WEDNESDAY, 12 APRIL 2000 __

                PROCEEDINGS OF THE NATIONAL ASSEMBLY

The House met at 15:14.

The Speaker took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayers or meditation.

ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS - See col 000.

                      LATE START TO PROCEEDINGS

The SPEAKER: Order! Hon members, I heard that you wanted to send a search party, but you will be glad to know there was no need for one. I would have thought, however, that you might have wanted to send the Whips rather than the Deputy President!

There was a problem with starting on time, as you are aware. We were checking some of the facilities and there was a subsequent failure in communications. However, I do apologise to hon members.

QUESTIONS AND REPLIES - see that book.

                          NOTICES OF MOTION

Mr R D PIETERSE: Chairperson, I give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the ANC:

That the House -

(1) notes that Hansie Cronjé’s actions have undermined the integrity of sport, and cricket in particular;

(2) believes that no one is above the law and justice must take its course;

(3) expresses dismay and shock at the revelation by Hansie Cronjé that he accepted money during the series between South Africa, England and Zimbabwe;

(4) supports the call for the establishment of the commission of inquiry to investigate the Hansie Cronjé affair;

(5) calls on the United Cricket Board of SA to co-operate with India in this investigation, and on all South Africans to continue their support of our national team against Australia;

(6) expresses confidence in Captain Shaun Pollock’s leadership abilities;

(7) wishes Shaun and the boys the best of luck in today’s game against Australia; and

(8) urges all South Africans to support the Proteas during this series.

[Applause.]

Mr D H M GIBSON: Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the DP:

That the House -

(1) condemns the motion by the Chief Whip of the ANC yesterday when he referred to ``land occupations’’ and warned political parties here to lend theirs unstinting support to Government land reform measures;

(2) notes that the DP will not be cowed into supporting ANC policy, because DP policy on land reform is far more radical in addressing land hunger in South Africa, as it entails allocating unused state land to the landless and dispossessed; and

(3) recognises that land reform in Zimbabwe has been bogus in that -

   (a)  2 million acres of land bought with donor money lie in state
       hands;

   (b)  President Mugabe's cronies have been given land meant for the
       poor;

   (c)  forcible seizure is not necessary because many farms are
       available for purchase by government; and
   (d)  Britain's offer to help a proper land reform programme has been
       rejected.

Chief M W HLENGWA: Mr Chairman, I give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the IFP:

That the House -

(1) recognises the important role that co-operation between the private sector and Government can play in the social upliftment of previously disadvantaged communities;

(2) notes with deep appreciation the act by Sappi Saiccor in Umkomaas in building a school costing R1,2 million for the community of New Haven township in KwaZulu-Natal;

(3) urges other private sector businesses to follow the shining example of Sappi Saiccor’s commitment to assist previously disadvantaged communities; and

(4) calls on the relevant Minister to do his utmost to promote, encourage and facilitate private sector co-operation in similar projects.

Mr D A HANEKOM: Chairperson, I give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the ANC:

That the House -

(1) notes the important contribution of the agricultural sector to economic growth, foreign exchange earnings and the domestic supply of food and fibre;

(2) acknowledges the entrepreneurship of our farmers and the valuable contribution of almost a million farm workers in this regard;

(3) further notes with concern reported human rights abuses against farm workers in certain parts of our country;

(4) expresses its appreciation to those farmers who are doing their utmost to provide decent wages and generally good working and living conditions to the workers they employ; and (5) appeals to all farmers to respect the dignity and human rights of all workers on farms and to treat them as partners in the production of food and fibre for our nation.

[Applause.]

Mr C M MORKEL: Mr Chairman, I hereby give notice that at the next sitting of the House I shall move on behalf of the New NP:

That the House -

(1) acknowledges that our national cricket team is under immense pressure to perform at their best under a volley of bouncers and no-balls; and

(2) asks our boys to keep their eye on the ball while defending our wickets by taking the battle to our opposition in the knowledge that they have our unanimous support for the victory they will most certainly score during the series against Australia, which starts today.

Mr S J DE BEER: Chairperson, I give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I will move on behalf of the UDM:

That the House -

(1) notes with dismay the recent increase in the price of fuel;

(2) acknowledges the direct impact such an increase in the price of fuel will have on inflation, and specifically on the price of consumer goods;

(3) acknowledges that the cost of living will increase not only for our citizens as consumers but also for the millions of our citizens who are daily commuters;

(4) acknowledges that the current complex system of taxes and levies on fuel is a relic of the apartheid era; and

(5) calls on Government to simplify the fuel tax system and to lower the cost of fuel in order to encourage economic growth and to put hard- earned money back in the pockets of our citizens. Ms F B MARSHOFF: Chairperson, I give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the ANC:

That the House -

(1) notes -

   (a)  that the Minister of Finance, Trevor Manuel, and the Director-
       General of Finance, Maria Ramos, are attending the spring
       meetings of the World Bank and the International Monetary Fund
       in Washington this week;

   (b)  the comments made by the Minister and the director-general,
       namely that the ``cosy arrangement'' according to which the
       president of the World Bank is an American and the MD of the IMF
       is selected by Europe is wrong; and

   (c)  that the concerns of poor countries are disregarded by these
       institutions' structural arrangements, despite being their
       clients;

(2) endorses the concerns espoused by the Minister; and

(3) calls on the IMF and the World Bank to review their structures to honour their global constituencies, making them more inclusive of the developing world.

[Applause.]

Adv Z L MADASA: Mr Chairman, I give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the ACDP:

That the House -

(1) notes that whereas the majority of South Africans are either practising Christians or regard themselves as Christians -

   (a)  some laws passed by this House contain provisions that erode
       Christian values; and

   (b)  most political parties want the Christian vote, even though they
       reject Christianity; and

(2) calls on all Christians in this House to be steadfast and to defend their Christian values by voting against legislation that erodes such values.

[Interjections.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! Before I call on the next speaker, I want to point out that there is too much noise in the House. Please allow hon members who want to give notice of a motion the time to do so in peace.

Genl C L VILJOEN: Mnr die Voorsitter, ek gee hiermee kennis dat ek op die volgende sittingsdag sal voorstel:

Dat die Huis -

(1) kennis neem van die werk van die tegniese komitee oor die konsepwetgewing wat handel oor die instelling van ‘n kommissie vir die beskerming en bevordering van die regte van gemeenskappe wat kultureel, godsdienstig en taalgewys saamhoort;

(2) met waardering kennis neem van die goeie gees van samewerking in die komitee wat sedert die eerste vergadering op 3 April 2000 heers;

(3) met belangstelling wag op die aanbevelings van die tegniese komitee en ‘n beroep op alle partye doen om aanbevelings van die tegniese komitee ten opsigte van die konsepwetgewing ernstig op te neem; en

(4) glo dat hierdie wetgewing dringend afgehandel moet word. (Translation of Afrikaans notice of motion follows.)

[Gen C L VILJOEN: Mr Chairperson, I hereby give notice that I shall move on the following sitting day:

That the House -

(1) notes the work by die technical committee as regards the draft legislation on the establishment of a commission for the protection and promotion of the rights of communities which belong together on cultural, religious and linguistic grounds;

(2) notes with appreciation the good spirit of co-operation which has prevailed in the committee since the first meeting on 3 April 2000;

(3) awaits with interest the recommendations of the technical committee and appeals to all parties to take recommendations of the technical committee in respect of the draft legislation seriously; and

(4) believes that this legislation must be dealt with as a matter or urgency.]

Ms M C LOBE: Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the ANC:

That the House -

(1) notes the great number of girls, some as young as 13, being exploited as prostitutes on our streets;

(2) notes that there are adults who are renting out flats and rooms to these minors in which to conduct such acts;

(3) recognises the psychological and physical damage inflicted on these children; and

(4) calls on the police to enforce legislation that relates to sexual offences and child prostitution, as prostitution involving minors amounts to statutory rape.

[Applause.]

Mnr A J BOTHA: Mnr die Voorsitter, ek gee hiermee kennis dat ek op die volgende sittingsdag namens die DP sal voorstel:

Dat die Huis -

(1) die Minister vir Landbou en Grondsake versoek om -

   (a)  duidelik en ondubbelsinnig die Ministerie van Landbou se afkeur
       uit te spreek ten opsigte van -


       (i)   die onwettige en gewelddadige besetting van landbougrond
                in Zimbabwe deur gewese soldate en andere; en

       (ii)  die miskenning van landbouers se menseregte in Zimbabwe
                siende dat 'n hofbevel teen die besetting verontagsaam
                word deur die owerhede;


   (b)  Suid-Afrikaanse boere gerus te stel deur haar aan te sluit by
       die agb lid Maphalala wat die versekering gegee het dat hierdie
       soort optrede nie ANC-beleid is nie en ook nie in Suid-Afrika
       geduld sal word nie; en

   (c)  'n multidissiplinêre en veelpartytaakmag saam te stel om
       grondhervorming in Suid-Afrika te bespoedig; en

(2) die Portefeuljekomitee oor Landbou en Grondsake versoek om tesame met die georganiseerde landbou en tradisionele grondowerhede ‘n blitsbesoek aan Zimbabwe te bring om eerstehandse kennis in te win en aan landbouers daar morele onderskraging te verleen.

[Tyd verstreke.] (Translation of Afrikaans notice of motion follows.)

[Mr A J BOTHA: Mr Chairman, I hereby give notice that I shall move on the next sitting day on behalf of the DP:

That the House -

(1) requests the Minister for Agriculture and Land Affairs to -

   (a)  clearly and unambiguously express the Ministry of Agriculture's
       disapproval in respect of -


       (i)   the illegal and violent occupation of agricultural land in
                Zimbabwe by former soldiers and others; and

       (ii)  the denial of the human rights of agriculturalists in
                Zimbabwe seeing that a court order against the
                occupation is being disregarded by the authorities;


   (b)  reassure South African farmers by associating herself with the
       hon member Maphalala, who gave the assurance that this kind of
       conduct is not ANC policy and will not be tolerated in South
       Africa either; and

   (c)  establish a multidisciplinary and multiparty task force to
       expedite land reform in South Africa; and

(2) requests the Portfolio Committee on Agriculture and Land Affairs, together with organised agriculture and traditional land authorities, to pay a flying visit to Zimbabwe in order to gain first-hand knowledge and to lend moral support to agriculturalists there.

[Time expired.]]

Mr V B NDLOVU: Chairperson, I give notice that at the next sitting of the House I shall move:

That the House -

(1) notes with deep concern that in the past fortnight two crew members and one passenger on SA Airways flights have been arrested in connection with drug smuggling;

(2) urges SAA to work in close conjunction with the police and customs officials to stamp out drug smuggling on its flights;

(3) further urges SAA to make it clear to all its staff and passengers that it will not allow itself to be used as an easy route for drugs to enter South Africa; and

(4) congratulates members of the SA Narcotics Bureau and customs officials for their success in making these arrests.

Ms M M SOTYU: Chairperson, I give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the ANC:

That the House -

(1) notes the decline in crime in the Johannesburg central business district between 1998 and 1999, according to figures released by the Johannesburg Central Policing Forum;

(2) further notes that residential burglary has dropped by 35% and car hijacking by 27%;

(3) recognises that the Government continues to improve the efficiency of our law enforcement agencies and the criminal justice system as a whole; and

(4) calls on the general public to work towards improving co-operation between themselves and the Police Service.

[Applause.]

Mrs S M CAMERER: Chair, I give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move:

That the House -

(1) while applauding the fact that our Minister for Justice and Constitutional Development, Penuell Maduna, was chosen by the United Nations to chair the international conference on crime currently in progress in Vienna, nevertheless believes that the Minister should pay more attention to the proper management of his department at home; (2) notes with concern that for the fourth year in a row the Auditor- General has qualified his report on the Justice department’s finances and has indicated that the situation has become progressively worse, with R79 million in unauthorised expenditure in the financial year which ended in March 1999; and

(3) calls on the Minister to clean up his department and fire the officials who, for several years now, have been responsible for the poor and deteriorating financial management and control in the Department of Justice.

[Interjections.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! Hon members, there are certain members who are yelling from their seats while other members are giving notice of motions. What purpose that will serve, I do not understand. [Laughter.]

Ms A VAN WYK: Chairperson, I give notice that at the next sitting of the House I shall move on behalf of the UDM:

That the House, noting the New NP’s, and specifically its leader’s, growing interest in firearms control, and taking into account the current discrepancies in the Central Firearms Register, and that those weapons were distributed under NP governance -

(1) urges the leader of the New NP to deal with his concerns about proposed legislation in the portfolio committee rather than in the media;

(2) calls on the leader of the New NP to assure the House of his and his party’s full co-operation in establishing where the 96% of unaccounted state-owned firearms are, since he as leader of the New NP is in the best position to indicate how they, as the previous government, distributed those weapons; and

(3) calls on Mr Van Schalkwyk to ensure that legal and responsible firearm owners are not unnecessarily penalised for the NP government’s irresponsible dealings in this regard, by assisting in the updating of the current Central Firearms Register and the removal of illegal firearms from the streets.

[Interjections.] [Time expired.] [Applause.] Mr A J FEINSTEIN: Chair, I give notice that at the next sitting of the House I shall move on behalf of the ANC:

That the House -

(1) notes that the British Nazi-apologist, historian David Irving, lost his libel case against a US professor and her publishers in the London High Court yesterday;

(2) further notes that Irving claims that Adolf Hitler had no part in the mass slaughter of Jews and that the Auschwitz death camp was little more than a Disneyland for tourists built after World War II;

(3) acknowledges the judge’s findings that Irving is not a credible historian but an active Holocaust denier, anti-semite and racist; and

(4) calls on all of humanity to reject with contempt and outrage Irving’s shameless lies about one of the most horrific genocides in human history.

[Applause.] Mr M L DA CAMARA: Chairperson, I give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the DP:

That the House -

(1) notes -

   (a)  that the Youth Commissioner in the North West province is facing
       five criminal charges, including -


       (i)   attempted murder;

       (ii)  illegal possession of a firearm;

       (iii) the pointing of a firearm; and

       (iv)  the handling of a firearm under the influence of alcohol;


   (b)  that the Premier of the North West province has failed to
       suspend Mr Moepeng following his appearance in the Klerksdorp
       Magistrates' Court; and

(2) calls on Premier Molefe to suspend Mr Moepeng with immediate effect and without pay.

                 CONGRATULATIONS TO DEPUTY PRESIDENT
                           ON HIS BIRTHDAY

                         (Draft Resolution)

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Chairperson, I move without notice:

That the House -

(1) notes that -

   (a)  over half a century ago today, a child was born to rural parents
       in Nkandla, KwaZulu-Natal; and

   (b)  this child has made a major contribution to the country as a
       whole; and

(2) congratulates the Deputy President on the occasion of his 58th birthday today and wishes him many more.

[Applause.]

Agreed to.

 ELECTION OF MINISTER FOR JUSTICE AND CONSTITUTIONAL DEVELOPMENT AS
         PRESIDENT OF UN 10TH CONGRESS ON CRIME AND JUSTICE

                         (Draft Resolution)

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Chairperson, I move without notice:

That the House -

(1) notes the election of the Minister for Justice and Constitutional Development, Penuell Maduna, as president of the United Nations 10th Congress on Crime and Justice;

(2) recognises that the appointment of Minister Maduna to head such an important conference is a vote of confidence in South Africa by over 3 000 representatives from more than 100 countries; and

(3) commends the Minister for calling on international co-operation and co-ordinated strategies to combat crime at all levels.

[Applause.]

Agreed to.

                  RELIEF EFFORTS IN HORN OF AFRICA

                         (Draft Resolution)

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Chairperson, I move without notice:

That the House -

(1) notes that -

   (a)  more than 16 million people are facing starvation in the
       Ethiopia, Eritrea and Somalia region due to repeated crop
       failure and drought; and

   (b)  notes that children are the ones who suffer most from
       malnutrition, illness and disruption of family life; and

(2) calls on the South African Government to do all it can to contribute to the relief efforts in that region and urges countries and role- players involved in the continuing political conflict on the subcontinent to resolve this conflict peacefully.

[Applause.]

Agreed to.

   AMENDMENT OF RESOLUTION ADOPTING REPORT ON OPEN DEMOCRACY BILL

                         (Draft Resolution)

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Chairperson, I move the draft resolution printed in my name on the Order Paper, as follows: That, subject to the concurrence of the National Council of Provinces, the resolution of the House of 25 January 2000 adopting the Report of the Ad Hoc Joint Committee on Open Democracy Bill on the Open Democracy Bill [B 67 - 98] (Announcements, Tablings and Committee Reports, p 15) be amended as follows:

 That -


 (1)    the Report be adopted, except that -


     (a)     with reference to paragraph 7 of the Report, the
          Department of Justice and Constitutional Development report
          back to Parliament (rather than to ``the Committee'') on the
          feasibility of establishing an enforcement mechanism like the
          Information Commissioner; and

     (b)     with reference to paragraph 9 of the Report, the task of
          redrafting the chapter on whistle blower protection, which was
          omitted from the bill presented to the Houses by the ad hoc
          joint committee, be assigned to the National Assembly
          Portfolio Committee on Justice and Constitutional Development,
          the Committee to present the redrafted chapter as a separate
          bill; and


 (2)    the Ad Hoc Joint Committee on Open Democracy Bill is accordingly
     dissolved.

Agreed to.

DECISION OF QUESTION ON REPORT OF JOINT STANDING COMMITTEE ON INTELLIGENCE - APPOINTMENT OF INSPECTOR-GENERAL

AYES - 287: Abrahams, L A; Abrahams, T; Abram, S; Ainslie, A R; Arendse, J D; Asmal, A K; Bakker, D M; Baloi, G E; Baloyi, M R; Baloyi, S F; Bekker, H J; Belot, S T; Benjamin, J; Beukman, F; Bhengu, F; Bhengu, N R; Biyela, B P; Blaas, A; Bloem, D V; Booi, M S; Botha, N G W; Buthelezi, M G; Buthelezi, M N; Camerer, S M; Capa, R Z N; Carrim, Y I; Cassim, M F; Chalmers, J; Chiba, L; Chikane, M M; Cindi, N V; Coetzee-Kasper, M P; Cronin, J P; Cwele, S C; Davies, R H; De Beer, S J; De Lange, J H; De Lille, P; Diale, L N; Didiza, A T; Ditshetelo, P H K; Dlamini, B O; Doidge, G Q M; Douglas, B M; Dowry, J J; Duma, N M; Durand, J; Du Toit, D C; Dyani, M M Z; Ebrahim, E I; Fankomo, F C; Feinstein, A J; Ferreira, E T; Fihla, N B; Fraser-Moleketi, G J; Frolick, C T; Gandhi, E; Gaum, A H; Gcina, C I; Geldenhuys, B L; George, M E; Gerber, P-J A; Gigaba, K M N; Gogotya, N J; Gomomo, P J; Goniwe, T M; Goosen, A D; Gous, S J; Green, L M; Gumede, D M; Gxowa, N B; Hajaig, F; Hanekom, D A; Hangana, N E; Hendrickse, P A C; Hlengwa, M W; Hogan, B A; Holomisa, S P; Jana, D P S; Jassat, E E; Jeffery, J H; Joemat, R R; Jordan, Z P; Kalako, M U; Kannemeyer, B W; Kasienyane, O R; Kasrils, R; Kekana, N N; Kgarimetsa, J J; Kgauwe, Q J; Kgwele, L M; Koornhof, G W; Kota, Z A; Kotwal, Z; Landers, L T; Leeuw, S J; Lekgoro, M K; Lekgoro, M M S; Leshivha, T E; Lobe, M C; Lockey, D; Louw, J T; Louw, S K; Lucas, E J; Lyle, A G; Mabeta, M E; Madasa, Z L; Magashule, E S; Magazi, M N; Magwanishe, G; Mahlalela, C C; Mahlangu, G L; Mahlangu, M J; Maimane, D S; Makasi, X C; Makunyane, T L; Malebana, H F; Maloney, L; Maluleke-Hlaneki, C J; Malumise, M M; Manie, M S; Maphalala, M A; Mapisa-Nqakula, N N; Mars, I; Marshoff, F B; Martins, B A D; Masala, M M; Maserumule, F T; Mashimbye, J N; Masithela, N H; Mathebe, P M; Maunye, M M; Mayatula, S M; Maziya, A M; Mbadi, L M; Mbombo, N D; Mbongo, P F; Mbulawa-Hans, B G; Mbuyazi, L R; Mdladlana, M M S; Mfundisi, I S; Mgidi, J S; Mkhatshwa, S; Mkhize, B R; Mlangeni, A; Mnandi, P N; Mndende, O N; Mngomezulu, G P; Mnumzana, S K; Modisenyane, L J; Moeketse, K M; Mofokeng, T R; Mogoba, M S; Mohai, S J; Mohamed, I J; Mokoena, D A; Molebatsi, M A; Molewa, B G; Moloto, K A; Momberg, J H; Mongwaketse, S J; Moonsamy, K; Morkel, C M; Morobi, D M; Morwamoche, K W; Moss, M I; Mothoagae, P K; Mpahlwa, M; Mpaka, H M; Mpehle, M; Mpontshane, A M; Mshudulu, S A; Mthembu, B; Mtirara, N Z; Mtsweni, N S; Mufamadi, F S; Mulder, C P; Mutsila, I; Mzimela, S E; Mzizi, M A; Mzondeki, M J G; Naidoo, S; Nair, B; Nash, J H; Ncube, B; Ndabandaba, L B G; Ndlovu, V B; Ndou, R S; Nel, A C; Nene, N M; Newhoudt- Druchen, W S; Ngcengwane, N D; Ngculu, L V J; Ngubane, H; Ngubeni, J M; Ngwane, L B; Ngwenya, M L; Nhlanhla, J M; Nhleko, N P; Nhlengethwa, D G; Njobe, M A A; Nkomo, A S; Nkosi, D M; Nonkonyana, M; Nqakula, C; Nqodi, S B; Ntshangase, I B; Ntuli, B M; Ntuli, M B; Ntuli, S B; Nzimande, L P M; Odendaal, W A; Olckers, M E; Olifant, D A A; Oliphant, G G; Pahad, A G H; Phala, M J; Phantsi, N E; Pheko, S E M; Phohlela, S; Pieterse, R D; Pretorius, I J; Rabie, P J; Radebe, B A; Radebe, J T; Rajbally, S; Ramakaba-Lesiea, M M; Ramgobin, M; Ramodike, M N; Ramotsamai, C M P; Rasmeni, S M; Rhoda, R T; Ripinga, S S; Saloojee, E; Schneemann, G D; Schoeman, E A; Schoeman, R S; Scott, M I; Seaton, S A; Sekgobela, P S; September, C C; September, R K; Shilubana, T P; Shope, N R; Sigcau, S N; Sigwela, E M; Sikakane, M R; Simmons, S; Sithole, D J; Skhosana, W M; Skweyiya, Z S T; Slabbert, J H; Smith, V G; Solo, B M; Solomon, G; Sonjica, B P; Sotyu, M M; Southgate, R M; Thabethe, E; Tinto, B; Tolo, L J; Tsheole, N M; Tshivhase, T J; Turok, B; Twala, N M; Vadi, I; Van den Heever, R P Z; Van der Merwe, A S; Van der Merwe, J H; Van der Merwe, S C; Van Deventer, F J; Van Jaarsveld, A Z A; Van Schalkwyk, M C J; Van Wyk, A (Anna); Van Wyk, A (Annelizé); Van Wyk, J F; Van Wyk, N; Verwoerd, M; Vilakazi, B H; Viljoen, C L; Vos, S C; Xingwana, L M T; Yengeni, T S; Zita, L; Zondi, K M; Zondo, R P; Zuma, J G.

ABSTENTIONS - 31: Andrew, K M; Bell, B G; Borman, G M; Clelland, N J; Da Camara, M L; Davidson, I O; De Vos, P J; Delport, J T; Eglin, C W; Ellis, M J; Farrow, S B; Gibson, D H M; Grobler, G A J; Heine, R J; Lee, T D; Magubane, N E; Maluleke, D K; Mandela, N W; Moorcroft, E K; Ntuli, R S; Opperman, S E; Pillay, S; Schmidt, H C; Selfe, J; Seremane, W J; Sigabi, N B; Singh, A; Smuts, M; Swart, P S; Taljaard, R; Waters, M.

Report adopted in accordance with the Intelligence Services Control Act, 1994.

      INDEPENDENT COMMUNICATIONS AUTHORITY OF SOUTH AFRICA BILL

                       (Second Reading debate)

The MINISTER FOR PUBLIC ENTERPRISES: Chairperson, hon members, I take this opportunity to present the Bill introduced as the South African Communications Regulatory Authority Bill for debate in this House. This Bill provides for the establishment of the Independent Communications Authority of SA, and for the dissolution of the Independent Broadcasting Authority and the SA Telecommunications Regulatory Authority. This Bill transfers the powers, functions and obligations of the two former authorities and, in that vein, amends and repeals the provisions of the Independent Broadcasting Authority Act of 1993.

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order, hon members!

The MINISTER: Chairperson, I cannot speak while there is so much noise in this House.

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! Those members leaving the House should please do so quietly, without disturbing the House. I see a lot of members leaving the House and I do not know where they are going. [Interjections.] Order! Could we please give the Minister the opportunity to present the Bill. Over to you, hon Minister.

The MINISTER: Even though the Minister of Communications is not here she is with us in spirit. The Ministry of Communications has piloted this major Bill in order to start a process of harnessing the potential of technological revolution to benefit the citizens of South Africa.

In 1997, Cabinet considered the desirability of merging the two authorities and instructed the Ministry of Communications to start a process to realise this goal. Since then, the Ministry and the department have been involved in extensive consultation with the staff, councillors and the two authorities, the broadcasting and telecommunications sectors, the service providers and practitioners. The Ministry has also drawn on international experience in the form of research and secondment of experts to help in drawing up recommendations for a blueprint for the merged body. I therefore take this opportunity to congratulate the many industry experts, the staff and councillors of the regulatory bodies for the business-like manner they have displayed in contributing to the discussion on this Bill thus far. We also take particular note that in the hundreds of submissions to the Portfolio Committee on Communications that held public hearings on this Bill, not a single submission questioned the wisdom and the need for the bringing together of these two regulatory authorities.

It is apparent that the convergence of the broadcasting, telecommunications and information technology industries is urging us all to draw the inevitable conclusion that we should harmonise our regulatory structures, policies, regulations and approaches. It has also become apparent that putting together the two bodies will enable us to use the scarce resources we have in a cost-effective and judicious manner. The scarce technical human resources capital which we have maintained, duplicating regulatory efforts at the IBA and Satra, will now be brought together to focus on the challenges facing us in this globalising environment.

The parallel human resources development strategies will now be tailor-made to meet the changing realities of this converging sector. The establishment of the merged Independent Communications Authority of South Africa cannot wait any longer. The globalisation and convergence of the communications industries are taking place at great speed.

Large multinational corporations that lever networks and intellectual knowledge in global markets are increasing their market share at the expense of single-market media or communications firms. There is an emergence of multimedia conglomerates, through the biggest acquisitions and measures ever seen, to establish vertically integrated content generation, production, packaging, and distribution. These conglomerates are establishing a firm footing in publishing, broadcasting, the Internet, telephony and integrating video, data and voice applications to dominate world trade.

Technology, ever expanding at a greater pace, is enabling this consolidation and globalisation to affect every corner of the globe. Some have even termed this a ``super information highway’’. We must, of course, take stock of our position on this so-called super information highway. Will it be a purveyor of our culture, our language, our democratic values and ethos or a highway to a global trap, imposing other people’s dreams, aspirations and cultures?

The kind of regulatory environment we create will help to shape the South African communications sector to answer these critical questions. The merger of the IBA and Satra, the establishment of the new communications authority, is a first step. It is a very important first step towards the harnessing of the technological innovations and applications to improve the quality of life of all South Africans and to place at their disposal modern means for their integration into the mainstream of the economy.

There are South Africans who have never picked up a telephone and dialled their next of kin. Because of the legacy of apartheid misrule before 1994 and despite the advances since 1994, the majority of South Africans do not have telephone services in their residences, within walking distance or, for the majority in the rural areas, even within driving distance if they have cars.

While the rest of the world is increasingly integrating into one village, there are South Africans who have never been near a computer and a significant number who have never even watched television. Needless to say, these South Africans do not have access to the economic levers. They are cut off from the social and political developments that continue to shape our destiny. These compatriots lack the basic services that will deliver education, entertainment, information, health and many other social services to them. This is the reality that we must face and conquer as we redesign our communications infrastructure and redirect services to prioritise both the poorest of the poor and those who are economically well off.

I have said that this Bill, merging the regulatory authorities, is a very important first step. More steps will follow to harmonise the policy and regulatory approaches in order for us to create a climate that is conducive to the rollout of converged communications services to the remotest of the remote areas of South Africa. These initiatives will focus on the policy and regulatory environments that will help foster investment in the communications sector and allow for the introduction of more competition and a diversity of players to offer a choice of services, accessibility to all South Africans and fair pricing for consumers.

In supporting this Bill, hon members are contributing a building block to the construction of a knowledge-based society that is globally competitive. They are contributing to the emergence of a communications sector that will support competitive South African firms with attendant benefits of employment, skills development and economic growth.

In conclusion, let me say that this is a Bill that builds on earlier achievements to help ensure the development of conditions conducive to the freedom of expression of South Africans. It establishes a regulatory framework to foster and develop South African networks and content that are reflective of South African experiences and South African cultures. This Bill enjoys the support of the entire communications sector. This is a Bill that deserves the wholehearted support of hon members. [Applause.]

Mr N N KEKANA: Chairperson:

Dazzled by so many and such marvellous inventions, the people of Macondo did not know where their amazement began.

This is how Gabriel García Márquez, in his book One Hundred Years of Solitude described the superstitions, rumours and frustration associated with the introduction of new technologies.

He went further to describe how new and advanced services, including a telephone installed at a railway station, were keeping the inhabitants of this town called Macondo in, I quote -

… a permanent alternation between excitement and disappointment, doubt and revelation, to such extreme that no one knew for certain where the limits of reality lay.

As we pass this Bill to merge the IBA and Satra, speculation, doubt, rumours, mudslinging and dirty tricks surround the licensing of the third cellular provider. There has been a stew of truths, deceptions and lies. Let us repeat for those who have ears to listen. There is no political interference from Government or Parliament on the decision to award the third cellular licence. Parliament and Government have taken steps to safeguard the process from collapsing after the infighting and irresponsible behaviour within the council of Satra.

Despite these steps taken, rumours, mainly instigated from one source, continue. We would like to appeal to all the bidders in this process to desist from unbecoming behaviour and to let the process continue. There are six bidders and there will only be one winner. While the courts are a legitimate platform from which to demand administrative justice and fairness, dirty tricks and mudslinging in the media damage the image of the country. This speculative behaviour undermines investor confidence and creates uncertainty.

Today we are creating a single regulatory body that will regulate our communications industry. The communications industry is the third largest sector in the global economy after health and banking. We have experienced, on a global scale, a movement of shares and unprecedented measures of telecommunications and media broadcasting companies. The convergence of voice and data will certainly make the world a better place. What we need, on an international scale, is a common legal framework. Our Bill is a step in the right direction to ensure the compatibility of our legislation to the best internationally. People across the globe are being connected anywhere at any time. The same phenomenon is taking place in our country. The Internet and other advanced technologies are offering an open and democratic communication platform for recent history. This Bill will put our country on a competitive edge and create a common regime to regulate this fast-changing sector.

The new regulator must increase the pace of expanding and upgrading the provision of services, while meeting the needs for universal service and affordability. The new regulator must provide courtesy and helpfulness, including satisfaction with the quality of service provided to all industry players, including the public. The portfolio committee will demand, on a regular basis, programme performance reports to evaluate the council’s achievement of statutory objectives, as written in legislation.

The new regulator will operate on a budget of nearly R100 million, and we have reduced expenditure on the salaries of councillors from at least R8 million per annum to nearly R4 million. More money will be spent on improving the administration and the remuneration of staff.

We have also protected the new regulator from regulatory capture by the industry. We have written, in the Bill, that the authority must function without any political or commercial interference. We call on the industry to stick to the letter of the law and to avoid tempting the new councillors with millions of rands in their back pockets. We could not leave this matter to chance. There is a new clause in the law that states that a councillor will be fined an amount of R250 000 or face imprisonment of up to 5 years or both if that councillor is involved in a conflict of interest. This is a deterrent clause that will certainly discourage councillors from being involved in any conflict of interest.

The portfolio committee would like to thank all the stakeholders who participated in the process to consider, discuss and amend the Bill to merge the Satra and IBA councils. We have spent a total of 40 hours on this Bill and the improvement is a proud product of all parties. I would like to thank, on behalf of the committee, members of the committee section and the state law advisers for a sterling job in dealing with the contents of this Bill.

We had to meet tight deadlines, and we should all be thankful that we are able to pass this Bill today. The National Assembly will call for public nominations and interview potential councillors by the end of May, and a new council should be in office before 23 June 2000. We have introduced new things in this Bill, and our committee members are surely going to discuss them at length. We have included formulations that will address some of the concerns and will build on the lessons learned from the six years of the old regulators’ existence.

Today is, indeed, an historic day for the regulation of the broadcasting and telecommunications industry. The founding fathers and mothers of our constitutional dispensation first mooted the creation a single regulator for both telecommunications and broadcasting at the Kempton Park negotiations in the 1992-93 negotiation sessions. We are, today, finally achieving those objectives. [Applause.]

Ms M SMUTS: Chair, few things could demonstrate the need for a truly independent telecommunications regulator as spectacularly as the current events surrounding the third cellular licence. I suppose this accounts for the absence of the relevant Minister and also for the decision in the Pretoria High Court today in favour of Nextcom’s application for an interdict, which will hopefully bring sanity and justice to the licensing process. We greet that decision with some relief. [Applause.]

It seems the hon the Minister for Public Enterprises is becoming the ANC’s media Minister, one must conclude. May I offer the hon the Minister some advice since I have the unexpected pleasure of seeing him here today. I want to say to the hon the Minister that he must never allow his byline or name to be put on material written by someone else. I am quite sure that the hon the Minister did not write the ANC’s submission to the HRC as part of its racism inquiry, but the hon the Minister now runs the risk of being prominently prosecuted, along with the ANC, for false evidence before the HRC and, in addition, the risk of being sued for defamation by the editor of the Mail & Guardian, after claiming that the said editor used Lizeka Mda’s byline on a piece that he wrote. [Interjections.] It is not Philip van Niekerk’s style to hide behind women’s skirts … [Interjections] … and the ANC’s crazed allegation also professionally insults the extremely incisive Ms Mda. [Interjections.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! Hon member, order! Mr A C NEL: Chairperson, on a point of order: What could the relevance of this possibly be to the debate in question? [Interjections.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! Hon Smuts, can you come to the Bill please, and debate the matter.

Ms M SMUTS: I am about to come to the Bill, sir. [Interjections.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! Just come to the Bill straightaway.

Ms M SMUTS: The relevance, of course, sir, is the intimate involvement of the ANC in all forms of communication and media. [Interjections.]

This Bill is, in fact, precisely about keeping Government out of broadcasting and telecommunications regulation. Last year the big fight was about the independence of the broadcasting regulator, the IBA. The Broadcasting Bill of 1999 tried to give the hon the Minister powers of intervention exactly comparable to those enjoyed under the Telecommunications Act. My friend the hon Suzanne Vos and I could not persuade a stubborn ANC and a department determined to control all. We could not persuade them that they could not flout section 192 of the Constitution, that is the Chapter 9 section that requires an independent authority to regulate broadcasting in the public interest.

Therefore the two of us raised money, briefed counsel and petitioned the former President, Mr Mandela. Mr Mandela sent the Bill back to Parliament where the ANC was forced to amend the offending ministerial policy directive powers to the point where they could scrape by on a constitutionality test. I stress here that the hon the Minister ought not to have such powers at all in respect of broadcasting, which is a free- speech issue, while, interestingly, one could say that the case for such powers in respect of telecommunications is crumbling away day by day, every time a new ``.com’’ is invented by a teenager.

We are very pleased with our new Minister. Unlike her predecessor, who wished, in fact, to repeal that section from the Constitution, she tabled a Bill which respects our Constitution. All members of the committee have put in a great deal of work to give proper effect to the independence required by the Constitution.

We have made many amendments and produced a Bill which we, as the DP, can very cheerfully support. It does the right things in respect of independence. We added the one caveat, but the real test will come in the second half of this year when we amend the underlying statutes, the Telecommunications Act, the Broadcasting Act and the Independent Broadcasting Authority Act, which, in fact, constitute the subject matter of what our new regulator, the Independent Communications Authority of South Africa, will be regulating.

It is an excellent start, and I want to appeal to our ANC colleagues: Let us now appoint the right people. We cannot again go through what we have just gone through. [Applause.] [Time expired.]

Ms S C VOS: Chairperson, the problem with this Bill is not what is in the Bill, but what is not in the Bill. The IFP’s decision to support the Bill must be seen in the context that, on the surface, all seems well. Dig a little deeper and all is not well and our reservations are hereby noted.

The IFP totally agrees that technological and other developments in the fields of broadcasting and telecommunications are causing rapid convergence and one body to regulate both is desirable. Much in this Bill is good. Sections relating to conflict of interest, as pointed out by our hon chairperson, are excellent. They are outstanding.

The trouble is that underlying elements of this Bill fly in the face of IFP policy. No matter the argument that consolidating legislation will follow - we do not know when, they say later this year - with regard to underlying statutes, the reality remains that this Bill perpetuates the system where Government does not regulate the telecommunications industry, but licences it. In many ways, this authority will be a toy telephone of the Government. It most certainly, in our opinion, will find it extremely difficult to operate independently of Government, as is its noble intention.

The purpose of sections of underlying statutes, the Telecommunications Act in particular, which the IFP attempted to have amended or repealed, is to prohibit the access of all except those who, by virtue of Government concession or licensing magnanimity, are allowed to come in. This produces a slow down of the market dynamics of technological advancement and increases costs to consumers, because there is little or no competition.

This Bill directly links to what comes out of our wallets. Every time we use our Internet or make a phone call, we pay what I consider to be the highest fixed-line and cellular telephone rates in the world, and this Bill is not going to help matters one little bit. Consider what we pay here per second for every Telkom telephone call after initial basic charges, and then ask why in Australia, for instance - which also has huge rollout requirements to vast underserviced rural areas - consumers there can choose between two service providers and have untimed calls for a flat fee, anything from 15 cents to 22 cents, depending on the distances involved.

Can one imagine South Africans being offered a package called ``unlimited local calls’’, for which Australians pay a flat monthly fee of $35, about R200? Can one imagine the joy if we had that? That is what this Bill should be about: helping the ripped-off South African consumers; helping South Africans to afford to link themselves to technology. It is bizarre that the majority of South Africans cannot afford to use the Internet.

The IFP wants regulation to open up the telecommunications industry. It wants an independent regulator to ensure space for all comers and to wisely adjudicate conflict. This new authority has its hands tied behind its back by its underlying statutes, in particular the Telecommunications Act and the Broadcasting Act, which give the Government inordinate power over policy-making and the licensing of operators.

Another problem the IFP has with this Bill is that the ANC would not consider ways in which the authority could have alternate sources of funding, in addition to money appropriated from Parliament, in an attempt to ensure its financial independence and viability. Pleas from numerous quarters were ignored. The committee has heard from the IBA and Satra of their problems relating to insufficient funding. Both said that they cannot fulfil their statutory mandates, and both have indicated their disquiet at being at the mercy of the powers of the purse exercised by the department. Again this hints at Government’s intention to keep an iron grip on the regulator. The IFP has decided to make these political points, because the end product of this Bill - the lacunae, the deficiencies and the shortcomings - is a technological impairment of the country. Finally, we are equally concerned about broadcasting not being given specific leadership in the form of a deputy chairperson, or a proverbial rose by any other name, within the authority. There is a very real possibility that telecommunications will swamp the broadcasting component of the authority, and again the ANC would not concede to IFP pleas to increase the number of councillors to ensure that this industry, too, is sufficiently catered for.

The IFP does not believe that the human and economic resources of the authority will be able to drive the kind of hands-on work required with regard to demanding and monitoring local content in particular, and the development of our local producers, directors, writers and actors from all of our broadcasters. We wonder, too, whether the mandated satellite broadcast inquiry will ever see the light of day. As the saying goes, the devil is in the detail, and it is the lack of some critical detail that bedevils this Bill.   Mnr J J DOWRY: Mnr die Voorsitter, die oogmerk van hierdie wetsontwerp is om ‘n onafhanklike owerheid in te stel om die uitsaai- en telekommunikasiewese in die openbare belang te reguleer.

Dit was juis hierdie onafhanklikheid van die liggaam waaroor die bedryf in die verhoorfase sy kommer uitgespreek het. Die onafhanklikheid van veral die uitsaaiowerheid is in ons land van kardinale belang. Dit is waarom die opposisie hipersensitief is oor die onafhanklikheid van die liggaam, sodat staatsmisbruik en politieke inmengery nie toegelaat sal word nie.

Telekommunikasie is ‘n magtige instrument vir demokrasie. Daarom is dit noodsaaklik dat die liggaam vry moet wees van politieke manipulasie sodat dit nie in diens staan van ‘n sekere politieke ideologie nie. Die Nuwe NP is daarom gelukkig en bly dat gehoor gegee is aan artikel 192 van die Grondwet om die liggaam ‘n onafhanklike owerheid te maak. Ons wil egter waarsku dat onafhanklikheid in naam alleen nie onafhanklikheid waarborg nie. Dit is nie die proses wat die toets is nie, maar die resultaat van die proses. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)

[Mr J J DOWRY: Mr Chairperson, the aim of this Bill is to establish an independent body to regulate broadcasting and telecommunications in the public interest.

It was precisely this independence of the body about which the industry expressed its concern during the trial phase. The independence of especially the broadcasting authority in our country is of the utmost importance. That is why the opposition is extremely sensitive about the independence of the body, in order to prevent state misuse and political interference.

Telecommunication is a powerful instrument for democracy. Therefore it is necessary that the body must be free of political manipulation, in order for it not to be in the employ of a certain political ideology. That is why the New NP is happy and glad to hear that section 192 of the Constitution was adhered to, according to which the body will be an independent authority. However, we want to warn that independence in name alone does not guarantee independence. It is not the process that is the test, but the result of the process.]

Another area where the independence of the authority is at stake is in its funding. A suggestion from the industry is that the authority should be financed from private sources such as licensing fees and by charging licensees a service charge. We feel, together with Multichoice, that to charge the licensees even more money would just lead to an increase for consumers which would not be in their interests.

Besides, the combined moneys derived from the fees currently charged to broadcasting and telecommunications licensees are already beyond the financial requirements of the merged body. We in the New NP would like to see the independence of the authority strengthened further by their being allowed to receive the licence fees. In this way they would then also be independent of Government funds.

The New NP is very concerned about the fact that only seven councillors will be appointed to this new merged authority. We feel that they will not be able to cope with the workload of both broadcasting and telecommunications. The IBA and Satra had a minimum of 12 councillors between them, and they could not cope with the workload. How do we expect fewer councillors to do a more effective job?

The New NP would have liked to have seen at least nine councillors and, apart from a chairperson, a vice chairperson appointed with broadcasting as his sole responsibility. As most of the service delivery lies in telecommunications, we feel that an authority with only seven councillors will concentrate more on telecommunications at the expense of broadcasting. That will be detrimental to democracy in our country.

Die Nuwe NP is tevrede dat die owerheid verplig is om ‘n jaarverslag aan die Parlement voor te lê. Ons het kennis geneem van die gevoel dat die verslag nie aan die Minister gegee moet word nie, maar direk aan die Nasionale Vergadering. Dié standpunt is egter problematies: die verslag kan net deur ‘n lid van die Parlement ter tafel gelê word, en dit is in dié geval die Minister. Op die wyse word die Minister ook verantwoordbaar aan die Parlement, en kan lede vrae aan die Minister stel om onsekerhede op te klaar.

Die Minister moet egter nie om enige onbenullige rede verslae eis en aanvra soos dit haar pas nie, want dán sal die onafhanklikheid van die owerheid ook in gedrang kom. Ons wil die voorsitter van die komitee, mnr Nat Kekana, ook bedank vir die bekwame en deursigtige wyse waarop hy die debat in die komitee toegelaat het sodat almal hulle sê kon sê.

Die wetsontwerp bevat volgens ons sekere tekortkominge, maar ook baie positiewe aspekte. Daarom steun die Nuwe NP die wetsontwerp. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)

[The New NP is satisfied that the authority is compelled to submit an annual report to Parliament. We have taken cognisance of the feeling that the report should not be given to the Minister, but directly to the National Assembly. However, this point of view is problematic: the report can only be tabled by a member of Parliament, in this instance the Minister. In this way the Minister is also made accountable to Parliament, and members can put questions to the Minister to clear up uncertainties.

However, the Minister must not, for some insignificant reason, demand reports when it suits her, because then the independence of the authority will also be jeopardised. We also want to thank the chairperson of the committee, Mr Nat Kekana, for the very able and transparent manner in which he allowed the debate in the committee, so that everyone could have their say.

In our opinion the Bill has certain shortcomings, but many positive aspects too. That is why the New NP supports the Bill.]

Mr S ABRAM: Chairperson, if one looks back at the history of communications in our country, then one is reminded of our childhood days when we grew up on the outskirts of towns and cities.

‘n AGB LID: Dit was lank gelede.

Mnr S ABRAM: Ja, baie lank gelede. Toe het ‘n mens nog die ou metode gehad waar jy die slinger moes draai, en dan antwoord die operateur aan die ander kant, en hy vra vir jou: Nommer asseblief?'' As hy ons stem gehoor het, dan het daardie operateur altyd gesê:Maar, koelie, jy pla nou weer.’’

Ek onthou nog die dae toe ons in die poskantoor ingestap het om posseëls te koop sodat ons kon kommunikeer. Die amptenaar agter die toonbank het dan vir jou gesê: Ja, aap, wat soek jy nou weer?'' Die antwoord wat ons behoort te gegee het, was:Ons het kom kyk na die bobbejaan wat agter die toonbank staan’’! [Gelag.] (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)

[An HON MEMBER: That was long ago.

Mr S ABRAM: Yes, very long ago. In those days one still had the old method where one had to turn a handle, and then the operator answered at the other end, and he asked one: Number please?'' The moment he heard one's voice, that operator always said:But, Coolie, you are being a nuisance again.’’

I still remember the days when we used to enter the post office to buy stamps so that we could communicate. The official behind the counter then asked one: Yes, monkey, what do you want now?'' The answer we should have given was:We have come to look at the baboon standing behind the counter’’! [Laughter.]]

That was just a bit of humour about days gone by.

Just as telecommunications in this country has developed to the stage where we are now, so too will legislation, from time to time, have to be reviewed in order to bring it in line with the requirements of the day.

I must congratulate the chairperson of the portfolio committee, who had an open mind and allowed representations and members to make their contributions. I want to hurriedly say that I had a very small part in this particular portfolio committee, because of other pressing duties.

However, if I remember correctly, there are no fewer than 65 amendments, which include about six new clauses. If I look back at my previous stint in Parliament, I remember that one hardly got an amendment through or a new clause inserted unless a Minister gave his approval. To that extent, I must say that the process, to my mind, was an extremely satisfactory one.

I have very little time left. In the little time that I have, I want to dwell on the issue of the constitution of this new authority. From the experience that we have picked up in regard to the allegations that are being bandied about and thrown to and fro, particularly the ones relating to the chairperson of the current SA Telecommunication and Regulatory Authority, I believe that a process will have to be put in motion to see to it that a repetition of what we are going through currently is avoided.

Over and above that, the portfolio committee, as an oversight body, will have to play a dominant role. There should be no state interference whatsoever in the nomination process, because of the results that we are seeing concerning what is happening.

May I add that the name of this particular authority has been changed. If one looks at the original Bill, one sees that it was supposed to be the SA Communications Regulatory Authority, but it is now the Independent Communications Authority of South Africa. It should be independent and its independence maintained. There should be no interference of any other outside sources or parties in its independence. The UDM will support the Bill. [Time expired.]

Nkszn N S MTSWENI: Mhlali ngaphambili, abanye abantu bangaku rara ngokuthi bafike lapha bapharume ingathi ziingrhwarhwa bazenze abantu abanganabo aboma bona kude ekhaya. Umuntu uthi nakafika la afune bonyana sikwakwazele. Asizoku kwakwazelela litho thina. (Translation of Ndebele paragraph follows.)

[Ms N S MTSWENI: Chairperson, one is astounded by people who come here and jump up and down like frogs and behave as if they do not have televisions at home. When they come here, they want us to sing their praises. We will not do so.]

Chairperson, hon Ministers, hon members, ladies and gentlemen, I rise to support the Bill, which shares the vision of our President when he speaks about the African renaissance. We are on course, a course which has been outlined in the ANC manifesto for the next five years, viz to create a better a life for all. This Bill forms part of the building blocks of that programme. We appreciate the contribution made by the industry and other role players. Unfortunately, we could not accommodate all of the amendments that were suggested.

Clause 2 of Chapter I discusses the object of this Bill, which is to establish an independent regulatory authority by dissolving the Independent Broadcasting Authority and SA Telecommunications Regulatory Authority. Clauses 3 and 4 of Chapter II discuss the formation and functions of such a body. Its functions are to perform the duties previously performed by the authorities, and to exercise their powers. This function is subject to section 231 of the Constitution and the Public Finance Management Act.

Clause 5 of this Bill deals with the composition and the appointment of councillors to the council. The deliberations in the committee, as other parties and the chairperson have said, were rather tough. Opposition parties and some members of the industry raised concerns about the number of councillors provided for in the Bill. The SABC was of the opinion that no fewer than five and no more than seven councillors, as suggested in the Bill, is inadequate.

The ANC never made an issue about the size of the council. Our argument is that a lean structure will be more effective, efficient, coherent and focused, and will be able to take decisive decisions. As such, we suggested seven councillors as a fixed number, to accommodate everybody, especially the DP. Seven councillors and a strong, proficient support staff, as well as the establishment of committees, will form part of an administration which should be able to cope adequately and professionally with carrying out the functions of the council.

The President must appoint one of the seven councillors as chairperson, and it is not necessary to have two deputies, as suggested by the opposition. What the council needs is a chairperson who is able to lead, to unite and to guide the council; a person who will ensure that decisions are taken by the council; a person who will respect the delegation of powers and not abuse them.

The new council must avoid the delegation of powers to councillors unnecessarily. This has happened before and we urge the new council to learn from mistakes made in the past. These were the guidelines we used when we urged for a strong leader, as opposed to having two deputies. We are looking for councillors with the necessary qualifications, which are overlapping and competitive.

Clause 6 deals with disqualification. We are all aware that if one is not a citizen of South Africa, one is not eligible for consideration to serve on the council. Clause 7 deals with the terms of office. The council must, at its first meeting, designate three councillors to hold office for at least two years. This will be determined by clause 7(1)(b) of the Bill. The remaining members will hold office for four years.

The President may, at any time, suspend a councillor from office on account of misconduct, absenteeism and failure to perform the duties of his or her office or failure to disclose information after an inquiry. A councillor found guilty may be removed from office, upon the adoption by the National Assembly of the resolution calling for that councillor’s removal. The chairperson and other councillors will be paid such remuneration and allowances and be entitled to such benefits as the Minister may determine, in concurrence with the Minister of Finance.

In conclusion, I want to thank the Minister, the director-general for allowing his staff to participate throughout the process, members of the media, especially Ms Mokoena and her crew; members of the industry who attended as observers; and the chairperson and members of the committee. The ANC supports this Bill. [Applause.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! Hon members, the following member will be delivering his maiden speech. [Applause.]

Mr V C GORE: Mr Chairman and hon members, the barriers that created separate worlds of voice, data and television are crumbling. A new information network is being created in their place. In this new world a multitude of services and access are available from individual carriers and service providers.

The fundamental way in which digital communications are being created is changing demand characteristics for communication infrastructures through altering one to one specificity between services and infrastructures. Broadcasting networks have been used in the past specifically for content, and the PSTN or Public Switched Telecommunications Network mainly for voice. Technology is creating the impetus to transform infrastructures, so that they can handle a range of services and applications. This transformation in network services will result in them becoming the building blocks of the market economy and economic structures.

The Independent Communications Authority of South Africa is a first step in this process. It takes Satra, the telephones in simple terms, and the IBA, the broadcasters, and places their regulation under one body, Icasa. We have now begun the path toward full digitisation and the new economy. However, allow me to caution these remarks with the following: Without efficient, high quality communications, the South African industry, and in particular the SMMEs, face a major disadvantage in relation to the international global competitors.

The speed of technological development over the last 10 years has led to the emergence of the information society and the convergence of the telecommunications, media and information technology sectors. As a result, the new information technologies will play an ever-increasing role with respect to the competitiveness of the South African economy as a whole.

The objective of any regulatory and legislative framework is to give the citizens of South Africa a world-class communications infrastructure, delivering the best for business and consumers in terms of low prices, highest quality, maximum value for money and, of course, universal access. Levels of communication infrastructures closely link regulatory and policy frameworks presently in place, which influence communication and investment decision. As such, the regulation can have an impact on the growth and diffusion of the new information economy. South Africa is falling behind. Our needs are, indeed, great. We can play catch-up for the next 20 years without any real guarantee that we will catch up, or we can leap-frog, using technology and a sound regulatory environment.

What will happen when Telkom’s exclusivity period runs out? Will we have another major operator - a duopoly - or will we open the doors for competition and deregulation? Technological convergence in the context of service digitalisation as providing a unique opportunity to facilitate the development of communications by allowing all infrastructures to provide any type of service.

Convergence has made less distinguishable the traditionally defined industry boundaries within the communications sector. There is, indeed, a wide recognition of the reality of the convergence process at the level of both technology and network infrastructures, but this does not mean that vonvergence of both markets and services will automatically follow. The question of how to ensure a balanced horizontal approach to regulation, as well as the issue of ensuring access to networks and digital gateways in a converging environment, therefore remain to be answered.

The common format that digitalisation provides implies that digital services need no longer be tied to specific platforms for delivery. [Time expired.] [Applause.]

Mr L M GREEN: Chairperson, hon members, the ACDP agrees that convergence in the telecommunications and broadcasting industries does indeed require the merging of the IBA and Satra, and for this reason we welcome and support the Independent Communications Authority of South Africa Bill. The ACDP believes that the best regulatory environment is one which is constitutional, fair, certain and in line with global trends, especially the trend of an independent, unbiased regulatory authority.

Clause 3(1) of this Bill establishes the broadcasting authority contemplated in section 192 of the Constitution, which says the following:

National legislation must establish an independent authority to regulate broadcasting in the public interest, and to ensure fairness and a diversity of views broadly representing South African society.

The constitutional guarantee of the independent regulation of the media is crucial if we want to ensure the continued existence of freedom of speech in our country. However, constitutional guarantees are not enough. We also need a vigilant civil society which should ensure that the broadcasting regulatory authority remains independent and politically unbiased.

As far as the powers and functions of Satra are concerned, the new regulatory body may find it exceptionally difficult to regulate the two areas of broadcasting and telecommunications in the context of technological convergence where the fundamental nature of the new body, that is the council of the authority, is not clearly defined, especially with regard to its independence. If the proposed merger of the IBA and Satra is to proceed with less difficulty, it is essential that in respect of its telecommunications functions, the new authority must have the same level of independence and impartiality as is required to exist in respect of its broadcasting functions. If the authority is mandated in terms of clause 4(1)(a) to ``perform the duties imposed upon the former authorities by or under the underlying statutes’’, how does one ensure that this is done without sacrificing the independence which the IBA currently enjoys under the Independent Broadcasting Authority Act?

The Telecommunications Act currently provides that Satra, on the one hand, must perform its functions in accordance with the policy direction issued by the Minister. On the other hand, the Independent Broadcasting Authority Act provides that the IBA need only consider any policy direction issued by the Minister when performing its functions, and further, that no policy direction may be issued which interferes with the independence of the IBA. The two provisions are clearly irreconcilable.

Clause 4(1)(a) and (b) does not resolve this inconsistency. It merely postpones this dilemma until after the merger of the IBA and Satra, and we will have to assess the nature of the independence and impartiality of the new authority by virtue of its performance. It is not desirable for the legislature to leave any legislative lacunae in a Bill as important as this one. As a committee we might have to make more amendments to this Bill and other communications Acts after the merger has taken place.

Orbicom, in its submission to the portfolio committee, has suggested a possible solution to the problem by recommending the establishment of separate directorates or subcommittees for the regulation of broadcasting and telecommunications. This is possible in terms of the powers given to the new council in terms of clause 17(1).

The motivation given by Orbicom for the establishment of two separate directorates is reasonable and suggests the way forward as follows:

This position is motivated both by important legal and practical concerns based on our present experience. The respective areas of broadcasting and telecommunications have developed into highly complex activities requiring specific expertise, both in relation to the differential regulatory framework of the respective underlying statutes, as well as the rapidly developing technological changes. This approach appears to be consistent with the finding and conclusions contained in the recently commissioned report by Allan Darling, the former Secretary-General of the Canadian Radio-Television and Telecommunications Commissions, who says:

``Understanding the impact of convergence forces does not diminish the need for separate regulation of broadcasting and telecommunications. A merged regulatory organisation benefits from being able to understand the character and the consequences of convergence, but must still devote the overwhelming part of its resources to day-to-day regulation of the respective sectors.’’

In conclusion, let me also remind the new council of its important obligation towards community radio stations. Of late I have received several very serious complaints from Christian community radio stations, such as Radio Kingfisher of PE and Link FM of East London, of procedurally unfair treatment by the IBA. Radio Kingfisher writes:

Radio Kingfisher is going to take the IBA on review. I personally do not think that we have a choice. Once we have the IBA’s ruling we will apply to the Supreme Court for an interdict to allow the IBA to grant us a temporary licence to continue broadcasting until our appeal has been heard. Link FM is planning similar legal action.

The ACDP is of the view that the intended action by these community radio stations is legitimate, and that the courts should rule whether the IBA has acted procedurally and in an administratively fair way. The Christian community radio stations have been operating for several years and have a legitimate expectation to be granted a full year’s licence.

We trust that the new authority will be giving urgent attention to this matter.

Mr G E BALOI: Chair, this Bill aims to provide for the establishment of the Independent Communications Authority of South Africa; to provide for the dissolution of the Independent Broadcasting Authority and the SA Telecommunications Regulatory Authority; to transfer the functions of the latter authorities to the Independent Communications Authority of South Africa; to amend the Independent Broadcasting Authority Act, Act 153 of 1993, the Telecommunications Act, Act 103 of 1996, and the Broadcasting Act, Act 4 of 1999; and to provide for matters connected therewith.

We have to recognise that technology and the other developments in the fields of broadcasting and telecommunications are causing a rapid convergence of these fields. We also have to bear in mind that there is a need to establish a regulatory body to regulate broadcasting and communications. Therefore it is the duty of this Parliament to see to it that this is done correctly.

Lastly, allow me to congratulate the Minister of Communications and her department on bringing all those authorities under one authority. My plea to the Minister is on behalf of thousands of South Africans who were mostly disadvantaged and are still marginalised in the rural areas, more especially in the far North West. They do not have SABC channels 2 and 3, or etv. I plead with the Minister to ask the authority concerned to open up those channels. The licence fee is the same across the board. The UCDP supports and upholds the efforts they make.

Miss S RAJBALLY: Chair, the main objective of the Independent Communications Authority of South Africa Bill is to transform broadcasting and telecommunications into an entity that would reflect the diverse needs of the entire population. Telecommunications and broadcasting in South Africa have entered the global communications society. Therefore the proposal that the authority act through a council highlights the Government’s responsibility to commit itself to openness and accountability, and the need to uphold the Constitution. The council, under the guidance of a policy and legislative framework, must work in partnership with the participating Government organs and expertise to co-ordinate some management planning and a regulatory system.

The goal of the council must be to set and harness priorities to develop the telecommunications and broadcasting industry, so that universal access and service can be delivered to the people. The MF supports the Independent Communications Authority of South Africa Bill and welcomes the promotion, empowerment and advancement of women in the broadcasting service. [Applause.]

Mr E S MAGASHULE: Chairperson, I think the Independent Broadcasting Authority Act of 1993 and the South African Telecommunications Regulatory Authority Act of 1996 established two separate regulatory authorities for the broadcasting and telecommunications fields. These Acts vested these two authorities with independent powers to regulate the two areas in the public interest. I am sure the question of independence which is being raised by the DP here because the opposition parties do not correctly understand what independence is all about. [Interjections.] There is no way in which they can understand the word ``independence’’ because it never existed in their vocabulary. [Interjections.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order!

Mr S E MAGASHULE: Chairperson, the Constitution, in Chapter 9 where it deals with these constitutional organs, clearly says that these organs are state organs. [Interjections.] Therefore the South African Constitution at present introduces and regulates the framework for broadcasting and telecommunications, which involves the executive, Parliament and the courts in a scheme of shared responsibility. This is usual in most democratic countries, but what differs from country to country is the balance in the relationship.

The question of the court action and decision today is therefore not a surprise, because this Parliament outlines the law to be administered. The Minister and the regulator share responsibility for executive action that needs to be taken to give effect to the law, and the judiciary provides final certainty, where necessary about the interpretation and meaning of the law. I can tell the hon Dene Smuts that this is clearly outlined in the White Paper. [Interjections.]

The Minister, as the representative of the executive, observes the powers, duties, responsibilities and obligations imposed by Parliament and the Constitution. Bodies such as the IBA and Satra shall report to Parliament through the Minister, as is the case at present. [Interjections.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order!

Mr E S MAGASHULE: Chairperson, in conclusion, the question of alternate sources of funding has not been an issue in the committee. What we have actually discussed is that we need to engage further on this matter, because, for instance, this organ cannot be treated differently from all other constitutional organs as outlined in Chapter 9 of the Constitution. It should actually be treated like all other organs. We have said that we must further debate and engage around this question.

There is misunderstanding concerning the matter of political interference, because the opposition thinks that when the Minister is involved, as clearly outlined in the policy document, that is interference. We have said there is no way anybody can come and account to Parliament, even in terms of the annual report. Those bodies have to submit their annual reports through the Minister and the Minister has to submit them to Parliament.

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! The level of noise is very high. Can we please give the member time to debate the issues at the podium. Listen to the debate - it is very crucial. Please continue, hon member.

Mr E S MAGASHULE: On the question of the number of members of the council, we want to say that, although the DP and the minority parties always want to set the pace and determine the agenda for the ANC, that cannot happen, and I do not think it will ever happen. The pace and the tempo of changes in this country shall always be determined by the party voted for by the masses of our people. [Interjections.] [Applause.] We have said that we need a lean effective structure. The fact that we have a council consisting of seven members is actually complemented by the fact that the council shall have powers to appoint committees which will have people with the necessary expertise. Some of these resources shall then be given to these experts who will be involved in this particular case. So the question of the numbers is not an issue, because we have said that, even in terms of making sure that quick decision-making takes place, one needs this type of structure, and there is certainly no way that we will listen to the minority parties.

The ANC-led Government is indeed on course, as the President says. It is on course because it is able to develop effective partnerships with civil society. It is on course because it has the potential, the political will and decisive leadership. It clearly understands the constraints and the opportunities globally and it has a clear vision and priorities based on what is desirable and feasible.

In conclusion, together with the vast majority of the people of South Africa, we shall continue to march, achieving one victory after another, with or without the minority parties. [Applause.] The MINISTER FOR PUBLIC ENTERPRISES: Mr Chairperson, hon members, it is very clear that what we said earlier on, namely that this Bill enjoys the support of the entire communications sector, is also the case with this august body. I therefore want to take this opportunity to urge this Parliament to speedily finish enacting this Bill so that we can move on to the important task of establishing this independent communications authority.

We also need to move with speed so that we can provide certainty to the whole of the communications sector. I also urge this honourable House in particular to ignore the ravings and wayward comments of the DP about the so-called interference by Government in decision-making processes, especially concerning the third cellular licence.

I want to indicate to this House that the Government, and in particular the President, has never, and I repeat, never, involved himself, or anyone else for that matter, in the decision-making process of the SA Telecommunications Regulatory Authority. The President and the Government have no preferred bidders and have also not sought in any manner to influence the councillors of Satra to give preference to any one of these bidding companies. The public announcement of a preferred bidder that was made by Satra reflects the views and the decisions of Satra alone. Therefore Government is still awaiting the final and formal recommendations of the SA Telecommunications Regulatory Authority on this matter. That is where the matter rests. Concerning the High Court judgment earlier today, I want to state quite categorically and unambiguously that our Government will abide by the decision of this court.

Through this Bill we have charted a course of bridging the convergence of these two operating entities. This must be acknowledged as a success of the work of the Portfolio Committee on Communications and all the stakeholders involved in the communications sector. Of course, there are many issues that still need to be discussed, but we will have the time to deal with each and every one of those issues in due course. I therefore want to warn the opposition not to jump the gun, because all these matters will be dealt with as a matter of extreme urgency.

I would like to take this opportunity to thank all those who have made this Bill the success that it is. Forward to the merged authorities of South Africa, forward! [Applause.]

Debate concluded.

Bill read a second time.

The House adjourned at 18:47. ____

            ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS

ANNOUNCEMENTS:

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces:

1. The Speaker and the Chairperson:

 (1)    The Minister of Education on 6 April 2000 submitted a draft of
     the South African Council for Educators Bill, 2000, and a
     memorandum explaining the objects of the proposed legislation, to
     the Speaker and the Chairperson in terms of Joint Rule 159. The
     draft has been referred by the Speaker and the Chairperson to the
     Portfolio Committee on Education and the Select Committee on
     Education and Recreation, respectively, in accordance with Joint
     Rule 159(2).

 (2)    The Joint Tagging Mechanism (JTM) on 12 April 2000 in terms of
     Joint Rule 160(3), classified the following Bills as section 75
     Bills:


     (i)     Council for the Built Environment Bill [B 16 - 2000]
              (National Assembly - sec 75) - (Portfolio Committee on
              Public Works - National Assembly).

     (ii)    Architectural Profession Bill [B 17 - 2000] (National
              Assembly - sec 75) - (Portfolio Committee on Public Works
              - National Assembly).

     (iii)   Landscape Architectural Profession Bill [B 18 - 2000]
              (National Assembly - sec 75) - (Portfolio Committee on
              Public Works - National Assembly).

     (iv)    Engineering Profession Bill [B 19 - 2000] (National
              Assembly - sec 75) - (Portfolio Committee on Public Works
              - National Assembly).

     (v)     Property Valuers Profession Bill [B 20 - 2000] (National
              Assembly - sec 75) - (Portfolio Committee on Public Works
              - National Assembly).

     (vi)    Project and Construction Management Professions Bill [B 21
              - 2000] (National Assembly - sec 75) - (Portfolio
              Committee on Public Works - National Assembly).  
     (vii)   Quantity Surveying Profession Bill [B 22 - 2000] (National
              Assembly - sec 75) - (Portfolio Committee on Public Works
              - National Assembly).

National Assembly:

1. The Speaker:

The following change has been made to the membership of Committees,
 viz:


 Sport and Recreation:

 Discharged: Luyt, L.

TABLINGS:

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces:

Papers:

1. The Minister for Provincial and Local Government:

 Reasons for declaring a state of disaster in Mpumalanga Province,
 tabled in terms of section 2(4) of the Civil Protection Act, 1977 (Act
 No 67 of 1977).

COMMITTEE REPORTS:

National Assembly:

1. Report of the Portfolio Committee on Provincial and Local Government on the National House of Traditional Leaders Amendment Bill [B 15 - 2000] (National Assembly - sec 76), dated 11 April 2000:

   The Portfolio Committee on Provincial and Local Government, having considered the subject of the National House of Traditional Leaders Amendment Bill [B 15 - 2000] (National Assembly - sec 76), referred to it and classified by the JTM as a section 76 Bill, reports the Bill with amendments [B 15A - 2000].