TUESDAY, 15 MAY 2001 __

                PROCEEDINGS OF THE NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
                                ____

The House met at 10:03.

The Deputy Speaker took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayers or meditation.

ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS - see col 000.

                          NOTICES OF MOTION

                           (Announcement)

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order! I have been informed by the Whips that, by arrangement, notices of motion will be called for when the House resumes its business at 14:00.

                         APPROPRIATION BILL

Debate on Vote No 24 - Agriculture:

UNGQONGQOSHE WEZOLIMO NEZEMIHLABA: Somlomo, malungu ePhalamende kanye nabanye abasivakashele abayizivakashi, bodade nabafowethu, namhlanje sizokhuluma ngeVoti Nombolo 24 leSabiwomali sezoLimo mayelana nokuthi, njengoHulumeni kandlunkulu, yiziphi izimali esizozinikeza kuluphi uhlelo, zizokwenzani kanye nokuthi zizosiza kanjani kulo mshikashika esibhekene nawo wokondla isizwe. Futhi njengoba sinaso isiqiniseko nolwazi lokuthi ezolimo azibhekele nje kuphela ukudla kodwa futhi zibhekene nayo yonke imisebenzi exhumana nezimboni yokwakha impahla kanye nokwakha lezo zinto ezibalulekile esizweni.

Sizochaza kabanzi ukuthi sizokwenza kanjani lokho ukuze silekelele abalimi njengoba sazi ukuthi akusiwo umsebenzi kaHulumeni ukulima kodwa umsebenzi kaHulumeni ukuxhasa ngendlela efanelekile ukuze labo abalimayo bakwazi ukulima. (Translation of Zulu paragraphs follows.)

[The MINISTER FOR AGRICULTURE AND LAND AFFAIRS: Madam Speaker, hon members, visitors, brothers and sisters, today we will talk about Vote No 24 of the Department of Agriculture and Land Affairs. We will discuss issues such as the way we as the Government are going to fund projects and what these projects are going to do and how they will help us in our struggle to feed the nation. As we know, agriculture is not about ploughing only, it also affects clothing factories and other companies that produce things which are important to the nation.

We will explain how we are going to do that so that we can help farmers, as we know that ploughing is not the task of a government. The government’s task is to sponsor farmers in a fair manner so that they can farm well.]

Madam Speaker, I stand before you today to introduce the Agriculture, Budget Vote No 24, for the financial year 2001-02, presented within the context that was set out in the President’s state of the nation address and the Budget Speech delivered by the Minister of Finance a few months ago.

As Government we have succeeded over the past year in improving on the synergy between various departments in the economic and social clusters and have emerged with cross-cutting programmes. The integrated framework for economic growth set by Cabinet seeks to achieve, among other things, black economic empowerment, jobs, competitiveness, economic growth and the development of successful small-scale and medium-scale enterprises.

Agriculture has been identified as a key sector that requires special attention, because of its potential to contribute especially to the objectives of high economic growth. Within this framework, the specific challenges which have been identified for the agricultural sector are: To implement a farmer-settlement programme, including joint ventures in high- value and exportable agricultural products; to design a comprehensive support package for new entrants to ensure improved agricultural productivity and competitiveness; to facilitate the development of new products through investment and research so that, indeed, we can become competitive as a nation; and to facilitate and co-ordinate infrastructure support to agriculture and enhance the national regulatory system.

This is a complex but exciting task which requires the focused energies of the collective. The department has already been actively engaged in a process with the farmers’ organisation and commodity sectors - groups dealing with grain, dairy, red meat and deciduous fruit - with the intention of reaching consensus on the key elements and responsibilities of the different stakeholders in the implementation of a growth-inducing sector strategy.

It is important to report that this dialogue has, in some way, enabled us to assess the impact of deregulation of the agricultural industry in this country, to see for ourselves where some of the weaknesses have been in the way we sequenced such deregulation processes, and also to find out where there have been gaps, in terms of support, so that we can indeed enable our farmers to compete in the global environment. Also, this has enabled us to reposition our sector in order to find a way that we, as a country, can agree on what the fundamentals are and what the choices are that we need to make that will enable our agricultural sector to become part of the strong economic elements in our society.

We will continue with interaction. Within four months we will be able to report to the President on the economic sector strategy for agriculture, which will actually enhance our growth strategy as agreed to by Cabinet early this year. The approach of Government reflects a deeper understanding of the complexities that face South Africa as a country in the fight against poverty and in the inherited inequality characterised along racial lines, which need to be dealt with at the same time as rapid technological changes and increased global mobility of resources, information and opportunities.

This challenge implies that work will be done to continually review and improve, as well as expand on, the scope of the Government programmes necessary to ensure an improved quality of life for all South Africans. Agriculture, as we all know, contributes simultaneously to household food security and economic growth. It also has the potential to safeguard the quality of our national resources. The challenge therefore is to deepen our understanding of what the constraints are that face us as a sector, so that we can indeed invest wisely in accordance with that.

Given our divided past of investment in this sector, it will be important to find solutions that move beyond the subsector interest of a particular constituency at the expense of the others, because indeed, all these are our farmers. It is in the interest of this Government to ensure that those who have been in the game for a long time and those who are new to it, contribute together to food security and the national economy.

This morning as we engage in the debate on agriculture and in the afternoon as we continue with the debate on land issues, I hope we will be able to reflect what we will be doing as a sector and indeed ensure that we can take forward the challenges that face us as regards food security, economic growth and sustainability. Let me share with the House what this Vote will actually reflect, in respect of resource allocation.

If we look at our various programmes, we will indeed agree that there are some issues that we have started to deal with head on. After 1994 we have all been looking at our national dispensation in terms of what the functions are that have to be performed by the national department and the provincial department. Clearly there has been an agreement that the national department will have to look at issues of policy, issues of comparativeness as well as regulatory and monitoring and co-ordinating activities, but we have also asked ourselves whether such institutional responsibilities, with the resource allocations that go with it, are adequate for the transformation of the South African agricultural sector. Our answer has been a resounding no.

Clearly there is room, in our view, for nationally led programmes which will intervene in areas where provincial budgets alone would be inadequate to deal with the enormous task that we face. A case in point was the food- and-mouth disease situation. As members will recall, clearly in such cases, where provinces did not have adequate budgets, the national department had to come along and work with the provinces in dealing with this problem that we faced. The second example that we have seen for ourselves is the implementation of the land care programme as a national initiative.

Our budget this year will therefore reflect some of the national programmes that will be implemented in conjunction with the provinces on the same principle as we dealt with the land care programme. In dealing with the programmes for the department, starting with the line-function programme, I will reflect some of the achievements of the last financial year and the observations and lessons that arise from that experience. It is my hope that we will agree that whilst the current budgetary allocation for the department reflects a welcome improvement it does not go far enough in facilitating fundamental transformation and support to this sector.

If one looks at our second programme, which deals with agricultural support and development, an amount of R89 million will actually be used for a number of activities, targeting the promotion of access for the historically disadvantaged groups, and also dealing with matters on farmer settlement, looking at issues of agribusiness and institutional support, which includes food security, disaster management and corporate support. Clearly we, as a national department, have decided to earmark R30 million of that budget for pilot programmes on food security, with the hope that this amount can increase in subsequent years.

This national programme is a critical contribution to poverty eradication and rural development. Priorities for implementation therefore will be in the 13 nodal points that were mentioned by the President in his speech. In addition, within the context of the social cluster, we have mobilised resources and have also found a way in which we can work together with the Department of Health through their nutrition feeding scheme, as well as the Department of Welfare through their gardens programmes for those mothers who have children under the age of six. It is our view that such a comprehensive programme will actually deal with some issues of poverty that still affect our communities in rural and urban centres.

A second major programme we have had to implement within that same programme has been the farmer settlement programme. We have agreed with the Department of Land Affairs and the provincial departments of agriculture that this year we will actually dispose of 669 000 ha of agricultural state land. The provincial departments will render production support in these settled areas, while the national department will give support in training and market development. The Department of Public Works will work with us in giving support to agricultural infrastructure that is required in such settled areas.

During the Minmec, held last week, we also had deliberations with regard to support to farmers in the communal areas. At issue was the extent to which Government can adequately give support to the food security programme, as well as commercialisation in these areas, given the different patterns of land use and administration that currently exist, as well as the land needs that we so acute in some of these areas.

We are aware - and hon members who come from rural areas will know this - that in a number of rural areas there has been an erosion of grazing land, as well as cropping land, because of the growth of population in those areas. It is, therefore, critical that we should find a way in which we can deal with some of those matters as a Government, so that we can give an opportunity for those people in communal areas to engage in agricultural production for household food security, but also so that they can start to enter a market economy.

If one looks at programme 3, which, deals with agricultural resource management and use, R271 million of that budget will go to the Agricultural Research Council, while the overall amount under this programme is about R791 million. The programme does show some slight improvement in the resources that have been allocated, particularly to the ARC, and it is our view that that amount of money should, to a great extent, be utilised for supporting those critical areas in public investment in terms of research and technology. Hon members are aware that last year, in this House, a number of speakers raised this issue.

All of us must find a way in which we can properly finance the ARC, because of the important role that it plays in our economy. We had a workshop to this effect together with the provinces, and the output of that workshop on the financial strategy, was to agree on the national agricultural research system. We will continue to dialogue with the portfolio committee on how we can have a national agricultural research system that will satisfy our needs, for both the domestic and the international demands on agricultural trade.

At this point I wish to announce that in line with our understanding of the importance of agricultural research and the development of agriculture, we declare the week starting on 21 May and ending on 26 May agricultural research week. The launches will take place today in Pretoria, Durban and Cape Town. At the same time, I also wish to welcome to South Africa the delegates to the 2001 midterm meeting of the consultative group on international agricultural research, which starts in Durban next week. This will be an important forum where South Africa will gain some expertise from policy advisers, as well as top agricultural scientists, on what the trends are in terms of agricultural research, and where we can improve in ensuring that our system does indeed reflect what we need as a country.

It is important for all of us to remember that next year South Africa will be hosting the Earth Summit, and critical to that summit will be the discussion, once again, around agricultural resources as part of natural resource management. The challenge for us is the extent to which we are going to engage in this debate, taking into consideration our experience through the land care programme, where we have been able to ensure that as Government we spend the resources to mitigate against the effects of degradation of our natural resources, working together with the communities.

Programme 4 deals with issues of agricultural production. Included in this matter is the issue of plant and animal health. Given the outbreak of foot- and-mouth disease last year, we realise the fragility of our risk management system as it relates to these mechanisms between national and provincial arrangements. We have agreed, therefore, that there will be some resources that we, as a national department, will earmark to support in the strengthening of the animal health system in our various provinces. We have decided that we will recruit more vets, but we will also put some money into dipping tanks, so that we can revive some of those important elements for the primary animal health system.

Programme 5 deals with the issue of trade and economic analysis. It is important for all of us to realise the importance of this matter, particularly as it relates to our interactions on the international trade front. Hon members will remember that in Seattle we did not conclude the debate on the agricultural round. We have again positioned ourselves to effectively participate in this round, so that we can find a better niche for South African farmers in such a way that what is resolved in those negotiations does take the interests of the developing world into consideration.

We will be consulting, through the trade forum, with a number of industries, so that we can agree on what our strategic approach as a country should be and so that we can position ourselves better during such negotiations at the World Trade Organisation. But, more importantly, to what extent are we able to build our national capacity? We realise that through the provincialisation process we did lose some economic capacity at the national level and that has actually been fragmented in the various provinces. Through the discussion at the technical level and in Minmec we agreed that it is important to strengthen this element. We have therefore tasked the Western Cape department of agriculture’s economic unit to take the lead in this area, so that as both the national department and other provinces we can strengthen our economic analysis capacity. That will help us to support provinces as well as our farmers. This, I must say, is an indication of how we have been able to build some synergy between the provinces and the national department, in the interests of the agricultural sector.

It is also necessary for us to highlight some of the achievements in the past year. There is a programme that we have held annually, which deals with the contribution of women farmers in our national economy. Last year we held the Female Farmer of the Year competition, whose theme was: ``A Millennium Free from Hunger - Women’s Role in Promoting Food Security’’. The competition is aimed at raising the profile of female farmers and recognising their role in feeding the nation and building the economy. This year, we are happy to announce that a new programme partner in this venture, namely South African Breweries, will bring to the table their own experience and capacity that supported the Women in Rural Areas programme. It follows therefore that when the event is held this year, it will be accompanied by the establishment of an association of business women in agriculture.

Again, it is necessary for us to indicate to this Parliament that the anomaly that was realised around the crop estimate was rectified. We set up, as a department, a new crop estimate committee which sought to ensure that the of data that is presented in order to assist us on national planning is verified and correct and is also done without any bias. The 2000 annual farm survey was undertaken and the information available on the emerging farming sector will be made available for the first time this year.

It is indeed true that a lot of collaboration this year and in the past has actually been realised between the national government and the provinces. One of those has been realised through the marketing skills workshop that was undertaken in conjunction with the provinces and that was supported by the Food and Agriculture Organisation of the UN. We will continue to strive by means of such programmes, which seek to strengthen our relationship both as provinces and national Government, so that in the way in which we deal with the agricultural sector we are always mindful of the fact that this is a national system that has to be dealt with a way.

In conclusion, it is important for all of us as members sitting here, to acknowledge the importance of the agricutural sector, as well as the way in which we need to resource it. I think there is no other way that we as a country can feed ourselves if we do not resource the agricultural system in the way we are supposed to. All of us here look beautiful and we are laughing because we have had breakfast, which is what those farmers produce. [Applause.]

Adv S P HOLOMISA: Madam Speaker and hon members, South Africa, like most other African countries, is endowed with amazingly large amounts of natural and material resources to be able to house, clothe and feed all of her people. Yet, due to well-known and rather disconcerting historical reasons, the vast majority of our people remain destitute and hungry.

In our necessary quest for national reconciliation, we should not make the mistake of forgetting the origins of this anomalous contradiction. Our people look to Government to redress those imbalances of our sorry past. We have no option therefore but to conduct our affairs as a developmental state even as we seek to be part of a free market-driven global village.

Sub-Saharan Africa, of which we are an integral part, has identified agriculture as a critical driving force of our economy. Yet, curiously, almost all of these countries pay very little attention to this sector, particularly when it comes to budget allocations. We are fortunate, therefore, to note that Government has committed itself to ensuring that the agricultural sector continues to be viable and competitive in the international marketplace, while it is at the same time geared towards providing food security for all of our households.

As South Africans we are required to all pull together to bring about the realisation of these goals. Like all other aspects of our endeavours, this sector - for it to enjoy the legitimacy it needs - must reflect the demographics of the land. In other words the equitable redistribution of the land must continue to be our defining goal.

The introduction by the Minister for Agriculture and Land Affairs of land redistribution for agricultural development is most welcome. It is aimed at the acceleration of the entry of more blacks into commercial agriculture, which is still dominated by their white counterparts.

We are particularly encouraged to learn that approximately 669 000 hectares of agricultural state land have been earmarked for redistribution in the course of this year. Of course, state land is not enough to address inequities characterising land ownership. Organised commercial agriculture, commodity organisations and other landowners in the private sector must play their part to facilitate the participation of more blacks in productive agricultural enterprises. [Interjections.] Yes.

We are heartened to learn that quite a number of established commercial farmers, particularly those under the aegis of Agri South Africa, are already involved in projects aimed at the training and transfer of skills to their black colleagues. May we have more of such patriots.

Ukupheliswa kokunqongophala kokutya kumakhaya, ngakumbi awabantsundu, kukwizicwangciso zeSebe leZolimo neMicimbi yeMihlaba. Sesifumanisile ukuba akho amalinge okuliwa kwendlala, ngokwezi zicwangciso, kwiPhondo laseMntla, KwaZulu-Natala naseMpuma Koloni. Nangona kuvakala ukuba kusekho amagingxi- gingxi, amalinge okupheliswa kwendlala wona afanelwe ukomelezwa.

Xa ubani ehamba-hamba phaya ezilalini, uya kufika umzi ngamnye unesitiya okanye igadi ekulinywa kuyo iintlobo ngeentlobo zemifuno enjengekhaphetshu, iminqathe, ispinatshi, iimbotyi kunye nombona. Ngamaxesha esiqhelo uthi ubani akuya emasimini afike umbona ukhephuza ngexesha elifanelekileyo, xa imvula isina. Kanti ke kwelinye icala ubani ufika ezo zitiya naloo masimi engalinywanga. Imbangi yoku kukuba abantu abaninzi abanayo imali yokuthenga ucingo lokubiya izitiya, eyokuthenga imbewu nezichumiso, kwaneyokuqesha iiteletele zokulima kuba iinkabi zeenkomo azisekho.

Abantu abaninzi abasezilalini abaqeshwanga. Abanye babo badendwa emisebenzini ababeqhele ukusebenza kuyo, kwiindawo ezinjengemigodi, kwaloliwe nasezifama. Uluntu luya luxhomekeka ngakumbi kwimali yenkamnkam yabantu abadala. Izicwangciso zokulwa indlala zinokuphumelela lula ukuba aba bantu bangancediswa ukuvuselela ulimo kwizitiya namasimi abo. Abantu bangayiphuhlisa impilo yabo xa benokuncediswa babiyele izitiya zabo namasimi, banikwe imbewu yodidi nezichumiso ezifanelekileyo, babonelelwe nangeeteletele.

Apha eMzantsi Afrika sineenqila zeenkosi ezingamakhulu asibhozo, nezongamele abantu abakwishumi elinesibhozo lezigidi. Ukuba inqila nganye inganikwa iteletele enye njengesiqalo, uRhulumente angaba uhambe indlela ende ukuhlangula abantu bakuthi kwikrele lendlala. Ngokubhekisele kwezi zinto sizibale ngasentla apha, ndiqinisekile ukuba xa ubani engababuza abantu basezilalini ngeemfuno zabo kwezolimo, bangabala zona kuqala.

Le nkqubo kaRhulumente yentsebenziswano phakathi kwamasebe akhe inendima enkulu emayiyidlale kuphuhliso lolimo. ISebe leMicimbi yaManzi naMahlathi kufanele ligxabhagxabhise ukusifakela amanzi ukuze sikwazi ukulima izityalo sinkcenkceshe unyaka wonke. ISebe leMisebenzi yoLuntu malisincede ngeendlela namazibuko ukuze sibe nokufikelela emasimini, sikwazi ukusa imveliso yethu ezimarikeni. ISebe loPhuhliso loLuntu malincedise ngemali ebekelwe ukulwa indlala kubantu abafuna ukulima izitiya zabo. (Translation of Xhosa paragraphs follows.)

[The elimination of the problem of food shortages, especially in black households, is one of the plans of the Department of Agriculture and Land Affairs. We have already learned that there are attempts to fight starvation and poverty, according to these plans in the Northern Province, KwaZulu-Natal and the Eastern Cape. Despite the fact that there are problems here and there, these projects should be strengthened.

When one walks around in the rural areas, one finds that each household has a garden in which are planted different kinds of vegetables, such as cabbages, carrots, spinach, beans and mealies. In season one finds mealies blooming if there has been enough rain. Meanwhile, on the other side one may find that the land is uncultivated. The reason for this is that most people do not have money to fence their gardens, to buy seeds and fertilisers and to hire tractors, because they no longer have oxen. The majority of people in the rural areas are unemployed. Some were retrenched from places like the mines, the railways and the farms. More and more, people are becoming dependent on pension grants of the elderly. Plans to fight starvation could succeed easily when and if people could be helped to revive the growing of crops in their gardens and fields. People could improve their quality of life if they could be helped to fence their land, and could be given quality seeds and appropriate fertilisers, and assistance with tractors.

Here in South Africa we have 800 areas with approximately 18 million people under the leadership of traditional leaders. If each of these areas could be given one tractor as a beginning, the Government would have gone a long way towards rescuing people from the pangs of hunger. With regard to the abovementioned matters, I am certain that if one were to ask people from rural areas about what their farming needs are, they would mention these things first.

This Government programme of an integrated development strategy between its various departments has a huge role to play in agricultural development. The Department of Water Affairs and Forestry should expedite the process of providing water so that we can plant and irrigate throughout the year. The Department of Public Works should help us with roads and fords so that we can reach our fields easily, and transport our produce to the market. The Department of Social Development should assist people who want to plough their land with the funds set aside to fight starvation and poverty.]

With regard to the global front, in my humble view the continued distortion of commodity prices through the unfair subsidisation of agriculture in Europe and North America, with the resultant inaccessibility of their markets for our own products, requires a review of strategy. These countries are impervious to calls on them to desist in their conduct, owing to political considerations of their own. The entry of black farmers in internationally competitive agriculture will be a futile exercise if they are not able to gain access to these and other markets, because of the unfair advantage enjoyed by Europe and America. To some extent our established commercial farmers are strong enough to compete with their international counterparts without state assistance. Black farmers on their own do not stand a chance. They deserve and need the assistance of the state. The recent outbreak of foot-and-mouth disease in the province of Kwazulu- Natal was a formidable test of the state’s capacity to deal with a catastrophe of a multidimensional magnitude. The country and, indeed, the world watched with bated breath as the Ministry and the Department of Agriculture, together with their counterparts in the provinces, managed the crisis with amazing professionalism and speed. We all owe a debt of gratitude to the Minister and all who worked with her and ensured that the outbreak was contained and successfully combated. We also thank the livestock owners and traditional leaders who co-operated with the efforts of Government to resolve the problem even when the solution meant the destruction of their precious animals.

Esintwini kaloku ibhanki yendoda bubuhlanti bayo. Ngubani ke ngoko ongavumela ukutshiswa kwemali yakhe ukuze kulungiswe ingxaki? [In the African tradition a man’s bank is his kraal. Who then can allow his money to be burnt so as to remedy another situation?]

We also thank the Treasury for making money available for the compensation of the owners of the animals.

As we have heard from the Minister and no doubt will hear from other participants in the debate, this Government, under the leadership of President Mbeki, has a workable programme with achievable goals. It has practical plans, which are not pie in the sky. In its search for justice and equity for the previously disenfranchised, this Government seeks no enemies and is a friend to those who are in need.

We continue to be disturbed, therefore, by reports of violence on our farms, whether they be cases involving the assault and victimisation of labour tenants and farmworkers or, indeed, the vicious assault and murder of farm owners. True to form, this Government spares no effort to ensure the safety and security of our citizens. The Ministry and the Department of Safety and Security are doing all they can to protect the farming community. Only the naive or plain silly would downplay the efforts of this Government to promote the viability and competitiveness of agriculture.

On the other hand, in addition to the legal measures aimed at preventing arbitrary evictions of labour tenants and farm workers by some demented land owners, the Department of Agriculture and Land Affairs will be setting up agri-villages. These will be established in line with the integrated sustainable rural development strategy, in terms of which all the relevant services for a sustainable settlement are provided. This will work towards the goal of ensuring that none of our rural citizens continue to live on land at the mercy of others.

Critics maintain that the budget allocated to the Department of Agriculture is unlikely to meet the ambitious goals the Ministry has set for itself. Whilst there may be merit in that, we support the Vote because some of the programmes are new and we are able to see how far the implementation will go. [Applause.]

Dr A I VAN NIEKERK: Madam Speaker and hon colleagues, the issue of agriculture is always an emotional or sensitive one, because it affects nearly all our lives. We all eat and many of our people live in the rural areas, which have a striking contrast in terms of richness, affluence, poverty and hunger.

The one sector produces enough food for export, whereas the other one - also involved in agriculture - does not have enough to sustain itself. So this is one of the contrasts. It is also one of the potentials in South Africa. It is a difficult one to manage, and I would like to thank the Minister, the Deputy Minister and the department for the way in which they have dealt with the difficult conditions in agriculture. I think it is the most diverse Ministry, because it has to deal with nearly all problems, from production, reform and international trade and industry, as well as what they entail.

The last year was not an easy year for agriculture - it was a difficult one. We had the problem of declining profits in the industry. We had the problem of animal disease, which affected our whole economy and the international community as well. It sharpened us as to what can happen in the country if we neglect to care about the swill coming from a ship, which is then fed to pigs, and in the end we find that the whole country is under threat in that its exports cannot go out of the country, with tremendous implications. This is especially so in South Africa, where we need growth to help to fight the poverty problem that we are facing.

I am grateful that the Government has decided and acknowledged that agriculture is a growth sector, which can help to remedy the problems that we have in South Africa. That again, I think, comes from the Ministry. The Ministry has pointed out how important agriculture can be.

Can agriculture meet the challenge to really perform and do something to change the face of the rural environment and, indeed, contribute to our economy, which is so needy? The answer to that is, yes, it can. The room for that must be created and the necessary inputs must come from Government, to facilitate such an achievement.

If we look at what agriculture is, we find that, in essence, it comprises about 40 000 commercial farmers - most of whom are white, but there are black farmers as well - and 20 000 part-time commercial farmers. That amounts to about 60 000 farmers. Then there is an estimated 300 000 small farmers spread throughout South Africa, and these are mostly black farmers. I might not know the correct figures - and the Minister could help us. Then there are about 2 million garden farmers who make use of a bit of agriculture to sustain themselves.

If we look at the total poverty problem in South Africa, we find that agriculture does not have the room within itself to rectify the poverty. It can alleviate human distress and give food.

Maar landbou kan nie die probleem van armoede en honger alleen oplos nie. Dit kan ‘n bydrae lewer om lewensomstandighede te verbeter. [But agriculture cannot solve the problem of poverty and hunger on its own. It can contribute to improving living conditions.]

If we look at the agricultural sector in terms of manpower, we find that there are different sectors, each with its own needs. We cannot help the small grain or small garden farmers in basically the same way that we address the problems of the commercial farmers. There are different types of farming advice that have to be given. To achieve this, we must look at the commercial sector first and create opportunities for other farmers to be established. In the first place we have to look at what factors contribute to this.

We live in a deregulated area today. International trade has been liberalised. We have no subsidies in South Africa anymore. Yet we compete internationally with subsidised products from other countries. They come illegally into South Africa. Has the Department of Agriculture and the Government the necessary systems in place to protect our farmers from the dumping of highly subsidised products from overseas? One of my colleagues will speak on this issue. Do the Departments of Trade and Industry and Agriculture have their systems in place to quickly adjust to prevent opportunities in South Africa being taken up by farm products from other countries?

This threatens our economy. If we look at our export markets, there are certain things which the private sector cannot do - and the agricultural sector is mostly privatised. We cannot compete in markets of other countries if we do not comply with the international veterinary and other protocols which must be in place. These can only be kept in place not by private sector vets, but by state vets who have the authority to sign. Are they in place?

An HON MEMBER: Yes.

Dr A I VAN NIEKERK: That hon member says yes. Why then is it taking so long to get the ostrich meat system in place? What is happening? There are a number of things that we have to look at. If we are to look further in terms of what is necessary for agriculture, we have to note that we have commercial, emerging and new farmers. To what extent can we put an extension in place to make the new farmers sustainable and sort out these problems? Is there good co-ordination between the provinces and the hon the Minister? The Minister has spoken about this and I think it is essential.

Sometimes I find it disturbing that when the Western Cape province tries to adjust their way of delivery, the national department climbs on their head and tells them, no! Does Minmec function and does it function well? These are the questions that we from the left, who do not have the inside information, would like to have answers to.

All these farmers need advice and research. Do we have research in place? Current predictions state that in the year 2050 the world will have to produce 50% to 60% more food to feed the world population, yet our research account has been declining in the past few years. Research is necessary for us in the commercial sector, in the developing sector and even for a small farmer with only three or four plants in his garden. Can we afford this? If we do not do enough research and give agriculture the necessary knowledge infrastructure, then it will not be a growth sector. If we do not have the international protocols in place, then agriculture will not perform. If we do not have the necessary extension to accompany small farmers, then that object of the Government will not be fulfilled.

So this is the challenge that we face. This is what we would like to see in the department, and with the money available to them, they should keep those things in place.

Ons moet die regte dinge begin doen en begin in posisie kom. In die geval van die bek-en-klouseerepidemie was ons gelukkig en die saak is goed hanteer. [We have to start doing the right things and start getting into position. We were fortunate in the case of the foot-and-mouth epidemic, and the matter was handled well.]

Luck was on our side in this case, because it could easily have got out of hand. The question is: Is the fence on our northern border in place? Is the red zone in place? Are there enough vets? Are we looking at that, because there are serious questions as to whether our luck will last? But, on the other hand, the harder one works, the luckier one becomes and the more easily one avoids falling into those traps. The question of dealing with small things that have to be in place is essential.

Dit is die klein jakkalsies wat op die ou end die wingerd verniel. Dit is die klein dingetjies, byvoorbeeld in die kommersiële sektor, en ook in die geval van beginnerboere, waar iets wat vir hulle verskriklik belangrik is, naamlik transportaktes, die reg op grondbesit, in ‘n groot mate in die nuwe omstandighede nie heeltemal duidelik uitgespel word nie. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraph follows.)

[It is the little foxes that eventually spoil the vine. It is the little things, for example in the commercial sector, and also in the case of emerging farmers, when something that is of very great importance to them, namely title deeds, the right to land ownership, is to a great extent not spelled out clearly enough in the new circumstances.]

I say to the Minister that I think it is necessary to assure the commercial sector and farmers of South Africa that she is on their side. The commercial sector is willing to help with reform because the knowledge, in terms of reform and practical farming, lies in the commercial sector. They have even said: Help us and we will help you. I think that that is the challenge. The challenge in South Africa is how one can really get those forces together so that we can make a difference in agriculture and then agriculture can really go forward. We can then say that we have contributed to change South Africa in the right direction, we gave righted the wrongs of the past and we have enough food for all our people. [Applause.]

Mr G B BHENGU: Madam Speaker and honourable House, the IFP will support the Vote. The Department of Agriculture has contributed quite a lot to the agricultural sector. Six dovetailing yet distinct programmes that it has implemented highlight this.

Before getting into the finer details of some of those programmes, let me point out that the control of the foot-and-mouth disease was way above average. It was managed in such a way that the disease could not spread countrywide, except to a few provinces, mostly through human and animal mobility from one area to the other. It has raised an outcry in the United Kingdom and Europe. However, here in South Africa the outbreak was on a minimal scale.

I would now like to analyse some of the agricultural programmes. Regarding the agricultural support and development programme, the IFP would like to see the department participate in the Government’s integrated sustainable rural development strategy, including tackling the following issues related to black farmer capacity building.

Black farmers own a large contingency of livestock. It is still debatable whether they see themselves as farmers or not. However, I would like to believe that they are farmers, given the number of livestock that they own. These farmers would not dare sell their livestock, even in the midst of severe poverty, to sustain their livelihood. This suggests one thing and that is that farmers do not attach economic status to their livestock, but only attach personal status to possessing such a contingency of livestock. This is a very interesting scenario that needs the urgent attention of the department. Training and empowerment would bring a paradigm shift in that regard.

Coupled with the above problem is the care of livestock. There is a gradual decline in dipping services and that has a direct impact on livestock as an agricultural commodity. This should be given attention. We understand that the dips are freely available at co-operatives, but ordinary livestock do not use them.

Agriculture is a dominant economic activity and we believe that that very situation should be fully exploited for the benefit of the poor communities. The strengthening of agricultural extension services should be sought. This should help alleviate poverty and unemployment, since our landscape is conducive to agricultural activity.

A departmental survey shows that 37% of rural people are engaged in subsistence farming which sustains families. People should be encouraged to grow from this base to become market producers, so that an age-long practice could be turned into an economic hub for those who engage in it.

Some 60% of subsistence farmers are women. Given Government’s drive to promote and enhance the status of women, I believe that these women deserve departmental attention and help. Subsistence farming purports to be a springboard to commercial farming, as one starts at the back of the house and spreads out into the open field - which, in turn, can generate a big market. Let us explore the known to achieve the desired unknown, where most of these farmers fear to tread. This is what they know and understand. Let us develop it with them and not necessarily for them.

We would like to see collegiality with the Department of Trade and Industry to foster projects that can uplift the poor and make them worthy in the economic setup. Collegiality should also be sought with the Department of Education, to highlight the importance of agriculture in the school curriculum. The Department of Education should give heavier weighting to agriculture as a school subject. The Department of Agriculture should engage itself in a public relations exercise in schools by visiting them to engender the need among educators and students for renewed zeal in agriculture.

We in the IFP welcome with great delight the plan to enhance the status of agricultural colleges by incorporating them into higher education. We believe that standards will improve greatly and thus bring about quality of life, work, research, agricultural extension and production.

The agricultural enterprise strategy which the department also contemplates and is embarking on, will give impetus to the recognition of women in agriculture, particularly those in agricultural communities. In general women have for centuries been at centre stage as regards agricultural production and household care.

Food security is another issue that the department monitors through its programme. I suppose there is an information breakdown along the way. Information does not filter down to small hawkers: it ends with health inspectors visiting big businesses, and the emergent farmers who sell in the streets are not properly empowered in this regard. The hawking business sustains poor families, thus lightening the burden on the state.

Rural development should also entail helping farmers with their vending applications. These are inefficiently handled by the processing office in Pretoria. Applications are not replied to or granted to some of the applicants. This practice serves to encourage stock theft, causing big losses to emerging farmers and ordinary livestock owners. We need to see the strengthening of permit control regarding the movement of livestock from one area to another.

Secondly, there is the sustainable resource use and management programme. We note the envisaged establishment of a agricultural georeference information system. We in the IFP would like to see proaction in this regard.

This programme utilises 51% of the agricultural budget over the medium term in the form of transferred funds to the Agricultural Research Council. We would like to see the council utilising this chunk of the budget to the benefit of ordinary farmers, so that they can access information on important agricultural issues.

We believe that foresight should also form part of agricultural research in order to see the potentiality of outbreaks of disease. Foot-and-mouth disease is a case in point. Although it was efficiently handled we believe that if grazing, feedlot and food security patterns are entrenched they should help determine potential diseases.

We, as the IFP, complement the department on having compensated farmers struck by foot-and-mouth disease to the tune of R8,2 million. This shows the recognition of the importance of agricultural farming.

We would suggest that there should be some kind of co-operation between the Agricultural Research Council and the Weather Bureau, which would expeditiously sound the alarm for the farming community in order to alleviate drought and flood disasters.

Uma sengiphetha, ngifisa ukubonga kakhulu uMnyango ngokuthi ususungule umkhandlu okuyiwona ozobhekana nezinkinga ezihlangabezana nabalimi. Lowo mkhandlu ubizwa ngokuthi yi-Council for Disaster Management. Lokhu kuzosho ukuthi uMnyango wezoLimo kuzoba kuhle uma ubonisana kakhulu noMnyango wezaManzi nezamaHlathi ukuze kungagcini ngokuthi abalimi babuke uNkulunkulu ukuthi ubahlelele isimo sezulu esinjani. Kudingeka bakwazi ukulima ngokukhululeka ngoba benawo amanzi. Uma sibuka abalimi abakhulu, iningi labo linamadamu futhi banakho konke. Ngakho-ke noma ngabe kukhona isomiso bayokwazi ukuqhubeka nokulima. [Kwaphela isikhathi.] (Translation of Zulu paragraph follows.)

[In conclusion, I would like to thank the department for establishing a council that will deal with the problems that are faced by farmers. This council is known as the Council for Disaster Management. This means that the Department of Agriculture and Land Affairs should consult with the Department of Water Affairs and Forestry so that farmers will not have to rely only on God regarding the watering of their crops. They should be able to farm freely and they will be able to do this once they have water. When we take a look at the big farmers, most of them have dams and everything a farmer might need. Even in times of drought, they are still able to farm. [Time expired.]]

Mrs B M NTULI: Madam Speaker, hon Minister, Minister, ladies and gentlemen …

… ngisukumela ukuchaza uhlelo lokwabiwa kwezimali ophikweni lukaHulumeni kwezolimo okuyiVoti Nombolo 24 lezoLimo. [… I rise to discuss this Vote No 24 of the Department of Agriculture and Land Affairs.]

As I rise to give support to this Vote I would like to refer specifically to Programme 30 in Vote No 24, which is the Sustainable Resource Use and Management Programme. This programme provides the overall guidance to ensure that the necessary control measures, planning and monitoring are in place so as to protect the country’s agricultural natural resources efficiently. It is the duty of this Government to ensure that resources such as land and water are conserved for future generations.

The Sustainable Resource Use and Management Programme enables the Department of Agriculture and Land Affairs to regulate, promote and co- ordinate the conservation of agricultural resources, and gives the necessary research support. The Sustainable Resource Use and Management Programme accounts for 53% of the entire agriculture budget. This percentage is translated to R403,7 million, while the ARC accounts for 69,2% of this programme’s allocation. There is a decrease in the funds made available to the ARC. We would have loved to see more funds being allocated to research, because research is an important element in agriculture. But we understand that we are working with limited resources.

Noma kunjalo, besicela ukuthi abakwa-ARC ulwazi asebeluqokelele, maqondana nezolimo, baludlulisele kubalimi abasakhasa basemakhaya kude le ezindaweni ezikude namahhovisi abo. Mabangalugcini ngoba luzosetshenziswa kuphela yilabo abanokufinyelela kulawo mahhovisi. Ngisho ulwazi oluphathelene nezinhlobo zomhlaba, ukuna kwemvula kanye nezinhlobo zezitshalo ezingatshalwa kulezo zindawo ukuze abalimi abancane bangangeni ezindlekweni ezingasoze zababuyisela lutho, balahlekelwe yikho konke abanakho futhi babe nezikweleti abangekwazi ukuzikhokhela. Phela sikhuluma ngempilo engcono kubo bonke njengoba sikulo mkhankaso wokuthi umhlaba ozokwabiwa mawusetshenziswe kahle. Lokho-ke kufanele kuhambisane nolwazi kubo bonke. (Translation of Zulu paragraph follows.)

[However, we would like the information generated by the ARC concerning agriculture to be passed on to small farmers in the rural areas, especially those areas that are far from their offices. They should not keep it to be used only by those who are close to their offices. I am talking about information on types of soil, types of rain and types of plants which can be grown in their areas, so that small farmers will not incur expenses which will not bring them any return in the long run, but instead cause them to lose everything they have and even put them into debt which they will not be able to pay off. We are talking about a better life for all, as we are as regards this programme in respect of redistributing land in a fair manner. This must be accompanied by conveying awareness to everyone.] I would like to remind the ANC that evidence shows that spending on agricultural research has a potentially good spin-off. But the rural poor should also benefit. Information must go down to disadvantaged people of the country as well.

I now turn to genetic resources. These facilitate the availability of high quality genetic material, but the amount allocated for this item is cause for concern.

Ngiyethemba-ke ukuthi nalo lolo hlelo luzothi ukuphuculwa ngokuzayo. [I hope that that programme will be improved next time.]

There is also a decrease in the funds allocated for the Agricultural Land Resource Management Programme, despite the fact that the department’s focus is on efficient water management.

Lolo hlelo lungolubalulekile. Amanzi abalulekile. Siyabonga kuNgqongqoshe ngokumbiwa kwemigodi yemithombo yamanzi engama-750 okungeyamanzi okuphuzwa ngabantu kanye nemfuyo yabo. Mayelana nezinhlelo zokunisela, ngithanda ukuphonsa inselelo kubo bonke abasebenzisa amanzi ezinhlelo zokunisela. Ngithi siphelile isikhathi lapho abanye bebeyizibukeli. Umsele wamanzi ubudlula ensimini kaMaNtuli uye ensimini kaMnu Botha. UMaNtuli ubengabi nalo ilungelo lokusebenzisa lawo manzi. Lokho kuyenzeka ezindaweni ezifana neNanda KwaZulu-Natali, e-Hazelmere Dam nase-Verulam. Ayadlula amanzi kubantu abakhe ezindaweni zabamnyama aye ezindaweni zabelungu kulezo zindawo. Futhi lokho kuyenzeka naseMpumalanga, eGroblersdal, kwi-Loskop Valley Irrigation Scheme kanye nezinye.

Sikhuluma ngohlelo esithi phecelezi i-Integrated Sustainable Rural Development Strategy. Manje, mayelana nokuphucula izimpilo zabantu ukuze zibe ngcono, singu-ANC, sicela ukuthi lezo zinhlelo zokunisela zihlolwe kuthi nalezo ezingasebenzi zilungiswe. Siyabonga ukuthi esiFundazweni saseNyakatho sekuqalile ukulungiswa kwalolo hlelo. Sengathi kungalungiswa kuzo zonke izifundazwe ukuze sihlomule sonke. (Translation of Zulu paragraphs follows.)

[This programme is extremely important. Water is important. We thank the hon the Minister for the digging of 750 wells so that both people and animals will be able to receive water. Regarding the irrigation of plants, I would like to challenge all those who use watering programmes by telling them that the time is over for those who were just spectators. The route for water used to pass MaNtuli’s field to Mr Botha’s. MaNtuli did not have the right to use the water that passed through her field. These situations are still prevailing in Nanda, the Hazelmere Dam area and Verulam in KwaZulu-Natal. Water passed the areas of black people to the areas of white people in the above-mentioned areas. These things also happen in Groblersdal, even in the Loskop Valley Irrigation Scheme in Mpumalanga.

We are talking here about the Integrated Sustainable Rural Development Strategy. Now, in improving people’s lives, we as the ANC would like the watering schemes to be inspected and those that are not working must be fixed. We are grateful that in the Northern Province the fixing of these schemes has already started. We would like to see this happening in all provinces so that we will all benefit.]

We are happy to hear that 800 hectares of potential agricultural land is being rehabilitated through soil care projects in the Eastern Cape, Mpumalanga and KwaZulu-Natal, and that 25 land care projects have been implemented in the North West province. We congratulate the department and the Minister for these. We can also see that R25 million has been allocated for the expansion of this programme. Yes, it is not enough, but it shows that the ANC-led Government is really determined to help the farmers, white and black. This will be an ongoing process within the limited resources. We are also thankful that there are funds have been made available for poverty relief.

As much as we know that South Africa has an abundant domestic food supply nationally, we also know that a large number of our people do not share in this abundance. They suffer the effects of hunger, malnutrition and lack of income, and are vulnerable to diseases.

Babengalambi abantu kusadliwa ngoludala ngoba babelima futhi benemfuyo. Mayibuye i-Afrika. Abantu mabalime amasimu, hhayi izingadi. Ngifuna ukugcina ngokusho lokhu okulandelayo. Uhlelo lokwakhiwa kwezindawo ezihlinzekelwe ikakhulukazi ezolimo, ezibizwa ngama-agri villages, sengathi lungashesha ngoba indaba yokuxoshwa kwabantu emapulazini isaphila futhi iyenzeka imihla ngemihla.

Asingakhohliswa, sibone sengathi konke kuhle kube kungenjalo. Kubi kakhulu emapulazini. Abanye abantwana abafundi, abanawo amakhaya futhi abanayo nendawo yokufihla ikhanda. Sengathi izinhlelo zokwabiwa komhlaba zingashesha ukuze bonke bakwazi ukuhlomula. Lezo zinhlelo zibizwa ngokuthi yi-subdivision of land kanye ne-rezoning of agricultural land. Safa isizwe. Bahlupheka abantu. Kuyoze kube nini? (Translation of Zulu paragraphs follows.)

[In the old days people did not suffer from poverty because they reared animals and cultivated the soil. Africa must be rebuilt. People should plough fields, not gardens. I would like to conclude by saying the following: The programme of giving land reserved for agriculture, called agricultural villages, should be speeded up, because the eviction of people from farms is an ongoing process.

We should not forget and pretend that everything is fine while it is not. The situation is terrible on farms. Some children are not receiving schooling, they do not have a home and a place to lay their heads. We trust that the process of land redistribution will be speeded up so that everybody will benefit. These programmes are known as subdivision of land and rezoning of agricultural land. The nation is really suffering. People are experiencing hardship. How long will this still go on?]

Let us strive towards a better life for all. Let us work for the betterment of agriculture and the lives of all those who are living in the rural areas.

Ngisho bonke abamnyama nabamhlophe, abalimi nabasebenzi. Ngithi makasize uNkk Didiza, makasize. Ngiyazi ukuthi bayazama eMnyangweni. Angiyisoli imizamo yabo.

Ngicela u-Agri South Africa kanye no-Nafu ukuthi nabo babambe iqhaza kulokho. Siyacela nakubaholi bomdabu, amakhosi ethu, ukuthi nabo babambe iqhaza. Kafushane nje, ngizocela nakulabaya bakuloluya hlangothi ukuthi nabo babambe iqhaza, basize futhi bangazenzi ezolimi ukuthi zibe yinkundla yebhola lezepoliki.

Ngicela-ke nakwezamanzi ukuthi abantu abafana noMnu McIntosh abakade behleli kulawa mabhodi ezamanzi njengoMngeni Water Board ukuthi ke bayiphendule indlela abacabanga ngayo, basize abantu ukuze kwabiwe amanzi ngendlela ezokwenza ukuthi afinyelele kubo bonke futhi banisele bonke. Kubalulekile ukuthi thina sonke sikwazi ukuzikhiqizela ukudla, ukondla imindeni, ukuphilisa izingane zethu kanye nokuphilisa nabanye omakhelwane bethu abaseduzane nathi. Ngalawo mazwi amafushane, bengicela kuNgqongqoshe ukuthi abambe aqinise. Ngicela ukusho ukuthi kuye abakhuluma iSeTswana bathi:mmago ngaa na o swara thipa kafa bogaleng. Ngithi makabambe lo mese lapho ubukhali ngakhona asize isizwe sakithi ukuze siphumelele, silime. Sicela ukuthi labo abazothola izindawo zokulima, bathole usizo olwanele ukuze bakwazi ukulima. Empeleni, besikwazi ukulima kodwa samane saphucwa nje lawo malungela ngenxa yesimo esaba khona eNingizimu Afrika. (Translation of Zulu paragraphs follows.)

[I am referring to both black and white people and to both farmers and employees. I ask Ms Didiza to help. She must please help. I know that she and her department are doing everything in their power and I am not overlooking their efforts.

I would like to ask Agri South Africa and Nafu to take part in this. We also ask our traditional leaders to be part of this. In short, I would like to ask people on that side also to take part and assist with this. They should not allow the agricultural issue to become a political issue.

Regarding water affairs, I appeal to people like Mr McIntosh, who were members of water boards like the Umgeni Water Board, to change the way they think and help people by distributing water in such a way that everyone benefits. It is important that all of us should be able to produce food to feed our families, our children, our neighbours and also our relatives.

With those words I ask the hon the Minister to be strong. I would like to say to her that those who speak Setswana say: Mmago ngaa na o swara thipa ka fa bogaleng [A woman could even hold the sharp end of a knife to protect her children.] I am saying that she should hold that sharp end of the knife to help our nation so that it can succeed and start ploughing. We would like to ask those who will be getting ploughing land first to acquire enough knowledge before they start ploughing. Actually, we knew how to plough. It is just that the situation that existed in South Africa deprived us of that knowledge.]

I support this Vote. [Applause.]

Mnr A S VAN DER MERWE: Voorsitter, agb Minister, Adjunk Minister, kollegas, dit is goed om te weet dat die Kabinet besluit het dat landbou ‘n sektor is in die ekonomie. Dit is meer as geregverdig, gesien in die lig dat landbou meer as 4% van die totale ekonomie uitmaak, en 30% indirek betrokke is. Dit is ook goed om te weet dat die Minister sterk voel oor voedselsekuriteit. Met genoeg om te eet, maar sonder werk, kan ‘n mens baie mense baie lank gelukkig hou. As mense werk het, maar sonder kos is, sal dit gou ‘n revolusie tot gevolg hê. Waardeer elkeen in ons land, maar veral die Regering, elke dag dit wat landbouers bydra tot vrede en stabiliteit deurdat Suid-Afrika nog nooit voedseltekorte gehad het nie?

Baie van die sake waaroor ek debat wil voer, is nie direk die Minister se departement se verantwoordelikheid nie, maar as boer beskou ek die Minister, haar adjunk en die departement as dié persone wat ons landbou moet beskerm en in die Kabinet moet toesien dat reg geskied aan landbouers in Suid-Afrika. Ons boere van Suid-Afrika is van die beste kwaliteit in die wêreld, gesien in die lig van ons swak landboutoestande. Ons landbouers sien kans om met ons medelandbouers in die wêreld mee te ding. Ons kan egter nie met regerings meeding nie. Ons vra ‘n gelyke speelveld. Om ‘n gelyk speelveld te hê, lê uitsluitlik in die hande van die owerheid. Ons as landbouers vra ons Minister om wag te hou oor wat in die praktyk gebeur. Vir ‘n gelyke speelveld moet die Minister van Handel en Nywerheid sy kant bring, maar sy het die toegang en die mag om dit te bewerkstellig.

Landbouinsetpryse het sedert 1995 met 43,7% toegeneem en inflasie met 31%. Boere se produkpryse het slegs met 16% toegeneem. Hoe op aarde moet die landbousektor kop bo water hou? Landbou het die afgelope jare na ‘n vryemarkstelsel beweeg, wat goed is. Dit beteken dat die Suid-Afrikaanse boer nie net op buitelandse markte kompetisie het nie, maar ook op die binnelandse mark ondervind ons kompetisie van ingevoerde produkte. Die agb Ministers moet dus baie noulettend na verswaring van kostes aan die insetkant kyk, soos onregverdige belastings, heffings of arbeidswette.

Ek wil graag ter wille van my argument dat dit die Regering se plig is om ‘n gelyke speelveld te bewerkstellig, die volgende syfers aan hierdie raad voorhou: hulp aan die landbou in Suid-Afrika is ongeveer 5%, terwyl dit vir die Europese Unie 45%, Japan 63% en die VSA 22% is. In 1997 was subsidies op suiwel soos volg: SA 13%, VSA 54%, Europa 63%, Japan 90%, Switserland 83%, Oostenryk 71% en Australië 30%. Vandag lyk dit min of meer dieselfde.

Dit neem tot twee jaar om noodsaaklike heffings op gesubsideerde ingevoerde produkte ingestel te kry. Dit gaan landbou in Suid-Afrika onherstelbare skade berokken. Dit beteken verder dat werkgeleenthede verminder gaan word. Kan Suid-Afrika dit bekostig? In Frankryk kry elke boer R600 per elke produserende ooi van die staat af. Die VSA begroot R42 miljard per jaar vir landbou en R11 miljard hierdie jaar om dalende graanpryse te ondersteun. Hoe vergelyk Suid-Afrika hiermee?

Suid-Afrika benodig dringend werksgeleenthede. Hierdie onregmatige storting van gesubsideerde produkte van ander lande is besig om nie net landbou in Suid-Afrika te ondermyn nie, maar saboteer doelwitte wat die Regering daargestel het vir die groei in die Suid-Afrikaanse ekonomie. Dit behels slegs wettige invoere.

Dit bring my by die aan bande lê van onwettige invoere. Die suiwelbedryf het Agri Inspect tot stand gebring. Hulle het daarin geslaag om onreëlmatighede ter waarde van R190 miljoen, of tien sent per liter, aan die lig te bring. Dit het vir die Regering R190 miljoen aan heffings beteken. Dit het ‘n effek van R263 miljoen tot die bruto nasionale inkomste en die beskerming van 9 000 werksgeleenthede tot gevolg. Agri Inspect se insette om skuiwergate toe te stop, het invoere van 38 000 ton in 1997 tot 10 000 ton in 1998 laat afneem. Dit beteken 14% van die produsenteprys van R308 miljoen.

Die suikerbedryf het hulp gevra: 11 500 onwettige invoere van R23 miljoen is ontbloot oor drie maande se tyd. Die invoertariewe hierop beloop R12 miljoen. Daar is baie voorbeelde van sukses in die hoenderbedryf en die rooivleisbedryf. Daar is berekeninge gemaak dat die Regering R1,2 miljard aan heffings verloor het oor die laaste twee en ‘n half jaar. Dan kan die Huis net dink wat die verlies vir landbou was. Dit is nie moontlik vir die staat om tred te hou met hierdie aanslag op ons landbou en die land se ekonomie nie.

Ek wil dus ‘n pleidooi lewer dat die Kabinet dringend aandag moet gee om aan hierdie artikel 21-maatskappy bystand te verleen. Tans betaal die boere daarvoor. Dit is nie moontlik vir die staat om hierdie funksies te vervul nie. Dit is nie moontlik vir doeane en aksyns om mense op te lei in metodes om die ondersoeke suksesvol af te handel nie. Ons kan mos nie langer toelaat dat ons landbouers en die staat so beroof word van ons wettige verdienstes nie. Moet tog net nie hierdie hulp op die langebaan skuif nie.

Ek wil die Ministers gelukwens met hul suksesse tot op datum veral met bek- en-klouseer. Ek hoop regtig dit sal voortduur. Landbou sal nie grootskaalse uitbrekings kan bekostig nie. Ek hoop die Minister is bewus daarvan dat hierdie uitbraak heelwat probleme vir boere tot gevolg het. Boere in die geaffekteerde gebiede ondervind ernstige voortbestaansprobleme en ons pleit ook vir hulp in dié geval. [Applous.] (Translation of Afrikaans speech follows.)

[Mr A S VAN DER MERWE: Chairperson, hon Minister, Deputy Minister and colleagues, it is good to know that the Cabinet has decided that agriculture is a sector in the economy. This is more than justified, in the light of the fact that agriculture comprises more than 4% of the total economy and that it is indirectly involved to the tune of 30%. It is also good to know that the Minister feels strongly about food security. With enough to eat, but without employment, one can keep many people happy for a very long time. When people have jobs, but they have no food, it would quickly cause a revolution. Does everyone in our country, but especially the Government, appreciate every day what the farmers contribute to peace and stability in that South Africa has never yet suffered food shortages?

Many of the issues that I want to debate are not directly the responsibility of the Minister’s department, but as a farmer I regard the Minister, her deputy and the department as those people who must protect our agriculture and must see to it in the Cabinet that justice is done to farmers in South Africa. South African farmers are among the best in the world, in the light of our poor agricultural conditions. Our farmers see their way clear to compete with fellow-farmers in the world. However, we cannot compete with governments. We are asking for a level playing field. Having a level playing field is entirely in the hands of the authorities. We as farmers are asking our Minister to keep watch over what happens in practice. For a level playing field the Minister of Trade and Industry must play his part, but she has the access and the power to achieve this.

Agricultural input prices have increased by 43,7% since 1995 and inflation by 31%. The production prices of farmers have increased by only 16%. How on earth is the agricultural sector supposed to keep its head above water? Agriculture has moved towards a free-market system in recent years, which is a good thing. This means that the South African farmer has competition not only on the international markets, but on the domestic market we also have competition in respect of imported products. The hon Ministers should therefore look very carefully at the increase of costs on the input side, such as unfair taxes, levies or labour laws.

For the sake of my argument that it is the duty of the Government to provide a level playing field, I would like to present this House with the following figures: Aid to agriculture in South Africa amounts to about 5%, whereas in the European Union it is 45%, in Japan 63% and in the USA 22%. In 1997 dairy subsidies were as follows: SA 13%, USA 54%, Europe 63%, Japan 90%, Switzerland 83%, Austria 71% and Australia 30%. Today this looks more or less the same.

It takes up to two years to introduce essential levies on subsidised imported products. This will harm agriculture in South Africa irreparably. This furthermore means that job opportunities are going to be reduced. Can South Africa afford this? In France every farmer receives R600 per producing ewe from the state. The USA budgets R24 billion per annum for agriculture and has budgeted R11 billion this year to support falling wheat prices. How does South Africa compare with this?

South Africa urgently requires job opportunities. This unlawful dumping of subsidised products from other countries is not only undermining agriculture in South Africa, but is also sabotaging the objectives of the Government for growth in the South African economy. This concerns only legal imports.

This brings me to the curbing of illegal imports. The dairy industry has established Agri Inspect. They succeeded in exposing irregularities valued at R190 million or ten cents per litre. This means R190 million in levies for the Government. This affected the gross national product to the tune? of R263 million and led to the protection of 9 000 job opportunities. Agri Inspect’s contribution to plugging loopholes resulted in inputs declining from 38 000 tons in 1997 to 10 000 tons in 1998. This represents 14% of the production price of R308 million.

The sugar industry asked for assistance: 11 500 illegal imports in the amount of R23 million were exposed within a period of three months. The import tariffs on this amounted to R12 million. There are many examples of successes in the chicken and red meat industries. It is estimated that the Government lost R1,2 billion in levies over the past two and a half years. The House can therefore just imagine what the loss to agriculture is. It is impossible for the state to keep pace with this onslaught on our agriculture and the economy of the country.

I therefore want to appeal to the Cabinet urgently to give attention to assisting this section 21 company. At present the farmers are paying for it. It is impossible for the state to perform these functions. It is impossible for customs and excise to train people in methods to complete the investigations successfully. Surely we can no longer allow our farmers and the state to be robbed of their legal revenue in this manner. Please do not delay giving this assistance ad infinitum.

I want to congratulate the Ministers on their successes to date, especially in respect of foot-and-mouth disease. I really hope that it will continue. Agriculture will not be able to afford large-scale outbreaks. I hope that the Minister realises that this outbreak has caused many problems for farmers. Farmers in the affected areas are experiencing serious problems trying to survive and we are also appealing for assistance in this regard. [Applause.]]

Mr B A RADEBE: Mr Chairperson, Comrade Minister, ladies and gentlemen, today we meet again in this august House to advance the transformation agenda of the ANC-led Government. The Agriculture Vote affects everyone in this country, because everyone uses the goods and products which are produced in the agricultural sector. Hence we have to take agriculture back to the people.

In this debate I will restrict myself to the Agricultural Support and Development Programme. In 1955 the Congress of the People adopted The Freedom Charter, whose preamble clearly states that South Africa belongs to all who live in it. This preamble was responsible for the nonracial and nonsexist character of our Constitution and our laws.

Point 4 of The Freedom Charter is more relevant to this debate. It states, and I quote:

The Land Shall be Shared Among Those Who Work It! Restrictions of landownership on a racial basis shall be ended, and all the land redivided amongst those who work it to banish famine and land hunger. The state shall help the peasants with implements, seed, tractors and dams to save the soil and assist the tillers …

I support this Vote, because it really tries to address the aspirations of those people who met there in the hinterland in 1955.

The disposal of state agricultural land and the acquisition of privately owned land for redistribution purposes must place the needs of the previously disadvantaged people first. This must lead to the clear definition of small-scale farming and commercial farming, so that we can have benchmarks of how people from a disadvantaged background are progressing. This would help us to know how many people we have trained to become commercial farmers. We cannot be peasants for ever in our own land.

The old adage says: ``Knowledge is power’’. The department’s communication strategy is very important to the progress of emerging and established farmers. The information centres must be established in all the municipalities of this country, so that the projects and programmes of the department are made known to the public.

This must take the form of newsletters which must be freely available to the multipurpose centres which are built by Public Works, and the radio programmes, in all official languages, must also be relaunched. This will help us, as a country and the department, to be proactive and preventive, so that when diseases are about to strike, we will be able to communicate everything to all the people at the same time, and people should be able to take preventive measures when they know what is about to strike them.

The promotion of successful black farmers in these newsletters will go a long way towards promoting the sector to the people. The department must also be in partnership with the Department of Communications, so that the telecentres can also be used and the communities can access the programmes of the Government from the Internet in these underresourced communities.

Part of the growth of any economy involves the development of its human resources. I am very pleased, as a member of the ANC Youth League, that our predecessors in the Youth League, as far back as 1944, stated in their economic policy that ``there must be mass education of peasants and farmers in the techniques of agricultural production, and this must encompass the application of modern scientific methods in the planning and development of agriculture’’.

The authors of this policy - which is still viable even today - were banished, arrested, and put on Robben Island. But what we found was that the apartheid regime, instead of addressing the policy as a whole, only concentrated on the farmers. How did they do that? They did it by ignoring the peasants and through the huge subsidies which ran into billions of rands which were paid to the farmers only. In the process they made the sector uncompetitive, because the majority of the people were marginalised through those subsidies.

We are happy today that this department is addressing this anomaly through the agricultural bursary schemes, which will ensure that the knowledge gap between the established farmers and the emerging farmers is eliminated. The department must also influence the curriculum of the secondary schools through proper structures, so that the agricultural skills needs of the country are addressed at the level of high school learners.

The Extension Officers Programme must be co-ordinated in such a way that it should have a service standard throughout the provinces. Why do I say that? The reason is that when one goes to the other areas, one finds that the extension officers who are serving the commercial farmers have all the material support, such as vehicles, telephones, etc. But the extension officers who are serving the emerging farmers do not even have transport. One sees them co-ordinating the farmers using bicycles or running around on foot, using their loud hailers. I think it is of paramount importance that the department addresses this concern. At the higher education level, the department must make a concerted input with regard to recruitment, so that we know how many veterinary surgeons we are going to have in a particular year and how many farmers we are going to produce at agricultural colleges, and at the end of the day, we should have a skilful and resourced community that will advance this programme.

In his state of the nation address, President Thabo Mbeki made a clarion call to all the organs of civil society to be involved in the transformation agenda of this country. We are happy, as the ANC, that the structures such as the Afrikaner Bond, MK Veterans Association and Kagiso Trust met and tried to have a common understanding and approach in resolving issues such as the land issue, economic issue and race relations, the result of which has been the bold decision taken by organisations like Agri SA be condemn the farmers who are ill-treating their workers.

At the same time, these progressive members of Agri South Africa are involved in agricultural projects in the previously disadvantaged communities in order to transfer the critical business skills that are needed in this project. This will go a long way towards producing the agricultural entrepreneurs who will be vital to the economic growth of the country.

The department must transform institutions such as the Land Bank so that they can be user-friendly to the new entrants in the sector. Agricultural co-operatives must be helped so that they can operate in global conditions, which are changing continuously. The end product of all these activities will be increased possibilities of self-employment and self-reliance. This can be realised when the emerging farmers are able to gain finance and services at a local level where they are living. They do not have to travel 200km to the Land Bank in order to access finance. This would help in the monitoring and development of these farmers.

The ANC Youth League, at its 21st conference, also identified agriculture as having the potential to grow our economy. Hence it has emphasised that the we must develop the youth’s interest in agriculture.

Regarding the issue of international relations, it is critical that the Minister’s department is in touch with countries and organisations with which we have agricultural links, such as SADC and the European Union, and with new markets such as China and America. This will ensure that markets for our products are open and sustainable. We appreciate the fact that the department will open offices in China and the USA. This will go a long way towards the realisation of the African Renaissance through Youth Development for the African Century. Our youthful entrepreneurs and emerging farmers would be exposed to international markets and trends in a big way. This would make them respectable global competitors. Since charity begins at home, it is of paramount importance that the farming and poverty that we witness in our neighbouring countries is addressed. It must be addressed in such a way that our agricultural products reach these countries at affordable prices. And we must ensure that we do not accept trade agreements that will compromise our competitiveness, eg monitisation. Monitisation is nothing else but the dumping of foreign surplus goods into our economy. We have to stand firm so that we protect our commodities.

We know that through this budget the Ministry and the department are addressing the backlog and aspirations of our people to realise their full potential in the agricultural sector. That is the reason the ANC supports this budget. [Applause.]

Mr S ABRAM: Chairperson, I rise in support of this Vote, and also to present my wish-list to the hon the Minister who, together with the department, needs to be congratulated on containing the foot-and-mouth disease outbreak in KwaZulu-Natal and Mpumalanga, where R14,7 million was spent, R8,2 million of which went towards compensation to farmers. According to the report, the department also recognises the need for specialised skills and expertise in veterinary services. And if we are to take advantage of emerging markets for our products, we will have to be equipped with these skills to compete globally. The average 15,7% per annum growth in salaries and capacitation in this sector between now and 2004 is therefore welcome.

The recent outbreak of foot-and-mouth disease in Europe creates openings for us. Immediate possibilities are to exploit markets hitherto serviced by the EU. Longer-term possibilities are the EU markets themselves. For example, recently the price of cattle hides in South Africa has more than doubled.

However, there are negative perceptions, especially in EU countries, aimed at avoiding red meat altogether. Locally the annual per capita consumption is dropping. Fifteen years ago it was 24kg per person per annum. Ten years ago it was 18kg and currently it is 13kg.

The negative publicity concerning health aspects of red meat, the scourge of mad cow disease, foot-and-mouth disease and anthrax have impacted on housewives’ attitudes, and they now buy chicken instead. Red meat producers have to change these negative perceptions and turn around the consumption per capital. I am therefore appealing to the hon the Minister to consider a contribution towards such a campaign.

Many farmworkers on stock farms own cattle and fit in with the breeding practices of their employers, making genetic progress. However, many are open to exploitation and low prices from speculators when selling livestock. Up-and-coming farmers will also be subjected to similar problems. The hon the Minister may want to consider the creation of a feed lot as a pilot scheme. It can buy in stock at market-related prices, round them off and have them slaughtered. The producers can share in the profits of the feed lot, which can eventually pass into the ownership of formally disadvantaged entrepreneurs. There are experienced stockmen who will be prepared to play mentoring roles.

Another danger facing livestock farmers currently is ``snot siekte’’, which is carried by blue wildebeest. This disease is rearing its head in areas where game farms are being established. Transmitted to cattle, it is fatal. There is no vaccine and one needs to be developed. One never sees a skinny zebra, because of certain parasites it harmonises with. Certain parasites cause havoc, especially for sheep farmers. Research needs to be done into this, resulting in ways to harmonise sheep with such parasites.

Emerging farmers will require stock adapted to veld conditions. Traditionally, the Nguni was a breed. We will have to develop a similar animal with markings, but with much more milk and a slightly larger frame. It must be hardy, survive on veld conditions and produce a reasonable carcass. The department must consider funding such a project. The Australians have shown interest in our indigenous breeds, and the department may consider facilitating funding from such a source. [Time expired.]

Ms C DUDLEY: Madam Speaker, hon Minister, due to the pressures of globalisation, South African agribusiness has to keep up through continual technological improvements. Yet of all the Southern African countries, South Africa has the lowest research expenditure as a percentage of GDP, namely 0,12%. Over the years South Africa has experienced a significant decline in Government expenditure on agricultural research and development, which is in direct conflict with requirements for growth in the agricultural sector.

The effect of decreasing public agricultural research expenditure per researcher has also resulted in the deterioration of the quality of public research programmes. Although there are clear benefits arising from private- sector agricultural research, there are several important arguments that justify publicly funded research, one of these being the notion which exists amongst donors worldwide that helping Third World agriculture through research and development is not in the commercial and economic interests of First World farmers.

Currently, state institutions are relying more heavily on the private sector for new sources of funding. Private-sector institutions do this selectively, focusing more on research and development activities further down the supply chain, for example, in food processing, whilst the focus of public-sector research and development support is on farm-level activities. In addition, the “public good” nature of research output discourages private firms from participating, unless mechanisms exist that will enable private firms to capture, exclusively, the returns to their research.

The Agricultural Research Council was established by the Agricultural Research Act of 1990 to provide agricultural development, technology and support to the agricultural community. It will be necessary for the Government to continue to be an active partner in providing public funding and in providing strong incentives for the private sector to invest more in demand-driven innovations.

The ACDP will vote in favour of the Agriculture budget.

Mr P H K DITSHETELO: Chairperson, hon Minister, in considering this Vote, we should be mindful of the fact that agriculture is the backbone of any developing country and therefore must be accorded the rightful status it deserves in the allocation of resources.

The UCDP acknowledges the work done by the Department of Agriculture in promoting agricultural development for growth, equity and social development in South Africa. We further stress that more effort is required to complete this mission as more work remains to be done. It is imperative that the department deploys more resources in areas that would facilitate food security, entrepreneurial development and black commercial-farmer settlement.

The state should also facilitate the disposal of its agricultural land. We also urge the department to continue with the Female Farmer of the Year competition as this will encourage other women to consider farming as a business and not only as a sector in which they are workers.

Furthermore, we welcome the R10 million a year allocated for the special programme on food security. Modest as it is, we view this expenditure as an investment necessary to deal with the poverty in rural communities.

The budget which is presented by the department partly demonstrates that there is a positive move in allocating resources to programmes compared to salaries. However, it is imperative that resources allocated to these programmes are monitored to ensure that unnecessary roll-overs are prevented, as they impact negatively on delivery.

The UCDP gives the budget of the Minister for Agriculture and Land Affairs the green light and asks the House to support it.

The DEPUTY MINISTER FOR AGRICULTURE AND LAND AFFAIRS: Chairperson, I have decided to talk about animal health services to give some depth to and get clarity on this matter.

I would like to say to the hon Dr Van Niekerk that we were not lucky in KwaZulu-Natal as regards the foot-and-mouth disease outbreak. We were really good. For that reason I must thank everyone concerned, because this was one of those illustrations of team effort really working. I must thank everyone concerned: from the army, to the farmers, to the veterinarians, to national and provincial staff, and including the Minister for her leadership. It was a case of South Africa at its best; South Africans at their best in a crisis situation. [Applause.]

Now, regarding livestock production …

An HON MEMBER: There is still none.

The DEPUTY MINISTER: I will only admit that I think God was on our side. That is the only thing I will admit. I do not believe in luck.

Livestock production relies heavily on the availability of quality animal health services. That is the bottom line. Livestock production in South Africa is the largest contributor to the agricultural GDP. We have to take it seriously.

Everyone knows that veterinary services in South Africa have a proud history in terms of quality and technical competence. The problem in South Africa is the inequality which has been handed over to us. Why were veterinary services always good in South Africa? I think the biggest reason

• and this we have to admit - is that we had an integrated, unitary animal health service system in this country. [Interjections.] That is why the services were able to achieve those high standards. That was why we could eradicate Rinderpes in 1994. That is why we could eradicate lung sickness in 1924, and on the east coast in 1954. And so one can go on, strongly.

That is also why we had a high standard of training. We had dedicated teams for delivery. We had an up-to-date animal disease surveillance system. We had diagnostic referral and research systems, and a proud history of vaccine production. However, as I say, the past was accompanied by gross imbalances, levels of development and delivery of services.

In this century - the 21st century - the countries that will succeed in animal production will become world leaders, they will be able to face challenges such as globalisation. It will not be the countries who rely on past systems, but the ones that ensure that their systems, as are they are now, are efficient, responsible and tuned into the demands that will arise in the future.

But what has happened in South Africa, let us face it, is that since 1994 several structural factors have impacted on the veterinary services system in South Africa. Most profound of those have been the political changes in the new constitutional dispensation. They have resulted, needfully and correctly so, in the need to broaden access to agricultural services in an equitable manner. What worked against our capacity in this regard was the required restructuring of the national Department of Agriculture and the establishment of nine new provincial structures. This complicated an already difficult task.

The second major factor was the opening of the international markets for South African products after a long period of sanctions. This led to national deregulation and we had more pressure on us to meet international obligations and guarantee the safety of animals and animal products for export.

What happened? Our veterinary services became fragmented. It could not deliver quality services and guarantees for animal health, as well as import and export control. The decentralisation created an impossible situation in South Africa in the structural sense. Veterinary services at both national and provincial are, and continue to be, understaffed. Budgeting and planning for veterinary services are undermined by multiple levels at which decisions are to be made.

The previous president of the Czech Republic, Vaclav Havel, made a famous speech some 10 years ago an New Year’s Day. He used these words: You have not elected me to this office so that I should lie to you. Our country is not blooming.

I can assure this House that the provincial system, with regard to veterinary services that we put in place in 1994 and re-enacted in 1996, has reached a stage where we can say that the services are not blooming. We have to be truthful about it. The risks of introducing new diseases have multiplied. We have illegal imports and uncontrolled movements, and the problem is existing to a much greater degree in the communal areas. We are not providing those people with sufficient services.

The recent outbreak of foot-and-mouth disease has indicated weaknesses in our surveillance systems and the delivery of veterinary services to communal areas. We cannot accept where we stand at the moment. It is calculated that infectious diseases account for about 35% of the losses in production efficiency in the developing countries. Inspection tours of the EC have shown that there are weaknesses in our systems.

What must our vision for the future be? What we need is a comprehensive system, well co-ordinated health services and food safety measures, because those things go together. The challenge we face is to design a system, crippled as we are by the constitutional dispensation which we have in this regard in South Africa. We have to clarify our functions and do the best we can.

In Schedule 5 of the constitution, which deals with functional areas of exclusive provincial legislative competence, it is said that abattoirs'' including municipal abattoirs, andveterinary services’’ are exclusive competences of the provinces. In Schedule 4 of the constitution, which deals with functional areas of concurrent national and provincial legislative competence, “animal control and diseases” is identified as a concurrent national and provincial competence. This is totally absurd, because “veterinary services”, which is an exclusive competence of the provinces, includes “animal control and diseases” and “abattoirs”. One could just as well say that “animal control and diseases” includes “veterinary services” and “abattoirs”. This is something which we have to rectify.

If one reads section 146 of the Constitution regarding the criteria we must apply when these is a conflict between national and provincial legislation, together with the international conventions that are applicable in this regard, we can only say one thing: International practice and law require the national sphere of Government and no other to be the sole and competent authority to take responsibility for veterinary services. Anything less is not acceptable, and would result in the reclassification of South Africa’s status from safe to high risk.

We can try and design an interim system, working with this poor constitutional situation which we have, or we can be decisive and decide that we should amend the Constitution, and admit that we have now learnt that it cannot work. George Bernard Shaw once said:

The only thing we learn from experience is that we do not learn anything from experience.

Let us learn from our experience. Let us be strong enough to say that we have to do this. The farming community, the producing sectors, are all in agreement that we should get this right. Hon members know the arguments. I do not what to make politics out of this. We should not make politics out of this. It was introduced in Act 2 of 1994 to get all the parties into the constitutional process under the interim Constitution. All these things came into our Constitution … [Time expired.] [Applause.]

Dr M S MOGOBA: Chairperson, hon members, the PAC naturally supports this Vote. Many people who have grown up in our urban jungle may be excused for not knowing that milk comes from a cow, that meat comes from some domestic animal and that the greengrocer and the baker both depend entirely on the farmer. There are, however, many others who behave as if they do not know these facts, and as if they think they can eat money.

This Vote before us today addresses the mundane issues of food production, the feeding of the nation and the development of our beloved land and people. The Department of Agriculture places the farmer in the middle. The security of the farming community and the stability of the farming industry are matters of the utmost importance.

The PAC is totally committed to fighting crime in our country, and particularly crime directed at our farming community. The PAC is equally concerned about the slow pace of transformation. We must deracialise the farming community with all the speed that we can muster. The concept farmer/boer is not a racial or colour matter. Our food producers must reflect the demography of our country.

Our first proposal is that the South African farming community must avoid using the English and Afrikaans words to designate themselves. They carry the baggage of prejudice and racism from the past. We, therefore, recommend the use of the Sesotho, Zulu, Xhosa or Venda word, mulimi or umlimi, which would express the nonracial nature of our farming community.

National agricultural shows should be revived, and on these occasions food producers must be publicly and nationally applauded and model farmers must be given national awards. The new farmers from the previously disadvantaged communities of our nation should be publicly encouraged, and clear affirmative action taken to encourage them in the field of training and financing.

We should not be ashamed of doing this openly and deliberately. The incidents of many black farmers who have been discouraged and blatantly discriminated against should fill us with shame. We are creating a new South African society from the dust heap of our shameful history. We should not drag our feet in this operation and exercise. Agriculture should occupy a prominent place in our educational system. [Time expired.]

Miss S RAJBALLY: Chairperson, Minister, the MF compliments the Government for creating opportunities to resource poor farmers through the Department of Agriculture, which contributes to rural development in line with the integrated sustainable rural development strategy. Sustained agricultural economic growth, equity and social development can be achieved through the implementation of programmes that cater for the needs of individuals from the grass-roots level.

The MF finds it commendable that at the national level key objectives of agriculture are being addressed through six vital programmes, namely administration, agriculture support and development, sustainable resource management, agricultural production, agricultural trade, economic and policy analysis and auxiliary services. For far too long the majority have been deprived of their equitable services, especially their land, which was taken away from them and given to the minorities. Now, in postapartheid South Africa, the new democratic Government is attempting to level the playing fields and give back to the African farmers what is rightfully theirs. However, this will require much patience from the majority, as it will take some time before the Department of Agriculture fully implements the seven priority programmes, but at least now the people have hope, if nothing else, to look forward to.

The MF welcomes the slight increase in the appropriated amount of R95 000 for the 2000-2001 budget. It is significant to note the much-needed increase in the growth rate of the expenditure on agricultural trade and economic analysis. However, the MF does not welcome the decrease in the amount allocated to agricultural research and the reduction in the amount allocated for the agricultural land resource management subprogramme, since the department’s focus is on efficient water management and the conservation of biodiversity.

The MF recommends that more money be allocated to the veterinary service subprogramme and urgent measures be taken by the Department of Agriculture to ensure that foot-and-mouth disease is contained, and that the risk of a future outbreak is reduced. However, the MF compliments the Minister for Agriculture and Land Affairs on amending section 29 of the Conservation of Agricultural Resources Act of 1983, regarding declared indicators of bush encroachment'' anddeclared weeds and invasive plants’’.

The MF is also looking forward to the meeting to be hosted in Durban this month by the Department of Agriculture, where hundreds of scientists and researchers from around the world will join the consultative group and international agricultural research members for a week of activities, focusing on the future of design and management agriculture in our country.

Agriculture is a generator of wealth and constitutes one of the key industries in the country’s economy. The MF is content to note that the success of South Africa’s agricultural research programme has given the country the capacity to solve problems with regard to agriculture and food production in South Africa. The MF supports the Agriculture Vote. [Applause.]

Mnr C AUCAMP: Voorsitter, die landbousektor word regdeur die wêreld beskou as die beste barometer van die stand van ‘n land se ekonomie. Agb lede kan maar gaan kyk, as dit met die landbou goed gaan, gaan dit met die land ook goed. In Suid-Afrika is dit nog meer die geval.

Die landbou is een van die grootste bronne van werkverskaffing, vir die verdien van valuta en is van strategiese belang vir Suid-Afrika om in sy eie behoeftes te voorsien. Om die landbou te reguleer, moniteer en koördineer, is gewis nie ‘n maklike taak nie. Wat is die sleutelaspekte of kernvereistes wat nodig is vir ‘n gesonde atmosfeer waarin Suid-Afrika se landbousektor, binne die beperkings van die natuur, kan gedy?

Ek het in gesprekke met boere die grootste knelpunte probeer identifiseer en dra dit graag aan die Minister oor. Plek-plek sal ek ook oorgaan na die debat oor grondsake wat vanmiddag plaasvind. Eerstens, privaat grondbesit en kommersiële boerdery gebaseer op privaat inisiatief is van primêre belang. Staatsinmenging wat lei tot die kunsmatige herverdeling van landbougrond en sosialistiese landboustelsels wat soms vir politieke doeleindes misbruik word, vernietig ‘n land se selfvoorsiening in sy voedselbehoeftes.

Dan die beginsel van die vrye mark, ook ten opsigte van landbougrond. Gewillige koper, gewillige verkoper, is die enigste aanvaarbare beginsel vir verwisseling van eienaarskap van landbougrond. Indien die staat, om welke rede ookal, landbougrond wil vervreem, moet hy as gewillige koper met ander kompeteer. Ook ten opsigte van landbougrond geld die beginsel van niks vir niks en bietjie vir ‘n tiekie.

Die praktyk dat voordele van die verlede in terme van sagte lenings, soos die subsidies, van die markwaarde van plaaseiendom afgetrek word, moet ernstig bevraagteken word. Sodanige subsidies was vanweë ongunstige boerdery klimaatstoestande in die reël noodsaaklik om gewoon ekonomies ‘n bestaan te kon maak. Ons moet onthou daar is groot dele in die land waar dit tydens Noag se sondvloed net stofnat gereën het. Om dan nou hierdie subsidies te gebruik om die boer te penaliseer, is werklikwaar om hom in ‘n swak posisie te plaas.

Rakende die kwessie van aansprake op grond moet die emosies bedaar. Emosionele aansprake en uitsprake in die verlede maak dit nie maklik nie. Daar word te veel op grondeienaarskap gefokus as simbool van eersteklas burgerskap. Hier dink ons aan die sosialistiese slagspreuk:

Those who work the land will own the land.

Ons weet tog in vandag se kompeterende ekonomie kan dit nie so werk nie. Moenie van ons landbousektor ‘n eksperimentele speelbal maak nie. Nóg die swart gemeenskap, nóg die wit gemeenskap van Suid-Afrika kan aanspraak maak op eerste eienaarskap van grond. Dit is ‘n reg wat eintlik die Khoi en die San toekom. Die swart volke is tweede generasie eienaars vanuit die Noorde, die wittes tweede generasie eienaars vanuit die Suide. Kom ons hou dit in gedagte.

Ek wil ‘n verdere paar praktiese punte opper. Ons sal moet kyk na die staat se plig om die landbougemeenskap te beskerm teen onbillike buitelandse mededinging, waar gesubsideerde voedsel in ‘n groot mate hier op ons afgelaai word. Die staat moet sorg vir ‘n doeltreffende handels- en bemarkingsbeleid waarin sowel die produsent se belange as die verbruiker se belange met mekaar gebalanseer word. Groter begrip vanuit staatsweë vir die ingewikkelde saak van arbeidsverhoudinge in die landbou is van kardinale belang. Verder is dit die plig van die staat om omstandighede te skep waarbinne privaatondernemers maksimaal kan produseer, sonder om hulpbronne te beskadig. Dit behels ‘n paar punte: die veiligheid van die boeregemeenskap is van kardinale belang. Ons sal hierdie saak weer aanspreek onder die begrotingspos vir Veiligheid en Sekuriteit. Dit is genoeg om hier te sê plaasaanvalle is vandag die enkele grootste gevaar vir die totale ineenstorting van Suid-Afrika se voedselvoorsiening.

Die dalende fondse vir landbounavorsing moet omgekeer word, ‘n belegging in doeltreffende landbounavorsing sal dividende oplewer waarby die hele land sal baat. Nodige stappe moet gedoen word om behoorlike landboubemarking op ‘n deurlopende basis moontlik te maak. Die staat moet ook ‘n rol speel om billike produksiekoste en die ruilvoet in die landbou te verseker deur onder andere aktiewe mededinging in die verskaffing van landbouinsette te bevorder. (Translation of Afrikaans speech follows.)

[Mr C AUCAMP: Chairperson, throughout the world the agricultural sector is regarded as the best barometer of the state of a country’s economy. Hon members can ascertain for themselves that when the agricultural sector is doing well, the country also does well. This situation is even more pronounced in South Africa.

Agriculture is one of the largest providers of work and earners of foreign exchange and is of strategic importance for South Africa to meet its own needs. It is certainly no easy task to regulate, monitor and co-ordinate agriculture. What are the key aspects or core requirements of a healthy atmosphere within which South Africa’s agricultural sector can flourish, within the restrictions of nature?

In conversations with farmers I have attempted to identify the greatest causes for concern and would like to convey these to the Minister. Here and there I will also refer to the debate on land affairs which will take place this afternoon. Firstly, private landownership and commercial farming based on private initiative are of primary importance. State interference which leads to the artificial subdivision of agricultural land and socialistic agricultural systems which are sometimes misused for political purposes, prevents a country from being self-sufficient as regards its own food needs.

Then there is the free market principle, also with regard to agricultural land. Willing buyer, willing seller is the only acceptable principle for change in ownership in respect of agricultural land. If the state, for whatever reason, wants to expropriate agricultural land, it must compete as a willing buyer with others. Also with regard to agricultural land, the principle of nothing for nothing and very little for sixpence applies.

The practice that benefits from the past, in terms of soft loans, like subsidies, are deducted from the market value of farm property must be seriously questioned. As a result of climatic conditions which were unfavourable for farming, such subsidies were, in general essential simply to be able to make a living economically. We must remember that there are large sections of the country where during the Flood in Noah’s time there was just a drizzle. To now use these subsidies to penalise farmers is truly placing them in an unfavourable position.

Regarding the issue of claims to land, emotions must subside. Emotional claims and statements from the past do not make the situation easier. There is too much of a focus on landownership as a symbol of first-class citizenship. Here we can think of the socialist slogan:

Those who work the land will own the land.

Surely we know that in today’s competitive economy things cannot work like this. Do not turn our agricultural sector into an experimental toy. Neither the black community nor the white community of South Africa can claim first ownership of land. This is a right which actually belongs to the Khoi and the San. The black nations are second-generation owners from the North, the whites are second-generation owners from the South. Let us bear that in mind.

I would like to raise a few more practical points. We will have to look at the state’s duty to protect the agricultural community against unfair foreign competition, where subsidised food is to a great extent being dumped here. The state must see to it that we have an efficient trade and marketing policy in which the interests of both the producer and the consumer are balanced with one another. Greater understanding on the part - of the state of the complex issue of labour relations in agriculture is of cardinal importance. Furthermore, it is the duty of the state to create circumstances under which private entrepreneurs can produce maximally, without damaging resources. This entails a few points: the safety of the farming community is of cardinal importance. We will address this matter again under the Vote for Safety and Security. Here it is sufficient to say that today farm attacks are the single biggest threat for the total collapse of South Africa’s food provision.

The declining funding for agricultural research must be turned around, an investment in efficient agricultural research will pay dividends which will benefit the entire country. The necessary steps must be taken to make proper agricultural marketing possible on an ongoing basis. The state must also play a role to ensure fair production costs and rate of exchange in agriculture by, inter alia, promoting active competition in the provision of agricultural inputs.]

Mr N H MASITHELA: Chairperson, the Free State is a very important area indeed in the agricultural sector. You will have noticed the number of people from the Free State who participated in this debate across party- political lines.

The time for unity in action is now. I am saying this because agriculture in South Africa has for many years been highly inequitable, divided racially as regards agricultural resources. On the one hand a small elite of white farmers owned the major chunk of most farmlands. This included the best and most productive areas. Conversely, millions of black people were for many years crowded in a fraction of approximately 13% of the country’s total land area, which was unsuitable for meaningful agricultural activities.

A range of services provided by specialised public sector service institutions like the Land Bank, the Agricultural Marketing Board, and so on ÿ.ÿ.ÿ. Let me interrupt myself and ask the Minister this question: Why do we not reintroduce the Agricultural Credit Board? My view is that we still need it because most whites benefited from it.

Coming back to my text, in 1988 a total of 67 000 farmers in the white commercial sector controlled about 85,8 million hectares of land and employed 1 144 700 casual and permanent workers. This situation shows that at least 5,3 million people were employed by this sector. On the other hand, government assistance to black commercial farmers was very small or nonexistent. The rural population of 13,1 million, who resided in the homelands in 1988, were largely left to their own devices on 17,1 million hectares.

A separate system of farming in black areas was created by the Black Land Act, Act 27 of 1913, and the Native Trust and Land Act of 1936. In 1952 the government passed the Bantu Laws Amendment Act. This Act dealt with the betterment of planning in the Bantustans. As hon members would know, it identified three areas: the village, the arable land and the grazing land. But that situation did not assist black farmers, because black farmers were not allowed to join state-sponsored marketing co-operatives or farming unions.

Given the above situation, it is very clear that the ANC inherited agricultural development which was racially skewed. The ANC had a choice to live with the situation, to change the situation in favour of blacks, or to go back to the 1955 ANC policy. We chose the lastmentioned option. Why? We chose it because we are still convinced today that South Africa belongs to all of us, black and white.

Hence, the central role of agriculture in the South African economy is to reduce the inequalities by increasing income and employment opportunities for poor people, while ensuring sustainable use of the national resources. This means that the aim of the Department of Agriculture, led by the ANC, is to establish an environment within which there is an opportunity to create resources for poor farmers whilst the commercial farming sector continues to strive.

This aim was even understood by non-South Africans, but could not be understood by fellow opposition party members here. J F Kennedy said: ``A free society cannot help many who are poor and it cannot save a few who are rich.’’ Whilst here, let me also recognise what the President said in his first state of the nation address, when he emphasised the importance of the agricultural economy. He dealt with rural development and articulated his point further on 9 February 2000. This was couched very correctly by the Minister of Finance when he allocated R9 billion to integrated rural development. This situation should reflect that the ANC wants to enhance the development of our people, black and white, and to better the situation in the country.

Let me just deal, very quickly, with the concessions that were made by the Minister of Finance, when he announced the concessions on fuel and diesel. This must be looked at in a broader context, an economic context, because this concession is very critical to the Government for food security efforts, since many price reductions were made under pressure from the spiralling prices of food. The concession also contributes materially to Government efforts to settle black farmers on the land by making their entry easier and their chances much better.

Let me deal with the last issue that I would like to challenge, and on which I support the Deputy Minister, ie the issue of constitutional principles. My personal opinion is that there is a need for this National Assembly to re-examine the powers and the relevance of provincial governments, in relation to the budgeting processes in the National Assembly.

I am saying this because if we check the other provinces, the situation is not promising. Other provinces are no longer supportive of the free dipping system in our communities, precisely because they do not have money and, in my view, this touches on the international agreements, something we need to deal with in our foreign exchange with the other agricultural sectors in the country.

Therefore, it is important for this House to re-examine the roles, the functions and the relevance of the provincial governments. I know it is uncharted territory and a very sensitive matter. It has also not been discussed, at least, in ANC circles. I am introducing this debate, because I think it is important that this matter be re-examined.

The MINISTER FOR AGRICULTURE AND LAND AFFAIRS: Mr Chairperson and hon members, Mahatma Ghandi, in one of his speeches, used this phrase: ``Honest differences are often a healthy sign of progress’’.

Indeed, today’s debate reflected this statement, in the way in which members gave us some criticism on how we need to do certain things and also applauded us where we have done right, in a way indicating that as a nation we are clearly moving towards common objectives, so we can agree on what the fundamentals for our goals are.

In support of the Vote today, hon members raised critical issues. If one were to group them, these issues dealt with intergovernmental relations and their effectiveness, issues of support services, particularly research, financing, extension support, infrastructure and marketing.

Other matters that were raised revolved around trade and the competitive nature of our agricultural industry, and what needs to be done regarding those issues. Another matter dealt with was the deracialisation of the agricultural sector. Lastly, there was an the matter of agricultural finance and how we can actually improve that system to support our farmers.

I must say, the Deputy Minister dealt with the issue of intergovernmental relations in a very frank way. I told him when he passed here, that he was brutally frank because, indeed, it is true that sometimes we have shunned looking at these issues.

Clearly, there were merits on how we decided to share functions between provinces and national, but the question is: To what extent, as a national Ministry, are we able to enforce some of the agreements that are reached at the Minmec level?

The hon Kraai van Niekerk raised this question: ``Does it mean that Minmec does not work?’’ The answer is that it does work, but the issue is that if the executive council of a particular province decides on a particular priority, regardless of what the Minister for Agriculture and the MECs might have agreed on, it is always overruled.

If one looks at the budgeting of the various provinces - particularly in the past two years, when priorities and budgetary constraints were being considered in line with the line functions of other departments, especially those under social services - the departments of agriculture and land affairs in the provinces were the first departments whose budgets were cut. With all the strength I could have amassed, I would not change the decision of those provincial executives.

These are the matters that we need to deal with. What are the functions that have a national character that we might need to review, in order to strengthen the issues of agricultural development and agricultural economy? I think these are the issues that we need to deal with. It is therefore on this basis that we decided that there is room for national programmes that can be driven by the national Government in supporting the provinces, which we can finance.

There is an old saying that those who control the purse strings can dictate what needs to be done. This is virtually true. If I do not have the money to force the Western Cape government to do something, how in hell can they respond to what I am saying, no matter how good it is? [Interjections.] Undivile. [You have heard me.]

Another matter deals with support services. Hon members will recall that two years ago we indicated that there was a joint programme between the national Government and provinces that was funded by the Dutch government. That programme has been instructive to us because it has again indicated some of the weaknesses between our management of the agricultural system at the national level and in the provinces. In certain areas, provinces have been able to correctly resource and retrain their extension service in order to support the diverse client base that we have. But in other provinces they have chosen one sector or the other. These are the issues we need to revisit.

Clearly the issue of deracialisation of the sector does continue and is on our agenda. The matter of the settlement of new farmers does deal with this issue, as the hon the Chairperson of the Portfolio Committee on Agriculture, Inkosi Phathekile Holomisa, has highlighted in this debate. Of course, there is an important issue which a number of members have already dealt with. How do we manage our tariff regime as a country? How do we ensure that we protect our industry against the oversubsidisation by the Organisation of Economic Co-operation and Development countries in particular?

There is some work which the Department of Agriculture is engaged in with the Department of Trade and Industry to revisit the situation. Clearly work that we are doing within the industry on how we could assist and reposition those industries, will help give clarity on how the Department of Trade and Industry will deal with the tariffication agenda, so that we are able to have a clear understanding of where this or that sector within the agricultural industry is going.

We have all acknowledged that at this moment, given the sequencing of our deregulation process, there have been some weaknesses and fragmentation even within the industry. People have not spoken with one voice on particular matters of common interest. I want to assure the hon Van Niekerk that the work that we do with the different commodity groupings is very interesting. Indeed, if one looks at the issues around Grain South Africa and the Wool Growers’ Association in the Eastern Cape - whose objective it is to improve wool quality even in the communal areas - one finds that these have clearly dealt with the points he raised, which is the willingness of the farmers to assist.

But I think we have to admit that when one deals with the commodity groupings, one finds a better interaction, but when are deals with lobby groups - which are one’s national and sometimes provincial structures of farmers’ organisations - one is actually dealing with political issues pertaining to agriculture. We have been trying to arrive at an agreement between the lobby groups and commodity organisations that lets us agree on fundamentals, so that other matters along the way which are not vital to agricultural development should not delay us in making correct decisions where necessary. I am very happy that we have been able to find each other in the dialogue between Nafu, Agri South Africa and other commodity organisations. I will not be able to deal with other matters, but hope that the debate we have started today will serve as a continuous dialogue in the portfolio committee and the Ministry. This is so because on some of these issues we will be arguing, differing and agreeing as to what is in our common interest. We can then clearly see a movement forward to a united South Africa. [Applause.]

Debate concluded.

Business suspended at 12:11 and resumed at 14:05.

                          Afternoon sitting

          UDM LEADER'S ALLEGATIONS ABOUT SPEAKER'S CONDUCT

                             (Statement)

The SPEAKER: Order! Hon members, before resuming the business of the House, I wish to draw your attention to a serious matter.

An open letter was addressed to me yesterday. Apart from being defamatory, this letter contains very serious allegations about my conduct as the Presiding Officer of this House, which is why I am referring it to you.

The letter was written by the leader of the UDM, member of Parliament Mr Holomisa, and has been circulated to the media, the diplomatic corps and all UDM structures. It expresses a view on the investigation of the arms procurement, which is the right of every South African citizen and to which they are free to respond as they choose. The references to the arms procurement and the process belong with the investigations in Scopa and the joint investigation by three agencies. I am not referring these to the attention of the House.

However, the letter’s claims of the Speaker’s alleged conduct amount to: Dereliction of duty; intentionally obstructing the parliamentary processes by stalling the Scopa report; improper interference in the functioning of Scopa; improper interference in the executive processes; improper interference in constitutional structures such as the National Directorate of Public Prosecutions, the Public Protector and the Office of the Auditor- General; an allegation that the Speaker has rejected the Scopa report; and bias in conducting the business of the House. In as much as these charges are made against the elected Presiding Officer of the National Assembly, it is necessary that the House Examine the allegations about the manner in which the Speaker has carried out the responsibilities entrusted to her by the Constitution and this House and determine what action it wishes to take. The House may wish to consider the matter of privilege.

At any time such charges are grave, but in a fragile democracy they can have serious consequences. Unless substantiated, they attack the integrity of the House and of Parliament. It is therefore necessary that the House and you all consider and determine how the matter should be pursued, and the House will need to return to this later.

We shall now proceed with the Order Paper and notices of motion.

                          NOTICES OF MOTION

Mr J H MOMBERG: Madam Speaker, I give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the ANC:

That the House -

(1) notes that South Africa’s Deputy President, hon Jacob Zuma, signed a bilateral agreement with the government of Colombia to co-operate in the fight against drug trafficking;

(2) believes that this move demonstrates the seriousness with the Government treats substance abuse, which is a major cause of crime and gangsterism; and

(3) welcomes the bold steps taken by our Government in the fight against drug trafficking and crime in general.

Mr S E OPPERMAN: Madam Speaker, I give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move:

That the House -

(1) notes that -

   (a)  it is clear from the actions of ordinary MPs of the ANC that
       they may be in danger of allowing themselves to be demoted to
       nothing more than praise-singing jelly babies;


   (b)  with their support for the actions of their leaders during the
       Sarafina, Maduna, Tshwete, Zimbabwe, Aids, arms deal and 4x4
       debacles, they may be seen to have declared war on integrity,
       discipline, morality, basic democratic principles and God-given
       instructions for governance, namely righteousness and justice;
       and


   (c)  their shocking behaviour is symptomatic of the new ethos that
       governs the organisation; and

(2) calls on members with integrity still left on this political Titanic to abandon ship, because it is clear that no amount of spin doctoring can reverse the declaration on the stern: ``You have been weighed and found wanting.’’

Prince N E ZULU: Madam Speaker, I give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move:

That the House - (1) notes with concern the mooted closure of yet another 50 Absa branches countrywide as this will affect mostly the clients in rural and traditional areas;

(2) is appalled at job insecurity at these branches and warns management that one job lost today is too many jobs lost by South African standards; and

(3) calls on the management of Absa to break the silence on the names of the branches under threat, in order to allow time for workers to prepare their case fairly and adequately.

Mr A M MAZIYA: Madam Speaker, I give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move:

That the House -

(1) notes that the Johannesburg CBD is enjoying a revival, with business and professionals moving back into the city;

(2) recognises that this revival is the fruit of co-operation between Government and business and reflects the spirit of revival and transformation that is the hallmark of the new South Africa;

(3) commends Government, business and the people of Johannesburg for the efforts to revive Johannesburg to reflect proudly its position as a leading African city; and

(4) calls on all South Africans to emulate this example and give practical meaning to the integrated urban renewal strategy.

[Applause.]

Dr P J RABIE: Madam Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move:

That the House -

(1) notes with serious concern that the -

   (a)  total number of foreign tourists dropped in 2000 for the first
       time since 1986;


   (b)  growth in the number of overseas tourists was below the world
       average;


   (c)  decline is perturbing in the light of the special emphasis that
       is placed upon tourism to generate economic growth and to
       provide employment; and


   (d)  decline in the number of tourists can be attributed to several
       factors, but the past and present political and economic
       instability in Zimbabwe cannot be negated in this regard; and

(2) calls upon the Government to take proactive steps to reverse the untenable downward trend in the number of foreign visitors to South Africa

Ms A VAN WYK: Madam Speaker, I give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the UDM:

That the House -

(1) expresses its concern at the fact that 103 people have died in gang- related violence since the beginning of this year alone and notes that in the past 15 days eight people have been killed;

(2) specifically notes that approximately 5% of Cape Town’s population belongs to 280 gangs, and that the majority of gang members are aged between 12 and 25;

(3) notes with shock the state of affairs relating to gang violence that surfaced at approximately the same time last year and to date not much has been achieved in effectively dealing with gangs and gang violence; and

(4) calls for a more holistic approach between the national and provincial government, involving the Departments of Safety and Security, Social Development, Education, Sport and Recreation and Arts, Culture, Science and Technology, in finding a sustainable solution to a crime problem that is eroding the community of the Western Cape.

Ms N V CINDI: Madam Speaker, I give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the ANC:

That the House -

(1) notes that the South African mining industry has, since its inception, been an almost exclusively male industry that has barred women, even by legislation, from participating on equal terms;

(2) recognises that in recent years, aided by the repeal of discriminatory legislation by the ANC government, women have pioneered a role for themselves, launching the South African Women in Mining Association to advance their cause; and

(3) congratulates Sawima on the launch of their new Eastern Cape branch.

Mrs R M SOUTHGATE: Madam Speaker, I give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the ACDP:

That the House -

(1) notes with absolute disgust and dismay that a man, previously convicted in 1994 on 16 counts of sodomy involving children at a karate and boxing club, was allowed after his release in 1998 to open a soccer club and was arrested again in July last year on five charges of sodomy and assault; and

(2) calls on the Government to -

   (a)  proactively engage the departments dealing with crime to look at
       measures that will make it difficult for previously convicted
       criminals to work among children;


   (b)  protect the children, who are the most defenceless;


   (c)  make public convicted criminals' names, so that communities will
       be aware and become more vigilant in ensuring that their
       children are protected from these paedophiles;


   (d)  ensure that harsher sentences are imposed on rapists and repeat
       offenders; and


   (e)  further ensure that they serve their full sentences and are not
       given parole.

Mnr P J GROENEWALD: Mev die Speaker, ek gee kennis dat ek op die volgende sittingsdag sal voorstel:

Dat die Huis -

(1) kennis neem daarvan dat verliese in die SAPD feitlik verdubbel het van R86,6 miljoen in 1999 na R141,2 miljoen in 2000;

(2) verder kennis neem dat die regskoste van R27,8 miljoen in 1999 tot R53,7 miljoen in 2000 gestyg het;

(3) van mening is dat hierdie onaanvaarbare situasie veroorsaak is deur swak beheer en administrasie en onbekwaamheid van lede van die SAPD;

(4) van mening is dat die Minister van Veiligheid en Sekuriteit, mnr Steve Tshwete, die volle verantwoordelikheid vir die geldmorsery in die polisiediens moet aanvaar; en

(5) ‘n beroep doen op die Minister en die SAPD om te verseker dat die keuringsproses vir lede van die SAPD strenger sal wees, dat die standaarde vir opleiding verhoog moet word, en dat meriete die kwalifikasie by bevordering moet wees om sodoende ‘n meer effektiewe SAPD teweeg te bring. (Translation of Afkrikaans notice of motion follows.)

[Mr P J GROENEWALD: Madam Speaker, I give notice that on the next sitting day I shall move:

That the House -

(1) notes that losses in the SAPS have virtually doubled from R86,6 million in 1999 to R141,2 million in 2000;

(2) further notes that legal costs have risen from R27,8 million in 1999 to R53,7 million in 2000;

(3) is of the opinion that this unacceptable situation has been caused by poor management and administration and incompetence on the part of members of the SAPS;

(4) is of the opinion that the Minister of Safety and Security, Mr Steve Tshwete, must take full responsibility for the money wasted in the police service; and

(5) appeals to the Minister and the SAPS to ensure that the selection process for members of the SAPS becomes more stringent, that training standards are raised, and that merit is the qualification for promotion with a view to establishing a more effective SAPS.]

Mrs L MALONEY: Madam Speaker, I give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the ANC:

That the House -

(1) notes the initiative by the SABC to promote and support productions with local content;

(2) further notes that this initiative is in line with the black economic and skills empowerment policy of the post-apartheid ANC-led Government; and

(3) commends this action by the SABC as it is not only contributing to black economic empowerment but is also contributing to the economic development of our country.

[Applause.]

Mr E K MOORCROFT: Madam Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move:

That the House -

(1) notes -

   (a)  the shocking statistics given in a reply to my question put to
       the Minister of Water Affairs and Forestry, which reveal that in
       this year alone 95 municipalities, including those of the
       Greater Johannesburg Municipal Council and the Durban Metro, had
       ineffective sewerage systems which resulted in raw sewerage
       escaping from the sewerage works and entering public water
       resources;


   (b)  that many local authorities are cash strapped and reluctant or
       unable to commit resources to address this problem; and


   (c)  that by the department's own admission, measures taken to
       address this problem have been unsuccessful, putting the lives
       of thousands of South Africans at risk; and

(2) therefore calls on the Minister and the ANC Government to take immediate and urgent steps to address this situation before we have more outbreaks of cholera and other pollution-related diseases, and before the poorest communities again pay the price for the neglect by those in power.

Mr A M MPONTSHANE: Madam Speaker, I give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the IFP:

That the House -

(1) regrets the incident where people were injured when the school assembly haal at Sithole High School, Harding, collapsed on them;

(2) wishes the injured a speedy recovery; and

(3) calls on all schools and those concerned to ensure that buildings are regularly maintained.

Mr G G OLIPHANT: Madam Speaker, I give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the ANC:

That the House -

(1) notes that -

   (a)  a major UN Conference on the world's poorest countries is taking
       place in Brussels; and


   (b)  this conference will discuss solutions to the plight of the
       world's poorest 49 nations; and

(2) welcomes this initiative and hopes that this conference will make concrete proposals to address the plight of the people in poor countries.

Mr C M MORKEL: Madam Speaker, I give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the New NP:

That the House -

(1) notes with concern that 300 000 South African children will die of Aids in the next 10 years;

(2) takes cognisance of the fact that there will be almost 1 million orphans in this country by 2006;

(3) is extremely concerned about the fact that research has unveiled a staggering level of lack of knowledge of HIV/Aids, lack of knowledge of risk and prevention, and misconceptions about the disease and its transmission;

(4) notes with gratitude that the Western Cape education department is implementing programmes to address these issues in Western Cape schools; and

(5) urges the Minister of Education to ensure that similar steps are taken in other provinces.

Prof L M MBADI: Madam Speaker, I give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the UDM:

That the House -

(1) expresses its shock that 80% of households in the Eastern Cape go hungry, leading to chronic malnutrition, as reported in a survey by the Vitamin Information Centre, published in the South African Medical Journal;

(2) notes that the province scores lowest on the national index of deprivation, and that one in every five households experience food deprivation;

(3) expresses its dismay at the fact that although many people do qualify for child-support grants, they experience difficulty in accessing places where these applications have to be made; and

(4) calls on all national and provincial departments responsible for poverty alleviation to urgently devise appropriate interventions for the poor in the Eastern Cape.

Mrs D G NHLENGETHWA: Madam Speaker, I give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the ANC:

That the House -

(1) notes -

   (a)  with shock that 70 people were hospitalised after a roof
       collapsed at Sithole High School at Harding, KwaZulu-Natal; and


   (b)  that the injured were teachers, parents and learners who were
       discussing the improvement of their children's schooling; and

(2) commends these brave South Africans for their efforts to overcome adversity in the struggle to ensure a quality education for all learners and wishes all the injured a speedy recovery.

[Applause.]

             CONGRATULATIONS TO SWIMMER NATALIE DU TOIT

                         (Draft Resolution)

Mrs R M SOUTHGATE: Madam Speaker, I move without notice:

That the House -

(1) congratulates Natalie du Toit on her courageous comeback to swimming;

(2) notes that the fact that her leg was amputated two months ago did not deter her from pursuing her goal of competing in the Olympics;

(3) wishes her every success as she and her coach, Karoly von Toros, embark on a new strategy to develop her swimming skills in preparation for the Olympics; and

(4) assures her that her courage and determination have already made her a winner.

Go for gold!

Agreed to.

             SPORTING ACHIEVEMENTS OF FREE STATE SCHOOLS

                         (Draft Resolution)

Mr D H M GIBSON: Madam Speaker, I move without notice:

That the House -

(1) notes the remarkable sporting achievements of Free State schools recently;

(2) congratulates Kgorathuto School in Botshabelo whose soccer team has been selected to represent South Africa at an international competition in Italy;

(3) congratulates Grey College, the oldest school north of the Orange River, whose rugby team has just returned from successfully competing in the Sanix World Youth Tournament in Japan where they beat a top New Zealand school 41-3 in the final; and

(4) commends the policy of tolerance and moderation that this school has followed during its 146 years of existence, delivering divergent leaders such as President M T Steyn and Bram Fischer and international sportsmen such as Morné du Plessis and Victor Mpitsang.

Agreed to.

                    TRIBUTE TO PETER XOLILE MKATA

                         (Draft Resolution)

Mr C T FROLICK: Madam Speaker, I move without notice:

That the House -

(1) notes with shock the sudden death of one the Eastern Cape’s finest sportsmen, Peter Xolile Mkata, in the early hours of Thursday morning;

(2) further notes that Mkata was considered a rugby legend in his own right and played for Kwaru in the glory days of the Saru competition;

(3) notes that Mkata was one of the many talented black South African players who were recently awarded their Springbok colours by Sarfu in recognition of their performances during the apartheid years;

(4) further notes that Mkata was also a highly talented golfer who ranked in the top 15 of the SA seniors at the time of his death; and

(5) agrees that the Eastern Cape sporting fraternity has lost a humble gentleman of great integrity and an exceptional role model.

Agreed to.

                     TRIBUTE TO ELIAS NTLOEDIBE

                         (Draft Resolution)

Dr M S MOGOBA: Madam Speaker, I move without notice:

That the House -

(1) notes that a great veteran of the liberation struggle, Elias Ntloedibe, died in a car accident on Sunday, 13 May 2001, near Winburg in the Free State;

(2) notes that this brings to an end a great career of struggle and prolific writing in the cause of freedom and Pan Africanism; and

(3) expresses its heartfelt sympathy to Mrs Ntloedibe and the family and many compatriots in this country, throughout our region, in Africa and of the African diaspora.

Agreed to.

                         APPROPRIATION BILL

Debate on Vote No 33 - Water Affairs and Forestry:

The MINISTER OF WATER AFFAIRS AND FORESTRY: Madam Speaker, hon members, amanzi ayimpilo - water is life. It is indispensable to survival and there can be no livelihood, no growth and no economic development in its absence. In this drought-prone, water-scarce country, it is indeed our responsibility to ensure water security for all time.

It is a matter of history that the great ancient civilisations developed around water: along the Nile, Tigris-Euphrates, Ganges and Yangtse. It is important to note the lessons from this early history. Development did not just occur, but it happened by the inventiveness of human beings, the discipline of their social organisations and the efforts of generations of ordinary people.

On a recent visit to China, I saw an irrigation system that was developed around 250 BC. Its creator stated, at the time, that the project needed to serve the people for thousands of years. The system functions to this day and it has expanded to supply millions of farmers with water that enables them to contribute to China’s self-sufficiency in food. In modern times, the effective management of water resources is still the key to satisfying human needs and ensuring economic growth.

The core business of my department is to protect, conserve, develop, utilise and manage our precious water resources. The year 1994 - the year of our first democratic elections - ushered in a new stage for water resource development. We were set an additional task of ensuring that millions of our formerly ignored citizens received clean water and adequate sanitation. Our water service programme is an area where Government can be proud of a record of delivery that now sees 6,5 million people provided with clean water at an outlay of R4,4 billion.

Almost 1 million people were reached last year. While there are still approximately 7 million people in the rural areas whom we must reach, we are getting there. Let us put some human faces on what this means: Clean water has recently come to the village of Malope, will a population of 2500, which is 30 kilometres from the Flag Boshielo dam. When our President opened a village tap and served water to two elderly women, they raised their cups in happiness and cried:``Bye bye, cholera.’’

In my budget debate last year, I focused on the village and another 55 scattered villages in that area, and I pledged that what the hon Ms Lydia Ngwenya had called a white elephant because of a lack of reticulation from the expensive reservoirs into the villages would be turned into an African elephant of delivery, indlovu yaseAfrica yokuphakela.

Six of the villages now have taps, another 20 will be reached in July and the last by March next year. We cannot achieve miracles overnight. The nearby village of Phokoane is an example. It cannot easily be provided with water, except from Nebo. Evaluation is underway and I hope that next year we will manage to supply it. This is an example of the challenges we face: challenges of geography, distance and scarce resources, which, unfortunately, means that some receive their due later than others. This year, for the first time since 1997, we have over R1 billion for this programme. The increase of R240 million over last year’s budget is possible because of additional allocations from the Government’s poverty and infrastructure budgets, as well as substantial contributions from donors, including a contribution of R613 million over three years from the European Union.

We can now accelerate this programme. R1 billion enables us to reach over 1 million people with clean water, and over 100 000 households with sanitation. This is a critical contribution to the Government’s Integrated Rural Development Strategy, and is planned and implemented in close collaboration with provincial and local authorities.

The programme has employed over 400 000 people in temporary construction jobs. At this rate, within seven years virtually all our people will at last have access to clean drinking water. A shameful legacy of the past will have been wiped out, and Government’s pledge to provide all with clean water will have been achieved.

But we cannot afford to be complacent. Last year I reported that even where clean water had been provided, we found that the rural poor, like the woman I met at Lutsheko, could not afford to pay. We have addressed this problem. In an historic step, Government has instituted the policy that a basic amount of 6 000 litres of clean water per month will be provided to poor households free.

Because implementation is the responsibility of local government, wide- ranging consultations have been conducted to produce an implementation strategy and guidelines. Across the country, local councillors are being briefed and trained. Although not all municipalities will be in a position to begin implementing the policy from July, they should at least have a specific implementation plan ready by that date.

I would like to congratulate the 21 municipalities that have already announced their programme. The provision of free water will only be possible if there is effective cost recovery from those using more than the basic amount. It must be clearly understood that consumers must continue paying for their water until their local authorities inform them of the date for implementation.

The cholera outbreak in KwaZulu-Natal brought many lessons. The combination of floods and humidity activated dormant cholera bacteria, and the outbreak struck where people were using unsafe water. The provision of safe water is but one requirement to deal with the threat: two other elements must be added, ie adequate sanitation and an active programme of hygiene education.

We applaud the dedicated work of the Department of Health in aiding those stricken. Their achievement in managing over 90 000 victims thus far, and keeping the death rate under half a per cent has been internationally commended. My department gave much support. Our teams helped distribute bleach for household water treatment, delivered safe water by tankers and established temporary water containers.

We participated in the health education programme, and reallocated R35 million for the provision of water and sanitation services. We fast-tracked water projects, repaired disused boreholes and protected springs. We provided 10 000 people with safe water and 52 000 with over 6 000 ventilated, improved pit latrines.

We will spend R100 million annually for the next three years to speed up water and sanitation provision in the cholera-prone communities. During this year, 59 water and sanitation projects will be implemented in the vulnerable areas alone. Efforts will be intensified, because the current winter lull could see a resurgence next summer.

The cholera outbreak has highlighted the need to speed up the sanitation programme. It is estimated that over 3 million households, or approximately 18 million people, are without adequate sanitation. But let us get the picture clear: over 80% of rural people have some form of rudimentary toilets. What is required is an innovative strategy to help households improve these toilets, so that they are more adequate, environmentally friendly and hygienic. Simultaneously, we will mount a massive programme to provide adequate toilets for those most vulnerable to cholera, and we will spread the message of personal hygiene far and wide.

During the last financial year we spent R75 million on sanitation. Hygiene education reached 150 000 people and over 3 000 toilets were built in the rural areas. We must admit that previous efforts have not been good enough, which is why we have raised the issue in Cabinet and instituted a review. My department has been working with the Health, Local Government, Housing and Education departments. I will shortly be presenting a National Sanitation Policy to Cabinet. The Minister of Education and I will institute a joint programme to ensure that the schools have adequate water and sanitation.

I want to pledge, just as I did with the free water issue last year, that I will be giving top priority to getting an effective programme underway. Improved sanitation will also help counter river pollution, which my department’s monitoring of local government has recently highlighted. We will keep the spotlight on local government, to ensure that they discharge their responsibilities adequately.

I noted the hon Moorcroft’s motion earlier, and we must really remark that cleaning up the years of pollution of the apartheid period is literally like cleaning up the Augean stables, but we will do it. I want to refer to the contribution of the private sector by highlighting a remarkable innovation developed in our country, the roundabout playpump. Local companies have contributed funds for 23 units in the cholera-vulnerable areas. I want to repeat my challenge to corporate South Africa to provide another R1,5 million for a further 37 playpumps, so that we can match the 60 funded by the Kaiser Family Foundation. We are also very encouraged by the way the farming community, through Agri South Africa, has helped in our fight against cholera, and our appreciation goes to them.

We are often questioned about the sustainability of our water services. An audit of schemes has shown that 86% of the projects built since 1994 are functioning well. Schemes inherited from the previous dispensation show only 63% functionality. We have invited Prof David Hemson to undertake an independent review of the department’s fundings. But sustainability can only be achieved through effective local government involvement. We are moving to a position in which local councils will take responsibility for all basic services.

I am committed to working with the Minister of Finance and the Minister for Provincial and Local Government to transfer our water service schemes to local governments and to consolidate municipal infrastructure funding into a single programme. Our concern will be to ensure that the pace of delivery and the sustainability of schemes are improved.

As I said last year, it is one thing to deliver clean water, but unless we take care of our water resources we may find one day that there is just not enough to go around. The threat of such a water crisis is real for many water-stressed countries in the world. In the 1980s it was said that by the year 2030 South Africa’s water consumption would exceed supply. I am confident that because of the steps taken by the Government since 1994, South Africa will not run out of water.

Every year South Africa’s rivers receive 50 billion cubic metres, with a further six billion available from underground aquifers. This translates into 1 400 kilolitres per person per annum, making us almost a water- stressed country. Of this 56 billion cubic metres, 21 billion is utilised. Of this volume, 52% is used for agriculture and irrigation, 8% for forestry, 11% for industry, 10% for domestic use and 19% to ensure a sustainable environment.

Management of these water resources is a strategic task concerning the prosperity of our country and the security of our people. We dare not be complacent. We must have in place an effective strategy to ensure that our water needs are met, as in China, for generations to come.

Fortunately, we have the framework to achieve this, in the shape of our National Water Act. This far-sighted legislation, put in place by my predecessor, my colleague Kader Asmal, is internationally acclaimed. The challenge facing me is to implement his work. An important step will be the publication during the course of this financial year of a draft National Water Resource Strategy.

As we use a greater proportion of the available water, it becomes increasingly important to manage that use. To do so, we are in the process of registering water use. This registration will, for the first time, provide the knowledge base we need to manage our scarce water. The process will also see management charges levied on commercial users from 1 April next year.

Information from registration will be critical for the implementation of the National Water Resource Strategy. This will guide the preparation of the Catchment Management Strategies by which water resources will be regionally managed.

The proposal received from local stakeholders to establish a catchment management agency in the Inkomati Water Management Area has marked a historic moment in the implementation of the National Water Act. Further proposals are expected and the system will eventually be extended to all 19 water management areas. Approximately R400 million of the budget of R709 million for water resources will be allocated for these activities.

I will deal in greater detail with issues of water pollution control, support to emerging farmers and other matters of concurrent competence, including the role of Water Boards, when I present this budget in the National Council of Provinces, given the constraints of time.

In the past, water resource management has often been seen in terms of infrastructure development. The construction of dams and reservoirs has played a vital role in the storage and utilisation of water internationally, and in South Africa. We can be proud of the achievements of the past 100 years which have developed a remarkable system whereby we are able to transfer water from one river basin to another by means of an impressive network of dams, tunnels, canals, and pumping stations.

An amount of R310 million of the water resource budget is allocated to the construction of such schemes, and we will continue to build dams. Two dams, the Injaka near Bushbuckridge and the Maguga in Swaziland will be completed next year, and the Mohale in Lesotho the following year. The last two dams are being built with our neighbours for our mutual benefit.

Building dams has become somewhat controversial, and questions have been asked as to whether they are always necessary. Internationally, there are examples of projects which have had disastrous environmental consequences and where there has been a lack of regard, often reckless, for displaced populations. This has been highlighted by the publication of the report of the World Commission on Dams chaired by our own Prof Kader Asmal. He did it very well. [Applause].

As our society continues to grow and develop, we will have to give careful thought to how we provide the water we need. In South Africa we know that without dams to store water from one year to the next, as well as to meet our needs in all too frequent years of drought, we would face disaster. Our farmers say: ``If the floods do not get you, then the drought will.’’ For example, more than 85% of economic and social activity in this country would not be sustained in the Gauteng area, this country’s economic heartland.

The challenge of meeting the growth needs of the Cape Peninsula and Cape Town’s perennial water shortage is another relevant example. My department has completed the planning studies and environmental impact assessment needed to make a final decision on the construction of the dam at Skuifraam.

I have indicated that implementation should proceed - as my predecessor did

• as long as we are convinced that the necessary water conservation and demand-management measures have been taken by the City of Cape Town, and their funding can be raised without prejudicing our community water programme. So we will not provide funds to build a dam for a wealthy area like Cape Town if it is at the expense of the rural poor. The funding has to be carefully considered.

I have also instructed my department to review the proposed Skuifraam Dam against the World Commission on Dams. Guidelines. The results were satisfactory for us. This demonstrates that current Government policy and legal procedures for water resource development projects are generally adequate, and there can be no question of replacing these with the WCD’s guidelines as some propose - but not Chairman Asmal. Some are proposing that governments the world over must, in dereliction of their policies, apply those guidelines, and that is not for us. We will use them as guidelines.

In this context I should mention my recent visit to China, where I had an opportunity to see the colossal Three Gorges Dam under construction, as well as the huge area affected by the project. The project highlights the challenges so often faced by water managers. China has to manage the mighty floods of the Yangtze River, which have drowned over 300 000 people in the last century, the majority before the communists came to power. The river continues to imperil, in its floods, up to 100 million people in the Yangtze valley.

So China must balance this against the need to resettle 1,2 million people as a consequence of construction. The reduction in pollution through the generation of hydroelectricity, provision for water transfers to the dry northeast and improved navigation to the developing west also had to be considered. Our challenges are dwarfed by comparison, and I must state my admiration for the determination and care with which the Chinese government is promoting this vast undertaking. It is a government and a state that is people-orientated.

Last year, of a total budget of R402 million for Forestry, the largest portion - R299 million - was still allocated to the commercial forestry programme, which ran at a loss of R216 million. Unfortunately, there have been delays in the restructuring process. I therefore ask for the R75 million set aside for the transfer to be rolled over, in addition to the R336 million already allocated for this year.

Restructuring has been helped by the move from the old so-called evergreen contracts to more modern and commercial contracts for the supply of timber. Only two of the original 29 Bantustan-era contracts remain, and the new contracts enabled us not only to promote sustainability and encourage new entrants to the industry, but also to increase revenue from R46 million in 1995 to R83 million last year.

There has been good progress with the resettlement of forest dwellers in Dukuduku. After lengthy negotiations, the community agreed to be resettled on two farms nearby. Provincial housing has provided R5,7 million. The first houses should be ready within six months. A further R3,5 million to rehabilitate the forest will, through the Working for Water Programme, employ 200 of the resettled people from the forest over the next three years. After patient consultation in a most volatile situation in which we will remain vigilant, the battle to save Dukuduku has almost been won.

There continues to be great potential for forestry to be part of rural development. Agreements between large companies and communities in KwaZulu- Natal have assisted hundreds of emerging timber farmers on communal land. Similar approaches are possible in other areas, particularly in the Eastern Cape. Other potential forestry business will exploit the tourism attractions of indigenous forests throughout our country. I welcome Minister Valli Moosa’s efforts to rationalise the approach to nature conversation. I was delighted to announce the transfer of a large tract of forest into the St Lucia Wetlands Park and two forests into the Cape Peninsula National Park.

Our flagship Working for Water Programme to clear invading alien plants, which continues to provide employment to an average of 20 000 people annually, has the major benefits of biodiversity and sustainable land use as well as increased water availability. I am very appreciative of the fact that we have the yellow shirts of the Working for Water Programme here with us, and I ask everybody to give them a good round of applause. [Applause.] Thank you. Carry on the work. Phambili namanzi, phambili. [Forward with water, Forward.]

There has been some concern about this programme being a threat to all forms of exotic plants. I want to make it clear that we are not going about ruthlessly uprooting jacaranda trees from our city streets or eucalyptus trees from picnic spots. In controlled conditions such aliens are not invasive. Indeed, they are beautiful and they belong. [Interjections.]

I was fortunate to grow up in a suburb of Johannesburg where the streets were lined with those exotics. And, with the likes of Dene Smuts and Buyelwa Sonjica, we would gladly chain ourselves to the last jacaranda tree in Pretoria. We must note, however, that every single house that burnt down in the fires on the Table Mountain chain last year was surrounded by invading alien plants. We need to find the right balance between human intervention, to create a more pleasant environment, and the potentially damaging broader impact of such intervention.

The Santam/Cape Argus Ukuvuka Project - Operation Firestop - has developed into a remarkable role model, showing the capacity to work as a public- private partnership and across all three tiers of government. I would like to salute the management and workers of this programme and, in particular, to single out the tremendous work being done to prevent fires in vulnerable communities. I believe a team is here with us today and I ask hon members to put their hands together for them. [Applause.] In the process, 1 500 people have been employed in removing dangerous vegetation, in shoring up mountain slopes and in firefighting teams in the Peninsula alone.

I strongly advocate the planting of our own beautiful indigenous plants and trees. I have given my fullest support to the urban greening programme of such organisations as Trees and Food for Africa. We must ensure that our townships and our bleak rural settlements become just as green as the affluent suburbs. Our commitment to Arbor Week and Water Week and the planting of trees to heal the nation are bearing fruit, and these have become popular events on our national calendar.

In conclusion, I would like simply to say: Let this country be inhabited by a water-wise population with evergreen fingers. We will ensure that water, sanitation and forests feature high on the agenda of next year’s Earth Summit in Johannesburg.

I turn in appreciation to those who give their best efforts to make it happen: my director-general Mike Muller, the staff of the Ministry and the department, all the dedicated role-players, donors and private-sector supporters, and, last but not least, the parliamentary portfolio committee on all sides of the House, so ably chaired by the hon Buyelwa Sonjica.

Pula, nala kgotso! [Peace and prosperity!] From rain comes the greenery that creates peace. Siyabonga kakhulu enkosi. [Thank you very much.] [Applause.]

Mr G B D McINTOSH: Madam Speaker, it is important to debate this significant Vote, because it is one of the biggest Votes in the social services cluster. It is also important for our portfolio committee to have this opportunity to speak about it. We are a very happy portfolio committee. We have become a group of friends, led by an intelligent, fair- minded and creative chairlady in Ms Sonjica.

I am pleased that the Minister is going to deal with the issue of irrigation and emerging farmers in the National Council of Provinces. I certainly hope he is going to give attention to two huge water schemes which thus far have delivered very little in terms of agricultural production. They are at Ncora in the Eastern Cape and Jozini in KwaZulu- Natal.

The Minister has, as of January 2001, become the lead Minister in co- ordinating the provision of sanitation. It is a great responsibility, but a straightforward one, and the distressing and widespread outbreak of cholera has, sadly and expensively, highlighted the lack of delivery in this area. The Minister is to be congratulated on already having been given R80 million for this work and having found some money which he would have had to roll over. Over the next three years, the department is going to need similar sums of money and then only much less.

At long last the Minister has appointed the tribunal to hear disputes, in terms of the Water Act. The unfortunate element here was that this matter took three to four months longer than it should have done because of poor administration, which I had to highlight. To the Minister’s credit, when he realised the shortcomings, he did everything to expedite the appointments. Until this Government applies itself to meticulous and thorough administration, they will stumble in delivery. Administrative excellence and accountability must be non-negotiable requirements in the new South Africa.

The next major financial decision for the Departments of Water Affairs and Agriculture, is in the area of the water resources to develop the industrial hub of South Africa, Gauteng. Over the next 10 years, there are three options open to the Minister and his department. The first option is to work at water demand management or water conservation. Sensible pricing is already reducing the rate of increase in demand in the area of the Rand Water Board, from 5% per annum to 2,75% per annum.

The really worrying element is that the Rand Water Board estimates that 52% of the water that is delivered to consumers is wasted. That represents not only careless overuse, but wastage from leaks and poor maintenance. An investigation of 88 000 houses in greater Soweto found that 48% of all homes have domestic leaks, and that the average monthly loss per dwelling was 36 kilolitres - that is six times the 6 kilolitres of monthly free water that is being proposed. The total water loss in greater Soweto per day is a whopping 75 million litres.

The Gauteng Water Cycle Management have commited themselves in their declaration of intent of 13 October 1999, to achieving a water growth target of 0%. The potential savings, if they can achieve their targets, are calculated to be about R49 billion over 13 years. The Minister should help them to achieve this with financial assistance. It would be more cost- effective than new dams, certainly in the short term.

The second option, in terms of water resources, is that we - like Spain, which also has a varied rainfall pattern-need to build more dams. We are very pleased that the Minister supports that concept. The easiest and most accessible and cost-effective catchment, for Gauteng, is the Thukela Basin. The Thukela River catchment presently restrains only 17% of its run-off in the existing dams.

The benefit to the economy of KwaZulu-Natal would be substantial and even more so if the provincial government is properly involved, and KwaZulu- Natal contractors and professionals are utilised. The feasibilities are far advanced and the people of KwaZulu-Natal and I look forward to the Minister bringing a White Paper to this Parliament, in 2001, for our consideration and approval. Using Thukela water will also take pressure off the Orange River and even augment it where the Vaal flows into the Orange.

The third option in water resources is to develop Phase 2 of the Lesotho Highlands Water Project. Despite the outstanding quality of its water and the low evaporation rates in the deep reservoirs, I believe that this would be a mistake, for two reasons. The first reason is that South Africa has underutilised water resources available in KwaZulu-Natal. The second reason is that the latest studies show that the Orange River is already fully, if not excessively, utilised.

One reliable estimate is that the lower Orange River, from the Vanderkloof Dam down, already has a deficit of some 736 million cubic metres per annum. That estimate includes BKS Incorporated’s figures from a study completed in 1995, for the Water Research Commission. Remember that 13% of our water is required for environmental needs, to maintain flows in the rivers. A further complicating factor is the international one of accommodating Namibia’s right to extract its legitimate share.

The South African Rain Augmentation Plan, Sarap, which the department of Agriculture and the Weather Bureau have helped to finance, is a world leader in the technology of cloud seeding, as well as rain and hail management. Much of their research has been done at Tzaneen, which is appropriately near where the Rain Queen, Modjadji, of the Lobedu people, has the ancestral home. Armscor’s - now Denel’s - Swartklip products manufacture the secret recipe used in hygroscopic cloud-seeding flares.

The funding for this project, which is managed by Cloudquest (PTY) Limited, has steadily declined, to the extent that the company is going to close down its operations within weeks. Skilled pilots and staff, as well as two specially equipped aircraft and all the good work done over the years, will be lost to South Africa, possibly irretrievably. The Minister should step in, urgently, to investigate the situation and secure South Africa’s leading position.

The Minister has answered some of our questions on Dukuduku. We will be monitoring that situation. The Dukuduku set-up is a sorry saga. The second question on forestry that I want to ask the Minister is about unsold state assets, particularly in the Western Cape. There are extensive properties which are no longer serving a forestry purpose. How is the Minister planning to dispose of three blocks of land in Elgin and Grabouw, La Motte in the Franschoek valley, Tokai and Lourensford? I believe the Minister should now give us his answers.

Finally, I want to congratulate the Minister on appointing Prof David Hemson to do a study. The Minister always makes the naughty boys the prefects. Remember, the Labour Party in Britain kicked him out as part of the militant tendency, President Mugabe also made him persona non grata because he was such a stirrer, and he was stirring - I think, very irresponsibly - through the Rural Services Development Network. Now the Minister has made the naughty boy a prefect. Congratulations. That is what we call leadership. [Applause.]

Ms B P SONJICA: Madam Speaker, I must express my appreciation to Siyabonga for such a positive comment. I think that his timing is perfect. Today is Family Day, so I think that comment is quite appropriate for this day.

The vision of the Department of Water Affairs and Forestry on water, is the expression of a desire by the ANC Government to give equitable access of an acceptable quantity and quality of water, to all the people of South Africa. What we have seen, from 1994, is an attempt by the ANC-led Government, operating with tight budgets, to make this vision a reality.

Nobody can challenge us when we claim that we have succeeded in ensuring that, of the 14 million people that did not enjoy clean potable water, 6,5 million now have access to it. However, we need not be complacent, as the Minister has already said. We still have a long road ahead. The ANC supports this budget.

Our understanding is that the decrease of the average rate, from 4% to 1,4% over the medium term, will be compensated for by infrastructure, equitable share and other allocations which are mainly under the local government programmes. The function of water supply and provision is shared between various departments. Consequently, we benefit from the allocations of those departments.

Mhlalingaphambili, njengoko sivile ukuba uRhulumente wenze imbali ngokuthi, okokuqala kweli lizwe lethu, abantu bonke abanike isabelo samanzi acocekileyo bengawahlawuli.

Yimbali, kuba amanzi ebesabiwa ngokwebala. Bekukho amanzi asezidolophini phaye etawuni. Ibingawona manzi acocekileyo ke lawo. Kubekho amanzi asezilokishini. Lawo ke, ebephakathi noko. Ebengathanga ncam ukucoceka kuba ingamanzi abantu abantsundu. Kubekho amanzi asezilalini. Laa manzi anezabonkolo, agxojwa ziinkomo. Loo manzi ke mna xa ndiwachaza, ndithi ebemnyama thsu. Zikho ke iindawo ezisenjalo, ezisenaloo manzi anjalo.

KuMongameli Thabo Mbeki noMphathiswa uRonnie Kasrils bathi kubo abantu bokwenene, abazibonayo izinto ezintle ezenziwa nguRhulumente we-ANC ngeli xesha lenkululeko: Ukuba abantu bangakuni ngubani na onganithintayo? Banibonile phakathi kwabo bazingqina ezi zinto zintle ziguqule impilo yabo nizenza ngokwenu: Ngubani na ke onganithintayo? (Translation of Xhosa paragraphs follows.)

[Madam Speaker, we have heard that the Government made history in this country of ours when, for the first time, people were provided with clean water free.

It is history, because water was distributed according to the colour of the skin. There was water which was only meant for towns and cities. That was the cleanest water. There was water meant for township consumption. That was not so clean. And there was water meant for rural areas. That was filled with tadpoles and dirtied by cattle. I refer to it as being pitch black. There are places that are still like that, which still have that kind of water.

Hon President Thabo Mbeki and hon Minister Ronnie Kasrils, the true people who can see the good things that the ANC-led Government is doing during this time of freedom say: If the people are on your side, who can strike you? They have seen you amongst them and witnessed these good things that you do yourselves, and that have changed their lives. Who then can strike you?]

After listening to the presentation by the department on the implementation of free basic water policy, we are convinced that this objective is achievable. However, we need to ensure that it is sustainable by mobilising funds for its implementation. The main challenge facing the department is the provision of adequate sanitation for all. We are encouraged by the department’s commitment to intensify and accelerate the sanitation portion of its capital projects. However, we urge the hon the Minister to speed up all processes that will enhance speedy delivery in this area. We appreciate that this is another shared function which falls within the urban renewal and integrated rural development strategy respectively.

Kodwa ke Mphathiswa bona abantu abayazi loo nto. Abantu baseKaradokwe, abaseBhofolo, abaseSomerset East, abaseRhafu, abaseWallacedene nakwezinye iindawo, abasephantsi kwenkqubo yokusetyenziswa kwee-emele, abayazi yonke into yokuba lo umcimbi ufanelwe kukwenziwa liliphi na isebe. Inye into abayijongileyo, kukuba iSebe leMicimbi yaManzi naMahlathi malitshintshe ezo meko bakuzo. (Translation of Xhosa paragraph follows.)

[But, hon Minister, the people do not know that. People from Cradock, Fort Beaufort, Somerset East, Graaff Reinet, Wallacedene and other areas, live under conditions where they still have to use buckets to fetch water. They do not know which department is responsible for which activities. What they want is for the Department of Water Affairs and Forestry to change their living conditions.]

Perhaps the hon the Minister could comment on how far and at what stage the process of policy development is. What we request from the department and from Parliament is an opportunity to debate this policy here in the House. We believe that this matter is of national importance.

On the regional implementation programme, which dominates spending by about 64,4% of the total budget, the programme oversees water programmes and operates water schemes. It is responsible for the establishment of infrastructure for water and sanitation. We welcome the shift of responsibility from the department to municipalities for infrastructure development. This implies that municipalities, as water service authorities, shall assume their constitutional mandate of building infrastructure. Consequently, sustainability will be guaranteed. However, we have to ensure that municipalities are ready to take up those responsibilities. Capacity is a problem. Lastly, the Minister should evaluate the existing mechanisms for implementation in the regions, especially under this programme. There seems to be a need for improvement in this area.

The department has made notable progress in the area of transformation. Visits by the hon the Minister to the provinces and the establishment of transformation units in all regions, culminating in an antiracism campaign, were launched on 7 May 2001. However, we know that old habits die hard. The process needs strict monitoring, especially in institutions such as Safcol, where one still has the old conservative guard in management positions, depriving our people of access to opportunities that they desperately need.

The renaming of dams in recognition of contributions made by identified individuals in bringing about democracy is a highlight of this programme. We salute Comrade Ronnie for this. The forestry programme had many challenges, especially in the restructuring process. However, the directorate has done very well in trying to turn the situation around. We still wish to encourage it to involve the people more and to consult more with the people, so that this process is owned by the people themselves, especially since it is meant to empower them.

We have also done well in the poverty alleviation area, but there will always be room for improvement. We believe that the free basic water policy will have more impact on poverty if the Department of Water Affairs and Forestry and the Department of Agriculture could plan together in line with the integrated rural developmemt programme, to ensure that in an area where water has been provided, people are immediately assisted with skills and finances to start up agricultural projects. This will ensure food security, especially in poor provinces such as the Eastern Cape.

In conclusion, I want to make these few comments. On sanitation, we need a long-lasting solution, given the limited funds available. Secondly, we urge the nation to continue saving water, as it is a very scarce and costly commodity. We urge all municipalities which have not yet started implementing the free basic water policy, to move in that direction. The sooner we provide water services for all, the better.

We commend the hon the Minister for a good intervention on the cholera outbreak. We are confident that, as projected by the Minister, by 2008 the dark clouds of the past within this portfolio will have been removed.

Viva water, pure and clean for all, forever.

HON MEMBERS: Viva! [Applause.]

Mrs L R MBUYAZI: Madam Speaker, the Ministry of Water Affairs and Forestry has assumed great importance in the democratic South Africa. In the last seven years, water has been brought to those who were actively discriminated against. It has surely been a milestone in our new freedom. But there are still those long queues of people queuing for water.

Omama basuke bemile laphaya namabhakede nemigqomo belindele amanzi. Baye bame lize licishe lishone ilanga amanzi engatholakali. Siyayibonga imizamo eyenziwa nguNgqongqoshe kodwa kusekhona okusasele njengoba udadewethu oqeda ukukhuluma eshilo ukuthi ezindaweni ezithile abantu basawadinga amanzi. (Translation of Zulu paragraph follows.)

[Women sometimes stand with their buckets and containers, waiting for water. They sometimes wait for the whole day without getting any water. We appreciate the effort made by the hon the Minister, although there is still a lot to be done since our sisters, as the previous speakers mentioned, in many places still do not have water.]

Yet, our euphoria must not cause us to overlook several matters of great importance. Firstly, the outbreak and spread of cholera was a timely reminder that there was no time for relaxation. The outbreak of cholera, with reports in this week’s newspapers of the spillage of sewage into our streams, requires time, effort and money to be spent. We cannot take one step forward and three steps backwards.

A second matter that needs to be brought into focus under programme 4 is not only dam safety control, but the very advisability of building big dams which then silt up quite quickly. In other cases, giant dams such as the Garieb have not yet been made to contribute in sufficient measures, either to agriculture or to tourism.

The programmes set out in the Estimates of National Expenditure would gain greatly if provisions existed for interdepartmental co-operation. In this regard, the co-operation with the Department of Agriculture to bring 10 000 or so black farmers into irrigation schemes would be gratifying to us.

Sithi, njenge-IFP, kusekhona abantu esikhuluma nje abakabi nawo amanzi. Yebo, siyavuma ukuthi amapitsi afakiwe ezindaweni kodwa khona lapho abamahlathi abafana noSappi noMondi batshala amahlathi eceleni kwalezo zindawo. Lawo mahlathi adla amanzi kakhulu kulezo zindawo. Sithi-ke, kuye kuthi ngenkathi kutshalwa amahlathi ngapha kube kumbiwa amapitsi ngale bese lawo mahlathi edonsa kwawona lawo manzi abekade efakwa, agcine esephelile. Ngakho-ke ezinye izindawo zisawadinga amanzi khona esefakiwe. Siyacela kumhlonishwa uNgqongqoshe ukuthi akubhekisise lokho.

Siyavuma futhi ukuthi, yebo, amanzi akhona. Amanye angcolile afakwa ojikhi. Kodwa-ke siyezwa njengamanje ukuthi ojikhi labo sebeyasetshenziswa nasemafutheni ukuze amafutha ahlambululeke umuntu angabe esakwazi ukubona ukuthi lawo mafutha aseke asetshenziswa. Siyancenga-ke ukuthi amanzi alungiswe futhi siwathole ehlanzekile kulezo zindawo ezidinga ukuba ziwathole ngoba izifo zibhokile.

Sicela futhi ukuthi kube khona ukuqhubeka kwemisebenzi eyaqalwa ngumhlonishwa uNgqongqoshe owayephethe ngaphambilini. (Translation of Zulu paragraphs follows.)

[As the IFP we say that there are people who do not have water even now. Yes, we are in favour of the idea that wells should be installed in many places. However, companies like Sappi and Mondi have planted forests close to those areas. These trees take a great amount of water. What we are saying is that while wells are installed on one side, trees are planted on the other side, which causes the complete drainage of water in those areas. Therefore, other places still need water, although they have wells. We would like the hon the Minister to attend to this matter.

We are saying, yes, there is water. Some is unclean and people pour bleach into it before they use it. But now we are told that this bleach is used to dissolve oil so that a person cannot tell if the oil has been used or not. We asked if water could be cleaned so that people will find it clean, especially in those areas where people need water because they are affected by diseases.

We would like to see a continuation of the task that was started by the former hon Minister.]

Water is a natural resource and people must get free water supply. There must be continuity on the projects started by the previous Minister of Water Affairs, like the pumping of water from the Tugela River to Port Shepstone Dam, which is no longer there. We understand that this programme is not being funded because there are no funds.

Zonke lezo zindawo ezazisizakala ngalolo hlelo ezindaweni zamakhosi azisawatholi amanzi, njengalé koNkosi uMshazi, endaweni yaKwaNzuza nasenkosini eMahlayizeni eNkandla futhi namanye amakhosi awasawatholi amanzi. Siyacela ukuthi umhlonishwa uNgqongqoshe adonse amanzi awafake kulezo zindawo. Sicela kubhekwe kwisabiwomali sakhe ukuthi yikuphi lapho kungase kutholakale khona ukuze labo bantu basizakale.

Enye indawo esicela ukuba ibhekwe imayelana nokuthi asazi noma uNgqongqoshe uke akubuke yini ukuthi ezindaweni zasemakhaya awekho amachibi okubhukuda abizwa ngama-swimming pools. Yebo, amanzi awekho kodwa noma kunjalo kukhona kwezinye izindawo lapho umuntu ethola khona ukuthi izingane zize zihambe ziye emadolobheni ngoba ziyofuna lawo machibi okubhukuda. Kepha kulezo zindawo zakhona lapho emakhaya izingane zingakhelwa amachibi okubhukuda kunokuba zihambe ziye ezindaweni zasemadolobheni.

Nezinye izikole futhi azinawo amanzi. Umuntu uye ezwe nokuthi izingane ziphatha amanzi ngamabhodlela ngenkathi ziya ezikoleni ukuze kube khona ukusizakala. Kuye kuthi noma zithole amanzi emathangeni, uma esephela-ke lawo manzi emvula ingabe isaba khona indawo lapho zizowathola khona ngoba umfula osuke useduze kwalapho usuke ungenawo amanzi.

Okunye-ke ebesifisa ukukugcizelela ukuthi njengoba sinoPenny Heyns le KwaZulu, siyafisa ukuthi sizale abanye oPenny Heyns abazoqhamuka ezindaweni zasemakhaya nakuzo zonke izindawo zasemakhaya, hhayi KwaZulu kuphela. Nabo bayayifisa phela leyo nto njengoba besuke beyibona yenziwa kwezinye izindawo. Ngakho-ke izingane zethu ezisemadolobheni ziyafisa nazo ukuyithola leyo nto. Siyacela-ke kumhlonishwa uNgqongqoshe ukuba ayibhekisise indaba yasezikoleni.

Maqondana namahlathi emvelo, sifisa ukuba sikuncome ukuthi indawo yakithi, leyaya ebizwa nge-St Lucia Wetlands, seyenziwa yaba yindawo eyiNxiwa eliyiGugu loMhlaba. Okunye okubalulekile ngaleyo ndawo ukuthi iyawagcina amanzi. Ngakho-ke sifisa ukucela kuNgqongqoshe ukuthi angekubhekisise yini ukuthi zikhona yini ezinye izindawo ezingaba ngamaNxiwa ayiGugu loMhlaba eziqondene nezindawo ezinamanzi ezibizwa ngama-wetlands. [Kwaphela isikhathi.] [Ihlombe.] (Translation of Zulu paragraphs follows.) [All those areas of amakhosi that benefited from this project are not getting any water now. I am talking about areas like the one of inkosi Mshazi in the Nzuzaland and those of inkosi of EMhlayezeni in the Nkandla district and the those of other amakhosi. We ask the hon the Minister to bring water to these areas. We would like him to look at his budget to see if he could find money so that people will receive assistance.

We would like the hon the Minister to look at another particular area which has always been neglected when we talk about the rural situation. This is the area of swimming pools. We do not know if the hon the Minister has noticed that there are no swimming pools in the rural areas. It is true that there is a shortage of water. However, there are cases where one finds that children go to urban areas to search for swimming pools. Swimming pools could be built in the rural areas, rather than having children going to the urban areas to have a swim.

Some schools do not have water either. We hear of children who go to school with bottles of water just to help themselves when they are thirsty. Even though they sometimes get water from water tanks after it had rained, when that water is finished they cannot get water, because the streams close by do not usually have water.

Another thing that we want to emphasise is that as we have Penny Heyns’s in KwaZulu-Natal, we would like to produce more Penny Heyn’s in the rural areas, not only in KwaZulu-Natal. Children aspire to reach that stage as they used to see people who have made it in other areas. Our children in the cities also want to take part in this type of sport. We would like the hon the Minister to look closely at this issue in schools.

Regarding natural forests, we would like to commend that our area called the St Lucia Wetlands has been made a World Heritage Site. The most important thing about this area is that it can keep a lot of water. Therefore, we would like the hon the Minister to consider whether there are other areas that can be made a World Heritage Site, which are opposite the areas that have water and which have been formed by wetlands. [Time expired.] [Applause.]]

Mrs R A NDZANGA: Madam Speaker, hon Ministers, Chief Whips, … chairpersons of committees …

ÿ.ÿ.ÿ. re tlile go bua ka metsi gompieno. Setswana sa re, metsi ke ngaka ya dilo tsotlhe. Ke ngaka ya motho, kgomo, diphologolo le dimela. Kwa ntle ga metsi, ga go sepe se se ka tshelang mo lefatsheng. Re tlile go bua ka ngaka e kgolo e gompieno. (Translation of Tswana paragraph follows.)

[… today we are going to talk about water. There is a saying in Setswana that water is the medicine for everything. It is a medicine for people, cattle, animals and plants. Without water, nothing can survive in this world. Today we are going to talk about that very important resource.]

Among all the injustices that I experienced in my whole life, water and sanitation has been the worst in our country during the rule of the previous government. During the apartheid regime I witnessed dams built in black rural areas, but supplying water to white-owned farms miles away, while the black people around the dams did not benefit from the dam, for example, the Loskop Dam. The name ``Loskop’’ has to be changed. [Laughter.]

Article 25 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights of 1948, states: Everyone has the right to a standard of living adequate for the health and well-being of himself and his family.

Our rural areas are very poor. They have been neglected in the past. As a result water, sanitation and education started after the Government of National Unity, under the ANC Minister Prof A K Asmal initiated campaigns to increase efforts by rural communities to use safe and clean drinking water, sanitation, hygiene and follow health practices.

Rural communities have started water committees to help the Government as far as their needs are concerned. We have a new partnership, something that has never existed in the past. With regard to injustices in sanitation, in black urban areas we used the bucket system until the water system was introduced late in 1960. Buckets used to make a mess in urban homes. The smell of bucket toilets is unbearable, and this is yet another injustice we had to suffer as black people. Pit toilets are mostly what we use in black rural areas. Pit toilets are not hygienic, as during rainy seasons it is impossible to enter those toilets.

I recently read about a new type of toilet, the dry toilet system. According to experts, that toilet system was successfully first used in China and Taiwan! During the last three years this technology was introduced in the Eastern Cape. It is said that there is no need to dig holes and that is useful in stony areas, where it is hard to dig holes.

After depositing stools in this dry loo, the stools are then separated from urine. All that the people have to do is to pour sand or sawdust onto the latrine after each deposit of stools. After some time has elapsed the mixture of stools and sand or sawdust can be used as fertilizer.

Pusoselegae ya rona kwa Lejeleputswa e kile ya nna le monagano wa gore le bona ba dirise dintlwanaboithusetso tse kwa mafelong a bona a a jaaka magae le mafelo a baipei. Ke dumela gore fa thegenoloji e, e ka isiwa kwa baaging ba kwa magaeng, baagi ba ka leka go thusana le Puso ka go itirela dintlwanaboithusetso tsa bona. (Translation of Tswana paragraph follows.)

[Our local government on the Witwatersrand once had the idea of making use of toilet facilities in their homes which are also used in squatter camps. I believe the same technology can also be implemented in rural areas. The community can also help the Government by building their own toilet facilities.]

I think the dry toilets can create jobs for our people, if they can be trained to do so. [Applause.]

Mr S SIMMONS: Madam Speaker, hon Minister and members, it is a pleasure to participate in this debate on the Water Affairs and Forestry Vote. First and foremost, I want to express my appreciation to the hon the Minister, the director-general and his staff for the co-operation and assistance during the past year. I also want to compliment the chairperson of the portfolio committee on her leadership and the manner in which she conducted the portfolio committee meetings.

Having listened to the Minister’s address, I can mention that there is much that can be agreed with, but there is also much that we disagree with. Last year during the same Vote debate I pointed out to the hon the Minister that two independent studies done by nongovernmental organisations - which evaluated the department’s community water and sanitation projects, which have been in place since 1994-found that between 50% and 90% of the projects were in total disarray. The Rural Development Service Network also found, inter alia, that only 26% of the projects undertaken were fully operational. Thus the success rate claimed by the Minister’s former colleague and his department has been over-exaggerated and that, presently, more families than estimated by the hon the Minister are still without potable water and sanitation services.

The hon the Minister last year replied to the former hon member Gen Viljoen on his question as to why water services projects were restricted mainly to the Eastern Cape, KwaZulu-Natal and the Northern Province. I quote from Hansard, Wednesday, 14 June 2000 col 4766, as follows:

… the three provinces were identified because these are the provinces with the greatest number of people suffering from poverty. The problem is quite enormous. These three provinces have 80% of the people in this country who have not been reached by our water service, and as we all know they are the most rural provinces and the provinces with the highest population rates.

I also wish to focus the hon the Minister’s attention on paragraph 10 on page 14 of the executive summary of the Second Economic and Social Rights Report of the SA Human Rights Commission, dated September 2000, and I quote as follows:

Despite this emphasis on rural areas, the poverty and inequality report states that more than 80% of households in rural areas did not have access to piped water and sanitation, and 74% of rural African households need to fetch water on a daily basis.

This report of the SA Human Rights Commission substantiates the findings of the two nongovernmental organisations that the projects embarked on by the Minister’s predecessor and his department since 1994 are in total disarray. This differs totally with the rosy picture his Government wishes to portray.

Would the hon the Minister indicate whether he is absolutely satisfied with the measures and programmes that are in place to deliver effective and efficient water provision and sanitation services, and also spell out in detail the monitoring role that his department will play to ensure that the needy communities are provided with potable water and sanitation services?

Die mense van die Kaapse Metropool en omringende gemeenskappe is baie bekommerd, aangesien dit blyk, as gevolg van laedamvlakke, of waterbeperkings ‘n permanente instelling mag word indien genoegsame swaar reën nie oor die volgende paar jaar val nie. Ondersoeke het getoon dat die tekort aan water in die Kaapse Metropool toegeskryf kan word aan bevolkingsgroei en ekonomiese ontwikkeling. Die Nuwe NP en die DP steun die gedagte dat waterbestuur opgeknap moet word en dat waterlekkasies en die vermorsing daarvan sterk aangespreek moet word.

As ek die Minister korrek gehoor het, het hy opdrag gegee dat daar voortgegaan word met die bou van die Skuifraamdam op die voorwaardes soos deur hom genoem. Die Minister het ook aangedui dat die bou van die Skuifraamdam nie deur die departement gefinansier sal word nie. Ek wil aan die agb Minister voorhou dat die vertraging van die bou van die Skuifraamdam teenproduktief sal wees en net die armstes van armes in die Kaapse Metropool erg nadelig raak.

Die vraag aan die agb Minister is: Waarom wil die ANC-regering nie die Wes- Kaapse damprojekte finansier nie? Is dit omdat die ANC-regering meen die DA- regering in die Wes-Kaap regeer so goed dat armoede aldaar uitgewis is? Of is dit dat die ANC-regering die mense van die Wes-Kaap wil straf omdat hulle DA gestem het? Damme elders in die land word uit skenkings ontvang sowel as belastingbetalers se geld gebou. Waarom moet waterverbruikers in die Kaapse Metropool betaal vir die bou van die beoogde Skuifraamdam?

Ek het begrip dat waar damme in ander provinsies gebou word, die maatstaf van armoede ‘n belangrike rol speel. Daar is ook groot armoede in die Kaapse Metropool en die vertraging van die bou van die beoogde dam en die feit dat blykbaar geen finansiële ondersteuning van die departement ontvang sal word nie, sal blykbaar gesien word dat u teen die Kaapse Metropool diskrimineer. [Tyd verstreke.] (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows!)

[The people from the Cape Metropole and surrounding communities are very concerned, as it would seem that, as a result of low dam levels, water restrictions might become a permanent institution if enough heavy rains do not fall in the next few years. Investigations have shown that the water shortage in the Cape Metropole may be ascribed to population growth and economic development. The new NP and the DP support the idea that water management should be lightened up and that water leakages and the wasting of water should be strongly addressed.

If I heard the Minister correctly, his instruction was to go ahead with the building of the Skuifraam Dam on the conditions mentioned by him. The Minister also indicated that the building of the Skuifraam Dam will not be financed by the department. I want to impress on the hon the Minister that the delay in the building of the Skuifraam Dam will be counter-productive and that it will adversely affect the poorest of the poor in the Cape Metropole.

The question to the hon the Minister is: Why does the ANC Government not want to finance the Western Cape dam projects? Is it because the ANC Government is of the opinion that the DA government in the Western Cape is governing so well that poverty has been eradicated there? Or is it because the ANC Government wants to punish the people of the Western Cape for voting DA? Dams elsewhere in the country are built with donations received as well as taxpayers’ money. Why must water consumers in the Cape Metropole pay for the building of the proposed Skuifraam Dam?

I understand that where dams are being built in other provinces the criterion of poverty plays an important role. There is also great poverty in the Cape Metropole and the delay in the building of the envisaged dam and the fact that apparently no financial support will be received from the department, will probably be seen as discrimination against the Cape Metropole. [Time expired.]]

Mnu M M MASALA: Mhlalingaphambili, abaPhathiswa bonke abalapha namalungu abekekileyo, ndiva into embi kuba ugxa wam lo usuka apha kule ndawo andimvanga ukuba uthethe wathini na, kodwa ndiyaqonda ukuba imbi le nto ayithethileyo, ayilunganga. Ndiza kuyiyeka, ndiyiyekele abo bayivileyo. Undidanisile noko. Ngumhlobo wam lo.

Ndiza kuthetha ngamahlathi kule ngxoxo. (Translation of Xhosa paragraphs follows.)

[Mr M M MASALA: Madam Speaker, hon Ministers and members, I feel very bad because I did not understand what my colleague who was here just now was talking about, but I think what he talked about was not nice, it was bad. I will not dwell on it, I will leave it to those who heard it. I am very disappointed in him though. He is my friend.

I am only going to talk about forestry in this debate.]

It is ANC policy that to achieve sustainable development, state assets need to be restructured so as to conform with the material conditions of the day. On 9 February in this House the President had this to say, and I quote: ``Gradually, step by step, our country proceeds further away from its painful past.’’ Apartheid forestry is being transformed as I am speaking into a new forestry industry of the present day, an industry that accommodates all the people of this country. Large portions of commercial forests have been transferred to Safcol and other private companies, thanks to the ANC.

The ANC-led administration is ready to report excellent progress on the black empowerment aspects of the restructuring of state plantations. To cite just one example, with the help of the provincial government of the Eastern Cape, a total of 164 communities have taken shares in the company which will be known as Singisi Forest Producers. The communities are organised into four community trusts, each with trustees elected from the community itself. This has involved extensive consultation, in which the Department of Land Affairs and the regional land claims commissioners have also participated. In addition to these, successful land claimants will also receive an annual rental on the land.

In KwaZulu-Natal the Khulanathi Group, composed of amakhosi trusts and a number of black timber-growers, is another example of black empowerment. We expect to see the transfer of some 65 000 hectares of Department of Water Affairs and Forestry Land to Safcol and to private companies on 1 July. Problems have, however, confronted, and are still confronting the department, particularly around the transfer of staff from the Department of Water Affairs and Forestry to Safcol. The roll-over, amounting to something like R97 million during the 1999-2000 and 2000-2001 financial years, was occasioned by the problem of long drawn-out, often painful, negotiations. These involved a large number of voluntary severance packages as well as the transfer of staff to private companies.

Mandilibulele isebe ngomsebenzi omhle eliwenzileyo ukuza kuthi ga ngoku. Uhlenga-hlengiso lwamahlathi olubangwe yilahleko efake uRhulumente wethu ematyaleni amakhulu aluyondlwana iyanetha.

Kumphathiswa weli Sebe, uQabane uRonnie Kasrils, nomkhosi wakhe ndithi: Enkosi. Ndithi enkosi kuba kunyaka ophelileyo siye savakalisa ukuba abantu bayakhala bathi isebe alifikeleli kubo, qho babhaqa sekophulwe. Kulo unyaka siyeva ngeempukane eziluhlaza sibona nangokuhla kwezikhalazo ukuba ngokwenene bayaya ebantwini. Ngxatsho ke! Ze benze njalo bangabi sajika.

Amahlathi kaloku alilifa kuthi. Wona nomhlaba akhula kuwo abubomi kanye kuthi. Izithethe namasiko ethu, iziduko nezikhahlelo zethu, amaqwili namayeza, izilo nezilwanyana zethu, zonke ezi zinto zithetha ukuba abantu namahlathi yintlaka nexolo. Ndibhekisa kuBawo uKhumalo.

Ndiyavuya ke kuba isebe lam liyayivuma le nyaniso; liyayamkela. Nditsho kuba umama wethu, intombazana encinane apha uNksz Lael Bethlehem nomkhosi wakhe, banenkqubo phaya abathi yinkqubo yamahlathi emveli, ``indigenous forests’’. Injongo ephambili yale nkqubo kukukhusela nokugcina amahlathi ethu ephilile, ezalisekisa zonke eziya zinto ayefudula ezizalisekisa ngaphambili.

Masiyixhase ke mawethu le nkqubo, kuba uRhulumente wethu ngoku usedabini lokulwa nendlala. Le nkqubo masiyinxulumanise neenkqubo zokulwa nendlala kwiilali neelokishi zethu. Masibafundise ukutyala imithi nokuvelisa izithole abantu, mhlawumbi kungavela nto apho. Mabayazi abantu imithi engagawulwayo emahlathini nasemadlelweni ethu. Ngokwale nkqubo, masibafundise ukusetyenziswa kwezembe abantu. Mandiyiphinde loo nto. Masibafundise ukusetyenziswa kwezembe abantu, kuba xa lingasetyenziswa ngendlela efanelekileyo liyityhefu, liyawabulala amadlelo ethu namahlathi.

Masiligcine liluhlaza yonke imihla ilizwe loobawo mkhulu. [Kwaqhwatywa.] (Translation of Xhosa paragraphs follows.)

[Let me thank the Department for the good work done up to now. The restructuring of forestry that was caused by the loss the Government suffered with a huge debt is not a simple matter.

To the hon Minister of this Department, Comrade Ronnie Kasrils, and his staff I say: Thank you. I say thank you because last year we conveyed people’s complaints that the department did not reach them, every time things are done without their being consulted! This year we can see that the number of complaints is dropping gradually and that tells us that they really do reach out to the people. They should continue the good work and not change.

Forests are our heritage. The soil in which they grow is life to us. Our customs and traditions, our clans and clan praises, herbs, animals, all these things indicate the bond that exists between people and forests. I am referring this to Mr ``Khumalo’’ (Ronnie Kasrils).

I am glad because my department acknowledges this truth, they welcome it. I say this because our mother, a young lady, Ms Lael Bethlehem and her team, have a programme that they call the indigenous forests programme. The main aim of this programme is to protect and sustain our forests, so that they can continue to meet those needs that they used to meet.

Let us support this programme, because the Government is at the moment engaged in a fight against poverty. Let us link this programme with other programmes aimed at eliminating poverty in our villages in the rural areas and in our townships. Let us teach people to plant trees and produce young plants, because from that some benefits may accrue. People should know which trees they should not fell in the forests and in our grazing lands. According to this programme, we should teach people about using the axe. Let me repeat that. Let us teach people how to use the axe, because if it is not used in the appropriate way it becomes poisonous, it destroys our forests and grazing lands.

Let us keep our forefathers’ country green and beautiful every day. [Applause.]]

Mr L C MOTHIBA: Madam Speaker, hon Minister and hon members, the Vote before us represents one of the most important sectors of our society with regard to the upliftment of the poor and the previously disadvantaged people of South Africa.

Scarcity of water in South Africa and future projections of water supply mean that the management of this resource needs to receive a very high priority. In this regard, the UDM would like to urge the Minister to prioritise the implementation of outstanding provisions of the National Water Act.

In addition, current information systems for water resource assessment fall short with regard to the measuring of various parameters, which, by the department’s own admission, could adversely affect its work. In similar vein, we anxiously await the finalisation of the national water resource strategy.

As much as we acknowledge the efforts of the department, in co-operation with the Department of Health, to combat the spread of cholera, we must point out that earlier, more decisive action, would have led to the epidemic being contained much sooner. As it is, the disease continues to affect many people and reports of cases in the Eastern Cape are of great concern. Recent reports of inadequate sanitation infrastructure in Gauteng, which could lead to the outbreak of epidemics of water- borne diseases such as cholera, are of great concern to the UDM.

The UDM congratulates of the department on its efforts under Budget Programme 6 - Integrated Water Resource Management - with specific reference to the poverty relief and job creation implemented under the Working for Water programme. Integrated policy solutions such as these are, in our opinion, central to the future success of South Africa.

Programme 7 of this Vote, which deals with water services, will be central to the department’s ability to deliver on its promise of free basic services through local governments. The department will be scrutinised very closely to see whether it succeeds in making these services available on an equitable basis across the country. It is especially the estimated 5 million-plus rural people without adequate water supply that we are concerned about.

The gap between the haves and the have-nots is often the gap dividing urban and rural South Africans. The UDM would like to urge the department to address the ever widening divide between rural and urban people. The UDM urges the Minister to give serious consideration to the above issues and ensure that the budget of the department provides adequate scope for addressing the needs of the poorest of the poor. The UDM supports this Vote. [Applause.]

Rre D S MAIMANE: Mmusakgotla, motlotlegi Tona ya Lefapha la Merero ya Metsi le Dikgwa, batlotlegi le maloko a Kokoano Bosetšhaba, ntetleng go thuba metsi dikgapetla ka go akgola batlotlegi Tautona Thabo Mbeki le Tona Ronnie Kasrils ka go tlhagisa metsi a mahala go ya ka selekanyo se se rileng. Tiro e ke mangwe a maitlhomo a ANC a go potlakisa diphetogo, go ntlafatsa matshelo a batho, go nyeletsa lehuma le go boloka matshelo a batho kgatlhanong le malwetse a tshwana le kholera.

Kgotla e tla gakologelwa gore lefapha la metsi le boloditse letsholo la go lwantsha mathata a thebolo ya metsi ka go tsenya mafaratlhatlha a dipeipi, dipompo le matamo go a fitlhisa kwa bathong. Tsotlhe tse di dirafala ka ntlha ya ponelopele ya ANC.

ANC e itse puo ya Motswana fa a re, korwe ga ke je ke bapalela tsetse. Batho kwa magaeng a tshwana le boManamela, Bapong le Tlokweng ba itumeletse mafoko a Moporesidente le Tona. Ba re ba ka se tlhole ba bolawa ke tlala. Metsi a tla ba kgontsha go jwala merogo, maphutshe le maraka. Ba re hubee ga a tshwane le setlhee, mme le gole le nne kana ka tlou. [Legofi.] (Translation of Tswana paragraphs follows.)

[Mr D S MAIMANE: Madam Speaker, hon Minister of Water Affairs and Forestry, hon members of the National Assembly, allow me to say the following. I would like to congratulate the hon President Thabo Mbeki and hon Minister Ronnie Kasrils on providing free water within a very short space of time. This is one example of the ANC’s service delivery in order to bring about changes, to empower other people’s lives, to bring development and to protect people’s health against diseases like cholera.

The House should remember that the Department of Water Affairs has a project to combat the scarcity of water by laying on water pipes, water taps and dams in order to reach people. All this happens because of the vision of the ANC.

The ANC has acted in accordance with the Tswana saying to the effect that an adult does not accumulate for him or herself but saves for his or her children. People in rural areas like Manamela, Bapong and Tlokweng were happy about the news from the hon the President and the Minister. People say that they will no longer suffer from hunger. Water will enable them to plant vegetables, pumpkins and tuberous squashes. They say that half a loaf is better than no bread; may you grow as big as an elephant. [Applause.]]

A certain pessimist by the name of David Steel wrote to The Natal Witness of 18 October 2000 as follows, and I quote:

Government help is welcome and necessary, but this six kilolitre free water policy applied in rural areas is a major disaster in the making. Don’t do it, President Mbeki and Minister Kasrils, don’t do it.

I am happy that both Comrade President Thabo Mbeki and the Minister of Water Affirs and Forestry did not take heed of these views. Such pessimistic and egocentric views can be associated with the DA prior to the local government elections. It is surprising that the same DA wants to create the impression that they are the champions of free basic water. The launch of free basic water in Cape Town is a case in point. Durban, Humansdorp, Kokstad, Zeerust and others are the first to introduce free basic water, not Cape Town. [Applause.]

Right-thinking South Africans will not be fooled by the DA’s public relations exercise. People of this country know very well that the free basic water is a product and an asset of the revolutionary alliance led by the ANC. [Applause.] It is the ANC only that has a transformation agenda to remove our people from conditions in which they find themselves as a result of years of racial oppression.

We must remind our fellow South Africans on my left that when they were in government water was provided on the basis of skin pigmentation. In order to ensure sustainable and effective implementation of free basic water, the Department of Water Affairs and Forestry has developed a programme for municipalities. Local governments are responsible for the provision of water within their areas of jurisdiction in accordance with the Water Services Act of 1997. It is therefore intrinsic to create institutional capacity for municipalities so as to enable them to fulfil their mandates.

The institutional capacitation of municipalities shall take place through workshops targeting councillors and municipal managers. Various financial models are being looked into to ensure that the free basic water supply does not become a fiasco. The department sees equitable shares as constituting an important component of municipal finance and can therefore be used in this regard. Municipalities should be mobilised in this direction so as to avoid possible failure of this global idea.

The Minister has developed guidelines for the partnership between public sector institutions, the private sector and municipalities. Municipalities must take advantage of these guidelines so as to draw resources, both human and material, from public sector institutions such as water boards. In this manner they would be able to successfully implement the free basic water programme, and therefore the Minister needs to be congratulated for this great work.

The Department of Water Affairs and Forestry is working on a programme with the Development Bank of Southern Africa to create a friendly environment for municipalities to acquire soft loans so as to enable them to engage in new projects and refurbish some of the dilapidated schemes. In its budget the department has set aside funds to address the backlog, amongst other things. Hon members must remember that some of our areas still do not have access to water. The department is therefore looking into this matter. Implementable strategies have been adopted to provide infrastructure in areas where supply of clean potable water does not exist. This shall be done through meaningful interaction with municipalities for identification, prioritisation and funding of new projects.

It is important to mention that municipalities must also develop cost- recovery mechanisms so as to minimise problems that may emanate from the process of implementation. Block metres and other technological innovations should be utilised as part of cost-recovery mechanisms. Such mechanisms should be sensitive to the question of job creation. I therefore ask the department to lead this process by creating an environment for municipalities to acquire such technological equipment.

Finally, and most importantly, I would like to join the chairperson of the portfolio committee, Comrade Buyelwa Sonjica, in thanking the department for the great work it is doing. I would like to speak to them in Setswana and say this.

Nko ya kgomo mogala tshwara thata e se re go utlwa sebodu wa kgaoga. Le tiise mo tirong ya lona ya setshaba gore batho ba rona ba tswelwe mosola ke ditlhabololo tse ANC e di tlisitseng. [Legofi.] [Even in difficult times one should persevere. One should carry on with ones task of serving the nation so that the people can achieve something good through development which has been brought about by the ANC. [Applause.]]

Ms C DUDLEY: Madam Speaker, the ACDP passionately agrees that access to clean, safe water and sanitation services is essential for a healthy population, a growing economy and even survival. If fresh water supplies are contaminated through lack of sanitation, the entire country could be affected by diseases such as typhoid and cholera.

Large informal settlements are particularly susceptible to the outbreak of diseases and must be prioritised. But the ACDP is particularly concerned about schools, especially as sanitation policy is not yet clear and up till now delivery has been demand-driven. In other words relevant departments appear not to have been taking the initiative. As many as 60% of child deaths are caused by diarrhoeal diseases that are spread in the same way as cholera. The need for long-term solutions is urgent.

We need to recognise that sanitation, unlike water supply, is not a technical issue but a behavioural issue, therefore there can be no short- cuts. It is not about toilets only, but includes health and hygiene education. On a recent visit to KwaZulu-Natal, I was privileged to observe the outstanding work done by the SA Christian Aid Organisation, Dorcas, which has been operating in the very remote rural areas of KwaZulu-Natal since October 2000. Dorcas has pumped approximately half a million litres of safe water each month from rivers and dams into water tanks at villages.

There are concerns in the provinces that regional offices do not get a fair share of the budget, and the training budget in particular is a sore point. The lion’s share of the budget goes to head office, ostensibly so that the formerly disadvantaged get a fair share, but the result apparently is that nobody gets a fair share. Water projects have had a stop-go history, which makes it difficult to determine staff levels and leads to uncontrolled and wasteful spending. A smooth increase in capital expenditure would therefore be beneficial.

Finally, the Treasury’s decision not to fund the Skuifraam Dam for Cape Town is a concern. It is clear that we need the infrastructure as water shortages are a growing reality and construction should begin urgently. The ACDP will vote in favour of the budget.

Mnr J F VAN WYK: Mevrou die Speaker, agb Minister, agb lede, kamerade, ek let op dat daar ook mense wat vir die Departement van Waterwese en Bosbou werk op die galery sit. Tydens die 89ste herdenking van die ANC op 8 Januarie 2001 het president Mbeki in Kimberley gesê:

The time has come that we launch a sustained offensive to wipe out the poverty in our country and the continent. Millions of our people are still condemned to suffer from hunger, from malnutrition and its diseases. They are prey to deprivations that result in inadequate clothing, lack of access to jobs and other means by which they can assure an adequate standard of living.

Maar laat ek ook ander Suid-Afrikaners aanhaal, wat sê, Vandag gaan my kind nie meer kaalvoet skool toe nie. Nou het sy skoene en 'n warm trui.'' Of:Ek kan nou kos vir my gesin en boumateriaal vir my huis koop. Dit was nie verlede jaar moontlik nie.’’

Of soos kameraad Johannes Smit van die arm gemeenskap, Goodhouse, in die Noord-Kaap onlangs aan my gesê het, ``Vir die eerste keer in my lewe is ek ook nou ‘n kontrakteur. Ek het nooit gedink ek sal myself ‘n kontrakteur kan noem nie.’’

Hierdie woorde kom van mense wat werk in die Werk vir Water-projek en, baie belangrik, die woorde kom van vroue. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)

[Mr J F VAN WYK: Madam Speaker, hon Minister, hon members, comrades, I note that there are also people that work for the Department of Water Affairs and Forestry in the gallery. During the 89th anniversary of the ANC on 8 January 2001 President Mbeki said in Kimberley:

The time has come that we launch a sustained offensive to wipe out the poverty in our country and the continent. Millions of our people are still condemned to suffer from hunger, from malnutrition and its diseases. They are prey to deprivations that result in inadequate clothing, lack of access to jobs and other means by which they can assure an adequate standard of living.

But let me also quote some other South Africans: Today my child no longer goes to school barefoot. Now she has shoes and a warm jersey.'' Or:I can now purchase food for my family and building materials for my home. Last year this was not possible.’’

Or, as Comrade Johannes Smith from the poor community, Goodhouse, in the Northern Cape recently said to me: ``For the first time in my life I too am now a contractor. I never thought that I would be able to call myself a contractor.’’

These words come from people who work in the Working for Water programme and, very importantly, these words come from women.]

The Working for Water Programme, a flagship programme reflecting the ANC Government’s commitment to creating jobs and fighting poverty, recognises that women, the youth and the disabled are the most marginalised groups in society. In keeping with RDP principles, it employs close to 60% women, 20% youth and 2% disabled. It even has a programme with ex-offenders.

In some areas in KwaZulu-Natal the project has had a visible impact on the social fabric of a community in which, for the first time, children of workers are going to school with shoes and warm jerseys, when they previously went barefoot. Local shops have increased their turnover, and small spaza shops have opened in areas where workers live. In some project areas, hawkers gather on the workers’ payday, capitalising on the market for their wages.

The programme clears invading alien plants that have been spreading without control. These plants cause billions of rands in damage to our country. Left unchecked, the problem will double within 15 years. Invading alien plants are the single biggest threat to water security in our country. They are already using almost 7% of our annual run-off and a significant amount of our ground water.

Working for Water is one of the ANC Government’s most successful reconstruction and development programmes. [Applause.] It also addresses the greatest challenges facing South Africa, that of unemployment and poverty. It has received 25 awards - national and international - and is one of the world’s most comprehensive attacks on the problems posed by invading alien plants.

The programme has developed into a role model of interdepartmental collaboration. Its budget allocation for the 2000-01 financial year, including its partnerships, exceeds R400 million. Over the past six years it has spent an average of 95% of its annual budget. Currently, approximately 20 000 people are benefiting and developing from this poverty relief programme through training and employment.

However, even the best of programmes will have their share of problems. The Working for Water Programme is no exception. I would like to ask that greater efforts be made in the following areas of concern. The programme can point to the fact that it employs the poorest of the poor. Because of the racist past of our country, it is also estimated that 99% of the people working in the programme are black. I want to appeal to Minister Kasrils, although we have heard that much progress has been made in senior management, that he should continue to address transformation in the leadership of the programme, especially in some regional offices.

Die uitwerking van maatskaplike probleme wat met die chroniese armoede en werkloosheid verband hou op die Werk vir Water-projek kan nie onderskat word nie. Drankmisbruik wat sy oorsprong in die dopstelsel het, is ‘n ernstige probleem onder baie werkers. Dit beïnvloed beide die werkvermoë en die vermoë om voordeel te trek uit die ekonomiese voordeel wat die program bied. Dit dra ook by tot huishoudelike geweld en misdaad. Die program kan nie die probleme oplos nie, maar die geleentheid om ‘n inkomste te verdien en die gewoonte om te werk en te ontwikkel, is ten minste ‘n baie goeie begin. Die vaardigheidsopleiding en die omgewingsopvoeding kan ook help om ‘n sin vir trots en waardigheid te ontwikkel. Dit kan help dat mense hul lewenswyse sal probeer verander. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraph follows.)

[The effect of social problems relating to chronic poverty and unemployment on the Working for Water project cannot be underestimated. Alcohol abuse that has it origins in the tot system is a serious problem among many workers. It influences both the ability to work and the ability to benefit from the economic advantages that the programme offers. This also contributes to domestic violence and crime. The programme cannot solve these problems, but the opportunity to earn an income and develop the habit of working, is at least a very good start. The skills training and the environmental education can also assist in developing a sense of pride and dignity. This can assist people in making an effort to change their way of life.]

The programme is using emerging groups of rural women to make some of its protective clothing. It currently uses the services of emerging talent in providing food, transport, entertainment and other services at some of its events. However, I would like to say to the Minister that much more can be done for transformation in procurement.

Over the past six years of the programme, 32 people have died, mostly because of vehicle accidents, fires and drowning. Two of them drowned this year. I want to make the appeal that efforts be redoubled to protect the lives and wellbeing of workers. It is dangerous work, and there is clearly a need for more training, vigilance and precautionary measures.

I want to finish by congratulating the Minister on the way in which he has embraced the Working for Water Programme and provided leadership in reaching out to other partners with this vital initiative. This programme is indeed in line with the ANC’s vision of working for water for everybody forever. The ANC supports the Vote and the leadership of President Mbeki in his efforts to wipe out poverty in South Africa. [Applause.]

Mr P H K DITSHETELO: Madam Speaker, hon Minister, we all know that access to clean water, safe water and sanitation is essential for a healthy population and a growing economy. There is no doubt about that. The Constitution, in a way, guarantees this basic right for our citizens.

Water, as a limited resource, has to be preserved as it is essential for ensuring sustainable social, economic and environmental benefits. For us to achieve this, we know that forestry has to play an important role from an economic and environmental point of view. We know that the majority of our rural poor are employed in the farming industry, particularly in forestry.

As we are about to give effect to Vote 33 of the Department of Water Affairs and Forestry, it is critical to comment on expenditure of the budget for future improvement in its efficient and effective use of resources. On the expenditure side, we note that the only major programme structure change is in information services from the integrated water resources planning programme to the administration programme. We believe that this shift will have a positive impact on the budget, as the information services programme will naturally fit within the administration programme.

We also note that the Forestry budget share declined from 12,7% in 2000-01 to 6,2% in 2003-04 owing to restructuring of state forestry assets, as reported by departmental officials.

If the budget is projected to grow at an average rate of 1,4% per year, as it has over the past three years, as against 4% per year in the earlier period, it is good news indeed, but only if this does not imply that forestry activities will be affected badly as a result of budget cuts. This is because forestry plays an important role in our country in terms of the economy and the UCDP environment. The UCDP will support this Vote. [Time expired.]

Mrs M L NGWENYA: Madam Speaker,hon Minister and hon members, without water there is no life. None! No living organism can exist without water. Without water there is no food. No water, no life.

Human beings are quite unique in the animal kingdom. We have exactly the same needs as all other mammals, but, at the same time, both our needs and our abilities are far greater than any other species of mammal. We need more than water, we need a regular, reliable supply of clean water. This is the challenge facing the Department of Water Affairs and Forestry and the Minister. The delivery of a permanent supply of clean water to all our people, no matter how poor they are or where they live, is an ANC priority.

Millions of our people live in the remote rural areas in overcrowded and underdeveloped conditions. The majority of the rural people do not have an adequate supply of clean water. This is the legacy of years of apartheid neglect. Until this legacy is properly addressed, the quality of life of rural people remains poor. This is the harsh reality that our rural people are acutely aware of.

There is good news, though. The situation is changing, and changing fast. Six million people who had to walk miles to fetch water, often water that was not fit for human consumption, today have access to clean running water. We cannot overstate how much this has changed their lives. That is owing to the effort of the ANC-led Government.

I want to thank and congratulate Comrade Minister on what his department has achieved. For me, it is not just a case of statistics on paper. I have worked closely with the rural communities of my province and have joined them in their struggle for a better life. I have seen the change and I have celebrated with them.

Ke rata go leboga Mopresidente wa rena, Comrade Thabo Mbeki, Ministara wa Meetse le Dithokgwa gammogo le Departmente ya gagwe, ka seriti seo ba re filego sona, ka 26 tša Aporele, ge ba ile ba etela ga-Sekhukhune District, go tla go bula leswika le go thea letamo la rena la leina le leswa, leo le bego le bitšwa ka la Arabie Dam, lehono le bitšwa Flag Boshielo Dam! Molwela-tokologo, mogale wa bagale yoo a hwetšego dikano, lehono re mo tsositše ka go mo reela ka letamo leo le lego nageng ya gagwe ya tswalo.

Mopresidente le lefapha la gagwe, Tona gammogo le Kgoro ya gagwe ya Meetse, mopremiara wa rena comrade Ngoako Ramathlodi, le Kabinete ya gagwe, ba etetše diprotjeke tša temo tša rena, le go bula meetse ao re tshepisitšego batho ka dikgetho tša Local Government ngwageng wa go feta, gore batho ba tla hwetša meetse a mahala a dikhilolitere tše 6000 lapa le lapa ka kgwedi.

Moletlo wo o be o bulwa motseng wa Malope kgauswi le Ga-Masemola. Basadi bao elego kgale ba hlaka ba nyaka go nwa meetse gomme ba enwa meetse a ditšhila ka didibeng le ka dinokeng, ba ile ba re: Viva meetse a go hlweka viva! Lehono re re goodbye cholera ka gore mmušo wa rena wa ANC o re dirile batho.

Comrade Presidente, re go fa molaetša woo o tšwago go basadi woo o rego: O gole, o be o lekane le Ntate Mandela, e sego le tlou eupša Mandela wa rena. Mmušo wa rena o phetha ditshepišo tša wona, fela Majela-thoko a, a swerwe ke lehufa. Ba bea se, ka bošiu ba bea sela. Ka letšatši la 27 Aporele, e lego letšatši la rena le legolo la Tokologo, diketekete tša batho ba rena ba Northern Province ba ile ba kgeregela Polokwane, moo Mopresidente Thabo Mbeki a ilego a fa repoto ka botlalo, ka delivery ka kakaretšo yeo mmušo wa rena o e dirilego nageng ya rena ka bophara. Re a dumela gore re sa na le mošomo o mogolo, go kgotsofatša batho ba rena go phethiša dinyakwa tša bona, kudu dinageng tša rena tša magaeng. Gomme le bona ba magaeng, ba a dumela gore re tla kgona. Hleng re kgonne mmušo wo wa aparteite wa dikgonyana woo o re bušitšego mengwaga-ngwaga gomme re o wešitše pu?

Lena ba DA, lahlelang toulo, pele le eya ga maotwana hunyela. Le botšiše Kortbroekie, o kae lehono? o kae lehono? Go šetše leina fela, efela yena o hwile tu! Ga a sa nkga le go nkga! (Translation of Sepedi paragraphs follows!)

[I would like to thank our hon President, Comrade Thabo Mbeki, and the hon the Minister of Water Affairs and Forestry and his department, for honouring us on 26 April 2001 by visiting the Sekhukhune district during the official opening and renaming of the dam which was formerly known as Arabie Dam. From today it will be called the Flag Boshielo Dam. A freedom fighter, a hero among heroes who died with bravery - today we honour him by naming this dam after him at the place of his birth.

The President, his Ministry, the Minister of Water Affairs, our Premier, Comrade Ngoako Ramathlodi and his cabinet have visited our agricultural projects, and the official opening of the water project in terms of which we promised our people during the local government elections in 2000 that each family would be provided with 6 kilolitres of water free of charge.

The function was held at Malope near Masemola. Women who had suffered for a long time, who had collected impure water from the natural pools and rivers, said: ``Viva, purified water, viva! Today we say goodbye to cholera, because we are proud of the ANC Government for providing us with water.

Comrade President, we give you the message from women: May you grow like Comrade Mandela; do not grow like an elephant, but like Mandela. Our Government is keeping its promises, but the opposition is jealous. Today they promise this and tomorrow that. On 27 April, which is Freedom Day, our people from the Northern Province flocked to Polokwane, where our President Thabo Mbeki gave a full report about service delivery by our Government in general. We acknowledge that we still have a long way to go in meeting people’s demands in order to satisfy their needs, especially in rural areas. People from rural areas believe that we can do it. We managed to overcome the apartheid regime which has been there for many, many years, but it has failed dismally.

DA, you have failed, you may as well throw in the towel before you are thrown out. Ask Kortbroekie where he is now. Where is he today? Only his name remains, but it is over for him. He does not exist anymore.]

The good news is that the ANC Government is committed to improving the lives of all our people. The commitment of our Government is transparent. We see it in the practical approach to delivering 6 000 kl per month for basic needs. In the Northern Province, free water is delivered, and there are now meters that will cut off the free water after the amount has been delivered. The opposition says that the administration of free water is a nightmare, but here we see that it is possible, it is practical and it is happening. [Applause.]

Our job is not just to praise. We celebrate the 6 million people who now have clean water, but we are painfully aware of the 7 million who still do not enjoy this constitutional right. We are painfully aware of the plight of all rural women who still have to walk long distances to fetch water for their families, water that is polluted and contaminated.

Comrade Minister must be assured that we will walk the road with him. We will not rest until the basic right of access to clean running water is enjoyed by all citizens. [Time expired.] [Applause.]

Dr M S MOGOBA: Madam Speaker, water is directly related to health, to wellbeing and to the survival of the nation. The recent cholera outbreak underlines the fact in a tragic and vivid manner. As a nation, we should not be allowed to sleep until every household has a tap of potable water. Without crossing this threshold, we may look like a glittering, progressive country when we are, in fact, a backward, third-world country. The PAC has supported, and will continue to support, the supply of free water to all citizens. Our view is that those who do reasonably well, as shown by the amount of water they consume, should pay for all. This may sound harsh, but many people use a lot of water in a wasteful and an uncaring way. Also, in ensuring that the poor are healthy and clean, we are also protecting the rich. So, out of a sense of self-interest and patriotism, we should all be prepared to pay a levy or a tax for basic development.

The PAC supports the move by the department to name the Arabie Dam, the Flag Boshielo Dam. Flag Boshielo is a classic example of a self-made man who came from that area, who gave most of his life to the struggle for a new society and died heroically in a war of liberation. At the time most of his fellow villagers thought he was mad. The best way of communicating with simple rural folk is to use the symbol of water, a scarce commodity in the Nebo area, to express what Flag Boshielo stood for.

I hope this act can be widely applied to include other people like Elias Motsoaledi, one of the Rivonia trialists, and Mokgonane Godfrey Pitje, one of the first presidents of the ANC Youth League and an outstanding leader, jurist and educationist. Of course, there are many leaders in Sekhukhuneland in the Northern Province, and in South Africa as a whole, who deserve to be honoured.

The value of this symbolic act will be enhanced by a supply of water to the area to the north, east and west of the Arabie/Flag Boshielo Dam. I wish to repeat that the building of a large dam, using the Tubatse River, should be explored. Our view is that it has enough water to bring water to the area if a dam is built in the Hlogotlou Highlands. The rest of the low-lying area can be adequately supplied with water. I have also come across the exciting prospect of a water basin at the confluence of the Motsephiri, Manyukuru and Kutswi Rivers. At relatively small cost a dam could be built and large numbers of people in the surrounding villages could be supplied with water.

Then we have the prospect of regional development, using SADC countries. Since our portfolio committee visited the Lesotho Highlands Project, I have never stopped talking about it. In my view, this is one of the success stories of Africa. There are many problems involving this project, but the potential for development and rendering a service is great. The PAC supports this Vote. [Time expired.] [Applause.]

Mr M J PHALA: Madam Speaker, 11 years ago some of my comrades in this august House and I were away from our society because of the actions of the former regime. We came out and the problem of water still existed. When the ANC assumed power in 1994, 21 million of our people did not have equitable sanitation. We as the ANC declared war against poverty, hence we have to ensure that every person should have equitable and safe sanitation and refuse removal. It is in our interest as Government to ensure that all of our people benefit from this national resource. No one must live below the minimum level needed to survive.

Water is very important for living things. Our brothers, sisters, sons, daughters and grandchildren suffered because of the deadly disease called cholera. Our commitment as the Government of the ANC is to eradicate forever the conditions that prevail from waterborne diseases. Our commitment is to better the life of the poorest of the poor. It therefore rests upon our shoulders, as the ANC Government, to ensure that our people should lead a better life than before. Sepedi sa se gagešo se re šikiša dira le molapo, mphago wa dira ke meetse. Se se tloga se lemoša gore meetse a bohlokwa go feta dilo ka moka mo lefaseng. Go bohlokwa gore batho ba be le meetse, e sego meetse fela, eupša e be ao a hlwekilego. E sego meetse ao re bego re a nošwa Robben Island, e bile e sego ao batho ba gabo rena dinagamagaeng ba a nwago.

Se se dira gore re thibele malwetši ka gore thibela bolwetši e phala kalafo. Malwetši ao a swanago le lephera, letšhollo, le letadi, e lego yona Cholera. Re tseba gabotse gore meetse ao a tšwago dinokeng, didibeng, le megobeng ga a lokela batho ba ga borena, ka gore a tliša malwetši. Re na le kgonthe ya gore batho ba sa ithušetša ntle, gomme meetse a pula a gogola mantle ao go ya dinokeng, moo a fetšago a hlotše malwetši a go swana le letadi. ANC e re bophelo bja motho ka moka e be bjo bo kaone, e bile e be bjo bohlokwa. Re re: Viva, meetse! Viva, a better life for all! [Legofsi.] (Translation of Sepedi paragraphs follows.)

[Our Pedi saying goes: ``Put your hand where your mouth is’’. This reminds us that water is of very great significance, above all things on this earth. It is very important for people to have water, and not just any water, but it must be purified water. It must not be like water which used to be given to us for drinking on Robben Island, and it must not be like water which is used for drinking by our people in the rural areas.

This will enable us to prevent diseases, because prevention is better than cure. I refer to diseases such as leprosy, diarrhoea, and cholera. We know very well that water from rivers, deep natural pools and rivulets is not good for use by our people, because it causes diseases. We are certain that people still relieve themselves in the open air and that rainwater washes the dung into the rivers and that this ends up causing diseases like cholera. The ANC says that the people have the right to good health. That is of very great significance. We say: Viva, water! Viva, a better life for all! [Applause.]]

As South Africans, we have seen how collaboration of different departments have managed to keep the cholera death figures low. On average we can say that we are successfully controlling the figures to be as low as possible, whereas in a few years’ time we would not want to face the same problem. Empowering our communities through various programmes, such as radio adverts, the distribution of bleach and water tanks to various areas, has helped a lot to address the problem of cholera.

Our main objective is to deliver adequate sanitation for all our people. Therefore priority must be given to sanitation and clean water. This objective is achievable with a clear programme of action from the Department of Water Affairs and Forestry on how it is going to address the problem of 18 million people who are without adequate sanitation.

This is achievable because there are six more departments that should play a role to make this possible. Collectively we will succeed. We also thank the hon the Minister for showing dedication and commitment to alleviate poverty in different ways. During Water Week in March, he played a role in making awareness programmes available, especially in KwaZulu-Natal, which is the hardest-hit province.

The process of delivery for sanitation … [Time expired.] [Applause.]

Dr A I VAN NIEKERK: Madam Speaker, hon Minister and colleagues, in the limited time at my disposal I would like to make some comments on the Working for Water programme. It has laudable objectives. It seeks to improve water sustainability, provide jobs, control the spread of alien vegetation and reduce fire hazards.

All these objectives, however, should not be seen in isolation and should be governed by economic realities. This must also be evaluated according to the economic impact this programme has on other industries. I specifically want to refer to the potential threat or impact of the Working for Water programme on the deciduous fruit industry. This threat becomes a reality if the planned removal of eucalyptus trees should proceed as planned. These trees are critical to the survival of the bee-keeping industry in South Africa. The bee industry in turn is critical to the fruit producers in South Africa by virtue of the commercial pollination of the crops by bees. Thus the removal of all gum trees could result in the collapse of the bee industry in South Africa and consequently, of the deciduous fruit industry as well.

Eucalyptus makes up more than 70% of all the honey produced in South Africa. Few beekeepers will survive without gum honey, which is used to strengthen the bee colonies to do their pollination. In the Western Cape especially, the loss of gum trees would mean fewer beekeepers and fewer honeybee colonies to pollinate the fruit trees of the R4 billion per annum deciduous fruit industry. This industry creates 60 000 jobs and earns more than R3 billion on the export market.

Just as fruit production needs water, it also needs bees. If there are no bees, there will be no apples, pears or plums, there will be no fruit industry and then no jobs. This applies not only to the Western Cape, but to the whole of South Africa. Many other plants like sunflowers, groundnuts and beans, all depend on pollination by bees.

This relatively small bee industry indirectly supports the production of many billions of rands’ worth of industrial and other jobs. I therefore request the Minister not to proceed with the onslaught on the eucalyptus trees through the Working for Water programme before an in-depth impact study has been made in respect of this problem. I think it is necessary so that we could have clarity on this subject.

The other matter is the impact that this problem has in creating fire hazard problems. Generally speaking some of the actions of the Working for Water Programme function, but some do not. I visited some and they leave much to be desired. We are, generally speaking, in favour of this programme and we will support actions to benefit that. To the people on the gallery who have been working on this programme, I say thank you for all your efforts. [Applause.]

Mr E M SIGWELA: Mr Chairperson, section 27(1) of our Constitution gives the right to every South African ``to have access to sufficient food and water’’.

The National Water Act provides the Government with a legal instrument for the realisation of the rights provided by the Constitution.

In section 2, the Act states:

The purpose of this Act is to ensure that the nation’s water resources are protected, used, developed, conserved, managed and controlled in ways which take into account amongst other factors-

(a) meeting the basic human needs of present and future generations; (b) promoting equitable access to water; (c) redressing the results of past racial and gender discrimination; (d) promoting the efficient, sustainable and beneficial use of water in the public interest; (e) facilitating social and economic development ÿ.ÿ.ÿ.

The mandate given by the Act to the hon the Minister is very clear. Section 3(1) states:

As the public trustee of the nation’s water resources the national Government, acting through the Minister, must ensure that water is protected, used, developed, conserved, managed and controlled in a sustainable and equitable manner, for the benefit of all persons and in accordance with its constitutional mandate.

I have no doubt that Comrade Minister and his department are working tirelessly to fulfil this mandate.

I was with the Minister last year when he opened a water supply scheme in the Zingquthu area of Lady Frere. At that stage the scheme, which had cost about R2 million, was already supplying piped water to six villages out of the 11 it would ultimately supply. The cost of maintenance for the scheme will be very minimal. Water is captured from the source of a strong ravine, high up in the Nkonkobe or Stormberg Mountains. It runs down through pipes into relay cisterns and a network of pipes to the communities that are supplied. I am also happy that the Minister and his department have been able to transform the white elephant of the Northern Province into a delivering African elephant.

I would like to focus more on the development, conservation and management of our water resources, because in those activities there is a great potential to satisfy the purposes of the National Water Act, like promoting equitable access to water, redressing the results of past racial and gender discrimination and facilitating social and economic development.

It is a fact that our democratic Government, the ANC-led Government, has inherited a system of water resource development and management whose objective was not the equitable distribution of the benefits of the water schemes. It was aimed at supplying the water and power needs of the white landed gentry of our country and urban settlements. Even in that case with a bias towards white communities.

Very often the water that has been conserved in our dams is piped past black settlements to service white needs on the other side, as we found to be the case in March last year in Lawaaikamp near Oudtshoorn, where a water pipeline from a dam bypasses the Lawaaikamp community to service a farm across the road. Look at that! We found the same situation in Volmoed, also near Oudtshoorn. This was when we went on a provincial tour of the Portfolio Committee on Water Affairs and Forestry.

The large Midmar Dam in the KwaZulu-Natal Midland supplies water to Durban, bypassing the black settlements along its course without serving them, leaving them vulnerable to cholera. There are many other examples of this legacy of apartheid water resource development that we must eradicate, and take our people out of the quagmire of poverty and disease in which they are now trapped.

What we viewed on SABC 1 last Sunday is unsettling. Such depths of poverty as were depicted - and I can assure members that we have even worse situations - call for a major shift in the application of our budgets. We need to turn our attention in a manner that has never been the case before, to those sections of our people that have always been poorly provided with resources for life.

The largest chunk of the grimmest poverty, as portrayed by Statistics South Africa, is concentrated in the northern quadrant of the Eastern Cape, an area through which runs most of the rivers and ravines we have in South Africa, and which, together with the Northern Province and KwaZulu-Natal, lies in a climatic belt starting from Tanzania, which, in terms of CSIR research, is best suited for maize, sorghum, sugarcane and a variety of subtropical fruits and vegetables. In contrast, this is the area with the least infrastructure for the agricultural production activities of black peasants.

The budget presented gives the function concerned with the conservation and development of our water resources an all-round figure - which I will not split - of about R565,981 million. My contention is that even with this budget, despite international commitments like the Lesotho Highlands Water Project and the Komati Basin Treaty, we can concretise the ideals of clause 4 of The Freedom Charter that land shall be redivided among those who work it, and further say that the state will help the peasants with tractors, seed and dams so that they can banish poverty once and for all. [Applause.]

The MINISTER OF WATER AFFAIRS AND FORESTRY: Mr Chairperson, if you gave me the time I would respond to everybody, but I know you are not going to. I want to thank everybody for the excellent debate here, for very thoughtful inputs all round the House. It was enjoyable to listen to all hon members. I am going to deal with the most challenging points from some of the hon members, given the time, then we will see how many others I can cover.

I want to come right away to the hon Graham McIntosh’s inputs, a very pertinacious member of this House - we have crossed swords with him on numerous occasions. I must say I was delighted at his input. I think he was very positive and his criticisms were constructive. I think that all members of the opposition should take note of the way this was handled. I accept some of the criticism about the administration in the Ministry.

When I noted this I immediately realised that there had been a lapse, as he said, and then the Ministry immediately got cracking and we are very pleased that the tribunal is now being implemented. I, and I think every member of the ANC, would accept the point made, that we are in power now and the important point is to develop greater management and administrative skills.

Just quickly, on the questions of Korhaan and Jozini which the hon member raised. With Korhaan, one of five schemes is being rehabilitated in partnership with the provincial department of agriculture, and labour. Intensive projects are involved here. With Jozini, this is really a key issue which faces this country and everybody in every part of the country who dreams of having a dam in his or her own particular area. We have to be sure in advance how the water will be used, how it could be used productively and whether in fact it could be used for agricultural programmes. We had instances of projects, especially in the past, being completed and in fact being white elephants. So it does depend on the interaction between my department, the dam builders and the agricultural programme. A supportive framework must be in place for farmers and for the emerging farmers.

I would just like to turn to the seeding of clouds, concerning the rainfall issue. I read this, my predecessor had attempted to develop it, and I have come to the same conclusion as he has. We are not scrapping it. But, what we have said is that the project must have deliverables, it must start delivering measurable outputs and the beneficiaries of such a programme as this must contribute. I think the most interesting aspect of the input relates to the Gauteng area. It is very good to hear somebody from KwaZulu- Natal or the other provinces say that Gauteng is the industrial heartland and that it must be provided with water to make the industry function and so on.

We are in discussions with Rand Water concerning demand management aspects and the horrific wastage of water, which one must not put down to township dwellers as such but to the kind of apartheid-era planning and infrastructure that was put into townships, whether Khayelitsha, New Brighton or Soweto. And that is why there is a such a loss and that is why I am saying here in the Cape that there must be demand management in respect of to Khayelitsha before we proceed with the Skuifraam Dam. So we are working with Rand Water to improve efficiency. Local government is the key and I think the hon member has certainly accepted that.

But, I would like to talk about the options open to Gauteng. The hon member referred to three options: Demand management, the Lesotho Highlands and Tugela, the sweet waters of KwaZulu-Natal. This is certainly in the reckoning. I have had discussions and briefings with the full cabinet in KwaZulu-Natal, with the premier, ministers from KwaZulu-Natal and the Deputy President, and we certainly are looking at that as one of the three options.

Let me come to the bee in the bonnet. I am not talking about hon member Van Niekerk, who spoke about bees. But, really, every time the hon member Simmons speaks, it is either the voice of doom or it is the bee in the bonnet. The hon member seems to think there is a conspiracy in my department to deprive the Western Cape and other parts of this country of water. I would like to mention that in termsÿ.ÿ.ÿ. [Interjections.] He is my dear friend too … of the R4,3 billion that the Government has spent on the water services programme since 1994, it is not only the Eastern Cape, KwaZulu-Natal and the Northern Province. They have had a tremendous amount of money. The Northern Province comes out tops with over R1 billion, and KwaZulu-Natal received just under R1 billion.

In third place is the Eastern Cape with R647 million, but the North West province received R620 million, and Mpumalanga R530 million. It goes down according to population. The hon member is very interested, as one would expect, in the Northern Cape, from where he comes. The Northern Cape - it is low down - received R81 million, but it has just over 2% of the population. Is there a conspiracy? We only provided R2 million to Gauteng and R41 million to the Western Cape. This is because these are the provinces with fewer rural people, where there is greater infrastructure already in place. These are the reasons.

I would also like to state this. The hon member quotes from last year, saying that we received almost R650 million from the EU, during these three years. Prior to that we received half a billion rand. The EU, not the ANC Government, stressed in 1997 that half a billion rand was for the Northern Province and the Eastern Cape, and it itemised the fact that these were areas of great rural poverty. I spoke to the former ambassador Michael Laidler last year and told him that we have to provide some funding for KwaZulu-Natal. This was before the cholera, and I put the case to him and that is why in terms of the new funding it has been provided. Who will pay for Skuifraam? Ts it a conspiracy? Are we against the Western Cape?

The Lesotho Highlands Project provides water for Gauteng. The Government does not provide the capital for that project. The funding of the Skuifraam Dam - if I give it the go-ahead - would come from loans, which would have to be raised. And then, of course, wealthy areas like Cape Town and Johannesburg have such a revenue flow that they would then be able to pay back those loans.

Let me come to my friend with the bee in the bonnet. I want to say it was an interesting input. We have a very interesting response for the hon member Van Niekerk, who feels that the Working for Water programme is on a crusade against the beautiful eucalyptus, which is an alien tree. But in fact there are 75 species of eucalyptus. The only one which is really on the hit list is the so-called spider gum, that has to be removed in terms of the conservation of Agricultural Resources Act under the Agriculture Ministry. Six of the species out of the 75 need permits. So we certainly are for the bees, we are for the trees and we are for the fruit. [Interjections.]

I am for the birds and the bees. The only point is that they must be removed from the sensitive areas such as the wetlands, the mountain catchment areas and the nature reserves. The rest are welcome. The beekeepers - I am directing this to the hon Douglas Gibson - like all of us, have their responsibilities.

I want to thank everybody here for their input. Time does not permit more. The red signal is on here. I would like to say that we will respond to everybody else in terms of the very good points that were made. As Minister of Water Affairs and Forestry and on behalf of my department, I am very happy to have been able to present this budget speech here today and to find unanimous support. [Applause.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! I wish to say to the hon Minister that I wish I could have built a dam to save his minutes, but unfortunately I could not, so they have drifted away.

Debate concluded.

                         APPROPRIATION BILL

Debate on Vote No 28 - Land Affairs:

UNGQONGQOSHE WEZOLIMO NEZEMIHLABA: Sihlalo, malungu eNdlu yePhalamende, zivakashi zethu ezikhona lapha endaweni okuhlala kuyo umphakathi - ikakhulukazi labo bantu ababethathelwe imihlaba ngaphambilini - malungu ezinhlangano okungesizo ezikahulumeni kanye namalungu asebenzela uMnyango wezemiHlaba, ngiyathokoza-ke manje …

Ngiyathokoza-ke ukuthi manje sesisodabeni olubaluleke kakhulu impela, oluthinta imimoya futhi olushisayo ngoba phela wudaba lolu oluphathelene nezemihlaba. Siyazi ukuthi umhlaba uyinto ebaluleke kangakanani kithina njengesizwe ngoba siphila ngawo, sihlala kuwo futhi yifa esiyoze sife sinalo lingathathwanga muntu kithi.

Lolu daba lubalulekile njengoba sazi ukuthi izimpi eziningi kangaka zazilwela lona leli balazwe elibizwa ngokuthi umhlaba. Kuhle-ke kodwa sikhumbule isisho sesiZulu esithi: Into enhle imnandi ngokuphindwa. Siphinde saphinda singuMnyango wezemiHlaba kuloluhla lokubuyiselwa komhlaba. Sithi namhlanje sesenze kakhulu kunakuqala. Ngakho siyethemba ukuthi labo abahleli laphaya phezulu bayathokoza namhlanje ngalokho esesikwenzile nesisazoqhubeka futhi sikwenze ngoba kubalulekile. (Translation of Zulu paragraphs follows.)

[THE MINISTER FOR AGRICULTURE AND LAND AFFAIRS: Madam Speaker, hon members, visitors sitting in the public gallery, especially those who were evicted from their land in the past, members of NGOs and staff of the Department of Agriculture and Land Affairs, it is my pleasure that today we are discussing such an important issue. This is an issue that touches people’s spirits and it is crucial, since it deals with land. We know how important land is to us as a nation, since we make a living from it, we live on it and we also rear animals on it. It is property that, even when we die, remains ours and no one will take it from us.

This issue is important since we know that many wars were fought because of land. It is good to remember a Zulu idiom that goes: “The wedding dance is enjoyed when repeated”. We as the Department of Agriculture and Land Affairs have looked again at the list of those who should be given land. Today we are saying we have done much better than before. I hope that the people sitting over there are happy about what we have done and will continue doing, because it is important.]

The good stories should be told in order to inspire us to do even better tomorrow. In 1994 we embarked on a journey of rebuilding our country, a journey towards nation-building, a journey whose end would create a new South Africa. There was a choice as to which road to follow, in order to deal with the legacy of land dispossession in this country. We chose restitution, land reform and tenure reform. It is important to note that this is a unique experience for South Africa and possibly closer to a process which the Canadian people also followed. Did we think that it was going to be hassle-free? The answer is no.

We realise that our commitment and capacity as a nation to do the extraordinary will help us to go through these challenges. As South Africans we should be proud of what we have achieved so far. There have been challenges, but we have arrived at where we are now. The team of commissioners was led by Advocate Mgoxu, who is seated here, and the nongovernmental organisations which support communities. The claimants of this work are in the gallery. They worked in a humble way. But more importantly, to my colleagues the MECs - who are also here with us today - I would like to say thank you for the support they have given this process.

The Deputy Minister and other colleagues in Government understood the imperatives of what we needed to do in order to return land to those from whom it was taken away. It is therefore encouraging to say to hon members that we would not be here today if there were no amendments to the Restitution of hand Rights Act to allow us to do what is possible through negotiations with the various communities.

I want to thank Comrade Derek Hanekom and members of his team for the vision they had to understand that it was not only necessary to rely on the legal process to solve matters that could otherwise be solved through negotiations. Indeed, we are now reaping the fruits of what we have started.

Ngithi kuMnu Hanekom, mayelana nejubane asinikeze lona, ngiyethemba ukuthi naye ngeke adumale ngalokho okuningi kangaka esesikwenzile okukhombisa khona ukuthi lokho ayekucabange ngaleso sikhathi, impela akazange aphazame ngakho. (Translation of Zulu paragraph follows.)

[To Mr Hanekom, regarding the speed at which he enabled us to run, I want to say he will not be disappointed when he looks at the great things that we have achieved. This achievement shows that he did not make a mistake in his original thinking.]

It is also necessary for all of us to acknowledge that the process of restitution has showed the spirit of partnership and co-operation among various stakeholders, which indeed is the story we could tell generations to come. Last year when we were in this House, we indicated that we would increase our pace of delivery in the restitution of land rights.

Indeed we have done so, as we understood this to be an important component of our land-reform programme, which seeks to restore ownership rights to those who were victims of apartheid land dispossession. As we celebrate with those who have gone back to their land or received compensation, we have been encouraged to do even more, so that we can touch the lives of many who were victims. Who comes to mind are the people of Endabeni, Mpumalanga, Northern Province and many other communities, who have been affected. We want to say to them that they must not be disappointed that maybe now we have not touched their lives, we are coming. UCira neqembu lakhe kanye nesitimela sakhe abamile, basaqhubeka. [Cira, with his party and train, are continuing.]

The stories told by the old members of the communities who have endured the brutality of the apartheid forced removals and the way in which they showed humility and their willingness to forgive have affirmed our belief that we as a country are indeed on our way towards nation-building. The humility of the members of the farming community whose land has been part of the claims process and the manner in which a number of them have worked with us as Government and communities, has been a very heartening experience. It has shown us the bitter pain of apartheid. Yesterday some laughed, and today they are in pain. Today some are laughing, while others are crying. I think this is a story which is a lesson for us and many in the world that never again should such excesses be repeated. I must say to hon members that today, as we speak, about 12 150 claims have been settled, benefiting 27 685 families and 164 661 beneficiaries. All of these people can say today: Singomasitende emihlabeni yethu. Asincengile muntu. [Ihlombe.] [As landlords on our land, we do not depend on anyone.] [Applause.]]

I would like to say, in relation to the Restitution of Land Rights Act, that today we present to and table in this Parliament the report showing what many of our communities have received through the restitution process. It is also important that we acknowledge that this Government, which the majority of our people have elected into power, has brought back to many the dignity which was taken away. It has brought them back from the margins of society.

It must also be mentioned that while some of these community claims are counted in one set of statistics, we will see many other cases, for instance the Slang River, divided over larger numbers of families and households. We will continue with this trend and ensure that even next year we can give people a better assessment of where we are.

I must report to this House that the budget for restitution, which was given to us last year and amounted to R198 million, was all spent in the financial year 2000-01. We have also indicated to the Treasury that the budget that would be given this year would also be spent in full.

It is also encouraging for us to celebrate with the community of Cata in Keiskammahoek … kuQoboqobo, kwanto zophukayo [at Keiskammahoek] in the Eastern Cape. Indeed, they showed another element of our movement forward. This restitution programme reflects what was called a betterment policy by the apartheid government, which created some settlement reserves for natives in the Bantustan, areas - and these were another form of forced removals.

Therefore the Cata settlement would assist us to deal with some of these problems to an even greater degree. We agree that all is not rosy. As we review what has been achieved in last year’s budget of the department, we should also bear in mind that there have been many interest groups, and a public debate has been raging over the past months.

There have been many views, some saying that we have actually moved at a snail’s pace in land delivery, while others were saying we have done tremendously well under the circumstances. In my view, I would support the latter. However, it is also interesting to acknowledge that this debate has been useful because, firstly, they have given us a sense of where we are as a society in terms of our own understanding of the processes that we chose.

Do we have the same view of the processes and instruments that we put in place on how to deliver land to those who were dispossessed? I think that such debates should not be seen negatively, but should be encouraged to help us do even better. It is also interesting to note that the choice that we made as a country in terms of our policy for land was to acknowledge that land reform will play two important roles in our society, ie that of economic livelihood as well as dealing with issues of landlessness and security of tenure.

We have, indeed, tried to come up with various options in our product. Some of these were initiated by my predecessor, Comrade Hanekom, and we have continued to refine and add some new ones. One of the new programmes is what is commonly known as the Land and Agricultural Development Programme. I think that this is one of the programmes that was debated concerning state land, because for the first time it brought into focus the tension between the needs of those who wanted the land for farming and those who wanted it for settlement.

In my view, as we have said in the land indaba debate, it should not be seen as an ``eitheror’’ matter, but we must find a way in which we can balance various needs as presented by our communities. I must say that sometimes such a dialogue, in the way it is presented, makes us appear like people who do not want to move forward or change. I would like to use an expression by M Scott Peck, from his book, The Road Less Traveled, which goes:

What makes crises of these transition periods in the life cycle - that is, problematic and painful - is that in successfully working our way through them we must give up cherished notions and old ways of doing and looking at things.

I think this is true for all of us because we might have become accustomed to a particular way of doing things, and now we really have to change to come in line with the demands of the present. I would like to cite one example which has always been brought up in this debate. There have been some criticisms against the department in public debates that revolve around the allegation that we have abandoned the R16 000 grant that has been seen in some quarters as directly targeting the poor through settlement support, which is true. However, it is necessary to say that some people have conveniently decided to believe this lie.

When we effected a moratorium on projects which were dispersed through the R16 000 grant, we wanted to give ourselves space to carry out an analysis of whether our policy instruments effectively addressed the various land needs in our society. I think that it is correct to say that my predecessor, Comrade Hanekom, and his team also acknowledged that there was a need to review some of the projects, so that they could balance production and settlement needs.

In February 2000 we lifted the moratorium, and even indicated in March, when we gave our policy debate in this Parliament, that we would continue with such policy instruments because, indeed, in our society there are those who want land for settlement and a little bit for production, while others need farming land for production purposes. But, as I said, some have conveniently decided to ignore this simple truth.

Sometimes James Russel Lowell is very correct when he says: ``The foolish and the dead alone never change their opinion’’. But I believe that we are not the foolish and the dead, and neither are those who criticise us on this fact, because they indeed know that what they have been saying is not true. Even today, as we speak, all the programmes on redistribution for the past financial year were a result of the settlement land acquisition grant.

In this year’s budget alone, we have put aside 24,5% of our total budget for the settlement programme through the settlement land acquisition grant. It will target our vulnerable communities in areas such as Wakkerstroom, Ermelo, northern Natal and even Gauteng, which have been affected by the evictions from farms. This, I hope, will put the matter of these allegations to rest.

We are not a Government that could renege relate on its promises in assisting the poorest of the poor in our society. We also acknowledge that the poor do not need handouts, but that they need to be affirmed and assisted to help them come out of their poverty situation and do things on their own. In doing so, we have decided, as the Land Affairs department, to work with agriculture. We are going to dispose of agricultural state land, so that those who require land for farming could do so.

I would like to thank the MECs in the Eastern Cape and the officials in the department for having helped us make a start by releasing state agricultural land in the area of Port St Johns in the Eastern Cape. We will be continuing - and I must say that this is our commitment, unless certain things happen - to dispose of those 669 000 hectares of land, as we promised.

As a Ministry, we have to fulfil the commitment of this ANC-led Government to an equitable and sustainable land dispensation through the implementation of various policies. It is important to remind ourselves that the land reform programme of our country addresses the issues of both social justice in terms of redressing the imbalances of the past and asset allocation, in order to give impetus to meaningful economic development.

I have said a lot about land redistribution. It is also necessary for me to indicate that as we work in this area, certain issues emerge. I think that there is a very important issue which was raised in the earlier debate on agriculture by my chairperson, Inkosi Phatekile Holomisa, on how we need to move with speed to resolve the issue of tenure reform in rural South Africa. Clearly, this is a matter that we continuously have to deal with and we must find a better solution for land administration in that area.

Manditsho ke, Mhlalingaphambili, ukuba sikhe saneengxoxo ngalo mba neenkosi zomthonyama, sabonisana. [Madam Speaker, I must say that we have had discussions about this issue of traditional leaders.]

Sikhuluma futhi silalela nakubo ukuthi bona baye benze kanjani uma bekhuluma ngezindaba eziphathelene nomhlaba laphaya ezindaweni abahlala kuzo. Sakwazi futhi nokuthi sikhulumisane nenhlangano yamakhosi i- Contralesa emhlanganweni wawo, sibonisana ukuthi singenzenjani ukuze sibhekane naleso simo.

Sakucacisa-ke ukuthi akuyiso nje isimo esilula njengoba sazi ukuthi isimo somhlaba ngesishisisa igazi. Uma kukhona izinto ezingenziwa ngendlela ethize, kungasuka nje izimpi ezingadingekile. Siyavumelana-ke ukuthi kulo nyaka kuzofanele sibe nengqungquthela yezomhlaba yokubonisana ekutheni sizokwenzenjani ukubhekana nesimo sezindawo zamakhosi. (Translation of Zulu paragraphs follows.)

[We talked and listened to them when they told us about the things they say when they talk about land-related matters in their areas. We were also able to talk to Contralesa in their meeting, where we discussed ways of dealing with this situation.

We made it abundantly clear that it is not a minor issue, since the land issue incites people’s emotions. If things are done in an awkward way, unnecessary wars could break out. We all agreed that we should hold a conference this year on the land issue so that we could discuss ways of dealing with this issue in areas that are under the authority of traditional leaders.]

We have agreed that this year we will host a land workshop through which we will finalise our debates on what the legal instrument for communal land administration and the transfer of land to traditional communities should be. We hope that this debate will culminate in a Bill that will be passed through this Parliament so that we can put to rest this matter, which is one of those still lacking in terms of our administrative system.

In order that we could continue contributing to the broader objectives of Government, we have identified the Rural Development Programme and what we need to do. This will differ from one area to another. In one of these areas, that is the Oliver Tambo district, we will have to work with speed to resolve the ``Umkhambathi’’ land claim. We would also have to move with speed to ensure that we deal with those matters pertaining to tenure administration, so that we can allow development to occur in those areas.

Isimo sezomhlaba, nokho, sibukeka siba ngconywana manje. Lokho kwenziwa yithimba esiliqalishileyo labasebenzi abakhombisa ukuzimisela emsebenzini abawenzayo.

Ngithanda, ngalesi sikhathi, ukubonga ithimba lami elihleli lapha, ngibonge nozakwethu abakhona abahleli laphaya phezulu futhi ngibonge amalungu ekomidi kanye neNkosi uHolomisa njengomqondisi waleli komidi. Ngithi impela sisebenzisane kahle futhi sisazophinda sisebenzisane kahle. (Translation of Zulu paragraphs follows.)

[There seems to be light at the end of the tunnel regarding the land issue. This is the result of a dedicated team of employees that we employed.

At this point in time, I would like to thank my team that is sitting over there. I would also like to thank my colleagues who are also sitting over there, the committee and Inkosi Holomisa, as he was the chairperson of the committee. What I am saying is that we have worked together and we will continue to do so.]

It is also important for me to acknowledge the work parliamentarians have done, particularly on restitution, in which they have worked with us in order to find solutions to settle a number of claims. [Time expired.] [Applause.]

Adv S P HOLOMISA: Ndibaqaphele abafanele ukufumana umhlaba. [I have recognised those who are supposed to get land.]

Chairperson and hon members, restitution, redistribution and tenure reform have been such buzz words in the land reform lexicon that they are etched into the psyche of all who are interested in the project of the reversal of over three centuries of colonial dispossession of people of their land.

Just as the loss of freedom has been concomitant with a people’s loss of their land, so does restoration of such land become the defining feature of true liberation. We forget or ignore that fact at our peril, if not now, then certainly in the future.

After experiencing slow progress over a number of years owing, no doubt, to teething problems, the restitution programme is fast proving to be the one which seems to be giving us the desired results. Almost every week now we hear of the Minister and the Land Claims Commission visiting some far-flung corner of our land, bringing the good news of land delivery to our people, people who were dispossessed of their land because of apartheid.

The reasons for the acceleration in delivery on this front stem from the integration of the Land Claims Commission into the Department of Land Affairs, a situation which has resulted in greater co-operation between the personnel of these bodies, and from the departure from a legalistic judicial process to a more administrative one. The other factor appears to be co-operation, which comes from the Department of Public Works. This Department has committed itself to facilitating the speedy release of state land which forms part of restitution claims. We also look forward to the Minister for Public Works assisting owners and the commission in the resolution of the Lohatla land claim, in which the Department of Defence is involved.

This progress does not mean that there are no more problems relating to the work of the Land Claims Commission. There are still too few claims which have been settled in Mpumalanga, and we are hoping that more will be resolved within this financial year. The perennial problem of staff shortages within the commission calls for more funds to be allocated so that more field workers are employed to interact actively with the interested parties.

The land redistribution programme has now been adjusted to ensure that when land is made available for landless people, it is used for the purposes for which it is suitable. Not all people who are landless, as the Minister has indicated, need land for farming purposes. Some people need land for accommodation, others for industrial enterprises, others for businesses, and yet others for recreational purposes. The Government’s integrated development strategy facilitates the involvement of various Ministries and departments in land reform programmes by ensuring that the services obtainable within them contribute to the productive development of newly acquired land.

Le nto ithetha ukuba xa kufanelekile, iSebe lezeZindlu liya kuncedisa ngokwakha izindlu, eleMicimbi yeNdalo esiNgqongileyo noKhenketho liya kufaka igxalaba, eleMicimbi yaManzi naMahlathi liya kusondeza amanzi, njalo njalo.

Intsebenziswano phakathi kwecandelo lolimo nelemihlaba kwiSebe lezolimo neMicimbi yeMihlaba sele iqalile kule nkqubo yokwabiwa kwemihlaba ngokutsha. Umhlaba wolimo osezandleni zikaRhulumente sele kuqalisiwe ukunikezelwa ngawo ebantwini abangamafama asakhulayo. Bekufanelekile kakade ukuba kuqalwe ngawo lo mhlaba.

Masingajongi kuwo wodwa noko, kuba awungesilingani uwodwa. Abanini-mhlaba abanomhlaba omninzi mabeze ngaphambili bancedise uRhulumente kweli phulo lakhe lokuphelisa indlala nokubuyisela isidima somntu ontsundu endaweni yaso.

Amaxabiso eefama ezithengiswayo makanganyuswa ngendlela ephoxisayo. Zininzi iingxaki ezifuna iimali zikaRhulumente. Makubonelelwane mawethu, ukuze sihlalisane ngoxolo kweli lizwe.

UMphathiswa wezoLimo neMicimbi yeMihlaba uphethe umcimbi womiwo nobunini- mhlaba kwiindawo eziphethwe ziinkosi. Indlela awuphethe ngayo lo mcimbi ihambisana kanye nombono kaMongameli Thabo Mbeki, wokuba makusetyenziswane neenkosi zeli lizwe xa kuphethwe umsebenzi wokuphuhlisa impilo yabantu basezilalini.

Xa ephethe umbandela womiwo-mhlaba ezilalini, umphathiswa wenza kakuhle xa esithi ufuna ukuqinisekisa ukuba utyalo-mali luyenzeka ngaphandle kokubeka esichengeni sothinjo imihlaba yabantu bakuthi. (Translation of Xhosa paragraphs follows.)

[This means that if it becomes necessary, the Department of Housing will assist by building houses, the Department of Environmental Affairs and Tourism will give a hand, the Department of Water Affairs and Forestry will bring water closer, and so on.

Co-operation between the agricultural and land sectors within the Department of Agriculture and Land Affairs has already started in the land restitution process. The process of giving agricultural land that is in the hands of the Government back to emerging farmers has already started. It was necessary for the process to begin with the focus on this land.

We should not look at this land only, because it may not be enough for all of us. Landowners who have vast tracts of land should come forward and assist the Government in its campaign to alleviate poverty and restore the dignity of black people.

Selling prices of farms should not be raised unreasonably. Government has many problems that require funds. Let us be fair to one another, so that we could live in peace in this country. The hon Minister of Agriculture and Land Affairs is dealing with the issue of land tenure in places that are under traditional leaders. She is dealing with this issue in exactly the way the hon President Thabo Mbeki envisaged, which is that traditional leaders should be included in the process of the development of the people in rural areas.

When dealing with the issue of land tenure in rural areas, the hon Minister is on the right track when she says that she wants to ensure that investment takes place without risking the attachment of their land.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMMITTEES: Order, hon Mrs Olckers! Thank you. You may proceed, Adv Holomisa. [Laughter.]

Xa ubani efunda amaphepha-ndaba, uya kufika yonke imihla kukho izibhengezo ezingemizi ethengiswayo yabantu basedolophini ngenxa yokungakwazi kwabo ukuhlawula amatyala ababemise ngezindlu zabo kuwo. Siyi-ANC siyayithakazelela into yokuba kube kuza kubakho ingqungquthela kazwelonke eya kuthi inike bonke abantu abachaphazelekayo ithuba lokuphalaza izimvo zabo ngalo mba.

Abantu basezilalini abazizo izinyanya, bayakwazi ukuzithethela ngokwabo. Maze kuncedwe ke ngoko kukhokeliswe bona, ze kulandele ke amakhumsha angasahlaliyo ezilalini. (Translation of Xhosa paragraph follows.)

[When one reads newspapers, one finds every day that there are advertisements retaining to houses of people who live in the urban areas that are up for sale in execution because they could not afford to pay their mortgage bonds. We in the ANC are happy that there is going to be a national conference that will give all the stakeholders an opportunity to express their views on this issue.

People from rural areas are not ancestors, they can speak for themselves. I would, therefore, ask that they be the first to be listened to before the sophisticated that no longer live in rural areas.]

In the course of a tour of some of the provinces by the portfolio committee in the past year, we came to realise that many of the problems besetting human relations in our farming communities relate to a lack of understanding by all concerned of the Government’s new policies and laws. While some expected more than the Government could offer under the new constitutional order, others were suspicious of the Government’s motives, believing that we were out to get them.

As we all know, this Government is committed to abiding by the terms and spirit of the Constitution as it embarks on the programme of ensuring a better life for all. Labour tenants and farmworkers should not be victimised merely because they do not own land of their own. They are human beings who cannot be thrown out onto the street when they have outlived their usefulness to the landowner. It is our hope that the public awareness campaign conducted by the Department of Land Affairs on these laws has resulted in the reduction of incidents of hostility between farm owners and farmworkers, and that there will, henceforth, be greater co-operation between the entire farming community and Government.

We look to the divisions on mapping and surveys and to the deeds registry to continue to lend their expertise on the land reform programme. We are aware that they are all world-renowned for their high quality of work and we are confident therefore that whenever called upon, they will not be found wanting. Concern has been expressed that some of the factors contributing to the high rise in land prices are the costs relating to transfer duties and conveyancing charges. Attention needs to be paid to this matter to ensure that land redistribution between private individuals in the open market is not hampered as a result of these high charges.

In the course of our interaction with the officials of the Ministry and Departments of Agriculture and Land Affairs, we have come to realise that there is a great deal of enthusiasm for the work at hand, as well as an all- pervading spirit of teamwork among them. We thank them also for their co- operation with the portfolio committee. [Time expired.] [Applause.]

Mr A J BOTHA: Mr Chairperson, hon Minister and chairperson of the portfolio committee, please allow me also to welcome the honoured guests on the gallery. I believe these guests are living proof that our nation is, at last, finding its soul again. I thank them for being here today.

Many speakers today mentioned the importance of water and land and, in fact, land and water are life. Therefore, it should be of some concern to us that at many times during the day in the debate, there were more people upstairs on the gallery than on the floor of Parliament. Where is our seriousness about this matter?

The Minister of Water Affairs referred in passing to the role of commercial agriculture in the combating of cholera. One wonders whether the Minister is fully aware of how big this contribution was. It is a fact that most farmers have potable water supplied to all people living on such farms. This means that we are looking at about 15 000 such water schemes that have been in operation for many decades. In fact, the Minister made a mistake when he claimed that the limited supply of free water that is now being implemented is a historic first. These schemes have always and are still supplying water, even to the extent of watering home gardens, mostly completely free of any charge.

The budget briefing by our Department of Land Affairs to the Portfolio Committee on Agriculture and Land Affairs was an event to remark upon. The director-general and his staff were to the point and so frank that they even revealed uncertainty on some issues, where applicable. Since none of us are perfect, it is illuminating how much confidence such openness inspired. So much confidence that the Chairperson of the committee, who is himself an inkosi, even today blatantly lobbied for a handout of free tractors for himself.

The history of land administration in our country is not a happy one and, under the circumstances, this department is exceedingly difficult to administer. It is, therefore, greatly to their credit that sensible prioritisation has resulted in a really dramatic increase in the settlement of land claims. Speedy resolution is of major importance to claimants, some of whom suffered deprivation of their rights for generations, while uncertainty also impacts very negatively on farming activity on land, as has been claimed.

It appears that these positive results can be attributed, in the main, to three actions: The expenditure of personnel is well within the accepted 35% limit of total expenditure, leaving enough of the budget for the true purpose of the department. This ratio is enabled by a stated insistence on standards of competence from both personnel and professional services. It is made quite clear that while affirmative action was practised, the fact that someone was previously disadvantaged was not accepted as a convenient excuse for poor performance or shoddy delivery.

Wide compliance with this principle will ensure that policy objectives are attained, thus accelerating economic growth, without which there can be no alleviation of poverty nor delivery to the public at large. Innovative juggling of funds within a severely limited budget enabled the speeding up of restitution. This bright picture, unfortunately, has a darker side. The already mentioned budget constraints necessitated the robbing of Peter in order to pay Paul. The suffering party in this exercise is the land reform programme, in which we see a decline of R108 million, or 35%, over the next three years.

The department is probably correct in stating that the new policy of commercial establishments is still developing and driven by demand that will accelerate only with time. It is therefore, not underfunded at present. Having said that, it is important to note that Government aims to achieve the transfer of 30% of all agricultural land over a period of 15 years. This implies that, at least 26 million hectares will be acquired at a very roughly estimated cost of R26 billion. Over the full period of 15 years, by its own calculation, the Government expects the cost in grants to amount to approximately R19 billion.

Having budgeted for just under R800 million over the next three years, this means an average allocation of R1,6 billion per year for the next 12 years, from 2004 to 2005 onwards. Accepting that the present allocation to restitution will also become available for this purpose in the future, it still means a sudden increase of more than 300% in just one year. On top of this a seriously underfunded Department of Agriculture, both nationally and in the provinces, will require huge additional allocations in order to serve the new emerging agricultural enterprises, besides maintaining existing infrastructure.

This raises two questions: Where must the money come from? Secondly, how do we awaken provincial governments to the importance of agriculture? In many provinces capacity in the Department of Agriculture and Land Affairs barely exists. In the Eastern Cape, to use just one example, 87% of the budget goes to personnel expenditure. Without the political will and discipline to tackle this, none of the plans will come to fruition.

Where the money must come from is an even greater problem, especially in the severely strained agricultural economy. This is the more so if it is considered that the capital for land acquisition is only the beginning. Just to stock the land with breeding animals requires at least as much again, not to mention the huge costs of establishing orchards and the years before the first fruits can be marketed.

The purpose of stating these realities is not to spread doom and gloom, of which we in the Democratic Alliance are so often incorrectly accused. Rather, it is to bring to our attention the reality and the need to look widely for solutions to a problem that is not of the making of the present Government. Should it, however, not be dealt with effectively, it will become an insurmountable problem for this or any other future government. The key to the solution lies in the involvement of the private sector. Today the Minister mentioned various options and, in February 2000, the Minister announced the need for public-private partnerships.

Here is a golden opportunity of at least partially privatising land reform. Such a programme should be seen as complementary to and not in conflict with the present Government programmes. Funding for it will not be found in the open market, as the terms of trade in agriculture do not attract outside venture capital, but it can be found in the international donor countries.

There appears to be a belief that the Zimbabwe disaster has made donor countries so wary that they will have nothing to do with land reform. On the other hand, Government seems to believe that the measure of control that donors demand is unacceptable. Routing funds via the private sector, in the form of subsidised rolling capital destined for eventual private repayment, could inspire more international confidence and would prevent direct government-to-government business dealings.

Within parameters agreed with the Government, the donors would then deal directly with various land-reform initiatives. This would enable them to monitor the effective application of funds and contribute to targeted training and follow-up support. Not only would such a programme contribute markedly to land reform, but it would also inject very necessary new capital into a seriously ailing agricultural economy. The growing debt burden at present stands at R30 billion, which is already a dangerous percentage of gross income. Any relief in the service costs of this debt would contribute to the improvement of competitiveness in the globalising economy.

Empowerment in agriculture is a very complex procedure. Unlike the very straightforward black empowerment on the Johannesburg Stock Exchange, it is not mainly a paper chase. It is physical and fragmented in nature, and will require the interaction of a very large number of people, some with severely limited skills. No stone must be left unturned in mobilising the entire sector to successfully conclude this vast and most important undertaking of our nation. [Applause.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! Hon members, during his speech, the hon Mr Botha raised the question of attendance. Just to balance the picture, I think it is important to note that this morning there were no fewer than 11 committee meetings that were taking place, and also that it has been a pretty long day, because members have been at it from 10 o’clock. That is merely to balance that it is not by volition that many members are not here this afternoon. Mr G B BHENGU: Chairperson and hon members, the IFP will support the Vote. The IFP acknowledges that the Department of Agriculture and Land Affairs has lived up to its aim in so far as the creation, establishment and maintenance of equitable land dispensation within the context of reconstruction, growth and development is concerned.

This mission itself indicates that we are living in the era of transformation. The Department of Agriculture and Land Affairs has a number of core fundamental programmes. I am going to highlight some of them in the ensuing paragraph. The revised land programme to support sustainable rural development policies and interventions enjoy our full support. The revision of programmes is a sign that people and organisations want to improve and to do better than they have done to achieve the best. It is also a sign of acknowledging that people or organisations have learnt or are willing to learn from their mistakes.

The Land Reform Programme aims to provide grants to previously disadvantaged people to gain access to land for agricultural purposes. This programme will of course ensure that land is not only given to the people as a basic human right, but to also make them derive value from it. The country will and should also derive a return to the benefit of the whole population.

Many families in South Africa sustain themselves by tilling the soil rather than by actual employment. This is because a large part of the population is either unemployed or has no chance of employment at all. The departmemt has targeted a 15-year period to facilitate the transfer of 30% of agricultural land to the farming communities or people who can utilise it for agricultural activity. The IFP realises that the Ministry and the department echo this noble sentiment with modesty and humility, because they have done quite a lot towards land reform. This is reflected in the zeal they have shown in disposing of land totalling about 669 000 hectares.

We believe that there should indeed be a realignment of deeds, survey and mapping functions to support land reforms. This activity should be reviewed and reassessed to achieve key outputs and key performance indicators the department has set itself to achieve. The increase of the budget over the medium term from R10,5 million to R15,6 million attests to this noble trend.

The IFP welcomes the decentralisation of support services and delivery mechanisms to provincial land reform offices and to local government structures. Land reform will indeed be accelerated. These structures are closer to the people and they understand what the people want as a luxury and what people need as a necessity. Land is one of the necessities needed by our people.

This cause will promote a people-centred development which is part of service delivery with the people rather than for the people. People need to feel their worth within the larger population. This worth should therefore be enhanced by departmental collaboration, more so than by intervention. The IFP appreciates the fact that provincial land reform offices will not only deal with administrative and support services for land reform, but also manage such services.

We acknowledge the foresight with which the Ministry is trying to deal with issues. Hindsight stalls progress and it is costly to do today what one should have done yesterday. It is even worse to do what should have been done a hundred years ago. We understand with some hindsight that what the Ministry has to deal with has been imposed on it by the course of history. This scenario surely impinges upon present and future human and financial resources meant for present and future situations.

In this vein we wish to see more being done and to hear news of the willing buyer and willing seller strategies that the department wanted to embark upon. We need to hear problems encountered by the department in this regard. We will then engage ourselves in fruitful debates to attempt to solve those problems.

We in the IFP fully support the view that the Land Claims Commission must work closely with local authorities to explore housing development, instead of settling land claims through monetary compensation. Over the long term this will enhance the quality of life and restore the dignity of families and communities. We would like to see a more proactive approach in addressing the issue of farm tenants.

We still see large traces of farm evictions meted out to tenants who are even third-generation farm tenants. These tenants know no other place than the farm on which they grew up and more so sold their cheap labour, but in the end they are evicted aliens. The plight of these people is aggravated by the very fact of offering cheap labour. They cannot stand on their own in the face of evictions.

Uma sengiphetha, ngifuna ukusho ukuthi okubi kakhulu futhi okuye kufike kube buhlungu ukubuka lapho eseshonile lowo muntu obekade akhele ipulazi. Izihlobo ziye zintunte nesidumbu sakhe ngoba senqatshelwa ukuthi singcwatshwe lapho echithe khona yonke impilo yakhe. Esikucelayo-ke, njenge- IFP, ukuthi njengezakhamizi zaseNingizimu Afrika kufuna - singabezinhlanga ezehlukene - sibuyise lokho okuthiwa ubuntu. Kufuneka sazi ukuthi leli yizwe elilodwa laseNingizimu Afrika futhi kufuneka sonke sisebenzisane ngaleyo mithombo yezinto eziwusizo ukuze siphile kahle sakhe umnotho.

Okwesibili engikubonga kakhulu kuNgqongqoshe ukuba aqale uhlelo lokuba anqamulele izindlela zokuba abantu bathole umhlabathi, lowo abafake izicelo zokuthi babuyiselwe wona. Kunokuba kuthathwe lezo zindlela zomthetho, zizothi ziza kodwa labo bantu abangondingasithebeni bebe sebesemhlabeni.

Okwesithathu, ngithi masithathe isifundo kosozimboni abakhiqiza ushukela abekade benamapulazi amakhulu futhi bewalima ngoba iningi labo lithathe lawo mapulazi lathi makahlukaniswe phakathi ukuze anikezwe abalimi abancane abazoba ngabalimi abazinzile. Nezinye-ke izimboni ezinjenga lezo ezisebenzisa umhlaba, zibe zinomhlaba, kuhle zithathe lezo zifundo ngoba akukuhle ukuba abanye baphile abanye belamba. [Ihlombe.] (Translation of Zulu paragraphs follows.)

[In conclusion, I would like to mention that the most painful and worst thing was to see things that used to happen after a farm dweller had passed away. Relatives went up and down with a corpse because they were not allowed to bury their loved one in the area in which he spent all of his life. What we are asking as the IFP is that we as South African citizens from different backgrounds should bring ubuntu back to our consciousness. We need to know that we are living in one country, therefore we should co- operate and use our resources jointly so that we would be able to build wealth.

Secondly, I would like to thank the hon the Minister for the short-cut she is now taking to enable people to acquire land quickly, especially those who have applied. Legal procedures will be followed, but in the meantime people will be living on their land.

Thirdly, we should learn a lesson from sugar companies that had big farms. They cultivated the land and then shared it with small farmers so that they would become stable farmers. Other companies like those that own and utilise land should learn the same lesson, because it is not a good thing to have some people who are well off, while others are living in abject poverty. [Applause.]]

Nkskz A N SIGCAWU: Mhlalingaphambili, malungu ePalamente, inguqu esele yenzekile phantsi kwenkqubo yokubuyisela umhlaba owathatyathwa ngurhulumente wengcinezelo kunye nabamaphandle ebantwini, ayinakulityalwa kwimbali yeli lizwe kuba sele kubonakala umahluko omkhulu empilweni yabo bantu bathe babuyiselwa umhlaba wabo nguRhulumente we-ANC.

Ngokumalunga nale mihlaba ithe yabuyiselwa ebantwini, uRhulumente wanika abanini-mihlaba leyo nemali yokuyiphuhlisa. Ndithetha ngomhlaba wasePort St Johns osele unikezelwe kubaniniwo. Nangoku sele kukho osezandleni, ungowaseUmnga Flats, Biursti Kraal ngaseCala naseNgube state farms. Uluntu lunovuyo olukhulu xa uRhulumente wabo ebabuyisela emihlabeni yabo ababeyihluthwe ngolunya ngoorhulumente bakuqala. Kungoku nje, abantu bayakwazi ukuzakhela amakhaya nokuvelisa izilimo bethe gabalala. Noomama basemaphandleni banovuyo olukhulu ngokubandakanyeka kwabo kwimibandela yemihlaba.

Ekubuyiselweni kwemihlaba, abantu batsho bakwazi ukwenza iiprojekthi zolimo nezokufuya. Ezi projekthi zixhaswe liSebe lezoLimo neMicimbi yeMihlaba. Ezi projekthi ndithetha ngazo yiMayibuye Poultry and Piggery eseTholeni, iThandumakhelwane vegetable growing eselalini kwaZulu, eNtabankulu, kwakunye neSenxaniba Irrigation eseMbangweni kwakuNtabankulu.

Okokugqibela mandishiye lo myalezo: SinguRhulumente masijonge banzi ekwakhiweni kwee-ofisi zeSebe lezoLimo neMicimbi yeMihlaba, kwakunye nokunceda uluntu ngeeteletele ekulimeni emaphandleni. [Kwaqhwatywa.] (Translation of Xhosa speech follows.)

[Mrs A N SIGCAWU: Madam Speaker, hon members, the change that has already taken place in the process of giving back land that was forcefully taken from people by the apartheid and homeland governments, will never be forgotten in the history of this country, because already there is a visible difference in the lives of those people who have had their land given back to them by the ANC-led Government.

Regarding this land that has been given back to people, the Government even gave the owners money to develop it. I am talking about land in Port St Johns that has been given back to its rightful owners. There is more land to be distributed at Umnga Flats, Biursti Kraal near Cala and Ngube state farms.

People are happy when their Government returns the land to them that was forcefully taken from them by the former governments. Now people are able to build their homes and produce on their land in a relaxed manner. Even women from rural areas are happy that they are being included in issues of land.

In the land restitution process, people are now able to initiate farming projects. These projects are supported by the Department of Agriculture and Land Affairs. I am talking about the Mayibuye poultry and piggery projects at Tholeni and the Thandumakhelwane vegetable growing in a village in KwaZulu-Natal at Ntabankulu, and the Senanxiba Irrigation at Mbangweni, also at Ntabankulu.

Finally, I would like to say this: We, as the Government, should look carefully at the issue of building offices for the Department of Agriculture and Land Affairs and at assisting people in the rural areas with tractors, so that they can plough their fields. [Applause.]]

Mr S ABRAM: Mr Chairperson, the budget for Land Affairs before us deals with one of the most emotional and provocative issues in South Africa today. Some even say we are sitting on a time bomb. The events of the past year in Zimbabwe have elevated the issue to new and higher levels of controversy.

The overall responsibility of Government is to create the environment within which agriculture practitioners can operate. In our situation this also means creating an opportunity for the entrance of disadvantaged communities. Therefore, land should only be distributed to people who show a flair for agriculture.

Such entrants must be thoroughly screened to determine eligibility and land should then be leased out at nominal rates for a prescribed period. The entrant should be monitored continuously and, if proven to be hard-working and potentially successful the land should be transferred at the end of the prescribed period. The entrant should be given all possible assistance and training during the trial period. It follows that without collateral the entrant will be largely dependent on Government-sponsored schemes, which means subsidisation.

We urge the Minister to treat land reform and distribution not as an end itself, but rather as a step toward socioeconomic empowerment. We would like to see greater budgetary resources, through the Department of Agriculture and Land Affairs, channelled towards settling and assisting emerging farmers on land. In this regard we welcome the changes in the land reform programme grants which allows for flexibility in the range of products available.

We anxiously await the complete roll-out of land redistribution for the agricultural development programme under Programme 5 of the budget. It is hoped that this programme will address the above concerns. Many existing commercial farmers are presently being liquidated by commercial banks.

Innovative financial packages with low interest rates will have to be developed if new entrants are to succeed. The poor-white problem in the 1920s was addressed by the government of the day in specific ways which may still be relevant today. The need for farmers’ co-operatives to address present-day and unique problems in our country need to be seriously considered.

We call on the Minister to adopt the new approach in dealing with the huge backlog in land restitution and land distribution applications. It is suggested that the department distribute the millions of hectares of state land at its disposal as a first step in addressing the backlog, thereby avoiding the costly and time-consuming measure currently in place.

Another inhibiting factor is the cost involved in the transfer bond costs and registration of deeds, particularly for first-time purchasers and the previously disadvantaged. Legal transfer, bond registration costs and duties payable on a transaction of R500 000 amounts to over R40 000. The Minister should, together with the relevant Cabinet colleagues, consider ways to alleviate this burden.

With regard to further land acquisition, many liquidations are currently taking place. At recent auctions of farms figures like R380, R440 and R480 per hectare have been recorded. We therefore urge the department to consider buying such farms for the purpose of new farmer settlement. I see the red light flashing. I thank you. [Applause.]

Ms C DUDLEY: Mr Chairperson, this is the budget that actually contains the finance for the implementation of both land and agricultural programmes, and I shall proceed with this in mind.

We have heard the well laid-out plans and progress reports of the department and the noble aims of the Minister. And we have heard the concerns and the opinions of the opposition. Now it is time to hear what the ultimate authority has to say:

It will come to pass that if you diligently obey the voice of the Lord, your God, and observe carefully all His commandments and statutes, God will set you high above all the nations of the earth. You will be blessed in the city and in the country, in the fruit of your body, the produce of your ground and the increase of your cattle and the offspring of your flocks, blessed in your basket and your kneading bowl, in your storehouses and in all to which you set your hand. The Lord will give rain to you in each season and you shall lend to the nations and not borrow. However, it shall come to pass if you do not obey the voice of the Lord, your God. The curse will come upon you and overtake you.

Africa has the ability to feed the entire world twice over, yet Africa is still impoverished. A continent blessed with abundant resources and capable of feeding the world is starving. It is easy to blame each other, but we do not need excuses, we need answers. When our leaders and Constitution are in line with God’s word, curses and poverty will be lifted off our land, making way for blessing and prosperity.

The three land reform programmes, while still a long way from achieving the desired results, are steps toward a positive future for all. It is worth noting that restitution and reconciliation are not concepts dreamt of by the ruling party. They are, in fact, clear mandates given to God’s people.

I implore the people of South Africa not to fight God on this issue. We would be well advised to accept God’s grace and his mercy, and work together towards achieving a fair and just society or face God’s wrath and judgment. The ACDP will vote in favour of the Land Affairs budget. Siyabonga, God bless South Africa. [Applause.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! Although this is Mr P J Groenewald’s maiden speech, I do not think he needs protection from the Chair.

Mnr P J GROENEWALD: Voorsitter, soos u sê, ek het darem seker nie u beskerming nodig nie, aangesien ek al meer as 200 toesprake hier gehou het, en dan hou mens seker nie meer jou nooienstoespraak nie.

Die agb Minister het gesê grond is baie belangrik. Ek wil vir die agb Minister sê die VF stem saam. Inteendeel, ek wil vir die agb Minister sê, grond kan ‘n land se ekonomie vernietig. Grond kan ‘n land in ‘n oorlog dompel. Daarom is daar ‘n uiters groot verantwoordelikheid wat op die skouers van die agb Minister rus. Die wyse waarop grondhervorming in Suid- Afrika gehanteer gaan word, gaan bepaal of die grondkwessie ons land se ekonomie gaan vernietig en of ons land in ‘n oorlog gedompel gaan word.

Die vraag is, hoe het die departement grondhervorming tot nou toe in Suid- Afrika gehanteer? Aan die een kant is daar die grondeienaars, die boere. Van die boere se kant af, is daar ‘n gewilligheid om op ‘n verantwoordelike manier op te tree. ‘n Goeie voorbeeld is die landbou-unies wat hul hulp aanbied en saamstem dat grondhervorming wel moet plaasvind, maar wel op ‘n verantwoordelike manier.

In die Noordwes-provinsie is ek bewus daarvan dat die Noordwes Landbou-unie uit hulle pad gaan wat grondhervorming betref. Hulle kom selfs na vore om te sê dat daar boere is wat bereid is om nie meer voort te gaan met hul boederyaktiwiteite nie, en hulle plase dan beskikbaar stel vir grondhervorming.

Van die departement se kant af is daar egter ‘n probleem. Kyk ons na Beeld van 13 Februarie, dan lui die opskrif: ``Verkoop of ons vat jou plaas’’. Dit gaan oor mnr Willem Pretorius van die plaas, Boomplaats. Die departement het ondanks verskeie onderhandelinge ‘n onversetlike houding ingeneem en Pretorius voor ‘n keuse gestel: Verkoop teen die laagste waardasieprys of word onteien. Dit is ‘n resep vir konflik.

‘n Ander opskrif in Beeld van 20 Februarie lui: Die weermag help keer KwaZulu-Natal plaasbesettings. ``As die regering ons verskuif, moet hulle solank die kiste regkry,’’ sê ‘n verteenwoordiger.

Sowel die plakkers as boere beskuldig die owerhede daarvan dat hulle in die steek gelaat is met die grondeis wat reeds in 1996 ingedien is. Terselfdertyd moet die veiligheidsmagte op ‘n gereedheidsgrondslag gebring word. Hierdie is voorbeelde wat vir ons wys dat daar probleme is. Dit is verkeerd om die boere te teiken as die mense wat rassiste is. Dit gaan die gevolg hê dat die grondhervorming in Suid-Afrika ons ekonomie gaan vernietig.

Die voormalige Minister van Grondsake, mnr Derek Hanekom, het die moeite gedoen om alles op die grondvlak reg te kry. Die huidige Minister moet hiermee voortgaan, en dit help nie die ANC sit die vorige Minister in die ``scrapyard’’ van die ANC nie. Daar moet opgetree word! [Tussenwerpsels.] [Tyd verstreke.] (Translation of Afrikaans speech follows.)

[Mr P J GROENEWALD: Chairperson, as you said, I probably do not need your protection as I have delivered over 200 speeches here, and I suppose that then one does not make a maiden speech.

The hon the Minister said land is very important. I want to tell the hon the Minister that the FF agrees with that. On the contrary, I want to tell the hon the Minister: Land could destroy a country’s economy. Land could plunge a country into war. That is why a very great responsibility rest on the hon the Minister’s shoulders. The manner in which land reform is going to be dealt with in South Africa will determine whether land issues will destroy the economy of our country or plunge our country into war.

The question is: How has the department dealt with land reform in South Africa up to now? On the one hand there are the owners of the land, the farmers. The farmers, for their part, are willing to act in a responsible way. A good example is the agricultural unions that are offering their assistance and agreeing that land reform does have to take place, but in a responsible manner.

In the North West Province I know that the North West Agricultural Union is going out of its way in respect of land reform. They have even come forward to say that there are farmers who are prepared not to continue with their farming activities any longer, and to make their farms available for land reform purposes.

On the part of the department there is a problem, however. When we look at Beeld of 13 February, the headline reads: ``Verkoop of ons vat jou plaas.’’ [Sell or we take your farm.] This concerns Mr Willem Pretorius of the farm, Boomplaats. The department, despite several discussions, adopted an unyielding attitude and faced Pretorius with a choice: Sell at the lowest valuation price or the land will be expropriated. This is a recipe for conflict.

Another headline in Beeld of 20 February reads: Die weermag help keer KwaZulu-Natal plaasbesettings.'' [The army helps prevent KwaZulu-Natal farm occupations.]As die regering ons veskuif, moet hulle solank die kiste regkry’’ [If the government removes us, they should get the coffins ready], a representative said.

Both the squatters and the farmers accuse the authorities of leaving them in the lurch with regard to a land claim that had been submitted as long ago as 1996. At the same time the security forces have to be put in a state of preparedness. These are examples that show us that there are problems. It is wrong to target farmers as the people who are racists. This will cause land reform in South Africa to destroy our economy.

The former Minister of Land Affairs, Mr Derek Hanekom, went to the trouble of preparing everything at grass roots level. The present Minister must proceed with this, and it does not help for the ANC to put the former Minister in the ``scrapyard’’ of the ANC. Action should be taken! [Interjections.] [Time expired.]]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! Members who are leaving the Chamber should please do so quietly.

Die ADJUNKMINISTER VIR LANDBOU EN GRONDSAKE: Mnr die Voorsitter, ek moet sê ek is baie teleurgesteld met die agb Groenewald se toespraak. Dit lyk vir my of die VF nou ‘n bepaalde koers ingeslaan het onder hulle nuwe leier. Ons neem kennis daarvan.

Die agb lid het die geval Pretorius heeltemal verkeerd beoordeel. Ek weet nie of hy oor die feite beskik nie. Die Minister het daardie saak onder hande geneem om ordentlik volgens die beginsels van die reg onderhandelings te open om op ‘n vreedsame wyse hierdie saak te beredder. Ek dink sy verdien die hoogste lof vir die baie besondere, manmoedige optrede - as ek dit aan ‘n vrou mag sê - waarop sy daardie saak gehanteer het. Kom ek sê eerder dankie vir die “vroumoedige” wyse waarop sy dit onder hande geneem het.

Die pad om te gaan, is dié van onderhandelinge en op geen ander manier gaan mens hierdie saak beredder nie. Ek gaan nie nou weer ‘n toespraak hou oor onteiening nie, want ek het dit reeds in die Nasionale Raad van Provinsies gedoen. Daar is ‘n manier om na onteiening te kyk as ‘n verligte middel van moderne demokrasieë en dít is die manier waarop hierdie departement dit gaan hanteer. Op die oomblik word daardie aangeleenthede baie verstandig gehanteer, gesien die uiterste provokasie wat ons soms ondervind, veral van diegene wat deur die Transvaalse Landbou-unie beïnvloed word. Laat ons dit reguit sê. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)

[The DEPUTY MINISTER FOR AGRIGULTURE AND LAND AFFAIRS: Mr Chairperson, I must say that I am very disappointed will the hon Groenewald’s speech. It seems to me as if the FF has now adopted a particular course under their new leader. We are taking note of this.

The hon member evaluated the Pretorius case totally incorrectly. I do not know whether he has the facts at his disposal. The Minister took that matter in hand in order to start proper negotiations according to the legal principles, in order to resolve this matter in a peaceful way. I think she deserves the highest praise for the exceptionally manly - if I may say that of a woman - way in which she handled that issue. Let me rather say thank you for the “womanly” way in which she has taken charge of it.

The cause to adopt is that of negotiations, and this matter will not be resolved in any other way. I am not going to make another speech about expropriation, because I have already done so in the NCOP. There is a way of viewing expropriation as an enlightened measure employed by modern democracies, and that is the way in which this department is going to approach it. At the moment those issues are being handled very sensibly in the face of the extreme provocation that we sometimes experience, particularly from those who are being influenced by the Transvaal Agricultural Union. Let us say so openly.]

I want to talk about a different aspect and that is the relationship between sustainable development and special planning. Could I convey my thanks to some people who are seldom, mentioned but who are doing competent work. Those are the officers of the Surveyor-General, the deeds office people, the people who are doing the mapping surveys and geographical information systems in South Africa. They are like people who are on a big ocean liner, and everyone only sees the captain and the officers who are in the limelight, and the entertainers and the people who look after the passengers. Everyone forgets that somewhere down below there are engineers sitting in the engine room, giving power to the ship and getting it somewhere.

To some extent the people in survey offices and deeds offices are in the engine room - nothing is possible without those people. Everything we do, it could be land reform or restitution - whatever we do - is based on the work that is being done by those people. I want to say to them that we regard them highly and we value their work. It is sometimes very tedious, very exact and very demanding work that is done by those people. I thank them ever so much.

People in rural areas have tremendous demands facing them. They must achieve increased production, they must raise their living standards, and they must try and achieve a position of food security or self-sufficiency. This is very demanding work in the times in which we live. And also, at the same time, many land projects fail throughout the world or are only partially successful.

If one looks at land reform projects all over the world in history, one will see that the sustained benefits which one gets from land reform projects are sometimes small in relation to the inputs that governments and donors have put into those projects. It is notoriously difficult to do, but lessons have been learned from history and from these experiences, and I think that our Department of Land Affairs has learned from those lessons and they are doing exceedingly well.

There are a lot of reasons for unsuccessful outcomes. It could be the lack of clear or consistent policies. Our department has those policies in place. It could be the failure to address the legitimate goals of the land users or to involve them in planning. Our department is succeeding in that respect. It could be the failure to address all sides or all issues of the relevant problems.

In the new integrated land reform project, initiated by the President, we are addressing the holistic aspects of the problem. It could also be, and this is the reason that is often given for the failure of land reform to succeed on a sustainable basis in the long run, the inadequate or ineffective regulation of land use. I want to say that we have come to address this problem in a very systematic way.

We are going to hold the world conference Rio Plus ten on sustainable development next year in Johannesburg. We are going to spend much of this year until that conference thinking about sustainable development in this country. The basic hypothesis which has been found to the foundation of possible success is that soil and water conservation and sustainable land management must not only be ecologically effective, but also economically profitable to be sustainable and to succeed.

Huge investments are needed to pour capital into the rural economy in South Africa. Farms need better inputs, soil, livestock, better housing and better human capital and trained human capital. We in Africa and in South Africa contribute much of the labour for agriculture, therefore increasing access to capital assets, including land and credit, is essential.

Where will the resources come from? Rural financial markets are poorly developed and credit cannot be expected to finance the long-term investments required. Like everywhere in Africa, in South Africa Government is overextended and has to concentrate on the most essential public services. But we have to succeed in pouring capital into the rural areas.

If one looks at Africa, about 300 million Africans are risk-living in water- scarce environments - the numbers are terrible. Since World War II, two thirds of Africa’s agricultural soil, one third of permanent pastures, one fifth of woodlands and forests have become degraded to some or other extent, and since World War II there has been a productivity loss of about 25% of cropland and unabated deforestation.

We have to stop this in South Africa, and the only way we can do it is to plan better, including our agricultural land and our whole rural areas, and to regulate and manage the use of land in South Africa better. The broad objective must be to facilitate allocation of land, not only for the development of our people, but also at the same time to facilitate the allocation of land to uses that provide the greatest sustainable benefits and the promotion of a transition to a sustainable and integrated management of land resources. [Interjections.]

Die eenvoudige antwoord is dít, as ek dit aan die agb Groenewald kan rig: Ek maak gebruik van twee woorde. [The simple answer is this, if I may address this to the hon Groenewald: I am using two phrases.]

And those are land use planning and land use management.

Daar is geen nut daarin om net beplanning te doen nie, soos waarna die agb Groenewald verwys het nie. ‘n Mens se bestuur van grondbenutting is die belangrikste faktor. Dit is presies waaroor ek praat. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraph follows.)

[It serves no purpose just to do the planning, which is what the hon Groenewald was referring to. One’s management of land use is the most important factor. That is precisely what I am talking about.]

The basic idea is that land use planning cannot exist in a vacuum. It is only an aid to the decision-making necessary for land use management. We completed our White Paper on land use, planning and management, as well as a new Bill on land use, planning and management at the end of March. We are holding some consultations with national departments, and we hope to bring it before Parliament very soon.

The problem in South Africa, as people know, is that when the first democratically elected Government came to power in 1994, we inherited a fragmented, unequal and incoherent planning system. [Time expired.] [Applause.]

Mnu Z KOTWAL: Sihlalo, namuhla ngizokhuluma ngesiZulu ngoba ngakhulela emakhaya, lapho ulimi lukaJoji lungaziwa khona. [Ihlombe.] Lapho ngivela khona endaweni yasePiet Reitief, kahle hle eMabola futhi okuyindawo ebizwa ngokuthi yi-Dirkiesdorp ngesiBhunu, abanikazi bamapulazi bahlukumeza abantu abahlala emapulazini. Basebenzisa inyufomu efana neyamasotsha aseNingizimu Afrika. Asazi ukuthi ngabe bangamabutho amakhomando noma basebenzela izinkampanini zonogada yini.

Abantu bethu bayashaywa, abanye sebexhwalile. Kukhona omunye umkhulu, ubaba uMayisela, ongasaboni emehlweni. Kukhona nabanye omkhulu abashiswa ngezinsimbi zokuhlokoloza izinkomo ezithweni zangasese. Ubudoda babo abusasebenzi. Bayalamba futhi bathathelwa imfuyo yabo. Abanikazi bamapulazi bathusa abantu ukuze kuthi lapho sebebaxosha basheshe bahambe ngoba sebengenelwe ukwesaba.

EMabola sekunedolobha lemindeni ecishe ibe yi-100 yabantu ababaleka emapulazini. Lapho besuke bexoshwe khona amalungelo abo awahlonishwa. Baphuza amanzi angahlanzekile avela lapho kuya khona indle. Ngicela kudadewethu uNgqongqoshe uThoko Didiza noNgqongqoshe ubaba uLekota ukuba bayibhekisise le ndaba. Siyacela ukuthi le ndaba iphenywe, ababoshwayo baboshwe. [Ihlombe.]

Mayelana nalabo bantu abalahliwe futhi abashayiwe, sicela ukuthi udadewethu uThoko noMnyango wakhe bazame ukubanikeza indawo yokuhlala neyokulima ezoba yi-agri village. Uma kwenzeka, kufanele kube nendawo lapho bezokwakhelwa khona izindlu. Kufanele kube yindawo yokuhlola ukusebenza kwama-agri villages kule ndawo yaseMabola. Siyacela kudadewethu uNgqongqoshe.

Siyabonga ukuthi uMnyango wezemiHlaba uzokwabela abantu abaswele imihlaba. Eminyakeni engu-15, kuzobuyiselwa u-30% womhlaba wokulima. Siyakujabulela lokho kubuyiselwa kwabantu emhlabeni wabo. Siyabonga futhi ukuthi uMnyango wezemiHlaba uyibheka kabusha indaba yemali yokuxhasa engu-R16 000 lapho umuntu ebenikezwa khona umhlaba bese ehluleka ukuwusebenzisa ngoba engenayo imali. Kodwa manje abantu sizobasiza ukuze bakwazi ukulima. Lolo hlelo lubizwa ngokuthi yi-Land Redistribution and Agricultural Development Programme.

Mayelana nalolo hlelo, imiNyango kufanele ibambisane. UMnyango wezeziNdlu uzobakhela izindlu, kuthi uMnyango wezaManzi nezamaHlathi ubafakele amanzi kanti uMnyango wezeMfundo uzobakhela izikole. UMnyango wezeMpilo kufanele ubakhele imitholampilo. NgesiNgisi lokho kubizwa ngokuthi i-Intergrated Sustainable Rural Development Strategy. Sengathi lolo hlelo lungasheshiswa ukuze abantu bathole impilo engcono. Amandla!

AMALUNGU AHLONIPHEKILE: Awethu! [Ihlombe.]

Mnu Z KOTWAL: Sihlangabezana nezinkinga eziningi eMpumalanga. Laphaya e- Ermelo epulazini lika-Chris Els, igama lepulazi yi-Waterkuil, kuxoshwe umndeni wakwaMashiyane ngomhla ka-7 Meyi 2001 ngeviki eliphelile. Babalahle emgwaqeni.

Siyabonga kuHulumeni we-ANC nakuNgqongqoshe ngemizamo abayenzayo ngendaba yomhlaba. Kunamapulazi afana nalelo lakwaMahlafuna lapho abantu bakhona sebebuyele emihlabeni yabo. Siyakubonga lokho. [Ihlombe.] Izingane zesikole zasemapulazini zinenkinga yokuhamba amabanga amade uma ziya esikoleni. Siyabonga kuNgqongqoshe woMnyango wezeMfundo eMpumalanga, uMnu Padayachee, nakuHulumeni we-ANC ngokusiza izingane zasemakhaya ngezinto zokuhamba.

Siyacela kumhlonishwa uGibson nabangane bakhe ukuthi bakhulume nabafowabo ukuthi mabakuyeke ukuhlukumeza nokuxosha abahlali basemapulazini. [Ihlombe.] (Translation of Zulu paragraphs follows.)

[Mr Z KOTWAL: Chairperson, today I am going to speak Zulu because I grew up in the rural areas, where English is unknown. [Applause.] In Piet Retief, especially in Mabola, where I come from, in an area which is known as Dirkiesdorp in Afrikaans, farmers are exploiting people who live on their farms. These farmers wear a uniform, which is similar to that of the South African army. We do not know whether they belong to a particular force or whether they are just the security guards of a particular company.

Our people are beaten and some of them are paralysed now. There is a grandfather, father Mayisela, who is blind now because of this ill- treatment. Some grandfathers are beaten in their private parts with sticks that are used to control cattle. Their private parts are not functioning now. They are living in poverty and their property has been taken from them. Farmers intimidate people so that when they evict them, they will leave quickly since they have already been terrified. In Mabola, there is a village which consists of about 100 people. These people were evicted from farms. Their rights were not respected by those who evicted them. They drink unclean water, water that goes to sewage plants. I would like hon Minister Thoko Didiza and Minister Lekota to look seriously into this matter. We would like to see this incident investigated and those who are supposed to be arrested, must be arrested. [Applause.]

Regarding those who have been beaten and those who were evicted, we would like my sister Thoko Didiza and her department to provide these people with building land and ploughing land, where agricultural villages could be built. If possible, there should be a place where their houses could be built. Mabola should have inspectors who will inspect agricultural villages. We are making this request to my sister, the hon the Minister.

We appreciate the fact that the Department of Agriculture and Land Affairs is going to give land to the landless. In about 15 years, 30% of ploughing land will have been returned to the people. We greatly appreciate the process of returning people to their land. We are also happy that the Department of Agriculture and Land Affairs is considering the possibility of giving people R16 000, since previously a person would be given land and then failed to use it because he did not have money. Now we are going to help people so that they will be able to plough. This process is known as the Land Redistribution and Agricultural Development Programme.

Concerning this programme, departments should co-operate. The Department of Housing should build them houses. The Department of Water Affairs and Forestry should provide them with water and the Department of Education should build them schools. The Department of Health should build them clinics. In English, we call this the Integrated Sustainable Rural Development Strategy. We wish that this process should be speeded up so that people will have a better life. Power!

HON MEMBERS: Is ours! [Applause.]

Mr Z KOTWAL: We are coming across different types of problems in Mpumalanga. On Chris Els’s farm in Ermelo, which is known as Waterkuil, the Mashiyane family was evicted on 7 May 2001, last week. They were dumped on the side of the road. We are thankful to the ANC Government and to the hon the Minister for their efforts in respect of land. There are farms like Mahlafuna, where people have returned to their land. We appreciate that. [Applause.] Children who live on farms have the problem of having to walk long distances to their schools. We thank the hon the Minister of Education in Mpumalanga, Mr Padayachee, and the ANC Government for helping rural children with transport.

We ask Mr Gibson and his friends to talk to his brothers and ask them to stop ill-treating and evicting farm dwellers. [Applause.]]

Ons droom oor die hernuwing van ons vasteland, die Afrika Renaissance. Dit is ons vasteland en dit behoort aan almal van ons ongeag taal, ras of godsdiens. Die Afrikaner het ‘n groot rol te speel. Dié Regering sal nie alleen die probleme van ons land kan oplos nie. Julle het ons nodig en ons het julle nodig. [Tussenwerpsels.]

Om saam te staan teen verandering soos die DA wil hê, is nie die antwoord nie. Julle toekoms lê saam met ons in die ANC en ons wil die probleme van ons land saam met julle aanpak. Só kan ons almal wen. [Tussenwerpsels.] ‘n AGB LID: Bobbejaanspanner. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)

[We dream about the renewal of our continent, about the African Renaissance. This is our continent and it belongs to all of us, irrespective of language, race or religion. The Afrikaner has a big role to play. This Government will not be able to solve the problems of our country on its own. You need us and we need you. [Interjections.]

To stand united against change, as the DA wants to do, is not the answer. Your future lies with us in the ANC and we want to tackle the problems of our country with you. In this way we can all win. [Interjections.]

An HON MEMBER: Monkey wrench.]

[Mr Z KOTWAL: It is a great pity that settlers in Africa had love for the land and its beauty, but did not learn to identify with its people. They love the land, but not its people. I plead with everybody to take the hand of friendship offered by our President, Thabo Mbeki, and his Government. Let us walk together to build our country, so that no African child should ever again go hungry; so that our children, black and white, can hold their heads up high and be proud to be Africans. I am pleased to tell Comrade Minister that the ANC supports the Vote.

Mr P H K DITSHETELO: Chairperson, I would like to kick off by making a suggestion to the Land Affairs department that a staff audit be undertaken to determine whether or not it is overstaffed, in the light of the budget deficit on personnel. It is also cause for concern that during the 1999- 2000 financial year a substantial amount remained unspent on the land reform restitution programme, whilst during the corresponding period fewer grants were made to the beneficiaries than expected.

It is our sincere belief that with the implementation of the integrated programme of land redistribution and agricultural development, things will improve and resources allocated to these respective programmes will be used effectively and efficiently. It is indeed true that the roll-over reflects indecisiveness and poor planning, and we hope that the department will improve in this regard.

Dintlha tsa botlhokwa ke tse di lateng; go golaganngwa ga mananeotlhabololo a mafatshe le maikaelelo a tlhabololo, itlhaganediso ya kabo ya diheketara di le 669 000 tsa lefatshe, go lebelelwe ditlhopha tse di tlhokang thuso jaaka badiri ba ba nnang kwa mafelobodirelong le badiri ba dipolase, go tsenngwa tirisong ga ikgapelolefatshe e e bofefo e bile e direga go fitlhelela maikaelelo a moono wa … [Nako e fetile.] (Translation of Tswana paragraph follows.)

[Important points are the following. The integration of land development programmes and the determination of development involved a total of 669 000 hectares of land. We should concentrate on people who are in need of help, such as people who migrated to hostels and farm workers, in order to put in place land acquisition in an easy way. It also happens to achieve determination … [[Time expired.]]

Dr M S MOGOBA: Chairperson, the swan song of the PAC since 1912, and more audibly since 1959, is about land. We contend that independence without land is an empty shell. We are committed to this song, and instead of keeping quiet we shall shout from the mountains and rooftops.

We demand that the Constitution be amended or a referendum conducted, because we are certain that millions of landless citizens would win a landslide victory. The problem of land for the landless will not evaporate, it must be solved. The only peaceful way of resolving this problem is by calling a land summit or pitso or indaba. Together we can solve this problem.

The programme of restitution of land rights is very slow. There were 41 claims out of 67 531 in 1999, which are appreciated, of course, as opposed to 8 289 claims in January 2001. This is a commendable improvement, although it is only a small part of the entire problem.

Last Sunday I attended a historic funeral in Maleeuskop near Groblersdal, that of Mr Jan Letebele Matsepe. He had fought and suffered for the return of the Bakopa land in Thaba Nchu. He asked that when he died he should be buried among his ancestors in Thaba Nchu. The Government gave permission, for which we are very grateful.

This funeral was a joyous celebration. Supporters of the PAC, ANC, UDM, DA, Azapo, etc, jointly agreed that the return of the Bakopa land was long overdue. I know that the department and the Ministry are already considering this, but may I represent the wishes of the Bakopa people? The department and the Ministry must please speed up the restitution process. The Bakopa people are prepared to co-exist with the Maleeuskop Police College and enormous goodwill will flow from such restitution.

We all respect our Constitution and believe that the rights of landowners should be respected. On the question of protecting the property rights of landowners, we agree that it is important to do so. There is, however, another important test, that is the rights of the landless. The western concept of land tenure allows unbridled greed and for people to acquire all the available land until there is no more land to buy, or land is priced beyond what poor people can afford.

The African concept of land ownership considers the rights of the dead, the living and the unborn. Land belongs to one large family, few of whom are dead, many of whom are living, countless of whom are yet unborn.

To repeat what I said just now, we must protect the rights of the property owners, but we must also protect the rights of the landless. We support this Vote. [Time expired.]

Mr M S GININDA: Chairperson, hon Minister and members of this House, the struggle waged by the ANC against colonialism and apartheid was about getting people’s land back. We applaud and support the department’s motto being that.

My focus in this debate is on the restitution of land rights. The foundation is laid and the building has begun. We are, therefore, on course, because we are a nation at work for a better life, and are united in action for change. All these statements and many more confirm that we are on the right path and that we are serious about our national objective of bettering the lives of our people.

What further confirms our seriousness is the increase in the budgetary allocation for the commission. This gives new hope to those who have been waiting patiently for their claims to be processed so that they could go back to their land and rebuild their lives. We therefore welcome the increase in the budgetary allocation as it is a step in the right direction. We salute the Minister for that because we believe that this will go a long way towards alleviating the problems of landlessness, homelessness, poverty and malnutrition in rural areas. We believe that getting people’s land back is going to create tremendous job opportunities, improved production and economic growth that would result in an improved standard of living for our people. Hence we want to encourage the commission to speed up its efforts and do more.

As we pause to do some introspection and undertake a critical analysis of our performance during this debate, we are critical of the number of claims that are rejected by the commission during the validation process. The 220 claims that have been rejected so far require a critical look.

In my constituency many claimants were encouraged to lodge their claims before the deadline, which was 31 December 1998. The officials who were contracted to handle this task told the claimants that they had to lodge their claims, and that any additional information that might be required would be submitted later.

I really doubt if these claimants were asked to submit that additional information or whether their claims were unilaterally rejected. I am saying this because I was present at some of those meetings, as I decided to become fully involved from the initial stage of the restitution process. Many questions are now being asked as to why those claims were rejected. My constituency is very rural. Almost 97% of the people are victims of forced removals.

As we are moving forward together, I think that it will be wise for us to be supplied with the document that contains the criteria, rules, regulations or conditions that the commission is using in the process of validating the claims. In this way we could perhaps see whether or not we are shooting ourselves in the foot, and thereby defeating the very same aim for which the commission was established. This will also help us to give correct information to our voters, who keep on asking us questions.

I personally do not believe that there is any convincing justification for the rejection of some of the claims I submitted, a matter about which I wrote to the commission. I have records in my constituency office. This is because I have been communicating with the commission since 1995. I have objected to the fact that there are claimants who do not qualify or whose claims have been rejected. Perhaps one or three rejections can be justified. There are questions about this. Have the claimants whose claims have been rejected been written to, informing them about that? Have they been summoned to give their side of the story before those claims were rejected? Did the commission honour its legal mandate of assisting the claimants? Does the rejection comply with our motto: ``Getting people back to their land?’’

I know, perhaps, that the commission will tell me that those whose claims have been rejected will go for redistribution. But that does not bring them back to their ancestral land, which they claimed. The answer, in fact, would be negative - that they are not going to get back to their ancestral land. I argue so, because I am an African.

The majority of the members of this House understand the reason for wanting to get back ancestral land. Mostly, our people like to associate themselves with their ancestral environment for burial purposes and other cultural rituals. So, the rejection of claims on the basis of what I have said has to be discouraged, because it deprives many claimants of their right to their ancestral land, from which they were forcibly removed.

Many a time the former regional commissioner for Mpumalanga used to say to our claimants that they did not qualify. I used to argue strongly with her over this, because I do not believe that this is true on the basis of the evidence that is in our possession. How can one say that, when one physically sees those victims who are congested and overcrowded in those areas?

Somewhere, somehow, it seems we employ some officials who spoil the good work of the commission, officials who are there to ensure that they frustrate our Reconstruction and Development Programme. This is nothing but a betrayal of our democratic Government. Look at poor Mpumalanga. Only two claims have been settled for the whole of the Mpumalanga province over the past six years, regardless of the fact that Mpumalanga is characterised by the overwhelming victims of forced removals, who were dumped in the three former homelands in that province.

The commissioner responsible should be ashamed of such a significantly poor performance. One must look at the amount of money we spent in paying that official and compare that with his actual performance. It is true that the output must justify the input, but in this situation we experienced something different.

We are after actual delivery and nothing else. If there is a budget increase on the one hand, we also expect an increase in the speed and pace of processing of the claims on the other. All in all, this has to result in actual delivery. That is what we are looking forward to during this financial year. The ANC supports this budget. [Time expired.] [Applause.]

Mr S B FARROW: Mr Chairperson, hon Minister and hon members, my colleague the hon Andries Botha spoke about a form of occupancy of state land. In essence, security of tenure in whatever form should, as a matter of principle, be something that primarily produces collateral where required for banking institutions on the one hand, while, at the same time, offering the tenant the inherent right to pass that right on to their next of kin or to a willing buyer on the other.

But what about our poorer rural communities? The programme just spoken about is fine for those who can afford to take over and acquire state land from Government for practising productive agriculture and who seek to engage in profit-making commercial farming with all its intrinsic risks. The land cake is only so big, and to cut it up in such a way as to put every person on a plot of land, we contend, is doomed to failure. This would irreparably destroy our agricultural resource base and render this country incapable of ever again being able to produce sufficient food and fibre to feed and clothe our people.

The current status of now being one of only six net exporters of food in the world, despite the limitations of our agricultural environment, is not something to be discarded lightly. What then can be done for this sector of our community that tries to make a living on the so-called commonages or communal land, where everyone is fighting for the same blade of grass or piece of arable land, all of which is vested primarily in the whims and wishes of the local traditional leader or community structure?

Communally owned land is a historical reality in South Africa and, whilst the DA accepts that such land holds certain benefits for those who live on it, we believe this to be an outmoded form of tenure which is more disadvantageous than advantageous and should not be encouraged. Existing communal land should, wherever and whenever possible, be converted into an acceptable form of tenure in conjunction with progressive community leaders, of which, I hope, our chairperson the hon Holomisa will be one, in order to promote accountability and responsibility for its land use.

I like the idea of a land summit and workshop to actually thrash out that particular aspect in the near future. But let me give hon members an idea of how this could work from a model that I witnessed many years ago, strangely enough in Zimbabwe. A certain block of land under local authority had been used as a commonage. No control measures were in place to determine carrying capacity or what crops could be grown where or by whom. It was a free-for-all scenario.

Facilitators went into that area and talked to the community about the demise they were facing. No one was responsible for fixing the fence or rotating the grazing camps. No one was responsible for ensuring that the stock water system was operating correctly. No one saw to it that their cattle were being dipped properly, or that the dip had the correct strength. It was a typical case of everybody doing their own thing for the survival of the fittest.

Eventually, after a lot of deliberating, the community came together and formed a democratic company. The first thing they did was to elect from their ranks a manager, a secretary and a treasurer and, secondly, they looked at what the land could carry or produce in terms of livestock units and arable land. They then established which members of the community qualified for the right to land and formed a property ownership association. One could compare this to a body corporate in a block of flats, which operates in a similar sense.

The land was then entitled and equitably allocated among the qualifying members of the community, based on the carrying and arable capacity of the land unit. All the surplus stock was then sold off or disposed of. The members each paid a levy to the property association to meet the costs of their elected management, who were tasked with maintaining the fences and infrastructure of that particular block of land.

Livestock shares were interchangeable between members so there was always some income coming in to those who did not want to use up their grazing rights by simply renting them out. The community turned the disaster of the commonages around, and, to the best of my knowledge, the project is still operating successfully to this day. This is a case of matching optimum resources to optimum management in order to create optimum results.

My question to the hon Minister is: Why can we not consider a similar approach in our country? The Communal Property Associations Act, which was enacted by this Parliament in 1996, is a useful tool for considering pilot projects of this nature. The advantage is that if communities can obtain registration as an association, they can hold secure tenure to their land in common, so to speak. And,in doing so, they qualify for collateral from the banks.

The very same Act could be used to speedily provide tenure to many of the communities who have irrigation plots, on the defunct irrigation schemes which the Deputy Minister spoke about earlier and the resettlement schemes of the Eastern Cape. Here I could mention Ncora, Thyefu, Shiloh and Ntabethemba as examples. Agriculture in the Eastern Cape has the potential to equal and better all other agricultural potential in the rest of the country, provided it is well guided and promoted.

With regard to the previous debate on Water Affairs, I trust that the Minister will be looking at ensuring that there is some management agreements in place between resuscitating those schemes and also possibly making it a prerequisite to have some sort of land tenure in place in advance. The DA really believes that ownership is the key to development and this, clearly, should be the saviour from the demise of the commons and contribute significantly to the Department of Agriculture’s food security programme. [Applause.]

Mr L J MODISENYANE: Mr Chairperson, after listening to these Vote debates, I hope hon members will agree with me that the Government policy on land is beginning to remedy the injustices of the past and making reconstruction and development a success. Yes, success is brought about by service delivery, which supports land reform.

It is important to realise that service delivery is beginning to speed up through the co-ordinated approach and co-operation between the departments at national, provincial and local levels. That is how co-operative governance works, although some of our colleagues do not want to acknowledge that the Government is succeeding. This success will ensure that the theme ``Getting the people back to the land’’, comes true.

I believe that our approach is a complete departure from what used to happen in the disadvantaged communities in the past. Our Government encourages participation of beneficiaries in matters that affect them. We remember the late Prime Minister John Vorster, when he said: ``We help them to help themselves,’’ thereby reflecting on the black people. By implication he meant that we cannot do things on our own.

Dit is interessant dat sommige plaaseienaars al begin het om die doelwitte van die Regering in die praktyk toe te pas. Ek wil vir hulle sê om die blink kant bo te hou. Dit is hoe stabiliteit meegebring kan word en ons koester die hoop dat alles sal regkom, soos pres Jan Brand gesê het, alhoewel die Vrystaat Kimberley op daardie manier verloor het. Ek wil vir almal huiswerk gee, naamlik om hieroor na te dink. Ons moet baie stadig beweeg. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraph follows.)

[It is interesting that some farm owners have already started putting the policies of the Government into practice. I want to tell them to keep looking on the bright side. This is how stability can be achieved and we are hopeful that everything will work out well, as President Jan Brand said, although the Free State lost Kimberley in that way. I want to give everyone some homework, and that is to reflect on this. We must move very slowly.]

The hon the Minister will agree with me that we must continue to legislate within the framework of the common life, thereby ensuring that our legislation, indeed, commands obedience from farming residents, of which some are still called occupiers, which, I hope, will soon be changed to mean residents.

Ha ke dihela dikgala, ke re setjhaba sa mapolasing, Mmuso ha o a le lebala. Mmoho le lona, re tla tlisa diphetoho tse potlakileng. Le lona le tla thoholetsa mesebetsi e metle eo Mmuso o le fupareletseng yona. Re hopole hore, lepotlapotla le ja podi, lesisitheho le ja kgomo. Ka hoo, pele re a ya. Ke makaditswe ke mohl Botha, mme ha nka mo lebala, ke tla be ke entse phoso. Ho bonahala hore mohl Botha o lahlehile, mme eka ha ho na tsela e nepahetseng ya tsamaiso ka mona ka DP, hobane o ngangisana ka tsa temo ka nako eo ho buuwang ka tsa mebu. Jwale, ke ne ke re mohlomong ba mo tlotse hodimo, ebe o tlo iphetetsa ka tsa mobu, a bua ditaba tseo a neng a tshwanetse hore ebe o di buile hoseng, tseo re seng re sa di lebella.

Ka hona, ke re mohl Botha a tle ka kwano, re tle ho tla mo hlahlella hanyenyanenyana, hobane o diha profensi ya rona ya Freistata, ya batho ba ngangisaneng hantle hakana, bo Mong Bertie van der Merwe, jwalo ka ha ntate Moss Chikane a ile a tjho, a re bo Van der Merwe ba bang ba ile ba feta, e mong a ya KwaZulu-Natal, e mong a fetela Transfala, empa e mong o ile a sala Freistata.

Le a mmona, ya setseng Freistata, o ja mehatla ya dinku. O matla, ke yena Van der Merwe. Jwale, o tla ruta mohl Botha hore le yena a ngangisane ka ntho tse tshwanetseng, ka nako e tlang. Ya kgaola, ya ya! [Ditlatse.] (Translation of Sotho paragraphs follows.)

[In conclusion, I say to those people who stay on the farms, the Government has not forgotten you. Together with you, we will bring about quick changes. You will also applaud the good things that Government has in store for you. We must remember that he who hastens achieves a lot, but he who is patient achieves even more. Therefore, forward we go.

I was surprised by the hon Botha, and I would be making a mistake if I were to forget him. It appears that the hon Botha is lost, and there is no correct way of management in the DP, because he debates agriculture when we are talking about land. I thought, perhaps, he was left out and he was now getting his revenge on agricultural matters, talking about things that he should have spoken about this morning, things that we are no longer expecting to hear.

Therefore, I would like to ask the hon Botha to come to this side, and get a bit of information from us, because he is bringing our Free State province down. A province of people who debated so well, people like Mr Bertie van der Merwe and as Mr Moss Chikane, told us that some Van der Merwes travelled further, one travelled to KwaZulu-Natal, one travelled to the Transvaal, but one stayed on in the Free State.

You can see that the one who stayed in the Free State is having it easy. He is strong, he is the real Van der Merwe. He will teach Mr Botha how to debate the right issues in times to come. I am out of here! [Applause.]]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! Hon members will recall that when we had the debate with the Minister of Finance, we were treated to oranges. I hope the Minister of Agriculture and Land Affairs will also treat us to the sweet fruits of the land. [Applause.]

UNGQONGQOSHE WEZOLIMO NEZEMIHLABA: Sihlalo, kulolu daba ebesikhuluma ngalo, njengamanje, kucacile impela ukuthi akusilo udaba olulula neze lolo. Ngizoke ngithi ukuphendula kancane izinkulumo zamalungu ahloniphekile ePhalamende, ikakhulukazi mayelana nalokho okushiwo nguMnumzane uBotha.

Okokuqala nje mangisho ukuthi, cha, ngiyabonga kuMnu uBotha ngokuthi alubeke nokho uvo lwakhe - ikakhulukazi lwenhlangano yakhe - mayelana nalolu daba. Kodwa mhlawumbe kubalulekile ukuthi, yize inkinga yemali ikhona, sizibuze umbuzo othi: Ukuba laba balimi banamhlanje esikhuluma ngabo uhulumeni wabo wamaNeshinali wawumatasatasa ubuza lowo mbuzo othi ``Imali izovelaphi?’’ ngabe zaba khona yini izinhlelo ezifana no-Vaalharts?

Kufanele sikhumbule futhi ukuthi ngaleso sikhathi, kusaphethe bona, babengenalo lolu hlelo luka-willing buyer-willing seller. Babevele bathathe ngesidlozane bathi: suka la, hlala la, thatha wena mnumzane ulime. Babethatha esikhwameni bese bethi: nansi imali yezokunisela bethi futhi nansi imbewu ngoba phela babengenandaba nathi. Sasifana nabantu abangekho nje thina. Namhlanje-ke leli khekhe sekufanele silihlukanise. Siyabahlukanisela nabo noma babesihlupha nje. [Ihlombe.] Kubalulekile-ke ukuthi uma sikhuluma ngalolu daba, sibhekisise ukuthi sikhuluma kanjani.

Maqondana nobaba uKotwal, ngithanda ukusho namhlanje ukuthi cha, ngizwile. Ngike ngasho enkulumeni yami ukuthi impela lolu daba lwase-Wakkerstroom, Piet Retief naseMlomo, e-Ermelo, sibhekene nalo ngqo. Ngifuna ukusho ukuthi ngithumele amalungu oMnyango wami eKhiphinkunzi, Langevaart, Prospect, Masakhane, Klipspruit 1, Sukumani Balimi, Klipspruit 2 nase-Donkerhoek. (Translation of Zulu paragraphs follows.)

[The MINISTER FOR AGRICULTURE AND LAND AFFAIRS: Madam Speaker, regarding the issue we have been discussing, it became clear that it was not an easy one. I am going to answer some of the questions raised by hon members, especially the issues that have been mentioned by Mr Botha.

Firstly, I would like to thank Mr Botha for making his views known, especially the view of his party regarding this issue. Although we have money problems, it is important for us to ask ourselves this question: If the New NP had asked the question: ``Where are we going to get money from?’’, would the present farmers have emerged, would programmes like Vaalharts have been started?

We should also remember that during their era they did not have this willing buyer-willing seller programme. They did everything by force, saying to our people: You move and you, the farmer, can farm here.'' They took money from a fund and said:Here is the money for watering your crops and, again, here is the money you will use to buy seeds.’’ They did not care one iota? damn about us, the black people. We were like people who did not exist. Today we have to share this cake. We are giving them a share of the cake although they brutalised us. [Applause.] It is important to be careful what we say when we are discussing this issue.

Regarding the questions raised by father Kotwal, I would like to assure him that I really understood what he said. In my speech, I did mention that the issue concerning Wakkerstroom, Piet Retief, Mlomo and Ermelo, is the one that we are focusing on. I would like to mention that I have sent members of my department to Khiphinkunzi, Langevaart, Prospect, Masakhane, Klipspruit 1, Sukumani Balimi, Klipspruit 2 and Donkerhoek.]

These are the projects that affect labour tenants and farmworkers in Mpumalanga, which, indeed, we would have solved before the end of June. [Applause.] Clearly, the issues we have raised indicate that we still have a long way to go to stabilise our rural communities and ensure that we build healthy relationships between farmers and farmworkers, not only for its own sake, but also for the betterment of this country.

KuBabe Mabhuza Gininda, uMntfwanenkhosi, angisho nje kutsi cha, ngisivile sikhalo sakhe. Sitawulungisa, sibuke kutsi ngabe tinkinga tikuphi nekutsi yini kungentekanga lokunye. Kepha-ke lo wekunene uyati, njengobe ngike ngachaza ekomitini, kutsi letinye tinkinga betibangwa kutsi besinelihhovisi linye kuphela le belibhekene netifundza letimbili. Futsi lenye inkinga le besinayo nase siyichaza singatsi cha, bekukhona kuntengantenga kulona labephetse ngaphambilini.

Ngiyetsemba kutsi lo wekunene lamuhla utawujabula ngobe sekukhona lelijaha, Nceba, lekungilo lese silitfumbile kutsi liyewusebenta lena eMpumalanga futsi lihlale khona, kuze kutsi nase siphindze sibuya la ngemnyaka lotako sitsi cha, imphela sisebentile sawuphendvula umbuto walo wekunene. [Tandla.]

Naletinkinga lo wekunene labuta ngato sitatibuka kuze sibone kahle kutsi ngabe yini loku lokungahambanga kahle. Nakukhona liphutsa lelenteke ngakitsi, sitalilungisa. (Translation of Siswati paragraphs follows.)

[I would like to say to the hon Mr Mabhuza Gininda, his Royal highness, that I have heard his complaint. We are going to put matters right examine problem areas and find out why those other things did not happen. However, hon member knows, as I briefed the committee on this matter, that other problems were related to the fact that there we had only one office which was responsible for the two districts. As regards the other problem we had, we would like to explain that its due to the lack of clear direction on the part of the one who was in charge previously.

I hope that the hon member will be happy today because there is a young man, Mr Nceba, whom we have appointed to work in Mpumalanga and he will be resident there so that when we come back here again next year, we should be able to say that we have indeed done our best and that we have addressed the concerns of the hon member. [Applause.] Even these other problems, the hon member is asking about will be considered carefully so that we can see where things went wrong. If on our part there are mistakes that were made, those will be rectified.]

I think it is also important to respond to what Stuart Farrow has just said. I am very happy that, indeed, he will be part of the debate. He comes with very interesting challenges. However, it is also interesting that, in this debate, we should learn from various experiences world-wide. It is also true that the communal land tenure system has been one system that has proved to secure tenure for a number of communities that otherwise would be landless. It has, therefore, not been proved scientifically that it is because of the tenure system alone that we have never had agricultural development in rural areas.

In relation to the issue we are referring to, about the commonages, particularly in Zimbabwe, I think one of the most important things he said, correctly so, was that we made an agreed choice after a lot of a debate within the communities. I think we will have to go back to that choice when we debate in the land workshop this year. This is a choice that the various communities in traditional areas and their traditional leaders will have to make, in the best interest of their communities.

I agree with the hon member on the issue of the pilot project concerning the community property association. We have indeed been supported by the Swiss government with an amount of R5 million. This is to try and pilot certain areas where some traditional leaders may want to find better ways of administration, which can then balance both the needs of tenure security and development. We will be very happy to participate in this debate.

Lastly, before I close, the issue of privatising land reform is matter that the hon Botha will have to look at. We should not forget that the essence of business in particular is about making profits. What would benefit and be in the interest of business in the land reform dispensation? We have to honestly review this matter. In my view, this remains Government’s role. It does not mean that one should not seek partnerships.

As a matter of social justice and redress, I think that it would be foolhardy of us to privatise certain elements. To what extent will it then take into account the interests of the broader community and the vulnerable who are unable to pay for that land? I think there is a need for us to revisit this matter.

Otherwise, hon members are welcome to come to a cocktail party in the Marks Building, and to another party, the launch of Agricultural Week at the Waterfront Telkom Building.

An HON MEMBER: When?

The MINISTER: Right after this debate. [Applause.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Hon members, I allowed the debate to run over time by a minute. I thought that the hon the Minister had something important to announce and I did not want to curtail that. Allow me to commend hon members on their great endurance and for their kind courtesy to the Chair.

Debate concluded.

House adjourned at 18:43. ____

            ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS

                         MONDAY, 14 MAY 2001

ANNOUNCEMENTS:

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces:

1. The Speaker and the Chairperson:

 The following papers have been tabled and are now referred to the
 relevant committees as mentioned below:


 (1)    The following papers are referred to the Portfolio Committee on
     Justice and Constitutional Development and to the Select Committee
     on Security and Constitutional Affairs:


     (a)     Report of the Judicial Service Commission for 1999-2000
          [RP 20-2001].


     (b)     Proclamation No R.17 published in the Government Gazette
          No 22067 dated 16 February 2001, Commencement of the Protected
          Disclosure Act, 2000 (Act No 26 of 2000) made in terms of
          section 11 of the Protected Disclosure Act, 2000 (Act No 26 of
          2000).


     (c)     Proclamation No R.21 published in the Government Gazette
          No 22159 dated 23 March 2001, Commencement of the Judicial
          Matters Amendment Act, 2000 (Act No 62 of 2000), made in terms
          of section 38 of the Judicial Matters Amendment Act, 2000 (Act
          No 62 of 2000).


     (d)     Proclamation No R.20 published in the Government Gazette
          No 22125 dated 9 March 2001, Commencement of the Promotion of
          Access to Information Act, 2000 (Act No 2 of 2000), made in
          terms of section 93 of the Promotion of Access to Information
          Act, 2000 (Act No 2 of 2000).

National Assembly:

1. The Speaker:

 The following papers have been tabled and are now referred to the
 relevant committees as mentioned below:


 (1)    The following papers are referred to the Portfolio Committee on
     Justice and Constitutional Development and to the Portfolio
     Committee on Foreign Affairs for consideration and report. The
     committees must confer and the Portfolio Committee on Foreign
     Affairs to report:
     (a)     Convention on the Privileges and Immunities of the United
          Nations, adopted by the General Assembly of the United Nations
          on 13 February 1946, tabled in terms of section 231(2) of the
          Constitution, 1996.


     (b)     Explanatory Memorandum to the Convention.


     (c)     Convention on the Privileges and Immunities of the
          Specialised Agencies, approved by the General Assembly of the
          United Nations on 21 November 1947, tabled in terms of section
          231(2) of the Constitution, 1996.


     (d)     Explanatory Memorandum to the Convention.


     (e)     Agreement on the Privileges and Immunities of the
          International Atomic Energy Agency, tabled in terms of section
          231(2) of the Constitution, 1996.


     (f)     Explanatory Memorandum to the Agreement.

TABLINGS National Assembly:

Papers:

1. The Speaker:

CREDA INSERT REPORT

 The following annexures relating to the above report are obtainable
 from the office of the Clerk of the Papers:


 (a)    Specific Agreement between the Government of Sweden and the
     Government of the Republic of South Africa on the Women's
     Empowerment Unit for the National and Provincial Parliaments of
     South Africa;


 (b)    Amendment to the Agreement between the Government of Sweden and
     the Government of the Republic of South Africa on the Women's
     Empowerment Unit for the National and Provincial Parliaments of
     South Africa;


 (c)    Proposed Extension of Agreement to SIDA;
 (d)    Letter for motivation for extension of Agreement to SIDA; and


 (e)    Report from the Women's Empowerment Unit to the Speakers Forum.

                        TUESDAY, 15 MAY 2001

ANNOUNCEMENTS:

National Assembly:

1. The Speaker:

 The following papers have been tabled and are now referred to the
 relevant committees as mentioned below:


 (1)    The following papers are referred to the Portfolio Committee on
     Public Works:


     (a)     Memorandum by the Minister of Public Works setting out
          particulars of the Building Programme for 2001-2002 in respect
          of Programme 2: Provision of Land and Accommodation of Vote No
          30 of the State Account [RP 63-2001].


     (b)     Progress Report of the Department of Public Works for 2000-
          2001.


 (2)    The following paper is referred to the Portfolio Committee on
     Minerals and Energy. The Report of the Auditor-General contained
     in the following report is referred to the Standing Committee on
     Public Accounts for consideration and report:


     Report and Financial Statements of the Council for Nuclear Safety
     for 1999-2000, including the Report of the Auditor-General on the
     Financial Statements for 1999-2000.


 (3)    The following paper is referred to the Portfolio Committee on
     Water Affairs and Forestry. The Report of the Auditor-General
     contained in the following report is referred to the Standing
     Committee on Public Accounts for consideration and report:


     Report and Financial Statements of the Water Research Commission
     for 1999-2000, including the Report of the Auditor-General on the
     Financial Statements for 1999.


 (4)    The following report is referred to the Portfolio Committee on
     Home Affairs:


     Report of the Department of Home Affairs for 2000 [RP 39-2001].

TABLINGS:

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces:

Papers:

1. The Minister for Agriculture and Land Affairs:

 Report of the Commission on Restitution of Land Rights for 2000-2001
 [RP 59-2001].