TUESDAY, 11 APRIL 2000 __

          PROCEEDINGS OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
                                ____

The Council met at 10:01.

The Chairperson took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayers or meditation.

ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS - see col 000.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Order! I would like to welcome members back from their constituency period, which, I understand, was extremely busy.

I heard reports of the work of the ad hoc committee we had appointed to look into the flood disaster and other disaster management throughout the country, and I understand it was a very busy period for them. As the House, we certainly look forward to hearing their report on our management of flood disasters and other forms of disaster in our country.

Welcome as well to members of the executive who are here to respond to questions.

                          NOTICES OF MOTION

Mr L G LEVER: Madam Chair, I give notice that at the next sitting of the Council, I shall move:

That the Council -

(1) resolves in respect of Zimbabwe that -

   (a)  it deplores the flagrant disregard for the rule of law in
       failing to give effect to a High Court order and in failing to
       protect people seeking to exercise their fundamental right to
       peaceful demonstration;


   (b)  it deplores the manner in which racial tensions are being
       inflamed and manipulated for political purposes; and
   (c)  it regards these orchestrated disturbances as a setback for
       regional integration within SADC and further regards such
       behaviour as an impediment to the African renaissance; and

(2) further resolves to inform the Consul-General of Zimbabwe of this resolution for onward transmission to his government.

Mr K D S DURR: Madam Chair, I give notice that at the next sitting of the Council I shall move:

That the Council -

(1) calls upon the Minister of Defence, with the disbandment of Western Province Command, to consider taking action to preserve the Castle and its valuable cultural heritage and contents, so that it may be protected and preserved in the interests of tourism and our military and cultural history at the Cape;

(2) also calls on the Minister to give consideration to the Castle being made available to be occupied as a Reserve Force garrison base occupied by the five Cape ``traditional’’ units - the Cape Field Artillery, the Cape Garrison Artillery, the Cape Town Rifles (Dukes), the Cape Town Highlanders and Regiment Western Province;

(3) notes that the Castle is -

   (a)  a world-famous example of classic military architecture on which
       tens of millions have been spent on restoration over the past 10
       years;


   (b)  South Africa's largest military building and functioning
       installation;


   (c)  a proclaimed national monument;


   (d)  the seat of the renowned William Fehr collection of Africana;


   (e)  the repository of irreplaceable historic and other treasures;


   (f)  a vital part of our long military heritage linking with most of
       South African folk histories; and


   (g)  an important part of South Africa's early social and political
       history because it was the focus of political and military
       history for more than 200 years; and

(4) therefore calls on the Minister to act expeditiously before the Castle falls into disrepair and becomes vandalised.

Mev A M VERSFELD: Mevrou die Voorsitter, ek gee hiermee kennis dat ek by die volgende sitting sal voorstel:

Dat die Raad -

(1) kennis neem dat -

   (a)  geen nuwe toetreders tot die pelagiese bedryf vir die vang van
       sardyn en ansjovis toegelaat gaan word nie;


   (b)  daar nie uitvoering gegee word aan die Wet op Lewende Mariene
       Hulpbronne nie;


   (c)  die Minister nie die aanbevelings van die advieskomitee op 22
       November 1999 aanvaar het nie; en


   (d)  transformasie nie plaasvind nie en nuwe toetreders nie 'n kans
       gegun word nie; en

(2) derhalwe ‘n beroep op die Minister doen om -

   (a)  onmiddellik uitstaande pelagiese kwotas van makriel en masbanker
       toe te ken;


   (b)  'n komitee soos voorheen voorgestel deur die Demokratiese Party
       aan te stel om alle uitstaande kwotas, konsessies en permitte
       toe te ken; of


   (c)  die departement onder geregtelike bestuur te plaas. (Translation of Afrikaans notice of motion follows.)

[Mrs A M VERSVELD: Madam Chairperson, I hereby give notice that I shall move at the next sitting:

That the House -

(1) notes that -

   (a)  no new entrants are going to be allowed into the pelagic
       industry as regards the catching of pilchards and anchovies;


   (b   the Marine Living Resources Act is not being implemented;


   (c)  the Minister has not accepted the recommendations of the
       advisory committee on 22 November 1999; and


   (d)  transformation is not taking place and new entrants are not
       being afforded an opportunity; and

(2) therefore appeals to the Minister -

   (a)  immediately to allocate outstanding quotas of mackerel and
       maasbanker;


   (b)  to appoint a committee, as previously proposed by the DP, to
       allocate all outstanding quotas, concessions and permits; or


   (c)  to place the Department under judicial management.]

  CONGRATULATIONS TO UNIVERSITY OF STELLENBOSCH BUSINESS SCHOOL ON
  ACCREDITATION WITH EUROPEAN FOUNDATION FOR MANAGEMENT DEVELOPMENT

                         (Draft Resolution)

Mnr C ACKERMANN: Voorsitter, ek stel voor:

Dat die Raad -

(1) die Nagraadse Bestuurskool van die Universiteit van Stellenbosch gelukwens met sy akkreditering by die Europese Stigting vir Bestuursontwikkeling; en

(2) daarvan kennis neem dat hierdie internasionale erkenning ‘n prestasie is waarop die hele Suid-Afrika trots kan wees as in ag geneem word dat die Universiteit van Stellenbosch se Bestuurskool die enigste in Afrika en een van net twee bestuurskole buite Europa is wat by die Stigting geakkrediteer is. (Translation of Afrikaans draft resolution follows.)

[Mr C ACKERMANN: Chairperson, I move:

That the Council -

(1) congratulates the postgraduate Business School of the University of Stellenbosch on its accreditation with the European Foundation for Management Development; and

(2) notes that this international recognition is an achievement of which the whole of South Africa can be proud when it is considered that the University of Stellenbosch Business School is the only one in Africa and one of only two schools of business outside Europe to be accredited with the Foundation.]

Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.

CONDOLENCES TO FAMILIES AND FRIENDS OF BUS ACCIDENT VICTIMS AND DENA RAST NÉÉ FERROW

                         (Draft Resolution)

Dr E A CONROY: Madam Chair, I move without notice, on behalf of the New NP:

That the Council -

(1) expresses its condolences to the friends and family of eight persons who have died in the tragic bus accident at Mossel Bay on 24 March, and wishes a speedy and complete recovery to the 42 persons who were injured in the same accident; and

(2) also expresses its condolences to the husband, young son, friends and family of Dena Rast néé Ferrow, who was brutally murdered in a senseless assault on her at their estate near Johannesburg on 10 March of this year. Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.

                        MOTION OF CONDOLENCE

                     (The late Sabelo Simelane)

Mr G A LUCAS: Chairperson, I move without notice:

That the Council -

(1) notes with sadness the tragedy that befell the grandson of one of our country’s eminent sporting heroes;

(2) notes that five-year-old Sabelo Simelane, grandson of former World Boxing Council champion Sugarboy Malinga, tragically died in a fire at his grandparents’ home; and

(3) wishes to convey its deepest sympathy to the parents and grandparents of Sabelo.

Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.

               RETURN OF LAND TO BATHLAPING COMMUNITY

                         (Draft Resolution)

Mrs E N LUBIDLA: Chairperson, I move without notice:

That the Council -

(1) notes the historic signing over of more than 28 000 hectares of land to the Bathlaping community of the Northern Cape who were dispossessed of their land in 1968;

(2) commends the Ministers for Agriculture and Land Affairs and of Defence for their decision to transfer legal ownership of the land to its rightful owners; and

(3) wishes to assure all those people and communities who had been dispossessed of their land that this Government will not be deterred in its effort to restore their rightful ownership.

Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.

                  ASSAULT BY FARMER ON YOUNG GIRLS

                         (Draft Resolution)

Mr D M KGWARE: Chairperson, I move without notice:

That the Council -

(1) expresses its shock at the barbaric assault on two young girls (aged 10 and 11, respectively) at the hands of an East Rand farmer for allegedly stealing a few mealies;

(2) is of the opinion that this assault constitutes a serious criminal offence; and

(3) therefore calls on the Child Protection Unit and the Director of Public Prosecutions to spare no effort in their investigation into this farmer’s conduct.

Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.

               ILLEGAL OCCUPATION OF FARMS IN ZIMBABWE

                         (Draft Resolution)

Mnr P A MATTHEE: Voorsitter, ek stel sonder kennisgewing voor:

Dat die Raad -

(1) kennis neem -

   (a)  van die ernstige situasie wat in ons buurstaat Zimbabwe
       ontwikkel het ten opsigte van die onwettige besetting van plase
       van blanke boere;


   (b)  dat die polisie van Zimbabwe weier om gehoor en uitvoering ... (Translation of Afrikaans draft resolution follows.)

[Mr P A MATTHEE: Chairperson, I move without notice:

That the Council -

(1) notes -

   (a)  the serious situation which has developed in our neighbouring
       country Zimbabwe with regard to the illegal occupation of the
       farms of white farmers;


   (b)  that the police of Zimbabwe refuse to adhere to and execute ...]

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Order! You are moving that motion without notice?

Mr P A MATTHEE: Yes, Chairperson.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Order! We have just had notice of a motion on a similar subject.

Mr P A MATTHEE: Can I therefore not proceed? The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Essentially, the Rules state that no motion on a similar subject can be moved. If one tables notice of a motion, one is in fact moving that motion in terms of the conventional definition. I therefore cannot allow a similar subject at this point.

EXTENSION OF PERIOD OF OPERATION OF CERTAIN SECTIONS OF CRIMINAL LAW
                            AMENDMENT ACT

                         (Draft Resolution)

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE COUNCIL: Chairperson, I move the draft resolution printed in my name on the Order Paper, as follows:

That the Council gives its consent that the President by proclamation in the Gazette extend the period of operation of sections 51 and 52 of the Criminal Law Amendment Act, 1997 (Act No 105 of 1997), in terms of section 53(2) of the said Act for a further period of one year, with effect from 1 May 2000.

Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution (Free State abstained). FINANCIAL SERVICES BOARD AMENDMENT BILL

            (Consideration of Bill and of Report thereon)

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF FINANCE: Madam Chair and hon members, the world we live in today, the so-called global village, has seen a proliferation of financial services and institutions of all types. In fact, these account for major transactions and flows of capital which have a large impact on the direction of economic activity globally.

Thus, it becomes important to ensure that our regulatory regime can cope with the dynamism of today’s world, while at the same time protecting our people’s interests. These particular amendments are not of major consequence, but serve to clarify certain aspects of the principal Act and to regularise, through legislation, certain practices.

Firstly, through these amendments we create a hierarchy of decision-making that clarifies the relationship between the board and the executive of the FSB. Secondly, we seek to describe more simply and clearly the functions of the board, so that instead of supervising the exercise of control, the board will supervise compliance with laws regulating financial institutions and the provision of financial services. Thirdly, the FSB will now, as part of its work, engage in consumer education which is particularly important in the South African historical context of inequitable access to information, financial institutions and markets generally. Fourthly, the amendments relieve the President of the function that relates to the appointment of members of the board, which is now to be exercised by the Minister of Finance, as the FSB falls under him and as he already exercises other functions such as the appointment of the executive of the FSB and members of the board of appeal. Fifthly, we expand the representation of the executive committee to include administration and finance.

We also make it obligatory for consultation with the financial services industry before imposing levies through which the FSB activities are funded. Other amendments do the following: they streamline procedures that relate to consultation between the Minister of Finance and the board and the executive. They also relax the secrecy provision of the FSB somewhat by making it possible for it to exchange information with other local regulators and self-regulatory bodies and to assist foreign regulatory and supervisory authorities, provided that it is not against the public interest. They also redefine limitation of the FSB’s liability incurred in the course of the performance of its functions to make it clear that gross negligence will not be tolerated. We also regulate, through these amendments, the use of the logo of the FSB.

Importantly, however, we make changes to the composition of the board of appeal. Previously, one member of the FSB board needed to serve on the board of appeal.

We have seen this as possibly in conflict with the Constitution, in that the board member may have been directly or indirectly a party to a decision on which an appeal has been noted. The board of appeal will now be constituted by a lawyer, an accountant and a party acquainted with the financial services industry, all of them having wide experience and expert knowledge of their fields of expertise.

Provision is also made for alternate members to be appointed to each of the members of the board of appeal, as well as the co-option of an assessor to assist the board if that should be deemed necessary. The noting of an appeal will not have the effect of suspending the registrar’s decision, with the proviso that the board of appeal may on the application of an interested party, direct otherwise. Possible orders which the board of appeal may issue have been extended to include a referral back to the registrar, as well as an order of costs in accordance with the procedures of the High Court. These are all the amendments that we are effecting to this Bill, through which we really intend to improve the legislation. [Applause.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Order! Hon members, before we proceed, I would like to note the return of Boyce Willem. He is back in his seat, and we welcome him back to the House after a long period of recuperation following a car accident. We are very pleased that you are back, safe and sound, hon member. [Applause.]

I also note that our next speaker, Ms Mahlangu, was in fact herself involved in an accident recently, if I am not incorrect. I urge all members to really ensure that we drive safely and really take care on the road. We are glad, hon member, that you are safe.

Ms Q D MAHLANGU: Chairperson, I think your remarks are really welcomed, but I also think that the Arrive Alive Campaign must also make sure that other motorists drive safely on the roads, so that they should not cause accidents and create problems for people like me.

Deputy Minister of Finance and hon members of this august house, the Financial Services Board Amendment Bill seeks to bring technical amendments which are of a substantive nature to the principal Act. The Financial Services Board is an independent statutory body established by an Act of Parliament, namely the Financial Services Board Act, 97 of 1990. The board supervises the South African nonbanking financial sector, which, amongst others, includes insurance companies, asset management and so on.

The Financial Services Board’s mission is to promote sound, efficient financial institutions and services, together with mechanisms for investor protection. The Financial Services Board is accountable to the Minister of Finance. The purpose of the Bill before us is to correct and improve various aspects of the Financial Services Board, its structure and its functioning - to correct various provisions and delete others. The existing Act uses words like supervision'' andsupervise’’ on a number of occasions to describe the relationship between the executive officer and the Financial Services Board. This implies that the board controls the activities of the executive officer. The executive officer is also the registrar in terms of the regulatory laws, which imposes obligations on the executive officer as the registrar.

The present Act implies that the board has to approve all decisions made by the executive officer. In this light the approach adopted by the Bill we are seeking to approve today is that words like supervise'' and supervision’’ should refer to three tiers of decision-making, as the Deputy Minister has indicated.

This being the first level of significant decisions which the board has to approve, the second level of decision-making is where the executive officer must make decisions within guidelines set by the board. The third level - which is of less significant decisions - is where the executive officer can make his or her decisions without any consultation. Since the board cannot confirm every minute decision, the separation of decisions into various categories allow for significant decisions to be taken under close supervision, less significant decisions to be taken within guidelines and routine decisions to be taken freely without any consultation again.

Secondly, section 3 of the current Act states that the board should exercise control, in terms of any law, over the activities of the financial institutions and over financial services. This is not correct as the board does not exercise such control. The Bill before us is trying to state unambiguously that the board is to supervise the compliance, within the financial regulatory laws, of those parties to whom these laws apply.

The committee had a very lengthy discussion over one of the new functions of the board, that is, investor education. The committee was very happy with the inclusion of investor education. This will help ordinary people to know and understand which products they are getting themselves into and what services they are entitled to as ordinary South African citizens as it relates to their investments and other things. We also welcome the idea of the helpline because it is also going to help people to be further able to consult the Financial Services Board from time to time. The existing Act also prescribes that the President appoints a member of the board. The Deputy Minister has spoken about the issue that it was an unnecessary burden on the President. Therefore the Bill seeks to make sure that the Minister of Finance performs this function.

Lastly, in terms of the present Act, the board has the right to impose levies on financial institutions and it is not required to adopt a consultative approach in this regard. But the Bill before us today provides for a compulsory consultative process prior to imposing levies if this is necessary. This is in line with upholding the democratic values and principles of our Constitution that are giving people the right to comment on issues that will affect them such as the imposition of levies and so forth. Therefore the select committee is convinced that the Bill and the amendments that are brought before us are correct, and we ask that the House supports the Bill.

Dr E A CONROY: Mevrou die Voorsitter, Adjunkminister en agb lede, die Raad op Finansiële Dienste is ‘n onafhanklike statutêre instelling wat ingevolge die Wet op die Raad op Finansiële Dienste van 1990 gestig is om toesig te hou oor die Suid-Afrikaanse finansiële dienstebedryf buite die banksektor. Die raad, wat verantwoordbaar is aan die Minister van Finansies, is reeds die afgelope nege jaar in werking, en het in dié tyd plaaslik en internasionaal respek verdien vir die rol wat hy in die gladde, doeltreffende en mededingende finansiële dienstebedryf speel.

Sedert 1990 het dit egter nodig geword om sekere wysigings aan die wet aan te bring. Die voorgestelde wysigings is tegnies en nie van besondere gewigtige aard nie, en is hoofsaaklik gerig op die opheldering van sekere van die hoofwet se aspekte wat daagliks in die raad se werksaamhede ter sprake kom.

As voorbeeld kan genoem word dat die woorde toesig'' entoesig hou’’ op verskeie plekke in die wet gebruik word, en aangesien daar in die gemenereg ‘n bepaalde betekenis aan dié woorde geheg word, sou dit vertolk kon word as sou die raad die uitvoerende beampte se werksaamhede beheer en al sy beslissings moet goedkeur.

In hierdie wysigingswetsontwerp word die woorde toesig'' enom toesig te hou’’ omskryf om te verwys na betekenisvolle beslissings wat die raad moet goedkeur, na beslissings wat die uitvoerende beampte moet neem binne die riglyne wat deur die raad gestel word en na minder betekenisvolle beslissings wat die uitvoerende beampte self kan neem.

Nog ‘n belangrike wysiging wat ingevoer word, is ‘n nuwe funksie, naamlik die bevordering van finansiële instellings se programme en inisiatiewe wat op die opvoeding van verbruikers gerig is. Hierdie ontwikkeling, wat in die toekoms ‘n hoë voorkeur in die raad se werksaamhede sal geniet, word wyd verwelkom.

Die wysiging waarvolgens die President se funksie by die keuring en aanstelling van die lede van die raad na die Minister van Finansies verskuif word, is reeds vroeër deur die Nuwe NP bevraagteken, alhoewel dit slegs semanties is aangesien effektiewe beheer oor die aanstellings reeds vir alle praktiese doeleindes in die hande van die Minister van Finansies is.

Dit is egter ‘n saak van beginsel aangesien vele kundige persone wat met groot vrug in die raad sou kon dien, deur hierdie wysiging daarvan weerhou sal word om hulle vir hierdie diens beskikbaar te stel aangesien hulle maatskappye se aktes van oprigting politieke betrokkenheid verbied, en ‘n aanstelling deur ‘n Minister as politieke betrokkenheid beskou kan word.

Die President daarenteen is die staatshoof, en aanstellings deur hom geniet hoë status en kan kwalik deur enigeen geweier word. Dit sal trouens met groot eer aanvaar word. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)

[Dr E A CONROY: Madam Chairperson, Deputy Minister and hon members, the Financial Services Board is an independent, statutory institution which was established in terms of the Financial Services Board Act of 1990 to supervise the South African financial services industry outside the banking sector. The board, who is accountable to the Minister of Finance, has been operational for the past nine years, and has in this time earned local and international respect for the role it plays in the smooth, efficient and competitive financial services industry.

However, since 1990 it has become necessary to effect certain amendments to the Act. The proposed amendments are technical and not particularly significant, and are primarily aimed at the clarification of certain aspects of the principal Act which are at issue daily in the deliberations of the board.

An example would be the words supervision'' andsupervise’’ which are used in several places in the Act, and since these words have a specific meaning in common law, they could be interpreted as meaning that the board controls the functions of the executive officer and must approve all his decisions.

In this amending Bill the words supervision'' andsupervise’’ are defined as referring to significant decisions that the board must approve, decisions that the executive officer has to make in accordance with the guidelines set by the board and less significant decisions which the executive officer may make on his own.

Another important amendment which has been introduced is a new function, namely the promotion of financial institutions’ programmes and initiatives aimed at the education of consumers. This development, which will enjoy a high priority in the future functions of the board, is widely welcomed.

The amendment according to which the function of the President concerning the selection and appointment of the members of the board is shifted to the Minister of Finance, has already been questioned by the New NP, although it is a question of semantics, because efficient control of the appointments already rests, to all intents and purposes, in the hands of the Minister of Finance.

However, it is a matter of principle, because many experts who could have been a great asset to this board, will be prevented by this amendment from making themselves available for this service, because their companies’ memorandums of association forbid involvement in politics, and an appointment by a Minister could be considered to be involvement in politics. On the other hand, the President is the head of state, and appointments by him enjoy high status and can hardly be refused by anyone. As a matter of fact, it will be accepted with honour.]

Furthermore, the number of members of the executive is being expanded, a process of consultation with the industry before levies for the funding of the financial services industry are proclaimed is being introduced, a new clause is being inserted to streamline the procedures for continual consultation with the Minister, the FSB secrecy provision is slightly extended to enable it to exchange information with other local regulators and self-regulatory bodies and the limitation of the FSB’s liability incurred in the execution of its functions is being redefined to make it clear that gross negligence will not be excused.

The Bill has no organisational, human resources or financial implications for the state and is, despite the reservations mentioned earlier in respect of the appointment of board members, supported by the New NP.

Mr J L THERON: Chairperson, hon Deputy Minister and hon colleagues, at the outset, I want to state categorically that the DP supports this Bill. To us in the DP good supervision of the financial sector is of critical importance and therefore we support this Bill.

The Financial Services Board Amendment Bill deals primarily with a large number of technical amendments applicable to the operations of the Financial Services Board. Improving the operations of the Financial Services Board could only be positive and therefore we support these improvements. The Financial Services Board, or the FSB, as it is commonly known, plays an oversight role in respect of participants in the financial services industry other than banks or mutual banks, which are controlled by the Banks Act, Act 94 of 1990, or the Mutual Banks Act, Act 124 of 1993.

The oversight roles that the FSB has over insurance and investment companies are of critical importance to the ordinary man in the street. We all have short-term and long-term insurance and we all invest in our pension schemes. We trust that the FSB will ensure that our financial investments will be financially well managed for our long-term wellbeing.

The most important issues of the Financial Services Board Amendment Bill are covered in clauses 1 and 2 of the Bill and relate to the refining of the nature of the supervision which the board has to carry out. There was uncertainty as to the precise nature of the supervision required, which was highlighted by some court judgments.

There are some bodies which are not happy because they believe that the board, as a whole, may take over the many functions currently performed by the registrar as designated in a number of the Acts governing the financial services industry. In practice, however, the executive officer of the Financial Services Board is also the registrar in terms of the various Acts, and it does not therefore seem illogical that he or she should have guidelines laid down by the Financial Services Board. The amendments with regard to the supervision were supported by all the parties in the select committee and we also support these supervisory aspects.

The new three-tier approach to decisions is also welcomed by the DP. At the first level, that of significant decisions, the board has to approve the decisions. At the second level, the executive officer makes decisions within guidelines set by the board. At the third level, that of less significant decisions, the executive officer can make his or her own decisions.

‘n Verdere belangrike aspek van die nuwe Wysigingswetsontwerp op die Raad op Finansiële Dienste vind ons in klousule 2 van die wysigingswetsontwerp, wat die volgende paragraaf by artikel 3 van die hoofwet invoeg:

Die werksaamhede van die raad is om -

 Programme en inisiatiewe deur finansiële instellings en liggame wat die
 finansiële dienstebedryf verteenwoordig om gebruikers en potensiële
 gebruikers van finansiële produkte en dienste in te lig en voor te lig,
 te bevorder.

Hierdie is nuwe inisiatiewe waaroor die DP verheug is. Ons sien baie uit na hierdie programme en inisiatiewe wat die raad kan loods om verbruikers in te lig. Vandag is dit uiters noodsaaklik vir enige organisasie om verbruikersvriendelik te wees, en hierdie is ‘n positiewe ontwikkeling.

Hierdie aspek is ook bespreek in die gekose komitee en ek het toe reeds lede van die raad wat daar was daarop gewys dat dit nie nodig is om die wiel weer te herontwerp nie. Baie universiteite en technikons bied reeds programme in hierdie verband aan wat van groot hulp kan wees om hierdie programme en inisiatiewe te steun.

Dit sal vir die gebruikers van hierdie produkte en dienste van onskatbare waarde wees om baie goed ingelig te word voordat enige geld belê word. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.) [A further important aspect of the new Financial Services Board Amendment Bill is to be found in clause 2 of the amending Bill, which inserts the following paragraph into section 3 of the principal Act:

The functions of the board are to -

(c) Promote programmes and initiatives by financial institutions and bodies representing the financial services industry to inform and educate users and potential users of financial products and services.

These are new initiatives about which the DP are delighted. We are very much looking forward to these programmes and initiatives that can be launched by the board to inform consumers. Today it is absolutely essential for any organisation to be consumer-friendly, and this is a positive development.

This aspect was also discussed in the Select Committee and already at that stage I pointed out to members of the board who were present that it was not necessary to reinvent the wheel. Many universities and technikons are already presenting programmes in this regard, which can be of great assistance in supporting these programmes and initiatives. It will be invaluable to the users of these products and services to be very well informed before any money is invested.]

In conclusion, as hon members could have deduced by now, the DP feels positive about this legislation and therefore we support it. We will definitely take part in the oversight role that we have over these bodies and hope to play a positive role to ensure that the consumers out there will get good financial products and services to ensure them a good and prosperous future. [Interjections.]

Mr G A LUCAS: Chairperson, hon Deputy Minister of Finance, hon permanent delegates of this House and all special delegates who are here today, before I start, I wish to indicate that it is the first time that all parties have agreed, without any reservations, to all the amendments that we have made thus far. I think it is good and commendable on their part to at least acknowledge that there is some good in what we are doing.

Act 97 of 1990 states that the Financial Services Board must regulate and supervise the South African nonbanking financial services industry. This, by its very definition, is a mammoth task for a statutory body like the FSB. It is an important task which the FSB must carry out with diligence, honesty, fairness and, above all, integrity. Those responsibilities which fall within the ambit of the FSB contribute in a major way to our country’s economy, thus also playing an important role in the economic growth and sustainable development of our country, which is the agenda that we have set for ourselves.

It is also important to know that, through the Financial Services Board’s daily operations, we can either build or destroy investor confidence in our country and therefore it requires from us as public representatives to ensure that the FSB is above corrupt practices and other matters which might affect the FSB negatively.

The regulatory functions of the FSB as entrusted to the registrars of insurance, friendly societies, pension funds, unit trust companies, stock exchange and financial markets are an indication of the importance of the existence of such a body as the FSB to ensure that there is fair and honest competitiveness within these institutions.

Concerning the amendments themselves, I am particularly pleased that the Bill before us makes the promotion of investor education obligatory for the Financial Services Board. We, as members of this House, conveyed the concerns and interests of our constituencies when scrutinising this Bill. Our constituencies feel helpless when it comes to dealing with financial institutions, especially those in the nonbanking sector such as the long- term insurance industry and the stock exchange. This is not surprising, as a large percentage of our population is illiterate and the intricacies of investments and share trading confuse even the most educated members of our communities.

Therefore the protection of individuals from fraudulent insurance salespeople, fund managers and unethical insurance brokers is also a mandate of the Financial Services Board. We, as members of this House, view the education of the public about the proper conduct of financial institutions as being very central to the objectives of our national Constitution.

Other objectives of the Bill are that provisions with regard to the pension rights of officers and employees that were transferred from the Public Service to the Financial Services Board are repealed as they are no longer necessary. The secrecy provision regarding information obtained by the Financial Services Board is relaxed so as to allow the Financial Services Board to provide information and assistance to other regulatory authorities, local as well as abroad. This clause, together with the provision on indemnity in respect of performance of functions by certain persons and bodies, will aid our campaign against money laundering and corruption, and facilitate the implementation of the Insider Trading Act, which was passed by the previous Parliament.

This Act makes it illegal to profit from any information on the trading of shares on the stock exchange which is not available to the public. The work currently done by the Financial Services Board with regard to prosecuting beneficiaries of insider information and/or compensating victims of insider information is commendable and unprecedented in the history of share trading in this country.

The Financial Services Board Amendment Bill before this House enjoys the support of the ANC because we are convinced that the functions of the Financial Services Board will be enhanced through these amendments.

I wish to inform the House that the ANC wholeheartedly supports the amendments as presented before the House.

Mr K D S DURR: Chairperson, may I say that I agree very much with the hon member who has just sat down in his comments - hich were also raised by the chairperson of the select committee - on the whole question of investor education. Nothing can, in the long term, be more important to our economic future than that kind of effort, not only there, but elsewhere in society.

I wish to refer to clause 3 of the Constitution - and I am glad that the New NP feels the same as we do: We feel that the situation where the Minister replaces the President in appointing the Financial Services Board is wrong. It is far more than being purely technical, as it is pretended that the Minister does it anyway. We know how it works: Ministers do make recommendations, but we believe it to be a mistake for several reasons.

Firstly, the board members will be seen as placemen for the Minister - which, indeed, they will be. Secondly, the presidential appointments carry much more weight and can, therefore, attract a far higher calibre of person. The people themselves will be and will feel more independent when differences arise with the Ministry. By allowing the Minister to appoint the board, the legislation Finlandises the board.

I know many companies - and have been on the Board of some of them - where the very senior people in the company will not accept a ministerial appointment, but will only accept a presidential appointment. The more junior people will then go to the ministerial appointments further down the line and other appointments to various statutory bodies.

The Financial Services Board is one that should be rigorous, independent and have the highest calibre of person serving on it. Indeed, as I have said that some companies will not allow a person to serve because when one accepts a ministerial appointment, it is taken as a political appointment whereas if it is a presidential one, it is seen as nonpolitical. This is because the President appoints people wearing two hats, one for political and the other for nonpolitical appointments. So, there are companies which are precluded from accepting such appointments.

The second thing I would like to raise with the Minister is the question - which I am disappointed about, and was mentioned in his speech - of ombudsman for the financial services sector. It is an urgent priority that such an ombudsman should be appointed and, in my view, have statutory powers. We should be doing something about it, particularly now that the banks are moving into microlending - Standard Bank has just bought a microlending company meaning that it is moving into microlending and the other big banks will probably move in that direction as well. I am very pleased that they are, because some people in the microlending industry should not be in the business at all. The industry will have to be far more responsible as the big banks get involved.

But the need for an ombudsman is clear, because it will save millions in legal costs - the ombudsman could be funded by the industry itself. This will allow problems to be dealt with quickly, fairly and inexpensively, and there are no financial implications for the state. I really would ask the Minister, if he is not already doing so, to give it his urgent attention.

I also want to raise the question of microlending, which again affects the Financial Services Board directly. This microlending industry frightens me. I sat in my car in my village where I live, and watched people going into a microlending agency. I know the people - shepherds; simple and fine people. These people are like putty in the hands of microlenders, who take their IDs and whatever surety these poor people can offer.

The excellent name which our financial services sector has built in South Africa over a hundred years and longer is being squandered by these loan sharks that we very often find in these villages.

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! Hon member, your time is up. In fact, I gave you an extra five seconds because you were talking about something of very great importance.

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF FINANCE: Madam Chair, I would like to thank all hon members for supporting the Bill that we are dealing with. I must say that I am sorry that I may not have heard some of the concerns that were raised by Dr Conroy, because I was battling with the hearing aid, as he was speaking Afrikaans. Therefore, I may have missed some of the concerns that he has raised.

On the question of the role of the Minister of Finance, raised by Mr Durr, I would imagine that if we hold the Minister of Finance accountable, we have to give some role to the Ministry in terms of determining the area over which he has responsibility. He also has some role in determining who are the people who play a role in the institutions that carry out work on behalf of the Minister of Finance. I am sure that, in the environment that exists in South Africa today, we should not particularly be harbouring worries about people appointed by a Minister not being able to differ with the views of the Minister. Therefore, I believe that this is really a matter that enables the streamlining of all the work that is involved in putting together all the structures of the Financial Services Board.

I take the points Mr Durr raised concerning the question of an ombudsman for the financial services sector, and I hope it is something over which we will, perhaps, someday come back to in the House, because at the moment I am not certain what sort of work is being done in that regard. However, one will hope that, in due course, we can, perhaps, come back to the House and give an indication of what direction we are moving in.

On the question of microlenders, of which I am very sorry that he could not finish his point, that is really a matter of critical concern. In a sense, it is an anomaly of the South African society. It is a combination of many things. It is a reflection of our history and of our past, where access to financial services was a problem. But it is also a reflection of the current economic situation in our country. We are undergoing major changes in the economy, and these are exerting various pressures on people’s incomes, and so on. But, indeed, it is a serious issue. The conduct of a … [Interjections.]

Mr K D S DURR: Madam Chair, can I ask the Deputy Minister a question?

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! Are you prepared to answer a question, hon Deputy Minister?

The DEPUTY MINISTER: Yes, Madam Chair.

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! Yes, hon member, you can ask the Deputy Minister a question.

Mr K D S DURR: I just want to say to the Minister that had I been able to complete my speech, I would have said that. However, is he of the opinion that the control of the Usury Act and microlending should be transferred from the Department of Trade and Industry to the more appropriate Financial Services Board? For a start, with the Standard Bank, for example, entering microlending, one is going to have dual control. The Financial Services Board are going to be regulating some aspects of their businesses, and Trade and Industry the others.

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! You were supposed to ask a question, and not to make a speech.

The DEPUTY MINISTER: Madam Chair, yes, that is a fair question. Mr Durr should know that there are a number of areas where one finds that regulation in South Africa is actually scattered over a number of different departments. This creates a problem. One of the debates that are going on at the moment is about how we can try to consolidate regulation. Of course, one of the debates that are taking place is whether we should not establish what one can call a super-regulator! In other words, establish a comprehensive and consolidated regulatory board or authority, which will resort under one department.

Currently we have some regulatory bodies accountable to the Department of Trade and Industry and the Department of Finance, and others to the Reserve Bank. So there is a debate that is going on around consolidation. It is an ongoing debate amongst Finance, Trade and Industry, the FSB and the SA Reserve Bank, and I am sure that in due course, that is once we have taken those discussions to a certain point, we will be able to inform the House as to the direction in which we are moving.

This was really to make the point that the question of microlenders is a matter of great concern, and we hope that we can, at least, remove some of the negative aspects of the microlending industry.

Of course, Mr Durr is correct when he says that banks are actually moving into the microlending sector. I think Absa was the first, and I hear that Standard Bank has also done the same. We would simply hope that this would actually go some way in ensuring that banks themselves extend services which previously they did not extend to certain sectors of the community.

I would like to thank all members. [Applause.]

Debate concluded.

Bill agreed to in accordance with section 75 of the Constitution.

Business suspended at 11:23 and resumed at 14:01.

                          Afternoon sitting

                         APPROPRIATION BILL

                         (Review of Policy)

Vote No 3 - Agriculture and Vote No 20 - Land Affairs:

The MINISTER FOR AGRICULTURE AND LAND AFFAIRS: Mr Chairperson, earlier on in the day we were told that there would be two separate debates, one which would start in the morning and the other in the afternoon. It looks as if there have been changes. I will try to juggle the two policy speeches, and hope that hon members will not be bored. We will try to be very exciting. I know this House is one of those Houses that is very intimate in the way in which it interacts with us as Ministers. Therefore all of us always look forward to it when we are invited to the NCOP.

The President, in his address to Parliament last year, reconfirmed our commitment to reconstruction and development of our society, a task which can be achieved when we all work together in partnership. He further acknowledged work done in the past five years which, in my view, remains as a foundation for our building blocks as we reconstruct and build South Africa. One of the challenges we therefore all face is to improve the quality of life of all South Africans, particularly for those who were disenfranchised by the apartheid government.

In executing our task, we are always mindful that, as South Africans, we do not move from the principle of working towards a levelled playing field. Through this budget debate, therefore, it is my hope that we will highlight those critical issues at the interface of national and provincial governance that need to be addressed through the allocation of budgetary resources to benefit the entire South African nation.

Today we will debate the Budget Votes of both the Department of Agriculture and the Department of Land Affairs. I will start, however, with the Budget Vote on Agriculture, Vote No 3. The challenge for Government in terms of developing South African agriculture remains the need to deracialise the sector and to promote and support economic growth, as well as to ensure that, in our pursuit of these policies, we attain a better life for our people, and continuously nurture our natural resources.

This was well articulated by the ANC in 1994 when we ushered in our new democracy, particularly through the Reconstruction and Development Programme. Various initiatives to respond to the legacy of apartheid were put in place, and now, almost six years later, we are beginning to see the results of those interventions.

One key initiative was the effort to broaden access to agricultural services, particularly for those who did not have it before. As an outcome of that process, we identified the constraints faced by disadvantaged farmers, prioritised their concerns and developed new instruments for information dissemination amongst farmers.

Important in this context of the new South Africa is the range of initiatives aimed at creating a culture of inclusivity in the industry. We now no longer find it strange, as it would have been before, to find black people, young people and women playing an active role in the agricultural economy. On another level, our chaste approach to the conservation of our natural resources has resulted in our people taking responsibility for caring for the soil and water and the biodiversity that we have.

One such programme is our land care programme. The land care programme thus remains a flagship programme for the Ministry. The aim of this programme is to have communities and individuals adopt an ecologically sustainable approach to the management of South Africa’s environment and natural resources while improving their livelihood.

This implies that cultivation, livestock grazing and harvesting of natural resources will be managed in such a manner that the degradation of our soil, nutrient loss and loss of components of the vegetation, as well as the increased run-off water, are curtailed. The consequences of this will be the opportunity for smallholder farmers and resource-constrained farmers to improve the quality of these natural resources, and to improve productivity per unit of land.

I must say here that one of the setbacks that we have started to realise, particularly in those provinces that were badly hit by the floods, is that in many instances we are starting to see some degradation and soil erosion. Our challenge, therefore, as part as the reconstruction after the floods, will be to ensure that we put this natural base that we have, the land, to good use and improve it for today’s, as well as for tomorrow’s, generations.

The consequences of this will be the opportunity for smallholder farmers and resource-constrained farmers to improve the quality of these natural resources and improve productivity per unit of land. Through the implementation of this programme we have also developed synergies with other international partners and citizens. Of note is the relationship we have with the Australian government and its people. We are continually building up institutional capacity at national and provincial levels in order to grow and sustain our land care programme. This is one of the programmes that we are working at together with our provincial departments of agriculture. On the whole, and taking into consideration where we come from, we have made remarkable progress.

The initiative confirms for us the seriousness with which we view the role of agriculture in building a strong economy. The challenge is to work for increases in production and incomes at the farm level in order to provide the necessary stimulus for the development of the economy.

One of the realities of South Africa is that most black farmers, whether small-scale or not, have limited access to land and capital, and have received inadequate or inappropriate research extension and marketing support. This has constrained their ability to grow, and is a direct result of the legacy of apartheid and the history of land dispossession. This, in turn, has resulted in an undue reliance, to a greater or lesser extent, on subsistence production.

The truth of the matter is that black farmers are not exclusively small, neither would it be correct to limit the definition of small-scale or subsistence farmers to those who are black. Small-scale farmers in South Africa, we know, can be anyone, black or white. Given the South African experience of subjectivity linked to the use of the term ``small-scale’’, we have resolved to deal with all farmers, recognising that they operate on farms of different sizes.

What is of essence now is that small-scale enterprises can be made commercially viable. What remains is to finalise the characterisation of small, medium and large-scale farming, using the combination of size holding and its capacity to generate income. Those members who are aware of the ecological situation in the country, may find that that which is small in the Northern Cape, may actually not be the same size as one’s small- scale farm in KwaZulu-Natal, because of the difference in local vegetation in those areas.

Nonetheless, I wish to reiterate that the challenge facing us in this second democracy with regard to deracialisation of the sector is to ensure that we increase the participation of those who were previously disadvantaged.

In order to achieve our Government’s objectives of black empowerment and poverty eradication, policies will therefore address problems faced by black farmers in general, and resource-poor farmers in particular. Together with the MECs of Agriculture and Land Affairs in the various provinces, we agreed on several priorities last year for agriculture. Those priorities include a farmer settlement programme, extension services and improved trade promotion. There are many others.

I would like to say that one of the important priorities we all recognise as essential for agriculture, whether on a small or large scale, is that of human resource development and capacity-building in the form of farmer training, and the development of institutions in order to allow us to improve our advisory services as well as our technological transfer. I must say these issues are also critical if we were to look at the role that our different colleges have to play in the various provinces.

Other priority areas which we as the agricultural leadership in Government will be paying attention to is the development of policies and programmes on food security, as well as on infrastructure development. This will be pursued within the framework of the agricultural growth agenda, as well as in support of the integrated rural development strategy announced by the President in his address to Parliament. This House will realise that one of the constraints that farmers face, whether they be small or large when it comes to infrastructure, is that South Africa’s rural roads are not in good shape, and therefore this has an impact not just on how one interests one’s input suppliers in those areas, but also on how one accesses markets in return.

It is on this basis that we have explored with Public Works ways in which we can draw on their resources to improve rural roads in order to enable agriculture to thrive in those areas. Working with the provinces and other Government departments as a national department and in order to consolidate those efforts, we will work continually to strengthen co-ordination between national and provincial departments in order to ensure that we treat agriculture as a system, and not as diverse activities. Critical in this process will be bringing the planning and implementation in the restitution and redistribution process in the Department of Land Affairs, and financial support programmes of the Land Bank, the National Marketing Council and the Agricultural Research Council into alignment with our national focus areas.

Furthermore, we will build on existing co-operation arrangements that exist with other departments and provincial departments of agriculture and launch joint programmes in rural areas. Some examples of these are the initiative of restructuring the irrigation systems in the northern and eastern provinces. Linked to this initiative is a rethink about how we as Government can facilitate the development of production and marketing infrastructure, particularly in the ex-homeland areas.

Our view is to change those white elephants into black elephants that can move and walk. I am currently engaged in discussion with other line- function Ministers nationally and with the MECs in the provinces, particularly those of transport and public works, as well as minerals and energy, because as much as infrastructure such as roads is critical, energy sources are also important for agricultural development.

We do realise that our rural community is still dependent on land for production purposes and for food security. Therefore our contribution as a department, when we work with other departments in looking at the rural development strategy, is to define what should be the role of agriculture in this regard. The challenges of rural development are complex, and we have adopted a strong geographic focus in the strategy that we believe should go a long way in unlocking economic potential, supporting social development and creating synergy in Government programmes.

For agriculture, our targeted intervention is in the form of the special food security programme, which is designed to improve household food security among the resource-poor in rural and peri-urban areas.

The special food security programme will, through a series of well-designed pilot activities, demonstrate that the rapid and significant increases in food production and household incomes could be achieved. It will identify additional constraints on increased food production and assist in developing a consolidated approach and investment programme in order to increase national agricultural production.

In direct response to the challenge to the growth of our economy, we held an agricultural indaba in October last year with the aim of establishing an annual forum for dialogue between Government, farmers, labour and other interested stakeholders in order to deliberate on those issues which are critical for the sustainable development of the sector. There was general agreement that the overarching challenge facing us all is that in order to create a sector that is viable, we need to improve the competitiveness in this industry. The intention is to promote economic growth and create more jobs, because failure to do so will result in the destruction of domestic industries by foreign competitors.

We have since engaged with the stakeholders about the constraints on competitiveness, productivity and informal dissemination. One such workshop will take place between our department and the grain producers of South Africa at a meeting on 18 and 19 April. We will be looking closely at the grain industry of South Africa to see, firstly, what issues we need to deal with together; secondly, what constraints we need to remove; and thirdly, what sacrifices we may need to make in order to ensure that this industry becomes competitive.

It is now imperative that the country dedicate enough resources to the gathering and proper analysis of statistics, the search for effective policies and development strategies, the commercialisation of the subsistence sector and interaction with other countries in order to promote and protect our international trade interests. I am raising these things because if we have a long-term view of where we want to take agriculture, competitiveness becomes the key. Also, for competitiveness to occur, it needs to be supported properly by information and proper analysis of our own situation and that of those that we compete with.

Regarding trade facilitation, our enthusiasm to participate in the global market is not without due regard for the inherent dangers presented by unfair domestic support. Export subsidies and denial of access to our products by developed countries remains one of the challenges that we face. Our farmers can be assured of our commitment to protect them from unfair international trading practices, through intelligence-gathering and the institution of countervailing and antidumping measures.

I know that hon members will agree with me that growth must increasingly be based on the ability to export products and compete on the world market. We will therefore continue to engage the World Trade Organisation, the EU partners and other trading partners in order to achieve this. We will commence with efforts to increase the economic integration of the SADC region. To beef up our capacity to transform the industry, we will need to ensure that our resources are allocated in a manner that will ensure that there is capacity for the promotion of a domestic market, management of agricultural statistics, development of defensive trade measures and promotion of international trade.

I also give the assurance that this will be done with the full appreciation of the fact that empowerment of historically disadvantaged citizens remains a continuous thrust of all economic programmes.

In concluding the agricultural policy statement, it is important to stress that our objectives will only be achieved by a comprehensive, well-designed package of policies. A long-term approach for agricultural transformation requires a complete reorientation of skills and service delivery to farmers, including the decentralisation of such services to the level of local government and farmers’ organisations. Market orientation became critical in this regard.

However, in order to be effective, strategies to support farmer development not only have to be conceptually sound and noble, but also have to be properly capacitated.

There is therefore a need to continuously reflect on, reprioritise and co- ordinate the budgets and activities of both the national and provincial departments of agriculture and of our parastatal in order to give effect to this strategy. It is my hope, therefore, that in looking at Vote No 3 on Agriculture, we will be able to find synergy in terms of our policies and resource allocation.

Chairperson, I know that in terms of the time allocation, I may be running out of time, but you did tell me that I have two debates to discuss.

I now turn to a very important issue, namely the land issue, which our Government has to deal with under this portfolio. Our promise to the electorate, as we went to the polls in 1999, was that we would recommit ourselves to the transformation agenda of our country. One of the fundamental issues we still need to resolve is the inequities in terms of land distribution and ownership patterns, which reflect our past history as well as legislation under apartheid rule.

The President, in his state-of-the-nation address, identified poverty alleviation, urban renewal and rural development as areas which remain a major challenge for our country as a whole.

The portfolio of Agriculture and Land Affairs is critical to the achievement of the Government’s objective of transforming rural lives and landscapes. This is largely because of our role in facilitating access to land.

The land question is thus fundamental to the economic transformation process in South Africa. The legacy of gross inequality in land ownership continues to prevail in South Africa even after five years of democratic rule and the introduction of major land reform programmes.

I must say that, in the past few weeks and days, we have been asked many questions, and even given all sorts of advice on what we should tell the government of Zimbabwe regarding how it should resolve its land reform programme, and many other related issues. For me, one thing that has been missing from the debate is what we should be doing in South Africa.

Many newspapers and different news media have been trying to draw us into this debate on Zimbabwe, but none of them actually spend time reflecting on the South African situation and asking themselves how they can make things better for South Africa.

I am raising this point because I think it is an important matter which we sometimes avoid. If one looks at areas such as Mpumalanga, and the Northern Province in particular, where one still finds persecution of farmworkers and farm dwellers, it becomes very clear that the land question in South Africa is still one of those daunting tasks we face.

HON MEMBERS: Yes!

The MINISTER: If one looks at the legislation that we have just passed to secure tenure for farmworkers and increase publicity regarding this in order for labour tenants to understand their rights, it becomes clear that this is a matter that South Africa cannot continue to postpone. In my view, and I think hon members will agree with me, the sooner we confront the land question in South Africa, and confront it earnestly, with the aim of resolving it and with the aim of dealing with our past and creating our future, the better it will be. We would actually be engaged in a much more fruitful debate than debating what Zimbabwe should do or should not do. [Interjections.]

My own view is that land is not just an emotive issue, as others would like us to believe, but it is a productive base for many of our people. It is also an asset on which we can base our primary economic objectives.

In pursuit of land reform goals, our primary objective is to create and maintain an equitable and sustainable land dispensation in support of reconstruction, growth and development. In the past five years we have laid the basis both in terms of legal instruments and programmes for addressing the legacy of our past.

In my policy statement dated 11 February 2000, I clearly outlined the following: that we continue our commitment to the Government’s objective set in the RDP document - to increase access to land, particularly agricultural state land, for those who were previously disadvantaged.

A number of hon members will remember that in the RDP document we said we would release 30% of farm land to those who were previously disadvantaged. This was our ultimate objective, which we still stand by, but which we have not been able to meet so far. However, we cannot meet this objective unless we work together, in partnership, with those who are current landowners and those who are aspiring to own. I also outlined the need to accelerate the integration of the work of the two departments within the Ministry, particularly land and agriculture, as well as to formulate policies for the implementation of our land reform, which continues to be our challenge. We are also saying to ourselves that we need to consolidate and rationalise land administration laws in respect of land reform in our country, as well as creating a system of land tenure and statutory rights that can be understood by all.

The Budget Vote of the Department of Land Affairs represents one of the key instruments in the delivery of our core objectives. In presenting the Budget Vote, I will begin by indicating the achievements that have been made, the challenges that continue to confront us and the programmes and budgetary implications in dealing with this. Delivery under the restitution programmes has shown steady progress. This has been reflected in the exponential increase in the number of settled claims, from 41 claims settled in March 1999 to the 3 919 claims which had been settled by 3 April

1. I want to say that this is indeed an indication of how we have hit the ground running.

To this extent, I would like to thank the regional commissioners and the Land Claims Commission, particularly those who have worked to ensure that we meet the deadline we set ourselves, of that 3 000 claims by 30 March. We have actually exceeded that. The improved pace of delivery in land restitution is becoming more evident as more claims are concluded and, where possible, people are returning to the land. Those who do not want to return are given their due compensation.

Recently, a restitution agreement totalling about R15 million was signed with the Putfontein landowners in the North West, resulting in the restoration of land to the communities that were forcibly removed. Progress has also been made in negotiating a settlement of claims in cases such as Pelcrown in Port Elizabeth, Schmidtsdrift in the Northern Cape, Sophiatown in Gauteng and Paynville. We shall continue with this pace and ensure that, as far as possible, we deal with the backlog of the claims that we still have in the restitution process.

I must say that I am mindful of some of the difficulties that the commissioners in the different provinces have experienced, but, also, I think it is correct to indicate that we do realise that there were certain problems in terms of the performance of some of the commissioners, which we have actually resolved, as expressed by hon members from the Northern Province and Mpumalanga. We have not been deaf to their concerns, but we have actually acted.

In a growing number of cases, local authorities, particularly, have seen that restitution can benefit development in their own areas. A concerted effort has been made to increase their involvement and that of other sectors of society to combine their efforts in bringing about the resolution of claims and promoting reconciliation.

I would like to indicate that the case which we will be settling on Sunday, 16 April in East London, the West Bank claim, has actually been a claim on which we have worked together with local authorities and the Department of Housing. When those communities go back to their land, they will not just go to a barren piece of land, but they will go back to land with infrastructure and housing development.

This recent experience will serve as a demonstration of the fact that, indeed, a comprehensive, well-designed and targeted land reform programme can serve as a basis for economic transformation, social cohesion and development.

A policy on a standard settlement offer for urban claims is now being debated. This will allow even greater acceleration of claims delivery.

In support of the restitution process, preliminary budgets of R149,5 million for 2001 and R187,9 million for 2002 have been made available. An amount of R100 million is due to be spent in 2000. We hope that we will be able to live up to our standard in ensuring that these budgeted amounts will be spent in record time.

Concerning the restitution process, priorities for the next two years will focus on speeding up the settlement of restitution claims, reviewing the current methods of calculating monetary value, reducing administrative costs through closer collaboration with other relevant departments so that we can mobilise and use available Government resources, refocusing our efforts in settling rural claims in particular, and restructuring the restitution process to enable the speeding up of the settlement of such claims.

As a department we have committed ourselves to another important programme, namely that of tenure reform. A legislative land reform programme was initiated which integrates land reform legislation. The guiding principles which will inform this proposed legislation are: Redistribution and land tenure reform that is in line with the constitutional provision of equality, in order to ensure that everybody can have a title to his or her land; an integrated approach which links land redistribution to tenure reform, thus providing land as well as security of tenure; the promotion of co-operative governance and integration between the different spheres of government and other departments; and a unitary, nonracial system of land rights administration in South Africa. This is what we hope to achieve with the new legislation.

Communal land is another matter we need to deal with in South Africa. I think one of the challenges that we face is that, as a country, we still remain - particularly at Government level, I would say - a nominee of tribal land, where we still act as a trustee. In respect of any development that takes place in tribal communities, Government still acts as trustee and decides whether the community can enter into whatever form of developmental partnership. I am sure that, as a new democracy, we will ensure that this situation changes. However, as we review the situation, we need to ensure that we work closer with traditional communities and their leaders in finding a better way to retain the security of tenure of those communities while, at the same time, allowing for development objectives to be realised in those areas.

Groups of farmers, as well as those people who seek other forms of development, have expressed their frustration when it comes to land in communal areas. Because there are no statutory rights currently in place, those communities do not have access to the financial services that any city dweller can access. This poses a hindrance. I would say iinkosi zethu [our chiefs] would be far more helpful in working with us to resolve the tenure system in communal land areas. I would venture to say that, as a woman, I hope the issue of gender equality is taken into account when resolving this problem, particularly as we know that, in a number of our communities, there are households led by women. There is another important matter with regard to state land management that I want to refer to. We agreed with our MECs that state agricultural land will be administered by the provincial departments of agriculture, through a power of attorney which will be given to the responsible MECs. This will enable us to move speedily with our programmes for farmer development and economic growth in agriculture.

It will also shorten the administrative process where decisions, which can be taken at local level, have to go up to Pretoria to be finalised by the Minister. I think it is important to indicate that, as part of our working together with the Department of Agriculture, we in Land Affairs have agreed that we will strive to ensure that young people and women are targeted as beneficiaries when we implement a farmer settlement programme.

We will also ensure that, where possible, we endeavour to give human resource development and capacity-building support to those who will be put on land as new beneficiaries.

Other matters within this budget will be dealt with by the Deputy Minister with regard to the land survey as well as the deeds and special planning.

In conclusion, I would like to thank the chairperson of the select committee and other members for the way in which they were able to interact with us on the budget review. We do note that the time was not enough and it is our hope that, during this year, there will be more dynamic contact, because they are our ears and eyes as well as being the ears and eyes of the MECs of the provinces to ensure that we bring synergy into this portfolio because it is one system which is not fragmented.

I would also like to thank the Deputy Minister for the support he continues to give, as well as his leadership in the areas of his responsibilities both in the area of land and agriculture. I thank the directors-general as well as the officials from other parastatals who have been very useful and who have really worked hard. I think they deserve leave because of the way in which they have been pushed to ensure that we achieve the objectives that we have achieved so far. [Applause.]

Mnr H G VAN RENSBURG (Wes-Kaap): Agb Voorsitter, baie dankie vir die geleentheid om in u Raad te mag optree. Ek wil my toespraak die naam gee van Landbou reik uit'', oftewelAgriculture reaches out’’ in Engels.

Ek wil baie dankie sê aan die agb Minister, Thoko Didiza, en aan adv Dirk du Toit vir hulle vars en nuwe benadering tot landbou. Ek wil ook dankie sê aan my mede-LUR’e vir hulle gees van samewerking.

Landbou in hierdie provinsie skep werk vir duisende mense in die landelike gebiede, en ons kan geklassifiseer word as een van die mees gevorderde streke in Afrika. Dit is hoofsaaklik te danke aan die uitvoergerigtheid van die vrugte- en wynbedryf. Ons landbou kan egter nie die inherente risiko’s van die bedryf ontwyk nie. Hiervan is die afgelope maande van brande en rampe ‘n voldonge bewys. Dít en die vinnig veranderende mark maak die modernste tegnologie nodig om produkte en markpryse te stabiliseer.

Die Organisasie van die Verenigde Nasies oor Voedsel en Landbou is van mening dat as ons die sukses van sommige Asiatiese en Afrikalande in ag neem, dan behoort regerings ten minste 25% van hul begrotings aan landbou en landelike ontwikkelingsprogramme te bestee. Ek glo minister Thoko Didiza sal die woordjie wat ek by die Kabinet daarvoor probeer doen, waardeer. Landbou word nog steeds beskou as die bron van ekonomiese groei in Afrika en die grootste teenvoeter vir hongersnood en armoede. Landbou voorsien 70% van die werkgeleenthede in Afrika suid van die Sahara.

In die Wes-Kaap se susterprovinsie Beiere word 5% van hulle begroting aan landbou bestee, terwyl ons in die Wes-Kaap net 0,67% van ons begroting aan landbou spandeer. Vir die volgende boekjaar, die 2000-01 boekjaar, is die begroting landbou in die Wes-Kaap van R77,8 miljoen verhoog na R84,7 miljoen, ‘n verhoging van R6,9 miljoen waarvoor ek baie dankbaar is. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)

[Mr H G VAN RENSBURG (Western Cape): Hon Chairperson, thank you very much for the opportunity to speak in your House. I want to call my speech ``Agriculture reaches out’’.

I want to say thank you very much to the hon the Minister, Thoko Didiza, and Adv Dirk du Toit for their new approach to agriculture. I also want to say thank you to my fellow MECs for their spirit of co-operation.

Agriculture in this province creates work for thousands of people in the rural areas, and we can be classified as one of the most advanced regions in Africa. This is mainly thanks to the export-driven fruit and wine industry. Our agriculture cannot escape the inherent risks of the industry. The fires and disasters in recent months are irrefutable proof of this. This and the fast-changing market require the most modern technology in order to stabilise products at market prices.

The food and agriculture organisation of the United Nations is of the view that if we take the success of certain Asiatic and African countries into consideration, governments should spend at least 25% of their budgets on agricultural and rural development programmes. I believe that Minister Thoko Didiza will appreciate the word that I am trying to put in with the Cabinet in this regard. Agriculture is still regarded as being the source of economic growth in Africa and the greatest counter to famine and poverty. Agriculture provides for 70% of the job opportunities in Africa south of the Sahara.

In the Western Cape’s sister province, Bavaria, 5% of their budget is spent on agriculture, while we in the Western Cape spend only 0,67% of our budget on agriculture. The budget for the coming financial year, the 2000-2001 financial year, in the Western Cape has been increased from R77,8 million to R84,7 million, an increase of R6,9 million, for which I am very grateful.]

Agriculture in the Western Cape reaches out to other countries. In order to stay at the forefront of technological developments in agriculture and thus to stay at the top of the treadmill, we are currently in the process of embarking on a number of joint projects with institutes from abroad. Not only has this international experience shown that in doing so the cost of technology development can be significantly lowered, but it will result in the most up-to-date technology being available to our farmers.

Die doel van die wetgewing met betrekking tot produkte van oorsprong is om ‘n bemagtigende en ‘n vrywillige raamwerk vir landbouers te ontwikkel waarmee hulle hul produkte kan differensieer. Op hierdie manier kan ‘n paar van die probleme van die plaasprobleem omseil word. Aangesien tradisionele produkte grootliks aan die orde van die dag is, sal voorheen benadeelde gemeenskappe die meeste voordeel uit hierdie wetgewing trek. Konsepwetgewing word binnekort vir insette van die publiek gepubliseer.

Landbou in die Wes-Kaap reik uit na nuwe boere omdat dit vir ons ‘n saak van erns is dat ons nuwe landbouers suksesvol gevestig word. Hierin sal ons die nasionale Departemente van Landbou en Grondsake ten volle ondersteun. Ons sal ook gevestigde nuwe boere aan die hand neem, bystaan en oplei om winsgewend te wees.

Ek wil ‘n beroep op die Regering doen om staatsgrond aan provinsies beskikbaar te stel sodat ons opkomende boere so gou moontlik kan vestig. Ek wil die Minister bedank vir wat sy nounet gesê het. Ons sal graag met haar hieraan wil saamwerk.

Grondeise moet so gou moontlik geprosesseer en afgehandel word. In die afgelope vyf jaar het die Kommissie op Herstel van Grondeise Suid-Afrika bykans R75 miljoen gekos. In hierdie tyd is 3 000 van die 63 400 eise afgehandel. Teen hierdie tempo - en minister Didiza het dit geëskaleer en dit gaan beter - as ‘n mens dit vooruit projekteer, gaan dit nog ten minste 20 jaar neem om af te handel. Dít sal ons drasties moet versnel. Ons moenie toelaat dat frustrasies ontstaan omdat die proses te stadig is nie. As grondhervorming in Suid-Afrika te stadig plaasvind, kan landbouers nie beskuldig word nie, maar sal die Regering self die skuld moet dra.

Dit is lofwaardig om te sien hoeveel inisiatiewe gegenereer word deur landbouers om hulle plaaswerkers te bemagtig. Daarvoor is ek dankbaar en trots op die landbouers van die Wes-Kaap. Hulle is nie deur wetgewing hiertoe verbind nie, maar doen dit uit hulle eie vrye wil.

Plaaswerkers speel ‘n onontbeerlike rol in die ekonomie van die land. Kom ons gee erkenning vir die belangrike werk wat hulle doen. Daar kan gerus meer met hulle gepraat word, en minder oor hulle gepraat word. Daar kan gerus meer vir hulle gedoen word, en minder wette oor hulle gemaak word.

Ek wil die besetting van plase in Zimbabwe ten sterkste veroordeel. As gewelddadige intimidasie plaasvind, mag ons nie siende blind wees nie. Dit is ons plig om die regering, sy burgers en hulle eiendom te beskerm. As ons verantwoordelik wil optree, ontwikkeling en beleggings in ons streek wil bevorder, sal ons hierdie onheilspellende stilte oor die gebeure in Zimbabwe moet verbreek. Kom ons wees ook hiér die leier in Afrika en bedien ons bure met goeie raad, en skep so vertroue onder internasionale beleggers en wêreldleiers. President Mugabe dobbel nie net met die toekoms van sy eie land nie, maar ook met die toekoms van die hele Suider-Afrika.

Ek wil ‘n beroep op president Mbeki doen om hom in die openbaar hieroor uit te spreek. Menseregte mag nie so geskend word nie. Laat ons almal saamwerk om grondhervorming in Suidelike Afrika ordelik te laat plaasvind. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)

[The objective of the legislation relating to products of origin is to develop an empowering and voluntary framework for agriculturalists by means of which they can differentiate their products. In this way a few of the problems relating to the farm problem can be circumvented. Since traditional products are in the main the order of the day the previously disadvantaged communities will benefit most from this legislation. Draft legislation will shortly be published for input by the public.

Agriculture in the Western Cape reaches out to new farmers, because we are serious about our new agriculturalists being settled successfully. In this respect we will lend our full support to the national Departments of Agriculture and Land Affairs. We will also take our established new farmers by the hand, assist them and train them in order to become profitable.

I want to appeal to the Government to make state land available to the provinces so that we can settle emerging farmers as quickly as possible. I want to thank the Minister for what she has just said. We should like to co- operate with her in this regard.

Land claims must be processed and completed as quickly as possible. In the last five years the Commission on Restitution of Land Rights has cost South Africa almost R75 million. During this time 3 000 of the 63 400 claims have been finalised. At this rate - Minister Didiza has accelerated this and progress has improved - if one were to project this in respect of the future it would take at least another 20 years to finalise. We will have to accelerate this dramatically. We must not allow frustrations to arise because the process is too slow. If land reform in South Africa takes place too slowly agriculturalists cannot be accused, but the Government itself will have to take the blame.

It is laudable to see how many initiatives are generated by agriculturalists to empower their farmworkers. I am grateful for that and proud of the agriculturalists of the Western Cape. They are not compelled by legislation to do this, they do it of their own free will.

Farmworkers play an essential role in the country’s economy. Let us recognise the important work that they do. One may very well talk to them more and talk about them less. One may very well do more for them and make fewer laws about them.

I want to condemn the occupation of farms in Zimbabwe in the strongest possible terms. If violent intimidation takes place we may not be wearing blinkers. It is our duty to protect the government, its citizens and their property. If we want to be responsible, promote development and investment in our region we will have to break this ominous silence concerning events in Zimbabwe. Let us also be the leader in Africa in this respect and give our neighbours good advice, and in that way create confidence with international investors and world leaders. President Mugabe is not only gambling with the future of his own country, but also with the future of the whole Southern Africa.

I want to appeal to President Mbeki to voice his opinion about this publicly. Human rights may not be violated in this way. Let all of us co- operate so that land reform in Southern Africa can take place in an orderly fashion.]

In the spirit of the African renaissance, agriculture in the Western Cape reaches out to Africa. In order to accelerate the settlement of new farmers, I believe we should learn from the experience of other African countries. To this end I have just returned from an investigation into the settlement of small-scale farmers in Botswana, Kenya and Tanzania. I had extensive discussions with the Ministers of agriculture of the three countries, and visited various smallholder settlements in rural areas.

High-profile government leaders received this provinces’ outreach initiative to Africa with unexpected praise and support. As far as we travelled, South Africa was seen as the measure for Africa. Failure in South Africa spells failure for Africa, and by the same token, success in South Africa spells success for Africa.

Six months ago I announced the development of the Doring River and Olifants River Irrigation Scheme as a dream project for this province. It now has the status of a provincial megaproject. I am proud to say that we have progressed significantly with this project. Next month Cabinet will make a decision on the allocation of R3 million towards the investigation of further scenarios. The importance of this scheme lies in its enormous job- creation potential for affected rural people and the settlement of new farmers.

Voorsitter, ten slotte wil ek sê: Landbou wil uitreik en die hand uitsteek na alle ander sektore van die ekonomie. Kom ons laat Suid-Afrika werk. Daar is net een manier om dit te doen en dit is deur die moue op te rol, die hand aan die ploeg te slaan, nuwe grond te breek en met geloof ons dagtaak te verrig. Deur hard te werk, sal ons Suid-Afrika laat werk. [Applous.] (Translation of Afrikaans paragraph follows.)

[Chairperson, in conclusion I want to say: Agriculture will reach out and extend a hand to all other sectors of the economy. Come, let us make South Africa work. There is only one way of doing this and that is by rolling up our sleeves, taking up the plough, breaking new ground and doing our daily task in faith. By working hard we will make South Africa work. [Applause.]]

Rev P MOATSHE: Chairperson, hon Minister and Deputy Minister for Agriculture and Land Affairs, and members - both special delegates from provinces here present today and permanent delegates - the North West is largely rural. It is within these rural parts of the province that development has to take place. The majority of the indigenous people were dispossessed of their land, even before 1913. Restoring the land back to its rightful owners is therefore one of the main challenges to the new democratic Government.

If one travels across the province, one becomes aware of the large number of people who are homeless. They are homeless because they have been landless for many years. This has impoverished the indigenous people of that province. The ANC Freedom Charter states: ``The people shall share.’’

This means that the people of South Africa shall share in the God-given resources so that there shall be equity and a better life for all its people. We are saying of the North West that if the haves are prepared to share with the have-nots, there will be stability in the province. The commitment of some people such as Mr Roger Roman, a white landowner in the Hartebeespoort Dam area, is indicative of the goodwill among many white South Africans, who are prepared to share with the have-nots. He decided to give his land away, but had to embark on a six-week fast to convince authorities to allow him to do so. He willingly signed over part of his 13 hectare small-holding to 11 families despite the protestation of his neighbours and the Hartebeespoort Dam local council. His action should be a challenge to local authorities and landowners across South Africa to transfer land voluntarily to displaced communities in order to speed up land reform.

Another significant occurrence in the North West was the ending of a 10- year-old legal dispute between the royal Bafokeng nation and Impala Platinum Mine Company. This settlement brings the curtain down on a dispute that has been there for the last century. During the apartheid regime the Bafokeng nation had running battles with the former Bophuthatswana leader, Lucas Mangope, over this land and royalties from the mining houses. The people of the North West want stability in their province and in the entire country. However, the stability will only be long-lasting if the landless people of the North West are given access to land and control over their own land. Access to and control over land is extremely important for the rural poor of the North West.

For them the land is not only a productive resource and a collateral for bank credit, but it also builds the confidence of rural people. It converts them from the status of vulnerable to potential actors who constitute an integral part of a society and its development. In other words, land is their very entry point to social and human development.

Opposition parties have argued in the past, and no doubt will do so again in this Council today, that the department of Agriculture and Land Affairs has not moved speedily enough to implement its land reform policies. This budget, among other things, endeavours to address the backlog. To these parties I just want to issue a friendly reminder that it was their immoral policies, and support for these policies, that were responsible for the large-scale dispossession and consequently extreme unequal distribution of land in our country.

The minority government and its opposition parties understood that the racial division of land in South Africa was a fundamental precondition for the continuation of white privilege. They knew that white farmers would eventually form one of the most important strata of support for successive white minority governments and privilege. In return for their support, white farmers received large acres of land and huge subsidies, which facilitated the development of white-owned agriculture. This is the reason we have so many evictions of farmworkers in the North West province, more than ever before, by farmers fearing the laws enacted by this Parliament.

On the other hand, blacks were dispossessed of their land and black-owned agriculture suffered years of neglect. A pattern emerged in which some sectors of white-owned agriculture became highly commercialised and productive, while most black-owned agriculture continued to use traditional subsistence methods, which brought diminished returns. The tragic consequences of this unequal distribution of land and agricultural resources continue to haunt us to this very day.

I am not surprised at the opposition parties’ response to the Government’s land reform programme. It is characteristic of their inability to understand the enormous challenges facing our democratic Government to transform the fundamentally inequal relations in our society with the limited resources available at its disposal, and in particular the challenges facing the Department of Agriculture and Land Affairs in implementing its land reform programme. Our land reform programme is not just a question of giving land to people; rather it is linked to a more strategic long-term objective, namely the development of the productive potential of our rural population, which is a critical precondition for sustainable poverty reduction in South Africa.

A further challenge is the commitment we have made to carry out our land reform policies in a manner that will not compromise South Africa’s position as one of the leading nations in the area of agricultural production. Adding to the above constraints is the fact that our democratic Government, unlike the apartheid government, respects the rights to property, which prevents it from embarking on a process of large-scale expropriation. In their zeal to criticise Government and to score cheap political points, opposition parties deliberately overlooked the many positive steps taken by Government to implement its land and agricultural reform policies. They do not tell their supporters that the ANC Government has gone much further than any other South African government in implementing a far-reaching programme of agricultural liberalisation. They do not tell their supporters that, as a result of this programme, barriers to market entry, both domestic as well as for export, have been removed, price incentives have shifted towards high-value labour-intensive crops, and land prices have declined dramatically.

It is indeed true that what is happening in Zimbabwe today should be a learning process for us as well. We should look into ways and means of approaching the question of land, and that is the reason I specifically say:

Motho ke motho ka batho ba bang. [A person is a person because of other people.]

When one recognises the co-existence of one’s neighbour, that one’s neighbour should also live, then one is busy creating a stable futureÿ …

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! Hon member, your speaking time has expired.

Rev P MOATSHE: … and that is extremely important. The Gospel also says: ``You must love your neighbour as you love yourself,’’ and those who have land in excess should be prepared to share it with the landless. [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Hon member, your speaking time has expired.

Rev P MOATSHE: By doing so we will avoid what is happening in Zimbabwe today. [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! Your speaking time has expired, hon member.

Rev P MOATSHE: Twenty years after they failed to address the issue, they are being confronted by a violent situation.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! Hon member, your speaking time has expired now. [Laughter.] [Applause.]

Mev A M VERSVELD: Mnr die Voorsitter, in teenstelling met die veronderstelling van die voorsitter van hierdie komitee gaan ek hom vandag baie teleurstel. Ek gaan nie probeer goedkoop politieke punte aanteken soos wat hy nou net gedoen het nie.

Inteendeel, ek wil die Minister baie gelukwens met die dramatiese verandering van rigting met betrekking tot die nuwe toetreders tot die landbou van ‘n toestand van bestaans- en oorlewingsboerdery na die ontwikkeling van kommersiële swart boere.

Mnr Mpalata het tereg gesê swart boere wil nie net kleinboere bly nie; hulle wil getel word onder die grootstes in Suid-Afrika, ook onder die grootstes in die wêreld. Dit is moontlik as ons kyk na die landbougrond in Suid-Afrika, wat oor die algemeen baie goed ontwikkel is. Selfs plekke soos die Knersvlakte en Verneukpan is goed ontwikkel. Suid-Afrika hoef vir geen land terug te staan nie!

Die DP is dankbaar dat die fokus van grondhervorming merkbaar verskuif het van die aanteken van die aantal begunstigdes en hektaar uitgedeel na grondhervormingspraktyke wat lewensvatbaar en finansieel volhoubaar is. Die nuwe beleidsdirektiewe het gewys dat grondhermvorming nie kan slaag as dit nie op ‘n gekoördineerde en geïntegreerde wyse aangepak word nie.

Ek merk in die verslag van die direkteur-generaal dat hy sê:

Herverdeling van grond kan bydra tot groter gelykheid en toenemende effektiwiteit in die landelike sektor.

Hy meld verder dat die toelaagstelsel voortgaan, maar dat dit hersien sal word om toegang tot grond te verbeter volgens die kategorie waarvoor die toelaag bestem is. Dit is egter nie waar dit ophou nie.

Wat my bekommer, is dat ek nêrens in die begroting merk dat daar voorsiening gemaak word vir bestaansboere nie, en hulle bestaan wel. Hulle is ‘n gegewe, net soos die bestaansvisserman. Geen voorsiening is gemaak vir die basiese behoeftes van landbou nie, en daar is geen voorsiening vir basiese navorsing nie.

Ons neem met besorgdheid kennis van die feit dat daar ‘n 15,9%-afname in die beraamde besteding vir die boekjaar 2000-01 gaan wees. Ons kan dit by herhaling sê: enige plek in die wêreld, enige tyd in die geskiedenis is die hulp aan die armstes ‘n welsynfunksie, maar dan moet die begroting voldoende wees.

Met die fisieke aspek van hulp aan die armes kan landbou vir seker help, maar ek glo as ‘n mens iets aanpak, veral in die landbou, moet jy daarmee deurdruk, maak nie saak waar die fondse vandaan kom nie. Indien ‘n projek nie deurgevoer word nie, het dit tot gevolg armlastiges op die platteland, die vernietiging van die lewens van die mense, die vernietiging van die bodem, en maatskaplike probleme wat geslagte gaan neem om te herstel.

Die oplossing lê dus nie by landbou of by grondsake nie, maar by die vestiging, opleiding, ondersteuning en opvolging van mense. Ons kan nie net mense vestig nie, alhoewel daar ongeveer 25 miljoen hektaar staatsgrond is. Ons wil nie hê die grond moet ongebruik of onbewerk lê nie. Zimbabwe is ‘n voorbeeld van waar mense net gevestig is. Dr Dambaza het in 1992 gesê, toe hy uitgevra is oor ondersteuningsprojekte en grondvestiging: ``Elke Zimbabwiër weet hoe ‘n mielie lyk en hoe ‘n mielie geplant word,’’ en kyk hoe lyk Zimbabwe vandag! Staatsgrond moet benut word deur spesifieke en gefokusde projekte.

Die Minister, kan ek sien, is ernstig oor samewerking en vennootskappe. Boere en georganiseerde landbou is só begerig om betrokke te raak. Nampo is byvoorbeeld betrokke by inisiatiewe in Transkei, die Vrystaat en Gauteng. Die Landboubesigheidskamer het reeds 40 projekte onderneem, sommige kleiner en ander aansienlik groter. Werkbare vennootskapsmodelle wat reeds geïmplementeer word, is kontrakboerdery, satellietboerdery en vennootskappe. Hulp word ook verleen by wyse van voorligting en bemarking.

Die waarde van die sekerheid van eiendom en die sekerheid van transportaktes moet nie onderskat word nie, want dit bied sekuriteit en bedingingsmag in die sin van lenings. Die Europese platteland was armlastig tydens die feodale periode. Net kloosters het toe sekerheidsreg geniet. Toe die feodale stelsel begin verkrummel, het mense eiendomsreg verkry en die toestande op die platteland het drasties verbeter.

Daarom is dit baie belangrik om stelsels te ontwikkel, in samewerking met die tradisionele owerhede, waarvolgens die een wat die risiko neem om die grond te bewerk - nie noodwendig die persoon wat daar bly nie - die grond kan huur, al is dit teen ‘n huurpag van 30 jaar of 50 jaar, sodat hy dit uiteindelik kan besit.

Daar is ‘n groot bohaai oor Esta, en alhoewel daar mense ís wat verneuk word - ek praat dit ook nie goed nie, ek dink dit is ‘n skande - gaan dit oor die reg van ‘n beperkte aantal mense. Vir my is die werklike probleem die miljoene mense wat afhanklik is van die bestaan op die grond, maar geen wetlik afdwingbare reg het om die grond wat hulle bewerk te besit nie en dit daarom ook nie kan ontwikkel nie. [Tyd verstreke.] [Applous.] (Translation of Afrikaans speech follows.)

[Mrs A M VERSVELD: Mr Chairman, in contrast with the supposition of the chairperson of this committee, today I am going to disappoint him terribly. I am not going to try to score cheap political points, as he has just done.

On the contrary, I want to congratulate the Minister on the dramatic change of direction in respect of the new entrants to the agriculture from a situation of subsistence and survival farming to the development of commercial black farmers.

Mr Mpalata quite rightly said black farmers did not want to remain small farmers; they wanted to be counted among the greatest in South Africa, also among the greatest in the world. This is possible if we look at the agricultural land in South Africa, which is very well developed in general. Even places such as the Knersvlakte and Verneukpan are well developed. South Africa need not take a back seat to any country!

The DP is grateful that the focus of land reform has visibly moved from the noting of the number of beneficiaries and the hectares handed out to land reform practices that are viable and financially sustainable. The new policy directives have shown that land reform cannot succeed if it is not tackled in a co-ordinated and integrated manner.

I notice that in the report of the director-general he says:

Redistribution of land can contribute to greater equality and increasing effectiveness in the rural sector.

He furthermore says that the grant system will continue, but that it will be reviewed to improve access to land according to the category for which the grant is intended. This is not where it ends, however.

What concerns me is that I do not notice anywhere in the budget that provision has been made for subsistence farmers, and they do in fact exist. They are a given, just like the subsistence fishermen. No provision has been made for the basic needs of agriculture, and no provision has been made for basic research.

We take note, with concern, of the fact that there is going to be a 15,9% decline in the estimated expenditure for the 2000-01 financial year. We can say repeatedly: Any place in the world, any time in history, aid to the poorest remains a welfare function, but then the budget should be adequate.

With the physical aspect of assistance to the poorest agriculture can certainly help, but I believe that if one tackles anything, in agriculture in particular, one should keep at it, no matter where the funds come from. If a project is not followed through it results in indigence in the rural areas, the destruction of the lives of people, the destruction of the earth and social problems that would take generations to restore.

The solution therefore does not lie with agriculture or land affairs, but the settlement, training, support and follow-up of people. We cannot just settle people, although there are about 25 million hectares of state land. We do not want the land to go unused or uncultivated. Zimbabwe is an example of where people were only settled. Dr Dambaza said in 1992, when he was asked about support projects and land settlement: ``Every Zimbabwean knows what a mealie looks like and how a mealie must be planted,’’ and look at Zimbabwe today! State land must be utilised by way of specific and focused projects. The Minister, I can see, is serious about co-operation and partnerships. Farmers and organised agriculture are so keen on becoming involved. Nampo, for example, is involved in initiatives in the Transkei, the Free State and Gauteng. The Agricultural Business Chamber has already undertaken 40 projects, some smaller and some considerably larger. Viable models for partnerships that are already being implemented are contract farming, satellite farming and partnerships. Assistance is also being rendered by way of extension and marketing.

The value of the safety of property and the safety of title deeds should not be underrated, because this offers security and bargaining power in the sense of loans. The European rural areas were poverty-stricken during the feudal period. Only convents had certainty of tenure at the time. When the feudal system started crumbling people obtained property rights, and conditions in the rural areas improved dramatically.

For that reason it is very important to develop systems, in co-operation with the traditional authorities, according to which the one who takes the risk of cultivating the land - not necessarily the one who lives there - may hire the land, even if this is in terms of a 30-year or 50-year leasehold, so that he may eventually own it.

A great fuss has arisen concerning Esta, and although there are people who are being swindled - I am not defending this, I think it is a disgrace - it is about the right of a limited number of people. To me the real problem concerns the millions of people who depend on subsistence on the land, but who have no legally enforceable right to own the land that they cultivate and for that reason cannot develop it either. [Time expired.] [Applause.]]

Mr B TAABE (Mpumalanga): Chairperson, the hon the Minister for Agriculture and Land Affairs, the Deputy Minister, hon members of the NCOP, special delegates from various provinces, ladies and gentlemen, although I am not a capitalist nor aspiring to become one, Adam Smith tells us the following, and I quote:

What improves the circumstances of the greater part can never be regarded as an inconvenience to the whole. No society can surely be flourishing and happy of which the far greater part of the members are poor and miserable.

When I look around me I see that it is there, the human misery that afflicts my people, our people, the agony of hunger etched on our children’s faces, the look in the eyes of young people, the despair of time and the bewilderment of people cast aside. All of these things are clearly a reality to our people. All of these afflictions are consequences of the racial prejudice and discrimination that our people must contend with painfully on a day-to-day basis. All of these things are confirmed by a villager in one of the most remote areas, in Badplaas in Mpumalanga, when he observes that, and I quote: ``Land is a source of security. Access to land must lead to a better life.’’

Victims of past draconian laws which created serious problems of landlessness are continuously watching with keen interest the response of their elected public representatives with relation to land restitution and the restoration of land to its rightful owners.

Our ongoing responsibility to improve the quality of the collective life of our people compels us to find innovative and concrete ways by which we can turn the miserable conditions into golden opportunities for the future. This House therefore must note the gargantuan strides made by the hon the Minister and her department to expedite, or rather accelerate, the process of land restitution throughout the length and breadth of South Africa. Equally pleasing is the approach by the hon the Minister and her department to create a single authority and accountability for the department and the Commission for Land Restitution. This integration, we believe, will inevitably eliminate the complex and frustrating administrative processes that in the past defeated the purpose for which land restitution and restoration was created.

We are confident that these processes will now fast-track and radically change the lives of our people in communities such as Doornkop, Kaalfontein, Inkbos, Komatipoort, Kaapsehoop in Nelspruit and Mgendeni in Barberton. These are all areas in Mpumalanga.

The recent floods that swept through many parts of Mpumalanga have undoubtedly created immense agony which, to this very day, is still reverberating in every corner of the province, further exacerbating our problems. We must therefore, through this august House, engage proactively with the hon the Minister to find innovative solutions to the problems brought about by the disaster in our province. Likewise, we should begin to seriously uplift black emerging small farmers who were hardest hit by the floods to prepare them for their gradual yet systematic entry into the formal commercial farming sector, through the provision of financial assistance, the marketing of their products and the creation of a market infrastructure to facilitate the market access of such isolated farmers.

The promotion of black and young entrants into agriculture, particularly women, should lead to the development of successful small and medium-sized agricultural enterprises in Mpumalanga. This must further contribute to enhancing income from and job opportunities through the co-ordinated and systematic use of state agricultural land. In this way we shall be sending a ray of hope to ordinary prospective black farmers in the far-flung areas of the Nkomaas region and areas such as Driekoppies and Kamhluhla. Then we can boldly and unequivocally declare that we have indeed delivered and bettered the lives of our people through none other than the glorious progressive army of our people, the ANC.

The term of office for regional claims commissioners expires in June of this year. In Mpumalanga we are worried about the pace of delivery in the area of land restitution. It is our well-considered view that the appointment of people rooted in our communities, who know and have a clearer understanding of the sufferings of our people, particularly in rural communities, should be expedited to ensure the fast-tracking of the land restitution process in our province. We will monitor this process to ensure that our people are not taken for a ride this time around. Accordingly, we wish the present incumbent in the post well in her future endeavours.

Equally worrying is the hypocrisy of certain sections of the white media and right-wing politicians and parties such as the DP, who continuously remind us, and the hon the President, of the situation in countries such as Zimbabwe. However, they are dead silent about the persecution of black farmers and dwellers in their own country.

The message we are sending to them is that they should clean their dirty and stinking back yards first before pointing fingers at other people.

As a fitting tribute to the victims of land dispossession in South Africa, South Africa’s poetic and most prolific writer, Don Mattera, had something to say to those whose struggles we are today celebrating. Failure to recognise this would definitely be bordering on political hara-kiri on the part of such right wing parties and politicians.

We are saying this to remind all of us that political freedom without fundamentally redressing the inequities in land is meaningless to the landless villager in Mbuzini, Mpumalanga. Don Mattera had this to say, and I quote:

Remember to call at my grave When freedom finally Walks the land So that I may rise To tread familiar paths To see broken chains Fallen prejudice Forgotten injury Pardoned pains And when my eyes have filled their sight Do not run away for fright If I crumble to dust again It will only be the bliss Of a long-awaited dream That bids me rest When freedom finally walks the land.

Mr U D MOILOA (Gauteng): Hon Deputy Chairperson, hon Minister, hon Deputy Minister and hon members, Gauteng is known as the economic hub of South Africa’s industry, and therefore is somewhat irrelevant when speaking of agriculture, or so many people say. I am going to be speaking about issues which I think are important for us in tracing the footprints of our forefathers and mothers.

Exactly 348 years and five days ago, human beings of another colour, length of hair and physical shape arrived on the shores of this city, a few metres from where we are sitting today. The colour and shape of their noses or length of their hair had really nothing to do whether they were any different from other human beings.

An adventurous spirit in the human species propelled these human beings’ needs to ensure their wellbeing and socioeconomic development. As if the dawn of the African sun would later open the skies on that historic day for human beings to discover themselves and their own kind for future peaceful existence, the dream which never was, what began as a shipwreck facilitated social interaction of human beings with each other in a manner not consistent with the complete human culture and organisation of the society which informed how the land was preserved as a collective resource and asset for all to coexist in without social or political contradictions. The social interactions unfortunately developed into 348 years of colonialism and oppression of man by man and finally led to the forceful and violent seizure of land by a few pitted against many.

They were warmly welcomed and introduced to the comfort of a complete humanity and the socioeconomic organisation of the people they found there. Yet what they did to people in this part of the earth has become a total contradiction of that basic human quality called in the African languages ``ubuntu-botho’’.

Off the shores, there was complete co-existence of man with himself, with the habitat which fulfilled plenty of needs for the sharing of wealth which nature has given to all the species which occupied this part of the earth. There was peace and harmony, and human beings regarded each other as human beings because of other human beings - motho ke motho ka batho. And so, life continued and the belly of earth provided all and sundry with an abundance of food, fruits, medicinal plants and the rest of the things which we all need for our wellbeing and development.

The invaders failed to adjust themselves to an otherwise very scarce quality of African humanity which they found amongst the stone-age Khoisan people of the Western Cape, the Xhosas in the east, the Zulus on the Natal Coast, the Tswanas in the north and many African groups in the far north. From wherever they came, they brought their shameful greed, which drove the indigenous people of our land from the fertile parts of our country into barren and inhabitable small portions of land. Those who remained were captured to be turned into slaves, whose sweat and sufferings built our country to what it is today.

The culture of greed and individualism, as opposed to collective ownership of land and the wealth it brings, is now part of the social system we are struggling to transform. Many of our people continue to be victims of this culture of greed, which stands as the very centre pillar of the social system which this budget intends to change, at an even faster pace, and they continue to be victimised by the legacy of apartheid colonialism in many rural areas of our land.

The scourge of poverty and hunger in the land of plenty, which they continue to suffer, justifies us gathering here this afternoon to map a way forward in this fiscal year to advance the dawn of the African century. It is only through the budget and the equitable distribution of the national fiscus, in a manner consistent with our programme of reconstruction and development, that we can indeed say that we are addressing the legacy of apartheid colonialism.

Hardly a day passes in many parts of our country without farmworkers and residents being evicted. Just on Sunday this week, Comrade Derek Hanekom and I attended a meeting of farmworkers and residents in the area of Broederstroom, in the north-west of Gauteng. For five hours we listened with disappointment and anger, because we heard that even though this honourable House had passed the Extension of Security of Tenure Act in 1997, three years later, white farmers were still evicting residents and workers off the land. This is contrary to what Rev Moatshe of the North West has just identified as a bad attitude demonstrated by one or two farmers in that part of the country. In the area of Gauteng a 68-year-old man was evicted from the farm he was born on and worked on for his whole life.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr M L Mushwana): Order! Your time has expired, hon member.

Mr U D MOILOA: Mr Chairperson, in conclusion I want to thank you for this opportunity.

Mr M BHABHA: Chairperson, for the information of the House …

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr M L Mushwana): Order! On what point are you rising, hon member?

Mr M BHABHA: It is a point of order and exigency.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr M L Mushwana): Order! That is not a point of order.

Ms Y BOTHA (Northern Cape): Mr Chairperson, hon Minister, hon members, hon special delegates, just a point of correction, I am not Mrs Botha, I am Miss Botha. It is indeed an honour to speak in this debate, that is the review of policy of the Minister for Agriculture and Land Affairs, and not that of Zimbabwe as some members seem to think.

The Northern Cape has benefited enormously from the land restitution and land reform processes initiated by this department. Communities robbed of their ancestral land, such as the Riemvasmakers, the Basters form Philandersbron, the Bathlaping from Schmidtsdrift and many others are eternally grateful to our democratically elected Goverment for making it possible to get back their land, taken away, of course, by the apartheid masters.

The Riemvasmakers are today a vibrant community. Houses have been built and the school is doing well. A few weeks ago, two young men who completed their university studies, became the first two Riemvasmakers who graduated since the return to their land in 1994. They are now studying for their postgraduate degrees.

Looking at the further development of the land, our next focus should be the development of the hectares of land at the mouth of the Molopo. This land is most suitable for crop planting, especially the planting of table grapes of export quality. We hope that, with the assistance of Land Affairs, this will be possible.

Platfontein and Schmidtsdrift are rapidly moving towards the realisation of our hopes. The development of infrastructure will be realised in this financial year. Some political parties try to gain political mileage from the restitution and development processes of these two areas. I would like to urge all political parties to work together and be supportive of these processes for establishing displaced communities.

The Mier community has acquired three farms through the land reform process, but are unhappy because of one of these farms, Klein Mier 1. People are alleging that the former owner, who is still living there, is removing infrastructure from the farm. Built-in cupboards, as well as fencing, have been reformed. No inventory list exists, although several requests have been made. I humbly request the Minister to look into the matter and assist us in eliminating all blockages or misunderstandings. The emerging farmers want to occupy the farm but we have persuaded them not to do so until we have taken the matter up. In August 1999 the portfolio committee of the Northern Cape held public hearings on the conditions of service of farmworkers in our province. According to my knowledge - and I speak under correction - we were the first province to do so. A copy of the committee’s report has been sent to the hon the Minister’s office, as well as to the office of the Minister of Labour.

During the public hearings several concerns were raised. Living conditions and salaries in most areas were measly and shocking. We are in the process of approaching the Human Rights Commission to investigate some of the complaints we received. Some farmers and farmworkers have actually gone a long way in developing their working relationship and having agreements on the conditions of service. The implementation of the Extension of Security of Tenure Act is widely welcomed in the Northern Cape.

The depopulation of the platteland is a concern in the Northern Cape. Squatter camps in towns such as Keimoes and Kimberley are growing, mostly populated by displaced farmworkers. Urgent attention needs to be given to this phenomenon, and assistance to emerging farmers, especially women, will stem the tide of the diaspora of our rural communities. Banks are closing in towns such as Carnavon. Emerging farmers must become commercial farmers. They should be nurtured in that direction in order to create jobs in rural areas and revive these economies.

The provision of water, electricity and infrastructure such as roads are factors that also need to be taken into consideration when addressing rural economies. Intergovernmental planning is essential in that regard. I think the hon the Minister has alluded to intergovernmental co-operation and working together in her speech to this House. The Northern Cape is thankful for the programmes and assistance to emerging farmers.

With the good rains the province has received, the Kalahari is green right up to the Hantam. Stock farmers will especially benefit from the good veld conditions. We did have some flood damage, but not to the extent that the other provinces have suffered. We realise that we are lucky in that regard. We would therefore like to support the Northern Province, Mpumalanga and other provinces in rebuilding the huge damage to infrastructure and the lives of our people.

When the Minister delivered her speech, she actually referred to the need for electricity to boost agricultural development. We are in the process of trying to see if we cannot get electricity to the Kalahari. The Minister is a regular visitor to the Northern Cape, so she knows that there are no roads, no electricity, and water is very scarce. If she could help us in lobbying to light up the Kalahari from the Namibian to the Botswana border, we would appreciate it very much. We would also appreciate it if we can get the support of this House.

This is an opportunity I cannot let slip through my fingers in that regard. [Laughter.] I am also very glad to hear that the power of attorney will be transferred to provincial MECs of agriculture in the administration of state land. That is indeed good news for us, which will also help emerging farmers, especially women in our rural areas, to become farmers and eventually become commercial farmers and participate in the market economy. [Applause.]

Mr H NKETU (Free State): Chairperson, hon Minister and Deputy Minister, members of the House, the Free State remains a leader in agriculture thus contributing significantly to food production and job creation. With these significant changes in the policy formulation, we hope that the input of 4,1% of gross domestic product and 13% of employment will change drastically.

The Free State has a dual agricultural economy consisting of a well- developed commercial sector which is predominantly white and very conservative, and a subsistence-oriented sector in the rural areas which is predominantly rural and African. The national department’s mission of ensuring the achievement of sustainable, equitable and efficient agricultural development in which Government will facilitate and encourage the development of the small farm sector and encourage a more diverse support system for farmers has, in my view, not yielded the desired results. We should ensure that we expedite the process to include the settlement of women and youth.

Let us refer back to the background of agriculture in the South African context. Agriculture has been designed to benefit a small group of white conservatives. It ensured perpetual enslavement of poor African peasants through meagre wages and unfavourable working conditions. Yes, we agree to the gradual eradication of this legacy, but the patience of the African peasants on the platteland of our country is gradually diminishing. In our provincial scenario, the budget that has been allocated to the department will not be able to change this setup as the largest share is directed towards addressing personnel matters, while the training of emerging farmers will receive less of the budget than anticipated.

I agree that the Government of the day did, indeed, succeed in effecting some changes to agricultural sector policies, but they have not brought about the desired changes in the agricultural sector. After five years commercial farming is still dominated by whites, while small agricultural farming is predominantly made up of African farmers who cannot access finance from the Land Bank and who are still refused membership of co- operatives which are dominated by white farmers. And, owing to budget cuts in our province, technical assistance to the emerging agricultural sector has been dealt a severe blow.

The Minister in her Budget Vote did concede to the fact that agriculture was designed on a racial basis and that we should assist in deracialising the sector. This can only be changed through policies that are very radical in nature and form. There are farmers in the Free State who have indeed brought about some changes to the lives of their workers by providing them with houses and sanitation, but this is still not enough. Serious efforts have been made by the Department of Agriculture in the Free State to facilitate the establishment of agrivillages, and this is seen as the only way to curb the level of evictions in our province.

This will also help to curb migration from farms to so-called townships where the levels of crime are very high and where the levels of those lacking housing are very high.

The process of land restitution is very slow. Where it is applicable in our province, mainly in Bloemfontein and Odendaalsrus, it has created a lot of problems, such as overcrowding, and has not provided any solution to land problems.

In the province the land restitution programme of the Department of Land Affairs is very independent, but as a province we would like to see more synergy and improvement in relationships.

Globalisation and mechanisation are areas that need to be looked into seriously. Owing to a fear of the Extension of Security of Tenure Act, most white farmers have resorted to mechanisation as an alternative to supplementing their workforce.

In regard to globalisation, South Africa, as an exporting country, has to comply with importing conditions of other countries which are at times not favourable to our situation.

In April 1999 the department came out with what was called a ``setup scheme’’, and this programme was intended to create a framework in terms of which emerging farmers would be able to borrow money from financial institutions. However, the money that this scheme provided was not enough to address problems in the emerging agricultural sector.

The main objective of the land redistribution programme was to provide the poor with land for residential and agricultural purposes. The beneficiaries included the poor, land tenants, farmworkers, women and emerging farmers, but the programme did not meet the desired objectives.

As previous speakers have mentioned, we are still today, as the Free State, faced with the serious problem of evictions. Recently our province embarked on a programme to establish the conditions of farmworkers. It was noted that the most common problem in our province was the unlawful evictions in which farmers were able to evict farmworkers without authorised eviction orders from the courts.

In conclusion, the Government must take reasonable legislative and other measures within its available resources to create an enabling climate which would ensure access to land on an equitable basis. [Applause.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr M L Mushwana): Order! I now call upon the hon the Deputy Minister for Agriculture and Land Affairs to address the House. He will probably tell us how to take light to the Kalahari. [Laughter.]

The DEPUTY MINISTER FOR AGRICULTURE AND LAND AFFAIRS: Chairperson, I doubt that I can really take light there. I want to link up with the excellent problem-based speech Mr Nketu has made and with what the hon the Minister said towards the end of her speech on agriculture, and that is the need to continually reflect on, prioritise and co-ordinate the budgets and activities of the national department, the provincial departments and parastatals.

I believe that is really at the heart of the problem which we must address in the NCOP, that is, the extreme pressure at the moment on agriculture budgets in this country as a whole, especially in the provinces. We are aware of the problem. It is a very complex situation, because this extreme pressure on agriculture budgets, especially in the provinces, flows from the macroeconomic demands which are being made on the Government at the moment. Let me give hon members two examples.

Just recently the MEC for agriculture in the Eastern Cape sent me a copy of an agricultural development Act which the Eastern Cape government has passed. The people from the Eastern Cape will most probably be aware of that Act. That is exactly the type of thing we want provinces to do, because that is the type of agricultural development which should take place at provincial level. But what is the problem? We have a beautiful, well-thought-through Act in the province, but we do not have the money to fund that Act. What must we do? We have other problems as well. We have problems in respect of veterinary services, which is a Schedule 5 function, that is, an exclusive function of provinces, with the exception of the regulation of the function. That Schedule of the Constitution was written by the likes of the Willie Hofmeyrs, the Bulelani Ngcukas and the Dirk du Toits of this world. At that stage, when they wrote it, they did not know a thing about agriculture. Now we discover the problems one encounters with this Schedule, because animal diseases do not occur in one province only. Diseases do not know provincial borders. Also when dealing with international trade and animal and plant diseases, one discovers that diseases do not know borders of countries. Therefore, this is a matter which is not restricted to a province as such.

What happens is that when money is scarce, when there is not enough money to go around, this type of pressure starts building up. Experience internationally shows that the only solution is to step up the level of intergovernmental interaction the moment there is this type of pressure on a budget. The fact of the matter is that a province cannot undertake large, ambitious agricultural schemes at a time when there is macroeconomic pressure, because then macroeconomic management takes precedence for the country’s growth as a whole.

One then sits with the problem of the harmonisation of social conflicts, about which we have heard a lot in this Chamber today. These problems one could have solved if one had a lot of money. But perhaps it is a good thing that we do not have that type of money and that we have to look for real solutions. It is actually a pity that the MEC for agriculture in the Western Cape had to leave. I presume he left for Zimbabwe to have negotiations with the Zimbabwean agriculture Minister, and we therefore do not mind recusing him.

The provincial MECs have to deal with big problems, and a lot of those are structural in nature. As I have said, the nature of animal and plant diseases and the nature of South Africa’s international obligations are such that there can be no doubt that things such as veterinary services are matters of national interest. We cannot simply say that it is the problem of the provinces that by August of this year veterinarians do not have petrol to put in their bakkies to go out into the country to look after the animals, because there is no money left. That concerns the national level as well. The only way in which we can start addressing this problem is if we work together very closely, far more closely than we are doing today. I think that should be a concern of this honourable Council.

In other words, the main constraint for agriculture in this country, from a public finance point of view, is the way in which agricultural funds are being allocated in the provinces for the different services that have to be delivered. As one would say in Afrikaans: ``Landbou suig aan die agterspeen.’’ In other words, agriculture gets too little in comparison to the other major services which have to be rendered by the provinces.

Any agricultural strategy that we develop in this country has to work in this context. It will stand or fall by the answers we find to these budgetary constraints. I was wondering whether we are doing the right thing by depending on the equitable share of provinces to deliver agricultural services in the provinces. Will that suffice? When one thinks about the problems of maintaining veterinary services in the provinces, should one then not rather start thinking - I am asking this as a point of debate - about making use of conditional grants? Then we would know that this money would go towards agriculture or veterinary services or towards extension services that one wants to do, or towards a soil resource conservation programme. Then we would know that this money would go to the province for that, and the province knows best how to go and spend that money, because it is near to the problems.

In other words, should we not rather work in terms of section 214(1)(c) of the Constitution in the sense that we work according to these programmes and that we negotiate, on a co-operative basis, what type of programmes we are going to implement and thus channel the money in that way? In other words, I am asking whether it has not become necessary for us to use another mechanism for farming services in the provinces, such as extension or veterinary services, namely through constitutional allocations or conditional grants.

The point is that both national and provincial governments are in this boat together. We cannot escape it. Our objective should be to maximise the scope that we have for economic growth and for minimising inefficiencies. We can only do that if we maximise the capacities that we do have and make full use of them. One of the ways in which to maximise capacities is to ensure that they do not stand idle. It does not make economic sense if a provincial capacity stands idle, because then one is wasting money. The money could be used to activate a service, otherwise one should get rid of a service that one cannot fund in any way whatsoever.

One does not maximise capacities if we do not get the provinces to do what they should do. They must be able to do that. In other words, what I am saying is that there are two basic requirements if we want to get a comprehensive agricultural strategy going, as the hon the Minister has explained.

Firstly, there should be development of capacity within each provincial government in terms of educated staff, using and controlling financial resources correctly and, applying technological facilities in order to address agricultural development and maintenance effectively in a system of intergovernmental interaction. We will be coming with that Bill to hon members first. That is the type of system or structure that we envisage, which will be done, for example, in the Meat Safety Bill. We hope to get hon members’ agreement on it. That is the type of intergovernmental system that we will try to develop here.

Secondly, we can only be saved in agricultural government by effective intergovernmental co-operation and co-ordination. This may happen through statutory provisions, indeed, but it must also happen - and that is the most important part - through practice and convention. To reach our goals of effective co-operation, the first requirement is the establishment of a political culture of co-operation, mutual respect and trust. Those words stand in the Constitution, but those words do not mean a thing if they merely stand in a law or constitution. They must be effectuated by individuals working in this sphere, specifically the agricultural sphere.

That is our challenge. This political culture of co-operation is far more important than legal structures, procedures and technicalities provided for by laws. To develop a sense of trust requires a sense of tolerance from the side of the provinces towards national Government and from the side of national Government towards provinces. If one does not create this trust, it will lead to distrust. It will engender pressures for legislative detail that then again become straitjackets of inflexibility.

I believe that in the field of veterinary services, for example, and the field of extension services, we are heading for doom if we do not work in this co-operative way. I think we are not doing too badly at the moment. We have elements of assistance that co-ordinate, for example, veterinary activities.

What needs to happen - that is the place where it should happen first, apart from at the level of leadership provided by hon members and politicians - is that intergovernmental co-operation - this is the most important thing I want to say to the House - must expand into bureaucratic bargaining processes and systems because there the co-operation happens with low visibility. As the House knows, politicians always want high visibility, and then a lot of things are messed up in all the big shows that are created. If the intergovernmental relations are really happening at the level of our officials and if they are interacting without bargaining, then we begin to expect results. That is being done at the moment.

I also went overseas as the hon MEC for the Western Cape did. My Minister allowed and instructed me to do so! [Laughter.] I just take orders, as hon members can see! I went overseas to look into the issue of BSE, which stands bovine spongiform encephalopathy. It is a disease that affects the brain and nervous system of cows.

I want hon members to know that, in South Africa, we cannot handle a crisis like that. We just do not have the capacity. If we experience a crisis of that nature, it would be too big for us to handle. If we were to have an outbreak of BSE in South Africa, we would simply lose our red meat producing capacity in this country. This is big stuff.

What we must do is prevent it. We must see to it that our systems are in order, that our services are running, because if they go wrong, they go wrong in a big way. Then one has to destroy a lot of cattle. We have to be quite wary about this. We do have elements of a system to co-ordinate veterinary affairs, in spite of what is written in the Constitution. We have to do that. It does exist on the basis of mutual trust.

We must develop business plans together in the agricultural sector. It is difficult to execute, because one always needs the capacitation for intergovernmental relations. We need experts to help with intergovernmental relations of that kind, and really do it well.

The best would probably be to implement the suggestion that we organise ourselves around sectors in agriculture. In other words, if we, for example, have to co-ordinate some veterinary services, then we would do it around the red meat industry or the industry around pigs, we would do it around poultry, we would do it around the small stock industry in those sectors, and try and co-ordinate our actions.

What must be done? I believe that, for agriculture we must develop intergovernmental relations of a special kind. Agriculture is special. [Time expired.] [Applause.]

Dr E A CONROY: Mr Chairperson, hon Minister, hon Deputy Minister and colleagues, man and beast need three basic elements to survive. The first two are - if not indiscriminately wasted and polluted - provided free and in abundance by the good Creator, namely air in the form of oxygen and water in the form of oxygen and hydrogen. The third man has to toil for, namely the food that the earth will produce with the sweat of his brow.

Mother Earth is the source of life, and for those who are prepared to till it, he who is prepared to sow will be allowed to reap. The people who work the land, be it in the form of sowing and reaping or the rearing of cattle, commonly known as farmers, are the providers of food.

The world economy, with its ever-growing population, is totally dependent on farming, which is the primary source of raw materials for the production of basic and sophisticated foodstuffs for humans and feedstuffs for animals, for the production of textiles from cotton and wool and for the production of plant oils and rubber.

As a matter of fact, the world would come to a standstill were it not for the farmers, big and small, or commercial farmers on the one extreme and subsistence farmers on the other. A country with a vision for the future will therefore cherish its farmers and farming communities by providing well for them in the resources that it makes available in its budget, in the realisation that one can only reap that which one has sown.

Daarom steun die Nuwe NP die begroting wat deur die agb Minister voorgelê is.

Een van die Departement van Landbou se gestelde beleidsdoelwitte is ‘n doeltreffende en internasionaal mededingende landbousektor wat die opkoms van ‘n swart landbousektor onderskraag. Anders gestel: bo en behalwe eie binnelandse voedselbehoeftes wat bevredig moet word, moet die landbousektor ook produkte van ‘n hoë en aanvaarbare gehalte produseer wat met die wêreld se beste op die internasionale mark kan meeding om sodoende belangrike valuta vir die land te verdien en te help om Suid-Afrika se betalingsbalans op ‘n gesonde voet te hou. Kennis en ondervinding wat in die proses van groeiende doeltreffendheid en verbeterde mededingendheid opgebou en op internasionale vlak uitgeruil word, word met vrug in die opkomende swart landbousektor teruggeploeg.

Dit is om hierdie rede dat ek graag twee punte van bekommernis wil uitlig: eerstens, dat die begrotingstoewysing aan die Landbounavorsingsraad moontlik nie voldoende is nie. Sonder voldoende en doeltreffende landbounavorsing sal ons letterlik agteruit boer en nie internasionaal kan meeding nie. Dit sal ‘n jammerlike dag wees as Suid-Afrika, wat as een van die voorste lande op landbounavorsingsgebied beskou word en sy kennis oor die jare ook aan die res van Afrika oorgedra het, nou weens onvoldoende fondse die agterste gestoeltes moet begin inneem of om die woorde van die Adjunkminister te gebruik, begin ``om aan die agterspeen te suig.’’ Om die vrugte van ‘n versiende beleid in die toekoms te pluk, moet die brood nou reeds in die vorm van ‘n verhoogde navorsingsbegroting op die waters gewerp word.

Tweedens is dit vreemd dat die departement nie met meer, sê maar entoesiasme, om dit sagkens te stel, sy produsente se belange by die Raad op Tariewe en Handel verdedig wanneer dit by die bepaling van invoerregte op produkte van landboukundige oorsprong kom nie.

Na verneem word, moet onder andere die suiwelbedryf en die produsente van plantaardige olies met een hand agter die rug vasgemaak teen die ingevoerde produkte baklei om te oorleef omdat die buitelandse produk weens landbousubsidies in verskeie vorme die speelveld totaal ongelyk maak en toegelaat word om teen onrealistiese lae tariewe die land te oorspoel.

Daar word erkenning gegee aan die beginsel dat voedsel op die mees ekonomiese manier aan die bevolking voorsien moet word en dat, indien die ingevoerde produk in daardie behoefte kan voorsien, daar daarvan gebruik gemaak moet word. So ‘n situasie sal gewoonlik as ‘n kopersmark bestempel word. Indien dit die rede vir lae invoertariewe is, sal ‘n vroegtydige waarskuwing teen so ‘n kortsigtige beleid nie onvanpas wees nie, naamlik dat, indien die plaaslike produsente vernietig word omdat hulle nie langer met die goedkoop gesubsidieerde ingevoerde produk kan meeding nie, die mark vir die besondere produk as gevolg van die beginsel van vraag en aanbod in ‘n verkopersmark omskep sal word, en die prys van die oorwegend beskikbare, en in sommige gevalle die enigste beskikbare, ingevoerde produk uit die aard van die saak sal styg.

‘n Mens besef egter dat invoertariewe die gevolg van internasionale ooreenkomste en onderhandelings is, maar jy wonder soms of dit werklik vir Suid-Afrika nodig is om, soos dit voorkom, altyd op die voorpunt by die nakoming van sulke ooreenkomste te wees. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)

[The New NP therefore supports the budget as submitted by the hon the Minister.

One of the Department of Agriculture’s stated policy objectives is an efficient and internationally competitive agricultural sector which supports the emergence of a black agricultural sector. Differently stated: above and beyond own domestic food needs which have to be met, the agricultural sector must also produce products of a high and acceptable quality which can compete with the world’s best on the international market and in this way earn valuable currency for the country and assist in keeping South Africa’s balance of payments on a sound footing. Knowledge and experience which is accumulated in the process of increasing efficiency and improving competitiveness and which is exchanged at an international level is ploughed back into the emerging black agricultural sector fruitfully.

It is for this reason that I want to highlight two points of concern: firstly, that the budgetary allocation to the Agricultural Research Council may be insufficient. Without adequate and efficient agricultural research we will literally farm at a loss and not be able to compete internationally. It will be a sorry day if South Africa, which is considered one of the foremost countries with regard to agricultural research and has over the years also conveyed its expertise to the rest of Africa, now as a result of insufficient funding has to begin occupying the back benches or, to use the words of the Deputy Minister, begin ``om aan die agterspeen te suig’’ [to draw the short end of the stick.] To reap the fruits of a far-sighted policy in future, the bread must now already be cast upon the waters in the form of an increased research budget.

Secondly, it is strange that the department does not defend its producers’ interests with more, let us say enthusiasm, to put it mildly, with the Board on Tariffs and Trade when it comes to the determination of import rights on products of agricultural origin.

As it is understood, the dairy industry and the producers of vegetable oils have to battle with one hand tied behind their backs against the imported products in order to survive because the foreign products make the playing field totally uneven as a result of agricultural subsidies in various forms, and are allowed to flood the country at unrealistically low tariffs.

Recognition is given to the principle that food should be provided to the population in the most economical manner possible and that, if the imported product can meet that need it should be utilised. Such a situation would usually be labelled a buyer’s market. If this is the reason for low import tariffs, an early warning against such a short-sighted policy would not be inappropriate, namely that, if the local producers are destroyed because they can no longer compete with the cheap subsidised imported product, the market for the product in question will be transformed into a seller’s market as a result of the principle of supply and demand, and the price of the predominantly available, and in some cases the only available, imported product will naturally rise.

However, one realises that import tariffs are the result of international agreements and negotiations, but one sometimes wonders if it is really necessary for South Africa, as it would seem, always to be at the forefront of adherence to such agreements.] Land Affairs is the other leg of the Minister’s portfolio. The basic reasons for the existence of Land Affairs are the redistribution of land, restitution, land tenure reform, state land management, etc.

In a policy statement of the Minister during February of this year, it was mentioned that the South African state is the major landowner in the country. Although this is a generally known fact, it was interesting to learn that the state owns approximately 32 million hectares, or approximately 25% of the total land surface. This total figure comprises land which is privately owned by the state, state-owned land which is leased mainly to white commercial farmers and companies and state-owned land which is settled or occupied by tribal groupings and communities.

Although the Government does not, according to the Minister’s policy statement, have a coherent policy on state land disposal, it is admitted that the department is not favourably disposed towards the illegal occupation of unutilised land, and that it has not favourably responded to requests and demands by tribes and communities that state land, which has been occupied by them, be transferred to them as tribes and communities. I agree with the Minister that the people who should benefit from an organised and well-managed system of land distribution, and especially disposal of underutilised or unutilised state land, are the people who, through previous disadvantage suffered both socially and economically. The disposal of state land should be the key to the improvement of their quality of life. The New NP would therefore urge the Minister to do everything in her power to finalise the policy formulation in this regard and to speed up a well-organised and strategically managed system of sustainable land redistribution.

From the already mentioned figures it would appear that sufficient state- owned land is still available for this purpose. It is the more affordable option for making land available for redistribution. The buzz word should, however, be ``sustainability’’.

In conclusion, I will briefly refer to restitution, which causes a great deal of uncertainty and concern to claimants and those landownersÿ.ÿ.ÿ. [Time expired.] [Applause.]

Mrs R A NDZANGA: Chairperson, hon Minister and fellow comrades, it is a pity that Mr Van Rensburg has just left. I was going to remind him that, 15 years ago, his party, as the apartheid government, went to my place in Mogopa, bulldozed the churches, bulldozed the people’s houses, bulldozed the schools and took away the land of the people at the point of a gun. Today he has the audacity to come and tell us what to do for Zimbabwe. [Interjections.] He was there.

The contribution of agriculture to the national economy is said to be around 6%. However, according to international research the contribution by agriculture could increase substantially if a sustainable small-scale emerging farming community is developed. Since small-scale farmers are an important component of our constituency and constitute a viable instrument for growth in the agricultural sector, in this debate I will raise serious concerns for their promotion and development.

In the previous financial year, R20 million was made available for production loans to previously disadvantaged farmers. How much is currently awarded for this farming sector? Could we have a breakdown according to provinces? Previously about R150 million was made available for emerging farmers by the financial intermediaries. These financial intermediaries administered production loans to beginners and small farmers at an interest rate of 14%. The national Department of Agriculture covered the operational costs, transaction costs and the provisioning fees. Since the repo rate has declined, what is the current rate of interest on loans awarded to small farmers? The loans to small farmers are granted in terms of the Agricultural Credit Act of 1996. Currently what kind of assistance is available to the small emerging farmers?

Production loans for emerging and small food producers have been separated from grants for project assistance. Grants for this special project have been paid into the National Revenue Account. In the past a preliminary maximum amount of R6 million per province was allocated for these projects. What is the current situation with regard to these special grants for the emerging farmers? Do we have the allocation as per province? More importantly, what kind of financial relief was awarded to the emerging and small farmers adversely affected by the recent floods?

The purchasing of land by emerging farmers is most troublesome under certain conditions. The Agricultural Credit Board finances the purchasing of the land. The purchasing of the land is absolutely central to the establishment of this subsector. The reason for the inability to provide loans is, among others, the inadequate capital of applicants and the high market value of agricultural land. The beginner and small farmer find it difficult to bridge the gap between market value and the loan value that the credit board is willing to grant. The present measure of the credit board is therefore not enough to address the problem effectively.

Extensive research has shown that if the state wants to settle farmers in this manner and solve the problem, the Government’s total involvement in the purchasing of land for beginner and small farmers must be reviewed. The question is: What measures are being taken by the Department of Agriculture to address this difficult experience by the small farmers?

The trends towards a more liberated economy and greater exposure to market forces in the rest of the world may limit the Government’s ability and potential to intervene in the marketing of agricultural products. What steps or measures have been taken to ensure that the output of the emerging farming communities receives an adequate share of the export market in spite of the global trend? Moreover, what share of the small farmer output is exported to the Southern Africa Development Community and the European Community? [Applause.]

Mr R M NYAKANE: Chairperson, Minister, Deputy Minister, I have just learned recently from the Minister that there are 3 000 claims that have been settled up to now, apparently, out of 11 000 which we discovered in the records of the land claims commissioner last year. I am referring to the Northern Province and Mpumalanga. I wish to commend the department for this improvement, because we were labouring under the impression that only four applications had been settled.

I would like also to share my sentiments on this issue of the ill-treatment of farmworkers that have been staying on the farms for quite a long time. In the Northern Province we have observed a situation in the area called Messina, and the farming community is called Maswiriboerdery. There it was a funny situation because about 200 farm residents were ill-treated and threatened with eviction. But, at the end of the day, it appeared that the magistrate and the prosecutors sort of aligned themselves with the intention to evict these people completely. This aroused very great suspicion, because, really, the magistrate and prosecutors are public functionaries who, we believe, are also law enforcers. We noted that with dismay.

In November 1999 I happened to be in the team of those who went out to observe land claims restitution and the progress taking place. I must inform this House that the response we got from the people we met there was not quite pleasing. They seemed to be very despondent and complained that the process was taking too long. I think it would be fair for us, especially for me, to report to this House that the people who have lodged claims with the department are quite unhappy. The Minister should please take note of that.

Another observation I have made concerns the issue of willing seller and willing buyer. The process has good intentions especially because it assures a bottom-up approach to land redistribution. We realised that emerging farmers were being exploited, because most of the farmers who sold their farms to emerging farmers charged exorbitant prices. The poor emerging farmers, who have never been in the field of farming, are easily exploited. Usually the Land Bank assists emerging farmers. But, as we know, the Land Bank’s main intention or incentive is to maximise its profit.

We are calling upon the department to intervene and look into the possibility of assisting emerging farmers who intend to buy farms from white people.

Members should note that there is an omission in the sense that a feasibility study of such farms has never been undertaken to find out if emerging farmers are able to produce enough products and are able to market them and run their farms as businesses and maintain them. [Time expired.]

Chief M L MOKOENA: Chairperson, I have been formally mandated by my beautiful and evergreen Northern Province to participate in this debate. [Laughter.]

This debate takes place against the background of the fiasco that is happening over land in one of our neighbouring countries. I would like to thank our Government for addressing the question of land systematically so that, unlike what is happening in that country, we do not have the same problem.

I would like, again, to thank the Minister and her department for doing everything in their power to implement this Government’s land reform programme. This is evident from the number of positive pieces of legislation passed by this Government.

Having said that, however, the Government now needs backup machinery to implement this programme. We need loyal, committed, dedicated, thinking and unselfish people to implement the Government’s policies.

On 30 October 1999, a delegation of the Select Committee on Agriculture and Land Affairs visited Mpumalanga to find out if, and how, the land reform programme was being implemented. The committee also visited the Northern Province on 12 November of the same year. We met Government officials, traditional leaders, business communities, community leaders and NGOs, and MECs from both provinces were in attendance.

During these visits, the committee discovered that many people had lodged claims for their land. They submitted all relevant documents to the regional Land Claims Commission, they undertook follow-ups with the said office and asked for meetings with the land claims commissioner, but all in vain. Aspirant or earmarked beneficiaries are not informed of the latest developments. There is no regular communication between claimants and the regional office of the Land Claims Commission. Claimants in both provinces categorically state that they have completely lost confidence in the regional land claims commissioner.

The Northern Province Portfolio Committee on Agriculture, Environment and Land Affairs met on 6 March this year to look into the question of land redistribution and restoration. It was discovered that, for the past five years, out of 5 000 claims lodged only three had been successful. The pace is very slow. Only 0.004% of land claims had been successfully handled. What a shame! The attitude of some of these officials who are responsible for implementing these policies is questionable. It is now clear that one commissioner cannot afford to serve these two provinces. It was again questioned why the Northern Province and Mpumalanga are served from Gauteng province. I say to the hon the Minister: Enough is enough, and it cannot be more than enough!

This brings me to the following questions. What is to be done if officials in a particular section in the Minister’s department are not committed to their task? What if an official has a negative attitude towards the Government’s land policies? Some of these officials are operating from their offices which are more than 400 kilometres away from the people they purport to serve. I ask the Minister: Are we going to keep them even if they are failing the Minister? Are we, with our caps in our hands, going to beg them to change their attitudes? As regards those who are contracted to the Minister’s department: Are we going to wait until their contracts expire? The relevant person to deal decisively with these questions is my loyal and reliable Minister.

The Northern Province had no room for someone who had run out of ideas. [Laughter.] As the Northern Province, we are saying that the time for communities to get their land back is now. This can be done without causing any row. We cannot tolerate that there are unmilked holy cows. The question to be answered by all of us is how we should deal with the matter. Some of the officials’ actions are questionable, and their attitude towards our people is deplorable. Their behaviour when dealing with our people is unacceptable. This Government’s commitment to land reform and their attitudes are irreconcilable.

My province wants to bring to the attention of the Minister the strained relationship between the provincial department of land affairs and officials attached to the national department. There is a ``we-and-them’’ attitude between them. My Minister is urged to iron out this problem before it escalates. Again, there is no proper co-ordination between the provincial department of land affairs and the office of the regional land claims commissioner. The sooner this bickering is stopped the better, because while it is continuing, claimants are the ones who are bearing the brunt.

It is shocking and sad to know that there are still some farmers who refuse their farmworkers the right to bury their dead on their farms, even though they have worked on those farms for more than 25 years. Some were born on those farms. One family had to travel more than 70 km to bury their dead; another had to bury theirs at the roadside. What a pity, what a shame.

Are we going to allow our people to be exploited in this way? The answer is no. It is shocking to notice that these people are only interested in our labour. Their barbaric action is abhorrent and cannot be tolerated. In Northern Sotho we have a saying:

Mošutelelwa ga a nabe. [Beggars cannot be choosers.]

My province will support the hon the Minister in her endeavours to better the lives of our people.

Montshepetša bošego ke mo leboga bo sele. [Legofsi.] [The one who brought me up while I was young will be thanked when I am a grown-up. [Applause.]]

Mrs J N VILAKAZI: Chairperson, hon Minister for Agriculture and Land Affairs, hon members, people must know that land and agriculture are very important for our lives and are inseparable.

The Budget Vote of the Department of Agriculture and Land Affairs is geared to improving the living standards of individuals through the support it proposes to give for instance, the amendment of section 10 of the Deeds Registries Act of 1937 will empower the board to make regulations which, when implemented, will lead to the recovery of arrears owed by people.

It is also geared towards safeguarding, empowering and protecting community members at all levels and to ensuring that they are treated with fairness and justice. Some people were hard hit by their forced removal from their areas of residence, but the Ministry for Agriculture and Land Affairs is in the process of correcting these errors of the past by giving land back to the people who were dispossessed. However, people should know that all services catering for their needs in the community have to be sustained, maintained and supported by all consumers concerned.

A number of sections of the Land Affairs General Amendment Act are aimed at achieving fairness and justice for all.

Sihlalo ohloniphekileyo nomKhandlu wonke, siyethemba ukuthi umbhidlango neqhaza elibanjwa nguNgqongqoshe wezemiHlaba nezoLimo ekubhekeleni inhlalakahle kubo bonke abantu abakhele leli zwe, uzosiza kakhulu. Siyazi sonke ukuthi umhlaba, noma ngabe owokwakha noma owokulima, ubaluleke kakhulu ezimpilweni zethu. Abantu bazoluthokozela kakhulu uhlelo lokubasiza babuyele ezindaweni zabo. Labo abaziphilisa ngokulima, uHulumeni kudingeka abaxhase ngezidingo zokusebenza.

Siyazi ukuthi abantu abaningi baswele imisebenzi. Abaningi baphila ngenhlabathi, ikakhulu emakhaya. UmNyango wezoLimo nezemiHlaba usinika ithemba uma uthi uzobhekela futhi ubambisane nezinhlangano zabalimi noma ngabe bakuliphi izinga.

Esifundeni engiphuma kuso, KwaZulu-Natali, abantu bakhona ikakhulukazi abasemakhaya. Bawukhonzile umhlabathi. Indawo yakhona yinhle. Ikhipha lokho okutshalile, ngaphandle uma kube neshwa likazamcolo nokunye okwenzekayo ukukhinyabeza izitshalo noma isivuno.

Siyacela impela kumhlonishwa wezoLimo ukuba alekelele ngokuthuthukisa bonke laba abadinga usizo. Siyacela futhi emNyangweni wezoLimo ukuba abeluleki kwezolimo babhidlange bafundise abantu ukudweba imithethosisekelo yezinhlangano zabo nendlela abazoqhuba ngayo izinhlangano zabo, phecelezi, ibusiness plans.

Kusuka kube kubi kakhulu emphakathini ukuzwa ukuthi kanti naleyo mali esuke ikhishelwe ukubasiza ibuyela emuva ingasize muntu. Ngithi kumhlonishwa oyiPhini likaNgqongoshe walo mnyango nakuNgqongqoshe womnyango mabaphuthume ngoba kubi lapha phandle. Ikati lilele eziko. (Translation of Zulu paragraphs follows.)

[Chairperson and honourable House, we hope that the campaign and the role played by the hon the Minister for Agriculture and of Land Affairs in ensuring the well-being of all citizens of this country, is important. We all know that land, whether it is for cultivating or building purposes, is very important in our lives. People will be pleased with land redistribution. The Government should ensure that those who are engaged in subsistence farming are assisted with tools.

We know that many people are unemployed, which means that most of our people, especially the rural people, are depending on subsistence farming. Words of hope have been given to us by the Department of Agriculture and Land Affairs which has promised to provide and work co-operatively with all kinds of farmers, irrespective of their status.

In the province of KwaZulu-Natal, where I come from, many people are living in the rural areas. They are people of the soil. Their land is fertile. It produces what one has sown, except if there was heavy rain or anything that could affect the harvest.

We appeal to the hon the Minister for Agriculture and Land Affairs to assist those who are in dire need. We also appeal to the Department of Agriculture and Land Affairs to encourage agricultural advisers to teach people how to draw up constitutions of their organisations as well as their business plans.

It is bad, especially for our communities, to learn that the money that was allocated for their needs has not been used. I appeal to the hon the Minister and her Deputy to speed up the process. Things are getting worse. People are living in abject poverty.] The department and committees serving in this portfolio expressed their concern about the recent floods by visiting the disaster areas. Flood victims received assistance from the department and other donors around the country, which made a tremendous contribution to their plight. The IFP views this aid as promoting the fight against poverty. [Applause.]

Ms B N DLULANE: Mr Chairperson, hon Minister, hon Deputy Minister, hon members, in response to the concern raised by Mr Van Rensburg with regard to the Zimbabwean land issue, I would like to remind him of a phrase in our Constitution. I quote:

We, the people of South Africa, Recognise the injustices of our past …

While we are concerned about what is happening elsewhere, we should also ask ourselves what we should do to give real meaning to the phrase I quoted.

Agriculture in the Eastern Cape is characterised by the dominance of two systems, that is, the commercial land and developing sectors. The use of a geographic information system together with zoning have made it possible to identify the agricultural and farming potential across the province. Amongst other things, the data generated from this is specific, and in response to the particular environment, the following programmes have been made possible as a result of this system.

Firstly, we have the integrated livestock and crop development programme. This is a community development programme that promotes land care through natural resource conservation and the improvement of rural livelihoods. The strategy towards the survival and success of this programme focuses on co- operative work among farmers through their commodity groups, the provincial and national departments of agriculture, the private sector and research institutions.

Secondly, we have the Eastern Cape meat production and marketing strategy. This programme has been put in place solely for the purpose of addressing the problems faced by meat producers in the province. This programme is aimed at creating an environment where farmers have a reliable market with competitive prices, while at the same time providing a continuous supply to both local and international meat markets, thereby uplifting developing farmers in the process. The key to this programme is the provision of a marketing strategy that will benefit the producer and consumer simultaneously.

Thirdly, there is a co-operative movement in the province. A strong farmer organisation is the key to successful farming among developing farmers of the province. Development through agriculture is impossible if farmers are not organised. A small farmer registration unit was established in 1998 to organise the farmers into legal entities which include co-operatives and trusts.

The following indicates the number of co-operative movements that have been formed and registered so far in the different regions. In the central region, we have seven, in the eastern region of the Eastern Cape, there are six, in the East Griqualand region, there are two, and in the northern region, there are four.

Fourthly, there is a rapid impact programme. The status of this programme is geared towards infrastructure provision, poverty alleviation and job creation and production efficiency amongst the developing farmers. The following statistics are applicable across the province, as follows: poultry, 253 projects; communal gardens, 140; irrigation projects, 21; mixed projects, 3; piggeries, 83; and fencing, 11. This totals up to 521 projects. The strategy towards survival and the success of this programme lies in the co-operative work between farmers through their commodity groups, the provincial and national Departments of Agriculture, the private sector and research institutions.

The fifth programme is the Döhne Agriculture Development Institute. Its main function is to provide appropriate technology to the farming communities in the province through a back-up system to the extension officers. The institute is supposed to address practical problems facing both the developing and commercial farmers in this province through research works. It could be achieved through the use of farm demonstrations that respond to the community needs and problems. This programme serves as a technical resource centre for agriculture information.

The last programme, but not least, is the integration of extension and research. This extension service is the delivery wing of the department, because the successes and failure of the department are measured there. On its own, the directorate is toothless, as it strongly depends on the researched work. Its main function is to translate researched work into a form usable to farmers.

Malunga nekamva lamafama asakhasayo, iMpuma Koloni ibe nethamsanqa lokuthi iphumelele kukhuphiswano lwenkqubela-phambili yamafama asezilalini. Iphumelele phambili kubathabathi-nxaxheba abebengamakhulu amathathu. Loo mpumelelo yenze ukuba sinikwe izigidi ezingamakhulu amane, anamawaka amathathu, eerandi nguzwelonke ukuze kuncediswe ngayo kwinkqubela yamafama. Yonke loo nto iza kwenziwa ngomhla we-18 kuCanzibe eNgqushwa. Ndiqinisekile ukuba uMphathiswa uya kuba yinxalenye yaloonto. (Translation of Xhosa paragraph follows.)

[Concerning the future of emerging farmers, the Eastern Cape was fortunate to receive an award for the most improved village farmers. It came first out of 300 competitors. The award brought with it R400 003 000 from national Government to aid farming programmes. All that will happen on 18 May in Peddie. I am sure the Minister will be there.]

In conclusion, I would like to deal with the interesting question of the restitution programme. The following data has been provided by the Department of Land Affairs: We settled eight of the land claims we received in 1999. The land claims which are pending for 1999-2000 are 847. The land claims targeted for the year 2000 involve 25 different communities. The programme of land redistribution has been put on hold since the appointment of the new Minister, due to a policy shift in this programme.

As a result, a moratorium was in place, and is likely to be lifted towards the end of April, when the new policy will be in place. We are commending the new commissioner in the Eastern Cape, Mr Gwanya. In a short space of time he has taken some huge strides, hoping for the best.

We are also happy that the West Bank communities are starting to enjoy the fruits borne by the freedom achieved through their struggle to regain the land which was taken from them through the barrel of a gun, or through the Forced Removal Act of 1913. [Applause.]

Mr J O TLHAGALE: Chairperson, hon Minister, Deputy Minister and the hon House, thank you very much for this opportunity to participate in these debates. According to the land restitution process, persons and communities who had been dispossessed of their land after 19 June 1913, as a result of discriminatory laws and practices, are being given back that land.

Out of a total of 600 claims that were resolved a year ago, 380 were in favour of their claimants. The amount of land transferred to the claimants was approximately 264 000 ha at the cost of R53 million.

In my candid opinion this process of land restitution would save this country from falling into the same tragic situation into which our northern neighbours have fallen.

In the North West province research has shown that people were removed from land of high-potential soil and better rainfall to land of low-potential soil and less rainfall. This has resulted in those disadvantaged communities getting more disadvantaged through engaging in arable farming on land that was not suited for growing crops, but is being encroached upon by the Kgalagadi desert.

Our people are not only yearning for the restoration of their ancestral land, but are yearning to have land under their own title. The previously disadvantaged farmers are constantly being reminded that land for which they are yearning, would, if available, be sold at market-related prices. This is a matter of great concern for the emerging farmers. They contend that competing for land against their commercial colleagues in the open market would place them at a disadvantage and consequently the land would then continue to remain concentrated in the hands of their commercial colleagues.

The general trend of thought of the emerging crop farmers in the North West province is that all state land should be placed on sale to them, especially land that has been leased by black farmers for a number of years. The Government should then enable or empower them to purchase such land by means of an empowerment subsidy or some form of discount on the market-related price. This step would ensure an equal distribution of land to all the country’s citizens.

The return of land to its rightful owners and occupants is not without problems and hitches. Many families who had been forcefully removed had built houses and spent their lifelong savings in those areas. Now the long- expected time of return to their ancestral land has dawned, but they are hesitant and wonder how they will manage to rebuild those houses in the new land of their forefathers. [Time expired.] [Applause.]

Ms B THOMSON: Chairperson, hon Minister, Deputy Minister and hon members, the land reform programme is an enormous task for all of us. Land dispossession has been institutionalised over decades. Remedial measures have to be understood in the context of reconciliation, perseverance and understanding. I repeat that it is an enormous task for victims, perpetrators, support organisations, as well as Government as a facilitator.

In the process of land dispossession the beneficiaries unjustly enriched themselves substantially. Even up to this very day their generations live off the fruits of that unscrupulousness. It is said time and again by various stakeholders in KwaZulu-Natal that the land reform process, particularly restitution, has been a very slow process. However, one does understand that, if handled callously, restitution could cause serious tension. It should be understood clearly that this Government is committed to assisting in the redress of the imbalances of the past.

Those who planted the seeds of dispossession are also contributing to the slow pace by failing to negotiate reasonable prices for land. The Department of Land Affairs is faced with the problem of having to facilitate this lengthy process. People on the ground fail to understand the complexities of land reform.

For the purpose of my speech I will focus on the restitution claims on rural land as it affects the poorest of the poor, particularly women in Natal who have to work the land. We must admit that restitution has been a slow process. The Ministry has recognised this fact and appropriate mechanisms are being put in place. The process has been changed to follow the administrative route, rather than relying too much on the legal route.

We, as Government, appreciate the work of progressive nongovernmental organisations with the support of communities on the ground. At the same time, we must understand that the process cannot be expedited at the expense of the quality of the service, otherwise restitution will be seen as some sort of rural dumping without development opportunities. I know that understanding this is an emotive issue.

State services and infrastructure need to be put in place and the traditional leadership engaged. The return of the land to the people faces many challenges, namely land, new sustainable development, provision of basic services and community organisation. We need social harmony if restitution is to achieve its desired purpose. We cannot afford to have a situation in which there are oppressive social relations and an emerging class struggle. If restitution is handled carelessly, there is a likelihood of tension emerging.

Our Government is conscious of the fact that the views of the affected people are indispensable and acknowledges their suffering and pain. The national land committee task group has made a project proposal for the establishment of a body called the Community-Driven Restitution Initiative. It is aimed at informing claiming communities about the process that the Department of Land Affairs, and the commission on the restitution of land rights, has put in place in an attempt to speed up the process, to ensure that the claiming communities are centrally involved in the process and that they make informed decisions. This project will ensure closer working relations among the Department of Land Affairs and the national land committee, the commission on the restitution of land rights and restitution- claiming communities. The proposal, if accepted, will go a long way towards speeding up the process.

Having said that, it must be borne in mind that restitution does not come cheaply. It is an expensive process. It is estimated that for KwaZulu-Natal alone R37 million will be needed for the financial year 1999-2000 to settle only seven rural claims. This has serious implications for post-settlement support. I think that the current market value of land concept needs to be revisited. How on earth does one take so much money and compensate people for land that was unfairly acquired? One is leaving the recipient of the compensation in an even better financial position than before. The bulk of the money should rather be spent on improving the livelihood of the returning communities.

This brings us to the issue of emerging farmers. Land dominates the assets structure of the farm. Therefore if land is managed properly it should yield returns to infinity. That is precisely why post-settlement support in terms of provision of basic services, such as extensions, becomes important. In addition, subsistence farming is a business, therefore it is necessary to provide emerging farmers with skills that they need so that they can make informed decisions. These farmers need to prosper from the returns provided by agriculture. Extension workers need to provide effective agricultural facilitation and assistance to enable communities to realise a livelihood from agriculture.

The farming community needs to organise itself into local community structures. More often than not, the common problem faced by communities is that of poor leadership structures. There is often inefficiency within local community structures. Land is sometimes left uncropped and this leads to exploitation of natural resources, to environmental degradation and decreasing returns in agriculture.

In conclusion, we commend the Minister for Agriculture and Land Affairs for introducing the new grant aimed at redistributing at least 15% of agricultural land over a five-year period to emerging black farmers. We also commend her for her support for the rights of women with regard to land and her commitment to addressing tenure issues. This is, indeed, encouraging. [Applause.]

The MINISTER FOR AGRICULTURE AND LAND AFFAIRS: Mr Chairperson, hon members, I must say that the quality of the debate has been very interesting and encouraging. It shows that hon members have really been doing their constituency work and have brought up issues that come from constituencies. I think that would help us go a long way, as a department, in responding to the needs of the communities that we have to serve.

Maybe if one could comment briefly on the issues raised by hon members, I would like to say that some of them, indeed, were an affirmation of our stated policy. Some members came with views and proposals regarding what we can do to improve the work that we have to undertake, that of land redistribution and agricultural development. But others, I must say, were a bit disappointing.

I would like to respond to the points raised by the hon MEC Van Rensburg concerning the commitment that he said the Western Cape government has made towards improving the lot of emerging farmers in the Western Cape. I think one of the measures for me that would determine how far we have to go in the Western Cape is to what extent, in terms of our farmer settlement programme, we would be able to establish black wine producers, wine makers and exporters. I think that would be a challenge.

If one looks at the cost and at the potential that exists in the Western Cape in this industry, it, indeed, would have been a well-spent expense if we were able to introduce emerging farmers into this industry. I must say that our contribution to this will remain that of ensuring that we facilitate access to our markets, which is part of our responsibility as the national department, and that we work with provinces in order to support those who are entering this sphere.

In this instance I must say that I am pleased to announce that we are looking forward to signing a mutual agreement on the SPS measures during the impending visit by the Chinese President, which should go a long way towards facilitating access to the world’s sought-after market of China. For me, even if we could get access to just one market in one of the provinces of China for our products, we would have done very well indeed. [Interjections.]

I would also like to comment again on the issues raised by hon Versveld. Owing to insufficient time, I may have spoken very fast and there may have been confusion regarding the food security programme and other programmes that we are undertaking as a department. The issue might not have been made clear enough.

One of our commitments, also in terms of our policy, is to make sure that household and national food security remain our core objective as a department. However, in order for us to maximise our resources, we need to work together with the various line function departments which also have an interest in household food security. It is not that we are saying that issues of welfare do not concern us, but we are saying that welfare issues, nutrition issues which fall under health and the community gardens programme, which is encouraged by the community public works programme, contain elements which are very important for agriculture, when it comes to providing for household food security. For that reason, we as Government will remain committed to that programme. I must say that the issue raised by hon Taabe around the situation in which we find ourselves, particularly in areas of Mpumalanga, concerning labour tenants, points to the importance of dealing with the issue of land reform in South Africa. If I may remind hon members, the legislation on labour tenancy and the Extension of Security of Tenure Act seek to create certainty in terms of the security of tenure of people who have been working on farms for a long time, as well as those who, when those farms were bought by their owners, were found already living there and turned into labourers.

It is a sad situation, particularly in areas of the Free State, Mpumalanga, KwaZulu-Natal and the Northern Cape, to find that there is collusion between the security forces, the commandos and the justice system, and that these groups are not willing to ensure that they adhere to the legislation that these two Houses have passed. We continue to find that evictions occur. I must say that this is a cause for concern, because it continues to remind us of our land dispossession history, which we are seeking to change.

Apart from introducing legislation, the department has embarked on a programme to educate the current magistrates and judges, so that they may understand what they need to do when they adjudicate on matters of labour tenancy and extension of security of tenure. However, the long-term issue that we need to deal with is that of creating permanency on the security of tenure of farmworkers and farm dwellers.

I think we need to revisit the issue raised by Comrade Barbara Thomson, namely that of land prices in South Africa, particularly in respect of current owners. In a number of instances the reason we are having difficulties acquiring land in order to assist farmworkers and residents is because of the price attached to that land.

With regard to the cases which the Rev Moatshe has raised about restitution in the North West, part of the reason we are not able to settle some of the claims is because the prices have been pitched so high. If we were to deal with only a few of those claims, it would take up the entire restitution budget. This is a matter that we have to revisit. I think all of us as public representatives will have to come to a determination of what is just and equitable. This will call for sensitivity and understanding from those who are current occupiers of that land. If we deal with this situation, we will go a long way in fast-tracking the pace of the restitution process.

I heard the hon Conroy say that at the pace at which we are working - I am sorry, I am not sure whether it was him or the hon Van Rensburg - it will take us 20 years to complete the process. I do not think that is really a goal we should set ourselves. Perhaps it could be through circumstances, but if we actually extend the period in which we will settle our restitution process, we will encounter problems. We will never be able to deal with issues of tension such as we are raising today, something we seek to avoid. The more the others are waiting and seeing their land being put to productive use by those from whom the land needs to change hands, the more problems we will encounter. I think it is a matter to which we should all be committed. This is one of the programmes that, where possible, we need to fast-track.

With regard to the issue around import tariffs, it is maybe important to indicate the following to the hon member concerned. The National Marketing Council, as well as the department, have been working with the BTT, which is the Board on Tariffs and Trade. All of them have been working together with the Department of Trade and Industry in order to ensure that the kind of tariffs that are introduced are, firstly, in line with our WTO commitments, but at the same time are not just used as a barrier to trade with other countries, because this is what we are fighting for with our competitors in their countries as well.

Surely, in our work we have always been mindful that some of the countries that we trade with are still overly subsidised in terms of their production, which then creates some form of distortion. My own view is that we must continue through this world system to fight for the reduction and actually complete elimination of subsidies in those countries, so that we can all participate on the same playing field. It is a matter that we are continuing to work at, but it also means that we have to sharpen our instruments. For example, how do we deal with dumping, as well as put in place countervailing measures to protect our producers? It is a matter that we are looking at.

The issue of the ARC budget may not have been raised in either my speech or that of the Deputy Minister. However, we share the concern about that. What is important for me, is to determine to what extent we are using the limited budget the ARC has in order to promote the public good. It is challenge, not only for the Ministry but also for this House, to look at what amount of the budget of the ARC goes towards achieving our national objectives, taking into consideration that the ARC legislation does allow it to leverage other resources from the private sector if they have to do work for private individuals. The question is: Are they costing correctly? Do they count what they do? Are they overstretched? Do we need to refine our institutions of the ARC in order to get maximum benefit for the current resources?

However, for me the larger question is the budget of the science councils in South Africa that we need to look at. The ARC is just one part of that. If hon members will remember, the ARC budget appears on our budget as a transfer from the Ministry of Arts, Culture, Science and Technology. I think the challenge that we face is how to re-examine the entire science budget in South Africa, in other words that of the ARC, the CSIR and other science institutes, especially when taking into consideration the role that science and technology will play in this century. I think that it is a matter we would need to look at.

There are issues which I think Mama Ndzanga correctly raised, which one may unfortunately not be able to deal with in detail. However, some of those issues actually relate to old programmes that were dealt with in the past five years, such as the R62 million grant which was not actually a production loan, but assistance in respect of infrastructure development for emerging farmers.

With regard to other questions, I would actually appeal to hon members and ask whether it is possible for them to give me some of those questions so that we can respond, not just for their province, but also for the benefit of their constituency, in order to be able to deal with some of these matters of concern.

The other issue that I think one would need to respond to is the issue of synergy between provincial departments of land affairs and agriculture. This is a matter which has been dealt with in the meeting of the MECs for Agriculture and Land Affairs. We are working towards an institutional framework which will ensure that there is alignment between these bodies.

I would also like to come back to the issue of state land. I think that for the past three weeks, if I am correct, I have heard so many figures being bandied around, 25 million, 35 million and 32 million, that I am now equally confused as to how much state land we have in South Africa. Perhaps we need to put the issue of state land into context without putting any figure forward or saying that this one is wrong and that one is right.

State land in South Africa is categorised in different ways. We have state land that is used for domestic purposes, where one has army bases, hospitals and schools. That is state land. It is not the type of land that one can use for redistribution. It is land that is being used by the state for the welfare of society. I am saying that when we look at available state land, we should be mindful of what we are talking about.

The other state land we are talking about is the land where we have the old SADT irrigation scheme - the Taung schemes, the Lisbon estate in the Northern Province, Magwatt in the Eastern Cape, Nyoka, Makatini flats and so on. Some of the land is the type of land where we have said, as Government, that through working with the provincial MECS, we will be disposing of it to people who will pass the criteria.

I am saying ``pass the criteria’’ deliberately, because when we look at the disposal of this state land, we take into consideration, firstly, that some of the current people who have been lessees on that land are in serious debt to the state. When we deal with the disposal issue, we will take that into consideration. Secondly, we will also take into consideration the matter that has been raised by an hon member here where people had a lease with an option to buy. What was done in those areas such as Mpofu District in the Eastern Cape is that we have already publicised that land for ownership with the first option to buy by the current lessees. Those who will be able to purchase will purchase. That is one form of disposal. We are also recognising the fact that in areas of the North-West, around the Bala farms, which is getting our urgent attention at the moment, some of the current lessees may not be able to afford the prices. We are saying that for those people, we will extend the lease period in order to ensure that we do not put those people into debt right from the beginning. As part of our programme, as Government, we want to exit from farming. The third category of state land that we are referring to is land that is already occupied. Hon members will remember that, earlier in my speech, I indicated that Government remains the nominal trustee for some of these areas. This applies to a number of areas of tribal land such as the Ninga land and so on. Even though that land belongs to a tribe, in statutory terms, it is state land. So, in looking at issues of redistribution, one needs to be mindful when making statements about why state land is not being used for redistribution that the actual land available for redistribution is very minimal.

I was talking to the officials today and saying that we would come back to this House and the National Assembly to actually make an analysis of how much state land is occupied, the purpose for which it is occupied and how much is available for redistribution, so that we remove this cloud about why Government is not redistributing the 24 million hectares, because this 24 million does not exist.

The other issue that I wanted to refer to is the question which was raised by hon member Versveld around the issue of statutory rights in communal areas. We do have constitutionally enforceable rights in land for those communities. As a democratic government, in the past five years, we have enacted legislation which protects land rights in those areas. We have an Act known as the Interim Protection of Informal Land Rights Act, and through the Minister acting as the trustee, we have been able to ensure that economic development does take place even in those rural places.

Here again a case in point is the Mhinga Trust in the Northern Province where we were able to alienate the land for housing development for that tribe. They have also come back to us for the alienation of another piece of land for ecotourism in that area.

I am saying that it is not all doom and gloom, but that there are challenges all of us have to face. We, as the department, the forerunners, will do everything in our power to ensure that we respond to the challenges that this House has thrown at us and to the concerns that we need to deal with. We will rely on the support of this House in the way in which we interact with members as they raise the issues of their constituencies, while at the same time working with us to ensure that we improve the budgetary situation of Agriculture, both in the provinces and nationally.

I would like to thank the Deputy Minister for the way in which he dealt with the issue of how we need to manage our provincial and national resources in order to ensure that we are able to drive our transformation agenda. This is not an easy thing, because sometimes, as we sit here, we look mainly at the national budget, and forget that Agriculture is a concurrent function. A lot of implementation occurs at a provincial level. If we have to make a change, particularly for those of us who are here as provincial representatives, it is very important to see how we actually look at the way in which our provincial agricultural budgets are structured in order to deliver services.

Where does money go in our provincial agricultural budgets? We are all talking about the improvement of extension. Extension offices are not at national level, but at provincial level. That is where they have to work. We will do everything in order to give support, but I think the responsibility of ensuring that those advisory services are well and alive lies with the provincial government. These are the things that we would need to look at again, because I think the system of governance that we have allows for co-operation, but, at the same time, allocates particular responsibilities to different spheres of government. This is a responsibility that all of us have to share. [Applause.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr M L Mushwana): Order! That concludes the debate on this Vote and I take this opportunity to thank the hon the Minister and her deputy for this lively debate and the information that has been imparted to this House. We look forward to seeing her again in the House.

Debate concluded.

CONSIDERATION OF REPORT OF SELECT COMMITTEE ON SOCIAL SERVICES - CENTRAL DRUG AUTHORITY

Order disposed of without debate.

Report adopted in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.

The Council adjourned at 17:05. ____

            ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS

                      WEDNESDAY, 15 MARCH 2000

ANNOUNCEMENTS:

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces:

1. The Speaker and the Chairperson:

 The following changes have been made to the membership of Committees,
 viz:


 Joint Standing Committee on Defence:


 Appointment: Nqakula, N N.
 Discharged: Maziya, A M.

1. The Speaker and the Chairperson:

 The following papers have been tabled and are now referred to the
 relevant committees as mentioned below:


 (1)    The following papers are referred to the Portfolio Committee on
     Education and Select Committee on Education and Recreation:


     (a)     Report of the Department of Education for 1998-99 [RP 62-
          2000].


     (b)     Government Notice No 1398 published in the Government
          Gazette No 20650 dated 19 November 1999, Notification that the
          President has assented to the Education Laws Amendment Act,
          1999 (Act No 48 of 1999).


     (c)     Government Notice No 1399 published in the Government
          Gazette No 20651 dated 19 November 1999, Notification that the
          President has assented to the Higher Education Amendment Act,
          1999 (Act No 55 of 1999)


     (d)     Government Notice No 1400 published in the Government
          Gazette No 20652 dated 19 November 1999, Notification that the
          President has assented to the National Student Financial Aid
          Scheme Act, 1999 (Act No 56 of 1999).


     (e)     Government Notice No 1422 published in the Government
          Gazette No 20666 dated 25 November 1999, Appointment of
          persons to serve as members of the South African
          Qualifications Authority made in terms of the South African
          Qualifications Authority Act, 1995 (Act No 58 of 1995).


     (f)     Government Notice No 1423 published in the Government
          Gazette No 20669 dated 10 December 1999, Transfer of funds and
          other moveable assets of the State to the public schools made
          in terms of the South African Schools Act, 1996 (Act No 84 of
          1996).


     (g)     Government Notice No 1473 published in the Government
          Gazette No 20692 dated 10 December 1999, National policy
          regarding instructional time for school instructional
          offerings made in terms of the National Education Policy Act,
          1996 (Act No 27 of 1996).


     (h)     Government Notice No 82 published in the Government
          Gazette No 20844 dated 4 February 1999, Norms and standards
          for educators made in terms of the National Education Policy
          Act, 1996 (Act No 27 of 1996).

TABLINGS:

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces:

1. The Speaker and the Chairperson:

 Reports of the Auditor-General on the -


 (1)    Financial Statements of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission
     for 1998-99 [RP 38-2000];


 (2)    Liquidation Account of the Tobacco Board for the period 1
     January 1997 to 31 March 1999 [RP 202-2000];


 (3)    Financial Statements of the Unemployment Insurance Fund for 1996
     [RP 37-2000];


 (4)    Financial Statements of the Mines and Works Compensation Fund
     for 1998-99 [RP 195-99].

1. The Minister of Labour:

 Report of the Department of Labour for 1998-99 [RP 61-2000].

                       THURSDAY, 16 MARCH 2000

ANNOUNCEMENTS:

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces:

1. The Speaker and the Chairperson:

 (1)    The Minister of Labour on 15 March 2000 submitted a draft of the
     Unemployment Insurance Bill 2000, and a memorandum explaining the
     objects of the proposed legislation, to the Speaker and the
     Chairperson in terms of Joint Rule 159. The draft has been
     referred by the Speaker and the Chairperson to the Portfolio
     Committee on Labour and the Select Committee on Labour and Public
     Enterprises, respectively, in accordance with Joint Rule 159(1)(a)
     and (b).


 (2)    The following papers have been tabled and are now referred to
     the relevant committees as mentioned below:


 (1)    The following paper is referred to the Standing Committee on
     Public Accounts for consideration and report and to the Portfolio
     Committee on Justice and Constitutional Development and the Select
     Committee on Security and Constitutional Affairs for information:


     Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements of the
     Truth and Reconciliation Commission for 1998-99 [RP 38-2000].


 (2)    The following paper is referred to the Standing Committee on
     Public Accounts for consideration and report and to the Portfolio
     Committee on Agriculture and Land Affairs and the Select Committee
     on Land and Environmental Affairs for information:


     Report of the Auditor-General on the Liquidation Account of the
     Tobacco Board for the period 1 January 1997 to 31 March 1999 [RP
     202-2000].


 (3)    The following papers are referred to the Standing Committee on
     Public Accounts for consideration and report and to the Portfolio
     Committee on Labour and the Select Committee on Labour and Public
     Enterprises for information:


     (a)     Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements
          of the Unemployment Insurance Fund for 1996 [RP 37-2000].


     (b)     Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements
          of the Mines and Works Compensation Fund for 1998-99 [RP 195-
          99].


     (c)     Report of the Department of Labour for 1998-99 [RP 61-
          2000].

TABLINGS:

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces:

1. The Minister of Trade and Industry:

 Reports of the Board on Tariffs and Trade on the -


 (a)    Rebate of duty on biaxially oriented polypropulene film used in
     the manufacture of self-adhesive tape, Report No 3873;


 (b)    Rebate of the duty on textile fabrics impregnated, coated,
     covered or laminated with polyurethane, for fishing, Report No
     3874;


 (c)    Reduction in the rate of duty on "Agarbatti" other odiriferous
     preparations which operate by burning, Report No 3875;


 (d)    Withdrawal of items under rebate items 307.04 of Schedule 3 to
     the Customs and Excise Act, 1964, Report No 3877;
 (e)    Withdrawal of the provision under rebate item
     313.04/26.10.01.00, Report No 3878;


 (f)    Rebate of full duty on vinyl, chloridevinyl acetate copolymers,
     for the manufacture of floor coverings, Report No 3880.

1. The Minister for Agriculture and Land Affairs:

 Report of the Department of Agriculture for 1999 [RP 59-2000].

COMMITTEE REPORTS:

National Council of Provinces:

1. Report of the Select Committee on Education and Recreation (National Council of Provinces) on visits to the Eastern Cape and KwaZulu-Natal, dated 3 March 2000:

 Two delegations from the Portfolio Committee on Education (National
 Assembly) and the Select Committee on Education and Recreation
 (National Council of Provinces) conducted visits to Eastern Cape and
 KwaZulu-Natal schools on 2, 3 and 4 November 1999, with the following
 mandates:


 A. Objectives:


 In a meeting on 13 October 1999, it was unanimously agreed to and
 envisaged that two delegations from the Committees visit the Eastern
 Cape and KwaZulu-Natal provinces simultaneously during the constituency
 week primarily in the most disadvantaged rural communities, with the
 following objectives:


 (i)    to co-operatively examine along with the provincial Education
       Standing Committees, the capacity of the provinces in dealing
       with the demands set by national Acts, regulations and policies,
       and other challenges as spelt out in the first priority of
       Minister Asmal's Call to Action document which intends to make
       our provincial systems work by making co-operative government
       work;


 (ii)   to examine conditions of physical degradation in schools in
       areas listed by, and according to the objectives of the
       President's rural strategy programme;


 (iii)  to investigate the implementation of the funding norms and
       standards emanating from the South African Schools Act;


 (iv)   to examine ways and means of effecting greater synergy between
       education at provincial and national level in the respective
       provinces;


 (v)    to construct a co-operative relationship between the national
       parliamentary Education Portfolio Committee, the NCOP Select
       Committee and Standing Committees on Education and Culture in
       the provincial legislatures, in order to deal co-operatively
       with challenges constraining the effective development of our
       education system;


 (vi)   to develop a rural development strategy with regard to building
       and renovations of schools, and the provision of resources like
       textbooks and teaching aids in rural schools in both provinces;
       and
 (vii)  to address the challenges of the allocations and management of
       the provincial budget as it relates to education in both
       provinces.


 In view of the fact that the Committees play a vital role in promoting
 co-operative governance between the provinces and central government
 and in improving the quality of life of every citizen on the ground,
 the delegations focused on all affected educational infrastructure
 which were damaged and destroyed by the tornadoes and also on assessing
 a need for repairs and renovations in all of those  schools visited.


 Tirisano


 The Education Portfolio and Select Committee delegations based their
 study tours to the Eastern Cape and KwaZulu-Natal provinces on the
 "Call to Action" (-"Tirisano") of the Minister of Education, Prof K
 Asmal. The document outlining the objectives of the "Call to Action"
 was distributed by the national education department to members of the
 provincial legislatures, Education Directors, school principals and the
 media.
 The delegations emphasised that since the "Tirisano" document was based
 on an extensive consultation of the Minister with a large variety of
 stakeholders, that there was no need to re-invent the wheel by
 searching for other criteria on which to base the visit of the
 delegations to the provinces.


 In particular, the first priority identified in "Tirisano" (Call to
 Action) - "to make our provincial system work by making co-operative
 government work" - was clearly in line with the purpose of the visits
 of the delegations to the provinces. The Minister, Prof K Asmal pointed
 out in "Tirisano" that the three largest provinces, KwaZulu-Natal,
 Eastern Cape and the Northern Province were the poorest provinces with
 the largest backlogs of school buildings and services. It was for this
 reason that the delegations have identified these three provinces for a
 study tour.


 Other issues identified by Tirisano were -


 a)     the inability of many provincial education departments to manage
     education efficiently;


 b)     the empowerment of provincial departments to fulfil its
     statutory responsibilities; and


 c)     dealing effectively with challenges in respect of the allocation
     and management of provincial budgets.


 A rural development strategy


 The delegations also emphasised the importance of establishing rural
 development strategy for vastly rural provinces such as the Eastern
 Cape and KwaZulu-Natal. The resourcing of schools in the rural areas
 with regard to establishing classrooms conducive to learning, the
 adequate provision of textbooks, teaching aids and other learning
 materials must become a priority.


 In their visit to deep rural schools in the provinces, the delegations
 identified vandalised school buildings, destruction of school property
 and absence of textbooks, toilets, proper sanitation and libraries as
 the main problems relating to rural education. However, it appeared as
 if effective management or lack of effective management by principals
 has a major impact on the success or lack of success of rural schools
 in cultivating an atmosphere conducive to learning and teaching.


 Culture of teaching and learning


 There were some poverty-stricken rural schools visited by the
 delegations which had good discipline, where teachers were actively
 teaching and students were actively learning. There were virtually no
 broken windows and vandalised furniture. Although the schools did not
 have enough textbooks, school governing bodies were encouraged to raise
 funds for learner-teaching materials. Many of these poor rural schools
 maintained a matric pass rate in excess of 60% through the positive
 attitude of the principals and teachers, and generally have neat and
 clean premises.


 There were also rural schools where principals had many complaints
 while doing very little themselves to improve the situation. Such
 schools were generally vandalised, desks were either broken or stolen,
 textbooks in class were virtually non-existent and there was poor
 attendance of teachers and learners. At such schools there were also no
 good relationship between the principal, teachers, parents and
 students. These schools maintained a matric pass rate of less than 10%.


 The management capacity of principals has to be urgently investigated
 at rural schools, while those many principals who are
 doing a good job under trying conditions, have to be strongly
 supported.


 Delegations


 The Eastern Cape delegation under the leadership of Prof S M Mayatula
 included Mrs M A A Njobe, Ms P K Mothoagae, Prof L M Mbadi, Mr L Suka
 (NCOP member), Mr P G Qokweni (NCOP member), Mrs J Witbooi (NCOP
 member), Ms N C Manjezi (Committee Secretary) and Ms L Carelse
 (Committee Assistant).


 The KwaZulu-Natal delegation under the leadership of Mr R P Z van den
 Heever included Mr L M Kgwele, Ms P N Mnandi, Mr R Ntuli, Mr A M
 Mpontshane, Adv A H Gaum, Mr A Myeni (Committee Secretary) and Mr J
 Rossouw (Committee Assistant). Adv A H Gaum left the delegation after
 the first day due to pressing engagement in Parliament and in his
 constituency.


 Due to prior commitments and apologies, Mr N M Raju (NCOP member) and
 Mr T D Lee were unable to join the delegations.


 The delegation in the Eastern Cape province was accompanied by
 delegates from the Provincial Standing Committee on Education, which
 included the Chairperson, Mr S Mancotywa and Ms N Mahlawe. The
 delegation in KwaZulu-Natal was accompanied by delegates from the
 Provincial Standing Committee on Education and Culture, which included
 the Chairperson, Mr S Ngidi, Mr Z Nzuza (Committee Secretary), Mr L N
 Mjadu (Personal Secretary: MEC for Education) and Regional Directors of
 Education.


 An attempt was made to obtain a balanced view with input from both the
 departmental official sources, and from school principals. Main
 problems were highlighted and where possible, solutions were
 recommended.
 B. VISIT TO EASTERN CAPE PROVINCE


 1. Visit to the Department of Education - Bisho


 Official view: Department of Education Management


 The Eastern Cape province is one of the three provinces identified by
 President Thabo Mbeki as the poorest and needed extra financial
 assistance. On the first day the delegation was warmly welcomed by the
 MEC for Education Mr Stone Sizani, and had open and constructive
 discussion with top management led by the Superintendent-General, Mr J
 Gordon. The following are some of the areas covered.


 The Eastern Cape Department of Education has inherited six different
 education departments with two of them located within two former
 homelands, namely, Ciskei and Transkei. The department serves 6 447
 schools of which almost 60% are rural and farm schools. According to
 the records of the department, the survey of the needs done in 1996 has
 revealed that it is worst off when it comes to physical infrastructure,
 as the majority of the rural schools are mud structures with no toilets
 or sanitation, fencing, water and electricity. The survey revealed the
 following statistics for the province:


 1 487 (25%) schools have no toilets; 2 931 (49%) schools have no
 sportsfield; 5 528 (93%) schools have no libraries; 5 578 (94%) schools
 have no laboratories; 622 (10%) schools are in need of major repairs;
 and 206 (3%) schools are totally unfit for education and learning.


 The province is often hit by tornadoes, which have caused extensive
 damage to hundreds of schools particularly in the rural areas. This has
 increased the backlog from 15 000 to about 23 000 classrooms and the
 provincial department needs R92 million to rebuild and renovate schools
 damaged by natural disasters. According to Mr Hecther, physical
 infrastructure in the province is the worst in all provinces and an
 emergency fund will be necessary to address disasters and other
 critical matters.


 The Department of Education's capital works programme commenced late in
 1995 with an allocation of R355 million (RDP funded) in the 1995/1996
 departmental budget. This was subsequently extended with the capital
 works allocation of R365 million (RDP funded) from the 1996/97 budget.
 The 1997/98 budget provided R108 million for capital works, but this
 was cut back to R53,9 million when the financial position of the
 Department became evident. In 1998/99 and 1999/2000 budgets, no funding
 has been set aside for any capital programmes.


 To address the classrooms backlog in the province, the department will
 need approximately R600 million per annum over a period of five years
 or approximately R450 million per annum over a period of ten years.
 These substantial allocations can enable the Department to embark on an
 ambitious multi-dimensional programme to address the
 shortage of classrooms in the province.


 (i)    School building programme


 The schools in the Eastern Cape province are reaching shocking levels
 of degradation. In certain instances the building authorities maintain
 that a number of classrooms in several schools should in fact be
 condemned. All these schools are government assets and it is clear
 that, the lack of funding for emergency renovations has reached
 unacceptable proportions.


 In the extreme cases, there exists the danger of a total mess of these
 assets. These assets have deteriorated to such an extent that in many
 cases, they have become a health hazard.


 Although the construction of new schools is of prior importance, major
 capital injection is urgently required in order to restore the existing
 buildings to safer working environments. Funds are desperately needed
 for three primary aims, namely -


 - day-to-day maintenance to cut down expenditure on major repairs and
     renovations and to maintain reasonable standards in all schools;
 - to repair the existing major damage to the loss of valuable assets;
     and
 - to allow for emergency repairs and renovations on a ten-year basis.


 These funds will alleviate the deterioration of the schools, and it is
 obvious that once a regular flow of funding is made available for
 regular maintenance, future excessive capital outlay will then be
 minimised. But it is vital that the current state of general
 degradation is addressed as soon as possible.


 Although the Department has identified the causes of damage in most
 instances and will address the necessary methods of prevention in the
 near future, the following current conditions should be noted to
 necessitate appeal for funds.


 (ii)   General interiors and exteriors


 The walls are worn out resulting to further damage to the structures.
 These walls urgently require major repairs and resurfacing, as they are
 in danger of collapsing and structural damage shows, which needs
 immediate attention.


 A problem which is rife in all schools is that of damaged windows,
 window-panes and frames. An attempt to prevent the theft of window-
 panes by individuals has failed. To date, the only relatively
 successful method of protecting windows against theft and vandalism, is
 the installation of galvanised frames.


 Another hazard facing pupils in most schools is unsafe electrical
 fittings. Inadequate electrical supply in most schools which caters for
 domestic science has rendered these services unusable.


 The structural problems within the schools continue and a number of
 classrooms suffer from damaged ceilings due to leaking roofs.


 Many schools have no toilets, sanitation and ablution facilities. The
 students must have access to these facilities. The systems have long
 been broken, yet the students must continue to use the facilities,
 creating more sanitary health risk. The children who are subjected to
 these shocking conditions are pupils in all Grades as well as teachers.
 The dilemma of vandalism grows daily. It is understood that most
 schools in general make every effort to prevent damage to the
 buildings. Funds are therefore required to institute increased security
 measures in order to protect the government assets. Many schools in
 general have no furniture, libraries, equipment, school halls and
 sporting facilities.


 (iii)  Background on budgets


 The province needs R900 million per annum for non-personnel expenditure
 and for the department to function normally, i.e for normal repairs to
 be carried out. In 1998, the department was allocated R500 million and
 in 1999 it was cut to R200 million. In 1999, the department requested
 R20 million, but for the first time in three years, the department only
 managed to receive R5 million for 6 400 schools for maintenance and for
 emergency repairs. More funding is needed  repair and renovate all the
 damaged schools in the province.


 (iv)   Facilities and personnel in farm schools


 There are various types of farm schools which are operating on the
 property of the farmers. The department provides personnel and material
 resources. Farmers have given the land to the department and it is for
 the department to provide material and human resources to the schools.


 In the majority of cases the department is still experiencing problems
 with regard to scholar transport due to budget cuts. There is provision
 for hostel facilities and the department provides subsidies for
 children residing in those hostels.


 Since 1996, many farm schools were amalgamated because of the current
 staff provisioning norms which stipulate that there must be a minimum
 number of learners in the school has been efficient in terms of human
 resources, curriculum engagements and provisioning various services in
 those schools.


 In the past, farm schools were marginalised. Presently the department
 is doing something in terms of meeting the needs of those farm schools;
 viz: Many programmes are specifically servicing those farm schools,
 many donors and non-governmental organisations, in conjunction with the
 department, have programmes targeting those farm schools, and good work
 is in progress in the majority of those schools.
 The department has received a positive response from donors like
 Vusisizwe Trust and Micro Projects which have donated most of the
 schools that have been built in the farming areas. The help from all
 these donors is assisting the department to make meaningful investments
 in the upliftment of the impoverished communities of the Eastern Cape
 province and the donations are regarded as a truly humane effort to
 improve the impoverished communities.


 (v)    Intergovernmental approach on infrastructure


 On the Department's intergovernmental approach on infrastructure, there
 is a good relationship with government departments, such as the
 department of public works as well as non-governmental organisations.


 The Department of Education meets with local Transitional Local
 Councils (TLCs) on a regional basis to look at the integrated plan,
 linking water, electricity, building and the roads to a particular
 programme, and such programmes are presented in their meetings with the
 TLCs.


 (vi)   Learners support materials


 Learner support materials include textbooks, stationery, science
 materials, equipment as well as consumables. Due to financial
 constraints of the Eastern Cape, this has led the department to
 concentrate on textbooks and stationery only as learner support
 materials. The department is now in the process of issuing stationery
 to Grade 1-9, but for textbooks, the department will prioritise those
 Grades that are in curriculum 2005 (Grade 1, 2 and 3) and later to
 Grade 7, that will start the curriculum next year as well. The supply
 for Grade 12 will only be concentrated to those schools that have had a
 new Grade 12 class since 1997, 1998 and 1999, because those schools
 were not issued any textbooks and stationery.


 In respect of Grade 7, the department has indicated that it will need
 about R42 million, but the department is not so sure whether they will
 receive the full R42 million requested. During the capturing of the
 requisition from the regions, it became clear that R42 million will not
 be adequate to cover all the learning areas in Grade 7.
 With regard to scientific equipment, the department need to get
 assistance in terms of funding in order to make sure that it delivers
 the necessary requirements with the requested budget.


 The crisis the department is facing at present, is that there is a
 backlog of non-payment of both suppliers and employees. The department
 is still experiencing problems with old debts from all sorts of
 suppliers who have not been paid. Again, the department is still having
 outstanding benefits for teachers. This creates a lot of problems with
 regard to finance staff attending to volumes of queries from unions,
 courts and lawyers, etc.


 (vii)  Consumables and provisioning


 To date, the department was unable to make any deliveries. Presently,
 the department is in a process of finalising the orders with the
 publishers.


 There were few schools which received donations to enable them to
 perform their daily school work, but there was very little funding.
 (viii) Financial management


 The department needs other initiatives to assist with the improvement
 of the financial management, e.g. closing of books done by Deloitte &
 Touche, provisioning and payment projects, where training is continuing
 again (also the stock-taking the department is preparing).


 There are a number of projects that have already been started which are
 actually assisting with the financial management. At present, there is
 too much that is demanding of the financial staff, and it is envisaged
 that if the staff can get through that, the department will definitely
 see its way clear to implement the existing projects to assist the
 finance section with the workload.


 2. Visit to Eastern Cape Legislature, Bisho


 The delegation was welcomed by the Provincial Standing Committee on
 Education, chaired by Mr S Mancotywa. The leader of the delegation,
 Prof S M Mayatula, gave a brief overview and objectives of the visits
 to the province.


 3. Visit to King William's Town Examination Centre


 Official view:


 (i) 1999 examinations


 When the delegation visited the examination centre, the province was
 already halfway through the examinations for 1999. No problems, no
 leaking of papers, have been experienced, except the shortage of
 examination papers. Everything within the province is scheduled as
 planned and work is running smoothly and up to standard. The
 examination result will be released by 30 December 1999 for Y2K effect.
 All the necessary tests on the Y2K problem have been running up until
 September 1999 to make sure that their system is Y2K compliant. Reports
 have been made and everything has been cleared.


 The standard of matric results is seen to be the same as there was no
 significant change (from 45% to 47%) in the previous year.
 (ii)  Supplementary examinations


 All the supplementary examinations have been arranged, work has been
 done twelve months in advance.


 (iii) Readiness of markers


 4 600 markers, including the senior markers, have been appointed on the
 basis of experience and qualification. Through the entire province
 there will be five marking centres. All markers will be paid their
 salaries before the end of February 2000.


 (iv)  Outstanding payments


 There is still a backlog of 800 people which have not been paid by the
 department. The department is still struggling with the non-payment of
 people, which include markers, examiners, moderators and examination
 assistants. All the claims were verified and submitted to the
 department on 26 January 1999.


 4. Visit to Phakamani Senior Seconday School: Butterworth
 Official view:


 Phakamani Senior Secondary School has an enrolment figure of 1 005
 learners and 27 educators. The school occupies a disused factory, a
 corrugated iron structure. The entire structure is delapitated and does
 not need any extensive repairs but needs to be closed down. The school
 should be declared a very dangerous health risk. The school has a site
 at Ibika which is few kilometres away and has been there for more than
 five years, awaiting a new building to be erected.


 The classrooms still have huge factory ventilation, which make the
 students always suffer from respiratory diseases, asthma, bronchitis,
 etc. On top of this, there is poor electrical lighting, which damages
 the eyes of the students. Chemicals that were used in the factory were
 never thoroughly cleaned.


 Toilets create another dangerous hazard as they are terribly filthy,
 very dirty and uncleaned yet they are still in use. For more than 1 000
 students as well as teachers to utilise such toilets is a serious
 health risk. In 1999 alone, there were four reported deaths of students
 from the school while others were suffering from rheumatism.


 The school at the former factory is situated far from the township and
 near a growing slum area. This exposes the pupils to rapes and attacks.
 Crime in the school is very high.


 None of the school toilets flush. The students and teachers must have
 access to and continue to use these facilities which are subjected to
 shocking levels of terrible smells, which are creating more sanitary
 health risks. The systems have long been broken due to the leakage of
 drainage pipes. This has caused further damage to the books stored in
 an unusable and damaged library.


 There is also a problem of overcrowding in the school. It has been
 noted that one of the Grade 10 classes in the school has an enrolment
 figure of 123 students. Although the Phakamani community realises that
 there are serious financial constraints with the provincial department
 of education, the school has certainly made great strides in
 establishing the culture of learning. In view of this fact, the
 community deserves a new brick structure and a decent school.


 5. Visit to Esingeni Junior Secondary School: Idutywa


 Official view:


 The school has an enrolment figure of 308 learners and 9 educators. The
 entire school consisted of 10 classrooms of a prefabricated structure.
 Approximately 98% of the entire structure was extensively damaged and
 flattened by the tornado on 16 December 1997.


 Up to now, there has been no intervention by the provincial
 legislature, the department and Idutywa district to help the community
 to alleviate the situation, except for provision of 5 tents to be used
 as classrooms. Even these are not of a good standard for teaching and
 learning.


 At present, there are no toilets/sanitation, no electricity and no
 fence. During the rainy days and bad weather the school does not
 operate at all. It is located not far from the river bank, and some
 pupils have to cross the river on their way to school. When the river
 is full they do not attend the school at all. The school is controlled
 by weather and not by the principal.


 As the clearing of site was not done by the people in the community,
 during the sunny days pupils and teachers are commonly exposed into
 poisonous snakes, which are seen to be dangerous and which may result
 in death to pupils and teachers. Most children have left this school
 due to these appalling conditions.


 There is an urgent need for financial assistance to build a proper
 shelter or a new school in the area by the year 2000.


 6. Visit to St John's College: Umtata


 Official view:


 The school has an enrolment figure of 1 400 learners, 42 educators and
 18 general assistants. The entire school building consist of a brick
 structure, partly prefabricated. Approximately 40% of the entire
 structure has been extensively damaged by the tornado. The school has
 louvre windows in some classrooms and most of the windows are broken
 and need urgent repairs. Due to unavailability of laboratories in the
 school, other classrooms are converted into laboratories, which has led
 to additional shortages of classrooms. During the rainy days, learners
 are cramped together in classrooms which were not affected and this
 again results in overcrowding.


 Although the school building is very old and strong (121 years old), it
 needs major maintenance, constant repairs and renovations. Drainage
 problems, filthy toilets and bathrooms, leaking taps and pipes, are a
 health hazard to pupil and teachers. To repair the entire damages, R3
 million is needed to overhaul the conditions.


 Vandalism in the school is rife and is caused by students themselves.
 In the boys' hostel, the empty dormitories which were damaged, have
 been converted by students themselves to consume alcohol and to smoke
 dagga. There is no furniture in the dining halls.


 7. Visit to James Kobi Junior Secondary School: Umtata


 Official view:


 The school has an enrolment figure of 520 learners and 18 educators.
 The entire school building consists of a brick structure. Only one
 classroom was damaged by fire and destroyed by the tornado. As there is
 no fence around the school premises there is stealing and vandalism of
 the school property, i.e. copper wires, pipe fittings, furniture and
 doors. The school managed to hire security, who are unarmed, to secure
 the entire school building and to safeguard the government property.


 The school was built in 1985. There is no electricity and the school
 maintenance has been non-existent. They have themselves managed to
 raise R20 000 through donors and sponsors to repair the damaged toilets
 and to improve standard conducive for learning.


 8. Visit to E W Pearce Junior Secondary School: Umtata


 Official view:
 The school has an enrolment figure of 900 learners and 23 educators,
 with 2 educators are awaiting redeployment. The school consist of a
 prefabricated structure which has been extensively damaged by the
 storm.


 Approximately 60% of the entire structure, including roofs and floors,
 have been extensively damaged. Most of the windows are broken and some
 of the classroom floors are in a state of collapse, which may result in
 injury to pupils and teachers. Urgent repairs and renovations are
 needed at the school.


 9. Visit to Nyangilizwe Senior Secondary School: Libode


 Official view:


 The school has an enrolment figure of 544 learners and 15 educators.
 The school consist of a brick structure which was damaged by the storm.
 Only 4 classrooms and the school fence were damaged by the tornado,
 which took place on 15 December 1998.


 As there were no repairs and renovations yet done in the school, the
 children in Grade 8 (280) are cramped together in the hall, which
 results in difficulty for the educator to attend to each individual
 student, due to overcrowding. Urgent repairs and renovations are needed
 at the school.


 10. Visit to Tsolo Residency Junior Secondary School: Tsolo


 Official view:


 The school has an enrolment figure of 1 134 learners and 18 educators.
 The school consist of a prefabricated structure, with only 10
 classrooms. Some classes are taking place outside the school premises
 due to the problem of overcrowding. This overcrowding has been causing
 a disastrous and low grasping of learners that may led to havoc because
 of improper involvement of individual attendance, from the teacher to
 the learner.


 As the school is known for its excellent continuous results and is
 located in the centre of town, overcrowding may be one of the factors
 that affect enrolment increments.


 The school urgently need 6 more classrooms to be put in place to ensure
 that proper education is continuing in the school.


 11. Visit to Jongilizwe Senior Secondary School: Tsolo


 Official view:


 The school has an enrolment figure of 390 learners and 21 educators.
 The school consists of brick structure which is extremely delapitated.
 The school was established in 1967 as a public school and was and still
 is attended only by the sons of the Chiefs in the former Transkei
 regime, even before its independence.


 Vandalism in the school building and to property is rife. There is a
 high rate of crime still taking place on school grounds, as a result of
 which deaths have been reported. None of the people in the neighbouring
 communities want to take ownership of the school because of its history
 of being attended by the sons of the Chiefs.


 The school used to be a boarding school, but due to constant violence,
 theft of laboratory equipment, vandalism and uncleanliness, the hostels
 were closed down. The school is seen to be dangerous, day and night.
 Urgent repairs and renovations need to be effected in the school.


 There is no electricity, no fence, no proper sanitation and the toilets
 have long been unused and causing health hazards. Almost all broken
 windows have been damaged by the students themselves.


 As the school principal, Mr S Mnyekentu, needs the education in this
 school to continue, regardless of the appalling circumstances, he needs
 trained armed security guards and proper fencing to curb the vandals
 from entering the premises.


 According to the principal, the quantity surveyors have visited the
 school 4 months ago to assess the material needed to repair and
 renovate the school.
 12. Visit to Petros Jozana Junior Primary School: Umzimkulu


 Official view:


 This school has an enrolment figure of 320 learners and 9 educators.
 The school building consists of 5 classrooms of a brick structure and
 three semi-delapitated classrooms that are not in use. It become
 difficult for the school to function during the rainy days and bad
 weather due to the openness of the roofs and walls. Almost all windows
 are broken. The school received R19 000 from the provincial department
 of education and this fund helped the community to build 2 more
 classrooms of a brick structure.


 As this school is a community-built school, the community has certainly
 made great strides in donating R50,00 per household, with the intention
 to build 4 more classrooms. It has also been envisaged by the people in
 the community that it will take other 5 years to build another 4
 classrooms due to insufficient funding. This school is experiencing
 problems of overcrowding.


 There is no electricity, no sanitation, no fencing, no furniture and
 learning materials, e.g. writing boards, in the school. Funds are
 needed urgently to improve the quality of the infrastructure, which is
 presently not conducive to teaching and learning.


 13. Visit to Vumazonke Junior Secondary School: Umzimkulu


 Official view:


 The school has an enrolment figure of 215 learners and 4 educators. The
 entire school building consist of a mud structure which is extensively
 damaged. The leaking roofs and all broken windows need urgent repairs
 and renovations. The roof is likely to collapse any time and may cause
 injuries to learners and teachers.


 There are no desks and other educational facilities in the school.
 Learner support material for Grade 2 were received, but none of the
 Grade 1 material was distributed to the school. There is an intention
 to open Grade 5 next year but there are no facilities and classrooms to
 effect that.


 The initiative to open the school in 1996 was envisaged by the people
 in the community, seeing the danger of the nearby national road, a few
 kilometres away from the area. As there was no school in the area prior
 to 1996, the children had to cross the national road, which is very
 dangerous, to attend school in other neighbouring villages. The
 community noted with concern the number of road accidents on the nearby
 national road, which have killed many children from the community.


 Again, the new settlement of Sisulu area also gave birth to this
 community-built school.


 There is no electricity, no toilets and sanitation, and no fencing. The
 people in the community need intervention of the government to support
 the school in terms of furniture, learner support material, educational
 facilities and proper decent school.


 14. Visit to Kheswa Junior Secondary School: Umzimkulu
 Official view:


 The school has an enrolment figure of 500 learners and 9 educators. The
 school building partly consists of a mud structure. There has been
 damage to the structure's walls, doors, windows and roofs.
 Approximately 80% of the entire structure has been extensively damaged,
 delapitated and flattened by the tornado, both in 1997 and 1998.


 The efforts to build the school were made by the community itself. The
 community received R20 000 from the provincial department of education
 (MEC's R18 million project) to build more classrooms. As the building
 is likely to collapse at any time, funds are needed to rebuild a proper
 school with bricks.


 15. Visit to Govalele Junior Senior Secondary School: Umzimkulu


 Official view:


 The school has an enrolment figure of 414 learners and 11 educators.
 The school building consists of a brick structure and partly of a mud
 structure. This school is also one of the schools which benefitted from
 the MEC's R18 million project. The school received R19 000, which was
 used to build three classrooms of a brick structure. The other part of
 the school, which is of a mud structure and which is not up to proper
 standard, is also used to accommodate Grade 1 and 2, as there is still
 shortage of classrooms.


 16. Visit to Zwelitsha Senior Secondary School: Mount Ayliff


 Official view:


 The school has an enrolment figure of 169 learners and 7 educators
 (Grade 10 - 12). The school was established in 1999 and the building
 consists of a wooden structure which was donated by Sawmill.


 Due to unavailability of classrooms in this school, junior secondary
 school is accommodated in another nearby school. As this was a
 community-driven project, the school governing body contributed by
 assisting the school in building the structure. There was no financial
 assistance from the government for building the school and its
 maintenance. There is no fencing, no electricity, no security, no
 toilets, no water in the school. Vandalism and theft in the area is
 rife.


 17. Visit to Sigagane Junior Secondary School: Mount Ayliff


 Official view:


 The school has an enrolment figure of 366 learners and 8 educators. The
 school building consists of a newly built brick structure and an
 extensively damaged mud structure.


 Part of the new brick structure was built from the local funds (R36
 000) donated by Gold Mines. Presently, there is no water and
 electricity, no sanitation/toilets, no fencing and no furniture. As
 part of the school is of a mud structure, there are no doors, no
 windows and proper walls, and it is in a state of collapse.


 Many attempts have been made, to the circuit office, to build new and
 additional classrooms, but nothing has been done. No financial
 assistance has been received as promised from the provincial government
 to build a new school. Children are exposed to cold and "flu", and some
 have no accommodation due to these appalling conditions at the school.
 Urgent attention is needed to repair and renovate the school.


 18. Visit to Mhluzini Junior Secondary School: Mount Ayliff


 Official view:


 The school has an enrolment of 270 learners and 4 educators, of whom 2
 educators are awaiting redeployment. The school consists of only 2
 classrooms made of a mud structure. Accommodation in this school is
 regarded as a major problem because 2 classes are accommodated in
 another school in the nearby area.


 Previously the children were accommodated in the tents but due to
 attempts by the community, a structure was built (not yet completed)
 with their own assistance and efforts.


 The school has no furniture, no windows, no ceiling, no toilets, no
 water and electricity and no fencing. As there is no water available,
 the learners themselves do daily routine of bringing water for cleaning
 (using cow dung) and maintenance of the school floors and walls.


 As this is a well-managed and -controlled school, funding is needed to
 effect some of the community-driven initiatives which are aimed at
 maintaining the school in a proper environment conducive to learning
 and teaching.


 19. Visit to Ntshamanzi Senior Primary School: Ntabankulu


 Official view:


 The school has an enrolment figure of 114 learners and 5 educators, of
 whom one educator is awaiting redeployment. The school consists partly
 of a brick and partly of a mud structure. Approximately 50% of the
 school was damaged by the tornado on 18 January 1999. The roof and
 broken windows were blown away by the wind during the storm.


 There are no toilets, no water and electricity and no fencing. None of
 the classrooms have ceilings.


 The community, out of their funds and efforts, has already started to
 repair and rebuild the damaged classrooms which are of a brick
 structure. Funding is needed to complete the initiative taken by the
 community in respect of their school. There is a need for 3 more
 classrooms as there is a backlog of shortage of classrooms.


 The delegation could not visit the Mount Frere schools, Bethlehem S.P.
 School, Nganu J.S School and Mpungutyana J.P School because of time
 constraints. The delegation apologised to these communities.


 C. VISIT TO KWAZULU-NATAL PROVINCE


 The delegation's visit to KwaZulu-Natal coincided with a period of
 simmering political tension in the province caused by the assassination
 that had taken place. This event therefore delayed the starting date of
 the delegation's visit from 2 November 1999 to the next day, 3 November
 1999.


 The committees met on 3 November 1999, and a very cordial meeting was
 held, which was characterised by general goodwill and co-operation. The
 meeting held with the MEC for Education and Culture, Ms E E N kaNkosi
 Shandu, in Ulundi, similarly took place in a very cordial atmosphere.


 1. Establishing a co-operative relationship


 The success of the study tour, despite the prevailing tensions, was
 largely due to the mature and conciliatory manner of the chairperson of
 the provincial committee on education and culture, Mr S Ngidi, who
 accompanied the tour throughout the province. In addition to this, the
 parliamentary delegation assured their hosts that they did not come to
 the province on a fault-finding mission, but that they were eager to
 establish a co-operative relationship with the provincial standing
 committee on education to address the many challenges that constrained
 education in the province. This message was well accepted by the
 provincial committee, who agreed to pursuing such a co-operative
 relationship with the delegation from the Portfolio and Select
 Committees.


 Two members of the Education Portfolio Committee, Ms P N Mnandi and Mr
 A M Mpontshane, were identified as the KwaZulu-Natal-based MPs who
 would serve as a link between the KZN provincial committee on Education
 and Culture and the parliamentary education portfolio committee.


 Implementation of adherence to national legislation, e.g. the South
 African School Act, in terms of abolishing corporal punishment is
 problematic. It came to the observation of the delegation that corporal
 punishment is rife in many schools in the province.


 2. Visit to Maritzburg College


 Official view:


 In this school, a meeting was held with the principal, Mr K Elliot.
 This school is a former model C school. It was mentioned that the
 process of transformation and integration of pupils was moving at a
 slow pace, e.g. enrolment of pupils from other racial groups was
 minimal, and the staff was predominantly from one race group. The
 infrastructure and recreational facilities are in good condition.


 3.  Visit to Sobantu High School


 Official view:


 This is a disadvantaged inner-city public school. In this school there
 is a large staff turnover, and teacher redeployment has affected the
 teachers' performance. The school lacks recreational facilities and has
 limited facilities, e.g. a library with very few books.


 Most of the windows are broken, some part of the building has been
 extensively vandalised, and there is poor sanitation.


 4.  Visit to Charles Sabelo High School: Umbumbulu, Natal Midlands


 Official view:


 This is a disadvantaged rural school. In this school the physical
 structure is decaying. The school principal had made a request to the
 provincial department of education to renovate the school.


 Vandalism to school property is rife in the area. The school needs to
 be fenced so as to prevent vandals from entering the school premises.
 The school work together with the community police forum in trying to
 curb vandalism in the school.


 There is a shortage of books and furniture in the school.


 5. Visit to Amanzimtoti Primary School: Amanzimtoti


 Official view:


 This is a former Model C school. In this school, there is a good
 physical structure with good facilities, which include a library and
 computer laboratory. There is a good working relationship with the
 school governing body. The programme of fundraising is in place and has
 a great impact on the school. The integration of pupils is moving very
 slowly. It was noted that the entire staff is predominantly of one race
 and one gender.


 6. Visit to Keats Drift Primary School: Greytown


 Official view:


 This school is a disadvantaged rural school. The school has water and a
 telephone line. The school governing body in this school still need to
 be trained on certain issues pertaining to the management of the school
 and its activities. Awareness on the need for fundraising is necessary.


 7. Visit to Cabangokuhle High School: Umsinga


 Official view:
 This school is a disadvantaged deep rural school. The school lacks
 various facilities, namely a library, books, a science laboratory and
 furniture. There is a serious furniture shortage which needs urgent
 attention.


 8. Visit to Bathembu Secondary School: Umsinga


 Official view:


 This school is a disadvantaged rural school located at Umsinga. It was
 noted that the conditions at the school were very poor, and extensive
 repairs and renovations are needed to bring the school up to proper
 standard. Vandalism is high on the property of the school, e.g. on
 furniture and windows.


 9. Visit to Ekudubekeni High School: Mahlabathini


 Official view:


 This is a disadvantaged rural school located at Mahlabathini. The
 school received funding from the Indian Religious Group based in Durban
 to build the school. The school offers streams of teaching subjects,
 namely science, trade, commerce and performing art.


 Although the school is situated in a rural community, for the past five
 years, it has had an excellent continuous pass rate of 90%.


 10. Visit to KwaZulu-Natal Legislature: Ulundi


 Official view: MEC for Education & Culture, Ms E E N kaNkosi-Shandu


 The rural schools need extra educational facilities. Discipline is
 maximal in most of the schools. The relationship between the teachers'
 union and the MEC has improved. The schools in the rural communities
 lack capacity in terms of finance. The Netherlands is assisting the
 province in Science and English subjects.


 RECOMMENDATIONS:


 Areas that need urgent attention:


 a)     major repairs and renovations are required in most schools;
 b)     need to improve and upgrade all the existing libraries and
    development of mobile libraries;
 c)     need to implement effective school management in most schools;
 d)     apacity-building of school governing bodies in financial
    management and school governance in most schools;
 e)     need for electricity, sanitation and clean running water;
 f)     co-operative relationship with provincial standing committee;
 g)     provincial departments of education should monitor adherence to
    national legislations, e.g. abolishing of corporal punishment;
 h)     need to inculcate a sense of ownership of schools by
    communities;
 i)     need to encourage co-operation between previously advantaged and
    disadvantaged schools;
 j)     need to develop a rural strategy educational plan based on these
    visits and in accordance with the President's integrated rural
    strategy programme;
 k)     special budgetary provisions which have to be made in order to
    attend both to backlogs and current need and inadequacies.
    Furthermore, provision has to be made to meet needs caused by
    natural disasters; and
 l)     the study tour report should be assessed within the broader
    context of the national schools' survey of needs.


 D. CONCLUSION


 The Committees are satisfied that it attained most of the objectives
 identified for the study tours to the Eastern Cape and KwaZulu-Natal
 provinces.


 The delegations managed to lay the basis for a very constructive co-
 operative relationship with provincial governance structures. In both
 the Eastern Cape and KwaZulu-Natal, open and constructive discussions
 took place between the respective MECs, the top management of the
 Department and the delegations from Parliament.


 The visits also succeeded in highlighting the principles of Tirisano,
 the Minister's Call to Action to provincial structures. Tirisano
 booklets were distributed as far as the delegation toured, and the
 vision of the Minister in assisting "provincial education departments
 to manage education efficiently" was emphasised.


 The delegations examined conditions of physical degradation in the
 poorest rural areas according to the objectives of the tour. It found
 conditions of immense poverty, dilapidated schools and a lack of basic
 facilities at educational institutions. However, even under the poorest
 conditions in schools, the delegations found that the dedication,
 discipline and hard work of teachers in class had a greater influence
 on good examination results than that which the physical conditions in
 schools could bring about.


 The information gained by the delegations during the study tours have
 created a firm basis on which an integrated rural strategy could be
 based.


 The Committees are therefore satisfied that a solid start has been made
 in the creation of co-operative relationship between national and
 provincial governments through the visits undertaken to the Eastern
 Cape and KwaZulu-Natal on 2,3 and 4 November 1999.


 E. LIST OF PARTICIPANTS


 1.     MECs for Education and Culture: Eastern Cape and KwaZulu-Natal.
 2.     Provincial Department of Education: Eastern Cape and KwaZulu-
    Natal.
 3.     Provincial Standing Committees on Education & Culture: Eastern
    Cape and KwaZulu-Natal.
 4.     Chairpersons of Standing Committees on Education: Eastern Cape
    (Mr S Mancotywa) and KwaZulu-Natal (Mr S Ngidi).
 5.     All principals and management of all schools visited.
 6.     Various communities, including school governing bodies.
 7.     Regional, district and circuit managers.
 8.     All communities visited.


 Report to be considered.

                        MONDAY, 20 MARCH 2000 ANNOUNCEMENTS:

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces:

1. The Speaker and the Chairperson:

 (1)    The Joint Tagging Mechanism (JTM) on 16 March 2000 in terms of
     Joint Rule 160(6), classified the following Bill as a section 75
     Bill:


     (i)     South African Communications Regulatory Authority Bill [B
          14 - 2000] ((National Assembly - sec 75) - (Portfolio
          Committee on Communications - National Assembly).

                      WEDNESDAY, 22 MARCH 2000

TABLINGS:

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces:

Papers:

1. The Speaker and the Chairperson: Reports of the Auditor-General on the -

 (1)    Financial Statements of the South African Medical Research
     Council for 1998-99 [RP 43-2000];


 (2)    Financial Statements of the South African Diamond Board for 1998-
     99 [RP 42-2000];


 (3)    Financial Statements of the Universal Service Agency for 1997-98
     [RP 46-2000];


 (4)    Financial Statements of Vote 35 - Transport for 1998-99 [RP 159-
     1999];


 (5)    Financial Statements of Vote 34 - Trade and Industry for 1998-99
     [RP 158-1999].

1. The Minister of Minerals and Energy:

 Report of the Council for Geoscience for 1998-99 including the Report
 of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements.

                       THURSDAY, 23 MARCH 2000 ANNOUNCEMENTS:

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces:

1. The Speaker and the Chairperson:

 (1)    Assent by the President of the Republic in respect of the
     following Bills:


     (a)     South African Airways Unallocatable Debt Bill [B 1 - 2000]
           - Act No 7 of 2000 (assented to and signed by President on
           16 March 2000);


     (b)     Tourism Amendment Bill [B 3 - 2000] - Act No 8 of 2000
           (assented to and signed by President on 15 March 2000); and


     (c)     Lotteries Amendment Bill [B 13B - 2000] - Act No 10 of
           2000 (assented to and signed by President on 16 March 2000).

National Council of Provinces:

1. The Chairperson: (1) The following private member’s legislative proposal was submitted to the Chairperson on 1 March 2000, in accordance with Rule 178:

   (i) Promotion of Multilingualism Bill (Mr A E van Niekerk).

   The legislative proposal has been referred to the Select Committee on Members’ and Provincial Legislative Proposals by the Chairperson, in accordance with Rule 179. - ]

TABLINGS:

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces:

Papers:

1. The Minister for Agriculture and Land Affairs:

 Report of the Department of Land Affairs for 1999-2000 [RP 51-2000].

National Council of Provinces:

1. The Chairperson:

 (1)    The President of the Republic submitted the following letter,
     dated 3 March 2000, to the Chairperson  of the National Council of
     Provinces, informing Parliament, in terms of section 201(2) of the
     Constitution, 1996, of the employment of the South African
     National Defence Force in terms of section 201(2)(c) of the
     Constitution, 1996.


     REPORT IN TERMS OF SECTION 201(2) OF THE CONSTITUTION OF THE
     REPUBLIC OF SOUTH AFRICA, 1996 (ACT 108 OF 1996) ON THE EMPLOYMENT
     OF THE SOUTH AFRICAN NATIONAL DEFENCE FORCE FOR SERVICES RELATED
     TO FLOODS IN THE GAZA, MAPUTO AND SOFALA PROVINCES.


     This serves to inform the National Council of Provinces that I
     authorised the employment of the South African National Defence
     Force (SANDF) personnel and equipment in the Provinces. This
     employment is extended from 25 February 2000 to 17 March 2000.


     This employment was authorised in accordance with the provisions
     of section 82(4)(b)(ii) read with section 227(1)(d) of the
     Constitution of the Republic of South Africa, 1993 (Act No 200 of
     1993), [which sections continue to be in force in terms of Item
     24(1) of Schedule 6 to the Constitution of the Republic of South
     Africa, 1996 (Act No 108 of 1996)], read further with section
     3(2)(a)(v) of the Defence Act, 1957 (Act No 44 of 1957).


     A request was received by the Department of Foreign Affairs from
     the Government of the Republic of Mozambique to render
     humanitarian assistance in the location and relocation of people
     trapped by the flooding, and to assist in distributing and
     delivering emergency supplies to the affected areas. In line with
     our international obligations to render such assistance, the
     deployment was authorised.


     The deployment consisted of 88 personnel, 5 X Oryx helicopters, 2
     X BK117 helicopters, 1 X Casa 212 and 3 X Cessna 208 light
     aircraft. The personnel and equipment were deployed to Beira and
     Maputo for the duration of the effort. Other support aircraft
     which were used for the deployment of equipment and support
     personnel to the two locations were 2 X C130 transport aircraft.


     Financial implications


     - The estimated total cost of this deployment will be R10 267 528-
       00.


     - I have consulted the Minister of Finance who will make the
       necessary funds available through the Department of Foreign
       Affairs and Defence.


     I will also communicate this report to the National Assembly, and
     wish to request that you bring the contents of this report to the
     notice of Members of the National Council of Provinces.


     Referred to the Joint Standing Committee on Defence.

                        MONDAY, 27 MARCH 2000

TABLINGS:

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces:

Papers:

1. The Speaker and the Chairperson:

 Reports of the Auditor-General on the -


 (a)    Financial Statements on Vote 4 - Agriculture for 1998-99 [RP 129-
     1999].


 (b)    Financial Statements on Vote 23 - Land Affairs and the
     Registration of Deeds Trading Account for 1998-99 [RP 147-1999].

                       TUESDAY, 28 MARCH 2000

TABLINGS:

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces:

Papers:

1. Speaker and the Chairperson:

 (1)    Reports of the Auditor-General on the -


     (a)     Deposit Account Administered by the Department of Justice
          for 1997-98 [RP 196-99].


     (b)     Certain Transport-Related Agencies, Authorities and Funds
          [RP 60-2000].


 (2)    Report and Financial Statements of the Special Investigating
     Unit for 1998-99 including Report of the Auditor-General on the
     Financial Statements.

1. Minister for the Public Service and Administration:

 Report of the Public Service Commission on Evaluation of Departments'
 Annual Reports as an Accountability Mechanism [RP 193-1999].

                      WEDNESDAY, 29 MARCH 2000 ANNOUNCEMENTS:

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces:

1. Speaker and the Chairperson:

 The following papers have been tabled and are now referred to the
 relevant committees as mentioned below:


 (1)    The following papers are referred to the Portfolio Committee on
     Agriculture and Land Affairs and the Select Committee on Land and
     Environmental Affairs:


     (a)     Report of the Department of Agriculture for 1999-2000 [RP
          59-2000];


     (b)     Report of the Department of Land Affairs for 1999-2000 [RP
          51-2000].
 (2)    The following paper is referred to the Standing Committee on
     Public Accounts for consideration and report and to the Portfolio
     Committee on Health and the Select Committee on Social Services
     for information:


     Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements of the
     South African Medical Research Council for 1998-99 [RP 43-2000].


 (3)    The following paper is referred to the Standing Committee on
     Public Accounts for consideration and report and to the Portfolio
     Committee on Minerals and Energy and the Select Committee on
     Economic Affairs for information:

1. Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements of the South African Diamond Board for 1998-99 [RP 42-2000].

 (4)    The following paper is referred to the Standing Committee on
     Public Accounts for consideration and report and to the Portfolio
     Committee on Communications and the Select Committee on Labour and
     Public Enterprises for information:


     Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements of the
     Universal Service Agency for 1998-99 [RP 46-2000].


 (5)    The following paper is referred to the Standing Committee on
     Public Accounts for consideration and report and to the Portfolio
     Committee on Transport and the Select Committee on Public Services
     for information:
     Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements of Vote
     35 - Transport for 1998-99 [RP 159-1999].


 (6)    The following paper is referred to the Standing Committee on
     Public Accounts for consideration and report and to the Portfolio
     Committee on Trade and Industry and the Select Committee on
     Economic Affairs for information:


     Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements of Vote
     34 - Trade and Industry for 1998-99 [RP 158-1999].


 (7)    The following paper is referred to the Portfolio Committee on
     Minerals and Energy and the Select Committee on Economic Affairs:


     Report of the Council for Geoscience for 1998-99 including the
     Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements.


 (8)    The following paper is referred to the Portfolio Committee on
     Justice and Constitutional Development and the Select Committee on
     Security and Constitutional Affairs and the Report of the Auditor-
     General is referred to the Standing Committee on Public Accounts:


     Report and Financial Statements of the Special Investigating Unit
     for 1998-99 including Report of the Auditor-General on the
     Financial Statements.


 (9)    The following paper is referred to the Joint Standing
     Subcommittee on Accountability for consideration and report and to
     all portfolio committees and select committees and the Standing
     Committee on Public Accounts for consideration:


     Report of the Public Service Commission on Evaluation of
     Departments' Annual Reports as an Accountability Mechanism [RP 193-
     1999].


 (10) The following papers are referred to the Standing Committee on
     Public Accounts for consideration and report and to the Portfolio
     Committee on Agriculture and Land Affairs and the Select Committee
     on Land and Environmental Affairs for information:


     (a)     Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements
          on Vote 4 - Agriculture for 1998-99 [RP 129-1999].


     (b)     Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements
          on Vote 23 - Land Affairs and the Registration of Deeds
          Trading Account for 1998-99 [RP 147-1999].

TABLINGS:

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces:

Papers:

1. The Minister for the Public Service and Administration:

 Report of the Public Service Commission for 1999 [RP 44-2000].

                        FRIDAY, 31 MARCH 2000 ANNOUNCEMENTS:

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces:

1. The Speaker and the Chairperson:

 (1)    The Minister of Public Works on 28 March 2000 submitted drafts
     of the following Bills, and memorandums explaining the objects of
     the proposed legislation, to the Speaker and the Chairperson in
     terms of Joint Rule 159:


        Council for the Built Environment Bill, 2000


        Engineering Profession Bill, 2000


        Architectural Profession Bill, 2000
        Landscape Architectural Profession Bill, 2000


        Property Valuers Profession Bill, 2000


        Quantity Surveying Profession Bill, 2000


        Project and Construction Management Professions Bill, 2000


     The drafts have been referred by the Speaker and the Chairperson
     to the Portfolio Committee on Public Works and the Select
     Committee on Public Services, respectively, in accordance with
     Joint Rule 159(1)(a) and (b).

1. The Speaker and the Chairperson:

 (1)    Assent by the President of the Republic in respect of the
     following Bill:


    Land Affairs General Amendment Bill [B 64D - 99] - Act No 11 of
    2000 (assented to and signed by President on 22 March 2000).

COMMITTEE REPORTS:

National Council of Provinces:

1. Report of the Select Committee on Social Services on Central Drug Authority, dated 25 February 2000:

   The Select Committee on Social Services, having considered the request of the Council to make recommendations for the appointment of additional members to the Central Drug Authority, referred to it, recommends that the Minister for Welfare and Population Development, in terms of section 2(3)(b) of the Prevention and Treatment of Drug Dependency Act, 1992 (Act No. 20 of 1992), be advised to appoint the following persons:

       Bayever, D N; Da Rocha-Silva, L; Fredericks, T J; Hoekstra, M
       C; Jardine, G F; Malaka, D W; Mathe, S V; Moleko, A S;
       Moodliar, D C; Mynhardt, D C; Parry, C D H; Rataemane, S.
   

 Report to be considered.

                        MONDAY, 3 APRIL 2000

ANNOUNCEMENTS:

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces:

1. The Speaker and the Chairperson:

 The following papers have been tabled and are now referred to the
 relevant committees as mentioned below:


 (1)    The following paper is referred to the Portfolio Committee on
     Public Service and Administration and the Select Committee on
     Local Government and Administration:


     Report of the Public Service Commission for 1999 [RP 44-2000].


 (2)    The following paper is referred to the Portfolio Committee on
     Home Affairs and the Select Committee on Social Services:


     Report and Financial Statements of the Film and Publication Board
     for 1998-99.

National Council of Provinces:

1. The Chairperson:

 Message from National Assembly to National Council of Provinces:


 Bill passed by National Assembly on 16 March 2000 and transmitted for
 concurrence:


 (1)    Competition Amendment Bill [B 10B - 2000] (National Assembly -
     sec 75) - (Select Committee on Economic Affairs - National Council
     of Provinces).

TABLINGS:

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces:

Papers:

1. The Minister for the Public Service and Administration:

 Report of the Public Service Commission on the Investigation into
 Dismissals as a result of Misconduct [RP 199-99].


 Referred to the Portfolio Committee on Public Service and
 Administration and the Select Committee on Local Government and
 Administration.

                        TUESDAY, 4 APRIL 2000

TABLINGS:

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces:

Papers:

1. The Minister of Transport:

 (1)    Letter of Notification of Association with the International
     COSPAS/SASAT Programme as a Ground Segment Provider, tabled in
     terms of section 231(2) of the Constitution, 1996.


 (2)    Explanatory Memorandum to the Letter of Association with the
     International COSPAS/SASAT Programme as a Ground Segment Provider.

1. The Minister of Trade and Industry:

Reports of the Board on Tariffs and Trade on the -


 (a)    Application for a reduction in the rate of duty on certain
     frozen and canned berries and fruit, Report No 3882;


 (b)    Application for increase in the rate of duty on plastic pipes,
     Report No 3883;


 (c)    Application for rebate of the duty on frozen, mechanically
     deboned meat of bovine animals for the manufacture of sausage,
     Report No 3884;


 (d)    Application for increase in the rate of duty on industrial
     gloves and application for rebate of duty on synthetic rubber
     latex used in the manufacture of industrial gloves, Report No
     3886;


 (e)    Rebate of duty on anti-oxidants classifiable under tariff
     subheading 3812.30.10, Report No 3887;


 (f)    Application for a reduction in the rate of duty on anti-oxidants
     and accelerators, Report No 3888;


 (g)    Increase in the duty on thin sheets (voiles) of glass fibre,
     Report No 3893;


 (h)    Reduction in the rate of duty on other extracted oleoresins
     obtained from extraction of natural raw plant material classified
     under tariff subheading 3301.90.70, Report No 3895.

                       WEDNESDAY, 5 APRIL 2000

ANNOUNCEMENTS:

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces:

1. The Speaker and the Chairperson: (1) The Joint Tagging Mechanism (JTM) on 5 April 2000 in terms of Joint Rule 160(6), classified the following Bill as a section 76 Bill:

   (i) National House of Traditional Leaders Amendment Bill [B 15 - 2000] (National Assembly - sec 76) - (Portfolio Committee on Provincial and Local Government - National Assembly).

TABLINGS:

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces:

Papers:

1. The Speaker and the Chairperson:

 Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements of the Human
 Resources Fund for 1998-99 [RP 55-2000].

1. The Minister of Trade and Industry:

Reports of the Board on Tariffs and Trade on the -


 (1)    Increase in the rate of duty on other pigments and preparations
     based on titanium dioxide, Report No 3889;


 (2)    Increase in the rate of duty on alkyd resins, Report No 3894.

                       THURSDAY, 6 APRIL 2000

ANNOUNCEMENTS:

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces:

1. The Speaker and the Chairperson:

 (1)    The following Bills were introduced in the National Assembly on
     6 April 2000 and referred to the Joint Tagging Mechanism (JTM) for
     classification in terms of Joint Rule 160:


    (i)      Council for the Built Environment Bill [B 16 - 2000]
           (National Assembly - sec 75) - (Portfolio Committee on
           Public Works - National Assembly) [Explanatory summary of
           Bill and prior notice of its introduction published in
           Government Gazette No 20994 of 24 March 2000.]


    (ii)     Architectural Profession Bill [B 17 - 2000] (National
           Assembly - sec 75) - (Portfolio Committee on Public Works -
           National Assembly) [Explanatory summary of Bill and prior
           notice of its introduction published in Government Gazette
           No 20994 of 24 March 2000.]


     (iii)   Landscape Architectural Profession Bill [B 18 - 2000]
           (National Assembly - sec 75) - (Portfolio Committee on
           Public Works - National Assembly) [Explanatory summary of
           Bill and prior notice of its introduction published in
           Government Gazette No 20994 of 24 March 2000.]


      (iv)    Engineering Profession Bill [B 19 - 2000] (National
           Assembly - sec 75) - (Portfolio Committee on Public Works -
           National Assembly) [Explanatory summary of Bill and prior
           notice of its introduction published in Government Gazette
           No 20994 of 24 March 2000.]


      (v)     Property Valuers Profession Bill [B 20 - 2000] (National
           Assembly - sec 75) - (Portfolio Committee on Public Works -
           National Assembly) [Explanatory summary of Bill and prior
           notice of its introduction published in Government Gazette
           No 20994 of 24 March 2000.]


      (vi)    Project and Construction Management Professions Bill [B 21
           - 2000] (National Assembly - sec 75) - (Portfolio Committee
           on Public Works - National Assembly) [Explanatory summary of
           Bill and prior notice of its introduction published in
           Government Gazette No 20994 of 24 March 2000.]


      (vii)Quantity Surveying Profession Bill [B 22 - 2000] (National
           Assembly - sec 75) - (Portfolio Committee on Public Works -
           National Assembly) [Explanatory summary of Bill and prior
           notice of its introduction published in Government Gazette
           No 20994 of 24 March 2000.]

TABLINGS: National Council of Provinces:

Papers:

1. The Chairperson:

 The President of the Republic submitted the following letter, dated 28
 March 2000, to the Chairperson of the National Council of Provinces,
 informing Parliament, in terms of section 201(2) of the Constitution,
 1996, of the employment of the South African National Defence Force in
 terms of section 201(2)(c) of the Constitution, 1996.


 REPORT IN TERMS OF SECTION 201(2) OF THE CONSTITUTION OF THE REPUBLIC
 OF SOUTH AFRICA, 1996 (ACT 108 OF 1996), ON THE EMPLOYMENT OF THE SOUTH
 AFRICAN NATIONAL DEFENCE FORCE IN TERMS OF SECTION 201(2)(c) OF THE
 CONSTITUTION, 1996, IN THE FULFILLMENT OF AN INTERNATIONAL OBLIGATION
 IN THE REPUBLIC OF MOZAMBIQUE


 1.     This serves to inform the National Council of Provinces that I
     authorised the extension of the employment of the South African
     National Defence Force (SANDF) personnel and aircraft, in the
     Republic of Mozambique, in fulfillment of an international
     obligation. This employment was authorised in accordance with the
     provisions of Section 82(4)(b)(ii) read with Section 227(1)(b) of
     the Constitution of the Republic of South Africa, 1993 (Act No 200
     of 1993), [which sections continue to be in force in terms of Item
     24(1) of Schedule 6 of the Constitution of the Republic of South
     Africa, 1996 (Act No 108 of 1996)], read with Section 3(2)(a)(iv)
     of the Defence Act, 1957 (Act No 44 of 1957).


 2.     This employment is in compliance with the Republic of South
     Africa's regional support, to the Government of the People's
     Republic of Mozambique, for humanitarian assistance in the
     preservation of life, health, and property, resulting from the
     current widespread rains having caused extensive and serious
     flooding in Mozambique. Due to the necessity for the continued
     support and distribution of aid to Mozambican citizens adversely
     affected by the severe flooding, and due to the deterioration of
     the situation, an extension of the deployment was requested.


 3.     The deployment has been extended from 17 March 2000 to 07 April
     2000.


 4.     The deployment will consist of 60 personnel, three Oryx
     helicopters, two BK 117 helicopters, two Casa-212 transport
     aircraft and two light aircraft.


 5.     The estimated total cost for the extended period is R6 077 232 -
     00.


 6.     I will communicate this report to the Members of the National
     Assembly and wish to request that you bring it to the notice of
     the Members of the National Council of Provinces.


 Regards




 TM MBEKI

                        FRIDAY, 7 APRIL 2000

ANNOUNCEMENTS:

National Council of Provinces:

1. The Chairperson:

 Message from National Assembly to National Council of Provinces:


 Bill passed by National Assembly on 7 April 2000 and transmitted for
 concurrence:


 (a)    Nonprofit Organisations Amendment Bill [B 9 - 2000] (National
     Assembly - sec 76(1)) - (Select Committee on Social Services -
     National Council of Provinces).

TABLINGS:

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces:

Papers:

1. The Minister for the Public Service and Administration:

 Report of the Public Service Commission on the Management of
 Remunerated Overtime in the Public Service [RP 171-99].

                        MONDAY, 10 APRIL 2000

COMMITTEE REPORTS:

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces:

1. Report of the Joint Standing Committee on Intelligence on Appointment of Inspector-General, dated 3 April 2000:

   The Joint Standing Committee on Intelligence, having considered and examined nominations for the position of Inspector-General of Intelligence, nominates, in terms of section 7 of the Intelligence Services Control Act, 1994, the following person for appointment as Inspector-General:

       Randera, M F.
   

 Report to be considered.

                       TUESDAY, 11 APRIL 2000

ANNOUNCEMENTS:

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces:

1. The Speaker and the Chairperson:

 1.     The Minister for Provincial and Local Government on 10 April
     2000 submitted a draft of the Local Government: Municipal Systems
     Bill, 2000 and a memorandum explaining the objects of the proposed
     legislation, to the Speaker and the Chairperson in terms of Joint
     Rule 159. The draft has been referred by the Speaker and the
     Chairperson to the Portfolio Committee on Provincial and Local
     Government and the Select Committee on Local Government and
     Administration, respectively, in accordance with Joint Rule
     159(2).


 2.     The following papers have been tabled and are now referred to
     the relevant committees as mentioned below:
     (1)     The following papers are referred to the Portfolio
          Committee on Trade and Industry and to the Select Committee on
          Economic Affairs:


          Reports of the Board on Tariffs and Trade on the -


          (a) Rebate of duty on biaxially oriented polypropulene film
              used in the manufacture of self-adhesive tape, Report No
              3873;


          (b) Rebate of the duty on textile fabrics impregnated, coated,
              covered or laminated with polyurethane, for fishing,
              Report No 3874;


          (c) Reduction in the rate of duty on "Agarbatti" other
              odiriferous preparations which operate by burning, Report
              No 3875;


          (d) Withdrawal of items under rebate items 307.04 of Schedule
              3 to the Customs and Excise Act, 1964, Report No 3877;


          (e) Withdrawal of the provision under rebate item
              313.04/26.10.01.00, Report No 3878;


          (f) Rebate of full duty on vinyl, chloridevinyl acetate
              copolymers, for the manufacture of floor coverings,
              Report No 3880.


     (2)     The following paper is referred to the Standing Committee
          on Public Accounts for consideration and report. It is also
          referred for information to the Portfolio Committee on Justice
          and Constitutional Development and to the Select Committee on
          Security and Constitutional Affairs:


          Report of the Auditor-General on the Deposit Account
          Administered by the Department of Justice for 1997-98 [RP 196-
          99].


     (3)     The following paper is referred to Standing Committee on
          Public Accounts for consideration and report. It is also
          referred for information to the Portfolio Committee on
          Transport and to the Select Committee on Public Services:


          Report of the Auditor-General on certain Transport-Related
          Agencies, Authorities and Funds [RP 60-2000].


     (4)     The following papers are referred to the Portfolio
          Committee on Transport and to the Select Committee on Public
          Services for consideration:


          (a) Letter of Notification of Association with the
              International COSPAS/SASAT Programme as a Ground Segment
              Provider, tabled in terms of section 231(2) of the
              Constitution, 1996.
          (b) Explanatory Memorandum to the Letter of Association with
              the International COSPAS/SASAT Programme as a Ground
              Segment Provider.


     (5)     The following papers are referred to the Portfolio
          Committee on Trade and Industry and to the Select Committee on
          Economic Affairs:


          Reports of the Board on Tariffs and Trade on the -


          (a) Application for a reduction in the rate of duty on certain
              frozen and canned berries and fruit, Report No 3882;


          (b) Application for increase in the rate of duty on plastic
              pipes, Report No 3883;


          (c) Application for rebate of the duty on frozen, mechanically
              deboned meat of bovine animals for the manufacture of
              sausage, Report No 3884;


          (d) Application for increase in the rate of duty on industrial
              gloves and application for rebate of duty on synthetic
              rubber latex used in the manufacture of industrial
              gloves, Report No 3886;


          (e) Rebate of duty on anti-oxidants classifiable under tariff
              subheading 3812.30.10' Report No 3887;


          (f) Application for a reduction in the rate of duty on anti-
              oxidants and accelerators, Report No 3888;


          (g) Increase in the duty on thin sheets (voiles) of glass
              fibre, Report No 3893;


          (h) Reduction in the rate of duty on other extracted
              oleoresins obtained from extraction of natural raw plant
              material classified under tariff subheading 3301.90.70,
              Report No 3895;


          (i) Increase in the rate of duty on other pigments and
              preparations based on titanium dioxide, Report No 3889;


          (j) Increase in the rate of duty on alkyd resins, Report No
              3894.


     (6)     The following paper is referred to the Portfolio Committee
          on Public Service and Administration and to the Select
          Committee on Local Government and Administration for
          consideration and report. It is also referred for information
          to the Portfolio Committee on Labour and to the Select
          Committee on Labour and Public Enterprises:


          Report of the Public Service Commission on the Management of
          Remunerated Overtime in the Public Service [RP 171-99].


     (7)     The following paper is referred to the Standing Committee
          on Public Accounts for consideration and report. It is also
          referred to the Portfolio Committee on Communications and to
          the Select Committee on Labour and Public Enterprises for
          information:


          Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements of
          the Human Resources Fund for 1998-99 [RP 55-2000].


     (8)     The following paper is referred to the Joint Standing
          Committee on Defence:


          The letter from the President of the Republic, dated 28 March
          2000, informing Parliament, in terms of section 201(2) of the
          Constitution, 1996, of the employment of the South African
          National Defence Force in terms of section 201(2)(c) of the
          Constitution, 1996.

TABLINGS:

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces:

Papers:

1. The Speaker and the Chairperson:

 (1)    Reports of the Auditor-General on the -


     (a)     Financial Statements of Vote 36 - Water Affairs and
          Forestry and related accounts for 1998-99 [RP 160-99];


     (b)     Financial Statements of Vote 21 - Justice for 1998-99.


 (2)    A summary of issues for possible consideration in any review of
     the current framework setting out the powers and privileges of
     Parliament prepared by Professor N R L Haysom.


     Memorandum for Committee on Powers and Privileges of Parliament


     Introduction


     1. Professor Haysom was asked to summarise some of the issues for
          possible consideration in any review of the current framework
          setting out the powers and privileges of Parliament.


     2. The report of the consultants who were commissioned to
          investigate the above matters strongly recommends that a new
          statute be enacted to deal with the powers and privileges of
          Parliament. In any event the Constitution of the Republic of
          South Africa Act, 1996, (the Constitution) contemplates such a
          stature (see Section 58(2)).


          The reasons offered by the consultants are persuasive and
          include the following:
          (1) The act is a malaise of amendments dating back more than
              three decades. The treatment of the subject is
              unsystematic and dated.


          (2) The framework for dealing with powers and privileges needs
              to be reviewed against the requirements of the new
              Constitution and an interrogation of the practices
              consonant with a new parliamentary culture and tradition.


     Privileges


     3. The question of privileges is currently dealt with by the
          Constitution (see 58(1) and (2)), the Powers and Privileges of
          Parliament Act, 1963, (the Act) and, indirectly, the rules of
          Parliament. It is necessary at the outset to determine what
          the concept 'privileges' embraces, or should embrace. As the
          consultants point out, the international trend is to move away
          from the elastic concept of 'privileges' and to use the term
          'immunities'. The Committee may wish to follow this trend for
          the same reasons, In either event it may help to set out the
          purposes for which the immunities are to be created.


     4. The historical development of both the powers and the
          privileges of Parliament indicates that they derive from the
          need to protect and promote the functioning of the
          legislature, originally in the face of threats or persecution
          of legislators by the monarch or the executive, and
          subsequently from interference from other sources such as the
          judiciary and civil society, which would undermine the
          functioning of the legislature. The rationale behind
          conferring special privileges and powers on the legislature
          can best be understood in the light of the doctrine of the
          separation of powers: that is that Parliament should regulate
          its affairs independantly of the other arms of government.
          Immunities or privileges generally fall within the following
          three categories.


     5. Freedom of Speech Immunity


          While the Freedom of speech Immunity, contained for example in
          section 58(1) of the Constitution, may have had its origins in
          the desire to protect legislators from the monarch, it now has
          a much broader rationale - the promotion of open debate and
          the immunity offered is expected to prevent what the courts
          elsewhere have called the 'chilling' effect of defamation law.
          It is the pre-eminent immunity but it is not absolute and may
          be subject to manner and form requirements agreed by
          Parliament. The privilege is also contained in the Act, but
          this is probably unnecessary. The present act also explicitly
          extends the immunity offered to members so as to include
          petitions and resolutions brought by a member. This is
          nonetheless an aspect of the freedom of speech privilege (see
          Section 8 of the Act).


     6. 'Immunities' relating to civic obligations or criminal
          proceedings.


          Immunities, taking various forms, have arisen to protect
          legislators from certain criminal or civil proceedings. Again,
          their origins lay in the need to protect legislators from
          political persecuton, and later from harassment which
          indirectly might prevent a legislator from performing his
          duties. Such immunities might once have taken the form of an
          absolute immunity from judicial process, but this has given
          way to procedural protections which require, for example, in
          certain countries that criminal proceedings against
          legislators be brought only in higher courts, or that such
          proceedings be subject to certain delays. The trend is to move
          away from granting any immunity from civil or criminal
          liability, even of a temporary nature, to members of the
          Executive or of the Legislature, Our Constitution reflects
          this trend. The remnants of this form granting any immmunity
          are still in existence in the Act.(see Section 7 of the Act)


     7. The privileges of Parliament.


          The third of privileges are those that attach to Parliament
          itself. These exist for the purpose of enhancing Parliament's
          status, dignity and proper functioning. As the consultants
          point out it is not clear which of the inherited common-law
          privileges survive and the continued existence of some common
          law offences may be questionable. Furthermore it may be that
          there is an overlap between the privileges of Parliament, and
          the powers of Parliament in this regard. The following issues
          serve to illustrate the more general proposition that
          Parliament is entitled to have its status protected.


          (1) Should Parliament be protected from actions and statements
              that undermine it as an institution (not mere criticism
              of its members or its functioning). It may be that the
              answer lies within the ambit of security legislation.
              However a very recent incident in Nigeria is relevant. A
              senator, allegedly called for the restoration of military
              rule, in turn prompting public pressure on Parliament to
              protect itself against the sentiments expressed by the
              senator, and raising the question of Parliament's duty to
              assert this privilege.


          (2) Should Parliament be able to assert its financial
              requirements. Section 31 of the Act suggests it should be
              able to do so. In Kenya, this month, members of
              Parliament have called for legislation to limit the power
              of the President's office to unilaterally set the budget
              for Parliament. Once again this may be a question which
              is broader than the question of Parliamentary privilege.


          (3) There may be other 'privileges' a Parliament can claim so
              as to protect its status and functioning. For example, in
              Switzerland the police may not enter the precincts of
              Parliament. The current Act allows, or allowed,
              Parliament to bar a court from inquiring or pronouncing
              upon a matter involving parliamentary privilege. This
              provision has been found to be unconstitutional in a
              recent high court decision.


     8. The question arises whether there are any other types of
          privilege which require to be afforded to Parliament or its
          members? The entitlement to Parliamentary privileges is always
          founded on the need for the effective performance of the
          legislative function.


     9. Powers of Parliament


          Parliament's power to make its own rules and orders and to
          regulate its business derives from section 57 of the
          Constitution. This power includes the power to enforce its
          rules and punish infraction of them.


     10.     Since the enactment of the 1993 Constitution, Parliament
          has no powers other than those conferred upon it by the
          Constitution and law. The question arises as to how Parliament
          should enforce its rules?


     11.     Parliament has wide powers to ensure that it functions in
          a proper and orderly manner. In this regard the power of the
          Speaker to ensure orderly debate, enforce compliance with her
          rulings and orders, and to use force to remove the disorderly,
          are constitutionally wide. The Act, in addition, confers all
          the powers of a court of law on Parliament to punish those
          guilty of contempt, including the imposition of prison
          sentences (see Section 10). Parliaments' powers to punish, as
          opposed to enforcing orderly debate, are more circumscribed
          under the Constitution.


     12.     The first question arises as to whether Parliament, or the
          Speaker, should have the power to punish infractions of the
          rules by non-members (ie. members of the public). The
          Committee must consider what powers it needs to give the
          speaker or Parliament in this regard. In regard to penalising
          contempt or unruly behaviour, consideration could be given to
          drawing a distinction between members and non-members,
          specifying the criminal offences which need to be created and
          providing for the referral of breaches of these to the public
          prosecution service.
     13.     With regard to members of Parliament a number of issues
          require to be dealt with.


          13.1     The right of freedom of speech is subject to the
                   rules and orders of Parliament. Those rules and
                   orders might prescribe the manner, the time the
                   venue, the language, in which freedom of speech can
                   be exercised. Content based prescriptions on freedom
                   of speech will need to be carefully evaluated, having
                   regard to recent judicial pronouncements. (see
                   Speaker v Patricia De Lille 1999 (11) BCLR 1339 SCA)


          13.2     Parliament is required to establish the conditions
                   and circumstances in which absence from the assembly
                   can lead to loss of membership (see Section 47(3) of
                   the Constitution).


          13.3     Parliament may wish to consider the ways and means by
                   which its codes of conduct and its disclosure
                   requirements regarding benefits and gifts and similar
                   matters can be enforced. Note that the current Act
                   makes voting upon any matter in which a member has a
                   pecuniary interest as a criminal offence under the
                   Act (see Section 11 of the Act).


          13.4     Parliament may have to consider codifying behaviour
                   which is 'unparliamentary'. This may not require an
                   exhaustive list, but it may require at least
                   establishing guidelines. This may be necessary both
                   for the purposes of ensuring good order as well as
                   penalising infractions. (see the comments of Mahomed
                   CJ in Speaker v Patricia De Lille)


          13.5     Parliament may need to draw a clear distinction
                   between those Acts it will deal with under its own
                   disciplinary process and those that are to be
                   referred to criminal or civil courts - even in
                   respect of members. Regard should be had to the grey
                   areas such as filing incorrect expense claims or
                   removing property from Parliament. The current Act
                   allows parliament, by way of resolution to exercise a
                   choice. (see Section 33 of the Act)


          13.6     It is doubtful whether Parliament has the right to
                   permanently expel a member other than in the
                   circumstances set out in Section 47(3) of the
                   Constitution. It may be necessary however to consider
                   the appropriateness and necessity of other
                   punishments where a clear breach of rules, or a
                   repeated violation of the rules may justify it. Such
                   punishments may include censure, and fines. The power
                   to imprison in the Parliamentary dungeons, if it has
                   survived the 20th Century, is unlikely to meet the
                   test of Constitutional compliance. Suspension may be
                   Constitutional, but needs careful consideration, and
                   certainly there would be limitations. Both in respect
                   of the duration and in respect of the nature of the
                   conduct being punished.


     14.     The Committee must consider the establishment of an
          appropriate procedure and structure to adjudicate on
          misconduct or disciplinary matters. Such matters may range
          from very minor technical infringements to serious cases. In
          either event the requirements of a fair and impartial process
          must be met. An ad hoc approach may not be appropriate.


     15.     Finally, the Committee must consider what matters require
          to be dealt with, or are more appropriately contained in
          statute and what is required to be dealt with in the rules of
          Parliament. The matters referred to in 47(3) and 58(1) must be
          dealt with in the rules. Other privileges must be prescribed
          by national legislation.


 Referred to the Joint Subcommittee on Powers and Privileges.

1. The Minister for the Public Service and Administration:

 Report and Financial Statement of the South African Management
 Development Institute for 1998-99, including the Report of the Auditor-
 General on Vote 30 - South African Management Development Institute.