Mr. Chairman, before the adjournment last night I referred to a few statistics I obtained from a newsletter published earlier this year by the Human Sciences Research Council. From this letter we were able to obtain the statistical information that only approximately 50% of our standard 6 pupils who are at present attending secondary schools progress to matriculation level. Furthermore, we gather from the letter that the average failure rate among matriculation pupils is at present 20%. Of those who pass, 10% go to university. Of the total number of students at our universities, only 4% complete baccalaureus courses within the minimum period prescribed for the relevant degree. This is an indication to us that a great deficiency exists in respect of our students at our universities, a deficiency in respect of study methods, teaching methods or motivation. We will gain nothing by hurling accusations at the schools, the examination system, the universities or anywhere else for that matter. We shall have to make a study of all the components affecting this aspect. We know that the contents of our subject matter have increased in depth and in scope. It is simply the way things are that our pupils of today have to increase their knowledge and study sciences, the names of which were not even included in dictionaries when you and I were at school. This task makes exceptional demands on the pupils, the student, and the staff in particular.

Moreover, it places a particularly high premium on teaching methods, study methods, on teaching methodology and practice in general. We are still experiencing a shortage of teachers in specific subjects, inter alia the natural sciences, mathematics and languages. In view of the recent announcement of improved salary structures, we trust that there will be a lesser degree of erosion in respect of teaching staff. However, we have to expect that there will continue to be a shortage. This tendency prevails throughout the world. In all countries we find a shortage of staff in certain subjects. Since this is an investment in the growth of our people, it will profit us to give some consideration to the task of education. One of our scholars has stated that the strength of a people is to be found nowhere else but in the characters of its sons and daughters, the characters of its men and women, and in the quality of the life they lead. It is the teaching staff who have to assist in this creative task. It is the task of these people to nurture the child from nursery school to the tertiary level.

They are also responsible for special education; they are responsible, too, for speech therapy and physiotherapy; they are responsible for vocational guidance, and for all the psychological services. They have been charged with transforming human material into useful individuals. In addition, it is their task to lead the unidentified psychopath to social adjustment. It is their task to work with these people, and, in the words of Mr. Justice Steyn in a recent court case in Bloemfontein, to treat that predator of society timeously so that he will not be a piece of driftwood washed ashore by the ocean of life. It is their task to help drug addicts restore equilibrium to their lives. We want to thank the hon. the Minister for establishing the possibility of hostels for drug addicts where we can bring these people back into our community and teach them to do a useful day’s work. It is also the task of the teacher to work with jewels, our bright students, children, with the sparkle and the ability with which the Creator endowed them.

We then come to the following aspect, i.e. our organized education. I want to say that these people are experiencing a lack of contact with our legislature. They work with great loyalty to perform their task in the provincial service and in the service of the Department of National Education. I am of the opinion that there is an urgent need for a South African teachers’ council in which the teacher would have a full measure of participation in legislation, planning, research, matters affecting professional services and in respect of disciplinary procedures affecting the teaching staff. There is also the question of conditions of service, the selection of staff, the training of staff, salary scales and promotion requirements. Such a body is a prerequisite for the peace of mind of the members of that profession. It would create a sense of partnership and pave the way to the teaching profession becoming a full-fledged profession.

Mr. Chairman, I am emphasizing these matters since it is essential for the teacher’s task, his development as a person and his love for his task, to extend beyond the four walls of his classroom. It is a special task to motivate the average person to reach new heights; to motivate the less well-endowed to accept an occupation, however humble the task may be. It is an special task to motivate the keen-witted student to render the best of his service with all the abilities at his disposal; to employ his ten talents to the full. Sir, we are pleading for a body for these people, a body which will give them full participation.

Mr. Chairman, I want to dwell for a moment on another matter. At our universities, courses are offered which extend over a period of many years. The entire climate at our universities has changed. Just think how few motor-cars there were on the campuses when we were students, and how many there are today, to mention one example. Students reach maturity at an earlier age; students get married at an earlier age. There are numerous married students at our universities, enrolled for long years of study, who have to live in expensive, small flats or in small, squalid back-rooms because no other facilities are available. We want to ask the hon. the Minister whether research cannot be carried out to see whether we cannot make married quarters available for university students. In doing so, we do not mean to make even more facilities available for loafers.

Or living together, as the United Party would like to have.

We may safely leave it in the hands of the principals to take decisions and allocate such facilities. It ought to alleviate the position of our students on our campuses considerably.

Mr. Chairman, I want to say a few words about the opportunities that are being given to students who study at our universities, and when I talk about students I mean students of all colour. I feel that in the past training has been very badly organized indeed. If after all these years in South Africa we still find ourselves in a position where we are unable to say that we have trained one Black engineer in this country, then surely something must be wrong with our planning. If we find ourselves in the position that there is only a handful of non-White dentists in this country, then surely something must be seriously wrong.

Sir, in our health services we have shortages, not so much of White doctors who provide health services for Whites and non-Whites, but shortages of non-White doctors. We are sadly failing in our duty to train non-White persons to take university courses which today are provided for Whites and sometimes for Whites only. I want to make my attitude quite clear. For the past few years I have been pleading with the various Ministers who have been in charge of this portfolio to open up the universities to give would-be professional people an opportunity to study, irrespective of their colour. Sir, I make no bones about it; if a man wants to become an engineer or a doctor, the necessary facilities ought to be provided for him at our universities, and if these facilities are not provided in the universities for Blacks, then they must be provided in the universities which are set aside for White students.

It is this bad planning in the past which has led us to the position today that in the homelands particularly they are unable to provide their own hospital services. They have to rely on medical personnel recruited from this country and engaged on a contractual basis. Sir, is that right? At this stage in our civilization where we are prepared to give independence to the homelands, we find that the homelands are unable to provide a rudimentary health service staffed by their own people. We have to provide them with staff, and we are very happy indeed to do it. Sir, why should we find that in places like Lesotho, they have to get dentists from America to come and help them, whereas just across the border we have our own people who could be trained but are not being trained to provide these services?

Who is responsible for Lesotho?

Surely we should be pleased to be able to provide them with the necessary facilities if they are unable to provide these services for themselves. We want to give help to our friends on the borders, or don’t we want to give them help? Sir, if we do want to give them help, let us be ready to do it. We have not trained our own Black people in the past to provide these services, and there is no sign that we are going to do so. We have flying visits to Lesotho by a small group of private medical practitioners, but what has the Government done about this? Sir, I want to quote some figures to show how little we have done to provide opportunities for the non-White students of our country. I want the hon. the Minister to hear this. I asked him a day or two ago how many first-year students there were at the universities which provide training facilities for non-Whites to become dentists. At the University of the Witwatersrand there are only five first-year students, and there are six in the final year. Sir, at Cape Town University how many first-year students are there studying to become doctors? There are 22. At the University of the Witwatersrand there are 18, and at Natal there are 139.

And in the final year?

Here are the final-year figures: 28 at Cape Town, 13 at Wits, and only 75 at Natal, and Natal is the university that has been set aside to provide Black doctors for the whole country. Sir, I say the position is absolutely ridiculous. What the Minister should do immediately is to open up the White universities to Black students who wish to study medicine. We cannot afford to wait any longer; this must be done now. Sir, take the position on the Witwatersrand where we have the Baragwanath Hospital. This is a hospital for Blacks and yet a Black man cannot study to become a doctor at Baragwanath Hospital; he has to go to Natal. What does it cost a Black man to send his son to Natal to study?

What does it cost the State?

The hon. member asks what it costs the State. Sir, would it not be better for the Black man living in Soweto to go and study at the Baragwanath Hospital? Why should he have to go to Natal? Why should I as a White man have to go to Natal if I find the Witwatersrand University or the Cape Town University more convenient? Why must I be forced to go to one particular university? Is there any reason for it? No, Sir, the only reason is this Government’s policy of separation of our people; that is the crazy pattern that we have today, and we must put a stop to it.

It is differentiation!

We should allow Black students to attend the Witwatersrand University. The Johannesburg Hospital will soon be evacuated. Is it going to stand there as a skeleton without beds in it? Why cannot Black students be accepted into that hospital? Why cannot Black students be allowed to go and practise there? We have over a million Black people living in Soweto. Do you mean to tell me, Sir, that amongst those 1 million Black people you could not be able to find 100 or 200 men and women who would like to become doctors? What has the Minister done about this? Nothing at all. I say the time has come when he should not only open the universities to these people and allow them to make use of the Johannesburg General Hospital, but he must go out of his way to make sure that he can get Black students to go there; and they can only go there if they get sufficient bursaries and scholarships. I would appeal to him to make appeals to the business people and to the large industrial concerns to rally round and to make contributions to a fund, so that these people can at least be given an opportunity of making application for admission to these universities. In Durban we have a university which caters only for Black students. Why cannot the Durban White students who want to go to a university be allowed to go there as well? Why should they have to go to other universities if they are living in Durban? Is there any reason for that? I would say that it is already late but there is still a chance for the Minister to alleviate what could easily become a crisis situation in our country. But then he must start now to alleviate it and he can only do it by producing more students and giving them the opportunity to go to those universities which are willing to take them. If Wits wants to take them, well and good; if Cape Town wants to take them, well and good; if Pretoria does not want to take them, well and good. That is according to their autonomy, but we must start opening up the universities immediately.

The hon. member for Rosettenville will not take it amiss of me if I do not react to what he said here. I think the hon. the Minister will no doubt furnish an adequate reply to what he said here this afternoon.

Sir, the thorough academic training of teachers at institutions which are thoroughly equipped for that role, is of primary and cardinal importance. I do not want to draw attention to that today, for we all accept it. This afternoon, however, I do want to draw your attention for a brief moment, Sir, to other qualities and abilities a teacher has to possess if he should want to embark upon a teaching career. I maintain, in the first place, that it is very important for him to undergo the best academic training. We will all agree with that, nevertheless I really believe that one of the greatest problems we have to contend with nowadays, is that too high a premium is perhaps being placed on academic training or the acquisition of knowledge. In fact, we so often find in common practice that the teacher is prepared to test his pupil purely on the strength of how many A’s he achieved in his examination, or what his average percentage was. This afternoon I want to state, however, that education in the true sense of the word embraces far more than the mere acquisition knowledge and because this is the case, I should like to bring this matter to your attention.

In the first place, it is very clear that the male and female teacher has to be a source of inspiration through his or her personality. The teacher can convey nothing more than he himself in fact is. One cannot detach oneself from one’s outlook on life and the world, and from the nature of the case it is also very clear that, in performing his daily task, the teacher cannot detach himself either from what he has to convey to those who have been entrusted to his care. When I refer to our Education Act, we find that Act No. 39 of 1967 very clearly provides that our education has to bear a Christian and a national character. In view of the fact that the teacher cannot detach himself from what he is, it follows logically, in my opinion, that it is unthinkable that we can accept a male or female teacher in education today who is indifferent to religion, in other words, we cannot allow a non-professing Christian to enter the teaching profession to make a neutral contribution in respect of religion to the children who have been entrusted to his or her care. But what is more, also on the grounds of the national character education has to bear, it is very clear that, on the basis of my first premise, the teacher in the Republic of South Africa, as well as in any other country in fact, must be devoted to what is his own—his country and his people—and for that reason he also has to be steeped in a love for the country which the Creator has given him. This will also promote and shape his own outlook on life and the world, which he will then convey to the children in the same manner.

But it is also important for the teacher to be capable of resisting the onslaughts coming from outside, the ideologies which are foreign to our people, of which we are all aware. It is also very clear that if he himself is not capable of offering resistance, he will not be able to make those who have been entrusted to his care capable of doing so. It is a known fact that our teaching corps is performing a national task. They are the people who are producing the leaders of tomorrow. In fact, the Russians, too, maintain that the most important institution in respect of the shaping of a people is the teachers’ corps. It is they who determine the future course of a people. Having drawn attention to this, it follows that these people are vested with an enormous responsibility. Since this is so, I want to plead with the hon. the Minister this afternoon to give attention to the selection of teachers. I am aware that they are in fact being selected as far as academic knowledge is concerned, and that the training is very purposeful. But it is also important for machinery to be established to select future male and female teachers on the basis of my argument; perhaps with the aid of the principal who knows these aspirant teachers very well, as well as the regional inspector concerned.

Selection is therefore essential in my opinion, but it will be of no avail if those aspirant teachers are selected while their training does not embrace the necessary requirements for selection. Therefore it is necessary, in the training process of the teacher, for more than the cardinal academic knowledge to be instilled. In his training he should be made resilient in respect of the academicside, but also in respect of sport—since this, too, is an important part of the work which he as a teacher has to perform—and in respect of culture. It is a fact that the male or female teacher is asked to take the lead in the local community in respect of cultural matters. During their training, therefore, they should also be equipped for this role.

I want to tell you, Sir, that it may cause problems when a male or female teacher comes straight from a university and finds him or herself in a mature society where he or she immediately has to adjust and where he or she immediately has to acquire a mature social personality. It is a fact that while they are at school they are in a protected environment where they are afforded an opportunity to develop. Subsequently they find themselves at a university where an exceptional degree of freedom is offered them. But it is important that this transition to total freedom should take place gradually. In my opinion, the training period of the teacher as such, in which his professional training only lasts one year, is too short to equip the future teacher fully for the demands of public life. I therefore want to suggest and ask the hon. the Minister whether it is not possible for the training of the teacher be integrated with his university training. The teacher normally takes a period of three years—I am speaking of secondary education now—to complete his degree. If the professional training, too, could take place during that period, there would be a longer period in which the teacher would be afforded an opportunity to be made resilient in respect of the social demands which are going to be made on him.

Sir, it is also very important, in this entire process of gradual release and development towards independent responsibility, and towards responsible action, for the maintenance and acceptance of authority to be acknowledge. We are all aware of a permissive spirit prevailing in the world, which has turned its back on authority. I believe that the purpose of the teacher’s training ought to be, inter alia, to train children mentally and spiritually so that they may be led to total integration with a life wherein order, peace and calm are maintained. It does seem as if the upbringing provided for a child by both the Western parent and the educational institutions has unfortunately been unable to succeed in preventing large numbers of our youth from breaking their ties with national traditions and revolting against the authority of the parent and that of the establishment. I do not mean to suggest by this that the youth are lost and do not accept authority in any form. But it is a fact that the youth should be made resilient to and given assistance in warding off the attacks which are launched on them. The institutions who have to assist the youth in doing so, are most certainly the parental home in the first place and education in the second place. When we speak about education, it is up to the male or female teacher concerned to perform this duty. If such a person himself does not accept authority, I cannot see that he can impose authority on the child. For that reason I am pleading for the teacher, through his training, to be brought to acknowledge authority as one of the most cardinal requirements in every person’s life.

Mr. Chairman, I am not going to follow up the hon. member who has just resumed his seat as far as his line of thought is concerned, which he put in such a striking manner, but I am going to confine myself to the activities of the General Cultural Advancement sub-division which is incorporated in the Specialized Cultural Services division. In order to perform its functions efficiently, this division was decentralized into seven regional offices under the control of a regional director of cultural affairs and nine sub-offices. It is neither the task of these officers to initiate new cultural activities, nor to establish new cultural societies, but to serve as links and seek co-operation with voluntary cultural societies in the community. They counsel and advise the organizations on the planning and presentation of programmes and, furthermore, assist in presenting projects so as to promote the cultural life of the community. Ambitious projects can be tackled with the assistance of the Department of National Education to the benefit and enrichment of the entire community. In the annual report of the Department of National Education—incidentally. I want to congratulate the hon. the Minister and his officers on it—I read about the phenomenal growth and impressive achievements of this division. Its activities cover all the facets and spheres of the cultural life of the people. I am not going to burden hon. members by indicating its achievements by means of figures, but I shall content myself by referring only to what has been done in promoting the plastic arts. Thirty-four projects were launched in co-operation with voluntary societies. Selected works of more than 70 artists were exhibited for a total of 169 days and were seen by more than 12 000 people. The same pattern of activity is also revealed in the spheres of the human sciences, family education, the natural sciences and music. The finest and most fruitful services rendered by the division are, however, in those spheres which affect our youth. One hundred and forty camps and courses, lasting 4,3 days at a time on the average and attended by close on 15 000 young people, were conducted in collaboration with voluntary societies. The courses cover a wide range, but the most important are the leadership courses which are offered by this division in co-operation with voluntary societies. These leadership courses are mainly intended for head boys and girls, prefects and the class leaders of our high schools. Naturally, the courses are orientated towards practical situations. During these courses our pupils are confronted with the real problem situations which they will encounter in day-to-day living. I personally can testify to the inestimable value of these courses in leading our young leaders to the full development and realization of their leadership potential. It is quite an experience to hear the children who attend these courses testifying to the value these courses have for them. In this way I want to express my thanks to the people who are prepared, sometimes at great personal sacrifice, to lead these courses.

The biggest problem experienced in respect of these courses for our youth, is in connection with accommodating the young people who attend the courses. I want to convey my thanks to the school principals and school committees who put their schools and hostels at the disposal of these young people. However, it is a great pity that during the period covered by the report, no fewer that 100 such courses, in which 15 000 young people were involved, had to be cancelled as a result of a lack of accommodation. Of course, ideally these courses should be held at camping sites situated in rural surroundings. The department is constantly trying to find new camping sites and is endeavouring to develop the available sites as quickly as possible into fully residential camping sites. If is borne in mind that the need for camping sites is directly related to our urban growth and development, I, by means of this speech and further to the plea made by the hon. member for Standerton, want to make an urgent appeal to individuals and local authorities to give serious consideration to offering more sites. It is with much gratitude that I want to mention the seven fully developed residential camping sites of which four are situated in the Northern Transvaal, one in the Western Cape, one in the Orange Free State and one in Natal. I want to plead for more funds to be appropriated for the development of the five available sites which are only partly developed and the seven others, which are not developed at all, into fully residential camping sites. We may not, through the lack of residential camping sites, deny our youth the privilege of attending courses which are so enriching and contribute so much towards forming their personalities.

Mr. Chairman, I would like to speak on the subject of universities. In particular I would like to speak, initially, about the question of university finances. It is of course gratifying that in many respects there is a larger sum of money available for universities in this appropriation than before even though in individual cases, as for example in respect of Vote P, there have been certain reductions. It is quite clear, however, that overall there is more money available to universities. A very real problem however still exists in universities in respect of their finances. In this regard I think I should like to echo the remarks that were made earlier from this side of the House to the effect that there is a great urgency that we should be informed of what, the recommendations of the Van Wyk De Vries Commission are. I think it is not out of place to say that when a commission was announced as far back as May 1968 and appointed in November 1968, with an interim report having been issued in 1972, we should have known after a period of almost six years what in fact the proposed recommendations are to be in respect of so many various matters. Particularly as far as the finances of the university are concerned, there is a very real problem. I can speak with some degree of personal experience here about the fact that there are universities at present moment which even have to look to the number of books that can be purchased for their libraries because of the problem arising from finance. I think this is a matter which does require very urgent attention and with all seriousness I think it is necessary that an urgent statement on this issue should be made to the House. There is a further matter while I am dealing with university education, i.e. what I would like to call the problem of the middle classes. I am speaking here of the middle-class individual who wants to educate his children, who would like his children to attend a university and whose children are bright enough to attend a university but not brilliant enough to obtain a scholarship or a bursary. This is a very real problem. These people represent the backbone of the professional people who are trained in South Africa. The world does not consist only of brilliant people who can obtain scholarships or bursaries. The world also consists of ordinary people who play their part, who go to university, who do not necessarily get first-class passes but who make a very real contribution to society nevertheless. It is these people who are hit hardest by the ever-increasing fees for university attendance and the ever-increasing costs, while attending university, of accommodation, books, equipment and matters of this sort. It is the middle-class person, who constitutes the backbone of society, who is hardest hit in this inflationary age when it comes to educating his children. I have said before that there should be tax concessions in respect of money spent on educating one’s children. This is perhaps not the moment to go into this in detail. However, if we believe in equality of opportunity in South Africa, then we must provide equality of opportunity and not prevent people from being educated to the fullest extent of their capacity. I would like to say to the hon. the Minister that I think it may be necessary to look at providing free education at all levels, so that it is not only a privilege of the rich to have the fullest possible education. I believe that everyone is entitled to equality of opportunity. I believe that everyone is entitled to be educated to the fullest extent of his capacity. I do not believe that wealth should, in this day and age, be a barrier to this.

I also want to refer to the question of university autonomy, a very important matter. Here again I want to refer to the Van Wyk De Vries commission and the need to have this report tabled. Perhaps one might also refer here to the threat to university autonomy which is sometimes voiced by such people as the present Minister of Economic Affairs at a time when he had not yet attained his present office. He said that university councils might well find themselves in a position, like the universities in America, where their subsidies could be withheld unless they did certain things. We on this side of the House stand for the autonomy of the universities of South Africa. We shall stand for the right of properly constituted university councils to look after universities. We believe that university autonomy is an essential of a demoracratic society. Part of university autonomy is also the right to decide who should be allowed to go to a university. With great respect, I speak here, as is well known, as a person who is also, in another capacity, a member of the council of a university. I believe that it is for that university to decide who should attend that university and not for the Government to make that decision. I believe that in South Africa too much choice is being done away with. There is too much enforcement of separation on the grounds of colour. It is that enforcement of separation on the grounds of colour that causes the isolation and the polarization which is taking place in South Africa. If we are to understand each other, we must meet each other and talk to each other. If hon. members want to quarrel on this issue, may I suggest that they read the report in respect of the university of the Western Cape, which was tabled only a very short while ago. They will see there that polarization is caused by the inability of people to get together and to communicate. I want to say that we on this side of the House are opposed to compulsory separation, just as much as we are opposed to enforced integration. What South Africa needs is more freedom of choice, and especially more freedom of choice of association. I believe that if we allowed people to be together at universities, if we allowed them, in fact, to understand each other, we would be creating a better society. This is dialogue in a meaningful sense of the word, when people can get together at an intellectual level. I cannot understand why, when we do not want to force a university to take people of all colours in, we do not, in the same breath, allow universities that want to have people of all colours to have them there, so that they can understand each other and decide to go about the creation of a society in which people can work together and understand each other.

I want, also, if I may, to refer to the student body. It is not just a question of a sword of Damocles that is hanging over the student body of South Africa; there are several swords hanging over their heads. The Van Wyk De Vries Commission is one of them. One of the terms of reference of the Van Wyk de Vries Commission, the seventh one, was—

What in fact is going to be put before us? What does the Minister say about these things? What is the future of students going to be? What part are the university councils going to have to play? What really is going to be done in regard to this matter?

There are other unanswered questions on the matter of the students. The reports of the Schlebush Commission dealt with such matters as centre affiliation and political parties on the campuses. I want to say to the hon. the Minister today that we on this side of the House do not believe that there should be legislation in regard to these matters. The universities should be allowed to put their own house in order, if it needs to be put in order … Sir, even though I am on record as having said repeatedly that I believe that political parties should be allowed to function on the campuses, that is a matter for students and for the university councils, and not for legislation. I would like to have an answer from the hon. the Minister on that question today. As regards centre affiliation, I have for years, from the days that I was a student at Witwatersrand University, believed that there should not be centre affiliation. Each person should decide for himself what organization he should belong to. But in the same breath, I do not think it is for the Government to poke its nose into that matter. It is a matter for the student body and for the university authorities. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, I think it is time the hon. members of the Opposition realized that this National Party is in power and that the policy of this National Party is one of separate development, not only in respect of political development but also in the sphere of education. It is for that reason, too, that we created universities of their own for the non-Whites. The hon. member for Yeoville spoke here about the autonomy of the universities. He said they should be able to admit whom they wished. I know whom he has in mind. He has the idlers, the liberalists and the agitators in mind; they are the people who should be admitted. When they speak about the autonomy of the universities, they want men and women to live together in the same residences. This is their idea of the autonomy of the universities. When any accusation comes from the opposite side with regard to what this Government is doing for education, it issues from a feeling of guilt among the United Party. I am thinking of what this Government has done for non-White education alone. In the United Party’s time they left it to the churches. They did nothing in respect of the education of the non-Whites. When we look at the appropriation for universities, we notice that an amount of R107½ million has been voted for them. This is in respect of financial assistance to the universities. We should very much like to do more, but one has to cut one’s coat according to one’s cloth.

I should like to come back to the hon. member for Durban Central. He was the chief spokesman on that side on this Vote. He launched an attack on the SABC by stating that certain persons had been attacked in SABC programmes and that those persons had not been afforded an opportunity to defend themselves. Now, if it is such a terrible crime that those people did not have an opportunity to defend themselves, he himself committed the same offence last night. He launched an unfair attack on Dr. Piet Meyer, who does not have an opportunity to defend himself in this House. [Interjections.] As usual the hon. member followed the example of Mr. Etienne Malan and saw fit to drag the Broederbond into this debate again. I can assure the hon. member that actions of this kind will not get him very far. What I do know and what I find regrettable, is that the United Party always use the few Afrikaans-speaking members in their ranks to launch attacks on Afrikaans organizations. [Interjections.]

I should like to avail myself of this opportunity to convey our heartiest congratulations to the SABC on its 50th anniversary. It is with appreciation that I say that we have one of the best broadcasting services, a service of which every one of our population groups may be proud. We are happy with the service they provide for us. Moreover, not only are we proud of the fine service they render, but we are also thankful for the enormous task they perform in respect of religion, culture, education, sport, etc. It is a service from which everyone in the community can derive profit.

As far as the proposed introduction of a television service is concerned, I also want to congratulate the SABC, on behalf of our side of the House, on the progress which has been made with the planning in respect of buildings, equipment, staff, programmes, etc. Of course, it is characteristic of the National Government that when it tackles something, it plans thoroughly so as to give only the best to its people here in South Africa. In pursuance of the United Party’s story that we have delayed the introduction of a television service for such a long time, I recall a National Party candidate’s conference just before the 1966 election in Pretoria. On this occasion none other than Mr. Jaap Marais, now of the HNP, asked the late Dr. Verwoerd, “Doctor, what must we tell the people with reference to the United Party’s propaganda campaign ‘For TV, vote UP’?” I recall very well that Dr. Verwoerd replied, “Tell the people there are more urgent things at present, things such as a second Iscor, which have to enjoy priority. Tell the people we are still experimenting with colour television and we want to obtain only the best for South Africa”. In this way, too, this National Government has determined its priorities by first establishing the other essential services and not haphazardly introducing a television service. Not only was it planned to give only the best to South Africa, but also to provide a service which may compare with the best in the world. As far as the programming division is concerned, we know that a great deal is already being done in the line of accumulating programmes so that a sufficient quantity may be available when transmission begins. In order to provide in the necessary needs, we can understand that we shall, to a large extent, be dependent on foreign programmes which will be provided with Afrikaans and English sound tracks. But, Sir, there is one aspect which causes all of us concern, and that is that the SABC is apparently battling to obtain sufficient Afrikaans scripts which comply with the programme requirements. Sir, this is understandable on account of the fact that there are few Afrikaans writers who have the necessary knowledge of television, and on account of the fact that the intention is to use programmes of only the best quality. This problem will probably not exist for the English-speaking section of the population, since it will be possible, to a large extent, to provide for their needs from abroad. We know that certain scripts will be translated into Afrikaans and that certain programmes will be provided with Afrikaans sound tracks, to provide for the needs of the Afrikaans-speaking people, and this might be a good alternative, too, but to me the threat this poses is not only that we shall be suppressing the potential of our Afrikaans script-writers, but also that we shall be dealing with material which is foreign to our people. For that reason I should like to suggest to the hon. the Minister, in the light of the problems I have mentioned and the fact that a field is lying fallow here for our Afrikaans writers, that a competition with fine prizes be arranged to encourage our writers to enter this new field and accept the challenge of offering us scripts with South African themes. Perhaps it will also be a good thing if some of the manufacturers of television-sets, who will derive great benefit from the introduction of this service, would allow their thoughts to go in this direction.

Mr. Chairman, pursuant to what the hon. member for Boksburg said, I should like to make a few remarks in connection with things the hon. members for Parktown and Durban Central said here last night. Sir, the hon. member for Parktown hurled terms such as “propaganda department”, “five minutes of agony”, and others, about. He kept us amused for ten minutes with his eloquence.

He also mentioned ghosts.

After we had listened to his speech, we arrived once again at the one and only conclusion, which is that in the midst of all the dust he kicked up here about “Current Affairs”, and other commentary programmes of the SABC, there was not one item of concrete proof to substantiate anything he had said here. Sir, this is quite typical of hon. members on that side of the House and of the Opposition Press. Since “Current Affairs” came on the air, there have been charges of this nature ad nauseam, but so far no one has ever really been able to lay a finger on a blatant untruth or a blatant distortion of facts which could convince one that these people had a case. As a former newspaper editor he ought to know that, in the same way as every individual has a particular standpoint in regard to certain things, and every individual observes something in his own way, this, too, is true of a group of people. In this way he, too, in his newspaper passed those reports which fitted in with the policy standpoint of the newspaper of which he was chief editor. Now, if we speak about policy standpoints, and he accuses the SABC of being a propaganda mouthpiece for the National Party, he must be able to prove this, for I think there is a misconception in South Africa in respect of the dividing line between what is in the interests of the National Party and what is in fact in the interests of the country as a whole. Uninformed people often cannot distinguish those fine nuances between these two matters. If it is the case that the objectives of the party on this side of the House are in such close agreement with will of the people that one can barely differentiate between them, the fault certainly does not lie with this side of the House, but with the uninformed critics. If we want to debate about the SABC we have to debate about the right of interpretation; we should not debate about other things. You know, it is like a tree. We can debate about this or that leaf which is not beautiful. But let us leave these trivial matters aside. The SABC, too, is fallible. “Current Affairs” is written by people. They, too, might have a wrong interpretation—I do not say they have—but let us speak in human terms. Now, if we want to debate, we must debate on the root of the matter, on the stem. We must discuss the right the SABC has to be able and be permitted to interpret news. I shall say more about that later.

The hon. members speak of “five minutes of agony”. No one is compelled to listen to it. I want to say that the latest surveys indicate that more than one million people listen to “Sake van die Dag” and “Current Affairs” daily. [Interjections.] But that is not necessarily important. What is important, is that the composition of those million listeners is in the same proportion as the composition of the population of this country, and for those who understand statistics this is significant statistical conclusion, i.e. that the people in our country as a whole accept these news comments as being authoritative. Now, if it were true that it was “five minutes of agony” for the people who share the hon. member’s political convictions, why do they not turn it off, and why is the number of times those radio sets are turned off not reflected in these scientifically-based surveys which are made? In the past year 500 letters were received, of which only 22 contained unfavourable comments on “Current Affairs”. Now, let us speak statistically, and he as a former journalist ought to know that it is easy for someone who is angry to write a letter and complain about something, but someone who supports a matter, does not readily write. Here we have 22 out of 500 who complained; the rest said that it was fine. In my opinion this is a significant piece of statistical information, of which members on the opposite side may safely take cognizance.

The hon. member for Durban Central referred here to Chief Buthelezi. The facts of that matter are that the news commentary of the SABC reacted to statements made by Chief Buthelezi, i.e. that terrorism is not a matter to be solved by him, but that it is a matter for the White man. The SABC reacted to that, and in typical language, language which we on this side of the House are accustomed to hearing, Chief Buthelezi then had recourse to the Hansard of his Assembly. The SABC then rightly pointed out to him that they had not quoted him from Hansard; they had quoted him on the basis of his interview with The Star and it is quite ironical that it was the former editor of The Star who was so outspoken here. And do you know what constitutes an element of supreme irony in all this? It is that, on the basis of that interview The Star had with Chief Buthelezi, the conclusion arrived at in the leading article in The Star was the same as that arrived at by “Current Affairs”, i.e. that those words spoken by Chief Buthelezi meant that terrorism was the White man’s affair and that he had nothing to do with it.

Sir, let us speak for a moment about the right to reply. You know, the microphone is not there to be used by every Tom, Dick or Harry who feels himself wronged. And this is not only the case in South Africa. It is common practice in Europe, and the Opposition should not come along here with this silly story that they want a turn at the microphone now. The SABC is an independent news medium and it reflects what it considers newsworthy.

It only reflects the Minister.

The hon. member says it only reflects the Minister. That just shows one how uninformed he is. The next morning, at the first opportunity, with reference to the interview with Deputy Minister Punt Janson, Councillor Oberholzer of Johannesburg was quoted over the news. That shows us how uninformed he is, Sir. If someone says something that is newsworthy, the SABC reflects it, and it makes no difference where it comes from.

Sir, in conclusion I just want to add something in respect of this question of quoting statements made by students. Each one of those students knew that this matter was going to be dealt with thematically. In other words, if a student said something during an interview, an excerpt could have been made to fit in with a specific theme in a series of programmes. What is more, each one of those students knew that statements had previously been made by former leaders of NUSAS which were thoroughly scrutinized in this House, at the time the report of the Schlebusch Commission was tabled. Now, I have only one question. If we in this country had been so absurd as to give every person the right of access to the microphone, something which is not done in any European country, what would those NUSAS leaders have said? Would they have adopted the standpoint they adopt in their leaders’ clique, or the one which, according to the report of the Schlebusch Commission, they allegedly prepared for general public consumption? What a silly idea to claim, on behalf of the students and on such grounds, the right to appear before the microphone.

But, Sir, what about the question of the Second World War, when that side of the House blatantly abused the radio? Did they give people the right to speak over the microphone at that time? At that time, did they give the people who were opposed to the war effort the right to adopt anti-government standpoints? They did not.

Sir, my time is running out and I should like to raise a few further points. When we discuss the SABC’s right of interpretation we must, in the first place, ask the question: Where does it come from? The SABC’s “Current Affairs” column dates back to 1960, to Sharpeville and the attempt on Dr. Verwoerd’s life, when South Africa was in a state of turmoil and there was a massive onslaught on the country. At that time it was the SABC’s duty as a national radio service to adopt a standpoint, in the midst of this massive onslaught. Since that time it has started interpreting, rather than merely reflecting world news, which is totally at variance with the practical experience of life we have gained in this country over a period of 300 years. Since that time it has been necessary for the SABC to adopt a standpoint. And what is their policy in respect of this standpoint? They invoke the values and the traditional way of life of our country. They attach value to the balance between the freedom of the individual and his responsibility to society. It is on the basis of these guidelines that the SABC broadcasts its news comment programmes to the world. And, Sir, we appeal to our right to work out our own salvation. In the midst of this tremendous onslaught which is aimed at eliminating the dividing lines between people, and so on, we want to tell the SABC that they may safely continue to reflect the traditional way of life of the country. If it should so happen that the way of life which is reflected by them is the same as the standpoint of this side of the House, those people should not be sour because they are so out of touch with the population that no responsible radio would dare to put their standpoint. And here I am including that responsible section of the Press which is realistic enough, along with the SABC, to put standpoints, for the sake of South Africa, and to inform our people and give them the necessary background to be able to evaluate news in its correct perspective.

Mr. Chairman, this debate is the first discussion of the National Education Vote in which the hon. member for Durban Central appeared as the main speaker of the official Opposition. I should like to congratulate him on the distinction which has fallen to him, and tell him that a great responsibility rests on him. I honestly expected, considering the fact that the Opposition chose him, a man who was formerly a member of the teaching profession and who was trained as an educationist, that we would be able to begin again with a positive discussion on education and training. But, Sir, you will not take it amiss of me when I say that the speech made by the hon. member was really a great disappointment. The reason for that is obvious. It is because his approach to this new task of his is simply a negative one. He began with a string of minor and frequently petty points of criticism, instead of adopting a proper standpoint, and analysing and presenting it logically. The hon. member may well go and learn from some of the other hon. members who have participated in this debate up to now. The hon. member began by stating scornfully that the Department of National Education is, as he claimed, sectional because we deal only with the education of Whites. That is true; that is the legal set-up, and if he wishes to change it, he should first ensure that his side of the House takes over the government of this country.

He referred in the same context, and did this half-derisively as well, to the efforts my department is making to introduce a central data bank. He said that this would in any case be in respect of education for the Whites only. That is quite correct, but this stems from the legal set-up. He also referred to the organization with the name of Piccor, i.e. the Permanent Interdepartmental Committee for the Coordination of Education for all Races. He said that I had disbanded this committee, to which a major task had been entrusted. I want to say to the hon. member that this is not a matter which he need have raised in a debate; he could have raised it by way of a question, or he could have asked me in the Lobby to furnish him with the facts. The facts of the matter are that the Economic Adviser of the Prime Minister wanted certain data on non-White education departments and then approached the National Education Council. The National Education Council thought that this would be a permanent requirement and for that reason they thought that such a body should be established. When it appeared that that had not been the intention, this committee was disbanded. That is the whole story in this regard.

The hon. member questioned our examination system, but I think the hon. member for Standerton replied to him very effectively. I do not want to elaborate on that any further, except to tell him that the question of the evaluation of the achievement of a student and a pupil is something which is the subject of serious inquiry throughout the Western world. So far no country has found a method by means of which examinations could be eliminated. But the hon. member for Standerton has replied to him, and I therefore do not want to go into this point any further.

He also referred to a teachers’ council, and the hon. member for Standerton also associated himself with that request. I want to inform the hon. member that considerable progress has been made in regard to the matter. In fact, the National Education Council has put forward a draft Bill, and has consulted with the Federal Council in regard to it. At that stage the Federal Council considered it wise to send a representative overseas to study the Scottish system of a teachers’ council. Therefore this matter is still under consideration, and it goes without saying that a considerable measure of consultation will still have to take place between employers and employees. The hon. member is of course overlooking something, and I think he is doing so conveniently for he ought to know better. What he is overlooking is that most of the teachers, i.e. the employees, are not officials of my department, but officials of the various education departments. For that reason I asked him previously what my standpoint should be when Administrators cannot reach agreement among themselves in regard to the provisions of such legislation. It is no use presenting such legislation and establishing such a council if it means nothing.

Then the hon. member jumped to the Van Wyk De Vries report, a report which the hon. member for Yeoville also dragged in when he discussed university financing. It goes without saying that this deals with an extremely important matter and no one could have wanted this report tabled in this House sooner than I. I know that it will form the cornerstone of our university system many years from now. However, one must also be realistic. I also replied to questions in this house in which I gave an explanation of why there had been delays. I want to tell hon. members what the position is. The main report—there are two interim reports and one main report which run into almost a thousand typed pages, apart from the schedules—has been available in Afrikaans for some considerable time. The English translation of the main report is also ready. The hon. member for Houghton finds this boring, but I am replying to the question put by Opposition members. She may as well listen.

What more do you want me to do?

The English translation of the main report is ready, but the translation of the two interim reports is not quite ready yet. This is the report to which the hon. member for Yeoville referred when he spoke of the sword of Damocles allegedly hanging over the heads of the students. If the hon. member takes the rules of this House into consideration, he would know that I have to table that in both languages. That is the cause of the delay. I hope I will be able to table the report before we prorogue, but I cannot give a firm undertaking in this regard. I also want to say that many of the points which he raised in his speech, are dealt with in that report, which I do not want to anticipate.

The hon. member referred specifically to the financial implications. The hon. member for Durban Central also referred to the universities who supposedly do not know what their financial position is. I want to make it very clear here today that in my opinion the universities over which I have a say, in general have very little to complain about as far as their finances are concerned. I am saying this with great conviction.

That is where you are making a mistake.

The first interim report of the Van Wyk De Vries Commission dealt only with university finances. For that reason it was never made available except to the universities. Over the past number of years we have been building on that systematically, and the financial provision to the universities has grown to such an extent that, in spite of what the hon. member for Yeoville said, I am convinced that the universities are not too badly off today.

Is there one principal in South Africa who agrees that universities are receiving enough money?

The hon. member for Yeoville gives himself out to be an expert in all spheres. I know that he is a member of the council of the University of the Witwatersrand, but when one discusses these matters, one cannot merely quote from the council minutes; one has to have a little more knowledge of the matter.

I am not speaking on the basis of council minutes; they are confidential.

I want to reply to the question which the hon. member put, viz. whether there is one principal in this country who supports my standpoint. I want to quote to him what Prof. Gerrit Viljoen wrote in this RAU-Rapport of September 1974.

Does he say that he is receiving enough money?

Listen. He says (translation):

Thus the quotation. I want to add to that, …

Where does he say that he is satisfied?

… and my hon. colleague for Boksburg also mentioned the fact, that in the 1974-’75 Estimates which we have before us, an amount of more than R106 million is being appropriated for the Universities, and an amount of R59 million in the form of loans. Now the hon. member is asking me whether I can mention one principal who supports my standpoint.

But your quotation does not prove that he supports it.

In regard to the Van Wyk De Vries report I also want to say that after the Afrikaans version became available, we made it available to the universities on a confidential basis and asked them to set their financial officers to work, specifically in regard to that section dealing with the finances of the universities. They held discussions among themselves, and also with the officials of my department. In other words, as far as that aspect of the Van Wyk De Vries report is concerned, we have already made considerable progress.

Mr. Chairman, may I put a question to the hon. the Minister? Before he leaves the subject of university financing, I should like to point out that in my speech yesterday I specifically furnished him with Prof. Stock’s published statement. How does he explain his words?

Perhaps I could explain it in rather down-to-earth terms by repeating what someone else had said previously, viz. that he had never yet met anyone who turned his nose up at money. I take it that that is the standpoint of both the hon. member for Durban Central as well as the hon. member for Yeoville. These people always want more money, but how any university can say today that it cannot manage with the money which we are making available to it, is beyond me.

The hon. member for Yeoville, who has now walked out, also referred to bursaries. He made as if it were impossible for a person of unsubstantial means in this country to attend a university. The hon. member does not do his homework. He has too many other interests; that is quite clear. If he had read the report in front of him, the annual report and other documents available to us, he would have known that there is a Study Loan and Bursary Fund from which bursaries to an amount of R448 122 have been paid up to 31 March 1973, and that there is a supplementary bursary scheme of the State for such uncommon fields of study as medicine, engineering and geology. The amount in question is R450 000. There are other study bursaries which we are also making available, to an amount of R66 000. The amount made available to the universities by the authorities for study loans and bursaries, amounts to approximately R1 million. And then the hon. member levels the charge that it is not possible for people who want to attend a university to do so.

He mentioned another point as well. I just want to indicate how complete his knowledge of this matter is. He said that a concession should be made to the people who make donations to universities. The State is already making a concession. At first it was 2% of the taxable income of an individual or a company. The same applied to his companies as well. He could have made a donation to the university—and he could have stipulated the university—of 2% of the taxable income. It has now been increased to 5%.

That is a different point entirely.

Now I do not know what more the hon. member wants. It may be a different point.

It is a different point entirely. It has nothing to do with the point which I raised.

The hon. member for Yeoville mentioned various other points. He discussed the autonomy of the universities, free university education, and similar matters. I have said that these are matters which the Van Wyk de Vries Commission dealt with, and I shall not anticipate the report. Therefore I shall not react to that now, nor to his question in regard to the second interim report.

Actually the emphasis in this discussion so far has fallen on radio and television matters, and I now want to spend some time discussing them. Various hon. members discussed them, inter alia, the hon. members for Durban Central, Wynberg, Parktown, Umhlanga, Westdene, Boksburg and Florida. The hon. member for Boksburg mentioned that in July of this year broadcasting in South Africa had been in existence for 50 years. He said the SABC. That is of course wrong, but I understand what he meant. Actually it was on 1 July 1924 that South Africa entered the era of public radio broadcasts, and that 50 years have elapsed in the meantime. With reference to that I want to state a few facts here for the purpose of the record. I want to point out that on 1 August 1936, when the SABC began to function, it took over a burden of interest to the amount of £150 000 from the African Broadcasting Company. The broadcasts at the time were in English only, but a year later broadcasts were commenced in Afrikaans as well. On 1 May 1950 a start was made with a third programme, Springbok Radio, a bilingual commercial service. On 1 August 1952 a start was made with a cable rediffusion service in Bantu languages for the Bantu townships outside Johannesburg. On Christmas Day, 1961, the first FM broadcast from Johannesburg was made. Today we have Bantu programmes in seven languages on Radio Bantu. The hon. member for Westdene presented a very fine testimonial to that major and important service which is being rendered. On 1 September 1964 the first regional service, Radio Highveld, was introduced from Johannesburg, followed on 1 July 1965 by Radio Good Hope from Cape Town, and on 1 May 1967 by Radio Port Natal from Durban. These are the only two services to which the hon. member for Umhlanga listens, but at least he admits that these are good services.

Oh yes.

Radio RSA, our overseas service, was introduced on 1 May 1966. The hon. member for Westdene also referred to that. In 1969 a FM service in four languages was introduced for the inhabitants of South-West Africa. In other words, from a modest beginning 37 years ago, the SABC has grown to such an extent that it has since 1973 been broadcasting a total of 1 930 hours 30 minutes per week in its 19 programme services.

What is the sense of all this?

In 1936 there were 161 767 licence holders. Today there are more than 2,3 million. The hon. member asks what this has to do with it. I want to indicate what the SABC has achieved and I want to congratulate them on it.

He is now thanking himself.

He is blowing his own trumpet.

I am not as presumptuous as the hon. member for Yeoville; I do not move motions of thanks in myself. I am conveying thanks to the people who have been building up the SABC over all these years to the benefit of us all.

In the course of the debate we had a derogatory attack from the hon. member for Parktown. To a certain extent I can understand why he adopted that attitude. It is clear to me that he gave vent to all the pent-up feelings which he as a journalist had against the SABC, while he had a chance to do so here in Parliament. Of course, he has every right to do so. However, I want to tell him as my hon. colleagues put it to him, that it does not make much impression and I want to tell him why it does not. This year a survey was made by the 1820 Settlers’ Association. This is not an association to which Afrikaans-speaking individuals, Nationalists and Broederbonders belong. What were the findings of that survey? I want to quote to hon. members from the Rand Daily Mail of 20 July of this year—

I quote further—

The hon. member for Florida replied very effectively to the charge levelled by the hon. member for Parktown, and I am grateful to him for having done so. In addition, I just want to say this: The reaction during the year to the very programme to which he objected, i.e. “Current Affairs”, was very favourable. Of 500 listeners’ letters received only 22 were critical and unfavourable, as my hon. colleague has already pointed out. I should like to put the question to the hon. member for Parktown: If the service is as bad and pernicious as he makes it out to be, why is it that almost one million listeners per day listen to that service?

Because it is a monopoly.

That is something which annoys that hon. member. [Interjections.]

The hon. member for Westdene referred to the valuable and important work which Radio Bantu and Radio RSA is doing. I endorse every word he said and I want to add a few particulars. To give hon. members an indication of how important it is for the SABC to maintain this overseas service, I want to quote the following: Every day a total of 37 shortwave stations outside Africa broadcast in 32 languages for 2 074 hours per week to Africa as the target area. These include Radio Moscow. Radio Peking, Radio Prague, the Deutsche Welle, the Voice of America and the BBC. In the first five years after 1959 communist broadcasts to Africa increased a hundredfold, and over the past nine years Russia has increased its broadcasts to Africa threefold. Today Russia is broadcasting to Africa for a total of 60 hours per day in 16 languages, 12 of them indigenous languages of Africa. I maintain that Radio RSA and Radio Bantu are extremely important for all of us here in South Africa, and for that reason the SABC will carry on with its task. I shall let these remarks on the radio suffice, and come now to the question of television.

Various questions in regard to Television were put to me. The hon. member for Wynberg—the elected hon. member for Wynberg—touched on this matter yesterday evening. I want to say that the hon. member for Wynberg acted very dramatically here. I am taking into account the fact that he was participating in the jovial atmosphere after supper. If he could have seen himself …

I am quite prepared to make the same speech now.

… and heard himself on television, I think he would have been less eager for us to introduce television so soon.

Reply to the questions.

I am coming to them. The hon. member complained here about what he called “dual control” between my colleague, the Minister of Posts and Telecommunications, and myself. The hon. member said in his speech yesterday evening—perhaps he will not remember this … [Interjections.]

Mr. Chairman, is the hon. the Minister reflecting upon me? If he is, I want him to withdraw that statement.

Mr. Chairman, I do not regard it as any reflection on a person if I say that he cannot remember what he had said previously. I said that the hon. member for Wynberg had referred to “dual control”. He was wide of the mark.

Tell us about dual control; get on to the subject.

He knows nothing about the matter; that was why he asked such a stupid question. Sir, the task of introducing a television service was entrusted in terms of a Cabinet resolution to the Broadcasting Corporation, and the Department of Posts and Telecommunications are rendering certain services at a remuneration for the SABC. Included in those services are the collection of licence fees and the provision of the cable system and the microwave system. Therefor there is no question of “dual control”.

It is ordinary contract work.

Who is going to believe that nonsense?

The hon. member for Port Natal has already replied to the hon. member and has told him that if he had known what was going on he would have been aware that we will commence trial broadcasts in April of next year and that the date of commencement is January 1976.

Sir the hon. members for Durban Central and Parktown complained that the right of defending themselves over the air was being denied to them. Some of my colleagues have already replied to that. Sir, this does not happen anywhere in the Western world. If there are misstatements of facts the SABC is prepared to correct them, but obviously there can be no possibility of any right to use the microphone to state their case.

Sir, there is one other point which the hon. member for Durban Central raised. He complains about the fact that Dr. P. J. Meyer said that he was going to become chairman of the T.V. programme control board. I want to remind the hon. member that I said in 1971, when I made the announcement in this House, that a television service would be introduced, that provision would be made for such a programme control board for television. Since then the Cabinet has decided that that programme control committee would be cast in the same mould as the Bantu Programme Control Board, of which Dr. Meyer is also the chairman. We will have the necessary legislation before us next year, and then the hon. member can discuss this again if he wishes.

I hope you will no longer be the Minister. I have never seen such a rotten effort as this afternoon.

Order! The hon. member for Wynberg must please contain himself.

Sir, I said that the hon. the Minister was putting on a rotten show, and I repeat that.

Order! Would the hon. member please withdraw those words?

It is not unparliamentary, Mr. Chairman.

Order!

On a point of order, Mr. Chairman, may I ask your ruling as to whether it is unparliamentary to say that a Minister is putting up a “rotten performance”?

In this context, yes.

On a point of order, Mr. Chairman, are you considering the question as to whether or not the word “rotten” is unparliamentary?

It is not the word “rotten” that is in dispute.

The hon. member for Wynberg must please withdraw those words.

Mr. Chairman, I am sorry. I meant what I said and I do not wish to withdraw them.

Order! Does the hon. member refuse to withdraw those words?

Yes, I refuse.

Then I must ask the hon. member to withdraw from the House for the remainder of the day’s sitting.

(Whereupon Mr. J. I. de Villiers withdrew.)

Mr. Chairman, on a point of order, I ask that the Chairman of Committees be asked to take the Chair and to review the ruling which has just been given.

I put the question.

Mr. Chairman, may I ask for your ruling whether the word “rotten” is unparliamentary?

Order! The hon. member cannot appeal to another Chairman.

Mr. Chairman, I should like to address you on a point of order. As I understand the rules of this House, there is an appeal from the Chairman of Committees to Mr. Speaker. You gave the honour to a member of this House to occupy the Chair temporarily in terms of the rules. If there is to be a further appeal and you as Chairman will not rule on this, Sir, I ask that you report progress and ask Mr. Speaker to take the Chair so that we can then raise the point of order.

Order! There is no appeal whatsoever to another Chairman.

I am asking you to call on Mr. Speaker, Sir, not another Chairman.

Order! The hon. the Minister may proceed.

I proceed next to deal with the questions in regard to the progress being made with the television project. In this regard I want to say that as far as the broadcasting centre, the television complex, in Johannesburg is concerned, the structural work on that complex has been completed and certain of the buildings, offices and studios have already been occupied, and that the installation of electronic equipment is proceeding according to programme. I am also giving this answer specifically in reply to a question put by the hon. member for Wynberg, who has now had to withdraw from the Chamber.

I hope he stays out.

As far as the television transmission stations are concerned, I want to state that 18 high power television transmission buildings have been completed on the existing FM premises, and that the installation of equipment are in various stages of progress. In fact, there are few problems in this regard. In addition low power transmission stations are being contemplated for the so-called gap-fillers to eliminate the shadow areas caused by the topography. Delivery has already been taken of four of these.

On a point of order. Sir, may I say that I am having a rotten time hearing in this corner due to the noise.

Order! The hon. the Minister may proceed.

I said that delivery had already been taken of four of these low power transmission stations. The group here in the Western Cape is almost complete and the work is progressing without any hitches.

Reference was also made to television programmes, and I should like to spend a few moments discussing this matter. The SABC has set itself the target of manufacturing 73 documentary programmes and 13 dramas itself in 1974. All indications are that that target will be achieved before the end of the year. This is also a partial reply to what the hon. member for Boksburg suggested when he discussed television programmes. Instructions were given to ten local companies for documentary programmes, to the amount of R352 000. This year 163 programmes were purchased abroad, and of the purchased material 88 programme-hours will have been provided with an Afrikaans sound-track by the end of 1974. In addition the organizational preparations and training for the transmission of television news is proceeding according to plan. There will be two news programmes, comprising altogether approximately 40 minutes per day. They will be presented alternately in English and Afrikaans, because Phase I of the television service will be offered in the official languages.

Questions were also put in regard to the training of staff. In this regard I want to remind hon. members that I went into this matter in detail last year. In my reply to the discussion of this Vote I elaborated last year on the need, and what was being done to meet it. I just want to say in addition that the third group of 60 officials of the SABC, 40 operational staff members and 20 programme staff members, are at present being trained in the TV training centre. The recruiting programme abroad was also exceptionally successful this year, and by the end of this year there will be more than 400 qualified TV staff members in the employ of the SABC. The first five members of the TV news staff have been appointed. Some of them are receiving their training overseas here, and this programme will be continued.

Questions were put to me in regard to a very important aspect, namely the financing of television. I said last year that the capital expenditure, establishment costs and interest, would be borne by means of loans taken up abroad as well as in South Africa in accordance with the requirements of the Treasury. It was estimated at the time that these establishment costs would amount to R92 million. I want to inform this House that the revised estimate at present is not less than R106 million. In addition it has been decided by the Cabinet that the expected initial deficit during the period 1976 to 1980, which will amount to approximately R38 million, will be contributed by the State. The present estimates are alarmingly higher as a result of developments which are known to hon. members. I do not want to go into this. This will entail that if the SABC is committed to a contribution of only R38 million by the State, it will not be able to undertake extensions to its transmission network, and in that way reach other places with broadcasts which it is not yet possible to cover. It is therefore clear that this matter has taken a very serious turn. The increased and the steadily increasing costs, and the fact that the SABC will not be able to undertake any or only a slow expansion of the transmission network, is in fact such a serious consideration that the possibility should not be overlooked now that the Cabinet may have to reconsider its previous decision, viz. that a start will be made with a television service without advertising spots. This is only a possibility. At this stage no decision has as yet been taken in regard to the matter. Hon. members will recall that it was decided earlier, in the interests of both the Afrikaans as well as the English-language Press, that the television service would be without advertising spots. This tremendous increase in costs and the financial problems attendant upon the service, may, however, lead to the Government having to adopt a different standpoint, and that it may perhaps, at an earlier or later stage, be necessary to proceed with a limited advertising service on our television programmes. It goes without saying that this will be limited. In our deliberations we are discussing the possibility of the introduction of advertising services for 5% of the total transmission time, i.e. 30 spots of a half minute duration each. Whether this will be adequate to make the financing possible, time alone will show.

I also want to say that licence fees of R36 per set per annum have been approved by the Cabinet. [Interjections.] I hear an interjection here to the effect that this is too high.

It is cheap.

The hon. member for Umhlanga also referred to the high costs yesterday, but he forgets that it is impossible to compare the circumstances here to the circumstances in England, for example. In England there is a far larger population and one transmitter serves millions of people, while the figure here in our country is only tens of thousands per transmitter. The hon. member also asked what the position would be of old-age pensioners, among others, who would not be able to afford it. This is of course a matter which is in the discretion of the SABC. We know that the SABC is already granting concessions in respect of radio licences and it may be that they will consider these in respect of television as well.

I have another communication to make. The commission which investigated the introduction of a television service initially recommended that Phase II of the television service should be a separation of the Afrikaans and English transmitters into two independent services. The Cabinet has effected a change in this respect. The Cabinet has decided in principle that Phase II will be a service for the Bantu, a service which will be introduced as soon as the SABC can manage to do so. What is the meaning of this decision in principle? It means that it is now possible for the SABC to have certain excavations made while the contractors are still working on the building sites, and to make certain adjustments to the building complexes and to the television studios. This will be proceeded with, and training will also be commenced. The Bantu service, when it is introduced, will in fact include advertisements from the start.

With that I have now replied to the discussions on radio and television services, and also partially to the discussions on education. The other points which remain I shall deal with in a subsequent speech.

Mr. Chairman, may I put a question to the hon. the Minister. Would the hon. the Minister be prepared to explain to the Committee why it was not possible for the terms of reference of Piccor to have been changed over a period of four years? What was the difficulty there? That was the point I in fact made.

The reply is simply that the National Advisory Education Council, which had thought that it had been an instruction to work along these lines, worked on that matter in committee and investigated the possibilities, and that it only appeared subsequently that this was not what the Economic Adviser of the Prime Minister had wanted. Then, after everything had been done as prescribed, the committee was disbanded.

Mr. Chairman. I listened attentively to the reply of the hon. the Minister, and also to most of the speeches made under the Education Vote. I found that most of the speeches remained for the most part within the framework of the existing education policy. I want to touch upon one or two matters which in fact questions the framework itself. I do not want to do this in a wilful manner, and for that reason I want to link it to a standpoint which the hon. the Prime Minister has stated on quite a number of occasions now, viz. that the time has arrived for a consensus to exist on certain fundamental matters in South Africa. One of these is that there should be greater understanding and better relations between the two largest White groups in South Africa, namely the Afrikaans and the English-speaking sectors. Another plea advanced by the hon. the Prime Minister was that there should be a greater understanding between Black and White. In this regard I should like to put forward a few suggestions and advance a plea which is intimately connected with education, and in respect of which education can make a contribution.

As far as greater Black/White understanding in South Africa is concerned, I found it gratifying to observe last year that universities such as the Rand Afrikaans University and the University of Potchefstroom were prepared to make some of their facilities available to non-White students on a post-graduate level, although under extremely circumscribed circumstances. In this regard I want to make an appeal to the hon. the Minister and say that I can hardly imagine that that side of the House is going to restore university autonomy without further ado, as the hon. member for Yeoville advocated, but that there is nevertheless an opportunity here of restoring this measure of autonomy to all universities in that they can admit students, regardless of colour, on a post-graduate level. I think that this is essential because we find ourselves in different circumstances. This is one of the few opportunities which exist for students of various races to learn to know one another better as students on a relatively senior level.

In this regard I just want to refer, in addition, to the statement made by the principal of the University of the North, as reported a week or two ago in a Sunday newspaper, Rapport. He said that he was highly perturbed at the situation which existed at present in the University of the North, particularly with reference to the activities of Saso members on the campus there. He made an important observation when he said: “It is no use building universities and schools for the Black man if you do not want to shake his hand.” He pleaded for greater understanding and better relations. I think that this is one way in which this can be brought about at the White universities as well.

In addition I want once again to make a plea with reference to a question which I put previously to the hon. the Minister, viz. that everything should be done to make a Bantu language a compulsory subject at school. The hon. the Minister said in his reply that there were insufficient teachers available for this purpose, but I think that circumstances could be created which would make it attractive for students to learn a Bantu language and then enter the teaching profession with that Bantu language as main subject so that the possibility will be created of eventually learning a Bantu language in all schools.

When it comes to improving Afrikaans-English relations, I want to rake up an old bone of contention, although in the light of new circumstances. I want to advocate that section 2 of the National Education Policy Act, No. 39 of 1967, should disappear, for in terms of that Act the parents are to a large extent being deprived of a discretionary freedom, the freedom to send their child to the school of their own choice, whether it be an Afrikaans or an English-medium school. In other words, if the parents so prefer, Afrikaans and English children can, learn to understand one another better on the school benches. I am not mentioning this because I want to rake up old problems again; I am aware of a period in our history when this was important. [Interjections.] The hon. members must calm down a little; they can kick me just now if they wish.

I can assure you, Mr. Chairman, that my experience in education—I was at both Afrikaans as well as English-language universities—has been that even at university there is a total misconception and a total ignorance on both sides of the way of life, the outlook on life, and the problems with which each group has to contend. I am just as convinced that, if they were afforded an opportunity of learning to know one another’s views and standpoints better, this misconception and prejudice could disappear. I am asking for this for simple reasons. Firstly, I think that at present we find ourselves in new circumstances. As the hon. the Prime Minister said, the bitterness of former years has to a large extent disappeared, but not the ignorance. I hope that we are going to meet a new future and that this new future results in tremendous challenges which we must be able to cope with in terms of the real differences between us. This brings me back to the point which the hon. the Prime Minister made. What I mean by “real differences” is that we are burdened to a large extent here with traditional differences in our politics.

There are verligtes and verkramptes sitting on this side of the House, and verkramptes and verligtes sitting on the opposite side. The dividing factor is language. It is ironic that we have a situation here where the two main parties in the House are squabbling to a greater extent in their caucuses than here in the House. The only party which is not squabbling is the Progressive Party. We do not have any problems with our caucus. We sit and argue about how many cups of tea are needed. We know what we want to say, but we are not afforded the opportunity of arguing about it here in the House. That side of the House squabbles in its caucus about sport, Coloureds and South-West Africa. Here these people are sitting squabbling over who is going to woo the Natal group away, and form the strongest part of the party. I really think that this is something that we cannot afford in South Africa. We cannot afford this artificial political division, where people are squabbling among themselves instead of discussing the real questions of South Africa, across the floor of this House.

One of the reasons for that is the perfectly simple fact that there is complete misconception and ignorance between Afrikaans and English-speaking persons in South Africa. If we debate the matter seriously, we will not find the situation where hon. members on that side of the House make use of every Vote to thank the Minister. But I do want to make an appeal to the Minister. Does he not want to introduce a new practice? Does he not want to afford hon. members on that side of the House an opportunity, ten minutes before the discussion of his Vote commences, to thank him in the Lobby so that we can conduct a truly political debate here?

I think my time is running out, and I am aware that there is a Pavlovian relationship between the hon. member for Rissik and myself. I am the stimulus and he is the response. I am certain that he is going to rise to his feet at some time or other and make another attack on me here. For that reason I want to ask him in all sincerity why we cannot, in these new circumstances, reconsider giving our parents discretionary freedom. I am not saying that we should have bilingual schools again. That could perhaps come at a later stage. I am referring only to the right of the parent to be able to send his child to the school of his choice. I think it is important.

I just want to raise the question of universities again. I want to associate myself with the hon. member for Yeoville. This is an unusual thing to do now, but I want to do so nevertheless. Consideration must, after all, be given to university autonomy. Mention was made of mixed hostels and co-habitation. That is not what is at issue. What is at issue is the fact that a university, in terms of the subsidy relation between it and the State, does not have the right to be able to decide how it will apply its money for the provision of hostel accommodation at the university itself. There are those who advocate a mixed basis, and it has already happened. Incidentally, most of the daughters of these members who do not go to university, stay in a flat and are exposed to all those other dangers which these people rise and conjure up here with such relish.

Mr. Chairman, in the work published by Pama concerning De Villiers’ major work in the previous century, he said, inter alia (translation)—

Genealogy enjoys a great deal of interest in South Africa at present. Research into the history of families not only satisfies curiosity or the desire for knowledge, but can also be meaningful for a number of scientific disciplines. It has been rightly said that genealogy forms the earliest beginnings of history as a science. Each civilization starts its historiography with the genealogical tables of its monarchy. For the biographer in his turn, it is a disappointment if he is unable to give the fullest possible description of the person about whom he is writing. Genealogical research also casts light on questions of heredity, such as the phenomenon of longevity, the incidence of twins and triplets, mental deficiency, backwardness and geniality. It casts light, too, on hereditary diseases such a porphyria, polyposis and haemophilia. The chief sources of genealogy in South Africa are, in particular, the baptismal, membership and marriage registers of the churches, and then, too, the old and valuable habit our forefathers had of writing the family-tree in the front of the family Bible. Then, too, we find a great deal of information in respect of family historiography in other archival documents, such as estates, wills and death certificates. Another important source is church-yards.

There has been a considerable number of men and women in the course of South Africa’s history who have made considerable contributions towards family historiography. In the previous century it was in particular a man like Christoffel Coetzee de Villiers, who, with his monumental work “Geslachtsregister van Oude Kaapsche Families” made a very major and noble contribution to South African family historiography. Other people who contributed were Dr. Graham Botha, Prof. H. T. Colenbrander and Dr. J. Hoge. Over the past few decades, too, there have been a few people who have contributed works of great distinction, inter alia, Dr. du Toit Malherbe and C. Pama, and particularly Dr. J. A. Heese, who for many years worked in the archives of the Dutch Reformed Church. Many interesting works concerning various families have also appeared in recent times. I have in mind in particular the work of Dr. Petronella van Heerden on the Van Heerdens; works have also been published about the Kloppers, the Van der Spuys and the De Villiers’s. A very interesting book by Mr. Krige of Pretoria about the Krige family has also appeared.

I am also particularly grateful for the work done by the Human Sciences Research Council’s Institute for Historical Research. At the request of the Suid-Afrikaanse Akademie vir Wetenskap en Kuns, and with the approval of the Minister of National Education, the H.S.R.C. established a department of Genealogy in 1971. At the moment these people are doing a great deal of good work in the field of family research. This afternoon I also want to take note with appreciation of the work that is being done by the State Archives, particularly by the subdivisions Heraldry and Genealogy. Then, too, I want to make mention of the gigantic task performed by the Genealogical Association of South Africa, as well as the publication Familia, which is published by that association.

In South Africa, therefore, owing to the interest and dedication of various people and bodies, we have an opportunity to perform our own local genealogical research so well that in point of fact, there are few other countries in the world that could compare with us. One reason, of course, is that we are still a young community, only 200 or 300 years old, and have had the opportunity to note down many of these facts. I therefore want to make an appeal this afternoon to all who are interested—and I can assure you, Sir, that there are many people in South Africa who are greatly interested in family history—to get in touch with the bodies concerned that I have just mentioned to you. My request is that we should try to trace all the particulars that may still be lying somewhere in houses, in albums or even in chests. There are many documents that are of importance for those doing research in this field of study. I should like to make an appeal to people, particularly the older generation, to look around in their houses a little and send these things to these bodies. In particular I should like to see the hon. the Minister conveying the idea to the H.S.R.C. of our having to establish also a section which could copy old family photos and then return them to their owners. We ought then to systematize them and store them scientifically. One could then make a phototheque, so to speak, of these family photos. If we were to do that, we could also place genealogical research in South Africa on a very high level. A few years ago Eric Rosenthal did some research and said that there were more than 76 000 people by the name of Jakobs in South Africa, more than 70 000 Bothas and about 63 000 Van Wyks. The Van der Merwes only came fourth with about 60 000. There are also about 50 000 Nels and 48 000 Du Plessis’ and Venters. With data of this kind we in South Africa can make a contribution in regard to family historiography which could be of the greatest importance. I think that if we were to succeed in placing this matter, too, on a scientific basis, our descendants of a 100 or 200 years ahead would have very interesting data. I should like to ask the hon. the Minister not only to convey our appreciation to these specific bodies, but that we should establish these various departments with the money at our disposal and that we should give a special place to family research in our research projects in South Africa.

Mr. Chairman, in the very short time allocated to me, I should like to deal with some of the remarks made by other hon. members, especially the “opstoker” speech made by, I think it was, the hon. member for Boksburg as well as the “white wash” speech that was made by the hon. member for Florida. Just to be different, however, I shall say a few words first of all about the speech made by the hon. member for Rondebosch.

I thought that the first part of the speech made by the hon. member for Rondebosch was very good. He dealt with open universities and the relationship between English and Afrikaans, and I think that he gave an extremely good outline of what is in fact United Party policy. [Interjections.] I want to ask the hon. member for Rondebosch, who is unfortunately not here at the moment, why he is not in the right party when he makes a speech of that nature. He spoke about the debate across the floor and the debate within the parties. He spoke about verkramptes and liberals and all sorts of persons, but I am not sure whether he knows what a verkrampte is. I have always believed a verkrampte to be a person who is rigid, one who does not change, one who does not adapt himself to new circumstances and modern ideas. Who can deny that over the years, as the South African scene has changed, so United Party policy has moved with the times and is therefore today the policy of verligte thoughts in South Africa? [Interjections.] While we are talking about verkramptes, how can a party which is supposed to be verlig continue to support an antiquated, anachronistic, outdated, dead duck of a policy relating to a qualified franchise linked with a common roll? [Interjections.] Talking about a party of verkramptes, how can we have a member of that party who refuses to allow facilities for all races to be provided in his own constituency? [Interjections.]

The hon. the Minister has final jurisdiction over education in South Africa. While many spheres are correctly left in the hands of the provincial councils, the overall policy relating to education is in the hands of the department in terms of the National Education Policy Act. The hon. the Minister has de jure powers to spread the influence of his department throughout the country. He also has de facto powers in terms of Cabinet level decisions in regard to finances being made available to provinces for education purposes. Finally, in his capacity as Minister, he is in a position to guide the policy and planning in respect of education and to obtain maximum co-operation from all the provincial authorities. I would like, Mr. Chairman, to draw the attention of the Minister and of this Committee to the grave deficiencies which exist and are being perpetuated in South Africa in general, but more particularly in the Transvaal, in regard to education through the medium of the English language. As an eminent Wits authority, Professor S. P. Jackson, was quoted as saying last year—

Mr. Chairman, this may sound to be alarmist, but my investigations lead me to believe that the allegation is not far from the truth. Let us look at a few aspects, firstly the nursery schools, which very shortly will become the subject of a Bill to be introduced in this House. The Transvaal has been interested only since 1969, when it was announced that the Provincial Administration was to take over the control of pre-school education in the public and provincial schools. New criteria were introduced with a four-year curriculum at the colleges of education. Thus teachers who for the last 30 years have been trained at the nursery school college in Louis Botha Avenue, which college has always operated within the policy of the National Education Department, are now debarred from taking up posts in provincial nursery schools and their qualifications are not fully recognized. Mr. Chairman, every province except the Transvaal recognizes this college’s certificates. Representations have been made by teachers already in service that they be given an opportunity of a further year’s study to ensure that they are properly qualified in terms of the Transvaal’s requirements, but these representations have come to nothing. Their three-year course remains down-graded to a two-year course. Sir, I know of no precedent for this type of thing. Despite the fact that these teachers have been down-graded and cannot obtain employment now in provincial and nursery schools, they continue to provide private nursery schools with their services. They also continue to assist the department by opening their schools to student teachers, and they give to those student teachers their experience and unacknowledged guidance. Sir, by handing over nursery schools to the provinces, this sort of thing is being done by the Nat-controlled Transvaal Education Department to English-speaking teachers in the Transvaal. Furthermore, Sir, in the past five years only 59 teachers have so far undergone the four-year course in the Transvaal and only five of those are from the English-speaking JCE College and none at all from the Louis Botha Avenue College. Sir, I will have more to say about nursery schools when the Bill to amend the national education policy comes before the House, but suffice to say now, that unless urgent steps are taken by the Transvaal and by the Minister (a) to train more English-speaking students—and there is no current shortage in respect of English-speaking students for this—and (b) to rectify the injustices presently being perpetrated in regard to existing training institutions, there will fast emerge, if it does not already exist, a critical shortage of properly qualified English-speaking pre-school teachers. It is a most unsatisfactory state of affairs and it is the Minister’s duty to use his powerful and undoubted influence in the right direction.

But, Mr. Chairman, there is another aspect, and that is the training of English-speaking teachers for primary schools. It is true that for some years the department failed to draw enough English-speaking recruits and that Afrikaans-speaking teachers moved into that field. They did a very good job and the English-speaking community is extremely grateful for the work that they have done. But, Sir, the matter does not rest there. Despite the overwhelmingly Nationalist-orientated hierarchy in education in the Transvaal in particular, a very great responsibility rests on it and on the Minister to take whatever steps are necessary to safeguard the standards of education of both language groups. The position is that the facilities for the training of English-speaking teachers are in a mess. JCE, the only English-medium college in the Transvaal, cannot cope with its annual intake. It has to turn students away. Its building programme is 15 years old; it is lagging badly. Hostels, lecturerooms, libraries and incomplete sportsfields are scattered all over Parktown. Bad planning and the tardy re-development in the Transvaal of the only English-speaking college is a disgrace. The Administrator in the Transvaal and the Government will allow an opera house costing R25 million to be built, while it cannot spend money on building another college for English-speaking teachers. I believe that it is a disgrace and that something should be done about it immediately. Even as regards high-school training for teachers there has been uncertainty. There have been differences between Wits and the Transvaal Education Department for some time. These have not as yet been ironed out. I hope that the Bill that will be coming before us shortly will help to rectify this. It is none too soon.

Finally, if one looks at university education, one notices that Wits University caters for an area which is covered by three Afrikaans universities in the Transvaal. Now Wits has closed its doors, and 800 students have had to be turned away. Professor Bozzoli has told us that he does not know what is going to happen to the training of the English-speaking students who have been turned away in the past months. The commission on Universities is about to report, but the fact is that whatever comes out of the report it is no longer in my view a question of principle as to whether there should be another university for English-speaking people in the Transvaal. It is merely a question of when and how. The English-speaking community is ready to do its share and I hope that the Government is going to take a lead in this matter.

To sum up, we are agreed on decentralization to the provinces. We are agreed that the provinces should handle their spheres of education, but we say that the Minister exercises over-all control, and in the Transvaal we say that the authorities display a singular lack of interest in the education of English-speaking people. The English-speaking community is suffering and we ask the Minister to take steps to see to it that the matters which have been raised are rectified.

Mr. Chairman, I must say that right at the start of the speech by the hon. member for Sandton I had to agree with him. One must refer occasionally to one’s community, as here in Cape Town, to one’s swimming baths and one’s policy, but now there is something about which I must remind the hon. member. If I remember correctly, part of his family is also having certain difficulties with his own party and now it is of no use to lean towards the Progressives as he is doing. It is not going to help him in the party. But I want to agree with the hon. member today in that he as a representative of the English-speaking community has every right in the world to come and plead for either an English-speaking college or an English-speaking university, if it is necessary and essential and justifiable on its merits, in the Transvaal. I believe, therefore, that the hon. the Minister will give attention to the matter.

I want to talk about a different matter today. You know, Sir, in every Western country our children are tested, and then their intelligence quotient is determined, and after this intelligence quotient has been determined, we usually find that these children are divided into three categories. The first category includes those with an intelligence quotient of about 70 to 130, the ordinary, everyday trainable and educable children. Then there are those under 70 whom, we usually find, have to be placed either in special classes or in special schools, special schools and bodies where they can develop to their maximum potential. But there are not only these mentally sub-normal children; we also find that there are children handicapped in other ways, such as epileptics, physically handicapped children, blind, deaf and dumb children and to them, too, special attention is given, and special teachers and other persons are also trained specifically for them to ensure that they, too, get the most out of life.

But when one comes to those with an I.Q. of 130 plus—and these are the children about whom I should like to talk—we find that these people are in fact being shamefully neglected in South Africa, and that in fact, far too little attention is being paid to these people. There are three or four terms used to describe them. The one describes such a child as a gifted child. Another will call him a superior, intelligent child, another a talented child and some will call him a genius. I must point out that these different expressions are not synonymous. If one refers to a gifted person and looks for an example of such a person in the House, one could perhaps consider the hon. member for Constntia. One would be able to say of him that he is a gifted person, that he is a person who definitely has talent in that the hon. member is a very fiery speaker. The hon. member has that gift and therefore we can say that he is a gifted person. If there were anyone on this side who would like to invite that hon. member to address a party rally, one could not take it amiss of him, because that is the very gift which that hon. member possesses. To refer to another example, I could perhaps consider the hon. member for Walmer. I do not believe anyone could say that that hon. member is not among those who display the finest manners in the House or that the hon. member does not treat hon. Ministers with the greatest respect and humility. If the hon. member’s feet are too big for his shoes, no one could say that that is not talent. It is only a question of gifts which one either has or does not have. However, one would not seek mental superiority from that hon. member; it is as little associated with him as skins and pork are associated with the hon. member for Yeoville.

I should like to come back to the above-normal child at school. When one investigates the position of this child, one finds that he attends school together with children of an I.Q. of as low as 70. He sits in a large, over-full class and, owing to the number of pupils in the class, the teacher is unable to give special time and attention to such a child. The result is necessarily that the child becomes frustrated. Times without number we find that this kind of child who is really far above normal mentally, falls behind because he is not interested, because after a teacher has explained something once, he has caught on immediately and takes no further interest. As a result he performs more and more poorly, not only because he is not interested, but sometimes, too, because he tries to be acceptable to his fellow-pupils. He does not always want to be pointed at as the “egg-head”. When, later on, such a child receives further training at an educational college, we find that he is maladjusted and does not develop to his full potential.

Before the exodus from the country areas and the smaller towns to the cities took place, we found that the classes were small and as a result the teachers could give individual attention to individual pupils. However, what do we find today? The classes are over-full. This statement is proved when one considers our leaders in virtually every sphere. Take, for example, little towns such as Jamestown, Beaufort West, Calvinia and Nylstroom and look at the leaders that have come from them.

And the man from Kuruman.

Yes, just look at what has become of the man from Kuruman.

This only goes to show that we shall have to find a new method of identifying these people, in the first place, and in the second place, of training them in such a way as to preserve them for our people. We cannot get away from the fact that a people’s greatest asset is the brainpower to be found among its leaders. We make surveys of everything under the sun in South Africa. We make surveys of our mineral wealth, our gold and diamonds, and of our sources of energy, our water, our available wood, etc., but what about our brainpower? What about these people that we must identify even while they are at school? I know that the H.S.R.C. has been engaged on a project since 1965, of which we have not yet had the results. I know that differentiated education allows a syllabus to be extended. This, however, is not the answer. All it means is more and more learning work, more and more repetition, more memorizing and more and more reproducing. However, what these children really want is to have the opportunity of discovering things for themselves. They want to experiment for themselves. Because they possess exceptional ability, they want to create problems for themselves which they themselves can solve, and in their own way, but then, these abilities which they possess must be maximized. They must be developed. If one considers what is being done in the United States of America and England, one sees that even from Std. 3, these children work with more advanced technology. For example, they are given astronomy to study and have the opportunity of using the telescope themselves. They are given the opportunity of working with computers themselves, of posing problems and trying to find the answers themselves. Bearing this in mind, one sees how we in South Africa have really fallen behind.

In South Africa there are an estimated 20 000 children at school with an IQ of over 130 and one asks oneself what will become of them and what we are doing for them. I can therefore only make a plea to the hon. the Minister that everything possible be put in motion to help to train and guide this brainpower and this leadership potential in all spheres as far as possible. They must be given special attention even though it should be necessary to have a teacher at every school to give special attention to these children. If we could do that, we would already be satisfied. If the hon. the Minister could do this for no other reason, I ask him to do so because we all know that these 20 000 children will all be good Nationalists, because no young person with that potential and with that IQ would be interested in belonging to one of these two small, directionless little opposition parties.

Mr. Chairman, the hon. member for Pretoria East in attacking the hon. member for Constantia and in attacking me, spoke such nonsense that if speaking nonsense were a unit of electricity, he would have been a power station.

*I hope the hon. the Minister is in a better mood than he was earlier on because I want the hon. the Minister to accommodate me in respect of a certain matter. On 3 June 1971 I delivered a plea in the Cape Provincial Council in which I pleaded for a medical school and a training hospital attached to the University of Port Elizabeth. The then member of the Executive Committee concerned with hospital affairs was the present hon. member for Caledon, who, unfortunately, is not here at the moment.

There he is sitting!

The hon. member told me at the time that it was a matter to be raised in Parliament as it was a matter which fell under the Minister charged with educational matters. I hope the hon. member for Caledon will duly give me his support in this matter because he was very amiable when I raised it in the provincial council on that occasion. Naturally, I also expect the hon. member for Algoa to give me his strong support in this matter, because he has a very close association with the University of Port Elizabeth. I want to ask the hon. the Minister in passing whether he consults, as the Administrator does, the hon. member in whose constituency the institution concerned is situated on the appointment of representatives to the council. I understand the Government appoints four members and I should like to see that the hon. the Minister should consult the hon. member in whose constituency the university is situated. I want to tell the hon. the Minister that the university happens to fall in my constituency and that I am naturally proud of the fact.

Is that so!

I should like to appeal to the hon. the Minister to consider a teaching hospital … [Interjections.]

Order! Hon. members must make fewer interjections please. The hon. member may proceed.

I should like the hon. the Minister to consider a teaching hospital and a medical school at the University of Port Elizabeth. There is an acute shortage of doctors and, if it continues, will in the long run affect our national health standard.

There are too many of them sitting here!

The hon. member says that too many of them are sitting here, but I do not know whether they are medical doctors or otherwise. I believe that some of them should be patients! The ratio between the doctors and the public is widening and I believe that in 1970 between 1 000 and 1 500 potential medical students could not be admitted because there were no facilities at the universities to provide for them. The Medical Association of South Africa is most perturbed about the situation and I believe that they have appointed a special committee to investigate this matter. Against the background of the shortage of facilities for medical students, I should like to appeal very sincerely to the hon. the Minister to consider a medical school and a teaching hospital at Port Elizabeth. The latter would of course be attached to the University of Port Elizabeth. It would serve the entire Republic of South Africa but in particular it would serve the Eastern Cape, the Border, the Transkei and a portion of the South Western Districts.

I believe that there are very many factors which determine whether or not a medical school and a teaching hospital should be attached to a particular university or should be located in a particular area. In the short time at my disposal I cannot deal with all those factors but I would like to deal with what I consider the three most important factors. Firstly, there must be the population that will be served by the particular teaching hospital and medical school; secondly, there must already be hospital facilities in the particular area; and thirdly, there must be an established university in that particular area. In regard to population I would like to mention to the hon. the Minister that in 1967 there was already a total population of approximately 453 000 in the Port Elizabeth-Uitenhage complex. I am certain that today the figure already exceeds 550 000. A former Cabinet Minister said some years ago that if the rate of growth in the Port Elizabeth-Uitenhage complex continued at say 4% per year, in 26 years there would be approximately 1,7 million people living there. In 1967 already it was estimated that there were approximately 1,5 million people living in the Eastern Cape, the Border, the South Western Districts and the Transkei. I think that, without any doubt, on completion of the Orange River Scheme one will find new cities, new towns and new developments taking place which will be accompanied by an enormous increase in population. All this will centre around the Eastern Cape. I am told that from the date of its inception a medical school takes at least 10 years to establish itself. I believe that a medical school is necessary at this stage; imagine how much more it will be necessary 10 years from now.

I have now covered the population factor and I would like to deal with the second factor that would necessitate a medical school, viz. the hospitals in the area. I would like briefly to give the hon. the Minister the 1967 statistics. Since that date there have of course been vast increases and the statistics would be much more impressive than those I want to mention today. Firstly, there is the Livingstone Hospital for non-Whites in Port Elizabeth. In 1967 this hospital had 936 beds and performed 3 368 major operations and 17 818 minor operations and attended to 319 069 out-patients. There is also the Provincial Hospital for Whites in Port Elizabeth. In 1967 it had 700 beds and approximately 9 000 operations were performed. Since 1967 impressive additions have been made to the hospital. The hon. member for Caledon is no doubt aware of this since we had to ask him on many occasions to expedite those extensions. I mention this as a point of interest. Finally, we also have the Impelweni Bantu Hospital, the Elizabeth Donkin Hospital and the Walmer Sanatorium which all fall within the Port Elizabeth area. In 1967 the total number of beds in hospitals in the Port Elizabeth area was 2 141 of which 1 721 could be used for teaching purposes. In addition to that, again as the hon. member for Caledon is aware, we are planning a second provincial hospital in Port Elizabeth which we believe will increase the number of beds available vastly. In Uitenhage which is very close to Port Elizabeth there is a hospital which had 327 beds in 1967 and at that stage already I believe there was talk of an additional 100 beds which they probably have today. I may just mention that the Goodenough Commission of 1944 calculated that you need 950 to 1 000 beds to establish a medical school. It can be seen that we have more than double the amount of beds required according to the commission’s recommendations. I feel that this is a matter that requires the urgent attention of the hon. the Minister.

Finally, I would like to mention the enrolment figures at the University of Port Elizabeth. This year there are approximately 2 000 students enrolled at the university. When the university first opened in 1965 there were only 320 students enrolled at that university. In view of the fact that the number of students now is more than six times what it was in 1965 one can see that this is a most impressive increase in the student total.

I would like to mention one other factor, viz. that the university has catered for the possibility of a medical school and a teaching hospital. They have already set aside between 400 and 600 acres on the university campus for this particular purpose. Now we are only waiting for the Minister to give us the go-ahead. I would like to suggest that the hon. the Minister appoint a committee to investigate this matter and not just give me an immediate “no” in the debate. I would like to suggest that he should appoint a committee to investigate this matter and that the committee should liaise with the University of Port Elizabeth. I am sure that they will come to the irresistible conclusion that this particular medical school and teaching hospital should be commenced with as a matter of urgency.

They should liaise with the hon. member for Walmer.

Quite correct; they should liaise with the M.P. for Walmer as well.

There is another matter which must surely perturb both sides of the House and that is the very serious question of a child with a learning and reading problem. We find that today’s drop-outs and hippies, who could have been scientists, lawyers, medical men and even politicians, do not go far in life. A study has been made of the reasons why they do not go far in life. Research has been done on a very vast scale overseas. The results give a very clear warning about waste of manpower. Many of these drop-outs showed great potential in the early years of their school lives, but they never lived up to the potential expected of them. Their families were disappointed; their teachers were most amazed when their contribution to society was eventually nil. Poor reading as a result of visual perception problems is the most common learning disability. It has been found that between 10% and 15% of the school population of the United States have varying degrees of learning disabilities, the majority relating to vision. A child with a learning problem and disability often becomes frustrated and emotionally disturbed if the problem goes undetected. Many teachers mistake this particular problem for laziness and disobedience. This could naturally cause the child untold harm during his school years. Eventually he grows to hate his school life. We know that remedial teachers are in very short supply overseas and in South Africa. In 1969, as the hon. the Minister knows, the Government appointed the Murray Commission, which found that 15% of the children at White schools in South Africa, i.e. 126 000 children … [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, the hon. member who spoke just before me, confined himself mainly to the problems and requirements of his own constituency and therefore I shall not follow up on what he said. Actually, this afternoon I want to link up to a certain extent to what was said by the hon. member for Pretoria East. He spoke about the more intelligent child who suffered harm in the past as a result of the old system. I am in full agreement with him that this was in fact the case. But there was also another important, and larger, group of children that also suffered harm. I want to dwell briefly on their problem in the course of my speech this afternoon.

I think it can be said that the primary task of education is to train the coming generation to a level at which it is capable of continuing, unchanged or even in an improved form, the normal or existing way of life of the specific group or nation. In South Africa, education, and White education in particular, faces an exceptional task. It is generally accepted that it is necessary for 4% to 5% of the people in a country with a homogeneous population to serve as leaders at all levels. In South Africa, where the Whites do not even comprise a quarter of the total population, and where they have nevertheless to see to the planning, the leadership and the administration of the country, it is obvious that an exceptional burden is placed on White education, because this implies that 16% to 20% of the country’s people must be trained for leadership This is an enormous task, as I have already said, but it most definitely implies that every White child in the Republic of South Africa should have the opportunity of developing his or her particular talents to the very utmost. It was for this specific reason that the Government decided to implement a differentiated system of education.

Before going any further with this, I should like to address a word of thanks to the hon. the Minister for the fact that he has made youth preparedness a part of our school syllabus. It is true, after all, that it is only when one’s skill or dexterity is complemented by a high degree of preparedness, and mental preparedness in particular, that one really begins to be of service to one’s nation and one’s people. I am also grateful to the Minister for the fact that to a certain extent the physical preparedness of our girls is being developed by what I want to call “semi-military training”. It has always struck me as an absolute anomaly that while in a country like China, with its teeming millions, women are incorporated in the defence force, South Africa, with its enormous White manpower shortage, has thus far done nothing in this regard. Let me say that I am the last person who would want to see our women in an active capacity at the front, but after a 15-year association with the active Citizen Force, I know that there are innumerable positions, administrative and otherwise, that they could very fruitfully occupy.

I have said that every child should have the opportunity to develop to the utmost. Now it is true that there were deficiencies in the old system, and that is why differentiation was introduced. One of the deficiencies of the old system was mentioned here by the hon. member for Welkom, namely that from standard 5 to standard 10, between 50% and 60% of our children dropped out. This may sound unlikely to the uninformed, but it is true. I wonder whether this House realizes that as late as 1973, in spite of the phenomenal progress made over the past decade, only 22% of all Whites in South Africa were matriculated or possessed an equivalent certificate. Now it is a fact that of this 50% to 60% of our children who dropped out, about 25% dropped out between Stds. 7 and 8. This is the group of children with an IQ of between 70 and 90. children who were the step-children of the old educational dispensation. Provision has now been made for them—this is one of the most important components of differentiation, and we are grateful for it—in that there is now a practical, occupationally orientated course for them. Educationalists think that a far greater percentage of them will be able to pass Std. 8, and that there is even a significant percentage possessing the necessary requirements in regard to interest, perseverance, etc. to be able to progress to Std. 10. What a wonderful asset this will be for South Africa. I should like to dwell longer on this, but I want to go further.

One of the problems of our vast and sparsely populated country areas is that in some of our provinces there is a very decentralized system of education, with a very large number of small secondary schools which are going to find it impossible to implement differentiation, particularly in respect of this specific group of children who are candidates for that occupationally orientated course, with any real degree of success. I want to tell the Minister that serious consideration should be given to allocating additional funds to the provinces, during the transitional years only, to enable them to do what is necessary, in order that the degree of centralization necessary to place these children in a special class of their own, a class in which they will be grouped according to ability, may be effected. Let me say that I have evidence of this and that I should like to advance the evidence of an inspector who told me that having been away from a certain class for six months—this was one of the schools where grouping according to ability was already being applied—he simply could not recognize those children when he visited them again, because they had undergone a total personality change, a metamorphosis. They were full of ideals and they had self-confidence. It is the absolute duty of the Department of National Education to ensure that justice is really done to these children in classes of their own in which they are grouped according to ability. I should also like to say to the hon. member for Pretoria East that if they were to be removed from the ordinary classes, more time would automatically be available to the teacher to pay more attention to the more intelligent upper layer because in the normal course these children would take up a lot of his time. I said that there are certain deficiencies in our system. I want to go even further. We are living in a time in which science and technology are of absolutely overriding importance in the life of mankind, and therefore in that of us South Africans too. South Africa is becoming an industrial country. Notwithstanding this fact, as late as 1973—in other words, last year—91,5% of our children in our secondary schools were in ordinary academic schools and only 8,5% were in our technical schools. If one bears in mind, as I have said, that we are living at a time in which science and technology are of overriding importance, and if we take into account the fact that those sectors of our economy in which science and technology apply, are to an increasing extent becoming the biggest employers in the country, then it must be generally agreed that this figure is absolute disproportionate. This is not the fault of the Department of National Education. It arises out of the old dispensation which we inherited from a previous government and which this Government is now rectifying. One of the causes of this problem is the fact that in the old days, under the old dispensation, children with an IQ of 90 to 70 who were unable to make progress in the ordinary academic schools, were channelled to the technical schools. Do you know what the situation was there? The heads of various technical schools told me: “These children came to us as well-behaved, balanced boys, but within 18 months become ungovernable barbarians out of pure frustration.” [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, the hon. member for Sasolburg referred to the need to provide maximum educational opportunities for pupils and he welcomed the changes in the differentiated system. We hope that the new system will be successful, but only time will tell. In the field of education, changes must come slowly because they take years to assess and it is difficult to rectify mistakes at that stage. Obviously, radical changes must be brought about even more cautiously and we have certain of these radical changes about to be implemented here in this country. These changes are causing as much concern among certain hon. members on the opposite side of the House as they are among hon. members on this side of the House. I refer to the implementation of the three-term school year to be introduced by one of our provinces in isolation from the rest of South Africa. The background to this new calendar school year is contained in a report which appeared in Mylpaal of June 1973, which reads as follows:

In other words, the hon. the Minister gave the provinces the green light to determine whether or not they would introduce this three-term school year. The response was immediate. In fact, on the very date that this cabinet decision was announced, 14 June, the following report appeared in The Star.

Mr. Chairman, what is important is that this decision was taken despite objections from other provinces. In The Star the next day appeared a report which showed widespread public acclaim for this decision. It reads—

Mr. Chairman, I want to refer now to the position one year later. This is a report which appeared in The Sunday Express of 22 September under the headlines “Opposition grows to three-term school year”—

It seems to me, Sir, that the first flush of enthusiasm is now over and that the ground swell of realism has prevailed. This report says that the Transvaalse Onderwysersvereniging was to discuss this decision at their congress, and also that the Transvaal Teachers’ Association has opposed the three-term plan and has asked the Minister to intervene and, finally, that the four White universities in the Transvaal have not changed from four terms to three. Sir, these are three very important bodies in the Transvaal and I think the Minister should take cognizance of their new point of view; it is a new one. My position, Sir, is not that I am questioning a decision by the Transvaal Provincial Council. The United Party does support and always has supported provincial decentralization. But what I do question is the wisdom to permit a unilateral decision by a province in a matter of national consequence. Mr. Chairman, a three-term school calendar cannot be applied in isolation to the rest of the country. That calendar affects all sections of the population; it affects commerce, tourism, the hotel trade and industry.

What about the private schools in Natal?

I will come to that. The decision to alter the established calendar has a ripple effect and implications throughout the country, and I wonder how then it can be left to one province to go it alone. There are, of course, certain benefits, but I feel that these are only monetary benefits. For instance, in the commercial sector the hotel industry will be particularly happy; they will have an in-season all year and we will pay in-season prices all year. Put, Sir, we are not worried about people who are making money. The chief consideration is whether a three-term year will improve the educational opportunities for the pupil. I am not convinced that this is so. I do not intend to go into the pros and cons of a three-term year or a four-term year. I presided over a symposium at which this subject was discussed. What was said there was very interesting, but it would take too long to go into that now. All I can say is that there are arguments for and against, but the Administrator of Natal. Mr. Havemann, who I believe is himself an ex-teacher stated that the Natal Provincial Council could see no decisive advantages in the change, and at the symposium over which I presided we came to the same conclusion except for one facet, and that is that teachers who had had experience of a three-term year did state that a longer term is more tiring for pupils and teachers alike and particularly for the little ones in primary schools. I think this must be borne in mind, and also that with the longer term academic fatigue builds up, with a consequent apathy and indiscipline which is difficult to contest. One must consider the national implications of one province applying this system alone. Those members in this House and the hundreds of civil servants who will come down from the Transvaal with their families next year and who do not live at Acacia Park will find the change from a three-term system to a four-term system an unnecessary disruption. The children will be handicapped. They will come to school at a different stage of work. Those of us who come from a four-term system like myself and those in the Free State and further afield in the Cape Province and who are fortunate enough to stay at Acacia Park, will not be able to put our children into a three-term system and they will have to go elsewhere. This must affect the status of the school. But this is just an example which will apply throughout the country. I think this disruption and inconvenience is going to be considerable and is unjustified.

Another point of national consequence I should like to mention is that of national sports weeks. We have our Craven rugby week, and we have our Nuffield cricket week. Now the universities found that because their sports functions would not coincide, this was sufficient reason to retain the present system, and I quote—

Will it mean then that the Transvaal school players will be excluded from the sports weeks such as Craven week, because their holidays do not coincide? Then there is another question of national consequence I wish to mention, and that is the one of academic progress. Our concern in education is to provide improved educational facilities for the children. The protagonists of the three-term system claim that the reduction in examinations and in pupils’ progress reports will lead to a 25% economizing in teaching hours and administrative and clerical tasks. That is the main point. I see this rather as an economizing on essential educational practice by reducing regular academic assessment and pupil progress reports. By doing that, the three-term system is not providing more effective instruction.

Your people voted for it.

In fact the hon. member for Standerton, as well as the Minister, concurred that examinations are part of the education system.

Harry Schwarz voted for it in the provincial council.

The fourth point is: What about administration problems? You have to have uniform conditions of service. Take long leave. Normally in Natal a teacher acquires 12 days a year, and after five years he can apply for long leave which has to be taken for a term. Now in the Transvaal, because their terms are going to be longer, you will not get uniformity of conditions there and they will have to wait six years before they can get their long leave. [Time expired..]

The hon. member for Pietermaritzburg North is now kicking up a big fuss about the three-term year in the Transvaal, but I think that he should first consult with his own members on that side of the House, because according to my information, four of the hon. members on that side of the House voted unanimously in favour of this decision in the Transvaal Provincial Council. It seems to me now as if there is a communications problem on that side of the House between the various members and in my opinion the hon. member should first iron out the matter properly on that side before coming here and kicking up a big fuss.

Sir, with the coming of television to South Africa, we shall be undergoing one of the most interesting but also the most far-reaching experiences in mass communication. Not since the printer’s art democratized the written word and spread knowledge, information and certain views of life and the world far and wide, has any other medium of communication had such an enormous impact and significance as television. We in South Africa are also standing on the threshold of this communications adventure, an adventure which will open up to us new windows on life and on each other. Perhaps this is one aspect, namely that television will open up to us new windows on each other, a new and improved understanding of each other, which is in itself sufficient reason to welcome the coming of television to South Africa. To us in this country it is of primary importance to know and understand each other better and, where necessary, to trust each other better, too. In this regard I have in mind in the first place the relationship between Afrikaans-speaking and English-speaking people. In Phase I of the television service to which the hon. the Minister also referred earlier on, programmes will be presented in both official languages on an approximately equal basis. In this way the Afrikaans-speaking person will be able to introduce himself to the most reserved English-speaking family circle so that they may come to know him in his rich diversity as the person he really is and not in accordance with the incorrect and twisted image that people often have of him. In the same way the English-speaking people will be able to speak for himself and his fellow English-speaking South Africans in every Afrikaans speaking home, and there will be a better understanding, too, of the thinking and the way of life of the English-speaking person. Phase I of the television service, therefore can make a vast contribution towards bringing about a better understanding between English- and Afrikaans-speaking people, an understanding that is so necessary in this country. We cannot allow language differences alone to divide us. Perhaps it would also contribute towards a greater maturity with regard to our bilingualism, a maturity that would bring about mutual spontaneous respect for an appreciation for the other language, a maturity through which we could live out our bilingualism as a joy, as a window on life and not as a burden or a hindrance.

As far as the promotion of improved human relationships is concerned, I believe that the South African television service also has an exceptional opportunity and responsibility in regard to our Black people in this country. The television service has a unique opportunity to promote good relations between White and Black by conveying an improved understanding and knowledge of the various groups to each other. In this regard it is necessary to refer to the importance of Phase II, to which the hon. the Minister also referred earlier this afternoon. Phase II involves the introduction of a second channel, which, as announced, will involve, a television service in Bantu languages. The great success of Radio Bantu, to which the hon. member for Westdene referred yesterday, is already sufficient indication of the need for a modern medium of communication of this kind among our Black people as well. Apart from this it is a fact that a visual medium such as television has a far greater impact on people than the auditive. In the complicated situation we have in South Africa, the utilization of a second channel in Bantu languages in this way constitutes important opportunity to fulfil our educational responsibility towards these people. Education in the broader sense of the word through this medium is not only a responsibility, but also an opportunity to promote improved human relations through mutual understanding.

That is why I appreciate the fact that the hon. the Minister announced this afternoon that they would go ahead with the implementing of Phase II. There are, of course, a number of problems connected with the implementing of Phase II. For example, it is argued that the black man will not be able to afford a television set, but it is for that very reason that the Government has already agreed to allow black and white television sets to be put on the market, with the result that cheaper sets will be available. Apart from that, television viewing-centres in Black residential areas could be given favourably consideration. In addition, it is a proven fact that the Black man, in comparison with other population groups in this country, displays exceptional thrift, and that he often undergoes privation in order to obtain the luxury article which he would like to possess. The biggest problem in regard to Phase II, however, is the enormous expense it would involve. The costs involved in Phase I are in the region of R100 million. Although one assumes that part of the outlay on Phase I could also be used for the implementing of Phase II, bearing in mind increased costs, Phase II would also probably cost in the region of R100 million. Earlier this afternoon the hon. the Minister also touched on the aspect of financing when he pointed out that license fees would not nearly be sufficient to cover the costs. He said that enormous pressure was being put on the Treasury and that the only other possibility was to include advertising material in programmes. The hon. the Minister has already announced that initially, no advertising material would be included in Phase I, but that does not mean that advertising material would not, sooner or later, be included in Phase I. In fact I think that today, everyone recognizes that is is necessary for advertising material to be included in the service at some stage or another. Advertisements which, as the hon. the Minister pointed out, need take up only a few minutes in every hour, would reduce the pressure on the Treasury in regard to Phase I to such an extent that money could be made available for Phase II. I therefore wish to request the hon. the Minister that while advertising material will not be included in the initial period in Phase I, the initial period will not be too long, and that the hon. the Minister will make a timely announcement in this regard so that the preparation in regard to advertising material on the part of both the private sector and … [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman in my opinion, the speech made by the hon. member for Sasolburg was one of the most important speeches on this Vote. It is a great pity that time caught up with him. In my turn I should like to proceed with that subject.

†Just like the hon. member I wish to discuss technical education. While I am not critical of what has been done for technical education in South Africa, I feel that a great deal more can be done. Just like the hon. member I feel that the most important aspect of our future, apart from our racial problems, is that we have to take advantage of our industrial expansion in this country. If we do not do this, and if we do not find work for an expanding population—the only way to do it is by means of industrial expansion—we have no future. I think that the amount of money which has been spent on technical colleges—R10½ million as against R107½ million on universities—is in my opinion out of proportion. I should much rather like to see three to four times this amount spent on technical education in South Africa and I should like to tell the House why. First of all, the hon. member has stressed the point that an insufficient number of men go into the technical field, into the technical trades and into the academic side of engineering. This is quite correct, but the position has improved a great deal. At one time there was a marked prejudice against anyone who went into the engineering trade or even against anyone who was taking a trade. I can remember that when I as an apprentice started work I would not tell the girl whom I was courting that I was an apprentice. I would rather tell her that I was learning to become an engineer. There was a certain snob value attached to this and perhaps it was a spur to us to improve our position in life. Had it not been for technical schools that would not have been possible. Over 50 years we have seen a remarkable change in technical colleges and technical schools in South Africa, and I wish to pay tribute to the department for what has been done, as well as to those people who dedicated their lives to technical education in this country. I do not wish to follow the hon. member and speak about technical schools and the differentiated system other than to say that I hope technical schools are not going to suffer under the new differentiated system. To me technical high schools are one of the most important types of schools we have in South Africa. Any employer of engineering workmen will tell you that without a doubt a youth who has been trained at a technical school is worth four or five others who have not been so trained.

In respect of the second phase of technical education, namely that of technical colleges, I think there has also been a remarkable improvement. According to the department’s report the pass rate for technical apprentices was virtually 50% for 1972. This is remarkable because only ten years ago the pass rate was approximately 25%. I notice that the pass rate for part-time apprentices, those who were not able to make use of the block-release schemes, was only 12½% for 1972. I only hope it will be possible for all apprentices to partake of the block release scheme.

In the third phase of technical education I think the department has done remarkably well too. On page 222 of the report there is a list of the technicians who have passed their examinations. It is very encouraging to see such results. I do not think very many people know what a technician is. We know what an apprentice is and what an engineer is, but we do not know what a technician is. This is the problem. It is remarkable to think what is being done in this regard. There are boys who have been at technical schools for as much as seven years who now take these courses and receive a diploma that is virtually equivalent to a university degree. Some of these boys have to pass in sixteen subjects of 60 or 70 hours each. I think that a lot has been done in this respect.

It is the fourth phase, the university phase, that worries me. When one thinks of the money that is being spent on universities and on the number of graduates being turned out, one sees that the position is deplorable. The report gives the pass rate at the five universities where engineering is taken. The pass rate makes a sad story. Let us look briefly at the results in the two popular faculties of civil and mechanical engineering. In civil engineering, out of an initial enrolment of 1 920 students, there were 520 dorp-outs in four years. In mechanical engineering, out of an initial enrolment of approximately 800, there were over 30 drop-outs. The number who graduated presents an even worse picture. In civil engineering there are only 291 people who will receive degrees of all types, i.e. doctorates, master’s degrees or bachelor’s degrees. In the case of mechanical engineering there were only 106 who received degrees. If industry in South Africa has any future, we cannot possibly manage with 100 mechanical engineers a year. What is more, I am sure that at least three-quarters of these are already committed to firms who gave them bursaries to assist them in their studies. This has set me worrying. I wondered how we are going to rectify the position in South Africa to get more technicians and more engineers. I think we should look at the systems that have been evolved in the United States of America and in Western Germany since I think there is a lot to be learnt from them. We find, for instance, that in the United States they have had to divert boys from the universities to technical schools which they call junior colleges. The Government there has poured billions of dollars into this system of training boys at junior colleges in order to cut off this drop-out rate at the universities. It is this drop-out rate at our universities that worries me. What happens to the boys that drop out? Are they lost to engineering for good? Where do they go after they have failed one or two years at university? The German system also deserves consideration. Under that system, specialized universities have been established which offer only engineering subjects. The men who attend these universities for four or five years are diploma engineers. They have established over 100 technical schools in Germany which are equivalent to our advanced technical colleges and these technical schools turn out engineers after three or fours years’ study provided that the boys, after matriculating, have served an apprenticeship of three or four years. After a further three or four years such a person becomes an engineer and is recognized as such by the professional societies. I find that that system is probably the one that will appeal to us most. Dr. Van Zyl has recommended this before but I think that some thought should be given to the fact that in South Africa it might be wiser to establish only one or two specialist engineering universities. Let all engineering faculties be catered for at one, or perhaps at most two universities. We would then be concentrating our equipment and our staff and we would also probably find that we would save a lot of money. Let the advanced technical colleges turn out engineers. With very little upgrading of the courses, these technicians they are turning out now could become engineers. We would then have a reservoir of engineers who could be more easily trained. They will be practical men who have served their time on the benches. I think this would probably streamline our system for obtaining men in the trades. The academic engineer is still required, there is no doubt about that. He is mainly required, however, for administration and research work. The practical engineer, who does not require such a vast knowledge of mathematics and of the theory of engineering, is the actual person we need in South Africa. For example, when we think of the number of men we require solely as teachers at the schools which have to be established to train men in the trades and technicians, we already realize the need there for thousands upon thousands of men, and we have no one. I should like to know from the hon. the Minister what is going to be done about providing these technical teachers. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman. I am grateful that I, too, have the opportunity of trying to make a contribution to this debate. I actually want to do something that the hon. member for Rondebosch did not do and that is to thank the Minister, and I ant to thank him personally in his capacity as the Minister responsible for national education. He contributed largely towards ensuring that our teaching staff will receive reasonably good salaries in the future. We should bear in mind that by means of these increases, ample provision has been made to encourage initiative, to enable people to obtain the higher qualifications, particularly in view of the times we are living in. In my opinion the hon. member for Rondebosch should have displayed the same gratitude towards the Minister, the department and the whole teaching staff as the hon. member for South Coast did in his speech. I want to tell the hon. member for South Coast that seldom in my life have I agreed with anyone as I agreed with him when he expressed his thanks to the department for what had been done. I also agreed with him when he said that our children and young people should be correctly trained, that we should guide them along the right paths and that we have a shortage of technicians. I just want to tell the hon. member that phenomenal progress has taken place in this sphere. I should like to quote a few figures. While in 1910, only 1 120 students were provided with technical training, in 1948 34 institutions were providing 20 359 students with training. In 1972, 61 institutions were providing 52 633 students with technical education of this kind. In view of the introduction of differentiated education, with the development and attention enjoyed by psychological and extension services in recent times, great progress can be expected in the future. But far too many of these students are still going to the universities, particularly if one looks at the number of failures in the first year. One becomes a little despondent when one thinks that so many of these students go to university. One can only come to one conclusion about his. These people have taken the wrong turning; perhaps they have not been given the necessary guidance; that is why they went to university although they should really have been at a technical college. On the other hand, there are many of them who quite possibly go to the universities to go and rest or relax there a little, or with other ulterior motives. We do not know. I have certain activities in particular in mind. For example, last year Nusas’s telephone account at the University of Cape Town was R1 000. That being so, one asks oneself what they are really doing, if in one years such a large number of calls are made by that small body alone. That is why I say that we should continue to give more attention to differentiated education and psychological services, in order to train our young people and children correctly in this way to qualify in the right field. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, there are a few matters which I wish to raise. The first one is the situation that we find certain young people in today, because of the two intakes into the army. We have through circumstances been forced to take this action, so that we now have the January as well as the July intake. The young men of the July intake experience great difficulties, because most of our universities are loath to take on a young man for half a year, allow him to go off and do his 12 months’ national service and then reinstate him halfway through the second year. I believe that there is a certain accommodation at the RAU in this respect. However, as the situation is now, these young men have to waste six months doing an odd job or doing nothing. Then they do their 12 months and they then perhaps have to spend, another six months waiting to be taken in at a university. In other words, instead of losing 12 months of their academic life, they lose 24. I do not think that this is right. I do not think it does those young men any good, and I do not think it is good for the economy of the country. I want to appeal to the Minister to make some arrangements with the Committee of University Principals whereby these young national servicemen who are taken in during July can be accommodated at the universities. I know there is the academic difficulty of breaking off one’s studies halfway through a year and then restarting them after 12 months, but at least it keeps those people busy. It keeps them doing something positive, and it keeps them in the body of an organized university, rather than on the streets of the country. I would like to make a very sincere appeal to the Minister to do something in this connection.

The second matter I wish to raise, is that of the private schools in the Cape Province and the Transvaal. Before I am ruled out of order by you. Mr. Chairman, because this may sound like a provincial matter, I would like to say why I am raising this. I should like the hon. the Minister to consider ways and means of making it optional for private schools to come under his department as technical schools do, or as an alternative, to consider some arrangement with the Ministry of Finance whereby the fees paid at private schools can be made tax-deductible for income tax purposes. To motivate this suggestion, I should like to provide some facts in regard to the position of private schools in South Africa at the moment. At the moment they are subsidized in the provinces of Natal and the Orange Free State. In the Orange Free State, where the hon. the Minister is the chairman of his party, St. Andrew’s College in Bloemfontein is subsidized to the tune of 100% of actual teachers’ salaries. St. Michael’s School in Bloemfontein receives 50% of teachers’ salaries and Catholic schools receive R15 per senior pupil and R10 per junior pupil per term. In Natal there is a sliding scale of assistance based on the number of pupils and upon the qualifications of the teaching staff. The hon. the Minister knows that I have discussed this matter with him and that deputations from certain private schools have interviewed him in this regard. He also knows that we have raised this matter with the Cape provincial authorities. The Cape provincial authorities are absolutely adamant that they do not wish to give assistance. In this regard, they replied to me on 12 July as follows—

1. (a) Adequate provision is made for the formal education of pupils in provincial schools;
2. (b) provincial schools are undenominational but Scripture is a compulsory subject, regard being had to the religious convictions of the parents and pupils;
3. (c) it is considered superfluous to have a parallel system of private schools with provincial schools;
4. (d) if private schools cannot cope with the demands, accommodation and facilities are available for these pupils at provincial schools; and
5. (e) parents sending their children to private schools do so with the full knowledge of the fact that education in these schools is not free and therefore are prepared to pay the expenses.

Parents do send their children to private schools in the full knowledge that those schools are not free but the situation is arising where costs are escalating to such an extent that many of these schools are feeling the pinch very badly indeed. I want to say that in the town of Grahams-town in my constituency there are close on 2 000 pupils from all over this country in private schools. I do not think that if these schools had to close down it would be so easy for the Cape Province to accommodate those pupils. I should just like to give an indication of costs in relation to salaries, pensions and staff in the case of one school alone with a total of about 450 pupils in junior and high school. In 1968, the total costs were R132 000; by 1972, these had escalated to R232 613; this year the costs are in excess of R300 000 and it is anticipated that by 1977 these costs will be in the region of R405 000.

I believe that the private schools in Grahamstown and, indeed, all the private schools throughout the country, have performed a very great service to the country. They have produced men of standing throughout the history of our country. We have produced many Springboks; we have produced certain parliamentarians. The hon. member for Constantia sitting on my left is one. We have produced an Administrator of the Cape Province, Dr. Nico Malan, and many others. Private schools have produced a great diplomat and a general in the person of Gen. Everett Poole who was one of South Africa’s first representatives in Rome. I believe that these schools have a tradition. They are virtually the grass roots of education in South Africa. They began it. Many of them are well over 100 years old. They have brought our people together. St. Andrew’s College in Grahamstown, may I say, was the nucleus of Rhodes University. Rhodes University was born in St. Andrew’s College, and St. Andrew’s College, if I remember correctly, was instituted by an Act of the old Cape Parliament over 100 years ago and there is still a St. Andrew’s College Act today. I make this appeal: Make it optional to the schools to come under the aegis of the Minister of Education, particularly in the Cape Province and the Transvaal, where they receive no assistance at the moment. I believe that in the Free State, although there are no members of my party active in that provincial council, they have done a wise thing in subsidizing and maintaining and assisting their private schools to continue. We in Grahamstown introduced the first language laboratory in this country. Our schools, if one looks at the records, are perpetually among the finalists in the Maths Olympiad. The Afrox prize has been won by one of those schools. We are doing our best to give the very best education there. It is not a question of competing with the province, or that the province is providing an inferior type of education. People go to this type of school by tradition. Families belong to them. It is part of a way of life, but if it produces good citizens, I believe they should be kept going. I make this appeal to the hon. the Minister. He has heard me on it before privately, and I would really like him to endeavour to do something positive to assist these schools, which with the inflationary rate today, are reaching very dire straits.

Thank you very much for the second instalment, Sir. As you know, I refuse, of course, to let the word “discrimination” pass my lips, in or out of season. Now I am unfortunately unable to talk about essential differentiation in this case either.

Sir, I was trying to prove that we should give much more attention to the correct training and to higher training, bearing in mind that we should not allow education to suffer harm. I have before me the Manpower Survey No. 10 of 27 April 1973, the latest publication of the Department of Labour, which is very illuminating. According to it we have a shortage of 1 054 White men in engineering. This constitutes a drop, because according to No. 9 of 1971, at that time there was a shortage of 1 200. Then, as far as technicians are concerned, there is a shortage of 2 509. This shows us that we have a tremendous shortage of technically trained people, and ultimately the expansion and development of industries and therefore the provision of more employment opportunities to the less skilled people, depends on the engineers and the technicians. If we are rich in people of this kind, then we are also rich in employment opportunities. Let us look at one item here, namely the professional and semi-professional occupations. Here we have a total shortage of 8 002 White men and a shortage of 3 387 White women. But we can also say that 138 003 White men and 76 555 White women are already being employed. When one analyses this fine work, this Manpower Survey No. 10 of the Department of Labour, one comes to the conclusion that an improved distribution of training is possible and that we should certainly give more attention to this vocational training in view of the enormous success we have already achieved.

There are many hon. members in this House who represent an out and out rural constituency, as I do, and we who represent such rural constituencies realize that although we can lay claim to them, we do not really have the right to apply for services which, in other communities, are regarded as a matter of course. Because this is so, I have for many years been striving for the retention of the existing services at these small communities of ours. I have also said, on occasion, that I have entered into the spirit evinced by Abraham Lincoln in America many years ago when he said, “You must be proud of the town in which you live, to live for the town to be proud of you.” For that reason I am making an appeal to the hon. the Minister here this afternoon to assist us in regard to this very heavy blow that has struck us in Zastron. Sir, there is a fine domestic science school at Zastron which was established in 1938. That school has rendered yeoman service, and has done so for many years. That school has been made over to the province. An investigation was made and we want to believe that the decision to close this school was perhaps the correct one, although we were unable to go along with it. Now we want to come to the Minister again this afternoon and plead with him to reconsider this matter. In case there should be hon. members who are so stupid as to ask where Zastron is, I want to tell them that Zastron is one of the most picturesque little towns in the South-eastern Free State.

And where is the Free State?

Sir, the Free State is the province that is going to take the Currie Cup back to Bloemfontein next year! In any case, this school for domestic science has the finest buildings in picturesque surroundings with excellent gardens, and we simply cannot see those buildings standing empty as from next year. We therefore want to make an appeal to the hon. the Minister in his capacity as Minister of National Education and as the leader of our party in the Free State, to do everything in his power to do something to prevent those fine buildings from being neglected.

I only rise to convey sincere thanks, on behalf of the Transoranje Institute for Special Education in Pretoria and the Institute for the Deaf and Blind at Worcester, and the School for Epileptics at Kuils River for the aid the Minister has included in this appropriation. We know that in recent times the responsibility for the education of the handicapped child has to a large extent fallen to the Department of National Education. Now these three schools have often expressed concern, at co-ordinating meetings, about the fact that they employ staff who have studied with bursaries from the provincial education departments. Often the managements of these schools have had to take over and pay out those bursaries. As a result representations were made to the hon. the Minister some time ago and we know that since 1970 the department has made 20 bursaries available every year for teaching staff coming from the provincial schools to these schools I have just referred to. In this Budget a large amount, viz. R40 000, is being voted under the subhead “Miscellaneous Expenses” for the repayment of study loans to provincial education departments. It is a privilege for me to be able to say here that these schools are very grateful for what the department is doing in this regard. I believe that in future we shall be able to employ these people with an easier mind, because they are only trained in the provincial education department. I think that we are alleviating the concern felt by these headmasters because they now know that more money has been made available for the taking over of bursaries.

Mr. Chairman, in the very limited time that is left for me to reply before we suspend business, I shall try to do justice to the questions put to me. I do not know whether I shall be able to do so fully in all cases.

The hon. member for Gezina paid tribute to the service rendered by one of the officials of my department who is retiring, i.e. Mr. P. Grobbelaar, the Director of Cultural Affairs. I should like to identify myself with what he said. He also expressed thanks for the improved salary structure, and the hon. member for Hercules also identified himself with this later on. I am pleased that this matter was put in its proper perspective, for the hon. member for Durban Central referred somewhat disparagingly to the amounts of the salary increases which, he claimed, had already been reduced by now as a result of inflation. [Interjection.] The hon. member did not speak about the improved structure, and in my opinion the fact that the structure has been improved is actually the major advantage of the changes that have been effected.

The hon. member for Gezina also raised the question of the Education Year. By way of the amount of R100 appearing in the Estimates for this purpose, this item is merely being kept open. The idea is that we should wait and then come forward with an Education Year at an opportune time. In other words, the idea has not been abandoned yet.

The hon. member for Port Natal made a plea for history as a school subject. I agree with him on the formative value it has. I want to tell him that, under our policy of differentiated education, we have now made history compulsory as a school subject up to the end of the junior secondary school phase, i.e. Std. 7. This was not the case before. In the senior secondary school phase it will be possible for candidates choosing history as a subject to make a really thorough study of it, and we hope that we shall in that way produce better results than we have produced up to now. However, we are watching the position to see how matters develop.

The hon. member for Springs apologized for the fact that he would not be able to be here, but I am nevertheless going to reply briefly to the questions he put here. He put forward a meritorious idea in connection with awarding a prize to the newspaper or newspapers which, in our view, did most towards making a cultural contribution. The hon. member for Parktown supported him in that regard, and I just want to say that this is an idea which we shall have investigated further, although it is a difficult matter to determine a criterion. He also pleaded for increases in the literary prizes that are being awarded, and, in addition, made a plea in respect of the writing of a film script. We are indeed aware of the increased prices of books, and it does really stand to reason that this amount will have to be increased if we wish to continue the same service. This depends, of course, on the money available. In the case of the film script to which he referred, we have already raised this amount from savings which resulted on other items. In principle, therefore, we have already complied with his request. The hon. member also referred to the technical college at Springs. In this regard I just want to say that the Department of Public Works has been requested to purchase the grounds recommended by the board of that college, and that this is being proceeded with. Furthermore, the Department of Public Works has been requested to rent hostel accommodation for 60 apprentices; in addition to this, a complex of buildings is also being planned in Springs which, it is estimated, will cost R2,8 million when completed.

Mr. Chairman, next I come to what I consider to be two very important speeches, and I want to thank the hon. member for South Coast for having associated himself with the hon. member for Sasolburg in regard to the question of vocational education and, more specifically, technical education. I also want to congratulate him on his speech. It is obvious that he knew what he was talking about.

When I do it, then it is foreign.

If we conduct the debate on this level, we shall really be able to achieve something in the Education debate. The hon. member referred to the importance of vocational education, and I want to agree with him wholeheartedly that one of the major shortcomings in our education set-up up to now was the fact that we had divided control up to the secondary education level; that vocational education, commercial and technical education, fell under the old Department of Education, Arts and Science, whereas other education up to Std. 10 was the responsibility of the provinces. The hon. member will know that this Government took the courageous step of bringing about this transfer in April 1968. It has therefore become possible to remove the stigma, to which the hon. member quite correctly referred, which used to attach to vocational education. As the hon. member said, the position previously was that if one called upon a girl friend, one actually kept quiet about the fact that one was an apprentice. I hope that through our higher technical schools, through our higher commercial schools, we shall eventually—it will take long before we reach that level—also be able, like other countries, to produce people who will be able to become engineers and who will be able to hold their own in the spheres of business and industry. He also referred to the training of engineers; the hon. member for Hercules referred to it too. I want to tell him that this matter is, of course, connected with quite a number of other related matters. The hon. member, and also the hon. member for Sasolburg, referred to the fact that it was essential that people should not waste their time. The failure rate causes concern, and consequently it is necessary for one to study in a field for which one has an aptitude and shows an interest. This is one of the points that is also covered by the Van Wyk de Vries Report. We shall probably discuss the matter further. But, more specifically, as far as the training of engineers is concerned, we have various reports. We have the Straszacker Report; we have the A. W. Schumann Report, and we also have the report of the Human Sciences Research Council. My department has studied this matter very carefully and has been instructed to watch the position. We are convinced that at the moment the position does not cause concern yet, but that we shall very definitely have to bear in mind the question of advance planning, on which we are engaged. I also want to tell the hon. members for South Coast and Sasolburg that we appointed the Goode Committee in connection with the training and use of engineering technicians. Mr. Goode, as hon. members will know, was the previous president of the Chamber of Mines. I think that we are on the right track as regards achieving what was in fact advocated here by these two hon. members.

Next I come to the hon. member for Sandton, who pleaded for an English-language university in the Transvaal. I want to point out that the Cabinet decided a number of years ago that no new universities were to be founded until the two youngest universities, i.e. the University of Port Elizabeth and the Rand Afrikaans University, had become properly established, and that we had to wait for the Van Wyk de Vries Report in this regard. That reports contains certain recommendations, and they will obviously receive attention.

The hon. member also referred to the training of English-language teachers and pleaded for the founding of a teacher training college. This is, of course, a provincial matter for the Transvaal. To the best of my knowledge the Transvaal Provincial Administration is considering something of this nature at the moment.

There were a few hon. members who spoke about medical training. I shall come back to them later on, because I want to try to dispose of the other matters first.

The hon. member for Rissik spoke about genealogy and made a very interesting speech in this regard. He remarked, quite correctly, that the H.S.R.C.’s Institute for Historical Research and the Heraldry Council were in fact working on this matter. He asked me to support them. I shall keep his good suggestion in mind and try to lend a helping hand wherever I can.

The hon. member for Pretoria East pleaded for special provision for the highly gifted child. I want to say that the systems he quoted as examples, systems used in America and other countries abroad, are not without problems, and that the educationists in South Africa adopt the attitude that we hope to meet this problem through examination on a higher and on a standard grade which allows admission to our universities. The Joint Matriculation Board requires at least three subjects on the higher grade, but nothing prevents the student from taking on the higher grade all six or even seven of the subjects he is offering for matric. We are hoping to activate highly gifted pupils in this way to exert themselves more. I also want to tell the hon. member that, as regards his reference to more teachers for fewer pupils, the staff-provision scales are being reconsidered at the moment.

The hon. member for Johannesburg West pleaded for advertisements on T.V. to be allowed as soon as possible. I think I actually answered his question in anticipation when I spoke about the matter earlier on.

The hon. member for Smithfield raised the question of the school for domestic science at Zastron. He also discussed this matter with me in private. I understand his difficulties and I do not take it amiss of him that he raised the matter in this debate once again. However, he will understand that this is a matter which we must in actual fact settle with the provincial administration in question. Since he said that he was also referring himself to me as leader of the National Party in the Free State, I think this is a matter which he and I should rather try to settle on another level.

I am also indebted to the hon. member for Worcester for having conveyed to me the thanks of the Institutions for Special Education in connection with the takeover of bursary commitments. I do not know whether the additional R10 000 will be enough, but I think it will at least convince him of our bona fides in this matter.

The hon. member for Albany spoke about national servicemen and raised the problem which arises in that they are being called up for their compulsory military service in January and in July. Of course, this is a matter which does to a very large extent rest with my hon. colleague the Minister of Defence, and I think he should discuss it with him, too. If this matter gives rise to problems in practice, we shall have to look into it. As he said, the Rand Afrikaans University makes provision for semester courses, and in their case we do perhaps have less of a problem. However, this is not the case at all the universities.

The hon. member also said that private schools in certain provinces were not receiving the necessary financial support to enable them to keep going, and he asked whether it could not be made optional for these schools to receive assistance from the Department of National Education. I understand the hon. member’s problem and I am sympathetic in this regard, but education up to the Std. 10 level is not my responsibility and therefore I cannot do what he wants.

The hon. member for Pietermaritzburg North rather surprised me in that he as a Natalian raised the question of a three-term school year here. In 1966 my predecessor appointed a committee of inquiry which had to investigate the possibility of drawing up a more effective school calendar. The three-term school year actually resulted from this committee’s recommendations. The irony of the matter is that on that committee—which consisted of 28 persons, persons drawn from various bodies and others in their personal capacities—26 voted in favour of a three-term school year for a variety of reasons—which were motivated in the report. Two members voted against it. One of them was the representative of the Education Department of Natal. In other words, the Education Department of Natal had its own way in the decision we eventually took. I want to ask the hon. member a question in all friendliness. The hon. member objects to the fact that the Cabinet has allowed the Transvaal to experiment with the three-term school year. Suppose the Cabinet had decided that all four of the provinces were to implement the three-term school year, what would his attitude have been then? The problem is that we must be consistent. I now want to deal with this briefly. I want to tell the hon. member that there are very good educational considerations lying at the root of a three-term school year, although there are practical problems as well. Many of the private schools in South Africa—the hon. member said he would deal with them, but he never did since he was saved by the clock—are applying the three-term school year. As far as I know, they do not have insurmountable problems. I am not making a plea for it or against it, but I just want to say that, educationally speaking, there are certain merits in a three-term school year. The Transvaal decided to undertake this experiment on the basis of the commission’s recommendation and on the basis of the fact that its provincial council had unanimously asked for it. The Cabinet has decided that they may undertake this experiment if they wish. I appreciate all the problems that have been mentioned here, but I just want to say that the matter of the school calendar is not yet one of those which have been co-ordinated. That is why the concession was made that the Transvaal schools could make this experiment.

Next I come to the three hon. members who spoke about medical training. I must say that the tone of these speeches varied considerably. The hon. member for Rosettenville, whom I know as a very dispassionate and cool-headed person, became rather emotional about this matter this afternoon. He laid this at my door by saying it was attributable to poor planning that there were no doctors for the non-White population groups. I want to ask the hon. Senator … [Interjections.]

Don’t wish me out!

I beg your pardon, I mean “the hon. member”. I want to ask the hon. member whether he has forgotten what the position was in the days when his party was in power?

You have not progressed much in 26 years.

This afternoon the hon. member emerged in this House as a Rip van Winkle; he does not know what has happened in this country over the past 25 years. Under the U.P regime there were a few universities which, for the sake of “window dressing”, admitted a few non-White students.

“Window-dressing”?

Yes. It cannot be denied that there were certain universities under U.P. regime which did admit non-Whites, but justice was not really done to those population groups. In terms of the number of non-Whites who were there, they only contributed one tiny drop towards solving the problem. The hon. member will grant me this. What did the National Party Government do? When it took over the reins of government, it immediately put an end to this unsatisfactory position, and by introducing its Extension of University Education Act it created new facilities for every non-White population group.

Where? Only in Natal.

Yes, as far as medical training was concerned, it did create facilities in Natal. That is quite correct. For a long while that faculty had problems, but I can tell the hon. member that it is developing splendidly and making fine progress. Now the hon. member comes along and, with a gesture of the hand, he says: “We must throw open all the universities to the Black students and train them there.” However, the hon. member for Sandton, who spoke after him, said that we could not take in one more student at Wits. In fact, he asked for a new university to be founded there. How does one reconcile those things? The university which is full already is now to throw open its doors and admit non-White students from elsewhere.

Is the medical faculty full there?

I want to tell the hon. member for Rosettenville that the medical faculty in Natal is doing good work and making fine progress. It has now reached the stage where it has abolished the initial year which used to be additional to the ordinary training. The number of students being admitted is showing an increase, and it stands to reason that the number of students completing their studies will also show an increase. Apart from that I want to tell you that the training of non-White medical students is a matter which deserves our serious attention and to which we shall definitely give attention. However, unfortunately we cannot proceed along the lines suggested by the hon. member, i.e. throwing open the doors of our White universities to non-Whites.

Why not?

Because it is being alleged that there is not even sufficient room for our White students everywhere.

The hon. member for Walmer pleaded for a medical school in Port Elizabeth. Before dealing with that, I just want to ask the hon. member for Rosettenville whether he is aware that the doctor who is or was chief of health services in Lesotho—I do not know whether he has meanwhile secured another post—was trained at the Natal faculty.

That is a good thing.

For the information of the hon. member for Walmer, I want to announce that the Cabinet has decided that no consideration can be given to any additional medical faculty until the comprehensive extensions for medical training at the existing medical faculties have beer, completed and finalized.

How long will that take?

I cannot tell you how long it will take. As the hon. member knows, it is a lengthy process. One starts creating the facilities from the bottom, and then the necessary facilities have to be provided up to the sixth year. This has been in progress for quite some time, and at this stage it cannot take longer than a few more years. The hon. member also pleaded for the council members of universities who were being appointed by the Minister to be appointed in consultation with the local members of the House of Assembly. This is a matter which is in the discretion of the Minister. They are appointed by the State President, and I do not think that I can commit myself to the request which the hon. member made here.

He also raised the question of learning handicaps found in children, and referred to the report on children with minimal brain dysfunction. He will know that the initial care of these children is the responsibility of the provincial education departments. Only in a later phase, when problem cases which they cannot manage have been identified, does this become the responsibility of my department.

Mr. Chairman, may I put a question to the hon. the Minister? Could the hon. the Minister promise me that the State will, in terms of the Murray Report, do something in regard to these children with minimal brain dysfunction? I just want to ask what has happened in that regard.

The Murray Report recommended that the provinces care for three categories and that the fourth category be the responsibility of the Department of National Education. Meanwhile we are engaged in training people to take care of this matter. The universities are giving attention to it. The matter is therefore taking its course; this is not something which one can dispose of overnight.

Business suspended at 6.30 p.m. and resumed at 8.05 p.m.

Evening Sitting

Mr. Chairman, I actually need only a few minutes to reply to the last three hon. members. The hon. member for Welkom raised many important matters. He elaborated on the task and the equipment of the teacher, which in my opinion are very important aspects that can never be emphasized too much. Our development in this country depends on these aspects to a large extent. I am grateful to him for this. He also spoke about the selection of teachers. This is, of course, a matter that belongs with the provincial education authorities. I can assure the hon. member that we are taking cognizance of the points he raised, and so will the provincial education authorities, in so far as they are concerned in the matter.

The hon. member for Kimberley North made a very interesting speech on what we call the specialized cultural services. I may just say that before this hon. member became a member of this House, he served on one of the committees of a camping site near Windsorton, and that for this reason he is very conversant with the activities at these camps. He pleaded for the development of these camping sites and for the establishment of more such sites. I agree with him wholeheartedly. In fact, this is the objective of our department, but he will understand that it will cost a great deal of money and that in this respect we, too, are dependent on the Treasury. However, we are working along the lines suggested by him. He has indeed given a fine testimonial in respect of the activities of my department, for which I am very thankful to him.

Then. I should like to come to the hon. member for Rondebosch, who pleaded that we make it possible for all White universities in South Africa to accept non-White students on a post-graduate level. He pleaded, in the second place, for a Bantu language as a compulsory school subject. However, the hon. member must distinguish between two cases. He referred to what the Rand Afrikaans University had offered to do, namely to help non-White students with post-graduate studies under “qualified conditions”, as he put it. However, this relates to post-graduate students enrolled at their own universities. In other words, these students do not become students of the Rand Afrikaans University. That is the one side of the matter. The other side of the matter is that the Extension of University Education Act provides that if, say, a Bantu student wants to study in a field for which the University of Fort Hare, of Zululand, or of the North does not make any provision yet, he may be admitted to a White university, on condition that the White university wishes to accept him. The right of admission to a university still rests, to be specific, with that university itself. The admission is also subject to the approval of the Minister concerned, i.e. either the Minister of Bantu Education, or the Minister of Coloured Education, or the Minister of Indian Education, as the case may be. In other words, there are two possibilities. His proposal that the doors be thrown open so that they may enroll freely will, of course, be in conflict with the Extension of University Education Act, and it goes without saying that I cannot accept that. However, I do not wish to place any obstacles in the way of bona fide students who want to enroll at a White university because they are studying in a field for which their own universities do not make provision or for any other valid reason.

The second point mentioned by the hon. member was the question of a Bantu language as a compulsory school subject. I agree with him on the desirability of such a step; this would undoubtedly contribute to better understanding between Black and White. There is not the slightest doubt about this. However, in imposing an obligation on schools, one must at least be sure, too, that one has the necessary teachers. I know that at this stage we cannot do this yet. The hon. member has probably learned from newspaper reports that the Transvaal intends experimenting in its primary schools next year with a Bantu language on a voluntary basis. I hope we shall eventually be able to do so at more schools.

There is just one other matter that I should like to touch upon. While I was giving an exposition of the preparations we had made for television services, especially in regard to the training of technicians, I omitted to make an important appeal. While the Broadcasting Corporation itself is making preparations to meet its own needs—I need not enter into detail, for the information was recorded in last year’s Hansard and I also elaborated on it today—and while the Department of National Education is also making provision for the training of such technicians, industry has a responsibility, too, and this I want to emphasize. If they have employees who require additional training for providing television viewers with this service, it is their duty to get into touch with the technical colleges in their area and to see to it that that instruction is provided. Last year the Department of National Education withdrew teachers from all the major colleges in the country for special courses. While we also paid the salaries of their substitutes, we arranged courses for them at the Witwatersrand College for Advanced Technical Education. That is why I say it is also incumbent on the industrialists to see to it that apprentices in their employ are enrolled at technical colleges so that they may receive this training. In this regard I just want to mention two figures. I have before me data in connection with the coming examination enrolments for this year. I do not wish to tire hon. members with a lot of figures, but I nevertheless want to mention that my department has received examination enrolments from 823 technicians, i.e. persons with four years’ post-matric training. Although the first two years of apprentices’ training have been excluded because these students write an internal examination at that stage, we nevertheless have 1 880 examination enrolments from apprentices at the various colleges in our country. Hon. members can see, therefore, that we are making rapid progress towards meeting our needs. Whether our attempts are going to be adequate I cannot say at this stage, but I do believe that we have laid a sound foundation and that we can enter the future in all confidence. I am convinced that the television project will be undertaken in a very judicious and competent manner, and that we shall overcome such problems as may arise.

The hon. the Minister stated before the adjournment that the three-term system had been applied in the Transvaal as an experiment. Is this correct or was it the Cabinet’s decision to give all the provinces the right to decide what school calendar to use?

Mr. Chairman, that was not implicit in the decision but it does, of course, amount to that. The other three provinces preferred to retain the four-quarter system. As the Transvaal wanted to experiment with the three-term year, the Cabinet permitted them to carry on with that experiment.

Mr. Chairman, I just want to put a question to the hon. the Minister. There is one point to which he did not react in the course of his reply to this debate. Could the hon. the Minister give me an indication of the position in respect of the freedom of parents to decide what school their child will attend?

Mr. Chairman, the hon. member for Rondebosch is quite correct. I am sorry, I did make a note of that point, but overlooked it in my haste. He pleaded for parental choice in the place of compulsory mother-tongue education as it is embodied in the education policy at the moment. This policy was determined on the advice of, inter alia, the National Advisory Education Council, a body which consists of educationists of note and which was established for the purpose of advising the Minister. I think the hon. member will appreciate that at this stage I would sooner allow myself to be guided by the advice given by these educationists than by his personal opinion.

Votes agreed to.

Revenue Vote No. 25 and S.W.A. Vote No. 13.—“Social Welfare and Pensions”:

Mr. Chairman, this is a very important Vote in that it constitutes one of the largest items of expenditure in the entire Budget amounting to R255 million. This money is intended to bring relief mainly to those persons who are in need of assistance. I should like to take advantage of this opportunity to congratulate the hon. member for Stellenbosch on his appointment as Deputy Minister. I believe that this will be the first occasion on which he will participate in the debate on this Vote in his new capacity. We congratulate him on his appointment and wish to express the hope that he will do all in his power in his new capacity to give as much assistance as possible to those who require assistance under this Vote. The position at present is that the group which is feeling the severest effects of the present high cost of living is the group requiring assistance, the needy and the neglected, and as far as children are concerned, the deserted and the ill-treated children. These people all look to this department and to the hon. the Minister and his Deputy for help. If I remember correctly, I must mention here too that the hon. the Minister himself will also be participating in this debate on this Vote for the first time in his new capacity as Minister of Social Welfare and Pensions. We are looking forward to hearing some important announcements from him in this field.

If we look at the position in South Africa today we realize that when there is galloping inflation the people who are hardest hit are invariably those at the lowest end of the income scale. We realize that these people are at present experiencing a great deal of hardship. Many of them who have made some provision for their old age find today that that provision is hopelessly inadquate. They find that their savings are rapidly disappearing and that they perforce have to lower their standard of living. It is a great tragedy to think that many of these people are now having to live in poverty because of the rapid escalation in the cost of living. I think it is a poor reflection on our country that many of these people who have given productive service to their country should in the twilight of their lives be subjected to this poverty. In many instances these people are suffering because of the amendments that have been effected from time to time to the means test. Basically, however, if one looks at the situation, one will realize that there have been large increases in food prices as well as in clothing prices, travelling costs, medical expenses, rail tariffs and other expenses that have taken effect recently. This has all meant that these people have had to exhaust their life’s savings and have had to rely to a greater extent on outside assistance. Indeed, Mr. Chairman, if it were not for the outside assistance which is often rendered to them by welfare organizations, many of these people would certainly find themselves in a desperate situation. For instance, there is the assistance that is rendered in certain spheres by welfare organizations in the shape of home help services and meals-on-wheels services. These are ancillary services which are aimed at keeping these people within the community for as long a period as possible. I had always understood this to be the policy of previous Ministers, and I assume that it will be the policy of the present Minister. But for these people to remain within the community as long as possible, it is certainly necessary to see that assistance is rendered to these organizations which in turn are giving this type of assistance to these people. I notice that provision is made in the Estimates for an amount of R120 000 for service centres, and then there is a small item of R8 000 for clubs for the aged. Sir, both the service centres and the clubs for the aged are performing a very important service in assisting these people to remain in the community. In a statement that was made early last year, the hon. the Deputy Minister of Social Welfare and Pensions indicated that a new basis of subsidy was to be announced in connection with service centres. To my knowledge I have not seen any details as to what assistance is actually to be granted to these service centres, and I therefore ask the hon. the Minister to give this Committee some indication as to what is envisaged in so far as these service centres are concerned, particularly in regard to the meals-on-wheels and the home help services which are being rendered by the welfare organizations. Sir, the hon. the Minister has a division in his Department for the care of the aged. When this division was announced a few years ago, the then Minister of Social Welfare and Pensions, Dr. the Hon. C. P. Mulder, indicated that there was a great need for such a division, and indeed in a document that was subsequently published, setting out the Government’s policy on the care of the aged, it was stated that after a certain amount of research it was found that serious gaps existed in our services to the aged. When one looks at the existing position, one realizes immediately that there are still many serious gaps to be filled as far as services for the aged are concerned. I think there is not a single member of this House who has not at some time or other been approached for assistance by social and other pensioners in dire need of assistance. I hope, therefore, that the hon. the Minister will give this Committee an indication as to the functions of the division for the care of the aged and that he will indicate what progress has been made in this regard, because obviously this is a growing problem. We know that the percentage of old people in the community is rapidly increasing. Recent surveys, following on the 1970 Census, have shown that there are some 400 00 White persons over the age of 65 years in the Republic at the present time. This is therefore a challenge which has to be met to ensure that these people are adequately cared for. As the situation exists at the present time, it would appear that there is still much work to be done; that there is much research to be done, and that there is much action required from the Government to assist these people.

Another aspect which I would like to bring to the attention of the hon. the Minister are certain anomalies which exist in regard to the means test. Unfortunately, one of our disadvantages in South Africa is that the system we have at present is an out-dated system in comparison with the systems in other parts of the Western world. Consequently we have a means test which has to be amended from time to time by regulation: indeed, amending regulations were published in the Government Gazette again on 16 August of this year. I would like to deal with some of the matters concerning the means test, as I wish to indicate that this system is one which will always cause anomalies to arise from time to time, irrespective of the amendments that take place. I wish to say tonight that I believe that as the result of our present system, as a result of the situation in which aged people find themselves today, the hon. the Minister should consider the appointment of a commission to investigate the present system and the socio-economic position of pensioners in the Republic of South Africa, and to make recommendations to improve the system or to substitute a new system. I hope at a later stage to be able to give some indication in regard to a new system. I believe that it is imperative, if we are to meet the challenge of an urbanized community, that we have a system which is able to meet that challenge.

The question of anomalies in the means test is something I particularly want to bring to the attention of the Minister, because it is possible for him by regulation to avoid some of these anomalies, or to rectify them. First of all, in regard to the increases that were granted as from 1 December 1974 as announced by the hon. the Minister of Finance in his Budget speech, and which we of course welcome because it is an alleviation of the present position, one of the points which was not covered at all was the fact that it appeared that the means test was to remain unaltered. Consequently some difficulties still exist, one of which is the situation where the minimum pension is to be increased. This will mean that the gap between the borderline cases which just fail to qualify and those which do just qualify will be greater [Time expired.]

It is obvious that the hon. member has not finished his speech and I would like to afford him the opportunity to do so.

Sir, I would like to thank the hon. the Minister for the courtesy of allowing me to continue. The position is that the minimum pension will be increased to R17 a month, and where we have the situation that the income from pensions from other sources is taken into account, if that person receives an increase in his private pension, it could result in his losing the pension he is receiving. Let me give some examples. If a person receives a private pension of R80 a month and he has assets of below R9 800, such person will qualify for a pension of R14 a month, plus the extra R5 from 1 December, which will amount to R19 a month. Should that person however receive an increase—and some of these private pension funds have been granting increases, particularly to widows—of only R4 a month this would increase the private pension to R84 a month. Such pensioner would lose the R19 a month old age pension and would then in fact be R15 a month worse off. The point is that some of these people who make application for an old age pension are receiving a private pension from another source at the time of the application. They are then granted the old age pension, but when that private pension is increased, they are subject to a similar reduction in the old age pension until eventually that pension disappears altogether. I should like to suggest that the hon. the Minister consider fixing that amount of private pension at the figure at the time of the application, just as the value of property is fixed, based on the municipal valuation, at the time the person makes such application. In other words, where the local authorities from time to time increase the municipal valuations, such person does not lose his pension or become subject to a reduction in the old age pension. The person who is receiving a private pension is at a distinct disadvantage.

We come now to the position of the free income limits that are permitted. In the light of the present situation I believe these figures are unrealistic. It is time that this ceiling was raised. Indeed, the free income limit was increased so as to bring about a greater degree of comparison between the person who has paid into a private pension fund and is receiving a private pension, and the person who has accumulated certain assets and is not receiving such a pension. For instance in the case of a widow who has R22 400 invested but does not receive a pension from any other source, the income from that investment is not taken into account. If her investment earns 10% per annum, it will bring a return of R186 per month. If this widow applies for a pension, she will qualify for a full pension of R57 per month as a result of the new increased figure. If she is over 64 years of age, an additional R11 per month is payable and she will then receive an old age pension of R68 per month. Yet a widow receiving R83 per month from a private pension fund receives nothing, even if she has no assets whatsoever. She will qualify for no pension whatsoever because her private pension exceeds the celing of R82 per month. We therefore have the situation where a person who has an investment earning R186 per month can qualify for the maximum pension whereas a person receiving a private pension of R83 per month will receive nothing.

This leads me to another point. I want to refer to the position of civil pensioners, Railway pensioners, persons receiving compensation in terms of the mining diseases scheme and widows receiving R70 per month. These pensioners receive nothing by way of old age pension because they are specifically precluded although their-income is below the ceiling of R82 per month. Even where their income is below R72 per month, they receive nothing as far as a social pension is concerned. However, if a person is receiving a private pension of R72 per month, he can qualify for a pension of R22 per month plus the extra R5 from 1 December. This will amount to a pension of R27 per month in addition to the pension such a person is receiving from a private source. Why is there this discrimination against a person who is receiving a civil pension, a Railway pension or a miner’s pension? These people are suffering the effects of the ravages of inflation just as much as any other person.

We are trying to encourage older people to remain in productive employment for as long as possible. Some of these people are self-employed. The earnings of a person who is an employee are disregarded if such person is over 70 in the case of a male or 65 in the case of a female. However, if a person is self-employed, such person’s full net profit is taken into account, and there are instances where these persons do not qualify at all for a pension. I believe this is discrimination against people who have the initiative to remain self-employed even beyond the age of 70, because they are treated differently to the person who is in normal employment.

In the few minutes left to me I should like to refer to the system and the need for a change in the system. I suggest that the hon. the Minister should institute a full investigation into the present system and into the socio economic situation of the aged in South Africa. I believe that it is important to remember that it is some 30 years ago since the Select Committee on Social Security met in 1944 and made various observations which I shall not quote tonight. However, it is important to note that it was observed at that time that a contributory pension scheme should eventually be introduced in South Africa. I am not alone in the view that it is necessary to change the system, because if one looks at the August edition of Social Work /Maatskaplike Werk one finds an editorial in this little booklet, which is the official journal of the social workers of South Africa, under the heading “Pensioene—’n nuwe bedeling gevra”. The editorial suggests that other methods should be employed. We know that from time to time some Government spokesmen have said that if we have a contributory system, it will be moving towards a welfare state. It is interesting to note that the editorial also refers to this fact and states that this is a cliché which should be dropped because obviously, under present-day circumstances, it is necessary to think of other methods whereby pensioners can be assisted and that a new system be devised to render such assistance. If one looks at the position one will soon realize that one of the big disadvantages of the present system is that different departments are looking after the different racial groups. When one is overseas or meets people from overseas it is difficult to justify the wide disparity in the pensions of the Whites on the one hand and the Coloureds, the Indians and the Africans on the other hand. Should we have a contributory system, it would eliminate the present discrimination. This hon. the Minister is only responsible for the White group, although it does happen that whenever an increase is granted to the White group a smaller increase is granted also to non-White groups. If we have a contributory system more funds will be available to pay more realistic rates of pension and the means test could eventually be abolished, because it would mean that all persons could claim a pension as of right when they reach retirement age. This would constitute a system of compulsory saving, something which is beneficial to the country. Moreover the people themselves will enjoy a degree of security that is missing at the present time. Many people today who think that they have made provision for their old age realize after a few years that it is hopelessly inadequate. They are now looking into the future with fear and trepidation and who wonder what the future holds for them in the light of our present situation. The question of the discrimination in the pensions paid to the different racial groups would disappear if one had a contributory scheme, because it would obviously be based on and related to the contributions they have made to the fund and the level of income they had when they reached retirement age. Consequently you could have minimum benefits and maximum benefits calculated on a sliding scale which will be related to the amount the person has paid into the fund and the salary or wage he was receiving at the time of retirement. Consequently, it will be on a similar basis as other social security legislation, such as the Unemployment Insurance Fund where we also have a sliding scale which is determined by the amount the person earned at the time of retirement and the amount he contributed. This will be one of the advantages of establishing a system whereby people will be able to make a contribution to their old age. I do not think that there is a great deal of difference between this system and the attitude of the Government that private pension schemes must be encouraged. They obviously believe that the private pension schemes should be encouraged, the ultimate aim being to ensure that all persons are covered by some form of pension benefit [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, I should like to associate myself with the sentiments expressed by the hon. member for Umbilo in so far as they concern the hon. the Minister and the Deputy Minister. We want to wish them well in this, the first debate in which they have to take charge of this Vote for the first time I can candidly tell the Opposition that we on this side of the House have no doubt that it will be proved in the course of this debate that these two men are the right people in the right place at the right time.

I do not want to follow the hon. member’s favourite theme any further, but I want to discuss another matter. This concerns a new phenomenon which appeared in recent years in our South African social work, particularly on account of American influence, i.e. the creation, or the establishment, of crisis clinics or crisis services. I want to refer to this matter without mentioning the names of organizations rendering the services concerned. In the first place, we are dealing with a group of individuals who are honestly and sincerely interested in the well-being of their fellowmen, but who are not prepared to support the existing family and child care or other welfare organizations. They go ahead and establish new institutions or new welfare organizations some of which are welfare organizations in name only. They do this with the intention of dealing immediately with crises in the lives of individuals when they arise. These then are the so-called crisis clinics, or places where they apply the methods of crisis clinics. This is being done while the large majority of these crises experienced by individuals could be handled by the existing welfare bodies, more particularly the family and child care services. We are dealing here with a dangerous tendency, a tendency indicating a serious overlapping in the services which are being rendered to our people in distress. It is typical that a person who experiences such a crisis situation will clash for some reason or other with the smallest and finest community, i.e. his own family. This crisis situation is then projected on to the wider community in which he has to live. He discovers that he is unable to adjust himself there either, and consequently he finds himself in a position of loneliness. Therefore I do not deny the occurrence of so-called crises in peoples’ lives What I am concerned about is the channels which are established through which this treatment has to be administered. All of us therefore regarded it as a step in the right direction when the Department of Social Welfare and Pensions established a crisis clinic in Hill-brow, in Johannesburg, a few years ago. Time will not allow me to deal with this specific clinic; I trust that the hon. the Minister will probably be in a position to tell us what progress has been made there and what the future planning in this regard entails.

Against the background of what I have said I nevertheless want to make a few remarks. In the first place, I want to issue a serious warning against the establishment of new organizations with a view to the development of this kind of assistance to people experiencing crises. In the second places, I want to urge the hon. the Minister that, should the department find it advisable or essential to continue with the clinic that has been started or to establish more clinics of this kind, he should not do so without the family and child care organizations being intensely involved in such a clinic. I believe these clinics should really only be an extension of our family and child care activities. In the third place, I want to suggest that the provision which exists in our legislation at present to eliminate overlapping when new organizations are established, is inadequate to prevent the registration of this kind of organization I have referred to, or to enforce coordination as far as they are concerned. For that reason I am grateful that we have learned about the appointment of the Van Rooyen Commission which has to report to the hon. the Minister on the question of fund raising and activities among welfare organizations. I want to express the hope that an outcome of this report will be an emphasizing of the need for an urgent revision of our National Welfare Act. What is of particular importance to me, is for the community to take its rightful place in any future planning which may flow from any such amendment of the law; and then not only the community in general, but more particularly the family and child care organizations to which justice should be done within that framework as well. I have good reason to make this request. Our welfare work in South Africa has its own particular traits and characteristics which have developed through a long history in which church organizations and voluntary welfare organizations initially undertook welfare work in this country. It was only at a later stage that the State became involved. As a matter of fact, this only happened in the ’fifties when, as far as State contribution is concerned, the voluntary organizations were given full assistance to fulfil their share of the contract. The establishment and development of our welfare services testify to community service in the true sense of the word.

There is a real need today for the voluntary services and the State to co-operate with each other. For that reason one is concerned about a few things which constitute a threat both to the State and to voluntary services at the moment. In the first place, I want to express the thought that the State runs the risk if it moves too far or too rapidly in developing its own welfare programme, of following the path towards the so-called social security pattern of various Western countries. For that reason it is essential that the Minister of Social Welfare and Pensions considers this imminent danger when asking the Cabinet for money to carry out his programme. I see a second problem which is developing and that is the attitude of the public, namely, that because our people are experiencing very favourable circumstances at the moment, because there is work for everyone, because there does not seem to be any obvious poverty, it is no longer necessary for the public to contribute generously to the services of voluntary organizations. A third phenomenon which is manifesting itself, is the development of specialization in social work. We find that provision is being made for individuals to an increasing extent, for example, for the alcoholic, the drug addict, the institutionalized individual and those in the community with physical and other handicaps, and for each of those needs a voluntary welfare organization is established. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, I am entering the debate at this early stage because I deem it necessary to take a stand at the outset of the discussions in regard to the administration of the department that was recently entrusted to my care. Before doing so, I should like to express my sincere thanks to the hon. members for Umbilo and Westdene for their kind words on the occasion of my appointment as Minister. I appreciate their co-operation and good wishes. In addition, I should like to associate myself with the good wishes extended by the hon. member for Umbilo to the hon. member for Stellenbosch on his appointment as Deputy Minister. I hope that we shall develop into a formidable team in course of time and I am sure that he will fully justify the trust that has been reposed in him. I should have liked to leave the responsibility for this debate to him, but because this also happens to be the first debate on this Vote which I am handling, I shall deal with certain aspects of it, and others I shall then leave to him.

As far as the general guidelines for the administration of the department are concerned, I just want to say the following: It has become traditional in South Africa for welfare work not to be a onesided undertaking by the State, for it to be based on co-operation between the State, religious denominations and private welfare organizations. I want to make it quite clear at the outset that, after having acquainted myself with all the implications of this policy, I do not advocate any deviation from it. In this regard I want to mention too that the investigation referred to by the hon. member for Umbilo, the investigation into the way in which and the extent to which the State should provide financial support for such welfare services rendered by private welfare organizations is expected to be concluded towards the end of the year. The details will then become available in due course. In this way we hope to develop a system of subsidizing which will give general satisfaction. In making this statement, I want to emphasize that I am not advocating any rigid policy. I shall not adhere to the views of my previous colleagues merely because they held those views. In the interests of the cause we are all trying to serve, there will have to be adjustments and renewals which can be justified in the light of the experience we shall gain in course of time and in the light of scientific research.

Now I want to come to my standpoint in regard to the care of the aged. I want to reassure the hon. member for Umbilo at once, for I too support the well-known policy of the Government in regard to the care of the aged, namely that the aged should remain a part of the community as long as is humanly possible because they form an integral and important part of the community. It is in their own interests that they should participate in the activities of the community. For that reason I believe that that policy should be upheld, developed and adapted where necessary. It is obvious that in order to make this possible, many services will have to be created for them in the community, or will have to be expanded and developed where such services already exist. It is obvious too that the service centres referred to by the hon. member for Umbilo are a very important element—perhaps the most important element—in this set-up. I do not want to elaborate on this. I hope that the hon. the Deputy Minister will deal with this aspect in greater detail at a later stage. I just want to make a general statement. Constitutional care of the aged is obviously indispensable. However, we shall give preference to the infirm aged, without casting aside those who are not yet infirm, but who do have a claim to this care. As far as I have been able to judge, the department’s policy in regard to care of the aged is very successful at the moment and is functioning satisfactorily. For that reason I am prepared, at the present stage at least, to maintain and continue that policy. In this regard I want to quote from a letter written by Dr. Slater, chairman of the Cape Peninsula Welfare Organization for the Aged, to The Argus on 3 September this year, with reference to an article which had been published on “Meals on Wheels”. He said the following, amongst other things—

I think that generally speaking we shall have to concede that this is true. Unfortunately there are cases here and there, which we all regret very much, where aged persons do not receive the care to which they are entitled, where even the best intentions are not realized. But these are the exceptions rather than the rule. However, in this regard I want to emphasize too that it is the duty of every citizen of the State to provide or to try to provide for his old age, in his own interests and in those of his family and of the community. What is done for him by the State should then be merely supplementary. This is an important premise which we must emphasize at all times. I do not want to go into the points raised by the hon. member for Umbilo at this stage, but this links up with what was said by him as well. The premise should be that we provide supplementary services; that we should not assume the sole responsibility for the care of these people whose welfare is a matter of concern to him.

As far as child welfare is concerned. I adhere to the policy of trying to care for the child within the family context. The Department of Social Welfare and Pensions has to deal with approximately 54 000 children every year. I do not know whether this is an achievement for the department or a blot on our community. The vast majority of these 54 000 children can be cared for in their parental homes with the aid of the department. Others are placed in foster-care or in children’s homes. Research into certain aspects of child welfare will result in the improvement of existing services and in new directions where necessary, as I have already indicated. Accordingly, I want to hold out the prospect here of a new child welfare programme which we hope to announce in the near future. According to the information available to me, it seems that the Children’s Act will also have to be amended in certain respects. We are working on this and we shall be able to produce the necessary amendments in due course. I also want to announce that we intend to hold a conference on child welfare in 1975. However, I want to emphasize one matter which is causing me great concern. If one looks at the data, one cannot help feeling concerned about the fact that the maintenance duty of parents, and particularly of fathers, is in my opinion being badly neglected in many cases.

As far as the care of handicapped persons is concerned, the department is only responsible for adult handicapped persons who are not certifiable in terms of the Mental Health Act. We do so mainly by paying disability allowances or disability pensions to these people. I want to mention that a thorough investigation has been instituted into this matter, which has brought many interesting facts to light, but which has also indicated several tendencies which give cause for concern. I do not want to go into the details of that report now, but it is something to which we shall have to give attention in due course.

†Mr. Chairman, since my earliest parliamentary days I have known the hon. member for Umbilo as a man who has advocated a national contributory pension scheme. He has always been concerned about the plight of the aged, the neglected, the ill-treated and the other categories of the less fortunate members of our community which he mentioned in his speech. I have great appreciation for the work that he has done over many, many years. It is of course not the type of work that is sensational and catches headlines. All the same, the task he has taken upon himself is a very important one and he has rendered very good service in this respect.

Hear, hear!

I have known him as the chief spokesman on welfare matters but several other hon. members on that side of the House have over the years also advocated the introduction of a national contributory pension scheme as being a solution to all the problems concerning social welfare. We know of course that a national contributory pension scheme is the official policy of the United Party.

The hon. member for Umbilo had an interview with The Argus on 18 February of this year, during which he stated, inter alia:

The hon. member for Jeppe, in a speech which he made on 19 February in this House, referred to the same matter, and I quote from his Hansard:

Mr. Chairman, it is very interesting to recall that on 29 January 1965 I, as an ordinary member of this House, in replying to a motion moved by the hon. member for Umbilo on this very same issue, maintained that in motivating his motion he had failed to prove that a national contributory pension scheme would ensure greater benefits than our social pensions. I further maintained that he had failed to explain convincingly how his scheme would be financed and how the administration would function. It is interesting that tonight I, as the responsible Minister, have to take a stand on this very same issue.

I hope you have changed your stand.

Sir, before I state my case, I would like to say that the hon. member for Jeppe was not correct when he made these claims, because in the countries which he mentioned there is not the Utopia which he described here to us.

*Mr. Chairman, the standpoint adopted in this regard by the Government, by all previous Ministers of Social Welfare, is very well known. We are most strongly opposed to any national contributory scheme which could promote the possibility of socialism, and this has also been admitted here by the hon. member for Umbilo himself. I want to tell him that this is my standpoint as well. But after having studied the documents since I became the responsible Minister, and more particularly the findings of the Cilliers Commission which arose from the speech made here by the Minister of Finance about the transferability of pensions and the preservation of pensions, it does seem to me that something should be done about this problem. What I am now saying, bears some relation to certain of the points raised by the hon. member for Umbilo, without specifically replying to them; that I shall do later; but in stating my policy I want to tell him that I also support the policy of encouraging private pension funds as far and as actively as possible.

I want to tell him that at the end of 1971 there were no fewer than 6 943 private pension funds in existence, so we are making progress in this field. How efficient they are, is something else again, of course; one might have to go into that. But I want to state here that having considered all the factors that are at stake. I have come to the conclusion, and I have obtained the Cabinet’s approval in this regard, that I may institute an investigation into a scheme to which both employers and employees may contribute. If any employees of the State are involved, the State too will naturally be involved to this extent, but it will definitely not be a scheme to which the State will contribute on a basis comparable to the contributions of the others; i.e. not a scheme which would again result in the State’s having to make provision for employers and employees who should have tried to provide for themselves while they were actively involved in the economy. This, then, will be my reply to this problem which we have experienced for many years, that we should institute a scientific and a thorough investigation on this basis. Sir, I shall content myself for the time being with these initial remarks. I have now stated my standpoint and I shall follow the rest of the debate with interest.

I have just listened with a great deal of interest to what the hon. the Minister had to say. I do believe that his last announcement, that he is contemplating an investigation into the possibility of the State administering a scheme although not contributing to it, for pensions for persons who are not covered by private pension schemes, is a step forward and one which we welcome very much. The hon. the Minister has said earlier in his speech that the Government is strongly in favour of persons making provision for their own old age. That is something with which we on this side of the House agree thoroughly. That is one of the reasons why we have always been in favour of a contributory pension scheme rather than to have to rely on State social pensions and State old-age pensions to supplement the pensions given under private schemes. To our way of thinking, the ideal will be reached when all members of the community are covered by a contributory pension scheme, whether those members of the community be White, Coloured or Black. The Minister did, not indicate the nature of his thinking about this State-administered scheme, but I do hope that when this investigation goes forward it will not be applied only to one race group.

The investigation will cover all race groups.

I am very glad to hear that and I think we can welcome the Minister’s announcement very heartily.

Within the framework of the Government’s present policy, which is to supplement by means of social pensions the pensions paid from private schemes, I do tonight want to make one or two pleas. Sir, I was recently approached by a widow who is receiving from a private pension scheme a widow’s pension amounting to R39 a month. This widow, because she has assets, assets which had been left to her by her late husband and which consist mainly of a property which for sentimental reasons she does not want to dispose of, plus a cash income of only R25 a month, finds herself in a position that with this extremely limited income, R25 a month in cash income and R39 as a pension, that she is prevented on account of the means test from receiving any social pension or old-age pension.

This is the position of people who receive pensions from private schemes, pensions which unfortunately are still on a fixed basis—in other words, which are not subject to any escalation conditions. This is a position that I find is very common and one which is causing considerable hardship on account of the relatively low level of the free-income limitation. This is not what I primarily wanted to say in regard to this particular widow. What I actually wanted to say was that when she spoke to me, she referred to her income of R39 per month as being barely sufficient to feed her dogs. If she has two dogs, which she has, she is not exaggerating in that statement. I went to the trouble, after she had made that statement to me, to find out exactly what it does cost to keep a dog. I find that to keep a medium-sized dog like a Dobermann pinscher in a kennel in the Cape Peninsula costs 80 cents per day—in other words, R24 per month. If you relate that R24 per month to the old-age pension, it appears to me that the Government considers that the maintenance of an old-age pensioner is roughly the equivalent of the maintenance of 2⅜ dogs.

What an unfair comparison!

That is a mathematical calculation. When you take into account the fact that the dog’s diet consists mainly of horsemeat, offal, dry bread or dry biscuits and water, that the dog uses sacking as bedding, a kennel or a basket as housing, that he needs no furniture, no carpets, curtains, blankets sheets or clothing, no kitchen utensils, no refrigerator or stove, no bathroom or toilet, that it does not require to pay for any of its entertainment, it does not use a telephone, that it provides its own transport free or when it has to use public transport usually gets it free, then if you really look at the comparison between a dog’s life and a pensioner’s life, you will see that the old-age pension in absolute terms cannot be described as anything but completely inadequate. When I say that, I do not want it to be interpreted in any sense that I am belittling our aged friends or comparing them with the canine species. I am merely using this example as a standard to measure the problem that old-age pensioners have in maintaining themselves. I should like to say if the ratio between the old-age pensions of Whites and what it costs to maintain a dog is 2⅜: 1, then when it comes to the Coloured pensioner the ratio comes much nearer to parity, and when it comes to African pensioners it becomes quite appalling.

Over the last five years the cost of living as measured by the consumer price index has risen by 48%—in other words, by nearly one-half. Food has risen by 62% or by nearly two-thirds. Over the same period the basic old-age pension has risen from R33 to R57 per month or by approximately 72%. In other words, it has kept ahead of food prices and fairly well ahead of the consumer prices. To me that indicates that the Government thinks in two directions. It indicates to me that the Government has realized, firstly, that the basic level of social pensions has been too low and that it is necessary to increase that basic level at a faster rate than the cost of living is increasing and, secondly, it indicates to me that the Government has realized that the rise in the cost of living has to be compensated in some way by increases in pension. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, after the rather inflammatory speech made by the hon. member for Constantia, I shall try to participate in this debate in a more calm and collected manner. It is easy to become quite emotional as the hon. member did, because elderly people are the very people all of us are particularly interested in, the more so when we consider in a realistic way the ever-increasing problem for South Africa in this regard. I want to admit that it is perhaps the ideal of every Government to ensure a carefree old-age for everyone through an assured income. The question remains: How can we achieve this ideal? The hon. member for Umbilo suggested a national contributory pension scheme tonight. I want to say that on the face of it this would be the ideal solution, i.e. if it is practically possible. Last year the hon. member introduced a private motion in which he said, among other things, that it should be a scheme to which the employer, the employee and the State should contribute. I take it that the hon. member had this in mind when he was speaking tonight and that it was perhaps his intention to say so. When discussing this matter last year, he said the following, and I quote from the 1973 Hansard, column 809—

I am afraid that if it were to be a scheme to which the State should contribute, we would find ourselves in exactly the same position as we have at present where the State is also held responsible for and has to see to it that every person receives a livable pension. If the State has to accept this responsibility, it would mean that no one would want to make provision for his old age any longer, because the State would take care of it. To me this is just where the danger lies, in that we would be moving closer towards becoming a socialistic state where all the responsibility for a person to take care of himself would be transferred to the State. Yesterday during the discussion on the Vote Community Development we heard repeatedly that the State should accept responsibility for the provision of housing to every person who asks for it. This afternoon during the discussion on the Vote National Education we were also told that the State should accept responsibility to see to the education of every child up to university level and everything it involves. I want to admit that, had I been a member of the Opposition, I would probably have done so too, because it is easy for the Opposition for political reasons to hold the State responsible for everything. Where they are pleading for all these things for which the State should accept responsibility, I wonder whether they are pleading for a socialistic state. I should very much like to know this.

I want to come back to the scheme advocated by the hon. member for Umbilo. I want to say that, with such a scheme, provision will probably have to be made both for Whites and for non-Whites. In this very matter lies a major problem where we are dealing with thousands of casual workers for whom the State will also have to accept responsibility. As was said by the hon. the Minister, we have at present almost 7 000 pension schemes already involving approximately 2,25 million people. It would probably have been the ideal position if the benefits of all those private pension schemes could have been transferable from one pension fund to another. Many problems are being created on account of the fact that these benefits are not transferable. It often happens that a person is dismissed or resigns after he has accumulated reasonable benefits in a particular pension scheme. When taking up employment with the next employer, he has to start from scratch. One can appreciate that there are many problems involved in the transferability of pension benefits on account of the fact that these benefits vary from one employer to another. One will also find the case where a highly paid official of, for example, a mining group joins a much smaller undertaking and consequently the benefits he obtains at the smaller undertaking may differ greatly from the benefits offered by the large mining group. Likewise, we find too that the benefits of the Public Service differ from those of the private sector. Not only will the benefits be affected, but also the contributions made to such existing funds, which then have to be transferred to other funds. Some employers make it one of the conditions of service that the employee will make no pension contributions, while an employee of another undertaking will have to make considerable contributions towards his pension benefits himself, However, we are grateful for the announcement the hon. the Minister made here to the effect that inquiries will be made into a scheme to be contributed to only by the employer and which will solve the problems concerning the transferability of pension funds and pension rights from one pension scheme to another. If I may say so, this is exactly what I suggested last year by way of a motion, i.e. that inquiries should be made into the possibility of the transfer-ability of pension benefits from one fund to another. I am referring here to Hansard, 1973, column 838, where I asked the Minister to investigate this possibility.

You sound very calm and collected now.

If the hon. member for Durban Central is unable to read it himself, he can come and see me after the debate when I shall read it to him. We welcome the investigations the hon. the Minister has ordered, and we hope that this will solve to a large extent a great many of those problems which accompany old age. We hope that if a fund of this nature becomes a reality it would be possible for it to be self-sufficient in the sense that the employer and the employee would be the only contributors and that the State would merely be responsible for administering it.

Mr. Chairman, I would like to join with those who have already extended congratulations and good wishes to the hon. the Minister and the hon. the Deputy Minister, who have taken over these very responsible posts. I would like to say to them that we wish very much that the sentiments which have been expressed already, will bear fruit in the years which lie ahead of us. The attitude of the hon. the Minister, who has had to change gear rapidly from working in the field of national education most of the day to this Vote, shows a great deal of flexibility. We were very glad to hear that he is going to adopt this attitude of flexibility and not in every case stay with the decisions which have been made by some of his predecessors. This augurs well for the future, because this is a most important area which touches the lives of all of our people.

Mr. Chairman, it is a little disappointing, however, that, having made that statement of flexibility, one hears from the hon. the Minister that he cannot agree with the introduction, or even the further inquiries into, a national contributory scheme. As long ago as 1962, the Progressive Party adopted this viewpoint in a resolution as part of its policy. It has been advocating this ever since, and I would like personally to support very strongly the arguments advanced by the hon. member for Umbilo again tonight. This in itself would be a direct answer to the situation in relation to the gap between the pensions paid to Whites on the one hand and to the other race groups on the other hand, something which I find deplorable. The present situation can only be an indictment of those of us who are the privileged, the powerful, the few who enjoy enormous privileges and advantages whilst the vast majority of people in South Africa suffer under very difficult circumstances which one finds very difficult even to describe. The whole question of this gap received some attention from the hon. the Minister of Finance in his Budget Speech earlier on. When one looks at the figures, one is disappointed to see that, although in percentage terms a larger increase is given to Coloured, Indian and African pensioners, in real terms the gap has actually widened. For example, the gap between Whites on the one hand and Coloureds and Indians on the other hand has increased from R26 to R27-50, and the gap between Whites and Africans from R42-75 to R45-75. It seems to me that the problems of the senior citizens of our country are very similar, and that these problems could best be met if there were a department which served the needs not only of the minority group, but of the total population of the country. Therefore I would suggest that in any kind of inquiry or concern relating to the care of the aged and pensions, one ought to consider the basic structure of the department as it stands now. It is very important to realize that, when we talk about pensioners and the aged, we must begin to see them, not in terms of statistics or skin colour, but in terms of people who are the mothers or the fathers of children, people who have given themselves in productivity and in caring in a society and in a nation all their lives, and who, having now reached the evening of life, find it almost impossible to make ends meet.

I would like to raise three points about the pensions that are paid now and the pensions schemes operating now in respect of White people in this country. In the recent by-election in Pinelands—I will say no more about it except that—one noticed the vast number of aged people who were finding it almost impossible to make ends meet. Again and again one found old people saying that they had to cut out one meal per day in order to come out on their pension. These people are the ultimate victims of he galloping inflation which is gripping this country and, indeed, the world. It is my belief that they need special attention. We are very grateful for the increase that has been granted and those who have received the increase are even more grateful because even R5 is like a fortune to those aged people who live in small rooms or in old-age homes. It seems to me that if a national contributory scheme, which has already received adequate attention in the debate so far, cannot be introduced, we shall need to tie pensions to the cost-of-living index so that as prices escalate, and greater demands are made, people who are depending on a fixed income will at least get the immediate benefit of it rather than have an ad-hoc amount added to their pension at various times.

Let us consider the question of the means test. Last year in the debate on 16 February the then Deputy Minister said (Hansard, Vol. 42, col. 846)—

That makes a great deal of sense, but when it comes to the implementation of the means test, there is no question but that a great number of aged find it very difficult to understand and to cope with this. I therefore plead, on the one hand, for the immediate simplification of the means test, as long as it does exist, and on the other hand for the raising of the present levels, because in our judgment they are far too low. There are many people who are bewildered by this state of affairs, who are constantly asking questions, writing letters and making phone calls because they do not understand how the position affects them directly. Until such time as they understand this, they will continue to be confused and therefore insecure in their old age. Many people have tried to save and to act responsibly throughout their lives, but now they are actually being penalized by the severe application of a means test. Let us look at the means test as it exists for the aged African. If they receive an amount of R80 per annum or their income just exceeds R10 per month, no pension can be paid. This is nothing short of disgraceful and therefore needs urgent and immediate review.

Just one last point because my time is running short. The whole question of the inquiry, which the hon. the Minister himself has referred to, is to be warmly welcomed. The question of the transferability of pensions, both in terms of the amounts paid by the employer and by the employee, is one of the best things that has come out of this House for a very long time. Unfortunately there is a practice amongst many people, as Christmas draws near or when they are in need, to cash in their pensions. I hope very much that part of this investigation will concern itself with legislation that ought to be introduced to make it impossible for pension contributions to be cashed prematurely thereby undermining the very purpose of the pension scheme. This whole question of transferability will increase the security of the employee and help him in his old age. There are many aspects relating to this matter. Let me say in conclusion that when people are no longer productive we tend to cast them aside or set them apart in special homes for the aged.

Mr. Chairman, we have now heard a real Progressive speech. Before replying to it, I should like to use this opportunity of expressing my gratitude and appreciation to the Department of Social Welfare and Pensions for what it is doing for our aged and our under-privileged people. I now want to refer briefly to what was said by the hon. member for Pinelands. I hope this will not cause me to digress too far from the few remarks I really want to make. What the hon. member wants, is a national pension scheme in terms of which all pensions for Whites, for Bantu, for Coloureds and for Indians should be equal.

Not equal.

That is what the hon. member said. The hon. member said there should be no dividing line. Sir, all the hon. member omitted, was the hooligans and the hippies.

Absolute nonsense!

Give me a chance to make my speech. Who are the people who are to contribute to that national pension scheme? What about the contributions of the hooligans? What about the contribution of the hippie? What about the contribution of the unproductive people? The hon. member wants people who are productive, people who have a sense of responsibility, to contribute to a fund to afford a pension to the person who has no sense of responsibility.

The hon. member was so concerned about the aged. Why were they not concerned about the aged before 1948? In those years our people were lying in the backstreets of Cape Town. When our White people were living there in slum areas, those hon. members were not concerned about them. We have become accustomed for hon. members opposite to come to this House every year and accuse us of neglecting our aged. I challenge the hon. member to substantiate that charge. When were the aged more neglected—in 1974 under this Government or in 1948 under the government of those hon. members? In those days we not only had the rinderpest, but also the bubonic plague was prevalent among those people.

Mr. Chairman, may I ask the hon. member a question?

I do not have the time to reply to a question from the hon. member; in any case, I first want to deal with him and only then shall I reply to his question. Hon. members opposite come along year after year and refer to the care of the aged. What they really refer to, is the old age pension. I just want to tell the hon. member that we have more regard for our elderly people than those hon. members can ever hope to have. However, everyone of us will appreciate that one is never able to do what one wants to do for one’s father and one’s mother or any elderly person. Why do hon. members opposite come along every time and try to make political capital out of our aged? The aged do not want hon. members opposite to plead their case. After all, they know there is discord in that party. Our elderly people are Christian people, and they know that there is no blessing to be found in a house which is divided. Our elderly people are Christian people, and they tell us that they do not want the Opposition to plead their case. There is internal division in the Opposition. Our elderly people do not believe in people who are internally divided. The hon. member referred to the R50 which is going to be increased to R57 as from 1 December. This is not all we give the aged. I want to tell the hon. member that many of, our aged have some means of their own. Over a period of 14 months the pensions of our aged were increased by R16 per month, i.e. by 39%. This is far more than what hon. members opposite gave the aged during the time they were in power. When the United Party was in power, our aged only received R12 per month. Hon. members opposite only think in terms of the pension we give our aged, but this is not all we give them. Hon. members opposite know what the truth is, but they do not want to give expression to it. The hon. the Minister has repeatedly replied to questions put to him by hon. members opposite. To one of those questions the hon. the Minister replied that there are at present 298 registered old-age homes, in which 16 000 aged are cared for. Why does he not mention these things? Why does he keep quiet about them? He was a minister of religion, and one does not expect him, on the one hand, to preach the Gospel while holding the Bible in his hand and, on the other preach the Gospel of the Devil.

Order! The hon. member must withdraw those words.

I withdraw them. May I then say that he preaches the Gospel of Satan?

No, the hon. member must withdraw those words.

Then, I withdraw them as well. Sir, the State also makes considerable contributions to the cost of institutional care. In the first place, 100% loans are made available by the Department of Community Development for the erection of approved old-age homes. The Department of Social Welfare and Pensions pays the difference between the sub-economic and economic rate of interest, as well as a subsidy of R200 in respect of furniture for every resident. We also know that provision exists for a non-recurring grant in respect of the acquisition of special equipment.

What story is that?

This is not a United Party story. Apart from the social pensions which are paid monthly to the residents of old-age homes, the department pays the following per capita subsidies: R5-50 in respect of the ordinary aged; R28 60 in respect of the frail aged; R47-50 in respect of the frail aged where the home employs trained nurses on a full-time basis, and R66-50 in respect of the chronically ill. Why does the hon. member not mention these things? The other day the hon. member accompanied me on a bus trip to visit these homes, but he kept quiet about this information tonight, and he is a minister of religion.

I only had 10 minutes.

Sir, compare these figures with the subsidy of 60 cents payable in 1948, and then ask yourself how much value can one attach to the accusations made by those hon. members to the effect that this Government does not take care of our aged.

Sir, then we also have eight State old-age homes in which frail aged who have nowhere else to go are being cared for. There are three settlements in which frail persons with dependant children are provided with free accommodation, and the numerous other services are being rendered to our aged. Furthermore, because it is convenient for them not to do so, hon. members opposite seldom refer to the improvements effected to the means test from time to time. Why does the hon. member keep quiet about the improvements to the means test? Sir, I shall point out to you in a moment what the means test was in 1948. What is the means test at present?

Nothing.

Sir, I did not know R24 000 is of no consequence to that hon. member. I just want to refer to a few of the many improvements effected in 1972: The assets exempted for the purposes of the means test were increased from R4 800 to R9 800, but this does not count as far as that hon. member is concerned; is he, as a former minister of religion, not ashamed of himself? Sir, the exempted income of a person has been increased from R192 to R504. The means test has been improved considerably so that a person who has assets to the value of R22 400 is able to receive the full pension today, while those who have assets to the value of R34 400, are still able to receive the minimum pension of R12 per month. Why does the hon. member keep quiet about these facts? [Time expired.]

Now that we have finished with the comic touch, let us get serious. If that hon. member came from my constituency, he would not feel like cracking jokes about the aged. I come from a constituency which is renowned for its pensioners.

Then he is an elder as well.

Oh, I thought he is a minister.

†We are renowned for our pensioners. There are more needy and, aged people on the South Coast, I suppose, than are concentrated in any other area in South Africa, and I am very much aware of their problems.

First of all, I should like to thank the hon. the Minister for the announcement he made this evening about pensions. I do not think it goes far enough, but anyhow it is a beginning and I was pleased to hear it. But I want to read out something here for the benefit of the hon. member for Boksburg, who has now left the Chamber. He spoke about pensions and a welfare State, and this is an extract I want to read out of Social Work/Maatskaplike Werk of August. A Mr. Belwood writes and says here—

Then he asks—

I would like to go further and read a telegram I received from a gentleman in my constituency.

*This gentleman was a very high-ranking official in the Public Service. He is an old personal friend of the hon. the Minister of Finance and he was a very loyal supporter of that party. He sent me this telegram on the day after the Budget by the hon. the Minister of Finance. He said (translation)—

[Interjections.] He said he belonged to the Old Guard.

†This was a very badly typed telegram. This gentleman was complaining of course about the 10% increase they got some time ago and which I know he and other civil pensioners were very unhappy about, because their argument is of course that 10% to a man who is drawing R200 to R300 a month pension is very different from 10% for a person drawing R120 a month, and their needs are exactly the same. Food and clothing and rentals have gone up. Everything has gone up exactly the same for both, and this gentleman is most unhappy about this. He has asked me previously why the hon. the Minister does not take the lump sum which he wishes to give to civil pensioners, divide it by the number of civil pensioners and give each one a share thereof. He feels this would be much fairer. I think the hon. the Minister of Finance has gone some way in meeting this by this R25 minimum allowance which he is giving to civil pensioners. He is giving an extra R25 for the first R250 pension. I think it is a very good idea. However, I should like to ask him to consider this other suggestion as well.

The other point that worries the Old Guard is the way in which they have been treated compared with the new pensioners. The pensions of the Old Guard, i.e. the people who went on pension before 1969, are calculated in terms of a formula, which works as follows: The number of years they served are divided by 80 and then multiplied by the average of the salary which they received during the last four years of their service. The pensions of those who went on pension after 1969 are calculated in terms of a different formula. Their years of service are divided by 55 and then multiplied by the average of their salary for the last three years of service. There already is a difference: the mean of the last four years as against the mean of the last three years. This means that the new pensioners receive a higher pension. Let us take an example. If a pensioner served for 40 years in the Civil Service, his pension under the old formula is calculated by dividing 80 into 40 which means one half of the mean of his salary over his last four years of service. Under the new formula 40 is divided by 55 which is considerably more than one half. In addition the mean of his salary over the last three years and not over the last four years is taken as a basis. The pensioners who retired before 1969 want to know why they cannot be put on the same formula. They contributed to the pension scheme, they built it up, they furnished the money which made the scheme strong and powerful and they are not getting the benefit of it; only the new pensioners are getting the benefit. It is no good saying that they only paid in 6% while the new pensioners paid in 7%, because I am sure that everyone will agree that 6% of a man’s pay before 1969 was worth more than 7% today. They say that gratuities should be forgotten; all they want is that the Old Guard should be put on the same basis as the new pensioners. This is not asking a great deal, because there are not very many left and every year there are fewer and fewer of the Old Guard.

I also want to say something about social pensioners. I think they are grateful for the R5 they got. Of course. I cannot understand why the hon. the Minister saw fit to give this from 1 December only. Is it because he wanted the credit without paying for it? I think this was probably his object. On the other hand, was it because he admits that the cost of living will have increased so much by 1 December that these people will be only too grateful to get it then? Whatever his object or his reasoning, I am grateful for the little he has given. However, there are points of dispute. Take for instance the people who are living in State-aided institutions such as we have on the South Coast, like the Village of Happiness. The old age pensioner staying there pays seven-tenths of his pension to the village and in return he gets his maintenance and subsistence in that home. The R5 increase granted by the hon. the Minister virtually goes to the home and he gets very little out of it; as a matter of fact, he gets R1,50.

What about the R5 he received in May this year?

The same applies to that amount. Every time there is an increase, the pensioner has to pay seven-tenths to the home. He only gets the benefit of three-tenths of such an increase; in other words, only Rl,50 of each R5. That means that he will get R3 more, in total, with the increase which is to be granted with effect from December this year. That amount of R3 will, however, not cover the costs such a pensioner will have to incur. We should not forget that these pensioners have to buy their own toiletries and clothes and the other extra commodities they require. They also have to pay their own bus and train fares. I cannot offer a solution but I do not think it is beyond the wit of the hon. the Minister and his department to work out some formula whereby these people can benefit more as a result of these increases.

Another thing which is bugging them are the latest rail increases. Out of the three-tenths which is left of their pension they have to pay an extra 15% on rail fares. They ask if the increase in the rail fares cannot be disregarded as far as the old-age pensioners are concerned on journeys over 200 km. Perhaps a subsidy of 20% can be paid by the State on long journeys undertaken by these people. They are not asking support for the short journeys.

Another point which is worrying the social pensioners is that when a person in need of a social pension, wants to apply for it he is asked to produce a valuation of his property. In the coastal areas the local authorities do not give valuations on the building and the land, but they only give it on the land. This means that he has to get a sworn valuator to give him a certificate, which will cost him R50. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, by reason of the lack of time, I am not going to respond to the arguments advanced by the hon. member who has just resumed his seat, and I leave him to the hon. the Minister. Before dealing with other matters. I should like to draw the attention of the hon. the Minister and his department to some other matters.

The first matter concerns my constituency and deals with a housing project for the aged in Kempton Park. The “Kempton Bejaardes” (Kempton Park Association for the Welfare of the Aged) is a very active association which, in conjunction with the municipality, has made great progress with the establishment of a housing scheme for the aged. All the preliminary planning and working drawings have been completed, and provisional approval has been obtained as well. This has now reached the last stages of finalization prior to the commencement of building work we hope, early next year. This proposed complex will offer accommodation to approximately 100 persons in single flats and a further 40 in 20 double flats. Provision has also been made for a service centre plus other extensions to be added in future. However, I want to bring this project very pertinently to the notice of the hon. the Minister and ask him kindly to render assistance wherever possible in order that the granting of further approval and consent that may still be required, may be expedited so that any delays, should there be any, can be eliminated. We shall be greatly indebted to the hon. the Minister and his department for this, because this committee is in a great hurry to provide the service to the community.

In the second place I want to raise a matter I want to advocate in the interests of the department. This is a matter which, to my mind, is important and advisable particularly in the light of the rapid development taking place in our country. The Government’s policy of decentralization and the selection and determination of growth points by the Department of Planning is of the utmost importance to South Africa. Since various bodies have to deal with the determination of such growth points, it is also advisable for them to consider jointly the selection and preparation of such growth points. As hon. members know, this task was entrusted to the Growth Points Committee, which comprises representatives of various departments and corporations such as the Department of Bantu Administration and Development, Planning, Finance, Industries, Posts and Telecommunications, Transport, Water Affairs, Coloured Affairs and Indian Affairs as well as corporations such as Escom, and so on. I find it imperative that the Department of Social Welfare and Pensions ought to be included in the Growth Points Committee and have representation there on that Committee. I feel this is how it should be, because this department becomes involved when developments are initiated and continues to be involved in this sphere for all time. This department deals with everyone. To my mind there still exists a deficiency in this sphere. Therefore I want to ask the hon. the Minister in all earnest to use his influence to have this department involved in this matter to the advantage of the entire community. I believe the welfare aspect should not be neglected, and this justifies the inclusion of the department in the Growth Points Committee.

The third matter I want to raise, is the very serious problem of a shortage of trained staff experienced by the Department. I want to refer to one aspect in particular, and that is the shortage of social workers, which gives rise to very serious problems. It is a fact that only 11,5% of the total number of social workers are males. I want to avail myself of this opportunity tonight to make a special appeal to our young people who are studying to reconsider this profession because we need people like this. The department is definitely not able to do its work if it does not have enough social workers.

I want to associate myself with the words of appreciation expressed towards the hon. the Minister, the hon. the Deputy Minister and his department and its secretary. In this secretary we definitely have a person who is very devoted to his work, someone inspired with high ideals, a person who also succeeds in conveying this inspiration to those falling under him. This one can see from all the projects which have been tackled. Expressed in a modern idiom, one can say that he is riding the waves.

When one thinks of this department, one usually thinks of two aspects of its work, i.e. pensions and old-age homes. One found this was the case again in this debate tonight. However, I want to point out that this department covers a far wider field than merely pensions and old-age homes. In a sense this department deals with everyone and as such affects one’s life from the cradle to the grave. It deals with the rich and the poor. The department is concerned about the lot of the unwelcome child, the outcast, the neglected, the cripple, the handicapped, those addicted to drugs and drink, the aged and the orphaned. A visit I paid to various institutions compels me to express my gratitude with a feeling of deep appreciation, to the large number of staff members working in these various institutions. These people are working in seclusion, and they sometimes have to carry out their task in depressing and sombre conditions where they come into contact with suffering, addiction, handicapped and deviate people, broken homes and problem children. If one considers the service of charity they render, one realizes that there are still thousands of people in our country who are being inspired by idealism and who still show compassion for our under-privileged. I want to avail myself of this opportunity tonight to thank those people and to pay tribute to them for the welfare work they do. What I want to emphasize tonight in particular is that, while we do not have a socialistic community in our country, we want to do everything for our people in the social sphere without expecting the State to do everything. I want to point out that we have succeeded, with the assistance the State has rendered to various organizations, to enable those organizations to render this great variety of services for us. The objective is to involve the general public in the activities of the Department of Social Welfare and Pensions. This approach deserves the support of all of us. The department uses the system of subsidies it grants to welfare organizations, churches, and so on, to continue this work. Service to one’s fellow-man such as is being rendered here, one finds nowhere else. These organizations are doing magnificent work without any reward and without any remuneration.

I just want to refer briefly to the more important subsidies which are being paid. I mention in the first place the subsidy which is made available for handicapped persons. Time does not allow me to go into details, but hon. members will find that these are being set out in great detail on page 25 of the annual report. The point I want to make is that their needs are being provided for to a large extent. There are also other subsidies, for example subsidies to children’s homes, private persons who adopt and care for children, places of care, care of alcoholics, care of the blind, community centres, homes for the aged, clubs for the aged, hostels for low-paid workers, work classes for needy women, Ordinance 4 children’s homes, epileptics, and the handicapped. There is a salary subsidy for social workers, which represents an enormous amount. The subsidy in respect of the activities mainly directed at family child care, underlines the splendid co-operation between the State and the voluntary welfare services. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, I should like to avail myself of this opportunity to congratulate both the Minister and his Deputy on their appointments and to wish them success in their difficult offices.

†I want to refer to the question of old-age homes. I think it is common cause that, in the first instance, the necessity for providing for the elderly, and to an extent for the infirm, should rest with the family. I think there is an unfortunate tendency for families to shift their responsibilities and to entrust the care of the elderly and to an extent the infirm in those families to other bodies. I think this is a pity, and I would commend to the Minister the possibility of increasing subsidies to family units where there are elderly people who are in need of assistance, or where the family is in need of assistance, and even in the case of the infirm, although obviously not those that are chronically ill. My first premise is that the duty rests on the family to provide for its members where it is humanly possible.

I think the second responsibility rests on the State. It is for the State to provide homes and institutions for the aged, the infirm and for those that are chronically ill. As I understood the Minister’s policy statement earlier this evening, he believes that it is necessary to invoke the aid of private enterprise in order to cope with social problems which affect the aged and the ill. I can understand his reasoning, and I think it has merit. However, I should like to point out to him that there are dangers in his policy. There are real dangers of abuse. I should like to illustrate my argument in this way: The situation in the Peninsula is that private enterprise is now entering the field of social welfare, with Government subsidy. Because of the shortage of homes and institutions provided by the State, and because of the inability of families to cope with their elderly members, private enterprise is being subsidized. Large homes and hotels are being converted into homes for the elderly people. Those houses, old-fashioned houses, were not built for that particular purpose. Many of them are not suitable. The facilities offered in those houses and hotels are inadequate. Judging from personal experience of some of these old-fashioned houses and hotels that have been converted, I would say that the prevailing conditions leave a lot to be desired. A question was asked in the House in August as to the position of the number of subsidized patients in the Peninsula. The answer that was given by the hon. the Minister was that approximately 1 400 persons were being subsidized in private enterprise homes and that by 1976 nearly 500 further beds would be available in homes that have been given the seal of approval by the department. Reference has been made during the course of this debate to the subsidies that are paid by the Government in respect of ordinary elderly people, subsidies paid in respect of the infirm and the aged who need nursing services and those who are chronically sick. All of those subsidies are on a sliding scale, and obviously the chronically sick enjoy the greater subsidy. The present situation in some of these converted homes and hotels is such that one finds a mixture of people who are infirm and aged and people who are chronically sick. The system works in the following way. The person who applies to the Government for registration of a house or a hotel as an old-age home gets his certificate of registration, then collects the patient’s old-age pension and then receives one or other of the subsidies.

Not a subsidy; subsidies are being paid only to welfare organizations.

Well, one might wish to call it by another name. The fact is that the owner of the old-age home is paid an amount by the Government in respect of the patient.

By contract.

Yes, because he is entering into a contract. The ideal situation is, as I said earlier, that the family should look after its elderly people. If the family is unable to do so, the State should step in and provide the necessary home. However, one now finds that private enterprise is entering the field in a big way. The Minister objects to the word “subsidy”, but it is first a rose by any other name. From the experience I have had of similar homes in Johannesburg and here in the Peninsula, I think the Minister should use his powers under the Aged Persons Act of 1967 to send his inspectors round to see some of these institutions or homes that are run by private enterprise and that he should make a full statement to this House, when next we meet, as to the overall conditions in the number of institutions that are mushrooming, private enterprise institutions which are catering for the elderly and infirm. There are one or two companies, for example, which specialize in this sort of thing. Judging by the experience I have had of some of the homes that are run by some of these particular companies, I would say that conditions leave a lot to be desired. It seems to me that what, in fact, is happening is that these companies are buying up old houses and hotels with a view to capital appreciation in an area that will develop in the future. In the meantime, while waiting for capital appreciation, they are using these houses or hotels as old-age homes and receiving, by way of a contract, an annual amount from the Government to look after elderly and infirm people. Meanwhile they are paying the minimum of upkeep for the homes. Very often these homes need a great deal more attention outside and inside, than they are receiving. As a result these homes are dragging down the standards of the particular area in which they are located. This is the argument I wish to advance. If one takes the southern Peninsula, an area which I think members on both sides of the House would regard as an area with tourist potential …

So you don’t want the aged people there?

No, there are houses there that were built 60 or 70 years ago and hotels that were built 40 or 50 years ago and which have been converted into these old-age homes. It is not as if these people are doing it in a philanthropic sense, they are not just doing it to provide a social service; they are doing it to provide themselves with an income until such time as they can close down those homes when capital appreciation has taken place and those homes can be pulled down and turned into five-star hotels. That is what the situation is. Obviously during the interim period when they are waiting for the capital appreciation, they are not looking after these homes and these hotels as they should. As a result the whole of the area is given a run-down aspect and the property values in the area depreciate. Quite apart from that, the old-fashioned homes were occupied by people who were generally speaking well off and the businesses in the area thrived. Obviously the visitors to the hotels brought business to the area, but now by bringing in people of a different economic status the businesses and the property values are being affected. My argument is that it is obviously incumbent on the State to provide homes and if the State feels that by subsidizing or by assisting private enterprise in one way or another, they can cater for the needs of the elderly and for the infirm, that is fine. But surely what is important is the location of these homes. I see no sense whatsoever in establishing old-age homes in an area which the hon. the Minister of Tourism is trying to encourage as an area for the development of tourism. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, I think a hippie is best defined as a man who walks like Tarzan, looks like Jane and smells like Cheetah. I have no intention of comparing the hon. member for Simonstown with such a person. I want to say at once that in my opinion his speech was nicely balanced. Nor did I notice in his speech the Cheetah smell of political gain which I have noticed in others. As far as his speech is concerned, I just want to say that he is probably aware of the fact that the homes which are being administered by companies under contract are merely a temporary measure and that it is not the policy of the department to allow this on a permanent basis. It is an emergency measure, so to speak, which will be done away with as soon as possible. As far as the inspections are concerned, these homes are inspected very regularly; in fact, they are often inspected without any prior notice. So I think that what he asked for is in fact being done.

I want to express a few thoughts tonight on a very acute and real problem which is related to social welfare, namely alcoholism. To emphasize once again the importance of the problem, I want to quote some figures, and in order to save time, I shall not give my references, although I have them all here and I can prove the figures. Among the working White population, i.e. the economically active people, there are approximately 65 000 alcoholists, in other words, approximately two towns the size of Paarl would not be big enough to accommodate them. Then there are another 134 000—and these estimates are conservative—excessive drinkers, who border on alcoholism. These figures merely represent the White population. A very conservative estimate of the losses suffered by companies—and these do not include traffic accidents caused by alcoholists, hospitalization, etc.—is round about R136,5 million a year. An amount of R583,6 million was spent on drink—when I speak of drink I do not mean Cokes and lemonade—in South Africa in 1972. This year liquor sales will probably amount to R700 million. Liquor sales have increased by 83% over the past five years. Fifty per cent of the admission to the casualty section of the Groote Schuur Hospital bear some relation to the abuse of liquor.

Sir, we need not go very far back in the history of this Parliament to see how alcohol or its side-effects have ruined brilliant political brains, thereby robbing the country of the man’s political abilities and sometimes leaving his family unprovided for. I want to mention another example. After a sensational trial a 16-year-old boy was recently found guilty of murder. Would this have happened if there had not been a bottle of wine in the picture? One may ask oneself questions of this nature. I want to leave it at that. As far back as 1962 an interdepartmental committee pointed out the tremendous problem, as well as what we should try to do about it. In spite of this, the problem keeps growing. We have a great deal to say about rights in this House. We talk about human rights and about other rights. But let us say a few words about responsibilities.

I actually want to refer to the financial aspect of the combating, treatment and prevention of alcoholism. Who should be responsible for this? Where should the money come from? I want to say at once that I am not pleading for prohibition. I know this would be impossible; this dates back to antediluvian times. Some of the wine-growers may have seen in the newspaper that my business address is c/o the House of Assembly, Cape Town. They are welcome to send me a few cases. It need not all be red wine; I shall accept anything else as well. I am not pleading for the prohibition of alcohol, for that would be impractical and unreal. It would not work. What I am pleading for, is that we should do a great deal more to combat the harmful side-effects of alcohol, of which there are a great number. Therefore I ask: Where should the money come from? In the first place the public is asked to make contributions. We know that crippled children, children suffering from cerebral palsy, appeal to the public, but drunks do not. The public does not really want anything to do with them; people distantiate themselves from them. One cannot depend on raising the necessary funds for this by means of an appeal to the public.

This brings me to the second group on which one may place a responsibility. Here I want to mention specifically the winegrowers, the wine-sellers, the hotels and the bottlestore owners, for these are people who make a lot of money out of liquor. I have figures here to prove it. I say again that I have nothing against their product, but I say that the people who make the money cannot sleep well at night if they know that there are children who are going without food, unless they contribute towards the combating of the side-effects of their product. Only if they do that they can sleep soundly. I know that they produce the wine to be used, not to be abused. Therefore I say that the specific condition is that they should contribute to the combating of the side-effects. I have fine publications by SANCA here in which Mobil Oil is thanked and in which Old Mutual is thanked. There is a long list of acknowledgments here, but nowhere do I see the liquor people being thanked for their contributions to the combating of alcoholism.

I now come to the third body which must accept responsibility for making funds available, and this is the State, the Government. I notice that the Government is making a contribution of R1 160 000 here, but there are many other hidden contributions that are being made by the Government. There is, for example, the question of hospitalization, etc. I notice, too, that an amount of close on R24 million is being made available for child welfare. This, too, is necessitated mainly by alcohol. What is even more important, however, is its prevention, and I want to plead that the State should find a method of relating the money which is made available to SANCA and other bodies to the quantity of liquor which is consumed. For example, just as we deduct 50 cents from the third party insurance, to be made available for road safety, just as a certain amount from the excise duty on petrol is set aside for the National Road Fund, I want to plead that a fixed amount from liquor sales should be set aside for combating alcoholism.

Here we have an amount of R245½ million which the Government will receive from excise duties on liquor during the following year. I would not mind paying an extra cent for every bottle I buy. I do not care what the amount is, but such a specific amount must be set aside. Then we shall find that the more alcohol is consumed, the more money will be available. If people were to stop drinking, we would have no problem in respect of alcoholism and then the money would not be necessary either, but if they were to drink more, there would be more money.

I conclude with a final thought. The people who work with alcoholists, people such as those at Magaliesoord, outside Pretoria, are people who work under extremely difficult circumstances. I have had some experience of this. Working with a lot of drunk people and continually struggling to bring up one’s family is very difficult and depressing; one does not enjoy working under such circumstances. I want to plead for those people to receive a specific allowance, an additional amount over and above their normal salary, in order that we may get the right people for that important work. The right people are doing the work at the moment, but when those people retire, who will do the work then? I do not think it is fair that they should do that work for the same salaries as are being earned by others under normal and pleasant circumstances.

Mr. Chairman, in spite of the fact that the other day during the Second Reading debate on legislation dealing with the wines of South Africa. I made a speech extolling the nobility of South African wines. I cannot help but say that I support the hon. member for Krugersdorp in his plea for the assistance of alcoholics. I do not wish to react further to his argument because I think that he has dealt with the subject very well.

I do not want to deal with the amounts which pensioners receive or with percentages or anything like that, but with the people in South Africa who may not, through certain circumstances receive a pension. I want to deal with one category, namely old soldiers. It is often said that old soldiers never die; they only fade away. I am an old soldier myself, but I am not fading away just yet. However, I know of some who are. The tragedy of an old soldier is that when he is fading away, his services of the past are very often completely forgotten and in spite of the fact that he has a meagre income, he may not get a supplementary income from the State. We have abolished the means test in the case of a veteran of the South African War and we have allowed him to receive a war veteran’s pension irrespective of the amount he receives as private income. Those war veterans have practically faded away completely.

However, 12 years after the South African War had ended we had a catastrophic war in the world in which South Africa took part. I am referring to the First World War. I believe it is time that we abolished the means test for those veterans. [Interjections.] I have a father who served in that war and who was wounded twice. Although he is not poor, he would feel recognized by his fellow countrymen if he received something. I also have a certain constituent and without mentioning his name, I should like to read to the hon. the Minister a synopsis of his service. He registered with the South African Defence Force at its inception on 13 January 1913 and his number was C4978. He was then allotted to the D.E.O. Rifles. He did peacetime training during 1913. He went to a camp at Worcester on 24 September 1913. He was called up during a Railway strike in 1913 and he was called up again for garrison duty from 8 August to 1 September 1914. Thereafter he returned to university. He rejoined again on 30 September 1914 and went with the D.E.O. Rifles to South-West Africa. He was awarded the 1914-’15 Star and was discharged on 31 July 1915 on leave after the South-West African campaign. He then went overseas with a machinegun section from Port Elizabeth and joined the Rifle Brigade of the British army on 16 September 1915 He was doing what he believed was service to South Africa. He served in the front-line trenches in France from 8 October 1915. He was wounded on the Somme on 10 July 1916 and discharged on 26 August 1917 on account of wounds and awarded a disability pension by the British Government. He returned to South Africa and was transferred to the reserves of the PAG though incapacitated for further service. This gentleman went back to work. He taught in a school in my constituency until he reached the age of 70. He is in receipt of a disability pension as a result of his service in the British army, but he also served in the South African army. He has served South Africa as a teacher and many thousands of pupils have passed through his hands; some of them are sitting in this House tonight—two of them as far as I know. It would mean so much to a man like this who is well in the 70s if the State would say, “For the services you have rendered South Africa, we are now abolishing the means test and we are going to give you just a little bit of recognition”. I make this plea because I think that, in view of the fact that the veterans of the South African War have now practically completely faded away, we should have some recognition for those who fought in the war thereafter and in which this country was involved.

Business interrupted in accordance with Standing Order No. 23.