I move as an unopposed motion—

When the late Senator Tom Naudé came to this Parliament, and specifically to this House, nearly 50 years ago, many of the members sitting here to-day had not yet been born, and most of the members sitting here to-day had not yet gone to school. Fifty years is a very long time in the life of any person, and next year Tom Naudé would have been a member of either of the Houses of this Parliament for fifty years. During his Parliamentary career he made a deep impression on all who came into contact with him. He was a friendly person with a keen sense of humour. But that is not all that he was. He was a man who applied himself with exceptional devotion to the tasks that were entrusted to him. The list appearing in this motion before the House is indeed a long and impressive one. Normally a Parliamentarian occupies one or, by way of exception, a few of the offices mentioned here. The late Senator Naudé occupied all of them, and he occupied these various positions with distinction. One is grateful to think that just recently, on the occasion of his 80th birthday, fitting tribute was paid to him from all sides for the long years of service which he had rendered. One is indeed grateful that it was granted him to know during his lifetime what his friends and his colleagues thought of him and how they appreciated his person and the work he had done.

We know that he was looking forward with almost child-like excitement to completing his 50 years of service to Parliament next year. But now it has been willed otherwise, and one is thankful under the circumstances that he was spared the long suffering that so often occurs in these cases. One is grateful that, seeing that Senator Naudé had been a member of this House for so many years, for 40 years, and had served it with such distinction, one can on this occasion pay tribute to him in this way. If the question should perhaps be asked what the secret was of the success of the public career of Tom Naudé, I think one can find the answer in the fact that whatever he did he did with complete self-surrender. Seeing him in church, seeing him in Parliament, seeing him at a rugby match, one noticed that everything he did he did with his whole heart in it. He lived in the fullest sense of the word and he enjoyed it. We accordingly wish to pay tribute to him on this occasion, and in our wishes and in our prayers we shall remember Mrs. Naudé and the children.

Mr. Speaker, it falls to my lot to have the privilege of seconding the motion of the hon. the Prime Minister from this side of the House. Sir, I want to say at once that it is no uncommon thing for us to have a motion of condolence at the passing of one of our colleagues but. Sir, it is never a formal occasion when we lose one of our number. From whatever side of this House one of us goes to join the great majority and there is a motion of condolence, it is no formal matter, because we have lost one of the people who sat here with us and whom we came to know so well. Sir, on this particular occasion I think our feeling is much more than even the normal feeling that one has on these occasions. I want to speak not only on behalf of the Official Opposition in this House but also in a personal capacity because from long before the time that I came to this House, only 21 years ago now, I knew the late Senator Naudé, and even in those days he was generally known as Uncle Tom to everyone on this side of the House as well as to hon. members on that side of the House. Sir, this was not only a term of respect and appreciation but it was a fundamental term of endearment because the late Senator Naudé meant something in our public life to, I think, everybody irrespective of their political allegiance and irrespective of what their calling may have been here in South Africa. Here, Sir, was a man who started as a very young man away from the big centres of civilization in those days when he first began his public life, his career in public life. He finished up as President of the Senate, and acted as State President at one time. Sir, I may say this in respect of the period when he acted as State President. I had the privilege of sitting beside him only last year at a big rugby match at Newlands in Cape Town, and I was astounded again at his intimate knowledge and appreciation not only of the finer points of the game, but of the people who were participating in what is probably our national pastime. It was a remarkable demonstration of versatility and the nimbleness of mind—the active mind— of the late Senator Naudé.

Sir, the history which we are narrating here this afternoon of the late Senator Naudé, is a history of achievement in respect of which I think it can be said that there are few men who had not only the qualities and the qualifications to serve with such admittedly great ability in so many different positions in out public life but who also did so without, as far as I am aware, making enemies amongst the generality of our people of all races and all kinds in South Africa. Sir, that a man may achieve eminence is undoubted; a man may achieve eminence in more than one sphere of life, but that a man can achieve eminence in so many spheres and still be able to say that he has in the broadest of broad language remained in harmony with the population is, I think, an amazing thing and a wonderful tribute to the memory of the late Senator Naudé. Sir, this is the man to whose memory we have come here to-day to pay tribute. From this side of the House and as far as I personally am concerned we say with the very deepest feeling of sincerity that this is our official “tot siens” in this House, in which he played such a prominent part, to the late Senator Naudé. To his widow and his family our sympathy and our understanding go out at this particular moment of time. We hope that they will be given the strength to be able to stand the sorrow which has come their way and that as time goes on their sorrow will be allayed and that, standing back in the fullness of time, they will come to appreciate even more the history of a great man, this great South African, with whose destiny they have been so closely linked.

Mr. Speaker, I second the motion.

Mr. Speaker, I would like to support the motion before the House and to associate myself with the eloquent tributes paid to the memory of our departed friend. Sir, it was my high privilege as a much younger man to be admitted to the society and friendship of the late Mr. Tom Naudé, more affectionately and almost universally known as Oom Tom, whom I have always esteemed, respected and greatly admired. I have known him personally and intimately for well over 40 years. Over these years there formed between us a friendship and a theme of common interest which bridged the gulf of a different generation. Over these years his friendship to me is something which I shall never forget. He had in unbounded measure the human quality of inspiring and maintaining a cordial and harmonious relationship with countless people, indeed with thousands of people, of different political views and outlooks. He was one of the kindliest and friendliest men I have ever known. He was an outstandingly good mixer, keenly interested in every aspect of life. He was full of fun and would spontaneously engage himself in all kinds of topics from grave to gay. He was a sportsman in every sense of the word and possessed a veritable fund of stories to suit almost any occasion. At the same time, however, as the hon. the Prime Minister has pointed out this afternoon, in absolute contrast to what I have just said, he was capable of producing a wise and mature judgment upon any public or private issue with which he was confronted. He had a massive common sense and a wise comprehension which made his advice invaluable whether in public conflict or in private embarrassment. He was a man of great versatility and of unswerving friendship. He will be sadly missed as the previous speakers have mentioned this afternoon.

The milestones of Tom Naudé’s public life, extending, as they did, over half a century embraced most of the fateful events of our country during that spectacular period. He, in his own quiet and inimitable way, has won for himself a place of the highest distinction in the history of our South African nation. Many men when they die after busy and active lives leave behind treasures of material wealth. Oom Tom banked his treasures in the hearts of his countless friends, who will always cherish his memory. To-day our thoughts go out to his devoted widow and to the members of his family. We fervently pray that the Almighty will sustain them all in this very sad period of affliction.

Mr. Speaker, I appreciate that I am permitted to say a personal word to pay a personal tribute to the late Tom Naudé, known as Oom Tom. When I came to this House in 1933, he was the Chief Whip of the party and shortly afterwards I became a provincial Whip. It was at his hands that I learnt about Parliament, and I have been ever grateful to him. If one has to say what was his great attribute and the reason for his great success, I should say it was the fact that whatever the position he graced, whether it was Chief Whip, Minister, Speaker, President of the Senate or Acting President of the Republic, he always remained Oom Tom. In other words, the greatness of the position never changed him. He was always the same to everybody he met and to his friends in particular. He was also a sociable man. He liked his fellow men and his fellow men liked him and therefore they were always very ready to meet him and pleased to see him. I also believe that he had an attribute which many of us could follow as an example, and that is that he was able to make firm friends across the party line, irrespective of politics. There are many people in this country who were firm friends of Oom Tom. Therefore, Mr. Speaker, I should like to pay the personal tribute of those who knew him as individuals, of whom few are left, to his widow and his family, not only as a tribute by the parties, but as a tribute by every individual in this House.

Motion agreed to unanimously, all the members standing.

Mr. Speaker, I move as an unopposed motion—

Agreed to.

Mr. Chairman, I move as an unopposed motion—

Vote 40, Loan Vote K and S.W.A. Vote 20 stand over.

As the Minister concerned is ill, he is unable to be present.

Motion put and agreed to.

Precedence given to Revenue Votes 42 to 45.

Revenue Vote 42,—Police, R85,590,000:

Mr. Chairman, I do not propose to ask for the privilege of the half hour because there is such a short time available for the discussion of this Vote and there are so many hon. members who wish to speak on it. This is the first occasion in the time that I have been privileged to serve in this House that we have had the latest report of the Department of Police available to us when we have discussed the Police Vote. This is a matter for commendation and something we are very pleased about. I may say that it is an excellent report. The statistics are well presented and very well broken down from the point of view of the discussion of this Vote in this House. Indeed, when one looks at this report from year to year, one could I suppose say that it is a kaleidoscope of South African life. It represents all the difficulties and all the events which make up our day to day life in this country. On page 12 of the report there is even a new word which has been imported into the English language. I refer to the “Bantuization” of various Departments. The hon. the Minister has in fact shown himself to be a keen student of the English language in previous debates during this Session.

I think the enormity of the task of the Police Force is shown in this report if you consider that members of the Police Force travelled over 107 million miles in motor vehicles during the past year and that more than 2 million cases were committed for trial. All these cases require not only the opening of a docket, but investigation and the collection of statements by the Police as well as the giving of evidence by the Police. The task of the Police involves rescues, the use of dogs and helicopters. It also involves fighting terrorists in Rhodesia, the extension of our activities on the borders and even the manning of the vessels which have to keep a watch on trawlers and other ships which enter our territorial waters, although this is not dealt with in the report as far as I am aware. Having regard to the enormity of their task and to the expansion of their duties, there are some aspects of the report which are somewhat disturbing.

In the first place, it seems that the establishment is below par. What is disturbing is that more than 1,500 policemen purchased their discharge from the service during the course of last year. Of these 1,249 were Whites. The question which arises in this connection is, why is this happening? Why is the establishment below par? Mostly, I think, the answer must relate to their conditions of service, that these are not what they ought to be. Let us consider their conditions of service. Is there anyone else in the Public Service who does not get paid overtime in the circumstances and under the conditions policemen have to operate? After having investigated a case, they have to go to court. If, for example, they come across a drunken driver, they may have to spend three hours of their time on pure investigation and if they come off duty at five o’clock in the morning they have to be in court by nine o’clock despite the fact that it falls within their off-duty time. Yet they do not get paid for it. This is an example of the conditions policemen have to work under. The S.A. Police have to investigate traffic offences even if the local authority traffic police may be dealing with it. In short, I think the S.A. Police are overtaxed in their duties and this report indicates the respects in which they are overtaxed.

Take, for example, the crime of violence. In paragraph 5 of the report, hon. members will see that 3,799 people were committed to trial for murder. In 1,256 cases of apparent murder those responsible for it remain undetected. Of the 3,799 committed for trial 2,647 were acquitted. This is according to the report. Unless there is some other explanation for it, prima facie it seems that the Police need more time to concentrate on the investigations of the more serious types of crime against society and that less of their time should be taken up by other matters, especially those matters I am going to mention now. The report indicates that during the past year Police had to investigate and had to give evidence in court about 690,296 cases relating to curfew and pass offences, an increase over the previous year of some 60,000. Everyone of these cases have to be investigated by the Police irrespective of whether an official of the Department of Bantu Administration brings them in or reports them. In view of the large number of serious offences which the Police seem not to have been able to give their fullest attention …

Why do you say that? They might have been found guilty of culpable homicide.

They might have been, but when something like half of those charged were acquitted and when something like 1,249 cases remain undetected, then I suggest … The hon. the Deputy Minister may not have practised as an advocate although he carries that title, but he ought to know that a lot of people are acquitted, certainly. But how many are acquitted? When the Police have completed their docket and the Attorney-General decides this is a prima facie case many are still acquitted because of lack of a proper or incomplete investigation. And when one considers that the Police have to deal with about 700,000 pass offences, it is not surprising that they have no time to investigate all these crimes sufficiently. Surely, some other body could deal with these matters? Take, for instance, the question of traffic offences. Why do members of the S.A. Police have to investigate, e.g. take measurements, go round and collect statements and make up a docket, in respect of every single traffic accident that occurs? Surely local authorities and provincial authorities could deal with that?

There are many disturbing features about the conditions members of the force have to work under. Having regard to their conditions of service, the amount of work members of the S.A. Police have to do is quite fantastic. For that the whole country owes them a debt of gratitude. If we look at the Estimates we find that the emoluments of members of the S.A. Police are assessed in the most extraordinary way. For a constable up to a lieutenant the maximum is R3.000 per annum. Therefore, you can have a constable who earns more on account of the fact that he has been in the service longer than his station commander who is a warrant officer or a lieutenant. Sir, this does not seem to accord with normal practices; it does not make sense and does not provide the incentive that normally goes with promotions. The housing conditions of members of the S.A. Police will be dealt with by other hon. members who have made a greater study of it.

I should like to refer the hon. the Minister to page 12 of the report and ask him why there is such a disparity. There under the heading “Buildings” it is stated that—

Surely, Sir, this is a most serious state of affairs. Why is it that so little has been voted for the current year for so important a service as this? Having regard to the conditions of service and having regard to the scales of pay of members of the Police Force, I would have thought that something more could have been done in respect of housing. The Railway Administration does it and also the Prisons Department. Why cannot the same be done for the Police?

My time has expired and consequently I can only express the hope that we shall get some sort of explanation from the hon. the Minister. Of course, he will still hear a lot of argument about this from other hon. members on this side and we hope we shall get down to it and that the Minister will tell us why, in fact, so little has to be voted when so much is apparently needed. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, it is not often that one can agree with the hon. member for Durban (North) on so many points. I want to associate myself with certain aspects he raised on this Vote. We on this side of the House also want to congratulate the Department on the up to date report of the Department of Police and on the fact that it has been tabled. We want to go further than that and also express our gratitude for the way in which this report has been drawn up and for the work it reflects. Then I want to associate myself with the statement of the hon. member for Durban (North) that this report, when one analyses its figures, gives a very striking picture of the scope and the nature of the work of the Police. We realize what these men have to do. We realize that they are the men who have to patrol the streets, who have to patrol outlaying districts and who are guarding our borders. They combat crime from day to day, not crime as it used to exist many years ago, but crime which has kept up with technological developments of recent years. They also have to deal with more sophisticated crimes, with espionage and forgery and various other forms of crime. Because this is so, we should like to learn from the Minister, since this report gives us a picture of the activities of our policemen, whether he does not want to give us a more comprehensive picture —the public outside is also waiting for this—of the activities of these men and of the services they are rendering on our borders? I think not only the members of this House, but also the public outside would like to have a more complete picture of what these men are doing there and to what things they are exposed. It seems to me that because the Police Force is so successful we are beginning to take some things for granted. When one reads through this report, as the hon. member for Durban (North) also said, one is struck by the exceptional achievements of these men. But because of these very achievements the public is beginning to take them for granted as achievement follows achievement. We must have regard to the fact that we do not have a Police Force, which in numerical relation to our population, is stronger than those of other countries, when we have regard to the fact that in countries such as England and Wales, they have 1.6 policemen per 1,000 of the population, that New Zealand has 1.02 policemen per 1,000, that New South Wales has 1.04 policemen per 1,000 of the population, that the United States have 2 policemen per 1,000 of the population, and that we have Ï.79, ours is a perfectly normal ratio. Ours nevertheless is a Force that has to serve a very heterogeneous population over vast distances and that has to combat not only ordinary crime as the Forces in those countries do, but also communistic infiltration and the activities of terrorists on our borders. Only when we have regard to all these things do we realize how great the achievements of these men are.

I want to associate myself with the statement of the hon. member for Durban (North) with regard to overtime. However, I should like to point out something else and something more positive, and that is that a member of the Police Force is a man who is always on duty 24 hours a day. They are the men who are pre-eminently exposed to temptation and provocation. Therefore, when one checks on the percentage of convictions of policemen on charges such as assault for instance, it strikes one that less than 1 per cent of Police Force members have been so convicted. This is an exceptional achievement on the part of these people who are subject to things like this and who constantly have the spotlight on every mistake they make.

I also want to associate myself with the statement of the hon. member for Durban (North) with regard to certain conditions of service. I particularly want to emphasize that the problem which is being experienced, especially in the rural areas, is that the newly married members of the Police Force are transferred. Of course, it is also sound policy not to have a policeman stationed at the same place for ever, precisely because of their working conditions. Such a policeman purchases his discharge from the service or he resigns, because housing he should like to have for his family is not always available at the place to which he is transferred. This is one of the most pressing problems in the Force and especially, in my experience, in the rural areas. At certain centres, such as Welkom, for example, we have excellent and well-appointed quarters, but at smaller places this is a bottleneck.

Before my time expires, I should like to raise another aspect to which reference is made on page 4 of the Report. Here I notice the exceptional keenness of these people to make use of bursaries for further academic training. Under the heading “Academic Training” one reads that this is borne out by the fact that there were 75 applications for the 10 bursaries granted this year. If these men are so eager and so keen, I want to make a plea to the hon. the Minister for these bursaries to be increased in number for people who want to make use of them. In various other departments and control boards we find the phenomenon that money which is available for bursaries is not taken up, whereas here we have the phenomenon that the number of applications exceeded the available bursaries by 700 per cent. Therefore I should like to make the plea to the hon. the Minister that this system of bursaries, which is proving to be so popular, should be extended.

Another statement made by the hon. member for Durban (North) was that the Police were wasting their time on what he called technical offences, but the irony of the matter is that it is in fact these so-called technical offences which, potentially, can lead to the serious crimes to which the hon. member wants the Police to devote their attention. Recently we had a question here from the hon. member for Orange Grove who wanted to know what the Police were doing in connection with handbag thefts or snatchings in Johannesburg. In his reply the Minister pointed out that this type of crime was being committed by loafers and vagrants and that these were the very people against whom the Police were taking strict action as regards these so-called technical offences as they were the ones who were doing this kind of thing. And then hon. members opposite ask what the Police are doing in connection with this matter. The question was put: If nothing is being done, why is nothing being done? The reply was that more intensive patrolling was being done for the very reason of restricting these people. They are not such innocent people who commit only minor, technical offences. Many of these offences we have to deal with, include ones relating to the presence of prohibited immigrants. Therefore the measures which are being taken do not relate only to the question of solving crimes but also to the question of the prevention of crime, and that is what is indicated by those figures. If we do not do this, we shall soon enough hear from that side of this House: The Police are failing in their duty.

After having brought these few matters to the attention of the hon. the Minister, I should like to touch on a local matter in conclusion. I want to express to the Minister my gratitude for the provision which has been made for the police station at Viljoenskroon. This is welcomed by all and we have been waiting for it for many years. I should like to use the last minute of my time to ask the hon. the Minister to give very serious consideration to the representations which have been made in respect of a police station at Bothaville, because functionally that police station is very unsuitable, and I should like to make the request that this matter should please be placed on the list of priorities. [Time expired.]

I also want to start off by complimenting the Department on producing their report timeously. This report starts off with a roll of honour and I want to express our respect for these men whose names appear on the roll of honour and our sympathy to their families for the loss of their breadwinners and dearly beloved ones who were killed in the course of duty. These men were not all Permanent Force members, as we also see that there were three reservists among them and that they included Whites and non-Whites. They were killed in the course of duty and I am sure the House would like to express sympathy with the families of those men.

Before I get on to the other troubles of the Police Force, I want to say a word about the Minister. When the Minister was still the Deputy Minister he showed great promise, and we were glad when he got promotion, but he started off rather unfortunately. We remember the speech about “some of my best friends are Jews”, and then there was the D’Oliveira incident, when he stopped a political meeting to announce that D’Oliveira had not been selected for the M.C.C. Team; and then finally we had his exhibition here in this House when the hon. member for Durban (North) raised the question of the deaths of the prisoners in the police van. I must say that the reaction of the Minister was a most remarkable one. We never expected it from him. Why the Minister should take such exception I do not know. He started off by saying that the matter had been raised purely for political reasons by the hon. member for Durban (North) in competition with the hon. member for Houghton and he said that the hon. member should not show such disinterest in the country’s interests abroad. He said that the matter had only been raised to embarrass our country; that merely by raising the matter in this House we were embarrassing this country abroad. Sir, nothing could have done our country more good than the raising of this matter in this House. Sir, the tragic death of those prisoners was already world news. The whole world knew about those tragic deaths, in respect of which we all expressed our regret. The world knew of the court case; the world read the remarks of the judge, so we were not bringing anything to the notice of the world that they did not already know about, and the best thing that could have happened in the interests of this country was the fact that the Opposition raised this matter in this assembly for discussion. It showed the rest of the world that this democratic Parliament takes an interest in and protects the rights not only of the Whites but of all the other groups in this country. Sir, if white prisoners had been involved and the matter had been raised in the House, the Minister would have taken no exception to it at all, but the fact that non-Whites were involved caused him to express his displeasure. Why is he so touchy when matters affecting the interests of the non-Whites are raised? Sir, it is not only we on this side who objected to his attitude; he was criticized, as he knows very well, by his own Press which pointed out that it was the duty of the Opposition to raise matters of this nature. We shall continue to raise matters of this nature when necessary; we shall not be intimidated by the Minister or any other member on the other side. A matter of this importance to the Government would have been raised in Parliament if it had happened in any other country and the Minister would have been called upon to give an account. Why should the position be different in this Parliament? What did the hon. the Minister do? All he did was to do what the judge said the police witnesses had done: They gave an explanation but they gave no excuses.

You are being very unfair to the Minister.

His explanation was that so many prisoners had to be conveyed; that they had to travel so many miles; that so many policemen were involved. The Minister said that there were enough vehicles; it was just unfortunate that on that day large numbers of vehicles were out of commission. But that is not the point, Sir. If the vehicles were out of commission those prisoners should not have been conveyed. The Minister said that he had issued an instruction that they were not to be conveyed. Obviously his instruction was ignored. The Minister has appointed a commission to go into this question and we want to know whether he can give us any progress report at this stage and tell us what that commission has done.

Sir, there is another matter that I want to raise in regard to public opinion abroad. In yesterday’s Tribune you will see that there is a report to the effect that the chairman of the Durban branch of a Coloured political party, a Mr. Le Roux, has complained that he has been visited several times during the past week by the Security Police. This matter of the Security Police interfering with members of non-white political parties not favourably disposed towards the Government was raised here last year by the hon. member for Karoo. Reports of this kind frequently appear, and these reports do our country no good abroad either. Therefore it is our duty to raise the matter here and to ask the Minister whether his Security Police are interfering unnecessarily with non-white politicians whose parties are opposed to the policies of the Government? The Minister has no doubt seen this report, and I shall be glad if he will tell us in his reply whether this in fact has been happening; whether the police have been interfering with these Coloured politicians in Durban and, if so, why? With regard to the Police themselves I want to mention that I have raised the question of the Police Force in the Transkei every year and I want to do so again now. I do not have the time to go through the whole case in their favour, but the hon. the Minister will know that I have complained that the Police in the Transkei are being discriminated against in that they do not receive the allowances civil servants receive. I want to say that this is most unfair.

You were wrong last year and you are wrong again.

Why was I wrong?

Civil servants in the Transkei do not receive allowances.

Of course they do. What is the hon. the Minister talking about? I have given him all the figures. Civil servants receive up to R70 in the case of a senior civil servant which civil servants in other parts of the country do not receive. It is a special Transkei allowance. When I served on a Select Committee I found out that civil servants do not only receive an allowance in the Transkei but also if they work in any territorial area and are serving territorial authorities. But the Police, the Post Office and the Railway employees in that area do not receive the allowance. The civil servants do, and my complaint is that there should not be discrimination against other branches of the service, namely the railwaymen, the Post Office and the Police Force. The Police Force are stationed in outlying places and are not as well situated as ordinary civil servants who receive allowances are. The Police Force in the rest of South Africa also serve in isolated spots, but in these isolated spots there are white farmers and the police have some social contact. White people are leaving the Transkei more and more, however. In the rural areas there are very few white traders left, and the policemen find that their amenities and the social activities they are used to are going. They can no longer take part in sport, which they used to enjoy, because of the dwindling number of the white people. I will be glad if the hon. the Minister will tell me why I am wrong in saying that the Police do not receive these allowances, and I will be glad to hear if the Government is going to change its attitude towards policemen and will start paying them allowances too. This dissatisfaction amongst policemen does not only apply to the Transkei, but they are dissatisfied about their conditions. The hon. member for Johannesburg (North) has referred to the question of their housing. We know that most of the Prisons Department personnel and members of the Defence Force are housed by the Government, but in the Police Force it is not so. We know that members of the Police Force find it difficult to obtain housing loans. We know that they can obtain hundred per cent loans but then they have to repay these loans to the building societies. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, there is an important matter which I want to raise with the hon. the Minister before I reply to what the hon. member for Transkei said.

As the representative of an area which stretches to the Kunene River which lies on the border of Angola, I should like to say a few words about the terrorist threat there. We are all, of course, interested in what goes on on our borders and further to the north, and it goes without saying that the farmers living in those remote parts are more worried about what is going on there than other people are. All that we know about events there is what we read now and then in a brief newspaper report. I would consequently appreciate it if the hon. the Minister would give us more information about that matter, with due consideration, of course, for the security of the people there and of the country in general. We want to know, for example, whether the hon. the Minister has sufficient men there, how they are trained and whether they are specially trained for that purpose. A short while ago we read that horses were being used there in police manoeuvres and I should like to know whether this is true and whether it can be done efficiently. Something which is very important and which we should like to know is whether there is any way in which the public in South-West Africa can contribute to that effort. I want to give the hon. the Minister the assurance that he can count on the wholehearted support of the entire South-West Africa public if he should need anything in that connection. I can inform hon. members that the terrain there in the North is probably of the most difficult that there is, and that the area is altogether a morass, particularly during the summer months, from November onwards. There is also impenetrable bushveld, so much so that the patrols there must endure the greatest hardships. Because this is so and because we realize that the men there in the North are risking their lives so that we can live safely here, I should now like to appeal to all charitable organizations in South-West Africa to devote a part of their time to collecting funds to provide those comforts which, of necessity, cannot be supplied to these men by the Government. I am thinking particularly—and I want to say this now, because it is the last chance I will get before we adjourn—of the Christmas and New Year ahead, and I should like to appeal to those bodies and organizations to make these comforts available in good time. The police station in Windhoek has the necessary transport and can be regarded as the chief contact point through which these organizations can operate in connection with these matters. I take it that the hon. the Minister will have no objection if the head office is at the disposal of these bodies. I should therefore be glad, having thus sketched the position, if the hon. the Minister could perhaps give us some reassuring answers in connection with the position in the North.

In connection with the accusation against the hon. the Minister by the hon. member for Transkei, in respect of the actions of the police and the death of prisoners in a police van, I just want to mention that I was in the House and it was my observation that the hon. the Minister accused the Opposition and the hon. member for Houghton of politically-motivated conduct, not because they raised the matter here, but because of the way in which they raised it. The hon. Opposition used the incident for an attack on the Department instead of using their time to express their gratitude for the praiseworthy action of the hon. Minister and his Department, who, immediately after it had occurred, brought the matter directly to court without a preparatory examination and immediately appointed a commission of inquiry, with the Chief Magistrate as chairman, to put the matter right at once. Instead of that the hon. Opposition attacked the hon. the Minister as if it had all been done wilfully. As the hon. member said, the matter was already before the court and was not submitted to us for our information. Everything was thrashed out in court where the facts were presented. The judge has already given his judgment and expressed his criticism. The necessary steps have also been taken. It was because of the way in which things were done here that the hon. the Minister naturally reacted by saying that the matter had been raised for political purposes.

In the few minutes at my disposal I also want to express my gratitude and appreciation for the competent way in which the police are dealing with matters in South-West Africa. It is a very large area with a small population and the Police work under difficult circumstances. We also want to express gratitude for the way in which they do their job. I just want to mention that South-West Africa is in the fortunate position of having accommodation available for almost all the members of the Police Force.

Mr. Chairman, I wish to follow further along the line of the hon. member for Omaruru, not only in regard to the Police serving on the borders of Angola, but also the Police serving in Rhodesia and elsewhere where there is terrorist danger or terrorist infiltration. My information is that the training and the facilities which are provided for the men who are on that duty, are good. But I do not believe that it should be up to charitable organizations, such as the hon. member for Omaruru mentioned, to provide the facilities to counteract the difficulties of the service that the people are doing there. I would like to ask the hon. the Minister, if he could tell us, what the allowances are which are paid and what privileges or benefits are granted in order to make up for the difficult conditions under which those policemen work. These policemen are guarding our safety in South Africa and are protecting us just as soldiers protect their country in times of war. I believe we are not paying enough attention to that group of young South Africans on whom much of our safety and the safety of the country depend.

I want to refer, for instance, to the aspect of compensation. I have made inquiries and I have been informed that if a policeman is injured or killed on duty, irrespective of where that may take place, he is protected under the Workmen’s Compensation Act. In case of death, that means that there is paid two months’ normal pay, or R300, whichever is the greater, plus 40 per cent of the normal pension which would then be due to that person if he were injured on duty. These are mainly younger men and at that stage of their service their pension would be very small if they were to retire. I believe that 40 per cent of pension plus two months’ pay, for death on service, is not the sort of compensation which South Africa owes to people serving in the field. If a soldier is injured or killed on duty, he falls under the provisions of the Military Pension Act. The provisions of that Act are very much more generous. I want to plead with the hon. the Minister to consider placing policemen on active service on the same footing in regard to compensation as soldiers who are on active service, defending the country. I also plead with the hon. the Minister to make the allowances and privileges granted to these men some compensation for the danger and discomfort which they suffer. I believe that certain facilities have been improved; paraffin refrigerators, and so on have been provided. However, unfortunately an offer of free beer was refused because it was not regarded as being in their interests. I think we have grown out of that Mother Grundy stage and I think that that approach is something which is not in keeping with the responsibilities which these men carry.

I want to pass on to another matter and it is that of pensioners who have retired from the Police Force prior to the date on which they were able to participate in the medical benefits of the normal serving policemen. I think the date was 1964. Those who retire subsequently may continue to contribute and to enjoy the protection against illness, whereas that small band who retired prior to that date, are denied this privilege. I realize that this is a question of actuaries and of a fund which calculates its liabilities, but I believe that the number of pensioners affected is so small and this hardship is so real that the State should subsidize the Medical Aid Fund, if necessary, in order to enable it to include that small group and give them protection. It would come to a very small amount, but it would be an additional recompense to people who have given their lives in service to law and order and to security in South Africa. I also believe that the amount of subsidy required would not be a great burden on the taxpayers as a whole. So, I plead again with the hon. the Minister to investigate whether there is not some method by which these pensioners can be brought into the scheme.

In the moment or two left, I should like to ask the hon. the Minister to give some information on a local issue. That is that of the new Police Headquarters in Durban. I should like to know about the progress on the building and the anticipated date of completion of the new headquarters at Old Fort Road together with the ancillary services. The hon. the Minister knows the present position. A block of flats has been taken over for temporary housing. There are a number of suburban police stations which are due to be closed down and which will be centralized in the new headquarters. Centralization has tremendous advantages, but there are disadvantages involved. I am interested to know, firstly, when the new headquarters will be established; and flowing from that, when and at what pace the closing down of other police stations in Durban is likely to take place. Because I believe that when that happens, we will have to do something either to replace the old “bobby on the beat” or to have some method of communication which will bring the public into closet communication with one centralized police station. If there is trouble at any rush period, the vehicular police will be unable to move through the traffic jam to get to a trouble spot quickly. A great deal of planning will be needed to ensure not only that there are sufficient patrols, but that they are so stationed that they are not going to be cut off from where they are required in any emergency. I do not believe that the policeman in a van can ever replace the “bobby on the beat” when it comes to local confidence of the public in the Police Force. I realize the problems and the difficulties. But I do believe that in a heavily built up area, such as the centre of a city, such as my own constituency, there must be a certain number of policemen on the ground, going around amongst the people, where they can bring about the feeling that “here is law and order right amongst us”, and not a van which they see passing by.

While on that, Mr. Chairman, I feel that something must be done about the manner of that passing by. If one hears the tyres squealing on police vans and one thinks of what some of the drivers are doing to the vehicles and to safety, it makes one shiver. One can imagine that if there is an emergency, they must take chances. But when they are going to investigate a normal crime, there is no need for some of this dangerous driving which one sees. I think the accident rate will bear it out. There seems to be some sort of competition to see who can make the loudest noise with the tyres, taking a corner on two wheels. This is one aspect of the vehicular patrols which I think is going to require some attention. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, I also want to express my gratitude to the South African Police for what they are doing on all fronts to preserve the peace and quiet which we enjoy. The peace and quiet which we enjoy in this country are, in the first place, attributable to a strong government being in charge of affairs, and in the second place, to a strong arm of the law. I think that to-day we can pay no better tribute to the South African Police than was paid to them in the following words by the poet G. A. Watermeyer (translation)—

We are the watchers on the tower. Raising ramparts in the crisis hour;

We are the men who, weaned of fear.

Our strength against all odds must bear.

Our blood among familiar stones must weave Our last farewells before we leave.

We are the bit that curbs all crime, A child’s street guide at crossing time, We are the order—we are the law The eye that His Great Visions draw;

We are the buffalo whose crouched head Turns back hordes in sudden dread.

I think that, particularly during the recent period of terrorism, we can truly say that the S.A. Police are the “buffalo whose crouched head turns back hordes in sudden dread”.

The S.A. Police report points to an unbelievable diversity and mass of investigations, prosecutions and convictions. It goes without saying that in the course of the investigations involved, the police must have been exposed to a tremendous amount of temptation. In my opinion it speaks volumes that, in the course of these investigations and with the great amount of work which has to be handled, only 33 white policemen were dismissed out of a total of more than 16,000. In my opinion this is a remarkable achievement for the report year concerned.

There is a tendency in the whole Western world, and specifically in America, towards what the Americans call polarization. Crime groups, leftists and vandalists, polarize to one side and, in underhand ways, present the Police as supreme dictators, persecutors and sadists. When the police have to act harshly, use is made of every opportunity to make them pay for this. Charges of crimes as serious as murder are made against them in circumstances which do not justify this. In America, for example, this tendency causes the police to polarize to the right. One finds to an increasing extent that those two poles are very hostile to each other and act accordingly. So serious have the onslaughts of the leftists become that throughout America, on a national scale, so-called police committees have been established among the general public, with, as their slogan “support your local police committees”. They assist with evidence in defence of the police. Where a policeman is unlawfully charged, funds are employed to assist in his defence, etc. The question now is: Is it desirable for us to have this polarization in the Republic as well? Is it in the country’s interest that our police should also, to an increasing extent, be judged as a persecuted, sadistic group? I think that the reply on both sides of this House is that we do not want this. I do not think that we can infer from the actions of any of the groups on both sides of the House that this is what is wanted. But I think that we should most certainly act more judiciously, not because we ourselves want this kind of thing, but so that our actions cannot be exploited by leftists and fellow-travellers. With all due respect and with a full sense of responsibility I want to say that something like the flash debate which was called for here a few weeks ago, could also be seized upon by such people in their efforts to cast suspicion on the Police; I am not speaking of the merits of the case; it is most certainly a democratic Opposition’s duty to expose, in a responsible way, any shortcomings in the police or in the Government, but to request a flash debate about such a matter is to dramatize it more than it deserves and to afford the leftists unnecessary ammunition.

In addition, I want to come to the matter which has already been mentioned by an hon. member on this side of the House, and I want to elaborate on it. I want to deal with the Police Comfort Fund. This is a fund which had its origins in the Second World War, but it is a fund which is now chiefly used for the police serving on our borders, whether internally or externally. I feel at liberty to say something about this fund because my own constituency has set a very good example in this connection. My constituency enthusiastically collected money for the fund and handed over a large amount to the Commissioner of Police, as well as making a large donation to the Army and to the Portuguese fighters. I want to plead here to-day for each community to collect for the fund on an organized basis. It is not a question here of feeling that the Government is not creating the necessary facilities there; it is a question of local communities, by contributing to this fund, indicating to the police that we are infused with the highest admiration and gratitude for the selfless service which our boys are doing under difficult circumstances in far-off posts.

The hon. member for Kroonstad quoted a poem here. I want to congratulate him on reading it out because I think it is most applicable and appropriate as far as the South African Police are concerned. I will be excused, I think, if I say that I am slightly biased towards the police, because I speak as an old officer of the S.A. Police and I have always been proud of having been one. At the outset I should like to congratulate the hon. the Minister on his appointment as Minister of Police. I am quite certain that he will do his best for the Force as a whole and for the public in general. It is my great pleasure to thank the Commissioner of Police, his officers, his N.C.O.S and his men, as well as the Police Reservists, both white and non-white, for the law and order they have maintained during the past year and for the wonderful service they have rendered to South Africa. I notice that during the past year 16 members of the Force lost their lives during the execution of their duty. We salute them in passing and we sympathize with their dependants, but we hope that those dependants will be looked after in the way they should be looked after. I also notice that no fewer than 992 members of the Force were decorated, a very large number of them for long and devoted service, and we on this side of the House want to congratulate them on their service. I also notice that 33 Whites and 370 non-Whites were dismissed, which is an exceedingly low percentage in a force of nearly 31,000 men. But one thing I am glad of. It does show, very often contrary to public opinion, that discipline in the Police Force is very strictly enforced.

Then I think of the men on our borders, who guard the borders for us. Several of them have already given up their lives. It is said that no man can show greater love for his country than when he is prepared to give up his life. We can say that they died that we may live. But they do not only face the bullets of terrorists. There are other annoying things up there in the bush. It is thick bush in the Rhodesian teak section, and the mopani section of South-West Africa. There are snakes, scorpions, elephants, buffaloes, crocodiles in the rivers, and lions, but the most annoying is the smallest, the mosquito and the mopani fly, which thinks nothing of sitting three deep on one’s bare arm. I mention this because I hope that they look after not only the pleasurable side of comforts but also that side of it, because when you are in the bush there and you are tormented by these things, you must have something to ward them off. I think of the two men, a white warrant officer and a non-white, who were shot by a terrorist on a boat on the Zambezi. They both recovered from their wounds, but the warrant officer was buried last week as the result of his wounds, and the non-white, I believe, has lost his sight. It is these things that make us think of the serious job these men are doing in protecting our borders. The hon. member for Omaruru mentioned gifts and comforts. They should have all the comforts we can give them, but I also say, as the hon. member for Durban (Point) said, that that is something for the Department to do. The taxpayer must pay for that. We must not ask for charity as far as that is concerned.

Then there are a few small matters I wish to raise to make the policeman’s lot a happier one. The one is the national housing loans they are given to buy homes. I am told that a constable with nine years’ service is given R5,600. A lieutenant with 20 years’ service was given R6,500. Loans normally vary from R3,000 to R5,400. I wonder whether the Minister can tell me where anyone can buy a decent house in a decent locality at that figure. Surely even a policeman has pride and likes to live in a decent area. With that amount available they have to turn towards sub-economic schemes, which I think, in view of the service they render the country, is altogether out of the question. The South African Police Provident Fund has millions on hand. They possess large stocks of Government bonds and other similar stocks. They have, I think, over R5 million out on bond. Is it not possible to build flats and to let those flats at a reasonable rental to our policemen? Why must members of the Force live miles and miles away from their work and then have to come back, as mentioned here by one member, after he has been on night duty, to attend court at 11 o’clock the next morning? Sir, this is something which should receive very serious consideration. As far as flats are concerned, I want to ask whether it would not be possible to allow members of the Force to buy flats in blocks of flats? After all, the S.A. Police Provident Fund belongs to the men and they should get the benefit of it. Then, Sir, there is the question of free uniforms. Year after year we harp on this matter. Members of the Department of Defence and of sister services are given free uniforms. Why not give members of the South African Police two free uniforms a year? I notice that provision is made in the Estimates for R193,000 for clothing allowances. I do not know whether this is to clothe police reservists or not; it would be interesting to know what this large amount is for. Then there is the question of maternity grants. This maternity grant of R10 has been given for years and years. Prices have gone up, even in this field. I notice that one man had to pay no less than R66 for the hospitalization of his wife and R24 for medical expenses, a total of R90. That is what he had to pay for an ordinary confinement without complications. Surely confinement expenses should be treated as ordinary medical expenses. After all, even policemen are entitled to families. I believe that in the case of complicated confinements it is left to the Public Service Commission to decide what proportion of the confinement costs they would pay and that each case is treated on its merits. Then there is another matter which has already been mentioned by a previous speaker and that is the question of ordinary salary scales. I think it is wrong that when a man gets promotion he is not given a higher salary scale. We have constables, second-class sergeants, first-class sergeants, warrant officers and lieutenants, to mention a few of the ranks, all on the same scale. Fancy a constable who has no ambition and who stays for years in this rank drawing a larger salary than his lieutenant! [Time expired.]

All of us on this side of the House appreciate the words which the hon. member, who has just resumed his seat, addressed to the hon. the Minister and our Police Force; we appreciate this. Sir, when my hon. Leader was still Minister of Justice he had the following to say at a celebration of the 50th anniversary of the South African Police Force—

Sir, on this path which we, as a community in South Africa, are following, I believe that we shall do everything in our power to maintain these fine aims in the years ahead, and I have no doubt that the South African Police Force will also, in the years ahead, as in past years, endeavour to keep South Africa the peaceful country it has been, and still is, to-day. But one wonders whether people who are at times so sceptical and so unnecessarily critical, directly or by implication, have ever considered in what difficult circumstances the South African Policeman finds himself in this modern world of to-day. What are the conditions in the modern world in which we live, under which the South African Policeman must maintain law and order to-day? It would certainly be childish for us to argue that the international trend of superficialization, decay and agitation has not left its dreadful mark on South African society. It is this type of decay which is referred to in certain circles as an aspect of the permissive society. It is those international trends which have, unfortunately, also left their dreadful mark here and there on South African society. But, apart from these international trends, our South African Police Force is to-day, as in the past, also faced with particular conditions which are, in fact, unique to South Africa, and I just want to refer to a few of them. In the last two decades the South African population, which had previously been known to a large extent as a rural population, became urbanized. This happened within two decades, two very short decades, because a decade in the life of a nation is like a day in the life of an individual. It is general knowledge that when, virtually overnight, one has a large population shift, this is accompanied by the development of socioeconomic problems. There is also a second important difference in the task of our Police Force, and this is that as a result of the strong Government which we have to-day, and have had for the past 21 years, this State has experienced a greater industrial explosion and development than any modern state in the world. This has also resulted in a heaping together of people—actually an absence of decentralization—and the development of socio-economic problems which have not facilitated the task of our South African Police.

Sir, let me also refer to a third specific state of affairs with which our Police Force is faced—this is the fact that the present generation, and our Police Force, are being called upon to maintain, perpetuate and extend a 300 year-old pattern of living, and to continue to do so in the years ahead. There are forces which do not like this pattern of living that we are maintaining, extending and establishing here in South Africa. There are bodies and elements in the world, and individuals in South Africa, who want to destroy this pattern of living, and this makes the task of our South African Police Force much more difficult. Then there is also a fifth factor which is that, as a result of the multi-racial nature of our country, our various languages, cultures, habits and customs, our Police Force must carry out specialized tasks. The members of our Police Force must carry out very delicate tasks. On the one hand they are faced with primitive communities in out of the way places, and on the other hand with highly civilized communities. The South African Policeman is frequently called upon to handle delicate situations, and for those situations he must have special knowledge. It does not make his task easier; in many cases it makes it much more difficult. It is, therefore, not strange that even a newspaper such as the Rand Daily Mail has, on occasion, written, “South Africa is a country which must be one of the most difficult in the world to police”. The Cape Times also reacted to this and said—

Then there is also a sixth special matter which makes the task of the South African Police more difficult, and that is that their geographic area of operation has been extended. Through no fault of this Government, the South African Police have had to stand sentry along the Zambesi in order to protect civilization in Southern Africa. On this occasion we, as a community here in South Africa, can justifiably pay tribute to those who have already had to make big sacrifices while guarding all that we South Africans hold dear. One frequently asks oneself the question: Are we as South Africans aware of the big sacrifices which the South African Police Force must make, and of the great services and the great job of work which they must do there in the far north. Although it is no one’s plea to-day that the State should not honour its obligations to these men, I want to say it is up to every South African to give those men in the far north every tangible proof, at every possible opportunity, of their appreciation of the services they are rendering and of their contribution to the maintenance of civilization here in the southern corner of Africa. This fine mother country of ours can never allow those terrorists with their devilish plans to penetrate to the south. The South African Police stand between them and us. Since we can enjoy our sleep in peace, it remains our duty to furnish tangible proof, at every opportunity, of our gratitude to them for what they are doing, proof in the form of packages, edibles, fruit, etc. This is but scant evidence of our gratitude to a lot of young men who are prepared to offer their lives for their mother country here in the south. If we review the position prevailing here in South Africa, in contrast to conditions prevailing in other comparable Western countries, we can say that, in the first place, our position is attributable to a stable Government during the past 21 years. But we must remember that the Government could only maintain its stability with the help of our Public Servants, including members of our Police Force. Without their co-operation we could not have made a success of that. It is with their help that we have peace in this country to-day. Without being malicious we may look at other Western countries, countries which have made such a great contribution to our civilization here. We find it regrettable that J. Edgar Hoover, head of the F.B.I., has had to say the following—

[Time expired.]

I am sure we all agree with the hon. member for Port Elizabeth (Central) that the Police have to do a lot of dangerous work and that many of them act very courageously indeed. I also think it is absurd that we should overload our Police with duties in connection with this enormous number of statutory offences. This results in an intolerable burden being placed not only on the Police, but also on the prisons. For all the talk we have in this country, talk about law and order, it does not seem to have occurred to anybody within this Chamber that we have one of the largest average daily prison populations in the Western world —more than double, in absolute figures, of that of Great Britain with a population of 55 million against our estimated 19 million. A large percentage of our average daily prison population are people sent to gaol for statutory offences. I think the hon. the Minister, who has to carry the brunt of the tragic occurrence earlier this year when three prisoners died in a police van, should make known to his colleagues in Bantu Administration that an intolerable task is, in fact, being placed on the shoulders of our Police in trying to implement this system which has been imposed on this country as a result of the Government’s policy. I do not think any design for new police vans, or anything of that nature, will ever alter the fact that it is not going to be possible to transport prisoners backwards and forwards between gaols and Bantu commissioners’ courts without overcrowding. This has been the practice for many many years and this tragic occurrence only brought it to light. If one realizes that within the Johannesburg municipal district alone 700 Africans are being conveyed daily between gaols and Bantu commissioners’ courts, one can realize what sort of a task is facing our Police. I hope the hon. the Minister is not going to take any of this criticism personally, nor any one of his policemen. After all, some of my best friends are policemen. [Interjections.] Well, I have been waiting the whole Session to get that one in! Let me tell the hon. the Minister that very honestly. Before I leave this matter, I want to say to the Minister that I hope he is giving attention to the matter I have raised with him twice already, at one-monthly intervals, i.e. the question of ex gratia compensation to the widows of the three men who were suffocated to death in the police van. I hope he can tell us how much progress has been made in this matter.

Now I want to come to the question of arrests and detentions by the Police in terms of the Terrorism Act. I raised this matter under the Justice Vote and I stated then that I thought in certain respects the use of the very vast powers which the Minister and the Police have under the Terrorism Act was being abused. I have the gravest misgivings in this regard in the light of certain cases which have come to light already. I have mentioned before the case of the Rustenburg tribesmen. Originally they were arrested on a charge of alleged murder, following a tribal dispute. On one person an interim order was served preventing him from being interrogated by the Police and then, promptly, the charge of murder was withdrawn the following day and all these people were arrested under the Terrorism Act—a most extraordinary set of circumstances.

Then there is the question of the number of deaths which have occurred while people have been held by the Police incommunicado, as this Act allows them to do. As a matter of fact, there have been four such deaths already. Two of those were suicide, one of which is now subject to inquest proceedings. Here I may say that the evidence so far gives rise to much misgivings. Of one other it was stated that he died either of TB or pneumonia. I do not know why it should have been so difficult to decide which of the two it was. The fourth one, according to the official report, slipped on a piece of soap and fatally injured himself. I think it is imperative that under Acts like these, Acts which give tremendous powers to the Police, inter alia, to deny access to the courts, legal assistance, etc., the most narrow scrutiny by the Minister be constantly directed at the manner in which these powers are being exercised. No doubt the hon. the Minister has taken note of the remarks made by Judges when these cases served before them. One Judge, in the case of the Bukhubeng people, the Rustenburg case I have mentioned already, said that the court owed the public an explanation why this man was suddenly detained under the Terrorism Act and thereby removed from the jurisdiction of the court. “There is much room for abuse. Should not the Police urge that the whole matter be ventilated?” Should it not be the Minister of Police who should ventilate it? Anyhow, this is one thing which causes me grave concern, the fact that in the Mbindi case the Government settled for R3,000. This is a case where a person complained that he was tortured while being held under the Terrorism Act. Then there is the Francis case, an Indian who was held for something like 421 days, so I understand, in solitary confinement. He too was being held under the Terrorism Act without ever being charged with anything. As a matter of fact, he gave the most unsatisfactory evidence in the case in which he was called upon to give evidence. I understand he was not even properly cross-examined because his evidence was obviously irrelevant. When he complained that he was badly treated while under detention the Judge’s comment simply was that it was not the concern of the court. However, the prosecutor was meant to follow up this allegation. Also in this regard I should like to know what has been done.

There is the name of one officer which occurs with alarming regularity in all of these cases of alleged ill-treatment. I hope the hon. the Minister is aware of whom I am referring to; if not, I shall give the name to him because in practically every case involving the Special Branch and involving charges of ill-treatment the name of this man crops up over and over again. I should like to have some explanation, as the court in fact urged, and to which we are entitled.

I wonder whether it has occurred to the hon. the Minister that he should do something about trigger-happy Mr. Sam? This is the café owner who claims he has already shot dead eight people. The hon. the Minister in a reply to a question of mine said he shot two people dead. Several Africans and one white man that we know of were shot by this café owner. I know that under the Criminal Procedure Act anybody is entitled to arrest without warrant and indeed if somebody is resisting arrest he can be apparently shot dead in so doing without charges being laid against the man who shot him. However, the courts have held that one should not use any more force than is being used against one. I cannot understand how it is that this man gets away with case after case, that no charge is ever laid against him and that the Police apparently think it perfectly all right for Mr. Sam to continue to have the use of a weapon. This is a most extraordinary case. In every case the people whom he has shot, as far as I can understand from the newspaper reports, were people who have been fleeing from him. So his own life has evidently not been in danger. As far as we know, even if goods have been stolen, this is not a capital offence. Why this man should over and over again be allowed to take the law into his own hands without any repercussion, is quite beyond me.

After all, they were breaking in at his premises.

Well, then they flee. Can you then shoot them dead? If a child steals a banana and you cannot stop him, must you shoot him dead? What a lot of nonsense.

Shoot him.

Yes, it is a typical answer from the rear benches, “Skiet horn dood”. Anyway, those were three of the matters I wished to raise to the hon. the Minister.

I now want to also raise one other matter with the hon. the Minister, namely whether the Minister is satisfied that complete impartiality has been exercised by the Police with regard to student protests? I want to start at once by saying I pay the highest tribute to the Police Force in the Cape. I think they handled the recent student protests with the utmost good sense. There were no ugly incidents despite, I might say, considerable provocation from an M.P., who apparently was trying to encourage a certain gang of young people to attack the students who were protesting. But the Police themselves behaved in an exemplary fashion in the Cape. I want to know why the same impartiality could not have been displayed at the Rand during the recent protests? [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, I should like to reply to a few allegations which the hon. member for Houghton made. She spoke of the arrests in terms of the Terrorism Act. I think the hon. member for Houghton is aware of the fact that there are certain security measures embodied in that Act in respect of prisoners. Hon. members will remember that that subject was debated in this House. A report is sent to the Minister of Justice every three months. The Minister keeps abreast of what is happening to those people. I do not think that the hon. member’s criticism was justified. She quoted four cases. Two people committed suicide. It is, of course, extremely likely that those suicide attempts were attributable to a sense of guilt. As is often the case, those persons probably decided to take their own lives rather than give evidence against their companions who were also criminals. The other person died of tuberculosis. The way in which the hon. member for Houghton tried to suggest here that the doctors could not determine whether death was due to tuberculosis or to another disease is, in my humble opinion, beneath the dignity of this House. I am quite prepared to accept that that person died of tuberculosis, or whatever other disease. The other individual slipped on a cake of soap. The strangeness of this accident proves the truth of what took place there. If the police wanted to tell an untruth, it would have been much easier for them to think up a better story than that such a person had slipped on a cake of soap.

Then the hon. member also spoke of “trigger happy Mr. Sam”. As far as “trigger happy Mr. Sam” is concerned, I am altogether satisfied that if he in any way misused the weapons in his possession, the Police would already have confiscated them. But I think that the hon. member does not give sufficient consideration to the fact that every person is entitled to afford proper protection to his property. When burglars break in, and when he is possibly in danger of his life, I think it is quite justifiable to stop them by shooting them. In the last case to which, I think, the hon. member referred, the burglar was in fact, shot through the leg in order to foil an attempt at escape. When one begins a criminal career, when one breaks into a certain shop in order to steal, one does so fully at one’s own risk. Then burglars realize that there could possibly be an armed person inside such a shop. In my humble opinion people must of course not come along and complain, particularly not in Parliament, if they get hurt there.

Then the hon. member referred to the students. As far as the students are concerned, we also want to say to the Police that we admire their patience with this group of young people who, in my humble opinion, are incited by people from outside and also at times by politicians. I have found it quite striking that the first person who quickly went and held a meeting there was the hon. member for Houghton. If there is anything to complain about it is the fact that responsible politicians endorse such irresponsible actions by students.

I should like to congratulate the Commissioner of Police warmly on this fine Report which he has submitted. I want to refer to page 8, where reference is made to the arrest of Yuriy Loginov. In this case I really think that we may congratulate our Police, particularly the Security Police, on the arrest of this spy and on everything which resulted from that arrest. I really think this is an achievement which is, in fact, unequalled in the world. This is quite probably why it was specially mentioned in this Report. I also want to refer to the roll of honour which appears at the very beginning of this report. One bitterly regrets the fact that there is a roll of honour, because it actually lists people who have all died. But all these people have died as a result of the services they rendered to the State and in the course of their duties. I think that we are extremely grateful to these people. I want to say to their next of kin, whites and non-Whites, that we are particularly proud of this Police Force and of this roll of honour which is mentioned in this report.

Then, under the heading “Wastage”, I noticed that 33 people were dishonourably discharged from the service. If one bears in mind that there are more than 17,000 policemen, this means that there were fewer than .2 per cent of our Police Force who committed offences which entailed their discharge. It is, in fact, to the credit of the Force that such a small percentage of our policemen were discharged owing to offences.

On page 8 we find a reference to the quantity of dagga which was, one may almost say “harvested” by the Police last year. They confiscated about 3 million pounds of dagga. If one considers the fact that one of the greatest evils in the world to-day is the use of drugs in various forms, of which dagga is perhaps the worst, it is, in fact, a compliment to our country and to our Police Force that they obtained that large quantity of drugs in such an excellent fashion. In so doing they have protected our people from this evil.

On page 9 I find a reference to the work of our police dogs. There are several stories there which fill one with pride that that branch of our Police Force is being developed so strongly.

I should like to ask the hon. the Minister to give consideration to making greater use of Group B of the Police Reservists for patrol duties in the suburbs of our cities. Hon. members know that it is tremendously difficult for the Police, travelling around in police vans to patrol the streets, while it would be very easy if reservists were used. I am of the opinion that by those means we would be able to combat a tremendous amount of crime.

I should also like to ask the hon. the Minister that more financial encouragement be given for the obtaining of ordinary academic degrees in the Police Force. It is always an asset for a Force when people are trying to qualify themselves academically to a greater extent. Academic proficiency gives one a much wider view of life, a much greater knowledge of people and, in fact, makes one a better person. We are very proud of the fact that so many of our policemen, above and beyond their police exams, are devoting their energies to acquiring academic degrees. Perhaps the hon. the Minister could consider giving them sufficient financial compensation, and promoting those who obtain academic degrees.

I want to conclude by asking the youth of South Africa to join our Police Force. It is an adventurous life; it is a kind of life which the young people ought to find thrilling. One of the policemen said to me a short while ago that war breaks out about once in 20 years while a policeman is engaged in a constant war against crime. In the combating of crime a young man has the best opportunity of giving expression to his adventure lust. There is a particularly fine future in the Police Force. In the days when I was practising I met people who were ordinary sergeants. When I came to Parliament, several years later, those people were already colonels, captains and some of them even assistant commissioners. I want to say to the youth of South Africa that the combating of crime is the greatest service which our youth can render to their country and nation in peace-time.

Mr. Chairman, the hon. member for Prinshof has dealt with certain matters and he has made reference to the roll of honour which appears in the Report wherein 16 persons are listed. There are four other names to be added to this roll of honour. They are the police reservists who are mentioned later in the Report and who also lost their lives in the service of this country. I refer to them because I think the time has come that the hon. the Minister should deal with certain matters which will become rather more the occurrence than the exceptions in the future, if matters develop generally as they are throughout the world. I refer to the involvement of the civilian population in the activities of the Police Force, not in competition with the Police Force, but in conjunction with the Police Force. The hon. the Minister is aware that at the present time the Police are at liberty to call upon any citizen to assist them in effecting an arrest in dealing with the normal occurrences of crime. When a citizen refuses to assist the Police, he makes himself guilty of an offence. With the trend throughout the world at the present moment, with the development of planned and sponsored terrorist incursions into other countries, with the development of subversive activities throughout the world, the possible involvement of civilians in the activities of the Police Force, becomes more of a reality than it has been in the past. It was for this very reason that it was decided in 1960-’61 to form the Reserve Police Force. As I see from the Report, this force now consists of some 17,530 members, of whom four lost their lives during the course of this report year. In addition to the force of reservists, there are many other members of the public, who from time to time render services to the Police and who are called upon by the Police to render services. A few days ago we had the death of a member of the rescue team of the Mountain Club in the Cape when he was, as I believe, attempting, at the request of the Police, to retrieve the body of a person who had come to grief at Chapman’s Peak. People who will also be called upon from time to time in the future are the members of the newly-established National Sea Rescue Institute. That institute, which has been established by public spirited people of Cape Town, is well equipped to undertake hazardous and dangerous work along our coastline. More and more the nation will be involved in civil defence procedures which also have reference to the general maintenance of law and order. I believe that the public now should be reassured as to what the position is of the dependants, widows or children, of any persons who might lose their lives in rendering assistance in this manner. An assurance should also be given as to what is to happen to people who in assisting in this manner are disabled, either temporarily or permanently.

It is correct that of all the war pension codes used by the countries who were our allies during the last war, the code applied in our country is the best. It is the most satisfactory and the most realistic code. There is no question of flat rates. There is a basic rate of pension, but it takes into account, by means of supplementation, the earning potential of the person who is involved in the accident or who was killed. I do not need to go into the details at this stage, but it is a system of determination of pensions of persons losing their lives or becoming injured in the service of their country, which has worked satisfactorily and which has generally been accepted as satisfactory. It has been extended now by the hon. the Minister of Defence to the Citizen Force, the national servicemen, whilst on duty. I wonder whether the time has not come for the Minister to give consideration or whether the Minister has not himself perhaps already given consideration to the extension of this code to these other persons, including the Police Force, who are injured in the performance of the duties I have mentioned. If the hon. the Minister has not had an opportunity of doing so, I am sure it would bring considerable comfort and will be a considerable encouragement if the public in South Africa knew that there was a move towards a more realistic basis of compensation, should death intervene. People do not want to find themselves at the mercy of the Treasury as to what compensation should be paid to their dependants in the event of a fatal accident. One knows from one’s own experience that if these people are to be dealt with under the Workmen’s Compensation Act, and in terms of the procedure of the Workmen’s Compensation Act, the compensation will be very small indeed for most persons who were involved in these organizations whilst assisting the Police. As I have mentioned, the matter has come pertinently forward as a result of the unfortunate accident at Chapman’s Peak where Mr. Watt lost his life. I think it will be a matter of great consequence to the public generally, if they know that this particular problem is having the attention of the Minister.

Before I conclude, there is another question I should like to put to the hon. the Minister, and it is a question which has arisen directly from the Budget. I notice that despite the establishment of the Bureau for State Security there is no reduction; in fact, there is a slight increase in the provision for funds for secret services as far as the Police is concerned during the current year. Is it not so that some of these services will be taken over by the new Bureau or will the Police continue with their secret service activities? I believe this service is separate from the question of the detection of crime. The hon. the Minister will find the figure under paragraph E of his Vote.

Lastly, I notice that the amount in respect of the investigation of crime for this year is nearly double the amount it was for the last financial year. I wonder whether this has not been caused by what the Commissioner called in his Report “the extraneous duties” which descend upon the Police Force. It is quite startling to find that the Commissioner has found it necessary to report the following:

I am certain that this is possibly the reason why if anybody wants to know anything, and does not know where to get the answer, we are depending more and more in South Africa on the nearest policeman.

Mr. Chairman, I agree whole-heartedly with the hon. member who has just sat down as regards the payment of compensation to people who tender their services either voluntarily or when asked by the Police to do so for the purpose of carrying out certain work of a special nature or assisting the Police. In this connection I want to mention the incident at Chapman’s Peak, an incident which certainly came as a great shock to the whole country, and one is grateful for the fact that one still finds civilians of the calibre of the person who offered his services there and of the other members of the Mountain Club who tendered their assistance to the Police after they had been asked to do so in that particular case. I should like to lend my support to the hon. member as regards any representations he has made to the hon. the Minister in this connection.

I should like to come back to another aspect before dealing with my own matters, namely what was said by the hon. member for Houghton. The hon. member referred to a certain person with the Christian name of Sam as “trigger happy” Sam. To my mind this was a most unfortunate thing for the hon. member to have said, namely to drag into the discussions in this House the personal affairs of a civilian outside after the Police had investigated every case. These files are referred to the Attorney-General for decision, and in every case he found that this person had acted within the provisions of the law. We know there are cases in certain urban complexes where people are robbed time and again of everything they possess, so much so that they actually find themselves on the verge of bankruptcy as a result of these thefts. Should these people simply look on when their premises are broken into and should they first call the Police every time it happens? After all these people have the right to guard their properties in the first instance. Our law is quite clear, namely that a person has the right to protect his person and his personal property. We have no right to use firearms or any other weapons in our country arbitrarily, and our legislation is very strict in this regard. The public also knows that weapons may not be used arbitrarily. To my mind it is therefore quite unfair to refer reproachfully to this person as “trigger happy” Sam, and to ask what the position is going to be in future as regards this person and what the hon. the Minister and the Commissioner of Police are going to do in this connection. Does the hon. member want to wait for this person to be robbed to the point of bankruptcy or does she first want to wait until he has been murdered? He is entitled to do what he has done so far as long as he does not contravene the law. [Interjection.] One must actually refrain from commenting in stronger terms on allegations of this nature. When listening to this type of nonsense, certain questions arise which make one wonder.

In fact, I want to come back to a more positive matter and I want to refer to paragraph 4, page 2, of the annual report of the Commissioner of Police which deals with recruiting. The hon. the Minister and his Department realize, of course, the importance of the image the Police Force presents to the outside world. However, I want to stress one aspect of this image, namely in the sphere of sport. On behalf of all the members of the Police Force who participate in target shooting. I want to express my gratitude to the hon. the Minister and the Commissioner for the improved weapons they made available to these people during the past year. What I find important in this respect, is the fact that over 600 of South Africa’s marksmen participated in the national bisley which was held in Bloemfontein recently. The Police participated in this bisley as well, as they have been doing for many years. In earlier years, immediately before the last war, the Police team was one of the strongest teams to participate. In subsequent years, after the war, they did not always perform so well and there were many reasons for this, but after improved weapons and some of the best rifle-barrels had been made available to members of the Police team in recent years, the team performed so well that one of the policemen was runner-up in the grand championship. The reason why I mention this, is because of the comments which have been made in general. These comments were made by people from all over the country, from South-West Africa and even from Zambia who participate in this bisley. They said, inter alia, “One likes to see our policemen doing so well. We like to see that our policemen are capable of handling a weapon so well”. This is the aspect that is important, that our policemen, too, should take note of these comments, particularly when one considers the comments we had as regards the first team and the other teams of the Police Rugby Club in Pretoria. I do not think the Commissioner and the hon. the Minister always hear public opinion as we do, and how the achievements and actions of this nature by policemen affect the public. This is just as important as all the attempts made by the Police as regards recruiting and for this reason I want to express my sincere thanks to the Commissioner and the hon. the Minister on behalf of those people, in whom I have a personal interest, for all that has been done for them. I should also be glad if the hon. the Minister as well as the Commissioner would provide these people with all they need during the next few years in view of the fact that considerable changes are being considered in this sphere.

I also want to mention another aspect which strikes one in this annual report, namely the large number of policemen who buy their discharge from the Police Force. Together with this I want to tell the Committee what happens to a person when he joins the Police Force. My information is that a person with a matriculation certificate receives one year’s training at the Police College and that, if everything goes well with him in his career and after he has completed three years’ service, he may become a sergeant if he passes the necessary examinations. After a further two years’ service he may qualify for promotion to adjutant-officer, provided he has passed the necessary examinations. After he has served as an adjutant-officer for one year, he may qualify again to write the examination for promotion to the rank of officer. If he passes this examination and if posts are available, he may be promoted in course of time in accordance with his position on the promotion lists. Considering all the factors, the progress he makes cannot be regarded as slow and quite a number of these men have certainly reached the rank of officer within a period of 10 years. I have wondered, however, particularly when one considers the large number of policemen, namely 1,248 Whites, who have bought their discharge from the Police Force, whether one of the things they do not feel quite happy about is not the very same thing that applies to everyone who earns a salary, namely that they do not feel happy about the fact that it takes them such a long time before they reach the maximum salary notch. I do not know what the position in the Police Force is, but is the fact that it takes a member of the Police Force too long before he reaches his maximum salary not an important reason? This is one of the factors. The other factor is the following. There are many matriculants. A figure is quoted here of 543 matriculants who have shown interest in one recruiting campaign; of this number 258 were English-speaking matriculants, something which is quite encouraging. However, the position is that the difference as regards conditions of service between that of the matriculant and the person with Std. 7 or Std. 9 is quite undesirable, and the difference in training is not desirable either. I wonder whether the Minister should not consider the possibility for matriculants and graduates to be trained and enrolled on quite a different basis? Should they not be appointed to the ranks on a different basis? People with degrees first have to receive one year’s basic training at the Police College and is then appointed a sergeant. According to the information I have he must complete two years’ service as a sergeant before he qualifies for promotion to adjutant-officer, provided he has passed the Police examinations. After that he has to complete one year’s service as adjutant-officer and has to pass his examinations again before he qualifies for promotion to rank of officer. I know of graduates who discussed this matter with me and who wanted to make the Police Force their career, but these conditions of service and the conditions of appointment were not quite suitable; these things do not make these people enthusiastic to join the Force. I want to put it to the hon. the Minister for consideration to make a change in that respect and that graduates and people with matriculation certificates should qualify sooner and on a different basis for appointment as officers. [Time expired.]

The S.A. Police consists at present of approximately 34,000 men in all. This figure of 34,000 comprises Whites, Coloureds, Indians and Bantu, and if one has regard to the fact that in most cases police officials act individually, one is rather astonished to find that there are so few cases where the S.A. Police really deserve criticism. And having regard to the numerous outstanding and valuable services they render to South Africa, I must say that I am proud and grateful to be associated with the S.A. Police. Therefore I want to avail myself of this opportunity to express my personal appreciation, particularly to the hon. member for Pietermaritzburg (City) who extended to me his good wishes on the occasion of my appointment as Minister of this, I think very important Department. One is aware that amongst these 34,000 men in the S.A. Police there must definitely be many who are guilty of misdemeanours from time to time. From time to time there has to be cases of members of the Police Force making mistakes, but at the very outset I want to give the assurance that the S.A. Police do not hesitate to take steps against them. On the other hand, it is our duty to cause justice to be done and also credit to be given in cases where the S.A. Police are rendering good service to South Africa. A few weeks ago I received a letter which deals in general with the S.A. Police and which did my heart good. I think this is very applicable to the S.A. Police. Amongst other things this person wrote to me as follows—

Then he went on to mention a case in respect of which he really thought he had to give credit to the S.A. Police and wanted to do so through me as the Minister in charge. One appreciates such tributes to the S.A. Police, not because one thinks that everything they do is right, but because we know that the work done by the S.A. Police is important and often dangerous and that they also deserve a little credit from time to time.

Since this is the first discussion of the Police Vote for General Gous as Commissioner of the S.A. Police, I should like to avail myself of this opportunity to express my appreciation for the pleasant co-operation I have received from him and his officers. We are aware that in actual fact General Gous ought to retire this year already, and that is why I made an announcement last year, shortly after he had been appointed as Commissioner subsequent to the appointment of General Van den Berg as the Security Adviser to the Prime Minister. I announced at the time that I had asked General Gous, since his period of office would actually have expired in June of this year, to stay on for another year, and even for another two years perhaps, in his capacity as Commissioner of Police. I just want to mention the fact that the Public Service Commission has for the current year at least agreed to the extension of his period of office, and we are privileged to be able to avail ourselves of the services of General Gous for at least another year and probably for longer.

Hon. members made a few references to the work done by the S.A. Police on our borders. You will recall, Sir, that last year and the year before our discussions often dealt with the activities of the S.A. Police on our borders. In the past I made it my task to inform the House as to what was being done, and to what extent the S.A. Police were keeping in check the terrorist activities there. The information I furnished in the past was to a large extent to the effect that infiltration of terrorists had occurred and that terrorists had either been killed or arrested. Since interest is being taken here in the work done by our police on the borders, I should like to furnish the Committee, to the best of my ability, with a glimpse into the circumstances under which the S.A. Police are serving there and the work they are doing on our borders.

At the very outset I want to state that our S.A. Police are not performing military functions on our borders. Nor are we making war and carrying out military operations. These are police stations and posts, and what we are performing there, is purely a police function, i.e. for the preservation of internal security as laid down in section 5 of the Police Act. I think that this has to be our point of departure, and the point on which we should understand one another very well, is that what we have there, is not military operations, but that the work of the police on the borders is police work and not military operations.

You will recall, Sir, that the infiltration of terrorists started more or less in August, 1966, and subsequent to that we decided to make greater use of our police in guarding our borders. These events in 1966 resulted in our northern borders having to be safeguarded and strictly guarded day and night. I want hon. members to bear in mind that these northern borders of ours extend over tremendously long distances. Returning terrorists could not be allowed to re-enter the country freely, and policemen were placed at strategic places all along the northern border. However, during 1967 the terrorist threat took a new turn when the Rhodesian Security Forces which had clashed with a group of terrorists, found that amongst those who had been caught and killed there were also members of the South African A.N.C. Movement. These African National Congress members were identified as South African Bantu who had unlawfully left the Republic during 1962 for military training abroad. In addition it soon became apparent that the A.N.C. and the Rhodesian ZAPU had joined forces for the purpose of making onslaughts primarily on Rhodesia but with South Africa as the ultimate target. These events resulted in our Prime Minister offering to Rhodesia the services of the S.A. Police Force in their territory, to assist in resisting the common enemy and in that way to ensure our own security as well.

To give an indication of the formidable task which rests upon the shoulders of those who guard our borders, it is necessary, first of all, to indicate the extensiveness of our borders which the police have to guard. For these purposes the Committee is being furnished with the following distances only. The South-West Africa—Angola border is 866 miles long. The South-West Africa—Zambia border is 146 miles long. The border between Botswana and South-West Africa is 870 miles long, and the Botswana—Republic border is 1,006 miles long. The Republic—Rhodesia border is 152 miles long. The Moçambique—Republic border is 338 miles long, and the Republic—Swaziland border is 280 miles long. In other words, the total length of our borders is 2,858 miles. Then there is still that part of the Zambezi in Rhodesia, where the S.A. Police are helping the Rhodesian Security Forces, and that is a distance of 385 miles. The total length of the borders of our country is, therefore, more than 3,000 miles. For obvious reasons the number of South African policemen and the number or the names of the various bases cannot be mentioned. You will therefore understand, Sir, that I cannot go into too much geographic detail, but I think it would be fitting if I nevertheless furnished certain information.

In the first instance, there is the question of training. It was asked what the nature of the training was which these men were receiving. Firstly, it is necessary to give a brief outline of the nature of the training. An intensive training course lasting three weeks is being provided at the S.A. Police College, subsequent to which they are provided with another week’s training in field exercises in order to prepare the members of the Force in all respects for the task which awaits them. I may just say that I have visited these training camps in the vicinity of Pretoria, where the Police are being trained in circumstances more or less similar to those they could expect to encounter when they go on duty on the northern borders. The training includes instruction in the handling and a thorough knowledge of a variety of weapons, including the two-inch mortar, light machine guns, the sub-machine carbine, heavy calibre automatic and semiautomatic rifles and automatic shotguns, hand grenades, explosives, booby traps as well as the use and characteristics of all the known terrorist weapons, radio communication, compass and map reading and navigation; the use and maintenance of vehicles, first-aid and precautions against tropical diseases. On the other hand, operational training includes, amongst other things, the following: Guerrilla strategy and tactics and counter-guerrilla methods, tracking, field-craft, bush survival, patrol formations, ambushes, tracking down and destroying enemy bases, collecting information, intelligence and sketching conditions.

Now, I think you may be interested in the accommodation made available to the police on the borders. The accommodation on the borders consists, as I myself found, mainly of tents which are pitched in separate camps and posts where the police are accommodated, and here and there grass and reed huts are put up as well. Mess facilities have been created and adequate supplies of food are being provided. Every base has at least one refrigerator. The hon. member for Durban (Point) referred to that. I do not think he can expect an electric refrigerator in the bush, but nevertheless every camp is provided with at least one refrigerator. Health facilities are good and medical doctors and limited hospital facilities are available at several bases. Dental treatment and injections are given at the S.A. Police College before these men depart for the borders. As regards the spiritual ministration, I may just say that police chaplains are sent up from time to time to visit the men in the north.

Then we come to their functions. How are the functions of the police carried out on the borders? To my mind this is rather important and interesting. Patrols are for the most part carried out on foot when searching for tracks left behind by terrorists. Virtually every inch of the border between Macusso and Western Caprivi and Kanyemba in North-Eastern Rhodesia, which is 670 miles long, has to be covered regularly in order to determine whether bands of terrorists might not have crossed that border. The major part of a member’s period of service on the border is spent on these patrols. A patrol is taken by vehicle to a certain point, where they have to start walking; subsequent to that the members walk the distance to the terminal point, on which they have previously agreed. Members of the patrol are armed with weapons of which I have the particulars here but which I should rather not disclose. In addition to the weapons and ammunition carried by a patrol member, he does of course take food along too, as well as snake bite serum and first-aid equipment, etc., because that area is infested with snakes. The weight every member has to carry, varies from 40 to 70 lbs. I should like hon. members to keep this in mind. In areas where the terrain is flat, they walk between 15 and 25 miles per day. However, in other areas it is hardly possible to cover 10 miles per day. There are many mountainous areas, especially in the eastern part, east of the waterfalls, past Kariba. In those parts, as I have said, it is hardly possible to cover 10 miles per day owing to the mountainous terrain. There are areas in which some foot patrols last for as long as five days. As a result of circumstances it sometimes happens that a patrol is absent from its camp for five days. But the usual thing is for them to be away for only one or two days, and that is what we are seeking to achieve, although in many cases it is essential for the patrol to be absent from its base for longer than two days. The procedure which is usually followed, is to walk non-stop for 50 minutes and then to rest for ten minutes every hour. When a patrol spends the night in the veld, a temporary base is erected and every possible defence measure is taken against unexpected attacks. Throughout the night the members of the patrol take turns to stand guard and to sleep. The roster for sleeping and standing guard is planned in advance so that they may be ready during the night in the event of an unexpected attack being launched on them. Normally these patrols are carried out under very unfavourable conditions. Hon. members who know that part of the world will appreciate how unfavourable these circumstances are which prevail there. As hon. members can appreciate, making use of a road or a footpath is of course extremely undesirable, in the first instance, because one would expect that, if an ambush were set up, it would probably be set up in the footpath or the road. But apart from that there is no point in looking for terrorists in roads or footpaths, since that is the last place one would expect to find them. In all probability they do not make use of footpaths or roads in their movements. Over and above the foot patrols which are carried out, there are operational vehicle patrols as well. These patrols are carried out mainly for the purpose of preserving good relationships with the local community. Hon. members are of course aware that there are very few roads in this vicinity, and these are very bad. Consequently the contact with the local communities which we regard as being so valuable, cannot be maintained by means of vehicle patrols only. In many cases this has to be done by means of foot patrols as well. In one area it has already happened that, as a result of climatic conditions, vehicles got bogged down for approximately six weeks and that the helicopters had to be used to convey food supplies to the various posts.

Over and above the patrols which are being sent out there are also observation duties and guard duties which have to be carried out from time to time. Certain strategic positions, such as bridges, have to be guarded; every base, no matter how small it is, has to be guarded. The men at every base are divided into groups and take turns at, firstly, carrying out patrols, secondly, manning observation posts, and thirdly, doing guard duty at the base, because it is essential that there should always be people on guard at the base. They work for seven days a week, not for five days a week, as do members of the Public Service or employees in the private sector or even the Police within the borders of South Africa; they work for seven days a week and when they return, they receive, as compensation, 14 consecutive days’ leave. That is what they receive for the full-time service they render while serving on the borders.

For what period is that?

The period to which we are trying to keep is approximately three months. In a moment I shall deal with the remuneration and the allowances these men receive, and from that hon. members will be able to deduce that, apart from the excitement of a visit to the wild country along the borders, the financial benefits they derive from such a visit are not to be scorned. Consequently there was a time when we found that some men who had served on the borders, were so keen to go back that they had hardly been home when they volunteered for another period of duty on the borders. You will appreciate, Sir, that these men have to be specially trained and equipped before being sent to the borders, and viewed from this angle it is actually more economical for the Police to send back to the borders those men who are keen to return. But we have arrived at the conclusion that it is not beneficial to the Police Force to allow them to stay there for too long a period. This is especially applicable to the married members of the Force. Members of the Force are being encouraged, by means of financial compensation and other circumstances, to do duty on the borders, but we have arrived at the conclusion that it is not advisable to allow them to stay there for too long a period. At the moment it is our policy to allow them to stay there for three or four months, and then they have to return for a long time before being afforded the opportunity of returning to the borders.

Sir, I should like to give you a brief outline of the conditions prevailing there and the circumstances under which these people work. As hon. members probably know, our northern borders, the Caprivi and the Zambezi Valley, are a desolate, wild and inhospitable region; there is absolutely no doubt about that. It is a tremendously vast region; one finds miles and miles of vast, untamed country there. As regards Ovamboland and the Caprivi, the terrain is flat, sandy, densely forested and it gets extremely hot during the day. In the Eastern and Southern parts of the Eastern Caprivi there are extensive areas which consist of marshes only and which are virtually impenetrable. From the west to the Victoria Waterfalls the terrain is also reasonably flat and very busy, but the Zambezi Valley, below the waterfall, is mountainous with dense bushes, and east of the Kariba, a little lower down, in the low-lying areas, it is unbearably hot. Sir, a moment ago I said that it was hot in Ovamboland. You can take my word for that. However, it is infinitely hotter in the Eastern Zambezi Valley, quite some distance east of the Kariba, where the river emerges, so to speak, among the mountains and the hills and the ridges and it then forms the low-lying valley further east, which is only 1,800 feet above sea-level. I was there in July, last year, and at that time it was as hot there as it is here in our summer months. The heat there is oppressive and working under those conditions is unpleasant. Large parts of this area which I have mentioned are still infested with tsetse flies. One still finds mosquitoes and malaria there, and, as I have already said, many snakes. The hon. member for Pietermaritzburg (City) referred to the wild beasts, the scorpions, the fleas and the flies found there. What our men find extremely troublesome there, is elephant and buffalo. A South African and a Rhodesian have been seriously injured by an elephant and a buffalo, respectively. The elephants are becoming so troublesome that from time to time we are forced to frighten them away from the camps. The elephants are frightened away by means of a certain object that makes a noise; I am not sure what it is, but it causes an explosion in the vicinity of the camp and serves to drive the elephants away from the camps. During the summer months, as I have already said, the scorching heat is the greatest problem experienced by any patrol, and one of our men has already collapsed from heat exhaustion. Hon. members will probably recall that it was announced in the newspapers a few months ago that one of our men, whose parents live in the vicinity of Wynberg or near Kirsten-bosch, had collapsed as a result of heat exhaustion. Salt tablets are taken regularly, but in spite of that it still happens quite often that members have to be picked up by helicopter to be treated for heat exhaustion. In the summer the heat in the eastern part of the Zambezi Valley is a tremendous problem. The Commissioner of Police, other senior officers of the Force and I pay regular visits to these units of the South African Police. I was there last year and it is my intention to go there again this year. We visit them on the border from time to time and on every occasion we are impressed by the particularly high morale of the men, the fine state of fitness in which they find themselves, the health they enjoy and the training and the high standard of discipline maintained there. In the unpleasant circumstances in which these men have to work, it is even more essential than it would otherwise be for good discipline to be maintained there. In general these men are wide awake, and I as their Minister feel convinced and satisfied that, just as they have done in the past, they will in the future also do their duty in the interests of South Africa.

I should also like to tell hon. members that, apart from the terrorist hunters on our northern borders—so far I have confined myself to the terrorist hunters on our northern borders —numerous border posts are also being manned by the South African Police. They man posts on all the borders between the Republic and our neighbouring states. I do not know whether we always have regard to the fact that the Police are used for several tasks which cannot be carried out by any other Department. Apart from our northern borders, our police also man the posts on all our other borders. To do all this work, a very large number of men are of course required. Sir, to give you an indication of the magnitude of this task, I just want to state that roughly 800 Whites and 300 non-white members of the Force are being used on these services every day. I have not mentioned to you, Sir, the number of men used in Rhodesia or in the Caprivi, but the number I have just given you represents the total number of policemen used on all our borders, which of course include the borders of our immediate neighbouring states as well.

Are the non-Whites Coloureds or Bantu?

In most cases they are Bantu. However, what I also want to emphasize in this House to-day is that the police on the borders are not involved in a military operation. I said this at the beginning and I should like to repeat it. The police on our borders are implementing, in particular, section 5 (a) of the Police Act, and are in that way looking after the interests of South Africa.

Mr. Chairman, this will more or less give you an indication of the work done for us by the South African Police on our northern borders. You will perhaps ask me what the prospects are in respect of this terrorist danger which has threatened us of late. We are aware of the fact that we are still going to experience difficulties in the future, but it would perhaps be better if I just read out to you an excerpt taken from the Kenya Weekly News of October, 1968. This will give you a rough indication of the position as it has been developing of late—

This also gives a rough indication of what I think. This does not mean that we have come to the end of the problem with which we have been threatened over the past number of years. In recent times the water level in the Zambezi has been very high, much higher this year than it has ever been before. As a result, terrorist movements have been curbed to a very large extent. However, the water level in the river is already dropping—in fact, it has already dropped considerably—and it would be foolish for us to think that the terrorist danger is something of the past. On the contrary, it is still there, particularly the infiltration from the south-eastern corner of Angola, i.e. from that part of Zambia to the Caprivi.

I tried to give hon. members a glimpse into the activities of the men who are serving up there. I said that, before we send them there, we give them three weeks’ training. In fact, we have in this way already prepared and equipped 3,000 men to do service there on the border. I must say that one is grateful for the fact that these young men are rendering such services as they have recently rendered there. Unfortunately there are some of our men who have given their lives in the exercise of their duties in the interests of South Africa. Mention has already been made of Warrant Officer Grobler who was shot through the chest on a boat in the Zambezi a few years ago. I even met him afterwards. Well, to all intents and purposes he has completely recovered. Mention was also made of the action of constable Chaka, a Bantu who was with him on the boat and who was shot through the head. As the hon. member for Pietermaritzburg (City) said, this Bantu is blind to such a degree that he can only distinguish between light and dark, and hardly that. As far as Warrant Officer Grobler is concerned, what the hon. member said is also correct, i.e. that it seemed at first as if this man had staged a complete recovery. However, he subsequently began to have trouble with his heart, and according to the information I have he died of that last week. He was buried last week in his hometown, Dordrecht. If hon. members would glance at the first page of the Report which was recently tabled they would see that reference is made there to constable Chaka. Now I should just like to mention on this occasion that General Gous and I intend paying another visit to the borders one of these days. We will probably return to the borders during July, visit all the various border posts and make the acquaintanceship of the men on the borders there. These will of course be only those men who will be there at the time, because they change from time to time. On this occasion we will also hand over a gift from the South African Police Amenities Fund to Chaka. I think it might be interesting for hon. members to learn that this Amenities Fund of the South African Police is not a Government fund. It is a fund which belongs to members of the South African Police only, and to nobody else. The South African Police decided to make an amount of R300 available out of this fund with which to buy Chaka a gift. He retired from the South African Police on his own request and settled in the Caprivi area. For the information of hon. members, his monthly pension is R38. When we go up in July we are going to make a whole ceremony of handing over this gift to him. But we are not going to give him the money; we are going to buy him five head of cattle. We are then going to arrange a major function. On the occasion of that function it will be my privilege to hand over those five head of cattle to him. Over and above those five head of cattle we are then going to present to Chaka as a gift from the South African Police Amenities Fund we will also buy another slaughter animal. This we will then slaughter and take along two bags of mealiemeal. After that we are going to hold a party.

What about the beer?

I do not want to make it sound too attractive now; just now the hon. members will also want to come along.

In conclusion I want to say in respect of the men on the borders that mention has been made by hon. members of donations and gifts from various quarters which have been sent to the South African Police, and particularly to the men serving on the borders there. The hon. member for Pietermaritzburg (City) stated that these chaps should be compensated by the State. I admit that I have no fundamental objection to that. That is quite correct. But these men serving there are already being compensated to a reasonable extent. In the Caprivi area, that is the area which falls under South Africa and not Rhodesia, a married man receives an allowance of R5 per day over and above his salary while he is serving there. An unmarried man receives an allowance of R4 per day. In Rhodesia itself our men are receiving an allowance of R4 per day. Now hon. members will ask me, why the difference? Why does he receive R4 in Rhodesia, regardless of whether he is married or not? The reason for the difference is that in the Caprivi supplies are provided by the South African Police for which the men have to pay something. They must as it were pay board for what they receive there.

In Rhodesia however the food supplies are provided by the Rhodesian Government and they do not pay an allowance, or rather board. That is why a distinction is made and the men in Caprivi are being paid a higher allowance than those in Rhodesia. But over and above that I should like to say that it is nevertheless a good thing and a major encouragement for the chaps who are working there under extremely difficult, unpleasant and—this I need not tell hon. members—dangerous circumstances, to know that the public of South Africa takes an interest in them and that they are thinking of them, even if it is only by way of a gesture, for example at Christmas or any other time. Last year at the presentation parade in Pretoria, I mentioned the fact that the territorial authority of Bahurutshe had inter alia recorded the following in their minutes. This is a Bantu authority in the Western Transvaal, I think in the vicinity of Mafeking. It reads as follows—

They then conducted an entire debate on this matter, and concluded with this resolution—

Sir, this is not the only reaction we have had. There was another reaction as well. For example, on 20th December, a letter from the Bantu Commissioner in Dundee was received. The letter read as follows (translation)—

“Above-mentioned purposes” is the combating of terrorists on our borders. The letter goes on to state—

I am just mentioning these few examples so as to avail myself of the opportunity of saying on behalf of the Police—for I am the mouthpiece who has to say this on behalf of the Police in this House—how gestures of this nature are appreciated. It must be borne in mind that these two cases I have just mentioned are not contributions which were made by White persons or organizations but came in the one case from the territorial authority, who set no limits or qualifications on it, and in the other case from the chiefs of Dundee, who stated that it should be used for Bantu constables serving on the borders.

While I am dealing with this, I should like to mention to you another case which only this morning came into the office of the Commissioner of the South African Police, a letter to which R20 was attached. It moved me so much that I thought it would be a good thing if the Committee were informed of this when the Police Vote was being discussed. This is from a dentist here in Cape Town who writes as follows—

Attached to this were two R10 notes. I am using this merely to indicate that there are people who appreciate to such a great extent in such fine words, the service of the South African Police, since they are serving on the borders under bad conditions in the interests of South Africa. I avail myself gladly of the opportunity of expressing on behalf of the South African Police, our greatest appreciation for this and so many hundreds and thousands of others who have since last year and prior to that as well made contributions in order to alleviate the lot of the policemen on the border.

Mr. Chairman. I have taken up quite a good deal of time in giving hon. members a glimpse into the activities on the borders.

I should now like to deal briefly with the points raised here by hon. members. In the first place I want to reply to the points raised here by the hon. member for Durban (Point). I understand that the hon. member has to lend another colleague of this a hand to-night in keeping a few United Party supporters in the fold. I shall therefore begin with the hon. member first.

You probably mean the hon. member for Durban (North).

I keep my U.P. supporters (Sappe) together very easily.

I beg your pardon, Mr. Chairman, I was referring to the hon. member for Durban (North). I made a mistake. They are all so close together. I am also pleased that we succeeded in having the Police Report available before the discussion of the Police Vote. The hon. member for Transkei will no doubt recall that the question of this report is a kind of hardy annual. It is extremely difficult to get all the details co-ordinated. The Bureau for Census and Statistics must process quite a good deal of this information for us. It is not such an easy task compiling a report like this within a specified time. During the past few years I have been dealing with the Police Vote we have, however, had a small measure of success. I think that if in future we make the previous year’s report available just before the discussion of the Police Vote then we would really have achieved an ideal position. I am pleased about that as well.

The hon. member referred to the numerical strength of the South African Police. I do not want to beat about the bush. I want to be honest with hon. members and with this Committee. I, too, am concerned about the numerical strength of the South African Police. It is hardly necessary for me to tell hon. members why it is difficult to recruit the necessary men for the South African Police. It is a question of the conditions of service. When necessary, policemen have to remain on duty for 24 hours a day. If necessary they have to work seven days a week. I have just given you a brief sketch of the conditions and activities of the police on the borders. Even in the interior exceptional demands are made on the South African Police. This is an important Department. The domestic security of South Africa is after all of extreme importance. We cannot emphasize this enough. That is why we are concerned. We are making every possible attempt from one year to another to recruit young men. Last year we had a particularly good year. I think, if I remember correctly, that we sent slightly more than 1,600 young men through the College, after which they were admitted to the South African Police Force. Since last year, and I am now anticipating next year’s report a little, we have not been so fortunate. This year we have not recruited as many men as in the previous year. Over and above that, I must admit that a great number buy themselves out of the service. There are quite a number of reasons for this. In the first place, it is our duty to ensure that enough men are recruited, and in the second place it is our duty to ensure that we keep those men. We will in fact make this our task. If members are able to make any constructive recommendations in this regard, I shall lend a willing ear to them. Hon. members are aware that we are experiencing a shortage of labour in all fields in South Africa. Since there is a shortage of labour, it is obvious that the South African Police will also suffer to a certain extent. We are not fully equipped at present as far as the number of staff is concerned. Our numerical strength is less than it ought to be. It is lower than the permissible number approved for the South African Police. We shall do everything in our power to rectify that position.

The hon. member mentioned murder charges which he thought were not receiving the necessary attention. I do not think that that is quite correct. I think the hon. member’s deductions were a little superficial. I do not think it can be deduced that because a large percentage of these people were found not guilty, investigations should inevitably be lacking in the necessary efficiency.

As far as influx control is concerned, I just want to emphasize what other hon. members have said. I think the hon. member for Odendaalsrus referred to that, i.e. that influx control is essential. Where influx control is relaxed, you can be sure that there will be an immediate increase in criminal offences. This is undeniably true. There is no doubt about it at all. Actually, these two phenomena go hand in hand. Influx control is closely related to criminal offences committed in urban areas.

The hon. member mentioned salaries. To a certain extent I want to agree with him that the time has come when the South African Police can in fact no longer be compared with other members of the Public Service. I have already mentioned the reasons. There are other reasons which I could also mention. To-day the salary scales of the Police, in the case of a person with the same qualification, for example matriculation, is the same as in the rest of the Public Service. Over and above salaries there are in addition certain allowances which are paid to the Police. At the same time I would like to reply to the point raised by the hon. member for Pietermaritzburg (City). That hon. member stated that uniforms should be made available to the South African Police free of charge. The South African Police are being paid an allowance. This allowance is an all-inclusive allowance. It includes, inter alia, the purchase of uniforms. If uniforms were not to be included in the allowance, and uniforms were to be made available free of charge, as we are in fact doing in the case of reservists, our argument for this allowance will to a large extent fall away. I should like to point out to the hon. member that a uniform is not an expensive item. The two or three uniforms which a policeman uses during the course of a year form only a small part of the allowance which we make available to these young men. Now I should also like to announce that we have succeeded in increasing the allowance paid to policemen.

How much is that?

I shall furnish the details now. It has already been approved by the Public Service Commission and the Treasury. The new allowance will be paid with effect from 1st May. I have already explained previously that the allowance is paid in the form of an increasing amount. It begins when a person joins the Police Force who then progresses to the rank of full constable. Then the amount reaches its maximum, as the position was in the past, after which the amount of the allowance decreases again. In other words, the amount tapers off until it falls away completely when a salary scale of R2,640 is reached. That was the position in the past.

He still has to buy uniforms.

Yes, he purchases a uniform out of this amount. The maximum amount which the Police received in the past was R300. The maximum has now been increased to R420. According to the new ratio he achieves the maximum a little sooner, and the allowance is valid for a longer period. In other words, it tapers off again until it falls away completely with a salary exceeding R3,000. The allowance is therefore payable for a longer period. I know that what I am discussing here are not large amounts. This difference in the allowance will entail an additional expenditure of R1.5 million. That is not very much. The salary scales of our Police to-day are the same as those of other Government officials. However, we are giving this matter our attention. If circumstances require and it is deemed advisable, the Cabinet will consider whether the salary scales will be adjusted in places.

The hon. member and hon. members on this side as well, referred to buildings. The hon. member for Pietermaritzburg (City) also referred to the loans which are being granted for housing for policemen. Now I should like to say that the Government has decided in principle to provide all members of the three services, i.e. the Police, the Defence Force and the Prisons Service with housing in future. This was decided recently, and has apparently not been announced yet, and so I should like to announce it here. This Government housing will of course be rented, but as hon. members themselves know, these houses will be rented at a reasonable and fair rental. I think I have stated before that we have already in the past concentrated on providing housing to all members of these services in rural areas. In the urban complexes we have tried to provide 50 per cent of these people with houses. But recently housing in the urban complexes has become a greater problem than housing in the rural areas, or at least as much of a problem. At certain places in the rural areas there is no housing whatsoever available for policemen. In the cities, on the other hand, the rent for houses which are in fact available is so tremendously high that police officials simply cannot pay it. That is why we feel in the first instance that we must supply housing to all members of the Police Force. Whether this consists of houses or flats, makes no difference. That is what the Government is now concentrating on. Hon. members may now ask with what expedition this housing will be supplied. The hon. member for Durban (North) said that the amount of R3 million is very little and would not be able to meet the housing needs of police officials. I can just say that the Government has further decided that public servants, which of course include police officials, must enjoy preference for housing purposes. Hon. members are of course aware that large housing schemes are being introduced everywhere. A tremendous amount of capital is necessary for that, but the Government feels that the public servant’s need for housing should be met more rapidly than has been the case in the past. That is why we want to concentrate our capital resources on the provision of housing for public servants, inter alia, the police as well. When a police official vacates a house and goes to stay in a Government house, he will after all make another house available, which someone else will be able to occupy. Our first task is to provide persons who are sent from place to place, where they might not want to be, with housing. In respect of these matters we hope that there will be a considerable improvement in future. Recently we announced a new Government-subsidized housing loan scheme for public servants. You will recall that this new scheme was announced approximately 14 days ago. This does not mean of course that a police official, a defence force man or an official in the prisons service will not be able to make use of that scheme. That State-subsidized housing loan scheme, in terms of which an official will pay interest of only 4 per cent if he earns less than R5,000 per year, and will pay 5 per cent up to a salary of R7,500 per year, will also be available to members of the South African Police.

I think that I have now replied to most of the points made by hon. members. In addition, I recently made a statement in regard to allowances to persons stationed on the borders.

The hon. member for Odendaalsrus requested that more bursaries should be made available. Sir, I would welcome this with open arms. You must remember that these bursaries, in the same way as salary scales and conditions of service, must also be approved by the Public Service Commission. However, I want to work towards this end myself. We will in due course make more bursaries available to the South African Police in cases where officials want to improve their position and where they want to acquire better academic qualifications. I think it is essential that more be done. The 10 bursaries we make available are taken up so quickly, and our needs are in reality much greater. Particularly in present-day economic circumstances, where bursaries are made available to just about everyone, I would agree with the hon. member that we must try to make bursaries more easily available to such people. However, this is not all in my hands. I still have to co-operate with other Departments, particularly with the Treasury.

The hon. member for Transkei referred to the statement, “some of my best friends are Jews”. I do not know what he wanted me to say. Would he rather I had said, “some of my best friends are not Jews”, or “I have no Jews as good friends”? I would preferably ask the hon. member for Houghton to raise this matter. If she chooses to do so we could have an interesting debate on the matter. What the hon. member for Transkei did in fact do was to refer to the way in which I had replied to the debate which was initiated by the hon. member for Durban (North). Now he is asking why I am so sensitive. However, I should like to put this question to the hon. member for Transkei: Why is he being so sensitive? After all, this is not a sissy game we are playing here. Why is the hon. member so sensitive when I hit back at him when I think it is necessary?

It is not only me you hit back at …

The hon. member stated that the committee had been appointed. He asked us whether we could submit a kind of progress report. The committee has been appointed, but I cannot at this stage give him any more information. I do not regard it as being necessary to elaborate further on this now. I think that I have, since this incident took place, kept the public fully informed of what we are doing. It is for that very reason that I thought that this discussion was to a certain extent unnecessary. I can in fact not add anything to what I said previously by way of statement. I want to ask the hon. member for Transkei not to be so sensitive in regard to the way in which I addressed him. It gives me reason to think that he has a guilty conscience.

But I was not the first to mention it.

No, I am now talking about the way in which I addressed the hon. member for Durban (North). Sir, the committee is engaged on its task. We will report progress in due course. At the moment I am unable to submit any progress report. I can merely give the hon. member the assurance that a very thorough investigation will be instituted.

As regards the interview with Coloureds from political parties, I must admit that I have not yet received a report on that. I shall request the necessary report, and as soon as I have received it, I shall furnish him with information in regard to it. However, I think that the news report which he quoted, appeared very recently. I think it appeared only yesterday?

Yes, that is correct.

Therefore I am not yet in a position to give him any information in that regard.

The hon. member raised the matter of allowances to police officials in the Transkei again. I have discussed this matter with the hon. member on a previous occasion. Now I just want to inform that hon. member of the Cabinet’s decision. They decided that an allowance was payable to White officials. I want the hon. member to listen very carefully. An allowance was payable to White officials in the service of a Bantu authority. That is the first point. Secondly, they must be in a recognized homeland, or thirdly, it must be an area where limited self-government has been introduced. Actually, this last point is merely a qualification. Actually, there are therefore two requirements. They must be in the employ of a Bantu authority, and they must be in a recognized homeland. That is why officials who are doing service in the Transkei, and who are in the employ of the South African Government, do not receive that allowance. The only persons who receive that allowance are persons who have been seconded to the Bantu authority in the Transkei, and who fall under the jurisdiction of the Bantu authority in the Transkei.

That is not right.

In other words, those Whites who are officials and who fall under the direct control of the Bantu authority in the Transkei receive the allowance. If the hon. member now wants to tell me that that is not right, he can argue the matter. But the position of the Police working in the Transkei under the command of the South African Commissioner of Police is no different to that of the ordinary policemen working outside the borders of the Transkei. Their chief is still the South African Commissioner of Police. The same applies to all other public servants working in the Transkei. It is only those people who have been seconded to the Transkei, and who are being paid by the Transkei Government, and who are under the command of the Transkeian Government. It is only those people who, according to the resolution adopted by the Cabinet, are being paid an allowance by the Government.

They are receiving it in the other homelands as well, not only in the Transkei.

Yes, that is quite correct. That is why we have now come to this overall decision. Perhaps the hon. member is correct in stating that a degree of dissatisfaction has arisen as a result of that. However, I want to assure him that any other arrangement we want to make would result in greatly increased dissatisfaction. It may perhaps give him satisfaction to know that all the people working in his area, the Transkei, might be satisfied because he is the member for Transkei. However, if we were to pay all the people working in the Transkei an allowance while we were not paying those who worked just beyond the border an allowance, there would be a tremendous degree of satisfaction.

The police in South-West Africa are receiving an allowance.

South-West Africa has a history. We have this position in respect of the police and the other public servants in South-West Africa to-day as a result of the historic background …

But the Transkei is also historic. [Interjections.]

The hon. member for Durban (Point) had something to say here about the amount which was being paid to the Police, amounts which did not compare as favourably with the amounts which were being paid to the Defence Force, i.e. where a member of the Police or the Defence Force died in the execution of his duties. What is happening here is that as far as the Police are concerned the case is either dealt with under the Workmen’s Compensation Act or alternatively under the Pensions Act, whichever is best. According to my information there is a great deal of doubt, or rather, we doubt whether they are in any way worse off than in the case of the Defence Force. I want to assure the hon. member that I shall institute an investigation. Our standpoint throughout is that the Police should be treated on the same basis in the same circumstances, as far as rank and services are concerned, as the Defence Force. I do not want the police to be worse off than the Defence Force, or vice versa. If that should be the case, I shall make it my task to see to the matter. My information at the moment is that it is doubtful whether this is in fact the case.

The hon. member referred to the pension scheme for retired policemen which has come into operation. This scheme only applies to pensioners who retired on 1st January, 1964 or subsequently, in other words, those who retired from service prior to January 1964 are excluded from this scheme. This is the case, and I am afraid I must inform the hon. member that this matter has been raised with me on numerous occasions already. We can in fact do nothing about it. In the first instance it is not a Government scheme. I should not even be discussing it. The Chairman can rule me out of order, because I have nothing to do with this scheme. It is purely and simply a scheme of the police and of the officials themselves. It is their scheme. It is their decision. The Minister has nothing whatsoever to do with that decision. The second reason, which is the reason they are citing as to why they decided on that date as the date according to which the elderly servants are excluded, is because the matter has economic implications. Any member of the Police who retired from service before that date would have to make such a major contribution to the scheme that joining the scheme would in any case be uneconomic for him. The hon. member proposed an easy solution, i.e. that the State should subsidize. We cannot subsidize in this case. I am afraid there is simply nothing that can be done about this matter. It is a private scheme of the South African Police for members of the Police Force only. It is a scheme which they introduced, in their wisdom, to take effect as from that date. No matter how much I would like to give sympathetic consideration to the representations of others, I cannot of course do so.

Are you talking about pensions or the medical scheme?

I beg your pardon, I mean the medical scheme. But it is members of the South African Police Force who have retired who belong to it. It is however a medical scheme.

The hon. member also referred to Durban and the regional offices there. That is a large complex. There was quite a good deal of delay in regard to the acquisition of the premises. The premises are now situated in Somtseuweg. Originally the tender date was more or less set for 1970. According to information which I have recently obtained from the Department of Public Works, the tender date will apparently have to be moved further into the future, after approximately 1972. But the site is available now. I should like to draw hon. members’ attention to the fact that this will be a large complex. According to my information the construction of this building complex will cost R3 million.

In addition the hon. member also asked what would become of the other police stations in that vicinity. As far as I know, no other police stations are being closed as a result of the establishment of this new complex in Durban.

The station at Point is being closed.

I am aware that we want a greater degree of centralization in the cities because we can in that way provide more efficient service and save manpower. However, my information is that it has not yet been decided to close certain stations. It may be that we will close stations in future, but we will give notice of this some considerable time before it is done.

Has it not been decided yet to close the Point police station?

No, it has not yet been decided to close the Point police station. I am not saying that this cannot happen or that it will never happen in future, but up to the present there has been no such decision.

You must not close that. There are lots of criminals there.

The hon. member also spoke about “the bobby on the beat”. I should like to inform the committee that we have recently, to a greater extent than before, brought the patrolling policemen back in places. I know that there are strong representations that this should be done so that the public can see that there is a policeman patrolling the streets. Owing to the numerical strength it is not always possible for us to do so, but we have to a certain extent returned the bobby to the beat. Where conditions make it possible, we will also in future make use of him to a greater extent.

I have already referred to the points raised by the hon. member for Pietermaritzburg (City) and I should like to thank him for the positive contribution he has made to this debate. The hon. member mentioned the fact that he was an ex-policeman and that he wanted to improve the position of the policemen. I have replied already to the questions in regard to housing, uniforms, and all that remains now is the matter of confinements.

It is the most important point.

The confinement allowance, which was previously R10, has now been increased to R42. The policeman is now receiving a confinement allowance of R42, and I hope the hon. member feels happy about that now.

The policeman or his wife?

I am accustomed to the man being responsible for the accounts, even though he is not always responsible for the deeds.

I should also like to reply to a few points raised by the hon. member for Houghton. The hon. member once more raised the question of the ex gratia payments to the next-of-kin of the Bantu who died in the unfortunate incident on the Rand. The hon. member also asked questions in this regard. She asked whether these ex gratia payments had been considered and paid already. In the past I have given the hon. member a negative reply to these questions. I would now like to explain to the hon. member why I said that. The South African Police cannot, nor can any public servant, adopt the attitude of Father Christmas. Hon. members will agree with me that it has always been the procedure in the past that these ex gratia payments are not financed by departments. The Department is not even aware of whether the Bantu who died in this accident has widows, children or dependants. I should now like to furnish the hon. member with the information, since in the past questions were put to me in such a way, and I was not really in a position to give the information. Perhaps it is an encouragement for certain people to go to those people now and tell them to lay a charge against the police, but when a charge is laid against the police, the police must consider whether there is a case against them. If there is a case against the police, they must consider whether they can settle the case, or whether they must come to an agreement. That is the way in which an ex gratia payment may possibly be made. An ex gratia payment does not originate on the initiative of the South African Police. There are many circumstances which have to be taken into consideration in this case and in many other cases as well. Because no claims have as yet been made in this regard, no ex gratia payment has in any way been considered in respect of these persons who died in the accident.

Has it not occurred to you that you might be forestalling a civil action?

That may be the case, but this is simply the procedure which has to be followed, and I prefer that this procedure should be adhered to in the South African Police. The hon. member will probably encourage these people to lay a claim, but that is how this matter is being dealt with.

As regards “Trigger-happy Sam”, to whom the hon. member referred, I just want to mention that these cases are of course always investigated. A post-mortem examination, held by a magistrate, is always carried out, and if a criminal charge arises out of the circumstances, where there is cause to do so, the Attorney-General must decide whether he is going to institute legal proceedings. It does not belong under the Police Vote to bring up the case of “Trigger-happy Sam” here. It is the task of police to investigate contraventions, draw up a dossier and submit a report to the Attorney-General. After all, the final decision does not lie with the police.

You could recommend that his gun be taken away.

Yes, we could make a recommendation. The Arms and Ammunition Act which has just been piloted through Parliament has not been promulgated yet, with the result that the administration of the new Act is not yet in the hands of the Police. The old Act, which still applies, is still in the hands of the Department of Justice and under the control of the Minister of Justice. All that the police can still do at the moment or were able to do in the past, is to recommend that the licence for the firearm be withdrawn, and in the consideration of that matter there are also many pros and cons, since this man lives away from a densely populated area and is to a large extent alone and isolated. That is why it is still under serious consideration whether his weapon should be taken away. That I am not discussing at the moment. [Interjections.]

The hon. member asked whether I was satisfied that the students had been dealt with objectively. I am very happy to-day to hear that she also had a measure of praise for the police in Cape Town. I am quite satisfied that in Johannesburg the matter was dealt with objectively by the police. Surely the hon. member knows that the other students who arrived there and made trouble, which could have given rise to chaos, were also prosecuted, and not only those students who belonged to her Nusas organization. I do not have the time at the moment, but I welcome a discussion of Nusas under the Interior Vote and then I should like to reveal the role the hon. member is playing. I think it is time the country realized what role the hon. member is playing, and this Nusas organization and these demonstrations which have taken place, the bitter fruits of which other countries have already plucked, will not be tolerated by anyone in South Africa except that little group. If the hon. member prefers we can discuss this question of her role. I want to say at this stage that she acted irresponsibly and recklessly in respect of Nusas and her encouragement of Nusas, and on that note I shall leave her.

I should like to express appreciation for the constructive ideas which were voiced from this side.

I would like to begin by supporting what the hon. the Minister said in regard to the appointment of our new Police Commissioner, Major-General Gous, and welcome him on behalf of this side of the House. I wish to say that we are very pleased that the Public Service Commission has agreed to his reappointment for another period of office and that we wish him the best of luck in a very responsible position indeed. But having said that, I am afraid I have to say something which is not quite so pleasant. It appears from information that has been given in this House that certain members of the Police Force are under instructions to carry out investigations relevant to the Group Areas Act and in connection with the holding of identity cards by members of the general public. Will the hon. the Minister be so kind as to tell us whether a special section of the ordinary Police Force or the Criminal Investigation Department has in fact been detailed off to deal with these matters and, if so, under what kind of instructions do they work? I raise this question now because far too many oases involving police action have come to my notice during the past few years, and it seems to demand some kind of explanation from the Minister. There must surely be some distinction made between police investigations in terms of the infringement of any statute, where the possibility exists of a charge being preferred against anyone, on the one hand, and ordinary investigations which the Secretary for the Interior and his officials are entitled to make with regard to race classifications under the Population Registration Act on the other. There must be a clear distinction here and I would like to know from the Minister whether the 1,388 people who were questioned in the Thomas Boydell Building over a period of a couple of years and more were considered to be potentially criminal cases, or at least the majority of those? You see, Sir, section 12 of the Population Registration Act empowers the Secretary, or any member of the Public Service whom he may appoint, to carry out all these investigations with regard to a person’s background for information that has to be recorded in the register. Now, can the Minister explain to us under what circumstances the police are used in investigations of this kind, and why are they used at all? I want to know what sort of cases the Department of the Interior hands over to the police. I want to know whether there is some permanent form of liaison, some communal office, such as the offices in the Thomas Boydell Building in Cape Town, where members of the Police Force and officials from the Department of the Interior in fact function together? I know this happens in regard to group areas, but does it apply to the population register also? I want to give the Minister one example of the sort of thing that has been happening recently to a European constituent of mine—a European, a person of integrity. He complained that he and his wife and his sister-in-law, all of whom were in possession of white identity cards—and may I say that they have had them for over 10 years—had certain action taken against them by the police. The police had been sent an anonymous letter charging that the wife was really Coloured and not White. Instead of the police finding out who had written the letter, which I would have thought would have been their first course of action, and then when they found out who it was, referring the writer of the letter to the Department of the Interior, so that, if necessary a third-party objection could have been formally lodged—there was provision in the law for that—with the Department, together with the payment of R20 as proof of their bona fides in objecting to the wife’s classification, the police decided to take action on their own. I want to know what right they had to do that, and whether this sort of action is encouraged. These two women were interrogated at great length by two detective-sergeants, not in the Thomas Boydell Building, but at Caledon Square Police Station. One of them was brought there in a police car. The wife, when she was cross-questioned at Caledon Square, throughout the entire interview was never told what she was brought in for. Both sergeants asked her about her family background and her possession of a white identity card. They suggested that she had worked at some stage for an Indian and in a most unpleasant way—I have all the sworn statements—they asked her whether in fact there was anything connected with her having worked in an Indian store for a few months as a shop assistant, and they then asked what white girl works for an Indian. She explained that she had worked there for a few months only after she left school in order to raise some money, and that subsequently she had only worked in white institutions. Anyway, both policemen started questioning her about her whole family, her brothers and sisters, and whom they have married, and her entire background. Hours were wasted cross-questioning this poor woman. One of the sergeants said to her that it was very funny that she had not married when she was young, but that as soon as she met a white man she married him—this was the type of insinuation made. Finally, they informed her that her statement would be sent to Pretoria with her card and that they would see to it that she was reclassified. In fact no further action was taken against her at all. I just wonder how many other people are treated in the same way. Now, all this was done on the strength of an anonymous letter. If the letter was really anonymous, what right did the police have to take any action? And if it was not anonymous, they should have referred it to the Department. This was surely the correct procedure. But the sister was cross-questioned as well. She was fetched at her place of work and was cross-questioned at Caledon Square for five solid hours, and then she was taken back in the police car and the homes of the family were inspected, and I want to know what right of entry the police had in this instance to those homes. Finally, they let her go and said that everything was quite all right.

Did this happen in Russia?

No. I brought this matter to the Minister’s attention and I must say that he had the case investigated. But when the sister-in-law was brought in for cross-questioning, she made a sworn statement saying that the sergeant concerned had threatened her with 180 days’ detention if she did not co-operate. I brought this case to the attention of the Minister and he had it investigated and he wrote to me about it. He said that the two sergeants denied categorically ever having threatened her with 180 days’ detention, and in fact that the two officers had been seriously warned that this was a very grave thing to do, and I accept that the Minister had these officers warned. But the Minister went on to say in his letter that the interrogation of the women concerned resulted from anonymous information received by the police, so that in fact he agreed that their information was anonymous. I want to know to what extent the police act on receipt of anonymous information regarding population registration cases. What has it got to do with the police? And then it transpired that the detective-sergeant involved was a member of the Security Police, who had been put on to these investigations by the C.I.D. Surely, skilled detectives could be more profitably employed than in interrogating bewildered members of the public about their racial background, when in fact they are not guilty of any crime whatsoever? I would say that in spite of the denial by the hon. the Minister that these two officers knew nothing about the threat of 180 days’ detention, it is highly unlikely that any working woman, such as a wage clerk in a factory, as this woman was, would know sufficient about the intricacies of South Africa’s criminal law to be able to cite the 180 days’ detention provision at all unless somebody had put it into her head. She would be most unlikely to know anything about it, and inevitably the doubt arises in the public mind as to how many other South Africans are being subjected to this type of treatment behind the scenes; because there are other cases which I have brought to the notice of the Minister. I will pay him this tribute that whenever a case is brought to his attention, he takes immediate action and attempts to put the matter right, but I am not satisfied with the Minister’s explanation in regard to these two matters. I would like to know by what right the police take action in these matters at all. It does not fall within their province as far as I can understand, or are they instructed along these tines, and if so, by whom? I only want the hon. the Minister to answer one more question. Will he tell us what link exists in ordinary normal circumstances between the officers of the Department of the Interior, who are responsible for making inquiries relevant to people’s background and family life in terms of the Population Registration Act, and the Police Force? Who takes the initiative? Do the police act on their own in the assessment of any situation, or do they await instructions from the Department before they carry out investigations which are carried out by the C.I.D.? I would also tike to know whether a check is kept on police activities in this field by the Department of the Interior. [Time expired.]

The hon. member for Wynberg will forgive me if I do not react to the involved, anonymous matters she raised. We shall leave it to the hon. the Minister to reply to her. Another year has gone by since we discussed the Police Vote in Committee of Supply last year, a year in which the S.A. Police Force has once again made its contribution not only towards preserving the internal security of South Africa, but also towards combating crime. We are proud of the S.A. Police. We are proud of what they are doing, and of what they have achieved. In spite of the shortage of manpower, we are grateful for and proud of what they have done. This is the task of each individual in South Africa; we should not simply leave the task of combating crime to the South African policeman; it is the task of each one of us to combat crime, and therefore I just want to refer in brief here this afternoon to a matter which is not of a very pleasant nature. I am referring to a report which appeared in the Daily Despatch of 19th May, 1969, and which reads as follows—

Sir, that was an unfortunate speech, and it was also an unfortunate report. It was not only a rash speech, but also a very irresponsible one. I do not believe a greater crime can be committed in this multi-racial country of ours than the crime of making speeches such as this and of inciting people of different race groups against one another. Here we have a community on the borders of the Transkei, the members of which have been co-operating with the citizens of the Transkei all their lives, who have always been well-disposed towards them, who have always helped them under all circumstances, and now such allegations are made against them. If the allegation had been made that one or two of them had committed offences of this nature, it would have been a different matter, but this allegation was made against the entire white community living in those two districts. I have a letter on my person from the chairman of the North-Eastern Cape Agricultural Union, who reacted strongly to this statement. What the allegation amounts to is this—

Sir, this allegation is devoid of 99.9 per cent of truth. The Whites in those areas are law-abiding people; the Police can testify to this, and this allegation is devoid of all truth. I take the strongest exception to this remark made by Mr. Majija in the Transkeian Parliament. I should like to take this matter a little further and urge the hon. the Minister to change our approach in respect of the reserves. Transport here has undergone a complete change during the past decade, as a result of the improvement of our roads and the fact that modern cars are much faster. I want to ask the hon. the Minister whether the time has not arrived for control posts to be established between the reserves and the white areas.

What is going to happen when they become independent?

That is all very well, but has the state of affairs not changed during the past 40 years; do we not have tarred roads which link up with others all over the country to-day? It is possible for a criminal to leave Johannesburg by car in the morning, commit burglary in the Transkei that evening and be back in Johannesburg the following day. Was this possible in the old days? That is why I want to advocate the establishment of patrol posts between us and the reserves, but the Police Force need not necessarily be used for that purpose. The Police Force is in the neighbourhood, and people can be trained through the medium of short courses, and can be stationed on the borders. This system has been in operation between Lesotho and South Africa for many years. Why can this not be done in this case as well? The Police can then exercise supervision over the people guarding the borders. Sir, I think this matter is a very important one. If such control posts were to be established, that would eliminate many problems and would also protect many people.

Sir, the hon. member for Aliwal mentioned a speech made in Another Place in the Transkei and said that this was an irresponsible speech. I agree with him; it was irresponsible, and it is apparent that irresponsible speeches are not only made in this House. He also took exception to the insinuations made there because they were made against a white community. What about the insinuations which were made by the hon. the Minister with regard to a certain community in South Africa? What about the insinuations made by the hon. member for Ermelo about a certain community in South Africa? Why has the hon. member not taken exception to those insinuations? No, he has only taken exception to this particular insinuation because it was made in the Transkeian Parliament. It is quite obvious from his closing comments about border posts that he is still stuck with the mentality of the arch-“verkramptes”. Does he regard the Transkei and the Bantu reserves as foreign countries? Sir, I do not think there is any need to discuss this matter any further.

I should like briefly to discuss with the hon. the Minister a report which appeared in the Cape Times this morning under the headline “Multi-racial service broken up” and ask him whether it is not possible for him in some way to bring about some change in the relationship between the Police and the students in South Africa. Sir, this report which was received this morning has upset me and I want to ask the hon. the Minister this pertinent, direct question: Was it necessary to break up a religious service to arrest these students? I am quite prepared to accept that they had committed an offence. It appears that they were on land owned by the Bantu Trust without permits; that they had committed an offence which was a continuing offence, but, if this report is correct, surely the arrests could have been made before or after the service. Was it necessary to break up this service? Sir, we have heard a great deal here to-day about the Police Force, and let me say that what I am going to say now gives me pain as the son of an expoliceman on pension. But as the hon. the Minister said a little earlier, we are engaged in something which is not a “sissy” game and therefore, unfortunately, I have to take off the gloves.

On the 9th May I asked the hon. the Minister—

The hon. the Minister’s reply was “Yes”. I further asked him “whether this office bearer was subsequently questioned; if so, on what dates?” The reply of the hon. the Minister was “No”. On the 16th May I asked the hon. the Minister—

The answer was “No”. Sir, I have in my possession an affidavit signed by a certain James Sabiston Corrigall, to this effect—

You still believe NUSAS?

The affidavit goes on to read—

Sir, I would like to ask the hon. the Minister which of these statements is correct? Were the replies given to my questions correct, or is this affidavit correct?

Sir, on the 9th May I asked the hon. the Minister “Whether he”—that is to say, a member of NUSAS—“was questioned in connection with a letter”. The reply was that that falls away as under the previous question the Minister had said that no interrogation had taken place. On the 16th May I asked the hon. the Minister—

The reply was “No”. Sir, this affidavit goes on to read—

The student who was being interrogated was asked to write certain things. Amongst them were the following—

Here is another example: “Limehill is in Natal;” “I enjoyed my stay in Cape Town although I did not get to see the Houses of Parliament.” The affidavit goes on to say that he was interrogated again on the 28th April, 1969; again by Warrant Officer Van Rensburg. [Interjections.] He was there for half an hour; it does not matter why he was there. I am dealing with the hon. the Minister and the questions put to him in this House. The affidavit says—

He was asked again to write certain things and amongst them were such peculiar things as “ann other”, “shoctover”. Sir, does this not imply that some letter must have been under consideration, and particularly his express statement, “they believed I had written a threatening letter to the Prime Minister”. Sir, certain questions arise from this: Who has given the wrong information; was it the hon. the Minister; was it members of his staff? Has there been a mistake? Could this mistake have occurred three times? It goes further: Can the veracity of Ministerial replies to questions put in this House be relied upon? Sir, you are aware of the fact that the replies to these questions are quoted as authority outside as well as inside this House; and we, the members of the Opposition, very often find that this is the only means whereby we can obtain information on which we can build a speech. If the replies to questions asked in this House cannot be relied upon, the whole system of Parliament may as well be scrapped. Parliament itself falls into disrepute because of this sort of thing. Sir, why was this interrogation of this student by Warrant Officer Van Rensburg denied by the hon. the Minister and his department on three separate occasions? Why was reference to this letter alleged to have been addressed to the hon. the Prime Minister denied on two separate occasions?

Sir, in the questions which I put to the hon. the Minister I also raised certain other points: What was the nature of the letter; to whom was it addressed; is a charge envisaged? The only reply I received from the hon. the Minister was this: A possible charge of crimen injuria or of contravening the Post Office Act. He denied, however, that there was any question of a letter. Sir, I think this is a very serious matter. [Laughter.] Sir, I hope that the laughter of hon. members on the other side is being recorded. Here I am questioning the integrity of the hon. the Minister. I am sorry to do it. As I said at the beginning it pains me to have to question either the Minister’s integrity or that of his department, but this is something which has to be said and I have now said it. [Laughter.] Sir, hon. members opposite laugh; I hope that fact will be recorded in Hansard, because I will certainly use it outside.

Mr. Chairman, in the minute which is still at my disposal, I want to say to the hon. the Minister that for three years I have been asking his predecessor about a police station at Hcmmarsdale. I am sure that his officials will tell him that the highest officials in Natal have suggested that this is a matter of extreme urgency. They did so four or five years ago, and unfortunately we again find this year that there is merely a re-vote of R50 on the Estimates. I wonder if it is not possible in some way to expedite the establishment of this police station, which is a matter of urgency. The hon. the Minister has not only my word for that but also the word of his own officials in Natal.

Mr. Chairman, I should also like to bring a few points to the Minister’s attention. Firstly, I want to refer to the position at Ovis Tunnel, where a tunnel is being constructed to link up with the Orange River. Quite a large township was established at Oviston recently, in which quite a few hundred Whites and slightly more non-Whites are living. However, they have no police service there at all. A retired policeman, a certain Mr. Van der Vyver, served there a while ago, but he was taken ill recently and has not been reappointed there. There is a good deal of licentiousness at Ovis Tunnel at the moment. I have received various deputations from Venterstad and I have been asked to draw the Minister’s attention to the fact that parties at which Whites and non-Whites mix were being held in that vicinity at night and that laws passed by Parliament were being disregarded altogether. I am referring to the immorality laws.

Your voters?

No, this is no laughing matter. I should like to draw the Minister’s attention to the fact that it is absolutely essential to have some kind of supervision. But supervision is not only needed at Ovis Tunnel, because a further two camps have been erected for the construction of the tunnel, namely at Midshaft and at Theebus, where more or less the same conditions prevail, because there are no policemen there either.

Another matter which is causing us a great deal of concern in those parts, is the fact that, where most farmers above the Vanderkloof Dam have been bought out, the owners have already moved away, with the result that there are thousands of morgen on which there are no white people living. Stock theft is taking place there on a large scale now. When I visited my constituency two weeks ago, various farmers sent deputations to me to draw my attention to the fact that some plan or other had to be devised as extremely large numbers of stock were being lost now. I asked them in what way they were losing their sheep, and they told me that they were disappearing from camps in groups of between 30 and 50 at a time. We have a reasonably large police establishment at Colesberg, but not such a large one at Petrusville, and it seems to me as though we will have to set about matters in quite a different way. I do not think it will be sufficient only to patrol the roads in that area. This work will have to be done by night and detectives will be required for it. The suggestion I want to make to the Minister and the Commissioner of Police is that we should make use of Bantu detectives. Since they know how to set about it, a Bantu should simply go to a farm in his usual old clothes and even with his bundle on his back and go into service with a farmer. We can get a number of them to do this. Ten to fifteen farms are lying unoccupied at the moment because they were leased to persons, but only Bantus are living on them at present. It may be that one Bantu will not give another away, but I do think that the Bantu police will be able to take action there and perhaps bring to book the guilty ones. This has caused a very great deal of unrest among the people, and I have been asked to draw the Minister’s attention to this matter urgently and to ask him whether those losses could not perhaps be eliminated in future. I want to emphasize once again that the only way in which the guilty persons can be brought to book is to place Bantu detectives in that area. Six Bantu detectives could perhpas be placed there if there are so many available.

For the rest I can only say that the police services we are receiving in those parts are excellent. It has been said in this House this afternoon that some of our policemen are sometimes a bit rough in the way they handle people, but you cannot blame a policeman for taking strong action sometimes. There are so many cases. I have seen such cases myself. I should like to say this to my friend the hon. member for Walmer. Say for instance a Coloured person or a Bantu attacks a white policeman with the intention of stabbing him. What is such a policeman to do? He cannot simply shoot him. All he can do is to knock him down. That is all. The attacker usually has a witness with him, but the poor policeman has none. Such a person could then lay a charge against the policeman for assaulting him, while that never was the case. I think it is the member for Durban (Point) who said that policemen act irresponsibly sometimes. A time comes when they have to act. When something has to be done, it simply has to be done. Many of these people are under the influence of liquor. The first thing they grab is a knife. The police cannot simply use their revolvers. They have to defend themselves with their hands, and this is a dangerous way of defending oneself.

In conclusion I want to say that the services generally rendered to the public of South Africa by the Police are such that we can only speak of them with the highest praise.

Mr. Chairman, I agree with everything said by the hon. member who has just sat down. I think we are deeply indebted to the hon. the Minister for the informative way in which he sketched the difficulties with the terrorists on the borders. We often read about these things in the newspapers or we hear about them in other ways, on the radio, for example, but I think the account given to-day is to the benefit of the country. I hope the Press will make use of it and report matters as they were explained here. I want to congratulate the hon. the Minister and the Commissioner on the fine debate we have had on this Vote. I have been sitting here from the time the discussions started. As far as I am concerned, this is one of the most pleasant debates we have had this year, although there were discordant notes here and there. I have listened to the Opposition, and they differed a little here and there with the hon. the Minister and the Commissioner in command of this great Force. It is a Force for which we should all have respect because the safety of all of us depends on them. We all appreciate the services rendered to our country by the Police. Some of the members of the United Party made suggestions here and there with a view to bringing about improvements. In former years we usually had a minor civil war being waged here. The spirit and the attitude are quite different this year and I want to congratulate the Minister and the Commissioner on it.

Then I should like to give my wholehearted support to the Minister’s appeal to us and to the country for contributions and funds for our people on the borders, who have to face many hardships. I do not want to boast against the hon. member for Kroonstad now, because he also spoke about this. I do not know what amount he has collected or intends collecting, but I may say to the House that we are going to send a cheque for R2,300 to the Commissioner of Police next week. That is Lichtenburg’s contribution. The appeal made by the hon. members for Kroonstad and Omaruru, as well as by the hon. the Minister, should be noted by this House. There is no doubt that these people are suffering many hardships, and for our freedom, for our interests and for our survival. We must show our appreciation in this way.

Furthermore, I want to associate myself with the hon. member who congratulated the Minister on the way he handled this Vote for the first time. It has been pleasant. We want to wish him every success in the years to come.

Mr. Chairman, the hon. member for Lichtenburg mentioned the action that has been taken by members of the Police Force on the borders of South Africa. We on this side of the House certainly associate ourselves with the magnificent work which is being done by the men in those areas. We also believe that the State should perhaps grant more relief and assistance to these people, rather than that it should be left to charity to provide comforts for these men who are serving their country with such distinction.

But, Sir, I want to deal with certain matters concerning police reservists. The hon. the Minister, when replying to other speeches which have been made, gave some information in regard to police reservists, but I believe that greater attention should be given to this part of the Police Force. It is obvious from the reports of the Commissioner of Police that they are accepted as an integral part of the Police Force. The reply to a question which I put in the House last month, indicated the latest figures of the number of people serving in the Police Reserve. Here I believe that a greater effort must be made so as to attract more people into the service of the Police Reserve. It is obvious that, with numbers of the Police Force actively engaged in fighting terrorists, certain other work here on the home front, as one might term it, has to be undertaken by police reservists. Therefore it is a little disappointing that the figures in recent times have not shown any marked improvement as far as the numbers of police reservists are concerned. I believe that it is important that when the Department of Police undertakes its various recruiting campaigns for people to join the Police Force, they should also include in their propaganda and publicity, the activities of the Police Reserve, and so encourage these people to give their time to this very important task, particularly in our cities.

There is, however, one aspect which, I believe, is also important when it comes to attracting people to serve in the Police Reserve, and that is the question of compensation. The hon. member for Green Point mentioned this aspect and also indicated how police reservists have in the past lost their lives in the course of their duties. It is a pity that these police reservists appear to be covered only by compensation in terms of the Workmen’s Compensation Act. In one particular case where a police reservist lost his life in the execution of his duties, his widow was awarded only a R200 gratuity, a R36 per month pension and R18 per month for each of her two children. This gives her an income of R72 per month to support herself and her two minor children, and a gratuity of only R200 for the loss of a life.

Here, I believe, is a great shortcoming as far as the security of police reservists are concerned in the course of their duties. We realize that these people are exposed to the same dangers as a person serving as a full-time member of the Police Force. Therefore, it is imperative to give security to these people that they can realize that they will be compensated adequately should they lose their lives in the course of their duty.

Another aspect which I believe is important is the issue of free uniforms to police reservists so as to make them a more integral part of the Police Force. I believe that these people who are performing excellent duties, particularly in our cities, should receive full recognition as an important part of our Police Force in the policing of our cities in these present times.

There is another aspect in regard to the shortage of police which I should like to mention, namely the employment of temporary police whereby we have the re-employment of pensioners. These pensioners are re-employed on a basis which, of course, is different to the basis upon which full-time policemen are appointed. However, these people are also performing a very important task in maintaining an adequate Police Force in South Africa. When they serve as temporary policemen, many of them obviously are pensioners and have reached an advanced age in some cases and require a greater amount of sick leave. In terms of the provisions of the employment of these temporary police officers they only receive 30 days sick leave in a cycle of three years. Many of these temporary policemen are performing excellent service. Some of them are now even appointed as station commanders although they are only serving as temporary policemen.

Another aspect which I should like to draw the hon. the Minister’s attention to is the question of the Police Service in regard to prevention of crime particularly amongst the younger people. If one looks at the position in other parts of the world one sees the important part that is played by the Police Force in the prevention of crime and particularly as far as juvenile crime is concerned. Some years ago there was a force known as the Ghost Squad which was part of the Police Force. This squad performed excellent duties in the Durban area particularly concentrating on the younger people. It was a great pity when this force was disbanded, because particularly those people who are concerned with youth organizations were always pleased when they knew that they could call upon the Ghost Squad, as it was known, to assist them in the prevention of crime in many instances. Recently I read an article which appeared in “International Criminal Police Review” published by Interpol. This was an article setting out the part played by the police in the prevention of juvenile delinquency in various parts of the world. Here these special youth squads have been established in many countries with a great deal of success. As far as New Zealand is concerned, they found that the formation of a new branch of the Police Force known as the juvenile crime prevention branch resulted in a considerable drop in juvenile delinquency in that country. It was also found that it was possible in this squad to employ women police to attend to certain matters that sometimes arise where women police can be of great assistance to the police in the carrying out of their duties. We know that in South Africa it is difficult in the various circumstances that exist to often employ women as policewomen. However, it is found that in the question of dealing with particularly juveniles there are many instances where a woman can be used in the Police Force with a great deal of effect and a great deal of success. Therefore I believe that the hon. the Minister should give consideration to ways and means of supplementing the Police Force by greater recruitment and by extending the Police reservists particularly amongst the Bantu people. I understand it has been an experiment up to now as far as the Police reservists in the Bantu areas are concerned. The Bantu themselves can play an important part in maintaining law and order, particularly in Bantu townships. A greater effort should be made to recruit these Bantu for the Police Reserve. I believe it would be a great improvement to the activities of our Police Force particularly as regards the prevention of crime by a juvenile crime prevention branch of the Police Force. The necessary manpower could be derived from also using women police in certain instances where it is deemed necessary. Here I refer particularly to the question of children. We know that in various instances offences have been committed in terms of the Children’s Act. It is necessary for the welfare organizations to get the aid of the Police Force in carrying out certain removals that might be necessary as far as undesirable parents are concerned. It often leaves a very severe scar on the minds of the children when the Police are called in to remove the parents. This scar will remain in the minds of the children for many years. It is found in other parts of the world that women police can be used in connection with the implementation of the various provisions of the Children’s Act or where certain contraventions of the Children’s Act are taking place. We know too that South Africa can be proud of the record of its young people. However, it is always important to see that that proud record is maintained. I believe that the Police Force, by expanding its activities in regard to the prevention of crime, particularly as far as juveniles are concerned, have been doing a great service to South Africa and a great service to the future citizens of South Africa.

Mr. Chairman, before expressing a few thoughts in connection with our Police Force, I just want to bring a local matter to the attention of the hon. the Minister, namely the poor state of repair of the buildings of the police station at Groot Marico. I have mentioned this matter on various occasions in this House. The police officials at Groot Marico must be satisfied with buildings which are quite unsuitable and very old indeed. I hope and trust that these buildings will be replaced so that those people may also have pleasant accommodation and find their work more pleasant.

It also gives me pleasure to extend my personal congratulations to General Gous on the outstanding way in which he performed the duties attached to this most responsible position as chief of the South African Police since he was promoted last year. To be chief of the South African Police in times of unrest, such as we are experiencing at present, is to find oneself in a most unenviable position. I wish him success in carrying out this responsible task. We have full confidence in him and in the Police Force. If one looks at the statistics which are given in this informative annual report there are a few things which strike one. In the first place, one aspect that strikes one, is the small number, namely 31,753, policemen on the actual establishment. The authorized establishment was 33,628, but the actual establishment was only 31,753 last year. This figure represents 1.70 policemen per 1,000 of the population of South Africa. This small number of policemen had to deal with nearly three million cases which were brought to their attention. The police, who constitute only 1.70 per 1,000 of the population of the country, had to deal with 605,254 prosecutions. What really struck me was the fact that there was a downward trend in the number of persons per 1,000 who were prosecuted annually. The statistics furnished here date from the year 1912. The number of prosecutions per 1.000 of the population was 46 at that time. During the following 40 years there was an upward trend. In 1952 the number of prosecutions per 1,000 of the population was 99. After that year the number of prosecutions increased rapidly and during the next nine years it exceeded 100. It reached the maximum of 119 in 1956. The number of prosecutions per 1,000 of the population for the ten years ending 1961 was more than 100. In 1962 it was 80, and then it dropped immediately to 13 for the first half of 1963 and to 30, 29, 29 and 32 during the following years. In 1967-’68 there were 31 prosecutions. South Africa should take note of these figures, because it can only mean one of two things; it shows either a growing respect among potential criminals for the effectiveness of the organization and the actions of the Police Force or a general improvement which has taken place in our national way of life. I think the former rather than the latter is true. I think the downward trend is attributable to the fact that people have a greater respect for the long arm of the law. The services rendered by our Police Force in our country are tremendous. When reading these figures one must reflect for a moment to grasp fully what the Police Force really has to deal with. It has to render its services within cosmopolitan, urban areas with a high population density. Apart from that they also have to render service to the vast areas of our fatherland. In the urban areas they have to keep a watchful eye at all times. In the country areas mobility and the ability to move from one point to another owing to the long distances, is of great importance.

These services must be rendered in a multinational country where tension sometimes arises at the level of contact and relations among various races, which has to be handled in such a way that that tension will disappear and good relations will be effected and maintained. It requires the greatest sense of responsibility on the part of the Police Force which sometimes finds itself between these groups under difficult circumstances. I think tribute must be paid to the Police Force for the way in which they carry out their various tasks at this delicate level in our multinational country. If we analyse the duties and responsibilities of the Police, it becomes clear that their activities cover a tremendously wide field. Mention has already been made of this during the discussions. They form the buffer between the world of crime and society. The police are constantly finding themselves in a state of >war. They are not subject to a declaration of war before they may start fighting. They are constantly in the front lines where they face the enemy day and night on a multitude of fronts. The fighting methods of the Police Force differ from the methods applied by defence forces in time of war. They do not operate in commandos or in units; they fight as individuals, as two-man teams or mostly as a handful of men where they have to face the enemy. One must have courage to confront the enemy by oneself, an enemy who is sometimes a hardened criminal. They have to hunt down the criminal who is the confirmed enemy of society, and if he does not want to surrender, he has to be overpowered. A police constable has to face death man to man and must force the enemy whether dead or alive to surrender. As I have said already, this requires courage. By virtue of their duties they are the protectors of house and home, and limb and life in our society, and they must sometimes pay with their lives for our safety. We want to say to them that we appreciate what they do. The Police Force also has to deal with the well-organized masterminds and gangs of the underworld. They must outwit these thugs of the underworld and bring them to book. The professional criminals plan their crimes with great skill. Sound training and great skill are required from the members of the Police Force to carry out the difficult task of dealing with skilled underworld organizations. They must be fine detectives and fine soldiers at the same time. They have to follow criminals at all levels in order to get them out of their lairs and hiding places. In this connection one has the greatest respect for our Police Force, and that is why the State should do all it possibly can to give these men the necessary training. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, I wish to raise with the hon. the Minister a matter which is of the utmost importance to my constituency, namely that of stock theft. This matter has been touched on this afternoon, but I believe the people in my constituency are more exposed to this threat than the people anywhere else in the Republic in that we border on a foreign territory and that we also border on a country which is in the process of becoming independent. We also have Pantu reserves which criss-cross the entire constituency.

One of the points that worries me in the report of the Commissioner of the South African Police is the figures given for stock theft. The total number of cases reported was 35,110, of which 6,708 were found to be false upon investigation. The number of undetected cases amounted to 16.000, which makes a total of 22,774, out of 35,110 cases of stock theft which the Department was not able to solve, as I understand the figures given by the hon. the Minister.

It is one of the most difficult crimes to solve.

I agree one hundred per cent and I want to say that I am very grateful indeed for the work that is done in detecting and following up this kind of crime. As the hon. the Minister says it is one of the most difficult crimes to solve, especially where one has an area such as we have in the Underberg district. A special meeting was held in this district on the 19th December with senior Police officials in Natal to try to sort out some kind of answer to the raider who comes over the border from Lesotho at night.

The full-moon period is of particular importance, when people travelling at night have the assistance of the full moon to see where they are going. They can see the stock they intend rustling and can also see the place where the stock can be safely kept over the following day, should they be pursued so that the stock can then be taken over the border on the following night during the period of the full moon. One of the suggestions which was made at the meeting with the officials of the hon. the Minister’s Department, was that mounted patrols should be instituted. The piece of ground under discussion is an area which falls under the jurisdiction of the Department of Forestry and which is uninhabited. Obviously this area offers itself as an ideal base for operations of this sort where people from over our borders may seek a place to settle down for the night, scout the country and then carry on their practice of rustling stock during the moonlit periods. A suggestion was made at this meeting upon which I would like the hon. the Minister to comment.