Mr. Chairman, one of the many tasks of the hon. the Minister of National Education is that he also has under his wing the S.A.B.C. and everything that goes hand in hand with that. At this stage I should, for a moment, like to accentuate that aspect of the Minister’s activities. In the first place I want to congratulate the S.A.B.C. on the annual report which they have published. It is a good annual report, very well published and well thought out. I notice that the Annual Report also deals, inter alia, with the preparations that are already being made for the introduction of television within the foreseeable future. I must say that I am also glad to see that film programmes are already being shot, edited and stored in order to build up a supply for when the television services are introduced, so that we will then have a source on which we can draw. I think this is a sensible step. But my problem is that one gets no indication anywhere of the actual problems which are cropping up at this stage in respect of technicians. Sir, this is a matter which I already raised last year. I showed the hon. the Minister, on the basis of the available statistics, what the shortage of technicians is going to be in future, in my opinion. I pointed out that we are going to experience a tremendous shortage of technicians, particularly since we are going to introduce a nationwide service. I believe that even at this stage the S.A.B.C. is already experiencing problems with a shortage of technicians. I should like to know what the position is in that respect, and then I should also like to know from the hon. the Minister what steps he is taking in this connection, in his capacity as minister of National Education, in respect of the training of technicians for television purposes. I know that there are certain of the technicians in the telecommunications services who can easily be switched over to do the work of television technicians, but, Sir, we already have a tremendous shortage of telecommunications technicians, and with the need for television technicians, this means that the shortage of technicians is going to be that much worse, and I fear that we are not only going to have a poor television service, but that we are going to have a worse telecommunications service, if that is possible. Sir, the introduction of television services in South Africa will, to a large extent, entail a new field of training. This is not a profession or a job that has traditionally been done by Whites in South Africa, and I do not believe either that there are sufficient Whites in South Africa to provide for the needs in both the homelands and in the so-called White areas. Sir, if we want to meet these growing needs, if we in South Africa want to introduce a good television service, we shall have to train non-Whites to become television technicians. Here it will not be a question of non-White infiltration into a profession that has only been carried out by Whites in South Africa. I want to ask the hon. the Minister what facilities he has for the training of non-Whites as television technicians, where they are and to what standards they will be trained. I think it is very clear, at this stage, that a television service can only be successful if we make complete use of all non-Whites everywhere in South Africa by training them as technicians in this connection.

Order! I want to appeal to hon. members in the back benches and in the cross-benches to give me an opportunity to hear the hon. member.

Sir, I note that the first television broadcasts have already been planned for 1975, i.e. in the Witwatersrand area and in the Southern Transvaal. It is not clear to me whether it is going to be a complete programme or whether it is just going to be a kind of signal tuning service. I hope the hon. the Minister will be able to give us more information in this connection. But if it is, in fact, going to be a programme service, as I hope it will be, I still believe that the annual report could have given us a better analysis of what is being planned. What is going to be the content of the programmes which the public here in South Africa are going to see on television? Sir, I think that is an important matter. If we want to make a success of television, we must ensure that we get programmes on television which are going to be sufficiently interesting and stimulating to the viewing public in South Africa for them to support those programmes. I believe that they would be able to give us a time and programme bulletin of what is being planned with respect to television services as profitably as they have done in respect of the SABC.

Sir, another very important point is this: If it is going to be a programme service in 1975, it is also clear that 1975 is going to be an election year. That is the year in which the general election ought to be held in any case.

That will then be the end of your career here.

Sir, the SABC has increasingly begun to move in the political sphere. What I want to know is whether the same thing is going to happen with our television media, particularly in the 1975 election, which would then be on hand, to the benefit of the Government alone; are we again going to have a visual “Current Affairs”? If that happens then I believe, with a view to the fact that television is such a powerful medium, that these would be extremely unfair election tactics on the part of the Nationalist Party. The only conclusion one could draw from that is that they are afraid to give an equal platform to United Party speakers. If they were not afraid, they would not have been afraid to let the United Party also state its case via the same medium. Sir, this is a fundamental question, because it seems to me as if the first television service is purposely going to be introduced on the Witwatersrand in 1975, the election year. Therefore I want to know what the policy in this connection is going to be. Is the television service going to make propaganda for the Government and its policy in every possible and impossible way when they get the chance, or are they going to give all of us, who disagree with the Government, a proper opportunity to make use of this medium? Sir, the Nationalist Party, as you know, has always been against television, but having read the annual report of the SABC, it would seem as if they are so ecstatic about television that one would think they discovered it themselves. Sir, I believe that we could, in fact, have politics on television; I think it would, in reality, be a good thing. The other day we had the BBC filming here, when all the National leaders in South Africa appeared before the television cameras, and people in overseas countries, in Britain, now have the opportunity to see our national leaders putting their case, and I think that if people overseas can have that privilege, we in South Africa ought to have it as well. Sir, we must allow politics in our television service, but then we must learn from the experience of other countries in the world. I believe that most Western countries today, particularly during election time, give each party an opportunity, an equal opportunity, to state its case on television.

Then there would very quickly be no more United Party men left.

Then the Government ought to accept my suggestion. [Time expired.]

Sir, I want to tell that hon. member immediately, in connection with the reports we have about the Prime Minister’s appearance on British television yesterday or the day before, that they on that side would do very badly if they wanted to compete with us on television. They would do well to keep off the television screen, because they would lose that round as well. [Interjection.] Sir, that hon. member asks many questions. He must also do a little homework every now and then. I take it that he also receives the newsletter of the Human Sciences Research Council, and it already contains a lot of the answers he was seeking from the Minister. He asked whether research is being done in connection with television programmes. Sir, this Human Sciences Research Council has a newly established Institute for Communication Research, and the following investigation has been entrusted to this Institute in connection with television: “Expectations and preferences concerning television; the influence of television on attitudes and opinions; time utilization patterns and stereotypes; the influence of television on other news media.” Sir, that investigation is being carried out. One cannot begin with an investigation and then simply have the answers ready immediately. The hon. member must, therefore, be a little patient and then he will also get those answers. These matters are being dealt with very conscientiously and correctly and he will get a good television service in South Africa, because the project is in the hands of this side of the House which is going to implement this according to their plan for television in South Africa.

That is what we are afraid of.

But one sees the hon. member is afraid of everything. He is afraid of a bad television programme, and I do not know what else. We simply have some scared people sitting there and that is why we notice that they are also afraid of the next election. But, Sir, permit me to speak about another matter.

It is a characteristic of our times that everywhere in the world there is lawlessness which is aimed at subverting authority. In all spheres authority is being put under pressure. All authoritative bodies are having their authority questioned, including the authority in the parental home and the authority of the church. It is tragic that for so many people in today’s world the words discipline and authority do not count any longer. This revolt against authority and discipline is manifested in various ways. There is the “hippie culture” and everything that goes with that. We also know of the manifestations of this in South Africa amongst the student youth. We know of the “sit-ins” and the “walk-outs”. We know of those who kick up a fuss and carry placards, and on the other hand we know of those who protest by standing in silence without saying a word. We know about that; we see it. But there are also those who provoke authority by abusing the written and spoken word, displaying banality and smut by means of the image and the written word. A characteristic of our times is, I believe, a lack of discipline. But now we must add at once that we in South Africa are still very lucky. We have actually had few of these manifestations, and we actually see few of them because it is in our natures to still act with discipline. We do not find it difficult to subject ourselves to authority. This is basically so because we still believe in and accept the Christian view of authority. According to the Christian view of authority there is only one Authority, one Architect of authority; all other authority is derived authority. All persons in authority will one day have to answer to the one Great Authority for their activities. This Christian view of authority is still being cultivated in our homes, schools and churches, and fortunately there are still those in authority who have a calling, the parents, the teachers and the spiritual leaders who still conscientiously carry out their task in that connection. Having said that, I immediately want to add that we have one of our greatest assets in our disciplined student and pupil collectively in South Africa, and we must jealously guard this great asset. There are those who are rowdy, who demonstrate and parade their filth, but fortunately they do not have a great following. We must be warned against them, in season and out of season, and we believe that honest disciplinary action will yet bring them to their senses or, if necessary, every now and then hammer them into shape. But what I want to do today is to take my hat off to those rectors, those school principals, those parents, who are still the masters of their own domain. Sir, recently a great deal has been said about rectors, but I want to say today that I really take my hat off to that school principal here in Bellville—I think it is a Mr. Smit of the D. F. Malan High School— who still knows what he wants and who still enforces the rules, the code, laid down at his school, and he still does so with the birch if necessary. No, I do not know the school and the principal, but I am convinced of one thing, i.e. that a code is laid down, and it is not an unreasonable code, and all who are connected with that institution must subject themselves to those regulations and that code. This principal is prepared to maintain his authority and to ensure that that code is obeyed. And let us take note: It is not a single-handed action. That is seldom if ever the case. It is not single-handed action, nor is it one man’s whim. These things are being done by the principal in co-operation with his staff and in co-operation with the control board. It is action by the community; it is what the community wants. We are grateful for the fact that there are still such people who can enforce authority and who do not deviate from a code if it has been laid down. When the idea came to me to speak about this, I just happened to get hold of a cutting about conditions in Britain. The report was published late last year. The heading is: “Discipline Problem in United Kingdom Schools” and it reads as follows—

It continues by referring to 4 800 secondary schools, and in the case of 568 it is stated—

In addition it is stated—

There is consequently a fear on the part of the schools that it will no longer be possible to enforce the authority of the principal and others.

We are glad that there are still those in South Africa, in the school sphere, the college sphere and the university sphere who are prepared to maintain authority. I therefore also feel virtually compelled to tell Prof. Bozzoli of Wits that I want to raise my hat to him just a fraction, because what have I read in Die Vaderland? Unfortunately I do not have the date on the cutting …

That is a pity.

No wait, it appeared in Die Vaderland of yesterday or the day before (translation)—

This concerns the suspension of the editor and cartoonist of Wits Student (translation)—

Now he is coming right.

I want to point out that I believe that if they had taken action earlier, they would not have experienced all the distress which they have experienced at that institution.

Having said that, I should like to add that we as adults also have a task. Those who speak of “children” speak of beings who have a need of adults. Children are accompanied by adults who can lead. I want to tell the youth that those who cannot follow, will never be able to lead either. They would consequently do well to subject themselves to the sympathetic guidance of authority. It would be to their advantage and also to the advantage of our Fatherland.

Mr. Chairman, I should like to say a few words initially, on behalf of the teachers of South Africa, in connection with the increased salaries which have come to them. I cannot but quote two paragraphs from the official publication of the Suid-Afrikaanse Onderwysersunie. The first paragraph deals with the sound and appreciated relationship between the hon. the Minister and organized education. I shall quote this sentence (translation)—

This is followed by this important sentence—

That is definitely a very good testimonial for the hon. the Minister, and we on this side of the House would like to confirm this. Then I also want to say that the teachers’ reaction to the salary increases was a very fine one, in my view. What did they write in this publication? They state that, as far as the future is concerned, they call upon every teacher in the Republic to react in the only possible way and that is: Greater effort and harder work. Then they add that they want to appeal to the teachers to give back their salary increases in the form of greater dedication ot their task, more outstanding service to the community and increased productivity. That is a striking testimonial to the teachers of South Africa. We want to say thank you to them for that, because the future of our people and our youth are in their hands.

The National Education Policy Act of 1967 contains two very important principles. Firstly there is the principle that education in South Africa will be Christian education and that it will have a broad national character. The idea is that our education in our schools, our colleges and our universities will have the two bases, Christian and national. There are four reasons why this standpoint has been adopted. Firstly it has been adopted so that our schools, our colleges and our universities shall, through their training, ensure that our young people become balanced adults. Secondly this was introduced so that they would become people with a positive view of life and, thirdly, so that they will become people with specific ethical norms which would make them useful citizens of this country. Fourthly—and this is very important—it is being done so that our education and training of our young people will give our young people a cultural basis which would ensure that our country does not go to the dogs in the course of time as a result of the decay of its morality. What do we find today in South Africa in spite of these fine ideals and objectives? We find that at certain of our universities trends are developing which militate directly against these principles and ideals. It is a very great source of concern to us that that is being allowed to happen, and that attempts are not being made from within these universities to combat and oppose these attempts at activism on the part of a few small groups. What conclusions can we draw? I am very glad the hon. member for Wynberg is here this afternoon, because I should like to come back to what she said yesterday evening. From what I have said, we can conclude that certain student publications appear, that certain decisions are made by certain student leaders, by certain lecturers and even by certain university heads themselves that attest to a spirit of negativism about matters which intimately effect South Africa’s security and its orderly survival. Secondly these publications—and I am referring, in particular, to publications of the Witwatersrand University and the decisions of certain students or so-called leaders in Cape Town—attest to a spirit of arrogance towards Afrikaners and those things which are of value to Afrikaners. Thirdly they attest to the artificial and cheap humanism amongst some of these people. The question I am now asking myself is whether it has not become imperative for these universities, in the interests of real academic freedom, to organize a sound counteraction to put a tight rein on the so-called 5% group of people. If this were done, our universities would really be “places of learning” instead of “places of protest”. I believe the latter is what they are called these days. For that reason I am very glad that Sir Richard Luyt has also openly begun to take action this weekend and also that the head of the Witwatersrand University has begun to take action. I am glad they have done this because when a politician holds a meeting before students—I am referring to the hon. member for Orange Grove—and asks them three specific questions, and their answers to all these questions are in the affirmative, it indicates to me that there are people at our universities who are no longer studying, but who are occupying themselves with activist politics. What were the questions which the hon. member for Orange Grove put to a group of students on the Witwatersrand? They were: “Will you break the law?”, “Will you assist Black workers to strike?” and “Do you support polarization between Black and White in South Africa?” To all three these question those people shouted “Yes”. In other words, they are saying: We shall encourage strikers; we shall contravene the law; we shall promote polarization between Whites and Blacks. The hon. member for Orange Grove can confirm that that happened. If something like that happens, we are dealing with groups at universities who are no longer students.

Yesterday evening the hon. member for Wynberg attacked the hon. the Minister with these words—

Then she has the temerity to say to the Prime Minister—

What do you mean by “temerity”? I will say what I like.

“He is the one who is looking for a political confrontation with the students and I advise him and the hon. the Minister to leave well alone”, she said. In that respect she is temerarious.

You have a cheek to call me “temerarious”.

I repeat: she is really temerarious. By what she says here to the hon. the Prime Minister, she is creating the impression amongst students that the hon. the Prime Minister is the cause of the problems we have at our universities. The time has come for the hon. the Leader of the Opposition to take the hon. member for Wynberg in hand for a change and tell her: Count your words; you are playing a dangerous game. I wish you could have seen the expression on the hon. member for Durban North’s face while the hon. member for Wynberg was making this statement yesterday evening.

Are you a mindreader?

What more does she say? I am accusing her here of inciting students. She tells students that it is this Government’s object to discredit English-language universities in the eyes of the public.

I never said that. I have my Hansard here. You are telling a lie.

She said further …

Order! The hon. member for Wynberg must withdraw that allegation.

Mr. Chairman, I have my Hansard here. What the hon. member said is not true.

The hon. member must withdraw the allegation.

I withdraw it.

She says, in addition, that the hon. the Prime Minister said that the polls are the answer to grievances, but what did she say then? She said that the National Party had manipulated that channel. What seeds is she sowing amongst the general electorate? She stated, in addition—

The time has come for the hon. members of the Opposition to tell the hon. member for Wynberg: “This far and no further; you are doing South Africa a great deal of damage”. I want to appeal to the hon. the Minister, since he said at the time of the congress at Bloemfontein last year that there would probably be legislation to ensure that university authorities maintain the necessary discipline at their universities, to bring legislation forward now because the time has come for us to show our students who the bosses are in this country, them or us. This Government, which is the representative of the majority of the electorate in the country, is the boss in the country and it has a policy which it will implement in spite of the hon. member for Wynberg.

Mr. Chairman, it will probably not be expected of me to react to the rightist-activist speech made by the hon. member for Worcester. We have a commission sitting at present which has not yet submitted a final report to this House or the hon. the Prime Minister on the matters he discussed. I would prefer to confine myself to the hon. member for Germiston who made a much more responsible speech. He spoke about the authority of the home, the authority of the church and the authority of the cane. I must say that I have had much experience of the cane when I was young, and it has done me no harm. I appreciated it at the time. Where I want to cross swords with the hon. member for Germiston however, is where he right at the beginning of his speech spoke about the Prime Minister’s television interview on the British television network last night. For the record I just want to say that we also heard something about that television show in Britain. We heard directly over the telephone that the hon. the Leader of the Opposition stood head and shoulders above everybody else in that show. I was glad, however, to listen to the premise adopted by the hon. member for Germiston in his speech, because he spoke along the same lines as the hon. member for Wynberg did last night. He appealed to parents to, I would not say enforce, but to exercise their parental authority over their children by guiding them. The same appeal was made by the hon. member for Wynberg, and I think it is an appeal all of us in this country, as responsible people, should make to our children. It is an appeal which the Minister the Department of Education and every responsible parent, person and voter in South Africa should make. I was very glad to see that the hon. member for Germiston was speaking along the same lines as the hon. member for Wynberg did.

Now you are making a big mistake.

I want to support the hon. member for Wynberg in regard to the one point she made, i.e. that it is not for the universities to change the social or political order in South Africa. The duty of a university, and I think she made that very clear in her speech, is to train our children to become leaders, to guide them in the right direction. What the hon. member also stressed was that our young people are frustrated today. I do not want to see it among the English-speaking people only, but among all our young people in South Africa. It is we who are responsible for that. We should give guidance, and we should stop making this kind of speech to which we were listening a moment ago. If there is a commission investigating those matters we must stop talking in this House about things which should not in this stage be discussed here. Let us coolly and calmly consider our problems. I want to make this appeal to everyone in this House. I should now like to deal with a different matter.

†Since the passing of the University Education (Agriculture and Veterinary Science Affairs) Bill, the control over agricultural and veterinary faculties has changed from the purview of the hon. the Minister of Agriculture to that of the Minister of Education. The hon. the Minister will remember that there was grave dissatisfaction among veterinarians and organized agriculture in regard to the attitude of the Mönnig Commission and the then Minister of Agriculture when it was decided to extend the facilities at Onderstepoort instead of establishing a second veterinary faculty. This dissatisfaction arose because of a blank refusal to receive representations or evidence from the South African Veterinary Medical Association. I want to refer now again to this matter, and I want to ask the hon. the Minister to give his very serious consideration to the representations of the S.A. Veterinary Medical Association and organized agriculture in regard to veterinary services in this country. There is a crying shortage of veterinarians, not only of State veterinarians, but of all veterinarians in South Africa and something must be done to find enough of them. I want to refer the hon. the Minister to resolution 13 adopted at the annual general meeting of the S.A. Veterinary Medical Association which was held on 15th September, 1971, at East London, which reads as follows:

Sir, this proposal was accepted by the Council in an amended form. The amended proposal read as follows:

That was the new Minister of Agriculture—

Through this proposal, they are asking for the appointment of a new commission of inquiry, on a broad base, which will take evidence from all the veterinary and agricultural institutions in South Africa and have a new look at this matter in order to see whether the expanded facilities at Onderstepoort are really sufficient. The point is, speaking from my experience as a coastal farmer and from that of the Natal coastal farmers, that one can train a veterinarian theoretically high up in the inland areas, but if he is sent to the coast, he is like a complete novice. He has to learn again. I want to make a positive suggestion to the hon. the Minister of Education in this connection. We have a shortage of State veterinarians. In the medical profession, once one has completed one’s full course at a university, one has to serve a year at a hospital. Now, surely, in conjunction with his colleague, the Minister of Agriculture, this hon. Minister could arrange for a year of housemanship before the certificate is granted to any veterinarian qualified at Onderstepoort or at whatever college the Minister may establish in future. That housemanship should be served in the outlying areas, where they can gain personal experience under the supervision of the extension officers and learn from the experience of the people who have had to deal with diseases in different parts of the country. I believe this period of housemanship is an absolute necessity in the training of veterinary scientists. I believe, that if the hon. the Minister would consider this, he would find that he would fill a gap in agriculture and at the same time educate the veterinarians who are now under his jurisdiction, in a far better way than they have been educated before. I want to leave that matter there, and I sincerely hope that the Minister has paid attention to my plea.

I want to deal with another matter now which is perhaps related to what we were talking about earlier on. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, the hon. member for Orange Grove, the “shadow Minister”, although I do not really want to call him that, because I think he should rather be called a “shade Minister”—the only shade there is, is the shade thrown by his large body—of the United Party came here last night with a statement of the United Party’s education policy Then he came, inter alia, with a number of completely unmotivated things. He said, inter alia, that they were in favour of parallel-medium education. Now I want to ask him: Mention one single recognized educationist to us who is in favour of parallel-medium education here in South Africa. I have here a copy of a petition made by the English-speaking parents of Rustenburg, where they have only parallel-medium secondary schools, to the Provincial Administration of the Transvaal, in which they are asking for an English-medium secondary school. In this, inter alia, the following was said—

Then they motivate the petition further by saying that their children are going to suffer want in respect of many things, for example, culture, language, religion, etc., if they do not get a single-medium secondary school. Sir, these are the people who tell the voters outside that we want White apartheid. Now I want to ask the hon. member to go and tell the English-speaking parents of Rustenburg that they want White apartheid.

The hon. member for Florida, inter alia, expressed the hope that, when we have television, the various political parties will get an opportunity of stating their various policies. I welcome that request, Sir, because then we will for the first time get an opportunity of putting the whole case to the voters outside, and that will be the end of their double talk. They will then no longer be able to put on their liberalistic guise in the cities and tell the people there how liberal-minded they are, and then again to go and tell the people of the deep platteland what negrophilists these National Government members are. We will therefore welcome this.

Sir, I should like to concentrate on this report issued by the SABC. I also want to congratulate the SABC on the thoroughness shown here, especially in regard to the preparation already made for the institution of television in South Africa. This once more proves to me the thoroughness with which the National Government has always done matters; it is also evident from this report submitted to us. This is not only with regard to the technical aspects, but also to the preliminary work that is being done for the supply of television programmes. I also want to thank the SABC for the preliminary work they have already done as regards the provision of those television programmes we are going to see. The SABC and the people responsible for this have a very difficult task in ensuring that programmes will be shown regularly. In speaking of programmes, Sir, I actually mean South African produced programmes. This is understandable, especially when the various population groups in South Africa are taken into account. That is the very reason why we are grateful for steps having been taken to activate certain persons and organizations regarding the provision of programmes. We know that such programmes are already being stored away. According to the report it appears that also in other countries throughout the world there is a permanent shortage of high quality television services. I think that a good television service, which we all want, will only be and remain a good service if it is restricted daily solely to programmes of high quality. It must follow that the greater the number of hours for broadcasting, the lower will the quality inevitably fall, and this also applies to the value of that service. That is why I want to ask the Minister that initially a limit should possibly be placed upon the number of hours, so that the programmes which are broadcast will be of high quality only. For that reason those programmes should, in the first place, also be presented in the evenings, when families are together, and they ought to be family-orientated. Provision must be made, in particular, for the youth, specifically at those times when the family is together. Possibly programmes could then be more individually orientated later in the evening.

Sir, congratulations, too, to the SABC on the idea of a film archive which is being created and, inter alia, as they put it, on the interviews being conducted with aged people, aged people of prominence who will, of necessity, no longer be with us when television is introduced. I am thinking here, in particular, of an exceptional person, i.e. Rev. De Villiers, the composer of our national anthem, The Call of South Africa. Similarly, Sir, there are probably also many other historic occurrences which we would all probably like to view at a later stage. Something which our descendants would also very much like to see is a good film of a United Party man, i.e. if such a film could be made, because, after all, that is something that is going to disappear and it is something our children will never again have the privilege of seeing. But it is also said that something that is pretty, comes out even prettier on the television screen, but that something that makes a poor showing makes an even poorer showing there, and therefore I think that if the United Party wants to make use of television, they will have to keep their shadow Minister away from the television screen.

Sir, I also believe that we would not only want to depend on South African made programmes, but that we would also like to have good foreign programmes—material which could be dubbed into Afrikaans and English—and that we would also like to look after our non-White population groups here, because we and the National Party have always believed that we do not begrudge any population group that which we claim for ourselves and enjoy. Sir, with this preparation, and with what can be learned from the experience of other countries abroad that already have television, I believe that South Africa will be given nothing but the best television service, and that it would be worth waiting for.

Sir, then I should like to congratulate the Government on the decision that no advertisements will appear on our television. I am saying this because, in the first place, we do not want our programmes riddled with advertisements which could be annoying. According to my information, the advertisement question is regarded as a continually growing problem wherever television services are being furnished, because the advertisements which are offered by large companies, are specifically offered in the peak hours, which are the most sought-after hours, and the advertisers’ programmes are of a poor quality. [Time expired.]

Sir, in the few minutes at my disposal, I should like to focus attention on an aspect of special education. I want to return today to a matter which I raised here in 1966 in my maiden speech, i.e. the care of children with serious mental retardation, and more specifically their educational care. Sir, briefly the position is that these children were previously the exclusive responsibility of the Department of Health. But the Van Wyk Committee of Inquiry recommended that the Department of National Education should accept the responsibility for the education of those educable children who are seriously retarded mentally. This principle, which was proposed by the Van Wyk Commission, was accepted as such by the Cabinet, for which we are sincerely grateful, but the legislation to make this possible has not yet been completed. Our problems really began when the then Minister of Health announced in good faith that this new dispensation would come into operation on 1st April, 1971. On the basis of this announcement the public concluded that the new dispensation would result in the Department of Education now taking over the total needs of the day centres and providing for those needs. Consequently there was a tremendous decrease in the contributions of the public to these centres, which has caused us serious problems, so much so that the present Minister of National Education has, on occasion, had to make a serious appeal to the public not to withdraw their financial support for the day centres. Unfortunately that misconception still prevails amongst a very large sector of the public. You will also realize, Sir, that the present situation is extremely unsatisfactory and that it is frustrating to a very large extent. The subsidy paid to these centres has again been increased this year to R2 per pupil per day of attendance, and we are very grateful for that. But this subsidy is still being paid via the Department of Health although, as I have said, the principle has already been accepted that the children should become the responsibility of National Education. Before the status of these children has been determined we cannot, in actual fact, do anything, and before the necessary legislation has been passed, their status cannot be determined. Sir, permit me to take one particular day centre, the Alta du Toit Centre in Bellville, as an example to illustrate the problem. There they are operating in a temporary prefabricated building and they are accommodating slightly more than 50 children, with a waiting list of another 100, approximately. The land on which the centre’s buildings stand, forms part of the property of a high school which has just been expropriated by the province, with the result that they will shortly have to vacate that centre. In the meantime quite a bit of money has been collected for a school and for a hostel, and the centre also has the necessary alternative premises. But, Sir, you can accept the fact that there are insufficient funds available for such a large project, and because these children have no status, as I said initially, money cannot be borrowed either. In addition, the accommodation will eventually have to comply with the requirements which the Department of National Education will lay down. At this stage the department does not yet have any norm, because it is not yet this department’s responsibility. For that reason I today want to ask of the hon. the Minister to have the department begin with research, until such time as the necessary legislation is passed, in connection with the standards that are going to be required for the buildings, and the nature and the extent of the training that will eventually be offered to these children. The danger of falling between two stools is a problem that is faced, to a greater or lesser extent, by all day centres, but the Alta du Toit Centre’s problem is infinitely greater, in actual fact, because an existing centre’s survival is now being threatened without any future prospects for any other refuge for these children. The only thing that will set our minds at rest at all is the hon. the Minister’s assurance today that the department will begin with research in the meantime and that the legislation will be passed as quickly as possible. I want to point out that the parents of such children are not asking for the pity of this House. The children do not seek that pity either. We are merely asking for a place for them in the State set-up. We are asking this for those who are less endowed with intellectual assets. We are not asking this for emotional or sentimental reasons, we are asking it because we believe steadfastly in their inalienable right to that place in the State set-up.

Mr. Chairman, I want to associate myself with the sentiments expressed last night by the hon. member for Wynberg as well as the hon. member for Orange Grove when they pointed out that it would be wrong to label all students with the same tag. [Interjections.] I also believe that there is one fact which we must accept. That is that a measure of frustration does exist amongst students at this stage. I think it is our duty to do something to alleviate this frustration. In view of this I want to address an appeal to the university authorities to allow political parties to establish official branches on the campuses of the residential universities. This is something which has been unacceptable to them up to now. We in the United Party believe that students can indeed make a practical contribution to politics in South Africa. We believe that if they are officially excluded and remain on the outside, they do in fact find themselves in a political vacuum. It is as a result of this political vacuum in which they find themselves, that frustrations accumulate. Therefore I am addressing a serious appeal to the university authorities to abrogate this resolution of theirs which has existed for years and to make it possible, for the sake of the students and everyone concerned, for official branches to be established there.

Now I want to return to some of the replies given by the hon. the Minister last night. Of course, he tried in his usual unimpressive way to belittle the speech by the hon. member for Orange Grove. In the course of his speech he made statements —I must say he made a few peculiar statements—which once again proved to us that his is a negative attitude towards education in South Africa. In the first place I want to tell him that our plea for a doubling in the expenditure on education is not an unrealistic one. I want to remind him that something of that nature will do no more than place South Africa on an equal footing with some developed countries and only just on an equal footing with some undeveloped countries in the world.

I was particularly shocked by his negative attitude to the establishment of a South African Teachers’ Council. I think it must be a shock to all the teachers in South Africa as well. Why is the hon. the Minister trying to hide behind provincial administrations? [Interjections.] No, it is his task to persuade those bodies. The Federal Council of Teachers’ Associations has been paying attention to this problem for years, but the hon. the Minister regards it as an insurmountable problem if a provincial administration is not prepared to allow it.

I asked you to state your point of view.

The only thing that I want to tell the hon. the Minister, is that if it is possible for the nurses, who are mainly in the employ of the provincial administrations, to have a registration board, surely it is also possible for the teachers. If it is possible for professional engineers, who work mainly in Government departments, to belong to a professional council, surely it is also possible for teachers. The only thing we need, is a Minister with a little more daring and perseverance. To my mind the silliest question he put to us, was the question as to what the powers of such a professional board were to be. This question was put by an hon. Minister who has been ruminating since October, 1972, on the draft Bill which was presented to him by the National Education Council. That draft Bill indicates all the guide-lines along which this is to develop in South Africa. This is something which is the end result of a long period of co-operation among the National Education Council, the Federal Council of South African Teachers’ Associations and the Committee of Educational Heads. Now the hon. the Minister comes along and asks us what the powers are to be. Surely I can help him in this regard. He may rest assured that as far as we are concerned, we shall not be satisfied with a watered-down kind of registration board, for that will be an insult to the teaching profession. When we speak of powers, I can give him this advice free and gratis. We feel that there should be at least three requirements. In the first place such a council must have full powers to decide who the members will be who may be admitted to it. In the second place that council must have the power to be able to decide what their code is to be. In the third place they must have the power to exercise discipline. Without its having those powers, such a council will be a farce and not worthwhile. It seems to me as though this draft Bill will go the same way as its many predecessors did. Last night the hon. the Minister virtually raised his hands in despair and asked us: “What must I do about it?”

†I also want to draw attention to another matter which I believe concerns all of us and this is the ability of some of the new teachers who enter the profession. Here I want to refer to the research work which has been done by Prof. MacMillan of Natal University. This research revealed facts which are alarming, disturbing and which we cannot ignore. I would like to quote to you some of these facts. It revealed that “there has been a slight but steady lowering of the academic ability of those entering the teaching profession”. The most disturbing factor was that it revealed that there was a tremendous loss of potential teachers at the end of their third year at university. Between 40% and 50% of them failed to appear in the UED class the next year. Also a high-percentage of the UED students, i.e. those people who go to the universities and spend four years there in order to qualify as teachers, never enter the profession. In the light of this, I think we must do something to encourage people with greater academic ability to enter the profession rather than be satisfied with the situation revealed by this scientific research, that there has been a steady lowering of academic ability. I now wish to pay attention to the salary and post structure and I urge the hon. the Minister that there should be a complete revision of the salary scales and post structures for teachers. If ever we required proof of this, it was the 15% salary increase which was announced this year. The salary scale is so congested that one could not logically accommodate the 15% salary increase. We have reached the stage long ago that it is impossible to adjust the present salary scales. What is required is a complete reorganization. I want to repeat that this is something which is impossible as long as teachers have to work within a framework determined by the Public Service Commission. This is another fact which the hon. the Minister last night wanted to be convinced about. It is something which is obvious to everyone except of course the hon. the Minister. When I raised this matter last week with the hon. the Minister of the Interior, it was even obvious to him; he admitted that the teachers had a problem. If it is then necessary for me to convince the hon. the Minister, let me remind him of the fact that we have 40 different salary scales on the progression table and that those salary scales are grouped together in eleven promotional posts. Consequently you find illogical groupings, anomalies and inconsistencies. There is a need for creating new posts, but they cannot be created within this framework. They cannot be created as long as you work with the Public Service Commission who inevitably has a system of equation. I also want to say that a revision of the basic categories for qualified teachers is long overdue. I want to say that some of those categories are becoming obsolete and outdated. For instance, category A which is matriculation plus one year’s post-matriculation training, has in the reality of today become obsolete. You may now and again find somebody from overseas, an immigrant for example, applying for a post with only matriculation plus one year’s post-matriculation training. The same will be the position with the category with a matriculation certificate plus two years’ post-matriculation training.

*Finally I want to tell the hon. the Minister that in certain instances there are teachers who reluctantly accept diploma students with four years’ college training being placed in the same category as a graduate who made an intensive study of his subject for three years and afterwards gained his professional qualification. Then the problem is also being experienced, one which has existed for years under the present system of categories, of the student with an honours degree and the student with a master’s degree being placed on exactly the same scale. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, I should like to confine myself to a more positive subject than the one dealt with by the previous speaker. It is an exceptional privilege for me to be able to do so in this year, 1973, in which we are commemorating the centenary of tertiary education in South Africa. It is an exceptional achievement, particularly in view of the eleven universities for White people which have been established in the course of the past 100 years. At one stage or another, shortly or at the most within ten years, there will be a need for a twelfth university, an Afrikaans-medium university to serve the rapidly expanding and growing community, consisting chiefly of Afrikaans-speaking people, of the northern suburbs of Cape Town. This is an area comprising Bellville, Parow, Goodwood, Thornton, Milnerton, Durbanville, Kraaifontein, Brackenfell, Kuils River and the adjoining divisional council areas. The need for a twelfth university is caused by two particular aspects. In the first place it is caused by the tremendous expansion and increasing density of the population of the northern suburbs. At present the population of Whites alone is 150 000 and that number will increase within twelve years to at least a quarter of a million, and 75% of them are Afrikaans-speaking people. In some municipalities the population doubles every ten years, but in the municipality of Kraaifontein, this has happened over the past five years. In one school in Kraaifontein alone there are 300 pupils in Sub A. This entire area is served by 60 schools with 30 000 pupils, of whom 9 000 are in matric. It can be expected that at least 3 000 of them will be interested in receiving a university education. This is an area in which there are at present 1 500 students studying part-time or full-time at various institutions. But there is an unexploited potential in this area consisting of several hundreds more, if they could only overcome the financial and lodgings problems. At present this area has no teachers’ college. Furthermore, if it is taken into account that it is anticipated that by the year 2000, 95,8% of all White people in South Africa will be resident in the large urban complexes, the urgency of this need is emphasized even more.

In the second place, the need for such an Afrikaans-medium university is supported by certain aspects relating to neighbouring universities. In the first place, there is the University of Cape Town, an English-medium university which has sufficient accommodation for enrolling still larger numbers of students and which is accessible to the English-speaking student of the northern suburbs who can make use of local and available public transport. On the other hand there is the University of Stellenbosch, my own Alma Mater, which I love and shall continue to love, to which I am true and shall always remain true. This is a university with a campus atmosphere and a spirit all of its own. And yet it is a university, too, which has its own individual and pressing problems. To begin with there is the serious problem of public transport to and from the University of Stellenbosch. Already there is tremendous pressure of traffic in comparison to the town’s capacity. There is also a serious accommodation problem, which is going to become far more serious as the university expands. The present enrolment of 8 500 is expected to increase to 13 000 by the year 1990. Unlimited further construction of hostels at Stellenbosch cannot take place for aesthetic and financial reasons. Already the ratio of students to townspeople is virtually 50: 50. Besides that the costs are tremendous. The last university hostel erected, accommodating 317 students, cost R1 400 000, or R4 000 per bed. Furthermore, if one keeps in mind the fact that it is really pathetic that a tremendous number of applications from potential students has to be turned down because accommodation is not available, I think this problem is emphasized even more. The solution to this problem is twofold: Either the establishment of a satellite campus by the University of Stellenbosch in the northern suburbs where limited facilities already exist, or on the other hand, and this may perhaps be the more likely and the more acceptable solution, the establishment of an independent university for this area which, if need be, can start as a teachers’ college.

The real problem is to make a site available on which such a university can be established, either now or in the future when the need exists. Provision must already be made at this stage for such a site, approximately 150 to 200 morgen in extent, on which this institution may eventually be established. Now we find ourselves in the fortunate position that in these areas and in the adjoining areas, particularly in those areas which form part of my own constituency, there are parts which are unplanned and undeveloped as yet and which could be used for this purpose. These areas are strategically situated and would meet these requirements in every respect. The land can probably still be bought at a reasonable price, say for something in the region of R½ million to R¾ million. However, if we wait too long, say 10 years more, we would not be able to acquire a site in this area, or if we could acquire one, it would not be strategically situated, and if we could acquire a strategically situated site, we would find that the costs had risen to such an extent or that as a result of expropriations, including improvements to that site, the cost of acquiring such a piece of land could be between R5 million and R10 million, as it was in the case of the Rand Afrikaans University where more than R4 million had to be paid for 75 morgen of land. Now we are in the fortunate position that we have the beautiful Tygervallei which lends itself to this purpose. There are parts which are unzoned and which would be eminently suitable for the establishment of such a campus before they are devoured by housing schemes and living units. The establishment of this university, whenever it may be necessary, will constitute no threat to the potential of the existing universities in the surrounding areas, just as this was not the case with the Rand Afrikaans University. The Universities of Potchefstroom, Pretoria and the Witwatersrand were not affected; on the contrary, it was a stimulus for an increase in numbers. It is illuminating that opinion polls indicated that a larger percentage of matric pupils are interested in enjoying tertiary education. A survey of this kind conducted over a period of ten years among pupils at 46 Afrikaans-medium schools on the Rand offering university admission subjects, indicated that the percentage of pupils interested in going to university, increased from 48% to 75% over this period of ten years. An opinion poll also indicated that where a university was made available and where it was easy for a person to reach that university without having to make use of expensive boarding facilities, there was a tremendous increase in the numbers of students. Because we in South Africa find ourselves in a young developed country and because ours is a dynamic country, a country with unlimited potential, and because it is essential for us not to allow our manpower not being utilized to the optimum, I now address a friendly request to the hon. the Minister to take note at this early stage, of this rapidly growing need which is developing here in the northern suburbs and surrounding areas. It is also my desire at this stage to bring to the attention of the already existing guide plan committees as well as the local authorities which are continually engaged in planning, continually engaged in annexing new areas, that in their planning they try to make provision for such a site which could eventually serve such a purpose. In conclusion it is also my desire to appeal to the inhabitants—and I believe that we shall get this on the grounds of the goodwill and the sound co-operation and support, financial and otherwise from the inhabitants of this area—to assist us in eventually establishing such an institution, which would also be a monument to the progress of the brain power potential of the studying youth of South Africa, for the benefit of this area and for the benefit of South Africa.

Mr. Chairman, it has become commonplace to say that university education is tremendously expensive. In recent times the budgets of universities have increased by about 10% every year. Because the report of the Van Wyk de Vries Commission, in which it is hoped a new formula will be worked out in regard to the financing of universities, is not yet available, a bottleneck has developed. One can therefore accept that when that formula comes into operation, this amount will most likely be increased even further.

While the university authorities are highly appreciative of the large sums of money made available to them by the State every year, these are still inadequate, particularly for the young universities, which have expensive building programmes and have to acquire expensive material from time to time. For them it is a matter of cutting their coat according to their cloth in order to make ends meet. On the other hand the taxpayer, too, perhaps has the right to ask: Is my money, these millions of rand appearing in the Budget every year for university training being utilized productively? According to calculations every student costs the State as such, something over R1 000. To that must also be added the money the university itself spends on the student, which amounts to about 15%, as well as the amount his parents have to spend on him. The student, therefore, costs the community anything to the tune of R15 000 per annum, and the expenditure is rising all the time particularly because the technical and scientific apparatus which have to be acquired are becoming dearer all the time. I think the university itself will have to find ways and means of bringing about a greater saving in some way or other without a resultant loss of depth in their field of study.

In this regard I should like to express a few thoughts. In the first place I think that the South African universities which attach a great deal of value to their autonomy, would do well to concentrate on the establishment and development of specialized fields of study in the future. I do not think South Africa can afford that the 11 universities should from time to time insist on the establishment of medical, engineering and other faculties. I think there should be greater co-ordination, so that each university may choose for itself a field of study or a particular discipline on which it can concentrate and in which that particular university will be able to specialize. Because we only have relatively few academics who are highly qualified in a particular sphere, and also relatively few students who are able to study productively in that sphere, a discipline could perhaps be built up at such a university which could serve the whole of South Africa and which would compare very favourably with the rest of the world. The best brainpower and apparatus for research purposes could then be concentrated there. In this way proper facilities should also be made available for our fatherland, facilities which could even be recognized internationally, and which could also function at a lower cost to the Treasury.

Secondly I think that we can and must save by excluding from the university, students who do not belong there. In this respect I want to point out two categories. Firstly there are the students—I think that they comprise about 30% of the present students attending university—who do not possess the academic and spiritual qualities to be able to study successfully at a university today. I hope and trust that with the greater emphasis we are placing on differentiation in education and with the greater emphasis on vocational guidance and career orientation in our education, we shall be able in good time to divert to our institutions for technical education, we hope, this stream of students going to our universities, students who drop out and who therefore mean a tremendous loss to the State. Today I want to address another forceful appeal that these institutions, technical colleges and institutions for advanced technical education, be developed and that some of them should, if possible, be granted a higher status, to enable them to train the kind of people of whom there is such a shortage here, for example technologists, technicians and scientists on a lower grade, and even engineers. It should even be possible for these institutions to award engineering diplomas to enable the universities only to perform the higher academic functions. The technical colleges, or technical universities, as they are also sometimes known abroad—I may say in passing that diplomas in engineering are in fact awarded by such institutions in countries such as Germany and Holland—will be able to perform these other functions to which I have referred. I think that this is another way in which we could save a great deal.

Then I come to the second group of students who do not belong at universities, i.e. those students who go to university, not to study, but to indulge in permissiveness and politics. This demonstrating faction with their unkempt hair and beards, with their unconventional and often untidy clothes, who fortunately only comprise about 5% or less of our student population particularly at our English universities, do not belong at our South African universities. I think that it is time for us to say loudly and clearly to the university authorities which are so piously jealous of their autonomy, that the people of South Africa are sick and tired of subsidizing these people to go to university and undermine the South African way of life. The taxpayer is no longer prepared to tolerate this. I think why some of our universities are not capable of taking steps against these people, is because the objectives are not clearly formulated and defined for these educational institutions to understand. Under different circumstances, the university of the middle ages aimed at retaining academic freedom and academic autonomy. Our education institutions are still clinging to these two objectives today. But, my goodness, we have passed that stage long ago. Our universities must not adopt a non-committal attitude towards the issues affecting the continued existence of our people. We are a Christian, Western people. The whole of our civilization and the whole of our history are based on the Christian, Western civilization. Our aim and aspirations in South Africa, the objective we have set ourselves, are the extension of this very Christian, Western civilization on this continent. If we do not strive to achieve that objective, we shall fail, and therefore it must also be the task and the calling of a university to be grounded in these objectives and to bring these objectives home to its students. If that is the case, it will be able to take steps against these evil-doers who want to undermine our morals, our religion and our way of life.

Mr. Chairman, I agree with the hon. member for Algoa as regards his statement that he hopes some of our university institutions will be able to expand in specialized directions. This is a good idea. In this regard I call to mind the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, for example, which has expanded more in a technical and scientific direction and has become one of the greatest universities in the world. Here, too, the department is beginning to think along those lines in regard to the training of machinists, whose training is now being centralized at Dunnottar in the Transvaal. However, I do not agree with the hon. member in his rejection of the old traditional policy of academic freedom. Indeed, I believe that it is only when one has academic freedom, where one can have conflicting opinions and conflicting information on matters, that one can find the truth. One does not find the truth if one studies in one direction alone.

Sir, I have a few bones to pick with the hon. the Minister of National Education. Yesterday in his reply, after I had refrained from making any personal remarks whatsoever, he saw fit to make quite a number of personal attacks on me, to which I want to take the strongest exception. For example, he made sneering remarks about my position as chairman of the education group of the United Party, but let me say this to the hon. the Minister: My appointment was approved by my leader and the caucus of the United Party, while he was imported as leader of the Free State and virtually half of his entire province was opposed to him on his appointment. He poses as the great champion of Christian National Education, but he is the man who sat with folded hands when Lourenço Marques radio was taken over by the SABC, and when the religious broadcasts which had been made for 36 years on that radio service, were discontinued. He sat with folded hands and looked on when the message of the Cross was replaced by the message of instant coffee, merely for the sake of making money from advertisements.

Sir, if the hon. the Minister wants to be personal, then I can also be personal, but I am leaving it at that. I want to know why he left unanswered so many of the questions which we on this side of the House had put to him. Where is his reply to the question concerning the matter of over-organization in the department? Where is his reply in regard to these questionnaires of the Human Sciences Research Council, of which I have the English version here and which are ostensibly “confidential”? What do these questions have to do with television? What do they have to do with the future television programmes which we are going to have? Here is an example of the kind of question which is put to thousands of people.

If the relationships between theories and facts are not immediately evident, do you see no point in trying to find them?

†Sir, that is a very good question to put to any Minister of this Cabinet. They would probably say that they see no point in it. There are other equally stupid questions in this questionnaire—

Sir, what have these questions got to do with television? We as taxpayers are footing the bill for the Human Sciences Research Council to send out questionnaires of this nature. For what purpose?

*Sir, I have objected to the making of too many appointments to committees from one language group, and the hon. the Minister has not replied to that. I asked him to do something in regard to the Nico Malan Theatre. When am I going to get a reply to that? I pointed out to him the shortcomings in the Language Service Bureau. Something must be done in this connection. What is he going to do in this connection? I have pointed out to him this ridiculous report by the Film Board, probably the most expensive report in the history of South Africa. Only 100 of these reports were printed at a cost of R690 and the report consists of 20 pages. In this way the taxpayer’s money is wasted on this report of the Film Board which falls under the hon. the Minister.

†Mr. Chairman, I demand of this hon. Minister that he should act as a Minister and not as a political popinjay.

*I do not want to say a great deal about the SABC. I do not have the time for that. The answer to the activities of the SABC is supplied in this article from Rapport which I have here, in which it is said (translation)—

It contains a survey by an independent public opinion research group, Market and Opinion Research, and in it they came up with the following independent finding regarding the SABC (translation)—

This independent report on the SABC went on to say—

Now, this is not me; this is an opinion survey over the whole of South Africa by a large independent company, and published in Rapport.

†Sir, when television comes there is going to be a greater problem in regard to the credibility of the news given over television. I want the hon. the Minister to give his attention to this matter at this stage already. We realize that more listeners listen in to the news over the radio than all the people reading the daily papers in South Africa, and today, with so many of the newspapers becoming political party organs and losing credibility, and with their advertisers also losing the credibility which they deserve, there could be a chance and a great opportunity for an independent television news service in South Africa. Television has a great opportunity of becoming such an independent organ of news and communication, giving both sides of political issues from the point of view of the major political parties.

Last year the hon. the Minister said in Parliament that he intended introducing legislation to establish a body which, on behalf of and in the interests of the public, would serve the Government and the SABC in an advisory capacity. I am not going to condemn that body immediately because there may be some good in that advisory body if it is an open body, if its reports can be tabled and if representatives of the United Party as well as of the Government are on that particular body, to act as a watch-dog and to see to the impartiality of the television service. I would like to know when this legislation promised last year is coming.

Sir, what is happening to television and the introduction of television? The hon. the Minister is sitting on a huge number of reports at the moment. He had his television advisory committee and they reported to him on the availability, the recruitment and the training of technical staff, on common aerial and cable television systems, on the economic and financial implications of television, on the direct liability of the Government, on the manpower situation and so forth. He has all these reports yet the country does not know what is happening in regard to them.

In particular we are interested to know what those reports say about the manpower problem in regard to television and about the financing of this new medium. These are the two biggest problems that lie ahead. The first one is the manpower problem. You have to train people to instruct technicians but you have to train the people to train those people. Some of them have been imported. We only have three years until television is introduced in this country and it takes up to three years to train an instructor. After that he has to train your technicians and your other minor workers in the television industry. Sir, time is getting short and I am not satisfied that the Department of Education is doing sufficient in that regard. I know that the colleges of higher technical education are preparing and have started syllabuses, some of them, but I say not enough has been done. Is he taking cognizance of the fact that the vast majority of our television industry workers, particularly the semi-skiled technicians, will have to be non-Whites, as they are today in the radio industry for the simple reason that we do not have sufficient Whites to do the work? [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, we have an Afrikaans proverb saying that the ways of woman are incomprehensible. I think that this afternoon one may rightly say that the ways of the United Party are incomprehensible. The hon. member for Orange Grove made a great fuss about the high printing costs of the annual report of the Film Board, but I am prepared to bet every cent I own that if no printed annual report had appeared, it would have been precisely the member for Orange Grove who would have bezn the first to kick up a fuss about that. I do not intend to react to his arguments— I have only about five minutes—but there is something which I cannot simply let pass. I want to point out that his personal attack on the hon. the Minister is completely uncalled for and certainly does him no credit as a senior front bencher of the United Party.

This afternoon I want to speak again about a matter which I have raised under this Vote in the past. It is a matter which I sincerely believe to be of very great importance to us in South Africa. I am referring to the position of our artists, and more especially our writers and poets. Before I come to that, I must not let the opportunity slip without expressing a few words of great appreciation for the work which has been done in the cultural field by the Department of National Education’s division for the promotion of culture, as is reflected in the latest annual report. At the same time I want to say that it is a very neat and well-produced annual report. In expressing my appreciation for this here I am including everyone from the Minister to the officers who dealt with this matter.

When we come to the position of our artists and look at page 43 under the heading “Financial Support for South African Authors”, we notice that in the year under review R2 321 was spent on the purchase of works by South African authors. One is very grateful for that amount being used for this purpose in this specific year, but I do not exaggerate if I say that we think it is far too little.

This afternoon I really want to plead— later on I will make certain suggestions— that the hon. the Minister should very seriously consider doing even more in future as regards this matter. I just want to say in passing, however, that I am concerned about some authors whom I see from the annual report have benefited in this specific way. I do not want to talk about that this afternoon, but the authors I have in mind are well known for trying to become controversial figures, and for never having done anything in the least to bring to the fore through their work that which is good and respectable in the people of South Africa. I say that one is concerned about this, because it is one of the difficulties our writers have that those who are really trying to maintain high moral standards through their works of creation, are the very writers who are being ignored and brushed aside by both the publisher and the critic, whom they in fact have to depend on for their existence. If one looks at this situation, one sees that under normal circumstances a writer has to produce four works per year in order to receive an income of R1 000. All they actually earn is R250 per book. We must give some encouragement to the good writer, to the person who is really able to reflect the spiritual life of our people through his work. I want to plead with the hon. the Minister that he should give very serious consideration to developing that principle further, a principle which is already accepted, if one looks at page 43 of the report, under the heading which deals with commissions given to writers. I think much more could be done along these specific lines.

That is why I, in conclusion, should like to tie this to another thought. As it will next year be 50 years since Gen. Hertzog first became Prime Minister of South Africa, I think that the stress must be placed on him as a person, but also more specifically, and this is what I am hoping for, on the central idea he has left to our people. It was the best inheritance that could have been left to any people, and that was what he sought to achieve, i.e. “South Africa first”. I want to suggest to the hon. the Minister, in view of that and the special occasion which will be created, to give a commission or organize a competition for a drama to be written on the life and aspirations of Gen. Hertzog. A fitting prize should be offered for that drama, and if hon. members ask me what that prize money should be, I want to say that for this special occasion it should be nothing less than R10 000. Such a drama should also be capable of being made into a film and should also be capable in time to be adapted for the purposes of the television that is coming to us. I think we have an opportunity here of leaving South Africa a truly great spiritual inheritance, and I want to plead very seriously with the hon. the Minister to give his attention to this.

Mr. Chairman, this afternoon I should like briefly to pay tribute to the National Trade School at Westlake. Over the past seven years I have watched this trade school grow and during this period trees and lawns have been planted, new recreational facilities have been created, as well as new working facilities, and a fine dining hall has been built in which excellent food is served. The young men who attend the National Trade School at Westlake are very proud to wear the blazers of that institution. Discipline is maintained in a very fine way at that school, and I should like to pay tribute in particular to the principal of the school, Mr. Greeff, for his inspiring leadership and the dedicated service which he and his staff render to the young men being trained.

However, I should like to bring a few facts to the attention of the hon. the Minister. To begin with I want to bring to his attention the fact that the courses offered there are not widely enough advertised. The salaries, and particularly the salaries of those who are married, are inadequate. Many White men have to leave school after Std. 8, owing to their poverty, and years later they go to the trade school because they realize that they need further training. There are many of them who are unable to complete their courses as a result of the inadequate salaries which they receive.

Then there is another point which I want to raise. I want to refer to the divided control which exists. As the hon. the Minister knows, the National Trade School falls under the control of the Department of National Education, as well as under the Department of Labour. In many respects this creates confusion, and I want to express the hope this afternoon that the hon. the Minister will give attention to the possibility of his department taking over the trade school altogether from the Department of Labour.

†I want to say a few words about our National Anthem, “Die Stem”, this afternoon. I was in Johannesburg last week when the ceremony was held in Parliament during which the original writing of “Die Stem” was presented to Parliament and during which the musical score which was written by Rev. M. L. de Villiers was presented to the House. However, I listened to the programme as it was broadcast by the South African Broadcasting Corporation, and I must say that it was a most impressive ceremony. It was certainly worthy of commemorating a very great event, the presentation of Langenhoven’s greatest patriotic work to Parliament. I think that the music of Rev. M. L. de Villiers, which was presented to Parliament, is equally important. It is noteworthy that it was written in my constituency in the personage of the Dutch Reformed Church. It is stirring martial music, music which arouses our emotions and awakens our patriotic feelings. One has only to watch school children, national servicemen, units of our armed forces standing to attention at the opening of Parliament, and Springbok teams standing to attention at the beginning of a test match, to notice and feel the deep emotions that are aroused when our National Anthem is sung. It is something which I think is publicly shared by all South Africans. The musical score captivates us, the lyrics fill us with price. They were written by Langenhoven in what must have been the most patriotic moment of his life. I think they are moving, sincere and descriptive.

However, I would say that on official occasions such as the last one, the words lose some of their power and effect if they are also translated. There have been many sincere and laborious attempts to produce a good English version of “Die Stem van Suid-Afrika”. I think that the present version that has been produced is an outstanding presentation, but it is not the same as the original. So far as I am concerned, “Die Stem” is quite untranslatable. It has come to be accepted and loved by all of us in South Africa in its original language. I think it sounds artificial, stilted and unreal in translation just as the patriotic works of a South African Kipling and Macaulay would sound stilted and artificial if they were translated into Afrikaans.

I think that “Die Stem” is perhaps the most compelling symbol of South African patriotism that we have. It is one of the greatest unifying factors that we have in South Africa. As I see it, there is no place in patriotism for sectionalism and to sing “Die Stem” in both languages is, to my mind, to emphasize sectionalism. Let us sing in South Africa “Die Stem van Suid-Afrika” together, with the same music and in the same words as those in which Langenhoven wrote it.

Mr. Chairman, looking at Vote No. 30— “National Education”, one notices that an amount of R140 634 000 has been estimated this year, which is an increase of R26 029 000 compared to last year’s amount. One is very glad to see that so much is being ploughed back to educate the youth of our people in order to be a future asset to our country. But when one looks at manpower survey No. 9 of the Department of Labour one notices with concern that, especially as regards professional people in South Africa, there is a great shortage. South Africa with its great potention and its possibilities cannot afford such a tremendous shortage of professional people.

In the field of differentiated education the department and the entire education division of our national economy have made very good progress. We are very grateful for the differentiated education and the psychological services involved in this for which provision has been made. There is one small problem I just want to mention in passing. When, during the reconnoitring stage, the pupils at the schools are seeking a course, and are guided in their determination of such a course, the parents still have the final say. That is probably the way it has to be, but then one would just like to appeal to parents to let themselves be guided more by those people who are specially trained to orientate and lead the child in the right direction.

I want to come to tertiary training. Our university system is 100 years old this year. It began very modestly and humbly in 1873, and today we have eleven universities for Whites in the Republic of South Africa. The growth of our university system is inseparably linked to the growth of the South African economy. The object of these institutions is and must be to provide the manpower where it is most necessary and to develop the manpower, which must be developed, in such a way that we shall obtain the optimum utilization of our manpower. The manpower which is annually supplied to the South African national economy by these institutions, must be qualified for the task that awaits them. South Africa is a young country with a very great potential, and that is why we must be that much more careful in the choice of the courses in which we have to train our people so that they are trained for the correct professions. I want to refer specifically to a very grave shortage in our country, i.e. the shortage of engineers. The economic growth of our country and our productivity are to a very large extend dependent upon engineers. I think we could possibly make an attempt to select persons on a selective basis, to an even greater extent, so that more of our young people will take this course of study and so that degrees in engineering will be awarded to people who can contribute to the growth and the development of our country in a more useful and optimal fashion. In spite of the expected increase in engineering degrees to 1 000 per year, there will, by 1980, according to this survey, be a shortage of 2 000 engineers. When we look at these vacancies as far as engineering is concerned, it causes us concern. The fact is that South Africa is faced with a tremendous shortage of these people. One of the universities awarded 1 500 degrees and diplomas last year. Only 48 of those degrees were awarded to new doctors, while 57 were awarded to new engineers. When this happens, one must rightly express concern and then the question arises as to whether we should not give much more attention to this selection and to assistance for these people, since we are spending so much money on training, so that they will select the correct courses for study and can be better utilized for the progress of South Africa.

Mr. Chairman, my contribution under this Vote has little to do with education, but unfortunately this is the only Vote under which I am able to raise it. I want to talk about the cemeteries of prisoners of war. In Ceylon, for example, but in other countries too, of course, there are two cemeteries in which people, mostly from the Free State, who died there during their exile are buried. One of these cemeteries some distance away from Colombo, the capital of Ceylon, is very well tended by the Ceylonese Government. There is a military camp which virtually borders on the cemetery. The other cemetery is situated very near Colombo, the capital city. I fear that nothing at all is being done to maintain this latter cemetery. On behalf of all South Africans, English speaking and Afrikaans speaking, I should like to express my gratitude to the Ceylonese Government for the way in which they are keeping the one cemetery in order. Hon. members may be interested to know that the Ceylonese Government votes money in its Budget to keep that one cemetery clean, neat and orderly. We are certainly all grateful for that. But, Sir, as you know, relations between ourselves and Ceylon are not too good at present. I think that the Ceylonese Government and the population of Ceylon would perhaps appreciate our compensating in small measure that small region—it has nothing to do with politics—by sending them some token of our gratitude. That state, although it differs from us politically, does have the decency and humanity to do what we should really do, and that is to maintain the cemeteries of our own former citizens. I have been wondering whether the Minister would not consider asking the Government to get in touch with the Ceylonese Government and, in the first place, convey our thanks for what they have done. In the second place, I have been wondering whether the Minister would not perhaps ask the Prime Minister and the Government to send them some token of our appreciation. Perhaps dried fruit or something could be sent to a military camp for those people who do that work, just to show that we appreciate the decency of that people, which is perhaps somewhat estranged from us at present, but whose history has coincided with ours to such a marked extent, even to the extent that they, like us, were once a Dutch colony. It is interesting to note that there are still people in Ceylon who call themselves “burghers”. There are “burghers”, Cingalese and Tamils. I have been wondering, when we thank those people and are able to show them in one way or another that we appreciate their humanity and decency, whether we could not also make representations requesting permission to send a person or committee to Ceylon to see whether the bodies in the cemetery just outside Colombo could not be exhumed and reinterred somewhere in Ceylon at a place where the grave could be kept orderly and neat. I have seen with my own eves people from South Africa, some of whom have family buried there— particularly from the Free State because it was chiefly Free Staters who died there— gratefully taking cognizance of the names of the people who died there. I know that it would meet with the approval of both sides of the House and of all sections of the population if we were to do something to rectify that situation. You know, Sir, it does not help a people to say that we honour those people who made the ultimate sacrifice but to forget about them altogether when they are no longer there. What kind of future may a people expect which does not honour and respect its heroes of the past? I thought I would just bring this matter to the attention of the Minister in the few minutes at my disposal. I hope that he will make the necessary representations, if he and the Government agree with this, and that we will be able to do something in this connection without being obsequious. I do not think they expect anything from us. I believe that the population of Ceylon—where they have perhaps the purest form of their religion in the world according to which one may not kill —would appreciate our sending a small token of our appreciation to them.

Mr. Chairman, today I should like to deal with special education. At a school for special education the following aspects are of cardinal importance: (1) Individually planned education for each individual child; (2) a very good medical, remedial and operative programme; and (3) the necessary facilities and people for the personal care of pupils suffering from a wide range of handicaps. It is my conviction that as far as education and medical affairs are concerned, the Department of National Education need not take a backseat to any country in the world. Furthermore, it is clear that this department has also made provision in a very praiseworthy manner for the necessary facilities to care for the pupils. Examples of this are our fine buildings for our cerebral palsied pupils, our schools for the deaf and the blind and schools for the hard of hearing and for partially sighted pupils, as well as the schools for epileptics and the physically handicapped, eloquent examples which do credit to the department.

These schools are also extremely well equipped with the best equipment available. The one major shortcoming is that the staff for the care of these people are not forthcoming. This is a serious problem. Although things are difficult, the position in regard to matrons is still such that schools are able to cope. A crisis has arisen in regard to supervisory staff, viz. supervisory hostel staff to give the pupils the same care after hours as they would have had at home. I happen to know that at one school for special education, which has vacancies for 20 people on their supervisory staff, not one person can be recruited. The reasons for this are the following: Supervisory hostel personnel who must live in flats in the hostels for supervisory purposes, must pay 12½% of their salary and allowance. There is a concession in that this percentage is based on the salary as it was at 31st December, 1970, but this is a concession which may change. What is more, staff are concerned about the fact that they must pay rent on an allowance which is specially given to them because they are on the staff of a school for special education.

If they are accommodated in official houses or flats, they do not qualify for a housing subsidy. This means that they are penalized because they are performing an essential service. The fellow staff member of such a person receives a supplement to his salary to enable him to acquire his own house, which may appreciate in value in future.

A member of the supervisory staff earns R26 per month, and this applies only to the months in which he serves. It is therefore clear that the rent for housing is unrealistically high and the compensation unrealistically low. In addition he forfeits the privilege of a housing subsidy.

There is a world of difference between the care of pupils in schools for special education and care in other schools. For example, provision must be made for pupils who have to be bathed, fed, clothed and transported. There are also pupils who are incontinent and have no control over bowels or bladder. Such children must be cared for by the supervisory staff. They are usually children who have been injured in motor accidents and other accidents. The other day I saw a little girl who had suffered a bullet wound in her back. These people have no sense of touch and can easily injure themselves, burn themselves or develop bedsores. The care of such pupils must be in the hands of highly responsible people with the right disposition. I may point out further that these services must usually be performed when the non-White staff are off duty, and therefore the White staff must not only supervise, but perform these services themselves.

Conditions at the department’s schools for special education which are subsidized and which fall under control boards, are completely different because the control boards make provision for this staff. Therefore, the staff employed at schools run exclusively by the State, are badly off although they fall under the same department. The comparison with what provincial departments do for their staff, staff who deal with healthy children, may also be considered fruitfully.

The parent only sends his helpless, weak child to a school for special education if he knows unconditionally that his child will be cared for and looked after. Although medical and educational aspects are very important, the aspect of care is the most important. It therefore goes without saying that the staff member with the right disposition, temperament and love must be encouraged, and ways and means must be found to enable him to perform this service. Without the right care we might as well close down our wonderful schools for special education.

Mr. Chairman, the adjournment of the debate yesterday also interrupted my speech, and at that very point where I was referring to the speech made by the hon. member for Wynberg. She is not here this afternoon; she sent me a note to let me know that she apologized, but that she had other duties to attend to elsewhere. However, I must come back to the speech of the hon. member and reply to a few points which she touched upon. You will recall, Sir, that, as I mentioned, we actually had two points yesterday in justification of the attitude of two hon. members on the Opposition side. I referred to the hon. member for Orange Grove, who stated his standpoint and subtly defended what he had advocated in the Schlebusch Commission, but who at the same time also tried to a certain extent to win the favour of the students in general. Opposed to that we had the standpoint of the hon. member for Wynberg, which was aimed solely at justifying her attitude in regard to this matter. I now want to ask, with all the earnestness at my disposal: How long does the United Party want to sit on two stools in regard to important matters? I maintain that if we had adopted a firm standpoint in respect of student activism, to which various speakers referred this afternoon, earlier, as the hon. member for Germiston, inter alia, also said, we would not have had half of these difficulties which we experienced last year and this year. The hon. member made interesting references to problems which the students of today allegedly have. I referred to that and said that she should in fact have said that these are problems of our youth. The hon. member for Albany and certain speakers on my side also referred to that.

I want to tell you, Sir, that we are not unaware of, and are not indifferent to, the problems of youth. It is not a phenomenon of today. It is a phenomenon present in mankind since the earliest centuries. We know there is frustration not only among students but among many young people. They must learn to find their place in society. They are seeking the truth. They are critically disposed, but this is nothing new; it has always been like this. What I object to, however, is that the hon. member for Wynberg tried to simplify the problem as if it were a problem which existed only at the English-language universities in this country. She said they were under greater pressure than the students at the Afrikaans-language universities. Sir, greater nonsense I have not yet heard from an informed person like the hon. member for Wynberg, even if I have to say this now in her absence. I want the hon. member for Wynberg as well as other hon. members in this House to take into consideration the fact that our youth does not only consist of people who are attending universities. There are thousands of our young people who find work after leaving school. They are suffering under those same problems, as a result of the so-called generation gap. But they are not being pampered and they are not being interceded for in this Parliament. They must stand on their own feet and they must make their own way through life, as successfully or unsuccessfully as they can. And, I may tell you, Sir, many of them who have the responsibility to be active and productive themselves in society are an example to many students of this kind who do not go to universities to study; that kind to whom the hon. member for Algoa referred earlier. Sir, that is all I want to say about this aspect, but I want to object most strongly to what the hon. member for Wynberg alleged, viz. that the Prime Minister is seeking a confrontation with the students, and more specifically with the students of English-language universities. I think it is scandalous that the hon. member should have made such a remark, because I know her to be a responsible person. I want to say that it is the duty of the Prime Minister to confront students who behave like these elements with which the Schlebusch Commission Report was concerned. I think the Government has been very lenient with the students over a very long period of time. Do you recall, Sir, how two years ago I participated on behalf of the Government here in a debate dealing with this very matter, and how I had previously warned at one party congress after another that the universities should put their own houses in order; that the students should behave in a responsible way; that we should help to support the conservative element— the silent majority—as I called them? It all fell on deaf ears. Sir, when the students act as some of them acted it is the duty of the Prime Minister to confront them, and let there be no doubt in the minds of anyone in this hon. House or in South Africa that this Government, under the leadership of the Prime Minister, will not hestitate to take action against them if they want to disrupt the academic activities at our universities in this way. Sir, the hon. member for Wynberg said that it was wrong to compare what was happening here among our students with what was happening overseas. Sir, I want to tell you—and on this point I agree wholeheartedly with the hon. member for Rissik who knew what he was talking about—that if we are not prepared to learn a lesson from what happened overseas among the students, we are closing our eyes to reality. Sir, I want to quote to you one sentence from what the President of the Stanford University said; he said—

Sir, this was a very serious warning which came from a responsible person, and I think it is this warning which the members of the Schlebusch Commission also headed when the facts were presented to them. It would have been weak and irresponsible of any Government not to have acted when it had such information before it.

Sir, next I want to proceed to deal with the matter of television, before I go further into the aspect of education about which there is still a great deal to be said. The hon. member for Orange Grove was the first to raise this matter, and he saw fit, because I added a few well-intentioned little warnings to my congratulations yesterday evening, to say that I had made a personal attack on him. I want to tell him that if I want to be personal, I could make far more cutting remarks than I did address to him. When he discussed my Senatorship and my Free State leadership, I assumed that he was of course a regular reader of this nasty little U.P. pamphlet Voorwaarts—Onwards, and that that was also where he got his information from. Sir, I just want to inform him that this report in this little pamphlet is incorrect, and that he was also incorrect. It is interesting to know that I was elected to be a Free State Senator by the Free State electoral college. I was not appointed from above as he thought. What is more, when I became leader of the party in the Free State, I was the only Free Stater by birth who was a candidate in that election, and the Free Staters elected me with a far greater than two-thirds majority. I shall leave that little matter at that.

The hon. member objected to my not replying to his questions. I told him in the first part of my reply to this debate that it was impossible to reply to his questions because he had not motivated any of the statements he made. I did not know what he wanted. I shall try to reply to as many of them as my time allows. I want to begin with his inquiries, and those of the hon. member for Florida, in regard to television.

I want to begin with the hon. member for Florida who in the first place discussed political broadcasts on television. He is of course a very young member in this House. In parentheses, he also apologized for not being able to be present here now. He is still a very young member in this House and he has of course forgotten that we also had political broadcasts in 1948, in which, with the co-operation of the two parties, we afforded one another opportunities of making speeches over the radio. Sir, you know what the result of the 1948 election was. That is why the United Party is still sitting where it is. Now I want to inform him that political broadcasts on television are something in regard to which no decision has been reached at this stage. But it goes without saying that a decision will have to be reached in regard to these only if the parties agree. If they agree to participate in television programmes, political television programmes, I could imagine what the consequences would be for the United Party if they were to act as they have been acting recently. [Interjections.] The hon. member for Florida also referred to the commencing date of television, and he quoted from the annual report of the SABC. Now I must inform you, and I want to make this point very clear, that unfortunately an error crept in, which apparently went unnoticed by the hon. member, but as an honest person I shall inform him of this. There is a difference between the Afrikaans version and the English version regarding this particular point. The fact of the matter is that the English version here is correct, viz. that a start will be made with full-scale television broadcasts in January, 1976; that at this stage a date has not yet been set for when a start will be made with trial broadcasts in 1975, but that it is a date on which the Cabinet will decide. I can also state here that the Cabinet has decided that those trial broadcasts will not begin before the general election. Therefore the hon. member need not be afraid that television will be used against the United Party in the election. [Interjections.] We could discuss that further.

I now want to come to the really important points which were raised here by the hon. member for Orange Grove and partially, too, by the hon. member for Florida. The first point I want to mention is the financing. You will know, Sir, that this is one aspect in regard to which no statement has yet been made to the public. I just want to state now that the Cabinet has decided that the capital and establishment costs of the television service will be financed with loans raised in consultation with the Minister of Finance abroad as well as here in South Africa. In the second place the SABC will be exempted from sales duty and customs and excise duties on equipment which it needs to provide this service. In the third place the Government has in principle declared itself prepared, in the light of the experience acquired with the service and when the full financial implications have become clear, to consider further financial implications in the liquidation of the deficits which will obviously accumulate during the first five years of the service. Hon. members are aware that two foreign loans have already been raised. Mention is also made of this in the report, and therefore I need not go into it.

However, I want to state in general that I think the progress which has been made with the television project has really been astonishing and gratifying. If the details are taken into consideration it really gives one reason to feel grateful. I want to quote what Keith Dunford wrote in Communica, the official publication of the Public Liaison Institute of South Africa, in June, 1971—

That is precisely what the SABC is seeking to achieve—a service which benefits from all the research and experience of the rest of the world, a service as good as we can make it, a service which will be comparable with the best in comparable countries.

May I ask the hon. the Minister a question? Could the hon. the Minister tell us whether the statement which he made in regard to the advertising industry as it will apply to television still stands, and whether any decision has been made in regard to the proposal that a portion of the revenue of the newspapers from advertisements should be relinquished for the television service?

No decision was ever taken to the effect that a portion of the revenue of newspapers from advertisements would have to be relinquished for television.

But there was such a proposal.

The announcement which I made on 17th October, 1972, that the television service would, at least during its initial years, be without advertisements, still stands today. In that same announcement I went on to say that proposals in regard to the way in which the service should be financed were still under consideration, and that decisions in this regard would in due course be made known. This I have consequently done with my announcement this afternoon.

Are further decisions in regard to this still to be made?

No, this is the announcement which I have just made in regard to financing.

I come next to the problem of the training and provision of technicians. I want to say that the Technical Advisory Committee, and a special sub-committee which it had at its disposal for this purpose, has with due consideration of all the available data, and on the basis of the utilization of the most modern methods and techniques, estimated the need for and the availability of manpower for television. I shall mention a few figures in a moment, but I want to emphasize that with all these precautionary measures which have been taken, these still remain mere estimates. No one can guarantee that these will eventually prove to be correct. The Technical Advisory Committee found that technical staff were required by three organizations in particular, viz. the SABC. the Post Office and the industry. They distinguished between three categories of technical staff.

In the first place they mentioned operational staff, i.e. persons with less than one year’s training. It is estimated that approximately 2 000 of them will be required for Phase 1 of the television service. In the second place they found that skilled staff, i.e. persons having from one to three years’ training, would be required, and that of these persons at least 150 would have to be trained for the first phase of the television service. In the third place they found that there would have to be highly skilled staff, i.e. engineers and highly-trained technicians who had undergone training for three years and more. Of these approximately 900 are required. It goes without saying that these numbers which I have just mentioned need not all be available at once. As the service develops more of them will obviously be required and set to work. These numbers which I have now mentioned are the estimated numbers. I also want to point out that progress is being made in the scientific sphere, particularly in regard to the development of the integrated circuit which will quite probably make it possible that far fewer operational staff will be required. One must bear in mind that the repair and maintenance work which has to be done in regard to television sets consists mostly of the possibility of establishing with the aid of certain simple, routine tests whether certain modules are defective. What has to be done then is that the entire module, with its integrated circuit, has to be replaced. In other words, it is not a case of one having to take the entire set to the workshop where they fiddle about with it soldering all the connections together one by one; it is quite simply a replacement of a defective module, and with that the matter has been disposed of. With reference to what the hon. member for Florida asked. I also want to say that it is obvious that the non-Whites will, within the framework of our labour pattern, have to play a part in regard to the television service The training of non-Whites obviously does not fall under my Department, but is in the first place a task for the firms involved in this, and they will have to organize in-service training. In fact, they are doing so. In addition there are certain technical colleges for Coloureds and Indians, and for Bantu in their homelands, where they can be trained. I take it that the industrialists or employers, in the same way as they state to the colleges the need for such training in the case of Whites, will also bring this home where it belongs. It is also interesting to know that one-third of the sets, rented or owned, will be rented or bought by non-White viewers. That is what the market survey figures revealed. Therefore it goes without saying that they will have to learn to be of assistance to their own people as well in this connection.

Where do these people come from? The hon. member for Florida asked with every justification what the SABC and the Department of National Education were doing in regard to training the required staff. I can furnish hon. members with interesting particulars. Firstly, as far as my own Department is concerned, I want to inform hon. members that highly trained technicians will initially be trained only at the Witwatersrand College for Advanced Technical Education. This will not be training with which a start will be made from scratch, but it will be supplementary training for the National Diploma for Technicians, with television as a subject which is already being offered at all six Colleges for Advanced Technical Education. It is in other words, a course which builds on a foundation which was laid a long time ago. Obviously the training of highly skilled technicians will, as the need exists, be expanded to the other Colleges for Advanced Technical Education. But there are certain conditions, viz. that every prospective technician will have to be employed by a firm which sponsors his studies—and this is important—and which will also be able to provide him afterwards with in-service training in the factory in which he is working. From next year onwards my Department will be able to train service and installing technicians. We shall do so in the following way: In the first place we want to draw a lecturer or a teacher from each of the 16 most important colleges in the country to provide him with one period of 10 to 12 weeks’ intensive training at the Witwatersrand College for Advanced Technical Education. For this purpose an amount of R22 500 has been budgeted for in our Estimates this year under subhead “O” for equipment which has to be used for training purposes there. Certain laboratories for practical work are being equipped, and these people will be trained there. Once the first group has been trained, the course will be repeated for the next group of 16. In this way we will continue to provide an adequate number of instructors for the training of service and installing technicians. The method of training in all the categories will eventually include certain systems, and it will be flexible enough to allow a transfer from the one to the other. In the first place, obviously, there is fulltime attendance of courses at some college or other; then there is the group training, the so-called block release, which is divided up on the basis of the three-term year, which is a variation of the staggered semester course; and then there is the night class system. It will also be possible to use a combination of all these systems. That is the way in which my Department has for a considerable time been providing this training, which is actually preliminary training before the more specialized TV training.

Hon. members asked with justification what the SABC is doing to supply its needs, for this is obviously the body which is very closely involved in this matter. The SABC calculates, and this, too, is only an estimate, that it will require approximately 1 000 staff members for the proper operation of the first phase. Nor does that mean, as I have already said, that the full 1 000 have to be available on the day on which the service commences. The SABC has, with a view to the training of its own staff which it has over the years been doing very effectively in respect of the radio service, established a training centre which consists of a TV studio covering an area of almost 200 m². This contains programme and electronic control areas, areas for videotape machines and teleciné equipment, as well as fundamental artists’ facilities. It has been installed in the new broadcasting centre which is going up in Johannesburg. Since I am discussing this, I can tell you that 20% of the work there has already been completed, and that the target date for the completion is still July of next year. A certain Mr. Leo van der Walt is in charge of this training centre of the SABC’s television service. He underwent an intensive training course on television overseas. Because people were not available in South Africa instructors were recruited from abroad. The first five, who came from the United Kingdom and Canada, have already accepted employment and are working in Johannesburg. The courses will last for six months and the students will be trained in groups of 60. One group will consist of the operating staff and the other group of the programme staff. A first course has already commenced, on 1st May, a shorter course, while the first course for programme staff will commence on 1st June. In addition I want to say that the technical staff of the SABC have, from time to time since January, 1973, been receiving intensive training from the suppliers of television equipment in Johannesburg in regard to electronic and other apparatus required by the training centre. I also want to mention that at present 62 SABC students are enrolled at the various colleges in the country. These are students who are working and who are passing their exams. The pass percentage among all the students enrolled this year by the SABC was 75%. For more advanced studies the SABC also offers bursaries to advanced engineering students. During the past three years, for example, it has with the help of bursaries provided nine engineers with full training. At the moment there are ten others who are studying with bursaries from the SABC; three of them are in their first year. The Department of National Education has therefore created the training facilities, in so far as it is concerned in this, while the SABC has also done its duty.

Although the hon. member for Orange Grove did not ask this, I also want to inform him of what the industry itself is doing. The department of Industries imposed very strict requirements on the six firms with whom negotiations are in progress in regard to the manufacture of sets. In the first place it was made clear to them that they will not be allowed to lure staff away who are working for essential telecommunications networks, and as military personnel. They know that they will have to supply their own needs, and that they must not entice staff away from other organizations which need that staff just as badly for essential services. In the second place, a questionnaire was sent to each one of them. In that questionnaire they had to indicate, in respect of each of these three categories of staff, how many of each they have available in their organization, how many they are training and what they are doing to train them, and what the possibility is of recruiting people from abroad. These replies are still being awaited. I have examined one draft reply, from which I obtained a few particulars which I should like to mention here because they are very indicative of what these firms are doing themselves. I want to emphasize that industrialists are people who have business enterprises with which they hope to earn money. They have to ensure that the service is rendered. What did they do? In the first place they sent the radiotricians they had on their staff and who had the ability to study further, abroad to be trained for television work in firms with whom they have their contacts. That process is already in progress.

In the second place they granted bursaries to as many engineering students as they require in their industry. In addition they helped matriculation apprentices to undergo advanced television training at the Colleges for Advanced Technical Education. In other words, they are the people who are sponsoring those students who have the ability to study in that direction and they are the people who are able to give them the in-service training which I mentioned earlier. Servicing engineers and highly trained technicians are being seconded on a temporary basis by the overseas firms with whom these South African firms have contacts. There are already a number of them here who are doing this work. In addition highly trained technicians were recruited for service in firms which are going to undertake the manufacture. Then the firm to which I referred here, established its own training centre. I almost want to say that I wish we also had such a training centre for the task which my Department had to perform. That centre is equipped to train technicians, not only for its own factory, but also for its agents through the entire country that have to do the servicing and maintenance work. What I find interesting is to see how such a firm is able to draw up and submit a scheduled training programme. For the first month, for example a certain task is set, this is taken a step further the next month, etc. The entire programme has been properly programmed, and the firm knows precisely what to do. I think that with that I have replied to the questions put to me by the two hon. members in regard to the training of technicians for this service.

May I ask the hon. the Minister whether he has any figures available which indicate how many of those 900 in the highly trained group are at present undergoing training?

I want to inform the hon. member that the little sums he wants to try and make in this connection mean nothing. I cannot tell him how many are undergoing training, because the firms who are providing these people with training, both in-service and at colleges, as far as their theoretical work is concerned, have not sent in their returns and I therefore do not have this at my disposal. But it is not a question of adding or subtracting, on the basis of which one can then say that we have a specific shortage. I want to warn the hon. member against that in advance.

The hon. member for Florida also discussed programme planning. I want to assure him that the SABC is doing a considerable amount of planning for programmes, as the annual report also inter alia, indicated. Various other hon. members, on both sides of the House, I think, also referred to that, and I think we can accept that the necessary planning exists and that a great deal of the work is already being done. However, I want to say that it would be wrong to assume that programmes can at this early stage be compiled and stored without reservation; for there are only certain programmes which can be compiled at this stage and which will still be usable in a few years’ time. The SABC is experienced enough to know that it must not compile programmes now which will be unusable when we have to commence this service in 1976.

I shall proceed next to deal with the other aspects in regard to the radio service touched upon by the hon. member for Orange Grove. He charged me with being the person who barred religion from the programmes of L.M. Radio.

Terrible allegation!

I wonder where the hon. member gets his information from. I have previously replied to that point. I told him that Radio L.M., before the SABC began to act as its commercial manager, sold time for religious broadcasts, and the standpoint of the SABC is that it does not commercialize religion, and for that reason we are allowing, just as we are doing on our programmes in South Africa, certain religious broadcasts to be offered free of charge on Radio L.M. I am asking the hon. member where he came by that story of his.

It was simply a wild tale.

He referred to a questionnaire on TV. He was probably not here when we referred to this matter previously in the discussion of a motion on the work of the Human Sciences Research Council. Sir, this is a scientific study which is being made by the HSRC and which is being endorsed by the SABC itself, and I can tell you that it is an investigation in regard to which there is great interest abroad. I cannot and I do not want to comment on the standard of the questions which are being put. This is the work of scientists and they frequently ask questions which appear to be strange to us as laymen. But what I find strangest of all is that the hon. member for Orange Grove, experienced man that he is, should accept the opinion of a newspaper, specifically Rapport, when a group of its readers states that the SABC service is prejudiced; but when he comes to a scientific investigation such as the one being made by the HSRC, he has all kinds of doubts in advance. Sir, I want to inform the hon. member that these lists are succeeded by others, one after another, and it is of no avail singling out one question now from one of the lists and trying to make it appear ridiculous. I think he should discuss that with the hon. member for Hillbrow; the hon. member for Hillbrow will be able to tell him more about such surveys; I I think he will be able to form a more intelligent opinion of it than the hon. member for Orange Grove.

Sir, since I mentioned newspaper surveys a moment ago, I also want to ask whether the hon. member is acquainted with the survey conducted by the Daily Despatch among English-speaking readers in the Eastern Province, who are certainly not supporters of my side of the House. They said that the SABC was the most objective source of information in South Africa, but that, of course, the hon. member for Orange Grove does not wish to know.

The hon. member then asked when we were going to submit legislation on the television programme advisory council. Sir, work on this legislation is constantly in progress. We did not want to introduce the legislation this year only to find next year, in the light of new developments and further requirements, that further amendments would have to be effected. We shall submit this legislation in good time before the introduction of the service, if not next year, then the year after that.

Mr. Chairman, I now want to proceed to deal with educational matters. Yesterday evening the hon. member for Berea put questions to me in regard to bursaries for medical and specialized training. I just want to explain to him that this scheme was approved by the Cabinet as long ago as 1970. Four hundred bursary loans were made available. For the first three years of study an amount of R600 per year is allocated, and for the remaining years of study, R650. It is interesting to know that these bursaries are not allocated by my Department to specific students. In other words, my Department is not making propaganda for those bursaries either. The money is divided up amongst the various universities. I assume that universities publicize these bursaries among their students or prospective students, and then allocate them according to a procedure which they then find appropriate. But now I want to furnish the hon. member with interesting figures, not because it applies to the English-language universities, but because it illustrates certain tendencies about which I shall have more to say later.

Since the introduction of this bursay scheme in 1970 the English-language universities have claimed only about R17 000 of their total allocation of R319 460 for this purpose. Why? One asks oneself, why? The reason for that is that many students do not want to commit themselves to working for the State if they study with a bursary. That is one of the problems with which the Public Service Commission and the education departments are saddled, and apparently the same applies here. Therefore the money is there, but the students do not always make use of it.

The hon. member also asked what had been done by the SABC in regard to the abuse of drugs. Sir, I do not have the time to go into details now, but I can inform the hon. member that the SABC has broadcast a number of talks over a number of its services—in the Bantu service, in talks on medical matters, etc. I need only mention to you one such programme, “The Broken Link”. I have here a tremendously long list of talks. “The Broken Link” was one. In “Top Level” a talk was held by Mr. Arthur Tong, director of the International Council on Addiction and Drug Dependency. Prof. H. W. Snyman spoke on drugs in the medical context. Dr. Bensusan, in the programme “Tonight”, discussed the abuse of drugs. Another programme was “Deadline, Thursday Night”, in which experts discussed this problem. I could also mention to you “Encounter”, “The Radio Doctor”, etc. I think the SABC, has performed Stirling service in this regard and if it is necessary, it will probably continue to do so. The hon. member also asked me what my Department had done in regard to the matter. I want to tell you that the matter has received attention from the Committee of Educational Heads, because they are the committee which, taking into consideration the youth preparedness programme, must see what can be done to counter this problem. I find it interesting that this work for which the hon. member for Berea pleaded, comprises part of our youth preparedness programme, which some of the hon. members opposite are running down and making suspect. My Department obviously has liaison through the Department of Social Welfare with the National Advisory Council for Rehabilitation Matters, and I undertook to do certain things at the schools. We are still awaiting this report of the Committee of Educational Heads, but I can give the hon. member the assurance that it is a matter we take very seriously. I have also brought it to the attention of the universities, and they are also working on it, each in its own way. I do not have any report on that.

Yesterday evening the hon. member for Koedoespoort referred to the project schools. I do not think we need be afraid to experiment in education, provided that the experiments are conducted on a sound pedagogic and scientific basis. This experiment with project schools was related, inter alia, to the failure rate at the universities which various hon. members discussed. That experiment, to which the Joint Matriculation Board as well as the former Minister of National Education agreed, has now been completed. I know for a fact that the Transvaal Education Department wants to continue certain of those experiments on a more limited scale. For that of course it will also have to obtain the approval of the Joint Matriculation Board. I do not think a decision in that regard has already been taken.

I come next to certain aspects raised by the hon. member for Durban Central. Yesterday evening he discussed the youth leadership courses, some of which he termed brainwashing courses. I know that he likes, when he addresses political meetings in the rural areas, to try to frighten people with that story of his. Last year I furnished the hon. member with a comprehensive reply in regard to that matter, and I do not think that, in the time I have left. I can go into that matter in full detail again. I explained to him how those courses are being organized. I pointed out to him that my Department is interested in the training of young leaders, that we are making money available for that purpose on the basis of the services which are being rendered, and that we do not accept responsibility for every word which is said there. I also pointed out to him that there was no evidence and no possibility of oneway indoctrination, but that there was a to-way flow of ideas. The best proof I have of that is what I mentioned to him last year, but which he apparently does not wish to accept, viz. that when it suits him and his hon. colleagues, they quote the comments made by certain individuals on the occasion of those courses or while those youth camps are in progress. They do so to strengthen their side of the political case.

The hon. member for Durban Central also raised further matters today. He also discussed a measure of frustration which supposedly exists among the students. I have already replied to that in part when I reacted to the speech made by the hon. member for Wynberg. The hon. member for Durban Central discussed the possibility of establishing branches of political parties on the campuses of our universities. That is not a matter which I decide on; it is something on which the universities themselves decide.

I made an appeal to them.

To the best of my knowledge there is a National Party branch on the campus of the University of Stellenbosch, and if his party has so little attraction to the students that they do not even want to establish a branch of his party, he must not blame me for that. [Interjections.]

The hon. member also raised quite a number of other matters. For example he mentioned a professional teachers’ council, and then referred to my incompetency as Minister and said that I had allegedly thrown in the towel. I asked the hon. member to state his standpoint and to tell me what he had in mind. Do you know what the trouble with that hon. member is? The hon. member was, as you know, a member of the teaching profession, and he still has certain connections in the teaching profession, but he is so out of touch with the teaching profession that he no longer knows precisely what is happening there. He is speaking now on the basis of information which is already obsolete.

How long is it since the Minister left the teaching profession?

The Education Council gave me advice on the professional teachers’ council, and they even submitted a draft Bill in this regard to me. The hon. member ought to know that it is my duty, when I receive such advice, to refer it to certain parties. I did this, and inter alia I referred it to the Administrators. The Administrators studied those proposals, and in their turn they informed me that it was such a drastic step that they could not and would not give me a hasty opinion in that regard. The result is that it took a long time before I received their comment. I have now received their comment, and I want to say that that comment is so drastic that if I were to give effect to it, that teachers’ council would mean very little. That is why I asked that hon. member, and he still has not replied to me, whether he would say that I as Minister should intervene to force the system which I advocate on the Natal Provincial Administration and their Executive Committee.

You could persuade them.

The hon. member says that I could persuade them. I can inform the hon. member that I have been working on this for a long time. I want to ask the hon. member once again whether it is his standpoint that I, if I cannot persuade them, should decide that I should force this on them? Is the hon. member prepared to say that?

You could apply it to the other provinces.

The hon. member is saying now that I could apply it to the other provinces. He felt himself at liberty to label me with all kinds of adjectives. All that I can say is that I think that I should also label him with the following, as a member of this House. He did not have the courage to reply to this question because he knows that this is the crux of the matter and that they will flay him alive in Natal if he answers “Yes” to that question. That is where we stand with the teachers’ council.

The hon. member quoted particulars here of a study made by Prof. MacMillan on the academic level of our teachers. I am very pleased that the hon. member is concerned about that. He has discussed that before, and I think that his concern in that regard is genuine. We ought to look into this matter, because it is very important. For that reason we are trying, inter alia, to effect a change in the training of high school teachers. I have here in my hand a report on the manpower shortage which was published in December, 1972 by the Human Sciences Research Council. The following is stated about this matter in this report (translation)—

I say that this finding is one which I rely on, and to which I attach great value. I want to tell the hon. member that this is an important matter, and that we are making progress in this sphere. The hon. member also saw fit to advocate certain salary issues and structural changes. The hon. member knows of course what the ideas in the Federal Council and among teachers in this regard are, and I do not take it amiss of him for doing so. The hon. member has his colleagues there, but I want to inform the hon. member that all representations which were made to me by the Federal Council of Teachers’ Associations, were dealt with by me, as I am expected to deal with them. I want to inform the hon. member that in the 31st report of the Interdepartmental Advisory Committee on Educational services, a sub-committee of the Committee of Educational Heads on which the Federal Council, inter alia, has representation—there are nine of them altogether—there were occasional references to what had happened to those representations. I want to quote to hon. members what appeared in the 31st report of this advisory committee. This report was completed in August 1971, and was considered in November 1971. In this report the following finding was stated (translation)—

Now the hon. member comes here and advocates greater leeway in the top structures of the salary scales. I know that this is also something which the teachers are advocating, and the hon. member also knows that some of the highest posts in the educational structure are Public Service posts.

That is my argument.

In other words, with the salary structure in education one cannot begin at the bottom and then build it up as high as one can; one must fit these things into the salary structure.

One cannot do so while the Public Service Commission has the say.

That is the existing position and as far as this is concerned I can inform the hon. member that, just like the problems which one has with the various Executive Committees and Administrators, he does not have a hope of succeeding in that attempt. He does not have a hope of succeeding because those scales are linked together, and because that is the standpoint of the Public Service Commission and of the Cabinet; therefore, no change is possible.

The hon. member referred to certain anomalies concerning the salary scales of primary and high school teachers. I want to inform the hon. member that the teachers’ associations are not in agreement that all teachers should be paid according to the same salary scale. But let us forget about that for a moment. I want to tell the hon. member that during my discussion with the Federal Council of Teachers’ Associations on 3rd February—which took place in Pretoria owing to my willingness to accommodate them; I flew to Pretoria especially in order to be at their disposal there—I informed them fully of the implications of everything they were asking for and endeavouring to achieve in regard to changes to their scale and structure. I do not have the time now to burden this hon. House with all these figures, but I do want to inform the hon. member that we have for a long time been working intensively on this matter, and that the teachers know that this matter is receiving our attention. It is a good thing that he discussed it, but his having done so will give no added impetus to this matter.

I think that I have with that disposed of the points mentioned by the hon. member for Durban Central. I must make haste now. The hon. member for Malmesbury pleaded for a new university. I just want to inform him that the Cabinet adopted a resolution to the effect that no new university can be established before the findings of the Van Wyk de Vries Commission are known and have been studied.

The hon. member for Algoa discussed the expansion of the Colleges for Advanced Technical Education. He referred to the students who attend universities but who should not really be there. This, too, is a matter which is being studied by the Van Wyk de Vries Commission, i.e. the mutual recognition of work done at the Colleges for Advanced Technical Education and the universities.

The hon. member for Albany touched upon a very important matter, viz. the question of the training of veterinarians. He made it clear that he was in favour of an additional faculty, but not of the extension of the existing faculty at Onderstepoort. Approximately two weeks ago I spoke to a deputation from the professional association, in which interview the matter was put to my hon. colleague the hon. the Minister of Agriculture and myself in detail. I explained to them that the Cabinet had adopted a resolution to the effect that the existing faculties of medicine, engineering, dentistry and veterinary science, which are expensive faculties, should preferably be expanded, rather than that new faculties should be established at this stage. However, this does not mean that a new faculty will never be established. What is involved here are large sums of money, and scarce and highly trained manpower. Since an investigation is being instituted at the moment —I am referring again here to the Van Wyk de Vries Commission which concerns all these matters, such as the expansion of university training facilities, as well as the incorporation of the agricultural faculties in the Department of National Education —there can be no possibility at this stage of a new investigation. This I also explained to the veterinarians who came to discuss this matter with me. I do not want to say that we shall not investigate this matter at a later stage. The findings of this report, together with what is happening at the moment, will have to indicate to us the course to be adopted in future.

The hon. member for Tygervallei furnished a very fine elucidation here of the needs for the training of severely mentally handicapped children. What he said was quite correct. I want to give him the assurance that I have already instructed my Department to undertake the research in regard to standards so that we may be prepared when legislation—next year, we hope, if we can find the financial provision for that—will be introduced. I want to associate myself with the appeal which he made to the public to be generous in their support for these institutions, the so-called day centres, because they are finding it very difficult to make ends meet without the support of the public.

I come next to the hon. member for Springs, who expressed the fine idea of a drama competition centred around the late Gen. Hertzog. I want to inform him that I shall have this possibility investigated by my Department, but I can give him no assurance in this connection. If one confers a prize, it also depends on whether one can get hold of the money. In any case, I shall have the possibility investigated. The other matter raised by the hon. member was the selection of artists whose work is purchased. Here the practice is that in respect of Afrikaans work recommendations are requested from the Akademie vir Wetenskap en Kuns, and as far as English works are concerned, from the English Academy. We then act according to their recommendations and do not take the decisions ourselves.

The hon. member for Simonstown referred to Westlake and he expressed great appreciation for what is being done at Westlake. I have been there myself, and I agree with him wholeheartedly. He also referred to the supposed divided control. Those persons are being trained in terms of the Apprenticeship Act under the Department of Labour, and my department is simply doing the work for them. Now I can understand that situations would arise here and there which would seem like divided control. However, there is in fact no divided control. Then, too, it is not the function of my department to advertise that institution. It is a matter for the Department of Labour. However, I am very pleased that the hon. member takes this seriously, and I think that hon. members, if they were to take cognizance of the work which is being done there, could do a great deal in their own areas to advise people who find themselves in the circumstances to which the hon. member referred. The training they receive there is excellent, and the earning ability of the persons who have qualified there is in most cases infinitely better than it was before. I want to give my firm support to the hon. member in that appeal.

Who pays the apprentices?

They are being paid by the Department of Labour. The hon. member then, in my opinion, expressed a very interesting and—I would almost say —moving idea, but nevertheless an idea which is full of pitfalls, viz. that “Die Stem van Suid-Afrika” has become so firmly rooted in Afrikaans that we should not have a translation of it. This is a matter over which I have no say. I just want to remind the hon. member of the fact that “Die Stem” was accepted at the time on a motion which was introduced by an English member of this hon. House. It was accepted in the time of the late Mr. Strydom. I think it is a matter for the Prime Minister to decide. I do nevertheless wish to suggest to the hon. member for consideration whether he should not at an opportune moment, as an English-speaking person, come forward with a motion to this effect in this House. I do not know what the standpoint of the Prime Minister will be. I think the consideration in translating “Die Stem” at the time, which has since then been accepted as an official translation, was to familiarize visitors from overseas and English-speaking persons who did not understand Afrikaans with the words. Therefore I cannot express an opinion in this regard, but I think the hon. member could consider what I have suggested to him.

The hon. member for Hercules discussed the need for parents to allow themselves to be guided by the scientifically trained persons, the councillors and the psychologists, with regard to our new system of differentiated education. I am in full agreement with the hon. member. It is extremely necessary. However, we must of course take into account the fact that certain parents may cherish other ideals for their children, and that there will then be a conflict of standpoints. But the information service, which is an integral part of our system of differentiated education, is in fact geared to the need to make it an excellent one.

I think that at this stage I have to reply only to the comments made by two hon. members. The hon. member for Sea Point raised the matter of caring for burgher graves in Ceylon. I know that he also raised this matter a few years ago, before I took over this portfolio. Of course there are a number of pitfalls in this matter as well, because it quite probably implies negotiations through diplomatic channels, and with a country with which we do not have any diplomatic relations. All I can say to the hon. member at this stage is that I will convey this to my colleagues in the Cabinet, and that we shall consider this matter. The idea itself is to my mind a fine one. Perhaps it is another obligation of honour which we have to perform in respect of the burghers who were buried there. I want to tell him that his proposal of course implies a certain principle, i.e. the centralization of graves, to which the hon. member for Benoni objected so vehemently a year or two ago. But I am just mentioning this in passing.

Then the hon. member for Stilfontein referred to our schools for special education and the special task resting on their staff. He referred to the gap between the allowances they are receiving for the additional services they render, and the boarding fees they have to pay in order to live in those institutions. I know that it is a problem. It is a matter which we are clarifying with the Treasury at the moment, and I hope that we will in due course be able to iron it all out. This actually cropped up as a result of the fact that the boarding fees payable by those persons, were increased before the allowances which are paid to them were increased.

I think that I have with this replied to all the matters which were raised. I should like to express my sincere appreciation to the hon. members who participated in this debate. Many questions were asked. Obviously I could still have replied to the questions which the hon. member for Orange Grove merely mentioned, but failed to motivate, and in respect of which I do not know in all respects what his problem is, but I do not want to take up any more of the time of this Committee. I shall let it suffice, therefore, to conclude with a word of thanks to all who participated in this debate.

Votes agreed to.

Revenue Vote No. 33, Loan Vote B and S.W.A. Vote No. 19.—“Public Works”:

Mr. Chairman, may I ask for the privilege of the half-hour? At the start I want to congratulate the hon. the Minister with his appointment as Minister responsible for Public Works in the Republic. This is a department which is responsible to various other departments, and its activities cover a wide field.

†Sir, this department, which has wide responsibilities, is concerned not only with the construction of buildings required by the State in the Republic, the maintenance of those buildings and the hiring and letting of buildings, but it is also responsible for buildings for our embassies and consulates in other parts of the world. One notices the variety and the types of buildings, and the extent of the work which is the responsibility of this department. I am glad to find, Sir, when I read the report of the department for the year ended 31st March, 1972, that although Mr. Coetzee, who was one of the two gentlemen who toured overseas to study what was needed at the various embassies and consulates in other parts of the world, is no longer with us, Mr. Howard at least is here with the information which was obtained on that particular tour.

Sir, in this discussion on the hon. the Minister’s Vote, I want to deal with certain policy matters and certain administrative matters. I do so because this is the first occasion on which one has had an opportunity to discuss this Vote with this hon. Minister who is now responsible for this portfolio. Sir, the report which we have before us indicates the continuing difficulty in regard to personnel. There seems to be no overall improvement or little improvement in so far as appointments are concerned against the authorized establishment for the Public Works Department. When one sees what vacancies there are, particularly in the professional classes, then one realizes the heavy burden which is borne by the Secretary for Public Works and the senior staff in the professional classes who have to carry out the department’s work. I think the thanks of this Committee are due to the Secretary and to his professional staff and to the staff of this department generally for the manner in which they discharge their duties in these difficult circumstances of staff shortages.

Sir, I want to ask the hon. the Minister whether the time has not arrived to look at the authorized establishment once again. There seems to be no point in having authorized posts which year after year remain unfilled. Has the time not come for this department to face realities and to realize that they are only able to get so many quantity surveyors, so many architects, so many civil engineers and so many mechanical engineers and to plan the work of the department on the basis of a reduced, realistic establishment and not the present optimistic authorized establishment? Secondly, Sir, I am rather distressed to find, with all the emphasis on the necessity of quality and productivity in all departments of State, that there seems to be some query in regard to the question of maintaining a personnel manager on the staff of the Public Works Department. The report of the Secretary deals in paragraphs 17 and 18 with the duties and functions of the personnel manager. I quote—

Having seen that report I am astounded to find in the Budget presented by the hon. the Minister in the Vote we are discussing today, that the post of personnel manager has been dispensed with. What is more, the post of administrative control officer has been abolished as also the post of control inspector of works. The appointment which has been made which can to any extent be related to those particular duties appears to be that of a training officer, who is on a very much lower grade, at least as regards remuneration, than the officers whose posts have been abolished. I would be grateful if the hon. the Minister would explain to me and to the Committee why these posts and especially that of personnel manager, have been abolished, having regard to the report of the Secretary of his value when he was operating in that office.

The other matter in respect of which I would like the hon. the Minister to give some information to the Committee relates to the forward planning—I do not want to call it a backlog—and the estimates we have from the various departments. One finds for instance that in one year, according to this report, a considerable number of estimates were dealt with by the quantity surveyors of the quantity surveying division; there were estimates of sketch plans, preliminary estimates, revised estimates, check estimates and revised check estimates, etc.

When one looks at the figures, particularly those given in the Loan Vote, one notes that the original estimate for the work for which provision is now made in this Budget, amounted to R22 million. The present estimate for that same work, because of variations admittedly, but also because of the increase in construction costs, is R365 million. In other words, there is an increase of approximately 63% which is built into the cost of those works which have been on the Estimates for some years. At this rate it would appear—I am merely estimating now and I would like the hon. the Minister to give us a clearer indication—that on an average in the case of the works which are brought before this House in the Estimates each year, there is a time lag of something like five or six years before those works are cleared and replaced by another series of works; in other words, they are being replaced all along, but the average time lag is something like five to six years. That does lead to an escalation in the costs as is indicated in the Loan Vote before us today.

Last year, in regard to State buildings, I was perhaps a little critical of the outside appearance of State buildings to the passer-by and of their unattractiveness as far as the public is concerned. That opinion was formed by me after seeing certain State buildings, but I feel that I want to congratulate the department on its appointment two years ago, or even further back, of an ad hoc art committee to deal with the decocoration of the Jan Smuts Airport in Johannesburg. The result has been that there were introduced into that airport samples of sculpture and of murals and generally an art context which I believe has enhanced that building to a standard where it can stand comparison with similar buildings in other parts of the world. Sir, there will always be differences of opinion as to the suitability of what is erected and what sort of murals are constructed, but I should think that both the idea of the department in doing this at Jan Smuts Airport and the result which was achieved at that place should be welcomed. For instance, I wonder how many hon. members of this Committee have taken the opportunity of viewing the entrance foyers of the building of the Department of the Interior. I believe there are examples of South African art in those foyers which do great credit to our art people, if I might term them that in South Africa. I refer to both the metal murals in the one foyer and the murals of a different type, which are not metal murals, in the other entrance to that building. I believe here again the building is enhanced and given character, and gets away from a good deal of drabness which would otherwise have appeared, and which we have in certain other buildings. Talking about this building, I may mention that I was interested to read in the Press of surreptitious and other visits to a piece of sculpture which is being prepared for the building of the Department of the Interior. I look forward to the hon. the Minister advising me when that will be in place and duly unveiled for the edification of the public of South Africa.

I want to appeal to the hon. the Minister to think seriously about the question of the utilization of the art council of English-speaking persons who are interested in the arts and the similar or equivalent art council in the Afrikaans-speaking sphere. Those councils should be joined together and they should try to form some permanent committee to deal with and to give advice in regard to the art to be applied to or incorporated in buildings which are constructed by the Government.

I believe that with a little more thought and application a modern method of smaller coverage on a site, providing accommodation in height and not in coverage, we could arrange Government buildings in such a way that they would present themselves with some open spaces which would give an opportunity for the display of works of art like sculptures for instance. When one looks at the Hendrik Verwoerd Building with its attractive patios, one realizes that because of the wind here in Cape Town, it is quite impossible to think of growing anything on those open patios. Nothing can be grown there, but I think those patios could be made most attractive aspects of that building if some sculptures or other works of art could be displayed on those patios. I comment to the hon. the Minister to think of something which would help considerably.

While talking about the interior decoration of these buildings, I want to refer to a certain matter. Last year I visited Ravenna in Italy to see what I believe are examples of the most perfect mosaics that are to be found anywhere in the world. Some of them date back to BC. These mosaics have withstood the test of time. In the course of discussions with people there who were looking at them, I asked whether it was possible for somebody from Italy to do this work in South Africa. An Italian in charge of one of the big mosaic contracting firms in Ravenna then said to me that in Cape Town at the Cape Town Technical College we have a man as qualified as anybody they could send us in Italy. I believe we have this art here. In the Technical College at Cape Town there is a school of art which is developing the use of mosaics. I believe that a competition introduced to the art schools to present mosaics for the walls of these buildings will not only encourage art in this country, but will certainly give buildings an appearance of something more permanent and those buildings will then probably not be looked at in the years to come as buildings which should be demolished in order to make place for buildings of a more modern structure. I do hope that attention will be given to this matter.

There are two other matters which I should like to mention to the hon. the Minister which I believe are important to his department. The first one is this unsightly position at the top of Stalplein, the parking area which is known colloquially as the “duck pond”. I know that plans for this parking area in front of the Presidency have been before the department and I know that plans have been on the boards for a long time to have that area cleared, to construct an underground parking garage there, and to turn the surface into a display garden in that particular area. I ask for this not only because it will add to the attractiveness of this area of the city; but it is something which is being done in every big city in Europe. One sees in city after city that their open spaces are not used as we use them in South Africa, where they are cluttered up with motor-cars from 8 o’clock in the morning to 8 o’clock at night. They are used as open spaces for the convenience, the comfort and the use of the population of those particular cities. There is no reason whatsoever why the cities in this country cannot be provided with underground parking in these squares and why the surfaces should not be utilized for beautifying these open spaces. I know the hon. the Minister will ask me what that has to do with him and his department. I mention it to him, however, for the following reason: If he would deal with Government-owned open spaces, such as the one near Plein Street, in this way, I can assure him that there are private contractors by the dozen who would be prepared to undertake the construction of these underground garages in our cities. At the moment there is a hesitancy to allow this work to be done, firstly by the local authorities and secondly by the National Monuments Commission. If the Department of Public Works can set the example as to how this can be done, and to show the value of this type of development, I am sure it will be something that will increasingly take place in South Africa. I want to make an appeal to the hon. the Minister to give attention to this matter.

While talking about that aspect, I would like to know whether the hon. the Minister would be good enough to indicate in his reply what progress has been made or what planning there is in regard to the development of the Plein Street complex adjacent to Marks Building which is across the road from here. I would like the hon. the Minister to indicate what the planning is for the development scheme for the whole parliamentary complex and its surroundings. This scheme was, I think, welcomed by all. One appreciates the problem of a shortage of funds, which has been the excuse that has been advanced, but perhaps with the gold price at 112 dollars on the open market, the Government may be able to see its way clear to bringing some of this work forward in the interests of South Africa.

Finally I want to raise with the hon. the Minister an item which appears under this Vote, namely the item which deals with financial assistance to municipalities in regard to rates. The hon. the Minister will remember that this item was first introduced into the Budget two years ago as an allowance or a payment to municipalities where a considerable number of Government or State-owned buildings were situated within those areas. The Government pays these amounts to assist the municipalities to counteract the loss of rate revenue. The figure which was fixed at R2,4 million for 1972-’73 has been increased to R2,9 million for this year. This is an appreciable increase over one year. At the same time a considerable number of buildings have been taken into use in the various cities and I do not know whether the municipalities are adequately compensated for this increase. There is a fear on the part of municipalities that this financial assistance is likely to be pegged at some figure for some years. I hope the hon. the Minister will not commit himself to pegging this financial assistance. In the case of cities like Pretoria, Cape Town, Durban and Bloemfontein one has to look at the situation from time to time in order to ensure that the financial assistance granted by the Government for rate losses by these municipalities is realistic in relation to the areas where a loss of rates has been sustained. On that point there is in the Estimates a figure which shows a considerable reduction in the subsistence to the Simonstown municipality. I think the figure has been reduced from approximately R500 000 or R600 000 to R100 000 for the current year. I am not certain about the reason for that and unfortunately I cannot put my finger on that particular item in the Estimates, but perhaps I can pass it to the hon. Minister later. Perhaps that matter can also be looked at.

I want to conclude by repeating my appeal to the hon. the Minister to encourage what has been begun, i.e to adorn our buildings in a manner that is fitting and lasting. I do not mean the type of “art” where a couple of ball-bearings are stuck together with a couple of old wheels and a piece of iron to depict something or other. I do not mean that type of art; but a type that will be lasting and that will give opportunity to our artists and sculptors in South Africa in the future.

Mr. Chairman, I shall not be here tomorrow. For that reason I have been given the opportunity to be the first speaker on our side; also because time is running out now and we shall be conducting another debate shortly.

Today I want to draw the attention of this hon. Committee to a matter which is very dear to my heart. I want to take you, Sir, on a flight of the imagination to Switzerland, the lake hemmed in by mountains, Geneva and the town Montreux. On the shores of this lake is a historical villa, No. 17, Dubochet, the house in which the former president of the Transvaal Republic died. The following quotation under the heading “The exile of the Villa Dubochet” is an extract from the book published in commemoration of the centenary of Montreux (translation)—

Paul Kruger occupied the house at No. 17 Villa Dubochet. He enjoyed strolling along the shady avenues of this enchanting setting admiring the beautiful scenery around him. But his thoughts continually wandered to other places, to other shores, where the huge waves of the ocean were breaking. He was thinking of his people and of his city, Pretoria. His thoughts were far away and he died on the 14th July, 1904, when the French were celebrating their national day on the opposite shore, the commemoration of the storming of the Bastille and the triumph of freedom. Today a plague against the wall of No. 17 Villa Dubochet reminds us for a moment of the exile and the death of President Kruger.

This is a beautiful old villa situated in very pleasant and picturesque surroundings. This House was purchased in 1950, very well restored and is being maintained very well. When we were there, the floors shone like a mirror; not a speck of dust could be seen on any of the furniture. The resident caretaker, Mrs. Chesaux, has been in charge there for the past 18 years. Not only does she keep the place clean, but she also acts as guide for those who are not familiar with the historic facts. However, I am not aware of any form of direct publicity being given to the existence of this house. It has, however, come to my attention that a tourist guide is published in Montreux which refers to Kruger House as a museum and a place of interest. It may interest hon. members to know that the “Transvaalse Vrouefederasie” provides the money to put fresh flowers in the President’s room every week. Another interesting fact is that our national flag is hoisted daily in that foreign part of the world. I should therefore like to address a plea to the hon. the Minister to see whether this House cannot be furnished with more pieces of Kruger furniture in order to capture more of the atmosphere of that period of our history. My request is that in that foreign part of the world we should create a small corner of South Africa for visitors from South Africa and elsewhere. A friend recently wrote me a letter in this regard and he expressed himself in this vein: “There is no atmosphere of historical importance in the House. If one removes the few photographs it might just as well be the holiday cottage of Lord Kitchener or anyone else for that matter. Because the lady is not proficient in English, I feel that she should rather be furnished with the required information to be able at least to present a proper account in English and in French of the historical cultural background of the house.”

In the third place I want to advocate that we should prepare a short, interesting brochure to be made available in various languages and to be distributed also to travel agents in our country so that the Kruger House may be more widely publicized in this way. I do not believe that it would be too far-fetched even to investigate the possibility of making tape recordings to provide people who may visit the House with information. I am convinced that the results would justify the capital outlay. From inquiries I have made, I have deduced that a very small percentage of the thousands of South Africans who go overseas every year visit Kruger House. The reason is obvious. It appears that in the past year only 1 000 people signed the visitors’ book and among them, strangely enough, was a group of students from Canada and the United Kingdom. In the next instance, therefore, I also want to plead for Kruger House to be publicized more effectively here as well as overseas. I want to suggest that the department could do a great deal in co-operation with the Department of Information and the Department of Tourism to popularize and publicize Kruger House. I believe that the Press, too, could do a great deal in this regard to make Kruger House more well known.

Furthermore, I want to ask the hon. the Minister whether he, in co-operation with the Department of Information as well as the Department of Tourism, could not have the possibility investigated of making a short, suitable film in order to inform our own people here in South Africa, too, about kruger House. Of course, this could also be done overseas. A good map in those brochures would also contribute towards enabling a person to find the house easily. I myself had the experience that I had to search for hours to find the place. The result is that eventually one becomes discouraged, gets caught in the traffic and perhaps never gets there. I hope that through these few words, in the few minutes at my disposal, I have been able to succeed in bringing this very important matter to the attention of the hon. the Minister to see whether in this way we could not bring this small piece of South Africa more clearly to the attention of the public.

In the second place I want to avail myself of this opportunity to convey my thanks, on behalf of all of us, to the department, the Secretary, the Minister and all who were and are involved in the work done in regard to our public buildings. I know that I am speaking on behalf of all of us when I say that we have an excellent piece of work in the Jan Smuts Airport which we have been given by the department. I do not want to elaborate on that building as such, because there is no time for that, but it is really a gem for South Africa. Besides that I am particularly impressed by the works of art to be seen there. According to the annual report, the value of the works of art to be seen there comes to a substantial amount. There are 45 works of art with a total cost of approximately R305 000. All the people I have been in touch with in this regard, have spoken with nothing but great appreciation of this building and of the works of art it contains. It is really a credit to our country.

Mr. Chairman, I hope the hon. member for Kempton Park will excuse me if I do not follow his line of argument. I want to raise with the hon. the Minister matters concerning two great national heritages, both of which are situated in my constituency and for the upkeep and maintenance of which the Department of Public Works is responsible.

I refer, first of all, to Groot Constantia, and secondly, to Hoop op Constantia, both of which are historical monuments. I would firstly like to pay tribute to the Department of Public Works for the way in which they maintain the buildings at Groot Constantia. Those buildings are maintained in first-class condition, and I have heard many favourable comments as regards the condition of those buildings from members of the public who visited them. I would also like to pay tribute to the Department of Agricultural Technical Services for the job which they do in regard to the running of the fruit farm at Groot Constantia. It is efficiently and neatly run. The winery is an absolute model and of great interest to visitors. I think that the products which they produce are also well known, not only in our country, but far afield as well. I think the buildings at Groot Constantia are a matter of great justifiable pride to the department and to all South Africans. I am afraid that I am not in a position to comment on the condition of the buildings at Hoop op Constantia, adjacent to Groot Constantia. That building has been locked up. It looks from the outside as if it is well maintained, but the public at present have no access to it, even though it is a historical monument.

However, having paid tribute in regard to the buildings, I think that the strength of the department lies in its maintenance of bricks and mortar; because there is a great deal that disturbs me. I think a great deal is left to be desired as far as the maintenance and upkeep of the grounds and gardens at Groot Constantia are concerned. I would like to say that I attach no blame to any member of the staff of the Department of Public Works for this. There is only one superintendent for gardens for all State properties throughout the whole country and he has only one member of staff. So for him to supervise all the gardens throughout the country I regard as virtually an impossible task.

I would like to draw the Minister’s attention to areas at Groot Constantia in respect of which I would suggest that there is room for improvement. The first matter I would like to mention is the state of the oak trees there. There is a great number of oak trees, because Simon van der Stel was a great lover of oak trees. I think it is obvious that we want to retain as many of these big trees for as long as possible, but if we are going to do so I consider that they will need very much better attention than they are receiving at present. There is a great number of dead branches, and even dead trees. These are not only unsightly, but I think they spread disease amongst each other. They constitute a danger because in any high wind the branches are likely to come down and cause damage to persons and property. The state of the oaks in the avenue between Groot Constantia Manor House and the old swimming pool, a famous avenue of several hundred metres’ length, is really quite appalling, and I think that Simon van der Stel, if he saw them now, would turn in his grave. There also seems to be no systematic plan in regard to the replacement of oaks as they die. Some have been replaced with the ordinary English oak, which is the same as those Simon van der Stel planted; some have been replaced with American pin oaks, and I think there are also some Turkish oaks. I would strongly recommend to the hon. the Minister that he should consider the employment of a tree surgeon to look into the repair of the oaks as they stand at the moment and that he should also consult experts in the Department of Forestry of the University of Stellenbosch to formulate a general plan whereby the oaks at Groot Constantia could be better maintained and cared for, and whereby they could be preserved and properly and systematically replaced.

The second matter that I wish to raise with the hon. the Minister in regard to Groot Constantia is in regard to certain areas of the gardens, where I think the maintenance completely lacks imagination. I refer to the area around the sundial and the area around the swimming bath. Both areas could, if they were imaginatively developed, be the most charming areas and would be a great improvement and a great attraction in Groot Constantia. They contain some valuable trees and other flora, but they are suffering from lack of maintenance. For instance, in an area around the sun-dial I do not think the hedge has ever been cut; it is about six or seven metres high at the moment. Around the swimming pool there are fallen, dead tree-trunks, and trees foreign to the environment are being allowed to grow up amongst the oaks. Here again I would urge the hon. the Minister to seek expert advice in regard to the development of these areas.

Finally, I would like to say something about the appalling state of the gardens at Hoop op Constantia. This garden has been completely neglected. It was once a delightful area. It was once an area full of unexpected treats, such as palm trees, camellia trees, pomegranate trees, and there was a grotto there, and now it is completely uncared for. It is like an abandoned jungle; it is like a complete wilderness. I have little doubt that in this state many of the valuable flora are disappearing. I think they are being stolen, because it would be very easy to steal them. To me, as someone who has his roots in the Cape and values our heritage, I find it completely shocking that the garden of a national monument should be allowed to go to rack and ruin like this. I would like to invite the hon. the Minister to come out to Hoop op Constantia and see for himself.

Mr. Speaker, I move—

This proclamation is one which provides that any member of the Police Force of or above the rank of warrant officer, if he has reason to suspect that any person has committed theft or a criminal offence involving violence, or has or had the intention to commit such an offence, or has taken part or has or had the intention to take part in the commission of such an offence, or if he has reason to believe that any such person is withholding any information in connection with an offence referred to in the subregulation (a), may arrest such person, or cause him to be arrested, with or without warrant, and detain or cause such person to be detained for interrogation for a period not exceeding 90 days. It provides that the Commissioner of Police may at any time order the release of any person so arrested and detained and provides further that no court of law shall pronounce upon the validity of any action taken in terms of the proclamation or order the release of any person arrested and detained in terms of the proclamation; and provides that the commissioner may delegate his powers to any person of or above the rank of major.

The power is in fact a hangover from the days of the British Colonial Government, when the Governor, in his capacity as supreme chief of the Native tribes, could use these extraordinary powers. He was succeeded as supreme chief by the Governor-General of the Union and then by the State President when we became a Republic. It is a power which one might expect to find in a tribal society of those times, but not a power which belongs in our modern Western democratic world, unless we have reached the state in certain areas where one is unable to maintain law and order by any other means. But we can only countenance a proclamation such as this if, in the first place, there is a state of emergency in the area to which it applies which warrants it, and in the second place, only for so long as the state of emergency exists.

I would not be surprised if I were to be told that the area of Msinga might be such an area where it might be necessary for such powers to be invoked, seeing that persons who live around Msinga, lawyers who practise in the courts in Natal, and especially the police, know of the faction fighting and the severe unrest which attends the Msinga Reserve, not only faction fights involving the traditional Zulu weapons, but also faction fights and unrest in which fire-arms are involved, as often as not, and have been for as long as I have known of the troubles at Msinga.

Now, Sir, it appears that Chief Gatsha Buthelezi of the KwaZulu Government asked for these powers to be given to the South African Police. He indicates in statements to the Press that he went to Msinga last year and issued a warning to the inhabitants and threatened drastic action if the murderous faction fighting continued. Sir, that was last year, and I am glad that both the hon. the Minister of Bantu Administration and Development and the hon. the Deputy Minister of Police are here, because after this proclamation was issued the district commandant in Greytown was interviewed by the Natal Mercury on 26th April, and the following report appeared—

As a result of the appearance of that report in the newspaper, Chief Buthelezi criticized Col. Durant. What he said appears in the Natal Mercury of the 28th April—some two days later. What he said was that the statement made by Col. Durant bordered on irresponsibility and was evidence of underestimating the importance of the record of unsolved crimes in the district of Msinga. The record of crimes which Chief Buthelezi set out is very considerable. He pointed out—

The situation which existed at the time that Chief Buthelezi was there, namely last year—these figures are up to July of last year—might well have warranted taking extraordinary powers to restore law and order. However, apart from the indication that Col. Durant, the man in charge of maintaining law and order, gave, I asked questions of the Minister of Police in this House, on 1st May in the first place and then on 18th May, as to how many people had been arrested in terms of these regulations, who they were and where they were held, and so on. The answer to the questions on both occasions was that no one had been arrested in terms of these regulations, in terms of these extraordinary powers. We have the situation therefore that as at Friday last week, one month after the proclamation, the powers had not been used at all. One comes to the conclusion that in the Msinga district there is not a state of emergency existing at the moment and was not at the time the proclamation was issued. We have the strange situation that it would appear that the proclamation was issued by the State President and countersigned by the hon. the Minister of Bantu Administration and Development. Apparently at the request of Chief Buthelezi the Department of Bantu Administration and Development decided to give the Police certain extraordinary draconian powers which the police did not want. That is the situation which we appear to have.

I think there are certain questions which arise from these facts and which require to be answered by the Government, and that is why I am glad that both the hon. the Minister of Bantu Administration and Development and the hon. the Deputy Minister of Police are here this evening. The first question is: When, in fact, did Chief Buthelezi, or the KwaZulu Government, ask for these emergency powers to be given to the police to be used in respect of the district of Msinga? From the evidence that we have so far, it would appear that the situation which caused Chief Buthelezi to ask for these powers was a situation which he witnessed last year. When did he ask for those powers? This is a very important question since the proclamation giving these powers to deal with an emergency situation was only issued on 19th April, 1973. A third of this year had already gone by but the situation apparently arose last year. Was there, in fact, a delay in proclaiming these powers? We can only know that if we know when, in fact, those powers were asked for. I presume that only the hon. the Minister of Bantu Administration and Development can give us an answer to it.

The second question is perhaps as important a question as the first one, namely whether or not the Ministry of Police to whom the powers are granted by the proclamation were consulted by the Department of Bantu Administration and Development before the proclamation was issued. It would appear that they did not need the power when it was issued and that they have not used it since. If, in fact, they were consulted, the hon. the Deputy Minister of Police should tell us when they were consulted and what the response of his department was.

The third question is why, if in fact there appears to be no emergency, if in fact it appears that things have not been so quiet for a long time as they have been in the recent past, and the police did not need these powers, is the proclamation still there and why has it not been withdrawn? Is it the intention to leave this proclamation there, whether or not there is a state of emergency in the Msinga Reserve, in case such a situation may arise? What in fact is the position in this regard? I hope that we will get answers to these three questions. I am sure that there is no one in this House who would cavil at the suggestion that you should only have and would only have these powers if you have a state of emergency, or circumstances where you are obliged to suspend the law in order to maintain law and order. If that is the situation and if there is no other way of doing it, obviously those responsible are obliged to take, such measures. However, I repeat, that such measures should only be taken for so long as it is necessary to contain the situation. That then is my third question.

If we do not get satisfactory answers on any of these questions, one can wonder what is going on. Who consults whom in dealing with matters as important as this? Where is the liaison, and between which departments do we have this liaison? Unless we get some answers this Government will deserve the judgment of the Welshman, Dai. Hon. members have probably read the story. There was a Welshman who was giving evidence before a commission of inquiry into a train accident. He was asked by a commissioner where he was at the time. His reply was: “I was sitting on the hill with my friend Dai.” The commissioner asked him what happened then. The Welshman then said: “My friend Dai said: Look, there is a train coming from a northerly direction. I looked and there it was.” Then the commissioner asked: “What happened then?” He replied: “Well then, Dai said: There is a train coming from the southernly direction. I looked and there was. Then Dai said: And there is a single track.” The commissioner asked him: “What happened then?” He said: “There was a collision.” Then came the question: “What happened then?” He replied: “Dai said to me: What a way to run a bloody railway! ” [Interjections.]

Mr. Speaker, I am afraid that I cannot laugh too heartily at the joke of the hon. member for Durban North. I must tell him that the emergency debate he requested and the action he took this afternoon actually call to mind the truth of the English proverb. “Fools rush in where angels fear to tread.” It appears that the hon. member requested an important debate such as this one pursuant to a number of Press reports which he had obtained and pursuant to a Press interview which had been conducted with one of the police officers there. Secondly, he requested it pursuant to a question which he himself had put to me, i.e. whether any person had been detained in terms of Regulation No. 103 since a certain date this year, I think it was since 1st May. The reply was that nobody had been detained. Now the hon. member tells us here that there is supposedly no emergency and that according to the Press reports the officers said there was nothing wrong at Msinga, on the strength of which he has now put certain question to the Government.

When an hon. member requests as important a debate as this one, one would have expected him at least to have taken the trouble to go up to Msinga first and to see what was going on there in order to acquaint himself with the position so that he himself might know, without looking at Press reports, whether or not he should request such a debate. If the hon. member supposedly did not have the time to do so, one could at any rate have expected the hon. member, being a member of a party which is ostensibly conducting such a terribly great deal of dialogue with the Black leaders, at least to have taken the trouble to have discussions with Chief Buthelezi or with his Executive Council in order to find out what the position was at Msinga. I find it strange that the hon. member simply rushes along, merely on the strength of those Press reports. Now the hon. member makes the dogmatic statement that this regulation would only be justified if an emergency did exist. He also says that its period of validity should be the same as the duration of the state of emergency.

I want to tell the hon. member—he certainly knows South Africa just as well as I do—that a state of emergency is not a situation which festers or which remains at a temperature of 100° Celsius all the time; a situation of that nature does not remain at boiling point all the time. A boil in itself may also be like an emergency in the community. Like a volcano it is quiet at times, but some times it erupts. This depends on what is happening there. One must have regard to what is happening there. I want to tell him that the people who are in the best position to know what is going on in KwaZulu are the KwaZulu Government themselves, the people to whom the responsibility has been assigned to shoulder the day to day administration of KwaZulu. I make bold to say that Chief Buthelezi knows more about what is going on in Msinga than does the hon. member for Durban North.

What about the South African Police?

I shall come to that little story of yours which you so conveniently seized from the Press. You who are in the United Party ought to know by this time that one should, after all, consider any Press report from all angles before accepting what is said in it.

Let us just consider what happened. The Executive Council of KwaZulu adopted the following resolution on 25th October, 1972—

What is the date?

25th October, 1972. Let us just consider what the facts are in regard to conditions in this district. Why did the KwaZulu Executive Council go so far as to adopt such a motion unanimously? The facts of the situation are that during 1972 faction fighting broke out between the Tswana and the Sotho and between the Mbasu and Mtembu and among the Bongo themselves. The worst feuds broke out between the Mbasu and the Mtembu in the district of Msinga. I should like to furnish the House with the statistics relating to the faction fights which took place here and the consequences of those fights. I shall begin by furnishing the data for 1972 only. There were nine faction fights as such; 91 persons were prosecuted; there were 45 cases of murder and 18 prosecutions. Hon. members will notice that it is becoming increasingly difficult for the Police to investigate these cases of murder. There were 125 cases of serious assault, whereas 101 persons were prosecuted. What is important is the number of huts that were burnt down. There were 949 cases of huts that were burnt down. The number of persons whom the police were able to prosecute was 21. 332 head of cattle were stolen, whereas we were able to prosecute 26 people; 1 142 goats and sheep were stolen, whereas we were able to prosecute 21 persons. The reason for the lack of prosecutions is not a lack of diligence on the part of the South African Police. Nobody in this House knows how hard the police are working to combat crime. But here we have a situation of feuds, of conflict. When one questions a person, he has no information to offer; he shuts up like a clam and has nothing to say. The simple reason for this is that he is afraid that if he should make a statement and furnish any information, they would attack his brother or his father or someone else. We had a case in Msinga of a police constable who was shot dead in front of his wife. His wife saw it happening, and when we asked her who had done it she said she would rather not tell us, for her father or brother would be in danger if she did so. This situation has existed for quite a while. Faction fights between these two tribes are feud of 80 years’ standing, and this concerns a small piece of land, three miles by one mile, in Msinga. Now it is in the possession of the one tribe and then again it is in the possession of the other tribe. In an attempt to cope with this situation a proclamation of the State President was issued as long ago as 8th September, 1967, namely Proclamation No. 195, in terms of which a fine of R40 or four head of large stock was imposed on every adult male member of the Mbasu and Mtembu tribes. All of them were fined. The executive councillor of justice for KwaZulu, acting in terms of powers conferred upon him, made the provisions of the Dangerous Weapons Act of 1968 of the Republic applicable to Msinga. That was on 11th December, 1971. On 25th October the KwaZulu Executive Council adopted the resolution which I read out a moment ago.

Now I want to deal with that newspaper report of the hon. member. Now, what was the case of Col. Durant? He himself said that a girl from the Natal Mercury had telephoned and asked him what the situation was like at Msinga. He is a policeman and is in charge of the situation. He said that what he had said had been misreported, something which I accept, for I must very honestly say that I think we all suffer from being misreported from time to time. I was misreported in the Rand Daily Mail this morning, and they have already apologized to me. They put words into my mouth which had been said by Sir De Villiers Graaff. [Interjections.] But let us take Col. Durant’s words as they were reported by the Natal Mercury. What did he really say? He said—

When did he say this? On 26th April, 1973, after all those measures had been taken and even after this proclamation dated 19th April, 1973. And now the hon. member asked me whether any persons had been detained in terms of this harsh regulation. My reply was “no”. Sir, it is obvious that the situation is under control at the moment; but I do not know when there will be another flare-up.

Now I want to tell the hon. member that we have given the people of KwaZulu a government. We have given Chief Buthelezi and his Executive Council the right to keep a close watch on and go through that area from day to day. In terms of our laws certain instructions, powers and rights have been assigned to him. Now I very honestly want to tell hon. members this: There are times when I do not agree with Chief Buthelezi on statements made by him. At times he does not agree with our Government. As far as I am concerned, he is welcome to disagree. These are differences of opinion which people have with another. I have every confidence that the persons placed there by the KwaZulu Government, by the Zulu themselves, are in the best position to advise us on what is happening in their territory.

It concerns their own people.

After all, they know the mentality of their own people. They know the tribal customs. They know much more about feuds than the hon. member for Durban North or the young female reporter of the Natal Mercury would know. They understand the situation, and they approached our Government in all earnest, asking for that 90-day provision to be applied. And what is wrong with that? I ask the hon. member: If we were not to abrogate that proclamation and there should be another outbreak of murderous events, who would then be to blame? I have said this before, and the hon. member knows this: An emergency in South Africa is not a situation which flares up to night and is absolutely calm tomorrow. It is a growing boil which we must combat. We cannot combat it without the measures which the KwaZulu Government has asked us to take. It is our responsibility to help these people with the policing of their territory. Our people there are aware of the problems that are being experienced. They know how one struggles to get hold of witnesses. Now, what do we have here?—quite simply a measure in terms of which we may remove a person from his tribe, keep him away from others, interrogate him, speak to him, tame him and say to him, “Look, this is for your own good. Tell us who did it so that we may know.”

I do not know whether the hon. member mentioned it, but those persons must be visited by a magistrate every two weeks. But the moment such a person is arrested —the words in the proclamation are “as soon as possible”—the Commissioner of Police must be advised of the matter. The local police must furnish the Commissioner of Police at least once a month with reasons why persons are being detained. Sir, I do not think the hon. member has done his party any good through this debate. I think he expressed distrust in the KwaZulu Government and leaders. As I said a moment ago, in spite of the fact that I often differ with what Chief Buthelezi has to say, I have every confidence in the leaders of KwaZulu that in this respect they are better able to handle their own affairs than is the hon. member for Durban North.

Are you going to reply to my questions or not?

What further reply does the hon. member want? I have furnished him with the replies. The hon. member did ask me for how long a period this proclamation would still be in force, and I want to give him a reply to that: For as long as the KwaZulu leaders tell us that they require it for the maintenance of peace and calm in their territory. I accept that those people know better than we do what the position is. When they ask us to abrogate the proclamation, we shall consider doing so. But we cannot do this before that time, since we would then create a situation within the homeland of these people which they could find untenable.

And my second question?

Namely?

Whether the police were consulted before issuing the proclamation; and if so, when?

The police are always in touch with the Department of Bantu Administration and Development. This matter has been handled jointly by the police, the Department of Bantu Administration and Development and the KwaZulu Government.

On what date? [Interjections.]

There is no need for the hon. member to go to a district commandant. We have a Commissioner of Police who can handle this matter. The officials concerned are in constant touch with one another in regard to the Bantu homelands, and we bear the responsibility in that respect.