Sir, I want to react to the speech of the hon. member for Rondebosch. The hon. member spoke, inter alia, about the duplication of activities at schools and at universities. Sir, it reminds us of the idea which has crossed his mind, viz. the duplication of the activities of two parties which they want to bring together under one cloak in order to be more effective. I do not want to make any predictions, but I want to tell the hon. member I think he will be taken to task by Harry.

As regards the matter of duplication in education, I should like to point out to the hon. member that in terms of the new differentiated education policy, in terms of which our education is divided into zones or into comprehensive units, provision has already been made by the hon. the Minister for certain fields of study covering specific subjects to be offered in certain schools within these particular comprehensive units, for the very purpose of utilizing the services of teachers in a more meaningful way. For example, it may happen that schools A, B and C have pupils who want to take Latin as a subject, but not one of these schools has a significant group of pupils who want to take this subject. Where this is the case, arrangements have been made to allow these pupils to enrol for that subject at School A, for example, and also for them to share in the privileges of provincial or private bursaries for board and lodging. As far as the duplication of faculty services at the universities are concerned, we may just point out that we are faced by the following problem: As activities are being centralized at the universities, larger groups of students are being grouped together. In some fields of study, for example, the natural sciences, it is just not possible to accommodate very large groups of students, because the faculty then comes up against problems with regard to practical classes and examinations and research. It is also desirable, and this is our endeavour, to have smaller groups of students for each lecturer or professor, with a view to bringing about direct contact and more effective training.

Sir, I recently took 11 advertisements from a newspaper, advertisements inserted by firms advertising jobs and inviting applications. In these 11 advertisements there was one particularly interesting aspect, viz. that the quality of the person required was emphasized and not his qualifications. The words which were emphasized in the first advertisement were that the person had to be progressive. In other advertisements they were looking for people with idealism, hard-working people, people with diligence and drive, people with initiative, lively and intelligent people, people with devotion to duty, neat and mature people; and the last advertisement reads that only responsible and sober people need apply. Not one of the advertisements in this series of advertisements required candidates to have a Std. 8 or matriculation certificate or a degree, but they must certainly have the ability to do the job. These qualities they specify in writing in these advertisements, are not mentioned in the candidate’s certificate, neither in his school certificate, nor in his university certificate. These qualities are inherent in the personality of the applicant.

I am the last person who would say that the school or the university is the only body which creates conditions for a personality to develop. But we could say that at present the pupil spends about 80% of his life, from his first to his last school day, in the immediate vicinity of the school and the staff. Therefore it probably is one of the most important facets in the moulding of these workers, that underlying quality which makes man a complete being. To embody and realize that, we need people in our schools who need not only be educated people but people with the special ability to create in our children idealism and the desire to strive after ideals. We need people who will awake the knowledge in those children that they are creatures of God and have a purpose on earth, and that they have to realize the seriousness of their existence every day in that phase of development.

For this task we need teachers who can work with these children in a spirit of cherishing great expectations of life. We have problems with our recruiting. I am able to quote to you statistics relating to the Transvaal, which I have at my disposal. The recruiting of candidates at the end of 1974 for enrolment in 1975 resulted in 570 applications from Afrikaans-speaking males and 111 from English-speaking males. Applications from females were somewhat more, viz. 1 111 from Afrikaans-speaking females and 266 from English-speaking females. That gives us a total of 2 058 applications. As against this, the number required for 1979 is 4 060. We received 2 058, in other words, approximately 50,7% of the number required. This gives us an alarming picture.

I do not want to bring this matter into the political arena, but we should be failing in our duty if we did not take up the matter with our English-speaking section of the population in a serious and particular sense. Sir, I can make a quotation from a speech by the rector of the only English-language teachers’ training college in the Transvaal in which he pointed out this problem.

Whose fault is it?

It is your fault for not going back to your people to motivate them to participate in the education of the nation. [Interjections.] It is your fault that your people are interested mostly in profit, but there is no profit in the teaching profession. The profit lies in the development of the child. You should return to your own soil and speak to your own people and motivate your own sons to become not only bankers, etc., but also workers in the field lying fallow in respect of the education of the child. [Interjections.]

May I ask a question?

No, I have ten minutes only. Sir, I just want to quote the words of Prof. Boyce (translation)—

[Interjections.] I shall invite that hon. member to my class a little later on and teach him a lesson. He says the home language of approximately 30% of the teachers at English-medium schools in the Transvaal is Afrikaans.

You must read the rest of his speech. Do not only read that specific part of it.

I have the whole speech, here. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, I shall not follow up on the arguments advanced by the hon. member for Standerton since he stated his case very clearly. I want to confine myself to one aspect of our national education policy, namely the present system of final examination or evaluation of the work of standard 10 pupils. It is necessary for us to form an idea of the position in regard to the examination of our std. 10 pupils today. In spite of the fact that we have joint basic syllabuses for all our pupils country-wide, we nevertheless find that there are no fewer than nine examining bodies. Despite the fact that syllabuses are basically the same, nine bodies do the examining. These bodies are the four provincial departments of education, the Departments of Bantu Education, Coloured Relations and Indian Affairs, the National Department of Education and the Joint Matriculation Board, which compiles its own examination papers. It is true that whereas we have all these examining bodies, the examination papers are checked and moderated by the Joint Matriculation Board, which has wide and extensive powers. Their function is, in particular, to exercise control over the university admission examination and the school-leaving examination. However, it is natural to ask how they do this. How does the Joint Matriculation Board carry out the work of checking and moderating? In the first place, they do this by means of very careful checking of the syllabuses of the subjects offered to candidates, subjects required for matriculation exemption. In the second place, joint moderators are appointed by the Joint Matriculation Board to ensure that these examination papers conform to standard. In the third place there is an education statistics committee that compares the examination statistics and reports to the Joint Matriculation Board. However, it is, in the nature of the matter, very clear that owing to the large number and variety of examining bodies, it is virtually impossible, if not entirely impossible, to ensure that the standard of the examination papers set by the various examining bodies is the same. In fact, judging from a synoptical comparison of the examination papers for the final examination at the end of last year, it is evident that there were very major differences, inter alia with regard to the method of setting the papers, the stressing of certain important aspects of the work and even the awarding of points.

Another consequence of the variety of examining bodies is the confusion caused by the large number of certificates issued for the same examination, viz. the final examination for std. 10. For example, there is the Cape Senior Certificate, with or without exemption, the Free State school leaving certificate and the National Senior Certificate, with or without exemption, etc. Apart from the problems of maintenance of standards and the variety of certificates issued for the same examination, the existence of a large number of examining bodies also gives rise to a tremendous amount of waste. Nine examining bodies presuppose nine sets of examiners, nine sets of moderators, nine sets of examination papers and in fact, as the Van Wyk de Vries Commission calls them, nine “examination empires”. In this regard let me quote an extract from testimony submitted before the Van Wyk de Vries Commission by a senior member of the Joint Matriculation Board—

I want to make an earnest plea on this occasion that for the sake of our education system in the Republic, we institute a very penetrating investigation into the possibility of a uniform examination system for our std. 10 candidates at the end of their school careers. I know that there are problems. For example, there is the problem of the differing sets of textbooks used in the various provinces. But is it really justifiable for each province to have its own set of textbooks? After all, those books are provided by the State. When a transfer of the school population takes place, viz. when children are transferred, it means that they have to obtain a new set of books in the new province. But there is another problem, too. I am aware that owing to the activities of the Human Sciences Research Council, the system of the so-called examination question banks has been introduced. Standard examination papers are set which will be at the disposal of the various teachers and teaching staffs throughout the Republic. My contention is that although this system of examination question banks is a step in the right direction as far as ensuring equal standards is concerned, this in itself attests to the need for uniformity. This system of examination question banks can only really serve its purpose if we have uniform final examination papers throughout the Republic. I am convinced that whereas we already have a joint basic syllabus and system of differentiated education throughout our country, the logical outcome of this will be that there will be uniform question papers for all Std. 10 pupils at the end of their school careers.

Mr. Chairman, I am pleased to have the opportunity today to say a few words under this Vote. Today I want to raise a matter which is very near to my heart. I refer to the handicapped child in this country of ours. However I should like to convey my sincere thanks to the hon. the Minister. I also want to convey my sincere thanks not only to his department, but also to the Department of Public Works and all the departments which have taken a hand in building the fine Elizabeth Conradie School in Kimberley. It is a model school. I think it is the only one of its kind in the world. Hon. members would do well to take a look at the photograph of the school in the report of the Department of Public Works. This school meets our requirements to a high degree. We want to thank the Department of National Education. We know that it took a great deal of hard work on the part of the hon. the Minister to establish this school. However, I believe that his predecessors, too, contributed substantially towards the fact that this school exists today. Whoever may have been responsible for it, I believe that I am speaking on behalf of everyone in this House today when I express my thanks in this regard. At the start of my speech I said that this matter was one that was very close to my heart. I say this because I am directly involved with it. I have a very good understanding of the circumstances of these small children. This school is a model of its kind. It is a monument that has been erected. However, I want to make an appeal later that more such schools be built. However, this school meets a great need. This school meets the needs of many Afrikaans-speaking, English-speaking, Jewish and Portuguese children. I want to appeal to people to work there. There is a shortage of labour in these schools. Whether remuneration is responsible for this, I do not know. I do know, however, that there is a shortage. The people who work there have to be specially trained for a specific task which they have to perform. I want to make an earnest plea in this House this afternoon that people apply for work there. They can go and teach there, or work there as matrons or nurses. These young children rise early in the morning. They are not normal children. Between five o’clock and half past six, while the normal children are still in bed, these young children have to rise in order to perform their daily chores themselves. Whereas normal young children usually take ten minutes to brush their teeth, bath and get dressed, it takes these young children between an hour and an hour and a half because they have to do it themselves. I do not know to what I should ascribe the shortage of assistance at these schools. If the remuneration is the cause, these people must be paid the necessary salaries, because they are not simply ordinary teachers. They are specially trained teachers who have to perform a special task. Those people have to act as teacher, nurse and psychologist, because here we are dealing with people who are handicapped. Best of all is that among these children one finds that some who have brilliant minds but who are so handicapped physically that life is very difficult for them. I want to address an appeal today to the business world, the Government and the Railways to provide for these children. One day, when they matriculate, there must be certain transport facilities at their disposal. It is the duty of every South African to see to these cases. Once again I want to express my thanks for this model school and I want to make an appeal to everyone in this House to go and take a look at the Elizabeth Conradie School at Kimberley.

Mr. Chairman, I have an appeal to make in regard to another school as well. I think the hon. the Minister will probably know which school I am going to refer to now. It is the Hope School or Hope Institution in Johannesburg, situated in the constituency of one of the hon. members of the Progressive Party. I believe that I shall receive the full support of that hon. member, and that he, too, will appeal to the inhabitants of Johannesburg and tell them that the time has come for another school to be built for those children. When I say this, Sir, you really must not misunderstand me; I do not want to derogate from the wonderful work that has been done so far by that Hope Institution and the staff attached to it, to the benefit of thousands of young children. My own child was in that institution for 12 years, and I have only praise for them. She started there when she was a little girl of three years old and left that institution when she was 14 years old. She is now at the Elizabeth Conradie hostel. Sir, I want to pay tribute to that school which has done wonderful work, but the time has come for us to build another school similar to the Elizabeth Conradie Hostel on the Witwatersrand, for the benefit of all sections of our White population. Sir, I have already said that that school has done wonders, but it is situated on a koppie. It looks like one of those castles one sees in pictures of Spain. We are dealing here with crippled children who have to help themselves, and they do not have playgrounds or recreation areas. Their facilities are reasonable, thank goodness, but they are very limited and cramped, and my plea today is for everything possible to be done in order that another school may be built. I say to the department: Let it cost what it may; we, this rich country of ours we boast about so, owe it to such people. We have a great deal to say about preparedness at all levels in our society. We must also be prepared to help these children, and when I say this I am referring both to these young children and to the parent who has to bear that burden till the day he dies. We must make life pleasant and happy for these children, too, and, bearing in mind all the things in life which he misses, we must strive to ensure that the child entrusted to the care of these institutions can enjoy the small pleasure of having an open area where he, too, whether he crawls, sits in a wheel chair or walks on crutches, can also have room to move. I believe the hon. the Minister will agree with me that notwithstanding the fine work it has done in the past, this institution no longer meets today’s requirements. I want to make an earnest appeal, therefore, that all the departments concerned give this matter their urgent attention. This is a private institution which is partly subsidized by the State and it is an organization that has done wonders, but the time has come for the world’s golden city to provide a better place. Every person who is able to do so must contribute, just as contributions are made in order to establish any university, to enable the Government to provide improved facilities for those children in the near future. Sir, it is your child and mine who could be there next. I want to point out, too, that although this institution is an English one, its inmates are, for the most part, Afrikaans-speaking children. I therefore appeal to the Government to be the contributor towards the establishment of a new school in Johannesburg.

Mr. Chairman, I should like to associate myself with the various speakers on both sides of the House who paid tribute to Dr. J. C. Otto for the work which he did as chief speaker on the Government side on educational matters. I should also like to associate myself with the previous speakers who congratulated the hon. member for Algoa who will act as chief speaker on the Government side in future. I obviously listened with interest to what he had to say. I am very glad that he delivered his first speech in his capacity as chief speaker on the Government side on such a positive note. He actually took as his theme those aspects of our education set-up for which we can be grateful. He mentioned various particulars and was very positive, something for which I am grateful to him. I think that he made one incorrect presupposition when he spoke about bottlenecks, and I should like to correct it immediately. He departed from the premise that those pupils who do not reach matric “disappear”, as he put it. I do not think that he kept in mind that they do not really disappear, because the large percentage of them become apprentices. Some of them become productive in the economy of the country by accepting some form of work or other, therefore, they do not really disappear. However, I am very glad that the hon. member was so positive, and I should like to wish him everything he needs to be able to bear the new responsibility which has been placed on him.

The hon. member for Algoa also referred to the new Education Council. I should like to associate myself with what he had to say and sincerely thank the outgoing members of the previous Education Council, who did very useful work under the guidance of Prof. Thom for so many years, for what they have achieved. Then, together with the hon. member for Algoa, I should also like to convey my congratulations to Prof. Bingle and the new team. While the hon. member for Green Point was speaking about the Education Council, I hoped that he would also congratulate them, but perhaps this merely escaped him, because there was, in fact, no criticism in the Press and in this debate about the Education Council as it is composed at the moment.

Should it ever be necessary that a testimonial be written for our educational setup in South Africa, I think that this debate served that purpose. We have really had a positive debate. I do not want to say that we reached such heights as those which I have previously held in prospect, viz. that we should have a really penetrative discussion about education. However, this year we had a really positive debate for the first time in many years. I should like to thank the hon. member for Durban Central for the contribution which he made here, because he really went about it positively this time. Obviously he raised points of criticism, but that one expects from him. Nevertheless, his approach was in a completely positive spirit.

After this introduction, I want to say that our education set-up in South Africa is as good and effective as it is in any comparable country in the world and that it is something of which we can be proud and for which we can be grateful. Our education set-up is sufficiently comprehensive to offer every child—and I mean literally every child, regardless of his aptitude and his interest, regardless of the degree of his competence or the degree of his handicap— an opportunity to enjoy education and to equip himself for the demands of life. The results which we gain in our education system, enable our sons and daughters, as has been proved over and over again, to hold their own against the sons and daughters of any other nation in the world and, what is more important to be useful and productive citizens of our country in South Africa. That is something for which we can be sincerely grateful. In recent years we have made good progress with the co-ordination on a national basis of those aspects of education provided for in our education legislation. We are still proceeding in that direction without trying to force a lifeless uniformity into our education system in the least. It is interesting—the hon. member for Standerton who was interrupted such a great deal that he was unable to complete his speech, also referred to it— that we have already made such progress with the application of our national co-ordinated system of differentiated education that the education departments of Transvaal and Natal which have been applying the system since the beginning of 1973, will sit for the final examination in accordance with the new system for the first time this year. Just as education has been conducted on two levels for the past three years, so examinations will also be held at the end of the year on two levels, viz. a higher and a standard level by these departments. Hon. members already know that the requirements for admission at our universities are also differentiated and therefore, we shall have a far better and more comfortable transition between schools and universities in future. Hon. members must not think that the other education departments have fallen behind; they merely began a year later with the introduction of the system and will also sit for the final examinations at the end of 1976 in accordance with the system of differentiated education.

Having said all that, I just want to emphasize that there always has to be and will be adjustments in education. The importance of this statements is that the adjustments may not take place on the basis of trial and error, but that what is done, must be educationally based and applied expertly and judiciously. In this debate we have continually had positive criticism, and that is valuable. We always need it, and I shall always welcome it. Therefore, I should like to express my gratitude at this stage to all the speakers—to whichever party they might belong—for their contributions to this debate. Unfortunately, it is true—and I want to refer to this in passing—that we have sometimes had a different approach in the past and that some of our newspapers have still not succeeded in getting away from this completely. We have seen that some of the Opposition members are still very touchy about this aspect. I refer to the incident when the hon. member for Standerton made a completely justified statement, and to the reaction which it drew from the hon. member for Sandton and the hon. member for Pietermaritzburg North. I want to say here, to get it off my chest, that there were times in education when eminent politicians on the Opposition side lent themselves to making a political matter of education, when they spoke about educational matters. I merely refer to one statement which the hon. member for Yeoville made in 1970, in the year that there was an election. He is a man who did not hesitate—hon. members know him as an outspoken person —to climb on to the platform in 1970 in the Transvaal and to say that there would be 30 000 pupils without teachers in the Transvaal after four months. If one sucks such a statement out of one’s thumb, then one is not serious about education, because then one is playing politics with education matters, and this I regret. In the meantime, he has changed his political party, but I want to tell him that his present colleagues played the same role. In that same year, an organization was founded on the Rand, the Parents’ Action Committee for Education, of which the secretary was a Mrs. Jammy. Mrs. Jammy is very well-known to hon. members who sit in the back-benches of the Opposition. Sir, they wanted to serve the cause of education, and we all welcomed that, but I ask you whether we ever heard anything from them again? There was silence until there was talk again of the crisis and a shortage of teachers. But, Sir, I leave it at that. This debate, as I have said, has been conducted on a much more positive note and I leave the matter at that.

I should like to deal with a few aspects in connection with the problems which have been mentioned here. In reply to a question, I have already said that I receive representations from the English Academy of Southern Africa, which is concerned about the fact that there are not sufficient suitably qualified teachers, particularly for the scarce subjects, but particularly because they are not English-speaking teachers who can teach in the English medium schools. This is a very important matter. The hon. member for Rondebosch referred to that matter and said—and I agree with him— that if a shortage of teachers arises in a developing community, this is a serious danger sign. I want to tell our English-speaking citizens in all fondness that they should take to heart what the hon. member said. If we cannot get our own ministers of religion and our own teachers from our own ranks, then this is a sign of danger. We must produce our Own people to carry out these tasks for us. These representations led to our recruiting teachers abroad. Sir, I want to tell you that the recruitment of teachers abroad is not such a novel idea; it is an idea which has repeatedly been advanced previously and which has been put to the test already. I must also say that it is a system which has often come in for the most severe criticism from those people who make use of those imported teachers. Therefore I say that we should not simply accept it as a solution for our problem, because experience of the past has shown that these teachers who have grown up in different circumstances, who have been trained differently from our people here, who had to cope with other challenges, do not feel happy about settling permanently in South Africa, and that many of them could not make the grade either, because their views about discipline, etc., differ from ours. There are many of them who did not complete their term of contract. I also want to tell hon. members who think that the importing of English-speaking teachers from abroad is a solution for their problem, that private schools in South Africa and certain church organizations as well, have many problems with this very matter. They import people who very seldom adjust themselves and give satisfaction to such an extent that one wants to entrust one’s children to them. My department often receives applications from overseas from prospective teachers who want to come here. Those applications are channelled by me to the education departments, who are the actual employers. But not many applicants for these scarce subjects present themselves. Most of the applicants are people who have subjects in fields of study where we do not have the shortage of teachers.

I want to emphasize one more matter. If these organizations are thinking of recruiting teachers overseas themselves or drawing teachers as individuals themselves, they are moving in the wrong direction. The education departments in South Africa will not allow private organizations to recruit teachers and employ them in our schools who do not satisfy the high demands we set in South Africa. The Committee of Heads of Education has prescribed the criteria for the training of teachers, and all teachers are trained in accordance with the requirements which they impose. I think the education departments would be foolish to deviate from those high criteria which, have been imposed. In any case, how can one weaken or lower one’s criteria in respect of people whom one recruits abroad, and impose higher demands on one’s own people? I think the hon. member for Durban Central will concede this point, because he knows what is at issue.

The hon. members for Durban Central, Virginia and Graaff-Reinet spoke about the training of teachers, because it is a very important matter which is, of course, related to the alleged shortage of teachers. I say an “alleged” shortage of teachers, because there is not a crisis in education, as one often reads in the newspapers. There is a shortage of teachers in certain scarce subjects, but there is no general shortage of teachers. Let me tell you that this shortage in the so-called: scarce subjects is not a shortage which developed yesterday or the day before or a few years ago; it is a shortage which we have had for many years. The hon. members for Pietermaritzburg North and Rondebosch think one can simply import people, and the point which the hon. member Tor Pietermaritzburg North actually made, is that the training of teachers at universities for the high schools is supposedly the cause of a shortage of teachers in the scarce subjects. That is the statement which the hon. member made and, of course, he is not alone in holding that opinion. Dr. Richards, the chairman of the Witwatersrand Council for Education, made the same statement in a letter which he wrote to me. I want to tell hon. members that anyone who makes that statement, is guilty of a serious over-simplification. If this problem was as simple as that, one could probably have solved it easily. This shortage, I say, has been with us for many years. What are we doing in this connection?

Therefore, I want to say something more about teacher training, to which the hon. members whose names I have mentioned, have already referred. It has been stated here, I think it was the hon. member for Algoa who said so, that the Act provides— and that is the legislation which existed when I took over the portfolio—th.at high school teachers can only be trained at universities, with certain exceptions which the Minister may make and, in the second place, that teachers for primary schools and the pre-primary schools can be trained at universities or training colleges and, from a date which the Minister may determine, in close co-operation with one another. Obviously there were various problems in the implementation of this policy, and I have had to deal with those problems from the outset. Various bottlenecks arose and I came to this hon. House on more than one occasion to amend legislation to make it possible for us to obtain co-operation between the universities and the training colleges of the provinces or the universities and the colleges for advanced technical education. Only last year I introduced another such a Bill, and then I did not get all the support which I had hoped I should get from hon. members on the opposite side. But we have eliminated the bottlenecks; that matter has got under way well and we are making good progress. But the second point is: What is close co-operation? Nobody could tell me precisely what was meant by “close co-operation”. Therefore, I sent Professor Thom, the then chairman of the National Education Council, on a tour of the country. He visited every university and education department and discussed this matter extensively and thoroughly. He subsequently drafted a well-founded report to me, from which it was clear to me that we had a wide spectrum of opinion, as the hon. member for Algoa said, in the words of the poet: “So wyd soos die Heer se genade” (“as boundless as the mercy of the Lord”). It ranges from a loose, superficial mutual recognition, on the one hand, to joint training, on the other hand. Professor Thom’s report indicated quite clearly that, if one regards teacher-training as a unit, one cannot actually implement that legislation, unless one establishes two autonomous bodies alongside each other to conduct that training. The Van Wyk de Vries report which appeared afterwards, pointed out precisely the same bottlenecks, viz. that the Minister will be obliged to create a diarchy because the Act does not indicate what the direction of the training of teachers for primary schools should be. After I had dealt with this matter for a long time, and consulted many people and bodies I formulated certain proposals which I laid before the Administrators, as the Act requires of me, for their comment. I believe that comment has now reached my office. It is not comment which one can give in a day or a week, but it is something which one has to study, because one must state and motivate one’s standpoint about it. That comment has reached me, and I shall make a study of it. We shall see if we can advance on the basis of the proposals which I presented as a basis of discussion as well as the comment which I have received from the administrators.

I should like to tell the hon. member for Graaff-Reinet that he need not worry about the continued existence of the training colleges at Graaff-Reinet, Oudtshoorn, Wellington or Paarl. We do not intend to close the colleges. If he is concerned about the status of the Graaff-Reinet College, I can assure him that the possibility is not excluded that the college may be given a far higher status in the new set-up. However, I do not want to bind myself to any standpoint which has been adopted.

The hon. member for Virginia gave an excellent exposition of a fine idea in a very short time. The hon. member for Durban Central also told him that the idea which is incorporated in the Van Wyk de Vries report impressed him favourably. If that is the attitude among educationalists, we can really develop a system in the course of time which does not affect anyone detrimentally, but will be best able to serve the cause of education. In this connection, I should like to quote to members a few sentences from Mondstuk, the journal of the Transvaalse Onderwysersvereniging, from the May 1975 edition. I want to emphasize what I want to quote for all hon. members who will go home from here and may have to deal with these problems. Mondstuk writes (translation)—

I should like to emphasize this and with that I leave the matter of teacher training.

In proceeding, I should like to reply to a few individual points which have been raised. The hon. member for Durban Central referred to the new subsidy formula which arose from the Van Wyk de Vries report and said that he accepts the importance of student numbers in that formula reluctantly. I concede that he might have a point there, but as the hon. member rightly admitted, he could not find a better solution for the problem either. The old Holloway formula placed the emphasis on courses, while the new formula attaches a great deal of value to student numbers and we are now running the risk of universities striving for larger numbers so that they can collect more money. Obviously we shall have to keep a watchful eye on this. As far as this point is concerned, I concede to the hon. member to some extent. We shall have to consider the position.

The hon. member for Green Point also referred to student numbers and asked whether the time has not come for us to take into account the needs of our country and our people in our university training, in other words, that we should apply a kind of quota system as far as admission to our universities is concerned. Of course, this system also exists in other countries, where one has the so-called numerus clauses, in terms of which the number of students for every faculty will be limited. In this country we have not yet reached that stage, although I do not want to say that necessity will not compel us to do the same. However, I think we should rather leave this matter in the hands of the new Advisory Council on Universities, so that they can advise us about that, otherwise we might do something which is not educationally grounded.

There are various members who pleaded for the rationalization of our universities. The hon. member for Rondebosch spoke about an over-concentration of students in certain subjects. That ties up with what the hon. member for Green Point said. The hon. member for Algoa referred to the duplication of expensive faculties and equipment. These are all important matters which have been raised and which demand our attention. Two years ago, my department succeeded for the first time in getting all the universities in South Africa who provide agricultural training around the conference table to discuss this very matter of rationalization in our universities. This is also a matter which can well be left in the hands of the new Advisory Council on Universities and its directorate, which will be dealing with this matter. While dealing with the universities, I want to refer to the question of the hon. member for Durban Central about the position with respect to legislation in connection with the proposed Advisory Council on Universities. With the kind accommodation of the Leader of the House, it is hoped that this Bill will be introduced this week. Seeing how enthusiastic hon. members are about the matter, I believe that we will pilot the Bill through Parliament in minimum time.

The hon. member for Durban Central also asked me what happened to the proposed Television Programme Advisory Council. Of course, I must have statutory powers before I can constitute such a council. I had hoped to introduce the legislation during this session, but it is too comprehensive a piece of legislation. We hope to be able to give attention to this legislation next year, during the first few weeks of the session, legislation establishing, inter alia, the Television Programme Advisory Council. The hon. members for Hercules and South Coast dealt with very interesting aspects of the training of technicians and the interaction between Colleges for Advanced Technical Education and our universities. I should like to make a few points with reference to their remarks. The hon. member for Hercules, in the first place, drew a comparison between the subsidies which our universities receive and those which the Colleges for Advanced Technical Education receive. He is quite right. A comparison of the two reveals that the Colleges for Advanced Technical Education have a claim to far greater accommodation. We are already dealing with that. We actually waited until after the completion of the subsidy formula for the universities, before we took the matter in respect of the Colleges for Advanced Technical Education any further. As hon. members know, we are renovating and extending the building complexes of the Colleges for Advanced Technical Education which are not modern and do not meet the needs. This is being done in Durban, Johannesburg, Pretoria and in the Vaal Triangle as well. Therefore, we are well on our way in improving facilities and equipment. The College for Advanced Technical Education in Port Elizabeth is an excellent, modern complex which has already been completed and will be inaugurated soon. It will give hon. members an indication of the kind of institution which we actually envisage.

In respect of the interaction between the universities and the Colleges for Advanced Technical Education, there was a difference of opinion between the hon. member for South Coast and the hon. member for Hercules. The fact of the matter is, of course, that students go to Colleges for Advanced Technical Education only because they are employed by employers who register them there for post-matriculation training. Therefore, one cannot go onto the streets and call people together and say that they must go to the colleges. For the same reason, it is not so easy to channel people from the universities to the colleges. That is also the point which the hon. member for South Coast made. He pleaded for a co-ordinating committee or council between the two kinds of institution. Of course, that corresponds exactly with the proposals contained in the report of the Van Wyk de Vries Commission, and to my mind, we shall have to think in that direction. However, as I have said, it will arise from our study of this report. I hope that we will then be able to solve this matter.

The hon. member also spoke about the training of technical teachers. He is quite right as far as that is concerned. The Pretoria College for Advanced Technical Education and the Witwatersrand College for Advanced Technical Education, which offer a correspondence course, will offer the teachers’ course until the end of 1980. After that, in accordance with statutory provisions, it will become necessary to switch over to a different system. In the new dispensation, a person with a National Technical Diploma will be able to follow a one-year teaching course at the Randse Afrikaanse Universiteit, the University of Port Elizabeth, the University of Cape Town, the University of Natal and also Unisa, which will offer the subjects through correspondence. I think that we have provided for the problems which he envisages.

He also referred to the employment of trained handicapped people. It is not really the task and function of my department to find employment for handicapped people, whom we train. Of course, there are various bodies such as Cripple Care, the Cerebral Palsy Association, the Society for the Blind, and so on, which find employment for these people. Some of these people are able to find employment on the open labour market; blind people in particular are placed on the open labour market. The other handicapped people are often placed in sheltered employment. However, it is an important aspect which the hon. member raised. Therefore, the necessary provision is being made through these bodies.

The hon. member for Green Point also referred to the two short paragraphs about the activities of the Education Council which appear in the department’s annual report. I am sorry for him if he only bases his judgment the first time that this happens in this way. I want to tell him that he should take into consideration the fact that the activities of the Education Council take place over a long period of time. The Council initiates certain work and gives certain advice which has to follow the long routes which are prescribed by the Act. It is not possible to say that the Education Council has done this, that or the other thing before that process has not run its full course. That could be a reason why only limited particulars have been included in the annual report, but I want to give him the assurance that there are no attempts on our part to hide the activities of this council. When there is anything important, we shall include it in the report.

The hon. member for Pietermaritzburg North referred to a professional teachers’ council and asked what progress have been made in that regard. I can tell him that the previous Education Council, after consultation with the Federal Council of Teachers’ Associations, submitted a draft Bill to me. In terms of the provisions of the Act, I had to submit it to the Administrators for comment. Their comment indicates that further consultation is necessary and therefore, the matter was referred back to the Federal Council of Teachers’ Associations. My department has taken the initiative in that connection, and I can tell the hon. member that the stage has now been reached where an amended draft Bill is being prepared for my consideration. In other words, the matter has almost reached finality.

I should like to congratulate the hon. member for Bryanston with the subject he chose. It is clear to me that he must have taken great pains before he could make his speech. He spoke about the care of pupils with hearing impairments in South Africa, which is an extremely important matter. He stated his case in a most interesting way, even for those of us who already know a good deal about this matter. In the first place he pleaded for an inquiry to be held and in the second place he pleaded that we start doing something to identify the cases of children with hearing impairments as soon as possible. These are two important aspects and, therefore, I want to tell him that there was an interdepartmental committee of inquiry into the educational facilities for educable pupils with hearing impairments as long ago as 1968. Apart from important and illuminating facts, that report highlighted a great many important points. In the first place, the hon. member pointed out that, as far as this matter is concerned, there are two schools of thought in the world today. In the first place, there is the American school of thought, according to which there is no such thing as complete deafness. They say that any person, no matter how deaf he is, still has certain residual hearing and should consequently not be isolated from people who use speech as a means of communication.

They say such a person should be educated along with people who are able to speak because this is the best method to develop his hearing. That is the one standpoint, and there are sound arguments in favour of it. Then there is the other group who say that there are particular degrees of hearing impairment which make it essential that those with hearing impairments be educated in special schools. We went into this matter thoroughly and eventually my department decided, after agreement had been reached with the provincial education departments, that certain categories of people with hearing impairments should remain in the provincial schools and should be given special attention in certain special schools for a shorter or longer period. If the hon. member is interested in this matter I should like to recommend to him that he visits one of the provincial schools in the Cape, the Mary Kihn School, if he can fit it in.

This is a very interesting school for someone who is interested in these matters. There one finds children who are in provincial schools, but who receive assistance at that special school. Then there are those who have to be placed in an altogether special school for the deaf or the hard of hearing. Those schools are the responsibility of my department. He is quite right in saying that it is undesirable that the hard of hearing and the deaf receive training in the same school. It is the policy of my department to separate them, but I do want to say that even in the three schools of my department where we have the two groups together, they are in completely different classes. I think that the hon. member made a very valuable Contribution and I am glad that he raised this point. I wonder whether the St. Vincent School for the Deaf falls in the hon. member’s constituency.

No.

The hon. member for Pietermaritzburg North complained that it is so difficult to get one’s child enrolled at or admitted to a pre-primary school. I want to tell him that he has a very short memory. At the end of last year’s short sitting, he still opposed our inclusion of pre-primary education in the definition of a school and the provinces accepting responsibility for them.

No, that is not the reason.

I want to tell the hon. member that, on the grounds of what has been done by my side of the House, he now has the right to approach his provincial authorities and say: “Now you must hurry up with your schools for preprimary education.” The answer to his question is as simple as that.

The hon. member for Rissik apologized for not being able to be here today. I just want to say that I also received Prof. Hamman’s letter about initiation at our universities. Actually, it dealt with the question of legislation against initiation. I studied the suggestion and agree that it obviously affects a serious matter. Only last week we read in the newspapers of the death of a young student who was involved in such an incident. Therefore, it is a serious matter and fortunately such incidents occur very seldom. I have referred this matter to the Committee of University Heads, because I believe that it is a matter which they must sort out among one another before I act in this connection, if it should be necessary.

The hon. member for De Aar spoke about the legal liability of teachers who transport children after school hours. Of course, this matter has often been raised among the different educational authorities. As far as my department is concerned, the teacher does so on his own responsibility. We discourage the teachers to do so, because they render themselves liable to prosecution, although it occurs very seldom, if ever, that a parent prosecutes a teacher because his child was involved in an accident together with the teacher. If a school bus is bought out of school funds, my department stipulates further that insurance has to be taken out for the vehicle. If it is a bus which has been acquired privately, the department, of course, has no say in the matter. I think this is really a matter for the various departments of education, and that they ought to take the matter further themselves.

The hon. member for Kimberley North pleaded for one final examination at the end of a school career. Of course, this matter has often been considered by various bodies. The Suid-Afrikaanse Akademie vir Wetenskap en Kuns, for example, has given this a great deal of consideration; the Committee of Heads of Education and the Matriculation Board have also discussed this matter. The fact of the matter is that as long as the Matriculation Board prescribes the requirements for admission to our universities, they will obviously require an examination. That is quite right too. What is important is that the standard of the different examinations must be comparable. In the light of the historic course of events, in which every education department is set on having its own examination, I do not think that there is any hope to revert to the system according to which only one final examination can be written.

The hon. member for Stilfontein gave a fine testimonial for that which my department is doing for handicapped children, and I am grateful to him. He referred more specifically to the two schools of which he has experience. I want to tell him that he could have applied this in a wider sphere as well, because I think we have a great deal in the field of adult education, which we in South Africa can show to even advanced countries abroad. Since the hon. member asked that the people who are employed there should be better renumerated, I want to point out that the teachers at those schools already receive an extra notch, in their salary with the approval of the Committee of Heads of Education, precisely because of the difficult task they have to fulfil there. He also pleaded that the Hope School be replaced by a school which complies with more modern requirements. I just want to tell him that we are already moving in that direction. The problems which he mentioned in connection with the school which is situate on top of a dangerous hill, are real problems and the school no longer meets the requirements in all respects which we impose on a modern school of this nature.

Mr. Chairman, I think that I have replied to all the points which have been raised by hon. members, and I want to conclude by thanking all of them once again for what was, in my judgment, a positive discussion of a very important vote.

Mr. Chairman, it was gratifying to hear the hon. the Minister say that he found the first portion of this debate positive. I sincerely trust that he finds what has yet to ensue equally positive. His new baby has arrived after what must surely be the longest gestation period in the history of mankind. The new baby’s name is TV and it was born …

Is that a joke?

Yes, it is a joke; the only thing is you did not laugh. [Interjections.]

†It was born earlier this month and it can be seen both in glorious colour and in black and white by all shades of persons and opinions that go to make up our complex society. For two hours of each day, excluding Sundays, TV can be enjoyed in the homes of those who are able and prepared to pay for it. This happy event has come about notwithstanding determined attempts over some nine years by the Wicked Fairy—and here comes another joke—Uncle Albert to commit an abortion most foul. From all reports the child is a well-formed one. It is technically perfect and its outward appearance would indicate that all is well. It has a good colour and a good pair of lungs. I am pleased to hear this, Mr. Chairman, because I predicted that this would be the case when I addressed the Committee in this House last year on this subject under this Vote.

I want, however, to express my concern once again for the well-being of this child’s character and its upbringing. I want to assure the hon. the Minister that it is my intention to continue to take an interest in its development towards eventual maturity. I want to say that this is one child that must never become a parent’s pet or a spoilt brat because it could then grow into a monster which would be unacceptable to a large proportion of our society. However, with careful nursing and guidance there is no need for TV to be anything other than something of which, all sections of our community can be proud. We could all be proud not only of its quality but also, I feel, of its fairness and objectivity in all things and at all times. This national pride could be brought about as a result of the actions of this hon. Minister.

Who are you quoting?

I am quoting myself—It is the hon. the Minister’s responsibility and his responsibility alone to ensure that we will enjoy that pride in a technically sound, unbiased, fair, objective and informative television service for all time. This is well within the ambit of influence of the hon. the Minister and I can assure him that positive moves in this direction will be lauded and will receive praise and encouragement from this side of the House.

This objective is the first of four aspects which I feel are worthy of close consideration by the hon. the Minister. The second is that of transmission times. There appears to be a lot of uncertainty and confusion in this regard and there has been a certain amount of speculation as to what the future holds for us. I feel that the time has come for us to be given clear answers and assurances by the Minister as this will do much to stabilize the situation. Typical of the questions which are currently being asked by many people are the following: Is it intended that we will get a maximum of five hours TV coverage a day, and, if this is so, is the expense then a justifiable one; if not, when will the period of five hours a day be extended, and what is the ultimate intention in respect of the duration of daily transmission times? Will Saturday transmissions have sport coverage in addition to the normal transmission times? Will we have TV on Sundays and, if so, for what periods? Sir, questions of this nature are legion. While I would like to hear the hon. the Minister’s reply to those questions, I would also like to seek his assurance on two points, firstly that every effort will be made to give the country maximum transmission times with the minimum amount of delay and, secondly, that transmission hours will not be curbed purely because of a lack of Afrikaans programmes. Sir, this has been freely suggested. A solution to this problem, of course, is to dub programmes. I am not suggesting that this should apply to just any programme, but highly acceptable programmes and films from all countries of the world could be dubbed in the Afrikaans or the English language. Sir, dubbing today is an art. Libraries could then be developed and we could get increased transmission times on the 50-50 English/Afrikaans basis which is envisaged. No sector of the community would then have any cause for complaint. Sir, the third aspect which is uppermost in people’s minds is the question of licensing, and here I would like to make a few suggestions and to seek clarity in respect of certain somewhat cloudy issues. We know that the licence fee is to be R36 per annum. We presume that this will be collected by the G.P.O. If so, can it not be agreed that John Citizen will pay his licence fee at the rate of R3 per month on his telephone account? His telephone rental is debited to his account; why not his TV licence fee? If people are not telephone subscribers, I feel that this is a facility which should still be extended to them. I feel that this would not be difficult to administer in the light of the fact that most telephone accounts today are computerized. I am sure that such a step would be welcomed by all. Then, Sir, what would the situation be in respect of television in old-age homes and similar institutions? These are surely worthy of some special consideration, and once again I appeal to the hon. the Minister to consider waiving licence fees for old-age homes and institutions of a similar nature. Then there is one salient question that remains, and that is the position of hotels. Will all hotels have to pay R36 per annum for each set that they own? If so, I think they are going to have quite a bill to meet. I suggest that it might be better for them to pay a fixed fee, payable subject to application and based on the hotel board’s rating for that particular establishment. I put this forward purely as a suggestion. Sir, if we want to consider the interests of our budding television industry and our tourist industry, then I feel that all our better-class hotels should, as is the case in most overseas countries, be equipped with television in each room. But look at the case of a five-star hotel with, say, 250 rooms, wanting to install TV in each of those rooms. They will think twice about it because it will cost them R9 000 per annum for licence fees alone. There is one hotel group in South Africa that has 3 100 rooms—it is the Holiday Inns group, incidentally—and it will cost them R111 600 per annum in licence fees under the present system.

The fourth and final aspect which I feel deserves urgent attention is the much publicized price war that is now taking place. I feel that the hon. the Minister, although this is not his problem alone, but also that of his colleagues, should come out most strongly on this issue. Healthy competition is one thing, but “hit-and-run” trading is to be deprecated and it should be stopped in its tracks right now before it starts. The Government has decided in its wisdom to limit the manufacture of TV sets to six manufacturers. I do not intend involving myself in the pros and cons of this argument but I am appalled to note that we have already had questionable practices at retail level. Surely these six manufacturers should have established their own distributive organization and these in turn should have established carefully selected retail outlets which are financially capable of stocking TV sets and spares, as well as setting up properly equipped and staffed service facilities. If not, I feel that the manufacturer/ distributor organization should be taken to task, because the permissible profits are more than adequate to allow for healthy trading competition between accredited dealers, and I do not think that these fly-by-night dealers should be allowed to entice the public into anything … [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, before saying a thing or two in connection with the SABC, I should like to touch upon another matter. Under subhead H of the Vote, mention is made of the Huguenot College. Sir, the Huguenot College has a very long history. Its roots lie very deep and we can link the names of many important people to the history of this college situated at Wellington. It is so that the college actually adopted its present name only in later years. Earlier it was known as the Friedenheim College. The founder was the late Dr. Andrew Murray. In the early fifties there was an interesting development, when this college was transferred, under the guidance of the late Dr. A. J. Stals, one-time Minister of Education and of Social Welfare, to the Dutch Reformed Church, In 1962, the present Prime Minister, in his capacity as Deputy Minister of Education, cut the Gordian knot in that he obtained certain Government subsidies for this college. The students at that college generally have the necessary qualifications for admission to universities, but obviously the college can only award diplomas to them. The high quality of the education given at this college, where people are chiefly trained in social work, is recognized by the fact that those who have studied there may register as social workers in terms of the National Social Welfare Act and that the Department of Social Welfare evaluates and recognizes these people as being on an equal level with those who were trained at universities. It was recently announced that the University of South Africa had decided to take these students under its protection and although they will study at the Huguenot College, they will be able to gain degrees under Unisa’s supervision. It was in this process as well that a professorate was offered to the rector of the college. From this recognition which the college is given by the State and from the further recognition it is now being given by Unisa, two very important aspects in particular arise. In the first place, it serves as an illustration of a principle strongly maintained in South Africa, viz. the principle of partnership between the State and the Church, or the State and voluntary initiative, when the welfare of people is at stake. Earlier on this afternoon we had the speech of the hon. member for Stilfontein and if he had had the time, he could have said more about the important role which private initiative plays in establishing the type of institutions to which he referred, and about the role of a partner which the department or State plays to allow that type of institution to render major services in practice. The second important aspect which emerges, is that we have here a fine demonstration of the co-operation between a training centre and a university. Here we have a practical example of people trained at a college receiving their degrees from a university. Here we have conclusive proof of the fact that if the goodwill is there, and the right attitude is created, co-operation can be very fruitful. Hence my appreciation on behalf of the college for the strong support it has received from the State in recent years. I had the privilege of helping to write a part of the history, and for the college and those of us who are involved in it, this is really a very great step forward. We hope that the subsidization formula will be changed in such a way in the future that the college will be able to obtain the necessary funds to extend its work even further. We have here a good example of the high quality of the work which a college can do, so high that a university can award a university degree to the people who have been trained there.

Coming to the SABC, I want to say immediately that I think the SABC will still have to fall back to a large extent on the experience it gained in ordinary radio broadcasting at this stage of the development of television. Over the years, the SABC has gained experience of what the needs of the community are, and how it can best serve the listening public. Therefore, I believe that in the development of television, the SABC will be able to draw fruitfully from the past. In this connection, I want to refer to one particular function of the SABC as a news medium, viz. its task of reporting particular events, as soon as those events take place, to its listeners. In this way, we had the Fox Street incident recently, and although the SABC also fell into certain pitfalls, as did the public Press, the public was exceptionally appreciative of the service which the SABC provided. It kept them informed from time to time of what was happening there. I am not speaking of the content of the reports now, but of the rapid service as such.

Just as the Press finds it necessary to comment on particular newsworthy events or on a particular news item, the SABC also finds its necessary from time to time to comment on news, to evaluate the news, as it were. If one takes into consideration that the SABC’s licensees were a mere 160 000 in 1936, as against approximately 2,4 million today, one asks oneself whether this increase would have been there if the SABC had not provided an effective programme or programmes to its listeners, if it had not provided an effective news service to its listeners. To my mind, the SABC itself has succeeded over the years in proving the credibility of its news presentation. The listeners would have protested very quickly had what the SABC presents in the form of news or news comments not been credible. Earlier this year, we had two debates here in which doubt was expressed about that. But even in those debates, and in the debates which we have had under this Vote as well, we did not hear the credibility of the SABC’s news service being questioned. In addition to this news service which the SABC provides, there is also another important aspect, to my mind, viz. the large variety of services which the SABC provides. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, I should like to identify myself with the very moving plea which the hon. member for Stilfontein made here this afternoon in regard to the Hope institution in Johannesburg. This institution falls within my constituency and therefore I can affirm everything the hon. member said about it. I also welcome the assurance of support for this institution which we received from the hon. the Minister this afternoon. I can give the Committee the assurance that this institution richly deserves support.

Before I discuss the SABC in more general terms, I first want to refer to reports in newspapers this morning and this afternoon that the SABC and the rugby chiefs are now at loggerheads about television broadcasts of big matches. Negotiations are still under way, so I do not want to say much about the matter, except to make two very important remarks in this regard. The first is that I hope the SABC will not allow itself to be bullied by the rich rugby people. The first obligation of the SABC is to the general public, the television viewing public. My second statement is that it would obviously be ridiculous— and I think everybody will agree with me —for us to impose a ten-day embargo on the showing of rugby films, as the Northern Transvaal wants to do. This would be ridiculous. There can only be direct broadcasts; anything else would be futile. The costs of such broadcasts can of course be negotiated. It is important and I can appreciate the viewpoint of both sides. However, if the SABC keeps in mind the fact that it is the public which, comes first and not the rugby unions, we shall support them.

†From the little that one has seen of television in South Africa, I think it is already possible at this stage to draw a few very tentative conclusions. One undoubted conclusion, with which I think everyone will agree, is that the colour on South African TV is superb. It is clear from a technical point of view that the start of South African television has been a promising one. The SABC is to be congratulated on what I would call a hopeful beginning, but as far as content is concerned, it is clearly too early to judge. Even at this early stage I would like to say that there is the prospect of at least one very significant and interesting by-product from this new television service and that is the possibility of a higher standard of bilingualism because of the alternation of English and Afrikaans on the programme. This is all to the good. We welcome it heartily. The higher the standard of bilingualism in this country, the better. The SABC, however, if I may say so without any kind of arrogance, will have to be a little more fastidious about its language than it has been in the past. I will not criticize its Afrikaans. I probably cannot. There are many other people who are better equipped to do this. We all know, however, that SABC English leaves a great deal to be desired. All I can say is that I hope we are going to be spared little Afrikanerisms like “Mr. X. is under way to Pretoria”. I accept that he is “onderweg na Pretoria”, but please let him not be “under way to Pretoria”. I was delighted to hear semiofficially that we are not going to have any “Current Affairs” on television. This is something we must be eternally grateful for; but let us not, I believe, rejoice too soon. We are going to have a programme called “Public Affairs”. That is fair enough. I become very concerned, however, when I read in the 1974 SABC report that the corporation regards it as a part of its duty to “put important events significantly in context”. Apart from the rather quaint language employed in this phrase. I find the intention ominous. We know how sound radio has approached this question of putting things in context. I must say that I was a little distressed to learn the other day that the head of the TV news department has come straight from the Current Affairs department of sound radio. I can only pray that this does not mean that we are now going to see the slant of the SABC as well as hear it. I am happy to reserve judgment, but I admit to being worried.

Since we are now talking about apprehension, let me say that we were told in the report of the Commission of Inquiry into Television that one of the objects of TV is to “uplift morally.” May we hope that this does not mean depriving South Africans of the opportunity of seeing the new film version of Alan Paton’s Cry the Beloved Country which members will have read a day or two ago has been banned in South Africa 30 years after the publication of the book. Incidentally, is this a hint of the shape of things to come under the new Act? Is there any chance, I would like to ask the hon. the Minister, of our being spared this kind of censorship and selectivity on TV? Who is going to make these decisions? Will it be a corporation task or will it be the task of a committee representative of the whole community? There is also talk about television educating us. What sort of education is this going to be? Who is going to decide on the education? Will it be an inside job, or will it be done by a broadly based group of educational advisers representing all sections of the community including, incidentally, people from the English-language universities? When we come to discussion and commentary programmes, will there be a conscious striving—and I emphasize this— to make the panels as representative of the full spectrum of social, cultural and political viewpoints as possible? Will similar criteria apply to “Public Affairs”? What about political broadcasts? Will there be a hard and fast rule that all political viewpoints will be allowed an equitable share? We can go on asking questions of this nature indefinitely. Against the background of the SABC’s record, I fear that I am not optimistic. The corporation seems to accept that it has a solemn obligation towards apartheid, which, is now called, from what I gather, “ethnicity”. One’s mind boggles at the thought of it. Anyway, I hope that the hon. the Minister in replying to this debate will take a slightly different line from what he did last year and not suggest that the SABC is really a law unto itself and that he has no power to influence it. I believe it is absolutely imperative that the hon. the Minister should give this House and the country the assurance that as far as the SABC, a State monopoly, is concerned, he will do everything in his power to persuade them to present a fair and objective service. If the hon. the Minister believes that we are already getting a fair and objective service at this moment, we as well as a great part of the country, are already sunk at this moment.

Finally, I want to make a brief suggestion. It links up with something which was said earlier on in this debate on this side of the House, and that is that I hope the hon. the Minister will consider, in view of the inordinately high cost of licences and rentals, either to subsidize licence fees for everybody who is in receipt of an old-age pension or to create a special tariff for them. I should also like to ask the hon. the Minister whether he has given any thought to the creation of crowd-viewing facilities for people of colour in their own residential areas. We know what the disabilities in those areas are, but how practical is it to create special viewing facilities for hundreds of people at a time? It may well be the responsibility of a local authority, but I feel that the hon. the Minister could well bring pressure to bear on the right quarters and help produce this situation. I believe that television is going to be a tremendous attraction for Black people, particularly in the early years, and I feel that it should be made as easy as possible for as many as possible to participate in what it has to offer. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, the hon. member for Parktown need not be concerned about the television service that is coming. This service is going to be in as good hands as the radio service of the SABC. The same fair and objective service …

Do not be so pessimistic.

The radio has become one of the strongest weapons in the struggle for Africa, and today Africa is one of the major target areas in the war of words being conducted over the ether. Radio waves are being used to an ever-increasing extent to reach to the as yet illiterate masses of Africa. The effectiveness of the radio as a way of influencing people is, of course, unequalled in Africa. For South Africa and for the SABC, the radio is a weapon to be used to promote peace and communicate goodwill, but in the hands of the communist, the radio is a powerful weapon of propaganda and subversion.

In your hands it is exactly the same.

Since Radio Moscow started to broadcast in Africa in 1958, communist transmissions to Africa have increased more than a hundredfold. The communists attach so much value to the radio that as far back as 1955, Radio Moscow presented more broadcasts than the BBC. Shortly thereafter it also outdid “The Voice of America”. In 1960 even Radio Peking outdid the Americans with their transmissions. On one occasion the Russian leader, Lenin, said that the radio was the newspaper without limits. The advent of the transistor radio brought about the biggest breakthrough to isolated communities in the history of mankind. By means of the transistor radio, radio transmissions are at present capable of penetrating even the jungles of Africa. Today South Africa is the target of a radio bombardment of unprecedented scale. Of all the foreign services, Red China has the strongest transmitter in Africa. It has even constructed a shortwave station in Dar-es-Salaam, from which violent attacks on South Africa are continually being launched. In order to intensify their campaign in Africa, the communist radio stations also provide financial assistance to the radio station in militant African countries. Inflammatory transmissions do not originate from behind the Iron Curtain only, but from nearby countries like Tanzania as well. Against this background, it is something to be very grateful for that the SABC is there to project South Africa’s true image which serves to counter this pernicious Communist propaganda. Transmissions from the SABC can be heard in all the African countries. They can even be heard in America. Over 5 million people listen to South Africa’s foreign programmes every day. Not only does Radio RSA make a vast contribution towards acquainting people overseas with South Africa and building South Africa’s image. It is also a major conveyer of a message of goodwill and good-neighbourliness. The SABC’s dedication to the ideal of an improved understanding between people was dramatically evidenced by its outstanding campaign to promote dialogue and cooperation between South Africa and the Black states in Africa. This SABC campaign impressed friend and foe, Black and White, alike. The SABC realized that faulty information and misconceptions were the biggest stumbling block on the path of co-operation and understanding between peoples. Consequently the SABC launched a joint information campaign. Listeners in our neighbouring states are informed about the people in South Africa and the desire among the people of South Africa for improved human relationships, security and progress for all. When the hon. the Prime Minister initiated his efforts to bring about détente, the SABC intensified its efforts as well. As a result, about a third of the discussions broadcast to Africa daily over the past year, concerned dialogue and co-operation. And this evoked favourable reaction. In innumerable letters received from African states, the opinion is expressed that the SABC has played a major role in creating the right mood for détente in Africa.

In addition, the SABC keeps its internal listeners informed about developments and tendencies in African politics to enable them to graps the motives and ideals of their Black neighbours. For this purpose the SABC has undertaken missions to various Black neighbouring states, including Zambia. These missions have been well received everywhere, and there is even talk of reciprocal visits by senior officials and of a visit to South Africa by senior officials from Zambia.

Of perhaps still greater significance is the fact that the SABC has played a major part in bringing about understanding between White and Black within South Africa. One day, when the history of human relationships in this country is written, the contribution of Radio Bantu will occupy a place of honour. Fifteen years ago, when Radio Bantu was established, forces of evil wanted to smother its voice. That was at the time of Sharpeville. Attempts were even made to intimidate announcers, but those ill-disposed persons were unable to still the voice of Radio Bantu. Radio Bantu found favour and became the most effective instrument with which to promote sound relations between White and Black in this country.

By means of programmes like “Our National Character”, “Our Homeland and its People”, “A Person is a Person through other People” and its religious programmes, Radio Bantu has created attitudes that have contributed largely towards the racial harmony we have in this country today. The seven programme services of Radio Bantu today have a daily audience of 4,7 million adults. More than half of South Africa’s adult Black population, therefore, listens to these programmes. That they are taken up with this service, is evident from the fact that last year, more than 5 million letters were received by Bantu listeners, whereas hardly any of these letters contained criticism of these programmes. Radio Bantu has helped to establish constructive and effective communication between White and Black, and a great deal has been achieved thereby. On the premise that knowledge is the key to better understanding between peoples, the SABC has not concentrated on the Bantu alone. It has also given more attention to informing the Whites of this country and cultivating the correct relations and the correct attitude among the Whites in South Africa.

There is yet another cardinal factor we may not overlook. This is the conciliatory role which the SABC has played. Whereas certain English-language newspapers in this country have bedevilled relations between national groups and even fomented racial hate through blind pursuit of points of dispute and sensation—unfortunately my time is too short to give hon. members examples, but they know what I am talking about; the hon. member on the other side who is shaking his head knows this very well, too— the SABC unfailingly encouraged reconciliation and harmony. By acting in this way, the SABC has become an indispensable and irreplaceable ally in our campaign to cultivate a greater degree of goodwill among the races. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, in my opinion this entire issue of the right of the SABC to interpret news is probably far from being fully discussed in this House. I think we can be pleased that the Opposition at least adopted a more moderate tone today in the criticism of this matter. However, the hon. member for Durban Central still saw fit to refer to the programme “Current Affairs” which “is still broadcasting propaganda”. The hon. member for Parktown also saw fit—although without putting his hand to his heart so often and with less flowery rhetoric—to refer to this programme as “five minutes’ agony, mind-boggling”, etc. I want to remind him that last year—or earlier this year, I cannot remember—in the debate on this subject he described the SABC as “the only broadcasting system in the free world that has unashamedly become the mouthpiece of the Government”.

Because we did not have a full discussion of this matter in the debate on the motion that was before the House earlier this year, I think it is necessary for us to analyse the issue of the right of interpretation, etc., in a little more depth today.

We start with news reporting, which has come under constant fire from the Opposition and that section of the Press which supported them at that stage, particularly since the early sixties after Sharpeville and the introduction of the programme “Current Affairs”. Since we are now on the threshold of the television era, and since the television medium lends itself pre-eminently to momentary impressions and topical presentation of a situation, and in certain respects is also very dependent on the commentator on the scene and his personal opinion of the matter, I think it is vital that we should settle to our satisfaction for once and for all the issue as to whether the SABC does in fact have the right to interpret news and put it in perspective or report it in context.

However, it is necessary for us to see news reports in perspective. Taken as a whole, very little time is spent by the SABC on news as such. A recent investigation indicated that in any event, more than 75% of all news broadcasts by the SABC was news from abroad. In other words, we are not discussing programmes here that are continually broadcast over the ether every day.

Sir, there are a few things that continually vex the Opposition, and they are the issue of balance in the broadcasting of news, the issue of impartiality, the issue of interpretation and the point of view and standpoint on which the interpretation has to be based. In my opinion, the Opposition has shown once again that they want to make a political football of this extremely delicate matter. The Opposition has once again tried to indicate that the SABC is unique in the free world as regards its use of the radio to interpret news. In other words, as far as the SABC news commentary is concerned, they are trying to bring the SABC into discredit. The hon. member for Orange Grove saw fit to call out “Propaganda!” when an hon. member on this side of the House referred to the way in which communist countries misused the radio. Sir. I wonder whether these people realize that they are really being a little silly in wanting to single out the SABC in this regard. Let us look at the BBC, the mother of all statutory broadcasting establishments. In the first place, let us look at their policy. The news policy of the BBC is laid down by statute. It is instructed to ensure that nothing is broadcast which could offend good taste or decency, which might encourage crime, which could give rise to disorder or be offensive to public feeling. [Interjection.]

Sir, if that hon. member wanted to listen and use his brain a little, he would realize that objectivity is not something one can define in absolute terms. It is dependent on the interpretation of a particular individual. In its statutes the BBC, too, recognizes the principle that no one, however good or clever he may be, can be objective because everything he judges, he interprets with his eyes or his ears in terms of his own frame of reference and in terms of his own insight and intelligence. Then too, Sir, there is this interesting provision that the BBC has to ensure that all news is presented with the necessary accuracy and impartiality.

“Impartiality”.

Sir, I am pleased that the hon. member agrees with this, because he is going to be surprised when I go into this matter a little further. Let us consider the question of balance. In its 1973 manual the BBC states—

The following statement by a former director-general is also quoted in this manual—

Sir, just one further quotation on the issue of balance: In the same book the BBC says the following about its news bulletin—

And the Opposition must please listen to this carefully—

What about news selection?

Take no notice of him.

Sir, let us take a look at the question of impartiality; it is related to what the hon. member said about news and news selection. In the “Prescribing Memoranda”, which is a directive from the Minister of Posts and Telecommunications in Britain to the BBC. it is stated— and these are supposed to be binding directives—that the BBC may express no opinion on current affairs or matters of public policy; that it must treat polemic issues with due impartiality, and that it should ensure, as far as possible, that programmes do not offend good taste, etc. This sounds wonderful, until we see what else is stated in the 1973 manual—

And these matters I am going to mention are all matters subject to interpretation which differs from country to country and from community to community. They concern the following—

And we are getting more and more emotional. That is how they qualify their impartiality, and do so with such a glaring practical contradiction. What is stated in the year book and what occurs in practice are poles apart, and where this interpretation takes place, it does so on the basis of the overall national will of the particular country. This applies to the BBC and it applies, too, to radio stations in Germany, viz. that the qualifying factor applies time and again to the interpretation by the organization—that specific broadcasting organization—of the norms in general of the community served by them. And what are those norms? They vary from country to country. Norman Swallow states in his book that the British norms are as follows. As they see it, their norms give them carte blanche to take sides against Fascism and racial intolerance in programmes of the “Current Affairs” type: to be strongly critical of countries like South Africa. Portugal and Spain; to stress the freedom of the individual and to question continually the right of the State to limit it, and to challenge the status quo in so far as it acts as a brake on change. Sir, I now want to ask these hon. members who interfere so insistently, whether this means that for the SABC to prove that it is supposedly impartial, it should continually adopt the standpoint of a protesting minority as occurs in the BBC?

No.

Whose standpoint, then, should be adopted to serve as a basis for interpretation? In South Africa, more than a million people per day listen to “Current Affairs”. A recent scientific investigation indicated that listeners preferred, by a factor of two, to listen to interpretative programmes that afforded perspective rather than sterile reporting without any interpretation whatsoever. If that is insufficient proof that interpretation of news is something which is accepted in South Africa and that the SABC is doing very well, then I do not know what is. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, having listened to the hon. members for Florida and Bloemfontein North, I have a sort of suspicion that there must be two sets of SABC programmes in South Africa, one set that normal people listen to and which is of an indoctrinating nature, and another Set that the hon. members listen to so that they can justify their attitude in this House. Sir, the use of both radio and television obviously constitute a very powerful weapon, and there is little doubt that that powerful weapon can be used for good and be for harm, in fact for indoctrination. But what is important—and here I react to the hon. member for Bloemfontein North—is that when we broadcast outside of South Africa, what is essential is that the message we broadcast must be a credible one, because anyone who has listened to some of the broadcasts emanating from some of the States outside South Africa, and hears the tirades and the exaggerations, must know that you merely have to listen to that kind of thing to know that it is not credible and that nobody takes any notice of that kind of noise. What is important is that when we broadcast outside of South Africa, we resist the temptation to compete with that type of trash. It is fundamental that we must in fact be credible.

You are telling the world that we are fibbing?

The hon. member for Florida talked about the right of interpretation. Sir, I do not dispute the right of interpretation of anyone, provided it is legitimately and properly used, but what we object to is the abuse of the right of interpretation in order to interpret for a political indoctrinating purpose. That is one objects to.

Where is your proof?

With great respect, when the hon. member talks about the overseas news, he must remember that overseas news can also by a process of selection and by a method of presentation be used for a local political purpose. What I find most startling is the hon. member for Florida’s statement that impartiality can confuse. The one thing one cannot complain about in so far as the possibility of confusion is concerned, is when one applies it to the SABC. I would like to say that whereas impartiality can confuse, partiality indoctrinates and that is what we on this side of the House object to.

I would like to talk, if I may, on television for a moment. We believe that television should be available not only to an élite, which is the situation that is developing in South Africa, but should be available to the community as a whole. We will have more to say about that under the Vote of the hon. Minister of Economic Affairs. What is happening in South Africa at the moment is that because of the cost of television and the high cost of licensing fees it looks as if television is bound to become the prerogative of the élite in South Africa. Television should convey news, entertain and educate. In so far as the aged and lonely are concerned, it looks to me as if the one major factor which can persuade people who are in favour of television to advocate it—so that the aged and lonely will be able to benefit from it—is likely to be frustrated by the high cost of television in South Africa. In regard to the standard of entertainment I think that we—in fairness—are obliged to wait before passing judgment, because I think that it is not fair that the whole standard should be fudged by these test programmes. When it comes to the question of education which I feel is as important as any other function of television. I believe that the hon. the Minister should tell us a few things in regard to the use of television for the purpose of education in South Africa. We in South Africa have a major problem in that we have a large section of the population which is in need of education and in respect of whom there are shortages of facilities in respect of buildings, teachers and everything else. In respect of that section of the population one could use television as a major medium of education. I do not know of any plans to do that. We speak of shortages of teachers not only in the Black community but also in the White community. The weapon, television, which can be used to combat that shortage not to replace the teacher but to be used as a teaching medium together with teachers, is one that I, with respect, have not heard enough about. When it comes to closed circuit television we have an utter debacle. More than 15 years ago I was party to a demand for an inquiry into this. There were overseas missions sent by, for example, the Transvaal Education Department, and after 15 years this is still in the so-called experimental stage in South Africa. When we come to the use of television for education, I want to say that in other countries of the world we have had television universities, the so-called open universities. I believe that South Africa can do the same. One could use television during the morning hours or during other hours. One could have special channels on television for use as a medium of education of our people, to solve the backlog in so far as the education of our Black people is concerned and to help the White people, particularly in the field of higher education. I would like to make an appeal to the hon. the Minister to ensure that television becomes an educator in South Africa and a powerful weapon with which to uplift our people.

In the time still available to me I should like to talk for a moment about universities. We have had reports of commissions—two of them—which are still hanging as swords of Damocles over the student population of South Africa. We had a debate in this House on the reports of the Schlebusch Commission. We heard what the attitude of members of the Opposition to the recommendations was but we are still waiting to find out what the attitude of the Government is in respect of these recommendations and as to whether anything is going to be done or whether we can now regard that report as having been buried. Here I may perhaps mention in passing that much was said about red faces, for example in regards of the finances of Nusas. I notice that some of these red faces seem to be on the wrong people now that the Attorney-General has declined to prosecute.

You are talking absolute nonsense.

I believe that it is necessary that the hon. the Minister should now tell us in respect of the specific recommendations contained in the final report of the Schlebusch Commission what the Government’s attitude is and what, if anything, the Government is going to do about it or whether we can now regard these matters as buried.

Let us take the Van Wyk de Vries Commission. I want to deal with only the political part of it for the moment. Here, with great respect, we have again had a debate but we have not been told what the attitude of the Government is. We do not know what the Government’s attitude on these matters is. I believe that the hon. the Minister owes it to the student population of South Africa to say where the Government stands and whether these things can be regarded as dead and buried or whether there is still going to be something done about any of the recommendations contained in these two particular reports. I want to deal with one other matter in relation to students at our universities. I regard it as a matter of sadness that there is so little liaison between the students of the various universities in South Africa. The situation that has existed by reason of what has developed in regard to Nusas, has resulted in there not being a single student organization for White students in South Africa. Furthermore, as a result of other actions a situation has now resulted where there is not a multi-racial organization in which all students of all universities can meet together and co-operate. Some of the young people at the University of the Witwatersrand have tried to renew these contacts in order to try to create a student organization where there can be contact with all South Africa’s students. I would like to see a new organization of students in South Africa in which there can be contact with all the students who study in our country so that an exchange of ideas can take place. If you remain apart, if you do not communicate, you create a situation where people do not understand each other and you get friction developing. South Africa can afford to do without this. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, I do not intend to reply to the host of questions raised by the hon. member.

We are spending an amount of approximately R214 million a year on our education, as against a total national expenditure of approximately R5 024 million a year, i.e. about 4%. What I want to plead for today will not even push up this expenditure to 5% of our national revenue. I want to motivate my case as follows: It is essential that we realize that the Republic of South Africa has been led by history to play a leading role out of all proportion to its population, and specifically as a result of the extent of our natural resources. This wealth of natural resources is a component of an international and African conflict situation from which we shall not be able to escape in the years to come. In the second place, this abundant supply of natural resources creates the greatest inescapable question in respect of the two basic elements with which the Creation presents us, namely how the unfathomable depths of the human mind may be exploited and utilized, and, secondly, how the endless mystery of the diversity of the Creation, as we see it before us in our resources, can be exploited and utilized. The handling of the conflict situation caused by our wealth of resources, the task of exploiting and utilizing the hidden powers of the human mind, and the task of exploiting and utilizing the powers contained in the mystery of the Creation, will rest on the shoulders of the small White population of our country in the years to come. We must realize that in seeking to escape from the political domination of the Black man by creating independent Black states, we shall have to pay a very high price. We shall be expected to provide assistance, technological aid and scientific advice, to supply food and to promote development—these are all prerequisites for our full liberation from the Black man. We shall have to realize, too, that we shall have to pay dearly for the preservation of what is precious and holy to us as Westerners. We shall have to keep up a constant supply of the most sophisticated weapons, which are expensive. We shall have to realize, too, that the appearance of Karl Marx in Southern Africa implies that the struggle against us has begun here over a very wide field in the scientific, technological, political and economic spheres. When Communism took over in Russia in 1917, the Communists concentrated on all the aspects of education. They elevated the teacher and the researcher to a high financial and social status within the national hierarchy. They emphasized intellectual capital formation and set great store by it. Today, Russia is producing more technologists and scientists than the whole Western world together. Education has a slow tempo and I am convinced that tremendous shocks are in store for the Western world in future as a result of the policy Russia has followed. I want to quote what was said by Prof. Messel of the University of Sydney. He said—

We shall have to realize that our survival depends on the extent to which we can make up for our lack of numbers and cope with the tremendous task of accepting leadership and with the tremendous task of liberation in which we are engaged by providing our people with the very best technological, scientific and spiritual equipment. Indeed, I know of no nation on which so many high intellectual demands will be made in the last half of the 20th century as on this nation to which we belong. We dare not make any mistakes. We shall not gain anything by blaming the disintegration of our eternally valid moral and intellectual norms and the demands and standards required for their preservation on the subversive influence of communism or liberalism. We shall be dependent on the exploitation of our own intellectual capital to find the answer to that problem. Détente will not save us. If it were to succeed, we should still not be able to evade the great power struggle. Independent Black states will enable us to breathe a little more freely in the political field, but for the structures we are building by creating independent Black states and which we shall have to maintain, and for the power struggle which lies ahead for us, considering negative and aggressive prejudices, the highest intellectual demands will be made on our nation. We shall have to realize that in forming ties with other States, our greatest strength will lie in the scientific and technological fields, which are not so charged with emotion and passion. Science and technology have become powerful diplomatic weapons to us in the field of food. Science has become a dominant element in the world of the 20th century. We shall have to break away from the utility approach to science. Knowing the creation, identifying, recognizing and evaluating it and being able to build upon it, to exploit and to utilize it is culturally and spiritually enriching. It elevates the mind. Because we are engaged in this struggle and because we are faced with a challenge which is inescapable, I plead today that all university education after matric should be free of charge to all students who are intellectually able to benefit by it. Our nation wants to pay for it. We are engaged in a total war from which no atom bomb nor the creation of any Black state will be able to save us. We can only be saved by exploiting the intellect and by the extent to which we shall be able to create the necessary intellectual capital with which to face this great power struggle. Scientific schooling and scientific training are spiritually enriching. I know of no great scientist on earth who is not a deeply religious person. The natural sciences are human sciences as well, and the exploitation of every person’s intellectual abilities has become absolutely essential. There are many aspiring students who never enter the university campuses because they are financially unable to do so. There are a great number of bursaries, but it costs approximately R1 800 a year to keep a student at university. There are 95 800 students and I think that our nation will be very willing to pay for free education for our university students. I am not including foreign students, of course, and I am pleading only for our own people who will be responsible for our own capital formation.

Mr. Chairman, it is a pleasure to listen to the hon. member for Carletonville, and I think that all of us in this House agree with him that our continued existence in South Africa depends in particular on whether we are able to keep up the pace, spiritually and intellectually.

Recently the Government accepted the recommendations of the Van Wyk de Vries Commission with regard to the formula in terms of which universities have to be subsidized. Various speakers have referred to this matter in the course of this debate. Although the hon. the Minister has not yet indicated whether the Government is going to accept the recommendations of the Van Wyk de Vries Commission as well with regard to the subsidizing of capital expenditure, we have already entered upon a new and a better era as far as our university system is concerned. During the time in which the commission completed its activities the Government subsidy for universities increased approximately fourfold, i.e. from approximately R20 million to approximately R100 million. Therefore the commission brought about a radical change in the financing of universities by means of its interim reports. All the universities are most grateful to the commission and also the Government for this. Earlier this session the hon. member for Bloemfontein West introduced a private motion in which a few things were said about this formula and I do not, this afternoon, want to repeat those aspects which he has already dealt with. The fact remains that the formula according to which the South African universities are being subsidized, is incomparably better than any of the systems according to which the most European and in particular Western universities are being subsidized. Hon. members of the Opposition, and in particular the hon. members of the Progressive Parity, often argue that universities in South Africa do not enjoy the same autonomy which many universities in the Western world enjoy. In those cases their arguments are usually limited to only a few aspects of the universities, for example the academic requirements for admission, but they forget that the financial aspect is one of the fundamental elements of the universities. Without the necessary funds, all the planning comes to nought. In no other field is the autonomy of the university so vulnerable as it is on the financial level. In this very sphere the university is in fact running the risk of surrendering some of its autonomy because of its increasing dependence on the State and, to a lesser extent, on the private sector. It is in this very field that the South African universities enjoy a certain measure of freedom and autonomy which apply almost nowhere else in the world. In Germany. Holland, Belgium, Austria, Switzerland and also in the U.S.A. detailed estimates have to be submitted by the authorities in the case of most state universities up to as many as twelve months before the relevant year, and once those estimates are approved, they have to be adhered to strictly in the minutest detail. There is simply no scope for any change and adjustment to new circumstances. After all, it goes without saying that such a lack of autonomy could have a very restricting effect on the academic activities of a university. As against that, the universities in South Africa enjoy the freedom and autonomy to determine their own aims and objects within the allocated subsidies and to endeavour to achieve those objects in an autonomous manner. Of course, this requires great responsibility on the part of the universities because they have to make the best possible use of their funds.

The fact remains that the South African universities find themselves in a most favourable financial position as a result of this formula. However, there are a few aspects which were not taken into consideration properly as far as this formula was concerned. As has been said here, the number of students remains the basis on which the subsidy is calculated. However, it is also important to bear in mind that the operating costs of a university are not determined by the number of students it has, but depend on the scope of the functions it has to perform as a full-fledged university. I should like to illustrate this point by mentioning the example of university libraries. After all, the size of a university library cannot be determined solely on the basis of the number of students. The library is the heart of any university and has to undergo a certain minimum expansion every year in order to continue to comply with a high standard. The commission itself has this to say in this regard—

However, this aspect has not received adequate attention in the formula and I therefore believe that this is a matter which could be considered sympathetically. After all, the library and the sound utilization thereof is an essential condition for any university to acquire academic prestige.

In addition, the cost of books has increased enormously during the past few years. One of the universities told me that they tried to calculate what academic books would cost them at the present prices. They came to the following conclusions: In the human sciences category books cost an average of R8,75; in the natural sciences, R19,33; subscription to periodicals amount to an average of R30 to R40 per year per periodical, i.e. if a university subscribes to approximately 3 000 periodicals—I was told that 3 000 periodicals are not regarded as a large number at all—subscription fees on those periodicals alone amount to R100 000 per year.

As far as the libraries are concerned, it is not only the subsidy formula which is at issue; what is more important, is the utilization of libraries. Related to this is the necessity for rationalization. Since mention has already been made of rationalization during the course of this debate, I believe we have here one of the spheres in which sound rationalization could mean the saving of millions of rands which could then be utilized more effectively elsewhere. There is enormous duplication, an unnecessary duplication of works which are seldom used. As it happens, it is calculated that at most 5% of the books in the library are used only once a year. In addition, books in some of the disciplines have a very short lifespan. Books on electronics, for example, are regarded as completely obsolete after five years. In this way valuable space— and we all know that space in a modern and effective library is extremely expensive—is occupied by material which is completely inactive. Cheap structures, to name only one possibility, could be erected as central library stacks or storage space from which the various libraries could be served. In this way it would in the first place, be possible to effect a saving in respect of expensive storage space and, in the second place, unnecessary duplication could be eliminated. Furthermore, universities which are situated in close proximity to one another could co-ordinate their purchasing programmes for certain specialized fields of study and in this way eliminate the unnecessary duplication of books with a low utilization factor. Cooperation in this sphere is most essential in order to reduce unnecessary expenditure. After all, we in South Africa cannot afford the luxury of library empires. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, it was most interesting to listen to the arguments of the hon. member for Johannesburg West in connection with university libraries. The hon. member began very well by saying that there should be better utilization of university libraries, but I believe the way in which he wants to bring this about is not something with which we on this side of the House will agree. I think there are far better methods than those he suggested.

The hon. member for Carletonville has unfortunately left the House.

There he comes.

Yes. It was most interesting to hear what the hon. member for Carletonville had to say this afternoon. Apart from the Black peril which he weaved into his speech and which is something he will always do, of course, as we know him …

Now I am not listening to you any more.

… he also spoke of free university training. The hon. member has probably just woken up for the first time. As you may know, he goes to sleep here now and again. It would seem to me as if the hon. member does not realize …

Mr. Chairman, on a point of order: May the hon. member say that another hon. member goes to sleep in the House?

The hon. member may proceed.

Mr. Chairman …

You are talking nonsense, you do not know your facts and on top of that you are a liar as well.

Mr. Chairman, on a point of order: May the hon. member say that the hon. member for Wynberg is a liar?

Order! The hon. member for Pretoria Central must withdraw the word “liar”.

Mr. Chairman, I withdraw that word and I just want to say that the hon. member for Wynberg … [Interjections.]

Order! The hon. member for Wynberg may proceed.

Mr. Chairman, the hon. member who made that interjection is an hon. member who leaves me stone cold. What he says or thinks about me does not concern me at all. I shall make my speech the way I want to: the hon. member will not put me off with his interjections at all. The hon. member for Carletonville said that we should provide free university training. He said we should provide university training free of charge to any person in the country who has the intellectual ability to obtain a university degree. I said the hon. member for Carletonville had been asleep here because it has been United Party policy for the last 15 years and more. The hon. member for Carletonville has only just woken up and now he propagates this as being Nationalist Party policy. It seems to me that the Nationalist Party is rapidly taking over the education policy of the United Party. Therefore I should like to congratulate the hon. member for Carletonville on having discovered at last what the United Party’s policy is in respect of education.

†Mr. Chairman, I know that the hon. the Minister wants to make an interjection but before he does so I want to switch over to the subject of television. This is a subject in regard to which he and I appear to be almost ad idem on. I want to refer the hon. the Minister to a statement which he made on 27 April 1971 in this House as recorded in Hansard at col. 5289. I do not wish to quote the entire statement that the hon. the Minister made. I shall quote only the salient points for the purposes of my argument and leave out certain unnecessary words etc. The hon. the Minister had, inter alia, the following to say in his statement on the introduction of television in the Republic—

Including—these are the points I want to stress—the financial implications, training of staff, licensing, and safeguards against exploitation. I think it is important that we should realize that this is what the hon. the Minister said on 27 April 1971 when he made the announcement in this House that television was going to be introduced in the Republic. I believe that as a result of the fact that the hon. the Minister made that statement and made it in that way, he has certain responsibilities to the Republic as well as to this House. In so far as these responsibilities go, I believe that they are financial implications, the training of staff, licensing and safeguards against exploitation.

The hon. the Minister also announced in his statement that he was going to coordinate all of these functions. We have now to ask ourselves whether the hon. the Minister has in fact co-ordinated these functions. When one asks Assocom about this, they say: No, he certainly has not. Assocom states that they have to go from pillar to post to find out all about the financial implications; they have to go to someone else to find out about the training of staff; they have to approach some other quarter about licensing and some other quarter again in regard to safeguards against exploration. In other words, the hon. the Minister has failed in his job. He himself said that this was going to be his job. He said that he was the co-ordinator and that this was what he was going to co-ordinate.

However, he has fallen down on the job. He has not done his job. It is because of this fact that I believe the cost of television is so high. Instead of the Minister co-ordinating all these functions, he has allowed each section to do as it pleased. He is not doing any co-ordinating at all. He is doing nothing at all about it. I want to ask the hon. the Minister whether he has a representative on the committee which is investigating the question of inflation. I am pretty certain that he has not. I am quite convinced that if he did have one on the inflation committee that representative would have told him some time ago that he could not plan the introduction of television in the way he was doing it because it was resulting in inflation to such an extent that it would be almost impossible for anybody to be able to acquire a television set.

What has the hon. the Minister done in regard to training? This is a matter which he said he was going to co-ordinate. All that one has to do is to ask the Postmaster-General about this. What does the Postmaster-General have to say? The Postmaster-General says—

Sir, there is the hon. the Minister of National Education; he is co-ordinating the training. Surely one of the most import parts of the training programme was to ensure that the trade trained the people so that they would be capable of installing television sets in the various places where they have to be installed. I say again, therefore, that the hon. the Minister has fallen down on his job.

Sir, how has the Minister determined the licence fees? We do not know how he has done this. He has not given us any idea as to how he has done this. He has not told us why the fee is to be R36. He has not told us whether there is some other way of licensing. He has not told us whether there could be a graded licensing, nor has he told us—and here I want to associate myself with the hon. member for Parktown—whether it is possible for him to have a reduced or subsidized licence fee for those people who are over 70 years of age. I do not want to go into the question of pensioners, because I know that that is a rather vexed question, but why can the licence fee not be reduced for people over the age of 70, 71, 72 or 73 who can no longer get about? I think this is a very good point and I would like the hon. the Minister to tell us what he proposes to do in this regard.

Are you approaching 70?

No, I am not. I do not want to ask the hon. the Minister the same question, because I believe that if I were to ask him the same question I might get an answer that is almost in the affirmative and I would hate to have that answer because I know that the hon. the Minister would then qualify for higher honours and would leave this rather charming Chamber which has become so fond of him. [Time expired.]

The hon. member for Wynberg who has just resumed his seat began by saying, with reference to the excellent speech made here this afternoon by the hon. member for Carletonville, that this policy had always been their policy and that the National Party had suddenly taken it over. Sir, we do not find it strange that the United Party should take up such a standpoint, because one must at least give them credit for knowing a good thing when they see it and wanting to appropriate it to themselves. But I want to add to that that the people of South Africa have got to know them so wall in this respect that it does not surprise one that in spite of the attempts they make to appropriate to themselves everything which is done on this side, the people have consistently rejected them each time. In respect of his story about television and the lack of action on the part of the hon. the Minister in that respect, I want to say immediately that I have great sympathy, too, with the stand taken by the hon. member in respect of certain concessions to older people. I do not think there is anybody in this House who would disagree with him in that respect. If something can be done in this regard, I am convinced that the hon. the Minister and his department would like to do it. But there is another matter which he failed to stress in connection with his argument with the hon. the Minister about certain aspects which allegedly cause inflation, and that is that he failed to say to the Committee, in respect of the question of the shortage of labour in the television industry, that the employers in the private sector failed to make provision for the training of people to control and manage television. If there are people Who should be censured in this connection, they are those private employers who are really guilty of wasteful exploitation in the labour field. The hon. member should rather have asked for this to be stopped and for punitive measures to be taken against employers who are guilty of wasteful labour exploitation by drawing training workers from other categories to operate television.

Sir, I should like to talk about another matter in the few minutes at my disposal. I want to confine my remarks to the question of the performing arts. If one looks at the grants-in-aid for specialized cultural services provided for in the Budget, one sees that the grant-in-aid for the performing arts is right at the top of the list. According to the annual report, an amount of R2 298 000 was granted to the regional councils for the performing arts in the past year. According to the Budget, the amount for the coming year will be R2 735 000, a considerable increase on the previous expenditure. Sir, I think it is necessary for one to examine this expenditure a little more closely to determine for oneself whether this expenditure is justified. If one looks at what appears in the annual report of the department in respect of the various regional councils, one sees that this expenditure is really more than justified. If one looks only at the annual report of the Transvaal council, one sees that there were indications that the attendance figure for 1974 would be higher than the figure of 694 000 for 1973. But if one goes further and looks at what is actually being offered in this respect, one really is impressed by the excellent work being done by the various regional councils. I think it is fitting that, on an occasion such as this, we should express our appreciation this afternoon to the responsible people in this connection who perform their duty conscientiously every day. But in spite of the good work that is being done the Government has seen fit to appoint a commission which has specific terms of reference in this connection. This commission has been instructed to inquire into and make recommendations on the general policy that should be followed in order to investigate the development of the performing arts as an important means for the cultural enrichment of the population of South Africa and to place them on a sound footing, with special reference to certain aspects. I want to say immediately that I took note with great appreciation of the appointment of this commission under Mr. Niemann, who is not unfamiliar to us. Sir, if one looks at paragraph (k) of the commission’s terms of reference, one sees that the commission is to inquire, inter alia, into the question of whether a possible change in the present geographical boundaries of the four regional councils of the performing arts would not bring about greater efficiency and, if so, how the boundaries should be changed to ensure this. Sir, I want to allege here this afternoon that there really are grounds for changing those boundaries in respect of a few specific aspects. I want to make it clear that I do not want to anticipate the findings of this commission, but I want to suggest that sufficient grounds exist for changing the boundaries of the regional councils in order to restrict unnecessary duplication in the administration of the regional councils and unnecessary duplication of staff to an absolute minimum. I do not think it is an unknown fact that there is a chronic shortage of trained manpower in respect of the performing arts as well. Sir, I want to ask whether we can permit ourselves the luxury in this country and whether we can justify the fact that in a town such as Cape Town, for example, there is a city orchestra, a Capab orchestra and an SABC orchestra. Instead of having three separate orchestras, all three of which give excellent service, has the time not come to have only one orchestra, which could then be developed into a much stronger one, an orchestra which would not be confined to Cape Town or the Cape Province, but which would then be able to perform over a much wider area with great efficiency. In respect of this one aspect, it is a good example one could quote. There are other examples as well where one could advocate that these boundaries should be abolished and that we should think of perhaps establishing one strong cultural body—no matter whether it falls under the SABC or under a central cultural council—which could then administer these different facets of the performing arts to the benefit of South Africa and its people. I honestly believe that the hon. the Minister will have the support of everyone, at least on this side of the House, if this commission were to recommend that the idea should be carried out.

Then, finally, I should just like to make a plea for this commission’s terms of reference to be widened in order to enable it to see to the interests of the artists themselves. You will remember that there have been pleas from time to time is this House in connection with the circumstances of our artists. I want to plead in particular that our artists should be looked after in their old age. Perhaps this is a good opportunity to instruct this commission, which is working on this particular task at this moment, also to determine in what way artists who are not necessarily employed by a regional council, but who may operate on a freelance basis, can be assisted when they reach pensionable age. [Time expired.]

Sir, I should like to draw attention to some of the other responsibilities of the hon. the Minister of National Education, such as the National Monuments Council, as well as the South African War Graves Board. To begin with the National Monuments Council, I want to say at the outset that considerable criticism is being levelled from various quarters, and particularly from scientific circles, at the way in which the appointments to this council are being made. The council’s image is regarded as being unbalanced, and not really representative of the various scientific disciplines which ought in fact to be represented on it. It is the Minister’s privilege to appoint not less than seven members, as the Act provides. At present the council consists of approximately 20 members, under the chairmanship of Mr. Justice M. R. de Kock. Of the 20 members there are approximately five historians and two archivists, in other words seven people with an historical background. However, there is only one social anthropologist and one zoologist, and no botanist represented on that council. Is this not perhaps the reason why there are so few national botanical monuments? We know of course about the historical oak trees of Stellenbosch and Swellendam, about the baobab trees of the Northern Transvaal, the modjadji cycads of the Northern Transvaal, the Welwitschias of South West Africa and possibly, too, those beautiful camphor trees of Vergelegen and a few others, but botanically speaking there is a vast field still lying fallow, and there is still a great deal of work which has to be done in that direction before we will really have covered that field properly. There are numerous examples of exceptional trees, such as old camel-thorn trees, yellow wood and stink-wood trees, to which a history is attached and which are in fact a national heritage that ought to be represented.

Then I want to go further and say that South Africa, as far as I know, is probably one of the countries with the most important archaeological and palaeontological heritages in the world. We are known for having produced such men as Prof. Broome, Dart, Tobias and others, who made a tremendous contribution to the expansion of our knowledge of the origins of man, and to the discovery and description of Australo pitheune and Plesianthropus, etc., here in South Africa. But in spite of this pioneering work in the field of archaeology, there is, as far as I know, only one archaeologist represented on this council, according to the list of capabilities and qualifications of the people represented on it. In July of last year the hon. the Minister appointed ten new members to this council, and among these there was not a single archaeologist. There was one palaeontologist, but not a single archaeologist. In Kimberlerly, for the Free State and the Northern Cape region, a municipal publicity official has been appointed, no one knows why, while in Kimberley there are two qualified archaeologists, a museum director as well as an ethnologist.

I should like to know from the hon. the Minister on what basis these appointments are made, for there is no evidence that this person has any particular interest in the historical background. He was not a member of the local historical association. I think he quite probably became a subscriber to the museum recently. I should like to know on what merit these people are appointed, and particularly as far as this specific appointment for that area is concerned, an area which I know very well and an area to which I attach great value, a neglected area. If one considers that all applications for permits to commence archaeological excavations have to be approved by this council, that the export of all archaeological objects also has to be approved by this council, and that there is only one archaeologist who has to represent this entire discipline throughout South Africa, then that representation to my mind seems rather distorted and unbalanced.

Political appointments.

It is being said that most of these appointments are political appointments, This is the kind of argument which one hears in scientific circles, not from this House or from this party. People who move in those circles have to hear these complaints, and I think it is necessary for the hon. the Minister to know that the image of his council is not what it ought to be, and that it is his responsibility to do something about it. But in addition, as the Act stands at present the hon. the Minister is really not able to fulfil his obligations to the country, particularly not the obligation of ensuring the effective preservation of that national heritage. Four years ago the museum council asked for the Act to be expanded so as to preserve all submarine objects of archaeological historical interest, but as the Act stands at present I do not think that the Minister is really in a position to deal with that aspect effectively. We know about the various Portuguese stone crosses which have been discovered, some of them in the ocean, and about the beacon planted by the Dutch East India Company which was recently discovered in the Langebaan lagoon. We still remember the dredging work which was done on the Merenstein and the Middelburg in the Saldanha Bay area, and that some of these coins were sold at public auctions by private individuals who acquired the privilege of undertaking this kind of excavation work.

Sir. I regard these as being objects of national public value which should not belong to an individual. I heard hair-raising stories of the underwater damage done by suction pumps, and how valuable Chinese crockery had been destroyed through being sucked up into the pipes, because the people doing the excavation work had not been properly trained. I should prefer to see those wrecked ships remaining there until properly qualified professional submarine archaeologists are able to do the excavation work in a responsible manner, so that those national treasures may be preserved for the nation in cultural-historical museums, instead of falling into the hands of private owners and being sold at auctions. I regard it as being the responsibility of the hon. the Minister to ensure that those treasures are preserved for South Africa, and remain here in South Africa.

There is another aspect in regard to archaeological excavations. With the tremendous development which is taking place in South Africa it has become necessary for a unit for archaeological rescue operations to be established to inspect all excavations at which interesting finds of old cannon barrels, coins and old buildings are uncovered. At this moment excavations are in progress in Adderley Street, where such finds are being uncovered. Such finds should be examined, recorded and photographed carefully, so that we are able to know what is happening at such excavations. Right in front of us here, at this moment, an historical heritage which is of importance to many people, is being destroyed. At present historical remnants are being dug up and destroyed at Melkbos Strand. During the construction of the Sishen/Saldanha railway line, there were tales of Bushmen and Hottentot graves which had been uncovered and destroyed. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, the hon. member for Benoni raised a very important matter when he spoke about the preservation of our historical monuments. I am very sorry that time does not permit me to deal with that important matter, too, one which is also near to my heart.

A few days ago—to be exact, on 8 May —it was 50 years ago that Afrikaans was elevated to the status of being one of the official languages of our country. In a few months’ lime we shall be celebrating a great language festival at Paarl, centred around the inauguration of the monument and the commemoration of the establishment of the “Genootskap van Regte Afrikaners” 100 years ago. In this great year of the Afrikaans language, it is only fitting that we should consider spreading the wings of our language wider and moving outwards to a greater extent. The development of Afrikaans is, in fact, one of the linguistic miracles of the world’s history. I think that in the development of Afrikaans, we have a story to inspire and grip the imagination. The French say that France’s most valuable export product is the French language. They are very proud that 200 million people speak that language. Every Frenchman is very proud of his language. It is not chauvinistic to be very proud of one’s language, the language in which one thinks, dreams and lives, the language in which one expresses one’s deepest emotions.

I want to speak about Afrikaans as an export product. More valuable than the deciduous fruit and the gold and diamonds we export is the product of our heart, soul and spirit: our own wonderful Afrikaans. More than anything else it establishes the fact that we have our own identity, it is the proof that we have a right to exist in this country, it is the proof that we have contributed a cadence of our own, a dimension of our own to the cultural treasures of the world. Even before the First World War, the late Professor Besselaar pleaded that we should forge closer cultural ties with the rest of the world. He called it “the refined diplomacy”. Through English we have contact with 500 million English-speaking people throughout the world. It is a mighty cultural treasure which has already opened many doors to us. Through English we receive, but through Afrikaans we also have something to contribute, something to give.

I want to indicate very cursorily what is already being done for the furtherance of Afrikaans. I want to plead with due deference that whereas we are now on the threshold of the second century of Afrikaans, our activities will acquire more momentum and our programme to publicise Afrikaans will grow in extent and depth. The decision to establish a chair of Afrikaans at the University of Rhodesia was a definite step forward. I do not know how matters are progressing as far as that chair is concerned, but I see in the Budget that an amount of R30 000 has been voted for that purpose this year. Years ago there was a chair of Afrikaans at the University of Berlin, too, which was, unfortunately, terminated. In Amsterdam there is a chair at the Congregational University which is vacant at the moment, but which is still managed on a part-time basis by Mrs. Lijp-hart-Bezuidenhout.

We must aim at the establishment of more chairs of Afrikaans at foreign universities. I think that this, viz. contributing towards establishing chairs there, is something which could grip the imagination of our service organizations. I wondered whether our cultural attachés abroad could not endeavour to arrange for Afrikaans to be taught as a subdivision of departments teaching Germanic languages, whether we could not succeed in introducing a chair of Afrikaans there. Our cultural attachés could perhaps undertake a worldwide survey to ascertain at which universities there are departments in Germanic languages.

Just now the hon. member for Johannesburg West spoke very ardently on the autonomy of universities. Universities insist on their autonomy and are very proud of it, and we cannot force ourselves on them and ask that Afrikaans be taught there. I do believe that we could make contact, at a high level and with the necessary finesse, with these people. I think we could do this by means of donating books to universities where Germanic languages are taught. We could do it toy means of visits by our own linguists. J see in the Budget that an amount of R1 000 has been voted for travelling grants to scholars. To me this sounds like a trifling amount and I wonder whether the hon. the Minister cannot do something more in this regard.

Then I have a very important recommendation: Has the time not corns for us to consider holding an international congress on linguistics here in our country? I think this would be a unique opportunity for our own linguists to have discussions with their colleagues from all over the world. I believe that our linguists have a thrilling and stimulating story to tell to those people about the beginnings and the development of this language; the youngest in the world. I shall not venture an opinion as to who should organize that congress. It could be the Academy, the Minister’s department or our universities—it does not matter to me—but I think it is important, since money is necessary for such a congress, that the hon. the Minister should perhaps consider voting money for such a congress on linguistics in a future Budget.

The hon. member for Bloemfontein North was speaking just now about the contribution towards détente made by the SABC through its external service. The external service of Radio South Africa has contributed greatly towards publicising Afrikaans abroad during the six years since these language courses were introduced. Already during the past six years, no fewer than 4 500 students have enrolled for the language courses and received Afrikaans book prizes. In the target area of the external service, namely the English, German, French. Dutch and Portuguese-speaking world, there are students who enrol for these Afrikaans courses. These people find Afrikaans a very easy language to learn. Some time ago I read something that was said by a Norwegian linguist. He is a person who taught himself Afrikaans. He said that Afrikaans was a very easy language to learn, particularly for the people in north-western Europe. He also said that excepting French-speaking people, but including the English-speaking people, Afrikaans was to them the easiest language to learn. Then he made this very important statement: Afrikaans is the Esperanto of the North Sea. This language, with its simplified form system and its Germanic roots, should most decidedly be brought to the attention of the world. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, in the second part of my reply I intend dealing primarily with matters pertaining to television and radio. I want to begin with the speech made by the hon. member for Wynberg, not because it was such an important speech, but because the hon. member unfortunately cannot be here tomorrow and he would like to know what I have to say with reference to his speech. Before coming to that, however, I want to emphasize that television has, since 5 May 1975, been an accomplished fact. Whether it took a long time to introduce, as the hon. member for Umhlanga maintained, or whether it could have happened sooner, is not relevant now. The fact remains that television is here. We can now see what the implications of the technical aspects of television are, and we can see what the possibilities, even at this stage, of some of the presentations are, even though we still do not have the actual programmes.

It struck me that during this debate no one mentioned that Springbok Radio was 25 years old on 1 May 1975. I take it that I am speaking on behalf of everyone when I say that I not only congratulate the SABC on the introduction of television, but also on the celebration of Springbok Radio’s 25th year of existence. This is the service which made it possible for full-fledged Afrikaans and English cultural programmes to be introduced and in that respect we really have much to be thankful for.

The hon. member for Wynberg related his speech to the statement I made in this House on 27 April 1971 on behalf of the Government. He called me to account for certain aspects of that statement, and some of his colleagues applauded him while he did so. If the hon. member took the trouble to page back to the statement I made at the time why did he not also read what has been said since, in all the subsequent debates in this House?

He is too stupid. It took him ten years to get his degree; he studied his father bankrupt.

I have consistently, during every session, reported on the progress that had been made by the SABC in respect of those aspects which are its responsibility. There are two matters in this regard which we have to clear up. The task of the SABC, and my task as the responsible Minister, is to establish a television service. It is not our task to solve and eliminate all the problems attendant upon this matter. That is the one point which the hon. member obviously overlooked. He quoted from the statement, and protected himself by saying that he was omitting parts of it. If I had asked the hon. member to read further and more fully he would have had to approach the matter from another angle, and for that reason he had to protect himself by saying that he was omitting certain things.

He only had ten minutes.

The technical advisory committee consisted of the most eminent and best experts in our country from all the various branches of these and related fields. As may be seen from the same statement, the committee was established with the following object—

The hon. member mentioned the various aspects of this matter. In the first place the hon. member asked me very specifically how matters stood in regard to the staff problem. For that he had recourse to a statement issued by the Postmaster-General. As I have said, I reported fully at every debate we have conducted since 1971, on what the SABC has been doing to train people for the service it has to render. I am glad to be able to say in general today that the SABC has the key personnel it requires to offer this service. I want to mention a few particulars, since the hon. member has asked for these. Apart from the key personnel already available, the training of the SABC’s own staff is continuing unremittingly. The fifth television course for programme and operating staff terminated at the end of April, and the first training course for television news staff has also been held. As I have said, this training is continuing. The necessary staff for the technical, programme and operating sector are being trained. I have a ready stated in the past that the SABC ensured in good time that persons who had to receive engineering training, those who had the intellectual ability to receive such training, have been sent to universities at which they may undergo their training. In addition technicians of the SABC are receiving their training at the Witwatersrand College for Technical Education. In fact, the SABC has, from its own resources, drawn and trained people to such an extent that it is able to render and maintain this service. I think this replies to the hon. member’s question on the matter of training.

As for the problems which are being experienced by commerce and industry with regard to their staff, I appealed to them repeatedly and said that my department had ensured that the necessary trained staff was available at the various technical colleges to offer these courses. I made an appeal to them to send their people there for the necessary training. Let me inform the hon. members that many of them reacted to my request, and have had their people trained. In fact, they are still being trained. I take it that there are still those who would rather batten on other people by luring their staff away than making the necessary provision themselves. I want to emphasize, however, that those peoples’ problems are not my problems. My responsibility was to establish the service and to ensure that the staff and the facilities for providing training were there. I may say, with a clear conscience hat this has been done.

The hon. member went on to discuss the financial implications. He asked whether I had co-ordinated these. I want to tell him that the technical advisory committee submitted a full report on each of those aspects he mentioned. That report was transmitted to the SABC as far as it affected the SABC, and I also referred it to the Cabinet. The Cabinet established a television committee from among its own number, under the chairmanship of the hon. the Leader of this House. Let me inform you that the various aspects were dealt with there. I want to quote to the hon. member another passage from this statement. The hon. member and the hon. member for Durban Central in his speech under the Education Vote, referred to the alleged “dilly-dallying” in regard to the preparation of television. Therefore my reply on this score also applies to the latter hon. member. Immediately after the various terms of reference which the hon. member quoted from the statements, it is stated, in point No. 6—

Here we therefore have the answer now to the reproaches which were levelled at me. These are matters which do not fall under my department. The Cabinet entrusted them specifically to the department of Industries. How dealers and manufacturers can say at this late stage, when they are already beginning to make profits from their products, that they still do not know to whom they should turn, is beyond me. This arrangement was made from the very outset, and they negotiated with the secretary for Industries as well as with the Secretary for Commerce on these problems. Therefore I do not think the standpoint they are now adopting by alleging that they do not know to whom they should turn is a fair one.

The hon. member also discussed the financial aspects. I want to say that the money which has been spent on this television service has been calculated and controlled very carefully and precisely. After all, R106 million is not an inconsiderable amount of money. If there is any hon. member who thinks that we can introduce a television service relatively cheaply, and who consequently expects a cheap service, he is not a realist. The hon. member for Umhlanga also referred to this in last years debate, and I replied at the time that a single transmitter of the BBC in London reaches a few million people, perhaps more than we are able to reach with our entire service, if it is introduced on a countrywide basis. Then surely you can understand, Sir, that our service has of necessity to be an expensive service owing to the vastness of our country and our sparse population. Therefore we cannot expect to get it cheaply. Besides, we also had the problem that the newspapers, both Afrikaans and English-language, protested against the introduction of advertisements because they alleged that it was going to prejudice them to too great an extent. Initially this service will, therefore, as has been announced, been introduced for two years without spot advertisements. As from 1978, however, a limited number of spot advertisements will have to be allowed owing to the tremendous financial implications. Surely these are all matters which are generally known.

Licence fees were also discussed. An amount of R36 has been determined by the Cabinet as the licence fee per cent. We may argue about whether this is a great deal of money. All I can say here is that when we began to consider the financial implications, an amount of R24 was thought of. But surely it would have been foolish to have started with a licence fee of R24, only to have increased it a year or two later to R30 or R36. Then licence holders would have had the right to say that the SABC had misled them by attracting them with cheap licence fees, and then suddenly increasing them. I want to say that there are very few things in this country which are increased as seldom as radio licences are. We decided on this amount of R36 because we had to take into consideration that there would inevitably be increases in other sectors. I am of the opinion that we can compare ourselves with Australia and am therefore referring to a report the other day—I cannot vouch for its veracity —in which one of the television correspondents of a major South African newspaper said that at R36 per licence we are on a par with Australia. This is a country with which we can, to a certain extent, compare ourselves, although they have a far larger population than we have, and they have had television for a long time. I therefore want to inform the hon. member for Wynberg that the technical advisory committee, as well as the Cabinet committee, together with many other bodies, has done excellent work in preparation for this service which we now have. He referred to one other matter, namely to concessionary licences for persons over the age of 70. There were other colleagues of the hon. member, for example the hon. member for Umhlanga, who also advocated concessions for old-age homes and hotels so that there could be a set in each room. This is a matter on which finality cannot be given at this stage. The service is still in its initial stages, and we know what the cost of establishing and maintaining this service is. Therefore I do not think that we can, at this stage already, expect finality in regard to such matters as concessionary licences. I think that I have, with that, replied to all the questions asked by the hon. member for Wynberg.

The hon. member for Yeoville said that we should endeavour to ensure that television should not be for the élite only. I agree with the hon. member. The more people for whom we can make watching television possible, the easier it will be to keep our people informed and the greater the extent to which we will be able to provide them with entertainment. In fact, it could hold many other advantages for them if they are able to afford a television set. However, there are many things in life which are the prerogative of the élite, the people who have the money. The State will do everything in its means to bring television within the reach of everyone, but one reaches a limit past which one simply cannot go. The hon. member also asked where we stood and what we thought about communal viewing localities, and in that regard he specifically had the Bantu residential areas in mind. This is a very excellent idea, an idea which we have already discussed frequently, inter alia also in view of experience gained in the past with radio diffusion services in the Witwatersrand Bantu residential areas. The fact of the matter is that not all the houses in the Bantu residential areas have been provided with electricity, not even in all the most exclusive Bantu residential areas of Johannesburg. It is no use the one body shifting its responsibility on to another. This is a matter of capital outlay, and in the first place it is the responsibility of the municipal authority concerned. When I think how the Opposition has at times complained about the service levy the Government has imposed on transportation services, train services, sewerage, etc., for our Bantu residential areas, then I must say that I hardly have the courage to suggest to the Cabinet that we increase the levy even further, so that it may become possible for these people to be provided with power points, so that they may also acquire television sets.