Mr. Chairman, this hon. committee will know that, in proportion to the time allotted for the discussions of other Votes, not much time is allotted for the discussion of the Transport Vote as such in this Committee Stage. Nevertheless, I do not think that this is an indication of a lack of interest in this Vote. It is a fact that transport is a matter which affects each one of us. Whether one likes it or not, one must be on wheels today to be able to earn a living in the modern world. For this reason I say that this is a Vote which affects each one of us in one way or another in modern life.

I want to point out, however, that we are actually discussing this Vote in an abnormal atmosphere today, because there are two matters which fall neatly into place in this debate but which may not be discussed in depth at the moment. In the first place there is the Urban Transport Bill which is to be discussed in the near future; or at least, so I assume. It is a matter of extreme importance to South Africa, and its scope will only be recognized and felt by the population of this country in years to come. Although the Bill will be discussed at a later stage only, I want to say on this occasion, however, that I am of the opinion that the hon. the Minister took a very wise step by giving to specific interest groups outside an opportunity to go somewhat deeper into the matter and to make the necessary representations to him in that regard. Secondly, Sir, there is as important a matter which may not be discussed today, and that is the question of road transport. Road transport today represents approximately 50% of South Africa’s transport. It may not be discussed at the moment because of the fact that a commission of inquiry is investigating the whole matter. I should like to express the hope that the commission is doing its work in a productive manner, and that this House will in due course be able to discuss the findings of that commission in the form of a Bill.

Sir, I want to dwell on a subject this afternoon which has often been discussed in this House. I make no apologies for doing so once more. I am referring to the matter of road safety. I believe this to be a subject which is to be discussed over and over again so that the seriousness of this matter may be brought home to the public. Road accidents have assumed such proportions at the present time that the matter is receiving attention in international world forums. A recent report states that even the World Health Organization is engaged at present in gathering statistics in order to investigate the magnitude of this problem. It is alarming to think, in the modern times in which we are living, while literally millions of rand are being spent in order to combat specific diseases, that 10 million people are involved in accidents the world over each year and that a quarter of a million people die on the roads of the world each year. It seems to me at times as though the modern world simply accepts this slaughter on the roads as payment for the tremendous asset the motor vehicle has become in the world.

I also want to say at once that I am not unaware of the good work which is being done by the National Road Safety Council, but, I believe nevertheless that we should dwell on this matter once again and that we should devote our attention to it anew.

Road safety and road accidents have become a world affair and South Africa has not escaped the epidemic of road accidents. I need not even remind this House of what the case was a week or two ago. Every day there were headlines in the newspapers of South Africa reminding us of the fact that the long weekend was ahead and that so many and so many people would lose their lives. Sir, the predictions were not far out. This is a serious matter which affects all of us. In saying this I do not want to suggest that I am such a good driver; far from it. I am just an ordinary driver, and perhaps even poorer than the average. Nevertheless, this is a matter in which all of us should take an interest because it affects so many of us.

I have here a newspaper report in which the casualty rate on our roads is analysed. The report states that it has become an epidemic. In applying these particulars to South Africa, I say that we have not escaped this epidemic. I now want to view the matter in all simplicity. What is the cause of road accidents today? The World Health Organization identified three causes. The first is the human factor, the second, the motor vehicle itself and the third, the roads. Normally these three factors contribute to accidents, but the main cause of road accidents and the casualty rate on our roads is not the car nor the roads, but the human factor, and this brings me to the position in South Africa.

We have a population in South Africa which is perhaps not properly motivated to fulfil its duty in this regard at all times. I think we can do a great deal more to bring home to the population the tremendous danger which faces each one of us. I ask myself: How are we to set about things in this regard? In the first place I believe we should pay attention to the mental attitude of the people. Regrettably I have to say that it would appear at times as though the South African—and I include myself—does not always realize the danger which the motor vehicle constitutes today. Sir, I personally try to keep to the speed restrictions. When I am travelling in the third lane, the fast lane, people still approach from behind flicking their lights at night to overtake. This happens when I am driving at the prescribed speed. Other people again sound their horns behind me.

But older people should keep left!

Yes, apparently I am one of the aged, but the fact remains that it has evidently become a feat today to elude the traffic police and to break the regulations concerning speed restrictions. I think this is something which is extremely wrong. It should be brought home to the nation that laws are made to be observed and not to be broken. I think the traffic police can occupy their time fruitfully by informing and guiding the nation instead of going to a parking area to see whether or not one has been parking there for ten minutes too long. Therefore I maintain that the people must be motivated, in the first place, to be safety conscious. In the second place attention should be given to the man who sits behind the steering wheel. Cognizance should be taken of how he conducts himself.

In this regard, too, a problem arises. Drivers’ licences are issued in the Cape Province, in the Transvaal, in the Free State, in Natal, in the Transkei, in Botswana, in Lesotho, in Swaziland and in Rhodesia, according to different standards. The people do not keep to their own areas. Traffic overlapping is taking place continuously. So one may find a very poor driver from the Cape Province going to the Transkei and causing a fatal accident there, or vice versa. The point I am trying to bring home is in the first place, that we should try—and I wonder whether the hon. the Minister cannot take the lead in this regard—to bring about a uniform system for the issuing of drivers’ licences in Southern Africa. The tests which are laid down should be approximately the same for all licence holders and, secondly, we should see to it that all people who get in behind a steering wheel have a licence.

Here in my hands I have an alarming report which appeared in the Sunday Times. The hon. the Minister probably saw it too. “20 000 drive with false licences ”. This is a statement which was made by Mr. P. W. van Veen, chief of the Transvaal Provincial Inspectorate, and he definitely is a man who knows what he is talking about. He alleges that an enormous trade in drivers’ licences exists on a national scale in South Africa, especially when it comes to Bantu drivers who drive heavy lorries. Not only are these people evading the law, not only are they paying R150 to R300 per licence, but they cannot drive properly either, and in this way we find them on the roads of South Africa where they endanger the lives of other motorists on the road.

I believe, firstly, that the hon. the Minister should take cognizance of the report, secondly, that the hon. the Minister should determine whether the facts are correct and, thirdly, if the facts in the report are more or less correct, I believe that this is a matter of exigency requiring close co-operation with the hon. the Minister of Justice in order to put an end to this evil. And when he has done this, I believe the hon. the Minister should consult his road safety people to devise a uniform system for South Africa and the Transkei, which will shortly be independent, and Botswana, Lesotho and Swaziland so that we may have uniform standards in this greater South Africa as regards the issuing of licences. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, if ever there was a matter on which I agreed with the hon. member for Maitland, then it is this very matter he has just discussed briefly, because if ever there was something which caused the greatest degree of concern, not only to all of us present in this House, but also to every person outside this House, then it is the matter which was discussed by the hon. member for Maitland. Sir, right at the outset I want to say that I do not want to give the impression this afternoon that I have all the answers with respect to road safety, but on this occasion I do want to say this—and I address myself to the hon. the Minister of Transport— that if ever there was a time in South Africa that road safety and everything connected with it should enjoy the highest priority, then that time is now. Just consider for a moment that some of our young men die on our borders from time to time to the distress of everyone, and consider for a single moment that more people died on our roads in one weekend, the past Easter weekend, than were killed on our borders over a long period, and when we do so we must realize that this is a matter which deserves the highest priority. Let me state quite clearly that I am the first person to admit that counteracting this greatest evil, if I may put it so plainly, is naturally a problem which cannot be solved so easily, because there are many aspects to road accidents. But what concerns me particularly, is the fact that we in South Africa have the highest road accident rate of all the countries of the Western world. Let me read the following to hon. members—

Listen to these figures—

These figures point to the necessity that this matter be discussed under this Vote. However, I know it is not the easiest problem in the world to solve. According to the National Road Safety Council there has been a high correlation between the increase in the number of motor vehicles and the increase in the number of road accidents over the past 20 years. The increase in the number of road accidents has corresponded to a large extent with the increase in the number of vehicles, viz. approximately 7% per year. This high accident rate leads to a death rate of approximately 22 persons per day on our roads. This is an appalling figure. Twenty-two of our people die on our roads every day as a result of road accidents! Has the time not come, therefore, to take drastic steps, which are recommended by experts from time to time?

After the institution of the fuel conservation measures on 14 November 1973, an immensely positive effect on road safety in South Africa was seen at first Within the first year after these measures were instituted, according to the Department of Statistics, accidents decreased by 9%. I am now referring to the year 1973-’74. Fatal accidents during that period decreased by the unbelievable figure of 33%. Since the lowering of the general speed limit was the most visible and direct factor, speed was very soon picked out by the general public as the major single cause of accidents. Although speed is an important factor, the lowering of speed is not the permanent solution for the problem of road accidents with which we in South Africa are faced.

In order to prove this statement, I just want to mention a few facts. In 1975, in spite of the very much lower speed which was maintained in comparison with the speed which had been maintained before the implementation of the fuel conservation measures, the accident and casualty rate soon showed a tendency to return to what it had been before the implementation of the fuel conservation measures. Between 1974 and 1975 the number of accidents increased from 213 103 to 260 075, viz. an increase of 22%. The death toll increased by 28%, namely from 6 344 in 1974 to 8 140 in 1975. The total number of accidents for 1975 has already exceeded the figure for 1973 of 221 528, which was before the implementation of the above mentioned measures. This therefore constitutes absolute proof that there is no real single solution for road accidents in South Africa. Speed is indeed a contributing factor because the intensity of accidents decreased considerably. A low speed may therefore lead to a drop in the number of fatal accidents as a result of the lower intensity of accidents, but precisely what the most justifiable and acceptable speed is according to scientific facts, remains an open question. One cannot therefore counteract this evil by merely reducing speed. The other factors which cause road accidents are legion. I should just like to mention a few briefly. Unfortunately I do not have the time to deal with all the causes, but I would nevertheless like to put a few questions to the hon. the Minister of Transport. The first is: Are our roads in South Africa today built in such a way as to have the least possible number of danger points and are we satisfied that the roads which are being built in South Africa today, are being built so scientifically that they counteract road accidents at all times? The second question is whether we are satisfied with the standards of safety of the motor vehicles we use on our roads. I am very pleased to know that the Bureau of Standards is at present engaged in an investigation in this respect. I also want to know if it has not become urgently necessary for us to think seriously of making the wearing of seat belts compulsory. I ask these questions only to draw attention to a few specific points. As far as the compulsory wearing of seat belts is concerned, it is interesting to note that this has been applied most effectively in Australia. It is alleged that the wearing of seat belts in South Africa could reduce the death toll by up to 500 per annum. Today there are 15 countries in the Western world where the wearing of seat belts has been made compulsory by legislation. In this connection I refer to France, Germany, the Netherlands, Belgium, Japan, Sweden and Australia.

What is very important to me, is the question whether we in South Africa should not try to maintain a better attitude on the road. In my opinion the people in South Africa should be told every day that we should exhibit an attitude on the roads which, when we enter a motor vehicle, will indicate that we have respect and regard for people driving another motor vehicle. What is even more important: I think that we have such a great responsibility in respect of this important matter, that the question of a better attitude on our roads should be given attention in the home, too. Is the time not ripe for our parents to tell their sons and daughters that when they are behind the steering wheel of a motor vehicle, they should not only have respect for their own life and vehicle, but also for those of the other people who use the roads?

The last question I want to ask, since my time has almost expired, is whether the time is not ripe for us to place the whole traffic system in South Africa under the S.A. Police once again. I believe that the S.A. Police have been trained to be able to apply control over our traffic system and I also believe that they have the respect of everyone in South Africa. I am also of the opinion that if we were to do so, we would eliminate this continual overlapping in respect of road safety in South Africa. I believe that this overlapping is a source of concern for many people in South Africa. Why should there be overlapping? [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, I wish to raise two completely different matters with the hon. the Minister. The first one is in connection with the work of his department, in the administration of the Merchant Shipping Act and the making of regulations in terms of that Act. It also has an additional function which I think is very important and which arises from the administration of that Act. I refer to the issuing of certificates of qualification and of competence. I should like to ask the hon. the Minister whether South African certificates of qualification received by our mariners are valid in other countries of the world. Reference has been made in the report to the fact that there is a shortage in South Africa of qualified people for shipping services. Therefore, the question arises whether our qualifications are recognized and if not, why not. I frankly do not know. There is also the question of certificates of competence which are given these days in respect of craft as small as fishing vessels. At the moment there are about 700 registered fishing vessels and 49 pleasure boats, the skippers of which have received certificates of competence.

This brings me to a matter which I raised in the House not so long ago, when an amendment to the Merchant Shipping Act was debated. I refer to the position of smaller boats than those vessels which fall within the ambit of the Merchant Shipping Act. There are hundreds and thousands of smaller craft which use our coastal waters without any supervisory authority whatsoever. Earlier in this session I drew the attention of the hon. the Minister to it and for a moment I thought during his reply to the Third Reading debate that he was going to say that his department had taken over responsibility for safety regulations concerning all vessels using our waters, but to my disappointment he said that it would only be the larger vessels, because the administration would become too cumbersome if smaller vessels were also included.

This matter is becoming increasingly urgent. I would urge that the department give consideration to the possibility of taking under its wing at least the provision of safety requirements for all vessels, including small vessels. There is a not inconsiderable loss of life but what is even worse is the endangering of the lives of others who have to go to sea in order to try to rescue those people in small vessels, particularly when those vessels have no safety equipment, as is often the case, or are, frankly, not even seaworthy. We have dangerous seas off our coasts and many members of the public take maritime affairs far too lightly. Many think one can get into any form of vessel and safely embark on a trip around our coast.

Arising from this matter I have been busy discussing, is the whole question of maritime administration in South Africa. Quite apart from the Navy, which is a department in itself, there is the Department of Transport, which is responsible for certification and safety regulations concerning larger vehicles, there is the South African Railways and Harbours Administration, which is responsible for the administration of commercial harbours, there is the Department of Commerce and Industry, which deals with the smaller harbours which, I think, one could call the fishing harbours, and there is also, strangely enough, the Department of Sport and Recreation, which since last year has become responsible for the building of small boat harbours, although it has not yet exercised that responsibility. I have mentioned time and again in this House the necessity for one department to take under its wing the building of small boat harbours, because at the moment the facilities are hopelessly inadequate. Every Tom, Dick and Harry, who has a boat in his back-yard, thinks he can launch that boat from somewhere along our coastline and more particularly from our open beaches. It is a crazy situation. There is absolute chaos. I would ask the hon. the Minister to take a lead in establishing some form of greater co-ordination and, if possible, to give his attention to the establishment of a Department of Maritime Affairs to cover all these things which fall outside the ambit of the Navy’s activities.

I should also like to refer briefly to two international sea conferences that have been held on the subject of the law of the sea. The one was held at Caracas the year before last, and the other last year at Geneva. I am very pleased to see that the Department of Transport was in fact represented at both of those conferences. Since pollution of the sea, which falls within the ambit of the department, is so important and is, indeed, being combated with some success, I would urge the hon. the Minister to give consideration to the possibility of his department also taking a lead in this particular sphere by persuading the Government to extend our sea limits. I have referred time and time again in this House to the necessity for us to have an “economic” sea limit of 200 miles and for our territorial waters to be extended to 12 miles. That is a subject I hope to deal with in greater detail before the end of this session.

In conclusion, I want to refer briefly to a matter which has been brought to my attention and which, I think, should be mentioned in the House. I refer to the question of the provision of bus services for the Coloured people at Mitchell’s Plain. There will be approximately 250 000 Coloureds there and there are going to be approximately 60 000 houses there. The Coloured Development Corporation is providing business and commercial sites for the non-White people at Mitchell’s Plain. However, for some reason or other, when it comes to transport, Tollgate Holdings is given the concession for the provision of bus services in Mitchell’s Plain. There was in fact another applicant consisting wholly of Coloured shareholders and Coloured directors, who were able to provide Coloured capital, and yet the Tollgate Holdings subsidiary known as the Mitchell’s Plain Bus Company was given this concession, while they in fact have only a 50% shareholding for Whites and 50% for Coloureds. There have been protests about this in the Press and also in the Coloured Representative Council. It seems to me that the local transportation board has indeed made a wrong award, because if one has a Coloured company able to serve Coloured people with Coloured capital and with Coloured staff and knowhow, it seems to me that such a company should at least be given a concession in that particular area. If there is room for two bus services in that area, I would suggest that consideration be given to the applicant who has been awarded that concession and also to a bus company which could be run by the Coloured people and for the Coloured people.

It seems to me as if the Coloured people are very often given the unscheduled bus services, which are the least profitable services. On the other hand, it seems, Whites are given the scheduled services which, I am told, are the most profitable. At least on the basis of equity and justice, I believe that the hon. the Minister should look into this matter to see whether it is not possible to give the Coloured people a bus company of their own and to provide that very necessary bus service to Coloured people at Mitchell’s Plain.

Mr. Chairman, the hon. member for Simonstown touched on a few very interesting matters. However, in the nature of the matter I do not, unfortunately, have the time to discuss them at length, apart from referring in passing to his representations concerning small boats. We all believe that this is a very deserving cause. However, at this stage the problem is that there are approximately 20 000 of those smaller boats. Those boats are launched at any conceivable spot along our coast and controlling this is, in the nature of the matter, extremely difficult. However, I believe that this is a matter which necessitates definite attention, especially when the numerous needless deaths which occur— the recent accident at Kleinmond is a case in point—are taken into consideration. In that case, too as so often happens, people ventured out into the sea, defying all warnings, and there were no control measures in terms of which they could be prohibited from venturing out.

If time permits, I should like to refer later to Mitchell’s Plain and the possibility of a bus service for the Coloureds who live there. This is one of the points raised by the hon. member for Simonstown.

However, I first want to refer briefly to another matter. To be able to do this, I certainly do not need to refer to the large variety of functions which this department must perform. We know, after all, that this is a department which operates over a tremendously wide field. The field covered by this department stretches from the highly technical activities of meteorologists and the Antarctic research programme, to the construction of national roads and the administration of compulsory third party insurance.

Another very important aspect of the activities of this department is the National Road Safety Council. Other hon. members have spoken about it already and more hon. members will probably be referring to that council in the course of this debate. To my mind the primary function of this department is the statutory control of traffic, whether road traffic or urban traffic, and the facilities which must be provided in this regard. However, within this broad framework there is still today one cardinal area over which this department does not exercise direct control. This is road traffic. In South Africa we still have the system that local authorities exercise a full say and full control over traffic measures. In the nature of the matter one cannot raise any objection to this in principle. However, in practice the problems are legion. The greatest is the financial problem. In our province, and certainly in other provinces as well, local authorities are nowadays to an increasing extent having difficulty balancing their budgets with the income from their limited sources of taxation. The limited sources of taxation of local authorities necessarily cause them to employ traffic departments as an instrument with which to earn revenue rather than for education and control. In other words, what this amounts to is that the budgeting for traffic departments is out of all proportion so that they may supplement their tax from other sources. The way in which this is done has already created so much opposition, resistance and antagonism among the public, that cooperation between the motoring public and the traffic departments of the various local authorities is out of the question. Whereas a traffic constable should actually have commanded the greatest respect because he controls traffic and because he encourages the safe use of roads, he is today, due to the policy which is being followed, regarded as the greatest malefactor—if I may put it like that—and is becoming the object of the antagonism of every member of the motoring public.

Because Cape Town is close to us, I want to take it as example to illustrate my standpoint. The speed traps in Cape Town are mainly on roads where these measures have nothing to do with the safeguarding of traffic. On the contrary. The effect of the speed traps on the roads is rather to make a transgressor of the ordinary driver.

To prove this statement, I want to point out to hon. members the most popular speed traps on the Cape Town roads. When the fuel saving measures were introduced, the general speed limit was 50 km/h. But with the lifting of the limits of 50 and 80 km/h the Cape Town Municipality suspended its previous speed limits within the municipal area and introduced lower speed limits. Let us take the Eastern Boulevard, on which no pedestrians are allowed and where there can virtually never be slow traffic, as an example. Previously this road was subject to a speed limit of 70 km/h, but this was reduced to 60 km/h. Today there are four speed traps in the direction of De Waal Drive and an additional three downhill in the direction of Cape Town. Another example is Union Avenue near Forestry on the way to Fernwood. Although this road is very open, the speed limit there has been reduced to 60 km/h from 70 km/h. There are six speed traps on this short stretch of road. The speed limit on Settler’s Way from where it starts at the Groote Schuur bend to the Pinelands turnoff, was 80 km/h. This has been reduced to 60 km/h. This was done with the sole aim of being able to create traffic offences. When travelling along Settler’s Way in the morning one finds a traffic which flows reasonably well, until one reaches the turnoff to Pinelands, from which point the speed limit is suddenly 60 km/h. From there one travels at a snail’s pace to Cape Town. I can mention many examples where speed limits of this kind tend to disrupt the traffic and make transgressors of drivers rather than educate the driver. For the convenience of my colleagues who live in Acacia Park, I just want to warn that the eastern part of the Wingfield Boulevard is being used by the Municipality of Goodwood as source of revenue, while the western part is being used by the Cape Town Municipality as a source of revenue. They should therefore be careful when driving that way.

Cape Town’s revenue from traffic fines in respect of the magisterial districts of Cape Town and Wynberg, amounted to more than R1 million for the year 1 April 1975 to 31 March 1976. More than 50% of this came from speeding offences on the few roads to which I have referred.

One asks oneself whether the approach of local authorities concerning traffic arrangements would have been the same if they had not received the fines and had rather deposited the fines in a central fund. Would this not perhaps have made a difference to the approach of local authorities? Whereas legislation has not yet been passed—we are expecting legislation in this regard to be introduced in due course—we shall have to think along the lines of a central body or a metropolitan council in which fines may be deposited. Local authorities will then, in the nature of the matter, lose income. After all, they have to maintain their traffic departments, and will therefore have to be subsidized to a certain extent. But there is a precedent for the subsidizing of a local authority. Library services are already being subsidized and even as regard traffic a certain degree of subsidization already takes place with regard to the patrol cars which are used on highways by the traffic departments of local authorities. Two-thirds of the costs with regard to motor cycles are subsidized.

I honestly believe that when this particular source of income is taken away from local authorities, traffic constables may serve a purpose other than sitting behind bushes on the outskirts of towns and watching out for people who exceed the speed limit. One would then find that confidence would build up between drivers and traffic officers. It would then be possible to educate people to consider the other driver as well, as the hon. member for Welkom so effectively put it.

I now come to the recommendation of the hon. member for Simonstown. He asked the hon. the Minister to see to it that when all things are equal in Mitchell’s Plain, the Coloureds be afforded the opportunity to establish a company which may be responsible for the conveyance of passengers in that area. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, it was with considerable interest that I have listened to the various contributions from hon. members this afternoon. I cannot but agree with the hon. member for Maitland. He said we were conducting this debate in a rather unusual atmosphere in that two major pieces of legislation appear on the Order Paper at the moment, namely the Urban Transportation Bill and the Road Transportation Bill. Because of this, the field of discussion is narrowed down to some of the lesser aspects of the activities of the Department of Transport.

I want to raise the matter of the Springs bus boycott and the part played by his department in connection with it. I believe that lessons that were learnt from this unhappy affair must be taken to heart. There is no doubt at all that increases in bus fares always cause such unfavourable reactions on the part of the bus users that, potentially, boycotts become flash points of violence and of civil unrest. I believe that increases in bus fares is a matter of such extreme sensitivity that the Government, through the Department of Transport, must be very careful indeed how it handles applications for far increases in the first place and, in the second place, it must do everything in its power to resolve any dispute as amicably as possible. In neither of these aspects has the department been without fault in the past. The handling of the Kwa Thema boycott was extremely unsatisfactory. Twenty-five thousand Africans felt so strongly about the fare increases that they were prepared to walk up to 20 km per day for eight weeks rather than give in. At the end of that period, after minor concessions on the part of the authorities and after considerable harassment by departmental inspectors, the bus users went back to using the buses, but in a state of sullen submission and unhappiness.

I believe that the Government should go to the heart of the matter. It is a simple fact that the Government’s policy of separate development means that thousands of Black people have to live considerable distances from their place of work. The cost of transport to and from the so-called White cities places an intolerable burden on people whose income is very close to the poverty datum line. It is completely unreasonable to expect these people to pay for the Nationalists’ ideology, and the Government must realize that, if necessary, it must be prepared to subsidize bus fares for economically depressed communities. This must be accepted by it as part and parcel of the price of apartheid. Putco has already asked for further increases of approximately 20% on bus fares throughout the country on the grounds of rising costs. I am quite certain that these increases can be justified, but in view of the social implications of these possible increases, I want to ask the hon. the Minister to think very carefully indeed before any final decision is reached. This does not only apply to Putco, but also to other bus owners. The African bus service in Pretoria is also asking for increases on the grounds of cost escalation. If the pattern is going to be one of increased fares, followed by boycotts, followed by strike-breaking actions on the part of the authorities, followed by belated negotiations and followed by unhappy submission, then we are approaching the problem completely wrongly and I believe the results could be catastrophic. I think that the hon. the Minister realizes this, and at a time of inflation he must be very unhappy indeed at the thought of requesting subsidies, but the Government must stand by the results of its actions and its policies. There may well be other ways of handling this situation, involving greater employer contributions under the Bantu Transport Services Act, and I believe that these possibilities must be thoroughly explored before precipitate action is taken and an explosive situation is brought about. I also believe that the department must react far more quickly when any dispute occurs. In reply to a question which I asked on 6 April about the Kwa Thema bus boycott, the hon. the Minister pointed out that the function of his department actually ceased once the application for fare increases was concluded. Frankly, I am not concerned whether it is the hon. the Minister’s responsibility or whether it is the interdepartmental committee’s responsibility. I believe that permanent machinery should exist so that action can be taken immediately when any major dispute occurs, wherever it may be.

I may say that sensitivity over bus fare increases is not confined to Black people. The department is not without blame when it comes to the handling of applications for fare increases in respect of buses serving the White community. The hon. the Minister is very well aware of the anger and the disgust of many Cape Town users over the department’s handling of the matter of fare increases by Cape Town City Tramways. Much of the public dissatisfaction had to do with the fact that bus users were unaware of the applications for the increases until they were a fait accompli. When I asked the hon. the Minister whether he was prepared to introduce legislation to amend the Motor Carrier Transportation Act in order to provide for the publication of applications for increases in fares prior to the hearing of such applications, he was really quite righteously indignant in his reply, that I should have presumed to ask the question in view of the fact that I was a member of the commission which is at present reviewing this. I still believe that it is in the public interest for the public to be informed beforehand, before fare increases are allowed. I think that the matter is urgent enough for an interim measure to put the matter right. I should like to ask the hon. the Minister to reconsider his reply and immediately take steps to ensure that every application is published. ï must say that I was very glad to hear the reply of the hon. the Minister in answer to my question on 19 March with regard to the investigation by an independent chartered accountant of the affairs of the Cape Town City Tramways as a result of the huge increase in profit shown by Tollgate Holdings Limited, which they attributed to their passenger division. Could the hon. the Minister inform the House as to how this investigation is progressing? I would also be interested to hear whether this independent chartered accountant would be entitled to listen to evidence from outside parties who may have an interest in the matter.

Proceeding from this matter, I should like to raise another minor point with the hon. the Minister. This concerns airport buildings. I believe that the bookshops in the airports at Johannesburg, Cape Town and Durban are inadequate and that the facilities for travellers there should be improved. The areas that are set aside are too small. Passengers making purchases are cramped and uncomfortable. Also, I would like to ask whether any supervision is exercised by the department over the duty-free shop at Jan Smuts Airport, because I believe that customers are being exploited there. I had occasion to visit the duty-free shop the other day, and was astounded to see certain South African wines offered for sale at highly inflated prices. Other goods were offered for sale at prices which did not appear to reflect the real value without duty. I can only assume that the mark-up is highly excessive. I should like to ask the hon. the Minister to give his attention to this matter because I do not believe that the lessees of this monopoly concession should be allowed to take advantage of the public by charging such excessive prices.

Mr. Chairman, it is rather strange that the hon. member for Orange Grove is again, at this stage raising the Kwa Thema bus boycott here. On Tuesday the 6th of April, he put a question to the hon. the Minister of Transport, i.e. whether his department had taken steps concerning the Kwa Thema bus boycott and if so, which steps, and if not, why not. The Minister furnished him with a complete answer to this, which answered all the questions he put today. But now the hon. member comes along and tries to make a political football out of this matter. I do think the increase in bus tariffs is so important; there are other agitators behind this, and I should like to know what role the Progressive Party played in this. The hon. member ought to know that any request for an increase in bus tariffs, first goes before the local road transport board. They then decide on the matter and if the applicant is not satisfied, or if the people affected are not satisfied, they appeal to the National Transport Commission. That body then gives a ruling, and if the people concerned are still not satisfied, it is possible to appeal to our courts. Now I may just inform the hon. member that in all these years not a single case which has gone to the Supreme Court as a result of tariff increases granted by the road transport boards or by the National Transport Commission, has been successful.

But I should like to come back on a subject raised by a few previous speakers, i.e. road safety. We have the greatest praise and appreciation for the National Road Safety Council for the work they do to promote road safety. But in spite of research information and educational guidance provided by this council, we have not yet seen the desired effect.

The hon. member for Maitland mentioned the recent congress of the World Health Organization in Vienna and said that they had come to the conclusion that of the three factors which he mentioned, the human factor was the major contributory factor in road accidents. But the hon. member failed to add that the organization’s message to the world had been: “Forget about safe cars and roads and start by training the road user.” Therefore I should also like to concentrate on the human factor. Sir, any young person of 18 who has passed the necessary tests, may have a driver’s licence issued to him or her, with no strings attached. This is in fact a potential murder weapon with which that young person endangers not only his own life, but the lives of others as well. Now I wonder whether it is not time for the hon. the Minister to consider having a condition attached to the drivers’ licences issued to those young people. An effective condition would be that that licence would be withdrawn with the first serious traffic offence committed before that person was 25 years old. I say 25 years, because statistics I received from Rondalia Insurance Company indicate that drivers between the ages of 18 and 25 are the most dangerous road users. Rondalia ascertained that 39,1% of the policyholders between the ages of 18 and 20 years were involved in accidents last year. Furthermore, 51% of the people in the age group 18 to 25 years were involved in accidents last year. Therefore I think that if we wish to identify the crux of the problem, we should divide the drivers into age categories. As against to the previous figures I mentioned, only 3,9% of the people in the age group 31 to 35 years were involved in accidents last year, and only 2,7% of the policyholders above the age of 61. These are rather interesting statistics. As people grow older, and, perhaps, display more responsibility, there is a tremendous drop in the accident rate. The older generation are often accused of causing the accidents and of being the people who should be subjected to re-examination.

Where is the solution to this enormous death toll on our roads, a figure which is reaching epidemic proportions, to be found? It has been proved repeatedly that nothing influences the trespasser so much as being punished for his misdeeds. Therefore, however, we may argue about it, I think there is only one solution and that is the strict implementation of the law. The numerical strength of our traffic police will of course have to be increased. Speed limits may be introduced and guidance may be provided, but I believe that whether we succeed or fail will depend upon the man in the uniform. It is attempting the impossible to solve this problem with the present establishment of traffic police. The hon. member for Tygervallei asked whether we could not centralize the traffic police. The hon. member for Welkom also raised this point. By doing so I think we shall be able to utilize our manpower far more effectively. Many of the larger towns have between 20 and 30 traffic constables, but those men are limited solely to their own area of jurisdiction. In the Cape, I gather, with the establishment as it is at present, there is approximately 900 km for each traffic officer to patrol, if leave is also taken into consideration. For the ordinary traffic officer this is attempting the impossible. Therefore, to my mind, our solution lies in increasing the numerical strength of our traffic police so that the man in the uniform will be clearly visible. It has been proved over and over again that only the presence or visibility of the traffic officer makes the driver drive more carefully.

As the hon. member for Tygerberg has also said: If traffic fines could all be paid into one central fund, and if that fund could be set aside to be used solely for the appointment of traffic officers and the prevention of death on our roads, we should make much more progress than we have up to now.

A second factor which should be taken into consideration, is the factor of driving under the influence of liquor. The person who gets behind a steering wheel in an intoxicated state, not only endangers his own life. He also endangers the lives of others. Is the time not ripe to impose a levy on alcoholic beverages? That levy may then be used to combat road accidents and to reduce the death toll on our roads. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, I am in full agreement with the hon. member who has just resumed his seat. Sir, the activities of the Department of Transport covers a very wide field. Today I should like to dwell on one of the divisions, i.e. civil aviation.

In the field of civil aviation a great deal of progress has been made in our country. We have had phenomenal growth and development in this regard. However, I should like to dwell on only one of the activities of the Division of Civil Aviation, i.e. the civil aviation subsidy scheme and the phenomenal results which have been achieved with this scheme.

The subsidy scheme is administered by the Civil Aviation Subsidy Committee. The committee consists of members of the Departments of Transport and Defence, members of the Aero Club of South Africa, the Commercial Aviation Association, the Aircraft Owners’ and Pilots’ Association. The scheme was introduced on 1 September 1954, and was established initially for a period of five years. As from 1 April 1961, however, the scheme has been continued for shorter periods, i.e. periods of three years. The present scheme of three years started on 1 April of this year with a budget, as we may see from the estimates, already amounting to the sizeable amount of R100 000. The scheme makes provision for the issuing of the first licence for the training of private pilots, for the licence for advanced training, for the commercial pilot’s licence, for awarding instructors and instruments ratings as well as for subsidies paid on the purchase of gliders and parachute equipment. Subsidies are awarded on a basis of merit after applications have been considered by the committee. I do not want to go into those requirements now, because I do not have the necessary time at my disposal to do so. I may point out, nevertheless, that an age qualification of 17 to 40 years is a prerequisite. South African citizenship is another prerequisite. For the sake of the hon. member for Houghton, I want to point out that also women may be considered, although I believe that men are given priority. [Interjections.]

Issues for the financial year 1975-’76 are as follows: First licences were issued to 166 people who want to obtain private pilot licences, licences for advanced training were granted to 163 people, commercial pilot licences were issued to 53 people, 13 people were given instructors ratings and 17 gained instrument ratings. For the financial year 1974-’75 the results were as follows: Out of 498 candidates 324 completed the course successfully. This was a somewhat disappointing number as one would have expected a higher pass rate. However, there were very sound reason for the lower pass rate. In order to raise the standard of flying, a condition was very definitely laid down that the pilots should first acquire the radio telephony licence. This was one of the factors which contributed to a lower pass rate. A second factor was that training fees were substantially raised and a third factor was that it was a year with a particularly high rainfall. A fourth factor was that there were problems with the availability of aviation fuel initially. At present this problem has largely been overcome with the result that this no longer constitutes a major problem.

The results which have been achieved up to now are truly phenomenal. From the time the scheme was established up to the end of 1974-’75 the sizeable amount of R752 745 was spent on subsidies. This enabled 2 467 candidates to qualify for the initial issue of a private pilot licence, 2 747 candidates completed the advanced training and 375 candidates obtained the commercial pilot licence. All this points to the fact that this subsidy scheme has become a very important scheme. Consequently I should like to express my appreciation this afternoon towards the department for this generous scheme which has been established and for the fact that the amount appropriated for the scheme for this year, has again been increased.

Civil aviation, like aviation in general, is increasing at a tremendous rate in our country. Consequently we are among the leading countries in this regard today. To furnish a few other brief statistics, I may just mention that the total number of registered aircraft in our country numbered as many as 2 599 in 1975, of which 1 789 were single-engined and 498 multi-engined. As a matter of interest I just want to point out that there were 133 gliders and 55 helicopters. In this way I could continue quoting other similar statistics to prove how important aviation has already become in our country.

In conclusion I want to touch on another matter, one which is near to my heart, and that is that safety in the air is priority number one, just as safety on the road is priority number one, as we heard here this afternoon. For this reason I believe that this aspect of aviation can never be stressed enough. One of the factors which determines the safety of the pilot, concerns overhead wires and cables which can be very dangerous to pilots. I wonder whether the time has not arrived that we, as somebody put it recently, bury cables rather than bury our pilots. If we cannot bury our cables, can we not at least mark them properly? I saw in Europe that many of these cables had been marked in a way which enabled one to see them very clearly, especially where there were overhead wires where one did not actually expect them. I believe this matter should be tackled with singleness of purpose. I should like to ask the hon. the Minister and the Department of Transport whether the time has not arrived for us to attend to this matter. As aviation grows, this problem will become more and more important. I want to ask that the necessary investigation be made in this regard. I am convinced of the fact that the department will receive valuable assistance in this from flying clubs all over the country.

A second safety aspect which is also of great importance to the pilots, is the availability of meteorological data. Our airways have no problems in this regard. Very thorough provision has been made for them. However, I believe it would be very good for the pilot who flies short distances only, and not on the normal air routes either, if we could achieve more effective co-ordination in the field of meteorological data so as to assist the private pilot in this way. I believe that in this regard we shall be able to obtain the co-operation of every enthusiast in this field. In every small town and village there will be people who will be prepared to provide us with the necessary information. Such information may then be processed at a central place to be made available to our pilots. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, first of all I would like to refer to the request by the hon. member for Orange Grove to the hon. the Minister, that an investigation be held into matters relating to the City Tramways. I suppose the hon. the Minister is fully aware of the fact that the hon. member for Green Point has been writing to him about this very same matter over the past three years. I am sure that now, with the added assistance of the hon. member for Orange Grove, the hon. the Minister will take some form of action.

My predecessor, Mr. Douglas Mitchell, told me once that, if one wanted the assistance of the hon. the Minister, or any reaction from him, one should invite him to one’s constituency. He told me a story about how, when he wanted the lower South Coast road to be turned into a freeway, he invited the hon. the Minister’s predecessor and another hon. Minister to visit the area. However, he chose a strategic time. He chose a Friday afternoon during a Christmas holiday season, and after some three hours of motoring the other hon. Minister—I think it was the hon. the Minister of Agriculture—said to the hon. the Minister of Transport: “Here, ou Ben, jy moet nou iets doen omtrent hierdie pad, man! ” Needless to say, we now have a freeway there. [Interjections.]

I wonder if I could invite the hon. the Minister of Transport to visit my constituency again and to use the South Coast road between Durban and Kokstad, through to Umtata, on a Friday evening, preferably at a month’s end or on the eve of a long weekend. I say this because I believe that must be one of the most dangerous roads in South Africa at specific times. I believe that this is no news to any hon. member living in the Border area or close to one of the Bantu homelands. The hazards on those roads are increasing daily. The more Black drivers we get, the more Blacks can afford to buy cars, and the more Black people use that road, the more dangerous it becomes. It has already become an acknowledged fact that no one, save an utter idiot, uses that road on a Friday if he can avoid it.

It is said—I do not want to corroborate it—that half the drivers on that road are incompetent and that half the vehicles are unroadworthy. However, at particular times, especially over long weekends, one can see more broken-down cars on that particular road than at any other time. The cars are usually overloaded. It is not uncommon to see a normal motor car carrying 20 people. It is also not uncommon to see a one ton light duty vehicle loaded with 30 or 40 people, with all their luggage.

Oh, come off it!

Oh, come off it! But the passengers are likely to come off it too! One often sees a car dragging along the road, its rear end just about clearing the ground, its headlights shining into heaven, quite useless to anybody, the exhaust system belching clouds of smoke and the vehicle only just crawling. Such vehicles are a hazard. First of all, one is quite unable to overtake them, because of the clouds of smoke. The driver himself is unable to see anything in his rear mirror, because of the way the car is overloaded, because of the angle of the car and because of the clouds of smoke behind it. There are frequent breakdowns. Those dilapidated cars stop just anywhere along the road to pick up or to put down passengers, or vehicles run short of fuel over weekends, when there is no fuel available. Vehicles break down anywhere. As is well known, the road through the Transkei is extremely narrow with no verges on which cars can park. The result is that broken down cars are parked in the middle of the road and major repairs are being carried out on the spot. It is not at all extraordinary to see someone remove the differential of a car, take out the gear-box or lift out the engine right there on the road. The job is tackled there and then, with all the passengers sitting around having a picnic. That is the road we have to use. The state of affairs has become such that most people driving from Natal to East London, Port Elizabeth or beyond, do so in a roundabout way. They rather take the road through Bloemfontein, because it has become too dangerous to use the road along the south coast. The road through the Transkei is even more dangerous, because of stray animals, especially during the night. Pedestrians who have nowhere else to walk, use the road, particularly during nights when it is raining. Drivers are blinded by the lights of oncoming traffic rendering them unable to see pedestrians walking on the road surface. It also prevents them from noticing cyclists or animals or even people working on their cars. The driver of an oncoming car might notice a broken-down car standing in the road. However, what he does not see, are the legs and feet sticking out from under the car. Those legs and feet belong to the owner of the broken-down car, who is at that moment lying on his back under his vehicle, trying to fix it. What the driver of the oncoming car also does not see, are the spare parts from the broken-down car piled in the middle of the road, or even the huge stones piled on the road to prevent the broken-down car from running over a precipice.

Mr. Chairman, hon. members may think I am exaggerating, but I shall quote from a speech by Chief George Matanzima. It is a speech quoted in the report on a symposium held by the National Road Safety Council in October last year. In his speech Chief George Matanzima first of all refers to road safety in the Transkei. He appeals to the National Road Safety Council for help in teaching road safety in the Transkei and then says—

He goes on to say—

However—

Further on he talks about the importance of car maintenance and says it is a major problem to keep a car roadworthy in the Transkei, so much so that—

He goes on to say that another problem the Transkei has is a lack of qualified engineers and technicians to keep roads and vehicles in the Transkei in a satisfactory condition. He appeals for help in planning the roads in the Transkei. He says there is—

This represents a major problem to us. We shall want to use the roads in the Transkei. We shall have to pass through the Transkei to get to the southern parts of South Africa. Will we in future have to use these particular roads which are not constructed in accordance with a safety standard? Chief Matanzima goes on to say—

He continues—

The last quotation I would like to make is where he asks—

I quoted all this to prove that the position in the Transkei is critical and urgent. I appeal to the hon. the Minister to consider methods of increasing road safety in the Transkei. Could the hon. the Minister perhaps tell us what is being done to formulate a standard code of safety, as far as drivers and the roadworthiness of vehicles are concerned, between us and the Bantu homelands? What agreement is being entered into to see that there is a common code of examination for people taking out their driver’s licences and also for seeing that vehicles are roadworthy? It is no good that we in the White areas have stringent driver’s and roadworthy tests for vehicles if the drivers in the Transkei are not competent and their vehicles not roadworthy. These Black drivers will not know how to drive in a White area. They are a bigger danger in our areas than in their own. One may expect them to react in a certain manner, but then they react completely differently. Unless some standard code can be established for testing and for awarding certificates and for the safety of vehicles, I do not see how we are going to get anywhere at all as far as the separate and independent homelands are concerned. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, in so far as the hon. member for South Coast is concerned about the condition of the roads which do not promote road safety, we on this side of the House would also like to see that road construction should be of such a nature that it will promote road safety. We appreciate the fact that several speakers have expressed concern on several occasions today for the high toll on our roads as well as for the measures we have in South Africa today with a view to road safety. Various problems were posed and solutions were suggested. But one of the basic problems of accidents was not touched upon. We in South Africa will have to realize that one of the most important ways in which we can reduce road accidents is to drive less. Over the past few years, as a result of circumstances beyond our control, as a result of the high fuel prices inter alia, it has become expensive to take to the road in a motor vehicle. However, when one considers the traffic on our roads today and the speed at which that traffic moves, one cannot but realize that the request to use fuel more judiciously in South Africa is falling upon deaf ears. When hon. members plead for road safety in this House, they should also feel themselves at liberty to ask the road user outside to drive more judiciously. It is interesting to see that when appeals are made for the conservation of fuel—conservation by driving less and at a reduced speed—tens and hundreds of our people do not take any notice of this. They still drive at a high speed, and this sometimes causes one to ask what the loyalty of these people towards South Africa is. When our people are asked to drive at a reduced speed and to use less fuel, there are so many of our people who cannot even be loyal as far as this minor request is concerned. One then wonders to what extent one can rely on the loyalty of our people when it comes to more important things. If we consider this lack of co-operation on the part of the public, there is one body which we can thank, namely the Department of Transport, especially the Government garage which has succeeded, over the past financial year, in driving 7,25 km fewer than in the previous year. If we look at the number of vehicles which are controlled by that department—at present approximately 14 000—we find that at present it is approximately the same as in 1972, in other words, the number has decreased. We want to tell the department that this achievement has been noted and appreciated by us.

I think there is one section of this department which often receives undeserved criticism and which seldom receives thanks for their useful work. I am now referring to the National Weather Bureau. It sometimes seems as if there are many people who see the Weather Bureau simply as a body which indicates the expected weather pattern for a weekend, and this is definitely not with a view to increased efficiency or productivity, but often only for a jaunt over hundreds of kilometres in order to lie in the sun for a day and a half and then rush back the following day to be in time for work.

Another sphere in which we shall have to guard against making a farce of it, is the new and unknown sphere of weather modification. Since weather modification can be quite spectacular when it is applied operationally as far as the size, colour and movement of clouds are concerned, many of our people have gained the impression that the Weather Bureau has a sort of magic wand which can change weather conditions at will. If some regions of the country wants sunshine and it rains, this department is accused of its research causing the untimely rain. I think that on various occasions in the past, the fact has been emphasized that at this stage research is being concentrated upon. However, recently, during the period in which we had superfluous rains, I read that a fairly responsible person, or a person who ought to be responsible, apparently said that the Weather Bureau at present has at its disposal the kind of knowledge to increase rain and that the time was ripe for them to be able to stop the rain as well. When one hears such statements, one realizes the real ignorance which exists in respect of this department, as well as the ignorance which exists in respect of the aim and service of this department.

Therefore, we want to express our appreciation for the fact that this department is at present involved in doing research in a responsible manner and collecting information with the purpose of interpreting and applying that data later on for the promotion of orderly weather modification in South Africa. In the research programme, which is incidentally, being undertaken in my constituency, there has been nothing much over the past year which can be described as spectacular progress. However, we are grateful for the installation of certain apparatus there which makes it possible for the ground staff to be able to determine the true position of the aircraft taking part in the operational programme. We are grateful that these people are collecting information in a scientific manner and then supplementing it and comparing it with that of other countries. It is not unlikely that a breakthrough will be made at some time or other in respect of orderly weather modification. However, I think that it is unlikely that that breakthrough will be made in South Africa, because there are other countries which have more money to spend on this research and more staff to devote to research in this sphere. However, we must be careful that our research and our development do not take place too slowly so that when that actual breakthrough is made, we will be unable to apply it in South Africa too. We also want to address a warning from this House that opportunistic weather modification may be grossly irresponsible. It comes to one’s attention from time to time that there are certain bodies who often try and bring about large-scale weather modification and prevention of hail on a commercial basis as a sphere which can serve a major purpose in South Africa. Sir, we want to ask in all modesty that the department should closely bear in mind the scientific nature of this project and that the statistics of other countries should be verified with those we already possess in South Africa. Therefore we also want to ask that South Africa should co-operate in one of the major ideals in meteorology, i.e. to try and receive a continuous and exact picture of the weather conditions throughout the world as an uninterrupted check and a point of departure for weather forecasts and other uses, for example climatology. In this co-operation we shall have to utilize all knowledge we are able to collect from weather satellites, but we shall also have to guard against this information piling up or simply being used selectively, as a result of a shortage of experts and researchers.

Everything indicates that with the knowledge and the skill we possess in South Africa, there will be an improvement in the sphere of storm warnings. This is something which is already taking place in other countries, and is found to an increasing extent in South Africa, also with respect to local thunderstorms and rainfall. It is hoped that reliable forecasts for periods of from 5 to 7 days will be possible in the near future. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, I have no fault to find with the arguments advanced here by the hon. member for Bethlehem with regard to a very scientific subject, namely meteorology. Weather forecasting today is very much better than it was years ago, mainly as a result of the scientific progress in the world and the use of the satellite system for this purpose. Weather forecasting for the whole of South Africa is not such an easy matter as it is here in the Peninsula. When the north-west wind is blowing and Lion’s Head is covered, we know that it is going to rain in Cape Town. When one visits the meteorological station at Hart-beeshoek and sees the blanket of clouds south of the Sahara, one can very clearly see, for the next 24 hours or for an even longer period, what the weather conditions are going to be in the immediate future. But so much for that.

I should like to deal with the use of our roads by motorists. We do know that road transport plays a very important role in South Africa. If one thinks of the million or more motor vehicles which there are, all of which are driven by licensed motorists, and if one thinks of the 200 different models which are in use on the roads of South Africa, and if one thinks of the extensive system of tarred roads, then one realizes that one is faced with a situation in which the motor vehicle plays a very important role, in which the driver plays a very important role as do our roads. Before coming to the human factor, I first want to dwell on the motor vehicle in our system of transport in South Africa and, indeed, in the whole world. It is with great pleasure that I see the hon. the Leader of the House, the hon. the Minister of Defence, being present here this afternoon after his absence. Were it not for the fact that he was travelling in a very safe vehicle when the accident occurred, we would perhaps not have had the privilege of welcoming him back here this afternoon. The safety of the vehicle plays a very important role and I should like to tell the hon. the Minister, all other Ministers as well as all road users in South Africa that when one ventures on to the road, one should make use of the best vehicle available, as the hon. the Minister of Defence did. There has been talk of Mercedeses and Buicks, but I still think the safest vehicle is the best. But I should like to come to the human factor.

I do not have any statistics available, but I assume that there are well over a million motor vehicles in South Africa, vehicles which are driven by all sorts of people—old, young and middle-aged, by women and men, Black, White and Brown. For me the issue is the licensing of the drivers of these extremely sophisticated and dangerous vehicles. When we look at the position of the pilots of aircraft in this connection, one finds that initially the pilots of aircraft are subjected to very strict tests in respect of health, skill and ability, and in addition they have to undergo very thorough training before being licensed, in the first place, not to pilot an aircraft, but to transport passengers. But when it comes to motor vehicles, one finds that the father of, say, four children, because he is able to comply with the basic requirements, such as reading road signs, applying brakes, accelerating and changing gears, is given a licence to drive a car, but at the same time he is also the transporter of passengers—his own family. He takes to the road in this way, and if he is not a very proficient, a very careful and a very skilled driver, he is endangering not only himself and his own family, but also the families of other people. If we consider our military action in Angola, in which a small number of people died in the interests of South Africa, but to which a great deal of publicity was given, and if one thinks of the thousands of lives which are lost annually on our roads, we simply accept this as a matter of course; it does not touch our hearts and makes virtually no impression on us. Nevertheless thousands of lives are being sacrificed here, while it is so easy to prevent it from happening. I do not want to criticize our system of roads. There is, in any event, no time for me to do so now. In fact, I think our roads in South Africa are generally of a very high standard. When one has regard to the distances involved, our roads are certainly of the best in the world.

I want to concentrate on the driver of South Africa. No restrictions are imposed on the motorist who wants to drive, for instance, from Cape Town to Johannesburg. He may cover the distance in 19 or 20 hours without his being required to stop anywhere to regain his physical energy. It does not matter whether or not he eats or sleeps en route. No restrictions are imposed on him; how he makes the journey is left entirely to the discretion of the motorist himself. Drivers of vehicles employed by transport companies, however, are trained and are paid to drive the vehicles. If such a driver travels from Cape Town to Johannesburg, he has a co-driver. He may not be behind the steering wheel of that vehicle for more than four hours at a stretch. After four hours the co-driver must take over. On the private driver in South Africa, however, there are no restrictions. Therefore I am of the opinion that we should give much more attention to the private driver.

There are always three factors which must be taken into consideration. These are the road, the vehicle and the person. It is only the person, that is the driver, who can judge how fast or slow he should drive if, for example, it is raining or getting dark. The vehicle cannot determine that it should be going slower if, for instance, the road is bad. The road itself has no control over how fast or slow the vehicle is moving. Therefore the human factor is of so much importance when it comes to road-use and the prevention of road accidents. For this reason I feel that we in South Africa, with our long distances, should give much greater attention to the driver himself. Therefore we should begin in our schools, when the future drivers are approximately 17 or 18 years of age. Before drivers obtain their licences, we must make them fully road conscious. I myself obtained my driver’s licence in a very small town, Cradock. This was many years ago. When I obtained my driver’s licence I had no idea of what it was to drive a car for instance, in Johannesburg. The prospective driver’s knowledge should extend beyond conditions in a small town. He should also know what it means to drive a car at a speed of, say, 130 km/h on a freeway—I am now thinking of the times before the speed restrictions were imposed. For instance, what does one do if one is travelling at a speed of 90 km/h and one gets a puncture? What should the reaction of the driver be? I am afraid that 99% of our younger drivers—not our older drivers who drove on rough roads in the old days and often got punctures—do not know what it is to get a puncture at a speed of 90 km/h. They do not know what they should do to control the vehicle under such circumstances. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, I should like to reply to the discussion that has taken place so far. Many constructive ideas have been raised, particularly on road safety. The hon. member who has just resumed his seat discussed this subject and so did the hon. member for Maitland, who broached it. After the hon. member for Maitland, the hon. members for Welkom and Boksburg also discussed it. Therefore it is clear that road safety is a matter of great importance to all of us.

The carnage on our roads in recent times and the newspaper reports over the Easter weekend alerted everyone in South Africa to the fact that matters are not as they should be in South Africa as far as road safety is concerned. I do not want to detract in any way from the importance of the subject, or the extent of road accidents, but there are nevertheless certain aspects I should like to point out. The most important is that although we gained the impression over the last Easter weekend that the death toll as well as the number of road accidents was high, these were not really any higher than in the past. Nor were they any higher than had been expected on the basis of projected figures. The projections were made by the National Road Safety Council.

I think everyone will agree that the number of road accidents bears a close relationship to the number of vehicles in use on the roads. The National Road Safety Council has made projections for a number of years into the future to calculate the number of accidents which could be expected as a result of the growth in our traffic. It has been found in practice that the projected figures were in fact very nearly equal to the actual number of accidents. I should like to quote a few examples in this regard. For 1972 it was estimated in advance that 218 400 accidents would occur, and in point of fact there were 218 436. This shows that the estimated figure was very close to the actual figure. It was estimated that there would be 232 000 accidents in 1973, and in actual fact there were 221 000. I do not want to elaborate at too great a length on the figures, but if one considers the death toll, one finds that it was estimated that 8 400 people would die in 1973, while in actual fact 8 579 people died. In 1974 it was expected that 8 700 people would die, but the death rate in actual fact amounted to only 6 344. The reason for such a drop in both the number of road accidents as well as the death toll must be attributed to the speed restrictions which came into effect at the end of 1973. If one compares the actual figures in 1975 with the projected figures, one finds that the downward trend continued into 1975 as well, but that in reality there was a slight increase in the number of accidents, as everyone is aware. In 1974 there was in fact a decrease of 18% in the number of accidents, but in 1975 they have already increased to such an extent that the decrease which we experienced as a result of the lower speeds at which motorists travel amounted to only 5%.

The hon. member for Welkom pointed out that an average of 22 people were killed on our roads every day. If one takes the four days over the Easter weekend, it means that it could of course have been expected that 88 people would die. But we must not forget that the roads are far busier over the Easter weekend, and it is therefore understandable that there will be a higher accident rate. Last year it was said immediately after the Easter weekend that the death rate over the weekend had amounted to 59, but a year later, when the surveys were completed and the number of people who died subsequently, but as a result of injuries sustained over the Easter weekend, were also included, it was found that the death toll had in reality amounted to approximately 120. Consequently this means that over the Easter weekend an average of 30 people per day were killed as against an average of 22 per day over the entire year. At the end of the Easter weekend this year the death toll amounted to 73. If one multiplies this by two now, as was the case last year, one arrives at a figure of approximately 140, which was the death toll over the last Easter weekend. I am mentioning these figures merely to indicate that although we were shocked by the accident rate for the last Easter weekend, it was not entirely disproportionate to the expected pattern.

Another very important aspect of the number of accidents which occurred, is that 47% of the people killed on our roads, are pedestrians. I do not think that we always take this into consideration. Of that number 40% were non-White pedestrians. That fact gives rise to the need for one to try to determine what the pertinent reasons for it are. One wonders whether it is as a result of inebriation, of bad judgment, of poor discipline at cross-roads, etc.

From the nature of the case it is clear that this comprises the greatest percentage of our accident rate, and that special attention should therefore be given to the matter. Consequently the National Road Safety Council is at present devoting special attention to this aspect of the matter and is engaged in a publicity campaign, etc., to try to prevent so many pedestrians, and particularly non-White pedestrians, from being killed on our roads. I do not want to elaborate on this matter much further, except to say that all of us are of course very concerned about the matter of accidents which occur on our roads. I, personally, appreciate the proposals which were made here this afternoon in an attempt to counteract this slaughter on our roads.

I should now like to deal a little more specifically with the points raised by the hon. members. The hon. member for Maitland said that when he drives on the right-hand side of the road at the maximum permissible speed, people behind flash their lights at him because they want him to get out of the way. To begin with, I think that one should drive on the left-hand side of the road at all times. Let me elaborate on this matter a little. I am concerned about the fact that our traffic on our one-directional roads is not flowing as it should. I think that hon. members will agree with me on this score. There is always a hold-up somewhere. Even if one drives at the maximum speed, or if one wishes to drive faster for a particular reason, one finds that the traffic simply does not want to flow. My humble opinion is that the reason for this should be sought in the fact that we allow people to overtake one another either on the left or the right-hand side. I admit and confess that I am co-responsible for that. When I was still in the Provincial Council there was a Select Committee on traffic matters of which the late Mr. Henshilwood was the chairman. On that committee we decided that one could overtake a person on the left-hand side provided one made certain that one could do so safely. I personally believe that this is something which should be reconsidered, particularly on one-directional roads with several traffic lanes. One will never succeed in causing the slower traffic to move to the left-hand side of the road as long as other people have the right to overtake on the left. The motorist simply says: “Surely you can overtake on the left-hand side; why should I move over to the left-hand side so that you can overtake on the right?” Traffic on our one-directional roads with several traffic lanes will only flow smoothly if the slower traffic moves over to the left-hand side at all times so that the faster traffic is able to overtake on the right-hand side. This is a fact, and how is one to accomplish this now? It is not so easy to accomplish this. One can only accomplish it by making it compulsory. People can only be compelled to do this if, for example, a prohibition is imposed on overtaking on the left. Then it makes no difference whether a person is driving at slow or high speeds. When the opportunity presents itself, motorists must move to the left so that the right-hand lane can be open for motorists who want to overtake.

How can one overtake if two motor cars are driving next to one another and at the same speed.

That also happens. Then one will simply have to flash one’s lights to indicate that one wants to overtake. The hon. member referred to uniform qualifications for drivers. This is a matter which has a great deal of merit. I have been informed by the National Road Safety Council that, with the latest provision of information an attempt is being made to bring about uniformity in respect of learner drivers’ licences, as well as in regard to the issuing of new drivers’ licences. As far as forged drivers’ licences are concerned—the hon. member referred to that as well—we shall co-operate with the Department of Justice, as the hon. member himself also suggested. I am also of the opinion that the proposed central register of drivers’ licence holders will contribute a great deal to solving this problem, in so far as it is in fact a problem.

The hon. member for Welkom once again discussed road safety. He put certain questions to me. In the first place he wanted to know whether the roads are being built in the correct manner. Oh well, this is not something I can prove with figures. It is not as easy as saying twice two is four. Still, I believe that the local authorities the provincial administrations and the National Transport Commission, who are responsible for our national throughways, always take care to build the roads in such a way that it constitutes the greatest measure of safety. The hon. member also expressed his concern regarding the question of whether motor vehicles which are manufactured in South Africa comply with all the prescribed safety requirements. This is also an open question. I believe that our motor vehicles in general are good. Our great problem, however, is not that new motor vehicles do not comply with requirements, but that all motor vehicles eventually become unroadworthy and that many of them are not always repaired and overhauled adequately. In my opinion traffic officers are doing a very good job of work by carrying out tests from time to time on the motor vehicles on our roads.

The hon. member also referred to safety-belts. We could, of course, conduct a very long debate on safety-belts here. A recommendation was indeed made by the National Road Safety Council to the effect that the use of safety-belts should be made compulsory. This is a matter to which we should definitely give very serious consideration. The moment it is made compulsory for safety-belts to be used at all times, it means that, if I were to get into my car here and drive down to the Jan van Riebeeck Statue, for example, I would have to wear a safety-belt. Therefore, if I am driving down Adderley Street and I have not buckled on my safety-belt, a traffic officer or policeman might stop me and fine me for having failed to do so. It is by its nature a difficult problem. The question remains to what extent and under what circumstances it should be made compulsory. I admit candidly that safety-belts serve a very good purpose. Particularly for journeys over long distances it is in my opinion very desirable to wear a safety-belt. I am convinced that if my colleague, the hon. the Minister of Defence, had been wearing a safety-belt at the time of his recent accident—which was not the case—his injuries would probably have been far fighter. The fact of the matter is, however, that it will be a very difficult matter to apply such a requirement. One could cause major problems, particularly since one is once again dealing with the human factor, with a person who has to apply it and who could be injudicious in his methods when he fines people. The hon. member referred to the frame of mind of drivers. I am in complete agreement with the hon. member. If one goes to England and stands on the sidewalks of London one gains the impression that there is no discipline, that there are very few traffic rules. Yet the traffic is flowing. Then again, when one finds oneself in Germany, one sees that no one waits for anyone else—unless required to do so by law. But there, too, the traffic flows. In the two countries I have held up as examples, one has circumstances which are completely dissimilar, but the results one finds there are nevertheless very much the same.

The ideal position would of course be if one could have a good and sound combination of both, i.e. the necessary measures and the application thereof, and at the same time the right frame of mind of the one driver towards another as we would like to have it. The hon. member also referred to the fact that the Police also have to deal with traffic matters. I should prefer not to discuss that matter, for it is a very contentious one.

The hon. member for Simonstown raised a variety of matters. The hon. member asked me whether we recognize certificated persons as members of the crews of South African ships. I want to inform the hon. member that that qualification is in fact recognized. There is a great shortage of certificated persons in the world. Therefore it is not only the case in our country, but throughout the world. The position in regard to certificated persons for South African vessels is still unsatisfactory, and exemptions to sail without certificated persons still have to be granted, particularly to the crews of fishing boats. During the 1975-’76 financial year there were 2 023 such cases and in 1974-’75, 1 792. Extreme concessions are, according to the circumstances, granted only in essential cases, but to encourage fishermen to acquire certificates of competency, it has been decided to take stricter action and to grant concessions for shorter periods and, if possible, not to repeat them.

The hon. member also discussed the control over small ships, small boats and other vessels. He also referred to that on a previous occasion, during the discussion of legislation. In that regard I should like to quote to him a memorandum which was submitted to me. In my opinion this is the quickest way in which I can dispose of the matter. The following report was made to me in this regard—

The “you” referred to here is the Minister. I do not think that I can take the matter any further for the hon. member than that. I should like to give him the assurance that we are dealing with this matter to the best of our ability. The hon. member also requested that there should be one organization for the ocean, the large harbours and the small harbours. However, this is a very complicated subject and I think we shall need a far more comprehensive discussion of it than the one we are having today. The hon. member also requested that our sea limits should be extended. I want to tell him that we are not a member of the Inter-governmental Nautical Consulting Organization. We are trying to get our foot in at the door of this organization, but we have not yet succeeded. However, we shall continue our efforts to obtain membership. Without membership of that organization it will serve no purpose for us to take further action in that regard.

The hon. member, as well as others, referred to the Mitchell’s Plain bus service. I do not think that any of us in this committee would deny the proficiency and the competency of the Cape Town bus company, under the supervision of Tollgate Holdings, to operate bus services, for I really think that it is, if not the best, then one of the best bus services in South Africa. It is run by a private concern, whereas we do not have private entrepreneurs doing this in the other cities of South Africa. In the other cities, the bus services have to be rendered by municipalities, at losses running into hundreds of thousands of rands.

Millions!

Yes, millions. This applies in particular to cities such as Johannesburg and Durban. For this reason I believe that we are all agreed that these companies are rendering very efficient services, with proper regard for all economic rules. Objections are being made to the profits they are making. The hon. member for Orange Grove was one of the hon. members who objected to this, but I shall come back to him at a later stage. Surely it is not a bad thing to make a profit. How can one expect a company to do business—particularly if it involves such a complicated organization as a bus company—without making a profit? Naturally they ought to make a profit. When the hon. member considers those profits, he must relate them to the capital investment. Millions of rands have been invested in those companies, and money has to be earned on those millions of rands, irrespective of whether it is by way of loan funds or their own capital. In this way a company has been established in this case, 50% of the shares of which belong to Tollgate Holdings, and the other 50% to non-Whites. This company has been granted the concession to provide services there. Personally I think this is a step in the right direction. Naturally it was not I who granted that concession, but the hon. member is quite entitled to raise the matter and to express his opinion to the effect that this should not have been done. Personally I think, however, that one has here the skill, proficiency and experience of a company that has been operating this kind of business for years. Added to this we also have the involvement of the Coloured community. If a well-organized bus service should be established at a later stage, and the organized Coloured community then wants to make a take-over, I think it would be a good thing. For a start it is in my opinion just as satisfactory that the bus services are at present being run on a 50-50 basis between the Coloureds and the bus company.

The hon. member for Tygervallei discussed traffic officers, speed traps and the revenue earned by local authorities by means of traffic officers. I must now admit that I was the victim of such a speed trap. It could very easily be said now that my attitude to this matter is not an entirely objective one. A moment ago, when the hon. member for Bethlehem was talking about the patriotism which ought to be manifested in respect of fuel saving, some of my good friends opposite glanced in my direction with a little smile on their faces. Apparently they were thinking to themselves: “What did you do, Mr. Muller?” I now want to explain to them that I am a good patriot and that I would never exceed the speed limit as far as fuel saving is concerned. In fact, I did not exceed it, for I was only travelling at 80 km/h. The worst thing of all was that it was on a national road.

Disgraceful!

It is not a disgrace. The hon. member for Houghton really could not restrain herself from getting in a word, but I am pleased that she did not make a speech this afternoon. Be that as it may, I did not exceed the speed limit imposed for fuel saving. I was only travelling at 80 km/h. But, Sir, I have to agree with the hon. member for Tygervallei that this speed trapping is really being done injudiciously. It is being done so injudiciously, and there appears to be something so strange about the revenue earned in this way, that it is just not acceptable to the public. A policeman ought to be seen as the friend of the public, and he is indeed in most cases, I would say, seen to be the friend of the public, although errors of judgment are made as a result of which he is sometimes not seen in that light. In the same way the ideal position is that the traffic officer should also be seen as a friend of the public. But what is he today? There is no more hated person that the traffic officer.

Yes, they are always hiding away!

This is the unfortunate situation, when they proceed to set speed traps as well. An hon. member referred today to what happened on the road between the zoo and the junction of Newlands Avenue and Rhodes Avenue, this side of Kirstenbosch. That is where they usually lie in wait for people. However, they do not do this in the mornings when people are on their way to office, for then one is forced to drive at a snail’s pace. The Cape Town municipality did not make the road wide enough to be able to travel at speed. One is then forced to drive at a snail’s pace. On a Saturday morning, however, when the traffic is able to get moving, they are waiting there to trap the people who are travelling a little faster than 60 km/h. When the traffic is able to get moving, they are in fact obstructing the flow of traffic. The case was also mentioned of the freeway between the airport and Cape Town. When one passes the Mowbray golf course, one suddenly finds oneself on a road which, for all practical purposes, is the same as the one on which one has been travelling from the airport. Suddenly the speed limit is 60 km/h and then they are waiting just a little further on where the bushes grow at the side of the road. That is where they trap motorists. I can testify to this, because one morning my driver had to come in to fetch me. He was delayed there for almost quarter of an hour because the traffic police were trapping motorists there. Is this the way in which traffic officers should act to regulate the traffic? That is why I say that their main object ought to be to regulate the traffic. In this regard, therefore, I want to agree with the hon. member.

There is one way in which this matter will be remedied, and that is that these funds should go into a different repository to the one they are going into at present. I want to admit candidly today that I wanted to insert such a provision in the legislation on urban transportation. In fact, I have already inserted it there. There was a provision that all traffic fines in metropolitan areas should go into the metropolitan fund, but I then established that a committee had been appointed by my colleague, the Minister of Finance to go into the entire matter of the financing of local authorities. Because this had, wrongly, become such an important factor in the financing of local authorities, I then decided to omit it from this legislation for the time being.

That was a mistake.

But I want proper consideration to be given to this matter, and that is why I have referred it to the committee to give attention to and consider the possibility—I think this is the right thing to do—of paying all traffic fines into the metropolitan fund. The metropolitan area will then benefit from those fines in any event, while the control over and the supervision of the funds will no longer be vested in the local authority, but in the National Transport Commission.

The hon. member for Orange Grove referred to bus boycotts and he made a few remarks about how non-White transportation should not have to pay for the ideologies of the National Party. I just want to point out to him that very large sums are being paid by way of subsidy, not only to the companies, but to the consumers, to the people who need the transportation. During the past year we have made provision for R10 million, and subsequently requested an additional R5 million in the Additional Estimates. This year we are making provision for R16 million for those subsidies, and I fear it is not enough. The matter has assumed such proportions that my colleague, the hon. the Minister of Finance, has now appointed a committee under the chairmanship of Mr. Pretorius to reconsider the entire question of subsidization. In this period of inflation we simply cannot keep on paying more and more subsidies all the time. Apparently the hon. member is not taking into consideration that the salaries of the people using this transport are also being augmented from time to time. When we augment their salaries, we are engaged in the process of narrowing the gap between the salary scales of the Whites and the non-Whites. Yet it seems to me that he is proceeding on the assumption that the fares may simply never be allowed to go up, in spite of the fact that we are faced with inflation and all its various facets as far as transportation matters are concerned. Be that as it may, the hon. member raised quite a number of matters with regard to City Tramways here in the Cape as well. In that regard I told him on a certain occasion that I was instituting an investigation. He has now asked me what progress has been made with this investigation, and in reply I want to tell him that I approved the terms of reference this morning only. The terms of reference were finalized this morning, and this week, or next week, we shall proceed to appoint the auditors’ firm to do the necessary investigation which I undertook to do with reference to the question he asked earlier.

The hon. member also referred to the duty free shops at Jan Smuts Airport, and said that exorbitant prices were being charged there. My information is that the prices which were to have been charged at the bottlestore to which he referred, were submitted to the department. I do not know whether there had been any deviation from any of those prices, but we shall give the necessary attention to this matter and establish whether or not that was the case.

The hon. member for Boksburg also referred to a central organization—I think we must agree with him here—for the control of traffic matters, for with the traffic officers of all the various local authorities it is a fact that there has to be a measure of duplication, as the hon. member did in fact indicate.

The hon. member for Kempton Park referred to civil aviation, and he was concerned about the fact that it is not very easy for the smaller aircraft that are not flying along the determined routes to obtain information from the meteorological offices. I can only say that the meteorological information is available at all the large airports, and anyone in the private sector who would like to obtain information concerning the weather predictions, is at liberty at all times to make use of the telephone to obtain such information.

The hon. member also referred to overhead cables. I am in complete agreement with him. Still, I think we may rest assured that the universal tendency is rather to lay cables underground than to have overhead cables, for not only are they a hazard to air traffic, they are also extremely unsightly.

The hon. member for South Coast referred to the roads in the Transkei and along the South Coast. The hon. member is of course aware—but he made no mention of it—of the excellent road which is being built along the South Coast. I had thought the hon. member would at least have said thank you for that road, a beautiful double highway.

I said thank you for it last year already.

Then I accept that. It is a double highway which is under construction along the South Coast of Natal in the direction of Port Edward. I have a map in front of me here. The National Transport Commission is of course responsible for the building of national through ways. The N2 is consequently the national throughway which is being built from Cape Town to Durban. According to my map a road has already been completed up to a point south of Ixopo. This is a national road. However, there is a section in between in regard to which there is as yet no clarity. I want to quote the following in regard to those roads—

I do not want to take up any more of the Committee’s time. I just want to say that the section to Port Edward, to which I referred, has not been planned at all yet. Up to now there has still been uncertainty concerning the planning of that section, but the planning will still be tackled in future.

The hon. member raised another matter here in regard to the uniformity of roadworthy tests for motor vehicles in the Transkei and in the Republic. This is one of the many matters which have to be ironed out in view of the approaching independence of the Transkei. Details have already been worked out and made available, but have not yet been finalized. However, the necessary attention will be given to this matter. I am in complete agreement with the hon. member that this is a very important matter.

Apart from the reference he made to loyalty in respect of fuel saving, the hon. member for Bethlehem also referred to the Weather Bureau. However, I do not want to elaborate much on this. I know it is a matter that is close to his heart because Bethlehem is where he has established himself. I think he said there was quite a lack of progress in fact. I just want to point out that there is a great shortage of trained people. In recent times, as the result of the fight against inflation, funds have not all been that readily available either. But the hon. member will see that provision is being made in the Estimates for an amount of R25 000 for the purchase of a slow-moving glider which we intend purchasing to farther this aspect.

The hon. member for Germiston concluded the debate by referring once again to road safety, and all the matters that go with it. In particular he emphasized the issuing of licences and the competence of the licence holders. Here, too, there is a deficiency in the sense that a person who qualifies for a driver’s licence today may no longer qualify in 30 to 40 year’s time. Just as we do not yet have a system in South Africa for certifying vehicles to be roadworthy from year to year, so we do not have a system whereby licence holders may be tested from time to time to see whether they are still competent to drive a motor vehicle either. We shall have to give attention to these difficult aspects—one could almost call them this—in future in order to ensure a greater measure of safety on our roads.

I should like to express my appreciation to the hon. members for the constructive ideas they raised.

Mr. Speaker, I move—

Mr. Speaker, we in the Official Opposition will support this Bill at Third Reading. I believe that at the Third Reading it is right and proper to discuss the effect in terms of the object of the Bill and in terms of amendments which may have been accepted during the Committee Stage. Although we on this side of the House put forward a number of amendments during the Committee Stage, none of them was accepted and the only amendment which was accepted was a relatively minor one moved by the hon. the Minister himself. The object of the Bill is to establish a medical university to serve the national units as defined in the Promotion of Bantu Self-government Act, No. 46 of 1959. The use of the term “Southern Africa” in the title of the Bill suggests a broader concept than the Bill itself implies. I am aware that the scope of the Bill is limited in terms of clause 19 because the university council will be given certain powers but no complete autonomy. The council will only have a general permissive power to admit persons who do not belong to the national units provided for in the Promotion of Bantu Self-government Act. As such persons will only be admitted at the whim of the Minister, I believe that in the initial stages of this university it amounts already to a lack of confidence in the principle of a university being autonomous. The hon. the Minister has already admitted that there have been 25 admissions into the Bantu ethnic universities of students from outside the normal homelands of the Republic of South Africa.

During the various stages of this Bill the hon. the Minister stressed the need for Bantu medical practitioners, dentists and veterinarians and in the figures which he listed, he also revealed the stupendous failure of the NP Government in respect of the training of Black dentists and veterinarians over the last 25 years. One should also bear in mind that 15 years have elapsed since the Bantu homelands concept was expounded by the NP Government indicating that the homelands would become independent in all respects. I question whether there is any other Black African State in a position such that none of its indigenous people is qualified at this moment in time to treat the population from a dental or veterinary point of view. I question where there is another independent country in Africa in this invidious position. I believe that the Government should have acted in this respect many years ago. In terms of its own Holloway Commission of 1953, if one studies the recommendations, the Government supported the principle of using existing services until separate services could be provided. Had the existing services been used or expanded, we would not have been in the position in which we find ourselves today.

As late as last year in reply to a question the hon. the Minister of National Education indicated to me that he had no intention of extending the medical and dental training facilities. He was dealing with the training facilities of all races under his portfolio. At that stage he knew full well that the present and projected output could not meet the demand and he also knew that he was not in a position even to project with any degree of accuracy the output of Bantu general practitioners and dentists because in reply to the question he said there was no trend on which he could base a projection. It is therefore disappointing that, while this new institution will become operational only in 1983, the hon. the Minister says he intends to phase out Bantu trainees from the University of Natal.

As far as the medical school of the University of Natal is concerned, the hon. the Minister has indicated that it is not his intention suddenly to close the medical school to Bantu students. He said it would be systematically superseded by an institution which will train more students. The idea of training more Bantu medical students is acceptable to this side of the House. However, every factor suggests that the training of Bantu medical students should continue at the University of Natal to supplement the supply that will flow from the university at Ga-Rankuwa from 1983. The hon. the Minister indicated that more than half the Bantu medical practitioners who are operating—the hon. the Minister mentioned a figure of approximately 400—qualified either at Wits, UCT or at the University of Natal. The small balance may have qualified overseas. As the hon. the Minister has told us, this matter has been under consideration by the Cabinet since 1966. Yet it would appear that there has been no adequate consultation with the University of Natal in the interim, because I am advised on good authority that only on 9 December 1975 the decision was conveyed to the university that they were not to enrol more Bantu students for 1976 and that this was to be accompanied by the gradual phasing out of Bantu students at the university over the succeeding years.

The hon. the Minister admits that there is a serious shortage of Bantu medical practitioners. He is on record in Hansard as having said that the number of Bantu medical practitioners was “completely inadequate”. The hon. the Minister of Education admits, as I have said, that there is no projection possible. During the Second Reading debate on this Bill the hon. the Minister of Bantu Education quoted figures which, I believe, with respect, were unrelated to the full circumstances of the situation. I believe that the figures quoted by the hon. the Minister were detrimental to South Africa’s image overseas. These figures were not in accordance with the figures forthcoming from other informed sources. Let me quote some. The hon. the Minister is on record in Hansard as having indicated on 2 April that in the case of the Bantu the ratio of medical practitioners to patients was approximately one in 45 000 and for Whites one in 400. This is an oversimplification of the whole situation. Let me quote from somebody who, I believe, knew at the time what the position in South Africa was. I quote ex-Administrator and ex-Cabinet Minister Gerdner who is on record as having said in October 1966 that “possibly half the combined working time of the White medical practitioners was spent in attending to non-White patients”. This is a significant fact which one cannot disregard. Let me quote, further, from Tegniek of May 1970, which is later still. In it there appeared a survey on “die onafhanklike State van Afrika”. The survey lists the “inwoners per dokter”. I take “inwoners” to be the inhabitants. The figure given for S.A. is one doctor per 1 487 inhabitants which is, incidentally, the most favourable ratio in the whole of the continent of Africa. However, if we take as our basis the Minister’s figures which are now recorded in Hansard as being the figures in his opinion, we would find that with one doctor per 45 000 Bantu people, we would be bracketed with Burundi, Ethopia, Malawi, Niger and Chad. Yet Tegniek indicated that we had the best ratio in Africa. Let me refer, thirdly, to the “Survey on Training and Employment of Medical, Dental and Auxiliary Medical Personnel” of 1960, which is a survey that was instituted by this Government. Let me refer the hon. the Minister to Table 33 which is headed “Population ratios per medical practitioner in densely populated cities of South Africa (according to census districts)”. The highest, or worst, ratio of medical practitioners to the non-White population to be found in that table was the ratio in Kimberley which stood at one medical practitioner to 1 250 non-Whites.

The next table is No. 34. This is a survey of the 10 rural centres with a minimum of medical cover. There one finds the most unfavourable ratio i.e. one to 59 000, with the most favourable ratio of one to 5 266 in areas with a minimum medical cover. The average for these 10 areas amounts to a ratio of one to approximately 21 000. I accept that the statistics published in the report of 1960 refer to the year 1958, but if the position has deteriorated during the past 18 years, that is merely a further indictment of Nationalist Government inefficiency and neglect in this respect.

I now want to deal with the question of the cost comparisons in relation to projected results, because despite the opinion of the hon. the Minister of National Education, this hon. the Minister, in reply to a question by me, did give a projection. The medical school of the University of Natal was established 25 years ago. The cost of establishment amounted to R772 400 while the cost of administration, since its inception 25 years ago, has amounted to R8,3 million. During these 25 years approximately 600 medical doctors graduated. Approximately 200 of them were Bantu.

Let us now look at the position as far as Medunsa is concerned. We find—in reply to a question—that the estimated initial cost of Medunsa is said to be in the vicinity of R30 million. Administrative costs are estimated at R3 000 a year for each medical student and R4 000 a year for each dental student. The estimated annual intake is 250, of which 200 will be medical students and 50 will be dental students. According to my calculations, the annual running costs will amount to R800 000. I now want to mention something which is very interesting. The projected output, according to the hon. the Minister, by 1985 the projected annual output will be 150 medical practitioners. By 1990 the output will have increased by 10 to 160 a year, and by 1995 by a further 10 to 170 a year. The figures relating to the output of dental graduates indicate that by 1985 there will be 35 per year, by 1990 40 per year and by 1995 43 per year.

These figures indicate that between the years 1985 and 1995 one can expect an output of 2 450 medical practitioners and 580 dentists from the Medical University of Southern Africa. However, that is what one can expect. But what are the indications if one considers past results? I believe these figures are optimistic, because in the 25 years during which the University of Natal has been in operation producing medical graduates, 199 Bantu doctors have graduated but 299 have failed.

I believe the hon. the Minister will have to accept that the possible proportion of failures could—particularly in the initial stages—be reasonably high.

My colleague, the hon. member for Edenvale, gave projections in his Second Reading speech, projections which I believe painted a very depressing picture. Let me say unequivocally that the United Party has never begrudged education the funds we have been asked to vote. However, I personally would like to sound a note of caution. The Minister states that the initial expenditure on Medunsa is likely to be up to R30 million. Speaking from memory, I believe the estimated original cost of the University of Durban-Westville was approximately R11 million and that at 31 March 1975 the expenditure on buildings and fixed equipment alone had already reached the figure of R17,5 million an increase in a relatively small number of years of over 50%. The administrative costs for the year 1974-’75 was approximately R4,7 million. I suggest that the planning and implementation under present conditions should aim at a happy balance between extravagance and austerity. I believe we should aim to provide training and training equipment equal to the best and that savings should be effected wherever possible, but not savings on equipment. I believe that this should be done so as to ensure that when graduates emerge to play their part in health services, there will be adequate funds available to pay them on the same basis or ratio as their White counterparts with similar qualifications, similar experience and similar responsibilities. Let me draw the attention of the hon. the Minister to the fact that at present the salary ratio of Whites to Bantu is 100 : 72. The latest example I can produce for the Minister proves how sad the position is. According to figures given to me in January 1976, a Bantu chief specialist is paid a fixed salary of R11 250 per annum. However, if the hon. the Minister refers to the Government Gazette of April 1976, he will find that a post for a part-time district surgeon in Bloemhof was advertised at a salary of R18 000 per annum.

I would like briefly to deal with the hon. member for Lydenburg. I am sorry that he is not here at the moment.

He has left to answer a telephone call.

I do not have the time, otherwise I would wait. I do not refer to Hansard, but because it is briefer, to the SABC programme “Yesterday in Parliament”. According to that the hon. member for Lydenburg said that the UP, when it was in power, had neglected long-term planning for the training of Black medical practitioners.

[Inaudible.]

That hon. member does not know what he is talking about either, and I am going to tell him where he is wrong. The hon. member did not listen to the hon. the Minister’s speech, neither did he read the hon. the Minister’s Hansard afterwards. Had he done so, he would have read in col. 4542 the hon. the Minister’s brief description of the developments in Durban from about 1937. He also said—

The year 1947 was in the good old UP days. This indicated planning. However, let me refer the hon. member to his own publication “The Progress of the Bantu people towards nationhood ”. I refer to issue No. 5 published in 1960. This is what it says—

Who did the planning for that? Was it this Government or the UP Government? It could never have been put into effect in this time. It has taken ten years to plan for this university and it is still not off the ground. The article goes on further—

After the hon. member for Lydenburg had made his statement, he took the number of Black matriculants there were in 1948. He then almost answered the question when he said that in 1958 158 Blacks obtained matric exemption, as against approximately 100 in 1948. The record is low and it is difficult to trace statistics of 30 years ago. However, I have certain statistics which were given to me in 1965 and, as far as I can remember, they were given to me by the Department of Bantu Education. Figures indicated that in the years 1959, 1960 and 1961 the number of Bantu who gained matric exemption was 72, 56 and 76 respectively. Another fact the hon. member for Lydenburg overlooked, was that the UP, to the best of my knowledge, increased expenditure on Bantu education as the years went by. But this Government pegged the State expenditure for Bantu education for nearly 15 years. They pegged it at R13 million. What was the result? In 1954 the per capita cost fell from R17 to R13,80 in 1959.

You are still being 30 years behind the times!

I see that the hon. member for Lydenburg is back again and I am glad he heard the last portion of my speech. The hon. member talks about planning, but the planning was not sufficient to cope with the shortage of Bantu medical practitioners. At one stage they could not even make a projection because there was no trend on which to go. This is the situation after 27 years of this Government. I think we have cause to condemn the Nationalist Government for this.

I want to refer to one other aspect, i.e. in regard to the hon. the Minister’s indication— and I accept it—that consultation did take place with the homeland Governments. I now want to give the hon. the Minister the opinion of an individual whose opinion is, to my belief, valuable, as I believe he is in touch with public Bantu opinion. Referring to this Bill, he says—

We know that that is not the Government’s attitude, but it is the UP’s policy to extend services at that level.

In closing I should like to suggest to the hon. the Minister that he makes all reasonable efforts to expedite this. I suggest that he takes a good look and that he gives preference to practicability over ideology. Before I sit down, I want to urge the hon. the Minister to reconsider keeping the Natal University open for as long as it is feasible, to provide the much needed supply of Bantu medical doctors.

Mr. Speaker, I do not want to react to everything the hon. member for Berea said. He tried to make out that the Government neglected its duty as regards the training of Blacks. He also said that the Government should have made these training facilities available 15 years ago. Furthermore, he accused the Government of neglecting the training of the Blacks. Sir, this Government’s deeds speak for themselves. The other day the hon. the Minister provided information in respect of matriculation exemptions. The number of matriculation exemptions rose from 182 in 1960 to 3 225 in 1975. This in itself is a major achievement. It was this Government which established the University of the North, the University of Zululand and the University of Durban Westville, among others. How then, can this Government be accused of not establishing these facilities in time? Furthermore, training facilities for doctors were also made available at the University of Natal. It was not a case of their having nowhere to go. With reference to the hon. member’s last remark, I want to say that he knows very well what the policy of this Government is in respect of the establishment of facilities for each group. It is a conflict in principle between the UP and us and will always be disputed. Their standpoint is diametrically opposed to ours, because they maintained that these people should have been integrated into the various universities. This is the standpoint of the UP.

Mr. Speaker, we have now come to the Third Reading of this Medical University of Southern Africa Bill. It was a Bill which was drawn up after thorough investigation by the department and it meets a long-felt need. After this Bill comes into operation, the first students will be admitted in 1978. Two hundred of them will be admitted at that stage. During the Second Reading and the Committee Stage of this Bill, very little was said about the faculty of veterinary science.

Therefore I want to devote my speech specifically to the present need for veterinary surgeons in South Africa, Black veterinary surgeons in particular. At the moment the position is that all State veterinary services in the Republic, in South West Africa and in the various homelands are provided by the department of Veterinary Services and the Veterinary Research Institute of the Department of Agricultural Technical Services. With the coming into being and the independence of Bantu homelands it became necessary, in terms of Government policy, for each independent homeland to have its own veterinary services. Consequently it was decided that this step would be taken on 1 April 1973 in respect of Venda, Gazankulu, Lebowa, KwaZulu, the Ciskei, Basotho Quaqua and Bophuthatswana and this was in fact done. At the moment there are ten qualified White veterinary surgeons in the homelands, all of whom are seconded by the Department of Agricultural Technical Services. At present there are still 11 vacant posts in the homelands. The BIC has one veterinary surgeon in its employ.

I also want to sketch briefly the position in respect of qualified veterinary surgeons in South Africa. The figures I am going to mention now are provided by the Department of Agricultural Technical Services. There are 837 registered veterinary surgeons in the country, including South West Africa, and the distribution among the various fields of service is approximately the following: In private practice there are 456, of whom approximately 80 are in rural practices. In the Division of Veterinary Services, including the homeland services, there are 119. Forty two are engaged in research at Onderstepoort and there are 46 in training centres. There are 51 in industry, 15 in municipal services, and 108 in a variety of other services. The S.A. Veterinary Medical Association ascertained that in 1974 the shortage was 135. The shortage of veterinary surgeons is felt with particular force in the Public Service, where there are too few state veterinary surgeons to provide the services necessary in 353 magisterial districts, including those relating to the sphere of food hygiene. Apart from the vacancies, some state veterinary surgeons have to provide services in three or four, and sometimes five magisterial districts.

At the moment the faculty of Veterinary Science produces approximately 42 graduands every year. It is hoped that as from 1980 it will be possible to produce a maximum of 90. The S.A. Veterinary Medical Association has estimated the future demand for local graduands. They found that in 1980, 1 096 veterinary surgeons will be required, and 1 518 in 1985. Calculated at an critical accession of 40 graduates annually, and 80 graduates annually from 1980, with an erosion factor of 4%, there will be a shortage of 253 in 1980 and a shortage of 529 in 1985. These figures emphasize the need for veterinary surgeons and the necessity for meeting the needs of the homeland governments.

If one goes on to consider the livestock— and one has to consider this if one wants to take the whole position in respect of veterinary surgeons into account—we see that the homelands have approximately 37% of the total stock of cattle in the Republic and South West. Approximately 10,6% of the sheep and approximately 63,5% of the goats in the Republic and South West belong to the Blacks. As far as cattle are concerned, the Whites in the Republic have 8,5 million as against 3,8 million and 1,02 million owned by the Blacks in the Republic and in South West respectively. The condition of the livestock in the Bantu areas is, however, disappointing and we find that the turnover of cattle leaves a great deal to be desired. The cattle industry in the various homelands has only been partially developed, but there is a great deal of economic potential. In general the turnover of cattle is low. I just want to mention a few of the turnover figures. In the White areas in the Republic the turnover figure in 1970 was 18,8% and in 1974 it was 25,8%, as against an average figure of 1,4% in 1970 and 1,9% in 1974 in the homelands. The lowest turnover figure in respect of cattle in the homelands is in KwaZulu where it was 0,9% in 1970 as against 0,7% in 1974 and in the Transkei, where it was 0,2% in 1970 as against 0,7% in 1975. The highest figure is found in Bophuthatswana, where it was 4,1% in 1970 as against 6% in 1974, and in Quaqua where it was 2,6% in 1970 as against 5,5% in 1974. These low turnover figures can for the most part be ascribed to the traditional unwillingness of the Black man to sell his cattle, traditional breeding methods, ineffective management, higher marketing ages, an extremely low percentage increase and a high death rate. It is particularly in respect of the latter two reasons I have mentioned that sufficient staff for veterinary services could help immensely with regard to homeland development. By means of selection, breeding programmes, artificial insemination, castration, dehorning the cattle, control of disease, management and pasture rotation, this industry can grow and develop a great deal more. However, no one can do this better and no one can do it with greater inspiration than their own people, their own qualified people.

As I have said, the Department of Bantu Education made a projection of the requirements with regard to the training of veterinary surgeons. On the basis of the data at its disposal, the committee of inquiry recommended that training facilities for the Blacks be created as quickly as possible and that at least five veterinary surgeons should complete their training every year. The aim of a veterinary science faculty is not solely to train veterinary surgeons, but also to provide training to technicians, laboratory assistants, stock inspectors, etc. Although the former two categories are not urgently or immediately required at the moment, the training of stock inspectors is definitely of particular importance. According to a calculation by the Department of Agricultural Technical Services, there were 261 posts for Bantu stock inspectors in 1974 to carry out identified work, whereas there are only 76 in the service of the homeland governments. Furthermore only 17 are at present undergoing training. You will therefore appreciate that the shortage of Bantu stock inspectors is acute. Furthermore, it can be foreseen that this faculty may in time become the incentive for research and the manufacture of serum for the homelands. The pressure on Onderstepoort could be reduced in this way. These services could develop to such an extent that even if they were not of world standard, they could still be of African standard. This is the first faculty of veterinary science for the Black man in Africa. There is a definite and urgent need for a veterinary science faculty. We are very sorry that it cannot be established immediately but we know that due to financial reasons it is impossible to include it in the planning immediately. We should like to ask that the urgency of this project be borne in mind at all times because the people best able to inspire the homelands to optimum production are their own people, people who have received the necessary academic and technical training. These trained people, together with the agricultural training of the Black people at Fort Hare and the agricultural colleges, will contribute towards the development of the livestock of the homelands. It is vital not only for the future of the homelands but also for the whole of South Africa. It will also help to cause these people to move away from their present subsistence economy. The highest possible production of beef is vital for the homelands as well as for South Africa.

Recently, a large manufacturer of agricultural implements in South Africa made a donation to Fort Hare. Over the past eleven years this company has already put R120 000, in the form of bursaries, etc., at the disposal of the agricultural faculty at Fort Hare. Recently they announced once again that they would sponsor a chair in agricultural engineering at the university of Fort Hare for five years, with five annual donations of R20 000 each. I want to appeal to the private sector to follow this example and see if we cannot set up a faculty of verterinary science sooner at the new medical university of Southern Africa. This faculty of veterinary science could perhaps be brought into being sooner by way of donations and contributions from the private sector. I can assure you that the Bantu of Southern Africa definitely need it so that their people can receive more effective training.

Mr. Speaker, the hon. member for Vryburg has given us some very interesting statistics about the shortage of Black veterinary surgeons and trained personnel in the allied sciences, and I have no quarrel with what he said in that regard. I could of course give him an even more desperate picture, if I wished to, about the shortage of Black dentists in South Africa, but I want to come to the Bill we are discussing today and to say immediately that the official Opposition has made its position clear in stating that it intends to support the Third Reading of this Bill although it opposed the Second Reading and although the hon. member for Berea has admitted that not a single amendment of any significance was accepted by the hon. the Minister in the Committee Stage. However, the ways of the official Opposition have always been passing strange. They have never been well known for their consistency and they have always been unpredictable, and therefore the about-face and their change of attitude does not really surprise me.

Why did you not speak in the Second Reading?

Sir, that reflects no credit on the hon. member’s party and if I were he I would keep quiet about it, because in order to score a mean little trick off the PRP they were prepared to close down the debate on the Second Reading of an important Bill and cut out two of their most important speakers. [Interjections.] Sir, I want to get on with my argument and leave these piping little voices to talk among themselves.

I want to say at once that we are going to oppose the Third Reading of this Bill, for a number of reasons. First of all, although we are in full agreement with the need for more facilities in the Republic where African doctors can be trained, we are in principle against the establishment of yet another segregated institution for higher education in South Africa, more particularly as the establishment of this institution means the closing down of a really fine medical school at the Natal Medical School. It is a complete anomaly in this day and age, in the last quarter of the 20th century, to establish another segregated institution. We always did consider it wrong to segregate higher education in South Africa, and we still consider it wrong. The Snyman Commission emphasized in no uncertain terms that the separateness of Turfloop was one of the main reasons for the recurrent unrest at that institution, and only yesterday a Sunday newspaper carried a report which said that the rectors of the Black universities were in favour of desegregating their institutions. This, I say, is the direction in which the Government should be moving. It should be moving in the direction of opening the doors of all our universities and medical schools to suitably qualified students of all races in South Africa and to students from the neighbouring countries. All those universities who wish to open their doors should be allowed to do so. They should be allowed to open their doors to students of all races. I want to point out in this respect that even those universities which originally did not want to admit Black students are now taking them at post-graduate level. Unlikely institutions like Potchefstroom University and the Rand Afrikaans University, have announced their intention to accept post-graduate students. I believe that this trend will grow in South Africa and I believe it is eventually going to prevail in South Africa, and I think this is the direction which the Government ought to be encouraging.

The second objection we have is the manner in which the new Medical School is to be administered. It has been given the title of a university, but of course in practice it is going to be nothing of the kind. It will enjoy no autonomy, not even in the administration of purely academic matters. Practically every decision that is going to be taken must have the approval of the hon. the Minister. As was mentioned in the Committee Stage, the appointment of the rector, the vice-rector, and the lecturer members of the senate, the appointment, the promotion, the transfer, the secondment and the discharge of members of the staff, the admission of non-nationals, the fees payable and even when the external examiners may cease to be used, are all subject to ministerial approval.

To make matters worse, the Minister responsible is not the hon. the Minister of National Education, as should be the case in respect of all institutions of higher education. The Minister responsible is the hon. the Minister of Bantu Education. His record, as far as the administration of institutes of higher education is concerned, would hardly earn him a medal for meritorious service. While again stressing that no one queries the need for more medical training facilities for Africans, let me say that Medunsa will not, in fact, be doing a great deal towards providing additional training facilities for doctors because pari passu with its establishment the Natal Medical School is to be closed down. From next year the admission of African students is to be phased out. No more first-year admissions will be permitted after the end of next year, and no more second-year students thereafter. I consider this to be a tragic and retrogressive step. What, I wonder, is the reason behind the Government’s blind obstinacy in refusing to heed the pleas and arguments of the people who have been most concerned with the training of Black doctors for the past 25 years? I am referring, of course, to the staff of the faculty of medicine of the University of Natal in Durban. Let me add that their pleas were perforce made post hoc the ministerial decree to close down the medical school, because needless to say they were not consulted before the Cabinet took the decision to start the almost immediate phasing out of African admissions at the Natal Medical School, although the new medical school incidentally was, and still is, only in its planning stage. I have here a letter signed by the Dean, the Dean-elect, and 17 professors of the Natal Medical School, a letter published in the South African Medical Journal of 21 February 1976. In this letter it is stated, inter alia—

They also stress, of course, that they are in favour of the provision of more medical facilities for the training of Black students, but they are dead against the closing down of their institution. I believe that the professors who signed that letter may well make the proud claim which they have made, because in its quarter of a century of operation the Natal Medical School has not only graduated 216 African doctors, but it has also attracted medical men of outstanding ability, has established an international reputation and has obtained international recognition. Now this whole undertaking is to be closed down. Not only are the African students to be phased out but so are the Coloured and Indian students. Here was a marvellous opportunity for medical research in an area which contains all the major races of South Africa, an area in which original research of the highest importance has been and could continue to be carried out.

I want to quote the words of Prof. Malherbe who was, as we know, vice-chancellor and one-time principal of Natal University. He says the following—

I could not agree more with what Prof. Malherbe says. I want to point out that if the staff is upset by the Government’s arbitrary decision to close the Natal Medical School, the students are in a state of grim hostility about it. So strongly do they feel that they have opted out of taking any part in the 25th anniversary celebrations of the Natal Medical School scheduled for later this year. I have a letter written by one of the professors, indeed the Deputy Dean of the medical school, in which he says—

The letter refers to the plan to close down the Natal Medical School—

I believe it is futile, both from the race relations point of view and also from the point of view of increasing significantly the number of African doctors that we will be able to produce, to carry on with this scheme. I want to expand on this for a few moments. Setting up facilities at Medunsa has been estimated, to cost R30 million spread over six years. However, the Natal Medical University admitted 73 applicant students this year and according to the Deputy Dean the intake of the medical school could be expanded first to 100 and then to 160 additional African students at a total cost of R800 000. Therefore, since with an expenditure of R30 million we are going to increase the output of South African universities in so far as Black medical students are concerned by a mere 40, it does not seem to me to be a very good proposition. What is the point of replacing a perfectly good medical school, which is internationally accepted, by a new one at vast extra cost for 40 additional medical students or, I may say, 127 if the Natal Medical School does not expand?

There is a further effect which I have been informed of on the three existing Bantu universities where extremely limited facilities exist for the training of science students. I am told that the number of applicants is ten times the number of places available for them and that at the present stage each practical laboratory session has to be repeated five times. These three universities will have to accommodate all the first-year African medical students who intend going on to Medunsa and therefore they will have to cut back on their numbers of ordinary science students. The new requirements of the South African Medical and Dental Council are that all medical schools should adapt the first-year science courses to the medical course. This is a new slant altogether and it is no good for the straight science courses. This means that the training of the first-year medical students at the Black universities is going to differ significantly from the training of the first-year medical students at the White medical schools. I do not believe that this is a good thing.

I come to my final point. The hon. the Minister did give certain reasons earlier on, but since I cannot accept them, I want to ask again why the new medical school should be established at Ga-Rankuwa. He told us there is a large hospital nearby but I say there is a large hospital at Baragwanath which is nearby Soweto which is the largest Black city south of the Sahara.

Why only near Soweto?

Because Soweto happens to be the largest city. It has a huge hospital which is already functioning as a teaching hospital and many more students could be readily trained there. For an amount of far less than R30 million, hostels could be set up and the actual medical school itself could be established. It will be far cheaper than to start an entirely new institution out at Ga-Rankuwa which is about 40 km from Pretoria and which will not have easy accessibility for the part-time specialist staff who will have to do the teaching at that medical school. It will be difficult even for the Pretoria Medical School and I believe that it is going to be wellnigh impossible for the Witwatersrand Medical School, to supply part-time specialists for teaching purposes.

Also, I see from the White Paper that the medical school at Ga-Rankuwa is to be established on land owned by the S.A. Bantu Trust near the town of Ga-Rankuwa which is, of course, in the Bophuthatswana homeland. Since this land is owned by the S.A. Bantu Trust, could the hon. the Minister tell me whether it is intended to hand this over to the Bophuthatswana homeland and, if so, at what stage is it intended to do that? I want to point out that Bophuthatswana is one of the homelands which has opted for independence. The hon. the Minister proposes that this new Black medical school should serve all eight African ethnic groups. Does he think that this state of affairs will necessarily continue? Furthermore, if this land is handed over with the medical school and the hospital which will presumably be on it, does he think that the training facilities will necessarily still be open to the other seven ethnic groups after independence? I should like to know whether he has had any assurance on that count.

For all the reasons I have given, I want to say that we are going to oppose the Third Reading of the Bill. [Interjections.] I think it is an interesting point and I should like to know about it. What I believe we should be doing in order to increase the supply of Black doctors in South Africa, is, firstly, to expand the facilities at—not close down—the Durban Medical School. Secondly, I believe we should be re-opening our segregated medical schools—that is, those that wish to reopen. This means that both the University of Cape Town and the University of Witwatersrand will immediately open their medical schools to Black trainees. I am prepared to bet that others, who were previously against this, will not be long in following suit and that they too will open their doors to Black medical students. I am referring to the other universities. Thirdly, I believe we ought to build another medical school which should be open to all suitably qualified students of all races because there is an overall shortage of medical training facilities in South Africa. And I believe that such a medical school should preferably be built in a place which is easily accessible both to students and to teaching staff.

Mr. Speaker, let me begin with the last speaker, the hon. member for Houghton. I am afraid that in dealing with the standpoint of the hon. member for Houghton, we are always faced with the fundamental difference between her and us as far as matters of policy are concerned. This causes the specific issue one is dealing with to be blurred. In this case the hon. member for Houghton again phrased her speech in such general terms that the specific issue of Medunsa became rather blurred because her remarks covered a fairly wide range. Mr. Speaker, I am afraid that I shall have to err in the same direction to be able to reply to the hon. member.

The hon. member said that the PRP would oppose the Third Reading of this Bill.

She does not want any school at all.

Yes. It is a great pity that they are going to oppose it, for if they should oppose the Third Reading and if the Third Reading should be turned down, it would mean that no institution would be established. It would mean that even the small existing one which is quite inadequate and which is unsuitable for expansion, i.e. the one in Natal, would not be able to produce a larger number of doctors for the Bantu either. Not half a dentist or veterinary surgeon can be trained in a special institution.

They can go to Onderstepoort.

Mr. Speaker, has the hon. member not finished her speech? She had ten minutes left, after all. Why does she keep on talking now? Am I not allowed to reply to her now?

Yes, with pleasure. But try to be polite.

The hon. member’s attitude to the Third Reading is utterly untenable. I should like the Bantu people of South Africa to take cognizance of it. As against that we have the attitude of the Official Opposition, an attitude I quite appreciate. I know that the Official Opposition is not very happy about this Bill. We heard their standpoints. We exchanged views quite frankly. In spite of everything—I say “in spite of everything” because this is the expression I suppose they will use—the Official Opposition sees a chance in this Bill to produce more doctors for the Bantu people in South Africa. They regard the Bill as an opportunity to create proper facilities for the training of Bantu dentists in South Africa. This is something which has never existed before. The same applies to the creation of training facilities for veterinary surgeons. In my opinion, this is a very sensible attitude which the UP is adopting. I want to express my appreciation to them for having intimated that they will not vote against this Bill. In fact, they have clearly indicated that they will support the Third Reading of this Bill. As far as I am concerned, this is a very acceptable attitude. However, I shall not allege that I have convinced the UP and that they share my views on this matter. On the contrary. To use a very well-known expression, I may say that I believe the UP has after all heard the voice of reason in connection with this matter. [Interjections.] The hon. member for Houghton has not heard it, of course. She is obstinately resisting it. It is so pathetic that whatever measure is proposed by this Government— whether it is concerned with this proposed medical university or with anything else—it is always violently opposed by the hon. member for Houghton. The hon. member opposes everything, even if her opposition is injurious to the Bantu people. In this case her attitude is specifically injurious to the Bantu people. However, she does not care. She is against the Government just because she has to be against the Government. The hon. member for Houghton should have been an Irishwoman. She has the mentality of an Irishwoman. She is always opposed to everything that is proposed by the Government. [Interjections.]

Because your policy is bad.

Mr. Speaker, the hon. member for Houghton actually used this opportunity for emphasizing her old standpoint again, i.e. that all the existing universities should be opened to the Bantu in South Africa. She was concerned here with medical training, but she knows that she really wants this for all kinds of training. As far as she is concerned, the proposed medical university which this Bill deals with is not really necessary at all. I believe that the hon. member will not require me to reply to her on that point, because this is a matter we settled as far back as 1959. That was when the extension of the University Education Act was debated in this House. Through all the years that have passed since then, the Government has been stating its fundamental standpoint here. The hon. member for Houghton knows very well what it is, i.e. that each population group in South Africa must be provided with its own training facilities, as is the case with every nation and every country all over the world. That is why we should like to create a university of its own for every Bantu people. Nothing would have given me more satisfaction than the realization of that aspiration during my term of office as a Minister, i.e. the provision of a university of its own to each of the Bantu peoples of this country. As far as I am concerned, every Bantu people should also get its own medical training centre. However, politics, the administration of national affairs, and the development of the homelands are matters of practical reality. They have to be borne in mind. So this Government must take only those measures today and tomorrow which will be the right steps with a view to future development. This is what the Government is in fact doing in this case. It is laying the foundation here for a vast edifice with regard to the future development of all the Bantu homelands. For that reason the Government is in favour of providing separate facilities for every Bantu people.

The hon. member for Houghton spent a great deal of time in discussing the medical school at the University of Natal.

It is very relevant.

This is a matter which is not relevant here, strictly speaking. This Bill is not aimed against the medical school of the University of Natal. It is not a negative Bill. It is a positive Bill, a Bill creating a specific university with more facilities for medical training, as well as more and modern facilities for veterinary and dental training, in comparison with the existing facilities at the University of Natal.

The hon. member for Houghton even produced personal letters here. She even mentioned the names of the people who had written the letters.

Two were published.

Mr. Speaker, I definitely refuse to keep quiet in order to give the hon. member for Houghton an opportunity to make a speech from her seat. It is also somewhat difficult to make myself heard while she is speaking. However, I want to say to the hon. member for Houghton that in my opinion it is a reprehensible method—and it is a method she often follows in this House—to read out letters by other people. I, too, have received letters in connection with the medical university we are envisaging here. The hon. member would be surprised, it would send shivers down her back, if I were to tell her from whom and from where I got some of the letters. However, I am not going to use them. They are only meant for my own orientation. I do not think we should do this in a debate in this House. I do not know whether this is perhaps a typically feminine way of arguing, but in my opinion it is arguing on a personal level and as such it is not relevant.

The hon. member also spoke of expanding the Natal University. I cannot argue with the hon. member about that either. I should not discuss it with her here. It is clear that the matter was investigated, not by my department, but by the Department of National Education, under which the University of Natal falls. After the matter had been investigated, we were informed of the findings, i.e. that it would not be justified financially and otherwise to make expansions on the same scale as the developments in connection with Medunsa. It is completely impractical to do this at the University of Natal. The matter has to be approached from this point of view as well, and that is what we did before we introduced the legislation. The hon. member also asked me a question which has been asked before in debates. She wanted to know why the proposed university had not been planned for a place such as Baragwanath, why it was to be erected specifically at Ga-Rankuwa. But the hon. member knows our policy standpoint in this connection. If the hon. member asks me why the medical school was not planned for Baragwanath, she might as well ask me why it was not planned for Soweto, or why Ngoya was not planned for Kwa Mashu, or why Fort Hare was not built in Langa.

I did ask.

Yes, I know the hon. member asked that. That is the way she thinks, that is the way her mind works. The hon. member knows our approach. For the umpteenth time I want to object to the idea of expecting us, with our policy of separate development, to think the way the integrationists on that side of the House think. This is not our approach, after all. We do not want to build universities for the Bantu peoples in the homeland of the White man, nor in the group areas of the Coloured people or the Indians. We want to establish facilities for the Bantu peoples in their own areas. Soweto is not the area of the Bantu, but of the Whites. The Bantu are in Soweto by the grace of the Whites in terms of our policy, and the hon. member ought to know that.

The last question of the hon. member I want to answer is related to the situation of the medical school, as I have said, on the land of the Trust. I do not know whether the hon. member did not hear this, but I added that since this was Trust land, we could make it over to the university itself at any time because the university is a body corporate which may own land or property. It says so in the Bill. I am almost sure that in the future—we do not propose to do so for the present—the land of the Trust will be made over to the university, so that the university, in which all the Bantu Governments will be represented by their representatives on the council—together with us and the other parties—will become the owner of the land. I do not want to anticipate future developments and to say what will become of the university later when the land as well as the buildings belongs to the university council. It is possible—after all, it is conveniently situated—that the university will be made over to Bophuthatswana. However, I cannot imagine that this would happen immediately after Botswana has become independent, because the other Bantu peoples are also involved in this matter. They are joint owners of the university. It is a university which belongs to all the Bantu peoples. Therefore I want to tell the hon. member that she asked an extremely premature question. Consequently I need not go into it any further.

The speaker who preceded the hon. member for Houghton was the hon. member for Vryburg. In my opinion the hon. member did everyone in this House a favour—he certainly did me a favour, and I think the same applies to the Bantu and the people who are concerned with the university—with the explanation he gave of the great need for the Bantu to receive veterinary training with a view to the development of stock-breeding and, if I may term it so, of the animal kingdom in the Bantu homelands. Unfortunately the hon. member did not have time to finish his speech. I want to congratulate the hon. member on the valuable contribution he made in the short time available to him. I want to convey my sincere thanks to the hon. member for Berea, who spoke first, for having supported the Third Reading of the Bill on behalf of his party. In fact, I have already responded to that.

[Inaudible.]

Yes, as my hon. friend, the Chief Whip, says, the hon. member gave the Bill his support, but then he spoke against the Bill. I know the hon. member had a good deal of criticism against the Bill. To various aspects he raised various objections. I said a short while ago, not with reference to what the hon. member said, but arising from the debate up to now, that I understand the attitude of the UP. I understand that they are not happy with everything in the Bill, certainly not with all the details and certainly not with the general purport of the Bill. There are fundamental differences between them and us. However, we must nevertheless appreciate the fact that although they are dissatisfied with all kinds of things in the Bill, they do see the major point, i.e. that in passing the Bill, the Bantu people would be rendered a service, a service we cannot withhold from them. For that I want to thank the hon. member.

The hon. member said—the hon. member for Houghton said so too—that not a single amendment moved by the Opposition parties had been accepted. The hon. member was not here when we did accept one of his amendments. Because the hon. member was not here, the hon. member for Edenvale handled the matter. The amendment I accepted was an amendment of the hon. member for Berea. For technical-political reasons, the hon. member for Edenvale was unable to move the amendment. I then took over the amendment. I want to thank the hon. member for Berea and the hon. member for Edenvale for being the fathers of the amendment in respect of which, if I may term it so, I then had to assume the role of mother.

The child is going to be all right.

So there is one amendment for which we can give the UP credit, an amendment I took over to assist the UP politically.

The hon. member pointed out quite rightly that in the past there had been a failure to train Bantu dentists in particular. This is a very unfortunate fact. However, I want to say to the hon. member that we have allowed Bantu persons over the years to study at certain other universities, apart from the University of Natal, such as the University of Witwatersrand and the University of Cape Town. We allowed them to study medicine at those universities. If a larger number of Bantu students had wanted to take up dentistry, we would have admitted them, if it could have been justified. If I remember correctly, we allowed one or two Bantu students to study dentistry. As far as I can remember, no students applied for admission to the veterinary faculty. The reason for this was probably that the necessary facilities were lacking. Now that the facilities are being created, hon. members on the other side will join forces with me in seeing that students do come forward to study in this direction. I want to correct the hon. member for Berea on one point, unless I misunderstood him. He said: “The new institution will be in operation in 1982.” However, this is not quite correct. The intention is that the new medical university near Ga-Rankuwa will begin to admit second-year students as early as 1978. This is the way it is being planned at the moment. The year after, third-year students will be admitted.

I meant the first finalists.

Then I will leave the argument there because I need not correct the hon. member. However, it was not quite correct the way it was recorded, and I had to correct the hon. member. The hon. member also referred to the figures I used in my speech. I want to give the hon. member a brief explanation of these figures again, because I think he interpreted my figures in too narrow a sense. I gave the figures regarding the number of White, Indian, Coloured and Bantu doctors that were available for serving those groups. Surely the hon. member knows as well as I do that those figures are theoretical approximations. They proceed from the assumption that the Bantu lead a completely isolated life here in South Africa, as do the Indians, the Coloureds and the Whites. But the Bantu doctors do not work only among the Bantu community, and the same applies to Indian, Coloured and White doctors. The figures I furnished would have been applicable only if the South African population had consisted exclusively of Bantu or Coloureds or Indians or Whites.

In practice, the position is much more favourable. I gave that favourable figure during my Second Reading speech here in this House, i.e. that for the population as a whole, there is about one doctor for every 2 000 people at the moment. The White doctors in South Africa do not serve only the Whites, and for that reason every White doctor in South Africa does not have to care for only 400 people. Every White doctor in the country is available to the whole population and in fact does more work outside than inside the White community. Basically, the same applies to the Indian and the Coloured doctors, because they too can treat patients outside their own communities. I think the hon. member must realize this. I say this because after my Second Reading speech, I saw a conclusion in a report somewhere which was based on the assumption that the figures I had furnished meant that White doctors treated only Whites, Indian doctors only Indians, Coloured doctors only Coloureds and Bantu doctors only Bantu. However, this is not the case.

The hon. member for Berea wanted to know from me whether we would allow the medical school of the University of Natal to remain open to all race groups as long as possible. However, this is a request which the hon. member should not address to me, because I have no power over that medical faculty. My department and I have investigated the matter thoroughly, together with the other Minister concerned and his department. Of course we shall watch the position very carefully. We plan to build at Ga-Rankuwa and we do not know what difficulties may arise. However, I want to assure the hon. member that we shall watch the position, but at this stage I cannot give the hon. member any further assurance. This is all I have to say in this connection. Finally, I just want to express my thanks to hon. members on both sides of the House for their contributions, for the assistance they rendered me in that way, and to the UP in particular for the support it gave to this measure.