Order! In terms of Standing Order No. 14, I have to inform this House that Mr. Speaker is unavoidably absent.

Mr. Speaker, the hon. member for Berea began his speech yesterday by saying that fuel prices in South Africa were high because of our racial policy. Of course this is utter nonsense, especially in view of the fact that I have already made it quite clear to the hon. member in the past that airlines throughout the world have notched up a total deficit of $3 000 million, whereas the S.A. Airways is one of the soundest airlines in the world. But hon. members of the official Opposition keep on alleging that it is because of our racial policy that fuel in South Africa is so expensive. Throughout the world fuel prices are posing problems for airlines. The aircraft of the S.A. Airways do not make domestic flights only. They also take in fuel at places such as New York, London and elsewhere. We can therefore compare fuel prices in South Africa with those elsewhere in the world.

In this regard I should just like to refer to a report which appeared in Beeld, one of our own newspapers. In connection with airfares the specific newspaper pointed out that a single flight from Johannesburg to Cape Town over a distance of 1 271 km would now cost R125, whereas a flight over the same distance in Australia already cost R178. I know that hon. members opposite always maintain that we cannot compare the prices in different countries. But when they say that we have to pay more for our fuel because of our domestic policy, I just want to point out that a flight in the USA, over the same distance as that between Johannesburg and Cape Town is exactly 28% more expensive than it is here. To fly from Cape Town to Port Elizabeth costs R83. A flight over the same distance costs R112 in France. So when we compare airfares in South Africa with overseas fares, it appears that our fares are well below the general world prices.

Yesterday hon. members of the Opposition kept harping on the question of why we do not want to supply Zimbabwe with diesel locomotives. The hon. member Dr. Welgemoed gave a detailed exposition of our relations with African countries in this regard. Is it wrong for me to tell Mr. Joshua Chinamano of Zimbabwe that we are prepared to help him and that we must discuss matters? If he does not want to talk to me he can talk to the hon. the Minister of Foreign Affairs or even to the hon. the Prime Minister. The matters we must discuss are for example the role played by the ANC in Zimbabwe, and the presence of terrorist bases in that country. Is it wrong to want to co-operate with a country, even if it has just been reproaching you about the amount of your country’s rolling stock it has in comparison with its own rolling stock in your country? Is it wrong of us to ask it in a friendly way to discuss matters with us? Why must the allegation now be made against us that because negotiations on these matters in the past were traditionally conducted between officials, it is not necessary for us to try and hold them at ministerial level now? Is it unfair of us to want to hold discussions with the Minister of Foreign Affairs of Zimbabwe? Cannot the hon. member for Berea speak like a South African just for once? [Interjections.]

The hon. member should not forget that his own child or the son of the hon. the Leader of the Opposition could be attacked by gangs sheltering in Zimbabwe. Is it then so very wrong for this Government to say not that diesel locomotives should be withheld from Zimbabwe but that an opportunity should be created to talk about matters of mutual interest? Why must I now be accused of trying to obstruct the supplying of aid to Zimbabwe and other countries in Africa?

It does not help us to keep on discussing these matters. We must also not forget that there are other people who are talking about this. For example I can quote what is being written about this in European countries. The German newspaper Der Spiegel is not favourably disposed towards us at all. It is a newspaper with millions of readers. However, that same newspaper wrote the following—

That was the point of this discussion—

Kaputo is of course a pun on the German word “kaput”, which means “finished”, “destroyed”, “ruined”. This is what the Germans themselves write. This is a translation of a report which appeared in Der Spiegel.

In Kaputo, a nickname used for Maputo by the East Germans … The East German soldiers in that city use this nickname for Maputo—

All I ask is whether we cannot hold discussions with these countries when the question of aid to them in the field of transport arises. The conclusion of this article is also interesting. It goes on to say—

So you give champagne to our enemies, do you? [Interjections.]

This is what the Germans themselves write. This is a serious matter. This is what is being written about our country in the outside world. And now the hon. member wants to make political capital here out of a few locomotives. I think I have said quite enough about this matter. It is a question of co-operation and it does not come from one side only.

The hon. member said we raised the tariffs by 40% over a period of 18 months. Surely he knows this is not the case. In actual fact we raised the tariffs by 40% over a period of 30 months. From 1970 to the present time we raised our tariffs by 76% and over the same period the wages of workers were increased by 178%. The hon. member for North Rand asked that hon. member to mention one country in the world where one can travel a kilometre for half a cent, where one can convey a Black worker 20 km for 10 cents. Show me a country which loses R628 million per annum on the conveyance of people by rail. He was dumbfounded because there is no other country where the Minister of Finance grants a subsidy of R280 million to convey people. Now the hon. member says that it is as a result of our policy that people have to travel long distances. Where must the people of Soweto live? Closer to Johannesburg? Can the hon. member tell me if the people of Soweto must live closer to their work? [Interjections.] This is not possible in practice in a country where you have the kind of growth we have in South Africa. When I was involved in discussions with Koo International in London the manager of that undertaking travelled 45 miles by train every day to work in London.

He chose to do so.

He did not. He told me that if he could only have found a place to stay that was closer to his work he would have lived closer, but he had to move to the outlying areas because there was such a congestion of people living in and around the city.

Mr. Chairman, may I ask the hon. Minister what they would have to pay for housing if the Blacks of Soweto were to live closer to Johannesburg?

That is a very intelligent question. If those hon. members had been in power today, what would they have done with the Blacks? Forget about separate residential areas. Surely there must be orderliness. People have to be conveyed. We are not the only country in the world with commuters. However, we are the only country in the world which conveys commuters at half-a-cent a kilometre.

The hon. member also referred to the computer centre. He said that we could have bought the building from Escom. That is not true. That building was not for sale.

†We could never buy the Escom building. It was not for sale. However, what did we do? We bought two buildings and we also decided to house the computer underground. We are still carrying on with the idea. Taking escalation into account, it will cost over R50 million to house the computer underground. But we have already bought the two buildings.

*In any case, that is enough about this hon. member.

The hon. member for North Rand asked for smaller periodic increases instead of one large increase. Sir, I say you do not give a child castor-oil every week. Give him one good dose and have done with. But if it is felt that we will get away with it if we increase the tariffs gradually, then I think the hon. member for North Rand has a good idea.

The hon. member for Amanzimtoti was replied to very thoroughly by the hon. member for Bellville. This hon. member replied to the hon. member for Amanzimtoti on financing point by point. The hon. member for Amanzimtoti spoke about the “cost of services”.

†He requested that the Railways should speed up the transition of tariffs based on the principle of what the traffic can bear to one of cost of service. It is the clear policy of the Railways to move as fast as possible to a cost-based tariff structure. The gap between high and low tariffs is narrowed with each tariff increase. Much has also been achieved by concluding contract tariffs in respect of high volume traffic which is based on cost of service. Likewise, all export tariffs are based on the same principle.

*The hon. member also spoke about own capital. In 1974 the Railways, this business undertaking, had 9% own capital and 91% borrowed capital. This has improved every year and today the ratio is 32% own capital and 68% borrowed capital.

This is the direction in which this Railways organization is moving. They speak of private enterprise in America, but try travelling by train there. With my own eyes I have seen mile upon mile of railway track overgrown with khaki-bush and burrweed. Regularly one hears of yet another railway undertaking in America which has gone bust. Here we have a semi-state organization which works with the Government for the good of the country. It is all very well to shout about private enterprise, but then I say: “Very well, my friend; convey the commuters as well.” Then we shall see how the prices rise. You cannot have it all one way.

I have said that the hon. member Dr. Welgemoed is a refined and cultured person.

†The hon. member for Walmer spoke about an alternative rail link through Swaziland. I want to tell the hon. member that I think we shall be signing the contract within the next month or two. This is a contract between our Government and the Swaziland Government to have a rail link between Komatipoort and Swaziland. The matter has practically been finalized and I have already had three discussions in this regard with the Swaziland Minister of Transport. I can give the hon. member the assurance that this is a good alternative route.

*The hon. member put a whole series of questions to me. I just want to say that I shall reply in writing to many of the questions which hon. members put to me.

The hon. member for Walmer also brought up the matter of the omelette on the aircraft, the “scrambled eggs in water”. I must just tell you that unfortunately I lost my temper on an aircraft the other day. The aircraft took off on time and flew from Durban to Johannesburg. The journey takes 35 minutes and breakfast was served. A man came to me and complained: “Look at this omelette. It is in water”. It had been frozen and then defrosted so there had to be a little water. Then I said to him: “Sir, do you want a feast or do you want to fly?” [Interjections.]

Is that how you treat your customers?

No, Sir, it was …

That is a very funny joke but you are playing for real.

Look, Sir, that hon. member never plays for real. [Interjections.] I have never insulted people the way that hon. member insulted my people. He said they wore skins. [Interjections.] If this is the game the hon. member wants to play, I can also play it.

Now I can see that you have been hurt.

That hon. member insulted my people. He always plays for the grandstand, and he never gets anywhere.

You are lying!

Mr. Speaker, on a point of order: Is the hon. member for Yeoville entitled to shout “You are lying” at the hon. the Minister?

Order! The hon. member for Yeoville must withdraw that.

I used the words and I withdraw them, but he is telling an untruth and he knows it. [Interjections.]

Order! The hon. member for Yeoville must withdraw that as well.

I withdraw it, Mr. Speaker.

The hon. the Minister may proceed.

You know whether what you are saying is true or not. [Interjections.]

Order! The hon. member may not say that. The hon. member must withdraw it.

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker: What is the hon. member not entitled to say?

The hon. member said: You know what is the truth.

That is correct. He knows what is the truth. Of course he does.

Order! The hon. member is suggesting that the hon. the Minister is telling a lie.

Mr. Speaker, are you suggesting that he does not know what the truth is? [Interjections.]

Order! I want the hon. member to withdraw that insinuation.

If you say that there is an insinuation, I withdraw it. The hon. the Minister does not know the truth.

The hon. the Minister may proceed.

Mr. Speaker, I really want to behave myself today.

Tell us what you are talking about.

I want to get away from this incident, Sir.

You can’t get away from it because I am going to keep you to it. You are stuck with it. [Interjections.]

Sir, I argued with that man on the aircraft and I made that remark. He did not take it up the wrong way but now that hon. member does. Sir, that is one of the lowest ways of seeking publicity. One must get publicity through one’s deeds. Do not try to get into the limelight by means of these witticisms and underhand methods. My standpoint on the constant discussion of the food served on aircraft was: What should the S.A. Airways do? Should we aim at a safe service? Our service is already one of the safest in the world. Should we aim at getting over 88% of the aircraft to depart on time? Should we aim at having happy and satisfied passengers because they reach their destinations on time or should a person be served breakfast within 35 minutes of having boarded an aircraft? I want to know whether it is not better to give a man boarding an aircraft a hotdog and tell him: When you reach your destination you can buy some coffee; here is 10c. Why make such a song and dance of this matter and kick up such a fuss about it?

You ought to be ashamed of your racism. I know racism is at the root of the trouble.

But surely you started this; you are the racist.

Harry is the biggest racist of all. [Interjections.]

The hon. member for Sunnyside discussed family planning. He asked the Opposition: Will you not rise one day and discuss family planning? We have to convey people and create employment opportunities. This is a norm of civilization and development if one looks at the children one has begotten—will one be able to feed them and provide them with employment? As far as I am concerned, family planning is not aimed at keeping one race behind another. If I father a child I want to know that that child will have an employment opportunity and food. It does not matter of what race or what colour one is; the principle applies to everyone. In this regard I agree with the hon. member for Sunnyside.

He also asked us to relieve the pressure on Durban harbour. The general cargo wharf at Richards Bay is not equipped with cranes. I think I should rather reply to the hon. member in writing.

The hon. member for Newton Park concentrated on harbours and in his speech he pointed out that we have kept abreast of developments as far as the handling of containers is concerned. He pointed out the speed at which we exchange containers and in this connection our harbours may be compared with harbours such as Rotterdam and Southampton. He found that the harbours of Durban, Port Elizabeth and Table Bay compare favourably with the best overseas as far as the handling of containers is concerned. I thank him for his speech.

The hon. member for Pietermaritzburg North put a number of questions to me.

†He wanted to know how many bursaries would be awarded to Blacks. Bursaries are not awarded on the basis of colour. All applications received from Blacks, Asians and Coloureds are considered together with those received from Whites and purely on merit. Can the hon. members opposite believe this? [Interjections]

The hon. member also wanted to know why Blacks were not placed in graded posts. A very considerable number—40 000 of our approximately 156 000 Black, Asian and Coloured employees—are already employed in graded positions.

He wanted to know whether there was a campaign to prepare White workers to accept that Blacks will be filling more and more posts at present filled by Whites. The filling of posts which would normally have been filled by Whites, had they been available, is done in close collaboration with our staff associations and this is a procedure which all our staff accept.

*The hon. member also discussed housing and referred to the position in regard to flats. I can tell him that the flats we built for Blacks in Umlazi were built for single Blacks. However, this was done in such a way that we can change those flats into dwelling units by moving the walls.

The hon. member for Kempton Park spoke about the attitude of the staff and inquired about an alternative landing place if we have snow at Jan Smuts Airport again. Of course the alternatives we can use will also give problems. One could perhaps have an alternative landing strip at Lanseria, but we may have snow there as well. We could also build a strip at Pretoria, but this would mean there will have to be a duplication of boarding platforms. The 747s as well as smaller aircraft will have to land there. We are giving attention to this aspect, but I feel that if we are seeking an alternative we should rather consider the Eastern Transvaal. [Interjections.]

The hon. member asked us why we do not grant concessions for late flights, and this is a very important question. Would you believe it, Sir, that people complain because the 18h00 flight from Cape Town to Johannesburg is fully booked. As a matter of fact there is a waiting list, but if it is pointed out to them that there is an aircraft leaving for Johannesburg at 21h30 they do not want to catch that flight because they will only arrive in Johannesburg at 23h30. They prefer to go back home and only leave for Johannesburg the next day. I feel that we should make after-hours flights which are not fully booked more attractive to businessmen. Perhaps such flights could be offered at a lower tariff. In this regard I agree with the hon. member, and the Management is giving this matter its attention. [Interjections.]

The hon. member for Kimberley South spoke about the staff associations.

I shall prefer not to react to what the hon. member for Greytown said because he spoke about green and blue buses and was rather confused. However, I do not hold it against him because it takes a while to get used to things here.

The hon. member for Langlaagte said the passengers pay only 40% of the costs. This is quite true. A quarter of a million passengers are conveyed from Soweto during peak periods, and this is the irony of this whole matter. From 06h00 to 08h30 the trains run continously, but from then until 17h00 they stand empty. The capital investment involved here causes the costs to soar. I frequently told farmers that if they bought combine harvesters they had to make sure that those harvesters were operated at peak capacity even if they had to do their neighbour’s harvesting as well, because they could not afford to spend R40 000 on a harvester and then use it for only three days a year while it stands idle for the rest of the time under the willow-tree. And this is unfortunately what is happening with the trains.

The hon. member for Durban Point put a great many questions and I can give a few examples of what we are doing to make train journeys more attractive, for according to him our people no longer travel by train. Inter alia, we have installed a system of computer bookings, there have been changes to the catering services and we are trying to get the trains to travel at higher speeds. Research has been undertaken in this connection and when my colleague here was still Minister of Transport he travelled at 210 kph in a train. I like this, and this is one of the things we are striving for to achieve. An improvement was also made to the information system for passengers and the layout of the compartments was changed. Some trains which undertake long journeys are going to be equipped with aircraft seats and in addition group and out-of-season concessions are being granted.

†We also have the “40-off” card for people above the age of 60 years. One of these days the hon. member for Durban Point will also qualify for that concession, and we will implement one for Helen at the age of 70 and over.

The hon. member for Durban Point also said that employees with 20 years or more service who were dismissed from the Service were finding it hard to make ends meet, and we are going into this matter. I wish to point out that we pay special attention to the case of an employee who is dismissed because of alcoholism, because it is a sickness, and I can assure the hon. member that we will be even more sympathetic in future. However, there is an opportunity for a man to appeal in certain of the instances that the hon. member mentioned. I will, however, give replies in writing to the hon. member on all the points that he raised. I have these replies with me, but the hon. member has his name in Hansard already. So why should I read it out here?

The hon. member for Bloemfontein North raised the matter of the pre-1973 pensioners. I said last night that we were going to investigate this matter because I feel sympathetic towards them. The hon. member referred to a man who receives a pension of only R103 per month, but that is due to the fact that he only has five or six years’ service. The pre-1973 pensioner who has had 20 or 30 years’ service receives considerably more, although I realize that they are in a far more difficult position than those pensioners who retired after 1973.

There are senior people who are getting only R200 or R300 per month.

The hon. member for Bloemfontein North said the Railways remains in contact with the private sector and the business community. One of the sectors with the least labour unrest is that of the workers of the S.A. Railways. We remain in contact with our workers and with the business community. Prior to the introduction of this budget I held discussions with Assocom, the Chambers of Commerce and all the people who quarrelled with me when I was still the Minister of Agriculture. I pointed out our problems to them to see how they would react. Even the Agricultural Union agreed with me provided I did not increase the railage on cattle.

The hon. member Mr. Vermeulen asked me a number of questions. I can tell him, inter alia, that the service bonus is pensionable. The thirteenth month cheque is also pensionable. The hon. member also spoke about a series of postage stamps depicting steam locomotives. The hon. the Minister of Posts and Telecommunications is here, and I think this is a splendid idea which we can take up with his department.

The hon. member also spoke of the Anne Smith locomotive standing in front of the Bloemfontein Station. The planning in connection with the shifting of this locomotive to another suitable site at one corner of the C. W. Malan building in west Harvey Street has already been completed. The shift will take place at the end of 1983. That is service for you! Yesterday evening the hon. member asked for the locomotive to be shifted and it will already be gone by the end of 1983. [Interjections.]

The hon. member for Green Point asked that we declare Walvis Bay a free harbour area. However, the declaring of Walvis Bay to be a free harbour is not a task for the South African Transport Services. It is the task for the Department of Finance, the Department of Industries, Commerce and Tourism, the Department of Internal Affairs and the Department of Foreign Affairs and Information. These are the people who have to decide on this. The hon. member also said we should develop Walvis Bay. However there is already a certain degree of development taking place at Walvis Bay which was approved by my predecessor. There are betterment works to the value of R9 million, including the rebuilding of berths 1, 2 and 3. There is also R1,2 million for the repair of harbour vessels and the quay. This has already been approved and construction work has begun.

This brings me in conclusion to the hon. member for Standerton. He made a wonderful plea for a training college at Volksrust. If only he had said at Standerton! But no, he made a plea for a training college at Volksrust. However, we already have all the facilities at other colleges. We shall discuss the matter with the hon. member, because it was a wonderful proposal for Volksrust. I shall return to this request.

Sir, I have replied to the series of questions put to me by hon. members. I must say the speeches of hon. members on this side of the House and also a few on that side were well-thought-out and well-prepared speeches. Every hon. member on my side of this House compelled my respect because the wonderful matter of our transport services was presented so positively, to the benefit of us all. I do not even know whether this measure need be referred to a Committee of the entire House, but if it does I believe that we shall get the same positive contributions during the Committee Stage.

Question put: That all the words after “That” stand part of the Question, Upon which the House divided:

Mr. Chairman, the hon. the Minister’s reply to the Second Reading debate in no way convinced me, particularly in regard to the major issues which I raised. I shall, however, reserve my comments on certain matters and particularly on the S.A. Railways’ contribution to the affairs of our neighbouring States for the Third Reading of this Bill tomorrow afternoon. While the House is in Committee on this Bill, there are a number of specific and perhaps unrelated matters I wish to raise with the hon. the Minister. There is, however, no point in raising them with the hon. the Minister if he is not listening to me. At the moment he is talking to the hon. the Minister of Agriculture and Fisheries. As I have said, I want to raise a number of specific and unrelated issues and I want to ask a number of questions.

In the first instance I want to refer to the mysterious Boeing 737 for VIPs. Reports appeared in the newspapers in June this year which were attributed sometimes to the hon. the Minister himself and sometimes to senior Airways spokesmen. Those reports carried the remarkable news that a 111-seater Boeing 737 is to be withdrawn from general service for the purpose of being converted for use by top-ranking members of the Government and other VIPs. What has happened about this hare-brained scheme? We have heard nothing about it since. I think this is the opportunity for the hon. the Minister to tell us something about it.

Fat Nats!

One wonders whether the report can really be taken seriously. At a time when there are complaints about the frequency and quality of our internal air services in circumstances which suggest that there must be a quick turn-around in the use of our aircraft and when our existing fleet is strained to the limit, one wonders whether it is really possible that the conversion of a Boeing 737 for use by the Government and the Cabinet is really being considered.

That is why the fares are going up.

I wonder whether the hon. the Minister could indicate whether in fact this is the intention. If so, what is the purpose of it all? What is the purpose of it all? What is the purpose of converting at this time an aircraft for this sort of use? A report in Die Burger of 17 June suggested that the Cabinet was very soon going to be in the clouds. Well, Sir, the Cabinet has been in the clouds for a very long time. If that is indeed the purpose of it, I say that it is a gross waste of taxpayers’ money. One report reads—

What is the result of those considerations? That is what we want to know. If the Government is really serious in this regard, I want to say that this is an exercise in the most severe extravagance one can imagine, extravagance we can ill afford and which makes nonsense of the Government’s attempts to curb the inflation rate in South Africa. If the Government is really serious about using an expensive aircraft of this kind for this purpose, I hope that, when the Government members are flying around in the clouds, they will spare a thought for the commuters and the other people who are having to pay increased fares as a result of Government policies. I want the hon. the Minister to give us an indication as to what really is the purpose of this and if this is really true, because this report was attributed to the hon. the Minister.

While I am on the subject of Airways I want to move to the Airways in general. The hon. the Minister will know that during the year serious complaints have been made, particularly by businessmen, relating to flight delays on the internal service and also relating to the sometimes casual attitude of the Airways towards the public when these delays occur. The hon. the Minister will know that as a result of formal complaints that were made during the year by organized commerce and industry in Durban, a meeting was arranged between senior officials of the S.A. Airways and members of those organizations to discuss those complaints. I want to know what the result of those discussions were. The report of the Chambers of Commerce on the meeting stated that the Deputy Chief Executive of S.A. Airways “acknowledged that S.A. Airways’ image had slipped and outlined steps being taken to improve its public relations, particularly in the area of communications”. The complaints were, as I say, related to delays that occurred and the complaints suggested that passengers were seldom told the reason for those delays or what the length of the delays would be. There were also other matters relating to the general facilities at the airports and the handling of passengers. I should like the hon. the Minister to tell us, as a result of those consultations, what new steps are being taken to improve the image of the Airways, particularly in so far as communication with passengers is concerned. One certainly acknowledges that in any major undertaking like S.A. Airways there have to be times when there are delays due to unforseeable circumstances. But it is important that when this sort of situation does take place, when the convenience of passengers is affected, that there should be good communication between the airline and passengers because I believe in those circumstances the airline can rely on a good deal of sympathy from the passengers, but when people are left around sitting at airports not knowing what is happening, that is where ill-feelings arise and people get concerned and angry.

On this theme I think one must also say that there is room, in my opinion, for improvement on the part of Airways’ staff and others on duty at airports. I think here for instance of police personnel and their attitude towards the public. One must say these things because we are talking about the image of the S.A. Airways. I do not know what training these people are given in their handling and dealing with the public, but one does sometimes feel that some of them at any rate, certainly not all of them, could well benefit from taking a Dale Carnegie course on how to win friends and influence people. I suggest that a little bit of extra courtesy, viz. a “good afternoon”, a “good morning”, a smile or something of that kind would make it much easier when dealing with the general public.

Now you are talking absolute rubbish.

I am not generalizing, but I am saying there is room for improvement. Are hon. members who are getting so upset suggesting that there is total perfection in this? May one not criticize in an attempt to improve a situation? However, I want to leave that matter there and now come to another matter relating to Airways.

This is the question that I raised with the hon. the Minister during the first week of this session regarding the employment of non-White air hostesses. The hon. the Minister has announced that the Administration is to train some non-Whites as air hostesses.

What does the hon. member for Sunnyside say about that?

The hon. member for Sunnyside does not like it. Generally, however, I think it has been welcomed by responsible and reasonable people around the country. I believe it is a perfectly logical step. The Airways is the only branch of the S.A. Railways that is totally integrated as far as passengers are concerned, and it is only reasonable therefore that those passengers should be served by people without restriction as to race. With regard to the hon. the Minister’s announcement earlier this year, when he answered questions that I had put to him, I am concerned when he tells me that there will be differential salary scales applying to these people as opposed to White air hostesses. Why the difference? Presumably these hostesses will have the same training; they will do the same work and they will be dealing with the same public. Surely, it is totally invidious. Why on earth should people involved in the same services have differentiated salary scales? [Interjections.] It does seem totally ridiculous that here, where there is a new service being opened up, or a part of a service being opened up for other race groups, the hon. the Minister should allow it to begin with a wage gap. It seems totally illogical. It seems totally invidious. It seems totally ridiculous. Why is it not possible for these young women to start on exactly the same salary scale as other people, bearing in mind that they have the same training and they are doing the same work? [Interjections.] I should like the hon. the Minister to answer this and to give me a reason why he is starting off with a wage gap when he has here a golden opportunity of dealing with the rate for the job and paying people what they are worth on merit.

Another question I should like to ask is on the matter of air hostesses. Will the hon. the Minister give us some indication about the present staff complement of air hostesses relating to their needs in the service? I have received reports that the intake of air hostesses is often excessive, as a result of which many of them are totally bored. They wait forever to go on flights. Last week I was told that some air hostesses were in fact lucky if they got one flight per week. The rest of the time their duties are divided. They are either flying or they are on standby, or otherwise they are on what is termed “the float”. When they are on stand-by I understand that they have to remain at the airport for some eight hours just in case they should be needed. If they are on float they have to remain near a telephone where they can be reached in case they should be needed. I should like to know whether this is not an example perhaps of an over-intake of air hostesses. My information is that there is dissatisfaction and boredom. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, the hon. member for Berea raised various matters. I listened to him attentively. I must say that I found it really entertaining to hear all his objections. The hon. the Minister will, of course, reply to him in full.

The hon. member made an allegation in connection with the luxury aircraft we are now going to acquire. That is, of course, a newspaper story. Consequently one might have expected him to elaborate on it in that way.

The hon. member for Berea mentioned the delay in flights. I do not know whether delays are quite so unique to the S.A. Airways. In fact, I myself have experienced delays overseas. Weather conditions often prevent aircraft from taking off. At times technical problems are experienced as well. For the sake of passenger security the aircraft in question are then kept on the ground. These factors, and many others, must be taken into account when we discuss flight delays. However, there is another important reason why delays occur. I again experienced this myself only last week. The longest delays are caused by passengers themselves. Some passengers arrive at the airport at the last moment. Often their baggage is already on board, and consequently the flight cannot depart for security reasons. Those guilty are for the most part passengers who dawdle in the bars and wander about elsewhere as well. In the end the S.A. Airways is once again blamed for the delays caused by such passengers. This is something which ought no longer to be allowed. Only last Friday we had to wait for two hours at the D.F. Malan Airport for a flight which had departed late from Johannesburg. Passengers were responsible for that delay.

They were Progs, of course.

Yes, they were the Progs. [Interjections.] It would teach those passengers a lesson if they were compelled to travel by train rather than by aircraft. They would then, of course, take far longer to reach their destination.

The hon. member for Berea referred here to the image of the S.A. Airways. Of course I believe that his reference to the Dale Carnegie course was completely misplaced. The staff of the S.A. Airways does not require any such course. They are some of the friendliest people I have ever met. Moreover some of the most beautiful women under the sun are air hostesses of the S.A. Airways. They are always friendly. The same applies to the male staff of the S.A. Airways. Never in my life have I encountered friendlier airways staff than the staff of the S.A. Airways. You can always laugh with them and they always smile back at you.

The hon. member also raised the question of salary scales. It makes no difference who is appointed, whether they be Asians, Blacks or Coloureds. One must first crawl before one can walk. These people cannot simply be paid these high salaries immediately. How long did the White members of staff not work before they achieved that status? They, too, had to start from the bottom.

Before I come to the discussion of the Railways, I should like to put this question to the hon. the Minister: Does the hon. the Minister know where the devil is at present? I should very much like to know where the devil is. I want to know where the Red Devil is. There was an occasion at the beginning of this year when the Red Devil was here at Salt River. It then fled and got up to its tricks in Kimberley. From Kimberley it went via Johannesburg. It did not go to Johannesburg. Eventually that Red Devil found itself in Capital Park in Pretoria. Many great things are going on there.

That Red Devil, which blows out its steam with such force and causes black thunder clouds at the Union Building and spits fire wherever it can, is the name of the locomotive which is going to save the S.A. Railways an amount of up to R80 000 per annum. This locomotive uses 35% less coal than the ordinary one. This 25 class locomotive is one of 140 in use in South Africa. It is more powerful and uses less water than the ordinary locomotive. This is an achievement. I am delighted that the General Manager, Dr. Loubser, is listening to this debate. He can become ecstatic when he discusses the achievements of his engineers. His father, too, designed a locomotive and worked in this industry as well. I want to say that this is an achievement for the South African engineers in the S.A. Railways. They went to carry out research on this Red Devil in Argentina and subsequently made adjustments and manufactured parts for it in the Salt River workshop.

It is this achievement which makes the S.A. Railways unique. This is the first project to be undertaken in South Africa. After having carried out tests on it for a year, they undertook the first trial run between Cape Town and Paarl. Then further tests were carried out at Kimberley, and subsequently the Red Devil went to Pretoria where it is to undergo further tests.

I just want to say that in my opinion this is only the beginning of great things. We, too, had the opportunity to accompany a former Minister of Transport and the General Manager on a trip during which we had to fasten our safety belts and I saw the speed rising to 180 km/h. At that stage I thought that that was very dangerous. However, the speed then rose again to 220 km/h. I just want to say that our being able to reach that speed on a rail gauge of 3 ft. 6 in is an achievement. The rails overseas are 4 ft. 8½ in wide and it is only now that increased speeds are being announced there. The maximum speed in Japan is 210 km/h, with point-to-point average of 163 km/h. In England the “advanced passenger train” operates at 210 km/h and then at 240 km/h. The French with their TGV operate at a speed of 300 km/h.

Consequently I say that what we have achieved here in South Africa is something which we cannot simply allow to pass unnoticed. I want to say that the problems of the high speed train industry are legion. If we consider the steering capacity those coaches must have, if we consider the load distribution, if we consider all the problems which have to be solved, then I want to say that these problems are not easily solved. We know that the question of suspension plays a very important part in a motor-car, but have we ever realized the role played by suspension when those heavy loads and long trains have to stay on the rails?

It is here that careful planning and excellent timing are required. We have this, and that is why we in South Africa have been able to achieve something unique of its kind in the world. Another factor which makes rapid transit more difficult is the locomotive itself. One cannot simply change gears in a locomotive so that it can run faster and not pull as strongly. The opposite is, of course, that it can pull strongly and not run fast. In South Africa we do not as yet have separate locomotives to haul passenger and goods trains, as is the case in Europe.

Furthermore there is the question of the overhead track, the contact wire which runs above the railway lines so that contact can be made through the pantograph. It is very interesting to note that the supply of current varies according to the incline and curves. At times one feels as though such a train is running on a corrugated road. The electrical contact must be consistently maintained. The development of pantographs—this has, of course, given the electrification of our railway lines a tremendous boost—is a special industry, and there are two or three firms in the world which specialize in manufacturing the pantograph in such a way that it will always feed a uniform stream of electricity from the contact wire to the locomotive itself.

All these problems are of vital importance and will have to be solved. Accordingly they are being given constant attention. We shall in due course achieve a speed of 200 km/h. Different phases have been announced by the Railways in this regard. Our suburban trains will eventually be able to operate at a speed of up to 150 km/h. These high-speed trains will eventually pay off handsomely, provided the coaches are convenient. In addition, high-speed trains will make it possible for longer and heavier loads to be conveyed. Eventually we shall, of course, be able to have fewer trains as well, but because of fewer trains which are more convenient, we shall eventually be able to convey more passengers.

I referred earlier to the fact that an aircraft is written off after 10 years. A high-speed train is written off after 20 years, whereas a conventional train is written off after 30 years. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, during the Second Reading debate tribute was paid to many people who had attained great heights in the service they rendered to the S.A. Railways and Harbours. I should like to mention one name here. He is a person who joined the Railways as a junior official, but who ultimately reached the very top rung of the ladder. I thus want to pay tribute to Mr. Ben Schoeman this afternoon. He is a person who, as Minister entrusted with the S.A. Railways, rendered service to his country and his people during difficult times.

I want to convey my gratitude to the hon. the Minister for the undertaking he gave last night, at the request of many speakers on this side of the House, to the effect that he would give attention to the pensions which are being paid to our older pensioners.

I should like to ask the hon. the Minister to take cognizance of the following aspect. I am referring to parity between pensions payable to people who are doing equal or the same work. I should like to single out one case and this will give the hon. the Minister an indication of what is at issue. Let us consider a driver on the Railways who rendered service for a period of 40 years and then retired on 1 January 1973. The lump sum which was then paid to him amounted to R8 524, whereas his monthly pension amounts to R157,86. The driver who retired on pension on 1 January 1974—only a year later—received a lump sum of R12 347 with a monthly pension of R228,66. Another example is that of a man who retired on 21 January 1979 and received a lump sum of R19 508 and his monthly pension amounts to R378. On 1 January 1981 another man retires on pension, also after 40 years service as a driver, and he received a lump sum of R23 784 and his monthly pension amounts to R496,36. But a man who retired only six months after this person, who did the same work and rendered service for the same period, received a lump sum of R42 120 and his monthly pension amounts to R780. Would the hon. the Minister be so kind as to give attention to this matter?

In the rest of the time at my disposal I should like to pay tribute to the wife of the railwayman, for tribute has already been paid to the railwayman himself. Thousands of our railwaymen work shifts and as a result of the manpower shortage many of them work long shifts. I am thinking here of the shunters and the foot-plate workers. These people no longer work an eight-hour shift, but work 12 hours a day, year after year. In those cases an exceptional sacrifice is made by the wife who has to play her role in the home as wife and mother, as well as having to a large extent to accept responsibility for the duties which are normally her husband’s. She has a great and important task, and consequently I should like to pay tribute this afternoon to the wife of the railwayman. Unless everything runs smoothly at home and the wife supports her husband and stands by him in all respects, in order to make a happy worker of him, we shall never succeed in maintaining productivity. Consequently I believe that the wife of the railwayman deserves to be praised.

Last night one of the hon. members referred to the Laingsburg disaster. Within a period of a week the railwaymen had to repair the bridge and railway line and it goes without saying that they had to work day and night to be able to do so. Here, too, the Railway wives had to make their sacrifices.

Furthermore I want to refer to the SAR-Women, the Association of Railway Women.

In 1944 a small group of Railway women came together because they felt that there was a need for an association for women. The SAR-Women was then established. Since then the women have been realizing their aspirations in this association through the pursuit of the objectives of their association, and one has the highest appreciation for this. What is very important is that the president of the Association is none other than Mrs. Loubser, the wife of the General Manager of the Railways. In this House this afternoon I want to wish her everything of the best in the great and responsible task she is performing. Those people are rendering a welfare service to our nation across a wide spectrum, and it is a service of which one is very grateful to take cognizance.

This brings me in fact to the services which are being rendered by women in the Railway Administration. The Railways is, of course, one of the largest employers in our country, and out of the 271 000 employees on the Railways, almost 11 000 are women. A considerable number of these women occupy senior posts. There is, for example, the post of Chief Secretary of the Sick Fund. That position is at present being occupied by a woman. The Chief Pharmacist of the Railway Administration is also a woman. One could mention many senior posts which are being occupied by women to indicate how women are in many cases already occupying a considerable number of high-ranking positions. We need only consider the Railway police. There is a woman holding the rank of lieutenant-colonel, and one appreciates the service being rendered by those people.

Just consider our air hostesses. They are the people who receive us so courteously when we enter the aircraft, the people who serve us and then stand at the door again to say goodbye to us in a friendly way when we leave the aircraft. Surely one receives this service only from the S.A. Airways and from no other airline in the world. It is with great gratitude and appreciation that one takes cognizance of this.

There are 68 women with degrees in the employ of the Railway administration. They deserve our highest appreciation.

This brings me once again to the SAR-Women. I am thinking here of one of their crèches, “Kabouterland”, in Bloemfontein where more than 1 000 children of Railway staff members are being cared for every day. However, they have only a few full-time staff members at that school. The rest of the work is done on a voluntary basis by the wives of Railway staff. I am also referring to the day centres of the SAR-Women’s Association at Epping, Durban as well as at Salvokop in Pretoria. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, I am sure the hon. the Minister will take note of the request made by the hon. member for Witbank. Whilst I did not intend talking about staff matters, I would like to take this opportunity of following up on what that hon. member said, but I shall be approaching the matter from a different angle. I have been led to believe that in the past there was a gentleman’s agreement between the Zimbabwean Railways and the S.A. Railways preventing either from poaching the other’s skilled and trained staff. We know that there are now many people immigrating from Zimbabwe, as it is now called, and I therefore believe that the situation has now changed. The appeal I want to make to the hon. the Minister has to do with skilled people, in particular with diesel unit drivers. I have been led to believe that men with 10 to 15 years’ service, who have left Zimbabwe to come to South Africa, are seeking employment in our Railway services and being taken on as assistant drivers. That is what I have been led to believe. I think, however, that that is rather unfair. They are highly skilled men, and I would like to suggest that the hon. the Minister should review this policy. Perhaps they should be subjected to certain tests to determine their ability as operators of diesel units. Then, perhaps after having undergone the necessary health tests, they could be put onto shunting duties for a certain period and then taken on as full-time drivers. I think it is rather ridiculous that a man with 10 to 15 years’ service should be taken on at a salary of R400 per month.

I want to speak specifically about passenger rail transport today. There is no doubt about the fact that rail transportation is an ideal form of man transportation for commuters. We have seen the tremendous development in the transporting of Black commuters throughout our major metropolitan areas in South Africa today. However, there is one word of warning I should like to direct at the hon. the Minister this afternoon. Recently, I accompanied the Natal Systems Manager on rail journeys in my constituency, and I want to thank the Administration for the fact that a man of his position could find the time, along with his Operations Manager, to travel through my constituency so that I could show him some of the problems of the commuters there.

He did that because you are a gentleman.

Thank you, Sir. I want to tell the hon. the Minister that I have noticed that there are a lot of Black commuters travelling in closely packed trains, who push the doors open while the train is travelling at a high speed. Unless something is done about this, we are going to read in the Press one day that somebody was pushed out or has fallen out and is seriously injured, if not killed. I do not know whether one is supposed to be able to push the doors open while the train is in motion, but it is a very dangerous practice.

I should also like to ask the hon. the Minister whether the Railways have a policy to drive first-class passengers off the commuter services. I ask this because I know that in my constituency, on the upper South Coast, where there is already an ideal commuter line, people are leaving the train service and are now travelling by road in spite of the high price of petrol and despite the fact that road transport is costing them more. The reason for this is the quality of service. I know that many of the complaints with regard to quality of service have to do with the Berea Road station. I have been to that station with the System Manager and it is total, utter chaos if one is a first-class passenger. I have appealed to my constituents through the local Press to please be patient, and I am sure that by January or February next year when the construction of Berea Road Station has been completed, certain recommendations will be implemented. These recommendations resulted from my meeting with the System Manager, when we visited this Station, and I am sure that when these recommendations are implemented, conditions will improve. I appeal to the hon. the Minister, however, to give greater consideration to the quality of service being granted to first-class passengers. One recommendation that I should like to make to the hon. the Minister is that the service which he mentioned in his Second Reading speech of a combined rail-bus ticket for third-class passengers, which is being used in Durban today, should also be provided for first-class passengers. In other words, a passenger will then be able to take a train from, say, Amanzimtoti, disembark at Berea Road Station, and the same ticket will then enable him to board a bus which will take him to, for example, the beach front or to Addington Hospital. Other complaints of passengers concern the schedules of trains. When I went on this particular trip, the train was late and another train was cancelled. I travelled on the train four times in one day at peak periods to experience, and observe the travelling conditions and I submit that if we want a proper commuter service, the trains have to run on time. It is a different situation if one is in a metropolitan area where there is a train every five or ten minutes, but this is not the case in the greater Durban area. When a train is to leave at 06h15, it must leave at 06h15. Another complaint concerns the access to stations. Many of the existing stations were built for the old days before there was enormous urbanization of the area. The cross-over pedestrian bridges, the number of benches for people to sit on and other facilities are simply not adequate. I believe there must be a complete rethink on these matters to ensure that the pressure of people on platforms does not cause discomfort to those first-class passengers who are paying four times as much for their tickets than the third-class passengers regardless of whether they are Black or White. I might add that many Blacks are travelling first and second class today and regardless of colour, these passengers feel that rather than pay the increasingly expensive fares, they would prefer to travel by road because the passenger facilities are totally inadequate. The whole problem concerning the situation on stations is exacerbated by loiterers who do not intend travelling by rail. They sit on the station, interfere with people, with children and women and there have been cases of assault, rape and all sorts of unpleasant happenings in my constituency of which the hon. the Minister is aware. I believe this must be stopped, and one way to stop it is to limit the access to stations to passengers only. I know the Administration has started to do this as can be seen at the Congella station where barriers have been erected but there again the barriers they are using are too small and cannot cope with the flow of passenger traffic at peak periods. I believe we must have a complete rethink on these matters.

Another problem concerns litter-bugs. The litter which one finds on our stations after certain trains have passed through is absolutely shocking. May I suggest that especially in third-class coaches a publicity campaign should be launched—I am thinking of one similar to that which one finds in buses and overseas in commuter services—where advertisements are placed inside the coaches reminding people of the need to keep our stations clean. I think that a lot more publicity should be given to that.

In the few minutes left to me I want to talk about Richards Bay and the stevedoring services there. I want to say to the hon. the Minister that I firmly believe that there is a monopoly existing in Richards Bay. I corresponded with the General Manager on this matter and I have been told that there are four stevedoring firms there with general licences. This, however, is not entirely correct. There are only two stevedoring firms actually operating on general cargo which have full licences, and another which has a so-called half-licence limiting it to timber only. I have to ask the hon. the Minister whether there is such a thing as a half-licence allowing stevedoring, where the licence fee charged being exactly the same as that for a full licence. I firmly believe that the reason why this firm with a half-licence is being denied the right also to do stevedoring for general cargo, is because the other two firms, which incidently employ less men in Richards Bay than the firm with the half-licence, are afraid that this firm will give them too much competition. We must promote more competition and Richards Bay is a rapidly expanding new harbour and three new berths for general cargo are being constructed there at present. I believe that the stevedore with the half-licence should also be allowed to do stevedoring work in respect of other cargoes and not only in respect of his own cargo. After all, Sir, this firm is paying the harbour something like R450 000 per year in harbour dues, and employs 200 men over a 24-hour period, or 100 per shift, whereas the other two companies only employ approximately 25 labourers. Yet, this firm is being limited to a so-called half-licence. I do not expect the hon. the Minister to reply to this in this debate, because it will require an investigation, but I sincerely hope he will look into this matter and give me a reply in due course. I want to thank him for the courtesy he showed me after the debate in February when I received a number of letters from him clearly indicating his attitude and setting out replies to my questions. I thank the hon. the Minister for that and I now ask him to look into Richards Bay as far as stevedoring is concerned in view of the fact that it is a new port and that we need more competition there. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, the hon. member for Amanzimtoti touched on a number of matters to which I do not wish to react.

Mr. Chairman, “Makadas”, the nickname for the Touws River-Ladismith branch line, has become legendary in the region it serves today. This nickname apparently derives from the English words “muck” and “dust”, which described the dust, papers, chicken feathers, etc. kicked up by the steam locomotive of those times in dry periods on arriving at each station. There is no end to the sentiment attached to the beloved little train of this region.

After a previous generation had completed the railway line with pick and spade at a minimum price, it was taken into use in 1925, 56 years ago, and played an important role in the development of the region. During the night of 25 February 1981, floodwaters of unparalleled violence damaged approximately one-third of the railway line so severely that it must be rebuilt completely in order to restore it to what it was before the floods. Two bridges will have to be replaced entirely. The estimated cost of the work is R20 million. This does not include the cost of essential protective works in case of future flood damage. The considered opinion is that even protecting works will not afford a sufficient guarantee against the railway line being damaged by washaways if it should be rebuilt in its present situation. The alternative is to relay the railway line away from the river bed, beyond the reach of floodwaters, and at the same time to build it to a higher standard for heavier loads. However, before the necessary surveying work is done, it is impossible to determine what such a new railway line would cost. It would take from two to three years to repair the old railway line completely.

Against this background the Ladismith community is asking for the repair of their railway fine. They regard it as their bounden duty to rebuild their ravaged district with skill and courage to be a heritage for future generations, and they also believe firmly that they cannot achieve this without their railway line. An economic analysis has been carried out to determine how the repair of the branch line from the point of view of the railway operation would compare with the alternative of road transport schemes. If the railway service were to be reintroduced the annual deficit would amount to an estimated R3,2 million, whereas a road transport service would entail a loss of approximately RO,6 million. It was clear from the investigation that it would not be in the interests of the Railways to rebuild the line. Nowadays the closure of uneconomic railway lines is a common phenomenon overseas, particularly in developing countries. Due to higher rate structures the road transport service would be considerably more expensive for the consumer community. For this community a road transport service is a gloomy prospect. The first reason for this is the higher rates. For example, they point out that the price of coal would increase by 31% and that of cement by 24,6% due to the higher rates of road transport services. Dramatic increases of this nature will inevitably result in a considerable increase in the cost of living for the people of Ladismith.

In the second place, they contend that there is an inadequate number of suitable roads to sustain an efficient road transport service. A tarred road to Laingsburg, which would be the logical railway junction, will therefore have to be built at a cost of approximately R20,7 million, and district and main roads will very probably have to be adjusted in many respects.

Makadas is still the favourite, and people are wondering aloud whether the tragic destruction of this railway line could not also be regarded as damage due to flood disaster. People are also wondering whether it is fair to expect the Railways to pay for the repair of the railway fine from capital funds. Could the disaster fund, or the surplus that remains of the agricultural aid fund—if there is such a surplus—not be used to bear the costs?

On 15 May this year the hon. the Minister visited Ladismith. He was accompanied by the Director, Public Relations, and the Assistant General Manager, Planning, the System Manager, the Resident Engineer and the three commissioners. He also addressed a meeting on that occasion at which interested parties put their case and made a plea for the restoration of the railway line. That meeting decided that a committee of interested persons be established, a committee assisted by Railway officials, to reinvestigate this matter in an effort to obtain satisfaction. Subsequently the General Manager of the S.A. Railways, Dr. Loubser, also called at Ladismith and held discussions with the committee. All this was done in an effort to put something in the place of a small railway line which had been destroyed by a flood disaster, something which would be reasonable and logically acceptable and economically viable. As far as I am concerned—and I believe, too, that this would be in the best interests of the community there—the community ought to be given the same or a better service than that which they had before the flood. Moreover, the new service need not necessarily cost more than their old transport system cost them.

If we can achieve this, then the community of Ladismith will be content, and we shall also be doing the right thing in the interests of the community and in the interests of South Africa.

Mr. Chairman, today I want to focus the spotlight on the contribution made by the Railways to the combating of South Africa’s public enemy No. 1, viz. inflation. Before I come to that, however, I want to bring a local need in Port Elizabeth and vicinity to the attention of the hon. the Minister and his department. It is concerned with the flight time-table for Port Elizabeth’s airport. I want to ask the hon. the Minister and his department to consider the introduction of an early flight from Port Elizabeth to Cape Town. The inhabitants of Port Elizabeth and vicinity are finding that they are at present in an unfavourable position in comparison with the inhabitants of other urban centres which are served by airports. It is concerned with the fact that one-day inter-city visits by businessmen and representatives has become the general pattern today. One-day inter-city visits are an everyday phenomenon for businessmen, representatives, Ministers, MP’s, MPC’s, mayors, senior officials and others. Incidently, since mention has been made of inflation, there is sound justification for this from this point of view as well, for these one-day visits also serve to combat inflation in the sense that they save time and money, in particular hotel expenses, and they could also promote productivity. By way of flight time-tables, one day visits are today being made possible and even convenient for the inhabitants of all centres which are served by airports. If one examines the time-tables, one will see this. And these flight time-tables apply to all these centres except Port Elizabeth. Port Elizabeth does not have this privilege in all directions, for it is possible to the North and the East, but unfortunately not to the West. The result is that if one tries to pay a one-day visit to Cape Town one finds that the time in which one would have been able to have made reasonable progress in one’s discussions in Cape Town, has been spent seated at the airport in Port Elizabeth. It takes only an hour to fly from Port Elizabeth to Cape Town but the earliest time at which one can reach one’s destination and commence one’s business in the city at present is between 11h00 and 12h00. This means that the day is very short for meaningful business purposes or official missions. That is why I am asking for the possibility of introducing an earlier flight to Cape Town to be investigated for the convenience of the inhabitants of Port Elizabeth and vicinity as well. If we are going to standardize our domestic flights with the Boeing 737s, it ought to be far easier to do so. At present efforts are being made to serve East London and Port Elizabeth, too, with the 601 flight from Durban, but as far as Port Elizabeth is concerned, this is not a satisfactory service. In that case the day is too short if one wishes to make a one-day business trip to Cape Town. What would probably be the obvious step to take is to substitute this combined flight with two independent flights. This means that we shall have a flight from Durban to Port Elizabeth and a separate flight from Port Elizabeth to Cape Town. This would mean that we would bring the inhabitants of Port Elizabeth and vicinity into line with the general pattern of convenient one-day visits between centres. In addition it would mean that the inhabitants of Port Elizabeth and vicinity would be able to enjoy this facility in all inland directions. Where they are at present able to do this only to the north and the east, they would then be able to do this to the west as well.

As far as the contribution of the S.A. Railways to the combating of inflation is concerned, I want to say that if one analyses the efforts of the S.A. Railways to combat inflation, and wishes to see them in the correct perspective and assess them in a balanced way, regard should be had to certain factors which excessively expose the Administration to the onslaughts of inflation. These factors are of such a nature that the Administration is virtually defenceless against them.

At the same time we must then bear in mind that an organization such as the Railways has basically only two good weapons with which it is able to fight and control inflation. Those two fundamental weapons are price stability and high productivity. Maintaining price stability is being pursued as a top priority by the Railways. How difficult it is to do so successfully, however, is illustrated and emphasized by the extent of the price rises in the production inputs of the Administration. Here we can furnish a few interesting figures. From the 1978-’79 financial year to the 1980-’81 financial year, the computed percentage increase in the principal inputs was as follows: Fuel, an increase of 131,9%; steel, 33,2%; coal, 29,1%; electricity 9,45%; the consumer price index was 29,9% and the wholesale price index, 36,8%. If these periods are taken over a longer period from January 1973 to July 1981 then the increases in respect of these production inputs are even more dramatic. A few examples of these are: Fuel 840%; electricity 209%; steel 399% and coal 436%. Over the same period the general inflation rate went up by approximately 172%, but what do we find when we examine the railway tariffs? Over the same period the Railway tariffs rose by an average of only 108%. If one views the success of the Railways in combating inflation against the background of these other figures, the achievement becomes even more impressive. This is striking evidence of the success which has been achieved by the Railways, in the first place, in cutting down on expenses and, in the second place, in increasing productivity.

A few additional measures which are being applied in combating inflation and which are related to the Administration’s policy of pursuing price stability as a top priority, are for example—I shall not be able to elaborate on this; I just want to mention them—the following: There is the application of cost benefit analyses, a standard price adjustment formula in contracts which protect the Administration’s transport services against exceptional price rises and the replacement of the Boeing 727 aircraft with the more economic B.737 aircraft. Furthermore the new aircraft are being fitted with better engines, with a resultant fuel saving.

As far as the second weapon, viz. the endeavour to achieve greater productivity, is concerned, it may be mentioned that some of the steps which are being taken to promote productivity are, briefly, the following: Stringent and effective control and discipline in all sectors, but in particular administrative and financial discipline. This ensures a productive utilization of manpower and prevents waste and unnecessary damage to Railway property and equipment. Furthermore there is the close attention which is being paid to the quality and competence of employees who are being appointed and trained. One can also emphasize the training of manpower which is receiving special attention. Then, too, there is the creation of good working conditions in order to ensure satisfaction, dedication and loyalty among the entire corps of employees. This is undoubtedly one of the great secrets of the success of the Railways in general, and more specifically in respect of this question of combating inflation. I am referring here to the fact that you have a corps of employees who are satisfied, who are doing their work with dedication and who are displaying loyalty to the Railways and to the Administration. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, on a point of order: Is it permissible for the hon. member for Yeoville to divert the hon. the Minister’s attention while an hon. member on this side of the House is addressing him? [Interjections.]

Mr. Chairman, may we have the fact correct? There was a conversation between two of us which I did not start. [Interjections.]

Mr. Chairman, I must warn the hon. the Minister that my speech is going to be a pot-pourri or a “bobotie”. He therefore should sharpen his pencil because there are lots of things I am going to ask him.

Would the hon. the Minister please advise us how he sees the role of Pietermaritzburg in the Natal system? We are certainly pleased by the progress that they are making with the Mason’s Mill development concerning goods facilities there, but there are numerous questions which I should like to ask him about it. Is it the intention to have the Durban-Johannesburg mainline by-pass Pietermaritzburg or is it the intention only in relation to goods trains? What is to happen to the present old station in Pietermaritzburg and also to the land, where the present goods facilities are, when those facilities are moved to Mason’s Mill? We are concerned in Pietermaritzburg to look after our old buildings and that area around the old station has some useful buildings. We should like to see that that area retains as far as possible, its Victorian traditions. When the Mason’s Mill development is completed will the vigorous and noisy steam shunting locomotives be phased out? They are romantic, but the peace in Pietermaritzburg from shortly after midnight until 06h00 is shattered by these steam shunting units.

There is something which concerns me about many of my voters in Pietermaritzburg. The hon. member for Witbank mentioned a similar set of circumstances, but instead of being upset about the long hours Railwaymen have to work, he praised their wives for doing without their men for so long. [Interjections.] Why is the pattern of Railway work that men like drivers, shunters and train managers or train controllers have to work these incredibly long hours? What happens is that they get used to living on overtime. Their standard of living therefore goes up to meet the overtime and then they cannot do without overtime. They get caught in the treadmill of working 50 and even 60 hours per week every week of their lives.

But what about the nurses?

The point is that they do not have a choice. I believe it is a bad policy to run the Railways by men who, in order to maintain their standard of living, have to work overtime all the time. It is no good saying that they like it. The trouble is that they have had to do it for so long that they cannot afford not to do it, because then they would not be able to meet their hire-purchase commitments or whatever it is.

What do you suggest?

I shall come to that in a second. We need to get more labour on to the Railways and we have to do some more labour-intensive work.

Have the hon. the Minister and the department considered the options for introducing more labour-intensive work in the S.A. Transport Services? I believe the need for this is self-evident. Everybody else in this country is concerned about this. Even a corporation like Anglo American has set aside one of its directors to look at the way in which they can use more people in certain labour-intensive industries. There are many people who are suggesting that there should be investment rebates, not on the basis of capital invested in machinery, but rather in jobs created. I believe that the Railways, if they are concerned to be a modern, go-go, with-it business corporation, should look at this aspect as well, because that is what we need in South Africa.

There is another matter that I should like to raise with the hon. the Minister. I think it is a very serious matter. A complaint was laid with the Advocate-General about somebody who was allegedly making money out of tickets from Maputo and this is what he says in paragraph 3.2.1 of his report dated 1 September 1981—

In due course this man was sentenced in the Durban Local Division to a fine of R3 000 or imprisonment for three years. I believe this is a serious matter if the S.A. Railway Police are not taking up something like that, because clearly the man was guilty.

There is something else that concerns me. I recently had to deal with a group of Railwaymen from one family who were in really bad need from a welfare point of view, and it was then brought to my attention that there was only one welfare worker for Railwaymen in Natal. This I find hard to believe; it is a matter of concern to me, and perhaps the hon. the Minister could tell us what the position is. Have the Railways, in fact, decided not to do welfare work as such? Is it part and parcel of the personnel function, or what exactly is the position?

I should like to ask the hon. the Minister a question in regard to rail concessions issued to Railway pensioners which can be used by them and their wives for 48 journeys. When they apply for a ticket at a reduced price, they can stipulate that it is for a return journey. In other words, they would be able to undertake 96 journeys if they apply for 48 return tickets. What concerns me, and also these Railwaymen, is that they will not be able to enjoy 96 journeys but only 48 as a result of the abolition of the return ticket. I may be wrong in this assumption, but would be pleased in any event if the hon. the Minister could administratively ensure that the Railway pensioners will now be able to get two single tickets without being penalized.

I think I may be one of the relatively few members nowadays who travel reasonably regularly by train. I often use the suburban trains in the Peninsula and I very often travel from Germiston down the Natal main line.

To save money.

To save money and also because it is more convenient because of where I live. The Natal main-line service, the Trans-Natal, is a very good and efficient train service. However, I do not walk around the country with my eyes closed, least of all on our railway stations, and the feeling I get is that our passenger services are generally fraying at the edges. The bulk of the passengers nowadays are Black. Yet they do not have proper waiting-rooms. There are always hundreds of Black people sitting on Germiston Station, and very often they have to wait 24 hours for a connection. I gather that the connection through from Bloemfontein to Natal is in many cases extremely difficult for passengers as return passenger services were recently rationalized. What does concern me is that the waiting-rooms and facilities at stations should be better cared for. One gets the feeling that because of the shortage of staff, many things are just neglected.

That finally brings me to another aspect, and that is the many empty houses adjacent to railway stations. We know that improved signalling, electronics, better communication and computer control have resulted in many of the old stations, sidings and signalling control points falling into disuse, and the same applies to Railway houses. Could there not be some system of retaining these houses? Possibly they could be used for lower-grade Black or Coloured employees without creating tension within the Railways. Some of these houses are extremely well built; in fact, I think they are too well built, and it does seem a shame that they should be standing empty, often with broken window panes, while they could be used to provide accommodation for someone. I believe this should enjoy the hon. the Minister’s attention.

Mr. Chairman, I want to put a question to the hon. the Minister about something which is to me a very delicate matter. I refer to the Louw Geldenhuys hostel in my constituency. There are 270 beds, of which 170 are in the old building, and when I say “old” building, then I mean exactly what I say. There is a new section which uses prefabricated buildings. The old building is so old that I do not even think it can be repaired. What is of importance, however, is that staff from throughout the country come to stay in this hostel. The hostel superintendents find it very difficult to cope with the applications for accommodation. Often the people who seek accommodation there have to be turned away, and have to go and stay elsewhere at great expense in places which are perhaps not so suited to their purpose. R55 million has now been made available to build such a hostel at New Canada Station. I note that many of those hon. members opposite have complained about this. Just as single Black people are going to stay in the hostel at New Canada, single people are also going to stay in the hostel in my constituency. I should like the number of beds in the Louw Geldenhuys hostel to be increased to 500, since at present, too many people are being turned away. In my view, however, the buildings cannot be repaired. I therefore ask that a new hostel be built for us on the western side of Du Toit Street. I think it is really necessary. Matters are made very difficult for the staff on duty there, because very often they are notified early in the year that people who have to attend certain courses will be staying there. In order to have accommodation available for a person in January of the following year, that accommodation has to be reserved as early as the previous September, and this causes the staff many problems.

I want to thank the hon. the Minister and the Manager sincerely for the fact that the smoke problem there has now been solved. After the last time the matter was discussed here, the coal yard was moved. Our people are very satisfied about this. It shows that attention is given to what we talk about here.

I always find it a pleasure to see how efficiently the Railways tackles a problem. Or Monday we started talking about the question of increased rates, and already large notices can be seen at all stations. There are big headings with “bad news” on the one side, and “good news” on the other. That is for English-speaking people. At the bottom of the notice it reads “slegte nuus” on the one side and “good news” on the other. That is for us “boers”. These notices are printed in eight languages, for example in Pedi, Tsonga, Xhosa, Zulu, etc. What really happens with regard to these notices? How do these notices attract people’s attention? Of course, the attention of the Opposition is immediately drawn to anything that is “bad news”. Therefore they immediately go and look at the “bad news”. The semi-Progs and others therefore immediately go and look at the “bad news”. Of course, the more positive people immediately come to look when they see it says “good news”. They read the good news. Under “bad news” we read here—

Then, immediately, his eyes stray to the right. He now wants to read the good news. What does it say? I quote—

I am sure that hon. members of the Opposition do not even know what the 40-off plan is.—

Alf, is this not good? [Interjections.] It is really good. In any event, it will not be long before the whole bunch of Progs are older than 60 years. [Interjections.] Then they can all apply for the 80% discount. The following also appears here—

I started on a jocular note. Why? It is because we do not want people with long faces in this House. We do not need people who underestimate the skill and the expertise of the Railways Administration. When an organization such as the Railways administration acts in this way we will surely not encounter difficulties anywhere in the whole operation. Our Black people are good-humoured people. Our Black people are people who can immediately detect when fun is being poked at them. They also immediately detect if one is trying to make friends with them or even when one has their interests at heart. Surely the Railways is promoting the interests of the Black people in this regard. After all, one can detect this immediately. It is nice to know that one can get further information right away from one’s station master. Now one can have personal contact with one’s station master, a person whom one might otherwise never have had the opportunity of meeting.

When one looks at this placard in this way, it almost looks like an HNP pamphlet, especially the large black letters against the white background. [Interjections.] The style is also like that of an HNP pamphlet. [Interjections.] Hon. members can look at it. It is only a few words, yet it conveys the message. Surely that is what is important. [Interjections.] The Railways offers us something of great importance. The Railways do things in a spirit of …

Be careful. Louis Nel does not like jokes.

Forget it, I am not afraid of anyone. After all, I am verlig. [Interjections.] This pamphlet reflects the thinking of a business enterprise, a group of people with the interests of South Africa, and service to the people of South Africa, at heart. The Railways are not only interested in their own affairs. The Railways Administration is interested in every individual who makes use of its services. When one gives someone just a little piece of information, one makes him happy. I always object to inadequate information. When, for example, I get to a door and there is no notice saying “trek/pull”, I am always in difficulties. One always collides with one of these doors at least once. One inevitably tries to open the door in the wrong direction. [Interjections.] That is why I believe it is so important that people are provided with adequate information as to what they have to do. I therefore thank the Railways for this information about the service. I can say that this notice provides people with more effective information than, for example, the whole lot of newspapers whose representatives sit in the Press gallery—and I mean no offence, because I know that we all have our problems. This type of small advertisement is read by everybody, while the newspapers are not read by everybody.

Why do you not table it?

This was certainly done with the knowledge of the hon. the Minister. He certainly also had a finger in this pie, if I may put it like that. [Interjections.] This is a good piece of work.

Order! The bad news is that the hon. member’s time has expired.

Mr. Chairman, a sense of gratitude in a debate such as this is something that the Opposition usually does not like, because they say that members praise the Minister unnecessarily. However, I believe they will permit me to show just a little gratitude to the hon. the Minister by thanking him sincerely for the way in which he dealt efficiently with the problems I have referred to him over the past few months and furnished me with answers without delay. It is true that the hon. the Minister has not replied in the affirmative to all my requests. I trust that he will regret the negative reply he has given to some of my requests and will say to me at a later stage: “Old friend, I shall agree to that as well.” Just to orientate the hon. the Leader of the Opposition, I wish to say that the constituency of Koedoespoort is situated in the north-eastern suburbs of the large city of Pretoria. It is not a rural seat somewhere, like Nelspruit and Greytown. In this urban constituency is situated one of the biggest, most modern and best-equipped railway workshops in the country.

I just want to dwell for a few moments on the size of these workshops. They comprise six large workshop blocks: The machine workshop block, the boiler workshop block, the assembly workshop block, the wagon repair workshop block, the vehicle repair workshop block and the foundry block. These six large workshop blocks are subdivided into 18 smaller workshops where 18 different trades are practised by Railwaymen. This is indeed a giant undertaking. Although welding and other work that causes smoke is carried out here, I can honestly say today that in all the years that I have represented Koedoespoort, at a different level, too, I have never once received a complaint from anyone in respect of smoke, smog or refuse. It is to the credit of the workshop at Koedoespoort that although it is a large workshop, it produces as little smoke and refuse as possible and is therefore by no means a nuisance for the people who have settled around the workshop.

The total capital expenditure on this place over the years amounts to R36 million: R12 million in buildings and R24 million in equipment. If all that vast machinery and equipment were to be erected today I can assure hon. members that it would cost many more millions of rands. However, the Railways was far-sighted enough to initiate this major undertaking at Koedoespoort many years ago. Electric and diesel locomotives are repaired here, as are trucks and all types of coach and wagon. One finds here the only steel foundry run by the Administration, which produces steel component parts for the maintenance of the rolling stock of the Railways throughout the country. We have here a gas generator, a boiler shop and a compression shop which provide the local workshops with sufficient gas, steam and air pressure, so that this place is indeed entirely self-sufficient. Apart from that, all the six metre freight carriers of the S.A. Railways are built at these workshops. Last but not least there are the chemical and metallurgical laboratories built here which serve all the divisions in respect of the various services provided here.

Now I wish to convey my sincere thanks to the hon. the Minister and to his department, because when we look at the Brown Book, the expansion at Koedoespoort has not yet been completed. According to what I could see, 15 capital projects are still being undertaken. Some of these are new; others are improvements that are being effected and others are developments that are taking place. The total estimated cost of these capital projects is R13,982 million, of which R1,294 million is being voted in this financial year. R4,786 million has already been spent on these projects. I emphasize these figures because they indicate what an enormous undertaking the Railways has at Koedoespoort. I wish to single out a few of these new projects to indicate how important they are. A training centre for telecommunications apprentices, a new diesel depot, alternative power supply, a new metallurgical laboratory and so on are being built.

Now that I have sketched briefly all the things that are going on at Koedoespoort, hon. members will understand that these things are handled by people. On 16 August this year, 1 770 Whites and 1 854 non-Whites were employed at this place. Most of these Whites are my voters. Together with their women and enfranchised children, they comprise 25% of the voters in my constituency. I can give hon. members, and the hon. the Leader of the Opposition in particular, the assurance that these people did not vote for the PFP. On the contrary, during the past election the PFP fared second worst of all opposition parties that have fought the seat since 1970.

How many votes did they get?

They only got approximately 1 000 votes.

At Delmas they did not even get 900 votes.

The previous smallest number was 800. That was how poorly they fared.

I should like to raise a specific matter in this regard. I want to ask whether the hon. the Minister will confirm what was stated in the newspapers, viz. that the executive council of the Railways’ artisan staff and the management of the S.A. Railways have agreed to accept non-White artisans. I should like the hon. the Minister to confirm this and also to state whether the conditions mentioned have in fact been stated, because this is very important to me in that constituency. These conditions are three in number: Firstly, that no suitable White youth will be overlooked in favour of a non-White; secondly, that no non-White pupil will gain a lead on that White when he has to go to perform his national service and, thirdly, that equal conditions of service will apply. I accept that this is correct. If it is correct, then I know that the Railways will do its share. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, the hon. member for Koedoespoort wanted to enter into a competition, supported by the hon. the Minister, as to the degree of support that various parties had in constituencies. I think I can probably beat both the hon. member for Koedoespoort and the hon. the Minister because in my constituency of Yeoville they even had difficulty in finding a proposer and a seconder for a NP candidate. So obviously the degree of NP support there is somewhat limited.

I now want to refer, and I want to do it very quietly for the moment, to the altercation that took place between the hon. the Minister and myself earlier this afternoon. What is most remarkable is that when the hon. the Minister said that he had doubts about the question of whether in fact meals should be served on short journeys, if he had left it at that it would have had my complete support. I came to this House intending to suggest that we should adopt the system of the continental airlines, where on short trips meals are not served at all, but what does happen is that a stand is provided in the departure hall where one is provided with a little bag—and I have brought one along to show the hon. the Minister—and one simply helps one self. In most cases they help themselves to a sandwich, a piece of fruit and a small carton of fruit juice. People are much happier receiving that than getting the meals served to them in that form. This system creates a lot of advantages. Firstly, the aircraft do not have to carry a great deal of equipment, which in turn leads to a saving of fuel. Secondly, the staff is not as harassed as it would be otherwise and, thirdly, it means that one can deal with the people much more effectively. To show that there is no ill-feeling I am going to send this little bag to the hon. the Minister so that he can make use of it. In the same spirit I also want to say to the hon. the Minister that I have offered to let him have a look at my Hansard that he apparently has already sent for. If he looks objectively and fairly at what I said, I think he will come to the conclusion that what I said was related to an individual and his ancestor and not in fact to relate to any people or any group of people. I made that very clear because not only did I refer to a person because of the particular member’s taunting on religious grounds, but I also made it very clear that even those remarks against him I voluntarily withdrew. Anybody who is honest and who was there and who reads the Hansard honestly and does not want to distort will come to that conclusion. I am hopeful that the hon. the Minister, when he has got over his heat, when he sits quietly in his office and looks at the Hansard, will also come to that conclusion. I want him to take my word, not only because the rules of the House require it, because that is not enough for me, but I want him to take my word because that is what the truth is.

I now wish to deal with some other matters that are perhaps more important, and I specifically want to deal with Airways.

In connection with Airways I want to say to the hon. the Minister that the best way to make his Airways profitable is to ensure that there is maximum usage. A number of suggestions have been made today, particularly in respect of evening flights, but the one thing the hon. the Minister has not done and which I should like to suggest to him is that we should have a stand-by fare system whereby if there is room on an aeroplane one gets onto it on a cheaper basis. If there is no room, then one will have turned up for nothing. That system is used elsewhere in the world and enables aircraft to fly with a full complement of passengers. We have pleaded repeatedly that servicemen should be given certain concessions on the Airways. This would be an ideal system to use in respect of servicemen. In fact, it would be an ideal thing for the public as a whole to have standby fares and I appeal to the hon. the Minister to consider this matter carefully.

I have dealt with the question of catering equipment and the carrying of these loads but I do want to say to the hon. the Minister that if he considers the food that is served on our Airways I think he will come to the conclusion that there is something lacking in that regard. This is the case not only on the internal services but also on the external services. The most remarkable thing about this is that when one travels outwards on the external services of S.A. Airways the food is very much better than that supplied by some of the caterers overseas for the homeward trip. I think that the people who use these services will confirm this fact. I think this matter requires careful attention because as far as S.A. Airways are concerned the courtesy, the co-operation and helpfulness that one receives from the staff is unequalled when compared with the position in regard to any other airline in the world. However, when it comes to the food they have to serve, they are at a disadvantage. I think that if the hon. the Minister really wants his airline to be popular he must give careful attention to the food situation and see that it is improved.

You know, sometimes you make such a good speech and then all of a sudden you become so difficult.

Well, Sir, I invited the hon. the Minister to look at the position fairly and I am sure he will.

I wish to deal with one further matter and that is the question of the subsidization of fares. A very important statement was made in this House by the hon. the Prime Minister in respect of the deconcentration areas. The hon. the Minister of Internal Affairs also dealt with this matter. What I am referring to concerns the hon. the Minister of Transport Affairs. The hon. the Prime Minister made the following statement—

When I put this statement to the hon. the Minister of Internal Affairs I said—

To this the hon. the Minister of Internal Affairs replied—

Those were his words.

Of the services.

The subsidization of services, yes.

But training is not services.

Yes, I know. I am talking to the hon. the Minister of Transport Affairs now because he operates a service.

But the hon. member is quoting me.

Yes, I did quote the hon. the Minister. Those were his words. I quoted him correctly.

But those were the hon. member’s words.

No, those were the words of the hon. the Minister of Internal Affairs. They appear in the name of the hon. the Minister. I am not a Minister.

Fortunately!

Yes, fortunately for you!

†Mr. Chairman, the point which is an important point for the hon. the Minister is that I think he has to tell the country what he is actually going to do in regard to the question of the subsidization of the commuter services that exist in the PWV area. Does it mean, as the hon. the Prime Minister and the hon. the Minister of Internal Affairs have both said, that the full costs will have to be borne by those commuters? If that is so, what will the effect of this be on the economy? It will mean that wages will have to be increased which will not go into the pockets of the commuters but straight into the pockets of the Railways. As against this, the effort we should be making is to increase wages in real terms for those people so that they will be able to have a higher standard of living and so that we can improve the security of our country. However, what will happen here is that not only will the money go straight to the Railways but also that those costs will be passed on by those manufacturers and we will have more inflation with all the dangers associated with it. I want therefore to ask the hon. the Minister to tell us and to tell the public whether it is intended that both the Black commuter and the White commuter should pay the full cost of rail fares in the future and that there will be no subsidy in this regard at all neither from other departments within the Railway Administration nor from the Government itself. This is a vital matter for the people who live in the PWV area.

The second point I want to make in this regard is to ask what in fact is happening in so far as the planning of transport is concerned to deal with this deconcentration concept. You have no doubt seen, Sir, as all of us have, the physical development plan for the PWV area. In this regard it has been said specifically—

I have looked at the map in regard to the Bronkhorstspruit area. I have looked at where the railway lines run and where the labour is in the Ndebele area. I want to invite the hon. the Minister to tell us what his plans are in so far as transport, rail transport in particular, is concerned for the development of that area in order to serve the Ndebele people, because that appears to be the intention here. What are the plans, what is going to be done and how is there going to be rapid transport to deal with that particular situation in those particular circumstances?

Lastly I want to touch upon one other thing. It is the question of the increase which has taken place in regard to tariffs. R27,9 million is alleged is going to be raised by way of revenue from this, but if one looks at the accounts, one sees that the provision in order to transfer to revenue has been increased by R21,1 million. If the hon. the Minister would not have done that, he would virtually have needed no increase. One should also look at the depreciation provisions that are included here. I have just done a rough total, but I find that they are round about R640 million. If one looks at the funds which are available one finds that the revenue reserve as at 31 March 1981 was R282 million. So one can go through the depreciation reserve and all the funds which are available. All that has happened is that the hon. the Minister has done a little arithmetical exercise and has increased the amount quite unnecessarily. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, the hon. member for Yeoville discussed the helpfulness of the staff of the S.A. Airways. I agree with him, because we always find those staff to be friendly and helpful. However, he complained about the food he was given in our aircraft. I want to say to him that if he is such a gourmet, he should rather leave the food alone. It is not necessary for him to eat that food if he does not like it.

On behalf of the hon. members on this side of the House I also want to take this opportunity to pay tribute to our Railways staff. Speaking of the S.A. Airways, the other day I read a cutting on the Flying Springbok and it mentioned that Dr. Loubser had received the annual “business/ statesman” award of the Harvard Business School club for South Africa due to the valuable service he had rendered the South African economy over the past 10 years. I take this opportunity to convey to him my sincere congratulations.

Our thanks go, too, to the Railway Commissioners, the South African Railways and Harbours Service Commission, the three deputy general managers, the 10 assistant general managers, the 10 heads of departments and the 10 system managers, as well as the more than 250 000 employees of the S.A. Railways.

The Administration succeeds in providing a viable commercial transportation service which meets all the economic needs of our country. The Administration functions in such a way that national objectives, policy and strategy are served. The programme for purposeful management stresses the achievement of both efficiency and effectiveness. The programme stimulates entrepreneurial action at the higher levels of management while at the lower levels of management efficiency is emphasized and improved.

On this occasion I also wish to pay tribute to the railway people of the Umfolozi constituency, the people of the Empangeni-Richards Bay region, who have also contributed towards the success of that growth point which is in the national interest. At this point, since we are speaking about purposeful management, effectiveness and efficiency, I wish to call upon the hon. the Minister to take into account the scope of the activities of the Railways in this region so that we in the northern Natal region may establish a new system for the Railways with a system manager based in Richards Bay.

This is important, since the scope of the activities there has increased tremendously in recent times. If one considers the Sishen-Saldanha project, which already has its own system, it is so much more important that Richards Bay should also have one.

Since the Government decided on 15 April 1965 to build this harbour, which was commissioned on 1 April 1976, a great deal has been invested in this growth point up to June 1981. As far as the harbour facilities are concerned, there has been an estimated total investment of R573 million, while the railway line to Richards Bay has cost an estimated R961,6 million. As far as housing at Richards Bay is concerned, 324 departmental houses have been built at a cost of R8,9 million, and 20 duplex flats have been provided at a cost of R0,562 million. In the housing programme for 1981-’82 a further 42 houses have been approved for an amount of R2,4 million. 53 houses have been purchased in terms of the home-ownership scheme for an amount of R2,9 million. Employment opportunities have been created for 3 253 additional Whites and 3 581 Coloureds, Indians and Blacks in connection with the railway line and the Richards Bay harbour.

As far as the volume of freight is concerned, imports have grown from a mere 54 000 tons in 1976-’77 to 768 000 tons in the 1980-’81 financial year. On the other hand, exports have increased from 6,5 million tons in 1976-’77 to 27,2 million tons over the past year. The tonnage delivered by rail to the Richards Bay coal terminal for export, from the beginning of the export programme up to the end of August, amounted to a total of 93,8 million tons. The tonnage shipped during the same period, viz. from the time that the harbour was commissioned up to the end of August 1981, is 92,3 million tons. As I have already said, over the past year 27,2 million tons have been shipped by the harbour, representing 40% of the total exports from all South African harbours. The harbour which came closest to this figure is Saldanha, with 13,9 million tons, whereas Durban shipped 12,8 million tons.

Then, too, Richards Bay harbour and the railway line are not a stationary process. Expansions and additional facilities are constantly being approved and undertaken. The announcement by the Minister of Mineral and Energy Affairs on 4 September concerning additional coal exports, which are to increase to 80 million tons, necessarily also entails that more facilities will have to be created at Richards Bay. These are only a few reasons why a new system will have to be established at Richards Bay. A vast number of projects are to be tackled there in the foreseeable future, but I do not wish to go into detail now.

I now wish to refer to item 134 on page 11 of the Brown Book in terms of which expansion of goods facilities is to take place. I must bring to the attention of the hon. the Minister the fact that the goods sheds at Richards Bay are totally inadequate to the volume of freight at present being handled there. According to the department, R11 million has been set aside to provide better facilities and an improved goods shed in 1985-’86. Expansion of these facilities must be expedited if at all possible.

In conclusion, in the light of the loyalty of the railway people at Richards Bay, I wish to ask the hon. the Minister to attend to a minor request we have received from them, viz. to permit them to fish in the harbour area. When one bears in mind the enormous task they are performing there in the interests of our country, I think that is the least we can do for them.

Mr. Chairman, the hon. the Minister of Transport Affairs referred in his budget speech to the achievement of the S.A. Railways, which increased its production by 3,5% whereas the increase in staff was less than 2%. Therefore our wholehearted congratulations go not only to the hon. the Minister and the management team of the Railways, but also to every employee. We congratulate them on this fine achievement.

No single factor is of such importance to the increase of productivity as bringing in managers and workers of high calibre. Therefore the quality of the management determines the extent of the increase in productivity that can be achieved. The progress made with the introduction of the programme of purposeful management has therefore contributed more than a little to this achievement. We wish every employee all of the best in his endeavour to do the right thing in the right way.

The objective mentioned compels me to refer to a different sphere in which the Railways has fine achievements to its credit. I refer to the design achievements of the technical division. In this regard the hon. the Minister referred in his budget speech to the doubling of the railway line between Newcastle and Union at a cost of approximately R249 million. This in itself is no exceptional achievement, but let us take a closer look at it. The railway line in question involves a new route over the Drakensberg, but in addition has also been subjected to far more stringent design parameters. There are no fewer than six viaducts which will be up to 80 metres high. The highest of these viaducts will be the highest concrete bridge in the Republic of South Africa and will be higher than a building of 25 stories. The height of this bridge, and its length of almost half a kilometre, demanded new design methods. Add to this the movement of the deck when trains break, the comparative slenderness of such high columns which creates unusually high stresses with consequent buckling tendencies in the track, and one sees that this is an exceptional engineering feat which has been achieved by the technical division of the Railways. Our appreciation and thanks go in the first instance to this design team, but also to all the engineering disciplines that are constantly achieving great things. Our thanks and appreciation, too, all the men and women who accomplish these things in the modest seclusion of the design office.

I referred in passing to the doubling of the railway line at Newcastle. In deciding on a place to establish the third steel works in the late ’sixties, the Government policy of decentralization of industries and border area development played a decisive role in the choice of Newcastle. The success story of Necastle and the contribution of Iscor as a provider of employment and the consequent contribution to the solving of other social problems is well known. However, further sustained efforts are still needed to allow this growthpoint to develop to the full, and the role that the S.A. Railways can play in this regard is no small one. The importance of industrial development in decentralized areas was once again emphasized by the hon. the Prime Minister in the censure debate this year. The hon. the Prime Minister said, inter alia, the following (column 58)—

Therefore the following question may be asked: To what extent can the S.A. Railways make a contribution towards this very important development facet in our country? Before I refer to railage costs for the border industry area of Newcastle, the better to evaluate the total problem, it will be necessary to refer briefly to the market situation of the Iscor works there. During the 1980-’81 financial year, the Iscor works at Newcastle consigned 937 000 tons of prime steel. Approximately 497 000 tons, or 53,4%, had to be exported at the low average marginal revenue of only R42,86 per ton. Only 473 000 tons, or 46,6%, was sold on the local market at a marginal revenue five times higher than that. To put it differently, for every ton of steel sold locally, five tons have to be sold on the overseas market to realize the same marginal revenue. One can therefore imagine the effect such a marketing problem has on any business or industry. It is interesting to note that if it were possible to sell only 61% of the production of the Newcastle works on the local markets instead of a mere 46,6%, the break-even point of the works would be reached. Against the background of this weak market situation, the cost, and any cost increases, of raw materials, electricity, labour and railage rates are an important factor. Railage rates comprise approximately 16% of the total production costs. I shall try to indicate that the Newcastle works, that comprise an important border industry and ought in fact to enjoy an effective advantage, particularly as regards railage costs, is being placed in a poorer position than other Iscor centres. However, before drawing a comparison with the other Iscor centres, it is illuminating to note that iron ore from Sishen is now being delivered in Japan at practically the same price as in Newcastle. The railage on iron ore produced at Sishen or in Newcastle amounts to approximately R17 per ton. In contrast, the railage per ton of iron ore from Sishen to Vanderbijl Park and Pretoria is R14 and R15,30 per ton respectively. The difference in rates with regard to limestone, for example, which has to be conveyed to Vanderbijlpark and Pretoria, is R3,38 and R1,68 per ton respectively, and the difference in rates in respect of lime is approximately R4 and R2,21 per ton respectively.

I should like to put the following proposals to the hon. the Minister for consideration: Firstly, an effort must be made to achieve a greater degree of parity in regard to railage costs of raw materials for decentralized areas in comparison with comparable centralized industries, and secondly, any rail concessions on export products in accordance with the policy of decentralization of industries must also be awarded to the Newcastle works of Iscor. Apart from a direct positive influence which these proposals will have on the financial situation of this strategic border industry, it will enable the Newcastle works to export a larger tonnage at a competitive price. As already mentioned, Newcastle is in a relatively weak position in comparison with other centres as far as the supply of raw materials and local markets are concerned. However, Newcastle is more favourably situated with regard to the export market. The question now arises whether a harbour like Richards Bay could not be better utilized to improve that weak position. The possibility of using Richards Bay as an export harbour for steel as well should therefore be given serious consideration.

I have tried to indicate very briefly what a considerable influence the Railways can have on the profit situation of a border industry. It is essential that when we are dealing with a key border industry like the Newcastle works of Iscor, serious consideration should be given to alternative methods of making the cost structure competitive. The ideal is, of course, to make it more competitive. The important role played by the Railways in this regard may not be underestimated.

Mr. Chairman, the hon. member for Newcastle spoke about local matters and he will excuse me if I do not respond to what he said. I shall leave him to paddle his own canoe, because I want to push my boat out into Algoa Bay.

In 1840 Port Elizabeth started its harbour development with a little wooden jetty and in 1977 the latest development at Port Elizabeth harbour, that is the container facility, was completed. That was on 1 July 1977. In establishing this facility, the country spent in excess of R80 million, an awful lot of money under any circumstances. The facilities are amongst the finest in the world and I want to tell the hon. the Minister, if he will deign to listen to me, that the efficiency of Port Elizabeth harbour is in fact of the best in the world. The result, however, of the container facility at Port Elizabeth harbour is such that it is actually to the disadvantage of Port Elizabeth.

I want to give some figures in this regard. These are figures I got from the hon. the Minister in reply to a question. It transpires that in 1975-’76 the through-put of Port Elizabeth harbour was 8 369 000 tons. In 1976-’77 it was 8 367 000 tons. In other words, it was approximately the same for those two years. Then, on 1 July 1977, containerization came in and containerization so favoured Durban harbour that immediately in that year, the year of 1977-’78, the through-put of Port Elizabeth harbour dropped by almost two million tons to 6 485 000 tons. In the 1980-’81 financial year it dropped even further to 6 227 000 tons. This is a drop of almost 25% in the utilization of Port Elizabeth harbour and I maintain that it is as a direct result of containerization because of the advantage to shippers of using the facilities of Durban harbour for transmission of goods through to the Reef. The utilization of the container facility of Port Elizabeth harbour is only 43,1%. The hon. the Minister gave me that answer too. What really shocks me is that, when I asked him whether he intended taking steps to improve the utilization of the facilities at the harbour, his answer was that he did not intend doing so. We are therefore sitting on R80 million’s worth of container facilities alone. Any businessman of any standing, if he is confronted with a situation of under-utilized facilities, will tear his hair out in an effort to try to find the through-put to utilize those facilities and make them economically viable. When facilities costing R80 million are only used for 43% they cannot possibly be economically viable.

I would suggest, first of all, that the hon. the Minister should give very serious consideration to this problem. I intend to suggest a possible remedy to him. We all know that Durban harbour is filled to capacity and that that situation is going to become even worse in 1982, because in that year containerized traffic from the Far East is going to start hitting Durban harbour. It is estimated that, emanating from the Far East, there will be approximately 12 000 boxes for Johannesburg and an additional 8 000 boxes for Durban itself. If that all goes through Durban harbour, that will mean an additional 20 000 boxes which will be hitting the container facilities and 12 000 will have to be transported by rail to City Deep. That is going to create even more of a bottleneck, in my view, than currently exists.

What is the answer to this particular problem? I want to make a suggestion to the hon. the Minister, and I am sure that it will work—it is a question of whether the hon. the Minister can prevail upon his colleagues and his own organization to accept this solution to the problem. We know that City Deep in Johannesburg is now classified as a port. There is a port in Johannesburg. Let us consider that point. If I want to ship cargo from the port of London to, shall we say, Sydney in Australia, there will be one price ruling for that delivery whether the ship goes via the Suez Canal or whether it comes round the Cape of Good Hope. One price will obtain on a balanced shipping basis.

We have a situation here in South Africa where the freight rates are controlled by an organization. What I want to suggest is that if we are going to ship from Europe and America to Johannesburg, from any port in those places to the port of Johannesburg, one rate should obtain. There should be one inclusive rate for shipment to the port of Johannesburg whether that cargo is offloaded at the facilities in Port Elizabeth, Cape Town, East London or Durban. There should be one rate for, shall we say, shipment from London, Hamburg, Bremerhaven or wherever it might be to the port of Johannesburg. In that way I believe that the Railways would enjoy better utilization of their facilities. I do think there would have to be a degree of co-operation between the various shippers and the shipping lines to ensure that a certain balance of the container traffic came through Port Elizabeth. I do not think that this would be to the advantage of Port Elizabeth alone.

Who pays for the transport from Cape Town to Johannesburg?

The Railways have to pay for that. I would suggest that there should be some means of working together with the shippers to be able to overcome this particular problem. If one is going to call Johannesburg a port and if one is going to sit on facilities that are only 43% utilized when those facilities have cost R80 million, then I would suggest that the harbour administration in Port Elizabeth would be far better off, which in turn might help the hon. the Minister to pay for the additional rail transport from Port Elizabeth to Johannesburg. I am certain that if some sort of investigatory body were set up, with the Railways having representatives on it, with the harbours having representatives on it and with the Conference Lines having representation on it, a solution could be worked out which would be to the advantage of the transport services of this country. It would also be to the advantage of ports other than Durban and therefore to the economy of the country as a whole. I believe this is very important and we must give very, very serious thought to this underutilization of expenditure made by the S.A. Railways.

I want now to turn to another matter that somewhat concerns me. This relates to aviation. The National Transport Commission and S.A. Airways appear to be rather in league against private enterprise. I refer here to the case of Magnum Airlines which in September 1980 had a court case settled in its favour by Mr. Justice Didcott. He ordered in that court case that Magnum Airlines may fly direct between Johannesburg and Pietermaritzburg without an intermediary stop. The court case arose because of complaints by S.A. Airways. They actually laid a charge against Magnum Airlines for flying direct. It was referred to the Police by the National Transport Commission and ultimately, of course, the National Transport Commission had to pay its own costs. I should like to ask the hon. the Minister how much this whole exercise cost us as a country. What did we have to pay out of Government coffers to fight this case and why did we do it? Why we did it was to attempt to maintain a monopoly for South African Airways on the most lucrative air routes in this country. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, I am not going to react to what the hon. member for Port Elizabeth Central has said. It was more local in nature and I leave the hon. member to the hon. the Minister.

The role that the Railways is playing in the economy of the country, is definitely very well-known and it is not necessary to debate it here. At most, I just want to emphasize it. The Railways is definitely one of the few sectors in the domestic economy which takes a significant share in all spheres and plays an important role. As one of the largest providers of employment, its contribution towards the real income is one of the largest in the country. If we think of the fact that the Railways employs 102 000 Whites and 148 000 non-Whites, with an additional 14 800 Whites and 7 700 non-Whites in the Harbours, Airways and pipelines, we can properly gauge the full implications of its role as a provider of employment.

The total remuneration of the total number of employees for the past financial year amounted to R1 545 million. This contribution towards the real income cannot be underestimated. However, I want to dwell briefly on the contribution which the Railway is making towards stimulating private initiative. The important role that the Railways is playing in supporting South African entrepreneurs, assisting them and making them develop, and use South African manufactured products, sometimes goes undetected. It is often accepted as being obvious. Therefore, I feel it is necessary just to look at it once again for a moment.

For instance, if we look at the privileged position of South African suppliers in comparison with their foreign competitors in so far as a decrease of 12,5% is permitted on the price of domestically manufactured products or goods, their favourable position becomes clear, particularly when the domestic tender price is compared with that of foreign competitors. This decrease puts domestic manufacturers in a more favourable position, and therefore they can compete favourably with foreign entrepreneurs. This priority system has contributed largely towards South African manufactured goods being bought and used by the Railways.

Furthermore, if one takes into account the fact that the Railways is one of the biggest buyers in South Africa, and that most of its purchases are channelled from South African industries, one can deduce what benefits such purchases entail for South Africa. We are once again going to enter a period in our economy in which we shall have to take a clear look at our balance of trade. In the future we shall have to guard the position even more jealously in order to avoid being affected by an unmanageable, unfavourable import figure again. The role which the Railways is playing in this regard, is not to be misjudged. Therefore we are grateful that the S.A. Railways has built the concept of “Buy South African” into its financial policy and that it accepted the principle timeously. However, it is not simply the financial benefit which domestic manufacturers enjoy that is at issue. The Railways also succeeds in giving guidance to domestic industries with regard to specifications.

The specifications are drawn up and adjusted in such a way that local industrialists are put in a position to compete properly. The S.A. Bureau of Standards assists here without lowering safety standards in the process. To mention one example only, the South African material that is being used for the manufacture of coaches, has increased in volume, so that we have the position today where nearly 100% thereof consists of South African raw materials and materials. As a result of this policy of granting aid to the South African industries, various industries have come into being, of which a considerable number are developing into industrial giants at the moment. The domestic manufacture of concrete sleepers and fastenings which are used together with them, for instance, has brought about a new expansion in the concrete orientated industry, which has already progressed so far that South Africa is considered a world leader in this regard. However, I am somewhat concerned. I have heard rumours which have bothered me somewhat in this regard and I want to ask the Administration to give attention to the matter immediately. I have already written a letter to the former Minister of Transport in this regard prior to this. I am referring here to the rumour which alleges that the continual vibration of the trains causes the fastening bolts to enlarge the holes in the sleepers, that water enters these holes and that the bolts then begin to rust. This could result in the railway line coming away from the sleepers. I just want to repeat that I am reacting on mere hearsay, but I should nevertheless feel much more at ease if the Administration were to have this matter investigated properly.

I was also very grateful when I read something in Sake-Rapport over the weekend. Some of my hon. colleagues have also referred to it in this debate. Over the weekend I read in Sake-Rapport that the Railways had granted R21 million’s worth of contracts to five local entrepreneurs. The report reads as follows—

250 000 sleepers represent 44% of the timber sleepers required by the Railways annually. Furthermore, they compare very well with the imported hard wood sleepers that we are importing at the moment. I just want to refer again to my previous correspondence in this regard as well as 40 of one of my voters who wrote to the hon. the Minister in connection with a preservative procedure that he put at the disposal of the Railways for treating these sleepers. I should like to hear from the Administration in due course what progress has been made in connection with testing this procedure.

A few decades ago South Africa was still dependent on imports for its industrial requirements. Similarly the S.A. Railways was also dependent on imports for its requirements. With regard to its policy of assistance and inspection assistance, however, we have the position at the moment where the Railways has succeeded in establishing industries that manufacture exclusively for the Railways. Such industries have built up adequate skill and knowledge over the years not only to manufacture for the Railways, but to enter the markets abroad too. Therefore, we thank the Administration for its far-sightedness in accepting the slogan “Buy South Africa” timeously as its policy for operating and functioning. South Africa is already reaping the rich awards of this sound financial policy.

Mr. Chairman, I do not want to speak about my constituency this afternoon except to say that the railway line to the north runs through the vineyards of Paarl and that those vineyards produce something of a very rare quality. I should very much like to have it placed on record that, as hon. members will have read in their newspapers this morning, Paarl won the trophy for the best wine district in South Africa and the best white wine district as well. They will also have read that this year the trophy for the best winemaker in South Africa was awarded to Mr. Sarel Rossouw of Paarl. Sir, if you now think I have gone off the rails, I want to tell you that the railway fine runs right past the back of the Simonsvlei cellars!

The hon. member must try to get back onto the rails again.

Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.

With that nectar inside one it is very difficult not to go off the rails!

One of the major characteristics of the successful development of a country is the establishment of a complete infrastructure. One need only look at the infrastructure of road and rail links, of electricity supplies etc. in the various countries around us in Africa to realize how great the difference is between the development in South Africa and in the rest of Africa. I find it very interesting that in most of these countries it was in reality the colonial powers that were not very interested in developing those countries as such, other than draining away their riches to the mother country.

One of the best examples of infrastructure development is that of the railways in South Africa in comparison with the rest of Africa. Whereas South Africa today probably has one of the best and most comprehensive transport services, the rest of Southern Africa has lagged behind in this regard. In contrast with what is happening in the rest of Southern Africa, the S.A. Railways is a model of tremendous development over the past 100 years.

Last weekend I browsed through the Times History of the South African War, 1899 to 1902. It is amazing to read how much progress had already been made by 1899 with the provision of rail transport in the erstwhile colonies. It should be borne in mind that in those days it was by far the most important mode of transport over the vast distances of Southern Africa. In 1899 there were already more than 5 000 miles of rail links in Southern Africa. What is most interesting is that this service was controlled and managed separately by the various colonies and the various Republics, but that it nevertheless formed what was to a large extent an economic unit, concentrating mainly on the important inland centres of Johannesburg and Kimberley.

Of the total of 5 000 miles of track 750 miles were in what was then known as Rhodesia, 250 miles in the old Portuguese East Africa, 2 700 miles in the British-controlled Cape Colony and Natal and 1 300 miles under the Free State Government and the independent Nederlands Zuid Afrikaansche Spoorwegmaatschappij. Nowadays we are talking about a possible constellation of states in which the Railways will naturally play a very important role, and a very important precedent for this existed at the turn of the century. The two British-controlled colonies, the two Republics—the Transvaal and the Orange Free State—the former Rhodesia and Portuguese East Africa—it was a Portuguese colony—at that stage had similar co-operation in respect of rail transportation. I do not think it takes a genius to say that there was not much love lost between the republics and the others, but for economic considerations an acceptable arrangement was made. Since we are now seriously considering the idea of a constellation and co-operation, particularly in respect of rail transportation, we have a very good precedent here, dating from the year 1899.

Although the entire rail network at that stage used the narrow gauge system, there were nevertheless certain modern techniques which began here in South Africa. Here I am thinking of the pneumatic brake system which was one of the first in the world. In the Anglo-Boer War the Railways played a very important role and one is grateful that relics of that war have been preserved, such as block houses along the railway line to the north.

In the maps which are included in the Times History and by means of which the various battles of the Anglo-Boer War are explained, there is of course not much mention of roads—at that stage there were very few roads—but the railway lines are described in great detail because they were of course among the principal targets during the war. I find it interesting that in those days the journey of 500 miles from Cape Town to De Aar took 33 hours. It was then that Matjiesfontein gained its reputation as a refreshment post. It is remarkable that, 80 years ago, a young country like South Africa already had an infrastructure in respect of its railways which was probably more complete then than the network which most of our neighbouring countries have now. Today the South African Railways is still a leader in Africa. The 5 000 miles throughout the whole of Southern Africa 80 years ago has grown to a route distance of almost 24 000 km; the traffic to a total of 175 million tons.

I should like to refer briefly to another less well-known aspect of the Railways, and that is the utilization of road transportation services in respect of passengers, parcels and goods to supplement the rail services. I wonder whether hon. members realize that as against the total rail distance of 24 000 km, the road transportation service covered a total route distance of over 51 000 km during the past year and that over 17 million people were transported in this way.

In the early years road transport was used for the most part to serve the sparsely populated rural areas where the construction of railway lines was not economically justified. This function is still being fulfilled today where road transport serves as an extension to the railway fines. In this way—and I wish to express my gratitude for this—the surrounding interior or towns not situated near railway lines, or in any case geographically inaccessible to a railway line, can be served and this expands the infrastructure of such areas. Supplementary road transport services are supplied in cases where it is uneconomical, for example to provide passenger services, and it is also used to provide quick weekend services between large mining and industrial areas and the homelands. Every weekend, for example, 5 000 Black workers are conveyed from Welkom to Thaba’Nchu and Maseru. In the same way that passengers are conveyed, goods are also conveyed by means of scheduled trips to and from the railway line, and in this regard road transportation also plays a very important backup role.

In conclusion I wish to refer to the important role which road transportation services also play in the case of emergencies. This afternoon the hon. member for Swellendam referred to the legendary Makadas railway line. After flood damage had destroyed that railway line, the Railways was immediately able to make the necessary road transportation services available. I wish to thank the hon. the Minister and the Management for the assistance they rendered during emergencies in these areas by means of road transportation services, and also for the contribution which road transportation services in general is making to the expansion of the infrastructure of the rural areas.

Mr. Speaker, I am sure the hon. member for Paarl will not take it amiss if I do not follow his line of thought as I have parochial problems that I wish to raise.

In the first place I wish to refer to the narrow-gauge line between Port Shepstone and Harding, the provision of extra lines at Umtentweni and the moving of the rail complex at Port Shepstone. I should like to refer to the narrow-gauge line first, and at the outset I want to take issue with a senior official of the Railways and his threat to close down this fine. This took place at a meeting with the farmers at Paddock on 19 May 1981. This meeting was called to discuss the removal of certain staff from Paddock Station. Arising from this meeting, this official stood up and casually made the pronouncement that if the farmers complained much more, he would ultimately close the line, but that he would not do so immediately.

This stunned everybody quite dramatically. We subsequently arranged a further meeting that was held in Harding. At the outset I should just like to say that the line from Port Shepstone to Harding should originally have been a broad-gauge line. In fact, the broad-gauge line was built from Port Shepstone to Izotsha, a distance of approximately 15 km. Then the Railways talked the farmers into accepting a narrow-gauge line. The broad-gauge line was then lifted and the narrow-gauge line put down. That, however, is old history.

This brings us to the meeting at Harding. I must say that that official knew how to talk. If I put him and Dale Carnegie together, I am sure Dale Carnegie would come second. I also think he believes that attack is the best method of defence. Luckily for us, however, farmers are basic people who can soon separate the chaff from the wheat. I should just like to go into a few figures to indicate what exactly took place at that meeting. The figures I want to quote are official figures from the Railways themselves. I am only speaking here about timber on this narrow-gauge line. In 1978-’79 the amount of timber carried was 75 385 000 tons, whilst in 1979-’80 the figure was 100 119 000 tons. In 1980-’81 the figure rose to 143 401 000 tons. So over a three-year period there was an increase of 92%. We had the meeting with the officials at Harding. At that meeting it was conclusively proved that the Railways could not cope with the traffic and that the biggest suppliers of timber were being forced to use road transport because the Railways could not supply the necessary transport. It was also conclusively proved that there was insufficient rolling stock to handle the goods, and it was also quite obvious that there was a tremendous staff problem, and also the problem of steam. We thrashed the whole matter out and discussed the RMT position. The official even made the tongue-in-the-cheek comment that he would carry some of the goods free of charge to Port Shepstone. The end result was, however, that after discussing all the pros and cons, and going into the RMT position, it was still found to be cheaper to use the narrow-gauge line. What would have to happen, however, would be that there would have to be increased rolling stock and that the systems would have to convert to the use of diesel. It was on that note that the meeting ended. It was agreed that over a three-year period more rolling stock would be pumped into the system and that the system would be converted to diesel.

There was another matter that was discussed at the meeting. It was said that if the farmers would carry out certain earth-levelling projects at the Harding station, the Railways would put in an additional bank and take out the triangle. The farmers have kept their side of the bargain, but the Railways are still lagging behind. After that meeting, when everything seemed to have been settled, there was a Press report in the South Coast Herald of 11 September. In the article the same official discusses with the Chamber of Commerce the possibility of moving the rail complex from the present Port Shepstone site, a subject I shall be dealing with in a short while. Let me, however, quote a portion of the article—

Is it normal for a senior official to make statements like this? That is the first question I want to ask. My other question is: Is the Railways making things difficult for the fanners, thus forcing them to use other modes of transport? If that is the position, the Railways is going to be party to driving the farmers from their land, and I do not believe that that is in the interests of South Africa. The hon. the Minister must give us clarity on this subject, as well as about the future of the narrow-gauge line to Harding, because I believe that line is an integral part of the farmers’ lives in that district, and I believe that the farmers themselves play a tremendously significant role in South Africa. There are numerous narrow-gauge systems, so why pick on this one? I think the Railways should consider converting the fine into a broad-gauge line over its whole length. If there is a financial problem involved with the narrow-gauge line, I think the hon. the Minister should consider setting up a committee to go into the workings of narrow-gauge lines to see exactly what the position is. I think one should see whether the position is really as bad as the officials tell us it is.

There is one last point I should like to make. If the commuters can get the subsidies they do get—and a figure has been mentioned here that runs into millions—I believe that the farmers deserve equal consideration. I do not think there can be any doubt about that. If that is the position, let me say that I believe that charity begins at home.

I should now like to come to the position of Umtentweni. The Railways have almost completed the building of a new road bridge and a new pedestrian bridge over the Umtentweni railway line. What is disturbing, however, is that there is only one line there at the moment. With the building of this new bridge, it appears that the Railways have made provision for five additional tracks. I want to ask: Is this going to be a marshalling yard, or is it going to be a staging point? This is a high-density living area and one of the nicest suburbs on the south coast of Natal. I believe the people of Umtentweni are entitled to know what the future holds for them as far as this matter is concerned.

I now come to the Port Shepstone complex. I believe the hon. the Minister visited the area recently and that he knows the area exceptionally well. Therefore I do not have to elaborate very much. I should, however, like to refer to the moving of the complex from its existing site. This was first mooted in 1973 or 1974, and a meeting was held. While everybody agreed that it was the ideal thing, the idea was thrown out because of financial considerations. For many years commerce, local authorities and members of the public on the lower South Coast have been concerned about the stifling effect of the railway line on the development of the lower South Coast as far as holiday resorts are concerned. If one looks at the area lower down the coast where there is no railway line, the development taking place there is quite phenomenal. One can look at San Lameer, at blocks of flats going up, and there is even the development of a casino near that area. Port Shepstone has suffered in particular because the railhead is right on the foreshore, and round the corner from there is what we call South Wharf on the south bank of the Umzimkulu River, an area which I will discuss shortly. It is not necessary for me to elaborate on the shortcomings of the Port Shepstone Station. I am sure the hon. the Minister is well aware of the position there. I just want to say that as far back as 1974, the Railways Administration was advised of the development that would be taking place on the south coast of Natal and we were given the categorical assurance that the present site could easily accommodate any future development up to the year 2000. I believe this was wrong. From the exploitation of the limestone deposits there is no doubt that the area has sufficient potential to justify its status as a growth area. At present the Railways Administration has no option. They must expand, whether one likes it or not. This is where the Umtentweni position comes into it. I do not know whether the Railways are not going to expand at Port Shepstone, but is going to use Umtentweni as a staging point. Right now there are occasions when trains cannot get into Port Shepstone Station. They are then left on sidings at Umtentweni or South Port. I should like clarity on this situation. The expansion must take place because the present position is a highly congested one. There are two options open to the Railways Administration. The one is to expand where they are, and take over the complete foreshore of Port Shepstone. This will then rule out any further development as far as tourist facilities are concerned. The second alternative is to move the complex to an inland position. In so far as that is concerned, I should like to say that the Chamber of Commerce has had a feasibility test done by private engineers. Their conclusion is that the re-routing of the railway line from South Port to Marburg and the resiting of Port Shepstone Station presents no major physical or engineering problems. The probable cost involved appears reasonable in relation to the many benefits which would accrue. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, just like other hon. members of the Opposition parties, the hon. member for South Coast again treated us this afternoon to another example of the unbelievable ambiguity of the political parties on the opposite side of this House. Those hon. members attack the hon. the Minister scathingly, if one reads the newspapers and listens to the debate. They attack him in a resentful tone about the increases in fares. We do not like the increases either, but they are inevitable, and the hon. the Minister motivated them well.

However, the Opposition parties are voting against the proposals of the Minister this afternoon. They therefore want no increases at all. In their haste to find something to quarrel about with the hon. the Minister, they also blamed him for the increase in the fuel prices, as though he were responsible for that. But in the same breath they plead for better services. They asked for more services in their constituencies. We cannot find fault with this. We on this side of the House are asking for the same things. The hon. member for South Coast asked for attention to be given to certain stations, etc. We cannot find fault with that. We also ask for more and better services in our constituencies. But good heavens, Sir, one’s arguments must at least be logical. We cannot on the one hand vote against a motivated increase and then turn around and say that more money must be spent.

[Inaudible.]

The hon. member for Port Elizabeth Central, who has just made an interjection, does not want us to introduce increases, but the Railways has to pay for the conveyance of certain goods in containers from the harbour in Port Elizabeth to City Deep in Johannesburg. Where must the money come from? This is the kind of thing I cannot understand about the Opposition.

What I was saying was that we voted for our amendment …

They complain about the costs, but they are completely off the rails. This afternoon the hon. member for Yeoville went off the rails completely. If he would only remain on the tramline like Harry, he could raise quite a few good ideas here, but he struggles to remain on the rails and then he attacks the hon. the Minister, completely without justification, as he did here this afternoon.

I am not so sure of Harry on the tramline.

It is Harry gone haywire.

Since the Opposition parties are advancing reasons as to why the increases may not be agreed to, I want to tell them that they should not now ask for more and better services in their constituencies. They should forget about that. I think the official Opposition and the NRP must please not try to bring their illogical political ideology of theirs into this business undertaking which has again performed very well, judging from the budget submitted which was introduced. If we were to introduce the ideas of the hon. members of the parties opposite they would be as unsuccessful as their policies are in South Africa.

I wish to refer to two other matters. Recently a great deal has been written and said about State pensions. In the last Railway budget debate there were also many pleas for better pension benefits for certain Railway pensioners. The necessity for improved pension benefits cannot be overemphasized. We realize that it is not always possible to give everyone the very best. We cannot satisfy everyone. The reasons for this have been spelt out repeatedly in this House. However, I think the hon. the Minister and the department deserve our congratulations and thanks for the improved Railway pension scheme which came into effect on 1 April 1981. If one looks at it it is clear that the hon. the Minister and his department are sympathetic towards the Railway pensioners. I wish to thank the hon. the Minister on behalf of the Railway pensioners in my constituency, Verwoerdburg. The Railways worker need no longer fear old age. He need no longer be afraid that when he reaches retirement age, he will be in financial straits, because he will receive a dividend so that his financial requirements can be met. In the same way the new scheme also makes generous provision for the widow and dependent children of a deceased member. For interest’s sake I can just tell this House in this regard that when a Railway worker dies his spouse receives a lump sum equal to 80% of the amount which the member would have received on his retirement. This is really a wonderful provision which is being made for our Railway workers.

However, there is an anomaly here I should like to bring to the attention of the hon. the Minister. It is concerned with pension benefits to surviving minor children if both the member and his wife were to die. At the moment only a lump sum in cash is paid to the minor children in such a case, but no pension. I therefore wish to advocate that the hon. the Minister should have an investigation instituted into the extension of the pension scheme so that in the event of the death of both parents, a pension may be paid to minors, in addition to the lump sum which is paid out. It will really give the Railway worker greater peace of mind if he knows that if he and his wife were to die, his children would be well cared for.

There is another further matter I should like to draw to the attention of the hon. the Minister. This is the question of housing for our Railway workers. In the annual report of the General Manager and the budget speech of the hon. the Minister there is the pleasant surprise that enormous sums of money are being made available for the purpose of housing our Railway workers. I am sure that every staff member participating in the housing scheme is proud and grateful to be able to have his own home, particularly since that house will be fully paid for in the event of his death and his next of kin will therefore not find themselves homeless. This also gives these people peace of mind, and we want to convey our cordial thanks to the hon. the Minister and the department for this.

However, there is one aspect of the housing scheme which our people are still not happy about. I wish to bring it to the attention of the hon. the Minister. As the hon. the Minister knows, there are cases where an employee’s health is such that owing to constant illness he is compelled to retire at an early age. An employee’s property is fully covered by insurance in the event of his death, but when an employer has to retire early owing to constant illness, he must pay the outstanding amount on his loan himself, otherwise the property is taken over by the Administration. Of course we realize that the Administration is experiencing real problems in this connection. However, this is a matter which causes a great deal of suffering. For this reason I want to make a serious appeal to the hon. the Minister to have this matter investigated carefully with a view to adjusting the insurance cover in such a way—if this is possible—that the properties of employees who find themselves in this position and are compelled to retire, will also be fully paid for.

You have just made such a good speech that I will give you a new station next year. [Interjections.]

Mr. Chairman, when one looks at the Working Estimates of the Railways for the financial year ending on 31 March 1982, one is struck by the fact that the catering services show a deficit of more than R3 million, while the budget provides for a deficit of almost R3 million. Now I have to tread very carefully, of course. The last time I kicked this ball, there was a very strict referee who caught me badly off-side and awarded a penalty kick against me right in front of the posts. [Interjections.] However, I really believe that when one looks at the catering services provided on our aircraft and at our airports, the Airways should make an attempt to reduce that deficit. The question inevitably arises whether it is really necessary to serve full meals on weekend flights. One accepts that meals are necessary, for example, for businessmen who fly from Johannesburg to Cape Town early in the morning and back at night. They do not have time to have meals elsewhere. Therefore they need to take their meals during the flight. Over weekends, however, very few such businessmen travel by air. Therefore I do not think it is necessary to provide meals on such a large scale over weekends.

A further question is whether it is necessary to serve full meals on flights over short distances, flights which take only one hour, for example. Would light refreshments not perhaps be just as effective? As far as the menus are concerned, I want to ask whether these are not somewhat excessive, especially on domestic flights, particularly when one sees how much food is left over. I also want to say, with some hesitation, that the catering services provided at our airports are not very good. I therefore address another formal request to the Administration to give attention to those catering services, especially in view of the fact that we are now building new airports at several places. Is this not the time to plan for co-ordination between the catering services at our airports and on our aircraft? In this way, savings could also be made.

I should like to talk about a matter which my predecessor also discussed during this debate last year. In column 2654 of Thursday, 13 March, my esteemed predecessor, Mr. F. J. le Roux, asked whether the Lüderitz Street crossing in Booysens could not be eliminated. Booysens is a very old township in my constituency. Van der Hof Road is the main road through my constituency. It connects Pretoria with Brits and Rustenburg and carries heavy traffic. Lüderitz Street is an important street where it is crossed by Van der Hof Road. In later years, the Railways built the railway line between Pretoria and Magaliesberg alongside Van der Hof Road, with a crossing over Van der Hof Road in Lüderitz Street. On 10 May 1960 the Pretoria city council resolved—and there are more of these crossings in my constituency—to build bridges in cooperation with the Railways across Bremer Street and Main Street, which has been done over the years. On that day we also decided that Lüderitz Street and Hendrik Street would be retained as level crossings. A few years ago, the level crossing in Hendrik Street was eliminated. On 3 September 1968, the city council decided to eliminate the Lüderitz Street level crossing in cooperation with the Railways. Then a few interesting things happened. On 19 December 1977, the city council closed Lüderitz Street to traffic and Lüderitz Street could not be used at all, either to cross the railway line or to drive over Van der Hof Road. The reason for this was that too many accidents had happened. There had been 150 accidents in 11 years, seven of which had been fatal. Lüderitz Street was closed down and the traffic was diverted to the Hendrik Street and Bremer Street crossings, with the result that there were more accidents in those two streets. The reply given by the hon. the Minister’s predecessor last year read as follows—

Then I asked the chief traffic engineer of Pretoria: What is the position now? He wrote as follows—

I do not quite understand this. The hon. the Minister said last year that the financial aspect had been finalized, but the city engineer said that the Railways did not have the money. I think we are now blaming each other in connection with this matter. The closing of Lüderitz Street is causing enormous inconvenience. It is a busy street, it is an active community, and I have been instructed to ask the hon. the Minister, on behalf of three communities, the business community in Van der Hof Road, two schools and the taxpayers’ association, whether he will not please give us a bridge over the Lüderitz Street railway line.

Mr. Chairman, I do not wish to comment on the particular matter dealt with by the hon. member for Hercules. I should, however, just like to deal briefly with the hon. member for Verwoerdburg who has again criticized the attitude of this side of the House in regard to tariff increases.

The one question which nobody on that side has as yet answered—I sincerely hope the hon. the Minister will answer it—is why it is in fact necessary to transfer R171 million to the Revenue Reserve, because that is a reserve fund; and, secondly, why is it necessary to have increased the amount to be transferred to Revenue Reserve by R21 million? If that had not been done then even a little accounting exercise would show that there would not have been any need to increase any tariffs whatsoever. I think that that is a crucial point and nobody has attempted to answer it.

The second point I want to make to the hon. the Minister is in regard to the question that I raised in connection with the deconcentration policies of the Government and making the PWV area pay full tariffs. This is a very important matter which I want the hon. the Minister to deal with. I should like him to tell us specifically what in fact the amount of money is that is at present being used to subsidize lines in the PWV area. I want to give him the example of the Soweto line. What in fact is the subsidy in respect of this line? When the hon. the Minister talks about those commuters paying half a cent per kilometre, I should like to know what they would have to pay if they had to pay the full fare in that region.

The contribution is 40%.

Very well. Then we can take the total traffic on those lines and work out what the extra financial burden is going to be on the PWV area and also what the effect is going to be upon the employer, the employee and upon the inflation rate. This is a most fundamental matter that we are going to have to debate and we are going to have to have out. I say this because it has very far-reaching implications not only for the PWV area but for the whole of South Africa, the whole concept of creating jobs and the whole concept of solving South Africa’s problems. I would ask that this question be dealt with because it is probably one of the most important points in regard to the future development of South Africa.

I want now to come back to the question of S.A. Airways. There are a couple of points in this regard I should like to raise specifically with the hon. the Minister. In the first instance, is the hon. the Minister satisfied that the landing systems at our airports are the best and the most modern that we can obtain? I say this because I am a little concerned about the modernity of these particular landing systems. When I see a controller on television telling me that the reason why an airport has had to be closed down is because there was snow on the aerial, then I become a trifle worried. There may, of course, have been other reasons as well. I do not expect the Airways to spend millions in order to cater for the once-in-a-decade snow-storm. However, I do think that the landing systems need to be investigated in order to ensure that we do have the most modern systems available to deal with the kind of weather conditions that we can experience in South Africa. I think that that is very important.

The second point that I want to raise is the question of staff. There is no doubt that there is a shortage of technical staff. This applies to the Airways and it also applies in the S.A. Air Force. I want to ask the hon. the Minister whether it is not perhaps possible to have a more intensive recruiting drive in countries like the United Kingdom where there are surplus technicians in these categories, where there is a vast amount of unemployment and where we should be able to recruit this staff. However, I think that the hon. the Minister has then to talk to his colleague who deals with the screening of immigrants to South Africa because one of the complaints that one hears from these technical people is that very often it takes far too long before applications are processed and before these people are allowed to come to South Africa. I should like to see a major recruiting effort in respect of technical staff relating to aircraft taking place in the United Kingdom and other parts of Europe where such staff are available at the moment.

The third point I want to raise with the hon. the Minister—unfortunately I have virtually no time left—is the question of the courier service and the attitude of the S.A. Airways to couriers carrying either letters or small parcels. The result of the attitude of the Airways is that this is being done almost on a subterfuge basis in many cases. What is the attitude and why is it that this attitude is adopted in respect of couriers?

Lastly I want to deal with security in respect of the Airways. I welcome the steps that have been taken. In fact, I get the feeling that every now and again a degree of laxity creeps in. I think we should bear in mind that one has to be alert because things are going to happen when one least expects it.

Mr. Chairman, the hon. member for Yeoville touched on several matters. I trust that the hon. the Minister will reply to these later, for I have come to know the hon. the Minister through the years, not only when he was Minister of Agriculture, but now as Minister of Transport Affairs as well, as a person one can approach about any matter. He then makes a note of it and very soon there is a written reply.

Only the other day I brought something to his attention, and today I received a letter saying that the matter is receiving serious attention. I think more hon. members should get into the habit of approaching the hon. the Minister directly or having questions put on the Order Paper. If they did that, they would find that the hon. the Minister makes a thorough study of all questions to which answers are required.

During an earlier speech I discussed high-speed trains, among other things, but my time ran out before I had said everything I had intended to say about this. Before I continue my discussion of that subject, I want to mention another matter which is very close to my heart.

The hon. member for Swellendam also referred to this when he mentioned the small Makadas train which used to run between Touws River and Ladismith. In January this year, that railway line was completely washed away, and today that train is no longer running.

What we are dealing with here is actually a tragedy. The railway line was washed away over a great distance when the Touws River and the Groot River caused almost irreparable damage there. When I talk about that region of our country, I do so with strong sentiments, because I grew up in Vanwyksdorp, about 20 miles from Ladismith. I was living there as a young boy when the late Minister C. W. Malan officially opened that railway line at Ladismith. I remember that a big Union Jack was hoisted at the time—those were the days before we had our own national flag.

During the recent floods, alluvial soil—such soil is very valuable all over the world—was washed away by the water. Some farms were almost completely washed away—orchards, vineyards, fields and the soil which used to be there are simply no longer there. Diversion weirs and irrigation furrows which had been used for more than a century have all disappeared. In many parts the furrows will never be used again.

As regards the railway line on which the Makadas used to run, bridges were washed away and culverts were forced open. More than 30 km of that line has completely disappeared. Here and there is an abandoned bridge, because the river has completely changed its course. The fact is that that little train had become completely symbolic. It is invaluable and irreplaceable. It is calculated that it would cost between R30 million and R40 million to rebuild that line. It is also a fact that that line was never profitable. A further problem is that the Railways has to watch its expenditure. From an economic point of view, the line can never be rebuilt. However, money is not the only norm. I am thinking of the history of that line, which had almost become Africana. On that line one finds the names of stations such as Bloutoring, Allemorgens, Hondewater and Plathuis, and I find it unthinkable that these stations will no longer be there.

I recently saw a BBC programme dealing with “Great Train Journeys of the World”, and this specific one covered the journey from Cape Town to the Victoria Falls. I was greatly surprised when the fellow made a detour at Touws River, ending up at Hondewater, in a BBC programme of all places. I wonder what the English viewers made of the name of that station. Economic considerations are also relevant here and one wonders whether there is not some money left in the disaster fund which can be used to repair this railway line.

In the S.A. Railways and Harbours Magazine of January 1926, a small report appeared about the opening of this line. On that occasion, Minister Malan said—

Incidents such as these form part of railway history and are symbolized by the Makadas railway line. It is only 90 miles long, but it took the train from 9 o’clock in the morning till 6 o’clock in the evening to cover that distance. It is a long time since a train last travelled at such a speed, but it is seldom, too, that a train journey is as romantic as the one on the Makadas line between Ladismith and Touws River.

However, I want to come back to the high-speed trains and the various phases which now exist in this connection. The top management is now working on phase 1, where the maximum speed is taken into account, but where at the same time regard is had to the rolling stock which is in use at the moment. A good deal of this material will have to be replaced. In phase 2, a speed of 150 km per hour will eventually be reached, and locomotives will be modernized to enable them to attain this speed. This will be followed later by phase 3, in which an even higher speed will be attained, and eventually a speed of 200 km per hour will be attained in phase 4.

These high-speed experiments have been going on since November 1976, and I think the suburban trains are already travelling at 80 to 90 km per hour. Main line trains will eventually travel at 120 to 150 km per hour. Because we have only one line for traffic in both directions, the goods trains, too, will eventually have to travel at a higher speed, otherwise problems would arise.

I am glad, therefore, that this aspect is receiving attention. I think that parcel, container and motor carrying trains should maintain a maximum speed of 100 km an hour. Eight of the new coaches can easily convey 400 passengers, which means about 50 passengers per coach. In America last year, I travelled in one of these Amtrak coaches which was just like an aircraft, and there were about 80 passengers in that coach. So I wonder whether we cannot increase the number of passengers per coach during peak hours.

An Airbus with 254 passengers cost R28,5 million, while a highspeed train with two electronic units and nine coaches costs less than R5 million. A conventional train, such as those we have at the moment, costs R4½ million. As I have said, an aircraft is usually written off after 10 years, while a high-speed train is only written off after 20 years.

I have also worked out the capital expenditure per seat. In an Airbus there are 254 seats, while the train will have 450 seats. The capital cost per seat per flight for an Airbus is R10,91. For the high-speed train, it will be only R2,39, and this is one-fifth of the cost for a seat on an Airbus. So we shall have to come back to earth and travel by train more often.

The average speed of an Airbus is 509 km per hour. A high-speed train can attain a speed of 150 km per hour. Therefore a journey which would take 1 hour by Airbus would take more than 10 hours by ordinary train and only a little more than 5 hours in the high-speed train. The energy cost per seat on an Airbus is R10,21, while for a high-speed train it is only 78 cents.

Mr. Chairman, I should like to discuss one facet of the activities of the Railway Administration. This is an aspect which is not always highlighted, but which is nevertheless an indispensable element of the Railway Administration. I am referring to the maintenance of law and order at stations and on trains, in our harbours and at our airports. Without this, there would be chaos and disorder, and not only the Railway Administration would soon collapse, but our entire country would be paralysed.

The S.A. Railway Police are responsible for the maintenance of law and order at stations and on trains, in our harbours and at our airports. The Railway Police have an enormous responsibility to ensure that our national transport organization is properly operated and that the property of the people using the service and their personal safety are guaranteed as far as possible. Do we always realize what an important task rests on their shoulders?

I should like to indicate in broad outline the magnitude of their task. I want to do this by indicating some of the things that have to be protected. There is a route extending over more than 23 000 km across the length and breadth of the RSA and South West Africa that has to be secured. In addition, there are more than 10 000 bridges, 178 tunnels and about 1 000 stations. There are also nine sea harbours and 11 airports. To this may be added the fact that the rolling stock of the Railways consists of more than 19 000 goods trucks, almost 11 000 passenger coaches, more than 5 000 locomotives and 18 000 road transportation vehicles. There are also 38 aircraft. All these have to be protected. Then there is the daily quota of goods to be transported, the value of which is in excess of R500 million. A large part of those goods is attractive and easily accessible to thieves and therefore cannot be left unguarded.

We must also remember that 725 million main line and suburban passenger journeys are undertaken every year. In addition, a total number of 17,2 million passengers made use of the road transportation service of the Railways, while 3,7 million tons of goods were transported. The Airways also conveyed more than 4 million passengers.

The question which immediately arises is how the Railway Police manage to safeguard all this. I should like to give a general indication of how this is done. The Railway Police was established in 1916, and after its reorganization in 1934, this Force developed into an independent and full-fledged Force which is second to no other Force in the world in its own field. The Railway Police is not only responsible for maintaining law and order and investigating offences or alleged offences, but also for the internal security of the country and the prevention of crime. No wonder that the Railway Police have developed a community service which is the cornerstone of decency, a prerequisite for stability in any country. Not only is a large variety of laws enforced every day; in the process, contact is continually being made with other departments, several bodies and thousands of ordinary members of the public who make use of these people’s services every day. It goes without saying that the Railway Police, like all Police Forces in civilized countries, have to preserve a balance and harmony between a large variety of legal interests, where many conflicting legal interests arise. On the one hand, law and order must be maintained in such a way as not to destroy the freedom of the individual and the safety of the community. On the other hand, in pursuing this great ideal, the law must be enforced in such a way as not to disturb the good relations between the Railway Police and the public, as well as between the customer and the Railways. If this can be done, one has voluntary obedience to the law, instead of enforced obedience to the law, which in turn creates a feeling of confidence and security in every citizen, irrespective of his ethnic group, the colour of his skin, his descent or social status. Every individual knows that in this sphere of the S.A. Railways, the watchword is justice. Members of the Railway Police have the same rights and powers as those of the S.A. Police, but their jurisdiction is limited to Railways and Harbours. Of course, crimes beyond these boundaries can also be investigated by them if they are connected with the activities of the Railways. The S.A. Railways even continues to operate its services in some of the independent Black States, and there, too, the Railways acts in its own right. The Force also performs services on behalf of various other Government departments, especially at airports, where exchange control, passport control and customs activities are performed in a competent way. The Railway Police are fully integrated into the security set-up and the security forces in the Republic, and render valuable service in that respect as well. The security section has been very successful lately. As a result of the training of Railway operating staff, a considerable number of suspicious objects has been identified, disarmed and/or removed from the track in time. Suspected terrorists who had entered the country from neighbouring States have been identified, terrorists have been interrogated, prosecuted and, where necessary, repatriated. During the previous financial year, 32 persons were successfully prosecuted for distributing pamphlets and painting slogans.

I may just mention in passing that one of the latest additions to the activities of the Railways in Bloemfontein has been the training of Black members of the S.A. Railway Police. Since the middle of 1979, 200 members per course have been trained at the rate of two courses a year.

We are grateful to know that wherever possible, the Railway Police work in uniforms at stations and on trains so that they can be identified by the travelling public. I understand that this has been a great reassurance to the public. We should be glad if the S.A. Railways would continue this policy, and I want to ask the hon. the Minister whether it cannot be implemented on a larger scale. Considering the number of passengers conveyed every day, the crime rate in this connection is relatively low. For this we convey our sincere thanks to the Railway Police, who protect the passengers on our trains by means of intensified and co-ordinated action.

It is a pleasure for us to pay tribute to the Railway Police, who for the past 65 years have been serving the interests of the S.A. Railways, and thus the interests of South Africa, in an exemplary manner, in silence and behind the scenes.

Mr. Chairman, when I was addressing the House earlier this afternoon, I referred to the important role which the welfare organization called SAR Woman plays in the community. I now want to refer to the contribution made by the organization towards the provision of a recreation hall at the Johannesburg station for the women employed by the S.A. Railways. This provides those ladies with a place where they can relax during lunch times. Then I wish to refer to the contribution made by that organization at the time of the Laingsburg disaster. This association contributed an amount of R2 850 to the fund concerned. I think this is certainly a laudable attempt on the part of that association.

Furthermore, I want to refer to the holiday flats built at East London. The association had a share in that as well. It affords the Railway official an opportunity to enjoy a holiday with his family on the coast. Then one could also mention the service that is rendered to the families of our people who are doing border duty. There are 6 000 Railway employees who are doing their military duty on the border at the moment. This organization tries to promote the happiness of the families of those men on the border, the men in uniform. It is important for those men to know that there is an association, consisting of wives of the employees of the Railway Administration, who can look after them. There are also 4 000 Railway officials who are attending camps at the moment. Their families and dependants are also looked after by the association.

The S.A. Railway Association for the Care of the Aged is responsible for the care of elderly people who used to work for the Railways. However, when one considers the work done by the members of SAR Woman in visiting and helping elderly people who are ill, in hospitals as well as at home, one has the greatest appreciation for that. It is the policy of the Government that elderly people should continue to be involved in society. What is also important is that that association contributed an amount of R100 000 to the fund concerned. For this, too, one has the greatest appreciation.

This association is also active in other fields. However, this is not mentioned by the Opposition. In this connection one thinks, for example, of what the hon. member for Pietermaritzburg North said in this House. This welfare organization is also helping to ensure that the wives of people of colour in the service of the Railways will get their own association to serve their own people.

One has only the greatest gratitude and appreciation for our welfare organizations, and especially for SAR Woman, to which I am referring this afternoon. Those people are serving the community with dedication. There are other organizations, too, which one could mention. In this way, for example, there is the Vrou- en Moederbeweging, a welfare organization which also serves the community. Those people are inspired by their devotion to the cause. It is a matter of great importance to them to serve the community. Reference has been made in this debate to the way in which our Railway employees used to live together in specific areas. That practice has now been abandoned. The Railway people have now been integrated into our community as a whole. They pull their weight in every sphere of society. In every congregation in the country, for example, there are railway officials who serve as office-bearers of the church, to whatever denomination they may belong.

The railway people are active in women’s societies as well. We may think, for example, of the S.A. Women’s Federation. We find Railwaymen and their wives serving on school boards and committees, and even in municipalities. The hon. member for Standerton referred last night, for example, to a railwayman who used to be the mayor of his town. There is nothing unusual about that these days. The railwayman is taking his place in every sphere of society.

I should like to refer to the attitude of the railwayman to society as a whole. In this connection, I should like to quote several figures in order to show the contribution made by the railwayman to charitable organizations. Between 1961 and 1980, a total amount of R117 667 was contributed by railway people to the St. John organization. Over the same period, their contribution to the children’s homes of the S.A. Railways and Harbours amounted to R1 126 567. They contributed R1 511 000 to the Elim clinic over the same period, and their contribution to the War Services Union of the S.A. Railways and Harbours was R293 000. They contributed R145 000 to SAR Woman and they gave more than R2 million for the care of the aged. Between 1961 and 1981, too, Railway officials contributed R341 000 to the S.A. Noodhulpliga, R16 700 to the Vrou- en Moederbeweging, R164 000 to the Southern Cross Fund, and R165 000 to the Christmas Fund of Die Transvaler. During the same period, the Kinderstrandfonds of Die Vaderland received a total amount of R92 000 from railway officials, and Santa an amount of R67 000, while the S.A. Guide Dogs for the Blind received an amount of R15 606 from these people. I quote these figures to show that our railway people, who are in the service of the biggest employer in our country, are willing to contribute generously to the South African community.

Mr. Chairman, I shall react tomorrow to the speech made by the hon. member for Witbank. It was an interesting speech and also a very informative one.

To begin with, however, I want to reply to certain questions asked by the hon. member for Berea. His first inquiry was in connection with the aircraft for so-called Cabinet meetings in the sky. The hon. member has got hold of the wrong end of the stick altogether. [Interjections.] We are getting 13 new aircraft, as the hon. member knows. I have said repeatedly that the fuel consumption of some of our Boeing 737 aircraft is such that when they are flying with full loads, they have become uneconomical compared with the new aircraft. Conveying the State President and his staff has long presented us with a problem. If we made use of an aircraft with a minimal book value—at least, this was the conclusion we came to—it would be the best solution to adapt that aircraft with its 56 seats to convey the State President and his staff. We do have such an aircraft available, an aircraft which will no longer be used for commercial flights. However, we shall use that aircraft for other official purposes as well. Suppose we received an official visit from a friendly country, and the delegation that came to visit us consisted of more than 40 people—I am thinking specifically of Taiwan—surely we could use that aircraft for transporting the people concerned. Now we have an aircraft we can use on such occasions. Why should hon. members of the Opposition start shouting “fat cats” again and try to turn this matter into a political issue? [Interjections.]

When I go to the USA, for example, and I visit the John Deere company, my host tells me—this has actually happened—“I shall not be able to accompany you tomorrow, but my private Boeing 727 will take you where you wish.” [Interjections.]

Order!

When we come to a country like South Africa, what happens? What happens if we are visited by a group of people from Taiwan, for example?

Anton Rupert could also do what you have just described. [Interjections.]

For you, Marius, they can simply put a matchbox on two wheels. [Interjections.]

Order!

When we consider the economy of the matter, I say there is no problem. This is an aircraft with 56 seats. In an emergency we could even use that aircraft for other purposes. Therefore I say quite frankly that if it is necessary to use that aircraft for transporting specific Ministers, under specific circumstances, we shall do so. However, I think that … [Interjections.]

There is one thing I must make quite clear. When we compare the standard of living of our hon. Prime Minister with that of Prime Ministers in comparable countries elsewhere in the world, we see a very interesting picture. Look at the kind of transport which such Prime Ministers use, for example. I could tell you what was spent on the transportation of Ministers when those dandies opposite were ruling this country 40 years ago. They drove around in imported Packards, cars which were imported in great numbers. Give them an inch and they will take an ell. However, my hon. Prime Minister uses a car which is more modest than that of a Deputy Minister in any other African country.

Listening to the hon. member for Yeoville makes me wonder how people sometimes argue in a debate of this nature. In a Railways debate in February this year, the hon. member for Yeoville addressed a very valid request to me. He said that we should give attention to a certain matter and that the hours worked by our air hostesses and airport staff were too long. As a result of his request, we worked out a timetable. We were mindful of the fact that we could not make those people work non-stop, that they could not be on duty for more than a certain number of hours per week. We also made a special attempt to recruit more air hostesses. However, we did not find enough of them. Air hostesses do not remain in the service permanently either. On top of that, we are getting 13 new aircraft, two of which are being delivered this month. The rest will be delivered over the next eight or nine months. For those aircraft, too, we must obtain additional cabin staff. In any event, each aircraft does not have only one team of air hostesses. The aircraft must fly as much as it possibly can. For every aircraft, therefore, we must have several teams of air hostesses. On top of that, we have to find staff for 13 new aircraft as well.

Now the hon. member for Yeoville alleges that he was told by an air hostess at Jan Smuts Airport that she was bored, that she had no work to do. Almost in the same breath, however, the hon. member asked why there was a difference between the salaries of White air hostesses and air hostesses of colour. [Interjections.] I have already said that we are narrowing the gap. However, it is not something which can be done overnight. In any event, it has nothing to do with the grade of the air hostess. It is related to the respective posts. If a Coloured girl who is fully qualified becomes an air hostess and she has gone through the entire cycle, what happens then? One does not become an air hostess overnight. People are trained over a long period. They must learn, for example, how to address people, etc. In the long run, however, that Coloured air hostess is going to receive the same salary as her White counterpart. However, she must first go through the whole process. I want to give the hon. member for Yeoville the assurance that that is exactly what we have in mind. We want to eliminate this difference in salaries between the various colour groups, and we want to do it as soon as possible.

†The hon. member for Amanzimtoti asked why we should take drivers from Zimbabwe and appoint them in South Africa as assistant drivers.

I thought you had a shortage of staff.

If a driver in South Africa should resign and come back after a year or two, it is only logical that he cannot be reappointed immediately in his original capacity as a driver. He can only be reappointed as an assistant driver. When we have to accommodate someone from another country, why should we not rather upgrade our own people by appointing the newcomer as an assistant. Ultimately he can also become a driver.

*Surely one cannot simply throw open the doors, overlook one’s own people and appoint the man from Zimbabwe as a full-fledged driver at once. Surely a balance must be preserved, and in any event, one has to consider one’s own people.

Does that apply to every level of employees in the S.A. Railways?

No, not to every level. It all depends on the circumstances. I cannot, however, give the undertaking that everybody who comes here from Zimbabwe—if he was a driver there—will immediately be appointed as a driver in South Africa.

Does that apply to engineers, for instance?

Business interrupted in accordance with Standing Order No. 22.

House Resumed:

Progress reported and leave granted to sit again.