FRIDAY, 7 APRIL 2000 __

                PROCEEDINGS OF THE NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
                                ____

The House met at 09:30.

The Deputy Chairperson of Committees took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayers or meditation.

ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS - see col 000.

                    WELCOMING OF MEMBERS OF SANDF

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! We are glad to see so many members of our armed forces in the gallery. We welcome them to Parliament. We feel particularly protected today. [Laughter.]

                          NOTICES OF MOTION

Ms N E HANGANA: Chair, I give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the ANC:

That the House -

(1) notes the death from cancer yesterday of the Cape Town anti-apartheid stalwart Gaby Shapiro;

(2) remembers that she was born in what later became East Berlin and as a little girl had to live under the evil reign of Nazi Germany;

(3) acknowledges her passionate commitment and contribution to the struggle for freedom and democracy in South Africa and the love with which she touched other people’s lives; and

(4) expresses its condolences to all her loved ones who have lost an exceptional wife, mother, grandmother, friend and comrade.

[Applause.]

Mr A SINGH: Chair, I give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the DP:

That the House -

(1) recognises that the Department of Welfare has, over the past five years, failed dismally to spend significant portions of its budget, thereby denying the poorest of the poor the right to social support;

(2) notes that the Committee on Public Accounts has found that the Welfare Ministry, along with the department, must accept responsibility for this failure, as R103 million of the budget allocated for poverty is still unspent; and

(3) calls on the department to carry out a thorough review of the activities of the department and take strong action against the persons responsible for the problems, even if such persons included the Minister.

[Interjections.]

Mrs I MARS: Chairperson, I give notice that at the next sitting of the House I shall move on behalf of the IFP: That the House appeals to the Minister for Provincial and Local Government to create a facility at which caring and concerned members of the House can deliver clothing, blankets and donations for the benefit of the many families whose homes and belongings were destroyed by the recent flood.

Mr L ZITA: Chairperson, I give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the ANC:

That the House -

(1) notes that the South African economy has been given a boost by the news that exports in the first two months of this year increased by R5 billion compared to the same period last year;

(2) recognises that this follows on the positive reception of the Minister of Finance’s Budget speech in which he projected an annual growth rate of 3% for the next three years;

(3) acknowledges that the Government’s sound economic policies are leading to economic stability; and (4) calls on the Government to proceed with its excellent work in building a better life for all South Africans.

Mr R S SCHOEMAN: Mr Chairman, I give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I will move on behalf of the New NP:

That the House -

(1) notes with shock and concern the decision of the Zimbabwean parliament to allow the illegal occupation of commercial and other agricultural land in that country, without compensation, and condemns the decision in the strongest possible terms;

(2) expresses its grave concern at the negative impact on the image of and investment in the SADC region; and

(3) calls on President Mbeki to take the lead in calling for an emergency summit meeting of SADC leaders to discuss this crisis.

Prof L M MBADI: Chairperson, I give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I will move on behalf of the UDM:

That the House -

(1) notes with concern -

   (a)  the heavy-handed action by security forces when, among others,
       teargas and bulldozers were used to disperse a blockade by taxis
       in Umzimkulu in the Eastern Cape on 16 February 2000, which
       resulted in injury to people and serious damage to a number of
       vehicles;

   (b)  the deplorable state of the roads in Umzimkulu which led to the
       action by the taxi drivers and about which nothing has been done
       by the responsible authorities;

   (c)  the fact that these authorities do not seem to recognise that
       this blockade was a peaceful protest against the collapse of the
       road infrastructure in the area and not in protest against the
       Government's recapitalisation proposals for the taxi industry,
       which have given rise to taxi protests elsewhere ...

[[Interjections.] Time expired.]

Mr G Q M DOIDGE: Chairperson, on a point of order: Is it in order for the hon member to mislead the House?

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! That is not a point of order.

Mr G Q M DOIDGE: Chairperson, it is! What the member has read is, in fact, not true. [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! We will not know the facts until we have verified them.

Mr G Q M DOIDGE: Are you undertaking to do so, Chair?

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! We will do so. Please be seated.

Mr P A C HENDRICKSE: Chairperson, I give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the ANC: That the House -

(1) notes that the burning of motor vehicle tyres is an environmental hazard that results in grave air pollution, which may cause health problems, including birth defects, miscarriages and cancer, as well as allergies and asthma;

(2) welcomes the report that the Department of Environmental Affairs and Tourism has appointed consultants to look at solutions to deal with waste tyre disposal;

(3) looks forward to creative solutions to encourage the proper disposal of waste tyres; and

(4) urges members of the public and the tyre and motor industries to dispose of waste tyres in a responsible manner at hazardous waste sites.

[Applause.]

Ms C DUDLEY: Chairperson, I give notice that at the next sitting of the House I shall move on behalf of the ACDP: That the House -

(1) expresses its concern at the decision by the SA Human Rights Commission that homosexuals have a constitutional right to donate blood;

(2) calls on the HRC not to elevate political correctness at the expense of common sense and sound, internationally proven medical decision- making;

(3) acknowledges that the Blood Transfusion Service’s decision is a medical decision and not a human rights issue;

(4) notes that the service turns away all people, heterosexual and homosexual, who engage in risky sexual behaviour;

(5) acknowledges that there is an HIV/Aids epidemic in South Africa, and in view of limited funds and limited available personnel, the Blood Transfusion Service should be allowed to make such decisions in the best interests of the nation; and

(6) calls on all people of South Africa to behave morally and responsibly and on all those who engage in risky sexual behaviour, or who have partners who do so, to refrain from donating blood.

[Interjections.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! Hon members, there is too much noise in the House today!

Gen C L VILJOEN: Chairperson, I give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I will move on behalf of the FF:

That the House -

(1) takes note of the indirect attempt at character assassination on the leader of the FF in a notice of motion on behalf of the ANC on 6 April 2000 with regard to a court case involving his daughter;

(2) takes note of the fact that the case referred to is sub judice and that it would be inappropriate to comment on it or give details; (3) further notes that the facts so far reported are slanted, not complete and will only be known once the case is complete; and

(4) resolves that it would be wise to wait for all the details before drawing conclusions, condemning a fellow member of Parliament or his family.

Mrs R N CAPA: Chairperson, I give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the ANC:

That the House -

(1) notes with concern media reports in which it is alleged that the AWB leader, Eugène Terre’Blanche, is receiving preferential treatment in prison;

(2) recognises that the Department of Correctional Services has launched an investigation into the allegations regarding the Potchefstroom prison; and

(3) calls on the department to conclude its investigation speedily and to ensure fairness towards everyone and preferential treatment for no one. [Applause.]

Mnr A J BOTHA: Mnr die Voorsitter, ek gee kennis dat ek op die volgende sittingsdag namens die DP sal voorstel:

Dat die Huis -

(1) daarvan kennis neem dat die Minister van Arbeid eensydig die permitte opgeskort het wat gebruiklik toegestaan is aan Lesotho-burgers om oeswerk op Vrystaatse plase te verrig;

(2) besef dat hierdie optrede groot lyding veroorsaak het by die betrokke Lesotho-burgers op ‘n tydstip toe hulle ekonomies ernstig geknou is deur onrus in Lesotho, wat gedeeltelik veroorsaak is deur die Suid- Afrikaanse Regering se optrede;

(3) verder daarvan kennis neem dat hierdie opskorting groot ontwrigting veroorsaak het in die landbou, met gepaardgaande ekonomiese verliese, ‘n verlies aan uitvoergeleenthede en ‘n verlies aan plaaslike werksgeleenthede;

(4) daarop let dat die Minister se rede vir hierdie optrede plaaslike werkloosheid is, maar dat hy dit nie in ag neem by die toestaan van sodanige permitte aan Lesotho-burgers om vir die Vrystaatse mynbedryf te werk nie; en

(5) ten sterkste by die Minister van Arbeid aandring op die gelyke behandeling van die verskillende sektore deur onmiddellik permitte vir landboudoeleindes uit te reik en dat hy spesifiek nie sy veldtog van verdagmakery teen die landbou voortsit nie. (Translation of Afrikaans notice of motion follows.)

[Mr A J BOTHA: Mr Chairman, I give notice that on the next sitting day, I shall move on behalf of the DP:

That the House -

(1) notes that the Minister of Labour has unilaterally suspended the permits that are customarily granted to Lesotho citizens to perform harvesting work on Free State farms;

(2) realises that this action has caused great suffering among the Lesotho citizens concerned at a time when they have been economically seriously harmed by unrest in Lesotho, which was partially caused by actions of the South African Government;

(3) further notes that this suspension has greatly disrupted agriculture, with accompanying economic losses, a loss of exporting opportunities and a loss of local job opportunities;

(4) notes that the Minister’s reason for this action is local unemployment, but that he does not take this into consideration when granting such permits to Lesotho citizens to work in the Free State mining industry; and

(5) insists in the strongest terms that the Minister of Labour treat the various sectors equally by immediately issuing permits for agricultural purposes, and that he specifically does not continue with his campaign of suspicion-mongering against agriculture.]

Mnr D A A OLIFANT: Mnr die Voorsitter, ek gee hiermee kennis dat ek op die volgende sittingsdag namens die ANC sal voorstel:

Dat die Huis -

(1) daarvan kennis neem dat die Silwerstroomstrand die enigste strand in die Kaapse Skiereiland was waar toegangsgeld betaalbaar was, terwyl die toegang tot alle ander strande gratis was;

(2) verder kennis neem dat die gemeenskappe van Atlantis, Mamre, Pella en Witsand, onder leiding van die ANC, op 8 Januarie 2000 protesoptrede geloods het teen dié soort eksklusiwiteit wat ten doel gehad het om swartmense uit te sluit;

(3) ook daarvan kennis neem dat die plaaslike owerheid geforseer word om die strand gratis aan die publiek oop te stel; en

(4) die ANC gelukwens vir sy toegewydheid aan die stryd vir menseregte en teen rassisme, sowel as die ANC se praktiese uitlewing van die slagspreuk ``Al God se strande vir al God se mense’’. (Translation of Afrikaans notice of motion follows.)

[Mr D A A OLIFANT: Mr Chairperson, I hereby give notice that I shall move on the next sitting day on behalf of the ANC:

That the House -

(1) notes that Silwerstroomstrand was the only beach in the Cape Peninsula where an entrance fee was payable while entrance to all other beaches was free;

(2) further notes that on 8 January 2000 the communities of Atlantis, Mamre, Pella and Witsand, headed by the ANC, launched protest actions against this type of selectivity which was aimed at the exclusion of black people;

(3) also notes that the local authority was forced to open this beach for free to the public; and

(4) congratulates the ANC on its commitment to the struggle for human rights and against racism, as well as the ANC’s practical implementation of the slogan: ``All of God’s beaches for all of God’s people’’.

[Applause.]]

Mr S SIMMONS: Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the New NP:

That the House -

(1) commends the decision by the Cabinet to render all services and resources available to assist those in the various provinces who were recently affected by the devastating natural disasters in the form of hurricanes, cyclones and floods;

(2) notes, however, that the community of Hondeklip Bay along the West Coast in Namaqualand in the Northern Cape province has for some time not been provided with clean potable water owing to red tape;

(3) notes that the negotiations between the mining diamond giant De Beers and the Department of Water Affairs and Forestry to provide a water service to Hondeklip Bay have been in progress for over two years, without any finality being reached; and

(4) calls upon the Government to render the necessary services and resources to improve the wellbeing of the Hondeklip Bay residents by providing potable water in accordance with RDP standards.

Mr M N RAMODIKE: Chairperson, I give notice that at the next sitting of the House I will move on behalf of the UDM:

That the House -

(1) notes revelations and reports by some senior Government officials regarding the misuse and mismanagement of funds, involving 32 housing projects in the Northern Province and an amount of up to R500 million, which implicate, inter alia, the former Housing MEC of the Northern Province;

(2) notes that findings regarding these projects have already been submitted to the President;

(3) further notes that the misuse and mismanagement of funds in the Northern Province recur unabated, such as the mismanagement of funds disclosed by the Semenya Commission;

(4) deplores and condemns the provincial government for its failure to take decisive steps regarding the management of funds; and

(5) calls on the Government and/or the NCOP to intervene and normalise the situation.

Ms M VERWOERD: Chairperson, I give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the ANC:

That the House -

(1) notes -

   (a)  the recent flow of raw sewage into False Bay;

   (b)  that there have been 16 raw sewage spills over the past year;

   (c)  that the Cape Metropolitan Council now acknowledges that these
       spills pose serious health and environmental risks; and

   (d)  that the stench is unbearable for the people of Macassar;

(2) agrees with the local people that these spills are directly related to the bad planning of the New NP-controlled CMC which should have had the foresight timeously to expand the sewage works;

(3) agrees that the New NP-controlled provincial authorities do not have the health and welfare of this community and environment at heart; and

(4) reiterates the call of the people of Macassar for this matter to be sorted out speedily.

                    WELCOMING OF NCOP CHAIRPERSON

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! Hon members, before we proceed to the Orders of the Day, I wish to recognise and welcome the Chairperson of the NCOP, the hon Naledi Pandor, to this Chamber. I trust that she will enjoy an interesting debate on the Defence Vote. [Applause.]

                         APPROPRIATION BILL

Debate on Vote No 7 - Defence:

The MINISTER OF DEFENCE: Mr Chairperson, hon members, the defence function is about developing and maintaining the capability to ward off threats or dangers to this country and its people. Some of these are human-made, yet others arise from natural forces.

The most memorable record of South Africa’s defence capability in recent times was the newspaper reportage, as well as radio and television footage

• broadcast throughout the world - of SA National Defence Force personnel and aircraft in action, flying rescue missions in Mozambique. We saw dramatic displays of skill, courage, discipline and heroism, including the breathtaking rescue of Sophia Pedro, a young Mozambican woman who had just given birth to a baby girl in a tree.

During those weeks, while the international community hesitated, the SA National Defence Force flew a total of 955,7 hours, using 82 uniformed members and consuming some 484 049 litres of petrol in the process of saving more than 14 000 Mozambicans from certain death. [Applause.] These were SANDF personnel performing their duty as our nation expected of them. There could be no more eloquent testament of the need for a Defence Force with capacity, a properly equipped National Defence Force with well trained personnel, loyal to the national objectives and with the capacity to perform the missions that this country, the region and, indeed, the rest of the world expect of us.

Three to four years ago, the need to equip our National Defence Force afresh was identified. An acquisition programne was drawn up and central to it was the creation of a number of mechanisms and procedures to ensure a reliable process and transparency. The process has been followed to the last letter. The procedures that were followed are under the scrutiny of the Auditor-General at present. I am confident that any irregularities that may have occurred will be uncovered and dealt with accordingly.

The arms packages entail the acquisition of the following equipment: Three German submarines, four German corvettes, 30 Italian light utility helicopters, 28 Swedish and British light fighter aircraft and 24 British fighter-trainer aircraft. The total value of the package programme amounts to R29 992 million, which will be paid over a 12-year period. The overall commitment of the value of the offset programmes, coupled with the supply contract, amounts to approximately R104 billion.

Sceptics continue to question the wisdom of the decision to re-equip the National Defence Force. I place on record this morning that the capital equipment of the SA National Defence Force has reached a state of block obsolescence. They will, however, be maintained until they can be replaced with newer generation equipment. The ships being used by the Navy at present will be obsolete by the year 2004, after which the Navy will have no surface capacity if new ships are not acquired now. Similarly, the decommissioning of the Daphne submarines by 2005 will leave the navy with no underwater capability, should the acquisition of new submarines not be initiated at this time.

The Alouette III helicopters currently in use by the SA Air Force were bought during the early 1960s and will finally be decommissioned during

1. They will be replaced by the Italian Agusta light utility helicopters. We have trimmed down the original request made by the Air Force from 60 to 30 helicopters. The 24 Impala jet trainer aircraft due to be decommissioned during 2007 will be replaced by 12 Hawk aircraft. We will review the situation again in 2002, when an option to acquire 12 more will be examined.

It should be noted that the SA Air Force has significantly downscaled its frontline capability over the past few years. Where the SA Air Force at one time operated a total of 54 frontline fighter aircraft, these will now be replaced with only 9 Gripen fighters. An option to acquire another 19 will be examined in 2004. These currently approved package programmes will only provide for the capital renewal requirements of the SA Navy and the SA Air Force. The Department of Defence will henceforth embark on the planned capital renewal programme for the SA Army, which will primarily consist of a domestic acquisition programme.

The strategic defence packages have given a sharper focus to the issue of arms control. The SA defence industry is currently regulated by the White Paper on Defence, the White Paper on SA Defence-related Industries and the Armaments Development and Production Act. This Act is currently being revised and wide consultation will take place. In addition, South Africa conforms to the international code of conduct on the arms trade by way of the National Conventional Arms Control Committee which meets regularly and reports to Parliament quarterly. This committee is convened under the able leadership of and chaired by Minister Kader Asmal.

As the dramatic rescue missions of the past few weeks have demonstrated, the need for quality capital equipment has raised a profound political and tactical question. What do we emphasise more in our future force preparation: the capacity to threaten our neighbours as a deterrent or the capacity to be of more help to them so as to surround ourselves with a field of friends? This is a question that will have to engage us in the coming period.

We are now training for peacekeeping. Operation Blue Crane and Operation Blue Hungwe were carried out under the auspices of SADC and were joint exercises with our regional partners. But now South Africa is increasingly inundated with requests from her neighbours for assistance in training for peacekeeping. If we can contribute to the capacity of our neighbours to participate in peacekeeping missions, then they will effectively share the burden of peacekeeping missions in the region, so that instead of us acting on behalf of others, we act with them.

We remain ready and prepared to deploy our forces when and if we are requested to do so by the United Nations, and that is in spite of efforts to discredit this country’s role in the peace process in the DRC. I appeal to hon members this morning not to make assertions which undermine this country’s role in regional peace initiatives. Doubt about South Africa’s motives could create a dangerous atmosphere for those of our SA National Defence Force members who may be deployed in neighbouring countries. [Applause.] In this regard, the hon Bantu Holomisa’s allegations during the President’s debate and his questionable sorties into the DRC without even informing our diplomatic mission there raise serious concern for me. [Interjections.]

Turning to the transformation process of the Department of Defence, the integration intake process of the statutory and nonstatutory forces is now drawing to a close. This process has taken much longer than originally anticipated, but we are now in the last phase. We will be introducing legislation to finalise the process during the course of this year. Integration has been both a complicated and a sensitive process, fraught with difficulties, but overall, it has been successful. The foundation has firmed up.

One of the recommendations of the Defence Review was the downsizing of the SANDF. To effect this …

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! Order, hon Minister!

Dr C P MULDER: Chairperson, on a point of order: I am sorry to disturb the hon the Minister, but I need your ruling, sir. We are being entertained this morning with video clips being shown throughout the Minister’s speech. I would like to have your ruling, sir. Is that the way in which Parliament will be conducted in future? For the simple reason, sir … [Interjections.] I would like to know this for the simple reason that if that is going to be the way in which all speeches are going to be conducted, our party also has videos that we would like to show to the public on television. [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! Hon member, please be seated. [Interjections.] Order! Order! Hon member and the House, the Minister of Defence is giving his speech on the Defence Vote and appropriate matters are being shown on the screen for your benefit and that of the House. [Interjections.] [Applause.]

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Chairperson, now that you have ruled on the matter, I am satisfied. [Applause.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! Hon member, is this further to the point of order you raised?

Dr C P MULDER: Yes, Chairperson, but I need clarity on your ruling, if you will allow me, please.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! I will not allow you to debate my ruling. [Applause.] Hon member, please be seated and put whatever you want to say in writing to the Speaker or to me directly. I have given a ruling.

Dr C P MULDER: Chairperson, I will put it in writing, because I need to know if this is going to be the future ruling.

The MINISTER: I think because of that interruption, I may get some extra time.

One of the recommendations of the Defence Review was the downsizing of the SANDF. [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! Hon members, the Minister is delivering his speech. Please be courteous.

The MINISTER: To effect this, we will be guided by the employer-initiated retrenchment scheme currently being formulated by the Government. We are also working with other relevant departments to retrain and remuster some of our numbers due for rationalisation. The participation and concern of the parliamentary committees on this issue has been most valuable. Their oversight ensures that the department remains on track and proceeds correctly.

The composition of the SANDF must be demographically representative. The same applies to the composition of our officer corps. This necessitates that training must be shaped to ensure representivity and a balanced force for the future. Training is a key strategic area under the Chief of the SANDF. Training policy is determined by the Defence Secretariat under my political guidance. Strategic planning is therefore essential to ensure succession planning for the present and for the future. We will be reviewing the arms industry with a view to developing a clear strategy for the industry.

At the same time the conversion of the industry is under discussion. We will be introducing legislation - hopefully at the end of this year - in the form of the new Armscor Act, which will reflect the needs of a transformed department in a new South Africa.

The complex world of defence intelligence has always been difficult to handle. The Moerane commission is now completing its work. We will then be in a position to examine its findings closely, and we will look at its recommendations with a view to implementation.

The previous system of military discipline posed a challenge to the transformation process. It was found that the problems around integration were reflected in the military justice system and grievance procedures. When, therefore, the Constitutional Court ruled that the disciplinary system was unconstitutional, we had to take immediate measures. Subsequently, the Military Discipline Supplementary Measures Act was passed last year. I have requested the Secretary for Defence to monitor its implementation. We are committed to making this system work fairly for all members of the force to enable them to have legal representation.

However, we have to tighten discipline in the National Defence Force. We have recently introduced a code of conduct which must extend to all ranks of the SANDF. The National Defence Force members who are faced with charges of murder, rape, attempted murder, pointing of a firearm and similar offences in that category will have to stay out of our bases until the courts have cleared them. The presence of persons who are charged under this category of crime in the base has a seriously demoralising ill-effect on all the members of the force, and a generally debilitating impact on discipline as a whole.

The modernisation of the National Defence Force has necessitated, among other things, the incorporation of an appropriate value system. Training in the National Defence Force must reflect this realignment. Previously, the preparation of troops centred around preparation for war. This must now be extended to include participation in peacekeeping and training for development.

The massacre at Tempe was a tragedy for the country at large and for the department specifically. The ministerial commission of inquiry into the Tempe massacre will be making its preliminary report by the end of June. I take this opportunity to recognise Dr Setai, Mrs Lamani and Col Mbongwe, who are here with us this morning. Gen Geldenhuys did tender an apology. We are taking this inquiry very seriously and will be delving into the heart of this problem in order to dig out problems and consider solutions.

What has clearly emerged at this point in time is that there are a few elements, a minority, in the SANDF - drawn from both the former statutory and nonstatutory forces - who are not loyal to the national objectives. [Interjections.] They are busy with activities which seek to disrupt the process of bringing together members of the National Defence Force. They constitute a criminal element. Whether they are those who attempted to celebrate the Kasinga massacre or those involved in murder and rape, they are a scourge.

Our organisational culture will have to be addressed. We will be looking beyond the scope of the civic education programme with regard to its effectiveness to make sure that there is no place for them. The National Defence Force must, indeed, become the foremost institution which the youth of our country can look up to as a beginning and a preparation for their future. [Applause.]

HIV/Aids is a strategy and a security issue for the SANDF. It must receive higher priority and attention. We are now fighting to break the silence around this issue. We aim to create an environment within the National Defence Force for soldiers to speak out. We must encourage, as the rest of society is now doing, voluntary testing and peer support. We must identify soldiers who are prepared to declare their status and use them as counsellors of their colleagues in the National Defence Force.

We will be introducing six pieces of legislation this year. The first and foremost is the new Defence Bill, to replace the outdated Act originally drawn up in 1957. This Bill regulates the defence function and has taken shape over the past four years. It has had to be recast continually, in line with the transformation of the department and the compilation of the Defence Review. The Bill is now before the Cabinet committee, where it is being examined closely.

I would like to recognise the work of the Defence Act work group for the work they put into this Bill. The work group, set up by Minister Modise - well, former Minister Modise - is composed of members of Parliament, experts from different fields and senior members of the department.

The National Conventional Arms Control Committee is to be institutionalised and given the necessary status, in accordance with its task. Legislation to this effect is already with the state law advisers and will be tabled shortly.

As we terminate the integration intake of statutory and nonstatutory forces, legislation to this effect is in the pipeline. The Termination of Integration Intake Bill brings this process to its finalisation. This goes with two other small pieces of legislation. The first is an amendment to the Demobilisation Act and the second is a minor amendment to the Constitution, both of which at present leave the process open-ended. We will also be introducing an amendment to the Defence Endowment Property and Account Act.

An interdepartmental team has drawn up a draft or framework of foreign defence policy. Central to it is: the promotion of security and defence co- operation and co-ordination; the strengthening of regional security and defence institutions; the promotion and development of stable civil- military relations; the design and implementation of confidence and security-building measures; the establishment of communication and other procedures for addressing interstate tension around military matters; ensuring effective border control; participation in disaster relief and other humanitarian operations; the promotion of regional co-ordination in preparing for peace support operations; and the promotion of co-operation and co-ordination in a variety of specialised fields, for example naval matters and aviation matters.

South Africa’s regional peace initiatives have been widely covered in the media. Current efforts, led by the Minister of Foreign Affairs, have been in relation to the Democratic Republic of Congo. We are also participating in the retraining of the Lesotho Defence Force. We are putting hard work and effort into the strengthening of the SADC Organ on Politics, Peace and Security. We are working hard with our regional counterparts to achieve consensus on this issue.

Our constitutional obligations stipulate that the Defence Force must be structured and managed as a disciplined military force; that the primary object of the Defence Force is to defend and protect the Republic; and that the Defence Force may be employed, in co-operation with the Police Service, in defence of the Republic or in fulfilment of any international obligation.

Peace in the region, and on the continent, is an essential component of South Africa’s security system. The social and economic upliftment of our people, however, is the best guarantor of security.

The general trend, noted in the Auditor-General’s report, is not good. The Auditor-General says that inadequate controls are in place, that there is limited compliance with Treasury regulations, and that vigorous internal control is far from what is should be. Most disturbing, however, is that the regulations of the Standing Committee on Public Accounts, which are passed by Parliament, are either ignored or flouted. Corrective measures have now been taken, and the Secretary for Defence has set up an independent audit committee, reporting directly to me. This committee had its first meeting two weeks ago.

Finally, I would like to acknowledge some people here. I take this opportunity firstly to thank my Deputy Minister, whose contribution is of invaluable worth. She plays a key role in the areas we have assigned to her, namely, firstly, the decision-making structures of the department; secondly, legislation undertaken in the department; and, thirdly, the budget, its process and function. [Applause.]

Then, the secretariat, whose existence is enshrined in the Constitution, has had an exceptionally difficult time this year. After the departure of Pierre Steyn, who steered the secretariat through the first stage of transition, Mr Mamatho Netsianda acted in this post for over a year. We would like to thank him for this. [Applause.]

The Defence Secretary, Mr January Masilela, was appointed on 1 December last year, and has already taken control of his function. We wish him well and success in the years that lie ahead. [Applause.] Sadly, we have also lost our chief of policy planning, Mr Aboobaker Ismail. He has moved to head the security division at the SA Reserve Bank. He played a key role in the creation and functioning of the secretariat and we would like to wish him well in his new post. The effective functioning of the secretariat is of paramount importance. Together with the secretary, we will be looking at strengthening the secretariat.

I would also like to thank the Chief of the National Defence Force, Gen Nyanda, who has borne numerous difficulties during the course of this year. He is playing a key role in the transformation of the department. [Applause.] Special thanks go to members of the Defence Staff Council and all members of the department who have gone to such lengths to enable the transition of the changeover of Ministers and made this transition smooth and effective.

The Ministry has two advisers, and I would like to thank them both for their contribution. My thanks also go to the new staff of the Office of the Minister. I would also like to give a special word of thanks to BMATT, the British Military Advisory Training Team, for their consistent contribution throughout the year. My thanks also go to the team at Armscor.

Last, but not least, many thanks to the parliamentary oversight bodies, namely the portfolio committee, the joint standing committee and the select committee. These committees, under the able leadership of the hon Thandi Modise, Ntshiki Mashimbye and Jabu Mahlangu, keep us on our toes at all times and vigorously monitor all that we do. [Applause.] We appreciate their commitment and hard work in this process. I hope that they do not mind the moments when we clash. [Laughter.] Their involvement bears testament to our understanding of defence in a democracy and reflects the importance we attach to accountability and civil control over the military.

Finally, I would like to acknowledge all those who have died in the past year while serving in the SANDF in the service of their country, especially the surgeon-general who passed away not long ago. [Applause.]

Mr J N MASHIMBYE: Chairperson, hon Chief Whip, hon Minister, hon Deputy Minister, hon Thandi Modise and colleagues, this is not one of those occasions when we clash. I remember most occasions when we do not clash. I also wish to join the hon the Minister in saying that it is an appropriate occasion for me to ask Parliament to join me in conveying our condolences to the family of Lt Gen Masuku, fondly known to many of us as ``Dr Hagar’’ in our days during the liberation war. Dr Hagar brought us through very difficult conditions as a leader in uMkhonto weSizwe and, as a medical practitioner, he always gave good leadership and took care of our health. We hope to convey these condolences to his loved ones.

The US Congress is empowered to confer on its citizenry and, in particular, on members of its armed forces who have served their country and people efficiently, gallantly and heroically, a congressional medal of honour. It is my wish and intention to cede this to our highest office of the land empowered to recognise South Africans who have served impeccably and heroically, as did those men and women in uniform who were in Mozambique in time to rescue thousands of people from the floods that devastated our neighbour. [Applause.]

The pain and the anguish caused by those floods will be remembered as accurately symbolised by Sophia Pedro, a pregnant woman who clung to a tree to save her life and that of the child she was carrying. To hold on tight to a tree and to pray for absolution was all she could do. The answer to her prayers for absolution can only be described as tragic joy. It was joyous relief that she gave birth to Rosita Pedro, but tragic that her life would not have seen many hours of existence as the floods were only getting more angry. The SA Air Force, however, arrived on the scene, on time, bringing with them safety, warmth, food and temporary shelter. That crucial flight to a safer and, hopefully, a better future can only be symbolised by the newly born Rosita Pedro.

As members of Parliament we might well agree that the tomorrow that this baby embraces might well be appropriately honoured and recalled with a parliamentary Rosita Pedro medal of honour. [Applause.] These good deeds of our armed forces must be encouraged, consolidated and sustained, but to do so will require of us also to speak about and act on the things that make us uncomfortable when we listen to them.

So let me begin by speaking about them. It is uncomfortable for us to still hear the following statistics. Since 1994 there has been a major increase of blacks in senior ranks, that is at the level of brigadier-general to full general. There has not, however, been a significant increase of blacks in the ranks of major to colonel. This is an area of concern because the ranks of major to colonel represent the middle management and are basically unit commanders who deal with the rank-and-file on a daily basis.

It is also an area of concern that approximately 93,2% of warrant officers are, at this stage, from the former statutory force. Warrant officers are the ones who need to take up the complaints and problems of their subordinates, which means that they have to understand the culture and practices of their subordinates. The same applies to the staff-sergeant to sergeant ranks, which, until the recent past, were 76,1% from the former SA Defence Force. The ranks from private to corporal were almost representative of the population. However, this creates the impression that the SA National Defence Force is a black defence force with white officers. The only way not to speak about these things that make us so uncomfortable is to move faster, with high and accelerated speed, on this noble project of transformation. We must move faster.

Change does not depend on legislation only. It has to be carried out and driven by men and women at all levels of leadership in the Defence Force. If one is a head of an arm of service - be it the Army, the Air Force, the Navy, or Sams - one will always have to ask oneself a question. The question that these leaders must ask themselves is: How does one want to be remembered when one is no longer in that office?

I am certain that no one, no leader, wants to be remembered as having contributed nothing to the project of transformation. We may have good policies, but good policies can only be implemented by the men and women who carry them out. This is a challenge that I pose to the leaders of the Defence Force, especially heads of arms of service.

As Parliament, we will continue to execute our obligations towards the Defence Force. When we had the difficult task of re-equipping obsolete defence equipment, we did so against many odds and against many competing needs, but we did that. We look forward to the delivery of these goods and hope that no one will renege on the offset agreements. We will be watching the process of implementation of these packages very closely.

I indicated that when we had to re-equip the Defence Force, we did so. We have played our role as Parliament. Those who receive this equipment must also play their role, and make sure that this equipment will be utilised by all members of the SANDF, representative of our country, South Africa.

As Parliament, there are many ventures we will be dealing with in the near future. In the current year, we want the following things to be dealt with urgently and meticulously, namely the Defence Act, the Armaments Development and Production Act and the White Paper on SA Defence-related Industries. We will be joining the Ministry in working out and scrutinising an appropriate, fair and just mechanism for rationalisation.

Five years of experience has persuaded us of the need to review the Defence Review itself. We will also be looking forward to receiving a report from the ministerial commission of inquiry and we hope that this body will interact with the parliamentary committees as soon as possible.

I further want to urge that we all do our work as heads of arms of the service, as the general leadership of the Defence Force, as members of Parliament and as the Ministry. It is only when we all do our work that we shall remain heroes and heroines to Rosita Pedro, who embraces a better and safer future.

Mr A J BOTHA: Mr Chairperson, the DP also shares in the condolences to the family of the surgeon-general, and we would appreciate it if that could be conveyed to them. While I am speaking about this, may I inform the House that we wish a speedy recovery to the spokesman on defence for the DP, Brig Gen Schalkwyk, who has had a very serious operation. He is recovering, but it seems to be a hard and long road.

We thank the hon the Minister of Defence, Mr Mosiuoa Lekota, for his presentation this morning. It was very interesting and, as we are wont to expect from him, it was plain speaking in many ways. Minister Lekota is a bit like a comet passing through Parliament now and again. Indeed, for this very reason, we had to bring his Vote forward to this week, necessitating an unscheduled briefing earlier this week at which neither the hon the Minister, the Deputy Ministers nor the Secretary for Defence bothered to put in an appearance.

This diminishes parliamentary capacity for meaningful debate and undermines democratic control of the SANDF, as indeed the Minister himself highlighted during his speech this morning. He used the word flouted'' when he said that Parliament is ignored andflouted’’ in this matter. We believe that it is absolutely necessary that this be avoided, and I believe that the Minister can assist us in this matter.

Our soldiers, sailors, airmen and airwomen and medics may face one of the toughest military missions ever undertaken should the Defence Force be deployed in peace support operations in the DRC. Because of this, there is no more appropriate time than now to ask the hard questions about the state of the Defence Force.

With more time, I should have liked to have touched on the growing concentration of power in the military, diminishing democratic control. However, the most important immediate concern is the ANC Government’s failure to downsize the Defence Force, resulting in a form of armed welfare where too many soldiers lie idle in the barracks, too many aircraft remain grounded in hangars and too many ships stay moored in harbours.

Having said this, we all know that the Defence Force was the decisive factor that saved thousands of lives during the floods that recently ravaged Mozambique, motivating the DP at the time to write to the Deputy Minister, the hon Routledge, suggesting:

… that the Ministry of Defence consider presenting either a special medal or an appropriate medal with a clasp, or any other suitable commendation, to members of the SA National Defence Force deployed in the flood relief operations at the earliest opportunity.

[Interjections.] The key to sustaining this highly motivated and militarily prepared Defence Force, according to the Defence Review, would be a spending ratio of 40%, 30% and 30% on personnel, operating costs and capital renewal respectively. The ratio could only be realised by downsizing the personnel component to between 65 000 and 70 000 full-time members of the Defence Force, a process that should have been completed before the year 2000. But this is precisely what has not happened.

Political considerations initially ballooned the Defence Force to over 100 000 personnel, but it has since declined to about 82 000 through natural attrition, demobilisation and voluntary severance packages. The present spending ratio of 52% on personnel, 32% on operating costs and 26% on capital renewal in the 2000-01 budget results in far too many full-time members of the force not having staffed posts, which means that, to all intents and purposes, they are recipients of welfare.

The effect of this armed welfare has been devastating, especially for the Army. With 80% of the budget for landward defence spent on personnel, the SA Army requires an additional R166 million in operational funds to effectively carry out border control operations and support the crime combating strategy of the SA Police Service. At present, the Army can only protect high-risk border segments and provide partial support to the Police. This could be alleviated by paying more attention to the commando system, which is seriously underfunded. What is true of the Army is more or less true of the other services. The SA National Defence Force is on its chinstraps because of excessive expenditure on surplus personnel. Why has the ANC Government refused to begin the downsizing of the Defence Force? There are all sorts of excuses, but the Department of Defence appears to attribute the failure to downsize to the inability of the Government to approve employer-initiated retrenchment packages for the Public Service, possibly because the Minister for the Public Service and Administration, the hon Fraser-Moleketi, is kept too busy explaining the nondelivery of welfare to the poor to attend to this matter. [Interjections.]

Undoubtedly, there is a great difficulty in simultaneously initiating this programme, achieving the desired representivity in the army and maintaining military preparedness in the process. The hon Comrade Lekota has, however, proved himself equal to challenges. Not only is he one of the few members of Government who understands the dangers of the Zimbabwean situation, maybe because of his military background, but he also repeatedly warns indisciplined members of the armed forces that he will not stand for unworthy behaviour, of which there are examples aplenty. Indeed, he restated his commitment very clearly this morning. There is one thing that concerns me, however. I fully agree with him when he clearly says to us that those members do not belong in the barracks among the other people. I am concerned, though, that he does not speak of apprehending such people and bringing them to book. Let us look at the matter of theft. Mercifully, it appears that we have not actually lost two helicopters, but we have indeed lost thousands upon thousands of weapons, rounds of ammunition and even armour-piercing missiles - with the concomitant dangers of cash-in-transit hijacks on our highways - not to mention vehicles and misuse of the same.

Surely in a closed society like the Defence Force the culprits can be identified and we can expect the guilty parties to be brought to book and fired? Why is this not happening, notwithstanding the stated intentions of the hon the Minister? Is he also constrained by the inflexibility of the labour laws? Why does he not speak out about this? Is he afraid that the hon the Minister of Labour will vilify even him as a rich, white capitalist racist whenever one talks about these laws?

The Minister referred to the controversial issue of Aids and I believe it is absolutely necessary to take a very hard look at this matter. This becomes all the more pressing considering the recent figures which suggest

• and I emphasise that they suggest - that the prevalence may be much higher than originally thought. I believe we should take it seriously. We must take cognisance of the fact that the United Nations does not allow personnel so afflicted to serve in the UN forces.

In the absence of a vigorous policy of downsizing … [Interjections.] Yes, somebody said ``Oh, no!’’ We cannot send people who are HIV/Aids positive on a peacekeeping mission to the DRC, and that is a fact. In the absence of a vigorous policy of downsizing, perhaps the greatest tragedy has been that large numbers of highly skilled and experienced officers have been lost to the SANDF through voluntary severance packages. Considering this leakage of skills and the insufficient budget for training replacements, who is going to command the tanks, fly the aircraft, drive the ships, tend the sickbays and provide logistical support, especially considering the upgrading of equipment in the future Army? If we intend using that equipment effectively, we need highly trained and experienced people and the time to start training them is now.

The hon the Minister has told us what he intends to do and for this, as I have already stated, he has our full support. What he has not told us is why he does not get on with it, and on this we are awaiting his reply. I believe it was only partially answered this morning. And in the interests of us all, may the force be with the Minister. [Applause.]

Mnu V B NDLOVU: Sihlalo, mhlonishwa uLekota nePhini lakho uMaMadlala wakwa- Routledge kanye nosihlalo bonke abakhona namalungu ePhalamende, ngiyanibingelela.   Okokuqala, ngicela ukukhalela kakhulu umndeni wakwaMasuku nezingane ngokushiywa ubaba wekhaya. Sengathi iNkosi ingaba nabo. Ameni. (Translation of Zulu paragraphs follows.)

[Mr V B NDLOVU: Chairperson, I take pleasure in saluting the hon Lekota and his Deputy, Ms Madlala-Routledge, hon members and all chairpersons who are here today.

Firstly, I would like to convey my deepest sympathy to the Masuku family on the death of the head of the family. I trust that God will help them. Amen.]

The task entrusted to the SA National Defence Force is a vital one. They are charged not only with protecting our borders in the event of aggression from a foreign power, but also with supporting the civil authorities in times of crises such as the recent floods or important national events such as giving logistical support to the IEC in election times.

Therefore it is vital that our armed forces are properly equipped to discharge their duties efficiently and effectively. This requires not only that up-to-date military hardware is provided, but also that the resources are available to provide proper training and instruction to ensure that our servicemen and servicewomen have the capacity to fulfil their important role. On the whole, the Defence Force does an excellent job and we should pay tribute to it for that.

Nevertheless, we cannot ignore the fact that the SA National Defence Force continues to face some severe problems. The terrible events at Msinga, where some members of the Defence Force allegedly murdered civilians, is one of the examples of the lack of discipline which must not be allowed to take hold. The Minister and the Chief of the Defence Force must make it absolutely and utterly clear that indiscipline of any sort is unacceptable, that the National Defence Force is a professional force which expects all its members to act in a professional manner, and that there is no place in it for murderers or any other sorts of criminals.

Related to that is the issue which arose from the tragic Madubane case, the killings at Tempe military base in the Free State. These tragic events reinforce the view of the IFP that much greater effort must be made to instruct members of the Defence Force on issues of cultural diversity, so that all servicemen and servicewomen can understand and respect one other traditionally, because Afrikaans is not the only language that should be spoken.

The second issue that has to be addressed by the Defence Force is the matter of retrenchment. The need to reduce the overall force level is well understood. But my party and I urge great caution over the mechanism we use to do this, particularly with the prospect of employer-initiative retrenchments. Compulsory retrenchment of military personnel is a concept that poses many dangers. To throw large numbers of trained military servicemen and servicewomen out onto the streets without alternative employment at this time has the potential of adding significantly to the crime crisis which we already face in South Africa.

If compulsory retrenchment is to be embarked upon, it must only be applied where alternative employment prospects can be found for the affected parties. In particular, the Defence Force could look at redeployment of members to the SAPS in order to ensure that retrenched personnel contribute to the battle against the current crime wave. However, the IFP is convinced that employer-initiative retrenchment is neither desirable nor necessary. The force level can surely be managed down more effectively through natural attrition than through compulsory retrenchment.

Tragically, the incidence of HIV recorded in our armed forces suggests that a significant number of personnel will be retired ill over the coming years. It would, therefore, seem sensible for proper research to be conducted to assess those likely to be affected by HIV/Aids before the retrenchment plan is adopted. The HIV-Aids issue also raises issues relating to the duty that the Defence Force has towards the care and welfare of those serving our country. Much more attention must be given by officers of the SANDF to the task of keeping a firm hand on the discipline, health and welfare of our soldiers, sailors and Air Force personnel. Clearly, much more emphasis must be given to Aids education by the SANDF.

The incidence of HIV/Aids in the SANDF calls into question the role that South Africa will be able to play in the contribution to peacekeeping efforts abroad. The UN requires that all troops serving in the UN section of peacekeeping efforts be certified HIV/Aids negative. This has serious implications for our ability to discharge our responsibility to the international community. In any event, troops deployed by South Africa to peacekeeping missions will require a degree of specialised training, according to international requirements and peacekeeping methods, over and above their usual training.

In view of this fact, my party will propose that significant, specific units be trained and ready to be deployed as forces for peacekeeping missions. Whenever such a force is deployed, it must be with a clear understanding that the international community will meet the financing of our military personnel in full.

I would like to conclude on a positive note by paying tribute to the sterling efforts and immense courage that the SANDF personnel demonstrated in assisting the victims of the recent floods, both within South Africa and in Mozambique, after so many years during which the SA Army was regarded with fear and loathing by our neighbours.

Njalo uma ngikhuluma izinto ezinhle ngiye ngiphelelwe yisikhathi [Uhleko.] [Ihlombe.] [Every time I speak about good things, I am told that my time has expired. [Laughter.] [Applause.]]

Mna K W MORWAMOCHE: Mohlomphegi Modulasetulo, le nna ntumelele ke itswalanye le Kabo ye ya Kgoro ya Tšhireletšo.

Ka moka le kwele ge baDP ba bolela mo. Ka segagešo re re monna ge a palelwa ke go itia kati o re kgoro ke ye nyenyane. [Legofsi.] Pudi le yona ge e šitwa go tswala e re kgwahla di a lla. [Ditshego.]

Le nna untumelele ke ahlaahle Kabo ye ya Kgoro ya Tšhireletšo ka bophara. Mošomo wo mogolo wa kgoro ye ke go šireletša naga ya rena ka bophara le bopêpêtla bja yona. Re ikgantšha ka sesole sa rena, ka ge se šireleditše temokrasi ya rena ka potego. Ka ‘baka la Kgoro ya Tšhireletšo, Mopresitente wa rena ga a buše, o a rena. Ga go batšwantle bao ba kago thopa naga ye ya rena ka dikgoka, gobane sesole sa rena se tiile.

Mellwaneng ya naga ya rena go rena šebešebe ka ‘baka la masole a rena ao a hlahlwago ke Mmušo wa ANC. Le kua Ga-Sekhukhune, bošego ge go re ``kgwahlaa’’, re a tseba gore ga se lenaba, ke sehlotlolo. Seo ga se re gore re re go ja mpunyane, re lebale, re hloke le magagešo-dumelang. Ge re ka robala bja matloga-dibešong, re ka tla ra hwetša temokrasi ye ya rena e wetše diatleng tša botate-nthute-go-epa-digwere-e-sego-maano-a-go-ja. Mogologolo o boletše are o se bone dinaka tša bopudi go bapela bolane ka gare ga tšona.

Kgoro ya tša Selegae e kgona go phethagatša mošomo wa yona mellwaneng ka ‘baka la thekgo ya sesole sa rena. Le nakong ya dikgetho sesole sa rena se šireletša bakgethi kantle ga go tšeya lehlakori. Gape Kgoro ya tša Selegae e kgona go romela batšwantle, bao ba tlilego mo nageng ya rena kantle ga molao, ka thušo ya sesole sa rena.

Kgoro ya tša Mediro le yona nakong ya ge merwalela e tšere ditsela, e thušwa ke sesole sa rena go direla batho matšibogo a nakwana.

Kgoro ya tša Thuto le yona e thušwa ke dinamelwa tša sesole go iša ditlabakelo tša sekolo dikolong tša dinageng tša magae, moo go se nago ditsela.

Balemi kua dithokgweng ba dula ba tseba gore tšhireletšo ya sesole e gona. Nakong ya dikomelelo, sesole sa rena se thuša batho ka go ba išetša meetse. Ge hlaga e swa, go a tsebega gore sesole sa rena se tšeya karolo ye kgolo kudu.

Balemi ba rua leruo dikampeng, ka kholofelo ya gore bobanna-re-maano ba ka se tšeye leruo la bona ka ge sesole se bonala dithokgweng.

Nakong ya ge dingaka le baoki ba ngadile mešomo, dingaka tša sesole di kgona go ema Kgoro ya tša Maphelo nokeng. Le dinakong tša masolo a thibela- malwetši mafelong ao go se nago ditsela, Kgoro ya Tšhireletšo e thuša ka dinamelwa tša sesole go fihlelela ditšhaba tšeo di tsomago melemo. Difofane tša sesole di tsebega ka go phološa setšhaba nakong tša merwalela.

Kgoro ya tša Toka le yona e ahlola basenyi le batšwantle bao ba rekišago diokobatši mo nageng ya rena ka mokgwa wo e sego wa molao, e tseba gore ga go tlhaselo yeo e kago dirwa go tšwa dinageng tšeo.

Sesole sa lewatleng le sona se tšeya karolo go thibeleng bosenyi le go phološa batho ka meetseng. Sesole se ema maphodisa a rena nokeng ge go lwantšhwa bosenyi ka kakaretšo. Le tšona dimpja tšeo di šomišwago ke maphodisa di hwetša hlahlo go tšwa sesoleng.

Babeeletši ba go tšwa dinageng tša kantle ba kgona go bula dikgwebo mo nageng ya rena ka ge ba tseba gore tšhireletšo ya naga ye e tiile go tloga lewatleng go fihla lefaufaung.

Kgoro ya Tšhireletšo e kgona go dira dinamelwa le difofane tša sesole, ya di rekišetša dinaga tša kantle. Kgoro ye e tšeya karolo ye kgolo go oketšeng letseno la naga ye. Ke dira boipiletšo go Tona ya tša Matlotlo gore a oketše Kabo ya Kgoro ye, ka ge e šomela dinaga tše dingwe, gammogo le dikgoro tše dingwe mo nageng ya rena. Go tšeo di hlagetšego Tona ya Tšhireletšo, ge a be a le mo sefaleng, ke rata gore ka sesagešo … [Nako e fedile.] [Legofsi.] (Translation of Sepedi speech follows.)

[Mr K W MORWAMOCHE: Mr Chairperson, allow me the opportunity to associate myself with the Defence Vote.

Hon members have heard everything the DP had to say about this Vote. As the saying goes in my language: A man who cannot dance blames the stage for being too narrow to adequately accommodate his performance. [Interjections.] In the same vein, a goat that is unable to procreate blames its own udder for being too small to feed its offspring. [Applause.]

The primary objective of the SA National Defence Force is to protect and defend our country against foreign aggression. We are proud of our Defence Force because it protects our democracy so faithfully. Our President is able to exercise his good quality leadership in this country because of the support he gets from the Department of Defence. We are confident that our country will not be subjected to foreign aggression that might result in forceful seizure of our Government. The ANC-led Government has ensured that there is peace and stability on our borders. Even in my rural Sekhukhune village, we live in such tranquillity that any nocturnal disturbances are not perceived to be those of adversaries, but rather of friends and comrades. However, this does not suggest that we should not be alert to the dangers of being invaded. If we are too complacent, we may risk our treasured democracy falling into the hands of our enemies. Our ancestors have warned that one’s good neighbour may turn out to be one’s fiercest enemy.

The Department of Home Affairs is able to perform its duty of controlling over our borders through the support of our Army. During election times, voters, irrespective of their political affiliation, are protected by our Defence Force. This department is able to repatriate illegal aliens through the support of our Defence Force.

During the recent devastating floods, our Defence Force, in collaboration with the Department of Public Works, helped the affected communities by erecting some temporary bridges to enable them to cross the roaring waters.

Our military vehicles are used by the Department of Education in transporting equipment to schools in rural areas that are normally characterised by poor road infrastructure.

Our rural farming communities are assured of protection by our Army. During droughts, our Defence Force normally helps by transporting fresh drinking water to the farmers. When veld fires occur, it is our Defence Force that helps the affected communities by fighting the flames, eventually bringing the fires under control.

Cattle farmers in pastoral camps are also assured of protection against stock thieves, because of the visible policing by our Army.

During strikes by hospital staff, doctors from our Defence Force are sent out to perform duties on behalf of the Department of Health. During vaccination campaigns, our military vehicles are able to access some normally inaccessible areas, particularly in the countryside. Helicopters from our Defence Force rescued many lives during the recent floods.

The Department of Justice is able to sentence criminals and to order the repatriation of druglords who smuggle dangerous drugs into our country, knowing full well that there will be no invasion of our country.

The Navy helps in combatting crime and rescuing those who drown at sea. Thus, the Defence Force plays a supportive role in combatting crime. Police dogs are trained by the Defence Force.

Foreign investors are able to proceed with their investments in this country because of the protection afforded them by our Defence Force, which is very strong at sea and in the air.

Our Department of Defence has the ability to manufacture military vehicles and planes and sell them abroad. Therefore, since the department is able to generate its own income and assist other Government departments, I would like to appeal to the Minister of Finance to increase its budget so as to enable it to continue performing those duties.

With regard to the bickering of some individuals from the opposition parties while the Minister was at the podium, I wish to say that in our culture … [Time expired.] [Applause.]]

Mnr H A SMIT: Mnr die Voorsitter, ek maak graag gebruik van hierdie geleentheid om agb minister Lekota te bedank vir sy wydlopende, insiggewende inleidende toespraak, en ek wil hom ook hartlik bedank dat hy dit vooraf beskikbaar gestel het. Ons het groot waardering daarvoor. Ek wil ook dadelik sê ek het ook waardering vir die wyse waarop die toeligting geskied het. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraph follows.)

[Mr H A SMIT: Mr Chairperson, I wish to take this opportunity to thank the hon Minister Lekota for his wide-ranging, informative introductory speech, and I also want to thank him sincerely for making it available beforehand. We greatly appreciate that. Furthermore, I would like to add immediately that I am also appreciative of the way in which the explanation was dealt with.]

I would also like to thank the hon the Minister of Defence for his open- door approach to management, and also towards opposition parties. I really appreciate that, because the SA National Defence Force is a proud and important arm of our public sector. If anyone is unrightfully planning to harm that arm, he or she can expect serious resistance from my party, the New NP. I regard the SA National Defence Force as an institution that should be above petty party politics, and today I want to salute our armed forces for their involvement during the current financial year in various rescue operations within our borders and also in neighbouring countries. I will not dwell on detail, but I only want to quote the heading of a newspaper clipping, ``SA aircraft race rising waters’’, referring to the Mozambican rescue operations. The Minister also referred at length to these operations.

Our Defence budget is underfunded. This is a general statement, but I am specifically referring to our Army. We must keep this statement in mind. I think it is of the utmost importance to try and achieve the ideal rightsizing of 70 000 men and women, as agreed upon in the Defence Review. My hon colleague from the DP also referred to this aspect. At the moment we stand at approximately 82 000, which is already a downsizing from Mr Modise’s approximately 112 000.

The New NP is sympathetic towards those people who are to be retrenched, but if we want to take up our responsibilities, we must carefully manage this process. This means that the people who are to be retrenched must be carefully trained to take their rightful place in society again. I am also of the opinion that our troops are being used for jobs outside their job description, for example, to guard VIPs, to guard buildings and even to guard Parliament. I think it is outside their job description, and I can name numerous other cases.

I also feel that because of other duties attached, such as border protection and support rendered to the SA Police Service, Government must supplement the Defence budget. We must get a satisfactory ruling regarding certain expenses such as our involvement during the Mozambican general elections. I am not referring to the floods, I am referring to the recent general elections in Mozambique, which cost the SA Defence Force an amount in the vicinity of R7,4 million.

Why should our Defence Force pay this bill? If Foreign Affairs made the request, then they must pay the bill. I must add that I did receive the hon the Minister’s written reply yesterday, but from speaking to the officials from the hon the Minister’s office, I am still not convinced that the SA Defence Force will not have to pick up this bill. In the process we are losing the capability of this proud force.

Regarding losses because of theft, equipment worth R7,04 million was lost in the period until 1 July 1999 according to a lengthy written reply from the hon the Minister. This is unacceptable. Please do not tell me that it is only a small percentage of the total budget. If one spade is stolen, it is already one too many, and I am not even referring to the pair of Ray-Ban glasses that were stolen at Langebaan or the 245 firearms that were stolen in the period mentioned in the Minister’s reply.

We will fulfil our duty as an opposition party. We will criticise if necessary, but he will never have to look for us when it comes to loyalty to this proud force. Ek bedank graag die voorsitter van die gesamentlike komitee, mnr Mashimbye, vir die afgelope jaar se noue samewerking, asook die voorsitter van die portefeuljekomitee, die agb me Modise. Ek dink nie ‘n mens sal in enige faset van die parlementêre opset beter samewerking vind nie. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraph follows.)

[I would like to thank the chairperson of the joint committee, Mr Mashimbye, for the past year’s close co-operation, as well as the chairperson of the portfolio committee, the hon Ms Modise. I do not think that one will find better co-operation in any facet of the parliamentary set-up.]

Keeping all of this in mind, the New NP will vote for the adoption of the Defence budget. [Applause.]

Mrs N R SHOPE: Mr Chairman and hon members, the ANC supports this budget.

First of all I would like to congratulate the SANDF on the good work done with regard to integration. That is the area on which I will concentrate. The main reason for my appreciation is the fact that at the end of the day we managed, despite many formations coming from different areas of thought and ideology and a few hiccups here and there, to come out with one SA National Defence Force.

The defence committees did very well in fulfilling their oversight function at the beginning of the first democratic Parliament. In our interaction with various stakeholders and the Ministry, we came out with good policy documents such as the Defence Review and the White Paper on Defence. These documents have guided us along the way in establishing and strengthening the SA National Defence Force.

The oversight duty of the committees still exists and the scope of work broadens as we look at monitoring the implementation of the policy by the SANDF.

Ntirho wa tikomiti ta Vusirheleri ti angarhela na ku seketela na ku tsundzuxa vanhu hinkwavo lava tirhaku ntirho wihi kumbe wihi wa tiko. Loko swilo swi onhaka hi ta vula, loko swi saseka kona hi ta vula, hikwalaho ke, mina ndzi nga xirho xa ANC, ndzi nga rhumiwa hi yona ANC kuva xirho xa yona Palamende leyi ya ku hlonipheka, ndzi na ku rhandza ku xiyaxiya swilo swa vavasati na timhaka ta vona endleleni ya hina yo aka na ku hundzuluxa tiko. Ku na principle'' ya ku ntshunxiwa ka vamananaemancipation of women’’, lowu nga nawu lowu sasekisaka ANC. Lowu nga endla leswaku vaxisati vo kota ku fana na mina, na van’wanyana hi kokeka ku ta nghena hi va swirho swo tiya swa ANC. (Translation of Tsonga paragraph follows.)

[The functions of the Defence committees include protecting and advising all employees working in various spheres throughout the country. If things go wrong we are going to react, and when things go right, we are also going to comment, therefore I, as a member of the ANC and also having been sent by the ANC to be a member of this honourable Parliament, am interested in the careful consideration of matters and affairs pertaining to women in our path to nation-building and the transformation of our country. There is a principle of the emancipation of women, and this principle is advocated by the ANC. It enabled women like me and others to be attracted to become staunch members of the ANC.]

It is for this reason that I have a few words that will indicate that in the process of integration and the building of the SANDF, this principle does get lost sometimes. On 8 March 1998 a gender conference of the SANDF was held. One of the resolutions of that conference was that we needed to put in place a structure that would sensitise all structures of the SANDF, so that gender issues are taken seriously and are at the centre of all decisions and activities within the SANDF.

On 30 March 2000 a gender workshop of the SANDF was held. It was clear from the deliberations at the workshop that the location of the gender sensitising machinery was not in order. I, therefore, would like to indicate that officers who deal with equal opportunity should be placed so that they account to the Chief of the SANDF and the Secretary for Defence. In this way, women’s problems will find a shorter route to the ears of decision-makers. The longer the route, the longer the problem lingers.

We are happy to have Gen Sedibe in charge of equal opportunity programmes. At the same time, it should be remembered that a number of us women are ex- members of MK and have also viewed Sedibe as our mentor. I would like to believe that even now, as the officer in charge of the equal opportunities programme, young women soldiers regard her and others as mentors, more so because she is a general by rank. My problem in this matter stems from the fact that she is not reporting to a higher authority, but to a lower rank, which means to me that women’s issues take a longer route to decision- making. [Applause.] I would like to suggest that, as part of the worksheet of every officer, gender should be included, so that this item is integrated and treated as a line function.

There is the problem of the medical scheme, which I learnt is not woman- friendly. I would like to urge all those who are in decision-making positions to take into serious consideration the provisions of the said medical aid and correct them. I am concerned that this budget has no prominent allocation for women’s empowerment programmes. One of the duties of the SANDF, like all institutions and businesses of this land, is that it has a fundamental duty to create child-care facilities and to make conscious efforts to empower women. Because of problems such as this, we would appeal to the department always to remember to involve the defence committee in the early stages of the budgeting process, so that, at the end of the day, we can go out to the South African public and report with full knowledge and understanding, thus being confident of our report.

It will have to be taken into account that the empowerment programme has not been followed rigorously and no woman should be made to leave the SANDF without having been to the various courses, because there was no support system put in place for them to develop to their full potential and hopefully be an asset to South Africa. Please bear in mind that women soldiers are just as patriotic as anyone in the force, or anyone in the other sectors. However, certain things should be put in place as a means of support. For the reason that I mentioned when I started with my speech, the work …

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! Hon member, your speaking time has expired.

Mrs N R SHOPE: I support this budget. [Applause.]

Mr M E MABETA: Madam Speaker, hon Minister and colleagues, it is a pleasure for us to participate in this debate. I would like to start by congratulating the Minister on the good work he has done in continuing with the task of reorganising and restructuring our Defence Force under very difficult conditions.

The UDM supports this budget and concurs with the view of the Department of Defence that, generally, the defence programme is underfunded, even though the strategic packages have partially helped or are likely to partially remedy the situation. The Army has suffered most as a result of this underfunding, because of the extent of voluntary packages in the nineties and the continuing unbudgeted commitments in other areas, the effects of which are to undermine the internal Defence budget planning processes.

The White Paper on Defence talks about a defence structure that is based on a core force. The review paper talks about set numbers. The Minister or his department needs to clarify for us whether we are talking about 50 000, 65 000 or 70 000. However, my party is more concerned about the effect that the budget has on the general staffing process in defence because, despite the fact that we now have this sophisticated equipment which is there to stay, it is difficult to imagine how in the absence of a programme for retraining and reskilling - a common practice in all other countries - of the existing members of the Defence Force, we are going to be able to man these machines.

We know that in the three-year budget cycle there is no planned increase in funding for the Army and personnel. The first question is: How do we effect the vision of a core force from a personnel and an operational point of view? Do we have the professional people or soldiers to man the ships, submarines, Army corvettes and helicopters for rescue missions? The important consideration in this matter is, how are we to utilise the most modern equipment without a trained manpower?

It is not clear in the current plan how we are going to move from the current situation in the Army to the core force. The effect of that seems to be that we are going to maintain the high levels of people in the Army. Rather than having a narrow and lean force, we are going to end up with a larger core force, a larger Army and a highly demoralised Defence Force. This is not likely to help the issues of racism, crime and theft, which so painfully and openly characterise the type of morale in our armed forces.

The Defence Review requires a small core force and a large part-time force, but in reality we are likely to have a large core force and a small part- time force. We fully appreciate the painful and unexplained pressure on the Minister, because no money is made available for development and operational expenditure despite the fact that there are daily requests from Foreign Affairs and the Police Service to make the soldiers available for the operations that the police should have taken care of and budgeted for. In our view as the UDM - and this is not party-bashing - the Minister needs an integrated system involving different clusters, namely the Police Service and the Ministries of Defence, of Finance and of Intelligence, so that one does not have a day-to-day and piecemeal arrangement in the deployment of our armed forces in these areas.

I must say at this point in my speech that I am quite disappointed that the Minister chose to make the remarks he made about Gen Holomisa’s disclosures. [Interjections.] I am heartened, however, that the Minister of Foreign Affairs has pledged that she will call a debate. I hope that the Minister will figure out whether she will speak in the debate, or he will speak in the debate, or whether it will be the Minister for Intelligence. We welcome the debate, but I regret to say that the Minister of Defence’s comments are not proper at this point. [Interjections.]

An HON MEMBER: Uqalile ke! [There you go again!]

Mr M E MABETA: Ndiqalile nangoku! [Of course, yes!]

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order!   Mr M E MABETA: We would also like the Minister to pay attention, through the Secretariat for Defence, to the issue of racism in the armed forces. I am particularly upset by the fact that there is no linguistic or language training programme in the current civic education programme. We need to sensitise everybody in Defence that all South African languages have to be spoken by everybody.

I would like to personally make the point that the current problems in the rationalisation and transformation of the armed forces are likely to create a situation in which we have within the Defence Force and our society a large portion of people who are discontented. Their families have not received their packages or pensions; all that sort of thing. On his missions outside the Minister is likely to find these people operating as mercenaries. No one would welcome this.

I would like to ask the Minister of Defence to instruct the Secretary for Defence, if the Chief of Defence agrees to look into this. I do not know who, in terms of the current restructuring, should give these instructions. I do not believe that they have sorted out this issue. It is a big issue in our committee and I would like the Minister to sort it out. [Time expired.]

Mr L V J NGCULU: Chairperson, Minister and Deputy Minister of Defence, as we debate the Defence budget today, we need to look back on the century we have traversed. For us as South Africans it was a century of pain and struggle, but also a century which held the hope that victory was certain.

South Africa was ruled by a government which had made racism its official policy. In order to sustain this racist bigotry, apartheid South Africa used its security organs to repress and destabilise not only South Africa, but the entire region. It was thus regarded as the Frankenstein of our continent, whose murderous and destabilisation campaign created havoc and mayhem.

To date Southern Africa is still suffering from such ill-conceived policies. To highlight my point, we remember, firstly, the raid on Maseru in Lesotho on 9 December 1982 in which about 42 people were killed. The PFP spokesman on defence, Philip Myburgh, justified this dastardly attack by saying that the army had ``no choice but to carry out a pre-emptive strike.’’ The Rand Daily Mail went further to say, referring to violence:

Those who advocate it must expect, indeed accept, that arms will be taken up against them. The SA Defence Force has always made it clear that it will not hesitate to cross borders to attack and destroy ANC bases.

Secondly, on 14 June 1985 the SADF invaded Botswana and killed 13 people in cold blood. Commenting on this cowardly act, Constand Viljoen, then Chief of the SADF, said it was ``a rather difficult and unpleasant operation. We did not like it, but we had to do it.’’ [Interjections.]

Such was the callousness which characterised apartheid South Africa, a country that never respected the sovereignty and dignity of its neighbouring countries! The first democratic election in 1994 proclaimed that our national Defence Force would never again be used to repress democracy and the aspirations of the people of Africa for freedom. South Africa proclaimed itself as a country committed to the renewal of Africa. When he was addressing this House, our esteemed President, Comrade Thabo Mbeki, said

In the course of a mere decade, we ended the entrenched and pernicious system of apartheid white minority rule. We have put in place a constitutionally governed and stable democratic system …

Having ended our dark days as a pariah country, we can rightly say that, today, the nations of our common universe are confident that out of South Africa will emerge a thing of value that will contribute to the building of a more humane world.

I want to say, therefore, that our debate on the budget should be informed by this and by the clarion call of the continent to have South Africa participate in the development and nurturing of peace in Africa.

There are those who would like to see the Defence budget reduced to a point at which the very capacity of the SANDF to play its rightful role is undermined. They do so not out of concern for the people of South Africa, but in order to create an opportunity to launch reckless attacks on our Government and therefore the ANC. Before 1994 the Defence budget often unaccountably escalated, but those hon members were as silent in this House as the statues standing outside this building.

One of the critical fundamental changes brought about by the ANC-led Government was to entrench constitutional parameters for the SANDF and see military relations underpinned by the following principles: firstly, the principle of supremacy; secondly, that of accountability; and, thirdly, that of transparency. Our approach to the Defence budget, in particular, is informed by these principles. In 1988 defence spending constituted 4,3% of GDP. This shrank in 1996 to 2% and last year to 1,5% of GDP. As the Minister of Finance himself acknowledged:

What we did from 1996 was to apply an unbelievably heavy squeeze on defence.

Thus the trend has been a steep decline in defence spending over the past few years. However, we need to take into account that the country needs a defence capability that will meet demands and expectations from our region and continent.

We live in an environment of huge instability on our continent. Therefore we cannot allow our defence capability to run itself into the ground, otherwise we will find that, in the years ahead, the massive backlog created will cause big problems. The debate should not be around guns or butter, but rather on the dialectical relationship between the need to provide an efficient and sustainable defence capability and the need to bring about a better life for all.

Our national Defence Force should prepare itself to assist in both local and regional disaster relief and humanitarian programmes. It seems these tasks should be factored into our budgeting and planning as they are concrete tasks that could further demonstrate our political commitment to the African renaissance.

In this vein, the sterling role played by the SANDF in disaster relief in the northern provinces and Mozambique stands out as an heroic feat of patriotism and commitment. In Mozambique, in particular, the SANDF acted with high morale and efficiency in rescuing flood victims. It elevated the standard and respect of South Africa as a country to be relied upon, and, of course, this reclaiming of South Africa as a country to be relied on and trusted came about because of the ANC’s steadfast commitment to democracy and the wellbeing of all the people. We are no longer regarded as the Frankenstein of our continent, but rather as a beacon of hope.

It is in this regard, as enshrined in the Freedom Charter, that there shall be peace and friendship, that our country shall continue to be committed to peace on our continent. Much has been done to prepare for our role in entrenching peace in Africa. There were joint operations in September 1998 with Tanzania and Mozambique. South Africa has rendered full co-operation with the SADC, and with the ISDSC in various fields, such as the support given to Tanzania to help with the recovery of casualties from the sunken ferry in Lake Victoria, assistance given to Lesotho during heavy rains, and the sterling support given to Mozambique during the recent floods. Operation Blue Crane, a peacekeeping exercise in April 1999 in which contingents from most of the SADC countries participated, was rated as a major success in joint operations.

There was also Operation Boleas, which was the operation to intervene in stabilising Lesotho. It was a milestone for democratic South Africa. It was the first time that democratic South Africa deployed troops on foreign soil, invited by that country and in full co-operation with SADC, in order to bring peace and defend a democratic government. Even though the main elements of the combined task force have now been withdrawn from Lesotho and have returned to their respective countries, a small training team comprising both the SA National Defence Force and the Botswana Defence Force remains in Lesotho to assist with the restructuring and training of the Lesotho Defence Force. The President and our Minister have also indicated that our Defence Force is readying itself to participate in peace operations in the DRC under the auspices of the UN.

This year’s budget allocation will give an added impetus. We are happy that this budget is a solid contribution to the achievement of peace and prosperity in Africa and to ensuring that the 21st century evolves as an African century. In this way Africa will work her way towards the resumption of her rightful place among the continents of the globe. Serving as a catalyst to this process is a Government under the illustrious leadership of Thabo Mbeki. To our Minister of Defence, Comrade Mosiuoa Lekota, we say: The budget is ours. [Applause.] Mrs R M SOUTHGATE: Mr Chairperson, hon Minister, the ACDP wishes to congratulate the SANDF on its recent rescue operations. We appeal to the Ministry, however, to enhance infrastructure, management and finances to ensure that the Defence Force is always ready to respond efficiently when natural disasters occur. Let the department improve on whatever weaknesses it noted in its operations in Mozambique. Let us not lose momentum.

The Ministry must also be central in setting up the SADC relief centre to ease the burden on the Defence Force in future when disasters strike. The Minister recently, in a written a reply to hon Madasa, stated that finances constrained further development in this matter.

The ACDP urges the Ministry to play a leading role and to seek foreign donors to help SADC to set up the necessary structures and to purchase its equipment. The ACDP requests the Minister to follow up on the list of individuals and associations compiled by the department which have shown a keen interest in helping the Defence Force in rescue operations.

We are of the view that long-term private associations exclusively and/or in partnership with the Defence Force and SADC would be the proper vehicle to help if natural disasters occur. The ACDP notes with great concern the admission by the Minister of Defence on Wednesday, when he was questioned by the hon member Modise, the chairperson of the Portfolio Committee on Defence, that the department has been restructured without consulting the portfolio committee. We view this decision not only as undermining the oversight role of Parliament, but as repugnant to the Constitution.

The offices of the Chief of the Defence Force and the Secretary for Defence are separate. This was done to ensure accountability and to strengthen the idea of military-civilian control. The ACDP calls on the Minister to halt the implementation of this decision until the portfolio committee has been properly consulted. [Time expired.]

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF DEFENCE: Chairperson, Minister of Defence and members, on 2 June 1999 the people of South Africa renewed the mandate to the ANC-led Government to deliver a better life for all. The Ministry and Department of Defence take that mandate seriously and are accelerating the process of change. However, we realise that transforming the Defence Force is not an easy task. It forms one of the biggest challenges facing the democratic Government. Some of the problems go back to the agreements reached at the negotiations. Despite these problems, however, transformation in the SA National Defence Force has started in earnest. All the policies, strategies and targets are in place. Also in place are guidelines for an efficient Defence Force that is representative and professional. We are encouraged by the contribution this morning of the members who have already spoken, and we will take into account all their proposals.

We are working towards identifying and removing all obstacles in the path of transformation and empowerment of our members. We are looking at the following critical issue, namely ensuring that the staffing boards are representative, credible, fair, equitable and transparent. The results of the staffing process must, therefore, reflect Government policy on racial and gender representivity, and, finally, there must be timely and proper communication to all stakeholders.

What are some of the challenges as already observed by some of the speakers before me? The majority of the privates and corporals in the SANDF are black. The middle layer remains predominantly white and male. To correct this we have identified the need to recruit more blacks and women into the Navy and the Air Force and to invest in targeted training of black students and soldiers to enter and advance in these highly technical arms of service.

This investment will also focus on providing quality leadership. Soldiers recognise and respect good leadership. A good commander cares for and listens to the troops and will not send them where he or she would not go. We now know that Gen Geldenhuys, former chief of the SADF, gained the respect of his troops by leading them from the front. Let me acknowledge at this point the contribution that he is making to the ministerial committee chaired by Dr Setai, and let me acknowledge the work that they are doing. We look forward to their report and recommendations.

We are concerned about the resistance to change from some sections of the Defence Force. The theft of SANDF property is receiving our immediate and thorough attention. Similarly, we are getting to the bottom of other criminal activities, as the Minister has stated, such as soldiers assisting and participating in mercenary activity. We will soon be making an announcement on this issue.

As part of the process of accelerating change, we will be strengthening the oversight role of the secretariat and the Ministry and we will be asking experts to assist us in this respect. We are monitoring the departmental plans regarding transformation and we will be asking for regular reports on the implementation of Government policies.

However, transformation goes beyond numbers. We want to ensure that democratic values are entrenched in every aspect of our work. The civic education programme will become a core part of all training and will include transforming the culture of the SANDF so that it reflects the values of justice, peace, gender equality, democracy and development, as well as the diverse spectrum of its membership.

Monitoring the Defence budget is an important tool of civilian oversight. Transparency in Defence spending will make it possible to monitor how much is spent and on what. The Minister of Defence has given me the responsibility of monitoring the Defence budget. The new process of managing departmental finances will make the task of monitoring on a monthly and biannual basis easier.

I will be working very closely with the chief of finance in the Defence Secretariat on all aspects of the budget process. I will also co-operate with members of Parliament who will play a crucial role, and experts in civil society will assist me in monitoring Defence spending. This will allow for tighter budget control and reprioritisation.

The Department of Defence is discussing ways of sharing resources and spare capabilities with other Government departments to assist in reconstruction and service delivery. We are contributing to the fight against tropical diseases and the HIV/Aids pandemic. The former SA Defence Force was perceived as a threat to its own people and to its neighbours. We have just come from a history of maximising regional destabilisation. It therefore becomes imperative that we optimise our efforts at promoting regional security.

Our power as a major player in the region is not necessarily seen by all as a catalyst to further regional co-operation. On the other hand, it is widely acknowledged that we are the armed forces of a democracy, one that leads in pursuit of democratic values. This is an advantage as we seek to promote our common interest in the region. Instead of being trapped by a paradigm that mechanistically interprets the military in the sense of an armed force, our democratic nature allows us to pursue regional co- operation without having to be seen as the policeman of Southern Africa.

We need to maximise our opportunities without creating fears amongst our partners. We have, also, to interpret the African renaissance as meaning that we should share resources and develop African competencies collectively so that we may take our rightful place on the world stage. Our initiatives must be joint and multilateral in that we share commitment and accountability. If we are required, for example, to add to the duties of our Navy the role of patrolling our common fishing grounds, whilst acquiring deep-sea experience, we expect that our partner should cover some of the operational costs. It is this visible contribution that is essential for authentic partnership in the region.

We will be promoting, through SADC forums, the sharing of training opportunities. Once we agree that we have to expose some of our personnel to the large military academies of the world, there is absolutely no reason why we cannot promote joint operability by training SADC forces together in African countries. This promotes regional stability and our common security. We have many years of co-operation in the health sphere that will promote regional stability and security. We now need to make greater strides towards combating the HIV/Aids pandemic, malaria, tuberculosis and malnutrition.

Security is not a matter of guns only, but it is also about combating all threats to our national sovereignty and security, be they in the form of belligerent forces, belligerent bugs or poverty. We will be intensifying our collaborative efforts with the health agencies in the region to fight these enemies together.

An analysis of the causes of conflicts in Africa reveals that issues of access and control of resources that can be used for development appear to be the underlying cause of most conflicts. This assumption is clearly illustrated by the nature of the conflicts in Angola, the DRC and the Great Lakes region. The relevance of development not only relates to the causes of war, but also to its severe impact on the socioeconomic development of a nation and its human and physical development resources. It is for this reason that we have concerned ourselves not only with issues of physical security, but the broader concept of human security.

We believe that in order to achieve a sustainable peace in the region, issues of economic development must be integrated into all our interventions. This assumption provides an alternative approach to peacekeeping on the African continent. Such an intervention would utilise development interventions to solve what is fundamentally a development crisis. When one considers the fact that the needs of people whose livelihoods have been devastated by floods or war are often barely distinguishable from the needs of those living in absolute poverty and facing permanent emergency, it gives a new impetus to the implementation of developmental peacekeeping initiatives.

Given the interrelated developmental causes and consequences of complex emergencies, peacekeeping interventions cannot be fully effective unless they are related to a comprehensive strategy for peace and security, human rights and social and economic development. That is why events in Zimbabwe give us concern for security in the region. Developmental principles require working with and through local institutions, consulting with local people about their perceptions and needs and where possible, linking rehabilitation work with existing and related problems and projects.

Albert Einstein argued that peace could not be kept through force. Peacekeepers of the future should, therefore, not just be military personnel keeping or enforcing peace, but be active facilitators in laying the foundation for sustainable peace. Peace attained in this way is not just a silence of guns after a war. It provides stability, reduces dependency, lessens vulnerability and provides hope and lasting peace to populations devastated by war by addressing the root causes of conflict.

We should implement short-term reconstruction measures which are balanced by concerns for long-term development of civil society. It is proposed that all future peacekeeping interventions conducted by the SA National Defence Force or in which the SANDF participates, should ascribe to the principle of participatory, empowering and sustainable development. This would require a refocus and retraining of our soldiers to meet the demands of developmental peacekeeping. For such an intervention to succeed, we need to develop and enhance our systems to enable our members to facilitate sustainable solutions in the various areas of operation.

We have proposed to train and make available our peacekeeping formation to facilitate some of the reconstruction processes required in the Northern Province, Mpumalanga and the Eastern Cape. This is a unique opportunity to empower and equip our communities and peacekeepers with skills and opportunities that will contribute to making the African renaissance a sustainable African reality.

The gender dimension of peace-building tends to be overlooked. Our commitment to gender equality, human rights and peace-building mean that this should be corrected. We are convening three events this year as the Department of Defence, focusing on women and peace. These activities, which will bring together women in defence with women in civil society, will assist us to examine peace through a gender lens. They will help us to focus on the role of women in peacekeeping and peace-building. Women’s voices and perspectives in peace negotiations and peace-building have been absent. It is essential that they be heard. To build a world where gender equality and human rights are respected, deep-rooted change is necessary. The specific way in which women’s security is undermined and their human rights violated during a state of war must be addressed. We have planned these activities so that women can define what security and peace mean to them, and what role they will play in peacekeeping and peace- building.

Finally, I want to address the issue of the proliferation of small arms. In July 1999, the OAU adopted a declaration to combat the illicit proliferation, circulation and trafficking of small arms and light weapons. We welcome this important step, and that taken by the EU, to regulate the arms trade and limit arms flows to regions plagued by conflicts. We also acknowledge the role played by civil society in their efforts to combat the proliferation of guns in our society. The collection and destruction of illegal guns in KwaMashu will involve youth representatives from all political parties coming from Lindelani, Richmond, the Northern Central local council, schools and the local community policing forum.

We realise that many conflicts in our region are fuelled by the proliferation of small weapons. Most wars in our continent are fought not with canons and mortars. Later this year the SANDF will conduct a public destruction of illegal small arms and all our surplus stock. This will be a public activity and will be used to raise awareness about the danger of illegally acquired and surplus small arms. We are going to build a monument to peace, using the residue of the destroyed weapons in memory of all those that have died in wars in Africa. This monument will serve as a reminder of our commitment to peace and the abolition of war in Africa.

Let me finish by thanking my Minister, Terror Lekota, whose friendship and comradeship go back many years. We both share a past in the trenches of the Mass Democratic Movement. I also thank our advisers, Kevin Qhobosheane and Sue Rapkin, the parliamentary committees and my staff. Let me say also how happy I am to be part of Defence in a democracy. The generals sitting here have all welcomed me into their fold. Finally, I want to thank my husband, Jeremy Routledge, my mother-in-law sitting in the gallery, and my family, who continue to support me. [Time expired.] [Applause.] Mr E P MOGALE: Mohlomphegi Modulasetulo le Ngwako wo hlomphegago, [Mr Chairperson, hon members,] although it was implied in many speeches today, civil-military relations is not a common concept. This concept is extremely important to the development of our Army, and the influence which this development will have on the armies of the subcontinent and entire continent.

Throughout history, the army has been the most abused component of the state. Its use has shaped the world as we know it today. The colonialists used military forces to enslave, plunder and arrest the development of peoples and nations. The fascists, juntas and other military zealots unleashed armies on peoples and nations, causing death and destruction, the consequences of which are the underdevelopment, poverty, divisions, debt and constant wars which are still part of our real world today.

Here at home, the apartheid machinery used the army and caused much destruction. Thousands died in Southern Africa as a result of military aggression. The end of apartheid and the emergence of a new democratic state has had profound political and strategic consequences. As shown above, military aggression and the destructive deployment of armed forces have, in many cases, served a few cliques and dictators who had a free hand in the armies. There was no civil control over the armies, and no checks and balances.

South Africa is one of the strongest countries on the continent. The massive task of the reconstruction of our country and the continent will need our involvement, and this sometimes has to be balanced by military intervention. The concept of civil-military relations is of special importance to us. There must be a balance between our responsibility to intervene and noninterference, which aims at giving peaceful solutions a chance. To a great extent, the continent will turn to learn from us, especially on the usage of the military forces. That is why the concept of civil-military relations becomes vital to our new democracy.

Our Constitution has provisions that create a good foundation and an environment for the development of civil-military relations. A few of them can be cited here. Firstly, the President shall be the Commander-in-Chief of the SANDF and he may employ the SANDF in accordance with their functions and subject to accountability. Parliament can resolve to terminate such employment. The authority and power of Parliament are important in pursuing the concept of civil military relations.

Civil-military relations deal with the hierarchy between the executive, Parliament and the armed forces. To ensure improved democratic civil- military relations, Parliament has a range of significant powers regarding military affairs, namely legislative powers, budget approval, and review of a presidential decision to deploy the SANDF in critical functions. The Joint Standing Committee on Defence has powers to investigate and recommend functions relating to military supervision as may be prescribed by the law. Close relations with the Department of Defence is crucial.

During the apartheid era the department was totally militarised. The Defence headquarters performed almost every function. In entrenching civil- military relations, the Defence Amendment Act of 1995 provides for the reconstruction of the Department of Defence, which comprises the SANDF and a civilian Defence Secretariat. The Chief of the SANDF and Secretary for Defence serve on the statutory Council on Defence.

Civil professionalism is vital in civil-military relations. We can cite some of the features of that professionalism. These are the acceptance by military personnel of the principle of civil supremacy over the armed forces and adherence to that principle, and the maintenance of technical, managerial, organisational skills and resources which enable the armed forces to perform their primary and secondary functions efficiently and effectively. Other principles include the training and education of the military forces. Strict adherence to the Constitution, national legislation, international law and treaties are some of the things that the military must be aware of.

A conscious involvement of the SANDF in community work will also improve their civil-military relations. We will be facing a big task of educating our people about our role on the continent, on the subcontinent and in various international streams. We must also contribute to the endeavour of many people who are daily increasing civilian control of the Army. This is a peace mission.

Ge re bolela gore se sengwe le se sengwe seo se lego sesoleng se swanetše gore se tsebje ke batho, goba batho ba be le taolo godimo ga sesole, ga re re gore re nape re ponoke. [Nako e fedile.] [Legofsi.] [When we say that everything in the Army should be transparent to the public, and that our Defence Force should be placed under civilian control, we do not necessarily mean that we should be stripped naked. [Time expired.] [Applause.]

Mr M A MNCWANGO: Mr Chairman, over the past three to four years we have witnessed a substantial reduction in the Defence budget. Such a reduction was understandable owing to our common desire to redirect funds towards important social areas such as health, education and welfare. Nevertheless, we must remain mindful of the need to maintain a balance between the requirements of development and other important social areas of spending, and the need to provide adequate resources to allow the Defence Force to fulfil its constitutional mandate.

We therefore welcome the Government’s decision to implement a R30 billion programme of modernising our forces and equipping them to carry out their duties effectively. The modernisation programme should also bring spinoffs to our economy through the investment agreements which were concluded with those suppliers who have won contracts under the programme. We are hopeful that these agreements will have a beneficial impact upon unemployment and economic activity in general.

Now that South Africa has returned to international respectability, after the dark apartheid years, the Defence Force has a new and important role to play in peacekeeping, and in providing assistance in international civil disasters. We welcome the recognition of the role that the Defence Force can now play in peace-keeping duties, particularly in the Democratic Republic of Congo. However, there remains an outstanding issue of who will pay for these operations. In terms of the Democratic Republic of Congo, we are hopeful that the United Nations will assume its full budgetary responsibility for these activities, but we must ensure that before any deployment takes place, there is absolute clarity over financial liability in this respect.

One learns with great disappointment that the vital role carried out by our armed forces in Lesotho, for instance, under the auspices of SADC has still not been paid for. The costs to the South African public was approximately R9 million, and we now hear that SADC does not have the money to meet its obligations. These problems over financial liability must be thoroughly addressed, otherwise the South African public will become increasingly unwilling to allow international deployment of its Defence Force in support of our neighbours, however important such deployments may be to the stability of Southern Africa.

The recent deployment of our armed forces in Mozambique and within South Africa, in response to the civil disaster caused by the floods, showed the world the commitment and effectiveness of our forces. We unreservedly commend all the Defence Force personnel involved in this magnificent effort to save the lives of our own citizens and the citizens of our neighbour. Again, however, the issue of the costs involved is unavoidable, and here the international community must look at how it can assist the South African fiscus with the cost of such operations, for if the world is to look to South Africa in expectation of humanitarian intervention when disaster strikes our neighbours, then we must also have the right to look to the world in expectation of some defrayment of cost.

I conclude by offering the IFP’s support for this Vote, but in offering the support, I hope the Minister will take on board the need to sort out the important issue of financial obligations and liabilities. [Applause.]

Genl C L VILJOEN: Mnr die Voorsitter, agb Minister, die VF wil ook graag sê ons betreur die dood van die geneesheer-generaal. Gen Masuku was ‘n baie aanvaarbare persoonlikheid en sy dood is beslis vir ons ‘n verlies. Dan wil ek vir die uniformmense sê die feit dat ek net drie minute praat, beteken nie dat ek nie meer het om te sê nie. Ek het baie meer om te sê, maar dit is wat die demokrasie my toelaat.

Die VF glo aan die SA Nasionale Weermag as ‘n organisasie wat apolities moet wees en een waarop almal trots kan wees. Wie sal nou nie trots kan wees op die soort operasie wat uitgevoer is in Mosambiek nie! My hartlike gelukwense aan die Minister, aan sy hele departement en veral aan die Lugmag. Ek het al in 1985 gesê, toe ek afgetree het, vir sy taak en sy grootte, is die SA Lugmag die beste lugmag in die wêreld, en dit lyk my hulle is nog steeds die beste lugmag in die wêreld. [Applous.] [Tussenwerpsels.]

As ek sê dat die SA Weermag ‘n belangrike organisasie is, dan moet agb lede weet die Weermag moet ook aanvaarbaar wees vir almal. Hier is twee aspekte waaraan ek graag die Minister wil vra om aandag te gee. Die eerste is die kwessie van taal. Daar moet vir al die tale in die Weermag ‘n plek wees. Tweedens is daar die kwessie van politieke aanstellings. Die Minister moet ons asseblief ‘n versekering gee dat daar in die Weermag geen politieke aanstellings gemaak sal word nie, want die Weermag behoort aan almal. Die Weermag behoort nie aan een politieke party wat vir die huidige die politieke toneel oorheers nie.

Die Weermag is verder, volgens die VF, die finale instrument vir stabiliteit in ons land. Ons glo dat daar aan die Weermag fondse toegeken moet word volgens behoefte en dat die Minister dan verantwoordelik is om dit behoorlik te bestee. Die VF sal hierdie begrotingspos steun, want ons meen die fondse is noodsaaklik, maar ons wil ook sê daar is ‘n onderbegroting, volgens die departement, waarvan ons bewus is. Die VF stem saam dat onderbegroting bestaan veral sover dit grensbeheer en steun aan die SA Polisie betref, maar ons glo ook dat die Weermag binne hulle eie vermoë ‘n herverdeling van fondse kan toepas om te kan bykom. Dit is twee belangrike nasionale prioriteite. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)

[Gen C L VILJOEN: Mr Chairperson, hon Minister, we in the Freedom Front would also like to say that we regret the death of the surgeon-general. Gen Masuku was a very pleasant person and his death is definitely a loss for us. Furthermore, I would like to say to the people in uniform that the fact that I shall only speak for three minutes does not mean that I have nothing more to say. I have a lot more to say, but this is what democracy allows me.

The FF believes in the SA National Defence Force as an organisation which should be apolitical, and one of which everybody should be proud. Who would not be proud of the kind of operation that was carried out in Mozambique! My sincere congratulations to the Minister, to his whole department and especially to the Air Force. As long ago as 1985, when I retired, I said that for its task and its size, the SA Air Force was the best air force in the world, and it would seem that it is still the best air force in the world. [Interjections.] [Applause.]

When I say that the SA Defence Force is an important organisation, then hon members must know that the Defence Force must also be acceptable to everybody. Here are two aspects I would like to ask the Minister to pay attention to. The first is the issue of language. There should be a place for all the languages in the Defence Force. Secondly, there is the issue of political appointments. The Minister must please give us the assurance that there will be no political appointments in the Defence Force, because the Defence Force belongs to everybody. The Defence Force does not belong to a political party which dominates the political arena at a given moment.

Furthermore, the Defence Force, according to the FF, is the final instrument for stability in our country. We believe that funds should be allocated to the Defence Force according to need and that the Minister should then be responsible for spending those funds properly. The FF will support this Vote, because we are of the opinion that the funds are essential, but we also want to say that according to the department, and as we are aware, it is underbudgeted. The FF agrees that there is underbudgeting, especially as far as border control and support to the SA Police are concerned, but we also believe that the Defence Force can implement a redistribution of funds within their own means to make up the shortfall. These are two important national priorities.]

We need to have a quick look at priorities. I would like to start off by saying that the basic training and discipline in the Defence Force should be the Minister’s first priority. It serves no purpose getting R30 billion worth of weapons if the Minister does not have the right and properly disciplined people to deal with these weapons.

Together with that there is also the question of morale and a sense of esprit de corps. If the Minister admits coherence problems and disciplinary problems within the Defence Force, then this is where he has to start. Secondly, there is the question of human resources at all levels. If we have the problem of a 60% to 70% prevalence of HIV/Aids infections in the Defence Force, this is a very big red flag flying and the Minister will have to give us more of an indication as to what he intends to do about that.

Coming to downsizing, this is where the Minister has to start, because the Defence Force is far too expensive and the dislocation or the disruption of … [Time expired.] [Applause.]

Mrs Z A KOTA: Chairperson, Minister of Defence, comrades and colleagues, allow me to welcome in this august House members of the Department of Defence. Before addressing this House on this important budget, I would like to pay tribute to ``Dr Hager’’, Lt Gen Masuku, who left us at a time when the country needed him most. We thank his family for allowing him to be part of the revolutionary movement.

On this day we remember Comrade Gaby Shapiro who passed away yesterday. She was a veteran and member of the provincial executive of the ANC Women’s League in the Western Cape. We shall always remember Comrade Gaby by ensuring that the financial books of the ANC Women’s League in our province are kept in the right manner. Long live the spirit of our comrades, long live! [Applause.]

The White Paper on Defence provides us with the fundamental values, principles, objectives and strategies for the transformation of defence policy in our new democracy. On the other hand, the Defence Review has the following objectives: Firstly, it seeks to define in sufficient detail South Africa’s defence requirements over the next decade. Secondly, it seeks to ensure that these requirements are consistent with budgetary realities, the constitutional functions of the SANDF and the White Paper provision that the armed forces shall be primarily defence oriented. Thirdly, it seeks to build and maintain a national consensus on defence matters to the greatest extent possible. It is that consensus that guides us as different parties in this Parliament in ensuring that defence matters are dealt with in a sensitive manner which ensures that defence is not used as a political football.

In the White Paper we supported the national priority of redirecting state funds towards development and social services. At the same time we motivated for maintaining the combat readiness of the SANDF, as a result of which the Government released funds to address the obsolence of the Navy and the Air Force, with the understanding that the purchase of this equipment will in turn create jobs and lead to economic empowerment in some sectors of our society. We arrived at these decisions as a result of discussions between the department, the defence committees and Cabinet. More importantly, they were the product of an extensive and intensive consultation process throughout the country, which included a whole range of nongovernmental organisations.

The ongoing challenge of the Department of Defence has been to ensure that these noble ideas and goals are supported by all members of the SANDF, more particularly by senior officials who have the responsibility for implementing these decisions. A generation gap between transformation- minded officers and others had to be bridged. The civic education programme was meant to be an instrument through which these tensions could be managed. The question remains: To what extent have these nation-building programmes been able to achieve their desired goals? What were the frustrations and how were they managed? The Tempe incident is but one example.

What has been identified, in the process of the Defence Review, as a weakness in the SANDF was communication within its structures. Building a two-way communication system is long overdue, particularly in the Army where there is still mistrust between the members of the integrated forces. The military tradition of the top-down approach needs to be supplemented by a bottom-up communication system to address grievances from all levels. Martial courts have been replaced with more humane measures to address the issue of discipline in the SANDF. We support the measures that have been taken by the Defence Ministry in addressing the issue of discipline in the Army; we support our Comrade Minister.

We have a military ombudsperson, but the shortcoming is that this person does not have resources to perform his functions. He is using SANDF cars to perform his functions. How can this person be objective and independent? The location of this office therefore needs to be addressed as soon as possible.

The budget debate today calls on all of us to see whether the Department of Defence is justified in its appeal for more money. In response to that call one would look at the core force approach and philosophy, underpinned by a strategy which argues for the retention of an affordable, modern and balanced Defence Force which is appropriate to a peace-time role, but capable of performing and responding timeously to meet any defence contingencies which may arise within a realistic warning period.

We are very clear on the fact that the SANDF does, at present, have those capabilities. The only concern at the moment is that the Army is not catered for. They would like to buy more army tanks. One organisational development concern is that, at the moment, more money is being spent on personnel due to the presence of 12 000 soldiers who need to be rationalised.

I have a different view on that. I do not see the 12 000 people as a problem. We think it is appropriate for the Government to delay this process of rationalisation until the issue of criteria for rationalisation has been dealt with thoroughly. Interdisciplinary measures should be taken to ensure the placement of demobilised soldiers, so that other departments can absorb these people and also ensure that the service corps is equipped to deal with this responsibility when that need arises. I support Mr Smit in his call for ensuring that there should be multiskilling of all the members of the SANDF.

Allow me to address the issue of HIV/Aids in the SANDF. The present report in the newspapers that 60% of SANDF members are HIV-infected is not authentic and is not scientific. It is bad reporting at a time when we are faced with the challenge of rationalisation and at a time when we are busy with peacekeeping missions. It is, indeed, racism. [Interjections.] Of course, we are not saying that members of the SANDF are immune to being infected with HIV/Aids, but the reporting must be accurate. We call upon the management of the SANDF to see this as a challenge.

We support the initiatives currently being taken by the SANDF in embarking on HIV/Aids awareness programmes to prevent the spread of this deadly disease. We need to create mechanisms to support those infected through increasing the budget of Sams, so that they are able to acquire relevant drugs. What we should avoid is to prejudice those members who are infected. We need to encourage all members to voluntarily declare their status.

In conclusion - coming back to the issue of budget - the worrying factor is the question raised by the Auditor-General regarding financial controls within the Department of Defence, and whether there are mechanisms put in place to improve that situation. The department has to begin to take the resolution of Parliament regarding financial control seriously. The question of stocktaking needs to be thoroughly examined, in the light of whether it is advisable for the Department of Defence to have a high concentration of stock if it cannot guarantee its safety. How can we be expected to motivate the buying of more equipment if the present equipment is vulnerable to theft or abuse?

As public representatives, we need to be convinced that the priorities of the Department of Defence are correct. We would not like to be seen assisting in a situation of self-created comfort zones where each budget debate is used to ask for more money, but where mechanisms to safeguard those assets are not in place. I support this budget. [Applause.]

Mr S B NTULI: Chairperson, hon members, at the outset I want to state categorically that we in the ANC unconditionally support this budget.

Why do we take this position? Considered from the internal South African perspective, a reasonable budget for the Department of Defence is aimed at addressing the following issues. Firstly, it will provide an opportunity for the creation of jobs; secondly, it will alleviate the problem of crime; and, thirdly, it will assist in the restructuring of the Defence Force.

Nothwithstanding the aforementioned advantages which will accrue to South Africa, there are other pertinent factors of which we should take cognisance. In fact, I am tempted to say that these factors are deliberately or negligently overlooked by those who disapprove of this budget. We find ourselves in Africa, and it is an indisputable fact that the African continent has, and continues to have, a reputation as a continent plagued by regional conflicts. Although we as Africans do not take this as a compliment, we nevertheless acknowledge the presence of such conflicts and take cognisance of their negative implications for regional security and stability.

How does South Africa fit into this picture? We must admit that we are not immune to such forces of regional instability. Instability somewhere is a threat to stability elsewhere. When there is instability elsewhere in the region, we are all, as the inhabitants of the region, directly or indirectly affected. This is exemplified by an influx of refugees to South Africa due to instability in their countries from Africa and beyond. We must ask ourselves, given this context, what will happen to the wellbeing of our citizens if in the midst of such instability we face its negative consequences with a weak or an ill-equipped Defence Force?

We will not be able to have effective control of our borders. A laissez- faire state of affairs is bound to exist. There will be lawlessness in this country. Refugees will be entering our country without any regulations. Needless to say, this state of affairs is incompatible with what the Department of Defence is striving to achieve, namely to defend and protect South Africa, its territorial integrity and its people. Instead of carrying out this mandate we will be victims of regional, social, political and economic instability.

This argument leads me to another point, which is that we must acknowledge the interdependence of nations. It is a reality that at the turn of this millennium, more than ever before, countries are increasingly becoming dependent on each other, not only to ensure their prosperity, but, importantly, also for their wellbeing. South Africa is no exception. For this reason, we cannot fold our arms when something that has a direct impact on the wellbeing of our citizens and the stability of the South African democratic state is happening to our neighbours, or anywhere for that matter. Whenever such a problem arises, we must rise to the occasion.

We have a role to play as a peacekeeping force. We have to protect our democratic values, for which many have sacrificed their lives. Will we be able to meet such challenges with an ill-equipped or weak Defence Force? It is inconceivable that South Africa will be attacked one day. Some of us, I assume, would argue that there is no reasonable prospect of such a thing happening. The reality, however, is that the future is unpredictable and change is the only thing that we can be certain of. Today’s best friend may be tomorrow’s worst enemy. The wise man or woman, therefore, arms himself or herself for such a possibility, so that when it occurs, he or she will not be caught off-guard.

Our argument is basically centred around two issues, namely stability and change. We need a strong, well-equipped Defence Force to ensure that stability prevails not only for the wellbeing of South Africa, but also that of our region and our continent. To meet these challenges, an adequately equipped and well-trained Defence Force is necessary, not only for the protection of our citizens but also for peacekeeping in the promotion of regional stability so as to ensure South Africa’s wellbeing. For us to achieve and maintain our wellbeing as a country in an interdependent world, and for purposes of ensuring regional stability, this Defence Budget, as proposed, is imperative. Furthermore, in order for our Defence Force to able to play such a role effectively, this budget is necessary.

We must continually prepare ourselves for change because we do not know what tomorrow brings. As some of us may recall, when Macmillan addressed members of Parliament on 3 February 1960, within these very precincts of Parliament, he spoke of the winds of change. Representatives of some parties in this House, who today claim to have been reborn and to have experienced transformation in thought, thought then that he was building castles in the air. They ignored his advice, outlawed liberation movements, massacred people, for example in Sharpeville, and pushed the liberation movement to take up the armed struggle. It seems as if that mentality has not changed, because, even today, we still have people who are opposed to this Defence budget and who doubt or refuse to acknowledge that change is inevitable.

Regional stability today can easily turn into open conflict tomorrow. Are they prepared to learn from the mistakes of the past, or are they, as always, deliberately turning a blind eye to the realities we face? Let us be awake to such changes. Let us not be short-sighted. In supporting this budget, we are preparing for tomorrow, because we never know what tomorrow might bring.

Lastly, I want to say: Let us not make the mistake of not learning from history. [Time expired.] [Applause.]

Miss S RAJBALLY: Mr Chairperson, hon Minister, our kgosis [chiefs] here, hon members …

… ngithi kuMnu uNgqongqoshe, siyabonga. Imithwalo yakhe inzima kakhulu kodwa sithandazela ukuthi uNkulunkulu abe naye. [Ihlombe.] [… to the hon the Minister I would like to say thank you. All the burdens that he must carry are heavy, but we pray that God will help him. [Applause.]]

The SA National Defence Force is tasked, within the ambit of the Constitution and the principles of international law, with the responsibility of protecting the country against external or internal military threats. In South Africa, democracy is like an acquired taste for people who have no guarantee that antidemocracy troublemakers will not silently manipulate conflict amongst our citizens.

Therefore, training and maintaining prepared combatants is a realistic necessity. However, this must not be done with the intention of creating a military regime.

Essentially, the SANDF must work at being nonracial, and must always uphold democratic values and be accountable to Parliament. The role of the Defence Force is to deter external aggression. The armed forces must be professionally equipped and trained so that they can accomplish their mission credibly.

The Defence Force also has a number of secondary tasks. One is to enhance regional security and another to support civilian authority during national disasters and emergencies. More financial provision must be made in this particular area to upgrade soldiers’ skills in order to improve the soldiers’ response time and proactiveness. A third task is to provide support to the police in controlling internal unrest. To avoid unnecessary problems, active military support to the police in time of need must be executed through legislative control. The military must always be called in as a last resort at a point when the police and civil authority have deemed it necessary.

The culture of the Defence Force must be professional and apolitical in nature. The transformation and restructuring of the Defence Force must revolve around the wisdom of nation-building in South Africa. Reliable leadership at various levels within the Defence Force provides a balance of power between the individual in uniform and the state, and between the state and external elements that present a threat to its sovereignty. The SANDF must never assist or indulge in arms deal contracts with countries that are at war and where people’s basic human rights are infringed upon.

We live in a plural society. Therefore the Defence Force must tolerate differing opinions, and it must remember that it is subject to public discussion, just like any other institution. The SANDF must face criticism both in public and by the media, and must be mature enough not to perceive this criticism as unpatriotic. Of course, criticism levelled at the SANDF must be legitimate and in context.

The MF applauds and commends the SANDF on the recent display of heroism during the rescue missions in Mozambique and supports this Vote. [Applause.]

Ms T R MODISE: Chairperson, hon Minister, hon Deputy Minister, hon members, the pride of South Africans, young and old, black and white, men and women, is indescribable. Our sense and our source of pride are our men and women in uniform, because of their valiant efforts in fighting life-threatening veld fires in and around Cape Town, the brave rescue mission that all of us have been speaking about, and their bravery in rescuing American victims of terrorism. All this pride and this ownership is, in fact, the final acceptance by South Africans of the SANDF. Because of this pride and this public ownership and admiration, parliamentarians must do their work honestly, effortlessly and fearlessly. [Interjections.]

Rule 201(1)(c) of this House confers powers on the portfolio committee to, amongst other things -

… monitor, investigate, enquire into and make recommendations concerning any such executive organ of state, constitutional institution or other body or institution, including the legislative programme, budget, rationalisation, restructuring, functioning, organisation, structure, staff and policies of such organ … Rule 201(1)(d) enables the committee to liaise and consult, whilst Rule 201(1)(e) obliges the committee to carry out these rules and functions. Therefore, the fact that the portfolio committee is interested in the issue of the structure is because we are obliged to do our work.

Now, Chapter 11 of the Constitution deals extensively with civil and military relations. To give effect to democratic and civilian control over the military and defence policy, Parliament is given a range of significant powers. For example, whilst the Chief of the SANDF enjoys executive military powers under the direction of the Minister, Parliament has legislative powers, approves the budget, and reviews the presidential decisions to deploy the SANDF. The interim Constitution of 1993 called for the establishment of the Joint Standing Committee on Defence and spelled out its scope and its powers.

Furthermore, the Rules of this House empower committees to determine their meetings, their venues and their programmes. I repeat that, because we have this vested interest and because we are obliged by the Constitution and the Rules, we will pursue the issue around the process followed in the structuring of the SANDF. We will ask questions about this and the guidelines used. We shall be duty-bound to investigate and make recommendations on the possible implication of this altered structure on the policy, on the functioning and on the morale of the Department of Defence. I do not think that the road will be easy, but then, the past has not been easy either. However, we must do our job.

We support this Vote. We have a little bit of a problem with it here and there. For instance, the budget reflects a 31,83% increase, but this is not actually true, because R2,8 billion, earmarked for defence acquisitions is actually included in this budget. Therefore, if one takes out the R2,8 billion, one will actually not see much of a difference between the 1999- 2000 and 2000-01 budgets. We have a difference of something like R530 million, which is not much of an increase in the Defence budget.

Significantly though, the department tells us that, in fact, because of our current rate of inflation, this R9,9 billion budget has actually lost purchasing power of 5% on the operating budget of the Department of Defence. Sadly, this little increase goes mostly into the improvement of the conditions of service. The personnel bill has jumped from R5,3 billion to R5,7 billion. I do hope that most of this increase will go to the lower ranks where it is actually sorely needed.

The next question, of course, is the question which has been bandied in the House today, ie whether if one rationalises 12 000 members of the SA National Defence Force, one will actually have real savings, or whether one will see any improvement in one’s spending ratios. I am not actually sure whether this is the case because natural attrition and voluntary retrenchment packages have not shown us that we have made any real savings when people leave the service. Therefore, I want to tell the hon Mr Botha of the DP that it is absolutely not true to say that the ANC is reluctant to rationalise.

We are not reluctant to rationalise. We want to see the process done correctly, and we want to see the alternatives worked out and put in front of us so that when ex-members of the SA National Defence Force enter civil society, they have been well prepared and we do not let loose into normal society members who have very dangerous skills and who are jobless. [Applause.]

We also just want to look a little bit at the need to outsource nonmilitary functions which has been drummed into our heads by the department. The question is really whether we make any savings in this. If one looks at the current Defence budget, the one we are talking about today, there is an increase of 0,64% for consultancy, while the professional services allocation jumps by 4,31%. I do not want to begrudge the department money for these services, but let us see what the department states in the explanatory memorandum. It says:

… the defence allocation is not sufficient to sustain the force design and force structure as set out in the Defence Review.

And further on it says:

The declining balance available for operating the SA Army results in a lack of funds to meet the escalating, more intensive, maintenance demands of aging landward defence weapon systems …

And then it goes on to say:

… air defence artillery capability, is already below the core growth capability.

Now why do they want to spend more on outsourcing and the so-called ``other professional services’’ when they actually have their air defence artillery capability illegally below the core growth capability? It would seem to me then that we must look at the area of consultancy and these professional services.

I am also a little bit worried about the almost double entry of Programme 9, which is the Special Defence Account. We are told that this programme is used for banking the money for strategic packages, spares and sensitive projects. An elaboration by the department revealed that these sensitive projects are connected to military intelligence, and yet one has as Programme 6 military intelligence as a standalone that receives R151 104 million.

Now this happens apart from the very serious statement that says the department must cut down on the flying hours of force preparations in the Air Force. The number of hours is to be cut from 42 820 to 20 800, owing to a lack of operating funds and some unforeseen aircraft repairs. Frankly, I think there is a big problem around this area.

Maybe some committee members here know whether there are proper accounting systems in place for the programmes on military intelligence. I do not know. If we were clear on, for instance, the Joint Standing Committee on Intelligence having enough oversight of the issues of military intelligence, I would not be standing here saying so. However, if the Joint Standing Committee on Intelligence does not have this oversight, because, certainly, we do not have this oversight of military intelligence, then surely Cabinet must come to the rescue. Cabinet must do something so that there is proper accounting in this area. [Applause.]

It is true that border control, police support operations and humanitarian relief missions are not the reasons for the existence of the SANDF, nor do any of us want to see them solely deployed in this capacity. But when we lost our pariah status, when our posture became primarily defensive and we became legitimate and respected, we also became responsible neighbours. Whether we like it or not, that costs money. We must, therefore, accept that the SANDF has been occupied with these secondary functions since 1994, and surely by now we know the spending patterns. Surely by now we can almost say per annum this is how much we are expected to spend in this area, so that we do not have to keep coming here and saying that we cannot do this because we do not have the money.

The Defence Bill contains provisions which require that the President detail the size, the nature of deployment and the related costs of any deployment of the SANDF in future. This, we know, will facilitate the authorisation of any expenditure which would be related to any secondary deployment of the Defence Force. Therefore we will not continue being followed by bad reports from the Auditor-General.

The international trend in defence spending is 1,5% of GDP. South Africa is within this margin. South Africa has just committed herself to refurbishment to the tune of R29 billion. There is absolutely no way in which we are going to be able to convince the public to start right away with refurbishing the Army, the Army that says to us that its equipment comes from the middle and late eighties, while in defence terms that equipment is still brand new and still has a lot of wear and tear.

The loss of equipment is a bit of a problem. Some years ago the Joint Standing Committee on Defence called in the members of military intelligence. One of the questions we put to them was: Do you know what has happened to the arms and ammunition that was stolen from the department? Either they had not bothered to look for them or they thought that that information was not for our consumption. Therefore I want to appeal for measures to be put in place within this department so that thieves and chancers are actually given their just desserts. [Applause.]

We are tired of the chaos that we read about in the papers. [Applause.] We do not just want to hear about breaking the silence on the HIV/Aids scourge within the department. We want to know what the department and are doing actively to ensure that we do come out with a cure and inoculations in this field. We do not want to hear what we keep on hearing, that they are busy right now with a drug that modifies child behaviour. One can modify a child’s behaviour if one can make sure that that child lives.

As I said, we are supporting the budget, but we are worried about the budgeting priorities of the Defence Force, and I am very happy to know that the Deputy Minister will personally be seized with this issue. She will have all our support and we will want to be there with her, so that next time I do not stand here and keep harping on issues while the committee members do not. [Time expired.] [Applause.]

The MINISTER OF DEFENCE: Chairperson, first of all, may I extend my gratitude to all the parties for coming out in support of the budget process. There have been very legitimate concerns raised and criticism on parts of the work. That is all very well because it does help to highlight areas which require urgent attention. I should also say, in relation to the committees, that it is quite regrettable that we have not, in the recent past, been able to be present at the briefings owing to other commitments which could not be set aside, but I do want to make a commitment that we will constantly be available, either both or alternatively, whenever these briefings come up.

The question of rightsizing is one that has been raised by almost all the speakers, and I do want to say that we are dealing with this matter. I am very happy that we have not rushed into it and put ourselves in even deeper problems. I raised the issue with the relevant cluster of Ministers and indicated that we did not think that it would be a solution of the problem to take large numbers of men and women who are very disciplined, well trained and capable individuals and put them out on the streets, because the following day we would be invited by the SA Police Service to come and support them in arresting those people.

Therefore the shifting of the problem is not an answer. I therefore have made a recommendation, and we are now agreed in the relevant cluster of Ministers, that the SA Police Service should be working out criteria for selecting men and women whom they would be willing to accept for retraining and remustering, because there is a huge shortage of personnel in the SA Police Service. In this way, we will be in a position to continue the process of downsizing without worsening the situation of crime and unemployment in the country. A number of departments are working with us with regard to that.

With regard to the question of peace missions, I was quite touched by the sentiments of the hon Mabeta when I raised this issue about Gen Holomisa. I should say this to this House and I therefore take members into my confidence. When the issue came up during the debate on the President’s Address, I was quite astounded that an assertion could be made that South Africa had taken sides in the DRC peace process. We are the one country that has refused to support one or the other side. A number of our neighbours actually have military formations in the DRC, some supporting President Kabila and his side, and others supporting Dr Ilunga, Prof Wamba dia Wamba and the MLC under J P Bemba.

We have refused to take sides in this matter, because we have said that the answer must be found by pushing these people towards a national dialogue. That is why we have refused even to sell weaponry to the belligerents who had already placed orders. We have their money, but we suspended the sale and delivery of those weapons. We have done all that because of our commitment to peace in the region and for the safety of our own people, because problems in our neighbouring countries might overflow into this country. That is why we are refusing to do this.

However, that hon member rose here and made those statements. When I joined the Minister of Foreign Affairs to have discussions with President Kabila and his people recently, about two or three weeks ago, they relied on the statement that was made here, saying that South Africa - and this matter has already been raised even in our Parliament - has taken sides in the DRC. That weakened our capacity to debate the issues with them. [Interjections.] Therefore, all I am saying is that the hon member should have asked us the question: ``Has the Government taken sides? We have information that the Government is doing that.’’ I asked him for the evidence, but he has provided no information, to this day. But what I found significant is that when we went down on this mission recently to see President Kabila, two days before we arrived, he entered that country. He did not make any contact with our mission, and what he was doing there when we were faced with this thing has raised a big question in my mind.

I have said as much to the President of the country, viz that this is a serious situation. If the UN, of course, invites us to take part in the DRC, we will do so. The only condition is that we must be welcome. We must know that the populace of that country welcomes our presence there. I will not make a recommendation to the President of the country, who is the Commander-in-Chief of the National Defence Force, that we should take young South Africans and place them in an atmosphere in which there is a real danger that the populace of that country may attack them because of statements such as these ones. [Interjections.]

I proceed then to deal with the issue that has also been rightly raised, the issue of the theft of weaponry and other equipment of the National Defence Force that I reported in a reply in this House. I think this is very important. The question only asked what had been stolen, and so on. It did not ask how much of that which was lost in that period of time had been recovered. The impression is left, since I answered the question as asked, that all of those things that were reported stolen have been lost forever.

Much of this equipment has been recovered. Some of it is still being pursued and I would be happy, at some point after this, to present to Parliament an indication of what has happened in each and everyone of these cases, so that there is clarity on the part of the members of the House and the country at large as to what is being done. Members will observe, as they look at that reply, that much of this was stolen at various times at different bases, and so on. But much of it has been recovered and what is outstanding is still being pursued by the police.

With regard to the issue of the language policy, I have made the issue quite clear to the National Defence Force: This country has 11 official languages and those languages, as elsewhere, must enjoy a status similar to the one they enjoy in this House. Therefore, we are grappling with that issue. We are reviewing the position of the Communications Directorate, its composition and location, so that we can be sure that when Salute or any of the magazines of the SA National Defence Force goes out, members of the National Defence Force can find themselves in the various pages of this documentation; and that when policy statements are issued, there is reasonable certainty that all of the members of the National Defence Force will be able to access them and understand them better as they will be published, among others, in their mother tongue. We are working on this issue.

The issue of language is a very sore one, and I have said so to members of the SANDF, even a few days ago. When Lt Madubela telephoned the unit commander in Bloemfontein during his father’s burial, the unit commander who responded spoke to him in Afrikaans. He, of course, came from a part of the country where Afrikaans is not as dominant a language or as widely spoken as in the Free State. But he made an effort to speak in Afikaans. He could have said: Xhosa is my mother tongue and is an official language, therefore I will speak to you in that language.'' But he made a genuine effort to reach out to the unit commander, who nevertheless, took the position:Jy moet Afrikaans praat; ek is die baas.’’ Those were not his words, but I take the position of saying that any general or commander who thinks that we are still in 1952 or 1948 in the SANDF is making a mistake. [Applause.]

I think that any commander who cannot speak Sesotho and comes across somebody who speaks that language but at least makes an effort to speak English - which is a language they can more or less understand - ought to be humble enough also to make an effort to reach out to the other person. Anyone in the command structure of the SANDF who does not adopt this attitude is not fit to lead in the SANDF. [Applause.] But I should immediately also say that I appreciate very much the observations which have been made by members, especially the point that Gen Viljoen made.

The SANDF should not be disrupted by political loyalties. The men and women we have in there have a singular duty that requires them to respect the other and work together. We must, therefore, cultivate an atmosphere in which they can feel that they are being ordered or led by a command structure and political leadership that is committed to all of them and, therefore, enhances the coherence among them. So, political considerations will shift somewhat to the back. The primary task is what we are faced with. Whatever political views the members of the SANDF may have, they will man the voting stations, and so on. But within the operation of the SANDF and its bases, we expect to see men and women singularly committed to this task and therefore cultivating an atmosphere that strengthens its unity.

A point has been raised that we should honour those who took part in the mission in Mozambique. I know that there is a lot of keenness, which I also share. But it is important that we should consider the matter very carefully. Whatever gesture is extended to our forces who participated in Mozambique, we must realise that we will be setting a precedent for all those who will soon be deployed to various missions around the world. Therefore, we have to think very carefully about this issue; we have to take action that places us on a footing to say that, in future, any member of the SANDF serving in a mission for the nation may expect the possibility of this kind of treatment.

We cannot afford to do things without thinking about them seriously. Somebody said to me that we must perhaps establish a medal called Rosita Pedro, which can be issued. There are so many ideas that people are throwing around. We are considering the matter. I can, however, say to the House that on 27 April 2000, the President will descend on Bloemfontein where we will have a major gathering. Among other things, we will launch the new coat of arms for the SANDF. I expect that on that occasion we will have an opportunity to address this concern that members have raised.

With regard to the peace operations - Maluti, Operation Boleas, and so on - I need to take this opportunity to clarify some aspects of this matter. Earlier on, the hon Smit sent me a question on this matter, and we have heard about the toing and froing on this issue. One of the necessary documents - the memorandums of understanding and so on - has been signed, and others were outstanding. I have been to Lesotho and we signed this last week with a Minister from Botswana, representatives from Zimbabwe and Ministers from Lesotho and South Africa, a foursome, looking as this issue of the Maluti operation. I can now say to the House that we have signed the formal documents. The responsibility for the operations there has therefore been clarified in these documents. Principally, the government of Lesotho, having requested SADC to come and assist, carries that obligation. What will happen subsequent to that, in terms of implementation, is a different matter. I will not go into that at this stage.

With regard to the situation in Mozambique, South Africa took the initiative to go in. We have the responsibility with regard to that, but other responsibilities are being carried out by the United Nations. [Time expired.] [Applause.]

Debate concluded.

               NONPROFIT ORGANISATIONS AMENDMENT BILL

                       (Second Reading debate)

Order disposed of without debate.

Bill read a second time.

The House adjourned at 12:40. ____

            ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS

TABLINGS:

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces:

Papers:

1. The Minister for the Public Service and Administration:

 Report of the Public Service Commission on the Management of
 Remunerated Overtime in the Public Service [RP 171-99].