Mr. Chairman, I request the privilege of the half hour. We have been informed that the hon. member for Algoa is going to act as chairman of the National Education group of the Government in the place of Dr. Otto, who is now a Commissioner-General. I want to congratulate him in that capacity, and we are looking forward to his contribution. We only hope that he has solved the problem with his other party colleagues in regard to the theatre in Port Elizabeth. [Interjections.] Since Dr. Otto is now Commissioner-General, we also want to congratulate him on it in his absence. We also want to tell the hon. the Minister that we learn from persistent rumours that there is also a possibility of his being promoted. We hope that if this were to happen he would inform us well in time, so that we would be able to take leave of him in his presence. In these times of change with courting couples on my right as well, I only want to say that since we had a debate earlier this year on the reports of the Commission of Inquiry to the Universities and matters relating to student activities when we discussed the concepts university freedom and autonomy, I want to point out in my speech today—I mentioned it on that occasion—that 90% of the activities of that commission of inquiry dealt with academic and organizational matters and that there is a large measure of agreement in regard to those matters. I am going to devote more attention to these aspects today.

†Before I do so I should like to appeal most earnestly to members opposite to consider seriously adopting a more realistic and perhaps more understanding and considerate attitude towards our English-language universities and students. Let us not always be on the look-out for points of conflict or for potential grounds of confrontation. Since we have had our various commissions, let us rather start with a clean slate and let us try to foster a spirit of détente between the state and the universities. If the Government which represents authority and if hon. members opposite who after all in the eyes of these students represent the real establishment in South Africa, were to do so, I am convinced that South Africa would gain greatly by it. The real lesson of the Van Wyk de Vries report is that there exist in South Africa two opposing views on educational philosophy. Although the commission expressed views to the contrary, I am satisfied that this in turn is based broadly speaking on two basic divergent philosophies and outlooks on life which exist in South Africa. Because of historical reasons, these two outlooks have the two main language groups as their respective adherents. These differences will not be solved by any number of commissions of inquiry. Neither by heated debates across the floor of the House nor by any threats. If, hon. members opposite would therefore, cease looking at our English-language universities as potential or possible breeding grounds of anti-South African attitudes and even subversion, and if they are prepared to accept the fact that legitimate differences do exist, they will be strengthening the hand of the hon. the Minister in bringing about cordial relationships between the State and the universities and will also be of immense help to the principals of those universities in their efforts to maintain discipline.

*It is gratifying to see that there is a remarkable increase in the financing of the universities this year. I think even a std. 6 child will be able to furnish the answer to this. It is on account of the application of a new financing formula as recommended by the commission. My information is that there is practically general acceptance of the formula. While the former Holloway formula, which was partly geared to or based upon study courses, was so complicated that the commission found that it often happened that even people dealing with it were unable to understand it properly, the new formula which is mainly based on the number of students and which also provides for the loading of students and a sliding scale, is far simpler. We also find that a distinction is made in the loading of students between pre-graduate and post-graduate students, and this is something we welcome. However, the fact remains that the number of students forms the basis of the new formula. I want to tell the hon. Minister that this is something which one accepts reluctantly for lack of any other practical alternative. I say this in spite of the fact that I am aware of all the technical guarantees which are built into the formula. Such a basis of the number of students necessarily entails inherent dangers. The greatest danger is that universities are tempted to admit an increasing number of students. You will appreciate what I mean when I draw attention to the fact that in terms of the formula all under-graduate students, including under-graduate diploma students are regarded as units. In this respect the formula places an enormous responsibility upon the shoulders of the university authorities. One can only express the hope that they will at all times fulfil their responsibilities towards the State, towards the students and towards the institution itself. As long as they do this, Sir, they will maintain the character which is associated with the highest tertiary level of education and will be worthy of the name of the university. Sir, the character of a university is to a large extent determined by the type of student which attends it, and whether that students has the required academic qualifications. It is therefore with concern that I noticed that at one of our South African universities, which I, for obvious reasons, do not want to mention by name but which I shall refer to as University A, the number not matriculated first-year students in 1973, exceeded the number of students with first-class matriculation certificates. At this particular university, which I shall refer to as University A, there were 1 803 first-year students in 1973, only 507, i.e. 28,1%, of whom had first-class matriculation certificates, while there were 567 not matriculated first-year students, i.e. 34%.

What do you mean by “non-matriculated student?”

The hon. member asks what I mean by “non-matriculated students”. Sir, we are discussing the National Education Vote now. I take it that he also received the report of the department. If he refers to the report, he will see the columns contained in it. Sir, I also appreciate that provision is made at any university for the enrolment of non-matriculated students on the basis of age, but these are normally insignificant as one will see when one compares this university with another South African university. In this case I can mention the name of the university concerned because it does not affect the university. In the same year, in 1973, there were 1 312 first-year students at the University of Cape Town. Of those 1 312 students, 735 had first-class matriculation certificates, i.e. 56%, and only 16 were not matriculated, i.e. an insignificant 1%. Even if you were to tell me that the non-matriculated students are extra-mural students and that they are regarded as a three-quarter unit according to the new financing formula, university A runs a real risk as far as its nature and character is concerned. Should this tendency continue, this university will still be performing an educational function—I do not wish to deny this—but it is obviously performing work on a large scale which should rather be performed at another institution, and this is the point we have to take into consideration.

The sliding scale attempts to meet the smaller universities. One should however accept that there are certain basic facilities which should be equal at all universities, whether the university is small or large, such as libraries, for example, and it seems to me, in spite of everything that is said in the report, as if the formula does not make adequate provision for this. Perhaps the hon. the Minister is aware of some criticism which originated at certain universities. Sir, seen from a purely financial point of view, the arguments in favour of larger and still larger numbers are, of course, valid, and I accept that there is a slowing down process, but I do feel—and this is the plea I want to make—that there should always be a place in South Africa for the smaller university where it is so much easier to maintain a character peculiar to such university. For the above-mentioned and also other reasons I want to tell the hon. the Minister that we should not bluff ourselves, but that we should realize that we will have to consider this delicate aspect again in future.

The proposal to convert the present ineffective university advisory committee into an advisory council on universities constitutes, next to the financing formula, the most important aspect of the recommendations of the commission. Before such a council is established, it will be impossible to give the necessary attention to the implementation of the other recommendations. The hon. the Minister was kind enough to inform me that it is the intention that legislation in this regard will be introduced during this session and I therefore leave the matter at that. However, I just want to say that since the commission found that the Minister or his predecessor did certain things in the past without consulting the committee of university principals in a proper manner, we, of course, expect and hope that we shall never have a recurrence of this again, but that, since we are dealing with the development of universities in South Africa, whether or not it is going to take place through a greater number of campuses, it will at all times be regarded as a joint effort on the part of all parties concerned, based on the largest measure of willingness and agreement and with a minimum of compulsion.

†I should like to pay further attention to the matter of teachers’ training. This was also widely covered by the commission. We have had an opportunity during the previous session to debate amendments to the National Education Policy Act, which dealt with this particular aspect. But it is, nevertheless, necessary for me once again to draw the attention of the House to the fact that the arrangement of 1969, the arrangement in terms of which it was thought that all forms of training for secondary education could be done at the universities, has in fact had a detrimental effect in some of our provinces in regard to the supply of teachers. This is a hard fact which we must accept. In regard to certain categories of teachers which the provinces used to provide, we in fact had a process of phasing out of the supply of that type of teachers, e.g. three year diploma teachers in mathematics and science, people learning to become woodwork teachers, and certain technical subjects. It is in these particular fields where we acted over-hastily and as a result have lost over four years a certain number at intake, and today this is a major factor in the shortage being experienced in some of our provinces. I am fully aware of the fact, however, that as the result of the 1974 amendment, there will in future be an improvement but the fact remains—and I want to draw attention to this—that the Government should accept its responsibility for this state of affairs. It is no good for instance for the principal of the University of Natal to say—and I quote from a report—that as far as he was aware the university had never refused to accept any student who wanted to be trained as a teacher. This is not the issue. The issue in fact is that the university was not in the position to offer the type of courses for these people to be trained in those fields. I want also to say to the hon. the Minister, and here I want to repeat what I said last year, that the concept of the college idea in regard to teachers training appeals to me but that we must accept that there exist certain pitfalls when we deal with it in relation to teacher training. I accept as valid the argument that colleges should not do the work of universities, but if certain universities are not careful they run the risk of becoming de facto training colleges while still doing some university work as well. If, therefore, we do not watch the situation carefully, we will soon be back to the position where we started—in other words, having colleges doing some university work. Apart from this, there are also other practical considerations which are educationally significant. One of the advantages to the provincial education departments in having teachers training colleges as integral parts of their establishment, is that it facilitates transfers and appointments of teachers as lecturers and vice versa. I personally know of people who during their careers had been lecturers at colleges, then they became teachers or principals. After that they joined the colleges as senior lecturers and finally became inspectors. The result is that those who are occupied with the actual training of teachers are constantly being kept in touch with current classroom situations. The people who immediately benefit from that type of situation are the students and ultimately of course our children, the pupils. This is something which will have to be sacrificed altogether if the provinces —this is the whole basis of my argument —were to lose all control over teacher training. I therefore believe that the hon. the Minister should, before doing anything drastic, first satisfy himself whether the present arrangement—I have in mind the amendments which were introduced in October last year—could not be made more effective through the proper functioning of the system of joint advisory and policymaking committees for teacher training between universities and the various education departments, as laid down in the National Education Policy Act. The hon. the Minister must first establish whether this cannot be improved upon or made to function better before he introduced anything drastic in this respect. I should also appreciate if the hon. the Minister could give us information on the current state of affairs even though these committees are appointed by the Administrators. However, in the final instance the hon. the Minister is responsible for the carrying out of the provisions of the National Education Policy Act and he should, therefore, be able to give us that information.

I wish to pay attention to the question of the shortage of teachers. I do not believe that it is necessary for us to hide behind the bush in this connection. I have here a report which appeared in The Star under the headline “Teacher crisis in Transvaal schools”. The very next day, however, there appeared a report in Die Beeld under the headline “Onderwys nie in krisis—Kotzé”. I do not believe that it helps us having these conflicting reports. We must accept that there does exist a teacher shortage in spite of last year’s salary increases. One is, indeed, disturbed to find that once again we have a teacher shortage. In the Transvaal it is manifesting itself particularly in so far as English-medium schools are concerned and in subjects such as mathematics and physical science and also in technical subjects. In Natal we also have a shortage of teachers in these subjects. It is a great pity there is such a shortage particularly in view of the fact that we have now commenced with a differentiated system of education which makes demands that such a situation cannot be tolerated. For instance, it is disturbing to know that not a single physical science teachers has graduated from the University of the Witwatersrand during the past three years. According to the principal of that university and of the Johannesburg College of Education that whilst about 600 English-speaking trainee teachers are needed only 220 have enrolled this year. Before hon. members should get back on to their hobby horse …

Whose fault is it?

Yes, there they start again with their old hobby horse of which I was about to speak. However, let me assure hon. members that English-speaking members on this side of the House have, since I have become a member of this House, made appeals to the English-speaking section to come forward to serve as teachers. A thorough investigation in this field is absolutely necessary. There are other members who will elaborate on this. All I want to say is that it is clear to me that there are, in fact, ways and means in which we can make the profession more attractive to young people. I know that it does not appeal to young people who want to become teachers to think that other professional men have, for instance, offices of their own while they will have to be satisfied all their lives with communal staff rooms. Principals and vice-principals are bogged down with administrative work. The approved establishment of schools make no provision for them to have administrative officers assisting them. I just want to point out that these are changes which must be made and if they are to be made we shall, in fact, have to have a revision of the subsidy to the provinces because without that the provinces will not be able to make provision for these posts.

I should like to concentrate briefly on the shortage of teachers in mathematics and physics. In this connection the writing has been on the wall for a very long time. In 1969 we had only 160 graduates in South Africa who qualified in mathematics, physics and chemistry and who wanted to become teachers. 86 of these were men. In 1974, five years, later, there were only 121 persons with these qualifications, of whom 58 were men. To this I must add the number of three-year diploma students who were lost by the provinces because they could not be trained.

*The shortage of natural scientists is not only limited to the teaching profession. Earlier this year Prof. Mouton, the vice-rector of the University of Stellenbosch, had the following to say to Die Burger (translation):

The shortage of natural science teachers gives rise to this state of affairs. Dr. Meiring Naudé, the scientific adviser to the Prime Minister, said (translation):

Prof. Zeeman of the University of Stellenbosch says that this university, this year, has 12 final year physics students, while there were 75 students 15 years ago. This university has the greatest number of physics students. The basic problem is that we have a shortage of properly qualified natural science teachers. Only 51% of all natural science teachers have two or more years’ training in their subject. In other words, 49% had only one year’s training. The result is that, because we do not have sufficient qualified teachers, the pupils do not receive proper tuition and rather follow other fields of study. If they do persevere with natural science studies they are not inspired and do not have a proper foundation. Before hon. members possibly want to crucify me for what I said in connection with the standard of natural science teachers, I just want to mention that these were the conclusions Dr. Meiring Naudé and Prof. B. P. Zeeman, head of the Department of Physics at the University of Stellenbosch, came to. According to press reports Dr. Naudé made recommendations to the Cabinet, and also that a committee was appointed, but we should like to hear from the hon. the Minister exactly what is being done in this regard.

In conclusion I want to say a few words about the SABC and its twin brother, or shall I say its “Broeder”—television. Since we last discussed the SABC, nothing has changed. The programme “Current Affairs” is still broadcasting its propaganda. The only new distinction we had, is that when it comes to sensation and exaggeration the SABC makes our newspapers look like greenhorns. During the Fox Street incident we had a good foretaste of this. Instead of exercising a calming effect on the people the SABC took the lead in working up panic. When I got home that night, it sounded as if “cops and robbers” was being played in my entrance hall.

Disgraceful!

It was not I who was the cause of it, but the SABC. How the hon. the Prime Minister could reprimand the newspapers in this House without mentioning a word about the role played by the SABC, is something which could cause almost every person a heart failure. There could possibly be a simple explanation for it—i.e. that it is not cricket to offend “Broeder” Piet. Whatever the case may be, we hope we are not going to have a recurrence of it. My plea is simply this, that it is justified and mat we can expect the SABC to act in a disciplined and calming manner in times of an emergency.

As far as television is concerned. I think the whole nation is relieved that they have started with test broadcasts. At this stage I do not want to say a great deal about the quality of the broadcasts, because they are, after all, only test broadcasts which are, from the nature of the case, regarded as magnificent by some people and as boring and mundane. However, I want to discuss the indisputable confusion which existed and still exists in regard a number of matters connected with television. In the first place, I want to know from the hon. the Minister whether he could tell us what happened to his promises of 1973-’74 that an advisory council on television would be established by legislation? I know the hon. the Minister said that the Broadcasting Act will probably serve before us next year and that we will have the most urgent amendments this year in the General Law Amendment Bill, but I want to know what the position is in connection with the advisory council on television. With reference to the confusion which exists, I want to tell the hon. the Minister that I accept that certain matters cannot be dealt with directly by him or by his department.

†The fact remains that in the final analysis the success or failure of television rests on the shoulders of the hon. the Minister. That is where the buck stops. One should therefore have expected the hon. the Minister to have adopted an attitude towards the other departments that although they may be minding their own business, the way they are conducting their business is ultimately going to affect his business. Apart from the fact that the hon. the Minister and the SABC are in the TV business to provide the country with a service, they are also in this business to ensure that this service is provided without bleeding the Treasury dry or burdening the licence holders with exorbitant prices and expenses in respect of sets and licence fees. In order to achieve this, it is the hon. the Minister’s business to ensure the maximum number of licence holders. Matters affecting the price of sets, regulations covering sales and renting and, for that matter, matters covering the erection of communal aerials in flats, are therefore matters where confusion, delays and dillydallying on the part of other departments should not be allowed. He should make his voice heard. Unfortunately, this has not been the case. Other speakers on this side will elaborate further on this theme. All that we are definitely sure of at this stage, is that as from next year South Africans will be having what is perhaps the shortest evening programmes at double the price. We are not even sure how short or long the service will be. We have had conflicting official announcements even concerning the hours of broadcasting. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, the hon. member for Durban Central expressed his congratulations in regard to the forthcoming wedding between the lovers over there on the other side. However, I want to begin by congratulating the United Party on the forthcoming wedding of their two runaway children. I should like to refer, too, to Dr. Otto, who for seven years was the chief spokesman on education affairs on this side. For many years Dr. Otto served education over a very wide field and we should like to wish him all of the best for the future in his new post. I should also like to refer to the fact that Dr. D. J. Brand, the director of the National Zoo in Pretoria, was recently elected to the post of president of the International Union of Zoo Directors. I think it is an outstanding achievement for a South African to be elected to such an important post, and in my opinion this constitutes international recognition for South Africa’s leading role in the conservation of fauna. The hon. member for Durban Central went on and made an appeal that we on this side of the House should adopt a more positive approach to English language universities in the future. The decision by the students of the Durban campus of the University of Natal to disaffiliate themselves from Nusas is to us a very positive action. This was a decision which undoubtedly took courage on the part of those students, to break the stranglehold on the English language universities of a group of leftist radicals, people who associated themselves with the enemies of South Africa. I believe that this marks the start of a new era, in regard, too, to the positive contribution the English language universities can make to a broad South African nationalism.

I want to refer, too, to the TV transmissions. However, I do not want to express an opinion on the test transmissions. I had an opportunity to go and take a look at the studios of the SABC at the TV studios up in Johannesburg. I can say without fear of contradiction that when TV is introduced next year, the South African TV viewer is going to get the very best image in the world on his screen as far as quality is concerned. The people who have worked and planned virtually day and night in preparation for this gigantic project certainly deserve our congratulations.

The hon. member for Durban Central adopted a far more positive approach today than he normally does. Perhaps the hon. member was still a little young, but the fact is that in the past he was too inclined to try and score other political points under this Vote. I am pleased that he was a little more positive today—except, of course, for his annual jeremiad about “Current Affairs” and the SABC. One can probably forgive him for continuing with that. However, I want to congratulate the hon. member on a more positive contribution and I trust that his colleagues who will follow him in the discussion of this Vote will be more positive and constructive, too. It is undoubtedly possible to be positive in one’s criticism as well. We in South Africa have so much to be thankful for as far as our education is concerned. In spite of bottlenecks, which I shall point out, and to which the hon. member too, referred, there is so much to be thankful for.

The past year was characterized by exceptional peace and tranquillity in the sphere of education, and yet every one of us must admit that the past decade in South Africa has been one of spectacular progress in the sphere of education, progress unequalled in any other Western country in the world. During the past eight or ten years the entire education structure in South Africa has been given tangible form and this structure may now be built upon with the greatest confidence. I could mention a few of the highlights of the past few years. For example, there is the introduction of the National Education Council, a statutory body which advises the hon. the Minister. I want to congratulate the hon. the Minister on the composition of the new Education Council. As far as I am concerned, it is a very well-balanced council including in its ranks first-rate experts, while the older members can provide continuity. The fact that there has been no criticism whatsoever of the composition of this Council in the newspapers, is an indication of the good work and the progress we have made in the field of education. Secondly. I want to mention the new dispensation in regard to education and training. Although there are still bottlenecks. I hope that this matter will be rectified shortly and that it will be possible to implement it in all its aspects. The third highlight was the establishment of six Colleges for Advanced Technical Education, establishments which have a vital part to play in our educational structure—making this an important highlight. I also want to mention the establishment of two new White universities, quite apart from the enormous expansion of our universities over the past decade. Then, too, there has been the appointment of the Van Wyk de Vries Commission on universities and the tabling of their monumental report, which will stand our universities in good stead for many years. Lastly, I want to mention the acceptance of a differentiated system of education, a system based on the aptitude and ability of every pupil. I believe that South Africa will find this system of differentiated education to be an enormous asset, particularly as far as the stabilization and conservation of its manpower potential is concerned. A research project which was carried out by the Human Sciences Research Council and which has just appeared, indicates that of the 69 908 White pupils in Std. 6 in 1965, only 26 000, or 38%, were in matric in 1969; not the number who passed matric, but those who were in matric in 1969. In other words, altogether 43 248 pupils, or 62%, either left school or dropped out and were left behind somewhere along the line between Stds. 6 and 10. The question is whether South Africa can afford this enormous loss, this enormous thinning out of its manpower. The answer is, of course, a thousand times “no, we cannot afford it”. How can we afford the phenomenon that 62% of our children drop out between Stds. 6 and 10? I believe that these figures point to an injustice being done, not towards a few pupils only, but towards an entire generation of pupils in the secondary division, because they have been compelled to enter a field for which, they had no aptitude: I say, therefore, that we should be grateful that differentiated education, through which this injustice is rectified, has been set in operation.

There are other reasons to be grateful, too, in our education. We can have appreciation for our entire teaching and educational structure, because it is based on our Christian and national philosophy that affords stability and certainty in a world of total confusion. We must have appreciation for the sound control and planning of our education by our education authorities from the pre-primary school to the university. We must have appreciation for the teachers, both male and female, and lecturers who perform the task of education with dedication and idealism of a high order. We must have appreciation, too, for parents, parent communities, parent/ teacher associations and school committees which, through their interest, sacrifices and financial contributions give impetus to education in their areas and towns, but above all we must be grateful that there is good order, neatness, good manners and discipline in our system of education and that we have not given in to the liberal systems of education to be found elsewhere.

Order! The hon. member’s time has expired.

Mr. Chairman, I should very much like to hear whether the hon. member is certain about when the new opera house is to be built in Port Elizabeth.

Mr. Chairman, I shall reply to that question asked by the hon. member in due course. I say that we should also be grateful for those of our young people who are prepared to subject themselves to this order and this discipline. Whatever is said or written about our youth in South Africa, I want to pay tribute to the young people of South. Africa here today with heartfelt gratitude and say that our youth is not only fine, clean and healthy in appearance and physique, but that the vast majority of our youth are also clean, upstanding and healthy in spirit. For this we have to thank our sound educational system based on our Christian philosophy and we are grateful for this.

In other Western countries the position is not so favourable. In the United States of America, the leader of the Western world, there is serious concern about the results of their so-called “liberal education system”. In this regard I want to quote what was written by Prof, Steven Kahn of the University of Vermont. He writes—

Still worse, Richard Walker describes conditions in the American high schools as follows—

In a West German newspaper, Kieler Nachrichten, we read the following—

These are only a few of the examples of the disturbing symptoms in the education system of the world. Without sounding Pharisaical, we can be grateful that the results of our education system are better. I believe that the results of the world’s education system are the results of the extremely liberalistic, irreligious system of education of the United States of America in particular and elsewhere. I think that in these circumstances we can be very proud of our educational system, the educational structure and the products of our education.

That is not to say that there are no bottlenecks in education, and I want to mention certain of the bottlenecks which, in my opinion, deserve urgent attention. Firstly, I want to mention the issue of the training of teachers, which one of my colleagues will deal with in greater depth. The existing legislation provides that teachers in secondary schools may be trained at universities, and I do not think that any fault is to be found with that. The legislation further provides that teachers for primary schools should be trained at college and at university, in close co-operation with each other. The problem is apparently that the term “close co-operation with each other” is extremely wide, and that everyone can interpret it as they wish. The Van Wyk de Vries Commission stated that the Act was totally unenforceable on this point. Whatever the position, this uncertainty cannot be allowed to continue indefinitely, and in my opinion a decision in this regard is imperative. My colleagues will elaborate on this point.

The three-term school year is another bottleneck. The Transvaal made a start with the three-term school year this year, whereas the other three provinces in South Africa have retained the old dispensation. It seems to me that they intend this situation to continue in the future. Whether the provinces regard this as a domestic matter or not, in my opinion the present situation cannot continue indefinitely. It causes a great deal of inconvenience to many people and is unjust, educationally speaking, to children who change provinces. The improved co-ordination of prescribed books and syllabi was a great improvement and was welcomed everywhere. But now we find this kind of thing, viz. that one province is on holiday while another has to work. I do not want to go into the merits of the matter. I believe that the three-term school year has its benefits, but I do not believe that the present situation should be allowed to continue.

Another matter which I think should be given serious consideration is the issue of foreign students at our universities. According to the latest report there were 3 900 foreign students at White South African residential universities in 1973, inter alia students from Rhodesia, elsewhere in Africa, Europe, America and elsewhere. I believe that a foreign student in England has to pay about R250 in additional student fees. Here in South Africa, however, no distinction is drawn between foreigners and South African citizens as far as student fees are concerned. It must be borne in mind that the State subsidizes every student to the tune of about R2 000 per annum. This means that the South African tax-payer is subsidizing foreign students in South Africa to the tune of R7 800 000 per annum. If these foreign students in South Africa are engaged in special research that could be of great value to us, or if they were to remain here after completing their studies and follow an occupation, then that would be a very good investment, and if that is the case then I should like to see us encouraging foreign students to come here to an even greater extent, but if these students come here with the aim of returning to their own countries on completion of their studies, or if some of them come here with other aims, such as pursuing subversive activities, then this would be a very unwise investment for South Africa. Sir, the Van Wyk de Vries Commission was unable to institute an investigation in depth into this matter, and I therefore ask that the Minister should consider whether a commission of inquiry could not be appointed to investigate this matter specifically, because in my opinion this is a matter that could enjoy urgent attention.

To conclude, Sir, I want to mention the last bottleneck as regards our education in general, as I see it, and that is the lack of co-ordination between the educational institutions on the tertiary level. Sir, I want to advocate a more effective organization of our education on the tertiary level. During the past 10 years, from 1964 to 1974, the number of students at our universities has increased from 50 000 to 95 834, including the White students of Unisa. There has therefore been an increase of about 100% in the number of students. During the same period, the State subsidies to universities increased from R17,8 million in 1964 to R106,6 million in 1974, viz. by 500%. This extremely Sharp rise in university expenditure is disturbing. There has been a further increase during the present financial year owing to the application of the new formula. There has been an increase from R107 million to R136 million. Sir, if there is no levelling-off in university expenditure, if there cannot be greater co-ordination between the universities, in other words the joint use of expensive equipment and even of expensive library material, then I do not know what university subsidization is going to amount to by the year 2 000, nor do I know whether the South African tax-payer will be able to meet this heavy demand. If one bears in mind that at the moment it costs the State about R2 000 per annum to keep a student at university, and if one also bears in mind that as many as 60% of first-year university students fail, then one realizes that a university is very much a luxury institution. It is an institution that should be attended only by students who have, in the first place, the will to study and in the second place, the intellectual ability to make progress, and who do not go there for the snob value. That South. Africa can no longer afford. Sir, if one bears in mind, too, that many of those who fail their first year simply disappear and obtain no tertiary educational qualifications, but leave university with only a matriculation certificate to seek employment, whereas the country is crying out for technicians and people with higher qualifications than matriculation, then one realizes what a reckless waste of manpower is taking place in this sphere. These people who fail at our universities may enrol for technical courses at our colleges for advanced technical education with great success and with good results and may then become very useful citizens. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, the education of one’s children is not a matter that one takes lightly, and therefore the training and supply of teachers is of national importance to us all. I cannot agree with the previous speaker, the hon. member for Algoa, that the training of people for the teaching profession has gained direction over the last 10 years. In fact, I feel that we have lost ground in this regard in the last four years, and this year we begin to reap the consequences of the cardinal error made by this Government in 1969 when the training of secondary school teachers was removed from the training colleges. The amendment to this Act last year came too late to save the situation. The universities, working in collaboration with the colleges of education, will not be able to commence teacher training in terms of the amendment until 1976 at the earliest, and the first flow of teachers under this amendment will not be available until 1979. That is why I say I do not agree with the previous speaker. What we now face is a drastic teacher shortage, and this reflects on our education system. Statistics show that in the Transvaal there are 400 men and 200 women teachers short. In Natal we have 100 teachers short. I do not have recent figures for the Gape and the Free State, but I do not doubt reports that there is a teacher shortage there as well. In this respect I should like to ask the hon. the Minister whether he could give us information as regards the data bank so that we can have recent figures collected for us. We also see that only one out of 10 White children can be accommodated in nursery schools in the Transvaal, and that in specific subjects, particularly mathematics, science, industrial drawing and biology schools are under-staffed. In other words, the position relating to the whole spectrum of White education from nursery school to matric is in our opinion very grave. I should like to refer specifically at the one end of the scale to nursery schools. Here children are in their most impressionable stage, and yet we find the least provision for them; in fact, Mr. H. L. Shipwell, the vice-chairman of the Nursery School Association of South Africa, remarked that a married couple has to register their child at a nursery school before it is conceived. That to me, Sir, is a deplorable situation. We see from figures published in the Transvaal that nine out of 10 children are refused admission to nursery schools; they cannot be accommodated because there are no facilities and no teachers, and those parents who are fortunate enough to gain acceptance for their children, have to pay up to R90 per child per term, and yet our primary and secondary schooling is free. It seems to me that nursery schooling should also be brought in under this same system. At the moment it is exclusive and expensive. In fact, Miss MacCrae, the principal of the Training College for Nursery School Teachers in the Transvaal, said—

I would appeal to the hon. the Minister to investigate the possibility of more funds being made available for nursery schooling. If one goes further up the educational ladder, the general picture is one of increased pupil enrolment against decreased teacher strength. The figures I have shown that between 1973 and 1974 the number of teachers in training decreased by 674, while over the same period the pupil enrolment increased by 942. But what is of more concern, is that in regard to this decrease we find more males than females dropping out. I know of one school in the Transvaal where five male teachers resigned at the end of the last term because they are disenchanted with the new three term system. Also you find there are more English-speaking than Afrikaans-speaking teachers being lost and finally that the training of teachers in specific subjects, like science and mathematics, is down to a mere trickle. The hon. member for Durban Central mentioned lust now that at Wits. University in the last three years not one science teacher has graduated. This is a very bleak situation, Sir, and for this deplorable teacher training position we lay the blame squarely at the Government’s door. Grave errors in judgment have been made in the past, and the country has to face up to this bleak future where possibly in the next decade pupils in specific subjects are going to have sub-average instruction, that the first-year rate of wastage at the universities which is already very high will become worse, and that the training for our manpower requirements will be inadequate at a stage where our economy is starting to make its greatest demands, it seems to me that the Government has embarked upon an almost suicidal education programme, and we would make the following recommendations in order to set this position right. We would urge the Minister, firstly, to remove the teaching profession from the Public Service Commission; also that be recognize the equality of the sexes in teaching; that he recognize overseas qualifications and that he acknowledges the colleges as the main centres of teacher training. I also ask the Minister to make a particular appeal to English-speaking South Africans to take up teaching as a career.

We feel that the establishment of a professional council, which has been urged by the United Party many times, will give status to the profession. At the moment teachers are being looked upon by society as necessary but docile pawns. Prof. Bozzoli recently highlighted this position in a speech in the Transvaal when he said that principals were leading a life of sheer drudgery. He felt that they were smothered in bureacratic red tape which all but cut them out from society generally. I know, for instance, that several years ago when the headmaster of Eton came out here, he was getting a salary of R32 000 per year. Our principals get R11 800. If this was improved, I think we would get more males attracted to the teaching profession and I should like the hon. the Minister to give us the reasons why he cannot agree to having a professional teachers’ council.

I should like to refer to another point, viz. the position of woman teachers. If one looks at the figures, one will see that 60% of the teaching profession comprises women; in fact, they are the very heart of teaching. I feel it is time that their indispensable role is accredited. They are not paid on the same scale as men; in fact, they are paid R300 a year less even though they hold the same qualifications and perform the same tasks. Housing loans and housing subsidies are denied them. I know of a spinster who pays R210 per month on her house yet a male with a higher salary gets away with R140. I think a breadwinner’s allowance could be introduced as it was in the past, but the principle of equal pay for equal work must be applied to women. Where you have a woman teacher whose husband is an invalid she is discriminated against under the present system of differentiated salaries.

We should like the hon. the Minister to examine the position of the recognition of overseas qualifications. We have the hon. the Minister of Immigration doing a great job in bringing teachers out here. He sells South Africa to overseas teachers and of all the professions, the greatest number of immigrants who come to South Africa are teachers. The latest figures are 424 in 1970 and 356 in 1971. However, when they come here; they find that their qualifications are not recognized. We want these people; we all know that teachers are generally people of fine principle and good character, unlike some political Baccaneers in that part of the House. [Interjections.] We should like this question of the recognition of overseas qualifications to be sorted out so that teachers do not become disillusioned when they get here. It is all very well that we maintain high standards; the standards of South African universities must be brought in line with those of overseas universities.

In conclusion, it is estimated that to safeguard our education, one in four matriculants will have to become teachers to meet our educational needs in future; We fee! that these points which we have recommended to the hon. the Minister could well help to ease this position.

Mr. Chairman, the hon. member for Pietermaritzburg North will excuse me if I do not react to his speech; some of my colleagues, and the hon. the Minister as well, will reply to it I only want to say that the hon. member also got stuck at the word in vogue these days, viz. discrimination.

One has cause to feel very happy when one looks at Vote No. 16—National Education—for which a total amount of R136 million is being voted. This time, there is an increase of R44 million, and R28 million thereof is for the universities. However, when one looks at the increase in the amount for the Colleges for Advanced Technical Education, one no longer fee’s so happy, because the increase there is only R2 million. From that we must draw certain conclusions. There are very sound reasons for the increase of only R2 million. The aid to universities amounts to R136 million, while that to the Colleges of Advanced Technical Education amounts to only R13 million. It is a state of affairs which surely requires attention in the future. Much more should be done for and much more thought should be given to the training at the colleges for the simple reason that these colleges are absolutely on a par with and parallel to a university. If we look at the technical staff which this country needs, we realize the necessity of looking far more searchingly at this matter. If we look at the need for engineers and technicians, as a result of the rapid growth and development of our country, we must admit that this need will increase steadily as the country develops and the population increases. This is a challenge for co-operation between the public, the universities, the Colleges for Advanced Technical Education and the Government. Very close co-operation will have to take place in this field. According to the manpower survey No. 10, there is a shortage of 1 054 engineers and 2 620 technicians. According to the Straszacker Report, the ratios of technicians to engineers is at 3 to 1. That is sufficient reason for us to keep pace with the population growth, the creation of work opportunities and the economic development of our country. That means that many more students have to be channelled to the six Colleges for Advanced Technical Education. The position is that these colleges will have to train at least 2 000 engineering technicians per annum to meet the need.

There are reasons for the shortage of engineering technicians in our country. The first is that the Colleges for Advanced Technical Education were established only eight years ago in terms of Act No. 40 of 1967. The courses at the colleges are still very new, because they were introduced only 14 years ago and, furthermore, we are also up against the stigma which attached to technical colleges in earlier years, a stigma which has been carried over to the Colleges for Advanced Technical Education. People thought a technical college was the place for the stupid child or for the child who could distinguish himself academically. That is definitely not the position any longer today. Unfortunately, there is a mistaken view that tertiary education and training can only be offered at a university, a totally mistaken impression which people have. The public is still extremely ignorant about the function of these Colleges for Advanced Technical Education and about the standard of the tertiary education which these colleges offer after the matriculation or senior certificate has been obtained. Another important cause is the fact that the status of diploma technicians is still not rated at its proper value in our country. There is still the mistaken view that a diploma technician and a tradesman are one and the same, but nothing is further from the truth. A diploma technician fulfils an extremely important function between the professional engineer and the tradesman and their services are becoming more and more indispensable to industry. I trust that it will be possible to solve this problem with the assistance of the report of the Goode Committee which, it is hoped, will be published soon. The fact remains that many more students will have to be channelled to the Colleges for Advanced Technical Education and that these colleges will have to be equipped to be able to accommodate the stream and will have to be enabled to provide technical training as effectively as possible. If the shortages of technicians in the engineering, chemical and medical fields, but especially in the engineering field, is to continue, they will assume proportions which will cost South Africa a great deal economically. A larger enrolment of students at the Colleges for Advanced Technical Education will have to be encouraged, and everything will have to be brought into play to bring this about. The question is, what can be done to overcome this problem. In the first place, much more attention will have to be given to the further development of the Colleges for Advanced Technical Education. Students will have to be selected in engineering. This will have to be done, especially by the Afrikaans universities, because they are rather reluctant to undertake a selection of this kind. Students who are not selected for university admissions, will have to be asked to attend a College for Advanced Technical Education. The same applies to medical students. First they are asked to do a B.Sc. degree at the university so that they have the terminological and other equipment to continue with medicine. In the same way, engineering students will have to be asked to go to a college for a year or so, and then to a university if their marks are high enough. If they get the necessary marks, they should be admitted to the university. Universities will have to have a far more objective approach in future to the admission of students who want to qualify in engineering. I want to appeal to our universities to be very objective when they select these students so that we can also channel students to the Colleges for Advanced Technical Education where they can qualify themselves far more practically. This is one of the important fields in which I feel a want exists today. In many cases, our education does not take practice into account, or let me rather say, it is not near enough to practice. The ideal is to eliminate the shortages which exist in technical education and also to meet the needs of our children.

Mr. Chairman, I shall not follow up the argument of the hon. member for Hercules, who has made a very good contribution to this debate. I should like to speak about children who have hearing impairments and draw attention to two particular aspects, viz. the need for the early diagnosis of their condition and the treatment of such children by making use of integrated facilities at normal schools. This is the first opportunity I have of addressing the House on this matter, and I only have 10 minutes. I would therefore like to deal with the points as briefly and as fast as I can. Hearing impairments have until recently been dealt with in a non-critical way. Children were divided into those that could hear and those that could not. Children suffering from hearing impairments were often judged to be deaf and sent to deaf schools. The position has now changed somewhat, and in many parts of the world a far more enlightened and scientific approach has now taken root with regard to these problems. I would like to make an appeal to the hon. the Minister and the department concerned to launch an investigation into this problem, to motivate action, particularly on the part of the various provincial education departments, and to co-ordinate these activities, people in the medical field, parent organizations and his department in particular.

The most important aspect in connection with children who have hearing impairments, is that the condition should be diagnosed as early as possible because treatment at the earliest possible stage has the best possible chance of success, thus assisting the child with the problem concerned. This is very important, indeed, from the point of view of the peace of mind of the parents and from the point of view of the psychological atmosphere in which the child grows up and develops. Unfortunately the various methods used in South Africa are as yet not sufficiently scientific or sufficiently well co-ordinated. This means that a large number of children in fact have hearing impairments which are not diagnosed until they reach a fairly ripe age. The diagnosis is also often inaccurate so that the treatment given is not the best treatment under the circumstances. The first requirement to my mind is that every child should, at the earliest possible age, be subjected to tests which will indicate any possibility of hearing impairment. I might add that this should apply to any other impairment such as dyslexsia. It should also apply to children with above average intelligence as they also require special treatment and consideration. In order to make this possible there must obviously be a uniform system which should be used throughout the country, a system which could be applied in all the health clinics to which children are taken and of which all medical practitioners in the country will be aware and, in particular, of which all parents will be aware. I would say that it should be mandatory as far as the parents and the State with all its agencies are concerned, that every child should be subjected to a series of tests at the earliest possible age to indicate the possibility of hearing impairments and any other impairment of a similar nature. That means that, in the first place, the system should be developed and established and that the country and parents as well as everybody else, should be aware of it. Where it is found that such an impairment exists, such a child should then be subjected to very specialized testing. The result of the testing should be properly evaluated and diagnosed. This is where a team effort is required, an effort involving medical people, specialists in the field of hearing, the paediatricians, educationists, etc. It is, however, essential that the best possible tests should be done, that the correct diagnosis be made and that the correct treatment for the child should be prescribed at the earliest possible opportunity. I might point out the fact here that the equipment being developed today is so sophisticated that hearing impairments can be detected in a child even at the age of one week. There is, therefore, no excuse for not detecting such impairment or disability in a child at a very early age.

The next aspect is the treatment of children who have hearing impairments. To date most children with hearing impairments find their way into schools for the deaf. Obviously these schools do a wonderful job and they are indispensable in the educational field. They should, however, be restricted to those children who are absolutely deaf and who cannot benefit from integrated training. They have disadvantages. The children there are isolated from their hearing peers; in other words, from those children who can hear. They are, to a large extent, isolated from society as a whole as well as from all the activities of society. This is very unfortunate indeed because it does not help or assist them to adjust to a normal life or to adjust to the people with whom they are going to have to live and exist for the rest of their lives. For this reason it has been found that children with hearing impairments can be treated on a basis integrated with normal schools by means of one or the other system to which many advantages are attached. The advantages are the adjustment to their peers who can hear, to society, to the activities of a society and to normal life. It is found that children who, particularly at an early age, have the advantage of contact with their peers who can hear, learn from them—by lip reading and by the comprehension of speech, or language —to speak properly and to communicate more effectively with other people. Special schools with special classrooms are required, but it is not a very big problem. Classrooms sometimes require soundproofing, sound amplification and articulation equipment. Teachers in these schools and classes are ordinary teachers who, by reason of particular abilities and a sense of sympathy, can be given the additional training which is required to make it possible for them to cope with the problems that arise. There can either be full integration in which the children who are hard of hearing associate directly with other children in all aspects of the school or it can be a situation where their hearing is of such a nature that they can only associate with the other children in recreational or cultural activities. It may also be that they can only associate with other children in respect of certain academic subjects. Whatever the case may be, the greater the degree of association and contact in the normal activities of a school between children that are hard of hearing and children that hear normally, the better it is for the adjustment, happiness and security of the children concerned. The system must be flexible. As the children progress or as further problems develop it must obviously be possible to move the children from fully integrated to partly integrated schools or back to schools for the deaf if necessary. I want to make the point that I believe this is already the case in South Africa to a small extent. There are integrated classes at schools in South Africa, however, not nearly on the same scale as in Britain and the United States where this problem has been tackled with remarkable and successful results. I do believe it is justified that substantial inquiries should be made by the department concerned into this whole field.

In making such an inquiry, they will have to establish the incidence of the various grades of hearing impaired children. They will also have to establish by means of research and investigation overseas, what facilities are needed and how these facilities and systems can be made available in South Africa. If the department makes such an inquiry and such systems are introduced in South Africa, one can look forward to a very much larger number of children, who would normally be isolated in school for the deaf, having the opportunity of attending integrated schools and hence growing up into normal, well-adjusted children. As a result of a far more positive and happier attitude towards life, they will also be capable of adjusting more effectively in later life to the society in which they move and the economy of the country in which they have to earn their living. I should like to make that appeal to the hon. the Minister. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, the hon. member for Bryanston touched upon a very important matter in education. However, he must excuse me if I do not react to that, because in the short time at my disposal, I want to express a few thoughts about teacher training.

The Constitution Act of the Republic of South Africa makes higher education the responsibility of the central Government Act No. 39 of 1967 declared the training of teachers to be higher education. Act No. 73 of 1969 envisages ending the lack of co-ordination and certification in respect of the training of teachers and enhancing the status of the teaching profession. The well-known section 1A(3) provides that the training of White teachers for pre-primary and primary schools shall take place at a college or at a university, and that the Minister, on a date determined by him, may provide that the training at a college and the university shall be provided in close co-operation with each other. This has appeared to be impracticable and not in accordance with the spirit of the above-mentioned three Acts. Therefore, there is still a stigma which clings to the training of primary teachers. It is also true that the dividing line between the supposedly superior people, i.e. the secondary teachers, and the supposedly inferior or primary teachers, is accentuated in practice; perhaps it is meant sincerely, but it is fact nevertheless. It is also true that even at primary schools, a dividing line is drawn between those who were trained at a university and those who were trained at a training college. The implementation of section 1A(3) must necessarily create a diarchy which will most certainly not meet with the approval of anybody who has any knowledge of teacher training.

To my mind, the system cannot continue in this way. I should like to mention a few reasons for saying so. In the first place, the above-mentioned bottlenecks must be eliminated. In the second place, the education of the lowest to the highest is a unity with variations. The universities are the recognized leaders in education in our country, and are necessarily also the leaders in education on tertiary level as a whole. Furthermore, it is most certainly important, too, that all future teachers, on whatever level, should be imbued with the same spirit during their training years, since they have to influence one another in the formative process in respect of the task which lies ahead for them in education. To my mind, they should also have the opportunity to associate with the rest of the students at the university and to integrate with them. There is a further reason why things cannot continue as they are at the moment and that is that the administration of all education in the country must be streamlined to a greater extend. The duplication of work must be eliminated.

Therefore, it is clear that a solution must be found. In the search for a solution, however, there is, to my mind, one special and important principle which we must face squarely, viz. that the basic premise in all consideration of teachers training is education itself and not the interests or the say of one or other body. To my mind, that is basic. I am not concerned about whether the colleges, which are under the control of the provinces at the moment, are failing in their task. In fact, there is abundant evidence of the good work which is being done by these colleges and of the good work which the teachers themselves are doing in the schools. I am more concerned about an effective system in which education, and therefore teacher training, functions as a unit. Against this background, I should like to endorse the recommendation of the Van Wyk de Vries Report and draw attention to the following with reference thereto, and state these things as my conviction.

In the first place, I want to say that the training of all teachers should take place under the guidance of the university, but in close co-operation with the provinces and with the Colleges for Advanced Technical Education, where at all applicable. This does not mean the training of all teachers should simply take place at the University. Subjects which are technical in all respects, and which consist chiefly of professional training do not belong at the university, but at the Colleges for Advanced Technical education. In the second place the training of secondary teachers should take place at the university, as is the case at present, but also with the idea that they may make use of the facilities which exist at the training colleges. The training of the preprimary and the primary teachers must take place by means of the college idea, as we find it in the Van Wyk de Vries Report; in other words, that the existing and the future training colleges be taken up into the structure of the university and linked to the university in a variety of ways. However, that does not mean that the existing colleges should be closed down or the existing campuses of these training colleges done away with. In fact, personally I should very much like to see that we accommodate all education students at a college in future and that the academic training of the secondary teachers be conducted by lecturers at the university as well as the lecturers at the training colleges if necessary, and vice versa as far as the pre-primary and primary teachers: are concerned.

Further to this, Mr. Chairman, I want to refer you to a report which appeared in Mondstuk, the journal of the Transvaalse Onderwysunie. In this report it is said that a questionnaire was sent out, which was completed by several thousand teachers at Afrikaans medium schools. From this it appears that 17,9% of the teachers replied that they should like to see that all teachers be trained at a university, and 39% replied that they would prefer the training to take place under the guidance of the university. Therefore. Sir, this means that 57% of the teachers in the Transvaal who are on the staff of Afrikaans-medium schools, voted for this education to take place at a university or under the guidance of such a university.

But, Sir, pursuant to this idea, I believe that an existing college should not necessarily be linked to a specific university, in spite of the fact that there might be geographical advantages, but that the linking up of a college to a university should take place after negotiation between the relevant university and the college, that the decision then be conveyed to the Minister and that the Minister then eventually take the final decision. Furthermore, Sir, I believe that the university should accept full responsibility for the academic, financial and administrative control of the relevant college, i.e. the training determined and provided by the university, whether the college is on the university campus or not. On the other hand, there is the possibility that the college could undertake the education and training itself, but under the academic guidance of such a university, and once again, it does not matter whether the college is on the university campus or not. The degrees or diplomas are awarded by the university and the academic control of the university is obtained by participation in the appointment of the staff, in the presentation of subjects and syllabi, and in the examination and moderation through the appointment of external examiners. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, I go along to a large extent with what the hon. member for Virginia has been saying, but I believe that it is still possible that there can be a higher degree of co-operation between the provinces and the Department of National Education in regard to the training of teachers. However, this is a matter which the hon. the Minister will no doubt deal with in some detail when he replies to the debate. There are one or two further matters that I wish to raise here this afternoon. In the first place I want to say how impressed I was by the speech of the hon. member for Bryanston this afternoon. In dealing with a subject with which we are all deeply concerned, he did so in an attitude of sweet reasonableness, which one can no doubt attribute to the fact that he was speaking here on the eve of the proposed wedding. But, Sir, one also realizes why his colleague, the hon. member for Sandton, is not here this afternoon. Over the weekend I thought I should have a look through last year’s debate to see what the attitude of hon. members was in the debate on education last year, and I found that the hon. member for Sandton, who followed the hon. member for Rondebosch, who is also unfortunately not in the House at the moment, had this to say …

They never are.

He said—

He then continued—

No doubt he was referring to the hon. member for Sea Point—

I raise this matter because it was raised in the debate on this Vote last year. I am sure I do not want to cause any ill-feeling between prospective in-laws, but I do hope that the opportunity will be taken by the hon. member for Rondebosch to explain how he can now take into the bosom of his family a man who holds views as were expressed in this debate last year.

I want to say that the hon. member for Durban Central has again this year raised certain matters which are based on his obvious knowledge and experience of the profession. Last year he raised the question of the status and functions of the National Education Council, and I want to deal with that briefly. Hon. members will recall that the Minister said that he was not obliged to consult, for instance, the Federal Teachers’ Council regarding the composition of the National Education Council and the legislation about to be introduced in this House. There were differences of opinion between the hon. member for Durban Central and Government members in this regard. I find it of great interest to read the official journal of the Transvaal Teachers’ Association, Mondstuk. In the issue of January 1975, which no doubt the hon. member for Algoa has read, the opinions of professionals makes interesting reading. The hon. member for Algoa tried to support the hon. the Minister. I find, however, that this journal of the Transvaal Teachers’ Association, referring to the speech of the hon. member for Algoa, has this to say—

That was the reply to the hon. member for Algoa by the professional teachers of the Transvaal. But they go on to say that there is one thing they must do, and that is to quote what was said by the hon. member for Durban Central, which really expressed the views of the teachers. I want to go further, however. The hon. the Minister also said that the newly constituted National Education Council would no longer issue a separate annual report. Sir, I believe this has happened now for 1974, but I believe it is wrong. The Minister said that the report of that council would be incorporated in the annual report. I have in my hand the last report of the National Education Council for 1973, an informative document covering many pages and many subjects, but what does one see in the 1974 report? One finds in the middle of this volume a chapter headed “National Education Council”. The first half-column and a quarter of the next column are taken up in giving the names of council members and thereafter there are a few small matters referred to in no detail or depth, and that is the end of the report of the National Education Council. I refer to page 57. The subject does not even take up two columns on that page. I believe that is wrong, because this council deals with a number of matters of great importance. I do not need to remind the hon. the Minister of that since he is no doubt aware of it. I can, however, report the information one gleans from the Press. Last month, in April, there was a report that certain matters were being investigated by the council. It was a report to the Press by Prof. H. J. J. Bingle, the chairman of the Council. He referred to very important matters. He referred to the fact that he wanted an urgent revision of the entire approach to education, with an emphasis on building bridges between race groups. He talked about the present White school system which did little to promote race relations, saying that special syllabuses should be introduced, and he ended up by saying that his council had 75 different subjects in mind to be laid before the executive of the newly constituted council. Now, I want to appeal to the hon. the Minister and say that this sort of thing cannot be dealt with in a subparagraph of the annual report of the Department of National Education. It is highly specialized and warrants a separate report from that council in the future.

One other matter I should like to raise in the time available to me is whether the time has not come for us in South Africa to be looking at the need and desirability of a university education so far as the population is concerned. I say this because the enrolment figures of 1973 show that 90 000 Whites, representing 2,25% of the White population, attended university, for Coloureds, 13% of the population, for Indians, 7% and for Africans, 04%, making an overall enrolment figure in South Africa of, 4% of the population. The hon. the Minister will agree with me that 2,25% of the population of any country receiving university education is a very high percentage. This education involves parents and the State in considerable expense. We should also bear in mind that in South Africa we have a large number of State bursaries. When one looks at this, one is tempted to go along with what has been said by the hon. member for Hercules. We must endeavour to establish how the available education facilities in South Africa can best be used in the interests of the economic development of the country. When one investigates the position, one finds that where there are restricted opportunities, in the sense that there is heavy competition to enter into a faculty such as medicine or engineering, one gets the best percentage of passes. There are a very large number of easy-access students who go in for arts courses at university. They do not have much difficulty in qualifying to get into the university and spend a fairly lengthy time at university. I should like to know whether the hon. the Minister would go along with me when I say that the time has come, since we are providing this expensive university education today, for us to have some system of assessing the needs of the country and the State for qualified persons in certain avenues of employment and then to have a quota system which can be extended, for example in the case of medicine if we need more doctors. The facilities for training medical men can then be extended while the facilities in other fields of education can be cut down if they are not so necessary. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, I have listened to the hon. member for Green Point, but unfortunately my time is rather limited today, so I shall not be able to reply to his speech. However, I think that the Minister will do so.

Before I come to the subject of my speech, I have two short questions to ask the hon. of the Progressive Party, the larger Progressive Party—or whatever form they will take after the marriage.

Your application has already been turned down, Daan.

Thank you. I should like to tell that hon. member that we shall have plenty of time next year, for I shall want to spend at least a quarter of an hour on him. He had better look cut for himself.

I come to my first question. On 2 May this year, the hon. member for Parktown asked the hon. the Minister the following question (Hansard. Vol. 12, Questions col 857)—

1. (1)
   1. (a) How many persons are employed on the writing of the official history of the Anglo-Boer War and
   2. (b) when was each of them appointed;
2. (2)
   1. (a) how many volumes of the history have been published,
   2. (b) on what dates and
   3. (c) what period of the war does each volume cover;
3. (3)
   1. (a) what has the cost been in respect of (i) the salaries or other emoluments of the authors, (ii) reimbursements paid to them for expenses incurred in connection with their work and (iii) printing and publishing and
   2. (b) what have the other costs been in connection with this work;
4. (4) when is it expected that the work will be completed.

I should like to know why the hon. member asked this question. [Interjections.]

Don’t you think it is interesting?

The second question I want to ask the hon. members of the larger Progressive Party is whether the question of “busing” is quite in line with the basic principles of their policy.

I come now to the actual subject of my speech. The interest of the South African public has been sharply focused of late on the universities of our country, particularly as a result of the main and second interim reports of the Van Wyk de Vries Commission. Then there has also been the University of the Witwatersrand, where an analysis of especially the second interim report of the Van Wyk de Vries Commission has been published under the title “Academic Freedom Committee of the Senate”. In the third place, we as members of the House of Assembly have received a letter from Professor Hamman about the question of initiation at our Afrikaans universities.

Various views are held with regard to the nature of a university. I think one should accept that there are two basic points of view from which universities are approached. The one is the liberal point of view, which includes a variety of people, each with his own view. There are the communists, who have a particular view of a university, the so-called broadminded liberals, who have a different view of a university, while the trendy liberals have yet another view of a university. As against this there is our own view, that of people within a national context who look at the universities in their communities and who reflect on what part universities are to play in them. For the sake of my own argument I want to say that a university, like many other institutions within a community, is autogeneric or has a distinctive character. One can identify it very clearly, its aspirations and its functions. But the university is not isolated from the community in which it operates. There are the relationships between lecturers and students, between parents and children, i.e. the parents of the students, as well as that between the particular university and the broader community in which it finds itself, and that community does not consist only of the local town or city with its local authority and interested groups. The university has ties with the business community and its diversity as well. Furthermore, universities have a special association with the State. From the reply to a question asked in the House on 11 April, we can see very clearly what the State’s contribution to the various universities is. For the University of South Africa it was 73%, for the University of Cape Town it was 77%, for the University of Stellenbosch it was 81%, for the University of the Witwatersrand it was 75%, etc. This is money which comes from the tax-payers and is used by the State for this purpose. For this reason a Government and an Opposition must ensure that they are very well-informed on what goes on at universities.

I come now to a letter which was sent to us by the principal of the University of Pretoria, in which he adopts a particular standpoint on the process of initiation at South African universities. I want to quote the following paragraphs from his letter (translation)—

If this had been said by someone else, it might have passed us by, but I think that when a man in the position and of the integrity of Professor Hamman, as principal of the University of Pretoria, a distinguished academic and a responsible leader, addresses such a request to us as members of the House of Assembly, we should give very careful attention to his standpoint and request. I think that we should give attention to the matter in the light and in view of the meaning of the concept of discipline, the original meaning as we still find it in Latin. It is very important, in the modern world in which we live, that discipline should be one of the corner-stones on which a civilization or a community should rest. Discipline, self-control and a sense of responsibility are in fact the foundation of any civilization. I think there are many problems with which the world will have to wrestle in the future. There are, for example, the problem of the population explosion and the problem of pollution. Whatever one believes in, in separate development, in federation or in qualified franchise, these remain problems with which the world will have to wrestle more and more. For this reason it is important for us to see this request of Professor Hamman within the whole milieu of discipline as far as the university community is concerned. In searching for a solution which will give us a state or a community which approaches the ideal as closely as possible, we shall have to request, too, that the lecturer as well as the student, therefore our responsible student leaders as well, should be consulted in regard to this matter. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, I shall not be following up the argument of the hon. member for Rissik. I think, however, that in future one could have a very interesting debate on the question why we never have problems amongst engineering students at our universities and that social problems are almost always encountered in the other faculties.

I do wish to comment, however, on what the hon. member for Hercules had to say about the training of technicians, of technical men. He pointed out a great need in South Africa for highly qualified technical men. I could not agree with him more. He also pointed to the alarming rate of drop-outs, according to the 1974 report we have been furnished with this year. We see that the drop-outs in respect of engineering subjects still average between 40% and 50%. We must bear in mind what it costs annually to keep a boy or girl at university in the engineering faculties. If these amounts are totalled up, they must, surely represent an alarming figure. AH this money is being spent while a lot of students eventually drop out from engineering and are lost to this particular field completely. In spite of the social problem, I think it is to this problem in the engineering faculties that we should direct our attention. The pity about these engineering students is that at one time they must have had an inclination for engineering, otherwise they would not have enrolled; they must have had either the aptitude or the inclination. But they then failed, because they are not able to master certain subjects, I suspect that mathematics is largely to blame. A lot of these students drop out altogether and leave the engineering faculty. They do not, however, go back to the technical colleges and they do not necessarily take up trades. They are therefore lost completely. In Great Britain, for instance, they have tried channelling the drop-outs from the first year of university back to the technical colleges, the polytechnics, but this does not work. One can bring them across from the polytechnics to the universities, but you cannot work it the other way. This is probably because of some form of snobbery. The idea of the hon. member for Hercules, that these boys should perhaps do a year at an advanced technical college, and that those who pass should then be admitted to a university, is an excellent one. It is this sort of system that has been adopted in America. I do not, however, think that the universities are going to accept this especially, as the hon. member for Durban Central pointed out, since the universities are now dependent in respect of subsidies on the number of boys who are enrolled at that university. They are therefore not very readily going to give up a number of potential subsidy-earners to the technical colleges and lose that source of revenue.

It seems to me that the only other method that we can adopt, failing the American method, which I still consider to be the best, is to have specialist engineering universities, much as they have. In America a boy can go to a State university for three years and after three years those who pass a certain course, or the best passes from that course can not necessarily all those who pass the course, are selected to go to one of the specialist universities of which the most famous are those in Massachusetts and California. There they become highly qualified engineers, the élite of engineers in America. I do not think that we in South Africa will be able to have specialist universities, but this would be ideal because they could then go from the advanced technical colleges to the specialist universities. But then again the technical colleges have a function to perform and I do not think that this is one of their functions. Their function is, of course, to train technicians or advanced tradesmen and this would be lost once they start acting as the weeding ground for universities. What is perhaps the most sensible solution, would be to appoint a coordinating council between the advanced technical colleges and the universities in order to work out some system by which they can try and reduce the drop-out rate. I would suggest that this should start locally. According to the report on page 33, I see that we have some co-operation already between the University of Port Elizabeth and the technical college at Port Elizabeth. The new technical institute is being built next to the University of Port Elizabeth and they are preparing to share different facilities like workshops and staff, because of their adjoining campuses. If this can be done there, then it could be done especially where there are two or three universities and one large technical college in an area. I would suggest that this coordinating council should seek ways and means to advise school-leaving children where they should go and direct them in their future studies. Here the differentiated system helps a great deal in showing where their aptitudes lie. Such a council could also facilitate movement between these bodies of boys from the technical colleges to the universities or vice versa. Credit for work done at either institution could also be given, so that they do not lose the time they have put in. I am sure that we can devise a method where we need not have drop-outs at all or where the boys who drop out can still be kept in the engineering trades or faculties.

The hon. member for Durban Central also referred to Act 39 of 1967 and the deleterious effect that it is having on the staff position in respect of technical teachers and trade instructors. By not allowing these people to be trained anywhere except at university, one is now losing a very fruitful source of staff. Many of the men who are in technical positions have come from industry. They are tradesmen who have studied hard, taken extra lessons and correspondence courses in order to equip themselves to become teachers. They have taken their teacher’s diploma or trade instructor’s diploma and now this avenue has been closed to them. I am, however, grateful to see that the hon. the Minister has given a two years’ extension for the correspondence courses. In future this will apparently not be permitted and these men will now no longer have that avenue open to them. It is very difficult for a man to go to university for a few years to qualify as a teacher in a technical capacity once he has become a tradesman, has married, probably has children, has incurred debts and bought a house. I think this matter should be looked into by the hon. the Minister because he himself points out in this report that, because of a shortage of trade testers at Olifantsfontein, we are now causing a log-jam in the number of artisans we can have in this country. If we cannot test them at Olifantsfontein, they cannot pass their trade tests, and it appears that we can no longer get men to test these artisans. These men are no more than trade instructors and they are not now being encouraged to take up the technical side of the trade.

Another matter I should like to refer to briefly—a matter which has already been touched on in this debate—is that of schools for the handicapped. There is wonderful work being done in this connection. There are 3 600 handicapped children in special schools in South Africa. I wonder if the hon. the Minister can tell us what is being done about employing these children once they pass out of school. According to figures I have before me, there will be 436 children passing out of Stds. 8, 9 and 10, or perhaps they have already left school. Where will they be employed? It is not every employer who will or can take a handicapped child on. Is some provision being made to employ these children? This is a very serious problem to parents of such children. I should like to suggest to the hon. the Minister that perhaps he should appoint a committee to investigate this matter to see where employment can be found for children from these schools.

Mr. Chairman, the hon. member for South Coast will excuse me if I do not react to his speech, for there is a matter I should like to deal with in the short time available to me. I wish to discuss pre-primary and primary teachers’ training and I wish to concentrate specifically on the Cape Province. Although I may seem to be adopting a point of view opposite to that of the hon. member for Virginia, I nevertheless wish to state my case with due deference, because my constituency could be affected very seriously with regard to certain recommendations which appear in the Van Wyk de Vries Report. I want to refer in particular to four findings and recommendations in the report regarding the training of teachers. Firstly, we have the finding that section 1A(3) of the Education Act cannot be implemented. That section, of course, provides that, from a date determined by the hon. the Minister, all training of teachers for pre-primary and primary schools will take place at a college and a university in close co-operation. Secondly, it is held to be a basic principle that the training of all teachers is an educational unit, in other words, that preprimary, primary and secondary training should form a unit. Thirdly, the commission found that all training of teachers should take place under university guidance and, in the fourth place, that this unitary training may be implemented by means of the “college idea”. That means that all colleges should be connected with a university, internally or externally. The latter recommendation implies the physical integration of all colleges with universities. Either the staff or the students will have to move to and fro. In the case of certain colleges in the Cape Province which are far removed from a university geographically, it will be simply impossible. The commission states explicitly in paragraph 16.28 that there may be cases where buildings and equipment cannot be used because of geographical or other circumstances. It further implies that serious questions may arise concerning the survival of colleges like those at Graaff-Reinet and Oudtshoorn and perhaps those at Paarl and Wellington as well. I want to say that primary teachers’ training has developed through the years in the Cape Province to provide for the needs of its people. Because of the vastness of the province it was physically impossible to establish all of these colleges in or near university cities, because we only had universities in Stellenbosch, Grahamstown and Cape Town at that stage. The University of Port Elizabeth was established later. Most of these colleges have a very long and proud tradition and there is no doubt about the fact that they are all very highly regarded because of the quality of the training they provide. The pattern which has developed in the Cape Province, that of fairly small colleges with about 400 to 600 students where a special relationship and personal contact exist between student and lecturer, enables all students to participate and to play a leading role in the social life as well as in the cultural and sports activities of the student community. It also creates a special climate and environment for teachers-to-be, which enables them to do justice to the particular needs of the primary pupil in respect of physical, intellectual, moral and spiritual development. The training in the seven colleges in the Cape Province is officially co-ordinated and continued by a provincial committee for the training of teachers on which the four universities in the Cape Province are also represented. For this reason the contents, nature, planning, composition, establishment of standards, examination, etc., are fairly uniform, also because of the control exercised by the provinces. Similarly, the Department of Education of the Cape Province has four permanent representatives on each of the faculty boards of education of the four Cape universities. So there are not only liaison and co-ordination, but at the same time there is cross-fertilization.

I wish to dwell briefly on the finding of the commission that section 1A(3) of the Education Act cannot be implemented. I have already mentioned the liaison which exists in the Cape Province between the universities and the province. The Commission of Investigation into the Training of White Persons as Teachers, called the Gericke Commission at the time, also judged that there could be close contact and co-operation between universities and colleges. In that regard that commission recommended as follows—

This has been implemented to good effect in terms of the Act in the Cape Province, and the Cape Joint Advisory and Coordinating Committee has been functioning very successfully for quite a few years. I may add that the Cape Province intends to expand this co-ordination and there is excellent co-operation between all interested parties.

Concerning the point of view that the training of all teachers is an educational unit. I just want to quote what the Gericke Commission said in this regard in 1968—

This is in line with the idea expressed by the hon. member for Virginia. I should very much like to endorse this view, but I also want to point out that with the application of national criteria for training courses, considerable uniformity of training has already been achieved as far as pre-primary and primary schools are concerned. I do not want to question it, but I only want to ask this question: Will the training of all teachers at universities be uniform? We know that universities insist very strongly on their autonomy. As a result of this autonomy, we could again have a fragmentation of training in this regard, unless proper control is exercised over it.

As regards the point of view that all training of teachers should take place under the direction of a university, I wish to say that what is very important to me in a matter such as the training of teachers is the quality of the training rather than the place of training. If the training at provincial colleges is poor or inferior, other ways will have to be found. I wish to quote again the view of the Gericke Commission in this regard—

Sir in the Cape Province it has been proved empirically by the fact that two of our largest universities have already discontinued the training of primary teachers.

Sir, the “college idea” has been propagated here, by the hon. member for Algoa as well. I want to suggest that if the college idea were to be carried to its logical conclusion, colleges like Graaff-Reinet and Oudtshoorn would not be able to survive. I want to urge that when we consider the implementation of the Education Act, we should take into account the progress which has already been made in the Cape Province with regard to contact and coordination with the universities. I think that we have made great progress in this regard. We are jealous of the training which is provided at our colleges in the Cape Province. I think that the standard of the training is particularly high and that we could very definitely cause great harm to the training of primary teachers if everything should be integrated with a university, especially where it is geographically impossible to do that.

Sir, I should like to congratulate the hon. member for Graaff-Reinet on his well-considered speech. Sir, since the National Education Policy Act and the Educational Services Act were placed on the Statute Book in 1967, there has been great activity in the implementing of these Acts in almost every sphere of education. The commendable progress which has been made testifies to the tactful but strong leadership of the hon. the Minister, as well as to the goodwill of all educational authorities in cooperating to implement a national educational system in practice. If the great many facets of education involved in this matter are taken into consideration, then the progress which has been made is indeed remarkable, both as far as scope and also as far as efficiency is concerned, and one admires all the parties concerned for their exceptional rate of progress under the leadership of the hon. the Minister. But, Sir, one of the most important tasks which still awaits us is in my opinion the determination of the correct place for extramural activities in all their facets in our entire educational process and, arising out of this, the protection of the principals, teachers, school committees and other school authorities against the juristic liability which may result from the performance of their tasks in this regard. Such juristic liability may arise when a teacher conveys pupils in a private vehicle, pupils, for example, who have to participate in extramural activities. This involves not only the teacher, but also the principal, for the principal is usually the person who has to direct the teacher to convey the pupils to the specific extra-mural activities. Unfortunately I do not have the time now to go into full details, but I simply want to draw attention to this matter which has been causing concern among the teachers for years now. This concern is crowing, so much so that the SAOU and the SATU recently obtained a legal opinion in regard to this matter. However, the concern is not only confined to the Cape, although the SAOU of the Cape made this matter the subject of discussion at a congress last year. The concern extends over the entire national sphere of our education, and to such an extent that research in this regard is now being done through the medium of the Federal Council of Teachers’ Associations of South Africa, and a legal opinion has also been obtained. The dreaded juristic liability I am referring to is of course not confined only to teachers who convey their pupils in their own motor cars or in other private vehicles; it extends much further and includes those school authorities who acquire school buses for the conveying pupils to their extramural activities. From the legal opinion it appears in the first place that a school committee is not a body corporate. It is very important for us to realize that the legal opinion which was obtained, made it very clear that a school committee is not a juristic person. Therefore a school committee cannot have a vehicle registered in its name, and such a school committee cannot obtain valid third party insurance either. In short, it means that it is therefore not the legal owner of the vehicle. This means that individuals become involved, for since the school committee is not a body corporate, the principal or the members of the school committee usually have to intervene and have the vehicle registered in the name of an individual in order to take out third party insurance.

I want to advocate a thorough investigation of this matter, and if it should subsequently appear to be necessary, action on a national level. I do not want to anticipate such an investigation, but it will quite probably be necessary to make certain statutory adjustments. I am thinking now of two laws which will quite probably have to be looked at, namely the Motor Vehicle Insurance Act of 1972 and the Motor Carrier Transportation Act of 1930. If it consequently appears to be necessary to amend these laws to accommodate this matter, one could eliminate problems which may arise in future. I am simply mentioning this as a possibility. But before any resolutions in this regard are adopted, it is very important that the educational departments get together and give thought to this question of extra-mural activities. They will have to decide whether or not they are going to regard extra-mural activities as an integral part of the normal school set-up. If extramural activities are an integral part of the normal school programme, teachers may be compelled to participate in these extramural activities, and then such a teacher ought to be protected, and ought not to be exposed to juristic liability for things resulting from his participation in these extramural activities, because pupils are entrusted by their parents to the care of the teachers, and if a pupil should be harmed, the legal position at present is that the teacher is juristically liable. One should like to prevent any problems which may arise in this connection in future. If this is not the case, and the educational departments were to decide that extra-mural activities are not an integral part of the schools activities, then such a teacher knows that he cannot be compelled to expose himself to possible claims for damages. To me as a parent and as an ex-educationist, it is almost inconceivable that extra-mural activities should be excluded from the normal programme of a school, for educationists have agreed that it is the task of the schools to educate the whole child, for it is after all the whole child who comes to school.

Mr. Chairman, I shall not react to the speech by the hon. member for De Aar. He touched on a very specific point which, as it seemed to me, he felt strongly about. The hon. member for Rissik put a question to me and I shall reply to it with pleasure. The answer is “no”. The hon. member for Green Point made a reference to the Progressive Party which, is going to merge with the Reform Party. Sir, listening to all the remarks made, that party sounds to me like an old bachelor who can no longer find himself a girlfriend. One should therefore listen to all the remarks with patience.

I should like to come back to the whole problem of the present shortage of teachers. Various hon. members on both sides of the House have already referred to this and quoted specific statistics in this regard. In my opinion there is no doubt that we are all aware of the seriousness of the situation. I think one should also be aware of the fact that a shortage of teachers in a society is not merely something that is transitory; it is not merely a fortuitous phenomenon. I regard a shortage of teachers in a society, and particularly in a developing society such as South Africa’s, as a danger signal. I should like to say a few words about this shortage in a more general sense. It is not my intention to look at the educational structure itself from within and to indicate a few areas here and there where something could be done to improve the situation. I should prefer to look at the role played by education in a society and to say why I regard a shortage of teachers as a danger signal. It is a danger signal for the simple reason that it indicates that in that society —our society is not a mature, developed society, but a developing society—there is an economic vicious circle is operative, in the sense that skilled labour is being drawn away by industry. Teachers comprise one of the most important categories of skilled labour; they are attracted to industry, with the result that the demand for skilled labour is rendered more acute since the teachers are no longer available to train skilled labour. Why does this vicious circle occur? The first point I should like to mention is the fact that the State, with its education department, simply cannot compete with industry in terms of salary scales and employment opportunities and benefits. The challenges or the claims of the economy are such that in a country with an economic structure based on the private profit motive, one will find that industry will naturally take the best labour. The second point is that in the educational institutions themselves, an over-concentration takes place in certain fields of training over a long period. For example, one finds an over-concentration of students in the social sciences or in some other field of study.

As a result one eventually has the situation in which there is an over-supply of certain forms of labour which simply cannot be absorbed by society. This is one of the reasons for the shortage of teachers, because the teachers are the very ones who train those people. If there is no supply of students in a certain field of study, there will not be teachers in that field of study either. There is an outstanding example of this difficulty in Nigeria, where for years they followed a system of education which ultimately gave them an unemployable elite, as it were, which then became the section that was most dissatisfied and that created the most problems in that society. This occurred precisely owing to the fact that the educational structure in that society was not orientated to the needs of the society in the labour market. But there is yet a third and perhaps more serious reason for the shortage, and that is the fact that an artificial shortage is being created which is related to the structure of education itself. A factor I have often mentioned before, a fairly emotional one—which I do not want to go into now, but will just mention in passing—is compulsory mother-tongue education. This creates a shortage for the simple reason that there must be duplication. I do not want to make a political issue of this and am merely stating an objective fact. It is a fact that a teacher teaching a subject can educate children across linguistic boundaries, but if one has to duplicate education in terms of Afrikaans and English, this creates a shortage. Whether this is politically motivated or not, is another matter. Another factor that also plays a role is the dogmatic attitude of the Department of National Education in regard to degrees, diplomas and certificates for people who qualify for education. I think this point has already been mentioned by the hon. member for Durban Central. People from abroad who want to come and teach here represent one method of alleviating the shortage. It is unnecessary that a man should have to have specifically at B.A. degree with an S.E.D. from a South African university. There must be some other way in which, one can test such a person, determine his aptitude and pay him accordingly in education. I think that in this way the shortage could be coped with to a certain extent.

Another problem is the whole issue of duplication. This is a problem that always interested me at the university level while I was still attached to a university. I was never able to understand why there should be a physics department, for example, at every university, or why every university should have an engineering faculty. In this way an artificial shortage is created. Facilities have to be duplicated for all those institutions and then again at all those institutions there is a shortage of suitable staff and they have to attract students for training. Given these circumstances and shortages, there is an urgent need for coordination of all existing educational structures in South Africa with a view to the availability of manpower; and an effort must be made to effect some streamlining in order to contend with the situation.

My time has expired, but I should just like to put one last question. In the department’s report it is mentioned that the new subsidy formula for the universities will come into operation shortly. I want to ask the hon. the Minister how soon a university will know when it is going to get the new subsidy. From personal experience in the administrative sections of a university I know that it can create enormous problems for a university if it does not have a clear idea as to when it will receive its subsidy.