National Council of Provinces - 14 March 2000
TUESDAY, 14 MARCH 2000 __
PROCEEDINGS OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
_____
The Council met at 10:03.
The Deputy Chairperson took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayers or meditation.
ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS - see col 000.
NOTICES OF MOTION
Mrs J N VILAKAZI: Chairperson, I wish to give notice in terms of Rule 74(a):
That the following matter be discussed at the next sitting of the Council:
The abandonment of unwanted babies and children in our country. Ms C BOTHA: Mr Chairperson, in the absence of Ms Versfeld, I am putting on my sea fisheries hat, one I do not normally wear.
Ek gee namens haar kennis dat sy op die volgende sittingsdag sal voorstel:
Dat die Raad, terwyl hy daarvan kennis neem dat die Minister van Omgewingsake en Toerisme ook verantwoordelik is vir seevisserye en marine- en kusbestuur, derhalwe besluit dat -
(1) dit ‘n saak van die uiterste belang is dat die Minister onmiddellik ‘n ad hoc-raad saamstel om om te sien na die toekenning van visvangregte;
(2) bogenoemde raad onder leiding van die Heath Ondersoekeenheid of die Openbare Beskermer saamgestel moet word;
(3) genoemde raad uit verteenwoordigers van ‘n aantal ander liggame moet bestaan, byvoorbeeld die Prokureursorde, die Advokatuur en natuurbewaringsrade, asook uit onafhanklike navorsers wat betrokke is by die bedryf;
(4) raadslede verplig moet word om enige belange wat hulle in daardie bedryf het te verklaar; en
(5) indien die Minister nie bovermelde aanbevelings aanvaar nie, hy versoek word om dringend ‘n mediaverklaring omtrent hierdie aangeleentheid uit te reik waarin hy sy voornemens in hierdie verband uiteensit. (Translation of Afrikaans notice of motion follows.)
[I give notice on her behalf that she will move on the next sitting day:
That the Council, while taking note that the Minister of Environmental Affairs and Tourism is also responsible for sea fisheries and marine and coastal management, therefore resolves that -
(1) it is a matter of the utmost importance that the Minister immediately appoints an ad hoc board to take care of the allocation of fishing rights; (2) the aforementioned board should be appointed under the guidance of the Heath Investigating Unit or the Public Protector;
(3) the board in question should comprise representatives of a number of other bodies, for example the Law Society, the Bar and nature conservation boards, as well as independent researchers who are involved in the industry;
(4) the board members should be compelled to declare any interests that they have in that industry; and
(5) if the Minister does not accept the aforementioned recommendations he is requested, as a matter of urgency, to issue a media statement in respect of this matter in which he expounds his intentions in this regard.]
Mrs J N VILAKAZI: Mr Chairperson, I give notice that I shall move at the next sitting:
That the Council -
(1) expresses its horror and dismay at the recent incident in Amanzimtoti in which a woman was mauled by two vicious dogs, after which both her arms had to be amputated;
(2) expresses its deepest sympathy with the victim and her family; and
(3) calls on all spheres of government to take whatever steps are necessary to prevent a recurrence of this terrible incident.
Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.
CALL ON UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT TO RETURN ELIAN GONZALEZ TO HIS FATHER IN CUBA
(Draft Resolution)
Ms L JACOBUS: Mr Chairperson, I move without notice:
That the Council -
(1) notes that the United States government has, since last year, continued to deny the request by the father of the little Cuban boy, Elian Gonzalez, that Elian be returned to him in Cuba;
(2) expresses serious reservations about the attempts by the US government to block the latest requests by the father, Juan Miguel Gonzalez, for his son to be transferred to his nephew, Manuel Gonzalez; and
(3) calls on the US government to return Elian to his father, where he belongs, as soon as possible, to avoid further compounding his traumatic experiences of the past four months.
Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.
CONGRATULATIONS TO HANSIE CRONJÉ AND THE PROTEAS
(Draft Resolution)
Mnr J L THERON: Mnr die Voorsitter, ek stel voor sonder kennisgewing: Dat die Raad gelukwensing oordra aan Hansie Cronjé en die Proteas vir oorwinning in die toetsreeks teen Indië. (Translation of Afrikaans draft resolution follows.)
[Mr J L THERON: Mr Chairman, I move without notice:
That the Council conveys its congratulations to Hansie Cronjé and the Proteas on their victory in the test series in India.]
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr M L Mushwana): Order! Is there any objection to the motion?
Mr M BHABHA: Yes, I object, Chairperson, because this motion has been passed already.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr M L Mushwana): Order! I am informed, hon member, that this motion has already been passed. Are you aware of this? [Interjections.] Order, hon members! We cannot all speak at the same time. I ask this House to be in order. Hon member, maybe we should defer the adoption of this motion so that we can check our records. We will give a ruling in due course. OUTRAGE AT SEXUAL ABUSE OF YOUNG GIRLS AT FUNDRAISING EVENT
(Draft Resolution)
Ms M P THEMBA: Mr Chairperson, I move without notice:
That the Council -
(1) notes with shock the contents of a recent newspaper article in which it was reported that girls as young as 14 years old had been sexually molested at a fundraising dinner;
(2) condemns in the strongest possible terms the continued violent abuse and harassment of women;
(3) expresses its concern that failure to act upon these allegations will entrench existing stereotypes, which is detrimental to women; and
(4) therefore calls on the Ministries of Safety and Security and of Justice to investigate these allegations as a matter of extreme urgency so as to send out a message that such sexual abuse of children will not be tolerated.
Mr M V MOOSA: Mr Chairperson, may I add an amendment to that motion? I move as an amendment:
To insert the following words after ``urgency’’ in paragraph (4):
and on the relevant Ministers to ensure that those responsible for
these deeds, be apprehended, arrested and convicted.
Chairperson, I think that would be more appropriate.
Amendment moved by Mr M V Moosa agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.
Motion, as amended, agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution, namely:
That the Council -
(1) notes with shock the contents of a recent newspaper article in which it was reported that girls as young as 14 years old had been sexually molested at a fundraising dinner;
(2) condemns in the strongest possible terms the continued violent abuse and harassment of women;
(3) expresses its concern that failure to act upon these allegations will entrench existing stereotypes which is detrimental to women; and
(4) therefore calls on the Ministries of Safety and Security and of Justice to investigate these allegations as a matter of extreme urgency, and on the relevant Ministers to ensure that those responsible for these deeds, be apprehended, arrested and convicted so as to send out a message that such sexual abuse of children will not be tolerated.
WELCOMING OF DELEGATES TO DEMOCRAT UNION OF AFRICA CONFERENCE
(Draft Resolution)
Mnr P A MATTHEE: Mnr die Voorsitter, ek stel voor, sonder kennisgewing:
Dat die Raad -
(1) kennis neem van die konferensie van die Democrat Union of Africa wat tans in Kaapstad plaasvind onder die voorsitterskap van ‘n voormalige lid van hierdie Raad, Mr David Malatsi, LPW, tans ‘n lid van die Provinsiale Wetgewer van Mpumalanga; en
(2) al die afgevaardigdes van ten minste 13 Afrika-lande na die voormelde konferensie hartlik welkom heet en hulle ‘n vrugbare en aangename konferensie en verblyf in Suid-Afrika toewens. (Translation of Afrikaans draft resolution follows.)
[Mr P A MATTHEE: Mr Chairperson, I move, without notice:
That the House -
(1) notes the conference of the Democrat Union of Africa which is currently taking place in Cape Town under the chairpersonship of a former member of this Council, Mr David Malatsi, MPL, currently a member of the Provincial Legislature of Mpumalanga; and
(2) warmly welcomes all the delegates from at least 13 African countries to the aforementioned conference and wishes them a fruitful and pleasant conference and stay in South Africa.]
Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.
REDEPLOYMENT OF STAFF OF DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE TO ACTIVE DUTY IN COURTS
(Draft Resolution)
Mrs E N LUBIDLA: Mr Chairperson, I move without notice:
That the Council -
(1) welcomes the steps taken by the Department of Justice to redeploy some of its staff at the Head Office to active duty in courts;
(2) notes that many of these staff are experienced and competent magistrates and prosecutors who had been promoted to management positions at Head Office;
(3) is confident that this step will speed up the hearing of cases in court; and
(4) wishes to commend the department for its vision and sincerity to address the problems in the criminal justice system.
Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.
NEED FOR DISCIPLINE AMONG OFFICIALS OF DEPARTMENT OF WELFARE AND DEPARTMENT OF HOME AFFAIRS
(Draft Resolution)
Mr N M RAJU: Mr Chairperson, I move without notice: That the Council -
(1) notes the abysmal state of affairs in the Ministry of Welfare as admitted by the relevant Minister, Minister Skweyiya;
(2) further notes the untenable situation which came to light in the Ministry of Home Affairs of Dr Mangosuthu Buthelezi, where his director-general had taken a case on appeal to the Cape High Court in direct violation of the Minister’s injunction not to do so; and
(3) therefore calls upon the President to instil team discipline in the conduct of functionaries who are failing to discharge their responsibilities with commitment and dedication, failing which these miscreants should be brought to book in no uncertain terms.
Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.
MOTION WITHOUT NOTICE
(Ruling)
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr M L Mushwana): Before we proceed, I want to deal with the motion the hon member Mr Theron wished to move earlier. At the last sitting of the Council, that is on 9 March, a motion was moved by the hon Chief Whip of the Council calling on the Council to congratulate the South African national cricket team, the Proteas, on their victory in India, having beaten the Indians two to zero on their home ground. That motion was passed, and it therefore cannot be moved again.
LOTTERIES AMENDMENT BILL
(Consideration of Decision of Joint Programme Committee on fast-tracking of Bill)
Order disposed of without debate.
Decision of Joint Programme Committee ratified in terms of Joint Rule 216(4).
CONSIDERATION OF REPORT OF SELECT COMMITTEE ON LOCAL GOVERNMENT AND
ADMINISTRATION - REVIEW: INTERVENTION IN OGIES MUNICIPALITY
Mr M BHABHA: Chairperson, the members are in possession of a detailed report in regard to the visit of a delegation to Ogies. I will attempt to highlight some of the more salient features in this report.
On 6 March 2000 a delegation went down to Ogies to execute its obligations in terms of section 139. To be more specific, it is required in terms of section 139 to review an intervention that commenced sometime in June, I think, last year. As a committee we were compelled to go and it was imperative to do so because this is the longest-standing existing intervention that we have had in this House.
Judging from correspondence between the department, this House and Ogies, there was also an impression that the intervention had been terminated unilaterally by the province. We had to go and investigate this. When we interviewed the various role-players in the town, it appeared that it was not the intervention that had been terminated but, in fact, the services of the administrator. What the province found was that the challenges confronting the town required skills other than those that the present administration possessed and that they needed a different approach.
Let me just give members some of the facts and our impressions of what has happened since the intervention commenced. Firstly, there has been some improvement - and that is a qualified ``some’’ - in the services and in conditions there. However, the fiscal reports do not look promising at all. The reasons may be various. One, of course, is that the base upon which the intervention was made at the time was so bad that it is highly unlikely that there could be any improvement in a year’s time.
Secondly, the administrative restructuring that has taken place, particularly where the skills of one administrator were relied upon, may be found wanting, and a different approach is required. In so far as the credibility and the commitment of the residents are concerned, I must say that if we are to judge that on the basis of the rate of repayment on services, then it has increased from a rate of 32% to 33%, to one of 58% to 62%. Therefore there has been a significant increase, but I must add that this is not going to solve the problems of Ogies.
When we discuss matters with the provincial delegation, in particular the MEC, we have to be mindful of two things. One is that whatever measures that are put in place cannot be of a permanent nature, because the new Demarcation Board reports are out, and in its new demarcation proposals Ogies will not exist as a municipality after 1 November, but will form part of the Witbank council. In many ways we have to establish systems so that we can bite the bullet until 1 November, and do so in such a way that services are sustained until 1 November.
The other thing is that one cannot employ people, only to find, when 1 November comes, that one is sitting with supernumeraries because one council now forms part of another council. Those were some of the challenges we had.
If hon members look at they recommendations at the end of the report, they will see that we have recommended the following, and I will go through the rationale and the reasoning behind it:
That the MST …
That is, the management support team -
… submits a business plan to the MEC and the NCOP by 6 April 2000, identifying priorities, problem resolution mechanisms and time-frames for implementation.
Hon members will see now that there is an introduction of a municipal support team. A municipal support team is paid by either the province or the national Government to try to restructure the council without any permanent obligations. They are thus on a contract basis and they come as a team, not as a person. One can rely on a wider base of skills.
Secondly, what we have found - and we will be making a recommendation as a committee to the department regarding section 139 interventions as a whole
- is that in an intervention and in implementing certain recommendations, it may be required that certain employees need to be redeployed or their services terminated, but before the intervention that falls within the purview of the task of the council. The MEC does not have the right to do that because it is a contract between the municipality and the employee.
However, if one has a recalcitrant municipality or is unable to implement that, are there perhaps measures that need to be introduced which allow the legal status in a contract between a municipality and an employer to be subsumed by the province? I think that has to be investigated. I am sure the department is hearing what we are saying here, and I hope they take the recommendation to the Ministry.
There is another area that seems to concern us. We are in a transitional stage, and in many ways section 10 of the LGTA is still implemented. It is still in force until 1 November 2000. Section 10 gives MECs certain draconian powers to just move into a municipality. It is too harsh, but elements of it may be required in forthcoming legislation.
I will give hon members an example of why. What if a council does not meet? One can only take over executive obligations, not legislative obligations. However, if the legislative obligations are not being carried out by a council in order to ratify the executive obligations, the intervention is not worth the paper it is written on. The suggestion this committee is going to make is that elements of section 10 of the LGTA, perhaps, should be included in the forthcoming systems Bill.
We have found - and this is based on fact - that the key areas of Ogies municipality and the administration, and particularly the key position, which is the CEO position, are unable to carry out their obligations. Hence I am talking about the employment contract. For whatever reason, it is not necessary to go into it now, but that is the conclusion that this committee came to. Members will note that in the third recommendation we have now asked the CEO to sign a performance contract to the effect that if he or she, on 1 November, when the restructuring takes place and there is a new council in terms of the new demarcation, is unable to perform, then his or her fate must be judged on his or her performance. It is as simple as that. We cannot afford, and no municipality can afford, nonperforming members or employees, particularly in key positions. That is the third recommendation.
Fourthly, there is an improvement in the element of trust as is indicated in the report, but much has to be done. The residents of Ogies are now pinning their hope on the fact that a new demarcation is taking place and they just have to bite the bullet. I must tell hon members that the committee, when it did visit Phola Park particularly, was pleasantly surprised at conditions there. They are not as bad as may be reflected in the documentation. It could be argued that this is because of the municipality and some could argue that this is despite the municipality. That is an issue that we can debate.
We have tabled this report to the committee. The committee has recommended that this intervention continue. We are also going to make recommendations, as I have already stated, to the department on certain recommendations which we have learned from our experiences. I urge the House to vote that the intervention continue because, certainly, if the intervention ceases now, we will have problems, and Ogies is not in a position to take over its own affairs.
Mr M V MOOSA: Chairperson, will the hon member take a question?
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr M L Mushwana): Order! Are you prepared to take a question, hon member? Yes. What is the question?
Mr M V MOOSA: I was wondering whether the hon member could give the House an indication of how long he foresees the intervention continuing, if the House votes that the intervention continue? Surely there must be a time limit to some of these interventions and the outcomes thereof. So, could he give us an indication of the length?
Mr M BHABHA: Chairperson, I think this is a first - a party member asking another party member a question. However, I think it is a very relevant question. [Laughter.]
We would have liked to put a time constraint on this, but unfortunately we cannot. This has to be linked to certain events rather than to time. Of course, it would be unreasonable to expect the intervention to carry on ad nauseam and ad infinitum. However, the issue is that there are certain events that have to take place. We are in a dilemma - I direct this to Mr Moosa - in that we are not certain whether the events will come first or the 1 November elections. This is the hiatus we have regarding the events and circumstances that are unfolding. Certainly it is a huge concern for us. I can tell hon members that when the intervention took place, the conditions were so bad. The fiscal figures are perilous, to say the least, and I do not know whether there are any stopgap measures.
If the hon Moosa is asking me a direct question, I am going to give him a direct answer. I think we will sit with this baby until 1 November. That is how bad the situation is.
Debate concluded.
Report adopted in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.
REMUNERATION OF PUBLIC OFFICE BEARERS AMENDMENT BILL
(Consideration of Bill and of Report thereon)
Mr M BHABHA: Chairperson, I have three minutes and I am going to be very brief. This Bill seeks to provide for the payment of the National Assembly members, permanent delegates and provincial legislature members who are entitled to salaries and allowances. It stipulates the date from which a permanent delegate is entitled to a salary and allowances, and the payment of salaries and allowances of a premier and a member of the executive council by provincial legislatures. It also provides for other related matters.
I just want to comment on one issue here. The original Bill had something like nine provisions. These have now been reduced, as hon members will see, to three, if I read that correctly. The reason was that this Bill was fast- tracked and had to be passed before the end of this financial year to legitimise certain increases that you, Chairperson, and I enjoy. Pressure would have been exerted on me if I had not passed this Bill. I know that you, Chairperson, would have been the first person to slaughter me.
The fact of the matter is that we then removed six or five provisions from the Bill and decided that they should be introduced as a separate Bill. Those provisions relate to the remuneration of traditional authorities and other matters which require further consideration. We thought we would not be doing justice to those provisions if we dealt with them so hurriedly.
Therefore, the matters which are of absolute urgency are now before hon members, and, emanating from the provisions which were rejected from the original Bill will come another Bill. Does the House not think there is a slight tinge of ingenuity here? You could compliment us, Chair. However, the point is that there will be another Bill following this one. Lest we get confused, there will be another Bill discussing the issues that were excised from the original Bill.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr M L Mushwana): Hon member, I do not want to say that you are intimidating these members to vote in favour of this Bill. [Laughter.]
Debate concluded.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr M L Mushwana): I shall now put the question. The question is that the Bill be agreed to. The decision is to be dealt with in terms of section 65 of the Constitution.
Ms Q D MAHLANGU: Mr Chairperson, may I ask a question?
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr M L Mushwana): No, I have moved too far for the question stage. We are already voting on the Bill. [Interjections.] If you have a question you may ask it during declarations of vote.
As the decision is being dealt with in terms of section 65 of the Constitution, I have now to ascertain the presence of the delegation heads and then give provinces an opportunity to declare their votes if they so wish.
Is any province willing to declare its vote? No one is.
Ms Q D MAHLANGU: Chairperson …
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr M L Mushwana): Hon member, can you get your act together?
Ms Q D MAHLANGU: Chairperson, there was a concern raised by Gauteng province about the salaries of the MECs being paid from the legislature instead of from their departments. That was the issue that Gauteng raised and that is the declaration we want to make.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr M L Mushwana): Hon member, I must state that that is not a declaration of vote.
Is any other province willing to make a declaration of vote? Hon member, are you representing Mpumalanga? Are you the delegation head?
Mr M BHABHA: Yes, Chairperson. I received the permission of my delegation head. [Laughter.]
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr M L Mushwana): Hon member, can you please take your seat? We have just ascertained who is the delegation head and it cannot change so abruptly.
Bill agreed to in terms of section 65 of the Constitution.
LOTTERIES AMENDMENT BILL
(Consideration of Bill and of Report thereon)
Mr M V MOOSA: Mr Chairperson, I want to start out by congratulating those who ventured to play the lottery, and those who won. I am told that there were six winners. Each of them won about half a million rand. That was very nice. I was also a little saddened, because I also played the lottery and I did not win. [Laughter.] In fact, I had three numbers that matched, which means that I have won a prize, but I do not know how much. [Interjections.] It is probably about R20 or something. I have won R23. I wish to announce that. [Interjections.]
I need to say that the Lotteries Act, when it was first established, was drafted in a way which took into account most of the concerns that stakeholders had regarding the lottery. These concerns were mostly in regard to security, the fact that the lottery should not be compromised, and the fact that there should be no fraudulent activity around the lottery.
One of the provisions that was put in the main Act was located in section
- That provision said that people who were involved with the lottery could not play the lottery. However, in the drafting process and in the excitement that people had making sure that everything was foolproof, they cast the net so wide that almost everybody who was involved in some way or the other with the lottery would not be able to play the lottery.
That would include, for example, the people who process the tickets at all 5 000 outlets. Because they operate the computers, they would not be allowed to play the lottery. It would include people in Telkom who deal with the computer lines between the local lottery outlets and the mainframe computers in Pretoria. It would affect everybody. People who handle the computers - in fact, some argue, even people who clean the computers - would not be able to play the lottery. The net was thus cast so wide that potentially tens of thousands of people would not be able to play the lottery because of the way the Act was drafted.
The security measures that were put in place for this Act were extremely good. In fact, many argue that we have one of the most sophisticated lottery systems in the world. That is because South Africa is coming in at the tail end of most of these things. We have learnt from the lessons of other countries so that any fraud that can take place in our lottery can only take place after the draw. In other words, when one watches the television at 8:30 on a Saturday night and the draw takes place, if one wants to cheat the lottery, one can only do it at that time, because before then one will never know what numbers will be drawn.
The numbers are drawn through an airball system, as hon members might have seen on television, and that is not linked to the computer at all. So one would first have to wait till 8:30 and see what numbers come up, and when those numbers come up, one would have to go and cheat the computers. However, one cannot really do that, because by seven o’clock on a Saturday evening, the computers are shut down, and the backups that are taken from the computers are taken to a number of different centres. They go to an independent backup system with the auditors and to another independent backup system that goes to the National Lotteries Board, and of course the main controller of the lottery, Uthingo, also takes a backup.
It is thus virtually impossible for anybody, including Uthingo, the director, the chairperson, the President or anybody to cheat the lottery. The lottery system is virtually foolproof.
That being the case, we decided that it was unfair to exclude so many people from being able to play the lottery. The general view was that we should delete this clause, which this Bill tries to do.
In principle we felt that it might not be necessary, but we drafted another amendment, and we named this the Conroy amendment, because Dr Conroy had suggested that, in principle, the directors of Uthingo and the members of the National Lotteries Board should not play the lottery, because it was distasteful. We know that even they cannot cheat the lottery. Even if they wanted to they could not do so. However, it is just distasteful.
That is how it would come across in the media. From the perception of the lay person who is playing the lottery, if a director of Uthingo or the chairperson of the National Lotteries Board wins the lottery, it would create quite a stir. Because of that, Dr Conroy’s amendment was taken on board. We have allowed for a clause which prevents those people from playing the lottery.
That being the case, it is a very simple Bill. It is a technical Bill. I want to call upon this House to support this amendment in order to make the lottery a better one. I also want to wish all South Africans well in all future lotteries, and hope that one of those winners will be a member of this House who sits in this seat and whose surname starts with an ``M’’. [Laughter.]
Debate concluded.
Question put.
Mr N M RAJU: Mr Chairperson, will the hon Mr Moosa take a question?
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr M L Mushwana): No, we have already begun to vote on the question. You are too late.
Bill agreed to in accordance with section 75 of the Constitution.
CONSIDERATION OF FIRST REPORT OF JOINT RULES COMMITTEE
Order disposed of without debate.
Report adopted in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution. FAREWELL TO SECRETARY TO NCOP
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr M L Mushwana): Order! Hon members should be aware of the departure of the Secretary to the NCOP. We thought it would be appropriate to allow political parties an opportunity to bid farewell to the Secretary.
As you will remember, the Chairperson expressed her sentiments to the Secretary during our previous sitting. I want to take this opportunity to associate myself with the sentiments expressed by the Chairperson. I will now allow political parties an opportunity to bid farewell to the Secretary, if they so wish.
Mr M A SULLIMAN: Mr Chairperson, it is a sad day for us today. We all know that Marion Sparg, the Secretary to the NCOP, is leaving us by the end of the month.
One must acknowledge the vital role she has played in shaping this institution. As hon members know, we have not completed this process as yet. We appreciate her co-operation, dedication and the work she has done for us. We are going to miss her, and may God bless her. Mnr A E VAN NIEKERK: Mnr die Voorsitter, ek neem die vrymoedigheid om die bedanking in Afrikaans te doen, want ek sien die agb Sekretaris het Afrikaans tot in matriek gehad. Sy het ook Latyn tot in matriek gehad, maar ek sal my daarvan weerhou om my bedanking in Latyn te doen!
Gedurende Desember 1997 het me Marion Monica Sparg by hierdie Huis aangesluit en die groot taak as administratiewe hoof belas met die administrasie van hierdie administratiewe warboel-huis aanvaar. Haar aanstelling geskied ná ‘n lang en omvangryke loopbaan in die ANC, en daaroor gaan ek my nou nie uitlaat nie en sy sal my verskoon as ek dit nie doen nie.
In haar CV sê sy haar loopbaandoelwit is om ‘n bydrae te lewer tot goeie regering en die transformasie van die openbare administrasie. Ons sê vir haar dankie vir hierdie doelwit en vir haar vermoëns wat sy gebruik het om in hierdie Huis rigting te gee juis ten opsigte daarvan.
Ons wens haar ook sterkte toe daar waar sy nou heen gaan, en ons glo dat sy ook hierdie loopbaandoelwit sal aanpas en toepas, saam met haar vermoëns, om in die kantoor van ‘n vorige kollega van ons hier, Bulelani Ngcuka, ‘n wesenlike verskil te maak en ook ‘n bydrae te lewer om misdaad in Suid- Afrika in bedwang te bring. Ons wens haar sterkte toe en alles van die beste. (Translation of Afrikaans speech follows.)
[Mr A E VAN NIEKERK: Mr Chairperson, I am going to be so bold as to say thank you in Afrikaans, because I see the hon Secretary had Afrikaans until matric. She also had Latin until matric, but I will refrain from expressing my thanks in Latin!
During December 1997 Ms Marion Monica Sparg joined this House and accepted the big task as administrative head charged with the administration of this administrative house of chaos. Her appointment followed a long and extensive career in the ANC, and I am not going to comment on that now and she will forgive me for not doing so.
In her CV she says that her career objective is to make a contribution to good government and the transformation of public administration. We thank her for this objective and for her abilities which she used to give direction in this House precisely in this regard.
We also wish her everything of the best where she is now going, and we believe that she will also adapt and apply this career objective, together with her abilities, in the office of a former colleague of ours here, Bulelani Ngcuka, to make a decisive difference and also to make a contribution to bringing crime in South Africa under control. We wish her well and everything of the best.]
Mr K D S DURR: Mr Chairman, I associate myself with the comments of my colleagues. On behalf of the Western Cape, we wish Marion Sparg well. I think that one needs to understand that these are epoch-making times for us in our parliamentary history. New habits are being learnt, new conventions are being established and implemented, complex arrangements are being made and the people that work behind the scenes are the people that are making all that happen.
Therefore it is not only a question of wishing one well, but on an intergenerational basis saying to Marion Sparg that we are grateful for her dedication and for the work she has done. We have not always known what she has done, except to know that whatever she is doing, she is doing well and that things are run smoothly. We do want to say that we appreciate it. Obviously, her background as a journalist and in public administration as well as her political pedigree has helped her.
She is a principled person. She has sacrificed much for her political convictions over her lifetime and she has applied that same dedication here. We appreciate that and we wish her well for the future.
Mr P G QOKWENI: Chairperson and members, as a representative of the UDM, I wish to express regret here at having to lose the services of someone of the calibre of Marion Sparg. However, unreservedly, we would like to join others in this House in paying tribute to Marion for the valuable contribution that she has made to the growth of this Chamber and for her leadership role and the responsibilities she has discharged generally as a participant in a collective that developed the conceptual framework of the NCOP and, in particular, as a leader of the management support structure.
We pay this tribute in full recognition of the significance our new democracy attaches to the effect of partnerships in transforming our beloved country and of the fact that we each must act together like the bricks that constitute the wall from which none of the bricks must fall out to cause an unwanted hole. As a component of the political leadership, we would not have realised the success that this NCOP has become, had it not been for the dedication of Marion and her staff to partnership and collective contribution.
We appreciate her humility in allowing South Africans to draw from her wisdom and service to develop this institution into an effective agent of co-operative governance and to strengthen participatory democracy.
We wish her success in her new career.
Ms C BOTHA: Chairperson, Marion Sparg’s name has been known to me for a very long time.
Although we may have differed with her methods, I think none could deny her courage and the courage of her convictions. She did not hesitate to do what she believed was right, no matter the consequences. I think her name will stand in South African history with those of other women of courage that we have bred.
What friends have told me about her is that she has always selflessly put her own interests behind those which she considered to be the interests of the country. In 1996, when she was offered a very lucrative position in the private sector, she chose to serve the NCOP. I believe that she would relate to a particular campaign in 1996, for which, I think, she coined the slogan, ``Thanks a million!’’ This slogan is probably appropriate at this moment from the NCOP to her.
The DP wishes her well.
Mrs J N VILAKAZI: Chairperson, members of the House, it is with sadness that we gather to say goodbye to the NCOP’s first lady Secretary, Marion Sparg.
She will most certainly be remembered, mostly for bringing a degree of stability and order to the NCOP process. During her term of office she worked to see Salga properly incorporated into the NCOP process. She was also the driving force behind the introduction of an information management system for the NCOP. In many ways she operationalised the constitutional constructs regarding the NCOP. The IFP wishes her well in her future endeavours, knowing that she will serve the people of South Africa well, wherever she goes.
Sithi-ke thina be-IFP: Hamba kahle, ndlelamhlophe. [We in the IFP say go well, we wish you all the best.]
Mr J O TLHAGALE: Mr Chairperson, throughout our association with Marion Sparg, I have found her to be a very competent person in her field of operation.
I have found her to be a less talkative person, but somebody who always displayed a very pleasant and likeable disposition.
On behalf of the UCDP I wish to congratulate her on her promotion or her new field of operation. I wish her God’s blessings.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr M L Mushwana): Thank you, hon members. On behalf of the presiding officers, I want to say to Marion that we wish her well in her pastures new.
The Council adjourned at 10:58. ____
ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS
FRIDAY, 10 MARCH 2000
ANNOUNCEMENTS:
National Assembly and National Council of Provinces:
- The Speaker and the Chairperson:
(1) The following Bill was introduced in the National Assembly on 10
March 2000 and referred to the Joint Tagging Mechanism (JTM) for
classification in terms of Joint Rule 160:
(i) National House of Traditional Leaders Amendment Bill [B 15
- 2000] (National Assembly - sec 76(1)) - (Portfolio Committee
on Provincial and Local Government - National Assembly)
[Explanatory summary of Bill and prior notice of its
introduction published in Government Gazette No 20973 of 10
March 2000.]
National Council of Provinces:
- The Chairperson:
1. The Joint Programme Committee on 8 March 2000 took a decision,
in accordance with Joint Rule 216, that the Lotteries Amendment
Bill [B 13 - 2000] (National Assembly - sec 75) be fast-tracked.
In terms of Joint Rule 216(4) this decision must be tabled in both
Houses for ratification.
2. Message from National Assembly to National Council of Provinces:
Bills passed by National Assembly on 9 March 2000 and transmitted
for concurrence:
(a) Remuneration of Public Office Bearers Amendment Bill [B
11D - 2000] (National Assembly - sec 76(1)) - (Select
Committee on Local Government and Administration - National
Council of Provinces).
(b) Division of Revenue Bill [B 8B - 2000] (National Assembly
- sec 76(1)) - (Select Committee on Finance - National Council
of Provinces).
Note: During the Second Reading debate on the Division of
Revenue Bill in the Assembly, it was announced that the
following two technical alterations would be effected
administratively to the Bill agreed to, before its
transmission to the Council for concurrence:
(a) That on page 8, in line 1, "3A, 3B to 3C" be altered
to "3A, 3B or 3C".
(b) That on page 8, in lines 49 to 50, "assume the
responsibilities" be altered to "assume the relevant
responsibilities".
TABLINGS:
National Assembly and National Council of Provinces:
Papers:
- The Minister of Home Affairs:
Report and Financial Statements of the Film and Publication Board for
1998-99.
- The Minister of Minerals and Energy:
Report and Financial Statements of the Nuclear Safety Council for 1998-
99.
- The Minister of Health:
(1) Report of the Medical Bureau for Occupational Diseases for 1998-
99.
(2) Government Notice No 344 published in the Government Gazette No
20848 dated 4 February 2000, Mental Health Care Bill published for
comment.
(3) Government Notice No 93 published in the Government Gazette No
20837 dated 4 February 2000, Chiropractors, Homeopaths and Allied
Health Service Professions Amendment Bill published to inform the
public that the Minister of Health intends to table the Bill in
Parliament during 2000.
(4) Government Notice No 105 published in the Government Gazette No
20855 dated 11 February 2000, Correction Notice to Government
Notice No 10 of 7 January 2000 made in terms of the Choice of
Termination of Pregnancy Act, 1996 (Act No 92 of 1996).
(5) Government Notice No R.137 published in the Government Gazette
No 20880 dated 18 February 2000, Regulations regarding performance
of community service by dentists made in terms of the Medical,
Dental and Supplementary Health Service Professions Act, 1974 (Act
No 56 of 1974).
MONDAY, 13 MARCH 2000
ANNOUNCEMENTS: National Assembly and National Council of Provinces:
- The Speaker and the Chairperson:
(1) The Minister of Housing on 9 March 2000 submitted a draft of the
Home Loan and Mortgage Disclosure Bill, 2000, and the memorandum
explaining the objects of the proposed legislation, to the Speaker
and the Chairperson in terms of Joint Rule 159. The draft has been
referred by the Speaker and the Chairperson to the Portfolio
Committee on Housing and the Select Committee on Public Services,
respectively, in accordance with Joint Rule 159(2).
(2) The following papers have been tabled and are referred to the
relevant committees as mentioned below:
(i) The following papers are referred to the Portfolio
Committee on Health and the Select Committee on Social
Services:
(a) Report of the Medical Bureau for Occupational
Diseases for 1998-99.
(b) Government Notice No 344 published in the Government
Gazette No 20848 dated 4 February 2000, Mental Health
Care Bill published for comment.
(c) Government Notice No 93 published in the Government
Gazette No 20837 dated 4 February 2000, Chiropractors,
Homeopaths and Allied Health Service Professions
Amendment Bill published to inform the public that the
Minister of Health intends to table the Bill in
Parliament during 2000.
(d) Government Notice No R.137 published in the
Government Gazette No 20880 dated 18 February 2000,
Regulations regarding performance of community service
by dentists made in terms of the Medical, Dental and
Supplementary Service Health Professions Act, 1974
(Act No 56 of 1974).
(ii) The following paper is referred to the Portfolio Committee
on Health, the Select Committee on Social Services and the
Joint Monitoring Committee on Improvement of Quality of
Life and Status of Women:
Government Notice No 105 published in the Government
Gazette No 20855 dated 11 February 2000, Correction notice
to Government Notice No 10 of 7 January 2000 made in terms
of the Choice of termination of Pregnancy Act, 1996 (Act No
92 of 1996).
(iii) The following paper is referred to the Portfolio Committee
on Minerals and Energy and the Select Committee on Economic
Affairs:
Report and Financial Statements of the Nuclear Safety
Council for 1998-99.
National Council of Provinces:
-
The Chairperson: (1) The following changes have been made to the membership of Committees, viz:
NCOP Rules Committee:
Appointed: Vilakazi, J N. Discharged: Bhengu, M J.
TABLINGS:
National Assembly and National Council of Provinces:
Papers:
- The Speaker and the Chairperson:
The Report of the Department of Education for 1998-99 [RP 62-2000].
COMMITTEE REPORTS:
National Assembly and National Council of Provinces:
- The Chairperson and the Deputy Speaker, as co-chairpersons of the Joint Rules Committee, present the First Report of the Joint Rules Committee, dated 10 March 2000, as follows:
The Joint Rules Committee, having considered proposals for the
amendment of the Joint Rules, recommends the following amendments to
the Joint Rules:
Joint Rule 71:
To amend Joint Rule 71 (dealing with the Joint Subcommittee on Support
for Members) by the addition of the underlined words and the deletion
of the words in bold brackets:
Chairpersons
71. The [Deputy Speaker and the permanent Deputy Chairperson of the
Council] chairperson of the Assembly Subcommittee and the
chairperson of the Council Subcommittee are the co-
chairpersons of the Joint Subcommittee.
G N M PANDOR B MBETE Co-chairperson Co-chairperson Joint Rules Committee Joint Rules Committee Parliament Parliament
10 March 2000
Report to be considered.
National Council of Provinces:
-
Report of the Select Committee on Local Government and Administration on the Remuneration of Public Office Bearers Amendment Bill [B 11D - 2000] (National Assembly - sec 76), dated 10 March 2000:
The Select Committee on Local Government and Administration, having considered the subject of the Remuneration of Public Office Bearers Amendment Bill [B 11D - 2000] (National Assembly - sec 76), referred to it and classified by the JTM as a section 76 Bill, reports the Bill without amendment.
-
Report of the Select Committee on Economic Affairs on the Lotteries Amendment Bill [B 13B - 2000] (National Assembly - sec 75), dated 10 March 2000:
The Select Committee on Economic Affairs, having considered the subject of the Lotteries Amendment Bill [B 13B - 2000] (National Assembly - sec 75), referred to it and classified by the JTM as a section 75 Bill, reports that it has agreed to the Bill.
-
Report of the Select Committee on Local Government and Administration on Ogies Municipality, dated 10 March 2000:
The Select Committee on Local Government and Administration, having considered progress in respect of the intervention in the Ogies Municipality, reports as follows:
A. Background
On 6 March 2000 a delegation of the Committee visited the Ogies
Municipality in performance of the NCOP's constitutional
obligation to regularly review interventions.
The delegation comprised Mr M Bhabha (Chairperson), Mr E de Koker
(Committee Secretary), Ms D le Roux (NCOP Procedural Services
Manager) and Mr D Franks (NCOP Researcher).
B. Status of intervention
The delegation confirmed that the Provincial Government would
continue its intervention in Ogies. It also established that the
Administrator's contract, which expired on 8 January 2000, would
not be renewed.
The Provincial Government has instead appointed a team of
consultants from Peregrine Treasury Solutions to act as a
Management Support Team (MST) in the municipality. The MST, who is
funded by the Mpumalanga Provincial Government and the national
Department of Provincial and Local Government, will assume
responsibility for the performance of the municipality's financial
obligations. All other executive obligations will be performed by
the CEO.
C. Progress of intervention
1. Provision of services
There has been little improvement in the delivery of essential
services. Recently, the town's electricity supply was cut off
because the council failed to meet the payments due on its
current account with Eskom. The electricity was reconnected
after the Provincial Government entered into negotiations with
Eskom. A payment plan will be finalised at a meeting between
the National Energy Regulator, Eskom, the Provincial
Government and the Ogies Municipality later this month.
A bulk water supply project, involving a total of R2 million
from the CMIP Funds, awaits approval from the Department of
Provincial and Local Government. However, the current
distribution of water has resulted in losses to the
municipality because stolen water meters have made it
impossible to bill certain consumers. There are plans to have
the stolen meters replaced with plastic meters.
The Ogies Municipality also awaits a decision by the
Provincial Department of Housing and Land Administration to
transfer land to the municipality for use as a legal dumping
site. An environmental impact study will need to be done
before the matter is finalised.
The Provincial Government is presently investigating the
possibility of temporarily appointing a Technical Manager to
see to maintenance and repair work on municipal vehicles and
equipment.
2. Financial management
The municipality is still not able to meet all of its
financial obligations. Although the council has approved
credit control and indigent policies, the implementation of
these policies has been delayed by the process of verifying
the indigents' register. The MST is responsible for completing
this process.
The MST is also responsible for compiling financial statements
for the Ogies Municipality, which will then have to be
approved by the Auditor-General.
The municipality presently operates without any capital
reserves or investments. Although it is able to meet its
current operational expenditure, the municipality remains
unable to pay its major creditors. The latest financial
information in respect of the municipality puts its current
debt at R36 322 514, while the municipality itself is owed an
amount of R12 643 115.
The Provincial Government has recently initiated a
rehabilitation plan in this and other municipalities, which
aims to revise the tariff structure, introduce cost
curtailment measures in respect of operational and political
expenditure, and establish sufficient pay-points and a proper
billing system. However, the delegation learnt that the
council was not charging interest on any of its arrears
accounts. Following the visit of the delegation, the council
has undertaken to review this policy.
3. Administrative procedures
The Provincial Government is not satisfied with the
administrative procedures currently in place. The CEO is
responsible for putting the necessary systems, procedures and
policies in place.
4. Meetings of council
The council has not met since October/November 1999. However,
following the visit by the delegation, councillors now appear
willing to meet.
5. Interface with community
Despite attempts by the Administrator, councillors have not
met regularly with the community. This has reinforced the
community's lack of faith in councillors.
6. Competency of councillors
Although councillors remained competent to fulfil their
legislative obligations during the course of the intervention,
the executive committee of the council did not meet at all.
7. Training of councillors
Councillors have been offered skills and capacity-building
courses in the area of their choice. However, due to their
lack of response, nothing has materialised.
8. Training of staff
The Administrator was responsible for developing a training
programme to improve the skills of the municipal staff.
Personnel have regularly attended the courses on offer;
however, staff in the Treasury Division are still in need of
urgent training.
D. Recommendations
The Committee recommends as follows:
1. That the MST submit a business plan to the MEC and the NCOP by
6 April 2000, identifying priorities, problem resolution
mechanisms and time-frames for implementation.
2. That the CEO assume responsibility for the performance of
all executive obligations, except the financial obligations of
the municipality.
3. That the CEO sign a performance management contract with the
MEC for Local Government and Traffic in the Mpumalanga
Province.
4. That the council initiate programmes to win back the trust of
the community.
5. That the intervention continue.
Report to be considered.
TUESDAY, 14 MARCH 2000
ANNOUNCEMENTS:
National Assembly and National Council of Provinces:
- The Speaker and the Chairperson:
The following paper was tabled on 10 March 2000 and is now referred to
the Portfolio Committee on Home Affairs and the Select Committee on
Social Services:
Report and Financial Statements of the Film and Publication Board for
1998-99.
TABLINGS:
National Assembly and National Council of Provinces:
- The Minister of Education: (1) Government Notice No 1398 published in Government Gazette No 20650 dated 19 November 1999, Notification that the President has assented to the Education Laws Amendment Act, 1999 (Act No 48 of 1999).
(2) Government Notice No 1399 published in Government Gazette No
20651 dated 19 November 1999, Notification that the President has
assented to the Higher Education Amendment Act, 1999 (Act No 55 of
1999).
(3) Government Notice No 1400 published in Government Gazette No
20652 dated 19 November 1999, Notification that the President has
assented to the National Student Financial Aid Scheme Act, 1999
(Act No 56 of 1999).
(4) Government Notice No 1422 published in Government Gazette No
20666 dated 25 November 1999, Appointment of persons to serve as
members of the South African Qualifications Authority made in
terms of the South African Qualifications Authority Act, 1995 (Act
No 58 of 1995).
(5) Government Notice No 1423 published in Government Gazette No
20669 dated 10 December 1999, Transfer of funds and other moveable
assets of the State to the public schools made in terms of the
South African Schools Act, 1996 (Act No 84 of 1996).
(6) Government Notice No 1473 published in Government Gazette No
20692 dated 10 December 1999, National policy regarding
instructional time for school instructional offerings made in
terms of the National Education Policy Act, 1996 (Act No 27 of
1996).
(7) Government Notice No 82 published in Government Gazette No 20844
dated 4 February 1999, Norms and standards for educators made in
terms of the National Education Policy Act, 1996 (Act No 27 of
1996).