Mr. Speaker, we have an Opposition that promised the Railwayman an increase of R257 million. While the Government had granted salary increases to an amount of R225 million, they promised R257 million without any tariff increases. And then the hon. member for Yeoville stood up and said that I was going to increase tariffs even further after the election. These increased tariffs are effective, as from 1 April. If we had wanted to be dishonest, we could have delayed the tariff increases until just after the election, but we were honest and announced the increases immediately. I can tell the farmers that there will be no further tariff increases within the next 12 months. This is a single increase, so that certain tariffs could be adjusted.

You are saying that only to the farmers?

I shall refer to the others as well. The hon. member called me a socialist, and “Mr. Inflation”.

Minister of Inflation.

Be that as it may, he called me a lot of names and insinuated among other things that I was not going to be honest, because according to him I would announce further tariff increases directly after the election.

I know this Government.

The Opposition went on to say: “The Government has pushed the Black people out of the towns by their apartheid policy, and that is the reason why we have to have rail tariff increases”. I wish to repeat what I said in my budget speech. In the ’sixties I was in London, and slept in the home of the former manager of Koo International—Langeberg, as it was known at the time. It was 32 km from Piccadilly Circus and Ipswhich. In South Africa we have the Witwatersrand complex, with Black cities such as Kwathema, Soweto and Daveyton, and the Government has set itself the task of creating order in all these residential areas. The hon. member must remember that during the election campaign we are going to tell the voters what the Opposition stands for, viz. throwing open the doors so that the various population groups can live wherever they like. What they stand for is a conglomerate of all kinds, under circumstances in which murder and homicide will be rampant, because friction will undoubtedly arise. The Government on the other hand realizes that we must create industrial growth points which will ensure employment opportunities, and in that way the smaller population groups will be protected.

For 1980-’81 the hon. the Minister of Finance is going to grant more than R300 million as a transport subsidy to the workers of the country. The Railways will receive R241 million of that amount, and the subsidy for bus transportation amounts to more than R100 million. Consequently the user of the train services is contributing only about 29% of the costs during 1980-’81—the fare increases are not included in this. From Mitchell’s Plain to Cape Town a non-White travels 32 km, and whereas he previously paid R1,43 for a third-class weekly ticket, he will now have to pay R1,55. Compare these figures with those of any other country in the world. They are incomparable. Is it unreasonable to ask a person to pay R1,55 for a weekly ticket which allows him to travel a distance of 32 km both ways every day? In the meantime he is also receiving a salary increase.

Hon. members opposite delivered a long diatribe on the presumption that I had allegedly taxed agriculture and had left my fellow-farmers in the lurch. I expect this year’s maize crop to be two million tons more than last year’s. When we talk about tariff increases, we consider all the implications. A maize crop of two million tons more than in the previous year means, at the previous price of R120 per ton, an extra R240 million for the producers. To convey a ton of mealies from Bethal to the East London station previously cost R20,70. That is to say, one million tons of maize cost R20,7 million to convey, and now this is being increased to R24 million. Consequently the South African producer is going to pay an additional R6,6 million for the conveyance of an additional 2 million tons of maize, but in reality he is receiving R240 million more for it.

And the consumer?

I am still coming to the consumer. I stated explicitly that the South African farmer would understand if I said that the meat price had increased by an average of 70% over a period of 12 months. The price was hopelessly too low. I admit it. I worked hard for a higher meat price.

Right.

Now I can tell the farmer that he can breathe again, and can also live the way people in Yeoville do.

The people of Yeoville are being exploited.

However, I am telling the same producer that he has to pay a little extra to convey his cattle over a distance of 472 km. It will, I am telling him, cost just on half a cent per kilogram more. Is that unreasonable? Must those hon. members therefore carry on the way they do and say I am the greatest socialist alive because I want to regiment things by means of control boards and so on? Yesterday I said that the hon. member could, if he wanted to, take over all passenger transportation. [Interjections.] The hon. member talks about “free enterprise”. What did we, the Railways, do? We lifted road transportation restrictions. We told the South African farmer that he could convey his goods with his own truck or get contractors to do so. Of the 6 million sheep that are being slaughtered this year, only two million are going to be conveyed by train. Only sheep that are conveyed over long distances are going to be conveyed by train. If the national transportation organization, which is allegedly a vast monopoly, is really making life so difficult for the farmers, what are they themselves doing? Let us take the example of Mr. Bertie van Zyl, the biggest tomato farmer in Africa. He produces two million boxes of tomatoes at Moeketsi and he carts them to Johannesburg in trucks. However, if he has to convey tomatoes to Cape Town, he makes use of the train service. Ours is a free economy. There is no question of a monopoly. If he wants to, he can convey the tomatoes to Cape Town in his own trucks. Consequently the hon. member’s arguments do not hold water. This is all pre-election propaganda. I am part of a party and a Government which is honest and which has increased the tariffs before an election. This side of the House will convey my message to the farmers, the consumers, the workers and the Railwayman, who are laughing up their sleeves at the Opposition and who say they are proud of their transport organization. But what does the Opposition say? The Opposition says they would have granted salary increases to an amount of R257 million, without any tariff increases. Then we can kiss our future and our pension schemes goodbye! We cannot trust that little lot over there.

Swindlers!

Order! The hon. the Minister must withdraw that.

I withdraw it, Sir.

In any event, they are Boer haters.

Yes, you can say that again.

You are Boer swindlers (boereverneukers).

Order! The hon. member must withdraw that.

I withdraw it, Sir.

Let us consider the accusations which are being levelled at this side. I do not want to quarrel with those hon. members and I am not playing a political game either. It is not in my nature. [Interjections.] However, are we not proud of such an organization as the S.A. Airways? The hon. member for Orange Grove made a statement, and I read the headlines which followed in the Rand Daily Mail. I am not angry at the Rand Daily Mail. They were merely quoting that hon. member.

You are not allowed to quote that.

The caption read: “600 tons of rotten grapes the result of State’s transport monopoly”. When he said here that 600 tons of grapes had been allowed to rot because the S.A. Airways, with its monopoly, could not transport the grapes, I asked myself where that particular farmer was and why he had not contacted me, because what farmer can afford to suffer damages amounting to R120 000? I have a powerful organization at my disposal to collect information for me. That organization set everything in motion throughout the country to ascertain the truth. Sir, the statement was a blatant lie. There was not one ton of grapes which was allowed to rot. [Interjections.] That story was bruited abroad about an organization which does not belong to the NP or the Government, but to the entire nation. That organization is being disparaged in this way. I am asking that hon. member to come and tell me where that 600 tons of grapes was allowed to rot. Who was the producer and who despatched the consignment? [Interjections.]

Order! Did the hon. the Minister say that the hon. member for Orange Grove told a blatant lie?

The information which the hon. member had, was a blatant lie.

Order! Cannot the hon. the Minister use another word? [Interjections.]

It is an untruth. I do not want to get into your bad books, Mr. Speaker. After all you have treated me very well since I came here. [Interjections.]

†The hon. member for Amanzimtoti said that the department’s cartage services were being operated at a considerable loss. In this regard he referred especially to City Deep.

*The hon. member also spoke about productivity. I now wish to show hon. members an advertisement which appeared in an Opposition newspaper yesterday. It read: “City Deep: Where the sun never sets and night owls now benefit even more.” The advertisement showed a photograph of the container depot at City Deep and went on to state—

Sir, we wish so much to increase our productivity that we are going to allow people to accept deliveries throughout the night so that there will be no congestion. I am merely mentioning this as an example of what efforts are being made to achieve greater productivity. However, I want to tell the hon. member for Amanzimtoti that he made a very good speech.

Mr. Speaker, may I ask the hon. the Minister whether City Deep is making a profit?

We envisage making a profit this year if we can handle containers 24 hours a day.

[Inaudible.]

There are a few more things I want to say to the hon. member for Yeoville, but I shall deal with him later.

†Sir, the hon. member also referred to Sir Freddie Laker’s operations in England. Does the hon. member realize that if he goes overseas and wants to travel in one of Sir Freddie Laker’s aeroplanes he has to sit in the aeroplane until it is 80% full. Passengers are not given anything to eat on his aeroplanes. Yet the hon. member wants to compare Sir Freddie Laker’s aeroplanes to South African Airways. He also said that South African Airways was the reason why not enough tourists were coming to South Africa. But the South African Airways cannot be blamed for lack of tourists: Private enterprise should be blamed for that. There is not enough hotel accommodation, and that is the main reason why we are experiencing problems as far as tourism is concerned.

*The hon. Opposition is constantly calling upon us to encourage private enterprise. The S.A. Airways can fly out anyone who wants to come, but then the tourists ask: “Where must we sleep tonight?” Should the South African Airways begin to build hotels? If that were to happen, the Opposition would accuse us of creating a monopoly. It is easy to shout at me and say that it is a monopoly, but it is a matter of pride to us. I am not berating the hon. Opposition for criticizing me, but I must be given a chance to reply to them. That is why I am explaining to them what the problem is today.

The hon. member for Orange Grove told a long story here about the building to the value of R57 million which is under construction in Johannesburg. But I can explain the problem to him.

†The existing computer facilities have become inadequate and it is also essential for these facilities to be housed in the same building. The Railways Administration is presently paying R2,9 million per annum for office accommodation in Johannesburg.

That is cheap in relation to R57 million.

Yes, but this rental will later become R3 million and R4 million and will escalate continuously. But then the hon. member says: “We must have computer facilities”. The major factor in regard to this building, the cost factor, can be explained by the fact that the computer centre is to be built underground for security reasons.

*This centre is to be built underground for security reasons, and that is why it is costing so much more. If we do not build the centre underground and it is perhaps blown up, the hon. member will not deal gently with me—I may not say that he will have my guts for garters. But then the hon. member rises to his feet and says: “You are overspending”.

†He stands here gabbling away for five minutes because there is no bar on Cape Town station. But to have bar facilities we must have money. We will have to have another complex to house the drinkers from Orange Grove. It will necessitate additional capacity. However, money had to be made available for important improvements to transport infra-structures and funds will not be available for this bar before the 1983-1984 financial year.

Are you saying your predecessor told us a story?

We have enough other priorities we have to give attention to and which must be given priority over bars for the hon. member. On the other hand we are taken to task for overspending.

The hon. member went on to say that the private diningroom at Cape Town Station was used for packing certain overseas foodstuffs. That concerns a private restaurant not used by the public. It was used over weekends to pack certain foodstuffs for certain overseas flights. However, nobody was not served and nobody was sent away from the restaurant. It is a private restaurant for special occasions. Not one of the hon. member for Orange Grove’s arguments have been valid.

Then the hon. member made a good suggestion which we will carry out. He said that on the Nelspruit-Hoedspruit-Pietersburg passenger train provision should be made for catering facilities. We shall go into this and have these facilities provided, especially for non-Whites on that train.

*The hon. member for Orange Grove said that we should, in view of what happened at Laingsburg, make provision for an alternative route to Cape Town. According to the experts it happens once in a thousand years that one has the kind of floods and disaster which struck Laingsburg. I hope it is something that occurs only once in a thousand years. I hope it is something that appears only once in 2 000 years. However, we are looking into his proposal to find an alternative route which will link up with the Sishen/Saldanha railway line. After the flood disaster the hon. member for Kuruman told me repeatedly that this would now afford us an opportunity to make provision for using the Sishen/Saldanha railway line in similar emergencies. We shall go into this matter in future.

The hon. member for Durban Central, and the hon. members on this side of the House, asked questions concerning widows’ pensions and the pre-1973 pensioners. In order to accommodate the pre-1973 pensioners they were granted special additional increases on two occasions, viz. in 1976 and again in 1979. As I indicated in my budget speech, these additional increases for ordinary pensioners and for the widows of pensioners amount to 21% and 32% respectively. The backlog which the pre-1973 pensioners had has already received the necessary attention and has been rectified. But one cannot expect that those who made smaller contributions prior to 1973 should receive precisely the same compensation as those people who made larger contributions after 1973. I shall have talks with the unions about this. I do not want—I would prefer to say this after the election—a widow, or a pensioner of the Railways who devoted his life to this wonderful organization, to suffer any privations. If there are any cases of people who suffer any privations, we shall look into such cases very sympathetically.

The hon. member for Amanzimtoti asked a question about the bridges over the Umkomaas River. There is a question on this on the Question Paper and I shall write the hon. member a letter in connection with this. In actual fact this does not fall under Railways, but under Transport Affairs. The hon. member put another question to me as well. Sir, cannot I reply to all these questions of the hon. members in the form of letters? The House adjourns tomorrow. Must I reply to all of them now? I am asking for your guidance, Sir.

Unfortunately there is nothing about this in the rules of the House.

The hon. member for Amanzimtoti asked a question about the productivity campaign of the Railways. In my budget speech I indicated that the productivity index of the Railways, with all production factors taken into account, showed an average annual increase of 3,2%. This is since 1971-’72. According to the data of the National Productivity Institute productivity in the manufacturing and construction industries decreased since 1970 by 1% and 2% per annum respectively. This gives an indication of the extent to which the Railways has been successful in the effective utilization of its means of production. The Railways is now under “new management”. Next year, therefore, we shall see even better results.

†The hon. member for Amanzimtoti hurt us when he referred to the “bad treatment” by overseas S.A. Airways staff. SAA operates sales and reservations offices on a world-wide basis, and reports received have always been to the effect that the service provided has been on the highest level. In this respect S.A. Airways has built a proud record. It is possible that there is an occasional lapse as a result of the human element, and if the hon. member can mention specific incidents, attention will be given to such cases immediately. I must, however, add something which is very important. Those citizens employed by S.A. Airways in their own countries have been very loyal to S.A. Airways, and thus also loyal to South Africa. This has been the case notwithstanding attacks on SAA offices, for example at Paris, Amsterdam, Zurich and New York. I say thank you to these officials. I might also refer to recent strikes at overseas airports, when the local S.A. Airways staff jumped to handle passengers’ baggage to get the flights away. All the others went on strike but our people overseas helped the passengers.

The hon. member for Orange Grove said that the Railway tariff increases were ahead of inflation. In order to compare the Railways’ record of tariff increases with the rate of inflation, one should take a long-term view of the situation. With 1950 as basis year the Railways’ average tariff increase on rail transport was 352%, whilst the consumer price index rose by 495%, in other words, 143 percentage points more than that of the Railways. With 1970 as basis, the Railways’ index rose by 195%, whilst the consumer index rose by 207%.

*The hon. member for Durban Central referred to representations for the advance acceptance of baggage at Jan Smuts Airport. There is no problem in accepting baggage in advance of passengers arriving at Jan Smuts Airport to catch a connecting flight. If the time lapse before the connecting flight is less than 30 minutes for internal flights and 60 minutes for international flights, however, it is not practicable to process passengers with baggage for such connections.

Even when the interval between the flights is longer than an hour, they still do not wish to accept baggage that has been sent in advance.

We shall go into this. According to my information they are in fact doing this.

The hon. member for Durban Central also referred to the purported finality reached on the Berea Road-Cato Creek train service. As a result of opposition from the Durban executive committee the matter is being investigated by the Metropolitan Transport Advisory Board, in terms of the Urban Transport Act. The city council has to accept a great deal of the blame for the problems which are being experienced. I shall reply in full to this whole matter. I may just say that many facts have been communicated to me concerning Durban station and the problems there. I am going to pay a personal visit to Durban station, and after the election I shall invite the hon. member—if he is reelected—to accompany me when I look into these matters.

The hon. member for Green Point referred to the problems being experienced with bookings making air travel by telephone. The hon. member is not present at the moment, and I shall therefore send him my reply.

He did ask to be excused.

There are problems, but we have solved most of them. However, I shall give the hon. member a full reply on this matter.

The hon. member also referred to crime on stations. To view these figures in their correct perspective, it must be mentioned that during the period which he mentioned, there were 165 million train journeys in the Cape peri-urban areas. There was only one reported crime every 120 000 journeys. The Railways is concerned about the safety of its passengers, and a committee was appointed last year to consider this whole matter mentioned by the hon. member.

The hon. members for Musgrave and Parktown discussed the Railway Sick Fund, and discussed the matter with me in private. This entire matter must be considered by the Federal Council of Trade Unions, Regional Boards and the Central Sick Fund Board. I shall go into their proposals and ask the Management to go into this entire matter again.

The hon. member for Musgrave alleged further that the maintenance of the S.A. Airways was not very satisfactory. He also referred to delays.

†In 1980 the technical delays per 100 departures in the case of Boeing 747s came to 3,4, compared with an international rate of 3,3. The hail damage, however, affected us very detrimentally during this period. A full third of our fleet was damaged by hail.

*The hon. member for Yeoville said that we should have enough spare parts. We have enough spare parts, but if one-third of one’s fleet is damaged by a great disaster, a freak hail storm, something quite unprecedented, in which the fuselages of the aircraft were dented, are we to purchase a spare fuselage for each aircraft? An airways cannot keep extra wings, extra fuselages, the whole works, in reserve. We hope to import these components from Seattle. It is a good point to say that we should have enough spare parts, but when the hon. member arrives at Jan Smuts Airport again, he should take a look at the hangers where the aircraft are going to be housed in future. Consequently we have learned a lesson from this terrible hail storm which struck us.

†Many hon. members called for restraint on capital expenditure. Each one said we must stop spending on capital undertakings. We cannot do it. In the meantime an hon. member asks for more facilities at Durban. We are busy spending money there at the moment, and the hon. member can see for himself that we are busy at La Mercy. The hon. member also referred to departure times. The departure times of both S.A. Airways and British Airways services to London have been arranged at off-peak hours to ensure maximum comfort for passengers, thereby obviating the congestion in having four or five big Boeings leaving at the same time. We do not have the facilities at the moment.

*We built our airports incorrectly. It is easy for me to criticize after the event, but the new Jan Smuts Airport which we are going to build is going to have a tunnel through which passengers will board the aircraft. Hon. members asked why people cannot buy their tickets, as is customary overseas, and wait in the aircraft for the flight to depart. In this case people have to board a bus and drive out to the aircraft. Surely it is stupid to have someone board a bus first and then convey him to the other side of the airport. This does not happen in other vast airports such as we are envisaging at Jan Smuts, Durban and D.F. Malan. An air transport explosion has taken place. Our airports were not prepared for this. There is something else I should also like to say in this connection, and I hope I am not going to run into any flak. I wish to bring this point to the attention of the Minister of Community Development and State Auxiliary Services. I arrived at Jan Smuts Airport and wanted to know what this incredible mosaic thing hanging on the wall was all about. They must write me a letter and tell me what this business costing R100 000 is supposed to represent. I am not an artist, but I do wish to see whether it is tree or not. They could have hung that thing upside down. Perhaps it would have looked better that way. In contrast one can look at the Piemeef reproductions on the Blue Train. Those are beautiful works of art which advertise one’s country, and which anyone can see is South African art. We have Frans Oerders and Maggie Loubsers and other artists. We cannot use airports for people to experiment with paint brushes.

The hon. member for Bellville is the new secretary of the group—a fire-brand. I shall get along very well with him. He made a very interesting speech here and also put a few questions to me.

Mr. Speaker, may I ask the hon. the Minister whether S.A. Airways will have a say in the planning of new airways buildings at airports? I am referring to S.A. Airways and not to the Department of Transport now.

That is a very intelligent question. The people who have to use the building must have a say, and they do have a say. They are on the committee. However, I shall pay special attention to this matter. As I have said, we made mistakes in the past. We did not realize that we would be faced with this explosion in air transport. We made mistakes that anybody can see at Jan Smuts Airport. We do not want to repeat these mistakes at La Mercy and other airports.

*The hon. member for Bellville discussed the matter of increasing the Railways’ share of the market. The key to this does not lie in legislation, but in successful marketing of its services and in the fact that goods tariffs should be more cost-orientated. The marketing division of the Railways has been expanded considerably over the past two years, and the marketing officials have been trained to provide guidance and assistance to clients over a broad front. Within the next decade the Railways will bring its goods tariffs up to a level which will fluctuate between 85% below and 120% above the cost level. To be able to do this, the tariffs for uneconomic traffic will have to be raised, and the tariffs on high rated traffic reduced. The hon. member for Bellville then put a question to me in connection with railway concessions for family journeys. We are already giving a rebate for children. Children under the age of seven travel free of charge on main line trains. Children under the age of 12 travel for half-price. The new “40-off card” is something which is going to be very popular. According to the advertisement I have in my hand here, it is presented as follows—

They are referring to Helen.

[Inaudible.]

This 40-off card is available at all S.A. Railways ticket offices. I want to put it to the hon. member for Bellville that if this 40-off card is a success, we shall also consider introducing a family card for family journeys so as to encourage people to take their families on holiday by train, instead of by car. After all, the train is far more comfortable and it is safer.

The hon. member for Vryheid told us here about the wonderful railway line, along which I also travelled on the handcar as far as Richards Bay to orient myself. That day I saw how 25 million tons of coal were loaded on to a ship at the end of that line. The captain of that foreign ship himself said that it was the most modern offloading facilities he had ever seen. Every second of the 365 days of the year, one ton of coal is offloaded there. Is that not fantastic? And then the hon. member for Vryheid added that he was aware that we were going to increase that tonnage of coal from 25 million to 44 million by 1986. Those trains run through the hon. member’s constituency. In any case, it is something to be proud of. I thank the hon. member for singing the praises of the Railways as he did here. The hon. member went on to ask for the establishment of a section office at Vryheid. We are investigating the whole matter.

The hon. member for Langlaagte is a person with whom I would gladly go to war. I am not talking about pills now (pille). [Interjections.] Nor am I talking about glasses (brille). The hon. member for Langlaagte inquired about housing loans. Unmarried and married women employed on the Railways, including those whose husbands are not Railway employees, may, under certain conditions, qualify for loans under the Railways Housing Scheme. The conditions in question are only applied with a view to the safeguarding of capital. If a woman works for the Railways, she can get a loan. However, whether she is married on antenuptial contract or in community of property, are factors which are included in these conditions. It is unfair to expect that only a male may obtain a housing loan. I was told about women who had in fact obtained loans from the Railways. The hon. member went on to ask me about free pass facilities for divorcees in certain cases. I shall reply in writing to the hon. member furnishing all the details.

The hon. member for Kempton Park said a very important thing here. He was referring to conditions at airports in the Far East and said that one would, if one spilt coffee on a table there, take one’s serviette and mop it up, and then deposit the serviette in a waste container. When one leaves the airport, it is still neat and clean. We shall have to launch a campaign to teach our people, too, to be neat. One Sunday night I arrived at one of our airports after everyone had left. That airport—with all due respect— looks like a pigsty. People read their newspapers and just leave them lying there. We must teach our people to be neat. The hon. member also spoke about people who board an aircraft with hand baggage which looks like a woolsack. I shall send him a written reply. The hon. member then went on to refer to the gold class scheme. We want to expand that scheme and try to allow those gold class people to sit together. We can only encourage the scheme by providing those people with more facilities. As far as the hon. member’s last question is concerned, I agree with him. If one arrives at an airport on a Saturday or Sunday one finds great congestion there caused not by passengers but by people whom we call “hullo-and-goodbye” people. They come to meet someone or they come to see someone off. Sometimes we find that there are five visitors for one passenger. We do not have the necessary space, but we are looking into the position. Jan Smuts Airport has too many gates. It seems to me we should charge an entrance fee to restrict this congestion of people. I just want to inform the hon. member that the matter is being investigated.

The hon. member for Kempton Park then went on to discuss the electronic sales guide. This is a programme which will be incorporated into the SAAFARI reservations computer on 1 April 1981 to ensure that any passenger wishing to undertake a journey will be offered the most convenient itinerary, whether by way of direct flights when available or by way of connecting flights, to his destination.

To conclude I should like to reply to a few members who put specific questions to me. The hon. member for Witwatersberg spoke about longer trains at stations, and I want to thank the hon. member for his contribution.

The hon. member for De Aar mentioned the astronomical subsidies paid to the railways in other countries. Sir, you just cannot believe to what extent other countries have to subsidize their passenger services.

The hon. member for Kimberley South sketched the position of the staff and referred to the vastness of the transport undertaking.

The hon. member for Nigel, who is my neighbour, summed up the annual report quite splendidly. He made a study of this matter. One can see what constituency he represents from the amount of interest he displays in the Railway workers.

The hon. member for Sunnyside made a speech here which impressed me because he raised one specific matter. He said that even the livestock on the farms should be grateful for the railway line. The feed and lucerne and salt for animals on the farm are conveyed by rail . . .

To the abattoirs!

I found it very interesting to listen to the contrast, to how a person could sing the praises of the Railways organization. This puts me in mind of two men in gaol. “Two men looked through the selfsame bars, the one saw mud and the other stars.” Hon. members on this side of the House see stars and those hon. members see the other stuff. [Interjections.] As economists, the hon. member for Sunnyside and the hon. member Dr. A. J. Visser stressed the importance of selfsufficiency as against reliance on foreign resources. I want to thank them both most cordially for their contributions.

The hon. member for Beaufort West also made a contribution. When I arrived there, at the scene of the diaster, I was told that that hon. member had walked through the mud from Sunday evening, all of Monday and Tuesday, lending a helping hand to his voters. I want to say to the hon. member for Beaufort West: My friend, those people grew to love you. Thank you for your contribution in this debate.

The hon. member for Gezina discussed the possibility of a proper rail fink to South Ndebele. There are various statutory bodies which are going into these matters such as the railway line to South Ndebele to which that hon. member referred. The Railways is aware of what is being accomplished on these committees—these statutory bodies— which are going into these matters. This modus operandi will also be adopted as far as transport services to the South Ndebele National State are concerned.

The hon. member for Bloemfontein North spelt out very clearly that what the Opposition wanted was that the Railways should be a profit-making organization, like private industries. The hon. member replied very effectively to that.

The hon. member for Bloemfontein East discussed the role of the Railways in the concept of a constellation of states. The Railways is going to play an integral part in the eventual realization of this constellation concept.

The hon. member for Algoa asked what the Railways was doing to increase its share of the market. That is a reasonable question. The reply is publicity, better services, mechanization, etc. We are experiencing keen competition from private transport, and we have to act competitively.

The hon. member for Rosettenville, Oom Sporie, traditionally sang the praises of the train. I want to tell the hon. member for Rosettenville that he pleaded for a railway station at Delmas three years ago. I knew at the time that I had no chance at all of getting one. The hon. member kept on asking and before I became Minister the station at Delmas was on the programme and I want to tell the hon. member that we will call that station “Sporie station.” I want to thank the hon. member very much for his contribution. Once again he praised the Blue Train. He also asked whether we could not use the old Blue Train again, but I have been informed that it would be completely uneconomical to recommission the old Blue Train. As regards the questions asked by the hon. member for Yeoville in connection with Granger Bay, etc., I shall reply to him later.

†The hon. member for East London North asked about the export of maize through East London and he also mentioned the possibility of additional transport through East London. His question is very reasonable. I remember that when I had some connection with agriculture it was said that the exportation of wool through East London should not cease. The Wool Board then pointed out that for that purpose they would have to receive a subsidy because they could not afford having Port Elizabeth and East London. In reply to the hon. member’s question, however, I can inform him that the maize crop this year will result in the East London silo and harbour running at full capacity.

Mr. Speaker, I do not know whether the hon. the Minister intends dealing with it, but could he answer my question about the possible commuter station at Booysens in Johannesburg?

We do not have any information concerning a new commuter station. The officials tell me there is nothing to that effect on the agenda.

No suggestion has been made?

Definitely not for Booysens.

*In any event, the hon. member is moving to Natal, and when we meet again, I shall inform his successor about what has happened in the meantime. At present, however, there is nothing on the agenda.

The hon. member for Humansdorp took leave of us in the course of his speech. We arrived here together and we both served in the agricultural study group. I am so pleased that he chose this debate as an opportunity to say goodbye. He is the son of a renowned Minister of Transport Affairs who handled this portfolio for many years. To me the hon. member was always an inspiration and an example of how to do things in a calm and straightforward way. There were times when I visited him in the Gamtoos Valley when things were going badly as a result of the floods. Yesterday he referred to the narrow-gauge railway-line and also discussed agricultural extension and pointed out what tremendous progress had been made. On behalf of everyone I say: Goodbye, George Malan, and thank you very much.

The hon. member for Koedoespoort gave us a wonderful description of the Railways, and referred to the handcar and to an isolated pepper-tree on the lonely expanses of the Karoo. I have great respect for a pepper-tree although many people say it is not an attractive tree. That tree grows in places with an annual rainfall of only three inches. It is an evergreen tree and can be found growing at many now abandoned stations—the beautiful pepper-tree. The hon. member also referred to the poor white problem—the time when people had been brought to their knees—and to the ATKV. He focused our attention on many fine things, and to him as well I say: Sybrand van Niekerk, goodbye and thank you very much.

Question put: That all the words after “That” stand part of the Question,

Upon which the House divided:

Mr. Speaker, I move—

The Bill before the House provides for the appropriation of a total amount of R963 million for the services of the Post Office after the expiry of the present financial year until the main Post Office budget for 1981-’82 can be submitted for consideration and approval later in the year.

Although this Bill only contains a proposal for a single bridging appropriation, I should like to give hon. members a brief review of the activities of the Post Office in the present financial year and of what is envisaged for the next financial year.

As one of the most important indicators of economic activity, the provisional operating results of the Post Office for the 1980-’81 financial year reflect the growth in economic activity which took place in the RSA in that period.

The expected revenue of the Post Office for the present financial year is 3,9% more than that which we budgeted for originally, namely, in round figures, R1 133 million as against the R1 090 million budgeted for. The operating expenditure will also be more, namely R975 million as against R961 million, but here the difference is smaller, namely 1,5%. The total operating surplus, after providing for loan redemption and an increase of standard stock, is now estimated at 16,8% more than the surplus budgeted for, namely R116,3 million as against R99,5 million. I am also glad to be able to say that we now expect a smaller loss on the postal service than originally estimated, namely R53 million as against the estimate of R63 million, while the loss on the other service which is being run at a loss, the public telegraph service, will also be smaller, namely R13,5 million as against the then anticipated loss of R15,6 million.

In view of the improved revenue generated by the economic upswing, tariff increases are not under consideration at present.

Hear, hear!

I should like to mention here that, in accordance with an undertaking given previously by the Department, telephone rentals were reduced by 50c per month with effect from 1 August last year.

As appears from this, we are in the fortunate position where the Post Office was able not only to maintain a healthy financial state of affairs, but indeed was also able with its modernized services to keep pace with the demand for more extensive and more efficient services that arose from the economic upswing. It may indeed be said that the Post Office’s services have also to a large extent stimulated the economic upswing of the past year.

The tendency for the increased demand for efficient modernized services to cause a simultaneous gradual decrease in the demand for the other more traditional services, remained in evidence in this financial year. This shift in the use of our services is particularly noticeable in the decline of the public telegraph service as against the sustained strong growth of the telex service.

The loss on the postal service to which I have referred remains high and remains a source of concern to the Post Office. It goes without saying that more tariff adjustments will have to be made sooner or later to keep this loss within limits, but we accept that for a long time the postal service will still have to be subsidized by our more profitable services. The postal service continues to be so extensive and so important to commerce as well as to the general public that it would not be in the public interest to increase postal rates overnight to the level that would really be necessary to make the service profitable.

Towards the end of 1980 the growth of investments in ordinary Post Office Savings Bank accounts, Savings Bank Certificates and National Savings Certificates started to drop substantially. To prevent this situation from worsening and to ensure that the Post Office continues to attract its fair share of the public’s investment funds, the interest rate on Savings Bank Certificates was increased from 7% to 8% per annum with effect from 12 January this year. This has already had a beneficial effect on investments in those certificates. It was also decided, in consultation with the Treasury, to issue with effect from 1 March 1981 the new eighth series National Savings Certificates announced by the Postmaster General last week. I am confident that this attractive new series, in which tax-free investments from R50 to R15 000 per person may be made carrying interest at a rate increasing from 8,5% to 10% per annum over the five-year term of the certificates, with six-monthly interest payments, will be popular with the general public.

To improve and modernize its Savings Bank service to the public, the Department accepted a tender on 22 January 1981 for the supply and installation of electronic equipment which will in due course eliminate the use of the conventional savings bank book. The new system will make use of sophisticated terminals, connected to a central computer, at which it will be possible to make withdrawals and deposits by means of plastic cards. During the first phase the electronic equipment will be installed at the 90 largest post offices in the Republic, and it is expected to be ready for use by the middle of 1982. Thereafter the improved facilities will gradually be extended country-wide.

Participation in the new system will be optional and it will operate alongside the existing Post Office savings bank book. As the new system will offer improved facilities, users of the existing one will be encouraged to switch over to the new system, but the old system will remain in use for as long as a need for it exists.

The savings services of the Post Office have become the traditional field of investment for the ordinary man and have over the years earned the trust of the public. I believe that the improved investment facilities that we have made available and the better and faster service that we propose to introduce will ensure that the attractiveness of this field of investment is restored and maintained.

In general, I am happy to say that the Post Office and its various services are highly regarded and trusted by the foreign postal and telecommunications administrations, suppliers of equipment and bankers with whom I came into contact during the past year. In particular they are impressed by the Post Office’s sound financial and management policies and its imaginative planning.

I should now like to deal in brief with several specific aspects of the Post Office’s activities.

†Staff

Like all employers in specialized fields, the Post Office is still experiencing a shortage of staff in key areas, such as technical and technical auxiliary personnel and also male clerks. In the technical and engineering fields the Post Office is one of the largest employers and also an important source of trained staff for the private sector, which, rather than undertaking adequate training themselves, often entice away staff possessing our specialized training. This phenomenon is also evident overseas. Even in the most highly developed countries of Europe I found last year that, despite an average unemployment figure of 8%, technicians and engineers, particularly in the electronics field, were just as scarce as in South Africa. Clearly, industry in general cannot train staff fast enough to cope with the vast modern developments in technology.

Our major staff shortages exist on the Witwatersrand and in the rest of the Transvaal, where the department is under more pressure than elsewhere to meet the growing demand for telecommunication services and where competition from the private sector for labour is also at its most intense. We therefore have to depend to an increasing extent on the better utilization of the manpower at our disposal, and in this regard various special arrangements have been made. Among other things, a system of salary differentiation on a geographical and group basis has been introduced, training programmes have been rationalized and special intensive courses have been introduced to equip semi-skilled staff for more advanced technical work. Methods of utilizing the services of the other population groups to a larger extent are also being investigated in depth.

The staff housing scheme to which I referred last year, has since been implemented. The scheme was received with great enthusiasm by the staff, and it is hoped that it will contribute greatly towards the promotion of a stable and happy staff corps in future. It is the intention to make available an amount of R10 million for this scheme during 1981-’82. For financial and other reasons the scheme is initially restricted to the Pretoria-Witwatersrand-Vereeniging area, where the need for housing is most acute. It will, however, also be extended to other centres in due course.

Like other large organizations, the Post Office is compelled, apart from fostering schemes that assist the staff in acquiring their own homes, to make ample provision for official housing for its staff. In the current financial year approximately R9 million and in the ensuing financial year approximately R11 million will be spent on this, both in towns in the countryside and in the critical urban areas. In several of our cities and large towns, blocks of flats to house Post Office staff are being purchased or erected and in a large number of country towns official quarters have already been provided or are being planned.

As far as salaries are concerned, increases, generally in accordance with those granted in the rest of the public sector, are being granted to our staff with effect from 1 April 1981.

Another matter about which I should like to inform the House and of which a feasibility study is now to be made, is the possibility of moving some head office functions from Pretoria to other cities. The question has arisen whether some of our head office activities should not be transferred to areas where labour and accommodation are more readily available than in Pretoria. The indications are that it may be in the interests of the Post Office to decentralize certain divisions to such areas. As hon. members know, the Post Office Savings Bank is already situated in Bloemfontein. There are other divisions which may perhaps be moved to cities in the coastal areas without our having to sacrifice proper control. With the modern means of communication at our disposal, much more is now feasible in this direction than in the past. Such decentralization will, of course, have to be carefully planned and carried out gradually to ensure that our activities are not disrupted, and naturally the personal circumstances of the staff will also have to be fully taken into account where transfers may result from it.

Telephone services

It is expected that the Post Office will once again provide a record number of no less than 250 000 telephone services this year. This is 44 000, or 21%, more than last year and will bring the number of telephone services at the end of March to some 2 912 000, i.e. a growth of 9,4% over last year.

Despite this record effort it is estimated that the number of applicants waiting for telephone services will increase by 26 000 to a total of 130 000 at the end of March this year. The phenomenal increase in the demand for services undoubtedly not only reflects the general economic upswing, but also illustrates the improvement in the standard of living of Coloured, Asian and Black clients in particular. In fact, the increasing demand for telephone services among Blacks can be regarded as of exploding dimensions.

Achievements by the staff of the Post Office in the field of telephone services in the present financial year that give particular cause for satisfaction, are the rapid repair of large interruptions of service that have occurred. On 7 July last year, the telephone services of 14 500 people were interrupted when fire destroyed the Yeoville telephone exchange. By 18 July limited service had been restored to a part of the area served by the exchange, and by 26 July only 1 200 of the clients affected remained without a service. By the end of the following week all the telephones were back in service. This was only made possible by the excellent teamwork of the staff, who worked day and night to restore the services. Again, in the flood disaster areas of the Cape praiseworthy work was done in restoring communication services rapidly.

Automation of the telephone system

The capacity of the automatic telephone exchange system will be expanded by some 176 000 lines during the current financial year by means of the replacement of 34 manual exchanges by automatic exchanges, the establishment of 21 new automatic exchanges and the expansion of 128 existing automatic exchanges. Our planning for 1981-’82 provides for the further expansion of the capacity of the system by approximately 133 000 lines.

Electronic exchanges

In a few months’ time we will be entering the third decade of the Republic of South Africa with the commissioning of the first two digital electronic exchanges, which in this field makes the Republic of South Africa one of the foremost countries of the world. The first digital electronic change, at Sunninghill Park in the Johannesburg area, has been fully installed and is at present being tested. The second, in Pretoria, will be ready for testing by March. It is expected that both these exchanges will be in full operation by July. These complex exchange systems will henceforth be installed more rapidly. The programme for 1981-’82 makes provision for electronic exchanges with a total capacity of some 73 700 lines in Johannesburg, Pretoria, Cape Town, Durban and Bloemfontein. In the course of time these exchanges, of which the first ones are being imported complete, will be locally manufactured to an ever-increasing extent in accordance with agreements that have been concluded with the large manufacturers.

Push-button telephones

As I have announced previously, pushbutton telephones will be made available for public use on application with effect from 1 April 1981. To distinguish this telephone from the Protea telephone, it has been decided to name the push-buttom telephone after one of South Africa’s most beautiful and rare Protea species, viz. the Lorea. The instruments will be available in ivory colour only and will function from any automatic telephone service, with the exception of shared services and automatic party-line services. The push-button telephone has built-in locking facilities as a standard item, and the additional rental per instrument— locking facilities included—amounts to R1 per month. In addition, the normal replacement charge of R10 will be applicable in respect of each instrument that has to be replaced. Full further particulars will be announced later in a Press announcement.

The initial stock of push-button telephones will inevitably be limited, and it will consequently take a considerable time to satisfy the expected demand.

Data services

The demand for data services is still increasing. It is expected that more than 4 200 new services will be provided during this financial year, representing a growth of approximately 30% within one year. Indications are that some R16 million will have to be spent during 1981-’82 to meet the expected demand for approximately 5 600 data modems.

Telex services

It is also estimated that the number of telex services will grow by about 3 070, or 16,5%, during this financial year.

A second fully electronic program-controlled telex exchange, in addition to the one in Johannesburg, was commissioned in Cape Town in August 1980 at a cost of R6,6 million. A third similar exchange is being installed in Durban. These exchanges will form the basis of one of the most modern telex networks in the world and will also be equipped to meet the needs of the future international standardized business communication service, which in essence is an improved and faster telex service and is known as teletex.

International telecommunications

The external telephone service was further expanded during this financial year and is now available to 193 countries. International telephone traffic grew by more than 17% this year. The telex service is at present available to 190 countries, 98 of which can be dialled direct by our clients.

Latest technological developments in the telecommunications field

I now wish to refer to the latest technological developments in the telecommunications field. It is increasingly being accepted by all sectors of the economy today that it is easier, cheaper and quicker to move information rather than people. In other words: Do not travel, but dial and save time and expense.

On the one hand the ever-increasing cost of fuel and labour is stimulating the use of electronic communication and on the other hand technology offers several improved, effective and cheap ways of conveying information in any form, be it oral, written or pictorial. Hon. members are already aware of some of these developments, such as the teletex service I have mentioned; the video conference service, by means of which persons in different cities can hold meetings via a special television system; the telefax service, by means of which drawings and documents may be transmitted between offices in different places via telephone lines and others. I am therefore of the opinion that, with the aid of these facilities, the Post Office will in due course also be able to make a contribution towards the attempts aimed at rationalizing and streamlining the Public Service. It can even be foreseen that in the future, when such electronic facilities are readily available, State departments may be able to use them to make do with less session staff coming to Cape Town. The Cabinet has already given approval for an exhaustive investigation by the Post Office, in collaboration with the Commission for Administration and the Railways Administration, into the possibilities afforded by the new facilities for effecting savings on manpower required for parliamentary service.

Citizens’ band radio service

At present there are some 90 000 licensed users of the citizens’ band radio service that was introduced on 1 May 1979. It is clear that the use of this service is now stabilizing. The initial flood of applications for licences has subsided and the malpractices and irregularities that occurred in the initial stages have decreased considerably.

* Posts

As labour is by far the biggest item of the operating expenditure of the postal service, the Post Office is continuing with the further modernization and mechanization of this service. A contract of R7,8 million was entered into this year for the further expansion of mechanical sorting equipment. The new equipment includes, inter alia, optical character readers by means of which post-codes on some postal articles can be read automatically. This will further speed up the processing of postal articles.

Philately

A few words about the Post Office’s philatelic services. The growth in the Post Office’s philatelic services remains phenomenal. In the 1979-’80 financial year, philatelic material to a value of approximately R2,2 million was sold. For the portion of the present financial year that ended 31 January 1981, i.e. 10 months, this figure already exceeds R4,7 million.

Buildings

The erection of buildings to meet the ever-increasing demand for the Department’s services is continuing unabated. During the past year 43 major building works, including the John Vorster microwave tower in Pretoria, and numerous smaller ones were completed at a cost of some R27 million. In addition, construction on 22 major projects to the value of R21 million is in progress. The most important of these is the redevelopment of the Post Office’s Church Square complex in Pretoria, the first phase of which is progressing well. It is expected that no less than R30 million will be spent on major building services during 1981-’82.

General

During this financial year, on 31 August 1980, Mr. L. F. Rive left the service of the Post Office after a decade as Postmaster-General. On behalf of the Government, and, I am confident, also of both sides of this House, I should like to make use of this opportunity to convey to him our thanks and appreciation for the immense contribution he has made to the development of the Post Office.

As Postmaster-General, Mr. Rive succeeded brilliantly, by inspiring leadership and efficient management, in building the image of the Post Office into one of vital growth and forward-looking ideas so much needed during a period of rapid development in the socio-economic and technological fields. Time does not on this occasion allow me to go into the details of the particular achievements realized in his time. Suffice it to say, therefore, that history will record his term of office as a decade of outstanding achievement in the field of posts and telecommunications.

It is small wonder that the Government so highly regards Mr. Rive’s abilities that he has been given the task of leading the development planning of Soweto, even before his retirement from the service of the Post Office.

Mr. Rive’s successor, Mr. H. O. Bester, took over as Postmaster-General on 1 September 1980. He has been welcomed with open arms not only in the Department but also by the public and private sectors. With his many years’ experience of management and staff matters, his good academic background and excellent leadership qualities, I have no doubt that Mr. Bester will further lead the Post Office in outstanding fashion on its road of progress. Like his predecessor, Mr. Bester commands high esteem and trust both in this country and overseas, and I should like to make use of this opportunity to welcome him, on behalf of the whole House, in the post of Postmaster-General.

Finally, I should like to thank the Management and the staff of nearly 76 000 of the Post Office for their loyalty and support. The fact that the Post Office remains able to maintain services at a satisfactory level and at the same time to keep pace with the rapid technological developments in practically every sphere of its activities, bears testimony to the particular orientation towards planning and the dedication and zeal of its staff. I am deeply impressed by the human material that the Post Office has at its disposal, not only when it comes to their excellent work performance, but also in a matter such as the generosity they display towards their colleagues and fellowmen in distress. This is best reflected in their action recently when, at the time of the tragic events in the areas devastated by floods in the Western and Southern Cape, they spontaneously amongst themselves within 14 days collected an amount of R125 000 for the Disaster Relief Fund. I believe hon. members will agree that this praiseworthy gesture epitomizes the spirit of patriotism, willingness to serve and motivation among the staff of the Post Office. I am proud of them all.

The flood disaster in the Western Cape also took its toll of Post Office staff and their families, among them the Postmaster of Laingsburg, Mr. P. R. F. Koen, his wife and two children. To the various Post Office families who have lost relatives and possessions, I extend our sincere sympathy.

I have no hesitation in saying that the Post Office is acquitting itself well of its task and I request this House to vote the funds provided for in the Bill.

Mr. Speaker, I have listened with intense interest to the hon. the Minister introducing the Post Office Part Appropriation Bill in which he is seeking the approval of this House to appropriate R963 million to see us through to the main Post Office budget in September 1981. This is an election year and therefore a Bill of this nature only comes before the House once every three to five years. It has been the practice however to treat it in much the same fashion as a budget itself and in this case it has to see the Post Office through for the next seven months.

We in the official Opposition naturally welcome the fact that the hon. the Minister has not introduced any increases in the tariffs of services provided by the Post Office. We are grateful and we thank the hon. the Minister for this fact. It would be surprising, however, if he had, for although he has the power to do so it would be unusual to do so in a part appropriation measure such as this. More importantly, the hon. the Minister is still chewing on the fat provided in the main budget when substantial increases in tariffs were scheduled for October 1978 but only became effective later on 1 February 1980. Furthermore, the Post Office enjoyed the benefits of such increases in a buoyant economy when the country was awash with cash and when the private sector was developing and expanding, thus pouring increased revenue into the coffers of this service. Then again, tactically it would be disastrous for the NP Government to increase tariffs in the fact of a general election that is around the comer and upset voters even more than they are now since they have been told of the heavy burden they will have to bear in meeting the increases proposed in the Railways and Harbours Part Appropriation Bill, increases that will send the rate of inflation soaring into the ’twenties.

The fat provided by the previous budget but one, together with the revenue obtained over and above that estimated, will readily absorb the additional amount required to pay the increases in salaries and see the Post Office through to enjoy further prosperity in an economic climate with an estimated 5% growth. The hon. the Minister is on a good wicket, Mr. Speaker. He is batting on a wicket that he is not taking very much spin. However, I think that he may have to face a few googlies during the next few overs in this debate.

The first question I should like to put to the hon. the Minister is in connection with the welcome increases in salaries for the staff of the Post Office that the hon. the Minister mentioned in his speech to us today. The hon. the Minister has not told us, however, what amount is set aside for the increase and he has not told us how much the increase is going to be. I am quite certain that the 76 000 workers in the Post Office would like to know just what is in store for them from 1 April 1981.

This part appropriation, like other budgets, has its impact upon the private individual, the business sector and the national economy. It is therefore most important, and has far-reaching consequences. In terms of the Wiehahn Report the Post Office is a self-contained viable arm of the Government. It must be run on efficient and business lines. This is the time to review its activities, to examine its efficiencies or inefficiencies, its problems, its prospects, its impact on and role in the national economy.

This is now the second year that this hon. Minister has introduced this financial measure. We wish him well in the onerous task he has undertaken. I note that he has given a great deal of attention and devotion to this portfolio, including several trips overseas, of which I trust the country will receive the benefit. I hope we shall have further information in this regard in due course.

I would especially like to congratulate Mr. H. O. Bester who has taken on the post of Postmaster-General. He is a man of great personal charm who is friendly and approachable as well as efficient. I am sure that he will carry out his duties in as efficient a manner as his predecessor, Mr. Rive, who had heaped upon him much personal praise which he well deserved. We wish him well in the onerous task he is undertaking. [Interjections.]

I would like to congratulate the Postmaster-General on his annual report which is clear, full of detail and very well presented. This part appropriation is presented now at a time when, according to the report, the operating results of the department for the financial year 1979-’80 are proof of unequalled growth in virtually all fields of its activities. Its fixed assets increased by 15% over the previous financial year. Total income increased by more than 19% to R919 million and total operating expenditure by almost 15% to R801 million. Capital expenditure amounted to approximately R340 million during the financial year as against R313 million in the previous year. This increase also reflects the bouyancy of the economy and the climate in which the Post Office is operating.

Whilst the climate for the future may not be as rosy as during the past 12 months, with inflation running at anywhere from 15% to 20% plus during the current year, nevertheless the growth rate is anticipated at about 5% and I believe the Post Office in its activities can look forward to another year of growth, of increased revenue and of increased asset value subject, however, to the Post Office providing sufficient and adequately trained staff to maintain and provide the services it must provide for the nation. The hon. the Minister must take adequate and positive steps to do recruiting and to stimulate growth.

The precise percentage increase in revenue over the past year as well as that in respect of operating expenditure has been indicated today by the hon. the Minister. As far as revenue is concerned, last year it was 19,4% more than that of the previous year. This year the expected revenue for the financial year is 3,9% more than budgeted for, namely R1 133 million as against R1 090 million, i.e. R43 million more. The operating expenditure was 19,7% higher last year but this year, although it has increased from R961 million to R975 million, the increase is smaller—only 1,5%—and brings about an improvement of 18,2% which is commendable. The total operating surplus was estimated last year at R100,5 million as against R75,6 million, and after providing for loan redemption and increase of standard stock, it is now estimated at R116,3 million as against the hon. the Minister’s figure of R99,5 million which is 16,8% higher.

I am particularly pleased to note today that the loss on postal services is actually R10 million less than estimated and on public telegraph services, another item which forms the substance of what I have to say today, the loss will also be smaller, namely, R13,5 million as against R15,6 million.

The all-round improvement which I suggested last year we would experience because of the bouyant economy, is indeed pleasing and substantiates fully my argument that sufficient fat has been built into this budget to carry the Post Office through and to cope with the increased charges and increased salaries.

Last year I pointed out that revenue had increased by R29,4 million and expenditure had decreased by R15,6 million, leaving us with R45 million to the good which differed vastly from the year before when a figure of only R4 million was mentioned. I suggested that this increase should see us through for a period of five years and I trust that in view of the present increase in revenue this will remain so. If the hon. the Minister draws up a three-year plan and ensures that the department keeps to it with regard to future planning as far as revenue and expenditure are concerned, he should be able to maintain this tariff level.

On page 19 of the annual report we read the following—

It would appear that this year 59,9% of the capital programme is to be financed from internal sources, and that must then be compared with 60,1% for the year before. I want once again to raise the question regarding the Franzsen Commission’s recommendations upon which the Post Office operates and say once again that it is not the law of the Medes and the Persians but is merely a guideline and that this should be reviewed in the light of the present financial climate. I again repeat my demand for a tariff stabilization fund into which the unanticipated surpluses, that is, surpluses over and above those budgeted for that will not be required for increased standard stock, net operating capital, the redemption of loans or collateral investments for housing loans, can be paid.

The Railways has a Rates Equalization Fund and this should cushion any unforeseen increases and therefore be able to hold down the tariffs for many years to come. Since we are now celebrating the 11th anniversary of the autonomy of the Post Office, following the Wiehahn Commission’s recommendations that the Post Office be run on business principles, there is no reason why we cannot establish a tariff stabilization fund and why the telecommunications division should not carry the losses on the postal services.

It is clear that because the telephone system produces 73,6% of the income as against the 12,2% of the postal agency services the former service should carry the latter because this is all one viable entity.

I readily concede that there are losses on the postal services. In fact, in 1976-’77 this loss was R22 million which in successive years rose to R30 million, then to R37,3 million and subsequently to R38,3 million. Although last year the loss was estimated at R63,11 million, it is now estimated at R53 million. The overestimate of R10 million is indeed pleasing for reasons that I will deal with later.

Against this, the telephone service alone showed a surplus of revenue over expenditure of R115,7 million in 1979 and last year it was estimated at R182,3 million. This represented an excess of R118,7 million after deduction of the loss on postal services. As there are no estimates accompanying the Part Appropriation before us, will the hon. the Minister please indicate during this debate what the excess revenue is that has been obtained up to now from telephone services?

According to the Postmaster-General’s report the Post Office incurred a loss of about R43 million on its postal services and R13 million on telegraph services during the year 1979-’80. This disturbs me, Sir. The Postmaster-General indicated that the loss on these two services was now estimated at R52 million and R14 million respectively, and while submitting “that the profit motive in the Post Office always remains subordinate to the service motive, it is not in the interests of either the public or the Post Office to continue subsidizing these two non-profitable services to the same extent as at present”. He therefore indicates that the rates on these two services should gradually be adjusted over the following few years until they are subsidized by 10% only. No doubt this statement conforms with the policy laid down by the hon. the Minister. In fact in his Second Reading speech today he said—

This causes me and I think also the public grave difficulty. As I stated, telecommunications revenue amounted to 73,6% of the total and it could quite easily carry the 12,2% of the postal agency services. Secondly, there are indications in the report of an increase in postal rates to cover the estimated loss of R66 million. If the hon. the Minister does this over a number of years, as has been suggested, this would be inflationary, as people would then try to anticipate the increases and put up their costs, thus causing further inflation. In addition, one must realize that the postal service is the lifeblood—and the hon. the Minister will not argue with me about this—of most businesses in the country. In fact, in some cases businesses cannot survive without the postal service. So the Post Office is really a partner in many businesses and wrong action could be counterproductive as far as the Post Office is concerned.

It is therefore essential for businesses to know precisely what increases are proposed and when they are to be introduced so that the businesses concerned may draw up their budgets and work out their costing in order to make provision for their own profit margins and ensure their own survival. I cannot over-emphasize the importance of this and I therefore want to impress upon the hon. the Minister the necessity of being absolutely certain of what he is going to do and making positive and unequivocal statements to the public so that members of the public may know exactly where they stand at all times. At the same time, however, he must be very mindful of the fact that any increase in postal tariffs does not only affect the private individual who may send off the odd few letters now and then and may therefore somehow be able to cope with the increases. Since the provision of postal services involves millions of rands every year— large sums being involved in the case of certain businesses and organizations—the hon. the Minister must please understand the import of what he is doing when he proposes increases. He must please realize the effect of introducing such increases.

There is another difficulty I have in regard to the unwillingness to see the losses on postal services being subsidized by the telecommunications section. In this connection I want to refer to the changes that must come about as far as the postal service itself is concerned, something the hon. the Minister referred to briefly here today. A fundamental shift in policy must surely come about. Switching to electronic mail will, in fact, change the approach and the policy. The electronic mail shake-up, which could begin almost immediately, is based on the teletex system. An in-depth article by Eric Wood, Director of Digital Services in the Post Office, appeared in one of the official magazines. As I understand it, the new service will be available to the general public and will facilitate the instant relaying of electronic mail letters between main post office centres, but the main market is likely to be the business world, companies being able to communicate instantly and fully with one another.

Among the new services I trust the Post Office is considering, are hopefully better facsimile facilities—so that businessmen will instantly be able to transmit such things as technical drawings, pictures, graphs and even signatures. This is something the hon. the Minister also referred to here today. The magazine states, and I quote—

The telegram service is expected to play a diminishing role and may, indeed, be discontinued. In that event, the losses on telegrams will fall away because a telegram service will no longer be required. Although the facsimile service has been in use for several years, it has only been used on a small scale, despite considerable technological advances. This is attributable to lack of suitable standards and to incompatibility among the machines of various manufacturers. This shortcoming has now been largely overcome. Telex has a limited alphabet and a comparatively slow transmission speed. Mr. Wood says that electronic mail is an umbrella term covering several different ways of transmitting letters and adds that one method is Intelpost, a public facsimile service used overseas. By this method an urgent letter can be transmitted from the United States to the United Kingdom instantly for about R16.

Word processors also look like going national and even possibly international. The Post Office must rethink its policy on this hybrid machine that can be used with everything from a simple typewriter to a printing machine. If allowed, it can be used as a long-distance communications device. The use of communications processors linked by Post Office lines is not permitted at present on the grounds that this practice would adversely affect the use of telex services. I think this is a mistaken view, and the hon. the Minister may perhaps give consideration to making changes in this connection.

The cornerstone of future electronic mail services will almost surely be the teletex system which promises a bigger shake-up in business methods than in Post Office policy. Mr. Wood says that the essential parts of the teletex terminal are the keyboard, the printer and the forwarding and receiving memories. When not transmitting texts, it can also be used as a typewriter typing at a speed of one A4 page per eight seconds. It is anticipated that switching to electronic mail will make it possible to send letters instantaneously at a maximum price of 2 cents for an A4 page.

In the light of all this, which I trust is happening within the Post Office and which I call upon the hon. the Minister to react to in this debate, the proposal to which I referred earlier becomes completely academic and falls away.

Turning now to the telephone system itself and its revenue, which is the main source of revenue of the Post Office, I would like to refer to the reply given by the hon. the Minister to Question No. 143 on 9 February 1981, in which he informed the House that there are 120 974 telephone applications outstanding in the Republic which include outstanding applications in the main centres. In the Witwatersrand area there are about 40 000 outstanding applications, which I think is a very substantial number for an area such as that; in Durban there are about 12 000 outstanding applications and, in Cape Town about 16 000. These figures are high for the three most vital and largest centres in South Africa. In his speech today, however, the hon. the Minister indicated that this backlog would increase to 130 000.

By the end of March.

Yes, by the end of March. While I do not make light of the fact and commend the Post Office for installing 591 326 telephones during 1979-’80, which I think is a fine achievement, I nevertheless wish to point out that should these 130 000 telephones for which applications have been made, be installed, this would bring in a large amount of revenue to the department as far as the annual rental, installation and use of these telephones are concerned. Therefore it is not only in the interests of the applicants to get their telephones as quickly as possible—which incidentally is something that is essential to all, especially to old people, those living alone and those people living in outlying areas—but also in the interests of the Post Office as a form of revenue.

No doubt the question of staff comes into play in regard to this problem, including technical staff who handle the installation of telephones. The question of the availability of equipment is also important here. Sir, I see no reason why equipment should not be available in stock because the anticipated demand should be an indication to the Post Office. When the development of new townships is proposed, I see no reason why the Post Office should not be advised of the proposed developments and the speed of such developments so that they can make the necessary arrangements to lay in stock in respect of the cables and other equipment necessary in order to tie up with and meet the demand timeously so that firstly the Post Office will obtain the revenue and, secondly, so that people moving into new townships will not have to wait ages before telephone connections are made available to them.

As far as the Post Office staff is concerned, on page 29 of the report it is stated that during the 1979-’80 financial year, 17 204 full-time officials left the service. This represents 22,5% of the total establishment and an increase of 2 167 resignations over the figure for the previous year. The report actually contains the following warning—

In response to this statement I want to express the view that, since this department is not subject to the Department of State administration, the Post Office, in order to retain its staff, is free to pay salaries and provide service conditions that will make it competitive with the private sector. I repeat: We just cannot afford any breakdown in the services that are vital to the economy of South Africa. If the Post Office comes to a halt, the whole nation will in fact come to a halt.

Many posts can be filled by non-Whites and they should be trained to fill these vacancies. There are a large number of unemployed people in South Africa, we are told. The figure of approximately one million has been given. Too many of them are unskilled but nevertheless the Post Office should anticipate the position and continue to train people and entice them to join the Post Office.

The wage gap which is 90% of White salaries in the case of Coloureds and Indians and 73% in the case of Blacks should be narrowed and, in fact, eliminated altogether. There is no justification for it. If one wants to attract staff from across the colour line, I do not think one must discriminate against them. One must close the gap as quickly as possible.

Is the hon. member aware that it has already been eliminated in certain spheres.

I am aware that the gap is narrowing and that there is no gap as far as Postmasters themselves are concerned. However, there cannot be too many Postmasters.

The postal and telecommunications services have a reputation of being well run under brilliant administration. Therefore I want to pose the question why we are in this position. It is a fact that as at 31 March 1980 there was a shortage of nearly 1 440 trained technicians, draughtsmen, telecommunications electricians and telecommunications mechanics of all population groups, and it is unfortunately the Witwatersrand that is experiencing the largest shortage. I am aware of the various training schools for all races. Indeed, I have visited some of them. It is, however, clear that the proof of the pudding is in the eating. It is no good blaming the private sector and, with respect, it is no good calling upon the private sector, since the competition between the Government and the private sector, has been going on for years and will continue for many years to come. I think we must try to put our own house in order as best we can by making the service as attractive and viable as we can.

I want to ask the hon. the Minister whether he can really blame the private sector and whether he himself must not accept blame for the staff crisis. In the first place the Government must accept full responsibility for changing the incumbent of this portfolio three times since 1977. This hon. Minister must now assume the burden of the previous Ministers who have held this office. Let me remind the House that as far back as September 1972, according to the then Minister of Posts and Telegraphs, Mr. Marais Viljoen, the shortage of technical staff remained a major problem in Post Office efforts to wipe out the backlog of telephones and to provide an adequate service. In June 1973 the Postmaster-General, Mr. Louis Rive, said that plans to improve the telecommunications system would be disrupted if the drain on technical staff continued. In August 1973 a spokesman for the S.A. Telecommunications Association said: “Resignations increased by 80% in the last six months.” The President of the Posts and Telegraphs Association, Mr. J. M. Liebenberg, said: “Pay increases are an urgent necessity.” In March 1976 Senator Winchester said in the Senate: “There are more than 16 000 people in the Post Office who earn less than R100 per month.”

Those are not technicians. You are becoming confused.

No, they are workers. Then, in March 1974, the then Minister of Posts and Telecommunications, Mr. Marais Viljoen, told Post Office workers they would have to wait for pay increases. In July 1974 the Postmaster-General, Mr. Louis Rive, said: “1 000 skilled technicians are being lost to commerce and industry every year.”

Why do you not start from 1947?

In March alone last year 1 987 officials resigned, compared with 7 889 the year before, according to the present hon. Minister. Can one then turn around now and claim that the Post Office has been suddenly confronted with this crisis? The Post Office has been warned since 1972 and they saw what was happening. Various Postmasters-General and Ministers have issued this warning. Therefore, the hon. the Minister cannot come along now and blame the private sector. This situation should have been planned for so that we could have avoided the crisis we are faced with today. 17 000 people resigned from the Post Office last year and the shortage of skilled technicians is still critical.

Please say how many joined the service. Why do you not give the complete picture?

As far as sorting is concerned, I believe that we should instal the most modern equipment. Some three years ago this department incurred substantial capital expenditure on telephone services and telephone exchanges. I now understand that an electronic exchange has become available and I would like to know from the hon. the Minister whether these new electronic exchanges are operating side by side with the equipment that was purchased some three years ago. The hon. the Minister must also tell us whether the old equipment is being replaced by this equipment and whether any wasteful and fruitless expenditure was incurred in respect of the capital that was expended three years ago.

I would like to take this opportunity to congratulate the Post Office on the assistance and services they provided after the flood damage which occurred at Laingsburg and other areas when 60 km of underground cable was swept away causing a breakdown in telephone services and a lack of mail. The floods also involved Montagu and Robertson and other outlying areas and I think the Post Office, under the direction of the Postmaster-General, did a splendid job in an emergency situation by providing the necessary communications which are so essential. I also want to thank the radio hams who played such an important part—especially in areas around the Cape—by providing vital means of communication at a time when the telephone services had broken down.

May I, on behalf of this side of the House, associate myself with the hon. the Minister’s remarks in regard to the sad loss of the Postmaster of Laingsburg, Mr. Koen and his family and in regard to all those who suffered in the disaster.

Although the hon. member for Sunnyside complimented me last year, he also criticized me for not telling the House which postal tariffs had not been increased. I think that is a specious argument because when the Minister of Finance presents his main budget and raises taxes in one sphere, it is not proper to point out that although he has raised income tax, he has not raised customs and excise duties or the tax on tobacco or liquor as well as sales tax and things of that nature. Therefore, I think that argument must fall away.

*Mr. Speaker, in the light of all these circumstances which I have outlined today and in the light of the facts which I have presented to this House, I move as an amendment—

1. (1) embarks on an intensive recruiting and training programme for all races;
2. (2) eliminates the wage gap between races;
3. (3) projects and proposes a three-year plan for the development and progress of the Department of Posts and Telecommunications; and
4. (4) in relation to Post Office tariffs—
   1. (a) undertakes not to raise any tariffs without first coming to Parliament; and
   2. (b) gives six months’ notice of any increase in tariffs thereafter.”.

Mr. Speaker, the hon. member for Hillbrow will hear from me in a moment. However, before dealing with his speech I want to congratulate the hon. the Minister on still occupying this portfolio, and I wish to extend a hearty welcome to him. Although the hon. member for Hillbrow expressed some criticism, I am very grateful that the hon. the Minister is again here as our Minister, and we look forward in the years that lie ahead to the good service he is going to render the Post Office.

We also want to congratulate the hon. the Minister wholeheartedly on the fine Post Office part appropriation he has introduced, and particularly for having announced no tariff increases of any kind. That speaks volumes, and at a later stage I shall dwell for a time on that. I also wish to associate myself with the hon. the Minister’s farewell and tribute to the former Postmaster-General, Mr. Louis Rive. It is surely recognized on both sides, particularly on this side of the House, that he is a man who has rendered South Africa very good service. Then, too, in the same breath I want to welcome our new Postmaster-General. We have come to know him as a man who knows what he wants and where he wants to go. He knows his people and his job. Welcome to this post. We know he will fare very well. Many congratulations, too, to the top management who have been promoted and the confidence placed in those people to conduct the administration of the Post Office and everything that involves.

Then, too, I specially wish to congratulate the department and the hon. the Minister— and I am pleased the hon. member for Hillbrow did so this year; the Opposition has never done so before—on this fantastically good annual report. I do not know what department or what private institution could to submit a better report. It may be just as good, but it cannot be better. It is outstanding: It contains a vast amount of information; it is compact and carefully drawn up and a pleasure to read and handle. It is a pleasure to make a study of the Post Office affairs and everything that involves when one receives an annual report such as this.

At this point I should like to turn to the hon. member for Hillbrow. I hope he does not think I am going to congratulate him. Looking at him, he reminds me of the commercial traveller who arrived at a farm. Looking round, he saw a pig in the yard, and commented: Listen, you must take a stick and beat that pig, because if it has not done any harm yet, it is going to very soon. The hon. member for Hillbrow did not do so much harm today, but he did a great deal the other day. And in that regard I think we two must cross swords across the floor of the House this afternoon. All I can say to him is “goodbye”, because I do not know whether he will come back after 29 April.

After this report had been tabled, the Rand Daily Mail came up with a rather wild front-page news report. In doing so, it took the hon. member for Hillbrow in tow. What did the hon. member in fact do? I do not know whether the hon. member read the annual report, but the article in the Rand Daily Mail reads as follows—

It was a “shock” to him. The hon. member for Hillbrow did not read the report, and he came along this afternoon and congratulated the department and its staff. Surely that flatly contradicts what he said in public. I want to ask the hon. member here and now whether he had read the report on the day when he made this statement or only the Rand Daily Mail?

Yes, I had read it.

Very well. The hon. member did not only read the Rand Daily Mail; he also read the report. I therefore want to ask him something else. He went on to say—

That is the report of 31 March 1980. It is supposed to be such a shocking thing that this should have happened under the management and administration of a good Postmaster-General and his staff. And this is not the new occupant of the post. He was under the impression that he was attacking the new Postmaster-General. At that stage Mr. Louis Rive was still Postmaster-General, together with the whole top management. He was in charge of the Post Office from 1968, when it became autonomous. We know that before that time all the revenue of the Post Office went to the State. During those years these people have made the Post Office what it is today, but this hon. member unashamedly criticizes and undermines these people in the public Press. Then the hon. member comes along here this afternoon, very piously, and makes a pretence of congratulating the Postmaster-General and his staff. What does he do in public, however? There he makes political capital out of this; purely in order to win an election. However, the public of South Africa see right through him. He will not get away with this kind of thing. [Interjections.]

I want to go further. The hon. member went on to say: “I have repeatedly called for a stabilization fund to cushion rising costs.” Now I want to ask the hon. member: If a stabilization fund in which money is to be set aside were to be established, should the money come from the postal services or from the telephone service? From which should it come?

I shall answer you later.

Must it come from both of these services?

Santa Claus can bring it.

If the hon. member wants the money in the stabilization fund to be debited against one of the services of the post office, then surely the Post Office is going to have an even greater deficit. The Franszen Commission gave us a very good idea what to do about this matter. As I have already said, the way that the Post Office is being run is the correct way. This year the amount from self-generated funds is 60%, as against the 45,7% of the previous year. This is the right thing. This is the correct policy. That is the correct procedure that is being followed by the Post Office to finance its capital budget.

The hon. member for Hillbrow referred to the tariff increases. Now, I want to know from him where he heard that there were going to be tariff increases. He speaks about tariff increases in this newspaper report.

In his amendment too.

Yes, he mentions it in his amendment too. Surely it is a lie to say anything of the kind, and after all, the hon. member does not tell lies. [Interjections.]

But he is bitterly disappointed.

As far as tariff increases are concerned, I want to put a few things to the hon. member. Tariffs were increased on 1 February 1980, four months later than was originally envisaged, and five years after the previous tariff increase. If, then, we take into account the fact that the Post Office has grown and flourished in South Africa for five years, that fantastic improvements have been effected in all respects, that the staff of the Post Office have worked extremely hard, then it is true that the staff of the Post Office deserve the praise and respect of everyone in South Africa. I believe that we must go and tell the voters of South Africa that the PFP has no respect for the years of hard work done by the staff of the Post Office, nor for the good services they have rendered.

That is a lot of rubbish, and you know it.

What has happened? The tariff increases amounted to a mere 12,78%. Now I just want to refer to one thing. The postage on letters was increased from 3 cents to 5 cents. What has to be done for that 5 cents? A letter which is posted here has to be removed, transported to the post office, sorted, and placed in the correct postbag. From here, post is conveyed throughout the world and throughout South Africa to thousands of destinations. On the other side it is re-sorted and then delivered. All this for a mere 5 cents. Would the hon. member for Hillbrow be prepared to do all that for only 5 cents? The cost of telephone calls has been increased from 4 cents to 5 cents per unit. Really, it is ridiculous to think how small this increase is. Then the hon. member for Hillbrow comes along and complains and kicks up a fuss about this. The cost of telegrams has been increased from 3 cents to 5 cents per word. Surely that is nothing to get angry about.

I just want to quote a few things to the hon. member here so that he may take cognizance of these matters.

Mr. Speaker, I said to the hon. member for Orange Grove yesterday that he lacked manners. It seems to me that the hon. member for Hillbrow has no manners either. I called for his attention, but he takes no notice of me. [Interjections.]

Listen, Alf.

I still want to say a few things to the hon. member for Hillbrow in connection with tariff increases. It was decided to afford relief to telephone subscribers in two fields with effect from 1 August 1980. All telephone subscribers would benefit. In the first place the telephone rental for main services was reduced by R6 per annum. This is a reduction. However, the hon. member makes a fuss about an increase in tariffs announced after five years. What is also very important is the bringing forward of the time at which the cheaper tariff with regard to main line calls takes effect. Previously it was 22h00. However, it was advanced to 21h00 on weekday evenings. Why does the hon. member for Hillbrow not mention these things? I now wish to ask the hon. member for Hillbrow two questions. When he said these things to the Citizen … I do not wish to accuse the hon. member. All I want is that he should reply to my questions. Did he do these things deliberately and with malice aforethought? That is my first question to him. Or did he perhaps simply not think, and make somewhat unwise statements? Which of the two is correct? Was he being malicious or wilful? [Interjections.] Was the hon. member being vicious or wilful—yes or no?

I shall reply during the Third Reading debate.

It seems to me as if the hon. member does not wish to reply now. I shall take it that it was not malicious. I think the hon. member was a little unwise. If that is so, I ask him to go and read Ecclesiastes 10, verse 13, this evening. In case the hon. member does not know Ecclesiastes 10, verse 13, I want to quote it to him. It reads as follows: “The beginning of the words of his mouth is foolishness; and the end of his talk is mischievous madness.”

Since there has been such major growth and progress in South Africa as far as the Post Office is concerned, we must note—and the hon. member mentioned this—that the revenue of the Post Office has increased this year from R1 09 million to R1 133 million. It is this staff, it is this department, it is these officials who are supposedly so unqualified and incapable that there was chaos in the department, it is these same people who did this work that he decries in public in The Citizen. The hon. member still had the temerity to come and tell us that the revenue of the Post Office had increased by a mere 3,9%, despite having fewer staff, fewer trained people, whom he accuses of I don’t know what. Why could the hon. member not spell these things out and tell the world that the officials of the Post Office render such a good service to the people of South Africa? In contrast to this, Sir, expenditure dropped. The hon. member mentioned this himself. It dropped from R961 million to R957 million. That is 1,5%. That is a brilliant achievement. I want to say to the hon. member that as far as this budget is concerned, I am really sorry for the hon. member. He comes along now with this laughable amendment. If he had wanted to act wisely, he should have praised the staff of the Post Office and told them: “Carry on in this way.” Then he would have had us in difficulties. If a man is stupid, Sir, one cannot make him clever. There is no doubt about that. I really pity the hon. member.

What is the significance of the Post Office to South Africa? Let us discuss this idea for a moment. The hon. member did mention a few things, and I am grateful for that. I do not wish only to criticise the hon. member, but I want to tell him that whereas he has now mentioned a few positive things, he should try to elaborate on them in August and try to act more positively. This Post Office, with all its various facets, is of incalculable value to South Africa, not only locally, but also internationally. It is said of transport in South Africa that one can produce and one can make what one wishes, but if one does not have the transport, then one has had it. The same is true of the Post Office. If one has no telecommunications services, telephone services, postal services and telex services, and if one cannot send telegrams, then one can do nothing. I want to say that the services of the Post Office affect everyone in South Africa. Just consider the man or a woman sitting alone in a small flat. They are feeling lonely and forsaken and they no longer have people surrounding them. They receive a Christmas card or a letter from their people far away. Just think of the joy and the happiness it brings them.

Consider, too, the radio and television services. The Post Office has played its part in this field as well. The Post Office is a very large-scale employer in the country. Just think of all the people who are employed in the Post Office, White and non-White. The Post Office is also a very important purchaser of material and so on. This is also the case as far as the building industry is concerned. In this regard we want to convey our sincere thanks to the hon. the Minister for the housing schemes he has announced. This means a great deal to the people of the Post Office. We could also call to mind the Railways, and the revenue they derive from the mail they transport for the Post Office. What about the businessmen of South Africa? The hon. member has said that the hon. the Minister should announce the increase in the tariffs, because according to that hon. member, if there is a small increase, those people will ostensibly go bankrupt. Sir, last year the revenue of the postal services totalled R1 09 million. Even if the postal tariffs were to be increased by 100%, no one in South Africa would go bankrupt, as that hon. member tries to make out. Sir, I repeat that the Post Office and its staff render an exceptional service. They are not out to make a profit. They render good service to South Africa, and this brings contentment, happiness and prosperity. For that we owe them a profound debt of thanks.

The hon. member mentioned that there has been such a substantial decrease in the number of staff. My colleagues on this side will elaborate on this aspect further. I just wish to refer the hon. member to the 1979-’80 Post Office report. Apparently the hon. member has not read it. According to this report the number of White employees was 44 466. This number has dropped to 43 989. This was only a small drop. As far as the non-White staff were concerned, the number was 29 354 in 1979 and their numbers increased to 30 489. The total number of employees was 73 820 in 1979 and that number increased to 74 398 in 1980. This increase was not very great. However, what has happened since? Revenue has increased, better services have been rendered and the productivity of the officials was increased. I think it is a shame that these poor officials, who are not present and cannot defend themselves, are being disparaged in the public Press in this way. The officials of the Post Office—and I am not ashamed to say this, because it is true and I made a point of saying so wherever I go—are among the few people who came forward voluntarily in the days when we wanted to combat inflation. Without any compensation they worked overtime to assist the State and the private sector to combat inflation. After all, that is a praiseworthy thing to do. Then, too, just look at what happened on the occasion of the flood disaster. The hon. the Minister has already drawn attention to this. These are people who, according to the hon. member, earn meagre salaries. I say that as long as it can be afforded, their salaries can be improved. Nevertheless, they gave R125 000 for the Flood Disaster Fund. The only disaster which has struck the officials of the Post Office is the statement he handed to the newspapers the other day when the report appeared.

I do not want to dwell on this for too long, but the hon. member asked a number of questions. The hon. member for Houghton also put a few questions. It seems to me they think there are only non-Whites in South Africa. I find the type of question they always ask, very interesting. The answer to that question asked on 9 February, concerning how many new telephones were installed in the 1979-’80 financial year, was 591 326. Is that a minor or a gigantic achievement? The hon. member for Hillbrow will surely concede to me that it is a gigantic achievement.

On the same day, however, the hon. member asked a further question. He wanted to know what the situation was in Soweto. He received a reply to his question, but why did he not publicize that answer today? In Soweto alone, 5 449 telephones were installed for private use and 701 for use by business enterprises, in spite of all the problems that exist.

The hon. member and his entire party, including the hon. member for Houghton, must refrain from always thinking exclusively along leftist lines. The NP walks a straight path with South Africa. [Interjections.] We render service to both sides. We do not simply keep moving left.

Why do you not join the HNP?

Finally, if I am to say anything about the leftist ideas we remark among hon. members of the official Opposition, I urge them to look again at Ecclesiastes 10 this evening, particularly verse 2. I think I must quote what appears in verse 2—

Let us rather walk a straight path. We are grateful for a good Post Office budget. We are proud of the officials. I hope that the next time we conduct a budget debate, the hon. member for Hillbrow will sound a positive note before the budget is discussed. He must not run to the Press again and make such statements as he did on this occasion.

Mr. Speaker, before I proceed to discuss the budget I should very much like, on behalf of this party, to welcome the new Postmaster-General, Mr. Henry Bester, into the box, if I may call it that. Mr. Bester joins a line of Postmaster-Generals who can be taken to be either English-speaking South Africans or “ware Afrikaners”—we really do not know whether he is Afrikaans-speaking or English-speaking—because before Mr. Bester we had Mr. Louis Rive who could also be taken to be one or t’other. I wonder if I may, through you, Sir, tell Mr. Bester a little story regarding a very well-known postmaster who later became a regional director in Natal. Mr. Oliver Nicholls, who used to tell us that when he first joined the Post Office in the Free State and stood behind the counter, ou Oom Piet came into the post office.

*Oom Piet asked him: “Young man, and what is your name?” He replied: “My name is Oliver Nicholls, omie.” “Oh well, that is all right.” The old man left, but came back a few days later. He walked in and said: “Man, I have forgotten your name. What did you say your name was?” “Oliver Nicholls.” The old man simply could not remember the name. The next week he came back and said: “Young man, I have forgotten again. What is your name?” “Oliver Nicholls”. The old man then said: “Look you can forget about that. As from today you are Niklaas Olivier.” [Interjections.]

†I would like to congratulate the Post Office staff on the magnificent donation of R125 000 which was handed over on their behalf by the Postmaster-General to Dr. Johan de Beer either yesterday or the day before. This is something that demonstrates a well-motivated team of employees. It is the biggest single donation that has been given to the relief fund and possibly this came about because the Post Office was also affected very sadly through the loss at Laingsburg of its Postmaster and his family in these floods. We associate ourselves with the sadness that must be felt by all because of this unfortunate loss.

Mr. Speaker, what can we call this budget? I submit that we can only call it a good news budget, and I sincerely hope that we will not see a bad news budget later this year because the main budget is yet to come. But to give credit where credit is due, I believe that this is going to be a very popular budget. Whether it is going to be popular in the long term again remains to be seen. This depends entirely upon what happens in September.

I am sure that a lot of people must be feeling tremendously enthusiastic about this budget. I believe that enthusiasm is a wonderful quality but, unfortunately, it is one of those qualities that somebody, somewhere along the line dampens, and I make no apologies if I dampen it by asking the hon. the Minister whether he is entirely satisfied that the existing tariffs are not rather high. Do we not have a situation here where tariffs were increased somewhat beyond the percentage that was necessary and that as a result more than an adequate benefit is being reaped at the moment? I raise this point because it is a situation that must be guarded against very carefully. When one is running a business such as the Post Office there is the tendency or the desire to ensure that the books will balance at the end of the year, and there is always the possibility that one may overreach oneself to the detriment of the taxpayer.

We are very pleased that there is no tariff increase, and this proves to us that good management techniques will always achieve good results. It also proves that since the Post Office was placed on a business footing it has gone from strength to strength. This raises a question—why? If this can be done in the case of the Post Office, why cannot it be done in the case of all other Government departments? We have just had the Railways part appropriation. Why cannot this sort of thing be done in other departments? I am sad to see that the other Ministers are not here today because I believe that the Post Office has set a standard and an example that other Ministers would do well to study and to learn from. I think the techniques, methods and skills practised by the Post Office should be or could be adapted and applied to other departments as well.

We on these benches, including my leader the hon. member for Durban Point, have advocated over a long period of time that the Post Office has to be run as a business, along business lines. The results of following this advice, of doing just that, have proved that that policy is a winner. It also says much for the staff and the management of the Post Office that they accepted the challenge of putting this venture on a sound business footing. They accepted the challenge and they have produced the results. Enough of that.

I should now like to turn my attention to the telephone situation. The rental is more realistic at R3 per month—I acknowledge that—but I think the taxpayers of South Africa would have been quite happy to have had the level maintained at R3,50 per month if consideration could have been given to special facilities for the aged. I feel sure that this could have been done. It is very easy to ascertain whether or not a person is a pensioner because he carries a pension card. There are many people enjoying pension benefits who can ill afford yet so badly need a telephone. I believe that we should consider charging them a nominal installation fee, e.g. R10, and a rental of R1 per month. I feel, quite seriously, that every South African would have been happy to continue paying R3,50 in order to subsidize a scheme of that nature. So I make an appeal to my fellow South Africans and the hon. the Minister. Let us consider doing this. Let us give our senior citizens, the people who need the comfort of a telephone at their elbows, that comfort.

Many of them are bedridden.

As my hon. leader says, many of them are bedridden. I do not think there is an hon. member in this House who does not appreciate the comfort of a telephone. It is a very comforting thing to have in one’s home. It gives one a feeling of security.

We are expected to provide ¼ million services this year, at least according to what the hon. the Minister told us this afternoon. I am sad to find, however, that the backlog “bogey” is creeping in once again. I believe that we must make every effort to contain this “bogey”. We must make every effort to meet the demand as soon as possible. Let me issue the warning—if I may use that expression—that whilst applications are increasing, the backlog is increasing pro rata. We must not, however, go back to the sad years that we all remember. That seems to be only the other day, although I will concede that it was 10 or 15 years ago.

The fact is that there may be a long waiting list but that applicants are supplied with telephones in a week or two.

I concede that point but we must meet the demand. I note that the majority of those waiting for telephones are Black. I must say that that is not a happy situation either. We do not want a situation that makes it possible for the accusation to be levelled at South Africa that it is the Black man who has to wait for a telephone whilst the White man gets his telephone. We do not want to see that happening. So we must do everything possible to avoid it. I concede that tremendous progress has been made in the field of automation. I look forward particularly to the day when party lines are no more than a bad dream and everyone is on direct dialling because I believe that the party fine is the scourge of communications. It is the most impossible and antiquated of systems. To me it is a great sadness that we still have this system. I have made many appeals about this on behalf of my constituency which is the home of the sugar industry. I am indeed grateful for the attention that has been given to my constituency in this connection but there are many other areas in South Africa in which party lines are—if I may say so—rampant. That system actually belongs in the ark.

Pushbutton telephones are coming in. This is a tremendous improvement. The hon. the Minister did not mention this in his Second Reading speech but I would be interested to know more about it. I hope that what I am going to say is indeed true. I understand that the pushbutton telephone is to have a built-in memory module. This would enable one—if I may use this terminology—to punch out the number one wants. By then just pressing the memory button the number can be redialled.

I shall show it to you tomorrow.

Thank you. The Post Office is keeping pace with developments in modern-day technology. There are new dimensions in the field of electronics opening up daily and it is gratifying to see that we are keeping a watchful eye on these developments and updating our equipment all the time. It was with particular interest that I listened to the hon. the Minister’s remarks about the video conference service. I took the liberty of examining some of this equipment on a recent visit overseas. I must say, it is very impressive indeed. I think it is a happy moment for the hon. the Minister of Transport Affairs in that he introduced his part appropriation before the hon. the Minister of Posts and Telecommunications had a bite because I do not think the hon. the Minister of Transport Affairs would have liked the hon. the Minister of Posts and Telecommunications’ slogan: “Do not travel but dial and save time and expense.” I think this development will be a shot in the eye for the hon. the Minister of Transport Affairs because it will save many businessmen a lot of time and money as far as travelling is concerned.

But he is charging me 20% more.

I thought there would be something like that. Sir, the telefax service could be a great boon to the businessmen of South Africa. As I have said, I have seen it; it is a very interesting development in electronics and something which enables people virtually to sit around a table in four or five centres around the country and conduct what would amount to a board meeting with other people 1 000 miles away.

Sir, our international telephone service is basically a good one but we do experience difficulties with the telex services. The hon. the Minister referred to this, therefore he is obviously aware of the fact that international telex communication is far from perfect. As I said, I cannot criticize the international telephone service but I do feel that the telex service definitely needs urgent attention.

I should now like to turn to the section on vehicles in the 1979-’80 report. This section reveals some very interesting figures that I would like the hon. the Minister to comment on as I feel that these figures should be investigated and they certainly do warrant discussion. I notice that although the number of Post Office vehicles increased by 1 121, the distance travelled by these vehicles decreased by 13,6 million km, which is a tremendous distance. Fuel consumption for these vehicles decreased by 3,4 million litres and fuel consumption has been improved from 18,4 litres per 100 km to 17,66 litres per 100 km. I now want to ask: Why in heaven’s name do we need the extra 1 121 vehicles? I cannot quite see . . .

I shall reply to that.

I would like to hear some comment on this because obviously 1 121 vehicles represent an enormous capital outlay. I find it quite amazing that we embark on this capital outlay with a reverse effect at the other end of the scale.

I should like now to deal with a few matters in regard to staff. I think the staff are deserving of congratulation on a job well done. They are generally very well motivated and, I must say, I believe there is a noticeable improvement in the morale of the staff. I must also comment on the fact that the removal of separate entrances and counter facilities for different race groups has been well handled and well accepted by both the staff and the public wherever I have gone, with the possible exception of Vryheid.

No, it was Newcastle.

I am sorry, Newcastle. My apologies to Vryheid. We seem to have a little difficulty in that particular area.

Sir, I want to suggest a plan to improve efficiency and productivity. It involves the spending of a large slice of the surplus of approximately R116 million that the hon. the Minister has achieved. I believe that if the hon. the Minister agrees with my plan it will mean an investment in greater efficiency and productivity and staff contentment. It will make for a very much happier staff.

I submit to the hon. the Minister that the time is past midnight for air-conditioning in post offices. When one goes into post offices, particularly in the hotter areas of South Africa and one sees the conditions under which the staff work, I believe serious consideration must be given to this matter. I really feel that this is something that should be done. After all, businesses and small shops of the nature and size of the average suburban post office are air-conditioned quite successfully and their doors are still open to the public. I see no reason why this cannot be done.

I believe we have now finished with the niceties. I should now like to turn my attention to the postal services. This is the problem area and the one that compels us to move an amendment. I say it is a problem area because there is a tremendous amount of dissatisfaction both in the private sector and in commerce and industry in respect of mail movement. The mail service is in no way keeping pace with South Africa’s economic development. The rates were increased recently and we sincerely hoped that with those increases we would see a noticeable improvement in services but unfortunately the increase was not accompanied by such an improvement.

I should like to examine the growth in the mass of mail handled over the past five years. On page 70 of the report we are given the relevant figures. Without going into too much detail, let me say that the total number of postal articles handled in 1975-’76, to commence there, was 1,51 million. In the following year it was 1,55 million, in 1977-’78 it was 1,58 million, then 1,7 million and finally 1,78 million. These are not appreciable increases over the five-year period. These are not increases commensurate with increases we have seen in other spheres in our economy. However, the increased tariff was appreciable. Broadly speaking, the tariff was increased from 3 cents and 4 cents to 5 cents across the board, which is an appreciable increase. We were told at the time when the tariff increases came into effect that all mail would in future be carried by air but we have not seen an increase in the rate at which the mail is delivered.

Locally delivered mail is appallingly slow. Reports from outlying post offices indicate to us—I have not gone into this in detail— that mail is put into bags. It is sent into the city and put through the automatic mailsorting process and then it might come straight past the original post office and go to one or two post offices further along the line. This takes days. I believe that that is automation gone wrong. I sincerely believe that this is something we shall have to look into because our mail service—and I do not want to use adjectives that I shall regret—is definitely far from the sort of standard we deserve in this country.

Why not “sloppy”?

If I wanted to call it sloppy, I would have done so—make no mistake. I can promise that hon. member that I would.

As regards delays in the mail service, I want to say that we have a problem with insufficient postage articles in connection with which until recently we had the “honour system”. Obviously the “honour system” did not work. It did not work because people would not go to the post office and would not place a stamp on the little card and put it in the mail. However, I submit that what we are doing at the moment is costing more. The article is kept at a post office, an advice is sent out to the customer or client, the person to whom it is mailed, and that person then has to go to the post office to collect that item of mail. The delays are alarming. I do not think that this is a step in the right direction and I wonder if the hon. the Minister would not consider reintroducing the honour system. However, while I am on this point, we also have a problem with delays that are incurred when we have an article which is posted and which is not standard. I have an envelope here that was posted as a non-standard item. It is addressed to somebody we all know, namely, the former Senator W. T. Webber, and has a stamp on it which says nonstandard size and surcharge due 4 cents. This letter was posted in Durban on 6 November and it reached him in Hillcrest on 22 November 1980. It therefore took 16 days to reach him over a distance of 30 km. If this envelope is non-standard, I would like to know what the envelope is that the private secretary of the hon. the Minister delivered to me this morning.

By hand.

Yes, by hand but it is exactly the same size as I use when I post a letter. I have another envelope here addressed to me which is also non-standard on which I paid my 10 cents tax because it contained a Christmas card. I am not going to embarrass the gentleman who sent it as he is a very well-known figure. That is exactly the same sized envelope as those which contained Christmas cards sent to me by Ministers at Christmas last year. Identical. Their cards were not franked and did not have a stamp. They were sent postage-free. I therefore did not have to pay any tax on them. But this gentleman who is in the employ of the State—I will happily furnish the hon. the Minister with his name—put a stamp on his and I had to pay the surcharge. The sheer joy of receiving a card from this individual more than outweighed the discomfort that I felt. I can go on like this if the hon. the Minister wants me to.

Why did you not approach your Postmaster or your Regional Director first?

I want to tell the hon. the Minister about his postal service. I want to show him an express envelope which has not got a franking mark on it anywhere but it came through the express mail and it was delivered to me at home. The next day I received an identical one from exactly the same source which contained identical documents but it was full of franking marks. I feel a bit like that American chap on television who did those magician’s tricks. It is the most incredible thing that I have ever come across.

Sir, there is something sadly lacking in our postal service and we must do something to correct the situation. I therefore move as a further amendment—

Mr. Speaker, I found it interesting to listen to the hon. member for Umhlanga and to hear him complaining to the hon. the Minister of Posts and Telecommunications this afternoon about a letter which was not of standard size. Sir, I experienced the same problems in Boksburg during the Christmas period, but I approached my Postmaster and discussed the matter with him and he solved the problem. I do not believe that this is the type of thing one ought to take to an hon. Minister. If one wants to do so, one should shoulder the blame oneself if one is not such an effective MP. His little party is dwindling to such an extent that I believe that on 30 April someone is going to pack them away in a cupboard, for all of them are there in the vicinity of Durban, and then we can simply export them. The hon. member went further and tried to go one better than the PFP’s amendment. The PFP moved an amendment calling for a tariff increase to be postponed. He knows his little party is small and that they may have an outside chance against the PFP and he says: “No, we must reduce the tariff slightly.” To me that is typical of that small party which may no longer be in this House after 29 April.

But I have not yet finished with the Opposition and I still want to refer to the amendment of the hon. member for Hillbrow. The hon. member for Sunnyside has already referred to part of it. However, I find it interesting that this man is prepared to let South Africa wait for its Post Office budget to be approved. Firstly, he says, they refused to agree to it unless and until the Minister embarks on an intensive recruiting and training programme for all races. One can see that the man knows nothing about this technical department.

Order! Which man are you referring to?

I apologize. I mean the hon. member. This hon. member knows nothing about the technical department we are dealing with. The technicians who work in this department are not trained so rapidly that one can get them to solve all the problems so that we may pass this budget. Consequently I think it is outrageous of him to move such an amendment. He went on to say that the Bill should not be passed before the Minister projects and proposes a three-year plan for the development and progress of the Department of Posts and Telecommunications. During the past 10 years we have seen how this department has progressed and how it has put South Africa first as far as its planning is concerned. They themselves admitted to this a while later. But I am not going to pay any further attention to them.

Last year the hon. the Minister came here with a small flower in his lapel. This afternoon he could have come in here with a sunflower, for he has reason to be proud of the department of which he is the political head. It has struck me during the two years that I have sat here listening to the debates that the budgets are always compiled in such a way that the Opposition, too, had no alternative but to pay tribute to the hon. the Minister, as the hon. member for Umhlanga has just done. I predict that the budget which the hon. the Minister submitted here this afternoon will be accepted throughout South Africa with joy and pride. I have no doubt that the Posts and Telecommunications staff are intent upon constantly improving the quality of their service to South Africa. We notice this year after year. Like the giant antennae at the Hartebeeshoek satellite earth station, they are still attuned to the stars and their motto is still the motto which the former Postmaster-General, Mr. Louis Rive, left with them: “The sky is the limit.” The restoration of this department by Mr. Louis Rive has been extended and continued by Mr. Henry Bester and his able management. On behalf of my constituency I want to congratulate them most sincerely on the fine annual report and the excellent budget they have placed in the hands of the hon. the Minister.

Because I am a newcomer to this House, I took the trouble of paging through the Post Office budgets of the past 10 years, specifically to ascertain how this one compares with the previous budgets. To maintain such a record attests to managerial acumen of which the private sector can be jealous. The fact that it was possible to improve on all the previous budgets cannot be put down to coincidence. I believe it can only be put down to dedication. Last year the hon. the Deputy Minister of Finance and of Industries, Commerce and Tourism analysed the Post Office’s financial annals comprehensively. Accordingly I am not going to elaborate on them further. However, here and there I do want to single out something from the latest annual report, which I should like to focus on here today as it has particularly impressed me as a technically trained person. I believe that it is our duty today to place the Post Office where South Africa may see its light shining.

In the first place it was not necessary for the hon. the Minister to come to this House once again with an additional appropriation. This is proof of the conscientiousness with which the management of the Post Office compiles its budget year after year and submits it to the hon. the Minister who may then confidently introduce it in this House in the knowledge that it will not be exceeded without good reason. Furthermore, this budget reflects the clarion call of the hon. the Minister of Finance to South Africa to grow with financial discipline. The budget and the annual report are a model of conscientious discipline, a key requirement for a department which seeks to continue to grow from strength.

The second matter I want to deal with is the dedication with which the Post Office has served South Africa. I am not the first speaker to refer to that, but I believe that we cannot refer to it often enough. We must continue to talk about these people who are so dedicated to their calling. On two occasions this year the staff of the Post Office demonstrated their loyalty to the hon. the Minister, to the Postmaster-General and to South Africa. In the first instance the test came when the Yeoville post office burnt down. The second test came with the flood disaster in the Karoo. On both these occasions the staff of the Post Office demonstrated that South Africa need not be concerned that its communication channels will sustain damage in times of emergency. They worked day and night to repair those channels in the shortest possible time. That is what we could have expected from them. After all, they are people who always answer the call of South Africa. Not only were they in the frontline as regards repair work—as the hon. the Minister has already described to us—but they also launched a major fund-raising campaign to give those South Africans who were hard-hit by the flood disaster, courage to carry on with the work of reconstruction they are engaged in in South Africa.

The third highlight from the annual report which I want to hold up to hon. members and to South Africa, comes from the financial report, on page 19. Here the Postmaster-General refers to the fact that 60,1% of the capital programme was financed from internal resources, as opposed to 45,7% the previous year. This is further confirmation of the fact that the Post Office is being run on a business footing.

The fourth highlight in the annual report is an indication of the acumen of the officials. We find this in the column of statistics on page 6 of the annual report. The total revenue grew by 19,26%, while the total operating expenditure rose by a mere 14,5%. In contrast, the total number of staff also increased by a minimal 3,5%. This figure includes temporary staff.

Consequently it may justly be said that the productivity of the Post Office has increased over the past year. I have no doubt about that. Nor can one page through the annual report without noticing the 36,5% growth in the utilization of data modems. This is an indication of the degree of refinement South Africa is capable of. This growth means new employment opportunities in a new sphere for which South Africans can only be grateful. All the data modems being utilized by the Post Office at present are manufactured in South Africa. When reading the statistics on that page, one comes to the conclusion that South Africans who qualify in the electronics world, will in future be in a position to make important contributions to the growth of our country, thanks to the growth of the Post Office. The growth of posts and telecommunications services means that we may expect tremendous growth in the electronics industries in South Africa. Therefore it is gratifying that the department has concluded long-term contracts of 15 years with its traditional suppliers. Ties with our trading partners which are strengthened in this way make it more difficult for them to participate in boycotts or to respond to calls for boycotts. This, I believe, is to our advantage.

I am sure that the next matter I want to bring to the attention of the House is one which fills the hon. member for Sea Point with great joy. During the financial year 44 000 new telephones were installed in South Africa, 21% more than last year. Telecommunications links with foreign countries have increased by 17%. The only disadvantage I can see in this is that the official Opposition is being afforded better communications with its foreign wing. [Interjections.]

I believe that Post Office equipment manufacturers are taking cognizance with gratitude of the hon. the Minister’s policy of putting South Africa first. On page 27 reference is made to the decrease of 4,7% in respect of imported material. For this reason I want to appeal to the manufacturing sector to train its officials itself. Where there are no training facilities I want to advocate that they should send their people overseas for training to enable them to improve their local quality and to increase their capacity even further. We do not as yet have in South Africa all the technological training centres where such people may be trained. If countries such as Pakistan and India are able to send their people to England for training, the manufacturers in South Africa, too, could consider this possibility.

I believe that the Post Office would gladly make increasing use of locally manufactured equipment, and we who represent constituencies on the East Rand and in Pretoria know what this would mean in terms of employment opportunities in our part of the country.

I commenced my speech by referring to the loyalty of the posts and telecommunications worker towards South Africa and accordingly I cannot refrain from drawing the attention of South Africans to the way in which the department has reacted to the appeal made by the Minister of Mineral and Energy Affairs to save fuel. Despite the phenomenal growth reflected in the report, these officials have succeeded in reducing their fuel consumption without this having a detrimental effect on their services.

Furthermore, as the hon. the Minister mentioned in his speech, they gave attention to another precious commodity—South Africa’s shortage of trained manpower—and they are trying to utilize their manpower more effectively at various levels. The hon. the Minister referred to a number of cases in this regard and accordingly I just want to elucidate one of them. At present it takes two manhours per telephone per annum to attend to the maintenance of the old—I do not want to say obsolete—electromechanical local exchanges that are being phased out, but the new digital exchanges require only 0,5 manhours per telephone per annum.

I want to bring to the hon. the Minister’s attention a matter which is a cause of concern to me. The East Rand, and Boksburg in particular, is growing at a tremendous rate. Consequently the extraordinary growth we are experiencing there is resulting in housing shortages. Since major employers—there are a number of them on the East Rand—as well as the State are buying up existing houses and flats for their workers, there is now demand inflation for housing and we are experiencing something of an acute housing shortage. If the department wants to meet its own requirements, I believe it, too, will have to buy existing dwelling units for its officials, and in the short term it will certainly have to solve its problem in the same way. That is the only solution—we shall have to pay the high prices for that housing if it becomes necessary. However, I want to suggest that the Post Office should as far as possible concentrate on building houses and flat complexes for its officials. This will prevent the eviction of tenants living in existing flats and houses when Government bodies buy up blocks of flats for their own employees. This will be one way in which the Post Office can contribute towards keeping down John Citizen’s housing costs and at the same time curbing inflation.

Finally, I want to thank the hon. the Minister and the Postmaster-General for the extensions of the posts and telecommunications services which have already been installed in Boksburg and for those which are still being envisaged. I am not going to take up the time of the House at this point by elaborating on that, but I shall inform my constituency in that regard. I can assure the hon. the Minister that we shall not use those facilities, as the hon. member for Sandton does, to address letters to the New York Times and Punch. Nor shall we use them in the same way as the hon. member for Houghton, who allowed her postbox to be abused. We shall not use those telephones to contact the McHenry’s. We shall use all the facilities in Boksburg to afford the drum majorettes of the St. Dominic Convent another opportunity to become world champions, and Gerrie Coetzee another opportunity to become world boxing champion. We shall use them to make the East Rand the greatest industrial centre in Africa.

Mr. Speaker, I think the hon. member for Boksburg delivered his extracts from the annual report very well. It is a pity that he interspersed them with somewhat unsubstantiated remarks concerning a few of my colleagues in these benches. Had he not done that, his speech actually would have been a very good rendering of the annual report. I have, however, a certain fondness for the hon. member, because I like the success the young girls of Boksburg achieved whilst overseas, and I hope that the boxing talent in his constituency will be more successful at the next endeavour than he might even be in his political career in the future.

I have a specific topic about which I should like to speak today. It is non-political and relates particularly to an incident which is referred to in both the hon. the Minister’s speech and in the annual report. I refer to the fire at the Yeoville post office. I want to say immediately that I believe that that fire had a significance beyond just the event itself, because I think it demonstrated a variety of things. Firstly, while the fire was still smouldering and water was still pouring from the place, the senior officials of this department—not just the junior officials or the men whose job it was—were there. I think their only complaint might perhaps have been that the politician was there before them. But nevertheless they were there; they were on the job and they attended to it themselves. And I think that it is most laudable that a department sees to it that it sets an example in respect of a problem that arises. From the moment that the fire was brought under control and while the officials were present, the whole effort was one of co-operation and a wonderful example of what could be done in an emergency. I want therefore to single out this occurrence to demonstrate what can be done.

The scene of the fire was an old building where renovations were under way. The resources of the department were being poured into it but, above all, there was planning as to what should be done in order to bring about emergency services. This was followed by events which, in my view still today, is highly impressive. People were working in the middle of the night with giant cranes loading the mobile exchanges and putting them into position in the streets. In the meantime the streets were blocked in order to ensure that the mobile exchanges could be left there. There was also a great deal of understanding displayed because their first consideration was who needed telephones first, where the emergency services were to be set up and how the situation could be dealt with in an effective manner. Whatever the problems behind the scenes may have been, to the outsider the planning that went into the operation was certainly impressive. I went along daily to see the progress of the work, and there one saw South Africans of all races—let me make it quite clear that there were White people, Black people, Brown people and Asians— working side by side, putting in effort on a 24-hour basis, in order to see to it that service was restored to the community. I was, to say the very least, impressed by the effort. I watched each step of the progress and I thought that if the people of South Africa as a whole could have seen how things were being done they would have been able to see how, in fact, all people can work together when there is a state of emergency. I have no hesitation in saying that I would like to pay tribute to every one of the people who worked there, from the head of the department to the lowliest of workers. The degree of co-operation that went into that operation was, to my mind, outstanding. There is no question about that.

Let me talk about some of the other things that resulted from that. One of the things that was evident was how dependent people have become on the telephone in their ordinary lives. Without a telephone, what does one do when someone is ill, when one needs a doctor in an emergency, when a baby is about to be bom or when somebody has a heart attack? The telephone has come to play such an important role in our community that it is, in actual fact, very difficult to over-estimate that role. I think that is one of the first things that was evident.

The second thing I observed was really a lesson to me. I am referring not only to the way in which the department reacted but also to the community spirit that was engendered in Yeoville and the surrounding suburbs. It is unbelievable how people rallied and came to one another’s aid, how people suddenly found that they had common interests and how people who might normally be living their individual competitive lives suddenly rallied in a spirit of co-operation. This gave me hope that in South Africa we can work together and that, in effect, when we are under pressure we are people who can pull together. I was impressed by the fact that people who are normally only set on pursuing their own interests, sometimes perhaps a little selfishly, do come to one another’s aid in times of emergency and help one another.

Thirdly, a factor we have to bear in mind is that our telephone system is to some extent vulnerable. One only has to look at the effort that went into the Yeoville operation. I must therefore tell the hon. the Minister that I hope he has plans for dealing with the possibility of more than one incident of this kind occurring. I do not want to enlarge on that. I think he knows what I am talking about. I think it is very important to see to it that our vulnerability is given the fullest consideration and that our replacement service is adequate, because our vulnerability could be exploited by people who are not well-disposed towards us. I think that is one of the lessons we can learn from this.

There is another matter I should like to touch on. It was referred to by the hon. the Minister, and is also mentioned in the report. I am referring to the question of citizen band radios. One of the interesting phenomena of this incident in Yeoville was the fact that an organization known as React came forward spontaneously. There were people living in Yeoville itself who belonged to the organization, and they spontaneously provided a service to the community. They did so freely and willingly. What they did was to station their cars, with their CB-radio facilities, at various points in the constituency and provide a service to the community. If, for example, there was a dear old lady living in a certain flat whose children were worried about her, the CB-radio operators provided a means of communication with her. Not only did they provide a means of communication but I think they were also responsible for saving many lives. They were responsible for seeing to it that, in the event of an emergency, doctors, ambulances and other services were made available. What is more, elderly people, lonely people, blind people or ill people who needed attention were visited at regular intervals. For example, every three hours a visit would be paid to Mrs. Van der Merwe who is blind, and every two hours a visit would be paid to Mrs. Cohen who had had a coronary. One had the situation of people who, at regular intervals, did this kind of service to the community. There were children, women and elderly people doing this, and I was most impressed by the kind of approach that people like these had to the situation. Where there has been criticism of some of the CB operators, even an antagonist attitude to many of the operators of the almost 80 000 CB sets in South Africa, I want to tell the hon. House that the members of the React organization are a credit to the country, they are public-spirited individuals. If we could use those 80 000 sets in order to provide a community service to South Africa, we would be doing good for the country and we would be employing those CB operators to very great advantage. I want to take this opportunity to state that I believe that, in a time of emergency, there are enough people in South Africa who are prepared to run around, who are public spirited and sound and who will put the interests of other people first. When we talk about the modern world being selfish, about people only wanting to persue their own interests, I want to tell hon. members that the fire in Yeoville demonstrated that South Africans do care about one another.

Mr. Speaker, it is very clear to me that the hon. member for Yeoville does not really belong in that party. On account of the speech he has just made, I believe that if he no longer has a seat here after 29 April, he would make an ideal deputy postmaster-general. The hon. member’s approach today was positive. He showed that he cares for the Yeoville community and I pay tribute to him for that. As for the party to which he belongs, I have a problem, viz.: How can the hon. member vote for the amendment proposed by the hon. member for Hillbrow? I wonder whether the hon. member for Yeoville can agree with what the hon. member for Hillbrow said, particularly his words in The Citizen, to which the hon. member for Sunnyside referred. The title of the report was “Widman shocked by report”.

Furthermore, I wonder whether the hon. member for Yeoville agrees with a report which appeared in the Rand Daily Mail of 11 February under the heading “Post Office crisis”. The report reads—

I do not know where the hon. member for Hillbrow was at that stage—

The report goes on to say—

Sir, does the official Opposition want to tell us that the rot has already set in in the Post Office? Has this occurred on the basis of the budget introduced here today, or the annual report that is before us? Is there rot in the department? I want to know whether the hon. member for Yeoville agrees with that. He is apparently caucussing again over there. The hon. member for Yeoville went further than the amendment which the hon. member for Hillbrow moved on behalf of the official Opposition and asked that an intensive recruitment and training programme for all races be embarked on. But what is the Post Office doing? Is it not engaged in an intensive training programme? Do they want to tell me that only Whites are working for the Post Office? You see, Sir, these people do not know who is working for the Post Office. These people do not know that Indians, Coloureds and Black people are also working for the Post Office and that they are entitled to training and, what is more, are receiving it.

Order! To which people is the hon. member referring? I think the hon. member knows how other hon. members must be addressed.

I apologize, Sir. Let me continue. In its amendment the official Opposition mentions that the wage gap between races must be eliminated. But it is in fact the general policy of this side of the House that the wage gap between races must be eliminated. However, it is all very well to say that the wage gap between races must be eliminated, but it cannot happen overnight. We are narrowing it. What hon. members of the official Opposition forget is that the elimination of the wage gap must go hand in hand with the necessary productivity and training. That is what the Post Office is engaged in. An appeal was made for the Department of Posts and Telecommunications to launch a three year plan of development and progress. I believe all of us realize—and this is indicated in the annual report as well—that millions of people use the telephone every day. However, they do not realize what the real importance of the device is, and that it forms part of an intricate and sophisticated system of communications. I believe that the Post Offices’s slogan for the future should be: “Drive less and ’phone more”.

That is why Bell always wins.

I should also like to associate myself with the good wishes conveyed to Mr. Bester. One judges a person by his words and by whether he is as good as his word. I just want to quote from the preface to the report—

As far as the Vaal Triangle is concerned, I can today attest to the fact that Mr. Bester and his team are already doing their work in that fashion. But we convey our gratitude not only to the Postmaster-General and the Minister, but also to everyone, irrespective of race or colour, who is working for the Post Office of South Africa. It is a difficult and demanding task. We convey our gratitude to every man, every person who does his rounds and is even bitten by dogs while delivering letters.

I believe that we are on the threshold of a phenomenal period as regards the Post Office. Just let me refer in broad outline to the videotex. I believe that hon. members who saw fit to read the annual report will know what I am referring to. It is discussed on page 16. I believe that the videotex is going to play a major role in the economy of South Africa as a whole and that it will do much to facilitate matters in the business world. When one travels abroad and examines this set-up, one realizes what it can mean. By means of the videotex; people in Cape Town are able to conduct an interview with people in Johannesburg. It is possible to exchange information within a few minutes.

There is another outstanding step that was announced when this budget was introduced. I am referring to the improvement and modernization of the Post Office Savings Bank service to the public. On 23 January the department accepted a tender for the supply and installation of electronic equipment which will in due course replace the use of the conventional Savings Bank book. By means of a sophisticated system of terminals a central computer will be set in operation and it will be possible to use plastic cards for the withdrawal of deposits. I call upon the hon. the Minister to publicize this so that the public may realize that the Post Office need not take a back seat to any other financial institution in South Africa.

With reference to the ignorance displayed by the official Opposition, I want to ask the hon. the Minister to afford us the opportunity of undertaking a Post Office tour during the recess so that we may show those members what the inside of a Post Office looks like. Let them too go and examine what a sorting machine looks like, for, judging from their statements thus—apart from those of the hon. member for Yeoville—I believe these people never take the trouble to look up their postmaster or the regional manager of the Post Office to ask what their needs are and whether there are problems in that area. I think that all they do is to sit here trying to make political capital.

You do not know what you are talking about.

I am only grateful that the Opposition does not have a post office savings bank book, for it would be difficult to administer an insolvent estate.

Mr. Speaker, it was a pleasure to listen to the hon. member for Overvaal. He disposed of the Opposition so successfully that not much remains for me to say about them.

I agree with the hon. member for Yeoville that the telephone has become a very important instrument in our present-day society.

But today, I want to talk about the Post Office staff, for the officials have of late been given very modern equipment with which to do their work. The most important section of the Post Office is still the personnel section which has to look after the staff who have to man these instruments. The Post Office fulfills an extremely important role in our society, and other hon. members have referred to the progress which has been made in the postal services. However, I also want to point out another aspect, and that is that the staff need a leader, and that one has to create a team spirit in order to achieve one’s goal.

Before going any further, I want to congratulate the present Postmaster-General, Mr. Bester, on his promotion. I think he is a fantastic choice. He was in my constituency on the occasion of the opening of a post office and from the way he treated the people who work for him, I could see that here was a captain and that the members of his team would follow him. Other members spoke of the unparalleled growth which has taken place in all spheres of the activities of the Post Office. Mention was made of the fact that the fixed assets of the Post Office have grown by 15%, whereas the total revenue has increased by 19%. The Post Office’s operating expenditure has grown by 15%. These figures indicate that important growth has taken place. However, I want to point out that this growth process has resulted in severe pressure of work on the staff, and that this must have been very taxing for them. The growth has exerted tremendous pressure on the department’s manpower and services have had to be rendered under very difficult circumstances. For example, problems are still being experienced in acquiring and retaining staff in the technical and clerical fields in particular. The department spends millions of rands annually on staff training, but unfortunately it does not derive the full benefit from this as a result of staff losses to commerce and industry. I believe that this is a serious problem. The hon. member for Hillbrow pointed out that the resignation rate was very high. However, I want to point out to him that the economic revival we are experiencing at present has meant that it is not only the Post Office that is saddled with this problem. Other departments are encountering the same problem. It is in the national interest that the private sector attend to the training of its own staff and refrain from large-scale poaching of Post Office staff, for this gives rise to serious problems for the Post Office.

The Post Office staff are rendering excellent service, often under the most difficult circumstances. Hon. members referred to the Post Office which burned down in Yeoville and the fact that the staff had restored the telephone service within a very short period of time. Within a few days a considerable section of the service had been restored and some days later a further section was in operation. It was possible to occupy the new post office within six months. This is a very major achievement, one of which the staff of the Post Office can be very proud. Only the dedication of the Post Office staff made this possible. We are also indebted to the entire Post Office staff in the Republic of South Africa for the loyal work they are doing. Someone else pointed out that the Post Office staff as a whole numbers approximately 26 000 and that the remuneration paid to them amounts to something like R228 million. We must bear in mind that the staff render a service throughout the Republic. At times they work under the most difficult circumstances, for example, in the smallest towns and on the worst roads, without a murmur. They are prepared to work long hours if it should prove necessary, and they are also prepared to be generous when their fellow human beings are in difficulties. A proof of this is the fine contribution to the Laingsburg disaster fund. Such a team is a winning team, and a winning team like this needs a good captain. I think they have such a captain in the person of the Postmaster-General. I should also like to dwell briefly on what the Post Office is doing to train its staff. To have good workers, one must be prepared to train them well, and this the Post Office is certainly doing. In order to derive the greatest benefit in the shortest possible time from the recommendations of the committee they appointed to investigate this matter, the new system of semester training was introduced as from January 1980. This will gradually replace the three semester training. As regards more advanced training, there is, for example, the higher diploma, since the introduction of the higher national diploma and the advanced national diploma. As far back as January 1978, 50 of these people obtained the higher diploma. I want to say something about the post-qualification courses as well. In order to keep abreast of the rapid technological development, 65 post-qualification courses were offered to engineers and technical staff during the financial year. These courses are offered at Olifantsfontein and other centres to Post Office staff and representatives of manufacturers. A total of 101 engineers and 575 members of the technical staff have attended these courses.

Recently, eight technicians went to Germany and plans are being made to send another four engineers shortly in order to bring them up to date with developments in that country. In connection with training accommodation I just want to point out that a permanent technical training centre for Blacks has been built at Shoshongwe. It is for the training of apprentice technicians as well as telecommunication apprentices. Fine progress has also been made as regards the planning of hostel accommodation in this regard. Construction work on a new technical training centre for Whites in Milnerton, Cape, is progressing well. Then, too, we have the planning of a new technical training centre at Silverton in Pretoria, which is already at an advanced stage. The possibility of obtaining new premises for a new technical training centre in Bloemfontein is at present being investigated in order to replace the hired premises which are at present in use there.

I also want to say a few words in respect of resignations. During the financial year, as the hon. member for Hillbrow said, 17 204 full-time officials left the service. This represents 22,5% of the total staff establishment and is 2 167 more than last year. The number of permanent White male clerks decreased from 5 756 to 3 413 during the 10 years which ended on 31 March 1980. Since the Post Office serves an extended geographic area, which requires a large measure of staff mobility, an adequate number of male clerks is essential. The clerical division is still the main source of supply for the administrative ranks. Drastic and lasting solutions will have to be found for the position as regards the male staff.

In order to maintain services at a sound level, between 35% and 40% of all posts of clerk in the Post Office should preferably be filled by males. I just want to point out that at present, a mere 27% of these posts are filled by men. Female clerks are readily available, and their services are already being utilized to the optimum degree. There are shortages among the uniformed staff too. However, these shortages are to a large extent being supplemented by other population groups. There are problems as regards the technical staff, too. On 31 March 1980 there was a shortage of approximately 1 440 trained technical telecommunications electricians and mechanics in this section. Staff losses will have to be restricted to a minimum.

An additional abridged orientation course for newcomers was introduced at the beginning of 1980. There are a variety of training courses in the Post Office, one of them being orientation courses. For example, 61 bursaries have been made available for full-time study. 59 bursaries have been made available for part-time study and 429 Post Office students enrolled for the under-and postgraduate study courses during 1979-’80. The bursaries totalled R216 750.

The hon. the Minister will have to give serious attention to the problem of staff losses. As the previous hon. member said, the hon. the Minister will definitely have to consider a housing scheme for Post Office employees. He may also have to investigate the possibility of employing other population groups in greater numbers in the Post Office so that the existing shortages may be made up. The hon. the Minister may also have to give attention to decentralization. On the Witwatersrand in particular there are shortages of staff, which may possibly be readily supplemented from rural areas. This is a problem which requires the attention of the hon. the Minister.

Another matter to which the hon. the Minister will certainly have to give his attention is the alleged dissatisfaction as to the starting salaries of Post Office employees. Under present circumstances of economic revival, the hon. the Minister will definitely have to give attention to this. Another aspect which may also require the hon. the Minister’s attention is the question of a 5-day working week at rural post offices so that employees of those Post Offices— people who perhaps man one-man post offices, or are experiencing staff shortages— may also have a day on which they can attend to their own matters and do shopping. Finally, I want to congratulate the hon. the Minister on his very fine review of Post Office activities, and on the fine teamwork which he and the Postmaster-General have achieved. This is teamwork which involves all the staff members of the Post Office in service of South Africa.

Mr. Speaker, the hon. member for Vryheid covered a very wide field and it will therefore not be possible for me to react to all the aspects he raised. With regard to his comments on staff losses I just wish to point out that I shall also have something to say about that. I find it really heartening to see the hon. member’s enthusiasm. I think he is now probably preparing himself for his election campaign against the HNP. I am therefore gratified to hear that he made the proposal to the hon. the Minister with regard to the increased employment of people of colour in the Post Office. If we can hear something like that from a place such as Vryheid, I believe there may still be hope for South Africa. I should like to turn for a moment to the hon. member for Overvaal, who was also somewhat fiery today. But I do not blame him; he, too, is probably preparing himself for the election. He said, inter alia, that members of the Opposition were not interested in the officials in their constituencies and that they did not even know what the inside of a post office looked like. I do think the hon. the Minister will be able to tell the hon. member that the chairman of the Post Office study group of this party, the hon. member for Umhlanga, goes out of his way to pay certain visits and to observe certain things for himself. As far as Durban is concerned it is a fact—perhaps historical causes are responsible for this—that my party is quite satisfied with the support we get from the officials in the Post Office. They do this spontaneously and of their own free will.

It was mentioned that our telephone services have improved. This is a fact, especially when we think of the chaotic conditions which existed in the past. It is interesting to read that according to a recent finding, Dr. Albert Hertzog was not the person who was responsible for that chaos. It is now conceded that it was the joint responsibility of the Cabinet at that time. One has to admit that our telephone services have improved. However, there is one thing we must recognize: Telephone services in South Africa are expensive. The profit made from that sector as a separate unit is extremely large, because the Post Office makes a large profit, percentagewise, on its own funds to be able to finance itself. We know that the Post Office financed itself during the previous year to the tune of 60%. The fact that the hon. the Minister did not announce a tariff increase today is only natural. It would have come as a tremendous shock to the country had he indeed announced anything of the kind, particularly as the previous tariff increase came into effect only a year ago. As far back as 1971 one of the predecessors of the hon. the Minister specifically stated that tariff increases should take place at least five to ten years apart. In this connection I wish to draw attention to a memorandum on the adjustment of Post Office tariffs as from 1 April 1971. That, then, is the policy which is pursued. I think one should see matters in perspective and note that over the past ten year period it has not been possible for the Post Office to keep their intention to limit the frequency of tariff-increases to at least to a period of five to ten years. We do however accept that the Post Office was faced with abnormal circumstances.

But have you ever considered how much time elapsed between 1975 and 1980?

Yes, but there were also adjustments between 1971 and 1975. The whole point is this: Whereas everybody is so pleased that no tariff increases were announced this year, I just wish to say that I take it that there ought not to be any tariff increases.

†I want to come to the amendment moved by the hon. member for Umhlanga and specifically, to the point that we call on the Government for a more adequate postal service. Apart from the fact that we need this in our expanding economy, I believe that as South Africans are living in one of the richest countries in the world, they are entitled to an adequate and effective postal vote. [Interjections.]

It seems to me as though you need one.

It was merely a slip of the tongue. South Africans are entitled to an adequate and effective postal service. Although there has been an increase in the volume of post handled, it has been a very moderate one. Except for the priority mail system that was introduced a few years ago, there have not really been many innovations to make the service more attractive. In reality there has been a curtailment of services during the past couple of years, for instance there have been fewer pick-up points and more infrequent deliveries in certain areas.

Approximately 12 years ago, as late as 1968-’69, the postal services showed a profit, but in 1971 there was a loss of R11,3 million, and at present the expected loss totals R53 million. This is an increase of virtually 500%. What lesson should we learn from this? The lesson is clearly that the Post Office is fighting a losing battle, and in order to provide an adequate service they will have to accept the fact that they cannot expect and demand the postal service to show a profit on its own but that it has to be subsidized. Should this be brought about, the hon. the Minister will not have to come along and say: “We will have to increase the rates because the postal services are running at a loss”.

*I also wish to refer to the question of staff. As far as that is concerned it is very clear that there are matters which are causing concern. We have already become accustomed to the fact that there is a shortage of technicians and that many of the trained technicians leave the Post Office. From the report, however, it appears that these conditions have now also extended to the administrative and clerical divisions and it is said that this creates a problem for future administration.

†A business undertaking such as the Post Office cannot afford to lose 20% or 25% of its staff year after year without eventually running into trouble when it comes to the management at the top. Private enterprise can purchase management from outside, but this is not the position in regard to the Post Office. Differentiated salary scales may help matters somewhat.

*Finally there is just one last point I want to raise. A former Minister in this portfolio—I think it was Mr. Van der Spuy—once specifically pointed a finger at the South African hotels which were bent on exploiting the public with the high tariffs they charged for telephone calls. However, I think the time has come for the hon. the Minister to make his voice heard as his predecessor did. I have personal experience of a case in a two-star hotel in Johannesburg where I made two telephone calls. The fee for one was 10 cents and for the other, R2,40. However, the standard telephone fee of the hotel was R5,00.

You should report it.

I just want to refer to what the hon. the Minister’s predecessor did. In 1978 or 1979 he made a plea to the hotel industry not to try to make profit from an essential service. I am not accusing the hon. the Minister of anything, but am merely putting a request to him.

You should report such a case immediately.

I shall do so, but in the mean time I should just like to draw the hon. the Minister’s attention to the fact that exploitation is taking place and I think one should not turn a blind eye to it.

I am pleased to support the amendment of the hon. member for Umhlanga.

Mr. Speaker, the hon. member for Durban Central found it very difficult to talk his way around the success of this budget. On the contrary, he mentioned a few very positive aspects. However, the reproach was levelled that the reason why this budget is so good is that it is being introduced just before the election. Surely this is not true and correct. If there were any reason to increase the tariffs, the hon. the Minister would have done so. The Government does not flinch from anything of that nature. The hon. the Minister of Transport Affairs increased railway rates a short while ago, didn’t he? Why, then, should the Post Office not do so too if it is inevitable? So that argument does not hold water. This is a very auspicious budget. What we are very grateful for is that the deficit budgeted for was in fact not so large and that therefore no tariff increases are necessary. What we are also very grateful for is the fact that the staff of the Post Office will also receive the salary increases of the Public Service. Those officials are very good people, people who pull their weight in our community. We share their gratitude at not having been overlooked. They deserve the increases.

I should like to convey my congratulations to the new Postmaster-General, Mr. H. O. Bester, who has not been in that position for very long. He succeeded Mr. Rive, and from the report one can see that Mr. Bester has the whole situation in the Post Office very firmly under control. I should just like to refer to the preface to the report. It says, inter alia—

Then the report goes on to point out some very major progress. Nor does our Postmaster-General hesitate to warn against things which are taking place and which could have a detrimental effect on the Post Office. I am referring to his appeal to the private sector to give attention to the training of personnel. It is a source of concern that so many of the trained staff of the Post Office is enticed away to the private sector. Here I agree with the Postmaster-General. I think the private sector could make a very important contribution in this respect. The training of staff involves very heavy expenditure. The salaries and allowances paid by large firms to the people whom they train, as well as the cost of training requirements, is then deducted for income tax purposes. In other words, it does not cost private enterprise the full and normal amount to train people. They have a very nice uncle who helps them, and that uncle is the hon. the Minister of Finance. He gives them no less than 42% discount on the net profit earned by the companies. Thus it costs them 58% of the normal amount to train their people. I know there are firms which do train people, and we are greatly indebted to those firms, but I want to ask those firms that are not yet doing so whether they could not help us to strengthen the manpower situation in South Africa, especially in the technical field where those men are indeed indispensable. I hope that this praiseworthy and urgen appeal by the Postmaster General, to which the hon. the Minister also referred, has not fallen on deaf ears.

I should like to express my congratulations for what is being done for the Post Office in various fields. I should also like to express my gratitude for the large-scale expansion which has taken place. For example, I see in the report under the heading “National Telecommunication System”—

When one looks at the information under the heading “Automatic Exchange System” one can see how many lines were added to the automatic exchange system. All these things have been done in order to keep pace with the expansion taking place in a growing country such as South Africa, a country which is making rapid progress. It is difficult to understand how services can still be provided so wonderfully well. The services are not static; expansion is taking place. On the one hand, therefore, expansion has to be attended to and on the other, good service has to be ensured. The Post Office has succeeded in doing this brilliantly and for that reason the Government may, with a great deal of pride, thank the hon. the Minister, the Postmaster-General and each member of his staff for providing such an excellent service in this regard, since to expand, and at the same time to ensure that there is no deterioration, sets heavy demands on the officials. These unsung workers have done a lot for South Africa, and greater success is constantly being achieved. One of the fields in which success has been attained, is the computer division of the Post Office, where in the past a lot of manpower was needed to send out telephone accounts. This task has now been greatly simplified. I quote what the report has to say about the system—

If we consider that previously everything was done by individuals, we see how many millions of manhours per annum the Post Office is saving by modernizing important instruments and introducing electronic equipment. This is particularly important in a country such as South Africa where we have a shortage of manpower.

A start is now being made with the building of a post office in Heidelberg, which falls within my constituency, and I cannot but express my gratitude and appreciation to the hon. the Minister for his assistance in this regard. This historic and beautiful town in my constituency has needed a post office for years, and owing to the good offices of the hon. the Minister all the problems which we are aware were experienced by the Transvaal Provincial Administration, have now been ironed out. We know that the planning has now reached a final stage and that the appropriate site for the Post Office has been chosen. It is a central spot which is within easy reach of the aged. Heidelberg is not situated on very level ground; there are many uphills and downhills and that is precisely why the town is so beautiful, but because of the uphills and downhills, certain parts of the town are difficult for pedestrians to negotiate. That site is also within easy reach of the aged, so that they may collect their pensions, and for the businessman it is centrally situated. We hope and trust that the work in this connection will soon progress even more rapidly. I can give the hon. Minister the assurance that the day he comes to open the Post Office at Heidelberg we shall spread all the red carpets we can find for him. We hope it will be soon. I want to thank the hon. the Minister for all the work the Post Office has done there. The hon. the Minister has done so much for the Post Office in South Africa that, as my hon. colleague said, whereas last year the hon. the Minister wore a small flower in his buttonhole, he should now really wear a sunflower. However, I think the hon. the Minister needs an even larger flower for what he has achieved on behalf of all the constituencies in the country. We sincerely thank the hon. the Minister and wish him all of the best for the future.

Mr. Speaker . . . [Interjections.] … the hon. member for Nigel and I have something in common. He has promised to roll out a red carpet for the hon. the Minister on the occasion of the opening of the new post office in his constituency. I want to make the same promise. That is why I say that we have something in common. When the new post office in Port Elizabeth is opened, I shall make sure, like the hon. member for Nigel, that the red carpet is there. What is more, I want to tell the hon. members of the Opposition who made remarks when I rose that I shall still be the representative for Port Elizabeth Central when that happens. [Interjections.]

†I appreciate the difficulties the official Opposition, and the NRP for that matter, have today in criticizing this budget. On the one hand they find themselves having to oppose something because they are in the Opposition while on the other hand we have been presented here with a very good budget. They are therefore faced with a very difficult task. I should know, because I used to sit in the Opposition benches as well. That is why today they have to criticize this budget with their tongues in their cheeks.

Was that your difficulty all along?

It is one of the difficulties the hon. members opposite are experiencing at the present moment.

The hon. member for Hillbrow referred once again to the Stabilization Fund. In The Citizen recently he is reported as having said “I said it before and I say it again.” Well, he has said it again today. I want to ask the hon. member for Hillbrow why he is not a bit more positive. He has moved an amendment here and I am sure Mr. Speaker will allow him to amend his amendment by adding another leg to it. In that he can say he refuses to accept or approve the budget unless the Government decides to add 5% to all postal services so that that 5% can be put into the Stabilization Fund. That will be a positive approach and a positive suggestion.

Why do you not change the formula? You do not have to do anything else if you change the formula.

I am suggesting that the hon. member should be positive and that he or one of his colleagues should propose that 5% be added to all postal services.

One does not have to do that.

Unfortunately the hon. member has been in the municipal service for too long, because there the Stabilization Fund is very popular. He knows, however, that Father Christmas does not come and deposit money in the Stabilization Fund. The people concerned must pay that money. Therefore, whether the tariffs are increased or a certain percentage is paid into the Stabilization Fund, the same people will have to pay in any case. The hon. member is raising this to create the impression that he is Father Christmas and is going to make it so much easier for the people who have to pay. [Interjections.]

*Listening to the budget speech of the hon. the Minister and reading the annual report, one realizes that they tell a story of success and of wonderful service. One comes to the conclusion that the Department of Posts and Telecommunications is functioning very successfully and is also attempting at all times to adapt itself to modern technology. Reading the splendid report which has been mentioned so often today, it is fascinating to see the development which is taking place today and to see what is being done and what may yet be done in the future— everything merely in order to keep increasing the efficiency of the good service we already have. Reading the report, one realizes that this department is going to achieve great things in the future. Now it surprises me that the hon. member for Umhlanga is able to say that the NRP is not going to approve the budget unless the postal service improves. In that case they have not read the report.

But you do agree with that, don’t you?

I do not agree with it at all. The hon. member should read the report to see what is being done in respect of the various items. Let me give a few examples. There is the video-coding of postal articles, for example. This makes me think of the days when the sorting had to be done by hand. Here it is now being envisaged that one of these days, it will be possible to handle 30 000 postal articles within one hour. Is this not an improvement? Then there is the Post Office Savings Bank system. The Post Office Savings Bank is the bank for the poor man, the child and the housewife. The hon. the Minister has explained—and it is set out in the report as well—what will be done in the future with electronic equipment. I need not go into it. Just think of the fact that it will be possible to deposit or withdraw money at 90 post offices merely with the aid of a card. How much more do the services have to improve before the hon. members will be satisfied? Then there is the expansion of our telephone services. We see in the report that South Africa has telephonic links with 193 countries today. Just think: The hon. member for Sea Point is now able to dial 193 different countries.

Mr. Speaker, before business was suspended for supper, I had been pointing out some items in the annual report to indicate that the Department of Posts and Telecommunications is not only abreast of developments, but is even ahead of other countries in an attempt to provide an efficient service.

I wish to mention only one further item, namely the video-conference service. I do not think we all realize the great possibilities this service will hold once it has been introduced. Just think of the number of deputations from our major cities that have to visit Pretoria. Then there are the deputations to our provincial capitals, where municipalities sometimes send four or five people to go and discuss matters of importance in another town. The cost of this is extremely high. Apart from that, the time of these people is precious. Bearing in mind all these factors, one realizes that this service can be of great value because delegates will be able to go to such a centre and to make contact there with the department or provincial administration concerned, whatever the case may be. They will be able to finalize their business within a question of minutes and then continue with their daily task. Where the department is trying to provide facilities of this kind and to provide them in good time, we cannot fail to express our appreciation towards the management and the top officials of the department. We know that the department is in good hands. I want to assure the officials that we are fully confident that they will continue to provide only the best.

I should like to refer to one other matter which is of great importance to me. Mention is made in the report of a milestone which was achieved in April 1980, namely the independence which was attained in the field of buildings. The absolute necessity of functional buildings in order to ensure efficient service can never be sufficiently emphasized. I should like to mention the example of the post office in Port Elizabeth. This is an old building which had to serve as a post office for years and in which the staff provided an excellent service under very difficult circumstances. I should like to avail myself of this opportunity of expressing my appreciation towards these people who have provided an excellent service there in spite of the difficult circumstances.

I thought you were going to get a new post office there.

Keep on thinking.

*Mr. Speaker, the hon. member for Walmer and I myself have requested on several occasions that something be done about that post office. We have asked for a new post office. The Bible says, “Knock and the door shall be opened.” We have asked, and now our request has been granted. I want to thank the hon. the Minister, because after our request during the Post Office budget debate last year the hon. the Minister agreed to pay a visit to that city. He paid the visit, conducted a thorough investigation and showed great sympathy. Last week the hon. the Minister said, in reply to a question, that building operations on the new post office would commence in 1983. On behalf of the staff of the Port Elizabeth post office, I should like to thank the hon. the Minister tonight for the prospect they have of being able to work under modern circumstances within the foreseeable future. I can assure the House that they are looking forward to it. One of them has told me that the tragedy is that by the time the new post office has been completed, he will unfortunately have retired on pension and will therefore not have the privilege of working in the new building. I really pity him. Secondly, I wish to express my thanks on behalf of the public for the fact that they will henceforth be served in a modern post office.

What I actually want to get to is that the hon. the Minister referred in his speech to an inquiry which has already been conducted into the transfer of certain post office functions to the coastal cities. The hon. the Minister rightly said that with the aid of the modern communication systems available to us, it would be possible to exercise efficient control over the various departments that will be located in these coastal cities. I want to agree with that wholeheartedly. I am convinced that the hon. the Minister will certainly think of Port Elizabeth when it comes to the transfer of one or other of the departments to the coastal cities. Especially since a new post office is now going to be built, this is a golden opportunity to provide at the same time for the transfer of such a department. This will hold the great advantage, not only of a bigger post office complex, but also of more people who will be involved in Port Elizabeth, people who will want to go and live there. Perhaps this would help the hon. the Minister and the department to recruit staff there. I do not blame anyone for not wanting to go and work in the Transvaal, and here is an opportunity for people who do not want to go to the Transvaal, or for Transvalers who would like to return, or for people who would like to live by the seaside, to be given a chance to come to Port Elizabeth.

There is another matter I want to mention. That is the use of the old post office. I regret to say that although the city council of Port Elizabeth has undertaken to take over the post office for municipal purposes—in fact they were very keen on this ten years ago—it was evident on the day of the inspection that there was an element in the city council that wanted to go back on their promise to take over the building. I know the hon. the Minister will not allow this to deter him from building the new post office there. I wish to ask the hon. the Minister tonight, if the city council should find it difficult to finance the take-over of that property, to accommodate the city council. Give them a little latitude, give them a little more time. The mayor of Port Elizabeth has said in a statement to the Press that there is a good property which can be bought at a profit. He said—

This is a somewhat short-sighted attitude to adopt. This is a historic building which is situated in such a way that the city council of Port Elizabeth will be obliged to take over that building, because future generations will reproach them if the present city council does not take over the building.

If they should be unwilling to take over the building, then I think the Post Office itself could investigate the possibility of retaining this building. I want to add at once that the building is not suitable for a post office—not at all—but if a little money is spent on the building, it could be used for office purposes, and if the Post Office could one day use the building for departmental work, I am sure the building could be well adapted to that purpose. My appeal to the hon. the Minister, therefore, is that the city council’s attitude of uncertainty, of possibly going back on their word, should not put him off. We need that post office too much. However, I trust the Minister, so I do not have any problem.

While I am on the subject of buildings, I also wish to express our appreciation to the hon. the Minister for the fact that an official residence has now been acquired for the regional director in Port Elizabeth. I think this is also a step in the right direction. All staff have problems when they are transferred and it is not always easy to obtain accommodation. It would be much easier if somebody knew, when he was transferred to another city, that there would be a house waiting for him. We appreciate the fact that a house has now been acquired.

In conclusion I wish to refer briefly to the agency services of the department, and there is one in particular which I wish to mention. It is the new one with regard to the renewal of motor vehicle licences in the Cape Province. I want to congratulate the Post Office on having taken this over. The Post Office probably did not realize, when it consented to do so, what a great service it would be rendering the public. Those of us who live in the cities see people queueing every year at the office of the Receiver of Revenue in an attempt to renew their licences, and from now on this will be so easy. There are many post offices in a city where the people can take out their licences. I myself have renewed my licence in the post office in this building, something which we have not been able to do in the past. I wish to thank the hon. the Minister for this service.

Mr. Speaker, I do not want to cross swords with anyone tonight; on the contrary, I wish to say good-bye. It will be a great honour for me to say a few words about this very fine and responsible department. Therefore I now wish to ask your permission, Mr. Speaker, to recall some facts from the distant past and to relate them to this budget.

I think back involuntarily to the days when a postage stamp still cost a penny. That was more than half a century ago. Today, after more than 50 years, a postage stamp on a letter costs 5 cents, for a much faster service, of course. To us as ordinary people, the transportation and delivery of our letters and postal articles remains the most important task of the Post Office and it is very clear to me that the cost involved in this work has increased by 400% over a period of half a century. However, I cannot think of a single article or a single service handled by the private sector of which the cost and the cost increases can be compared with this. In this respect I wish to mention a few examples by way of illustration.

Half a century ago, a man could have a good suit made to measure for £5. A suit of clothes of much poorer quality costs at least R150 today when it is bought in the shop. This amounts to a cost increase of 1 500%. At that time, a haircut cost 1 shilling for adults and sixpence for children. Today one can no longer have one’s hair cut for under R2. This amounts to an increase of 1 900% over a period of 50 years.

Then there are the food prices. An ordinary bunch of carrots cost the equivalent of 2 cents 50 years ago. Today it costs 35 cents on average—an increase of 1 750% over a period of 50 years. At that time, a telephone call cost a tickey. Today one can still make a telephone call for 5 cents. This amounts to an increase of only 100% over a period of 50 years.

Now there are many people who wish to compare the organization of the Post Office with that of a business concern in the private sector. Like any other Government department, the Post Office is more intent on providing a service than on making a profit. The profit motive is eliminated by way of an annual budget through which profits are kept to a minimum. The Post Office is a service organization, therefore, and to a lesser extent a business concern. In the annual report which is now before the House we find many important facts and figures which have already been discussed and which will continue to be discussed in the future. To me, however, the most important is a statement of fact which is contained in a few lines on page 5 of the annual report. It reads as follows—

This very serious matter is brought to the attention of the private sector in a very courteous way by the Postmaster-General. Just like other Government departments, the Department of Posts and Telecommunications has three faces. In the first place, it is a Government department whose interests have to be protected by the State and for whose activities the State has to accept responsibility. In the second place, it is a service organization, which has to render extremely important services to all sectors of the community at all times, and at the most reasonable costs. In the third place, the Post Office—like other Government departments —has in recent years developed into a training depot, a training college, a training institute for the private sector. The State does the training and some organizations in the private sector take over the trained people without making any investment in training. We should be sincerely grateful to the most loyal and, I believe, the best officials, who remain in the Public Service. However, one’s heart bleeds for these people, because they perform essential services at much lower salaries than those offered by the private sector.

If this very undesirable tendency continues, the Public Service is going to get hurt in the process. The State machine, around which everything revolves, will be damaged in the process. I want to say in all humility that this is becoming an enormous problem which can only be solved by this House, perhaps, through honest co-operation.

One has to express one’s appreciation towards the South African building industry which began training its own people years ago—there are the Bifsas which are located at several strategic points in the country. It is a fact that this organization is going to invest R50 million to be able to train its own people. I hope there are other organizations in the private sector that are going to follow this example.

I wish to avail myself of this opportunity of conveying to you, Sir, to the hon. the Prime Minister, all hon. Ministers, every hon. member of this House and every official, my very sincere thanks for the privilege of being associated with them for three years. Allow me to single out just one group by conveying my sincere thanks to the men of the S.A. Police, who guard this very important building day and night, for the security they give us.

The time I have spent here has been the most interesting in my fife so far. It has also been the most illuminating. I regard the experience and the privilege of having been here for three years as a precious heritage and I shall treasure it as long as I live.

Mr. Speaker, we say goodbye to the hon. member for Springs and we wish him well for the future.

I should like to address a few words to the hon. the Minister of Posts and Telecommunications in connection with two matters. The first is related to the remuneration of telecommunication technicians in his department. The position is that Whites, Coloureds, Indians and Blacks are being trained as telecommunications technicians in the Post Office. I understand that the people who are being trained are receiving exactly the same training, have to meet exactly the same standards as far as that training is concerned and have to pass exactly the same examination. Afterwards they do exactly the same work. I should like to ask the hon. the Minister to explain and justify to this House the great differences between the salaries received by these people. I point to the following figures: In the case of Whites, the remuneration is R5 220 per year; in the case of Indians and Coloureds it is R4 698 per year; and in the case of Blacks it is R3 816 a year. A Black man, purely and simply and solely because he has a black skin—there is no other reason for it . . .

What about his housing?

What has that got to do with it? What about your housing and my housing, even if we pay the same? I may live in a poor residential area and the hon. member may live in a luxury area. That has nothing to do with it. I am not talking to the hon. member, because his party has already dealt with him. He is no longer even their candidate in the coming election. I am now talking to the hon. the Minister and I want him to explain why there is such a big difference. A Black man earns about 30% less merely because he has a black skin. He has received the same training and therefore has the same qualifications and does exactly the same work.

The hon. the Minister is generally known as quick-thinking Hennie . . .

Luckily I am not loud-mouthed Horace.

It is generally known, too, that the hon. the Minister is firmly convinced that Black people cannot think as fast as White people. [Interjections.] Could that be the reason why Black people are being paid less although they do the same work as the White man? Are they slower at using a screwdriver than the White man? Or are they slower than the White man when it comes to the wiring? Is that the position? After all, there must be a reason, and the hon. the Minister should give us that reason, because it would appear to me that we are concerned here with an injustice for which there cannot be any justification.

The NP is faced with an election. We have asked the hon. the Prime Minister and other hon. members to give us a definition of unnecessary discrimination. What is unnecessary discrimination? On the other hand, what is necessary discrimination? Could the hon. the Minister tell me whether it is necessary, and if so, why it is necessary to discriminate? How can he justify the fact that a Black technician earns R1 000 less than a White technician? We should like to know that. Is this necessary discrimination, or is it hurtful discrimination?

The hon. the Minister of Foreign Affairs gave an undertaking to the UN five years ago that all forms of discrimination would disappear in South Africa. Recently the hon. the Minister of Co-operation and Development made the same promise again at Palm Springs in America, i.e. that we were going to abolish all forms of discrimination in South Africa. In spite of that, this hon. Minister and a Government department are blatantly perpetuating a form of discrimination for which there can be no justification. And at the same time, the Government has the termerity to tell the world and South Africans that they are opposed to race discrimination.

Words do not matter. All the rhetorical promises, all the fine sentiments and idealistic statements made by so-called enlightened people in the NP, mean nothing, because the deeds of the Government prove the opposite of all the fine sentiments which they express all over South Africa.

I hope that that hon. Minister will be able to think a little faster tonight . . . [Interjections.]

Order! Hon. members must give the hon. member a chance to finish his speech. [Interjections.]

The hon. the Minister should put his brain into top gear and give us an explanation.

†In the few minutes left to me, I want to be very positive and address the hon. the Minister on another matter that is very important. In Randburg there is soon to be erected a new post office . . .

If it depended on you, they would not get it.

It will be erected in the Mall which is the very heart of the central business district of Randburg. I do not know whether the hon. the Minister has visited the Randburg Mall. It is the most beautiful and the most pleasant mall in South Africa. At least the hon. member for Randburg will agree with me, because we were both responsible for that beautiful mall. It was co-operation between the NP and the old United Party that brought about the erection of that mall. I want to put a very serious question to the hon. the Minister. The post office building that is planned for that mall will be a prestige building because it is in the mall in the very heart of the business district of Randburg, which in the very near future is going to be one of the most impressive metropolitan areas in South Africa. I would therefore like to ask the hon. the Minister to make provision, at this early stage, for two things in the planning and building of that particular post office. The first consideration is that a very large number of aged, from a very large area, will from time to time want to visit that post office in order to do business, e.g. buy stamps, post letters, send off telegrams, etc. They may also want to collect pensions and do other business which is normally done by people at a post office. I want to appeal to the hon. the Minister— and the cost will not be excessive, but the facility would be very advantageous to older people, and a feather in the cap of the department—to provide, within that post office, a reception area for elderly people where they can be accommodated, comfortably and happily, with floors of a non-skid type, with hand-rails to prevent people falling, proper furniture, toilet facilities, etc. Similar facilities should also be provided for handicapped people. I am specifically thinking of slow-rise ramps, low counters, etc.

Mr. Speaker, the hon. member for Bryanston carried on in a rather hysterical way in the first part of his speech. I think there is a good reason for that—he omitted to thank hon. members of this House before his departure. Under the circumstances, therefore, I shall wish him well, on behalf of the hon. members of this House, when he departs after 29 April. [Interjections.] I think it was very wrong of the hon. member . . .

Bye-bye, Wynand.

… to make such a hysterical fuss about the difference in salaries between Whites, Coloureds and Asians and Black people. Surely the hon. member knows that there is a long historical background to this state of affairs. Surely he knows, too, that it is the policy of the Government to remove these differences. He is perfectly aware of that. What is he trying to prove?

What has the progress been over the past 5 years?

The hon. member cannot possibly imagine that he is making any impression on his voters with his tirade at this stage. To what gallery is he playing? The second thing to which the hon. member referred was the mall in Randburg.

I think it was a much better project even than the hon. member suggested here. It is not only the most modern in the world, and is not only being visited by experts from all over the world, but it has a further important feature, and that is that it forms the boundary between the Bryanston and Randburg constituencies. That is why I am especially grateful for the existence of this clear boundary.

I just wish to draw the hon. the Minister’s attention briefly to a few matters affecting Randburg. The new post office which is being planned by the department at the moment and which will soon be developed— they intend to finish it by April 1983—is too small even at the planning stage. I should like to furnish the facts. The development in Randburg has been phenomenal. Over the past 15 years, its population has increased by approximately 1 000%. The number of business concerns in the central business district has probably increased tenfold over the past three years. This post office was planned and approved before this phenomenal expansion. I should just like to mention that at this stage. A second aspect which is causing problems is the fact that there is a delay in the development of the mall, the last part of the complex, because the department is still not prepared at this stage to grant permission for the final development of the mall before the post office has been built. However, we have enjoyed good co-operation in the past, and we shall arrange for an appointment with the hon. the Minister and with the Postmaster-General in order to discuss this matter. At this stage I am only asking the hon. the Minister to give attention to this problem. At the same time, I wish to thank the hon. the Minister for the kind gesture of allowing the architects of the post office to negotiate with the architects of the Randburg city council so that this development may be properly integrated into the whole set-up. We are very grateful to the hon. the Minister for this.

Sir, I wish to refer to another aspect. The hon. member for Bryanston made a fuss about salaries and differences that allegedly exist in that connection. I should like to draw the attention of the House to some facts regarding services to non-Whites, specifically the position with regard to telephones. As far as the Whites are concerned, there is more than one telephone available for every two persons. In the Black community—and here I am referring merely to the Blacks in the urban areas—there is one telephone for every 36 Black people. So there is a fairly big difference and I want this House to take cognizance of this. At the same time, I must point out that as recently as a year ago, there was only one telephone for every 46 Black people. This shows phenomenal progress there has been in the provision of services to the non-White sector of the population as far as telephones are concerned. Sir, we have to take cognizance of the fact that this means a higher standard of living and makes better communication possible. I suggest that these very services, especially in Soweto, have had a calming effect on the climate there.

Sir, I have proudly paged through the annual report of the department, and I wish to congratulate the department sincerely, not only on an excellent presentation, but also on the fine contents of the report. Time does not allow me to mention all the highlights in the report, but one figure which I believe we should take note of is the fact that during the year under review, there was an increase of 916 million call units per month. I think this is a phenomenal increase, and if the Post Office is able to handle such an increase, that is certainly a feather in their cap.

The hon. member for Hillbrow also mentioned the problems with regard to staff. He referred to the problems mentioned on page 6 of the report. But he omitted to say that there are 2 626 more people in the employ of the Post Office today than during the year covered by the previous report. He also referred to the shortage of technical staff mentioned on page 30 of the report and made a great fuss about the shortage of 1 440 people in this section. On the same page, however, it says that during the year under review, 1 202 technicians were trained; they have already been trained within the department. Surely this is an achievement we might publicize, and surely the hon. member should refer to that as well. What is actually happening is that within one specific year, the department made up 84% of its shortage through training. The department trained those people itself. Because these people are often enticed away, the department is also training them for the private sector. If the hon. member wishes to suggest that the private sector is not responsible for enticing away these people, he must tell us who is responsible.

I want to refer to a few aspects relating to developments we may expect in South Africa during the next few years. The hon. member for Port Elizabeth Central has already referred to the video conference system. We have only to look at the field of telecommunications services. I do not know how many hon. members know that it was only after 1924 that the Morse code was gradually replaced by the telegram. The last time the Morse code was used in the telegraph system was exactly 10 years ago the day before yesterday, on 23 February 1971. Ten years ago to that day the Morse code was still being used in the overland service. At present it is only used by ships at sea. Today, 32 000 telegrams are sent every day. In 1980. 18 629 telex services were in use. The latest development in West Germany and in the Scandinavian countries is an improved telex service system. This system is called the “super-telex” or the “teletex”. It is used mainly by big companies which handle large volumes of inter-office correspondence. This is then developed into a totally integrated administrative and telecommunications system which at the same time eliminates a large amount of paperwork and the problem of storage space. What happens in practice is that a typist types a letter on a word processor. As the letter is being typed, it appears on a video screen, and at the same time it is absorbed into a memory. Then changes or additions can be made to the letter, and these are immediately reflected on the screen and inserted into the memory. At the mere press of a button, the whole letter with memory is transferred to the receiving centre, where the same data then becomes available. Everything is then kept in a computer, and in this way the whole correspondence system is eliminated. As soon as the standards have been fully laid down internationally, the department intends to introduce the system in South Africa as well. It is estimated that this will be possible by the end of 1982. A supplement to this super-telex service or teletex service which we may shortly expect here is an improved facsimile service or telephone copying service. Newspapers are already using this for the transmission of copy as well as photographs. It has been adopted by the business sector. In recent years, these units have been developed very cheaply. In France and Japan, it is being done at a cost of approximately R400 to R500, which is about one-tenth of the present cost of these units in this country. We may expect tremendous development in this field as well.

Finally, I just wish to refer to the development there has been in the process of automation within the postal service. Three million postal articles are now handled in Johannesburg every day, and with the introduction of new automatic machines the process can be much better handled. But then we must make use of postal codes. Postal codes are still not being added to 12% of all postal articles. One may argue that 88% is a very good percentage and that we may be proud of the public’s co-operation, but if we could add the other 12%, we as members of the public could really show our appreciation towards the department for the fine service we receive from the department.

Why do you not detain the 12% for 90 days?

I should like to wish the department, Mr. Bester and the hon. the Minister everything of the best in the year to come. May they continue their good work.

Mr. Speaker, Cyril Verschaeve said on one occasion with reference to the faith of Paul Kruger, that anyone who kept faith as Paul Kruger did, would not degenerate but would be renewed in everything. Excuse me if I am so impudent as to talk about the Riviera of South Africa, viz. Broederstroom, where the footsteps of Bart Pretorius, Andries Pretorius, Eugene Marais and Gustav Preller are still clearly recognizable. In this case, with the sympathetic co-operation of the Minister and members of his staff, we have ultimately succeeded in exchanging the ox-wagon, the manual exchange, for an automatic exchange. Sir, I had to keep faith for 23 years, but this put the seal on the sixth automatic exchange in my constituency. I say in all modesty that I tried to approach the officials in the right way and plied them with requests without a break. I would be neglecting my duty if I did not also express my gratitude towards them on this occasion. The Riviera of South Africa is where the Crocodile River flows into the Hartbeespoort Dam, and I think this area had a long-standing claim to the facility that we have now been given. I want to put it on record that my supporters and myself appreciate this a great deal, and I want to hope and trust that we will be able to celebrate this occasion before the end of the year.

Sir, whilst I am about it and since I am a person of experience, since I am now obtaining the sixth automatic exchange replacing manual exchanges, I also want to put a feather in the cap of the staff who operate manual exchanges. Sir, the friendliness and helpfulness on the part of those men and women, particularly towards those of us for whom the telephone is indispensable as a means of attempting to serve our community, deserves all the tribute and recognition of those of us who had to avail ourselves of it. I must also say—if I were not to do so, it would be unfair and incomplete—that there are in fact those who say that there is no reply or that the line is engaged when this is not the case. On the positive side I want to say that I hope that the dedicated officials will exert a positive influence to serve to the public upon those officials who still have their weak moments. There is nothing finer than the official who puts his honour in the hands of his organization, of his position and particularly of the public that he has to serve. I want to tell these people in the postal services and the people who operate the manual exchanges, and I want to place it on record that we who are dependent upon their services, appreciate their co-operation and interest a great deal.

This is all that I wanted to say. I just wanted to say thank you very much for this latest concession to myself and my voters and express my modest and sincere gratitude for it.

Mr. Speaker, it is true that the favourable economic climate that is prevailing in South Africa creates problems for us too, although we are grateful for it and hope that the situation will continue in future. Therefore there is one matter that I should like to elucidate tonight, even though it has already been dealt with here tonight to a certain extent. Today, as in the past, I once again want to make a serious representation to the private sector to establish their own training facilities and not to entice the thoroughly trained staff away from the Post Office. The Post Office has gone through difficult years in order to comply with all the demands that are being made. According to my information, during the last financial year, 1980-’81, no less than 17 new exchanges were built on the Witwatersrand and more than one dozen of them had to be enlarged further. The Post Office spends more than R1 million on sending selected engineers and technicians abroad to undergo specialized training there so that they will be in a position to combat the problems and challenges facing the postal services here.

It is an enormous task to expand our existing telephone system and to convert it into a modern electronic system. Every trained person is necessary to accomplish this task. To establish a completely new system and to phase out an old one, and to comply with all the extensions that have to take place, is the task weighing upon the shoulders of these people. It creates a tremendous problem to provide services to Black residential areas, and a great deal has been said about this. To expand and establish the new electronic industry that must arise in this country, the Post Office needs every trained member of staff. But a communication service of this kind will mean nothing if we do not have the staff at our disposal to maintain it. Therefore, my plea tonight is a serious one. It is a representation to the private sector to train their own people and—I do not think enough attention is always given to this—to make use of the assistance that the State willingly gives the private sector to establish training facilities for their people. My request to the private sector is therefore not to entice the staff away from the Post Office, because enticing this trained staff away, is an unpatriotic act as far as I am concerned. If the Post Office loses its key staff because they are being enticed away by the private sector, I ask myself: Who are the people who are going to suffer as a result? It is going to be those very businessmen, those industrialists and those who entice the people away, the people who pay them more because we are experiencing favourable economic conditions. It is those very people who are going to suffer most. That is why I am making this very serious request.

To conclude. I really feel a heartfelt need to express my sincere gratitude for what has already been achieved in my constituency with regard to postal and telecommunications services. In my constituency and in those areas that were previously represented by me, no less than three extremely modern post offices have been erected during the last decade. The one in Kempton Park is considered one of the most modern, and in any event the only one of its kind, in South Africa.

Several telephone exchanges were established in Kempton Park and its immediate vicinity, including Edenvale. The existing exchanges underwent tremendous expansions as a result of a population explosion that made tremendous demands upon our Post Office services.

I want to conclude by saying that not only was there a residential explosion in Kempton Park and environs, but also a tremendous explosion with regard to businesses and industries. But here too the Post Office did not lag behind in providing the necessary telephone and telex services. On behalf of the residents, the industrialists and the businessmen I want to address a special word of thanks to the Post Office, its staff from the highest to the lowest, for the fine services that are being provided there and for the fact that they have seen to it that there will not be a shortage in future either.

Mr. Speaker, I should just like to say thank you very much to the hon. member for Kempton Park and other hon. members for their support and for the representations that they made to the private sector to take note of the fact that in these times, enticing employees away from the Post Office will only be benefit on a temporary basis for them, but on the long term may be to their detriment. I thank the hon. member for that representation that he made.

I do not want to digress further on that subject now. I shall speak about it again tomorrow. However, I do want to refer to a remark that I made during my Second Reading speech, viz. that in Europe, where there is an average unemployment figure of 8%—I read this morning in the newspaper that at the moment it is 10% in the United Kingdom—these trained, specialized people are just as sought after as they are in South Africa. My conclusion in this regard is therefore that the reasons for this are not the reasons that are being put forward here by hon. members of the Opposition. This applies to the rowdy hon. member for Bryanston too, who is always so keen to adopt this attitude here. It has nothing to do with these matters. It is a rapidly developing technology, and the industrial sector, the State and whoever, throughout the advanced industrial countries of the world, cannot keep pace with training people at an efficient rate. This is where the problem arises. If then we can be supported by appeals to patriotism, if we can call it that—as the hon. member for Kempton Park did—we will be making a great deal of progress, and then we would understand one another.

I believe it has been agreed that this debate is now being ended provisionally in order to let other matters take preference. That is why I should like to move—

Mr. Speaker, I move—

Mr. Speaker, we have now reached the Third Reading stage of this Bill. It is not necessary to say a great deal about it. We have expressed our viewpoints on the Bill both during the Second Reading stage and the Committee Stage.

The Bill certainly represents an improvement in Police service conditions. It provides the Police Force with a medical aid scheme which, we certainly think, will be a much greater benefit to the members of the Force in the present circumstances.

Why did you vote against it then?

We believe the Bill should have gone further. The hon. the Minister should have gone further. He should at least have allowed himself some discretionary powers in regard to the contribution which members of the Force may be called upon to make in future. We regret that the hon. the Minister, during the Committee Stage, did not accept the amendment which we proposed. Nevertheless, the Bill, in its present form, does represent an improvement. It represents a step forward for the S.A. Police, which in so many ways has been the Cinderella of the Public Service in South Africa. We know the problems under which the Police Force suffers. We know the long and sordid history of woefully low wages. We know that even over the past year there have been no less than 2 000 resignations from the Police Force. We know of the considerable discontent existing within the Police Force, and we hope that in some measure at least the benefits being bestowed by this Bill will assist towards alleviating discontent.

In that spirit we will therefore support the Third Reading of this Bill in the hope that this will be the prelude to greater benefits which the S.A. Police Force will receive in the future.

Mr. Speaker, I must point out that there is certainly a fresh breeze blowing through this Chamber tonight. [Interjections.] I thank the hon. member for Musgrave for his support and for the manner in which he substantiated it.

*As I have already said during the discussion of this Bill earlier on, and I just want to confirm once again at this stage: this concise measure is one of the most important pieces of legislation with regard to members and retired members of the S.A. Police Force, that has enjoyed the attention of this House and been passed by this House for many years. This legislation will be beneficial to all members of the Police Force in practice, and this applies to White, Coloured and Asian members of the Police Force, as well as the Black members of the Force, and retired members, and the dependants of present and retired members of the Force. This is tremendous progress for the various members, but particularly for retired members. Furthermore, I want to refer once again to the fact that in terms of a new provision in the scheme, a member can be treated in any military, public or private hospital or nursing or maternity institution at no cost for such member. This also includes medical treatment in a private or public hospital. Therefore it is a very beneficial scheme.

There is another aspect that I should like to emphasize. In terms of the old scheme, the position with regard to medical services was that a member had to go to the district surgeon for his primary medical treatment. This he received free of charge. If he then also received specialist treatment of his own choice, he had to pay a seventh of that sum himself. Under the new scheme all the people involved in the scheme have the advantage, with regard to their medical services, of going to a medical practitioner of their own choice and also of going to a specialist of their own choice. With regard to such medical service and/or specialist service they pay a tenth of the account themselves. This too is a great advantage.

I also want to refer to a chance remark by the hon. member for Musgrave, viz. that he is sorry that I did not want to accept the amendment that would have given me greater flexibility with regard to making regulations applicable to medical services. If the hon. member looks at the existing section 33 of the Police Act and particularly at the provision that precedes the one that is being amended, he will see that that preceding provision, together with the one which is being amended, makes complete provision for the State President to make regulations in order to cover all aspects about which the hon. member is concerned.

I want to say once again that the medical scheme that has reached its final stage in this House tonight, is a particularly good starting point for the S.A. Police in 1981. In addition there are other good things awaiting the S.A. Police in 1981 and the hon. member referred to some of them in a rather critical manner. I should like to set his mind at rest. We have already heard the announcement of the hon. the Minister of Finance with regard to salary increases.

It is still too low.

The salaries are increased by a basic 12% and there is also the plus factor. All I want to tell the hon. member, is that I am happy about that plus factor together with the other benefits that are included in the announcement made by the hon. the Minister of Finance. Then I want to tell the hon. member that over and above those factors, there are particularly good salary and other conditions of service that also come into effect on 1 April for the Police. If the hon. member will be patient enough to wait until 1 April and a little beyond that . . .

Just before the election.

… he will join me in feeling very happy about the special benefits that will soon be granted to the S.A. Police.

Mr. Speaker, while the debate was in progress yesterday, a number of questions were put to me by hon. members opposite. If I answer their questions in detail now, perhaps we can cut the Committee Stage short. I shall try to reply to all the questions as they were put to me.

The first question by the hon. member for Pinelands was how many women are being affected by the wage determinations. This is a very important question, because you will recall that the differentiation between the sexes is now being phased out by means of this legislation. At the moment the correct figure is 87 357, which is quite a considerable number.

The hon. member also asked how many directives or determinations would be affected by the provisions of clause 7(c), i.e. where discrimination still takes place on the basis of sex. As the hon. member knows, determinations are continually being revised by the Wage Board. At the moment 35 determinations are in the pipeline.

Another question had a bearing on the danger of women possibly losing their jobs because equal pay is a prerequisite now. However, I do not think that one need be concerned about this. We have a strong economy and there is a considerable demand for trained staff. Therefore, it will not happen often that women are discharged as the result of the principle of equal pay but, if this should happen, we have created an instrument to deal with it. What are the functions of the Industrial Court? If someone is relieved of his position as part of an unfair labour practice, he has an immediate remedy, viz. the Industrial Court. If there should be unfair discrimination, for whatever reason, the person concerned now has an immediate remedy, unlike the position in the past, because he can appeal to the Industrial Court. Therefore, employees do not need to have any fears in this regard.

It was also asked how long it would take before there would no longer be discrimination on the basis of sex. As matters stand at the moment, the Act will probably be implemented in a short while. Existing determinations will have to be revised, but the maximum period before all possible discrimination on the basis of sex will be phased out, could be two, or at the most three years. As determinations are revised, the clause concerned will be implemented. Consequently, a process of phasing out will be commenced at once.

Another question concerns clause 8(b). The hon. member asked for reports and recommendations of the Wage Board to continue to be tabled. The reason why the provision is now being amended, is for the very reason that the documents are very bulky. Hon. members know what a report by the Wage Board looks like. It is a bulky document and it is continually being tabled. When the reports come to this House, they must be in both official languages. This immediately means tremendous pressure on the translating services. However, if tabling the reports served a good purpose, one could concede that it should be done. However, we know from experience what happens. I have been responsible for this portfolio for several years already and in this period the Opposition has never put a question in this regard. My department does not receive any questions in this regard either. Even members on this side of the House do not ask questions about it and no letters are addressed to us on this subject. Therefore, these are documents that are merely tabled formally and which cause a great deal of work outside and we can very easily rationalize them. There is no other reason for eliminating subsection (7). The fact that the reports will not be tabled here, does not mean that they are not available. Of course they are still available to the bodies concerned. For instance, the trade unions receive the reports. However, to bring them here from there and table them here with all the work that this entails, is really simply too much. Which hon. member sitting here tonight has ever looked at one of those documents? No one looks at them. Nor do I, and I am the Minister. These things pass one by. One takes a formal look at them. However, these are not the type of documents with which we should burden either this House or the country. Seventy or eighty determinations are regularly revised once every two years, translated and tabled. No, I think this is a very good change that is being brought about.

There is unanimity in this regard. It is not as if questions are being asked about this. The hon. member says he does not feel happy about repealing section 13 of the Act. This is being done by clause 10. This provision has a bearing on the publication of explanatory memoranda. In all investigations, the Wage Board issues a questionnaire for completion by representative organizations. This actually amounts to the organizations concerned being asked questions by way of a representative questionnaire, and depending on the replies to the questions, certain conclusions are reached which are then discussed once again with the trade union concerned. Therefore there is an interaction. The way in which it is ascertained whether changes should take place in wages, is that questions are asked first and, after the information has been collected, the matter is discussed. This is a process that, in general, is organized in such a way that those who participate in it, have all the details. I am quite satisfied with this and so are the trade unions. This legislation has not simply landed here in front of us. Many long discussions have been held about it with the bodies concerned. There is not a single body that is not satisfied that it should be done in this way. Therefore, I want to satisfy hon. members. If they perhaps thought that there were trade unions or other bodies who asked questions about this, I can set their minds at rest by telling them that this has not happened in our experience.

The next clause has a bearing on victimization. The victimization clause deals with the fact that employers could make employees feel that their membership of trade unions had something to do with the wage determinations. One symptom of victimization is that people do not have the courage to ask questions. However, if there are victimization provisions with regard to registered trade unions, then what about the others? As the Industrial Conciliation Act reads at present, it is very clear that victimization will not be tolerated, whether it has a bearing on registered trade unions or unregistered trade unions. Therefore, the aim is that all forms of victimization must be eliminated. In the labour world, victimization of workers is an unpleasant matter. Workers do not want to feel that employers can twist their arms in some way or other and victimize them. What we are trying to do here, is to remove that sting. This is why the provision has been formulated in this way.

The hon. member also asked a question in connection with putting up notices. He asked whether it is necessary to eliminate the posting up of notices. This is the type of administrative arrangement that was introduced by legislation and which caused a great deal of work. It is the experience of trade unions, employers’ organizations and the department that if an employee wants to know what an industrial agreement is, who does he ask? He does not ask his boss, nor does he read a notice. He goes to his trade union at once. He goes to someone that he trusts. In other words, this is where they get their information, and therefore we really do not think it is necessary to oblige employers in this way to display the bulky, I am tempted to say exhaustive wage determinations. It is a waste of time and space and practice has shown that it is really not meaningful. As hon. members can see now, most of the provisions of the legislation are aimed at streamlining the legislation, at being accommodating, at making it easier and at creating confidence. On the basis of the reactions that we received from the employees’ organizations, i.e. trade unions, I am convinced that they are entirely in agreement with the proposals that are before the House.

Last night the hon. member Mr. Van den Bergh made a representation for and made favourable remarks about former leaders in this sphere, former chairmen of the Wage Board. I want to agree with the hon. member and say that the people who have led the Wage Board in the past, were outstanding people. In this regard I want to mention the name of a person who served the department for 51 years, viz. Mr. Tindale. He died in an accident a short while ago. For years he was the secretary and then also the chairman of the Wage Board. Therefore, I want to thank the hon. member for the remarks that he made in this regard. One of the speakers who spoke after him, congratulated him on his maiden speech, and I too want to congratulate him on behalf of this side of the House. I have admiration for him because we knew one another in the Other Place, and also because he was a trade union leader for many years and particularly when he was still younger and in the line of fire, he made a special contribution in this sphere as leader of the steel workers.

The hon. member for Durban North also asked a few questions. He wanted to be assured that only the objection stage would be eliminated and that the determination itself would still be published. This is the case. The hon. member’s interpretation is correct. The publication of the determination is essential to give it legality, and consequently the provision remains unchanged. The hon. member also referred to clause 5 and spoke about decent standards of living. He wanted to know whether it would not perpetuate poverty in certain areas of depression. The hon. member must know that the Wage Board follows the policy that wages must be reasonable. The Wage Board tries to take all factors into account, including local factors, when it makes a determination. All factors that can have an influence on and can give an answer to whether the wage that they are determining, is a living one, are taken into account. Provision is also made for a period of transition when there may be a movement from a low to a higher wage. The hon. member then asked whether the department would at least bring wages into line with the poverty datum line or preferably with the standard of living when wage determinations are revised. As I said, fairness is taken into account in determining wages. In this regard the Wage Board takes into account all information that may have an influence upon the standard of living of wage earners. I want to assure the hon. member that he does not have to be afraid of the Wage Board taking any other factor into account besides the welfare of the workers and all the factors that influence that welfare in the labour situation.

Now I come to the hon. member for Houghton. I can understand that aný woman would react smartly to the question of phasing out differentiation on the basis of sex. I want to tell the hon. member that before she rose to her feet here, and even when the legislation was published, there was a reaction from various women’s organizations. She wants to know whether we intend making a similar amendment to the Industrial Conciliation Act during the next session. I think this is what she asked. I can tell her that this is in fact what we intend to do. In the bargaining situation there are two instruments, i.e. the Industrial Conciliation Act and the Wage Act. The hon. member will understand that we cannot build a principle into one and not into the other. This is simply logical. This is why we are intending to do this.

Then she asked whether I as Minister would consider bringing farm workers and workers in private households within the scope of application of the Act. The answer is that I cannot do this, firstly because circumstances in agriculture and in private households are completely different. There are really no representations of which I am aware, of which I have to take note in this regard. I have undertaken, as far as agriculture is concerned, not to take action in this sphere at all unless I do so in co-operation with the agricultural unions and they take the initiative in this regard. As far as private households are concerned, I want to say that although voices are always being heard, it is so unco-ordinated that one really does not have the impression that people in South Africa want us to apply the Industrial Conciliation Act or the Wage Act in that sphere.

It applies in other countries.

I do not believe South Africa has reached the stage where we have to look at that.

Then the hon. member asked for the assurance that the wages of men would not drop in the process of eliminating differentiation on the basis of sex. This will never happen. How could it happen? Firstly, the economy does not allow it and secondly at the moment there is a shortage that must be taken into account. What sense would there be in this in view of the fact that the entire principle that we are trying to build in, and which the private sector accepts, is the principle of equal pay for equal work done out or equal service rendered? What will happen in practice, therefore, is in total opposition to her submission. I have no fear in this regard. Taking the economic condition into account, I do not believe this will happen.

The hon. member also wanted to know whether women could not be replaced by men in the unskilled professions in cases where equal wages are paid, and if this should happen, could employees who fall under the Wage Act consider this an unfair labour practice? I can tell the hon. member that as soon as such a departure occurs, I shall consider it an unfair labour practice. Then if it is an unfair labour practice the matter can be referred to the Industrial Court, a body which in my opinion has played a very important role in recent times and will continue to do so in the future.

I assume that the questions that were put, all of them sensitive questions regarding the labour situation, were asked with a view to the possible reactions that there may be. I can give the assurance that this was foreseen when the legislation was drafted, and that I am satisfied that the legislation has been very well received. In fact, lately there has been an indication that all labourers, including the trade unions, understand this and agree with it. Therefore, the Government has the full support of the people who are affected by this legislation.

Mr. Chairman, I should just like to say one or two things. One is that we welcome the removal of sex discrimination. This is a very important step the hon. the Minister has taken. He told us in his reply to the Second Reading that, if I remember correctly, 87 000 women were affected by wage determinations and that there were 35 such determinations. I am very glad indeed to have the hon. the Minister assure us that it is his intention to introduce the same clause into the Industrial Conciliation Act as soon as possible; in other words, the removal of sex discrimination.

It can obviously not be the same clause but a clause on the same basis.

Yes, with the same basic principle. Let us put it that way. Quite obviously that will be even more important because I imagine there are probably more women affected by industrial conciliation agreements than there are under the Wage Act. We do not have the figures. The Manpower Utilization Report does not give a breakdown as far as sex is concerned although it does give a breakdown as far as race is concerned. I was wondering whether the hon. the Minister had such figures. I gather they are not available because it involves an enormous amount of work.

Yes, a tremendous amount of work.

Yes. However, I think it would be a reasonable assumption that even more women are affected under the ICA than under the Wage Act. I just wanted to say to the hon. the Minister that I was and I am sure all of us here were very pleased indeed to hear that the hon. the Minister was going to do that. The hon. the Minister referred to the question of the replacement of women by men when wages are equalized. I want to make it quite clear that I have no fears as regards the skilled occupations either. There is an overall shortage of skilled labour and it is very unlikely that an employer will jeopardize his enterprise by sacking skilled women in the hope of getting men to take their places.

That is what I said.

Well, I quite agree with the hon. the Minister, but would he not agree that the situation might be very different as far as unskilled work is concerned where there is not a shortage of labour and where indeed there is an oversupply of labour in comparison to the number of jobs that are offering? These labour jobs and unskilled jobs at the moment also rate women’s work at a lower wage than that for males. I am sure that is the reason why a number of employers have employed women in these jobs. I hope the hon. the Minister will keep a careful eye on this situation.

We are keeping an eye on the situation.

The hon. the Minister says that there is a remedy in that one can go to an industrial court if there is a dismissal on these grounds. However, I do not see any definition of “unfair labour practice” in the Wage Act although there is a definition of “unfair labour practice” in the Industrial Conciliation Act. Can people who fall under wage determinations as against people who fall under industrial council agreements use a definition of “unfair labour practice” although there is no such definition in the Wage Act? This is why I am bothered about it. I certainly do agree with the hon. the Minister that there is no danger as far as skilled workers are concerned. They are protected by their very scarcity and by the very fact that they have acquired a deftness in their job. I am quite sure that employers will be very wary indeed of taking men on instead of retaining women in those circumstances.

Mr. Chairman, of course there could be isolated cases but I do not think that it could be the rule. Apart from that, the hon. member will know that we do have the industrial courts and, of course, the labour unions will see to it that this sort of practice does not take root in South Africa. Therefore I am not worried about it.

Yes, but unskilled workers do not very often have trade unions.

Yes, but normally there are unions. There are many people who will watch over their interests. Apart from watching over their interests, we do have the machinery on the part of the department to see to it. I really do not think that in practice they would be in a position where this could happen.

Mr. Chairman, the reason why I think we must think about this is that other countries have this experience too. It was found necessary in Great Britain, I believe, when the Equal Wages Act was passed, to see that there was legislative protection against discrimination on these grounds. I think we must just watch out.

Mr. Chairman, I want to say firstly that we appreciate very much the full replies given by the hon. the Minister. I want to refer to clause 8(b) which proposes the deletion of subsection (7), which, of course, does away with the tabling of recommendations and reports by the Wage Board. The hon. the Minister has made a good case that this should no longer be the practice because this will delay the work of the Wage Board and also actually involve the Wage Board in needless expenditure and also in translation work. It does seem to me that as these recommendations and reports have obviously to be made available to the trade unions, the translation must take place. In other words, the translation does not take place simply because it is going to be laid on the Table in Parliament. These documents must be made available and I want to make a suggestion to the hon. the Minister. I am not going to move an amendment I merely want to ask the hon. the Minister if he will discuss with his department the possibility of making reports and recommendations available to, say, the spokesmen of the various parties in this House so that at least there is a record for those of us who follow the deliberations, the recommendations, the reports and the work of the Wage Board. [Interjections.] I am simply recommending that and I quite agree with the hon. the Minister that it is quite clear that very few people ever look at this. I go along with all his comments but I make that suggestion to him.

Mr. Chairman, the hon. the Minister has explained the reason for the repeal of section 13 of the Act, which of course is the measure that makes it necessary to publish in the Government Gazette the recommendations of the board. He also says in the explanatory memorandum that he has issued on the Bill, that the Wage Board offers ample opportunity for representations to be made by interested parties and that objections received after publication of the recommendations have as a rule already been considered by the board during its formulation, and almost without exception, he says, the recommendations that have been published are republished as wage determinations without amendment. In his speech this evening the hon. the Minister told us that no objections had been received from the trade unions about the repeal of section 13. I, however, have one objection from a trade union which was sent to the Director-General of the Department of Manpower Utilization. It is from the Association of Distributive and Allied Workers Unions and they take a very strong view in regard to the repeal of section 13. Perhaps the hon. the Minister has not seen this objection.

I have not seen it.

As the hon. the Minister has not seen it I am going to read part of it to him because I think he ought to hear it and the House ought to hear it. The point they make is this. First of all they say that they are totally opposed to the deletion of the objection process. They say although it is seldom indeed that any change has been made as a result of objections, this is not the fault of the objectors. They say they make objections and it is not their fault that their objections are not accepted. They also say that the people who are affected by such important measures as the payment and the receipt of wages and the provision and enjoyment of certain conditions of employment must have a right to a proper say in regard thereto.

Well, I see it does say in the White Paper that it is a legal requirement that interested parties be invited by the board to lodge representations. I gather, however, that that is before the recommendations are actually published, and I think that it is after the recommendations are published that these people want to have an opportunity again of objecting to the recommendations which have been accepted by the board. I know it is supposed to be time-consuming to publish these recommendations. It all lengthens the process.

It retards the final acceptance of the recommendations.

Well, I see that, of course. Anything that is open to objection retards the final acceptance of the recommendation. I do not think it is nearly as important, however, as getting a recommendation which is accepted by everybody concerned. It seems to me that should be the objective. The union makes, what I believe, is a very good point. Although it does not make it here, I have certainly heard the point being made that the way in which to speed up the operations of the Wage Board is to increase the size of the Wage Board. I think there are only five . . .

We did increase the size of the Wage Board some time ago to handle the increased volume of work.

Well, it still takes a long time. Perhaps the hon. the Minister should have an even larger board or regional representatives who can do the work of the board. I gather that one member of the permanent board has to sit on a regional assessor board which is appointed. It seems as though the hon. the Minister needs a larger permanent board in this particular case because they have to deal with hundreds of wage determinations. They are always years behind with their work. By the time they publish a recommendation it is already out of date because of inflation.

Oh, come on!

Well, I believe that is true.

Of course, it is true.

It is true, yes.

You know it is the exception that really proves the rule.

Yes, but I hope the hon. the Minister will admit that sometimes when a wage board determination is published it is in force for five years.

Three years.

Well, it can be longer than that. By the time the five years have expired . . .

There is normally a revision every two or three years.

Yes, but it takes so long that by the time it is revised it is already out of date again. I do not believe, however, that the way to speed up the recommendations and final determinations of the Wage Board is by repealing the provision to necessitate publication in the Government Gazette thus allowing the people concerned to take a good look at the position and lodge further objections. I believe the way to do it is . . .

Of course, they do have the opportunity of discussing the whole matter concerning wages with the board before publication takes place. They do actually have the opportunity of discussing the matter and, if necessary, to lodge objection. I believe they are given ample opportunity. The fact is, however, that this specific aspect has met with the approval of the vast majority of labour unions. I happen to know this. That is why I say that the exception in the one case referred to by the hon. member may be proving the rule as far as the majority are concerned.

I am not saying that this proves or disproves the rule. The hon. the Minister, however, did make a categorical statement that nobody had objected to this.

Well, I did not know of any objections.

I accept that, of course. However, I did want to draw the attention of the hon. the Minister to the fact that a large union actually has very strong objections to the removal of the need to publish in the Government Gazette.

Mr. Chairman, we raised this point during the Second Reading debate on this Bill and, in his reply to that debate, the hon. the Minister referred to this matter and discussed the reasons for the refusal, namely, that this is going to expedite the work. Obviously, we would want to see that. However, it is disturbing. As I pointed out during the Second Reading debate, publication in the Gazette has been the practice for many years. We have now had this information from the hon. member for Houghton and, although for obvious reasons we cannot move an amendment—we cannot simply negative this clause—we are not at all satisfied so far that we should go ahead with this repeal unless the hon. the Minister can give us some further information.

Mr. Chairman, I should just like to say that the deletion of section 13 is in accordance with the recommendation of the commission. The commission had every opportunity to investigate this matter fully. In fact, everybody had the fullest opportunity to give evidence before the commission on this point.

†Actually, therefore, this provision is in line with the recommendations of the commission itself. I do not think it is necessary for us to discuss the matter any further. I may say that I do not think that there is any foundation in the arguments of the hon. member. I do not think any valid point was raised. I want to say again that I think exceptional circumstances have been mentioned here. However, if his argument proves to have some foundation, we can always come back next year. At the moment, however, I am satisfied that we are doing the right thing and I am also satisfied that I am not depriving the people concerned of the opportunity to discuss the matter and to have full access to all the information before publication takes place. As a matter of fact, this matter has been discussed with the labour unions concerned. Naturally, if one has a discussion with the people concerned and one straightens out all the negative points with such a labour union, when one then produces a final report it cannot be argued by such people that they did not have an opportunity to discuss the matter. That is actually what is happening here. We are delaying the final publication and this simply means that the people affected are going to lose something. Those people are the workers and they are going to lose money.

Well, I am concerned about the possible loss of rights which they now have.

Mr. Chairman, I just want to tell the hon. the Minister that we are very glad indeed that he has extended the victimization section to include the unregistered unions as well. I think this is a very important step forward and I should like to have that on record.

Mr. Chairman, clause 21 repeals section 28 of the principal Act. I want to say that a comment I made in this regard during the Second Reading debate was one of the very few comments to which the hon. the Minister did not reply although I must admit that he replied very fully indeed to all the other questions we raised. This provision deals with the compulsory registration of employers. In seeking to rationalize the work of the Wage Board the hon. the Minister has sought to scrap this compulsory registration with the motivation that the information will be available from other sources. It is quite obviously to the advantage of the Wage Board to scrap any unnecessary administrative work and anything that holds up the work of the Wage Board. It is, however, another thing entirely not to be in possession of knowledge that will enable the Wage Board to do its work satisfactorily. The reason given by the hon. the Minister and also set out in the explanatory memorandum that employers simply have not completed the forms is, I believe, hardly justification for this. I should like to be assured by the hon. the Minister that this information is available. If that is the case, then I am satisfied.

Mr. Chairman, it is difficult to get the information from the companies concerned, although we can get the information from other sources. I am satisfied that we do get the information although we get it the other way round.

Mr. Speaker, I move subject to Standing Order No. 56—

Mr. Speaker, I will be very brief. In the Second Reading debate I said that the measure before the House must be regarded as a milestone in legislation involving workers in South Africa, and I want to underline that. The information given to us by the hon. the Minister in his reply simply confirms that. I took a guess when I said the figure was approximately 100 000 and obviously that was a slight exaggeration because the hon. the Minister now says that 87 300 people are being subjected to sex discrimination. That is a considerable number of people to be affected by a differential scale over which they have no control simply by virtue of their sex. Women in industry and commerce have for years been waging a battle in many countries to obtain equal reward for work of equal value, and I want to stress again that we on this side of the House welcome this movement towards doing away with discrimination in the workplace in South Africa. We have stressed the necessity for this and we are delighted that this legislation has now been introduced. I also trust that what the Department of Manpower Utilization has done in this regard will serve as an example to the private sector because there is no doubt whatsoever that discrimination on the grounds of sex and, indeed, race and colour, still exists in South Africa. There are employers who hide and have hidden behind Government legislation in the past, but the introduction of this Bill now leaves them without any cover, and I am delighted. I hope that the employers of South Africa will learn from this step now being taken by the Department of Manpower Utilization in terms of moving away. We have of course to use the term “moving away” as we also heard from the hon. the Minister that there are 35 of these determinations still in existence and that it will be approximately two to three years before the goal of no discrimination on the basis of sex is reached. But the important thing that we have stressed is that we are on the right road. No one can expect the position to be transformed overnight, that we concede immediately. We are, however, glad that we are on the right road and we want to stress that this is something that ought not only to be welcomed but also to serve as an example for the rest of industry in South Africa because, as the hon. member for Houghton pointed out, there are thousands more women who are being discriminated against, some in very senior positions in commerce, industry and in professions. I hope that this kind of legislation will serve to spur on many others.

There is another aspect I want to raise in this Third Reading debate, and that is the extension of the protection against victimization. I underlined this in the Second Reading debate and will therefore not delay the House by discussing it any further, but this now extends to those who are not members of registered trade unions. The fact that this covers members of unregistered trade unions means a tremendous amount. It may not appear to mean very much to those of us sitting in this House this evening, but there are workers who have been victimized in the past—the hon. the Minister knows it and we all know it—and the fact that they are now being given protection can only augur well for industry and the economy of South Africa. We therefore support the Third Reading of the Bill.

Mr. Speaker, throughout the debate everybody concentrated on the most important change in the Bill, namely the phasing out of discrimination between the sexes. In the position South Africa is in at present, we had no choice but to eliminate this existing difference, because I think the economy demands it of us. In this day and age I think it is no more than right, too, because in all sectors of the economy women are coming forward to take their places on the high level as well as on the low level of manpower utilization. Therefore it is only right that we should be fair and just to women. If they do the same work as men, we should not begrudge them the same rewards.

Today more and more women are becoming the breadwinners.

Hear, hear!

If the woman is the breadwinner in a family, there is no reason why she should be discouraged by receiving a lower wage or salary.

How about separate taxation too?

I think it is time to admit that the life expectancy of women is really a little better than that of men and that women must remain active members of the work force for a longer period than the Act or custom has hitherto allowed. I should like to just underline this by saying further that I think it is a deficiency which we must not only admit and rectify for the sake of the rights of women, but for the sake of the economy of South Africa as well. I agree with everybody who endorses the fact that this is an important step forward.

Congratulations! You have done something right for a change.

Mr. Speaker, I move—

Permit me to sketch briefly the function of the Physical Planning Branch of the Office of the Prime Minister, in regard to which certain responsibilities and duties have been entrusted to me.

The Republic’s growing population has made increasing demands on the country’s non-replaceable resources. With a view to the optimum utilization thereof, and in order to ensure orderly development of the soil which will enable the various population groups to uphold and develop their distinctive identities, co-ordinated overall physical planning is being undertaken.

Initially this fell under the former Department of Environmental Planning and Energy, and in view of the rationalization of central government services, the physical planning function was taken over by the Physical Planning Branch of the Office of the Prime Minister. In this way the Government is advised with regard to effective utilization of the soil and natural resources, and planning and development projects are initiated and evaluated, always mindful of the possible influence thereof on the political, economic, social and security aspects of our country. As regards organization, the Physical Planning Branch is divided into two components, namely land use determination and spatial development co-ordination. Despite representing two clearly defined fields of activity, the two sections are complementary in striving towards and achieving the objectives to which I have referred.

The Land Usage Determination section is chiefly concerned with spatial planning at an overall level and the drafting of statutory guide plans.

The first step in the effort to establish an orderly and effective physical framework at the national level was taken in 1965 when the National Physical Development Plan was drawn up. For purposes of planning and development the country was divided into 42 regions, including four metropolitan areas, and guidelines were laid down in respect of the desirable and foreseeable national physical development structure. An effort was made to specify the role and functions of the various regions within the national framework, taking into account the hierarchic order of cities and towns.

With regard to the on-going revision of the National Physical Development Plan, it is the responsibility of the Planning Advisory Council to ensure that the needs and endeavours of the population in the broader context are taken into account. The board consists of representatives of the public, private and academic sectors.

The aim of involving the public in the planning process at all times is pursued at the regional level by a system of regional development associations and regional development advisory committees. At present there are 35 regional development associations and six regional development advisory committees.

Physical/spatial development planning, as an integral part of comprehensive development planning, is undertaken on a broad national basis for specific areas and regions. Moreover, guidelines and guide plans are drawn up to indicate on what soil the main elements and activities should be placed so that the envisaged development may be best accommodated and served in the best possible way. It has to serve as a basis for government bodies to draw up guide plans, master plans and other more detailed landuse plans. The guide plan action, a product of the implementation of the Environmental Conservation Act, is at present playing an important role in land-use planning.

The Development Co-ordination section has the task of overall co-ordination of the interpretation and implementation by various bodies of planning guidelines, in order to ensure the purposeful execution of statutory directives and to promote coordinated development by all development bodies.

Existing and proposed development plans and budgets of government bodies and the private section are therefore analysed with a view to their implications for spatial development. Where necessary, soil development programmes are drawn up to ensure that physical aspects are given effect to in a co-ordinated fashion. To be able to evaluate the spatial structuring and development on an on-going basis, an industrial data bank is being established with specialized information relating to agriculture, mining, manufacturing, construction, trade, transport, financing and services.

This evaluatory function is supplemented by a wide variety of consultations with regard to development by public as well as private bodies. Several hundred consultations and evaluations take place annually concerning inter alia township development, group areas, basic infrastructure, industrial establishment, business rights, recreation and holiday resorts and subdivision of agricultural land.

Programmes of important development agencies are analysed constantly with a view to overall co-ordination and timely support of priority projects in a regional context, in order to ensure optimal utilization of scarce resources.

To come back to the Bill before the House, in regard to which an explanatory memorandum is already in hon. members’ possession, I should like to point out that since the original Act was promulgated in 1967, there have been a number of changes in several spheres. There has been a growing need for a co-ordinating and even creative Government organ capable of laying down guidelines and, by means of sound planning, establishing land use patterns so as to prevent the occurrence of future problem situations as far as possible. It is clear, then, that in order to adapt to changing circumstances the Act must be adapted, as has indeed been done on a number of occasions in the past.

These amendments are primarily aimed at giving practical effect to the guide plan action and committing the State to the provisions of the guide plan and also to the freeing of the Office of the Prime Minister from the implementation of control measures at the microlevel, viz. the lower levels.

Provision is made in the Bill for two new sections: Firstly, one to the effect that the State shall also be bound by certain provisions, in particular sections 4 and 6A of the Act; and, secondly, one to the effect that any provision of the Act may, by way of a proclamation issued by the State President, be assigned to any Minister or Administrator.

It may be asked why it is necessary to take so drastic a step to commit the State to the provisions of a guide plan. As you know, Sir, the State is not usually bound by its own legislation, except in cases where an Act specifically makes provision for that. Through guide plan action an effort is being made to regulate land uses, and any deviation therefrom due to action taken by a Government body which does not recognize the guide plan will not only upset the planning of the region but also frustrate its objectives.

As far as the second insertion is concerned, there are a number of sections that are exclusively concerned with aspects of control and do not fit into the new framework of the Office of the Prime Minister as a co-ordinating and policy-forming government organ. In view of the expertise which has been attained over the years with regard to these control measures they are still being administered by that office, but in due course they will have to be transferred to other departments or administrations, most of which do not yet have legislation to accommodate the measures in question.

The amendments proposed in respect of the existing sections have no far-reaching implications. Most are aimed at streamlining the procedures as laid down in the Act. The most important of these is that relating to the guide plan action.

†In view of the present function of the Office of the Prime Minister as an umbrella planning institution, a guide plan should be a broad land use policy statement in which the future land use pattern is laid down. Detailed matters regarding the implementation of the plan, for instance whether a certain land use is compatible with the guide plan, should be left to the executive authorities.

At present the public participates in the guide plan action on two occasions, namely at the commencement and again when the draft guide plan is published for public comment. Thereafter it is in the hands of the officials who were responsible for the compilation of the guide plan to advise the Director General in respect of all the representations received. To ensure that differences of opinion concerning a draft guide plan which cannot be solved by the guide plan committee are attended to by an adjudicator, provision is being made for an independent investigating committee.

Experience has shown that an important document such as a guide plan tends to lead to speculation. To dispel any misconceptions as regards the creation of rights in terms of a guide plan, it is of the utmost importance to indicate clearly that the different land uses identified in a guide plan do not create any rights until the necessary approval in terms of all relevant legislation has been obtained.

One of the consequences of the proposed amendment is that the provincial administrations will now be able to compile development plans for areas situated outside the planning scheme areas of local authorities. These development plans will be correlated by the Office of the Prime Minister to ensure that they are not inconsistent with the principles contained in the guide plan.

A shortcoming in the present legislation which is now being remedied is that persons conducting quarrying operations without the necessary permit authority can in future be directed to restore the land in question.

Before closing, I must point out that whilst in the explanatory memorandum it is stated that clause 11 refers to the short title of the Bill, it is in fact contained in clause 13. This mistake is due to the fact that the memorandum had to be printed before the Bill was completely finalized. I apologize for that.

Mr. Speaker, I have given a brief outline of the Bill, and I am convinced that the measures, if passed by Parliament, will make a substantial contribution to orderly development and land uses in the Republic.

Mr. Speaker, we on this side of the House have for a long time argued that environmental planning was so vital for the existence of a nation, a country, a sound economy and of a healthy people, that it should receive a much higher priority than was the case in the past. In fact, we have often argued that environmental planning should be directly under the control of the hon. the Prime Minister and that it should serve as a co-ordinating discipline, co-ordinating many of the other disciplines for which various Ministers in the Government are responsible. We have also said that the extent to which a country is prepared to protect and to preserve its natural resources in order to ensure its survival and its future is a test of civilization. From that point of view, in a general sense, we obviously welcome this legislation and we will support it. However, we have a number of comments and questions which, I am sure, the hon. the Minister will be able to enlighten us on.

I think the Government is aware—it has often been brought to their attention—that in the past this country has seen many examples of where poor development, bad planning and irresponsibility on the part of authorities—particularly certain local authorities and industrial developers—have resulted in tremendous destruction of the environment of our country. They have also resulted in incorrect land usage and the destruction of natural resources, very often irrecoverable natural resources.

Wherever one goes in this country one will see beautiful mountain sides defaced by quarries. We have many examples where mining operations, for instance, where people mine for sand, clay or slasto, have left very ugly scars on our landscape. We also have other examples. One was reported in the newspaper recently where a very important ecological marsh has been filled with gypsum from the factories at Richards Bay that will in future be pumping that gypsum into the sea. I think the people from Natal will be aware of that instance. Examples of bad planning and of short-sighted actions of this nature abound in our country and it is high time that action was taken to prevent this sort of thing in the future.

One of the characteristics of the concept of progress in the past was the extent to which one covered one’s surface area with tarmac or concrete. It was a picture of progress but today ecologists, modern planners and modern environmental scientists are starting to realize that that is the very opposite, the very antithesis, of progress. One of the most valuable resources that we have is our soil. It is the most valuable and the most vital asset for the future of our people because it is from that soil that we shall have to get the food that will be needed to sustain a healthy and happy nation in the future.

One of the most important aspects of planning should be to avoid the misuse of the soil reserves of one’s country. In fact, I would say that the highest priority that rests on a Government is the protection of the soil as the most important of its natural resources. I do not want to say that the other things are not important. Obviously, the prevention of the pollution of the atmosphere, the preservation of one’s water resources and the preservation of one’s marine estuaries and the rivers, are obviously extremely important from many points of view. However, the protection of one’s soil reserves is most important and that is why the control of land usage is so vital.

Land can be destroyed in many ways; for instance, by the incorrect siting of residential development but particularly by the incorrect siting of factories with the consequent destruction that results from the dumping of factory wastes and from air, water and other forms of pollution. The concept that action should be taken to curtail the activities of irresponsible developers in industry and that those loopholes that existed in the legislation in the past, where developers could in fact find a loophole, e.g. the consent that is granted by local authorities for industrial development that does not comply with the legislation, will now be closed, is a good one. I think it is high time that that was done and we in fact welcome this development. We as a party often criticize the Government and we take a very strong line against Government interference in the freedom of free enterprise to develop their activities and to make the best possible use of their talents and of their assets and opportunities. However, there is one field in which we support the Government and that is the responsibility of the Government to see to it that private enterprise, the developers, and any authority, Government authority as well, will not under any circumstances act in a way which brings about irreparable harm to the ecology that is very often far greater than the temporary advantage that flows from their particular activities.

I should now like to say a few words about one aspect of the legislation. I want to inquire from the hon. the Minister whether this legislation still has a racialistic content. The first thing I want to refer to is the hon. the Minister’s Second Reading speech and particularly to paragraph 3 of that speech where he used the following words—

We had hoped that when it came to the environmental planning of South Africa only the technical considerations would apply; in other words, that the planning would be aimed at utilizing and protecting the environment in the best interests of South Africa’s peoples and of the country as a whole. We had hoped that that would be the general philosophy that would apply and that this sort of legislation would not be aimed at introducing a racial content in South Africa. In other words, I was hoping that the Government would start moving away from the concept that one must strictly determine and prescribe where people of different colour shall live, work and enjoy the normal amenities of a normal civilization. But here we have the hon. the Minister talking about “eie identiteit”.

*What on earth has this to do with spatial ordering? What does it have to do with where one has to work, live and that sort of thing? I do not believe it is possible to preserve or protect one’s identity on such a basis. Quite the contrary is true. I believe that if it is the Government’s objective to preserve the identity of the population groups in South Africa, it can only do so if that identity is divorced from legislative measures of this nature; in other words, a cultural group, a nation, will preserve its identity on a voluntary basis only under circumstances where it is not compelled to do so at the expense of the rights and privileges of other groups in the same society.

Order! Apart from the sentence in the hon. the Minister’s speech to which the hon. member referred, is there anything in the Bill to justify what the hon. member is saying?

Mr. Speaker, I know that you cannot wait to hear where I find a reason in the Bill to ask this question, but in the Bill on page 4 the proposed new section 2(2) states—

Now, that may sound very innocent, but that may be a very innocent part of the legislation. It may even be so that it will have nothing to do with the race, or colour of a person. On the other hand, however, long years of experience of the actions of this Government leads one to be suspicious and justifies the asking of the question whether this refers to the colour or the race of people. Can it be used to determine that people of colour should be restricted with regard to where they live or work or enjoy the normal amenities of civilization. In other words, I should like to know whether we are returning now to the concept of allowing an industry in a certain area provided it only employs a certain number of Black people, and provided the relationship between . . .

The measure that will be applied in such instances is contained in section 3 of the principal Act.

But I want to know whether that reference relates to that kind of philosophy. Is it the same philosophy which gave rise to that part of the legislation? Or are we possibly going to move away from it?

Order! I believe the hon. member is justified in asking that question. However, he may not discuss the philosophy behind it because that may give rise to a whole debate on this matter. That is something I cannot permit.

Mr. Speaker, what I also would like to know from the hon. the Minister is whether he could indicate to us the extent to which he and the department for which he is responsible are going to monitor applications for the establishment of industries, and applications for rezoning in terms of industrial and other rights? How vigilant is the department going to be and what criteria is it going to apply? In other words, to what extent is this department going to see to it that the real fundamental environmental requirements are taken care of and that the environment is fully and effectively protected? Why I ask this is because of the very wide scope of the Bill regarding that aspect. The Bill gives a huge discretion to the hon. the Minister and to the department, as well as to other authorities to whom he may delegate the right to take decisions. The proposed new section 4(1)(a) stipulates that rights can be granted in connection with the utilization of a specific natural resource. What really delights us is the stipulation in the proposed new section 4(1)(b), which concerns the establishment of a nature area. In this respect we agree with the hon. the Minister all the way.

I should, however, like to quote from the explanatory memorandum on this Bill. The first paragraph on page 5 of the memorandum reads as follows—

I do not disagree with this. It obviously is a basic right, and evidently it is also in the country’s interest that these rights should be extended when and where it is necessary and feasible. It is, however, such a bland statement of intention that one gets the impression that it overrides environmental considerations. What I should therefore want to hear from the hon. the Minister is this. He should state clearly that in every application dealing with the exploitation of such rights, the environmental considerations will turn the scale and will be measured on an equal basis with all other considerations. They should in other words take a very high priority, and when a decision is taken it should not be a foregone conclusion that where a mineral is being exploited, environmental considerations will take second place. If that is the case, we might as well not have this legislation. Then it would only mean that every single application that is received will go through the normal process, but ultimately the permission of the Minister will be granted. I should like the hon. the Minister to spell out clearly, so that all developers and the country as a whole know, that when any application of this nature is made, it will be measured against the very high priority requirements of the protection of the environment, which is in the broad, general interest of the country and all its people.

In this Bill there is also the provision— something we have asked for on many, many occasions—that this legislation should be made applicable to State departments too; in other words that it should not apply only to developers in private enterprise. Thus Government departments, it is proposed, shall also be subject to the provisions of the legislation. In the past it has always been the case that the South African Railways and the people who build harbours and provincial administrations could do virtually what they wanted to do. If they wanted to excavate a quarry, they did so and were not responsible to anybody. If they wanted to destroy the environment, they could do what they liked. Just the other day there was a discussion in the House about people wanting to put a railway line through the Oribi Gorge. Examples abound of State authorities doing exactly as they please, not being subject to any controls whatsoever, particularly not to the controls that exist for private individuals and private organizations. In this legislation, to a certain extent, Government departments are now being subjected to such controls. I want to ask the hon. the Minister, however, whether that control goes far enough because there are still certain exceptions. There is still, for instance, the exception applying to provincial administrations, the Railways Administration and the National Transport Commission. In the event of the construction of a public road or a railway line, an exception can be made if a quarry needs to be established for that purpose. I think, however, that that defeats the object of the legislation because the least the hon. the Minister should require—it does not matter who is involved—is that in every case of this nature authority be obtained from the department. His department has the environmental planners available, people who are in a position to establish what impact such a development will have on the environment. They will be in a position to take an independent view; in other words an unbiased view. They will be able to look at the pro’s and the con’s and to advise the hon. the Minister intelligently on whether such development should take place. It is no good going to the Railways and asking them whether they think there should be a quarry in a particular area. Of course they will think that there should be a quarry because it will suit them to think so from an economic point of view etc. It is only an independent authority that is able to look at both sides of the story and to take fully into consideration the requirements necessary for the protection of the environment, that can advise the hon. the Minister adequately and intelligently in cases such as this. I think the hon. the Minister should try to apply the legislation in that way.

Then, of course, there is also the provision that the State will not be subject to any criminal liability. I think this may possibly involve an interesting legal argument which I shall not enter into now. We on this side of the House will, however, support this legislation. We shall establish to what extent the legislation meets the requirements. In fact, we shall monitor its application in years to come and, if we find that it is inadequate—-in other words, if it becomes obvious that the legislation has failed in its main objectives— we shall bring this fact to the hon. the Minister’s attention. At this stage, however. I should like to point out to the hon. the Minister that we feel that despite the fact that the legislation will go a long way towards meeting the requirements, there are still some weaknesses in certain areas where I think the legislation is going to fail in the final analysis.

The last point is that legislation, no matter how good it is in its intentions, can only succeed if the Minister and the department concerned are determined to see to it that it succeeds and if the Minister and his department are fully aware of and fully committed to the fundamental purpose of that legislation. I think that the fundamental purpose to which the Minister and his department should be committed is that in all future development and planning the requirements of the protection of the environment, which is the most vital aspect for the future of this country and its people, should always receive very high priority and be taken into consideration to the fullest possible extent in any decisions that may emanate from him and his department.

Mr. Speaker, I rise to assure the hon. the Minister of the wholehearted support of this side of the House. When the hon. member for Bryanston began to speak I thought that this was one occasion on which I should be able to say that I agreed with him wholeheartedly, particularly when he spoke about the importance of environmental planning, but alas; I could not agree with him for long. The first half of his speech was exceptionally responsible, something which in fact is alien to the hon. member, but then, unfortunately, he had to give a colour connotation to a Bill in which there is absolutely nothing to create the impression that it will be abused for colour preference or colour purposes. Unfortunately the fact is that the hon. member will always use the opportunity to sow suspicion if he thinks he can derive political advantage from doing so.

Did you listen to the Minister’s introductory speech or did you not?

I certainly did. What is more, I made notes as he went along.

*Unfortunately that is what we have come to expect of the hon. members. However, I shall leave the matter at that. I am sure the hon. the Minister will react to that effectively.

There are two important aspects of this Bill. One is, as the hon. the Minister mentioned in his speech, that the demands made on our country’s non-replaceable resources are a matter of great importance. The second is the planning which must form the basis of future development. There are parts of our country, particularly the developing parts, where deviations from planning sometimes occur and then, of course, there are also parts which have yet to be properly planned. One of the dangers is that in certain areas concessions may sometimes be made or permission granted particularly for the use of land for industrial purposes. It is dangerous to allow this, because sometimes it is not in the interests of the region in question to do so. Here I have in mind in particular “offensive trades”—the Afrikaans expression is “hinderlike ondememings”. This kind of trade can sometimes be established by way of a concession, and once it is established it may be found to be a problem in that area. Some of the industries can cause unpleasantness, for example odours. However, once such an industry has been established it is a problem to have it reestablished elsewhere and to rectify the situation there. Accordingly, proper advanced planning is essential.

This Bill provides that conditions may be laid down in respect of the use, re-use and, of course, the restoration of land. I cannot see what is so dangerous or sinister about granting the Minister the power to specify conditions. In this way the widening of the provisions in respect of the use of land is ensured. In the normal course, advanced planning is carried out in municipal areas, but unfortunately, in urban areas planning cannot always be carried out without taking into account the surrounding rural areas. If there is to be proper planning the two must go hand in hand. Therefore guide plans are vital. They will ensure control in the future. Such planning is absolutely imperative for meaningful development in all regions, both urban and rural. The possibilities of an area must at all times be taken into account, for example the utilization of resources, and the needs of the people must never, of course, be overlooked. This Bill provides, in the first place, that simple guidelines be laid down at Governmental level for the planning and use of a certain region. This will ensure that in the future, too, such a region will be utilized and used at Governmental level. As I have said, these are simple guidelines. At the second level, the Administrator comes into the picture, and here the details of those plans are thrashed out in co-operation with the local authorities concerned. When such a plan is drawn up, the provincial administration and those of its local authorities that are affected will see to it that the rural areas and the city accommodate one another properly, particularly here in the Cape where we have vast divisional council areas. The lack of proper guide plans can result in delays. In the first instance, delays in guide plans can also cause problems, for example losses for owners and for the authorities. Nowadays the escalation of costs can result in skyrocketing costs of providing the infrastructure for development, particularly for townships, particularly if we call to mind the provision of services such as roads and so on.

In the course of his speech the hon. the Minister referred to speculation. When a region is on the point of being planned, and while planning is taking place, there will always be those people who will try to make use of the opportunity to derive great advantage from the part that they may possess. Nor will it be the first time that certain properties have exchanged owners to give that region an increased value, and when the planning eventually takes place, that transaction is used as a basis for future transactions. A guide plan must ensure the widest possible participation—this is a very important aspect of it, and that, as I have said, is why the Bill provides that the government and the provincial authorities play a part in this regard. However it goes further than that. Administration boards must also play a part. It is already the case in the four metropolitan areas that the administration boards are involved in planning, because the areas falling under their jurisdiction are so much part of the city or of that community that one cannot exclude them from the planning process. The Bill also provides that the other organizations, for example the suppliers of power, water and so on, are also involved. However, what is of great importance is that the guide committee, which in the past was appointed by the Minister, can now be appointed by the Director-General. I do not have any fault to find with the existing system, but it does happen that changes occur in these committees, particularly as far as members of the city council is concerned. Some of them are replaced. Some of them do not make themselves available for reelection. Some of them are not re-elected. It is therefore as well that in the majority of cases the city councils see to it that their permanent officials as well as some of their elected members serve on these committees so that there may be continuity at all times. Therefore it is appropriate that the Director-General should have the right in terms of the provisions of this Bill to appoint members. I should like to see this occurring more rapidly than has perhaps been the case in the past.

When a guide plan is drawn up, it will not necessarily enjoy unanimous approval. When one is dealing with people, one always has difficulties. We do not all see the matter in the same light, and as a result there will be dissatisfaction. Some people will always tend to expect of such a guide plan that it will meet with their personal wishes and perhaps create rights and privileges for them which did not exist before.

And disadvantages too.

The plan may involve disadvantages for them. In any event, I do not think it is reasonable to expect that their personal wishes should be satisfied by means of that plan. Just as he has an opportunity to record objections if his wishes are not satisfied, equally there is an opportunity for him to record his objections if his interests are prejudiced—I am still coming to that. It is very clearly stated that whatever the plan may contain, every owner in that area must be subject to the requirements of the existing Acts. He must at all times comply with the requirements of the existing Acts.