THURSDAY, 8 JUNE 2000
                                ____

                PROCEEDINGS OF THE NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
                                ____

The House met at 14:02.

The Deputy Chairperson took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayers or meditation.

ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS - see col 000.

                          NOTICES OF MOTION

Ms O R KASIENYANE: Chairperson, I give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the ANC:

That the House -

(1) notes statements by the Danish Prime Minister, the hon Poul Nyrup Rasmussen, that Denmark is ready, in principle, to offer economic aid to help to end the violence in Zimbabwe;

(2) believes that this statement reflects growing international support for President Mbeki’s approach to the Zimbabwean crisis;

(3) welcomes this statement and awaits translation of this commitment into action; and

(4) calls on the DP and the New NP to come to terms with the realities of the land question in Zimbabwe.

[Applause.]

Mr D H M GIBSON: Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the DP:

That the House -

(1) notes with dismay the ANC’s unseemly haste in attempting to rush through the proposed Firearms Control Bill before public hearings have been concluded;

(2) recognises that the public has a right to give its views on such an important piece of legislation and that opposition political parties have a right to hear such views before deciding on the Bill; and

(3) calls on the Minister of Safety and Security to abandon his efforts to steamroller the legislation through Parliament before proper consideration has been given to both the legislation and its consequences for the fight against crime.

Mrs L R MBUYAZI: Chairperson, I give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move:

That the House -

(1) notes that the IFP wishes to take this opportunity to welcome the announcement of the Government’s policy aimed at achieving sustainable coastal development in South Africa;

(2) further notes that the IFP is particularly pleased that coastal dwellers, previously marginalised and denied access to the coast and its resources, will henceforth constitute coastal settlements, which will be managed to promote the socioeconomic benefit deriving from the coastal setting without upsetting the diversity, health and productivity of the coastal ecosystem they inhabit; and

(3) endorses the above principle and looks forward to a better life for all who live along our beautiful coast through the sustainable use of the resources found there.

Mr M S GININDA: Chairperson, I give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the ANC:

That the House -

(1) notes the breakthrough made by former President Nelson Mandela and President Pierre Buyoyo of Burundi in respect of the peace process in Burundi;

(2) further notes that the agreements reached on the release of the Hutus and the integration of Hutus into the armed forces of that country represent a significant breakthrough in paving the way for a peaceful resolution of the conflict in Burundi;

(3) commends both leaders for arriving at this most important decision; and

(4) praises the efforts by our former President to build a better Africa and a better world.

Halala Madiba! [Applause.]

Mnr J J DOWRY: Mnr die Voorsitter, ek gee hiermee kennis dat ek op die volgende sittingsdag namens die Nuwe NP sal voorstel:

Dat die Huis -

(1) kennis neem van -

   (a)  die Nuwe NP se volgehoue poging om veelparty-demokrasie in Suid-
       Afrika deur middel van samewerking en alliansie-vorming te
       bevorder; en

   (b)  die Nuwe NP se verbintenis tot sterk opposisie, gegrond op
       beginsels, saam met partye van integriteit;

(2) dit betreur dat sommige opposisiepartye eerder die opposisie aanval en probeer verswak as om die ANC, die SAKP en Cosatu aan te durf; en

(3) kennis neem dat -

   (a)  die Nuwe NP kiesers wil verseker dat hulle mense met
       integriteite en 'n bewese diensrekord in hul gemeenskap as
       kandidate in die verkiesing sal benoem; en

   (b)  die Nuwe NP sal voortgaan om in die Wes-Kaap en in die metro- en
       plaaslike regerings wat hy deur goeie regering beheer,
       gehaltediens aan inwoners te lewer ten einde hul lewenskwaliteit
       te verbeter.

[Tussenwerpsels.] [Applous.] (Translation of Afrikaans notice of motion follows.)

[Mr J J DOWRY: Mr Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day I shall move on behalf of the New NP:

That the House -

(1) notes -

   (a)  the ongoing attempt by the New NP to promote multiparty
       democracy in South Africa by way of co-operation and the
       formation of alliances; and

   (b)  the commitment of the New NP to strong opposition, based on
       principles, in conjunction with parties of integrity;

(2) deplores the fact that some opposition parties would rather attack and try to weaken the opposition than to take on the ANC, the SACP and Cosatu; and

(3) notes that -

   (a)  the New NP wishes to assure voters that they will nominate as
       candidates in the election people of integrity with a proven
       track record in their community; and

   (b)  in the Western Cape and in the metro and local governments under
       its control the New NP will continue, through good governance,
       to render a quality service to residents in order to improve
       their quality of life.

[Interjections.] [Applause.]]

Mr M N RAMODIKE: Chairperson, I give notice that at the next sitting of the House I shall move on behalf of the UDM:

That the House -

(1) notes with dismay and trepidation that six ANC councillors of the Greater Haenertsburg transitional council in the Northern Province have sold a portion of state land which was under the jurisdiction of Kgoshigadi B M Maake of the Bakqaqa tribe;

(2) is alarmed that these councillors have shared the money accruing from the sale of the land among themselves;

(3) is appalled that the tribe and Kgoshigadi Maake and tribal councillors were never consulted when this illegal transaction took place;

(4) finds it of particular concern and perturbing that these councillors are allowed to continue to hold public office in spite of these revelations and condemns the MEC for local government in the Northern Province for condoning these illegal actions; and

(5) calls on the Minister for Provincial and Local Government to intervene and bring these councillors to book, and further to ask the police and/or the Heath Investigating Unit to conduct an in-depth investigation into this matter.

[Interjections.] [Time expired.]

Ms S D MOTUBATSE: Chairperson, I give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the ANC:

That the House -

(1) notes the conviction and sentencing to life imprisonment of the three men who raped two tourists near Storms River in April;

(2) recognises that this House has passed legislation imposing minimum sentences for crimes of this nature;

(3) believes that the life sentences imposed on the three perpetrators are a reflection of the seriousness with which this House and our Government regard crimes of violence, particularly those against women; and

(4) commends the Government for the steps it is taking to rid our country of violence, crime and lawlessness.

[Applause.]

Mrs R M SOUTHGATE: Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move:

That the House -

(1) notes that the Beijing +5 conference in New York is unable to agree on resolutions that endorse certain rights, including homosexuality and abortion, among others;

(2) expresses concern that the South African delegation, including the Deputy Speaker and the Minister for the Public Service and Administration, are in support of these rights; and

(3) notes that these rights do not advance, but are harmful to, women’s rights.

Gen C L VILJOEN: Chairperson, I give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the FF:

That the House -

(1) notes -

   (a)  with sadness the passing away of a former Chief of the SA Air
       Force, Lt Gen Bob Rogers; and

   (b)  that the late Gen Rogers had a distinguished career as a young
       air force pilot and squadron commander in the Second World War
       and performed operational service in the Korean War;

(2) acknowledges the contribution of the late Gen Rogers in developing and commanding the SA Air Force to its current state of excellence that was again demonstrated in the flood relief operations in Mozambique earlier this year; and

(3) resolves to honour the memory of an outstanding airman who dedicated his life to serving our country.

Miss T E LISHIVHA: Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the ANC:

That the House -

(1) notes the arrest of a Durban clothing factory proprietor yesterday for failing to register with the bargaining council in terms of the Labour Relations Act; (2) recognises that this is an important milestone in the protection of the rights of workers in terms of legislation passed by this House;

(3) believes that -

   (a)  the protection of the rights of workers is a fundamental feature
       of our process of democratic transformation; and

   (b)  the rights of workers should not be sacrificed on the altar of
       quick profits; and

(4) calls on all employers to honour the spirit and letter of the Labour Relations Act or risk prosecution.

[Applause.]

Adv H C SCHMIDT: Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the DP:

That the House - (1) notes the decision by the Constitutional Court to declare unconstitutional sections of the Aliens Control Act which make it difficult for foreign spouses of South Africans to live in South Africa with their partners;

(2) affirms its commitment to the right of couples to live together; and

(3) calls on the Minister of Home Affairs to take urgent action to -

   (a)  give effect to the rights of these people; and

   (b)  submit amending legislation to Parliament to bring the Aliens
       Control Act into line with the Constitution.

[Applause.]

Chief M W HLENGWA: Chairperson, I give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I will move on behalf of the IFP:

That the House -

(1) notes that many people remain in gaol in South Africa for committing criminal acts which they mistakenly believed were in the interests of the liberation struggle;

(2) recognises that whilst such criminal acts cannot be condoned, they arose from a desire to participate in a just cause;

(3) further recognises the suffering of many of the families of these prisoners as a result of the principal breadwinner of the family being in prison; and

(4) calls on Government to provide assistance to the families of these prisoners to alleviate their plight through training programmes and other such initiatives, which would help them to find employment and earn a living for themselves.

Ms E GANDHI: Chairperson, I give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the ANC: That the House -

(1) notes that -

   (a)  the hon Aung San Suu Kyi, the leader of the National League for
       Democracy, remains incarcerated by the Burmese military;

   (b)  the military authorities in Rangoon stand accused of having
       denied the NLD access to state power after its overwhelming
       electoral victory in the 1990 election; and

   (c)  the hon Aung San Suu Kyi is a Nobel Peace laureate and has
       appealed to the international community, as she fears the
       possibility of life imprisonment or the death sentence;

(2) believes that the continued detention of the hon Aung San Suu Kyi is a reflection of the determination of the military to violate the human rights of the Burmese people …

[Time expired.] [Applause.] Mr R S SCHOEMAN: Chair, I give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I will move on behalf of the New NP:

That the House, further to a motion proposed by the New NP on 9 May 2000, condemning the kidnapping of 21 hostages being held in the Philippines, including two South Africans, viz Monique and Callie Strydom, appeals to President Thabo Mbeki or, in his absence, Deputy President Jacob Zuma, to -

(1) speak personally to the President of the Philippines to impress on him the concern of all South Africans and to urge him to ensure that his government steps up efforts to make progress;

(2) approach all other presidents who have citizens amongst the hostages, requesting them to do the same; and

(3) calls on all South Africans to pray for and give moral support to the families of the hostages.

Mr S ABRAM: Chair, I give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the UDM:

That the House -

(1) notes -

   (a)  the human rights violations in Burundi;

   (b)  the incarceration of Burundians, including innocent women and
       children, in concentration-style camps; and

   (c)  the involvement of former President Nelson Mandela of South
       Africa in a mediatory role;

(2) congratulates and salutes our former President on brokering the possible release of the incarcerated persons by 31 July;

(3) trusts that the Burundi government will not renege on its commitment; and

(4) calls upon the international community to support our former President’s efforts and to assist in monitoring compliance.

[Applause.]

     ADMISSION OF MRS EPAINNETTE MBEKI TO GROOTE SCHUUR HOSPITAL

                         (Draft Resolution)

Mr G Q M DOIDGE: Chairperson, on behalf of the National Assembly, I move without notice:

That the House -

(1) notes that the mother of President Thabo Mbeki, Mrs Epainnette Mbeki, has been admitted to Groote Schuur Hospital;

(2) assures Mrs Mbeki that the thoughts of the nation are with her as she undergoes treatment and care; and

(3) wishes her a speedy recovery and recuperation and keeps her in its prayers.

Agreed to. APPROPRIATION BILL

Debate on Vote No 22 - Provincial and Local Government:

The MINISTER FOR PROVINCIAL AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT: Chairperson … [Interjections.]

Mr D H M GIBSON: Welcome back, Sydney! All is forgiven.

The MINISTER: I know! [Laughter.] Chairperson, hon members, the issue of governance continues to engage the minds of practitioners and scholars all over the world. The first five years of democratic governance in our country has given us a basis to test the viability of theories, systems and structures which are germane to this issue. There is no terminus where, as practitioners, we can sit back and proclaim that our democracy is finally developed to perfection. In human affairs, there are always new issues to confront, new methods to apply and new insights to discover.

We are, yet again, at an exciting moment in the history of our country. The continuing mutation of our structures of governance and some of the initiatives which Government is undertaking may bring about a profound change of course in the life of our nation. Some of the elements which define this exciting moment are the fact that a team of experts has just submitted to Cabinet an audit report based on a reality check of our intergovernmental structures, systems and processes.

The other element is the fact that the Department of Provincial and Local Government has released a discussion document on the role, place, powers and functions of the institution of traditional leadership. The department is also finalising a report on challenges facing the Khoisan community. The third element is the fact that the process of redesigning municipal boundaries and transforming local governments is nearing completion.

Fourthly, the road to local government elections is now open. The necessary enabling legislation is either in place or nearing completion. We are confident that these elections will be held within the constitutionally projected timeframes. Fifthly, the technical committee which was appointed to oversee the process of finalising the Draft Bill on the Promotion and Protection of the Rights of Cultural, Religious and Linguistic Communities has completed its mandate and submitted its report on 5 June. I would like to express our deep gratitude for a job well done by the committee under the able chairpersonship of Prof Cynthia Marivate. [Applause.]

In all these undertakings, we are driven by the conviction that the pathway to sustainable stability and prosperity is firmly anchored on the foundation we have built since 1994. The year 1999 saw an increase in the tempo of local government transformation. Consequently, we are now coming to the end of the negotiated phase of local government transition. Our post- election vision of local democracy is that of a system of municipal governance, which will have the following features: Firstly, we shall have six metropolitan cities. These cities must be consolidated into a citadel of hope, with a distinct role to play on the world stage.

Given our country’s painful reality of the physical duality of extreme poverty and extreme wealth, there are specific problems in the metropolitan areas which must be understood as constituting challenges of governance. These are problems such as the intolerable levels of crime, the scourge of contagious diseases, including the HIV/Aids pandemic, overcrowding and unemployment. Those whom the electorate will entrust with the task of governing these metropolitan areas, must see these cities as sites of innovation. It goes without saying that our success in these metropolitan areas will immensely enhance the productive base of our country.

The second feature will find expression in the 46 district municipalities. These will function as strategic catalysts for integrated development throughout the nonmetropolitan parts of our country. The challenge for Government, the private sector and civil society in its various dimensions shall be to ensure that our developmental goals for these areas are attainable and sustainable. Meeting this challenge will mean that no place, not even a village whose name is not known to a single parliamentarian, will exist beyond the frontiers of our developmental endeavours.

The third feature is represented by local municipalities. There shall be 232 of these. They constitute the bedrock upon which governance outside the metropolitan areas will be built. The goal of creating financially viable, economically sustainable and socially integrated municipal government in South Africa will not materialise, unless we invest in a programme of capacitating these municipal entities.

The Municipal Demarcation Board has played a major part in the restructuring programme, and it will continue to fine-tune the municipal boundaries. Now that the building blocks of the new system are in place, the Department of Provincial and Local Government will increasingly move to the forefront to lead the charge in ensuring that we enhance and deploy the requisite financial and administrative capacity.

An important part of this process is to bring into the main stream of governance for development, elements of what is good from our past. Finding a meaningful role for the institution of traditional leadership in our democratic dispensation is an indispensable element for stabilising governance in the rural areas.

We are not raising this issue because we just want to look into our past with warm nostalgia. Rather, we are raising it because, looking into the future, we see a definite role for traditional leaders in helping solve problems of poverty and landlessness. Working together with elected public representatives, traditional leaders can help create conditions for local economic development.

Decades of neglect for rural areas have left these areas without much- needed infrastructure, resources and management capacity to generate and sustain development. Since its inception, the Consolidated Municipal Infrastructure Programme has helped, not only to redress this imbalance, but also to reduce the backlogs generally. Through this programme the department has, with the assistance of provincial and local government, completed over 1 700 projects, benefiting well over 12 million people. [Applause.]

Originally, the programme was skewed and biased in favour of urban areas. The change in this bias has resulted in a situation where today 43% of programmes dedicated to this fund are utilised in the rural areas. The programme also had the positive impact of enhancing the quality of service delivery. To date, out of a total of R2,3 billion that has been made available to subsidise the delivery of services, an amount of R2,O5 billion has already been committed to actual projects. About 318 projects are currently under construction and 759 projects have already been completed. We must also ensure that this new infrastructure is secured against natural disasters such as Cyclones Eline and Gloria.

Another mechanism which we created in order to implement Government’s overall poverty alleviation programme is the Local Economic Development Fund. Through this, we want local communities to exercise a significant measure of control over their own economic life. They have to do so by designing and managing projects which have a potential to contribute meaningfully towards growth. [Applause.]

The previously neglected areas are increasingly becoming the target of our development focus, as a significant number of our local economic development projects are located in the rural areas, as well as on the peripheries of affluent cities and towns. These activities are having the effect of tilting the balance further to the advantage of the poor. This will further add to the effort of creating sustainable communities, for it is the absence of local businesses that provide employment to local people which denies rural councils the fiscal base necessary for the maintenance of local infrastructure and social services. Ours are more than just delivery programmes. They also have the objective of strengthening the local government sphere. In the drive to deliver municipal infrastructure and implement LED projects, certain management and technical deficiencies have come into conspicuous view. In addition, there are policy and institutional weaknesses which have been detected, and are being attended to.

At present, the most optimistic figure suggests that 50% of municipalities in the country have integrated development plans of varying qualities. The President’s Co-ordinating Council, which brings together the President, the Ministry for Provincial and Local Government and the premiers, will facilitate the preliminary work of putting together the Integrated Development Plans on behalf of Categories A and C municipalities that are to emerge after the forthcoming local government elections. In this we shall work together with the SA Local Government Association. The Ministry and the department will also be looking at ways of ensuring minimum requisite capacity for municipalities, so that these municipal entities are placed in a position that will make it possible for them to fulfil their constitutional mandate.

As I said earlier, we have received a report from the committee which is overseeing the work of drafting the Bill on the promotion and protection of the rights of cultural, religious and linguistic communities. I will soon be seeking Cabinet approval for the principles contained in the draft Bill, as well as making recommendations on the handling of the Volkstaat Council report. I intend to table this Bill in Parliament in July. I hope that the outcome of this process will help us to approach future challenges with mutual caring and tolerance for diversity, for these are essential foundations of the healthy societies we hope to create.

The rising importance of paying attention to the task of improving the quality of our governance system cannot be overemphasised. As parliamentarians, members are called upon to contribute their insights into the process. The Department of Provincial and Local Government has had to restructure itself in order to be better prepared to respond to the needs of the times. The director-general, Mr Zam Titus, and all members of staff deserve my expression of gratitude for co-operating with the Ministry in this regard. [Applause.] I welcome to the cause the chairperson of the portfolio committee, Mr Yunus Carrim, and all the other members of the committee. I thank them for their understanding and for always being available to act in pursuit of our shared agenda. I look forward to seeing all hon members at the cocktail party this evening. [Applause.]

Mr Y I CARRIM: Mr Chairperson, comrades and friends, six years ago the ANC came to power on the basis of the RDP. Not long after that all the parties in this House endorsed the RDP. Of course, not all of us gave the same meaning to the RDP, but there was one key aspect on which we all agreed: the need for integrated and co-ordinated government. It was in good part this brought concensus that helped us to negotiate the new Constitution and break out of the mould of the unitary state versus federal state debate. Instead, we forged a highly innovative and original system of co-operative governance.

Essentially we have one system of governance in this country, with three interrelated and interdependent, if distinct, spheres of government - not levels of government, but spheres. And the more each sphere co-operates with the other two, the stronger, in fact, it becomes. At the heart of this system is the notion of co-operation, not just across the spheres, not just within the spheres, but also between the spheres and civil society, hence we speak not of government, but of governance.

So much for the theory: what about the practice? Inevitably, in a new emerging democracy, there would be a gap between theory and practice, but our gap is perhaps more than it should be. It is certainly more than we can afford it to be. We are a country with limited resources and huge responsibilities. Planning, co-ordination, and integration between the spheres of government and civil society is, in our case, even more crucial. In short, as much as we have come a long way since 1994, we have not come far enough, and so it is that we welcome the new approach set up by the Minister and the Department of Provincial and Local Government.

The department defines its vision as follows:

To become the leading department in promoting co-operative governance and supporting an effective system of provincial and local government for accelerated service delivery.

Its key priority is - … building an integrated, performance orientated, people centred and accountable system of government, free of corruption and committed to serving the people.

These are nice words, a good approach and laudable goals, but what about the practice? This is where the portfolio committee comes in. Our task should be to more concertedly monitor the department and what is happening in the country as a whole. We need to more effectively play our oversight role. The core policies and legislation establishing the new democracy have been largely adopted over the past six years. The key considerations now are the proper implementation of the policies and legislation, and improvements in service delivery and development.

However, it is not as if we can just fold our arms and monitor. Effective monitoring is not possible without active engagement. As MPs, we need to be actively involved in our constituencies and society as a whole. We need to persistently foster greater co-operation between the spheres of government and between Government and civil society. But for the system of co- operative governance to work properly, vision, strategy, programme and activity are not all: it is also about money. It is not just about money, but also about money, which is why we have this Vote debate for that matter. It is about how and what we share among the spheres of government, and as a portfolio committee we have difficulties about this. Our particular concern, especially with the major transformation of local government underway, is with local government finances.

About R1,867 billion is allocated to local government as its equitable share of the national revenue. This may present no more than 1% of the national fiscus. This amount is based in good part on the notion that local government raises about 95% of its revenue, but this is 95% of what it spends, not what it needs. Moreover, this is an aggregate figure and does not take into account the disparities in capacities of municipalities to raise revenue. The portfolio committee is, certainly, very interested to see what the Financial and Fiscal Commission comes up with in respect of applying a costed-norms approach to local government.

Ours, we must stress, is not an empty, crude call for more money for local government. The committee is excruciatingly aware that most municipalities are not raising the full revenue they should, have financial management weaknesses and are not engaging in local economic development service partnerships, municipal service strategies and other strategies to ensure that they are more economically and financially viable.

The committee also understands well that flinging more money at local government is not the answer and may even exacerbate the problems. But we believe there is room for national and provincial governments to contribute more in helping municipalities to develop the strategies for raising more revenue, building their local economies and improving their financial management capacity.

The committee welcomes the department’s local economic development, municipal service partnerships and other work and the allocation of grants to municipalities experiencing financial difficulties to restructure their financial management capacity. In this regard, we fully support the Local Government Support Grant of R150 million, the Restructuring Grant of R300 million and the Financial Management Grant of R50 million.

However, while all this is welcome, is it enough? Also, should this not be complemented by national Government allocating more funds to local government? Of course, the committee is acutely aware of the financial and fiscal constraints of national Government, but clearly, the majority in the committee feel that if local government is going to effectively fulfil the powers and functions allocated to it and the increasing responsibilities heaped on it, and if it is to be the major site of service delivery and development it is identified to be, it has to be allocated more funding.

Together with other major stakeholders, the portfolio committee is also concerned that money has not yet been allocated for the once off costs of the transition to the new local government system. We understand that costing could not be done until the Municipal Demarcation Board had finalised the municipal boundaries and had a clear sense of the nature and number of municpalities to be established. Now that this has happened, we are pleased to learn that the Departments of Provincial and Local Government and of Finance, the Demarcation Board and other stakeholders are working on the cost of the transition, and are to approach the Cabinet shortly for funding. We would urge that this be attended to expeditiously.

Of course, we understand that any funding for the transitional costs will not absolve municipalities from their responsibility to fully raise the revenue due to them from their own sources. Let me assure hon members that this does mean drastically increasing rates. The rates scaremongering will be dealt with by my comrade, Isaiah Ntshangase, shortly. But we would like to say, quite simply, that section 229 of the Constitution requires legislation on property rates. Before that, the department and Ministry will also have a process of exhaustive consultation with all stakeholders concerned.

Other key issues related to the budget, not least the provincial system, which the portfolio committee will more keenly giving attention to following the local government elections later this year, will be dealt with by other comrades from the ANC, and presumably the other parties. For now, I must end with warmest thanks to the Minister, Director-General Zam Titus, Parliamentary Liaison Officer Freddie Pelusa, Acting Deputy Director- General Jackie Mantswe, others who are here and the full staff of the department and the Ministry for their co-operation.

My heartfelt thanks also go to all members of the portfolio committee, not least those from the opposition parties, for their co-operation, though I might add that the Minister is too shy to say this, but, in fact, while he has invited all of us to the cocktail party tonight - and I think he means that the budget only allows for portfolio committee members - I want to stress that the amount of drinks and food we get this evening, and the length of the party, I am told by him, depends on how well the opposition parties behave in today’s Vote debate. [Laughter.] So, I urge members not to spoil our fun and be highly co-operative.

Finally, on a less facetious note - before the DP says I am stifling their criticisms of the governing party - I want to say that it is an honour to serve in this committee and a pleasure too. I thank all for their co- operation. [Applause.]

Mr J SELFE: Mr Chairperson, I am afraid the speech of the hon the chairperson of the committee implies that the cocktail party this evening is going to be very short.

The process of restructuring local government has probably provoked more debate, controversy, policy and activity than any other aspect of the transformation of our society. We have produce a Green and a White Paper. We have debated and passed the demarcation Act and the structures Act. We are currently processing the systems and the electoral Bills. The property rating Bill and the municipal financial management Bill are still in the pipeline.

Since 1994, local government has undergone one major restructuring process and is about to undergo another. This has been a trying time for many councillors and officials. A great deal of unproductive money has been spent simply on restructuring, and still more will have to be spent. I would venture to suggest that all of us in this House, across party lines, are probably agreed on the end goals for local government. We want it to be efficient, effective and responsive. But where we differ is how to achieve this and, critically, how to fund it.

The DP rejects the one-size-fits-all approach of the ANC to municipal restructuring for the very simple reason that we are a vast country with vastly varying capacities, stages of development, economic bases and infrastructure. If local government is to be efficient, effective and responsive, it must also be viable. It is estimated that one in every six municipalities is currently technically bankrupt, and only one in four can raise credit at a commercial bank. Many municipalities are owed vast amounts of money, and in turn owe more to banks and public utilities.

The truth is that most municipalities are spending more than they get in revenue and bad debts are the order of the day. Reserve funds are being plundered simply to balance the books. In some cases, this situation arises, because municipalities are spending in a genuine attempt to redress the glaring inequalities of the past. But much more often, it is because municipalities have spent recklessly, and lacked the will or the means to collect the money owed to them. It is because they have unrealistic ideas about what they can deliver, and other spheres of government have done functions for them without supplying them the funds to perform them. In some cases, it is because of the lack of skills and capacity or inability and corruption.

It is against this background that there is so much concern about the proposed property rating Bill. Property owners look at the powerless state of municipal finances and draw the conclusion that their property rates will be increased dramatically to balance the books. The result has been a predictable panic-flood of e-mails and a spate of people trying to sell their properties. Whether this concern is justified or not, must await the final version of the Bill.

However, the fault for this unease lies firmly at the door of the Minister and his department. It is another case of formulating legislation in secret. On a matter of this nature and sensitivity, one would have expected the Minister to have consulted fully and widely. Yet this Bill is in at least its tenth draft without serious public consultation. Not only has public consultation been lacking, it appears that no consultation has yet taken place between the drafters of this Bill and the Katz Commission. I want to ask very specifically: Has such consultation taken place and if not, when is it expected that such consultation will occur?

This is a very serious matter, and the Minister must use the opportunity to reassure the public that rates will not be set at the levels people believe. What we need in this country is a system of fair rates. We need to devise a system of rates that will protect the rights of those that have property and extend property rights to those who currently do not have it. This must be our aim, and what we in the DP will be fighting for. [Interjections.] Mfu K M ZONDI: Sihlalo, ngisukumela ukubamba iqhaza kule nkulumo-mpikiswano yeSabiwo-mali somNyango weziFundazwe noHulumeni baseKhaya, ngenxa yobumqoka nokujiya kwezindaba ezisezithebeni zawo okumele sizwakalise ilaka ngazo. Ngisukumela ukuba ngenze umsebenzi ongemnandi nokho, kepha thina be-IFP esibona ukuthi simelwe ukuwenza kulesi sikhathi ukuze leli zwe lakithi esilithanda sonke kangaka, likwazi ukugwema izingozi zokungqubuzana ezingase zibe nomphumela omubi, ngisho nalowo wokuchitheka kwegazi uma singaqaphele.

Ngiyazi ukuthi umphrofethi akaze angathandeka kubantu ngoba usuke exwayisa ngezinto abantu abangathandiyo ukwexwayiswa nokukhuzwa kuzo. Uma udaba lohulumeni basekhaya ezindaweni eziphethwe ngabaholi bomdabu lungezuphathwa kahle ngobunono futhi kubhekelwe nobucayi balo, ngithi kumhlonishwa uNgqongqoshe: Ngiyesaba ukuthi lungase lusisusele umlilo wequbula ongase ushise lonke izwe lakithi.

Sonke sifuna ukuba udaba lohulumeni basekhaya luye ngasesiphethweni futhi luphethwe kahle ukuze kwenzeke lokhu umhlonishwa uNgqongqoshe abekusho lapha. Uthe kufuneka manje singene esigabeni sokugcina sohulumeni basekhaya abahleleke kahle njengoba kulawula isakhiwo sezwe lakithi. Kepha siya siba nokwesaba ngokubona ukungacaci kahle kokuthi qhaza lini elizobanjwa ngabaholi bomdabu kulabo hulumeni. Sibona uHulumeni engaphumeli obala kwizimfuno zabaholi bomdabu.

Sibona uhlelo oluhlongozwayo lufuna ukubuyisela eceleni indlela yabomdabu yokuphatha, bese kuphoqelelwa uhlelo lwaseNtshonalanga. Ngithi kumhlonishwa uNgqongqoshe: Sibona izimfuno zabaholi bomdabu, nakho konke ukukhathazeka kwabantu abaphila ezindaweni zasemakhaya, kungabekeki kahle etafuleni ukuze kuxoxeke ngendlela ezokwenza ukuthi ekugcineni kube nomphumela omuhle wokufinyelela esiphethweni sokuba kube nokuhlangabezana ngokubambisana ngalezi zinto.

Kunokukhathazeka-ke okuqubukayo kokuthi nxa uHulumeni engasheshi aphumele obala ngezinto ezifana nalena akade ekhuluma ngayo lo mfowethu osuka lapha, maqondana nentela ethize emayelana nobunikazi bomhlaba nakho konke, kungaba nezinkinga. Umbuzo-ke uthi: Akuzukwenzeka yini lokhu kuhambe kuhambe kuze kufike ezindaweni zasemakhaya, njengoba izwe lakithi likhungethwe ubuphofu obungaka nje? Ngeke yini kufike ekutheni bese kuphoqelelwa ukuthi nabo abantu basemakhaya bakhokhiswe intela ngezindawo abahlezi kuzo na? Siyazi ukuthi emakhaya akufani nasemadolobheni lapho izindawo abantu abanazo bezikhokhela inkece ngoba kukhona imisebenzi ethile eyenziwa nguHulumeni ayisondeze ezindaweni zabo. Ngikhuluma ngemisebenzi enjengokubalethela amanzi nakho konke okunye. Lezo yizinto ezisayothatha isikhathi eside kabi ukuba zifike ezindaweni zakithi emakhaya.

Ngithi-ke, siyacela lapha kumhlonishwa uNgqongqoshe. Siyazi ukuthi unezindlebe uzosizwa. Sicela ukuthi lolu daba angaluvumeli ukuba luphatheke ngesandla esiyisinxele ngoba siyesaba thina. Uma ngilinganisa nje laphayana KwaZulu-Natali, lapho ngiqhamuka khona, lolu daba lwenza ukuthi imimoya ishise kakhulu. Indlela esibona ukuthi luphatheke ngayo yenza kungakhanyi ukuthi kuzoma kanjani.

Kukhona udaba olukhulu lapha oluvama ukungacaci kahle uma luphakanyiswa. Baye bangezwakali abaholi bendabuko bese kuphendula abakhulumela uHulumeni bathi awekho amandla amakhosi azoncipha nxa kungena lolu hlobo olusha lomasipala ezindaweni ezisemakhaya. Ngithi kumhlonishwa uNgqongqoshe: Siyamangala-ke, nxa sazi ukuthi omasipala banegunya lokuphatha indawo, ukuthi kungashiwo kanjani ukuthi lokho nje kukodwa akuyukudla emandleni amakhosi. Emakhaya, siyazi ukuthi inhlabathi ingaphansi kwesandla samakhosi. Siyazi ukuthi amakhosi, ebambisene nezinduna nemikhandlu yawo, aba nesandla ekwabiweni kwamasimu okulima, nasekubekweni kwabantu amanxiwa lapho bezokwakha khona, bahlale khona futhi babe nenhlalo enhle. Aba nesandla ezinqumweni eziningi ikakhulukazi eziphathelene nentuthuko ezokwenziwa endaweni ephethwe ngohlelo lomdabu. Aye abe nesandla nasezinqumweni ezininginingi lapho kuzokwakhiwa khona imitholampilo nezikole kanye nakho konke okunye.

Ngakho-ke, sibona sengathi akuphenduleki kahle uma kubekeka kanjena. Kuthatha bese kwenza sengathi kukhona umacashelana okudlalwa wona kwezombusazwe. Yiwona-ke lona obangela ngithi kumhlonishwa uNgqongqoshe angize lapha ngizoxwayisa ngokuthi siyacela kuye ukuba kube khona ukukhanya kulolu daba, kuphumeleke obala. Siyazi ukuthi sekuze kwakhona isinyathelo esisemqoka esisukunyelwe ngabaholi bomdabu, ikakhulukazi laphaya KwaZulu- Natali, ngokubona njalo ukujula kwalolu daba. Leso sinyathelo ngesokuthi bahambe baye ehhovisi likaMongameli ukuyocela ukuba alungenele lolu daba ngoba abaholi bomdabu bebona ukuthi makwenziwe noma yini manje ukugwema ingozi esiyibona iza.

Ngishilo-ke kumhlonishwa uNgqongqoshe ngathi ngikhuluma izinto ezingase zizwakale zizimbi, zibhimba. Kodwa thina sikholwa ngukuthi kuhle kuthi kusekuhle manje nje, kusahlekwa, futhi sisenethuba lokulungisa izinto, siziphakamise lezi zinto, sixwayise ngazo. Siyabona ukuthi kuyoba kuhle kuzwakale ukuthi sasho yase igwemeka ingozi, kunokuba kuthiwe: Nathulelani nangasho ingozi niyibona iza na?

Ngithi kumhlonishwa uNgqongqoshe sithemba ukuthi izincwadi, umhlonishwa uMongameli wezwe lethu azibhalele abaholi bomdabu eqinisekisa ukuthi ngeke kube khona ukufinyelela esiphethweni salolu daba kungaboniswananga nabo kuze kuvunyelwane, zinikeza ithemba nesiqiniseko sokuthi akuyobe sekwenzeka izinto ezithile eziyothi phecelezi bese zithatha lokho zikubeka eceleni. Uma kunjalo, siyabona ukuthi kuyodaleka enkulu ingozi nokungethembani bese kwenza ukuthi yonke inqubekela-phambili enhle kangaka esiyincomayo nomnyango womhlonishwa uNgqongqoshe ophezu kwayo, ibuyele emuva, ibonakale njengento engekho. Siyacela-ke kumhlonishwa uNgqongqoshe ukuthi lolu daba luphathwe ngesandla sobunono. (Translation of Zulu speech follows.)

[Rev K M ZONDI: Chairperson, I rise to take part in the budget debate of the Department of Provincial Affairs and Local Government. The issues on the table are serious, and I would like to offer my opinion on them. I rise to do an unpopular job, the job that we in the IFP think that we should do so that the country that we greatly cherish, will be saved from the dangers of conflict. If we are not careful, these dangers will produce bad results, including the shedding of blood.

I know that a prophet is not liked by people, because he always forewarns them of the things against which they do not want to be warned. I would like to warn the hon the Minister that if the issues pertaining to local governments in the areas of the amakhosi (chiefs) are not handled with care and their concerns are not taken seriously, they might start a fire that will engulf the whole of our country.

We all want these issues to be resolved conclusively. In order that we may be able to fulfil what the hon the Minister has just said here, these issues must be concluded in a satisfactory manner. The hon the Minister has said that we should now enter the last phase of local governments which are planned according to the structure of our country. However, we are increasingly afraid that we have no idea of the role that is going to be played by traditional leaders. We are worried that the Government is not coming out clearly as far as the demands of traditional leaders are concerned.

We regard the proposed plan as an attempt to sideline the traditional way of governing in order to enforce the Western way. I would like to inform the hon the Minister that our feeling is that the demands made by traditional leaders, and the concerns of the rural people, are being ignored. In fact, they must be discussed in a way that will produce good results in the end. A compromise should be reached as it will spark co- operation which will bring about a satisfactory conclusion.

There is a continuing worry which might cause problems if the Government does not come out clearly as soon as possible. For instance, people are worried about what the previous speaker has just mentioned, for example, that people will be taxed for owning land. The question is, are these things not going to continue until they happen in the rural areas, the extremely poor parts of the country? Will the rural people not be expected to pay taxes for the land on which they are living? We know that the rural areas are unlike the urban areas, where people spend a lot of money because they also have to pay for the services that the Government is providing for them. I am talking about services like the supply of water and many other things. It will take time for these services to be enjoyed by the rural people.

Therefore, we appeal to the hon the Minister to listen because he has ears. We appeal to him not to allow this issue to be mishandled because we are afraid of the result that such carelessness might produce. To take an example, in KwaZulu-Natal where I come from, this issue has created serious tension. The way we think this issue has been dealt with makes it impossible to know what is going to happen.

There is a big issue that does not come out clearly whenever it is discussed. Traditional leaders are not heeded. Government representatives respond by saying that the powers of the amakhosi will be streamlined when the municipal system is implemented in the rural areas. I would like to inform the hon the Minister that we are surprised. If we know that municipalities have the right to govern in the rural areas, how can we say that the powers of the amakhosi will not be tampered with? We know that in the rural areas, land is governed by the amakhosi. We know that the amakhosi, together with their headmen and their councils, play a role in the fencing in of fields to be ploughed. They play a role in giving land to people so that they can prosper. They are key role-players in taking decisions, including those pertaining to the development of their areas. They also play a role in taking tough decisions so as to enable the building of clinics, schools and many other things.

Therefore, we think that these issues are not being properly addressed if the Government representatives respond in this way. It seems as if some people are playing political games here. I have been impelled by this feeling to stand up and issue a warning as I am asking the hon the Minister to clarify this issue. People must come out clearly about it.

We know that an important step has been taken by traditional leaders, especially in KwaZulu-Natal, because they are worried about the seriousness of this issue. They have taken a decision to go to the President’s office to ask the President to intervene because they feel that all possible means should be used to avoid the looming danger as they see it.

At the beginning I pointed out to the hon the Minister that I might say unfavourable things which could sound absurd. We believe that it is good to warn against the danger while there is still a chance to avoid it. It will be good if people heed these warnings. The danger will be avoided and people will not say why did you not warn us because you were already aware that there might be a danger in this process.

I would like to say to the hon the Minister that we hope that the letters that our President wrote to the amakhosi give hope and assurance that nothing will prevent him from fulfilling his promise. In his letters he assures the traditional leaders that no conclusion will be reached on this issue without consulting with them until a unanimous decision is taken. Failing to keep this promise will cause great danger. It will mean that the trust that the traditional leaders have in the President, has been betrayed. It will mark the end of the good progress that the Department of Provincial Affairs and Local Government and the hon the Minister are making and which we all appreciate. We appeal to the hon the Minister to handle this matter with great care and attention.]

Ms M VERWOERD: Mr Chairperson, hon Minister, comrades and colleagues, I was honestly hoping to have a rigorous debate with the hon Selfe. But really this one-size-fits-all … [Interjections.] Wait until I speak, then you echo … not-transparent-enough debate has been responded to so many times that it is really becoming boring. Let us hope that all these councillors who so very ungraciously deserted the New NP Titanic yesterday will actually bring some new thinking into our Official Opposition. But I somehow doubt that. [Interjections.]

Local government has a crucial role to play in rebuilding our local communities and their environments. This forms the basis for a democratic, integrated, prosperous and truly nonracial society - a society where people have a future with a better life. The legacy of apartheid is all too present in every town, village and neighbourhood. Apartheid has fundamentally damaged the spatial, social and economic environment that people live in. It has also fundamentally damaged the environment that they raise their families in and in which they seek to find fulfilment. It is this legacy that the Constitution urges and compels us to address in Chapter 7. We are told that local government should not only provide for democratic and accountable government, but also has to promote social and economic development as well as the provision of services in a sustainable manner.

During the transitional period, municipalities were merged, but it was almost immediately apparent that these structures would not meet the developmental needs of our societies. For example, most municipalities did not succeed in integrating our communities, and railway lines still almost inevitably form the boundaries and often the borders between citizens of the same town.

Yes, it is true that many municipalities are not financially viable and will not become financially viable in the foreseeable future. But that is exactly why we need a completely new system, why we need new structures and, not least of all, a new mindset, which I sometimes doubt that our opposition has.

It was against this background that the massive task of transforming local government started. The first and very important leg of this process is that of demarcating new boundaries. It is well known by now that the Demarcation Board was set up in terms of the Constitution and started its work just over a year ago. The board comprises only one full-time member, namely Dr Michael Sutcliffe, and eight part-time members.

What was clear from the start and inevitably became clear as the months went by was that the daunting task that they faced was a very difficult one. It was required of them to demarcate the whole country in a way that would integrate communities and seek to make municipalities financially viable. But this also had to be done in a transparent and open way without favour and prejudice.

During their work, the Demarcation Board was always available to the portfolio committee, and also gave it very impressive submissions and an overview of their work during our budget hearings. Information was freely available not only to politicians but also to the general public. An Internet site was set up and, remarkably, it has received almost a million visits since its inception. Apparently, it is now being visited 400 000 times per month. [Interjections.]

A toll-free course centre was also established for those who could not make use of the Internet facilities, like some people here on my left. Following the publication of the draft boundaries, the board had 148 public hearings attended by almost seven and a half thousand people and received almost two and a half thousand submissions.

Meetings were also held with all the political parties, and I believe the fact that all the political parties at some stage, including the ANC, were not happy with some of the boundaries is an indication of the board’s objectivity despite all the howling on the left. [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! Hon members, allow this speaker to have a say. What her grandfather did in his time was his business. What she will have to do now is her business. So allow her to just carry on. [Applause.]

Ms M VERWOERD: After this exhausting process, the board has demarcated the outer boundaries of six metros, 232 category V municipalities, 47 category C municipalities and 26 district management areas. A further addition is the proposed 15 cross-boundary municipalities. The cross-boundary municipality Bill will be before the committee, hopefully, within the next few days.

The ward dermacation will, hopefully, also be completed by the end of this month. Simultaneous to all of this the board has been investigating the financial and institutional capacity of the proposed municipalities, in order to be able to advise the MEC of local government in every province as to the division of powers and functions between the local and district municipalities.

The MEC in each province will now have the very difficult task of setting up these municipalities through what is called a section 12 notice. What is clear is that there will be a significant reduction in the number of municipalities, and this will also result in a significant reduction in the number of councillors, almost 3 000. It will ensure a leaner and meaner local government system, focusing on delivery.

Now some of the parties in this House that have been complaining about this reduction should be reminded that there was widespread consensus when the formula determining the number of councillors was published by the Minister. It is also important to remember that we will have, for the first time, full-time councillors who will be able to spend all their time focusing on the needs of those who elected them.

Some criticism has been expressed, also by members in this House, saying that not enough financial modelling was done in order to make sure that these municipalities will be financially viable, and many gloomy predictions have already been made. One of my colleagues will also address this later, but it is completely premature to make such a judgment.

We must remember that demarcation, although playing an important role in the financial viability of municipalities, does not solely determine this issue. The financial viability of municipalities must be seen in the context of the ongoing review of local government finance. What is remarkable, though, is that the board has been able to stick to such a strict timeframe, despite the extensive consultation process that they have been going through. Although the finer demarcation detail will still be looked at for a long time, it is believed that the board will be able to complete its work in time for the election to take place within a month of our passing the cross-boundary municipality Bill, and I think they should be congratulated on this.

The local government transformation process is, without doubt, one of the most difficult and challenging phases that we have to face in our transition. It is crucial that we do not have any passive spectators in the process, or whining oppositional forces. [Time expired.] [Applause.]

Mr F J VAN DEVENTER: Chairperson, the most important responsibility of any government is to execute its functions in such a way that it enhances trust and security amongst the citizens, notwithstanding their social, financial or cultural status within the national community. If a government fails to achieve this goal, then, most certainly, it will sooner than later find itself in a position in which crisis management and damage control will take up most of its time.

The South African Government in general and especially the Department of Provincial and Local Government are sliding faster and faster into this mould. Surely local government is the most sensitive sphere of government, ruling the lives of people on a very personal level? It is, thus, of paramount importance that the people within the boundaries of a municipality feel secure, safe, well serviced and well governed. Unfortunately, this is not the case at this moment in time.

Uncertainty grows from day to day, not primarily from what people experience every day, but because they are in the dark about what is waiting for them in the emerging new local government system. This uncertainty cannot be ignored any longer.

Dit is ‘n gevaarlike speelveld vir onverantwoordelike ontleders en raadgewers wat besig is om die proses van nasiebou aan die een kant en finansiële verdraagsaamheid aan die ander kant erg te knou. [This is a dangerous playing field for irresponsible analysts and advisers who are seriously prejudicing the process of nation-building on the one hand, and financial tolerance on the other.]

This unwanted situation originated in the demarcation process. I know that the ANC will argue that the process was transparent. Many traditional leaders do not think so. People and organisations outside the ANC- orientated school of thought do not think so. As far as ward boundaries are concerned, there is even more dissatisfaction. Communities growing over a period of many decades, with vested community interests which were built together, were cut to pieces and merged with parts of other unfortunate communities with whom they really have nothing in common. This kind of ignorance and heavy-handedness is, most certainly, not a good start for effective local government.

Tweedens is daar steeds groot onrustigheid oor die finansiële vermoëns van die nuwe munisipaliteite. Dit is eenvoudig onaanvaarbaar dat daar slegs vyf en ‘n half maande voor hierdie nuwe munisipaliteite moet begin funksioneer nog geen planne in plek of inligting beskikbaar is oor wat finansieel haalbaar en nie haalbaar is nie.

Al wat ons elke keer hoor, is dat die betrokke Minister met die Minister van Finansies in gesprek is. Niemand weet waaroor hulle praat nie, niemand weet wat die vertrekpunt is en op watter inligting dit gebaseer is wanneer hulle praat nie. Hulle praat net, en hulle hou aan met praat. Vra ‘n mens vrae in die portefeuljekomitee, dan hoor jy hulle praat, maar sover dit die verkryging van die relevante inligting betref, kan jy net sowel die vrae aan ‘n buikspreker se pop stel as sy hanteerder nie teenwoordig is nie. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)

[Secondly, there is still a great deal of concern about the financial abilities of the new municipalities. It is simply unacceptable that, only five and a half months before these new municipalities have to start functioning, there are still no plans in place or information available on what is financially viable and what is not.

All we hear time and again, is that the Minister concerned is consulting with the Minister of Finance. Nobody knows what they are discussing, nobody knows what the point of departure is and on what information their discussions are based. All they do is talk, and keep on talking. Should one ask questions in the portfolio committee, one is told that they are talking, but as far as acquiring the relevant information is concerned, one might just as well put the questions to a ventriloquist’s dummy when its handler is not present.]

It is against this backround that I believe every responsible person will understand the emotional upheaval caused by speculation about the secret municipal property rates Bill. I believe that not a single member of this House knows whether the latest draft of this Bill is the 10th, 12th or 13th version. All that we know is that it is circulated amongst stakeholders for their comment and input, whatever draft it may be.

Surely members of this Parliament - the so-called democratically elected representatives of the people - are stakeholders too? If one does not trust all of them, then, most certainly, the members of the portfolio committee, especially the opposition members, can be trusted and therefore empowered to consult those stakeholders who are not on the selected mailing list of the ANC.

This would most certainly benefit the quality of debate around this Bill in the portfolio committee, as well as in this House. When one studies the municipal systems Bill and the 10th draft of the property rates Bill, it is extremely disturbing to see the powers these two Bills give the Minister. As they stand, these two Bills are nothing but Bills empowering the Minister to legislate by way of regulation.

I want to put it very bluntly that if the Minister does not have enough trust in the members of this National Assembly to execute their constitutional responsibility as legislators, then something is seriously wrong with the Minister’s attitude towards democratically elected parliamentary institutions. If that is not the case, then the Minister really has no confidence in ANC members’ ability to play their role as legislators. They are the majority in this House, as well as in the portfolio committee.

The third and most serious situation emerging from this is an effort by officials to run the legislative process from behind the closed doors of their offices. This can be seen as a motion of no confidence in the Minister’s ability to run the department for which he is responsible. That is also a severe slap in the face of the parliamentary institutions of South Africa.

I want to extend a word of thanks to the chairperson, Mr Yunus Carrim. He is capable, hard-working and sometimes very time-consuming. [Laughter.] Owing to the number of uncertainties on crucial local Government issues, ranging from financial measures to administrative and legislative procedures, the New NP cannot support this department’s Vote.

Ek wil my ten slotte aan die vooraand van die munisipale verkiesings tot ‘n ander belangrike saak wend, en dit is die verpligting wat op politieke partyleiers rus om ook in hierdie tyd die Grondwet van die Republiek van Suid-Afrika in plek te hou. Ons roem ons met trots daarop dat ons ‘n regstaat is. In hierdie Huis en in sy komitees word groot klem gelê op die grondwetlikheid al dan nie van wetgewing. Om verandering aan die Grondwet voor te stel is byna heiligskennis.

‘n Baie prominente eksponent hiervan is die agb leier van die DP en sy party. [Tussenwerpsels.] Nou kom hierdie einste agb lid gister, wel wetend wat die voorskrifte van die Grondwet is, en hy sê daar is nog baie raadslede van ander partye wat by hulle ingeskryf het as lede, maar dat hy nie hulle name kan bekend maak nie, omdat hulle op die proporsionele lyste van hulle partye is, en dus hulle posisies as raadslede sal verloor.

Die agb leier van die DP moet vir ons sê, hy moet vir Suid-Afrika sê, of die beginsels van sy party, waarop hy hom so roem, voorsiening maak vir dubbele lidmaatskap. [Tussenwerpsels.] Hy wil nie saam met ander opposisiepartye werk nie, maar hy laat ingeskrewe lede van daardie partye toe om terselfdertyd ook lid van sy party te wees. [Tussenwerpsels.] Indien wel, het hy stawende ooreenkomste met enige ander party? Hy het beslis nie ‘n ooreenkoms in hierdie verband met die Nuwe NP nie. Ten opsigte van die Nuwe NP is sy party dus besig met ‘n politieke bedrogspel. Hy moet sê watter partye nog slagoffers is van sy konkelry. [Tussenwerpsels.]

Ek wil dit vandag vir die Progleier sê - hulle is niks anders as die ou Progge met ‘n ander naam nie - daar is geen verskil tussen krieketspelers wat betaal word om wedstryde te beknoei en politieke partyleiers wat die Grondwet van die land ignoreer om die ekstase van egobevrediging te ervaar nie. [Tussenwerpsels.] Die agb lid moet die integriteit van die Grondwet van die Republiek van Suid-Afrika en sy eie en dié van sy eie party beskerm en die name van hierdie politieke sluipers agter wie hy so aanloop, bekendmaak.

Hy is dit aan Suid-Afrika verskuldig, hy wat elke dag opstaan en sê sy party kan nie wetgewing steun as dit nie voldoen aan die grondwetlike vereistes nie. Hulle sit vandag hier as die primêre verkragters van die Grondwet van die Republiek van Suid-Afrika. [Tussenwerpsels.] [Applous.] (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)

[In conclusion, on the eve of the municipal elections, I want to touch on another important issue, and that is the obligation of leaders of political parties to keep the Constitution of the Republic of South Africa in place at this time. We pride ourselves on being a constitutional state. In this House and its committees great emphasis is placed on the constitutionality or otherwise of legislation. Proposing amendments to the Constitution almost amounts to sacrilege.

A very prominent exponent of this is the hon leader of the DP and his party. [Interjections.] Now this very same hon member came yesterday, knowing full well what the provisions of the Constitution are, and said that there were many more councillors from other parties who had registered with them as members, but that he could not disclose their names because they were on the proportional lists of their parties and would therefore lose their positions as councillors.

The hon leader of the DP must tell us, he must tell South Africa, whether the principles of his party, of which he is so proud, provide for dual membership. [Interjections.] He does not want to co-operate with other opposition parties, but he allows registered members of those parties to be members of his party at the same time. [Interjections.] If so, does he have corroborative agreements with any other party? He definitely has no agreement in this regard with the New NP. With regard to the New NP his party is therefore engaged in a political swindle. He must tell us which other parties are also victims of his plotting. [Interjections.]

I want to say to the Prog leader today - they are nothing but the old Progs with another name - that there is no difference between cricket players who get paid to rig matches and leaders of political parties who ignore the Constitution of the country to experience the ecstasy of gratifying their egos. [Interjections.] The hon member must protect the integrity of the Constitution of the Republic of South Africa, his own integrity and that of his own party, and reveal the names of these political sneaks whom he is patronising.

He owes this to South Africa, he who rises to his feet every day and says that his party cannot support legislation if it does not meet the constitutional requirements. They are sitting here today as the primary violaters of the Constitution of the Republic of South Africa. [Interjections.] [Applause.]]

Mr I B NTSHANGASE: Chairperson … [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! Before Mr Ntshangase begins his speech, I have to say this. Hon members, please lessen the noise in this House. ``Cowboys do not cry’’, is a very good idiom for the prairies of the United States and Canada. [Laughter.] If you are not a cowboy, you will never know if they cry or not. [Laughter.] Please continue, sir.

Mr I B NTSHANGASE: Mr Chairperson, the local government funding has improved remarkably since our new democratic dispensation. It differs from the times when the NP were winning hearts and minds. This has provided relative certainty and stability to this sphere of government.

All the funds flowing to local government like the Consolidated Municipal Infrastructure Programme, agency grant payments, the municipal support programme and financial restructuring grant programmes are all well appreciated. But there is a recurring concern when it comes to the equitable share. We welcome the department’s investigation on the matter and we are awaiting their report. The majority of us in the portfolio committee do not understand on what precisely this formula is based, since our municipalities have very different fiscal capacities. We urge that this matter be addressed in the incoming Budget process with all the relevant stakeholders.

As local government prepares for its final phase of transformation and restructuring, it is faced with many challenges. Some of the demarcated districts and local municipalities have very limited asset bases and very limited administrative capacities to service and deliver to their constituencies. It is for some of these reasons that our committee urges the department and Municipal Demarcation Board to move with the necessary speed, now that demarcations are complete, to investigate potential revenues, expenditures, assets and liabilities, management capacities and other efficiencies of the new municipalities. The system of property rates is one of the main revenue sources for local government. But the system is fragmented throughout the country. Many municipalities have not updated it for many years. We therefore believe the Minister and the department are correct in proposing national legislation to correct the situation. We believe that this will provide clear guidelines and guidance to local municipalities.

There are, however, people who want to use this proposed Bill for their selfish and destructive politicking, especially as we go to local government elections. Any legislation that this Government produces will be based on and will be within the adopted macroeconomic framework of this Government.

The suggestions, such as the ones on the Internet, that the Bill will increase valuations by 7 to 8%, and therefore increase the rates, are laughable. What it means is this. Let us take an ordinary house of about R500 000. The rates that they are paying a month is about R400. But what is being suggested on this Internet is that people will be paying R4 000 a month. As a result, people are now putting their properties on the market. We believe that people who are doing this are guilty of sabotaging the property market, and they should be stopped. We also believe that the legislation will not increase rates and the revenue, because that is the function of the local council.

We are setting up the policies that will be of guidance to local structures, not with the intention to increase the rates, as many people are suggesting to the public. We expect that politicians will be very patient, that they will wait and give the Minister and the department a chance to formulate a policy and gazette it so that the public can participate in it. We do not understand why especially the opposition parties are jumping up and down about the policy that is being refined by the department before it goes out to the public. We also believe that the parliamentary process will give them enough chance to air whatever views they have in public. There is nothing sinister in that.

We believe that a draft document on demarcation and the role of traditional leaders seeks to address all kinds of concerns. We are aware of the concerns and the overlaps that are there between local councils and traditional leaders, but let us go through the process, all of us, and find the answers. [Applause.] Chief N Z MTIRARA: Mhlalingaphambili, izitatanyiswa zombuso namalungu, ndiyakhahlela kubantwana begazi namakhosazana. [Chairperson, hon members, I salute all the traditional leaders.]

The provincial and local government budget for the year 2000-01 has adequate provision of funds to finance essential needs and basic requirements of both the rural and urban communities whose needs it is intended to address. The acute shortcomings and budgetary constraints in the provincial local government finances have been noticeable during the past six years, since 1994, and the cumulative effect of lack of provision of adequate funds to meet the basic needs and essential requirements of the local communities has resulted in the severe backlogs of service delivery that continued to inconvenience the residents for a number of years.

A noticeable disparity in the provision for the provincial local government budget is that a significantly larger portion of the budget allocation is directed at addressing problems that are facing urban areas, whilst an insignificant portion of the budget is earmarked to address problems that are facing rural communities. This discrimination between rural and urban societies is a legacy of apartheid allocation of resources and has, over the years, increased polarisation between these two distinct societies, and has also tended to increase income disparities as well as disparities in the quality of life between the rural and urban residents.

It is a fundamental principle of democracy that benefits that are accruing to the citizens of a country should be distributed in equal amounts to all the inhabitants, irrespective of any perceived, or imagined, discriminatory parameters that constrained compliance with internationally accepted standards. The problem that faces South Africa is an economic one - the equitable distribution of welfare in the light of scarce resources. This process of equitable distribution of resources in the rural and urban areas is one that needed to have been addressed during the budget proposals for the administration of rural and urban areas. These will now be administered as a single unit.

The question of sustainability of the provision of services in the rural areas will be greatly constrained by the rural areas’ inability to generate income to finance development activities to sustain livelihood in rural areas. In the light of the above, it would be prudent for the authorities to provide a supplementary budget adjustment to meet this contingency in their planned programme of effective integration of rural and urban communities and for meaningful local government elections during the year 2000.

It is, indeed, a sorry sight to observe that the provincial and local government budget for the year 2000-01 does not provide a mechanism for meaningful transformation of rural communities and, in particular, capacity- building and realistic empowerment of rural councils so that they can have an administrative capacity to operate from offices and be provided with a budget to finance their operational expenditure. At present, rural councils are regarded as nothing better than the old advisory boards of the apartheid era. We expected that these anomalies would be addressed in the provincial and local government budget for the year 2000-01. It is inconceivable that, in the 21st century, the Government is seen to be propagating and supporting some of the policies of the past and maintaining structural disequilibrium in the financing of communities.

South Africa is a product of apartheid and the ugly head of apartheid will continue to rise from time to time for us all to see. This ugly head is the vestige of the apartheid era and must at all costs be removed from the present democratic scene of South Africa’s landscape. It is therefore the responsibility of all elected members of this House to ensure that the people of South Africa are not reminded of their horrible past. The economic structural design of South Africa is of a dual nature.

In spite of the anomalies above, we, however, wish to state that we accept this carefully planned and workshopped budget which is good and does not need too much hammer and chisel work as this might spoil the whole broth. We wish to commend those who prepared it for provision of services to the citizens of this country. [Applause.]

Mrs R M SOUTHGATE: Chairperson, hon Minister, this is the year of the local government elections. It is appropriate because of the growth in globalisation and the challenges that such relations place upon local government. In other words, the sphere of local government must, by its very definition, become the most important hub around which service delivery is designed.

The demarcation of municipalities looks fine on paper, but the process has not as yet convinced communities that the system will offer them an alternative. People will be far removed from the decision-making mechanisms, thus making local government a misnomer. Furthermore, the costs of establishing these municipalities have not been finalised and these costs have not been budgeted for in this year’s budget.

In 1994, the buzzword in Government circles was RDP. But what has transpired is that it has been replaced by restructuring and redeployment. Those who have been affected the worst are the poor and underresourced. Government, for instance, demands from municipalities that they perform at a given ratio against certain budgeting requirements, but does not provide a sustainable framework to help local authorities overcome the infrastructural weaknesses. A disturbing example, in this case, is the unwanted use of the pension funds by municipalities to cover their running costs and to balance their books.

What is the future of local government in this country? First of all, most local authorities do not have the capacity to take along with them Government’s macroeconomic growth model in their jurisdiction. Secondly, the demarcation of boundaries is a new and complex phenomenon and with the relative inadequate finance to restructure the new system, local governments will find it a strain to actually perform the service they are meant to deliver.

Finance has to be generated by individual municipalities for service delivery. It has been found that there is no uniformity in tax capacity of municipalities. Rural areas are unable to raise revenue through property rates. In the urban areas, people are fearful of exorbitant property rates. Media, specifically a particular magazine, informed the public of the apparent new rates statistics which are causing property owners to place their property on the market for the fear of not being able to afford their rates in the future.

I believe that the property rating Bill is in its 10th draft, but as a member of the committee I have not received a copy of any draft.

Mr D A A OLIFANT: You must come to the meeting to get the real story!

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! Mrs R M SOUTHGATE: I do not know what the underlying principles are and thus it has understandably given rise to a lot of speculation.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! Hon member, do you understand the meaning of a call to order? [Laughter.]

Mrs R M SOUTHGATE: No, I want to continue and ask the Minister …

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! Please be seated.

Mrs R M SOUTHGATE: Chairperson, my time is running short.

The DEPUTY CHAIPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! Hon member over there, you are not allowed to shout out from your seat at the member on the podium. Please continue, hon member.

Mrs R M SOUTHGATE: Can the Minister assure this House today that this Bill will not have the effect that people who have lived in their homes for more than 30 or 40 years will be homeless as a result of the speculated rates? I think the Minister needs to do that today. Thirdly, there is no apparent progress or social upliftment programmes and it will become the primary burden of local government to carry the plight of the poor and destitute. In other words, unless there is a concerted effort and will to strenghten the capacity of local government, the poor will remain poor and the local government will remain ineffective. [Applause.]

Mr S A MSHUDULU: Chairperson, hon members, ladies and gentlemen, I stand here on behalf of the ANC to join this budget debate that is closest to the hearts of the majority of those who voted the ANC into power.

The ANC made a pledge to accelerate delivery aimed at transforming our local government and uplifting or bettering the lives of our people. The implementation of this pledge will be guided by the Mafikeng resolutions, the RDP, the Local Government White Paper, the Local Government Municipal Demarcation Act, the Local Government Municipal Structures Act and the Local Government: Municipal Systems Bill, as dictated by the Constitution.

Let us be mindful of the problems and challenges facing us. These include the past land settlement patterns which ignored development in poorer areas, lower and poor quality of service delivery to those who cannot afford and are disadvantaged, poor or lack of democratic considerations for community involvement in local economic development and service delivery, insufficient resources to finance and manage transformation, and the lack of capacity-building both in the municipality and of personnel that compromise both our service delivery and democracy.

With the above realisation, the ANC reaffirms its commitment to speed up delivery towards the provision of service through the following: Building on what we have achieved in the last five years and making bigger impact towards advancing the lives of our people, who are the majority. The process of transformation shall be guided by the concepts like Mashakhane, RDP, Batho Pele, the National Framework Agreement and the Labour Relations Act. Therefore, for the Government to be more efficient and effective, it must give priority to the basic needs of the people. It must promote the social and economic development of its people. It must ensure that all residents and communities in such municipalities have access to at least a minimum level of basic services.

In terms of sections 152 and 153 of the Constitution, a municipality must stay within its financial and administrative capacity. It must also give services that are fair and equitable to all residents and communities. It must ensure the highest quality service at the lowest cost and the most economical use of allocation of available resources. It must also be financially and environmentally sustainable. It must regularly be reviewed with a view to upgrading, extension and improvement. It is therefore opportune for me to further address the members on local government restructuring, especially as it relates to municipal partnerships.

Restructuring must be understood to be the reorganisation of money, men, women, machinery, systems and change in policy aimed at achieving a specific objective. This objective can, amongst others, be aimed at addressing economic, technological and structural problems or goals that will benefit the Government, workers and all stakeholders. This process is further guided by transparency, sound relationships, trust and best agreements. Restructuring comes at a time when there is a dire need to transform local government. Because of new challenges, we need … [Interjections.] The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! Hon member over there, you are not allowed to have a conversation during debate time with members in the cross benches. Please continue, sir.

Mr S A MSHUDULU: Because of new challenges, we need to adopt new approaches that might include, amongst others, building on existing capacity, corporatisation, public-public participation, partnership with community- based organisations and nongovernmental organisations, contracting out, leases and concessions, and transfer of ownership without compromising its constitutional obligations.

Restructuring can only come when the IDP demands a change in the delivery mechanism. It can also come after performance evaluation of councils, when there is a need for institutional restructuring and reorganisation, as the Local Government: Municipal Structures Act and the Local Government: Municipal Systems Bill demand, when communities have an interest in service partnership, or when the MEC for local government so decides.

The ANC believes strongly in capacity-building as the only way that our communities and all other stakeholders can be empowered to deliver and sustain quality services. It is for this reason that Government needs to develop a system, such as service providers like Seta, in order to address capacity needs assessment. It also needs to develop and implement targeted capacity-building programmes and to evaluate the effectiveness, efficiency, responsiveness and impact of capacity-building.

We need to monitor all training providers funded by Government in terms of quality training, accountability, qualified trainers and accredited courses. Lastly, the portfolio committee is committed to keeping a close look at progress made in the coming six months.

Leyo yindlela ekuya kuthi kuguqulwe ngayo indlela yokusebenza engakhange ibe luncedo kubantu bakuthi. [Laphela ixesha.] [Kwaghwatywa.] [That is how we can change the manner of working which did not benefit our people. [Time expired.] [Applause.]]

Dr P W A MULDER: Mr Chairman, I have listened to the ANC for the past six years in this House. One thing is clear: If one wants to understand ANC policies, one should not listen to what they say, but should look at what they do. Beautiful statements were made in this House by the ANC, such as the statements on the section 185 Commission pertaining to language and cultural diversity in South Africa, and statements which the FF applauded. But when it came to putting that into action, nothing happened.

Let us compare two sections in the Constitution to illustrate this point, these are sections 6(2) and 9(2). Section 9(2) deals with affirmative action, and states that in order to achieve this, measures ``may’’ be taken. This issue has been championed during the past four years by the ANC in every Bill before this House. Several Bills were passed that dealt only with affirmative action. Therefore it is clearly an ANC priority. And that is their priority.

However, section 6(2) in the Constitution, which is the language section, does not say may'' as in the affirmative action section. It says that the statemust’’ take measures to elevate the status of all South African languages. Section 6(3)(b), for example, says that municipalities must'' take language preferences of the residents into account. ANC city councils ignore this. Section 6(5) states that PanSALB, the Pan South African Language Board,must’’ promote and protect all official languages. Government departments ignore this.

Die vraag is: is dit die ware ANC en sy werklike houding teenoor taalverskeidenheid en kultuurgroepe in Suid-Afrika of nie? Dit is duidelik by hulle geen prioriteit nie. Daar is nou sprake van taalwetgewing voor hierdie Raad. Ons verwelkom dit, en sal graag wil sien hoe lyk hierdie wetsontwerp. Alle ander wette wat uit die Grondwet voortgespruit het, is reeds in plek. Nou, vier jaar later, kom taal eers aan die orde.

Dieselfde geld die beoogde wetsontwerp wat uit artikel 185 van die Grondwet voortspruit. Alle ander kommissies wat uit die Grondwet voortspruit, was binne maande ná die aanvaarding van die Grondwet reeds in plek. Ek was die nag teenwoordig toe die finale bewoording van artikel 185 in ‘n klein komiteetjie gefinaliseer is. Die VF het dit voorgestel in die grondwetskrywende vergadering. Wat die VF tot nou van die nuwe wetsontwerp gesien het, is egter nie vir ons aanvaarbaar nie. Dit gaan geensins die probleme aanspreek nie, en die VF wil voorstel dat die hele wetsontwerp vir verdere konsultasie terugverwys word. Ons het ons besware skriftelik uiteengesit hoekom ons dink dit gaan nie werk nie. Dit gaan net nog ‘n liggaam word om mense te probeer troos en te probeer koudlei, sonder tande of enige effektiewe magte.

Ons wil voorstel dat ons die erns van die ANC oor hierdie sake van kultuur- en groepsbelange toets deur eers taalwetgewing deur die Parlement te voer. Daarná sal ons kan agterkom of die ANC werklik ernstig is om die regte van alle gemeenskappe in Suid-Afrika tot hulle reg te laat kom. Is die Regering bereid om wetgewing oor tale te aanvaar wat werklik die taalverskeidenheid gaan aanspreek? Kom ons praat dan daarná sinvol oor die artikel 185- kommissie, want ek dink dié goed hou verband, en dan is daar ook ‘n duidelike werk en taak vir die artikel 185-kommissie.

In die wêreld is hierdie sake ‘n hoofprioriteit om konflik te voorkom. As die ANC dit nie gou besef nie, gaan hierdie sake hulle in Suid-Afrika op die agenda forseer. [Tyd verstreke.] (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)

[The question is: Is that the true ANC and its real stance regarding the diversity of languages and cultural groups in South Africa, or not? It is clearly not a priority with them. Now there is talk of legislation on languages before this House. We welcome this and would like to see what this Bill looks like. All the other Acts that have arisen from the Constitution are already in place. Only now, four years later, does language get a turn.

The same applies to the proposed Bill arising from section 185 of the Constitution. All the other commissions that have arisen from the Constitution were already in place within months after the Constitution had been agreed to. I was present on the night when the final wording of section 185 was agreed upon in a little committee. The FF had proposed it in the constitutional assembly. What the FF has seen up to now of the new Bill, however, is not acceptable to us. It will not address the problems at all, and the FF wants to propose that the whole Bill be referred back for further consultation. We have set out our objections in writing as to why we think it will not work. It is going to be just another body which attempts to comfort people and sidetrack them, without teeth or any effective powers.

We want to propose that we test whether the ANC is in earnest about these issues of cultural and group interests by first piloting legislation on languages through Parliament. After that we will be able to ascertain whether the ANC is really in earnest about allowing the rights of all communities in South Africa to come into their own. Is the Government prepared to agree to legislation on languages which will really address the linguistic diversity? Let us then go ahead and talk about the section 185 commission, because I believe that these matters are related and then there will also be a clear job and task for the section 185 commission.

Around the world these issues are a major priority in preventing conflict. If the ANC does not realise this soon, these matters will force themselves onto the agenda in South Africa. [Time expired.]]

Rev A D GOOSEN: Mr Chairperson, I just want to remind the hon Mr Mulder that the NP was in power for 48 years and they did absolutely nothing. We in the ANC, on the other hand, have been in power for six years, and we have made great strides. If one goes to our constituencies, one will see the difference. But if one goes to Sandton and Yeoville in Johannesburg, one will not see anything, because they had everything and they have been living off the fat of the land all these years.

Intergovenmental relations is an important pillar on which our system of government is built. It is firmly entrenched in the Constitution, and we need to reinforce it every so often for it to best serve its purpose. Needless to say, the principles of intergovernmental relations, as set out in the Constitution, must be adhered to by all levels of government.

One of the constitutional principles of intergovernmental relations is the obligation of organs of state to co-operate with one another in mutual trust and good faith. May I add that even if those organs of state are in the hands of the opposition, co-operation and mutual trust must still be forthcoming.

Having said that, it goes without saying that provinces must exercise oversight over the municipalities in their areas of jurisdiction. They must also allow local government to be represented in their legislatures and, by so doing, serve the interests of the public at grassroots level, thus effectively extending the basis of democracy.

A worrying aspect, though, is the fact that whereas intergovernmental relations make provision for co-operation between organs of state, we find that there is not enough provincial co-operation. I would like to see provincial exchanges taking place on a regular basis, especially where there are matters of common concern. I believe that a forum for such co- operation is a necessity. The department must look into the feasibility of setting up such a forum. I also want to add that such a forum could also be helpful especially since the more prosperous provinces tend to perform very well, whereas those which are performing poorly, are those which are still suffering the effects of the homeland policy.

The capacity of the underachieving provinces could be greatly enhanced by co-operation within a forum, with those provinces who have something to offer in terms of advice, resourcefulness and ideas helping the less advantaged provinces. I believe that those weaker provinces stand much to gain from such co-operation, and that inter-provincial forums could well be a stepping stone towards the enrichment of the provincial system.

There are strands which are saying that the provincial system must be replaced because of bad performance during the past years. It is being argued that corruption, mismanagement and wastage are running rife in some provinces, and that an alternate system must be brought into being. This, however, is not the view of the majority in the portfolio committee. We are well aware of the faults and failures of some of the provinces, but may I add that the strengths of the provinces outweigh their weaknesses by far.

Besides, if we want to talk about the weaknesses of a system then we need to take cognisance of the fact that the best systems in the world took many years to evolve. The Australian system of provincial government, for instance, took some 300 years to develop, and they gradually refined their system of government to what it is today. It must be borne in mind that their system was not developed overnight. So it is to be expected with our young democracy that there are going to be mistakes here and there. Australia has developed one of the best public administration systems in the world, but we are not in a position to compete with them. Our system will best be developed through trial and error.

I know that the department is currently working on a policy document on intergovernment relations. Even this document is not going to be the ultimate in terms of our achievements. It is, though, going to be a step towards a perfect system and therefore I say the provincial system must be consolidated and reinforced so that provinces can come into their own through growth and thus become everything to everyone.

I would like to see provinces taken on board when national policy is determined, especially with regard to those competencies which the Constitution confers on them in Schedules 4 and 5. By provinces being brought on board at that early stage and not by the policies they confront in the provinces, they could well facilitate implementation of those policies.

We need to keep on fine-tuning our policies on intergovernmental relations. We need to iron out all the rough edges and to make them more pliable so that we may achieve the highest good this country has to offer all its people and, by so doing, build a better future for the nation as a whole. [Time expired.] [Applause.]

Mr P H K DITSHETELO: Chairperson, hon Minister, the Department of Provincial and Local Government aims to develop and promote a national system of comparative governance. This is a tall order in a country that has disparities ranging from the haves to the have-nots, from the high- ranking to the people of the earth. Provinces themselves are a headache for the central Government. The most immediate case in point is the Northern Province which owes Telkom close to R40 million in telephone bills. That this was allowed to accumulate to such an amount is a sign only of ineptitude. The other provinces also have their inadequacies.

The development of so-called wall-to-wall municipal governance is another headache. Much as it is argued that it is contained in the Constitution, the fact is that this Government knows that illiteracy is very high. Another issue is that South Africans are not avid readers, therefore kgosi and their subjects cannot be blamed for not being aware that their areas have to fall under municipal jurisdiction. The Government should have taken the trouble to educate them on these issues long before they were affected. The whole issue can simply be seen as small print by the consumer or as a hidden curriculum in education circles.

The issue of municipalities across the length and breadth of this country is compounded by the fact that the demarcation board still has to finalise delimitations. The possible introduction of a land tax in rural areas is a complicating factor. The affected illiterate person is ill-prepared for the matter. The question of remuneration of traditional leaders has to be finalised soon. We are aware that a White Paper on the matter is going round and hope the matter will be resolved and laid to rest.

It is hoped that the council of the department, the presidency and the provincial premiers will assist in ensuring that there is a measure of stability in the provinces and the country. Being new in its present form, the department has been adequately funded in the budget. If the councillors took on their responsibilities by using their allocation well the municipalities could be in a position to generate their own funds.

Mnr D A A OLIFANT: Mnr die Voorsitter, ek wil net vir die agb Frik van Deventer sê dit is nie net die DP wat die Grondwet ‘n groot onreg aandoen nie. Selfs die Nuwe NP doen dit, en tussen daardie twee partye het hulle die grootste verkragters geword van die Grondwet van Suid-Afrika. [Tussenwerpsels.] Die wil van die mense is nie verlede jaar met hulle koalisie in ag geneem nie.

Waar op aarde het ‘n mens al ooit gehoor dat die leier van ‘n party in ‘n koalisie dag in en dag uit deur ‘n ander maatjie in die koalisie verneder word? [Tussenwerpsels.] Daardie agb lede se bedmaatjies werk nie uit nie. Hulle moet saam met ons kom vry; ons het ‘n beter plan vir hulle! [Gelag.] Verder wil ek sê ek kan nie aanvaar dat die NP se leier so verneder word nie. Tony Leon het verlede jaar in die tydskrif Leadership SA gesê daardie agb lede se leier is niks anders as ‘n grootmond nie. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)

[Mr D A A OLIFANT: Mr Chairperson, I just want to tell the hon Frik van Deventer that it is not only the DP which is doing the Constitution a grave injustice. Even the New NP is doing so, and between those two parties they have become the biggest violators of the Constitution of South Africa. [Interjections.] The will of the people was not taken into consideration last year when they formed their coalition.

Where on earth has one ever heard of the leader of a party in a coalition being humiliated day in and day out by another member of the coalition? [Interjections.] Those hon members have the wrong bedfellows. They must come courting with us; we have a better plan for them! [Laughter.] Furthermore I want to say that I cannot accept the leader of the NP being humiliated like this. Last year in the publication Leadership SA Tony Leon said that those hon members’ leader was nothing but a loud mouth.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! Please come back to the topic at hand, sir.

Mr D A A OLIFANT: It is the topic, sir.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! No, it is not. You are going on to attack individuals and party members. The topic is provincial and local government.

Mr D A A OLIFANT: I am there.

Dit is inderdaad nou die tyd dat ons vir mnr Marthinus van Schalkwyk wil sê hy moet daardie koalisie ontbind, want hulle gaan net verdwyn. [Applous.]] [The time has indeed now come for us to tell Mr Marthinus van Schalkwyk that he must dissolve that coalition, because they are simply going to disappear. [Applause.]]

I want to ask Mrs Rhoda Southgate to please come to our committee meetings. She must stop flying around all over the world. If she is not used to the committee meetings, I will tell her about them because she cannot afford to have some simple PA come to our meetings and expect the PA to participate in our deliberations. It is not on. The PA is not an elected member of this committee and she is not an elected member of this Parliament. Mrs Southgate must get her facts in order.

Die transformasie van plaaslike regering het nou hopelik sy finale stadium bereik, en sodoende is meer mense in staat gestel om op ‘n meer doeltreffende manier by die vraagstukke van plaaslike regering betrokke te raak. Ons hoop die plaaslike regeringsverkiesings later vanjaar, asook die verwante beplanning en leweringsprosesse, sal uiteindelik die vrug baar van die belofte wat ons jong demokrasie al sedert 1994 toon. [Tussenwerpsels.] Daardie agb lede moet luister!

Natuurlik is daar ‘n paar van die boustene wat nog kortkom. Wat veral kommerwekkend is, is die vermoë van die nuutgetransformeerde munisipaliteite om die doelwitte te bereik wat die Grondwet en ook hulself aan hulle stel. Ons het in die Grondwet maatreëls verskans ingevolge waarvan munisipaliteite ‘n ontwikkelingstaak het. Ons het selfs ingestem dat hierdie munisipaliteite geïntegreerde ontwikkelingsplanne moet opstel wat aan hulle begrotings en dié van ander diensverskaffers gekoppel is, sodat dit as gids kan dien vir die manier waarop hierdie taak verrig moet word.

Dit is welbekend dat sommige van hierdie geïntegreerde ontwikkelingsplanne nog verbeter kan word. Die hoof uitvoerende beampte van die Ontwikkelingsbank van Suider-Afrika, dr Goldin, het onlangs gesê die meeste van die ontwikkelingsplanne gaan mank aan minstens twee faktore, naamlik die tegniese aspekte en ook dié wat gemeenskapsbetrokkenheid en -deelname betref. Hy het beklemtoon dat gemeenskappe steeds nie ten volle deel is van die beplanningsproses nie, ten spyte van al die beleidsrigtings en strategieë wat opgestel en beplanning wat gedoen is.

Plaaslike ekonomiese ontwikkeling is steeds net ‘n modewoord, en die voormalig benadeelde groepe is nog grootliks daarvan uitgesluit. Die gebrek aan ‘n gestruktureerde verwantskap tussen die gemeenskap en die munisipaliteite is onlangs weer gedurende die openbare verhore van die portefeuljekomitee aangedui as ‘n probleem. Om die kapasiteit van instellings en mense op te bou, is die hoeksteen van multisektorale ontwikkeling.

Verskeie kapasiteitsprobleme in die werksaamhede van bestaande munisipaliteite het ook aan die lig gekom. ‘n Mens hoop dat die toekomstige implementering van die megastad en ander nuwe vorms van munisipaliteite in ‘n groot mate dié probleme sal kan oplos, veral as dit genoegsame steun ontvang van sowel die nasionale as provinsiale regerings.

Die erns van hierdie taak is onlangs beklemtoon deur die rampe wat in verskeie dele van die land ervaar is. Dit is ‘n verdere bron van kommer om te lees dat die hulp wat as deel van die noodlenigingsprogram voorsien is, nie altyd die rampslagoffers bereik het nie. Watter les vir die toekoms kan ons hieruit leer? Ons hele benadering tot rampbestuur is weens hierdie gebeure onder verdenking geplaas.

Ek het die opposisiepartye vroeër vanjaar gevra waarom hulle so ‘n bohaai opskop as veldbrande in die Wes-Kaap die huise van gegoedes bedreig, maar wanneer gehuggies in plakkerskampe gereeld afbrand, word dit begroet met ‘n oorverdowende stilte van hulle kant. Die gebrek aan koördinering tussen die munisipaliteite van die Kaapse Metropolitaanse gebied en die provinsiale regering tydens dié rampe is toe wreed aan die kaak gestel. Weet ons egter werklik hoe ernstig die probleem is wat die gereelde voorkoms van brande in die plakkerskampe betref? Hierdie mense verloor die dak oor hul kop, al hul besittings en dikwels ook hul lewe. Sodoende word onstabiele en gefragmenteerde gemeenskappe ontwikkel.

Inligting kom nou vorendag wat meer lig sal kan werp op voorkomingsmaatreëls ten opsigte van rampe in die Wes-Kaap. As hierdie inligting ter tafel gelê word, behoort munisipaliteite oor die nodige kapasiteit te beskik om die koördinering van rampbeheermaatreëls te verbeter. Belangriker nog, dan kan hierdie rampe voorkom word, of die uitwerking daarvan kan ten minste verminder word, deur gepaste en volhoudende risikoverminderingsmaatreëls by hulle geïntegreerde ontwikkelingsplanne in te sluit.

Is munisipaliteite bereid om verhoudings met gemeenskappe op te bou deur middel van opvoedkundige … [Tyd verstreke.] (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)

[The transformation of local government has now hopefully reached its final stage, and in this way more people have been placed in a position to become involved in a more effective way in the problems of local government. We hope that the local government elections later this year, as well as the associated planning and delivery processes, will eventually bring the promise which our young democracy has shown since 1994 to fruition. [Interjections.] Those hon members must listen!

Of course a few of the building-blocks are still missing. What is particularly worrying, is the ability of the newly transformed municipalities to achieve the objectives that the Constitution and they have set themselves. We entrenched measures in the Constitution in terms of which municipalities have a development task. We have even agreed that these municipalities must set up integrated development plans linked to their budgets and those of other service providers, so that this can serve as a guide for the way in which this task must be performed. It is well known that some of these integrated development plans can still be improved. The chief executive officer of the Development Bank of Southern Africa, Dr Goldin, said recently that most of the development plans fall short as regards at least two factors, namely technical aspects and community involvement and participation aspects. He emphasised that communities are still not fully part of the planning process, in spite of all the policy directions and strategies that have been drafted and the planning that has been done.

Local economic development is still just a buzz word, and the formerly disadvantaged groups are still largely excluded from it. The lack of a structured relationship between the community and the municipalities was again recently singled out as a problem during the public hearings of the portfolio committee. To develop the capacity of institutions and people is the cornerstone of multi-sectoral development.

Several capacity problems in the functioning of existing municipalities have also come to light. One hopes that the future implementation of the megacity and other new forms of municipalities will to a great extent be able to solve these problems, particularly if they receive sufficient support from both the national and the provincial governments.

The seriousness of this task was recently emphasised by the disasters which were experienced in various parts of the country. It is a further cause for concern to read that the assistance provided as part of the emergency relief programme, did not always reach the disaster victims. What lesson can we learn from this for the future? Our entire approach to disaster management was placed under suspicion because of these events.

I asked the opposition parties earlier this year why they kick up such a fuss when veld fires in the Western Cape threaten the houses of the wealthy, but when shacks in squatter camps regularly burn down, this is greeted with a deafening silence on their part. The lack of co-ordination between the municipalities of the Cape Metropolitan area and the provincial government during these disasters was rudely exposed.

However, do we really know how serious the problem is as regards the regular occurrence of fires in the squatter camps? These people lose the roof over their heads, all their possessions and frequently also their lives. In this way unstable and fragmented communities develop.

Information is now emerging which will be able to throw more light on preventative measures in respect of disasters in the Western Cape. When this information is tabled, municipalities should have the necessary capacity to improve the co-ordination of disaster control measures. More importantly, these disasters can then be prevented, or at least the effects can be reduced, by including suitable and sustainable risk reduction measures in their integrated development plans.

Are municipalities prepared to develop relations with communities by means of educational … [Time expired.]]

Mrs G M BORMAN: Chair, Minister Mufamadi and hon members, at the outset I wish to thank our chairperson, the hon Yunus Carrim, for the sensitive way in which he includes all the political parties on our portfolio committee.

In its insatiable lust for power and its paranoid obsession with change, the ANC is thrusting the country into another round of municipal restructuring. This threatens to distance local government from the people, sideline provincial structures and burden ratepayers with further unnecessary increases. Whilst we sit in our commitees talking about restructuring, developmental government, municipal systems, public participation and all the rest, all that the people want is simple service delivery.

Meanwhile, the morale amongst employees is also at a low ebb. Business Day recently reported on a survey centred on work organisation, labour relation, service delivery and municipal structuring, and I quote:

Overall, the research findings present a workforce that is disappointed with local government’s performance, extremely concerned about job security and, at best, sceptical of the prospects of improvements through the unicity process.

Local government is in a state of systems paralysis. Almost half of South Africa’s 843 municipalities are in financial crisis, as my colleague has already said.

Municipalities owed a total of some R9 billion for rates and service charges as at May 2000, according to Minister Mufamadi. Some of the reasons given for this financial crisis - let the House just have a look at them again - are the costs of amalgamating formerly independent municipal structures into transitional municipalities, lack of human capacity, training of staff, lack of skills, low productivity, lack of budgetary discipline, unaffordable levels of service provision, lack of political will and systematic structure in collection of debts, corruption, misappropriation of funds, mismanagement of resources, lack of competition for jobs, overstaffing, affirmative action, retirement of skilled staff through retrenchments, and so on. If we had to set out to create a goon show, we could hardly have done it better. Let me focus on one tiny aspect which serves as a microcosm of the whole. I refer to the report of the local government training board presented to our portfolio committee.

The lack of skills and training I referred to earlier, and the bankrupt state of municipalities, say something about the desperate need for training. Now here we have a department set up to do just that and allocated R12 million. Actually in the presentation, they did not seem to know if it was R12 million or R9 million. But only R3 million gets spent, and municipalities do not have the capacity to do their work. Now we are going to take 843 municipalities and reduce them to some 284, and we approve of consolidating.

But do we have the capacity to manage much larger municipalities when we have failed so abysmally with smaller ones? Are we not about to make the same mistakes again, only on a bigger scale, as we overburden our municipalities with this prescriptive legislation that puts them all into some straitjacket? We are now at last moving to outsourcing and partnerships. The DP fully supports these initiatives provided they are conducted in a proper businesslike way.

Peter Dickson, in the Mail & Guardian, dated 26 May, writing about crooked councillors, revealed that in Port Elizabeth several long-serving councillors stood accused of failing to disclose their interests in companies doing business with the municipality. In the same article, Cosatu’s regional chair, expressing his concern about councillors backing outsourcing in order to profit, said that some councillors were encouraging outsourcing so that they got contracts through the back door. This is the calibre of public representative that ratepayers are paying to run our municipalities, at least the few who do the paying.

The new municipal systems Bill will address some of the problems, but, I fear, will create others. Municipalities will have to measure performance, involve the public in full paticipation, deliver services, prepare integrated development plans, prepare budgets in relation to integrated development plans, and so on. All this will require skills and training which we have already signally failed to manifest.

On a recent study tour to Australia with our portfolio committee … [Time expired.] [Applause.]

Dr S E M PHEKO: Chairperson, section 139 of the Constitution requires that provinces build capacity at local government level. Does the department have a list of municipalities which still require capacity-building? How much of the budget allocation has actually gone to capacity-building at local level? Recent floods have shown that the country must not be caught unprepared. The provinces and local councils must be equipped for disaster management. Has the department budgeted sufficiently for this?

Since the 1995 local government elections some provinces have invoked section 139 of the Constitution. Has the department taken measures to prevent similar cases happening again? The new local system will have to create strong and stable local political systems from the present chaos. Large-scale programmes are needed for the urgent provision of clean water, sanitation, sewerage, electricity, and refuse collection and disposal. The present inefficiency and corruption in municipal councils must be eradicated by employing qualified people, not people with mere political affiliation to the ruling party.

Demarcation in the rural areas may cause serious problems if traditional leaders are ignored. Demarcation of boundaries must be carefully handled in the areas which are under traditional leaders. Their authority must be clearly defined. The PAC supports the budget.

Chief M NONKONYANA: Chairperson and hon members, when we, the ANC, sought re-election through the second democratic election, we committed ourselves to working tirelessly to accelerate delivery in all areas, particularly in rural areas, amongst other things.

In line with our policy of reconstructing and developing this country, our President, Comrade Thabo Mbeki, in his first speech as the President of this country, said

The Government is now in a position to implement a rural development programme for the integrated development of the rural areas. This will bring together all Government departments and all spheres of government, including the traditional leaders.

In the past years, having inherited a system of local government which unfairly discriminated against the majority, particularly the rural masses, we committed ourselves to transforming local government to create and sustain humane, equitable and viable settlement. In doing so, we adopted a developmental local government committed to working with all citizens and groups within the community to find sustainable ways to meet their sound economic and material needs and to improve the quality of their lives.

Since this Government took over power from the violent apartheid government, it has demonstrated its commitment to improving the quality of life of the people living in rural areas by delivering in these areas as well. In all the annual reports of the relevant departments, one will see that there has been delivery in the rural areas as well, and the Department of Provincial and Local Government has played a key and critical role.

One will notice that the budget for this department has increased slightly this financial year. This is so because over and above the specific task mentioned by the hon the Minister and all my fellow comrades who have spoken before me, we are committed to accelerating service delivery to the people living in the rural areas, who more often than not are still living in squalid conditions.

Many rural areas in our country are not accessible by road at all, and even in those which are accessible the roads are in a poor state and the majority of the motor vehicles that are being used there are not roadworthy. For instance, as I speak the municipal road between Flagstaff and Mount Ayliff is in a very bad state, and the Umbandana River bridge can collapse at any moment, with disastrous consequences for our people. The road between Matatiele and Marie Zell High School was bad before the recent floods in the Eastern Cape, and is now worse. The road between Mount Frere and Sidwell is equally bad and the Tunxe River bridge has collapse and a step ladder is being used. We are committed to addressing these problems. The same position is prevailing in all the other provinces where there are rural areas.

In addition to the mammoth task, in drawing up a budget for this department we will need the business community, nationally and internationally, to assist the Government. The other area that this department will have to focus on during this financial year is, of course, the co-ordination and monitoring of service delivery in rural areas. For instance, where there is no electricity, it is very expensive for Telkom to install a telephone service. Clearly, both Telkom and Eskom must plan the delivery of their services jointly.

We, the members of the ANC, are of the view that it is now time for this department to facilitate an indaba to co-ordinate delivery in rural areas. Such and indaba, we believe, will produce a common vision and mission to deliver services in rural areas in a more co-ordinated and sustainable manner. The public representatives from the national, provincial and local spheres of government should take part in such a forum, so that all of us can form a united front sharing a common vision and a mission.

We believe that the development in the rural areas must be people driven. The people themselves must take part in the development of their own areas. The people must not only get jobs when there is delivery in their areas: they must also share in business ventures. We are aware that in the past some business enterprises have taken advantage of our rural communities. Some provide them with a poor and inferior quality of service, and some consultants frustrate us by enriching the rich, instead of assisting us in delivering to the poorest of the poor. Once bitten, twice shy.

The rural communities must work hand in glove with the Government. Together with them we must, and will, make sure that the ANC wins the envisaged local government elections and deploy councillors who will represent their interests.

Last but not least, the existing tension between our traditional leaders and our communities at local-government level must come to an end. Let us all be a nation at work, for a better life for all. [Applause.]

Miss S RAJBALLY: Chairperson, Minister, the MF hails the completion of the demarcation, so that the first truly nonracial, democratic election at local government level can take place on 1 November 2000. With the Masakhane campaign embracing the youths and the series of legislation designed to rectify the rates imbalances, together with the Local Government: Municipal Structures Act, South Africa is set for its next miracle, ie creating local government in every square metre in South Africa. However, care must be taken that the demarcation of boundaries does not fragment communities, especially in the areas where the NGOs are set up to serve the people.

Nevertheless, the flexible transformation process at local government level advocates a development of an adequate network of accessible and service- orientated departments that meet the diverse and intimate needs of our people. The action plan is to promote capacity-building and readdress the distribution of resources, using equitable criteria, to our citizens in the urban and rural areas. The participation of the community at local government will improve the channel of communication and maintain a good partnership or relationship, which will assist in removing constraints that hinders access to service delivery. Therefore, those who have opposed the new look embraced by local government are not for change. They want the retention of the status quo.

The MF finds it rather strange that the DP is placing adverts in the newspapers that are circulating in the former Indian areas, about Zimbabwe. In this local government election, the Indian community is not going to be hoodwinked by any ``swart gevaar’’ tactics. The MF supports the Minister for taking bold initiatives to restructure the local government to uplift South Africans at grass-roots level.

Mr Rajbansi, the MF leader, has pointed out repeatedly how the DP and the New NP competed with each other in Durban to trample the so-called non- whites, especially the Indian people, at the local government level. Our advice to the Minister is that in considering legislation, one has to acknowledge the effect of the evil Group Areas Act, which still remains to haunt us and has a negative effect on the market value of our properties.

The MF fully supports the Minister and his department in all the efforts to improve the quality of life of South Africans. We support the Vote. [Applause.]

Mr J M NGUBENI: Chairperson, hon members, the fundamental transformation of local government into a democratic, developmental and accountable component of the state is a major challenge to Government and South Africans at large. To achieve equal municipal service provision, local economic development and infrastructure development - especially in the rural communities - demands a commitment, to eradicate the imbalances created by colonial and apartheid forces.

The process of demarcation aims to reduce the number of municipalities. This will lead to the restructuring of municipalities into sustainable and economically viable entities. For us the demarcation process is an integral part of democratising primary rural local government. And it enables the rural and traditional communities to enjoy their right to freedom and development. Processes for transformation are often decontextualised and politicised for narrow political ambition, and this perpetuates suffering and unbearable conditions for the rural and traditional communities.

The ANC-led government is committed to ensuring the hastening of the delivery of basic services to all people, irrespective of race, gender, class or location. The apartheid regime created reserves for African people in mountains and barren land, to enforce ethnic divisions. It will, therefore, be suicidal and counter-revolutionary to oppose the process which is a lifeline to restoring the dignity and improving the social economic conditions of traditional leaders and rural communities.

Despite the magnitude and legacy of colonialism and apartheid, the department has embarked on a remarkable programme to ensure co-operative governance between traditional leadership and elected public representatives at local level. The fulfilment of the provision of section 212 of the Constitution and subsequent legislation bears testimony to the commitment by the Government to accommodate traditional institutions within the new democratic dispensation. The budget for traditional affairs has been increased by 42% in nominal terms. This will enable the department to create a conducive atmosphere to meet the challenges facing the traditional leadership and its institution.

The department must also be commended for the implementation of a programme with respect to the constitutional recognition of the Khoisan community as vulnerable indigenous people. The National Khoisan Forum was established for a proper consultation process, among other things. The new coat of arms bears testimony that the ANC-led Government genuinely responds to and recognises all communities.

The National House of Traditional Leaders, despite their understandable teething problems, is now geared towards being a respectful institution capacitated to engage in processes of policy formulation, influencing the legislative processes and co-ordinating provincial activities. All these processes are genuine attempts at restoring the dignity and pride of traditional leaders. The President is also currently dealing with all the contentious issues raised by traditional leaders. This is a clear demonstration, and it serves as a commitment to accommodate and allay fears and suspicions around these complex issues.

We are approaching local government elections. Some apartheid agents, who abused, neglected and divided the traditional leaders, will be seen posing for TV cameras in royal kraals, with the sole intention of buying votes, since they are locked in the past practices that African traditional institutions are there to be exploited. Such agents owe their allegiance and respect only to the queen or other European traditional leaders.

On the nature of the institution of traditional leadership and its compatibility with democracy, particularly regarding the role of women and the youth within the traditional institution, it is inconceivable that women and the youth should be disadvantaged by the current cultural biases of the institutions. Customs are not carved in stone. Societies all over the world adapt their customs as dictated by social circumstances.

Secondly, the relation between traditional leaders and democratically elected representatives is central to the debate of transforming institutions. Minister Mufamadi sums it up correctly when he says that it would be irresponsible to allow a situation in which traditional and rural communities have to choose between councillors and traditional leaders.

Co-operative governance and properly defined functions and roles will enable the co-existence of both primary and local government structures and the institution of traditional leadership. In that way, war on poverty can be declared. The fight to deal with backlogs in the infrastructure development can be accelerated and the rest will be a better life for rural and traditional communities.

Mr C AUCAMP: Chairperson and Mr Minister, the hon the Minister informed this House today that the draft Bill on the establishment of the Commission for the Promotion and Protection of the Rights of Cultural, Religious and Linguistic Communities, as stipulated in section 185, has been presented to Cabinet. I want to devote my speech today mainly to this aspect of the department’s work.

As a whole, I can be positive on this matter. The process of the drafting of the Bill was given a character of inclusiveness, with a workshop in September last year attended by 40 role-players from, inter alia, parties represented in this House, and by the decision of the conference the next day to establish a technical committee to finalise the Bill, originally drafted by the CSIR. Reports received from members of this committee stated that it performed its duties with enthusiasm and dignity, with no ulterior political influence on its work.

In his speech today, the hon the Minister said something very important. He said that, with the adoption of this Bill, ``the pathway to stability will be firmly built’’. In saying this, this ever-smiling Minister gave me reason to smile as well. The Minister acknowledged that stability in South Africa is directly connected with the way in which the aspirations of minorities are met. The AEB regards the section 185 commission as one of the ways to reach this important goal.

The other side of the coin is that, if this commission is a sort of dummy commission, something merely symbolic and without teeth, it will serve as an indicator that lip service is being paid to the rights of cultural, linguistic and religious communities, and this will definitely be to the detriment of stability in South Africa, as happened elsewhere in the world, where this crucial issue was not adequately addressed in multi-cultural societies.

Bearing this in mind, I want to make the following comments. This is a commission of rights, not individual rights, but, as the Constitution so clearly stipulates, the rights of communities. These are communities defined by a specific cultural, linguistic and religious character. The work of this commission will be impossible if the concept of rights of communities or minorities, if you prefer, is not defined and established by legislation. What South Africa urgently needs is a Bill of collective rights, in addition to the Bill of individual rights. There are ample examples throughout the world.

This must be borne in mind. My right to speak my own language and my right to worship God according to my religious beliefs are individual rights, as stipulated in section 30 of the Constitution. Section 31 and, of course, section 185 which is built on section 31, goes one step further, especially in subsection (b). It discusses the right ``to form, join and maintain cultural, religious and linguistic associations and other organs of civil society’’. Therefore, we need further development in the definition of these collective rights and accompanying legislation. The AEB welcomes the section 185 commission as an instrument to develop exactly this.

Further, a welcome step forward in the draft Bill is the acknowledgement of cultural councils for communities that desire them. I want to make a plea today that the Bill must open the option for these cultural councils to perform certain functions in the sphere of the relevant cultural community, which are presently performed by Government.

Possible functions are, inter alia, some of those presently performed by the Department of Arts, Culture, Science and Technology, the Department of Welfare, and even the Department of Education. To do this, in a sensible way, it is of paramount importance that section 38(2) of the draft Bill must be altered to make provision for a proportional cut of the state Budget, to empower the councils to perform these relevant functions.

A further point is that we must make sure that this commission really serves the purpose originally intended in the drafting of the Constitution. In this regard, I want to quote from a statement of the President of the Constitutional Court. I am not going to mention the case now, but he said:

The SA Constitution was the product of the multiparty negotiations. It was permissible to take background information into account, as part of the context … In countries where the Constitution was the supreme law, it was not unusual for courts to have the circumstances existing at the time of adoption of the Constitution in considering its provisions.

Remember that the inclusion of sections 31 and 185 in the Constitution was part of a negotiated settlement between the ANC and, mainly, the FF in 1994, to get everyone on board. Special emphasis should be placed on the aspirations of the communities they represented, now also represented by the AEB and other parties in this House. This fact should be reflected in the composition of the commission.

Daar moet so ‘n paar goeie Boere ook in die kommisie dien. Dit is wat dit beteken. [A few good Boere must also serve on the commission. That is what this means.]

The draft Bill is by far not the final answer to the legitimate aspirations of the people that other members and I represent in this House. The AEB, however, regards it as a positive start and has been positively involved in the process so far. It will, therefore, play a constructive role in the process ahead.

In the last instance, as we are dealing here with the rights of religious communities, I want to make a plea to members to be more sensitive in this regard. Yesterday, a member referred to Calvinism and to the doctrine of predestination as some kind of eternal doom on certain people, predominantly on the basis of race. This is absolutely untrue. What Calvinism really means is: Soli deo Gloria - The sovereignty of God over all spheres of life. And what about the doctrine of predestination? Nobody knows the names and addresses of the elect. Therefore, the last and final command of Christ was: ``Preach the Gospel to all the nations.’’ That is what it means. [Time expired.]

Mr B M SOLO: Chairperson, hon Minister, hon members of the House …

… kuyabonakala ukuba siya kufa sifundisa. Ngamanye amaxesha kuthiwa, Benamehlo nje ababoni, beneendlebe nje abeva.'' Kodwa ezinye izinto sizithabatha kubo. [... it is quite clear that some people will never learn. Sometimes it is said:They have eyes, but they will not see, and they have ears, but they will not hear.’’ Yet we got some of these things from them.]

A lot has already been said. I would not like to spoil the good statement made by the progressive parties and those that see the need for transformation. On the other hand, we need to correct distortions of facts so as to save ourselves from confusion.

Basically my task here is to respond, probably to those who are really not clued up or geared to be part of this change. I find my task to be very, very difficult because there is very little that is new from what they have been saying, and even less that is of substance. Really, my task is very, very difficult. How does one respond to nothing? Because there is nothing that they offered this House. Yet they know and they have agreed and said yes, there are problems. Instead, when we address those problems, they play around as if they were children dancing in some nightclub somewhere. [Interjections.]

Mr G A J GROBLER: Is dit ‘n grappie? [Is that a joke?]

Mr B M SOLO: That is correct. It is a grappie [joke], because that member is a joke.

Therefore it has become necessary to deal with some of the issues that were raised by some opposition parties. There is really no way anyone could deny the fact that there is a need for change and a need for restructuring in order to advance the democratic constitution. Hence, today we are presenting a budget that attempts to achieve that.

The hon Mr Selfe of the DP has bitterly complained about viabilty, capacity, resources and all these things. He is probably correct. But it is precisely for that reason that we need to demarcate and change the existing system of local government in this country. Of course, I thought he would probably come with viable solutions, instead he reflected a scenario of doom.

We are all human beings and we are all geared for a better life. We all want to be secure. We all need basic necessities that a human being can live on. The reason that we are demarcating boundaries in the manner we are doing is precisely because we want to ensure that those communities and institutions that have the relevant resources are able to pool them together to ensure a better life for all.

I am not going to deal with all the other comments that were raised by other parties. I do not think it will be necessary for me to do that. I just want to look at this issue that has been raised repeatedly, and that is the whole question of the property rates Bill. I do not know what is funny about people acquiring information wherever they can get it. I think that this is part of the new system we have introduced in this country. There is no information that is hidden. No one would be arrested for accessing information from wherever one gets it, including the Internet. I think this is more advantageous to the DP because they have been provided with these resources and skills long before the new democracy came into being. I think they should appreciate the fact that this Government allows everyone to get information, even, at some point, from dead people who are six feet underground and, who probably, might have some information.

I think there is a lot of euphoria around the Bill which is in the process of being drafted. We all know the procedures. It is the department that starts the whole process. I do not know what could be wrong with the department making that Bill available. The department makes that Bill available because it wants hon members’ participation and to make sure that they are part and parcel of this process. In terms of the procedures - I do not want to stand here and lecture as if I am a teacher, because we ourselves know what they are - once the Bill has been submitted to Cabinet

• I think the Minister can substantiate this - it is surely submitted to the portfolio committee, where most of the parties are represented. That is the time when we can apply our minds correctly and raise all these issues that are being raised here.

I see only one thing around this debate on the property rates Bill. Because there are some form of elections that are coming in six months’ time, people are beginning to start electioneering here in Parliament, as we have seen what has happened between the DP and the New NP. We now see a new ``swart gevaar’’ coming in the form of the property rates Bill. We need to understand that we are not in the game of robbing Peter to pay Paul. What we are looking at in this country is to ensure that we pool all resources together and that all communities are afforded the opportunity to live a better life.

Finally, looking into the whole debate as presented here, it is my view that this budget should not be viewed from a point of view of a narrow, selfish interest. For any society to live a prosperous life, something has to be done. This budget should be seen as a step in the right direction. It is an enabling budget that seeks to establish normality, uniformity and a resource base, all of which are an attempt to ensure a better life for all.

I am of the opinion that one of the major problems, that has created a number of social problems, such as homelessness, landlessness and diseases, is the way government has been run in the past, which is a fact we all know. [Time expired.] [Applause.]

The MINISTER FOR PROVINCIAL AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT: Chairperson, firstly I would like to thank all those who participated in this debate, for their insightful contributions. I think there is a lot that can be learned from the contributions of many of the participants in this debate.

The hon Mr Selfe has accused us of drafting the property rates Bill in secrecy. He is of the view that it is this secrecy which gives rise to what he calls ``predictable panic’’. He further directly asked the question whether the Katz Commission was consulted.

In response to all these I want to say the following. On 5 November 1998, a workshop was held with representatives from municipalities and other key organisations. Approximately 250 delegates from municipalities all over the country attended the workshop. The delegates from the municipalities were mainly finance officers. In addition, the following organisations were present: Salga, the South African Institute of Valuers, the South African Property Owners Association, the SA Council for Valuers and the Institute of Municipal Finance. Comments were received from all the major participants, including the city of Cape Town, Durban Metro and the Eastern Metropolitan Council: Johannesburg. The Department of Finance has also been involved in a number of bilateral meetings, which included the participation of a representative from the Katz Commission. If this is the hon Mr Selfe’s understanding of secrecy, we certainly do not have the same understanding of the word. The question that obviously arises is: Why this Bill? I think it will be important to point out the following. Firstly, the Bill does not seek to give local government powers that that sphere does not have. The power for local government to source revenue in this way is an original power which derives from section 229 of the Constitution. But what is the reality that we have today?

We have, today, substantial diversity in property tax practice throughout the country. There is a lack of national legislation on property tax and this has resulted in a cumbersome system of property rating. As I said, section 229(2) of the Constitution states that the power of the municipality to impose rates on property may be regulated by national legislation. I realise that the instinctive reaction of many parties is to oppose that, when we want to introduce this legislation. But I do realise also that some parties, over time, have achieved an element of a return to sobriety and they are beginning to say that perhaps it is not as adverse as they thought it was before.

I think we will agree that a situation such as the one that I have painted, requires to be reformed. That is precisely what this Bill is seeking to achieve. One cannot on one hand decry the fact that municipalities have a weak fiscal base and, at the same time, when we make an attempt to introduce a law which will improve municipalities’ fiscal base, then one says that that is also wrong. Where is local government going to get its revenue from? I do not believe that it will get it from the sky. It has to get it from somewhere. Of course, together, we will have to make sure that we minimise the adverse effects of the final legislation which will be passed by this House and not just by the ANC, as some people appear to be trying to suggest.

Rev Zondi is worried about what he called ``dangerous fires’’ that are raging. Of course, as a reverend, he tried to cast himself in the role of a prophet, and not just a prophet, but a prophet of doom. [Laughter.] He did not seem to be aware of the discussions which have been taking place between the traditional leaders and the president of this country. If he was aware, I suggest that he has made no effort to discover what actually happened at those meetings or, at worst, he exhibited no thirst for precision. [Laughter.] I suppose that is the stuff that prophets of doom are made of. [Interjections.] I want to say that everything that he said about this issue is really based on unverified intelligence and nobody should take action on the basis of what he said.

Regarding the hon Mr Van Deventer … [Interjections] … however he pronounces his name. That hon member cannot expect me to be able to pronounce it in that way. He used, firstly, this occasion to quarrel with the DP. I do not want to enter that fray because I do not know why they are quarrelling. [Laughter.] However, he complained about the current restructuring of municipal boundaries. I perfectly understand why he is complaining, because the outcome of that process will be a new world - a world different from the world that his party forced us to live in for many years. [Interjections.] We are committed to changing the legacy that his party bequeathed to our country. I am not surprised that he boldly said that his party would not support this budget. That does not alter the fact that progress will be made out of these deliberations. [Applause.] If he wants to remain standing on the banks of the Rubicon, let him stay there.

The hon Chief Mtirara said that the way in which our department is allocating its budget is biased in favour of urban areas. He said this notwithstanding what I had said earlier on in my speech. If it was not for the fact that he is a traditional leader, I was going to make sure that he does not remain immune to the hazards of this other occupation that he has chosen. Perhaps, I must give him a dose of it. [Laughter.] I will come back to him later. [Laughter.]

The hon Dr Mulder said to this esteemed House that the technical committee which was established for purposes of overseeing the process of drafting the Bill to do with section 185 of the Constitution has been moving at a very slow pace. I want to inform this House that his party was represented. [Interjections.] I am not saying that it was represented in the technical committee, but I am saying that it was represented in the conference which took a decision that this committee should be established. By contrast to the posture he has taken, all members would have heard what Mr Aucamp said and I want to commend him for his display of religious adherence to the truth. [Laughter.]

The hon Mr Ditshetelo of the UCDP said that the electorate was so ignorant that they would not be able to identify with the concept of wall-to-wall municipal governance. If there was any truth in what he said about the ignorance of the electorate, I think the majority of them would have voted for his party. [Laughter.]

The hon Mrs Borman decried what she called the ANC’s obsession with change. I think our quest for change stands in stark contrast to the DP’s resistance to change. [Interjections.] She went on to suggest that the municipal restructuring that is currently under way is an imposition by the ANC. I think if she tries to understand the Constitution, which this House wrote, she will then be able to realise that this restructuring is a constitutional requirement. In her intervention, she made constant reference to the Mail & Guardian and Business Day. My advice to the hon member is that she must also try to look at the world outside the pages of those newspapers. [Laughter.]

With regard to the transitional funding, I think, also, a few things have been said which create a wrong impression - the impression being that we started late with the process of determining the cost of transition. There are a number of contingent factors which had to be taken into account and they include the fact that we had to obtain greater clarity as to the municipal entities that we are going to have arising out of the demarcation process. So, had we made estimates which did not take this into account, that would have been a thumbsuck. I think by now members would know that, unlike the New NP which ruled this country for 48 years, we do not rule the country on the basis of thumbsucks.

I must add that the current Division of Revenue Bill, already approved by this House, provides for a restructuring of grants as follows: R300 million in the first year, R350 million in the second year, and R400 million in the third year. These amounts will be revised and increased. What we are now working on is additional transitional funds which must be determined. Otherwise, on the basis of what I have said, one can see that an initial tranche has been set aside by way of provision for this transition.

Once more, I really want to thank all who participated in this debate for the spirit in which they said what they had to say. [Applause.]

Debate concluded. APPROPRIATION BILL

Debate on Vote No 12 - Government Communication and Information System:

The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY: Mr Chairperson, this last Minister is going to be impossible to follow. Maybe next time Sydney had better come after me.

Our march to a better life requires that each and every South African should put shoulders to the wheel - all of us as partners in transforming ours into a society that cares. We must know our rights and exercise them, in the same measure as we take on our collective responsibility to build South Africa into a nation of our dreams.

A fundamental prerequisite for this is that South Africans, rich and poor, black and white, should be able to access information necessary for them to live their lives to the full in an increasingly complex world. From the boardrooms to the coalface of production, from the leafy suburbs to the dusty roads of ghettoes and villages, from the greenery under irrigation to the bare earth washed raw by years of soil erosion, we all need information that we can use. Such is the task of communication in general and Government communication in particular. We, therefore, celebrate this third Budget Vote of the Government Communication and Information System, keenly aware of the immense challenges facing us. We know that we cannot as yet claim that information is a right fully exercised.

However, we dare celebrate because the difficult journey has started. As we review the past year, and set out tasks for the coming one, we can say with confidence that, steadily but surely, more and more members of the public are being drawn into the information cycle. More and more people are gaining direct access to information they deserve. More and more South Africans are gaining an understanding of the social dynamics in the country.

What gives us this confidence, and what is the environment in which we have to conduct our work? Research carried out by GCIS on behalf of Cabinet, and other surveys, during the financial year 1999-2000, consistently point to a broadly optimistic outlook among South Africans. There is greater appreciation of the Government’s policies and activities, and a markedly positive view of the general political situation in the country. Included in the key feedback of such research is the deeply rooted conviction among the majority that Government can only succeed if it works in partnership with the people. Partnership for development has also been the principle guiding the programmes of Government communications. We fully appreciate that we are one among the thousands of purveyors of informaton on social developments in our country. As such, we take particular interest in the quality of mediums of discourse.

The hearings of the Human Rights Commission on racism in the media represented a critical element of the self-examination that all such mediums require. Let me restate that while we viewed the decision of the HRC to conduct these hearings as necessary and correct, we fully respected their independence. Thus, as Government, we called for the HRC and the media to reach consensus on the modalities of the hearings, an outcome that was attained in spite of the thousand voices of condemnation.

It is heartening that the introspection generated by these hearings has given a spur to the efforts of the SA National Editors’ Forum and other media organisations to deal with this matter of racism as part of the process of transforming our media and improving the quality, integrity and credibility of the profession. It is our hope that the final report of the HRC will set in motion processes that should, in the final analysis, give South Africa the media it deserves.

Needless to say, such is our partnership with the media that none of us can succeed without the other. Thus GCIS has taken it upon itself to continually improve the service it renders to the media. In our co- ordination of Government media liaison work, we have striven to ensure that Ministers and officials are available to assist with information required and to avail themselves for briefings and interviews. Gradually, what had in the past been a litany of complaints is becoming an exception rather than the norm.

In addition to regular press breakfasts and other ministerial briefings, we are upgrading our news service to community media into an on-line Government service. With the installation of video-conferencing facilities, the space and time between the two capitals has become that much smaller, and the lives of journalists that much easier. Besides the general improvement in the Government’s website, we are also proud of the innovations that have been introduced, including live video and text transmissions of major activities, involving particularly the President.

But it is a matter of course that improving on what exists, in terms of mediums of communication, cannot address the massive information needs of all of society. Clearly, communities require not only the means to receive information, but also the right to impart their own news and views. It is in this context that we have intensified the efforts towards the establishment of a Media Development and Diversity Agency.

Despite some changes with regard to media ownership, the voices, particularly print media, remain in a few hands. Despite greater black and female participation in decision-making, the country’s media still does not adequately cater for the multiplicity of information needs within our vast country. The emergence of community voices in radio needs to be sustained and spread more widely, including into print. The initiative towards the MDDA, headed by an interdepartmental steering committee, has gathered momentum, with widespread consultations involving key stakeholders, media owners, community media representatives, NGOs, editors, the advertising industry and regulatory bodies, amongst other.

Among the areas of consensus which have been identified and are contained in the position paper soon to be released for public comment, are the following. Firstly, the setting up of the MDDA is in the interest of our democracy and the existing medium. Such a body should have an arm’s-length relationship with Government as well as public and private media houses. Secondly, the Government, the private media sector and international donors should mobilise resources to contribute to media diversity, and this should include funds, training, print and distribution facilities. Thirdly, the MDDA should be a body with the necessary authority, and should have a small structure with the best systems of corporate governance. Fourthly, its operation should be transparent and it should provide assistance on the basis of the broad criteria set out in the policy. Lastly, the MDDA should not interfere in matters of media contempt.

The GCIS is finalising research into detailed funding possibilities, and in this area some common ground has been found with those that have been consulted, including that we would avoid compulsory levies, given the commitment on the part of the private sector to contribute; that all other funds in Government dealing with media development would be amalgamated into the MDDA process; that a hierarchy of forms of assistance should be devised, including part subsidies, grants and soft loans; and that the ratio of administrative expenditure to disbursements should not exceed 20:80. We intend to complete this process in the 2001-02 financial year.

So, at last, South Africa can take another giant step towards true freedom of expression, the right to information and the possibility for millions to be heard. However, ensuring that the people have access to information is not a matter merely of freedom of expression; it is also about good governance. After all, government is about the regulation of social activity by elected representatives in partnership with the people themselves. It is in this context that the GCIS is at the head of a major initiative to bring Government closer to the people in the form of multipurpose community centres or one-stop Government centres. Working with virtually all the departments and a number of parastatals, a national co- ordinating structure has been established and three MPCCs have been launched.

By the end of the 2001-02 financial year each district of the country should have one such centre providing Government services such as information, welfare, home affairs, small business advice and health services. In such a centre, public information terminals, as well as computers, telephones and fax machines in a telecentre will also be provided, including in the most remote areas of the country. Indeed, through this effort we shall not only be able to consolidate community life, but also ensure that the latest technology is employed to fight poverty and ensure access to information and resources.

If anything, the enthusiasm of communities where such launches have taken place is itself confirmation that we are on the right course. But major undertakings of this nature bring with them major challenges. These include training, ensuring that departments operate in an integrated manner and commitment from departments to provide efficient services, as well as sustainability and maintenance. We are addressing these issues and we urge that hon members take it upon themselves to assist with the monitoring of these centres. We are confident that, through co-operation among the three spheres of government - which has characterised the centre so far launched, through the reallocation of staff and equipment by the departments, and through a partnership with the private sector organised into the private sector consortium, and with whom we will be holding a special workshop in July, we shall be able to achieve both the quantity and the quality of services envisaged.

The programme in our growing partnership with African languages and community radio will improve the contact between Government and those citizens otherwise bypassed in the normal course of public discourse. This is what we mean by information for development. But we are also intensely aware that bettering the lives of the poor requires a partnership between our country and the international community of invetors, sports persons, traders, cultural workers, tourists and others.

It is, therefore, a matter of critical importance that we join hands as South Africans to promote our country abroad. After the decision of Cabinet on this matter, a project manager was appointed in the GCIS to bring together line functions such as Foreign Affairs, Trade and Industry, Finance, Home Affairs, Tourism and Sport, as well as Satour and Investment SA, in a major integrated drive to develop and promote the brand, South Africa. This project team will work under an international marketing council chaired by the Minister of Foreign Affairs, which, in addition to Government bodies, will include advisers from the private sector. The Minister will soon be announcing members of the council, who will help build a strong country partnership, blending creativity, experience, vision and drive to position our country where it belongs as a prime tourist and investment destination, as a trading partner and as a core workers with others in building a better world.

I am certain that in its work, the International Marketing Council will interact with hon members to ensure that we join hands as ambassadors of a country that possesses the ingredient to succeed, and as communicators who portray the country as it is, rather than what it should not be. I suppose we all agree that the recent visits of our President to Europe and the Americas again confirmed South Africa’s and the President’s own standing in world affairs. The challenges? How we work together to build on these achievements. This is a challenge about our self-esteem as a people; it is about our national identity; it is about our pride as South Africans. In this regard, the concrete achievements that we made together within South Africa play a critical role.

Yet we cannot underestimate the function of national symbols. It is, therefore, a matter of great pride that GCIS was intimately involved in the development of the coat of arms in partnership with other departments and Design South Africa. Out of this process emerged a crest that is emerging, along with our national flag, as a symbol of national unity. I trust that in the not-too-distant future these walls, our streets, factories, schools and homes will resound to the sound of !ke e /xarra //ke, unity in diversity. [Applause.]

For Government, the coat of arms is more than just about symbolism. Together with the Department of Public Service and Administration, the GCIS has started the process of ensuring that the introduction of the new coat of arms goes hand in hand with the regeneration of the spirit and the practice of Batho Pele, putting people first.

Members will have realised that most of the projects we have referred to involve more than just the GCIS, but a host of departments in joint effort. The coat of arms, international marketing, multipurpose centres and others place the GCIS at the core face of the re-engineering of Government for integrated planning and implementation. The same applies to major transversal campaigns such as those around HIV/Aids, voter education, Y2K awareness and the Arms and Investment Procurement Package.

One of the critical ways in which the GCIS provides leadership and ensures integrated governance, is through the formulation of Government’s communication strategy. The clusters of departmental communicators in individual departments are then meant to develop subsidiary strategies, using the national strategy as the framework. This process, introduced only last year, has obviously not gone smoothly. To start with, Government as a whole is grappling with the theory and practice of integrated governance. Other problems faced include the capacity of individual departmental communicators, resources allocated to communications and access of some communicators to management planning processes.

The majority of departments have restructured in line with Comtas’ recommendation and prepared their own strategies, and training continues to improve the quality of the output. We are confident that, working with directors-general and Ministers, we will ensure that communication receives the attention it deserves, in the interest of good governance.

The GCIS is also working with provincial communicators regarding training and development of communication strategies. Progress has been made in setting up a national training infrastructure for communicators. This includes the establishment of a standard generating body, a quality assurance body, a database of service providers, a national skills audit and the running of courses. At the same time, the GCIS is improving on its track record of rendering excellent design, print and audio-visual production services.

Of the three art works that were presented to Cabinet with regard to the new coat of arms, one of them was by a person who works for the GCIS, which demonstrated to us the quality of people who are working for the GCIS. The bulk-buying approach has in some instances resulted in as much as 30% discount in TV advertising and 10% on print. In order to play the role expected of it, the GCIS has had go through intense transformation. Primary in this is the project management approach, which affords the GCIS the capacity to provide integrated multimedia services to our clients.

About 20% of the staff have been trained in the project management approach. In almost all respects, the GCIS has broadly achieved levels of representation reflective of the demographics of the country. We have also built mutually beneficial relations with our counterparts in SADC, India, the UK and in the new Pan-African News Agency initiative.

These then are some of the activities of the GCIS. What we present to members in commending this budget is, certainly, not brick and mortar. But it is about the spiritual sustenance without which reconstruction and development will be a wish beyond the horizon. Ours is a slow and painstaking task of contributing to the building of a nation, inspired by the civic duty to become active participants in social change and moved by the passion to see South Africa succeed.

We know too well that information is one of the critical weapons in the fight against poverty. For millions of people, especially in the far-flung villages of our country, information on health matters, bursaries and welfare grants, to quote but a few examples, is literally a matter of life and death - the dividing line between opportunity and a wretched existence, between helplessness and hope.

If, through its efforts, the GCIS has made the slightest contribution to this endeavour, we would be assured that we have played our part. For this, I wish to thank the Secretariat of the GCIS, in particular the CEO, Mr Joel Netshitenzhe, and the rest of the staff for their commitment to the profession in the service of the people. I also wish to thank the portfolio committee, whose advice and critical scrutiny has spurred us on towards the excellence to which we aspire. [Applause.]

Mr N N KEKANA: Mr Chairperson, we should all agree, from what the Minister has said, that it is clear that the GCIS is really doing a wonderful job. I hope that the DP also agrees with that view.

I believe in grown-up politics: these are not my words, but the words of the Leader of the Opposition in an article published in The Star newspaper yesterday. I think it is not enough for the hon Tony Leon to believe in grown-up politics. He has to be responsible and understand the nature of politics. Leadership in politics is not about listening to the echo of one’s voice. It is about being responsible to one’s own actions and deeds.

The majority of black columnists like Mr Khathu Mamaila, whom the DP accuses of sunshine journalism, believe in South Africa. They believe in the winning brand of South Africa as a success story. By giving credit to Government’s achievements and criticising its shortcomings, these writers are being constructive about their country. The ANC does not believe in praise-singing journalism. We welcome well-informed and constructive criticism from the media and other opinion-makers.

This dynamic relationship with the media assists us to reflect properly on our current situation and focus accurately. Even in business, there is something called forecasting as an attempt to foretell the growth of the economy. The DP must mirror this forward-looking approach by economists. Unforunately, economists in their forecasting consider some of the negative utterences of the DP. Political stability in any country is the most important consideration by bussines and investors. Investors consider any indication of political instability, real or unfounded, in a very serious light, because of their stakes in our economy.

The Leader of the Opposition must grow up if he is to engage in real politics. International politics is not simply about what one discusses with one’s friends. Dinner- table talk is not the correct barometer to measure the mood of the public and, therefore, this cannot guide one’s political messaging. There are better methods of reading the mood of the people, their fears and aspirations. Government relies on its own surveys and other opinion-makers’ research to gauge the temperature in the country.

We should thank the GCIS for introducing this scientific approach to governance, and not rely on the voices and opinions in the wilderness. The Leader of the Opposition and his small party must grow up to the fact that they are running the country down by spreading lies and an inaccurate account of the state of our country. The DP and its leadership have nothing positive to say about the postapartheid Government. To them, the post-1994 era is negative and doomed to fail. The DP does not believe in South Africa.

Their leadership puts self-interest and their party’s interests first, without due regard to social interest. The DP leadership behaves like young kids who have no sense of responsibility. They demand sweets and pocket money, even when this goes beyond the household budget. They are prepared to hang the country’s dirty linen in public and make obscure demands that are devoid of reality. They speak in forked tongues, calling for investments and yet preaching doom and gloom about South Africa.

Their attitude to Africa is not different from colonialists and imperialists, who raped our continent of its mineral resources and yet called us the dark continent. [Applause.] The Zimbabwe debacle has laid bare the negative current that is flowing from some South Africans. They are posturing an attitude representing a backward tendency that has no interest in the wellbeing of the country. Fortunately, they are a small, vocal minority. But they should not be ignored.

They use dinner-table talk to analyse and whisper to economists and journalists a negative picture of postapartheid South Africa. This negative perception, created by those who oppose transformation, is echoed through media reports and thus becomes the dominant view in society. This, in turn, is reflected in the attitude of the international organisations who ask the kind of questions that they ask. This is a reflection of this negative attitude, and creates uncertainty.

Despite this vocal chorus, led by the DP, opinion polls continue to reflect South Africa in a positive light. Last November, Markinor’s poll and that conducted by the HSRC found a more positive view of the sociopolitical situation from the South African population and business. There is, indeed, a positive mood in and great optimism about the future of the country. The challenge is to harness this positive mood and brand the country correctly. The message that we send as South Africans should portray a picture of hope. We should be a working nation which is able to brave even the harshest of storms.

We must remain focused on our key objectives of ensuring that South Africa is a success story for all. We need to believe in South Africa and have confidence in our leadership. It is, thus, important for us to focus on the constructive criticisms that emanates from commentators that are genuinely concerned about the future of the country.

I think that Government should improve on its communication strategy. There are more accomplishments reflected in the way Government is improving the quality of lives of South Africans. There are bold steps taken by Government to create a clear and predictable environment for investments and economic growth in the country.

Government has instilled confidence in the security forces, to turn them into fighters of crime and violence in the country. Government has managed to contain the terrorism that engulfed the Western Cape in the past year. Crime in the major cities has stabilised and dramatic criminal acts by organised syndicates have been stamped out. Decisive action has been taken to deal with corrupt elements within the Public Service.

Yet, despite these success stories that are even reflected in independent research, Government departments seem not to have found a way of communicating the achievements of their line functions very well. They appear to be reluctant to advertise and praise the work of spirited and dedicated public servants who are working tirelessly to make South Africa work. We cannot simply rely on once-in-a-while ministerial or parliamentary briefings for communicating major Government achievements.

Ministers are newsmakers, because of the responsibility they hold in society. Every movement by a Minister is newsworthy. Every word that is said publicly by a Minister is news. The challenge is how to simplify these actions and messages and make the public identify with Government achievements and challenges. In Canada Ministers of Government use question time and motions in parliament as a platform of communication. After every major address in Parliament, our Ministers must be available to field questions immediately.

There are many radio stations in the country that are running actuality news programmes in different languages. They are constantly searching for comments from Ministers as newsmakers. We need to cut the gatekeepers who prevent Ministers and heads of departments from communicating with journalists and opinionmakers. Media liaison personnel should have greater influence in programmes and strategies of departments. They should not simply be conveyor belts of a finished product designed by others within the department.

The success of the parliamentary briefing shows that we have a country that is hungry for information. There is a need for messages to be packaged in a simpler form, with content that is easily understood. The positive outcome of messages distributed through radio and leaflets should not be taken for granted.

Television news is not the only platform for communicating with the public. In fact, television news is less about content and more about appearance and looks. Viewers often remember more about what one look like and less about the messages communicated. However, the SABC should also create a platform for more actuality programmes on television when matters of national importance are discussed in an intertaining manner. We need to combat the negative sceptics and demonstrate the reality of our situation in South Africa.

We are recognised internationally as a country that defeated the evils of apartheid. We have demonstrated through two successful elections that our democracy is embedded in our people. This brand of resilience and determination must be reflected in all communities, promoted nationally and sold internationally.

We call on Mr Tony Leon and his DP to be constructive and believe in South Africa. He must believe in South Africa the way he believes in the cricket or rugby team. He should not run down the country. The DP and other reactionary forces against transformation are seeking to derail, reverse, delay and in the end, prevent fundamental transformation of our society. We can never allow them to succeed.

What the country needs is national consensus on issues affecting our lives. Constructive criticism is welcome, not complaints and DP hallucinations. The DP often calls on our Government to run the country by the wishes and demands of the market. They say that our Government should handle domestic and international issues simply by the mood and deeds of the currency speculators. No, this is a wrong approach to politics. We refuse to listen to that. [Time expired.] [Applause.]

Ms M SMUTS: Chairperson, the overwhelming sentiment one feels at this time towards the GCIS is sympathy. I extend my condolences to Mr Netshitenzhe and his staff, but that sympathy is not extended to the hon the Minister in the Presidency, from whence all the trouble flows. I think that he must bear part of the blame for what Mr Kekana’s party leader is doing to South Africa’s image.

It is only three months since the GCIS reported to us on the research to which the hon the Minister has referred. It showed, apart from the optimism, that a clear and positive perception had been established regarding the President as ``strong, firm, decisive, articulate and in control’’. [Interjections.] That was three months ago. But that very same articulate President became mute when his next-door neighbour in Zimbabwe unleashed land-grabbing electoral stormtroopers. [Interjections.]

The one-time philosophy king who could hold all of us spellbound when he stood at this podium began writing pseudoscientific letters to a fellow President which no communication service in the world can sell or explain away. And as if those public relations disasters were not enough, the governing party has insulted the media, without whom the GCIS cannot fulfil its basic mandate of informing the public about Government policies and activities.

The GCIS itself, appropriately, took a nonparticipative stance in respect of the Human Rights Commission’s racism inquiry, notwithstanding its proposed work in media diversity and transformation, but not so the ANC. The ANC submission was not about media racism at all: it was about the bad press which the hon the President has received, which it ascribed to racism. In my view the most shameful aspect of that whole despicable document is the resentful suggestion that President Mandela received a good press despite being black, because his role in the transition was only to appease whites.

The media are insulted in that submission by the assertion that they determine and cover news according to a stereotype in their heads in terms of which Africans are -

… immoral, amoral, savage, violent, disrespectful of private property and driven by satanic impulses.

Good heavens! The possibility that a black journalist can be critical was simply dismissed, as in the celebrated case of Ms Mda.

However, it is, above all, the new task which the GCIS has been mapping out for itself - that is, the international marketing of South Africa - that has been most heavily compromised, not only by the Aids and Zimbabwe issues, but also by the polarisation that the hon the President encourages every time he insists that we are two nations, every time he returns to the rallying cry of racism. [Interjections.]

The GCIS research tells one that international imaging will depend, first and foremost, on the attitude of South Africans towards their own country. I must tell the hon the Minister that what has sold South Africa to the world in the nineties was nonracialism and unity. If the hon the Minister polarises South Africa, we will be lost and no amount of branding and imaging will restore confidence. [Interjections.] Two nations as a slogan just does not work, after rainbow nation'' andmiracle’’. In fact, it tells a desperately sad story. [Applause.]

Mrs L MALONEY: Chairperson, we are, indeed, two nations. The mandate of the GCIS, that is the Government Communication and Information System, is to ensure that the public is informed about Government policies and action. In carrying this mandate, Government adopted a communication strategy for the year 2000, that is a nation at work for a better life.

The multipurpose community centres were borne out of this strategy. Three of the centres have been launched, that is in the Eastern Cape, the Northern Province and the Western Cape, in Paarl. A partnership was established across various sectors of society. This will help in the mobilisation of people to work with Government in improving their conditions. The current financial year’s budget was increased. [Interjections.] Shut up, nina! [You shut up!]

This shows how committed the ANC-led Government is in making sure that Government communicates directly and effectively with the citizens. Through those centres, the GCIS embarked on several campaigns. On of the campaigns which they embarked on is the HIV-awareness campaign. These are the successes. Brochures containing HIV/Aids information are displayed in these multipurpose community centres. Condoms are also given free of charge to the communities.

This shows Government’s commitment to fighting this disease. It should be clear that fighting the spread of this disease is not the responsibility of the Health department only, nor the responsibility of the Government alone. HIV/Aids is a national responsibility, and all departments and parastatals must continue fighting this disease.

It is also encouraging to hear people like Bishop Tutu beginning to talk about HIV. Therefore, we urge other church leaders to follow suit. The GCIS should also take a lead in educating the communities about other diseases like TB and others. We also register our sadness that the DP is not taking HIV/Aids seriously. [Interjections.] Instead, the DP uses it for their political point-scoring. Therefore, we call on the leader of the DP to start wearing an HIV-awareness red pin.

Government must set aside the budget for the production of the educational soapies like Soul City, a film that teaches people about health awareness. We must educate our children at a very early age about this disease, and we ask the GCIS to assist in producing those colourful comic books with the information about HIV, because our children are addicted to these comics.

The restructuring of regional GCIS offices is the stepping stone, because the old SACS used to have offices based in the urban areas. Currently, these regional offices are being scaled down, and they are now working at district level. Such a move ensures that the GCIS gets closer to the people. We appreciate the value that the GCIS adds within the Government. Three of these multipurpose community centres were launched, as I have mentioned before.

Now that Government is at the doorstep of our communities, communities must be encouraged to enhance the spirit of community ownership of the projects at local leadership level. Members of this House are urged to mobilise and sensitise the communities about these centres and ongoing activities. This is also an important element in stimulating community participation.

The GCIS should also train communities on how different technologies within these centres work, and how technologies interface to promote the development of the community. It is expected that some of the volunteers in these centres, especially among the youth, will emerge as trainees and create and inform people in telecentre operations. These centres need to be consistent and persistent, especially in high concentrations in the rural areas. [Applause.]

Ms S C VOS: Chairperson, it is, perhaps, an incontrovertable truth that God has not yet created a government communication system, anywhere in the world, which enjoys the unequivocal support of opposition parties. The same must be said of the Government Communication and Information System, which is the subject of debate today.

There is no doubt that the transformation from the old, decrepit SA Communication Services has been dramatic, and one in which innovative technologies and programmes are being designed and implemented by the GCIS to enhance delivery to what it refers to as its clients, South Africa’s citizens. The chief executive officer, Mr Joel Netshitenzhe has moved quickly and decisively to staff the GCIS with senior personnel who are clearly highly professional, competent and committed. In their presentation to the Portfolio Committee on Communications, these persons put forward details of impressive integrated strategies, programmes, research analysis and various multi-media methods of communication which have been devised to meet the needs of their Cabinet mandate, and which have been devised to ensure that the public is informed about Government policies and actions.

More than that, Cabinet has enjoined the GCIS to focus its communication strategy on ways and means to mobilise our people to work with Government to improve their quality of life. However, one cannot please all people all of the time, and nobody knows better than Mr Netshitenzhe that his job is politically delicate and situated between a rock and a hard place. Each day he must walk, literally, on eggs, and he will hear today, as he has done from the opposition benches, that, along the way, he has cracked and broken a few.

What is Government information to some is a clear example of ANC propaganda to others. [Interjections.] Media exposure, along with money, is the joint mother’s milk of politics. The GCIS has direct access to both and its leaders are subtle and sophisticated practitioners. When a Government information system produces prolific, expensive and professional media coverage just before an election, as was the case prior to the 1999 general elections, listing Government achievements, it can expect howls of outrage from opposition parties. Quiet frankly, many of us are still angry about it and believe that the timing and the content was deliberately constructed to the advantage of the majority party. We are hoping that there will not be a repeat performance prior to the local government elections.

My son has a T-shirt simply stating: He who has the most toys wins. An irresponsible Government using its information system as its own political toy will also win, for a while. There are examples all over the world and some very close to our borders. Zimbabwe is a classic example. The GCIS is a powerful tool in the hands of Government. It is critical to the development of multiparty democracy in our country that it be used to nurture and to develop the system of government in the best interest of this generation and generations to come.

May I also say that, equally, the integrity of the ANC leadership of our Government is at stake in not being tempted to use their vast majority and the resources of the GCIS for their own ends. The GCIS is a very ripe apple in the proverbial political Garden of Eden. To use an example recently given to us all by Mr Hansie Cronjé, it is folly, indeed, to take one’s eyes off what is good and true and to grasp what is expedient and lucrative in the short term, but, nevertheless, with resultant devastating consequences.

Much more has to be done by the GCIS to focus on the role of the opposition parties and their critical role in the development of our new democracy. Ways and means need to be explored to expose not only the executive and its priorities, policies and programmes, but the constituency work and individual expertise of individual members of Parliament and those in the NCOP. Our citizens need to be far more exposed to an holistic view of their Government. The IFP supports this Vote and wishes the GCIS well in its difficult and delicate contribution to the development of our nation. [Applause.]

Debate interrupted.

The House adjourned at 17:32. ____

            ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS

ANNOUNCEMENTS:

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces:

1. The Speaker and the Chairperson:

 (1)    The following Bill was introduced in the National Assembly on 8
     June 2000 and referred to the Joint Tagging Mechanism (JTM) for
     classification in terms of Joint Rule 160:


     (i)     Local Government: Cross-boundary Municipalities Bill [B 37
          - 2000] (National Assembly - sec 75) - (Portfolio Committee on
          Provincial and Local Government - National Assembly)
          [Explanatory summary of Bill and prior notice of its
          introduction published in Government Gazette No 21252 of 2
          June 2000.]


 (2)    The Joint Tagging Mechanism (JTM) on 7 June 2000 in terms of
     Joint Rule 160(3), classified the following Bill as a section 75
     Bill:
     (i)     Local Government: Cross-boundary Municipalities Bill [B 37
          - 2000] (National Assembly - sec 75) - (Portfolio Committee on
          Provincial and Local Government - National Assembly).


 (3)    The Subcommittee of the Joint Programme Committee on 8 June 2000
     took a decision, in accordance with Joint Rule 216, that the Local
     Government: Cross-boundary Municipalities Bill [B 37 - 2000], be
     fast-tracked by, where necessary, shortening any period within
     which any step in the legislative process relating to the Bill
     must be completed, in order to make it possible for the Bill to be
     passed by both Houses of Parliament by Friday, 23 June 2000.


     In terms of Joint Rule 216(4) this decision must be tabled in both
     Houses for ratification.


 (4)    Assent by the President of the Republic in respect of the
     following Bills:


     (i)     Division of Revenue Bill [B 8B - 2000] - Act No 16 of 2000
           (assented to and signed by President on 7 June 2000); and

     (ii)    Nonprofit Organisations Amendment Bill [B 9 - 2000] - Act
           No 17 of 2000 (assented to and signed by President on 7 June
           2000).

TABLINGS:

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces:

Papers:

1. The Minister for Provincial and Local Government:

 (1)    Explanatory Memorandum on Vote 22 - "Provincial and Local
     Government", Supplementary Estimate for 2000-2001.

 (2)    Report of the Department of Provincial and Local Government for
     1999.

1. The Minister for Welfare and Population Development:

 Explanatory Memorandum on Vote 35 - "Welfare", Supplementary Estimate
 for 2000-2001.

1. The Minister for Justice and Constitutional Development:

 Report of the National Prosecuting Authority for 1998-99 [RP 99-2000].

1. The Minister of Environmental Affairs and Tourism:

 Explanatory Memorandum on Vote 9 - "Environmental Affairs and Tourism",
 Supplementary Estimate for 2000-2001.

1. The Minister of Labour:

 Explanatory Memorandum on Vote 19 - "Labour", Supplementary Estimate
 for 2000-2001.

National Assembly:

Bills:

1. The Minister of Public Works: (1) Wetsontwerp op die Eiendomswaardeerdersprofessie [W 20 - 2000]

   The Property Valuers Profession Bill [B 20 - 2000] (National Assembly - sec 75) was introduced by the Minister of Public Works on 6 April 2000 and referred to the Portfolio Committee on Public Works.