FRIDAY, 13 OCTOBER 2000 __

          PROCEEDINGS OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
                                ____

The Council met at 09:38.

The Chairperson took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayers or meditation.

ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS - see col 000.

                          NOTICE OF MOTION

Mr M A SULLIMAN: Chairperson, I give notice that I shall move at the next sitting of the Council:

That the Council -

(1) supports the Palestinian people’s struggle for freedom, democracy, justice and sovereignty;

(2) expresses its grave concern over the deterioration of the political situation in Palestine;

(3) believes that the uncompromising attitude of Israel’s Prime Minister, Ehud Barak, is not conducive to ameliorating the present situation;

(4) further believes that his attitude is in conflict with the commitments expressed by him in United Nations resolutions seeking a peaceful end to the Middle East conflict; and

(5) calls on the international community to condemn this intransigent behaviour of Israel’s Prime Minister and to urge all parties in the area to comply with and implement the agreements reached between them and to co-operate in the search for a comprehensive, just and lasting peace in the region.

               ELECTION OF MAYOR FOR CAPE TOWN UNICITY

                         (Draft Resolution)

Mr C ACKERMANN: Chairperson, I move without notice: That the Council -

(1) congratulates Mr Pieter Marais on his appointment by the DA as the mayoral candidate for the Cape Town Unicity;

(2) notes that the ANC and the President of this country have tried their utmost to lure Mr Marais into their camp on various occasions;

(3) notes that the previous President, Mr Mandela, praised Mr Marais on various occasions as an excellent politician and MEC for Welfare and Poverty Relief;

(4) also notes that the ANC gave the electorate of the Cape Town Unicity a slap in the face by not fielding candidates of the calibre of Minister Omar, High Commissioner Carolus, Mr Rasool, their Leader in the Western Cape, or the present Mayor of Cape Town;

(5) further notes that by fielding a fairly unknown, low-profile candidate, the ANC is admitting that they will lose the election in the Cape Town Unicity; and (6) calls on the ANC to support Mr Marais’ candidature as Mayor of Cape Town Unicity.

[Applause.] [Interjections.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Order! Is there any objection to that motion?

Mr M V MOOSA: Chairperson, I object mainly because Mr Marais will talk the city to death.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Order! There is an objection. The motion therefore becomes notice of a motion.

CONGRATULATIONS TO FORMER PRESIDENT MANDELA ON BEING NAMED LEADER OF THE CENTURY BY THE INTERNATIONAL WOMEN OF THE YEAR ASSOCIATION

                         (Draft Resolution)

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE COUNCIL: Chairperson, I move without notice … [Interjections.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Order! Hon members, could we listen?

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE COUNCIL: Thank you for your assistance, Chairperson. I move without notice:

That the Council -

(1) congratulates the former President of South Africa, Dr Nelson Mandela, who has been honoured as the Leader of the Century by the International Women of the Year Association in London;

(2) notes that this year was the 45th annual gathering of the association, and for the first time the association decided to honour a man and to choose laureates for their contribution to the previous century;

(3) is of the opinion that Mr Mandela, by his own example, has taught humanity that hatred and revenge can be transformed into forgiveness, acceptance and positive action; and

(4) congratulates the former President once more for his dedication to the fight against the violation of human rights and for his compassion and understanding.

Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.

       FAST-TRACKING OF MARINE LIVING RESOURCES AMENDMENT BILL

                         (Draft Resolution)

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE COUNCIL: Chairperson, I move the motion as printed in my name on the Order Paper:

That the Council ratifies the decision the Joint Programme Subcommittee took on 12 October 2000 in accordance with Joint Rule 216(2), namely that the Marine Living Resources Amendment Bill, 2000, be fast-tracked by, where necessary, shortening any period within which any step in the legislative process relating to the Bill must be completed, in order to make it possible for the Bill to be passed by both Houses of Parliament before adjournment in November 2000 (see Announcements, Tablings and Committee Reports, p 935).

Declaration of vote:

Mev A M VERSVELD: Mevrou die Voorsitter, die Wes-Kaap steun hierdie voorstel as ‘n saak van dringendheid omdat die bedryf stilstaan. Dit is net jammer dat daar nie ag gegee is op ‘n waarskuwing presies ‘n jaar gelede dat juis dit gaan gebeur nie. Ons hoop nie dat dit in die toekoms die geval gaan wees met alle wetgewing, naamlik dat die afhandeling daarvan versnel moet word nie.

[Mrs A M VERSVELD: Madam Chairperson, the Western Cape supports this motion as a matter of urgency, because the industry is at a standstill. It is just a pity that no heed was given to a warning precisely one year ago that this was exactly what was going to happen. We hope that this will not be the case with all future legislation, namely that its finalisation will have to be expedited.]

Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.

                TRANSNET PENSION FUND AMENDMENT BILL

            (Consideration of Bill and of Report thereon)

Mr S L E FENYANE: Chairperson, I feel honoured to assume temporarily the portfolio of the Minister for Public Enterprises, as I will be introducing his Bill. I hope you are aware that I really enjoy this privilege.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: I was not aware that the Constitution had been altered to allow you to give yourself such powers. [Laughter.] However, you may proceed.

Mr S L E FENYANE: The Bill in front of us seeks to establish two statutory pension funds, namely a defined contribution pension fund, and a defined second benefit pension fund. The former, that is the defined benefit fund, will hopefully cater for the pension needs of the 89 000 current active employees of Transnet. The latter will hopefully cater for the needs of the approximately 102 000 current pensioners of Transnet. In this scenario we have, strangely, more pensioners than active members.

The Bill further makes provision for rules and mechanisms that will allow for current Transnet employees and pensioners to be transferred from the Transnet Pension Fund, governed by Act 62 of 1990, to either the defined contribution fund, or the defined second benefit fund. Members, that is active employees and pensioners, are at liberty to have their pension fund rights ceded and transferred in the process to the new pension funds provided for in the Bill.

It is also important to draw a distinction between a defined contribution fund and a defined benefit fund. With a defined contribution fund, the investment risks and resultant consequences are the sole responsibility of the member and not the company or shareholders. Members are at liberty to seek a variety of investment options, and thereby maximise their returns. With a defined benefit fund, the risks that flow from the economic vicissitudes are underwritten and borne by the company and the shareholders.

Needless to say, Transnet’s pension fund, which is effectively amended by this Bill, was a defined benefit fund. This fund was transferred to Transnet with effect from 1 April 1990, with an actuarially determined deficit of R17,2 billion. This debt, which increased yearly as a result of the compounding of interest, virtually throttled, suffocated and predisposed Transnet to perpetually experiencing a negative balance on its income statement. The Bill in front of us attempts to alleviate Transnet of this horrendous burden.

Please allow me the rare indulgence to traverse memory lane, and to turn back the clock just for a moment. I believe this will help clarify this Transnet conundrum easily.

In the year 1971 a singular occurrence happened: The Railways and Harbours Pensions Act was passed to cater for the exclusive pension needs of Transnet’s white employees. Blacks were excluded. They had to endure that outrage with stoical sufferance. In 1974 the Railways and Harbours Pensions for Non-Whites Act was passed. It offered black employees some ridiculous pension benefits which were not compatible with those of their white counterparts.

In fact, actuarial evaluations indicated that black employees’ pension investments and benefits then were not only marginal, but they were somewhat equivalent to an ordinary savings account. However, Transnet’s white employees were assured lofty returns by the same company that treated blacks differently.

In 1990 Transnet’s management experienced a metamorphosis reminiscent of the biblical Damascus journey wherein Saul was transfigured and transformed into Paul, through unprecedented divine intervention. The company stopped patronising its black employees.

The Transnet management passed the Transnet Pension Fund Act in 1990 which effectively undid the past injustices as it attempted to recognise all Transnet employees as people who were equal before the law. However, the black employees of Transnet were still lagging behind their white counterparts in assets as they had joined the race late. So affirmative action was needed.

Let me explain the meaning of the words ``affirmative action’’. Affirmative action is a prophylactic measure that is applied by companies, firstly, to redress past injustices and, secondly, to prevent occurrences of past injustices in the future with the purpose that, at the end of the day, employment equity will be attained. That is the meaning of affirmative action and nothing else.

Transnet was then compelled, after 1994, to commit approximately R275 million to the accounts of black members of the fund so that their asset value compared favourably with that of their white counterparts. To complicate the matter further, the fund was a defined contribution, implying that Transnet was to bear all the risks and obligations attached to the fund.

The Bill effectively frees Transnet from that pension burden and allows it at last to shout: ``Eureka! Eureka! I have found freedom at last!’’ Members should understand that Transnet’s debt-to-equity ratio will now improve, and that Transnet’s return on equity as well as its return on assets will improve. This, in consequence, will increase its market capitalisation, and one can be confident enough to indicate that the shares of Transnet will definitely be sold at a premium, not at a discount, because its debt-to- equity ratio will have improved.

The Government can now position Transnet appropriately for any future competition-driven eventuality. In this process this asset, which is Transnet, will help to service delivery needs that are espoused by the RDP. During the committee processes, when the Bill was being navigated through the NA and the NCOP committee deliberations, all parties present supported it. We are indeed informed that Transnet’s management has not abdicated its fiduciary responsibilities and that all stakeholders have been duly consulted about these developments.

We are also informed that Transnet’s employees and insurance companies in the country are eagerly awaiting the passing of this Bill by Parliament. This response gives me the confidence, in my new position, to commend this Bill as an excellent piece of legislation and to presume, without equivocation, that this House will support it. I would like to thank hon members, one and all. [Applause.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Order! I was just thinking, Mr Fenyane, I hope your new elevation is not related to this day being the 13th and a Friday. [Laughter.] However, I noted the poetry of your input.

Debate concluded.

Declaration of vote:

Ms C BOTHA: Madam Chair, on behalf of the DP I wish to welcome the passing of this Bill. At the same time I want to say that it was an imaginative way of dealing with a problem that was caused to a large extent by the state holding of this company. I hope the future Minister for Public Enterprises also takes note of the fact that it is the removal of the state from this pension fund that to a large extent is improving its position. I am sure that this can only hasten its successful privatisation, which we await avidly.

Bill agreed to in accordance with section 75 of the Constitution. [Applause.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Order! I am glad that members realise that we have passed quite an important Bill. The President did make reference to it in his concluding remarks yesterday. This has been a significant challenge to the company Transnet as well as the country generally. I think that we must congratulate members on the fact that this Bill has been passed.

CHIROPRACTORS, HOMEOPATHS AND ALLIED HEALTH SERVICE PROFESSIONS SECOND AMENDMENT BILL

            (Consideration of Bill and of Report thereon)

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Order! We seem to be fortunate enough to have the Minister of Health as a frequent visitor to the National Council. Welcome, Dr Tshabalala-Msimang.

The MINISTER OF HEALTH: Good morning, Madam Chairperson and all members. I am indeed pleased to present to the NCOP this Bill which will facilitate the regulation of allied health service professions. The finalisation of this Bill up to the stage we are at now, that is having it considered by this House, has been a long and demanding process. In fact, I think it started when I was still the chairperson of the Portfolio Committee on Health.

It should have been expected that the harmonisation of the registration, procedures and requirements of such a multiplicity of professional groups would not be smooth sailing. However, I am pleased that we had a thoroughgoing process and most stakeholders have been consulted. I am also satisfied that, by and large, we have accommodated the concerns of most stakeholders.

One of the important features of this Bill is the fact that it does facilitate the recognition and accreditation of practitioners and therapists who were previously excluded from the establishment. These professionals will now have the opportunity to be part of the recognition process of their independent practices.

A very important sticking point regarding the Bill, which came from most provinces, was the composition of the new council. The Bill will facilitate the establishment of a democratic and representative council without the domination of one group by another.

The Bill also facilitates the participation in the council by those members who were previously excluded from the establishment. These include the people who practice Chinese medicine and acupuncture, therapeutic aromatherapy, therapeutic massage therapy and therapeutic reflexology.

Let me mention a few of the most important tasks of the new council. Firstly, I am sure that during the first year the new council will be engaged in facilitating and consolidating the registration of all practitioners and therapists in a single register. Secondly, an important task will be to facilitate the accreditation of all professional groups, including the recognition of the training and scope of practice of the various persons registered with the council. Thirdly, I know that there has been a vigorous debate on whether one should have practitioners and therapists or whether these groups should be combined under a single term. However, I am sure that this debate will continue even under the new council, and perhaps that is indeed where it should take place. Hon members will appreciate, however, that legislatures have the duty to approve legislation on the basis of the best information, knowledge and understanding that they have on these debates at any given time.

One of the most progressive things this Bill will achieve is the recognition of the fact that there are other forms of healing in society which complement traditional Western medicine. Secondly, it acknowledges that many people feel quite comfortable consulting these practitioners. Thirdly, it is possible to harmonise the regulation of these therapeutic practices. Fourthly, the practitioners themselves are responsible enough to work together to establish acceptable standards of practice and to protect the interests of the public.

I hope that we will learn from this experience how we can assist traditional healers to set standards for the practice of traditional medicine and to regulate their own profession. We should go further and find ways and means to encourage the preservation of our traditional knowledge systems. There are many African herbs and therapeutic practices that are essential for keeping the body and mind, and perhaps the soul, in a healthy state. It is unfortunate that these knowledge systems are not passed on from generation to generation.

I have fully studied the comments from the various provinces. I noted that Gauteng was concerned about the composition of the council, the omission of certain groups and the differentiation between practitioner and therapist. I hope that the formulation of the Bill does meet Gauteng’s expectations. I was encouraged to note that the mandate of the North West allowed its representatives to hear other points of view and empowered them to exercise their discretion. For a moment I thought I was alone in my own concern about African traditional healers, until I noted that the same concerns were contained in the Northern Province documentation. As always, KwaZulu- Natal had gone through the Bill with a fine-tooth comb. I am sure that the Bill reads much better now with all those grammatical and spelling mistakes corrected. There must have been a retired English schoolteacher in the KwaZulu-Natal delegation. [Laughter.]

Something very close to my heart was the fact that it was only KwaZulu- Natal which criticised certain parts of the Bill for not being gender- sensitive. I thought members would applaud them. [Applause.] Well done, KwaZulu-Natal! I did not know that the Free State was so concerned about community participation and jealous of its provincial autonomy. Their comments served to entrench community participation. They also wanted to make sure that things were done after consultation with their MEC for health. Please rest assured that I value and respect the opinions of my provincial counterparts. I thank Mpumalanga and the Northern Cape for supporting the Bill in its totality. In view of the Eastern Cape’s concern about consultation, I do want to assure them that there was a thoroughgoing consultation process on the Bill and that what they see is the product of that consultation. I hope and pray that the Western Cape will disappoint me today and support the Bill. [Laughter.]

I would like to give my special thanks to the Chiropractors, Homeopaths and Allied Health Service Professions Interim Council of South Africa for keeping the home fires burning. I can safely say that their efforts have been rewarded, because we now have a Bill which will establish the new council. I wish to thank them all for their hard work and I know that they will also support the new council. I know how passionate they are about this Bill. Amongst the members of the council I can single out Mr Michael O’Brien. I do not see him, and I do not know where he is today, but he is always in my office discussing this Bill. He has worked meticulously to ensure that the Bill includes most of the issues that were agreed upon by the stakeholders’ forum.

My colleagues informed me that unless certain concerns were taken on board, I would have to meet the council in court. I hope that we can still remain friends, but remember: I am Minister Manto Tshabalala and not Manto. [Laughter.] I can assure them that we will do everything to ensure the smooth functioning of the council and the protection of the public.

Finally, I wish to express my infinite gratitude to the NCOP Select Committee on Social Services and its chairperson, Ms Loretta Jacobus, for working tirelessly on the Bill until we reached the stage at which we could have it considered by the House. I implore all provinces and parties here present to accept the Bill as presented to members here today. After all, we have worked hard on this Bill. [Applause.]

Ms L JACOBUS: Chairperson, I will not take the full 10 minutes that I was allotted, firstly because the Minister stole about half of what I was going to say. Secondly, with the local government elections just under two months away, I think we are all anxious to get back to our constituencies and do work for our different political parties. [Interjections.]

I must also say that one is heartened to note that the Minister has set a particularly good example by actually going through herself, with a fine- tooth comb, the inputs that came from the provinces. I think that is an example that other Ministers could actually take on board, so that these negotiating and final mandates do not end up as pieces of paper sitting with the committee section and with the committee itself, but that Ministers actually do pay attention to those inputs.

The main purpose of the Bill before us today, as the Minister has already said, is to is to abolish the present Chiropractors, Homeopaths and Allied Health Service Professions Interim Council and to provide for the establishment of professional boards for the different practices to be represented on the new council. This initiative is in line with our national health policy with particular reference to the establishment of representative structures for the various practices in the health sector. The interim council, as the Minister has said, was established as far back as 1995 by the then Minister of Health, Nkosazana Zuma. One of their main tasks was to advise the Minister of Health on the constitution of a new permanent council. Following a long process of consultation and negotiations with various stakeholders, including educational institutions, a draft Bill was submitted to the department.

After in-depth consideration of the Bill and extensive discussion within our respective provinces, we effected the amendments as tabled. The amendments are numerous and I will not take the House through the painstaking exercise of tabulating all of them. Suffice it to say that the proposed council will now have equal representation of all allied health professions, including those which were previously excluded, and the Minister tabulated those as well. The new council will have to, within a period of 12 months, compile registers of all professions registered in terms of this Act, with members of the council proportionate to the number of registered members of each profession. This share, in our view, was the most democratic way of constituting this council since, at this point, we do not have accurate records of the number of practitioners in all these professions mentioned in the Bill. Other members may want to elaborate further on other amendments that were proposed, but the one that I have just highlighted, as the Minister has also said, dominated our discussions in the select committee.

May I, at this point, take the opportunity to thank the Minister and her department - in particular Professor Gumbi at the back there, the chief director of human resources, Miss Van Zyl somewhere in the corner over there, who is the legal adviser, and Mr Mabope, the special adviser to the Minister - for tirelessly sitting with us and going through the Bill to make sure that we captured everything that we were supposed to, as well as the director-general, who sat in on almost all our meetings and tried to assist us through the many processes. Thanks to them as well. We also thank Johannes, the parliamentary liaison officer, who actually ensured that there was a free flow of communication and information between ourselves, the department and the various people dealing with the Bill.

In conclusion I place before this House the committee report that recommends the adoption of Bill B66B-2000, with all the proposed amendments which the provinces voted in favour of. [Applause.]

Ms E C GOUWS: Madam Chairperson, hon Minister and members, we have yet again another Bill before us with aspects that are problematic which will prove difficult to implement. As I have said in this House before, enacting a Bill and merely making laws does not ensure practicality and workability or guarantee that members of the public will be duly protected. My party says that we should rethink some aspects of this Bill because there are concerns amongst the public. We hear the complaints and concerns and it is our duty to take cognisance of them.

Our focus should always be on ensuring a better life for all. The people should be part of the plan, the legislation and the success. Why, then, no public hearings on these issues of the Chiropractors, Homeopaths and Allied Health Service Professions Second Amendment Bill? We know that there were public hearings up to 1998. This is now a new millennium; it is the year

1. Why do we accept as sufficient those hearings that took place more than two years ago? There has been so much development in the meantime. Why is new input not allowed? Why are we rushing? What do we want to achieve? Our credibility is at stake.

Ek glo ons moet alle aspekte van gesondheidswette in orde kry. Dit is baie belangrik dat ons mense veilig voel, fisiek sowel as geestelik. Ons wette in die Wetboek moet ons daardie beskerming bied. Ons mense se gesondheid moet ten alle tye in goeie sorg wees, in die hande van goed toegeruste, opgeleide en verantwoordelike lede van die mediese professie. Ons wette moet daardie versekering verskaf en moet gemoedsrus gee aan die professie sowel as die pasiëntepubliek.

Ons is dit aan die publiek verskuldig dat daar duidelike omskrywings sal wees sodat daar byvoorbeeld onderskei kan word tussen terapeute en kosmetiese konsultante. Ons moet daarteen waak dat ons mense uitgebuit word, ook finansieel, met dienste wat aan hulle gelewer word. Die DP wil nie teen hierdie wetsontwerp stem nie, want daar is meriete, maar waarom die haas? Die publiek moet die kans gegun word om insette te lewer, dan kan ons weer praat. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)

[I believe that we have to get all aspects of health legislation in order. It is very important for our people to feel safe, physically as well as mentally. Our laws in the Statute Book must give us that protection. Our people’s health must be in good hands at all times, in the hands of well- equipped, trained and responsible members of the medical profession. Our laws must give that assurance and must give peace of mind to the profession as well as to the patients.

We owe it to the public to ensure that there are clear definitions, in order to distinguish between therapists and cosmetic consultants, for example. We must guard against our people being exploited, also financially, when services are rendered to them. The DP does not want to vote against this Bill, because it has merit, but why the undue haste? The public must be given the chance to make inputs, then we can talk again.]

The secretary of Hasa, the Homeopathic Association of South Africa, warns that this Bill is not a product of consensus. The DP would like us all to reconsider those aspects of the Bill that make people feel uncomfortable. Let us agree to do that in order to promote democracy. My party abstains.

Mrs E N LUBIDLA: Madam Chair, hon Minister, hon members, as one of the few permanent delegates who have been on this committee since the last Parliament, let me express my joy that this Bill is finally before this Council for debate and approval.

I saw the Chiropractors, Homeopaths and Allied Health Service Professions Interim Council come into being as an interim body, and I have been party to extending the life of the interim council on what seem to be many occasions. If I remember correctly, it was on 10 February 1996 that that council came into being. I was beginning to despair that we would ever get it permanently constituted when, even as late as the beginning of this year, we once again extended the life of this interim council.

This Bill has been six long years in the making. Its primary purpose is to allow those recognised alternative health professions to organise themselves within the confines of their profession, and determine norms and standards of practice, and to accommodate these professional boards under one umbrella council.

We want to congratulate the Minister of Health, who, on her appointment, immediately put plans into place to ensure that this Bill was tabled in Parliament. The world we find ourselves in today is looking towards alternative, nonallopathic means of healing. In my province, especially in the rural areas, almost 80% of the population consult traditional healers or herbalists to cure them of ailments. While this Bill does not include traditional healers, I see it as an important precedent to ensure that there are adequate control measures for those alternative medical practitioners. The absence of control measures allows quacks to buy some kind of qualification and sell potentially toxic substances to the unwary public.

What this Bill attempts to do, therefore, is to ensure that professional bodies are established with which a practitioner has to register, thus ensuring that aggrieved members of the public at all times have recourse to appropriate action should something go wrong or the service prove harmful to the vulnerable members of the public.

This Bill, as it stands, is by no means perfect, but it does, especially with the amendments, incorporate the concept of equal representation on this envisaged council by all the professions listed. As the ANC, we were particularly sensitive to the fact that in the original drafting of the Bill, there was disparity in the weighting of the council. Chiropractors and homeopaths were allowed three representatives while all the other professions were only given one seat on this council. Many of us, having suffered through the inequities of the past, were very disturbed that such inequities were being perpetuated by the composition of this council.

Some of the areas of contention that have plagued this interim council are seen by some as the direct result of its being dominated by the two professions of homeopathy and chiropractic. To perpetuate the disparity in representation would, we believe, revive the antagonism in the new council, which is a situation we want to avoid at all costs. In our deliberations with current council members, it would appear that this is what the current council members prefer. Needless to say, the ANC fully supports the amendments brought to this Bill in order to rectify these inequities.

The Bill also amends the principal Act so that the principles of professional practice, democracy, transparency, equity and community involvement are adhered to. With this in mind, the constitution of the council includes four community members appointed by the Minister. This essentially means that lay people who bring with them no professional bias would be able to advise the council on policy matters.

The vigorous debate around this Bill also taught us a great lesson, and that is to be mindful that we do not inadvertently discriminate against people with disabilities. In our haste to ensure that people who, for one reason or the other, were no longer capable of performing the responsibilities required of them in their respective professions did not endanger the lives of those seeking their services, we very nearly discriminated against the entire disabled community. Fortunately, we were able to bring into the Bill the necessary amendments to prevent such a disaster from occurring.

Our final concern is that this Bill needs to be passed with as little delay as possible, because it is only once this Bill is passed that the election of the new council can take place. This essentially means that we have to agree to regulations, place advertisements and interview candidates before the expiry date of 10 February 2001, when the current interim council will cease to exist.

Finally, we, together with the provincial standing committees, have engaged in a robust debate on this matter. I believe that the amendments we have deliberated on will go a long way in ensuring that our principles of democracy have been upheld. With this in mind, the ANC is happy to support this Bill with all the amendments. [Applause.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Order! Mrs Lubidla, I saw that you were determined to complete your speech in good time, but you did have a bit of time left still.

Mr T MHLAHLO (Eastern Cape) Madam Chair, I am happy that you pronounced my surname properly, because it appears distorted on the speakers’ list.

We, in the Eastern Cape, have concluded that this piece of legislation represents a necessary change within the health sector in this country, particularly the establishment of the new council and professional boards. The inclusion of community representatives articulated in this legislation represents a turning point.

We therefore support this approach by the Minister of Health. The composition of the council is very important and we are convinced this is going to allow the necessary interventions so that we can provide an effective health service in this country.

As a person who comes from the Eastern Cape, which is a largely rural province, I am also excited by the fact that traditional authorities will be accommodated in a way. I am sure this is going to establish a firm base for us in this country to proceed towards the 21st century. We therefore support this Bill.

However, I must say we are also disappointed. This is my third time of coming to this important House and, once again, I witnessed the DP’s opposition to change. If we cannot all do exactly what the hon the President articulated yesterday, South Africa will stagnate.

In this sense I must say that Ms E Gouws, who also comes from the Eastern Cape, is a real disappointment to the culture of consensus in that province. I think she should begin to change her attitude, otherwise South Africa will not move forward. I am saying this because one can abstain from change. South Africans must mobilise their efforts so that we can establish a fully fledged democracy in this country.

With these few words we fully support the Bill and we take note of the efforts by the Minister, in particular around the health challenges in this country. We watched television last night when she was speaking in KwaZulu- Natal. I think we need to provide the necessary support, because if we cannot do it in this important House, then who else is going to do it? With these few words we support the Bill. [Applause.]

Mrs T E MILLIN (KwaZulu-Natal): Chairperson, hon Minister and hon members of this House, while KwaZulu-Natal, as a coalition government between my party, the IFP, and the ANC, supports the Bill and the essential aims and objectives before this House, on behalf of my party there are concerns that require an airing. Due to time constraints, I am limited to one or two. These include the apparent and inappropriate overlooking of submissions timeously sent by the current interim council, as evidenced by documentation dated 4 October 2000 and submitted to the relevant authorities, as well as concerns regarding the apparent imbalance of the proposed new council which will comprise a mix of highly qualified representatives from long-established disciplines with substantial, recognised texts and practices, with five to six years of rigorous examination, all of which can be measured and monitored, together with other practitioners who might have had training measured in terms of hours, NQF assurances that might not be that assuring after all, and which could, indeed, open the door to quackery, which in turn would clearly not be in the public interest.

There could be dangerous and uncharted waters ahead in establishing a uniform code of practice, governing such disparate disciplines as contemplated in the proposed new council. Therefore it is reassuring to hear, notwithstanding the impending passing of the Bill before this House, that the said Bill will not be considered by the National Assembly until there has been a hearing of various groups and interested bodies, including the long-established disciplines and practitioners, when, hopefully, the apparently justified feelings and concerns about the Bill in its present form will be listened to and acted upon.

I respectfully submit that I would be failing in my duty and allegiance to my party, its policies and principles, were I not to voice these essential concerns, amongst others, while, as the larger part of the government of KwaZulu-Natal giving our support to the Bill.

No reasonable person ever stated that democracy or democratic government is cheap or easy. In fact, it is anything but. However, may that hard-won democracy which was achieved through the blood, sweat and tears of all the people of our nation, never be abused or fall into disrepute or called into question by insufficiently open, accountable and transparent governance. [Applause.]

Dr P J C NEL: Madam Chair, the main objective of any law must be to protect the public. This fact becomes even more relevant when it comes to the delivery of medical health services to the public. The safety of all members of the public must always be a first priority.

The New NP supports some of the clauses in the Bill. One of the main objectives of the Bill, as hon members have already heard, is to amend the principal Act to make provision for the abolishment of the interim council and to establish a new permanent council.

The interim council was instituted to register disciplines other than those registered with the Health Professions Council, previously the SA Medical and Dental Council. The interim council and the Act were aimed specifically at homeopathy and chiropractice. The Bill now gives recognition to the fact that the growth in the demand for other disciplines has given rise to the need to establish academic standards and criteria for the registration and the right to practice such disciplines and to uphold ethical standards to protect the public, for which the New NP has appreciation.

The Bill also seeks to provide for the establishment of four professional boards. These boards will, inter alia, monitor the ethical standards. The Bill further proposes that certain professions defined as practitioners be allowed to compound and dispense medicines prescribed by themselves but will now be subject to the provisions of the Medicine and Related Substances Control Act of 1965 to protect the public.

The New NP also supports the proposed section 16(4)(b) that deals with this aspect. We are, however, concerned that the Bill does not indicate the schedule in terms of which such a practitioner may dispense medicines. We are also concerned about the fact that the Bill does not mention anything about the establishment of training at official training institutions for the different disciplines.

The definitions of the different allied health service professions are very vague and do not give any indication what kind of service the different professions deliver to the public.

Volgens nuwe inligting wat onlangs tot ons beskikking gekom het, is dit baie duidelik dat die konsultasieproses totaal en al onvoldoende was. Die laaste openbare verhore is reeds twee jaar gelede gehou. Daar word nou aangedring, van die kant van sommige van die professies, dat openbare verhore weer gehou word voordat daar ‘n finale besluit oor die wysigingswetsontwerp geneem word.

Uit onlangse skrywes wat regstreeks aan lede van die komitee gerig is vanaf, onder andere, die voorsitter van die interimraad en die Homeopatiese Vereniging van Suid-Afrika, het dit duidelik geblyk dat daar nog groot onenigheid en ontevredenheid heers by die verskillende instansies. Dit het ook uit die skrywes geblyk dat onlangse skriftelike voorleggings wat deur genoemde instansies aan die komitee gemaak is, nie aan lede van die gekose komitee beskikbaar gestel en die voorstelle glad nie oorweeg is nie.

Die Nuwe NP is van mening dat dit glad nie nodig is om die stuk wetgewing so deur te stoomroller nie en steun die voorstel dat verdere openbare verhore gehou moet word voordat ‘n finale besluit oor hierdie wysigingswetsontwerp geneem kan word. [Applous.] (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)

[According to new information that has recently become available to us it is very clear that the consultation process was totally inadequate. As it is the last public hearings had been held two years ago. Some of the professions are now insisting that public hearings should be held all over again before a final decision is made about the amending Bill.

From recent letters written directly to members of the committee by, inter alia, the chairperson of the interim council and the Homoeopathic Medical Association of South Africa it is clear that there is still large-scale division and dissatisfaction among the various institutions. This also became evident from the correspondence indicating that recent written submissions made to the committee by the aforementioned institutions were not made available to the members of the select committee and that the proposals were not given any consideration.

The New NP is of the view that it is not in the least necessary to steamroller the piece of legislation through like this and supports the suggestion that further public hearings should be held before a final decision is made about this amending Bill. [Applause.]]

Ms L JOHNSON (KwaZulu-Natal): Chairperson, health is not a privilege but a right, and that right needs to be protected. It is Government’s responsibility to ensure that the health of the public is protected by making laws, and some of these laws control the practices of the health professions and allied health service professions. It is said that the use of alternative natural healing methods is increasing worldwide. The Bill seeks to establish academic standards and criteria for registration and the right to practise such professions, to uphold ethical standards and to protect the public.

I would also like to touch on clause 6, which deals with the constitution of the council. The council has a vital role to play in ensuring that the public health is not endangered by malpractices and also ensuring that the professions adhere to high standards of care.

The council also plays a watchdog role. The composition of the council, as was mentioned earlier by the speakers before me, is very inclusive and there is equal representation of all the professions. What is also important is that the members of the community are also represented, which will enrich the council by giving the community’s perspective. We hope that when elections and appointments of members are made, gender balance will be ensured. I have no doubt in my mind that that will happen, as our Minister is known to be very gender sensitive.

Another important structure is the professional boards. The object of a board, among others, is to advise the council on any matter falling within the scope of this Act that relates to any profession falling within the ambit of the professional board, in order to support the universal norms and values of the profession, with an emphasis on professional practice, democracy, transparency, equity, accessibility and community involvement. Another object is to guide the profession and to protect the public.

KwaZulu-Natal supports the Bill as amended. I would, however, like to make reference to the concern expressed by one of the members about the consultative process, namely that it was not adequate. When I look at the bodies that were consulted, I can count a total of 41. My question is: How many do we need to consult and who and how before we can consider it sufficient? This number of bodies consulted clearly indicates that there was broad consultation and that the people who are directly affected have been part of the process. Therefore it was ensured that everyone had the opportunity for input in this Bill.

In conclusion I would like to congratulate the Department and the Minister of Health on a job well done. It is indeed a good piece of legislation. [Applause.]

Dr A E VAN ZYL (Western Cape): Madam Chair, hon Minister, hon members, first of all, thank you for the opportunity to participate in this important debate. I would like to ask the House’s indulgence for a minute. I would like to pass around this plant, with the permission of the Chair. Members can just take a leaf of it, rub it between their fingers and then smell it.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: The effect on Mr Makoela is very worrying. [Laughter.] I would warn members to be very cautious. [Laughter.]

Dr A E VAN ZYL: What all of the members in this House are actually looking at is the plant called ``buchu’’. The Western Cape is the only place in the world where it is grown. It is grown on the slopes of mountains between Paarl and Clanwilliam.

Did the House know that it is only grown here? Did the House know that because of its medicinal properties the Americans and the Australians tried to grow the herb in their countries, but failed? Did the House know that it is the only South African herb recognised for its medicinal properties by the pharmacopoeias of Britain, the United States, France and the Netherlands? Is the House aware of the fact that we export 99% of buchu as buchu oil? The current retail price for one kilo of buchu oil is about R22 000.

Where am I going with this publicity for one of the Cape’s most unique herbs? I will tell the hon members. It is also called green gold'' here in the Western Cape. When one speaks ofgold’’, wealth, riches, prosperity, jobs and comfort are conjured up.

I think it was also in this House that I said:

If one is poor, if one has no money, one must have imagination.

We must use our imagination, put it together with modern expertise and start solving our problems of poverty, despondency, socioeconomic instability, unemployment and crime. Did hon members know that everyone in the world is working on buchu, except us? Why? Because, perhaps, there are still no proper structures to regulate and develop these healing herbs of which buchu is one.

Die Wes-Kaap beskik oor ‘n rykdom van 9 000 verskillende soorte medisinale kruie. Nêrens in die wêreld is dit so gekonsentreerd soos hier by ons nie. Dit word egter nie benut nie. Ons lewe by die aanvang van ‘n nuwe era, waar die hele wêreld soek na organiese voedselsoorte en natuurlike geneesmiddele. Dit is tans ‘n internasionale tendens om weg te beweeg van chemies gekweekte voedselsoorte, asook chemiese geneesmiddele. Ons het dus die antwoord voor ons neus.

Hierdie wetsontwerp is daarom van groot belang, alleen vanweë die beskermende en regulerende rol wat dit moet verseker. Die homeopatie is ‘n snelgroeiende bedryf wat korrek geadministreer moet word. Sonder regulasies en meganismes in plek is die kans groot dat die verbruiker, die pasiënt, ‘n slagoffer sal wees en dat dit die land nog meer sal kos. Huidig is daar ‘n groot hoeveelheid ongetoetsde, ongeverifieerde, ongefiltreerde inligting betreffende alternatiewe geneesmiddele en -metodes.

Die raad moet asseblief goed deurgronde deursigtigheid verseker. Standaarde moet geformuleer word ten einde die verbruiker, vervaardigers, prosesseerders en kwekers ten alle tye en onder alle omstandighede te beskerm.(Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)

[The Western Cape has a wealth of 9 000 different kinds of medicinal herbs. Nowhere in the world are they found in such concentrations as here in the Western Cape. However, they are not being utilised. We are living at the beginning of a new era, in which the whole world is seeking organic foodstuffs and natural remedies. Currently, there is an international trend to move away from chemically cultivated foodstuffs, as well as chemical remedies. Therefore, we have the answer right in front of us.

This Bill is therefore of great importance, if only because of the protective and regulatory role that it has to ensure. Homeopathy is a rapidly growing industry that must be administered correctly.

Without regulations and mechanisms in place there is a great possibility that the consumer, the patient, could become a victim and that this could be even more costly to the country. Currently, there is a large amount of untested, unverified and unfiltered information regarding alternative remedies and methods.

The council must please ensure that there is well-grounded transparency. Standards should be formulated in order for the consumer, manufacturers, processors and cultivators to be protected at all times and under all circumstances.]

Also within the context of the African Renaissance, the socioeconomic as well as the economic implications could have far-reaching negative effects, not only in South Africa alone, but also for Africa as a whole. It is essential to protect our resources from unethical and unscrupulous international exploitation from which neither we as South Africans nor our neighbours will experience any form of benefit whatsoever.

In conclusion, perhaps this Council … [Time expired.] [Applause.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon members, I must alert you to the fact that the leaf being allowed circulation in this House does not indicate that we will allow herbal practices and entrepreneurship in this House. [Laughter.]

Mr M I MAKOELA: Chairperson, I thought I was going to invite one of our traditional leaders from the province to come in and do a bit of marketing.

The Northern Province, while supporting the Bill under discussion, would, however, like to express a little concern, as the Minister has already mentioned. The House may be aware that the province is largely rural and therefore, while the majority of the inhabitants may not even have heard about some of the professions catered for in the Bill, however, like most of the country, they still believe and follow the practices of traditional medicine.

As the purpose of this Bill is to cater for those sectors that have been excluded from the mainstream health professions’ structures, we take this opportunity to implore the Minister to expedite a similar process that will culminate in the establishment of a body that will cater for the needs of traditional healers. It should be a body that will be in a position to regulate and monitor the profession and set up mechanisms to ensure the protection of the majority of the people in this country against bad practices. [Applause.]

The MINISTER OF HEALTH: Chairperson, let me, first of all, thank all the members for participating in this debate, it has been quite lively. A special word of thanks to the hon Dr Van Zyl for the plant. I wish to say to the hon Jacobus that I may not attend all the select committee meetings, but I want to assure her that I do read comments and I honestly take them very, very seriously. I thank her very much for noticing that. In this regard I would also like to thank my advisors and departmental officials because they have kept me informed of the select committee’s proceedings and deliberations.

With regard to the hon Ms Gouws’s comments, frankly speaking, I would have been surprised if she had supported this Bill without any lessons. and comments. I frankly would have been very surprised if she had done that. She has been very sharp in criticising the Bill, but she has not given us any proposals on how to proceed. I think it is important that we do pass this Bill, otherwise, come 12 February 2001, we will have no council.

I want to thank Mama Lubidla for her invaluable comments in this House. I think we really do need people like her in the other House too who will preserve the institutional memory of our democracy. I can assure the House that we will do everything to keep the quacks out of our health system. I want to say to Mr Mhlahlo of the Eastern Cape that I will always remember his words: You cannot abstain to transform. I hope Ms Gouws will also remember those words: You cannot abstain to transform. I support the accommodation of traditional healers, but I was not sure because the hon member said ``traditional leaders’’. I do not see their role in this Bill. [Laughter.] But yes, I accept the accommodation of traditional healers, but not traditional leaders. I think we have other problems with the traditional leaders and they do not concern this Bill.

I want to say to Mrs Millin from KwaZulu-Natal that I think we should allow these professionals to constitute a party and to, amongst themselves, sort out the accreditation of all the groups.

Of course, I know that the opposition has called for further hearings. I hope that this is not a process aimed at sabotaging the Bill. In fact, one would want to ask: Why further public hearings? Have the parties been lobbied and by whom? I honestly hope that the hon member’s comments are not meant to sabotage the passing of this Bill, because it is, indeed, long overdue. As I said, we started the process when I was still the chairperson of the Portfolio Committee on Health. I moved on to the Department of Justice, and I have come back again to Health. So it has been a long, long time. It is a train that goes slowly, it stops and people get on and off. But I think, we must really pass the Bill - it has taken a long time. In fact, it has been nearly six years.

I would like to say to Dr Nel of the New NP that we should not use the red herring of upholding standards in order to exclude credible parties from this Bill. The details that he is asking for regarding training and the scope of practice will certainly be attended to through the regulations, and I think he should know that by now. Frankly speaking, I am also simply getting very tired of people talking about lowering of standards, because I think some parties use this to discredit the new faces in this Parliament that are entrusted with governing our country.

The hon Ms Johnson from KwaZulu-Natal should be thanked for her comments about gender sensitivity. Of course, I will be watching this with a very keen eye. But let me also ask her to follow the process of the establishment of the council to ensure that, indeed, it is gender sensitive. I also thank her for reminding us that we have consulted well over 40 bodies. Again, I ask the question: Who has been lobbying the opposition parties? Who has been lobbying them so that we have to go through the whole process of consultation again. But I think we will know in the near future.

Regarding the hon Dr Van Zyl’s comments, I do recognise the fact that she has a PhD in pharmaceutical sciences and I also know that she has done extensive work in the pharmaceutical industry in Belgium. I really want to compliment her on her very progressive comments and also her consideration of South Africa’s traditional herbs. I shall take this herb home with me. But let me invite the hon Van Zyl to come and work with us in the MCC. Perhaps she might want to cross over and leave that party on that side. [Interjections.] But she definitely should apply for a job in the MCC. We do need people of her calibre. In fact, she may cross over right now. [Laughter.]

We all know that a piece of legislation, the South African Medicines and Medical Devices Regulatory Authority Act, was passed, and that it should be facilitating the registration of medicines. But, as the House knows, the pharmaceutical industry is holding us to ransom, and we cannot move ahead. Dr Van Zyl should please come and join us at the MCC so that we can strategise. [Interjections.]

Before I say thank you and sit down for now, let me just take this opportunity to say that this morning at a quarter to six I met Prof Zhang Wenkang, the Chinese health minister who is in our country with a delegation of senior officials from his ministry. They will be in the country as from today, and they will be going back to China on the 18th. During his visit we shall be signing a memorandum of understanding between our two countries on public health and medical science issues. The visit will also strengthen ties between our two countries on expanding exchanges in the field of public health, health care delivery and systems and biomedical services.

The delegation will be visiting KwaZulu-Natal on Sunday and then they will proceed to the Northern Province. Of course, they are in Gauteng today. I thought I should share that information with the members. [Applause.]

Debate concluded.

Declaration of vote:

Mnr C ACKERMANN: Mevrou die Voorsitter, die Wes-Kaap steun met graagte hierdie wetgewing. Ons wil aan die Minister sê dat daar by niemand en nie een van die opposisiepartye ‘n gedagte bestaan om enige vertragingstaktiek ten opsigte van hierdie wetsontwerp deur te voer nie.

Die Nasionale Vergadering het ‘n versoek gerig aan die Minister dat getuienis wat wel na vore gekom het, in ag geneem moet word wanneer hierdie wetsontwerp wet word. Derhalwe doen ons ook ‘n ernstige beroep van die Wes- Kaap se kant dat, indien die Minister verdere getuienis inwin wat kan aanleiding gee tot beter wetgewing, sy wel aan hierdie getuienis gehoor moet gee. Dit gaan oor ‘n beter wet in die Wetboek. Dit gaan hoegenaamd nie oor enige vertragingstaktiek nie.

Aangaande die kwessie van standaarde sal die Wes-Kaap graag wil sien dat standaarde wel ‘n rol speel wanneer hierdie raad tot stand kom. Dit is in ons land se belang dat standaarde ingestel word wat pasiënte en siek persone sal beskerm teen enige persone wat hierdie stelsel mag misbruik.

Laastens, ons in die Wes-Kaap loop nie oor nie. Ons weet ons gaan die unistad wen en die Minister moet net daarvan kennis neem. [Gelag.] [Applous.] (Translation of Afrikaans declaration of vote follows.)

Mr C ACKERMANN: Madam Chairperson, the Western Cape gladly supports this legislation. We want to tell the Minister that no one and none of the opposition parties is thinking of using any delaying tactics with regard to this Bill.

The National Assembly addressed a request to the Minister that evidence which has indeed emerged should be taken into account when this Bill becomes law. We therefore also earnestly appeal on the part of the Western Cape that, if the Minister receives further evidence which could lead to better legislation, she should pay attention to such evidence. The issue is about having a better Act on the Statute Book. It has nothing whatsoever to do with any delaying tactics.

With regard to the issue of standards, the Western Cape would like to see standards indeed playing a role when this council is constituted. It is in the interests of our country that standards be introduced which will protect patients and the sick against any people who might abuse this system.

Finally, we in the Western Cape are not crossing the floor. We know we are going to win the unicity and the Minister should just take note of that. [Laughter.] [Applause.]]

Bill agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.

    AFRICAN RENAISSANCE AND INTERNATIONAL CO-OPERATION FUND BILL

            (Consideration of Bill and of Report thereon)

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Order! I call on hon Minister Tshabalala- Msimang in her Friday the 13th capacity as Minister of Foreign Affairs.

The MINISTER OF HEALTH: No, Madam Chairperson, I am still the Minister of Health. I am standing in for my colleague the Minister of Foreign Affairs, and I read this on her behalf.

The last century has seen Africa free itself from the shackles of colonialism. It was a century that saw the continent produce great leaders whose energy and dynamism was focused on channelling the people and countries of the continent towards freedom and democracy.

The eminent African-American W E B du Bois pertinently prophesied in the year 1900, at the First Pan African Conference in London, that the 20th century would be the century of the colour line. One hundred years later, as we stand at the dawn of the new millennium, African leaders have boldly declared the 21st century the African century.

President Mbeki has successfully utilised various opportunities in recent months, during bilateral visits and at regional and multilateral meetings, to present an economic and social development agenda for Africa. It is a comprehensive and far-reaching global agenda to address poverty and the developmental needs of Africa. This package of measures is also designed to address the complex challenges posed to the continent by globalisation. It is incumbent upon us to support the President’s call for the social and economic regeneration of our continent. It is imperative that South Africa should play a leading role in the creation of this new African world. This is why I am today introducing the African Renaissance and International Co- operation Fund Bill.

The introduction of this Bill is historic for three reasons. Firstly, for the first time the concept of an African Renaissance is captured and encapsulated in legislation in South Africa, and, for that matter, by a legislature on the African continent. Secondly, the Bill introduces for the first time a framework and basis for providing funds for the South African Government to identify and fund, in a proactive way, projects and programmes aimed at the promotion of democracy and good governance, the prevention and resolution of conflict, socioeconomic development and integration, and humanitarian assistance and human resources development in Africa or any other area of the world that is deemed a priority.

Thirdly, the Bill introduces for the first time a mechanism through which donor third-party funds could be channelled to recipients and/or joint tripartite projects. The African Renaissance and International Co-operation Fund Bill will provide for the establishment of the African Renaissance and International Co-operation Fund for the purpose of enhancing international co-operation with and on the African continent, and to confirm South Africa’s commitment to Africa.

The principal financial implication of the Bill will be the repeal and disestablishment of the Economic Co-operation Promotion Loan Fund, once that fund’s debit balance has been cleared by either changing the current outstanding loans, to the value of R80,355 million, into grants or writing off the outstanding debt.

The Economic Co-operation Promotion Loan Fund, which we inherited from the previous government, can be regarded as a legacy of apartheid for the fact that it was used to buy friends during South Africa’s period of isolation. This fund was a bilaterally orientated fund that was used reactively after receipt of formal government requests. This often placed South Africa in a precarious position where, in order to avoid potential diplomatic embarrassment, it had to respond to requests by other governments for financial assistance. By comparison the new fund will be multilaterally orientated and provide for proactive involvement in projects and programmes involving organisations and parties other than the governments of countries, although, of course, not excluding the governments of countries.

I conclude: As a country, and as a continent, we must work in concert to achieve the objectives of the African Renaissance, thereby encouraging the rebirth, revival and renewal of our continent. We must take practical steps, in both our regional and our continental efforts, to gain support and commitment from countries and institutions for the needs of all our people. We are not pretending to be ``Big Brother’’ or a donor country. What we can do, and what this fund symbolises, is that we can become involved where we can make a difference. [Applause.]

Mr M V MOOSA: Chairperson, I want to thank the hon the Minister of Health for standing in very well for the Minister of Foreign Affairs today. I congratulate her because she has done well. I must just say that in global terms, South Africa is a net importer of aid, and that in African terms, South Africa is a net exporter of aid. Let me make a simple example: If I have a three-bedroomed house in Bishopscourt, I am poor, but if I have a three-bedroomed house in Khayelitsha, I am rich. And I think that is the principle upon which the African Renaissance and International Co-operation Fund Bill was drafted, because the fact of the matter is that the African continent is a net exporter of capital. From this continent, we export capital more than we export anything else, because of the very serious and severe international debt obligations that African countries have. It has been very encouraging recently to note that China has decided to write off some US $10 billion debt owed by poor African countries to China. And I must say that western countries have not come forth with a similar kind of gesture. They have been talking for the past year about writing off some US $100 billion. [Interjections.] I am not listening to Mr Durr, he usually do not have good things to say about this country anyway. [Laughter.] He should be living in Europe.

The US and a number of other countries said over a year ago that they were going to write off some US $100 billion debt. But they keep on talking about it, they do not do it. I think that there is something to be learnt from the east and countries that have socioeconomic policies that are responsible and people-orientated such as China, and I hope that the western countries are taking note of that.

Coming back to this particular Bill, although South Africa has its own problems, its own poverty alleviation programmes and its own RDP, it refuses to turn a blind eye and to be selfish, but acknowledges the fact that in this subregion we are wealthy, and that our budget, no matter how constrained it might be, would be able to contribute at least a little bit into socioeconomic development in the subregion for the promotion of democracy and the reduction of conflict. And in that context it is very encouraging to see that we are actually getting down to finalising Bills such as this one and moving them through the Houses of Parliament.

In our committee we have made some amendments which are probably going to go back to the National Assembly for concurrence, which I am sure will not be a problem. But the most important amendment we have made relates to the fact that we felt that the fund was structured in such a way that it may have created a loop for civil servants to disburse money out of the fund without the approval of the Minister and the advisory committee that makes recommendations to the Minister. It is was very badly drafted, and we picked that up in our committee and fixed it. So we have brought about what would probably be quite a significant amendment to the Bill. We have communicated that to our counterparts in the National Assembly who see the point, and we even spoke to the the Deputy Minister, Aziz Pahad, and the advisors who agreed that that was a correct and necessary amendment. So we have made that amendment. We have also made an amendment to ensure that the fund falls within the ambit of the Public Finance Management Act, which we thought was necessary because there are a whole lot of safeguards and measures contained in that law and that both the accrual of finance into and the disbursement of finance from the fund are things that are done on the recommendation and approval of the advisory committee and the Minister, in consultation with the Minister of Finance. Those are few of the amendments we have made, and our colleagues in the other House and the Ministry thought that they were useful.

I would like to make a final small correction. The Minister mentioned that we probably may have to write off some loans and grants make to African countries under the other funds that are being incorporated into this fund. She mentioned a figure of R80 000 million which will translate into R80 billion. Before the opposition parties jump up and down and get excited, because they usually do with incorrect facts, that is only about R89 million. [Interjections.] These loans relate to a long period, about 8 to 10 years. The biggest loan, I think, is about R30 million, and they have all gone into socioeconomic issues, and in some instances it probably would make sense for us to write them off. With those few words I would like to support the Bill on behalf of the ANC. [Applause.]

Debate concluded.

Declaration of vote:

Mr K D S DURR: Chairperson, we are not against all of the fine sentiments which have been expressed by the Minister today, in fact, we are all for them. But we have a few problems with the Bill, which is why we oppose it. The one problem is that we think it is wrong for party political slogans to describe legislation. Renaissance is an ANC slogan - that is fine. [Interjections.] We do not think it should find itself into legislation.

I would also remind the House that the renaissance in Europe led to revolution. [Interjections.] It was the reformation in Europe that saved democracy and liberty as we understand it in this House today. So they must be careful before they use eurocentric slogans which they know nothing about.

The second thing I want to say is that although we agree with the changes which were brought into the legislation - in fact, we initiated some of them - we still do not think that this legislation will not be able to be used partially to support particular political parties, and on those grounds we will oppose this legislation.

Bill, subject to proposed amendments, agreed to in accordance with section 75 of the Constitution (African Christian Democratic Party dissenting).

The Council adjourned 11:09. ____

            ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS

ANNOUNCEMENTS:

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces:

1. The Speaker and the Chairperson:

 (1)    Bill, as amended by National Council of Provinces, and rejected
     by National Assembly on 13 October 2000, referred to Mediation
     Committee in terms of Joint Rule 186(1)(b):


     Tourism Amendment Bill [B 50D - 99] (National Assembly - sec
     76(1)) - (Mediation Committee).

1. The Speaker and the Chairperson:

 (1)    The Minister for Provincial and Local Government on 13 October
     2000 submitted a draft of the Redetermination of the Boundaries of
     Cross-boundary Municipalities Bill, 2000, as well as the
     memorandum explaining the objects of the proposed legislation, to
     the Speaker and the Chairperson in terms of Joint Rule 159. The
     draft has been referred to the Portfolio Committee on Provincial
     and Local Government and the Select Committee on Local Government
     and Administration by the Speaker and the Chairperson,
     respectively, in accordance with Joint Rule 159(2).


 (2)    The following Bill was introduced in the National Assembly on 13
     October 2000 and referred to the Joint Tagging Mechanism (JTM) for
     classification in terms of Joint Rule 160:


     (i)     Redetermination of the Boundaries of Cross-boundary
          Municipalities Bill [B 69 - 2000] (National Assembly - sec 75)
          - (Portfolio Committee on Provincial and Local Government -
          National Assembly) [Explanatory summary of Bill and prior
          notice of its introduction published in Government Gazette No
          21635 of 5 October 2000.]

1. The Speaker and the Chairperson:

 The following papers were tabled and are now referred to the relevant
 committees as mentioned below:


 (1)    The following paper is referred to the Portfolio Committee on
     Health and to the Select Committee on Social Services:


     Report of the Medical Bureau for Occupational Diseases for 1999-
     2000.


 (2)    The following papers are referred to the Portfolio Committee on
     Trade and Industry, the Portfolio Committee on Foreign Affairs,
     the Portfolio Committee on Agriculture and Land Affairs and to the
     Select Committee on Economic Affairs for consideration and report.
     The committees must confer and the Portfolio Committee on Trade
     and Industry must report:


     (a)     Amendment Protocol on Trade in the Southern African
          Development Community (SADC), tabled in terms of section
          231(2) of the Constitution, 1996.


     (b)     Explanatory Memorandum to the Amendment Protocol.


 (3)    The following paper is referred to the Portfolio Committee on
     Water Affairs and Forestry and to the Select Committee on Land and
     Environmental Affairs:


     Report and Financial Statements of the Trans-Caledon Tunnel
     Authority for 1999-2000.


 (4)    The following paper is referred to the Portfolio Committee on
     Minerals and Energy and to the Select Committee on Economic
     Affairs. The Report of the Auditor-General contained in the paper
     is referred to the Standing Committee on Public Accounts for
     consideration and report:


     Report and Financial Statements of the National Electricity
     Regulator for 1999-2000, including the Report of the Auditor-
     General on the Financial Statements for 1999-2000.


 (5)    The following paper is referred to the Standing Committee on
     Public Accounts:


     Resolutions of the Standing Committee on Public Accounts for 2000
     and replies thereto obtained by the National Treasury - Fifth,
     Sixth and Seventh Report, 2000.


 (6)    The following paper is referred to the Portfolio Committee on
     Labour and to the Select Committee on Labour and Public
     Enterprises:


     Report and Financial Statements of the National Productivity
     Institute for 1999-2000.


 (7)    The following paper is referred to the Portfolio Committee on
     Finance and to the Portfolio Committee on Trade and Industry. It
     is also referred to the Select Committee on Finance and to the
     Select Committee on Economic Affairs:


     Memorandum on Vote No 32 - "Trade and Industry", Adjustments
     Estimate, 2000-2001.


 (8)    The following paper is referred to the Portfolio Committee on
     Finance and to the Portfolio Committee on Housing. It is also
     referred to the Select Committee on Finance and to the Select
     Committee on Public Services:


     Memorandum on Vote No 15 - "Housing", Adjustments Estimate, 2000-
     2001.
 (9)    The following paper is referred to the Portfolio Committee on
     Finance and to the Portfolio Committee on Education. It is also
     referred to the Select Committee on Finance and to the Select
     Committee on Education and Recreation:


     Memorandum on Vote No 8 - "Education", Adjustments Estimate, 2000-
     2001.


 (10)   The following paper is referred to the Portfolio Committee on
     Finance and to the Portfolio Committee on Minerals and Energy. It
     is also referred to the Select Committee on Finance and to the
     Select Committee on Economic Affairs:


     Memorandum on Vote No 21 - "Minerals and Energy", Adjustments
     Estimate, 2000-2001.


 (11)   The following paper is referred to the Portfolio Committee on
     Finance and to the Portfolio Committee on Home Affairs. It is also
     referred to the Select Committee on Finance and to the Select
     Committee on Social Services:


     Memorandum on Vote No 14 - "Home Affairs", Adjustments Estimate,
     2000-2001.


 (12)   The following papers are referred to the Portfolio Committee on
     Finance and to the Select Committee on Finance:


     (a)     Memorandum on Vote No 1 - "The Presidency", Adjustments
          Estimate, 2000-2001.


     (b)     Memorandum on Vote No 2 - "Parliament", Adjustments
          Estimate, 2000-2001.


     (c)     Memorandum on Vote No 31 - "Statistics South Africa",
          Adjustments Estimate, 2000-2001.


     (d)     Memorandum on Vote No 36 - "National Treasury",
          Adjustments Estimate, 2000-2001.


     (e)     Memorandum on Adjustments Estimate for 2000-2001.


     (f)     Adjustments Estimate of Expenditure to be defrayed from
          the National Revenue Fund during the financial year ending 31
          March 2001 [RP 1-2000].


 (13)   The following paper is referred to the Portfolio Committee on
     Finance and to the Portfolio Committee on Justice and
     Constitutional Development. It is also referred to the Select
     Committee on Finance and to the Select Committee on Security and
     Constitutional Affairs:


     Memorandum on Vote No 18 - "Justice and Constitutional
     Development", Adjustments Estimate, 2000-2001.


 (14)   The following paper is referred to the Portfolio Committee on
     Finance and to the Portfolio Committee on Public Enterprises. It
     is also referred to the Select Committee on Finance and to the
     Select Committee on Labour and Public Enterprises:


     Memorandum on Vote No 23 - "Public Enterprises", Adjustments
     Estimate, 2000-2001.


 (15)   The following paper is referred to the Portfolio Committee on
     Finance and to the Portfolio Committee on Sport and Recreation. It
     is also referred to the Select Committee on Finance and to the
     Select Committee on Education and Recreation:


     Memorandum on Vote No 29 - "Sport and Recreation", Adjustments
     Estimate, 2000-2001.


 (16)   The following paper is referred to the Portfolio Committee on
     Finance and to the Portfolio Committee on Public Works. It is also
     referred to the Select Committee on Finance and to the Select
     Committee on Public Services:


     Memorandum on Vote No 26 - "Public Works", Adjustments Estimate,
     2000-2001.


 (17)   The following paper is referred to the Portfolio Committee on
     Finance and to the Portfolio Committee on Transport. It is also
     referred to the Select Committee on Finance and to the Select
     Committee on Public Services:


     Memorandum on Vote No 33 - "Transport", Adjustments Estimate, 2000-
     2001.


 (18)   The following paper is referred to the Portfolio Committee on
     Finance and to the Portfolio Committee on Arts, Culture, Science
     and Technology. It is also referred to the Select Committee on
     Finance and to the Select Committee on Education and Recreation:


     Memorandum on Vote No 4 - "Arts, Culture, Science and Technology",
     Adjustments Estimate, 2000-2001.


 (19)   The following paper is referred to the Portfolio Committee on
     Finance and to the Portfolio Committee on Communications. It is
     also referred to the Select Committee on Finance and to the Select
     Committee on Labour and Public Enterprises:


     Memorandum on Vote No 5 - "Communications", Adjustments Estimate,
     2000-2001.


 (20)   The following paper is referred to the Portfolio Committee on
     Finance and to the Portfolio Committee on Health. It is also
     referred to the Select Committee on Finance and to the Select
     Committee on Social Services:
     Memorandum on Vote No 13 - "Health", Adjustments Estimate, 2000-
     2001.


 (21)   The following paper is referred to the Portfolio Committee on
     Finance and to the Portfolio Committee on Water Affairs and
     Forestry. It is also referred to the Select Committee on Finance
     and to the Select Committee on Land and Environmental Affairs:


     Memorandum on Vote No 34 - "Water Affairs and Forestry",
     Adjustments Estimate, 2000-2001.


 (22)   The following paper is referred to the Portfolio Committee on
     Finance and to the Portfolio Committee on Labour. It is also
     referred to the Select Committee on Finance and to the Select
     Committee on Labour and Public Enterprises:


     Memorandum on Vote No 19 - "Labour", Adjustments Estimate, 2000-
     2001.
 (23)   The following papers are referred to the Portfolio Committee on
     Finance and to the Portfolio Committee on Agriculture and Land
     Affairs. It is also referred to the Select Committee on Finance
     and to the Select Committee on Land and Environmental Affairs:


     Memorandums on


     (a)     Vote No 3 - "Agriculture", Adjustments Estimate, 2000-
          2001.


     (b)     Vote No 20 - "Land Affairs", Adjustments Estimate, 2000-
          2001.


 (24)   The following paper is referred to the Portfolio Committee on
     Finance and to the Portfolio Committee on Correctional Services.
     It is also referred to the Select Committee on Finance and to the
     Select Committee on Security and Constitutional Affairs:


     Memorandum on Vote No 6 - "Correctional Services", Adjustments
     Estimate, 2000-2001.


 (25)   The following paper is referred to the Portfolio Committee on
     Finance and to the Portfolio Committee on Provincial and Local
     Government. It is also referred to the Select Committee on Finance
     and to the Select Committee on Local Government and
     Administration:


     Memorandum on Vote No 22 - "Provincial and Local Government",
     Adjustments Estimate, 2000-2001.


 (26)   The following papers are referred to the Portfolio Committee on
     Finance and to the Portfolio Committee on Public Service and
     Administration. It is also referred to the Select Committee on
     Finance and to the Select Committee on Local Government and
     Administration:


     Memorandums on -


     (a)     Vote No 24 - "Public Service and Administration",
          Adjustments Estimate, 2000-2001.


     (b)     Vote No 25 - "Public Service Commission", Adjustments
          Estimate, 2000-2001.


     (c)     Vote No 27 - "South African Management Development
          Institute", Adjustments Estimate, 2000-2001.


 (27)   The following paper is referred to the Portfolio Committee on
     Finance and to the Portfolio Committee on Welfare and Population
     Development. It is also referred to the Select Committee on
     Finance and to the Select Committee on Social Services:


     Memorandum on Vote No 35 - "Social Development", Adjustments
     Estimate, 2000-2001.


 (28)   The following papers are referred to the Portfolio Committee on
     Finance and to the Portfolio Committee on Safety and Security. It
     is also referred to the Select Committee on Finance and to the
     Select Committee on Security and Constitutional Affairs:


     Memorandums on -
     (a)     Vote No 17 - "Independent Complaints Directorate",
          Adjustments Estimate, 2000-2001.


     (b)     Vote No 28 - "South African Police Service", Adjustments
          Estimate, 2000-2001.


 (29)   The following paper is referred to the Portfolio Committee on
     Finance and to the Portfolio Committee on Foreign Affairs. It is
     also referred to the Select Committee on Finance and to the Select
     Committee on Economic Affairs:


     Memorandum on Vote No 11 - "Foreign Affairs", Adjustments
     Estimate, 2000-2001.


 (30)   The following paper is referred to the Portfolio Committee on
     Finance and to the Portfolio Committee on Defence. It is also
     referred to the Select Committee on Finance and to the Select
     Committee on Security and Constitutional Affairs:


     Memorandum on Vote No 7 - "Defence", Adjustments Estimate, 2000-
     2001.

National Council of Provinces:

1. The Chairperson: Message from National Assembly to National Council of Provinces:

 Bills passed by National Assembly on 13 October 2000 and transmitted
 for concurrence:


 (1)    Bills of Exchange Amendment Bill [B 47B - 2000] (National
     Assembly - sec 75) - (Select Committee on Finance - National
     Council of Provinces).


 (2)    South African Reserve Bank Amendment Bill [B 62 - 2000]
     (National Assembly - sec 75) - (Select Committee on Finance -
     National Council of Provinces).

TABLINGS:

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces:

Papers:

1. The Minister for Justice and Constitutional Development:

 (1)    Government Notice No R.849 published in Government Gazette No
      21499 dated 25 August 2000, Amendment of the Rules regulating the
      conduct of the proceedings of the several provincial and local
      divisions of the High Court of South Africa, made in terms of the
      Rules Board for Courts of Law, 1985.

1. The Minister of Water Affairs and Forestry:

 (1)    Government Notice No 683 published in Government Gazette No
     21357 dated 14 July 2000, Release of a part of the Berlin State
     Forest which is no longer required for forestry, made in terms of
     section 50(4) of the National Forests Act, 1998.


 (2)    Government Notice No 759 published in Government Gazette No
     21422 dated 28 July 2000, Prohibition on the making of fires in
     the open air, the destruction by burning ground cover, including
     slash and the execution of blockburns in the district of Letaba
     and Pietersburg, made in terms of the Forests Act, 1984.
 (3)    Government Notice No 843 published in Government Gazette No
     21483 dated 25 August 2000, Change of service area by the Amatola
     Water Board, made in terms of the Water Services Act, 1997.


 (4)    Government Notice No 869 published in Government Gazette No
     21520 dated 8 September 2000, Change of name of the Goudveld
     Water, made in terms of the Water Services Act, 1997.


 (5)    Government Notice No R.55 published in Government Gazette No
     21523 dated 8 September 2000, Commencement of section 7 of the
     National Forests Act, 1998.


 (6)    Government Notice No 894 published in Government Gazette No
     21544 dated 8 September 2000, Extension of the period for
     registration of water use in the Crocodile West and Marico Water
     Management Area, made in terms of the National Water Act, 1998.


 (7)    Government Notice No 895 published in Government Gazette No
     21544 dated 8 September 2000, Extension of the period for
     registration of water use in the Mvoti to Mzimkulu Water
     Management Area, made in terms of the National Water Act, 1998.
 (8)    Government Notice No 902 published in Government Gazette No
     21549 dated 15 September 2000, The transfer or disposal of water
     services works, made in terms of section 73(2)(a) of the Water
     Services Act, 1997.


 (9)    Government Notice No 905 published in Government Gazette No
     21549 dated 15 September 2000, Transformation of the Breede River
     Water Conservation Board, the Angora Irrigation Board, the Le
     Chasseurs and Goree Irrigation Board and the Robertson Irrigation
     Board - Division of Swellendam, Province of the Western Cape, into
     the Central Breede River Water User Association - Water Management
     Area No 18, Province of the Western Cape, made in terms of the
     National Water Act, 1998.


 (10)   Government Notice No 906 published in Government Gazette No
      21549 dated 15 September 2000, Transformation of the Goree
      Irrigation Board, division of Robertson, Province of the Western
      Cape, into the Goree Water User Association - Water Management
      Area No 18, Province of the Western Cape, made in terms of the
      National Water Act, 1998.


 (11)   Government Notice No 907 published in Government Gazette No
      21549 dated 15 September 2000, Transformation of the Marthinusvlei
      Irrigation Board, division of Robertson, Province of the Western
      Cape, into the Marthinusvlei Water User Association - Water
      Management Area No 18, Province of the Western Cape, made in terms
      of the National Water Act, 1998.


 (12)   Government Notice No 908 published in Government Gazette No
      21549 dated 15 September 2000, Transformation of the
      Agterkliphoogte Irrigation Board, division of Robertson, Province
      of the Western Cape, into the Agterkliphoogte Water User
      Association - Water Management Area No 18, Province of the Western
      Cape, made in terms of the National Water Act, 1998.


 (13)   Government Notice No 909 published in Government Gazette No
      21549 dated 15 September 2000, Transformation of the Uitnood
      Irrigation Board, division of Robertson, Province of the Western
      Cape, into the Uitnood Water User Association - Water Management
      Area No 18, Province of the Western Cape, made in terms of the
      National Water Act, 1998.


 (14)   Government Notice No 910 published in Government Gazette No
      21549 dated 15 September 2000, Transformation of the Willemnels
      Irrigation Board, division of Robertson, Province of the Western
      Cape, into the Willemnels Water User Association - Water
      Management Area No 18, Province of the Western Cape, made in terms
      of the National Water Act, 1998.


 (15)   Government Notice No 911 published in Government Gazette No
      21549 dated 15 September 2000, Transformation of the Lower Riet
      River, the Richie and the Scholtzburg Irrigation Boards into the
      Orange-Riet Water User Association, division of Jacobsdal,
      Koffiefontein and Fauresmith, Province of the Free State and
      divisions of Herbert and Kimberley, Province of the Northern Cape
      - Water Management Areas Nos 13 and 14, made in terms of the
      National Water Act, 1998.


 (16)   Government Notice No 916 published in Government Gazette No
      21549 dated 15 September 2000, Release of portions of Injaka
      Plantation which are no longer required for forestry, made in
      terms of section 50(4) of the National Forests Act, 1998.


  17) Government Notice No 3272 published in Government Gazette No
      21566 dated 22 September 2000, Code of Conduct for council
      members of the National Forests Advisory Council, made in terms
      of the National Forests Act, 1998.