Mr. Chairman, now that this debate is drawing to an end, I think it is fitting for the question to be asked: Can the Transkei exist as an independent state after 26 October? There is a second question, namely: Have new influential and decisive dimensions shifted to the primary level over the past decade to afford new backing and new support to the NP’s concept of separate development as an alternative to the UP’s policy eventual power-sharing and the PRP’s policy of eventual Black majority government? That question can be answered with a resounding “yes”. This “yes” is based on three aspects.

The first is that within the concept of separate development we have established the component of a geo-political line. When I refer to the establishment of a geo-political line, then we are on firm ground and we have history on our side. The geo-political line implies far more than a geographic abode. A geo-political line implies political power. It implies the free right of every people, on its own initiative and without being restricted, to develop and mobilize its own hidden, latent and potential creative physical and mental powers. By establishing a geo-political line we are not defying history; this is realpolitiek.

The whole political drama that has taken place in Africa over the past two decades has been intimately bound up with the decisive and important role played by the geo-political line. Without the geo-political line the awakening and the development of nationalism would have been impossible throughout history. I refer to Cyprus, to Scotland, and to the conflict between Russia and China with regard to geo-political lines. The old conflict between the Kashmir and the Punjab in India has proved beyond the shadow of a doubt that no political development can escape the significance of the geo-political line. I merely put the question whether, in our efforts to normalize our relations with the Coloureds, we shall ever succeed in ignoring the significance of the geo-political line.

The second aspect on which this resounding “yes” is based, is a new dimension which, like a new heavyweight, has appeared on the world scene over the past two decades, namely economic interdependence. This is a force majeure which has woven worldwide interstate relations into totally new patterns. Economic interdependence has given the Third World and the Fourth World their significance and their present form. Resources and raw materials, of which South Africa and the Transkei have an inexhaustible arsenal, make of economic interdependence a mighty dimension, a decisive dimension, within this new inter-state relationship which will come into being after 26 October 1976 with regard to the Transkei. Economic interdependence, the possession of resources and the sharing of those resources among states has virtually neutralized the significance of old historical instruments of power.

If you reach for the weapon, then I reach for the raw material. If you reach for economic power, then I reach for oil. It converts virtually every conceivable raw material into a powerful political weapon. We in South Africa have inexhaustible energy resources. We have untapped technological resources. We have raw materials. We have manpower. We have food. We have everything. We have an arsenal from which we can draw. And that arsenal cannot be exhausted by the Transkei or by us. These resources are our guarantee that behind that geo-political line both can exist, one on this side and one on the other. These resources and this economic interdependence will convert the geo-political line into a permanent border of peace.

The third basis—and I want to let this suffice—is the new stream of technology which is flowing across geo-political borders. This will contribute towards our taking the heat out of those problems which will still exist after the independence of the Transkei. I have in mind more rapid transport and the emotional garb in which migrant labour is clothed today in this country and elsewhere. We shall strip it and restrict to a minimum the evils which migrant labour involves. Our economy is not the only one which makes use of migrant labour. At this moment there are more than 2,1 million migrant labourers in West Germany from various parts of the world. Let me conclude by saying that the pressure of the Bantu on the Whites in the White areas is lessening. The pressure is becoming less. In 1960 there were 3 million more Bantu than Whites in the White area. In 1974 it was a little more than 1 million, viz. 2 million fewer Bantu in the White areas than was the case five years ago. [Interjections.] The figure is correct. That hon. member must go and see for himself and not rely on my brains. Sir, I see a strong two-way stream between the economy of the White area and that of the Transkei after 26 October and I predict a drop in temperature with regard to the problems we shall still be facing. Sir, I am once again dreaming dreams; I dream because if one stops dreaming, then one is like the United Party; they cannot dream any more and when one can no longer dream, one is finished. I am full of courage and I have great faith in the fact that our policy of separate development, as it will come to fruition on 26 October in the form of the independence of the Transkei, is a remarkable and scientifically well-founded policy which will be capable of standing the test of time.

Mr. Chairman, if I may hurriedly reply to the speech of the hon. member for Carletonville, I simply want to say that he merely confirmed what I had suspected, which is that he is indeed living in a dream world and is not facing the realities of the matter. I should be glad if the hon. member for Carletonville could spell out to us once and for all what he has in mind with geo-political lines in the case of the Coloureds. It is no use his venturing a shot in the dark and simply leaving the matter at that. He should tell us exactly what his views are with regard to the Coloureds and the geopolitical lines he wants to draw.

We are not dealing with the Coloureds now, but with the Bantu.

In the third place I just want to say with regard to his reference to economic interdependence, that it is very clear that economic interdependence may well be a factor in accomplishing sound political relations. However, this does not follow as a matter of course and the existence of interdependence is no guarantee for sound political relations. We see this in southern Africa. The other day we learnt of the statements made by Sir Seretse Khama, the President of Botswana. I say this is no guarantee, because interdependence is a matter with differences in degree, because more than one country is always involved in the interdependence of any particular country. I leave it at that.

As the hon. member for Carletonville rightly said—he and I usually get on very well—we have come to the end of a very important debate. To my mind certain main points have emerged from this debate. We have again had a very clear statement, as we have just had from the hon. member, of the philosophy and ideology of separate development. In addition to this there has been the development of the homelands. I am grateful for the positive note we have had in this regard and I want to state very clearly that our own standpoint in this regard has also been stated very clearly, and that is that we do indeed welcome any steps which promote the development of the homelands.

The third main point has been the independence of the Transkei, and some of the implications of that independence, in particular the question of the citizenship of Xhosa-speaking people who are permanently resident outside the Transkei. In addition to this we have dealt with the position of the Whites who are resident inside the Transkei, as well as the question of their citizenship and economic prospects. In the fourth place we have discussed the matter of the purchase of farms in order to carry into effect the so-called consolidation proposals which Parliament passed here last year. The fifth question was that of the Bantu in the cities. In this regard we have once again had a repetition of the ideological views of our colleagues opposite. This, of course, involves the question of housing. Because we are extremely concerned about this matter, as the hon. member for Jeppe has indicated, I am very sorry that the hon. the Deputy Minister has not entered this debate before me.

Since we have come to the end of this debate, I ask myself what positive aspects have emerged in the course of this debate. As far as I am concerned, the only significant rays of light have been the emphasis placed on the economic development of the homelands. We have also had the aspect raised by the hon. member for Innesdal, viz. that we should find a different basis for financing the social and other services for the Bantu in the cities. Those services should not be financed from liquor profits. There has also been the hon. the Minister’s statement that employers may possibly be placed in a position to build also family homes in urban areas. I hope he will apply this to the Western Cape as well. We have also had the hon. the Minister’s announcement concerning the committee of inquiry into race discrimination. That committee’s report was being considered, he said, by the Cabinet at the present time, and I trust that that report will be made available to everyone before long as this is a matter which certainly does not concern only the Government. There has also been the hon. the Minister’s announcement that the recommendations of the committee of inquiry into influx control are being implemented. This, too, is a matter which goes much further than simply the officials and the implementation of measures. This is a matter of the greatest concern to this House and to large numbers of people in South Africa. Therefore, I want to ask the hon. the Minister to tell us what the changes are that have been recommended by the committee. Finally, we have dealt with the methods concerning the purchase of farms and the financing of such purchases. I think it was the hon. member for Aliwal in particular who made a very positive contribution in this regard.

These, to my mind, are the only positive points which have emerged from this debate up to now. There are two groups of people for whom this debate has held no promise.

The United Party and the Progs.

The one group is the Whites in the Transkei, and here I am referring specifically to their position and their interests there. The second group is the Blacks permanently settled outside the homelands, particularly in our urban areas. I wish I had the ability to give expression to the degree of frustration and bitterness among our urban Bantu. We may behave like ostriches if we wish, but in my own mind there is not the slightest doubt that tremendous frustration and bitterness exist. This debate, however, has not offered those people a single word of hope. There has not been a single message of encouragement. There has not even been a sympathetic attitude from the side of the Government. I hope the hon. the Deputy Minister will be able to bring a little more light into the darkness prevailing here. I also want to refer to the speech which the hon. member for False Bay made yesterday in connection with the squatters at Crossroads. I know what the legal position is. According to law those people are here illegally but there has been no sympathetic approach to the human tragedy involved. To want to do away with that problem simply by saying that those people are here illegally, is no solution. This Parliament may make any law it wishes. Parliament may prescribe that we are to leave our homes tomorrow. But is the fact that Parliament may make any law, a criterion to apply? The hon. members maintain that the people are here illegally, but I want to put this very simple question: If, in the thirties, at the time of the great depression, the Afrikaner people were to have been told (a) you may go to Cape Town or Johannesburg only if you have a permit; (b) you will not be allowed to bring your family with you; (c) you will not be allowed to own a house there nor may you buy or build your own home there, how would the Afrikaners have reacted? However, we now try to lay down those conditions in respect of people who are being forced by similar circumstances to move to the urban areas. We simply cannot get away from that fact.

The biggest disappointment to me was the speech of the hon. member opposite who mentioned express transport as a solution to our problems and attached the labour zoning idea to this. Evidently the hon. member is not aware of the fact that there are people who have made a study of express transport and evidently he does not know either that immeasurable problems would arise for us if we were to apply labour zoning, as applicable to our Bantu, to the Bantu of the Transkei. Shall we be able to tell the people of the Transkei that Cape Town is the only city to which they may go for employment? Shall we be able to tell the people of Lesotho that Vereeniging is the only place to which they may go for employment? The hon. member is living in a dream world, completely removed from reality.

I want to touch on another matter. I refer to the question of citizenship, and as I understand the speech of the hon. the Minister, he said that the Transkei would pass legislation in terms of which the Xhosa-speaking people outside the Transkei would become citizens of the Transkei so that they would be given Transkeian citizenship automatically. He also said that if the Transkei were to refuse to regard certain people as citizens of the Transkei, such people would be in a situation of statelessness. This is how I understand the approach of the Government. According to my interpretation of the legislation, no other legislature than this very Parliament can deprive someone of his South African citizenship. This applies to my South African citizenship as well as that of the hon. the Minister. We may do what we like, but only this Parliament, and no other institution can deprive us of our citizenship. Section 2(5) of the Bantu Homelands Citizenship Act, 1970, provides very clearly that citizenship of a territorial authority area will not detract from a Bantu person’s citizenship of South Africa. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, it seems to me as though I have to close the doors now since we have come to the end of the time allotted to hon. members for this debate. I indicated yesterday that I should like to address the hon. member for Jeppe in connection with the matter of housing affairs which he had raised. As I go along I shall also discuss points raised by the hon. member for Edenvale, who has just resumed his seat. The hon. member for Edenvale accused us of seemingly having an unsympathetic approach to the problems of the Bantu in certain situations and made specific reference to the squatter problem which we were experiencing here in the Cape.

The hon. member is near-sighted.

The very way in which we are dealing with that problem, is proof of the fact that we do have sympathy. If that hon. member thinks that the squatters’ presence here has solved their problems, and that we should simply allow them to continue living here, he is making a mistake. The very steps we are taking are aimed at solving the problems and misery resulting from their presence here. This is the sympathy we have. As far as those hon. members are concerned, the more they slip on the political road, the more they think there are instant solutions and the more they think one can simply allow certain situations to remain as they are. An attitude of this kind actually gets us nowhere.

Concerning the hon. member for Jeppe, I want to say that while I do not want to be unfriendly towards him, I should nevertheless point out that in his whole speech—I have a copy of it available—there is only one statement which is correct, and that is that there is a housing shortage. As I go along I shall prove to the hon. member why I am saying this and that certain things which he wants to have done, have been in existence for several years and are being implemented by the department. The hon. member said we possibly had one of the darkest pictures with regard to housing that the Government had ever had since coming into power. But has the hon. member forgotten that we inherited pitch black darkness? If he speaks of “dark” now, with which words would he describe the conditions which we inherited at that time and which we have since cleared up? I think his memory is very short. I do not wish to—nor shall I—minimize the problem which we have with the shortage of housing. It is a problem to which we shall have to give serious attention before it gets any bigger.

Having said this, I do want to add that we are nevertheless performing wonders in the meantime. Allow me to mention three facts only. In the homeland towns of Umlazi and Ntuzuma 23 000 dwelling units have been provided over a period of approximately 15 years. Now hon. members will say that this in the homelands and not in the White area. Therefore, allow me to add to this at once, that if we had not made that provision in homeland towns, most of those people would, what is more, have lived in the White area. At the moment 1 000 dwelling units have been approved for Bloemfontenin. In Mabopane East and Mabopane West 7 500 dwelling units have been provided over the past six years. Therefore, the programme is continuing all the time. Let me come to a matter touched on by the hon. member for Jeppe. He referred to the standard, the quality, of the houses provided. This is a matter to which constant attention is being given, and the standards are being improved. An agreement has been entered into with the National Building Research Institute to conduct research into this very matter of standards for us. From the side of the department we are making a financial donation to them. They have experts in their service who have worked at UNO and who have conducted research in Africa and in South America. The experts maintain that South Africa is leading the world in the field of the handling of sub-economic housing and the upgrading of squatter conditions. The hon. member should remember that it is of no avail if we only provide for a select group of people and give them everything while neglecting those who are lower down on the list. We must see to both groups.

I should like to refer to the improvement scheme. I do not think the hon. member referred to it. The improvement scheme already existed when the previous home-ownership scheme was still in operation, in 1968 when the original home-ownership scheme was withdrawn, a special circular was sent to local authorities stating that the improvement scheme would not be cancelled, but would be continued. It still exists today.

With reference to the provision of housing by employers, the hon. member said—

This is not a suggestion which has just been made. It is a measure which has been in existence for a long time. It has been in existence for the past five or six years. This measure has been in existence, first with regard to single housing and now with regard to family housing as well.

The question of tax rebate may have slipped the hon. the Minister’s mind as he had to devote his attention to quite a number of other matters which had been brought to his attention. However, concessions do exist in the form of tax rebates. Twenty-five per cent of the money spent, to a maximum of R2 500 per employer, may be deducted for income tax purposes in terms of section 11(t) of the Income Tax Act. The hon. member said that if only we would make these concessions and would do things of this kind, he believed the housing problem could be solved.

No, I said it would help. This will not solve it completely.

The hon. member said—

Yes, “some opportunity”

Those measures already exist. The hon. member should assist in seeing to it that people carry out these measures, so that we may in fact make progress in the field of housing.

As far as home ownership schemes are concerned, the hon. member said with reference to a prominent Black man in Soweto—

Listen carefully now—

He may have it for 30 years with the “strings attached” and still have the option to renew it for a further 30 years. This does exist, and the hon. the Minister yesterday gave the guarantee concerning the privileges in terms of section 10, something on which I agree with him. Someone who has a certificate of citizenship, ought to enjoy greater privileges and greater advantages than the Bantu who do not have this in the White area.

Methods are constantly being sought for the more effective financing of housing in the White areas. The hon. member for Innesdal also referred to this. He made special mention of the fact that it worried him that administration boards had to fill their purses by constantly stimulating liquor sales. I assume I understood the hon. member correctly, i.e. that he meant that Bantu beer played such an important part in the socio-cultural scheme of things of the Bantu that that type of liquor should still be sold to the Bantu.

I did not say it!

I am referring to the hon. member for Innesdal. The hon. member asked us not to leave it at that, but to seek other methods of financing. I agree with the hon. member. One of the things he mentioned, was the fact that the Bantu himself should make a bigger contribution as he had progressed considerably on the road to better remuneration. This is true. I want to state clearly that I agree whole-heartedly with the hon. member. The days are over when the Bantu, also as regards housing, had to hold out his hands imploringly for the Government and the White man to drop everything into them. There are Bantu who can provide for themselves. The hon. member pointed out that there were Black people who were even prepared to spend R10 000 on housing. There are some Black people who can do this. Those who can provide for themselves, will have to do so. They can also borrow money from private financial institutions. Those who cannot make it on their own, will still be provided for by the State.

However, there are other methods, too, which are being investigated, methods which are aimed at improving financing in order to create a better housing set-up for the Black man in the urban areas. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, since we have now reached the end of the discussion of this Vote, and before I react to the speeches by two or three individual members, I should like to convey a word of thanks to hon. members on the Government side in the first place, for the way in which they have participated in this debate. Hon. members on this side have indeed painted a very fine picture of the activities of my department to date, a picture of the past. Some hon. members based their speeches on the thought that I have occupied this post for ten years now. Others went back further than those ten years. I want to give hon. members the assurance that the picture they have painted of the activities of this department over the past decade was a very clear one. However, hon. members on the Government side did not merely look back. They looked ahead, too, and painted a picture of the path that lay ahead. One can only reconnoitre the road ahead if one also takes into account where one has come from. That is why the past is important and that, too, is what hon. members on this side of the House have done.

It would take an unnecessary amount of time to refer to each member separately. However, throughout the debate I have listened to every hon. member’s speech and kept a note of the central theme of every speech made by hon. members on this side of the House. Not a single member on the Government side participated in this debate in anything but a meaningful way. Indeed, once again I was filled with tremendous pride to hear the positive contributions made by hon. members on the Government side. It was clear that they clearly perceived the wider dimension and the wider perspective—to use the words of the hon. member for Carletonville—of these developments. This ought to be an inspiration to all of us. This in fact is the picture painted by hon. members on this side of the House, to which the hon. member for Edenvale referred a moment ago. The hon. member for Edenvale—I shall deal with his speech later—summed up the course of the debate. According to him one of the rays of light in this regard was the development of the homelands which was outlined here. Without exception this was pointed to by members on our side of the House only. I did not hear a single member opposite say anything positive or constructive in connection with the development of the Bantu homelands. What we did have from them—and I am not arguing about the fact that the Opposition has the right to act in this way—was analytical questions. However, there was nothing constructive. All they did was to carp and level criticism, some of which was false as regards the presentation of what this important department does. Hon. members will see that the same thing will happen when the next Vote—Bantu Education—comes up for discussion. What do these two departments do together? If hon. members look at the amounts voted for the two departments, departments which are run by one Minister and which get some of the largest amounts in the budget, they can well ask what is being done with these amounts. What do we create with the money we get? To this I want to say that I am proud that a true picture is painted by hon. members on my side of the House. It is a pity that the Opposition did not do the same. As I have already said, they have the right to speak analytically and make inquiries. They made use of this right. However I am of the opinion that the Opposition has a wider duty to perform, particularly with regard to an important matter such as this.

I should like to say a few more words in connection with the minor difference of opinion between the hon. member for Griqualand East and myself last night with reference to the information I furnished in reply to the question put by the hon. member for East London City. I have no quarrel with the hon. member for East London City. He understood me correctly throughout. However, it is the hon. member for Griqualand East who understood me wrongly. What was the argument about? It was about the availability of money in the present financial year for the purchase of properties—not only businesses, but all kinds of properties—from Whites in the Transkei. It could be shops at the outposts, it could be business enterprises in the towns and it could be buildings or unimproved plots. It could be any kind of property from Whites in the Transkei. I mentioned the amount—the hon. member mentioned it himself—which was being voted for this in the budget. The hon. member pointed out that the amount was smaller than last year. I added that additional revenue was to be included. This was revenue which amounted to about R800 000 in the year ending March 1975. I estimated this amount because I did not have the data before me. I added that the amount could be more or less the same this year. The hon. member for East London City, and the hon. member for Griqualand East in particular, had some reservations about the amount I mentioned subsequently, when the hon. member asked me a second time, I rose and referred him to para. 8.1. of the Auditor-General’ s book. I did not mention the paragraph then, but I do so now. I estimated the amount at about R800 000, but it appears that I underestimated the amount. That is where the hon. member misunderstood me. I said that I underestimated the amount, because the amount furnished by the Auditor-General was R831 484. I have now eliminated the uncertainty in this regard by quoting the exact figure for the year ending March 1975. The hon. member may take it that it will probably be about the same in the present year, perhaps more. I have pointed out all these things.

Subsequently the hon. member came along and quoted para. 8.2.2. This is three paragraphs further on and deals with something entirely different, involving other figures. The paragraph he quoted was not in respect of the total amount. Para. 8.1 relates to the total amount and the hon. member for Griqualand East read the paragraph which deals with certain properties purchased. It only relates to commercial properties and not the total purchases. The hon. member did not give the full picture. That is the second mistake the hon. member made in his arithmetic yesterday. He admitted the one, although not as a mistake. However, it was a mistake. He argued with me about a difference as regards the amount voted for the Transkei. He put it at more than R60 million and I said that it was only about R30 million. Subsequently the hon. member admitted that he had added one figure twice. He should rather not have added one figure twice, but the correct two figures only once; he would then have obtained the correct answer. The hon. member spoke twice yesterday and in both speeches he made very serious calculating errors. And around him there is a group of people who crow and make out that he is a hero with his correct figures. That hon. member should be more careful when he quotes figures here in the House. I am now going to leave the hon. member in peace.

However, in his second speech yesterday the hon. member put a question to me which I should like to reply to now because this is the first opportunity I have had. The hon. member asked what the position of the White people in the Transkei, who are not Transkeians, would be as far as taxes were concerned. It ought to be very clear to the hon. member what the position will be there. People who earn their money in the Transkei will, of course, be subject to tax which the Transkeian Government may impose. Our officials who are there and who will remain on the establishment and payroll will not, of course, be subject to that because they will still be receiving their money from us. The other people, however, will be subject to the tax imposed by the Transkei.

I still owe the hon. member for Pinetown an answer. I see that the hon. member is not present and I take it that he has a good reason for that. I do not take it amiss of him. The hon. member put questions to me concerning problems at Ndwedwe. In the meantime I have ascertained what the position is. Those of us who have been to Pinetown and Ndwedwe will know that the topography there is very difficult, because there are gigantic ravines, valleys and rivers. It is therefore very difficult for people to travel to the office at Ndwedwe via a detour. The KwaZulu Administration realizes this. It has already been decided by the KwaZulu Administration that a sub-office ought to be established in this region near the place to which the hon. member referred so that the people can apply there for their requirements. The possibility of establishing a special district there so that the area may have its own district office has already been suggested. In the meanwhile, until such time as these things have come about, additional facilities are provided in the form of a mobile unit which travels there once a month to serve the people there locally. The authorities, therefore, understand the difficulties of the people in that area. We hope to provide better facilities presently in the form of a sub-office, and perhaps even in the form of a district office. The hon. member also pointed out to me that application forms for birth certificates for Bantu were not available. It is true that the submission of birth certificates is a requirement for the admission of children to schools. As a result there was a big rush of people who required birth certificates. The stock of forms was temporarily exhausted and a problem arose, but I believe that it has been surmounted by now.

The hon. member for Carletonville made a good speech. I have only the highest praise for it. It was an outstanding speech. It was yet another example of that positive picture which has been painted.

In his speech the hon. member for Edenvale, did, in a certain sense, do something that was useful in a small way and I want to praise him for it. In a nice, typically professorial way, as befits him at the end of the year before the examination, he gave his students a résumé of the whole two-day debate, all the main themes.

The students listened very carefully.

Is that so? Then they knew the story very well themselves. Without making any comment, the hon. member mentioned a great many things. Everything was very correct—all the themes discussed here in the debate. The theme which he started to comment on was the one to which I have just referred. That was when he mentioned the rays of light that were visible in this debate. The one ray of light which, according to him, was visible was in connection with the development which is occurring in the bantu homelands. In that connection I want to remind him of what I said a moment ago, namely that those rays of light were presented by this side of the House. The hon. member need not do it now, because he is not going to speak again, but he can come and tell me privately which of his members there, or of the members in the other little Opposition party, spoke about this ray of light, the fine economic development that there has been in the homelands. He may as well come and tell me. I should like to hear. Sir, not one of them did so. It was the hon. members on this side of the House who described that ray of light.

The hon. member also asked me about the interdepartmental investigation into influx control to which I referred. Now I want to tell the hon. member that we have given an undertaking to certain representatives of the Bantu leaders to hold a very thorough and comprehensive discussion with them. This has already been referred to in this House. I think that this has already been referred to in the past by no less a person than the hon. the Prime Minister, among others. It has been said that we want to hold discussions with the Black leaders concerning the degree to which we can bring about a revision of influx control without throwing the system overboard, but nevertheless with a view to modernization and improvement. Before we have completed those discussions with the Bantu, I do not want to discuss our views on changes in influx control here. I should like to talk to them first. I think the hon. member will appreciate my furnishing this explanation now.

The hon. member went on to say that for two groups of people the debate seemed to be of very little use. One of those groups, he said, was the Transkeian Whites. The hon. member nods his head in agreement; I can almost hear it over here. Sir, what does the hon. member mean when he states that there was nothing in the debate for the Whites of the Transkei? He is now climbing on the same old bandwagon as the “selling down the river ” bandwagon we heard about yesterday. He does so in order to intimate that there is nothing in this debate for the Whites of the Transkei. In this debate I repeated the assurances which we have given and implemented since 1963. I repeated the assurance given in the February statement, to which I referred. I said here what the Prime Minister and I and others have said on a number of occasions, namely that we guarantee the Whites and the Coloureds established in the Transkei their security in connection with the take-over of their properties etc. when they leave the Transkei in due course.

But when?

We have said so repeatedly.

But when will it be done?

Mr. Chairman, I have stated expressly … [Interjections.]

†Yes, that hon. member may leave the room.

Thank you, teacher.

And do so before it is too late! [Interjections.]

*Sir, it will be done after independence. Surely that is quite clear.

But how many years will it take?

Good heavens, Sir; now the hon. member wants to know how many years it is going to take. Here we again have the same insinuations we had yesterday. On the one hand the hon. member for Griqualand East wants the people to be able to leave the Transkei as soon as possible, and on the other hand he himself wants to remain there as long as possible. You will see, Sir, that that hon. member for Griqualand East will be one of those people who will cling to the Transkei with all his might and till his last gasp. He himself will not try to get out of there quickly. He will try to stay there as long as possible. And do you know, Sir, what his greatest advantage is? The longer he stays there, the longer this Government will continue to give him guarantees there.

If I want to go, when can I go?

Before the sun has set today, the hon. member may go. I shall ask the Secretary to get hold of a form right away on which the hon. member can set down his own property. [Interjections.] But the hon. member is now engaged in all kinds of fancy footwork. He has just asked when he can go. My witnesses are sitting here, and I say to that hon. member that he can go before the sun sets today.

I want to tell the hon. member for Edenvale that this debate has once again, for the umpteenth time, given and repeated to the Whites in the Transkei the assurance we have already given. We have said that we as a White Government are behind them, and we give them guarantees which no Whites elsewhere in Africa have had. In fact, we have had to accept responsibility for Whites in other parts of Africa in the past and we shall even do so for our people in the Transkei.

Then the hon. member states that the other group for whom nothing was forthcoming from this debate are the Bantu in the White area. I myself have tried to provide a fundamental outline here of the value, the significance to the Bantu of being here in the White area in terms of our policy—not in terms of the hon. member’s policy—if it is borne in mind that they are here as citizens of their own homelands and identify themselves with their own peoples. I pointed out that they would be far more welcome here in our area as a result of such an identification and would have far more privileges, far more concessions, far more recognition and far more incentive than when they did not want to recognize that citizenship which was theirs. We have referred here to housing matters. The Deputy Minister spoke of this matter this very afternoon. But then the hon. member comes along and does a very, very stupid thing for a person of his professorial knowledge of these matters. He actually compared—and I made inquiries here as to whether I had heard him correctly—the Afrikaner’s migration to the urban areas whereas, as he said, they did not need permits for that and permits were not required either, with the migration of the Bantu to the urban areas. [Interjections.] Now the hon. member sees what a grave error of reasoning he has committed and how wrongly he has reasoned.

Sir, this is the distorted thinking I spoke about yesterday, viz. that in terms of his integrationist approach he equates Whites and the Bantu with each other in White South Africa, whereas the Whites here are in their own homeland and do not need to have a permit when they leave the farm to go to the city because it all takes place within their own homeland. However this does apply to the Bantu because here we differentiate between the two groups: The one in another man’s homeland and the other in his own homeland. This is what the hon. member does not understand, and the comparison he made here is therefore a stupid comparison. It is a comparison which one ought to fail in an examination if one were to give it as an answer.

Do the Black people accept the division you bring about between the so-called White area and the other areas?

There the professor fails again for the second time. This hon. professor who is now a member of Parliament is today referring to the division of South Africa. Sir, we are not dividing South Africa today. [Interjections.] Oh, really, there is an hon. old gentleman who does not know it either. Sir, we are not dividing South Africa today. This story, that we are now dividing up South Africa, that we have to divide up wealth and that we have to share power with each other, is an extremely dangerous one, and we are hearing it a great deal. It is an extremely dangerous approach on the part of the Opposition. Even before 1910 South Africa was divided among Whites and Blacks. It was a historic division. All we are doing today is to amplify the promise we began to carry out in 1913 and which we gave effect to in this same House in 1936, by increasing the amount of land by 70% so as to carry out that promise in full. We are not dividing South Africa up.

The hon. member made a second mistake, too, this afternoon. I think he should analyse his basic philosophical approach in regard to our policy a little more carefully. I can recommend some good literature. In fact, within five minutes I can give him three or four excellent pamphlets to read—written by one N. J. J. Olivier, onetime lecturer at the University of Stellenbosch. Those pamphlets were published by an organization of which he was one of the brilliant members and officeholders. I am referring to Savra. He would do well to look through those sources.

I know them better than you do.

Very well, but use that better knowledge, then, to put your words into action. The hon. member had just started to discuss citizenship when he was saved by the bell, but he will have another opportunity later when the Bill in question comes before the House. Therewith I thank hon. members once again for their contributions to the debate.

Mr. Chairman, I request the privilege of the half-hour, although I will most probably not make use of the full period. On behalf of this side of the House I want to express our sincere thanks for the departmental report on Bantu Education which reaches us in time every year and is therefore available for proper study and analysis. We are also grateful to the Department of Bantu Education because they make such wealth of factual material available to us in that report. We are sincerely grateful for it. I must say this report compares very favourably with the type of abbreviated report we regularly receive from the principal department, the Department of Bantu Administration and Education.

I also want to speak with great appreciation of the dedication of the officials of the Department of Bantu Education. They do an excellent job of work, sometimes under very difficult circumstances. This is very clear to all of us. This afternoon I want to discuss two aspects in particular. The one is the Snyman Report on Turfloop, and then certain general matters concerning Bantu education, especially those which concern the Western Cape. My colleagues will then touch on other aspects of Bantu education. In connection with the Snyman Report, I would like to take the House’s memory back for a moment, to sketch the background to separate universities.

In 1958 a commission was appointed to go into this matter. The hon. the Minister may perhaps derive something of value from the evidence which was given before that commission. On that occasion a minority report was published. I should now like to indicate the main points of that minority report. By the way, that minority report was signed by members who sat on the UP side of this House at that time, namely Messrs. Moore, Louis Steenkamp, Mrs. Margaret Ballinger and Messrs. Steytler and Ronald Butcher. The chief recommendations of the minority report are summarized in the following nine points in which the minority report’s points of difference with the main report are indicated.

1. (i) It (the minority report) rejects the plan for a council and an advisory council and for a senate and an advisory senate in favour of one council and one senate for each university college.
2. (ii) It rejects the principle of racial separation implicit in the scheme for two councils and two senates.
3. (iii) It provides for full rights of the council of each college as a body corporate with authority within the institution for which it is constituted. This includes the right, subject to the approval of the Minister, to appoint the staff who shall be its employees.
4. (iv) It provides for representation on the council of other than Government nominees.
5. (v) It rejects exclusive ethnic divisions as the foundation of any university college established under the Act.
6. (vi) It correspondingly rejects the proposal that finance to establish and maintain Bantu university colleges should be provided from and through the Bantu Education Account.
7. (vii) It provides for the association of the colleges during their formative years with any South African university or universities and for such association with at least one such university.
8. (viii) It proposes the postponement of the closing of the “open” universities for at least ten years; and
9. (ix) Finally it specifies the Minister in charge of higher education as the Minister in terms of the Bill.

We had the Snyman Report after certain problems arose at the University of the North. On practically every point that commission found the points which appeared in the minority report at the time to be correct and it was consequently recommended that changes be made in this connection. The hon. the Minister, in his reaction to the recommendations also indicated that most of the recommendations of the Snyman Commission had indeed been accepted and would be applied.

I gave evidence before the commission on behalf of SABRA, and as hon. members will notice in the minority report, many of the recommendations included in it, are recommendations which SABRA submitted to the commission at the time. The hon. member for Rissik is always talking about change, but I want to urge him to read the recommendations which we submitted to the commission at the time. He will derive great benefit from it.

I referred to these recommendations specifically in order to indicate the problem with the hon. members on the opposite side that we are faced with. Time and time again we make recommendations, not for the sake of party-political advantage, but recommendations which we believe are indeed right and necessary for the sake of the situation in our country, and time and time again these recommendations are rejected. After that we need situations like the one which arose at Turfloop before the Government is compelled to alter its policy and standpoint. This of course creates a very dangerous precedent. Once the conviction grows upon our Black people that the only manner in which they can bring about a change—changes which are logical and apply to things which should have been done correctly in the first place—is to have a repeat of Turfloop, then we are pursuing a very dangerous course.

I want to inform the House of my personal experience. At the time I was offered the principalship of one of those university colleges and with this in mind I was even nominated member of the council of one of the colleges. Eventually, when I had to decide whether I would accept the appointment as principal, I asked the Minister of Bantu Education—it was before the Bill was published—to tell me how the colleges would be managed. His answer was that the maximum degree of apartheid would be applied in the colleges. The non-Whites at that university would not have representation in the senate together with the Whites and the council would consist of Whites only. An advisory council for Bantu would be established and there would be differentiation as far as salary scales were concerned. He went further and said that they would try to bring about the minimum of contact between Whites and non-Whites, both mutually on an interpersonal as well as on staff and student level. I found time and time again at those colleges that the Black students had separate tearoom and were not even allowed to sit in the same tearoom with their White fellow colleagues. Can you understand in what spirit the Black people under those circumstances, approached those colleges from the outset. I am grateful that, because of the service which those colleges have rendered, a part of that suspicion and opposition has disappeared. However, the lesson is very clear: If we dish up something to the Blacks in this way, whether it be citizenship in the Transkei, or anything else for that matter, if we do things which amount to depriving them of the rights which they enjoyed, such as the right which they had to attend open universities if those universities would admit them, if we do things which no one in his proper mind can justify, we are looking for trouble. Nor must hon. members on the opposite side tell me that the changes which were made, were merely an adjustment and an unfolding or extension of the policy, because this is not correct. These things have already been said. I have such statements before me. However, I leave it at that. Let me just add that here I discussed the contents of the Snyman Commission’s report here on a previous occasion. I pointed out what that report tells us, namely that a spirit of opposition exists, as became apparent at Turfloop, and that that spirit of opposition was not only due to circumstances at that university, but that it also reflected the overall situation in this country. The importance of our task in this House and in this debate is to find methods to eliminate that friction in some way or another. Now hon. members can understand my disappointment that we have done things in the past few days which are in fact inclined to increase the intensity of the conflict and the possibility of confrontation.

At this stage, may I say that this is the first time that this Vote will be dealt with by the new hon. Deputy Minister for Bantu Education. We wish him everything of the best in this connection. Mr. Chairman, you will know that many misgivings exist about the views of this hon. Deputy Minister. Allow me to say—I must say this because it is the truth—that there was tremendous disappointment amongst the Blacks at that appointment. The hon. the Deputy Minister will have an tremendous task to gain the confidence of the Blacks in dealing with this Vote. We wish him all success, because he is faced with a tremendous challenge.

You ought to be ashamed of yourself.

In particular I want to refer here to a few aspects of Bantu education in the Western Cape. Until recently I as well as other people noted with great appreciation the progress that had been taking place in the sphere of Bantu education. In the last few years, however, an atmosphere has developed in Bantu education—I am now referring to the teachers, the children and the parents—which is alarming. This applies to the Western Cape in particular. The problem of double shifts, which destroys proper education, the extremely poor conditions in the schools themselves, and the absence of equipment are all fundamental bottlenecks. For instance needlework is offered as an optional subject. In the course of their school education it is in fact the only subject which many girls can possibly take. However, the necessary equipment for this, is not provided. On the other hand the subsidy which is paid, is hopelessly inadequate to provide even the most rudimentary requirements for offering this course. You can go and see for yourselves what is available at those schools for offering science subjects, subjects like physics, chemistry, etc., subjects for which equipment is necessary. Go and see what they have there and compare it to the equipment of the poorest White school there is. This is an unthinkable situation. It is simply unthinkable. It simply cannot go on like this.

I have often objected in this House to the fact that no new high schools for Bantu children are being built in our urban areas. This is an unthinkable situation. It is a situation which not one of us here would endure. I want to repeat once again that the simplest rule is still that we should do unto others as we would like them to do unto us, even though this is considered by some people to be a mere catch-phrase.

Mr. Chairman, the policy which is being followed at present causes the break up of families. It is the cause of children being sent away from their parents at the most receptive age and when they need the discipline of their parents the most. It also entails tremendous financial burdens for the parents. This is something which ought to touch the heart of every parent sitting here. Do you know what it costs a parent to send his child to King William’s Town, since the railway concessions for school children have been cancelled? Two return journeys per year cost at least R112. The fare to Umtata is even higher. To that must still be added the cost of books, of school clothes, of ordinary clothes. If children live with their parents, it is still possible to devise ways and means. When children are sent away, however, it causes other problems. I can continue in this way. There is still the cost of boarding. School hostels are not able to accommodate all the children. As a result they must board with private people. Seen from a financial point of view, those people are being ruined. The result is that many parents are simply unable to send their children to school, do not want to send them, and that many children do not want to go to school. In other words, we are creating a group of frustrated people, and on top of that a group of lay-abouts and juvenile delinquents. This is the result of the policy which is being followed in that regard.

Apart from that there are still the legal implications. The parents know this. They know that when a registration certificate or an identity document is issued to their child, the fact that they lose the right to reside permanently in the urban area, is used to tell them that they have lost their qualification in terms of section 10 of the Urban Areas Act. This is a totally impossible situation. This is a situation which has been divested of any common sense or of any morality. Mr. Chairman, I am choosing my words.

We have taken cognizance …

Yes, it is a lot of poison!

No, there is nothing poisonous about it. I am trying to convey something to the hon. member which he as a parent ought to realize. He must please not speak of poison. [Interjections.] We took cognizance of the announcement by the hon. the Minister that free books would be available to pupils in Bantu schools until 1979. There is a tremendous need in those schools and we must move as rapidly as possible. There is no doubt that our Bantu teachers are poorly equipped. If hon. members do not know it I want to tell them that, as a result of the demoralization which has set in in Bantu education in the Western Cape, there is a complete lack of discipline today. There is a complete lack of discipline among both teachers and pupils in Bantu schools. There is also the chronic shortage of classroom space and the absence of any assistance to school principals. Only here and there do you find one that has a part-time secretary and there are even schools where the principal does not have his own office. More and more obstacles are being placed in the way of principals bringing teachers in from outside. In the Western Cape there are no training facilities for teachers. I will deal with this again in a moment. If a school in the Western Cape wants to find a teacher, it has to obtain teachers from elsewhere because there are no training facilities for teachers. It is being made more and more difficult for school principals to find teachers elsewhere. The day the Transkei becomes independent, this problem is going to increase twofold. A dual system of red tape is going to come into being.

In the Western Cape there is not a single training college for teachers. It is, in all honesty, a situation which cannot continue. In the whole of the Western Cape there is not one technical or apprentice training facility for Bantu children. They must go to the homelands for this.

Lastly: The salary structure of Bantu teachers remains, in comparison with the scales of White teachers with the same qualifications, of such a nature that the desired human material is not attracted to teaching. What we are now trying to do with the Bill before us, is to enhance the status of White teachers. That status previously existed amongst Bantu teachers, but is rapidly disappearing as a result of discrimination.

The problems which I raised, have not been raised in a spirit of unnecessary criticism. I merely stated the facts. It is the responsibility of the Government of the country to remedy the things to which I have referred.

Mr. Chairman, the hon. member made quite a venomous speech. I only agree with one thing the hon. member did, and this is to congratulate the hon. the Deputy Minister on his appointment. I want to do the same, but without the reservation which the hon. member attached to it. We on this side of the House have no doubt that the hon. the Deputy Minister will occupy his post with honour, competency and distinction. When he was appointed Deputy Minister a few weeks ago, he said that he was much more progressive than the hon. member for Houghton. I did not think that this was such a remarkable claim, because over the years we have learned to know the hon. member for Houghton as a person who placed many obstacles in the way of the development of the Bantu.

The hon. member for Edenvale spoke about two matters, namely the Snyman Report and the state of affairs in respect of Bantu education in the Western Cape. As far as the Snyman Report is concerned, he took it amiss of the Government for taking away the right of the Bantu students to visit the open universities. In this connection I want to quote what another expert said in The Sunday Tribune of 14 March 1976—

It is amazing that a person who was not even born in South Africa and has only been in the country for a few years, should teach a professor in ethnology a lesson.

The hon. member spoke about Bantu education and painted an extremely sombre and negative picture of the terrible conditions which apparently prevail. He spoke about the double-shift system which supposedly causes all the inconvenience. Of course, this is an undesirable state of affairs. All the things which the hon. member pleaded for, inter alia, the abolition of the double-shift system, the lack of classroom space and other facilities, are all things which cost money if we want to remove them. If for example we want to abolish the double-shift system, approximately 11 000 teachers will be involved in this. This would mean that 11 000 additional classrooms would have to be provided at R3 400 per classroom. Ten thousand classrooms would cost R34 million and 11 000 a little more. If, say, R1 500 per year is paid to 11 000 additional teachers, this gives us a total amount of R16 million. The hon. member does not tell us where that money should come from. The hon. member spoke about the inadequate facilities and said that we should compare a Bantu school with the poorest White school. Last night the hon. member for Bryanston censured the Government because expenditure on Bantu education was R28 per year per capita in contrast as against R500 per capita for White education. However, the hon. member’s figures are not entirely correct. In 1974 the figures were R39,53 per capita for Bantu education. For 1975 it was approximately R44 and this year it will certainly be very close to R50. In any event, there is still an extremely large gap. The hon. member for Edenvale must say whether he is in favour of eventual parity in the capital expenditure in respect of White education and that of Bantu education.

Naturally.

The hon. member says “naturally”. That makes two of us. I am beginning to realize that this hon. member and myself have common grounds. The hon. member accused us a moment ago of not practising what we preached, and not doing unto others what we would have them do to us. However, it is fundamental to the NP policy that we do not begrudge others that what we claim for ourselves. I therefore grant the Bantu that eventually he will also receive an amount of R500 per capita for his teachers per year. The only difference between the hon. member and myself is how we must bring it about, how we must increase the level of Bantu education and narrow the gap. The standpoint of the hon. member is that Bantu education must be financed by the Treasury. If we want parity, an expenditure of R500 times 4 million pupils will be necessary. This gives a total of R2 000 million. This amount is absolutely prohibitive. The only way in which parity can be obtained is to reduce the level of White education and to increase the level of Bantu education. I am sure the hon. member would not welcome such a step. However, there is a different method and the Government is following that method. If we want to increase the level of Bantu education, we must ask ourselves how the Whites have succeeded in having the high level of education today where they can spend R500 per year on every pupil. This amount has not always been so high. When that hon. member and myself were at school, the Government did not spend R500 per year on our education. I do not think it was even a quarter of that amount. There were years in which it was not even R40. Why is this amount so high today? The answer is that the White’s economic position has improved over the years. We pay more taxes and because we pay more taxes, the Government is able to give those good things to us. In order to be able to increase the level of Bantu Education, there is no other way but the one the Government is following at present, namely (a) to make the Bantu homelands themselves responsible for their education and other services and (b) to improve the economic position of the Bantu to such an extent that a fiscal system can be devised by means of which the Bantu can be made even more independent. In 1970 there were only 1,4 million Bantu taxpayers. Last year there were 2,4 million. This is immense progress. Chief Minister Mopedi said the other day: “Our Blacks want to stand on our own two feet”. I want to suggest that if we can encourage the spirit among those people, it would mean more than all the million rands of subsidies which we pay. This year the gross national income in the homelands is estimated at R1½ milliard. According to a projection it will be R17 milliard by the end of the century, twice that of the Whites today. This is after all an immense source from which taxes can eventually come in order to give the Bantu an education at the level which I and the hon. member for Edenvale desire.

Sir, in the list of priorities of this Government there are few matters which stand higher than the development of the homelands and the accompanying generation of revenue for the people there. On the one hand education can make it possible and on the other hand that economic improvement as a result of better education can in turn mean a higher level of education. In the programme of the generation of income there is increased production in agriculture, of which we heard yesterday. These are all the positive things which the hon. the Minister mentioned a moment ago. For instance, there is the establishment of industries, the development of trade as a strengthening of the multiplicity factor, rapid transport, to which reference was also made last night, the training of labour, the development of human potential, the creation of an infrastructure and many other matters. The hon. member tells us that we are neglecting matters here. The world is continually being told that the per capita expenditure on Black education is so low, but what is not said, is that while the per capita expenditure on university training for Whites is R1 950, it is R2 500 for Bantu. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, I should like to associate myself with the congratulations of other hon. members in respect of the appointment of the hon. the Deputy Minister to this office. We wish him well. We know that he is a very able man and that he is equal to the task. To be responsible for education in this country and for the education of Blacks in Africa, is an enormous task. I have previously told this House that a Black man of Africa one day showed me the conditions prevailing in Brazzaville in the Congo. He described circumstances there and said: “We are watching what you in South Africa are doing in the sphere of education, and you must come and help us. We are fighting and losing this battle. ” Therefore, Sir, I should like to say that the hon. the Deputy Minister has a major and important task on his shoulders. Therefore we should like to wish him well. It is regrettable that the hon. member for Edenvale made the unfortunate remark that the Black people are supposed to be unhappy about the appointment of the hon. the Deputy Minister. I think that unhappiness was merely in the heart of the hon. member, because the Black people I have discussed the matter with have no objections whatsoever against that appointment. I certainly think that it was a very unfortunate remark.

The hon. member had a great deal to say about the Snyman report. He said, inter alia, that it dealt with unrest on the campus of the University of the North, and then told us that suggestions made to the Government, had not been accepted. I should like to refer to page 186 of that report, where Mr. Justice Snyman had the following to say—

In other words, the steps which the commissioner recommends—and these are his own words—will, although it might remove the emotion from the unrest, not eliminate it altogether. Sir, I find it regrettable that a man with whom we have always had some sympathy because he took the wrong track, but who will eventually perhaps find Ms way back again, could be so blinded by prejudice that he could utter jeremiads here about the so-called shortcomings in Bantu education. He did so while one could sing a song of praise about this Vote. One could wax lyrical about the fantastic achievements in the sphere of Bantu education over the past two decades in South Africa. Of course, there are still shortcomings, but there are shortcomings in White education as well. However, if we stare ourselves blind at the shortcomings only, we would not see the magnificent and wonderful things which have been done in this sphere. I state categorically that the tempo of development in respect of Bantu education in this country over the past two decades has not been equalled or surpassed anywhere in the world in the sphere of education. I want to challenge the hon. member to prove to me where in the world this tempo of development in the sphere of education has been surpassed or even equalled. To prove my statement, I should like to indicate very briefly how, firstly, Bantu education was developed during the past ten years and, secondly, I want to try and draw a comparison between conditions here in South Africa and those in a few African countries. Firstly, I should like to deal with the spectacular progress made during the past ten years. I obtained the information from the annual reports and I believe it is correct. In 1965 there were 8 810 Bantu schools, primary and secondary, and in 1975 there were 12 573—an increase of almost 40%. As far as teachers are concerned, there were 34 000 in 1965 and 69 000 in 1975—an increase of more than 100% within 10 years. In 1965 there were 1,9 million Bantu pupils at school, and in 1975, 3,7 million—an increase of 98%.

That is 21% of the population.

Yes. In 1965, 13,9% of the population attended school and in 1975, 17,7%—a fantastic improvement. No, I beg your pardon. There were 13,9 million Blacks in 1965, and 17,7 million in 1975; 14,12% of the population attended school in 1965 and 21,07% in 1975. This number of pupils attending school as a percentage of the population, compares well with many European countries and no African country comes near to it. The nearest I was able to come with the information available to me, was 18%. If that is not spectacular progress—in any language and in any country and in any terminology—I do not know what progress is. In addition, mention can be made of the expenditure in respect of Bantu education, excluding the universities. In 1965 R25,2 million was spent on Bantu education, excluding the universities; in 1975 it was R160 million—an increase of 640% during the ten years. [Interjections.] As far as Black lecturers are concerned: In 1965 there were only 39 at the various Bantu universities, but in 1975 there were 96—an increase of 240%. Black students in 1965 numbered 939, and in 1975, 4 133. These were the Black students at the three universities, plus 5 262 who attended Unisa and other universities. Altogether 9 395 Black students were enrolled at the universities in 1975. Under the circumstances, it is an absolutely astonishing achievement. It gives us a clear picture of the progress made during the past 10 years.

I should also like to try and compare the education here at home with that elsewhere in Africa. Before doing so, however, I should like to refer to the argument of the Opposition side that Bantu education in South Africa cannot be compared with Bantu education elsewhere in Africa, but that Bantu education in South Africa should actually be compared with White education. Surely, that is a very stupid argument. After all, these two things cannot be compared. When the Whites came from Europe in the 17th and 18th centuries, they came from a civilization which had by then reached its peak. That was the time of Vondel and Hoofdt. The Dutch and English civilizations had by then reached their peaks, and the people who came to this country maintained that civilization here. I do not know whether hon. members have been to America. There one can see that there has been virtually no development among the Navajo Indians in their reserve. It is a very large area with a very good rainfall. I am not trying to tell the Americans how to run their affairs, but that large area in America cannot be compared with the rest of America. Why should the Black people in South Africa be compared with the Whites here? It can certainly not be done, and therefore I say that Bantu education in South Africa should be compared with Bantu education elsewhere in Africa. I have chosen two countries for the purpose of this comparison, and I shall say why I have chosen these two countries. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, I should like to associate myself with the remarks and felicitations extended to the hon. the Deputy Minister in this his first Vote. I wish him well and want to suggest to him that he, like his immediate predecessor, should give effect to some of the sound advice and suggestions that we, on this side of the House, have tendered from time to time. If he were to do that, we would certainly notice a greater improvement in the whole sphere of Bantu education. Our plea to him is that whatever he does, he should seek to increase the tempo of improvement.

I now want to come briefly to something that disturbs me greatly. I am referring to the training of Bantu pharmacists. Let me say at the outset that I believe the facilities, staff and equipment provided at Turfloop for the training of Bantu pharmacists are second to none in South Africa. Of that I am sure. However, let us look at some other facts. First of all, we have the information that since the establishment of a training centre for pharmacists at Turfloop 24 pharmacists have graduated. According to the answer to my question it is estimated that the cost to train a Bantu pharmacist, from matriculation standard to graduation, is R13 200 per student. It is interesting that the State has largely paid for this, because it is by virtue of financial assistance that these men have been able to train. However, what has happened to the Bantu pharmacists? Are they employed by the State? The answer I get from the Department of Health is that not one single Bantu pharmacist trained in South Africa is employed by the State. I think it is therefore justifiable to ask why not? I now want to give the hon. the Minister the answer. The answer is plainly and simply a question of salary. I want to refer the hon. the Minister to an advertisement in the South African pharmaceutical journal of February this year. On the one side it says “Pharmacist: Commencing salary up to R7 380 per annum depending on qualifications and experience. Requirements: Registration as chemist and druggist with the Pharmacy Board. Duties: General pharmacy duties. Apply Secretary for Health.” Opposite that advertisement and on the same page we find—

That is less than half.

How can the hon. the Deputy Minister expect that pharmacists trained under excellent conditions—I would never suggest that their qualifications are inferior or that their ability is inferior—will take up positions under those circumstances? Can he wonder that pharmacists who are trained in South Africa seek positions in other countries in southern Africa where they do not adopt this attitude? I can only sum up the attitude as being a cock-eyed outlook, a lop-sided approach and it smacks of gross discrimination. I believe that to indicate in this advertisement a salary difference which amounts to a salary ratio of 100 to 47, is utterly unfair, because it states the highest rung for the White pharmacists and it mentions the lowest commencing rung for the Black pharmacists. However, even with that, the salary ratio is 100 : 63—100 to the White and 63 to the African.

In the time that is left to me I want to deal briefly with teacher training. I believe that teachers are the key factor in raising standards and efficiency in schools. I should like to refer the hon. the Deputy Minister to the report of the education panel, the panel which was constituted in 1961 and comprised a broad section of academics. This panel issued a second report in 1966 in which it made certain projections. The projections were based on Bantu teachers. They projected enrolment, teaching force and the number of teachers required. I am sorry to say that in terms of the projections there has been a disappointing result. I take the dates 1965 and 1975 and when those two dates are compared, the enrolment was almost identical with the actual projection—2 million pupils. The teacher projection was 34 000 but the actual figures were 29 000—a shortfall of 5 000. This resulted in a pupil/teacher ratio of 1 to 67. In 1975 the enrolment figure of 3,7 million tallied, with only a slight difference, with the projected figure. There was an improvement because there were 69 000 teachers and the projection was only for 55 000. However, the projection was based on a ratio of one teacher to 68 pupils. The teacher/pupil ratio has therefore improved to 1 to 54. However, the projection showed that 100 000 teachers would be needed in 1975 to produce a teacher/pupil ratio of 1 to 38 and that is just about double the ratio in White schools where we have a ratio of 1 to 20. I therefore suggest that the overall picture in so far as Bantu teachers are concerned is depressing.

I want to refer the hon. the Deputy Minister to an answer given to the hon. member for Pietermaritzburg North during this session. He asked whether there was a shortage of qualified teachers, but the answer dealt solely with a shortage of unqualified teachers. It nevertheless made sad reading because in the primary schools the shortage has now increased to 5 000 unqualified teachers in schools in the White areas of the Republic. In so far as secondary school teachers are concerned, their shortage has increased from 99 in 1972 to 241 in 1975. The increase in the shortage is by two and a half times. I know that on the credit side there is the fact that there has been a larger number of teachers who received college training, but I want to ask the hon. the Deputy Minister to indicate when the backlog will be reduced to such an extent that we shall have an improved teacher/pupil ratio. When is it expected to discontinue the use of unqualified teachers, unqualified teachers who, as far as I know, have a Std. 8 education or less? Yet these teachers are expected to teach not only in primary schools, but in secondary schools as well. No wonder that sometimes the results are not as good as we would like them to be.

I should also like to ask the hon. the Deputy Minister if he would give some details about the new plans for adult education. His predecessor announced earlier this session that steps have been taken to increase the facilities for and tempo of adult education. Goodness knows, that need has existed for many years, because the programme of adult education can be directed at people in the cities who find it very difficult to attend continuation and night classes in the townships and who have no means of improving themselves if they should so desire. I notice that over the last few years there has been an improvement in the enrolment in the Bantu continuation and night schools. It is gratifying to see that. However, if one considers that the total enrolment in the White areas is a mere 9 000 souls throughout the White area of the Republic, I think the hon. the Deputy Minister will concede that the need in this respect is a great one. I trust that, when he replies, he will indicate the extent to which he proposes to remedy this need by the introduction of literacy courses at night schools. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, the hon. member for Berea always makes a solid contribution. Consequently I enjoyed listening to him. Since I have only a short time at my disposal, I shall leave it to the hon. the Deputy Minister to reply to the hon. member.

I want to come back to the hon. member for Edenvale. It seems to me as if the Deputy Minister is a thorn in the flesh of the hon. member. Apparently this is not something recent, but has been the case for many decades. Apparently the hon. the Deputy Minister is a constant reminder to the hon. member for Edenvale of what he was and what he has now become. As a scientist, the hon. member was by no means an able politician, and now that he is a politician, he is no longer by any means a scientist. It amazes me sometimes that the hon. member wants to go into detail about the background and the history of the development of universities for the Bantu people. All he did was go off at something of a tangent into one of the commissions of the time and failed entirely to see this matter in perspective. In the course of my speech I shall refer now and again to the hon. member for Edenvale.

I should like to begin my speech by quoting a single paragraph from the annual report of the Department of Bantu Education. I also want to congratulate the public servants, the Secretary and the department on a very sound piece of work. I must say that it took a lot of time to go through the annual report and acquire a sound grasp of the extent of the activities of the department. In the introduction it is correctly stated that—

The second paragraph reads as follows—

In view of this enormous growth it goes without saying that any hon. member could unearth a number of bottlenecks. For example, it can be pointed out that there is a shortage of money, that there is a shortage of teachers, that there is a shortage of classroom space and many more. I am prepared to concede that there are shortages. However, the achievements of Bantu education over the past 20 years have been phenomenal. This is something which one cannot get away from.

I should like to refer briefly to the contributions made by Whites in the field of tertiary education, particularly at universities. On page 134 of the report we note that there are 317 Whites attached to Bantu universities as professors, senior lecturers and lecturers, and 128 members of staff in non-teaching posts.

Furthermore there are three White rectors. Now it is true that a great deal of negative criticism is being levelled by the leftist elements in South Africa at what the Whites are doing in South Africa. The extent to which the real and positive contribution to Bantu educational institutions by Whites is ignored, is sometimes amazing. I have in mind in particular, able young people who are well trained academically, people who have left their own cultural milieu and who seek their future in a teaching career among other peoples. In such cases there is often the problem of cultural gaps. Such people often experience difficult conditions. We shall find that in the world of liberal thinking today an extremely negative and critical line is adopted towards these people. However, I want to break a lance for those people. I want to tell them that they have done well and that they should not cease to do well. In common with people attached to Bantu universities, I am concerned about the many things I read, things which appeared in the so-called report of the Snyman Commission. I, too, find many of those things disturbing because I know that my people and my Government, with the greatest piety, devotion and dedication, have attempted to perform a task for the non-White peoples of South Africa. As a result, when things happen such as those to which the Snyman Commission refers in its report, it hurts us. It hurts us in the first instance because we know that the reactions which have occurred there have very often been unfair reactions. Consequently when the matter is discussed more objectively and more penetratingly, it is possible to eliminate many of the problems that exist with regard to the matter.

I accept that it is possible for a sense of frustration to have developed among many of the students, and many of the lecturing staff, too, about certain aspects of the overall pattern of society in South Africa. However, not all frustration, irregularities and problems that have occurred at Bantu universities are ascribable to the presence of the White man and the policy of separate development. There are other reasons, too, which give rise to frustration. In the first place there are the natural reasons. We must accept that most Bantu students come from a milieu which, 100 to 150 years ago, was still determined by primitive agricultural-economic systems, and we must accept that these people can be taken out of their centuries-old cultural milieu, not in a matter of a century, but in a few decades— particularly the decades after the Second World War which had a tremendous impact on the material and spiritual cultural achievements of man—and can be placed in a highly technical world in which the cultural milieu is entirely different to what they have become accustomed in the course of centuries. Nor is the frustration which this causes among the young Bantu students peculiar to Bantu students alone. It applies to the White students as well. There are many White students who have also had to be taken out of a rural community over a period of 50 to 100 years to be confronted immediately with the great realities, schools of thought and ideologies of our time. Here we must bear in mind that the great philosophical schools of thought of our time are so constituted as to question and reject everything which has thus far given meaning to man’s existence. It is not only the White people who are thereby placed in a vacuum, in which the realities of life have thrown them totally off balance; it has also had a great impact on the Bantu students. Hon. members can speak to medical practitioners. They very often have to deal with Bantu students. The physical symptoms displayed by these people are very often symptoms arising out of the psyche of the persons concerned. It is of importance, too, to bear in mind that among the Blacks in South Africa the consciousness of the Whites, and also of the Blacks elsewhere in Africa, is apparently not to be found. It is an historic fact, as my colleague, the hon. member for Algoa said, that when the White man came to South Africa he already possessed an advanced form of civilization, a civilization which had acquired a great deal of knowledge in the course of centuries, and that this immediately placed him in a position of superiority towards the Black man. Since then the White man in South Africa has not stagnated with regard to the development of his thinking, research and science. He has developed further in those spheres. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, I want to associate myself with the hon. member for Rissik in saying that the hon. member for Edenvale presented a relatively distorted image to us. For that reason I should like to deal with the development of tertiary education for Bantu on the basis of the development of the University of the North. Because of the growing need for university training, especially after the Second World War, the enrolment of Black students at the universities of the time was limited in consequence of admission requirements which were becoming progressively higher. As a result of this, tertiary education was not within reach of the large mass of Black peoples in South Africa. In order to meet this problem the National Party Government appointed a commission of inquiry as long ago as 1953 under the chairmanship of Dr. Holloway to investigate the possibility of establishing separate university facilities for Black people. The result of this was that the Extension of University Education Act was passed in 1959 in terms of which the University Colleges of the North and of Zululand were established under the academic control of the University of South Africa. In the same spirit the University College of Fort Hare, too, was transferred to the Government.

At the time of the establishment of the university colleges it was stated very clearly that the policy was that the national units served by the colleges, would eventually be able to man all posts, i.e. as soon as a sufficient number of trained Black academics was available. The same would apply to the management of the colleges. This still is the policy of this Government, as is evident from the annual report of the Department of Bantu Education. The total number of White members of the staff at the University of the North, for instance, decreased in 1975 while the number of Black members of the staff increased by approximately 80%. The University College of the North was opened on 11 January 1960 with a student enrolment of 80. The total staff, administrative and teaching, was 22 Whites and 7 Blacks. During the subsequent ten years the numbers grew to 671 students with a total staff of 81 Whites and 34 Blacks. During this period 279 degrees and 305 diplomas were awarded to students. Because the university college developed so rapidly during the’sixties the ties with the University of South Africa were severed with the passing of the University of the North Act in 1969.

As from 1 January 1970 the institution became an academically autonomous university on the same campus. The university already has the following faculties: Arts; commerce and administration; education; law; theology; mathematics and physics, which, inter alia, also has a department of pharmacy. The hon. member for Berea has already referred to this. At this university training can be offered on all academic levels up to doctoral status. In addition the university also offers profession-orientated diploma courses in social work, commerce, education, law and nursing. The senate supervises the arrangement of instruction in the classes. The opinion of interested parties and experts is that the university maintains a sound average academic standard. Since that time the number of students has increased to a total of 1 695 in the year 1975. Expectations are that the numbers may increase even to 5 000 or more by 1980. The staff has also increased to 140 Whites and 79 Blacks. During 1974 1 482 bursaries and study and teaching loans to the amount of R281 580 were awarded. The number of students who enrolled for 1974 was 1 526, in other words 97,1% of the students studied with financial assistance, mainly from the Government. The unit cost per student for 1974 was R1 731. Since the establishment of this institution as many as 1 013 degrees and 837 diplomas have been awarded. In order to perform the academic and other functions of the university, the institution has modern, functional and beautiful buildings. Since the establishment of the university total capital expenditure already amounts to more than R5 million. Current expenditure for the year 1975 amounted to nearly R4 million. The library, for instance, comprises an attractive six storied building which, according to estimates, can house approximately 20 000 books. The university even has its own computer. Because of its situation, the university is obliged to provide accommodation for virtually all its students. For that reason many women’s and men’s residences were built. At present the university can provide accommodation to 1 895 students. The time at my disposal does not allow me to refer to the recreational and sporting facilities. What has struck me, however, is that reference has frequently been made in the course of this session to the Snyman Report. What really interests me is what the hon. members of the Opposition have failed to mention about the contents of this report. I want to refer to what, in my opinion, are very important findings contained in this report.

Firstly, the commission is of the opinion that the establishment of separate universities for Blacks was a sound step, which made it possible that special attention be given to the Black student and which enabled him to make up his leeway. Secondly, the commission is of the opinion that this university, together with the other universities for Blacks, offers room for many more Black students than would have been the case had they been dependent on universities for Whites. Thirdly, the commission is also of the opinion that more individual attention is being given to the students than is normally the case at other universities. The fourth matter on which the commission expressed an opinion, which is also very important, is that it is convinced of the fact that the university has experienced sound growth since its establishment, that its establishment is justified and that it is undoubtedly managed in a very responsible manner. Furthermore, I want to refer to two very interesting statements in this report. I refer in the first instance to page 56 of the report. We have heard very little of SASO, the foster-child of the hon. member for Pinelands. I now quote page 56 to indicate what the commission found—

What does SASO itself say in their policy manifesto? I quote from page 207 of the report. There the following is stated in para. 6—

Mr. Chairman, before, I return to the hon. member for Smithfield, may I take the opportunity of extending to the new Deputy Minister of Bantu Administration and Education the congratulations and good wishes of those in these benches. The hon. the Deputy Minister is on record as saying that he is more verlig than the hon. member for Houghton. He will have adequate opportunity to demonstrate exactly what he means by that as he continues his work. This is a very difficult and wide field, which will tax all his verligte resources.

Mr. Chairman, I want to underline what was said earlier, almost obliquely, by the hon. member for Port Natal. That is that when we talk about Bantu education, or any education, it must be seen in the total context of South Africa as an industrial society, wherein the skills of all its peoples should be utilized to the best advantage. I do not think that there would be anyone who would disagree with that, but this is only possible if there is a developed educational infrastructure and a school system in which the majority of the pupils in that system stay for at least the full primary course. This we do not yet have in South Africa, and we need to reach that stage with the minimum of delay. If one takes a table representing a group of African children who started in grade school in 1957, you will find that when we come to 1964, that is when they would normally reach Std. 6, the figure of 100 has dropped to 8,7.

Whose fault is that?

Yours, particularly. [Interjections.] If you go on to 1968, you find that by the time these children will have reached Std. 10, that figure has dropped to 0,8. The grim fact is that there are not enough Black children getting to school, and even fewer are staying on in school. There are many reasons for this, but there is one fact that emerges from this which is indisputable and that is that as a result of this we have not merely a ripple but a veritable wave effect throughout Black society which will not leave us untouched. Therefore, however long we spend on saying what we have attempted—and much has been attempted—and however much stress is placed on the development which has taken place, it seems to me and to those of us in these benches at least that there must be an acceleration, perhaps like we have never seen before in South Africa, in speeding up the necessary development of the education of the Black man in South Africa. I would say, together with the hon. member for Berea, that a key requisite in all this—and there are many facets to it—is to lay even greater stress on better qualified teachers and more teachers. For whatever else we do, no matter how many buildings we put up and no matter how many books are provided, if we do not have the teachers we simply are not going to be able to have that basic infrastructure which leads to the development of an economy which will enable the development of the earning ability and therefore the production of more money for more education. In a period of rapid growth of population and school enrolment the failure to develop secondary school education in the most vigorous manner possible cannot but produce an underdeveloped, unqualified and underqualified teaching staff. This leads inevitably to the employment of unqualified teachers, to a high pupil-teacher ratio and to the lowering of standards offered in schools.

If one looks at the teacher shortage which is outlined in many tables and one reads the various projections which have been made over the years, it is an incontrovertible fact that again and again in our projections relating to pupils we have been more or less correct, while in the projection of teachers required and teacher trainees we have been hopelessly wide of the mark. At the end of 1972 the number of teacher trainees was less than 10 000. During this time the number of pupils had more than doubled to 3 093 000. In 1976 we have been reminded that we have topped the 4 million mark for the first time. Mention has already been made of double sessions which were first introduced in 1955, 20 years ago, as a temporary measure. Now this involves a teacher teaching two groups of pupils consecutively without extra payment, but this means that the number of hours given to the individual child has inevitably to be reduced to three hours instead of the normal, say, 4½ hours. In 1973 just under a million African children were in double-session classes. That is 33% of all pupils in Bantu education. To do away with this, as we have already been told by the hon. member for Port Natal, would require more than 10 000 extra teachers, but the normal increase required, the normal requirement per year, is 4 000 new teachers. In 1972 only 4 346 were qualified. The quality is further exacerbated by the high teacher-pupil ratio which I will not dwell upon as it has already been stressed in this debate, but when one looks at the qualifications of the existing teacher force, which is so absolutely vital, less than 12% of African teachers have Matric or its equivalent. A staggering 88% have J.C., Std. 8, or lower, and of these nearly 30% have less than J.C. It is clear that even to improve this major area of infrastructure, viz. to achieve greater development of teachers and have better qualified teachers, will involve colossal funds and vigorous planning. I have not even mentioned the desperate shortage of so many other facilities such as buildings, books and equipment. Against such a background of urgent need, it is depressing and tragic that this Government has seen fit, if my information is correct, to actually cut back on funds available for Black education.

Your information is wrong.

Well, then, let me quote one of the senior officials in the Bantu Education Department. Perhaps his information is incorrect as well. I quote—

Was his information wrong? Let me continue quoting—

Mr. Chairman, this afternoon I have two very pleasant tasks to perform. In the first instance I should like to add my congratulations to all those good wishes which have already been conveyed to the hon. the Deputy Minister here this afternoon. In the second place I have the pleasant task of bringing a message of hope to the hon. member for Pinelands. The hon. member was also a person who traditionally had to be a bearer of good tidings, a message of hope and expectation. However, he is apparently no longer a bearer of good tidings. He is caught up in pessimism and despondence about the future. I am asking him now to look at the future with me in order to share in a vision of what lies ahead for South Africa in the sphere of Bantu education so that he can once again pluck up courage for the future. The hon. member complained that not enough Bantu children were going to school. He asked that the process be accelerated. I should like to ask him to look at the future together with me on the basis of scientific data. If he does so, I am sure that all the bottlenecks which he finds so disturbing, can be solved. Then he will be able to accept with all of us that the Department of Bantu Education is accomplishing one achievement after the other.

Give him an encouraging text while you are about it.

It is simply a characteristic of the times in which we are living that people are strongly orientated to the future. It is as if people find the prospect of what lies ahead so enthralling that they are particularly anxious about what lies ahead of them in the years to come. Possibly it is the immense speed with which our world is changing almost every day which causes people, and especially young people, to entertain doubts about the future. In any event, whether it is expectation or fear, the fact remains that being future-orientated has become a characteristic of our time. Futurology is consequently university subject which is presented at most European universities. That subject tries to determine tendencies and project them into the future so as to be able to identify future problems and bottlenecks in time. On the basis of such identification the necessary adjustments can then be made in time and a strategy can be decided upon which will prevent bottlenecks. I should like to look into the future in such a spirit this afternoon in respect of Bantu education.

I want to consider certain projections so that the future perspective which it opens to us, will fix our attention on certain aspects of our strategy. I base these projections or predictions on scientific information which I found in the March 1976 newsletter of the Human Sciences Research Council. According to this the present tendencies are analysed and on that basis a forecast is made up to the year 1990. If one takes into consideration that the period until 1990 only covers a stretch of 14 years, one realizes that the future picture which will unfold over the following 14 years, is simply fantastic.

There are many bottlenecks and problems in connection with Bantu education and one could draw up a long list in this regard. However, if one looks at Bantu education in South Africa as a whole, it simply spells out one big success story. Several hon. members have already demonstrated by means of statistics this afternoon what has been achieved in the sphere of Bantu education. There is no country in the world with a large developing Black population which can boast of such achievements in the field of education as those of the Republic of South Africa. According to this newsletter of the HSRC the Black school population in 1960—the hon. member for Pinelands ought to find this an interesting statistic—was 1,5 million, but 14 years later—that is to say, in 1974—it was 3,5 million. If one looks 14 years into the future on the basis of the projection of the HSRC, one finds that the Black school population will reach 8,2 million in 1990. In 1960 12,5% of the Bantu population was at school, but in 1974 this figure had grown to 19,7%. According to the projection at least 30% of the Bantu population will be at school in 14 years’ time. Thus compares favourably even with any White country in the world. It is a success story of which one can indeed be proud. It is a story which makes one optimistic if one thinks of the future. It is therefore significant, too, that this fine publication in which, inter alia, Black education is also referred to, is justifiably called Stepping into the future.

The same success story applies to students at universities. Originally there were few pupils who received secondary education and eventually passed matric. The universities did therefore not have a large source of supply. However, this situation is changing drastically. In 1957 there was a total of approximately 1 600 Black university students, but in 1974 there were already 7 800 and in 14 years from now, in 1990, it is anticipated that there will be 43 100 Black students in South Africa, enough Black students to fill approximately three universities of the size of the present University of Stellenbosch or the University of Pretoria. This is indeed a tremendous future perspective. Population groups whose education graph rises so sharply, are population groups with a fine future in South Africa.

It is of course clear that one of the aspects which we must bear in mind carefully in our education strategy for the future, is to provide sufficient employment opportunities for this multitude of learned and educated Black people, especially in the homelands. Although many opportunities exist for professional Black people in various professional directions in the homelands—I am thinking for instance of the sphere of education—it is a cause for concern that there is an apparent “brain drain ”, to use the English expression, or erosion of trained or educated Blacks from the homelands to the White areas. A strategy to provide sufficient opportunities for trained Blacks in the homelands, is extremely important, but such a strategy will also have to explore new possibilities. A strategy always demands daring and even experimental thought based on definite aims. The question which I should like to put, is whether agreements cannot be reached with the homeland governments on the grounds of good neighbourliness and sound co-operation that trained or educated citizens of that country who cannot be accommodated there, can play a greater part in certain categories of employment in South Africa. This will of course have to take place in border or nearby areas. This means that in those categories of employment the Black man will also have to be afforded the opportunity of being employed at all levels in accordance with his training and qualifications. I emphasize once again that such a horizontal arrangement in respect of the division of labour can only be arranged between the respective governments, i.e. on grounds of separate development.

There is another aspect which I would like to touch on with respect to a Bantu education strategy. The problem of Africa and therefore also of Black education in South Africa is that the pedagogics or education which is used, has a strong Western orientation and is not always compatible with the culture, and what is particularly important, with the aptitude and potential of the Blacks themselves. As a result of the rising finance costs of education it is extremely important that people should be trained in accordance with their potential and in accordance with future employment opportunities which will arise. In the USA today there are literally thousands of graduates who cannot find employment in the direction for which they were trained. This creates tremendous frustration. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, I want to try to bring the hon. member for Johannesburg West right back to the present after he moved so far out into the future in his speech. I want to remind him that, while good news is naturally central to one’s basic message, it is also central to the fact that good news must always come with a specific answer to specific problems and must not only point to some far-off distant heaven. The hon. member tends to overlook that fact. Let us come back to earth. We agree that there are many children at school. We are glad that the school attendance is improving. However, the fact I want to try to bring home to this House is that, if one wishes to bring about the position that the teachers are better qualified and that there are more of them, how is one going to go about this if less than 1% of the Black children who go to school ever reach matric? Perhaps he will tell us a bit about their future as well. Out of six million African children who started school between 1958 and 1968, half dropped out by Std. 3. What kind of future is that not only for the Black people but for all the peoples of South Africa? Unless we are prepared to inject vast funds, skills and commitments to change this picture, the future is bleak not merely for the Black man but also for the White man of South Africa.

Earlier in the debate I was quoting from Mr. Hartshorne’s speech delivered at the University of the Witwatersrand. Just to make my point perfectly clear, I wish to quote now from a report which appeared in The Star of 13 December 1975. In this report one reads, inter alia—

If he was wrong in that, he must be spoken to. I happen to know him. I know him to be a very fine education planner. I have seen a great deal of the work he has been doing and I should imagine that he would know what was going on in the department. He is reported as having said further—

The hon. the Deputy Minister would obviously agree, I think, with that analysis and comment because, when I put a question to him earlier in this session about inflation and the cutting back of expenditure in his department, he responded brightly by saying that education was anti-inflationary. We agree with that wholeheartedly. Education is anti-inflationary. Not only do we believe that education is anti-inflationary; we also believe it can and must and will lead to a far greater level of stability and security in South Africa, provided we succeed in this gigantic task. I read in the newspaper yesterday that the hon. the Minister of Bantu Administration and Development had informed one of the members on this side of the House that free books, which are now being made available to Black school-children in South Africa, would be available to all school-children by 1979. I really cannot understand why it is not possible to try to expedite this scheme. We have been told over the last two years that this discrimination was going to stop. Now we are told that it is going to take until 1979. We are also told as a hard fact that just over 20% of Black children who start school leave after a single year. I again refer to Mr. Hartshorne’s statement in The Star as long ago as 1974, and I quote—

Those were Mr. Hartshorne’s words—

The fact is that we need more and better trained teachers. Although attempts are being made, those attempts are not enough. Efforts must be increased, and that must happen now.

When we came to the budget earlier in this session there was obviously a great stress on the increase of money available for defence. There was no quarrel from these benches as to that increase. We made that point very clear. I want to try to make another point just as clear. If we are to believe our military leaders and the statements by many people in South Africa who should know, it is quite clear that no matter how much we spend on military hardware, we are simply not going to win the war in southern Africa. We believe it is imperative to win the war of the mind and of the spirit in South Africa. One of the best ways to do that is to provide the best possible education for all the peoples of South Africa. That is why we stress this. Hon. members on the other side of the House must not tell us what has been done. We on this side of the House are advocating what should be done. Their approach will get us nowhere at all. We agree that it is good that a lot has been done, but we add that a great deal more needs to be done, and we simply have to expedite matters.

The best thing the hon. Deputy Minister could tell this House today—in the same way that the hon. the Minister of National Education announced to South Africa that his Government has declared a new deal for teachers in South Africa—is that there will be a new deal for Bantu education in South Africa and that the Government is going to expedite the sort of development that has been taking place, and needs to take place at an even greater rate. The amount allocated in the budget for Bantu education is a mere 1% of the budget, a mere increase of R9 million. In relation to what has to be done, this is just a drop in the ocean. That is one-third of 1% of the gross domestic product. We simply cannot go on operating on that standard of priority in South Africa.

In the time that remains to me I just want to touch on one other aspect which is going to cost no money at all. However, it could do a tremendous amount of good for education and for the entire society in South Africa. If only the hon. the Deputy Minister would agree to amend a certain regulation, I believe it could do untold good in South Africa. I am referring to the question—I know it to be a controversial issue—of the medium of teaching in African secondary schools in urban areas. In the very long and excellent report which has already been referred to, we are told on page 52 that the policy of having half the subjects taught in English and the other half in Afrikaans is a consistent policy of the Government and that it is going to continue. When I put questions to the hon. the Deputy Minister earlier this session, he made it very clear that this was going to continue and that he did not even think it was necessary to keep the statistics of those people who had asked for some change to be made in this regard. This is the only group of people who are handicapped in this way. They are the only ones who are penalized in this way. Imagine the outcry if the young people at Jan van Riebeeck School were compelled to write their junior and senior certificate subjects in English. Imagine the outcry if the pupils of SACS were told that they had to write half their subjects in Afrikaans and the other half in English. Why on earth can Black children not enjoy the same sort of discretion and the same sort of choice which White children, Coloured children, Chinese children and Indian children enjoy? The only group of pupils who are penalized and victimized in this way are the Black children in secondary schools in urban areas. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, the hon. member for Pinelands advocated a larger investment in and increased expenditure on the training of teachers for the Bantu child. I can just tell him that the hon. the Deputy Minister himself will furnish answers in the field of teaching staff and the revision of salary scales. Since the hon. member referred to a quotation, I, too, want to read him a quotation. The person I want to quote, is a certain Jessie Jackson, a lieutenant of the late Dr. Martin Luther King. I want to quote what he said on the education of the Black pupil compared to that of the White pupil in the USA. I regret having to quote an example of this kind, but this is the country where Black pupils have full civic rights and where they share and have shared everything in equal measure with the White man and where they have been forced by legislation to participate in everything. I want to quote a single paragraph only. Jackson said—

After all the years of equal treatment according to statutory arrangement, according to law, this Black man advocated that the Blacks should accept a larger share of responsibility. I quote further—

We want to ask the hon. members of the PRP who are a bunch of political migratory birds—and I feel inclined to say that they are political vultures because they move from one political heap to another—why they readily avoid the sphere of integration in schools. They do not come anywhere near it today. They do not come anywhere near it, because if they did we would confront them with reports on a riot at a school in Boston where students come to blows because Black students had burnt the American flag in the school’s auditorium. They have full civic rights and a full say in the school and the country. A teacher at the school, a veteran of Vietnam, said that in all his battles in Vietnam he had never seen something as dreadful as he saw that day between White and Black students. Why are those hon. members avoiding this sphere today? After all, they advocate integration, because they say: “The parents and children should have their own choice to attend the schools which they prefer.” Surely that is integration. Why do they run away from integration today?

The ability of this single small department with a Deputy Minister in charge and the phenomenal growth for which it has been responsible astonish the whole world. It has been calculated that the growth in this sphere of education, calculated up to the day, from December 1972 to December 1975—a period of three years—represents 572 new pupils being admitted to school every day. Therefore, the growth equalled 572 Black pupils per day or an increase in the number of schools of 1½schools per day for every day of the past three years. The additional facilities to render this possible, were provided not only by the Whites, but also by the community structures of the homelands and by the Bantu authorities. We are very grateful for this. This is such a fantastic growth rate that it is in fact a disrupting factor as against the rest of the infrastructure of a community.

The Government is responsible not only for education, but also for developing the potential of the territories and homelands which have not yet gained independence. It is also responsible for the creation of employment opportunities to accommodate the developed Bantu after he has been trained. This is imperative. Our method of approach as regards the education of the Black people differs from that of those hon. members. The philosophy of the Government is that we want to educate the Black man essentially as a person and an individual belonging to a particular people, in other words, our object is to raise the strata of the people at the rate and tempo which our funds will allow. We envisage the development of a people within its own national context. We cannot educate the Blacks egoistically and selfishly with the sole object of supplying our own economy. The development must be such that the Blacks may also stimulate and develop the economy in the homelands. However, the infrastructure has to be created accordingly and investments must be made so that there may be reservoirs to which this stream of Bantu may flow for employment. This is illustrated to us very clearly.

After the teaching profession, in which 69 000 are employed the profession which employs the largest number of trained workers is that of Black nurses in the Republic. Forty thousand of them are registered and in the process of being trained. Why are there so many of them? Because employment opportunities do exist for them. We find them in the homelands at clinics and at hospitals which have been transferred and which are being transferred to the homelands to be dealt with as State hospitals. From the extension of our universities and primary and secondary schools we can see that our development has been phenomenal.

I should like to touch on another component. Is this development of the Bantu youth suspended in a vacuum or does a sounding board exist in this regard? Is there a cup somewhere in which it may be caught up? People sitting on those benches, are not able to understand the notion of something burning and welling up in a person. One gets this feeling, because one is proud to know that one belongs to a particular group of people. This is a notion which is indefinable and which one cannot express in words. However, it is something which binds one, in altruism and in piety, to that which is one’s own. The task of the Government is to make every Black child feel that he is being nourished and developed within a particular group and national context. This is of great importance to us, and that is why we are gradually giving those people the land which we have been keeping in trust. We are making it available to them as their own property, so that they may have space in which to live. But, Sir, it has to be more than beautiful mountains and streams of water and scenery. These have to be areas in which development can take place, areas in which those people can take over the infrastructure and the development of all sectors. I want to stress that this is territory which is theirs; it belongs to them. Recently we read in Die Burger of the beauty of the Klein Karoo. Similarly we should also be able to read in future in bulletins and in newspapers overseas of the beauty of the Transkei or of Gazankulu. Sir, this is their property and we are giving it to those people in accordance with the extent to which their development qualifies them to manage it correctly, to handle it correctly and to develop it correctly.

Now I come to the question of citizenship. We grant the people citizenship. We emancipate them to a stage where they may exercise rights as enfranchised and full citizens. They need not plead, as this Black American, who feels that he has been handled by the White man and that the White man has been thinking on his behalf over the years, has to do. Those people still feel inferior. We want to lead these people to full citizenship, to full development and to full adulthood. We give to these people constitutional government which enables them to govern their country without revolution and without bloodshed, with everything which accompanies this. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, the hon. member for Standerton has regaled us with what one could call a speech in two parts. The first part was his private war with the hon. member for Pinelands, which was followed by a general war with the “Progs”, and the second part dealt in the main with what he termed the phenomenal growth taking place by virtue of the fact that one and a half schools per day are being erected for the Bantu of our country. I wonder, Sir, if you will permit me to pull the rug from under his feet a little. If one and a half schools per day are being built for the Bantu of our country, is the establishment of boarding-hostels keeping pace? According to the figures which are available to us, the hostels in the homelands in 1973 numbered 187. In 1974 there were 201 and in 1975 204. Over the same three-year period the number of pupils in the homelands rose from 38 990 to 45 930. I submit that the two figures are not proportional to each other. A far worse situation arises when we look at the position in the White urban areas. In 1973 there were 28 hostels as against 30 in 1975. In the same period the number of pupils outside the Bantu homelands increased from 13 200 in 1973 to 19 200 in 1975. Sir, we need to build hostels faster than schools and at the rate of two and a half per day if we wish to accommodate the Bantu children requiring accommodation. I leave the hon. member with that happy thought.

In common with my colleagues, I wish the hon. the Deputy Minister well in his new post. I do, however, want to say this to him: I trust—and I say this in all kindness—that in his responses and replies he will deal with matters a little more speedily than he has dealt with a matter relating to a certain school in the area of Umhlali. I shall not elaborate on that, save to say that the hon. gentleman has taken quite a long time over an answer which I have been waiting for.

Mr. Chairman, we have heard much in this House over the past few months about the need to increase productivity. In fact, it is fair to say that South Africans of all races are today more conscious of the meaning and the importance of increasing productivity than they ever have been. This is not only vital in these highly inflationary times, but is also, I believe, essential for the continued existence and well-being of our South African society and our way of life. But tucked away in the regulations governing the administration of Bantu education, we have a situation that can only harm our constant striving towards this greater productivity. I am speaking of regulations in respect of the medium of education in African secondary schools situated in the White urban areas, and in this regard I agree with the hon. member for Pinelands. Pupils in these schools, in terms of the regulations, have to study for and write examinations in both official languages of the country, two or three subjects in English and two or three subjects in Afrikaans. At all other secondary schools, that is to say schools for Whites, Coloureds and Asians and African secondary schools in the homelands, the pupils are allowed to study for and complete their examinations in one of the official languages. I shudder to think of the indignation that would be expressed were these regulations to apply to such schools as, shall we say, Northlands Boys’ High School in Durban, Port Natal Hoërskool in Durban, or to Jan van Riebeeck Hoërskool or Bishops or Rondebosch Boys’ High School here in Cape Town.

Are you pleading for mother-tongue education?

I am making an intelligent speech, and you are making unintelligent interjections. Mr. Chairman, it follows also that it must require tremendous mental and emotional adjustment on the part of the teachers to have to switch from one language to the other several times a day. But this is not as traumatic as the mental and emotional efforts that are demanded of the African pupils, nor as traumatic as the frustrations they must feel at having to try to memorize the technological terms in a number of subjects in two official languages, neither of which—and I stress this—is necessarily their home or mother tongue. The result of all this is inevitable and obvious. We must inevitably find that there will be lower examination marks in each subject, and this is borne out in some measure by the statistics that were published in the annual report of the department. It must also be agreed that this situation will further inevitably result in the reduction of the possibility of obtaining the minimum pass aggregate or a first class pass for the pupil who has to write examinations under these conditions. I would also like to point out that each time a pupil, from any race group, fails an examination of this nature, it represents a wastage of public money, which I feel can be obviated in the case of these African pupils by a reappraisal of the situation by the hon. the Deputy Minister.

This brings me to another problem which I feel is deserving of ministerial attention. I am referring to the timeous announcement of Senior Certificate results, and in this connection I wish to refer to a question tabled by my colleague, the hon. member for Durban Central, which appears on page 53 of the questions section of Hansard of 3 February 1976. I quote—

1. (1) (a) When were Bantu candidates for the Junior and Senior Certificate examinations informed of the results of the 1975 examination, and (b) when did the schools and teacher-training colleges reopen in 1976;
2. (2) whether he will make a statement on the matter.

The Deputy Minister of Bantu Administration and Education then replied as follows—

1. (1) (a) Junior Certificate: Results were released on 17 January 1976 and were published in newspapers on 19 and 20 January 1976; Senior Certificate: Results were released on 21 January 1976.
   (b) 27 and 28 January 1976, except for schools in KwaZulu which reopen today.
2. (2) No.

Senior Certificate results were announced on 21 January, and I presume from the Minister’s reply that they were not published in the newspapers as was the case with the J.C. results. I would further presume that these results would have been mailed to all the examination candidates, and they could not possibly have reached them in under two to three days. This brings us to 24 January. Sir, you will agree, and you will be aware, from the Deputy Minister’s reply, that teacher training colleges reopened on 27 and 28 January. This means that the successful students with the required level of pass, as indicated by their symbols, had precious little time in which to gain admission to these colleges and in the case of those—and there must have been many of them—who travelled there in the hope of being admitted, can you imagine their disappointment, Sir, when they found that they had not obtained the symbols which were required to grant them admission? This, to them, would have proved an extremely expensive exercise. As I have pointed out, my hon. colleague went on to ask the Deputy Minister whether he would make a statement, and the hon. the Deputy Minister replied, “No”. I say this in all humility to the Deputy Minister, and it grieves me to say it; this was an arrogant and callous answer. It was a callous answer in the sense that here we had Bantu who had expended money needlessly because they did not have their results timeously.

Another problem which I feel is worthy of the urgent attention of the hon. the Deputy Minister results from the quota system, whereby a number of high school pupils from the urban areas are compelled to return to their homelands for their schooling. I submit that these problems are, firstly, sociological in that we are led to understand that the urban Bantu youth are not readily accepted at schools in the homelands and that many of them are expelled because of behavioural problems. A further aggravation is the question of accommodation. I dealt with the availability of hostels a little earlier in my speech. I ask the Deputy Minister: Do schools in the homelands have the necessary accommodation? Obviously not. Are there any plans for the establishment of additional boarding schools in order to cater for them? Now, Sir, there is much which can be said about the shortcomings of the present system and the regulations governing Bantu education. I have attempted in my address here this afternoon to be constructive and I trust that the hon. the Deputy Minister will be equally constructive in his replies to the questions and the suggestions I have put to him.

Mr. Chairman, I am rising to express my sincere thanks to hon. members for their congratulations and their good wishes on the occasion of my assumption of this task. I should like to pay my tribute to the hon. the Minister who has for all of ten years now been rendering service in the interests of this department. His years of service have coincided with great and epoch-making events in the history of South Africa, and I think the contribution he and his department has made to this history is considerable. I also want to pay tribute to the secretaries of the two departments, and in this case in particular to the Secretary for Bantu Education and his fellow-officials, for the very brilliant service they are rendering in the interests of this department. In addition I want to say thank you very much for an extremely valuable and very thoroughly compiled annual report which has been made available to members. That annual report has drawn favourable comment even from people who, politically, belong to the side opposite to the one to which I belong.

The estimates which are before Parliament in fact contain the financial implications of the purposeful development in the education of the Black people. In spite of certain discordant notes which we heard here this afternoon, I am certain that we have a very wide field of consensus and that all of us speak in the interests of the education and training of Black people. May I also inform hon. members who made contributions and asked questions, that I shall, D.V., reply tomorrow, when I conclude the discussion, to the questions and the misgivings of hon. members, as well as to those of the hon. member for Umhlanga! I think he may look forward with pleasure to the reply to his last misgiving.

One should not deal with this budget in isolation, for the budget is a continuation of the programme which has been purposefully introduced and adopted over the years to meet the educational needs of Black peoples. I have already referred to the annual report, which is a very thorough piece of work. In it a great variety of educational services are presented, all facets of the education, up to the tertiary level, which is being provided to Black pupils and students. Here is a wonderful example of the enormous progress which has been made in all spheres, and in a particular, too, the objectives which are being kept in mind with the present budget.

Sir, we have had quite a number of statistics here this afternoon. Perhaps one could in fact describe this discussion as the “battle of the statistics”. I hope I will be permitted to add just a few of my own.

The total number of pupils at the schools—I think it is necessary for us to consider this, even though members could point out that the ideal has not yet been attained and that we have not yet reached the 100% mark, which is the target set under a compulsory education scheme—is nevertheless significant, particularly if we take note of the progress which has been made.

In 1975 the enrolment was approximately 3,8 million, and that represented an increase of 400% over 20 years. We must now simply pick a date in the past with which to compare our achievements. The previous régime is a little too far back in the past. This 400% increase in the school enrolment compares very favourably if we take cognizance of what the increase in the population has been, and the increase in the population has been considerable. Over the same period it was approximately 170%. In 1976, the present year, it is calculated that the number of pupils attending school is 4 050 000—almost a quarter million more than last year.

To mention another figure: In 1955 9,8% of the Black population was attending school. They were attending a total of 5 800 schools with almost 22 000 teachers. That figure grew over the 20 years until the percentage Black population attending school was 20,3%, which is 75% of all children of school-going age. We then had 12 573 schools, with 68 000 male and female teachers. In 1976, the present year, the percentage of children at school had risen to 21,1% of the total Black population.

When we come to secondary pupils, we find that the number of pupils between forms I and V has increased from 209 519 in 1974 to 318 568 in 1975—an increase of 52%. Incidentally, this is also a reply to the hon. member for Edenvale, who said there were no facilities or schools for secondary pupils. But here we have an increase of 52% in the number of secondary pupils in the White area.

Reference was made to the students at the three universities. The number has grown from a mere 481 in 1960 to 4 133 in 1975. This means an increase of 57% per annum.

If we now consider a factor such as school-leaving, we see that, unfortunately, there is still a great deal of early school leaving. This matter is receiving attention from the department. The reasons for it are predominantly economic. There are many work opportunities for pupils who do not really have any qualifications. They can find a little job somewhere, and they jump at it. There are, in addition, no auxiliary classes for the mentally retarded and because there are no auxiliary classes and they cannot follow the ordinary courses at a school, it goes without saying that they do not benefit from that education, and because they cannot be accommodated elsewhere, they leave school. According to estimates there is approximately 10% to 15% of the population in any community that does not benefit from normal school training.

However, it is a privilege for me to announce here that the department has already introduced experimental classes at a few schools. Purposeful education for this group is being planned and tested. As soon as this system has been tested, it will progressively—and this is National-progressively now—be introduced in schools, particularly in those larger centres where the numbers will justify it.

You are coming close.

The hon. member for Pinelands quoted me incorrectly. He said that I had allegedly said that I was far more verlig than the hon. member for Houghton. What I actually said was that I was more purely progressive than the hon. member for Houghton. The emphasis is on the words “more purely ”.

You are coming right.

He is even speaking Afrikaans now! He will soon have come to my mother tongue! When we come to school admissions, it is possible, in the larger centres, for virtually all those attending school for the first time to be accommodated. We instituted a very exhaustive investigation of this matter in Soweto and Mamelodi. Do hon. members know what the findings were? In Soweto there were six pupils who had applied for admission but had not been accommodated, and the reason for their not being accommodated was not because there was no room. It was because their mothers were afraid of a certain road along which they had to travel to reach the school! However, there was a further interesting phenomenon which emerged. There were 980 pupils in Soweto who were admitted to the school before they had reached the prescribed age. This is what is happening under this dispensation on which so much scorn and abuse is being poured.

While I am dealing with statistics now, I want to give prominence to a few other interesting figures. I want to point out the increase in the enrolments, say between 1955 and 1975. In sub-standard A there was an increase of 270%, i.e. 13% per annum. There was an increase of 282 000 to 808 000 enrolments as far as sub-standard A was concerned. In standard 2 there was an increase of 370%; in standard 5 an increase of 480%; in form I an increase of 920%, i.e. an increase of 46% per annum; in form III an increase of 700%; and in form V, an increase of 1 336%. In respect of the latter the enrolments increased from 674 to 9 009.

However, hon. members ask us what we are doing, not what we have done. Well, this is what is happening, and this is happening according to the manner in which the National Party Government wishes to promote Bantu education in a positively progressive way. Of course it is not always possible to take up all the pupils into secondary schools. However, the indication is that 85% of the pupils who passed standard V in 1975, are in fact at school. For various reasons some of the remaining 15% had to go out to work. Perhaps it is not a fair comparison, but just compare the position for a moment with the position in Zambia where only 20 000 of the 80 000 pupils who passed Std. 5 in 1975 were in fact taken up into the secondary schools. This represents only 25% for that particular year. In one year, from 1974 to 1975, our Black secondary school-going population increased by 52%. However, if one adds 1976 and one takes the number of standard 6 pupils who also had to be accommodated in form I, the increase from 1974 to 1976 was 140%. We have succeeded in motivating the pupils to remain at school longer. This means that we have motivated the communities to keep their children at school longer.

When we come to compulsory education, a matter which was touched upon by certain hon. members, it may be said that we are gradually creating and preparing the situation that will enable compulsory education to be introduced in certain areas. All of us are in favour of it in principle, and the Black people are looking forward to it longingly. Members of the Cabinet of Basotho Qwaqwa have asked us to speed up the introduction of compulsory education. Feelings do not differ in regard to this matter, but we must face up to the practical situation.

I do not want to elaborate too extensively on the matter, but simply indicate a few aspects. Finance will have to be found to make the introduction of compulsory education possible. That finance comes to a large extent out of the pockets of the White tax-payers. We are prepared to speak to our own people and to persuade them to allocate as much as possible for this purpose. We shall do so. However, I want to put it in this way: We can have compulsory education if—and it is a very big “if”—our growth rate were to remain the same and if it is possible to maintain the increased financial support provided between 1973 and 1975. Unfortunately, owing to the cuts made in the 1976-’77 budget, we can expect a delay in the programme. With an increase of 9% in the allocation of the department we can only mark time, to say nothing of continuing in the direction of moving towards compulsory education. To be able to have compulsory education before 1982, there has to be an annual increase of 20% on the previous year’s estimates for four or five years in succession, so that after four years the estimates will be double what they were this year. The figure of 17% to 18% unqualified teachers has to be reduced to 7% to 8% at the most. These are all things which are necessary for compulsory education.

The number of pupils per teacher also has to be reduced. For example, it will take five to six years at the present rate to be able to achieve a ratio of 45 pupils to one teacher. To be able to arrive at a ratio of 45 pupils to one teacher in 1980, there has to be approximately 6 200 new primary school-teachers at the end of 1975, and an additional 1 000 annually until 1980. These are all requirements for such a vast project. To be able to attain the ideal of 45 pupils per teacher in the White area in 1980, the number of teaching posts in the department has to be increased by 2 800 in 1976, by 3 500 in 1978 and by 4 500 in 1980. I am pointing out the major requirements that will have to be met if such a great ideal is to be attained within the foreseeable future. I could say more about this, but provisionally I shall leave the matter at that.

I should like to say something about teacher training. It is of course true that there is a great deal in that regard that we should like to see improved. In 1955 there were approximately 5 900 student teachers. In 1976 this number moved up to 15 500. We should at least be fair and give credit for the progress that has been made. Over the next five years this number will have to increase by 1 000 per annum, and that is what we are envisaging. I also want to point out that in 1973 a scheme was introduced under which unqualified teachers who were in possession of a junior certificate and at least three year’s teaching experience, were admitted to a special one year professional course. After successful completion of the course they obtained the primary school-teacher’s certificate. This course has proved to be very popular and it will make a major contribution to the systematical elimination of unqualified teachers.

I want to point out, moreover, that at present there are 41 teachers’ training schools. This year three new teachers’ training schools were put into operation, another three are being planned for the immediate future. The goal which the department sets itself is to produce a minimum of 10 000 primary school teachers per annum by 1980. The admission qualifications for this course is the junior certificate. I do not want to discuss everything now, but the question of what we are doing to promote this production could perhaps be asked. According to projections we expect to have to produce more than 10 000 primary school teachers per annum by 1980, while there will be 6 100 primary school teachers with a primary teacher’s certificate in 1976.

There is another very interesting and important facet of training namely the industrial orientated training. The department is making a great contribution to this training. There are for example 18 ad hoc border industrial schools which are being run by the department itself. In 1975 alone, 2 376 employees were trained at these ad hoc border industrial schools. During the past five years more than 10 000 of them have been trained in this way. It may interest hon. members to know that the contribution of the State, by way of subsidies to these schools alone, amounted to R389 000.

A very important facet is of course in-service training. Notice has been given of a Bill in connection with in-service training which will soon be before Parliament. Very generous tax concessions have been made to industries that undertake such in-service training. A total of 142 schemes have been registered, and 423 different industrial courses are being offered. This is only as far as the registered schemes are concerned. Involved in these courses were no fewer than 55 591 employees who received in-service training in this way with a view to greater skill and increased productivity. Then, too, cognizance has not even been taken yet of the 158 schemes that have not been registered, and in respect of which the better trained employees have not been included. The State’s contribution to this training is virtually 97% as a result of the tax concessions which are being granted to the companies concerned. I want to add to this that five of our most senior officials have been placed at the disposal of this service training scheme.

There are, in addition, eight departmental industrial training centres. This year alone 12 800 pupils have received basic industrial training there. These training centres are in fact an extension of the ordinary schools, but basic training is given there for 2½ hours a week. These centres will be expanded so that each of these centres will be able to train 5 000 pupils annually. The programme makes further provision for the establishment of an additional four new centres. When all of them are functioning, it will be possible for 60 000 pupils to receive this kind of training annually. We hope that this will be possible from 1977 onwards.

Apart from that there is technical training as well. This year 3 400 pupils have received such training, at 24 trade schools situated throughout the Republic and South West Africa. Three trade schools are being planned for this year. Therefore, progress is being made.

I would also be able to elaborate on the question of advanced technical education. This is receiving constant attention. The numbers, however, are not large. There were only 401 students in 14 different fields of study in 1975. These include courses for engineering technicians, surveying technicians, geology technicians, telecommunications technicians, etc., as well as paramedical courses such as dental therapy, occupational therapy, dietetics, radiography and physiotherapy. These are all courses which are being offered. A few basic principles are contained in the budget. In the first place there is the provision of staff to the schools. An additional amount is being requested for the creation of additional posts to keep pace with the normal growth in the number of pupils. I have already pointed out that during the period 1975-’76 alone there was an increase of almost 250 000 in the number of pupils. Classroom space and teachers have to be provided for those additional 250 000 pupils. In addition provision has to be made from this amount to reduce the number pupils per teacher by approximately two. The idea is that, where there are 53 pupils in a class, for example, the number should be reduced to 51, or even to 50, and ultimately perhaps to 45. This means, however, that additional classroom space, additional furniture, additional staff and additional equipment has to be acquired. The cost of these things is enormous.

I should also like to say something in regard to the question of double sessions. It is my privilege to announce that the department has begun to create additional posts at certain schools this year by means of which double sessions will be eliminated. I am aware that an hon. member put a question to me in this regard earlier on. I did not reply to it because the plan was only put into operation this year, and because we shall still have to give consideration to its effect. I want to point out that with this new programme we envisage reducing double sessions. This will result in fewer teachers being involved in double sessions. However, I want to add that it is not the case—as an hon. member alleged here earlier on—that classes to which double sessions apply, inevitably have shorter lesson-hours. They receive the normal time for their tuition. The difference is merely that there are certain subjects, such as hygiene, religious tuition and so on, which overlap, and where two classes are able to receive joint tuition in the overlapping period between the first and the second sessions. Therefore precisely the same amount of time is allocated to each class, in that there is some overlapping.

At present 20% of all new appointments are being made with a view to gradually eliminating the system of double sessions. However, hon. members correctly pointed out that this does involve approximately 12 500 teachers. More than 5 000 of them fall under the Department of Bantu Education. The remainder fall under the homelands.

Someone asked a question about adult education. That matter is at present receiving the special attention of the department. It was announced last year that a division of the department was giving the necessary attention to this matter. The necessary investigation has been made. There are various organizations which are doing good work. There are other organizations whose activities possibly require a measure of investigation. In the estimates, however, provision has been made for an amount of R250 000, which will be employed to take over certain schools and certain classes and to test the needs and the effectiveness of this kind of education before a larger sum of money is appropriated for the purpose. Hon. members will appreciate that it is a new direction in which we are moving and that we first want to make sure that we are taking the correct steps.

Next I want to refer to farm schools. The basic premise of the department with regard to farm schools is that accommodation and school buildings have to be provided by the persons and bodies attracting Black labour to the White areas. Those persons and bodies have to accept responsibility for it. In this way farm owners also have to make provision for the school facilities of the children of their farm labourers and possibly, too, for the Bantu children in their vicinity. I also want to point out that since the subsidy allocated to a farm owner for the erection of a school building has to date amounted to R240 for a single classroom and R360 for a two-classroom school, provision has now been made in the estimates for an amount of R1 000 for a building with one classroom and R1 800 for a building with two classrooms. This is the purpose for which the amount of R200 000 which is mentioned in the estimates, is being requested.

In addition, there is the question of free school books. I want to point out that all reading books in the three languages— Afrikaans, English and the mother tongue of the pupil—are being supplied to primary schools by the department. This applies to all reading books. Each year every school has to submit a requisition for the supplementation of or replacement of the stocks. Generous provision is being made to the schools. Each pupil receives two reading books per language. An estimated 18 million books have already been supplied. With regard to text books, large-scale purchases are usually made at the end of the year if the full contribution for reading and library books has not been fully utilized. From the beginning of 1974 the department began with a scheme to provide schools systematically with free text books for content subjects. I could elaborate on that. If necessary, I shall return to this tomorrow, but I just want to mention this provisionally.

If one takes into consideration the progress we are making, and what we are planning, one can see that it is all aimed at systematically preparing the ground for eventual compulsory education. Before this can happen, however, there has to be a reduction in the ratio of pupils to teachers. There has to be an elimination of double sessions. Classrooms have to be erected, auxiliary classes have to be provided for the mentally retarded, free books have to be provided, there has to be a lowering of the admission age, etc.

It is a fact that if we want to reduce the ratio of pupils to teachers to 30 : 1, we shall have to double the number of teachers and classrooms. However, it is important to point out that the department has to take into consideration that it cannot move ahead more rapidly than the homelands are able to do. A total of 63% of the Black school-going population are at school in the homelands. We cannot move to far ahead or allow them to move too far ahead of us. Hon. members will understand why it is necessary for us to keep pace with each other in this regard.

Mention is sometimes made of the unit costs per pupil, as was again done this afternoon. However, may I request attention for another matter. What the budget of the Department of Bantu Education does not indicate, in other words, what is not included in respect of the unit costs per pupil, is the establishment of buildings by the Bantu Affairs Administration Boards and the building of farm schools by farmers. This physical development is not included. However, this is all part of the unit cost per pupil. The percentage of Black children in the lower classes is greater, and because the costs attached to the lower classes, are less, the average expenditure per pupil is accordingly lower as well.

Teachers’ salaries differ as well. Black teachers receive less than White teachers. If, in addition, the qualifications of a Bantu teacher are lower, it means that he earns a lower salary. It also means a further reduction in the expenditure per capita, i.e. per pupil.

I think I ought to give the entire picture. As far as the Republic is concerned, an amount of R77 885 000 is being budgeted for the 1976-’77 financial year. The budget of the homeland governments for education is R103 000 000. Added to that is the amount which the Department of Bantu Administration and Development pays the White staff in Black schools. This amounts to a further R4¾ million. The total therefore amounts to R185 774 000. In South West Africa a further R10 million is being spent. If one adds the capital works to the grand total of R196 000 000, the total then amounts to R215 000 000. After all, the expenses involved in capital works must also be included. In the Republic the amount is R15½ million, and in South West Africa, R3½ million. This does not include the amounts which are being spent on capital works by the Bantu Affairs Administration Boards and farmers on farms in the interests of Bantu education. If one were to divide the amount equally on the basis of the four million Black pupils, the unit cost per pupil would be R54. In South West Africa alone the amount in respect of pupils under the control of the department is R128 per pupil. There we make provision for the needs of all the Black pupils.

In my opinion the positive aspects of the appropriation are of importance. Hon. members pointed out that the appropriations amounted to R18 million in 1961. In 1975-’76 they had increased to R160 million. This is an increase of 900% or 56% per annum. It is a pity that the economic situation in this country necessitates Government spending having to be restricted to an increase of 6%, as indicated in the speech of the hon. the Minister of Finance. However, the amount which is being requested in the present estimates for Bantu Education does nevertheless represent an increase of 13%, which is in fact more than the general guideline, but less than the corresponding percentage last year.

I conclude by pointing out that the estimates do not, as far as salaries are concerned, make provision for the salary increases announced by the hon. the Prime Minister. An additional amount will therefore have to be appropriated. The 10% increase, as announced, applies to White officials. The salaries of Black officials, including Black teachers, will have to be supplemented by an amount which will result in a higher percentage. The intention is to incorporate the 10% and at the same time bring about a narrowing of the gap between the salaries of Whites and non-Whites. The precise extent of this has not yet been finalized, and therefore this is all that I am able to say at this stage. However, I also want to point out that attention is being given to the revision of the salary structure of Bantu teachers. This will possibly result in new key scales for teachers. However, further particulars are not available, for the matter is still being investigated.

Mr. Chairman, in adding my congratulations to the hon. the Deputy Minister on assuming his new post, I must confess that, having listened to this rather remarkable and almost pyrotechnic display of figures he has given, I hope he does not end up as other Ministers and Deputy Ministers have who initially were also very promising incumbents of the post. He has painted a very bright picture today, which on the face of it leads one to believe that everything in the garden is rosy, that the progress has been remarkable and in fact amounts to one of the most fantastic achievements which the Government has to its credit. However, if one looks at the practical side, one does not get that picture at all. The whole matter was discussed very fully and on an extensive basis during the debate last year. If the hon. the Deputy Minister would care to examine what was said last year, he would find all the very same issues with regard to the enormous finance that is required, all the same problems that he has raised now, save that now the hon. the Deputy Minister speaks with a tremendous amount of conviction, almost leading one to believe that everything has been set in motion. In response to a question in connection with a very important matter, namely the question of double session, a promise was made last year that it would receive immediate attention. All authorities claimed that it was one of the most vital factors of the day and it was stated that it was a contributory factor in causing a lot of wastage in enrolment. It was promised that something would be done and that something had to be done. Yet, in reply to a question earlier this session, the hon. the Deputy Minister said nothing had been done. His answer was a plain and unequivocal “no”.

The question which was put to him was: What progress has been made since 1 January 1975 in the elimination of double sessions in schools under his control? The reply was “None”. There were no embellishments to that at all, and one wonders what the promises of this hon. the Deputy Minister will mean. Another question which still remains a burning and sore problem, is the question of the improvement of salaries. This has been pressed in this House session after session. We have pointed out how vital it is to increase salaries in order to attract people to the profession. Does the hon. the Minister realize that a male teacher receives a starting salary of R92 per month in the primary school? According to the present determination, the average labourer is earning R80 to R90 per month, as the lowest salary on the scale. Women teachers receive R80 a month.

Is that the only possibility?

Well, these are the figures given to us. Unless the hon. the Minister proves it to be otherwise, these are the starting figures on the scale. These aspects should receive immediate and absolute attention.

In the days of the UP it was £10 per month.

Yes, that may well be, but that was 28 years ago. Does that hon. member realize that seven or eight years ago the whole budget was R2 billion as against R10 billion today? The gross national product was about one sixth of what it is today.

The national income has gone up 15 times.

Yes. So that hon. member made a nonsensical statement.

We now come to the question of text books. Apparently the total cost involved in supplying text books would be R3 191 760, in terms of a reply that was given. It was also said that it would be reached by 1977. The hon. the Minister gave these estimates in reply to a question put to him last year. The date has now been extended to 1979. However, I think it is a very vital question. The process should have been accelerated already. I want to agree with the hon. the Minister, that the report is a very interesting reflection of the activities of the department. I should like to go so far as to say that the department consists of a considerable number of very dedicated officials, who are trying to do their best. Their best, however, can only be their best in terms of the slow crawling movement of Government policy. I would not be so proud of the small sum of R77 million which appears in the budget at the moment. The hon. the Deputy Minister included the figures of all the homelands, but I cannot verify the figure of R215 million he has given me. It seems astronomical. However, the point is that R77 million is provided for here. The hon. the Minister maintains that it comes out of one source of taxation. I am not terribly upset about that either, although I think it comes from more than one source of taxation. One of the members on the Government side went to the trouble of explaining that there are 1½ million Black taxpayers today as against a third or quarter of that figure some years ago. According to that hon. member the number is continually increasing.

Of course the funds come from the general purse of the country, but what is wrong with that? If the Black man improves his economic situation, if his contribution to the GNP improves, if his standard of living improves and if his earning capacity improves, he will obviously make a greater contribution to the general funds of the country and he will fully justify an increase in the budget figure. Actually I think the figure is very low indeed. The hon. the Deputy Minister talks about the number of schools, but I want to know from him why it is still necessary for private agencies to make tremendous contributions to the provision of schools. Last year one of the members on the Government side acclaimed this fact with tremendous pride and praise. On this very day R80 000 is being donated by the Argus group for a new school. I have often felt ashamed of the fact that the public has to provide the very much needed schools in some of the big centres of our country. The hon. the Deputy Minister talks about schools and classrooms as if they are simply coming off a conveyor belt. If it were not for the assistance of the public, the need for schools would have been much greater. That particular group of newspapers contributed about 32 schools in Soweto alone. I think it is a fantastic contribution. Why must we rely on them for that? Why must we feel elevated because we have been able to get something from the public? After all, it is the Government which is responsible for the Black man, not only because he is Black, but also because he is a citizen. The Government is also responsible for him in the interest of the community. After all, what is the basis of the disciplinary life of the country if not the educational life of the community? The entire discipline of the country hinges on that. It is to the advantage of all sections of the country that education progresses at the fastest possible rate despite the extra costs.

I do not know why we always complain of the fact that the money comes from the coffers of the so-called White taxpayers. I think it is one of the most fallacious and foolish arguments we could ever use, and I think it is time that the hon. the Deputy Minister dropped silly statements of that nature and rather concentrated on what is needed. He should concentrate not only on what is needed despite difficulties, but also to overcome the difficulties. The hon. the Deputy Minister must ensure that he overcomes them as speedily as possible, because all is not as rosy in the garden, as he maintains. We are aware, and it has been stressed, that there is a shortage of equipment and that there are many other deficiencies, such as a shortage of teachers in certain technical subjects.

Mr. Chairman, may I put a question to the hon. member?

No, I have no time for that.

† All these things are absolutely important in assuring a happy and contented community.

The last matter I want to raise with the hon. the Deputy Minister is that it is all very well looking with pride at the percentage increases in the numbers in the higher standards. However, percentage increases are also fallacious figures. If a man earned R1 and improves to R2, he increases his salary by 100%. Therefore percentages can be fallacious. The fact that from the millions who start school, the figure drops away almost to nothing by the time they reach matric. That is the serious situation we have today. [Time expired.]