Mr. Chairman, when the House adjourned last night I was referring to the statement by the hon. member for Rondebosch that we should legalize squatting in some way, a statement with which I am unable to agree because very serious implications are involved. I do not want to deal with the matter any further.

I want to come back to an idea expressed by the hon. member for Musgrave, who said the following—

This is an important statement, with regard, too, to the provision of housing for our Coloured population. It is, of course, unthinkable that the department of the Government should make funds available to private bodies in order to enable them to make a profit. In certain respects the department already makes provision for private initiative, particularly through people who want to provide housing for themselves. The report of the department for 1971-’72 points to an amount of R2 300 000 voted for housing loans direct to individuals. This is an arrangement that most definitely deserves encouragement. Often strong objections are raised against the uniformity and the prosaic pattern of the sub-economic or emergency housing that is provided today. However, I think that the Coloured population in particular could make a far greater contribution towards varying that prosaic pattern, too, and with the aid of the Department of Community Development, could make provision for themselves to a far greater extent. I know this is already being done, but I want to urge the hon. the Minister and his department to encourage the initiative of our less well-to-do population groups, specifically the Coloured population in this case, particularly since the Coloureds possess the skill to build for themselves. What is more, they are usually very proud when they have built themselves a fine house with their own resources and with the assistance of the department. They like to show one around their houses to point out what they have accomplished.

Then there is another question that occurs to me, and that is whether the CRC could not play an important role as a liaison body with regard to the provision of houses, particularly housing of this kind, so as to help would-be Coloured house owners and channel them, so to speak, to the department in order to obtain those housing loans for them.

The next matter I want to broach here is the question of high-density housing. In this regard I do not have in mind the kind of high-density housing we have in Sea Point or in Hillbrow; what I have in mind is low-level high-density housing. Here I want to come back to a symposium on high-density housing held in Johannesburg from 27 to 29 September 1972. On this occasion, important lectures were delivered and many stimulating ideas were expressed in regard to the whole matter of high-density housing. I should like to know from the hon. the Minister whether his department has given any further attention to the decisions of this symposium since then, and whether anything can be expected to come of it? It was decided, for example, that the department be asked to encourage the idea of group-housing and cluster-housing development; that experimental prototypes for city planning schemes be designed and that suitable group-housing and cluster-housing be planned in accordance with them; that a social planning committee be appointed, etc.; that a competition be arranged under the auspices of the National Building Research Institute for the designing of high-density housing schemes; and fifthly, that criteria for minimum standards of housing as decided on at the symposium, be determined, also under the auspices of the National Building Research Institute. We had experts there who deliberated on this matter of housing. The department’s experts were also there. We should very much like to see the findings and the ideas of that conference not merely being filed; we should like to know whether any further development along these lines is envisaged by the department. I think it is very important for certain ideas to be reintroduced into city planning, particularly the type of city planning with which the department is concerned. It is clear that the department is charged with providing housing for the less well-to-do section of the population on a sub-economic or an economic level. I want to say that when one considers the figures submitted year after year, one realizes that an enormous amount has been done in past years. I think we can be proud of the fact that, through its Department of Community Development, the State has been able to accomplish so much. However, if at the same time we bear in mind that in the next 30 years or so we shall have to provide as much housing as exists in South Africa at present, then we know that a tremendous task lies before us. Possibly there are certain things in our planning which we should reintroduce. In my opinion we should get away from the present-day pattern, viz. one of blocks being subdivided into smaller blocks and tarred roads being built around virtually every second house. We should try to develop a pattern of bigger blocks of land of about two or four ha on which we should provide housing in a chain pattern enclosing large open spaces which could provide the necessary play area for children, in which lawns and fine trees could be planted and so on. I should very much like to see the hon. the Minister appointing an expert, a planner, to consider these matters so that we should not have to criss-cross every little piece of land with sewerage pipes and tarred roads and all the other services, because, Sir, one of the very high-cost items today is the provision of services for two or four or six plots. If we think in terms of 50 or 60 dwelling units in one block, then I should like to see an effort being made, when we calculate the cost, to install central sewerage systems and build fewer tarred roads, because in the present situation we know that this is also a very costly item. I should very much like to see the hon. the Minister and his department giving very earnest attention to this matter, not only to enable us to develop a new pattern—I take it that in such a pattern there could also be blocks of flats that could be alternated with another type of low-level cluster housing—so that there would also be playgrounds, etc. All this would have to be combined with the extremely important requirement of reduced expenditure, and I want to express the hope that the Department of Community Development, together with the experts it has at its disposal or whose services it can obtain, will move ahead along these lines and that, if at all possible, it will once again make a vital contribution to providing housing, particularly for our younger people, for our less well-to-do people and even for our less privileged people. Sir, I want to conclude by expressing my appreciation for the announcement made here yesterday by the hon. the Minister concerning assistance in regard to the payment of interest in the early stages for lessees who will be better able to pay a higher rent at a later stage. In my opinion this is a very important form of assistance to our young people and our people in the lower income group, and we want to express the hope that they will appreciate it and that they will employ those opportunities the department provides for them to good effect.

Mr. Chairman, the Department of Community Development is certainly one department that seldom hears the cry “Hosanna”, but more often, “crucify him”. Sometimes one also notes from letters to the Press that this department endures much criticism, one of the complaints being that too much is being done in respect of housing for non-Whites and too little in respect of housing for Whites. For that reason it is gratifying to know that, particularly here in the Peninsula and its immediate surroundings, such fine progress is being made with the provision of White housing that the waiting lists that have existed for many years, are dwindling, even to the extent that it is unnecessary to hasten the completion of these projects; instead, work can be done at the normal rate.

Sir. I am particularly grateful that at Ottery in my constituency, too, a project is under way at the moment in which about 1 600 living units are being built. A number of houses have already been completed and four blocks of flats are almost completed. I gather that for this financial year, about R¼ million has been set aside for that project, and we are very grateful for this. At Sanddrift, too, a scheme is being built by the Cape Town Municipality which will comprise 1 600 dwelling units, of which 300 to 400 have already been completed or are in the process of construction. At Bothasig, which is already a proper town, a contract has again been awarded for the construction of another 230 houses. In addition, the Cape Division Council is already building a second town at Sun Valley. At Melkbosplaas, a little to the north of Blouberg Strand, the first 500 morgen of land has now been given to the Cape Divisional Council for planning and development. In the nature of the matter, these projects contain very little sub-economic housing, because there is not such a great demand for it. But we are also grateful that at Diep River, work is in progress at the moment on 140 houses which are being renovated and improved and which will be made available specifically to the poor people in the sub-economic income group. What is more, the first occupants have already moved in.

It is therefore untrue that the housing requirements of Whites are not being properly seen to. We thank the department for what they are doing in this regard.

Mr. Chairman, I have said that there are no long waiting lists, or that the waiting lists are dwindling as far as the Whites are concerned. If we consider what I am tempted to call the countless numbers of squatters on the Cape Flats, to whom reference has already been made by a number of other members and whom I am not going to discuss this afternoon, then there are, of course, long waiting lists for housing in general. This afternoon I would prefer to emphasize other shortages which, in my opinion, also exist and which deserve our serious attention. Sir, in my opinion, there has been a tendency for us to provide housing, but not true community development. A number of houses in a group does provide for elementary needs, but when that is all one has, I do not think one can speak about true community development. Housing on its own is only one of the components of community development; there are other components too. I think we have reached the stage when local authorities can be put in a position to provide all the facets of community development, and if they do not possess the necessary funds, then I think the Department of Community Development ought to assist them by providing funds or by taking the initiative to ensure that funds held by local authorities but which have been accumulated for other purposes, may be utilized for the provision of community facilities. Sir, what I have in mind here is community halls. If there is only a group of houses, there can be no question of a cultural life; for that we need community halls, where healthy recreation can also take place. We also need sports grounds; I have in mind, too, the provision of library buildings. Sir, I think that these are essential facilities that must be arranged for and provided, whether by the local authority or by the Department of Community Development. I do not know whether an evaluation of needs has ever been made in this regard; in other words, an evaluation of needs as far as community facilities in White, Coloured and Indian areas are concerned. Nor do I know how much money would be required to provide for such needs, but what I do know is that there are local authorities that are sitting on accumulated funds that have in fact been built up for other purposes and which might just as well be used for these purposes so that one could perhaps meet these essential needs within a relatively short time.

Sir, in this regard one is of course pleading in the first instance for communities comprising sub-economic and economic income groups, but consideration could also be given to other communities which are self-sufficient in other respects, but which do not, perhaps, possess such facilities. Perhaps it could even be possible to make loans available to them, obviously at a higher rate of interest. There is also another category, namely, cases where local authorities have already made provision for such community facilities in the past and have had to negotiate loans at a high rate of interest in order to do so. If the department could consider providing assistance in this regard, one should like to see such local authorities, too, being assisted, in cases where they have already negotiated loans at a high rate of interest.

It is my opinion that where the State provides the funds for housing projects, an endeavour should be made to provide total community development and not just the mere provision of housing. In the case of future developments at Macassar in my constituency, for example, and also at Mitchell’s Plain, which is also in my constituency, and then, too, the White development at Ottery—to refer solely to my own constituency—I should really be very pleased if consideration could be given to allowing total community development to take place there and not just the provision of housing; in other words, that all these other amenities and facilities will be made available and included in the total cost of such a project, so that they may also be taken into account in determining the rent to be paid for those dwelling units, because I believe that these people too, even though they are less privileged, must pay for the facilities they enjoy. If they themselves are unable to pay for them in full, then they should at least pay for them in part. In my opinion it is much easier to provide these services from the outset than to add them on afterwards. When such a community possesses all the necessary facilities, it will also be more attractive and the people who live there will develop a group spirit and they will also be able to develop a pride in their town. As things are now, one really gets the impression sometimes that these people are only living there only because they have to and not because it is pleasant to do so.

One other matter that I should also like to mention, is the assistance already being provided by the department to local authorities for the provision of, for example, streets, pavements, sewerage and drainage in respect of existing housing projects. I get the impression that there are local authorities that are not aware of the aid offered by the department in that regard, and for that reason I wonder whether it is not perhaps time for us once again to publicize the fact that such assistance is in fact available. Now it often happens that local authorities, which also operate in accordance with a list of priorities and which also have to bear in mind where most of their rates come from, are too much inclined to axe essential services that must be provided, particularly in the Coloured areas and in the Coloured towns on their borders, if there are insufficient funds for that year with which to provide them. I think that we should again publicize the fact that assistance in providing services of that kind is in fact to be had from the Department of Community Development.

The two hon. members who spoke before me, the hon. members for Piketberg and False Bay, pointed to certain improvements which can come about in regard to the housing of people in this country. In the main I agree with the hon. member for False Bay in regard to the provision of community services in our housing schemes. I think it is imperative that in all our housing schemes provision should be made for proper community services, for instance for libraries, entertainments, recreation halls and meeting places to ensure a true community atmosphere in those townships. Similarly it is important that proper provision should be made for adequate playing fields particularly for the children in the area, and also for those who are able to enjoy various forms of sport. I think that linked with these provisions there is the overall aspect, i.e. the importance, the sociological importance, of proper housing being provided for all our race groups. I think this is the very cornerstone of family life in South Africa and indeed the very corner-stone of the sociological development of our people in the Republic. It is important to take note of the fact that where there is unsatisfactory housing conditions, as is the case in some of the Coloured ares, there is a very high incidence of crime with the result that there is a great deal of work to be undertaken by social workers to try to rehabilitate some of the families who have suffered as the result of inadequate accommodation being provided. The work of these social workers is made all the more difficult because of these housing conditions. It means that their efforts to rehabilitate these families in some cases achieve almost nothing, at least until such time as housing is improved. Recently I visited the housing section of the Coloured community in Durban where extreme difficulties are being experienced by social workers. Indeed, there are cases where children are being accommodated in institutions because their home circumstances are so poor that they are unable to be returned to their own parents. This is a great hinderance to the rehabilitation of these families, and these conditions will persist until such time as a major effort is made to improve the housing amongst the Coloured section. I know that other hon. members on this side of the House will be dealing with Coloured housing, with other aspects of it; so I do not wish to enlarge upon that particular aspect, but I do believe that it is of prime importance in all our major cities, and Durban is no exception, where the housing conditions of the Coloured people reach crisis proportions. I think it was last year that the hon. the Minister made a joint statement with the then Mayor of Durban indicating that a crash program was to be instituted to try to alleviate the situation as far as Coloured housing was concerned in that area. I hope that the hon. the Minister today will be able to give some indication as to what progress is being made in regard to that crash housing program particularly for the Coloured community in the Durban area.

The other aspect of housing with which I wish to deal is the situation as far as the elderly citizens are concerned. They are facing a very severe problem in regard to housing. There is an increasing number of older people living in the Republic and we know that the demands which are made for accommodation cannot be met. Particularly when old buildings are demolished, desperate situations can arise. People who have been living there for a number of years and who still manage to survive in some way, despite the continual increases in rents, are in trouble when the demolition order is given. To ensure that provision is made for these people, I believe it is of importance to review the situation as far as the assistance is concerned which the National Housing Commission renders through the hon. the Minister’s department.

I have referred earlier to the community services which are required in townships. I believe it is of equal importance to provide in any township project for a certain percentage of the accommodation to be made set aside for those persons who are pensioners, irrespective of whether they are private pensioners, social pensioners, civil pensioners or Railway pensioners. Subject to an economic level of income, at least 5% of the available accommodation in any scheme should be made available to such pensioners. The majority of the houses quite rightly makes provision for the family man in order to encourage him to obtain suitable accommodation. I believe it is in accordance with the hon. the Minister’s own thinking that these projects should include a proportion of housing for the older people. In 1972, when the hon. the Minister opened an extension to the Village of Happiness Home at Margate I had the opportunity of hearing him putting forward a point of view as far as the older people of the community are concerned. This Village of Happiness does provide what I consider ideal accommodation for these people. The hon. the Minister clearly indicated in that speech that he believed the older folk should remain as independent as possible and should remain within the community for as long as possible. I think the only way in which these people can remain within the community is that suitable provision be made for them as far as housing is concerned.

The local authorities do make available certain funds to assist organizations to provide housing for the people who fall within this category. Indeed, the National Housing Commission has a housing code which lays down certain standards and certain limits in terms of which this accommodation can be provided. I refer particularly to this housing code, because this has been one of the difficulties for organizations wishing to provide accommodation for the aged. Such organizations have often found that there is considerable lapse of time between the date on which the sketch plans are submitted to the local authority and the date on which authority is granted for them to proceed. Invariably building costs and the cost of providing equipment and furnishing, curtaining, carpeting, etc., have escalated in the meantime to an alarming degree. These organizations have to submit first of all an application to the local authority for a loan to be granted. A special allocation of funds have to be approved by the National Housing Commission and a need has to be proved with the Department of Social Welfare and Pensions. Invariably the plans for the proposed home travel to and fro, to Pretoria and back, for amendments which are required from time to time. In terms of the housing code for these people it is found that the limits which are placed as far as costs are concerned are today becoming unrealistic with the result that there organizations concerned can no longer establish these homes within the existing limits. If one looks at figures showing how costs have increased over recent times, a very interesting position is revealed. I recently saw an article in this regard by the Director of the National Building Research Institute of the CSIR in which it was indicated that labour costs alone were compounded up to 20% per year. At the present time South Africa’s building costs are increasing by 1¾% each month. Therefore one can see that the expeditious handling of these applications is of primary importance so that the accommodation can be provided. The limits which are placed on these loans are now becoming unrealistic. There are three categories or types of accommodation for which loans are granted by the Department of Community Development. For category A, i.e. persons who are able to look after themselves, singe-roomed houses are limited to R2 500 per resident. Double-roomed houses are limited to R3 400, which means R1 700 per resident. It is becoming almost impossible for a number of these organizations to be able to submit plans which have to meet the needs of the Department of Social Welfare and Pensions on the one hand and on the other hand may not exceed the limits which are laid down by this hon. Minister’s department. If one looks at the recent report of the South African Council for the Welfare of the Aged, one finds that in some instances these organizations have been unable to proceed with their plans to provide this very necessary accommodation because of the limits which have been laid down. I therefore wish to plead with the hon. the Minister to give due consideration to amending these limits and to ensure the expeditious treatment of applications in order to alleviate the present acute shortage of housing amongst this group of people. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, in the first part of his speech, the hon. member for Umbilo referred to the question of Coloured housing. I should like to come back to that again later on.

In the first place, I should like to convey my congratulations today to the new Secretary for Community Development, Mr. Fouché. The Department of Community Development came into being in its present form on 1 April 1964 and therefore, in the year 1974, it has attained the status of a ten-year-old Government department. As far as my own constituency of Vasco is concerned, one of the finest new plans of the Department of Community Development has come to fruition. This is the area known formerly as the Acres situated alongside Acacia Park and on both sides of the National Road. During Mr. Niemand’s term of office, it was decided that there should be a joint venture by the City Council of Goodwood on the one hand and the Department of Community Development on the other, which would lead to the establishment of an entirely new town. We were fortunate that the chairman of the committee whose task it was to convert that idea into reality was the present secretary, Mr. Fouché. Whereas the new town, Tygerdal, has now been planned in its entirety and is one of the most central residential areas of Cape Town, I should like to make one request. This place is ripe for development as is no other place in the whole of South Africa. A third of that area has already been provided with all services and it is expected that the sale of the first plots may take place shortly. In view of everything I have mentioned, I want to make a request today and ask the hon. the Minister whether he could not tell us what method is to be employed in selling the plots in that residential area. We know that the plots in this area are already waiting to be sold. We know, too, that there is a tremendous demand for this type of planned plot by the income group for whom provision is being made. If there has been a township capable of progressing within a few years from the planning stage to the stage of being fully built, then that township is the Tygerdal area. In my opinion the young family man in Cape Town is looking forward to the initial sale of plots in this area because he hopes that these plots will be sold in such a way and at such a price that they will suit his pocket. I should be one of the happiest Members of Parliament in South Africa if a method could be found to make plots available in that well-planned township on a fair basis and at a fair price.

I should now like to turn to a matter that was raised yesterday. The hon. member for Green Point just touched on it. This is the question of the right to build houses for the Coloured community that was granted at one time to South Africa’s only two utility companies, namely Garden Cities and the Citizens’ Housing League. Garden Cities started providing housing in 1922 and has therefore had 52 years of experience in this field. During this time it has built up one of the finest reputations not only with regard to the provision of housing, but also the planning of complete and happy communities. In the same way, the Citizens’ Housing League made a start with similar plans in 1929, 45 years ago, and they have already built more than 10 000 houses for White and Coloured in the Cape Peninsula. In a sense they, too, have established entire communities in entirely new towns.

Now it is true that the last houses for the Coloured community were built by these companies in about 1970 because, in terms of the Group Areas Act, they were no longer able to operate. About two years ago, appeals were made to the Government for these companies to be given the right once again to provide housing in Cape Town and vicinity for the Coloured community. The boards of directors of these companies, on which I have the privilege of representing the department, are also realistic and realize that it will not always be possible for White-orientated companies to operate in areas which are really reserved for the Coloured community. Consequently, the board of directors of Garden Cities submitted an amended request to the Department of Community Development in the course of this year.

They referred to the old Chinese proverb that one should not only supply a man with fish, one should also teach him to fish, in order that he may be assured of a supply of food. They stated that they were prepared to take the initiative in establishing the first utility company for the Coloured community in South Africa.

This proposal includes a preparedness on their part to establish a new company which could start with a board of directors comprising ten members of whom at least two members would be appointed from the Coloured community and that this board of directors would be developed over a period of about five years until 80% of the members were Coloureds. The Whites comprising 20% would only sit there as long as loans owing to the mother company, Garden Cities, had not yet been repaid.

This company is prepared even to go further and provide members of the Coloured community with the necessary training, not only on the artisan level, but also in the field of management and town planning so that within a period of five to six years after the necessary permission had been given, there would be a utility company here in Cape Town which, as a Coloured utility company, could take over the task which the White utility companies have been unable to perform since 1970.

In conclusion I should just like to point out that there is an enormous demand for the type of house that is being built by these utility companies. In the most recent township planned by Garden Cities, namely Edgmead, the waiting list is already about 800 and only about 150 to 160 houses in the price range from R12 000 to R15 000 can be provided annually. This is the economic price range for which there is the greatest demand in the whole of South Africa today. This is one of the major demands being met by this particular company and its sister company, the Citizens’ Housing League. In 1970, when the last houses were completed in the Elphindale township and sold at a price of about R6 000 to R8 000, there was still a waiting list on the books of Garden Cities of between 400 and 500 Coloureds who qualified for houses built by that company. We believe that at this stage, bearing in mind the higher incomes already earned by the Coloured community, there is going to be a far greater demand for this very economic type of house. We therefore believe that when these houses can be built in the price bracket R6 000 to R12 000, the waiting list will soon get much longer than the list that existed in 1970. It would mean that a Coloured earning R150 or more would qualify for a house in these townships which could be planned in this way. I could just mention for the information of hon. members that R100 per month is the very lowest wage paid by a company such as Garden Cities to even an unskilled labourer. There is therefore an enormous percentage of our Coloureds in Cape Town who would qualify immediately for these very houses which would initially be supplied by the subsidiary company of this utility company. This could eventually develop into a full-fledged utility company for the Coloured community and be controlled by the Coloureds themselves. If ever there was an occasion when the hon. the Minister and the new secretary could build a monument to themselves, it would be when they could give the green light for the establishment of this new model which, I think, would soon also have a fellow company, namely a subsidiary company of the Citizens Housing League. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, several hon. members have referred here to the question of community facilities. It is my intention to make a detailed statement here in connection with this question because it has become very topical, especially of late. It is a fairly detailed exposition, but I should like to furnish the Committee with full particulars of the way it is being proposed to handle this problem.

During 1973 I decided to appoint a committee to inquire into and report to me on the desirability and necessity of rendering financial and other assistance to local authorities, in addition to the assistance received by them from the Department of Community Development for the financing of housing schemes and services connected with them, in developing townships in which large numbers of persons in the lower income groups are resident, bound up with which is the provision of adequate community facilities in such areas, and, should it be found that financial assistance must be rendered in such areas, the nature and extent of such assistance, the source or sources which must provide it and the measures of control which must result from the provision of such assistance.

This committee was under the chairmanship of the present Secretary for Community Development, and the president of the United Municipal Executive of South Africa, Dr. H. Reinach, served on it personally. The other members of the committee were the Director of Local Government of the four provinces personally, the Deputy Secretaries for the Departments of Coloured Relations and Rehoboth Affairs, Administration of Coloured Affairs and Indian Affairs, the regional representatives of the Department of Community Development in Durban and the present Undersecretary (Urban Renewal and Planning) for the latter department. At the request of the president of the United Municipal Executive the city treasurer of the City Council of Johannesburg, Mr. Penrose, was also co-opted as a member of the committee.

After evaluating answers given by 47 municipalities to questionnaires, hearing oral evidence given by approximately 60 persons on behalf of bodies such as city councils of the major cities, the Coloured Persons’ Representative Council, the South African Indian Council, the Afrikaanse Handelsinstituut, the Chamber of Industries, the Chamber of Commerce, the Institute of Municipal Treasurers, and conducting a series of investigations in loco, the committee arrived at the conclusion that there was in fact a serious shortage of community facilities, especially in new and rapidly developing Coloured and Indian areas, and that the provision of such facilities was a pre-requisite for sound community development in all its facets. The committee found, furthermore, that capital resources and financing resources had to be identified and, where necessary, created to enable local authorities to provide the community facilities within the shortest possible period, and it also envisaged measures of control over the provision of such facilities.

The unanimous report and recommendations of the committee have now been considered by me and the Government, and it has been decided that the following moneys may, with the necessary consent of the Department of Community Development, be utilized for the provision of community facilities:

1. (i) Surplus maintenance and rent reserve funds (1,5% and 8,5%, respectively, on rentals) accumulated by local authorities in respect of housing schemes established with funds from the National Housing Fund in so far as they are not required for the purpose for which these funds were established. Whereas an amount of between R40 and R50 million should either be in these funds in all local authority areas in the Republic or may temporarily be applied elsewhere and will therefore become available in due course, it can go a long way towards providing these facilities.
2. (ii) Surplus rentals on redeemed housing schemes established with money from the National Housing Fund.
3. (iii) Profits from the sale of land purchased with money provided from the National Housing Fund.

In so far as the three sources which I have just mentioned may be inadequate, the financing will be as follows:

1. (a) through loans from the National Housing Fund on the following basis: at a sub-economic interest rate for communities in the sub-economic or predominantly sub-economic income groups; at an economic interest rate for communities in the economic income groups; and
2. (b) through loans at the ruling interest rate from the Community Development Fund for the few cases where these facilities are required for persons who can care for themselves:

The Government has also decided, apart from providing capital requirements, as I have indicated, to assist local authorities in reducing or wiping out, in the following ways, such deficits as may arise on their tax accounts as a result of providing community facilities by way of, for instance, interest charges on loans raised for that purpose:

1. (i) through loans, as I have indicated, at the low interest rate of 1% in the case of sub-economic complexes;
2. (ii) through the addition of the cost of essential community facilities to the cost of loans for housing schemes and services; such as the sewerage and water services they involve, when such loans are introduced so that the cost of providing the essential community facilities may form part of the housing project and may thus be financed and similarly redeemed by recovering the cost of community facilities, inter alia, from rentals or the selling prices of the houses;
3. (iii) by the addition to rentals of a percentage of 1% on all new residential projects subsequent to the rentals having been reduced by approximately 3% for the first five years of the redemption period of loans in terms of the system of deloading and loading which I announced yesterday.

In order to illustrate the addition of 1% to the rental I should like to use once again the example I used in my previous announcement.

For a dwelling which costs R7 067 the rental, at the deloading of 3% over the first five years, will only amount to R52,57 as against the present rental of approximately R65. If 1% is added to the R52,57 for community facilities, the rental for the said period will be R58,64, i.e. almost R7 per month less than the present rental. Even after ten years the rental, with a loading of 1 % for community facilities, will not be higher than it is at present.

I should like to mention the case of a less expensive dwelling, namely one that costs R2 475. In such a case the rentals will, on the basis of a deloading of 3% and a loading of 1% for community facilities, be as follows:

i.e. still approximately 8⅓% lower.

As far as the loading of 1% on new schemes for application for community facilities is concerned, it also pleases me to be able to say that the Committee of Inquiry recommended this unanimously, and that the witnesses who appeared before this Committee supported this without exception, making the statement that the communities utilizing these facilities could justifiably be expected to make a small contribution in return. Owing to practical implications it has not been possible to apply the deloading factor to existing schemes nor, therefore, the loading of 1% for assistance in financing community facilities. However, my department is still studying the matter, and I trust that it will be possible to make further adjustments in this respect as well, especially in view of the fact that the rationalization of existing rentals in respect of old and less old schemes, which I also dealt with yesterday, has now been effected after years of study and research. I should like to give the assurance that the loading of 1% does, of course, not affect the existing principle that a person should not pay more than 25% of his income for his dwelling unit; as I have in fact indicated, the payments for at least the first five years are considerably lower than is the position at present, and for at least the first ten years they are not any higher.

Further less important measures are:

• (iv) the determination of realistic land prices for property-tax purposes in cases where these prices are so low at present that they provide the local authorities with too poor a source of taxation. In addition to that the low prices and therefore artificially poor source of property tax have the disadvantage that Coloured and Indian local authority areas will as a result never be able to become properly independent;
• (v) the imposition in consultation with the provinces of a modest tax on sub-economic schemes;
• (vi) the debiting of the cost of tarred streets and storm-water drainage against the prices of stands; and
• (vii) the debiting of an endowment of 5% against prices of stands in townships being developed by local authorities themselves.

Mr. Chairman, I am convinced that the measures I have mentioned will go very far towards satisfying in due course the great need for community facilities without detracting from the active provision of housing, for everybody will agree that housing will always remain a matter of top priority. As against that it is also a fact, however, that a community, i.e. a full-fledged one as is being striven after by my department and by local authorities, cannot come into being and subsist without essential community facilities. Therefore, in order to promote further the development of communities and the provision of community facilities for them, i.e. in addition to the measures I have mentioned above, the Government has decided, also on the unanimous recommendation of the committee, that the Department of Community Development should, since the measures I have already spelt out are so closely connected with its functions, financial and otherwise, be charged with the supervision and control over these facilities, which will, inter alia, include the following:

1. (i) ensuring that surplus moneys in the reserve funds to which I referred will, apart from the purpose for which the funds were created, be available for community facilities and will in fact be used to that end and not for other purposes, and that proof of this be submitted by way of audit reports;
2. (ii) laying down—in consultation with local authorities and directors of local government and other interested bodies such as, in the case of sports fields, the Department of Sport and Recreation and, in the case of Coloured areas, the Department of Coloured Relations and possibly a member of the Coloured Persons Representative Council or nominee, and, in Indian areas, the Department of Indian Affairs and a member of the National Indian Council or nominee—general standards of community facilities provided with loans from the National Housing Fund or Community Development Fund or from reserve funds, and for this purpose, the appointment by me as the Minister of Community Development of a standards committee;
3. (iii) the right my department and I have to request local authorities, and if inevitable, to force them to provide certain community facilities within given periods, provided that the financial resources can be made available; (judging by the co-operation between my department and the town councils that has been experienced of late, I have strong doubts whether any action other than negotiations and closer cooperation will ever be necessary); and
4. (iv) the right of inspecting accounts kept by way of supplementing the revenue accounts of local authorities for application for community facilities, such as rent accounts, property accounts, profits from the sale of land purchased with moneys from the National Housing Fund, etc.

Finally, the Government has decided that donations may be made on a rand-for-rand basis in order to supplement the relief measures and the sources which I have mentioned, and that in the case of small towns which have fewer than 1000 registered voters and which do not having housing schemes worth mentioning, assistance may also be granted from the National Housing Fund for providing community facilities where a need for such assistance exists.

It is also important to mention that local authorities will from now on, when applying for loans for housing schemes, also have to include applications for essential community facilities, as well as applications for assistance for properly rounding off the grounds surrounding dwelling units so that towns may be more attractive. I have little doubt that these steps will lead to more attractive towns and happier full-fledged communities. I trust that local authorities will now make ample use of these facilities and, provide the necessary facilities at the fastest rate possible. I think that exposition which I have given is to a large extent, though not entirely, the answer to the representations made here in regard to the provision of community facilities. It has been accepted by the bodies concerned in the matter that it is desirable for this to be done, and that, where this need may arise, the additional burden, which fall on inhabitants of those communities cannot be a very serious one.

Then I want to start with the speech made by the hon. member for Musgrave yesterday, and I want to agree with him that proper housing for every population group is priority No. 1. It is important, but I want to go further and ask where the responsibility for proper housing lies in the first place. My reply to that is that the responsibility for the proper housing of a family rests primarily with the head of that family. That is elementary. He must, in the first place, try to arrange his affairs in such a way that he can ensure that his family is housed properly. I think this is a principle one cannot argue against. At a later stage we shall be faced with situations in respect of which I want to impress this fact—and I think this is a fact—on hon. members of this Committee.

In the second place, I should say that the employer who has people in his service also has a responsibility to try to look after the proper housing of the people working for him. It is not only in the interests of that employee, but also in the interests of that employer that his employee should have proper housing. It is in his interests that that person should be happy, and in that way he will win that person’s loyalty and, as it were, bind that employee to him. It is only in the third instance that the public bodies enter the picture, i.e. the local authority and eventually the department. It is their task to step so as to lend a hand where no assistance is being received, where the necessary provision cannot be made without outside assistance. With these reservations, therefore, I want to agree with the hon. member for Musgrave. I want to agree with the hon. member that the backlog in housing to which he referred here is a formidable one in certain respects. Not for a single moment do I want to deny this, but I want to tell this hon. member and the other hon. members who also referred to it, that I am not as pessimistic about the situation as hon. members opposite showed themselves to be. I am not as pessimistic as that, since I believe that this position can be brought under control, not today and not tomorrow, but with the necessary will and provided that the country’s economy makes it possible for funds to be made available constantly—and these are matters on which we can but speculate—we should, I should say, have the position under control reasonably soon, depending on the magnitude of the problem. The position today is that as far as Whites and also, to a large extent, Indians are concerned, the position can be described as being reasonably under control. We still have work that has to be done, we still have a backlog that has to be wiped out, but in my mind I have no doubt that this position will in five years’ time look considerably different from the way it does today.

But let us look at the position of the Coloureds. I want to tell hon. members that a change has also taken place here, a change in approach, to be more specific. You will know, Sir, that in the years when the National Housing Fund came into being, in 1920, and since those years, this fund was used primarily for looking after the Whites, and over the whole period from 1920 up to the fifties more was spent on housing for Whites than on housing for Coloureds. This is perhaps one of the reasons why we have a more favourable position today as far as the Whites are concerned, but in the last few decades the emphasis has shifted, and at present the number of dwelling units with which Coloureds are being provided—I am not referring to the finances now, because that is not a good comparison; I am referring to dwelling units—is twice as many, or more than twice as many, as the number with which Whites are being provided. That picture has been reversed. The hon. member for Umbilo referred to my consultation and joint statement with the mayor of Durban.

I do not think this is news to this Committee, because this is common knowledge. However, an understanding was reached between my department and the Durban Corporation in terms of which both bodies accepted that the position as regards Coloured housing in Durban would be under control in approximately five years’ time. By that I do not wish to suggest that there will no longer be a shortage of houses after five years, because there is natural population growth and there is also a problem of inflow, and one cannot determine beforehand what the extent of the inflow will be. It is being estimated, however, that in four or five years’ time the position ought to be under control in the Durban area.

The hon. member for Umbilo wanted to know whether any progress was being made. I can inform him that to my knowledge progress is being made in terms of our planning. Problems are in fact being experienced here and there, but they are solved and we are making headway. It is expected that it will be possible to complete 1 700 houses this year. I also reached an agreement with the Johannesburg City Council after there had been deliberation between the City Council and my department on the extent of the need, on methods by which the problem may be overcome, and the period within which this can be done with the financial means at our disposal. In this case, too, a joint statement was issued by the mayor and me. The calculations in this case also indicate that we ought to have the position under control in about five years’ time. The same position applies in respect of Port Elizabeth, for according to our calculations the picture there will also be quite different in five years’ time. I mention only the most important centres in which problems are being experienced.

In Cape Town the position is far more difficult, and as I react to points raised by hon. members, I shall probably have something more to say about the position here. When I refer to the Cape area. I mean the areas of the Cape Town City Council, the Cape Divisional Council and the Divisional Council of Stellenbosch. We see these areas as a unit. As far as these areas are concerned, the shortage of housing is in the vicinity of 50 000 at the moment. We can accept this to be the case. In terms of the present planning these local authorities ought to be able to provide 50 000 houses with the aid of my department over the next five years—and here I must repeat that this is conditional on our financial means lasting. This does not mean that the problem will then have been solved, because in respect of the natural increase alone, it is expected that 5 000 additional houses will be necessary every year. This means that over the next five years a further 25 000 houses will have to be built, and then we still have the problem of the inflow of Coloureds from rural areas.

We are nevertheless seeing daylight in the sense that in five years’ time the position should in any case be considerably better than it is at present. With the pattern in terms of which matters are now being tackled and the co-operation which has been obtained wherever it has been necessary, so much so that my department and the local authorities are virtually going hand in hand, I think we ought to be able to eliminate this problem within the foreseeable future. The term “foreseeable future” is relative, but I think we ought to be able to look at a fairly different picture in five years’ time.

Next I want to deal with the speech made by the hon. member for Musgrave. He expressed some reservations about the accuracy of my department’s statistics. I think those statistics are as accurate as can be. Apart from my department’s observations and knowledge of a situation, we also make use of the information furnished by local authorities. After all, they are the people who know, or who ought to know what the position in their areas is. In addition to that we check this information with the Department of Census and Statistics. Then we also make use of the information collected by private research workers. Two of the people whose sources we can sue are Dr. Enslin and Prof. Cilliers, both of whom have done research in this field. It has never been our experience that we have been very wide of the mark as far as our statistical estimates are concerned.

The hon. member for Musgrave put forward the suggestion that more use should be made of private entrepreneurs, but I do not know whether I understood the hon. member correctly. However, if this is in fact the case, I can tell him that we are in fact making use of private undertakings in so far as this is possible. We are making use of private contractors. But if the hon. member meant that private enterprise with capital of its own should provide housing in these areas, I can tell him that we would be looking for trouble if we did that. Private enterprise enters that field with objectives different from those of the local authorities and the department.

A few weeks ago I had a conversation with one such private entrepreneur. When I asked what he sought to achieve by way of this scheme he wanted to undertake in Coloured areas, he told me frankly that he was a businessman and that his motive was profit. I firmly believe that if the private undertakings of the Coloureds could enter the field and make normal profits as we Whites do, I would not begrudge them such profits, but I do have objections to White entrepreneurs going into those areas to make profits. That would not be in the interests of the Coloured community. In this way a few hundred or a few thousand houses could perhaps be built quickly, which is a relatively small number in comparison with our overall problem, but I do not think that this would offer us a solution.

The hon. member for Musgrave also mentioned the most economic building methods. My department is in close contact with the National Building Research Institute. We are informed and we are aware of all the latest developments in respect of modern building techniques. However, no miracles have as yet been produced in that respect. We have in fact gained experience, though, which is worth a great deal to us.

The hon. member also mentioned the encouragement of young people and people in the middle income group who wanted to build their own houses. I do not know what exactly the hon. member has in mind, but there are several schemes, which I do not want to mention now but which are being administered by my department, aimed at encouraging people to build their own houses. Therefore, I do not know what the hon. member has in mind in this respect.

The hon. member came back to the old problem of last year, namely the report of the Johannes Committee. I took a stand on this matter last year, and I am still not prepared to table this report. The committee reported to me as Minister. It is for my information only. Whenever I look at that report, I have reason to believe—and this was also the spirit in which it was conveyed to me—that people and bodies gave evidence before this committee in the conviction that what they had to say would be confidential. This is the way I was informed, and whenever I look at this report I get the impression that this is in fact the case, and I am not going to break my faith with those people if they were in fact under that impression. The results of that committee’s work are contained in a Bill which is before this House at the moment.

Mr. Chairman, may I ask the hon. the Minister a question? Is the hon. the Minister suggesting that witnesses before that commission gave evidence on the assurance that the report would not be published?

Those people could have been under the impression that the report was not going to be published.

Could you not publish the report by making the witnesses anonymous and representing them as Mr. X, Mr. Y, etc.?

The names of the bodies were included in the report of the committee’s activities.

The hon. member for Musgrave referred to the Sectional Titles Act. I am not in a position to comment on that Act at this stage and it is not my intention to do so either, because my department does not administer that Act. We only have an objective interest in that Act. The Act does not fall directly under my department.

The hon. member also complained about the annual report being late. If Parliament had sat in May, my department would have had the report for the preceding year, i.e. 1972, ready just in time. That is the time required for drafting the report. As I am saying, it would have been ready in May, but the session started much later. My department tried to have the report for 1973 ready for this session, but that was not possible because there was too much work that had to be done in that regard.

But they have been doing it for years.

The fact of the matter is that usually the report is ready just in time for the session which is still in progress in May, and this was one again the case this year.

It is a year and a half late.

I cannot understand it.

I do not know what the hon. member for Jeppe’s problem is, but these are the facts of the matter. Could I perhaps explain it to the hon. member for Jeppe the other way round? If, when this Vote comes up for discussion in May, he wants me to have already tabled the report for the previous year—in this case for 1973—I must tell him that this is impossible for my department.

Why can it not be tabled in August?

But, surely, I have just said that my department tried to do so but could not finish it. What use would it have in any case? During our session next year I shall in any case not have a report to table.

The hon. member for Tygervallei referred to the provision of transit camps in order to cope with the problem of the squatters on the Cape Flats. I do not wish to dwell on this problem. I just want to say that there are in fact good arguments to be advanced in favour of the provision of such transit camps, but that there are also good arguments to be advanced against it. I am aware of the temporary provision which was made by the Divisional Council of Stellenbosch and to which I did in fact refer. This is a new development there, and I intend going there to have a look at it and to obtain particulars of the cost involved and to see how it works. However, I want to add that we shall be causing new and greater problems if we are going to create situations whereby we attract more and more people to the Cape Flats. Prof. Cilliers estimated at a certain stage—I cannot remember exactly when this was—that 25% of the increase in the population in the Cape area was attributable to the inflow of people from the rural areas. Therefore, if one should, over and above that, create the necessary facilities to make it even more attractive as well, we would be creating considerably greater problems for ourselves. The position is such that if we are to think today of clearing up a squatter community by way of temporary provision of some kind or other, we are talking in terms of several millions of rand and several years which will in any case be taken up by it. Unless we can find a better solution, I should rather see us going full steam ahead with the development in which we are engaged at the moment and providing these people with housing as quickly as possible.

The hon. member for Green Point also referred to the position of the squatters and mentioned an interesting yet strange consideration, i.e. what is being done in Malawi, where they have a similar problem. There are certain questions which have now occurred to me, and I want to ask the hon. member to give me more information on them when he gets a turn to speak again. We have experience of the provision of land and services to people, e.g. in Elsie’s River, but in Elsie’s River it costs us R5 million today to clear up that mess. Something one should very definitely guard against is to create a bigger problem in five or ten years’ time by applying a quick solution to the problem one has at the moment. I know there is talk of what is being done in Malawi. It is said that we should try to make material available to the people. It seems to me we are making a positive contribution to and spending money on creating new slum areas which, in the future, will only be a greater problem than they are at present.

The hon. member also referred to houses here in the Cape which were becoming dilapidated. The position in that regard is that local authorities and individuals can obtain assistance from the department for the renewal of such grounds and buildings. In this very regard we had a special committee under the chairmanship of the present Secretary for the department. A report was published in this regard. What is more, there are cities which have availed themselves of that assistance, e.g. Johannesburg and Heilbron. Recently the department has, more over, asked all the local authorities once again to avail themselves of the facilities at their disposal so as to prevent decay from setting in.

The hon. member for Green Point referred to the reduction of interest on mortgages. I could not really find out what the hon. member had in mind. I do not know whether there is to be a further subsidy on the interest.

I want mortgage payments to be exempt from tax. The real position would then be to reduce the interest on mortgages from 10% to 7½%.

To me this looks like a question which the hon. member should rather settle with my colleague the Minister of Finance. It does not come within my province. The hon. member also referred to the developments undertaken by utility companies. The hon. member for Vasco also referred to them. Perhaps I should deal at once with the hon. member for Vasco’s statement in that regard. When utility companies have to approach the department for the funds they are going to apply, they are in fact not rendering a service. My department does not have problems with the machinery for providing houses. My department co-operates with 900 local authorities. Each of them has some machinery at its disposal, apart from the machinery which my department itself can make available. It is a question of funds. My department, along with the local authorities, ploughs in the funds as quickly as they are made available to us. In other words, the establishment of a utility company which also wants to build with funds provided by my department does not really amount to a contribution being made. The idea which the hon. member for Vasco expressed here, which apparently is also an idea entertained by Garden Cities and the Housing League, is that they will get Coloured enterprise interested in those Coloured areas, in the form of, for instance, companies which can be established through their instrumentality. I want to say at once that this is an idea which looks attractive to me. When it is submitted to me, I shall study it carefully. We want the Coloured community itself to become involved in the provision of their own housing.

The hon. member for Boksburg made inquiries in connection with high-density housing. The hon. member for Piketberg also referred to it. I can say that my department is already, to a considerable extent, implementing the recommendations of the symposium in Johannesburg. My department is already providing group and cluster housing in areas such as Jeppe and Albertville in Johannesburg, in Germiston and in several other urban complexes. However, the National Building Research Institute is working on more research in this regard. In the recommendations which appear in the annual report, it is also indicated clearly that further research has to be done. This is to a large extent being done already.

The hon. member for Rondebosch also took up the standpoint that we could not keep pace with the natural increase in population. I could not find out just how the hon. member made his calculation. I find it a pity that the hon. member was absent—he did apologize—while I was giving a survey of how we are overcoming this problem, as I see it. In this regard I may perhaps tell the hon. member that I believe that we shall reach the stage in the Cape area this year where we shall be building houses at a faster rate than that of the natural increase. I have already given the House a survey, and the hon. member is welcome to consult it if he deems it necessary. The hon. member said he wanted there to be areas where people could squat lawfully. They are squatting unlawfully today, but at certain places they are also squatting lawfully. I understand that they go and squat on privately owned land, on payment of rent. I do not know how correct my information is, but the rent is sometimes higher than what would be charged for a sub-economic house. The truth of the matter is that they simply are there and that they create a problem, and one is relatively powerless in the face of that. But to allow people to squat lawfully is virtually tantamount to aiding and abetting the growth of a problematic situation. I have referred to the inflow from the rural areas, which is up to 25% responsible for the situation we have on the Cape Flats. I do not want to quote too long a passage, but I nevertheless want to quote just one paragraph to the hon. member for Rondebosch from the report drawn up by the Director of Housing of the Cape Town City Council. The report is dated 6 September 1974. This will perhaps give the hon. member an idea of how the problem is developing and what the nature of it is, and show him that the problem cannot be solved so easily, i.e. by legalizing squatting. I quote—

What the hon. member is actually asking now is that we should legalize the actions of those people. The hon. member attributed the problem we have to resettlement as a result of the implementation of the Group Areas Act. The conclusion drawn by the hon. member is not correct. My department has furnished me with statistics in respect of eight or nine of our largest centres in South Africa in order to indicate the position there. The indications were that on an average 7,25% of the people who were resettled came from dwellings which one could have regarded as being worthy of a human being. More than 92%—92,75%, in fact—came from slums. Now, if I think of what I have seen, what I have seen in certain areas on the Rand and what I have seen at Germiston and elsewhere, I want to say that we are resettling those people on the basis of group-area planning. Whether or not there was a Group Areas Act, those people must be resettled. Those people are living under the most distressing circumstances. It is easy for the hon. member to ask me how many people have been resettled under the Group Areas Act. It is easy to turn around and say: “Look at this number; there are so many thousands of them; this is why you do not have houses for these people; you have kicked them out of the houses in which they used to live.” As I have said, 92% of these people came from slums from which they had to be removed in any case. I do not think that that responsibility should be related to the policy of group areas.

The hon. member for Piketberg also referred to high-density housing. I think what I have already said will have answered his questions. He also referred to a saving on the provision of services. In this regard I want to give him the assurance that my department, with the expert knowledge of the people at its disposal, is working on it. Wherever savings can possibly be effected, it is done.

The hon. member for False Bay referred to community facilities. I think I have already given the answer in this regard. Since this is his constituency, I just want to tell him that the provision of community facilities in Mitchell’s Plain is being made together with the development of the housing scheme. The provision of community facilities alone will cost approximately R1 million.

The hon. member for Umbilo elaborated further on the care of the aged and pensioners. Wherever a township is planned, due regard is had to the economic standing and the socio-economic circumstances of the people who are to be housed there. In this regard the necessary provision is being made as far as possible. As far as housing for the aged is concerned, I am aware that problems arise. However, my department has a standards committee consisting of people with special experience in this regard. They lay down those standards, because we must peg standards on a certain level. Should the community want to go further, they will have to pay for it themselves. Where public funds are used, the standards must be laid down. We have to cope with rising costs, and in this regard there is consultation between my department and the Housing Commission. I have recently had a few cases where we have had to cope with the question of rising costs. These cases were investigated; there was consultation and solutions were found.

Sir, I think I have now replied to the questions that have been raised here up to now.

Mr. Chairman, I think most hon. members have been pleased to hear the report of the hon. the Minister on his policy in relation to the question of subsidizing the financing of community facilities in low income group housing areas. I know that the hon. the Minister is very mild of manner, but do I hope that he was disguising his enthusiasm and that in fact he is tremendously enthusiastic about this and that this enthusiasm is going to be transmitted to his department and all the people concerned. Sir, it is one thing to have a plan and it is quite another thing to enthuse people to accept the plan and to put it to good effect. Sir, the other point is that the hon. the Minister, correctly to an extent, referred to the fact that “dit berus by die hoof van die gesin en by die werkgewer in die eerste instansie om woongeriewe te verskaf”.

*Mr. Chairman, this may be correct, but it is incumbent on the Government not to place any obstacles in the way of either the head of the family or the employer in providing the necessary housing. In the course of my speech I shall briefly react to this.

†Mr. Chairman, I think the general accord that there has been in this debate is an indication of the seriousness with which hon. members consider the problem of providing housing and the problems that exist in relation to the provision of housing for certain income groups. I can only deal very briefly with two of these. First of all, I want to touch on a very real problem in relation to the housing of older White people living in the urban areas. Sir, the style of urban living is changing. The cost of land, the cost of providing the necessary infrastructure, means that fewer and fewer older people can live in single-unit residences; that in practice fewer can live with their families and that more are required to live in apartments or flats or multi-unit dwellings. While the Minister has clearly got a policy to ease the burden on the younger people and even older people in the lower income group who wish to purchase houses, he appears not to have a positive policy to ease the position of people who live in apartments. He tends to rely very heavily indeed on the Rents Act. In fact this is a form of subsidized housing for older people, especially pensioners, but the subsidy is borne by the individual landlord and not by the State. When one examines this in practice—and I will recount certain figures to the hon. the Minister—one finds that the application of the Rents Act is in fact not providing adequate protection for pensioners and older people living in rent-controlled flats; it is also inhibiting the building of new apartments in the city areas and in this way it is aggravating the housing shortage. The problem is that while the Rents Act is being used, it is not being used in such a way as to make a positive contribution to the alleviation of the housing shortage or to the protection of the individuals concerned. Sir, I need only recount the figures given by the hon. the Minister himself which show that in the Sea Point area there were 313 applications for rent increases in one years; of these 302 were agreed to, and the Minister stated in this House that the average increase in one year was 38%. Sir, if the Rent Board could agree to an average increase of 38% in one year then there must be something wrong with the practical application of the Rents Act. Nothing has happened in the course of one year to justify an increase of 38%. There is clearly something wrong and there is not the necessary protection. People who had to pay a rental of R50 per month, now have to pay R67 a month, and if the measure which is going to be placed before the House later on comes into effect, they will pay another 10% and, with increased interest rates, a further 10%, making it R80 per month. So the Rents Act is not effective, whatever the intention of the hon. the Minister may be. I believe that in respect of these older people, the pensioners, living in the urban areas, there has to be a complete revision of Government policy. The Minister must adopt a positive policy in this regard, and if the Rents Act is pivotal in his thinking, then I believe he must have a complete overhaul of the Rents Act, a thorough commission of inquiry, to see whether it is effective in giving protection, and to see whether it is not perhaps stultifying the provision of further accommodation, and to determine whether the State is carrying out its responsibilities in providing accommodation for the retired lower and middle income group people living in the city areas. I ask the Minister to consider this very seriously, especially in the light of the sharp rise in the cost of living in recent times.

Now, to return briefly to the position of Coloured housing, it is so that much has been done and that the hon. the Minister has announced his intention of improving the performance in the future. But in spite of everything that has been done in the past 20 years in the greater metropolitan area of Cape Town, at no stage has the number of Coloured people not housed been reduced. In other words, over the past 20 years one has merely kept pace with the natural increase and the increase as the result of migration from outside. Sir, the whole housing situation is aggravated by the impact of the Group Areas Act. Without getting involved with the ideological concept of this Act, it does involve the replacement of a significant number of houses which were formerly occupied and which could have been renovated or which were not in a slum condition. It also for practical purposes denies the Coloured man access to the ordinary capital market from which he could have got money before, because White companies—and it is the White companies which form the essential capital market—cannot advance money on mortgage bonds to Coloureds as they cannot acquire that property in their own name.

Also, Sir, there is no doubt that in this whole concept of communities, the impact of the Group Areas Act has been to destroy the very valuable community content of the areas in which these people were living. Whilst you might say that “plakkerdorpe” are bad things, oddly enough in the “plakkerdorp” or squatters’ camp there is probably a stronger community content than in many of the new housing schemes. There is probably less crime there because you have the infrastructure of the community, although you might not have the appropriate standard of housing. So, Sir, I want to suggest a few positive steps in the provision of housing.

First of all, I believe there should be a review of priorities in terms of resources within the total building potential of South Africa. I think the Government must itself stop going in for grandiose and extravagant Government buildings. I think there should be a directive to the provinces and to the local authorities and to the quasi-Government agencies that there should be a campaign of austerity in relation to large building projects, and the money, the workmen, the architects and the other people involved should be shifted over into the field of housing.

That is cheap publicity.

Secondly, I believe there are serious problems, not only on the financial side but on the side of the expertise. I believe there should be a crash programme for training Coloured people as draughtsman, as designers, as architects, as clerks of works and as engineers because a manpower bottleneck is developing and the hon. the Minister is aware of this. There is a manpower shortage in the whole field of building and township design and this is having its impact on Coloured housing. Thirdly, the private sector does want to assist with housing. I think there is a motivation amongst many people in the private sector to assist in Coloured housing. I agree that one does not want exploitation of Coloured people and therefore there can be restrictions placed on how this housing should be provided. But, Sir, the important stumbling-block in the way of the provision by the private sector of housing for Coloureds is that White-owned companies cannot own the land during that time that they are developing the land in order to promote housing schemes. We have had the example of the Marina Da Gama and the plea by Mayor Bloomberg that that developer company should take its expertise and its money and undertake a similar type of scheme for Coloured people. It cannot do that because it cannot assemble the land in order to resell it to the Coloured people. There are moves through the Chambers of Commerce and in consultation with the Department of Community Development to devise an administrative procedure which will enable private enterprise to assemble land, to set out townships, and under control as far as costs and profits are concerned, to resell these to Coloured people. However, what has happened is that the Coloured people, for all practical purposes, have been cut off from the capital market. This has made their position extremely difficult.

On the question of the community I believe that the hon. the Minister as well as other hon. members sense the importance, not of housing as such, but of communities. I believe that a community and a community spirit can be created not just by amenities, although they are important, but by the design of the township itself. I think much more attention should be given to the design of lower-income group townships to see that they themselves are conducive to the creation of a community spirit. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, I listened to the hon. member for Sea Point attentively and I must say there are certain points the hon. member raised to which the hon. the Minister will no doubt reply.

An important point in respect of housing decidedly is that the replacement of housing has become a problem. The hon. member as well as other hon. members always claim that the clearance of areas and the moving of people from such areas is related to the ideology of this side of the House. The hon. members believe that our policy of group areas causes inconvenience. In the fine spirit at present prevailing in the Committee in respect of housing, I honestly think that we should realize that it is necessary for group areas to be proclaimed, and to be proclaimed more expeditiously too. All this talk in the House and the wars of words being waged in the newspapers about group areas are retarding the process. What we need is housing, and not hymn-singing.

I briefly want to sketch the picture in Johannesburg. In the first place I want to dwell on White housing in that city. There the provision of housing for Whites is reasonably good, but there is also a problem. The problem arises where widows or widowers in group … Everyone has so much to say about group areas that even I want to place the Whites in group areas now, in which we in fact are, not so? We are also in group areas, contrary to what the hon. members think. The hon. members think that only non-Whites are in group areas.

We have a large group area. [Interjections.]

The hon. member for Langlaagte said something which is very important.

The fact is that when a couple of elderly people are living in a housing scheme and one falls away, a problem arises for the widow or widower who remains behind in such a house. I believe we receive a great deal of assistance from the department to help solve this problem for such a person, but normally the one who is left behind does not have a large enough income to afford to pay the rent. There is also another problem which arises when a person living in a housing scheme receives notice that he has to vacate his house within approximately three months’ time. We all know how difficult it is to acquire a house of one’s own within a period of three or six months. I thank the department for the fine manner in which they treat people, but an interim period should be allowed in which people would be afforded a better opportunity to acquire a house of their own. Furthermore. I want to plead for the establishment of a body which could furnish the people with information as to where they could obtain a loan to build their own home. I am particularly grateful for places such as Suideroord, Johannesburg, where a home-ownership scheme exists. If one thinks of places such as Montgomery Park and De Wetshof where there are fine houses today, one is glad to know that this department is providing for the needs of our people.

Let us refer to the Coloureds in Johannesburg. Hon. members know that we in Johannesburg do not often speak about Coloureds, but that we do in fact do a great deal for them.

Oh, yes? And what about Adam Small?

Yes, we do a great deal for the Coloureds. Let me give hon. members a brief review of what we are doing. During the 1973-’74 financial year 2 000 dwelling units were built in Eldorado Park. In the current financial year a further number of approximately 1 000 houses ought to be built. Let me just give hon. members the fine situation in Eldorado Park. 2 061 houses were built there, of which 414 are economic houses which are on the market.

What about the streets and the lights?

The hon. member now wants to know about the streets and the lights. Has the hon. member ever been in Eldorado Park? The hon. member should please try not to interject, for I want to tell him what is happening at present. After the National Party had set the example with Lenasia and other residential areas, the United Party city councils, the Johannesburg City Council, for example, the light started dawning on them. Had city councils co-operated with the National Party at an earlier stage, the slum areas which still exist today would not have been in existence. The clearance of slum areas was undertaken at Sophiatown, Martindale and at other places. Has the hon. member ever visited Lenasia? Has the hon. member ever visited Eldorado Park? Did he not find that this is one of the most beautiful housing complexes for urban areas existing in that area? Today I want to take off my hat to the present city council and, in particular, to the chairman of the Housing Committee, Councillor Ober-holzer, who, in conjunction with the department, is doing a grand job of work to the benefit of the Coloureds.

Have you ever been to Riverlea?

The hon. member asks whether I have ever been to Riverlea. I want to tell him that one encounters people who do not clear up after themselves at any place.

Are you blaming them?

Yes, there are people who do not clear up after themselves. I concede that a number of old cars and such-like are lying about there. However, I want to tell the hon. member that one should never seek out the worst. In Hong Kong the world’s largest housing scheme is under construction, while in Tigerbone Garden, towards the province of Canton, one finds the largest slums in the world. Prints of that housing scheme, on cards and slides, are sold to show this scheme to the world. One should not always look at the exceptions. One finds a dustbin in any house. Look at the house and not at the dustbin. The problem we have at Lenasia at present, is not a problem which can be solved by people. Time does not permit me, however, to give a detailed description of the problem, but I just want to say that this problem is caused largely by the presence of dolomitic formations in that area. South Africa is a country in which dolomitic formations run from one side of the Western Transvaal, through Verwoerdburg. Valhalla and those places, right up to Rhodesia. I think we are too strict in regard to dolomitic areas. I think we are too strict when we tell people that they may not build in areas because there are subterranean dolomitic formations. The costs involved in an investigation into the presence of dolomite are high, and although we believe that this has to be done, we cannot afford to leave these large areas around Lenasia and other places vacant and not build on them. There are large areas which are being planned today. Water drainage, when implemented correctly, is a stabilizing factor. I would say that if water could be diverted from the dolomitic area in the correct manner, it would create no problems. Because boring for the purposes of diverting water is not permitted in an urban area, the water level remains static and that is why it holds no danger. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, in the few moments I have at my disposal I should like to raise two matters pertaining to my constituency with the hon. the Minister. I gave my voters an undertaking and I should like to honour that undertaking this afternoon. In the first place I want to refer the hon. the Minister to the Valleisig housing scheme. The hon. the Minister is well acquainted with matters; he knows what that scheme looks like since officials from his department and others have visited the scheme on several occasions. I also want to avail myself of this opportunity to express my thanks and appreciation, on behalf of my voters, to the hon. the Minister as well as the local regional representative of his department in Port Elizabeth for the attention they have devoted to that scheme and for the fact that the hon. the Minister has regularly made funds from the National Housing Fund available for that scheme.

However, I have one problem to which I want to refer. Some of my voters, whose monthly incomes vary from R110 to R220 on the average, are living in that scheme. All of them are married and have dependent children. From time to time, as the interest rate increases, their rentals are increased. I am very grateful for the statement the hon. the Minister made to the House yesterday; I do not know how that statement is going to affect the Valleisig housing scheme. The people who have been living in Valleisig since the scheme was started in 1967, paid R33 per month in rental at that time. The newest houses in that area are not built from the funds of the National Housing Fund, but from funds which the local authority had to obtain elsewhere. The hon. the Minister is thoroughly aware of that as well. According to my information the rentals of those houses will amount to approximately R80 per month when they are completed.

I want to avail myself of this opportunity to thank my local city council for the co-operation we have received from them in this regard. I do not know how this statement made by the hon. the Minister is going to affect that housing scheme, but I should like to ask the hon. the Minister, if any increases in rentals are envisaged in Valleisig, to be so kind as to give serious consideration to abandoning the idea. I feel that my voters living in Valleisig just cannot afford further increases. They are grateful for the houses they have obtained; it is a fine scheme which is being extended virtually every day and it is situated in one of the best parts of Uitenhage. I want to address a polite request to the hon. the Minister to ensure that there is no increase in rental, that is if an increase is indeed being envisaged.

The second matter I want to raise with the hon. the Minister is the housing scheme at Fairbridge Heights. We have very many problems there. The money spent on the scheme also came from the National Housing Fund. The city council gave that scheme out on contract, the houses were built and now I am being inundated with complaints every day that those houses are full of defects. Many houses crack, and so forth, but I do not want to burden the hon. the Minister with everything taking place there. The fact of the matter is that few of those houses were built properly. I want to say at once that the hon. the Minister’s department has been very accommodating. They are negotiating with the Uitenhage City Council at present to see whether those defects cannot be remedied. I want to tell the hon. the Minister that, if I read the signs correctly, it would seem to me as though the Uitenhage City Council will not be able to bear that financial burden on its own. Apparently the contractor will not be able to bear it either; I do not know the amount of the retention moneys involved, nor could I ascertain what the true state of affairs was in this regard. The fact remains that the Uitenhage City Council, on its own, will not be able to bear the financial burden involved in repairing those houses. I want to ask the hon. the Minister whether he cannot suggest a plan. If the Uitenhage City Council cannot manage on its own and cannot repair the houses at Fairbridge Heights, could he tell us what the Department of Community Development could do to help us in that regard? I would be particularly grateful if he would give urgent attention to these two matters I have submitted to him.

Mr. Chairman, the hon. member for Uitenhage spoke about matters relating to his constituency and he will therefore not take it amiss of me if I do not react to what he said. Before the hon. member spoke, the hon. member for Langlaagte said something here which I find quite interesting. I see the hon. member is not here at present. He said we should deal more expeditiously with the proclamation of group areas. What exactly he means by that, I do not know. If that is the only way to get better service from the department, then perhaps things should happen in that way. He speaks of “group areas being proclaimed more expeditiously”. I just want to tell him how slow the proclamation of group areas was in respect of one of his friends.

There is a provision in the community development legislation which lays down that the basic value of a property has to be determined first. Valuators are employed to determine the basic value of a property. I do not know why this is so, but unfortunately it so happens that the valuators who are appointed feel that they would be doing the Government a favour by attaching the lowest possible value to that affected property. The owner of the relevant house is not a member of the population group for whose occupation the area is intended. The property is, therefore, an affected property. As I have said, in such instances valuators are appointed who try to keep their valuations as low as possible. The person then has to appear before an appeal board to lodge an appeal against this basic value. It may easily take a few years for the entire matter to be settled and for the owner to know what the actual value of his property is going to be. It is a fairly expensive process, for lawyers have to be appointed to perform this task. Once the case has been settled, the owner has still lost some of his money, for the amount payable is not normally settled in full by the department.

What is the moral of that story?

The report I have here states that there is going to be an improvement in the matter of expropriating properties. The report reads as follows—

The report also states that as from now the Expropriation Act of 1965 is going to be applicable. This will mean that not only will the market value of the property be paid out, but that any real financial loss or inconvenience caused by the expropriation will be covered as well. Now I should like to know why it is not possible for the same principle to apply in the determination of the basic value. The person who has invested in that property finds himself in the area of another group, and has to move. Why cannot the real financial loss the person actually suffers be calculated in determining the basic value, as well as an amount in respect of the inconvenience he has to suffer as a result of his having to move?

I have said that many delays occur in the implementation of the Group Areas Act. One of the reasons, I think, is quite probably the fact that there is very poor liaison between the hon. the Minister of Community Development and the hon. the Minister of Planning. It would appear to me as though the one does not really like the other. They are very seldom in this House at the same time. This afternoon the hon. the Minister of Planning is not here at all.

Oh yes?

Oh, there he is! He is sitting in another bench now. Be that as it may, there really is very poor liaison between them. I now want to tell you a story, Sir, which almost sounds like a huge joke. It started in Ceres on 24 December 1959. On that day a proclamation was issued which provided a poor friend of mine with a fine Christmas present. On that day he heard that his property, a very fine farm in the Ceres area, had been proclaimed as a group area for future occupation by members of the Coloured Group. It virtually ruined the poor man’s Christmas festivities. You yourself can understand what the position was, Sir.

†Sir, believe me, this position continued for years. I might tell you that the matter was only finally resolved last month, almost 15 years from the date it commenced. This poor friend of mine, when he found that this property had been declared an affected property in terms of the proclamation he received on 24 December 1959, had to wait for a very considerable time before the committee of appraisers come to make their appraisements. When they eventually did so, they put a most ridiculous price on the property, about half its value. He then tried to appeal; but unfortunately, on account of the time factor, he was unable to do so. Subsequently, he found that a shop which he owned on the farm was going from bad to worse. He was selling goods in this farm shop and he could not keep up with what had to be done because of the change in the whole area around him. So he applied to the department for compensation in respect of goodwill for the shop. After a great deal of trouble, this goodwill was paid out. It was a sum of about R4 000. About three or four months after this amount had been paid out, a further proclamation was issued, deproclaiming the area as an area for White occupation. By that time, the whole area had been completely surrounded by members of the Coloured group. The farm was actually an island. There is a river on the one side, and on the other side it was completely surrounded by members of the Coloured group.

You don’t know anything about it.

I know everything about it. I have been on this farm.

Your facts are completely wrong.

My facts are not wrong at all.

Order! The hon. member must not discuss the proclamation of group areas under this Vote.

I abide by your ruling, Mr. Chairman; I shall not do so. The hon. the Minister says that I am wrong. I am just telling him that he is wrong and I am correct. I know the facts very well indeed. Do you know what happened then? A guide plan had to be prepared of this area before it could be redeclared a Coloured area. That took something like five years. As I have said, the whole transaction took almost 15 years. For 15 years this poor friend of mine did not know where he was. He aged terribly in that time. He almost died during that time. It is extraordinary to think that the poor man is still alive! It was only last month that he was eventually able to dispose of this property to the Department of Agricultural Credit and Land Tenure. After a great deal of trouble …

Order! The hon. member cannot discuss that matter under this Vote. This is a matter which falls under the Department of Planning and the Environment.

The whole matter falls into the lap of the Department of Community Development because they are the people who—I was going to say—run like a golden thread through this story, although they are nothing like a golden thread; I would say they run like a horrible hawser through the whole story. They are the people responsible for this terrible delay.

And you have lost the thread.

I want to say to the hon. the Minister that I sincerely hope that there will be no further problems arising like the one I have mentioned. I do sincerely hope that other poor people who are not friends of mine will not suffer the same fate as did my friend at the hands of this hon. Minister.

Mr. Chairman, I am rising to convey my thanks to the Department of Community Development and the Port Elizabeth city council for what they have done in regard to housing over the past five years. I am referring specifically to housing for Whites and Coloureds. Today I cannot help recalling the conditions which prevailed in Port Elizabeth approximately eight years ago. When I made my maiden speech in this house on 24 August 1966, I said the following (Hansard. Vol. 17, col. 1348)—

I then went on to add these few words (col. 1350)—

I recall that when I rose at that time to speak in the interests of my voters, I pleaded for houses. In this connection I have come into conflict with the Port Elizabeth city council and sometimes with the department, too, but today, after eight years, I am reaping the fruits of the plea which I delivered for my voters at that time. Today I can say without hesitation that Port Elizabeth North has the member of Parliament who fights hardest for the voters of Port Elizabeth as a whole. [Interjections.] Now, I can take this opportunity today to say thank you, on behalf of my voters, to the Department of Community Development and to congratulate them on what they have done for Port Elizabeth. But, Sir, I also want to say thank you to the Port Elizabeth city council for the fine spirit of co-operation prevailing between these two bodies. If that co-operation continues, I have no doubt that in the foreseeable future we shall have no housing problems in Port Elizabeth. As far as White housing is concerned at present, I believe we have made up the backlog. Sir, I just want to mention a few figures to you in this regard: As far as White housing is concerned, the department and the city council have built 1 178 houses over the past five years at a cost of R10 146 000. As far as Coloured housing is concerned, 4 406 houses have been built at a cost of R17 238 000. 135 houses have been built for Asians, at a cost of R1 600 000. For all races—Whites, Coloureds and Indians—5 719 houses have been built at a cost of R29 million.

May I ask the hon. member a question?

Sir, I shall come to the hon. member in a moment. It is not necessary for him to ask me a question; I shall reply to it before he has put the question. Sir, I want to quote to you what the hon. member said here the other day; he said—

Sir, I just want to remind the hon. member that when I was fighting for housing in Port Elizabeth, he was as silent as the grave. He could not get a nomination in his constituency. It is thanks only to the comradeship which developed between him and his Cape leader during the war that a seat was secured for him, otherwise he would have been without a seat today. Sir, I challenge the hon. member to come and stand as a candidate in Port Elizabeth North. Do you know, Sir, what we have obtained in Port Elizabeth North? We have obtained the wonderful housing scheme at Sidwell comprising more than 300 dwelling units; at Ferguson there are 50 dwelling units; at Sydenham today we have dwelling units for which Fanie Potgieter fought, and now that hon. member wants to engage me in a fight there. Sir, the voters of Port Elizabeth will stone him, and the day that they stone him and his political funeral takes place, I shall take him a wreath with an inscription which reads: “Where to, Lord? To Thee alone.” Sir, had I the time I would have dealt with the politically two-faced member for Walmer sitting here in this House, but I shall do so at a later occasion.

Order! The hon. member must not use the word “two-faced”; he must withdraw it.

I withdraw it, Sir. Sir, I should now like to raise a matter with the Minister which is of the utmost importance to me, and that is the question of Coloured housing. In my view of the matter, Coloured housing is a national concern. I think the costs of Coloured housing should be borne by the State. All our large municipalities, of which Port Elizabeth is one, have to bear a heavy burden in this regard. I have here a letter which I received from a friend of mine in the city council. He wrote—

I have brought this matter to the attention of the department. This matter has given rise to a dispute in Port Elizabeth. The White taxpayer wants to know, and he is entitled to know, whether we have to pay for the subsidization of Coloured housing, for the greatest concentrations of Coloureds are to be found in Cape Town, Port Elizabeth and East London. Here they say that it is estimated today that the deficit on Coloured housing, which now has to be paid by the taxpayer, amounts to R912 674. It verges on R1 million. This matter is an unfortunate one. The moment it came to my attention, I took it up with the department. The department maintains that the municipality can recover this money, and the municipality maintains that they cannot recover the money; they have to bear the burden, with the result that the White taxpayer, or the urban taxpayer, has to contribute towards the finances of the city council.

Then I come to a next point I should like to put to the hon. the Minister. The hon. the Minister is aware of the fact that there are certain requirements which have to be met to qualify for the occupation of municipal houses or Community Development houses. It depends on one’s salary. We have now seen that the salaries in the private sector and the public sector have risen by between 10% and 15%. [Time expired.]

It seems as if the hon. member for Port Elizabeth North is afraid that the United Party is going to take his seat away from him, but he need not worry because there is no election due in the near future. [Interjections.] I shall not follow the hon. member. I wish to take this opportunity to put to the Minister, and to acquaint the Committee with, certain injustices and hardships which have been imposed upon the Indian community at Page View. These hardships have been imposed as the direct result of the implementation of the Group Areas Act. For the information of those hon. members who do not know the circumstances in Page View, I would briefly like to sketch what that situation is. Page View is a suburb in the heart of Johannesburg, virtually within walking distance of the middle of town, where approximately 1 000 Indian families reside and carry on their businesses. This community has been living in that area for generations. In fact, some people say that they have been there since the days of Kruger and for decades they have in fact owned their own properties in this area. The way in which the majority of these Indians own these properties is by way of leasehold to the municipality of Johannesburg, to whom they pay a nominal rental for these leases. Until the department froze transactions in this area some years ago, leaseholds were in fact bought and sold as if they were freeholds. In fact, it was permitted to convert a leasehold into freehold by paying a nominal sum. If my memory serves me correctly, I think that nominal sum was about £100. Unfortunately very few people actually availed themselves of the opportunity to convert these leaseholds into freeholds, and the reason they did not do that was because there was not any real advantage in having a freehold over a leasehold. Nobody at that stage ever envisaged that the Government would one day come along and wish to dispossess these people of their houses and businesses. When a proclamation was in fact made and these people became disqualified people in terms of the Group Areas Act, they found themselves in the position where not only were they deprived of their houses and their businesses, but they found they were not in a position in fact to get compensation from the department for their land; they were only in a position to get compensation for the buildings on the land. The situation vis-à-vis the land was that the municipality, as the freeholder, got compensation for the land. But fortunately the municipality of Johannesburg realized and accepted the fact that the true owners of the land were in fact the people who owned the leasehold on this land, and they were determined not to make any profit out of the misfortunes of these people. The second shock that came to these people was the fact that they were to be rehoused in Lenasia, which was a new area some 25 miles from the centre of Johannesburg, but as the proclamation and the new area where they were to be housed do not fall under this Minister, I will talk about this on some other occasion. The problem about the compensation was that although the municipality had agreed that whatever they got from the Department of Community Development they would pass on to these leaseholders, these negotiations have been continuing from 1969 to this day and at this moment this matter has not been settled, as I understand it, to the satisfaction of the department, the municipality and the residents of Page View. I know for a fact that the residents have not as yet been compensated for the land.

The situation is that these people now had to move to Lenasia, but there were also problems in this regard. The department had purchased this dolomitic ground and because of the nature of the ground extensive replanning had to be done. When these people came along to acquire stands in Lenasia, there were no stands available for them. The situation is that these people are still living in Page View, but they cannot improve or repair their properties there because, if they do that, there is no way in which they can get any refund. On the other hand they cannot move to Lenasia because there are no stands available at the moment.

When we consider the actual compensation which these people are going to get for their existing stands in Page View, we find that whatever eventual amount is decided upon by the department and the municipality, it will be far less than the actual value of that ground today. Page View is adjacent to Fordsburg where prices have escalated rapidly over the past few years. There is no doubt in my mind that when these people eventually get their money and the department takes over this ground, the department will make a fantastic profit out of the misfortune of these people, because the land will be worth very much more than what they are going to pay for it. I would even say that if they put the property to its best utilization, their profit could be 1 000% or more. Personally I think it is a grave injustice to deprive people of their homes and businesses in the first place, but then to make a potential enormous profit out of this transaction, would in my mind be callous in the extreme. I should like to ask the hon. the Minister whether he feels it is right in these days when wealthy land speculators and land barons make millions of rand at the expense of the taxpayer in, say, Saldanha and Newcastle—not that it is illegitimate; I think the profits they make are perfectly legitimate—that the State should in turn recover these millions of rand via the hon. the Minister’s department by the forced alienation from an under-privileged and powerless section of our community of their homes and businesses. I do not think that is right. I do not think that the Government really wants to carry out business in this way. I cannot believe it does.

Of course it does.

It surely does not want to make it possible for one section of our community, the privileged Whites, to speculate and make these enormous profits at the taxpayers’ expense by depriving another section of the population, because they do not happen to be White and are therefore powerless, of their very homes and businesses and in addition to profiteer at their misfortune. I think that if the department were to take this attitude, it would be a scandal. I think it is the duty of the hon. the Minister and this House to see that the laws of our country are changed to make certain that a situation like this is not possible.

This, unfortunately, is not the end of the story. The area to which these unfortunate people must move is Lenasia and Lenasia itself is a bit of disaster. Apart from being 25 miles out of Johannesburg, it is on dolomite which makes it absolutely undesirable for residential purposes. The facilities are lacking, the transport to town is difficult and expensive and there are, in fact, no stands available to purchase at the present moment. However, when these stands eventually do come on the market and if people can acquire them, what will their price be? The hon. the Minister says that he is not in a position at the present moment to tell us, but he does tell us that the price will be worked out taking into account the cost of the land, the cost of the provision of services and the capitalized interest on the original purchase price. We have some idea of what these costs will be. In 1966 the prices there ranged between R500 and R800 per stand. In 1972 the prices had escalated to between R2 188 and R4 993 per stand. I think it is safe to say that if one takes into account the fact that as the result of the dolomite, large areas of land purchased cannot be used and the tremendous escalation we have had in the prices of services whilst they were waiting for the township to be proclaimed, one could well expect that the new stands would come on the market at prices ranging from R3 000 to R6 000 per stand. I am convinced that if the hon. the Minister were a private township developer he would have had a tremendous white elephant on his hands in Lenasia. If it were not for the fact that he could force these people who have nowhere else to go, to buy stands there, he would have suffered an enormous loss on Lenasia. If he had to compete with other township developers in trying to sell those stands to Whites, he would lose millions of rands on that development. He has this monopoly however and if any Indian person wants a stand he has nowhere else to go but to Lenasia. He has to buy a stand there and when he buys a stand, he saves the hon. the Minister’s department because he can now recoup the losses on this, what I want to call, disastrous undertaking.

Mr. Chairman, the hon. member for Randburg will excuse me if I do not respond to his speech since the hon. the Minister will probably reply to all his problems.

I should like to take this opportunity of thanking the hon. the Minister for the special services he rendered during the recent floods in the valley of both the Groot Fish and Small Fish Rivers. I want to thank the hon. the Minister for the housing that was provided as well as the funds that were made available to people who were stricken by the floods and were virtually homeless. We want to express our sincere gratitude to the department for the steps it took on that occasion, steps which often involved great sacrifices. One could not help gaining the impression that one was dealing here with a department to which normal working hours did not matter as long as it was able to render a service to the people. I also want to convey my gratitude to the hon. the Minister for the special housing projects undertaken in my constituency, at Algoa Park. It is with real pride that one thinks of the facilities that have been made available to the low income group in particular among our people. Attractive little houses and flats were erected in that area. I also want to express my gratitude for the 3% reduction in the rental in respect of a particular income group. This reduction will apply for the first five years, and it will undoubtedly contribute towards alleviating the financial burden of many of the residents there.

I also want to convey my congratulations to the new Secretary for Community Development. I am doing this for the particular reason that we are dealing here with a person with many years of experience in the social sphere. I may just mention that he was associated with various inquiries undertaken in respect of housing and the resettlement of our people. I must also mention the fact that he acts as chairman of The Central Flood Disaster Fund established to render assistance to those who found themselves in great distress on account of the recent floods. It is estimated that the Fund, from which those people will receive assistance, already amounts to just over R2 million.

I should like to come back to what the hon. member for Rondebosch said in this House yesterday. He said that services should be provided to the residents of squatter camps. I am inclined to agree with him in this regard at first, but after he had finished his speech, I saw that Granny congratulated him. As a result of that I changed my mind. I want to tell the hon. member for Rondebosch that he should not take all that much notice of it, because Granny congratulates everyone of the “boys”. She even thanks the hon. member, a former minister of religion, sitting behind the hon. member for Rondebosch whenever he makes a speech, which is a great compliment to that hon. member. I like the hon. member for Rondebosch. He is a person with great talents, but I nevertheless want to advise him to try and get out of that political rut. After all, he does not belong to that side of the House; he really belongs to this side. If he comes over to this side of the House, he will be able to share with us the deep satisfaction of watching the spectacle on the other side of the House, i.e. a group of Young Turks who are being kept on the run by a little mouse in skins. He will be able to enjoy with us the spectacle on that side of the House.

In the report of the civil engineers of the Republic of South Africa, a picture of the escalating population growth in the world is presented to us. In that report mention is made of the tempo of the population growth. Since pre-historic times up to the Middle Ages it was 0,1%, in the 18th century 0,3%, during the middle of the 19th century, 0,16%, but we have a population growth of 2,1% at the moment. According to this report I mentioned a moment ago, it is estimated that 90% of the Whites in the Republic and 70% of the non-Whites will be urbanized by the year 2000. In the same report mention is made of the fact that resources providing material for the building trade are not only becoming scarcer but that building material will become increasingly expensive over the years and that, on account of the more expensive building material, building construction will become almost impossibly expensive.

The hon. member for Musgrave yesterday quoted from the report of the Economic Advisory Council of Stellenbosch. According to the report this board estimated that building costs had increased by 25% last year. What the hon. member said, was that financial contributions should be made on the part of the State and, in particular, on the part of the department to keep the building costs low. I want to ask whether we should not rather pay attention to the results we had from the National Building Research Institute on account of research work undertaken in the sphere of building material. The results of such research work indicate that it is possible to make use of less conservative methods as far as the utilization of building material is concerned. In regard to the results of research undertaken by this Institute I want to ask whether we could not consider the possibility of using cheaper, but also more durable, building material in our building projects. I may just mention here that the Institute liaises with approximately 24 organizations at international level as far as research work into building methods is concerned.

There is a tendency, also in Algoa Park, in my constituency, to build more and more flats or maisonettes. I have found that some of these flats remain vacant. I want to ask whether it would not be possible to give more attention to the detached small-sized house on a small piece of ground where children could play. There is one final point I want to mention. Could the hon. the Minister and his department not consider an old-age home also in Algoa Park, where there are still some open spaces available which our elderly people so often need? Is it not possible to give attention to this matter and to undertake some planning in this regard?

Mr. Chairman, I do not want to comment on what the hon. member for Somerset East has said except to thank him for the promotion from “aunty” to “ouma”. It is the truth and I am perfectly happy to accept that. Instead I want to use the short time at my disposal to raise a matter which is of importance to my constituency and to many other urban constituencies n South Africa. I want to ask the hon. the Minister to exercise special care before he uses the discretionary right which he has under the Rents Act to exempt blocks of flats from control under the Rents Act. I have discussed this matter very briefly with the hon. the Minister and I now want to raise it in more detail, with specific reference to what is going on in my own constituency, because I have had a number of complaints and I am au fait with the situation there. However, I know that what I am going to say applies also to Sea Point and other urban constituencies. I have no doubt that the hon. members of those constituencies will agree with what I am about to say.

The point is that all over the country, and as I say more particularly in my constituency, flat-dwellers are being subjected to what I can only call a campaign of attrition and of intimidation, more particularly by a property company—and I am going to name it in this House because it has already been named in the public Press. It is a company known as the South African Property Portfolio Managers (Pty.) Ltd, and its chairman is a gentleman named Mr. B. Mouton. The company is operating everywhere; it is operating in Durban, Cape Town, in fact, on a nation-wide scale. I want to describe very briefly the modus operandi of this company, particularly in Killarney which is the major flat area in the Houghton constituency.

As I have said, I have had many complaints recently. Contrary to the widely held view that only affluent people live in this area, I want to point out that there are many elderly retired people and widows living in this area, people who have to live on a fixed income and who are being very hard hit by the tide of inflation. Although so far this company has managed to obtain the decontrol of only one block of flats in this area, as the hon. the Minister told me yesterday, one of the four blocks it already owns, the company is engaged, as I say, in a campaign of harassment of tenants living in these controlled blocks with a view either to coercing them into buying their flats at highly inflated prices or with a view to getting them to move out so that those flats may be sold to other people. Mr. Mouton has boasted in the Press that he has already made a sum of R22 million over the last four years, which is not bad by anybody’s standard. I have no objection to his making a profit, as long as it is a reasonable profit and the methods employed are not dubious methods. This is how he operates.

Having bought controlled blocks, he sends out letters to the tenants of those blocks, informing them that they are statutory tenants under the Rents Act, which they already know, but then adding that should the block be decontrolled, they will be given a month’s notice to vacate their flats. Already the threat is inherent that the building is going to be decontrolled. Next a salesman of this property company calls on the tenants and tells them that an application for decontrol has already been lodged, and according to the hon. the Minister’s reply to me yesterday, this is simply not true. No such applications have been made for the three remaining blocks and I am now specifically talking about them. The salesman hints that the decontrol applications will most certainly be favourably received and then suggests that the tenants buy the flats on the company’s terms. The terms appear to be one-third cash and the balance over five years with 14% interest on the balance and various maintenance charges.

I want to give one example of what this in fact means to the tenants in these controlled flats. A tenant in one of the controlled flats told me that he is presently paying a total rent of R192 per month, including garage space, servant’s room, etc. He was asked to pay R37 500 for the flat, or less 5% if he paid the total amount in cash; or R12 500 in cash and the rest over five years at 14%. This works out, including service levies, at R638 per month, which is, of course, well beyond the means of a man living in a fairly comfortable flat, but not what I would call a super luxury flat, for which he was paying R192. Once the offer to buy is rejected, the campaign of harassment begins. The tenant is badgered quite mercilessly to show the flat to prospective buyers; which is of course completely illegal, because the flat is not in fact vacated. It is under control. People are pestered in the foyer of the building, where a selling table is set up. There are incessant phone calls, and in some cases, tenants were told that certain amenities were about to be withdrawn, such as garage spaces, servants’ rooms, etc.

In one specific case, the delivery men coming to effect deliveries at the block were stopped by a salesman of the company and told that they were not allowed to use the lift, even though it was labelled “service lift”. This happens to be a building of five storeys. Of course, the man refused to deliver this heavy package upstairs. No doubt, tenants are now feeling the result of this as well. Tenants who tried to hold a meeting in this block of flats to complain about the whole situation and see what could be done about it, were phoned by the caretaker, who said she had been instructed by the owners to say that the meeting was illegal and that the police would be called in to break it up. Of course, this was a lot of nonsense. A person impersonating the police also phoned this particular flat-dweller and said that the meeting was illegal, and that the police would arrive on the scene if they continued to hold the meeting. These tenants, who did not want trouble and appeared to be unaware of their rights, transferred the meeting to a hotel. While the meeting was in progress, another phone call came through. This time, one of the men, who was attending the meeting, was called away and he was told that his flat in Killarney had been broken into, and that someone was wrecking the furniture. Well, he rushed home to find, of course, that it was a hoax. It was part of the whole campaign of intimidation.

Sir, I might say that I have sworn statements which bear out everything I am saying here. There is apparently no trick which is too low for the people who are determined to get tenants out of controlled flats if they do not succeed in doing so in other ways. I am aware that section 21 of the Rents Act makes all these manoeuvres an offence. I am aware that the amending Bill, which I hope we will discuss later, is going to increase the penalties on conviction in this respect. However, I might say that the property company concerned has already been prosecuted on several occasions in different cities, has been acquitted on some charges and has been found guilty on others.

There was one test case. Summonses were issued at a block of flats in Sea Point, Clarenceville, to 21 tenants, telling them they were going to lose their parking-spaces, which in Sea Point is the kiss of death, because there is nowhere to park on the streets at all. One tenant took the matter up as a test case, and he won his case. I believe there are several other complaints presently with the Attorney-General. However, the company continues undeterred. The spirit of the Rents Act, I maintain, is being violated. I would also like to say that I do not believe that the intention behind the Sectional Titles Act was that vast profits should be made at the expense of existing tenants in blocks of flats, whether those blocks be controlled or uncontrolled blocks. I believe that some protection should be provided for tenants of all these flats, if only to allow them one year’s tenancy after a change of ownership.

I want to ask the hon. the Minister to instruct the Rents Board to investigate the practices of the S.A. Property Portfolio Managers (Pty.) Ltd. I think that the rent board operating in every city should take statements from everyone who was ever a tenant in the blocks acquired by this company, should investigate the history of what has happened and that the result of this investigation should be reported to the hon. the Minister. I am sure that it will uncover a sort of Rachman-like operation of considerable magnitude in South Africa. It cannot just be coincidence that so many people have had to get out of their flats. I urgently want an assurance from the hon. the Minister that no block of flats acquired by this particular company will be decontrolled pending the outcome of the Rent Board’s investigation into this company’s machinations. I think that some security should be provided to the tenants of these blocks of flats. [Time expired.]

Mr. chairman, the hon. member for Houghton devoted her speech to matters relating to the Rents Act affecting her constituency, and made special representations to the hon. the Minister. For that reason I do not think there is any need for me to respond to what she said.

I should like to draw attention to what is, to my mind, the most acute housing problem in South Africa, i.e. the question of Coloured housing. In the first place we have to ask ourselves: What are the needs today as far as Coloured housing is concerned? We notice that in the divisional council area of Cape Town and of Stellenbosch alone there are 108 500 squatters, representing 21 500 families, and 21 500 residential units. In addition, there is a further need for 40 700 units in the Republic of South Africa, as far as Coloured housing is concerned. This gives us a total of 62 400 residential units, the building costs of which are estimated at an amount of R218 million. This is a colossal problem. Not only is this a colossal problem, because we are dealing with a further aspect concerning this problem. We are dealing here with a tremendous and almost insuperable growing need for additional housing. We have the problem that for every 10 000 houses which are erected—this is just by way of an example—approximately 5 000 or even more are absorbed on account of the natural growth of the Coloured population. We know that we are dealing here with a population group which probably has the highest percentage growth in the world, i.e. 3,5%. This alone gives us more than 50 000 additional people per year, and it creates a need for approximately 5 000 additional residential units per year. In addition, we also have to cope with the problem of over-crowding, with a tremendous inflow to our cities. It goes without saying that we can expect that a rapidly developing and dynamic young country showing such growth in the economic and industrial spheres will, after all, afford employment opportunities which will draw these people to the cities. They find the lights attractive; there are other attractive facilities such as schools, hospitalization, and so on. In their own ranks certain Coloured leaders feel the need to uplift their own people. This is a commendable attitude. This creates the feeling among the Coloured people that they are not prepared to share one residential unit with three or four other families. They want to see that one residential unit is made available for only one family. This is a problem which is placed and cast on to the shoulders of the Government, and which this Government has to solve. Sir, what government is able to meet such an enormous increasing need; what government is able to wipe out on the turn a backlog of more than 60 000 houses at a total cost of R218 million? For that reason, Sir, it is a good thing that one should pause a little and consider what has been achieved by this Government in regard to this tremendous problem of Coloured housing. I want to start with 1948 and consider the 26½ years since then. Who is there on the other side of the House who would be prepared to say today that it is not a remarkable achievement for the Government to have succeeded in making available no less than 115 000 residential units during this period of 26½ years, when one considers the financial and other circumstances? Sir, this figure is six times more than what was achieved for the Coloured people by that side of the House before 1948, over a period of more than 28 years. Until recently hon. members on that side of the House used to say that we were doing nothing in regard to Coloured housing. I think the hon. the Minister has convinced this Committee today of the progress that has been made in this connection, and it is gratifying that the attitude that side of the House adopts today is quite different to what it was last year and in previous years. Today they are almost prepared to co-operate with us, and they are less critical of the present situation as far as housing is concerned. Sir, I think the endeavours of the Department are commendable when one considers the number of residential units that have been provided. Two years ago almost 10 000 residential units were made available, and as the hon. member for Musgrave was informed yesterday in reply to a question in this House, 12 000 residential units were made available in 1973. This is an extraordinary achievement, but in addition to this we have the splendid statement made by the hon. the Prime Minister earlier this session as well as the statement made by the hon. the Minister in this House today to the effect that no less than 50 000 additional residential units are going to be made available for Coloured occupation during the following five to six years. A record amount of R58 million is added to the capital of the National Housing Fund this year; we have a record loan to the Community Development Fund, i.e. R31 million—larger amounts than have ever before been made available to these funds. We were also able to have the splendid co-operation of the two major local authorities here in the Cape Peninsula during the past few years, i.e. the Cape Divisional Council and the Cape Town Municipality. The Cape Divisional Council, on account of the development and rehabilitation and replanning it undertakes at Elsies River, will make 15 000 residential units available there ultimately. We also find that it has a crash programme, of which I have just been informed, in terms of which they want to make 3 000 residential units available per year. Sir, to this I also add the Cape Town City Council which, in addition to a few thousand residential units which are being planned for this year and next year, intends building no fewer than 5 000 residential units per year at Mitchell’s Plain as from 1976. This is a commendable attempt when we consider Mitchell’s Plain with a potential of 40 000 residential units. Sir, we can go even further; in this report we notice that it is stated by the Secretary—

We learned from the hon. the Minister today that by 1979, i.e. in less than five years, the backlog is expected to be reduced to 24 000. Only recently we learned that more than twice the number of housing units provided for White occupation were provided for Coloured occupation during the past few decades. Sir, who can question the fact that we are engaged here on a positive constructive policy which offers a solution for this problem? I believe that with the standard of housing this Government is making available, even on a sub-economic basis at sub-economic rates of interest, it is providing particularly pleasant residential areas in which the inhabitants are satisfied and content, and for that reason I regret the criticism that came from hon. members on that side of the House, including the hon. member for Houghton, to the effect that slum conditions and ghettoes would ultimately be created in these new residential areas.

Sir, I find it most regrettable that this negative attitude is proclaimed in the outside world in order to besmirch South Africa. What is the position? We find that temporary transit camps are being established in the area of the Cape Divisional Council. This is something of an inferior standard compared with sub-economic housing. This is the type of housing in respect of which the hon. member for Green Point said in this House yesterday he did not believe the inhabitants of such housing schemes were too happy with. I have here the report of the Cape Divisional Council up to 31 August 1974. Let me just quote to you, Sir, what the chairman of the Divisional Council has to say as far as these transit camps are concerned. On page 29 I read the following—(translation)—

This is even more inferior than sub-economic housing (translation)—

Sir, I think I have every right to say that this Government appreciates its primary responsibility to provide for this essential need. This Government has done more than any other Government in this country to solve this problem in a proper way. This Government at present appreciates more than ever before the nature and scope of this problem, and for that reason the Government is in even greater earnest to tackle and solve this problem with greater singleness of purpose, determination and conviction. For that reason we are in the process of doing just this. We have already had evidence of the vigorous and energetic steps taken by the hon. the Minister and his department; with the positive, honest and willing co-operation of the Opposition we shall make even more rapid progress.

I want to say immediately to the hon. member for Durbanville that, as we have said before in this debate, we are appreciative of what is being done and that we will contribute as best we can with our suggestions and advice, whether it is acceptable or not, to improve the position; because if there is one aspect of relations in South Africa, particularly between the Coloureds and the Whites, which is important, it is the question of adequate housing, which is basic to their upliftment and their playing a full part in the future life of this country. I believe it is the responsibility of both sides of the House to look at that task and to contribute as best we can towards solving it, because it is a formidable task. At the same time I want the hon. member to realize that when we feel there are aspects of Government handling of the matter, through its Department of Community Development, which can be improved upon, we must not immediately be accused of being unpatriotic and that we “beswadder die naam van Suid-Afrika” if we do criticize.

Sir, I want to criticize this afternoon very strongly indeed in regard to the manner in which rents control is administered in South Africa. This matter has been raised year after year. We raised it with the hon. the Minister’s predecessor and when the hon. the Minister took over last year, I spoke in this House on the question of what was happening under rent control. The Johannes Commission was appointed in 1971 and reported in 1972, and last year I described what the Minister was doing. And he is doing it again today; he is holding that report to his chest like a poker player. Why can we not see it? Because somebody might be offended if what he said before a commission is made public. Sir, it is not an answer.

Then I want to say that one of the other matters I thought the hon. the Minister might have dealt with—I did not expect a reply from him last year when I raised the matter—is the question of the enormous cost of the erection of new flats to provide housing, which leads to the rentals of the type which are now being asked. I looked at a flat the other day in Sea Point, a five-roomed flat on the seafront, with a servant’s room and garage, which rents at R490 a month. This type of rental is ascribed to high building costs. Last year I appealed to the Minister to go into the question of allowing a depreciation allowance deductible for tax purposes in so far as flat construction costs were concerned. It is done in regard to the construction of five-star hotels, which has resulted in a high standard of hotels being built in this country. We can do something about encouraging the construction of flat-dwellings if the flat-owner is prepared to adjust his rentals and he is allowed this 5% depreciation allowance, which then starts the cash flow.

That brings us to another matter which is happening at the present moment. When this Bill was amended in 1966 to adjust the question of bond interest, it was done on a basis which the whole country and, I believe, the House understood would be applied, i.e. that the owner of a block of flats, was to get a mortgage to help finance the acquisition or construction of that building. What is happening now? I can quote the hon. the Minister an instance where a reducible bond which had a fixed interest with a building society and which was initially issued at 7%, with a permissive increase of 1% to 8%, was cancelled because it was more profitable to the owner to take out a new bond at 10% for the maximum amount he possibly could. The amount which he got by means of the new bond was more than the amount of the original building society bond. The owner was not committed to repay the capital. His interest is paid by the tenants and he sits with capital in his hands, the surplus over and above the building society bond, which he can invest wherever he likes. He can get at least 12% on that money, for which the tenants are paying. These matters are going on under the administration of the Rent Board. The amendments which we had in 1964, 1966, 1970 and 1971, resulted in inflation rates being passed on to the tenants. When the 1966 amendment was introduced no less an authority than Rosenow and Diemont said in their book—

This is the situation we have at the present moment. I agree with what has been said by the hon. member for Sea Point. The figure which has been given as a result of a survey shows a 38% increase. I have a pensioner who, under the dispensation in the Budget this year, received an additional R12 per month in pension. At the same time that he read this in the newspaper he received a notice from the Rent Board that his rent had been increased by R11 per month. That is what is happening at the present time. I believe it is happening because the Rents Act is not being applied as it should be. I can see no earthly reason why the owner who is letting his block of flats should not receive a reasonable return on his money, but on the present basis such an owner receives the full cost of borrowing money on the property plus what he can borrow on the appreciated value of that property. In other words, the tenant is paying on money which is borrowed not only on the original value of the investment but money which becomes available because of the appreciation of the value of the property. These things are happening and I believe it is urgent that this question should be looked at.

There are also other matters as regards the Rent Board. I know that we have decided in this House that retrospective orders should be limited to six months’ effectiveness; in other words, it is permitted that a tenant can be asked to pay an increase in his rent covering a period of six months. These are intolerable burdens imposed on the people under present circumstances. The hearings of cases are delayed and delayed by various rent boards. When it comes to the aspect of harassing tenants, I endorse everything that was said by the hon. member for Houghton when she told us what was happening to certain people. Who is being penalized? It is the genuine, honest landlord, and there are many of them who look after their properties and who do not try any stunts. They find themselves being left in the cold because those who try the stunts get away so often with increased rentals. The honest landlord then says “I just have to join in this game as well if that is how I am to make my investment worth while.” That is what is happening. Certain landlords make repeated applications but there is no penalty on such a course of action. I still want to hear of a case where a rent board has ordered a landlord to pay the costs involved by the tenants in opposing this type of application. I want to conclude with two points. I also want to say that I am particularly concerned about the decontrol of flats. While I quoted the rental which was being charged for the new block I mentioned, I can also tell the hon. the Minister that in one of the blocks which he saw fit to decontrol, the rental was trebled within a period of a month’s notice to the tenants. The tenants were told that the block had been decontrolled and as a result the rentals went up. That has happened and it will happen again. If it becomes necessary—and the hon. the Minister does exercise the power—I want to ask him to defer the effect of the decontrol so that the tenants can have a lengthy period of notice in order to find alternative accommodation. A period of six months or something of that nature should be given so that they have a reasonable opportunity of finding alternative accommodation.

The other point I want to raise is one which I raised several years ago. I wonder whether the department should not investigate the possibility of applying a type of means test to tenants who may occupy certain controlled flats. We must either boost the pensions of State employees or the pensions of the old-age pensioners so that they can find flats on a competitive market or we must see to it that some form of priority is given to these people.

Mr. Chairman, all we heard was the same old chorus we usually hear from the Opposition side. Only one refrain was missing, and that was the complaint that local authorities are losing rentals because the department acquires properties in the process of slum clearance and does not pay rental on buildings on which rental would otherwise have been collected. For the rest, we merely heard the same old story again. The hon. member for Randburg said that the department was enriching itself at the expense of the people, specifically the disqualified. He also said that the big land owner, specifically the Department of Community Development, was making undue profits. I want to say to hon. members that the Opposition has problems. The problem is that they have never been in favour of group areas, and that they do not like them. Consequently they do not like people having to be resettled from certain affected areas to more suitable areas. Their second problem is that if we go back in history and consider the time when they were governing, we will recall how squatters’ camps, slum areas, unhygienic conditions, and so on, existed and developed under their Government. The reason why they are criticizing the department is because they want to hide behind that criticism.

I, on the other hand, have very great appreciation for what the Department of Community Development has done, as well as for the great interest which is being shown by the hon. the Minister. Recently, for example, I went to the department with a complaint. I went to complain about an unsightly structure which had been erected next to a main road. The department immediately made it its business to pull down the unsightly structure. When the department undertakes slum clearance, it requires a very great expenditure. The cost of land is not the only costs involved. There are other costs as well, such as replanning costs, for example. Then there are the costs in regard to the provision of services and all the costs which are associated with the conversion of slums and the application of urban renewal. It frequently happens, too, that the department has to buy out certain adjoining properties unnecessarily. By way of advertisement in the public Press the land is again sold by the department to the public as if it were in the market. So I can continue by referring to the procedure which is adopted by the department in the clearance of slums and in the placing of people in better circumstances.

This brings me to a local matter. I find it necessary to convey my thanks once again this afternoon to the department for the mammoth task which it and the city council of Pretoria have accomplished in regard to the resettlement of the Bantu of Lady Selborne. We want to express our gratitude for the slum clearance which has taken place there. It is difficult to describe the slum conditions there to cause people to realize what things really looked like before the department stepped in there. It was really a challenge confronting the department. Now that the matter has been disposed of, I want to tell you that not only are the Whites grateful that the other race groups have been removed, and that area declared White and might perhaps now be redeveloped into one of the most attractive suburbs, but also the Bantu who were taken from the slum conditions and slum areas of Lady Selborne and resettled, are happily accommodated today in far better conditions. The R6,5 million spent on the re-settlement at Lady Selborne was a sensible investment for the future.

Once again I have one request I want to make to the hon. the Minister. I am doing this in the realization that, when urban renewal is commenced, one is confronted by a host of problems, particularly in the modern times in which we are living, times which make new demands. I also appreciate that there has to be co-ordination between the various departments and between the various levels of government. In addition, I also realize that the individuality of people comes into the picture when planning is being considered, and that there was a delay in the replanning of Lady Selborne owing to the fact that Lady Selborne was situated in such a way that freeways which had been planned in the meantime, run through the area and that road systems, etc., have to be taken into consideration in the planning of that area. My request is that the department should once again liaise with the city council of Pretoria now, to whom some of the powers of the department have been delegated in order to bring this matter as quickly as possible to the point where we can begin to consider offering stands for sale and developing them for our middle income groups. I am not all that concerned about the sub-economic or the economic groups; I am concerned in particular about our middle income groups. Those people feel that they want to care for their families themselves, and want to acquire their own houses. We are faced with problems here, especially since there has been an increase in costs and the costs continue to display an upward tendency. For that reason my request is that we dispose of this matter as quickly as possible so that we will acquire and will be able to utilize the housing we need so desperately, and will also be able to utilize the major investment of R6,5 million which was made available with the clearance of Lady Selborne. In the meantime that area, which lends itself to exceptionally fine planning, is the rubbish dump of Pretoria. That area is at present being used by everyone in Pretoria. When they do not know what to do with their rubbish, it is dumped in Lady Selborne. A vast amount will be required to clear and remove this rubbish again.

Mr. Chairman, if one forgets about one or two remarks he made about the United Party, the hon. member for Hercules made quite a positive speech. However, I leave it at that. I want to deal with what was said earlier today by the hon. the Minister in regard to private entrepreneurs. He said the plea made by the hon. member for Musgrave was not acceptable, because private entrepreneurs are, after all said and done, only bent on profit. I am not going to discuss the provision of housing. I am going to discuss urban development and urban renewal. I do believe that private entrepreneurs can do this work better than the department, and I also believe that this department has been competing for too long with private entrepreneurs in an unjust way. This is definitely the case in Durban Central, the constituency I represent. There is no doubt that if a survey were to be made to determine which company owned most of the premises and properties for development, it would be the Department of Community Development. To me this is an alarming state of affairs. When one considers the activities of the department, and applies those activities as norms in my constituency, one can come to only one conclusion, i.e. that the Government is rapidly moving in the direction of socialism. Perhaps there is no fault to be found with the reasons as to why the department had to be involved in urban renewal originally. Now I can say honestly that the opposite is true. Instead of promoting development in that constituency, what the department is doing now, is to impede development. I want to object to this as strongly as I possibly can. The department was active in various areas, and thereby hampered private development. The hon. member for Hercules also said that, strangely enough, we have not made any mention of the money the municipalities are losing. In one area in the Durban Central constituency, in Block AK, 162 properties were expropriated by the Department of the hon. the Minister during the past five or six years. The loss in municipal rates and taxes, without taking into consideration any increases, amounted to more than R¼ million in that areas.

What about the profit after the development?

Surely the municipality could have used that for development. The hon. the Minister referred to the profit motive. In reply to questions earlier this year, the hon. the Minister said that one area in Block AK had been sold. This was a consolidated property consisting of a few other small properties. The cost to the department was R175 662, and it was sold at R235 000, i.e. a capital profit of R60 000, or 34%. Another area was sold at a profit of R23 000, or 12%. The average profit in this area, which I have been watching for the past few years, is 23%. If one bears in mind that the capital investment, on account of the expropriation by the Minister, amounts to more than R5 million in that area, one will appreciate that on the basis of an average profit of 20% on capital investments, the department of the Minister is able to make a profit of more than R1 million, and this is only in one small area in which they are active. It has nothing to do with housing here. The story of Block AK is well known. When the area was frozen and expropriated originally, some private entrepreneurs were prepared to develop the area. But, no, the department had to compete with them, and do so in an unjust manner. One could perhaps still have said: “Very well, there is Block AK; this is one part of your constituency; you have always had to deal with problems when the people approached you and raised objections to it”. And again, in the month of August, I had to learn that a further 35 properties were being expropriated in Block C, in Stamford Hill. Today I want to know from the hon. the Minister: What were the motives for the expropriation of that area? After all, we have known the recipe followed by the department for many years now; at first the property is frozen for a long period; later the department interferes and says: “But, look, this area has been frozen for such a long time; we now want to develop the area under the guise of urban renewal”. What I am objecting to today, is the fact that, when the Minister and his department start doing this, they are diametrically opposed to private entrepreneurs. Those areas are not going to be used for housing purposes. This has nothing to do with housing. I have proof of one case that an owner in Block G who owns two properties has been trying for the past 18 months to negotiate with another owner and with the department with a view to developing that area. He wants to expand and consolidate his own property. He asked whether the department would not surrender the option, one could almost say, it had on the area. Sir, instead of allowing this, the department expropriated the property of the person who was prepared to develop the property, as well as that he was prepared to develop, together with the properties adjoining his. I now want to ask the hon. the Minister to reconsider the decision in cases such as these, in cases where people have business undertakings. Such a person might have been there for years. His property is situated there. His clientele is, say, the inhabitants of Stamford Hill. What has to happen now when the Minister says the area has to be expropriated? Perhaps he is supposed to move to another residential area and there to open the same kind of business undertaking he has been running here for years. What is the attitude of the hon. the Minister even at this late stage? I want to ask him that people who own land in such an area and who have plans for development, be allowed to buy such properties instead of these properties first going to the department by means of expropriation. With regard to this whole question of expropriation in this area, I also want to ask the Minister that, where certain people are prepared to sell after their land has been expropriated, the matter should be brought to finality as soon as possible. One of the major problems I experience, is the long, protracted process involved in matters of this kind. The way in which the department interferes with this kind of development really does not help the original owner. The original owner, particularly if he owns a business undertaking, usually loses out in the process. By the time the new owner is able to buy the land and start developing, it is not cheap any longer. Then he buys after the Minister and the department have made a profit. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, I do not think the hon. member for Durban Central will expect me to react to what he said. All the hon. member did was to repeat an argument which the former hon. member for Port Natal—who is now in the Other Place—stated here year after year and which caused him to find himself in the Other Place. I am afraid that if the hon. member for Durban Central continues in that vein, he may also end up in Another Place.

The department is constantly being charged with making unjustifiable profits. It is also said that they hold back properties and therefore deprive municipalities of their rates, etc. The fact remains, however, that when this department through its activities ultimately expropriates that property, that property, originally assessed at, say, R10 million, is worth so much more when it becomes rateable again. It is worth four or five times as much because slums have in the meantime been cleared. That is the crux of the whole matter which the hon. member fails to see.

I think we have had a peaceful debate because the hon. member for Musgrave discussed this matter in a quite responsible way, unlike the former member for Port Natal who was imitated here by the hon. member for Durban Central.

The hon. member for Rondebosch discussed the squatters’ problem yesterday. In his search for solutions to it he said the following—

After the Minister had replied to him in regard to this matter, the hon. member for Sea Point came here this afternoon and said that over the years this Government had, through its policy, placed stumbling-blocks in the way of the head of a family who was seeking proper accommodation. The hon. the Minister has already dealt with that effectively, as I said, but it is high time this story is scotched, this story that people who are resettled in terms of the Group Areas Act are in all cases uprooted from good homes and dislocated.

He did not say that.

To test this story against the truth, we need only consider Cape Town. Here we probably have one of the largest resettlement areas for Coloureds. The resettlement of Coloureds from decent dwellings in the urban area of Cape Town at this stage represents only 8,5% of all the persons resettled. In other words, 91,5% of those Coloureds were resettled from slums. In the Cape rural areas only 3% of them came from decent dwellings, as against 97% who were resettled from slums.

The hon. member for Port Elizabeth North demonstrated to us this afternoon what a large Coloured area exists in Port Elizabeth. I therefore want to take hon. members there. Do they know that in the urban area of Port Elizabeth only 3% of the Coloureds who were resettled came from decent dwellings, and that 97% of them were resettled from slums? In the Port Elizabeth rural area only 0,5% were resettled from decent dwellings, as against 95,5% resettled from slums. So much for this story which is repeatedly told of the callous resettlement of people from supposedly good homes. Therefore this story is in fact a violation of the actual position. It is arguments such as these which are, and successfully at that, arousing hatred for the Whites. The so-called decent homes from which Coloureds were resettled in District Six, I can tell you, were such that in the last rainy season numerous of them collapsed in ruins as a result of that rain.

What is the solution with which the hon. member for Sea Point came forward? He is highly amused, but he came along this afternoon and said there was a difficult situation and we should start a “crash programme” to solve the problem of Coloured housing. You know, Sir, these are two words the Opposition are very fond of renewal, or “change”, and then “crash programme”. He said we should have a “crash programme” to train Coloureds as bricklayers and draughtsman and architects and we should also train them as engineers. I tell you, Sir, it would be a real “crash” if we were to do it in that way. The function of the Department of Community Development is, apart from the fact that it has to provide housing, to do everything in its power to establish orderly communities. For that reason this department may not allow slum conditions with all the attendant social evils to prevail within a community which would otherwise be a peaceful and well-balanced community. I also want to say that as a sociologist the hon. member for Rondebosch ought to know that these mixed residential areas which we had in the past, were for the most part backward residential areas because a race group living in such a neighbourhood does not have the necessary stability which stimulates it to develop its property there. For that reason I want to make a serious appeal to the hon. the Minister and say that his department should not relax its efforts to establish order in all the communities, in other words that it should rather accelerate this programme of resettlement than slow it down, in the interests of all population groups. Sir, I now want to tell you, on the basis of an example in my own constituency, what the situation there is. Do you know that before resettlement was commenced in the Peninsula group area No. 5, the Milner/Lansdowne area, that area was virtually in a state of physical decay because there was that degree of uncertainty, but the moment resettlement began, that place burgeoned and so much so that there are now only a few families left who still have to be resettled, and the community is developing from scratch. Now there are still other communities such as Peninsula 53 and Peninsula 22, where there are still a considerable number of families of the disqualified group who will also still require assistance from the department. But then we find that it is not only the Progressive Party who discuss this matter with great gusto, but also the official Opposition who discuss this matter with great gusto.

Of course.

Yes, of course. I specifically want to ask the hon. member for Wynberg, who is my neighbour there but for a spot in between, whether he feels that the Government should at this moment halt resettlement from existing group areas until such time as all other Coloureds have been resettled?

I said nothing about that.

Yes, I know you said nothing, and that is why I want to ask you this question. Will you agree today with your colleagues on the opposite side that the Government should halt resettlement from group areas in the Cape Peninsula? I am asking you this specifically with reference to the position in Peninsula 21, the so-called Claremont “pocket” which is situated in the constituency of the hon. member.

Ask the Minister rather.

Do you see, Sir, how easy it is to talk about these things? All you do is say it is petty apartheid and all you do is say the Government is inhuman. [Interjections.] But when a person asks an hon. member this elementary question: Tell us whether the Government should call a halt to removals, then he is not prepared to reply to it. [Interjections.] [Time expired.]

The last time I had anything to do with the Peninsula in any intimate way was when I used to run a boys’ club and a Sunday school in the Windermere slums township, and I must say it is a big relief that the Winder-mere area has now been rebuilt and that we have disposed of the slum conditions there. Sir, I would like to draw the Committee’s attention to one underlying thread which has been going through the discussion in Committee this afternoon and yesterday but which has possibly not been identified in relation to this department. There is in fact a revolution going on in South Africa at the moment in terms of our whole social life. This is a revolution in terms of the urbanization and the industrial changes which we have to face. It is a pattern of development which has taken place in every industrializing country throughout the world. It is possibly aggravated in this country because of our population explosion, which has also been mentioned. It is a fact in any housing situation that the poor people in the rural areas move away and come into the cities. If one visits the Free State, places like Hobhouse, Paul Roux, Smithfield and Rouxville, and also in the Karoo places like Victoria West, Richmond, and Carnarvon, one will see what has happened to the White population in these areas. It has been reduced drastically over the last 30 years. This pattern will happen and is already happening amongst the Coloured people and also the Black people in South Africa. The most striking example is the way in which it happens throughout the world. In poor countries of the world, the third world, India and Pakistan, people move to Europe and to England to get away from their poor rural areas into the urban industrialized areas. The Minister and his department are going to have a very, very difficult job in the next 25 years. What criticism I have of the report is that there is no attempt anywhere to make a forecast of the need for housing in South Africa. It seems to me that the housing situation is going to become increasingly serious in South Africa with our present population explosion, so much so that it seems to me to be urgent that the whole matter should be handled by one department and that our Black housing problem should not be handled by the hon. the Minister of Bantu Administration and Development, but that rather all housing should be grouped under one department. One of the problems of the Department of Community Development is to create decent community life, and this is going to be its major problem in the years ahead. We have had a number of references to the importance of cluster housing—or “tros-behuising”, which is a very good translation. I would like to suggest to hon. members of this House that if they want to see a development of a community housing scheme par excellence, a scheme which I regard as one of the finest examples of community housing schemes from the sociological point of view and also from the point of view of amenities and architecture, they should visit my constituency, because as hon. members pass through the beautiful garden province of Natal and wind their way down the longest section of motorway in Southern Africa, they will be able to come into the delightful area of Pinetown-Kloof-Hillcrest, and as they pass Pinetown they will see on their right the Paradise Valley development. Sir, this is a tremendous development in every sense, and I would recommend that those people who are concerned with housing should come and have a look at this development.

Natal leads the way.

Mr. Chairman, while it may well be designed for people of a higher income group than the groups that the Department of Community Development is trying to serve, it does at the same time serve as a model of the kind of the community facilities and of careful planning which I believe we ought to be looking for in terms of housing. In fact, within 10 years that complex will be housing just under 15 000 people.

Mr. Chairman, I wish to touch briefly on the matter of financing housing. We have been concerned in this House with the fact that we are going to spend vast sums of money on housing non-White people. Many members opposite have said, “Where are we to find the money?” They were referring more particularly to a group of about 100 000 contract labourers. Sir, if we were to house these 100 000 contract labourers here in the Western Cape at a cost of R3 000 a dwelling unit, it would cost the country R300 million. I would suggest that this sum is not an unreasonable amount to spend when one bears in mind that for R300 million one would provide decent accommodation for about ½ million people, and that apart from that, it is an investment in decent family life and in a stable nation and people.

Mr. Chairman, finally I want to mention one small matter for the hon. the Minister’s attention, and that is the need of some of the small rural towns in various parts of South Africa, particularly in Natal. In Natal we have the curious situation that we usually have to provide housing for four racial communities, because Natal, of course, also has a Coloured community which is predominantly English speaking and in fact bears many of the fine English names of the Natal pioneers. Sir, I would like to focus attention particularly on the area of Weenen. [Interjections.] Sir, I should explain to hon. members opposite that I am not a Natal pioneer. Weenen is a very small rural village which, is I imagine, not untypical of other areas in Natal. It has a town board which is composed of conservatives and farmers who are cautious with regard to financing. There is a real need in this small community for housing for Indians and also for perhaps eight or 15 Coloured families. Sir, these people need to be housed. In reply to a question, the hon. the Minister has told us that the Indian community will be able to build their own homes. Sir, some of these people work as petrol attendants; some of them have other humble jobs and earn less than R30 or R40 a month. These people cannot possibly afford to build their own homes, and I would suggest, with respect, that the Minister and his department ought to pay attention to the question of providing some kind of sub economic housing for these Indian people and for this very small group of Coloureds in Weenen. It may even be necessary to give the town board in that area a gentle push, to use a euphemistic term. Sir, this situation in Weenen is not unlike that in many other parts of Natal, where you have a small Indian community and perhaps 20 or 30 Coloured families. I would ask the hon. the Minister to give his attention to this difficult situation in terms of numbers and also in terms of administration. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, the former speaker must not take it amiss of me if I do not follow up on what he said because he was really discussing his own constituency’s problems.

Sir, sitting here and listening to the hon. member for Durban Central, I was feeling very grateful that the National Party had come to power in 1948. Can you imagine, Sir, what the situation would have been in South Africa if the United Party had remained in power? Can you imagine what South Africa would have looked like as far as these very slums are concerned, these slums which this Government has displayed the courage to clear up?

What about Cleremont?

The hon. member should just listen for a moment. That hon. member and the hon. member for Sea Point are so obsessed with the housing position of the Coloureds. Let us go and ask the Coloureds whether they would like to go back to the conditions under which they had to live before they were resettled. I know the Coloureds on the Witwatersrand. Do you know, Sir, where those Coloureds, who are established in their own group area there, come from? They were removed from the Bantu locations, where they were living under extremely critical conditions. But now that these people have been established in their own group area, hon. members on that side come here and talk about this cruel Government that has removed the Coloureds from that area. Sir, would that party ever have had the courage to place a Group Areas Act on the Statute Book? Would they have had the courage to resettle those people in a group area under better conditions, as this Government has done? No, they would not have had the courage. Now the hon. member for Durban Central has come along here once again with the old story that the former member for Port Natal was always telling concerning the so-called profits which the department supposedly makes from land in areas where slum clearance takes place. The hon. member should tell me whether his party is in favour of slum clearance.

This is not slum clearance.

Sir, it is absolutely nothing but slum clearance. The hon. member asks for it to be left to private entrepreneurs to do the replanning and clearance there.

You do not know what you are talking about.

Sir, that hon. member did not know himself what he was talking about. Let us take a very practical example; let us take District Six, that is not far from here, as an example. This is the kind of area which hon. members on that side want to hand over to private entrepreneurs for clearance. They want the Government to give private entrepreneurs the right to expropriate properties. According to them the private entrepreneur should have the right to step in where he likes and expropriate land. [Interjection.] I ask the hon. member this specific question: Does he want the Government to give private entrepreneurs the right to expropriate properties? You will remember, Sir, that a year or two ago we had a Select Committee investigating this matter, and at the time hon. members on that side were unable to agree among themselves on the principle of whether the Government should have the right to expropriate another man’s property and give that property to a third person for redevelopment and replanning. He talks about profits that are made as if it were only a question of the purchase and sale price and as if no expenditure is incurred between purchase and sale. What about all the expenses in regard to the provision of services and planning? These, after all, are expenses that may not be left out of account in calculating the sale price. After all, the hon. member knows that the Government does not seek profit. Now, apparently, it is to be the private companies themselves, which are profit-seeking, which are to deal with these matters. One of our biggest problems is this very matter of the cost of stands. Who are the people who make big profits in this regard? It is these very private undertakings. By suggesting this method, the hon. member wants to encourage those people to make even greater profits. We get our cheapest sites from local authorities because they are not profit-seeking.

We know, too, that when the State buys property, it buys it at market value. Can any hon. member maintain that the state is not the best buyer of property and pays the best prices? Apart from the market value of the land, a certain amount is paid to the former owner in order to indemnify him for the inconvenience he had to endure. Must the State sell that property at a loss? Must the State give that property to private entrepreneurs and subsidize them in that way? No, in my opinion this is an absurd suggestion on the part of that hon. member, that would give rise to the creation of a monopolistic situation for private entrepreneurs so as to enable them to make profits at the cost of people for whom better conditions are being sought.

Mr. Chairman, in the course of this debate a considerable number of facts emerged. The first was that we are dealing here with an enormous numerical increase among the Coloureds. Mention was made of the fact that their birth rate is the highest in the world and this is, in my opinion, not far from the truth. The second fact is that we will need many millions of rands to meet the normal increasing housing needs of the Coloureds. The third fact is that there is already a considerable existing backlog. The fourth fact is that the goodwill exists on the part of the Government to meet this increasing need. The fifth fact is that we are dealing here with an enormous problem. We are dealing with a socio-economic problem and with a profound human problem. We are indeed dealing with an enormous population problem. In the light of these facts I want to put two questions. The first question is whether we would really have been able to have penetrated to the root of this problem without an effective population policy. Can it be solved solely with money and with houses? The second question I want to put is whether our growing economic structure will be able to withstand the population growth waves which will beat up against it in future.

Mr. Chairman, I trust the hon. member for Carletonville will forgive me if I do not react to his remarks and raise a matter which deals with another aspect of housing. I want to refer to the question of Coloured housing in the Durban complex. For 10 years now I have sought through interviews and correspondence with no less than four Ministers of Community Development and no less than four Ministers of Coloured Affairs to get some rapid movement in so far as the provision of Coloured housing in the Durban complex is concerned because the position has been and still is very serious. Actually, it is worse than it was some years ago. The waiting-lists are longer and the families who have had to accommodate their married sons and daughters are more crowded with the result that frustration is more evident. I say that the mood of the Coloureds is ugly and when I say that I am not being inciting; I am just stating cold facts. The Coloureds say that they have lost faith in the Durban people and in the city fathers of Durban because they hold them—to my mind incorrectly—responsible for this position. Why are they like this? It is because they do not just want promises and plans; they want to see houses and lots of houses. They are dissatisfied with the delay in starting adequate action. This can be highlighted with some statistics. An analysis of answers to my questions over the last nine years shows that in 1966 the estimated shortage of houses was 1 200. The figure had grown in 1973 to 2 322. I appreciate that the list is not always accurate because there is duplication. This is a factor that we have to take into consideration. What has been provided, however? The maximum number of houses ever to have been provided for the Coloured people in this complex during one year in the last nine years, was 576 houses in 1970. Two years after the late Minister Blaar Coetzee assured me that a crash programme would be undertaken in the Durban area, we find that 298 dwellings were erected last year. In the first half of this year, from January to June, no houses have been erected, but 296 flats were built. Let me say that I wish to compliment the department and their Durban branch on the building of those flats. I believe that these flats are attractive and that the department has made use of attractive colour schemes. Furthermore, I believe that the arrangement of the flats and the houses which have been put up in the Wentworth-Austerville area does credit to the department, but there are just not enough of them. These flats have offered new hope to some of the people in the Maranta Road area who have lived in shacks for 10 years under the most appalling conditions. I want to sound one note of caution and that is that I should like to suggest to the hon. the Minister that a careful check will have to be made on the effect of high density living on the young Coloured children. I believe there could be sociological problems and I know that the playing facilities are absolutely minimal. I know too that the play-grounds at the schools are very poor and in many cases non-existent, with the result that the streets become the gathering spots where these young children have to play. If they are living in a densely populated area it does not only create a traffic hazard, but will lead to sociological problems.

There has been minimum opportunity for home-ownership in the Durban complex for the Coloureds. Those who can afford to buy have been frustrated, because there is simply not the opportunity for them to do so. Later on I should like to make a suggestion in regard to that and I hope that the hon. the Minister will consider my suggestion. There is this greater need for home-ownership in the area because there is a growing number of Coloured people in Durban who are economically active. They do skilled work, they are earning good wages, but there are simply not enough plots on which they can build their own homes even when they do have the money to do so. They would vacate their present cramped conditions and homes if they could only get land on which they could build. What is the position? One of the important Coloured leaders in Natal rang me from Durban to tell me that his son, daughter-in-law and children who had been living in a converted garage on his premises for 17 years, had received the good news that they would be able to move into their own property in three weeks’ time. There are literally hundreds of people who have been waiting for periods of up to 15 years for their own homes.

Then we have the other unfortunate situation that there are hundreds of Coloureds living in a twilight world in Indian-owned flats in Indian areas. They are living there because they have simply nowhere else where they can live. In many cases they are paying rent beyond their financial means. I would like the hon. the Minister, when he replies to this debate, also to give some specific information as to when he expects the first homes to be fit for occupation in the Marianhill area and when the planning for Treasure Beach will be implemented. Also, if there are any delays in regard to the sections the local authority has to undertake, will he undertake that the department will offer every assistance possible in order to make sure that the corporation will have no problems in taking over land that may be occupied at (present? I believe that this difficulty could also possibly occur in the area of Newlands where the corporation is also establishing a housing scheme. When I received this telephone call from this Coloured leader who is also the chairman of the local affairs committee, he told me that the night before he had attended a meeting at which he had received a shock report from a sister of a religious convent who had been doing some research in the area of Austerville-Wentworth. Some of the conditions were reported to be appalling. For instance, 20 people were found to be occupying one room and in another case members of a family had to sleep in cars in the yard. She reported hundreds of cases of Coloureds living in disgraceful conditions simply because neither the local authority nor the department can offer them accommodation because it just is not available.

In the few minutes left to me I would like to detail a few suggestions to the hon. the Minister which I ask him to accept in a constructive spirit. Firstly, I would like to suggest that the hon. the Minister gives instructions for regular progress statements to be made in the Press and if possible over the radio to tell the Coloured people what is being planned and what has been done for them. Then I think it is absolutely essential to create at the first opportunity a properly constituted agency to deal with evicted families and to co-ordinate the efforts of local authorities and the Department of Community Development—I know what efforts the department is making. Then I believe that land for home-ownership projects should be allocated by merit selection and not by sale by tender. I believe this is what the Coloured people want because they find, with the scarcity of land, they have to pay inflated prices if they have to buy it by tender or by auction. Then, there is a request that the minimum salary ceiling should be raised from R320 per month to R400 per month. Then I should like to suggest that a close and constant observation be kept on the sociological aspects of high density living, particularly in Coloured areas where very few recreational facilities exist. Then, I ask that there should be an adequate application of funds for street maintenance in State and departmentally controlled Coloured areas. The streets are not always in the condition in which they should be. Then—and I believe this is very important indeed—I say there should be much greater consultation with the Coloureds themselves in the planning and lay-out of the amenities right from the initial stages. Then, I think there should be an investigation into the extent to which Coloureds are domiciled in the Indian areas with a view to overcoming this problem.

Finally, I believe there should be the elimination of any delay in providing adequate funds so that the local authority can go ahead knowing that it will always have the full weight of the Department of Community Development behind it to assist it in overcoming any obstacles it may encounter in its efforts.

Business suspended at 6.30 p.m. and resumed at 8.05 p.m.

Evening Sitting

Mr. Chairman, since we have now reached the end of the discussion of my Vote, I should like, in the first place, to say a few words of appreciation. I want to convey my appreciation to the hon. members of the Opposition who have participated in the debate for the moderate, peaceful and calm way in which they conducted the discussions. Hon. members put forward a variety of suggestions. Those suggestions are being weighed and sifted. I do not proceed on the assumption that this side of the House has a monopoly of wisdom. Frequently, too, it was not desirable for me to reply immediately to a suggestion, but first to consider it at leisure. There were a few unfriendly suggestions. I am thinking here of the hon. member for Durban Central, who was a little unfriendly. I shall come to the reason for the unfriendliness of that hon. member and we shall then examine it. I should also like to convey my appreciation to hon. members on this side of the House for the contributions which they made in my support and to the discussion of the Vote. I appreciate it.

The hon. member for Vasco put a question which slipped my memory when I replied to him at an earlier stage. He put a question in regard to the method of marketing in Tygerdal. The intention is that tenders must be called for. Where feasible, there are negotiations at fair prices for personal dwellings, as in certain Durban areas. Tenders are, however, the safest procedure. I hope that replies to the hon. members question. I come now to the speech made by the hon. member for Sea Point. The hon. member said that my department and the Government as such should not place stumbling-blocks in the way of houses for Coloureds and Indians. Sir, it is not the intention to place stumbling-blocks in their way. Rather, it is the intention to bring it within easier reach for them. If we adopt the standpoint that every person in the community should simply look after himself and see how he can manage in some way or other to have his needs filled if no specific provision is made for him, and the Coloureds were, in the process, to come up against the financially resourceful Indians and the even more financially resourceful Whites, then we would find that stumbling-blocks were really being placed in the way of those people to owning their own homes. If we were to treat them and the White group in its entirety exactly alike, I think their chances would be very slim.

The hon. member also referred to the Rents Act, which is not making provision for the necessary protection, etc. He wants the Rents Act to be investigated. Other hon. members also referred to the Rents Act. I am not certain to what extent I can enter into a discussion of the Bill which is at present being considered by the House. Therefore I would rather not express an opinion on this score, otherwise I would find myself in difficulty as far as you are concerned Mr. Chairman. However, I just want to point out at this stage that we are in fact trying to cover some of the problems raised here—for example by the hon. member for Green Point, who apologized for his absence—by means of the Rents Act. I am thinking, for example, of the intimidation to which the hon. member for Houghton referred. My department and I are fully aware of the fact that this is in fact happening. In that respect too we have tried to make the measures in the Rents Act more effective.

Chicken feed.

I am referring now to the speech made by the hon. member for Houghton. Seen as a whole. I can give the assurance that the lifting of rent control is not readily acceded to. A good case has to be made out for doing so. I am not aware of the figures in regard to the applications which were refused or those which were approved. Nor will the figures in themselves be much of a criterion, as flat owners in due course come to know when they have a chance of succeeding and when not. In the meantime there are also those who take chances. However, the lifting of rent control is not readily being acceded to. There are a few norms we have to bear in mind. The important norm is whether the luxury nature of the flat, and consequently the rentals which are charged, are such that these can only be afforded—as the position is at the moment—by people who do not need the protection of the Rents Act. I find myself in a position where I have to say that all flats and houses which were occupied prior to the end of May 1966, are under rent control. Flats and houses occupied on or after 1 June 1966, do not fall under rent control. This is a rather unfortunate state of affairs; all of us readily concede that. What it amounts to is discrimination between people who are engaged in the same occupation. For that reason these measures of the Rents Act have to be applied judiciously. We must accept that it is not the function of the owner to subsidize the lower income groups of the population. For that reason one has to ensure that owners are treated in a reasonable manner. On the other hand, one has to ensure that the tenant, on whom the owner is also dependent for the success of his enterprise, is not exploited. I am afraid that we will have to live with this state of affairs until we reach the stage at some time in the future when we can say that the necessary equilibrium exists between supply and demand, and therefore that the necessity for the application of the Rents Act no longer exists.

The hon. member for Sea Point made the point that group areas destroy the group identity of communities. I want to tell he hon. member for Sea Point that my information is precisely the opposite. With the announcement which I made here this afternoon in regard to money which has to be ploughed into community facilities to serve every specific community, I am more inclined to think that we shall succeed in establishing and developing a group identity for those people on a more permanent basis. The hon. member referred to a crash programme for Coloureds in the building industry.

I think the hon. member for Tygervallei stated my reply himself in his speech. The hon. member for Langlaagte raised the matter of an elderly married couple living in a house financed from Community Development funds. When the one dies, what is the position of the surviving spouse? In that regard I can say that my department tries to be as accommodating as possible in getting that person who remains behind satisfactorily settled in some other way, for example in a home for the aged. We need that accommodation which is intended for two or more persons. There are waiting lists for that accommodation, but we do not act in a hard-hearted manner.

The hon. member for Uitenhage mentioned the question of the Valleisig housing scheme. He put questions in regard to the effect of the increased rentals there. This was with reference to my announcement yesterday evening in regard to the old schemes. He mentioned the scheme which had not been established from National Housing Fund funds. Schemes of this kind are not affected by my announcement. He also raised the question of the restoration of houses which the municipality cannot afford. He referred to the houses in Fair-bridge Heights. The position there is that technical staff from my department as well as the town engineer of Uitenhage went to examine the extent of the damage in that area. Normally the municipality must have the necessary funds available, funds for restoration purposes. These funds have now accumulated to such an extent that we can begin to utilize them for other purposes. Normally those funds are available. If they do not have sufficient funds, they can apply to the department for the assistance which is necessary in regard to that restoration work.

I think the hon. member for Wynberg was a little more sarcastic than critical. He cast doubts on the friendship, the sound relations between my hon. colleague, the Minister of Planning and of the Environment, and myself. It is not necessary in matters such as these for the hon. member to refer jestingly to the friendship which exists between that hon. Minister and myself. It is a matter of correct conduct. That is there, apart from the friendship upon which he cast doubts. The hon. member said that the valuators who are appointed to determine the basic value want to do the Government a service by placing as low a value as possible on the property. What possible reason could there be for those people wanting to do the Government a favour? They are not remunerated by the State; they are appointed ad hoc on the basis of the specific knowledge they have. What possible reason could there be for their wanting to do the Government a favour? If one were to say to the owner that he should appoint a person to determine the basic value of that property, one would probably have the same accusation, but only in reverse.

They do so nevertheless.

The decision is eventually subject to arbitration if an agreement cannot be reached in that regard. However, the hon. member’s view in regard to the basic value is also wrong. To demonstrate the truth of my statement, I have here an explanation which I want to furnish to the hon. member. The determination of the basic value is intended only for the calculation of the depreciation contribution. This is what the department will have to pay if a depreciation contribution has to be paid. At the moment no appreciation contribution is payable, i.e. where the seller would have to pay. Therefore the basic value does not represent an amount which the owner will receive. The compensation is determined with expropriation, i.e. the amount which will have to be paid out to the owner, and it is to this amount that a sum is added for financial loss and for inconvenience.

The hon. member than recounted the story of that friend of his in Ceres. Sir, I am not acquainted with all the facts; this is apparently a process which began many years ago, and it is a process which should really be dealt with by my colleague, the Minister of Planning, and not by my department. We came into the picture at a stage after the area had been proclaimed. But when I listened to the story, it seemed to me as though it was a typical case of “picking out the eyes”, with which the hon. member was occupying his time, for with the scope of the activities of the department, I do not think it is humanly possible, with the best will in the world, to avoid having at some stage or another a case where a person may justifiably claim that he had been unfairly treated. This will happen in any community. It occurs within the activities of the State and it also occurs outside the activities of the State, without there being evil intentions or any dishonesty. My information is simply that Agricultural Credit and Land Tenure is interested at this stage because they want to acquire the land for a Coloured school, and that is outside the activities of my department.

The hon. member for Port Elizabeth North referred to the subsidizing of Coloured housing by White taxpayers. Mr. Chairman, the position is in fact that my department advances to that local authority all the funds which it requires to develop that township in all respects, and then the local authority is entitled to determine its rentals in such a way that it can cover the interest and the capital redemption on the moneys which have been advanced to it. Losses can arise through the provision of services such as electricity and water, and I also know that local authorities frequently complain that they suffer losses on the non-White townships; that is true. The department has assured me that the problem which the hon. member stated here, will be investigated in order to see what the nature of that problem really is and in order to see whether anything can be done about it. The clock cut the hon. member short when he was putting a question to me in regard to the income scales in respect of housing. I think I was able to guess the rest of the question reasonably accurately, and I can give the hon. member the assurance that this position will be looked at regularly. As the hon. member knows the scales were amended last year, but the position is looked at regularly to see how it is developing from time to time, and if such a necessity should become apparent, I shall contact my colleague, the hon. the Minister of Finance, and we shall then see what adjustments, which are in fact necessary, can be made.

The hon. member for Randburg raised a question of buildings owned by the Indians under leasehold, as well as the question of the amounts of money paid out for the land. As I understood the hon. member, what he was actually implying was that my department wanted to deprive them of their right to the land, and that the position was rectified in the end as a result of the kindheartedness of the city council of Johannesburg. The note which I have here states that we reached an agreement in Johannesburg with the city council. The Indians have no legal claim. It is leasehold. However we agreed that Johannesburg could, in terms of the agreement, pay out more than 90% of the compensation to the Indians. It was a difficult legal problem, but it has now been solved. Johannesburg can now pay the Indians. In other words, my department was actively engaged in finding an answer to the legal situation which arose. The hon. member referred to the people in Page View, the Indians there, not being able to obtain houses in Lenasia now. He said my department would eventually make a fantastic profit from that. Sir, I hear about these fantastic profits, but I do not find them. I do not know what happens to them, but I think we shall come to a very typical example when we deal with the fantastic profit the hon. member for Durban Central spoke about. Then that hon. member will also get an idea of what the profits look like. They say Lenasia would be a white elephant if it had not been for the Act. As far as I am acquainted with the position in Lenasia since I took charge of the department, the pressure of the Indian community, those who were not under pressure to move, was very great to be able to get into Lenasia. I have here a communication from my department concerning Indians who bought in Lenasia. They made up to 500% profit, even through resale to other Indians. Therefore it is not really my department which makes the so-called profits. There are other people in the same position as well.

The hon. member for Somerset East asked whether more attention could not be given to the building of detached houses in housing schemes. Sir, we try to establish balanced housing schemes, and we try to do this in the light of the socio-economic position of the community concerned. All of us would probably like to have a little house or a stand of our own, but it is not always practicable to make the necessary desirable provision. I think I have already stated my views in regard to the speech made by the hon. member for Houghton and the hon. member for Green Point.

The hon. member for Hercules put a question in regard to Lady Selborne. There were many delays, as the hon. member is aware, and to which he also referred. The position is now that the Development Board and the Municipality have accepted the planning, and that it was submitted to the Townships Board on 15 August of this year. After it has been passed by the Townships Board, I think we will be able to proceed.

I come now to the hon. member for Durban Central. He spoke in vague terms about socialization, and then came to the profits my department is allegedly making. He said that in one case my department had made a profit of 34%, and in another case a profit of 12%. This, he said, was according to the replies I had furnished to him. Sir, I did not furnish the hon. member with such replies. He did not ask me what profit my department had made. He asked me at what price the land had been purchased and at what price the land had been sold. I furnished him with those replies, but if he knows anything about what is going on here, he would have known that a great deal of money had been spent before it had been purchased; then he would have known that in any event there has to be considerable expenditure in such a transaction. In other words, the hon. member put a faulty question to me and on faulty information which he received as a result of the faulty question, he went and made his deduction.

I hear that he kicked up a great fuss in the Press about the reply which he received in regard to the profits which had been made. He did not really try to establish whether any profit had been made and, if so, what the profit had been. He can smile now and say that he got in a blow in any case. He can say that he succeeded in having a story printed in the Press and that he got away with it, but he cannot get away with it this evening, for the actual position is that a larger site was purchased than the two lots in regard to which he asked for information. That larger site had to be purchased because it had to be acquired with a view to replanning, and for the development which would result from that replanning. I must elucidate the actual position in respect of the larger AK site, in order to indicate precisely how wrong one can be if you think you know something while you are not aware that you do not know. [Interjections.] The 20 lots, viz. lots 196 to 205, were consolidated, together with the service lane, and subdivided into five subdivisions. The total costs in regard to the purchase, subdivision, etc., is made up as follows:

The purchase price of the properties plus interest, but without deduction of the value of buildings which had to be demolished, amounts to R536 931,68. The lots were purchased during the period 8 July 1966 to 10 November 1972. To calculate the total costs, the following amounts have to be added: Transfer fees, R3 113; pro rata tax, R1 068; demolition costs. R868; advertising costs during sale, R1 800; auctioneer’s costs, R11 575; depreciation contribution, R5 200; land surveyor’s costs, R1 854; and costs of removal of services, R6 000. The total costs therefore amounts to R568 410. Four of the subdivisions have already been sold for R445 000. The remaining subdivision, viz. lot 3, will therefore have to be sold for at least R123 410 before there will really be any possibility of a profit. The four lots which have been sold, were corner sites, while lot 3 is a inner lot. The average price for the four lots sold, was R111 250. The highest offer for lot 3 at the auction was R60 000. It would therefore seem as though it will not even be possible to cover the total costs, to say nothing of making a profit! [Interjections.]

Order!

It is probably wonderful to think that you know. That is the position in which the hon. member finds himself. He made the same blunder in respect of Block G in regard to which he berated my department. Block G was frozen at the special request of the city council of Durban. They made out a case for it being frozen, and then my department froze it. The city council of Durban tried to proceed with the development, but they could not satisfy themselves concerning the bodies with which they negotiated. The city council of Durban then approached my department and asked for expropriation. I consented to expropriation so that the city council of Durban could proceed with its plans. [Interjections.] It seems to me the hon. member is sitting there now yawning like a stranded fish. [Interjections.] This brings me to the last speech, the speech made by the hon. member for …

Mr. Chairman, may I ask the hon. the Minister a question? The owner of the lots in the subdivisions 3, 5 and 6 addressed a request to the department to be allowed to sell properties in spite of the fact that they have been frozen. How does the hon. the Minister explain that?

Is the hon. member for Durban Central now referring to Block G?

Yes.

This is a request which was made to the city council of Durban but to which they did not want to accede. After all it is their city. They came to me with representations for it to be expropriated so that they could proceed with planning for otherwise, so they told me, an undesirable situation would develop there.

Is that the city council?

Oh. Mr. Chairman, the hon. member should simply accept now that he has been trounced, and he may as well keep quiet so that I can proceed to deal with the decent speech made by the hon. member for Berea.

The hon. member for Berea made a few statements with which I cannot fully agree. The statements which he made were correct, but I do not think that the hon. member’s conclusions were correct. The hon. member put certain questions also made certain suggestions, for which I want to thank him. The hon. member said that the position in Durban in regard to Coloured housing was worse than it had been a few years ago. I readily accept that this is true, for there is a reason for it. I have here the joint Press statement issued by the mayor of Durban, Mr. Williams—I do not think that he is still the mayor at present—and myself. The hon. member will find in this the reply to his question. It reads as follows—

It is going to be 65 000 by 1980.

That may be the case. I cannot deny it. We have no control over the influx of these people into any part of the Republic of South Africa. We can only await that situation and see what we can do about it if it should materialize.

*That is the explanation, and I think it is a reasonable explanation, one which any reasonable person will accept. I quote further—

There, it is admitted that there is a backlog. The hon. member added that the backlog had increased. I accept that as well.

The hon. member also said that we should be careful in regard to Coloured children in high-density housing, for sociological problems could develop. I do not want to argue about that. There are competent people who are discussing and studying the implications of high-density housing. The results of those studies are placed at our disposal. I want to say to the hon. member that there is a real problem which could perhaps have prejudicial consequences in another respect, which is that my department has no alternative but to build houses for all population groups, houses which are within the means of the people whom one wants to provide with houses. We cannot get away from the fact that these have to be paid for. Sub-economic housing is being subsidized, but they must nevertheless pay for it. We must not place people in houses which they cannot afford, for we could then have poverty which would cause the people to live in the bushes again. This would in turn have sociological consequences which I cannot fathom. In addition I can say to the hon. member that I have seen high density housing in Coloured residential areas where we are engaged in clearance operations, where we have already finished clearing, and where the way they were able to live crowded together into a few square metres in one room caused my hair to stand on end. High density housing which cannot but be extremely dangerous, and we shall have to avoid this situation in the townships we are developing. In addition the hon. member raised certain other questions to which the department furnished me with certain replies. I do not have the questions and replies in order now. Therefore I shall simply furnish the replies; the hon. member will know what I am referring to.

†In connection with Marian Hill, houses will be built during 1975-1976. In the case of Treasure Beach planning has been very seriously expedited and it is expected to be ready for urban settlement at the end of 1975 or in 1976. In the case of Newlands numerous farms have been purchased for Indians and schemes amounting to millions of rand have recently been approved and are being carried out. Approximately two weeks ago we confirmed that seven schemes for Coloureds have been carried out. This is in terms of the agreement between the Mayor of Durban and myself. A Coloured housing programme was worked out with local Coloured representatives who were present at the negotiations with the city council.

*I think that that, in the main, covers all the points raised. I want to thank the Committee for a pleasant debate.

May I ask the hon. the Minister a question? Would the hon. the Minister please react to the point which I raised? I asked him whether he was satisfied with the application of the Rents Act, particularly in an area such as Sea Point where in one year the Rent Board granted a 38% increase in rental. This seems like an exceptionally large increase for one year in the case of controlled flats.

Apparently there has recently been an extremely high increase in Sea Point; the hon. member for Sea Point said that it was an increase of 38%. The information made available to me was that the owners of flats in Sea Point had not increased rentals for a considerable time. The hon. member asked whether I was satisfied with the application of this legislation. I want to say to the hon. member that the only conclusion I can draw from that, is that the hon. member is of the opinion that the Rent Board does not pass a sound judgment.

Thirty-eight per cent is really a great increase.

Yes, the cause of this, as I have said, was that there had been no increases for a long time. Consequently the backlog mounted. That is the information I have. Rent boards are autonomous bodies. From the rent boards there is an appeal to the Rent Control Board, which is also an autonomous body. I cannot interfere in its decisions. If I have reason to believe that something irregular has transpired, I try of course to establish what happened. I have already done this on one or two occasions.

Votes agreed to.

Revenue Vote No. 24, Loan Vote M and S.W.A. Vote No. 12.—“National Education”:

Mr. Chairman …

Ask for the half-hour.

… I ask for the privilege of the half-hour. First of all I wish to pay tribute to my predecessor, Mr. Etienne Malan, who, although he acted as the chief spokesman of this side for only one year, made a tremendous contribution over a number of years to the activities of the Department of National Education, particularly in regard to the SABC, television and cultural affairs.

Where is he now?

But where we are now discussing the Vote of the Minister of National Education, I believe that its designation is misleading. While the two branches of the department, the cultural branch and the educational branch, cover a tremendously wide field, one finds on closer analysis that what is actually under discussion is still a mere fragment of the educational set-up in South Africa. In the first place it is confined to one section of the population. In actual fact the Minister and his department are only able to supply information on one section of that section. But we must accept that in terms of the Act which lays down the national education policy the hon. the Minister is the Minister of National Education. He has all the power. Accordingly, his predecessor said that we could attack him on any aspect of education.

I now want to state my first problem to the hon. the Minister. When hon. members of this House wish to obtain information in order to ascertain the real position of education in South Africa, we find that neither the Minister nor his department nor the Department of Statistics is really in the position to supply it. For example, we want to know what the real shortage is in respect of, say, mathematics teachers in South Africa, or how many teachers qualified in this country last year. These are questions which cannot be answered in this House. One has to go to the various education departments of the various provinces for that information. How does the hon. the Minister reconcile this state of affairs with what is said on page 16 of the annual report? I want to read the relevant paragraph to him. I quote:

That was in 1973. Now I want to ask the hon. the Minister what is meant by this. Is this system working, or is it worth no more than the paper it is printed on? The point I want to make is that I believe that for the proper economic progress and for the planning of the country it is necessary to have a body somewhere which knows exactly what the position of education is in the whole of South Africa, not only in respect of the Whites, but also in respect of the other races in South Africa. That is why we in the United Party have made provision for a multi-racial federal assembly in which there would be a Department of Co-ordination of Education, which would be able to ascertain on the national level what the position of education in South Africa was at a given moment. Hon. members opposite may reject this policy, but this is the way South Africa will be governed and will have to be governed eventually. We believe that this could be brought about, in spite of the fact that the various legislative assemblies would have the right to lay down education policy as far as it affected them. The point I want to make is that this is something which is possible even within the framework of the Government’s policy. As far back as 1968 a permanent Inter-departmental Committee for the Co-ordination of Educational Services for All Races was established. This Committee was established in 1968. If we go through the various reports of the National Education Council, we find the following: In 1969 they announced that the original terms of reference had to be amended because they were too vague. In October 1969 they submitted new proposals to the then Minister. I should like to read to you what the proposals were. They said (translation)—

Then I quote another of the proposed terms of reference (translation):

Sir, this was said in 1969. In the report for 1970 we see that this matter was discussed with the hon. the Minister on 9 November. He then said that he wanted to acquaint himself with the views of other interested parties before committing himself on the matter. In 1971 we find that still “no finality has been reached”. This matter was discussed again on 30 October 1972. We must realize that this is an important matter which deals with co-ordination of the educational services for all races with a view to training manpower. In 1973 we find in the report that the committee is being abolished. In the first place I want to object most strongly to its abolition and in the second place I want to object to the fact that the terms of reference were not amended in time in order that this committee, which was known as Piccor, might have been put to some positive use. To me, the most shocking aspect of this is the reason why the committee was abolished in 1973. According to the report of the National Education Council it was abolished because “there was no need for the continued existence of Piccor as a permanent committee”. In the second place we are informed that Piccor “has served its purpose”, and in the third place that “if the need should arise again for the co-ordination of education in relation to the supply of trained manpower, the chairman of the Economic Advisory Council will take the necessary steps.” Let me tell the hon. the Minister that I believe that Piccor has not served its purpose. In actual fact it never got off the ground. They wanted to change the terms of reference. There is a necessity for us to ascertain in South Africa today exactly what the position in respect of education is, not only for ourselves as Whites, but for the other races as well. This must be the task of a Minister of National Education. For that reason I want to tell the hon. the Minister today that I believe that we should establish a multi-racial committee for the co-ordination and promotion of education for all races. If the hon. the Minister does not like the idea of a multi-racial committee, then call it a multinational committee, as long as it is a committee on which the various education departments, White and non-White, are represented, and on which the homeland governments, for example, are also represented, in order that we may begin to plan properly in South Africa. If the committee could form part of a Department of National Education it would certainly have some significance.

I want to go further and refer to universities. Here I want to remind the hon. the Minister of the fact that he apologized to us last year for not being able to table the Van Wyk De Vries Report. He said that he hoped to do so in December last year. Earlier this year he said that he hoped to do so towards the end of September this year. Now I want to be very honest with the hon. the Minister. As an over-worked parliamentarian I should not like to receive this report a day or two before the debate, because it must be a very bulky report indeed. If that were to happen, I do not think we would be able to debate the matter properly. However, in respect of universities in South Africa and of education as a whole I believe that there is an urgent need for this report to be made available. I shall tell you why, Sir. In the first place I believe that the danger exists that the information on which this report is based may be so outdated when we debate the matter that that information will be of historical interest only. In the second place the committee received certain terms of reference, 15 terms of reference. We cannot postpone a debate on these any longer. We must take a stand now. We must take positive action now. The fifth term of reference, for example, reads as follows.

The whole system of university admission is a matter to which serious attention must be given. We should not conduct a debate here and lay all the blame on the universities for the fact that there are campus disturbances. The problem of a high failure rate is a universal problem which is experienced by all the universities, even the “well-behaved” universities. This is a problem which is not experienced at the so-called “well-behaved” universities only. It is experienced at the so-called “mischievous” universities as well. I am a product of a so-called “well-behaved” university myself. [Interjections.] It was a problem experienced by that university too. The cause lies much deeper.

[Inaudible.]

Yes, but I got there long after you did. The causes of the problem are to be found in our educational system, in our schools, and I believe that the whole system of examinations has to be questioned. It seems obvious that the matriculation exemption examination no longer serves the purpose it is supposed to serve. There has been a variation. The question arises whether the universities themselves should set an entrance examination or whether we should consider a continuous evaluation where the decision will really be taken by the teachers, on the grounds of the child’s progress at school. However, the fact that the Van Wyk de Vries Report is not available is creating a problem. I do not believe that we can really argue and debate these points before we have received that information. Another point I want to raise is that I am very sympathetically disposed towards the establishment of an Afrikaans university in Northern Natal. I believe that it would be justified. However, we come to the fifteenth term of reference—

When someone suggested earlier this year that a university should be established at Mossel Bay or some other place, the hon. the Minister said that we should first submit the report. He said that until such time as the report had been discussed he could not take a decision on this matter. In respect of finance, too, we told the hon. the Minister last year—and I am perfectly aware of this—that the interim report which had appeared in 1969 or 1970 had formed the basis for the financing of universities for 1970 and subsequent years. One of the more important terms of reference here is that it is absolutely essential for the universities to have a proper basis of subsidizing and that there must be no doubt about this. I have a report here which appeared in The Daily News on 4 October 1974. It reads as follows:

This is a matter which has been the subject of discussions for a long time and I think the time has now come for something positive to be done about this, or else we shall have to ask for a commission of inquiry to be appointed to inquire into the fate of the Commission of Inquiry into Universities.

In respect of the universities I also want to say this to the hon. the Minister: He said in Bloemfontein recently that there were certain university students who were always on the lookout for conflict situations. I do not want to argue the matter with the hon. the Minister. Let us accept this statement. If that is his attitude, I want to tell him that I do not understand why he acted as he did—he said there had been no official request—in respect of the willingness of the University of Cape Town to establish mixed residences. There is a principle at stake here. I take exception to this, for whichever way one looks at the matter, it remains an interference with the autonomy of the universities. Where you have the university authorities, where you have the parents, where you have the students, and where even research that has been conducted has not been able to produce any evidence that it would have a harmful effect, I believe that it was most undesirable for the hon. the Minister to have interfered in this specific matter. I believe that it would have a beneficial effect. I have always held the view that it would have a beneficial and not a harmful effect on student behaviour.

Sir, we have had an announcement here this year of new salary scales and post structures, and I want to tell the hon. the Minister that it is welcomed. We realize, of course, that the professions themselves were responsible for the attempt to keep the salary scales a secret. I accept that and I respect it. They wanted them to be kept secret, of course, and they were kept secret until the Government’s faithful slave, Die Burger, got hold of the new scales and let the cat out of the bag. Sir, I think that a properly motivated explanation from the hon. the Minister would have been much desirable under the circumstances.. Many members of the public do not realize, for example, that the new salary scales that have been published were actually consolidated salary scales which included the 15% increase granted last year. But what I do welcome is the distinction that has been made in respect of the senior assistants and the various categories, which could serve to encourage people to obtain better qualifications. Of course, the question arises of whether the new salary scales are adequate in the light of the increasing cost of living. A salary which may be regarded as being sufficient today may prove to be quite insufficient in six months’ time. I think one should take cognizance of what was said by the chairman of TTA, Mr. J. R. Ram-stone—

We must accept, therefore, that doubt does exist in certain sections of the profession as to whether the new scales are sufficient.

Then, Sir, I just want to point out that in respect of teachers, the hon. the Minister was to a certain extent guilty last year of using what I consider to be spoiling tactics in regard to the establishment of a professional education council. He actually challenged me to tell him what exactly the functions of this council should be. Sir, this side of the House, the United Party, has grown so accustomed to governing the country from the Opposition benches for 26 years, that I shall take the initiative once again and tell the hon. the Minister in all seriousness that if he were to take the Education Council Act of Scotland, of which I have a copy here, as a foundation and if he were then to base his legislation on this Act as far as possible, in regard to the constitution, the functions and the disciplinary powers of the council, as far as local circumstances allow, he would find that we would be able to support him.

Sir, we now come to the other aspect which forms part of the Department of National Education. Two or three years ago this was not yet the case; at that time the SABC and television still fell under the Department of Posts and Telecommunications. My question to the hon. the Minister is this, and I believe that the whole nation is waiting to hear from him: How smoothly are the preparations for the introduction of television taking place? You see, Sir, from time to time there are reports in the newspapers in this regard, and they are alarming reports. Here I have one, for example: “Trouble looms as switch-on nears. Wanted R1 000 million to avoid T.V. fiasco”. The Minister may say that it could be just propaganda, but then one finds, for example, what was said by Mr. George Brodie, Chairman of the Radio Appliances and T.V. Association—

These are the points that are being made. It seems to me that a case could be made out for the earlier introduction of television, particularly from the viewpoint of industry. They believe that it would assist them in training people if there were an earlier and more gradual introduction. I am not expressing any opinion on the matter. The hon. the Minister is the person to whom we should come, and there are so many questions in this regard to which commerce and industry want replies. Therefore the Minister should make use of this debate to give us clear answers, For example, how is the training coming along? Last year mention was made of phase one—the training of approximately 3 000 people from operator level up to the highest level. Last year the hon. the Minister told us that he was waiting for questionnaires which had been sent out to the six firms and that he could not give us an exact answer. But we should like to know exactly what progress is being made here.

On behalf of Parliament as an institution I want to object most strongly to the recent announcement made by Dr. Meyer about a week or two ago. He announced that as the chairman of the SABC he would also act as chairman of the new statutory body, which is to be an advisory council for television programmes. Last year the Minister told us (Hansard, col. 7206) that legislation would have to be passed for the institution of this television advisory council. But even before this Parliament has been able to consider and pass legislation in this connection, Dr. Meyer has already announced that as the chairman of the SABC he will himself be its principal adviser. This is absolutely ridiculous. I believe that only a Broederbond chairman could argue like this. But what we have to object to as a House of Assembly, as an institution, is the fact that the big Brother has announced to a lot of junior Brothers at a meeting of the Rapportryerskorps at Goodwood that he himself is going to be the chairman, and we as a House of Assembly have not even decided on the constitution of such a body. I believe that the hon. the Minister owes Parliament an apology on behalf of Dr. Meyer.

We have lived through another year with the SABC, and I might as well tell the hon. the Minister that I am one of those people who believe that grave doubt is being cast on the credibility of the SABC by its prejudiced attitude and biased reporting. I know that the hon. the Minister told us last year that the readers of the East London Dispatch rated the credibility of the SABC more highly than that of the English press. If that is what they say in East London, it still does not follow that I feel the same way, and here I just want to tell the hon. the Minister that what is bothering me—and this is what I am objecting to—is that from time to time persons and organizations in South Africa are attacked. The persons say that the reporting was prejudiced and distorted, but they are not given the right also to make use of the SABC to state their point of view. During the last election the enlightened hon. Deputy Minister of Bantu Administration and Education launched an attack, by implication, on the City Council of Johannesburg, on which the United Party has the majority. However, when inquiries were made as to whether council member Oberholzer would be allowed to state the case on behalf of the City Council, the request was turned down. There is much talk of multi-national development in South Africa, but I want to quote from The Natal Mercury of 17 May what Chief Buthelezi had to say—

I mentioned the cases where people have said that they were treated unfairly. I believe on principle that people who feel they have been treated unfairly should be given the opportunity of stating their case.

In the newspapers as well?

One may always write to a newspaper editor.

The SABC presented a programme entitled “student activities”. Of course, when I quote the following report, hon. members will say, “Yes, but that is only Nusas.” The fact remains, however, that doubt is being cast on the credibility of the SABC. This is what was said by the chairman of Nusas—

I read from what appeared in a newspaper during 1971—

The report goes on to say—

I have already referred to the complaint which came from the United Party when we felt that we should like to reply to certain allegations. I have also referred to the case of Chief Buthelezi. Nusas also objected, but their objection, of course, may be dismissed by saying that it was only Nusas, after all. However, I have also quoted the standpoint of the SRC of Stellenbosch University. If one adds up all these facts, it proves that the credibility of the SABC is in doubt. I believe that many of these problems could be eliminated if the SABC were prepared to give people who feel that their standpoints have been distorted the opportunity—it would be no more than right—of stating their standpoints in order that he liseners may judge for themselves. In that case, if such persons were to hold views which would cause them to be condemned by the South African community, every person who listened to the broadcast could form his own opinion of the matter.

Mr. Chairman, like a listless rooster trying to peck up a few scattered maize kernels, the hon. member for Durban Central made his speech, pecking away with accusations and charges at the department. He made those accusations and charges over a broad front and used approximately half an hour to make all these accusations and false charges. I cannot possibly give up my precious ten minutes to reply to him, but the hon. the Minister and some of my other colleagues will in fact react to what he had to say.

I definitely want to be more positive. At the outset I should like to pay tribute to Mr. Grobbelaar, the Director of Cultural Affairs, who is retiring on pension from the service at the end of October of this year. With the establishment of the Department of National Education on 1 November 1970 Mr. Grobbelaar was promoted to Director of Cultural Affairs. Mr. Grobbelaar’s experience in formal education covered a very wide field. Inter alia, he was inspector and chief inspector. With his extensive educational background and his special interest in the many branches of informal education, he in particular rendered excellent service in his present post. It has been my privilege to have known Mr. Grobbelaar for many years, and I have come to know him as a very helpful and friendly person at all times. I believe that everyone coming into contact with him would give him the same testimonial. Since he is now retiring after a full and fruitful period of unstinting and loyal service I want, on behalf of this side of the House, to wish Mr. Grobbelaar and his good wife many more pleasant and joyful years, as well as good health.

After the recent announcement of increased salaries, and particularly of a better salary structure for teachers, we hope that this will contribute to young people and particularly young men entering the teaching profession, and that those who have left it will return. Increased salaries in themselves will not be of much use if attention is not sharply focused on the entire spectrum of education, the total needs of education and the national service which is rendered through and in education, and if public interest in it is not aroused. Educationists, educational bodies and other organizations have on various occasions in the past expressed the idea that an education year which could culminate in a national education conference should be organized. A steering committee has already been appointed under the jurisdiction of the National Education Council. They have also directed the contemplated projects and programmes for the education year. Initially, education year was planned for 1973, but as a result of the circumstances prevailing at the time, it was postponed. I do not think the hon. the Minister and the department have abandoned this grand and commendable idea. We need only recall the tremendous success with which the Water Year and the Green Heritage Year was crowned, and the tremendous enthusiasm which was aroused in this way. The organization of such an education year at this particular point in time is a very urgent matter. The idea of an organization of an education year is still being fostered and brought to one’s attention by an item “Miscellaneous Expenditure” which appears under sub-head E of the Vote. According to that item an amount is being appropriated for this idea. I should like to express the thought and the hope that the plan with regard to an education year will be launched in all earnest.

As a former educationist I should like to convey appreciation and thanks to the Cabinet, the Government and the Minister for the salary increases which were recently announced. In particular I want to convey my thanks and appreciation for the new salary structure. The organized teaching profession has since 1966 been doing its best to bring about a new salary structure. This is also the only point in regard to which I can agree with the hon. member who has just spoken. The announced salary scales have to a large extent eliminated problems which have for years caused a measure of dissatisfaction and frustration. In this salary structure recognition is now being given for qualifications in promotion posts up to and including that of vice-principal. This is a progressive and positive approach, and it will definitely stimulate further study and be conducive to making available and retaining well-trained teaching staff. I should like to express the hope that these favourable salary increases, with the sound elements inherent in them, will not only assist in retaining well-trained teachers, but will also lead to the return of teachers who have already gone to seek greener pastures elsewhere.

The stimulus to further training, principally academic, will also enhance the status of the teaching profession and will, it is hoped, attract better recruits from the high schools and particularly the English-language high schools. It is particularly from the English-language schools that we are experiencing this deficiency, because we cannot attract enough recruits from the English-language high schools. Instead of the hon. member who has just spoken making an appeal to the English-language pupils of the high schools to enter the teaching profession, he merely levelled criticism. For the young man with idealism, perseverance and a sense of purpose, teaching offers …

And with brains.

Yes, that too. To such a young man teaching really offers an attractive livelihood. Today there are far more stimulating promotion posts in education than ever before. The conditions of service are also attractive. In the monthly publication of the Transvaal Teachers’ Association, the T.T.—as you know, the T.T. is the largest teachers’ association in the Republic—fabourable comment was made on the salary increases, and in particular the new salary structure. Inter alia, the following comment was made in regard to the teacher as such (translation)—

That the teacher has to perform a very responsible, exceptionally exacting and sometimes an extremely thankless task, requires no demonstration. The place of the teacher and the formative task which they are performing, singles out this profession as one of the most important of professions. It is a unique opportunity and an indisputable privilege to work on the nation’s greatest asset, its most precious treasure, viz. its children. Children are the nations greatest and most valuable possession, and investment in the youth, the children of our nation, definitely pays the greatest dividends in the immediate and the distant future. It has become a mere commonplace to state that the best persons, thoroughly trained persons, should be attracted to educate this precious possession of the nation. Every parent would like to have the best teachers available for their child. But how many parents encourage their children to enter the teaching profession and to choose teaching as a career? The Government and the education department are blamed if it is not possible to fill all teaching posts with teachers who are experts on their subjects. They are blamed if insufficient men are attracted to teaching, but the parent, the taxpayer, must be willing not only to make his financial contribution towards paying the teachers a good salary in this way, he should not only appease his conscience in that way, he should also make a moral contribution and encourage and inspire his own children as well to enter the teaching profession. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, the hon. member for Gezina acquitted himself proudly tonight of the lamentations of Gezina, or Solomon, whichever you prefer. He started off by saying that all teachers wanted higher salaries, but that giving them higher salaries alone would not be sufficient. You would also have to give them an education year and this fabulous conference on education. They would still not be satisfied, because you would then still have to plead with them to come back to the profession. I believe the hon. member, in reverse, has said just what a bad show the hon. the Minister of National Education is making of education in this country. Were it not for the fact that the hon. member for Gezina had to plead like this for education, the hon. the Minister of National Education could have said that he was doing his job. I do not propose carrying on very much further with the hon. member for Gezina.

What interests me particularly is television, and particularly the dual control of television. The hon. the Minister of Education is one of those parties who is in control of television. The other party is not present here this evening—I wonder whether they are on speaking terms—viz. communications.

They have had a blow-out.

I think they may have had a blow-out, as my hon. friend says. I am wondering whether dual control is enough. I am wondering whether one should not have a triumvirate, whether one should not also call in the services of the hon. the Minister of Finance, who is not here this evening. I believe that the hon. the Minister of Finance has a most important task to fulfil in regard to television. I think the most important task he has to fulfil, is that he has to come to this House in as quick a time as he can and introduce before the end of the session a measure which will void all those contracts that have already been entered into by unsuspecting people with various suppliers who, I do not believe, are in the position to comply with the terms of those contracts. I am very sorry that the hon. the Minister of Finance is not here, but I do hope that his colleague, the hon. the Minister of National Education, will carry this message over to him. Perhaps he will be good enough to telephone him tomorrow morning. Perhaps the hon. the Minister of Finance will hurry back to South Africa to introduce this legislation as soon as possible. Sir, when you start dividing control over matters such as television, the rot sets in. We have already heard from the hon. the Minister of Posts and Telecommunications that he does not really know why we cannot have television at once. Several members on the other side of the House, when I was asking the hon. the Minister why we could not have television at once, referred me to the hon. the Minister of National Education. I am quite certain that, if I were to put all the questions I put to the hon. the Minister of Posts and Telecommunications to the hon. the Minister of National Education, he would refer me to the hon. the Minister of Posts and Telecommunications. That is exactly what happens when you have dual control. There is a constant passing of the buck. I believe that is what is going on at the moment: The fastest buck-passing that has occurred in many a year in South Africa. What is happening to television as a result of this? It is having a retarding effect on the whole operation. Surely that is not necessary. Surely, at this stage the hon. the Minister of Posts and Telecommunications can tell his friend—I do not know whether it is his friend—or his colleague, then, the hon. the Minister of National Education: “Look, I have all these co-axial cables laid all over the place. I have these micro-wave stations all over the place. Now what about putting on a show, old man? What about a show? Let us see whether the thing works. Unless we know that it works, how are we going to introduce television?” That is exactly what the position is at the moment. We do not know at this stage what agreements the hon. the Minister of National Education has concluded with his colleague—please note that I am not calling him his friend any more. I do not know whether there are any financial aspects to these agreements. I do not know whether the hon. the Minister of National Education is prepared to pay what the hon. the Minister of Posts and Telecommunications is demanding. Who is going to tell me? The hon. the Minister of National Education is not going to tell me. He is going to say: “No, don’t ask me. You are talking to the wrong Minister now. I know nothing about this. Talk to the hon. the Minister of Posts and Telecommunications.” This is the rot of television. If this is the way in which television is going to be introduced in South Africa, I personally will have no part in it and no tie with it. I will have nothing to do with it. If any of these hon. members here want to have something to do with it, I suggest they have their names inscribed in a book so that generations hereafter may damn them and damn them and damn them. What is the position in regard to the equipment? Has any equipment been installed? Would the hon. the Minister tell us whether any equipment has been installed at all?

Have you not read the report?

Yes, I have read all the reports.

Then you did not understand them.

Of course I understood the reports. I should like to know what television equipment has been installed, because the hon. the Minister of Posts and Telecommunications has told me during debate that I would, in fact, have to ask the hon. Minister of National Education whether a television show could be put on. It is such a simple matter. I know that there are difficulties. I know that the scenario writers, the dramatists …

The political indoctrinators.

… the political indoctrinators are not ready at the moment for television. But surely there are some people who are ready. If one can get no people locally, one could get them from other countries. The Broederbond could probably put on a good show. I believe that time is running out for television. I believe it is the task of the hon. the Minister of National Education to tell the hon. Minister of Posts and Telecommunications just where he gets off. If he cannot tell him where he gets off, it is hightime he switches off himself. Let us get the hon. the Minister of Finance to run the whole show. I believe there is no time like the present to make these decisions and I do hope that the hon. Minister of National Education will, in the course of his reply to this debate, which will probably take place tomorrow, give us chapter and verse in regard to exactly what has been done and what kind of show can be put on at present. I am perfectly convinced that there are a number of centres in the Republic of South Africa where a show could be televised tonight, immediately. I believe it is the hon. the Minister of National Education who is holding up the works. His colleague gave me to understand that if the hon. the Minister of National Education said it was all right, he would get on with the show. I would like to know very definitely from the hon. the Minister of National Education whether he can put on a show, and if he can, why he does not do so. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, it seems to me that logic is not really the forte of the hon. member for Wynberg who has just resumed his seat. He insists on the hon. the Minister presenting the first television programme to us this very evening and then he says that he himself wants nothing to do with this matter. I want to tell the hon. member for Wynberg that the hon. the Minister has said a number of times that we shall have our experimental transmissions first and that after that we shall have our television programmes at the beginning of 1976. We who shall have the privilege of viewing them will tell the hon. gentleman what he is missing. He doubted whether we had sufficient technicians for television. It so happens that I read yesterday that a successful recruitment campaign in this regard was launched overseas. There were 250 interviews with technicians and others and 60 of them were selected to return to our country shortly to help us launch television.

How about tonight?

The hon. member also made an attempt this afternoon to drive a wedge between the hon. the Minister of Community Development and the hon. the Minister of Planning and the Environment, but failed. This evening he again made an unsuccessful effort to drive a wedge between the hon. the Minister of National Education and the hon. the Minister of Posts and Telecommunications. I am not going to react further to the hon. member’s arguments because I want to discuss something entirely different.

Periodically we read in the newspapers about somebody or person asking our education authorities for some subject to be made compulsory in schools. I had a look at that long list of requests, and I thought that if the hon. the Minister were to comply with half of them, he would find that even if he doubled the length of the school day, he would not be able to fit in his time-table. This evening I want to add my plea to this chorus of pleas addressed to him from time to time. I do not want to make a plea for a new subject. To tell the truth, the subject for which I am making a plea tonight, is one of the oldest subjects taught at school. The subject for which I am making a plea tonight, is also one of the most important subjects. There are educationalists who believe that history is the most important subject at school, but for religious instruction and the home language. I want to mention the following matters in order to convince the hon. the Minister of the importance of instruction in history. One need not convince a person such as the hon. the Minister about this importance, but I want to mention it for the sake of the record: History is important, because history is the bearer par excellence of culture and the spiritual wealth of a people, its own culture and the culture of others. History breaks through the limited horizon of the pupil; it extends his horizon and broadens his outlook. Against the background of the past—and this is why history is important—the present is revealed more clearly. That is why the Dutch say—

(The present lies in the past, and the future in the present.) History also brings the child into contact with the human spirit and its expressions in various spheres and in this way is of value for the formation of ethical values. In history the pupil makes the acquaintance of the great historical characters. People, with their mighty ideals and their dynamic deeds, inspire him. History inculcates a reverence for, and an appreciation of, values such as justice, freedom, truth and integrity. History is pre-eminently the subject that educates the child to an acceptance of his responsibilities as a citizen. One could probably add many more to this long list of history’s excellent qualities as a school subject. That list would become so impressive that one would be amazed that history was not a compulsory school subject in matric. However, Sir, the reality is not so rosy, unfortunately. I made an analysis of the various subject packages, i.e. combinations of subject selections at the schools, in the various provinces. In Transvaal there are 295 different subject packages in secondary schools and of these there are 126 in which history can be taken as a school subject up to matric, viz. 41%. I do not know what the position is in the Orange Free State or in the Cape. I have an idea that the position in the Cape is somewhat more favourable than in the Transvaal. But in Natal the position is extremely unfavourable. There are 117 subject packages and in only 12 of those subject packages can history be taken as a subject—12 out of 117, which is 10%. These subject packages were introduced in 1973. I made inquiries at a few schools in the vicinity of Durban to determine how this affected the number of pupils. At one school I was told that there had been 40 pupils in Std. 8 the previous year; today there are 20. At another school there had been 30 whereas there are now 15. The number of pupils has dropped by half. Apparently the people there think that history is not an important subject. Of those 117 subject packages, one finds subjects such as biology in 60 of them, mathematics in 48, geography in 30, and even a subject such as typing has a higher priority than history there. Sir, we are running the risk of the next generation not knowing where they have come from nor where they are going. We are running the risk of having our children leave our schools as people without a memory, as people who do not know who their family is, as people who do not know who their fellow-citizens are, as people who do not know who their friends and fellow-countrymen are. The hon. member for Sea Point finds this terribly amusing.

Sir, if we in multinational South Africa do not know one another, if we do not know one another’s history and traditions and culture, it augurs ill for our peaceful coexistence. I do not consider myself competent to reply on how justice is to be done to history as a subject. The methodology of training in history must undoubtedly be revised, and there must be greater pupil involvement in this subject. We shall undoubtedly have to get away from the inflexible examination system which has perhaps affected history more than other subjects. Nor do I want to plead this evening that history be made a compulsory subject at school, because by doing so we should perhaps only cause the pupils to be resentful, but if I do not have the answer, I know that the hon. the Minister has at his disposal the services of qualified experts, people of stature, in his National Education Council, and therefore it is my plea that the hon. the Minister order a comprehensive investigation to determine how this fine subject, this important subject, this stimulating and gripping and inspiring subject, history, can once again come into its own in our schools.

Mr. Chairman, the political dishonesty of the United Party has been illustrated here this evening in a very effective way.

Order! The hon. member must withdraw the word “dishonesty”.

Sir, may I then say the political misconduct of the United Party …

Order! The hon. member must withdraw that statement in its entirety.

Let me, then, call it the political pliability of the United Party.

Order! The hon. member must withdraw his previous statements and also the last one.

Sir, I withdraw them and shall tell you what I really meant. The ambivalence of the United Party … [Interjections.]

Order! The hon. member must withdraw that.

I withdraw it, but then I want to say that politically, the United Party is undoubtedly the spiritual heir of the people we have learnt to know in the world, such as Idi Amin, who runs with the hare and hunts with the hounds and who employs a double standard. This evening the hon. member for Durban Central took it amiss of this side of the House and the SABC that the SABC allowed certain programmes to be broadcast in which other people were discussed and that those people supposedly did not have the opportunity to react. But, Sir, if they were so innocent and blameless in this regard, why then, when they had the opportunity to set an example, did they not set that example? I went to have a look at what happened in those years and I have before me some interesting replies in this regard with which the Opposition of that time were furnished. On 27 August 1940 … [Interjections.] Yes, that was when the hon. members opposite were governing and calling the tune. At that time a few questions were put to the Minister then in charge of radio affairs. One of those questions was whether the SABC regularly broadcast lecturers or speeches by Ministers, and if so, whether this was in accordance with the provisions of the Broadcasting Act and any regulations framed thereunder, and, is so, whether he would endeavour to procure the regular transmission of speeches by the Leader of the Opposition and other prominent members of the Opposition, and, if not, why not? The answer was: No, it was only occasionally that they broadcast speeches by Ministers; this was not contrary to the Act and the regulations. With regard to the third question, viz. whether the Leader of the Opposition at the time was given the opportunity to react, the reply was: No, the broadcast lectures by Ministers and others were not of a political nature, but merely informative and educational as regards the work of the various departments of State. I could quote other questions in this regard too, but the fact of the matter is that the then Minister said that this kind of thing was not in conflict with the spirit of the Broadcasting Act. But why do those hon. members come here year after year and create the impression that this Government is allowing the SABC to portray a one-sided image to the world? This is not true, after all, and they ought to know that it is not true. But I do not want to discuss this matter any further this evening. I want to raise a few matters with the hon. the Minister which, in my opinion, are of very great importance to us.

One of the first matters to which I should like to refer is the role of the Press in South Africa. Now I am not going to talk about the newspapers as such, except just to draw attention to the fact that the newspapers in this country have a very important function to perform, a function concerning the broadening of our culture. In order to demonstrate their scope, I just want to show you, by way of a single example, how broad that scope in fact is. In Johannesburg, there is an Afrikaans morning paper and an Afrikaans afternoon paper with a combined readership of 700 000 per day. There is an English-language afternoon paper with a readership of ½ million per day. If, then, one considers the number of people reached by the newspapers in this way, then I say that it is a fact that the newspapers have a vital function to perform in respect, too, of the propagation of our culture. There are some newspapers that have separate art sections, but I do not think this is enough. I think it is correct to say that every word written in the newspaper can either promote or be to the detriment of culture in South Africa. Because the role they play is so important, I think that it is time for recognition to be given, in tangible form, to the contribution they are making, and making every day, in respect of this matter. I want to recommend that the hon. the Minister considers instituting a cultural prize which could possibly be linked to the name of the late Dr. D. F. Malan, who would have been 100 years old this year, or to the name of the State President. A cultural prize of this kind could be awarded to an Afrikaans-language and an English-language newspaper on an annual basis with a view to the promotion of the various cultures in South Africa. The prize could be awarded to the newspapers that had done the most in that respect. However, it should not merely be an award in the form of a document or whatever one might want to call it. I believe that the document should be accompanied by a sum of money that could be utilized by the newspaper to provide the journalist attached to the newspaper who had done the best work in this respect, with the opportunity to broaden and extend his knowledge and insight by means of an overseas study tour or to supplement his knowledge in other ways, which he could then utilize to the greater benefit of this matter. I realize that a number of practical problems could arise in respect of the method of adjudication employed, but I nevertheless believe that the newspapers, with the responsibility they have always displayed, in co-operation with the HSRC, for example, could determine annually which newspaper ought to be the winner. I believe that if we think along these lines, we could make a very important cultural contribution to the benefit of our people.

There are a few other matters to which I also want to refer. I did not mention them at the start of my speech because I was afraid that time would catch up with me, but I want to ask the hon. the Minister how far the Springs technical college has progressed and when it can be occupied. [Interjections.]

I now come to the annual report from which I note, under the heading “Literary Competitions”, that the department organized a competition during 1972 and that a first prize of R600 was awarded in the Afrikaans section. I note, too, that there were only 29 entries in both the Afrikaans and the English sections. I want to ask the hon. the Minister whether consideration could not be given to increasing the prize money of R600. I believe that if more prize money were involved in such a competition, this could perhaps serve to encourage more of our authors to take part in the competition. We all greatly appreciate the fact that this competition is organized regularly. I believe that this the pattern that must be followed in the future, too, and perhaps at a faster rate.

I also want to refer to the fact that ten authors were invited to write a synopsis each for a film in return for a fee of R200. This is a brilliant idea for which the hon. the Minister and his department should be heartily congratulated, but in my opinion the amount of R200 is very meagre. To write a synopsis for a film means that the scenario must be thought out, and that in itself is a substantial task. In this respect too I want to ask that consideration be given to increasing the fee paid. As far as financial support for South African writers is concerned, we see that books for an amount of R2 667 have been purchased, inter alia, for distribution among our overseas missions. I just want to say that we welcome this whole-heartedly, but I do think that it is a pity that the work being done in this field is so modest in scope. I do not want to be constantly asking for more, but in order to make this matter really worthwhile, I think we should do it in such a way as to grip the imagination. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, as a former newspaper-man I find the idea expressed by the hon. member for Springs concerning a cultural prize for newspaper writers a stimulating one, and I am sure that it will be considered by the Minister. I only hope that after the passing of certain legislation, which I do not want to mention now, there will be enough creative power left for writers to give expression to it. I should like to discuss a different matter, and since the quotations are in English, hon. members will pardon me if I speak English.

†I want to deal very briefly with the propaganda department of the S.A. Broadcasting Corporation. This is not a department which one will find listed in any official or unofficial publication of the SABC, but of its existence, a kind of hooded existence, there can really be no doubt. I want to start off by saying, and I hope that I can say this on behalf of everybody in South Africa who has any kind of sense of fair dealing, that the recent series of programmes on student activism in this country were the worst example of one-sided broadcasting that I have ever heard. Don’t let us be misunderstood on this subject. Whatever one may say of the student activity under discussion, I should like to say that simple, common decency would suggest that those who are vilified and attacked should at least be given some opportunity of refutation or of reply, I say that without giving them that opportunity, this series was an indefensible abuse by a monopolistic medium of mass communication which should shame every decent South African. We should not have been surprised at this one-sidedness in the light of the notorious “Current Affairs” programme which has now euphemistically been renamed “The Daily Editorial”. The history of this five-minute agony is far too well known or too notorious to bear repetition, but I am only bringing it up because in the annual report of the SABC for 1973, the following absolutely astonishing claim is made for this propaganda feature. I quote:

I have absolutely no hesitation in labelling that as the most hilarious statement of the year, in fact the most hilarious statement of any year that I can think of. I think that the person who wrote it was so unsure of its accuracy that he repeated it. In discussing those commentaries written by the “Current Affairs” department we are again told of a striving, “to act in a way which transcends party political divisions.” All I can say is that the SABC’s idea of party political divisions is totally at variance with that of anybody I know. That is perhaps why it had to repeat this ridiculous statement.

Let us come to these “news commentaries”. Let me say quite frankly that some of them are good, but often, I am afraid, they are a kind of poor man’s “Current Affairs”. They are said to be “marginal notes on the running news”. I would suggest that they are running notes on the marginal news. Far too often the SABC’s unmistakable ideology shows only too blatantly. Perhaps it would be more true to say that all too often these commentaries are full of what a South African the other day described as “an objective slant”. I suggest that the SABC has made this famous by its comment department which is a euphemism for its propaganda arm.

Anyway, let me say a few words about this nightly horror we have to listen to at five past six. In spite of constant protestations by the ghost voice to the contrary—I call it a ghost voice and will explain why in a moment—this is establishment propaganda pure and simple. Often, I am sure, it even goes far beyond what the establishment would like. What is the establishment other than the Nationalist Party in office? Why the pretext that it is not? The only conclusion I can come to is that the arguments are often so embarrassing that nobody would even try to defend them. That I can well understand. In fact, when my blood pressure allows it, I can often sympathize with the establishment at having to be defended or justified in terms as extravagant as this propaganda arm uses.

I have in front of me a few examples of “Current Affairs” texts and they prove a number of things. Let me quote from a few of them. I have here a text delivered shortly after the banning of Kennis van die Aand. “Current Affairs” regarded it as a solemn obligation to defend this action. That night we had all this dreary drivel about the false and valid criteria in coming to “a measured conclusion”. Mr. Chairman, I ask you! You can hear that sepulchral voice talking about “a measured conclusion”.

What does the court say?

This has nothing to do with the court. [Interjections.] I am now discussing “Current Affairs”.

†Then there was an attack on a Sunday newspaper in which again the SABC was simply echoing current establishment criticism. My point is that these attacks could be justified if they gave anybody they attacked the opportunity to reply. I reply to an hon. member on the other side who raised this point earlier. I will say without fear of contradiction that no decent newspaper in this country, however partisan—and that includes both language groups—would consistently deny those it criticizes or denigrates the elementary courtesy of the right of reply, but the SABC does. [Interjections.] I believe that this is totally inexcusable. This is a monopolistic situation. Every individual who is pilloried by these self-appointed guardians of South Africa’s political and other morals ought at least to be given the elementary right of reply.

Even on party political issues this ghost voice comments. I call it a ghost voice because unlike other journalists who in election time have to stand up and be counted for their opinions and who have to sign every article they write, this ghost voice goes sailing along without any kind of identification at all. What is more, that is not the only kind of immunity it seems to possess. The SABC seems to be able to quote people who are banned with an impunity that no newspaper has ever experienced in this country. Even on these kinds of issues the SABC feels that it is its obligation to rally to the side of the establishment. Take the question of the Railway Budget. The ghost voice discovered—surprise, surprise—that this Budget did not boost inflation at all. It summed up:

[Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, I do not know whom the hon. member for Parktown is upbraiding now. For years he sat behind the editorial tables of various newspapers and had the whole team on his side; throughout the war effort they had the radio on their side. What is he complaining about now? After all, he knows the history.

Now he is against the courts as well.

When one looks at the activities of the Department of National Education one is struck by the wide-ranging activities of this department, activities which may be divided into two main categories, education and the promotion of culture. It is no mere chance that the SABC happens to fall under this particular hon. Minister who is concerned with the promotion of culture.

However, the SABC has a much wider task than merely promoting the White culture, which is the task of the hon. the Minister. The SABC must serve all population groups. I think we should perhaps take a brief look tonight at the very comprehensive service rendered by the SABC, but particularly at the service it renders to the Black peoples of South Africa. The difference between the SABC and the former editor of a newspaper, the member for Parktown, is this: The SABC understands the premise which lies at the root of separate development, namely that South Africa is multi-national and therefore consists of a variety of peoples—but the hon. member for Parktown knows the story and now he is leaving the Chamber—each possessing a unique nature and unique characteristics; i.e. its own culture, its own traditional heritage and language. The language of the Black man forms the bridge between him and the White man in South Africa.

The SABC realizes, too, that separate development is not only aimed at protecting and preserving those things that form part of the heritage of those people, but it realizes that it has a further task of promoting their culture as well. For that reason culture is being promoted among the Black people as well. It is in this respect that the SABC is playing such an important part, in increasing the cultural awareness of the Bantu. With this the Progressive Party does not agree at all. We read that in their documents. [Interjections.] No, we shall argue this particular point with them in another debate. For the moment I am just making this statement. They do not agree with it, and that has been said and written by their hon. Leader on several occasions. We shall come to it later. I think we should just look at this particular service which is being provided by the SABC.

Through its radio network the SABC reaches 99,4% of all South African Bantu. It reaches them in their own language through seven different Bantu services on which there is regular broadcasting to the Bantu. The average daily broadcasting time amounts to more than 88 hours. 3,4 million Blacks over the age of 16 years listen to Radio Bantu every day. To that we may add another 1,1 million Bantu school-children who also listen to Radio Bantu—a total of 4,5 million Bantu, therefore, who listen to Radio Bantu every day. [Interjections.]

Pay attention to me now. What is even more important to us, and what is important to the hon. member who cannot keep quiet as well, is that 57% of the Bantu who listen to this service are younger than 35 years. Therefore Radio Bantu is talking to the younger Bantu in South Africa. Its news service is another important service provided by Radio Bantu. Seventy news bulletins are presented every day, 56 in seven different Bantu languages in South Africa and 14 in four different languages for the Native community in South-West Africa. One can see that we are disseminating the policy of separate development amongst these people. We tell them … [Interjections.] We are not ashamed of it and we do not deny it. One must take into consideration the fact that the vast majority of these Bantu do not have a single other news medium which brings the world news to them every day in their own language. This is not only news from South Africa, but news from Southern Africa and from the rest of the world as well. So we realize the important role that Radio Bantu is fulfilling. What is of greater value to the promotion of culture than to inform people of what is going on around them, and more important still, to convey to them a message from the peoples with a more highly developed culture?

The SABC performs another important task, and that is talking to Africa. For 19 hours every day Radio South Africa talks to Africa. There are various targets; broadcasting is done in Afrikaans, English, French, Portuguese, Swahili, CiChewa and Lozie. And these broadcasts are not confined to conveying the politics of separate development. It may be difficult for us to form an idea of the broadcasts, since we do not know all those languages. I want to quote from the SABC’s report, and then hon. members may try to prove the contrary if they like. In its annual report, on page 62, the following is stated—

The SABC could confirm the reaction of Africa when there were tensions in Portugal and in our neighbouring states, how Africa depended on Radio RSA for reliable, factual, accurate and objective news on what was going on in Portugal and in our neighbouring states.

What kind of reaction do we get from these people? We get an interesting reaction. Some of the cultural programmes that are broadcast have elicited such a response that during the past year 833 original new works in the form of serials, radio plays, legends, songs, etc., came from the Bantu themselves. These works were sent to the SABC so that the Bantu could give something back to their own people. There is no question of cheap politics here. This had nothing to do with what some non-White or Bantu leader may have said … [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, I sincerely trust that the hon. member for Westdene will not take it amiss if I do not react to him, because I feel that all good-natured, loving “SAPPE” like myself should never interfere in a good scrap between a Nationalist and a Progressive. In any event, I have sorted out my problems with the SABC; it is quite simple—you just listen either to Radio Good Hope when you are down in Cape Town or Radio Port Natal when you are back in Durban and forget about the rest! When you do that, you can quite enjoy it. This is not the purpose, however, of my rising this evening, because I want to address the House on television.

Television is known in many parts of the world as the “goggle box” and believe you me, Sir. I am an addict. One can get square eyes very easily from becoming an addict. It is a medium of entertainment and it can be a medium of education. It could be used as a medium of education inside and outside the class-room; it can be used as a medium of education not only for children, but also for adults, and it can be used as a medium of entertainment for all ages, all classes, all races and all creeds.

Even for Nationalists?

Yes, even for Nationalists. I sincerely hope that the hon. the Minister will ensure that we shall only get the highest possible standard of programmes put across our television service and please no “Current Affairs” or anything like it. Good news and news well-presented on television is something to behold. Unbiased and unslanted news presented factually is really something to see. I know that that which I have seen in other countries of the world, particularly in Great Britain, has been most enjoyable and there has been no bias in it whatsoever. I do not think that we need fear in this country that we are going to have problems in so far as it concerns the quality of our television, because I think we do not have to look further than our film industry to know that what is being done in South Africa in the field of filming is of the highest order. I should like to commend to hon. members of this House films which have been made for Satour over the years. I do not think that there is any other country in the world which produces films of a similar class and there is no reason why we should not be able to introduce this on our television services. The proof of the pudding, one says, is always in the eating. Approximately two and a half to three months ago I was in Torquay in the south of England, We stayed in a magnificent hotel there with, I fear, only black and white television in the bedrooms. [Interjections.] Naughty! Downstairs, however, they had TV-rooms. In the one room you could view BBC 1 and in the other you could view BBC 2 on the most enormous colour television sets I have ever seen. An announcement was made that they would be broadcasting excerpts of the Port Elizabeth test match, the Springboks vs. the Lions, at 11 o’clock that night. We stayed up in order to watch. We already knew all about the result of the match. The television programme did not give only excerpts of this match. We got a full hour of television at its best. I can only say that the camera techniques were superb. There we had it: Port Elizabeth, the Lions vs. the Books, blow by blow. It was absolutely magnificent. You know, Sir, the zoom camera was used with tremendous effect and the parabolic microphones were there as well. Not only could you hear the thuds, grunts and the groans but you could also almost hear the swishes of the misses when they did not quite connect. My disappointment at the result of the match was compensated for when, at the end of the programme, before my eyes across the screen came the words: “This programme was televised and produced by the South African Broadcasting Corporation.” I, as a South African, had to go to Torquay in England to see my first South African Broadcasting Corporation television programme!

I firmly believe that our South African way of life and our insatiable thirst for knowledge, our love of sport and our enjoyment of top quality entertainment, are all things which a properly conducted and controlled TV service will enable us to enjoy. I also believe that since television, at this point in time, falls within the ambit of the hon. the Minister of National Education he should make overtures to his colleagues in the Cabinet who also have influence in this sphere. I am referring here to the question of costs, costs to the Piet van der Merwes and the John Smiths, costs to the Coloured, Indian and Bantu communities. It would appear from reports that TV sets are going to be priced right out of the buying power of John Citizen. Why should this be? Why are there these tremendous differences? If we compere the prices of motor vehicles in the United Kingdom with those in this country, we find that there is little to choose between the two. A black and white monochrome three-channel television set with an 11-inch screen costs £45-50 in England. This is between R72 and R80. An 11-inch colour three-channel set costs between £175 and £200 or between R280 and R320. Where from this R700 or R800? These prices are not just for British sets. These are sets of British, German and Japanese origin. These prices included the value added tax of 10% which was added to the price when I was last in England, some two and a half months ago.

You are referring to the small Japanese portable sets.

No, Sir, these were not all portable Sets. These were sets that you could put in the home. I can assure you that these 11-inch screen sets are all plug-in sets. These sets did have portable aerials. I want to put this question to the hon. the Minister. What chance have our pensioners and our underprivileged people of enjoying TV? This could be a great comfort and companion to these people.

I should like to give hon. members some figures in regard to the hiring of TV sets in the United Kingdom. One can hire a 17-inch three-channel colour set for £51-72 per annum or approximately £1 per week. This works out to approximately Rl-60 per week. The black and white sets cost something like 40 cents per week to hire. Remember, these are three-channel sets and there is no installation charge. One can have an aerial installed in one’s home for £8. I have the receipts here. Here is a receipt for an aerial installation. Here is the receipt for a listener’s licence for a colour TV set. This licence costs £12 per annum and this licence I have expired in July 1974. That is the price one pays over there but here we cannot even get an answer as to what the cost of a licence is going to be. It costs £1 per month in the United Kingdom. This sounds almost too good to be true, almost Utopian.

I just want to make this point before my time runs out. Many people have entered into so-called agreements. My humble submission to the hon. the Minister is that he should introduce legislation to make those agreements absolutely null and void until such time as the man in the street and the general public know what they are going to get, know what it is going to cost them, know what their licences will cost, and know many hours of television they are going to get per week. I think that legislation should also be introduced to enable the poorer people, the pensioners and the underprivileged, to hire television sets. This can be done. We can follow Britain’s example and we can have television as a reality for all; maybe not all in colour, but monochrome television is not all that bad. I suggest that there is absolutely no reason why the Ministry, keeping an ever watchful eye as regards the tendency to exploit as opposed to the making of a reasonable profit, should not encourage companies to enter this field in order to make TV available to everybody. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, it surprises me that the hon. member for Umhlanga did not want to tell us more about his views on the functional value of the television service. However, he bickered about the price of articles that are not even available yet.

I should like to come back to a few of the views held by the hon. member for Durban Central, who expressed the opinion, inter alia, that there should be a committee for the co-ordination of education. I can assure the hon. member that where top-level symposiums or conferences have been held on the subject of education over the past few years, all departments have been represented. So there is in fact coordination of services on a high level.

As far as examinations are concerned, I may point out that Mr. Craig, of the Education Bureau of the Transvaal Education Department, visited 14 countries during 1973 and devoted six months to an intensive study of examinations and examination procedures. On his return he reported that South Africa had a successful examination system, which was, however, hampered by shortcomings. Mr. Craig also pointed out that nowhere in the world—he also visited Scotland, inter alia—a uniform examination system with uniform criteria could be found. Drawing up an examination paper is a very difficult problem and it differs from one subject to another. Let us take the following factor into account: When one considers how long it should take to read an examination paper on a subject such as biology or science or typing, the question arises of whether the time should be 10, 15 or 20 minutes. With every additional minute which is allotted, the examination hours are extended, and so, of course, is the time in which the child has to concentrate. I may assure the hon. members that this matter is still receiving attention. I am aware, too, of experiments in the sense that examining committees may be appointed to draw up an examination paper, so that a paper will no longer be drawn up by a single examiner as in the past. Furthermore, some of our provinces have experimented by introducing the system of project schools, in which examinations were dealt with on a more internal basis. We may shortly expect a comparative result from this experiment. I may assure the hon. member for Durban Central that the hon. the Minister and his department take a great interest in these activities and are constantly conducting research in this connection.

I should like to come to a few other aspects. At the beginning of this year the Human Sciences Research Council issued a news-letter containing statistics in regard to the pass-rates of pupils and students. In it I noticed that an average of only 50% of the Std. 6 pupils in our secondary schools eventually reach matric level. In addition, it must be kept in mind that the average failure rate over the past five years has amounted to 20%.

Business interrupted in accordance with Standing Order No. 23.