THURSDAY, 17 MAY 2001 __

                PROCEEDINGS OF THE NATIONALY ASSEMBLY
                                ____

The House met at 14:02.

The Speaker took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayers or meditation.

ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS - see col 000.

                          NOTICES OF MOTION

Ms N S MTSWENI: Madam Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the ANC:

That the House -

(1) notes that today is World Telecommunications Day; (2) further notes that Telkom has performed remarkably and made tremendous strides in rolling out services to rural areas, clinics and schools;

(3) believes that the development and enhancement of communications technology in South Africa and other developing countries is an important precondition for the integration of all countries into the new global order; and

(4) joins in the celebration of World Telecommunications Day.

[Applause.]

Mr M J ELLIS: Madam Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move:

That the House -

(1) notes with concern that -

   (a)  there is no Government policy for the treatment of HIV/Aids on a
       national or provincial basis outside of the Western Cape;


   (b)  at hospitals such as Johannesburg General Hospital, HIV/Aids
       patients are being turned away from the Aids Clinic which faces
       closure due to lack of support from the Gauteng Health
       Department; and


   (c)  that yesterday an Aids candle was lit by the Government in
       Parliament as a symbol of concern for those suffering from
       HIV/Aids;

(2) regards this act of lighting the candle as one of gross insensitivity because it is little more than the triumph of symbol over substance; and

(3) calls upon the Government to -

   (a)  stop playing games with the nation and begin developing a proper
       cohesive and valid policy on HIV/Aids; and


   (b)  show real concern for those who suffer from this dreaded
       disease.

[Applause.]

Dr R RABINOWITZ: [Inaudible.]

The SPEAKER: Order! Just a moment, hon member. Your microphone is not working.

Dr R RABINOWITZ: Madam Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move:

That the House -

(1) notes that -

   (a)  Alexandra township is to be the focus of an upliftment
       programme;


   (b)  R1,3 billion has been committed to this process over seven
       years; and


   (c)  the Alex stakeholders made known at a workshop in April their
       wish for genuine and meaningful consultation in the use of these
       funds;

(2) calls on the Government to take note of Alexandra residents’ views with regard to -

   (a)  income-generating projects;


   (b)  a clean environment that includes parks and clean rivers;


   (c)  access to effective health and social services;


   (d)  sustainable housing with secure tenure;


   (e)  conversion and redevelopment of hostels;


   (f)  removal of shacks from the banks of the Jukskei;


   (g)  new taxi ranks, appropriately located, and the upgrading of
       existing ranks;


   (h)  upgrading or relocation of existing informal settlements; and


   (i)  a safe, secure environment with sufficient policing and criminal
       justice; and

(3) calls on the Government to do all the above to ensure that changes in Alexandra are sustainable and are embraced by the grassroots.

Miss O R KASIENYANE: Madam Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the ANC:

That the House -

(1) notes the forecasts that South Africa will exceed the 6% inflation target for next year;

(2) believes that the sound management of the economy and the fiscus by the Reserve Bank and the Department of Finance have placed this country’s finances on the soundest footing ever;

(3) recalls the horrific inflation of over 18% under apartheid; and

(4) commends the Government on its sound fiscal policy and reminds the opposition of the economic mess that was left behind when the apartheid government was voted out of power.

[Applause.]

Dr W A ODENDAAL: Mevrou die Speaker, ek gee hiermee kennis dat ek op die volgende sittingsdag namens die Nuwe NP sal voorstel:

Dat die Huis -

(1) die bevoegdheid van die agb Dullah Omar bevraagteken om die vervoerportefeulje te behartig omdat hy die beweerde korrupsie, omkopery en bedrog binne die rekapitalisasieprogram van R20 miljard in die taxibedryf wegpraat;

(2) die Minister van Handel en Nywerheid ter verantwoording roep omdat hy nie die vervaardiger van die pendelkaartstelsel, wat na bewering die adviseur van beide die Regering en die taxibedryf met R3 miljoen probeer omkoop het, uit die taxi-heropbouprogram skors nie;

(3) die Minister van Handel en Nywerheid aanraai om onverwyld al die feitelike inligting aangaande die beweerde wanbesteding in die program van R1,3 miljoen aan belastingbetalersgeld openbaar te maak; en

 4) sy misnoeë uitspreek oor die klaarblyklike onbeholpenheid van die
    Minister van Vervoer om beter veiligheid en groter gerief vir Suid-
    Afrika se taxipassassiers te bewerkstellig. (Translation of Afrikaans notice of motion follows.)

[Dr W A ODENDAAL: Madam Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day I shall move on behalf of the New NP:

That the House -

(1) questions the competence of the hon Dullah Omar in managing the transport portfolio in view of the fact that he is explaining away the alleged corruption, bribery and fraud within the taxi industry’s R20 billion recapitalisation programme;

(2) calls the Minister of Trade and Industry to account for not suspending the manufacturer of the commuter ticket system, who allegedly tried to bribe the advisor of both the Government and the taxi industry with R3 million, from the taxi restructuring programme;

(3) advises the Minister of Trade and Industry to disclose without delay all the factual information regarding the alleged misappropriation in the programme of R1,3 million of taxpayers’ money; and

(4) expresses its dissatisfaction at the obvious ineptness of the Minister of Transport in achieving better safety and greater comfort for South Africa’s taxi passengers.]

Ms A VAN WYK: Madam Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the UDM: That the House -

(1) notes with shock and dismay the increasing rate of drug abuse amongst the youth;

(2) further notes that 50% of drug users started this habit at the tender age of 13 and that more than 31% of those who were treated in Cape Town were 15 years of age or younger;

(3) notes that drugs, such as heroin, are freely available and are used by children;

(4) calls on the Government to conduct an in-depth investigation into the exact extent of this problem, the routes used and sources of drug providers, and to respond with a comprehensive strategic plan that will address the easy accessibility of drugs and stop South Africa from being used as an access route and dumping ground for drugs; and

(5) takes the lead in the battle against the senseless loss of future generations to drug abuse.

Ms N L HLANGWANA: Madam Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the ANC:

That the House -

(1) notes the closure of five schools and the killing of nine people in Mtubatuba due to faction fighting;

(2) further notes that these fights have effectively disrupted normal teaching and learning at schools;

(3) believes that the violence denies learners their right to education as they prepare for the June examinations and causes anxiety and human suffering; and

(4) calls on the warring factions to stop the violence immediately and resolve their differences through peaceful dialogue and coexistence.

[Applause.]

Rev K R J MESHOE: Madam Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move:

That the House -

(1) notes that the SA Law Commission proposes that a scheme be set up to compensate victims of violent crime;

(2) further notes that South Africans are already heavily taxed, and do not need another special tax to pay rape victims, families of murder victims, and those disabled by crime, when in reality they cannot be compensated for their loss by a state hand-out of R2 000 or R5 000;

(3) acknowledges that the purpose of restitution, as called for over the years by the ACDP, is to make the perpetrators take financial responsibility for the pain, suffering and financial devastation incurred by the victim, and to teach them that crime does not pay; and

(4) calls on the Government to - (a) introduce legislation that will ensure that criminals, and not law-abiding citizens, are forced to compensate victims of violent crimes; and

   (b)  heed the call of victims who say they want the courts to impose
       sentences that fit the crime and a criminal justice system that
       works, rather than compensation.

[Applause.]

Mr J P I BLANCHÉ: Madam Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the FA:

That the House -

(1) discusses the report issued by the London International Institute for Strategic Studies, in which it confirms sentiments that President Mbeki is incompetent to continue in the footsteps of President Mandela, that he is failing to promote democracy in Southern Africa because he cannot take a firm stand against the undemocratic actions of President Robert Mugabe and that he has already allowed the use of the instruments of Government to intimidate the members of his own party, who might consider opposing him; and

(2) rejects the subsequent statements in support of President Mbeki that have been made by his Office, and urges his staff to advise the President rather to lead South Africa, Southern Africa and Africa as a whole out of undemocratic dictatorships.

Mr H P CHAUKE: Madam Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the ANC:

That the House -

(1) notes with shock the eviction by Swartruggens, of 184 mineworkers and their families, who are now living in one community hall without basic services in the Borolelo township in the North West province;

(2) further notes that this community has lived and worked in Mazister for more than 50 years;

(3) believes that this action is inhuman and an infringement of basic human rights; and

(4) calls on the Government and the relevant authorities to intervene to ensure that the rights of these people are restored without delay.

[Applause.]

Mrs G M BORMAN: Madam Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the DP:

That the House -

(1) notes -

   (a)  that despite passing the Local Government: Municipal Systems Act
       in this House last year, which emphasised that the Government
       was committed to ensuring public participation and creating
       conditions for citizens to participate in their municipalities,
       the Department of Provincial and Local Government did not
       consult the National House of Traditional Leaders on the White
       Paper on Traditional Leadership;


   (b)  that the issue of the roles, functions and powers of traditional
       leaders in the new municipalities has not yet been resolved; and


   (c)  that the Public Protector has become involved, because the
       alleged failure of the ANC Government to deal with the issue
       could be construed as a form of maladministration; and

(2) calls on the Government -

   (a)  to ensure that traditional leaders are consulted in any policy
       relating to traditional leadership; and


   (b)  and traditional leaders to agree on the roles, functions and
       powers that traditional leaders will have in municipalities. [Interjections.]

Mr F C FANKOMO: Madam Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the ANC:

That the House -

(1) notes that the US senate is considering imposing restrictions on the import of steel from other countries including South Africa;

(2) believes that such protectionism is an abuse of the United States’ position in the world economy, where it is able, by virtue of the size of its economy, to penetrate foreign markets; and

(3) calls on the United States to practise what it preaches and be consistent in keeping its markets open to exports from smaller economies.

[Applause.]

Dr O BALOYI: Madam Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the IFP:

That the House -

(1) notes with alarm -

   (a)  the staggering figures on abortion procured by persons under 18
       years of age recently published in the media, and that those
       figures are an indirect indication of the extent to which the
       youth of the country are sexually active;


   (b)  that sexually active persons are at high risk of being  infected
       with HIV/Aids, with the resultant consequences thereof; and


   (c)  that the largest number of this population at risk is in high
       schools, technikons and universities;

(2) challenges all educational structures as well as youth structures to urgently address the situation and come up with strategies that will ensure that the youth of the country survive in order that they can become a replacement human resource of the future; and

(3) pleads that these strategies should address the physical, emotional, spiritual, social and security needs of the youth.

Mr G D MKONO: Madam Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the UDM:

That the House -

(1) notes the recently expressed need to the value of R38 billion for basic services as a national indicator of the level of poverty in our country;

(2) expresses its concern at the escalating rate of the disparity between rich and poor, especially the lack of basic services for the elderly with regard to pension, health and food needs;

(3) further notes that the amount allocated may not be adequate in the bigger schemes of society;

(4) expresses its concern that the Government needs R38 billion but is only able to spend R2,6 billion; and

(5) calls on the Minister for Provincial and Local Government to further empower local councillors so that they are equipped to adequately reduce debt-collecting periods and improve basic services to all South African citizens.

Dr R T RHODA: Madam Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the New NP:

That the House -

(1) notes with shock that -

   (a)  the gang war raging across the Cape Flats has claimed at least
       103 lives since the beginning of this year; and


   (b)  official figures indicate that more than 100 000 young people
       are members of gangs and this figure is growing every day;

(2) urges all persons involved in gang activities and those who are on the verge of joining gangs to cease their activities and rather expend their energies in helping to build up this country;

(3) calls on education leaders, religious leaders, business leaders, sports leaders, celebrities and community leaders in the Western Cape to become actively involved in the fight against the increasing problem of organised gangsterism; and

(4) believes that if we do not act now, organised gangsterism will become uncontrollable and will lead to the total disintegration of community structures.

[Interjections.]

                   DR BEYERS NAUDE'S 85TH BIRTHDAY

                         (Draft Resolution) Mr M T GONIWE: Madam Speaker, on behalf of the Chief Whip of the Majority Party, I move without notice:

That the House -

(1) notes that Dr Beyers Naudé, the great fighter for justice and equality, recently turned 85;

(2) further notes that Dr Naudé has been suffering ill health;

(3) acknowledges the role played by him in the fight for freedom, equality and justice for all South Africans; and

(4) wishes him a happy birthday and a speedy recovery.

Agreed to.

                         APPROPRIATION BILL

Debate on Vote No 9 - Public Service and Administration, Vote No 10 - Public Service Commission and Vote No 11 - SA Management Development Institute: The MINISTER FOR THE PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION: Madam Speaker, members of this House and those who have joined us to discuss this important Vote, which is one that calls for change for action and action for change in the Public Service.

I would like to state upfront that some members of the House raised some concerns when they looked at the time of the Vote, asking me whether I was going to beat Fidel Castro in terms of speaking time. [Interjections.] I would like to tell my colleagues that the red colour is not about beating Fidel Castro, but that I am here today to actually represent the Votes of the Department of the Public Service and Administration, the Public Service Commission, the SA Management Development Institute and the State Information Technology Agency.

This Vote is critical in terms of being the machinery that should ensure that services are delivered by Government employees, and that these services, to a large extent, form the last line of defence for the majority of our people against poverty, hunger, disease and crime, and which, for many, constitute the only the real opportunity for growth and development. To that extent, educators or teachers should be an example to our children by building on each child’s strength, helping them to achieve their full potential and maximising their capacity to meet the demands and challenges of today’s world. Our Police Service should aim at achieving the trust and respect of the public, so that all our people may turn to them with confidence for protection when threatened.

The Public Service needs to learn to work in a way that embodies our democratic ideals. They should see our people, the South African people, as partners in delivery, not as the enemy, not as competition, and not as passive recipients. Our whole approach is one of ensuring that we try to build a national democratic, nonracial and nonsexist state. And to make this happen, we need to put certain things in place. Without the initiative of our people on our side, we will not be able to make progress in the battle against poverty and deprivation, nor will we succeed in changing the Public Service from a self-serving, self-indulging, unreformed creature to a powerful machine committed to removing the injustices of our past, in a manner that befits the kind of society we need to create.

After seven years in Government, we have learned that the Public Service does not change easily. And this, of course, is a lesson that all countries actively involved in public service transformation are deeply conscious of. This is because institutional change requires massive investment in transforming systems, culture and the operational environment, coupled with systemic changes in values and behaviour of public servants. The sheer scale of the Public Service and its traditions embedded over centuries make the change process more complex and involved.

There is a need for us to look today at what is going to make this change happen, what the characteristics are that distinguish those who succeed at change from those who fail. I want to say today that dogged determination and perseverance are going to be the characteristics that distinguish those who are determined to succeed from those who fail. It is only those who stick to the bigger game plan and the agreed strategy, those who take time to do the necessary preparation in terms of the more mundane, and those who find ways of working their way through or around obstacles, that will, over a period of time, reap benefits.

My hon colleagues in this House are part of those who must make sure that they are willing to persevere and that the mundane happens. Hon members should ensure that we do not constantly change strategy and keep on changing direction and, in instances, lose sight of the final outcome, because that will ensure that we do not reach the final destination required of the Public Service by our people. We need to keep the perspective that we will only see the full benefits of what we have been doing over the past seven years in 10 to 15 years’ time.

In the meantime we will have to develop the wisdom to resist the temptation to resort to short cuts, quick fixes and quick wins in order to have demonstrable wins immediately, and rather develop the wisdom on what proves to be unsustainable in the long term. Given the complexities and the long- term nature of Public Service transformation, we need to ensure that the change process is responsive to the demands of people-centered development and that the energy for it is sustained for the long haul. It is imperative that the change process itself is not restricted to the bureaucrats.

Die proses moet deur ons mense ingelig word. Ons moet toesien dat ons mense staatsamptenare die energie en aanmoediging gee om seker te maak dat die amptenary werklik verander. Dit lê in die hande van die mense van ons land. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraph follows.)

[The process must be informed by our people. We must see to it that our people give public servants the energy and encouragement to make sure that the bureaucracy really changes. It is in the hands of the people of our country.]

It is therefore abundantly clear that as a society we are seeking more and better services, delivered in a more accountable, transparent and approachable manner. We can only do this through more innovative means of service delivery. We can only do this when the inclination of public servants is to continue to perform in a manner that is appropriate to building a nonracial, nonsexist and developmental Public Service. That is why greater societal participation is required.

I said earlier that we have coined a catch phrase based on the President’s state of the nation address, namely ``action for change, change for action’’. Hon members all have a mouse pad that captures what action for change means, and should mean, to the Public Service and broader society. I hope, as the Minister of Minerals and Energy said, that this is not about us wanting to become mice, but about us using information technology to be on line, more accessible and giving e-governance a real face.

Last year I touched on various priorities facing the Public Service, and I think today we can take stock. We have identified the period 2000 to 2003 as a period of consolidation, during which departments that are responsible for policy implementation should ensure that they inculcate this in their work processes, in order to make this happen in a real sense.

We believe that the bulk of the policy work has put in place the major transformational changes required in terms of the vision by this Public Service. That has been done. We now need to ensure that the machinery is so structured and poised to make things happen. It is about ensuring that we are operationalising and implementing, that we are working at change, and that we are always going to endeavour to improve to work better, smarter and faster in order to achieve results. During this reporting period, it is necessary to reflect that the team that is sitting here, ie the DPSA led by Robinson Ramaite; the Office of the Public Service Commission, led by Mpumi Skosana; Seta, led by the MD, Collin van Schalkwyk, under the chairpersonship of Sello Rasethaba; and the Management Development Institute, headed by Prof Job Mokgoro, has, over the period, grappled and engaged with institutional change and transformation processes.

They not only have to facilitate the overall transformation of the entire system, but they themselves have had to lead internal restructuring processes, focus and look at aims and objectives anew, adjust staffing according to priority requirements and critically review work processes. All of these were done with the aim of ensuring that we practise what we preach and that we become a model organisation capable of leading and facilitating change.

I am happy to report today that we have moved to a phase where the bulk of our attention can be applied to issues external to these organisations. We can, therefore, give more attention to the daunting challenge of transforming the Public Service. To this extent, we say that we serve the people who serve the people, hence I would like to reflect now on the changing profile of the Public Service, which will serve as a vivid indicator of Public Service transformation. I shall reflect on only a few aspects of it. I would like to say that certain aspects of our profile serve as an early warning system by highlighting potential challenges that will have the impact on motivation, expertise and efficacy of the workforce and management, which will, eventually, impact on the ability of Government to deliver against its policy objectives.

So, as of December 2000, the size of the Public Service stood at just around a million employees - 23 607 less than the previous year. Seventy- one per cent of public servants are in provinces, compared to 29% in national Government. Fifty-one per cent are women and 49% are men. [Applause.] However, the overwhelming majority of women of all race groups are found in the lower to middle salary band, bands 3 to 8. Women make up only 20% of all managerial level appointments. Only 0,2% of employees are people with disabilities, a fraction of the total and far short of the 2% target that we set ourselves. So, one can see the kind of issues that we are grappling with, and that Labour leads as one of the core regulatory departments. Overall, the profile of the Public Service has not changed much during

1. The downward change in numbers, personnel numbers, reflects a greater consciousness amongst managers, however, to match staffing to service delivery requirements. I do want to say, returning to the gender profile, that we need to ensure that we take this forward a lot more proactively. And to that extent, Samdi has identified the need to develop a curriculum that will specifically aid the fast-tracking of women in management.

A further issue to note is that the management cadre of the SA Public Service remains very small. A total of 0,4% of the Public Service constitutes management. If compared to a very broad base of production- level skilled workers and lower skilled workers, especially in the infrastructure and economic sectors, one would agree that this figure is very low.

I would like to say that speaking comparatively, this profile is very different from that of countries that were regarded, and have more recently been regarded, as success stories in public management, such as Malaysia, and probably Singapore if one wants to make that reference. In these instances professional and senior management cadres are pushing the 60% mark compared to the production-skilled, the lower-skilled level. So it constitutes an upside-down pyramid if compared with the South African Public Service.

To aggravate the managerial situation even further, the distribution of senior managers is skewed towards national departments. And for provincial departments, that is at the coalface of service delivery, only 40% of the 0,4% constitutes the managerial component.

I think another point to make this afternoon is the fact that we have traditionally looked at the Public Service in a very narrow way. We saw it as consisting of national and provincial departments, an issue that has concerned a number of us. And I think that as we look at this issue, we accept that we had excluded from the concept of Public Service the third tier of Government, that is local government, as well as public entities such as parastatals.

Increasingly, it is becoming clear that if we want to understand service delivery, if we want to ensure that it is improved, then we have to look at the very complex networks of service delivery institutions. And the complexity in this range of organisations is fed, amongst other things, through an explosion in the numbers of public entities.

According to the Public Finance Management Act, the public entities listed total 201. A recent study conducted by us concluded that there are more than 350 public entities, and this number includes subsidiary institutions that are under the recognised control of public entities. They employ close to 290 000 staff members, nearly a quarter of the current Public Service. The demographic profile of the staffing in these institutions has not been monitored in any central way. So we actually feel that we need to look at that.

We think that, increasingly, partnership between the Government and the 100 000-odd Public Service organisations that exist also constitute an important part of the service delivery web that we excluding in our current conceptualisation of the profile of the Public Service, and we need to look at that. Yes, one of our challenges for the next financial year is to develop a better understanding of these partners in service delivery: What their capacity is and how to optimise the relationship between the Public Service and them.

DPSA has identified a project to start mapping out the service delivery change. The challenge in this regard, particularly when we look at the harmony of public entities and the Public Service proper, is to manage the paradox between agency autonomy and the standardisation of better efficiency and co-ordination.

I note that some of our labour partners are here with us in the Chamber. I would like to welcome these comrades, who are a major part of the transformation process. They showed this in January this year when together we held a successful Jobs Summit. For the first time we publicly stated that we needed to ensure that the Public Service is restructured to ensure better and more effective service delivery. Furthermore, we said that we needed to ensure that basic services reached our people. We again said that together we should facilitate the social transformation that is required.

We can claim that we have moved beyond a narrow focus on negotiations and issues around the conditions of service. We have and are discussing issues related to the restructuring of the Public Service within the broader economic and social framework. We are looking at specific issues that organised labour put on the Public Service Co-ordinating Bargaining Council agenda, which, amongst others, included the issue of HIV/Aids and measures to efficiently extend service delivery to our people.

The outcome was a remarkable framework agreement. It has set the stage for further constructive discussions between Government as the employer and the employee parties on the issues of transformation and restructuring of the Public Service. So in addition to the need to ensure that personnel expenditure does not crowd out investment expenditure, we have argued for the development of a labour relations framework suitable for the Public Service sector, underpinned by the need to match personnel deployment with service delivery requirements.

Although retrenchments may in some instances be inevitable in certain sections, the emphasis now is on the sustainable management of the wage bill through medium-term human resource and expenditure planning. This is encouraged by the agreement of the Jobs Summit and a renewed sense of partnership. We want to move towards a three-year wage agreement that is in line with the Medium-Term Expenditure Framework. We need to see how we could do this together.

I would like to say that within the Ministry of the Public Service and Administration, as part of our thrust maintaining that we serve people who serve people, we are aware and engaged in the depths of the complexity of poverty in our country and how it impacts on public servants personally and in terms of services required from them. We see the whole issue of poverty and HIV as being interconnected. As a result, we will be producing a comprehensive tool for managing the issue of HIV/Aids. We will look at developing this tool, to have the knowledge and skill for the effective management of the impact of the pandemic.

The tool will include a workplace policy and programme framework, together with minimum standards that will serve as an implementation guideline. The framework will ensure a measure of consistency in addressing HIV/Aids within Public Service workplaces and will, at the same time, provide a guide for the necessary development of sector and situation specific- programmes. Direct work on the new framework and minimum standards has commenced this month, and will be taken forward by a special technical task team that has been set up for this purpose. A draft will be ready for circulation by the end of 2001, and, currently, the specialised team is in the PSCBC as well.

Let me go on to our support of departments. I would like to say that although we are largely responsible for policy-making and monitoring, as well as evaluating policy implementation, we are also committed to supporting the development of institutional capacity for service delivery. Where feasible, the various components - the teams here, and they are solid teams - co-operate on such ventures, each handling the issue from their particular mandate.

One such venture was the Tiro project in the Department of Home Affairs, a project on which we worked with the management of that department to reposition it to work towards improved services to the public in line with Batho Pele principles. The joint team was dedicated to ensuring that an appropriate change-management process was on track. We will continue supporting that department in that work.

At national level, we also worked with departments such as Public Works, Justice, Welfare, and Correctional Services. Our work with the Public Works department is linked to efforts at looking at transforming the current organisation into a reputable and effective property management agency, details that were presented by Minister Stella Sigcau when she presented her Vote to this House last week. National departments are, however, but one of our focus areas of intervention.

Provinces, and particularly service delivery institutions, have become increasingly important in our work. The intervention programming in this regard has been the integrated provincial support programme, which is now in its second year. The focus has been on a series of provinces. I can say today with confidence that our greatest success has been in the Northern Province, focusing particularly on restructuring road construction and maintenance services of the Department of Public Works in this province. This showed a way for us to handle practically restructuring exercises in a creative and responsible manner, and also proved the need for a close interface with labour in a manner that was and is constructive in this process. The province is also far advanced with housing, under a single roof, a range of Government services - the so-called one-stop information centre idea.

We have also recently seen a citizens’ report from the province. This report says that visible improvements have become noticeable in terms of the times that service delivery institutions are actually open and functioning, when staff are on duty, and children are actually more in classrooms than they used to be, to mention but a few things. I think we should see these as some of the small achievements that are coming about.

Let me talk about the Public Service Commission. The Public Service Commission has undertaken evaluations of major Government programmes in order to contribute towards the improvement of performance and service delivery. There is still a long road to travel, and we are only the beginning. Some of these reports are the Home Affairs, Batho Pele and management audit investigations; secondly, the survey of compliance with Batho Pele policy; thirdly, a policy guide on annual reporting; and, finally, an investigation into land administration, geographic information systems and fleet management in the Eastern Cape. I would like to request my colleagues to study those documents. When asked about this, they must draw on resources, on work that has been done. In terms of this work that has been done, the OPSC is following it up through an active programme of providing support where negative feedback has been given. An evaluation programme will be in place next year, which will also include the housing and land reform programmes. These evaluations are conducted against set objectives and the extent to which they have been attained.

Through their work we see a range of issues and what we would want to argue for is that sustained attention be given to provinces in particular, where we should look at a focus that will be on those institutions and on those organisations directly interfacing with the public. We want to look at combining top-down and bottom-up strategies in service delivery improvement that, we believe, will best be achieved over the next period.

I want to reflect on management capacity. I want to start by saying - because maybe some members are falling asleep at this point - that Napoleon reasoned once that there are no bad regiments, only bad colonels. Someone else remarked that our experience of bottlenecks is that they are always at the top. I think this reflects on some of the problems that we may and do have with management, hence our introduction of the senior management service.

The machinery of Government depends on the commitment and capacity of senior managers for its effectiveness. As a result, these managers should be the embodiment of the spirit of service delivery. They must be above reproach and they should be absolutely committed to the ideals of a nonracial, nonsexist, developmental state. As a result, we need to ensure - and this is a challenge to the executive at all levels - that we are appointing the right people to the senior management service at the director-general level and that they, in turn, ensure that the SMS is appropriately skilled.

This will be backed by proactive interventions that will be done and assisted by competency tests by us, ensuring that the people we put in place do not only have the right experience, but that they also, on an ongoing basis, develop their skills. Hence, Samdi has positioned itself strongly to facilitate management training of a quality that compares favourably with the best benchmarks available. We have seen, since 2000, through a showcase programme called the Strategic Management Leadership Development Programme, a focus on developing directors-general and senior managers at a strategic level.

Let me move on to information technology and e-government. This reflects on the work of Sita, the State Information Technology Agency. Sita has been confronted with several challenges, which include the integration of its original three founding departments, the integration of all information technology in Government and the need to increase the speed at which information technology is delivered, as well as the maintenance of Government’s IT skills.

Hence, the e-government strategy that has been identified clearly says that the performance required by Sita is one in which the ``public service speaks’’, one that looks at the interoperatability or, rather, the ability of Government systems to talk to one another. This is so that when the Minister of Land Affairs uses a mouse pad and wants to access human resource information about her staff she can do so, as can any other Minister, or even MEC, in Government. And, that is possible right now. We also want to have a situation in which Government departments are able to share information, so that it becomes possible to register births in hospitals, or even to detect fraud in welfare, through the sharing of databases between the SA Police Service and the welfare system. We would not like to have a situation which many of our people have to stand in different queues to provide the same information over and over again.

The State Information Technology Agency should ensure that when information is developed once, it can be used in other instances. They should also eliminate unnecessary duplication because currently in today’s international telecommunications, we are being reminded that there are 12 different telecommunications infrastructures, which cost us as Government huge amounts of money to maintain.

We need to ensure that we use economies of scale as leverage. The hon Langa Zitha always likes to ask: ``What are the trade-offs? How do we use our resources better? How do we ensure that we make the best use of the resources that we have? By purchasing IT on behalf of Government as a whole, Sita will be able to reduce costs and offer quality services by negotiating from a position of strength. For all these things to happen, we need a movement for change. The President stated this, and said earlier this year that we should look at a situation in which public servants can feel more passionate about the change required in this Government within this machinery. They must take pride in what they are doing and feel deeply ashamed if they fail in their task. If we could achieve a situation in which public servants feel that they are an appreciated part of that, a body of people that wins the battle against poverty, crime, disease and illiteracy, we would have gone one step further on this road.

If we could achieve a situation in which the the community’s sense of self does not allow any service that is second best and can speak out against bad service, we would have gone one step further on this road. If we could achieve a situation in which negative feedback is seen as an opportunity to learn and improve, we would be somewhere on this road.

Therefore let us look at ways in which we can start taking advantage of our rich combination of skills and understanding by documenting and sharing our experiences. That is why we are saying that the Public Service must be transformed into a learning organisation. And hence we will be launching, in July this year, a centre for Public Service innovation which will offer a great opportunity for sharing ideas. I encourage all those with good ideas on Public Service improvement please to watch this space, follow the press and link up with us on the website, in order to respond for calls of interest that will be published soon, because Batho Pele remains our single most important campaign to achieve the necessary transformation of the Public Service.

From 22 June we will ensure that we have a proactive process in looking at a closer interface, not only between the executive and the Public Service, but also generally between, I hope, Parliament and the Public Service. Why 22 June? Because 22 June is Africa Public Service Day, since we are also saying that we must turn around this important machinery on the African continent. But what we would like from the Public Service and executive members is an affirmation of public servants who are doing well. Let us identify those who deliver a good service and commend them.

Perhaps we should develop the Isithwalandwe award in the Public Service, to recognise those who are in the front line of public service delivery and to acknowledge them. However, we must also give a brickbat to those who do not deliver services. We need to ensure that they are dealt with appropriately.

Therefore capacity-building or ability to perform a job is a central factor in getting results and achieving job satisfaction. One measure we can use to understand whether the institution has adequate capacity to execute its task - and I would like hon members to listen closely - is to determine the extent to which such an institution is dependent on external consultants to undertake tasks that are core to its mission.

Models that attempt to establish institutional capacity or the ability of governments to succeed quite often look at the degree to which consultants are engaged, either to perform specialist jobs, or, more often than not, to perform regular jobs of public servants who are just not capable of doing this themselves. We have just completed a study on this. Through this study we have confirmed that in a sample drawn from 19 departments over two years 1998-99 and 1999-2000 - there are 952 consultant appointments.

Consultants cost the state about R1,6 billion in the 1999-2000 financial year. When one looks at that, and not withstanding the fact that consultants are costing that significant amount and that the supplementing of Public Service capacity through the appointment of consultants has been a growing trend, no systematic monitoring has taken place. That intervention has taken place as per decision of the executive, because we looked at whether consultants are actually lending and adding original value.

I must say today that from the report of the study done, we have found that there was not enough sharing across various units in the Public Service through knowledge management networks of the consultants’ activities. Some of the work that could easily have been transferred had not been transferred. Instead, it had been recommissioned.

Very little capacity-building and skills transfer have taken place. To a large degree, it again points back to the bottleneck - the colonels. That is why we are saying that something needs to be done, and we have identified some of the measures. We will be developing operational guidelines to ensure that there is an improved management of consultants, and systematic auditing and monitoring of professional service expenditure of departments.

We will ensure that there is documenting and sharing of knowledge, of where consultancy studies have been undertaken, and we will ensure that reports are shared across Government departments. This will include the sharing of services and products of consultants in the areas of human resource management, training, education and the development of human resources.

There is a lot more I can say about this, but on this particular point, I would like to end by saying that the consultancy study and the study that was conducted on behalf of the DPSA by the HSRC on scarce skills in the Public Service has confirmed our concern about the shortage of skills in IT, financial management and project management. Again, a systematic intervention was undertaken around that.

I have already outlined some of the domestic initiatives of Samdi. But I think it is necessary to share with this House today that Samdi is beginning to play a more active role in our region - the Southern African region and the African region. Only last week Samdi was part of a very successful pilot initiative in which a newly developed leadership programme of senior management was piloted by the Commonwealth. Samdi played a key role in the curriculum development process and will be instrumental in the facilitation of course content. This programme will be extended to Uganda, Barbados, Sri Lanka and other developing countries within the Commonwealth fold.

We have been able to develop something, and we are able to share it. I think that as I draw to a close, I should talk about the anticorruption programme and I will come back to it in my closing remarks. What I want to say is that the anticorruption forum will be launched in June. This forum, clearly, is a partnership that in outlook should not be limited nationally, but we are looking at it being extended beyond our borders to include regional and international co-operation.

Let me raise two further aspects around the anticorruption initiative. I think that we need to apply our minds on how successful we have been in the implementation of the various initiatives within Government. We, firstly, need to ask ourselves whether some of the frameworks that we are expecting managers to operate in are drawing an adequate distinction between the various levels of corrupt behaviour and avenues to follow for each category. If we are to provide more administrative mechanisms to deal with smaller cases of corruption, will that not allow us to stamp out corrupt behaviour when it starts and allow that to happen with less of an effort from the side of a manager than to try and build up a criminal case for normal intervention.

This is the issue that we are looking at. We are also looking at getting better systematic evidence and deeper analysis of trends in the area of Public Service corruption specifically, and societal corruption in general. The academic community and civil society research organisations have a role to play in order to shift the debate and understanding around Public Service corruption beyond the anecdotal level, because we tend to focus on the anecdotal too much and, of course, the headline level which is supplied by the popular media. We feel that this will contribute greatly to the watchdog partnering role that we anticipate and as a successful strategy to deal with Public Service corruption issues.

I want to conclude by saying that the programme that I have outlined is far- reaching. I believe that together we can make it happen between the spheres of political, social, economic and religious life, and society in general. We have what it takes to realise our societal dreams. We can only do this if we take action to induce change in the Public Service.

Being a daughter from the African soil, I want to leave an African proverb with the members as an aspiration and for further thought: one piece of wood alone does not keep a fire alight. The key question is: Are members going to contribute to feeding that fire whilst the Minister of Minerals and Energy replaces that with coal, solar energy and so on? Are members going to contribute to that? What role are members playing to ensure that we do change, because it is not spectators that are going to make a difference but it is active participants. [Applause.]

Mr N P NHLEKO: Madam Speaker, comrades and colleagues, in the last two weeks Parliament has been treated to an account on service delivery. The Votes on Agriculture, Water Affairs and Forestry, Land Affairs and other departments, which were debated in the previous week, have demonstrated how the ANC Government is realising its objective in accelerating service delivery to change people’s lives.

This service delivery we evaluated here, as Parliament, is carried out and performed by public servants and, therefore, that bears testimony to the commitment and loyalty of our public servants. We are transforming our Public Service in terms of representivity and style of management. This is an orientation that our Public Service is taking towards accelerating service delivery.

In 1994 we inherited a fragmented Public Service, and it was not only fragmented but its orientation was also wrong. In the years between 1994 and 1999, we have managed to make our civil service representative of South Africa in terms of its make-up and culture. More importantly, we have managed to refocus it from apartheid to democracy. The year 1999 saw the ANC Government with a renewed electoral mandate to accelerate service delivery, which signified a shift from policy development to policy implementation.

Our Government, through the Public Service, realises that democracy, good governance and economic development can only be given meaningful expression through sound Public Service policies. It is for this reason that Batho Pele became Government policy, meeting service delivery targets. However, there is an urgent need to sharpen Batho Pele in order for it to become an instrument of public engagement, in other words, South African citizens must be able to use Batho Pele as a tool with which they engage their democratic Government on service delivery and the character which it takes. The Batho Pele service delivery improvement policy investigates the restructuring of the Public Service and develops innovative service delivery techniques. We hope this will assist in developing public participation in service delivery.

Through the Public Service Co-ordinating Bargaining Council, Government and labour agreed to Public Service regulations in 1999, the main aim of the regulations being to ensure that managers and heads of departments in the Public Service have greater control over their resources and personnel. Further, this ensures that managers are accountable for their activities. We are happy to note that labour relations have stabilised in the Public Service. In fact, labour and Government must be congratulated on having gone a step further to deal with matters concerning restructuring and transformation. We saw this effort culminating in the Jobs Summit Framework Agreement, entered into Pietersburg on 29 to 31, January 2001.

To meet the political objectives of a democratic state, it is necessary that interventions are made to strengthen our instruments of service delivery, in this case, our Public Service management. We are happy to note the amount of progress Samdi is making in training our managers to meet the new challenge. However, there is an urgent need to develop an activist orientation among public servants so that their work is seen as nothing but serving the South African public with dedication, diligence and a sense of duty. This will help to dispel the notion or perception that being a public servant is about a personal profession or an individual concern.

The Portfolio Committee on Public Service and Administration has witnessed training in progress for managers by Samdi, the focus being management and leadership and this being part of the Presidential Strategic Leadership Development Programme. We also welcome the establishment of the public- sector education and training authorities in terms of the Skills Development Act of 1998. This will make sure that we have skilled public servants through human resource development programmes.

The information technology in the Public Service is co-ordinated by the State Information Technology Agency and it is interesting to note that the transformation of the South African Public Service is actually multidimensional. Globalisation has forced governments around the world to investigate new ways of enhancing service delivery and the manner in which it has to be responsive to the citizenry.

Whilst our Public Service is transforming from the apartheid legacy, it is also on a par with the rest of the world. In fact, some countries, such as the United Kingdom, think that South Africa presents itself as the best model for transformation of the Public Service. We welcome the direction that the State Information Technology Agency is taking, and that is an emphasis on strengthening the information technology sector for purposes of service delivery. Comrade Richard Sikakane will speak in detail on this particular point.

We are also witnessing an increased level of political consciousness on the part of public servants and some communities in defending their democratic Government and state. A few examples come to mind in this regard. In the Eastern Cape, eNgcobo, the community took action against the misuse of Government property in one particular hospital, and members of Nehawu in Kokstad staged a sit-in to protest against alleged corrupt activities by officials. This also concerned the alleged misuse of Government vehicles. We should encourage the principle of public and labour participation in the transformation process, and it must be seen as an essential ingredient in transforming our Public Service.

The Public Service Commission continues to play a significant role in the fight against corruption. In fact, the Public Service Commission has really demonstrated that it is the standard-bearer in the fight against corruption. The Public Service Commission monitors, investigates, evaluates and advises on strategic Public Service issues. In the period under review, the Public Service Commission made critical interventions in fulfilling its constitutional mandate, and has been engaging continuously with the portfolio committee and departments on policy issues.

We also want to point out that corruption in some Government structures has been exposed and investigated by the Public Service Commission, and has not been stumbled upon by anybody. These investigations - as is the case with those in the Department of Correctional Services’ personnel salary system, Persal, and other departments - have not been merely about investigations, but have rather been an institution-building exercise to strengthen our democracy.

The DPSA budget, which incorporates the State Information Technology Agency, is expected to increase by an average of 11% between 2003 and 2004. This increase is informed by ongoing policy reforms; the establishment of the Public Sector Education Training Authorities, which are expected to cost between R5 and R6 million by 2003-04; projects to facilitate service delivery, enabling the DPSA to develop service delivery indicators, and lastly the question around transfers that amount to R26,6 million to Sita. These increases should be understood in the context of the DPSA undergoing transformation, but, more importantly, enabling the DPSA to make strategic policy interventions. Lastly, these increases in the budget demonstrate the commitment of our Government to accelerating service delivery.

The Public Service is about people. The duty and obligation we have, as the ANC Government, is to improve the living conditions of our people. Therefore, accelerating service delivery is the duty that we have to carry out. In this approach we must convert our public servants into activists for the realisation of our goals.

Service delivery must also deal effectively with narrowing the infrastructure gap between rural and urban areas. In our quest for accelerated service delivery, we must start investigating ways and means by which we co-ordinate and integrate local government into the Public Service. To this end we welcome the establishment of the Government’s governance and administration cluster system, as we hope this will foster co-ordination in Government.

Lastly, we would like to congratulate the Minister, her department, the director-general, Samdi, the chairperson and Director-General of the Public Service Commission, the chairperson of Sita and the Director-General of the Department of the Public Service and Administration for a job well done. There are many challenges that lie ahead in the process of transforming our Public Service and the country. We support this Vote. Mr M WATERS: Madam Speaker, hon Minister and members, today I focus, as the DA does in the Western Cape every day, on cutting the red tape in the Public Service, which is strangling delivery to all the people of this country. The red tape I am speaking about is not only confined to describing a bureaucracy that is bloated, corrupt, obsessed with race, politicised, lacking a policy direction and tainted by inexcusable nonaction or noninsistence on delivery by the Cabinet and the ruling party at large. [Interjections.]

Time and time again Madam Speaker has called on this House to lead by example. It seems that this plea has fallen on deaf ears when it applies to the ANC. There can be no clearer call for members of the ruling party, especially its Cabinet members, to set an example than when it comes to the Public Service. But what kind of example is the ruling party’s Chief Whip setting? On the Top 10, we understand hon members’ current favourite song is O Lord, won’t you buy me a Mercedes Benz. [Interjections.] [Laughter.]

I am unable to delve into the many many other examples, save to say we all remember the driving licence scandal, Sarafina and the peanut butter sandwiches. This Government will never be able to rid itself of corruption in the Public Service, while it continues to turn a blind eye to its own party ranks. Let me remind hon members that on 4 May 1999, on the election trail, the then Deputy President, Thabo Mbeki, promised that fighting crime and corruption would be the key focus of his presidency. He said:

The aims of the Government with regard to social transformation will not be jeopardised by those intent on stealing from the public.

Another broken promise, because two years and two anticorruption summits later, corruption is spreading as fast as HIV/Aids.

Corruption is not merely bad because we in the DA say it is: It is bad because in reality it equals increasing nondelivery, and nondelivery in my book means our children living in the streets in the heart of winter, starving and addicted to dangerous substances.

An HON MEMBER: What do you know?

Mr M WATERS: I know a lot more than you.

Nondelivery means millions of our people living in filth without access to clean water or electricity. [Interjections.] Nondelivery means that millions of South Africans with HIV are continuing to suffer and die on a daily basis. [Interjections.]

The ANC’s tolerance of corruption, both inside and outside the party, is one of the core reasons for nondelivery. [Interjections.] As much as corruption prevents delivery, the obsession with race makes delivery an absolute nonstarter to begin with. [Interjections.] My constituents in Phomolong, in Gauteng, do not give a hoot whether their water and electricity are delivered by males, females, whites, blacks, coloureds, Indians, homosexuals or heterosexuals. [Interjections.]

I can tell hon members what they think, because my party, the DA, is actually in the communities, working on the ground. [Interjections.] We are not in Cuba, and we are not in Libya, propping up authoritarian regimes. [Interjections.] This is what they are saying to me: Where is my water? Where is my electricity? [Interjections.] Where are the houses? Where are the jobs, jobs, jobs? [Interjections.] Where is President Mbeki? [Interjections.] Where is the ANC? [Interjections.]

The DA agrees that the Public Service has to represent all South Africans, which it did not do in the past. [Interjections.] The inequalities must be addressed, but never to the detriment of delivery. [Interjections.] While it must be the aim of the Government to serve the residents of Phomolong by a representative Public Service, let us just start by getting them served in the first place. [Interjections.]

In using the race card as an excuse for nondelivery, the ANC has got itself into a complicated administrative mess. The ANC has proved unable to develop an environment in which jobs are created, so it has taken the easiest route, namely giving away jobs in the Public Service willy-nilly. I want to tell the Minister that it will be harder, but far more beneficial, to take the time and the money to develop training programmes in skills development for people who had previously been robbed of these opportunities.

The result of this failure has been that unskilled people have been thrust into positions for which they are not equipped, through no fault of their own. This has happened on a large scale, and therefore nondelivery is happening on a large scale. In fact, the ANC knows very little about real empowerment, which is not about getting a salary cheque for a job badly done, but rather in the pride and the self-respect that comes with the genuine qualification and knowledge gained. [Interjections.] That will clamp down on the hon the Minister’s consultant costs.

It seems that the ANC Government is using the old regime as its benchmark for running the country. It certainly is, in the case of the continued politicisation of the Public Service. President Mbeki has appointed or transferred no fewer than 25 party hacks to various director-general or equivalent posts, the bulk being in the first six months of his presidency. [Interjections.]

The centralised appointments to top positions in the Public Service are causing chaos in certain departments, which is resulting in nondelivery. A case in point is the Department of Home Affairs where the relationship between the Minister and his director-general has deteriorated to such an extent that legislation cannot be processed, such as the immigration Bill. [Interjections.]

One of the biggest challenges that faces our public servants is the lack of direction and lack of motivation by the Ministers here. Paying noncompetitive wages, tolerating ineffectiveness and laziness, formulating policies which give preference to Cubans instead of South African doctors and teachers, is not the way to get the Public Service working. [Interjections.]

However, the biggest betrayal of the public and the Public Service’s trust is the unforgivable nondelivery on the part of the ANC. The current Minister for the Public Service and Administration is one of the most shocking examples. In her capacity as the Minister of Welfare she failed to spend R353 million or 79% of her budget in one year, while South Africans across the spectrum suffered the consequences. Does the hon Minister realise what a difference that money can make? I can tell her that she could have provided 267 424 child grants annually, or she could have built over 22 000 houses with that money. [Interjections.] In any true democracy the Minister would have had to resign over that failure. [Interjections.] Of course the ANC, continuing with its tradition of rewarding incompetence, promoted the hon the Minister to be the head of the entire Public Service - the person presently in charge of the overall delivery of this Government.

As everyone knows, the DA is a party which offers practical and workable solutions. [Interjections.] The DA believes that to unleash the potential within the Public Service, we need to modernise and free the Public Service so that it can build on its strengths to innovate and draw on best practices.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order! Is that a point of order?

Mr L M KGWELE: Madam Speaker, yes, I want to find out whether the hon Waters can take a question?

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Would you like to take a question, hon member?

Mr M WATERS: Madam Speaker, I will take it at the end of my speech, if I have the time.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: He says he will take it at the end of his speech. [Interjections.]

Mr M WATERS: Madam Speaker, we need to build on the strengths, innovate and draw on best practices from throughout the world.

Let me mention a few solutions from the DA’s side on modernising the Public Service. [Interjections.] First and foremost, members of Parliament must be held accountable in terms of a strong code of ethics enforced by strong mechanisms which do not adhere to party lines. The DA has proposed the criminalisation of the misuse of public office to combat corruption in the public sector. It has proposed that before any legislation or regulations are introduced a cost analysis must be done. A clear example of Government not being able to afford its own legislation is the Refugees Act.

The DA also proposes that before any new policy or regulations are introduced in a department, an assessment of its regulatory impact must be done to ensure that we are not creating more red tape, and that the new rules and regulations have the desired effect. We also propose that the Department of the Public Service and Administration evaluate all current policies and regulations in every department by the Regulatory Impact Assessment test in order to identify cumbersome areas of overregulation which are stifling delivery.

The DA strongly believes in introducing financial rewards for public servants who identify savings or service improvements by means of more efficient practices. We also believe that all Ministers - you lot - should pledge before new legislation is introduced into their departments that they have the capacity to drive the new legislation, and to achieve its goals and deadlines, failing which they should all accept accountability and responsibility for its failure. [Interjections.] We believe that policy- making in the public sector should become a more joined-up approach … [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order! I cannot hear you, hon member!

Mr D J SITHOLE: Madam Speaker, I am asking whether it is parliamentary for a member to say ``you lot’’ when referring to other members of the House. [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order! Order! [Interjections.] Order! Do take your seat hon member. Well, it is not necessarily unparliamentary to say ``you lot’’. [Interjections.] However, it is conventional to refer to your hon colleagues in the House as hon members. [Interjections.]

Mr D J SITHOLE: Madam Speaker, I cannot hear you! [Interjections.]

Mr M WATERS: The Public Service must be organised around the users, that is the voters, instead of around the structure, that is the Ministers. An example of that would be the allocation of offices and office hours. Many people are still at work when our offices are actually closing. How many of the members, when they go to their constituencies, have heard people complaining about the fact that they have to take a day’s leave in order to apply for an ID book?

I say to the hon the Minister that we promote the expansion of one-stop shops. We believe that that should be continued and accelerated. We would like to congratulate the Minister in that regard for that initiative. I am sure that hon members will agree with me that having separate buildings for each department is a thing of the past. Expenses aside, why should people have to travel at huge cost from one building to another for services when they should be able to conduct all their business with the Government under one roof?

The DA agrees with the department that an IT strategy for Government must be developed. This should establish cross-governmental co-ordinating machinery and frameworks. That will alleviate the tedious filling in of forms at each department, which require basically the same information from each individual. The DA realises that that process is not a simple one and that tough choices have to be made. We strongly believe that the starting point must be the political will of the national Cabinet to act to get the Public Service delivering to all the people. Sadly, the ANC Cabinet lacks that will.

In conclusion, I would like to thank all the hard-working members of the Public Service who have dedicated their lives to making a difference in South Africa. The Government owes those people support. The Government owes the people of South Africa a Public Service which delivers. If the ANC cannot deliver that, it has no right to be in the Government. [Interjections.] [Applause.]

Prof L B G NDABANDABA: Madam Speaker, hon Minister, officials of the department and hon members, I congratulate the chairperson of the portfolio committee, the hon Nathi Nhleko, for being a good captain of the portfolio committee.

The Department for the Public Service and Administration is charged with the task of leading the modernisation of the Public Service by assisting Government departments in implementing their own management policies, systems and structural solutions. The DPSA hopes to achieve its objectives through the following three programmes which the Minister has highlighted: administration, functional assistance to the Minister, and auxiliary and associated services.

The DPSA has developed a number of policies between 1997 and 2001. Those policies deal with the transformation of the Public Service, affirmative action, human resources management, training and education in the Public Service. In the medium term, that is from 2001 to 2002, the DPSA aims to improve the skills of senior management in the Public Service, improve service delivery, provide oversight of Sita, develop e-government and implement related information technology projects, and develop and implement risk management practices, including an HIV/Aids policy for the Public Service.

Those priorities are aimed at strengthening Government’s capacity to support integrated programmes such as the Integrated Sustainable Rural Development Strategy. Those policy developments will be realised through the DPSA budget which has two main components, namely a core budget component and transfers to Sita from the auxiliary and associated services programme.

More than 80% of the core budget is spent on personnel because the DPSA is labour intensive. Administration, which conducts the overall management and administration of the DPSA, takes 28,5% of the total budget allocation for 2000-01 and 2002. There is a 0,5% decrease in the budget allocation for this programme. This is a concern to us.

The functional assistance to the Minister’s programme, through its subprogrammes, endeavours to create a unified Public Service, develop and partially implement a new policy, ensure more effective development of resources, and facilitate ongoing institution building. In 2000 the DPSA identified weak management capacity as a focus area that needs attention. Consequently, the DPSA has developed a senior management service system.

The programme on auxiliary services aims to deliver auxiliary services and services related to the department. The Budget allocation on this Programme has decreased by 14,3% between 2001-02. However, 29,2% of the overall budget is allocated to this programme for 2002.

In conclusion, the IFP wishes to pose a few questions which are intended to be food for thought to the Minister and the DPSA. These questions are as follows. Since Government has raised concerns about the share of personnel spending in the budget, what has the department done to address the concerns on personnel spending? Why is there a 14,3% decrease in the auxiliary and associated services programme? Is the decrease not going to affect the activities of the programme? Why has the increase in professional special services not been allocated to capacity-building? What is the racial and gender composition of the Public Service? How much money has the DPSA lost because of corruption in the Public Service? To what extent will e-government improve service delivery in the Public Service? To what degree has corruption in the Public Service affected service delivery? And how effective is Batho Pele?

We sincerely hope that the budget we are debating today will enable the hon the Minister and the department to address these questions and to accelerate transformation and service delivery. We support the budget. [Applause.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order! Before I call on the next speaker, I would like to recognise a delegation of the Botswana caucus for women in politics led by the minister of local government and housing in Botswana. You are welcome, honourable members. [Applause.]

Mr M R SIKAKANE: Madam Speaker, I am extremely tempted to go for the last DP speaker! [Interjections.] I am so disappointed, and I remember the saying which goes: It is better to trust a stone than to trust a man. Because the hon member is still young and we are with him on the committee, I thought he was a promising member. But when he stood up to speak here I began to think about what one member said in my constituency. He said to me: Comrade Rich, why don't you ask Tony Leon where he was all these years? When did he learn the worddemocracy?’’. [Interjections.] He continued and said: Did he not know that people needed water, electricity and equal education?’’. [Interjections.]

We have visitors here today, and they expect us to say something that they can take home and give them hope. However, we have been listening to that hon member and he is not telling our people anything. He is waiting for election day so that he can go and deliver parcels to people and so forth. [Interjections.] I am not going to waste my time with such a member. [Applause.]

The Minister for the Public Service and Administration said that one can take a piece of wood, but that it cannot keep the fires burning. I am saying to hon members today that Sita can keep the fires burning and rolling in this country, because it can make the undeliverable deliverable.

The quest for change culminated in the introduction of the Sita Act, Act 88 of 1998. This was a legislative expression for change with regards to the functioning of IT in Government, while the White Paper on Transforming Public Service Delivery of September 1997 offered the policy framework of Government to put people first, as initiated by Batho Pele. The State Information Technology Agency - Sita - was established as an instrument of the Department of Public Service and Administration to champion change for and on behalf of Government on the IT front.

As a shareholder on behalf of Government in Sita, the Department of Public Service and Administration highlighted the key elements to strive for. These include making use of Government’s spending power to reduce costs, to increase productivity, and to deliver public services on the Internet to work for the convenience and welfare of citizens.

An additional factor of change was the establishment of the Government Information Technology Officers Council, Gito, made up of directors of state organs and charged with the responsibility of ensuring that their respected departments use IT to the best advantage. This was a wonderful move in terms of which we are saying that this component of Government, established by this Parliament, has gone further and called upon all the directors of departments to form this unit in order to ensure that Sita can do what it ought to do and make all the deliverables deliverable. That is why my theme today is about Sita as an agent for change. Hon members must just keep on listening.

The elements of change involving Government’s IT division is to take strategic decisions that Sita will be expected to implement. Sita is on track and is not a mistake. Sita, therefore, constitutes a complementary part of the total set of state institutions that are mandated to act as instruments of change. However, for this change to come about, all state institutions must act in concert, with a view to making a joint and co- ordinated response to Government expectations. Sita’s mandate directs it to provide in IT needs and deliver IT services for the specific ordering of state organs.

Sita’s involvement of innovators from the private sector is to meet IT needs, to provide IT services and solutions. Results should be in support of Government business objectives and not the other way round, as an hon member demonstrated here. Those members always work against Government for things that will not help the people who sent us to this Parliament. But, never mind, they have been doing that for the past 100 years, it’s their usual stuff. [Interjections.]

As the dedicated IT arm of Government, Sita’s goal is to address the following: to make IT systems compatible; to eliminate unnecessary duplication that may exist; to use Government’s buying power to leverage economies of scale; and to ensure that citizens’ information, in terms of the cost to the state, is not compromised through the maintenance of secure IT involvement. These are tasks that the country would be proud to see achieved. Of all the sectors that should experience change, the IT sector has not been left out. It has a dedicated platform to look up to. Sita is the agent of change on the IT front.

I would like to highlight the fact that the people of Nongoma, Thohoyandou, Mafikeng and Cofimvaba are watching to see what this country is going to do. They are sitting there, expecting change to come. It was heartening for me to learn that Germany, a First-World country, went to India and invited 2 000 IT-literate Indians to settle in Germany, so that they could make things happen. Then the question was: What do we do in this country?

The chair of the board, who is seated there, Sello Rasethaba, said to me:

Do you know what Sita is aiming to achieve? We have a mission whereby right in Thohoyandou, Nongoma, or Cofimvaba, if there is a post office, we are going to go to the post office and say: `Let us plug in a cord here which will take electricity to that nearby school where there is no electricity. We will fill that school with IT equipment, and our children will be able to become computer literate.

That is what we are here for in this country and in this Parliament. That is what the people sent us here for. Members are not here to demand things they never did for the past 100 years. They only know those things are needed today.

Finally, I would like to thank and congratulate Mr Van Schalkwyk, who has been appointed the CEO of Sita, and the team seated there with the chairman of the board, Sello Rasethaba, who have given our people hope for the future, ie that IT is up and running in this country. In a few years’ time, we would not be going to Germany, America or Britain to ask for skilled people to come to this country, because Sita is designed to do this, and they have given us hope. I would like to turn to our people in the gallery and say that there is hope for our children. They will all be computer literate in the future. [Applause.]

Mr A Z A VAN JAARSVELD: Madam Speaker, at a time when the inability of the ANC to govern the country becomes more and more evident, when the Tshwetes and the Yengenis of Parliament are an embarrassment to their own people, when the ANC wilfully fails to draw a distinct line between party and Government, and where the taxpayer’s money is being misspent on bogus threats against the President, there is, however, a Minister who goes about her task with vigour and determination. She needs to be commended for her value and efforts in setting the pace for the transformation of the Public Service.

Anders as ander Ministers, het sy lank reeds besef dat die effektiewe transformasie van die Staatsdiens slegs sal slaag indien dit gedryf word deur ‘n ystervrou met ‘n ysterwil. [Tussenwerpsels.] [Unlike other Ministers she realised long ago that the effective transformation of the Public Service will only be successful if it is driven by an iron woman with an iron will. [Interjections.]]

The Minister’s uncompromising stand against Cosatu and organised labour and the demanding wage negotiations should serve as a good example to her colleagues in Cabinet. She does not allow her party affiliation to distract her in the execution of her task as the head of a Government department which is accountable to all the people of South Africa, and not only to the dwindling ANC. She proved to her colleagues that one can achieve one’s goals if one is prepared to stand firm on principles, rather than to succumb to internal alliance pressures.

The Department of Public Service and Administration is primarily responsible for creating a culture of good governance. This can only be achieved by a well-trained staff component, in which the SA Management Development Institute should play a pivotal role. In this regard, all departments should be compelled to utilise the training and development programmes that are provided by Samdi. The Department of Public Service and Administration has come a long way since the publication of the Presidential Review Commission’s Report on Transformation of the Public Service in February 1998. However, the Government has still not succeeded in addressing poor productivity, poor work ethics, proper performance monitoring and the low level of service delivery, to name but a few.

If we say that good governance and administration is the major catalyst needed to ensure the overall success by the Government to achieve its goal of liberating and empowering the South African people, to eradicate poverty and to launch the South African economy on the road to steady growth, the Government must take the following aspects into consideration.

Existing plans must be consolidated and all efforts should concentrate on these plans rather than to create more and more new untested frameworks. This will enable the Government to proceed with the full implementation of these plans in order to enable the departments to determine the successes and failures of programmes so that the necessary adjustments could be made.

The Government must address the lack of interdepartmental relations that is still responsible for poor co-ordination within and between different departments and spheres of Government. This makes it difficult to implement national programmes and consequently leads to failure to deliver basic services.

There is a need for stronger and more accountable political oversight in order to manage the progress and performance of Ministers and departments. It is important to realise that the total transformation of the Public Service is not the task of only one Minister and one department, the Department of Public Service and Administration. It must be a collective effort by all Ministers and Government departments.

Frameworks and strategies are not developed simply to give Ministers and director-generals more work. No, they are developed in order to provide departments with the necessary tools for service delivery and productivity. Therefore, Ministers in particular should commit themselves to bringing to their offices and to this Parliament an awareness of the responsibility to the people, as provided for by the democratic process. Skilled, honest political leadership is needed to determine policies that will address the needs of the total South African society, and the ultimate responsibility is to account to Parliament and to the public at large, with integrity, for that which has been and that which has not been done by the Government. I believe that it is imperative to take these issues into account if we want to succeed in accelerating the transformation of the Public Service in order to serve all the people of South Africa.

In the final analysis, I want to thank the Minister for this mouse pad with a clock on it, which is an indication that time is running out for the delivery of service.

Mr D J SITHOLE: Madam Speaker, it is always nice to have a salesman who sells goods. But once one has a salesman who is unable to sell anything, such as Mr Van Jaarsveld, then one has a problem. No wonder he left selling houses and came to Parliament in the hope that he would make a career. It is still not working out.

It is true that seven years ago this department was nothing else but a tool to enforce apartheid. The ANC Government was faced with the challenge of transforming the apartheid machinery that knew nothing about public service management to an organisation that can meet the challenge of a new political order - I direct this to Mr Waters.

Driving transformation in the Public Service requires the organisational capacity to respond to political concerns whilst co-ordinating management changes. To sustain change and maintain a newly-created standard of service delivery in the public service requires a strong DPSA. It is, therefore, important for Samdi to intensify training on policy so as to ensure that the culture of caring, as espoused by Batho Pele, takes root.

The DPSA must provide professional support to line departments. It must recruit professionals who are community cadres and understand the constituency the line department serves. The challenge to the Public Service is to recruit and retain qualified staff.

The growing complexity of needs means that the DPSA has to recruit specialists and assist in providing analysis and good policy development. Public service, by its very nature, is the yardstick of the relationship between Government and the public. Therefore the Department of Public Service and Administration should and must be an agent for change.

The aim of the Department of the Public Service and Administration is to lead modernisation of the Public Service by assisting Government departments in implementing their own management policies, systems and structural solutions within a framework of generally applicable norms and standards in order to improve service delivery. The task of the department is to champion change, merit, integrity and excellence in the Public Service. The department should be a site of learning and innovation. The department has to contend with a Public Service that has complex responsibilities, as opposed to the old public service that performed repetitive work.

The new society requires a public service that will adapt to the new challenges of technology and globalisation. This complexity, brought about by changes in society, has placed a strain on management structures of the Public Service. The growing sophistication and interdependence of the nations’ economies require that the Government departments keep up with constant changes, both in policy development and implementation. Flexibility and responsiveness of Government is a permanent challenge. Our people expect an improved performance from the Public Service. They expect improved service delivery. They expect to be treated equally. They expect service delivery to be cost-effective and transparent. Equality is not what was implied by the hon Waters. When he speaks on behalf of our people, he claims that he knows what they want. He further claims that the DA is able to deliver, when in fact the DA and his upbringing have taught him that he is superior to blacks. [Interjections.]

He comes here and makes a noise about the race card, whilst in fact he is unable to speak in the committee. I first heard the hon member saying something for the first time in the committee. I hope that whoever prepared his speech will do it again and assist him in the committee. [Interjections.]

President Mbeki visited the Northern Province to speak to ordinary people. Only the ANC can do this, because it is the only political movement that is grounded within the masses. This example must be emulated by Parliament, to ensure that it engages with citizens so as to evaluate the impact of the laws it passes. This will ensure that public representatives are able to engage with the public on its needs and what can be done to improve the Public Service, not to do the moaning that is being done by the opposition. [Interjections.]

We declared the 21st century an African century. The ANC, in its 8 January statement, raised the issue of developing a cadre of the 21st century. The development of such a cadre will ensure that the gains made by the mass democratic movement are not reversed. Public Service managers must be responsive and accept that change is inevitable. It is the work of this Government which has created the platform to change values and attitudes of the Public Service, not the DP or its surrogate child, the New NP.

Accountability is enshrined in the Batho Pele policy. This policy places people first and says that public servants must serve diligently. It is also true that not all public servants are performing as expected. There are still old people out there who are not happy with what they have experienced in our departments. But we are committed to changing for the better.

We need a public service that will be guided by the needs of the people. We need a public service that will provide career pathing and growth for individuals, and organisations that will provide incentives for good performance and reward those who perform exceptionally well.

One critical issue is the issue of representativeness in the Public Service as reflected by the report of the Public Service Commission. It is critical that the noncompliance by departments - and for that matter, provinces - with national policy be dealt with firmly. The department has a responsibility to ensure that all departments, irrespective of their location, meet the policy objectives.

This adherence to national policy is quite an interesting phenomenon when it comes to local government, particularly in the Western Cape. It is my submission that all spheres of government should be governed by one Government policy and therefore the legal regime of local government must be reviewed. Since the department was established, it has played a critical role in formulating policies that are a reflection of a new order. The expenditure of the department will show that the organisation is becoming a professional body, run and managed by cadres who understand the role and centrality of our people in changing their conditions.

We are led to believe that Government is inherently incompetent. Of course there are still problems, but to say Government is inherently incompetent is wrong, because it is not true. The work that is done by those men and women in the Public Service goes beyond the call of duty.

I went to visit the Booysens police station in my constituency. The amount of effort put in by the personnel at the station is unbelievable. Despite the fact that resources are limited, the commitment to do the work with those limited resources is encouraging. Improving service delivery does not mean more money in all instances, but rather doing the right thing the first time, and having the right attitude towards work.

We commend the leadership role played by Cosatu to ensure that the outcome of wage negotiations set good precedences for the future. The success of the Public Service jobs summit held in the Northern Province is a reflection of maturity between Government and the public-sector unions. We also need to urge the department to expedite the development of the exit management policy. This policy will help to ensure a smooth and organised exit for those who want to move out of the Public Service. It is time that the Public Service employs managers who must perform their management responsibilities, and release those who are trained as doctors or policemen to do the work they were trained do.

The Department of Public Service and Administration, together with other line-function departments, should review the policy of promotion. We must place people where they should be. Doctors must be doctors, nurses must be nurses, policemen must be policemen, and managers must be managers, and not the other way round.

Government is not a safe haven for nonperformers. Those who have no will to perform must go. Those who still want to protect the old order must go. That includes the DA in the Western Cape. We cannot afford to have people who are outright fascists in our country.

In the Minister’s budget speech, the department made commitments and said that there were key outputs and key indicators that they had set themselves. It is our view, as the portfolio committee, that the department will always be evaluated in line with the objectives they set themselves in the Budget Estimates, and will not have mercy in dealing with deviations in making sure that our people get delivery, not the noise that we get from the other side. [Applause.]

Mr T ABRAHAMS: Chairperson, I must agree with hon member Sithole that the Public Service in any country must constantly change in a changing world to ensure efficient service delivery. I also salute the top brass, who are sitting in the cross-benches. I am glad that they can be here.

On Tuesday this week, in closing the budget debate on Water Affairs and Forestry, Minister Kasrils did something commendable that seems to have become an outmoded practice in this Parliament. He delivered what can be accepted as a ministerial reply to a debate. He had the courtesy to thank all the participants in the debate and he commented on the inputs of members, including those who were critical of his department.

It is hoped that the Ministers, or the Minister of Public Service and Administration and all other Ministers for that matter, will follow this good example. Courteous conduct is the hallmark of good upbringing and reflects respect for humankind, especially when extended to those who hold different views from oneself.

Moreover, if one expects others themselves, particularly those who look to one for leadership, to extend courtesy, one must be prepared at all times to set the example. I think my comment affects the Leader of the Opposition as well.

Ensuring courtesy is a fundamental proposal made in the White Paper on Transforming Public Service Delivery and the principle of Batho Pele, which really should be most easily achieved. Batho Pele places the people first. This simply means that Public Service staff must be ever cognisant of the need for customer care, which begins with courteous behaviour in their interaction with the public. Not only does a nurse …

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! Order, hon member. [Interjections.] Mr N J GOGOTYA: Chairperson, would the speaker kindly stick to the issue that is being debated today. [Interjections.] He has read five paragraphs, but has not said a thing about the debate today.

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: That is not a point of order, Mr Gogotya. Continue, Mr Abrahams.

Mr T ABRAHAMS: Not only does a nurse who is frequently absent from a clinic reflect a lack of care for patients, but such discourteous conduct puts unnecessary pressure on colleagues on duty as well. By the same token, senior management that fails to act for months on a report from a school principal that a teacher has absconded is not promoting customer care. These are things that must be eliminated.

A reading of the report on a survey of compliance with the Batho Pele policy confirms that, inter alia, the policy has not yet changed the daily tasks of frontline personnel. It is a very practical policy and must not be seen as an add-on to the main business of departments. It is the main business of departments. I quote this very well-worded statement because it is precise. In terms of the mouse pad that the hon the Minister gave us, which refers to honesty and honour and of our having to be above reproach, it is unforgivable that public servants must be obliged to work under a deputy director-general who is publicly labelled by a magistrate as ``a pathetic liar who attempted to obstruct justice’’. It is amazing how the system can tolerate such a character on the payroll for such a long time, a time in which he committed deeds, or is alleged to have committed deeds, concerning covering up for a lot of personnel who did corrupt things.

These are the things that the system must be shaped into expelling from the Public Service if we are to succeed in this direction. My time has run out and I will not touch on the next item that I wanted to refer to.

Mr R J B MOHLALA: Chairperson, hon Minister and colleagues, the leadership of the Department of Public Service and Administration has as it aim the modernisation of the Public Service, moving away from the old ways in which the apartheid machinery operated. To illustrate this I would say in my language: ``Botate bajele matata, meno gwa sia a bana.’’ [The children are suffering the consequences of the evil deeds committed by the apartheid regime.] This leadership is aimed at being realised by the assistance that the department gives to other departments, to see how best they implement their management policies, systems and structural solutions. The implementation is envisaged within applicable frameworks of set norms and standards. These norms and standards are not designed and applicable by, or at national level, to the exclusion of provinces or any province for that matter, as others would like us to believe. That is why, therefore, the norms and standards have to be measurable.

They can be measured, firstly, by the state of managerial representivity. The provinces need to apply the same norms and standards as national departments. This issue of management policies cuts across all spheres of government. Although the situation nationally is not something to write home about, it has improved tremendously. The provinces, with the exception of two of them, are making a good attempt at improving the situation. The two provinces that are lagging behind are the Free State and the Western Cape. However, there is a difference between the two provinces. The situation in the Free State is of a managerial nature.

In the Western Cape, the situation is politically sanctioned. Here we have a DA-controlled government that has its own norms and standards, separate from those applicable nationally. [Interjections.] We have a government that is clinging to old apartheid norms and standards, a government in which 72% of its managers are still lily-white, male, probably middle-aged and Afrikaans-speaking. [Interjections.]

In actual numbers, there are only six Africans, 12 Indians, 52 coloureds and, voilà, 176 whites in each managerial echelon since 1994. [Interjections.] Males comprise 88% compared to a mere 12% of female managers. [Interjections.] This is a reversal, to say the least, and it undermines the gains that we have made as South Africans.

Mr M WATERS: Chairperson, on a point of order: Is it parliamentary for the hon member to mislead the House as far as figures and the racial demographics of the Western Cape are concerned?

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! Well, I cannot determine right now whether those figures are misleading the House or not. Mr M WATERS: Chairperson, I know that the member is misleading the House, because I have the figures right here. [Interjections.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! Take a seat, Mr Waters. That is not a point of order. I cannot determine right now whether, based on the figures, the hon member is misleading the House or not. Continue, hon member.

Mr R J B MOHLALA: Thank you, Chairperson. The hon member is at a disadvantage because he just joined the portfolio committee quite recently. That is why he is shooting from the hip. [Laughter.]

They managed to achieve this with flying colours, despite a dramatic increase from 121 managers in 1999, to 246 this year. The South African Constitution demands that all provinces adhere to Public Service regulations on transformation in order to reflect the country’s demographics and political dispensation. We need to understand the history from which we come. The ANC Government has a mandate to transform not only the state machinery, but also society. We therefore do not need the antics of the DA. Mathaithai ao a dirwago ke makgotlana a mantlwane bjalo ka DA, ga re a nyake. ANC, e lego ya makhuduthamaga, e rile ge e tšea mmuso ya bea lenanego-kgoparara la go fetola maphelo a batho ba Afrika Borwa. Makgotlana a bjalo ka DA ona a lebeletše bomenemene le bolotsana bja gore mmuso wa ANC o se ke wa atlega. [Legofsi.] Lefapha la Tona, e lego mmago rena, mohlomphegi Geraldine Fraser-Moleketi, le ikemiseditse go tlisetsa batho ba rena seo re ba tshephisitsego, e lego tlhahlelelo e mpsa yeo e ikemego ka tlhahlelelo bathong ba gabo rena.

Ga bjalo, seo se ra gore tlhahlelelo yeo re bolelago ka yona e swanetse gore e kwiwe ke batho bao ba e emetsego metseng ya gabo rena, e ka ba Mapulaneng, Phalaborwa, Polokwane, Sekgosese, Tshwane, Gauteng, le yona Kapa, moo ba dirago meleko ye. [Lesego.]

Seo re ka se botsago DA ke gore, di tla bonyane ke di tla boima. Le gona Mopresitente wa rena o itse ge a fetola mathomong a ngwaga a ba lemosa gore seo se sa felego se a hlola. Meswinini ke batho, mehlolo ke dinoga matsatsing a lehono. [Legofsi.] Tsela yeo DA e itshwerego ka yona e lemosa ge e le gore ba swerwe ke letswa la tatamoloko ka ge botate ba lle matata meno go sia a bana. Fela rena go ANC re tseba gore le ge ke se modumedi, ke rata go tsopola Beibele. ``Tate o tla nkabela dijo manaba a ka a ntebeletse, a ntlotsa hlogo makhura, senwelo saka sa tletse wa go falala, tse botse fela le kgaugelo di tlo ntatela mehla yohle ke sa phela.’’ (Translation of Sepedi paragraphs follows.)

[Monkey tricks, as are usually performed by small parties such as the DA, are not wanted. When the ruling ANC came into power, it established various infrastructures aimed at changing the lives of South Africans. Small parties like the DA are only involved in misinformation campaigns that are meant to discredit the ANC-Government. [Applause.] The Department of Public Service and Administration of the hon Geraldine Fraser-Moleketi, is prepared to bring to the people what was promised before, that is self- empowering.

Therefore this empowerment can only be achieved by representatives from our villages, be it Mapulaneng, Phalaborwa, Polokwane, Sekgosese, Tshwane, Gauteng, as well as Cape Town, where all these efforts are being made. [Laughter.]

What we can say to the DA is ``for better or for worse.’’ What our President reported in his speech at the beginning of the year made them aware that everything has a beginning and an end. Snakes are nowadays seen as people, while people are seen as serpents. [Applause.] The DA’s way of living still leaves much to be desired.

Even if I am not a Christian, I would like to quote from the Bible. ``My God prepares a banquet for me, where all my enemies can see me, He welcomes me as an honoured guest, and fills my cup to the brim, I know that God’s goodness and love will be with me all the days of my life.’’]

Our quest for transformation and realisation of a better life for all is unstoppable. The DPSA, through the PSC, has enough data to be in a position to formulate a clear strategic response to the shortcomings that still exist in service delivery. There are clear strategic interventions that shall be employed. Today we as the ANC Government are at a stage where we know where the bottlenecks and blockages are. As the department embarks on the improvement of service delivery, our people, who are the recipients of this service delivery, shall pass judgment on whether the Government performs or not. [Interjections.] So far, there has not been any indication on the Government’s part that there is a collapse in service delivery. Instead, the feedback is that the Government is doing just fine. [Interjections.] But - a big but - we still have areas of service delivery that need further improvement. There is a need to revamp the way public servants carry themselves in servicing the people out there. That is our mandate.

Modulasetulo, ntumelele ke re ge ke tlo fetša, ke lemoše Ntlo ye gore go nanya go phala go kitima. Mengwaga e šupago yeo e fetilego, re be re loga maano, bjalo matengwa a beilwe, maumo a tla tšwelela. Lenanego la Kgoro la Batho Pele le na le dikokwane tšeo di tiilego.

Ba bangwe bao ba tšamogo gore ke bona bo tsebanyane, go swana le bo mohlomphegi Waters. Ge e ele Tony Abrahams o mmakaditše ka gore ke thoma go mmona le go mo kwa a bolela ka taba tše, ka gore ga nke re mmona. Bjale re ipotšiša gore naa tsebo yeo ba nago le yona ba e tšea kae, e bile ba bala dipuku dife tšeo rena re sa di balego? Fela seo se lego gona ke gore re swanetše gore re kwišiše gore la fata ga le boe feela.

Ge ke lebeletše, go na le mokgalabje o mongwe o tlo tla mo, Mohlomphegi Bell. (Translation of Sepedi paragraphs follows.)

[Mr Chairperson, please allow me to finish my speech, steady but slow. For the past seven years, we have been devising various ways and means and now the foundation has been laid and the fruit shall be reaped. The department’s concept of Batho Pele has well-established foundations.

There are some, like the hon Waters, who claim to be knowledgeable. As for Mr Tony Abrahams, I am surprised to hear him saying these things, let alone actually seeing him, because

I hardly see him most of the time. So, we ask ourselves, where did they get this information, and which books do they read that we do not? What we need to understand is that one gets the rewards for one’s labour.

I realise that the next speaker will be the hon Bell.]

I have never seen such an old man from whom I cannot learn anything. In my culture one learns from old people. That old man is not going to fail me. He is still going to come. There is nothing that hon members can learn from him. [Laughter.] [Applause.]

In conclusion, I want to indicate that it does not help members of the DA to come here and play cheap politics. We know them and we meet them at portfolio committee meetings. They are as dead as I do not know what. They do not contribute a bit, but somehow they have the wisdom to tell us how wrong we are and so forth, just to waste our time. Unfortunately they can howl as much as they like, but there is something they do not know about me. I am deaf in my left ear. If one howls, one is wasting one’s time. [Laughter.] [Applause.]

Before I sit down, I would like to say:

Maropeng ra re re tloga ra lema dithaka, ra re re boa ra ja maraka. [Legofsi.] [If one leaves the place of one’s birth and goes to a new place, when times are hard then one will gain comfort at the ruins of the place of one’s birth. [Applause.]]

Adv Z L MADASA: Chairperson, hon members will excuse my voice. I am not feeling well.

Public Service and Administration is responsible …

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! Hon members, hon Nhleko and the whole group there, please could we control ourselves so that we can move on with the business of the day?

Adv Z L MADASA: Public Service and Administration is responsible for policy development. It is not directly involved in service delivery. The statement is not entirely true. It is the duty and responsibility of policy formulators to establish what impact such policies have on the intended recipients. Are they having the desired effect?

The Public Service Commission was instituted to take charge of monitoring and evaluation. Samdi was instituted to develop managers by training them in appropriate skills, so that service delivery could be improved. Sita was to supply the state with IT.

It is common cause that, despite these measures, there is still poor service delivery because the machinery is still struggling to work efficiently, to deliver the intended services. In other words, the restructuring that has been done that is good in the Public Service, has not yet yielded the required results.

The usual complaint from the department is that the resources are not enough. I put it to the Government today that we cannot say the money is not enough, unless it can be proved convincingly that the money available is unable to cover, not the work done, but the work which should have been done. They should show us by means of figures and the amount of work done that the money was short. One official has admitted before the committee that the budget process employed at this stage is not yet scientific and does not conform to the required formulas.

What is done about this to ensure that budgeting is improved? Money will never be enough. What is important is whether we are doing good work with what we have. The Government has instituted a cluster approach to service delivery. This is a good system, because if properly used it will help the Government to use the available money efficiently. But the snare is that the departments still plan separately and work separately.

I was encouraged by the developing co-operation between Public Works and Agriculture, but more is needed. Before any project is undertaken in any department, the question should be asked: Which other departments will be affected by this decision and in what way? How can other departments be of help, so that this project is sustained?

For example, the ex-President, Mr Mandela, goes about building schools and equipping them, but is there any collaboration between these projects with the department? Does the Departments of Safety and Security, Education or Public Works have a plan to ensure the safety of those schools, and that the equipment is not stolen?

The clusters must not be rigid. There must be flexibility in departments to work with any other department if a need arises. Samdi must ensure that the managers are multi-skilled and able to work for the public in any department at any time. The issue is not whether a department is efficient, but whether the entire Government is working well. People may get service from one department, but if they are experiencing crime, for example, then they would blame the entire Government. To the Minister of Public Service, what plans are there to create flexible clusters which can tackle projects with ease? What plans are there for the amalgamation of budgets to deliver particular projects, and what plans there are for more centralised planning and budgeting?

With the scarcity of resources the Government cannot afford a disintegrated departmental approach to service delivery. The question is no longer whether a department is run properly, but whether the entire Government is run properly?

Ms C C SEPTEMBER: Chairperson, comrades, 25 years ago, after having been forcefully removed from their birthplace in Distict Six, Constantia and other places, people from Bonteheuwel, Heideveld and other areas were promised better lives, rather than gangsterism, in the sand dunes and bushes of Mitchells Plain. Not only were they confused to see so much white sand and bushes, thinking that at least they were in a holiday resort, but soon the reality also dawned upon them that there was a problem when the houses started to crack and their means of public transport was to travel via Manenberg to get to Mitchells Plain. This is unlike the stories we have heard about how things have changed here in the Western Cape.

Very soon people in Mitchells Plain demanded health facilities in the form of a general hospital. Unfortunately and very disgustingly the DA’s response was to give them a hospital called Lentegeur. This mental hospital is still there today.

I wish to tell Comrade Minister that the stories are similar in many of our black areas. The housing office responded to the needs of the community on the basis of officials being bribed and gangsters, who have now mushroomed like anything, being paid protection money. Therefore, service delivered in places like Tafelsig by the police today to stop gangsterism does not address the historical problems in those areas.

Public servants were taught that they could accumulate leave, and that they could work overtime, not to address service delivery, but because this is the culture they all have to follow that. It was unheard of for a woman to become a manager in any department. We were told earlier on that in the Western Cape, red tape is being removed to speed up change, but what are the facts?

In 1995 the ANC Government passed a law to change land use planning at the national level in the country. We should ask the hon Waters to ask his DA provincial government why they are refusing, if he claims they are changing things, to implement the law on land use planning and, therefore, why our football players cannot play at Newlands, as has been demonstrated. [Interjections.]

Why are they not changing, at the provincial government, a law from 1995, and trying to say that the ANC has not done so at the level of local government. [Interjections.] At the provincial government they are refusing to change the law, like so many other laws they have refused to change, which my comrades have referred to here already. [Interjections.]

The fact is that blacks and women are not employed in the Western Cape public service, and not that the ramblings that hon members have heard here today. [Interjections.] [Applause.] The fact is that our people were told that the buzzwords should rather be: ``Do not tell anyone that we are doing these things, because it is better to keep things like that.’’

Because we come from that background and because we have seen what has been done, particularly by the machinery of the state, to keep apartheid intact, we have made sure that in terms of section 196 of the Constitution we have a body to investigate independently, to do monitoring, to do research and to make sure that we have good governance and service delivery in the form of the Public Service Commission. [Interjections.] My left ear is closed too, so the hon member can howl. [Laughter.]

The Public Service Commission has a mandate to promote effective and efficient departments. [Interjections.] It was necessary for us to do that. It was necessary to give them a mandate to promote affirmative action, because in the Western Cape we will continue to have public servants being white, male and 60 years old. [Interjections.] We have given them the mandate to make sure that our people will be served in the form of Batho Pele. We have also made sure that we give the mandate to the Public Service Commission to implement Government policies. [Interjections.]

Two weeks ago we heard, yet again, that in all the provinces Government policies were being introduced. Who was not? Who else but the ``volkstaat’’ Western Cape was refusing to implement these Government policies. [Interjections.] The mandate is to deepen democracy and to empower our people so that they can effect democracy. Reports have already been received about whether we are moving in this direction, including, and very importantly, in terms of budget allocations made to effect these programmes.

At last our people are now being offered an opportunity to take Batho Pele to its next phase by making sure that they can participate in making service delivery more people-friendly. We have examples of that in the Northern Cape in the form of one-stop centres. [Interjections.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order, hon member! Order! Hon Waters and the gentleman behind you, you are interrupting the discussion of this House. [Interjections.] Heckling is allowed in the House, but you are overdoing it now. Could you please give the member a chance to be heard? Continue, hon member.

Ms C C SEPTEMBER: Thank you, Chair, for saving me from the creche. [Laughter.] Our public sector cannot be called transformed without the inclusion of our disabled people. We think that more efforts should be made to get disabled people into the Public Service. An important initiative is in the pipeline by the Public Service Commission and, of course, the portfolio committee - which the hon Waters supported by the way - is taking the improvement of service delivery to the people.

The primary function of this body is to exercise the methods and solutions to ensure delivery, and not merely to complain as one part of the opposition normally does, because the New NP did not support them today. So, too, in the area of anticorruption, there is an ongoing investigation into procurements, tendering and maladministration. It is not as if we are going to have the tendering office in Long Street in the Western Cape, with our people in Mitchells Plain never being able to access the office - again a decision taken by the Western Cape. [Interjections.] The many recommendations by the Public Service Commission must find a way to implementation or else we will be undermining the constitutional importance of the Public Service Commission. Adherence to these recommendations will alleviate the plight of the people in Eastridge and Tafelsig who have to take two taxis when applying for a grant or pension because it has been decided to house the maintenance department in the Lentegeur Hospital instead of grouping them together as one service.

And then, of course, the people have been asking the MEC for Safety and Security for a sub-police station in the heartland of the gang warfare area. To date this has not been given to the people to bring some relief with regard to gang warfare. What we heard, instead, is that the ``Bobby on the beat’’ will be on the parade rather than in Mitchells Plain. [Applause.]

Mr I S MFUNDISI: Mr Chairperson and hon members, the Public Service is the front office of any government and should serve the public relations exercise of the Government of the day. A dedicated, friendly, people- centred and loyal public service is a blessing to any government.

Some departments continue not to inform even shortlisted applicants about the outcome of their interviews. We maintain that, whether successful or otherwise, people who are interviewed should know the outcome of their interviews.

It is becoming common to learn of highly placed Government officials, in some cases managers, who have misrepresented their qualifications. Departments, selectors and panels of interviewers have to be strict, and if an applicant, regardless of who it is or whose daughter or son it is, does not include the required documentation, such an applicant should not be considered, as promises to submit documentation, later are never fulfilled.

We appreciate, however, the managerialist approach of the Public Service, in which clear performance measures are established and managers are contractually tied to the achievement of their tasks. This type of management system enables the authorities to know who has not performed accordingly, and remedial action is taken swiftly. The system in place leaves ample space for creativity, innovation and flexibility, yet it is explicit about the eventual outcomes and results. How one wishes that some of the clots in the system who forge qualifications, take bribes and revel in indolence could be rooted out so that our Public Service can be faster, more efficient and more people- friendly in delivering services. Our people should not have reason to shrivel their heads in their armpits when they visit Public Service offices for attention.

The Public Service Commission is doing splendid work and has to be commended for the oversight they provide and the monitoring work they do to see to it that the Public Service is people oriented. [Time expired.]

Mr B MTHEMBU: Mr Chairperson, hon Minister and hon members, I stand and speak in support of Vote 11, the SA Management Development Institute.

One of the key challenges that is central to the successful transformation of the Public Service is the development of a management and leadership that is capable of implementing the policies of the national democratic and developmental state. There is no doubt that our Government has formulated appropriate policies and progressive legislation towards the realisation of a developmental and service-orientated public service. However, the good intentions reflected in these policies will remain an empty dream unless they are matched with public managers who are capable of translating them into the desired outcomes.

The key question that needs to be answered is how best to promote capacity- building and management development in the context where the Public Service is faced with the problem of simultaneously transforming itself, while also transforming the management and delivery of service to the public, and in particular extending basic services to the previously disadvantaged sectors of society.

This is a complex question, and the Government is highly commendable for not falling into the trap of a simplistic approach, reducing a complex problem to an either/or approach. They use both approaches - that is, they continue delivering services to the diverse sectors of our society, whilst simultaneously changing the way these services are delivered. They are surprised by our openness here, because they are still steeped in the old paradigm …

An HON MEMBER: What is that? The 4x4? Is that the old paradigm? Mr B MTHEMBU: … of a linear situation. [Interjections.] A genuine consensus is emerging that successful management involves the ability to manage complexity and diversity in the context of a dynamic policy environment. After all, managers are needed precisely because there are complex questions that need creative and innovative answers. [Interjections.]

Clearly, therefore, the realisation of transformation that is professional, effective, equitable, accountable, transparent, service orientated and representative, calls for a new management paradigm. A series of legislation enacted from 1994 up to, and including, 1999, has effectively deconstructed the old, outdated and highly centralised public administration model, with its dishonest assumptions of neutrality.

The shift from public administration to management is highly commendable for numerous reasons. Key among them are the following: South Africa, like all other countries of this global village, is not immune to the negative impact of globalisation on the Public Service. The public management model appears to be an emergent global strategy to meet the challenges of globalisation. Some of the key components of a new paradigm are consistent with our transformation agenda of the Public Service. The paradigm emphasises the role of public managers in providing high-quality service that the citizens value, advocates increasing managerial autonomy, demands measures and awards organisational and individual performance. This model will thus promote the realisation of a transformed Public Service that is professional, accountable, transparent and service oriented.

We commend the department for having contextualised the emergent global paradigm to fit our political, social and economic situation. This global management paradigm, like any paradigm, is not monolithic, but incorporates various strands. The local implementation of the new paradigm, as reflected in the Public Service Laws Second Amendment Act of 1997, and the Public Finance Management Act of 1999, strengthens the developmental role of the state and provides clear accountability lines.

The elected representatives of the people - that is, the Cabinet Ministers and MECs - are accountable for setting out policy outcomes, while managers are made accountable for clear policy outputs. I think this is an important shift in the sense that it strengthens democracy, unlike the neoliberal notion of the so- called neutral bureaucracy. We expect politicians who are the true elected representatives of the people to devise strategic policies and we expect managers to manage. In a sense we are bringing about a balance to ensure that there is proper, what I may call, ``centralisation in decentralisation’’.

The transformation and reform White Paper has assigned the central role of achieving the Government’s goals in relation to Public Service training and management development to the SA Management Development Institute as the single most important statutory body. We welcome the descheduled Samdi and its absorption as an integral part of the Department for Public Service and Administration. The notion of an independent or neutral institution is inconsistent with the notion of a developmental state. This development will ensure effective alignment between Government policy and training programmes.

Samdi’s new focus on policy analysis and strategic management, change management, human resource development and management, labour relations and financial management constitutes a relevant curriculum which is congruent with the public management model. We commend Samdi for the efforts it is exerting to manage a complex and daunting task while simultaneously transforming itself and managing the EU-funded projects, that is, the Public Management Development Programme. We are also very happy that there is a clear indication that Samdi will be able to meet its target of the financial agreement with the EU.

We also note with satisfaction the launch of the Presidential Strategic Leadership Development Programme in June 2000. The launch brought many serious managers together. [Time expired.] [Applause.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! Before I call the next speaker, I am informed that we have learners and educators from Qingqa Mntwana School in Crossroads with us. I wish to take this opportunity to acknowledge them. They are seated somewhere on the gallery. [Applause.]

Mr B G BELL: Chairperson, fellow MPs, it is my privilege to speak on behalf of the DA in this Budget debate. [Interjections.] But before I start my speech, that I have taken a lot of trouble to write - and I am probably going to run out of time now, because of certain things that have happened

• I would like to make a statement to the hon member Mr R J B Mohlala. I certainly hope he is alive when he reaches my age, so that maybe a youngster will try to insult him the way he tried to insult me. [Interjections.] I am afraid I take it whence it comes. [Interjections.]

Secondly, I would like to correct some figures regarding the current situation in the Western Cape. At the moment, as of yesterday, there are 60 coloured managers in management, 60 Asians, 10 blacks and 117 whites, which is very different to the numbers that we have been given. [Interjections.] I can go into more detail on that if necessary.

Thirdly, I would like to ask the hon Connie September to please check her facts. She must ask the ANC branch of Claremont as to why soccer has not been played at Newlands. [Interjections.] Perhaps she would get the story right there.

I will speak mainly on Samdi and make brief comments on the Public Service Commission and the Department for Public Service and Administration. The aims of Samdi are to provide practical and customer-driven training that can lead to improved performance and service delivery in the public sector. These aims are very commendable and should be encouraged by us all. Since 1999, Samdi has become a schedule 1 department with its own director- general. It is now geared to generate its own funds by charging realistic fees for the training given. In time, Samdi will be able to fund itself.

It is encouraging that Samdi claims to be fully booked until November 2001. Does that mean that no further training courses can be undertaken or is there some place in the plan for new initiatives? Perhaps, to give some advice from my own experience - and perhaps the hon member will listen - I would like to say that in this type of training, unless there is total commitment from senior management, nothing will come of it. Therefore, it is essential that senior management has a major say in course content and supports the newly trained public servants to implement what they have been taught. The general atmosphere and results achieved indicate that training is sorely needed in the Public Service at present.

It was reported that R37 million of donor funds were available to augment their own budgeted amount of R19,4 million. Those donor funds must be reported on and strictly controlled. Also, the funds that Samdi generate from the fees charged must be monitored and ploughed back into training. When one analyses the reported expenditure for the 2000-01 fiscal year, one finds that no money was spent on financial management training. That is amazing. Unless Samdi abdicated their responsibility to others, it means that no financial managers received any assistance in implementing the Public Finance Management Act, which is probably the most far-reaching project that we have ever undertaken.

Samdi is a national initiative and should be supported by all provinces. But that does not mean that they do not have a responsibility to train their own public servants. The Western Cape legislature has established a training facility called Cape Administrative Academy. At this academy, employees are trained throughout the year in all spheres of management. From those courses employees are put onto career paths to set their futures. One of their initiatives is called the Provincial Executive Programme. That programme runs for 12 weeks and consists of groups of 13 candidates. It is very seldom that there is more than one candidate from the non-designated group. Through that training programme, our future senior Public Service servants will be drawn.

I trust that there are similar initiatives in the other provinces. For that reason, the money spent by Samdi is only a portion of the total training budget. As an example, the Western Cape reported that their expenditure is to the tune of R10 million.

To the Minister, I say that we are shocked at the possibility that managers in the public sector may soon be receiving intensive training in China. What is that all about? China’s philosophy is totally different to ours. Unless this ANC-led Government intends changing direction, our managers can learn nothing from them. Samdi can be a management tool to be used by all of us to improve the efficiency of the Public Service and, as a result, improve on the delivery to all our people.

In commenting on our Public Service Commission, I would like to say that it is disturbing that we still talk of African … [Time expired.] [Applause.]

Mrs L MALONEY: Chairperson, Minister for the Public Service and Administration, today we are debating the budget framework of the Public Service and Administration. It is through this budget framework that the public will be able to monitor and evaluate whether the department is keeping to its mandate and target. My speech will focus on Vote No 11 of the department which is the SA Management Development Institute, or Samdi for short.

The aim of the SA Management Development Institute is to provide a practical and customer-driven organisation and to develop intervention that lead to improved performance and service delivery in the public sector. Development and training of senior management is not a stand-alone programme. It is an integrated programme of the Government. Samdi has been given the responsibility to drive this programme, with Director-General Job Mokgoro as the engine of this vehicle.

Developing and training senior managers is a challenge and a future investment for the country as a whole. People must bear in mind that this process cannot be a once-off event. Customer care training is also given by Samdi to senior managers in the Public Service in order to promote the Batho Pele policy in all Government departments. This Batho Pele policy should also be extended to the private sector so that it can understand that caring for people is not the responsibility of the government alone.

The budget of Samdi has been increased by 1% in 2000-2001. We welcome this increase as this shows that the ANC-led Government is committed to making sure that there is professionalism and efficiency in the Public Service.

Like other departments, Samdi had to undergo a transformation process in order to accelerate service delivery. Furthermore, Samdi is required to be self-financing. Therefore, a turnaround strategy was necessary to put Samdi on the right footing. It is this turnaround strategy that assisted Samdi to be more focused and have a clear understanding of the vision and strategies that departments are struggling to develop.

We also welcome the fact that Samdi managed to get an outside donor for certain projects. But, we should guard against ending up in the back seat, allowing donors to dictate terms for us, otherwise we will end up at the wrong destination. I will touch on one of these projects that Samdi has embarked on. In 2000- 01 Samdi developed strategy-development programmes for director-generals and programmes for training and development of ministerial staff. I will focus on a few of these programmes. There is the excellent customer care service for frontline staff. This is an area where the government could be able to measure the Batho Pele policy as the frontline staff are in daily contact with the public. If people do not get the service they want because of the attitude and the bad service of the frontline staff, people assume that the Government is not delivering. I think that special attention should be given to this area. Another important project is the labour relations team being trained to deal with sexual harassment. To me training alone is not enough, without staff support structures in place.

For instance, if one compares one’s training programme on attitude and cultural value, which has only 20 participants, with one’s training programme on human resource management, which has 200 participants, one’s marketing skills should be sharpened in order to attract more people to take up the cause of cultural values. This is a very serious issue and should be compulsory, as we know the kind of public service that we inherited from the apartheid regime. [Applause.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! Hon members, the following member, Mr Sibiya, will be delivering his maiden speech. [Applause.]

Mr M S M SIBIYA: Hon Chairperson, the Public Service Commission bears a tremendous responsibility. The IFP therefore supports the budget which would enable the Public Service Commission to achieve its objectives.

The aim of the PSC is to promote the constitutional values and principles of public service and administration in the public sector. The commission was established in terms section 196 of the Constitution of 1996. This section makes provision for the commission to exercise its powers in order to maintain an effective and efficient public administration, with a high standard of professional ethics. The commission has appointed 14 commissioners, five based in Pretoria and one resident commissioner per province.

Budgetary allocations to the commission have been increased from R44,607 million in the 2000-01 adjustments estimate to R53,013 million in the 2001- 02 budget. The budget will also increase from R55,371 million to R57,955 million over the medium term.

The effectiveness of the commission is determined by the degree to which it communicates with the stakeholders. The core business of the Public Service Commission is to monitor, investigate, evaluate and advise on strategic Public Service issues. It needs research, and analytical and policy skills to perform these functions. While it has made progress in procuring the appropriate skills, the commission still needs to build capacity in these areas.

The commission aims to ensure that coherent and effective research tools and instruments are available. The programme provides for policy formulation by the Minister, the Public Service Commission, the directors- general, corporate services and management. This subprogramme aims to establish a culture of professional and ethical behaviour. An analysis of the financial disclosures by Public Service managers reveals that conflicts of interest will be the focal area of the commission’s work through both monitoring and raising awareness.

Regarding special investigations, this is a newly established subprogramme that manages the execution of special investigations. With regard to the limitations of the programme, in future the tracking capacity will be built in as part of monitoring and evaluating the impact and activities of the commission, in addition to processing employee grievances. The Commission will monitor trends and analyse strategic labour relations issues in the Public Service.

In conclusion, women and the disabled are poorly represented at senior levels of management. Statistics show that only 8,3% of the senior and middle-management levels comprise women, with 0,1% comprising people with disabilities.

The IFP supports the budget. [Applause.]

Mr M R BALOYI: Chairperson, our Public Service is a microcosm of the South African society as a whole - a society with a painful past, complex current challenges and a desired culture of responsibility, responsiveness, accountability and service-delivery orientation.

As the South African society is gradually moving away from its painful past under apartheid rule, so is our Public Service moving closer to the attainment of its ultimate goal. In the past, the Public Service was an instrument of oppression. It was the delivery arm of apartheid policies. It operated in a fragmented manner, was highly secretive and lacked public management programmes.

I am saying some of these things for the benefit of novices like the hon Waters in this House. The Public Service that the ANC-led Government has built has a culture of service, founded on the spirit and letter of the White Paper on service delivery, ie Batho Pele, People First, Vanhu ku sungula.

Hi vula tano hi ri eka pfhumba ro tirhela vanhu leri nga ni xikongomelo xo antswisa vutomi bya vona, mintirho yoleyo yi fanele yi endliwa hi ku tirhisana na vanhu va kona. Leswi hi nga swi fikelela loko tindzawulo ta Mfumo ti tirha hi ku ya hi Tsalwa ra Vanhu ku sungula, People first, Batho Pele, leri vulaka leswaku vaaki va ni mfanelo yo kuma migingiriko leyi va enetaka, hi ndlela yo olova, etindhawini leti va tshamaka kona, va nga, hlwerisiwi hi swilo leswi nga ri ki na xikongomelo xo va pfuna. Va nga heleriwi timbilu loko va vutisisa. Va nga khahliwi ni ku tseketseriwa. Va va ni mfanelo yo kaneta loko va nga enerisiwi hi matirhelo ya vatirhela- mfumo.

Naswona va pfumeleriwa ku koxa ku vonana na murhangeri wa hofisi yihi kumbe yihi loko va lava ku nghenisa mavonele ya vona eka vukorhokeri lebyinene. Hi gimeta mhaka leyi hi ku vula leswaku n’wina vanhu hi n’wina mi nga ta hi pfuna ku xopaxopa matirhelo ya tindzawulo, leswaku xivono xa Mfumo wa ANC xi fikeleriwa, ku nga ku antswisa vutomi ni ku lwisa vusiwana.

Tirhisanani na vahubyankulu lava va nga na tihofisi emigangeni ya n’wina, xikan’we na tikhanselara ta muganga, leswaku va mi pfuna ku twisisa timhaka ta vanhu ku sungula. (Translation of Tsonga paragraphs follows.)

[That is what we say to the Public Service responsible for the programme of providing services to the people with the aim of improving the lives of their people. Such services should be delivered in collaboration with those people. What we have achieved at the time when Government departments started working and in accordance to the document called People First, which stated that citizens have a right to benefit from the activities in a satisfactory manner, in any easy way, in their respective residential areas. They should not be delayed by things that have no objectives in so far as assistance is concerned. People should not lose patience whenever questions are posed. They should not be talked down to or insulted, nor treated violently. They have the right to object when they are not satisfied with the service rendered by Government officers.

They should be allowed to contact any chief officer of any department whenever they need to make any input of their views on the good delivery of service. We conclude this matter by saying that you, the public, are the ones who are going to assist us in scrutinising the way our departments are performing in order to enable the Government to achieve its objective, to improve quality of life and to fight against poverty.

Work hand in hand with the MPs in your local offices, together with councillors in your communities so that they may assist to understand what ``People First’’ is all about.]

Managing Public Service transformation is a process faced with challenges. The Minister of Public Service and Administration alluded to this on 12 February recently, when she said that many of the difficulties that society as a whole is experiencing with aspects of transformation, are also hampering the Public Service in making rapid progress in pursuit of the transformation agenda.

The ANC said in its 1999 election manifesto that there were huge difficulties that we must address, and that it was only the ANC that had the vision and determination to attack the root causes of such difficulties. I hope hon Bell is listening. We want to reiterate this statement today, and to call on all parties and individuals that are not yet there to join us to accelerate service delivery.

Hi ri eka un’wana ni un’wana, i ndlopfu ya hina. Ndzi ke ndzi nga tsundzuxana na vaaki va muganga wa Phalaborwa, xikanwe na vatirhi va hofisi ya majistarata wa Giyani, leswaku va hoxa xandla eka ku antswisa xiyimo xa matshamelo ya vona. Hikuva loko va nga endli tano, va ta sala va komba hi rintiho swilo swi va hundzile. (Translation of Tsonga paragraph follows.)

[We say it is the problem of all of us, everybody’s. I once reminded people of Phalaborwa communities, together with officers of the Giyani magisterial area, to assist with the improvement of their conditions, because if that is not done, they are going to regret it and then it would be too late.]

It is against this background that reference is also made to what the parties to the Public Service Jobs Summit Framework Agreement observed in Pietersburg earlier this year, namely that the challenges of managing a transformation process in the Public Service were upon each one of them. I wish we can all join them in that understanding and venture. Whereas some of the difficulties are generic realities characteristic of changing societies and particularly expected to exist in the South African context, some of them, such as resistance to change, are remnants of apartheid legacies.

Of course, I know that we are living in two worlds, one of optimism, acceptance and hope, and another of pessimism, denial and despair. I think if one were to ask hon Waters and hon Brian Bell the question in which world exactly they find themselves, they would agree with me that they are pessimists. I know that such a division compels some of the parties on my left to be sensitive about our transformation programme, particularly because it destroys their historic comfort zones.

They always try very hard to convince the public out there that our policies are not taking this country anywhere. When they hear of service delivery success stories, such as the establishment of multipurpose community centres in most of our provinces where service delivery is made conveniently accessible, they always bring arguments foreign to service delivery initiatives, simply because they want to divert the attention of the public away from such developments. [Interjections.]

What is more serious about these pessimists - I am becoming convinced - is that they have planted their agents in the Public Service with a view to fail the transformation process. [Interjections.] More often than not, one hears of such officials who neglect their duties and later turn around as so-called whistleblowers. They point at the very same duties they neglected and suggest that there is no effective service delivery in the Public Service. They feed their big-mouthed, restless political masters who have no conviction to serve the cause of transformation.

Some of these officials are so negative that they rebuff people who need their service and tell them to blame Batho Pele for whatever they have as an excuse for not assisting them, or they even tell them to blame the Government. What is frustrating is to note that some of these officials pessimistic that have a negative attitude, are at management level. These officials are sometimes assigned responsibilities for change. When they do so, they make it a point that those who are affected are exposed to the extreme harshness of the process, even if there are viable alternatives. Theirs is to prove the Government wrong.

I thank the Minister for the envisaged customer satisfaction surveys and public participation forums in the public service. These, we believe, will give an opportunity for people out there to speak for themselves. The citizens’ report the hon the Minister referred to in her speech is a positive development.

I am calling on these pessimists - and I hope Waters and Bell are listening

• to join us. By doing so they will have found themselves again, as South Africans. Of course, optimists such as me need not be too complacent, as if policies alone will deliver public services. We must vigilantly support processes that are put in place and ensure that they are implemented, as the main focus of the ANC is now more on policy implementation than formulation.

In conclusion, I want to call on the hon the Minister to facilitate a process that will expedite the implementation of an integrated service delivery strategy that takes on board the local government sphere. As we support the Vote, we want to remind those pessimists I referred to earlier, such as hon Bell, that it was not enough for him just to say that the hon Connie September need to check the facts. He actually did not move far enough and this is not because he does not want to, but simply because he knows that his provincial government in the Western Cape has failed dismally by taking a decision not to implement the Land Use Planning Ordinance Amendment Act (Cape). [Applause.]

The MINISTER FOR THE PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION: Chairperson, I want to start off by first saying various thank-yous, because there is a whole range of issues to raise and to which to respond.

I would like to start off by thanking the chairperson, Comrade Nathi Nhleko, for the leadership that he has given the portfolio committee. I would like to thank him because we have seen a debate today, from certain members, that has clearly reflected an intention to study and understand the implications of the transformation of the Public Service, understanding that action for change and change for action is about the long haul.

I would also like to thank Prof Stan Sangweni, the chairperson of the Public Service Commission, the deputy chairperson Mr Johnny Ernstzen and other members of the Commission for the roles that they are playing as part of an independent body to ensure that there is monitoring and oversight. This team is clearly not going to be intimidated and will look more closely at the complexities around representivity, the nature of service delivery, the Batho Pele project and where it is at.

After all, Public Service and Administration and the transformation of the state is about ensuring that there are better services for everyone. It is about ensuring that we reach unserved and underserved areas. It is about ensuring that we redress a past that we have fought against and about providing a better life. In doing this, we need to ensure that we not only commend those who are really working towards this change, but that we also deal with those who are not contributing to change. I would like to acknowledge the Cosatu delegation, led by Thulas Nxesi today, and other union delegations. I am not quite sure who is leading them, but nevertheless, I would like to thank them for being present in the gallery.

I raise this because we have had various irresponsible and unparliamentary comments here today. We have heard comments from, amongst others, the hon Mike Waters, who has made statements here that clearly reflect that he has no intention of moving beyond anecdote or even demonstrating a semblance of responsibility in how he addresses issues. [Interjections.] He, amongst other things - and hon members heard him - said that corruption was spreading like HIV/Aids. What kind of parliamentarian or politician would say this? Mike Waters is clearly very young. Twenty-one years ago I formed part of the active contingent of the ANC. Where was Mike Waters then? He was probably a little blighter.

He has no understanding of the kind of change this country needs. He also has no understanding of where we come from and he has very little understanding of where we should be going. [Applause.] I raise this here today, because we should understand that as we talk about change, and as we put vision on the table, this vision needs to be followed up and taken forward through implementation. It requires a particular machine. Some of his hon colleagues are probably part of that machine and yet responsible for spiking certain changes. [Applause.]

He had the audacity and the temerity to call senior managers party hacks. What did they do with senior managers in the provincial metropole? [Interjections.] They got rid of efficient people and placed others there. They probably claim that some of those are efficient and effective, and we hope so, because our people need to ensure that they have people who are prepared for the long haul, people who are to effect action for change and also willing to ensure that we do not root out members because they do not carry a DA card, but that we look at what is required at this point for the Public Service.

I would like to encourage hon members to go and look at the senior management service. They should also look at what we are putting on the table and issues of competency profiling. In the gallery today we have members of the Public Service. These members are part of a contingent who are trying to do their best. There is somebody called Mandy Smith who is up there in the public gallery, who works quite hard. Yet she hears scurrilous statements from individuals who do not care about the implications of anecdote and generalisations. They use anecdote and make it a reality.

Let us get the hon Waters to put on the table the data that says corruption is spreading like HIV/Aids. Let us see it. Let us not just hear it, because I said earlier today that what we have is a disjuncture between perception and reality. That is precisely why we are involved in the UN’s programme to actually reflect, in a real sense, on the extent of corruption within the Public Service, against an awareness that it is a global problem. We are not dealing with it to respond and feed personal needs. We are not here to do feel-good things and hence, if members recall, I talked about two issues. [Interjections.]

There are some members on my left-hand side, who, if they could listen more, if they could listen to hear, would understand. But they actually just do not care and I hope that the South African people will be able to appreciate that change will never come from that quarter. [Applause.] However, let me say to hon members that it is not about coming here and defending a percentage point difference on representivity. If we are not representative, let us say so - which is what we did today. Let us say we need to work towards that change; let us reflect on what the complexities are with service delivery; and let us state what the system’s processes are that we need to put in place to turn around the Public Service.

Let us not come here and attempt to sound witty and talk about that crowd over there.'' It is exactly of what the hon Bell objected to when he said he hoped other members would remember when they are his age. So, hon Bell should start with the youth on his side. When the youth talk about the types on this side, what does it reflect? Does it reflect a sense of a lack of understanding? Does it still reflect the attitude ofswart gevaar’’ toward those of us who are in the executive? Does it reflect the fact that he was never a democrat? He does not understand it. He does not know what it means to be part of the force of progress. He merely sees our people as cannon fodder; we are not cannon fodder. The South African people are not cannon fodder and the South African people need to ensure that transformation does and will take place and that they form part of this process.

Let me go further. The hon Bell got a bit nervous. I was worried that we would have a serious case of angina, but there are doctors in the House. [Interjections.] He was reflecting:

Minister, we hear that you are going to train public servants in the People’s Republic of China. There is nothing to learn.

Good grief! Mr Bell should just open his mind and read. He does not need to go to the People’s Republic of China, he must read. And he must read about the fact that the People’s Republic of China has engaged in a massive process of transformation. They are transforming the economy, and currently they are in the process of building a socialist market economy and they are currently in the fourth part of a 20-year period comprising of four five- year plans. It was a process where they very clearly engaged in much discussion to look at how they could transform that economy in order to generate job creation. [Interjections.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! Hon members, would you please give the Minister a chance to reply.

The MINISTER: We need to look at how we can learn from other societies that are involved in real transformation. In this instance, the slumbering giants that actually matter in the global economy and global change are saying: What lessons can we learn? We need to look at the lessons around local government transformation in the People’s Republic of China. We need to look at how they got involved in enormous capacity-building programmes to skill and re-skill public servants.

We say that because I raised it in my input. If they bothered to listen, if they were not whinging and howling on my left-hand side, and if they were not pre-occupied with themselves and their images - they should bring mirrors to Parliament, to keep themselves occupied and silent - they would have heard me when I said that we have identified areas where there are strategic skills shortages and there is a need for intervention.

If there is one thing this Government is bold about, it is the vision that is on the table. It is also bold about the interventions required to take it forward and about acknowledging the difficulties of ensuring that this machine is skilled to deal with the resourcing and provision of services for the South African people, people who were underserved in the past.

There is no public servant who before 1994 knew how to service all South Africans who could access public services, because nobody was focused on servicing the whole. It was always fragmented and targeted in a stratified manner. We said that this would change, and we are bold enough to make the difference. We do not squeak, we do not crow, we do not sit here and cross our hands. I would like to make reference to a Spanish proverb that goes: It is not the same to talk about bulls than to be in the bull ring.

This crowd has been talking about bulls all the time. [Interjections.] I want to go further and make another reference. There is a Chinese proverb, even though it is uncomfortable for many. [Interjections.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order!

The MINISTER: They say: If you want to plan for a day, then plant rice. If you want to plan for ten years, plant trees. If you want to plan for a life- time, build men - in the nonsexist sense. I think this is what we are about. We are not just about planting rice.

Now I will conclude with a Pedi quote. It is a little bit difficult, but I will try: Ditau tsa hloka seboka di sitwa ke nare e hlotsa [If a pride of lions is not united they will never catch the prey.] It says that a group of lions without proper consensus will fail to catch even a limping buffalo, and this is what we are about. [Interjections.] [Applause.]

I would like to invite all the people on the gallery to join us in the Old Assembly afterwards for a meal and some music, and that also goes for members of the House who will not have heartburn. [Laughter.] [Applause.]

Debate concluded.

The House adjourned at 17:23. ____

            ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS

ANNOUNCEMENTS:

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces:

1. The Speaker and the Chairperson:

 (1)    The following Bill was introduced by the Minister of Trade and
     Industry in the National Assembly on 17 May 2001 and referred to
     the Joint Tagging Mechanism (JTM) for classification in terms of
     Joint Rule 160:


     (i)     Patents Amendment Bill [B 24 - 2001] (National Assembly -
          sec 75) [Explanatory summary of Bill and prior notice of its
          introduction published in Government Gazette No 22249 of 24
          April 2001.]


     The Bill has also been referred to the Portfolio Committee on
     Trade and Industry of the National Assembly.

1. The Speaker and the Chairperson:

 (1)    The Joint Tagging Mechanism (JTM) on 17 May 2001 in terms of
     Joint Rule 160(3), classified the following Bills as section 75
     Bills:


     (i)     Road Accident Fund Amendment Bill [B 21 - 2001] (National
              Assembly - sec 75).


     (ii)    Financial Institutions (Protection of Funds) Bill [B 23 -
              2001] (National Assembly - sec 75).

COMMITTEE REPORTS:

National Assembly:

1. Report of the Portfolio Committee on Arts, Culture, Science and Technology on the Cultural Laws Amendment Bill [B 45 - 2000] (National Assembly - sec 75), dated 15 May 2001:

   The Portfolio Committee on Arts, Culture, Science and Technology, having considered the subject of the Cultural Laws Amendment Bill [B 45 - 2000] (National Assembly - sec 75), referred to it and classified by the Joint Tagging Mechanism as a section 75 Bill, reports the Bill with amendments [B 45A - 2000].

2. Report of the Portfolio Committee on Arts, Culture, Science and Technology on the Cultural Laws Second Amendment Bill [B 46 - 2000] (National Assembly - sec 76), dated 11 May 2001:

   The Portfolio Committee on Arts, Culture, Science and Technology, having considered the subject of the Cultural Laws Second Amendment Bill [B 46 - 2000] (National Assembly - sec 76), referred to it and classified by the Joint Tagging Mechanism as a section 76 Bill, reports the Bill with amendments [B 46A - 2000].

   The Committee recommends that the House request the Department of Arts, Culture, Science and Technology to investigate whether or not legislation is necessary -

   (a) on essential national standards in respect of the national estate;

   (b) to prevent the permanent removal of objects or collections of artistic, historical and scientific value from the Republic;

   (c) to facilitate the recovery of objects and collections contemplated in (b) which were removed from the Republic; and

   (d) to empower Parliament to oversee (b) and (c).

   The Committee further recommends that the Department be requested to report on the above within 14 days of the adoption of this Report by the House.

 Report to be considered.

1. Report of the Portfolio Committee on Trade and Industry on the Export Credit and Foreign Investments Re-insurance Amendment Bill [B 19 - 2001] (National Assembly - sec 75), dated 16 May 2001:

   The Portfolio Committee on Trade and Industry, having considered the subject of the Export Credit and Foreign Investments Re- insurance Amendment Bill [B 19 - 2001] (National Assembly - sec 75), referred to it and classified by the Joint Tagging Mechanism as a section 75 Bill, reports the Bill with amendments [B 19A - 2001].