Mr. Speaker, as far as the business of the House is concerned, I want to say that after the Votes of the Minister of Social Welfare and Pensions have been disposed of, we shall proceed with the Votes of the Minister of Mines, of Immigration and of Sport and Recreation. The debate on these Votes will most probably continue until Monday, and after these Votes have been disposed of on Monday, we shall proceed with Order of the Day No. 10 on the Order Paper, the Occupational Diseases in Mines and Works Amendment Bill, with Order of the Day No. 2 on the Order Paper, the Post Office Service Bill, and subsequently with Orders of the Day Nos. 4, 5, 6, 7, 8 and 16. We shall then proceed to deal alternately with Votes and legislation which still have to be disposed of.

I want to say, Mr. Speaker, that it is clear that we shall not be able to finish before the end of the month if we do not have morning sittings, and for that reason there will most probably be a motion to have morning sittings. Therefore hon. members who thought that we would be able to finish on 26 October will simply have to make other arrangements. I do, however, want to make an appeal to hon. members to co-operate. If they do that, we shall still be able to finish before the end of the month, but then we shall have to say what we want to say in the shortest possible time, and not take up the time of this House if we have nothing to say.

Mr. Chairman, I want to raise another matter with the Minister dealing with people who do not receive any Social Welfare allowances. Sir, some years ago social welfare pensions were withdrawn from people who became inmate, but I do believe that some sort of hospitals and homes for the chronic sick. I have two of these institutions in my constituency, the Prince Alfred Hospital for the chronic sick and the Fort England Hospital for mental cases. The withdrawal of allowances to these people has created rather a problem, because in the past the hospital authorities, or sometimes the patients themselves, were able to use these allowances to buy necessities of life such as tobacco, sweets, bedding and underclothes—the sort of thing that has to come out of one’s own pocket. Many of these patients are destitute and the withdrawal of these allowances has caused a great deal of trouble. I do not believe that in this instance it is necessary to reinstate the full pension for an inmate, but I do believe that some sort of allowance should be made, either directly to the patient or to the hospital or to some charitable organization. I have in my hand a letter from the chairman of the Friends of Fort England Hospital in Grahamstown. He informs me that convicts are allowed some sort of allowance but that mental patients are not. He says the conclusion is that convicts are more important than mental patients. I believe that we should do something here because this gentleman goes on to say—

I make an appeal to the hon. the Minister to have a look at the situation and to see whether some small allowance cannot be made to patients of State institutions under these circumstances.

In the very short time available to me I do not wish to go into detail because I have raised the matter with the hon. the Minister and his Deputy Minister in regard to the possibility of members of religious communities qualifying for the old-age pension. I do not want to go into detail. I have had correspondence with the Minister and the Deputy Minister notified me recently that he would probably be able to furnish me with a full reply in the near future. If it is possible to furnish a full reply during this debate I would appeal for that reply to be given. However, if it is not possible I will accept the fact that the matter is still being investigated and that the reply will be coming in due course. I sincerely hope that the reply will be sympathetic.

Sir, since this is the first occasion on which I am participating in the discussion of this Vote in my present capacity, I, in the first place, want to express my sincere thanks to hon. members—especially the hon. member for Umbilo, the hon. member for Pinelands, the hon. member for Westdene—and the hon. the Minister for the good wishes they expressed here yesterday in regard to my assumption of this office.

Sir, it is quite an experience to be associated with this department, since it is a department which deals with human weal and woe. On account of the magnitude of this department’s activities, they lend themselves to and also, in fact, demand an idealistic approach. To me it is a privilege to be associated with this department, and to work together with a Minister such as the hon. J. P. van der Spuy and with the senior officers of this department, who are people who are dedicated to their task in a spirit of idealism.

It is possible for me to become sentimental about the activities of this department and the obligations those activities entail, as some hon. members in fact indicated yesterday. At the same time, as far as the activities of this department is concerned, it is also possible to present things in a sensational manner, as some newspapers have been doing lately. Fortunately, in our political approach to the tasks of this department, we do not differ from one another to any large extent, although there are differences as to where the accent should fall. But this afternoon, right at the outset, I want to plead that, although we do tend to adopt a sentimental attitude towards our aged, our handicapped and especially our young children, of whom 54 000 are dealt with annually by this department in some way or other, we should also remember that however sentimental one might feel about the needy, the solution, after all is said and done, boils down to a practical and in most cases also a financial approach. That is why I want to express my joy in this regard at the announcement the hon. the Minister made yesterday about the proposed inquiry into a scheme which would place on every person during his economically active years, but also on his employer, the social obligation to make provision for his old age. I am particularly glad that the emphasis of the approach is getting away from the State, the idea that the State alone is in fact the one which has to provide for the needs of the needy and for their old age. I sometimes feel concerned about the fact that the tendency might take root among everyone that, if there are problems in people’s lives, they should run to the State first. We all have to develop a social conscience, and I want to make bold to say that the State, through the agency of this department, is decidedly not lagging behind as far as its social conscience is concerned. Look at this department’s record and at the services it renders and you will see that its social conscience is wide awake. But it is not only the State that should have a social conscience; every individual, too, must have a social conscience, as well as every employer. In this regard I specifically want to ask that, when we come to the individual, the conscience of the working, economically active person should be awake in respect of, firstly, his children. Yesterday the hon. the Minister referred to the fact that this is going to be insisted upon, and that steps are going to be taken to oblige a parent to meet his obligations in respect of the maintenance of his children, i.e. if he allows his children to land in some institution or other. But, if this is true in respect of the child, it is, on the other hand, equally true that in his economically active lifetime, the person should also look back on the parents who brought him into the world, for only a parent who has watched over the sickbed of his small child and spent anxious hours there, can realize what his parents, too, meant to him at a certain stage in his life, when his life began. The tendency which is arising, in our country as well, is that, because we are materially well-off, we are inclined to forget in their old age those who brought us into the world. This is a tendency we should resist, and it is not only the department’s task to resist it; it is the duty of every one of us who is a leader in our community to foster the idea, by means of activating our communities, that we have a responsibility towards our own parents as well as the elderly people in our own community. It is this idea that gives rise to the approach of this department, that we can and must take care of our elderly people as long as possible in our own family circle or in our own social circle.

I find it a pity that the hon. member for Simonstown is not here now, for this brings me to a point he raised here yesterday, i.e. the presence of an old-age home in his constituency, on the beachfront in his constituency. One of the hon. members said it was temporary accommodation, provisionally, until such time as other arrangements could be made. I cannot agree with the hon. member for Simonstown. I have newspaper cuttings relating to the matter. This is a material approach. I do not want to condemn the hon. member strongly for this, for he acts under pressure from his voters, but a community which has no time for its underprivileged children and the childrens’ homes in its community, or begrudges its elderly people a place in the sun on the beautiful coast of South Africa, that community must think again. This is all I have to say to the hon. member for Simonstown in this regard.

But having said that one has to realize that besides a social conscience one has to have a practical approach to these matters as well, I now want to refer to what the hon. member for Constantia said here yesterday.

†The hon. member for Constantia mentioned the case of a widow receiving R39 a month from a private pension fund and R24 a month from her own funds, dividends on investments, and that she owns a property which she does not want to sell for sentimental reasons. Now, I have said, Sir, that there is the tendency to approach these matters sentimentally. The lady in question also has a sentimental attachment for dogs. The hon. member also mentioned to us the fact that she owns two dogs and that it costs her a certain amount of money each month for the upkeep of those dogs. I want to tell the hon. member that I am also a sentimentalist although my sentiments may be different. However, he must realize that even sentiments cost money today. The hon. member may remember the story about King Midas who had the golden touch. Eventually, he starved to death simply because everything he touched turned into gold. This is what happened to him because he felt sentimental about gold. I do not think the hon. member gave us the full circumstances in regard to this particular woman he mentioned. He did not tell us whether she had children who would eventually become the owners of that property. We do not know the rest of the story. In any case, the private pension which the hon. member mentioned that she is receiving and her income from private investments amount to more than the amount of the old-age pension which will be payable from 1 December.

*In other words, we should also take a practical view of these matters. When we receive representations from people, we should not broadcast their objections, but should try to guide and advise those people in regard to how they should plan their affairs.

If there is one thing which became evident to me very shortly after I had joined this department, it is the fact that an urgent need exists for advance planning in the sphere of welfare. The hon. member for Westdene and the hon. member for Kempton Park referred to this yesterday. In saying this, I do not mean to imply, of course, that up to now the department has been working at our welfare structure in a purposeless and fruitless manner. On the contrary. One has nothing but the greatest appreciation for what welfare organizations, in conjunction with the department, have done in this sphere in the past. I think what we are doing in this regard in this country, can give us cause for pride if we compare it with welfare services elsewhere in the world. However, the times in which we are living and the demands which are made on us, demand that we should employ further means and energies to be able to do what has to be done with our relatively small manpower supply. In this regard advance planning is of the utmost importance, also as far as welfare work is concerned. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, it is obvious that the hon. the Deputy Minister has not yet completed his argument and I rise to give the hon. gentleman an opportunity to complete his speech.

Mr. Chairman, I thank the hon. member for Umbilo for his courtesy.

*As hon. members know, the department’s field services are organized on a regional basis. For this purpose, the Republic and South-West Africa are divided into ten regions, each with its own regional office as a base from which the work in every region is organized. Besides this organization, provision is made by the National Welfare Act of 1965 for a National Welfare Board, the main function of which is to advise the Minister on welfare matters. In addition to the welfare board, there are also regional welfare boards instituted for each of the areas for which there is a regional office to the department. The functions of these regional welfare boards are as follows: Firstly, to advise the National Welfare Board on welfare matters; secondly, to co-ordinate and plan welfare services in each region; and thirdly, to provide guidance and information to welfare organization in their respective areas. In theory it could probably be said that not much is wanting in the overall organization of the service. I do believe, however, that in practice not much comes of what we initially envisaged.

I want to emphasize that it is not my intention to underestimate the value of what we have been able to achieve up to now. On the contrary. I doubt whether the next step would have been possible if we had not progressed as far as we have done. By that I am trying to say that everything we have done to the present has not been in vain, but has in fact strengthened our case. On the road ahead, however, far greater demands will be made on us due to changing circumstances and it is our duty and responsibility to ensure that we shall at all times be prepared for the demands made on us by new circumstances. We should also ensure that the organization of welfare services is such that we shall be able to meet the challenges of the future. As I see the matter, we shall have to find room, in the organization we need in future, for the National Welfare Board to advise the Minister in regard to policy matters in the sphere of welfare. Whether the board should continue to undertake the registration of social workers by sub-commissions, as it is doing at present, is, however, an open question, especially in view of the fact that the present board is burdened with functions to such an extent that this might be detrimental to its advisory function.

Be that as it may, this is a matter which is still being investigated and I therefore do not wish to anticipate it. However, what is clear to me at this stage is that it will be to our benefit if we involve our regional welfare boards in our planning action. In my opinion such an involvement would necessarily entail involving the local community of each region directly in the planning of the welfare services of the region concerned, because regional welfare boards are constituted from among the ranks of that community. The planning we have in mind here might possibly be regarded as the physical planning of every region because its objective is the planning of welfare services to be rendered in every region. From the nature of the case, the members of regional welfare boards are not people who are able to devote fulltime attention to such matters.

As hon. members will understand, physical planning without the necessary factual particulars will just not be feasible, but what is more, regional welfare boards will hardly have the time at their disposal to conduct the investigations and research which are required, and to assist in planning the welfare services in the region concerned in a meaningful way. It is obvious, therefore, that the regional offices of the Department of Social Welfare and Pensions should be very closely integrated with the regional welfare boards of the respective regions, and that they will have to take a leading role and do the spade work to enable the boards to perform the planning functions which we intend assigning to them.

As I see things, the regional office of our department and the regional welfare board will become an integral planning instrument for the particular area for which they are instituted. The question might be asked what the planning functions of these boards will be. With a view to the advance planning of affairs, I want to say that it is essential for us to get clarity on various matters. As an example of what we have in mind, the handling of emergency situations might be mentioned. Emergency situations can, from the nature of the case, arise without warning.

I am thinking, for example, of the task which was recently assigned to the department when we had to handle large numbers of refugees from our neighbouring states. The problem descended on us overnight. There has to be planning to make provision for situations of this kind. We also have experience of other similar situations. After the earthquake we had in the Boland a few years ago, and at the time of the flood disasters along the lower Orange River, quick action also had to be taken. To be able to execute our task meaningfully and to the benefit of the community, it is necessary therefore for us to be prepared for events such as those I have referred to.

The time has arrived for us to determine in advance how many old-age homes, children’s homes, places of care, registered rehabilitation centres, places for sheltered employment and other welfare services will be required in any particular region within the next five or ten years to provide for the needs of the inhabitants. For that reason we can no longer afford to tackle the services in an unco-ordinated and unplanned manner, and to leave it to individuals, local and even small communities to come forward with their representations. Of course, our intention is not to interfere with the internal management and arrangements of such institutions, but it is imperative for us to start getting matters into perspective. The services must, therefore, be undertaken in a planned manner. We can no longer afford to have the establishment of these services decided at random or by chance. Planning ahead means thinking ahead.

In thinking ahead as regards the needs of a particular region and in ensuring that those needs are provided for, we not only ensure the best services for the community, but also prevent our falling on evil days. The philosophy underlying the planning we are envisaging, is to involve the community itself in that planning. When I speak of the community, I also mean the various welfare organizations in a particular region. Regional welfare boards are constituted from elements in the community and therefore represented interests of a local nature. This virtually amounts to the community planning with us for and in the interests of that community. The community in every region will have to have a real and active share in the planning of its own interests and, coupled with the know-how which can be provided by the department on behalf of the Government, it ought, in my opinion, to be able to serve the best interests of such a region and a community.

As I have indicated, we want to involve the community more actively in its own interests and afford it a greater role in the planning of its own destiny. We believe that justice may best be done to welfare work when the community itself is involved in the matter, and that is why we reject the idea of a welfare state. That is why we are opening the door to the community so that it may manage the welfare of its people in conjunction with the department. By tackling planning on a regional basis, we shall ensure that the needs of not a single area will be overlooked and we shall be in a position to offer the best welfare services which our country and its people are capable of.

It is not possible, of course, to go into all the details of this kind of co-operation here. I just want to mention that, in my opinion, basic requirement for this planning is that the regional welfare boards, other than is the case at present, will become the direct planning instruments of the department and will henceforth advise the department instead of the National Welfare Board on these matters directly. There is still a considerable amount of preparatory work which has to be done in this regard, and I still have to get in touch with certain bodies in this connection. Hon. members will therefore understand that it will still take some time before it will be possible to implement the ideas I have expressed here this morning.

Having referred to these matters, I want to make a few remarks about matters which were raised here by hon. members. The hon. member for Westdene referred to the crisis clinics, one of which is being undertaken by the department in Hillbrow at present, while there is another which is being managed on a private basis here in Cape Town. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, we are very pleased that the hon. the Deputy Minister is placing so much emphasis on planning. However, I am going to leave the matter at that, because I want to focus attention specifically on the position of civil pensioners.

† First of all, I would like to associate myself with what has been said by other hon. members in wishing the hon. the Minister well in his new capacity as Minister of Social Welfare and Pensions. I think he should be very mindful of the fact that at the same time he is also the Minister of National Education and that where it comes to the matter of civil pensioners, that it is something which is of intimate concern to him in his other capacity.

The position of the civil pensioner needs urgent attention. With rampant inflation today their position is in fact deteriorating daily. In general terms one can say that the greatest tragedy of the civil pensioner is that if he is blessed with good health and has the prospect of living for a long period after retirement, then, considering the position he held in public life, he is bound to die as a relatively poor man. Instead of having a carefree old age he has to spend his time worrying about how to make ends meet. I do not want to be accused of being completely negative and making accusations here that cannot be justified. I have therefore decided to quote freely from letters we have received from civil pensioners and to let them be the judges in this case, because they are the people who have experience of it. I want to read from a letter dated 31 August 1974:

Then this remark—

This is what an ex-inspector of schools has to say. Let us now hear what a headmaster had to say on this matter—

Sir, there is something drastically wrong when you can find a retired inspector of schools speaking about “meagre pension” and when you find an ex-headmaster speaking about “extremely scurvy treatment”. I have raised this matter with the previous Minister of Social Welfare and Pensions on about four or five occasions, i.e. that we believe that there must be an automatic adjustment of pensions, especially with regard to civil pensioners. I make no apology for raising the matter here again. It is no good that we say we have sympathy with these people. They need more than that. We must be concerned about this state of affairs. I would also like to quote from the headmaster’s letter in this regard—

We must agree that the ex-inspector of schools, the ex-teacher, the ex-magistrate would like to maintain a standard of living in retirement commensurate with their status. How can this be done when you find, as is brought out by this letter, that such a person only receives a pension of R261, in December? Only the foolish person can say that, against the present cost of living, a person can maintain a standard of living which is expected from a person in that position, namely an ex-inspector of schools. I personally know the person involved. This ex-inspector has been forced for years, even when he was in his seventies, to continue teaching. Unfortunately, he has reached a stage today where he is no longer able to continue teaching and therefore he has to live on this pension.

Regular adjustments, whether by means of an annual increase or by means of a system of tying the pension to the post, is the only means by which you can ensure that a person in retirement can continue to maintain the standard of living he was used to and which is commensurate with his status. For years—this is my point—the Government has tried to bring relief by means of ad hoc adjustments in the form of bonuses and the odd 10% increase here and there. The Government has been in power for 26 years and I have quoted instances of persons who have been on pension respectively from 1951 and 1952. Sir, if the system of the Government is working satisfactorily, these people would not have been writing about the matters in the terms in which they have written to me. It would not have been necessary for them to speak of “meagre pension” or, of “the extremely scurvy treatment”. I want to say to the hon. the Minister that in the teaching profession—he is well aware of this—there is virtually general agreement that there should be a system of tying the pension to the post. It is the system which they, in fact, advocate. We always hear that this would be impossible and that, if it should be introduced, it would lead to inflation. However, I cannot see any alternative. When one has to tie it to salary adjustments, the question arises as to why salary adjustments become necessary. Why is it necessary to change the salary scales from time to time? We are forced to such changes because of the declining value of money and because the people in the Services find it difficult to maintain a standard of living commensurate with their status. If this is true in the case of people who are in the Services today, it must equally be true in the case of people who have retired.

Can you give any example of where such a system is in operation?

The hon. the Minister’s predecessor said that Germany had tried such a system and there the result was inflation. However, I feel that we ought to investigate this matter ourselves. I cannot give examples of other countries where it is being applied, but I maintain that there is a need for us to investigate this matter. I am not convinced that such a system will lead to a terrific increase in inflation. The possibility of increased inflation was the only argument advanced against the introduction of such a system. If we do not introduce such a system, how will these people be able to maintain their standard of living? The basis of my whole argument is that they must be placed in the position to maintain a standard of living commensurate with their status.

*However, I want to refer briefly to another matter relating to the Government non-White Employees Pensions Act. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, the hon. member who has just resumed his seat must pardon me if I do not react to his argument. I am sure the hon. the Minister will reply to him in full.

There is one matter about which the Committee can have no doubts and about which there cannot be any difference of opinion either, i.e. the dedication with which the Department of Social Welfare and Pensions, from the Secretary, Mr. Van Vuuren, right down to the person who holds the lowest rank, perform their daily task. We are very thankful for that.

Once again during this debate the question of care of the aged was emphasized, but I want to confine myself to another function of our welfare services, i.e. the question of probation or probationary services. Recently I paged through the report of the Commissioner of Prisons for the period 1 July 1970 to 30 June 1971, and arising out of that and the statement made by the State President on the occasion of the opening of Parliament on 1 February of this year that an efficient and an intensive probation service is indispensable to any crime prevention programme, I felt convinced that this matter should enjoy more attention. I was shocked to learn from the report of the 401 475 persons who were sentenced to imprisonment for periods of one to four months. Of this number there were 256 246 persons who were sentenced to terms of imprisonment of less than a month. The conclusion one has to arrive at, is that these people were sentenced for minor offences. I want to say at once, however, that I am not one of those people in the world today who is suffering from a distorted or exaggerated sense of humanism. I also want to say that what I intend saying should not be regarded as constituting criticism of our courts or the fine work the professional officers are doing in the department or other bodies. I have nothing but the greatest appreciation for the work that is being done. I believe in punishment. What do we achieve, however, by imprisoning these people for a month or two? The answer would probably be that they were getting their just deserts. That might be so. I am convinced, however, that in their interests and in the country’s interests we could investigate and apply more positive methods of punishment. For that reason I want to advocate that this possibility be investigated. I just want to mention that some countries are applying a system of this kind with success. Let us consider the consequences which imprisonment, even for one month, can entail. The prisoner loses his income, the family immediately finds itself in financial straits and the State has to intervene in order to support the family. Besides this, the prisoner is detained at State expense and after his discharge he is simply left to his own devices again. He then carries on in his normal way. In many instances he comes into conflict with the law again and this leads to further imprisonment. This results in the disintegration of families. The country cannot afford to imprison such a large percentage of its citizens. Almost half a million people, constituting part of the country’s labour force, are lost in this way. At present nothing constructive can be done to raise the fallen citizen. So I can continue to analyse the detrimental consequences this has. I fully realize that the professional officers in the Department of Prisons are doing their best to help these fallen people. I am also aware that there are other bodies that do their share and I want to say again that I can have nothing but the highest appreciation for the work these people do. This period of imprisonment is so short that any form of rehabilitation is simply impossible. Last year the previous Deputy Minister indicated that he would devote attention to probation services, and I should very much like to know whether this matter has been taken any further. I once again want to emphasize the importance and the necessity of the establishment of more extensive probation service than the one which is already in existence, to make provision for rendering purposeful social services during the probation period of persons who have committed minor offences and consequently have to serve short terms of punishment. The legal process is, in nature and in structure, different to the aid process, and a clear distinction should be drawn between the two. The courts are the community’s interpretation of its right to protect itself against lawbreakers, while probationary services are the interpretation of the community’s recognition that it has an equal responsibility to find a way of helping persons who display aberrant and destructive behaviour to gain a better insight into their personal problems and to find positive solutions for them. It is clear therefore that the purpose of a probation service ought to be to promote social functioning. This service could also lead to only those who commit serious offences being sentenced to imprisonment. Probation, however, must be subject to certain conditions, i.e. that should the parties concerned not comply with those conditions, they will in fact have to be imprisoned. It follows therefore that probation services will have to be laid down effectively in legislation, and that in such legislation provision will have to be made for the appointment of probation officers, and their functions will have to be defined if we should want to do justice to such a service. Sir, I understand that the hon. the Minister of Justice has in fact instituted an investigation of this kind into our criminal law. If such a commission were to be appointed—as far as I know the appointment of such a commission has not yet been published—I should welcome it if the Department of Social Welfare and Pensions could have representation on this commission. I should very much like to see this department and the hon. the Minister having a say or a share in this investigation in some way or other.

Mr. Chairman, I only have five minutes and I hope that the hon. member who has just sat down will not mind if I do not follow him directly. Sir, there are two matters which I would like to draw to the attention of the hon. the Minister and of the hon. the Deputy Minister. This is in relation to what I was going to say last night. The first matter relates to the work of the department in the past, and specifically to a departmental committee of inquiry which was appointed on 4 December 1964 and which completed its inquiry in June 1966. Sir, that committee made some very far-reaching and important recommendations which included the recommendation for the preservation of approved pension rights and the recommendation that this should be made compulsory. Secondly, it made some observations regarding the voluntary transferability of pensions, and thirdly, it recommended that there should be established a central pensions bureau, which would administer the Pensions Fund Act, the Central Pensions Fund and a central pensions registry. This report was enthusiastically received and debated at the annual conference of the Association of Pension and Provident Funds of South Africa at East London in March 1969. Sir, there may well have been some further developments since that time, but I certainly am not able to trace them and I would appreciate some further information about what I have described as very far-reaching recommendations made by this inter-departmental committee of inquiry. Then, Sir, there is another thing which relates more to future development. One is impressed with and grateful for the further attention that is to be given to the care of the aged. In the remaining couple of minutes still at my disposal I would like to try to point to a number of areas which I feel ought to receive the attention of the hon. the Minister and his department in direct relation to what could be described as a new deal for the senior citizens of our country. In the first place, a common complaint by many aged people is that once they have reached the age of retirement, or even a more advanced age, they are very often shunted off into an area or into an old-age home which confines them to that place and takes them out of the total community life. Sir, when I was visiting an old-age home just this last week in Cape Town, one of the ladies there said to me that they are most grateful for the home and for the care which they were receiving there, and then she said to me, “You know, there is one thing which really distresses me; I am sick and tired of old people”. Sir, the point is well taken that in the lounge, in the corridors, in the dining-room and everywhere else, one is surrounded exclusively by the aged. We are, of course, going to have to have more homes for the aged, and one is grateful that this provision is going to be made. But to take up the point made by the hon. the Deputy Minister a minute ago, where he mentioned the need for each community to care for its aged, I wonder if we could not consider legislating that a certain percentage of space in new apartment blocks and in new housing developments must be set aside for old people to be given a place there.

Kalk Bay, for instance.

Yes, I agree with the hon. the Deputy Minister. I think the question of subsidized transport should also be looked at again, and also the whole question of employment. In Japan, for example, the aged are guaranteed employment provided they are able to work. This of course relieves the manpower situation and also gives to the older folk the dignity which they so often lose when they become old. Then, finally, I wonder whether we ought not to try to draw the older people in various areas together in local councils of aldermen, if you like, to draw on their wisdom which has been accumulated over the years, because I am convinced, as we talk with them, that they have much to offer our society and I think it would be a tremendous advantage to them and to ourselves to receive that advice.

Sir, I should like to avail myself of this opportunity, in the very first place, to congratulate the hon. the Deputy Minister on his first speech in Parliament on this Vote. The way in which he handled matters, made it clear to us that he is in future going to render a valuable contribution to the discussions on the Vote, under which he is going to perform this task. I think the idealism he spoke of is not lacking in the department or in himself as the Deputy Minister. If this is the primary requirement one should have for handling this Vote, I am sure he will make a complete success of this task.

In his policy statement the Minister made it very clear that he will not deviate from the policy of co-operation between the State and the Church and the other bodies. I want to say at once that we welcome this idea since in no other task is so much co-operation required between the State and the entire community, the whole community as such, as in the case of social welfare services. But this is no new idea. Private initiative played a major role in the previous century in combating social evils and aberrations. As far back as 1873 the International Order of Good Templars was established. In 1889 there was the Temperance Society, and in 1899 the Women’s Christian Temperance Society was established here in Cape Town, which is perhaps an indication that we here in the south have needed this for some time. Closer to our own time we acquired bodies such SANCA, which changed its approach slightly in 1969 not only to include alcohol, but to bring drugs and the effects of drug addiction within its ambit. I am not going to go into other societies, but I have here a list of about 12 or 15 of them in regard to which there is a large measure of interdependence between the State and these institutions since they are subsidized by the State so as to act within the ambit of the community. I just want to mention that the churches, all the churches here as well as the Salvation Army, are bodies which pre-eminently perform their task well. Sir, South Africa keeps abreast in this sphere, and in these difficult times in which we are living, with the problems which have arisen in the world, especially the problems of alcoholism and drug addiction, problems we should not underestimate. It is not something which only occurs in other places. It is almost a worldwide phenomenon, like inflation. As far back as 1966 the previous Minister of Social Welfare and Pensions appointed a Committee of Inquiry into the Abuse of Drugs. Arising out of this inquiry we obtained the Abuse of Dependence-Producing Substances and Rehabilitation Centres Act and these rehabilitation centres also included centres for alcoholics. I repeat we are particularly proud of the hon. the Minister and his department because we do not lag behind when it comes to progress and investigations in this sphere. A few days ago a report appeared in the Press—I might perhaps furnish a few further particulars about this—in connection with the first international conference on alcoholism and drug-dependence which is going to be held in South Africa. It will be held from 4 to 8 November of this year in Cape Town. The theme of this conference will be: “The challenge of the ’sixties”. I should like to congratulate the hon. the Minister and his department on this approach. I want to congratulate them on their invitation, which will make it possible for this conference to be held here in South Africa. In particular I also want to congratulate the official in charge of the arrangements committee, Dr. Winkler, and all the other officials who are involved in this, on their approach i.e. to regard this question of alcoholism and drugs as a team effort, to regard it as not being a question for the State only, but one for psychologists, psychiatrists, social workers, church leaders, doctors and pharmacists as well. There is no one in the community that is excluded. I also want to say at once that no one is above lapsing into the situation I have just mentioned. On its first day, this conference will provide an international and a national survey. The second day will probably be one of the most important and one of the most historical of any conference held in South Africa. On that day the main address will be delivered by Dr. Gumede, a Bantu, who is head of the KwaSimama Clinic. His address will deal with the problems of adjustment, urbanization and westernization. It will deal, in particular, with his own people but I surmise that there will be nothing to prevent it from being applicable to the Whites, too, as well as the other population groups in our country. On that same day an address will be delivered by Dr. Oelinikoff in connection with the education of the youth. This Swiss doctor is a psycho-sociologist. The Christian aspect will be dealt with by Dr. Gous. An Indian doctor will act as chairman on that occasion. On the third day the subject will be: “Man’s responsibility and contribution to society”, and in this regard Dr. Laura Root of the U.S.A. will cover the social aspect. The cultural influence on the individual and the group will be dealt with by Dr. Bodenstein of the Department of Health. A very interesting address which will also be delivered on that day, will deal with activating the community. This address will be delivered by Mr. Ulster. He was one of our representatives at the UN. On the last day the address, a look into the Future, will be delivered by Dr. Beaumont from Canada. He will deal with the identification and rehabilitation of the alcoholic and drug addict. I am just mentioning these matters since, out of this conference or symposium which has been arranged, there is one thing which emerges and that is that this problem affects every one in South Africa. The fact that academics from the Bantu, Coloured and Indian groups will be there, who will discuss these matters together with international experts from the USA, Canada and South Africa, is one of the most important events which has taken place here in South Africa over the past decade. Arising out of this conference, I want to make a special plea for the establishment of a permanent division of the Department of Social Welfare and Pensions, the existence of which will not depend on sporadic commissions on drugs or alcoholism, but which will be a permanent division with people who have the necessary ability and which can keep the department, this House and the country well informed by means of continuous investigation of these matters. Since this is something which I think our department could do profitably, I just want to repeat that, after the findings of this conference, a permanent division may profitably be established to ensure that continuous investigation is instituted into all the problems affecting the abuse of alcohol and drugs. Aspects such as production, marketing and the location of off-sales concerns may be investigated profitably so that we will not need to wait for a special inquiry.

I want to thank the hon. the Minister and the department for the almost threefold increase in the amounts being appropriated for subsidies for co-operation with the registered bodies as set out under item O of Vote 25. I want to say at once that this is one of the things which may profitably be extended. The hon. member for Krugersdorp spoke about a levy on the sale of alcohol, but I feel the department should make far more available. The more the local communities are involved, the greater will be the co-operation and the awareness of the problem we are faced with. I am asking for this, although I know that the appropriation for this year already shows a threefold increase on that of the previous year. I believe that the work should be delegated in all spheres in cooperation with the local communities. In this way they can be involved in the problem, and the State will not always be regarded as the bully when it comes to problems relating to the abuse of drugs or alcohol. It is the task of every one of us, every member of the House of Assembly, to ensure that the persons in our country who go to ruin, the families that go to ruin and deteriorate into the worst conditions—White Coloured and Black—should be raised up. We should all agree and we should also involve our Coloured and Bantu leaders in this so that they will, as in the conference, have a hand in this. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, I should also like to extend my felicitations to the hon. the Minister and the hon. the Deputy Minister of Social Welfare and Pensions on their new and onerous positions. I wish them the best of good fortune, each in the particular posts which they occupy.

I want to deal basically with rehabilitation and I should like to ask the hon. the Minister a few questions in regard to that. Firstly, there is an entry “rehabilitation centre—Cullinan” on the Loan Vote, for which an amount of R1 million had been set aside previously but for which the nominal figure of only R50 has been indicated for this year. Therefore it implies that this might just be for planning and that the actual completion of this complex might not be due for another financial year. I wonder if the hon. the Minister could give some details as to when the completion is expected.

Then I want to refer to the overall position of the inmates of registered rehabilitation centres. The figures which I have for the 1968 to 1974 reveal that there has been almost a fourfold increase in the number of inmates. I look at this in two ways. I realize that it shows that there is a growing need for this sort of service, but it also indicates that there has been an extension in the facilities which were offered to these people. An analysis of the cases admitted indicates that over 3 300 of the cases were admitted for alcoholism and only 264 for drug addiction. Therefore you have a ratio of alcoholism to drug addiction at these rehabilitation centres of 12: 1. I should like to refer the hon. the Minister to the latest report of the Secretary for Justice. He refers to alcoholism as a very serious problem. Speakers before me in this debate have also expressed their concern about this. If one takes into consideration that over the time which I have mentioned, namely 1968 to 1974, consumer spending on alcohol increased by R265 million and in 1972 stood at the colossal amount of R584 million, and one compares that with the estimates before us now, where the total amount allocated for rehabilitation services for alcoholics and drug addicts stands at a little over R1 million, one realizes that much has to be done in this regard. The report of the Secretary for Justice goes further and in referring to liquor abuse also refers to “alcoholics in their thousands”. It then states in figures that during the year 1971-’72 more than 125 000 people of all races were convicted for drunkenness and that this figure was a 15% increase on the 1968 figure. I would like to draw the attention of the hon. the Minister to the fact that the Department of Justice in 1970 appointed a committee to investigate the desirability of control over the advertising of liquor. No report as yet has been made available to Parliament and my information is that the intention is that this matter could be dealt with in the Liquor Pill which is due to be introduced in 1975. There has been a five year time lag and the position is even more serious than that. In 1957 the commission appointed to investigate undesirable publications went out of their way in a special paragraph to indicate that they were concerned about the advertising of alcoholic beverages. They recommended that something should be done about this through the Department of Justice. I want to ask the hon. the Minister whether he as Minister of Social Welfare and Pensions has been consulted by the Department of Justice or has expressed an opinion in this regard. Does he not think that in so far as the promotion of alcoholic beverages is concerned, the time has come to examine very closely the methods that are used, particularly those directed at the youth of our country? I want to remind the hon. the Minister that in the Abuse of Dependence-producing Substances and Rehabilitation Centres Act, it is stated that “dependence-producing substances” means dependence-producing drugs and includes alcoholic liquor. I believe this hon. Minister has a personal interest in regard to this whole question of dependence-producing substances. The incidence of alcoholism appears to be much higher than that of drug addiction and I believe that this is a very significant factor.

I now want to turn to dagga. I would like to refer to the fact that the hon. member for Pinelands has participated twice in this debate, and to me it is a matter for regret that he did not take the opportunity publicly to indicate the attitude of the Progressive Party to dagga. I say this advisedly, because it stands in Hansard that the hon. member for Houghton took a very permissive attitude in regard to the personal use of dagga. I would like to have thought that the Progressive Party, for the sake of the record, would have used this opportunity during this Vote to indicate whether the party as such confirms or repudiates this attitude. I believe that it is a matter of interest to this House, and also a matter of interest to the people of South Africa, to know exactly where they stand in this matter.

I want to make it clear at the outset that the figures I am going to quote deal purely with Whites. In the year 1973 there were over 1 300 convictions for the possession of dagga and 70 convictions for dealing in dagga. The number of convictions in regard to dependence-producing drugs was very small compared to that. The number of convictions for the possession of dependence-producing drugs was 16 and the number for dealing in dependence-producing drugs was only 15. During a similar period, however, the South African Police indicate that more than 419 000 kg of dagga had been seized in the Republic of South Africa. The latest available report of the International Narcotics Control Board states that in 1972 in South Africa over two million kilograms of dagga was seized and destroyed. But the staggering fact is that, of the 64 countries listed in the same report, the amount of dagga which was seized in South Africa is six times the quantity seized in those 64 other countries in the world which reported on the seizure of dagga or cannabis, as they call it, in their respective countries.

I want to suggest to the hon. the Minister that there has not been enough emphasis in South Africa on the aspect of rehabilitation; because it would seem from the number of convictions and from the number of admittances to rehabilitation centres that I could well be right in this respect. I think that we have to accept that, in so far as the matter of dagga and dependence-producing drugs is concerned, the use often tends to lead to dealing in the particular substance, either dagga or dependence-producing drugs; because the dependent person finds continuity of supply if he dabbles in dealing with the substances involved.

I would like to draw the hon. the Minister’s attention to one final aspect, namely the position in regard to non-Whites. I know it is not his portfolio, but he administers the Abuse of Dependence-producing Substances and Rehabilitation Centres Act, and I want to point out to him that no rehabilitation centres whatsoever exist for Indians—they are in the planning stage only—and that, so far as the Bantu are concerned, they are totally inadequate, because only 16 Bantu have been committed to rehabilitation centres since 1971, when the Act was promulgated. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, during the debate which has now come to an end, I was, above all, struck by the large measure of goodwill that was displayed by both sides of the House. After I had participated in the debate for the first time, various hon. members congratulated me again on my appointment to this portfolio. I want to convey my sincere gratitude to them as well.

Generally speaking the discussion was quite positive. I was struck by the fact that a particularly wide range of subjects was raised, particularly on my side of the House—probably because there are a greater number of speakers, although I do not know whether this is the only reason. Hon. members on that side of the House concentrated more on individual points. Interesting ideas were raised, and we shall obviously consider these points as they have been referred to in the course of the debate.

Before dealing with individual standpoints adopted by certain hon. members, I want to deal with a few matters in general. In the first place, I was struck by the fact that speakers particularly on the Opposition side placed great emphasis on the increased and improved benefits in terms of existing schemes, or schemes they want to have introduced. I was particularly struck by the fact that not one single hon. member opposite occupied himself with the question as to where the money should come from. After all, it is quite easy to introduce and maintain services when one has unlimited means at one’s disposal. Apart from the financial means, technical staff is also required to introduce and maintain such services. It seems to me as if this matter has not been taken into account at all. My colleague, the hon. member for Stellenbosch, referred very ably to the responsibility children and members of the family have to take care of their parents and even their next-of-kin. I am very glad he has emphasized this matter, because I think this is something we in South Africa are inclined to forget. Too many people want to pass off their obligations to the State. This may also be the reason for the point made by the hon. member for Pine-lands, i.e. that we simply dump our aged in an old-age home and then think that we have done our duty.

I was further struck by the fact that a great deal has been said, particularly on the side of the Opposition, about the duty the State has in respect of civil and social pensioners. However, not one of the hon. members referred to the fact that there are some pensioners who, on account of inflation and the living conditions which were pictured, probably have to live under the same conditions although they are really people who draw a pension from private undertakings, where they were employed previously. Therefore, all we are concerned about is the responsibility of the State and not the lot of pensioners who were employed by commercial enterprises and industry. We do not ask what their position is or whether something could be done for those people. This I found to be upsetting.

I want to point out to hon. members who asked for assistance to be given to pensioners whose pensions have remained static for shorter or longer periods that there is a limit to what one is able to do. I read quite an interesting article about Sweden recently. We know that Sweden is perhaps the most perfect example of a welfare state, but it appears from the article that matters there have assumed such proportions that the industrialists and large commercial undertakings have protested and say that they can no longer bear the burden of the welfare state and that they will now consider withdrawing their investments from Sweden and will look for some other place where industries can be developed and where they do not have to bear such an enormous burden. Of course, our circumstances are not nearly similar to those of Sweden; as a matter of fact, I believe we shall never reach that stage under a National Party Government. However, I also believe that we should always bear in mind that we should not place measures on the Statute Book which will result in our gradual movement in that direction. For that reason hon. members should exercise some restraint when submitting requests and pleas for increased benefits.

The hon. member for Umbilo raised certain points I want to refer to briefly. I hoped it would be possible to furnish details of the subsidization of the service centres he referred to in the course of his speech. Hon. members will recall that an announcement on this matter was made in the course of the 1973 debate and therefore the hon. member has every right to ask for particulars. I have the particulars available but I know our time is limited and since it is the intention of the department to publish the full particulars in a departmental circular in any case, I do not think I should occupy the time of the House unnecessarily. The hon. member nods his head in agreement, and I am grateful that it meets with his approval. In any case, under sub-head Q, an initial appropriation of R120 000 is shown in respect of the subsidization of service centres, and the hon. member will therefore be able to see that we do have some plans in connection with this matter.

The announcement I made in connection with the investigations I shall have instituted to my mind replies to a certain extent to the points brought to my notice by the hon. member for Umbilo in connection with certain problems. Apart from that I nevertheless want to refer to some of the points he mentioned. In the first place, he referred to certain anomalies and said a person with an income exceeding R984 per year would forfeit R17 per month. What the hon. member said, is quite correct, but he should bear in mind that as long as we are dealing with certain limitations which are imposed, we shall always have border cases. It does not matter in which way one manipulates those limitations; there will always be border cases, and some people will fall just inside and others just outside the limit. If we have any success with the proposed investigation, an adjustment may possibly be made, but at this stage, one does not know what the outcome of such investigation is going to be.

If the minimum pension is less and if it is consolidated with the income permitted, the gap will not be as great.

Yes, that is correct. The gap will not be as great, but there will still be a gap. One may manipulate the figures, but one does not alter the principle. It does not change the principle of the existing gap.

If the minimum pensions were lower.

Yes, correct. The hon. member also put a question in regard to municipal valuations. We maintain the municipal valuation as on the day of application. It goes without saying that these municipal valuations increase in course of time, but we accept the municipal valuation we have before us when application is made. He also advocated the position of the self-employed. I am afraid this is an extremely difficult matter and we can render no assistance in their case. The only way in which we would be able to help them, would be not to take their income into account when they reach the age of 70 years. The implication of this would be that even the wealthiest entrepreneurs in the country would receive a pension and this is in conflict with the policy of the department and of the Government, because these pensions should be of a supplementary nature and should not be available to everyone.

But it also depends on what the person’s assets are.

Yes, it depends on that. That is correct. If the assets are such that the person qualifies for a pension, he may be considered. However, this is not a door we can throw open. We are not really in a position to help these people. The hon. member also pleaded for the socio-economic position of the aged. My department is fully informed on the socio-economic position of the aged. One of our chief officials obtained his doctors’ degree on this subject. On the basis of that and on the basis of practical experience, we distributed an information brochure on care of the aged. I do not think it is necessary to have that investigation conducted at this stage.

I now come to the hon. member for Pine-lands who pleaded for the narrowing of the gap between the pensions of the various population groups. I want to point out to him that we budgeted for an amount of no less than R95 million for social pensions this year. I ask him again to consider the question where the money must come from. He did not consider that aspect of the matter; he only dealt with the principle of the matter. The Minister of Finance has already indicated his willingness to oblige in this regard. As he has said, there has been some improvement as far as percentages are concerned, but no improvement as far as the real figures are concerned. The question is and remains: Where does this money have to come from? In any case, it is not for me to decide on this matter. If the hon. member wants to do so, he will have another opportunity to raise this matter with the Ministers concerned and to take it further with them.

The hon. member also pleaded for an advance on pensions at Christmas time. Considering our point of view when granting pensions, this is, of course, quite unacceptable. It is a sound idea, and one would like to give these people something with which they could buy something extra at Christmas time, but, Sir, the headache comes later. These pensions are being granted as a supplementary amount to help these people to a certain extent to be able to provide in their daily needs, and if we make it possible for them to spend this money in advance, the question arises as to what is going to happen in the month of January when they do not receive this money. Unfortunately, I therefore cannot associate myself with this idea he expressed.

In the second part of his speech he referred to the Cilliers committee. In announcing the proposed investigation of a pension scheme, I was, of course, referring to the Cilliers committee which drew attention to the importance of the transferability of pensions and a certain extent of standardization in regard to pensions. I think I have therefore replied to the point he made. In fact, I allowed myself to be guided to a certain extent by this Cilliers report when I decided that we would have this investigation conducted. We shall pay due regard to the Cilliers report when conducting that investigation.

The hon. member also referred to the valuation of buildings when applications are submitted for pensions and said that some pensioners had to appoint a valuator and had to pay R50 for this service. I want to tell the hon. member that we accept the valuation of the district pension official and if he comes across cases such as these he must simply refer them to the Social Welfare office to which the people submit their applications, and the officials will render the necessary assistance. There is no need for people who intend making application to pay this amount of R50.

Sir, I want to deal with civil pensioners next. The hon. member for South Coast and also the hon. member for Durban Central again raised the matter of civil pensioners who experienced problems in connection with their pensions. To a certain extent I take it amiss of them for raising individual cases here across the floor of the House. This is not the ideal place to do so. This also applies to the hon. member for Constantia who is not here at the moment, but who apologized for the fact that he would not be present here. I do not think this House is the place where one should discuss individual problems. Sir, the hon. member for South Coast also quoted incorrect information, which I shall put right in a moment. I want to tell hon. members that the State, as far as its civil pensioners are concerned, has met its obligations in full in accordance with the legislation in terms of which those pensioners have been receiving a pension. I do not think we shall quarrel about that. The hon. members agree that those pensioners have received and are still receiving every cent they were entitled to up to the date of their retirement from the Service in terms of the relevant Act. I think this is accepted generally. But I also want to say that the State is not indifferent to the needs of those people, as is proved by the fact that it has from time to time supplemented quite considerably the pensions of those people out of the pocket of the taxpayer over all these years. The State could just as well have remained indifferent and could have said: “You receive everything you have been entitled to; we have nothing to do with you any longer.” But, Sir, this was not the attitude the Government adopted in this respect. The pensions were supplemented by the Government from time to time, but to do what the hon. member for Durban Central wants us to do, i.e. that we should link the pensions to the cost-of-living index figure, is an impossible task. Nowhere in the world has this succeeded, and now the hon. member wants us to do so. When I asked him whether he was able to quote an example, he asked that we should investigate the matter.

Is the hon. the Minister aware that the 1973 Social Security Act in Britain makes provision for the maintenance of the present purchasing power of a State pension by means of regular annual reviews?

Sir, I have knowledge of a great many changes which were tried out in Britain in particular. Previously hon. speakers on the Opposition side—I am not referring to this debate now—also held out Britain as an example why we should operate a national contributory scheme. That scheme of Britain’s to which hon. members referred, failed long ago and since that time the Labour Government in England has produced new schemes repeatedly. We know everything about that.

Sir, I come back to my argument that the State did not leave the old pensioners in the lurch, but has supplemented their pensions consistently. The latest example of this is the one the hon. member for South Coast referred to, i.e. that we have supplemented the pensions of all pensioners receiving less than R250 per month by giving them an additional R25. The pensions of all the pensioners who were receiving more than R250 per month were supplemented by 10%. These are the correct figures. But the hon. member for Durban Central, on account of what was said by the hon. members for Durban Central and South Coast about the pensioners of the period prior to 1968, referred here to letters he had received. I also receive letters, and the Minister of Finance also receives letters from those people. We know what the position of those people is, but at the same time I think we must be reasonable and ask ourselves what the background to this matter is. In spite of the fact that these people have received everything they were entitled to in terms of the legislation at the time of their retirement, the Government has supplemented the pensions of these people to the extent of more than 100% during the course of years. There are even cases in which people received an increase of 400%. The hon. member for Durban Central discussed the case of a pensioner he did not, in fact, identify. I do not want him to identify a case in this House either, but I gained the impression that it was a case of a person who was employed in the Natal Education Department a long time ago and that he is probably the person who preferred a gratuity, a considerable gratuity, to a pension. I do not know whether this is correct, but this is a possibility. Furthermore, I want to say that as far as its pensioners are concerned, the State made provision for these people to be able to buy service and there are many of them—and this I want to emphasize, who are not prepared to buy such service because they relied on receiving assistance from the State. I do not say this is so in the case of the person to whom the hon. member for Durban Central referred.

At that time they were not yet able to buy.

I want to tell the hon. members for Durban Central and South Coast that we should take all these things into consideration. I do not want to read them a lesson as to what the duties of a member of Parliament are, but I do think it is the duty of a member of Parliament to act very judiciously in these cases and to give guidance to the people. I know this is one of the major problems a member of Parliament has, i.e. that the pensioners come to him and bring pressure to bear upon him. I was in that same position myself and found that when he furnishes him with the real facts and explains the position to him, it is not necessary to get up in this House and to plead for individual cases.

They ask for this to be done.

The hon. member for Constantia, who. I believe, is an expert in the financial sphere, really surprised me. The hon. the Deputy Minister has already replied to his question, but I want to ask him this, and that is whether he—and I am putting this question to him as a person who has some knowledge of financial matters—realizes that this lady to whom he referred would only be excluded if her assets exceeded R22 000 apart from her income of R39 per month. I wonder whether he has ever taken this into consideration. I do not think he could have done so, for otherwise he would not have had the courage to come along and plead her case in this House. With reference to the figures he furnished in connection with the increase in the cost of living, I want to mention for his information that old-age pensions have increased by more than 39% from 1 October 1973.

The hon. member for Albany raised a very important matter, and that is the possible abolition of the means test in respect of war veterans of the 1914-T8 war. This matter was carefully investigated in 1969. My department took this matter further and made a careful analysis of the position up to 31 December 1973. All the possible implications of that matter were investigated. I want to tell the hon. member that the amount that would be involved, should the Government be prepared to consider this matter, would not be an impossible amount although I do not have the authority to decide on this matter. This amount may vary between R800 000 and R900 000. Of course, this will depend on what the precise figures are, because my figures are merely estimates and forward estimates. These are projections we have made. I want to ask the hon. member what moral justification there is for the Government to do away with the means test in respect of the war veterans of the 1914-T8 war and not to do so in respect of the war veterans of the 1939-’45 war? Surely one is unable to defend a matter such as this. Their position is comparable, apart from the fact that the war veterans of the 1914-’18 war will be much older. The hon. member did not advance his plea on the basis of the indigence of these people. His plea was that it should be a gesture of goodwill and recognition on the part of the Government. I want to say that we have recognized the services and sacrifices of those people in many other ways. That matter is not relevant here. If it has to be done on that basis, it is impossible for us not to give it to the war veterans of the 1939-’45 war also. For that reason we unfortunately cannot accede to his suggestion.

The hon. member for Albany also referred to certain cases where the allowances are withdrawn. I want to tell him in the first place that some of the cases he mentioned here are, of course, the responsibility of my colleague, the Minister of Health. I am referring here to the residents of the institutions for mental patients, and so on. As far as the others are concerned, I think he should bring to our attention any individual cases he comes across so that we can consider them. Of course, the general rule is for these people to be admitted to institutions and for the State to care for them there and that they, in our judgment, are for that reason not entitled or should not be entitled to such further pensions. I invite the hon. member to bring to the notice of my department specific cases.

The hon. member for Westdene raised very important matters here, to which my hon. colleague, the Deputy Minister, partly replied to. I now want to tell him that the fear he expressed here that, parallel to the services rendered by the Department of Social Welfare and Pensions there may be private organizations which provide similar services so that one may eventually find some overlapping, is something we shall watch very carefully. We shall have to consider whether it is necessary to take steps in this regard. He laid emphasis on the place welfare work must take in the community—something I agree with—as well as the forward planning to which my hon. colleague has referred.

To my mind the hon. member for Port Elizabeth North gave a fine testimonial on the activities of my department, and I am grateful to him for doing so.

With regard to the inquiries made by the hon. member for Kempton Park in connection with the old-age home there, I want to explain to him that the Department of Social Welfare and Pensions only determines the requirements and that it is the task of the Department of Community Development to render the service. What he should really do, is to bring pressure to bear on that department. The hon. member also asked that the Department of Social Welfare and Pensions be given representation on the Growth Points Committee. I think this idea has some merit, and I shall discuss it further with my colleague, the hon. the Minister of Planning.

The hon. member for Krugersdorp, as well as the hon. member for Caledon, made quite illuminative speeches on excessive drinking, drug addiction and the services rendered in respect thereof. It is interesting that both of them are medical men on my side of the house, and that both of them discussed this subject when they participated in the debate. I am very grateful for the emphasis they have placed on excessive drinking again. We are quite rightly engaged in combating drugs. At the moment drugs serve as a deterrent to us, but the other major enemy, perhaps the greatest enemy, is and remains excessive drinking. We must not lose sight of this; for that reason I am particularly pleased that the hon. members emphasized it to the extent they did. The hon. member for Krugersdorp suggested that a levy be imposed on every bottle of liquor for the purposes of combating excessive drinking. I want to tell him that all Ministers of Finance throughout the world are very reluctant specifically to earmark particular sources for particular services. The hon. member referred to the levy of 50 cents added to third party insurance for purposes of road safety. Then of course we also have a levy on motor vehicle fuel for the road fund. The hon. member can quote these two examples, but I do not think he can quote any further examples. The Minister of Finance usually acts on the premise that if the State is compelled to maintain or introduce a service it has to find the necessary means from the general source of revenue.

The hon. member for Hercules raised a very important matter, i.e. the question of probationary services. He wanted to know what progress we have made in that regard. The Department of Social Welfare is dealing with the matter and has made splendid progress. The hon. the Minister of Justice made an announcement in connection with an inquiry into the penal system, something in which our entire project is involved. It is interesting to note that as recently as last year the hon. the Minister of Justice was still the Deputy Minister of Social Welfare and Pensions, and has probably taken the idea with him. Obviously, some consultation will take place between us. I do not want to make representations to the hon. the Minister of Justice also to appoint the Department of Social Welfare to this committee, because he probably has reasons for not having us there. However, I think he will take cognizance of the representations the hon. member has made.

The hon. member for Caledon referred to the international conference which will be held and asked for the establishment of a permanent department which would flow from the resolutions passed at the conference. I want to inform him that we have a special directorate on habit-forming substances and we must content ourselves with that for the time being. It is obvious that we shall see what the conference produces and that we shall take that into consideration. For the rest, I thank him for the fine testimonial he gave us, not only on the activities of the department, but also on the numerous welfare organizations which co-operate with it.

The hon. member for Simonstown has already been furnished with a reply, but I just want to tell him that regular inspections are carried out of homes operated by private undertakings on behalf of the department. He said it was a temporary measure seen from the point of view of those people, but I want to tell him that some of these institutions have been rendering these services for as long as five years and that I cannot simply agree with him.

The hon. member for Berea wanted to know when the project proposed at Cullinan, i.e. the rehabilitation centre there, will be completed. This is a most difficult question to reply to because in this connection we are, of course, in the hand of the Treasury and the Department of Public Works. The fact that this item appears in the departmental budget, is an indication to the hon. member that we are moving in that direction.

The hon. member also referred to the extremely important matter of alcoholism, and my medical colleagues on this side of the House and I myself am grateful to him for this. I do not think there is an institution in this country which knows how many alcoholics we have in the country. However, we must not generalize. We must not simply accept that any person who appears in court because of driving under the influence of liquor or on account of some or other offence committed under the influence of liquor, is necessarily an alcoholic. The hon. member will appreciate that this is not the case. He also raised the question of liquor advertisements. I am aware of the fact that the hon. the Minister of Justice will discuss this matter under his Vote, and I do not want to anticipate him.

The hon. member also raised the very important matter of addiction to dagga. I have quite interesting information, but I do not want to take up the time of the House for too long. I am grateful that the hon. member reminded the Progressive Party again that they are called upon to adopt an attitude regarding the use of dagga in this country in the light of what the hon. member for Houghton has said. I think it is time they adopted an attitude in regard to this matter. The number of prosecutions during the period 1 July 1972 to 30 June 1973, compared with those during the period 1 July 1970 to 30 June 1971, i.e. the period immediately preceding the coming into operation of the act, dropped considerably, i.e. by 31,02%. As far as other drugs are concerned, there was an increase of 37,012% during the same period. If one takes the amount of dagga destroyed during 1970-’71 at 100%, the amount destroyed in 1972-73 was 88,37%. We attribute this drop to steps taken in terms of this legislation. The extension at he rehabilitation centre he pleaded for has been carried out. It goes without saying that we are only able to expand in a judicious way. We have to consider both the staff position and the requirements. However, I want to tell him that accommodation is still available at the rehabilitation centres at present. Of course, we cannot collect the people on our own initiative in the streets and take them there. They are sent to us. Sir, with this I think I have tried to do justice to the questions that were put. If I have omitted any, hon. members are free to ask questions.

I just want to ask the hon. the Minister what progress has been made with investigations into the possibility of old-age pensions for members of religious organizations, and whether it is possible to give us an indication now as to what the position is.

That matter came to my attention for the first time only a few days ago. I think I know what the hon. member is referring to, i.e. the position in connection with the Roman Catholic Church.

And the Anglican Church.

Yes. I am afraid that I am not in a position now to express a considered opinion on that matter.

Mr. Chairman, I did not intend to participate in this debate, but I cannot resist the hon. the Minister’s invitation to clarify my position and that of my party on the question of dagga. I was not going to bother to answer the hon. member for Berea, because I am not interested in his point of view. I simply would like to inform the hon. the Minister. First of all, my party and I are against the use of habit-forming drugs. I have made that clear right from the very beginning throughout all the debates we have had in this House. The party, just like I myself, is against the use of dagga or of any habit-forming drugs—I have made that very clear indeed—just as we are against crime of any kind. My own personal view on dagga, which I also made absolutely clear at the time, is that the possession for personal use of dagga should not be a penal offence. That view is not held by the party. The party has no particular view on the subject as far as that is concerned. That is my personal view. We are all against the use of dagga and other habit-forming drugs. It is how you handle the whole problem that is the issue. For my part, I do not believe that sending users of dagga to goal is the way in which to handle the problem.

Then who is going to supply them with the dagga?

The peddling of drugs should continue, in my view, to be an offence. I will tell the hon. member that this is in order not to encourage the use of dagga and not to make it easier to obtain, but you do not send users to goal. You rehabilitate them. You educate them as to the dangers of dagga-smoking.

What about alcohol?

I am coming to alcohol. This view, I might say, is borne out by research done by three official commissions, one in the United States, one in Britain and one in Canada, all of which made the same recommendations. Although the law has not been changed, in practice their recommendations as regards the use of marijuana, or dagga as we call it here, in fact are being carried out. There are fewer and fewer arrests for the possession for personal use of marijuana in these countries.

I wish the former hon. Minister of Social Welfare and Pensions were present. If he thinks that the Draconian laws which he introduced to control the use of dagga have been effective, he is making a very big mistake indeed. It is perfectly true that the number of convictions has dropped over the last two years, but I want to point out what has been said about this by the man who knows most about it in this country, Dr. De Miranda, who is the man in charge of the Crisis Clinic in Johannesburg. This is what he said—

That is borne out by everything which has been said about the increase in the use of alcohol in South Africa, that fantastic jump in the figure for the consumption of alcohol which is now somewhere in the region of R580 million per annum, if my memory serves me correctly. That is what should be worrying the hon. the Minister. Our youth, and Africans who are the main users of dagga, are turning now to alcohol which in the opinion of many medical men is a far more dangerous drug than dagga used in small quantities and not used regularly.

Why do you not quote Dr. Bensusan?

I pay no attention to Dr. Bensusan who knows absolutely nothing about this subject … [Interjections.] … although he professes to be an expert. I do not say that I am an expert; I am relying entirely on the findings of three expert commissions which by no means bear out the findings of Dr. Bensusan, I might add. As Dr. De Miranda has pointed out, the new drug law “has driven the drug scene underground”. That is all it has done. It has driven the problem underground and now one sees only the tip of the iceberg in the convictions that result, since people are obviously more careful because they know of the harsh penalties, minimum sentences, without the discretion of the courts of law, which have been laid down in the new laws. Apart from the fact that the problem has been driven underground, the other important aspect is that people are turning more and more to the use of alcohol. South Africa should not be deceived by the figures of the lower convictions for drugs as a result of the new laws.

Our position is clear. This party is against the use of habit-forming drugs in any form. I do not believe that the way to deal with the problem is to send people to goal for addiction. I believe the way to do it is to undertake a huge programme of education at our schools and universities, through the medium of the Press and the radio and when we get it, television, in order to point out the dangers of using addictive drugs. This is the first point, and the second is that where people have already unfortunately become addicted, the way to treat the problem is to rehabilitate such people. Despite the fact that the drugs law in concept and size contains more provisions about rehabilitation than it does about punishment, it is interesting to note that in the two years since the drugs law was passed the rehabilitation side of it is practically nil. Where are the centres to cope with the dagga-addicted people among the Africans; where are the centres to cope with the Coloured people? I think there are two centres coping with the problem as far as White people are concerned. On the other hand the goals are full and if the hon. members think that in this day and age that is the way to cope with the drugs problem, then I am afraid they have been very much misled. The trouble with South Africa is that it believes in punitive measures rather than in education and rehabilitation as far as the drugs problem is concerned.

Votes agreed to.

Revenue Vote No. 30, Loan Vote P and S.W.A. Vote No. 17.—“Mines”:

Mr. Chairman, as this is the first occasion on which I have to introduce the discussion on the Mines Vote, I should like to take this opportunity of referring to the fact that the hon. member for Rosettenville has handled this task with great distinction for the past 16 years. He has now taken his well-earned retirement from this particular responsibility and we wish him well and peaceful release from this obligation.

We discuss this Vote at a time of renewed significance for the mining industry. For a good many years now the mining industry has in fact been taking a place of relatively less importance in the economy and industrial development of South Africa. That is not to say that the mining industry itself has been shrinking as an industry. Its relative position, however, in relation to other industrial growth in the country, has been less extensive than in previous years. We see, however, a remarkable revival in the mining industry at this time. It is a revival which we must all welcome because there is no doubt that the anticipated doubling of the population in only 25 years will place an enormous burden on the industry and on the whole economy. The contribution that mining will make to our balance of trade and to the economy as such will be a vital one. The resurgence in mining, not only in gold mining but also as evidenced in the rapid growth in the base metal mining industry, could not have come at a more opportune time. We have not only seen a great increase in the value of gold produced, due very largely to the increased price, but we have also seen a considerable expansion in the production of diamonds, asbestos, coal, chromite, copper, iron-ore, nickel, silver and vanadium. I see that the departmental report refers with a little despondency, to the depressed market for uranium. I think, however, that since the report was written, that particular market has also greatly improved and looks very attractive to our uranium producers.

This happy picture is one which is spoilt, however, by certain factors to which I want to refer briefly this morning. The spectre of inflation has become very apparent in the mining industry. Even those branches of the mining industry which, because of their vast organization, careful planning, bulk purchases and so forth, would have tended to insulate themselves to some extent against inflation, have found that inflation is rapidly eroding their ability to extract metals as profitably as they used to do. If the price of gold had to return today to what it was previously, say 42½ dollars per ounce, or even 35 dollars, all or nearly all the gold mines in this country would have to go out of business because the cost of producing a fine ounce of gold is in excess of the price that used to apply to gold. I believe that something must be done to stop the gold-mining industry and the other mining industries from being eroded at the rate at which they are now being eroded by inflation. Nevertheless, as I shall indicate in a moment, the pressures are still on, and something more will also have to be done about increasing wages. I therefore believe that we are caught in a very cruel dilemma as far as this situation is concerned. We would welcome the Minister’s views on how he sees the future.

Sir, the other problem which we must look at with some concern is that of labour in the mining industry. In the case of White labour there has been a steady decline in the employment of White labour in the mines and, indeed, in the availability of White labour for the mines. There has been a steady loss of skilled professionals and technicians required by the mining industry and a quite inadequate replacement from South African sources, through the universities, of those particular categories of people. It is a matter of great concern, Sir.

For some years now the industry and the Government have tried to make up this shortage by recruitment overseas, and this, of course, is fully justified if these gaps have got to be filled, but it is a matter for considerable regret that young South Africans do not see in these traditional professions of South Africa, in this growing profession, this widening profession with more and more opportunities, particularly in the base minerals field, an opportunity to make a career as geologists, mining engineers and professionals of various kinds. It is a great pity that this should be so, and I believe that more should be done to encourage more young South Africans to believe that the mining industry is not a dying industry, as it was fashionable to say, but in fact a growing industry, one which offers enormous opportunities for young South Africans.

I believe, Sir, that it is also necessary in the skilled trades and in the professional occupations in the mining industry to make more provision for the training of Black people and Brown people. I believe that particularly with the growth of the mining industry in the homeland areas and other parts of the country, there should be a greater availability of jobs for these people and a greater effort on the part of the Black people of South Africa to enter these professional and technical occupations which will be open to them. I believe that one other thing which the hon. the Minister must look at is the creation of better training facilities, both at university and technical college level, for people in these categories.

Sir, we see that even in the Department of Mines and in the Geological Survey Division of the Department of Mines there has been a diminution of people able to hold these professional and technical posts. I notice, Sir, that as far back as 1970 there was concern about this position and it was stated that a five-year programme drawn up for the staffing of that division could not be undertaken because the Public Service Commission was due to undertake an inspection of the whole organization. That was in 1970. We find in the report which appeared in 1974, but which covers the year 1973, that they were still hopeful that that report would be received in 1974. After these many setbacks and many delays in this very important field, I hope that at last a report has been produced by the Public Service Commission, that it has been studied and that its recommendations are being implemented.

Sir, in the case of Black labour we also have a situation which causes considerable concern. Over the years we have relied very heavily on labour known as tropical labour, which is very largely from such areas as Malawi; and on East Coast labour, which is drawn very largely from Mozambique, and these supply a very large percentage of the labour required by our mining industry. We now find that there is considerable concern in the mining industry as to whether this kind of labour will be available in future. We are aware that President Banda of Malawi is reconsidering the agreement whereby it was possible for South Africa to recruit labour in Malawi, and it is very much open to question whether the South African mining industry will be able to continue to rely on that very valuable and important source of labour.

We now have a further question in regard to Mozambique. It is not yet clear what the attitude of the new Government of Mozambique will be to the continuation of the arrangement for the recruitment of labour there. This again is a very large source of labour running as high, I believe, as 160 000. If this source, and a very valuable source, of talented labour, which is highly appreciated by the gold-mining industry, is in fact cut off, it will be a matter of very grave concern and we shall have to think very seriously about a radical change of policy for the recruitment of labour for our mines.

Order! The hon. member’s time has expired.

Sir, I have no objection to the hon. member continuing.

I thank the hon. the Minister for giving me the opportunity to continue. If we in fact have to contemplate the possibility of losing these important sources of labour, we shall have to look very seriously at the availability of mining labour in South Africa. We have not succeeded at any point in becoming independent of foreign labour, nor, do I believe, was the attempt ever made. We may now well have to reconsider our attitude in relation to the employment of labour and to discover whether in fact the loss or the potential loss of labour from Malawi and Mozambique can be made up by the recruitment of labour from various parts of South Africa. I believe that it could be done. I believe there is very substantial unemployment or under-employment in many parts of South Africa and that the mining industry could in fact offer the conditions of employment which could satisfy the labour which is still looking for work in South Africa.

I want to make just a few more points in regard, to the matter of energy. I have already spoken in a previous debate—on the Vote of the hon. the Minister of Planning—about the energy situation. I believe that the hon. the Minister of Mines has a particular responsibility in this regard and I would like to see him taking a larger responsibility in the field of energy. The hon. the Minister of Planning is the coordinator more than, I would suggest, the instigator directly responsible for the development of our energy resources. As far as the Department of Mines is concerned, it is already responsible for the uranium industry and for the Atomic Energy Board, which is concerned with the production of nuclear energy. It appears that the hon. the Minister of Mines is also responsible for the coal industry and I believe that the present inquiry into the coal industry is being conducted under the patronage or control of the hon. the Minister of Mines.

We find nevertheless that the Fuel Research Board, which deals mainly with coal research, reports to the hon. the Minister of Economic Affairs. We find that the hon. the Minister of Mines is responsible for the oil search. He is the Minister to whom Soekor reports; and we would in fact welcome seeing a report by Soekor. We find, curiously enough, that the hon. the Minister of Mines, according to his department’s report, appears to be responsible for the Orange-Fish River tunnel, which one would reasonably have expected to fall under the hon. the Minister of Water Affairs. There are many such anomalies and I believe that at the time when energy is in fact becoming a vital matter for the growth of this country and the maintenance of our economy, the hon. the Minister of Mines should be authorized to take a much more central position, a co-ordinating position with a greater degree of responsibility for the development of energy, particularly in view of the fact that the main energy fuels fall under the control of his department. I am not attacking the Minister for not having this responsibility, but I believe the whole question of co-ordination needs careful looking at in the light of the energy crisis and South Africa’s needs in the field of energy. I believe the hon. the Minister of Mines has a task to do in this regard and that the present state of apparent confusion in the division of these portfolios needs urgent revision. I would suggest that the medical duties of the Department of Mines, that is to say, overseeing the question of occupational diseases of the mines, could well fall under the Department of Health. I believe there is a need for much more rationalization and organization in this department, and we are anxious to hear from the Minister whether he proposes to do something about that need.

Mr. Chairman, I shall not react to the hon. member for Von Brandis at once; perhaps I shall do so a little later. I see that Mr. Uys, the Secretary for the Department, is not here this morning.

He will be here shortly.

The hon. the Minister says that he will be here shortly. Mr. Uys is soon to retire from the service of the Department of Mines, in which he has served for approximately 47 years. Mr. Uys joined the Department of Social Welfare and Pensions as a young man and was subsequently transferred to the Department of Mines. He worked himself up until he had reached the top of the ladder in that department. I want to thank him very much this morning for that very long and fine career, and as an ex-miner I want to wish him all the best in his approaching retirement and I want to express the hope that he will be spared for many years and will enjoy a very pleasant retirement.

We are discussing the Mining Vote today. The way the mining industry is developing today, it is no passing industry. It is an industry which will remain the largest industry in our country in the years that lie ahead, just as it has been in the past. This will probably continue to be the case for many years. The mines existing today, which have already been enumerated by the hon. member for Von Brandis, i.e. the gold mines, the coal mines, the copper mines, the platinum mines, the chrome mines, the diamond mines, not to mention the iron ore and the manganese mines, will probably be able to earn approximately R6 000 million for the country round about 1980. This is a fantastic amount. It is for this reason that I am emphasizing today that this powerful industry, which will remain for many years the goose that lays the golden eggs, will continue to require the services of the young and able men of South Africa. I want to appeal to these young men to devote themselves to the mining industry. I want to ask them to choose the mining industry as their career, for I do not believe that there are many other careers which could offer them as great a challenge as is offered by the mining industry itself. Accordingly, we should make the mining industry attractive. We should ensure a good income and security in the mining industry. We should constantly endeavour to improve the benefits available in the mining industry. We should not try to improve the benefits of the White worker only, but we should also try to do so in respect of the non-Whites in the mining industry. I am very glad to see that many of our Black labourers are returning to the mining industry today to offer their services there. We know that we have experienced problems lately in recruiting labour for the mining industry. I believe that with the fine benefits which are now being offered the Black people will flock back to the mining industry. I may just mention that approximately 6 000 Black workers who were not recruited in malawi or Mozambique, but in the Republic itself, recently offered their services to the mining industry again. The mining industry offers good facilities to all its workers, Whites as well as Blacks. I want to break a lance for the miner today. I should very much like the miner also to have that benefit in the future. I am pleading today for a five-day working week. One of the main reasons why the mines are losing their labourers today is the fact that the industrialist offers his Black and his White workers a five-day working week. In the mining industry, however, the workers still have to work a six-day week. The mining industry is the only industry in which the number of workers has dropped sharply, while the production has increased tremendously. This is not so much owing to an increase in the gold production as to an increase in the tonnage of ore which passes through our mills every year. I want to plead for those workers today. Without interfering with the negotiations which are taking place between the Chamber of Mines and the various trade unions, I want to make a serious appeal to the Chamber of Mines on behalf of this side of the House today to conduct a thorough investigation into this matter and to make it possible for the miner, too, to work a five-day week. I understand that it has been suggested that the miners should get one day a week off. That would be of no use to them. The workers who work underground also want to make arrangements on a Friday afternoon for a weekend’s relaxation, as the rest of South Africa’s workers do. At present, and particularly since we have been saddled with fuel problems, it is absolutely impossible for those workers to tell whether they will be able to go away for a weekend with their families. I want to make an earnest appeal to the Chamber of Mines to see whether it cannot obtain a five-day working week for the miner. If this could be done, I believe that we could win back the ambitious man for the mining industry, where he could make a great success of his career. In addition, we could win back for our mining industry the great number of Black workers who are working in the factories today. This would make us less dependent on the foreign Bantu we have to recruit in great numbers to work on the mines. This would also make the mining industry more attractive to our homeland Bantu. I know it will be said that the Government has nothing to do with this and that it is purely a matter for the trade unions and for the Chamber of Mines, but as a former miner I want to raise my voice in the highest Assembly in our country today and I want to say that I have always been in favour and that I am still in favour of a five-day working week for the miner as well. The miner is not asking for shorter hours, for he is prepared to work in these hours. I can give the assurance today that as far as production is concerned, the mines would lose nothing by such an arrangement.

I also want to thank the hon. the Minister very much for the Mines and Works Act which came into operation during the past year. This Act has been in force for a year now. I want to thank the department very much for the great trouble they have taken and for the patient manner in which the miner is examined by the Pneumoconiosis Council. Certain problems still remain, but I am sure and I believe that all the minor problems will be ironed out in the years to come. I can give hon. members the assurance that this Act has already brought great advantages and given great satisfaction to the miners during its first year of existence. One again I want to express my sincere thanks to the department and to the hon. the Minister for the fact that we were able to put that Act into operation on 1 October last year. [Time expired.]

Business suspended at 12.45 p.m. and resumed at 2.20 p.m.

Afternoon Sitting

Mr. Chairman, I listened with great interest to what the hon. member for Stilfontein said immediately prior to the adjournment, and a lot of what he said I agree with. I hope he will not mind when I say, in regard to the five-day week, that although I agree with the sentiments he expressed, the national interest in regard to production also has to be borne in mind.

I should like to congratulate the hon. the Minister on what has undoubtedly been an outstanding year for the mining industry in our country, an industry in which as the hon. member for Boksburg, who is not here now, has ad nauseum stated, I have an interest. I hope that on this occasion, had he been present, he would have agreed that he shared that interest. Sir, the figures speak for themselves. The hon. the Minister, I think, will agree with me that we had great good fortune last year. Those figures serve to re-emphasize, if that is necessary, and to reiterate how important it is to our economic development and prosperity that the abundant wealth of metals and minerals which has been bestowed upon this country should be turned to the best possible account in the interests of all the inhabitants of our country. Sir, my concern this afternoon is basically to ask the hon. the Minister to consider and to endorse the fact that we should be ready and be prepared to take all the necessary steps, in so far as it is possible to do so, to ensure that we will continue to enjoy the same good fortune and indeed, I hope, on an increased scale in the future. Now, the hon. the Minister and all the other hon. members will know that the overwhelming contributor was of course gold, mainly due to the very substantial increase in the price of gold per ounce that we realized in 1973. On the basis of the first 10 months of this year, this should again show a very substantial increase as the non-monetary price for gold yesterday was 158,25 dollars, as compared with the average received last year of 97 dollars. I am cautiously optimistic, too, that the price of gold will continue to rise, but it must be expected that there will be quite wide fluctuations from time to time.

Now, against that background there are a number of points which need to be made if the gold-mining industry is going to be encouraged to expand anew, as it is capable of doing at this point of time and as it should do for the benefit of all of us. In order to do so, it has to have the ability to do basically three things. It has to have the ability to raise the necessary capital for new mines or substantial extensions to existing mines; it has to have the ability to weather temporary but perhaps relatively severe falls in the price of gold and, thirdly, it has to have the ability to attract sufficient labour. I should like to touch on these three points—and I have no time to do more—in reverse order.

The report of the Department of the hon. the Minister of Mines states that 72,35% of the labour of our country’s gold and platinum mines came from outside our country. That simple fact must be seen against the pace of developments outside our borders. The long-term answer for us would appear to be clearly that we have to move towards a situation where both our present—there are, of course, special factors at the present time—and future requirements will be met, if not fully, at least to the greatest possible extent from within our own borders and including in this context, Lesotho. Now, mechanization and the ability to train and use labour to the height of its productive ability could and would go part of the way, but it cannot go the whole way, even for the present state of operations of the mines, let alone to allow for future potential expansion. This means no less than that our mining companies will have to pay wages which will be competitive, when all the elements of the package are taken into account, with the terms and conditions offered by industry and commerce in general in South Africa, and for instance with those offered by the State corporations such as Iscor and Escom. It goes even further, in that it is probable that the mines will have to pay a premium over and above that to encourage people to come and work there, for the simple fact is that work in the mines is less attractive than work in commerce and industry, and unfortunately it is more dangerous. The mining industry’s record in regard to wages has in the past undoubtedly left something to be desired, as it does still, but these matters are rapidly being put right, as indeed they must and should be. The hon. the Minister will know that it needs more than money to attract the required numbers to come and work permanently in our gold mines. The mining industry has already begun to improve its arrangements for the recruiting, transport and living conditions of its Black workers, but there is unfortunately still some way to go. Further improved job opportunities for Black workers, together with the necessary training, will have to be negotiated and introduced with the agreement of the Mineworkers’ Union. Some form of collective bargaining will inevitably have to be introduced. It should be noticed, as the hon. the Minister will know, that at present even works and liaison committees are not allowed for in the mining industry. This is not good enough for today, and for tomorrow it will be disastrous. Finally, the hon. the Minister will know that the present 3% allowance for married quarters will have to be raised to a marked degree, because the simple fact is that without labour we cannot mine the ore which would otherwise be available, and it is no more and no less than sound economic sense to take the necessary steps.

It is important to recognize that for more than half the present gold mines in our country, including all the big producers, the substantial increases in black wages do not present a problem. Because of this people tend to think without exception that all gold mines are vastly profitable. This is of course not the case. There are a comparatively large number of marginal mines. It is only three years ago that as many as 20 of the gold mining companies were being subsidized by the Government in terms of the State Assistance Act. That Act was a very wise measure on the part of the Government, as it enabled a number of mines to stay in operation and to reap the benefit of the subsequent increases in prices of gold. The probability is that the Government will have to intervene again on behalf of these marginal mines as they go through a period of time when increases in wages of the order I have mentioned together with general increases in costs, outpace the rise in the gold price, or in times when the price of gold is temporarily falling. Now some of these new mines, and indeed the major extensions to existing mines, may well need the same type of assistance, and I hope that the hon. the Minister will consider this and will provide it for the benefit of the industry. The hon. Minister, too, I hope, will agree with me that this can be done with confidence; that in time the price of gold will rise and the need for such assistance will fall away. The really important thing is that the mines should and must get the labour they need to maintain and to increase the gold production of this country, and the profitable mines must not be held back from paying the wages necessary to attract it by what is likely to be the temporary difficulties of the marginal mines.

The hon. member for Johannesburg North has made a very positive speech. I take it that he is an expert on the subject of gold, since he is associated with one of our big mining companies in South Africa.

I am very grateful for the discussion that has taken place so far, grateful for the fact that we have had a responsible discussion here on one of our important departments. I am grateful for the fact that we have refrained from petty politicising, for when one is dealing with the Department of Mines—I say this without disparaging any of the other departments—I believe that one is dealing with one of the most important departments of all. One wonders what the position in South Africa would have been without the vast mineral wealth which lies buried in the soil of our fatherland. We could talk about this department for hours on end.

However, I want to devote the short time available to me this afternoon to a discussion of uranium and the enrichment of uranium. I want to say to you, Sir, that this fine country, South Africa, has produced scientists in the past who have been renowned in the outside world for their achievements. As far as the enrichment of uranium is concerned, I believe that this was one of the greatest scientific discoveries ever made, one which will have tremendous significance for South Africa at home and which has won us great fame abroad. In this respect I may perhaps refer for a moment to the words of the hon. the Prime Minister, and I quote from Hansard of 20 July 1970, Col. 56, where he said the following in connection with this important matter—

This being the case, we must indeed pay great tribute to those scientists. Sir, where the Government is now intending to build a modern uranium enrichment plant—I just want to mention here that this is something different from the pilot plant on which the Government is presently engaged—I should just like to mention a few figures for the sake of interest and for the record, to show you the extent of this uranium enrichment plant which is being envisaged by the Government. This plant would process approximately 12 000 metric tons of uranium a year; it would cost approximately R550 million. As against this, a corresponding gas diffusion plant based on American technology would cost approximately R800 million. Ours in South Africa would cost approximately R550 million. The electricity consumption would amount to approximately 2 000 megawatt, i.e. about 23% of Escom’s total generating capacity. Such a plant would produce approximately 2 400 metric tons of enriched uranium a year, and the value of this product, at current prices, is estimated at R175 million a year, of which, according to calculations, almost R13 million will be profit. It is calculated that such a plant will have been fully paid for after 10 years and that the profit will increase accordingly. The export product of such a South African enrichment industry may be regarded as the combination of two of the raw materials with which this country is richly endowed, namely coal and uranium. In other words, South Africa will be able to supply enriched uranium at a cost approximately 30% lower than that of any other process of comparable size in the world. This in itself is phenomenal achievement on the part of our scientists in South Africa. Sir, having said this, I want to plead this afternoon—and I do so in very great earnest—for this uranium enrichment plant to be built in the Free State, on the Free State gold-fields. I believe—and I say this with due deference—that in respect of State supported industries and the decentralization of industries, the Orange Free State has not yet received its rightful share; and in pleading that this plant should be built on the Free State goldfields, I just want to remind you, Sir, of the fact that the development of that whole area is based on the goldmining industry, for which we are very grateful. We are very grateful, too, for knowing that the current gold price will mean that the gold mines in that area will be able to remain in operation for another 30 or 40 years. The fact of the matter is that the whole life of the Free State gold-fields is based on a dwindling asset, namely gold. That is why I want to plead with the hon. the Minister as a Freestater today that he should seriously consider the Free State gold-fields in connection with this matter. Sir, in respect of the production of uranium I want to point out that the Free State gold-fields produce the greatest quantity of uranium in South Africa. As far as the safety factor is concerned. I want to say that the State would probably prefer not to establish this plant in the Rand complex, since this area would be a priority target area for any enemy action. In this respect Welkom is surely much better situated. Welkom and the Free State gold-fields are very centrally situated, are easily reached from all directions and possess good road and railway connections. As far as the decentralization of industries is concerned, we know that the Government is a very strong advocate of decentralization and that it would probably prefer not to establish further industries of its own accord in one of the already over-populated and economically over-active areas. A very important aspect is the question of electricity and water, and I should like to mention that the area in which this plant should be situated will have an unlimited supply of electricity and water, for we understand that this process will require an enormous amount of electricity. In this regard Welkom is just as conveniently situated as any other area in South Africa. Our electricity is supplied by Escom and we get our water from the State water scheme, and the existing water installation could supply twice as much as the present consumption. We also have a reasonable quantity of purified sewage water. Sir, the infrastructure is already in existence, and as far as land is concerned, I may mention to you that the Welkom City Council would be prepared to make any amount of land available for such a plant. Sir, before I conclude, I want to emphasize once again that the Orange Free State has not yet received its rightful share in respect of State-supported industries. I think that the Free State has a very strong claim to the construction of this plant in that area. In the first place, as I have already mentioned, the Free State produces the greatest quantity of uranium in South Africa; the infrastructure is already there, and I therefore want to make a very urgent appeal to the Minister to give serious consideration, in the light of the facts I have mentioned here, to establishing that uranium enrichment plant, which will mean a great deal for South Africa, on the gold-fields of the Free State, and more specifically at Welkom.

Mr. Chairman, I am not going to react to the speech by the hon. member for Welkom. He made an exceptionally good plea, and I may just say that we in the Western Transvaal, of course, have a similar situation. I should like to associate myself with the plea made this morning by the hon. member for Stilfontein, concerning a working week of five days for mineworkers. The hon. member for Johannesburg North is concerned about that but I can give him the assurance that production would not suffer as a result. The people in the mining industry can work very hard.

Actually the mining industry and its framework and task in our country have little news value, although in fact, the opposite ought to be true. I should like to state that in respect of our minerals, we in our country really possess a miracle. In fact, our minerals are like the proverbial “widow’s cruse”. At the start of this century, predictions were already being made that the gold-mining industry would be worked out by as soon as 1920 or thereabouts. However, we find that this year, the mining industry is still going from strength to strength. New refining processes are being utilized, and there are new discoveries from time to time. In my opinion people are sometimes too quick to refer to our minerals as a diminishing asset. This statement is often made without real grounds. I do not believe that there can never be a correct prediction of when a specific mineral will be exhausted. I fear that this concept of diminishing assets creates a climate in which many of our young people who find themselves at the stage of having to make a choice of a career, might easily decide that this industry does not offer them a future. Sir, the “widow’s cruse” has not yet run dry, nor will it soons do so.

Today South Africa supplies about 70% of the free world’s gold. In 1947 the proceeds from minerals amounted to R251,4 million. In 1973 it amounted to R2 844,5 million and this year it will probably be far more than R3 000 million and will probably be in the region of R4 000 million. Compare this with our total budget, which amounts to about R5 000 million. It would not be too far-fetched to predict that by the end of the century, this year’s figures may still be doubled. In the department’s outstanding annual report, on which I want to congratulate the officials, the following, inter alia, is said—

Of course, this fact is bound up with the question of the increased gold price, and the fact that low-grade ore has now become economically exploitable.

The extent of the mineral industry can also be measured by the salaries paid to all employees in 1973, an amount of more than R573 million, and the value of supplies consumed by the mines in 1973, amounting to more than R797 million. What is also important, is that 90% of all supplies con sumed by the mining industry is manufactured in the Republic. The mining industry’s greatest contribution to the South African economy is therefore that during 1973 it not only supplied 3 000 million rands’ worth of minerals, but also pumped an additional amount of about R1 397 million into the economy by way of purchases of supplies and payment of salaries. I wonder whether it is really possible to determine the power of this mineral industry in our country and its economy. I wonder what the position of our country would have been if it had not been for this industry.

We in this country have been blessed with this vast wealth, and in fact our mineral industry offers us far more security and stability than the economic factor of income and employment opportunities alone. Among other things, it affords us the opportunity of bringing about proper ordering in our country. In fact, this is a matter that redounds to our credit throughout the world. I have said that this is a miracle with which we have been endowed. We shall have to make use of it in future in the most effective way. We shall have to utilize this aspect to the best of our ability. For that reason I believe that this Government will provide the mining industry and its people with all possible aid.

While I am referring to the utilization of our minerals in the future, it is clear that it is essential for the industry to be handled with exceptional care, quite apart from the fact that we should act purposefully, since we may not allow this mineral asset of ours to be exploited injudiciously. We may not tap this “widow’s cruse” at will. That is why the announcement made by the hon. the Prime Minister earlier this year was so exceptionally welcome, namely that a mineral bureau would be established in South Africa for the purpose of collecting data and making surveys with regard to reseves with a view to an effective policy in regard to the exploitation and marketing of the minerals and also their economic utilization. We should be interested to hear from the hon. the Minister whether he could perhaps tell us more in this regard.

Sir, this afternoon I should like to point out, in particular, the important and indispensable role played by the National Institute for Metallurgy, particularly in view of what I have already said in regard to the proper utilization of our mineral resources in the future. I do not believe that we can emphasize sufficiently the important task of this institute, the task of obtaining the maximum recovery of minerals from low-grade ore, a task that can only increase in importance in the future. We should bear in mind that no mineral could have been processed if it were not for metallurgy.

I read the annual report for 1973 of this institute with the greatest attention. There is one matter which strikes one immediately, and that is that there is an acute shortage of metallurgists and other staff. The tempo at which these people, and particularly our scientists, have to work at the moment, and the scope of their work, requires superhuman exertions. I think it is time an appeal was made to our young people to become qualified in this field. Not only does it offer participation in this great industry, but it also offers a particularly profitable occupation. As the saying goes, “There is good money there.” It is we, too, who should take the lead in our areas, who should encourage our people to follow this occupation, and who should see to it that the activities of the National Institute for Metallurgy are made known. It offers an ideal and exceptionally challenging job and career.

I want to refer briefly to a few aspects of the work of this Institute. For example there is the process development section. This section concerns itself with the development of chemical processes for the treatment of ore and minerals.

In the ore preparation section, improved methods of upgrading of low-grade ore are researched.

The mineral and process chemistry section undertakes the more fundamental studies of mineral processing.

This institute, and similarly entire mineral industry, in fact, urgently requires people in all sectors of the industry and I believe that we should make it our endeavour in future to propagate this industry far and wide. We are fortunate in having brilliant scientists in the industry, and in this Institute too. But, Sir, we need far more people and, in this sphere of minerals, our best people. I think that as far as this entire set-up is concerned, we shall need far greater enthusiasm in the future.

Mr. Chairman, I should like to say to the hon. member for Klerksdorp that I agree both with him and the hon. member for Stilfontein when they say that there is an abundance and a wealth of minerals and metals available to this country, and that the young people of this country should be encouraged to take up careers in this field. I mentioned during my first speech on the hon. the Minister’s Vote that the last of the key or crucial factors required to realize the potential of the mining industry of our country is the ability to attract the necessary capital. I appreciate that it is not directly within the Minister’s power to make the necessary decisions in this regard but I assume, I hope rightly, that the hon. the Minister will wish to be an advocate for the development of the mines of our country. I should therefore like to point out to the hon. the Minister aspects which undoubtedly he is aware of. The first is that the sums which will be required for both the gold and coal mines of South Africa are going to run literally into thousands of millions of rand. I exclude from that figure, which will only serve to augment it, the diamond, platinum and base metal mines. This money will have to be raised by private enterprise and I do not doubt that that sector, given a reasonable framework, will rise to this task. However, against the background of a fluctuating price for gold on the one hand and a fixed price for coal on the other, something more needs to be done if the private sector, in the first instance, and individuals and institutions, in the second instance, are to be given the necessary stimulus to invest their money. This is of course particularly true, as the hon. the Minister will be aware, when the rate of inflation is running above 13% and is till rising, where interest rates, historically at least, are at an inordinately high level, and if it is in fact possible to raise other than six months’ money outside South Africa. The hon. the Minister will know that the lead time between the decision to proceed with the mine and the date of production is much longer than that.

Both gold and coal at this particular time have a great importance for South Africa, the former as an earner of foreign exchange and the latter as a combination of a source of energy and, secondly or at least potentially, as a major foreign exchange earner. Both of them have a huge potential for expansion, which is vital, should be realized, for all the inhabitants of our country. However, they both have special problems as the hon. the Minister is no doubt aware which, unless dealt with, will tend to hold this expansion back.

I should like to deal in the first instance with coal. The base or platform of the coal mining industry’s viability in South Africa is predominantly its sales to the domestic market and to Escom. The mines have, of course, to operate under price control. Although I do not intend on this occasion to argue the case for the removal of price control, I do want to bring to the attention of the hon. the Minister the defects in the formula as it is presently applied. I hope that the hon. the Minister will take this up with his colleagues. The trouble basically at this point in time is that the formula which is applied is based on the cost of historical investments. It does not take into account the general inflation of costs which we all know has occurred in recent years nor in particular does it give adequate weight to the cost of replacement of machinery and equipment. It is, of course, pleasing that the concept of building into the formula in advance some of the anticipated future wage increases appears to have been accepted, and this constitutes a significant step forward over past practice where the price increases that were granted at best simply brought the coal mining industry back to the point from where it had started and in more cases still, not quite there.

The hon. the Minister will be aware that the selling price has to do two things. Firstly, it has to cover working costs at the mine and secondly, it has to leave over an adequate margin at a high enough level both to attract new capital and to permit sufficient retentions to replace the equipment and machinery involved at current and not historical prices. The present formula in its application appears to base itself on historical as opposed to current costs, both as regards replacement and indeed the development of new mines. If I may illustrate the point, the capital costs in the past might have been of the order of R3 or R4 per annual ton of capacity. As of now the comparable figure might be as high as R12 or R15 per annual ton of capacity. Naturally, therefore, the price structure is going to prove inadequate in time to finance the maintenance of the present supplies from the mines let alone to permit them to expand.

I should now like to return to the goldmining industry again in the context of its requirements for capital, though of course it is in direct contrast to what I have said about the coal mines in the sense that the price of its product, gold, is a function—at least in the non-monetary sense—of supply and demand. Quite apart from the fact that one can be cautiously optimistic over a period, there are going to be temporary fluctuations above and below that trendline. I think there will be general agreement that we should take every step open and available to us to expand the gold-mining industry in South Africa. It is therefore important to recognize that both the risks and the sums of money involved in essence amount to a completely new ball-game. If we are going to capitalize on this to the fullest extent possible, the Government must take this into account and show the degree of flexibility required for that purpose in laying down the rules of the game. In this connection I would like to ask the hon. the Minister to look again at the present tax and lease formula, and in one respect the capital and redemption allowances as they apply to gold mines. It is not my intention to argue for a reduction in the level of revenue which accrues to the Government, but rather to ask the hon. the Minister whether he would not put to his colleagues two modifications so that while the “take” of the Minister of Finance remains of the same order, encouragement is given to maximize the production of gold in our country. In this respect I have two suggestions in mind. Firstly, the Government should draw no distinctions between major capital expenditure programmes within or as part of existing mine lease areas and new mines as far as the concession granted by the Minister of Finance in his Budget is concerned. For example, the establishment of new shaft systems on existing mines will run into tens of millions of rand. Established gold mines whose profitability is marginal face in effect the same difficult decisions as those who decide to open new mines. And, of course, the benefits to the country will be, as the hon. the Minister knows, exactly similar. The second suggestion I would like to put forward is that the present formula should be changed in such a way as to reduce the risk to those who will bear it, while at the same time not significantly reducing revenue to the Government. The avenue I would like to suggest to the hon. the Minister is to look at a formula which is not less favourable to the 600 mines than y = 60—600/x. In practice if x you take these two steps, it will mean that the risk of adverse effects on profitability—arising either from a temporary fall in the gold price or larger than anticipated increases in costs—will be offset by an extension of the period during which the mine is exempt from such tax. The rate of taxation when the mines enter the tax-paying stage is such that the Government will not suffer materially from a revenue point of view if all goes as originally anticipated. Finally, if the price of gold is higher than anticipated, the differential between these two formulae will be narrowed.

The last suggestion I would like to make to the Minister is that there are a number of cases of mining companies who have had to terminate their operations, but on whose lease areas there are still significant quantities of ore that will become economic to mine as the price of gold rises. Here again, as the hon. the Minister will know, substantial quantities of capital will be required to recommence operations. I hope the hon. the Minister will put to his colleagues that these particular areas should enjoy the same concessions as those granted to new mines, because after all they will have to compete in the same way and on the same market for the capital required by them.

Mr. Chairman. I have no objection to the hon. member for Johannesburg North bringing as much capital as possible to South Africa. I can assure him that there is plenty of scope in South-West Africa for risk capital, especially in the field of exploration for minerals.

I would like to cover another aspect of the mining industry, namely the misconception which is a handicap to the attraction of personnel to the mining industry, something to which the hon. member for Klerksdorp also referred. I am now talking about the exhaustibility of our mineral resources, which is a very important subject of discussion in the mining industry. Human nature is prone to accept and maintain as a well-supported theory what often in reality is only conjecture or a popular cliché and once such a theory has attained a certain currency and standing, to frown upon any attempt to question its validity. One hears such predictions from the arm chair prophets as: “The mining industry is a wasting asset and the end is in sight”. This story is spread with great conviction. I would like to take issue with this view which is today handicapping the mining industry as far as the employment of personnel is concerned. This view is also propagated on public platforms all over South Africa today and many amateurs think they can speak with authority on the subject.

There is well-sustained evidence all over the world that mineral occurrences in a mining district have probably been worked intermittently for many hundreds of years. Prior to the arrival of the Europeans in Southern Africa Bantu tribes had mined and extracted copper ever since their migration to the same mining districts where the Europeans are today producing copper to their heart’s desire. A cross-continent review of mining areas provides living proof that mining districts are like old soldiers; they never die. It is true that with the passage of time mining in these districts has experienced periods of dormancy, but this is entirely due to the impact of political and economic conditions and—this point I should like to stress—not to absolute depletion of the ore bodies. What the political and economic conditions were prior to the advent of the Europeans in South Africa is well-known history. Of one thing we can be certain, and that is that there is no evidence that an insufficient mineral supply limited economic progress in those prehistoric days and in the relevant past. The mere existence of copper, zinc, lead, arsenic, germanium, cadmium and a host of other combined minerals, is not of itself an assurance of their development and utilization. What we see in South Africa today as sources of exploitation and wealth were not such to the early inhabitants, for that matter neither to our ancestors, and the same may be true of us. For anything to become a source of wealth, man has to attain a culture to utilize it. There is no recorded history of mankind running completely out of supplies of one or the other mineral. This is entirely due to the fact that man’s sophistication and culture has power apace with his capacity for basic research, resulting in the growth of his resources. Hence, it follows that there is no shortage of minerals in the world today and considering the remarkable technological advance made over the last decade in terms of widening the supply base of our industrialized society, there is no sign of a shortage in the distant future. Very often shortages are reported which are either due to political conflict or revolt or to an acceleration in demand as a result of the population explosion. The supply is then temporarily unable to cope with the demand.

That the total amount of each and every mineral unequally distributed in the earth’s crust is a given stock, subject to decrease as the result of continual use, is a well-known fact. High grade ores are just about depleted and the world is nowadays resorting to the lower grades. When all this has been consumed a highly developed world will continue to prosper using raw materials obtained by pulverizing ordinary rock which will yield—with the economic measures of the remote future permitting—all the elements provided by the minerals occurring in economic quantities today, and if we consider this as even a remote possibility it is clear that the limits to mineral supply are the earth itself.

If ever there will be an end to this mineral supply it will be the end of life on this earth because it would not be possible to supply agriculture with the chemical fertilizers derived from phosphate and potassium bearing rocks so essential for food production. Apart from this, mechanization in agriculture demands more implements for farming, and this again depends on the mining and mineral industry for its raw materials. It is, however, paradoxical that as more minerals are used more seem to be available for further use. In his study of the geochemistry of the earth an expert from Helsinki has estimated that in an cubic mile of homogeneous rock we could find a billion tons of aluminium, 625 million tons of iron, 260 million tons of magnesium and over 12 million tons of manganese. These are all considered as abundant metals. Of the scarcer elements, there will be 1 million tons of zinc, 650 000 tons of copper, 185 000 tons of lead and some 60 tons of gold, plus the other scarcer elements in lesser quantities. However, a chain of geological processes has caused the earth to be a heterogeneous mass rather than a homogeneous mass. This has resulted in mineral concentrations of varying quality, quantity and grade at fixed locations. The profitable working of these deposits is from time to time subjected to political and economic conditions and to social factors in the environment of operation. This means that the minerals can be depleted using an economic criterion applicable at the time not only to the environment of the mineral deposit, but also further afield where there must be a demand and a technological culture which can be directed to meet this need.

This thesis can be illustrated in a practical way by applying it to some of the mineral occurrences in South-West Africa which are not worked, but which carry vast reserves. A typical example is the extensive low-grade 43% iron-ore deposits of the Kaokoveld which, if politics permit, could be worked but which could not be worked to date in competition with other occurrences. As far as the operation of such a deposit is concerned, it depends entirely on what is happening elsewhere in Southern Africa or in the world. It certainly cannot compete if the ore is exported without beneficiation. Considering the large high grade reserves of iron (67%) of Iscor’s Sishen deposit next door to South-West Africa and deposits elsewhere and considering, further, the absence of subsidized transport in the Kaokoveld, it will be just about impossible to operate on this deposit. The same applies to other occurrences in the hinterland of South-West Africa. I know of the world’s biggest deposits of a specific mineral, a deposit that has been developed, but apparently for reasons of conservation no production is taking place. For the purpose of national survival in times of emergency it is customary to resort to stock-piling. Conservation as a temporary measure is essential, but the very long period of dormancy especially at a time when world prices are at a high economic level, leads me to say that it would appear wrong not to let the people of South Africa have the benefit of the utility value of the deposit. The fact that the raw material of the deposit is not made available for local or foreign consumption is no security to South Africa because we are out of line with the natural counterbalance of the international mineral yields and a substitute can diminish the value of the deposit to that of ordinary waste rock. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, it was a pleasure to listen to the interesting data supplied to the House by the hon. member for Etosha and we want to thank him for his positive contribution.

In my opinion there is no such thing as important and unimportant work. The small cog in the machine is just as necessary as the big cog. They are inter-dependent. However, we should also be very realistic and realize that in the times we are living in it is also true that there are some occupations or professions that catch the eye more than others. It is also true that there are many people who make very important contributions, but who perform their task in silence without being accorded the necessary recognition from day to day. Because this is true, I too should like to address a few words this afternoon, and in doing so, associate myself with what some other hon. members have said, to those who make their particular contributions on the mines. I want to concentrate on the gold-mining industry in particular.

The importance of the gold-mining industry most definitely cannot be overestimated. It is also generally and freely acknowledged that the Republic of South Africa, like any country that produces gold, possesses, through that industry, exceptional economic power. South Africa is fortunate enough to possess extensive deposits of gold. What is of particular importance, however, is that it also has labour, Black as well as White. Since the first record of the discovery of gold in 1868 by Karl Mauch at the Olifants River, and the discovery of gold in 1870 on the farm Eersteling, near Pietersburg, the Republic of South Africa has possessed an exceptional negotiating weapon. With the discovery of gold on the Witwatersrand in 1886 and the major price increases we had in 1933, when the gold price was fixed at $35 per fine ounce, this favourable position in which the Republic found itself was given a further impetus. It is interesting to note that since 1886 South Africa has contributed about 49% of the world production of gold, the highest contribution being in 1971, when we produced 78,2%.

To give some idea of the importance of the gold-mining industry, I briefly want to quote a few figures. The production of gold in South Africa in 1973 was 855 179 kg, worth R1 789 million. Compare this with the figure for 1920, when only 231 774 kg to the value of R45,6 million was mined. As far as income tax is concerned, an amount of R600 million in income from mining has been budgeted for, which represents 11,39% of the State’s total revenue. This represents an increase of 174% over the revenue of 1973-’74.

But in respect of provision of employment, too, the mining industry makes an exceptional contribution. In 1973 there were 430 463 people employed by the mining industry. The assets we have in the form of gold, however, would mean nothing if there were not also dedicated human material to exploit that wealth. These people work under difficult conditions, as we have been told by other speakers this afternoon; particularly as far as physical exertion is concerned. What is more, they are subject to an exceptional risk of accident. It is a fact that they are well paid for their services. We have already heard from the hon. member for Klerksdorp that in 1973 they received more than R3 million in wages and salaries. They make a further contribution, too, through the income tax they pay to the State.

I have great respect for the mineworker who, after the activities of such a physically exhausting day, is still prepared to do his bit for his church and his people. I really think that the criticism these workers often have to endure when it is maintained that they make no further contribution to the community, is undeserved. I want to argue this afternoon that to make a cultural contribution, one must be creative. In that sense that greatest cultural contribution anyone can make, is to make an exceptional contribution by labouring successfully and with dedication in his specific job or occupation. In that sense, these mineworkers, who exploit the wealth of our country, are engaged in a great cultural task. I found it interesting, too, when the hon. member for Stilfontein pleaded for a five-day working week, to hear that the mineworker is not asking for a five-day working week in order to produce less or work less. The mineworker recognizes his task and his responsibility and in this way he too makes his contribution to the country. It is with great appreciation and respect that in the area where I come from, Welkom, I remark the fact from day to day that these people attached to the mine and who make their contribution from day to day under difficult conditions, as I have said, are also prepared to play their part in the community, in local management, in cultural organizations, in the church, in the field of sport administration and in various other sectors.

These people are making a major contribution. However, I fear that they are not always given credit or respected for the important work they perform. They deserve the best possible working conditions. They deserve the best possible conditions of service. They deserve the thanks and the acknowledgment of the people for work that is often performed in silence under difficult conditions without their demanding any credit for themselves. I should very much like to convey my thanks to the hon. the Minister for his sympathetic approach and for the understanding with which he deals with the problem of the mineworker. I also want to request that scientific investigations to improve the working conditions of these people and to protect the interests of the mineworker, be continued.

In conclusion, I should very much like to associate myself with what was said by the hon. members for Stilfontein and Klerksdorp and ask that we should encourage those who display real interest in the mining industry, to seek their occupation there. However, I want to sound an immediate warning. One can only make one’s greatest contribution to one’s country and people if one does have the necessary interest; only then will one work with full dedication and produce to the utmost of one’s ability. It will therefore be pointless for us to encourage people to enter the mining industry merely for financial gain. We want to encourage people to go there because they do in fact take an interest in it. This does not only apply to people who perform mining work, but also to those with more academic knowledge, whether in the metallurgical section, the chemical section, the physical section or the research section. I am aware that they are in fact provided with the necessary extension in regard to employment possibilities. I do think, however, that it is necessary for our students, too, those of them who are still seeking a field of occupation, to give more attention to these specific opportunities in the mining industry that are offered to them. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, until the hon. member for Etosha spoke in this debate, we had to listen to a dreary series of speeches from hon. members opposite in which the Government was praised and the hon. Minister was thanked and in which lectures on various subjects were delivered. However, when the hon. member for Etosha spoke, he introduced an entirely new concept into the science and technology of mining in so far as the world’s natural resources are concerned. In fact, if the thesis which the hon. member for Etosha treated us to in this Chamber were to be accepted by the Government without further examination, I think that we would be in dreadful trouble. If that thesis were to form the basis of world thinking, the world would be in dreadful trouble as well. If I heard the thesis of the hon. member for Etosha correctly, he stated in fact that neither now nor in the future would the world face a shortage of minerals because if one takes the world and breaks it down into its constituent elements one will have an unlimited supply of the various elements of which the world is composed. That, in fact, is something which gives us cause for alarm. Many economists and many scientists are arguing along those lines in our scientific age today in which the facts must be faced by the nations of the world. I recollect that it was a president of the Orange Free State who once said: “Alles sal regkom as elkeen sy plig doen”. The hon. member for Etosha, who also bears the name of Brand, has come forward here with another statement which reads more or less: “Moenie worry nie, alles sal regkom.”

Let us just discuss a few of the concepts which the hon. member mentioned. The scientist who can see the full ramifications of this problem with regard to the exploration for and the exploitation and conservation of the world’s mineral resources, has come to the conclusion that there is hardly a resource which will not be exhausted within the next 500 years. This is taking the matter on a global basis in terms of the increasing population in the world. It is projected that within the next 80 years the world population is likely to reach a figure of 15,5 billion people. In terms of the mineral resources, in terms of the metal and the minerals which can be exploited in terms not only of known technology but of predicted technological development, there is only a small percentage that will be able to be exploited, and that will be exhausted in a few hundred years. Some of these resources will in fact be exhausted within the next 50 to 100 years. It is therefore absolutely essential that the Governments of the world should labour under no misapprehensions. We must not create a false faith which is not based on substance and we must have the courage to face the facts of the situation and start planning in terms of those facts. If we look through reports both on a national and international basis, it would appear that there is ad hoc thinking in terms of exploration, there is ad hoc planning in terms of the development of deposits and there is ad hoc development as such. In fact the entire mineral industry and science in South Africa has been placed on an ad hoc basis which cannot give rise to an integrated and concerted effort in this field.

Technology cannot cope with the expectations of man. The expectations of economists and of the world as a whole in the technological sphere are frightening. They seem to suggest that technology can solve problems of mankind which have been created by mankind itself, that technology can replace the exhausted resources and that technology can create resources which do not exist. One of the things which hardly any of the people who have studied this matter to date have taken into consideration is the exponential function of the exhaustion of resources, the fact that it is an ever-escalating rate of exhaustion. Let me mention an example. In the year 1975 only 12,5% of the world’s known oil resources will have been exhausted, but by the turn of the century virtually all of the world’s oil resources will have been exhausted. In considering this matter, one must not accept a steady rate of exhaustion as such; one has to consider the exponential function which in fact will give the true position. It is important, I believe, that a master plan must be worked out for South Africa, as should be the case in every other country of the world, to establish exactly the policies to be applied in exploration, where the funds will be found and how the programme is to be carried out. The master plan must detail in full the schedule by which the country is going to exploit its resources. It must lay down the guide-lines for the development and the exploitation of all its resources and it must take into consideration the exponential rate of exhaustion of every one of the fundamentally important resources of the country, because it is only when you plan in terms of the facts, when you see the future as it will be and not through rose-tinted spectacles as you would like it to be, that you can avoid the catastrophe of suddenly finding that you have run out of a resource which is vital to your existence, which is vital to all aspects of your economy and which is vital to your security. Therefore South Africa should have a master plan, and if the Minister does one job in the next few years, then that job must be the establishment of such a master plan. South Africa cannot do without it. Sir, one of the last points that I want to mention is this: Up to now it has been possible to study your national resources almost in isolation from the resources of the rest of the world, but that is because the world has in fact had vast resources up to this date and the point where the depletion was becoming effective in depriving countries of resources had not yet been felt to the fullest extent, but in the future every national natural resource must be seen not in terms of its life exponential or otherwise within your own country, but must be seen in the light of the extent to which it contributes to that resource on an international level because, Mr. Chairman, when the world runs out of a natural resource, when the world runs out of coal, for instance, South Africa will not be able to be complacent and secure in the knowledge that it has coal for 500 or 1 000 years. When the world runs out of coal, South Africa’s coal supplies will become the supplies of the world, either because we volunteer it or because the world will annex that resource. Sir, your natural resources, in terms of a world which is going to be hungry and desperate for resources, are not your resources for your requirements exclusively; the become the resources of the world as a whole, and when you think about it and talk about it and plan in terms of it, you must do so in terms of the requirements of the world. I therefore make this urgent appeal to the Minister: Let South Africa set about studying its natural resources, its mineral resources, planning for every aspect of its exploitation, planning for its conservation and planning for the day when those resources become exhausted either on a national level or when they become exhausted on an international level, so that we will have plans for that time irrespective of how frightening the prospect may appear once it appears in writing at this stage. I know the Minister has said that some of these things cannot be disclosed in public because it would affect confidence, and I agree with him, there is something in that argument. But, Mr. Chairman, we must know exactly what the situation is and we must know exactly where we are going, because if we do not, we are going to be dealing with a catastrophe within the next few decades and not with a problem which is under control. [Time expired.]

The hon. member for Bryanston had a great deal to say on an ad hoc basis about the mining industry in South Africa.

†I should like to tell the hon. member that he belongs to a party that works on an ad hoc basis and a party which has an ad hoc mentality. But I think it is not only a reflection on this Government and this side of the House when he talks about mineral development in South Africa on an ad hoc basis; it is a reflection also on the mining industry in South Africa. I should like to remind this hon. member, who is a new member in this House and who has already stuck his neck out quite a few times, that I am afraid a lot will still happen to him in this House due to his antagonistic attitude.

But what did this Government do? Take the low-grade gold mines. Those mines were not worked on an ad hoc basis. This Government subsidized the low-grade gold mines and we saw to it that we kept the low-grade gold mines running. When that side of the House said that this story about gold price increases were absolutely ridiculous and would not occur, it was this Government which had the confidence in gold. Sir, another aspect is that had we not subsidized the low-grade gold mines, due to water problems we could never ever have been able to mine the gold in those low-grade mines in the future. [Interjection.] Sir, I should be very pleased if that young man confines himself to things he knows a little about and not talk about things he knows absolutely nothing about.

*Take uranium enrichment. What an achievement for South Africa! It was an amazing achievement, and then the hon. member for Bryanston refers to an ad hoc set-up in South Africa! No, mining and the mining industry in South Africa have played an exceptional role in the past and it is my honest opinion that it will be the mining industry which will play an exceptional role in the future as well, in the economic future of the Republic of South Africa. The industrial development which will take place, secondary and tertiary, will basically be established according to the success of our mining industry. When saying this, I have in mind that which is being projected for the year 2000, for example that mineral consumption throughout the world will be double what it is today. Platinum, gold, nickel and coal will be 3,5 times more than it is today. The consumption of uranium will be 27 times more than it is today. This is a challenge for the future. This is an enormous challenge for the future that we shall make available the means to obtain the capital and take the initiative not only as far as mining is concerned, but also as far as the enrichment and refining of these minerals are concerned. Now, Sir, I say with great pride that my constituency is situated in the heart of the Bushveld complex, and I mention with particular pride that it has been scientifically proved that the mineral wealth in the Bushveld complex which when fully exploited and enriched, will be more than what has been produced and will be produced by the Witwatersrand complex in the years that lie ahead. Some years ago I said in this House that I foresaw that this would happen. People laughed at me, but today it is something real. I had the privilege to attend the opening of the 16th mill at one of the mines in Rustenburg last Saturday. It was an interesting experience. The chairman, Mr. Craig of the Impala Mine, a mine which started operations in 1968, on Saturday officiated at the official opening of the 16th mill of this mine, a mine which has therefore mushroomed with thousands of workers in its service. Services were rendered by the State, services such as water, electricity and so on. The co-operation between the mining sector and the State was something worth seeing. For the information of the hon. member for Bryanston, Mr. Craig said the following—

He went further and said—

And Anglo-American.

That hon. member displays a lack of knowledge. Anglo-American has no interest in Impala. That hon. member comes from Natal and knows more about bananas than about anything else. That is his trouble. He went further and said—

*This is something which causes one to feel very proud when one sees that a mine which started operations in 1968 on the slopes of the Magaliesberg on the plains of the Bushveld is today making an enormous contribution to the foreign exchange earnings of the Republic of South Africa. We also have a second mine there, the largest platinum mine in the world. This year the net income from the production of the Rustenburg platinum mine was more than R72 million. When driving from Rustenburg to Thabazimbi at night one only sees a mass of lights, the lights of this developing complex. A second Witwatersrand is on its way.

Where I referred to major achievements at managerial level, and of the workers, I want to make it quite clear that it would have been impossible practically to allow this enormous development to take place within the space of a year had there been no people who were devoted to their work, be it at managerial level or at the level of the workers. I should like to pay tribute to them because they are rendering a service to South Africa.

In the years that lie ahead, the challenges will become even greater. The mining industry will form the crux of the developing economy of South Africa. Economic preparedness is essential in a world of international economic problems, lack of confidence and lack of liquidity of funds. The mining industry will form the basis of our strength in the years that lie ahead. It will be the mining industry that will be of vital importance to us.

What is necessary is for an advertising campaign to be launched to bring home to our young people that the mining industry is an exceptional industry and that there are opportunities for the future in this industry. This is not a dwindling industry, but a vigorous industry. There are various spheres and opportunities for young people to be able to make a contribution such as, for example, mining engineers, geologists and metallurgists. I think more attention should be given to our young people at university level in order to get their priorities right. It is not necessary for a young person to attend university and take a course there while he does not know what he is going to do after he has obtained his degree. A degree is not the alpha and the omega. A degree is not a status symbol; it is man who has status within himself. We should make it our task to bring it home to our young people that they have a task to fulfil. The mining industry offers directions and challenges and it has an enormous future. If the young person enters the mining industry, he will have the opportunity of making a contribution to the development of this wonderful country, the Republic of South Africa. The mining industry will prove that the future of this Republic is now entrenched in the success of a wonderful and proud industry, i.e. the mining industry.

Mr. Chairman, I am told that when a schoolgirl in the Rustenburg District was asked who the Leader of the Opposition was, she replied: “Sir Paul Bodenstein.” I must say that I am very thankful that he is not the Leader of the Opposition although I am sure that hon. members opposite would be very pleased if he were.

It would be a different Opposition if I were there. [Interjections.]

If we look at the report of the department, we see that in the year 1972-’73 there was an in-crease in the total number of workers in the mining industry from 630 000 to 677 000. However, these statistics are not entirely in accord with the figures provided by the Chamber of Mines nor with those contained in this expensive booklet it costs R4-50—that has been sent to us. The principle, however, is what is basically important.

The Progressives have supplied the wrong figures.

The important point is that in the year 1972-’73 there was an increase in the Bantu labour force of about 40 000 people. We can expect this figure to increase. We have heard what has happened in Rustenburg and about the possibility of more gold mines. In the department’s report we also read the following in the paragraph headed: “Mining district at Springbok”—

We have an enormous problem in this country. Our population is going to increase enormously over the next 25 years. Over this period we shall see our Black population increase from 16 million to 40 million. In The Daily News of November 1973 we read that the Bantu Investment Corporation spent R26 million to create 10 000 employment opportunities for Blacks. The mining industry, however, with no expense to the taxpayer, provides 40 000 employment opportunities. It is possible that we are going to lose our foreign contract labourers. I read in Die Burger this morning about what is going on in Malawi and there is a strong possibility that we shall no longer be able to recruit at least 50% of the 600 000 people working on our mines, for work in the Republic.

I want to bring to the attention of the Minister the fact that if his department is prepared to change this migrant labour system and allow it to develop in such a way on the mines that these thousands of employment opportunities will be available for South African Black people in the future, as a result of the problems in our neighbouring States, and if these 300 000 or 400 000 Black mineworkers are also allowed to bring their families to the mines to live there, it will to a large extent be possible for us to solve both the immense population problem in our homelands and the fantastic population increase we are experiencing in this country. In this way we should do much to solve, to a large extent, the problems we are going to experience in the future. Migrant labour could then gradually be done away with to enable these people to urbanize and to live there.

Our mines have probably the best system of training and education of workers. If the mines can use this system to train our own South African Blacks who are going to live here and stay here with us on a permanent basis, we should be doing a very good thing. I think the Minister should think along these lines in the future.

Mr. Chairman, it is probably as well that the hon. young member who has just spoken does not have much background knowledge of the labour situation in this country. If what he has just said were to be implemented, his whole party, the Anglo-American corporation, the mines and all of us, would not be here for much longer. I can give the hon. member that assurance.

I should like to come back to the opening words of the hon. member for Von Brandis. He referred to the hon. member for Rosettenville and I should like to associate myself with what he said by saying that I am please that the hon. member for Rosettenville did not take part in this debate. I think that it is a good thing that when one retires as one of the chief spokesmen in a certain debate, one hears what others have to say about one in one’s presence. After all, one brings flowers while it is still possible for one to do so. I want to give the hon. member the assurance that as far as this side of the House and myself are concerned, we appreciate the attitude of the hon. member for Rosettenville and the share he has had in the Department of Mines and in debates here, particularly since we have heard so much today about capital formation and about all the other aspects of the mining industry. The hon. member for Rosettenville distinguished himself by his concern for the welfare and the health of the mineworkers. For that reason I should like to amplify what he said. Since I now have a turn to speak and the hon. member will not have another turn to speak in this debate, I should like to discuss that aspect further and amplify what he said.

The hon. member for Stilfontein referred to the fact that the Occupational Diseases in Mines and Works Act has only been in operation for a few months. We appreciate this legislation. If one follows carefully the course of the mining industry and the development of the country, one can clearly discern the phases of development. Then, too, I just want to repeat that in the old days we spoke about “phthisis”, then about silicosis, later about pneumoconiosis and still later about mine diseases and mine conditions. Conditions have developed to such an extent that we no longer talk about mine diseases, but about diseases in mines and works, because works have been brought into the whole picture. A works is described in the Act as any place in which the treating, working or refining of mineral products is undertaken.

However, I have another problem. When we talk about the state of health, the physical and even the mental state of the worker, we cannot stop at the mining industry or at the private sector or at industry. Whenever we are dealing with occupational diseases, this remains a problem. Since a works is now defined according to law, we know that as far as diseases are concerned, one cannot draw a distinction. When compensation is paid, we have to determine when a worker is entitled to a certain amount. Disease has no limits as far as suffering is concerned nor has it any limits as far as place is concerned. I want to suggest to the hon. the Minister that we in the department—which is a leader in the field of investigation into diseased conditions and which has the finest machinery to cope with them—should also investigate the diseased conditions in industry and that the investigations into diseased conditions in the mining industry and those in industry should be combined in one joint complex.

At present we are saddled with the problem that the man working in a factory is covered by the Workmen’s Compensation Act. Today that man is working in a factory, but in a few years’ time he could perhaps go and work on the mines. On the mines he is covered under the Act providing for diseases in the mining industry. Then that man could perhaps go elsewhere and work for a private body where he does not enjoy cover. However, a disease contracted at one of these places accompanies him everywhere. If he were to go and work on the mines for a second time, it could be that the disease only manifests itself then.

Now I want to know who would pay for that and who would be responsible for that. We had a very good example when we visited the constituency of the hon. member for Prieska. We have an asbestos mine there where the employees enjoy full cover. The asbestos fibre is taken from the asbestos mine to a factory where it is processed and packed. Asbestos is then taken into the harbours or factories in a specific way. This is yet another facet of the working of asbestos. From the factories and the industries the asbestos is sent to the wholesaler, and from there to the consumer, who constitutes the following facet. After the consumer we get the subsequent facet, namely where asbestos is used as a waste material. This is where my problem lies and I hope that the hon. the Minister will also see the matter in this light. The person who works with asbestos is going to contract his disease somewhere along the line where asbestos is processed. Where, then, are we to draw the line? My plea is that the department, together with the Department of Health the industries and the factories, should treat the welfare of all workers alike and determine compensation jointly.

In the future we are going to experience similar problems at nuclear installations. I was gratified to read in the fine report of the Atomic Energy Board about the safety measures they have already effected far in advance. In this House, too, we have had legislation in regard to nuclear installations and visits by nuclear-propelled ships. I could just mention the measures effected for the future. Clearly, nuclear power is a reality that is standing on our threshold, and it is going to develop still further shortly. What are the criteria for safety which the Atomic Energy Board has already introduced? Firstly there is the risk factor. Then there are criteria in respect of the normal accidental emission of radioactive material. Then there are criteria in regard to whether conditions and the combating of pollutant matter on the basis of temperature, wind speed, etc. These criteria have already been established. Then too, there is of course the study of emergency procedures in the event of anything major occurring. An important facet is that they are already making a study of the calculation of costs and of the liability that is involved when people suffer from radioactive diseases.

Where diseases are concerned, in my last half minute I should like to pay tribute to the predecessor of the hon. member for Virginia. The hon. member for Rosettenville will support me when I express my appreciation of the part played by Mr. Boet van Wyk in regard to occupational diseases on the mines. Actually, he was so scrupulous in this regard that we often addressed him as “Boet van Scleroderma”. Through the years he drew attention to the diseased conditions that occur among mineworkers. I hope that these diseased conditions will now enjoy full recognition so that we can tell “oom Boet” that his work was not in vain.

Mr. Chairman, in the few minutes I have at my disposal I want to thank both the hon. member for Von Brandis and the hon. member for Brentwood for the kind words they have expressed on my behalf. That I am no longer the main speaker on this side of the House on the subject of Mines, does not mean to say that I have lost interest in the mineworker. On the contrary, in the years I will still be in this House, I will continue to do my very best on their behalf.

To prove that, I want to draw the hon. the Minister’s attention to Chapter 4 of the report of the Department of Mines, which makes for very sad reading indeed. These are the paragraphs that deal with accidents. The seriousness of the position cannot be emphasized strongly enough. When one reads of the frightening types of accidents that occur on the mines, one sees that whatever has been done in the past to provide for the safety of the mine-worker has not been enough. I want to say now that we must spare no money or effort in research into further safety measures for those people who are working underground. The kind of accident which is described here is really frightening, as I have said. We read of fires, rock-bursts, explosions, mudrushes, overwinds, fall of hangings and so on. What does it all add up to? It adds up to a man going underground and risking his life every day. This is no exaggeration, because every day of the week two miners die. When we look at the figures we find that 737 people died underground last year, and no fewer than 29 144 were seriously injured. We talk about risk work underground. Risk work is that type of work which a person undertakes when he works in a dusty atmosphere. But that is no comparison with the risk the miner takes every day when he faces either violent death or severe injury.

I want to say to the Minister that if he wants better recruiting, he will have to look for ways and means to overcome these fatalities and accidents. It is a terrific job that is facing us, and I do not know what measures can be taken; but there must be some way of working out a method of detecting when a rockburst or mudrush is going to take place. These are the things we have to look for. Those people who are interested in mines must put their heads together and find ways and means of solving these problems. Research is taking place, I agree, but what is the end result? There has been no significant change in accident and death rates compared with the previous year, and the accident pattern has remained much the same, notwithstanding the intensified accident prevention and research work carried out by the Chamber of Mines, individual mine managements and the Division of Mines. What is the end going to be? Are we going to continue to lose those valuable lives, the lives of young people and middle-aged people who are suffering underground day after day and risking their lives? Something must be done. It is a pity that time does not allow me to elaborate on this question, but let me leave it at that, and just say to the Minister that the warning is there. If you want people to work underground, take away the risks if you possibly can.

Mr. Chairman, I should like to thank the House very sincerely for the excellent discussion of this Vote which we have had this afternoon. It was a very positive discussion, which was in fact a testimonial to the entire position of the mining industry in the Republic of South Africa. It is as if we had reached the end of an old and the beginning of a new dispensation in mining. Proof of this fact is that we have a new chairman of the mining group on the National Party side, the hon. member for Stilfontein. I want to congratulate him very sincerely on that, and also on his excellent contribution here in this House this afternoon. I also want to convey thanks and appreciation to Mr. Boet van Wyk, his predecessor, whom we recall with fondness and much appreciation. Further proof of the fact is that there is a new chairman of the mining group on the Opposition side, viz. the hon. member for Von Brandis, who made a brilliant contribution here this afternoon. I want to congratulate him on it, and wish him everything of the best for the future. Our good old friend, the hon. member for Rosettenville, who was the chairman of the mining group on that side for 17 years, made a typically fine contribution again this afternoon in the interests of the miner. We will always recall with great appreciation the fine contributions he made in this House. Further proof of this fact is that there is a new main speaker on the Progressive Party side, the hon. member for Johannesburg North. It is also a pleasure for me to say that the hon. member, in the two speeches which he made this afternoon, really made a positive contribution on which I congratulate him. I want to say that if the Progressive Party were to display as much wisdom in regard to all other matters as the hon. member for Johannesburg North displayed here in regard to mining, things would go well for them in politics, whereas things are going very badly for them at the moment.

You are making overtures, aren’t you?

It grieves me to have to say this, but Mr. Uys, the Secretary for Mines, retires at the end of November. We will therefore have a new Secretary for Mines as well in the very near future. It is with sorrow that I have to take my leave of Mr. Uys on this occasion. He entered the Department of Mines on 17 September 1927, more or less the year in which I was born. After almost 50 years of excellent service, and after he had consented at the special request of the Government to remain on in his difficult post for another year, he is retiring from his post at the age of 66 years at the end of November. He became Secretary to this important department on 1 August 1969. In the history of the department he is probably one of the persons with the most experience, for during his long career he served in numerous branch offices of the department, frequently under very difficult circumstances. A period of 50 years’ service in one department is a very long time indeed. He is a man of excellent characteristics and gifts. Those of us who have had the privilege of knowing him well, will remember him in particular for his great integrity, his mature and balanced judgment, his modesty and his utter dedication to his work. I said on one occasion that one day I would perhaps write a chapter on him for the Readers’ Digest under the title “The Most Unforgettable character I have met”. To me in the department he was more than just a secretary. He was to me a father, a man with so much mature experience. It is difficult to replace so many years of service in the department. Therefore we convey to him our deep and sincere thanks for his loyalty. If there ever were and still is a true gentleman, then it is undoubtedly Mr. Uys. I want to thank him cordially on my own behalf and on behalf of the Government for the many sacrifices which he and his wife, who stood by him so loyally, have made over many long years in the interests of South Africa, and I want to pray God’s richest blessings on him and express the hope that they will be able to enjoy many more days of happiness, prosperity and perfect health now that they are going to live on a small farm in Riversdale where he longs with all his heart to be.

On this occasion I also want to announce that the Cabinet has decided that Mr. Wynand P. Viljoen has been appointed Secretary for Mines in the place of Mr. Uys who is retiring. Mr. Wynand Viljoen is 55 years of age. He is in possession of a B.A. degree. He has been working in the department since his appointment to the Public Service on 15 June 1936, and was promoted to Deputy Secretary in 1969. He has been attached to the Head Office of the Department of Mines since 1944, a period of 30 years. He is therefore a man of very mature experience and already has a brilliant departmental career behind him. We congratulate him sincerely on this appointment. We have confidence in him and we have no doubt at all that he will serve the House and the department to very good effect in the years which lie ahead. He, too, is a very modest man, a quiet man, but a man on whom one can rely under all circumstances.

The Department of Mines is not only the oldest department in South Africa and in our national economy; it is also one of the finest. To my way of thinking it is perhaps the finest department, and definitely the wealthiest. If one thinks of the Department of Mines and all its operational ramifications, one thinks in the first place of our miners. They are people who are my friends. The miners and their families are people towards whom I am extremely sympathetically inclined. They are people who earn their living in the bowels of the earth, and at the same time they are making an extremely important contribution, and not always under the easiest of circumstances. For the most part they do so under the most difficult of circumstances in the interests of South Africa and South Africa’s prosperity, although their health is affected in the process. To these people I say: “The Government, I myself and the Department of Mines are your friends, as we have proved in the past, and we shall in future as well try to facilitate the task you are performing in the mining industry as much as possible, to make the working conditions as favourable as possible, and to assist where we can in making the salary scales and pensions and other conditions of service as attractive as is practicable.”

Sir, if one thinks further of the Department of Mines, one thinks immediately of our mineral wealth, which was described here today as a miracle. Sir, if one considers the potential of South Africa’s minerals in future, in the next 20 to 30 years, then it is really an exciting prospect. There are few things which offer such exciting prospects at this moment in South Africa as our mineral wealth in fact does. Sir, it struck me that running through this debate this afternoon like a golden thread was the idea that minerals should not be regarded as a dwindling asset, and that mining offers a brilliant life-task. All that must happen is that our young people should come forward to avail themselves of these opportunities which mining offers them. I want to associate myself at once with other hon. members who made this appeal to our young people. We have a very great shortage of metallurgists, mining engineers, geologists, chemical engineers, and marketing men in the mining industry in South Africa, and it is a pity and surprising that our young people are not availing themselves of these opportunities in this exciting industry in far greater numbers. Sir, let us glance for just a moment at the figures: In 1947 our income from mining was R251 million; in 1973 it was R2 844 million; in 1974 it will pass the R4 000 million mark. Although I do not want to set myself up as a prophet, I can state here today that, based on the data at our disposal, one could hold out the prospect of the income from mining most probably exceeding the R7 000 million mark by the year 2000. Therefore, we are undoubtedly dealing here with a colossus in the South African national economy. If one considers that our total Budget in the past year was in the region of R5 000 million, and that the income from mining in 1974 will exceed R4 000 million, one realizes how important this industry is to South Africa and what opportunities it offers our young people in South Africa.

But, Sir, that is not the end of the exciting prospects of mining in South Africa and everything which goes with it, for one of the most important aspects of mining in South Africa is uranium and uranium enrichment. I want to point out that the importance of the Government’s investment in the South African uranium enrichment process will only really manifest itself when the value of enriched uranium is illustrated in practice. Until recently the prevailing world price of uranium concentrate was in the region of R9-40 per kg or $6 per pound. Since then the price of uranium has soared, and at present it is difficult to speak of a stabilized price, except that one can say that it is considerably more than R9-40 per kg. At a price of R9-40 per kg the value of South Africa’s uranium reserves of 300 000 tons is approximately R2 600 million. Hon. members must bear in mind that I am calculating this at the lowest possible price. In reality the price is far higher. If only half of these reserves are enriched to 3%, the value of the conversion of uranium to UF6 and of the enrichment of uranium as such, apart from the value of the remaining 150 000 tons of uranium concentrate, still amounts to approximately R2 600 million at the lower prices. In aggregate therefore this amounts to at least R5 200 million. Therefore, as an earner of foreign exchange, enriched uranium will quite undoubtedly play an extremely decisive and important role in the history of South Africa. It was not for nothing that I said on a previous occasion that in comparison with what the discovery of diamonds meant for South Africa over a period of 100 years, seen in its widest implications, it may be stated as a true fact that uranium and uranium enrichment will be of far greater significance for South Africa in the years to come than even diamonds, and all the benefits which these brought to South Africa over 100 years, were. In addition, we have a unique enrichment process in South Africa. I do not have the time now to recount this, but it is a fine story which I can recount, of how sons of South Africa, with their extraordinary intellectual ability, made an absolutely wonderful discovery here, viz. how to enrich uranium. With this process which we have at our disposal, and in view of the expansion of nuclear programmes throughout the entire world in order to meet the present critical need for alternative sources of energy, the Government has for some considerable time been required to ensure the attainment of this object, viz. the local manufacture of enriched uranium on a large scale and within the briefest possible space of time. In this regard South Africa, as the possessor of vast reserves of the necessary raw materials, is adopting the course leading to large-scale uranium enrichment with the greatest confidence.

It is with very great pleasure, Sir, that I announce on this occasion that the progress being made with the pilot plant for the enrichment of uranium at Valindaba has been such that the stage was reached a few days ago at which a start could be made with the putting into operation of the first section. This is of very, very great significance to South Africa, and also far beyond South Africa. The putting into operation of an enrichment plant is a comprehensive task which takes up a considerable period of preparation. Such a plant consists of a number of sections of which each in their turn are composed of quite a number of stages. During the putting into operation period each stage has to be subjected to a series of tests, and as the tests are completed, the relevant sections of the enrichment plant come into operation stage by stage. The putting into operation of all the relevant stages in the relevant section of the enrichment plant ought to be disposed of in a matter of weeks. With the putting into operation of each stage, valuable scientific, technological and operational knowledge is of course obtained, and operational experience acquired. In view of the fact that the hydro-process is an original and an entirely new enrichment process in the world, this knowledge and experience is of the utmost importance. The pilot plant is therefore already beginning to perform one of the functions for which it was constructed, viz. the provision of the knowledge and the experience necessary to design and operate a large-scale commercial plant. In the meantime the construction of the remaining sections of the pilot plant is being proceeded with systematically. It is expected that the mechanical construction work of the remaining sections will have been completed by the mid 1975. Similarly, they will be put into operation by stages, and there is no doubt that the experience gained with the putting into operation of this first section which I have just announced, will lead to a constantly accelerating commencement rate as far as the remaining sections are concerned.

That an important section of the pilot plant at Valindaba is at present being put into operation, means that the construction of that section, with all the technical auxiliary services which will be necessary during the operation of that plant has for the most part been completed and disposed of now. In turn, this means that the Uranium Enrichment Corporation, Ukor, in collaboration with its principal contractor, its subcontractors, its consultants and a large number of manufacturing industries in the country, was able to complete successfully the complicated and highly sophisticated and comprehensive task which included the following aspects: In the first place, there was the development of the highly sophisticated technology which was necessary to incorporate the new South African process of enrichment in a practical plant. In the second place there was the manufacture of the numerous mechanical, electrical and electronic components which had to comply with the highest standards and, in the third place, the construction of the numerous stages under conditions of the greatest cleanliness imaginable. The hon. members who were there at my request to see what was happening there, would agree with me that it is the cleanest place imaginable. I have never been in a cleaner place. The requirement is that the utmost cleanliness has to be ensured when one is dealing with such a highly sophisticated matter. Once the commission of that section of the plant which is at present complete has been successfully completed, it would mean that South Africa has proved to the world that it is able to construct a large-scale commercial plant independently, within the limits of South Africa’s industrial and manpower capacity. Admittedly such an enterprise will require further technological development work in order, to be able to manufacture the larger components for example, but it goes without saying that with the knowledge, the experience, and the ability which has been acquired in developing the technology for the pilot plant, this is a task which may be tackled with the utmost confidence. If it is borne in mind that of all the countries in the world only six of the biggest, i.e. the United States of America. France, England, Germany. Russia and China, have constructed enrichment plants on a large or small scale, this is undoubtedly a major and exceptional achievement and, in fact, a very important milestone which South Africa as a young and relatively small country has reached, in having been able to put this section of its pilot plant into operation just a few days ago. It has given me very great pleasure to have been able to make this announcement on this occasion.

Since I come now to the position of our other minerals in South Africa, I want to point out that the increased revenue which we are going to receive from gold in the years which lie ahead, means that we will definitely be able to stimulate the goldmining industry in South Africa in the following ways: In the first place, it is expected that an additional R150 million will be spent during the next five years on the development of new mines, the reopening of some of the mines that have closed down, and the reprospecting of areas which had previously been abandoned as completely uneconomic. The total extent of the areas which will be involved in this is expected to exceed 30 000 ha. Depending upon the extent to which these plans are carried out, these projects alone may result in the employment of an additional 1 250 Whites and between 16 000 and 20 000 Bantu. In addition to this it may be expected that established mines will proceed to investigate further areas within their mining lease land, areas which were up to now regarded as being uneconomic. According to the figures which have become available for the first quarter of this year—that is, the period from 1 January to 31 March—the value of the gold production of the Republic was approximately R375 million greater than that for the first quarter of 1973. Unless an unforeseeable change occurs during the remainder of the year, one may state with a reasonable measure of certainty at this stage already that the value of the 1974 gold production will exceed the 1973 value by approximately R1 000 million or more. This is very important to South Africa.

When we consider the position of diamonds, we see that in 1973 the value of diamonds sold by South Africa was 80% greater than in the previous year. It is expected that the rate of diamond production will be maintained at the present rate for the foreseeable future, but because sales and sale values may be influenced by various factors, the department is not able to make a realistic projection in the latter regard. However, it may in fact be mentioned that the available figures at present indicate that the value of the Republic’s diamond sales for the first quarter of 1974 was approximately R5 million greater than in the first quarter of 1973, which was a record year for diamonds in South Africa. We then had a revenue of R162 million from diamonds.

When we consider other minerals, we see that copper stole the limelight with an increase of R25.5 million in respect of exports, which brought the total 1973 export sales up to R 107,3 million. There were considerable fluctuations in the price of copper during the first half of 1974, but the provisional figures indicate that the value of the Republic’s copper sales during the first five months of 1974 was approximately R40 million greater than in the first five months of 1973. When we consider coal, we see that in this sector, viz. the non-metalliferous minerals, coal made the greatest contribution to the increase. Local sales rose by R19.4 million and exports by R5.9 million. The total value of coal exported in 1973 was R13,9 million, while local sales amounted in aggregate to R138,2 million. I think it is important to mention that the local demand for coal is expected to increase substantially as a result of the energy crisis which is being experienced, while exports during the next few years ought to be greater than has been the case for many years. Although I have singled out only these few minerals from a total of 65, and since prospects are as favourable in regard to the one as they are to the other, we can state with the utmost certainty that the expectations in respect of our mineral industry for 1974, and for a long period thereafter are extremely exciting. It is not impossible that we may by the year 2000 be earning a revenue in excess of R7 000 million from our minerals. From the nature of the case, since one is dealing with such an exciting colossus in the South African economy, the Government, the Department of Mines and I will do everything in our power to provide the necessary support and every possible assistance in this regard.

I should now like to reply to a few of the questions which were put to me. The hon. member for Von Brandis, who, as I have already said, made a very fine contribution, put a question to me which I think necessitates a reply on my part. In regard to the geological survey which he raised, I want to tell him in the first place that the report to which he referred, the report of the investigation which was launched in 1970, became available a little while ago, and is at present being considered by the Public Service Commission. I could furnish a brief summary of the position as it appears from the findings of this report. The number of posts for professional officers, such as geologists among others, which have already been approved, are 123 while the commission has now recommended 253. The number of posts which have to be filled immediately, and are already being filled at the moment is 194. The appointment of 107 technicians was approved even before the report appeared, while 247 are now being recommended. A total of 164 posts have to be filled immediately. A total of 37 administrative posts had already been approved, 55 are now being recommended, and 49 have to be filled immediately. As far as non-Whites are concerned, 149 posts had already been approved, 362 are being recommended and 297 posts have to be filled immediately. I am very pleased the hon. member put this question to me, for the information he is receiving is very interesting. Prior to this report a total of 416 posts had been approved, at present 897 posts are being recommended, and 704 posts have to be filled immediately. It will probably not be possible to fill all the posts immediately. Because we cannot fill all the posts, the necessary financial provision is being requested only for the posts which have to be filled immediately. The entire matter is at present engaging the positive attention of my department and of the Public Service Commission.

The hon. member also stated that the Department of Mines should obtain more active participation in the entire position in regard to the energy set-up because the Department of Mines is so closely concerned with it. I must say that I regard this as a compliment. I want to inform the hon. member and the House that the Department of Mines is playing a cardinal role in every aspect of energy. The hon. member need not have any doubts about that whatsoever, and I can give him the assurance that this is in fact the case. The hon. member asked me for more particulars, and I want to furnish him with these. In regard to the Fuel Research Institute I can say that reconsideration is at present being given to whether it should be the responsibility of Mines or the Department of Planning instead of remaining under the Department of Industries as at present. There is a difference of opinion in this regard. Some people say that it should be the responsibility of the Department of Mines, while others say that it should be the responsibility of the Department of Planning, because the CSIR is closely concerned with fuel research.

Coal as well.

Yes, I know. Some people are now saying that it should be the responsibility of Mines. However, this matter is being discussed at present, and will in due course be settled.

In regard to another question which the hon. member raised, that of the Orange/ Fish tunnels, I want to say that the Department of Mines only exercises control over safety aspects, because the digging of the tunnels is associated with ordinary mining hazards. Last year 4 770 people were employed in the digging of those tunnels. Methane gas occurs in various places. In this way, for example, methane gas issuing from fissures caught alight when they were detonating explosives on 10 October 1971. My department is the only department which really possesses expert knowledge in that sphere and is concerned in that matter. That is the extent to which our responsibility in regard to the Orange/ Fish tunnels extend.

The hon. member and other hon. members also referred to the question of inflation in the mining industry and said that it impeded the further progressive expansion of the mines.

†I wish to inform the hon. member that both the department and the private mining sector are only too aware of the corroding influence which inflation has on the mining industry. As in all other sectors of cur economy, the difficulties cannot easily be overcome because inflation is not only a mining phenomenon. I want to point out that various steps have already been taken in a serious effort to minimize the effects of inflation in the mining industry. I want to refer to only one or two of these steps because I believe it is important that they should be made known. In regard to productivity—to which the hon. member for Johannesburg North and other hon. members referred—a campaign was launched in the mining industry in February this year with the full support of the department and myself. The discussions were attended by all leading mining men in the country and a large number of views and ideas were expressed, some of which are no coubt already being applied by mines where circumstances make this possible. I have every hope that we will be able to curb inflation on the mines through this very serious and sincere effort to step up productivity. I have every hope of these efforts meeting with success. With regard to mechanization I want to say that the Chamber of Mines has launched an extensive mechanization research programme which will cost approximately R150 million over the next five years. Wages on the mines have risen considerably over the last year or two and the workers are now paid Rl-20 per shift. Today it is nothing unusual for a Bantu mineworker to take home well over R1 000 which he has saved up while completing his 18 months’ contract. I want to emphasize that people must realize that wages on the mines have increased tremendously percentage-wise and in other respects, over the past 12 months as well as over the previous 12 months. These rises in the wages constitute a considerable cost factor and the Chamber’s research into mechanization should in the near future lead to considerable benefits for the whole industry, especially in view of the labour problems which may become more difficult as the industry expands. The hon. member for Pinetown made a very important point in this connection which I also want to emphasize. The fact of the matter is that, due to extensions to gold and other mines, there were more than 40 000 more Bantu employed on the mines last year than in the year before. Therefore, when people talk of the problems of Black labour on the mines they must bear in mind that there was actually an increase in the number of Bantu working on the mines and that the number is still increasing. The demand for labour has increased tremendously, and we are getting the necessary labour to a large extent. However. I was dealing with the question raised by the hon. member for Von Brandis. The last point I want to mention in this respect is that the large measure of co-operation between the mines and the Mineworkers’ Union is now making it possible to use non-White labour for the performance of more responsible work on the mines, although this is subject to special conditions that have been agreed upon. I do not want to delay the House by going into that matter further.

*I want to avail myself of this opportunity of pointing out that the co-operation between the department, the Mineworkers’ Union and myself is of the very best and most cordial because I have the interests of the miners at heart. I want to state here this afternoon and convey my sincere gratitude and appreciation to Mr. Arrie Paulus, to the manager of the Mineworkers’ Union, and to the Mineworkers’ Union in general for the extremely good co-operation which I have received from them in all the time I have been Minister. I also want to express the fervent hope that I will also enjoy that co-operation in future, in the interests of South Africa.

†I should also like to say that I want to record my very sincere thanks and appreciation for the most cordial goodwill and co-operation that exists up to this very moment between myself, my department and the Chamber of Mines. I think that this is a very healthy situation for South Africa to be in. Let us make no mistake about it; the fact that we get good co-operation from the Mineworkers’ Union, the Chamber of Mines and the Mine bosses is certainly of the utmost importance for the development of this beautiful industry in the Republic of South Africa. I treasure it and I make a point of going out of my way to keep it that way and I trust—may God bless us all—that it will remain that way because this industry is the mainstay of the Republic of South Africa.

*I think that I have with this replied to most of the important questions put by the hon. member. If there are other questions to which I have not replied, the hon. member could put those questions to me again afterwards. I agreed wholeheartedly with many of the things which the hon. member for Von Brandis said. As far as those points are concerned, it is a very good thing that that is in fact the position.

Just in passing the hon. member mentioned the question of oil. I have all the facts and figures in regard to the oil search in South Africa in front of me. I do not want to go into these particulars on this occasion, but simply indicate two points in this regard. There are bore-holes which are at present being drilled on land. I think I should furnish hon. members with the particulars, for the second point I want to make relates to the entire matter of the oil search. Drilling operations are in progress at Nyalazi in Zululand, with Soekor as the operator. The present depth is 3 791 metres. At present they are drilling through lava. In addition drilling operations are in progress at Doornkop in the Escourt district, where Brad’s Petroleum is both the contractor and operator. At present they are boring through sandstone, and the depth is 1 365 metres. Then, drilling operations are also in progress at Schoonspruit, in the vicinity of Geluksburg. Black Gold is the operator and Brad’s Petroleum is the contractor. At present they have reached a depth of 460 metres and are boring through black shale. There are drilling operations in progress at Kwaggaskurk near Fort Mistake. The operator is L. C. Bradley and the contractor Brad’s Petroleum. They have reached a depth of 126 metres. There are drilling operations in progress at Hartebeespoort in the Pretoria district. The operator is A. J. Jonker. They have reached a depth of 70 metres. In addition, drilling operations are in progress at Ingleside near Colchester. Paddy McDonald is the operator, and Tiefbohr and Soekor are the contractors. They have at present reached a depth of 2 265 metres. These are the true facts, as furnished to me a few days ago by Soekor. These are the facts in regard to the entire position of drilling operations on land. At present we have no marine rigs in operation anywhere along our coastline. The reason for my furnishing these figures now is that ever so often stories break out like measles in South Africa. The newspapers, for example, come up with a story that oil has been discovered somewhere. At the moment it is somewhere in Natal. As the rumours spread, I almost feel like saying that oil has been discovered under Van der Merwe’s motor car—that joke which we have heard so often. I want to point out to the public that if oil is discovered anywhere in South Africa, the highest authority in this country will, believe you me, not waste one minute in announcing this, for it will be of the utmost importance to South Africa. Therefore the public should not in any way allow themselves to be stampeded by newspaper reports in which it is stated that nonofficial sources claim that oil discoveries might have been made here or there. This is being done for one purpose only—to cause land prices to soar and in that way make a lot of money from a gullible public. Allow me to inform our people that if oil is discovered at any of these places, the hon. the Prime Minister and I will know about it. I can give the public the assurance that if oil should in fact be discovered we will be among the first in this country to know it. We will all be so excited that we will not know how to make the knowledge that oil has been discovered public quickly enough. But the public should please not allow itself to be taken in tow by people who have no good intentions, and who only want to make extra money from the increase in land values, etc.

I should like to tell the hon. member for Stilfontein, who is the chairman of the mining group on this side, that I have great appreciation for the appeal which he made to young people to enter the mining industry. I also do this myself, and repeatedly. He broke a lance for the miner in regard to the five-day working week. I am very pleased to be able to say that the Chamber of Mines and the Mineworkers’ Union are ironing out the problems attendant upon this, and I have every hope that those problems will in fact be ironed out by them. One hopes that progress will in fact be made in this regard. But the hon. member for Stilfontein raised another important matter here, to which I want to react briefly. It relates to the Mines and Works Act, which came into operation on 1 October 1973. Because this is of importance to the miners, as well as to the hon. members representing mining constituencies, I should like to make certain information known. The undoubted benefits which the Occupational Diseases in Mines and Works Act have entailed for the miner in South Africa, is reflected by the increase in new certifications. From the commencement of the Act on 1 October 1973 until 31 July 1974—a period of only a few months—a total of 508 new certifications of living miners was made, as against a total of 304 in the comparable period when the old Act was still applicable, i.e. in the period from 1 October 1972 to 31 July 1973. This represents an increase of 67% in certifications between 1 October 1973 and 31 July 1974. For the sake of interest I could perhaps mention that in the group 20% to 50%, 2 191 conversions were approved. They can now obtain the total amount in one lump sum. In the group above 50% 53 conversions took place, i.e. a total of 2 246 conversions to an amount of more than R20 million. I thought it would be a good thing if I furnished this information to hon. members.

The hon. member for Johannesburg North raised a very important matter here, and I want to say the following in regard to it.

†Of course we will take all the necessary steps to continue having not only good mining in South Africa but also much better mining in the years to come. In passing I just want to refer to one aspect. According to a very recent report which I received from the National Institute of Metallurgy in July this year it has been calculated that the income from minerals in the North-Western Cape alone will possibly exceed R1 000 million in 1980, six years from now, with a steep rise after that, and that in a part of the world with a very bad infrastructure at this stage. There is no railway line. The first will be the Saldanha-Sishen line which it is hoped will be completed towards the end of 1976. What is more important, the National Institute of Metallurgy informs me, after a very detailed survey over the past couple of months, that we may quite possibly be on the verge of new and exciting discoveries of various types of minerals. The North-Western Cape appears more and more to be a real storehouse of minerals. The potential there, and not only there but also in other parts of South Africa, is simply tremendous. Prospecting and other activities are continuing and we are doing everything in our power to promote those activities. Let me assure hon. members that I have no more exciting task than this. We are doing everything in our power to assist as far as it is humanly possible to do so. The same applies to gold and other deposits which were mentioned. The hon. member for Johannesburg North and the hon. member for Pinetown both mentioned the question of 3% allowance in respect of married quarters for Bantu workers on the mines. This is a very complicated issue. I can assure this House that the mining houses have up to now not filled the 3%. I am very sympathetically inclined. They came to see me and we discussed the matter at length. I say again, that I am very sympathetically inclined. There is no doubt about it, there are factors in favour of stepping the figure up to say 5%. In terms of what the hon. member for Pinetown said, there would of course be factors in favour of doing away with this on the mines if one could. I am referring to the labour problem as he described it. However, one has to be realistic, and if the mines have not been able to fill 3%, what is the use of stepping the figure up to 5%?

It is because of the restrictions.

No, it is not as simple as that. The fact of the matter is that I am sympathetically inclined, and if proof can be furnished. I assure hon. members that I will investigate the matter very thoroughly and see what can be done because we do not want the mines to suffer, we do not want the future of mining to be jeopardized in the least.

The hon. member for Johannesburg North also made certain suggestions about the lease formula, about the capital redemption allowance, and in connection with old mines that are reopened or where existing mines are extended. I have taken note of his suggestions with great interest because, of course, one does not want the Government to lose in respect of the taxes earned, and if there are suggestions that that figure can remain the same, one has to look at those suggestions very carefully. I am happy to tell the hon. member that that is precisely what is being done at the moment. We have already heard something about this. At the moment the matter is in the hands of my colleague, the hon. the Minister of Finance, and I am told that the proposals have been sent by the Minister of Finance for investigation to the standing commission of inquiry on taxation. We will therefore know the outcome of this matter in the very near future.

*My friend the hon. member for Welkom as a Freestater advocated that the large-scale uranium plant should be established in the Free State. This is a matter which is receiving attention at the moment. I can give no decision whatsoever in regard to where the plant will be established. There are quite a number of factors which have to be taken into consideration, but this matter is already receiving attention.

Sir, the hon. member for Klerksdorp made a very important contribution here. I want to tell hon. members, with reference to what the hon. member for Klerksdorp said, that the National Institute for Metallurgy is playing an important role in South Africa. Sir, Australia, for example, does not have the mineral wealth which we have, and do you know how many metallurgists the Australian universities produced last year? No fewer than 105. Compared to that, South Africa with all its great riches, produced only 15 last year from all our universities. Sir, if there were ever a fine profession in which creative work is being done, then it is this profession. For example it would not have been possible to process gold if it had not been for the metallurgists who processed the ore from the crude rock by means of metallurgical processes to the stage where one is able to sell the final product, namely gold, at the tremendous price for which it is being sold today. The same applies to every mineral. I therefore identify myself with the hon. member’s plea that we should find methods of bringing home to our young people the importance and the excitement of this profession to a far greater extent.

Sir, I want to thank the hon. member for Etosha for his contribution. He is perfectly correct when he said that we must not think of minerals as being a dwindling asset, but should rather think of them as being an asset which will be with us for many years to come, but at the same time we should also be realistic in this regard.

Sir, the hon. member for Virginia discussed the miners. I identify myself completely with what he said here. He asked for research to be done into better working conditions, and that instruction should be given to the youth. I can inform the hon. member that the National Institute for Metallurgy is now sending a mobile unit out to the schools to inform our young people on the excellent possibilities in this profession. As regards research to establish better working conditions, I can inform him that large sums of money are being spent on research.

The hon. member for Bryanston tried to imply here that our mineral wealth in South Africa is being developed and planned in an ad hoc manner. Sir, that is not true. To prove that it is not true, I want to inform the hon. members that the establishment of a Minerals Bureau has already been announced. Last year I requested all the bodies that could be involved in mining to recommend the best method of drawing up a master plan in regard to our mineral position in South Africa. They then came forward with the joint recommendation that a coordinating body should be established, that is, a Minerals Bureau; they themselves suggested a name for this body. This matter has already made very considerable progress. The Public Service Commission is at present considering the post structure for this Minerals Bureau, and we hope that this Minerals Bureau will be in operation within two or three months’ time. Sir, I want to set out the task of this Minerals Bureau, and then hon. members will realize that the master plan for which the hon. member for Bryanston asked, has already been introduced by the Government and is already being implemented. The task of the Bureau will be as follows: (a) to collect, update and process all possible information on the country’s minerals with regard to (1) reserves, (2) production, local consumption, export, etc., (3) utilization applications, local and international, (4) utilization tendencies, (5) prices, supply and demand, (6) local reserves as against supply and demand and as against national reserves and as against international supply and demand, and (7) projection studies with future utilization trends, negotiability of minerals, etc. What I have now presented here covers the entire field of mineral economy. The task of the Bureau will also be: (b) to process into reports the studies made in terms of (a) and the information collected in this way in respect of each separate mineral, reports which may be used for the formulation of policy in respect of exploitation, conservation, local refinement and processing, marketing promotion, physical, regional and national planning, infrastructure, etcetera; and (c) to keep updated basic statistics on labour, cost aspects, commodity consumption, etc. I can therefore reassure the hon. member completely by telling him that the master plan for which he has asked, is being introduced, and that I have appreciation for the fact that he raised the matter here.

I want to congratulate the hon. member for Rustenburg very sincerely on his exciting speech. It is true that our mines are a real treasure. I identify myself completely with that statement. I have already replied to him as far as his request for a publicity campaign to be launched among our young people is concerned. Naturally, more attention should be given to this matter. It is a question of educating the people. I always say that if the mothers of our country know what the mineral position is, they will educate their children in regard to this matter while they are still at home, and this is perhaps the most important aspect here. But the greatest and best publicity I know of in bringing the prospects in the mineral industry to the attention of the young people we had evidence of in this House this afternoon, viz. where all the parties in this House made an appeal to our young people to turn to this industry. I think that this will go further than any other advertising campaign which I can think of at the moment, and consequently I thank the hon. member for his contribution. I have already replied to the hon. member for Pinetown. AH that still remains for me to do is to reply to the hon. member for Brentwood, who also made a very fine contribution. I just want to say to the hon. member, in regard to the question of occupational diseases which he raised, that the Department of Health is at present devoting serious attention to this matter. Our department and all the other interested departments are involved in this, and therefore I need not say anything further about it at this stage.

†Lastly there is my good friend the hon. member for Rosettenville who spoke about accidents. I do not want to make a long story of it. Of course, if we can do away with accidents on the mines, we will do it; we would be delighted to do it, but I must point out that the mines have got to work deeper and deeper, and because of that the possibility of accidents does not diminish but increases. It actually becomes more dangerous to work deeper.

*I think we may point to a proud record in regard to the accident rate on our mines. Let me furnish the following figures. The death and injury rate on all the mines in 1964 was 49,44 per 1 000. In spite of the fact that we are mining at greater depth and the conditions are therefore becoming more difficult, the accident rate dropped in 1973 to 44,75 per 1 000. It therefore dropped by more than 5 per 1 000, in spite of the more difficult conditions. On the gold mines it dropped from 61,12 per 1 000 in 1964 to 55,64 per 1 000 in 1973. On the coal mines it dropped—this is the death and injury rate—from 33,79 to 20,59 per 1 000. Since I am furnishing the hon. member with these statistics, I want to point out that we therefore have a fine record, but I want to associate myself with him when he says that everything physically possible and imaginable should be done to reduce this accident and injury rate even further for, as he said, this would make an important contribution to attracting more labour to the mines.

I want to conclude then by dealing with the position of labour on the mines. A great deal is being said and written about this matter at the moment. I want to give the House the absolute assurance that the Government and I as well are giving serious attention to this matter on the highest level and in closest co-operation with the Chamber of Mines, and I want to give this House and the country the assurance that at this stage they need not feel in the least concerned. The position is well under control. Above ground the labour utilization on the mines as far as Bantu are concerned is more than 100%. Underground it is in the order of 90%. In this connection I want to quote a letter which I received on 26 September 1974—

Therefore we can, as far as my knowledge extends—I take an intense interest in this matter—look forward with real optimism in all respects to an excellent industry which has great potential, and which will burgeon to an even greater extent in the years to come, in the interests of South Africa and all its people, White as well as non-White.

Votes agreed to.

Revenue Vote No. 31.—“Immigration”:

Mr. Chairman, I think it is a pity that the important portfolio of Immigration to which the taxpayers contribute more than R7 million has come up for discussion at a late stage on a Friday afternoon when the majority of us have probably already reached saturation point. I think it is a pity too that only half an hour has been allocated to this side of the House for the discussion of this portfolio. As there are at least four of the hon. members on this side, including myself, who would like to make a contribution to this debate, it is obvious that we shall face problems in fitting four speakers into half an hour.

As this is the first time too that I shall be introducing this subject on behalf of the official Opposition, I shall perhaps be permitted to indicate in broad terms how we view the activities of the Department of Immigration. I must say at the outset that I am not one who contends that America necessarily sets an example to the rest of the world and that what they do is necessarily the right way of doing things, but I believe that in the field of immigration they have set an example which we could have emulated. We frequently overlook the fact that America was discovered at about the time that South Africa was discovered. Indeed, there is a very close parallel in the history of the two countries. In both cases they were discovered by the Portuguese. In both cases they were colonized by the Dutch. In both cases they had a war of independence. In their case they won it and in our case we lost it. Perhaps this had a psychological impact upon our people from which lots of subsequent developments stem. However, the point I want to make is that the Americans decided at an early stage in their development that they wanted immigrants, that they wanted people because people represented power. It may perhaps not be generally remembered that in the beginning of the century the Americans took in more than 40 million immigrants. Over a ten-year period at the beginning of this century they took in 8 million people from Europe and at the height of their immigration campaign in 1907 in one year they got in 1,5 million immigrants. If this could have been repeated in South Africa, think of the profound impact on our whole local situation and on the history of our country. Regrettably, however, there were people in this country, and more particularly after the last war when the climate was so conducive to immigration on a massive scale, who for various reasons decided to cut back on immigration and hence missed the boat both literally and figuratively speaking. Otherwise, our history, I believe, could have taken a completely different turn. Why do you want immigrants in a country? Obviously there are lots of reasons: To supplement your population, to import human skills and so on. The way we would do it would be to support a dynamic State-aided immigration scheme, because we believe that this is essential for South Africa’s economic and cultural development. This immigration must obviously be on a selective basis and be State-aided. It is quite easy to make out a case for immigration on economic grounds. We have all the examples before us. The economic development programme indicates that we cannot even begin to reach our projected growth levels unless we have a net immigration figure of some 30 000 people per year. I believe that immigration is also necessary for cultural purposes, to get in new ideas and enthusiasms. In-breeding is a bad thing and applies in the cultural field as well. We as a party would stand for a dynamic, State-aided immigration scheme on a selective basis. If you do this, you import not only new people but also new skills, new ideas, new enthusiasm and new initiative. By doing this you create a more sophisticated internal market and thus in the long term ensures the economic prosperity of South Africa. If that is the basic aim—it is certainly the aim of this side of the House—there are a number of things that will have to be done. Quite obviously immigration has become far more competitive; it is not as easy to acquire immigrants overseas as might have been the case a decade ago. Hence we will continually have to review the inducements which we as a country are prepared to offer them. I think it is important in this sense too that the local climate, the national image of our country, should be a favourable one. Here again the situation is changing; it is changing for the worse. People are not coming to South Africa if they feel that there is a lack of security, and with the developments on our borders and in the southern hemisphere, the local milieu, the local atmosphere is not one that is going to entice immigrants to come to South Africa. I also think immigrants will only come if there are inducements in the form of social services. Overseas you have social services on a very advanced level in most countries. It is well known that although South Africa is a rich country, the level of our social services does not compare favourably with that available in most of our parent countries in Europe today. Another important factor in the whole immigration plan is not merely getting immigrants to come to this country, but to absorb, to integrate and to assimilate them in our society. It is always a matter of regret to me that throughout the years, although we have succeeded in getting many immigrants, according to the statistics at my disposal we have succeeded in naturalizing only about 10% of those who have come to South Africa. I believe that if you have such a low figure, and I believe this figure of 10% is the correct one, there is something wrong somewhere. I think we have shirked our duty or that we have failed somewhere in not being able to get a greater proportion of immigrants to identify themselves fully with South Africa by taking out citizenship. I think one of the things we will have to do in this connection is to establish closer personal contact with immigrants and to have advisory agencies, possibly in the nature of labour bureaux, to make quite sure that contact can be established between immigrants and those who can provide them with employment. What is important in the long term, of course, is also the net immigration figure. There is no sense in taking immigrants into our country if we are losing an equal number who are emigrating from South Africa. At the moment there is a favourable balance; we are getting more in than we are losing, but I want to say that it is important that we must stop this brain drain from South Africa. It is not only Whites who are leaving our country at the moment; in many cases we are losing the cream of our Coloured population. I am often staggered when I see how many thousands of Coloured people of real substance who can play so important a role in our own society, leave our country to emigrate to Canada and elsewhere. We have so very little time that all I tried to do was to indicate how we feel about the problem of immigration and to show that we will have a dynamic State-aided immigration scheme on a selective basis to augment not only our population, but to import those skills which are so necessary for our future economic survival.

Mr. Chairman, on account of the importance of the subject of the debate, we came here expecting the debate to be conducted at a very high level. I am afraid the hon. member who has just spoken invites one to talk a bit of politics on the matter, for in this respect he threw the doors wide open. I shall not try to react to everything he said, but I do want to refer to a few matters he dealt with. In the first place, he spoke of the limited time allocated for the discussion of the Vote. I want to say at once that it is not the fault of this side of the House. Apart from that, I think the fact that the Opposition requested only an hour-long discussion on this Vote was the best compliment one could have paid the hon. the Minister and his department. It shows that the Opposition has no fault to find with what the department is doing. I want to say at once that I want to congratulate the hon. the Minister and his department on the fact that they are so popular with the United Party that they do not see their way clear to discussing this matter for more than an hour. I understand the hon. member’s position, but today he spoke of a dynamic immigration scheme and said that we should have allowed the eight million people he spoke about to enter the country. What is the real fact of the matter? It is that they, in spite of the fact that they said when they were in power that the “good, the bad and the lot” should be allowed to enter the country, never came near the numbers which have been allowed to enter the country under this Government. I have before me a summary of the statistics, as they appeared in the annual report, for the period from 1961 to 1970. In that period there was a total of 343 000 immigrants who entered the country.

Thirty thousand per year?

We shall presently come to the number per year. That hon. member and the members of the United Party have no cause for complaint. The 343 000 immigrants who entered the country during this period, are ten times more than the number of immigrants who entered the country while they were in power. There was a reason why this Government adopted a specific standpoint in regard to the admission of immigrants into South Africa. That reason was that provision had to be made for employment opportunities for the people who were admitted into the country; otherwise we would have had to take away employment opportunities from our own people, White and non-White. In the second place, there had to be an infrastructure in industry which could accommodate those people. The lack of an infrastructure experienced at that time was not the fault of this Government but the fault of that lot of people on the opposite side.

Order!

Pardon me, Mr. Chairman, it was the fault of the hon. members on that side and their party. The hon. member makes a big fuss about the large number of emigrants leaving the country, but surely this is an untruth. There are not so many people leaving the country. When one looks at the statistics, one sees that the number of people leaving the country increases when the Opposition, with their destructive, negative criticism, present things in such an unfavourable light that the people are put off staying in South Africa. The latest figures indicate that there was a decrease in the number of emigrants in the past five years. Here are the figures. In 1970 4 700 emigrants left the country, in 1971 4 300, in 1972 3 800, and in 1973 3 400 …

You are speaking of Whites only.

We are now discussing White emigrants. These figures show a decrease, a decrease effected, in the first place, by the very positive policy of the Department of immigration and by the way in which South Africa succeeds in making new citizens feel at home here. This is something I shall speak about later. In the second place, those people remain here in spite of the criticism, the attitude and the propaganda of the United Party.

Mr. Chairman, may I put a question to the hon. member? I just want to ask him whether he is aware of the fact that the hon. member for Hillbrow also wanted to emigrate, but that no country would have him?

One could not hold it against those countries if they did not want him.

I should like to conclude on a more positive note. In discussing this Vote I, in the first place, should like to convey my congratulations as well as, no doubt, those of this side of the House, to the hon. the Minister for having been awarded the Order of Malta in September last year. I shall not try to read the full name of the Order here; this award was made for a contribution the hon. the Minister made over a period of 20 years with the assimilation of immigrants into the South African community and especially in respect of refugees who came and settled in South Africa. This is a very high award and it is only awarded for distinguished service. That Order which was awarded to him has a fine motto which I should like to read out to the House. It reads: “For the sake of our Lord, the Sick and the Poor”. On behalf of this side of the House I want to congratulate the hon. the Minister on that.

In the second place, I want to place on record my appreciation this afternoon for the services rendered by the former member for Geduld as chairman of the immigration group over a period of eight years, not only to this side of the House, but to everyone, and for the very positive stand point he adopted on this matter during that period.

I shall not have time to speak about the matters I would have liked to discuss. I also wanted to speak about assimilation, but perhaps I should content myself with expressing great appreciation here this afternoon for the very excellent work done by the various assimilation organizations, and I am using the plural form intentionally. In the first place there is the “Maatskappy vir Europese Immigrasie”, with which is incorporated the “Kultuur-akademie” in Johannesburg. Since I had the opportunity of being present there on various occasions, I know what I am speaking about. It is a pity that there is not a “kultuurakademie” of this kind in every major centre in the country for the purpose of assimilating our new citizens who come to this country. I would also be neglecting my duty this afternoon if I did not mention the outstanding work which is being done by the 1820 Settlers’ Associaon …

Hear, hear!

… especially in connection with fostering a language-consciousness—the learning of a second language—among the new citizens. That hon. member exclaims “hear, hear”; the United Party only shout “hear, hear” when the discussion follows a direction which suits them or when a Minister is criticized. That is a negative attitude. I should like to express appreciation for the work being done by these people and I want to say that it is extremely essential work.

Finally, I should also like to speak about the excellent and positive contribution made by the immigrants in South Africa and the value and meaning they have for South Africa. Sir, if we think about what we have actually gained in the line of professional people, managers and administrative people, clerical workers, sales and related workers, and workers in agriculture, mining, transport, communications and factory and construction work in the form of immigrants who have come to this country, we do not really appreciate how much South Africa has benefited economically over the past 13 years under this Government and under the positive and dynamic action of this Minister and his department who have ensured this gain for South Africa. Converted into training fees which it would otherwise have cost us to train the people, it represents a saving of millions upon millions of rand for South Africa. As far as this side of the House is concerned, we have nothing but the greatest appreciation for the fact that people come to South Africa who are in the first place easily integrated with and assimilated into the indigenous White population and, in the second place, are prepared to serve South Africa and South Africa’s case in a positive manner. I am grateful to be able to say that the new citizens of this country are not regarded as parasites or people who have only come here for a specific purpose; they are regarded as new male and female of South Africa who have come to render a service to South Africa. This afternoon I also want to pay tribute to those new citizens of South Africa.

Mr. Chairman, the aggressive attitude of the hon. member for Springs at the resumption of the debate, when he descended to his level of political trafficking, one might almost call it, in the lives of people whom we need badly in this country, is one of the unfortunate factors which seem to militate against a much improved flow of immigrants to South Africa. He talked utter nonsense. In the year 1947-’48 we gained nearly 50 000 new immigrants, whilst in the year 1950-’51 a total of more than 2 000 emigrants in excess of immigrants left this country. The whole of the history of immigration during 1950-’61 was an absolute blot on the escutcheon of the Department of Immigration. It was an absolute blot on the record of the country’s whole policy. The hon. member should have given attention to these facts …

All of them came back again.

… rather than to come and talk the nonsense he talked today. Just to interrupt what I intended to say, let me make this fact very clear. The total migration gain over the past two years, in spite of all hon. members had to say, represents an increase of only 0,14% in the White population of this country, which should have been increasing, as was correctly pointed out and according to the EDP-requirements, at the rate of 2,38% during the years 1970 to 1975, if we were at all to maintain our standard of economic growth. It should have resulted in a net immigration flow of 30 000 a year, which we have not had.

I would immediately like to say that there is no question—and it has been exemplified this afternoon—that the selective immigration which is the policy of the department, about which we do not complain, is still haunted by the inhibitions and the fears of this Government which have characterized its policy from 1948 right up till 1962-’63. Only then did it begin to realize how vitally important it was to bring back a new flow of people in order to revitalize the lifeblood of the economy and culture of the community of South Africa. This is the entire problem with this department. If the hon. the Minister himself, I think, had his hands more free from the ideological problems of his party and their unfortunate, inhibited fears over this question, the whole flow of immigration would change entirely. Let us look at the actual figure and not pay any attention to the nonsense that we have heard. Over the period 1 July 1968 to 30 June 1974 we had a biennial immigration rate of 73 000, 66 000 and 54 000 and an emigration flow of respectively, 16 000, 15 000 and 13 000. What did we find? Although we had an influx of 40%, as far as these totals are concerned, of economically active persons, the outflow of economically active persons was slightly in excess of this 40% figure. What did we really gain? What we gained we virtually lost. One of the important factors of immigration is the economically active people who come into the country. I want to say that the figures we have for 1968 to 1974 fall far short of the 30 000 net inflow that we require. There is another unfortunate factor which is also due to the difficulties raised by the hon. member. This is that we have had a brain drain from this country which I think has reached proportions which are not healthy for this country. We are losing some of our best young people. This is highlighted even more by the other unfortunate factor in this department to which I should like to draw the attention of the hon. the Minister, namely, the inability to ensure that immigrants to this country remain here as permanent citizens. They are not doing what Gen. Smuts asked them to do and expected them to do as immigrants to this country, namely, to regard this country as theirs, something in which they should become absorbed, become part and parcel of, something that was as much theirs as it was that of the indigenous population of this country. We find that over a period of nine years Australia had an inflow of 1 215 000 immigrants. How many of these became naturalized citizens of Australia during that period? Over 420 000. This means that just over 32% of the immigrants to that country became naturalized. Why cannot we show a record of that nature? Why is there some peculiar reserve which prevents those coming to this country from accepting naturalization? Is this perhaps due to red tape or other problems which make it difficult for the immigrant to make up his mind to become a naturalized citizen of this country? That is the sort of thing that one would like to do something about. I want to tell the hon. the Minister that there is some difficulty in regard to this particular aspect to which he must direct his attention.

With regard to immigration itself, there should furthermore be an inducement to people to enter the country. They should not have problems in regard to pressure for complete bilingualism. I do not say that because we are against bilingualism as a party; it is a most desirable thing to have. However, how can one expect people who have all sorts of difficulties, to have to learn not one additional language but two? Surely they should be able to have an opportunity over a period of time to become bilingual; or at least, if not in regard to the immigrant, then in regard to his children. The immigrant should however be given the opportunity of easing himself gradually into the life of a community without having to face these difficulties and other irritations and pinpricks which assail him when he enters the country. I believe that these immigrants should be given every opportunity because, as has been pointed out, it is essential in the life of our country that culturally and economically and numerically, from the point of view of the demographic future of the country, that we have more and more immigrants. The parallel with Australia is one which also exists in relation to the other countries of the Western world. In the past 10 or 15 years, with the tremendous economic upsurge in the world, with the creation of new industries and the expansion of old industries, with the question of reinvestment from older countries into newer countries and the investment of surplus funds in countries like South Africa, it has become essential for us to have the necessary manpower and the necessary skills. We should encourage companies which start production in this country to bring their own staff with them, as we did with the Atlas Corporation. We should encourage them to bring technically qualified people into this country. In order to do this, we should make the entry of such people into this country much more easy in fact than has been the case in the past. These are factors which we have to take into account in dealing with immigration.

Just to give a practical example in regard to the question of naturalization—the granting of citizenship—we find that during the period from 1961 to 1968, out of a gross inflow of 264 000 immigrants to this country only 13% became naturalized South Africans. The figure of 10% given by the hon. member for Hillbrow was for the period from 1948 to 1960. That is not a very good record for any Ministry to show in regard to the desire on the part of the immigrant to accept South Africa and the South African way of life as something which he wishes to adopt for himself and for the future. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, both the previous speakers referred here to emigration out of South Africa, and both members also spoke about a “brain drain”. It is really fortunate that the emigration out of South Africa is not so great as the emigration and the “brain drain” out of the United Party we have remarked recently. Sir, the hon. members have not given us the full picture. One only gets the full picture when one balances the loss in emigrants against the gain in immigrants. If they take the full picture, they will find that there has been an enormous gain for South Africa over the past two decades. But. Sir, the fact is that the people emigrating from South Africa are for the most part people who had immigrated here a short time before; that is the greatest loss we have. These are people who immigrated here and who, for one reason or another, were unable to fit in here. Sir, in this regard, I just want to quote to you one short paragraph from The German Tribune of 3 October 1974, which is not a local newspaper—

A great fuss is being made about emigration cut of South Africa to a country such as Canada, for example. Here a comparison is drawn between South Africa and Canada by an independent, impartial periodical like The German Tribune which states matters objectively.

Sir, I should like to express my thanks and appreciation for the task performed by the entire Department of Immigration, but I want to refer in particular to the officials that perform the task of recruiting people for us abroad. Last year, while on a tour in the United Kingdom—to England, Scotland and Wales—I had the privilege of visiting some of our immigration offices there. Here I want to refer in particular to our immigration office in Glasgow, Scotland. Sir, I was impressed there by the necessity of having dedicated people who have the right attitude and approach and who have our immigration requirements at their fingertips. If one considers that these staff members sit there in distant countries, far from their parents and family and friends, and that they are overcome by a great homesickness and longing for our sunny South Africa, then one begins to realize the sacrifices those people are making. I refer here, as I said, to the staff in Glasgow. I know that it is impossible to keep a staff member at a specific centre for a specific period, since it can sometimes be very difficult to relieve or replace experienced members of staff with other experienced members of staff at will. But I nevertheless want to ask the hon. the Minister whether it would not be possible to shorten the period of compulsory residence at the overseas centres to enable those people to return to South Africa and establish themselves here once again and be reunited with their family and fatherland. I ask this with particular reference to the families with school going children.

I should like to express a few ideas in regard to the importance of the woman in the whole immigration set-up. In my opinion it is on the woman that the success or failure of immigration depends. There are four important points in particular that we should remember in regard to immigration: Firstly, selection and guidance; secondly, the reception on arrival of the immigrant or the immigrant family; thirdly, the provision of employment; and, fourthly, after-care which includes, in the main, assimilation, settlement and integration. In the case of the immigrant family that immigrates to this country, attention must be paid to the wife and mother with regard to each of these particular aspects. In the process of selection in the country of origin, special note must be taken of the willingness of the wife to emigrate and the possibility of her adapting in the new country. Provision of employment and after-care are certainly the important aspects that determine the success of immigration and here the wife plays a very important role, directly on indirectly. An indispensable link between the arrival and reception on the one hand and the long-term assimilation on the other is, of course, the successful provision of employment. The immigrant—married or unmarried—forms many of the value judgments that influence his attitude and his future actions, from the work situation—viz. the attitude of the employer, his fellow-workers and trade unions, and conditions of work. The man comes home from work and tells his wife about his experiences, and her reaction and her influence on him can be positive or negative. If the man finds satisfaction in his job and progresses well in it, he is rapidly integrated economically. In the cultural integration that usually follows the economic integration, the wife must take part. To ensure and accelerate cultural integration, it is of importance that there should be security in regard to the man’s retention of his job, and this knowledge makes his wife happy, too. It is particularly in respect of the assimilation and integration that the wife is a vital factor and in respect of which she should not be forgotten, but deserves special attention. It is sometimes the wife who finds it most difficult to adjust. She is the one who easily becomes lonely and who is plagued by homesickness and longing for her country of origin. She sometimes unconsciously misses the safe background of her parents and the rest of her family. In the daytime she stays at home and feels terribly lonely. The man has contacts at his place of work. The child finds it easy to fit in at school. He adjusts and adapts quickly. But from experience it is the immigrant’s wife who either does not learn the languages of the country at all or who takes longest to learn them and is thereby caused to be even more cut-off and lonely. She is even unable, owing mainly to language difficulties, to help her children with their homework, even though she may have been able to help them a little in her home country. If the wife is not convinced of the desirability of immigration and if she does not have the correct attitude right from the start, and if she does not give her full co-operation after their arrival here as well, then such a family should rather never have immigrated and the seed of failure is already inherent within that immigration. An investigation has indicated, and this is an interesting fact, that 90% of the immigrant families who returned to their countries of origin, returned as a result of the uncertainty and instability of the woman in the new country. This uncertainty is to a large extent caused by the fact that she misses her family and friends with whom she is able to discuss her basic problems, such as, among other things, the problem of what would become of her husband and family if she were no longer there. It is the immigrant’s wife in particular who is shut in by the walls of her flat or her home and who does not have the opportunity of talking to friends and who does not always have the opportunity of exchanging ideas with the South African women either. The woman is the pivot around which the domestic happiness of the whole family turns and if she is unhappy, if she lacks stability or feels unwelcome, then this will certainly have a chain reaction on her husband and their children. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, I should like to follow a slightly different line of approach to that of the hon. member for Gezina. I wonder whether the hon. the Minister will be good enough to make a brief statement on the criteria the Immigration Board uses in accepting immigrants, both as individuals and as groups. As far as groups are concerned, we have seen statements from time to time about the necessity for maintaining the balance between Protestants and Catholics in this country. One wonders on what basis this calculation is made. Is it as a result of the application of this formula, if one may call it that, that the country is in fact in danger of losing a fairly valuable supply of immigrants?

That is one point I wanted to make. I now come to the next. Can the hon. the Minister tell us what role educational qualifications play in admitting individuals? I know of one or two cases where artisans have failed to gain admission to this country as immigrants because their educational qualifications were not up to standard, although there was absolutely no reason to believe that they were not first-class workmen. Is this wise? I am obviously not pleading for a non-selective immigration scheme because we have to have some kind of mesh. I am also certainly not suggesting that our own non-White people should not be trained to do skilled work. On the contrary, we would welcome this. However, it is a fact that every trained man and every trained artisan—our need for them is desperate, as everybody knows—who enters this country is one who helps to create work and further jobs for South Africans, both Black and White. My plea to the hon. the Minister is not to make this mesh too narrow. We do not want a free-for-all, but I believe that this is a case where we should employ some flexibility.

I should also like to support the appeals which are made from time to time to people who come to this country to take out South African citizenship as soon as possible. This seems to me to be the eminently sensible thing to do. However, I have a case in mind where a teacher, who came from Ireland, experienced the greatest difficulty. The hon. the Minister knows about this case, so I am not going into any kind of detail; indeed, he has been very considerate about it. All I am saying is that there are such cases. It seems to me that we need far more flexibility in judging individual cases of this nature. As far as one knows there was no case against this particular person, but he had to go through all the motions. I wonder whether there is not, in fact, in the interest of the whole scheme as such, a very strong case for showing more flexibility when it comes to judging individual cases. The case I mention is just an isolated one, but I have no doubt that it happens quite frequently.

In the final minute that I have I should like to put it on record, for the sake of the hon. member for Springs, that those of us who were not in politics in 1948 had absolutely no doubt that there were no economic reasons for the strangulation of the Smuts immigration scheme; the reasons were purely political. It was simply a fear on the part of the Nationalist Party that immigrants would plough them under.

Mr. Chairman, we have had several speakers up to now, inter alia the hon. member for Jeppe and also the hon. member for Parktown, who, at the end of his speech, took a certain facet out of our history and advanced it as a reason why we had a poor inflow of immigrants at that time. It is a pity that they did this. To what extent were they to blame, after the Sharpeville incidents at the time, for presenting to the outside world a worse image in that regard? The hon. member for Parktown took part in this debate on behalf of his party; however, what I actually wanted to do in the few minutes at my disposal was to welcome the hon. member for Johannesburg North here. The hon. member for Johannesburg North is actually the ideal person to tell us how it happens that an immigrant comes to South Africa, how he adapts himself here and how he can play a role in this country. However, he had only one problem when he entered this country. He visited the Free State too seldom and came under wrong influences, with the result that he is sitting in the wrong bench now.

You are welcome to come, too.

When we talk about immigrants, there are two thoughts that involuntarily occur to one. The one is that any immigrant is also an emigrant from another country. If he comes to one’s country, there is something which attracts him there. When he leaves another country, there are certain things pushing him away from that country. There were the few who, in the olden days, simply emigrated for the fun and the adventure of it, but I am afraid that those days are over now. Many of our forefathers came here for the sake of the adventure because this was a strange and unknown country, but those days are past as a result of our modern system of transport. When it comes to the question of attracting immigrants here, I want to disagree with hon. members opposite and say that we are not prepared to advertise our country for something which it is not and of which we are not capable. I will definitely not advise the Government to try to attract immigrants with the promise that they will, for instance, be able to get a pension here.

South Africa is what it is, as the hon. member for Durban North always says, and it cannot be anything else. What do we offer them? At the moment we are sitting in this House, but outside we have the loveliest sunshine that one can find anywhere in the world. Here in our country we have the coldest and the hottest places on earth. Then we also have the jungle of the Kruger National Park and the sweeping plains of the Free State and the Northern Cape. Furthermore, we also have the most interesting composition of peoples in the entire world. We have here the White man, the Brown man, the Indian and the Bantu who are living together in harmony. Then we have, in addition, a wealth of food. We have no underfeeding here, and we have a variety of food in this country which no other country in the world can offer. We also have opportunities for employment here.

A moment ago we discussed the Department of Mines, and apart from that we have such a wealth of other opportunities for employment that no other country in the world can match us, with the result that we have the lowest unemployment rate in the world. As we have just heard during the previous debate, opportunities for employment are being created as a result of the exploitation of our minerals. This is also being done by way of the supply of power, irrigation schemes, the storage dams that are being built and the establishment of a sound infrastructure. This is the image which we like to present to the world: This is South Africa! But this is not all.

When a person from another country comes here, stability also plays a role. Over a period of 26 years we have only had four Prime Ministers, whilst only one party has been governing this country. Irrespective of the attacks directed against us from whatever quarter in connection with the recruitment of immigrants, I nevertheless believe that we shall succeed in getting the people we need. The only condition we lay down is that whatever the position may be, we should never lower our standard for the sake of numbers. I want to say to the type of immigrant, such as the hon. member for Johannesburg North, whom they integrated with us that they can do a great deal for us in this beautiful country of ours. They can do a great deal by conveying to the persons with whom they have links in their countries of origin—their family ties and their ties of friendship—a better image of this country. They can see to it that these people are presented with a better image so that we in South Africa may get the immigrants we need.

Once immigrants have entered the country, we have the question of their having to be integrated and settled in, as the hon. member for Gezina said. Their adaptation is a bilateral adaptation; on the one hand the immigrant himself has to adapt and, on the other hand, he has to be accepted by those people in the community into which he, as an immigrant, is received. My experience has been that there is one shortcoming that arises. So many of the immigrants enter the country with a family—the hon. member for Gezina also referred to this—i.e. with a wife and with children, and then they are provided with accommodation and the husband obtains employment. Then one often finds that the husband, as the breadwinner, is quite satisfied because he, as he says, has done his duty as far as the financial aspect is concerned. He goes home at night and is perfectly satisfied because he has his friends and his connections in his sphere of employment. He promptly becomes integrated but does not think of his wife and his family.

This is how the frustration, to which the hon. member referred, develops in the family. This can only give rise to the immigrant being frustrated by his wife and his family. Just because they do not feel happy as a family, he then says that this is a bad country. This, then, becomes his excuse for wanting to go back. However, the hon. members on the opposite side of the House say that these people are going back as a result of our country’s policy of apartheid and all that, I am tempted to say, rubbish which cause them to be unhappy in our country.

I should also like to speak about the employer. The employer, be it the State or a private body which lured the immigrants to South Africa, must also have a share in making the trained employee feel more at home. We often find that the private bodies and the factories where they work—and on the Rand there are many of them—are quite content just to obtain that person’s labour. Other than that they could not care less about him and his family. And then one finds that such an employer cannot understand why the immigrant no longer wants to stay in South Africa after a month or two. We can do a great deal more to help the immigrants who come to South Africa. The hon. member for Springs has already referred to the task which the 1920 Memorial Settlers’ Association is performing in this regard.

Finally, I want to put forward a suggestion. The department could possibly encourage some of our universities to render a useful service to the country by having a post-graduate study-inquiry, for the purposes of a doctoral thesis, made into the social economic political adjustment of the present-day immigrant in our country. In this way we could collect very valuable information. We would then be able to find out how the present-day immigrant in South Africa feels, how he adapts, how he develops further and whether he wants to become a citizen of the country and, if he does not want to become a citizen, why not.

Mr. Chairman, I agree with almost everything the hon. member for Brentwood said, but I am not quite sure whether I agree with what he said about the hon. member for Johannesburg North.

†I should like to touch on one aspect of the speech made by the hon. member for Brentwood. I refer to what he said in connection with employers. I myself was an employer in the engineering industry and I learnt from bitter experience what can happen to one at the hands of immigrants. I should like to direct an appeal to the department and the hon. the Minister on one aspect of immigration, namely the selection of immigrants. We all agree that the greatest need is for skilled immigrants. Those are the type of people we try to get. They are the type of people the industrialist requires. I had a bitter experience with the employment of boilermakers, for instance. Over a period of a year I employed a series of boilermakers not one of whom was really a boilermaker at all. The hon. member for Gezina spoke very emotionally about the department’s branch in Glasgow. Well, most of these so-called boilermakers came from Glasgow. They turned out to be riveters, platers or shipwrights but not boilermakers. At the time I was on the Free State gold-fields. It cost me a considerable sum of money to get these people there and to house them and then I found out that they were not boilermakers at all. I had a similar experience when I landed a large contract for decorative metal work. I required men and, with the aid of the Immigration Department, I got a man to fly out from Düsseldorf. This man turned out to be a complete fraud. Within a week he ruined stainless steel valued at over R1 000 which I had imported from Great Britain. That is why I say I know from bitter experience what can happen. I know that here in South Africa we have a very efficient set-up at Olifantsfontein to give artisans trade tests. Since the Department of Immigration has offices both in the United Kingdom and in other parts of Europe, I wonder whether some system cannot be worked out with out immigration selection committee whereby immigrants can be tested before they come to South Africa. When people apply to immigrate to South Africa they should do, these trade tests according to specifications laid down by local trade organizations. Then at least we know what sort of men we are getting. This man who came to me from Germany was supposed to be a skilled metal worker but it turned out afterwards that he borrowed his brother’s labour card to apply for the job.

In 1963 I was part of a team that went to the Low Countries and Great Britain to recruit skilled men for the Master Builders’ Association and for the Federated Chamber of Industries in South Africa. Since then I have always been interested in the recruitment of immigrants. On subsequent visits to Europe and to America I have always been interested in finding out why people immigrate to the United States and Canada rather than to South Africa. I found that the bias against us normally centres around three things. When I went to Europe in 1963 there were other factors as well. At that time there was trouble in the Congo which tended to frighten people off. There also was a lack of social security measures here but these measures have since largely been provided. Most firms today carry pension funds, medical aid schemes and some form of general security. In other words, this is no longer a problem, but in those days it was. The uncertainty as a result of the Congo was considered a definite problem in the Low Countries. Belgium and Holland. Subsequently, even last year when I was in Canada, for instance, I interviewed some immigrants who had just arrived there and some who were leaving. I asked them why they had chosen Canada. Some of them were very unhappy about Canada because Canada, as we have heard, is a very hard country; it is not a country everybody would like to go to. I asked them why they did not come to South Africa which is such a lovely country. They replied that they knew all about South Africa, that they had been to South Africa House and to the different immigration agencies and it appeared that they were frightened off by three factors. I may add that most of the immigrants I spoke to in Canada were Italians. As you know, Sir, Italy is going through a very bad period and people are emigrating as fast as possible. The Italians are very good workmen one cannot get away from that. Most of them feared, firstly, that Roman Catholics were unwelcome in South Africa. They genuinely believed this. Secondly, they genuinely believed that they would have to master two new languages when they came to South Africa before they could become citizens of the country. This was another problem. The third problem was that they would have to surrender their passports, which they were not prepared to do. They said to me: “We are not happy in Canada. We cannot stay here. The winters are too hard and so on, therefore we are going back and we still have our passports. If we come to South Africa we have to give the Government our passports and we can never get out again.” These are matters of omission rather than commission; the Department of Immigration must nail these lies—if they are lies—and rumours before people really get to believe them because in other respects the department is making a wonderful job of advertising South Africa. As the hon. member for Brentwood said, there can be no doubt that South Africa is the most wonderful country in the world. We have everything that any immigrant could want.

I agree with the hon. member for Jeppe that we must keep the people we have got. Perhaps we are not losing as many men as we are gaining but I feel that every man we lose is worth three or four immigrants because he is a South African—his roots are here, he was trained here, he has everything a South African needs or requires. We should not be losing such people. That is most important. Some of the people who leave South Africa are going to Australia. I have experienced this in my own family. The problem is that they feel there is no future for young people in South Africa. They feel insecure here. It is up to this Government to try to convince these people that there is a future here and that there is security for their children in South Africa.

Mr. Chairman, when I think back of the tough and heated debates on immigration which we have had over the more than ten years during which I have been a member of this House, and when I consider what happened this afternoon, when the Opposition only asked for an hour, then I must tell you that we have in fact made a great deal of progress in South Africa. I am very grateful to be able to say this.

It is because you changed your policy.

We want to extend our sincere thanks to the Opposition for their approach in this regard being the way it is. One appreciates that. Actually, it is much better for us to be able to discuss immigration in the way we have done this afternoon than to debate it in the way we so often did in this House in the past.

I should like to express my very hearty congratulations to the hon. member for Springs on his appointment as chairman of the immigration group on this side of the House, and on the splendid contribution which he made in this debate in that capacity, this afternoon. I also want to address a word of appreciation to him for the thanks and appreciation which he expressed to me and the department. It also gives us pleasure to think back of the many years during which the hon. member for Geduld, Dr. Jurgens, very competently served us here in that capacity. To him, too, we express our thanks.

In the course of my speech I shall try to reply to each of the matters which were put forward. The question of immigration is really an ebb and a tide. There is not the slightest doubt about that. Present in the whole process of immigration we find a push factor and a pull factor, a phenomenon that obtains all over the world. It has been our experience over many years that whenever the circumstances in Europe or Great Britain are economically or otherwise very favourable for the local inhabitants, it is very difficult to get people to emigrate to any other place in the world. If, on the other hand, there are circumstances making life difficult for the people over there, and if the circumstances in South Africa are favourable, we find that there is an increase in the number of emigrants. In this way 32 776 immigrants came to South Africa in 1972. In 1973, again, the figure dropped to 24 016 as a result of a variety of factors, all of which amount, however, to a combined push and pull factor. After the energy crisis had developed in 1973, after England had joined the European Economic Community, after factors in Europe and Great Britain had played a role and more favourable factors had come to the fore in South Africa itself, the position changed to such an extent that the preliminary figures now indicate that from January to June 1974, 15 794 approved immigrants came to the Republic of South Africa as against 11714 during the same period in 1973. The prospects for 1974 therefore seem very good indeed. Now I should just like to go into a few important matters of policy with regard to immigration. In terms of Government policy the Department of Immigration was established to recruit skilled manpower abroad for those occupations in respect of which there is a shortage of workers in South Africa and, on the other hand, to comply with the provisions of the Aliens Act, which requires that permanent residence in South Africa—this is a statutory provision—shall not be granted to any person pursuing an occupation in which a sufficient number of persons is already engaged in South Africa. Surely this is a basic principle, and one can understand it. I want to make it clear here that it has never been the Government’s policy to create through immigration a pool of unemployed people in South Africa from which employers may draw as they experience a need for workers. Any prospective immigrant must furnish the Immigrants’ Selection Board and my department with absolute proof that he is assured of employment in South Africa before his application to the Immigrants’ Selection Board can succeed. It must therefore be understood clearly that we have no intention of creating a pool of unemployed people in South Africa from which employers may draw as and when required.

I also want to make it very clear that it has never been the Government’s policy or objective to promote immigration purely for the sake of balancing numbers, e.g. for the sake of bringing about greater parity between the numbers of the Whites and the Blacks. This is an extremely important point which I am anxious to make. I do not want to indulge in politics here—nor am I going to do so—but it is essential for me just to point out that the main speaker of the hon. Opposition, the Sunday Times of 3 March 1974, stated very clearly in an interview on the importance of large numbers of immigrants that it and the United Party believed that the achievement of greater parity in numbers between Whites and Blacks was one of the best ways of reducing tension between races. I am compelled to draw attention to the faulty approach of such an argument. If one takes a really close look at this matter, one sees that it is extremely wrong to talk that way. I want to put this in even stronger terms: It is irresponsible to talk that way. I do not think this is wilful, but I do think that this standpoint is not a well-considered one. That kind of talk can in fact seriously bedevil the relations between White and non-White in South Africa. This will happen if the one section of our population is told that immigrants are necessary to strengthen the other section in the sense that greater balance may be effected in the numbers in South Africa by those means. But, what is more, to talk the way that hon. member is talking is like manna from heaven to South Africa’s enemies abroad, especially to those who are engaged in campaigns against South Africa in connection with immigration. Our enemies are using this very argument, i.e. that we are seeking to bring about a parity in the numbers of Whites and non-Whites in South Africa through immigration, to persuade people not to move to South Africa, because in doing so—this is the way the argument is used abroad—they would be taking the bread out of the mouth of the Black man in South Africa and strengthening the policy of separate development. I feel obliged to refer to these things, because it is harmful to us to talk about them in that way. Surely this must be very clear after all the years during which the Government’s policy in respect of immigration, its selective policy, has been applied this is precisely how the hon. member for Hillbrow put it when he referred to a “dynamic programme of selected immigration”. I can give him the assurance that the National Party Government is in fact offering South Africa such a “dynamic programme of immigration on a basis of selection”. But I say that through the years during which the National Party Government’s policy has been applied it must be obvious, surely, that an addition to South Africa’s corps of skilled workers is necessary for the essential economic growth and the development of South Africa’s potential, to the benefit of all population groups in South Africa, White and non-White, and that it can only lead to semi-skilled and skilled workers being trained to do work requiring greater skill. Any other interpretation of our policy is therefore wrong. What I want to point out in all seriousness here is that the time has arrived for this side of the House and hon. members on that side of the House, and that includes the Progressive Party, to speak with one voice in regard to this matter. It is in the interests of South Africa that we should do this, so that the world may know that we need immigrants in South Africa, skilled immigrants, to stimulate the economic growth and the development in South Africa. There is a need in South Africa for skilled people to stimulate that growth and development. That growth and development is, what is more, also in the interests of the non-Whites in South Africa, more so than in the interests of the Whites. In any case, it is in the interests of both Whites and non-Whites. If the hon. member is pleading, if the Opposition is pleading, “for a dynamic programme of immigration on the basis of selection”, then we in South Africa can make no greater contribution than to make it clear to the world that every skilled immigrant coming to South Africa is giving opportunities for employment to more than three non-Whites. That is the point, and for that reason we may not speak the way the hon. member did on 3 March, because I am telling you that this bedevils matters. I repeat that I accept that it was not that hon. member’s intention to speak ill. But he did not give the whole matter proper thought, and now I hope that we have really heard the end of that story because, truly, it is unnecessarily doing South Africa harm.

Then I want to refer, secondly, to the question of emigration. It has lately broken out like a measles rash and become fashionable to tell the world that this comes from South Africa. I almost feel like mentioning one specific reporter by name, for he has already written two such articles against us, but out of decency I shall not mention his name. However, if he does not stop doing this, I am going to mention his name at my convenience, because he is doing South Africa a great deal of harm. This hon. gentleman is not well-informed. He has never discussed the matter with me, nor has he ever discussed it with my department. What are the facts concerning emigration? I am referring to emigration, people leaving South Africa for countries abroad. We have a very fine picture to show in this regard. Let me put it this way. The fact of the matter is that there has been a constant decrease in the number of emigrants leaving South Africa every year; and now you must bear in mind that when we refer to emigrants, we include both South African-born and foreign-born emigrants, and the so-called brain drain to which the hon. member for Hillbrow referred is also included here. If we take it jointly, and this is in fact how the statistics are kept, we still have a very fine picture, and if any person says that we have here a flow of people from South Africa to countries abroad, this is a statement which is not substantiated by the facts and which amounts to absolute and downright nonsense. It is with ulterior motives that such nonsense is being sent out into the world. In 1970 we had 9 154 emigrants, people who left South Africa. This includes those born outside South Africa as well as those born inside South Africa. In 1971 the figure dropped to 8 291, in 1972 to 7803 and in 1973 to 6 290. There has therefore been a tremendous drop. Allegations such as the ones made here are therefore not true. However, there are two extremely important points which should also be taken into consideration.

A drop?

A large drop in the number of emigrants, yes.

The number of immigrants also showed a slight drop.

No, that is not true. In 1973 the number of immigrants did drop. Let me just say this to the hon. member over there.

It is the U.P. supporters who have become fewer.

In 1973 the number of immigrants dropped. That is true. But the numbers I mentioned to the hon. member a moment ago rose again considerably in 1974.

That is the first time.

No, that is not true. The numbers in 1972 were much higher than in 1973. That figure, too, I supplied to him a while ago. In 1970 the number was even bigger. The hon. member is therefore making a mistake in that regard. He can discuss the matter with me afterwards. The point I want to make is the following. For the period 1 January 1974 to 30 June 1974 the percentage of emigrants, according to the latest figures we have, was 22 as against 26,2 for the comparable period in the previous year. We must therefore display responsibility when talking about these things. However, now I come to the most important point of all. The number of immigrants born outside South Africa, i.e. persons coming to South Africa from outside and obtaining permanent residence here, is increasing every ýéar. Normally one would therefore have expected this category of emigrants to show an increase, but the figures point to precisely the opposite state of affairs. Out of the number of persons born outside South Africa, persons who obtained residence in South Africa through immigration since 1961 and were still living here in 1973, a mere 1,21% emigrated from South Africa in 1973. I think this is an extremely important fact and one which creates a splendid image of South Africa. Of the number of immigrants from other countries who obtained permanent residence here since 1961, only 1,21% left South Africa, i.e. for a country which they thought was better. In other words, almost 99% of the immigrants who obtained permanent residence in South Africa since 1961 thought so much of South Africa that they are still in South Africa today. In the light of the figures at our disposal, nobody can say that a large number of emigrants are leaving South Africa. If these stories are being spread by any person, here or abroad, I just want to say that they consist of absolute and unholy untruths which are merely aimed at prejudicing and besmirching South Africa’s good name through falseness.

Mention was made here of citizenship. The question of citizenship that was raised by various members opposite is as old as the hills. This question has been discussed thoroughly at numerous National Party congresses, and the department is paying attention to it all the time. Now, I do not want to drag in politics, but the Progressive Party really made me laught the other day. In the Diamond Fields Advertiser of 27 July 1974 they said the following—

The hon. member for Parktown, who apologized for his having to go away, made a plea in connection with the question of citizenship. He is therefore not aware of all the things happening in the Progressive Party. We forgive them, however, because they are still young and have only just started out in politics. They will probably find their own feet in due course. The question of citizenship is not such a simple matter. One cannot simply rise here and say that 10% or 13% accepted citizenship. This is a darned complicated matter. Let me just set out the basic points. If hon. members opposite want to disagree after they have given careful thought to the matter, then they must say so. We on this side of the House say that a premium should be placed on South African citizenship. We are proud of South African citizenship and we do not want to force any person this side of the grave to accept South African citizenship. If he does not want it of his own free will, then we say to him that we do not want him either. [Interjections.] That is quite correct.

That is a total failure.

No, that is not the case at all. I shall now say why not. The matter is not as simple as that. Do people who are so quick to say that we should force people to become South African citizens, that we should force people to accept South African citizenship through legislation or by other means whilst they are in no way interested in being South African citizens, realize with what problems we may be saddled then? Surely this is ignorance. It is not right to argue that way.

Nobody has suggested that.

But hon. members opposite go on saying that only 10% or 13% of the immigrants accept citizenship. Where the hon. members get those figures, one does not know.

We worked them out.

But the method according to which you worked them out, is strange to me [Interjections.] I do not wish to talk about the percentage now.

They worked out that they would also win many seats.

All I want to say is that one should remember that every person who comes to South Africa from another country, comes from a fatherland towards which he reveals love and attachment. If the receiving country were to force such a person, before he was ripe for it, to take out citizenship, that country would be creating more problems than it would be solving. I am speaking from experience now, because I have arranged immigrants’ camps for children, etc. I know what I am talking about when I say these things. We must therefore be very careful indeed not to force citizenship on people, because we are proud of our citizenship and we must have regard to this fact. When people accept citizenship of their own free will, it is beautiful to see, during the course of the ceremony, how those people, with tears literally running down their cheeks, renounce their old flag and swear allegiance to the new flag of the Republic of South Africa. A decent person does not find it very easy to do something of this nature. He finds it hard to do so. Our own people lived in Kanya for years, but they did not want to accept Kanyan citizenship. Our own people lived in the Argentine for years, and they did not want to do this. And now we are to force other people to accept South African citizenship. This simply will not work.

Finally, I just want to say this. The problem is a complicated one because there is an extensive system of so-called fringe benefits in Britain and Europe. There are pensions and all sorts of benefits which people over there can receive. There is just one thing which should be borne in mind by hon. members who talk about citizenship so glibly. Most of our new South Africans in South Africa receive pensions from Great Britain or from European countries. Such a person has to give up between R50 and R150 per month in income when he accepts South African citizenship. A person may perhaps have problems in a new country, and then I as a “big boy” of the Government come along and say: “You must accept citizenship!”, although we are not going to supplement his income. Surely I would be depriving him of something if I did that. I would be creating a problem for him in his home. After all, it is much better to have a sober and realistic view of this matter. The father in a family will perhaps say to his son: “My son, I do not want to lose R200 or whatever per month in income which I can receive until I die, but I want you to be a South African citizen.” In this way the son’s father and mother will persuade him to become a South African citizen. A pleasant atmosphere is created in this way, and the son feels that it will be a good thing for him to become a South African citizen. In such a case one does not make an enemy of that son. One will have retained him as a friend. Let the hon. members who talk about citizenship so easily and so glibly take a look at the number of immigrant children who have become full-blooded South Africans in the true sense of the word, even though their fathers and mothers who arrived here as adults never accepted South African citizenship. I am therefore of the opinion that the views held by the National Party Government on the question of citizenship are very sound, and I think it is wise to adhere to them in the interests of our new South Africans and in the interests of South Africa for the present and for the foreseeable future.

The hon. member for Parktown mentioned the question of religion. He made his apologies in order that he might leave earlier, and therefore I must talk about this matter in his absence. The question raised by the hon. member is very important indeed, and there should be absolutely no lack of clarity in this regard. I really thought that we had already left that question behind, but now I find that we have not yet succeeded in doing so. I want to point out that when I was still Deputy Minister of Immigration, I issued a statement on 7 September 1967, which reads as follows (translation)—

I reaffirm that this afternoon, and I really trust that we have now heard the end of that story. What pleasure do people take in making Protestants and Roman Catholics jump at one another’s throats—as it is done in Ireland—in a beautiful, sunny country such as South Africa? It is with the greatest conviction that I say that the Government is most definitely upholding this policy which I have just stated, i.e. non-discrimination on grounds of religion. Please, let this be the end of that story; I would appreciate that very highly.

Questions were also put to me on the selection of immigrants. This is a simple matter, and it is regulated by the Aliens Act of 1967.

No, 1937.

Oh, 1937. [Interjections.] Very well, the date is after all not as important as all that. That Act provides very clearly that permanent residence in South Africa cannot be permitted unless the applicant complies with the following requirements: He should be of good character he should be likely to become assimilated with the White inhabitants and to become a desirable inhabitant of the country within a certain period after his arrival in the Republic; he should not be likely to be harmful to the welfare of the Republic; and he should not be likely to pursue an occupation, in which, in the opinion of the board, a sufficient number of persons is already engaged in the Republic to meet the requirements of South Africa and its people. This is the gist of it. The Immigrants’ Selection Board is, as the hon. member requested, “flexible” in its approach, but certain standards must nevertheless be maintained, for since 1961 we have had costly experiences in this regard. The standards being maintained are the following: A person who has had trade training must have a Std. 6 certificate, and a person who has not had any trade training but wants to enter a business or, for instance, work in a café must have a Std. 8 certificate. These are, briefly put, the requirements laid down for immigrants.

I think I have now replied to all the questions. I want to extend my sincere thanks to this side of the House for their excellent contributions and also to the hon. members opposite for their contributions. I repeat that I think South Africa has made excellent progress in that it has been possible for us to conduct in this House today a debate on immigration in such a brief and concise manner. I hope that we shall go on doing so.

In conclusion I just want to express a last word of appreciation to our new South Africans. My experience has been—and I have statistics to prove this—that in general they are magnificent and excellent people who have been rendering a very important contribution to the welfare of South Africa over a period of many years and are still doing so. My appeal to the public is that we should welcome immigrants here in South Africa. Let us make life in South Africa pleasant for them as new South Africans and let us really show them our traditional hospitality in this respect. On a certain occasion Paul Kruger said (translation): “I place you as new immigrants in the care of the old citizens.” With these words I thank everybody who made a contribution to this debate.

Vote agreed to.

Revenue Vote No. 32.—“Sport and Recreation”:

Mr. Chairman, I am dealing with this matter personally because of the illness of the hon. member for Green Point and because I believe there are certain new initiatives to be taken in the sphere of sport. Government policy, based as it has been on either false or untenable hypotheses has tended to result in piling one illogical decision on another, one inconsistency upon another in a desperate attempt, I think hitherto futile, to try to escape from the cull de-sac in which it has been bogged down. It is no secret that there is division on the Government side of the House in respect of this sports policy. The evidence for this division is well known and I do not propose to enlarge upon it this afternoon, but I think it is against this background that we on this side of the House feel that a new approach is necessary to try to bring order out of the chaos which exists at the present time.

In advancing this approach we shall, as in the past, have regard to the principle for which we have always stood, namely, that sportsmen should in general be placed in a position to manage their own affairs. We recognize that adequate facilities for sporting activities and maximum participation by all sections of the community are essential to the development of a nation healthy in body and mind, and that participation in recreational and competitive sport at all levels creates friendships and promotes goodwill whilst also providing healthy spectator entertainment. A United Party Government therefore will assist financially and otherwise to ensure maximum opportunities for recreational and competitive participation in sport and recreation with administrators and trained instructors where necessary for the achievement of physical fitness and proficiency. We believe that the control and administration of sport must be left to sportsmen acting at all levels through their own elected bodies which should determine, without let or hindrance, questions such as the membership of clubs, the election of teams and participation in voluntarily constituted leagues and competitions. A United Party Government will take the necessary legislative steps to permit sportsmen to conduct their affairs in the manner determined by them in their discretion.

Professional sport will be controlled by the statutory boards of control established for the sport concerned. In the sphere of international sport it will be left to the relevant sports authorities to issue invitations and to select representative teams without political interference at any level.

What does this mean? I think it means, firstly, that we recognize the value and the importance of a Department of Sport and Recreation. We believe that it can be of use not only in promoting the mental and physical health of the nation, but also in promoting friendships and resultant goodwill, not only among all groups in a plural society, but also in the international sphere. I think it means, secondly, that where in the past we as a party were prepared to say to national sporting bodies that we would be prepared to accept South Africa being represented overseas at a national level by mixed teams, that we would be prepared for mixed trials to select those teams in South Africa, that we would also be prepared to accept mixed teams from overseas and would be prepared to see South Africa represented by mixed teams at a national level in South Africa, we believe that now the time has come to go further and that it has become essential to say to our sporting bodies that if they as national sporting bodies want to recognize mixed sporting clubs, or for that matter sporting clubs exclusive to certain races in their leagues and competitions we shall be prepared to see to it that the necessary legislative changes are made to make that possible. What would that mean? It would mean that if the national sporting bodies concerned decided that White and non-White clubs could play in the same league as exclusively White or non-White clubs, or as mixed clubs, we would take the steps to see that it was made possible legally. I believe that a development of this kind would open the way for truly representative trials and an easy selection of representative teams at a national level. We have already had examples where the hon. the Minister has allowed a Coloured South African football team to play against a White South African football team and a Black South African football team. In professional boxing we have already seen a White man fighting a Black man and we have seen a number of developments which lead me to believe that this is nothing we should fear in South Africa. I know that these proposals will involve some changes in the more ridiculous provisions of the Group Areas Act, provisions which I believe are already being interpreted far too widely. I believe that they will also necessitate certain changes in respect of the liquor law if the consumption of liquor has to be tied to sporting activities, something which I have never understood and which I have always denied. The liquor legislation is already the subject of an inquiry by a Select Committee. As the hon. the Minister knows, that Select Committee is giving attention to these very problems. I do not believe that the changes which we envisage would do anything to endanger the standards of our society.

There would also be a third matter to which regard should be had in this approach. Our approach means that in the field of international sport we recognize that not only can valuable personal friendships be forged, but also friendships between communities and communities as well as peoples and peoples. We feel that South African sportsmen should be given the fullest opportunity to take advantage of these possibilities, both for the sake of the standards of our own sport and for the welding of bonds of understanding with other nations. I cannot doubt that such a step would result in an improvement in our international image which would be of incalculable value to South Africa.

In making these proposals this afternoon, I believe that it is vital that the Government should give them proper consideration. I believe it is vital to the future not only of our international sporting relations, but also of the relations between community and community and race and race in South Africa.

Business interrupted in accordance with Standing Order No. 23.