MONDAY, 30 OCTOBER 2000 __

                PROCEEDINGS OF THE NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
                                ____

The House met at 14:02.

The Chairperson of Committees took the Chair and requested the members to observe a moment of silence for prayers or meditation.

                          NOTICES OF MOTION

Mr T S YENGENI: Mr Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the ANC:

That the House -

(1) notes the recent remarks attributed to Mr Peter Marais, the Democratic Alliance’s mayoral candidate in the Western Cape, by his colleague Freda Adams, former New NP MEC, who was so disgusted by his behaviour that she resigned from the Democratic Alliance;

(2) recognises that these alleged remarks were racist, sexist and offensive; and

 3) calls on the party that claims to be the party for all - despite
    the top thirty places on its list for the Cape Town Council not
    including one single African - to discipline Mr Marais and to
    apologise to the women of South Africa.

[Applause.]

Mr M J ELLIS: Mr Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the DP and the Democratic Alliance …

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order, hon Mike Ellis. We have agreed that you are moving a motion …

Mr M J ELLIS: I shall move on behalf of the DP:

That the House - (1) notes -

     (a)     that the ANC Government insists that the high price of
          Aids drugs is the single biggest barrier to giving South
          Africans access to these drugs; and


     (b)     the Government has so far failed to respond to an offer
          made by five pharmaceutical companies and the United Nations
          in May this year to negotiate large discounts on
          antiretroviral drugs to prevent HIV infection to unborn babies
          and rape survirors;


 (2)    expresses its appreciation to the DP for arranging to negotiate
     with these companies to buy discounted drugs which will be
     available to Aids-infected patients in Democratic Alliance-
     controlled provinces and local authorities; and


 (3)    calls on the ANC Government to follow the DA's example and do
     everything in its power to give all South Africans access to life-
     saving drugs.

Dr R RABINOWITZ: Mr Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move:

That the House -

(1) notes

     (a)     the commitments made by this Parliament to shun any form
          of discrimination on the basis of race and religion;


     (b)     the inflammatory nature of religious conflicts;


     (c)     the potential for the Middle East conflict to have
          repercussions in South Africa;


     (d)     the example of great leaders such as Nelson Mandela and
          Chris Hani who advocated nonviolence, negotiated solutions and
          mutual compromise as a means towards coexistence


     (e)     the importance of educating children towards nonviolence ;
          and


     (f)     the danger of oversimplifying the Middle East conflict
          into populist rhetoric; and

(2) calls on leaders who have close ties with Mr Arafat to encourage him to -

     (a)     discourage violence among Palestinian youth;


     (b)     destroy educational material and programmes inciting and
          training youth and children to kill their Jewish neighbours;
          and


     (c)     embrace negotiation, compromise and nonviolence as the
          only solutions to Palestinian self-determination and Israel's
          survival;

(3) calls on all who make pronouncements on that to diligently research the facts relating to the conflict.

Ms N D NGCENGWANE: Mr Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the ANC:

That the House -

(1) notes -

     (a)     the continuing military aggression by the Israeli
          government against unarmed Palestinians, which left 150
          Palestinians dead; and


     (b)     the continuing deafening silence of the leader of the DP
          towards the democratic aspirations of the Palestinian people
          and the use of excessive force by Israel against the people of
          Palestine;

(2) reaffirms its abhorrence of the extent of violence used by the Israeli army, which includes the use of tanks in denying the Palestinian people their resolve to self-determination;

(3) associates itself with the world opinion, as articulated at the United Nations, that the situation in Palestine is a threat to international peace and security; and (4) declares our unqualified support to the Palestinian people in their quest for freedom, self-determination and justice. [Applause.]

Dr B L GELDENHUYS: Mr Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I will move on behalf of the New NP:

That the House -

(1) notes that, notwithstanding Deputy President Zuma’s efforts to convince the House that there has been a reduction in crime -

     (a)     according to the Institute for Security Studies, crime has
          in fact increased by 5% during the first five months of this
          year;


     (b)     violent crime increased by 8% compared to the same period
          last year; and


    (c)      crime is now higher than in any comparable period since
          1994; and    (2)      urges the Minister of Safety and Security to lift the moratorium
     on crime statistics, because the co-operation of an informed
     public is a prerequisite for fighting crime effectively.

Mr M E MABETA: Mr Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I will move on behalf of the UDM:

That the House -

(1) expresses its concern that, despite a new political dispensation based on the true principles of democracy that allows for free political activities, political intimidation and assassinations continue unabated as demonstrated by the killing of several UDM leaders such as Sifiso Nkabinde in KwaZulu-Natal and others in the Western Cape;

(2) is deeply disturbed by the poor prosecution of the accused in the murders of members of the party, namely Mr Milton Mbewana and Nomhle Gexu;

(3) commends Judge Dennis Davis for his comments when sentencing Fikile Mandela, to the effect that those who conspired and orchestrated the murders were not brought to book;

(4) rejects the remarks of the ANC about Judge Dennis Davis in this respect;

(5) is further displeased by the fact that two weeks after the murder of Victor Mbulelo Sam, chairperson of the UDM branch in Crossroads, no arrests have been made ….

[Time expired.]

Mr G G OLIPHANT: Mr Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the ANC:

That the House -

(1) notes

     (a)     with grave concern the pressure put by the media and the
          DP on the Presidency to disclose the nature of Mr Parks
          Mankahlana's long illness and the cause of his death; and


     (b)     that the ANC encourages people to publicly disclose their
          HIV/Aids status and expresses its desire to destigmatise
          HIV/Aids;

(2) believes that -

     (a)     the disclosure of the nature of Comrade Parks Mankahlana's
          illness is a prerogative of his immediate family; and


     (b)     people have a right to privacy which must be upheld and
          respected; and

(3) calls on the media and the DP to desist from this irresponsible conduct and respect the wishes of the Mankahlana family.

[Applause.]

Ms C DUDLEY: Mr Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the ACDP:

That the House -

(1) notes -

     (a)     with concern that the Greater Nelspruit Rape Intervention
          Project was evicted from two Mpumalanga hospitals for helping
          rape survivors get anti-Aids drugs, and that about 75% of the
          victims seen by the project are survivors of gang rape and 54%
          are under the age of 16; and


     (b)     that although Grip has reached a settlement with state
          attorneys to return to the hospitals, they have had to agree
          to not provide rape survivors with the funding for AZT and 3TC
          at state hospitals or ask doctors working there to write out
          prescriptions;

(2) is appalled that the Government has also demanded that they stop raising funds for the drugs and that they stop advising the public that they can take medication to reduce the risk of Aids; and

(3) calls on the Government to -

     (a)     stop preventing disadvantaged people from accessing what
          others can buy; and


     (b)     explain their motive in actively preventing rape victims,
          mothers and babies from accessing available drugs which reduce
          their chance of contracting HIV/Aids.

Mr M A MANGENA: Mr Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of Azapo:

That the House -

(1) notes -

     (a)     the ever-escalating price of crude oil and, therefore, of
          all petroleum products;


     (b)     that the steepest rise is in the price of paraffin, which
          is used by the poorest in our society for lighting and
          cooking; and


     (c)     the fact that the Government has previously been asked to
          consider subsidising the price of paraffin in order to cushion
          the poor against these abnormal escalations;

(2) observes that the Ministry of Minerals and Energy has announced its intention to investigate ways of intervening in respect of the price of paraffin; and

(3) therefore acknowledges the noble intentions on the part of the Ministry of Minerals and Energy and wishes them well in their endeavours.

Ms S K MNUMZANA: Mr Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the ANC:

That the House -

(1) notes - (a) the meeting organised by the leader of the DP, Mr Tony Leon, with pharmaceutical companies to negotiate for cheaper drugs for treatment of opportunistic diseases for people living with HIV/Aids; and

     (b)     that the DP, backed by major pharmaceutical companies,
          opposed the then Medicines and Related Substances Control
          Amendment Bill which would make it easier for our people to
          access cheaper drugs;

(2) believes that Mr Tony Leon is trying to hijack initiatives by the ANC-led Government to make cheaper drugs accessible to our people and is scoring political points at the expense of the people suffering from HIV/Aids; and

(3) calls on Mr Tony Leon and the DP to be part of the Government’s partnership against Aids and to participate in the HIV/Aids awareness campaign. [Interjections.] [Applause.]

Mr A J BOTHA: Mr Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the DP:

That the House -

(1) notes that -

     (a)     farmers, as a group, have become the biggest victims of
          murder in South Africa, according to figures released by Agri-
          SA;


     (b)     on average, 274 farmers per 100 000 of the population are
          murdered each year, exceeding murders of members of the Police
          Service; and


     (c)     between January and September this year, about 600 farm
          attacks have occurred, resulting in the deaths of 100 people;

(2) acknowledges that without viable commercial farming, South Africa will become dependent on imported food, making food much more expensive for everyone; and

(3) calls on the Government to take greater steps to protect people living in rural areas and to refrain from making any statements which encourage attacks on farmers and farmworkers.

Prince N E ZULU: Mr Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the IFP:

That the House -

(1) condemns, on behalf of peace-loving citizens, the killing of an IFP candidate for the local government elections in Gauteng;

(2) is of the opinion that the police should be given high-tech apparatus to find the killers of Comrade Justice Radebe with a focus on wiping out crime in our country;

(3) notes that the Independent Electoral Commission takes a serious view of whether such a killing augurs well for a free and fair election in that province; and (4) calls on the perpetrators of crime to save the coming local elections and save South Africa from being a scapegoat for international criminal demagogy.

Mr L M KGWELE: Mr Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the ANC:

That the House -

(1) notes that the Department of Education reports that nearly 300 South African high schools from all socioeconomic backgrounds have made great strides in improving their matric pass rate over the past three years;

(2) congratulates the ANC Minister of Education and the Department of Education on the excellent guidance that they provide to the provincial education authorities to implement the necessary intervention to reach the goal of providing quality education to all our people; and

(3) wishes all matriculation candidates the very best while they write their final examination. [Applause.]

Mr J DURAND: Mr Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the New NP:

That the House -

(1) notes that -

     (a)     poverty in South Africa is a direct result of rampant
          unemployment;


     (b)     the ANC promises in its poster campaign to address poverty
          in South Africa;


     (c)     the ANC has failed in its 1994 election promise of "Jobs
          for all"; and [Interjections.]


     (d)     the ANC's campaign of "Speeding up change" is only
          speeding up change for a select few that are cronies of the
          ANC leadership;    (2)      urges the ANC Government to recognise that its promise to
     address poverty cannot be realised without first addressing the
     high levels of crime, creating an investor-friendly climate and
     restructuring its rigid labour laws; and

(3) calls on the ANC to take note that all South Africans will react to the clarion call of the Democratic Alliance which is prepared to put all the people of South Africa first. [Interjections.]

                    ALLOCATION OF SPEAKING TIMES

                         (Draft Resolution)

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Chairperson, I move without notice:

That notwithstanding the provisions of Rule 106, the following times be allocated to parties for comment on the statement by the Minister of Health today on the rating of South Africa by the World Health Organisation:

  Minister: 10 minutes; African National Congress: 5 minutes; Democratic
  Party: 4 minutes; Inkatha Freedom Party and New National Party: 3
  minutes each; United Democratic Movement: 2 minutes; all other
  parties: 1 minute each.

Agreed to.

                    DEATH OF MR PARKS MANKAHLANA

                         (Draft Resolution) The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Chairperson, I move without notice:

That the House -

(1) notes the untimely death of Mr Parks Mankahlana, spokesperson of former President Nelson Mandela, Chief Director of Communications of The Presidency and spokesperson of President Thabo Mbeki;

(2) recognises his role in building our new democracy and serving two democratically elected Presidents; (3) believes that his death is a loss to The Presidency and the people of South Africa;

(4) joins the Mankahlana family and his friends and colleagues in mourning the death of Mr Phakamile Mankahlana; and

(5) expresses its heartfelt condolences to his wife, children, family, colleagues and friends. Agreed to.

                  CONGRATULATIONS TO AMAKROKOKROKO

                         (Draft Resolution)

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Chairperson, I move without notice:

That the House -

(1) notes the sterling performance by members of our 2000 Paralympic team, Amakrokokroko, in the Paralympic Games in Sydney, Australia; (2) recognises the gold medal winning performances by Christelle Bosker, Ebert Kleynhans, Fanie Lombaard, Michael Louwrens, Gert van der Merwe, Nathan Meyer, Malcolm Pringle and Zanele Situ as commendable and phenomenal sporting achievements; and

(3) congratulates Amakrokokroko on their haul of 13 gold, 12 silver and 13 bronze medals at the Games. Agreed to.

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! The first item on the Order Paper is a statement by the hon the Minister of Finance on the Medium-Term Budget Policy Statement. By agreement, the decision on the Minister’s statement will follow later.

              MEDIUM-TERM BUDGET POLICY STATEMENT 2000

                             (Statement)

The MINISTER OF FINANCE: Chairperson, hon members, today we lay before this House the Medium-Term Budget Policy Statement 2000. This statement is in many respect a symbol of our maturing democracy and we are deeply appreciative of the time that Parliament will devote to debating it intensively this year.

The Medium-Term Budget Policy Statement serves three functions. Firstly, it advises Parliament on what has changed in the economic outlook since the Budget was tabled in February this year. Secondly, it shares with the House the developments in public policy that will shape the Budget to be tabled on 21 February next year. Thirdly, and most importantly, it invites Parliament and the nations to reflect on our priorities, performance and plans and to share with us in addressing the challenges we face in shaping the future of our country.

What then has changed in the economy? Firstly, I will address international developments. The past three years have been difficult for the global economy, and although the volatility that characterised the 1998 financial crisis has abated, there are still many challenges. Global growth, which may reach 4% this year, has contributed to our healthy export performance. However, rising oil prices, declining commodity prices - with the notable exception of platinum perceptions of instability in the region and a general decline in capital flows to emerging markets have continued to constrain growth in South Africa

Amongst the most important risks to the global economy in the coming months, are the large economic and financial imbalances between the three major currency areas, that is the US dollar, the euro and the yen. Global growth has largely been sustained by the continued expansion of the US economy. However, the current account deficit of the US balance of payments is now uncomfortably large. Moreover, further corrections in asset prices and uncertainty about the future of US interest rates remain a source of volatility in the mature economies, with important knok-on effects for emerging and developing countries.

It is also worth noting that several fast-growing economies have large current account deficits, and many of the countries that were affected by the 1998 financial crises, especially those in Asia, are now facing large fiscal deficits. The recent increases in oil prices, if sustained, will hamper global growth with oil-importing countries, particularly the poorest, being the most affected.

Let me turn briefly to the impact of global trends on monetary and balance of payments trends in our own economy. Monetary policy has entered a new era. The Monetary Policy Committee and broader consultation forums have brought greater transparency to the policy process and we have agreed, as Parliament, on the inflation target.

Although the recent increases in oil prices and the impact of floods and food prices have increased the trends in prices this year, underlying demand and cost pressures in the economy remain muted. We are confident that the target for consumer price inflation, excluding mortgage costs of between 3% and 6% in 2002, will be met.

Interest rates, this year, have remained relatively stable and prospects for a further easing of interest rates as inflation declines remain good. The balance of payments performance this year reflects the underlying strength in the economy. Exports have responded positively to international opportunities and the depreciation of the rand. Exports increased by nearly 9% this year in volume, and we expect a further 7% growth a year between 2001 and 2003. The gold price has been a disappointment, but we have benefited from the extraordinary surge in the price of platinum group metals. Imports have grown moderately and despite the rise in the price of oil, we expect that the current account deficit will be a modest 0,4% of GDP for the year.

As growth gathers momentum, we anticipate that the current account deficit will rise, averaging about 1,3% a year for the next three years. In 1999, South Africa received a total of $4,1 billion in capital inflows. This was $1 billion more than in 1998. However, this trend has been reversed in the first half of this year with the capital account recording a nett outflow of R1 billion, which is mainly a consequence of sales of bonds by nonresidents. We should remember that most developing countries are subject to the unpredictability of these portfolio flows which happen, these days, at the speed of an electronic impulse.

The overarching objective is to ensure sustainable development here in South Africa so that we can create employment opportunities for our people and fiercely combat the poverty that still stamps its mark of shame on our nation. Creating the conditions for human and economic development is not an easy process. It requires time, patience and, often, it requires difficult decisions and consolidation.

Over the past five years, we have decisively addressed several structural barriers to growth, protectionist trade policies, exchange controls, an unsustainable fiscal position and the inequitable distribution of public services. We have strengthened revenue performance, restrained Government consumption expenditure and reduced the budget deficit. We can now build on these achievements.

Today we announce a bold programme of targeted public expenditure that is focused on developing our people and building infrastructure.

The economy has been subject to a number of shocks in the first part of this year including floods, high oil prices, a depressed gold price and perceptions of regional instability. These have adversely affected economic growth. Our revised estimate of growth for the fiscal year is 2,6%.

Our sound foundations, improvements in our already strong export performance and accelerating investment spending will underpin an annual growth rate of around 3,5% over the period of the Medium-Term Expenditure Framework.

The restructuring of Transnet, Telkom, Eskom and Denel, amongst others, will benefit all South Africans over the next three years, thus bringing in foreign investment and contributing to lower prices and better infrastructure services. It will also lead to an injection of private sector capital, technology and expertise into our economy.

Similar cost and efficiency gains should derive from the public-private partnerships that aim to bring the disciplines of private sector risk management and the long-term contractual commitments to various areas of public service delivery.

The restructuring of state-owned assets is but one of a number of deep structural changes that have taken place in the economy. Much of our future success will depend on the regulatory changes and support structures that will facilitate and free up economic activity.

I talked about the platform for growth that this Government has established. Because we have not spent beyond our means, because we have improved the way we collect and spend revenue, and aided by our privatisation receipts, we have brought the budget deficit under control. This year, it is projected at 2,6% and it will fall to 2,1% of GDP in 2003- 04.

By reducing the deficit, we have reduced a share of revenue we spend on servicing debt, thus freeing up resources for public expenditure. For the first time in over 20 years, debt service costs as a percentage of GDP are declining. Debt service costs are projected to fall from 5,5% of GDP last year to 4,5% in 2003-04, a downward revision and an improvement of the Budget estimates of February this year.

Government dissaving has fallen from 5,9% of GDP in 1994 to 2,6% last year. As Government increasingly shifts spending towards capital expenditure, Government dissaving is projected to decline to zero by the year 2002.

Lower debt and real interest rates are now helping to insulate the economy from external shocks. By reducing interest rates and containing inflation, we make it easier for businesses and firms to invest in the economy and create jobs.

This strong fiscal position, our enhanced capacity to collect revenue and the revised projections for economic growth contribute to upward adjustments to our revenue estimates for the MTEF period.

The preliminary outcome for revenue collected last year is R198,2 billion. This year we anticipate collecting R212,2 billion, projected to grow to R271 billion by 2003-04.

By broadening the revenue base and improving tax collection, we have been able to lower tax rates, which will lower the costs of investment and job creation, and release household spending power. The 2001 budget will again include substantial income tax relief.

And this brings us to our bottom line: The amount we are able to spend on goods and services, on developing the infrastructure, in creating jobs, in protecting our citizens and, most important, in alleviating poverty has increased.

We can now project an increase in expenditure of R7,8 billion in 2001-02 and R13,2 billion in 2002-03 over the baseline estimates published in the 2000 Budget, and an additional R18,3 billion in the new year of the MTEF over and above the baseline budgeted for by the departments. Including provisions for contingencies, expenditure on public services will grow by 3,7% a year in real terms over the next three years.

In embarking on this bold extension of public expenditure, we will target investment in our people and development of our physical infrastructure.

Capital spending and related infrastructure rehabilitation maintenance is projected to increase from R24,1 billion in the present fiscal year to R32 billion by the year 2003-04 - R8 billion more and a growth rate of nearly 18% a year. Allocation for rehabilitation of flood-damaged infrastructure stands at nearly R1 billion this year. There will be further amounts for flood-damaged provinces over the next two years, contributing not only to repairs and maintenance, but also to job creation and stimulation of economic activity in some of our poorest provinces.

Spending on physical infrastructure will also be targeted at our transport and communications networks, railways rolling stock, our hospitals, schools, clinics and other public buildings. It will address the problem of underspending and slower-than-anticipated delivery in a number of areas in which Government has previously allocated funds.

We also hope that some of this expenditure can be targeted towards building our capacity in the knowledge economy by ensuring that computers and the web are more accessible, particularly, to our school children. At the same time measures will be taken to ensure improvements in the quality of our infrastructure investment - much of which takes place at the provincial and local government level - and to address institutional inefficiencies.

Social services continue to account for over half of national and provincial non-interest spending, or over R106 billion is spent on education health and welfare services this year. In addition, our social security funds account for about R8 billion a year in transfers to the unemployed and victims of road accidents or workplace injuries. South Africa’s social service expenditure has increased strongly in recent years and has been redirected towards poorer provinces and towards meeting the needs of the poor first.

Spending on social services will increase by R21 billion over the next three years or by 6,3% per year in education, 6,7% in health and 7,8% in welfare services. In addition to these increases, schools and health services will benefit from the planned increases in infrastructure spending. Now the challenge becomes one of improving efficiency and quality.

Bearing in mind that our youth is our future, we have provided for continued investment into early childhood development initiatives. We realise that, especially for children from poorer households, early preschool education can make the difference between success and failure in the more senior grades. We need an efficient system, a system that delivers returns. Our best returns are in educated, self-confident young people who graduate from our schools. We believe that the earlier we start with the process of education the better.

We also have to square up to the tragedy we are all facing. The effects on our economy, our lives and on our social fabric with the HIV/Aids epidemic. We realise that HIV/Aids will present and immense challenge to the social services sectors in coming years and we have to gear ourselves to face that challenge. The sharp increase in the provincial equitable share should better enable provinces to ensure that the health and welfare budgets have the resources to deal with increasing pressures of HIV and Aids. Government is also introducing a special allocation to support more integrated Aids prevention strategies during this fiscal year. This will rise from R75 million this year to R300 in 2003-04.

Co-operative governance is an essential part of our constitutional democracy. Provinces and local government are at the frontline of the delivery of social services such as welfare, education, health, poverty alleviation programmes and in providing the basis of decent living such as street lights refuse collection, water and electricity.

Over the period of the MEF we will be increasing transfers to provinces by over 7% a year and to local government by over 15% a year. This should allow provinces to budget adequately and deal with the pressures that they will face, particularly in health and education sectors. They will now be able to budget better for textbooks, teacher training, school building and medical services. Education will also benefit from the R250 million allocation, over the next three years, for early childhood development.

Last year we introduced the provincial infrastructure grant. In the year after next we will increase it by R500 million and by an estimated R1,2 billion and R2,3 billion over the last two years of the MEF. This is an addition to allocation for flood reconstruction and the building of Pretoria academic hospital. This represents substantial investments in developing provincial and local services.

The real challenge, however, will be in how provinces and municipalities spend these funds. By making public our medium term plans now, we are able to ensure that programmes can be designed, developed and implemented as the funds become available. The implementation challenge begins with Cabinet and the national Government and extends to provincial treasuries departments and spending agencies, and the new municipalities will have primary responsibility for basic household services.

In conclusion, we have introduced a wide range of reforms across the budget process, such as the inter-governmental financial system and the tax system, thus enhancing our ability to meet the needs of our people. The success of these reforms is clearly reflected in the reduced share of revenue that now goes to debt service. It is reflected in the turn-around of the financial position of provinces from a deficit of R5, 5 billion in 1997/1998 to a R3 billion surplus in 1999/2000. It is reflected in the increase of 3,7% a year in real spending on public services that we are able to plan for the next three years.

The challenges facing us are still immense. We laid claim to our democracy and our country at exactly the time that the winds of globalisation buffeted developing countries most harshly. But the global climate cannot distract us from the historic responsibility that rests on our shoulders. We need rather to grasp the opportunities that globalisation opens to us. We will continue to pursue an economic strategy and fiscal policies aimed at overcoming poverty and inequally through sustainable growth and effective engagement with the global economy.

Our responsibility is to invest in our people by spending on infrastructure and on education, by facilitating the development of skills so that we can take part in the increasingly knowledge-oriented economy of the world by investing in justice and security, and by responding effectively to the social challenges before us. I would like to thank my colleagues in Cabinet and, in particular, the Ministers Committee on the Budget for their support. May I conclude by inviting Parliament and fellow South Africans to join us in debating priorities and programmes proposed in the 2000 Medium- Term Budget Policy Statement. [Applause.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! May I remind hon members that the NTBPS workshop will take place tomorrow between 9:30 and 12:30 and will be conducted by both the Minister of Finance and the Deputy Minister of Finance. The House will be divided into two. The first cluster will be in the National Assembly and the second cluster in E249 … [Interjections.] I am sorry, the Old Assembly Chamber.

Hon members, this is the first of its kind and this is quite an important workshop. This is to inform members of Parliament how the Budget of the country is formulated. We therefore request members to participate in this workshop, ask questions and understand how the entire Budget of this country works. The workshop will focus on two main issues. The first is the micro economic focus and, secondly, it will also focus on the priority expenditures of the Government which is very crucial for all of us as members to understand, to enable us to engage effectively with the Budget of this country. All members are therefore requested not to ignore that workshop but to attend the workshop.

                    RATING OF SOUTH AFRICA BY WHO

                             (Statement)

The MINISTER OF HEALTH: Chairperson, hon members, the World Heath Organisation released its World Heath Report 2000, which focused on health systems performance, earlier this year. I then invited the WHO to come to South Africa to present the findings of the assessment to MECs, heads of provincial departments of health, the private sector and other stakeholders whom I had also invited to the meeting. A WHO representative, Dr Christopher Marais, formally presented the findings. This meeting was preceded by technical discussions between the WHO and our departmental staff, where the focus of the discussions was the technical aspects of the evaluation methodology to allow us better insight into how the rating was arrived at and to understand better what is considered important by the WHO in the delivery of health care.

The performance of health systems has traditionally been evaluated through measures such as the infant mortality rate and maternal mortality rate.

However, these are disease-outcome measures that do not adequately assess the performance of the systems that deliver health services. The World Health Organisation has, therefore, developed a new framework and appropriate measuring tools to assess the efficiency of health systems in achieving health outcomes. Using the newly developed measure of health systems’ performance, the WHO has assessed the performance of its 191 member states.

The new health systems performance tool is based on a number of key components which give a composite assessment of equity, efficiency and quality in a health system. The assessment is based on five main indicators, which are: improving the health status of the South African population; reducing inequalities in health status; ensuring that the health system is responsive to realistic expectations that the public have of it; reducing the inequalities in responsiveness of the health system across different groups in the population, and achieving fairness in amounts that people spend on health.

On the basis of this assessment, overall, South Africa rated 175 out of 191 countries. It was quite clear, even as admitted by the WHO, that there were defects in the assessment, as this was the first time that it was being done in this way.

In the case of South Africa, for instance, because of the gaps in our data, in many instances, proxies were used. This clearly introduced significant inaccuracies. However, the WHO has pledged to improve the quality of the tools used in the methodology for assessment.

Another important point is that there was no consultation with the countries being assessed, and because of that, the WHO lost out on some important information which could have enhanced the quality of the evaluation.

The major contributors to South Africa’s low ranking were found to be the following: the apartheid backlog; inefficiencies in health resource distribution between the private and public health sector and projections on the impact of HIV/Aids.

The inefficiencies in expenditure between the public and private health sector is a result of our reality in South Africa, and of course, the legacy of apartheid, where the private health sector spends close to 80% of the nation’s health resources on only 20% of the total population of South Africa. There are serious inequalities in the way in which these resources are distributed between the public and private health sectors.

The current backlogs were also caused by apartheid planning, which neglected the planning of providing of adequate health care services for the majority of South Africans.

A striking feature of the report is its emphasis on the issues which Government has been addressing through various policy initiatives. We have addressed the importance of universal coverage through our policy of free health care at primary health facilities, and by embracing social solidarity by pooling resources for social security in health care. The WHO makes a point of risk pooling in social health insurance to guarantee that even the poorest segments of the population are within the health safety net. Our new Medical Schemes Act of 1998 addresses this and the inequalities in the access to health as well as grossly inequitable expenditures on health care by individuals. It is particularly important for us that this report is being released now, when we face such strong opposition to our policies which even major international organisations such as the WHO confirmed are the right direction to take. Government has demonstrated its commitment to these policies, and as an example, a task team has been established by Cabinet to look at comprehensive social security, a component of which is risk pooling, much emphasised by the WHO report.

Another area of the health system that was pointed out by the report was the failure by governments to take up their stewardship role adequately.

It is a function of government to oversee, lead and provide guidance for the overall health system through appropriate policy, regulation and collation of relevant information. It is critical that an environment exists and government is given the space to perform this function.

This is something that we are happy has been raised, since there are those amongst us who tend to regard every intervention by Government to be an infringement on the rights of those who decide to trade in the health arena. Clearly, Government has an important role to play in ensuring that resources are used effectively across the private/public devide, and that policies are pursued that promote the overall coverage of many.

Given the above scenario, our major challenge is going to be the achievement of a smooth interface between the public and the private sector. This we have already included in our ten-point plan, a strategic framework of the department’s direction in this current term of government.

Though the overall rating of the country was poor, there were areas where the health system performed very well. Of note is the fact that the system was found to be quite responsive to the needs of the people - a factor that indicates a major success in the implementation of the Batho Pele principles and the Patients’ Rights Charter. The Health Minmec takes note of this report and sees it in a positive light as yet another piece of work that helps to strengthen our hand in pursuing the direction we have taken. In this regard we wish it to be noted that we believe that the new methodology proposed by the World Health Organisation for assessment of health systems offers hope for a better and more comprehensive assessment of health systems. Consequently we have decided to be one of the 20 countries in which the instrument will be further tested.

I would like to take this opportunity to inform this House that we will be convening a health summit early next year to review progress in the implementation of our health policies. This summit will provide a suitable platform for this WHO report to be debated by all stakeholders. This will ensure that we benchmark our progress against that of other countries, particularly on the design, process performance and responsiveness of our health system, in addition to the already used outcome measures such as infant mortality rate and maternal mortality rate.

A lot of ground has been covered since 1994. We have not only ensured universal access to primary health care services, but this Government has also achieved strides in improving access to water and sanitation, education, and others, because these are all key determinants of health, and their combined impact on improving the health status cannot be ignored. Therefore, we maintain that our national health system has improved the lives of our people, especially if one considers the overall effect of improvements in health, as well as the combined effects of other sectoral inputs.

Our own evaluation has pointed to the importance and urgency of streamlining our public/private interface, both to maximize on the total country’s resources, as well as to perform more effectively our function as Government, to be responsible for the strategy and direction of health care delivery. The World Health Organisation’s recommendations accord with our own policy interventions, not only in the area of risk pooling as a mechanism for optimal health coverage, but in other areas as well.

In conclusion, I must emphasise that the WHO report confirms that we are on the right track with regard to our health sector reforms. We will focus, firstly, on building solidarity so that people are not discriminated from accessing health care services because of their economic status in particular; secondly, bridging the gap between the public and private sector, especially in the distribution of health care resources, and thirdly, strengthening the stewardship role of government.

I wish to thank all the public and private health care workers for committing themselves - everyday of their lives - to providing better health services, amid many challenges, in order to provide a better life for all our people.

I am challenging all the political parties in this House to work together with us to realise this better life for all our people and to stop pretending that there are quick-fix solutions to the problems of providing affordable health care, especially in the fight against HIV/Aids. [Applause.]

Mr M J ELLIS: Mr Chairperson, the hon the Minister has used a lot of words this afternoon to hide a pretty dismal record of the state of our health care services. She has tried to use a number of old excuses for the fact that she and her department are failing to come to grips with the health care needs of South Africans.

Six and a half years of ANC Government has done nothing to improve the health care needs of South Africans. In fact, the situation has deteriorated. [Interjections.] The hon Minister has been given lots of time to get her act together. She blames opposition parties and she blames previous government, but she takes no blame upon her own shoulders. This is why we will never ever get the health care services right in this country, because the Minister refuses to admit that her Government and party and their policies are wrong, and will simply do nothing to improve health care services in this country. [Interjections.]

The Minister talks about more summits but let me say to her that more summits will not help. Hard work and clear policies will start to make a difference to the lives of South Africans. And we have to accept that, despite the Minister’s words this afternoon, South Africa’s ranking in the World Health Organisation Report 2000 shows, once again, just how badly off South Africans are in comparison with other people living in other countries in this world.

We have a pretty poor health environment and, at the same time, we certainly do have access to affordable, high quality health care. The WHO report is based on the assumption that the differences in the performance of health systems across the world are not just about money. Some countries perform well with very little money. Some do badly with a relatively large amount of money.

Unfortunately, South Africa fits very clearly into the categories of those that perform badly, despite being relatively well funded. In terms of health care expenditure per capita, South Africa fits into the top third of the 191 countries which were measured. But we are very close to the bottom

• No. 175 - in the measurement of how this money is used. And we are also close to the bottom - No 151 - in terms of how fairly health care benefits are distributed amongst the population. [Interjections.]

The hon the Minister will start to blame the private sector, the DP, the New NP and the DA. I know that she will do that, but she will know as well as I do, that that is only part of the story. There are very serious problems with her Government’s own policies with regard to the distribution of health care in South Africa, and that is where the rot really starts.

But we hardly need reports from the WHO to tell us how poorly our health care system has been managed. The evidence is all around us. Over 4 million South Africans are infected with HIV/Aids and hospitals cannot cope with the flood of people needing care, but the Government is still trying to pretend that there is no national crisis. Here they go again! Why do they not listen for a change, because it would really help them. [Interjections.]

The Government is still trying to pretend that there is no national crisis and refusing to devise and implement alternative care options. Drugs are available to prevent the transmission of HIV/Aids to unborn children and rape survivors, but the Government is letting politics stand in the way and will not allow them to be used.

The Leader of the Opposition went to Europe last week, and his trip has revealed exactly what the position is with regard to HIV/Aids drugs. [Interjections.] Price reduction offers have been made to our national Government - and the ANC can say what they like, but they know it is true. It is clear to this House and to the country at large that this House has been misled in terms of what offers have been placed on the table and rejected by the Government, which has then had the audicity to turn round, as the hon Abe Nkomo has done recently, and said that no offer has been made. We know that an offer to provide the ARV combination - Combivir - for two US dollars per day has been in the public domain for the past six months, and that there have been other good offers relating to Nevirapine.

What the political agenda of the Government is in rejecting these offers is not clear. It makes no sense. [Interjections.] That hon member should come and make a better speech if he thinks he can do so. He knows darned well that he cannot, because he does not even know what he is talking about. What the political agenda of the Government is in rejecting these offers is not clear. But the fact that it is having a disastrous result is obvious and will probably lead to us falling even further down the WHO rating as our system becomes overburdened with HIV/Aids victims.

At the same time, in KwaZulu-Natal 31 people have died over the past few months from a cholera outbreak …

There have been more than 4 000 cases reported so far.

An HON MEMBER: Blame the ANC for that.

Mr M J ELLIS: I do. The hon member is quite right. He should not worry. I do blame the ANC for that. There is no sign that the governments, either provincial or national, have been able to contain it, and the ANC is in charge. [Interjections.] If the community concerned had had access to clean water, there is no doubt that this outbreak would never have happened.

We all know that clean water is the basis on which any health care system is built, a fact that this Government would appear to have missed. [Interjections.] In addition to this, if the community had had access to good clinics, with sufficient staff and the right medicines, the deaths could have, and should have, been avoided. In a country like South Africa, so rich in technology, it is inconceivable that we have a cholera outbreak of this magnitude.

However, it is not just in the poor rural areas that this happens. We have in an area less than one kilometre from the new stock exchange in Sandton, an area known as Mushroom Farm, sewerage bubbling up out of the ground, out of the water. [Interjections.] No doubt this will be the next area where we will have cholera outbreaks in South Africa. [Interjections.] If these are the circumstances prevailing in one of the most well-developed areas of the most well-developed province, what hope is there for the rest of the country? [Interjections.]

Let me say in my final few seconds that our health care service in this country are deteriorating fast. The Minister of Health can say what she likes. The trouble is whatever she tries to do seems to be a total and utter disaster. There is no doubt - I sincerely trust that the people of South Africa will do something about it in this election - that the people of South Africa will start to show their faith in a new party known as the Democratic Alliance. [Time expired.] [Interjections.] [Applause.]

Dr R RABINOWITZ: Hon Chairman, we have to admit that we inherited an abysmal health service, and we also have to admit that the Department of Health and its teams must get 11 out of 10 for effort and for their will to bring equal care to all. There are pockets of exellence for which people show gratitude, but nurses are leaving the country in droves, there are short hours during which clinics can serve the people and long queues, and people often arrive and get a Panado and a pat on the back.

Let us admit that we have a problem. It may not be getting worse, but it certainly is not getting better, and it may be just the same. Why is it? It is because we have a policy that is trying to control all the health services in the country and build a national health service in which Government assumes the wisdom to be able to tell who should do what where. The result is a huge beaurocracy which has no incentive for efficiency and which is absorbing money like a sponge.

What should we do? We should obligate the state to care for rural people and for those in informal settlements; to fund emergency care, up to a limit, in all hospitals, whether they be public or private; to lay down minimum standards for public and private hospitals; and to establish health ombudspersons and independent monitoring bodies to ensure that they adhere to those minimum standards.

If our aim is to bridge the gap between public and private services, we will only do that if we put them into a competitive relationship. Government hospitals should offer better accomodation to fee-paying patients, and private hospitals should be contracted on a competitive basis to offer treatment to state-funded patients. The state, as the largest shareholder, will get good prices and will bring the costs of services down. This will mean improved efficiency, better services and lower costs.

All our health Acts are aimed at control and equality, rather than at better care, at laying down norms and standards which we cannot police, and at shifting people and money into the public sector. [Interjections.] We do not need the World Health Organisation. We see the results. For example, the cost of medical schemes is spiralling, and fewer people can join them, which is the opposite of the intention that the Government had when the legislation was passed. The burden that our legislation is placing on the schemes is making them more expensive and exclusive.

It is time to change our policies, and to help our enthusiastic Government and health teams so that we can increase the morale of our nurses and doctors in all our public hospitals.

Mr S NAIDOO: Chairman, hon members, the World Health Organisation, which leads the world alliance for health for all, was founded 52 years ago.

The World Health Organisation considers the status of health control of all countries and issues directives and precautionary measures for the global upkeep of health standards in countries and regions. It disseminates pertinent and relevant information in order to reinforce and underpin major health complaints to needful countries, especially the underdeveloped.

The World Health Organisation, in providing logistical and material assistance, also provides statistical information by allowing access to their data bank. The provision of professional personnel is a most welcome role.

At present, we have 77 deaths caused by cholera, and the perpetual threats and animal diseases do not portray a strong infrastructure. We should review our health structures to ensure that our basic fundamental requisites are maintained, at least to ensure our standards are elevated to an acceptable international level.

We need to spend more money in this arena and on more substantial structures to be established in the primary and secondary health sectors. We need to be alert, at all times, and give priority to the protection of our people.

Ms C DUDLEY: Chairperson, the Minister says that Government policy is not discriminating against accessing health care services. [Interjections.] An organisation committed to serving the disadvantaged in Mpumalanga, helping them to acquire crisis counselling after rape and getting medication that reduces the risk of HIV/Aids, is chased from the hospitals in that province and accused of undermining the health policy of this Government, enticed back only to avoid the Constitutional Court, because they would be depriving indigent people of their rights. However, they still are, because these same people are still being bullied into not supplying these drugs. They are not even allowed to tell the people that such drugs are available.

A number of 175 out of 191 does not sound positive to me. We all know that the problem of Aids, TB, cholera, malaria, etc, is increasing daily. Defending the integrity of our frontiers, ensuring clean water that is not contaminated … [Time expired.]

Dr M S MOGOBA: Chairperson, the dismal rating by the World Health Organisation, although not expected, should really be a wake-up call to the whole country.

Of course we know that we have inherited a legacy from the past. We also know that we have poverty and that water is a problem in this country. I want to emphasise that until we can get the question of water right, we can never be a healthy nation.

Of course we know that we need a firm administration of our health services. Of course we know about the Aids debacle, but I think that what is important is that, as a nation, this wake-up call says ``let us stand together’’. This is one issue about which we should not be politicising.

Health is a common patrimony for all of us. And what is more, it is a matter of survival. Unless we get our health services right, nobody is going to escape. We are all going to swim or sink together.

I therefore welcome the call for a health summit and I hope it will really be a health summit that can get us on the way to better health services. [Applause.]

Dr A S NKOMO: Mr Chairperson, I want to thank the Minister of Health because she has received the report of the World Health Organisation, and it is yet one of the many reminders that we are now back in the international community. [Applause.] Hon MEMBERS: Hear! Hear!

Dr A S NKOMO: The World Health Report - for those who have not read it, because responses indicate that it has not been read - was released in June and was prepared by a team at the World Health Organisation under the conceptual framework developed by Christopher Murray and Julio Frenk in the World Health Organisation Global Programme on Evidence for Health Policy. They used new analytical methods and indicators to process the data that member countries submit to the World Health Organisation.

It is perhaps surprising that the methodology was not piloted first, and the member countries consulted on both the process and the results of the analysis before the report was circulated globally. We accept that report, but we must make these remarks. Participatory methods are an established facet of public health research, and one would have expected more consultation with policy-makers throughout the research process.

The 11 working groups that compiled the report covered such areas as basic demography, cause of death, burden of disease, disability-adjusted life expectancy, health inequalities, responsiveness of the system to the needs of the people, fairness of financial contribution, health systems preferences, national health accounts and profiles, performance analysis and basic economic data.

Unfortunately, in this snapshot of the health systems of member states, that is the World Health Report, the health and development situation that countries such as South Africa faced at liberation, six years ago in our case, and the extraordinary progress that has been made, often in the teeth of ferocious opposition from vested groups whom I shall not name, are all totally lost in that methodology. And unfortunately the complexities and erudite analyses are completely buried by the headline figure of level of attainment which all the newspapers gleefully quote.

Unfortunately, I have to say that this is a vicious kick in the teeth for those at grass-roots level and above who have fought tirelessly and selflessly to bring equitable health care to the people. The beneficiaries of the programmes, however, are only too aware of where they come from, how far they have got and where they have got.

I live in Pretoria. Only 25km from the Union Buildings there is a place called Makaunyana, beyond Winterveld, the people there never saw a doctor all their lives. Often they were lucky to see a nurse. There was a clinic there which had been started by the Roman Catholic Church, which was always in danger of being closed. For the first time, there is a clinic there, a primary health care clinic. The people there know this. [Applause.]

Health education is given and there are opportunities to make healthy choices. For instance, the chance to take control of their own bodies has been given to women. Now these are the yardsticks which are used to test and to measure this country’s performance.

There is also the protection for children from pernicious and deceitful advertising that glamourises a lethal habit such as smoking cigarettes, and freedom from being poisoned by other people’s smoke. Access to doctors is now a reality in rural areas, through community service schemes. There is rational prescribing through the essential drug list, which is there in every clinic and community centre and which I saw even on the outskirts of Durban recently. Some members do not even go to such places. [Interjections.]

We have also seen the disappearance, increasingly, of the pathetic pictures of children dying of diarrhoeal diseases.

Now these are the incidents that are being used to test this country. That information was not always available to the World Health Organisation because there was no sufficient consultation. They used country representatives, rather than the statistics at the Department of Health and what the people have experienced at grass-root level.

What I am saying is that there is much that we have achieved which, unfortunately, has not been captured in the report of the World Health Organisation. But inspite of that we received this health report, because we back in the international community and can interact and be judged like other countries. [Interjections.] But, before I sit down, I want to say that they must release the results of the reduction in prices, which is claimed to have happened. They must tell us when this happened, because the Minister was at the meeting on the 28 September. And even at that meeting in Geneva there was no reduction of prices. They should not live in fairyland and should come back to mother earth. [Applause.] [Time expired.]

Debate concluded.

                       TOURISM AMENDMENT BILL

            (Election of Members of Mediation Committee)

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! Hon members, could you take your seats please and stop talking. Hon Tony Leon, we are on a different item and we also expect your participation in this.

On 13 October 2000 the House considered the Tourism Amendment Bill as amended by the National Council of Provinces, by adopting the Report of the Portfolio Committee on Environmental Affairs and Tourism. The House refused to pass the Bill as amended by the NCOP, that is Bill [B 50D-99]. The Bill, as passed by the National Assembly and the amending Bill passed by the NCOP, were therefore referred to the Mediation Committee on 13 October 2000.

In terms of section 78 of the Constitution, read with the National Assembly Rules 225 and 226, nine members of the National Assembly must be elected by the House to serve on the Mediation Committee. According to the formula contained in the Rules, six members must be from the ANC and the remaining three from the DP, IFP and the New NP respectively. The members must be nominated by their respective parties. Parties may also nominate alternate members for election.

Nominations were made as follows:

On the nomination of Mr J H Momberg (on behalf of the Chief Whip of the Majority Party), the following members of the African National Congress were elected: Mr T M Goniwe; Mr M U Kalako; Mr M T Masutha; Ms S B Nqodi; Mr R K September; Ms M Verwoerd.

On the nomination of Mr D H M Gibson, Ms J A Semple and Mr M L da Camara (alternate) of the Democratic Party were elected.

On the nomination of Mr E J Lucas, Mrs L R Mbuyazi of the Inkatha Freedom Party was elected.

On the nomination of Mr D M Bakker, Mrs M E Olckers and Mr J W le Roux (alternate) of the New National Party were elected.

CONSIDERATION OF REPORT OF AD HOC COMMITTEE ON PAN-AFRICAN PARLIAMENT

Dr F N GINWALA: Chairperson and hon members …

An HON MEMBER: Order! [Laughter.]

Dr F N GINWALA: Chairperson, we might remind the House that members have to wait before they call me to order! [Laughter.]

It was the lure of exploiting the wealth of our continent under white hegemony that inspired Cecil Rhodes to dream of a Cape to Cairo link. More than half a century later, it led to the notion that was promoted by P W Botha of a constellation of African states in Southern Africa.

For the African people, the cause of African unity has been a noble and liberating one - reflected in the Pan African Congress at the turn of the century and shortly thereafter, by Pixley ka Seme calling for the unity of the African people to prevent further conquest and dispossession and later, by the founders of the ANC calling for an inclusive society in a united, nonracial South Africa.

This liberating concept has been dominant on the continent and was expressed at the All African People’s Congress called by Nkwame Nkrumah, and the formation of the Organisation of African Unity with a commitment to liberate the entire continent from colonialism.

No people have more reason to appreciate the value of African unity than we South Africans. The end of apartheid and the establishment of this democratic Parliament came about through the support given to our struggle by African countries, including the pressure exerted by a united Africa on those who continued to support the apartheid regime for so long.

As the frontiers of colonial rule receded, the focus of the Organisation of African Unity shifted from liberation to development. The declaration on the political and economic situation in Africa and the African Charter for Popular Participation in Development and Transformation were adopted in 1990, and a range of instruments in the years thereafter.

Three months ago, African heads of states agreed to establish an African union with a Pan-African Parliament. Today, globalisation propels Africa towards greater economic and political unity. For developed countries, globalisation offers promise. For debt-ridden and poverty-stricken economies, globalisation can be a threat to survival.

While every other region of the world has made progress over the last two decades, the income per head in Africa as a whole is lower than what it was in 1980. Faced with a trading system which insists on transnational capital having carte blanche, African countries are increasingly recognising that they will have to stand together if they are to defend or advance their own interests.

As individual nation-states with artificial borders, they are too easily picked-off or played against each other by the corporations and global accountants in a postcolonial version of divide-and-rule.

Both the threat and the example of the European Union have given the idea of an African Union new impetus. By the year 2050, Africa will have a population of one billion people, a demographic giant. An African bloc that brings together the mineral wealth and offshore oil fields of sub-Saharan Africa and the oil producers in the Maghreb and in Nigeria would, indeed, be a global force to be heeded.

In all the development in the last few decades, the voices of the people of Africa, articulated through their elected representatives in parliament, have been absent until now. Since the Pan-African Parliament was first mooted, parliaments of the SADC region have resolutely maintained that parliamentarians must be involved in its creation, and our voice is finally being heeded.

I wish to express our appreciation to our Minister of Foreign Affairs for her consistent support that the voice of parliaments must enter this debate.

The OAU has convened a meeting of African parliamentarians next week to finalise and submit to the Council of Ministers a protocol establishing a Pan-African Parliament.

The task is not simply a technical one of drafting rules and procedures. The principles have been spelt out in the report before us. But we also need to consider carefully the nature of the institution we want to create, taking account of political reality and laying sound foundations so that, one day, this institution can grow into a parliament of all the people of Africa, in the truest sense of the word. Much more will be needed to be done, however, before that can be realised.

Africa has witnessed a number of attempts at union between countries, motivated by idealism, but frequently hastily conceived and ill-prepared, often built on the shifting sounds of political rhetoric, and blown asunder by the harsh winds of political reality. Creating a continental union and its institutions is a far greater challenge, but the need was never more greater. The development and strengthening of African unity needs to go hand in hand with the building of institutions.

In doing so, we will have to recognise and take account of the racial, ethnic, religious, political, linguistic and cultural diversity of our continent, the differing colonial experiences and the levels of political and economic development. It will not be enough to simply acknowledge this. More importantly, we have to respect this diversity.

Apartheid projected this country as a part of Europe, rather than a African country. This has left its imprint, as is visible in much of the public discourse. We need to educate, redefine and correct our own perceptions as Africans and, if I may presume to say, to be less arrogant as we look at the rest of the continent, for we have much to learn.

South Africans are justly proud of our Constitution and our democracy, but we have no universal or perfect answer. After all, we have a long way to go before this institution is fully representative of our population. For a start, we need more representatives from the rural areas, trade unions and business, and more young people and, at least, 80 to 90 more women. In many other ways, we have yet to expand the democratic content of this institution.

Our democracy is based on the Westminister system, and this is not necessarily the best. After a degree of hesitation, the no- party system of Uganda has been accepted by the Commonwealth as providing a democratic parliament. Elsewhere, we might find other models. What will be important for the Pan-African Parliament is not to be prescriptive, but to build it on universal principles which, we accept, can be applied differently in various countries.

The most important role of the Pan-African parliament in the immediate future must be to provide a forum for free and open debate on a range of issues, including the African condition and possible solutions, the relief of poverty and the management of globalisation.

The parliament can serve to develop a common understanding of Africa and our common future and, thereby, help to strengthen economic ties and relations. Our dialogue can inform and create a culture of human rights and peace and educate people on the resolution of difference and conflict through discussion and negotiation rather than violence and war. We can contribute to the creation of stability and the prevention of war.

Importantly, such a forum would strengthen and spread democracy, reinforcing the will of African leaders to remove from their midst those who come to power through military coups, or abuse and manipulate power for personal gain. The Pan-African Parliament could protect the rights and freedoms of the African people and raise a collective voice to gaurd, develop and defend democracy and its institutions. There is much that we can do.

Today this House must, I submit, express its support for the establishment of the Pan-African Parliament, and commit itself to our full co-operation and participation in it. [Applause.]

Mr C NQAKULA: Mr Chairperson and hon members, the ANC is committed to the ideal of the African Renaissance. Millions of other Africans support this. Consequently, we see the establishment of the Pan-African Parliament as an additional building block towards the fulfilment of the vision of the African century.

As South Africans we should welcome the new emergence of a structure that will provide us with a new platform to advance the cause for democratic engagement between Africa’s peoples. The fight to establish peace, stability and sustainable development on the African continent will need a co-ordinated approach. All of us will need to work together to attain the objectives of the African Renaissance.

Since 1994 South Africa has argued for the transformation of some of the key structures internationally, that impact on the lives of people, like the UN and its various organs and the OAU. The decision to phase out the OAU and establish the African union is a response to the need for better unity and political cohesion to address the new challenges facing the continent. We must prepare ourselves well as South Africans to respond appropriately, understanding our role in bringing in the new arrangements.

The ANC believes that the Pan-African Parliament is both an opportunity and a challenge to fully integrate ourselves into the political and economic development of the continent. The Pan-African Parliament will provide us with the crucial platform to discuss our relations with the rest of the continent. There is a lot that we will learn from Africa, parts of which have been independent for several decades compared to our six years of freedom. The oft-repeated view that we are the only light in an otherwise dark continent is erroneous. I repeat: There is a lot that we will learn from Africa. Africa will also learn a lot from us, given our negotiated settlement and the experience we gained in uniting former oppressors and freedom fighters to draw a new constitution to establish democracy in South Africa. However, we are not only a repository for democracy in Africa. Like elsewhere in the continent, we were colonised. The colonisers raped our land and our raw materials. Our way of life was destroyed and we were oppressed as slaves or as voiceless people with no rights in the land of their birth.

The independence of a continent, which was brought about in many instances by years of intense liberation wars could not address all the evils of colonialism despite the new freedom it secured. Fortunately for posterity, evidence is being uncovered in many historical sites in some parts of Africa to prove how advanced some of our communities were on the continent.

However, we should not blame all our weaknesses on colonisation. There is much that has been done by Africans themselves that has further pushed the continent into an abyss of greed and corruption, where the elite design better lives for themselves through easy access to national resources and allow a slide in the standards of living for the poor.

Indeed, Africa should blame herself for the conflicts resulting in the many wars on the continent. Greedy and corrupt leaders perpetuate these conflicts to remain in power and continue to loot the national resources.

Of course, the avarice of some of Africa’s leaders is not the only factor that has caused Africa’s economic problems. Many countries inherited economies that were in decline following years of systematic mismanagement by the colonial authorities. The two decades leading up to the advent of democracy in 1994 in South Africa were characterised by an economy whose growth remained at negative levels compared to the population growth. This led, among other things, to increasing unemployment.

In 1994 between a quarter and a third of people fit for work were unemployed. There were also major sections of all social sectors that the economy could not support. Consequently, poor people were getting poorer. Africa has also been a victim of the structural adjustment programmes of the IMF and the World Bank. Their loans have not helped the continent out of rampant poverty, deprivation and underdevelopment. Africa in fact is tottering under the heavy burden of a debt it owes to the developed world.

Many countries on the continent cannot service that debt. Neo-colonialism has taken over where colonialism left off and poverty continues unabated. All manner of diseases continue to ravage the African population. Africa needs to unite, therefore, under the aegis of the structures for democracy that the continent has and intends to establish, such as the Pan-African Parliament, to further the struggle to change for the better her contribution to and benefit from the economy of the world. As part of a programme of united action, Africa needs to struggle to free herself from the role she played in the past as a preserve for colonialism.

The Pan-African Parliament will create space for discussion and the formulation of possible strategies to address the conflicts that have gripped the continent in an orgy of bloodletting in countries such as Angola and the Democratic Republic of Congo, just to mention a couple. It should be borne in mind, though, that the parliament would be consultative and will not have legislative powers. Of course, it will not replace efforts at other levels to correct some of the weaknesses from which the African continent suffers. For instance, it will not attempt to take over the peace negotiations conducted by such luminaries as our former President Nelson Mandela and Botswana Sir Ketumile Masire.

The African parliamentarians who represent their nations at the Pan-African Parliament should use that structure to share their experiences in building democracy. They should help each other to build, on the African continent, democratic political dispensations that would be people-centred. They should share the benefits of Africa’s knowledge systems that were built over many years in the fields of art, culture and technology. They should discuss ways and means to help our people to overcome some of the chauvinism that still creates conditions for xenophobia, tribalism and racism. In a nutshell, they should discuss and plan how to create a continent that would be free of conflict, ignorance, disease, starvation, homelessness, joblessness and corruption. [Applause.]

Mr N J CLELLAND: Chairperson, Africa desperately needs vigorous economic growth, inherent to the bedrock principles of democracy, and an environment of expanding opportunity for all. To the extent that the Pan-African Parliament can, and we generally hope will, help to achieve this end, the DP and the DA supports the establishment of such a parliament. To this end we particularly endorse comments and amendments made by the Department of Foreign Affairs in their revised draft of the annotated version of the Pan- African Parliament protocol. Their suggested additions to the preamble that focus on the promotion of democratic priniciples and the protection of human rights would surely add value not only to the protocol document, but to the concept of a Pan-African Parliament itself.

Some people, I am quite sure, will take issue on the question of democracy. They will ask: How do you define a democracy? Surely there are different variations of democracy. Democracy is subjective. Frankly, that kind of commentator is at best naive, and at worst, politically manipulative and mischievous.

Universal adult suffrage, regular free and fair elections, respect for human rights and the separation of powers in a free society are the absolute basic minimums for any democracy. A Pan-African Parliament must demand this as a precondition for membership. Anything less would be to the detriment of our continent.

Now is not the time, and a new Pan-African Parliament is not the place to rally around tyrants in a misguided show of African solidarity against the world.

Muammar Gaddafi has been at the forefront of the charge to establish a Pan- African Parliament. But Libya, under Gaddafi, is a perfect example of a state that should be banned from membership of a Pan-African parliament. [Interjections.] Omran al-Fitouri and 23 others accused of taking part in opposition activities were sentenced to life imprisonment in 1991, following a trial that failed to meet international standards of free and fair trial. Sound familiar? [Interjections.]

Amnesty International, in its 1998 report entitled Libya: Gross Human Rights Violations Amid Secrecy and Isolation'', condemns Libyan law, which authorises collective punishment for communities deemed to have helped opposition activists. This includes cutting off of water and electricity to so-calledguilty’’ villages, depriving so-called ``guilty’’ villages of subsidised food, petrol and public services, and transferring development projects to other parts of the country.

If we allow the inclusion of a 30-year-old tyranny into a Pan-African Parliament, let alone allow it to be the driving force behind it, it will be nothing less than expensive sham. [Interjections.]

The slow, stable, fragmented cold war system that dominated this world since 1945 has been replaced by a new, very greased, interconnected system

• we have spoken about it today - called ``globalisation.’’

The main thrust behind globalisation is the free market and healthy competition. As Thomas Friedman in his book ``The Lexus and the Olive Tree,’’ eloquently puts it:

The symbol of the cold war was a wall which divided everybody. The symbol of globalisation is the Worldwide Web which unites everyone.

The cold war was about Einstein’s equation, which is e=mc2. Globalisation is about Moore’s law which states that the computing power of silicon chips will double every 18 to 24 months. The cold war was about how big is your missile?'' Globalisation is abouthow fast is your modem?’’

Africa must embrace the free market and competition, and declare proudly and loudly that Africa is open for business. Africa is a world-class choice for direct foreign investment. Clem Sunter, in his book and presentation entitled, Never mind the millennium. What about the next 24 hours?, said `` … as opposed to the kind of `rolling mass action’ we see so much of, what Africa need is rolling individual action.

Entrepreneurs working in SMMEs - energetic, risk-taking opportunists - are the future. They will build up the South African and the African economies from the bottom up, and make us the kind of global competitors we know we can be.

India is a country that faces the same social problems that many African countries face. India has become the back office of the world. Swissair has moved its entire accounting division from Switzerland to India where there are low costs for IT professionals, and it makes good business sense. In today’s digital world, Swissair can have its financial department in Bern or Mumbai as easily as it can have it in Bloemfontein and Bamako. [Interjections.] Africa will never … [Interjections] … reach its potential without this sort of economic growth and development. For a Pan-African parliament to be relevant and useful, it must embrace the realities of globalisation. It must become an engine room and a motivator for real economic development.

Article 4 of the treaty that established the African Economic Community is a good place for a new Pan-African Parliament to begin, in terms of economic growth.

A Pan-African Parliament must promote an economic growth and development in order to increase economic self-reliance and an indigenous and self- sustained development. It must also promote the liberalisation of trade and actively motivate nation states to empower and encourage entrepreneurs. If it is going to be a talkshop, it must be the kind of talkshop and talk that Africa needs.

A Pan-African Parliament must also not allow us, for even one second, to deflect attention from important issues here in our country and in our region. The founding treaty of SADC mentions:

… the need to involve the peoples of the region centrally in the process of development and integration, particularly through the guarantees of democratic rights, observance of human rights and the rule of law.

The question that must be asked is: Have the countries that comprise SADC, either individually or collectively, done enough to ensure that this democratic commitment, which is central to regional development and integration, becomes a reality?

Despite our problems, a zone of relatively progressive democratic and economic governance has emerged in the triangle of South Africa, Botswana and Mozambique. The danger within SADC lies in the quadrangle of the authoritarian and militaristic regimes that are constituted by Angola, the Democratic Republic of Congo, Namibia and Zimbabwe.

SADC is riddled with as much potential as there are problems. We also have serious issues facing us right here in South Africa. Massive unemployment, rampant HIV/Aids and spiraling crime are our biggest and most important challenges. As parliamentarians, we must focus on the elimination of these serious problems.

A Pan-African Parliament can, potentially, if properly constituted and correctly focused, help each individual African nation-state to develop and grow. It can also help to inject vitality and sanity into SADC. It can do all these things if it embraces economic growth and real democracy. [Applause.]

Mr E J LUCAS: Madam Speaker, hon members, the leaders of the African continent have long recognised that co-operation and integration among African countries in the economic, social and cultural fields were indispensable to the accelerated transformation and sustained development of the African continent. This commitment was enunciated in the charter that established the Organisation for African Unity in 1963, and was further expanded in the OAU Summits of 1973 and 1976 and the Monrovia Declaration of 1979.

Further impetus was added in 1980, when the OAU Extraordinary Summit adopted the Lagos Plan of Action. In this plan, African leaders stated their individual and collective commitment to promoting the economic integration of Africa as a continent. African leaders also committed themselves to establishing national, regional and sub-regional institutions that would become the main vehicles to achieve the ultimate goal of a dynamic and interdependent African economy, thus paving the way for the eventual establishment of the African Economic Community.

The commitments of the Lagos Plan of Action found concrete expression in Abuja, Nigeria, in June 1991 when the OAU Heads of State and Government signed the treaty that established the African economic Community. The African Economic Community Treaty has been in operation since May 1994 when the required number of instruments of ratification for its coming into force were deposited with the Secretary-General of the Organisation for African Unity and African Economic Community.

Articles 6 and 88 of the Abuja Treaty determine that the African Economic Community will be established in six stages of variable duration over a transition period not exceeding 34 years. The establishment of the Pan- African Parliament, as one of the components of the African Economic Community, falls in Stage 6 of this process.

An ad hoc committee of this House was established to consider a draft protocol to the Abuja treaty, whereby the Pan-African Parliament would be established. Its report on the draft portfolio is before us today. The IFP supports the consensus report of the ad hoc committee, which contains nine points relating to the principles of the protocol. I do not wish to repeat all nine points here, but would like to comment on a few of the more important ones.

Firstly, the Pan-African Parliament should be a deliberative body without any law-making powers. It should be obvious that giving a supranational body legislative powers would possibly infringe on the sovereignty of member states and the legislative authority of their parliaments. It is therefore clear that the Pan-African Parliament should not have law-making powers, but this brings with it the danger that the Pan-African Parliament might become little more than a talk shop, using scarce resources. I am not suggesting that consultation and debate is worthless, but great care should be taken to avoid a hollow, useless institution that would be more ceremonial than anything else.

Secondly, the Pan-African Parliament should be composed of eight members from each member state, appointed by each national parliament from its ranks on the basis of a broad representivity with a minimum of three women members. A number of comments are relevant in this case.

First, appointment to the Pan-African Parliament from national parliaments should be the guiding principle. But what will happen in the case of member states that do not have national parliaments or any form of elective representation? Will they be excluded from the Pan-African Parliament, or will another vehicle have to be found in their case? The protocol aimed at establishing the Pan-African Parliament is silent on these practical difficulties.

Second, the minimum of three women per delegation is supported, but there is a danger that this could infringe on the cultural tradition of some member states. The question is whether all member states would be able to comply with this requirement and, if not, whether they would or could be forced to comply.

Thirdly, some general objectives of the Pan-African Parliament should be inserted in the draft protocol. The IFP agrees with the statement, but it is our contention that more clarity could have been provided on the nature of the general objectives that need to be included in the protocol. At the very least, the objectives should be in line with the fundamental objectives of the treaty that established the African Economic Community.

Fourthly, direct elections of members of the Pan-African Parliament would not be appropriate. We fully agree with the statement. Continental elections for the Pan-African Parliament are unrealistic as is the idea that uniform electoral laws would be created within a reasonable time period, when representatives of governments and parliaments are not common to all the member states.

The IFP supports the report of the ad hoc committee on the Pan-African Parliament that is being considered in this House today. It is our fervent hope that the Pan-African Parliament will be able to play a significant role in the integration of the African continent. There is no doubt that this integration will assist Africans to assist themselves through economic development, social co-operation and sharing a common political vision for our continent. [Applause.]

Dr B L GELDENHUYS: Madam Speaker, the New NP and the DP, and the DA that is currently giving the ANC a hard time in the municipal elections … [Interjections] … support the establishment of a Pan-African Parliament which will be a deliberative body without law-making powers. We also support the report of the ad hoc committee. There is, indeed, a need for African parliamentarians to develop common positions on the huge challenges facing the continent. If Africa were committed to the promotion of democracy, as it should be, then article 3 of the draft protocol to the treaty establishing the Pan-African Parliament should be amended in order to ensure that all delegations also include members of opposition parties. The voice of the opposition in Africa, frequently wrongly branded as enemies of the state, has been disregarded too long, and this is only to the detriment of the continent.

A parliament without an opposition is in any case a contradition in terms. What is really a contradiction in terms is the fact that the Pan-African Parliament is actually the brainchild of a dictator par excellence, and my colleague in the DP referred to that in an excellent speech. Col Muammar Gaddafi of Libya is actually the father of this African Parliament in its present form. The Abuja Treaty originally provided for the establishment of a Pan-African Parliament during the sixth stage of a process scheduled to last 34 years. The African Parliament, in terms of the Abuja Treaty, was only supposed to be established once regional economic communities, a customs union at continental level, an African common market, a Pan-African market and monetary union, an African central bank, and a single African currency were firmly established.

Then suddenly last year, at Sirte in Libya, the African heads of state, apparently inspired by Col Gaddafi, decided to replace the Organisation of African Unity with the African Union, and simultaneously to fast-track the establishment of the Pan-African Parliament, now provided for not in terms of the Abuja Treaty, but in terms of article 17 of the constitutive act of the African Union which takes precedence over the Abuja Treaty.

This is simply mind-boggling. The man who recently said, ``Africa needs food and medicine, it does not need lessons on democracy,’’ has now become the founding father of the Pan-African Parliament.

The Sirte declaration leaves no one in the dark in this regard and I quote:

In our deliberations, we have been inspired by the important proposals submitted by Col Gaddafi, leader of the great Al Fatah Libyan revolution.

However, if the Pan-African Parliament wants to lay claim to any credibility, despite its dubious origin, adherence to democratic principles should be a prerequisite for membership, and Mr Clelland referred to that.

Dictatorships, ironically such as Libya and quasi-democracies, should not be allowed to join the Pan-African Parliament. President Mbeki set the tone when he suggested that rulers who came to power through the barrel of a gun should be barred from all OAU activities. Current members of the OAU and the African Union should not be allowed to automatically become members of the Pan-African Parliament.

The Pan-African Parliament should actually have stricter criteria for membership than the Organisation of African Unity, or the envisaged African Union, otherwise it will ridicule the very concept of democracy. The argument, also raised during the discussions in the committee, that democratic principles cannot be a prerequisite for membership because there are different definitions of democracy, does not hold water. [Interjections.]

Democratic principles, as is the case with human rights, are universal and constitute the following: governing by consent of the people, respect for the rule of law, and upholdment of human rights. Adherence to these principles could and should, therefore, serve as a prerequisite for membership of the Pan-African Parliament. Second-class democracies are no longer acceptable for Africa.

The hon speaker referred to the fact that the no-party parliament of Uganda is, in fact, a democracy. I think a no-party parliament is actually also a contradiction in terms. [Interjections.] The de facto replacement of the Abuja Treaty by the Constitutive Act of the African Union, although it is supposed to be a step forward is, in my mind, a step backwards.

It is actually a revival of Nkruma’s political kingdom to the detriment of the economic kingdom without which the African renaissance will never materialise. If one analyses the objectives of the Constitutive Act of the African Union and the Abuja Treaty - hon members should please go and analyse these objectives - one will see that it is a shift away from the economic goals embodied in the Abuja Treaty to mainly political objectives contained in the Constitutive Act.

Natuurlik hang daar ook groot vraagtekens oor die inwerkingstelling van die Abuja-verdrag. Dit staan egter soos ‘n paal bo water dat sterk streeksekonomieë, gekenmerk deur vryhandelsgebiede, Afrika se enigste behoud is in ‘n mededingende wêreldekonomie waar globalisering hoogty vier.

  Eweneens staan dit soos ‘n paal bo water dat ‘n Pan-Afrika-parlement, as eindproduk van ‘n geïntegreerde-ekonomiese gemeenskap in Afrika, soos voorsien deur die Abuja-verdrag, ‘n veel gewigtiger instelling sou wees as die politieke praathuis wat nou op grond van ‘n diktator se inisiatief tot stand gebring word.

Desondanks steun die Nuwe NP, die DP, en die Demokratiese Alliansie, wat loshande die munisipale verkiesing in die Wes-Kaap gaan wen, die stigting van ‘n Pan-Afrika-parlement. [Applous.] (Translations of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)

[Of course, there is great uncertainty about the implementation of the Abuja Treaty. However, it is an incontrovertible fact that strong regional economies, characterized by free trade areas, will be Africa’s only hope of salvation in a competitive world economy in which globalisation reigns supreme.

Similarly, it is an incontrovertible fact that a Pan-African Parliament as the ultimate outcome of an integrated economic community in Africa, as envisaged in the Abuja Treaty, would be a much more important institution than the political talkshop which is now being established on the initiative of a dictator.

Nevertheless, the New NP, the DP and the Democratic Alliance, which is going to win the municipal election in the Western Cape hands down, support the establishment of a Pan-African Parliament. [Applause.]]

Mr T ABRAHAMS: Madam Speaker, the initiative taken by the Speaker of the South African Parliament in calling this debate, derives from a very rich commitment and determination of the people on our continent to establish a Pan-African socio political forum as the basis for the exchange of ideas and strategies in die development of Africa as a continent.

Underlying this commitment are serious resolutions such as the 1990 declaration adopted in Addis Ababa, the 1991 treaty establishing the African Economic Community, the agenda for action endorsed in June 1995 in Addis Ababa, the Algiers Declaration which affirms the commitments which were signed in 1999 and, finally, the Sert Declaration at the Socialist People’s Libyan Arab Jamahiriya signed in September 1999, which called for the speedy establishment of the institutions provided for in the Abuja Treaty and which includes the establishment of the Pan-African Parliament by the year 2000.

We must, as a people, be proud of the role that hon Madam Speaker has played in the involvement of South Africa in these honourable continental undertakings. Our country has correctly demonstrated its commitment to the spirit and vision of continentalism in addressing common African problems. It is this spirit of solidarity that will strengthen our efforts, variously and collectively, to interact with the international community in a manner that protects and promotes true African interests.

That these common objectives are seen to be most likely achieveable through a parliamentary process is evidence of Africa’s commitment to democracy. It is clear from the abovementioned declarations and treaties that the idea of a Pan-African Parliament is not a passing thought or a simple gimmick. Neither is it a party-political tool to be used for narrow, parochial games.

Rather, it is firmly based on the conviction that the establishment of a Pan-African Parliament will ensure, effectively, the full participation of the African peoples in the economic development and the integration of the continent. This is all the more of crucial importance given the ugly face of globalisation and the monopolisation of agenda-setting therein by the rich countries from the north. Every effort must be made to strengthen the Pan-African parliamentary system once it is established.

It is evident from the report of the Ad Hoc Committee on Pan-African Parliament of the National Assembly of the South African Parliament that we attach a high value to inclusivity. The committee’s proposal that an equal number of delegates from every member state be appointed to this Pan- African Parliament is commendable because it promotes the principles of inclusivity and egalite. Inclusivity is a useful vehicle for the cross- pollination of ideas and practices.

Contrary to the position held by others, such as the DP and the NP, old or new, the UDM foresees no problem in countries such as Libya and Angola being party to this institution. In fact, indeed, we believe that they are an integral part of the creation of a Pan-African Parliament. We must get rid of this exclusivity which is so characteristic of what held back this country for so many decades. All true Africans accept this reasoning.

Democracy is powerful enough to influence those who do not practice it. How does one change people’s thinking if one does not speak with them? Speakers touched on the vital need for South Africa to avoid, at all costs, being arrogant in the role we have to play. The phasing out of the OAU and its replacement by an African union is a giant step for Africa, and this transition must be carefully nurtured. While South Africa has, indeed, a contribution to make, it must never presume that it has a monopoly on solutions. There is a lot to learn from our continental neighbours, if the continent is to become the global force that it deserves to be. The UDM lends its full support to the report of the Ad Hoc Committee on Pan-African Parliament. [Applause.]

Mr L M GREEN: Chairperson, hon Ministers and members, the object of the Pan- African Parliament is to ensure that the peoples of Africa are fully involved in the economic development and integration of the continent. This is, indeed, a noble ideal.

In September 1999, at the fourth extraordinary summit of the OAU/AEC in Sirte, Libya, heads of state and government adopted the Sirte Declaration, wherein African leaders decided to establish an African union by the year

1. A year later, however, we read in The Economist, dated 13 October, about increased violence against black people in Libya, the same country. This is stark, crude racism which must be condemned in the same manner we have condemned racism in South Africa.

It was reported that hundreds of thousands of black immigrants were herded into trucks and buses, driven to a town south of Tripoli and dumped into the desert. The article explained how the president of Ghana flew to Tripoli and brought back home 250 Ghanaian workers.

Colonel Gaddafi is a strong supporter of a Pan-African Parliament. He heads Africa’s richest state in terms of income per person. But Libyans, feeding their families on monthly salaries of only $150, see their money squandered on foreign adventures, the latest of which is Colonel Gaddafi’s Pan-African policy.

Africa has a social and moral obligation to get its house in order, but this cannot start unless we govern our own countries according to principles of human dignity, shared responsibility, co-operative relations and democratic values.

Can we obtain these objectives through the establishment of a Pan-African Parliament? The ACDP thinks: not so! A Pan-African Parliament in the hands of a dictator could be a disaster. The ACDP is, therefore, not in support of the establishment of a Pan-African Parliament. It is our firm resolution that the objectives of the Pan-African parliament could have been established within the broader framework of the OAU. [Time expired.]

Dr P W A MULDER: Mr Chairperson, if one studies the state of the world politically after the Cold War, Africa is not important any more, and is being marginalised by the big political powers. If one studies the world economically after the Cold War, Africa is not a priority, and is being marginalised by the big economic forces in the world. What do I deduce from these two lessons? Firstly, I deduce that Africa must solve its own problems and look after itself and, secondly, that in establishing a Pan-African Parliament or any other structure Africa may not fail again.

Teen hierdie agtergrond steun die VF die verslag van die ad hoc-komitee vir ‘n pan-Afrika-parlement, maar ons móét waarsku dat om ‘n suksesvolle, stabiele pan-Afrika-parlement in werking te stel, daar heelwat voorwaardes is wat ek nie almal kan behandel nie. Die een is dat ‘n mens eers suksesvolle en stabiele state moet hê, want die state is die boustene van so ‘n parlement. Sekerlik is Angola nie so ‘n stabiele staat nie. Sekerlik is die Demokratiese Republiek van Kongo nie so ‘n stabiele staat nie, en so kan ek ‘n klomp ander noem.

Kom ons leer by die wêreld en gaan kyk hoe hulle geslaag het waar daar sukses was hiermee. Die Europese Unie, wat op ‘n ekonomiese grondslag gebou is en daarna die Europese Parlement tot gevolg gehad het, is ‘n goeie voorbeeld waaruit ‘n mens wel kan lesse leer. Wat is hulle resep? Terwyl Europa ekonomies al sterker saamgewerk het en ekonomies een geword het, het daar in die afgelope vyf jaar 14 nuwe state in Europa ontstaan.

Terselfdertyd word politieke mag in lande soos België en Spanje al hoe meer gedesentraliseer na provinsies, taalstreke en outonome gebiede om politieke stabiliteit te verseker. Agb lede kan gerus John Naisbitt se nuutste boek, Global Paradox, gaan lees, waarin hy hierdie eienaardigheid bespreek. Hy sê op bladsy 11:

All over the world people are agreeing to trade more freely with each other, and all over the world people are asserting their political independence, their distinctiveness.

Ons stem saam met die verslag soos dit hier staan, en spesifiek met paragraaf 2(1) wat sê dat dit net ‘n beraadslagende liggaam moet wees. Om egter stabiliteit te kry in state, en dit geld ook vir Suid-Afrika, moet politieke mag ook gedesentraliseer word en na onder afgewentel word. Daarna kan ‘n mens ekonomies saamwerk. Dit is die resep tans in die wêreld, en ons moenie daarvan wegskram nie. Ek vra agb lede weer eens om Global Paradox van John Naisbitt te gaan lees, waarin hy die kwessie bespreek. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)

[Against this background the FF supports the report of the ad hoc committee on a Pan-African Parliament, but we must warn that to put a successful, stable Pan-African Parliament into operation there are quite a number of conditions, all of which I cannot deal with. The one is that one must first have successful and stable states, because the states are the building blocks of such a parliament. Certainly the Democratic Republic of Congo is not such a stable state, and so I can mention quite a few more.

Let us learn from the world and go and look at how they succeeded where they had success with this. The European Union, which is based on an economic foundation and which led to the establishment of the European Parliament, is a good example from which one can learn some lessons. What is their recipe? While Europe has co-operated more vigorously and become one economically, 14 new states have arisen in Europe during the past five years.

At the same time, in countries such as Belgium and Spain political power is becoming more decentralised to the provinces, language regions and autonomous areas to ensure political stability. Hon members should read John Naisbitt’s latest book, Global Paradox, in which he discusses this curiosity. He says on page 11:

All over the world people are agreeing to trade more freely with each other, and all over the world people are asserting their political independence, their distinctiveness.

We agree with the report as it stands, and specifically with paragraph 2(1), which says that it must be a consultative body only. However, to achieve stability in states, and this goes for South Africa too, political power must be decentralisd and devolved downwards. Afterwards one can co- operate economically. This is the recipe that is at present being followed in the world, and we should not shy away from it. I want to ask hon members once again to read Global Paradox by John Naisbitt in which he discussed the issue.]

Mr I S MFUNDISI: Madam Speaker, the peoples of Africa are becoming aware that they have a common destiny. As the cherry of the mother continent they seek a common identity. A treaty establishing the African Economic Community was signed in Abuja, Nigeria, in 1991 and sought, amongst other things, to establish the Pan-African Parliament. This is a noble step that has to be hailed by all who are interested in the welfare of Africa.

In setting up a Pan-African Parliament, the UCDP proposes that the representation by member states should take into account population density of each member state. Countries less densely populated should have fewer members. Membership to the Pan-African Parliament should take cognisance of all political parties in the parliaments of the member states, to avoid the monopoly of representation by ruling parties.

We support the proposal that members of the PAP should be members of parliament in their countries. However, the poser would be that parliaments are elected at different times and the likelihood is that non of the members of PAP may complete their proposed tenure of five years. Members of the Pan-African Parliament should be allowed to vote in their personal and independent capacity, as this allows more freedom. A common approach has to be sought in order to ensure that membership of the Pan-African Parliament is in keeping with fundamental rights in which no one is disadvantaged on grounds of gender, religion or otherwise.

Among the envisaged functions and powers, one that has to be put into practise is that which deals with the harmonisation and co-ordination of the laws of member states. The UCDP is therefore strongly against the proposal that the budget of the Pan-African Parliament should be approved by heads of state and government. Our position is that people should be given responsibility with accountability. Parliamentarians in the continent should be on the level of being able to account for their deeds.

The rotation of parliament will assist in opening the window through which member states can learn what is going on in other countries. We fully support the view that the status quo should remain in so far as the medium of communication in the Pan-African Parliament is concerned. The UCDP support the Report of the Ad Hoc Committee on Pan-African Parliament.

Mr W J SEREMANE: Madam Speaker and hon members, I wish to remind all of us that the vision and quest for a Pan-African Parliament was conceived alongside, if not within, the very movement of Pan-Africanism, which is Africa seeking to unite and rediscover herself. From the epoch of Marcus Garvey through to the era of Osagyefo Kwame Nkrumah and others up to this day, the yearning for a united Africa still lingers on, though bedevilled by Africa’s tinpot republics and torn asunder by conflict, internal and civil strife, poverty, corruption and general decline.

The existing sad state of affairs clouded Amilcar Cabral’s plea when he said:

I am a simple African who wishes only to pay his debt to his own people and to live to the full of his epoch. May we all pay our debts to our people and live fully our own time. I would also like to quote Oginga Odinga: Nkrumah talked of the problems of emancipating other African colonies, of the inspiration of Pan Africanism and his conviction of a Pan African government.

Oginga Odinga reflects on the above in his book, Not Yet Uhuru.

Our quest and search for a Pan-African government should not turn a blind eye to Africa’s problems such as the lack of a well-rooted and sustainable democracy, deep-seated ethnic prejudices, despotism, poverty, including the uphill struggle for economic development, health and social welfare relief.

What is our view of the performance of the Organisation of African Unity over the past two or three decades? Has this institution served any meaningful and effective role? Does the body need fundamental overhauling or should we put it away forever in our African museum? The immediate question seems to be whether or not the envisaged Pan-African parliament will subsume the OAU or whether it will be established side by side with the OAU.

Paul Niger, in his poem ``Je n’aime pas l’Afrique’’ made the assertion that Africa is going to speak because it is her time and turn to make demands. The sentiments expressed are quite legitimate but the hard reality is not as compatible. The myriad of problems besetting the continent have made African unity a very, very slow process and an elusive one, too.

It may be Africa’s time, and the African century, but that is no indication that it is timeous and prudent to have an African parliament now before its sovereign component parts have put their countries on a proper footing regarding democratisation, social and economic upliftment including self- reliance. In this day and age, a club of hard-working and self-sufficient participants is better than a league of beggars passing the bowl around.

It is imperative that we approach the project with great circumspection without rushing headlong into self-defeating conclusions about this very selfsame envisaged project. The general ideas of unity and co-operation are virtuous and very welcome, but these can only be realised if each of the participating sovereign countries stabilised and democratised themselves and became economically geared to achieve prosperity and self-sustenance.

The guidelines as spelt out by the Ad Hoc Committee on Pan-African Parliament should, in our view, not precede indepth discussion on the state of affairs prevailing in each of the prospective participating countries or role-players. The concerns raised in this contribution, including the proposed ad hoc committee guidelines, need further critique and fine- tuning.

The DP and its alliance partners are quite willing and prepared to participate in further exploring this project to achieve implementable outcomes that will enhance democracy, economic growth, self-reliance and development, including stability and prosperity in this continent. [Applause.]

Dr S E M PHEKO: Madam Speaker, 50 years ago, Dr Nnamdi Azikiwe of Nigeria, a great Pan-Africanist, said:

Africa will one day have a parliament of African states, a Pan-African court of justice, a Pan-African High Command and common market.

The formation of a Pan-African Parliament is not a new thing. It did not begin with Colonel Muammar Gadaffi. Pan-Africanists all over the world have worked hard for many years for the realisation of the Pan-African vision. The colonel merely reminded of it when those who in their poverty of originality and perfidious mutilation of history tried to destroy the Pan- African vision.

Africa must be reconstructed to her former beauty. The struggle to restore Africa to her destroyed glory must not be an imitation of the European Renaissance which facilitated the darkness of the transatlantic slave trade and colonialism, ravaged Africa’s riches and brainwashed Africa’s people psychologically.

As part of the unconquerable Pan-African movement, the PAC of Azania endorses the principle of establishing a Pan-African Parliament. An Africa built on the firm foundation of Pan-Africanism will have the technological capacity to process all her raw materials in Africa and export them as finished products. This will enable Africans to control their economies, banish poverty from the shores of Africa and withstand the onslaught of globalisation, which is the partnership of the rich and the poor in which western nations are riders and Africa is their horse. A divided Africa will be swallowed by this plutocracy. Without Pan-African unity as expounded by visionaries such as Nkrumah, Sobukwe, Modibo Keita and Sekou Toure, Africa’s liberation will remain a myth.

Mr M A MANGENA: Madam Speaker, there is no doubt that the draft protocol relating to the establishment of the Pan-African parliament, as it stands, raises some serious constitutional, legal, political and practical problems for this country and others on the continent.

A natural and instinctive tendency would be to hold our own constitutional and legal regime supreme, and push away at anything that seeks to alter or contaminate that regime. In the defence of our Constitution and laws, we would demand that the protocol and the Pan-African Parliament itself be shaped in such a way that they comply with our Constitution and the laws emanating from it.

Our continent, fragmented as it is into small states, for the most part with small populations settled with very low levels of infrastrucural, economic and social development, cannot be a meaningful player in the world political and economic affairs. Therefore, the establishment of the Pan- African Parliament as an important element of the economic integration of Africa is a crucial and epoch-making development for our continent.

If approached with commitment and dedication by most member countries, the Pan-African Parliament could contribute a lot towards the upliftment and improvement of the lives of the people on our continent. We should therefore be prepared, where appropriate, to subjugate some aspects of our Constitution and laws to the African Union and the Pan-African Parliament, in order to advance continental unity.

For now, Azapo believes it is appropriate that the Pan-African Parliament should have only deliberative functions, and that its members be elected by the national parliaments of member countries. But we should be prepared to give it more and more powers and functions as time goes on. It must not be a rushed job. It must be a step-by-step process. [Applause.]

Mr D A HANEKOM: Madam Speaker and hon members, I am sure we have all seen stickers saying I love Soweto'',I love Cape Town’’, I love cricket'', and so forth. The 21 members of the Ad Hoc Committee on Pan- African Parliament all have T-shirts which sayI love Africa’’. Of course, we do. We live on this continent. We love this continent. We are proud of the achievements of the African people, the beauty of the continent and its cultural richness. In the evolutionary chain, the first mammals who could be called human beings were born on this continent. The Sterkfontein area in our own country is rightfully called the cradle of humankind.

But we are also painfully aware of the widespread underdevelopment, poverty, illiteracy, disease and hunger on our own continent.

We are aware of the growing gap between the rich and the poor. In Dr Pallo Jordan’s words, during the debate on ``Making the 21st Century an African Century’’ said:

The challenge facing our continent is to pursue rapid economic growth and development while keeping faith with democratic norms and principles.

Indeed, hon members these are our challenges. Our continent was plundered and brutally exploited by centuries of colonial rule. The legacy remains with us. This is not something distant and academic. The majority of our own citizens were subjected to a special kind of colonialism which ended just six years ago. The last act of dispossessing African people of their land occured as recently as 1984 when the Magopa community were removed from their own land by the NP government. Happily, they returned to their land in 1994 under the ANC government. However, the legacy still remains with us.

We cannot blame everything on colonialism and I should not quote Pallo too selectively. He goes on to say:

Taming and reining in the rapacious indegenous elites that have plundered and continue to plunder the wealth of our continent is equally important. Stability and peace are pre-conditions for the regeneration of the African continent.

The Pan-African Parliament will be an organ of the African union. As our Speaker said, the parliamentary voice has been absent, until now. The decisions of the heads of states of Africa to establish a Pan-African Parliament creates a new avenue for parliamentarians to make a positive contribution towards the growth and development of the African continent, towards the achievement of peace and stability, and towards acceptance of democratic norms and principles.

Members of this Parliament under the leadership of our Speaker and the Chairperson of the NCOP will participate in a meeting of African parliamentarians which will be held in Pretoria next week, where the protocol to establish the Pan-African Parliament will be finalised. The deliberations of the ad hoc committee and the guidelines contained in the table report will assist the South African delegation in their participation in this meeting and in our attempts to enhance and strengthen the protocol.

Important contributions and proposed amendments to the draft protocol include the proposal that at least three women should be included among the eight members from each member state. If this is accepted, it would send a powerful signal to the whole world, and it would be a strong assertion and recognition of the role of women in our continent. [Applause.]

We discussed the seat of this Parliament. Some members suggested Cape Town, and some felt it should be Kimberley. But the consensus view was that the assembly of heads of states of the African Union should determine the seat of the Parliament. So, bad news for those from Kimberley, but there is still a little bit of hope left. [Interjections.] …

Mr J H MOMBERG: It should be Pofadder.

AN HON MEMBER: Welkom.

Mr D A HANEKOM: As the last minute elected chairperson of this ad hoc committee, I would like to thank all committee members for their valuable contributions to the deliberations of this committee. We were assisted by the Speaker, the Deputy Speaker and the Chairperson of the NCOP all of whom understood the context and the issues pertinent to the establishment of the Pan-African Parliament a lot better than the chair did.

The Minister was ever available to share her thoughts and views with us. Her departmental officials as well as the law advisors of Parliament and the Department of Justice put a lot of thought and hard work into the comments and suggestions with which they provided us and they were useful. But, ultimately, it is the work of the committee that will enable the South African parliamentary delegation to go to the Pretoria meeting well prepared.

In conclusion, I would like to quote another member of Parliament, the hon Rev Zondi, also in the debate ``Making the 21st Century the African Century’’. He said:

We welcome this debate as a small but important step in the long journey we have to traverse towards the realisation of our highly cherished goal of enabling Africa to take her rightful and dignified place among the continents of the world. The time has come for the continent of Africa, indeed the time has come for us in Africa, to begin to define that journey which we will all have to take towards making Africa a dignified place under the sun. [Applause.]

The MINISTER OF FOREIGN AFFAIRS: Madam Speaker, hon members, I thank the committee and its chair for inviting me to participate in this debate. Thanks to the technology I was able to participate in some of the discussions through video conferencing even if I was not here physically.

I would just like to make a few comments regarding this Pan-African Parliament and maybe make a few clarifications on what some of the speakers have said. The movement for continental unity indeed began when those eminent and distinguished Africans gathered in the epoch-making Pan-African Congress in London in 1900. It did not start in Sert. Of course, the leaders of our continent, including Léopold Sanghor, Ben Bella, Sékou Touré, Kwame Nkrumah, Prixley Lka Seme, Langalibalele Dube, Oliver Tambo, Nelson Mandela and a lot of our remarkable leaders, have all participated in the pursuit for the noble objective articulated at that conference.

The seeds which were planted at the London Conference had germinated when the African people refused to tolerate another day of the extension of their misery, and removed power from the self-serving elite that remained in the service of colonial masters. Central to all these struggles remained the determination of the people of Africa for unity, solidarity and the integration of the continent. Therefore, I would like to agree with members that the Pan-African Parliament, in my view, is a necessary step, but I think we should situate it in the formation of the African Union itself. The African Union follows the formation of the Organisation of African Unity, which was formed in 1963 and which has served us well up to now.

One of the speakers asked whether the OAU had done anything meaningful or whether it should be disregarded because it had no meaningful role. We should recall that the Organisation of African Unity over the years was seized with the decolonialisation of the continent, and until South Africa was decolonised and dealt with its colonialism of a special type, the OAU could not spend a lot of energy on the development challenges of the continent. It spent a lot of its energies discussing the liberation of the African continent, stability, peace and security on the continent, and it was only in 1991 when the Abuja Treaty was adopted that some meaningful discussions took place around issues of economic development and the challenge of development in Africa.

It was therefore an important step that, while we think the OAU has indeed served us well in terms of the liberation of the African continent, our leaders began to participate, not only on matters of security, peace and political issues, but on economic issues as well. This is why the African Union has been formed. If one looks at it, it combines both what the OAU was doing and what the Abuja Treaty is supposed to do. Of course, the Abuja Treaty spells out a long process that would end up with an African parliament not of this nature, but an African parliament of elected continental parliamentarians, which is still a long way to come. This is an interim step which will eventually lead to a properly elected parliament that might have legislative powers.

So the reason for the formation of the African Union was the realisation that Africa has to grapple with the developmental challenges of the 21st century, and that the OAU, as it stands, is not able to deal with that challenge properly. So it was important that a new organisation that would be able to deal with that challenge properly be formed. Hence the formation of the African Union.

Of course, the African Union has a number of bodies and the Pan-African Parliament will be part of the bodies that would fit into the African Union. Eventually, there would be a court and a monetary fund as well. So, it is in that context that we should look at this Pan-African Parliament. On the question asked by the hon Seremane whether the Pan-African Parliament will coexist with the OAU it obviously shows that he has not read the document, because if he had done so, he would not have asked that question. The Pan-African Parliament would coexist with the African Union, because once the African Union comes into being, the OAU will disappear. So, if the hon member went and read the document, that will become very apparent and clear. [Interjections.]

I would like to say that, as we debate this Pan-African Parliament, it is very important that we do not behave like born-again democrats. We should behave like proper democrats, because proper democrats would put their points and debate it to try and convince other people to their point of view. They will not try and lecture or dictate to other people. [Interjections.] It is going to be very important that, even though we are young in our experience of democracy, we must not show it. We must behave like experienced democrats. [Interjections.]

Madam Speaker was very correct when she said that as we look at the Pan- African Parliament, democracy, of course, is the foundation not only of the Pan-African Parliament but also of the African Union itself. It is important to stress what Madam Speaker said - that there is no ``one fits all’’ model of democracy.

Of course, democracy means people must have a say, there must be an accountable government, and a responsible government which is elected at regular intervals, but we cannot dictate the exact model, because the model must take into account the realities that exist in each country. Each country has its own faultlines and the democracy there has to make sure that it addresses those instead of opening them up. Therefore, it cannot be a case of ``one fits all.’’

South African democracy is very good for South Africa, but may not necessarily be good for the next country. In the same way, as we elected, for instance, not to have constituencies because, for our purposes, that did not work for us, in other countries, that may work for them. So, it is very important that we bear that in mind.

In terms of economic development, yes, the leaders of the continent have realised that it is important for them to participate and focus not only on peace, security and stability, but also to look at economic development, the fight against preventable diseases, ignorance, the fight against the digital gap, and the fight against poverty. This is why we have the formation of the African Union. However, having said that, I think it is also important to look at what the IFP member said. He asked some questions such as whether this will be a useless talk shop that will be of ceremonial value and add no value to the lives of people in the continent.

I think, indeed, that it would be up to the parliamentarians to ensure that the Pan-African Parliament, even though it does not have legislative powers, does add value because there are a lot of common issues which we can discuss as a continent, and as parliamentarians from the continent. There are lots of issues around which we would need to build consensus which would assist both in African unity and in the understanding among our peoples because, indeed, a lot of South Africans do not understand the continent in which they live. They do not understand the people in the continent and vice versa. It is important for parliamentarians to also participate in feeding information, suggestions and recommendations to what the OAU Heads of State are dealing with.

So, in my view, it would be in the hands of parliamentarians to make this a meaningful parliament for the continent and a meaningful precursor for a proper Pan-African Parliament which is envisaged in the Abuja Treaty.

I am not quite sure whether the hon member from the ACDP was saying that he rejects this Pan-African Parliament idea, or what exactly he was saying. It is not for the first time that I sometimes get confused by what he says generally. [Laughter.] I would like to thank him if he does support the idea of Pan-African Parliament because it is the right thing to do. However, if he is opposed to it then we will pray for him, and he will change his mind. [Laughter.] I just want to wish him well, and hope that how he puts his ideas and how he convinces the rest of the continent we will know after the 7th and 8th, because whatever comes out of that meeting will reflect whether he was able to debate and convince other people or not. If he is able to do that, then we will see a version of the Pan- African Parliament that he is proposing, and if he is defeated we will soon know. But I am sure that with all the powerful parliamentarians here he will get a lot of his ideas across.

My only concern is that I heard the hon member saying that he thinks that the Pan-African Parliament should have three women parliamentarians out of a delegation of eight. Why should it not be four women parliamentarians out of a delegation of eight? Why should it not be seven women parliamentarians out of a delegation of eight? Why should it not be eight women parliamentarians out of a delegation of eight? No, no, that would not be right. Four women parliamentarians out of a delegation of eight should be the minimum.

An HON MEMBER: Who is going to pay?

The MINISTER OF FOREIGN AFFAIRS: I am quite sure that each country is going to pay for its own parliamentarians in the same way that each country in the OAU pays for its own delegation, and I think that is only fair.

I wish hon members luck. [Applause.]

Debate concluded.

Report adopted (African Christian Democratic Party dissenting).

               MARINE LIVING RESOURCES AMENDMENT BILL

                       (Second Reading debate)

There was no debate.

Bill read a second time.

The House adjourned at 16:43. ____

            ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces:

Papers:

1. The Minister of Foreign Affairs:

 (1)    The Constitutive Act of the African Union, tabled in terms of
     section 231(2) of the Constitution, 1996.

 (2)    Explanatory Memorandum on the Constitutive Act of the African
     Union.

1. The Minister of Finance:

 Medium Term Budget Policy Statement - 2000 [RP 171-2000].

1. The Minister for Agriculture and Land Affairs:

 (1)    Statements in terms of section 65(2) of the Land Bank Act, 1944,
     of the Assets and Liabilities and the Profit and Loss Account of
     the Land and Agricultural Bank of South Africa as at 31 December
     1999.

 (2)    Statements of the Assets and Liabilities and the Profit and Loss
     Account of the South African Mortgage Insurance Company Limited of
     which the Land and Agricultural Bank of South Africa is the sole
     shareholder.

COMMITTEE REPORTS:

National Assembly:

1. Report of the Ad Hoc Committee on Pan-African Parliament, dated 30 October 2000:

 1.     The Ad Hoc Committee on Pan African Parliament was established
     by resolution of the National Assembly on 19 September 2000, to
     consider the proposed formation of a Pan-African Parliament. The
     Committee was formally constituted on 28 September 2000.

 2.     The Committee considered a draft Protocol to the Treaty
     establishing the African Economic Community relating to the Pan-
     African Parliament, limited its discussions to issues of
     principle, and agreed on the following guidelines:


     (1)     The Pan-African Parliament should be a deliberative body,
          without any law-making powers.

     (2)     The Pan-African Parliament should be composed of eight
          members from each Member State, appointed by each national
          Parliament from its ranks, on the basis of broad
          representivity, with a minimum of three women members.

     (3)     Members of the Pan-African Parliament should represent the
          views of their respective Parliaments.

     (4)     The term of each Pan-African parliamentarian should run
          with his or her term in the national Parliament concerned.


     (5)     Some general objectives of the Pan-African Parliament
          should be inserted in the draft Protocol.

     (6)     The seat of the Pan-African Parliament should be
          determined by the Assembly of the Heads of State of the
          African Union.

     (7)     Direct elections of members of the Pan-African Parliament
          would not be appropriate.
     (8)     The procedure for the election of the President and the
          Vice-Presidents should be specifically stated in the Protocol.

     (9)     The Protocol should be reviewed at intervals of not less
          than five years.


 Report to be considered.

1. Report of the Portfolio Committee on Arts, Culture, Science and Technology on Indigenous Knowledge Systems, dated 19 September 2000:

 The Portfolio Committee on Arts, Culture, Science and Technology,
 having held public hearings on Indigenous Knowledge Systems (IKS),
 reports as follows:


 A.     Introduction


     1. The Committee held public hearings on a Bill on the protection
          and promotion of IKS (the Bill) from May to July 2000. The
          Bill, which emanated from the IKS Programme in 1998, under the
          Committee, is a private members' legislative proposal on the
          protection and promotion of IKS.

     2. Since 1998 the Committee has received many comments on the
          Bill, indicating that it was unsuitable for introduction in
          Parliament in its present form. Further research and review
          was necessary to address some of the concerns raised by the
          commentators. The purpose of the public hearings then was to
          obtain comments, submissions and recommendations from various
          stakeholders on contentious issues raised in respect of the
          Bill.

     3. This Report contains findings and recommendations, to be
          considered by the Committee for further consideration and
          comment. The findings and recommendations are based on
          comments and submissions received in response to the questions
          posed at the hearings. Paragraph B provides a summary of the
          Bill and the main concerns raised thereon. Paragraph C
          discusses the questions asked and paragraph D the answers
          thereto. Paragraph E deals with a proposed legislative
          framework for the protection of IKS, emergent issues arising
          from the hearings, and a conclusion.


 B.     Summary of Bill


     1. The Bill defines IKS as "productions consisting of
          characteristic elements of the traditional artistic heritage
          developed and maintained by a community in the country or by
          individuals reflecting the traditional artistic expectations
          of such a community" (clause 1(xv)).

     2. The Bill seeks to protect indigenous knowledge against "illicit
          use and exploitation" and other "prejudicial acts" (clause
          3(1)).

     3. Indigenous knowledge has been protected through the extension
          and application of the Intellectual Property Amendment Act,
          1997. Section 1(xiii) defines "Intellectual Property Right" as
          referring to Trade Marks, Copyright and Merchandise Marks. In
          order to give effect to this provision, the Minister of Trade
          and Industry is required, after the promulgation of the Bill
          into law, to review and amend all intellectual property laws
          to include indigenous knowledge.

     4. The Bill makes provision for the establishment of the following
          bodies:


          (1) A Regulatory Authority.

          (2) Collective Community Administration Agencies.

          (3) A Directorate of IKS.


     5. The Regulatory Authority is a national juristic body entrusted
          with the following functions:


          (1) Providing strategic policy direction on IKS, and the
              implementation thereof.

          (2) Creating and promoting public awareness campaigns and mass
              participation on IKS.
          (3) Implementation of the law on IKS and promotion of the IKS
              programme.

          (4) Advising and co-ordinating all IKS activities, including
              the activities of the Registrar of Patents, Designs,
              Trade Marks and Copyright.

          (5) Conducting and co-ordinating research on the protection
              and promotion of IKS.

          (6) Developing a directory of inventors.

          (7) Establishing a tariff of the fees payable for the use of
              IKS technologies.


     6. The Bill makes provision for the creation of Centres of
          Excellence, whose main function is to act as Collective
          Community Administration Agencies. The Centres of Excellence -


          (1) are meant to defend the economic rights of community
              members and mandators (clause 22(1));
          (2) require State authorisation to exercise all its
              activities;

          (3) facilitate the process of licensing, collection and
              distribution of fees payable for use of indigenous
              knowledge entrusted to them; and

          (4) are accountable to traditional leaders, community members
              and mandators.


     7. The Bill also makes provision for the creation of a Directorate
          of Indigenous Knowledge, which is to be headed by a Registrar.
          Its main functions are to -


          (1) ensure compliance with the Bill and the regulations issued
              thereunder;

          (2) maintain registry of IKS, supervise, deposit and inspect
              all indigenous knowledge held by the Directorate; and

          (3) manage the information centres and publish periodic
              bulletins on IKS.


     8. Ownership disputes relating to indigenous knowledge are
          determined in accordance with traditional communities' own
          customs, laws and practices. The Bill lists a category of
          persons who may hold indigenous knowledge in custodianship:


          (1) The whole community.

          (2) A particular clan or family.

          (3) An association or society.

          (4) Specially taught or initiated individuals.


     9. Chapter III provides for the referral of disputes at the
          election of the regulatory authority to conciliation and
          subsequently to arbitration.

     10.     Clause 25 sets out the instances where the use of
          indigenous knowledge must be subject to authorisation:


          (1) Publication.

          (2) Reproduction.

          (3) Broadcasting.

          (4) Transmission in a diffusion service outside a lawful TV
              broadcast and by a non-original broadcaster.

          (5) Adaptation for profitable purposes and outside its
              traditional or customary context.


     11.     Failure to comply with the above is punishable on the
          first conviction with a fine equal to three times the value of
          the gain derived from use of the indigenous knowledge or to
          imprisonment not exceeding 20 years or to both such fine and
          imprisonment. A magistrate has the power to impose an
          additional penalty, which may exceed the jurisdiction of the
          Magistrate's Court. Any object made or receipts accruing to
          any person in contravention of the Bill are subject to seizure
          by an inspector appointed by the Authority.

     12.     Summary of main comments on Bill: Definition of IKS


          (1) The definition of IKS is set out in clause 1(xv). IKS is
              defined as "social capital in the form of living skills
              consisting of productions containing characteristic
              elements of the traditional artistic heritage developed
              and maintained by a community of South Africa or
              individuals therein reflecting the traditional artistic
              expectations of such a community, in particular". This
              definition is partly derived from the definition of
              "expression of folklore contained in section two of the
              Model Provisions for the National Laws on the Protection
              of Expressions of Folklore against Illicit Exploitation
              and Other Prejudicial Actions (the Model Provisions)".
              Section 2 of the Model Provisions defines "expressions of
              folklore" as "productions consisting of characteristic
              elements of the traditional artistic heritage developed
              and maintained by a community or by individuals
              reflecting the traditional artistic expectation of such a
              community, in particular".

          (2) The commentary on the Model Provisions states that the
              definition on artistic heritage is a particular domain
              within the more extensive realm of cultural heritage.
              Further, it states that the model provisions are intended
              to center around the protection of traditional artistic
              heritage rather than to extend to other forms of cultural
              heritage.

          (3) Clause 1(xv)(e) and (f) seem to indicate that the
              intention is not only to protect traditional artistic
              heritage but also the following:


              (a)  Manners and customs relating to food.

              (b)  Clothing and housing.

              (c)  Traditional medicine.

              (d)  Fermentation techniques and technology.


          (4) Elsewhere the Bill provides that disagreement regarding
              the protection of the environment is to be arbitrated in
              terms of the Arbitration Act (clause 18(1)).

          (5) The comment raised, therefore, is that by defining IKS
              using the Model Provisions definition may cause
              uncertainty, given the narrowness of this definition and
              the use of the phrase "in particular" in clause 1(xv)(e)
              and (f) of the Bill, which may be interpreted to mean
              that the list which follows after that phrase is a closed
              list. Therefore, any aspect of IKS which has been
              excluded from such a list is beyond the scope of the
              Bill.

          (6) As a general comment, some Indigenous Communities in
              Australia have taken exception to the use of the term
              "folklore" to describe indigenous knowledge. The feeling
              is that the term is too narrowly defined and implies an
              inferiority of the cultural and intellectual property of
              the indigenous peoples to the dominant culture. In using
              the term "folklore" to describe IKS, the tendency has
              been to reduce IKS to arts and crafts rather than a way
              of life encompassing all aspects of cultural heritage,
              including the indigenous knowledge of plants and animals
              in medical treatment and as food.

          (7) Further, Mrs Erica Irene Daes, UN Special Rapporteur, on
              her study on the protection of the cultural and
              intellectual property of indigenous people, suggested
              that any attempt "to try and subdivide the heritage of
              indigenous people into separate legal categories such as
              "cultural", "artistic" or intellectual elements such as
              songs, stories, science or sacred sites would be
              artificial". She believes that all elements of heritage
              should be managed and protected as a single interrelated
              and integrated whole. She furthermore states that
              "heritage includes all expressions of the relationship
              between the people, their land and other living beings
              and spirits which share the land, and is the basis for
              maintaining social, economic and diplomatic relationships
              through sharing with other peoples. All of the aspects of
              heritage are interrelated from the traditional territory
              of the people concerned. What tangible and intangible
              items constitute the heritage of a particular indigenous
              people must be decided by the people themselves".


     13.     Exclusion of biodiversity from ambit of Bill


          (1) Commentators have raised concerns on the exclusion of
              indigenous knowledge about biodiversity from the ambit of
              the Bill. The exclusion of biodiversity could have been
              an oversight, given the fact that the Bill in defining
              indigenous knowledge includes "the production of
              traditional medicine from herbs and other sources"
              (clause 1(xv)(ee). Elsewhere, the Bill obliges the
              Regulatory Authority to protect communities by requiring
              researchers and scholarly institutions to obtain consent
              prior to engaging in study of previously undescribed
              species or cultivated varieties of plants, animals or
              microbes or naturally occurring pharmaceuticals (clause
              44).

          (2) Commentators believe that the Bill has not considered the
              debates and contradictions that have arisen from the
              Convention on Biological Diversity, to which South Africa
              is a party. Briefly, the debate in the Convention forum
              has two extreme positions. The first position advocates
              the extension of intellectual property rights to
              indigenous knowledge. The proponents of this position
              argue that -


              (a)  protecting indigenous knowledge through intellectual
                   property rights would promote technological
                   innovation and would facilitate the development and
                   dissemination of that knowledge in the modern
                   economic space; and

              (b)  knowledge could generate incentives for indigenous
                   people to conserve the environment and manage
                   biodiversity.


          (3) The second position advocates the retention of the status
              quo, where such knowledge is treated as a public good.
              The proponents of this position argue that -


              (a)  the extension of intellectual property rights to
                   indigenous knowledge would destroy the social basis
                   for generating and managing such knowledge; and

              (b)  intellectual property extension to indigenous
                   knowledge would lead to the privatisation of such
                   knowledge, which may deny future generations and
                   industry access to such knowledge.


          (4) The Convention has been seen by developing countries as
              "opening up opportunities for benefits to be derived from
              their natural resources and providing a supportive
              framework for protecting indigenous knowledge".

          (5) The primary objectives of the Convention are to ensure -


              (a)  the equitable sharing of benefits derived from the
                   use of genetic resources with the parties providing
                   them;

              (b)  that prior informed consent of indigenous people is
                   obtained before granting access to their knowledge
                   and natural resources;
              (c)  that indigenous people receive recognition and
                   acknowledgement for their contribution to universal
                   knowledge and welfare;

              (d)  that indigenous people develop their own economic
                   uses of their indigenous knowledge and associated
                   biological resources, which are consistent with
                   traditions of sustainable use; and

              (e)  that the knowledge, innovations and practices of
                   indigenous people are respected and preserved through
                   the necessary legislation.


          (6) The Committee established from previous conferences and
              meetings on IKS that there are five broad categories of
              IKS, which should inform its definition. These broad five
              categories, which have not been completely reflected in
              the Bill's definition, are the following:


              (a)  Technology.

              (b)  Social issues and IKS.

              (c)  Biodiversity.

              (d)  Social institutions.

              (e)  Liberatory processes.


          (7) Terminology employed in Bill


              (a)  The Bill uses the terms "indigenous knowledge",
                   "traditional knowledge" and "cultural property"
                   interchangeably. The usage of these terms is often
                   subject to confusion, as there has been no unanimous
                   effort to develop a universally accepted definition
                   of IKS, traditional knowledge, indigenous people and
                   traditional people. Some commentators have asserted
                   that the diversity of the phrase "indigenous people"
                   renders problematic an all-embracing definition and
                   that attempts to develop an all-embracing definition
                   are a diversion of energies. However, we would
                   endorse the view expressed by Dr John Mugabe, (in his
                   "Intellectual Property Protection and Traditional
                   Knowledge" paper, delivered at a Conference on the
                   Trade-related Aspects of Intellectual Property Rights
                   and the Convention of Biological Diversity, Kenya,
                   February, 1999, p 98), that "whilst one may run into
                   conceptual difficulties in any attempt to define
                   indigenous knowledge and traditional knowledge, the
                   use of the two concepts as synonymous must be
                   eschewed".

              (b)  The International Labour Organization (ILO) defines
                   indigenous people as "People who have descended from
                   populations who inhabited a country or geographical
                   region thereof at the time of conquest, or
                   colonization or establishment of state boundaries and
                   who irrespective of their legal status retain some or
                   all of their own social economic cultural and
                   political institutions".


          (8) Definition has four vital factors


              (a)  Priority in time with respect to occupation of a
                   territory.

              (b)  Voluntary perpetuation of cultural distinctiveness.

              (c)  Self-identification and self-recognition by other
                   groups.

              (d)  An experience of subjugation, marginalisation,
                   dispossession, exclusion or discrimination,
                   irrespective of whether or not these conditions
                   persist (Dr Erica-Martin Daes, "Rights of Indigenous
                   People", paper presented at Pacific Workshop on the
                   UN Draft declaration on the Rights of Indigenous
                   Peoples, Suva, Fiji, September 1996).


          (9) At this stage, we can therefore state that indigenous
              knowledge is that continuous knowledge regarding all
              aspects of indigenous cultural knowledge that is
              acquired, nurtured, evolved and transmitted from
              generation to generation by indigenous people, whether
              collectively or as individuals, and which sustains the
              lives of and regulates the relationships of indigenous
              people amongst themselves and with the environment in
              which they live.


     14.     Traditional people


          (1) Members of a distinct culture, who hold an unwritten body
              of long-standing customs, beliefs, rituals and practices
              handed down from previous generations.

          (2) No claim of prior territorial occupancy to the current
              habitat - they could be recent immigrants.

          (3) Indigenous people are traditional, but traditional people
              are not necessarily indigenous ("Intellectual Property
              Protection and Traditional Knowledge" paper, delivered at
              a Conference on the Trade-related Aspects of Intellectual
              Property Rights and the Convention of Biological
              Diversity, Kenya, February 1999, p 98).


     15.     Acts against which IKS would be protected


          (1) This aspect is dealt with by clauses 1(xvi), 3(1), 20 and
              25.

          (2) Clause 3(1) states that "indigenous knowledge shall be
              protected against illicit use and exploitation and other
              prejudicial actions as defined in this Act". It is not
              entirely clear what would constitute "illicit use and
              exploitation" or "prejudicial action". Clause 1(xvi)
              defines illicit use as "any utilization in violation of
              the provisions (unless it is within the scope of the
              exceptions mentioned would be illicit exploitation).
              Similarly, non-compliance with the provisions and
              commissions of the acts described would constitute other
              prejudicial actions, which are illicit, even if they
              occur in connection with an authorized utilization that
              does not require authorization". Most commentators have
              suggested that this definition requires further
              clarification. The notions of "illicit exploitations" and
              "prejudicial actions" have been derived from section 1 of
              the Model Provisions. In terms of the commentary to the
              model provisions, any utilisation of folklore for gainful
              intent outside its traditional or customary context and
              without authorisation from a competent authority or the
              community itself constitutes illicit exploitation. This
              means, amongst other things, that use, even with gainful
              intent within the traditional or customary context, would
              not be subject to authorisation. Conversely, use by
              members of the community where the indigenous knowledge
              has been developed and maintained, would require
              authorisation if it were made outside that context and
              with gainful intent.

          (3) One can thus deduce that what was intended in the Bill is
              that any use of indigenous knowledge in violation of
              clause 25 would constitute illicit exploitation.
              Similarly, the violation of clause 20 and the commission
              of an offence in terms of clause 37 would constitute
              prejudicial actions.

          (4) Clause 37 only makes the violation of clause 20 an
              offence. It does not seem that the violation of clause 25
              would constitute an offence. It would seem that this
              might not have been the intention of the legislature.


     16.     Beneficiaries of protection
          (1) Clause 24 identifies beneficiaries of IKS as -


              (a)  a whole community;

              (b)  a particular family or clan;

              (c)  an association or society; and

              (d)  individuals who have been specially taught or
                   initiated to be its custodians.


          (2) This clause further provides that the owners of indigenous
              knowledge will be determined in accordance with the
              communities' own customary law practices. By implication,
              the Bill proposes that ownership disputes should be
              determined in accordance with the communities' own
              customary law and practices.

          (3) Clause 22 makes provision for the establishment of
              Collective Administration Organisations through Centres
              of Excellence. The latter, although not defined as such,
              are the nine historically black universities. Generally,
              Collective Administration Organisations are normally
              established in terms of copyright laws of a country. In
              as much as these are well established in European
              countries, the South African Copyright Act has no
              equivalent provision for their establishment. The main
              function of such an organisation is to license the use of
              copyright works for an agreed fee and to collect and
              distribute the fees to composers and authors.

          (4) Under a Collective Administration System, owners of
              indigenous works would authorise such an organisation to
              administer its works by, inter alia -


              (a)  processing applications for use of indigenous works;

              (b)  granting authorisation for certain kinds of use of
                   indigenous works;

              (c)  monitoring the use of such works;

              (d)  negotiating on behalf of indigenous owners with
                   prospective users the terms of use and licensing of
                   such works;

              (e)  licensing against appropriate fees and conditions;
                   and

              (f)  collecting such fees and distributing them to the
                   indigenous owners.


          (5) The provision for Centres of Excellence is a very positive
              element, as they would develop a distinct profile
              ensuring a continued regard and respect for Indigenous
              works. It would be advisable to further clarify the
              following:


              (a)  What constitutes such a Centre?

              (b)  The precise functions of these Centres. Generally,
                   Collecting Organisations operate under stringent
                   conditions, which include the holding of monies
                   collected in trust for owners and access to records
                   by owners. They are required to keep proper
                   independently audited records. The only functions
                   mentioned are -


                   (i)   that they will defend economic rights of the
                         community;

                   (ii)  that they will grant non-exclusive licenses for
                         use of works;

                   (iii) that they will negotiate general tariffs and
                         distribute fees to members; and

                   (iv)  how they will be funded.


          (6) Generally, Collective Administration Organisations often
              require many resources. Infrastructure would include
              specialised legal, accounting and information technology
              expertise. In addition, there are substantial costs
              associated with data collection and research.


     17.     Manner in which intellectual property rights have been
          extended to IKS


          (1) Intellectual property is the expression used to describe
              the rights afforded by law in respect of -


              (a)  patents for inventions;

              (b)  copyright for creation of new knowledge and
                   expression;

              (c)  registered designs for new shapes or appearance of
                   an article;

              (d)  trade marks and geographical indications for
                   distinctive goods or services;

              (e)  plant breeders' rights for propagation of new plant
                   varieties;

              (f)  unlawful competition for prevention of gaining an
                   advantage over a competitor in an unfair or unlawful
                   manner; and

              (g)  trade secrets.


          (2) Intellectual property, therefore, covers all forms of
              proprietary rights whereby a person or company can
              prevent third parties from conduct which would give them
              an unfair advantage.

          (3) Clause 1(xiii) defines intellectual property rights only
              with reference to the -


              (a)  Trade Marks Act, 1993;

              (b)  Copyright Act, 1978; and
              (c)  Merchandise Act, 1941,


              and not with reference to other forms of intellectual
              property rights (IPR) specifically referred to in
              paragraph 15(2) above.


          (4) The exclusion of the other forms of IPRs means that
              indigenous knowledge in the medicinal, agricultural and
              technological fields might not be protected. The
              definition of IPRs has been derived from section 1(1)(xi)
              of the Counterfeit Goods Act, 1997. The latter does not
              protect other registered forms of IPRs, such as patents
              or designs, nor does it protects unfair competition
              rights. Some commentators have indicated that the
              reference to trade marks, copyright and merchandise marks
              means that the Bill only covers "artistic" indigenous
              knowledge. This might not have been the intention, given
              the fact that the definition of indigenous knowledge
              covers other aspects of IKS, such as -


              (a)  manners and customs relating to food;

              (b)  clothing and housing;

              (c)  traditional medicine; and

              (d)  fermentation techniques and technology,


              and the fact that clause 3(2) provides that "this Act
              shall apply to every intellectual property right
              incorporated under the Intellectual Property Laws Act,
              save as otherwise provided herein, to every intellectual
              property right".


     18.     The clauses dealing with IPRs have received great
          attention from commentators. Most have indicated that because
          South Africa is a party to international instruments
          regulating IPRs, her intellectual property (IP) laws must
          reflect international minimum norms contained in such
          instruments. Indigenous knowledge, therefore, cannot be
          protected in terms of the existing IP laws unless the latter
          are amended to provide for its protection. Other commentators
          have gone so far as to indicate that if indigenous knowledge
          is protected by marrying it in any way at all with existing
          IPRs, this would have international negative repercussions for
          South Africa's international trade, and hence the economy.
          These commentators argue that the Bill in its present form
          violates the provisions of the World Trade Organization's
          (WTO) agreement on Trade-related Aspects of Intellectual
          Property (TRIPS). The following provision is quoted in
          particular: The equality of treatment principle set out in
          article 3 of TRIPS, which provides that "each member shall
          accord to the nationals of other members treatment no less
          favourable than it accords its own nationals". This means that
          people within the RSA have to be treated in IPRs in the same
          manner as people outside the RSA who are applying for such
          rights or who have rights in the RSA to be protected.


          (1) The question of extending IPRs to indigenous knowledge is
              a complex one and often fraught with controversy. The
              international community has recognised the need to devise
              new regimes or expand existing ones to accommodate IKS.
              However, no coherent and inclusive international efforts
              are made to address these concerns. Some commentators
              believe that the existing IPR systems are inadequate to
              protect IKS because -


              (a)  IPRs are oriented around the concept of private
                   ownership and individual invention, whereas IKS
                   emphasise collective creation and ownership of
                   knowledge; and

              (b)  IPRs violate indigenous cultural principles by
                   encouraging the commodification of such knowledge.


              These commentators advocate the enactment of sui generis
              regimes for the protection of IKS.


          (2) Other commentators argue that the above concerns show a
              lack of understanding of the specifics of IP law and the
              specifics of concrete uses of indigenous knowledge.
              Whilst many indigenous cultures develop and transmit
              knowledge from generation to generation within a communal
              system, individuals in indigenous communities can
              distinguish themselves as informal creators or inventors
              separate from the community (Prof Gupta, 1992). These
              commentators argue that geographical indications, trade
              marks and trade secrets can be used to protect indigenous
              knowledge. Studies have shown that indigenous people have
              used, and continue to use, trade secrets to protect their
              knowledge. Geographical indications and trade marks are
              intended not to reward innovation, but goodwill and
              reputation created or built up by a group of producers
              for many years. Geographical indications can create
              economical rewards for producers who use indigenous
              methods in the region where the product is produced.

          (3) From the above it seems that "the present IP system
              presents both opportunities and obstacles for protecting
              indigenous knowledge. The relationship between measures
              to protect indigenous knowledge and the IP system
              requires further consideration....., the co-existence
              between the IP system and the protection of indigenous
              knowledge is a profound and complex question" (WIPO).


     19.     Retroactivity


          (1) Clause 43 provides for some form of retroactivity. It
              provides that "any utilization (of indigenous knowledge)
              which became subject to the law (IKS) but were commenced
              without authorization before the date of commencement of
              this Act should within six months after that date and
              subject to the rules of the Regulatory Authority relating
              to the issue of the authorization, apply for such
              authorization".

          (2) Commentators have questioned whether this provision is
              legal, given the fact that some indigenous knowledge-
              based innovation and creation are protected in terms of
              the existing IP legislation. They have argued that the
              effect of this provision is intended to invalidate prior
              registered patents based on indigenous knowledge and
              genetic resources. The other concerns are:


              (a)  How far back would the retroactivity apply.

              (b)  Who will perform the identification process of
                   utilisation, which would in terms of the IKS law
                   require authorisation, and how long would such a
                   process take place.


          (3) WIPO has suggested that the effect of this provision on
              existing IP rights in respect of indigenous knowledge-
              based innovations and creation requires further
              consideration.


     20.     Implementing structures


          As previously mentioned, the Bill makes provision for the
          establishment of a Regulatory Authority and a Directorate.
          Most commentators felt that the functions of these two bodies
          could be combined to avoid unnecessarily increasing the number
          of people to administer the act. Other commentators remarked
          that "far from recognizing indigenous community rights, the
          state seems to be eager to get full control over their
          knowledge, information and natural resources" (Grace Noguiera,
          Brazilian lawyer). This brings into question the level of
          involvement of holders of indigenous knowledge in the
          implementation of the Bill. However, commentators acknowledge
          that the identification of holders of indigenous knowledge is
          a difficult task.
     21.     Various other comments relating to the format of the Bill
          were raised, but we believe the above comments represent the
          essence of the main comments. In the light of the comments
          raised, the Committee called for public hearings in all nine
          provinces. In preparation for these hearings, questions were
          prepared and circulated. The purpose of these was to assist
          the Committee to address the concerns/comments raised and to
          obtain the views of indigenous people/practitioners on how to
          deal with the contentious issues.


 C.     Questions


     1. Understanding of IKS


          (1) What is your understanding of IKS?

          (2) Does the definition of IKS adequately reflect our
              understanding thereof?

          (3) Do you believe that our understanding of IKS is adequately
              reflected by the five broad categories of IKS, namely
              Technology, Social issues and IKS, Biodiversity, Social
              institutions and Liberatory processes?


     2. Protection, preservation and promotion of IKS


          (1) Should Parliament pass legislation for the protection,
              preservation and promotion of IKS?

          (2) How should the legislation deal with the secrecy and
              sacredness aspect of IKS?

          (3) What are our concerns on IKS and how do we want these
              concerns addressed in IKS legislation?

          (4) What rights of indigenous people do we want MOST protected
              in IKS legislation?

          (5) How should IPRs be extended to IKS?


     3. Control and ownership of IKS


          (1) How should we organise ourselves as indigenous people to
              take control and ownership of IKS and to maximise benefit-
              sharing on the use of IKS?

          (2) Should a register of IKS be created, if so, by whom, and
              how must it be designed?

          (3) How should ownership disputes on IKS be settled?


     4. Traditional leaders and IKS


          What should be the nature of the relationship between
          traditional leadership, indigenous communities and Parliament?


     5. Establishing fact-finding mission on IKS


          (1) Do you believe that the government should constitute a
              fact-finding mission on IKS, whose functions would, inter
              alia, be to -


              (a)  investigate work done by all role-players on IKS to
                   date;

              (b)  investigate the appropriate structure for use by
                   practitioners on IKS to eliminate their
                   marginalisation;

              (c)  evaluate IKS priorities, legislation, policy
                   development, international linkages and implications;

              (d)  make the necessary recommendations on IKS issues?


          (2) If so, how should this fact-finding mission be
              constituted, and what other issues should it cover?


 D.     Answers


     1. Understanding of IKS


          (1) IKS was seen as a way of life which has social
              consciousness implications and has sustained indigenous
              people from generation to generation.

          (2) Participants considered and debated the efficacy of the
              five broad categories of IKS. The general feeling was
              that IKS is very broad and covers all aspects of the
              lives of indigenous people, including interaction amongst
              themselves and with the environment in which they live.
              Others felt that a further category of economic issues
              could be introduced but for purposes of drafting a
              definition of IKS, these five categories were sufficient.

          (3) The participants were also of the view that the definition
              of IKS was too narrow and couched in folklore terms. The
              definition must be amended to reflect all aspects of
              cultural heritage, including the indigenous knowledge of
              plants and animals as food and in medical treatment.


     2. Language


          In all nine provinces, participants were of the view that
          language is an important manifestation of indigenous
          knowledge. It conveys cultural heritage and philosophical
          tenets of indigenous people (for example, the saying that
          "umuntu ngumuntu ngabantu" conveys the philosophy of "ubuntu",
          which other countries are now researching for implementation
          in organisational design). Through this saying, children were
          taught the importance of being part of a collective/team and
          of sacrificing personal needs in the interest of the common
          good of the collective. This in turn fostered respect for
          other people in the collective and assisted in conflict
          management resolution within the collective. Participants
          raised the concern that indigenous languages are often
          researched by non-indigenous people, who then produce books
          and sell them to indigenous people. In most instances, these
          books incorrectly reflect indigenous languages. Traditional
          leaders in the Northern Cape were of the view that the Khoisan
          languages are inextricably linked to the land and the people.


     3. Cultural heritage/social issues


          Indigenous knowledge includes culture, spiritual knowledge,
          histories, oral tradition, teaching and learning systems,
          indigenous ceremonies, literary, performing and artistic
          works, which includes music, dance, songs and praise poetry.


     4. Institutions


          Participants regarded indigenous institutions, such as
          initiation ceremonies, traditional leadership, traditional
          healing, lobola and lekgotla, important in any definition of
          IKS.


     5. Indigenous technologies


          (1) Food management and preservation systems.

          (2) Seeds preservation and management systems.

          (3) Indigenous farming and agricultural techniques. The
              general feeling was that an effort must be made at
              government level to support indigenous farmers in this
              regard, especially in view of the controversy which has
              arisen with respect to genetically modified food.

          (4) Indigenous mining techniques.


     6. Biodiversity


          (1) Knowledge of and sustainable use of flora and fauna as
              food and for medical treatment.

          (2) General ecological knowledge.

          (3) Indigenous human genetic material, including DNA and
              tissues.


     7. Liberatory processes


          (1) This category was debated at length, and the general
              feeling was that further research should be conducted
              thereon. It was acknowledged that conflict resolution
              methods adopted in institutions such as "lekgotla"
              represent indigenous wisdom. The talks at Codesa on the
              freedom of this country were structured on the principles
              of "lekgotla". The basic premise of "lekgotla" is that
              parties to a dispute must seek to obtain co-operation and
              consensus on the end result. This is in stark contrast
              with the western adversarial system applied in our
              courts, which is characterised by antagonism and conflict
              between parties. It was noted that the invitation
              extended to Mr Cyril Ramaphosa to mediate in the Ireland
              dispute was recognition of the strength of "lekgotla"
              principles in conflict resolution and management.

          (2) The concept of "ubuntu" was also discussed at length. It
              was recommended that further research be done thereon,
              particularly in view of the fact that institutions such
              as Harvard had begun to conduct research in this regard.


     8. Suggested definition of indigenous knowledge


          (1) The following is a suggested draft definition of
              indigenous knowledge, based on the findings and
              consultations at the hearings:


              Indigenous knowledge is that continuous living knowledge
              that is acquired, nurtured, evolved and transmitted from
              generation to generation by indigenous people, whether
              collectively or as individuals, as part of expressing all
              aspects of their indigenous cultural heritage and
              concerning without limitation:


              (a)  Indigenous cultural identity - spiritual knowledge,
                   histories, oral tradition, teaching and learning
                   systems, indigenous ceremonies, literary, performing
                   and artistic works, which includes music, dance,
                   songs and praise poetry.

              (b)  Indigenous institutions - initiation ceremonies,
                   traditional leadership, traditional healing and
                   "lekgotla".

              (c)  Indigenous technologies - food management and
                   preservation systems, etc.

              (d)  Biodiversity - knowledge of and sustainable use of
                   flora and fauna as food and for medical treatment,
                   etc.

              (e)  Indigenous conflict resolution and management
                   systems - "lekgotla", which regulates the
                   relationships of indigenous peoples amongst
                   themselves and with the environment in which they
                   live.


     9. Definition of indigenous people
          It was suggested that the Bill should contain a definition of
          indigenous people. The current draft does not have this
          definition.


     10.     Protection, preservation and promotion


          Should Parliament pass legislation for the protection,
          preservation and promotion of IKS?


          (1) This was asked in view of the two extreme positions on
              protection of IKS within the Convenrtion forum, referred
              to in paragraph B.12(4) above.

          (2) Participants acknowledged that the purpose of IPR is to
              turn knowledge into a marketable commodity. This means
              that knowledge must be separated and isolated into
              identifiable pieces, which can be protected by law. IKS,
              on the other hand, is integrative, holistic and
              synergistic. However, the reality of the situation is
              that indigenous knowledge is being misappropriated
              without reward or recognition of its holders. Overall, a
              significant aspect of the global economy is based on the
              appropriation and use of indigenous knowledge to the
              extent that trade in medicinal plants from developing
              countries runs into billions of rands. The participants
              felt that, in view of these developments, indigenous
              knowledge must be protected and just compensation for the
              use of such knowledge must be guaranteed.

          (3) Participants felt that the constitutional guarantees
              extended to customary law should likewise be extended to
              IKS.


     11.     How should legislation deal with secrecy and sacredness
          aspect of IKS?


          (1) The participants felt that secret and sacred matter must
              be dealt with in accordance with the customary rules of
              indigenous people. A concern was raised, however, about
              the unauthorised use and reproduction of secret and
              sacred material for commercial purposes. This has led to
              the disclosure of secret and sacred material to parties
              who are not entitled to know or view such material. It is
              now common course to watch male initiation ceremonies on
              television. The fact that this institution was
              experiencing problems and challenges, did not justify the
              violation of its secrecy and sacredness. These challenges
              and problems must be solved within an indigenous context.

          (2) Other participants felt that, with the exception of
              traditional healing and spiritual matters, indigenous
              people should evaluate whether it would still be
              necessary to retain secrecy and sacredness after
              legislation on IKS has been passed. These participants
              argued that the reason why indigenous people originally
              introduced secrecy and sacredness, was to protect
              indigenous knowledge from misappropriation and scrutiny
              by missionaries. They further argued that if secret and
              sacred material is maintained as such in perpetuity, it
              might deprive indigenous communities from evaluating the
              efficacy and relevance of such material. The only
              requirement is that indigenous people must do the
              evaluation themselves in accordance with customary
              practices within an indigenous context.

          (3) The participants also felt that secret and sacred material
              of traditional healers or material relating to spiritual
              matters must be maintained as such and in accordance with
              the customary practices of indigenous people. The only
              requirement is that the retention of secrecy and
              sacredness for traditional healing must be coupled with
              responsibility and accountability.


     12.     What are our concerns on IKS and how do we want these
          concerns addressed in legislation on IKS?


          The participants raised the following concerns:


          (1) The legal status of IKS. The feeling was that the process
              of enacting legislation for the protection and promotion
              of IKS must be expedited.

          (2) Unauthorised use of secret and sacred material.

          (3) Unauthorised use of indigenous knowledge without benefit
              sharing or recognition of holders/creators of that
              knowledge.

          (4) The patenting by pharmaceuticals of plants which have been
              identified by indigenous people as having healing
              properties. Pharmaceuticals thereafter isolate the active
              ingredient of the plants and patent inventions on those
              plants even though their healing properties have been
              known to indigenous people for years.

          (5) The retention by universities and museums of art, stone
              implements and carvings without prior informed consent.

          (6) Misinformation in research. A lot of research has been
              conducted on indigenous people, their languages and
              institutions. Indigenous people have not been consulted
              on how the material is to be represented and
              disseminated.

          (7) Exclusion of indigenous knowledge from schools' and
              universities' curricula.

          (8) A lack of cohesive organisation, representing the
              interests of indigenous people and the difficulty of
              accessing indigenous people.

          (9) No educational campaign or awareness programmes on IKS.

          (10)The above concerns must be addressed by -


              (a)  finalising legislation on IKS;

              (b)  legislation protecting the rights of ownership and
                   control of indigenous knowledge by indigenous people;
                   and

              (c)  legislation making provision for a structure through
                   which indigenous people can organise themselves and
                   form local and international networks.


     13.     What rights of indigenous people do we want most protected
          in IKS legislation?


          The participants listed the following rights:


          (1) The right of ownership and control of indigenous
              knowledge.

          (2) The right to benefit commercially from the authorised
              exploitation of indigenous knowledge.

          (3) The right to ensure that any means of protecting IKS is
              premised on the principle of self-determination, which
              includes the right of indigenous people to maintain and
              develop their own culture and knowledge systems and forms
              of social organisation.

          (4) The right to authorise or refuse to authorise the
              commercial use of IKS in accordance with indigenous
              customary law.

          (5) The right to maintain the secrecy and sacredness of IKS.

          (6) The right to prevent distortions and mutilations of IKS.

          (7) The right to legal assistance and support on IKS contracts
              and any unauthorised use of indigenous knowledge.


     14.     How should IPRs be extended to IKS?


          (1) Participants acknowledged that this topic was complex, and
              required further debate and investigation, given the fact
              that there was absence of consensus on whether and how to
              extend IP protection to IKS. The debate at international
              level has shown that the extension of IP protection to
              IKS is complex and controversial. Some participants felt
              the manner in which the Bill had extended IPR to
              indigenous knowledge might be in contravention of the
              provisions of TRIPS. It was suggested that this aspect
              should be investigated further.

          (2) The question here is whether legal protection of IKS can
              be achieved within the existing IP system or whether sui
              generis regimes should be enacted to offer legal
              protection to IKS. Most participants were of the view
              that although the existing IP system does not offer
              protection to most of the indigenous-based innovations
              and technologies, certain aspects of IP can be used to
              protect IKS:


              (a)  Certification and Collective Marks.

              (b)  Trade Secrets.

              (c)  Geographical indications.
     15.     Participants felt that the debate on IP protection of
          indigenous knowledge has tended to focus on the restrictive
          nature of patents' and plant breeders' rights, which have the
          following requirement for inventions to be patentable:


          (1) It must be new.

          (2) It must involve an inventive step.

          (3) It must be capable of industrial and agricultural
              application.


     16.     Participants stated that indigenous people have used and
          continue to use trade secrets to protect indigenous knowledge.
          The advantage of trade secrets is that they can be used to
          protect subject matter which is unpatentable or because the
          holder thereof does not wish to disclose publicly for fear
          that a business competitor will use the information to the
          holder's disadvantage. Once the information is publicly
          disclosed, the holder can no longer claim the information
          secret. Certain aspects of indigenous knowledge relating to
          traditional healing and medicinal knowledge can be protected
          through trade secrets. The Bill should provide for the
          protection of indigenous knowledge through trade secrets.


          (1) Geographical indications and collective marks were seen as
              useful tools for indigenous people seeking to obtain
              economic benefits from their indigenous knowledge or
              prevent its objectionable commercial use by third
              parties. Geographical indications are defined under TRIPS
              as indications which identify goods as originating in the
              territory of a (WTO) member or region or locality in that
              territory where a given quality, reputation or
              characteristic is attributable to its geographic origin.

          (2) In South Africa, geographical indications, certification
              and collective marks are governed by sections 42 and 43,
              respectively, of the Trade Marks Act. A certification
              mark is defined as a mark capable of distinguishing in
              the course of trade, goods or services certified by any
              person in respect of quality, kind, quantity, intended
              purpose, value, geographical origin or other
              characteristics of the goods or services, as the case may
              be, from goods not so certified. A collective trade mark
              is a mark capable of distinguishing in the course of
              trade goods or services of persons who are members of any
              association from goods or services of persons who are not
              members thereof. The main difference between collective
              and certification marks is that the former can only be
              used by the association which owns the mark, while the
              latter may be used by anybody who complies with the
              defined standards as to quality, value, etc. An important
              requirement is that the person or entity applying for the
              certification mark is competent to certify the goods or
              services concerned. With reference to IKS, indigenous
              associations or persons could certify products as being
              of a particular quality, mode or character and emanating
              from a certain region.

          (3) Geographical indications and collective and certification
              marks have the following advantages for indigenous
              knowledge:


              (a)  They are based on collective traditions and a
                   collective decision-making process, a producer being
                   qualified to use a geographical indication according
                   to her location and methods of production. It is
                   irrelevant whether the producer is an individual,
                   family member, in partnership or in association. For
                   example, Ndebele beads manufacturers and
                   craftspersons could register a collective association
                   and distinguish themselves in the market place.

              (b)  They confer monopoly rights over the use of certain
                   information, but simply limit the class of people who
                   can use a certain symbol.

              (c)  They protect and reward traditions while allowing
                   evolution.

              (d)  They emphasise the relationships between human
                   cultures and their local land and environment.

              (e)  They are not freely transferable from one owner to
                   another.

              (f)  They can be maintained in perpetuity (CIEL
                   discussion paper for Convention workshop, November
                   1997).


     17.     A submission was made to the effect that the Registrar of
          Patents, Designs and Trade Marks should investigate the
          possibility of creating a register of well-known marks of IKS.
          A mark is well known in the Republic if it is known to a
          substantial number of persons interested in the goods or
          services to which the mark relates (e.g. McDonald's). The
          effect of this register would grant the right to indigenous
          persons to exclude others from using these marks.

     18.     Finally, it was suggested that it is important to
          establish mechanisms to ensure that, once the IKS legislation
          has been enacted, inventions based on IKS and genetic
          resources are not filed and protected in terms of IP laws
          without authorisation from the holders thereof.

     19.     Traditional leaders and IKS


          How should we organise ourselves as indigenous people to take
          control and ownership of IKS and to maximise benefit-sharing
          on the use of IKS?

          Participants supported the establishment of the Regulatory
          Authority. This Regulatory Authority must be a national body
          tasked with the determination and implementation of strategic
          policy on IKS. The participation and election of indigenous
          people in the Regulatory Authority was seen as essential. The
          participants were of the view that the establishment of a
          Directorate of IKS in the Bill would constitute duplication.
          The Regulatory Authority could do the work of the Directorate.
          At provincial level, it was recommended that trusts (nine)
          should be established to represent the interests of indigenous
          people. Trustees of the trust would be appointed on the
          recommendation and approval of indigenous people at local
          level. There would be no formal legal structure at local level
          other than indigenous people being encouraged to form local
          committees, which would interact with local universities and
          other institutions. The following structure was proposed and
          approved:


                NATIONAL BODY
                REGULATORY AUTHORITY
                PROVINCIAL STRUCTURE
                TRUSTS (NINE TRUSTS)
                TRADITIONAL LEADERS
                LOCAL COMMUNITIES/COMMITTEES
                THROUGH LOCAL GOVERNMENT
                UNIVERSITIES/COLLEGES OF EDUCATION
                IKS & SOCIAL ISSUES
                IKS & SOCIAL INSTITUTIONS
                BIODIVERSITY
                TECHNOLOGY
                LIBERATORY
                PROCESSES


     20.     A representative from the National Heritage Body in the
          Eastern Cape suggested that national heritage as an existing
          structure could be used for the IKS structure at provincial
          level.

     21.     Should a register of IKS be created, if so, by whom, and
          how must it be designed?


          (1) The participants welcomed the directory of inventors
              envisaged in the Bill. The concern at this stage was that
              it would be dangerous for holders of indigenous knowledge
              to disclose their knowledge without safety mechanisms
              being put in place. It was still necessary to control
              access to knowledge.

          (2) It was recommended that an interim measure would be to
              register all holders of IKS, including their speciality
              area, without disclosing the details of knowledge. The
              interim register would simply provide contact details of
              indigenous knowledge holders. The disclosure of knowledge
              would only be done on enactment of legislation on IKS and
              subject to the condition that -


              (a)  the register should not stifle the development of
                   IKS;

              (b)  inclusion of knowledge in the register should be
                   voluntary; and

              (c)  new material and secret and sacred knowledge would
                   require further protection.


     22.     How should ownership disputes on IKS be settled?


          (1) The participants saw the issue here as how to identify
              rightful owners of IKS and how to deal with competing
              claims of ownership and how to deal with IKS that is
              similar across boundaries and populations.

          (2) The participants supported the dispute resolution
              mechanisms set out in the Bill:


              (a)  Through customary law and practice.

              (b)  Conciliation and arbitration.

              (c)  The importance of having an informal dispute
                   resolution system was stressed, as it would then be
                   accessible to indigenous people. The Bill does not
                   provide for a court of competent jurisdiction on IKS
                   matters. It was also felt that courts should be used
                   as a last resort.

              (d)  With reference to IKS that cuts across boundaries,
                   it was felt that ownership rights of all concerned
                   must be respected, subject to joint benefit-sharing.
                   Collecting agencies would assist in this regard.


     23.     Traditional leaders and IKS


          (1) Do we believe traditional leaders have a role to play in
              IKS? If so, what is the nature and extent of this role?


              (a)  The feeling was that traditional leaders have an
                   important role to play in IKS, as they are an
                   important source of IKS - they are custodians of IKS.
                   Traditional leaders should play an important part in
                   the administration structures of IKS.

              (b)  Traditional leaders from Mpumalanga proposed that,
                   if given resources, they could initiate projects of
                   an indigenous nature, such as -


                   (i)   cultivation, manufacturing and distribution of
                         sorghum beer;

                   (ii)  indigenous fermentation and manufacturing of
                         mageu;

                   (iii) catching of and processing of Mopani worms.


          (2) What should be the nature of the relationship between
              traditional leadership, indigenous communities and
              Parliament?


              (a)  Traditional leaders could act as a link between
                   indigenous communities and Parliament. However, it
                   was stressed that the political neutrality of
                   traditional leaders is important in this regard. Some
                   traditional leaders have entered politics, with the
                   result that it might be difficult to represent
                   indigenous people of different political
                   affiliations.

              (b)  It was recommended that the Committee have further
                   discussions with the House of Traditional Leaders on
                   the exact role of traditional leaders in IKS.


          (3) Traditional healers and IKS


              Do we believe that traditional healers have a moral duty
              to explain the difference between traditional doctors and
              traditional witchcraft?


              (a)  The practitioners could not reach consensus on
                   terminology to be used in describing traditional
                   healers. Some felt that the latter term inadequately
                   reflected them as doctors in the traditional context.
                   Others felt that the term "traditional healers" was
                   sufficiently broad to encapsulate all aspects of
                   traditional healing, including -


                   (i)   prophets/diviners;

                   (ii)  herbalists;

                   (iii) traditional healers; and

                   (iv)  sangomas.


     24.     They also felt that the use of the term "traditional
          doctor" could confuse members of the public into believing
          that they were in some way linked to "witchdoctors".


          (1) Other practitioners felt that the appropriate term to be
              used in describing their office should be "traditional
              health care practitioners".

          (2) Traditional healing was recognised as permeating all
              aspects of indigenous life. Traditional healers play a
              very important role in health care, counselling,
              spiritual healing and African traditional religion. The
              term "witchdoctor" was coined by the previous
              legislature, which did not appreciate the nature of the
              social role played by traditional healers. The
              Suppression of Witchcraft Act regulates matters connected
              with witchcraft. This Act insufficiently distinguishes
              between witchdoctors, witch finders and traditional
              healers. In fact, the Act does not define the terms
              "witchdoctors" and "witch finders". This Act also makes
              the consultation of a witchdoctor (traditional healer) to
              establish that a third party is a witch, an offence.
              Practitioners raised the concern that this provision does
              not appreciate the holistic nature of their practice.
              Often, their patients consult them for health reasons,
              and during the consultation and diagnosis, it transpires
              that there is involvement of evil forces. It is then
              their duty to protect their patient in this regard. The
              manner applied for protection purposes then distinguishes
              witches from healers. Witches intentionally harm and kill
              people or cause harm or death to people. Healers heal by
              protecting people from harm and death through the spirit
              and ancestors.

          (3) It was agreed that the concept of witchcraft must be
              debated and clarified further, as historically it has
              been defined and understood in western terms. Traditional
              leaders in particular stressed the importance of
              protecting, preserving and promoting the institution of
              traditional healing.


     25.     Should traditional doctors be obliged to explain
          diagnostic findings to their clients and society when the need
          arises?


          Practitioners were concerned that western doctors are never
          required to explain their diagnostic findings in respect of
          their patients to society. Would they be required, for
          example, to disclose diagnostic findings in respect of
          sexually transmitted diseases? The disclosure would certainly
          violate healer-and-patient confidentiality and trust. The only
          duty is and will always be to their patients. The only
          exception would be in the case of unexplained death. In this
          instance, the disclosure would be made to members of the
          immediate family. A submission from traditional leaders was
          that the healer should only divulge such diagnosis under oath
          in a tribal court. Society should only be given the general
          knowledge of the kind of illness which can be cured by health
          care practitioners, without labelling anyone as a patient.
          Patients should not be forced to give evidence against health
          care practitioners unless they so elect.


     26.     Should medicine dispensing methods be evaluated, if so, by
          whom and how?


          (1) Practitioners agreed that there was a need for the
              formation of a national structure for all health care
              practitioners. The function of this structure, inter
              alia, would be -


              (a)  to register all health care practitioners, including
                   their contact details and area of specialisation;

              (b)  to formulate policy and strategic direction on all
                   issues affecting health care practitioners;

              (c)  to establish standards for admission, conduct and
                   practice;

              (d)  to ensure that practitioners have access to legal
                   advice;

              (e)  to establish linkages with other bodies, in
                   particular the Registrar of Patents, Designs and
                   Trade Marks, so as to have access to and monitor the
                   registration of patents based on indigenous knowledge
                   or genetic material.


          (2) The practitioners and traditional healers emphasised the
              importance of ensuring that this national structure is
              driven and managed by the indigenous health care
              practitioners themselves and not by western doctors or
              researchers.


     27.     Establishing fact-finding mission on IKS


          Do you believe that the government should constitute a fact-
          finding mission on IKS, whose function would, inter alia, be
          to -


          (1) investigate work done by all role-players on IKS to date;

          (2) investigate the appropriate structure for use by
              practitioners on IKS to eliminate their marginalisation;

          (3) evaluate IKS priorities, legislation, policy development,
              international linkages and implications; and

          (4) make the necessary recommendations on IKS issues?


          If so, how should this fact-finding mission be constituted and
          what other issues should it cover?


     28.     Traditional leaders submitted that the establishment of
          the fact-finding mission was a key issue, for the following
          reasons:


          (1) A multiplicity of parties are involved in IKS work without
              the necessary co-ordination.

          (2) It is impossible to establish the identity of and the
              nature of IKS work being done by the various parties.

          (3) There was therefore a real risk of losing valuable IKS
              work, given the current method of operation.

          (4) It would be difficult to formulate or establish a register
              without knowledge or access of IKS work.

          (5) It would make recommendations and clarify some issues
              which were not dealt with sufficiently or at all during
              the public hearings, in particular the issue of resources
              to be allocated to IKS.


     29.     Other participants felt the establishment of this fact-
          finding mission would create awareness on IKS and greater
          involvement of practitioners and indigenous people. A concern
          had been raised during the hearings on the difficulty of
          ensuring greater involvement of indigenous people in IKS. The
          fact-finding mission would make recommendations on -


          (1) education and awareness strategies that need to be
              developed to encourage debate on IKS;

          (2) short-term protection strategies, which can be implemented
              without the need for the enactment of the IKS
              legislation;

          (3) the format of a pre-legislation body, which would be
              responsible for co-ordinating IKS-related work;

          (4) the formation of national and international networks for
              indigenous people, which would share knowledge and
              experience;

          (5) innovation and sustainability of current research
              methodologies in IKS, and the development of code of
              ethics in consultation with indigenous people for
              researchers and third parties on IKS research;

          (6) the nature of Collective Administrative Agencies and the
              structure to which such agencies must be attached;

          (7) creating conditions for the establishment of an atmosphere
              of trust; and

          (8) finalisation and passing of IKS legislation.


     30.     The fact-finding mission should also make recommendations
          on long-term strategies:


          (1) Inclusion of IKS in school curricula.

          (2) Access to indigenous land of Khoisan traditional leaders
              who have been dispossessed without the provision of
              alternative land on which they would continue to practice
              indigenous cultural heritage.

          (3) Promotion of IKS after legislation.


     31.     There was no agreement on the nature of the fact-finding
          mission. Some participants felt that it could be in the nature
          of a commission headed by a judge who had expert knowledge on
          indigenous law. Others felt that the commission must be
          chaired jointly by a judge and an indigenous intellectual,
          whilst another group felt that a commission could be based on
          existing local government structures, with the proviso that
          indigenous people should play a key role there.


 E.     Conclusion


     1. The purpose of the public hearings was to -


          (1) assess whether the Bill adequately addresses the needs and
              concerns of indigenous people, and if not, to establish
              the extent and nature of needs and concerns which require
              further consideration; and

          (2) have further consultation and debate on such issues, and
              from such discourse attempt to develop a basic framework
              for the improvement of protection, recognition and
              promotion of indigenous knowledge.


     2. The basic principles emanating from the discourse at these
          hearings can be summarised as follows:
          (1) The Bill requires revision and amendment to construct a
              broader definition of IKS. Indigenous health care
              practitioners regarded the indigenous knowledge of plants
              and animals as an important manifestation of their
              indigenous knowledge, which is exploited without
              recognition and benefit-sharing. Most health care
              practitioners are at loss as to how to protect their
              knowledge and organise themselves to prevent further
              exploitation.

          (2) The categories of cultural heritage ("ubuntu") and
              liberatory processes ("lekgotla/inkundla") require
              further consideration and debate so that they can be
              properly articulated in legislation. In the present
              period of violence and break-down of family values, these
              categories could play an essential role. We have seen
              that indigenous methods of conflict resolution and
              management have been regarded as relevant and useful
              elsewhere.

          (3) The legislative framework for the protection of IKS has to
              be revisited. What has come out of these hearings, is
              that the current legislative framework needs further
              consideration. It has been suggested that the following
              must be used to protect IKS:


              (a)  Geographical indications.

              (b)  Certifications and Collective Marks.

              (c)  Trade secrets.


              In fact, a recommendation was made to institutionalise
              trade secrets for the protection of other manifestations
              of IKS. Participants argued that trade secrets have been,
              and continue to be, used by indigenous people to protect
              their knowledge.


          (4) The concern raised by other commentators that (unless SA
              IP laws are amended to provide for the protection of IKS)
              the manner in which IPR has been extended to IKS,
              violates international agreements such as TRIPS and the
              Paris Convention for the Protection of Industrial
              Property), requires further consideration. Other
              commentators argue that certain aspects of IPR which are
              group-oriented (geographical indications; Certifications
              and Collective Marks) could be used to protect IKS
              without violating any international agreements.

          (5) WIPO has indicated that the issues of IPR and the
              protection of IKS are complex. They have indicated that
              they would be prepared, if so requested, to comment
              further in this regard. The Registrar of Patents, Designs
              and Trade Marks, Mr Netshitenzhe, has also indicated that
              he would be happy to assist in this regard. He has been
              working closely with the OAU on the Model Law for the
              protection of indigenous knowledge in the African Region.

          (6) The question of establishing appropriate structures for
              the administration and promotion of IKS was extensively
              debated. Practitioners feel alienated and helpless
              because of the lack of representative structures on IKS.
              The importance of establishing the following structures
              was stressed:


              (a)  The Regulatory Authority.

              (b)  Provincial Trusts.

              (c)  Interim co-ordinating structure.


          (7) The nature of the involvement of traditional leaders
              requires further consideration. Traditional leaders saw
              their role in IKS as of an administrative nature. Further
              discussions with the House of Traditional Leaders should
              be held to clarify the role of traditional leaders.

          (8) An integrative, innovative and indigenous context-based
              approach, which would respect the intellect and autonomy
              of indigenous intellectuals and practitioners and foster
              mechanisms through the proposed structure, was seen as
              the most important objective of this exercise.


 Report to be considered.

National Council of Provinces:

1. Report of the Select Committee on Public Services on the Council for the Built Environment Bill [B 16B - 2000] (National Assembly - sec 75), dated 30 October 2000:

   The Select Committee on Public Services, having considered the subject of the Council for the Built Environment Bill [B 16B - 2000] (National Assembly - sec 75), referred to it, reports that it has agreed to the Bill.

2. Report of the Select Committee on Public Services on the Architectural Profession Bill [B 17B - 2000] (National Assembly - sec 75), dated 30 October 2000: The Select Committee on Public Services, having considered the subject of the Architectural Profession Bill [B 17B - 2000] (National Assembly - sec 75), referred to it, reports that it has agreed to the Bill.

3. Report of the Select Committee on Public Services on the Landscape Architectural Profession Bill [B 18B - 2000] (National Assembly - sec 75), dated 30 October 2000:

   The Select Committee on Public Services, having considered the subject of the Landscape Architectural Profession Bill [B 18B - 2000] (National Assembly - sec 75), referred to it, reports that it has agreed to the Bill.

4. Report of the Select Committee on Public Services on the Engineering Profession Bill [B 19B - 2000] (National Assembly - sec 75), dated 30 October 2000:

   The Select Committee on Public Services, having considered the subject of the Engineering Profession Bill [B 19B - 2000] (National Assembly - sec 75), referred to it, reports that it has agreed to the Bill.

5. Report of the Select Committee on Public Services on the Property Valuers Profession Bill [B 20B - 2000] (National Assembly - sec 75), dated 30 October 2000:

   The Select Committee on Public Services, having considered the subject of the Property Valuers Profession Bill [B 20B - 2000] (National Assembly - sec 75), referred to it, reports that it has agreed to the Bill.

6. Report of the Select Committee on Public Services on the Project and Construction Management Professions Bill [B 21B - 2000] (National Assembly - sec 75), dated 30 October 2000:

   The Select Committee on Public Services, having considered the subject of the Project and Construction Management Professions Bill [B 21B - 2000] (National Assembly - sec 75), referred to it, reports that it has agreed to the Bill.

7. Report of the Select Committee on Public Services on the Quantity Surveying Profession Bill [B 22B - 2000] (National Assembly - sec 75), dated 30 October 2000:

   The Select Committee on Public Services, having considered the subject of the Quantity Surveying Profession Bill [B 22B - 2000] (National Assembly - sec 75), referred to it, reports that it has agreed to the Bill. National Assembly and National Council of Provinces:

8. The Speaker and the Chairperson:

 (1)    The Minister of Health on 17 October 2000 submitted a draft of
     the Mental Health Care Bill, 2000, as well as the memorandum
     explaining the objects of the proposed legislation, to the Speaker
     and the Chairperson in terms of Joint Rule 159. The draft has been
     referred to the Portfolio Committee on Health and the Select
     Committee on Social Services, respectively, by the Speaker and the
     Chairperson in accordance with Joint Rule 159(2).

TABLINGS:

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces:

Papers:

1. The Minister for Justice and Constitutional Development:

 Documents, in terms of section 9(1) of the Promotion of National Unity
 and Reconciliation Act, 1995, regarding remuneration, allowances and
 other employment benefits of the staff of the Truth and Reconciliation
 Commission.

1. The Minister of Transport:

 Report and Financial Statements of the South African Civil Aviation
 Authority for 1999-2000.

National Assembly:

Bills:

1. The Minister of Trade and Industry:

 (1)    Tweede Wysigingswetsontwerp op Mededinging [W 41 - 2000].


     The Competition Second Amendment Bill [B 41 - 2000] (National
     Assembly - sec 75) was introduced by the Minister of Trade and
     Industry on 15 August 2000 and referred to the Portfolio Committee
     on Trade and Industry.

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces:

Papers:

1. The Speaker and the Chairperson:

 Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements of the South
 African Maritime Safety Authority (incorporating the Maritime Fund) for
 1998-99 [RP 107-2000].

National Assembly:

Bills:

1. The Minister of Finance:

 (1)    Wetsontwerp op Heffings deur Raad vir Mediese Skemas [W 61 -
     2000].


     The Council for Medical Schemes Levies Bill [B 61 - 2000]
     (National Assembly - sec 77) was introduced by the Minister of
     Finance on 14 September 2000 and referred to the Portfolio
     Committee on Health.