Mr. Chairman, hon. members who participated in the discussion of this vote last week, impressed upon the House the heavy demand for timber in South Africa. Hon. members pointed out that many more trees would have to be planted in order to meet the future demands for timber. I wonder whether we are always aware of the importance of the forestry industry in South Africa. There is practically no facet of our domestic economy in which the use of timber does not play a very important role. When we start discussing the use of timber, we would not know where to begin and where to end. Unfortunately, as a result of the shortage of timber, the use of timber has been done away with in many respects, and in many cases timber has already been replaced by other materials. This is also done because timber is often considered, and not always justifiably, to be less durable than other materials. Here I have in mind our building industry, where timber has been replaced almost entirely by steel. I am sure that hon. members will agree with me that in this process of replacement we have lost a great deal of character and warmth in our buildings. That is why, when a prestige building is erected, whether a house or any other building timber is still used.

In order to make our people more timber conscious, the former hon. Minister, the hon. Minister S. P. Botha, launched the Green Heritage year, which was a great success three years ago. That effort is still followed up by the annual “tree of the year” idea, which is run by the Green Heritage committee, appointed by the Forestry Board. During 1975 the yellowwood was the tree of the year. This year, 1976, it is the pine tree and for next year, 1977, it is the white stinkwood tree which has been nominated tree of the year.

The Forestry Department does its share in promoting the planting of trees. The department concentrates in particular on the promotion of tree-planting in the dry regions. For this purpose the department began a nursery at Bloemhof three years ago. A nursery of a similar type is also being considered for Tsumeb in South West Africa. The department is also making trees available at special prices to farmers to fit in with their farm-planning schemes.

In the few minutes at my disposal I want to draw attention to a problem which I consider a very serious one, namely the problem of wattle penetration in the Transvaal Highveld. Hon. members are aware that during the late ’forties and ’fifties there was a tremendous demand for wattle bark, which is used in the tanning industry. As a result of the immense demand for tanning bark in those years and the resultant high prices which this bark fetched, the farmers of the Transvaal Highveld planted wattle trees on all their unproductive and waste land. Wattle trees become established very easily. As a result of those plantings the seeds were spread far and wide. They germinated and we have the situation today that wattle trees have established themselves in every possible and impossible place. Later on in the ’fifties there was a total slump in the demand for wattle bark extract. As a result it was no longer profitable to fell all the isolated and unplanned plantations.

As a result, the particular interest in the production of wattle bark fell completely flat. At present it can only be produced profitably in the highly productive areas like the South Eastern Transvaal and Natal. As a result of the distribution of the seeds, wattle trees came up everywhere in the Eastern Transvaal Highveld and the situation today is that valuable agricultural land is being seriously threatened by wattle penetration.

If serious attention is not given to this problem, a situation will develop in which thousands of hectares of ground will be unproductive and quite useless for agricultural purposes, or otherwise it will have to be deforested at very great expense. With a growing population which needs more and more food, South Africa cannot afford such a situation. It is necessary to see to this matter in good time and to take steps to prevent further large-scale penetration. We need the cooperation of all bodies and persons for this. The private individual will have to do his share, but it is also necessary for organized attention to be paid to it by organized agriculture, for example, and by the department.

Today I want to ask the hon. the Minister to see to it that this problem is thoroughly investigated and to see to it that ways and means of combating it are found. Perhaps a publicity campaign could be launched to draw attention to the threat posed by this penetration. Incentives could be introduced to enable farmers to eradicate the species. I hesitate to suggest it, but I believe it is the interests of the country that we consider a system of subsidization to eradicate wattles. I also want to ask that the wattle penetration on Government property be attended to. In road reserves on the Transvaal Highveld in particular, there is a serious amount of wattle penetration, and the roads administration will have to see to this.

I am aware that the department is concerned about the wattle penetration. That is why wattle trees—they belong to the acacia family—have been removed from the department’s variety list. In addition, tests are already being carried out with herbicides. In my opinion this is a very serious matter, a matter which could cause major problems in future. That is why it is my contention that this matter deserves urgent attention at a high level. I therefore want to request the hon. the Minister to make a thorough inquiry into this problem.

Mr. Chairman, I should like to associate myself with the representations made by the hon. member for Middelburg. He made out a case for combating the invasion of land by alien vegetation, especially by wattle trees and other varieties of the Acacia family. Those trees are invading our indigenous forests, something that is happening commonly throughout South Africa. Of course, it is not only Acacia that is a menace in this respect. Hakea and other alien vegetation are becoming just as serious a pest, especially in our mountains. In some mountain areas conditions are already so critical that mountaineers can hardly gain access to the mountains. This is a direct result of the enormous obstructions formed by thick hakea undergrowth. From the report it is evident, however, that a considerable amount of money has been spent on combating this problem. Of course I feel that we shall have to devote more and more serious attention to the matter.

Actually, I want to talk about outdoor recreation. At the moment there is a steadily growing need for, and an increasing interest in, outdoor recreation amongst South Africans. More and more people, old and young, are to be found in the veld and in the mountains these days; people with their rucksacks on their backs, people who go rambling, hiking and mountaineering and who even do rock-climbing with the aid of ropes. As far as I am concerned, this is a good and healthy interest and it encourages a love of the veld, nature and the land. The Department of Forestry has more land under its control than any other Government Department has and for this reason it is the department which is pre-eminently suitable for the promotion of the aspect I am discussing at the moment. Consequently, I find it gladdening that the Department of Forestry has already made provision in various ways for this specific need of people. Members of ramblers’, hikers’ and mountain clubs are allowed to enter certain forestry areas, solely for this purpose.

I notice that to date as many as 39 083 persons visited the Drakensberg area since the beginning of the year under discussion. This is a good indication of the need for this specific sort of recreation. The Department of Forestry is also actively engaged in gradually creating a national hiking trail, one which is to be established for public use. The idea is—as of course we all know—to have a hiking trail running from the far north, all along the Soutpansberg and then along the Drakensberg and eventually up to Cape Point. Trails running from the national hiking trail are being envisaged of course. One of these will include the Cedarberg. In the Eastern Transvaal there is the Fanie Botha hiking trail that was visited by 1 283 persons during the year under review, 1974-75. I expect the number of visitors there to increase to a very large extent in the foreseeable future.

It was my privilege to accompany the hon. the Minister, the Secretary of Forestry as well as some of their officials on an inspection visit to the first 23 km of the proposed hiking trail in the Hottentots-Holland mountains. That first part of the hiking trail extends from the Nuweberg to Sir Lowry’s Pass. We went walking there. Various other hon. members also took part in the hike. What we appreciated in particular was the great personal interest shown by the Secretary for Forestry, as well as the enthusiastic manner in which he practised the sport of mountaineering. I see that the hon. member for Carletonville is occupying the Secretary’s attention over there, so he cannot be aware of the compliments he is being paid. It is very important to us that the mountain huts should fit in with their environment and that they should also be durable. Therefore it was gratifying to see that several of these mountain huts were constructed of the best building material, such as the stone of the particular vicinity. It was pleasing to see how well the beautiful mountain hut in the Nuweberg fitted in with its environment. Excellent facilities have also been provided for groups visiting this mountain hut. The mountain hut at Hartbeesvlakte is also constructed of stone and it fits in well with the environment. One would very much like to see these facilities detracting as little as possible from nature. The construction of the hiking trails, however, is too elaborate in my opinion. Apart from the fact that it will be possible to drive the vehicles of forest workers and fire-fighters along these hiking trails, I think that too much work is being done to make these trails easier for the hikers.

The biggest problem will be the effective combating of erosion and of fires in particular. One could already see the signs of erosion on some of the paths in our mountains. I want to recommend the construction of more embankments across these hiking trails especially on slopes, so that the water may be diverted to the vegetation and run off into the veld. It will be possible to prevent soil erosion in the mountains in this way. Another principle that is being followed is to construct the trails as close as possible to the slope contours. The less steep the slopes are, the smaller will be the chances of soil erosion.

The booklets made available to hikers—such as the one I have here for the Fanie Botha hiking trail—are really outstanding publications. They contain all the necessary information such as a map, rules, hints, additional information in connection with the geology, the flora and fauna of those parts and even a short history of the area. I want to thank the hon. the Minister and especially the Secretary for Forestry for their special interest in this scheme.

Another aspect I should like to raise is the question of wilderness areas. According to the annual report there are only three areas which have been set aside as wilderness areas, these being the Cederberg and two areas in Natal. There are, however, six other areas intended for setting aside. I assume that these areas have been set aside in terms of the provisions of section 7A of the Forest Act for the preservation of forests, the natural scenery, and also for the preservation of forest produce. I should like to know why all the indigenous natural forests cannot be declared wilderness areas as well. In spite of the fact that the older trees are felled to manufacture products, I am nevertheless of the opinion that such forests can also be declared wilderness areas. According to the annual report nature reserves have also been declared, such as those at De Mond State Forest and De Vasselot Nature Reserve. I should like to know what the difference between these wilderness areas and the nature reserves is in practice. It would appear to me as though there is overlapping as far as the use of these two areas is concerned. If I remember correctly, certain areas were to be proclaimed as wilderness areas and were to be managed as such without being opened to the public. There were also to be other areas that would be developed as recreation spots for the public. In my opinion the natural forests ought to be suitable for that. One would also like to see the policy of the Department being applicable to all the areas so as to combat all alien vegetation in the natural forests, the wilderness areas or nature reserves. Disturbance by man, as I understood the policy, was to be restricted to a minimum. Only a limited number of paths were to be allowed and the number of persons to be allowed into these forests, was to be limited to a minimum. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, the hon. member for Benoni will pardon me if I do not react to what he has said, because I think that everyone agrees with us that the facilities that became available during the term of office of the previous Minister of Forestry, Mr. Fanie Botha, are one of the results of the efforts to create order from the chaos that existed previously. I shall return to that a little later. I first want to correct an idea that took root with the approval and confirmation of the hon. member for Benoni. After all, there are different species of acacia. The one that causes the penetration is the one that is not paying, viz. the one generally known to us as the “vaalwortel”. The “vaalwortel” appears on the list of noxious weeds, and is the one that must be eradicated and combated. But the Heavens preserve the government or the man who wants to declare the Black wattle—the ordinary wattle-bark tree from which we get tanning bark—a noxious weed, because this type is a very paying proposition today since the price of bark is very high. I do not think that the hon. members who referred to it, meant that it was the Black Wattle they wished to see eradicated and against which action should be taken, but in fact the “vaalwortel”, which is related to the acacia species and is found in the Western Cape. The “vaalwortel” is a noxious weed and is recorded as such.

I should like to confine myself more to the problem that has arisen and that was raised by previous speakers. In the ’eighties we shall be heading for a period in which we all foresee there will be a shortage of timber. In this respect I want to associate myself with the remarks of the hon. member for Mooi River, viz. that at the moment the forester is saddled with a problem, because although there is still a fair amount of land available, other problems arise. The hon. members for Humansdorp and Ermelo both furnished figures of the suitable and less suitable land available. More than 1 000 sq. miles of land is still available for afforestation. Therefore the problem is not that planting cannot take place. Efforts have been made to provide for the provision of funds. What worries the forester today is the fact that his investment is a long-term investment. Over the long term, when plantations are at a stage of growth the prices as well as the demand can fluctuate. The result is that the forester makes a very precarious investment. As a result of this investments must be very cheap.

We have countries in which interest-free loans or loans with rates of interest as low as 2% are available to prospective foresters and persons who are willing to establish plantations. These loans are granted on demand by the various governments. After the Forestry Council and the previous Minister of Forestry had done their best, we were promised that an amount of R3 million would be set aside for the purpose of assisting young foresters. However, only R0,5 million of that amount has been made available. In any case, that amount is totally inadequate. As the hon. member for Mooi River has also said, the roundabout way of obtaining money with which to establish a plantation is such that hardly anyone is eligible for those loans. Hence the reduction of the amount of R3 million to R0,5 million. We should all like to see an improvement in this regard. That is the one aspect of the matter.

It is common knowledge that the forestry industry, which is not an insignificant industry, but a prodigious earner of exchange in the economy of the Republic, was until very recently, still in an absolutely chaotic state. Some people became very wealthy, while others became destitute as a result of the chaos that prevailed in the forestry industry and the underhand dealings that took place there, especially when it came to selling. At the time of the establishment of the Forestry Council in 1968 it was generally accepted—I never accepted it—that there would be an entirely new dispensation. Now I want to say, to the credit of the Forestry Council, that it did at least rectify one aspect of the chaos that prevailed there: that is that at least they can now convene all the people who form the interest groups in the forestry industry. However, in the course of the discussion it became evident that these persons may only approach the Minister in an advisory capacity. For example, they do not have more say, as a control board has, in the proportionate distribution of quotas. They do not have a say in finances in the sense that they can guarantee a price to a producer, as is the case with the control boards established in terms of the Marketing Act.

Now I should also just like to rectify one matter. It is generally known that I champion the idea of a control board for the forestry industry, because it is the only body that, through legislation, could bring about orderliness in marketing and cultivation and create better prospects. There is no reason why it cannot be done, because a control board can be established in terms of the Forestry Act too. Such a control board would also result in control over prices. It is very clear recently that prices are stabilized only because the central co-operative has found an export market for the commodity provided by this very roundwood industry. In this industry the supply far exceeds the demand as a result of factors the origin of which is in fact questionable. However, the fact is that at the present moment the supply of this species of wood exceeds the demand and the industry has had to gear itself to establishing an export policy. As a result of the mediation of the Department of Forestry and the previous Minister of Forestry, the forestry industry gratefully accepted the signing of a large contract with Japan and the fact that three shiploads of chips had already been exported to Japan. As a result of the price negotiated in this connection, a measure of stabilization has resulted in the price of all the other species of wood. However, this did not occur as a result of the establishment of the Forestry Council. On behalf of the producer we should at least like to see the Department of Forestry and the Ministry offering the producer a sound, guaranteed long-term price policy. In my humble opinion the producer can get that only if he has a forestry control board.

Now, I want to say in defence of Satga, the South African Timber Growers’ Association, that they have never asked for a control board. I accept that. But they have never been clearly informed about the implications of, and the advantages accruing to them from, the establishment of a control board in terms of the Forestry Act. The result is that other organizations are now springing up and encouraging members of Satga to break away from Satga and join them—merely to cause further confusion. Then Satga is accused of supposedly having asked for a control board.

I just want to state here categorically that that is not the case and that Satga is innocent of that. If anyone is guilty of a request to the Minister, not only now, but also previously, that a control board should be established, then I am the guilty party. Nobody has ever been able to convince me that any other body, even though statutory—bodies similar to the Sugar Board and other boards established in terms of special acts—functions better than a control board, because in South Africa, stability, happiness and peace have come about after single-channel and organized marketing have been introduced by way of the control boards. All these other bodies, even those established by law—and that includes the Forestry Council—have never yet been able to lay down and maintain a policy capable of satisfying every facet of the industry concerned, because they have never been able to create sufficient harmony among the seller, the manufacturer and the producer to enable them to agree on a reasonable return for the producer. I want to ask the hon. the Minister to go into the question of whether it is not desirable, and whether the time has not come, for the farmers to be informed about the advantages to them which a control board entails. I also ask that the Forestry Council, in spite of all the good work it has done, be converted into a control board so that it can be given more teeth and react as it should react so as to be of great benefit to all facets of the industry. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, right at the outset I want to pay high tribute to the Department of Forestry for what it has created for us in South Africa in the form of plantations. The department also deserves praise for the timber which it produces. I also want to thank the department for the dedication and thoroughness which one observes at the various plantations as far as organization, methods of work and zeal are concerned. I spoke to a great many people attached to the Department of Agriculture, and it always strikes me that they have a different approach to that of other people. If one speaks to an ordinary politician who has been in Parliament for years, and observes his approach and his mental frame of reference, and one then speaks to someone attached to the Department of Forestry, it is as if there is a cool breeze caressing one’s cheeks as when one walks through a plantation and feels the cool, damp air playing across one’s face. There is all the difference in the world, and I think that the approach one finds in the Department of Forestry is a spirit which it is vital to instil in the other sectors of our population.

I am very pleased that the Department of Forestry came up with the idea of creating hiking trails. Various members have spoken about them, but when I am walking along one of these trails, like the one in the Zoutpansberg, or the one in the Nuweberg—I want to put this case very strongly and I do not want hon. members to misunderstand me …

Then one does not need a Bible.

Yes, that is what I said to the hon. member. One does not need a Bible then to remain a believer. One does not need a Bible then to bring one to a realization of the Almighty, whose presence is in everything one sees. If I had to picture to myself the Garden of Eden, one would only have to show me the trail from the Nuweberg to Sir Lowry’s Pass. Just see how the wonder of nature and the majesty of God, the Creator, unfolds before one’s eyes! It is a profound pleasure, an urge, an impetus and a motivation which brings home to one that one is in the presence of something sublime. It is not my intention today solely to pay tribute to the fact that these trails have been created—not to the physical aspect—but I also want to pay tribute to the nobility of the idea inherent in them. I want to pay tribute to the noble idea behind this, of bringing people into contact with a part of the country where there are forests and where the trees are planted.

These are usually the parts with the highest rainfall and they are the parts which are usually not ruined by agricultural and horticultural activities. The idea behind this is the following: Let the people hike there in order to experience the majesty of nature and the Creation. I do not know where the idea originally arose, but I want to pay tribute this morning to those people who came up with this noble idea, so that today anyone of us can go hiking.

I am pleased to say that nowadays our forestry industry is a self-sufficient industry, except as far as importing hardwood for furniture is concerned. We grow sufficient trees for the manufacture of paper. We can keep pace in this regard. I am informed that by the end of this century we shall have to triple our production of paper wood in order to keep pace with the increased demand for paper. This is also a highly capital-intensive industry. In order to give an idea of the cost involved in the processing of roundwood—so I read in the report—I may mention that it requires a capital investment of R6 324 per employee. The total value of sales and processing of timber into timber products amounted to almost R413 million in 1974-’75. It is therefore a mighty industry in our country. The greatest significance is that this production, this income, is derived from parts of our country which are geographically unsuitable for other types of intensive cultivation. It is therefore a utilization of otherwise unproductive land. It is a capital-intensive industry and an earner of money. We must bear in mind that it takes more or less 20 years for one pine tree to reach maturity so that it can yield half a cubic metre of wood. We must also bear in mind that one can only manufacture a quarter ton of paper from each tree. Furthermore, it is also true that it costs approximately R2,50 or R3 to bring that tree to maturity among the other trees. Bearing all these facts in mind, I want to state the following point: Every day when one opens one’s post, one sees the mass of paper sent to one in the form of circulars and literature. I say quite openly that I throw much of it into the wastepaper basket there and then. We are simply overwhelmed by a flood of things which are absolutely worthless. However, this is a product which comes from dedicated labour—from trees which had to grow for at least 20 years and which cost money. They grew and flourished out of a precious resource, our soil. I think we must pay serious attention to this. I know you are going to stop me, Sir, but one simply has to open the newspapers—I am not referring now to the Press as such; I am referring to our resources—and one reads stories which are complete nonsense. One must also realize that sometimes a few hundred thousand copies of one newspaper are printed. Can we, therefore, allow one of our valuable natural resources to be wasted in such a reckless manner? No. In my opinion, the time has come for us to give attention to this immense wastage of one of our most valuable resources.

What about something like cigarettes, or anything which is packed in paper or cardboard? Sometimes a layer of cardboard, then a thinner layer, and then an even thinner layer, are used. Surely this is unnecessary. I think we must consider seriously a revaluation of or a new approach to the utilization of one of our most valuable resources in our beloved fatherland.

Mr. Chairman, this is not becoming a matter of habit. It is sheer coincidence that I have to speak after the hon. member for Carletonville each time. It is also sheer coincidence that up to now I have been able to thank him each time for what he has said here, and this holds good for what he said here today as well as for what he had to say here a few days ago. I think he made out an exceptionally good case here today.

†I think he spoke very well today about a subject that concerns a tremendous number of us, and here I refer especially to the last portion of his speech. If I understood him correctly he was making a plea for fewer newspapers in South Africa.

Fewer and smaller newspapers.

It is also entirely coincidental that I should be following his speech up after he has raised a subject such as that on which I am not regarded by some as an authority. There is also another matter he mentioned, and that is the question of “junk mail”. I think that all of us are being inundated with “junk mail” in the form of advertisements and I think some Government department will, at some stage, undoubtedly have to give consideration to this matter. Perhaps the Department of Post and Telecommunications is the most appropriate department. I do think that the fact that we are all inundated with an incessant stream of advertising of a commercial nature is a ridiculous waste of paper and something which affects the realm of forestry and the natural vegetation of our country. I therefore have much pleasure in saying that once again today I agree with my friend, the hon. member for Carletonville.

I want to ask the hon. the Minister for some information and guidance. I want to ask him what, in effect, the difference is between a wilderness area and a nature reserve area. As I understand the position, there is a very marginal distinction, and I wonder whether it would not be possible for the two areas to be combined and to be administered as one. I imagine that the purpose of creating a wilderness area is to restore an area that has been proclaimed to its original ecological state. If that is correct, then I think it should not only be restored to its original state as far as the vegetation is concerned, but that the indigenous animals—i.e. the animals that were there before they were removed, chased away or destroyed by man—should also be included in the concept of a wilderness area administered by the Department of Forestry. I would like to think that in time we would be able to proclaim large portions of the Republic as wilderness areas. Hence my suggestion that nature reserve areas might be included so that the primaeval state before disturbance by man can be restored.

I have in mind one particular area of this kind, an area with which I am very familiar, and that is the Sederberge. In my estimation, if ever there was a beautiful place in South Africa where the primaeval state and ecology can be restored, it is those beautiful areas near Citrusdal. I want to say that one of the reasons why it is such a beautiful area is that it is comparatively unspoiled. The reason why it is unspoiled is that it is so far from the so-called civilization, which is supposed to exist in the cities. I can think of no other reason than that the people who go to the Sederberge are people who are lovers of nature and who go there not with a view to despoiling it, but with a view to appreciating it. That is why it is a matter of considerable concern to me that other areas of equal beauty nearer to developing cities are areas which are in tremendous danger of being despoiled by the activities of so-called civilized man.

Nearer home—and when I say “home”, I am speaking from the point of view of the Cape Peninsula and Parliament, here in Cape Town—one has an area such as Hermanus, where the local authority has gone out of its way to create mountain paths of considerable beauty. Again, possibly because it is further from the cities than other areas to which I shall refer, those mountain paths are not only beautiful, but also well kept. They are comparatively pollution-free. The only conclusion to which I can come is that very few people use them. If ever the hon. the Minister wants to have a look at an area where a local authority has beautified a natural amenity such as, in this case, the mountains, he should go to Hermanus and walk up those mountain paths to see how well they are kept and how beautiful the place is.

But then, Sir, one comes to areas immediately adjacent to us, i.e. the Table Mountain area and the Silvermine mountain area. These areas fall under local authorities. Here I am afraid one cannot say the same as one can say about the Sederberge or about the mountains around Hermanus. In the case of Table Mountain a multiplicity of departments are involved, some of them Government, some of them provincial and some of them local. All of these have an iron in the fire. I wonder whether it is not appropriate to suggest that the Department of Forestry should perhaps, in the case of the administration of its portion of Table Mountain, make way for the Cape Provincial Administration’s department of nature conservation. Somehow or other, some of the authorities that have a stake in the preservation or the utilization of Table Mountain, should disappear. There should be an overall authority. On the other hand, perhaps the Minister might give consideration to his own department taking over full control of the administration of Table Mountain. At any rate, what has to be done is that as much of that mountain range as possible must be restored to its original state. I think consideration must be given to fencing the mountain to keep out the loafers who exist in caves and in the forests on the mountain. Consideration has certainly got to be given to the evils of pollution. If ever there was a mountain in this country of ours that has been despoiled by the activities of man, then it is Table Mountain. The pollution, of all kinds and descriptions, on that mountain is quite appalling. Apart from that, these mountain goats, or whatever they are, called thars, were introduced. They are not indigenous, and are apparently responsible for much of the erosion that takes place on this mountain.

I should also like to refer to the Silvermine mountain range. This, too, is a beautiful area. It is partly under the control of the Tokai forestry reserve and partly under the control of local authorities like the Divisional Council and the Municipality. Here, in contradistinction to Hermanus, the mountain paths are not well kept. They are very often washed away. Very little care and attention is paid to them, and the pollution, because the area is near to the city and therefore accessible to the public, is something which has to be seen to be believed. Somehow or other, perhaps on the initiative of the Minister, certain authorities must be created in regions to look after the mountainous areas, wilderness areas or nature reserve areas, whatever you want to call them. Maybe it is for the Minister to take control of these areas. If it is not, then perhaps he can initiate regional control, but there must undoubtedly be development in the direction of greater centralization and less decentralization than has developed over a period of years.

I am most concerned about what I see on the South Peninsula mountain ranges. When I talk about the south Peninsula mountain ranges, I talk specifically about the Silvermine Reserve and the mountains adjacent to it. I can remember climbing those mountains as a child when they were still comparatively unspoilt. The local authorities then started to build a countour path. That contour path is, however, never kept in a decent state of repair. It is almost impossible to walk there properly and the people, of all races, who use it are the worst polluters of any kind I have ever come across. The result is that the beautiful caves in the mountains above Muizenberg and Kalk Bay are filled with beer cans or plastic containers of one kind or another. There have been some enterprising young children in the Peninsula who last year approached me and asked whether they could not undertake as a special task the clearing out of some of the cave areas on a Sunday. I managed to get the necessary permission from the local authorities concerned and these young people went up there by the hundred and cleaned out the caves of the pollution left behind by their seniors and adults, their so-called betters.

Mr. Chairman, I should very much like to associate myself with what the hon. members have said. I think they have every reason to wax lyrical, as the hon. member for Carletonville has done, about the activities of the department here in the Republic. I think they have every reason for this, because I am aware of all the activities. This is undoubtedly something of which every citizen can be proud.

On the other hand, it is quite clear to me that in recent years the activities of the department have reached a nadir in South West Africa. I want to begin by saying that South West Africa offers a very wide field for research in all spheres of the state economy. For instance, we have already been successful there in water purification. Those hon. members who represent parts of Windhoek in this House, are aware that at one stage they were using water there that came from the sewerage system and was distributed to the consumers in Windhoek in the water network. I want to attribute it to the enterprise of the researchers concerned at the time who undertook the work there. In this respect the researchers of the CSIR, in collaboration with the Administration of South West Africa, did pioneering work when the research was initiated there in the fifties. Of course, here in the Republic, we are very proud today of that pioneering work and the opportunities created there for our researchers.

Pioneering work was also done in other fields, for example, in the sphere of agriculture and in the karakul industry. All this is to the advantage of the local economy, the agricultural industry and also the karakul farmers in the Republic. On the basis of this, considerable progress has been made here in the Republic as well since then. I therefore want to advocate that more attention be devoted to research in connection with tree species for our dry regions and to the breeding of certain fast-growing species of trees. Valuable work has been done in this field in the sphere of agriculture, to the economic advantage, too, of the citizens of South Africa. If we could develop a species of tree for our varying climatic regions, especially our dry regions, it could be of great advantage to the whole of Southern Africa. Now it seems to me that the Department of Forestry in South West Africa is not using the opportunity to do the same things in South West Africa that the other State Departments are doing to the advantage of the whole of Southern Africa. All the timber for use in the mines in South West has to be imported from the Republic; it even comes from Natal and the Northern Transvaal to mines such as those at Grootfontein and Tsumeb. In my opinion, such a thing is completely unnecessary, because it is in fact possible—if the department has the right attitude towards research—to grow the necessary and suitable species in South West Africa itself. The northern part of South West Africa is by nature a dense, well-timbered area. For instance, the most beautiful tamboti and other indigenous species of wood grow there. The natural character of that region is such that it is in fact possible to grow the right species of tree there. All that is required there are persons with the right attitude towards research and enough enthusiasm for their task.

However, it seems to me that the department is afraid to send researchers there. Either the department is afraid, or the persons who have to do the research are afraid. Of course we do not want frightened people in South West Africa. People who are afraid ought rather to get out of South West. They will only be in our way if a confrontation results there at some stage.

I am referring to this phenomenon because it is extremely disappointing to me. At one stage there was great enthusiasm. Hon. members know what the position was before when forestry affairs were still being dealt with by the Administration of South West Africa. I have in mind in particular what was being done there at that time in regard to the control of driftsand in the Walvis Bay area. The Administration of South West Africa still puts R20 000 at the disposal of the municipality of Walvis Bay annually. That is money that is used for the stabilization of driftsand in that area. Prior to that the Department of Water Affairs had been afforded financial support by the Administration of South West Africa with regard to their experiments in connection with the control of driftsand. Stakes were planted on the crests of dunes in an effort to stabilize driftsand in that way. After the administrative assimilation of South West Africa the Department of Forestry took over and continued the task.

Much spadework was done then with a view to the stabilization of the dunes. Great pains were taken to acquire certain plants from overseas, especially from Israel. Certain experiments were carried out with those imported plants as well. As far as I am concerned, the results thereof, the supervision of the experiments, and so forth, are matters which belong with the Department of Forestry. They are all administrative matters for the Department of Forestry. It seems to me, however, that everything there is only a failure, or else the whole situation is falling apart.

For example, in the quarantine area north of Grootfontein—in the Okavango area—a start was also made with experiments with certain types of fodder tree. During my last visit to that area, it seemed to me that that experiment, too, was doomed to total failure. The department has gone to considerable expense and trouble to plant those particular trees there. Young trees were brought there from everywhere in South Africa, and I think they were even brought from abroad. As far as I am concerned, nothing has come of the whole enterprise. We can find evidence for the fact that this department’s activities have reached a nadir, in the drop in the budget figures. Last year R111 000 was budgeted for; this year it is only R102 000.

The mining industry in particular is interested in the growing of a species of tree whose wood may be used as mine props. A mining company tried to carry out experiments in this connection, but owing to the fact that they did not plant the right species of gum tree there, their experiments failed. In my opinion this is a matter that the department can surely tackle, because they are aware of the different varieties of timber and they are also better equipped to carry out such experiments. This could be of great benefit to the mining industry and also to the whole economy of South West Africa if the correct species of tree could be grown there. Therefore I shall leave the matter in the hands of the hon. the Minister.

Another question that ought to enjoy the attention of the hon. the Minister, is the right orientation of the research personnel, because unless one has enthusiasm for research, one is simply incapable of making a success of it. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, I should like to express my appreciation for the very constructive and positive discussion of this matter. It is definitely a privilege to hear such fine and pure arguments under such calm circumstances. This is an important industry and I want to express my particular appreciation for the tributes which were paid to the department. All too frequently the hard work done by our officials in the interests of the country escapes the attention of our people. Therefore these officials do not always receive the necessary appreciation for their work, which also has to serve as encouragement.

I shall try to reply to the questions of every hon. member, but I want to draw the attention of hon. members to the fact that the Ministers were told not to speak for an unnecessary long period of time. If a little matter therefore appears to be undisposed of in the process, I would be pleased if hon. members would subsequently draw my attention to this. I am saying this because I did not, during the previous debate, reply to specific questions put by certain members. However, I want to give them the assurance that I shall try to reply to them in writing. However, I find it difficult to do justice to hon. members’ questions in a limited time.

As far as the Department of Forestry is concerned, it is necessary by way of introduction to refer to its task, extent and importance. I do not think the public is always aware of this. Therefore I think it is essential that I draw attention to this a little. It could also serve as further information for hon. members I want to begin with the promotion of the forest industry as such. It is the principal commission of the department to promote the forest industry, which is so strategic and vitally important to this country. This is being done by producing itself, by providing instruction, by rendering assistance to other producers, by operating sawmills, and by doing research work.

There is also the question of training, and in this regard I just want to draw the attention of hon. members to the fact that the faculty of forestry at the University of Stellenbosch is the only faculty of its kind. The department makes an important contribution to the activities of that faculty. There is close co-operation between the department and the faculty as far as research is concerned. Consequently the faculty produces the only graduates who can be absorbed into the country’s forest industry to carry out, as professional officers, the task of research and proper planning of all the facets of the Department of Forestry. Then, of course, we also have Saasveld, where the foresters are trained. I do not want to elaborate on this, but I do want to point out that we hope to expand Saasveld in the years which lie ahead. There is a heavy demand for these trained foresters, and this applies not only to my department, but also to the private sector. The training of Coloureds, on the same level as the training at Saasveld, is also very important to my department, and I have already given my consent in this regard. In the Western Cape, where we are not always able to attract the necessary White persons, it is necessary for our Coloureds to be trained to fill the deficiency. I therefore want to point out that I have already approved the establishment near Saasveld of a training college for Coloureds in the near future. We hope to attract enough of the right people to make a contribution to this important industry. While I am dealing with the question of training, I want to mention that I also gave my consent to the Forestry Council for the training, for what we call task orientated training, of Bantu as operators in the sawmills who work with heavy machinery for example. There is a shortage of trained people in this field, and this training will take place at Sabie in the Eastern Transvaal. These things are being done so that we can also use our Black people and Brown people more usefully on various levels and involve them in the important functions of the Department of Forestry.

Another matter to which I want to refer is the question of conservation. Apart from the forest industry as such, i.e. the planting of trees, there are the improvements, the research, the extension and apart from the production and the processing aspects, we of course have the other very important function, which hon. members have already mentioned, namely, the question of conservation. I shall go into some of these aspects in a little more detail shortly. We do not always realize how important this task of the Department of Forestry is, for large areas, high rainfall areas and particularly mountainous areas are controlled by the Department of Forestry, and arising from this there is also the question of recreation. Hon. members have already referred to this. This is something which is becoming increasingly important as the number of people in the country increase.

I now want to refer briefly to the general tasks of the department, and I wish to elucidate certain aspects in a little more detail. In the first place I wish to elucidate the functions of the Forestry Council. Hon. members referred to this, and it is very important that the task of this body, which has been functioning as a statutory body for three years now, should be clarified and that the progress which is being made should be pointed out. The timber and forestry industry is reasonably labour-intensive. Timber in the round for operating industries provides work for approximately 55 000 employees. I think an hon. member has already referred to that. These include all races, and these people are earning an annual amount of R46 million in salaries, wages and rations. Of these workers 49 000 are non-Whites, and they are earning an annual amount of R23 million in wages and rations. Since labour in the timber and forestry industry represents a high expenditure item, the Forestry Council decided that positive attempts must be made to give purposeful attention to the training of non-White labourers. I have already referred to the fact that it has been decided to plan a training centre at Sabie. It is hoped that it will come into operation in January 1978. The estimated capital expenditure on this centre will amount to approximately R400 000. The annual administrative costs of the institution are estimated at approximately R90 000.

Another bottleneck to which the Forestry Council gave attention was the question of the price. Prices are very important, and various hon. members have already referred to them. The price which the timber grower obtains for his product, has for many years already been a bottleneck in the forest and timber industry. In the past the timber grower had to attempt, through his association, to negotiate a better price for his product, and although this method of price negotiation was sometimes successful, it was by no means satisfactory since the timber growers were still of the opinion that the price adjustments which were obtained, were too small and too late. It is the function of the Forestry Council to give consideration to the calculation of prices for timber in the round. The Forestry Council appointed a permanent committee of experts to make recommendations to the council on, firstly, the basic approach which has to be adopted in the calculation of fair price ratios in the round, methods which could be employed to adjust timber prices according to fluctuating factors influencing the calculation of prices and, thirdly, the determination of prices for timber in the round when I address such a request to the council. To keep abreast of rapid changes in economic conditions, interim price adjustments on the basis of applicable price index figures will be considered by the council. This is a matter in regard to which there is a difference of opinion in the industry itself. But I think the Forestry Council is engaged here in a very important task for the industry, and I hope that hon. members will in future take more and more cognizance of the positive contribution which is being made, for this links up with what the hon. member for Vryheid said, and to which I shall refer again, i.e. that there are various approaches in regard to the question of price, and that this function is already being fulfilled by the Forestry Council. The Forestry Council is also mindful of the fact that the country may have a shortage of timber in the years which lie ahead and, apart from attempts to encourage afforestation, which are already being considered by the council, the council will in future have to give specific attention to rationalization within the forest and timber industry. The aspects which will receive special attention here are, firstly, the desirability of marketing on a regional basis to deliver the raw material as inexpensively as possible to the processing points, and, secondly, more effective utilization of the land by making fuller use of the tree.

†The hon. member for Mooi River said in one of his speeches that we were wasting too much. I want to give him the assurance that this board is doing everything possible, through research, to have the best possible use made of our forestry products.

*There is the question of improved exploitation and processing techniques, the reducing of waste timber in plantations, factories and so on to wood chips. Attention on a broad basis will definitely be given to these matters. I can assure the hon. member of that. The Forestry Council also plays an important part in the determination of research needs within the forest and timber industry. Two members of that council were appointed during the year to serve as a pilot committee which will give attention to a key programme of research on behalf of the forest and timber industry.

This is merely a very short summary of the work of the council. In addition, I could just mention that the question of exporting, in regard to which there are misgivings in various circles, is also being studied.

†The hon. member for Mooi River also mentioned this and we have asked the Forestry Council to investigate the question of further exports, because right at the moment the market is glutted to a certain extent with forestry products and that in certain areas, especially in the eastern and northern Transvaal, roundwood for mines are moving very slowly. People are upset about this. But the Forestry Council are investigating this. I want to say right now that I will have to decide later whether we should go in for further export. I have seen these people already, but we want a very thorough investigation before I shall agree to such a step. On the other hand we must realize that it is very important. It was mentioned, especially by the hon. member for Ermelo, that uncertainty exists in the industry, and if we cannot come forward and tell people that they will be assured of a market, and that they can make use of exports without putting our internal market in a difficult position—we will have to weigh this up because we may need this export market to give this assurance to the growers and get a more stabilizing effect in the market. I want to give the hon. member the assurance that I will go into this very thoroughly. The matter is being investigated by the Forestry Council at the moment, and we hope to do the best in the interests of both South Africa and the industry as a whole.

*Another matter to which I want to refer briefly is the question of planting permits, since this was also a matter which was raised by some hon. members. I wish to furnish a little information in this regard. Although the administration of this legislation is the responsibility of the Department of Forestry, this is done, however, with close liaison with the Department of Water Affairs, and all matters are considered by committees consisting of senior officials of both departments. Since the statutory amendment came into operation, 1 211 applications for permission to undertake new afforestation have been received and considered. These applications apply to a surface area of 320 094 ha. Hon. members will recall that the legislation was introduced for the purpose of controlling afforestation, particularly in those areas where water conservation for urban and industrial use and for food production was of cardinal importance. In the consideration of the applications further considerations were given to these aspects. Of the total number of applications received, 1 115 in respect of 282 000 ha were unconditionally approved over a period of five years. Twenty-three of the applications, in respect of an area of 19 073 ha, were in respect of afforestation in critical catchment areas, and it follows that these applications had to be very strictly screened. Consequently it was decided to investigate the effect of further afforestation in these areas on the future water supply potential of the catchment on a strictly scientific basis. To date investigations in seven critical catchment areas have been completed and afforestation permits for the afforestation of 4 178 ha have been issued in these areas while the area in such regions in respect of which applications have been rejected, amounts to 14 895 ha.

Finally, 73 applications were received for the afforestation of 18 176 ha in catchment areas where the water supply position was already critical, so critical that it was risky to allow any further afforestation, and in this case consent to undertake afforestation was therefore withheld. There is still a difference of opinion for people to ask the Minister to pay compensation in cases where people are prohibited from undertaking afforestation in terms of this legislation. However, I cannot conceive of our being able to move in this direction, but I want to give hon. members the assurance that this matter is being dealt with very carefully, and I shall return in a moment, as far as the hon. member for Mooi River is concerned, to this aspect because he also referred to it. He indicated that he felt that in his case the matter was not dealt with judiciously. It is perhaps necessary to consider an area more specifically and not generally, but to investigate smaller areas and their afforestation possibilities.

The question of low interest loans to timber growers is another matter to which I want to refer briefly. The hon. member for Vryheid also referred to it, and I want to tell him that this matter occasionally creates problems for the department, as a result of the tremendous development in the country and the shortage of funds during the past year. As the hon. member said, there was only approximately R500 000 on the estimate last year. This year we have succeeded in having an additional amount of R92 000 allocated for this purpose. Perhaps this is scant comfort, but in view of the considerable need, we will at least have a small additional amount available. However, I am continuing to devote my efforts to this cause, but the department also has to motivate the funds which it requests, in exactly the same way as other departments. However, I can give hon. members the assurance that I shall do my best in regard to this matter.

I should like to furnish hon. members with a little more information as far as this matter is concerned. The scheme is limited to certain magisterial districts with an adequate rainfall, and as hon. members will appreciate, it was made available to White persons, companies and their subsidiaries which carry on forestry operations. The amount of loans for which application may be made, is limited to R37 500 per person, i.e. 500 ha at R75 per ha. This amount may be utilized for one or more of the following purposes in order of priority: In the first place, for the establishment of a private forest; in the second place, for the management of a private forest; and, in the third place, for the re-financing of debts incurred in respect of the establishment and/or the management of a private forest. I have a host of information here on the various areas. I just want to mention that only five applications totalling R56 910 have been rejected. Unfortunately it is a fact that the majority of applicants could not be accommodated. There were 71 applicants during the past year and they applied for a total amount of approximately R1 532 000. This is an indication that people are indeed interested despite the problems experienced in the industry. Some of these applications will have to stand over, and I am very sorry that this state of affairs does exist while we experience the need and while the industry has to expand. In this connection I want to point out that it is encouraging that people are still interested while there is a recession to a certain extent. If we want to bring about a certain measure of stability in the industry, we have to hold out some prospects to our people. We are unable to give any guarantees. This was referred to by the hon. member for Ermelo, but it is impossible to give a guarantee to any enterprise in this country, whether it is in respect of mining, commerce, manufacturing and farming. However, our people want to have a reasonable measure of stability. I have already referred to export and the stability it entails. However, we shall have to look for new markets. In this connection I want to point out to hon. members that while we have a slight recession at the moment, we are in the process of investigating further exports and we shall also have to undertake research to find new ways of using timber.

The hon. member for Carletonville pointed out that we are wasting timber by manufacturing too much paper. I do not want to elaborate on this matter any further. The position is that the beneficial utilization of timber is being given priority in order to introduce a stability factor. In this connection I want to refer to the question of wood-frame brick veneer houses we introduced this year. Since the 1920s the Department of Forestry has erected a large number of houses and other buildings with timber walls. These buildings have been found suitable in all respects and enabled the department to solve the housing problems of its employees to a large extent. The tenderer for the training centre at Sabi undertook to use this building method. In this connection we are going to use far more timber and it is also going to lead to a much cheaper construction. In order to keep pace with the latest developments and techniques in connection with this kind of construction, two senior officials of the department attended the world conference on the use of timber in houses which was held in Vancouver, Canada, during July 1971 and made a study of housing conditions abroad particularly in connection with the technical and social economic possibilities and advantages of wood frame houses and wood frame brick veneer construction for South Africa. This matter has been discussed and the outcome was that certain developments took place in this direction. In recent times increasing use is being made abroad of wood frame houses with a single outside veneer of bricks. This is being done in order to render the outside wall durable and to reduce maintenance costs. This method of construction has considerable economic advantages and there are no technical or economic reasons why wood frame brick veneer houses will not be generally accepted in South Africa. I am particularly emphasizing this matter today because we are experiencing housing problems in this country and because, in many cases, we are dealing with outmoded ordinances and regulations prohibiting people to utilize available construction methods in this country.

Recently I saw on television that one of my voters, a person by the name of Stassen, has a firm which concentrates solely on the manufacturing of timber houses. This is not the wood frame brick veneer house. He told the viewers how these houses were being built and said there was a great demand for these houses.

However, there is another matter the Department wishes to bring to the attention of the public. I am concerned that, after thorough research has been undertaken plans have been drawn up and that the Sawmill Association and the timber industry as a whole are going to great pains to introduce this sort of thing but that no publicity is being given to it over the radio or in the Press. I am glad about the publicity Mr. Stassen received for his houses. The television people happened to meet him because he had a house on display at the Witwatersrand Show.

It should not be difficult for these houses to be generally accepted because they fit in better with our traditional building methods. As a matter of fact, the general shortage of housing, which is accompanied by critical shortages of various building material or trained artisans from time to time, makes it advisable for alternative building material and methods such as the wood-frame brick veneer construction to be used. Since complete instructions in connection with the construction of these houses in South Africa do not exist as yet, the Department, in conjunction with the South African Sawmillers’ Association, requested the South African Scientific and Industrial Research Council to draw up a detailed technical handbook for the wood-frame brick veneer construction. I have here the handbook which I introduced on the occasion of a function held in Pretoria and which was introduced here in Cape Town by the Secretary of the Department. In this publication a builder is told in detail how a house such as this should be constructed. I want hon. members and our communications media—the Press and the radio—to give a little attention to this matter. The Sawmillers’ Association is also helping in this connection, not only in the interests of the forest industry, but also in the interests of South Africa.

I find it tragic to see how much publicity is given during the weekend to someone who has burnt down a house or a building. One reads about it in one newspaper after the other and the news is disseminated over the whole world. However, when people are contributing to the housing of people—which is really the problem—in a constructive manner no mention is made of it in the newspapers. One does not hear about it over the radio either. Perhaps this is the spirit of our times, but it is nevertheless essential that we should pause and consider this general negative approach which has manifested itself among our people. Dramatic attention is given to negative action, but little publicity is given to the provision of amenities. Therefore, I hope that these few thoughts will serve our forest industry and the country as a whole by making some positive contribution in this regard.

I also want to refer to the question of fire-fighting. This matter has been mentioned by some of the hon. members—for example, the hon. member for Mooi River and, I think, the hon. member for Somerset East. I want to say a few things in this connection. I shall also refer to it briefly when presently dealing with their contributions. I just want to mention that a committee appointed by the Forestry Council to investigate the utilization of aircraft to extinguish forest and mountain fires, is at the moment gleaning information on various systems in which helicopters or conventional aircraft are used. Up to now indications have been that the Canadair CL 215 “water thrower”, as it is called, will be the most suitable. More information is being obtained in this connection from abroad. Officials of my department will visit Canada later this year and I have also asked them to visit America to make further investigations in this connection.

The Americans are using a different method, a method which cannot be of any value to us at the moment. They use aircraft for making fire belts. They spray chemicals along certain belts so that fires cannot easily bum across these belts. This has the disadvantage of still having to transport one’s firefighters to certain areas, while if water had been used the fire would be extinguished. In that case one need not make use of fire-fighters as well. It is provisionally estimated that five aircraft are needed to introduce an effective service. If they are purchased in terms of the Canadian export promotion credit scheme, it will cost approximately R1,5 million per year over a period of 12 years. In addition, there is the operational costs which have to be added. Hon. members will therefore appreciate that this is an expensive undertaking and that we will have to co-operate with other bodies. One of the hon. members referred to this very matter. For instance, we may co-operate with agriculture as well as with certain of our homelands in which veld fires cause a major problem. In the provisional report of the Forestry Council the committee recommended that the forestry industrial fund be boosted by increasing the present levy on timber sales. In this way money will be made available for the introduction of a firefighting service of this nature. However, the Forestry Council has asked that the Committee should first complete its investigation and should in particular undertake a study to ascertain whether there are sufficient landing strips and water surfaces in the forestry areas. This study is now being undertaken by the agents for Canadair, and the idea is for their findings to be verified by the Air Force.

†That is the position at the moment with regard to this very important approach to fire-fighting, and especially the fighting of forest fires, and I hope that in years to come we shall make progress in this connection. I may add that we also have in mind the possible use of helicopters in the fighting of forest fires. There seem to be possibilities in this direction, and this will be thoroughly investigated too.

*I want to refer briefly to the question of hiking ways. This matter was mentioned by, inter alia, the hon. members for Benoni and Carletonville, and I want to express my appreciation for the fact that hon. members displayed the initiative to bring this matter to the attention of the public. The hon. member for Carletonville said that when one deals with the Department of Forestry one breathes fresh air immediately. If one wants to experience this in practice, one should go on to the hiking ways. This is an important question and I am very glad to be able to say that fine progress is being made on this score. I read a report in this connection last week-end and it is very interesting to see how welcome these hiking ways are and the increased interest there is in this connection. I want to point out that we have made a great deal of progress. I think 200 km of hiking ways have already been planned.

It has been said that these hiking ways are probably too easy. The hon. member for Benoni is a mountaineer and he finds the hiking ways somewhat easy. Apparently the hon. member for Carletonville does not need a road for walking either. He walks much more comfortably when he is not walking in a road, but as far as the general public is concerned the fact that there are not decent roads creates problems. The hon. member for Benoni said we should not make these hiking ways too comfortable and should not spend too much money on them. I think that is what he said. Last time he joined us in a walk he wanted to know from us where his wife was after we had reached the end of the hiking way. His wife got lost. He will find that there are many people who get lost along the road very easily. We do not say a man will deliberately go on a hiking way to get rid of his wife, but we should not make these hiking ways in such a way that this can happen. However, I am saying this in a light vein. This is a very interesting development, and I appreciate the interest displayed by hon. members in this connection. I also have to mention that I have received letters in which people complain that these hiking ways are too difficult and the distances too long. Unfortunately some of us have also experienced this. We are not used to it and we shall have to adjust the hiking ways in some respects to make them more attractive for those people who are not so well equipped for walking. I want to express my appreciation towards the Hiking Way Board as well as towards hon. members for the interest they displayed in this matter.

I now want to refer briefly to the problems of hon. members.

†Firstly, I come to the hon. member for Mooi River. He referred to the contract with Japan. I have told him that we are investigating a second contract. He was of the opinion that quite a bit of, as he put it, less favourable timber was used as chips. I do want to point out that there is a specification in this regard. The chipping regulation requires diametres of 5 cm, i.e. round about 2 inches, which is smaller than the wood normally used for mining timber or poles. The use of waste in the form of branches or crooked wood, and so forth, is still very costly. It is a question of making this an economic concern. I have no doubt that as we proceed, we will be able to make better use of our available wood. I want to tell the hon. member that I had a visitor at the beginning of the year, an expert from America. He told me flatly that we in South Africa are wasting 40% of our marketable timber or wood. We are looking into that; we are doing research in connection with this matter and we do hope to improve on this in the future. I do want to tell the hon. member too that local requirements are still fully met. He thought that this venture was perhaps a bit premature. However, the position is that at the moment we are over-supplied on the local market. I dealt with that already.

*The hon. member for Humansdorp referred to the extent of the industry and the amount of timber which is being supplied. He also referred to the list of priority areas which indicates that we still have great tracts of land in this country which can be used for afforestation. I can assure the hon. member that we are giving attention to this matter. He wanted to know by whom the afforestation is going to be done. I have pointed out already that a great many people have come forward and applied for loans. In spite of the problems we are experiencing in this industry, we find that some interest is being displayed on the part of the public. The idea is that 50 000 ha of forest should be planted every year. The State will undertake one-half and the private sector the other half. I cannot say exactly what progress has been made up to date, except that the State is lagging behind a little as far as its share is concerned. When one considers the figures in respect of applications for loans, it is quite clear that the private sector has fulfilled its obligations up till now.

The hon. member for Ermelo also referred to this matter and wanted to have more certainty. I have already said that we cannot obtain absolute certainty everywhere. The Forestry Council is moving in this direction. I shall come back to this later, or perhaps I should deal with it now as the result of the plea we have had from the hon. member for Vryheid to the effect that we should establish a marketing council. I am taking cognizance of this. However, I want to tell hon. members that everyone has its own opinion on this matter and that we do not want to enforce decisions from above on communities or interested parties. On account of the plea made by the hon. member for Ermelo I just want to say that I have taken cognizance of the differences of opinion between the various groups—the South African Treegrowers’ Association—S.A.T.G.A., and the Forest Owners’ Association. The hon. member for Vryheid also referred to this matter. He said that the members of the one group are being enticed away by the other, and that problems consequently arose. The hon. member for Mooi River also referred to this matter.

† want to tell the hon. member for Mooi River that I have written letters to both those associations. I did that because they lodged their complaints with me asking me to take action. I have requested them now to come together and to discuss their problems, preferably with the Secretary of Forestry as Chairman. I hope they will in that way be able to solve their problems. However, there are real difficulties, difficulties which cannot be denied. I just cannot see how we can have two different organizations with the same objects and aims competing for members. I hope their discussions will take place and that we will have a report from them in due course. I also hope the position will not arise in which it will be necessary for me to refer the matter back to them. I realize this is an important affair. Nevertheless, the department and I will try our utmost to get the two organizations to come to some agreement, even if they have to form an entirely new organization. The situation of two different groups with the same objects combating each other, is something which cannot be tolerated to continue any longer.

*As far as the question of permits in the Umgeni area is concerned, I want to tell the hon. member for Mooi River that I have taken cognizance of his complaints. As far as I am concerned, he has a point here. However, I do not want to go into details now.

†The situation is that the department has dealt with the river system as such. Within the limits of the system, I believe, perhaps too big a permit was given, especially with reference to a specific subdivision of the area concerned.

*I have already replied to the matters raised by the hon. member for Somerset East. As far as the question of fire-fighting from the air is concerned, I hope that excellent progress will be made. The hon. member for Middelburg referred to the Tree of the Year, which is next year going to be White Stinkwood. The hon. member is a tree grower. I hope he will be able to help us to advertise white stinkwood. This is really a beautiful tree and to my mind it is important that a specific tree is singled out every year and that growers be encouraged to plant that specific tree. People who grow trees themselves are, to my mind, best equipped to carry out this task.

The hon. member also referred to the encroachment of black wattle. I appreciate that this is a major problem. I presume the hon. member for Middelburg and the hon. member for Vryheid have somewhat conflicting interests in this specific matter. If I remember correctly, it is not the silver or the grey wattle which is mainly responsible for this encroachment; it is the black wattle. I can inform hon. members that research is being undertaken by the Department of Agricultural Technical Services in connection with biological control. In Australia an insect has been discovered which destroys wattle seed. However, wattle is being commercially cultivated in Natal and in the Eastern Transvaal. The problem is therefore that, if an insect is imported to prevent the spreading of wattle, it would not only destroy the wattle seed in the district of Middelburg—where people want to combat the increasing spreading of wattle. Major problems could be created in that the entire wattle industry could be affected detrimentally. Wattle timber is in many respects quite useful and is used for a variety of purposes. I can assure the hon. member that the matter is being investigated and that the department will do its utmost to try to find a solution for this problem. The hon. member for Benoni also referred to the hakea problem. As was said by the hon. member for Humansdorp a few years ago, the only solution for this problem is that the hakea should be chopped out. Hon. members who are fond of walking in the mountains, will know where hakea is sometimes found. Therefore, we experience a major problem in this connection. The hon. member for Benoni also referred to the national hiking ways system and furnished me with useful hints in this connection, to which my department will definitely give attention.

†The hon. member also wanted to know what the difference was between a wilderness area and a nature conservation area. The hon. member for Simonstown referred to the same matter. I shall come back to this. However, we have much more wilderness areas than those mentioned by the hon. member for Benoni.

*The following wilderness areas have already been approved: the Cedarberg, the Upper Nkomasi, Ndedelelo—I have not been there myself, but I presume it is somewhere in Natal—Ntendeka and Groendal here in the South-Western Cape. The hon. member wanted us to declare indigenous forests wilderness areas, but to my mind it is generally a little too small. I shall indicate in a moment what the difference is between a wilderness area and a nature conservation area. I think I have already dealt with the problems of the hon. member for Vryheid. I indicated what the position was in respect of loans and that we are going to do our utmost in this regard. The hon. member still feels that a control board would be best despite the excellent work that is being done by the Forestry Council. The hon. member made it clear that it is not Satga which caused the problem, but that he had set the ball rolling himself. The Forestry Council has achieved a great deal through voluntary agreements in respect of the quotas in order to stabilize the market, and they are proceeding with this excellent work, particularly in the South-Eastern Transvaal. I have already dealt with the arguments raised by the hon. member for Carletonville, but I should like to thank him for his inspiring words, both as far as the hiking ways and the department as a whole are concerned.

I now want to deal with what was said by the hon. member for Simonstown regarding the wilderness areas.

†A wilderness area must be an unspoilt area showing little or no trace of the works of man, must be large enough to give visitors a feeling of isolation, may not be entered by visitors with mechanical transport, will not have huts or other amenities—visitors must be completely self-reliant—and is set aside to conserve a whole landscape. A nature reserve is set aside to protect single plant species, for instance, or a plant community. Secondly, it may be quite small and may be managed intensively. There is no specific prohibition on the development of amenities for visitors. Those are the basic differences between the two areas.

In connection with Table Mountain I want to tell the hon. member that I and my department take a very keen interest in this mountain and I am much concerned about what is taking place there. I agree with the hon. member that we should have control by one body. As a matter of fact, at the moment we are busy consulting with people and we hope that some agreement will be reached. According to my department, they are very well-equipped to control Table Mountain, because they control similar mountains throughout the country. However, I must indicate that we have some difference of viewpoint from time to time. At Queen’s Port, on the eastern side of Table Mountain, foresters erected a plaque in honour of the forester who planted the trees there. But today all are concerned with the removing of those trees. Therefore, as we develop, our approaches change.

*I want to assure the hon. member for Etosha that we are definitely paying attention to the problems of South West Africa and to the matters mentioned by him. We shall do everything in our power to give a little stimulus to the department for the tasks awaiting it.

Votes agreed to.

Vote No. 31 and S.W.A. Vote No. 20.—“Justice” and Vote No. 33 and S.W.A. Vote No. 21.—“Prisons”:

Mr. Chairman, before the debate begins I should like to make two announcements. I think they are announcements which hon. members would like to discuss. That is why I am making them at the start of the debate.

The first announcement concerns the retirement of Gen. M. J. Nel, the present Commissioner of Prisons. Gen. Matthys Johan Nel celebrates his sixtieth birthday on 18 June 1976 and will retire on pension on 30 June of this year, after a colourful period of service of almost 39 years. Gen. Nel joined the department on 1 October 1937 after having served in the then Special Service Battalion. As a member of the Prisons service he distinguished himself by becoming the second person to reach the highest rank in the Department of Prisons. He was the only member to attend a course for “Senior Prison Officers” in England in 1955. Members of the department and I will remember Gen. Nel as a man who always put the interests of the department, and those of the prisoners and members in particular, first, and as a person with a human approach. He made exceptional and valued sacrifices, which we shall always remember, for the sake of the department and for the sake of the community of the Republic. By virtue of the post occupied by the General, exacting demands were made of his spouse, Mrs. Joan Nel. She will be remembered as a beloved and humane person who gave her spouse the necessary support throughout. On behalf of the Government and myself, a personal word of thanks for the sacrifices and the positive contribution made to our society by Gen. Nel.

As I have already announced, Gen. Nel is being succeeded by Lt.-Gen. W. M. du Preez who will be promoted to the rank of General on 1 July 1976.

Then, too, I want to make an announcement in connection with a Justice matter. It concerns the establishment of a Justice college. The shortage of legally qualified staff in the Department of Justice has become more acute over the years. On the other hand, the activities of the department and the necessity for improved service have increased steadily. I am not going to quote the figures because this has already been done. However, it is an open question whether we always realize the areas in which staff crisis in the Department of Justice can make themselves felt. For example, such a staff crisis could raise the question whether there will be sufficient Government law advisers in the foreseeable future to deal with parliamentary legislation, whether there will be sufficient Government Attorneys to handle important contracts, terms and conditions and lawsuits for the State, or whether the Registrar’s division will be able to handle the administration of the Supreme Court, whether administration of estates will be delayed for long periods in Masters’ Offices, whether a backlog of deeds of transfer to be registered will build up in Deeds Offices, and last, but perhaps most important—whether our magistrates courts, in which 90% of the criminal and civil hearings take place, will continue to be capable of handling the hearing of those cases, because if they are unable to do so, it will simply be impossible to prosecute offenders or enforce civil rights.

As mentioned in the annual report of the Department of Justice, it is due primarily to the loyalty and sense of calling of a core of officials that the department has still been able to maintain a reasonable standard in the services for which it is responsible. In the second place, the report indicates how it has been possible to succeed in dealing with a steadily increasing work load with relatively fewer people as a result of a steady increase in productivity. As is also clear from the report, one of the divisions which has made an exceptional contribution to this achievement is the training division. In future this division will have to make a still greater contribution, but there are factors which restrict it from doing so. The training division was born of necessity in 1955 after the pass rate among the department’s candidates in the Public Service law examination had been lower than ever before. Initially, courses were offered sporadically, but as early as January 1955, three full-time lecturers were appointed. The division grew in size until today it comprises a lecturing staff of 16. Among them are lawyers who have already made their mark in the legal world and whose work is accepted as authoritative. About 600 serving officials from throughout the country are brought to Pretoria annually to attend practical and academic courses there for shorter or longer periods. On the practical side there are courses in modem managerial techniques and communication, mechanization and supervision. There are also practical courses for prosecutors, presiding officers, interpreters, relieving officers and examiners in the Master’s and Deeds divisions. Officers studying part-time for the diploma in deeds registration, the B.Juris degree, the Public Service examination in law and other equivalent qualifications are assisted by way of academic courses. In this way officers are helped to acquire the minimum legal qualifications and are sooner to occupy supervisory and managerial posts and do court work, particularly prosecuting. Other State bodies, too, benefit by this in that they send their officers to these courses and in that special courses for such officers are offered in some cases. Apparently no other body is in a position to combine practical and academic legal training so neatly. The fact that many aspirant advocates and attorneys make no secret of the fact that they join the Department of Justice with the exclusive aim of undergoing this training as a preparation for a career as private legal practitioners, also attests to this. The Justice training division is, however, hampered in its task because it lacks suitable accommodation. The division is accommodated in an office building in the Pretoria’s city centre, and it is simply impossible to provide suitable lecture halls and other facilities for large groups of students in a building of this kind. Furthermore there is no official accommodation for those attending courses and as a result they have to be accommodated in hotels and boarding houses in the city centre. Conditions there are unfavourable for people who have to study late in the evenings. Nor are there any recreation facilities for those attending courses. To bridge these problems and enable the training division to make a yet greater contribution to the increase in productivity and the effective handling of the staff crisis it has now been decided in principle to build suitable accommodation for this division. This will amount to the provision of a Justice College with its own campus and hostels, comparable to the training institutions of other State bodies. Approval has already been granted for a start to be made with planning and in due course money will be voted, in the ordinary course, for the purchase of premises and the construction of the necessary buildings. I want to emphasize that what we have here is not a minor university. The emphasis will be on practical training and the furnishing of assistance with regard to part-time academic study, to officers who still need to be registered with, and write examinations set by, an institution such as the University of South Africa.

As far as recruiting is concerned, we feel that it would be entirely pointless to try to train people if one lacked sufficient officers to train. Apart from the other steps envisaged, the Department of Justice is also going to launch an intensive recruiting campaign this year. The other two departments that fall under me, Police and Prisons, do their own recruitment themselves, but up to now the Department of Justice has been included in the recruiting efforts of the Public Service Commission. This meant of course that the department could do little to recruit people for the Department of Justice as such. This is now going to be changed. The department will still be able to make its contribution, by way of its offices and staff distributed throughout the country, to the recruitment of the Public Service as a whole, as it has done in the past, but besides this it is going to make a special effort to publicize a legal career in the Department of Justice, beamed at young people who have to choose a line of work. I am convinced that there are many young people who are unaware of the advantages of such a career. They do not know about the pleasure in one’s work and the peace of mind entailed by a career in which one can steep oneself in the law or in legal administration without also being compelled to bear in mind at all times the commercial side of one’s professional practice. Nor are they really aware of the financial and other advantages of a legal career in the Public Service. Consequently the Department of Justice will in future try to ensure that prospective students will at least receive information about these things so that those among them whose aptitude and interest are orientated towards human relations and the law, are not deprived of the opportunity to follow such a career, and so that the State and the community, on the other hand, will not lose the benefit of their abilities by default.

Mr. Chairman, I ask for the privilege of the half-hour. I have listened with interest to what the hon. the Minister has said and should like, initially, to associate this side of the House with his remarks in regard to the retirement of Gen. Nel. It is quite clear to those who know him and who know of him, and also from what the hon. the Minister has said, that Gen. Nel has had a distinguished career in the Prisons service and that he had made a notable contribution to the development of that service over a very long period of time. We, too, would like to wish him a happy and lengthy retirement and associate ourselves generally with what the hon. the Minister has said.

The hon. the Minister touched on the question of the shortage of manpower in the department, and I would like to congratulate the Secretary for Justice on his report for the calendar year 1975. It is a report which is instructive, is intelligently put together and is extremely relevant at the present time. Recent events, more than anything else, have brought to us a realization of the importance of the three departments which the hon. the Minister handles, particularly Justice and Police, the departments with which we are concerned with at the present time. I propose to say something about the manpower shortage in that department, despite the statement of the hon. the Minister which he has just given us on the proposed establishment of a training college for the department. If one realizes the key spheres of State administration which are controlled by the Department of Justice, one realizes, and the fact is brought home to one, how vital it is to appreciate the shortage that presents itself in the department at the present time. We have to do with the registration of deeds, the registration of land for the country, with the division which controls the functioning of the Supreme Court, the magisterial division, which is the first tier in the administration of justice, the Master’s division, which controls deceased estates, orphans and matters of that kind, the attorneys-general division, which is in charge of the bringing of prosecutions in the Supreme Court, and the State law adviser’s division and the State Attorney’s division the functions of which are self-explanatory.

If one looks at this report, the very opening statement is alarming, and I am going to refer to it in some detail. The Secretary states that—

He then gives some figures which I find alarming. For example in March 1968 only 33% of the posts of legal assistant were suitably filled. There is a retrogressive progression from the position then to today. From 33% only being filled in 1968, 31% were filled in April 1969, 20% in September 1974, 17% in March 1975 while only 14% of the posts of legal assistant were suitably filled in December 1975. This is just one category of persons, legal assistants. How are we going to adequately deal with what comes out of current events—that is to say, the processing of offences, the proper prosecution in the courts and all the ramifications that go with that? How are we going to deal with it when at the present time 14% only of the posts of legal assistant are suitably filled? This is a most serious state of affairs, and whilst it is indeed interesting that a training college for the department is to be established, we have had a gradual decline ever since 1968, which is a period of eight years while it will still be years before the proposed college which the hon. the Minister has mentioned is established. If one looks at other aspects of this report, e.g. the report on the training division one sees—

Untrained prosecutors! Here is the first tier of administration of justice. Whilst the spotlight, naturally enough, is very often placed on the acquittal of an accused person in a magistrate’s court, it is if an offence in reality has been committed, equally important to the security of the State that there be a conviction and to obtain a conviction there must be a proper presentation of the evidence. That is done by the prosecutor. If he is untrained while the defendant is defended by a trained person, as is very often the case, there will be an imbalance in favour of acquittals where there ought not in a proper case to be acquittals, but convictions. That is important to the State and it is important to the community, because people who are offended by a robbery, or something of that kind, are entitled to know and have the feeling that if that man is brought to court, he will be convicted and properly punished. There is also the unfair burden on the magistracy in trying to try cases and bring in a proper verdict when the evidence that is placed before them, is improperly and inadequately done.

If one looks further at this report, one finds that this matter crops up again in the report on the staff division, where it states that because inadequate funds are available, the increases in the establishment could not be properly brought into being. One finds it again with regard to the question of the deeds registry. Here again the figures are most alarming. It states—

If one looks at the ranks from which those persons are normally drawn, one finds that only 42% of those posts are filled. What are we going to do? I do not believe that a training establishment of the kind that the hon. the Minister has mentioned, is in itself adequate. I do not believe that the people are there if one is going to draw only from the White group. I believe that the hon. the Minister must look and set his sights on the gradual slotting in to his department of people from different race groups. One knows for example that the Indian community have a particular aptitude as storemen. They have the type of approach that makes a good storeman, for example, the meticulous keeping of records and a good memory for the various types of stores. I believe that that sort of mind would fit very well into a deeds registry, where you need the same meticulous approach to a problem. Probably, if the Indian and Coloured community were looked to, the hon. the Minister could find suitable employment, for example in a registry of deeds, for people from these communities to make up for what is quite obviously a shortage.

I should now like to deal with another aspect of the report, an aspect which is particularly interesting and has a relevance at the present time, viz. the reference to the liquor divisions. I should like to deal with the question of the sale of liquor in the townships. It is known to all of us, from the reports on the recent riots, that one of the first objections of attention of the rioters have been the main beer halls. One knows of the pattern in most of the townships: A large, central no doubt very hygienic, but rather soulless, beer hall to cater for the needs of the drinking community. In this report there is a most valuable discussion on the question of shebeens. The discussion makes it clear how, prior to the introduction of the more liberal supply of liquor outlets to the Black and the Brown people in 1961, it was thought that the changes would do away with the shebeens. However, extracts from the survey conducted by the Human Sciences Research Council, as set out in the department’s report, indicate that far from the shebeens having been done away with as a result of the legislation of 1961, their activities have, in fact, expanded, but that those activities have also changed their character. From an establishment that sold all manner of concoctions and illegal brews it is now—although illegal in its operation—more in the nature of a club which sells legitimate liquor. I think, however, that we have a lot more to learn from the extract quoted from the report of the Human Sciences Research Council. I quote—

Perhaps we do not have that facility in men’s clubs in our society, but there may be something in it. I quote further—

I do not necessarily approve of that. I quote further—

Whilst one does not agree with all those activities taking place in the shebeens of today, their existence does pin-point, to my mind, the necessity for a complete change in approach to the provision of retail liquor outlets in townships. What I would like to see take place is the following, and when I say this, I realize that liquor is usually a matter for a private vote when it comes to proceedings in this House.

I would like to see a change from the soulless, centralized, large beer hall to what I might call the comer pub. I should like to see introduced in the townships more of the type of retail outlet one sees in Europe—in Great Britain and on the continent. Small local establishments run by Black private enterprise could develop individual characters of their own. Particular types of people would tend to frequent particular bars or cafes, whatever the type of establishment one may seek to introduce there. The intellectuals would go to one, the sportsmen to another and a certain type of tradesman to another. This sorts out the position of class and environment as far as those people are concerned. It will have the attributes of a club and will do away with these large, soulless institutions that we have at the present time. It would also introduce an element of private enterprise amongst the Black people as far as liquor outlets are concerned. By all means, if one wishes to retain the brewing of traditional liquors in the hands of the boards or municipalities, as at the present time, that could be done. However, I should like to see the retail outlets completely decentralized in the manner I have indicated. I should like to see them made one of the amenities at local community level and I should like to see those outlets run by private individuals from the community itself. I believe that we would then be doing something to alleviate the tensions we are encountering at the present time.

Business suspended at 12h45 and resumed at 14h15.

Afternoon Sitting

Mr. Chairman, before the adjournment I was dealing with the question of retail liquor outlets in the townships, particularly in the light of the recent disturbances which have taken place in many of the townships on the Witwatersrand. I should like to commend the hon. the Minister for immediately having announced his intention to appoint the Judge-President of the Transvaal as a one-man commission of inquiry into these disturbances. I must say, however, that when one considers, as I shall do in a moment, the likely terms of reference of such a commission, and the field of investigation which will have to be inquired into by a commission of this kind if it is to be a meaningful inquiry, one realizes that a very heavy burden indeed will be placed upon such a one-man commission of inquiry. I hope that adequate auxiliary assistance will be provided to him in the form of research teams, etc. If one bears in mind what was inquired into by the Theron Commission in respect of the Coloured people—and I do not propose to go into that other than to refer to it—and one realizes that that was done by a group of 18 people, one appreciates the burden on a one-man commission in a matter of this kind.

Mr. Chairman, what has to be inquired into? What are the matters which the hon. the Minister should consider when framing his terms of reference? It appears, from the information available so far, that the proximate cause of the disturbance is the question of medium of instruction in certain high schools on the Witwatersrand. [Interjections.] I say, Sir, that it appears prima facie that that was the proximate cause, and by that I mean the detonator which sparked off the whole explosion. I do not suggest for a moment that that is the only thing to be considered in this matter, but I do say that prima facie that appears to have been what sparked the thing off. Now, what other matters should be included in the terms of the reference? I believe that one must look as widely as possible at the whole situation of the industrialized urban Black man living in an urban environment in the White areas. That is what the focus must be on if this sort of inquiry is to bear fruit. I believe that one must start by looking at him in his home. One must look at the question of its ownership, whether it should be freehold ownership or leasehold ownership, or whether there should be some other type of tenure. One should also look at the services that are to be obtained in that home. When I say “services”, I mean streets, tarred or gravel, lighting, water and power. I believe we must look at the type of home in which he is required to live. One must see whether there is sufficient variety in that regard. I believe that we must also look at the cost to him of living in that home or, if a different view is taken, of acquiring it on long lease or of purchasing it. I believe that the commission of inquiry must look at the amenities in the townships as a whole.

I have already dealt with the retail supply of liquor. We must look to the schools, their adequacy, their type, their situation and their control. We should establish whether the control should be at national level or whether it should be controlled by the community concerned. And, Sir, control extends not only to the buildings but also to what is taught in those buildings. I believe we should look again at the amenities for sport, their situation and what is available. We should look, through this inquiry, at public services, i.e. post offices, banks, hospitals, clinics, the availability of telephones and the adequacy of elementary things like street lighting and water hydrants for the better control of fires and of riotous situations, possibly without recourse to fire-arms. I believe, Sir, that we should look, through this commission of inquiry, at technical training. We must look at its availability, not in the homelands—that is outside an inquiry of this kind—but in the urban environment itself. We must also look at the relationship of that technical training to the jobs that are available in that particular environment, in the town adjacent to the township which one is dealing with. I believe, Sir, that the inquiry should look at the whole field of the economic opportunities that are open to the Black people, particularly the young people coming on to the labour market in an environment of this kind. That would also mean, Sir, looking into the question of job reservation and other limitations of that order.

I believe, Sir, that the terms of reference should include the availability of …

Matches!

… shops, the question of whether there should be a limitation of the chain stores which provide the cheapest food at the present time, e.g. whether they should be free to open in the townships, either on their own or whether in conjunction with Bantu investment, whether there should be solely Bantu-owned shops, or whether the two can live together in the urban environment. Mr. Chairman, the cost of living is undoubtedly a factor. Cost of living means the availability of cheap food supplies and other cheap services which are often, in my experience, at the cheapest level via private enterprise with White financial backing.

There is also the question of transport. In my experience, Sir, a great deal of the householders who live in these areas, do not shop there, but engage public transport to go to the nearest town in order to buy at the cheapest place. One finds restrictions of this kind, that a charge is levied by the South African Railways on the Black commuter for the basket of groceries that he or she buys in the White areas to convey back to the Black area. The cost of transport, bus and rail, its adequacy, its convenience or inconvenience and the very vexed question of congestion on that transport should, I believe, also be inquired into. What goes with train travel particularly is the safety from thugs of law-abiding people who have to travel to and from their work in a congested train.

That brings us to the question of personal safety, of that element—it is a large element, I believe, Sir—who, had they the choice, would prefer to live a law-abiding life in the townships. Here is your greatest ally: the law-abiding Black man and woman in a decent job, running a decent home, with decently brought up children and with the money to ensure that that is the way their lives are led. But, Sir, in an environment of mob violence and mob hysteria and where there is no law-abiding element or a peace officer to ensure the safety of those people, they will be inclined, for their own safety, to go along with the mob because unless they do so, they are not in a position of safety.

That raises a question which I believe should also be within the terms of reference of this commission, namely the adequacy of police patrols in the townships, the street lighting of the townships …

This is the third time you are saying this.

I will say it four times, if it is necessary. The emphasis is not merely on the establishment of a large central police station, but also of foot patrols within their township itself.

That brings me to the next point; the whole position of the police in relation to an urban Bantu township. I believe that if we can reach the stage—and I want this to be included in the terms of reference—where the policeman is seen as the protector and the ally of the law-abiding urban Black man, we will have gone a long way towards the prevention of a repetition of recent riots. We must avoid the situation where it can be said that there is an adequate supply of police when it comes to a raid, but that there is an inadequate supply of policemen when it comes to foot patrols and the protection of the ordinary citizen. I am the first—that vote will come next—to praise the part the police have played over the last few days in an intensely difficult situation. I am looking at it from the position of the law-abiding Black man, because I regard him as one who is entitled to protection in the present situation.

I think it will be appreciated, from what I have said, that if we are to have a commission of inquiry whose terms of reference will be aimed at bringing out a superficial report on the proximate cause of those disturbances only, we are doing a grave disservice to this country. I believe that the recent disturbances have highlighted the fact that we must go into this in depth; it must be as wide ranging as possible and we must give to it the same expectation we gave to the Theron Commission of inquiry into the situation of the Coloured people. In other words, it must be authoritative at the highest level; it must be all-embracing, and it must be an inquiry in depth. South Africa cannot face this sort of situation recurring again. If it is the intention to prevent us from falling into this situation again, it must really be an inquiry of that kind.

There is one other factor which I have not yet touched on and which is the last point I shall make. That is the extent to which there are other factors, apart from those—what one might call orthodox—factors which I have enumerated, which led up to this event. One hears talk that there are agitators at work, that advantage has been taken of the situation by ne’er-do-wells, either at the level of the thug who was out to loot and to rob and to set alight, or at the level of the political agitator whose chief field of operation is where there is an underlying discontent which he can exploit to his own advantage. Both those categories should also be included in the terms of reference of the inquiry which the hon. the Minister has announced. However, I deliberately put those two last, because it is very easy in the life of today to highlight those two factors, particularly the political factor, and to allow it to blind the real underlying causes which are there. I would like to see the emphasis put on the other factors first, and for those factors that I have just mentioned, the agitator, of the one kind or the other, to come in at the end, because then, I believe, we shall have our priorities right.

If these things are done—and I believe they should be done from the greatest urgency and at the highest level—I believe, some good may come out of the evil which the country has experienced in the last three or four days.

Mr. Chairman, I am not going to react extensively now to the last part of the speech made by the hon. member who has just resumed his seat. I shall either give attention to it later during the debate or when the Police Vote is being discussed. I want to content myself by telling the hon. member that my observation of the consensus among the public at this stage—here in Cape Town, in Pretoria, among my colleagues here in Parliament and among the ordinary members of the public, that one comes across in the street—is the following: These disturbances and riots are now being held up as spontaneous outbursts as a result of a language grievance. The general opinion is that it was a calculated deed that had to coincide with the hon. the Prime Minister’s visit to Europe. [Interjections.] The purpose behind it was to damage the discussions with Mr. Kissinger. This is the general feeling among the public as to why the recent incidents occurred. [Interjections.] If hon. members wish, we can debate this now, but I shall prefer to do so at a later stage. However, this is not only the opinion of the Whites, but also of the Blacks.

You discussed the matter thoroughly in your caucus.

We can discuss this later and then I shall deal properly with that hon. young member who thinks he is an authority on every aspect of society in South Africa.

At this stage, however, I want to confine myself more specifically to aspects concerning the Departments of Justice and Prisons. In the first place, on behalf of all hon. members on this side of the House, I should like to wish Gen. Nel everything of the best for his period of retirement. I do not want to call it a period of rest, because I do not believe that a man who has reached a certain age, should simply sit back. Nevertheless, we wish him a pleasant and more tranquil period in his life. We should like to wish Gen. Du Preez, who succeeds him, strength for the great responsible task which now rests upon his shoulders. A relatively long period lies ahead of him in which he will be able to fulfil himself within the activities of the department and make his own mark upon the department. He can continue to build upon the very good work which his predecessors did.

I should like to congratulate the Secretary of Justice on his report. Other speakers on this side of the House will refer to various aspects of the report during the course of the debate. However, I want to congratulate him as such on the new form in which he presented his report to us by dividing it into specific chapters and then dealing with every subject fully in the specific chapter. The new form of presentation meant in particular that the report was a pleasure to read.

Personally I should like to refer to two matters which are mentioned in the report. In the introductory paragraph reference is made to the shortage of staff, but it is also mentioned that the department nevertheless maintained a reasonably high standard. This could only happen because there are men and women employed in the department who did their duty as they saw it and worked even harder and accepted more responsibilities, while many of their colleagues moved on to greener pastures. I want to emphasize this, because I think it is a good compliment which a Secretary of a department can pay to his officials.

In the chapter on productivity it is also mentioned that as a result of improved circumstances and the fact that people are working harder, fewer people are doing relatively more work than in the past. If this is the example which the officials of the Department of Justice set us, then it is a good one of which we may all take cognizance.

In this connection I want to refer in particular to the problem which existed a year ago in respect of the Deeds Office. It was an urgent problem which caused unhappiness amongst the professional people. But, merely as a result of the Deeds Office employees’ willingness to work overtime, the backlog was eliminated and at the moment deeds are being kept up to date. The Secretary is indeed correct when he says that deeds work to a certain extent reflects the economic activity in the country. A great deal of money is involved in the registration of deeds, and if it is not kept up to date, considerable financial damage can be caused to the people concerned in transfer deeds. Therefore I should like to thank the people who ensured that the backlog was eliminated.

I want to say a few words about the maltreatment of children. This is a matter which has already been discussed extensively this year under other Votes. A great deal of publicity is given to the maltreatment of children and there were discussions about certain penalties which were imposed. Magistrates were criticized for the penalties they imposed in certain cases. In my opinion, the maltreatment of children is one of the most abhorrent and serious crimes which can be committed, because the object of the maltreatment is usually a helpless child who is assaulted by the person to whom he should actually look up to for his protection and care. I cannot find words to express what I feel about the atrocities of the maltreatment of children. When we judge a magistrate on the basis of the sentence which he imposed in a case of child maltreatment we must bear in mind that he has heard the case from A to Z, that he has all the circumstances in front of him and that he knows how large the family is who have to be cared for and how the family is going to be affected by a heavy fine or imprisonment, etc. I personally believe that punishment as a deterrent in the case of the maltreatment of children cannot be sufficiently emphasized. Since this is the department under whose jurisdiction the courts fall, and since our Supreme Court is considered the guardian in chief of all minors, I want to ask whether it has not perhaps become necessary for the department to take the initiative in taking a new, close look at the whole aspect of the maltreatment of children with two objects in mind. In the first place, the treatment of those who maltreat children should be of a preventive nature. If it cannot be altogether preventive, it must at least be limiting. In this connection the question occurs to me whether the question of parenthood should not be finally terminated at a very much earlier stage where the tendency to maltreat children occurs among particular parents.

I should also like to return to the Department of Prisons. In the past year we have had particularly cordial co-operation from the office of the commissioner. Members of both sides of the House had the opportunity this year of visiting the Pollsmoor prison. We were particularly impressed by the picture presented to us by the warders—to call them that—of the daily task of a warder and the processes through which a prisoner goes in a prison. What impressed me personally is the new prison building which is being erected at Pollsmoor by the department itself with, inter alia, the prisoners as labourers. I am impressed by the fact that, while they are working, they are indeed receiving treatment in the sense that an attempt is being made to prepare them for a return to their normal civilian life. In this connection I should like to tell the officials of the Department of Prisons that they do not have an enviable task. The impression which they give to outsiders is that they are people who are put in charge of criminals and are criticized for assaults, deaths and escapes. However, very little is said about their rehabilitation task. It was particularly pleasant for me to be able to read in the Commissioner’s report about how rehabilitation work is being extended. I think that the officials of the Department of Prisons should see this as their chief task, i.e. the rehabilitation of people. South Africa cannot afford to give up one person to a prison. We wish them everything of the best in their rehabilitation work. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, it is a privilege which coincides with the situation in which I find myself that I do not have to reply to the hon. member who has just resumed his seat and that I will be pardoned for not doing so. It is a particular privilege for me to be able to appear in this House as member for the constituency of Windhoek. This constituency has been served with distinction for a long time by the leader of my party in South West Africa, Mr. A. H. du Plessis. The fact that he is not here today testifies to the selflessness with which he approaches the future of South West Africa, namely that he wants to devote his time and the remainder of his energies to the political development of South West Africa to the advantage of that section of our population.

It is often said that the level of civilization is judged as a result of the legal system which generally applies to a particular community. It requires that community to find a mouthpiece in some or other way and have an influence on the legislation of that particular community. I should like to confine myself to a few remarks in respect of that aspect of our activities in this House. During this session the pre-Union Statute Law Revision Bill also appeared before the House. On the surface, when one looked at that Bill, it appeared as if it was a long list of legislation, of cold names which meant nothing at first glance, but when one studied it, one agreed with what the hon. the Minister of Justice said on that occasion in this House, namely that when one went through the Acts, one was in reality taking a journey through the history of South Africa. The hon. member for Eshowe had the following to say during the same discussion—I quote from Hansard, 1976, column 3005—

these Acts. On the basis of the various provisions one can see what the dominant social and political factors were at the time.

The popular concept amongst the public in general is that laws are drawn up by the legal draftsmen and that the community—the public—has no say in and no influence on those Acts. It is my argument that the general public actually has a great influence on the form which Acts take and I think that hon. members congregate in this House and act as a mouthpiece in order to be able to formulate those wishes and feelings of the general public in the legislation.

I should like to refer briefly to certain aspects of this method of exerting an influence. In the first place, when one considers the customs which often gain acceptance in a community, one finds that as soon as those customs and habits crystallize in a fixed form, they are subsequently proclaimed in specific legislation. If one considers the Negotiable Instruments Act, which is to a large extent sophisticated legislation, one sees that the essence and particular characteristic which distinguishes those particular instruments from other agreements, is the fact that those instruments are freely negotiable. It achieved that characteristic, not through the legal draftsman who formulated it in his office, but it originated in the practices of the community more particularly, the practices of the trading community which requires a document like a cheque, a bill or a promissory note to be freely negotiable so that commerce can make use of it easily and rapidly and so that it will not be frozen under certain circumstances.

I should like to refer to two cases in South West Africa which, for the purposes of my argument, are interesting cases for indicating how the feeling of one part of a community, or a feeling which is prevalent at a certain time, influences particular legislation. In this way the Treaty of Versailles provided in 1920 that the indigenous native population of South Africa would not be provided with any intoxicating liquor. That provision flowed from the feelings of that time, namely that these “innocent children of nature” had to be protected against the influence of the Western civilization. This sentiment which emanated from Versailles, was complied with until very recently. Recently that legislation was amended so that those natives were also entitled to obtain alcohol. A measure which was therefore protective at one stage appeared to be discriminatory at a later stage, discriminatory as far as ideas of a certain section of the population were concerned, and irritating to another section of the population, so that with the passing of time public opinion made its influence felt and the legislation had to be changed.

Another interesting facet of the legislation of South West Africa is the question of the extension of credit. For the same reason, as a protective measure, the legislature provided that the natives of South West Africa had to be protected so that any White person who advanced money to a native, would not be able to compel this agreement in court. However, with the progress which the Black population made in the course of time, and due to the business skill which they developed and manifested in the course of time, it was found at the agricultural congresses and party congresses that the public, those people whom the hon. members in this House represent, were of the opinion that the discrimination, as far as the White moneylender was concerned, and with a view to unrestricted commercial transactions, had to be eliminated. As you know, Mr. Chairman, the petition was successful. However, this indicates once again that the public makes its influence felt as far as legislation in general is concerned.

Finally, I should like to mention the influence which the general public has upon criminal law in general and specifically as far as the theory of retribution is concerned. The public in general experiences a retributive feeling when it is discovered that there is an inadequate penal provision on the Statute Book for a particular offence or that the courts do not impose sufficient penalties for the specific offence. History has demonstrated that in a case like this, when the penalty provision is insufficient, the public takes the law into its own hands and may go so far as to mete out punishment itself. It is therefore the duty of hon. members, who are in close contact with the population, to see that the feeling of the public does crystallize in the Statute Book.

†Sir, I believe that we still find facets of this retributive theory, which I have just mentioned, in our criminal system and though it is an old theory, it has not been totally replaced by the aspects of prevention and correction. As late as 1961 Justice Schreiner, Judge of Appeal, remarked in a case—

*Therefore, Mr. Chairman, the restrained retributive urge of the public must also be considered and taken into consideration by this House. The community speaks through its hon. members in this House who in turn lay down the feelings and wishes of the community in the laws of our country. Our laws are therefore not simply cold definitions by the legal draftsmen; the life outside also lives in them.

Mr. Chairman, at the very outset I would like to say to the hon. member for Windhoek that we have listened very carefully to his speech and appreciated his well-prepared and interesting speech. I think it is a view which would be shared by all of us if I say that we have gained while the Other Place has lost through his advent here. We wish him well in his career in this House.

Mr. Chairman, I would also like to associate myself with the remarks made by the hon. member for Waterkloof and the hon. member for Umhlatuzana in thanking Gen. Nel for his services and in wishing him a very happy retirement and also in congratulating Gen. Du Preez on his new high appointment. I am sure that he will aquit himself very well of his task.

I shall deal a little later this afternoon, in another speech, with some of the matters that arise relating to the disturbances of last week in Soweto.

May I ask the hon. member a question?

No. In the few minutes I have now I should like to deal with several important issues, though of necessity in a very brief manner.

The very first issue that I would like to raise relates to the Liquor Act and to the application of the Liquor Act, particularly in so far as the announcements relating to international hotels are concerned. Firstly, the hotels announced are nearly all of high-star rating and thus the most expensive hotels in the country. No attention seems to have been given to ordinary hotels, and thus all, except wealthy non-White citizens of South Africa, will largely be precluded from using these hotels. Secondly, while the coverage is countrywide, it is limited to the main business areas and to airports. Obviously, in granting the international status, due regard was paid to the necessity of venues for conferences and the like, but no attention at all has been given to the tourist needs of the non-White population of South Africa, who are in my view in as parlous a position as they ever have been. Thirdly, as for the motoring public of South Africa, the stop-over situation has not been relieved at all. Finally, the conditions which have been set relating to dancing, to swimming, to drinking and even as to the ratio of beds for Whites to non-Whites in hotels, are in my view still both insulting and small-minded and in no way remove the objections to petty apartheid. South African citizens of colour are still in an inferior position compared with foreign non-Whites visiting this country. Therefore my first appeal to this hon. Minister is to rethink his policy in relation to hotels and in honouring the covenant given to the world by the hon. the Prime Minister some while ago to devise reforms in this field which do not favour the foreigner, which will not give the Government the final say but which will allow free enterprise the final say to their clientele and, to use a current cricketing phrase, to ensure the normalization of usage of hotels and of hotel facilities.

The second and very brief point I would like to make is in connection with the use and the abuse of liquor. This family-disruptive evil is increasing dramatically. Let me just furnish a few statistics. In 1973, 14 488 cases of driving under the influence of alcohol were sent for trial. In 1974 the figure was 16 802, an increase of some 15%. In 1973 about 143 000 cases of straight drunkenness were sent for trial. In 1974 the figure was 181 000, an increase of some 26%. The annual report of the department—and I quote the relevant section—states:

It is my belief that this is a very naïve view, because the liquor trade operates for profit and obviously wishes to sell more liquor. Surely, as this problem grows into one of national proportions, with increasing heartbreak, it is time for the State to initiate an inquiry, and after that inquiry to initiate positive reforms and action.

There is a third matter I should like to raise, and this relates to the staff and training set-up of the department. The annual report reflects an alarming situation, as has already been mentioned. Legal practitioners, who carry out the law and on many occasions deal with the Government departments, will testify to the truthfulness of the department’s statement. I will not quote the statistics that have already been quoted, but I do want to quote an answer to a question I asked some while ago. Of 509 prosecutors in magistrates’ courts, only 76 are legally qualified. If a break-down in the broader administration is not to occur very soon, the hon. the Minister will have to implement some very rapid reforms, and one must take cognizance of the fact that the delays occasioned by the department—despite the very good service the department is providing where it can—are probably already costing the private sector millions of rands per year. The reforms I have mentioned must embrace salary and employment adjustments, conditions of employment and, as has been mentioned, the usage of all races in the provision of essential services. I do welcome the hon. the Minister’s announcement of the creation of a special justice college. I do think it will go a long way towards helping the situation. I also welcome his announcement of a recruitment drive, and I can only hope that that drive, coupled with a dynamic approach to the improvement of working conditions in the department, will assist in keeping the administration of justice on a sound footing.

The next matter, which I should like to deal with very quickly relates to litigation between private persons and the cost of such litigation. Civil justice or redress should not be available only to the rich. Legal aid, however, with its rigid means test, caters only for the very poor. With escalating legal costs, however, especially the exorbitant fees charged, for example, by counsel on many occasions—today they very often charge, for one Supreme Court trial, more than an ordinary man may earn in a year—the price of obtaining justice is beyond the pocket of the man in the street, Black or White. This is not a happy situation, and I believe it merits the hon. the Minister’s attention. None of us are opposed to the legal profession earning well, but I do feel that legal costs are being allowed to escalate unreasonably, and this is to the detriment of the man in the street.

I also note that the hon. the Minister has withdrawn from the Order Paper the Sunday observance legislation. There is one thought I should like to give the hon. the Minister to chew on during the recess, and that is that South Africa is a uniquely diverse community encompassing widely different faiths—Protestant and Catholic, Moslem, Hindu, Jewish and non-Jewish. Although our country is largely Christian in character, even Christians differ in their approach to religion. The bulk of English speakers—if I may speak on their behalf for a few moments—are by and large no less religious or God fearing, in my view, than any other group. We do honestly resent, however, being dictated to by a predominantly Calvinist Afrikaans Government when it comes to what we English speakers may or may not do on a Sunday. We resent this. This particular type of legislation is none of the Government’s business. It is a matter of ordinary private conscience. As long as we do not interfere with the free worship by other people, we do not expect this Government to interfere with us or our ways, and that includes what we do on Sundays. We say that forced Sunday observance is to us nothing more than Mother Grundyism and an unwarranted intrusion in the private lives of mainly English-speaking people. I believe that the hon. the Minister should consider this factor very carefully before he re-introduces the Bill next year.

Mr. Chairman, in respect of the last matter which the hon. member for Sandton raised, I should like to refer him to section 2 of the Constitution Act of the Republic of South Africa. If he bears that section in mind, he will not say the sort of things which he has just said in this House. The hon. member also spoke about the question of the accommodation of non-Whites in hotels, and everything associated with that. I want to remind the hon. member that one of the members of his party served on the Select Committee which went into this question of hotels. That hon. member who served on the Select Committee, had ample opportunity to raise these matters there and during the debate which followed it. However, no word was raised about it. As far as the hon. member’s concern about the abuse of alcohol is concerned, I want to say that we share his concern. We believe that it is an evil which must be combated. I do not believe there is anyone who is opposed to that.

Mr. Chairman, I want to return briefly to the speech made by the hon. member for Umhlatuzana. I am referring particularly to what he said with reference to the one-man commission of inquiry, viz. the Judge-President of the Transvaal, that is going to be appointed in connection with the riots which recently took place. It was very striking that the hon. member for Umhlatuzana mentioned everything which the hon. judge has to look into, except for the most important matter of all, and this is that an inquiry must be made into the agitators and subverters in the Republic of South Africa. I think that this is the essential term of reference which must be given to that hon. judge. The other matters actually had nothing to do with the riots which we experienced recently. If one looks at the aim and endeavours of agitators in this country, of the subverters and of the communistic strategy, one sees very clearly that their first object is to isolate South Africa from Black Africa, by means of terrorism. In addition they want to sabotage dialogue, for example with the OAU, and especially the dialogue which the hon. the Prime Minister is going to set in motion in Europe. This is one of the most important motives behind these riots.

The second aspect which one must look at in the case of this undermining, is that it is the strategy of the communists to isolate South Africa not only from Black Africa, but from the West as well. In this connection they make use of various methods. We think of the boycotts and we think of the discussion in the UN, to which the hon. the Prime Minister referred when he was in Germany. He pointed out that double standards are being applied, everything with only one purpose in view. In the third place—and this is the most important—it is the strategy of the subverters and communists to isolate the Government of South Africa in Pretoria from the people of South Africa. This is why they are trying to sow unrest, as we recently saw happening in Soweto. Furthermore, they use the communist Press here in South Africa to achieve those diabolic purposes. Allow me to say this to the hon. members: The riots which recently occurred, are largely due to the communist Press here in South Africa. A few weeks ago the following caption appeared, as large as life, in the Sunday Times, which is distributed in Soweto: “The Reds are not a danger; apartheid is the danger.” If this is not absolute blatant incitement of those people in Soweto and of the Black masses, I do not know what incitement is. It is due to that communist Press here in South Africa that we have the difficulties which we have today.

Now it is said that the language issue caused this trouble. If one wants to use one’s own common sense and be practical, one will see that the language issue had nothing to do with it. I shall mention five points to illustrate why I say that the language issue had little to do with it. In the first place, these riots were very well organized. This was very clear.

The hon. the Minister of Justice also explained the various marches from different directions the other day. It was very well organized. In the second place even a woman like Winnie Mandela said that education was not the cause of these riots. It may have been used as a pretext but it was not the cause of these riots. In the third place, it is very noticeable how soon the students of Wits University were on the scene with their absolutely abhorrent posters in order to encourage this riot. In the fourth place, one saw in the action of the Blacks, that Black power salute and everything which goes with it, that it had nothing to do with education or street lights which do not bum in Soweto. It goes very much deeper than these matters. In the fifth place there is the murder and robbery which accompanied these riots and the fact that 20 of those people were shot with a 0,22 rifle. This is a weapon which is not even possessed by the South African Police, much less used. Surely this shows that this matter goes much deeper. I should like to ask the hon. the Minister whether the time has not come for these newspapers in South Africa to be curbed and to ban the publication of reports about this type of disturbance and everything that goes with it. Since those riots began, they have been described as large as life in the newspapers.

Mr. Chairman, may I ask the hon. member a question?

Mr. Chairman, I do not have any more time. My time is very limited. One thinks of the fact that many of these photographs and many of the reports which were published, were nothing but fabricated reports and photographs and that they were a reflection of what really happened there. One is not in favour of Press censorship in South Africa, least of all those of us on this side of the House, but I think that occurrences of this nature should be stopped immediately and exposed.

Mr. Chairman, I see that my time has almost expired. I should just like to return for a few moments to the report of the Secretary of Justice because I think that not only is it one of the best reports, but also one of the neatest we have had in this House for many years. I should like to congratulate the Secretary of Justice on it most sincerely.

The hon. member for Umhlatuzana also expressed his concern about the staff position. I want to share that concern with him. He asks how this work is going to be done. I want to tell him that this work gets done. As chief speaker on the Opposition side he must not only congratulate the Secretary on the report, but he should congratulate the Secretary and the staff, the whole department, on the fact that this work is still being done. Now one asks oneself: How do they succeed in doing this work? I think that the essential thought underlying everything is the fact of an increased and improved production by the officials of the department. I want to congratulate them sincerely on it. Various steps were taken in order to achieve increased production. These have been set out in this report. I want to attribute it to their experience that the Department of Justice and its officials have been able to achieve this increased production in their departments. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, I want to congratulate the hon. member for Potgietersrus on the fact that he was able to summarize the causes of the recent riots so briefly and concisely. He was quite correct in what he said about them. To the hon. member for Sandton, who spoke about “forced Sunday observance”, I want to say that the steps which this side of the House propose in that respect, will eventually have results from which he will also benefit.

In the past, especially recently, it has often been asked whether the Sabbath laws of President Paul Kruger should not be reconsidered, and whether the time has not come for the laws to be completely repealed. With the recently proposed Bill which will ban the showing of films on Sundays and public holidays—this is a Bill which will not be proceeded with during this Session—the same question arose once again. Therefore I want to exchange a few thoughts on that matter today, particularly sport on Sundays, recreation on Sundays and the desecration of the Sabbath in general. As far as I am concerned, it all turns on the question of how we should consider the essence of Sunday; what we may and may not do upon a Sunday. It is definitely not a question which can simply be disposed of with a mere “yes” or “no”. Since South Africa is a Christian country, it is an essential requirement’ that we use the guiding principles as indicated in the greatest of all laws—the Ten Commandments—as basic points of departure in answering this question, and that we shall place the requirements which are laid down in the Bible for keeping the Sabbath day holy first in our attempts to answer this question.

I have often thought of how wonderful it would be if the Bible provided us with direct answers to questions of this nature. However, times change, as the Bible also shows us, especially if we look at the New Testament. Here, Christ himself said that the Sabbath is made for man and not man for the Sabbath. Also, by means of a comparison, He said that necessity may force somebody to accomplish certain tasks on the Sabbath. He even cured the sick on the Sabbath; not always people who were sick unto death. Since we cannot always obtain direct answers from the Bible to questions of this nature, we must bear in mind the fact that the life style of those who live according to God’s Word is not a fossilized life style. On the contrary, it is a life style which is always open and directed at the future; the future with new and unexpected, even unpredictable, situations. The future is the order of the day in the life of the believer. He is continually confronted with new situations and new circumstances.

It is then when the Christian must go about things searchingly and siftingly. It is then when he must seek God’s will for a guiding principle for the solution to these new circumstances with which he is being confronted. Then too he must recognize the challenges and ask in faith what the solution to his problems will be.

In our formulation, however, it is important to me that, in the language of the Ten Commandments, we should go to work in a searching manner. In the first place I want to emphasize that the Sabbath must be kept holy, that is to say, that the day has been set aside by the Lord. We may therefore not lose sight of this. This day has been set aside for our Creator. This is emphasized by the worship service which is associated with the Sabbath. If we have been rushing unceasingly throughout the week from duty to relaxation and entertainment, the Sabbath day is there for us to be free from that rush; free for the things which we could not do during the week; that is to say, peaceful, constructive and formative togetherness with our fellow-men and members of our family. Secondly, it is the day on which I have to rest and may not do any work. For the interpretation of this, it says in Isaiah 58: Do not do thy pleasure on my holy day; do not follow thine own ways; nor speak thine own words. On the contrary. Thou shalt delight in the Lord. It is striking that countries that have tried to institute a seven-day working week—a week without rest—could not succeed. They had to return to the old working week in order to give their working people a chance to rest. On the Sabbath one must get away from the labour which everyday duties imposes. On that day one must make oneself available to God the Father.

The question now arises whether through sport, recreation and amusement one may make oneself available to Him or whether this should fall under the expression “toil and moil”. According to sources which I consulted, I found that theologians differ considerably in this respect. The argument of most theologians is that Sunday is not necessarily a continuation of the Jewish Sabbath. On the contrary, it is maintained that Christ is the Sabbath of the believer. Strictly speaking, the expression Sabbath-breaking, however well intended, is not correct. For some of them—this is the argument—the issue is not the day, but Christ, the Redeemer himself. I do not want to become involved in this argument, because I do not consider myself qualified to participate in it. However, I want to point out, as I said in the beginning, that South Africa is a Christian country and, historically and constitutionally, it voluntarily set itself on the road of Christianity and definitely chose Christianity. According to this the State has a specific vocation in respect of celebrating Sunday. I therefore consider it the duty of the State, if it seems at all essential, to combat the forces of evil with Government authority and in this way to help the Church to continue to spread God’s Word without being hampered. This is a most important consideration to me and in this respect I see justification for legislation against certain actions upon a Sunday.

However, the Church must also take account of the fact that a state does not make a Christian nation, but that a Christian nation forms a Christian State. Legislation cannot put an end to the isolation of the Church. The Church has to do its duty here by unceasingly continuing its labour for souls, intensively preaching God’s word and continuing to discharge its duties. Since South Africa has changed over to a five-day working week, I can see no reason why Saturdays cannot be left for our organized amusement, sport and relaxation. The Sabbath must be used for the established government pattern which we maintain in South Africa, namely that we will rest on that day in order to accumulate strength once again and catch our breath for our activities and even for sport, amusement and relaxation which await us in the following week. If we do so, we will be able to say together with Paul of the Bible: “Therefore a Sabbath rest also remains for the people of God.”

Mr. Chairman, I shall refrain from any comment on what the hon. member who has just sat down had to say, because I think he is entitled to his viewpoints and beliefs in regard to his observance of the Sunday. I believe that other members who have different viewpoints, will probably wish to discuss it during some future occasion in this House. I should like to make one comment with regard to what the hon. member for Potgietersrus had to say. I think the hon. member is well aware that the hon. Minister intends appointing a judicial commission. The hon. member for Umhlatuzana has raised certain suggestions with regard to the terms of reference and I believe that it is as far as any member should go with the issue at this stage. There are very many other terms of reference which I hope will be dealt with in the course of other debates and which should be sufficiently comprehensive to enable a judicial commission of this nature even to take into account the attitude of the hon. the Minister of Bantu Administration and his Deputy who administer this vast department in South Africa, because the attitude of people in this matter is also something of very great importance indeed. I could, for instance, refer to many matters we discussed only recently. Pleas from this side of the House were turned aside with a polite response that the matter would receive attention. I do not think that that is sufficient from a responsible authority. I sincerely hope that the judicial commission will take note of this as well and that it may be part of their terms of reference in dealing with the cause of the unfortunate rioting and the terrible situation we had to face over the last week.

I should like to come back to another matter, which the hon. the Minister dealt with in reply to a question, i.e. the question of legal aid. I made a plea to the hon. the Minister that there should be some method, possibly the provision of additional staff from the department itself or from some other source, to enable people who are faced with criminal charges to receive the advantage of legal aid on a very much wider and broader scale than at the moment. I only had a chance to glance at the report for a brief moment, because it was not yet circulated although it has now been tabled. While there is an endeavour there to reply to this particular issue and while it is stated that it is available to all persons, irrespective of the form of legal aid they receive, it still remains a fact that in a recent survey—and I get this information from a very authoritative source, an editorial in De Rebus—it is stated that less than 9% of the work of the Legal Aid Board is for criminal cases. In the actual report which was tabled verification is given of that information. We find that criminal matters total some 919 as against 13 517 civil matters. The people affected in the non-White groups—the Blacks, Coloureds and Asiatics—are very small indeed. I raised this question very pertinently with the hon. the Minister, who said he found it most interesting and that he would look into it.

No less an authority that Mr. Justice Steyn of the Cape Supreme Court found reason, on 15 May 1976, to deal with this whole matter in a very interesting article in which he covered the entire subject of legal aid. If the hon. the Minister would read the article, he would see that Mr. Justice Steyn approached the matter from the point of view of legal aid being provided for people who are involved in criminal cases. He asks for an extension of the system. He says that the solution does not only lie in providing the funds. I am aware, as we all are—having looked at the budget figures—that this year we are providing almost R1¼ million as against R935 000 for last year and as against the original R207 000 some three years ago when this service started. I am not being critical of the efforts of the hon. the Minister to try to increase the funds year by year in accordance with what the Director of the Legal Aid Board feels would be the

Mr. Chairman, the hon. member for Jeppe raised the issue of legal aid and he will excuse me if I do not follow his line of thought on this subject since there are members on this side of the House who will discuss it. I am sure that the hon. the Minister will also furnish him with a reply in regard to this matter.

I should like to bring two matters to the kind attention of the hon. the Minister. The first concerns the issue of the meting out of punishment, specifically in the case of offences such as housebreaking with intent to commit a crime, and robbery, with aggravating circumstances in both cases. In both of these cases the court has a discretion to impose the death penalty. Not a day goes by in which we do not read in the newspapers about incidents in which people are injured or killed as a result of robbery, housebreaking or attempts to commit these crimes. As regards the imposing of the death penalty, I have before me the following statistics provided by the hon. the Minister in 1975 and 1976. In 1972 not one death sentence was imposed for any of these crimes as such, but only in cases where these crimes were accompanied by murder or rape. In 1973, one person was given the death sentence for housebreaking and rape, one for attempted murder and robbery with aggravating circumstances, one for housebreaking with intent to rape and rape with aggravating circumstances. In 1974, only two people were given the death sentence for robbery with aggravating circumstances and one for housebreaking with intent to commit robbery, robbery with aggravating circumstances and rape. In 1975, two people were sentenced to death for robbery, but in both cases the death penalty was set aside on appeal.

It is being said at the moment that the death penalty ought to be more strictly implemented in the case of these offences where aggravating circumstances are present. It is true, unfortunately, that discipline in the home, at school and the various branches of society is slackening. In towns and cities one often sees gangs loafing around, and these people attack on paydays and weekends in particular. When one talks to the Police one realizes that what appears in newspapers is only a small part of what is really going on in South Africa. One sometimes wonders whether these people only commit robbery for their own benefit or whether the proceeds are also used for other purposes. In my opinion the time has come for thieves and burglars to be more severely dealt with for the sake of the survival of our ordered community. In this connection I should like to associate myself with the most interesting maiden speech made by the hon. member for Windhoek when he asked that the aspect of retribution should play a greater role in crime.

The second issue I should like to bring to the hon. the Minister’s attention is the issue of the psychopath. Dr. Roux, who is attached to the Department of Prisons, recently wrote a very interesting book about the psychopath. In this book he quotes this striking excerpt from Gordon W. Alport, who has the following to say about the psychopath—

Owing to recommendations made by certain committees in the past, in particular the Commission of Inquiry into the Mental Disorders Act under the chairmanship of Mr. Justice Van Wyk, the new Mental Disorders Act of 1973 also defined a psychopathic disorder as a mental illness. Provision is also made in the legislation for the establishment of special hospital prisons for the detention and treatment of psychopathic offenders.

In terms of our criminal law there are three methods one can adopt when dealing with a proven psychopath. The first is that in terms of the provisions of the old 1916 Act which remained on the Statute Book, he can remain a State President’s patient for an unlimited period. I should like to recommend this method to the criminal courts because it seems that this could be the most acceptable solution. According to the authority I consulted, a psychopath’s chances of recovery are extremely meagre, and it is said that one can perhaps only make pleasanter psychopaths of them but at this stage of scientific progress they cannot be fully cured. Furthermore, it must always be borne in mind that they are the most dangerous and at the same time the loneliest of human beings.

In the second instance, one can act against the psychopath on the basis that he is not fully accountable for his actions; viz. that his accountability has decreased. In other words, where one would otherwise impose the death sentence, the offender is only sentenced to 15 years’ imprisonment. He costs the State thousands of rand and on discharge is perhaps an even greater source of danger.

The third method of acting against a psychopath is that where psychopathy is present, it may be regarded as a mitigating circumstance. The practical result of this is the same as that of reduced accountability. Legally, this alternative creates major problems. For example, in the case against Marlene Lehnberg which aroused so much public interest (S.A.L.R. 1975 (4), 553), the learned Chief Justice, Mr. Justice Rumpff, states the following—

The evidence relating to psychopathy and the fact that one comes across so many degrees of this condition makes cases of this nature extremely time-consuming and tedious, and in so many of these cases the desirable legal consequences cannot be achieved. I therefore want to recommend to the judges and the administration of justice the recommendation made by Brig. Roux in his book Die Psigopaat, viz. that the detention of the psychopath in a separate institution, and I quote—

To conclude, I just want to welcome the provisions of the Mental Disorders Act, 1973, which also defines psychopathy as a mental illness, but I feel that it would appear that sufficient use is not being made in the administration of justice of the machinery created by this Act read together with the 1916 Act. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, it is a great privilege for me to exchange a few ideas on the subject of legal aid, and therefore the hon. member for Brakpan must excuse me if I do not refer to his interesting speech. However I shall refer directly and indirectly to the speech by the hon. member for Jeppe. I shall indicate in the course of my speech why it is a great privilege for me. Right at the outset I want to state clearly that one cannot put in words the invaluable value and service rendered by the Department of Justice—or, more widely put, the State—by the provision of legal aid to those who are unable to afford legal representation. For example, can one imagine the confidence or gratitude of a person—male or female—who is in great trouble but who knows that everything legally possible is being done to further his or her case? Do we grasp the significance and value of legal aid in general in South Africa? Over the years our country, our State, has been besmirched and slandered because it is a so-called Police State in which the rights and freedom of individuals are curtailed, etc. I do not even want to repeat all these objections and false allegations. Now, however, this same State affords every needy inhabitant of South Africa the opportunity to obtain legal aid gratis from any attorney or advocate. In this connection I cannot omit to refer to a maiden speech made in this Parliament on 24 August 1966. The speaker said, inter alia (Hansard, Vol. 17, col. 1333)—

I think it must be a source of great satisfaction for that maiden speaker, who is now the hon. the Minister of Justice, to know that legal aid in South Africa has been placed on a sound foundation; furthermore, that the State is carrying out its share of the agreement. The authorities have created the channels. They provide the necessary funds. Now it depends entirely on the individual whether he uses them.

Reading through Hansard from 1969, when the Legal Aid Act was introduced, one sees that there is one point of criticism which has been raised consistently by the Opposition, viz. that funds were inadequate. Words like “meagre” and “merely a drop in the legal ocean” have been used. However, what is the true position? Sufficient funds have been made available every year. Consequently there is absolutely no blame to be laid on the implementation of legal aid or the amount at its disposal. The blame lies with those who do not want to make use of legal aid.

It is clear from the amounts paid out to legal practitioners during the various financial years that legal aid is progressing steadily. I now just want to state the position as regards legal aid in the Republic in round figures. In 1971-’72 the amount was R17 000; in 1972-—73 it was R151 000; in 1973-74, R327 000 and in 1974-75, R486 000. The percentage increase was 761% in 1972-73, 116% in 1973-74 and 49% in 1974-75. A total of 38 437 applications were handled. As far as the past year under review is concerned, a total of 14 489 applications were received. This represents an increase of about 37% in comparison with the previous year. Of the total of 14 489 applications received, 13 570 were for civil cases and only 919 for criminal cases.

It can rightly be asked why such a comparatively small number of applications are received in criminal cases. A possible reason for this is that when a person clashes with the law, he usually chooses to call in his own attorney, even though he can barely afford to do so. His own attorney may be well known to him. For example, he may have rendered outstanding service to that person or his family or friends on a previous occasion. Of course, the possibility is not excluded, either, that his family and friends could assist such a person financially to pay his legal costs and that it would therefore be unnecessary for him to apply for legal aid. As regards the suggestion by the hon. member for Jeppe concerning legal clinics, the question is, of course, whether people would make use of them. Whatever the reason may be, at such times people prefer to go to their own legal representatives. Whether one could call it a psychological complex I do not know. I am told that this also occurs in the case of White Government officials and police who clash with the law. They prefer to go to their own attorneys. And yet the legal aid officer, where possible, can give effect to the applicant’s choice of an attorney. What this amounts to in practice, is that the client has the first choice of attorney. The percentage of cases in which aid or advice has been granted in criminal cases in the past financial year is as follows: Whites 65%; Coloureds and Asians 74% and Bantu 100%. The figures speak for themselves.

A few days ago I paid a personal call on the local Cape Town branch office of the Legal Aid Board. I was impressed by the enthusiasm and goodwill of the legal aid officer. The lesser-privileged are rendered invaluable service.

The flexibility and sympathetic attitude of the legal aid scheme is apparent from the fact that the director can decide on the application of any person who does not qualify in terms of the means test but who, subjectively considered, is needy and, owing to exceptional circumstances, is entitled to sympathetic consideration. Furthermore, I just want to point out that the means test for the Legal Aid Board is higher than the minimum and secondary living wage requirement worked out by certain universities and bodies from time to time.

The question occurs to me whether the legal aid scheme could not be better and more widely advertised. I am aware that the Press has regularly been informed of the activities of the Legal Aid Board over the past five years and that in addition, broadcasts have been made over the radio, including Radio Bantu, and that details have been furnished to welfare organizations and civilian advice bureaux throughout the country. I am aware, too, that legal aid clinics at the various universities have been informed and that welfare workers on the Witwatersrand and in the Cape Peninsula have been addressed. State departments dealing with needy persons who may require legal aid, and various hospitals, have also been informed. In spite of this I sincerely believe that all these notifications must be repeated over and over again. I also believe that still further methods of publicizing this should be investigated and implemented. I therefore welcome the fact that the Legal Aid Board has obtained permission to put up notices about legal aid at every post office and at offices of the Department of Bantu Administration and Development.

I have no doubt whatsoever that the legal aid scheme is functioning effectively. According to the annual report of the Legal Aid Board a number of members of the Association of Law Societies attended a legal congress at Vancouver, Canada, and, among other things, acquired first-hand information about foreign legal aid schemes. Those people returned with the positive message that the local scheme compared well with the overseas schemes. There is no better testimonial than that.

It is gratifying to hear that legal practitioners have been invited through the Legal Aid Board to comment on problems which may be experienced in practice in regard to the operation of the legal aid scheme. No unfavourable comment has been received and problems pointed out have been eliminated.

It goes without saying that the Bar and the Law Society must be sincerely thanked for their fine co-operation and service in the interests of the community. Without their assistance and support, legal aid would be out of the question.

In conclusion I also want to convey my sincere thanks to the department and the Legal Aid Board for the fact that a branch office of the Legal Aid Board was opened in Bloemfontein on 2 January 1976. The legal aid officer is a qualified attorney who has practised for years. I trust that the Legal Aid Board will continue the sound legal tradition they have built up over a short period of time.

Mr. Chairman, I cannot agree more with what the hon. member for Bloemfontein East has said today in regard to legal aid and its success. I believe that the way in which it is being handled is a tribute to our system of justice in this country, although there are aspects which were dealt with by the hon. member for Jeppe, which we believe can receive further attention. I do not go as far as the hon. member for Bloemfontein East, to suggest that there should be some form of advertising of this service. I believe it should be known in the circles where the advice can be given, i.e. in welfare and other organizations.

I should like this afternoon to revert to another matter which was touched on by the hon. member for Umhlatuzana, namely the question of the deeds registries division of the Department of Justice. This department was transferred to the Department of Justice in 1970, after being under the control of the Department of Agricultural Credit and Land Tenure for a long time. The hon. member for Umhlatuzana raised the question of staff shortages. I want to say this afternoon that I do not think there is any matter that is more important in the administration of justice at the present moment than the necessity for the prompt registration of transfers of property and of bonds which are presented for formal registration. The transfer of land and the registration of bonds involve considerable amounts of money and delays can cause heavy financial loss to members of the public. Delays have a ripple effect on the cost of township development and on a host of other matters which eventually reach down to the person who wishes to buy a piece of ground on which to build his own home. A purchaser frequently finds himself in a position these days of having to pay interest on the guaranteed amount involved in the transaction to the person who is to grant the bond. For the same time and for the same period during any delay in registration of transfer he has to pay occupational interest to the seller of the property. He is, in other words, paying twice on the same investment as far as he is concerned.

As I say, the deeds registry was transferred to the Department of Justice in 1970, and in the years since then the work load has increased tremendously. There were fears, four or five years ago, that by now we would have reached an emergency situation. However, that has been avoided; that emergency situation has been avoided, and I should like to pay tribute to Mr. Murdoch, who assumed duty last year as the Chief Registrar of Deeds, and also to all those associated with him in his department for the staffing of the deeds registries throughout this country. I marvel, Sir, having regard to the difficulties, that they have been able, in the Cape and elsewhere, to see that the time between the lodgment of deeds for examination and the registration of deeds is being kept to an acceptable period of time. The warning signs are, however, at the moment still very bright as to what can happen and the dangers involved unless some matters receive attention in the future. The hon. member for Umhlatuzana has referred to staff shortages, and it is interesting to note from the report of the Secretary for Justice that the norm which is approved is that a junior deeds examiner in a deeds office is expected to examine 14 deeds per day. This brings his productivity over a year to 3 000 deeds. On this basis, and with the depleted staff in the deeds registries, a total of something like 114 076 deeds would have been disposed of by the examiners available on this basis of productivity. In fact, Sir, during the year 1975, 312 559 deeds were processed through the deeds registries. This means that 65% of the work load, the necessary productivity to handle the deeds, was covered by overtime or by staff which was temporarily seconded from other departments. This is, surely, reaching unmanageable proportions. Coming to the question of the cost involved and the cost to the individuals concerned when delays do occur—I have done a short exercise on the assumption that these 312 000 deeds each involve an average R10 000 each. It works out then that for each day of delay R1 million interest is being paid out unnecessarily from one person to another person, in respect of that number of transactions going through the deeds office. I do not have to say, Sir, that this is a waste and an inflationary procedure which should be avoided. The work load will increase; more townships are proclaimed. In 1972 there were 472 townships, in 1974 the figure was 538, and I think the figure is still growing at the present time. There are larger and smaller townships. Regarding the individual housing position, the Department of Community Development accepted in a survey in 1970 that between the year 1970 and the year 2000 there would have to be built in the Republic a number of houses or residential units equal to those which were built from the time of Van Riebeeck up until 1970. Obviously all these are not going to involve individual transfers, but with the policy of the Government—I hope a policy which will be developed—of increasing the home ownership aspects of housing, there will be a build-up of further transactions to go through the deeds office.

There is also the development of our Coloured people. More and more of them are buying their own homes. Still more are going to be able to afford their own homes in the future. That will mean more transfers and bonds will have to be processed through our deeds registry. Having indicated what I believe are the problems, I want to turn to what can be done. I see from the report that attempts are being made in the department to relieve examiners in so far as administration is concerned. However, I believe there are many aspects of deeds office procedure which could well be looked into. There is the question of relieving examiners from the time absorbing administrative checks that they have to do when deeds are presented to them. That includes checks on the payment of stamp duty, transfer duties and matters of that sort, as well as verifying the status and the contracting ability of parties in deeds office transactions, their capacity to participate in or to exercise the powers which they purport to have in the matter.

I believe that a great deal more responsibility can be transferred from the examining officers of the deeds office, to the practising conveyancer, in regard to the transactions which are going through the deeds office for registration. The hon. the Minister will be aware of the fact that, in sectional titles procedure which has been introduced under the Sectional Titles Act, there is a far greater responsibility on conveyancers. The responsibility has shifted from the Government examiner to the conveyancer handling the document, particularly in regard to many of the ancillary matters which are necessary in order to ensure the correctness of the transaction, although they do not in fact affect the registration of the transaction itself. I believe this can be investigated. What is applied now to sectional titles procedures could well be extended, to some extent at least, to the ordinary transfer and bond procedures.

I also believe there are avenues of employment, not only in the purely clerical and administrative departments, as was mentioned by the hon. member for Umhlatuzana, that could well be opened to Coloured and Indian persons. I believe there are numbers of them who will in time qualify and be able to deal with clerical and professional posts in the Department of Justice and in the Deeds Registry. I hope the hon. the Minister will give his attention to the possibility of this, in order to relieve the acute shortage of staff which will undoubtedly increase.

I know there is a close liaison between the Chief Registrar of Deeds and the Association of Law Societies. I know that they are presently investigating the introduction of the simplification of procedures, the elimination of unnecessary work and the enhancement of production norms. These are all important matters and I trust that they will continue to receive the attention they have been receiving. I hope to see improvements brought in which will ensure that the situation does not deteriorate from the acceptable position in which it is at the present time.

Finally, there was an inquiry in connection with the Deeds Registry. I think it was attached to the Eastern Cape. Can the hon. the Minister report how far that inquiry has progressed? [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, the hon. member for Green Point gave positive content to his speech. I have no fault to find with his line of thought, so he will forgive me for not reacting any further to his speech.

I want to revert to the speech made by the hon. member for Umhlatuzana. The hon. member argued that if the hon. the Minister were to take the step of appointing a commission of inquiry into the riots of last week, such a commission would be given certain terms of reference. I want to associate myself with that by also mentioning a few terms of reference which may be relevant to an inquiry of this type.

To begin with I should like to say that in the Free State we decided a few years ago to make South Sotho a compulsory school subject at junior school level. All White teachers and pupils who were brought into this, immediately proceeded to contributing their share towards this language training. They realized the value of communication and of better relationships. The hon. member for Bryanston who acted here as though the PRP was the only party in the country and the one having a monopoly of all solutions, must please listen to me now. In the Free State we have compulsory education in a Bantu language.

Here is the hon. member for Bryanston. You mean someone else.

Sandton

That is just as bad. The first term of reference of this commission will be to determine to what extent the rights and basic liberties of the other inhabitants of Soweto were infringed. The time has come for the NP—who has been coming forward with a positive, constructive development of the socio-economic circumstances of the Bantu in recent years—to come forward and speak up in this House when those liberties which it helped create, are being impaired. After all, it is clear—the hon. member for Umhlatuzana also confirmed this—that a feature of these riots was that the largest part of the people there did not participate in the riots. There is evidence of their having hastened to the rescue of other people and there is also evidence of certain people having fled from the rioters. This was a disgraceful and abominable infringement of the basic civil liberties of the other inhabitants of Soweto. The time has arrived for the UNO to take cognizance of the fact that out of a total of 1 million people, only a very small percentage could be pressurized into participating in the riots.

The first term of reference which I want to recommend to the hon. the Minister, is, therefore, that an inquiry be instituted into the manner of infringement of the civil liberties which every man has, viz. the protection of his life and his property, freedom of movement and freedom of speech, etc. The second term of reference I want to recommend to the hon. the Minister, is that it be determined to what extent the authorities—here I include in particular the Johannesburg City Council and the Government—had created vital facilities and living conditions for the Blacks of Soweto at an immense cost, facilities which were horribly abused. It is therefore essential for us to determine to what extent the authorities including the municipality of Johannesburg, have been prevented from bringing proper services and privileges to the many thousands of Bantu who would have wanted to enjoy them. The Bantu Administration Boards have taken over the work from the municipality of Johannesburg and consequently they are extensions of the municipality. So it is in fact only one authority which is responsible at this stage for services, investment, infrastructure, etc. In the second place we should also see to what extent these authorities have been hindered by means of subversive propaganda, in their attempts to provide proper services to the Blacks of Soweto. A further term of reference which I should like to see included in the terms of reference of that commission, is to determine to what extent the steps taken by the Government to establish educational facilities for the future, have been prejudiced and to what extent the children of Soweto have been prejudiced as far as their future is concerned by the destruction of educational facilities.

I should like to know what the extent of this is, if we express it in terms of money or opportunities. I should also like to see the commission determining to what extent urban violent terrorism was employed and if it was in fact employed, to what extent it involved foreign influences. I should like to see to what extent the commission recommends the affording of enhanced protection to our Black and White policemen and to what extent enhanced protection may be afforded to those civil bodies who want to bring about improved security for their own people. I should like to see the commission determining what role petrol played in this instance. I want to equate this to the making available of arms. We must take cognizance of the modem technique of the manufacture of the petrol bomb, which apparently played a major role here. Technical knowledge is a prerequisite for the application thereof. I should like to see to what extent the commission recommends that control be exercised over petrol for these purposes. In conclusion I should like to see that we are informed of the techniques employed by the apparent leaders’ groups who were there to get these people on the march.

Now I should like to divorce the matter entirely from the occurrences in Soweto and put it to hon. members that people throughout the world are becoming aware of the possibilities of urban terrorism. From numerous articles on the subject it is evident that groups of leaders from cells can disperse themselves in a crowd of people and be extremely effective in inciting people by means of slogans and threats so as to make them believe that they are being wronged and harmed, whilst giving the impression that the authorities are responsible for this.

In conclusion I should like to ask whether our legislation which has to serve as a deterrent for the revolutionary technique, is adequate. In 1962 we had the sabotage legislation. It was necessary at that time to define this crime. In 1967 we had to take a closer look at terrorism and define it. Since that time numerous countries all over the world have improved their legislation in respect of revolutionary techniques. Yes, even countries such as Yugoslavia and Italy, a country which may be taken over by a communist government, have laws in terms of which anybody who hides his face during a demonstration, may be sentenced to 3 years’ imprisonment. We shall have to consider enacting new legislation for combating the modem techniques of the urban terrorist.

I should like to return to the first point which I made and emphasize that here in the first instance, we have to do something in respect of the civil liberties of the vast majority of Soweto’s population. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, it is unnecessary for me to react to the speech of the hon. member for Bloemfontein West, with which I agree wholeheartedly. However, this afternoon I should like to make a request to the hon. the Minister to consider making more employment opportunities available to other races in magistrates’ courts, and, where practicable, to establish magistrates’ courts in non-White areas and create positions there to be filled by non-White persons so that non-Whites may carry out the administration of justice for their own people, or, as an alternative, that non-White divisions may be established in certain magistrates’ courts in the larger centres. In the same breath I should like to make an appeal to non-White students to become better qualified academically in law and choose the department as a profession.

I believe that this request may serve three purposes. In the first place it will afford relief as regards the acute manpower shortage in the department. We have already heard that no less than 86% of all posts of prosecutor are not filled by properly qualified people. Secondly it will enable us to keep pace with the vast increase in the number of criminal and civil cases proportionate with the enormous population growth in South Africa. In addition, there is an increase in the wealth of non-legal work and administrative duties, in the nature of things, have to be done and performed by the magistrates’ court. In the third place I believe that it could provide a further instance of meaningful implementation to the policy of multinational development by means of which additional facilities and opportunities may be created as a further subdivision of the process of orderly constitutional, administrative and executive progress and development.

I should like to base this request on three arguments and for this purpose I should like to address myself chiefly to the Coloureds, although my arguments will also be applicable mutatis mutandis to Indians and Blacks in South Africa. In the first place, I believe that over the past two years in particular, there has been a marked increase in the interest shown by non-White students as regards qualifying academically in law.

Whereas over the past two or three years we have had at most three people per annum qualifying at the University of the Western Cape for the degree LL.B. and B.Proc., we now find that in respect of these two courses, the number of registered students this year is very nearly the same as that for the final year. To be specific, there are five for the degree of LL.B. and two for the degree B.Proc. However, we nevertheless find a marked change when it comes to the final year—the third year—in B.A. (Law), B.Com. (Law) and B.Proc. In the three-year course this year there are no fewer than 18. This is the largest number there has ever been in the three-year course. This year there are 43 students in the second year of this particular course of study. This year, no fewer than 90 students are enrolled for the first year of the course of study. This is half as much again as in the previous year. It does not include people studying law as an auxiliary subject.

However, if one analyses the number of students of all races enrolled at the University of South Africa in all legal courses—that is, B.A. (Law), B.Com. (Law), B.Proc., B.Juris, and LL.B., including the Public Service legal examinations—one finds that this year no fewer than 1 050 non-White students are enrolled. There are 95 Coloureds, 657 Bantu, 293 Asians and five Chinese. What is most illuminating in this regard is that 180 of these students are enrolled for the Public Service legal examination.

Whereas our crop of academically qualified people has been small in the past, and whereas in the past we found that the majority of them turned to the private sector, nevertheless a few of them moved in the direction of pure law, to such an extent that we find today that there are 32 practising Coloured lawyers and 40 practising Black lawyers. Of the latter, 27 are in the homelands and 13 outside the homelands. We also find that since 1 July 1975, eight Coloured lawyers and three Black lawyers have been admitted. At present there are also 19 Coloured articled clerks training to be attorneys. In other words, a change has occurred here, resulting in greater interest in law on the part of Coloured students.

We are moving very rapidly in the direction of increasing Coloured dwelling complexes with tens of thousands and even hundreds of thousands of inhabitants. We find that the principle has already been accepted that local authorities must be established for these larger complexes. In the Western Cape region—that is to say, not in the whole of the Cape, but just in the Western Cape division of the office of the regional director of the Post Office—there are no fewer than 35 post offices today manned exclusively by non-Whites from postmen to postmaster—people who are loyal and do their work most efficiently. One also finds that on 30 June 1975 there were no fewer than 51 police stations manned exclusively by non-Whites; 42 manned by Bantu; eight by Coloureds and one by Indians. These are not small police stations, and one can take Bishop Lavis as an example. The police station there serves no fewer than 101 000 people and the station has a staff of 61 members, including members of both the uniform division and the criminal investigation division. The policemen there are all Coloureds, from the rank of constable to the captain. There is not a single White person at this station. In this way I am trying to prove my standpoint that it may perhaps be justified to use the opportunity of creating a magistrates’ court as well in order to serve this area. The same applies to the larger complexes. In the third place, one finds that more than 80% of all the accused are of course non-Whites because 80% or more of our population consist of non-White persons. If one were to make projections of the demand for a magistrate’s court in the rapidly growing Coloured complexes where between 80 000 and 100 000 or more people are living, one will find that Bishop Lavis in the Cape and Gelvandale in Port Elizabeth as well as Atlantis and Mitchells Plain will also need facilities like this when these areas are developed further. If one can establish a magistrate’s court in these areas, one will find that it will be possible to have all the ranks from magistrate to prosecutor. One will have to begin with a minimum of five magistrates and a minimum of four prosecutors, excluding the other staff. The effect of the establishment of magistrates’ courts for the purposes of the non-Whites will not only mean a greater encouragement for students to qualify in law, but will also mean greater and more opportunities for development. Obviously one cannot ask for a step like this if suitable people are not available. The department has struggled a great deal in the past to obtain candidates with the necessary legal qualifications. This is why we do not have a single Coloured nor Indian magistrate, while there are only one Coloured and two Indian prosecutors. Therefore it is important that students should concentrate specifically on legal qualifications in the academic sphere and that they should turn to the department for employment opportunities. I want to put it very clearly that I am not asking for a separate legal system, but a single legal system with joint participation in the administration of justice for the various population groups, judicial administration to be applied separately by each population group where practicable and appropriate, with opportunities for advancement for everyone within his own group. In this way one will not encroach at all upon the essential principle, namely that legal rules must afford equal treatment to all people regardless of colour, race or creed.

Mr. Chairman, it is inevitable that although a number of issues have been raised and placed before the hon. the Minister …

Mr. Chairman, may I ask the hon. member a question?

I cannot answer a question as I only have 10 minutes at my disposal. It is inevitable that the main issue which is going to come before us during this debate will be the tragic events that have taken place in South Africa during the last few days. The hon. the Minister in his reply during the snap debate last week, announced that he was going to appoint a one-man judicial commission. This we welcome. Reference has already been made to this by the leading speaker for the official Opposition, the hon. member for Umhlatuzana, when he made some suggestions in regard to the terms of reference for a commission of this kind. Two, if not three, members on the other side added their comments to this. In the first instance the hon. member for Potgietersrus suggested that there was no need for the extension of the terms of reference, because it was quite clear how these disturbances came about. They were the direct result of the work of agitators and a direct result of the communist Press in South Africa. Amongst others, the Sunday Times was mentioned. The hon. member for Bloemfontein West suggested that subversive propaganda was the cause and gave a long list of matters which might be looked at in the terms of reference.

Do you deny that?

If you will just allow me to finish my speech, I will tell you that I actually agree with the hon. member and, of course, this is going to have to be looked into. The other factor, the protection of all people in South Africa, whether they are Black or White, is absolutely essential. I agree with the hon. member that that should also be part of it. The main thrust of what I want to say is that one can only be appalled at the kind of response that has come from the other side of this House in response to the tragic events as they have taken place in the last few days. When one talks only in terms of agitators, of the Press and can blatantly say in this House, after the history of what has taken place only in this session, that the language issue was not a factor, one is totally blind to the facts and refuse almost by a deliberate act of will to accept the reality of what we are facing within South Africa. This is the first thing that I want to say to the hon. the Minister of Justice, namely that I am distressed beyond words to try to respond to the sort of attitude which we have had today from a few speakers and to say that I believe that we need not only the one-man commission, but another commission with wider terms of reference and that these two things should be on its agenda. The first item on that agenda should be an analysis, not merely of the language issue as it has taken place …

To investigate the PRP as well.

… but to investigate the wider issue, the warnings that have been sounded from this side of the House with monotonous regularity down the years—last year and this year again—warnings about the situation as it exists in urban townships.

And thereby aiding and abetting unrest.

Order! I cannot allow hon. members too wide a discussion.

Sir, naturally I accept your ruling. I am talking about the one-man commission which has been appointed by the hon. the Minister of Justice and, as other speakers have attempted to do, I am suggesting only two terms of reference. May I have your permission to continue? Firstly, I was saying that an analysis is necessary of the warnings which have been sounded, not only from this side of the House, but from many areas throughout South Africa, where again and again Black voices and White voices from various sources have been raised and have said that the townships in South Africa in our urban areas are seething with resentment and unrest and if anything should …

You said they must look to Angola for help.

No, not at all, Mr. Chairman. If anything should have the first attention of the hon. the Minister of Justice, of all portfolios, it is an analysis of these warnings. Test them out by all means, look at their motivation if you like, but it is terribly vital for South Africa that we do not lose this opportunity of learning, not only being able to say that certain people were agitating, that there were looters, that there were thefts, that there were murders … Of course that took place! one is desperately sorry that this was so. The simple thrust of the matter, however, is that this was triggered off by a group of people who were absolutely ready for it. I would hope that that would be the first area of analysis. When one looks at the various major debates which have taken place in this House, whether it be the no-confidence debate, the budget debate, the labour debate, the Bantu education debate—one could go on naming all the main debates in this year alone, in this session—one will find ominous warnings of what could take place unless there were urgent changes in South Africa. The second term of reference, I would suggest, is that they take a long look at the policy of this Government because here, I believe, lie the root causes of a great deal of the dreadful sense of oppression and frustration that exists in the minds and hearts of hundreds and thousands of people. I said it was not only this side of the House that issued these warnings. The Snyman Commission, for example, appointed by this Government, issued a very frightening warning indeed, but this was also shrugged away. It was stated, for example—

This is the kind of thing this commission ought to be looking at as a commission of justice. It should take portfolio after portfolio so that justice can be done and can be seen to be done in South Africa, because until we stop talking about agitators, the communist Press, activists and all the rest, and look beyond that …

And the hon. member for Pinelands.

Yes, one hears that ad nauseam. Go on and on and on. Mr. Chairman, I deeply resent that kind of remark, not only because it is a personal slight. I deeply abhor that kind of remark because it does not get to the heart of the matter which is that there are people in South Africa who believe that the policies of this Government give them no future and no opportunity. Because they believe that, they cannot restrain themselves. They become absolutely desperate.

He propagates it.

In terms of justice in South Africa and in our townships, we simply have to start asking the basic questions. We have to start looking at the causes, not just at one or two isolated instances. Of course I accept that the language issue was not the main cause. It was the trigger … [Interjections.] It was the trigger that released the collective suffering of thousands of people and let them run wild in the townships of South Africa. That is the kind of approach I believe this commission should take.

Which of you pulled that trigger?

Permit me one final quotation from the Snyman Commission report, a quotation which makes this abundantly clear. It is a warning that was issued earlier this year. I quote—

It is especially this kind of treatment and attitude which we have to come to terms with, and we have to do it urgently so that we do not sleep through yet another revolution but learn from these events so that peace and security, with justice, can be available to all in South Africa.

Order! I shall allow hon. members to discuss the terms of reference of the commission, but I cannot allow another discussion of the “Bantu Administration” Vote, which has already been discussed here. Therefore I want to ask hon. members to confine themselves strictly to aspects which may be referred to the commission without their attaching a wide, general discussion to the matter.

Mr. Chairman, I should like to respect your ruling. However, a great deal has been said about terms of reference to the commission which the hon. the Minister promised to appoint. I believe that you will readily concede that it is fair to reply to certain statements which were made, especially those made by the hon. member for Pinelands. It is the hon. members of the PRP and those of the UP on the other side who opposed two very important measures concerning internal security during this session this year. I am referring to the Bill regarding the appointment of the permanent commission on internal security and the security legislation of the hon. the Minister, which was dealt with later, and a portion of which had to be enforced in order to control the situation on the Rand. It is those hon. members who are now asking for a commission of inquiry to be appointed, and who want to lay down an immensely broad term of reference for this commission. Sir, you will allow me to say that one must reject with contempt the standpoint that a commission such as this has to inquire into the policy of the National Government. It is not the policy of the NP which must be examined; it is the misrepresentations of the policy of the NP which caused a breeding ground for riots such as these. I should like to address a word of edification to that hon. member personally. That hon. member was, after all, present at the birth of Black Power when he attended the University Christian Movement’s congresses here in South Africa. Sir, let us now accept that these riots which are under discussion now, do not simply concern the language question. The hon. member is correct: These things have been arranged to coincide with the independence of the Transkei. There was a fly in the ointment in this respect that the hon. the Prime Minister achieved too much success with his policy in Africa and elsewhere in the process which gave rise to the independence of the Transkei. These enemies of South Africa could not wait any longer to put a spoke in the wheels of these achievements. Therefore these things had to be done.

Let me just remind the hon. member: After all, he was present when it was arranged that the things which would give rise to circumstances like these had to be small things which could serve as a peg on which to hang these things. This was the approach of people like Herbert Marcuse, who predicted that these things should give rise to youth and student riots. The students were told: “Use hostel rules. Use meals. Use the rules of the registrar’s office. Use all sorts of small things such as these which can then serve as a peg on which to hang these things.” Sir, after all, the hon. member was present when these things were discussed. [Interjections.] Sir, let us be realistic today and say in all seriousness that we cannot afford to have things such as these in South Africa. I do not want it any more than that hon. member wants it. It is just as unpleasant for us on this side of the House to take action and destroy those things as it is for those hon. members. But then, Sir, in our action and statements we have to show immense self-control, knowing full well what the situation is. However, we also expect that when hon. members get up in this House and make use of the privilege of this House, they will not use that privilege in such a way that it will not serve as a peg for those people on which to hang certain things.

Sir, for a moment I want to return to a matter which has already been raised extensively, and which I believe is very important. I am referring to the staff position in our magistrates’ courts. It has been said that 90% of all criminal and civil legal judgments are passed in the magistrates’ courts. Reference has been made to the immense drop in the number of legally qualified staff. Of the 695 posts of legal assistants in the magisterial division only 33% were filled on 31 March 1968. In other words, there were only 229 people who were qualified to fill those posts. On 30 April 1969, 190 of the 605 posts were filled. On 30 December 1974 only 132 of the 646 posts were filled. On 31 March 1975 only 112 of the 647 posts were filled, and on 31 December 1975 only 93 of the 658 posts were filled. These are alarming figures, if we bear in mind that these people form the basis from which the legal administrators must be drawn in our magisterial division. Sir, we must be very honest about this. The hon. member for Umhlatuzana tried to tell the hon. the Minister what he must do in order to cope with this situation.

We are grateful for the hon. the Minister’s announcement about the Justice training college. We must be honest with one another. I personally believe that there is one very important reason for the shortage. If we look at the situation, we see that in 1975, 63 legal assistants and 32 magistrates resigned. From 1 January 1976 to 17 March 1976 16 legal assistants and nine magistrates resigned. I think that the time has come for us to realize that the large majority of these people in our magistrates’ courts and other divisions of the Department of Justice are professional people. These people must therefore be dealt with on a professional basis. We can no longer allow the judicial officials in the Department of Justice simply to be subject to the terms and conditions which have been stipulated for all divisions of the Public Service by the Public Service Commission. We shall have to elevate these people from that situation and remunerate them properly for the services they provide. It is a well-known fact that these people from the magistrates’ courts, magistrates and legal assistants, do not simply disappear into thin air. They normally join the private sector where they are offered improved benefits. I therefore want to ask that we pay attention to the fact that the salary structure of these people does not necessarily have to be in accordance with the provisions of the Public Service Commission.

Mr. Chairman, then I should also like to raise another matter, a matter which is very dear to us, i.e. that we will have to bear in mind that magistrates and legal assistants, in the rural areas in particular, will disappear if we continue as things are at the moment. This will result in the closing down of magistrates’ courts and the discontinuation of all the other activities which are carried out by magistrate’s court in the rural areas. We cannot afford this. We all know what an important position the magistrate fills today, especially in these present times,

I want to mention another matter which I believe will help keep more of these people in the profession and in the department. I am referring to the housing problem which our magistrates and legal assistants experience in the rural areas in particular. These people are subject to many transfers. It is nothing strange for a magistrate to be transferred 12 to 15 times during his lifetime on the bench. We all know what the position is today in respect of housing. It is not always easy to obtain the houses which are needed for our magistrates. And let us bear in mind that the magistrates in the rural areas still hold the position which a magistrate ought to hold in the community. A magistrate is expected to maintain the status which he has as magistrate. He cannot therefore simply move into any rented house. He must have proper accommodation. There are already schemes in departments such as Police, Prisons and Defence, rental schemes … [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, I want to return to the hon. member for Pinelands and say a few words with reference to what that hon. member said here this afternoon. I should like to object seriously to that hon. member quoting the report of the Snyman Commission so one-sidely. The hon. member singled out one or two paragraphs, but did so one-sidedly. Therefore the hon. member is not trying to give us the picture in its proper perspective as it has been sketched by the Snyman Commission.

Why does the hon. member not tell us what the Snyman Commission discovered in respect of the riots which were caused by the “pro-Frelimo rallies” which took place at Turfloop and in respect of the role which Saso and BPC played in that connection? After all, this was the essence of the whole story. The few things which he did mention, were indeed reported in the particular paragraphs of the Snyman Commission, but he will concede that some of these things were in fact exploited by Saso and its satellites and used to intimidate the Black students at Turfloop to action. After all, he knows that Saso and BPC—the Black People’s Convention—aim at bringing about polarization between Black and White in this country. He also knows that Saso—I do not think that he is ignorant of this—founded branches and organizations amongst Black school children in South Africa. While the hon. member spoke of agendas which had to be submitted to the commission, I thought that the hon. the Minister could very well cause an inquiry to be made into that aspect. It is important to see to which extent the organizations which were founded by Saso among school children, played a role in what happened at Soweto. In this way we might arrive at the truth. What happened at Turfloop? Does the hon. member not remember? Does he not have it in front of him in the report of the Snyman Commission? It is mentioned that, after the so-called victory of Samora Machel and his people in Mozambique, some of the placards which appeared on the campus that morning, were worded as follows: “Frelimo killed and won! S.A. Blacks?” What did this mean? What did it indicate?

It was aimed at Afrikaans! [Interjections.]

This is what they said: “Who next, if not Vorster?” [Interjections.] Apart from that placards were carried around which accused both me and the hon. member of being “White pigs”. This is the basis of the problem.

They will chop Dalling’s head off, too!

I believe that the time has come for us to initiate a thorough inquiry into these things in South Africa. My actual accusation against the hon. member for Pinelands is this: He speaks about the “collective suffering” of the Blacks in the urban areas in White South Africa. I want to warn the hon. member: He is playing with fire.

You are the ones who are playing with fire!

I also want to tell the hon. member for Umhlatuzana that it is a dangerous game to present a long list of things here which are apparently the cause of what happened. What do hon. members think they are doing? Are they not perhaps prescribing to the Blacks what grievances they ought in fact to have? [Interjections.] Instead of saying, “take a long look at the policy of the Government”, I want to tell those hon. members that the public of South Africa has reached a point where they should like to know what the role of the PRP in this country is. [Interjections.]

They are communists!

I also believe that the time has arrived for us …

Order! The hon. member for Moorreesburg must withdraw the word “communists”.

Mr. Chairman, I withdraw it.

The time has arrived for the policy of that party, its public actions, as well as its actions in Soweto, to be properly examined. Perhaps it will enable us to get hold of something about which we will be able to communicate with one another. It may also possibly lead to an agenda being drawn up which could be submitted to a judicial commission of inquiry. I object strongly to what the hon. member for Pinelands said here this afternoon.

To the hon. member for Sea Point, who is the leader of his party, I want to say that he and his party may just as well make a start—and each one of them can begin in their own constituencies—and propagate the policy of the PRP, this policy which they hold up in theory, in practice. The hon. member for Sea Point must begin at the Sea Point swimming pool. He must begin at the question of recreation facilities for all races in Sea Point. They must do it in Pinelands, in Rondebosch, in Parktown, in Sandton and wherever else. [Interjections.] However, what happened last year in Randburg? What happened after the by-election there? A great fuss was kicked up there! The PRP is not prepared to carry out in practice what they propagate in theory. Their policy is smashed to smithereens against the Sea Point swimming-bath every time.

Order! The hon. member must please confine the discussion to the Vote which is being dealt with here.

Mr. Chairman, half of my time has expired. I shall leave it at that for the moment. I also have something bothering me which I should like to raise with the hon. the Minister. We in South Africa form part of a very complex community, a community in which situations arise which make it more essential every day for the State to cause itself to be served by professionals, by trained people who can give guidance in spheres like law and legal advice and can indicate the direction in the middle of the complexity of the present community. Therefore I should like to say a word on this occasion this afternoon with reference to the position of the Attorneys-General, their staff, the Government’s Chief Law Adviser and his department. Two years ago I also discussed this subject. The hon. the Minister will remember that on that occasion I addressed a plea for the exchangeability of posts for seniority purposes and that promotion between these two sections should cease. I am pleased to be able to say this afternoon that this has indeed happened since then. It now seems that great problems are being experienced in respect of this department. If we consider the position of the law advisers of the Government, we find that there are a total of 37 posts, of which 24 are at head office, while 13 are at various provincial administrations and in South West Africa. Of these 37 posts six are vacant, of which four are in the head office and two elsewhere. Four of these vacant posts are being filled by temporary people under contract. Therefore, out of 37 posts there are 10 vacancies. This is approximately 29%, which is a very high percentage. The Secretary of the department also mentioned this in his report and points out that in the past Government law advisers were augmented by people from the Attorney-General’s department. However, it is being discovered that those people are not prepared to go over to the law advisers’ division. In his report the Secretary says that all those who were transferred in this connection over the past year, simply resigned. This presents a very sombre picture.

I do not have to inform hon. members what the position may be if this country is provided with incorrect or defective legal advice. I do not even think of the results of defective legal drafting. I think it is necessary for all the vacant posts at the Government Law Advisers’ division to be filled by advocates from the Attorney-General’s division or at least by people who have been practising law. I believe that one cannot be a proper law adviser if one has not seen the inside of a court. As a result of the particular nature of the work which law advisers do, I am convinced—and this has been my experience too—that one has to have been in a court oneself before one can do that work properly. What is the answer to this problem? In the past it was said that judges had to be appointed from the ranks of the law advisers. After a great deal of consideration of the matter, I do not believe that this is the solution, because it will demand an immense adaptation for a law adviser if he had to be appointed as a judge. That is not all. In this way another specialized law adviser is lost to the law advisers’ division. I should like us to consider whether we should compete with the profession outside—with the advocates in particular—and we should rather move away from the existing Public Service pattern and equate the salary of the chief law adviser with that of a judge-president. The salary of an Attorney-General should be the same as that of a judge. This ought to solve the problem. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, the hon. member for Koedoespoort, together with various other members on that side of the House, attacked the hon. member for Umhlatuzana for his suggestions of what terms of reference should apply to the commission of inquiry to be appointed by the hon. the Minister. The hon. member for Potgietersrus said quite unequivocally that as far as he was concerned, the reasons for the troubles we have had were communistic and that the agitation was brought about in an attempt to separate South Africa from the rest of Africa and from the West. I want to ask the hon. member two questions. The first one is: If he is correct, why do we need a commission of inquiry? I want to know from the hon. the Minister: Is this commission of inquiry to investigate the matter with preconceived ideas? We sincerely hope that it is not so, and I leave it to the justice and the fairness of the hon. the Minister to see that we will get terms of reference which will allow a full inquiry to take place. In this regard I am very pleased that we have the support of the hon. member for Pinelands for the recommendations which were made by the hon. member for Umhlatuzana. The other question which the hon. member for Potgietersrus has to answer is this: If he is correct, what were the security forces doing? If the statement made by that hon. member, that there were agitators at work is correct, then the State must have been aware of it. How could the State have allowed this to develop?

Order! The hon. member is anticipating the Police Vote in his discussion.

Mr. Chairman, I abide by your ruling. Yet the question remains and I believe it is part of what has to be answered by this commission of inquiry. If that hon. member is correct, that the Security Police were aware of the facts, then I believe the commission should investigate why action was not taken against the people concerned and why the situation was left to develop. What has to be looked at is: What exactly happened there? When one is operating in a potentially explosive situation, one should not let things develop. One should not let any excuse develop into what the hon. member for Umhlatuzana has called the detonator. This is what must be investigated. Why was the situation potentially explosive? In the editorial of Die Burger of Saturday there was reference to a lot of gunpowder which had been collected together. It then asked: Why was all the gunpowder there and who collected it? I do not believe that those are the questions that should be answered by the commission. The questions that have to be asked is why the gunpowder was allowed to collect. The answers to the questions put by the hon. member for Umhlatuzana will give us the answers to that question. I want to say to the hon. the Minister in all sincerity that I believe it is a tragedy that we allowed this situation to develop, where the gunpowder had collected, and all it needed was the detonator of some scholars—I do not accept that they were children—who protested against a language issue. I believe that that was the detonator which allowed all this gunpowder to explode and resulted in all the trouble.

I now want to put some positive suggestions to the hon. the Minister, suggestions which I believe he must consider. After the dust has settled, a number of people are going to be brought before the courts as a result of what happened last week. I want to ask the hon. the Minister in all fairness whether he will not consider in some way providing that part of the sentence of those persons who are found guilty in our courts of arson, looting, of incitement and of riotous behaviour, shall be that they go back into Soweto to clean up and attempt to rebuild what they have burnt down. I say this in all sincerity. I firmly believe that the hon. the Minister must find a way to let those people go to Soweto to work. Let them go there openly so that the people can see who the persons were who caused the trouble. I do not believe the trouble in Soweto was caused by White people or that it was caused by the Police authorities.

The hon. members for Durbanville, Schweizer-Reneke and Umhlatuzana all mentioned the staff position in the department of the hon. the Minister. What worries me particularly is the shortage we have of legally qualified people. The legally qualified staff on 30 November 1975 was 665. There were 665 vacant posts. When I look at the establishment in the estimates, I see that there are only 230 magistrates and 324 magistrates’ offices. There is not even one magistrate for each magisterial office at the moment. I assume the 230 are qualified persons. The others must be either unqualified or acting in the place of qualified magistrates. If we assume that there is one—but more often there are more than one—magistrate in each office, what exactly is the shortage? I wonder whether the hon. the Minister could tell us exactly what the shortage is of magistrates, prosecutors, legally qualified persons in each of the divisions, because I believe that this is a very serious situation which is developing. I see that there are only 666 legally trained professional officers. The report refers to a shortage of 665. Are we really 100% short? Have we really only got 50% of what we should have? Maybe it is even lower than that. I really do not know what the position is, but I hope the hon. the Minister will be able to give us the statistics. On page 17 of the report we read—

I accept this and I believe that those people who are there are doing a tremendous job of work to the best of their ability, and we in Parliament can thank them for what they have done. But why do we have this shortfall at the moment? I believe the administrative tasks, should be undertaken by unqualified persons to make it easier for the magistrates, i.e. persons without any legal qualifications, and I believe, as the hon. member for Umhlatuzana has said, that we must use more non-White people. I am also glad to have the support of the hon. member for Durbanville in this regard. I believe the speech of the hon. member for Durbanville was most responsible and deserves further attention from the hon. the Minister. The suggestion to give only part-time service in rural offices has evoked a protest of which the hon. the Minister is aware. I believe it is a logical and a responsible protest and that the Minister must not go any further with that. He must rather look to the staff position instead of trying to solve it by way of giving only part-time service.

The hon. member for Jeppe spoke about legal aid, and I believe that the busiest givers of legal aid in this country are the magistrates and the prosecutors. Many Blacks appear in court unrepresented, in criminal cases as well as in civil cases. They are often confused and unaware of the full implications of the administration of the law. They are entirely at the mercy of prosecutors and the magistrates, and when I say that I do not mean it in a bad or in a critical way. But the hon. the Minister will agree with me that they are entirely at their mercy. If you have inexperienced and unqualified persons holding down those posts, anything can happen. I do not have to tell the hon. the Minister how important it is that the people of this country, particularly the Black people, should have full confidence in the administration of justice and in the legal system of this country. It is for that reason that I view this shortcoming with the gravest concern, because I believe there is nothing that I have read in any report since I have been in Parliament which has occasioned me more disquiet than the fact that we do not have qualified people who are administering the law, particularly as far as the Black people are concerned. It is in cases where you have an illiterate Black person—because almost invariably it is a Black person who is illiterate—who does not really understand what is going on that the magistrate has an added burden, and so does the prosecutor. The prosecutor has a duty to seek a conviction. The magistrate has a duty to see that justice is done, and so to a certain extent has the prosecutor. But if these people are inexperienced or unqualified I wonder how often something goes wrong. I sincerely hope things have not gone wrong. The records do not show that there has been any serious trouble, because the number of review cases in which sentences are altered are minimal and the number of appeals are also minimal. [Time expired.]

Sir, the hon. member asked two questions. In the first place he wanted to know why a commission of inquiry is necessary when I believe that the riots were caused by agitators. However, the matter is as clear as a pike-staff. I am unable to say whether the Security Police know or do not know who was at the head of this agitation. However, one has to have proof and this commission has to be appointed to obtain the necessary proof, to get to the root of this evil and to ascertain who was at the head of the riots that took place there. This is one of the most essential instructions that can be given to the commission. I think all of us will be very surprised if one is really able to pin down and identify the people who are at the root of this evil. However, the necessary proof is lacking, and for this reason this commission is absolutely essential to ascertain the causes of this agitation. In the second place, the hon. member also asked me how it was possible for the Security Police to have waited for the incident to occur; did they not know when and how it was going to happen? He said they knew there was agitation in the country and that there would be riots, but they did not know when it was going to happen. This was really a very unnecessary question for the hon. member to have asked.

Sir, I should like to carry on with the speech I actually wanted to make a moment ago, and never had a chance to make. It concerns the productivity in the Department of Justice. Reference has already been made of the Deeds Office and what is being done there. In 1972, 248 579 deeds of transfer and mortgage bonds were registered in the Deeds Office and in 1974 this figure increased to 304 335. This is work which has to be done, because there is money at stake as has also been said by the hon. member for Green Point. This is work which has to be done and one asks oneself how the work is being done while the staff gets fewer and fewer. We read in the report of a junior examiner who, according to work standards, has to examine 14 deeds of transfer per day. However, if they dealt with 14 deeds of transfer per day they would never have finished the work, because they have to finish at least three or four times that amount of work. For that reason I want to take my hat off to the people in the Deeds Office who have to do this work.

In the same way one finds an overall staff shortage in head office and in the registrar’s division. The judges are really snowed under with work, and we learned from the Opposition at the beginning of the year that the Commission of Enquiry into Internal Security should be a judicial commission. We do not have the people to do that work. When one considers the magisterial division, there is a very interesting point I should like to deal with for a moment. In 1975 more than 1 611 000 criminal cases were heard, on which altogether 327 700 hours were spent. It is interesting that 0,82%—i.e. not even 1%—of those criminal cases were set aside by judges on revision. This goes to show the efficiency with which the trained people are fulfilling this task so that not even 1% of the number of cases has been set aside. One should also take into consideration the fact that they are constantly working under very high pressure. One finds the same staff shortage in the Master’s office where the officials also have to devise ways and means to render increased production. I recall that I visited the Master of the Supreme Court, Mr. Bouwer, last year. He asked me whether I could recall for how long I had to work after joining the Master’s division in 1948 before becoming an examiner. I told him I had to work for between eight and nine years before I could become an examiner. He told me that today these people are asked to act as examiners after only one year. This shows at what pace these people have to work to be able to produce that volume of work. In 1975, 27 111 deceased estates were dealt with, but in 1975 this number increased to 33 884. The volume of work increased likewise in the insolvency division as well as in the guardian division.

However, the most important aspect is that there had to be increased productivity in order to be able to perform this work with fewer staff. The Department of Justice saw to that. It devised various methods and in the first place I want to refer to something of which specific mention is made in the report, i.e. the volume of work and the standard of work which have been laid down. For every official in the department a norm has been laid down in respect of the amount of work he has to do. Inspections are constantly being carried out to see whether the work is done properly and whether the work is, in fact, done. These standards of work are laid down and determined scientifically.

In the second place I want to say that another method to bring about increased productivity is the training provided to these people. I am very grateful for the statement made by the hon. the Minister this afternoon that a Justice College is going to be established to train these officials. I think this is absolutely essential. In the past training was provided by means of practical experience over a number of years, but now the training can be completed within a year or two in that it is being provided to these people.

Another very interesting method to increase the production level, we find in the magisterial division where recording equipment is used today. A few years ago some of us paid a special visit to the magistrates’ courts in order to ascertain how this recording equipment operated which had been introduced only a short while ago. Since its introduction as much as 25% of the time has been saved by using recording equipment in the magistrates’ courts. This eliminates a great deal of labour, but what is more, it also eliminates unnecessary labour for attorneys, witnesses, and everyone who has to come to court to wait there. In the past the magistrates had to record all the evidence in long hand, and this was time-consuming. Today that time is being saved, resulting in an increase in production of up to 25%. I think this will be to the benefit of all of us.

I also went to the trouble to visit three magistrates’ courts to investigate the centralization of clerical work in the magistrates’ courts. This is where the various clerks are working in one general office and are doing the work there jointly, while helping one another. In the past the money for the various agencies was kept separately but today it is being handled, as the department calls it, by means of a pool system, in that all the money is handled jointly.

Another method through which productivity has been improved, is mechanization. I personally visited the Deeds office in Pretoria to ascertain how this mechanization worked and particularly the micro-film system which had been introduced there: I must say that an enormous amount of time is being saved there. Instead of having to walk through rows and rows of files to look for a deed of transfer, or for some document or other, it is now possible to trace the deed of transfer very quickly at the counter by means of these micro-films.

We can also pay tribute to the department for the mechanized bookkeeping procedures which have been introduced. If one considers the general improved achievements mentioned on page 31 of the report—it will take up too much time to quote a few of them—I really think that a major achievement has been scored in view of the high productivity the Department of Justice has rendered to the country and which is to the benefit not only of the officials of the department, but to all of us—also the general public.

Mr. Chairman, I should like to spend a few minutes discussing one or two matters which concern the population of the prisons. These are important matters and I too want to continue along the lines that the hon. member for Brakpan took when he spoke about psychopaths. When one looks at the population of the prisons at the moment, one finds that there are virtually two very large groups that are housed in the prisons. Firstly, the report shows that there are 87 persons with the death sentence hanging over their head. There are 1 398 people who have the indeterminate sentence. There are 1 872 people who are there for the prevention of crime; in other words, they are there serving periods from five to eight years. These figures give us a total of 3 357 persons who are going to be there for at least more than five years. The total prison population at the moment is almost one-third of a million. I think the figure is about 300 000. Fortunately a large number—in fact, almost half—are there for 24 hours only. They go to prison, serve a punishment period of 24 hours, and then they are out again. I suppose a great many of those are persons who are there for pass law offences.

Ninety-five thousand.

Thank you for the correction.

The other 3 357 people who are housed in prisons throughout the country today are, however, the ones we have to look at. It is quite clear that if people keep on going back to prison charged with serious crimes, they must be seriously affected mentally in some way or other. I think it is our duty to examine every single one of those persons to see which of them are psychopaths. That was the matter which was brought to the attention of the House by the hon. member for Brakpan. These psychopaths, of course, should be imprisoned firstly as a punishment for the crimes they have committed and for which they have been duly sentenced by the judges. Secondly, while they are there they have to be thoroughly examined to see whether or not they can undergo treatment. They will have to be given treatment, however, in an institution which is, at any rate in my opinion, apart from the prison. I have made one or two notes about this.

A psychopath may possibly be treated by psychiatrists in a mental hospital after being found guilty of a crime, and if his response to treatment is a major criterion of his release, his release will also depend on the prognosis by the doctors and psychologists who examine him. If such a person does not undergo the treatment, however, he may commit further crimes, especially such crimes as are associated with violent actions. If we are therefore going to depend upon the doctors who are going to treat these people in institutions outside the prisons, for example in mental hospitals, the sentence will depend on the doctor and not on the judge who has sentenced the person. It is therefore my opinion that these people, who are classified as psychopaths, cannot have a determinate sentence passed on them. Every sentence will virtually have to be an indeterminate sentence. The sentence imposed will depend, of course, on various factors. Much will depend firstly on the willingness of the offender to go to a mental institution. I do not know what powers the hon. the Minister has to send him to such an institution. He will have to be willing, of course, to undergo observation and treatment, and his response to the treatment will depend on the type of treatment he gets, on the ability of the psychiatrist and on the place where such treatment is given.

It stands to reason that there are so many variables in such a person’s treatment that one has to be very careful in determining how long he must be detained. How long is it going to take for a doctor to get a psychopath right? Is it possible for a doctor to get a psychopath right? These are difficulties which the Minister will have to face if these institutions are going to act not only as corrective institutions but also as places of rehabilitation.

The position will also arise where, if no definite sentence is imposed and the prisoner knows that his detention depends on his response to treatment, he may simulate improvement. How does he do that? When he goes into the institution, he simulates excessive aggressiveness. He becomes a person who is almost incontrollable, but he does so on purpose because he is then able to show later that he is responding to treatment. If he does that, his chances of getting out earlier are much brighter. He knows that if he shows himself to be an ordinary, quiet culprit and does not do anything, his chances of getting out early are very slim indeed.

There is another problem in this connection. If a man has been sentenced, say, to 15 years, and after four years of intensive treatment he is found to be normal once more, what will his position be as far as further detention in a prison is concerned? Is it the law now that when a person has been cured of his psychopathic disease, he must go back to prison and complete the term of imprisonment that has been imposed upon him? What good is that going to do this person who committed a crime while he was a psychopath? Will it do him any good if, having been cured of his psychopathic condition, he is returned to prison to undergo further detention? Will that make that man a better person? Will that encourage him to go out into the world and to take up his duties once more as a respectable and law-abiding citizen? These are very great problems indeed. I see, however, that the Minister has started to tackle these problems. I note with interest that he now has 20 psychologists, some of them full-time, who are willing to help with this rehabilitation. I do not want to dishearten the hon. the Minister or put a damper on his efforts, but if he wants to make a success of rehabilitation and if he wants to make a success of the curing of psychopaths while they are in prison hospitals, I want to tell him that as the position is at the moment, we do not have one-tenth of the psychiatrists that are needed to do the job. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, the hon. member for Rosettenville will pardon me if I do not respond to the specific points he raised. It was with gratitude that I took cognizance of the establishment of a Justice College. The training division of the department is of particular value to its officials, and has a very fine record. I am convinced that the establishment of a college such as this will lead to even further positive results.

Further to what was said by the hon. member for Bloemfontein West and various other hon. members this afternoon in regard to the possible terms of reference to the proposed commission of the hon. the Minister is going to appoint, I think it would be a good thing if South Africa could know what the role of the PRP and certain of our Press media in South Africa was in these unfortunate events which took place in Johannesburg. It is an irrefutable fact that when people—and this applies to every person—are told daily that they are being deprived of their rights, how few rights they still have left, how poor the Afrikaners—by implication, therefore, this Government—are treating them and how they are being discriminated against, they will begin to believe that this is true. If one believes that it is true, it is very easy to be incited to commit deeds of violence. Is it not a fact that the PRP and the Press supporting them have for many years been telling these things to the people in South Africa as well as of the poor treatment they receive from this Government? We hear it every day. We heard it again in this House this afternoon. I object most strongly to the remark made by the hon. member for Pinelands that we on this side of the House do not regret the unfortunate events in Soweto and elsewhere. Mr. Chairman, that is untrue. That is a disgrace, Sir. This Government is already helping the law-abiding Blacks in South Africa once again by introducing health and other services. Those hon. members are not doing anything, because all they do is talk and confuse the issue. Who benefits from these riots and violence? It is not the Whites in South Africa, and it is not the Blacks either. It merely promotes the cause of our enemies, i.e. the communists who thrive on riots and of this kind and on anarchy. Surely, we can ask that party whether it can understand why we accuse them of being lackeys of communism and why we tell them that they are travelling ambassadors of Moscow? Can they understand it now?

Mr. Chairman, on a point of order: Is the hon. member allowed to say that we are travelling ambassadors for Moscow?

Will the hon. member please repeat what he said?

Mr. Chairman, I said that in the light of what they do I pose the question whether they can understand why we accuse their party of being travelling ambassadors of Moscow.

Order! The hon. member must withdraw the reference to hon. members as “travelling ambassadors of Moscow”.

I withdraw it. Our enemies, the communists, benefit from this kind of behaviour we have had in South Africa through the years. The cause of communism in South Africa benefits from such behaviour on the part of the PRP.

Mr. Chairman, on a point of order: The hon. member continues in the vein in which he has started before. His allegations amount to a definite accusation that we are the friends of communism and I must take strong exception to this on behalf of my party.

Order! The hon. member for Verwoerdburg may proceed.

Mr. Chairman, I say they are playing with fire. The fire will destroy them and South Africa. I ask them in all earnestness to stop this sort of thing.

However, I want to say something about quite a different matter this afternoon. Because of a question put by the hon. member for Houghton in this House during April this year concerning murders taking place in prisons, I made certain inquiries with the Department of Prisons and obtained quite interesting information. I am merely raising this to put the whole matter in its true perspective. It seems that, during the years 1970 to 1975 the following number of prisoners were murdered in prisons: 1970, 27; 1971, 9; 1972, 8; 1973, 8; 1974, 14; 1975, 18. Expressed as a percentage of the average prison population in South Africa, it amounts to only 0,018%. Compared with the total number of murders in South Africa it is also exceptionally low. In the latter case it is only 0,034%. In the Brandvlei Prison the following number of prisoners were killed by fellow-prisoners during the said period: 1970, 3; 1971, 2; 1972, 0; 1973, 1; 1974, 6; 1975, 7.

From an investigation it also appears that murders in prisons do not follow a racial pattern at all. In the Brandvlei Prison only Coloured, and sometimes Bantu prisoners, are detained. The apparent inability of the Department of Prisons to combat this phenomenon, may be ascribed to a variety of causes.

The majority of murders take place after prisoners have been locked up in their cells for the night. In the majority of cases the murders are planned in advance and are committed quickly and unobtrusively. In the majority of cases the victim is strangled. It is also a fact that the method adopted to commit the majority of these murders is strangulation. In the second place the use of dangerous weapons is rife. If the prisoners succeed in drawing the attention of the night warder he cannot, for security reasons, unlock the cell without his colleagues being present. By the time they arrive it is usually too late.

In order to prevent murders from being committed in prisons as far as possible, the Department of Prisons takes certain steps. Prisoners are regularly searched for dangerous weapons; even electronic apparatus is often used for this purpose. The lights in the cells are not doused completely during the night in order to enable warders to see what is going on inside. The relatively large number of murders in the Brandvlei Prison is mainly due to the fact that large numbers of low-grade prisoners are detained there. Members of prison gangs, particularly gang leaders, as well as other prisoners with violent tendencies, are retained in such maximum security prisons like Brandvlei. For obvious reasons it is impossible to lock up every prisoner in a separate cell.

When one considers this entire matter, one cannot but gain the impression that prison staff are daily doing their duty under most dangerous circumstances. It is even possible that—as often happens—prisoners with murderous tendencies may choose members of the prison staff as their victims. In addition, the staff do their duties despite the fact that they are heavily outnumbered by the prisoners. For example, in Pollsmoor prison approximately 2 000 prisoners are controlled by a staff of only 60. I think—and hon. members who have visited these prisons will agree with me—that we should and could only have the highest appreciation for our prison staff for the manner in which they fulfil their task in the South African prisons. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, I should like to associate myself wholeheartedly with what was said by the hon. member for Verwoerdburg a moment ago, and particularly with the first part of the speech where he referred to the PRP. I want to emphasize that I agree with him wholeheartedly. [Interjections.] I find it surprising that the hon. member for Orange Grove is so sensitive. The PRP is always creating the impression of suppression in South Africa. The PRP has the gift to present justice as injustice. In this connection I should like to quote an example. It refers to the question of natural deaths in prisons and particularly to cases where death was caused by pneumonia. The hon. member for Houghton poses this question in the House regularly, and as soon as she has received a reply, she goes to the Press with it. I should like to quote a portion of a leading article in the Rand Daily Mail, which is an important ally of the PRP. On 11 June 1975 it had the following to say—

It is astonishing to see how this newspaper and the PRP are always pretending that the Bantu are being suppressed. However, what this newspaper does not say is how many have died of natural causes. Neither do they mention the number of prisoners who are daily being detained in these prisons. It has no perspective. As a matter of fact, my impression is that one can die anywhere in the world, but if one happens to die in prison there is, according to the PRP, something radically wrong. According to The Cape Times of 7 June 1975, the hon. member for Houghton made, inter alia, the following statement in regard to this matter, because I read in the newspaper—

It is utterances such as these which create the impression among these people that they are being suppressed. The allegations flowing from this is quite obvious, i.e. that prisoners do not receive proper medical treatment or that their complaints are neglected. The hon. member also pointed out that some of the Bantu sleep on sisal mats and that this could possibly cause pneumonia. The hon. member also said that the death rate in prisons owing to pneumonia is very high.

If we study the report of the Commissioner of Prisons we see that the general state of health of the prisoners was excellent and that no epidemics occurred. According to the report 335 prisoners died of natural causes. Sixty of them died of pneumonia. The number of natural deaths in the various population groups, expressed as a percentage of the average daily population in the prisons, amounts to 0,3. Specifically in the case of the Bantu we find that it reveals exactly the same tendency, i.e. 0,3%. The prisons have an average daily population of 98 048. I should like to furnish hon. members with more information in respect of the specific tendency. In 1973-’74 there were 302 deaths and in 1974-’75, 335. This shows an increase of 10,8%. In 1973-’74, 65 deaths occurred among all the population groups as a result of pneumonia, but in 1974-’75 there were only 60 deaths. This shows a drop of 7,7%. When one considers the figures for the Bantu prisoners, one notices that there were 58 deaths due to pneumonia in 1973-’74 and 50 in 1974-’75. This shows a drop of 14%, i.e. a drop of almost twice the percentage decrease in the number of deaths due to pneumonia.

According to information I received on inquiry, an investigation had been carried out involving our district surgeons throughout the country. According to this investigation it appears that prisoners are visited regularly by the district surgeons and, when ill, receive treatment and, if necessary, are admitted to the prison hospital immediately or even referred to a public hospital for treatment. Sick parades are held daily when all complaints are brought to the attention of either the district surgeon or the nursing staff. The fact that non-White prisoners sleep on sisal mats is no contributory factor to pneumonia. It could only be a contributory factor when such a prisoner is already suffering from the disease. These cases are admitted immediately to a hospital, whether the prison hospital or a private hospital.

The death rate in prisons as a result of pneumonia is not out of proportion with that in the outside community. I can quote a few figures. In 1975, 335 prisoners died of natural causes. Sixty died of pneumonia, i.e. 17,9%. As far as the total number of natural deaths of the various population groups outside the prisons are concerned, I obtained the totals of 33 urban magisterial areas in respect of the Bantu. For all races and also in respect of the Bantu in the relevant areas the deaths amounted to 92 558. Altogether 15 619, i.e. 16,9%, died of pneumonia. This is not out of proportion at all with the death rate in the prisons. When one considers specifically the Bantu in the 33 urban magisterial areas, one finds that of a total number of 29 218 natural deaths, 5 226 Bantu died of pneumonia in 1974. According to my calculations there were 18% cases of pneumonia. In the past year 50 Bantu died in the prisons as a result of pneumonia. There were altogether 267 natural deaths. 18,7% died of pneumonia. This corresponds with what goes on outside. The ratios inside and outside the prisons compare very favourably.

There are certain contributory factors. It happens that prisoners are in poor health when they are admitted. Very often they are undernourished. This increases the susceptibility to pneumonia and other diseases. Sometimes a prisoner is suffering so badly of pneumonia on admission that nothing can be done for him. In the majority of cases this also applies when the prisoner’s resistance has already been reduced by another disease. Many of them, particularly non-Whites, have a very low resistance against the disease as a result of, inter alia, their smoking and drinking habits. The district surgeons stated that the quality of the accommodation, the medical treatment and the balanced diet in the prisons contribute a great deal to deaths as a result of pneumonia being limited to the absolute minimum. I also want to point out to hon. members that all the nursing personnel of the department are registered with the South African Nursing Council. They are under the control of the visiting district surgeon and receive their instructions from him. The treatment they are allowed to give is contained in the instructions of the Nursing Council and applies to all classes of nurses.

The conclusion one comes to is that the physical care and the treatment given to prisoners is of such a nature that death through natural causes cannot be attributed to omission or negligence on the part of the department. As a matter of fact, the department deserves only the highest praise for the work it does in this sphere. Our district surgeons also deserve our highest tribute for the enormous work they are doing in this regard.

Mr. Chairman, I listened with interest to the very interesting debate of high standard. I want to thank everyone who participated for the contributions which were made. I really think it was of a very high standard, with the exception of one or two speakers to whom I shall refer in due course.

Before I come to the speeches of hon. members and their requests to me, I should like to avail myself of this opportunity to thank the officials of the Department of Justice personally for an exceptionally interesting and a good year of co-operation. Over the years I have been co-operating with these people I have become aware of the vast extent to which they apply their energies in the service of the department and of the tremendous amount of knowledge with which these people perform their functions and, if I may say so, with less money than the advocates make outside. I cannot but thank these people on behalf of South Africa. This applies to everyone, but in particular to the administrative section of my department and to the magistrates who work exceptionally hard and who dispose of at least between 85% and 90% of the criminal work. A few days ago, for example, I saw a circular written by magistrates to other magistrates in which they encourage one another to find additional methods of lightening and disposing of the rolls. That kind of spontaneous search for solutions in the department is really exceptionally encouraging to any Minister. I also want to thank the judges for the long hours that were worked, for the great deal of work they did and for the fact that, since my appeal to them last year, a great many of them devoted their time to prison inspections and went to the trouble of sending me reports. It gratifies me to be able to say that I did not receive a single inspection report in which the prison service was in any way shown up in a poor light. There were a few minor problems here and there, but the judges wrote that these could be solved very easily, for example, there were places that needed a coat of paint, but as far as the treatment of prisoners, the relations between the staff and the prisoners and the general situation in our prisons was concerned, conditions were extremely favourable, according to the reports which I have here and which I shall make available to any hon. members who are interested in them.

Then, too, I should like to thank the law advisers for all the work that they are doing, and believe me, Sir, I am thoroughly aware of how much work is being done by them. The same applies to the State Attorneys, as well as to the Registrar’s Division. If I had to sketch for hon. members how much work has to be done by the Registrars, in that division, they would be astonished. Their work is completely unknown to outsiders. If you were to ask any person what the Registrar of the Supreme Court does, he would say he does not know, and if I had to sketch for hon. members here what work these people have to do, they would also be astonished at the amount of work they are doing. There is the estates division, the deeds division and the training division. We heard this afternoon how the training division works, and I am certain very few of our members really know about the training division and the work which is being done there.

I should also like to express a word of well-deserved thanks to the prison officials for the dedication with which they are doing their work. This is really a very well-disciplined department, a department in which the work is very different, probably among the most difficult a person can attempt; to be a warder and at the same time a nurse to psychopaths, and a father and philosopher to desolate beings. It is not easy to apply discipline to people and at the same time try to become their friends, or start a rehabilitation scheme in which you yourself are in control of that rehabilitation. It is extremely difficult work, particularly because most of the warder’s time is spent within the prison. The only difference is that he has a key and can go home at 4.30 p.m., to return to the prison the next day. If we count the number of hours spent by warders within the prison we shall see that they have served quite a number of life sentences.

Sir, I come now to individual members. The hon. member for Umhlatuzana referred in the first place to the shortages as indicated in the report. He sympathized with us and I accept that. We are as aware as he is of the problems arising from this for the department. The hon. member for Pietermaritzburg South also discussed this problem. I can furnish the figures straightaway. He gave the percentage, but I am now furnishing the actual figures. [Interjections.] On 31 March 1968 there were 695 legal assistant’s posts, of which 229 had just been filled, i.e. 33%. On 30 April 1969 there were 605 posts, of which 190 had just been filled, i.e. 31%. On 30 September 1974 there were 646 posts, of which 132 or 20% had just been filled. On 31 March 1975 there were 647 posts of which 112, i.e. 17% had just been filled. On 31 December 1975 there were 658 posts, of which only 93, i.e. 14% had just been filled with people who were acting as State prosecutors. Both hon. members were correct when they said that this is the source of supply of magistrates. We are fortunate in that, while we have 3 801 magisterial posts, all of them have just been filled at present, with the exception of between 20 to 30.

3 800 magisterial posts?

Yes, 3 801 magisterial posts, and all of them are filled. This includes all the various grades of magistrates. They are filled with well qualified persons, with the exception of between 20 to 30. Those posts are filled by administrative officers who serve as controlling magistrates at chief magistrates offices. As the hon. member knows, the controlling magistrate is not the magistrate who does legal work, but a person who does administrative work. Up to this stage the department has been fortunate in that, in spite of the fact that the department did not have a sufficiently large source of supply it can still be possible to fill the magisterial posts suitably. The problem, however, is that because the number of prosecutors has diminished to such an extent, it means that the department will not be able to find sufficient magistrates in future. One may therefore expect the situation which is at present prevailing among the prosecutors to begin to apply to the magistrates as well, and that we will have to use completely unqualified persons as magistrates. This is what the department is concerned about, and why we have launched the various schemes to build up the source of supply. If it is possible to supplement the source of supply through the schools by way of recruitment, and if it is possible for the people from the schools to be properly trained at a training college, it will mean that it will be possible to fill the magisterial posts. The most important problem is therefore to recruit prosecutor material from the schools, and I want to admit very candidly to those hon. members who discussed this matter that the Public Service Commission is engaged, although the matter has not yet been finalized, in drawing up another scale for magistrates, for we believe that the magistrates are professional people and as judicial presiding officers they are entitled, according to the recommendation made by the department to the Public Service Commission, to a better dispensation as far as salaries is concerned. At present submissions are being made in an attempt to see whether the position cannot be improved.

The hon. member for Umhlatuzana asked whether various races cannot be used in the various branches of the department. I want to tell the hon. member that we are quite willing to do this. I should also like to inform the hon. member for Durbanville that the department is willing to use more Coloureds and Indians, who are able to do the work and who have the necessary qualifications, in an administrative capacity. Because so many Coloured and Bantu persons are involved in court cases the department is looking for people who can be trained as prosecutors, i.e. Coloureds, Bantu or Indians who can be trained as prosecutors and subsequently even fill magisterial posts. The department is willing to create the posts as soon as the necessary material is found. Here is a great opportunity for Coloureds and Indians to obtain good posts with prospects for promotion in the Public Service, particularly in my department.

Will you pay them the same salaries?

The hon. member knows what the policy of the department is in this regard. The department cannot, at this stage, pay equal salaries. It is not possible, but in due course the difference will be eliminated. The department had a scheme whereby the difference will be eliminated completely in the course of years, so that people will then receive the same salary without disrupting the country’s economy.

Does that apply only to those posts for which there is a shortage of people?

I do not want to act on behalf of the Public Service Commission, but it is not possible to pay those persons salaries which other non-Whites are receiving in the same division. It is just not possible.

Is that not precisely where the problem lies?

We shall discuss this matter with the Public Service Commission in any event and try to give these people the best salaries we can negotiate under the circumstances.

The hon. member also referred to the sale of liquor in the Bantu townships. At present there are approximately 4 000 shebeens—this is stated in the report—in a few of the Bantu townships in the Transvaal. Now, the hon. member says that he feels that instead of providing large beerhalls, we should try to develop the small pub on the comer. The hon. member is correct when he maintains that the Bantu prefer to go to smaller premises where they can obtain liquor, even if they have to pay a little extra for it. The experience of the Police has been that the Bantu pay far more at the shebeens, but in spite of that they still make use of them because they have so many other amenities there, for example, a friendly atmosphere, singing and women. It is an entirely different pattern for them. Personally I am sympathetic to the idea the hon. member raised, I am sympathetic towards it, but the hon. member will also understand that that aspect does not fall under my department. Only the distribution of liquor as such falls under my department, but the kind of shebeen, premises or bar which is provided falls under the Department of Bantu Administration and Development. However, I shall raise the matter and try to promote it from my side. However, I cannot state here that this would be the best for that department. It will depend on that department itself. I can only say that from the point of view of liquor distribution it would seem to me as though this is something that ought to be considered. I also want to say that it would seem to me that this is something which ought to be considered because it would then be possible to have better control over the shebeens and the quality of the liquor. There would also be better control over the tax we are able to collect. At present thousands of rands are simply disappearing into the blue. The tax obtained from those profits would be used for Bantu administration purposes. These are things which can be investigated, and I undertake to have them investigated further and to convey my ideas and proposals in each case to my colleague, the hon. the Minister of Bantu Administration and Development.

The hon. member asked me whether, since there is going to be a one-man commission of inquiry, it is wise to have such a small commission. My experience has been that a large commission prolongs its activities, for there are so many opinions which have to be taken into consideration, and there are also so many commission members who want to do research work here and there. Then the entire matter eventually becomes like the Press Commission which sat for approximately 11 years before a decision was reached. My personal feeling, therefore, is that the commission should remain a small one. My personal feeling is also that the commission should have the right to be able to call in advisers to advise it on certain aspects, not assessors, but advisers, who will be able to give it a better insight into the mentality or the background of the people with whom it is dealing. The point I want to make in this regard is that a one-man commission is better and more quickly able to perform this task.

The hon. member also requested me, since a one-man commission is going to be appointed, please to make an intensive study of the contributory causes. He proposed a number of guide-lines which he felt should be submitted to the commission, which the commission could use and could also investigate. I think the hon. member covered a very wide field. I have not worked out the terms of reference of the commission yet, but I do not think that I will cover as wide a field as the hon. member wants me to. In the first place it would take too much time. In the second place the items which the hon. member enumerated here were of a socio-economic nature, and I do not think that this specific commission, which will be dealing with specific riots, should be burdened with the task. It would take the commission almost half a lifetime if it had to go into all those aspects. I think one should therefore confine the commission to more specific terms of reference so that it can complete its activities and can tell us precisely what went wrong and how it went wrong.

The hon. member for Waterkloof discussed the maltreatment of children. He said he thought it was an abominable crime. I am in full agreement with the hon. member for Waterkloof. Of course questions were put here on a specific case. It was a case in which the father of a family was charged after his young daughter had died. It was a person with seven or eight other children. In the meantime I have found out precisely what happened there. It was suggested here that the presiding regional magistrate imposed too light a sentence—a fine of R50. However, if one studies the record and the argument and verdict of the magistrate one realizes that he gave a very well-considered verdict. It was the Daily Mail in particular which made an attack on the magistrate in question, but what was not mentioned by that newspaper was the fact that a fine of R50 plus a suspended sentence of 18 months was imposed. The magistrate took into consideration that the other seven children had to be properly cared for. If he had therefore imprisoned the family breadwinner immediately, he would not only have been punishing that person—he would have been punishing the wife and the seven children as well. That is why he imposed a suspended sentence of 18 months, and that sentence hung over his head of the father of those children to prevent him doing anything like that again. I think it was a very unfair attack by the Press on the magistrate in question.

Although the maltreatment of children is a hideous crime, I have every confidence that the magistrates of South Africa who deal with such cases, know the facts of the case and have to hear the mitigating and aggravating circumstances, are entirely competent and humane enough to impose the sentence which ought to be imposed. I do not think it is necessary for us to go to any other court. If it falls within the jurisdiction of the magistrate, I have every confidence that our magistrates are able to do this work very thoroughly. I do not think there need be any concern on that score. However, I want to agree with the hon. member for Waterkloof on what can be done. Where cases of this kind occur, the child could immediately be declared in need of care and given to someone else. If excessive punishment is being meted out to a child, take the child away from the parents concerned, and give the child to people who wish to have a little child. Place that child where he will receive better treatment.

The hon. member for Waterkloof also referred to his visit to Pollsmoor. He spoke with great appreciation of what he had seen there, of the people whom he had met there, and of the way in which the warders conducted themselves. This supports my own opinion and my own knowledge of this department, and I am pleased that hon. members were also afforded an opportunity of being able to see the prisons. To the hon. members who belong to this Prisons Group, I just want to say that I intend extending this facility a little. I will most probably make arrangements for the Press to be able to visit these places as well. It is of course a well-known fact that the International Red Cross send people around every year; they do not go to the ordinary prisons, although I have extended an invitation to them to do so. I say they could visit any ordinary prison. In fact I would be pleased if they would do so. I can give the assurance that judges visit the prisons regularly, and they are very satisfied with the position.

The hon. member for Windhoek made his maiden speech. I want to congratulate him very sincerely on it, although I cannot go into all the points which he raised. His speech was very thoroughly prepared and very interesting.

The hon. member for Sandton complained about the international hotels. He said they were all five-star hotels, and that they should not have been such high-rated places, because it meant that the Blacks who were able to go there were limited to a few wealthy persons. In addition he complained because mixed swimming and mixed dancing were not allowed, and because only a percentage of the beds were allocated to Black people. My reply to the hon. member is that he does not understand what the question of international hotels really involves. I am sorry he does not understand this. As a Progressive Reformist he seized upon the idea of an international hotel as a place where they can integrate. That is not the purpose of international hotels at all. The purpose of international hotels was to meet a need. What was the need? The need was to make such facilities available where no such facilities existed for Black people, who nevertheless had a need to stay in an hotel. It is well known that it is the policy of the Government that we believe that there should be hotels for White persons and hotels for Black persons. Where there are enough hotels for Black persons there are no international hotels. The international hotels are only there to meet a specific need. The hon. member will discover that there are in fact hotels with less than a five star grading, which are international hotels. At present there are six five-star hotels, six four-star hotels, 12 three-star hotels, four two-star hotels and one one-star hotel, which are international hotels. They are so situated that they are also found in the rural areas. They have been situated along travellers’ routes where there are no Black or Brown hotels. Where there are Black and Brown hotels, as at Newcastle where there is an Indian hotel, there are no international hotels. In other words, the only object of international hotels was to meet the needs of our Black, Brown and Indian population; just that and nothing more. Therefore we also have, according to the number of Black people entering an hotel after ad hoc applications, determined how many beds should be allocated to these persons. We have found that even the best hotels, which have accommodated the most Black people during conferences, etc., never had a need for more than 10% for Black people. This is an extremely high figure, and we then limited them to 10%. Why are we doing this, Sir? We are doing this because such an hotel is a White hotel which shares its amenities with the Black and the Brown population. We did not do so in order to give such an hotel over to them, simply in order to meet that need. That is why we limited such an hotel owner to a basis of 10% of his beds. We did not want to give the entire hotel to the Black or the Brown people.

The hon. member also reproached me for having banned mixed dancing. I want to tell the hon. member that we are simply not prepared to allow mixed dances to take place. Whether or not the hon. member wants to do it, makes no difference to us. It is the policy of this Government that we do not allow this, for it is total integration and it is something we would not like to have. [Interjections.] The hon. member accused me of “Mother Grundyism”. He said he was unhappy at the fact that we are ramming a calvinistic republic down their throats. I do not want to discuss Sunday matters today. There was a Bill on the Order Paper and it will be introduced here next year. We shall then debate the matter. I want to tell the hon. member that this entire matter is, as far as we are concerned, based on two principles only. The hon. member for Aliwal North discussed this, and I found his speech very interesting because I myself did not know as much about it as he seems to know about it. From my side I do not want to intervene at all in the ecclesiastical arguments on the question of whether a Sunday is a Sabbath or whether a Sabbath is a Sunday, etc. I approached the matter from the point of view of the Government and of an ordinary layman. As far as I am concerned, I am not acquainted with all those splendid things, I am not trained in theology. Although I am a professing Christian, I do not know all the complexities of the argument. But I do want to say that as far as I am concerned, we must allow this as little as possible at church times, whether the hon. member thinks this is “Mother Grundyism” or not. I am not speaking as a Calvinist; I am speaking as an ordinary South African. I must afford all churches the opportunity of doing what they consider to be their God-given task.

I am saying that in a country with a Christian background, such as South Africa, it behoves us to say: Let us put a stop to these things which could hamper the churches in their God-given task. Having said this, I do not mean that I want to close everything on a Sunday. We realize that there are people who would like to go swimming. They can go swimming. I realize there are people who would like to play their radios, and I say “do so”. I realize that there are people who would like to go out, who would like to get onto a horse and go for a ride, and I say “do so”. But what I also say is that where the State has a say, the State must ensure that it does not hamper the churches. That is the responsibility of the State, nothing more than that. I cannot protect the churches. That is the task of the churches. I can do nothing about that, but what I can do is to prevent my hand from placing obstacles in the way of the churches. This I have to do. Hon. members need not agree with me, but I believe that we have already built up a pattern in South Africa, in terms of which we want to keep a Sunday as quiet as possible. If a man has worked hard for six days, he wants to rest on the seventh. He does not want to see advertisements inviting him to see a film or attend a circus or one thing or another. He does not want that obstacle. He does not want to walk the streets and find that all the shops are open. He does not want to buy clothing or shoes, or what have you, on that day. He wants the knowledge that the streets will be as quiet as possible. He concedes that there are other cultural groups as well. Personally I am prepared to respect them. I know that the Bantu do not have as many facilities as we have. If they want their bioscopes open on a Sunday, I would say that we should make an exception in their case.

What I say we must do for the White person is not to make him more wound up by making it possible for him to have all the enjoyment in the world every day of the week. I say six days is more than enough time to go to bioscope. Omit bioscopes on Sundays. There has never before been such a thing on a Sunday.

What about cricket and football?

We shall come to that later. I do not want to go into this point any further at the moment.

This is a local matter. Why should the Government interfere in it?

Mr. Chairman, I do not want to debate this point in full now. I just want to state my standpoint, for it has been said on that side of the House that I am allegedly a Calvinistic “Mother Grundy”. I just want to say that this is not true. I am simply stating my standpoint. We can debate the question of sport and all the other questions at a later stage.

The hon. member for Potgietersrust made an interesting speech on the productivity of the Department of Justice. He brought it to our attention, and quite justifiably so, that there was an increase in production in spite of the shortage of manpower.

The hon. member for Aliwal North, as I have said before, gave a very interesting elucidation, from a Christian point of view, of how we should feel about a Sunday. I agree with him entirely, although I must admit that I would not have been able to argue the matter as he did.

The hon. member for Jeppe discussed legal aid. The hon. member referred me to the American system of legal aid. I can inform the hon. member that when I was in America I made a study of their system of legal aid. The American legal aid is something I do not want. I am saying that candidly to the hon. member. The Americans adopt the standpoint that every individual, regardless of what he stands accused of, must have a lawyer to present his case. This is organized away from the Government. As is typical of the Americans, they do not want to be under the bureaucracy. Their system of legal aid is voluntary, and something of this nature is beyond my control. In South Africa money is appropriated for this purpose by the Government. Unfortunately it is just not possible to provide each individual with legal aid. In any case there are not as many miscarriages of justice as the hon. member believes. Less than 1% of the magistrates’ court appeals are referred back by the Supreme Court, and this in spite of the fact that the defendant is very frequently undefended.

Is it possible for us to offer legal aid to a person in every possible case?

Go and ask Mr. Justice Jan Steyn. He supports it!

It is idealistic, but it cannot be done. Such a thing is simply not feasible. I read what Mr. Justice Steyn had to say. I should not like to criticize one of my judges, but I can give him the assurance that I shall in fact do so in a private conversation.

The hon. member for Brakpan discussed psycopaths. I found it extremely interesting. The hon. member was quite correct. Of our present prison population approximately 51% consist of psychopaths. As the hon. member is aware there is a prison which is set aside exclusively for psychopaths. Detainees are referred there for three months. Psychological and other tests are carried out on them and those of them who are found to be psychopathic, are removed from the ordinary prison and sent to a special prison.

In regard to the speech made by the hon. member for Rosettenville, I want to state candidly that that was not a speech to which I can reply. I cannot reply to it for the simple reason that it was a speech of very high calibre. It was a speech which one simply has to read through at leisure. The hon. member spoke with knowledge and authority. His subject was a technical field with which he is well acquainted. He spoke on the basis of his background. I respect that fact, and I want to give him the assurance that I shall go through his speech again at a later stage. In it he presented very interesting problems, problems of which I take cognizance with appreciation and which I shall also bring to the attention of my department. For the present that is all I can say to the hon. member for Rosettenville. Unfortunately I do not have the technical background which the hon. member has by virtue of his special knowledge.

The phenomenon of psychopathy is very interesting. In my department there is an official with a doctorate in psychopathy. Someone—it was not he—informed me that it was openly admitted at an international conference that that person, who was in the employ of the South African Prisons service, knew more about psychopathy than any of the foreign experts who were present there could ever hope to know; that he had an unequalled knowledge of this specific personality defect. I was proud to hear this. I can give hon. members the assurance that this is one of the matters to which the Prisons service is devoting a thorough study and to which regard will definitely be had throughout. The department is doing everything in its power to try to rehabilitate this type of person.

As hon. members themselves know, psychopathy is at present not necessarily an extenuating circumstance. It is a defect of such a nature that a person suffering from it is not always aware that he has done anything wrong. Such people know what they have done; therefore they remain responsible for their actions although they cannot come to terms with their actions.

The hon. member for Bloemfontein East also discussed legal aid. He presented us with a very accurate picture of legal aid in South Africa. I am very pleased that he did so. I greatly appreciate his doing so. I believe that South African legal aid should in fact be expanded. The principal stumbling-block in the way of doing so is the financial aspect. Therefore, if it was financially possible I should like to render a further service by means of a loan to a person requiring legal aid. If a person should fall outside the reach of legal aid—the limit is fixed at a certain income—I should like it to be made possible for him to obtain a loan from the Legal Aid Board. This would then enable him to fight a court case, a case which had merit. All that the Legal Aid Board has to do is to find out whether the case has merit and whether the person will be able to repay the money. If those two things can be ascertained, then that person should be assisted so that he can uphold his rights in a court. We find in particular that the average salary earner cannot institute legal proceedings against a wealthy man. Usually they admit candidly that they are unable to pay for it, but that if they had been able to borrow the money somewhere they would have contested their rights in court and would have repaid the money, win or lose. Usually such a person cannot afford to do so and then the wealthy man wins by default.

The hon. member for Green Point told me that he could not be present when I replied to his arguments for he had to attend a meeting. The hon. member referred to the Deeds Office and to the delays which can take place there. I am pleased to be able to report that we have reduced the delays to a minimum. Hon. members will recall that the discussion of this Vote was held last year just after a whole series of crises had arisen in Deeds Offices. Those problems have been solved and we appointed a commission to go into the borderline cases of the various districts again, as they fall under the Deeds Offices. I know that there are hon. members on this side of the House who would like to know what happened there. The commission has completed its inquiry and we are now awaiting its report. The report ought to reach me soon and then I will be able to say how the new boundaries have been demarcated.

The hon. member for Bloemfontein West referred to urban terrorism and in that way, in fact, replied to the arguments of the hon. member for Pinelands. The hon. member also referred to the commission of inquiry. I want to give the hon. member the assurance that what he proposed here is something which I can in fact include in the terms of reference of the commission. I have already reacted to the arguments raised by the hon. member for Durbanville. The hon. member referred to more avenues of employment for non-Whites in the courts. I am quite prepared to try to accomplish this. The hon. member for Pinelands did not really ask anything of me, but superciliously told me something. The first words the hon. members always uses is to say how he is “suffering”. The hon. member may as well continue to “suffer”. I am not going to reply to him now, for I think in all honesty that the hon. the Chairman afforded him an opportunity of saying certain things which he should not have said in this debate. I hope to return, during the debate on the Police Vote, to what the hon. member for Pinelands said here. We do have a reply to the argument and I think one of the other hon. members has already furnished him with it.

Is this a reflection on the Chair?

Now I know who precisely was in the Chair and why the hon. member was allowed so much leeway. The hon. member for Schweizer-Reneke referred to the high resignation rate, and made an appeal for new salary structures. I have already explained to the hon. member that as regards the salaries of magistrates, we are submitting a new salary structure to the Public Service Commission. Whether it will be successful, I do not know. The hon. member also touched upon accommodation problems and I want to concede to him that magistrates find themselves in very inconvenient situations when they are transferred from one place to another and there is no accommodation for them. This is also a matter which is receiving attention, but we shall have to wait to hear whether the Public Service Commission is able to grant us this concession.

The hon. member also advocated higher salaries for law advisers. As far as I am concerned, I would of course like to give everyone higher salaries. However, I do not think that the hon. the Minister of Finance would be able to find the means to do this. Nor do I think it would be justified. The Public Service Commission has a task to fulfil and has to keep salaries in the Public Service more or less on a par. This body is better acquainted with the merits of each case than I am, and we simply have to go through the prescribed channels.

I think I have already replied to the hon. member for Pietermaritzburg South. The hon. member referred to legal aid, a matter which I have already discussed in detail. I have already replied to the hon. member for Rosettenville. The hon. member for Verwoerdburg referred to murders committed in prison, and pointed out that the number of murders of this kind are low in comparison with murders in general. Of course we have a tremendous problem in prisons, i.e. the problem of the gangs. In this way, for example, there is the 28 Gang, or the 27 Gang, or 26 Gang, as well as the “Big Five” Gang. Most of these people are people who maintain a rule of terror in prisons. The gangs are based on homosexuality. The people sleep together in a large cell. Once they have marked a person, they can either plant dagga on him or can bring him into disfavour with the warders. If the person does not accept their discipline and join one of the gangs, he simply becomes a man who is marked even further and is then liable to be murdered. Hon. members can understand that that kind of murder is of such a nature that we simply cannot put a stop to it. It is committed very quietly. Nothing is said. As I have said there are various gangs who are able to commit these murders. When the warders enter the cell the next day the person is dead and no one knows how it happened. None of them want to talk. Hon. members can look at the court reports again. Gang murders are one of the biggest problems we have in our prisons. However, I am pleased to be able to support what the hon. member for Verwoerdburg said, i.e. that although there are murders in the prisons the rate is less than that of the murders in South Africa in general.

The hon. member for Klerksdorp referred to deaths in prisons and proved very thoroughly that the deaths are not the fault of the department as such. He pointed out that we are frequently dealing with people who arrive at the prisons in a pathological state.

With this I have replied to all the questions of the hon. members. Once again I want to thank them all for their contributions.

Votes agreed to.

Vote No. 32.—“Police”:

Mr. Chairman, I rise at this stage of the debate merely to ask the hon. the Minister to give us a statement on the recent events subsequent to his last statement in the House. It will be recalled that I put an urgent question to the hon. the Minister, I think on Thursday last week, asking whether he would make a statement in regard to the disturbances in the Transvaal, in response to which the hon. the Minister gave a fairly full statement to the House. Since then there have been momentous events, events in which he as Minister of Police has been intimately involved. I am happy to say that to a large extent the disturbances appear to have been brought under control. However, from Press reports today it does appear that there have been further outbreaks of violence and disturbances on which the House is not well informed. I think it would be appropriate, at this early stage of the proceedings, if the hon. the Minister would make a statement keeping us informed of recent events.

Mr. Chairman, I want to congratulate the Commissioner of Police on his very fine report. It makes one very proud to have a police force as efficient and as well disciplined as it is. The events of the last week have shown us once again that the S.A. Police has been and still remains the first line of defence of the Republic of South Africa. We are grateful to all those ranks, from the commissioner right down to the most junior man, for the magnificent work they did under dangerous and arduous conditions. At the same time I would like to congratulate all those officials of the other Government, provincial and municipal departments who were closely involved in the settling of this tragic event in the annals of South Africa This not only applies to the Witwatersrand but also in the other parts of the Transvaal, in and around Durban, in Zululand and elsewhere. I would also like to include all those citizens in private enterprise who did their full share in ameliorating the lot of the victims of these riots. For one who has served the police for nigh on 39 years and one who has also had his fair share of being involved in riots, faction fights and other manifestations of violent unrest, I salute those men of the Force who were closely involved, the ambulance men, the firemen, the nurses, the doctors, the Railway staff, the bus drivers and all the other workers who strove day and night for the well-being and the betterment of Black victims of this tragic event. I do this in the full knowledge that this unrest which broke out on the Witwatersrand and spread to other parts of the Transvaal, Zululand, Durban and elsewhere, is the subject of a judicial commission of inquiry which has been convened by the hon. the Minister, and for which I wish to express my thanks.

Thanks to the coverage of these events by the excellent television services, the public of South Africa were for the first time brought face to face with the realities of unrest, and were able to see what a difficult task the police had in restoring and maintaining law and order and protecting life and property under such chaotic and frightening conditions. I hope that in future we will have less criticism of the police than we have had hitherto.

What other lessons have we learnt from these events? Firstly, I would like to deal with the public of South Africa. It was able to see for the first time that the police are not a bunch of cruel sadists, neither are they a bunch of “Kaffir kickers” which is always the insult which is hurled at them. Secondly, the Press, together with the television services and the radio, have learnt that they have a heavy responsibility in the presentation of news, whilst vying with each other for the public support which they hope to get, and where their credibility will be at stake. This, I hope, will be brought home to them most forcibly.

There were also lessons to be learnt by the police. I viewed the various television shows with anticipation and the thing that struck me was that there should be one distinct police uniform when men go out on this duty. Combat camouflage outfits create the impression that military personnel are being used, and apart from this, these camouflage outfits are easily obtainable at stores which sell camping outfits and so on. Anybody who is ill-disposed towards South Africa and the police can easily get into one of these camouflage outfits and carry out his nefarious task to the detriment of the police and of South Africa. That is why I plead for a distinct police uniform for riot duties.

Business suspended at 18h30 and resumed at 20h00.

Evening Sitting

Mr. Chairman, when proceedings were suspended, I was talking about the inadvisability of wearing camouflage uniforms on riot duties, as this was open to abuse by ill-disposed people towards the force and the country. I should like to know from the Minister whether he is satisfied that the weapons used are the latest and the most effective. Apart from the fire-arms, can the Minister satisfy this Committee that the protective gear, such as helmets and transparent shields, are the best obtainable? After all, soft combat hats in riots are no protection against rocks and stones. Is the best use being made of batons, water cannons, gas and rubber bullets? Is sufficient use being made of loud-hailers and public-address equipment? Whilst appreciating that TV teams came into the scene only after events had become newsworthy, I confess that I was struck by the lack of evidence of this type of riot equipment whereas fire-arms were in abundance and were prominent. In passing, it is also obvious that a few members of the Force need a little “opknapping”, a little bit of shaking up in the use and handling of fire-arms. Nothing makes my blood boil more than to see a senior policeman wandering around carrying his revolver as though it were a cane. It looks sloppy and it made a bad impression on me. These people have holsters, and that is where the weapons go. They do not carry them around in their hands. In any case, that is not the way to treat a fire-arm. I raise these queries in a constructive spirit, now that the police will come more and more under the glare of TV, but also for the benefit of the policemen themselves.

The hon. the Minister and this House must now be aware—events have proved it in a more spectacular fashion than anyone could ever realize—that the police at large should be divorced from the Public Service Commission. I think the public, members of this House and everybody were struck by the arduous and dangerous conditions under which these men work. I think the time has now come to make another approach about divorcing the police from the Public Service Commission. Time does not permit of my repeating the plea which has been made from this side of the House from year to year, but I would plead with the hon. the Minister to take the plunge and to bring the police under its own board of control, or some other body of that nature. It is no good equating police conditions and pay with those of members of the Public Service who work regular hours, and also overtime.

We know that the police will investigate and will find out the reasons and what was behind this unrest. I make a plea to the Minister to be loyal to the men of the Force, and that whoever is found to have been behind this thing, whether there was neglect or not, he will take the plunge and stand by his men, even if it means that some of his own colleagues will come under fire. [Interjections.]

We have read in this report how understaffed the police are, in spite of the wonderful recruiting effort that has been made. However, I am afraid that unless we can get the police away from this and put them on their own pay structure, separate from the Public Service Commission, we will get these discharges where men under misguided ideas feel that they can do better for themselves outside.

Mr. Chairman, I promised the hon. member for Umhlatuzana that I would issue a statement on the present situation in regard to the riots immediately after the dinner adjournment. After my statement in this House on 17 June 1976 I can now inform this Committee further that on 18 June the riots spread to the East Rand, the West Rand, the University of the North at Pietersburg, the University of Zululand and to Alexandra Township on the northern outskirts of Johannesburg.

The rioters in these places followed more or less the same pattern as in Soweto by burning down and looting buildings, throwing stones and other objects, setting fire to vehicles and attacking members of their own race.

As hon. members know, all open-air meetings were also banned on 18 June and a serious warning was issued by the Government to the effect that the police had instructions to take firm action so that law and order could be restored.

On Saturday, 19 June, a few minor, isolated incidents still occurred, but there was every indication that the situation was returning to normal. With the disturbances subsiding the police were able to make a survey of casualties and damage to property over the past few days since 17 June.

Without going into particulars, I just want to give hon. members a short summary of casualties and damage to property. The figures which I am furnishing here relate only to the Witwatersrand and the two Black universities:

Persons killed

128 non-Whites,

2 Whites 130

Persons injured

1 112 non-Whites 6 Whites 1 118

Members of the Force injured: 22

As far as the number of persons killed and injured are concerned, I want to point out very specifically that these numbers do not in any way imply that all the persons were killed or injured as a result of police action. A thorough investigation will be instituted into each case to determine under what circumstances these people were killed or injured.

Beer halls and bottle-stores damaged:

27 burnt down

39 damaged

Bantu Administration Board Offices:

33 burnt down 19 damaged

Schools:

9 burnt down 1 damaged

Hostels:

5 burnt down 3 damaged

Banks:

1 burnt down

2 damaged

Clinics:

3 burnt down

2 damaged

Libraries:

1 burnt down

Dwellings:

4 burnt down

Buses:

18 destroyed by fire 46 damaged

Private vehicles:

50 destroyed by fire 13 damaged

Police vehicles:

1 destroyed by fire

40 damaged

Trucks and tractors:

13 destroyed by fire

3 damaged.

As a result of evident agitation on 20 June, a wave of vandalism occurred this morning in the Bantu areas of Pretoria and vicinity.

According to the latest particulars which the Police have at their disposal, the casualties and damaged property are as follows:

Atteridgeville:

Hotel and bottle-store damaged.

Mabopane:

3 buses and 2 trucks destroyed by fire

20 buses partially destroyed by fire or damaged by stones

3 motor vehicles destroyed by fire

3 motor vehicles damaged

B.B.K. bus shed burnt down.

An attack was made on a White farmer on a small-holding. He was injured and his house burnt to the ground, while his livestock was mutilated and killed.

Mamelodi:

Administrative offices and beer hall partially destroyed by fire and one bottle-store looted.

Hammanskraal:

Magistrate’s office partially detroyed by fire.

High school burnt down.

Sibasa:

Book shop of the Dutch Reformed Church set on fire.

Casualties:

9 killed

4 Bantu and 1 White injured.

The total is therefore: 139 persons killed and 1 123 injured. These are the present figures. I am also furnishing the following particulars concerning damaged property and injuries and/or loss of life:

EAST RAND

Nigel District:

1 Beer hall burnt down

1 Beer depot looted

1 Municipal bus destroyed by fire

2 Municipal office windows shattered

1 School damaged

1 Delivery truck set on fire.

Benoni District:

2 Schools damaged—by stone-throwing.

1 Supermarket damaged—by stone throwing

1 Bank damaged—by stone-throwing

1 Bottle-store damaged—by stone-throwing

2 Post Offices set on fire

1 Business centre damaged—by stone-throwing

1 Bantu Administration Board office window shattered

1 Funeral parlour window shattered

1 Restaurant window shattered

2 Vehicles destroyed by fire

Arrests: 9

Injured: 5

Killed: 1

Witzieshoek Bantu Training College:

Break-in and attempted arson

7 arrested.

Mr. Chairman, as hon. members can infer from the figures, the arson is widespread. It would seem to me as though this is the pattern the riots are assuming, viz. arson. I think this House would agree with me when I say tonight that South Africa cannot afford to have buildings burnt down in this way and that the police, where necessary, should take very firm action against any re-occurrence of arson. I also want to say that we cannot, under any circumstances, tolerate the spread of these riots and that the police will have to adopt very serious measures to deal with this matter.

Before I deal with the annual report again, I should like to express my appreciation to the hon. member for Umlazi for having adopted such a positive attitude in respect of the handling of this matter by the Police. From outside the feeling of the public is represented by this letter which I received this morning from an English-speaking person, who wrote as follows—

I, too, should like to express my appreciation to the Police, to the Commissioner of Police and all the officers and men who were not only involved in this matter, but have to guarantee our safety every day of the year. Hon. members will find particulars on the first page of the annual report concerning cases of people who died whilst on duty in the course of the year. There are 19 of them. I should like to pay tribute to these people, and say to their next of kin that we regret their deaths and give their next of kin the assurance that we sympathize with them and have great appreciation for the sacrifice these men made. Nineteen Whites died in the course of their duties, and 16 non-Whites. To the next of kin of the latter, too, I want to express the same sympathy, and tell these people that we are proud that these men are at our side in the Police Force.

I should now like to say something about honourable mention and awards. I want to extend my sincere congratulations to all the policemen who received the police stars, medals and so on, and express the hope that they will still have a long service in the police force and bring as much honour to the force as they have already done.

Mr. Chairman, on behalf of this side of the House I should like to associate myself with the tribute paid by the hon. the Minister to those policemen who lost their lives in the execution of their duties. While reading the annual report which we have before us I gained the impression that next year we shall not have such a calm, quiet annual report from the S.A. Police when we discuss this Vote. The past five days have set enormous demands on the policemen, not only from the Commissioner to the most junior constable, but from the Minister to the most junior constable. Since last Thursday the police have acquitted themselves of their task in a masterly fashion.

It is very clear that the riots were planned to set the whole of South Africa aflame. It was not a matter of language grievances; that was merely the peg on which the riots had to be hung. Evidence is now coming in from all quarters of cases where no language grievances were at issue, but where riots nevertheless broke out. Evidence of communities which were sleeping peacefully when schools caught fire, is now becoming available. This points to a very clear, planned calculation to start a conflagration in South Africa during this particular year of the Transkei’s independence and other highlights, and make it a cauldron of violence.

It is primarily the task of the police to act preventatively in times like these. Thus far it is very clear that in the midst of the utmost provocation they have acquitted themselves of their task in an outstanding way and have displayed superhuman self-control. When one reads about the kind of provocation they were subjected to in Soweto on Thursday and Friday, from both the Blacks and those Whites from Wits, one is amazed at the superhuman self-control displayed. To me, their self-control is most evident from the fact that the Commissioner of Police was able to announce this morning that apparently only 42 of the 130 who were killed, were killed as a result of police action. This means that the blood of the others will probably be found on the hands of the activists. The others were in the pay of the agitators and the activists. The bereaved will have to seek comfort from those people. Where do those riots come from all of a sudden, now that we should be reaping the fruits of the years of positive work to establish a model state in South Africa?

I first just want to say something more. No one could regret the recent events more than we on this side of the House do. No one is more heartsore or disappointed about this than are we on this side of the House.

Last Thursday the hon. Leader of the PRP saw fit to request a snap debate on this matter, and he began by saying that the blame for these events should not be placed on the shoulders of the “so-called activists”. That is the expression he used—“so-called activists”. [Interjections.] However, was he in contact with Chief Buthelezi yesterday? Was he at a meeting in Soweto addressed by Chief Buthelezi yesterday? I ask him this question. [Interjections.] He was at a meeting in Soweto addressed by Chief Buthelezi yesterday. Why does that hon. member not answer me? If he was in Soweto, I want to ask him whether he had a permit to be there?

You are quite wrong.

He denies it. However, was he in contact with Chief Buthelezi? I ask him whether he was in contact with Chief Buthelezi.

Where?

It does not matter where.

Does one have to have a permit to be with him?

I ask whether he was in a Bantu residential area with Chief Buthelezi.

No.

No. [Interjections.]

Order!

He must tell us who must carry the blame … [Interjections.]

Order!

The communists and the anarchists have worked out an exceptional tactic in Europe over a very long period which is known as the tactic of “j’accuse”, which means “I accuse”. In other words, “I, the criminal, accuse the ruler and the police and the community of in fact being the criminals themselves.” There is a group of “j’accuse”ers sitting in this Parliament. There is a group of people sitting in this Parliament that is constantly accusing the Government of the most atrocious deeds. [Interjections.]

Order!

The hon. member for Pinelands is a past master in the tactic of “j’accuse”. [Interjections.]

Order! Hon. members must please refrain from making so many interjections. I cannot hear the hon. member.

I want to ask the PRP what their standpoint is in regard to the atrocious exploitation of schoolchildren who have been pushed forward in riots. What is their standpoint with regard to the hate which emanated from those children and which has been pumped into them? The hon. member for Sea Point states that it is not “so-called activists” who are responsible for this action. Then they must tell us who are the people who are responsible for this, because they know them. They are in contact with them. Sir, we warned them that they should not bring about polarization in South Africa. Often in the course of this session we have warned them against the polarization of English-speaking people, together with Blacks, against Afrikaners. Last week we had this in Soweto. The conduct there was attributed to Afrikaans. The Rand Daily Mail then wrote that Afrikaans was “the language of the police station, the pass office and the oppressor”. This is the kind of language and the spirit which South Africa is getting from the PRP in these times. [Interjections.] We want to tell the police that their task in the days that lie ahead is going to be a superhuman one. We stand by them. They have shown their mettle, and we can only say to them, in the words of G. A. Watermeyer—

Mr. Chairman, I rise to break a lance for the police of South Africa. The other evening I was one of the members of the Justice group that was invited by the Commissioner of Police, Gen. Prinsloo, to go and inspect the method being used to combat crime in the cities. I must say that I, as a country dweller, was not only impressed; the police filled me with admiration, due to the way in which they carried out their task with tact, zeal, efficiency and absolute knowledge. Even on the platteland, where I have a better knowledge of the situation, one can only praise the way in which the police consistently act.

Actually, I want to discuss a different subject this evening, viz. the issue of terrorism. The combating of terrorism is one of the most important tasks of the police in the modem world we are living in. It is a task which the police will have to gear themselves to and concentrate on to an increasing extent, because these will be the conditions we shall have to reckon with in the future. We know that the word “police” derives from the old Greek word “polis”, which means a city. We also call to mind immediately the Acropolis within Athens which formed the centre of that city. That is where the Latin word “politeia” came from, meaning “the guardians of the city”, the people who maintain law and order within that city. That was their original task. Indeed, they were not there to wage war between various states, because there were soldiers for that. It came about that as a result of that situation we found ourselves in, states made war on each other. Over the years and the centuries, various legal rules have been established relating to the warfare, neutrality and everything that war involves. We call to mind, for example, the Peace Conference of Westphalia as long ago as 1648. We also call to mind the Congress of Vienna in 1814, the Holy Alliance of 1849, the Declaration of Paris in 1854, the various Hague conferences between 1887 and 1907 and all the writers on international law. There is the father of modem international law, Grotius, who lived from 1583 to 1645, his successors, like Emmerich de Vattel and Samuel Pufendorf, and all the writers who established for us a system of rules on which international law could be based. As a result of three events in the modem world, we can throw away virtually everything that has been written in international law and arranged between states, because those legal rules no longer exist. This is due to the rise of terrorism as we know it today. This is due chiefly to three factors. The first is the invention of the atom bomb. Conventional warfare as we knew it may still occur periodically, but in essence we shall not come across it again in its previous form. We know that a small bomb which destroyed Hiroshima was only a 20 kiloton bomb. Today we know that America alone possesses 100 000 megaton bombs. In other words, it can destroy 1 000 cities as big as London in one second.

The second reason for its being necessary to adopt an entirely new approach to warfare is the fact that after the Second World War we reached the point, for the first time, of regarding the losers as war criminals. Thirty years after the war they are still being regarded as war criminals, and it happens from time to time that losers are brought before the courts as criminals. This is something which has never occurred before in the history of the world.

Thirdly, there is the fact that the UNO has shown beyond the shadow of a doubt that it is powerless to maintain peace in the world. In fact, it is interesting to note that when one looks at the wars that have taken place in Africa, for example those in Uganda, Nigeria, Ethiopia, the Sudan, the Congo, Angola and Mozambique—not to speak of Vietnam and all the other places—it appears that more people have died since the founding of the UNO in 1946 than those who died in combat in the Second World War.

Due to these factors we can say that we have entered a new era in the method of warfare, viz. one of terrorism which is regarded as a modem science. In contrast to the position under the old international law which described the rules of warfare, we are faced with the irony that in the case of terrorism there are absolutely no rules. It is not soldier against soldier, it is simply murder. It is not person against person, but they are criminals that attack and destroy women, children and property. It is a new science which the world will have to reckon with in the future. It is therefore a task which the police will be faced with to an increasing extent. One now has the interesting position that the UNO today is powerless to stamp out this violence. In fact, it was hoped that the UNO would at least be able to find a solution for every problem which arose. In fact, only the opposite occurred. For every solution that exists today, the UNO has created at least three problems. The situation at present is such that we who are part of the modern world are faced with the new science of terrorism, something which is for the most part left to the police to combat. They are the protectors of the city. They are the protectors of the country. They are the people who have to bear the brunt when difficulties occur, such as those in Soweto last week; such as those that have also occurred in the past in South West Africa.

If I may, I should like to put it this way. This new, modem science, terrorism, will in future become an everyday word, a household word in the world. In future centuries terrorism will form part and parcel of human existence, alongside ordinary things like breakfast and lunch. There is no doubt on that score. That is why the combating of terrorism is not a task for the police alone. It is a task for the Defence Force, too, and for the ordinary citizen of the country in particular. The aim of terrorism is to provoke a long drawn-out struggle, a struggle which does not abate, until those at whom it is aimed eventually, through fear, throw in the towel.

To those who make common cause with terrorist activities against South Africa, I want to say that the Beggars of the Sea fought for their freedom for 80 years and, as I know the South Africans, they will fight for 180 years for their freedom, particularly as far as the combating of terrorism is concerned. No-one must think that they can intimidate South Africa. Nothing of the kind will ever happen. We shall not allow it. However, the ordinary citizen will have to realize that he undoubtedly has a task in the new dispensation that has now come about, that he will form part of the struggle, that he will have to play an active role in the combating of terrorism in the world we are living in. I shall even go so far as to say that those who are opposed to the combating of terrorism—terrorism as we have already learnt to know it in South West Africa, and now again in Soweto—will be branded and termed traitors. They do not deserve any other name. Their only aim is to destroy order and the country we are living in.

Consequently I want to make an appeal this evening for much more severe punishment to be meted out to terrorists than is the case at the moment. When anyone is guilty of terrorist activities, the destruction of property, the incitement of people against people and of the kind of thing that has happened in Johannesburg recently—and I can give hon. members the assurance that there are at least 200 guilty parties; they, of course, are the agitators—then it is my contention that he should be subjected to the most severe punitive measures. The hon. the Minister must take the lead in this respect so that such people may be exposed and even, if necessary, be given the death penalty.

Mr. Chairman, I find myself in full agreement with the hon. member for Middelland, in that I believe that … [Interjections.]

Mr. Chairman, may I put a question to the hon. member?

Mr. Chairman, I cannot answer questions now. Mr. Chairman, I find myself in full agreement …

Mr. Chairman, will the hon. member please tell us to what Party Dr. Selma Browde belongs? [Interjections.]

All right, I will answer that question. Mr. Chairman, I must say that we are very proud to have Dr. Selma Browde as a member of our party. [Interjections.] I want to return, however, to some of the things said by the hon. member for Waterkloof. That hon. member does not seem to acknowledge the problems which are being experienced by many of the people in this country, but he cites as the cause of unrest, not the problems, but the pleas made by us and by many other people to solve those problems. If ever someone is putting a thing upside down, that hon. member does.

Only today we have had to read in Die Beeld the editorial from which I want to quote the following paragraph—

This long editorial carries on in this trend. However, the essence of it is that there are problems and it is vital and urgent that those problems be looked at. [Interjections.] If these hon. members remain blind to the problems of the people in South Africa, insensitive to their grievances, lethargic in reacting to real pleas for assistance, then we are going to have a great deal more trouble in South Africa and much more bloodshed in the years to come. The outcome of the situation is in the hands of the Government.

This is no ordinary police debate, because we are not holding our discussion in usual ordinary atmosphere. In the past we talked about recruiting, about new methods, about salaries, about Suggestions to be examined and we talked about it in a quiet and non-contentious way. But after the events which took place last week and after the summing-up statement given by the hon. the Minister this evening, this has become a most important few hours for us all. I believe this debate calls for cool heads and calculated words, and I think we have to see to it that we speak responsibly here tonight. Suddenly, without outward warning, the police in the Witwatersrand was subjected to perhaps the hottest and toughest of tests that they have been subjected to for a long time. In his other capacity, the hon. the Minister has already announced the appointment of a one-man judicial commission to undertake the task of investigating the causes and events of last week. In the near future police actions, its strengths and its weaknesses, will come under close public scrutiny. It is much too early to draw final conclusions now. However, I believe there are a few things that we can say and after that put a few questions.

Even in times of calm the police task is not an easy one, but very difficult. During times of tension and disorder, their task is incredibly difficult, for instance last week, when they found themselves operating in a hostile and explosive atmosphere, interposing themselves, standing between those who were protesting and rioting and the authorities of which they are seen to be the symbols and so performing an unavailable and thoroughly dangerous job. To clear all misunderstanding out of the way, I should like to say—and I want hon. members to listen to this—that there are hundreds of thousands of South Africans of all political persuasions and colours who are deeply grateful to the South African Police for the protection afforded to them during last week’s crisis. And so am I. Now, in that spirit—if hon. members on that side of the House will accept my bona fides—I should like to raise a few matters to which the hon. the Minister can reply either now or later.

The first one relates to a series of incidents starting on Tuesday, 8 June, at the Naledi school where, according to a statement made to me, an officer tried to arrest a schoolboy chairman of the Students’ Christian Movement. The attempt ended in failure, the officer’s car was burnt and I believe the officer escaped unhurt. The next day during school hours a further attempt was made to arrest this same boy, but it also proved abortive. By this time the entire school was in a state of tension and anger. Against that background and against the background of the already tense language problem which had been experienced, this young man’s home was visited on a Sunday or a Monday in the early hours of the morning—probably 13th or 14th June—when he was spirited away and has not been seen again. It was after that action that the students of Naledi got together and planned this ill-fated and tragic march. I want to know why that boy was arrested and what has happened to him. A further question which bears answering is: Could more tactful police handling of that particular matter, in that emotion-full atmosphere, not have prevented that bloody spark from being ignited at that moment? The answer is not clear, and I know it, but the answer should be found, because great and important lessons in tactics and tact have to be learned.

Then came the events at Phefeni school. The generally accepted sequence of events is: Taunts by the students, tear gas by the police; stones by the students, bullets from the police. These policemen were clad not in helmets, but with soft hats. They had no protective face or body covering, and hoses were not available. They had no weapons less lethal than bullets, guns and revolvers. That they were threatened, is a fact. What happened thereafter is past history. However, tell us because we should like to know … [Interjections.]

Order! I am going to name hon. members if they do not stop making interjections.

I should like to know why, at that moment, they were so few in number. Why were they not clothed then or later in proper protective clothing, proof against stones and sticks, thus giving them a greater sense of security? Why were they not equipped with weapons of a modem riot squad, for instance …

Mr. Chairman, may I put a question to the hon. member?

I am sorry, Sir, no … for instance, shields, hoses, hose-trucks, rubber bullets and other non-killing aids? Could not some of this bloodshed have been avoided if that had been the case? It is well known that antipathy exists between that side of the House and the University of the Witwatersrand. It is a well known fact that there is antipathy between Wits students and the police. But I say, was it necessary …

That is untrue. [Interjections.]

Order! I must ask the hon. member for Lydenburg please to refrain from making interjections.

Was it necessary to use the degree of force that was used to disperse the march through the streets of Johannesburg, irresponsible as that march might have been? I want to know what role was played during the last few days by the police reservists, Black and White. Nothing has been said about this group of people whose very purpose is as a back-up to the standing force at a time of crisis.

There is a last point I should like to raise. I believe the fact must be acknowledged, that while hundreds of thousands of South Africans look upon the Police Force, correctly, as protectors and as guardians of the law, there are, in fact, large numbers of people, persons mostly not White, who see the Force in another less favourable light. We have to face that fact. They see the Police Force as the symbol of oppression, as the symbol of apartheid. This is not necessarily the fault of the police; that is not the point I am trying to make. It is not the fault of the police in all cases. But surely, in the light of that fact, the time has come to take a leaf out of the book of the army, and to embark upon a programme geared at gaining the goodwill, the friendship and the cooperation of all the people in the urban townships, young and old, and thus be better placed in times of crisis to defuse flash points rather than to be helpless in the face of spontaneous or even in the face of contrived escalation and combustion.

Mr. Chairman, it was with the utmost regret and surprise that I heard the concluding remarks of the hon. member for Sandton. I am still waiting for him to condemn the arsonists. I am still waiting for him to condemn the Wits students who so irresponsibly took part in this uprising. However, what we have heard here is a diatribe against the police, the police who went there. [Interjections.]

As a symbol of oppression, they say.

That is quite untrue.

As a symbol of oppression? I am most surprised, but I must say that I should not be surprised. At this point of time all of us on this side of the House know that one can rely on the PRP for one thing—to be unpatriotic. [Interjections.]

Mr. Chairman, on a point of order: Is the hon. member allowed to accuse other hon. members of being unpatriotic? [Interjections.]

Order! The hon. member for Pretoria West may proceed.

Mr. Chairman, on a point of order, is the hon. member for Innesdal allowed to call another member an agitator?

Order! Did the hon. member for Innesdal use that word? If so, he must withdraw it.

Mr. Chairman, I withdraw the word.

As soon as the hon. members of the PRP know they are wrong they interrupt with interjections and on points of order to waste the time of the person who is speaking so that he cannot complete his speech.

Mr. Chairman, on a point of order: Is it not a reflection on the Chair to say that you would allow members to waste time with points of order which have been upheld by you? [Interjections.]

Order! Hon. members must please give me a chance to listen to the hon. member. [Interjections.] The hon. member for Pretoria West must please resume his seat.

My point of order is that the hon. member for Pretoria West is alleging that the points of order that have been made by us … [Interjections.]

Order! If hon. members do not stop making these interjections I shall ask them to leave the Chamber.

Mr. Chairman, the hon. member can have his entire 10 minutes if he so wishes. The hon. member is alleging that certain members of this party are raising points of order to waste the time of the House, despite the fact that you have upheld the point of order raised by me. I consider that to be a reflection on your ruling.

Order! The hon. member for Pretoria West may proceed.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I expect further time-consuming incidents to occur during the course of my speech, but I shall nevertheless continue until it happens.

It is my duty and my task to discuss assaults on the police. Apart from the verbal assaults on the police that are made in this House, they are also assaulted outside this House when they try to do their duty to protect our country and our people. It is true—I want to admit this at once—that if one looks at the particulars which have been furnished in reply to questions which the hon. member for Houghton asked, one finds that there are certain policemen who have been found guilty of assault on members of the public in the course of their duty. However, if one makes a small calculation—I have done so, but because some of my time was wasted, I shall only be able to discuss this aspect briefly—it is clear to one that only one assault has taken place in approximately 660 000 man-hours during which the police have been on duty. It is, in other words, an exceptionally small number of assaults. The matter goes further, however, because many of the assaults are of a highly technical nature because a person might have exceeded the limit of the force which he may use when he arrests a person in the execution of his duty. Many of the cases are, therefore, technical assaults.

There is something else, however, which affects me deeply and causes me anxiety: During the past year there have been 5 845 assaults on the police themselves. I am not even talking about the assaults at Soweto some of which we have seen on television, because with every stone which has been thrown at a policeman and which struck him, an assault was committed. That has not even been counted. The hon. the Minister also added that there had been a further 22 assaults on the police. If I read the climate correctly and if I understand the voters of South Africa correctly, we are not satisfied that the police are being held in contempt, abused and assaulted in this way. It is time the police were accorded the respect to which they are entitled and which their behaviour shows us they deserve.

In this respect a few steps have to be taken and I should like to mention two such steps at the outset. I believe that our unqualified compliments should be extended to the hon. the Minister of Police and the Commissioner of Police for their handling of events in Soweto under very difficult circumstances. I should like to make it clear that we have full confidence in the handling by the police of these matters and that our thoughts go out to them in the front line in these dangerous times. The taunts, the contempt as well as the insults by word and by implication in this House has to stop now. Therefore I should like to make a few suggestions and I should like to present them to the hon. the Minister of Police for his consideration. When a policeman is assaulted, it should be regarded as far more serious than an ordinary assault, for it does not affect this person as a policeman, but as the symbol of law and order. Therefore I think it is time that heavier specific penalties should be imposed in respect of assaults on police in the performance of their duties.

There is another aspect I should like to touch upon. Unfortunately I do not have the latest figures with me, but I think that 133 persons were killed and more than 1 000 persons were injured during the riots. However, I ask myself the question: If the police had departed from the principle of the minimum violence sooner, would not more lives have been saved and would not more buildings have been saved from being burnt down? In other words, our police are using the principle of the minimum of violence until the last stage. I should like to suggest to the hon. the Minister for his consideration that a police officer with a certain rank should be granted the discretion, in certain circumstances where it is necessary in his opinion to save lives, to be able to depart from the principle of the minimum of violence. The principle of the minimum of violence is correct according to our common law, but the time has come in South Africa that discretion should be granted to a high police officer to be able to depart from the principle of the minimum of violence, for the protection of Black lives in this case.

The third point I should like to raise, is that our police are working in extremely difficult circumstances and that their job is made more difficult by the Press. The Press is publishing photographs which criticize the police and if the police are criticized, they lose the respect of the population and then their task becomes more difficult. Therefore I feel, under the prevailing circumstances, that we should consider limiting the Press sooner as far as the publication of photographs are concerned which have in fact been posed. These are not photographs of what actually happened, but have been fabricated by the photographer and sent abroad. It is outrageous that the Press did not show the responsibility, in the circumstances which have been experienced during the past few days, of increasing self-control in the interests of South Africa. In my opinion they have demonstrated that action should now be taken in the interests of South Africa in order to be able to deal with the situation correctly. The Prime Minister, if I remember correctly, spoke about rumours having been spread that a bomb had exploded on the station of Johannesburg and that 40 people had been injured. We cannot afford rumours of that kind, and if the people do not have responsibility, we simply have to curb them. I want to say that the time has arrived in South Africa when our people should honestly realize in their hearts how diligent and honourable the police are and how they are serving in the front line to avert violence away from their own families for five or six days. Furthermore, they are being taunted! We have to show them the respect they deserve. After all, Mr. Chairman, it is your son, our children who have to fight in the front line for our country. I am not only speaking about Whites, I am also speaking about our Coloured policeman and our Black policeman. They deserve our respect. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, I know that feelings are running high this evening, and I expect them to run a little higher towards the end of the evening. To begin with I want to thank the hon. the Minister for his firm action over the past week. South Africa looks to him and to the police to guarantee peace and quiet for this beautiful country. Whatever it may cost, peace and quiet will be guaranteed by the hon. the Minister and the police. I want to pay tribute to those men, from the highest to the lowest ranks, and thank them for what has been done for the people, not only over the past week, but in recent years. When we are all sleeping peacefully, the police is the watchdog guarding us. Do we think every day about those men who brave the cold, have to endure inclement weather conditions and often work in difficult circumstances?

They protect every individual in the country and they guard our property. When we are here in the Cape for the session, they guard our property in the rest of the country. We are very grateful to them for this. They guard our property when we go on holiday. How many of us, when we return to our homes, just go to the commanding officer and thank him for what he has done? I know there are people who do this. I also want to thank those non-Whites and Whites who assisted the police over the past few days and provided them with food in the cold weather. They gave them coffee and warm soup and I think this is highly appreciated. We are particularly grateful to those Black people.

This evening I want to maintain that it was the small numbers that caused this unrest. It is not the majority in Soweto, nor is it the propaganda against Afrikaans in the schools, but it is the people who, as the hon. member for Houghton said, would recognize the Communist Party if they came to power. It is the English Press that indoctrinates these people every day and suggests things to them. If one has read the Rand Daily Mail and the Sunday Times over the past few days one expects more trouble to occur. They are inciters; they are people who fan the flames of violence. On whose shoulders rests the heavy responsibility to guarantee peace and quiet? On the shoulders of the police and, as the hon. member for Pretoria West said, the White, Brown and Black police who are serving our beloved fatherland. After all, it is their fatherland too.

I want to make an earnest appeal to the hon. the Minister and ask him something. There are certain traditions in which the Black man believes. I want to ask the hon. the Minister—the Commissioner of Police is also present this evening—to bring back the Kgotla system in Soweto so that the Black man can deal with that tsotsi element according to his tradition and laws. I also want to make a further appeal this evening to the hon. the Minister to use the English and Afrikaans, as well as the Tswana, Sotho, and Xhosa transmitters to make an appeal to the Black people and tell them that we appeal to the loyalty of the Black man to protect their own property in those Bantu towns. They must come to the fore—I am not implying hereby that the police are not sufficiently capable—and they must solve the problem of the tsotsi element in co-operation with the police. I know those areas and I know those Bantu towns. There is only one way in which the tsotsi will come right: his own people must deal with him.

There are political tsotsis present here, too, but the hon. the Minister will have to deal with them. The hon. the Minister will have to deal with those tsotsis who worm their way into our politics and who will be a burden to us in the future. We have our secret police for that.

The time has come for us to act. I endorse every word spoken by the hon. member for Pretoria West when he pointed out that the time has come for us to act. These people are being incited. It is not a group of school children who are being pushed forward. I cannot state this as a fact, because we do not have confirmation, but I understand that a photo appeared in a newspaper of a small Bantu girl lying dead holding a placard. I understand it is a lie. There is no such thing. She was paid by a certain newspaper to go and lie there and she and the placard were photographed. I should like an investigation to be instituted into this and I ask the hon. the Minister to institute an investigation into whether there is in fact such a body in the mortuary. A census will have to be taken. A death certificate and a record will have to be kept of every casualty. I should like to know what became of that Bantu child. Was a similar small Bantu girl in fact shot dead by the police, as is being maintained? It is unfortunate that these things have occurred. However, these things have occurred, but they occurred a long time ago. After all, there is politics behind this uprising. They were only waiting for our beloved Prime Minister to go to Europe to hold talks with American and other heads of state. Then this diabolical element broke loose, an element which has been driven underground by our security police and other forces. They appeared at this stage in order to strike like a gang of robbers, vultures and hyenas attacking a carcass in the bushveld in order to tear it to pieces. [Interjections.]

Order!

I hope the hon. member for Yeoville is listening because I now want to put a question to him. Does he agree with the speech just made by the hon. member for Sandton? Come, be honest with me?

Mr. Chairman, may I put a question to the hon. member?

No, that hon. member does not need to put a question. I am putting one now. [Interjections.] I do not believe he can agree with that conduct. I now want to ask the hon. member for Sea Point: What he has been plotting with Chief Buthelezi yesterday and today?

What did he say to him? Did he go out of friendship? No! It was a political move, an intentional effort to do things which are not to the benefit of this country.

He is a political tsotsi.

If he tells me this evening that he went to seek the true cause of the riots and to solve this problem, then I shall believe him if he is honest. However, I know that the hon. member for Sea Point will not tell me that. That hon. member and his party are playing with fire. As a responsible person, I just want to warn him here this evening. I saw what he did in front of those steps when those young students were being given a hiding by our police. I too was there. He made himself scarce. He stood on the other side of the street. I am now just going to say “like a coward”, and I withdraw it immediately.

Mr. Chairman, the hon. member for Stilfontein began his speech on a very calm and quiet note … [Interjections] … but I must say that he ended up on quite a high note. Our Police Force is facing a very difficult time at present, I believe, in the area around the Witwatersrand and Pretoria. I would also, therefore, like other hon. members of this House, like to express my appreciation to the Police Force for the wonderful job they are doing under very difficult circumstances. I would also like to express my sympathies for those who have died on duty during this year. I believe that the police are doing a marvellous job, and I do not only mean now. They have been doing a wonderful job ever since the inception of that force. I shall come back, later in my speech, to certain points made here by the hon. member for Umlazi.

I want to deal with something which was said by the hon. member for Sandton. The hon. member for Sandton said that there were some people who saw the police as a symbol of oppression, and that the Police Force should embark on a programme to educate the people to understand them better. I appreciate this coming from the hon. member for Sandton. I should like to point out to him that perhaps the best place for the campaign to start would be in his party. [Interjections.] For many years we had the Progressive Party, which is now called the Progressive Reform Party …

That is not true.

For many years we had this party on my left protesting …

That is also not true.

… in this House and in the Press and on public platforms, without concern for what was going on in the minds of Black people as a result of what they were saying. To make my point I should like to quote from the Daily Dispatch of 18 June 1976. The headline of the passage I wish to refer to, reads: “Informers dealt with at Healdtown—witness.” I quote—

This is why I say that the campaign to make the police the friend of the public should start in that party. I say this because this is the sort of thing that is created in the minds of people. I could read further from this article, but there are other matters I wish to refer to.

In the first place I would like to support the hon. member for Umlazi in his plea that the Police Force should be removed from the restrictions of the Public Service Commission. So many of our men from the Police Force are leaving and joining the Railway Police, Traffic Police, etc., simply because these bodies are not controlled by the Public Service Commission. We passed legislation a year or two ago in this House to release the Water Research Commission from the control of the Public Service Commission and I believe that the time has come in South Africa today, when our police have to contend with all sorts of things such as they are contending with now, and when they have to contend with terrorism on our borders, that they should be divorced from the Public Service Commission and the restrictions which it places upon them. I have spoken to some of the youngsters who are doing their national service in the Police Force at the moment. They are exceptionally proud of what they are doing, and I believe that this method of national service could be expanded, because in this way we will be able to get more policemen of the type we would like to have.

Mr. Chairman, I want to speak about the border areas of South Africa. When I talk about the border areas of South Africa, I am talking particularly now about the Eastern border. There is a rugby team which plays in the Currie Cup which is known as Border. That is the East London-Peddie-Braunschweig-Frankfort-Grahamstown area. I believe that this whole area, and possibly other areas in our platteland as well, are underpoliced at the moment. I know the Grahamstown division is under-staffed. In answer to a question on Friday, 2 April, the hon. the Minister gave me the establishment of the Peddie police station as being 1 Warrant officer, 1 sergeant, 3 White constables, 2 Black sergeants and 6 non-Whites. When one looks at the population of Peddie, which at the last census in 1970 was 43 300 Blacks—which has no doubt doubled in the meantime—and when one sees the situation that is arising there with the resettlement of strange Bantu on Trust farms in the area and one finds that reprisals are in fact taking place when stock are found on farms and when problems arise, one realizes that many more police are needed in these areas. I should just like to quote from the Daily Dispatch of 10 June 1976 with reference to a meeting held at King William’s Town at which the hon. the Deputy Minister of Bantu Administration and I were present. It reads as follows—

They are unable to give it because there are not enough of them. I know this. I think the staff of those stations in that area should be increased. I believe they should be increased and there should be proper protection. It is no good talking to the Ciskeian Government. I can quote to the hon. the Minister a letter received by the Town Clerk of Peddie from the Secretary to the Chief Minister of the Ciskei and of Finance, in which he says the following—

I should just like to quote to the hon. the Minister a short extract from that. Item 2 is headed “The deterioration of White-Black relations in the Peddie area” and reads as follows—

This is from an official minute of the Secretary to the Chief Minister of the Ciskei. I believe it is necessary that the law should be seen to function there. I should like to mention a case to the hon. the Minister to show that the morale of the police that are there is broken through light sentences. They do arrest people when they can find them. There is the case where a house was destroyed a few weeks ago. The roof was taken off completely. Two men were found. They were arrested by the police. One was a first offender and the other a second offender. I mention this because I think it affects the morale of the police. These men were brought to trial and were found guilty of destroying two houses. The damage to the one house was estimated by an insurance assessor at R12 000. The first offender was given three months suspended. The second offender was sentenced five months of which three months were suspended. I believe that the policeman who handles such cases feels extremely bitter about it. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, after the drubbing hon. members have now administered to the hon. members of the PRP, I think that for the time being we can just leave them aside a little, otherwise they may develop a distorted idea of their own importance.

Like the hon. member for Middelland, I too had the opportunity recently of accompanying the police of one of the Peninsula police stations on their patrol service and following up of complaints for one evening and night. On that occasion I gained an insight into the working conditions and the problems of the police in the Cape Peninsula. I also gained an insight into the attitude with which they approach their task, a task which they often have to perform under the most difficult of circumstances.

The police station in question serves an area with about 12 000 White and about 100 000 Coloured inhabitants. Many of the Coloureds live there in squatter conditions, as a result of which the police perform their work with great difficulty. There are not always streets, and the sandy terrain restricts the mobility of the police. Furthermore, circumstances are such that many of the tarred roads in the area are closed at the moment, owing to the provision of public services. I mention these facts merely to serve as a background against which the difficult task performed there by the police must be seen.

However, I want to stress that I was impressed by the sound mutual attitude to be detected throughout between the police and the inhabitants of that area. I shall mention a few instances to support this impression. Now and again the patrol van got stuck in the sand. Immediately there were Coloureds who assisted, spontaneously and without being asked, to free the patrol van from the sand. When the police needed assistance in tracing addresses, time and again there were Coloureds who assisted them. I also had the opportunity of visiting two night clubs for Coloureds in that area in company with the commanding officer of the police station. [Interjections.] The spirit of mutual goodwill manifest there made a deep impression on me. In contrast to the impression given here this evening by the hon. member for Sandton, viz. that there are supposedly people who do not regard the police as their friends, there I found that in all cases the police were honoured and respected by all the inhabitants of that area. I regard this as an exceptional testimonial for the police, particularly in view of the exceptional circumstances prevailing which I have just tried to sketch.

Having said this, I must, however, also mention a less satisfactory fact. It is a fact that the police for that whole area with all its inhabitants, and despite the difficult circumstances, have only two patrol vans. Those two patrol vans have to serve the entire area. In fact, on the evening in question only one patrol van was available, manned by two White police officers. That evening the commanding officer of the police station had to do duty by motor car himself in an effort to deal with all the calls.

This brings me to the actual point of my argument, namely the numerical strength of the Police Force and the high percentage of police officers who buy their discharge from the service. At present there are 19 016 approved White posts on the establishment. To me it is an open question whether this is sufficient, but I do not want to go into that now. However, at present there is a shortage of 1 173 Whites, or 6,2% of the approved establishment. Of these vacancies, 750 are in fact filled at present by temporary members, but the fact remains that those posts are in fact vacant. If we look at the statistics, we find that over the past 10 years, an average of 7,5% of the White members of the Force have bought their discharge from the service. Last year 1 828 of the White members—almost 10%—bought their discharge, and since January this year no fewer than 1 103 White members of the Force have bought their discharge. It appears, too, that buying out is by far the most important reason for the discharge of White members of the Force, and it seems that this phenomenon is on the increase.

The manpower of the Force can only be expanded, or the manpower shortage reduced, if more members can be trained and placed in service and/or if the buying of discharges can be drastically reduced. The maximum number of members that can be trained by the South African Police College is 1 756 per annum, and an average of 1 700 members are trained every year. At R4 000 per annum per member, the training of the 1 828 members of the Force who bought their discharge last year cost the State about R7½ million. At the same time, these 1 828 members represented more than the annual training capacity of the Police College. In other words, during that year the Force suffered a net loss of manpower. It is therefore clear that the solution of the manpower shortage is not to be found in the training of more members, but only by combating the large-scale buying of discharges.

The question now arises as to what the reason is for this buying of discharges. If we look at the conditions of service of the police we find that they are exceptionally good. Hon. members who will speak after me will probably discuss these conditions of service in detail. The opportunities for promotion within the Force are also outstanding and in spite of what has been said in this House by hon. members of the PRP, the prestige and status of the Force is exceptionally high among the general public. The reason for the purchases of discharge cannot, therefore, be found there.

I cannot help gaining the impression that those members who ask to purchase their discharge do not have sufficient positive motivation for police service. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, over the past week I visited the University of Zululand. The university is situated within KwaZulu and belongs to the Zulu people. On Saturday I stood among the ashes and ruins of the buildings on the campus there. The once elegant administration building is in ruins. Everything has been destroyed, including expensive equipment, important academic records and irreplaceable documents recording the history and culture of the Zulu people. All this has been destroyed. The library has been partially destroyed. The catalogue system was burnt out entirely, books were heaped together and burnt, equipment was broken and various rooms destroyed by fire. The church which has just been completed, a fine building, was also partially burnt down. The lecture halls, too, bear testimony to the destruction. Apparatus was broken and efforts were made to bum the lecture halls. Motor vehicles were burnt out and houses were damaged. White people were assaulted, two of whom are still being treated in hospital.

There is no doubt whatsoever that it was only the timely and effective action of the police which prevented loss of life and which prevented all the buildings on the campus from being burnt down in their entirety. I want to repeat that it is only as a result of the timely and effective action of the Police Force which prevented a more serious disaster. I also want to mention that the White staff of the university acted courageously and contributed a great deal towards limiting the damage. As an example I want to mention the librarian, Mr. Theron, who was seriously assaulted while attempting to persuade the students not to bum the library.

All the evidence indicates that the evil deeds are the work of a group of students at the university. Whatever their motives, no one can condone this conduct. On the contrary. I believe that everyone of us in the House ought to condemn this conduct in the strongest terms. This was open treason against the Zulu people. I want to ask the hon. member for Sandton, the hon. members of his party, what excuse or explanation they can provide with regard to the meaningless destruction within KwaZulu itself. I want to ask them to tell us whether they condone that conduct. [Interjections.]

Order! Hon. members must give the hon. member an opportunity to complete his speech.

Due to the firm action on the part of the police, there is no unrest in that region at the present moment and calm prevails among the people in the area, because they know that the hon. the Minister is in earnest and that the police are in earnest as regards the maintenance of law and order, and they know that this will in fact take place.

Another matter to which I want to refer is that of housing for members of the police. As the hon. member for Mossel Bay indicated, quite a number of members are leaving the service and it is therefore necessary to look at all the advantages and the conditions of service of the Force. I went to take a look at the position as regards housing for police. I believe that we are in agreement that although there are still certain deficiencies, in past years good progress has been made in providing the police with housing. As you know, Mr. Chairman, as far back as in the sixties, the Government had decided, and agreed in principle, that the State could provide housing for police officers. Accordingly houses and flats were built and acquired by the Department of Community Development from time to time as funds for that purpose could be acquired by the department, and then made available to the police. These houses and flats are rented by the department to members of the Force at very reasonable economic rents and the allocation of these houses is effected on a point system, which takes into account, for example, the number of children and the number of dependants of the members of the Force and their income. The allocations are for a period of three years and every third year they are reviewed. A further method is to hire houses from the private sector and these, too, are made available to members of the Force on a point system. It is clear, therefore, that positive steps are being taken to meet the housing needs of members of the Force. At the moment there are 11 260 married members of the Force and of these, 4 854 are being assisted under one of these schemes in terms of which the State is providing them with accommodation. This means that at this stage, 43% of the married members of the Force have already been provided with accommodation by the State. This is the case on the platteland in particular where there are still bottlenecks, particularly those rural areas where rapid development is taking place. Housing there is very scarce, also for the private sector, and as a result it is even more difficult to acquire housing to give to members of the Force. It is perhaps to those points in particular that I want to draw the hon. the Minister’s attention so that he will give special attention to the rural areas where abnormal growth is taking place.

Order! I want to appeal to hon. members not to conduct a wide discussion on the events in the Bantu residential areas. They are not the responsibility of this Minister alone. The causes thereof are also a matter for the Department of Bantu Administration and Development. Only police action is relevant here.

Mr. Chairman, I thank you for your guidance. The hon. member for Eshowe has spoken in very measured terms about his experiences at the Zululand University over the weekend. He described with feeling the scene that he saw before him in terms of the destruction and the violence which had taken place there. We on these benches stated earlier today—my colleague the hon. member for Sandton has stated it today and I restate it again now—that we hold no brief for violence of any form. We call any form of violence counterproductive and we believe that we have to stand …

Show your colours, so that we can know where you stand.

Do you condemn the Wits demonstration?

This afternoon I stated as clearly as possible that we condemn as strongly as possible the arson, the looting, the havoc and the rioting which took place in Soweto.

But!

If the hon. member for Pretoria West had listened a little more carefully, he would not have come here with his “kragdadigheid”speech of tonight. That is not the answer to the problems that face South Africa. The answer is not to suggest to the hon. the Minister that he must move away from his declared policy—which I believe is absolutely right—of the minimum amount of violence necessary to maintain law and order. I believe that the hon. the Minister will resist that sort of call if the hon. member suggests that we move away from that policy and that the hon. the Minister will stand by the words he used earlier.

Do you know Beyers Naudé?

The hon. members on that side have suggested that the answer to our problems is to get rid of this party in this House. A number of people have suggested this. Let us assume for a moment that they were successful by whatever means.

What do you mean by that?

I do not know what I really mean by that, because I have not been told exactly what hon. members on that side of the House mean by so many of their threats and insinuations. Let us assume that happens. Then the problems that face South Africa will still be here. The hon. the Minister is amongst the first to know that because he has first-hand information and experience of what is taking place in South Africa.

The hon. members on that side of the House have also suggested that one of the ways to solve our problems is to get rid of the English-language Press. This is always a nice one to hit and to hit at very hard. Let us assume for a moment that we do away with the English-language Press as the hon. members would so much like to do. The problems that face South Africa and which face the hon. the Minister of Police will remain. We can go on cataloguing all the various remedies which have been suggested and not even begin to touch sides with the deep-seated problems in this country. I want to restate as clearly as I can the points made by the hon. member for Sandton—if only hon. members would listen—when he stated unequivocally the deep appreciation felt by hundreds and thousands of people throughout South Africa of all races, colours and language groups—also this party—for the work done by the South African Police. Hon. members must be living with their heads in the sand if they do not recognize a problem to which the hon. member for Sandton referred, namely the image of the police amongst certain groups of people in South Africa—and I do not only mean those who are the law-breakers—but communities of people, who do not always identify the policeman as the friendly man who walks the beat and who comes to his assistance. The reason for this, and the hon. the Minister of Police must surely know this as I cannot believe that he too has his head in the sand, as so many of his colleagues seem to have, is that that image is created because there is a group of hundreds and thousands of policemen in South Africa—Black, White Coloured—who have to implement a policy which is abhorrent to a great number of people in South Africa. There is no question of that. One can argue and bluster, but these are the facts. That is one of the gravest problems that the police have to face. I have a deep sympathy for them, because I do not believe that anyone in his right mind would want to implement some of the policies of this Government. They face, I believe, an almost impossible task. They have such a variety of responsibilities. One thinks of the urban violence and the growth of crime, not only in times of emergency that we have seen taking place in South Africa, in Soweto and elsewhere, during the last week.

Think for example of the answer given to the reason for growth in crime rate here in the Cape Peninsula. We were told by the hon. the Minister that there were 14 089 crimes of violence in 1975 in the Cape Peninsula alone. In reply to a question of the hon. member for Yeoville, we were told that the Hillbrow area, which encompasses the Yeoville constituency and several others, there were more than 2 000 serious crimes in 1975. This is the kind of work that the South African Police have to do. Only in the last weeks and months—and I have had conversations with the hon. the Minister about this in private—we have been reminded of case after case which has taken place in suburbs such as Pinelands, Rondebosch, Sea Point, Groote Schuur, Constantia and right here in the Cape Peninsula. The fact of the matter is that the police in its present strength simply cannot cope with the rising crime rate in our cities. This is a very real problem and I say that the police deserve the sympathy and the assistance of us all rather than this constant bickering. Over and against this they have the growing socio-economic problems, which is not the fault of the police. They have to see the end result of it, however, and try to deal with it. They have to cope with some of the growing problems flowing from unemployment. They have to cope with that as they are right in the front line. They also have to cope with right-wing terrorism. When I asked the hon. the Minister last year whether any point of solution had been reached with regard to any of the various crimes of violence perpetrated by so-called right-wing terrorists in our urban areas, the answer then was that they were continually being investigated, although many have been on the books for many years. I ask now again quite specifically about an incident which took place involving a tear-gas bomb attack on delegates attending a church synod meeting in the Thlabane church centre near Rustenburg in December 1975. One would like to know what the police are doing in that connection. One would also like to know about the threats made on the life and on the family of Mr. Donald Woods, of shots that were fired into his home, of slogans that were painted on his walls. Some of these are problems of the police as well. One would like to be assured by the hon. the Minister that these are also receiving the attention of the police.

Then there is the enormous rate of crime in townships. Right here in the Cape Peninsula, very recently, Nicro published a factual document on crime in the Cape Flats, which showed that people were living in the very fear of their lives. In this Vote, whether one is referring to Soweto, to the so-called plush suburbs of the Cape or anywhere else in this country, or whether one is talking about rural areas, what we want to say from these benches is that what we need is a massive manpower drive to try to meet the shortage which seems to exist at almost every point. We need better wages, better conditions and a better Government, too.

Mr. Chairman, in a certain sense we have heard an amazing thing tonight and that is that the hon. member for Pinelands, and even the hon. member for Sandton earlier on, paid flattering lip service to the South African Police. It is amazing because I can go to Hansard after Hansard and read to those hon. members what the hon. member for Houghton has said about the South African Police. The remarkable thing is that the hon. member for Houghton is not here, and throughout this entire debate, during the Justice debate and up to this point in this debate, whereas the PRP requested the half-hour adjournment rule in order to discuss a matter of urgent importance, the hon. leader of the PRP, the hon. member for Sea Point, has not yet risen to participate in this debate. I want to challenge that hon. member and ask him whether he is not able to participate in this debate when the hon. member for Houghton is not here. This is not a matter one can simply laugh off; the hon. member can always have an opportunity to participate in the debate. On the analogy of the speech by the hon. member for Pinelands, the hon. the Leader of the PRP must not also pay lip service to the police. We want to know what the standpoint and policy of the PRP is with respect to law and order. We want to have this spelled out, and now I want to put a few questions to the hon. leader. It is easy to stand up here and say that one condemns arson, etc., but those hon. members have not yet stood up and stated what the did in those areas where they have people who know about this matter. After all, they have the people who brought them the news that there was an explosion at hand there. However, what did they do apart from simply accusing the NP?

We warned you, but you did not want to listen.

It is pointless to stand up and shout now. I am not a barbarian and I am now talking to that hon. member in this House. I do not let myself be shouted at. That hon. leader must stand up and say whose side he is on. After all, they have mentioned how good the police are. I now state categorically that this is the first time in this House that those hon. members have stood up and praised the police as they have done tonight. Those hon. members would do well to look at the speeches by the hon. member for Houghton.

If they knew about the hotbed which was developing there, what did the hon. member for Sea Point do in their principal constituency, where the University of the Witwatersrand is situated, to see to it that the behaviour of those students was under control? If he knew about it, the hon. the Leader of the PRP must stand up and say what he did to meet the members of the Bantu Urban Advisory Board in Soweto and discuss these matters with them, because after all, he says that those people eat out of his hand. The hon. leader of the PRP must stand up and break his silence. He must say what he thinks about the order which was issued against a member of his party, Mrs. Braude, so that she will no longer concern herself with activities in Soweto. There is something else I want to ask the hon. leader of the PRP. Why has the hon. leader of the PRP not yet said a word about the orders issued against Mr. Beyers Naudé and Mr. Rees? We cannot let these things pass so easily. The hon. leader of the PRP does not want to enter this debate because he knows that he, as the responsible member in that party, will have to answer those questions.

And he is afraid.

It is of no avail to say in general terms that they condemn arson, etc. The argument of the hon. member for Pinelands is that they condemn it but that it is nevertheless the policy of the NP which caused certain things.

Quite true.

If the policy of this Government had been the policy of the Communist party, and if the present situation had arisen, would they still have blamed the policy of this Government?

A stupid question.

Do not tell me I am stupid; it is a very simple question. The hon. member for Sea Point may as well reply to it. To me there are two basic issues here. If there is a policy which has caused unrest, it does not matter whose policy it was. Their own policy could also cause unrest, but here we are dealing with two different matters. The fact remains that there is unrest, loss of life and arson. All these things are taking place, but what do we get from that hon. party? We must put a question to the hon. leader of the PRP. Did he and his right hand, the hon. member for Houghton, who know Soweto like the back of their hands, go to the hon. the Minister of Justice and say: “We have certain information?” Did they suggest what should be done? I want to take this point further. If it is the case, as those hon. members said, that Afrikaans was the problem in Soweto … Those hon. members are shaking their heads. Do they want to intimate that it is the only reason?

No.

Very well; I concede that to them.

Order! I have now requested hon. members on two occasions this evening not to discuss the causes of what happened, but to discuss matters which belong under this Vote.

Mr. Chairman, in any event, I want to put this question to those hon. members: If this was their point of departure, and disorder and arson and everything that involves, arose, did the hon. member for Sea Point pay any visit to Soweto and bring the leaders of Soweto together and ask them to put a stop to this? Did the hon. member for Sea Point bring the educational authorities in Soweto together, because after all they eat out of their hands now, and ask them to put a stop to this? [Interjections.] No, Sir. They sent the hon. member for Sandton there to see what was happening. When was the very first opportunity which the hon. member had to discuss the riots there? He did not participate in the snap debate. The very first opportunity he had to speak about them, was during this debate, under the Justice Vote. What did the hon. member do? He simply said that he would speak about the matter later on. He, who was the investigating officer for his party, was not prepared to stand up at the very first opportunity and state his party’s standpoint in this connection. I think that this House is entitled to ask the hon. the Leader of the PRP to rise during this debate and put his party’s standpoint frankly with respect to the maintenance of law and order in South Africa. He must do so without attaching any “buts” to it. He must simply and straightforwardly tell us what his party’s attitude is in respect of law and order. It does not matter which party is the Government of the day, or which policy applies in South Africa; law and order is a concept integral to democracy. The “rule of law” is something about which those hon. members may wax lyrical when it suits them, but when we ask them to adopt an unambiguous standpoint on law and order, I believe that we are entitled to have an answer from them.

Mr. Chairman, while the hon. the Leader of the PRP is deciding whether to reply to the challenge which has been issued to him and whether, in the words of the hon. member for Pinelands, he is going to continue “living with his head in the sand”, and since a number of injuries have been sustained tonight as well, for which injury time will possibly be awarded, I should like to express a few considered opinions about the medical scheme of the police.

As in any section of our society, it is essential for the members of the Police Force to be sure that when they retire, provision will be made for medical treatment and care. Any serving member of the Police Force is entitled to receive medical and hospital treatment, including medicines and dressings, at Government expense. The Commissioner can direct at any time that a member who is thought to be or who states that he is suffering from a disability, ill-health, a disease or an injury, may be admitted to a hospital or nursing home in order to undergo the necessary treatment.

Provision for members who have already retired and provision for members when they retire, is made in schemes which are known as the Medical Fund A and Medical Fund B. In respect of Medical Fund A the regulations provide that it comes into operation on 1 December 1965, in order to provide for the continuance of medical and hospital treatment for members who retired on pension on 1 January 1964, or who retired as a result of medical unfitness, as well as for their wives and dependent children. This also applies, of course, to widows and dependents of deceased members. This fund was established without financial aid from the State and even today, no financial aid is granted. The fund has therefore to continue with only the contributions of those members of the Force who are ipso facto members of this fund. The monthly membership fee is R2 per member. While they are serving they receive no benefits whatsoever from this Fund. Originally, retired members did not pay any monthly membership fees, and the fund functioned on membership fees of serving members only. It is right, too, that a retired member who relies solely on his pension should not have to incur this expenditure as well.

The rapid increase in the cost of medicines and medical services, however, made it necessary for the membership fee of serving members to be increased and for retired members to pay membership fees as well. These steps was necessary to save the fund from financial collapse. Hon. members will concede that it is an undesirable state of affairs that retired members also have to contribute. The fund’s only source of income is the monthly contribution of R2 per member and R1 per month for every dependant, up to a maximum of R6 per family. Due to the limited funds there are limits to benefits in terms of this scheme. The maximum sum paid for hospitalization, is now R7 per day. Hon. members know that hospital fees are generally very much higher than this.

The fund does not pay for dental treatment and items like glasses are also excluded. No travelling or accommodation costs are paid by the Fund. If the abovementioned benefits were to be included, it would mean that the membership fee would have to be drastically increased. In view of this situation, in November 1974 discussions were held with the Treasury with a view to obtaining a state subsidy for the fund, but that attempt failed. Membership fees had therefore to be increased and now a member has to pay one-fifth of the cost of the medicines and medical aids. With its present revenue, it is not within the power of the fund to extend benefits or drop limitations. The existing limitations are in respect of those very things which a retired member has a greater need for in his old age. During his earlier years of service he may perhaps never have been in hospital and did not need aids like dentures or glasses, but during his retirement these are the very needs which occur more frequently, but he cannot receive aid in this regard from the fund.

Another aspect to which I should like to refer is the fact that the fund provides that a member who leaves the Force on pension or due to medical unfitness within ten years after 30 November 1965, or ten years after his appointment, and who chooses or is allowed to retain the benefits of medical fund A, may deposit the difference between the whole amount which he would have paid in ten years and the amount which he did in fact pay up to the date of his retirement, in medical fund A within 90 days of retirement. In the same way, a widow or a member who died before he became a member of the medical fund is also allowed to become a member of that fund on the same basis.

Medical Fund B was instituted on 1 December 1970 in order to provide a similar service to members who retired before 1 January 1964. Originally the only source of income for fund B was the membership fees of retired members. Members who are still employed cannot be expected to subsidize this fund as well. As a result of the small inflow of funds, the fund was in financial difficulties within a year. For this reason the Minister of Finance was requested to grant a subsidy for the Fund, and this was done. The state subsidy covers 75% of the expenditure of the Fund. Members of the Medical Aid scheme B pay R3 per member monthly, R3 per spouse and R1 for every child. Furthermore, the benefits and obligations entailed by both funds are the same, except that in the case of medical fund B, members pay one-seventh of the cost of their medicines.

As in the case of medical fund A, it is also being argued here that it is unsatisfactory that some of the benefits which are most needed at an advanced age, are forfeited under the scheme. It is hoped that the hon. the Minister of Justice will be able to persuade the hon. the Minister of Finance at a later stage to extend a helping hand in order to eliminate the deficiencies in both of these medical aid schemes.

Mr. Chairman, I have a matter which I want to raise with the hon. the Minister, but before I do that, there is something else. Challenges have been flung about this hon. House this evening to members of the PRP. I merely want to ask them, and I think it is their duty to explain to the House their attitude towards the demonstrations held by students of the Witwatersrand University last week. One can have one’s own opinions. Whatever one can say about the attitude of Black people in Soweto, I can see no way in which one can possibly condone violence, mob action and the burning down of the very centres of the community. The action taken by students of the University of Zululand, I believe, is absolutely unspeakable. It is an extra-ordinary thing. It seems to be part and parcel of a mob psychology which is found all over the world. It happened at Berkeley, at Columbia University, at the Sorbonne, at the Berlin University and elsewhere. People seem to go for things like libraries, centres of information and the like; the very heart and soul of a university.

What the young students from the University of the Witwatersrand did, I believe, is irresponsible in the uttermost extreme, because whatever the feelings of Black people might be …

PRP supporting students tried to pursuade them not to take illegal action.

Please, let me finish my speech. Mr. Chairman, the hon. member can get up and make his own speech later. I can promise him the House will grant him 10 minutes for that.

I have no speaking time in this debate. [Interjections.]

Mr. Chairman, I feel that …

[Inaudible.] [Interjections.]

Order!

[Inaudible.]

Mr. Chairman, I feel that this is something which cannot be condemned strongly enough, and I invite the members of the PRP to do so. All I want them to do is to say that they condemn it, and I shall be quite happy. That is all they have to do. [Interjections.]

Why do you ignore what I said about PRP supporting students trying to stop the procession.

Order! The hon. member for Yeoville must please give the hon. member for Mooi River an opportunity of continuing with his speech.

Mr. Chairman, the problem which always arises with this kind of thing is that, where one gets activities like this in the streets …

We have condemned the illegal actions.

That has happened in every single case where riots and revolution have broken out. It is the interaction of student and worker, and that is the one thing that has to be avoided at all costs. Whatever one might feel about Black people taking the action that they did—which one can only condemn as far as I am concerned—the activities of those young White students of the Witwatersrand University were something, I believe, which were designed to fan the flames. [Interjections.]

Not all students. Only a small minority took part in the action.

Those flames were serious enough without the kind of action displayed by the students of the Witwatersrand University taking place.

I now want to raise a matter, which I have already raised with the hon. the Minister by means of a letter. This matter is connected with my constituency and regards the area of Underberg and its police reservists, as they call themselves. I want to point out that the area in which those people live, is a remote and isolated area. It is far removed from other centres and forms virtually an enclave surrounded by Bantu areas on almost all sides. It is a farming community on the border of Lesotho, an area where there is an acute shortage of full-time policemen.

For some 15 years now the farmers themselves have been operating a police reserve unit of unpaid volunteers. They have contributed immensely to the stability of that particular area, an area where stock theft and dagga running have been rife and where pirate taxis and all kinds of criminal practices are the order of the day.

Those volunteers in the police reserve unit have turned out an average of six to eight hours per month. The two officers, who have completed courses at the Police College in Pretoria, have offered themselves as unpaid volunteers rendering service of about 60 hours per month each, in the interest of the community. What I wish to draw to the hon. the Minister’s attention—I have written to him and I have received a reply, for which I thank him—is the question of arms. At the moment the position is that when those reservists go on duty, they are armed. They draw their arms from the police stations at Polela, Bulwer and elsewhere. Usually they are armed when doing their duties as reservists. When they return from their duties, their arms are kept in the depots and they have to return home unarmed. Recently a commando was raised throughout the whole of my constituency. The members of this commando are armed with new rifles, they have shooting practices, they take the rifles home with them and they are an armed force indeed. The hon. member for Middelland raised the question of terrorism and the combating of it. This unit that has been raised in our area is specifically designed to cope with that kind of activity. However, when one has an area like Underberg, where approximately 100 people are concerned with the police reserve unit, nobody is left over to join the commando. However, one or two odd people can manage to join neighbouring units and by doing this, they get rifles and ammunition to take home.

In every country in which terrorism has broken out, attacks have been made on the police stations because of the fact that there are stocks of arms kept there. It happened in Algeria, it happened in Kenya, it happened in Vietnam and wherever terrorists are active, it is the target of the activity, because they know they can get arms from those centres. Most of the people in my constituency are senior members of the community of whom many saw service in the last war. They are responsible people and are under very good discipline and they have an immense spirit for each other, an immense spirit of discipline and of concern for their district. In the case, of, for instance, an attack on the police post—anything like that can happen—how do these people come to the rescue of the people in the police post? With what can they be armed and what are they supposed to do? How can they rally to a group of people, the thinly staffed police who are protecting the only stock of arms in the area? A counter case can be made for saying that if arms are scattered on all the isolated farms, they can be picked off one by one. It is an argument that can be used, but I believe that an armed force in being, especially in an area like that, isolated and on the borders of a neighbouring country and which is cut off by areas which are going to be part of the independent KwaZulu before very long, could be the answer. I feel that these people have a very genuine case for asking the hon. the Minister that they should be allowed to retain their arms and to keep them at home. I want to reiterate the fact that these people are used to handling arms. These people are responsible farmers, many of them have seen active service and they are not the type of people who will leave their arms lying around where they can be picked up or pilfered, etc. It is largely a matter of pride in their unit and in themselves. Anybody can join a commando unit and many people who join commandos do not even have the experience or discipline under which these people have been operating for a considerable length of time, but despite this, rifles and ammunition are issued to them freely, they can practise shooting, etc. The hon. the Minister must understand that I am not raising this matter again because he did not give me a satisfactory answer, but because I believe there might be other members who have the same problems. I think the hon. the Minister would be very well advised indeed if he were able to accede to the request to allow these people to take their arms home and to be an armed force in being. I can see no point in having a stock of arms in one place with trained and willing men outside who cannot get to them if an attack should be made on that particular place.

Mr. Chairman, the speech of the hon. member for Mooi River tonight contained strong language in respect of his condemnation of the occurrences which took place over the past few days. I do not think there is anyone in the House who can find fault with the hon. member’s introductory remarks. What is more, I really believe that what he said in this connection, came from the depth of his heart. Not only do we understand it, but we also have a great deal of respect for the manner in which he did it. I also believe that the hon. the Minister will be prepared to lend a very sympathetic ear to the plea which the hon. member presented for his specific matter.

I should also like to say a few words about the police reservists. However, before coming to that, I first want to refer to another matter, a matter which the hon. member for Middelland already mentioned earlier tonight, and this is the opportunity which a group of us recently had on a Friday night of being the guests of Gen. Prinsloo and his men in Cape Town and going out with them to see what work the police do. Naturally in this way we obtained an idea of the variety of tasks they are occupied with. However, it was impossible for us to be able to form an idea of the total extent of their work within the space of a few hours. What struck us particularly that night, is the motivation with which they go about their work, the competency with which they carry it out as well as the humanity which they show under the most difficult of circumstances. Because this is the case, I should like to add my thanks tonight to that which have already been expressed during the course of this debate towards the police for the manner in which they serve South Africa and its people. To Gen. Prinsloo in particular and to the officers who were concerned in the matter on this occasion, we should like to say thank you very much for the friendly manner in which we were received and treated.

I should also like to express a few thoughts about the reserve police force, the police reservists as they are generally known. As far back as in the 1973 annual report we read that—

According to the information I have there are at present 17 246 people involved in this service.

The Whites who are actively involved among the A group, to which I shall refer in a moment, amount to 5 739 and the inactives, to 2 273. The latter group consists of reservists who have to assist the police in the performing of ordinary police duties, for example charge office services, the manning of police vehicles, patrol services, the guarding of vulnerable points or any other essential police duties when they are called up by the Commissioner of Police for full-time duty in times of emergency. At other times, just like the other group, they will assist in combating crime without financial award. There are 6 164 in the B group. They are the people who are prepared to provide two-hour shifts daily in their own residential areas in times of need without remuneration. A third group consists of 2 216 men. They are employees of local authorities, petrol companies, etc., who guard vulnerable points of their own employers. This includes factories, industries, electric power installations, water supplies and other essential strategic services, i.e. places and points which are considered vulnerable. There are 309 members in the D group. They are reservists who have to assist the police in combating riots which may break out in the rural areas. The non-White reservists—Coloureds and Indians—are divided up among the Whites like the first-mentioned two groups and are used in that capacity.

There is one matter which can be emphasized beyond any doubt, and that is that the police reservists have an extremely valuable and productive service to provide. There can be no doubt about this. I have already given an indication of the kind of work they perform. I do not think it is inappropriate for me to express very high appreciation to these men, on behalf of both the public and hon. members here, and not only to those men who offer their services voluntarily, but also to their families who are prepared to do without them while they provide this service for their fellow-man to the communities in the various parts of the country. I do not think that their services are always evaluated and appreciated as they ought to be. I should like to assure them tonight that their contribution is highly appreciated. To their families too, and to the families of the policemen who are full-time officers, I want to say that we have a great appreciation for the sacrifices which they make as families in parting with their loved ones so that they may provide their services under very difficult circumstances.

As far as the reservists are concerned, I should like to draw the hon. the Minister’s attention to a letter which appeared in one of the evening newspapers tonight and in which someone asked whether it could not be considered lowering the age for joining the police reservists. I understand that at the moment it is 21 years. The request in the letter is that the age should be lowered to 18 years for obvious reasons. One of the reasons the person advances, is that our young men are being used to carry out border duties at the moment, duties which they are carrying out excellently. There are local young men whose circumstances are of such a nature that they can be incorporated into this service, in order to make their contribution too. Their services can be utilized very beneficially, particularly in the difficult times in which we are living. I want to ask the hon. the Minister under the circumstances whether he would not consider lowering the age so that these young men could also have the opportunity of offering their services voluntarily.

Mr. Chairman, in the few minutes at my disposal, I should like to associate myself with what has been said in this House this evening with regard to the action of the S.A. Police over the past few days. Any South African—White citizen, immigrant, Black, Coloured or Yellow—who does not want to associate himself with the action of the police outside, does not belong in South Africa. Such a person has become a burden to South Africa. The hon. member for Sandton referred to the students of the University of the Witwatersrand. I want to tell hon. members that, although it is amazing, there are also many good students studying at the University of the Witwatersrand. Today I telephoned several of the students whom I know and whom I know stand completely for South Africa and asked them what their attitude was to the riots. They replied that the unrest at the University of the Witwatersrand had been caused by liberal elements moving about on the campus. The sooner the S.A. Police take these few students in hand and take them back to the lecture rooms so that they may continue their studies, the better it will be for their university and for themselves.

This evening I should like to confine myself to the question of arresting people who do not have identity documents for the purpose of influx control. I am convinced that had the occurrences at Soweto not taken place, this matter would definitely have been raised in this House by the PRP this evening. On consulting the Hansard reports of earlier years, one sees that this matter was raised time and time again. When one looks at the newspapers of past years, one finds stereotyped headings such as the following—

Mr. Chairman, each policeman has a discretion, and I want to give the assurance that every policeman exercises that discretion in the performance of his duties. With reference to the report I have just read out and to the words uttered in this House in past years, I want to say that we have become accustomed to seeing certain reports concerning our police in the newspapers, for example—

Who are the people who actually commit these crimes? Who are the actual criminals? When we speak to the police who are serving South Africa, they tell us that most crimes are committed by Bantu who are in the urban areas illegally. I said that each policeman has a discretion to exercise. The policeman outside is not simply left to his own devices; he also receives guidance from above. I have in my hand a circular dated 29 September 1975. It is addressed to all divisional commissioners in the Republic and South West Africa with the express request that the contents of the letter be explained to all members of the Force under their command, especially to the non-Whites and the younger, inexperienced members. This illustrates what guidance these people are given. Recently there was a very important court case concerning this matter. It was the case of Ncuba and the Minister of Justice as the appellant and the Bantu man Zikala as the respondent. That case is clearly explained to members of the Force in this circular; the content and meaning of the case is explained to them. It gives them an explanation of what constitutes a reasonable opportunity as something of this kind cannot really be defined. The facts and circumstances of every case will determine what constitutes a reasonable opportunity. It is clear that arrests are entirely at the discretion of the officer. In conclusion the circular points out that this decision of the Appeal Court reconfirmed repeated instructions and directions which had been issued from time to time with regard to Bantu control measures. This is an important and very delicate matter, and therefore the impression is not to be created here that a policeman outside arrests every Bantu without a reference at will. The police do exercise their discretion and the Bantu is given the opportunity to prove that he does have a reference book. He is not required to have his reference book on his person. Where this does not exceed reasonable bounds he is given an opportunity to go and fetch his reference book and to prove to the South African Police that he is entitled to be in an urban area. It is important to put an end once and for all to the crime waves experienced in urban areas. Hon. members may ask me why the legislation is necessary. Why is it so essential to apply the legislation? Apart from the reason I have already advanced, the legislation is important for the protection of the Bantu who are in certain areas legally and for the prevention of crime.

If one looks at what happens in practice one finds that thousands of Bantu stream into the urban areas without their having any refuge. It is logical to draw the conclusion that these Bantu must also live and eat. Unfortunately, the position is, however, that employers employ these people illegally, even at smaller salaries. This deprives the Bantu who are in an area legally of their jobs and the community is saddled with the problems which result from unemployment. Unfortunately many employers prefer to employ the Bantu who are in the urban areas illegally and not to have them registered as legal Bantu employees in order to take advantage of the situation and for the purpose of his own financial gain. Many Bantu who are in an urban area illegally do not succeed in obtaining employment; their only way of making a living is to turn to crime, like theft, housebreaking, robbery, rape, etc. These crimes are committed not only against the Whites, but even against their own people. Consequently crimes of all types are committed in their own areas. Requests are received daily, even from the non-Whites in those areas, for the police to take action against these infiltrators and to ensure that they, the Bantu, are also protected against these criminals who infiltrate the urban areas and create problems for the whole community. The application of this provision, is the only method of determining whether the presence of a Bantu in a particular area is legal, and it is of vital importance as regards the protection of the Bantu whose presence in the particular area is legal, and to the whole community. The question arises of what is to be done with layabouts who do not have reference books or any authorization to live in an urban area, if influx control is not to be applied. The police are accused virtually every day of not doing enough to remove layabouts and illegal occupants from certain residential areas, and the increase in the crime rate is attributed to this. When large-scale crime prevention patrols are in fact launched, the police are accused the following day in the Press and in this House, too, of arresting Bantu on a large scale and of being the so-called “indoctrinators”. However, we cannot allow such accusations to pass unchallenged because we must have high regard for our police who act in this way. These people work under difficult circumstances. It is difficult to trace a person in an area if he does not have any record. I want to assure the hon. House that no “indiscriminate action” or large-scale unnecessary arrests take place. No, the police do their work properly.

Fine things have been said about the police this evening. We must have great appreciation for the dangerous work which the police often do. They do it in order to protect us, the ordinary citizens, and we must realize that they work under difficult circumstances, even under circumstances of provocation. I should like to see everyone in the country—White, Brown and Black—regarding a uniformed policeman as their friend, everyone, except the criminal and subverter. [Time expired.]

Business interrupted in accordance with Standing Order No. 22.

House Resumed:

Progress reported and leave granted to sit again.