Mr. Speaker, after the Health and Planning Votes have been disposed of, the following Votes will be taken in this order: Public Works and Immigration; Water Affairs and Forestry; Justice and Police; Indian Affairs, Community Development and Tourism; and Coloured Relations. I may just mention that it is the idea to extend the Third Reading of the Appropriation Bill by a few hours so as to facilitate certain discussions, inter alia, the discussion on the report of the Theron Commission.

Mr. Speaker, I move without notice—

Mondays

10h30 to 12h45
14hl5 to 18h30
20h00 to 22h30

Tuesdays

10h30 to 12h45
14h15 to 19h00

Wednesdays

10h30 to 12h45
14hl5 to 18h30
20h00 to 22h30

Thursdays

10h30 to 12h45
14hl5to 18h30
20h00 to 22h30

Fridays

10h00 to 12h45
14h15 to 18h30

Saturdays

9h30 to 12h45

14h15 until such time as the House adjourns upon its own resolution.

We hope to be able to complete our work by next Saturday, 26 June.

Question agreed to.

Mr. Chairman, I found it pleasant to listen to the debate the whole of yesterday afternoon, to the contributions which were made from both sides. This department does not really have anything to do with politics, and is inspired only by a ministering love for mankind, to express it idealistically. All hon. members, with very few exceptions, made it apparent from their speeches that they put that important consideration first. As I have said, there are no politics in health matters, and hon. members on both sides adhered to that tenet.

†Mr. Chairman, praise for the department came from many quarters, from both sides of the House, and I wish to express my sincere appreciation for those expressions of praise towards the department especially. To a certain extent I perhaps can be so bold as to include myself.

*Now, I just want to refer for a moment to the target budgeting system. This stems from the report of the Franzsen Commission of 1970. It was decided that the person who has to do the planning must know for what purpose the moneys are to be spent, and has to make provision for those targets in the years which lie ahead. This is a short summary of the system. It was then decided, after an extensive investigation by the Department of Finance as well as by my department, to entrust this system to the firm Programme Systems Limited. It is being implemented by the Departments of Agricultural Technical Services and of Health. This led to our budget being presented in a different form this year, in six main groups, and there can be no doubt about what the targets of the various divisions of health care are. Hon. members will note that they are subdivided into administration, contagious, preventable and transmissible diseases, mental health, medical care, health protection—which includes matters such as atmospheric pollution, hazardous substances, drugs control and other aspects—and then supporting and auxiliary services. In my opinion this gives hon. members a better picture of how one ought to budget. This will also be extended to other departments.

†I first want to try to reply as best I can to what all hon. members had to say. I am a little restricted in regard to time; so, naturally, I cannot answer all the points which have been raised. I start with the hon. member for Rosettenville. He pleaded for private hospitals for non-White patients. I can assure him that regulations are at present being drafted by a committee of my department and the provincial administrations. We are looking into this matter. The criteria and conditions for private hospitals are going to be determined now on a new basis and according to legislation which was adopted earlier this year.

As far as a voluntary medical aid scheme is concerned, we have progressed very well. At the moment more than 3½ million people are members of existing medical schemes, including 500 000 non-White people. Negotiations are taking place at the moment with a view to establishing a comprehensive medical scheme for other national groups. As far as this is concerned, therefore, the hon. member can rest assured that the Government is not disinterested. We are trying to achieve all the aims that he has set for himself, taking into account the fact that he specifically stated that he was not asking for a State Health scheme.

The hon. member also spoke about the campaign against our mental services and in particular against our officials, myself and lately also against the Government, in fact all the people of South Africa, as they have now gone so far as to accuse South Africa on the forums of the United Nations. I must voice my disapproval of their actions as I have often done in the past. I have often warned these people, from this House as well as in public, that the time was approaching when we would have to make a final decision as to this movement’s position in the South African society. We are not vindictive, but we would like to be left alone to do the work that this Parliament has entrusted to us.

*The hon. member for Fauresmith referred to the National Laboratory Services and I want to thank him for doing so. These services are making progress. This indicates that an attempt to obtain a co-ordinated and better controlled service with an attendant saving in manpower and facilities in laboratory services throughout the whole of South Africa can be successful. Of course there is a rumour that the State wants to take over private practices. However, that is absolute nonsense. That is all I can say about it.

I took cognizance of the hon. member’s concern in regard to medical practitioners who have contracted out, and I want to tell the hon. member that we must first consider what is happening at present. In legislation which we approved the year before last we tried to accommodate medical practitioners as well as we were able, and followed this up with legislation in regard to medical schemes. We have a kind of gentleman’s agreement that this will not lead to a greater number of resignations and a greater number of practitioners contracting out of medical schemes. Up to the present, however, I have observed no signs of a fewer number of practitioners contracting out or of any rush to join the medical schemes. Hon. members must bear in mind that medical schemes mean private patients and equitable fees for the medical practitioner for the services he is rendering. Under the new dispensation the medical practitioner is himself able to determine the unit value of each service he renders to a patient. The Compensation Commission is in future going to determine only the compensation for the number of units. A total of 15 units may be allotted for an appendectomy, 10 units for a tonsillectomy and five units for a home visit. We went so far, as regards medical schemes, to grant them the concession that medical schemes will in future be allowed to pay even the medical practitioner who has contracted out if he works according to the specified tariffs. These concessions have been made, and I am now asking for their co-operation, to show what they, on their part can do to ensure the harmonious functioning of the scheme.

Yesterday I listened in particular to the hon. member’s appeal for co-operation between and the better utilization of medical practitioners and pharmacists. These are matters which are of great concern to me.

The hon. member for Springs and the hon. member for Standerton spoke very highly of our nurses. Among the Whites there are 25 000 registered nurses today, almost 17 000 among the Bantu, between 3 000 to 4 000 among the Coloureds and approximately 500 among the Asiatics. All these people deserve our support at all times. I am also asking for a better health plan. I have also taken cognizance of the fact that there are abuses. Of these abuses I want to mention one, i.e. a practice which gives rise to abuse. We cannot encourage people to become pharmacists—scientists after four years of study—and then not recognize them as scientists. The medical practitioner dispenses in accordance with his inherent right, but this leads to the abuse that some of these dispensing pharmacists are nothing but retailers. Dispensing is not part of a medical practitioner’s task. It is a pharmacist’s task. He has to be a scientist, and we are going to utilize their services to better effect in future. We are engaged in negotiations in this regard to see whether we cannot rectify the abuses in regard to dispensing. We are already doing this as far as State medical practitioners are concerned. We want an improved health team, a health team in which all the members carry out their obligations.

The hon. member for Fauresmith discussed certain other aspects, inter alia, the negotiations under the guidance of the department on the question of dispensing. He went into this in great depth. I need say nothing more except that medical practitioners who appoint unqualified people to undertake dispensing on their behalf are contravening the Medical, Dental and Supplementary Health Service Professions Act, the Act which we passed in 1974. They have no right to do that. The right which is granted to them is that the medical practitioner himself has to dispense, particularly the potent medicines and scheduled—the most dangerous—medicines. Therefore, if there are such contraventions, it is not wrong to bring them to the attention of the department.

†The hon. member for Berea commented on the puny sum we are giving to the National Cancer Association, these people who are setting themselves the task of preventing cancer as such. The amount which we are giving is only a nominal sum for administrative purposes; it has always been a nominal sum, as he has now directed our attention to it, I shall have it investigated. I must also tell the hon. member that this is not the only thing which the department is doing as far as cancer prevention is concerned. He must also look at the estimates, where he will see that where we have preventable diseases the department also allocates R366 700 in this regard.

I quoted that before I mentioned the R366 000.

As far as that is concerned I can also tell the hon. member that the treatment and prevention of cancer are mostly provincial matters. Eventually, as we try to get a better co-ordinated medical service, I suppose that we will also be able to co-ordinate this matter and see to it that expenditure on cancer prevention is higher than the amount we are now spending.

May I ask the hon. the Minister whether it is possible for his department to give an overall picture of the actual total allocation to cancer? I am not asking him to do that now, but is it possible for his department to give that overall picture?

No, not at the moment, but I could get the figures for the hon. member. It will be a pleasure for me to do so. The hon. member was also concerned about tobacco products and liquor, but let us just forget about liquor for the moment. The time will come when this aspect of the commercial television advertising of cigarettes and tobacco will crop up for consultation. However, consultation about this matter actually falls within the purview of the Department of National Education. We shall most certainly hold consultations about this because we have taken note of public feeling on this matter. I myself firmly believe that tobacco is indeed one of the causal factors in the aetiology of cancer. That is a well-proven fact.

The hon. member also mentioned the exorbitant prices charged by private nursing homes. We have had the commission of inquiry, we have had the necessary legislation and at the moment we are in the process of implementing the powers that have been given to us as a Government. I do not think, therefore, that the hon. member need worry about that. I am being inundated with communications from people who feel that there have been abuses.

The hon. member for Pinetown was very enthusiastic, as usual, about family planning. Many other members also spoke about family planning, for example the hon. member for Pinelands, the hon. member for Hercules and I think the hon. member for Umbilo. I am glad, however, that they all spoke about family planning and not about population control as such. I shall be saying a little bit more about that later on. I now just briefly want to react to a few of the matters the hon. member mentioned.

There are no figures available for vasectomy because this is not a notifiable procedure. It is rather private too. We are most definitely commissioning private firms to aid us in this campaign of family planning. Here I have some of the new posters I am going to send out. I have not bothered the House by showing the old posters. These posters however, are placed everywhere in the Bantu townships and even in the homelands. I think all members will agree that this method of motivation is a very acceptable one. The posters are in all the various required languages too. I will send these posters across to the hon. member, but I must caution him that these posters are at present still the property of the Secretary for Health. If he wishes the hon. member to have them, it is all good and well, but I must ask the hon. member to return these posters to the Secretary for Health until such time as the said permission is given.

I do not reject all of the criticism the hon. member put forward. I do not think, however, that he is completely au fait with everything we are doing. The facts and figures in the annual report do reflect a very big increase in the number of people who accept family planning. The annual report also reflects the number of members of our staff who are engaged in motivating these people, as well as the number of medical and technical personnel. Our efforts are, in my opinion, eminently successful because three years ago there were only 394 000 women attending these clinics, and our statistics are calculated on a monthly basis. By last year, however, the number had increased to 810 000. Our goal is at least to reach 50% of the women who run the risk of pregnancy. It is not a question of age; it is rather a question of demand on the part of those who run the risk of pregnancy, and they range from about 14 years of age to about 50 years of age. One even has to be careful after 50 years of age. We are nevertheless increasing our motivation campaigns, our public relations campaigns and our advertising campaigns. We are also increasing the funds to be allocated. About four or five years ago these funds stood at only about R600 000. Even now, in these days of inflation, we have succeeded in convincing the hon. the Minister of Finance that we need an amount of R5 327 000 for the coming year. The number of medical and technical people involved increased in one year from 624 to 734. If one looks at these figures, one sees that we have progressed beyond our expectations.

We may perhaps have to slow down.

The hon. member for Pinetown also referred to loopholes in the matter of abortion on request. I can assure him that as far as the mental cases are concerned, we are monitoring the cases for further investigation. Last year there were 476 cases. We are now also conducting investigations in so far as the doctors are concerned who performed the abortions. I must point out, however, that it is not our function to be vindictive. It is also not our duty to act as a police force. However, we have to look at this matter since we know from experience that the so-called “mental clause” led to abuses in England. We are therefore keeping an eye on the position.

*The hon. members for Brentwood and Bryanston, and once again the hon. member for Pinetown, discussed family planning. The word “birth control” slipped out in the course of the speech made by the hon. member for Bryanston. In respect of community clinics the hon. member for Brentwood said that he was pleased with the services which were being rendered. I am pleased that the hon. member advocated that we should, in the health services rendered by the clinics, stress preventive action, as we have been doing with great success in the Transkei. We can definitely hold up our services in the Transkei as a very good example. However, the community must also be of assistance as far as health services are concerned. When I say this, I must add at once that we must also help the community. By rendering community health services the assistance is taken to the individual, and in this way there is a considerable saving in hospital costs. In my opinion far too much emphasis is placed on curative services in hospitals.

I have deviated from the question of family planning, but I am returning to that immediately. I feel that there is a misunderstanding on the matter of family planning or population control. In South Africa there is a heterogeneous population. Therefore we cannot allow ourselves to be obsessed by purely economic considerations or by the spectres which are being conjured up around the so-called population explosion which is taking place in South Africa. Hon. members must remember that in my other portfolios I am also dealing with an energy, raw material and environmental explosion. One could say that there is one explosion after another. Two very good articles have been written on the so-called “crises”. The one was written by Meadows and certain collaborators, and was published under the supervision of “The Club of Rome”. The other article was entitled “Mankind at the turning point”. In these articles it was pointed out that matters of this nature should be approached on a global scale. It was also pointed out that we cannot think that we can solve these crises if we see each of them in isolation. They are simply nothing but global crises. To a certain extent I agree with these standpoints.

As far as family planning is concerned, however, it is a fact that there are regional differences. We find such regional differences in South Africa. Our population structure is heterogeneous. We have Whites, Coloureds, Asiatics and Bantu. Many of the Bantu live in the homelands. There are certain socioeconomic aspects which must always be borne in mind. In this regard I want to point out that we experienced a demand for family planning many years ago. It was with a view to this that we introduced our family planning programme. In the second place there are health aspects which have to be borne in mind. In this regard we think of the health level of families, and then the question of mother-care and child-care comes strongly to the fore. There is also the consideration that a person ought to have the right to be able to decide for himself whether family planning should be applied or not. Of course all aspects must be taken into consideration when such a decision is taken, for if this is not done it will not be possible to arrive at fair decisions. Aspects which are important in this regard are, for example, the opinion of a mother who feels that pregnancy constitutes a threat to her life. It has to be established of course whether there are grounds for such a feeling. Then, too, there is the young woman who feels that she will be handicapped for the rest of her life if she gives birth after a pregnancy. In her case, too, evidence has to be found. If all these aspects are borne in mind, family planning can be applied with good consequences. We are thoroughly aware of the important role which these various aspects play.

However, when one speaks of population control, one is speaking of something which is not acceptable in the South African set-up. It would perhaps be acceptable for my population group if I were to apply for population control to another population group. It is as Stuart Cloete once said—

Hon. members must remember that it is the task of the Department of Health to persuade the various population groups, in the light of the points I have enumerated—and I must say that the socio-economic considerations are the most important—to accept better health care and of course family planning as well. And we are meeting with acceptance. People can make speeches and hold symposiums and say that family planning has failed dismally and keep on talking about the crisis facing us and create a crisis psychosis if they like. We do not even know what technology will have achieved in 20 years’ time. In any event, South Africa’s average population per square metre is far lower than that of some countries of the East, countries which are being forced to take extremely drastic steps as a result of appalling population pressure, starvation and death rate. One has to apply such drastic steps when one is referring to “population control”, and then they must be applied to everyone. However, if one is able to persuade these people, and not only give them the right, but also create the circumstances in which they are able to accept this on the basis of a logical and rational approach to their own family and health, it is a completely different matter to that of making speeches at a distance and controlling them from above with drastic methods. Population control with a drastic decrease in the population has only occurred where free abortions were allowed and where direct or indirect coercive measures were applied to the family to have fewer children. For example, tax is increased as more children are born. However, we do not do this. One could also deprive a person of his housing if he has more children, or offer the wife certain benefits if she lets herself be sterilized, or we may even follow the same procedure with a husband. These are drastic measures. Is it right for us in the South African economic and intellectual set-up, with its many nuances, with the kaleidoscopic picture it presents, to speak here in general about a matter such as this? I do not think so.

I just want to say a few things to these people. In Rumania people have begun to propagate the idea of zero growth. One must bear in mind, when speaking about zero growth, that the day will come when the younger people, who are productive and who have to care for an ever-increasing group of elderly people as a result of good medical services, will dwindle. Last year, while I was travelling in Europe, I confronted several Ministers with this question, for they boast of almost having achieved zero growth, the nil position. I asked them: What are you going to do if these people who have to work and produce become relatively fewer in number? I asked them whether they would introduce a welfare state and if so, for how long it would continue. They did not have a reply to that.

We must think a little further than merely the reduction in a number of children. We must think of other aspects as well, and must, in any case, approach the matter judiciously and not hysterically.

I have said that the only effective way in which the population can be drastically reduced cannot be applicable in the South African situation. One must have a system here which is acceptable to all the population groups. They must then be allowed to cooperate with us, and in this respect we have achieved tremendous success. We are capitalizing on that success. A year or two ago I distributed a pamphlet among all hon. members, and we followed up on it. We are reaching large sectors of the population by means of the radio, and even television. The hon. member for Pinetown apparently put up a good show last night, according to what I hear from my people, in the performance on abortion. I was unable to be there. However that may be, those people who are advocates of population control must think twice. Population control is being applied mainly in one-party states of the East. It is also being applied in Soviet Russia. The people are succeeding. It is also being applied in China, and I can furnish hon. members with particulars of how it is being applied. I have already mentioned several of them. It is also being applied in respect of the age at which people obtain permission to marry. In China where the marriageable age for a woman used to be 16, it is now 18 or even 20. They encourage people—and in China they have very good political methods of encouraging people to do something—not to get married until they are 28 or 30 years old. Hon. members will be able to recognize countries such as Soviet Russia, Pakistan, Singapore and Columbia, from the circumstances prevailing there. Mr. Chairman, I do not think we should propagate population control. We must propagate what we are achieving success with at the moment; that which is not a contentious issue among us at present. It is being accepted in the homelands, and the people there are already co-operating with us. It is accepted everywhere, and in this way the economy is also being assisted. In this way we are adopting a humane and not an inhumane approach to this matter. We cannot escape the fact that the South African set-up, both intellectually as well as economically and otherwise, does not lend itself to anything but family planning. I want people to ask themselves whether what the Government is doing, that which is being proved successful by the figures, does not reflect the correct mode of action. These are questions which we must answer for ourselves.

While there were 900 service points three years ago at which people could receive assistance, there are at present 2 045. The number of women to whom assistance was given increased during the same period from 390 000 to 810 000. It is therefore clear that a tremendously large number of women who are subject to the risk of pregnancy can be reached and helped in this way. There is a time for everything. It is my desire that we should see the activities, the symposiums and other activities of certain people in perspective. In such a way we can cultivate a positive attitude towards supporting the Government’s programme of family planning as well. That is my request to everyone. These then are my views on family planning and population control, two matters to which the hon. members referred during the course of the debate.

†I am glad to know that the hon. member for Pinelands is not patronizing a certain movement. Unfortunately the same cannot be said of all of the hon. member’s party. We have documentary proof that certain individuals in his party are giving aid to those people. Perhaps they do not do so willingly or actively but they are nevertheless acting as instruments of those people. I feel I have to acknowledge that the hon. member has made a very good contribution to this debate when he spoke on malnutrition. However, I want to refer him to page 43 of the annual report. There he will see that my department is actively engaged in that particular field. Attention is being given, among other things, to the enrichment of powdered milk in order to combat malnutrition. Therefore, the hon. member may rest assured that this has not escaped the attention of my department.

Is the hon. the Minister perhaps having discussions with the hon. the Minister of Agriculture on the topics raised by Dr. Sebe of the Ciskei?

My department and I are giving attention to that. We take note of all the ideas presented to us in the way in which it was done by the hon. member.

The hon. member for Umbilo also raised some questions, and in particular the matter of Mr. Graham Johnstone. Mr. Graham Johnstone was committed to a mental institution by a court of law following a criminal trial. He was sent to the institution as a patient of the State President. In terms of the Mental Health Act of 1973 the power for the discharge of such a patient is in the hands of the State President, who acts on the recommendation of the Department of Justice. The medical practitioner of the Department of Health made the necessary recommendations to the Attorney-General for the discharge of that patient. While the hon. the Minister of Justice was in the process of discharging the patient the matter was brought to court by the committee of ethics in mental healing. Mr. Winchester is a patron of that committee of the Scientology movement.

The discharge of the patient was pending and therefore the court had no further jurisdiction in the matter. This clearly indicates that the committee cannot claim that it was instrumental in obtaining the discharge of the patient. Any such claim is false. The patient was subsequently discharged by the State President. If the hon. member requires more information, my department will supply it to him. We have all the information in connection with this case.

*I want to thank the hon. members for Springs and Standerton for their tribute to and their appreciation for the nursing profession. Both these members have a special interest in this profession and in the service which is being rendered here. I am very pleased about that. It is a pity that since there are only men on this side of the House and on the side of the official Opposition, the women must feel that they have been entirely forgotten. In this respect the PRP is slightly ahead of us, for they do have a woman member. Sometimes she is very difficult, but she can nevertheless take these things into account. Nurses are part of the health team. We are aware of the problems of student nurses. I want to thank the hon. member for Springs for his contribution on the training of nurses, and I want to give him the assurance that we will render every possible assistance to the Nursing Council in their efforts to solve their problems.

†The hon. member for Jeppe referred to the great pioneering work of Dr. Dormer, and I agree with him in that respect. I had the pleasure of visiting Dr. Dormer before his death in the King George V Hospital. I paid tribute to him and I associate myself with the tribute which the hon. member for Jeppe has paid him. I think he greatly appreciated the fact that I visited him, and I can assure the hon. member for Jeppe that Dr. Dormer’s name will not be forgotten. As far as the Santa centres are concerned, we all know that it is annually discussed here. It cannot be done in another way. The hon. member is so deeply involved with Santa’s activities that he cannot help himself, and I am very pleased about it. I enjoy visiting places where the hon. member is engaged in aiding people in their fight against this scourge among diseases with which we are confronted. The Government subsidy to Santa is about R2½ million this year, at least in respect of one item which I have looked up in the budget.

The hon. member for Bryanston referred to the failure of the Abortion Act. I do not think it has failed, because to my mind it has curbed unlawful abortions. Of the 476 legal abortions that were performed, not one woman died. There are still people who are talking about back-street abortions, and I should like to know where Prof. Strauss and Miss Cope obtained their information. Prof. Strauss estimated that there were 100 000 back-street abortions performed, while Miss Cope estimated that it was 200 000. The discrepancy indicates that these people really do not know what they are talking about. I admit that there are still back-street abortions being performed, but if we treat these people right and if we see to it that the public and our young people are correctly educated, I think we shall reduce the number of back-street abortions. Unfortunately at the moment more White people than Coloured people come for abortions. In this sense, the proportion is wrong. However, we are investigating it and it might be changed in the future. I want to tell the hon. member for Bryanston that I cannot use family planning as an instrument for abortion. I am very sorry, but it is not our policy and I think many hon. members will support me in this.

*The hon. member for Krugersdorp referred to the question of euthanasia, and I agree with him whole-heartedly. The hon. member explained very commendably what he meant by passive euthanasia. Of course we reject active euthanasia completely. The hon. member for Pietersburg also referred to this. I just want to tell the hon. member that it was I who used these terms for the first time 2½ years ago in an article in By. However, we are not in favour of active euthanasia, but are in favour of passive euthanasia—as the hon. member stated here. Active euthanasia could of course encourage free abortion as well.

As far as cancer is concerned, steps to counteract it are for the most part in the hands of the provinces, but I have already replied to that.

As far as homeopaths are concerned, I want to tell the hon. member that even if they do not have a council they are nevertheless able to go to court. Each and every one of them can apply to the court if they are dissatisfied with the ruling. Therefore it is extremely important. As the hon. member did, I, too, wish to express my gratitude to members of the medical profession. I believe that unselfish service is being rendered to the people, particularly to the poorer people who cannot afford medical services. If I have said anything in which I imposed obligations on them, it still does not mean that I do not have a very high regard for what is being done by members of the medical profession. On the contrary. There is the most cordial co-operation.

The hon. member for Hercules also discussed the question of the population explosion. It is true that it is not a world-wide concept. Nor is it necessarily a South African concept, but in respect of certain of our population groups it is in fact a South African concept. I have already expressed my opinion in this regard and explained what we are doing about it. The hon. member also referred to mobile clinics, information, education, etc. The hon. member referred to mobile clinics and courses with the object of reaching the husbands as well. We have taken cognizance of all these things.

The hon. member for Pietersburg also discussed disciplinary investigations. As I have already said I am concerned about this. The hon. member also referred to euthanasia. The hon. member made a very fine contribution in respect of medicine. The hon. member also referred to the possibility of making it easier to institute claims against medical practitioners and referred to the development in this respect in America. The hon. member gave us certain information which we have not had at our disposal up to now.

†The hon. member for South Coast spoke about diabetes. The hon. member made a very interesting sketch about this disease. It was a sort of text-book description. I do not know where the hon. member got it from. In this regard I should like to say that the Provincial Administration is the responsible authority in this regard. Diabetes cannot be detected in the early stage, and that is why it is not in the genetics programme. However, seeing that the Diabetics Association has already accumulated some money—I do not know whether any more is available—it is perhaps best for the hon. member, if he wants more research done in this regard, to take the matter up further. My department will aid him in approaching the Medical Research Council for more direct research into the matter. I know of one professor engaged in this kind of research. Definite provision is made for the supply of insulin to the indigent or needy communities. These can get insulin these days in terms of our policy. The high cost of insulin has not received special attention, but is covered in principle by the Commission of Inquiry into the Pharmaceutical Trade. In this regard the responsible Minister is the Minister of Economic Affairs.

The hon. member for Wynberg spoke about the allocation of State funds for research into arthritis, which is a crippling disease. I must agree with the hon. member. I listened with great interest to his speech. As a sum of R100 000 or more has been accumulated, I think the hon. member should approach the Medical Council with a view to perhaps having a joint venture in respect of research in this regard. I agree that this is very important. If the hon. member is not satisfied, he can approach me again. I think I have now replied to almost everything.

Is the hon. the Minister prepared to express an opinion on policy concerning the Bantu hospitals which are not in the Bantu homeland areas, a question which I raised last night, and also in regard to the medical school?

The hospitals for the training of Bantu students who want to become doctors is really a question of education and as such falls under my colleague, the Minister of National Education. I am not disinterested however, and therefore I am not going to sit on the side-lines and let things develop as if I were not worried. I can pass the buck easily. But I can say that I am to a certain extent involved in the giving of advice and the matter does not rest at the moment. As a broad principle I can say that any new doctor that we can produce every year for South Africa, whatever his colour, is something which will add to better health care in this country.

*In the space of two minutes I should like to say something about a matter which is of great concern to me. It is that the Department of Health is at present administering a total of 17 Acts. Nine of these Acts were totally revised during the past four years. A few of them are anachronistic, including the Public Health Act, which is still in High Dutch. The time has now arrived for us to give very serious consideration to this matter and my department and I myself are at present drawing up a comprehensive Bill, after the assistance which we received from the commission of inquiry under the chairmanship of Dr. C. V. van der Merwe, the hon. member for Fauresmith. I am already receiving reasonably good cooperation. The complaints over all these years, and also in regard to the minor changes which was mere patchwork, have been that health here in South Africa has been compartmentalized among provinces, local authorities and the central government, something which led to a lack of a cohesive policy for health care in South Africa. An end must be put to this. We have been struggling with this for 50 years. In this regard we are now engaged in drawing up a Bill. But I cannot do so on my own. Many talks have already been held. There are quite a number of people who have expressed opinions and who have asked us to change this Act. I have opinions here which I cannot mention at the moment. They would like us to arrive at a point at which the State assumes responsibility for health in a comprehensive sense, in so far as the determination of policy in South Africa is concerned. There can be a maximum amount of decentralization and delegation. I held talks with the Administrators a few weeks ago, and I can give the assurance that as far as they are concerned the co-operation is excellent. What is still left for us to do is to give a little thought to the fragmentation of the medical services, and the manpower and money we waste as a result, and it is my intention to introduce legislation next year in order to rectify this matter.

Votes agreed to.

Vote No. 22 and S.W.A. Vote No. 14.—“Planning and the Environment”, and Vote No. 23.—“Statistics”:

Mr. Chairman, I should like to make use of this opportunity to congratulate the new Minister of Planning and the Environment and of Statistics as well as his Deputy Minister on their appointment. I hope that they will be very successful in future in carrying out the great responsibilities which have been entrusted to them. I should also like to congratulate the new Secretary, Mr. J. F. Otto, on his appointment. He replaces Dr. Rautenbach. Dr. Rautenbach was appointed as chairman of the Public Service Commission. I should also like to wish Mr. Otto the best of success. In the past we maintained very good relations with his predecessors and I see no reason why this should be any different in the future.

We have kept politics out of this portfolio to a large extent and matters which fall under the portfolio, have been kept out of politics. However, where reprimands were necessary and where mistakes are made, we shall not hesitate to criticize such mistakes. Since the Department of Planning and the Environment has acquired a completely new management, it is fitting for us to expound the purposes and duties as we on this side of the House see them. We have already pointed out in the past the direction as we see it, and to a certain extent this is a repetition, but I do not think that it is inappropriate to indicate certain aspects of it.

The main aims of the Department of Planning and the Environment should, according to our point of view, be to plan and co-ordinate the physical and economic development of South Africa in order to ensure the optimum utilization of our natural resources in the interests of all our people. The Department of Planning and the Environment has five main functions as we see them.

The first one is research: To promote research activities systematically. This includes the compilation, co-ordination and correlation of scientific information so that it may be freely available. A further responsibility of the department is to boost scientific endeavours in South Africa. We also believe that there should be a central national research institute to encompass all research. At the moment the scientific and industrial research council falls under the Department of Planning and the Environment, but there are approximately ten or 13 other research councils and institutions which fall outside the control of that department. For instance one thinks of the Atomic Energy Board and various similar organizations.

The second main function of the department should be economic planning, to make advance calculations of South Africa’s development in macro-economic terms with an indication of an optimal solution, in five- and ten-year projections. In the past, the Economic Development Plan already proposed a growth rate of 6½% for South Africa and we have seen that this has failed in recent times as a result of uncertainties in our economic situation, possibly the line of thought of the planners and possibly also the action of the Government. At the moment the growth rate fluctuates from almost a ¼% to a negative growth rate, while in 1974 it was 7% and in 1975, 2½%. This gives a real growth rate over the past three years of only approximately 3½%.

The third main function of the department is the delimitation of residential and industrial areas which have to be planned, taking into consideration the requirements of all the communities in South Africa and which have to be planned in collaboration with them. We believe that if this is done effectively, there will not be the glaring shortages which exist at the moment as far as the provision of residential facilities and residential areas for Coloureds and Indians in South Africa is concerned.

The fourth main function is the optimal use and application of our soil, to plan and ensure our soil and also to institute control measures so that optimal utilization may be achieved.

The fifth main function is file development of economically viable growth points in South Africa.

In broad outlines these are the most important functions of the department as we see it.

There are separate divisions which, according to our ideas should stand as separate entities, such as statistics as well as environment conservation. There are various specific objectives which we should like to see enjoy special attention, namely the planning of soil for economic and human requirements and not for ideological considerations. Consideration should be given to granting a larger portion of the gross domestic product to research. At the moment, according to figures which we were able to obtain, we only spend 2% of our gross domestic product on research and we believe that this should at least be doubled to 4%. The planning of areas and the functions on a national, regional and local level must be carefully delimitated so that the gaps and overlaps which now exist, may be removed. In addition we see South Africa as one large geographic entity and this must actually include the homelands, even though they become independent. Agreements should be made with the Transkei and other possible future independent States which may be established. This planning must be done in their and our mutual interest.

Another specific primary objective is the institution of a master plan to ensure the optimum distribution of population and economic development of South Africa. In this connection one must take into account the pluralistic composition of our population and community, and this kind of planning has to be done in collaboration with all the other communities.

We are also in favour of the decentralization of industries, but this must for the most part be based on the economic feasibility thereof and on the sociological and strategical desirability of, this development and definitely not on ideological reasons as is often the case at present.

The last point which I should like to raise, is that most of the aspects which I have already mentioned, correspond with the approach of the Department of Planning and the Environment, except as far as one or two sections of the Environmental Planning Act are concerned, mainly section 3 which determines the growth points, and then of course also the new powers which the department recently accepted and which are set out in section 9(a). I believe that in the interests of South Africa we shall be able to co-operate well in future with the new Minister and his Deputy and I hope that we shall be able to make positive contributions in the future.

Mr. Chairman, on behalf of this side of the House, I want to convey our congratulations to the hon. the Minister, Dr. Schalk van der Merwe, on his appointment as our new Minister of Planning and the Environment. In this debate we should also like to wish him well in dealing with this Vote. We also hope that the Lord will spare him for many years and will provide him with wisdom and understanding to lead us in this most important portfolio here in South Africa. We also want to convey our sincere congratulations to the hon. the Deputy Minister, Mr. Janson, and we pray God to give him strength and wisdom so that he may support the Minister in this important department. We should also like to congratulate Mr. Fred Otto, the new Secretary for Planning, on his promotion to Secretary of the Department. Over the past year we have already learnt to know Mr. Otto as a person whose door is always open to us as members and who is always prepared to give us advice and assistance with a friendly smile. We congratulate him very heartily. We hope that his years of service in the Department of Planning which lie ahead of him will be very successful and satisfactory.

I cannot fail to express a word of thanks to the hon. Mr. J. J. Loots, our former Minister of Planning, who now holds the important office of Speaker of this House of Assembly. We have always valued his approach to matters very highly. He too always had a friendly smile and his door was always open when we needed him.

Our sincere thanks too to Dr. Piet Rautenbach, the former Secretary of Planning, for the service he rendered to this department over many years. Dr. Rautenbach has been attached to this department since its establishment and we want to thank him very much for what he did for South Africa through the Department of Planning.

Today I also want to express my appreciation to the Department of Statistics. This relatively small department has done gigantic work over the past year in the interests of South Africa and we want to thank Dr. Du Plessis and his staff very much indeed.

For those who are concerned with the planning function in respect of social development, urban construction, housing, the provision of food, education facilities and other large-scale provision for the future, statistics have become an indispensable scientific aid for the effective management and proper functioning of the various social and economic affairs of our national economy. It is practically unthinkable to carry out these functions without the assistance of statistics, because information on the present set-up is essential for future planning. Without the facts provided by population statistics, purposeful planning for orderly and balanced development and progress would be very difficult, if not impossible in certain cases.

We are very privileged in that, thanks to the Department of Statistics, we have statistics at our disposal upon which our future planning action may be based. The composition of South Africa’s population and the projections made in respect of population growth, demand purposeful planning from us as the highest priority. Population projections indicate that the present population of 25 million will have increased to approximately 50 million by the end of this century. There is little time, and we shall therefore have to decide finally what the South Africa of the year 2000 will look like. We shall have to ask ourselves whether we, like the PRP and the UP, want to let South Africa’s development go its own way with uncontrolled influx to, and therefore massive development in and around the existing metropolitan areas, the doubling of our large cities, accompanied by the tripling of the Sowetos, Langas and Nyangas, and also accompanied by a legion of social and political problems which may arise from this.

This is not how I should like to see this South Africa of the year 2000. We cannot allow the various nations—many of them coming from, or being citizens of independent neighbouring States—to crowd out one another in single metropolitan areas. I should like to quote now from an article in Die Transvaler of 30 October 1974. The article reads as follows—

For obvious reasons we cannot allow this average urban growth rate to run its course unchecked in and around existing metropolitan areas. We are gateful that the Government has already made provision for the decentralization of the increasing population away from existing metropolitan areas by means of the creation of certain large development points. Here I am thinking of places such as Saldanha Bay, Mamre, Atlantis, Richards Bay, Newcastle and Sasol II. In the Saldanha/Mamre/Atlantis area White and Coloured can develop next to one another in peace. There is space for them there. In Newcastle and Richards Bay the Black peoples may be settled in their homelands, and the Whites in the existing towns. The immense mining potential of the Northern Cape is already well-known. Mines are shooting up like mushrooms. Those mines mainly make use of Bantu labour. I want to point out that there is a great deal of concern among inhabitants of the Cape about the immense influx of Black labourers to development points in White areas. This is especially the case in my area, namely area 18 of the National Physical Development Plan which is adjoining Bophuthatswana. I am now using out-dated figures in order to indicate the contribution of area 18 towards the development in South Africa. In the first place I want to point out that the PWV area alone, areas 23, 25 and 30, provided a large percentage of the total gross value of sales of mining products than area 18. Only 14 of the 38 areas made larger contributions towards the gross geographic product of South Africa. With the mining development which is taking place there at the moment, plus the development which is being planned for the near future, there will be a dramatic increase in the mining contribution of this area. This area, where there is sufficient water, power and raw material and which adjoins a homeland, lends itself ideally to being developed as a border industry growth point in which part of the growing White population of the future in White South Africa may be settled, while the rapidly increasing Black population may be settled in Bophuthatswana. Neighbouring cities and states can be established here if purposeful planning is undertaken, if the necessary infra-structure is created and if the necessary co-ordination and co-operation of both the Government and private entrepreneurs could be had.

Sir, four years ago I made a plea for the creation of a regional guide-plan for this area. The Minister agreed to this, but nothing has yet come of it. However, I want to express my sincere thanks today to Mr. Willie Visagie and his team of planners, who visited this area last year to see what was going on there, and who made certain recommendations to the Minister. If we had drawn up a guide-plan four years ago, the planners would have had a clean sheet. They could have drawn up the planning as they wanted it, and would have brought about an ideal development situation. Today certain lines have been drawn which will have to be taken into consideration and which cannot be eliminated. There is already large-scale development in this region, and today I want to ask our Minister, who comes from the Northern Cape himself and who is my neighbour in that area, to give the highest priority to the drawing up of a regional guide-plan for region 18. The drawing up of a regional guide-plan for this region, will have to be done in collaboration with the Government of Bophuthatswana in order to obtain co-operation so that the Blacks can be settled in their area and the Whites in theirs. I therefore want to plead that the highest priority be granted to a guide-plan for this area, because we should like Black and White to live next to one another, each occupying their own homeland, to be able to complement one another. We shall be sorry if speedy action is not taken now, and if Sowetos are going to be established at Sishen and other towns adjoining the homeland.

Mr. Chairman, last year, during the discussion of this Vote, I urged the drawing up of a guide-plan for the axis of development between the old, existing Cape metropolitan area and the new metropolitan area which is being established along our coastline in the region of Saldanha Bay. I pointed out that there were several signs of over-concentration in the old metropolitan area around Cape Town. For instance, I am referring to the fact that water is being brought into that area. Eventually we decided that a guide-plan would be completed for the Saldanha Bay area. In this connection I should like to take my hat off to the department. The department on its part did everything possible and eventually we drew up a fine guide-plan for the Saldanha Bay area. Between these two poles is situated the whole coastal area from the metropolitan area of Cape Town as far as Saldanha Bay.

Mr. Chairman, I am sorry that the hon. member for Moorreesburg was unable to finish his speech due to his indisposition. Those of us who had the privilege to accompany the hon. the Minister to Atlantis earlier this year, were very much impressed by what we saw there, although it was a very rainy day. I was particularly impressed by the speech of the hon. the Minister and his approach to the industrial development for the Coloured people.

†Mr. Chairman, it is in this respect that I should like to address the hon. the Minister, especially as far as the Coloured people of Natal are concerned. As one with some experience of town and regional planning in Natal as a member of the provincial council and of the problems, which are enormous on their own and then further compounded by Government policy, I was agreeably surprised to hear the speech of the hon. the Minister that day at Atlantis. As a practical man and one who is always suspicious of academics and their approach to these practical problems such as are encountered in planning—whether it be in respect of resources, land or labour—I was really impressed by the Minister’s practical approach. It is sad that so little time is allocated to this debate on this very important department, a department which I feel is probably one of the most important departments in the Government, because, after all, without proper planning, how can there be constant controlled progress in any sector, whether it be in agriculture, industry, mining, housing or defence? It is most pleasing to see what provision has been made at Atlantis to accommodate the industrial aspirations of the Coloured people. The concept, in keeping with the Government’s policy of separate development, is magnificent, and I sincerely hope that this scheme will be a great success. But I want to ask immediately: What about the rest of South Africa? What is being planned for the Coloured people of Natal? In many cases there are not even group areas for Coloured people in Natal, let alone industrial townships. We do have a Coloured population in Natal. The Coloureds in Natal may not be the same type of Coloured that we have in the Cape, but nevertheless they are Coloureds. Natal is the new industrial giant of South Africa as the Department of Planning well knows. There has been tremendous development. These developments do not seem to take into account the Coloured people, who, here again, appear to be God’s stepchildren. Is it because they are being relegated to the position of the hangers-on of the Indian community, or is it because they are considered an unimportant minority? It is unnecessary to point out the tragic plight of the Coloured people in the Durban complex. The progress in Newcastle, Ixopo and in northern and southern Natal is no better. We hope that some of the vision and some of the action which the hon. the Minister and his department displayed at Atlantis, will also be shown in Natal.

The Coloured worker in Natal has an assured future if given proper training in the building industry because, strangely enough, those people seem to have a great aptitude for building work. However, it is no good to hope that they will become builders if there are no facilities for training them to do the work. The way they are learning at the moment, by receiving training on the job, is a most unsatisfactory method of learning a trade. We are expecting—and I say this with reason—an exodus of Coloured people from the Transkei into southern Natal before long. They are already on the move and I foresee a move in bigger numbers in the near future. Where they are going to live and where they are going to be employed, is a mystery. I therefore ask that the hon. the Minister, when he plans for Natal, should do it in a grand way. He should not only plan for the present population, but he should also plan with a view to a large influx of Coloured people in Natal.

I may be wrong, but when one looks at the future of South African industry and its dependence on Black labour, especially in the context of the Government’s overall policy, one cannot but be filled with misgivings. If one looks, for example, at the growth point of Newcastle, the following is clear. Iscor, the industrial giant there, is entirely dependent on Black labour provided by a labour force resident in a homeland which is at least five kilometres away from the Iscor works. A bus dispute was sorted out last year between the bus services and the commuters of Newcastle. The dispute resulted in a complete disorganization of the Iscor works and of all the other industries in the Newcastle complex.

The reason for that was self-evident, as those of us who went on the bus tour last year—the Parliamentary Group Tour of Richards Bay and Newcastle—saw personally. The situation was that the entire non-White working force of Iscor—which would ultimately consist of some 6 000 men—was sited in KwaZulu. As we know, KwaZulu is to become an independent State. It is generally well known that a complete work stoppage at the steel plant is a catastrophe which can cost millions. To put this power in the hands of what could be a hostile or an antagonistic politician is either reckless or the height of naïveté.

Richards Bay is just another example of such reckless planning. It has been agreed that only Zulu labour will be utilized in the Richards Bay complex. The Zulu labourers will be housed in KwaZulu homeland, and again about 8 km or less away from this great harbour complex, which with its loading basin—there will be queues of ships loading in the near future—will be completely at the mercy of the rulers of KwaZulu.

When I say this is dangerous, I cast no reflection on Chief Minister Buthelezi, for whom I have a great admiration, but he is, like all of us, expendable.

At Newcastle other labour is available to the industries there. That is why we appeal to the hon. the Minister to plan in a grand way for the Coloured people in the Newcastle area. Those Coloured people could fulfil a very useful role in the Newcastle area, and everything should be done to attract them to the industries developing there.

What plans has the hon. the Minister for providing alternative sources of semi-skilled labour in the Richards Bay complex? I would like to know what plans he has for the Coloured people in KwaZulu, in northern Natal. Have any plans been made for the industrial development and for their employment in this area, besides the work they are now doing? Although they are a small and relatively poor community, they are entitled to consideration in the grand overall plan of this Government.

In southern Natal there are also communities of Coloured people, but opportunities of employment for them are virtually nil. Group areas are being planned for the Coloured people in that area, but there are no industrial facilities in that particular area. Therefore I want to ask the hon. the Minister if—where there are established communites—it would not be better to try to furnish them with some form of employment in that area so that they can remain there where they have lived for generations and where all their family ties are? I am referring particularly to areas in southern Natal, for example, Ixopo, where there is a vast Coloured community of mostly farming people. The Coloured people there generally live on smallholdings. They should be encouraged to remain there, and they should be given the opportunity of purchasing more ground and of developing the area as far as possible. I want to ask the hon. the Minister to implement all his grand plans for the Coloureds in the Western Cape with expediency, but also, at the same time, to consider the needs of the Coloured people in Natal.

Mr. Chairman, the hon. member who has just resumed his seat, will understand if I do not react to what he said. I want to associate myself with what was said by hon. members on this side of the House who congratulated the hon. the Minister, the hon. the Deputy Minister and Mr. Otto, the new Secretary. The year began with a number of new officials in the Department of Planning and the Environment and we should like to convey our best wishes to these people who occupy important positions.

Today I want to say a few words about inter-territorial planning. In South Africa we have reached the stage where we have demarcated the 30 regions for which regional guide plans will ultimately be drawn up, guide plans from which a master plan for South Africa will be drawn up. We have also reached the stage where we will deal increasingly with other independent States in Southern Africa. A group of these already exist, namely Swaziland, Lesotho and Botswana. There are other States which are on the road to independence, for example the Transkei. Over the years we have also forged ties with other Africa States in Southern Africa. Examples of inter-territorial planning which already exist, are the Cabora Bassa scheme, the schemes in the Cunene River and in Angola, etc. I believe that we have reached the stage where we must pay attention to the establishment of inter-territorial planning relations between White South Africa and our Bantu homelands who will shortly become full-fledged States. It is absolutely essential, because we know that economic interdependence between States and nations in Southern Africa forms an integral part of this whole system of ours. This economic interdependence entails immensely large possibilities for us with a view to a vision of existence for the future.

As the hon. members for Kuruman and Benoni said, we must appreciate that we cannot apply regional planning and have regional guide plans, unless we also take into consideration the position in respect of the Bantu homelands and the Bantu homelands which are about to become independent within the borders of the Republic of South Africa. It is absolutely essential that in this whole milieu we shall have to think of whether certain tendencies of development cannot only take place within homelands or within other States while other tendencies of development should take place in South Africa. These development projects must, however, be tied up with one another—i.e. we must be able to sit together with our neighbouring States and these States which are about to become independent in order to determine which development each one is going to undertake. This must be based upon the concept that economic interdependence does indeed exist in South Africa. To me, this is not only becoming more and more important academically, but also more important practically that we should have a projection from the hon. the Minister of the way in which we may expect these matters to develop in future.

A second matter to which I should like to pay attention and for which I should like to express my gratitude to the hon. the Minister and the department, is that in region 23—hon. members heard from the hon. member for Kuruman how important this region is—we have been privileged by the appointment of a planning advisory committee, one of the four advisory committees which were to be appointed. On behalf of the Western Transvaal Regional Development Association I should like to tell the hon. the Minister and his department that we are particularly appreciative of the fact that the work of the regional development associations are considered so important by the hon. the Minister that their recommendations enjoyed high priority with the hon. the Minister. It may sound feeble that we want to express our appreciation to the hon. the Minister for this. However, I think that the hon. the Minister and the department really summarized the actual essence of planning in this. One will be able to make the most of planning if the people in the region themselves plan or help to plan. If value is attached to the work and status of the regional development associations and they receive recognition from the hon. the Minister as they have done, we are assured of the fact that the interest groups in that area will pay attention to whatever a planning advisory committee may present. We may therefore be assured of those people’s co-operation. The duty of the department and the Ministry is going to be made so much easier with this co-operation in the implementation of the ultimate master plan which is intended for South Africa. We are highly appreciative of what the hon. the Minister and the department are doing.

While I am expressing my gratitude, I also want to ask him, if it is at all possible for the hon. the Minister, to give an indication during this debate of the progress we have made in South Africa in respect of the establishment or development of other regional development associations and regional advisory committees. I want to repeat what I said two years ago during the debate, because I should like to bring it to the attention of the hon. the Minister once again that I believe that if these regional planning advisory committees exist and if regional development associations exist in all regions, it is essential to think in terms of a conference of the chairmen or officials of the regional development associations and the regional planning advisory committees in order to bring about uniformity of approach in respect of the whole planning concept for South Africa. I know that the argument has been that the time is not quite ripe for this. However from our side we must take these people’s hand and help them in their approach towards the planning of their areas. I can only see advantages for the planning action in South Africa if we can convene a conference or a symposium of the officials or delegates of the regional development associations and the planning advisory committees. Useful ideas can be exchanged and the ideas of other people who have perhaps not yet had the experience which others of the development associations and advisory committees have already had, may be beneficially influenced. This can only be to the advantage of the entire planning action.

Then I shall also be particularly grateful if the hon. the Minister could give an indication at this stage of what aid will be given from the department to regional planning advisory committees, in the form of the establishment of facilities in order to employ proper planners or to render financial aid in order to be able to organize the administration of the committees in such a way that it will not necessarily have to be done by members of the committee themselves because the members of those committees are delegates or in any event nominees of certain other bodies and are therefore already fully involved and will not always be able to give their attention to that work. I should appreciate it very much if it would be at all possible to obtain some information on this score.

Mr. Chairman, since I should like to express a few ideas on the subject of the staggering of working hours, I shall not refer to the well-conceived ideas expressed by the hon. member for Schweizer-Reneke. The staggering of working hours is a subject with a variety of facets, a few of which I want to explain. The staggering of working hours, peak hours and traffic congestion go hand in hand. Peak hours cause traffic congestion and this can be eliminated by staggering working hours.

The matter of staggering working hours has a long history. The report of the Commission of Inquiry into Urban Transport Facilities in the Republic, dated 26 June 1974, deals with the matter of staggering working hours. In paragraph 3.9 of this commission’s report reference is made to peak hour traffic. It is stated that the worst effects of the urban transport problem are generally experienced during the early morning and late afternoon peak traffic periods. Such peak hours are caused mainly by the relatively uniform times of starting and finishing work. An earlier survey conducted by the South African Railways in the Western Cape indicated that approximately 88% of the working White passengers travelling between 06h00 and 09h00 start work between 08h00 and 08h30. In one of the findings, in paragraph 3.14.6, it is stated that the phenomenon of peak hours in urban transport results in (a) traffic congestion which involves the community in excessive socio-economic costs emanating from traffic delays, and (b) additional investment in transport facilities which are required to cope with peak traffic periods. This raises the question of the savings which could be effected if the peaks could be “flattened”.

It is therefore no wonder that the report gave attention to urban transport facilities and made the following recommendations concerning the staggering of working hours in paragraph 6.3.7—

Arising from this we had the Urban Transport Bill, specifically clause 15(1)(e) of the Bill, which provides, inter alia, that the council should promote the co-ordination of transport in the metropolitan area concerned, including the staggering of working hours.

At the behest of the Minister of Planning an auxiliary committee of the Planning Advisory Council of the Prime Minister was established. This auxiliary committee met on 25 October 1973 for the first time so as to institute an inquiry into a system of staggered working hours in order to alleviate traffic problems. The terms of reference of the committee of inquiry were to inquire into and make recommendations on the introduction of a system of staggered working hours in the larger urban areas in an attempt to alleviate traffic problems. In addition to this basic term of reference the committee was also to give attention to the best manner in which such a system could be applied, i.e. whether by means of enforceable measures by the authorities, by means of conviction or persuasion, or by means of an incentive system of some kind.

At the first meeting of the abovementioned committee it was decided that the first task would be to give attention to the problem as it occurred in Pretoria as this city’s problem, in the light of its relatively simple professional distribution, could probably be solved more readily than that of any other South African city and because of the fact that this city was situated reasonably centrally as a result of which information and experts were readily available. The object of the studies in Pretoria were, inter alia, to apply the experience gained in Pretoria to other cities, where different problems may occur in the light of their specific population and professional distribution, connected with the physical environment of these cities. Arising from the recommendations of this committee, a standing committee was appointed and during August 1975 this committee published its report. It was stated in the report that relatively the magnitude of the problem of congestion during peak hours, i.e. in the morning and in the afternoon, in South African cities was apparently greater than in foreign cities like New York, Washington and London. The causes for this should possibly be sought, firstly, in restricting shopping hours, which, basically, correspond to office hours. The second cause is the heterogeneous composition of the population, and, thirdly, the unwillingness on the part of the South African worker to accept a different starting time to the one to which he is accustomed. This valuable report investigated methods of achieving a more even distribution of starting and closing times, more specifically, with a view to a definite contribution being made to the solution of traffic problems during peak hours by the more even distribution of starting times over the period 07h15 to 08h45 and of closing times from 15h45 to 17h15. There are three methods of achieving a more even distribution of office hours, viz. staggered office hours, flexitime and an adjustment of shopping hours.

From the foregoing it is evident that a meaningful study of and inquiry into these complex problems of the distribution of working hours has already been undertaken. In Pretoria in particular a start has been made but I should like to see the activities of this committee being extended as soon as possible to other metropolitan areas as well, inter alia, Johannesburg, Cape Town, Durban and Bloemfontein. This does not necessarily have to happen on the basis of a list of priorities, because I believe that a body can be appointed in each of these areas, a body consisting of representatives of the Department of Planning and the Environment, the South African Railways, the city councils, chambers of commerce, and the departments of transport economics of the local universities. A body such as this may make valuable inquiries as far as the introduction of staggered working hours are concerned and may supervise the implementation of staggered working hours.

The staggering of working hours is giving acceptance, and I want to give hon. members a single example of this. According to inquiries I made at the South African Railways, the staggering of working hours was introduced as from 1 April 1975 at the administrative sections of five departments of the Railways in Pretoria. Work commences 15 minutes earlier in the morning and stops 15 minutes earlier in the afternoon, i.e. the starting time was changed from 08h00 to 07h45 and the closing time from 16h30 to 16h15. No problems were experienced in this regard. On the contrary, a request has already been received from the staff to change these times by a further 15 minutes per day, i.e. to 07h30 and 16h00. From this one sees that the idea of staggering working hours is beginning to gain ground.

The first phase of the staggering of working hours was to involve the public sector in this matter. The second phase, which has already started, is to obtain the co-operation of the private sector. The private sector is made up of commercial and service undertakings which one naturally find in the centre of a city where the most serious traffic problems occur. I understand that the standing committee is now moving into the second phase of motivating the private sector as well, which is already showing an awareness of the need to stagger working hours. A good example of this is Bloemfontein where the awareness has already been proved by the positive steps which have been taken by the Bloemfontein City Council and the Bloemfonteinse Afrikaanse Sakekamer in connection with the possible staggering of working hours or flexitime.

I fully realize that advantages as well as disadvantages attach to staggered working hours. These, however, must be weighed up against one another, and if the advantages outweigh the disadvantages and are in the country’s interest in general, I see no reason for not introducing staggered working hours, even by means of legislation.

Mr. Chairman, the hon. member for Bloemfontein East has raised a matter which I believe the hon. the Minister could well direct his attention to. I would like to start off by extending a word of thanks on behalf of my party to the previous incumbent of the position of Minister of Planning and the Environment for the friendly, enlightened and sympathetic way in which he always treated the representations that my colleagues and I made to him.

In the second place I would like to associate myself with the words of welcome that were extended to the new Minister of Planning and the Environment and to express the hope that we will be able to work with him and co-operate with him in the interests of the country and in the interests of all the planning and environmental matters which will come before this House from time to time.

I would like to address myself to the hon. the Minister of Planning and the Environment and to make an appeal to him to assert himself right from the beginning in the face of the responsibilities that attach to the Department of Planning and the Environment. I think that in our country, as is the case in many other countries, planning and the environment has not yet been given the status, the position and the importance which it should have. In fact, planning and the environment is very often seen as an ancillary to the other activities of the country, instead of being seen as the director and the co-ordinator of all the activities within a country. I believe that the hon. the Minister will, right from the beginning, have to see to it that his department becomes the central planning authority in South Africa and as such will relate the activities of all other departments, between themselves and between them and his department, that his department will be the initiator and director of planning of the activities of this country, and that it will be the co-ordinator of those activities. Only if the planning of the environment in so far as its exploitation and conservation are concerned rests in the hands of one powerful, central and competent authority, an authority that understands all the requirements, will this department’s work be successful and will it contribute to the proper and successful planning of the future of South Africa. I believe that in South Africa today—as it is the case in virtually every other country—there is a number of far too dispersed and too fragmented authorities dealing with planning. I would just like to quote to hon. members what was stated in a document produced by the Department of Planning in commenting on the guide-plan for the Pretoria-Witwatersrand area. I quote—

In other words, we are dealing with a large number of departments—provincial, local government, Railways and all the other authorities. They all plan in isolation from each other and all want to have autonomy in respect of their own planning responsibilities. That can never lead to a successful master plan for South Africa. A successful plan for South Africa can only be achieved if the central planning authority under this Minister directs and co-ordinates all the planning and if all the other authorities associate themselves with it and only take responsibility for final detailed planning.

This hon. Minister, who is planning for the next 50 years in South Africa, is planning for a permanent apartheid society, but he will find that in the next 10, 15 or 20 years the entire South African society will undergo a fundamental and radical change and that the plan which we are drawing up within the parameters of the apartheid system, may be an unacceptable and non-viable plan for the day when South Africa achieves the ideal of a common society for all its race groups.

I now want to deal with the Pretoria-Witwatersrand-Vereeniging complex and the planning which is taking place there. I believe there is a planning disaster in the making in the Pretoria-Witwatersrand area, particularly from the point of view of the obstinacy of the Transvaal Provincial Council in the planning of the road routes with which they are now busy and in connection with which a number of reports have been published. That plan is drawn up by road engineers, taking into consideration only traffic and road criteria and without having given proper consideration to environmental, ecological and sociological factors.

Under pressure from town developers and land speculators, the province has appointed a body of people concerned with one discipline only, i.e. road transportation and road building. These people have been charged with the responsibility of drawing up a road grid for the entire Pretoria-Witwatersrand complex, and they have done so; in doing so, however, they have taken the interests of the motor car as the criteria for the basis of their plan. This plan, therefore, rests entirely on the future interests and requirements of the motor car. If that plan is accepted and carried out, it means that the other sociological and environmental factors will then be considered in terms of the road plan which will be a fait accompli, and those aspects will then not be given their proper status and consideration. No plan can be successful if one discipline dictates the plan in isolation from the other disciplines. This means that the possibility of a future mass transit system will be severely compromised by the road grid plan that is being introduced. It means that the future environmental planning of the Pretoria-Witwatersrand complex, taking into consideration proper environmental factors, will be much less viable than it would have been if the present plan had not been drawn up in isolation. It is a plan that will encourage urban sprawl rather than reduce it, a plan which means that in the future no family without two motor cars would be able to function properly, a plan that means that a mass transit system in the future will not be a viable proposition because the entire system has been planned for motor cars, a plan which means that open spaces and green belts will be so readily accessible to the motor car that those open spaces and green belts will soon suffer and be destroyed.

An area like the Pretoria-Witwatersrand-Vereeniging complex will have by the year 2000—only 50 years from the year 1970 when this plan started—5½ million White inhabitants and 7½ million Black inhabitants and large numbers of Coloured and Indian people as well. That area must consequently be thoroughly planned, but it must be planned by a multi-disciplinary team. The members of that team must work together, and equal status must be given to the urban designers, the sociologists, the economists, the ecologists, the landscape architects and the transportation engineers in order to have a cohesive plan which reflects the requirements of all these disciplines. I would therefore like to make an appeal to the hon. the Minister. One of his very first responsibilities must be to take a look at the Pretoria-Witwatersrand-Vereeniging situation and the planning that is being carried out there by a large number of different authorities. If he does not do so now, he will find that the road grid which is being planned and implemented at this stage will establish for all time the nature and direction of the development of that area. Then we are going to land up with an area like the metropolitan area of Los Angeles, a vast urban sprawl in which something like 70% of the surface area is taken up by roads and parking and in which the motor car reigns supreme and takes precedence over the lives and happiness of the people living there. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, I should like to associate myself with hon. members who conveyed their congratulations to the hon. the Minister now that he has taken over this important department. I should also like to convey my congratulations to the hon. the Deputy Minister and the Secretary of the department.

According to the department’s report for the year 1974-’75, the department has been engaged for quite a while with the drawing up of guide-plans for the development of the most important large urban complexes and growth points in the Republic. I admire and appreciate the great work which is being done in this connection. The National Physical Development Plan deserves special mention. It is a very good thing that guide-plans serve as guide-lines for future development for local and provincial authorities.

In this connection guide-plans are being drawn up for development in specific areas. In this way, during 1974-’75, a guide-plan was released for the Grasmere - Lawley - Ennerdale - Lenasia - Nancefield complex in my constituency. I think it is regrettable that the whole area up to the Johannesburg - Vereeniging main road and situated within the municipal area of Johannesburg should not have been included in that survey. Large areas within this region which is known as a controlled area and which has not yet been planned or proclaimed for a specific purpose, cause uncertainty to the owners and inhabitants. Here we are dealing with an area to the south of Johannesburg, where there is a large concentration of other population groups. Land belonging to White people there was originally earmarked for the purpose of other population groups, and open spaces are to be found everywhere in the White areas, the future of which has not yet been determined. All kinds of plans are being considered within this area, for example in respect of the development of towns and industrial development, which may later be earmarked for other purposes. The purpose of the inquiry which I have referred to, was to determine future development of residential areas for Indians and Coloureds, but only a portion of the whole was investigated. Recommendations were issued in respect of that portion alone. Within the entire region there are large areas in which various activities are taking place. Could not something be done to finalize the future of these people and regions? At the moment the people are living in uncertainty about the application of their properties in a specific direction. This results in frustration and reduced productivity. The market value of properties is also reduced as a result.

I am of the opinion that a region ought to be planned more or less as a geographical unit, and that there should not only be guide-plans for certain regions within such geographic units. What must also be emphasized here, is the question of the separation of regions. After all, group areas are a clear case of the separation of regions, and correspond with the whole policy of separate development. Since 1948 ample provision has been made to the south of Johannesburg and within the borders of my constituency for the settlement of Bantu, Indians and Coloureds. Soweto, with its more than a million inhabitants, is situated in this area, as well as Eldorado Park for Coloureds and Lenasia for Indians. Obviously, property which belonged to Whites had to be acquired for this purpose. Because these non-White areas obviously do not border on one another, open spaces belonging to Whites naturally remained in between. These are the regions which are not planned or proclaimed and of which the future utilization is hanging in the air. Promises have been made repeatedly since 1948 to the Whites in respect of borders between these group areas.

In the fifties, for instance, it was promised that the Golden Highway would remain the border between the non-White areas on the western side and the White areas on the eastern side. Then, in terms of the Group Areas Act, proclamation were issued in respect of certain areas and townships in the White area. Those towns were proclaimed White. However, it was in this area that certain regions remained as they were, as so-called controlled areas, undetermined areas or open areas. This is what I am concerned about. The future use of these areas is being questioned from time to time by suggestions on the part of bodies such as the Johannesburg City Council, which would like to acquire land to the east of the Golden Highway for the development of Coloured Areas. In the relevant report of the guide-plan committee ample provision is made for the development of Coloured and Indian areas to the west of this Golden Highway. Only last year the Johannesburg City Council made serious representations to the former Minister of Planning and the Environment for the application of the St. Martins Trust area to the east of the Golden Highway for further development for Coloured occupation. This does not correspond with the promise which was made to us that the Golden Highway would remain the border. I am aware of the fact that the hon. the Minister will tell me that a new road is being planned which will run to the east of the Golden Highway and that it seems as if the new road may possibly constitute the future border. However, I want to plead that if such ideas are being considered, the matter will soon be finalized and that the uncertain conditions in which those people are living, will come to an end. These unfortunate conditions may therefore be prevented by the timeous planning of geographical unit as a whole.

Furthermore, I want to plead that when a guide-plan committee is established in order to plan a certain region or to make recommendations for future use, the hon. the Minister will seriously consider co-opting one or two members from the local community who are owners in that area and who are living there, to serve on such a guide-plan committee and furnish the committee with first-hand knowledge. This will prevent reproaches from being made later that regional planning are forced upon the local people by the authorities.

However, I also want to refer to another matter. In the specific area to which I am referring, the Johannesburg City Council has many large farms where there are sewerage works and where the so-called purified sewerage water is used for irrigating pastures for animals. The Johannesburg City Council undertakes large scale cattle farming on those farms and the result is that the opinion of the Johannesburg City Council, as a local authority, will carry a great deal of weight with the Department as far as the planning of that area is concerned. I should like it to be borne in mind that the Johannesburg City Council has interests here which differ from that of a local authority, namely large-scale cattle farming. This may not be allowed to impede the future planning of this area.

Mr. Chairman, I want to associate myself with what was said by the hon. member for Maraisburg, especially as regards the undefined areas, as he put it. At one time I also had something to do with that area which he has known for years. These are real problems. I also want to associate myself today with the idea that the Department of Planning and the Environment be given more rights, especially as regards urban planning, and that the Department be consulted more in the matter of urban planning. It happens from time to time that cities deplore their problems after they have seen to their own planning for years. When the department wants to give them advice, they do not want to accept it. In Johannesburg especially there have been many major errors over the years, more specifically with regard to the planning of its industrial and residential areas.

In Soweto there are approximately 1,2 million people. As far back as 1962 I made a plea that the industrial areas—which were moved to Benrose and other places on the opposite side of town—should rather be established in the open spaces around Soweto. Those open, undefined spaces are still there unchanged to this day. I am referring particularly to the areas around Nancefield, and elsewhere in that vicinity. At that time the removal of those industrial areas were advocated. If one wants to speak of ideological planning, one should speak of the planning of that time. The local authorities concerned were determined at the time to retain the industrial areas in the region to the east of Johannesburg and in the vicinity of Germiston. The Government insisted on a removal of the eastern Bantu townships. This did in fact happen and Benrose and other similar areas were left without labour.

At the moment more than 250 000 workers have to be transported from Soweto, through Johannesburg, to their places of employment on the other side of town. They commute by train and this costs the State millions of rand annually. The first stage of Johannesburg’s new urban transport plan is going to cost R52 million. The second stage—only a year later—is going to cost R152 million. To make provision for just the normal increase in the traffic in Johannesburg over the next decade, will cost R700 million. As far as I am concerned, this is a task for the Department of Planning. More effective planning of the Bantu labour areas around Johannesburg is definitely essential. Bantu who are employed in the industrial area between Langlaagte and the centre of Johannesburg actually do not give rise to any problems. Some of them even travel to work from their residential areas in their own cars. Those of them who make use of the bus service, only have to take one bus. Consequently one does not find in their case a congestion and a congregation of thousands of people all trying to catch the same train or bus, which is, of course, a phenomenon giving rise to major problems. In all those industrial areas to which I am referring the buildings are certainly not very luxurious. Most of the buildings there are functional single or double-storied constructions. Therefore, it will be fairly simple to erect buildings like those in the decentralized industrial areas in the homelands. Industries which cannot be transferred from the urban area of Johannesburg for practical reasons, can easily be transferred to the open spaces around Soweto. There is room for many more industries in those open spaces to which I referred earlier on.

The roads in Johannesburg increase by between 8 and 11% annually. This means that the total road structure in the city will double within the next eight years. Money which will be spent on that will, in my opinion, be spent fruitlessly and unnecessarily. Due to the inefficient public transport service Bantu labourers have to get up very early in the morning in order to be at their places of employment in Benrose and other industrial areas in time. If such a labourer has to leave his home at 5 a.m. in order to be at his work on time at 7 a.m. it means that two full hours are lost in the process.

I wonder if the hon. member can give us any reasons why the Eastern Native Townships, which were so close to Benrose, were abolished?

The hon. member for Rosettenville must have regard to the fact that there were nothing but dwelling houses in that area. There were no facilities for Bantu there. There was no room to build schools for the Bantu. At that stage the children … [Interjections.] No, wait a moment, hon. members must bear in mind that once again it was the planning of the market and abattoir which deprived those people of their land.

It was your apartheid measures.

No, it was more effective planning, but the fact of the matter is that we cannot accept the situation as it is today. The area from Springs up to Doornfontein is ideally situated for the construction of housing for the less privileged Whites. The mine dumps which are unutilized at the moment, can be transformed into beautiful parks. Cluster housing can be built here in close units for our less privileged Whites. In this way an ideal area of the city can be used for White housing. At the moment our Whites move to the outlying areas and this means that there will always have to be more and more traffic to the centre of the city. I feel that planning in this connection may be of great value to us.

Mr. Chairman, what interests me about the suggestions which were made by the hon. member for Langlaagte is that he is pleading for a pragmatic approach to our housing situation and townships. In fact, it is quite a good UP approach. However, I want to tell the hon. member that his Government has created all these problems. But that is not all. His Deputy Minister of Bantu Administration and Development also wants to make “pendelaars” of all the Black people. He does not even want to have any Black people in the White areas and he wants to send all the Black people in the Vaal triangle to QwaQwa and have them “pendelaar” in and out every week. Therefore that hon. member ought to speak to some people in his own party and he should not come and evangelize us. [Interjections.] After all, who is going to pay for all this—it will surely not be the Johannesburg municipality.

I should like to raise an issue with the hon. the Minister which concerns my constituency in particular. We have had the declaration of a number of group areas in the Pinetown magisterial district, which, to my mind, has been very insensitively handled. In the Dassenhoek area, for instance, we have had the declaration of an Indian area while there are still almost 30 000 disqualified Black people residing in that area. The Government has planned no development or alternative housing for these people.

There are also growing Black squatter populations and Coloured squatter populations coming close to the proposed new and the existing Coloured area of Marianhill. The effect has been that the Pinetown municipality has, at its own expense, had to provide certain basic services for these people. Because it is an Indian group area and they are providing services to Blacks, they either have to do it by way of prefab houses, or they have to do it in some way so that they can write off the expense, because they may not provide permanent services for disqualified persons. For example, at St. Wendolin’s, which is a small, but growing and awful Black slum area, the Pinetown municipality has had to provide water at its own expense. The mayor of Pinetown, the municipality and its staff have done a fantastic job in motivating the service clubs, voluntary organizations in Pinetown, to try to come to the assistance of these people because the Pinetown municipality officially cannot do anything for disqualified persons. I should like to pay tribute to these people for their good work in this regard. I should also like to bring to the attention of the hon. the Minister the fact that the Marianhill monastery—which is a huge institution established in the very best traditions by German missionaries, men of diligence, pragmatism, practical wisdom and all the good points of German missionary work—has been put in limbo and has been divorced from those Black people to whom the German missionaries were called by God to serve in that area. It has now been put in a White area. I should also like to bring to the attention of the hon. the Minister the fact that he has declared Stockville a Coloured area.

If God were to create a more perfect and natural group area, with cliffs on three sides and deep valleys on which only these incredibly industrious Indian market gardeners can produce flowers and vegetables, then I do not believe he could have done better than at Stockville. It is not suitable as a housing area. The land is very steep and has three servitudes going through it, including two oil pipelines, an Escom line, and now the new six-lane highway from Durban to Pietermaritzburg will also go along the edge of it, closing the fourth side of the cliffs. I should like to ask the hon. the Minister please to consider the need for places like the Pinetown magisterial district, which is loaded with great responsibilities for people and cannot afford health services to collapse because there are Black squatters there who disqualify and who have been there for many years, and they are still creeping in. I believe there should be more liaison between the hon. the Minister and the Department of Bantu Administration and the Department of Community Development in providing alternative housing in these areas. Some sort of financial assistance ought to be given to the Pinetown Municipality. They are doing their very best. Although the people of Pinetown do not vote for the Government, they are very responsible people. Perhaps that is why they do not vote for the Government.

I should also like to raise the matter of Wyebank. I know that the hon. the Minister’s department is dealing with it. There has been a slight hitch in the form of a protest in regard to one boundary, but it is a minor matter. The very responsible Indian community of Wyebank has been waiting for years for something to be done there. I do hope the hon. the Minister can speed up the declaration of Wyebank as an Indian area so that the Indian community and the White Kloof municipality, within which it falls, can get on with the job they want to do, that is to create a modern Indian suburb there.

This year we are celebrating the 50th anniversary of the National Parks Board. As the Minister of the Environment is involved in this debate, it is, I believe, relevant to raise this matter. We all congratulate the National Parks Board on its 50 years’ existence and we wish it well for the next 50 years. In Natal, of course, we do not have the National Parks Board, but the Natal Parks Board. I believe we should pay tribute to this very excellent board. I am sure that many of the hon. members in the House have enjoyed the generous hospitality of the VIP lodges the Parks Board makes available to us. I know that the State President has often stayed there. I believe this is a most worthwhile and useful organization.

I should also like to bring to the hon. the Minister’s attention the fact that the Natal Parks Board has set standards of conservation which are very high. Indeed, I believe in their service in encouraging farmers to protect their flora and fauna and providing fish fingerlings in their dams, it has done the very best it could. The game-capture units have set the tone for our National Parks Board.

I should also like to bring to the notice of the hon. the Minister the fact that there is a commission investigating the siting of dams on the Umfolozi River. I trust the hon. the Minister is being kept informed of this matter, because the siting of these dams could seriously affect the valuable flora and the fauna and the community of white rhino which the Natal Parks Board has done so much to protect in every possible way.

Mr. Chairman, I should like to associate myself with the ideas expressed by the hon. member for Pinetown about the Natal Parks Board, and I also want to express my congratulations on their 50th anniversary, because there can be no doubt that the Natal Parks Board does excellent field and conservation work.

It is as well that we are now paying attention to the environment and I should just like to express a few ideas about this. At the beginning of this century, four out of every five people lived in a rural area. It is calculated that by the end of this century more than half of the world’s population will live in urban areas. At the beginning of this century the world’s population was approximately 1,5 milliard. Calculations show that by the end of the century this 1,5 milliard will increase to 7 milliard. Against this background it is understandable that there has been the fear that man’s existence is threatened and in addition, survival is specifically linked to the conservation of the environment. Here in our country, too, there are elements which pose a threat to the environment. Ever-increasing demands are being made on natural resources and their utilization, and when we look at the highly industrialized countries, we see that the quality of the environment there is showing visible signs of degeneration. But the increase in the pressure of population, with everything this entails, is not a matter which we can reason out of existence. Man must be fed and clothed. As a result, an increase in production and development is essential.

Every nation and every country is faced with the challenge of reconciling two apparently contradictory requirements. On the one hand we have to consider production and development, and on the other we have to consider the environment. The degree to which a Government can succeed in achieving a sound balance between these two considerations, will determine the degree to which it will be capable of ensuring the quality of its people’s lives.

Approximately four years ago the additional task of co-ordinating all the facets of environmental conservation was entrusted to this department. This is a large-scale task. Not only does this entail the conservation activities which the department handles directly, but it also has to acquaint itself with all the environmental activities of the State, semi-State bodies and the private sector to enable it to co-ordinate everything in a meaningful way.

It is my impression that the Department of Planning and the Environment has already reached an important milestone in these four years. This milestone is that it has created confidence. Its own activities, together with the activities of other State departments concerned with conservation of the environment, have created confidence among the public, among the many voluntary conservation organizations and other conservation bodies. The confidence which has been won, is due to the fact that responsible people and bodies are satisfied that the department plans not only for the highest material and social progress; they are satisfied that the conservation of the environment and the prevention of all forms of pollution are an important factor in planning.

For me, one of the most outstanding improvements brought about recently in environmental conservation is the spirit of co-operation and confidence between these departments and other Government departments on the one hand, and the various voluntary conservation bodies on the other. Whereas in the past there was sometimes inflexible confrontation and emotional standpoints were adopted, the parties now find themselves able to reach a mutual understanding of one another’s problems after calm discussion.

An excellent example of this is the case of the dune vegetation at Mapelane on the north coast of Natal. The hon. the Minister of Mines, in collaboration with the Department of Planning and the Environment, held extensive discussions there last year with all the parties concerned about the prospecting rights in the area of the dune vegetation. On that occasion representatives of the Government, provincial authorities, the Natal Parks Board and various voluntary conservation organizations were present. On the one hand the importance for the country of mineral exploitation was emphasized and on the other hand due note was taken of the point of view and misgivings expressed by the ecologists. On the surface, the groups’ interests were so conflicting that it did not seem possible for them to be reconciled; nevertheless, success was achieved. The prospecting activities were stopped and all indications are that the hon. the Minister of Mines and the mining company concerned will reach a satisfactory agreement by which it will not be necessary to cause any damage to the dune vegetation.

This particular case also had a further beneficial result. As a result of these discussions the Minister of Mines appointed a working committee consisting of representatives of the Department of Planning and the Environment, the Habitat Council and the Natal Parks Board to advise him in future about granting any prospecting or mining rights on the coast of Northern Natal.

The spirit of mutual confidence and cooperation is also reflected in the case mentioned by the hon. member for Pinetown, namely the Umfolozi River. When the possibility of a dam in this area was raised for the first time, there were soon emotional demonstrations against this suggestion. However, a committee was appointed under the guidance of the Department of Water Affairs, upon which the Department of Planning and the Environment is represented. Representatives of the Habitat Council, the Natal Parks Board and other bodies who could possibly make a positive contribution also serve on the committee. The appointment of this committee resulted in the whole matter being lifted out of the emotional sphere and all the environmental factors which could influence the building of a dam like this in the Umfolozi River, are being considered and judged on their merits. It is therefore an achievement on the part of the Department of Planning and the Environment that it could succeed in such a short while in winning the very important confidence of the private sector. The department could only succeed in this by making every effort to bring about equilibrium between development and the conservation of the environment.

Mr. Chairman, my friend, the hon. member for Eshowe, made a very good speech about a very interesting and important subject, and I am convinced that the hon. the Minister will furnish him with a comprehensive reply. Therefore he will pardon me if I do not react to his argument.

In the few minutes at my disposal I should like to draw the attention of the Committee and the hon. the Minister to the importance of a comprehensive long-term energy plan and everything that entails. When I say that this is a very important matter, I am not the original deviser of this idea, but I should like to refer to what appears in the latest annual report of the Department of Planning and the Environment in this connection. Under the heading “Energy”, paragraph 31, I read the following—

When I speak about this, I am not even being original. We have already had guide-lines in this connection in the annual report of the department. To start with, it must definitely not be thought that one wants to approach this matter from a negative point of view. On the contrary, I immediately want to say that we are very greatly indebted to the department for what it has done over the past year under review in this connection as well. I again want to turn to the annual report in which one reads about a whole series of matters which have been outlined and tabulated and which have enjoyed the attention of the department concerned. I quote again from paragraph 32—

I am referring to this so as to express at the same time appreciation for the originality of the department in having taken the initiative in this connection to make this chair possible. I am convinced that it is the work of the department which caused the private sector, too, to co-operate in this connection. We must express appreciation for this. I therefore quote from paragraph 33—

We read in paragraph 34—

In paragraph 35 we read—

Then we read in paragraph 36—

In this connection I should like to say that I have very great respect and appreciation for the fact that, despite the fact that the department is burdened with many problems—among other things a shortage of staff—it pays constant attention to the supposed assistance it receives from the public. Perhaps a good idea which could be used will after all come out of this correspondence. I now quote from paragraph 37—

Now, when one speaks about the necessity of a long-term energy policy, this does not mean that nothing has been done. On the contrary. As a result of the information which I have read out to hon. members from the annual report, one has to say that a vast amount has been done. I should like the hon. the Minister and the department to know that note has been taken of this and that it is highly appreciated. We in South Africa, although on the one hand we are very fortunate in having fairly large reserves of primary energy in the form of coal and uranium, have certain other problems. One of those problems is specifically the issue that we apparently have large reserves of coal. In the time at my disposal I shall not be able to discuss this in detail, but there was a coal commission which discovered that our coal resources are limited, and that they will have to be used very carefully in the future. The true facts are that although we produce between 67 and 70 million tons of coal annually at the moment, that production and the demand will rise to 179,7 million tons in the year 2000.

This is an immense increase which is going to set heavy demands on the coal reserves at our disposal. Those reserves are calculated at 21 425 million tons. According to the projected increase in the use of coal, our coal reserves will therefore be available to us for a little more than 100 years. In the life of the nation this is a very short period. One must also take into consideration the fact that Sasol 2 alone will consume 14 million tons annually. It is being built, so it is said, with a view to reserves of 4 000 million tons for its own use. However, it is going to use 14 million tons annually. One must also take into consideration the fact that the costs of construction of Sasol 2 will be well over R1 000 million—perhaps this is going to be a mere one third of the ultimate cost—and therefore one will have to accept that this undertaking will have to be kept in operation for at least 100 years. Therefore 20% of our coal reserves will be used by Sasol 2 alone. I mentioned the figure of 100 years. The hon. member for Carletonville, however, indicated that our actual reserves will not last longer than 60 years and it is therefore necessary for us to take a careful look at this matter.

Let us now look at uranium. South Africa possesses approximately one-fifth of the world’s economic uranium reserves. At the moment, however, South Africa is producing a third of the uranium used in the world, but at the moment we are exporting everything we produce. The energy value of the uranium we export is approximately equivalent to our total annual national energy consumption. Taking into consideration the conditions which prevail in the world, and the fact that energy is going to become even scarcer, is it in the interests of South Africa to continue to export in an unrefined form this priceless energy resource which we have at our disposal? Should South Africa not rather export energy in the form of manufactured industrial goods and raw materials? This is only one aspect of the whole matter which I should like to bring to the attention of the hon. the Minister in the hope that he will spell out the very clear guide-lines which the State intends to lay down in this connection. We need a long-term energy policy so that these priceless energy resources, which are still at our disposal at the moment and which, to a certain extent, we are recklessly squandering—and I do not want to sound alarmist now—by exporting it in forms which are of less value to us? Can we not consider whether to utilze these resources in a different way in terms of a long-term policy?

In conclusion I should like to put a question to the hon. the Minister in respect of the Magaliesburg nature reserve. The department has been attending to this very praiseworthy scheme for some time. However, how far has the department progressed as regards the proclamation of that area? Is the Transvaal province ultimately going to take the lead, and what will the ultimate fate of that area be? [Time expired.]

Business suspended at 12h45 and resumed at 14h15.

Afternoon Sitting

Mr. Chairman, I move—

I move this motion in order to afford the hon. the Prime Minister an opportunity to make a statement.

Agreed to.

House Resumed:

Mr. Speaker, I thank you for the opportunity you are affording me to make a statement. The violence and arson which have prevailed in Soweto for the past two days have spread to several other places, inter alia, to the University at Turfloop and the University of Zululand. The Police, however, are actively engaged in restoring order, and there is definitely no reason for any panic. The whole object is to cause large-scale panic in South Africa, inter alia, by spreading rumours. In this way, for example, rumours were simultaneously spread here and elsewhere—and I am merely giving this as an example—that a bomb had allegedly exploded on Johannesburg station and that 40 people had been killed. That rumour is completely untrue. It is significant, Mr. Speaker, that such a rumour started simultaneously in different parts of the country. Consequently the public must be on their guard against these and other rumours which, according to my information, will be spread on a large scale. The public is requested to attach no value to them. The public will, as frequently as is necessary, be kept informed of developments.

Besides the rumours which are being spread so deliberately and in such an organized way, the object is that panic should be sown by way of arson. I have to inform this House that the Police have been instructed, regardless of who is involved, to protect lives and property with every means at their disposal.

Unfortunately I cannot come to any other conclusion but that we are not dealing here with a spontaneous outburst, but with a deliberate attempt to bring about polarization between Whites and Blacks. Certain organizations and persons working together to achieve this, and are doing so with a view to attaining their obvious objectives. Further to what the hon. the Minister of Justice has already said, I want to issue a warning that this kind of behaviour should immediately be stopped. This Government will not be intimidated, and instructions have been given to maintain law and order at all costs. Those educational institutions at which Blacks are destroying their own amenities will be closed for an indefinite period. Mr. Speaker, if, as it would seem to me, people have the idea that the Government, in view of my intended talks, will now hesitate to act, they are making a mistake. I want to emphasize that however important those talks may be, law and order in South Africa is more important to me than anything else.

Mr. Chairman, I should like to very quickly deal with three matters. The first matter that I should like to deal with is a matter that was raised under the Mining Vote by the hon. member for Carletonville and also just before the lunch break by the hon. member for Springs when he dealt with South Africa’s known resources of coal and the urgent steps that should be taken to establish what those resources are and to what extent those resources should be utilized and exploited and to establish as to what should be done to conserve these resources. I should like to say that as far as the hon. members for Carletonville and Springs are concerned, I am in complete agreement with the sentiments that were expressed by them. The hon. member for Stilfontein, when he stated that the coal reserves of South Africa should be exploited to the maximum extent as fast as possible, I think, was thinking in the wrong direction. The need to establish South Africa’s resources, particularly as far as all nonrenewable resources are concerned, is very urgent. I have already on previous occasions made representations on this regard to the previous Minister of Planning and also to the Minister of Mines. Our country, as is the case with every other country, should as a matter of urgency and in terms of its advanced planning, establish what its non-renewable resources are and it should also establish, as far as it is possible to do so, what the life expectancy of each resource is, taking into consideration its exponential rate of consumption. I think one of the earliest responsibilities of the new Minister of Planning will be to give attention to this requirement.

Mr. Chairman, the next point I should like to raise deals with Escom and the problems that are experienced when it carries out its responsibilities under the Act viz. to provide power to local authorities and others. In my constituency we have recently been through a most unfortunate experience. In the town of Sandton, which in the very near future will be housing well over 100 000 people and which has made dramatic and spectacular provision for open spaces and recreational areas for the population that is expected by the turn of the century, Escom has planned and wanted to construct a power line which would to a large extent have destroyed the very core of that system of open spaces and recreational areas. I am referring to the river trail scheme, of which I am sure the Minister and many other members of this House have information and approve of. Here we have a dilemma. Escom, as is the case with the Railways and various other Government departments, in terms of what I believe is out-dated legislation, legislation which was drawn up when the requirements of the environment and the relationship between the various disciplines and the environment was not yet properly understood, in carrying out its responsibility to provide power to an area, can with impunity and without consideration of the real environmental recreational and sociological interests of the areas concerned, construct its power lines through areas which are reserved for recreation. I believe it is a further responsibility of this hon. Minister to take a good look immediately at the relevant Acts and the powers under which other departments operate in the planning and the construction of the services that they render, to see to it that that planning should be properly dovetailed with the requirements of his department. I believe it is the responsibility of the Department of Planning to initiate such plans and to co-ordinate and control such plans. No plans of that nature should be allowed to proceed until such time as the Department of Planning has approved of them in terms of the environmental requirements as established and to fit in with the overall master plan for the development of South Africa.

I also want to refer to another matter. That is the matter of the Magaliesberg. Some 12 months ago the previous Minister of Planning was involved in this when we had the fiasco of the Commando Neck open-cast silica mine. At the time, the public were taken by surprise by the appearance of that mine. There was very little public knowledge beforehand and, accordingly, very little opportunity of doing anything about it. We were simply faced with a fait accompli, and not even the Department of Planning, which is responsible for the preservation of the environment, had either the power or the opportunity of stopping that development. That is something which has happened and with regard to which nothing further can be done. However, when that took place, we thought that it would be a sufficiently dramatic warning that similar events would not take place again in the future. Now, only a few days ago, we learnt with shock and dismay that, at another place in the Magaliesberg, approximately 30 km to the west at a place called Castle Gorge, which is described as one of the most scenic and beautiful areas in the Magaliesberg, a further open-cast silica mine will commence operations in the very near future. It will largely destroy one of the most beautiful areas of the Magaliesberg at a time when the province is waiting impatiently for the whole Magaliesberg region to be proclaimed under the Act.

How much longer are we going to have to wait for effective action to stop this sort of thing happening? The Magaliesberg will serve as a natural recreational and beauty area for the PWV complex which by the year 2000, will have 12 million to 15 million people. Before our very eyes, one by one, the natural beauty and recreational area of the Magaliesberg are being destroyed by operations such as those I have just referred to. The operators argue that they can cover up the scars. They argue that nature areas can be created by man. It is my contention that the most beautiful nature spot created by man, cannot compare with the least beautiful nature spot created by God. I want to state emphatically that it is the responsibility of this hon. Minister to take urgent steps and to see to it that the Magaliesberg is proclaimed as soon as possible, and that no further assault on its beauty is made by organizations such as I have referred to.

Mr. Chairman, before resuming my seat earlier on, I pointed out that last year, during the discussion of this Vote, I appealed for the compilation of a guide plan with regard to the development axis—as I called it—between the metropolitan area which is developing at Saldanha Bay at the moment and the old and established urban area of Cape Town and its environs. I pointed out that all the signs of over-concentration were present in the Cape metropolitan area. I also drew attention to the fact that in this process some of South Africa’s best agricultural land was going by the board. Here I have in mind, for example, the fertile agricultural areas at Constantia, at Helderberg and along Cape Town’s old traditional line of development in the direction of Bellville, Durbanville, Paarl and Wellington.

That agricultural land is being lost in the process of development away from the old growth pattern in the Boland. I pointed out that we were evolving a guide plan in the Saldanha Bay region. Once again I want to congratulate the department on this today. The Department of Planning and the Environment has done very sound and basic work in this connection. A development axis is evolving between these two metropolitan areas. Last year I appealed to the hon. the Minister that we should compile a guide plan for this specific development axis. If I remember correctly, the hon. the Minister made the promise here that such a guide plan would in fact be compiled. In the meantime, the National Physical Development Plan, which outlines region 3 and extends it to the Blouberg region, has appeared. At the same time the department has produced the planning of the Darling subregion. In other words, the department is now creating a new region which includes Darling, Malmesbury and a certain part of the hinterland. In my humble opinion, what the department is doing in this connection is in fact quite wrong.

Mr. Chairman, owing to indisposition the hon. member for Moorreesburg is unable to complete his interesting speech.

I should like to refer to certain aspects of intra-metropolitan planning. In this connection I want to refer to the PWV region in which there are various autonomous local managements. In passing, it is a characteristic of the metropolitan area that there are various autonomous local managements in such an area. It is a fact that there is no machinery, whether at the provincial ordinance level or at the parliamentary legislative level, to ensure that autonomous local managements be compelled to co-operate with each other to produce a co-ordinated plan. Looking at metropolitan planning, it is clear that the vertical line in the hierarchy of the State, the province and the local management has in fact been determined, but there is no fixed policy as to the horizontal liaison between various local managements to determine how these people can and must liaise with each other. It is true—I am referring to the Transvaal in particular—that the ordinance on town planning leaves room for co-operation between different local authorities, but co-operation in order to bring about co-ordinated and harmonious planning is not in any way compulsory. The question is whether there is any reason for the introduction of machinery to enable planning at the horizontal level to be streamlined. In my humble opinion the answer to this is “yes”, and in the limited time at my disposal I just want to mention a few practical preventive phenomena here. I am not making an appeal for a metropolitan planning council, but I want to point out the following difficulties: For example, in its town-planning scheme, one local management zones a certain block as a residential area, specifically for “special residential purposes”; viz. only for dwelling houses. A rezoning then takes place and this “special residential purposes” changes to “general residential purposes” and consequently, in everyday language, flats may be built there. These flats are built on the border of the area of the adjoining local management. The concentration of people and of vehicles in the area of the one local management substantially affects the traffic pattern and the planning of the adjoining local management. One bottleneck is that local managements do not always reach agreement. As a result, the planning of the latter management suffers. Proper planning cannot be carried out.

A second phenomenon I want to mention is that one local management changes its road structure. For example, a third category road is converted by widening into a first category road. This, in turn, has an effect on the adjoining local management. One also finds, for example, the phenomenon that one local management builds a reservoir which cannot be used by the other local management. In this way the planning or the autonomy of one local management may be totally in conflict with and may negate or undo the planning in an adjoining management. These are file real problems with regard to the metropolitan area. The question is: What solution could one consider to rectify the position? Fortunately we are in a position to go and seek our solution overseas, where there are long-established metropolitan areas. We can find out about the problems they have had.

After having tried to seek various solutions, I found that in Australia a specific type of solution had been found for this and I should like to ask the hon. the Minister, the hon. the Deputy Minister and the department to devote attention to the solutions found. A planning court has been established there, and in our terminology we could call it a planning appeal board. A planning appeal board could fit into the South African system very easily, because we have, for example, the publications appeal board; this is a board of experts to deal with a specific hearing in a specific situation. A judge is its chairman. I just wondered whether it would not be possible to establish something of the kind in South Africa. Would it not be possible to establish a planning appeal board in the field of planning? A judge could be the chairman and assessors could be drawn from the various specialist fields such as public administration, sociology, engineering and planning itself. When one has an appeal board of this kind which is in fact capable of taking into account and attempting to solve the intra-metropolitan problem, then it is true that some advantages accrue from this, as has been found in Australia.

The first advantage is that when local managements are in disagreement among each other about possible planning, a solution may be found without delay—and I stress “without delay”, by submitting the matter to such an appeal board. The real problem in planning is speed. Where people cannot be compelled to co-operate, they consult with each other. After a period of two years has passed, the consultation has not yet been completed but the problem has grown three-fold. The problem has increased to the detriment of the general welfare of the metropolitan area. In the second place, when the final decision is given by a judicial or semi-judicial body, there is certainty as regards planning. People can then say that they know how to plan. For example, they can say that the widening of a road is not permissible or that a rezoning to cause high density is not permissible.

When a board has issued its finding, two important advantages are involved. The first is that the public has confidence, because it has been a hearing by people who command respect. The people who issue a final decision on a dispute between public bodies will Command respect. The Townships Board cannot meet this need because this has not been written into the ordinance. An important side effect is that the public will really begin to take an interest in the planning that takes place, because the findings of such a council must be made public. In this way the final decision can, in my humble opinion, be taken without delay, and harmonious and coordinated intra-metropolitan planning can take place far more rapidly. An ordinary supreme court cannot take such a decision, because it is bound by legal principles and precedents, but when one has an expert body analogous to the publications appeal board, then town planning principles are implemented and a decision is reached in terms of social rules or norms.

In the circumstances since we still have young metropolitan areas whose problems are not yet established, I want to make a strong recommendation to the department and the hon. the Minister that very serious attention be devoted to the establishment of such a body which could solve intra-metropolitan problems. We must not forget that we are working with autonomous local bodies which are slow to give up their autonomy for the sake for the metropolitan area as a whole. I want to put it that the time may be ripe for us to give serious attention to this. But it would not only be of importance in the intra-metropolitan areas, because since we have various regions, when establishing a major development project there could also be competition between regions which would have to decide where the development should take place. The department can decide, but I want to put it that the public would be far more satisfied if a decision were to come from an independent quasijudicial body. My plea, then, is that the possibility of such a body be investigated. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, I hope the hon. member for Pretoria West will forgive me if I do not react on his speech because my time is very restricted and I have a specific point which I want to raise with the hon. the Minister. I have already raised it on occasion with his department but I have not yet had a satisfactory answer. In fact, the very dilatory manner in which my representations have been received has made me very suspicious indeed.

This matter concerns an attempt made to establish a holiday resort for the Indian community on the farm Buffelspruit No. 443KR in the district of Warm Baths in the Transvaal. The start of the story goes back to 1969 when the first application was made to the department. That application was lost, but a further letter of application for the establishment of this resort explaining fully the circumstances was forwarded to the hon. the Minister and an acknowledgment dated 23 March 1971 was received by the applicant. This was the first chapter in a chain of most extraordinary events and from what I have been told this has involved the most unbelievable bureaucratic inefficiency and bungling that I have heard of for a long time. I hope it goes no further than that, Sir. I requested the department to investigate it but I have not had the courtesy of an answer. In the first instance the applicant made approaches to sundry central Government and provincial bodies and to the town council of Warmbaths. All of these people have at one time or another been involved. I would like in the very brief time at my disposal to chronicle some of the events which have taken place.

In a letter dated 1 April 1971 the department wrote to the applicant advising her to approach the Department of Local Government of the Transvaal Provincial Administration and also to have a scale plan of the proposed resort drawn up. The survey was done at considerable expense—I believe it cost in excess of R10 000—and the applicant complied with the request for a scale plan. She has been involved in considerable expense over a long period involving options on other farms and other things like that. In fact, thousands of rand were involved. During 1971 this application was commented upon and has passed through the hands of, for example, the Transvaal Peri-urban Areas Board, the Department of Local Government of the Transvaal Provincial Administration, the Town Council of Warmbad and the Transvaal Roads Department. Approaches have been made to the Department of Indian Affairs, and I believe the hon. the Minister unofficially approved of the scheme and the Department of Tourism was also approached in regard to the proposal. At one stage, during May 1973, the department turned the application down with absolutely no reasons being given. However, the matter was reopened during September 1973 as the result of a Press statement made by the former Minister of Planning giving details of a Cabinet decision that the development of holiday resorts for Indians and Coloureds would be allowed under certain circumstances. At a meeting on 12 August 1974 the Peri-urban Areas Board indicated that provided certain conditions were met, which the applicant was quite prepared to do, they had no objection to the establishment of the resort. I am told in discussions with various officials in various departments that the applicant was encouraged to believe that the application would be accepted. There unfortunately appears to be one very large fly in the ointment. Objections were alleged to have been lodged by people in high places, according to reports which appeared in the Press, including an objection by a company which has on its board of directors an individual who I am know told is an official of the Department of Planning and the Environment. The objections lodged by the gentleman, who became the neighbour of the applicant during 1974, seems to have resulted in the application being rejected. This company, incidentally, appears to be building a holiday resort of its own without any of its neighbours even being given the right to object. The whole question was raised in the Transvaal Provincial Council by my colleague, Dr. Browde, but she was unable to obtain satisfactory answers from the MEC in charge of local government in the Transvaal.

What I would like to know is the following and I would like to ask the hon. the Minister to reply very specifically to these questions: Firstly, whether his department is in favour of the principle of the establishment of private resorts for Indians; secondly, the reasons for the second refusal of the application and whether or not representations were made against the application and who made those applications, and thirdly, why the Peri-urban Areas Board was overruled in this matter. I am unable to comment on the merits of the case, but in view of the fact that the department has not seen it fit to answer my earlier queries and that the matter has been raised in the Press, I have no alternative, but to raise it publicly with the hon. the Minister.

I would like to say at this stage that the whole thing in my opinion smells. Many allegations have been made, and these include suggestions of undue influence being exerted on both the Administrator of the Transvaal and the Department of Planning and the Environment itself. I want to give hon. members an example. I am not commenting on the truth thereof, but I believe in all courtesy it deserves an answer. I have been told that relatives of a senior official of the department made representations to the Administrator on behalf of certain private objectors and I have also been told that family connections in the Department of Planning and the Environment have been used and have been involved in the whole affair. I hope that this is not so, because there is a very unpleasant sound to it. I believe that the hon. the Minister must answer my three questions very explicitly and in detail. One dislikes having to raise this sort of thing in the House and I had hoped that I could do it privately. The official with whom I raised the matter will remember that I had said that I was not interested in making a public performance of this. But I have now been forced into this situation. The matter has even escalated as far as the Press. In the circumstances I think that the hon. the Minister must make a statement on the matter.

Mr. Chairman, I am not going to reply to the hon. member’s questions, for he addressed the questions directly to the hon. the Minister, who will reply to them in due course.

I want to begin by expressing my sincere thanks to the hon. members who addressed a word of welcome to me—the Minister will speak for himself—and to the Secretary of the department. I think I am speaking on behalf of the new Secretary as well in saying that we are grateful for the spirit in which this was done.

I was glad to learn of the esteem in which the department is held. Before taking up this post, I became aware of the fact that the department had been engaged in an enormous task over the years and I recalled with some satisfaction that my maiden speech in this House 10 years ago had been in connection with the work of the Department of Planning. At that time I quoted something which had been said by a scholar in America, speaking about the problems of present-day rulers: “They have to cope with the problem of growth and decay. ” This is probably the main task of this department. We have always believed that it is the task of the department to undertake proper exploitation and conservation in co-operation with other departments, exploitation of our resources and conservation of the scenic beauty we have to preserve. I think the hon. member for Sandton referred to these activities as conservation and exploitation.

I am glad to see that an example has been set in far-off Western Transvaal by a regional development committee which has begun this kind of work in order to assist the department in implementing these objectives. The hon. member for Schweizer-Reneke made several interesting suggestions and I think one of the matters of which we must very definitely take cognizance—and this is connected with what was said by the hon. member for Eshowe and by other hon. members as well, perhaps with more emphasis by the hon. member for Pretoria West at the end of his speech—is that in this country, which is going to develop into separate fatherlands, if the NP policy succeeds—and I have no doubt that it will succeed—planning will not only take place on a local level, but will be carried to the regional level, to the provincial level where this is practicable, and to the national level, where we shall develop it further so that an early start can be made with what was mentioned by the hon. member for Schweizer-Reneke, namely a kind of territorial planning.

This is not a vision of the distant future; these things are just around the comer and lengthy planning is required before one is able to conclude agreements of this kind with other countries which have obtained full autonomy. These are useful suggestions, but I think we would do well to start with the basics, and we have not begun to implement the work of all the regional planning advisory committees. The only one, in reply to what the hon. member said, is the one in the Western Transvaal, and we intend to have another five of them before the end of the year. These societies must first show where mistakes are being made, so that we can eliminate the mistakes and improve the planning in the future. Having said this, I think that I have stated the fundamental standpoint of the Government to hon. members, and that is that the Department of Planning is not a super-department which is able to dictate to other departments and which is going to exercise a kind of authoritarian power over provinces and local authorities and other bodies. South Africa has always been governed on the local government level, in its welfare work and in other spheres as well, in accordance with true democracy; from the people, for the people, by the people. It would be a tragic day if we were to accept the suggestion made by the hon. member for Sandton. I hope he did not mean it that way, that this department should be able to intervene at the beginning and to put a stop to things and to take arbitrary decisions on things. This department must never become a department which forces other departments to comply with its wishes. This department must not do its work through legislation alone. This department will be able to achieve the highest objectives and results if it performs its work through constant consultation in co-operation with local authorities, with regional planning committees and with other people who take a sincere interest in the tasks which have been entrusted to the department.

I therefore welcome the suggestions that have come from various quarters, and here I refer to those made by the hon. member for Benoni as well. He pointed out what our broad objectives should be. The nation as a whole should be more and more involved in this whole action. Consequently I am glad to be able to say that the ordinary authorities of our country are wanting to be more and more involved in this action.

I shall reply to some of the questions only; the hon. the Minister will reply to the rest. It is not so easy to do these things the way we intend to do them eventually. There is an easier way, and now I address myself with all respect to my friend, the hon. member for Pretoria West. I do not think we should establish an appeal board for hearing cases of this kind at this stage. He made useful suggestions which we shall certainly be able to utilize, but I do not think we have come to that stage yet in South Africa. I think we should rather work in the direction of constant consultation between departments and between various authorities, so that everyone will agree to the establishment of such an appeal court, which the hon. member had in mind, and which I think can eventually succeed.

Let us look now at the practical side of this matter. We are dealing here with a department which has to look after the interests of various people to the best of its ability. We have just had an unpleasant accusation here which can so easily be made. I shall not go into the merit of that accusation at this stage. Sometimes it may be substantiated, for in any community there are people who make mistakes. Until it has been proved against this department, however, I cannot accept that it is true. The accusation is made here that people have been influenced to take certain decisions by means of force, bribery or whatever other means. I concede that the danger exists in such a department that something of this nature may happen, but what is one to do? We have listened here to a speech made by the hon. member for Maraisburg. It was an excellent speech on behalf of his constituency. He stated his case in a calm and collected manner and indicated how certain voters felt. However, how does one deal with this kind of matter? It is true that there are individuals whose interests are affected if the value of certain areas is enhanced. When an ordinary residential plot is changed into an industrial plot, the value of that plot is enhanced. The opposite may also happen, of course. If a property borders on a big Bantu residential area—and before any political motives are read into this, I just want to say that this statement has no racist overtones—the value of that land is immediately lowered. This is just the way things are. What do we do now? We must be led by considerations which are in the best interests of the public as a whole and of the country as a whole. For example, I should like all electric cables to be laid underground.

†This brings me to the hon. member for Sandton. I can assure him that at this very moment we are trying to convince Escom that they should go about matters in another way, and here I am referring to those transmission lines they are putting through Sandton. With all due respect, however, if the people in Johannesburg and Soweto need electricity, why should we by-pass Sandton? Why should the lines go over Bryanston? Why should it be put through another area? It is all very well for one to decide that one would rather have this in another person’s constituency. This reminds me of the old saying: “People want their Native labourers as long as the bus stop is not in front of their door but rather in front of their neighbour’s door.” And what if it does pass through Sandton or the eastern areas? Why should it be done in such a way that it affects other people and not the people who are now complaining? There will always be people who are complaining, with justification perhaps, but we have to consider on merit, what should be done and decide in the interests of the majority of the people who are concerned in this whole matter.

Order! The hon. the Deputy Minister’s time has expired.

Mr. Chairman, I rise merely to give the hon. the Deputy Minister a chance to conclude his speech.

Mr. Chairman, I thank the hon. member. As I have said, the hon. member for Bryanston referred to the question of the planning of the PWV complex. I really believe that this matter should now be discussed without using such extravagant terminology as we have become accustomed to hear from some members of the PRP. Why is it necessary for the hon. member, in speaking of Escom, for example, to say: “They have been doing things with impunity”? When the Magaliesberg is being discussed, is it necessary to speak of a “fiasco” or of “shock and dismay”? Is it necessary to use all these extreme words? One would think the world was coming to an end. What is also strange is that these things are not said here in this House only. I read them in The Star in Pretoria as well. Recently there was a report on Castle Gorge, for example. I have not been there. I assume that it is a beautiful place. Has the hon. member for Bryanston been there?

Yes.

I have not been there yet, because I did not know that it was going to be destroyed. However, Sir, we are dealing with people who own properties. May I ask the hon. member a straightforward question in this connection? If it had been your property, and if it had contained rich gold deposits, would you not have asked for compensation to be paid, in view of the fact that you have to look after your family, for example, even if it were the most beautiful place? Is it not right for the people who own that property to be heard when they ask for compensation? Are we just to sit back and say that the Government should buy out Castle Gorge? Does the hon. member wish to suggest that although it may be the richest gold mine in the world, we should buy it out because it is beautiful? Sir, I should like to do that. Obviously, we are all in favour of nature conservation. I am grateful for what is done by the Habitat Council and other people. We shall assist them as far as it is practicable for us to do so. However, we must think of these matters in practical terms as well.

The hon. member also referred to the planning of roads in the PWV complex, and once again he used extravagant language. He spoke, for example, of “speculators and motor cars”. Sir, has the word “speculator” become a swear word? I think our attempts are precisely directed at eliminating speculation. However, is it so terrible for the hon. member for Maraisburg to point out to us that there are people whose properties are affected? Is it so terrible for him to say that they should not live in uncertainty and that they should at least be consulted and compensated? Surely one has a duty to the individual who is affected. These people are not speculators in the first place. There are people who have been owning land there for years. Now a road is being planned across it, or the land is being fragmented for other reasons. When those people come to you with valid complaints, surely you must listen to what they have to say. Surely it is only reasonable to listen to people who have approached you in a reasonable spirit.

The hon. members for Pinetown and South Coast raised a valid question in a calm manner, asking why no finality was being reached in respect of the planning of certain Indian and Coloured areas. I am sorry about delays, but when one is dealing with the removal of people, as we are here in the case of the Coloured people and the Indians, one must go about it with the greatest circumspection. Hon. members often say—and rightly—that it is no easy task to remove people. One does not like to cause disruption. Therefore it lasts a little longer. One tries to do it with compassion and with proper consultation and one tries to consider all the circumstances. Then it is not necessary either for people’s good faith to be questioned every time.

Sir, I do not want to drag in an irrelevant topic, but I said by way of interjection in a debate last year, as the present Minister also said in respect of a 50 - 50 language basis of instruction for the Blacks—and people who wish to be honest may look this up in Hansard—that we would see to it that this language medium was not forced upon people. Last night, the leader of a party stood up here and told the world that I had said in an arrogant and domineering way that I had decided upon such a thing. The words are there, but they are not in their context. Surely one need not always wrest these things from their context in order to accuse other people of bad faith. The same applies in this connection. If this department undertakes investigations in a completely objective way, why must this kind of extreme language be used every time, casting doubt upon our good faith?

It has been suggested that we co-opt owners to these advisory committees. This suggestion was made by the hon. member for Schweizer-Reneke, but our point has precisely been that people should not represent their own interests on a council. A principle which is applicable to local authorities should be applicable here as well.

†If a man has an interest in a decision which is to be taken, he has to recuse himself from the meeting. That is only fair and just.

*For this reason we cannot accept that suggestion. We must be able to decide objectively about these matters. The hon. member for Zululand referred to the conservation of natural resources and the hon. member for Springs made his contribution on the Magaliesberg, for which I thank him. I can give him the assurance that we have the co-operation of the Transvaal Provincial Administration and that we are negotiating with other bodies about the Magaliesberg, just as we are about the Zululand coastal areas, to obtain people’s co-operation in preserving the beauty of our natural environment.

†Mr. Chairman, those people who own properties and who want to exploit the riches of those properties are not necessarily as bad as we sometimes think they are. They have the fullest right to exploit what can be obtained from their properties. We have, however, found that when we negotiate with people we always get the fullest co-operation and sympathy of the people of South Africa. We intend carrying on in that way. We intend carrying on in that way with the Sandy Bay complex and with other items which are brought to our notice.

*We shall continue, Mr. Chairman, to achieve success in the activities of this department by means of persuasion rather than legislation. For this, however, we need the assistance of all the members of this House, and of people who may be influenced by members of this House.

Please allow me two final remarks. The first is a general remark, because it is a matter which has been discussed in general. In the first place, I want to make a statement in regard to littering, which has become a major problem and which is creating a nuisance for our farming community as well. We may be able to introduce legislation next year which will exercise proper control over littering, including derelict vehicles. I hope that we shall obtain the co-operation of all parties. I am able to state that the CSIR and private parties have helped us in connection with beer containers, cartons which give rise to complaints, and other things. We hope to achieve finality on these things by next year’s session.

My second remark is also a general one. We are engaged in proper planning in connection with a problem we are going to encounter more and more in South Africa, namely pollution, including littering. However, there is a new form of pollution which is assuming every greater proportions in the world today—and here I am speaking in particular of something which has recently been proved and which is accepted all over the world to have a tremendous effect on the human spirit and health, namely the noise factor. Hon. members know that there is a noise zone at Jan Smuts Airport. This is a factor which can become so bad that Los Angeles in the United States of America has wanted to make over its assets just in order to pay compensation to people who have laid claims on the grounds of damage suffered by them as a result of noise. Phenomena of this kind, which are becoming more and more common in a rapidly developing world, will require a great deal of attention from this department in the years to come. There are so many matters in this department in which we can co-operate in order to get positive suggestions that I now address an invitation again to members of the Opposition and especially to members of the governing party always to approach us with positive suggestions in order to facilitate as far as possible the task of the Department of Planning and the Environment, the department which has to undertake conservation and exploitation, for the sake of the children of South Africa, including those who are still to come.

I shall reply in writing to the questions I have not been able to answer today. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, I want to talk about the defacement of our mountains, mountains which have become recreational areas for thousands of campers, mountaineers and also nature lovers, not only from South Africa, but also from overseas. Many people come to this country to climb our beautiful mountains and to get a closer look at our interesting flora and fauna. One need only drive up Du Toit’s Kloof or Sir Lowry’s Pass to observe the unsightly scars left by the so-called disciples of progress in various places along the mountainside. Alien vegetation is taking over and erosion is rife, particularly in the Western Cape, and I believe that the various authorities should be coordinated by the Department of Planning in order to attend to some of the problems in this connection. I know that many authorities are responsible, for example the Department of Forestry which is in charge of vast areas of high mountains. The Department of Agriculture, in particular, has to carry out the task of combating alien vegetation. We all know about the building of a tunnel which is in progress in Du Toit’s Kloof, and we also know that roadbuilding is being undertaken there under the auspices of the National Transport Commission. Power-lines and pylons are marching up and down mountain slopes, something which is the responsibility of Escom and the Department of Economic Affairs. Water canals and pipelines have been constructed all over the countryside and along the mountain slopes. That falls under the jurisdication of the Department of Water Affairs, Escom and the various municipalities.

I believe that the Department of Planning is the only body that can deal with this problem in an adequate manner. I know it is an enormous task, but I believe that something can be done particularly if the hon. the Minister of Planning would insist on it that areas which are scarred be restored again and that grass and indigenous vegetation be replaced in places where it was annihilated. This is being done in overseas countries. It has already been done here to a limited extent, and I believe that this should actually be a prerequisite before any major enterprise is undertaken.

One only has to look at the patchy condition of Table Mountain to realize what utter lack of correlation and co-operation exists among the various controlling bodies of that one single entity, Table Mountain. I believe that the mountain falls under seven different controlling bodies. That is obvious from the scruffy appearance of the mountain. Meanwhile, it is one of our finest and grandest national monuments, the pride of all South Africans. We simply cannot allow this state of affairs to continue as it has in the past. I believe Table Mountain should be placed under the jurisdiction of one single board of control, for example the Cape Provincial Department of Nature Conservation or the National Parks Board. I also believe that the alien vegetation on Table Mountain should be combated and replaced with the wonderful indigenous flora of the Cape, like the beautiful protea. Furthermore, the alien there should be replaced with genuine South African antelope; another feature for which this country has become famous.

There are other magnificent mountains in South Africa which are also being threatened by population pressures. One that has already been mentioned here, is the Magaliesberg. I really believe that the time has come that attention should be given to the protection of that great mountain. We have had several reports—from the Transvaal Mountain Club and from the provincial council—in which it was asked that the Magaliesberg be preserved. The reports were compiled, not by way of criticism, but because the people who compiled them, love the Magaliesberg. They spend weekends there, climbing the mountain and enjoying the wonderful amenities provided by nature. This is the kind of attitude we should like to promote amongst the population of South Africa, the desire to enjoy and appreciate the wonderful benefits we find in our beautiful natural areas in South Africa. It has been mentioned here that the mountain is being threatened with population pressure, the urban sprawl and mining operations. There was a mine at Kommando Nek which, to my mind, has been adequately attended to following recommendations made by landscape planners and architects to remove the scars left behind, and I am sure the situation will improve soon. Where there are mines, I believe the Department of Planning should insist, as an imperative, that the Department of Mines must require that the damage be made good during and after mining operations. I believe this has been done to a certain extent, but not sufficiently so, because one sees too much of it. I think it should be a prerequisite that landscape architects and ecologists should be called in to minimize the impact of the damage to the environment in places where mining is an existing operation. I also want to object to further mining and quarrying on the Magaliesberg. I believe that unless it is of strategic and economic importance for the country as a whole one should not allow quarrying and mining operations of this nature to proliferate, as is the case in some areas. I think all of us will accept the situation where it is to South Africa’s strategic and economic benefit that one should make a compromise and allow mining of this nature. Once again, one must minimize the impact and damage done by mining operations of this nature. I know the Department of Planning is concerned about it and I should like to say that we support them in what they are doing in this regard. We should like to see them taking sounder measures in order to control this kind of proliferation. I know about the application for additional rights to mine silica sand for glass. I believe this glass sand is intended for export. I would like to be assured that a very careful study is being made before giving mining companies of this nature permission to operate in exceptionally beautiful areas like the Magaliesberg.

It has been mentioned that this particular operation will take place in the Castle Gorge, which has the old Voortrekker wagon trail running through it. It is a particularly beautiful area right in the middle of the Magaliesberg and hundreds of mountaineers and nature-lovers would like to see that area preserved in its original beauty. We know that the pressure will mount and particularly in the Witwatersrand, Pretoria and Vereeniging area there is an enormous demand for additional land and places to be made available so that quarries and mines can be established. However, there is also an equal demand for recreational areas, particularly on the Witwatersrand. I believe that the Magaliesberg is ideally suited for this purpose. I do not know of any place in that area which has better merit for this particular purpose. I would personally like to see that the whole Magaliesberg range—in particular the crest running from Pretoria to Rustenburg—should urgently be preserved as a nature area under section 4(1) of the Physical Planning and Utilization of Resources Act which entitles it to preserve that area as a nature area. We can then be assured that the kind of development which will take place there, will be under control and in keeping with the character of the area. Some people are extremely worried about the environment of Die Moot and the lower slopes of the Magaliesberg. It is a particularly interesting landscape historically; in fact, it goes right back to prehistoric times and one can see old stone-age native village sites, which should still be excavated and which certainly deserves preservation. Anyone who knows the area will really get to love and appreciate the advantages of maintaining this particular landscape. I believe more provision should be made to protect landscapes, old houses and whole environments in their original context. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, the speech made by the hon. member for Benoni will certainly have the support of every hon. member in the House, to whatever political party he may belong. Last year I spoke about the preservation of Table Mountain. However, one realizes that the people of South Africa can only appreciate the mountains and our natural assets if they all learn to know them. A few years ago I made an appeal in the House for the mountains of the Boland to be converted into a “Kruger National Park” in this recreational area of this part of South Africa so that everyone, at a very early age, not only the White children but the Brown children, too, and others who share this part of the country with us, may be taken there. Adequate provision must be made for them to be able to relax there and learn to know nature so that eventually they can help to preserve lovingly this great asset of ours. In this regard I therefore associate myself with the speech by the hon. member, and I hope that the matter will enjoy the support of the department and the Government.

This afternoon I want to discuss the work of the Council for Scientific and Industrial Research. Hon. members are aware that the budget of the department amounts to R51,5 million this year. The contribution to the CSIR alone is R28,1 million. Therefore, about 56% of the funds of the department go to this important council. This serves to emphasize the central position which this important body occupies in South Africa. We should not have had the South Africa of today if this body had not come into being in 1945. It is difficult to depict the comprehensive activities of the CSIR. One can only do so if one bears in mind that at this stage this body has an establishment of about 4 500 posts of which about 50% are occupied by scientists, highly trained people with wide experience. 4 500 people is almost the population of a medium-sized town. However, the difference is that the town would consist solely of the finest manpower any country could hope to have.

This council came into being because after the Second World War it was realized that in the course of its development, South Africa had entered a new era, an era in which South Africa would have to develop into an industrial country in which the manufacturing sector in particular would have to come into its own. It was realized that without this centralized research it would simply be impossible to bring industries in South Africa up to world level. It would be impossible for our industries to be competitive on world markets if they did not possess the finest technical skills. We can say, therefore, that over the past 30 years the scientists of the CSIR have played an enormous role in creating the South Africa of today as we know it.

When one considers the amounts which the Government votes every year to expand the activities of this council, one realizes that over the next 25 to 30 years—in other words, at about the time of the approaching turn of the century—the council will have to play an even greater role than it has been able to play up to now. Thus far only the foundations have been laid of a vast structure which must be established in order to make South Africa one of the foremost industrial countries of the world.

However, the question occurs as to whether this is the only role which the CSIR has to play. Is its role confined solely to performing this great function in our fatherland? When I consider our own future in Southern Africa, then a picture rises before me of a highly developed industrial country surrounded by a number of developing countries which will arise in and around South Africa. In this very year, 1976, the Transkei will come into being as a new independent State. On our borders are countries with which we already have close relations, and to the north of us are those countries with whom the hon. the Prime Minister and others are attempting to forge closer links in every sphere so that a community of nations may develop. I believe that in this very respect the CSIR can play a role of the greatest importance by crossing South Africa’s borders.

Science knows no frontiers. Scientists throughout the world recognize each other as being in the service of mankind. I was in Jerusalem last year, and an interview was arranged for me with the chief scientific adviser of the Israeli Government. The first names he mentioned were those of well-known scientists in South Africa, names like Dr. Roux, Dr. Meiring Naudé and others who are household names to us. It is on occasions like that that one realizes how widely the bonds of friendship extend throughout the globe. To me, this in itself illustrates a very elementary truth, viz. that other countries cannot play this role in Southern Africa which South Africa can play in this very respect. I believe that if the more than 2 000 scientists gathered in Pretoria were to be set the challenge to forge bonds of friendship with other countries surrounding us and those which will arise on our own borders, they would tackle this task with a will, and that whereas at present we only have CSIR liaison offices in Washington, London, Bonn, Paris and recently in Teheran as well, liaison offices would also be established in Umtata, Nairobi and other places so that in time, South Africa would not only draw knowledge from elsewhere for the development of South Africa, but would also be in a position to convey knowledge outwards to the developing states in Southern Africa.

In this very respect we are better placed than any other country, because our scientists know the problems of this subcontinent better than do the scientists of any other country. The conditions with regard to nature and otherwise are virtually the same. The problems we have to deal with in the oceans and in every other respect are in many ways the same. That is why we already have here a storehouse of knowledge, knowledge which can simply be conveyed and may be put at the disposal of these countries.

But in my opinion the CSIR can go further than that. In the same way as it decentralizes its activities and does not operate in Pretoria alone, but carries out oceanographic research in other parts of the country too, and concentrates its medical research close to here in the neighbourhood of Parow, I think the time could come for the CSIR, as the instrument of a community of nations, to initiate projects in many countries in Southern Africa which would result not only in the distribution of the knowledge already gathered here but also the training in situ of the scientific manpower of those countries. That is why I want to ask that not only scientists of high standing from the Western world should be invited by the CSIR to come to South Africa but that there should also be an open invitation to all the universities and all the scientists already working at universities from Zaïre throughout Southern Africa, so that they, too, may regard the CSIR as their spiritual home, a place where they have a spiritual refuge to which they can come in order to acquire knowledge and supplement each other’s knowledge. I believe that this could still become one of the shining keys which will open doors for us on the road to peace.

Mr. Chairman, as one who is deeply concerned and constantly worried about the disturbing increase in the Bantu population in our great urban and industrial complexes, I should like to raise this very topical matter again today under the Vote of the Minister of Planning and the Environment. It is on record that I have referred to this on a number of occasions and expressed my concern in this connection, but I do not have the time to quote from Hansard. I shall let a single quotation from Hansard suffice, viz. Hansard, 1976, weekly edition No. 11, col. 4781, in accordance with which I said on 7 April—

This would create an illogical and unnatural imbalance in population figures. It is unnecessary to refer again to the vast numbers.

If the increase in our urban non-White population, specifically the urban Bantu population, resulting from the high population increase and the growing demand for labour, cannot be checked by instituting a vast, mighty and united effort to bring about resettlement in the homelands, then by the year 2000 it is calculated that there will be about 18 million, and by the year 2020, between 28 and 30 million Bantu living in our White homeland. They may, due to their foreign citizenship, be regarded technically as foreigners, but they will be among us here, with their ideals, but also with their frustrations and sometimes their militant action, confined in the limited space of the major urban residential areas. They will be unable to realize their national ideals within our multi-national set-up and within the policy of separate development, however accommodating we may be. The frustrations and tensions will increase in proportion as their numbers grow, and the events taking place now are to me a clear pointer to what may be repeated in the future to an increasing degree.

This is not merely a problem for the employers in our industrial areas or for city councils, Bantu Affairs administration boards, or the Department of Bantu Administration and Development; it is a matter of national scope which must be approached at a high level and in respect of which purposeful planning must be carried out. In my humble opinion this is a great new task which must be tackled by this very department which, through overall planning and co-ordination with the Department of Bantu Administration and Development and with the Departments of Labour, Mining, Trade and Industries and Community Development, ought to carry out a penetrating investigation, in all earnest, into this situation and come up with a very realistic plan to combat the increasing imbalance between White and Black in the White urban areas. I do not have the time to repeat the suggestions I made to this House during a previous debate, but I just want to dwell on one of them. This is on record in Hansard—the edition to which I referred before. I quote from col. 4784—

Labour may only be recruited within specific and appropriate areas for specific industrial areas and growth points. I quote further—

I was very impressed by the map illustrating the National Physical Development Plan of the Department of Planning and the Environment in the well-known red book of 1975. Growth poles and development axes from the over-industrialized areas with clear guide lines to growth points which had to be created throughout the country have been indicated in an imaginative way. Here we have the basis of the plan which must be evolved for this problem as well. All that is necessary is that the emphasis in this case be laid on the resettlement of people instead of on industrial decentralization, without, however, ignoring the latter. The guide-lines or axes must start in the same industrial centres but be so adjusted as to radiate towards the homeland nearest to each industrial area. In other words, they must radiate towards the homeland instead of just to the growth points as indicated in the guidelines of the planning sketch or map of the red book. The routes, or the starting points, should be the Sowetos, the Orlandos, the Vlakfonteins, the Alexandras, and so on. The poles should be developed traffic routes, roads, railways, which must be geared to serve the urban labourer almost exclusively and to convey him on a daily, weekly and even monthly basis to his family and his homeland and back to his work. There are Whites today who in some cases drive up to 100 miles and more daily to their work and back. With modern road building and rapid transport techniques, it should be possible to convey large numbers of workers to and fro in this way while their families live in the homelands and they themselves are comfortably housed in hostels or offer their labour on the commuter system. On the basis of these recommendations and those I have made on previous occasions, namely my idea as regards zoning of areas for labour recruiting for specific industrial centres, my idea for large-scale transport arteries to the homelands geared chiefly to Bantu transport, and in addition, intensified establishment of border industries and the strict implementation of the Physical Planning Act, it ought to be possible to bring about a turning point; this I believe.

In my opinion this is a positive idea which must receive the attention of the Department of Planning as an urgent new task. It will require knowledge and courage, and also penetrating and fundamental thinking; it will require billions of rands, but it will be worth the trouble and over the long term it will cost less than the millions we are spending on defence to avert the threat of Black forces of evil from beyond our borders. This Black population pressure, this preponderance of Black numbers within our borders, can eventually have the same results as those we want to avert by means of our defence force. It could be a long-drawn-out process or a delayed action, but the final result will be the same: as bloodless as against a bloody take-over of the political power of the White man in his own country; both threats must be averted through equally purposeful dedication and planning and in this regard the Department of Planning must take the lead.

Mr. Chairman, I should like to say at the outset that this has been a most interesting debate for me at the beginning of my term of office as Minister of Planning and the Environment and of Statistics. There are certain duties I have to attend to before I can reply to the debate. Firstly, I want to express my sincere thanks to all hon. members for the good wishes conveyed to me, as well as to those officials who are new and to those who are no longer with us. I feel I must single out certain officials and furnish some particulars about them. Of these, two are not present here today. In the first place, there is Dr. P. S. Rautenbach, the previous Secretary, to whom I want to express great appreciation for the work he has done in the past and to whom our department wants to express its appreciation. Dr. Rautenbach holds the B.Com., M.Com. and D.Com. degrees, which he obtained at the University of Pretoria. He started his career in the Public Service in 1957, in the Department of Native Affairs. In 1960 he became director of the Natural Resources Development Council in the then Department of Commerce and Industries. In August 1964, he came over to the Department of Planning and the Environment, initially as Chief Director of Physical Planning. In September 1970 he became Secretary to the department. He occupied that post until 31 January this year, when he was transferred to become a member of the Public Service Commission. Dr. Rautenbach has also been chairman of the Planning Advisory Council of the Prime Minister, member of the Economic Advisory Council and the Scientific Advisory Council, and member of the Council for Scientific and Industrial Research. In addition, Dr. Rautenbach is an honorary professor of planning at the University of Stellenbosch and the University of Potchefstroom. In 1961, the Eisenhower Exchange Fellowship was awarded to him.

Now I come to Mr. P. J. V. E. Pretorius, whom hon. members may also see here later. Mr. Pretorius is the new chairman of the Planning Advisory Board and planning adviser to the Prime Minister. Mr. Pretorius obtained the degrees of B.A. (Law) at Unisa, B.A. Honours in Political Science, and did an M. A. on the development of local government in Johannesburg. Mr. Pretorius worked for 11 years as assistant-secretary to the Transvaal Natural Resources Development Council, and on 1 April 1968, he was appointed to this department, where he has accomplished several tasks. However, we shall remember him in particular as the man who tackled the Richards Bay and Saldanha Bay projects. During 1974, he was appointed planning adviser to the Minister of Planning in order to handle the development of those State projects. He has just been appointed planning adviser to the Prime Minister and he is also chairman of the Planning Advisory Council, as I have already said.

I also want to welcome Mr. J. F. Otto here. He has been Secretary for Planning for quite some time. Mr. Otto obtained the B.Sc. (Civil Engineering) degree at the University of Natal in 1945. After some years of service in the engineering departments of various municipalities, he obtained the diploma in town and regional planning at the Polytechnic in London in 1961. He has been in the Public Service since 1964, and since 1 March 1969 he has been chief director of the Physical Planning Division of this department. Mr. Otto was appointed Secretary for Planning and the Environment with effect from 1 February 1976.

We want to extend a sincere welcome to those gentlemen who have joined us, and to those who have left, we say thank you very much. I also want to pay tribute to my predecessor who built this department up from a department which had to feel its way to one which has come to know at last how it should proceed. Even now, if one had to describe this department, one would have to say that it is a department which concentrates on achieving co-operation between other departments, but I do want to pay tribute to my predecessor for the way in which he built up this department and also for the fact that he obtained some powers of control for the department in recent times.

The tasks of this department are reflected in the speeches we heard here this morning and this afternoon. However, I now want to place the tasks of these departments in a broad perspective. In broad outline, the tasks are geographical classification and physical planning, co-ordination, liaison, guidance and also implementation—especially in recent times, when we have had to get actively involved in certain functions connected with complexes such as Richards Bay and Saldanha Bay. As far as control is concerned, there is land utilization, industrial control and research—a particularly important function of this department. Then there are staff matters as well, as everyone knows. Geographical classification and physical planning include group areas, of course. Accordingly, I just want to give a brief indication of how matters will be arranged. Here I think that I should be in control. This is what we have decided for the time being, and as a department we shall proceed to feel our way accordingly.

The Deputy Minister will handle the permit applications, except for appeals, in the case of the Group Areas Act. This is a tentative arrangement, although he will have the right to act in this connection, because he is qualified by law to take decisions. This will also involve the zoning of land for industrial purposes, control over the erection and expansion of factories through the employment of Bantu, and permit applications in respect of changes in the use of land in terms of section 8 of the Act. If there are appeals, we shall discuss the matter, of course. In all other cases I shall be consulted. We shall then be able to discuss the matter so that I may also be informed of it.

Another one who will interfere in the Department of Community Development!

I am afraid I did not hear what the hon. member said. I just heard him refer to interference. Let us interfere then, for the task of my department is to interfere with the work of other departments in order to obtain co-operation, and we make no apology for that. The hon. member for Green Point might have tried to make a contribution as well, because this department is not one in respect of which we try to attack one another across the floor of the House.

I shall discuss it with the Minister concerned next week.

Yes, the hon. member may discuss it with him. However, I just want to point out to the hon. member that this department is not one in which we display this kind of attitude.

Further matters which are involved in this are control over agricultural land, as well as group areas. This means the day to day handling of group areas. While we are on the subject of group areas, I want to point out that in accordance with an undertaking given by the Prime Minister to the hon. member for Sea Point in connection with the appointment of Coloured people and Indians to statutory boards, it has been decided that a Coloured and an Indian member will be added to the five members of the Group Areas Board. These people will be full members, although the times they will have to work will depend on the amount of work to be done. The kind of work they will have to do will not be laid down, however. They will be full members, and we are negotiating at this stage with suitable persons who have applied or who are prepared to serve on this board. I am convinced that these people should have a say from the outset, especially when it comes to the level of implementation, in matters which affect them very closely indeed.

Sir, I come now to the points raised by the various speakers. The hon. member for Benoni, who takes a particular interest in planning, and who could certainly teach me something, said that South Africa ought to be planned as a whole. In other words, he wants the Bantu homelands to be included in this. In drawing up the National Physical Development Plan, we took four metropolitan areas, 10 Bantu homelands and 38 White regions into consideration. We are not planning without these people or for these people; we are really planning with them, because they are a part of the greater whole at this stage.

The hon. member also mentioned a national research institute. As far as this is concerned, we as a department prefer to allow specialist departments to do this work. We do the co-ordination. We consult with others, such as the Economic Advisory Council and other specialist departments. We believe that it is not the task of this department, being mainly a co-ordinating department, to try to do that work itself.

The hon. member also referred to the provision of enough room for all our national groups. We bear this in mind, especially when it comes to drawing up guide plans. In this connection we think of all people. Growth-point identification is also done within the framework of the National Physical Development Plan. It is not done on its own. Ideological objectives are not relevant here. Our policy is aimed at providing geographical areas for our various national groups.

Then the hon. member for Kuruman spoke of the North-Western Cape and of the Bantu who are penetrating into those parts. The hon. member based his appeal on the fact that I come from the North-Western Cape myself. Well, I cannot deny that, of course, so I suppose I owe him an answer. The hon. member and I discussed this matter recently. The position is that the Government decided on the Sishen-Saldanha railway line on 30 October 1973. It was felt that something should be done to develop an infrastructure in the North-Western Cape, in order to enable the potential of that region to be fully exploited. For this reason, it was decided—let this be regarded as a quid pro quo, if you like—that a Cabinet committee, in co-operation with the administrator, would investigate the needs with regard to the creation of an infrastructure for the North-Western Cape. The Department of Planning conducted an investigation in loco and concluded that certain things ought to be done at once, and that other things could be postponed to a later stage.

I am pleased to be able to tell the hon. member for Namaqualand that a road between Alheit and Springbok is being envisaged. Everything depends on the availability of money. The Provincial Administration has progressed as far as possible in surveying and planning the road. This is one of the roads which is still regarded as very important.

As regards the possible construction of a railway line from Agenijs to join up with the Sishen-Saldanha line, we are waiting at the moment for the companies concerned to give an indication of the extent to which they can provide a guarantee for the construction of the line. It is a project which will entail great expense, especially in these times. As soon as the extent of the transport requirements there have been determined, the construction of the line will obviously commence.

As regards the guide plan for Sishen and environs—this is something the hon. member for Kuruman inquired about—I must concede that in the initial enthusiasm for the Sishen-Saldanha project, Saldanha grew more important, while Sishen may have become less important in the eyes of the public. However, I have given instructions for a start to be made at once on a guide-plan for Sishen and environs. Therefore I hope that the hon. member will be satisfied in knowing that my department has now come to the stage where active steps are being taken in regard to this matter.

With reference to the hon. the Minister’s reply in connection with the investigation of the infrastructure potential in the North-Western Cape, I want to point out that the Northern Cape was excluded from the investigation to which the hon. the Minister referred. Last year Mr. Willie Visagie and a team of people to whom I referred in my speech undertook an investigation in Region 18. Would it be possible for the hon. the Minister to give the House an indication of what that investigation produced?

It is not possible for me to give a detailed exposition of what was produced by that investigation, because the plan of investigation included the whole Northern Cape. Sishen and all its surrounding areas, as well as the whole North-Western Cape, was covered by the investigation. I am afraid I cannot give an exact indication of all the particulars. I hope that I have replied satisfactorily to the questions put by the hon. member for Kuruman.

†The hon. member for South Coast was concerned about the Coloured people of Natal and the question of group areas there. I want to say to the hon. member that one cannot apply the same criteria in Natal as in Atlantis, because the situation is different. With growth points like these, the starting point is where there is a pressure of labour of a certain group. There is no pressure in Natal, at least not to the same extent as at Atlantis and in the Cape Peninsula. That is why we start these growth points where we have the greatest number of a specific part of the population. That is why we have places such as Kimberley and Atlantis in mind and why we are paying attention to them. In other areas, the department will discharge its responsibilities as best it can and in line with the needs of these communities. Therefore the hon. member need not fear that we are not concerned about Natal. Actually, I have been inundated with requests from all over, but even apart from that, it is our duty to take care of the whole of South Africa.

*As far as the Coloured people in Zululand are concerned, I just want to say that no final decision has yet been taken on the matter. We are again investigating whether the Coloured people and the Indians should have the right to live there permanently. I think it is sufficient to say that.

†In regard to the situation at Newcastle where people live in the KwaZulu area, the position is that it is encountered throughout the world that people have to work in a certain part of the country while they live in another part of the country. We simply have to accept that. It is part of a transitional development. Eventually all the businesses will be in the homelands. It may sound idealistic, but that is the goal. It is a transitional period that we have to do with now.

*The hon. member for Bloemfontein East gave us a very interesting treatise on the staggering of work hours. I cannot give the hon. member much information about this matter at this stage. However, I can tell the hon. member that my department has been trying for a few years to do something about the whole problem of the staggering of work hours. We began with Pretoria and we have made great progress in Government departments and elsewhere. This can serve as an example for extending the system from there to other areas. In this connection we can definitely use the Driessen Report as a basis. We can establish committees which can then proceed, using this as a basis. We have done the preparatory work, and anything which may happen further and the experience we shall gain in this connection will enable us to make greater progress in respect of the staggering of work hours. This is a very important aspect, because we cannot simply go on building roads in our urban areas. We must try, by co-operating, to stagger work hours in such a way that the roads will not be jammed with cars at a certain time every day. We should rather stagger work hours over certain times of the day.

The hon. member for Langlaagte gave a factual report in respect of wrong planning which took place in the past, especially with regard to Bantu farms and farms in the southern parts of Johannesburg. We cannot create growth points in parts where many of these people are already living, because social problems are already in existence. Therefore the arguments advanced by the hon. member prove that we simply have to decentralize in South Africa. This is the crucial argument in favour of decentralization in a country such as South Africa. I do not want to minimize the problems raised by the hon. member in respect of the more local aspects, and I should like to discuss this matter with the hon. member again.

A few hon. members referred to the question of energy. “Energy crisis” is a term we all know by this time. In fact, it has become a fashionable term among us. I wonder whether many people realize what it really means.

I found the contribution made by the hon. member for Springs very interesting. The hon. member, as well as other hon. members, such as the hon. member for Bryanston, referred to the department’s function with regard to energy. I should like to react to this. The energy crisis has received great publicity in the world especially since 1973. The department is responsible for certain matters affecting our energy resources. Now I want to say that when the department has been entrusted with a matter, it does not only co-ordinate its functions, but its policy as well, so that we have a comprehensive and integrated policy in respect of our energy resources for the future. An energy crisis may overtake us sooner than we think if we do not pay attention to long-term planning in respect of our energy requirements. There may well be acute energy crisis in the future, resulting from a shortage of coal in winter, for example. We do not know what may happen. On the one hand, the world is concerned about energy resources and raw materials, and on the other hand there is the danger of pollution, which is the inevitable consequence of development. The pollution is the result of transportation, the processing and consumption of fuels. There is nothing from which the world stands to benefit which does not also have some ill effects. All over the world there is universal concern about energy.

In 1960 there was a superfluity of energy resources. Oil and coal were cheap and there was no problem with the price of transportation. Freight, for example, was relatively cheap. Gas resources were discovered and everything was going well, too well. No care was taken during the sixties to make the best use of the energy resources and to conserve them. That is why we got into the position in which we find ourselves today. Energy resources are no longer freely available, and those who do have them know what they are worth. This is why there are constant problems with the Opec countries, and we shall have problems in respect of uranium as well in the future. We shall have to think more and more of other forms of energy. When we have no more liquid forms of energy, such as oil, and when energy resources in the form of gas have been exhausted, we shall have to use electricity. We have water, and at the moment we still have coal as well. After that we shall have to utilize other sources of energy, such as the energy which may be obtained from the sun and the wind. This means that research into other sources of energy will become more and more essential. I should like to express a few thoughts about the alternative sources of energy to which I have referred. We in South Africa are fairly fortunate, but we shall have to realize the urgency of the matter. We are in the fortunate position that we can obtain 75% of our energy from coal, while 25% of our energy is derived from oil, and we have to get oil from other countries because we do not have it ourselves. As against this, the rest of the world depends on oil for 60% of its energy requirements. This is a tremendous difference. We are also in a very fortunate position as far as our uranium reserves are concerned. The extent of our reserves has never been exactly determined. According to the present estimate, we possess approximately one-sixth of the world’s uranium. We are one of three countries which are able to produce uranium at a low price, say at 15 dollars per unit. By 1985, when 87 000 tons will be produced in the world, the demand will exceed this by 13 000 tons. In other words, this is another source of energy we shall have to use. Perhaps we shall have to introduce an intensified programme as far as the utilization of uranium and nuclear power is concerned. The need to get started on this is much more urgent now than it used to be. Therefore it is my duty today, in cooperation with the other departments, to formulate a good energy policy, an integrated energy policy for the future. This involves three phases. First we have to collect information and to ascertain the extent and the nature of our energy resources. Then we have to make a projection of what the demand for and the distribution of these will be in the future. Finally we have to draw up a policy on the basis of the information which has been collected in this way. There are problems, such as the question of overlapping between departments. However, there is a departmental policy committee consisting of experts in this field, and this committee will advise a Cabinet committee. I want to say frankly that I am very sure that in this way, by beginning in good time to conserve our energy resources in an organized way, we may be able to put an end to the fear of environmental disaster. This is what I wanted to say about the question of energy. I am very glad that hon. members raised this matter, for I believe it to be an extremely important one.

†The other points raised by the hon. member for Bryanston were answered by the hon. the Deputy Minister. Those are really matters which fall under him.

*The hon. member for Moorreesburg referred to the subregion between the metropolitan area of Greater Cape Town and the Saldanha Bay area. That area at Saldanha Bay and Vredenburg extends to the south for 42 km, while the Cape area included Mamre. The area in between is mostly agricultural land. A nuclear power station will be constructed there. There are Darling and other places as well, so there will be other important points of development. However, Darling cannot be expected to ever become a large town. It is a town, however, in respect of which certain concessions have been made to get development off the ground. The department believes that the rest of this area should remain a buffer strip between two big metropolitan complexes in the future. With the railway lines and the roads in that area it will be one development axis from Cape Town to Saldanha in any event, in spite of the buffer strip. That is my reply to the hon. member for Moorreesburg.

†The hon. member for Orange Grove decided to make some superlative … I see he is not here at the moment. Therefore, I shall wait a while before coming to that matter.

The hon. member for Benoni spoke about mountain areas.

*As far as the Magaliesberg is concerned, arrangements are definitely being made by my department, the provincial administration concerned and other bodies to conserve this as a natural area. The information may be obtained from my department. We wholeheartedly agree with the hon. member, especially after the report on the Table Mountain area and the one on the mountains of the Southern Peninsula which is still to be submitted to me, that these aspects should receive special attention as far as the conservation of the environment is concerned. The Magaliesberg is already receiving attention. Attempts are already being made to get it under better central control. This is the position in regard to consultation as well as the recreational aspect of the matter. I hope the hon. member is satisfied on that score. I cannot be acquainted with the particulars of all those matters. I just have to see to it that I know something about them. The hon. the Deputy Minister deals with those matters.

Then the hon. member for Vasco referred in particular to the task of the CSIR, and he was very enthusiastic about the international importance of this special and important body. As we know, the CSIR was established by Act. No. 32 of 1962 and was given the task, inter alia, of acting as a link between the Republic and other countries in matters of scientific and industrial research, in terms of section 4. Its principal task is to promote industrial production, to provide a sound economic infrastructure, to promote the wellbeing of our population in every respect, by rendering assistance by means of research, for example, in housing, schools, harbour development, utilization of resources, etc. The promotion of the well-being of our population is a very broad concept and it includes a matter such as pollution of the environment. One of its four principal tasks is to maintain contact with the outside world. I want to pay tribute to our scientists today for the work they have done and the work they are still doing, especially with regard to our contact with other countries. Just as in the medical field, it has been proved that we have some of the best and most resourceful scientists in the world. They are on a par with the best overseas scientists. Nor does this mean that they live in isolation. There is continual contact and interaction and they play a leading part.

I want to mention two of the instruments which their resourcefulness has enabled them to invent. One of these is a device for measuring distances by means of radio waves, which I do not know very much about. Then they have also conducted research in connection with the reclamation of water, for which they have received international recognition. Today there is splendid co-operation with Israel, and there is an agreement. It is true that it does not have anything to do with these other agreements we already know about. However, there is constant co-operation. Dr. Brink of the CSIR visited Israel last year. These people have quite a number of achievements to their credit, concerning mass housing and the testing of illiterates, for example, as well as the adjustment of people from rural districts in an urban and industrial area, etc. The CSIR stays in contact with other countries, and by means of the financial assistance it gives to some of its own students and scientists and by means of financial contributions to attract others to this country, it ensures that there is a constant interaction with scientific development abroad. I may also say that some very outstanding scientists are sometimes recruited by the CSIR, and that apart from the bursaries, there are quite a number of schemes which require a great deal of money. Well, when we speak of a great deal of money, this means only a few thousand rand. However, this is not the point. The CSIR is constantly engaged in performing its task, not only as a liaison body, but also as a body which by means of interaction performs its task abroad to the best of its ability and which, in so doing, has won great praise for us in the past. Just think of the fact that we have been co-operating with the USA for 18 years, and that we are co-operating with the French at the moment, at the station for tracing satellites at Hartbeeshoek, for example. Then there is co-operation with the Science Research Council of England in the science of astronomy. At Sutherland we have the great observatory with its big telescope, which I recently inaugurated. These people are doing a very great work, therefore, and I want to tell my esteemed friend, the hon. member for Vasco, that I am very glad he raised the matter of the CSIR, because I consider it to be one of the great scientific bodies performing extremely important work for South Africa.

†The hon. member for Orange Grove is back in the House. I want to tell him that I think that he resorted to the use of superlatives about the actions of certain officials whose names he did not mention, but to whom he referred in a derogatory manner. I cannot answer any questions put to me in that fashion. The hon. member did not mention names. In this specific instance it is not possible for me to be a judge on the matters he mentioned. The hon. member wanted me to give him clear answers—I think it was a little bit of political impertinence on his part—on something that was done administratively. He never crossed my doorstep and yet my door is open to him at any time. He could have come to see me if he had felt so strongly about the matter. The hon. member made certain allegations and if he wants an answer to those allegations, I shall not let the matter rest there, but shall have to follow it up. Regarding his specific questions, I have nothing more to say about the Cabinet’s decision as far as Indian and Coloured resorts are concerned. In cases like that certain guarantees are required, and we have to take into account what the attitude of the people who live around the site is. As far as that is concerned, I will not comment on it. The department has not issued a second refusal; that I have been told. As I do not know all the facts of the matter, I can only tell the hon. member that the department has furnished its comments to the provincial administration, and this question accordingly falls away. The Transvaal Peri-urban Areas Board has jurisdiction in regard to this matter, and the question of their being overruled by the department therefore does not apply. This is as far as I can try to satisfy the hon. member. I do not like the way he has approached this matter. Nevertheless, my door is still open if he comes to discuss it, but then he must not approach the matter in a similar vein.

*In conclusion, the Department of Statistics has also been entrusted to me. I think this department is extremely important. Of all the departments, this is the one to which most questions are addressed. Members on the other side will be able to testify to this, for questions are answered by the department at all hours, and most questions are written ones. Even though the Department of Statistics was not discussed today, I am glad that Dr. Du Plessis, the Secretary for the department, is present. This is a department which does its work in silence. It is appreciated. I have taken the trouble of ascertaining, in the limited time I have had, that this department actually performs very important work indeed. I had not always realized how important good statistics are in one’s planning and also in identifying certain tendencies. One can even take corrective steps after one has been going in the wrong direction for some time if one’s statistics are right. The Department of Statistics provides us with statistics concerning many aspects of our national life—such as the economy, agriculture, health, population—and we should be very grateful for this. I am glad that this department cannot complain of any lack of co-operation from other departments. In fact, I am very grateful for the co-operation my department has received from other departments in the four months I have been in control. I should like to tell the other departments that we are dependent on them for performing our task, and if they do not want to co-operate, we cannot do anything. However, up to now we have had the very best cooperation, and I want to express my sincere thanks for this.

I thank all the hon. members who took part in this very interesting discussion.

Votes agreed to.

Vote No. 37 and S.W.A. Vote No. 23—“Public Works”:

Mr. Chairman, first allow me to make a statement on the retirement of the present Secretary of the Department and the appointment of a new Secretary. I wish to announce hereby that the Secretary of the Department of Public Works, Mr. Aubrey Howard, will retire from the service with effect from 1 October 1976. Mr. Howard joined the department on 1 April 1931. His entire career of more than 45 years has therefore been spent in the same department. Since 1 October 1969 he has been the head of the Department. As Secretary Mr. Howard has made an exceptional contribution to the development of the Department of Public Works into the efficient establishment it is today. The nature of his activities obliged him to liaise intensively with other departments and outside bodies and persons. He is known to all for his friendliness, efficiency and helpfulness. However, this has not prevented him from giving a firm lead at all times.

†As one with no formal education or training in this respect, he attained a remarkable degree of practical knowledge as far as technical matters in his department are concerned. This enabled him to speak with authority at congresses and symposia in connection with the building and construction industries and related matters. The singular honour and well-earned tribute was accorded to him in 1974, when he was nominated as chairman of the Third South African Building Research Congress held at Durban. This was an international congress sponsored by the National Building Research Institute.

Under his leadership as chairman the Building and Construction Advisory Council has initiated a number of studies and projects to assist the building and construction industries. One example of these is the investigation into the characteristics and cyclical fluctuations of the construction industry undertaken by the Bureau for Economic Research of the University of Stellenbosch.

*I should like to thank an outstanding departmental head on behalf of the Government for his loyal and competent service to the State over a period of so many years. May he and his charming wife, Mrs. Peggy Howard, have a long and happy retirement.

Mr. M. M. (Mike) du Preez, the present Deputy Secretary, has been designated as his successor. Mr. Du Preez has been with the department since 1947 and is well known to members of Parliament. He has a thorough and comprehensive knowledge of all facets of the department and I have no doubt that he will be a worthy successor of his predecessor.

Mr. Chairman, it is my pleasure this afternoon to associate those of us in these benches with the good wishes the hon. the Minister has conveyed to Mr. Howard, in anticipation of his going on pension in a few months’ time. We wish him a long, happy and healthy retirement and we hope that he and his wife will be able to enjoy many years of happy retirement together and enjoy what he has worked so hard for over the last 45 years. I believe that Mr. Howard is an example of a man who has risen through the ranks. I think he is an example to every public servant. No matter where you start or what your qualifications are in the Public Service, you can rise to the top if you show the necessary keenness and enthusiasm for your job and show that you are prepared to learn and to work. I wish him well.

That was not possible under a UP Government.

No, it is no use the hon. the Deputy Minister trying to introduce politics into this matter. I know, from my own experience, that the same kind of thing happened when the previous Government was in power. Mr. Howard, however, rose to his position in spite of people like that hon. Deputy Minister. [Interjections.] I have a second pleasure this afternoon, and that is to welcome the hon. the Minister to this post. I hope that he will have a happy stay in his present position. If we can do anything to make his stay a happy one, we shall sincerely do so, but at the same time the hon. the Minister must realize and understand that we are here as the watchdogs of the public and that if we criticize what is happening in his department, the criticism is not levelled at any individual, be it Mr. Schlebusch himself or whatever other encumbent. It is levelled at the post and at the department as a whole.

The hon. the Minister has a very important task indeed, although it seems to be belittled by most Parliamentarians who do not, unfortunately, take an interest in this particular portfolio. This hon. Minister now has control over the expenditure of something like R1 500 million of Government money. Fortunately it is not all going to be spent in one year. In this current financial year—and this is the reason for this debate this afternoon—he is asking Parliament for something in the region of R120 million to be spent on the provision of accommodation, buildings and facilities, mainly for housing other Government departments.

During the debates on this vote during the past few years we have told the hon. the Minister’s predecessors how we feel his department should be run. We have told them how we believe that department should be run as opposed to the way in which it has been run in the past. We have said that we believe that the department should be smaller than it is now, that it should comprise small, expert planning and supervisory divisions only and that it should be made up of expert professional persons of the highest qualifications and ability. We have suggested in the past that it might be an idea if his department were removed from the control of the Public Service Commission in order to enable him to attract such persons to his department and to keep them. His predecessor, Mr. Du Plessis, who has now left this House, told us why that department could be separate from the Public Service Commission.

However, I want to put another suggestion to the hon. the Minister. He should create within his department special professional ranks and gradings because it is common knowledge throughout the world that the Public Service cannot hold professional men because of the attractions offered to them outside the Public Service. The private sector attracts persons of the highest calibre because of the better facilities and the higher pay which can be offered to them. I believe that this hon. Minister should, however, be allowed to attract persons of the highest calibre and to keep them. We have told his predecessor that we believe that his department should have its own tender board and that this should also be administered by this small team of experts.

We have told him that he should make more use of the private sector to do the donkey work. This department should not be concerned with the physical implementation of any of the projects that are planned. Its purpose should be to plan, to supervise the drawing up of the plans and to supervise the execution of the plans. This has not been accepted by his predecessor, but I commend these thoughts to the hon. the Minister. I am sure that if he has not done so already, he will possibly look up previous debates on this particular vote and see in greater detail exactly what it is that we have suggested to the department.

There is another suggestion that I most strongly want to press upon the hon. the Minister this afternoon. We have said previously that there should be a Select Committee of members of Parliament on Public Works. The late Mr. Blaar Coetzee, when he was Minister of Public Works, described this as an interesting proposition which he would consider. He unfortunately left the department before he was able to do anything about it. The hon. the Minister’s immediate predecessor, Mr. A. H. du Plessis, said that he was prepared to look at the matter if more detail was given on how it should function. Details, I submit, will have to be worked out once the principle is accepted. I want to say to the hon. the Minister that I believe he now has an excellent opportunity. He is a new Minister and he has a new Secretary taking office. I must say, in all fairness, that whoever the incumbents of those posts in any department are, they impose their own personality on the department concerned. Here I believe the hon. the Minister and Mr. Du Preez, who will be succeeding Mr. Howard, have an excellent opportunity to do something along those lines.

In speaking of the sort of detail that we require, I should like to refer to the White Paper which has been tabled by the hon. the Minister, namely WP D—1976. Such a White Paper should be placed before a Select Committee so that hon. members can discuss its details with officials. In this way, too, members will be able to discuss details outside of the political atmosphere which pertains in this place. They should, for instance, be in a position to discuss a backlog in building, if it exists.

They should be able to discuss projections for the future as well as priorities and the problems of the hon. the Minister’s department. In addition, the problems of other departments could be discussed, because we know that the problems are not strictly those of this Minister. They are the problems of other departments for whom he is required to provide accommodation. Very often he is nothing more than the post box, the one who is carrying out the wishes and executing the plans of other departments. In this Select Committee I believe hon. members would have the opportunity of discussing the problems of their own constituencies, because you know, Sir, that in terms of the rules of this House every one of us is entitled to sit in on the hearings at any Select Committee. I am sure that the hon. the Minister has already learnt that there are very few members of this House who do not have at least some problem in their constituencies affecting his department. To come here and make a 10 minute speech in this debate really does not satisfy the necessities of members.

I would commend to the hon. the Minister that he reads the debate that was held on the private member’s motion introduced by the hon. member for Mooi River on 5 March this year. He introduced in that motion the idea that more Select Committees should be used. In that debate we particularly mentioned the hon. the Minister’s department as the prime example of how the work of this House could be facilitated by the introduction of such a Select Committee. The sort of thing that could be discussed is a question which I wish to put to the hon. the Minister across the floor of the House this afternoon. Such a question could better be dealt with in a Select Committee. I refer to page 20 of WP D of 1976.

Under the heading “Chanceries and Residential Accommodation” an amount of R150 000 is being asked for this year for the convention of and additions to a property to serve as a chancery, and for the provision of residential accommodation at Umtata. Although R150 000 is asked for this year, we are being asked to approve total expenditure of R600 000 on this item. Is R600 000 justified in this instance? If we compare this amount with the amounts which are spent on chanceries in other countries, we must accept that it is not an exorbitant amount, but when we consider that Umtata is at the moment a part of the Republic and that costs in Umtata are costs in the Republic, it seems that R600 000 is verging upon an exorbitant amount for this sort of accommodation. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, I should like to associate myself with the hon. member for Pietermaritzburg South and, on behalf of this side of the House, convey our thanks and appreciation to the Secretary of Public Works who is retiring, Mr. Howard. We have the greatest appreciation for the good work which he accomplished. We always enjoyed his most enthusiastic co-operation. He was always approachable and very helpful to us. We wish him and Mrs. Howard a pleasant period of rest. We should also like to congratulate Mr. Du Preez, our new Secretary, and assure him of our co-operation and support in anticipation. I should also like to congratulate the hon. the Minister once again on behalf of our side of the House, on the first occasion he is dealing with this vote in the House. We know the hon. the Minister, not only as a pleasant person, but also as someone who is of a calm disposition. I believe that with those characteristics things will be very calm and peaceful in his department too.

The Department of Public Works is not solely concerned with the provision of Government property, but also with its care. It is true that we always set very high standards and demands and I wonder whether these are not a little excessive sometimes. When I speak of the demands we set, I am referring to buildings for the Public Service, provincial administrations and even local authorities. I think that we have become too obsessed by prestige buildings. The norm according to which the buildings are judged is no longer their efficiency in meeting the need for which they are built; instead it is now their appearance and luxuriousness. We are too inclined to speak of buildings which are already 50 or 60 years old as if age is the only reason for which they should be replaced. One does not like to level reproaches, but I think that if we search our own hearts, we as members of Parliament are possibly the greatest culprits because we are too quick to ask for a new magistrates court, for example, or a new post office, whereas in many cases, many of those buildings, with the necessary changes and adaptations, can be just as effective as a new building. It is strange that when a new building is asked for and the demands are complied with, there is always a request for the old buildings to be preserved as historical monuments. One does not always know whether one wants a new or the old building.

We are grateful to see that according to the annual report, the department has decided that they, too, will do away with some of those luxuries. For instance, I have in mind here the idea of reducing the size of senior officials’ offices forthwith and doing away with some of their luxurious aspects. We should like to wish our officials pleasant working conditions and we should like to see them working under those pleasant conditions, but I think that this is overdone to a large extent in many cases, and that we are now doing the right thing.

I should like to refer to another aspect, namely that of grounds. I am referring to unimproved grounds which are found in municipal areas and which fall under the jurisdiction of this department as far as regards their allocation and alienation. I think that this is a problem for practically every municipality in the whole Republic. That land consists of parts which, for example, are acquired by donation when new townships are established. It may even occur that such areas are purchased by the State. I shall be better able to illustrate my problem by using Boksburg as an example. Within the municipal area of Boksburg we have 75 such unimproved pieces of Government property. Of these 75 no fewer than 52 have been standing vacant for as long as 87 years. It is also interesting to note that 13 of those plots comprise a mere 2 500 square feet if you will allow me to use the old terms, and that 11 of them comprise only 5 000 square feet. In fact, therefore, these are little patches of land which can be of no purpose or use whatsoever to any government department. Of course, I shall not live to see it, but in 87 years’ time those 22 patches of ground will probably still be standing there as little utilized as ever.

Apart from the fact that this entails an immense loss for a municipality, they do not serve any purpose other than that of a rubbish dump either. I wonder, therefore, whether the time has not come for a survey to be made of plots which are lying vacant and unused in municipal areas. I am sure that no government department, provincial administration or town council can make any use of such land. If a survey of this nature is carried out and it is discovered that the land under discussion is not needed for any official purpose, then in my opinion it would be a practical measure if we could allow such land to be sold, whether by tender or by public auction. According to the latest municipal valuation the value of those 75 empty plots in Boksburg amounts to R190 000. This entails an annual loss to that municipality of approximately R9 500 in municipal rates. After all, this is quite a considerable amount. If similar calculations are made in every town and city in South Africa, it will be clear that the sale of such plots will not only compensate for losses in municipal income, but could also provide a valuable source of income to the State.

Now I should like to put a question to the hon. the Minister in connection with the land and buildings surrounding this parliamentary building. A great deal has been said about this. Many visitors are received in this parliamentary building, both from abroad and from the Republic itself. One would therefore like to see—I am not referring to the inside of the building now; it is always calm and peaceful here when it depends on me … [Interjections.] However, I am referring to the surroundings, for example Stalplein and its surroundings, where there are still many unsightly buildings to be seen. I should like to know from the hon. the Minister how much progress has been made in the planning of the area mentioned; the renovation of some of the buildings, the demolition of others, etc.

Mr. Chairman, it is a pleasure for me, in associating myself with what was said by the hon. member for Boksburg, to wish the hon. the Minister everything of the best with his work in the future. The new hon. Minister of Public Works shows striking similarities with his predecessor. He is not a man of many words either, and he also represents a constituency in a province which believes in one party representation.[Interjections.]

I should also like to thank and bid farewell to the Secretary of the Department who is now retiring. We trust that he will enjoy the time of rest which may still be granted to him, and that he will make full use of it; by, among other things, critically considering his own handiwork from a distance. I wish his successor everything of the best in the task which awaits him. We are looking forward to co-operating wholeheartedly with him in the future.

Studying the report of the Secretary of Public Works, the reader is immediately struck by the vast scope of the activities of the department, activities which extend, so to speak, across the globe. We have only to think of the provision of accommodation—the erection and maintenance thereof at embassies throughout the world; its purchasing and planning and the problems this entails—to realize that this must also be a very interesting department. It is a department through which one may come into contact with virtually all the countries of the world. It is probably understandable, therefore, that there are indeed people who are willing to do this exacting work.

Internally an immense task rests upon the shoulders of this department. We call to mind, for instance, the provision of accommodation, which plays a particularly important role. Determining these accommodation requirements is a major and responsible task. During the year under review, 557 applications for accommodation were investigated. Based upon the construction costs of this accommodation, the department succeeded in saving R3,6 million by means of their inquiries—a large amount in these times of scarce money. I think this is a fine example of saving on State expenditure.

However, I feel that it will be beneficial if we could keep a constant eye on over-luxurious finishes and avoid designs that are too expensive. Buildings must of course be durable, but I ask that the unnecessary be avoided. Too often the Government is the willing payer when architects give expression to their flights of imagination and desires for creation. It is the ideal and dream of every architect who is worth his salt and has a love for his profession, to create artistic and monumental works in order to perpetuate his name. Unfortunately, clients for this type of work are scarce and the State therefore remains a sought-after client. Therefore it is reassuring to know that as long ago as 1974 the Cabinet committee for finance directed the department to save where at all possible so that more accommodation could be made available with the same funds. The question which arises now is whether the department, with its limited civil engineering staff, is able to carry out the mammoth task which already rests upon their shoulders, and then still to consider new projects with a view to alternatives to expensive submissions.

Although this department often works quietly and inconspicuously, it is illuminating to note that during the past financial year, no fewer than 1 158 major formal contracts to the value of R84,4 million were awarded. A further 1 011 smaller works, the value of which varied between R500 and R20 000, were completed. The expenditure on the maintenance of government buildings amounted to the vast sum of R9 073 million over the past five years. This gives some idea of the scope of the activities of this department.

Throughout South West Africa, too, even in the smallest places, the work of the Department of Public Works is clearly to be seen. The earnest with which the Government regards development in South West Africa is clearly reflected by the fact that in spite of inflation and other problems, the budget for South Africa, as far as capital works are concerned, was increased from R2,2 million in the previous year to R4,2 million. The Omarura constituency, too, got its share and I should like to refer hon. members to the school for Coloureds now being erected at Swakopmund, a school upon which R300 000 is being spent. This amount was not provided for in the budget, but the school became necessary owing to the fact that the Rio Tinto mine decided that it would practically double its activities. As a result they had to erect additional accommodation for their Coloured staff in Swakopmund. This meant that facilities had to be provided to schools in short order in the form of building additions. We are grateful to know that the addition to the school which is under construction is going to be completed within six months and that the school will be in operation at the end of January 1977. We should like to say “thank you very much”.

We also hear that a Bantu school to the value of R248 000 is going to be erected at Walvis Bay. Tenders will be called for in October this year. The Coloured town Narraville near Walvis Bay received a grant of R260 000 for the erection of a police station. Tenders will be called for this project in January 1977. R40 000 has been voted for the erection of a border post on the border of Owambo. I want to make an earnest plea for this project to enjoy priority. It is not a large project, but it is most essential. We are very grateful that the guardians there have been able to manage so far with the means available to them, and we want to plead that there will soon be relief for them.

Interesting developments lie ahead for Namaland, too. Namaland is situated in the Karas constituency. I do not want to refer to the projects as such, but I just want to ask whether it is not possible for greater use to be made of the Namas themselves. When developments are taking place in their homeland and training facilities are being created for them there, can they not make use of the opportunity to create their own facilities there themselves? If the Namas themselves help to build that school, they will develop a love and respect for the things which belong to them. This entails employment opportunities for those people. Even if it should take a little longer to complete the work it is worth the trouble.

I also want to refer to another interesting aspect of the Department of Public Works. I am referring to the function which they have to fulfil as a local authority. There are many Government villages throughout the country which are entirely under the control of the department. Perhaps I could mention as an example the most well-known, namely Voortrekkerhoogte, a town with as many inhabitants as Kroonstad. Kroonstad has a large municipality and a well-equipped corps of officials who see to the interest of the inhabitants daily. Voortrekkerhoogte is only one of the towns run by the Department of Public Works, and there are many of these towns. I made inquiries and discovered that there was no mayor among the ranks of the officials of the Department of Public Works. They do their work without a mayor, without the chains, without town clerks, etc. This task demands continual planning and continual expansion. If we look at earthworks and allied works like the building of roads, etc., then we find that this alone amounts to R46 million. [Time expired.]

The hon. member for Omaruru has made an interesting speech on the expenditure of the Department of Public Works. I should also like to express a few thoughts on the same matter for the consideration of the hon. the Minister.

†A study of the estimates of expenditure of the Public Works Department shows that in 1975-’76 it placed work to the value of R120 million. In the current year, 1976-’77, they place work to the tune of R121 million, an increase of only R1,5 million, or less than 1%. Apart from the curtailment of the work of the department and the ominous meaning it must have to the many State departments who are waiting for new premises, additions and alterations, those who are now struggling along in inadequate quarters, there is also the effect on the economy this slow-down must be having, this slow-down on the spending on public buildings. I would like to quote from the Building Survey (No. 29) published by the Bureau of Economic Research. On page 4 it says—

This is the aspect I really want to refer to. They go on to summarize the results of the survey which they have done and, on page 8, they say—

Then, further on, they refer to the effect of this and say—

The point I wish to make is that the building industry has a key role to play in the economy of the country, and this department has a key part to play in supporting this industry. It is easy to criticize, but I admit it is difficult to plan ahead, to plan State expenditure in such a way as to take full advantage of the economic slowdown. It is a long-term exercise, because the planning, designing and the placing out to tender of public works is a lengthy process. Only last year, under this Vote, the hon. member for Walmer tried to persuade the hon. the Minister’s predecessor to furnish a schedule of planned public works, giving dates of approval, commencement and finalization of the different schemes on priority lists. We are grateful to the hon. the Minister and the department for this list which they have now issued to us, giving us a schedule of the work which is being planned and which may be going out to tender in the near future. We realize that this is most informative, but it still does not show that we are taking advantage of the lack of work in the building industry. It is hardly necessary to point out the shortsightedness of the Government’s policy, because they are building up a backlog of work. The work which is not being done now, will have to be done at a time when the cost will apparently be very much higher than it is now. This may result in doubling the cost and is not helping the building industry, which is crippled and which will be more crippled, with the result that firms will go out of business and people will leave the building industry from the employment point of view. It will be difficult to attract them back. It also creates pessimism in the building industry in South Africa.

Sir, it is with pleasure that we welcome the system which has been announced in the survey of the building industry and which has been drawn up by the National Building Research Institute, for which we are very grateful, and as the hon. the Minister has said, to Mr. Howard and his department, for the support they have given to this survey, because this survey holds hope for the building industry. It is a system designed by computerization, feeding in all the relative facts, and by this system we will obtain information which will demonstrate quickly the effect of short-term changes in the expenditure pattern.

It should then be possible to re-schedule the future projects to cause the least disruption in the building programme. This will also supply a steady demand to the building industry. It is unnecessary to point out the great advantage of such a system, in that a uniform rate of investment can be achieved and a uniform load being placed on the building industry. In the past the great problem has been the fluctuation in the demand for the services of the building industry. We have often suggested in this House that the investment in building works, particularly public works, should be used to counter-balance the fluctuations in the economic activity of South Africa. The argument may be used that it is the dips in the economy that cause fluctuations in the building industry. This brings us to the old question: Which comes first, the chicken or the egg? It underlines the need for long-range planning and prognostications so that the time lag between the sags in the building industry can be taken advantage of in such a manner as to cause the minimum of interruption to the economy.

I want to appeal to the hon. the Minister to expedite the drafting of the national building regulations. The standard building regulations which were published in 1970 and which took 12 to 15 years to be drawn up from the date of the first discussion, was already out of date at the time it was published. Two years ago it was decided to up-date those standard building regulations, but at the present rate it is estimated that it will take anything from 20 to 25 years before they are completely up-dated. Those of us who saw the film The Towering Inferno, the film about the skyscraper which caught alight in San Francisco, were all shaken and horrified, but of course, as usual, we told ourselves that it cannot happen here. Mr. Chairman, it can happen here; it can happen anywhere in the world where there is a tall building today which uses the new materials that have been developed in the building industry. We saw how these new materials, particularly the plastics, in the process of combustion, generated toxic fumes and smoke which were more dangerous and more deadly than the flames themselves.

I am afraid most local authorities are unaware of the dangerous properties of most of the new materials now so widely being used in the building industry. Mr. Vercoe of the National Building Research Institute has said that the existing fire legislation used by local authorities is not uniform because of the critical manpower shortage. He goes on to say that even architects are in a difficult position because they do not have the necessary expertise to judge which materials are safest to use in a building and often rely on the manufacturer’s information and specification and this is not always very accurate. I would suggest, and I am sure that we will all agree, that it is very necessary that some national or regional consultative organization be established to advise building designers on the properties of the new materials which are now so widely being used, often quite indiscriminately without knowing whether they are dangerous in case of fire or similar conditions. I would suggest to the hon. the Minister that he give this matter his deepest consideration.

Mr. Chairman, I am very pleased to share in the pleasure of previous speakers on the appointment of this hon. Minister as Minister of this department, and I should like to associate myself with previous speakers who wished him many years of pleasant service in this department. I should also like to share in the thanks which previous speakers expressed towards the Secretary of the Department, who is going to retire one of these days. I should like to thank him for the years of excellent service in this department and I also want to convey my congratulations to the former deputy secretary of the department on his appointment as secretary of the department.

The hon. member for South Coast will pardon me if I do not follow up his argument. The hon. the Minister will naturally furnish a reply to his arguments.

The Department of Public Works has a task of mammoth proportions. This task must keep pace with the requirements of 17 departments. All of these must be accommodated by this very small department. If one bears in mind that this great responsibility must be complied with in spite of the various limitations, we can only convey our greatest appreciation to the department. I am thinking of the limitations imposed upon this department as a result of the shortage of officials as well as the shortage of funds. To have been able to achieve this exceptional feat in the light of these limitations, is definitely no small achievement. One of the most outstanding functions of the Department of Public Works, in my opinion, is the restoration and preservation of buildings of historical value. To carry on erecting new buildings is certainly an achievement, especially in the light of present needs, but to restore and preserve testifies to a love which can really only be cultivated by an attitude to life.

Therefore I should very much like to address a word of sincere thanks to the department for those fine buildings which are being restored and preserved over the years. This is really something which is being left to our descendants as a heritage. I am thinking here in particular of a building which I know intimately, namely Piet Retief’s old farmhouse on the farm Mooimeisiesfontein in the Grahamstown district near the town of Riebeeck East. It is a house which has been restored in such a way that it will really be something for our people to be proud of in the future. In this sense it gives me the confidence to make a plea on this occasion for another very important project of preservation, namely the restoration and preservation of the Good Hope theatre, situated on the Stal Plein to the west of Tuynhuys. This building is of extremely important historical value, and is historically very closely associated with the coming into being of this esteemed House. This theatre building was built upon a plot which was given to one Mr. Wagenaar in the year 1666 and another part was given to one Mr. Vogel during the year 1706. During September 1800 the abovementioned two plots were transferred to the 36 members of the Losie Kaap de Goede Hoop. The lodge was erected on one part of the plot during 1801 and during 1814 the members of the lodge decided that a new hall would be built on the remaining part of the plot. The hall, 104 feet by 20 feet, was erected at the time at a cost of £2 000. What is interesting in connection with this old hall, is that on 30 June 1854, at 11 o’clock in the morning, i.e. precisely 122 years ago to a few weeks, the first session of the old Cape Parliament took place in that hall. This is how the proceedings of the old Cape Parliament, the predecessor of this esteemed House, began. During 1873 the old Cape Parliament wanted to buy the hall from the lodge, but the contract of sale could not go through. Parliament met in that hall until the year 1884. Then the parliament of that time shifted to the present Senate Hall. That is to say, the old Cape Parliament began on the plot where the present hall is situated, and continued in that old hall for 30 years. This is definitely of great historical value for this esteemed House as well. During 1892 the lodge, together with the hall of that time, was destroyed by fire.

It was then decided to build a new hall on the existing plot, a hall which would serve as a possible agricultural exhibition hall or a theatre, also known as a concert hall. However, it was decided rather to build a theatre, the so-called “Society House”, the building which stands there at the moment. On 31 January 1917—the day of my birth, in all modesty—the theatre was transferred to the State by a contract of sale and this building became the storage place of the Government Printer as it is at present. The theatre forms part of the complex known as the Tuynhuys, the Verwoerd building, the parliamentary buildings and Stal Plein, one of the most historical complexes in the Mother City. The restoration of the theatre could constitute part of an imaginative complex, with Stal Plein being transformed into a garden with an underground garage around which the theatre, the beautiful old Tuynhuys, the Verwoerd building and the parliamentary buildings would be situated. That theatre is in a very good condition. Structurally it is very strong and the interior forms a link with the European building style of the previous century. In other words, that building really lends itself to restoration and preservation. The restored building could serve as a venue for parliamentary functions for which there is a great need at the moment, while the Government Printer could perhaps be accommodated in the new proposed Marks Building complex in Plein Street.

I raise this matter with the hon. the Minister with great confidence because we are here dealing with an historical building which forms part of a beautiful complex in old Cape Town. It can truly be a heritage for our descendants. I believe that the hon. the Minister, as head of the Department of Public Works, will give this matter his magnanimous attention.

Mr. Chairman, it is also a pleasure to me to congratulate the hon. the Minister on his appointment to this office. We know the hon. the Minister as a man who always makes a success of any task entrusted to him. It is our privilege to join him in paying attention to such important matters in the discussion of this Vote.

Today I should first like to deal with the matter of town planning and then I should like to elaborate a little more on a matter raised by the hon. member for Boksburg. Today we no longer have a police station or post office in every small town, and this holds true particularly of small suburbs. Town planning still provides, however, for land to be transferred for these purposes in every new suburb or small town. Since we are experiencing such a major shortage of land for building houses and dwelling units, I wonder whether it is necessary for this endownment to be made. In the larger townships, wherever it may be necessary, we can still obtain the necessary land. In the smaller towns or suburbs, however, we ought not to continue demanding the transfer of this land while there is such a shortage of land for residential purposes.

There is another matter, however, which is perhaps increasing in importance at the moment, and I want to pay tribute to the department for having seen to this in time. I am referring to the costs to which architects give rise and to the manner in which they do their planning. I am able to congratulate the department today on the timeous attention they have given this matter and on the fact that all buildings which are being planned at present, are being so as to achieve the best possible utilization of space. I think our department deserves a great deal of praise for this.

To proceed, Sir, I want to thank the department and the Minister, as well as the Ministers who preceded him, for the wonderful way in which the foreign embassies are being furnished today. I want to refer in particular to one of the most interesting embassies in the world, namely the one in France. I think our embassy in France is one of the finest architectural works to be seen. On entering the building, one is aware of the fact that it is a creation, a new creation. Although it does not appear so at first glance, one feels that it is truly South African. What is particularly important, is the fact that the furnishings are utilized in such a way that it creates a truly South African atmosphere. On entering a building like this, one really feels that in that building one is a part of South Africa. I feel that tribute should be paid in particular to the designers and revisers who were responsible for the embassy in Paris. The rooms there are fully utilized, and the architecture contributes towards giving one the feeling that South Africa and France belong together. On entering this building from the street, one feels that there is an element of union.

While speaking of furnishings, one asks oneself what furnishings are actually indispensable in an embassy for identifying a country. In this regard I want to refer in particular to the paintings of a country. Today, if we look at our paintings, we shall probably all agree that not all the paintings of our painters will fit in in the embassy in Paris. However, this is not so in the case of embassy like the one in Berne. However, many of the works of our younger painters can definitely be used to advantage in Paris. Therefore I want to ask today that although we are experiencing a period of inflation, we should not disregard the works of these young painters. Painters like Battis, Betty Cilliers, Barnard—the name is important, of course—and the works of others may mean a great deal to South Africa.

I am thinking, for instance, of a young lady like Nel Erasmus, who is the curatrix of the Johannesburg Art Gallery. She is a person who has displayed exceptional talent over the years. She studied in Paris, and had art exhibitions in all parts of the world, but her love of the highveld, where she was born, brought her back. I am also thinking of a person like Maggie Laubser. Anyone who has seen Maggie Laubser’s sketches and paintings, will immediately feel a love of that country welling up in himself. I am thinking, for example, of a painting such as the one of an innocent young Coloured girl walking with a basket. All these paintings portray the soul of a nation and its people. That is why we should like to see these paintings being acquired. A time will come when one will no longer be able to buy these paintings. I am thinking, for instance, of artists such as Adolf Jentsch, Pierneef and W. A. Coetzer, a blind man who could have been worth millions today had he not gone blind. His paintings have remained for South Africa, but unfortunately they are too expensive to purchase today for the purpose for which we really need them. In these Houses of Parliament we also see that the departments have produced artists over the years. There was a certain time in our history when it was possible to preserve for South Africa the sketches of the officials and today they are displayed in many parts of the country, while our own young artists are disappearing. I believe that we are not making sufficient use of them. The man in the street does not buy their art. I think we must now purposefully set about buying those works of art of our young painters.

On one occasion I stood in Salzburg looking at the city’s large squares. It has been said that it was wrong to create these large squares while the people had to dwell in cramped quarters. If one returns to Salzburg today, one will find that the squares of Salzburg mean very much more than the people who complained at that time that they were cramped for room. The reason for this is that the squares attract people from all over the world who go there to see them. They are something unique; they are a part of history. In this way I also want it to become a part of our history for our young painters to be immortalized in our embassies. We must be able to give them an opportunity there. Here in our buildings in South Africa one often finds a painting which is absolutely trivial. I do not want to say that the painting is not “Afrikaans” or does not belong to South Africa, because this is probably not the case, but any person who paints and portrays life in South Africa, is an “Afrikaans” painter in my eyes. Somebody who can practise the art of a country, can never be alienated from that country. We have so many of these people that we must make a point of not having these paintings sold for a “penny ha’penny”, as the old saying goes. We must acquire these paintings and make use of them.

Mr. Chairman, for a moment we have seen the artist’s soul which rests in that unlikely body. Beyond that, I am afraid, there is nothing really that I can say to the hon. member for Langlaagte, except to commend his thoughts to the hon. the Minister.

I wish to return for a moment to the hon. member for Boksburg—I do not see him here at the moment—and the hon. member for Somerset East, who spoke about the developments around this House, particularly about the development around Stal Plein. I want to say to the hon. the Minister that I accept that it would be uneconomic at this stage to scrap Marks Buildings and to try to replace that with anything else. But, Sir, I believe that what the hon. the Minister can certainly consider with fruit at the moment, is the immediate implementation of that portion of the plan to which both hon. members have referred and which provides for a double-decker parking area on the site of the present duck pond, as it is so affectionately known to members, and the development of the proposed garden there in order to improve the entrance to Tuynhuys and also, as the hon. member for Somerset East has said, to make available the historic theatre up there for ceremonial occasions, possibly even for the ceremonial connected with the business of this House.

The hon. member for South Coast told the Minister that he, the Minister, was the one concerned with the building industry, that it was in fact his responsibility to stabilize that industry and that he is the one, more than anybody else or any other organization in this country, who has the capacity to stabilize it, to see that it is either not over-employed or under-employed. Sir, I was very disappointed as a result of the reply to a question put to the hon. the Minister on 26 March of this year, to find that he does not accept that responsibility, that they are not undertaking any research, that they are not undertaking any investigation into the building industry and that they do not believe it is their responsibility to do so. I believe, Sir, that a proper scientific survey would obviate what has happened in the past. When the economy has been on the upswing, we have found that not only has industry and the private sector overtaxed the building resources of the country, but also that it has been taxed particularly by the Government who has at the same time embarked upon an expansion programme. Then Sir, we find—as was pointed out by the hon. member for South Coast—when times are bad, when there is an inflationary cycle, it is not only the private sector which withdraws, but the Government as well. Thus, one ends up with a situation of peaks and valleys—peaks and troughs, as the industry refers to it—and I believe it is the responsibility of this hon. Minister and of his department to see to it that this does not happen.

Do you have a solution?

No, I do not have a solution. I do not believe that any one person or any one organization in this country has a solution. However, the point I am trying to make to the hon. the Minister is that he and his department are in the position where they should be able to conduct an investigation, to make projections, together with the assistance of the Bureau of Economic Research at Stellenbosch, and with the assistance of other organizations which are at the disposal of the hon. the Minister. They have to accomplish this so that projections can be made. I want to put a question to the hon. member. During the past few years some tremendous prestige buildings have been built. We are all very proud of them and I do not for a moment want to denigrate them. I believe the question which the hon. the Minister must ask himself, is whether the construction of those prestige buildings could not have been delayed a few years, and whether they should not perhaps have been erected now, at a time when the building industry is not fully occupied.

Where would we get the capital from now?

The capital could have been saved over the past few years. It need not have been spent over the last few years. It would not involve much more in the way of capital expenditure.

You are wise after the event.

No, it is not a question of being wise after the event. That hon. member is new in this House. [Interjections.] I recollect that 10 years ago the hon. member for Green Point and the hon. the Minister of Indian Affairs—when he was still on this side of the House—said exactly the same things to the then Minister of Public Works. I believe that only proper research, and a survey with accurate statistics can answer these questions.

I believe it is important for the economy of this country that that question should be answered if we are not going to continue with the cycle we have had. As the recession continues, it is most urgent that the hon. the Minister should embark on this immediately. Inflation is still running high and the situation is going to get worse as increased prices of building materials, petrol and transport charges work their way through. The survey of the Bureau of Economic Research shows that the value of work done and of uncompleted work has slightly decreased. The hon. the Minister will note that it is the value which has slightly decreased, but the volume has diminished considerably, because of the inflation crisis and because of the higher wages which mean that a lower volume of work is being done. It also means a lower profit to the industry.

I want to quote to the hon. the Minister from page 23 of the report No. 29 of the Bureau of Economic Research—

This lack of action on the part of the authorities, they feel, results in a debilitating effect on speculative and individual house building. Unless precautions are taken, they report, it will be difficult to house the population in the future. This is the responsibility of this hon. Minister. We need a building industry, and I believe that the hon. the Minister should be planning all the developments. If he is going to do it properly, it will be necessary that the projects of all the other Government departments should also be channelled through his department. When he does his research and his projections for the future he should know what the Department of Bantu Administration is going to need in the next five to 10 years, what the Department of Defence will need, what the Department of Community Development will need, what the requirements for the building industry are going to be, what the demands of the public sector as well as the private sector will be on the building resources that we have in this country.

The hon. member for South Coast says that we are overusing the industry at certain times, causing it to mushroom, to develop, to expand quickly, and it then perches on other sectors of the economy for the labour and for the skills that it requires. Suddenly the bottom is knocked out from under them and they fall back into the trough. The result is unemployment. These people then wander off and drift into other professions and industries, and when there is a sudden upsurge and the economy needs these people, one has to draw them back again. I commend these thoughts to the hon. the Minister. He is new in this post and he will have a new Secretary and I believe that we can have a new image. If cognizance is taken of the suggestions which will come from both sides of the House, I believe we can make this an efficient department a department which will work to the benefit of the country as a whole.

Mr. Chairman, I should like to associate myself with the felicitations and good wishes extended by previous speakers to the hon. the Minister, Mr. Howard and Mr. Du Preez. The hon. member for Pietermaritzburg South made certain statements here, and said that he was of the opinion that the department should stabilize the building industry. In other words, he wants a certain measure of consistency, without an upward or downward tendency, in the building industry. Any expert on the economy of a country would be able to indicate that one of the first industries to be affected when there is a slackening in the economic activities of the country, is the building industry. That hon. member now wants some magic wand or other to be made available to the local building industry, without their being able to control the world economies in that way. However, this is a task which is not a direct part of the activities of the Department of Public Works. As far as I can see the activities of this department are more of a technical nature and it should not venture into the economic world.

I want to express my appreciation for the net increase I notice in the department’s estimates, particularly the R2,25 million which is being provided for Bantu education within the White area of South West Africa, as well as for the particular expansion of the activities of the Coloured Education Department as far as new school buildings are concerned. At Grootfontein a primary school for Coloureds was recently completed and, according to the report of the Secretary for Public Works, I find that the costs incurred in building this school amounted to R95 452. It is also mentioned that the automatic telephone exchange was built for a contract amount of R3,975. I cannot accept it, for to my mind it appears to be inconsistent. I wonder whether the hon. the Minister could not give us an explanation in this regard. The fact of the matter is that the amounts in respect of the construction of the building, which has already been completed, and the one which is still under construction, are out of proportion.

I want to add that this new telephone exchange will meet a tremendously great need in the north of South West Africa. A long period of time has elapsed, and a considerable number of representations were addressed in regard to this matter. There was stagnation in telephone communications precisely as a result of the delay in the building of this telephone exchange. We in the Grootfontein district are very proud of the fact that such rapid progress has been made with the building since building operations were commenced.

Of course there is another problem, and that is the problem in respect of the accommodation for the local commando. I was told quite some time ago that the department is aware of the inadequacy of the present accommodation facilities at Grootfontein. I do not doubt that provision will soon be made for accommodation for the commando. The storage space for valuable equipment of the commando is at present very limited.

Before my time expires, I want to appeal to the hon. the Minister and the department for legislation which will make it compulsory to consider, when a building is being planned, making provision for a hotwater system employing solar energy. In case of Government buildings provision can be made for this without a need for specifications in the building regulations. It is no secret that the world has been plunged into an energy crisis. If regard is not had in future to the fact that our energy resources are limited, we could find ourselves in a difficult position. The field of energy, in which we have until now always made use of consumptive material, is of course highly dynamic. In the past, and at present, too, coal was used, and in future more use will be made of uranium. Consumptive material can only be used once as a source of energy; after that it is unusable. The sun as a source of energy, such as hydro-electric schemes, is non-consumptive. It can be used repeatedly, and it is available in unlimited quantities. In one square metre of sunlight there is approximately one kilowatt of power available.

One can imagine what saving there will be if we were, for example, to make use of solar energy in the grounds of Parliament. It is of course true that if we are able to diversify our sources of energy by making use of a non-consumptive source of energy, it will bring about a great saving in our coal resources. Of these non-consumptive sources of energy, solar energy is of course the most important. I want to request the department to take the lead in this regard by demonstrating to the rest of South Africa that it is possible to harness solar energy. Research in which the CSIR was also involved was carried out in the early sixties at the insistence of the Administration of South West Africa. I think that that research was successful. I wonder whether our department cannot take the lead again in this regard. Legislation can be proposed, and the department could be the first to begin with the establishment of a hotwater system in Government buildings employing solar energy. The building regulations could subsequently be proclaimed for buildings.

Mr. Chairman, the calm and peaceful atmosphere which is prevailing in this House this afternoon is, I think, a compliment to the hon. the Minister and his predecessor, because there was really very little criticism of the administration of this department on the part of the Opposition parties. Actually, there was no criticism. In fact, the PRP had nothing on its mind, and this afternoon one even found oneself agreeing with the hon. member for Pietermaritzburg South in regard to his idea of a Select Committee. I think it could serve a very useful purpose if such a Select Committee were to be appointed.

In regard to the Minister’s announcement this afternoon in regard to the appointment of a new Secretary, I should like to avail myself of this opportunity to express a word of thanks to Mr. Howard on behalf of the inhabitants of Acacia Park. I have had personal experience of the fact that he always listened to our problems with an open mind and a sympathetic ear. We appreciated this, and I wish him a pleasant period of rest and relaxation. To his successor, Mr. Mike du Preez, a former inhabitant of Acacia Park, we want to extend our sincere congratulations on his promotion. It was well-deserved. We look forward to pleasant co-operation with him in the days which lie ahead.

The fact that the Department of Public Works is seldom involved in dramatic events and is therefore less likely to catch the eye of or come to the attention of the general public, does not make it less important. On the contrary. The Department of Public Works is not only one of the oldest Government departments, but is also one of our most important, and for sound national administration and its smooth functioning it is essential that the Department of Public Works should be in good hands. Almost all the offices and buildings in the Republic in which the State carries out its business is owned or rented by this department. Now, it is also happily the case that this department has at its disposal a corps of experienced officials who, in spite of staff problems, are performing their task in an exceptional manner and looking after the interests of the State. If one considers the staff problems with which this department is being burdened today, it is in fact a little disturbing. One sees that on 31 March 1975 the following vacancies existed in the department: 59% of the professional posts were vacant, and 28% of the technical. This is a further deterioration of the staff position, compared to the previous year. This situation cannot continue indefinitely. Something will really have to be done about this problem, otherwise the effective functioning of the department will suffer. Now, I know that the hon. the Minister does not have any control over this matter and that it is in the hands of the Public Service Commission, but I am concerned because enough is not being done quickly enough to determine and rectify the remunerations dispensation of people in these scarce categories.

In the few minutes at my disposal I should also like to take a quick look at the actions of this department in helping to combat inflation. In the first place they have revised building norms and standards to make more accommodation available with the available funds. This had led to the sizes of offices being reduced by approximately 10%, and to officials being required to share offices. In respect of the saving in the planning of buildings, I should like to suggest something which the department could consider. It is to effect a saving on storage space by making use of the microfilming of records. It is a fact that filing and storage space which is necessary—and in the Government offices there is considerable storage space, as we all know—could be reduced by as much as 98% if this medium of storage is utilized. For example, it is estimated that we could save approximately R45 million annually if accommodation could be provided in this way for records. Because preparatory work has to be done in the planning stage of additions to buildings or of new buildings to effect this saving, I want to suggest that the Department of Public Works give specific regard to this aspect in each case, and have it investigated. The State has the services of experts in this regard at its disposal, i.e. the National Film Board, and I believe that if the necessary consultation takes place between the consumer departments, the Department of Public Works and the National Film Board, it will be possible to save a great deal of money.

We also see that the department has achieved a saving of 26% on transportation. This is an achievement of which one may justifiably be proud. There are other steps as well, but the steps which I mentioned, together with others, resulted in a saving of R10 million in the 1975-’76 financial year. This is really something on which we can congratulate the officials of the department. Since it is essential that we will have to save to an increasing extent in the days which lie ahead, there is one aspect which I want to take a closer look at and that is the question of fruitless expenditure. According to available information it would seem as though an amount of R52 668 will be debited against the Department of Public Works in the 1975-’76 financial year as fruitless expenditure. In proportion to the total amount spent by the departments, this is really an extremely small percentage. However, it is a cause for concern that such a thing can in fact happen and we all agree that if it can be prevented we must see what we can do about it. I could quote various examples, but I do not think it is necessary to do so. The fact of the matter is, however, that as a result of ostensible duplication, or of a conflict of departmental interests or policy, fruitless expenditure is being incurred. I know it is not always the fault of this department, but I do want to ask whether the department should not simply take the lead in this regard and see whether something cannot be done about the matter. Although it is difficult to eliminate this phenomenon entirely, it would seem as though there is a lack of the necessary co-ordination among departments. I do not know whether a co-ordinating committee exists which can look into these matters. I think it is absolutely essential that there should be constant coordination between the Department of Public Works and all the departments which have an interest in or are involved in the planning and construction of buildings. If something of this nature could be done in future in order to prevent this fruitless expenditure, we would be grateful.

In conclusion, on behalf of my constituency, I want to mention with appreciation that a police station and a court building are at present included in the five year building programme. We are also pleased that the tender date is May 1978 and that the contract period is only 21 months. These facilities will meet a very pressing need in my constituency and we are looking forward to the completion of these buildings as soon as possible.

Mr. Chairman, in the first place I want to express my sincere thanks to all hon. members who participated in the debate for the good wishes they extended to me and for the exceptionally good spirit in which the debate was conducted. I can give hon. members the assurance that although I do not agree with all their suggestions and ideas, my door, as well as the doors of my department, are open at all times, and that we can then debate these matters further.

Hon. members must afford me the opportunity of expressing my sincere thanks to my immediate predecessor, the present Speaker, for the competent way in which he controlled the department during the short period he was in charge of it. I should also like to convey my personal thanks to the hon. A. H. du Plessis, who has since retired from the Cabinet and who served this department with great distinction and self-sacrifice for a relatively long period and displayed very good leadership as the person in charge of the department. I have already thanked the retiring departmental head in person, but I just want to reiterate that his guidance in this department was of exceptional value. Allow me also to thank all the members of the staff of the department. They are responsible for this department being such an excellent department and rendering such good service in so many fields.

Mr. Chairman, from the debate which was conducted here you would have been able to infer at once that I am a Minister who finds myself in a singular predicament. On the one hand I must prove to this hon. House that inflation is being effectively combated, and on the other hand I must at the same time also prove, particularly with reference to the criticism levelled by the hon. member for South Coast, that this department is not unreasonably delaying building activities at a time when the building industry is on a low level. In the few minutes at my disposal I want to try to reconcile these two matters. As far as the combating of inflation is concerned, the department is setting an exceptionally emulable example. I cannot again enumerate everything here; a full account is given in the reply to the question which was asked in regard to our fight against inflation and also in the document which is being distributed by the committee controlling the programme of action. However I just want to mention as an example that during the past year or two we have gone out of our way to conduct a fresh survey of the accommodation needs of the departments. We requested each department to try to manage with the accommodation they are occupying at present, and the net result was that, with the wonderful co-operation of the departments, we were able in this way to save the enormous amount of R661 000 per annum in rentals.

Then, too, there is the well-known fact that the funds which we requested for the new year were reduced by 22%. This has led to this department having to postpone a considerable number of projects for periods of between six to 24 months, and consequently we are doing so. However, I want to emphasize at once that this in itself will not have a major effect on the building industry. It is true that this department is the largest single employer as far as building activities are concerned, viz. 13% of all building activities in the country. If one places it in the context of national activities it means that the curtailment in our funds is 22% of 13%, in other words less than 3% of the total building activities in the country. Since the position is such that building activities are falling off, I re-examined the position and asked my departmental heads to see whether we cannot bring building activities forward in some places, and it is now a pleasure for me to announce that to alleviate the need, projects to the amount of just over R4 million have been brought forward on a scattered geographical basis. This is being done out of savings, and is therefore not inflationary. In addition my department appealed to the Treasury, and in fact succeeded, in obtaining an additional R2½ million for Coloured schools for the present financial year.

In my opinion my department is succeeding well in playing its part in the fight against inflation and, on the other hand, making the resultant deprivation as light as possible.

†Now I come to the matters raised by the hon. member for Pietermaritzburg South and the hon. member for South Coast. I do not want to minimize the seriousness of the problem of cyclical fluctuations in the building and construction industry. In an effort to combat this problem—and it is a serious problem—the Building and Construction Advisory Council, which is closely associated with my department, and the Building Industries Federation commissioned the Bureau for Economic Research of the University of Stellenbosch to investigate this problem and allied matters. I am pleased to announce that a comprehensive report by Mr. W. F. Kilian of the bureau was completed in April 1976. The bodies that commissioned the investigation will now consider the report and make recommendations to me in due course.

*When I have considered this report—and it is a very intensive and comprehensive report—I will be better able to discuss this matter fully when my Vote comes up for discussion again in this House next year. I hope the hon. member for Pietermaritzburg South and the hon. member for South Coast will accept this undertaking from me.

However we must not present an escapist argument. Let me say to the hon. member for South Coast in all fondness that he did in fact present such an escapist argument by wishing to place all the blame on the Government. My department is of course only partially responsible for Government buildings. There is definitely another side to the picture, and an accurate picture. I want to refer hon. members specifically to a long report in The Argus of 28 May 1976 and The Argus is most certainly not a newspaper which would go out of its way to protect this Government. Under the headline “Who is to blame for the cut-back” the following was said—

The article went on to say—

And this is the truth. This is the actual position. The article continued—

The article then pointed out the real problems—

Then the writer went on to quote a well-known authority, Mr. D. E. Baker, managing director of the Murray Stewart group. This person drew attention specifically to the low productivity in the building industry. I do not want to take up the time of this House unnecessarily, but I just want to quote what was said here—

I have not been in this post long enough to profess to be an authority in this sphere. I am merely quoting what was said by an authority in this sphere, a man who has practical knowledge. This article concluded with the following question: “What of the future?” I quote again—

Therefore, if we are partially or fully able to counteract the problem of fluctuations, and if the industry as such will also take critical stock of itself, there is a possibility that we will in future be able to iron out some of the problems of the industry.

I want to refer very briefly now to the specific points raised by hon. members.

†Firstly, I want to point out to the hon. member for Pietermaritzburg South that at present approximately 90% of all design work is carried out by private consultants. The department has senior architects, quantity surveyors and engineers who do the briefing in respect of departmental requirements and carry out the cost and quality control. The construction of major works is executed by public tender, and the department is not engaged in major construction work.

*I also want to tell the hon. member that I am not in favour of the Department of Public Works having its own tender board. I prefer the department to fall under the present Tender Board because that board has a reputation for objectivity. I should not like it to be said that this department has its own tender board and that a measure of objectivity has been lost in the process. Nor am I in favour of this department no longer being under the wings of the Public Service Commission. If every Government department proposed something of this nature, we would eventually have no need for a Public Service Commission, nor for any central co-ordinating body.

The hon. member also referred to the chancery which is being built in Umtata.

†As the Transkei will become an independent State, the necessary accommodation for the South African embassy in Umtata must be provided as a matter of urgency. Mr. Chairman, the service comprises mainly the erection of three houses and additions to the present office block of the Commissioner-General to serve as a chancery. The actual requirements were finalized only recently. The costs of the project will be kept as low as possible. At this stage we do not have any idea what the actual cost will be.

*I want to add that if the hon. member compares these costs with the costs of certain foreign embassies, he will concede that I am correct when I say that the work we are doing in Umtata is being done economically and as cheaply as possible.

In comparison with other countries, yes, but not in comparison with the present local costs.

Mr. Chairman, I differ with the hon. member. We are doing it as economically as we can under the circumstances. One other factor must also be taken into consideration, viz. the speed at which the work has to be done. Then, too, there is the question of competitive tenders.

As far as planning is concerned, I want to tell the hon. member for Pietermaritzburg South that the department is already planning on a five year basis. The department is therefore completely conversant with the needs of other departments. The five year programme is constantly being updated. The hon. member for Verwoerdburg and he can come to me again to discuss the question of a Select Committee. Hon. members will recall that the idea of a Select Committee for Public Works has already been debated in this House this year and rejected. The hon. members can come to me to discuss the matter, but I think it will require very sound arguments to convince me. I want to say this to him candidly at this stage.

As far as the hon. member for Boksburg is concerned, I want to tell him, in respect of unimproved sites which this department has at its disposal in municipal areas, that although we do own the sites, the right of disposal is vested exclusively in the Department of Agricultural Credit and Land Tenure. At present we own the land. If we were to sell it, if development were to take place there, and we were then to require the land again, we would have to repurchase it at great expense. Consequently we will have to subject such land to an extremely close scrutiny before we sell it. That hon. member, as well as the hon. member for Somerset East, referred to the parliamentary buildings and to the grounds around Parliament. I want to give this hon. House a brief explanation of the present position and the Government’s decisions in regard to this matter.

The development of the parliamentary complex, in order to make more effective accommodation available for parliamentary use, has been thoroughly investigated during the past few years, and the Government has now reached the following decision: Firstly, as far as the parliamentary building itself is concerned, the building of a chamber for use during the opening of Parliament will not be proceeded with since the use of the House of Assembly Chamber appears to be completely effective. Apart from that, the construction of such a chamber on the site of the parliamentary buildings could limit future additions to these buildings very considerably. Secondly, there is the Marks Building. The calling for tenders for the proposed new office building in Plein Street behind the Marks Building has been programmed for September 1977. Consequently an early start will be made in June 1977 on the demolition of part of the buildings behind the Marks Building to obtain a regular site for the new buildings. The two departments which are at present accommodated in the Marks Building will then be moved elsewhere in order to obtain sufficient space for members of Parliament who at present have offices in the Marks Building. After the completion of the new office building in Plein Street in 1981, the Marks Building, in its entirety and unaltered, will be employed for parliamentary use.

I make so bold as to say that I am not a timid person. Yet I am definitely afraid to touch the beautiful façade of the Marks Building, that portion which has its frontage on Parliament Street. In addition it has been decided not to purchase the site on which the St. George’s Grammar School is located at the present stage, because the State does not require it immediately. However, the owners have once again made representations in regard to this matter to the Department of Public Works. Their representations are at present receiving consideration. But I must say that I sympathize with the present possessor of the site, inter alia because it is a church body.

Various bodies have over a period of many years made representations to the Government for the restoration of the old Good Hope Theatre. It has been decided, when the Government Printer vacates the building according to expectations in 1981, to proceed with the restoration, after which the building will be utilized for parliamentary purposes.

An investigation is being instituted into the possibility of developing Stal Plein in such a way that it will form a pleasant unity with Tuynhuys, the Hendrik Verwoerd Building and the old Good Hope Theatre. Since the site between Stal Plein and the Hendrik Verwoerd Building belongs to the municipality, this body also has an interest in its development. Negotiations are at present in progress between the municipality of Cape Town and the Department of Public Works, and as soon as an agreement has been reached, the matter will be submitted to the Cabinet.

The hon. member for Omaruru referred to the luxury finish that was being given to buildings. I can give him the assurance that in these days very close attention is being given to this matter. The idea is that a luxury finish is unnecessary in cases where it is possible to make do with simpler buildings. In regard to the hon. member’s question on building activities in Namaland, I could mention that talks have already been held between the Secretary for Public Works and the Secretary for Coloured, Rehoboth and Nama Relations on the possibility of giving the local inhabitants of remote areas of South West Africa—where established building undertakings do not exist—a greater share in the construction of smaller school buildings. A modus operandi is at present being worked out, and will quite possibly be tried out on a limited scale as early as next year.

I think that I have more or less replied in full to the questions which were put by the hon. member for South Coast. However, he also put a question in regard to the drawing up of national standard building regulations. The obligation of implementing such measures is not of course vested in my department. It is the duty of the Bureau of Standards. According to my latest information a special staff has been appointed to expedite the project with a view to introducing legislation as soon as possible.

I should like to thank the hon. member for Somerset East for the kind words which he addressed to my department. In particular I want to thank him for the very comprehensive and interesting historical survey he gave of the Good Hope Theatre. From what I have already said he should also have been able to gather what the attitude of my department is to that beautiful legacy of ours. The hon. member for Langlaagte praised the requirements laid down by my department in respect of plots in new towns. It is the normal and compulsory procedure, with the establishment of a new town, to approach this department in regard to its requirements, and the department is obliged, with a view to expansion, to state its requirements. I can give hon. members the assurance that if we already have either built-up sites or sites on which buildings are still to be erected and we are of the opinion that the new areas can be served with the facilities which we already have at our disposal, we will not unnecessarily ask for additional land. The hon. member also requested that we purchase the paintings of young artists for our embassies. This department is of course a great patron of our painters, and we are constantly purchasing paintings for buildings abroad as well as at home. At the stage at which one purchases it, is perhaps a less important painting, but eventually the work is going to become famous and very valuable. In this way we are the proud possessors of many Pierneefs, Boonzaaiers, Irma Sterns and other paintings. Therefore we are taking pains to act as patrons to our young artists. In fact there is a special art committee to which this task has been entrusted.

The hon. member for Etosha raised a very important matter, viz. solar energy. At present tests are being carried out at Grootfontein in regard to the question of solar energy. The use of solar energy is at present being investigated by the National Building Research Institute, and as soon as they have obtained positive findings and it is possible to apply it in practice, my department will also, where possible, consider its use. As far as commando accommodation is concerned, I can assure the hon. member that the matter is receiving attention and that suitable accommodation is being sought.

I want to thank the hon. member for Verwoerdburg for the kind words he addressed to my department, as well as for the fact that he pointed out that this department’s fruitless expenditure is exceptionally low. Since this is the case it is very definitely indicative of one thing only, i.e. of efficiency within the department. As far as the fruitless expenditure for which utilizer departments have to accept responsibility, I want to give the hon. member the assurance that my department remains in constant contact with the planning committees of other departments with the object of keeping this fruitless expenditure—also as far as utilizer departments are concerned—as low as possible. However, we do not always succeed in doing so. The hon. member himself lives in a difficult area as a result of the dolomitic substratum there which in some places is false and which then gives rise to fruitless expenditure.

As far as the hon. member’s reference to microfilming is concerned, I want to tell him that my department is already giving attention to the matter and that the OM division is working on it. Every government department has to determine its own needs in this regard and see to it that they are met.

I think that I have now, to the best of my ability replied to all hon. members. I am in a difficult position. A year ago I could issue instructions to the Whips. Now, however, they issue instructions to me and have cut short my time as well. I want to conclude by saying that the department began with a commission which was very narrow and insular. Owing to developments in our country, and also as a result of the good work of the department, the department has expanded, so much so that the legislation of the three professional disciplines associated with the building industry falls under my department. Another important body, the Building and Construction Advisory Council is the department’s baby. It does wonderful work. The Secretary is ex officio chairman of that body. In addition we liaise directly with the building industry and we have very good relations with these people. We also liaise directly with the Bureau of Standards and other bodies. I am not an empire builder, and I shall not try to do anything artificial in this regard, but I see a period approaching which will increasingly make my department a leader in the field of the building and construction industry.

In this regard I do not think I can do better than to quote what a particular expert in this field said during an important symposium on this matter. I am referring to the address of our retiring secretary which he delivered in 1972 on a specific occasion. He concluded his address as follows—

This is strikingly put by a person who knows this department and the building industry inside out. I would not go so far, as the hon. member for Pietermaritzburg South demanded of me, to be the leader in this sphere. However, I want to say in all humility that we shall try to the best of our ability to play an important role in future. I want to give the hon. member the assurance that, as far as the Kilian report is concerned, if the parties concerned come to me with recommendations, I shall go through them with a fine-tooth comb to establish whether my department can play a greater part in that respect as well. Hon. members must, however, take into consideration that my department is also experiencing the deficiency which is being experienced in the Public Service, viz. a shortage of professional staff. However, we shall do our best, within the limits imposed upon us by this problem, to serve the various Government departments as well as the public to the best of our ability.

In conclusion I want to say that, even at this stage the department is considering—and I say “considering” because no finality has yet been reached in this regard, precisely because of the shortage of professional staff—giving certain projects to private professionals from the planning stage to the supervision stage, professionals who have proved in the past that they are capable of bearing the full responsibility. As far as private consultants are concerned, I can inform hon. members that something of which I am particularly proud is the integrity of my department in that I have never heard a complaint from any member of this House concerning an unfair procedure being adopted in allotting work to private consultants. The department has a special committee within the department which takes care of this matter, and in my opinion the work is being done so efficiently that no one has ever lodged any complaints with any legitimate content in this regard with me as Minister.

Votes agreed to.

Business interrupted in accordance with Standing Order No. 22.

House Resumed:

Progress reported and leave granted to sit again.