THURSDAY, 31 MAY 2001 __

                PROCEEDINGS OF THE NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
                                ____

The House met at 15:30.

The Speaker took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayers or meditation.

ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS - see col 000.

                      LATE START TO PROCEEDINGS

The SPEAKER: Order! Hon members, I apologise for the late start, but the television channels are showing Minister Moosa addressing the House. I have been sitting upstairs wondering how the House has managed to start with the Deputy Speaker. So, our apologies! They are showing an old programme. [Laughter.]

                          NOTICES OF MOTION Mr D V BLOEM: Madam Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the ANC:

That the House -

(1) notes that the hon Ken Andrew yesterday referred to ANC members of Parliament as thugs;

(2) believes that this conduct is not only unparliamentary but is also an onslaught …

The SPEAKER: Order! Hon member, that allegation was withdrawn at the request of the Chair. [Interjections.]

Mr D V BLOEM: The hon member withdrew it? That is fine if he withdrew it. [Laughter.]

The SPEAKER: You cannot raise it again. [Interjections.] Order!

Mr R J HEINE: Madam Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move:

That the House -

(1) notes the revelation of the sickening amounts of money paid to Coleman Andrews during his term as CEO of SA Airways, in that -

   (a)  R200 million was paid tax-free to Andrews during his two and a
       half year term with SAA;


   (b)  his remuneration, the appointment of other consultancies and
       decisions taken during his tenure at the SAA smacks of nepotism,
       blatant waste of taxpayers' money and poor business decisions;
       and


   (c)  the much trumpeted profit of the SAA was actually gained through
       the sale of assets rather than sustainable operational
       improvements; and

(2) urges the ANC to explain to the 28,5% of households living in poverty what is going on if such huge amounts are allowed to be squandered.

Mrs L R MBUYAZI: Madam Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the IFP: That the House -

(1) notes that the National Botanical Institute’s climate change research group has found that global climate change has already started;

(2) further notes that global climate change will have profound effects on South Africa, among them a temperature increase in the order of 2°C to 3°C and a general drop in rainfall in the order of 10%; and

(3) calls on the National Botanical Institute to continue its sterling work on global climate change with a view to designing effective countermeasures to the effects of global climate change on South Africa.

Mr L T LANDERS: Madam Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the ANC:

That the House - (1) notes that the Truth and Reconciliation Commission closes its business today, 31 May 2001;

(2) further notes that the TRC is working on a final report, which includes its recommendations and the tasks remaining for the committees dealing with human rights violations, reparation and rehabilitation;

(3) believes that the TRC played an important and critical role in national reconciliation, national unity and the building of a new nation;

(4) congratulates the people of South Africa for reporting atrocities; and

(5) calls on all South Africans to continue to work towards healing the wounds of the past, national reconciliation and empowerment of victims of human rights abuses.

[Applause.]

Adv A H GAUM: Madam Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move: That the House -

(1) notes that -

   (a)  the moratorium on the release of crime statistics has finally
       been lifted;


   (b)  the new statistics once again indicate increases in serious
       violent crimes like robbery with aggravating circumstances,
       other robberies, assault and housebreaking, and that crime in
       general also increased during 2000;


   (c)  despite the indication that certain crime trends have
       stabilised, it is of no comfort to South Africans, because all
       crime levels are still unacceptably high and the situation with
       regard to these crimes is just as bad as before; and


   (d)  the latest crime statistics confirm the Government's inability
       to protect the citizens of South Africa; and

(2) urges the Government to meet the demands of South Africans and to take control of the crime situation, because it cannot use the moratorium anymore to cover up its failure to combat crime.

[Applause.]

Mr M J ELLIS: Madam Speaker, on a point of order: Is it parliamentary for the hon Mr Momberg, who is about to become an ambassador to Greece, to call the hon Mr Gaum a ``low life?’’ [Interjections.]

The SPEAKER: Order! Apart from your pre-empting us as to what the title of Mr Momberg is …

Mr M J ELLIS: Indeed, Madam Speaker, but I still do believe that it is unparliamentary to use the term ``low life’’.

The SPEAKER: Order! So far, we have not regarded it as unparliamentary. I think we should leave it as part of the normal exchanges until it becomes so prevalent that I have to reconsider that ruling. [Interjections.]

Mr M J ELLIS: I suspect that once Mr Momberg has gone we will not be using it any more. [Interjections.] [Laughter.]

Mr M E MABETA: Madam Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the UDM:

That the House -

(1) notes that the fundamental divisions between the poor and the rich in South Africa follow racial lines;

(2) further notes that our constitutional democracy provides a firm basis for the elimination of all forms of racial prejudice and inequality;

(3) congratulates all South Africans, black and white, who have walked the first mile with their South African brothers and sisters, and encourages their continued patriotism;

(4) since all South Africans have accepted this new democratic basis of our society, calls on all leaders of political parties and the Government to reject the further racialisation of problems and the fuelling of racial stereotypes and prejudice through attacks on racial groups as suggested in the alleged comments by the President in a London newspaper;

(5) also notes that the denial by whites that most of their material privileges derive from their historical standing in the socioeconomic relations of our society hardens existing negative racial stereotypes; and

(6) calls on all South Africans to join in partnership to set free the creative power inherent in our diversity, so that South Africa can hope to solve its racial tensions through courageous leadership, clean governance and media that are objective, balanced and committed to the advancement of our democracy.

Ms X C MAKASI: Madam Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the ANC:

That the House -

(1) notes that gang-related violence on the Cape Flats in the Western Cape has spiralled over the past few months;

(2) further notes that the police are still locked up in traditionally white areas, whilst communities are terrorised by marauding gangs in the DP-New NP-controlled Western Cape;

(3) believes that this is a reflection of preserving white interests and privileges at the expense of the majority in the Western Cape; and

(4) calls on the people of the Western Cape to put more pressure on the DP-New NP-led government to provide safety and security for all the people irrespective of race and colour. [Interjections.] [Applause.]

Rev K R J MESHOE: Madam Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move:

That the House -

(1) notes that almost 200 Christians and Muslim schoolchildren gathered yesterday morning at the Cape Town Civic Centre, to express their opposition to the Unicity Council’s plan to endorse the promotion of Cape Town as a sex-tourist destination of Africa;

(2) notes with great interest that the DA and the ANC voted for the first time together against the ACDP motion calling for the promotion of Cape Town as a family-friendly city;

(3) warns the DA and the ANC that if they legalise prostitution against the wishes of millions of Christians and morally upright people of other faiths who supported them thus far, then they will be digging their own graves;

(4) further warns them that no amount of politicking, deception and lying will convince Christians that the DA and the ANC care about their wishes and opinions; and

(5) calls on all God-fearing Christians and religious communities to distance themselves from political parties such as the ANC and the DA that undermine their values and religious beliefs, and start supporting the ACDP, that cares for the dignity of women and children, and fights for the promotion and protection of family values in our nation.

[Applause.]

Mnr C AUCAMP: Mevrou die Speaker, ek gee hiermee kennis dat ek op die volgende sittingsdag namens die AEB sal voorstel:

Dat die Huis -

(1) daarvan kennis neem dat -

   (a)  dit vandag, 31 Mei, presies 40 jaar is nadat Suid-Afrika 'n
       republiek geword het;


   (b)  hierdie dag van besondere betekenis is en deur alle Suid-
       Afrikaners gedenk behoort te word as die dag waarop Suid-Afrika
       finaal van die koloniale juk bevry is; en


   (c)  die feit dat Suid-Afrika kragtens sy Grondwet bekend staan as
       die Republiek van Suid-Afrika, die waarde bevestig wat 31 Mei
       1961 vir alle Suid-Afrikaners behoort te hê;

(2) dit vreemd vind dat waar daar gedurig gepraat word van die juk van kolonialisme en apartheid, Suid-Afrika se kalender slegs die dae gedenk wat hoogtepunte was in die stryd teen apartheid, terwyl die hoogtepunt van die eeue-oue stryd teen koloniale imperialisme prakties genereer word;

(3) besef dat wat 31 Mei van nog groter betekenis maak, is dat dit aanvanklik met die Vrede van Vereeniging op 31 Mei 1902 die dag van neerlaag teen kolonialisme was, maar 59 jaar later die dag van die bevryding daarvan; en

(4) ooreenkomstig die verskeidenheid van Suid-Afrika, die reg sal respekteer van diegene vir wie die dag van besondere betekenis is. (Translation of Afrikaans notice of motion follows.)

[Mr C AUCAMP: Madam Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day I shall move on behalf of the AEB:

That the House -

(1) notes that -

   (a)  today, 31 May, it is exactly 40 years since South Africa became
       a republic;


   (b)  this day is of particular significance and should be
       commemorated by all South Africans as the day on which South
       Africa was finally liberated from the yoke of colonialism; and


   (c)  the fact that in terms of its Constitution South Africa is known
       as the Republic of South Africa serves as confirmation of the
       regard that all South Africans should have for 31 May 1961;

(2) finds is strange that, while constant reference is made to the yoke of colonialism and apartheid, South Africa’s calendar only commemorates the days which were highlights in the struggle against apartheid, while the highlight of the centuries-old struggle against colonial imperialism is virtually ignored;

(3) realises that 31 May is made even more significant by the fact that initially, with the Peace of Vereeniging on 31 May 1902, it was the day of the defeat by colonialism, but that 59 years later it became the day of liberation from it; and

(4) in accordance with the diversity of South Africa, will respect the right of those for whom this day is of particular importance.]

Mrs B TINTO: Madam Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the ANC:

That the House -

(1) notes that -

   (a)  the DA-controlled Cape Town Council has unilaterally announced,
       during the budget speech, the dropping of the differentiated
       rates system in favour of an across-the-board 7% rates increase;


   (b)  the differentiated system is a result of a Cape High Court
       decision;


   (c)  this inhumane decision will affect the lives of poor people, who
       already struggle to pay their rates, negatively; and


   (d)  the blundering mayor, Peter Marais, has insulted poor people by
       calling the budget ``a value-for-money people's budget'';

(2) believes that the DA reaffirmed its commitment to perpetuating the injustices of apartheid by victimising the poor and favouring the rich; and

(3) calls on the DA to show some compassion for the poor.

[Applause.]

Mr W J SEREMANE: Madam Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move: That the House -

(1) notes -

   (a)  the commendable and candid way in which President Mbeki admitted
       that Minister Tshwete had been wrong to publicly accuse and
       smear Messrs Phosa, Ramaphosa and Sexwale;


   (b)  that Minister Tshwete has still not admitted that his mistake
       was thoughtless, reckless and very damaging; and


   (c)  that the candid admission by the President exposes the
       shallowness and slavishness of the tributes paid to Minister
       Tshwete by ANC MPs on the portfolio committee; and

(2) resolves that the President should take some more satisfactory and stringent action against Minister Tshwete to demonstrate that there is proper discipline in the Cabinet.

[Interjections.] [Applause.] Mr A M MPONTSHANE: Madam Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the IFP:

That the House -

(1) notes -

   (a)  and sympathises with the learners of Manzomthombo High School in
       the Western Cape who were downgraded to previous grades;


   (b)  with concern that such downgrading is the result of the
       fictitious results which were awarded to 150 Grade 10 learners
       by a contracted educator who, in a very irresponsible manner,
       failed to mark the learners' examination scripts; and


   (c)  that this constitutes a serious breach of professional conduct
       and that it is gross negligence of duty on the part of the
       educator concerned; and

(2) therefore calls on the South African Council of Educators to take immediate disciplinary action against the educator concerned.

Miss P S SEKGOBELA: Madam Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the ANC:

That the House -

(1) notes that the hon Ms Ntombazana Botha has been appointed as the Deputy Minister for Provincial and Local Government;

(2) further notes that Ms Sakhile Nyoni has been appointed as Operations Manager in the Civil Aviation Authority;

(3) believes that these appointments affirm the commitment of the ANC-led Government to the empowerment of women; and

(4) welcomes the appointment of these patriots to these important positions. [Applause.]

                        CHILD PROTECTION WEEK

                         (Draft Resolution)

The DEPUTY CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Madam Speaker, I move without notice:

That the House -

(1) notes that this is Child Protection Week;

(2) further notes statistics that indicate that one in three girls and one in five boys will be abused by someone they know;

(3) recognises that children rely on adults to protect their rights and if these rights are abused by family members or care-givers they are often powerless to deal with such abuse;

(4) commits itself to eradicating this social evil; and (5) calls on all members of the House to offer support and assistance, through their constituency work, to victims of family abuse and violence.

Agreed to.

        NATIONAL COUNCIL FOR LIBRARY AND INFORMATION SERVICES

            (Consideration of Bill and of Report thereon)

Order disposed of without debate.

Report adopted and Bill agreed to.

                         APPROPRIATION BILL

Debate on Vote No 5 - Provincial and Local Government:

The MINISTER FOR PROVINCIAL AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT: Madam Speaker, hon members, we are confirmed by history as a generation that straddles what went before and that which was envisaged. As we stand in the early morning of the age of democracy, and as we see the ancient sufferings of our people finally bearing fruit, we become increasingly aware of the difficult task that lies ahead. The difficulties notwithstanding, we are sustained in our resolve by the knowledge that we are laying foundations for a society whose contours we can as yet only dimly see.

Over the past few years this House used a good part of its proceedings to define into existence a new system of local government. We are now in the process of putting the pieces together, both conceptually and in practice. We do this, mindful of the fact that our task is to bring political decision-making close to the everyday concerns of citizens. We see the transformation of local government as an intrinsic element of the restructuring of the South African state. We also believe that development must define the agenda for the restructuring of the state. To us good governance and sustainable development are twin aspects of a single equation.

Ours is a transformation which seeks to put us in the best possible position to deal with the persistence of endemic poverty. We have a duty to provide what was lacking, to find remedies for absence. There ought to be no polarity of views as to what caused these problems. The period between 1948 and 1994 will go down in the annals of history as the five decades of uneven development. As we look at South Africa today, we see a certain geographical congruence between areas which were hitherto designated either as black townships or as homelands, and the areas in which people live in conditions of abject poverty. These are the artefacts of apartheid, produced by the NP at the height of its glory.

All of us, members of the ruling party, members of the opposition parties, as well as traditional leaders, will be judged by one thing and one thing only: whether what we do helps to lift the masses of our people out of poverty. This is a matter which this House must debate, and debate honestly. We must be prepared to tell each other the difficult truth in order to advance the cause of democracy. According to the Municipal Infrastructure Investment Framework of the year 2000, the backlog in the delivery of water services in urban areas is 10%, whereas in the rural areas it is 39,2%; the backlog in the delivery of sanitation services in urban areas is 25,8% and in rural areas 75,8%; the backlog in the delivery of refuse removal services in urban areas stands at 18,3% and in the rural areas it stands at 53,3%; and the backlog in the development of acceptable roads in urban areas is 16% while in rural areas it is 42,7%.

The redemarcation of municipal boundaries and the establishment of municipalities where none existed before have given us the institutional means to tackle this problem. We now have an unprecedented opportunity better to attack poverty, to bring economic opportunities to the people and to extend service delivery to under-serviced communities.

In my interaction with a wide range of municipalities I have become acutely aware of the increased stress the recent changes have placed on local institutions and resources. This has brought into sharp relief the necessity for the national and provincial spheres of government to lend systematic support to municipalities.

We have an obligation speedily to create certainty in local government. We must settle the issue of how powers and functions are to be distributed between local municipalities and district municipalities. This issue arises out of the constitutional requirement to determine the allocation of powers and functions within the local government sphere. The key issue is to distribute powers and functions between these two municipal categories such that things are done at the most appropriate level. This must take into account issues of both capacity and availability of resources.

The process of determining how powers and functions are to be distributed within the local government sphere is a complex one. This is so because local government is not a sphere existing in isolation. It is part of a multisphered system of government, a system which possesses a complex combination of relative autonomy and symbiotic interdependence. Hon members will therefore understand why we are approaching this matter with some care. In this the Ministry is working closely with the Municipal Demarcation Board, the SA Local Government Association and the MECs responsible for local government.

By choice, Parliament elected to mix constitutional democracy and tradition into a cocktail that seeks to give everyone a place in the South African sun. The detail of how the mix is to be done was left to national legislation. That legislation, which is envisaged in section 212 of the Constitution, is what Government has been trying to bring into life.

Some in this House as well as others outside the House are calling on Government to move speedily to meet the demands of our traditional leaders. It must be recalled that this debate, the debate regarding the role of traditional leaders, is not new. As a matter of fact, the debate was spawned by the introduction of our country’s Constitution and it was invigorated by the prospective inauguration of the new local government system. This fact alone explains why this matter is not one that should be resolved bilaterally between Government and traditional leaders. It is a matter which has a bearing on the nature and character of our democracy and therefore it cannot be transferred away into the peripheries of Parliament.

As Government, we consistently insisted on two things: Firstly, that we shall do whatever Government needs to do, including formulating policy and drafting the requisite Bill for submission to Parliament, whereafter Parliament must decide; and secondly, that the process of policy formulation and law-making will, as usual, be a consultative one, involving all interested parties in civil society.

The issue therefore is about determining a role and place for the institution of traditional leadership. As we approach this task we must bear in mind that in our situation we do not have a homogenous tradition which a single organisation or party can justly claim to represent. Indeed, tradition is characterised by an internal diversity which must be properly understood before decisions are taken.

As they participate in the current debate, many are making the mistake of failing to distinguish traditional leaders from tradition itself. In the first instance, we must see traditional leaders as human beings who are sometimes prone to be utility maximising. This is not in itself wrong. However, Parliament must set a limit to such ambitions as interest groups in society might have. In a democracy parliament has an obligation to be responsive to the aspirations of the people, but also to socialise all of us to accept that we shall get from democratic society only that which democracy can afford to give us.

Some parties who were involved in the drafting of our Constitution have pretended that they are participating in this debate, when in fact they are not. They have confined themselves to blaming Government for failing to address the concerns of traditional leaders. With regard to the actual substance of the debate, these parties have chosen to maintain an ominously dignified silence. Their silence does not elude scientific assessment. It is a silence grounded in strategic motives. They feel safer in hiding the logic of their actions than in explaining them.

I recently met a delegation from the KwaZulu-Natal Church Leaders Group who were asked by Inkosi Mzimela to intervene in what is wrongly described as a dispute between Government and traditional leaders. I sincerely believe that in agreeing to intervene, church leaders are moved by concern for our country. However, I do think that it is important for all of us, including religious leaders, to try to understand issues of this world in their proper context.

At the centre of the debate are issues of concern to many people, both as individuals and as interest groups. Anybody who wishes to intervene will have to take into account the views of groups as diverse as the Commission for Gender Equality, the National Land Committee, the SA National Civic Organisation, the SA Law Commission, the Congress of South Africa Trade Unions and the SA Local Government Association. I am here just mentioning some of the groups that made submissions both to the portfolio committee and to the Ministry and the department on this matter.

Having consulted as extensively as we could, the Ministry is now ready to report back to Cabinet and to ask Cabinet for authority to submit a Bill to Parliament sooner rather than later. The Bill will define the role to be played by the institution of traditional leadership in the interim while we proceed with the consultation process aimed at formulating the White Paper. The White Paper will then provide us with the policy framework for permanent legislation. All this can and must be achieved in the course of this year.

The statistics contained in the Municipal Infrastructure Investment Framework, speak of the disparities for which our country is legendary. They also confirm that the urban areas are the vanguard sector of our economy, while the rural areas constitute the rearguard. The wall-to-wall system of local government will guarantee that, unlike in the past, the rural areas are not excluded from the modernising current of democracy.

Through the Local Economic Development Programme and the Consolidated Municipal Infrastructure Programme, municipalities are seeking to build sustainable communities. In this regard, I am happy to announce that a 13- module LED training programme is being prepared as an element of the broader Local Government Capacity Building Programme. The training programme will be piloted through nine provincial workshops in July and August 2001, to which all municipalities will be invited.

The Consolidated Municipal Infrastructure Programme, together with the Local Economic Development Fund, constitute the flagship of the department’s developmental work. For the current financial year a total of R958 million has been allocated for these programmes. The expenditure of these funds was a direct capital investment in the municipalities concerned and its implementation provided an economic stimulus contributing to job creation and poverty relief. This can be illustrated by the fact that the LED projects created more than 3 000 jobs at an average cost of R23 000 per full-time job. This is equal to in excess of 3 million person days of employment created on CMIP projects. In addition, in excess of 600 small, medium and micro enterprises were utilised.

A further positive factor which contributes towards further long-term developmental impact is the amount of capacity building which was incorporated into the programmes. This amounts to human resource training days in excess of 120 000. The combined allocations for the next three years increase to R1 069 million, R1 256 million and R1 524 million respectively. This represents a 59% growth in allocation over the Medium- Term Expenditure Framework period.

Meanwhile, over 80% of municipalities countrywide have completed and adopted interim integrated development plans. The integrated development plans are instruments that guide strategic   decision-making in municipalities. They also form the basis for formulating municipal budgets and are a tool for amalgamating municipalities. All municipalities must adopt final integrated development plans by the end of March 2002. The department will also be running a nationwide training programme on the new IDP approach. To date more than 220 professional planners have been trained throughout the country at various centres. Over the next three months 560 councillors will be trained, as well as 284 managers, 850 local government sector specialists and 300 national and provincial sector specialists.

The department’s programmes must not be seen as stand-alone entities. They are part of Government’s two separate but complementary macro strategies which go by the names of the Integrated Sustainable Rural Development Strategy and the Urban Renewal Strategy. Needless to say, the current disparities, be they between formerly white areas and black areas, or between urban and rural areas, have a deleterious effect on national unity and social stability. The narrowing of the gap between former white areas and black areas, between urban and rural sectors, which is the aim of these strategies, will help to develop our country’s economy, stabilise rural communities and provide a material underpinning to what thus far is a nebulous concept of the rainbow nation.

Given its core mandate, the Ministry has been given the responsibility of ensuring that all spheres of Government integrate their activities with regard to both the Rural Development Strategy and the Urban Renewal Strategy. The Rural Development Strategy is now in the final planning stage. Implementation will commence on 1 July 2001, and thereafter the strategy has a 10-year implementation programme.

Two national Ministers have been assigned to work with each of the provinces and nodes. They will soon be visiting the provinces to interact with the premiers, relevant MECs, mayors and other stake-holders. A single unit will be established in the Department of Provincial and Local Government to manage and co-ordinate the implementation of both strategies across the whole of Government. In this, the unit will work with specialists assigned by the Independent Development Trust.

We are also assisting municipal councils to establish core systems, which are crucial to their ability to discharge their constitutional mandate. To this end, a total of R550 million has been set aside by way of a Transition Fund, which is being made available to municipalities from the national fiscus over a three-year period. This will cover the transitional cost of establishment.

As members are aware, Government is committed to ensuring at least a basic level of municipal services to all households. The following free basic services are being discussed, and the necessary set of guidelines will be issued to municipalities shortly. Firstly, a basic level of free water, in line with the World Health Organisation’s standard of a minimum of 24 litres per person, to promote healthy living, has been defined as approximately 6 000 litres per household per month. Secondly, a basic level of sanitation services will be provided, where possible, through the existing waterborne sanitation system. These measures are particularly important in the light of recent cholera epidemics.

Thirdly, the Department of Minerals and Energy has proposed that the first 50 kilowatts of electricity should be supplied free of charge to support all households. Lastly, a minimum free refuse removal service will also be supplied. [Applause.] The equitable share grant for the current financial year has been raised by R400 million, to assist municipalities in the provision of free basic services. Municipalities should progressively use this component of the equitable share for this purpose.

In all the support which Government will be giving to municipalities, Parliament has an important role to play. It is in this context that I convey my deep appreciation to the portfolio committee for its decision to embark on a programme of action to support municipalities. In this work, they make common cause with an equally determined Ministry, the Department of Provincial and Local Government, provincial departments and MECs of local government, the Municipal Demarcation Board and the Municipal Infrastructure Investment Unit. It is a combination of all these forces, as well as the masses of our people, who will make inputs through the ward councils, which will yield the bedrock on which the new system of local government will stand firm.

Yesterday Judge President Hlope presided over the swearing in of the Deputy Minister for Provincial and Local Government, Ms Gertrude Ntombazana Botha. [Applause.] We welcome our new Deputy Minister into the fighting ranks of our Ministry. [Interjections.] She joins a great team of practitioners who are determined to succeed.

An HON MEMBER: And a great Minister!

The MINISTER: The President’s decision to enhance our Ministry’s capacity to surge ahead portends immensely positive long-term consequences for our Government, our country and our people. [Applause.]

Mrs G M BORMAN: Madam Speaker, hon Minister and hon members, we congratulate the hon Botha on her appointment as Deputy Minister.

The Mail & Guardian of 25-31 May proclaims: ``New coach on gravy train’’. [Interjections.] The focus in local government has shifted from poverty, job creation and crime, to executive mayors’ spending on cars, mayoral inaugurations, additional staff, bodyguards and council chambers. The article states, and I quote:

We would have expected clear, unreserved condemnation from the ruling party and Government, of this kind of behaviour by our new class of super mayors. Yet, the ANC and Government, which regularly proclaim their commitment to good governance and project themselves around the continent as model institutions for the modern democratic states, have been remarkably tolerant of the appalling behaviour of at least two of their new executive mayors. They ask the question:

What was the intention behind the legislation that created them? To improve local government or to add another coach to the gravy train?

The first impression of the new local government structures confirms our worst fears. While there are spending sprees on self-aggrandising status symbols by executive mayors, inefficiency and failure to function in many municipalities, the abuse of power by mayors, the whittling down of democracy by mayoral committees and the continual dithering and dilly- dallying over the role of traditional leaders by central Government, all seem to be the order of the day.

Let me deal with the most glaring and blatant mismanagement of power. Bavumile Vilakazi, the executive mayor of Ekurhuleni municipality, planned to spend R560 000 on an armour-plated car, while he already had an existing fleet of 22 cars. The sum of R3,5 million was allocated to his office budget, his political and policy advisers were each to earn R305 000 per year and he spent R400 000 on his mayoral inauguration, while the Ekurhuleni municipality is recognised as having a large population of people who live in abject poverty. Fortunately, due to the swift action of the Democratic Alliance councillors, Vilakazi is rescinding some of the decisions that he has taken. We will continue to be vigilant.

The Mpumalanga province was given a R300 million bail-out by the national Treasury, because of the dire state of its finances. This was given to a province that has spent R650 million on its provincial legislature building for which they had budgeted R120 million. Because of its irresponsible spending, the province owes pharmaceutical companies at least R25 million for essential medicines. Mpumalanga Director-General Stanley Suku has publicly admitted that the province illegally used funds earmarked for basic services such as HIV/Aids programmes, social pensions and emergency flood relief programmes to pay for the provincial legislature building.

Is any disciplinary action taken? No! Like an indulgent parent responding to a child’s bad behaviour by increasing its pocket money, the ANC Government says to the Mpumalanga government that since it has wasted all its money, it has to have some more. It further says that it cannot afford to fight Aids, pay for the educational needs of our children or a proper police force, but it allows it to waste as much as it likes on flashy buildings because there is plenty more where that came from.

The mayor of Mogale, Adv Mogatlhe, is planning a R2 million upgrade of his council house, a R1 million upgrade of his council office, a further R200 000 that will be spent on his council garden outside his office, a R750 000 upgrade of the offices of the ANC executive members, and a trade-in of his BMW 740i, which is only a 1999/00 model with no more than 20 000 kilometres on the clock, for a new BMW 4x4. [Interjections] He plans to expand his mayoral office staff by seven new members, including three bodyguards.

Obed Mlaba, the mayor of Durban Unicity, has made a decision to appoint an ANC member of the KZN legislature who has no experience to the position of municipal manager. He has further appointed a public relations consultant for the mayor’s and the Speaker’s office, Linda Zama Management Consulting, at R112 000 per month which was R82 600 more expensive than the lowest bidder. [Interjections.] Earlier this year the ANC gave Zama a R232 000 bail-out for legal fees. It further spent R556 000 on a 4x4 vehicle, all this in the face of an unprecedented 29% increase in the water tariffs in Durban.

It is clear that far from achieving any of the lofty goals set out in the preamble to the Local Government: Municipal Systems Act, local government has deteriorated even further. The new legislation has unleashed a culture of village tinpotism on the citizens of our cities and towns. It has introduced new layers of incompetence, corruption and profligacy.

Allow me to compare this to the City of Cape Town, and the Western Cape run by the Democratic Alliance. [Interjections.] The City of Cape Town began to deliver six kilolitres of free water to every household from 1 May. It will supply 20 kilowatts of free electricity to council-served households from 1 July. We will have municipal police offices on Cape Town streets by November this year. It has set up the first municipal court in the City Hall. It has cleaned up 28 000 tons of rubbish on the Cape Flats and is upgrading its IT systems for better management and control. [Interjections.] It has initiated a R60 million traffic management and public transport plan. Despite the ANC’s inaction in the rest of the country, the Western Cape will be rolling out the provision of free antiretroviral drugs, HIV testing and counselling to 72 clinics and hospitals. [Interjections.]

The DA is committed to ensuring that all spheres of government operate in a manner that is open and accountable to all its citizens. The ANC has excluded the opposition from mayoral committees. This we believe to be unconstitutional. We are fighting the ANC in court on this matter.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order! Hon member, are you rising on a point of order?

Mrs Z A KOTA: I would like to know whether the hon member is prepared to take a question?

Mrs G M BORMAN: Not now. Detailed legislation, adequate budgeting by the department, restructuring the department and local government, putting everybody into straitjackets with the ANC’s one-size-fits-all policy, will not build strong, efficient, cost-effective and accountable local government, unless there is the political will to deal with the problems of corruption and mismanagement of very limited resources.

What I am saying is that, like Robbie Burns’ famous quote ``the best laid schemes o’ mice an’ men gang aft a-gley, an lea’e us nought but grief an’ pain for promis’d joy’’, the department has presented us with exciting plans but the problem is in the implementation. Will we improve local government or have we added another coach to the gravy train? That will depend on whether we are prepared to tolerate corruption and mismanagement. [Applause.]

Mr Y I CARRIM: Madam Speaker, comrades and friends, I think the hon Gloria ``Doom-and-gloom’’ Borman has deliberately made a wild and whacky speech. I think it is quite deliberate. She is seeking to distract me from what I meant to say, which is more meaningful. I am not going to fall for this. I want to say one simple thing. What she presented here is merely a litany of newspaper clippings without any contextualisation and parallels being drawn between the salary that she earns as a member of Parliament here and the perks and other conditions she enjoys as against what councillors have.

In fact, we want one system of governance with three interrelated spheres. If we want a system of governance it means we will have to be very careful about criticising local government councillors without looking also at our own circumstances. [Interjections.]

It is very instructive that at a study group meeting on Monday we asked: What would Gloria Borman say?

Mr M J ELLIS: The hon Borman.

Mr Y I CARRIM: Yes, the hon Borman, or properly ``Gloria the Boring’’. We knew exactly what she was going to say. It is exactly what she said last year. She did not offer any alternatives, only doom and gloom. That is not an opposition party. [Applause.]

Let me then go on to say that both the hon the President’s state of the nation address and the hon the Minister of Finance’s Budget Speech, conveyed a need for a more active role for the state in economic growth, job creation and development. This year’s Budget marks a significant increase in state investment and infrastructure. The Budget, the hon the Minister said, hails the beginning of a new cycle. He said that we were moving away from macro-economic stabilisation to micro-economic reform.

Ultimately, it seems to me that to effect these reforms, and to meet the overall challenges that confront us, we need a strong developmental state. This means that our capacity to govern, and our system of co-operative governance and intergovernmental relations, have to be strengthened. This is a key function of the Ministry and the Department of Provincial Affairs and Local Government.

Ultimately, the key test of our system of governance is the extent to which it contributes to improvements in service delivery and development. This too presents a further challenge to the Ministry and the department. It is within this framework that the portfolio committee approached the evaluation of the department’s budget. Our views are expressed in a report carried in today’s Announcements, Tablings and Committee Reports. I will merely give a quick overview of the report and other members will deal with it in depth.

Clearly, the Integrated Sustainable Rural Development Strategy and the Urban Renewal Strategy are crucial development and delivery programmes. The department has a major responsibility to co-ordinate the implementation of these programmes. Their successful implementation will depend not only on the Ministry and the department, but on the concerted co-operation of several national departments, all three spheres of government, the Independent Development Trust, Salga and a range of civil society stakeholders.

As members of Parliament we have a vital role to play in contributing to the monitoring and implementation of these programmes. We urge the hon the Minister to ensure that members of Parliament are drawn in, especially those who live or work in these nodal areas. The successful implementation of the ISRDS and the URS, as they know, will depend crucially on how strong our intergovernmental relations system is. In turn, the effective implementation of these programmes will serve to strengthen the RDI system.

The implementation of these programmes has to be located within the framework of overall local government transformation. We have a wonderful, exciting, imaginative new model of local government. The challenge, however, is to implement it. Of course this cannot be implemented overnight. It could indeed take up to 10 years to effectively implement the new system. Different municipalities will be able to implement different aspects of the new system at different times, depending on capacity, funding, resources and other issues. What we need is a sensitive, phased implementation programme that has clear short, medium and long-term goals and ways of monitoring their progress in achieving these goals.

The department is defining a transformation programme, but we all need to work together to develop this programme further. It is certainly not the responsibility of the Ministry and department alone to carry out this transformation. What we need is a massive inclusive campaign for local government transformation that draws in every sector and stratum of our society.

Crucial to the success of local government transformation is a fundamental review of the local government system. This has, in fact, begun. While recognising the difficulties as a committee, we urge that the progress in this regard be stepped up.

The new system of local government is far more powerful than the previous one. Local government today has far greater responsibilities to ensure delivery and development in our country and yet greater responsibilities are going to be allocated to it. This means that we need councillors who are effective and who can concentrate fully on their municipal responsibilities. They have to be paid appropriate salaries. This responsibility cannot be borne by the budgets of municipalities and by the local residents. [Interjections.]

The committee is acutely aware of the constraints of the national Budget, but we think serious consideration should be given to paying councillors’ salaries and allowances from the national fiscus. Depending on the roles and responsibilities of councillors and the nature of their municipalities, the determination of full-time councillors’ salaries should also take into account the salaries of MPs and MPLs. After all, we have one system of governance although we have three spheres attached to it. [Interjections.]

We are also concerned about the gap between the salaries of full-time councillors and the allowances of part-time councillors, especially where the latter are ward councillors. The argument that councillors will be less accountable if paid from the national fiscus is especially weak and ignores the many mechanisms of accountability established in the new system of local government.

Addressing issues of councillors’ salaries and allowances might require a phased implementation programme of improvement and we would urge that this be done. We see that the DA is challenging the constitutionality of the executive mayoral committee system because it comprises only members from the winning party in an election. But the executive mayoral system as a type has already been challenged and found to be constitutional. This implies that its composition is also constitutionally sound. In any case, the new local government system also provides for collective executives which are multiparty. [Interjections.]

It is ironic that as a party calling for local choice, the DA is trying to restrict choice. We agree on multiparty governance, but it cannot be through executive committees alone. We must secure multiparty co-operation through the legislatures at local government level. One cannot insist on being part of government if one lost the elections. One cannot try to win through legislation what one lost at the ballot box. [Interjections.]

Finally, before my time runs out, may I take this opportunity on behalf of the committee as a whole, and perhaps even this Parliament and the hecklers who have nothing useful to say, to congratulate very warmly our new Deputy Minister for Provincial and Local Government, Comrade Ntombazana Botha, and wish her well in her new job. I also want to say thank you to the department, led by Director-General Zam Titus who is here. Our sincere thanks also go to the Minister. [Interjections.]

With the 58 seconds left to me, I want to stress that the majority of us in this committee are especially concerned about the concerns of traditional leaders. However, we are very clear that if we are going to find a solution, it has to take time. But, more importantly, we cannot just address the concerns of traditional leaders without taking into account that the Minister suggested the concerns and interests of many other stakeholders that have significant constituencies in these traditional authority areas.

We welcome the process that was set up by him and his Ministry and department and we commit ourselves to playing our fullest role in finding a solution to the needs and concerns of traditional leaders as they can be reconciled with our new, very imaginative, very innovative democracy. [Applause.]

Mr P F SMITH: Madam Speaker, under normal circumstances I would thank the Minister for spending as much time as he did on the issue I want to address today, but it is a question of thanks but no thanks. He said nothing whatsoever that advances a resolution to the conflict. There is a crisis in the country although the Minister denies it.

The facts of the matter are that when councillors refuse to implement the law in their areas and this necessitates church intervention, it is symptomatic of a serious problem. When traditional leaders throughout the country refuse in protest to take up their statutory positions in municipalities, it is symptomatic of a crisis. When leaders of the coalition of traditional leaders, which should represent all of the traditional leaders in the country, say that the Minister has deliberately flouted the presidency and they are openly distrustful and disdainful of the Minister and his department, that is symptomatic of a crisis.

Traditional leaders are organs of state and when a dispute between hundreds of organs of state on the one hand and the executive on the other results in emergency negotiations with the Presidency before the elections which, in turn, results in a major boycott throughout the country of traditional leaders in local government, resulting in a complete breakdown in trust, it is indeed a crisis. Yet the Minister believes otherwise. To him there is no crisis. A lot of the hon members here seem to be treating the matter far too lightly and the IFP finds this both disappointing and irresponsible.

The question is: Why are traditional leaders so upset now? What is different about the position now, compared to what has obtained over the last seven years with regard to issues that have been on the Table in this House? The answer is very simple. The point is that this time round Government made a firm commitment to do something. It made a commitment, an agreement, a promise and it is refusing to implement it. That is what is different. In the past it strung people along talking nonsense for months on end. This time there was a firm commitment to do something and that commitment was reneged on. That is why people are not amused and that is why there is a crisis.

The immediate issue before us is not the merits or demerits of that agreement; the issue before us is the implementation of the agreement that was reached. Later, once the legislation is in this House, we as MPs can apply our minds to the merits and the demerits of it. What we are concerned about now, is that the executive fulfil the obligation it created for itself towards the traditional leaders.

The facts are very simple. In October last year there were a series of meetings between representatives of the coalition of traditional leaders and the department and there was an agreement. Until the day of the election, traditional authorities throughout the country and municipalities exercised exactly the same powers and functions. As of 5 December, when the elections took place, all the powers and functions that local governments and traditional authorities exercised, would be obliterated.

They took the agreement reached between the department and the coalition to the President. The President agreed with the coalition that that position was untenable and he made two promises, and that is what the issue is today. That is why there is a crisis. The President made two promises.

The first promise was that an interim solution would be found. That interim solution would ensure that the powers and functions to be lost on 5 December would in fact not be obliterated. To give effect to this, legislation would be introduced in Parliament to maintain the pre-election status quo. The second promise that was made was that there would be a permanent solution found thereafter which would enhance even further the powers that traditional authorities would exercise.

This is the commitment that the President, or rather the Presidency, made to the coalition. The Deputy President also signed a similar public commitment. That was the nature of the commitment. The real issue here is: Has Government complied with this promise? The answer is not simply a ``no’’, which we can all see is self-evident. The Minister has admitted it, but even worse, it appears quite clearly that Government, or at least part of Government, has absolutely no intention, and has perhaps never had any intention from the very beginning, of complying with the agreement.

Let us forget about the permanent solution for now. The White Paper is due tomorrow, 1 June. There should be an agreement by tomorrow. Let us hope that we have it tomorrow. It would be interesting to see. Let us concentrate now on the interim agreement. The agreement was that none of the powers and functions would be obliterated. What has happened with respect to that?

We had two Bills in November last year that bore absolutely no relation to the issue at hand and were completely and utterly irrelevant. There is now a third Bill doing the rounds. It has been wandering around all the stakeholders the Minister made reference to. Again, it has absolutely nothing to do with the agreement reached between the Presidency and the coalition of traditional leaders.

It is a Bill about local government, true, but it is not a reflection of the agreement reached and that is why there is a huge problem. Our view is simply that Government is stringing the coalition along hoping that the issue will simply die away of its own accord. There was consultation with Sanco and all the stakeholders that are also being strung along; we can even name Pick ‘n Pay and Checkers.

The point is that the Presidency would have made the commitment that it did, having applied their minds to the merits and demerits of the situation. Once that Bill comes to Parliament, we will apply our minds. That is when Sanco and Cosatu come into play and come to address the committee. We do not need them to dictate the terms of the agreement that the Government has already reached with traditional leaders.

We also take issue with the fact that the Minister claims that certain members on this side of the House - I presume he is referring in part to ourselves - talk about what we want as though there is no substance to it. He is very fond of rubbishing the merits of the case. For example, he regularly claims two issues, namely that the proposals of traditional leaders and the coalition that are put forward are undemocratic. What he does not say to this House, although it is true that the model put forward only allows for 50% representation of councillors, is that the essence of the agreement is in fact direct democracy, where local government decisions would have been exercised directly by the community.

What makes a system where the people on the ground choose directly, through community mass meetings, the kind of development that they want, less democratic than a system where every five years one elects councillors who by law are required to consult, but who can ignore the consultation? That is inherently more democratic? I do not understand it. It does not make any sense whatsoever.

Democracy can take multitudinous forms, including direct democracy, and a mixture of the two. A mixture is what is being proposed, but we have never had a forum to debate this. The committee does not discuss it, Government does not discuss it, it is just shrugged off as if it is irrelevant.

The second issue that he is constantly harping on about is that traditional authorities cannot deliver. This is ridiculous! What he once again does not say is that during the last five years of the transition, half of the approximately 800 odd municipalities that were established were totally nonfunctional. The transitional representative councils and the rural councils were an abomination when it came to actual delivery.

How much delivery was achieved by those councils? Zilch! He does not say either that of the new councils established just six months ago, fully one third of them are admitted by the department to be nonfunctional. They are unable to deliver. They have neither the human capacity, nor the financial resources to deliver. In fact, Government is planning massive interventions that will enable them to deliver.

Well, the argument goes, if traditional authorities cannot deliver and the Government is going to give huge resources to municipalities which are nonfunctional to allow them to deliver, why on earth can those resources not be given to traditional authorities to enable them to deliver. It is patently clear that in fact it can be done. The Government chooses not to do it.

I want to conclude with a couple of quotes from a man who some 500 years ago advised political leaders on the art of state craft and in particular on how to stay in power for as long as possible. I would like to quote from a section headed ``How princes should honour their word’’:

Contemporary experience shows that princes who have achieved great things have been those who have given their word lightly, and have known how to prick men with their cunning, and who in the end have overcome those abiding by honest principles.

He goes on to say, and I quote again:

… so it follows that a prudent ruler cannot, and should not, honour his word when it places him at a disadvantage, and when the reasons for which he made his promise no longer exist.

Finally:

One must know how to colour one’s actions and to be a great liar and deceiver.

His most famous quote, for those hon members who are wondering who this person is, is as follows:

If the means accuseth the end excuseth.

This in modern parlance would be: The end justifies the means. Of course the Italian Renaissance person we are referring to is Machiavelli, and those ascribing to his views would be those one calls Machiavellian.

I would like members of this House to ask themselves in respect of this matter that we are addressing today whether, in their view, if they applied their minds to it, Government is behaving in a Machiavellian fashion. I think the answer is fairly obvious, and I also think that Mr No-Crises Minister has in fact failed the nation dramatically.

The IFP supports the Vote, though we would like to say that we do not support an appropriation which pays for the remuneration of the Minister or the, in our view, equally culpable DG. With these words, and with congratulations to the new Deputy Minister whom we wish well, that is our position on this Vote. [Applause.]

Rev A D GOOSEN: Madam Speaker, I will be speaking on intergovernmental relations and the provincial system.

First of all I want to say that Mr Smith has been ranting and raving about the traditional leaders. We know what the situation is, and we are working on it. We know that there will be a solution to the problem. We know him to be negative in everything, just as the DA is negative in their approach to everything.

May I remind the House that the provincial system of government came about as a means of addressing the ``national question’’. With hindsight, we can all agree that this was the best possible option for all the negotiators at Kempton Park. As with any new government, even a new system of government for that matter, the problems which this new system was going to experience were inescapable. In 1994 the Ministers at national level were settling in and organising their staff. Provinces felt marginalised by the mere fact of having to cope on their own while they were having a mountain of difficulties to contend with.

With the 1996 Constitution the three-tier government had to make way for a three-sphere government with corporate governance being the cornerstone thereof. Interaction and co-operation were going to be essential ingredients. Intergovernmental relations would be the vehicle by which corporate governance would come into its own.

Intergovernmental relations was rather disappointing, and did not measure up to the expectations which everyone had of it. The shortcomings at different levels were manifold. Whilst multiple channels for co-ordination, communication and consultation were some of the things which came about in the process, the defects were clearly visible. There are intergovernmental relations structures which need urgent attention, because provinces are not sure how they fit into the picture. This could be one of the reasons why they are struggling to make progress.

All the intergovernmental relations structures must be scrutinised in order to see whether they are beneficial to corporate governance. If not, something should be done so that improvements can be made. We are pleased to see that the department is using the intergovernmental relations in order to co-ordinate all its programmes. This will go a long way in addressing service delivery which in fact is our primary concern in the portfolio committee. Besides, service delivery is indeed a way in which we can gauge whether the intergovernmental relations is actually working.

The department’s initiative is also going to contribute a great deal to getting the rural development strategy, which the President announced in his state of the nation address, off the ground. We welcome the intergovernmental relations audit with the clear recommendations in it. It is encouraging to know the department is reviewing its operational strategy with the aid of this audit.

The department has also shown its determination to eradicate all the obstacles in its way - and getting the job done by appointing a chief directorate to focus especially on its intergovernmental relations work. Intergovernmental relations is going through rough patches at the moment. It therefore needs to be reinforced, because we cannot allow one aspect of governance to cripple the entire body.

The department must be lauded for all the sterling work being done in this regard. I am sure that with such steadfastness we are going to reap the benefits of all these efforts in time to come. The intergovernmental relations audit is very explicit in legislation being considered to address the shortcomings in intergovernmental relations. The department, though, does not feel the need to consider legislation in this regard at this point in time, because of the Acts which are already in existence, and which are adequate in facilitating matters pertaining to intergovernmental relations.

May I come back to the provincial system of government by saying that each province has its peculiar problems. I will mention a few of them. Eighty- eight per cent of the Northern Province’s population is rural, and the quality of life for the people in that area is very low. The Northern Cape takes up 30% of the country’s area and has the smallest population, being two persons per square kilometre. The province is too large for its population.

The Western Cape, on the other hand, is better off than most other provinces, but, ironically, it is lacking in its service delivery to the destitute, the poor and the homeless. The ANC must take over this province in the next elections. The Eastern Cape has inherited both Transkei and Ciskei, thus a lot of the baggage of the old regime. But in spite of all these backlogs, the province’s viability is not in question. It is nevertheless envisaging a growth rate of 8% by the year 2006.

Because of the difficulties which the provinces were facing, and finding it hard to come into their own, many people started questioning the existence of the provinces. Some wanted to see the abolition of the provincial system of government, others wanted to have only four provinces, as in the old apartheid days, whilst others would like to see them trimmed down.

One of the respondents at the Presidential Review Commission said that provinces were set up to fail. This is an illogical statement. For the Government to set up provinces and then to work towards their downfall is utter crap. [Interjections.] To do so would be for the Government to shoot itself in the foot.

The new system of government has been in existence for just six years, and there were bound to be patches of rough water it had to charter. [Interjections.]

Mr M J ELLIS: Madam Speaker, on a point of order: Is it parliamentary to say something is utter crap? The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order! Hon member, what did you say was utter crap?

Rev A D GOOSEN: Madam Speaker, I said that the statement one person made was that the provinces were set up to fail and that that is an illogical statement. I also said that for the Government to set up provinces and then to work towards their downfall is utter crap.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order! Hon member, I would say that the word is not one of those that add to the decorum of Parliament. However, there is really nothing unparliamentary about it as such. Please proceed, hon member. [Interjections.]

Rev A D GOOSEN: I withdraw that statement, Madam Speaker. But the Government has not set up provinces for them to fail. [Time expired.] [Applause.]

Mnr F J VAN DEVENTER: Geagte Speaker, ek wil graag hier aan die begin ook my gelukwense oordra aan die nuwe Adjunkminister. Ek glo en ek hoop sy sal meer realisme in die departement bring as wat ons nou van tyd tot tyd daar kry. My dank ook aan die direkteur-generaal en sy amptenare vir die hulp wat ons so geredelik van hulle kry. Ons het waardering daarvoor.

Die toespraak van die agb Minister het die verwagte toon aangeslaan, terwyl daar vir ons van tyd gesê word dat daar met die tradisionele leiers nie eintlik meer probleme is nie. Dit gaan eintlik goed en die verhoudinge tussen die Regering en die tradisionele leiers is baie goed. Tog kom die Minister vanmiddag hier en wy seker ‘n derde van sy toespraak aan die tradisionele leiers.

Maar een ding verswyg hy vir hulle. Dit is dat die tradisionele leiers voor die portefeuljekomitee getuig het. Toe daar vir hulle gevra is hoekom hulle nie finansiële state indien nie, was hul antwoord dat hulle nie die finansies hanteer wat aan hulle toegesê is nie. Die tweede ding is dat hulle word nie geraadpleeg oor die Witskrif wat besig is om ontwikkel te word nie. Ek dink dis ‘n gevaarlike situasie. Hulle is mense wat in beheer is van miljoene mense en ek dink dit is onverantwoordelik van ‘n regering om daardie soort van rigting in te slaan in die hantering van so ‘n sensitiewe saak soos die tradisionele leiers.

Ek wil na ‘n tweede aspek verwys. Hier is vanmiddag indrukwekkende syfers van die kant van die Minister en van die kant van die voorsitter van die portefeuljekomitee voor hierdie Parlement geplaas, betreffende die ontwikkeling en dit wat bereik is en dit wat spandeer word om van plaaslike regering ‘n sukses te maak. Daar is twee maniere waarop daar gespandeer kan word. Die een is om baie kwistig geld te gee. Die ander een is om toe te sien dat daardie geld wat so mildelik gegee is, behoorlik spandeer word.

As ons gaan kyk na wat vir ons gesê is, vind ons dat van die 231 kategorie B-munisipaliteite in Suid-Afrika daar ongeveer 60% is wat nie bevredigend funksioneer nie en waarvan sommige byna glad nie funksioneer nie. Dit is 139 munisipaliteite uit ‘n totaal van 231. Maar as ‘n mens verdere ontledings gaan doen, dan vind mens dat hierdie B-munisipaliteite grotendeels geleë is in die landelike gebiede. Die bevolking van daardie landelike gebiede wat in hierdie munisipaliteite woon, beloop ongeveer 18,5 miljoen. Het dit nie tyd geword dat ons kyk na die aanwending van die departement se fondse om fondse daar te kry waar dit nodig is om ontwikkeling te bring, infrastruktuur te skep, armoedebestryding te doen en die belangrikste ding, die nodige opleiding gegee kan word om raadslede en amptenare in ‘n posisie te plaas om daardie munisipaliteite behoorlik te bestuur nie?

Wat van vrae van lede van die ANC in die portefeuljekomitee oor wat SETA doen, daardie opleidingsliggaam wat die departement se opleiding doen onder raadslede en amptenare? Kom hulle op plekke waar SETA was om opleiding te doen, dan vind hulle die mense weet niks of die mense is verward. Ek het ‘n voorstel gemaak in die portefeuljekomitee dat ons moet gaan kyk na die talle kundige mense wat daar in Suid-Afrika is - hulle is nie almal wit nie, daar is swartmense, daar is bruinmense en daar is Indiërs - en dat ons daardie mense op ‘n lys plaas, hulle kwalifikasies en hul kundigheid bepaal en hulle vra of ons hulle nie kan plaas by hierdie munisipaliteite vir ‘n tydperk van twee of drie maande. Sodoende kan ons kyk of hulle nie in die praktyk die opleiding kan gee wat hierdie mense kan help nie. Ek vra nie vir permanente plasings nie; ek vra nie vir die vervanging van mense nie; en om my dan te blameer vir rassisme, is absolute kortsigtigheid aan die kant van hierdie regering.

Ek het voor hierdie kateder gestaan met my gesig na die Speaker en ek het ‘n eed geneem, soos wat almal dit gedoen het, dat ons die beste van ons vermoë sal inspan om Suid-Afrika en sy mense na die beste van ons vermoë te dien. Wanneer ‘n mens met voorstelle vorendag kom om hierdie Regering te help om tot diens van die mense te wees wat hulle as die `` poorest of the poor’’ beskou, dan word mens uitgeskel vir ‘n rassis. Ek wil vanmiddag vir die Huis sê dat ons natuurlik nie die foute van die verlede wil herhaal nie. En natuurlik was apartheid verkeerd. Maar apartheid is elke dag besig om ‘n tree verder in die verlede in te verdwyn. Maar die probleme wat opbou rondom onkundigheid, rondom die tekorte wat daar bestaan in die landelike gebiede, daardie probleme is, net soos apartheid tree vir tree besig is om in die verlede te verdwyn, besig om met reusetree na vore te dring en hulle gaan hulle plaas in die midde van die huidige omstandighede. En as daar nie hantering van hierdie goed is nie, is ek bevrees, kan dit in die gesig van hierdie Regering en van Suid-Afrika ontplof - tot ons almal se nadeel.

Ek wil ‘n laaste punt opper. En dit is rondom die afbakening van plaaslike owerhede. Dit is vir my amuserend dat die Afbakeningskommissie vir ons sê hulle het van 200 konsultante gebruik gemaak in die proses van afbakening. Kyk mens dan na die grense wat hulle vir ons kon aanbied het, gemeenskappe wat middeldeur gesny is, en al die soort van dinge, onpraktiese voorstelle wat hulle vir ons op die tafel kom sit het, dan is ek verstom. En ek wil regtig pleit dat daar gekyk word na ‘n behoorlike lys van konsultante oor die verskillende dinge waarvoor konsultante nodig is, met die kwalifikasies van daardie konsultante, hul ervaring en dies meer, en dat wanneer konsultante aangestel word, daar ten minste gekyk word na konsultante wat weet wat hulle doen en wat die werk verstaan wat hulle moet doen.

Dit sal nie help dat ons vingers in mekaar se oë indruk oor dit wat in die verlede gebeur het nie. Ons moet Suid-Afrika laat werk vir die geslagte wat môre hier moet sit en hierdie land moet oorneem. [Applous.] (Translation of Afrikaans speech follows.)

[Mr F J VAN DEVENTER: Hon Speaker, at the outset I would like to convey my congratulations to the new Deputy Minister. I believe and hope that she will bring more realism into the department than we find there from time to time at the moment. My thanks also to the director-general and his officials for the assistance that we so readily get from them. We appreciate that. The speech of the hon the Minister did assume the expected tone, since we are told from time to time that there are not actually any problems with the traditional leaders now. Everything is actually going well and the relationship between the Government and the traditional leaders is very good. And yet the Minister devoted a third of his speech to the traditional leaders this afternoon.

But he has kept one thing from members. It is the fact that the traditional leaders testified before the portfolio committee. When they were asked why they did not hand in any financial statements, their reply was that they do not handle any finances which are allocated to them. Secondly, they are not being consulted about the White Paper that is being drafted. I think this is a dangerous situation. They are people who are in control of millions of people and I think it is irresponsible of a government to adopt such a course of action dealing with such a sensitive issue as the traditional leaders.

I want to refer to a second aspect. This afternoon impressive figures were put before this Parliament by the Minister and the chairperson of the portfolio committee regarding development and what has been achieved and what is being spent to make a success of local government. There are two ways in which money can be spent. The one way is to spend very lavishly. The other way is to see to it that that money that has been given so generously, is spent properly.

If we examine what has been said to us, we find that of the 231 category B municipalities in South Africa approximately 60% are not functioning satisfactorily and some are virtually not functioning at all. That is 139 municipalities out of a total of 231. But if one were to make a further analysis, one would find that these category B municipalities are situated largely in the rural areas. The population of these rural areas that lives in these municipalities, amounts to about 18,5 million people. Has the time not come for us to examine the application of the department’s funds to get funds to where they are needed to bring about development, create infrastructure, fight poverty and, most importantly, give the necessary training to place councillors and officials in a position to manage those municipalities properly?

What about questions asked by members of the ANC in the portfolio committee regarding what is being done by Seta, that training institution that is undertaking the department’s training amongst councillors and officials? If they do get to places where Seta has been doing training, they find that the people know nothing or are confused. I have made a suggestion in the portfolio committee that we should take a look at the many experienced people in South Africa - they are not all white, there are blacks, coloureds and Indians - and put their names on a list, determine their qualifications and their area of expertise and ask them if we cannot second them to these municipalities for a period of two to three months. In this way we can see if they cannot give these people the practical training they need to help them. I am not asking for permanent placements; nor am I asking that people be replaced and to then accuse me of being racist, is absolutely shortsighted of this Government.

I stood before the Speaker’s chair, facing the Speaker, and I took an oath, as everyone did, that we would do everything in our power to serve South Africa and its people to the best of our ability. When one comes up with suggestions to help this Government to be of service to the people whom they regard as the ``poorest of the poor’’ then one is branded a racist. This afternoon I want to say to the House that we obviously do not want to repeat the mistakes of the past. And, of course, apartheid was wrong. But every day apartheid is going a step further into the past. But in the same way that apartheid is disappearing into the past, the problems building up around inexperience, the shortages existing in the rural areas, are emerging very strongly and they are going to make their presence felt in current circumstances. And if these issues are not dealt with, I am afraid, it can blow up in the face of this Government and of South Africa - to the detriment of all of us.

I want to raise a last point. And it concerns the demarcation of local authorities. I find it amusing that the Demarcation Commission tells us that they used 200 consultants in the demarcation process. If one looks at the boundaries they suggested to us, communities cut in half and the like, unpractical proposals they made, I am astounded. And I really want to make an appeal that we consider a proper list of consultants and the issues for which consultants are needed, with the qualifications of those consultants, their experience and so forth, and that when consultants are appointed, at least consultants are appointed who know what they are doing and understand the work they have to do.

It is no use to point fingers at one another regarding what happened in the past. We must make South Africa work for the generations that must sit here tomorrow and must take over this country. [Applause.]]

Ms M C LOBE: Madam Speaker, comrades and colleagues, in June 1955 over 3 000 delegates from all over South Africa met at a congress of the people in Kliptown to discuss a plan aimed at deracialising and democratising South Africa. This plan, the Freedom Charter, serves as a basis and a measuring rod for our transformation agenda. Our local government transformation project is also guided by objectives as set out in the Freedom Charter, in particular a clause which says ``the people shall govern’’. In realisation of this objective local government elections were held in December 2000 and we entered a process of transition that was characterised by the amalgamation of municipalities which, in essence, were racially based, the redemarcation of municipal boundaries and the creation of wall-to-wall municipalities.

May I take this opportunity to congratulate the Municipal Demarcation Board on the efficient way in which it has fulfilled its mandate, especially in view of the fact that it was faced with constraints which can be defined in terms of time and resources. And may I remind the hon Van Deventer that the process of redemarcation was technical and indeed required the use of consultants. These elections also inaugurated a new system of local government aimed at consolidating our nonracial democracy.

The introduction of a new framework of developmental local government presents substantial opportunities to address challenges associated with poverty alleviation and gender equity. In terms of this new system of local government municipalities must focus efforts and resources on improving the quality of life of communities, in particular women, people with disabilities and the rural poor. Key to fulfilling this developmental role is the adoption of the integrated development plans by all municipalities.

In terms of the law the community must have a say in both the content of the IDP and the process by which it is drafted. The Local Government: Municipal Systems Act stipulates that a municipality must develop a culture of municipal governance that complements formal representative government with a system of participatory governance. The Act makes it clear that residents have the right to contribute to the municipality’s decision- making process. This is ``the people shall govern’’ in practice.

On the other hand, municipalities’ executives have to give annual reports on the extent to which the local community has been involved in municipal affairs and the output of such an exercise, meaning that the report will have to reflect the effect of consultation on the decisions of the council. The new system also provides for ward committees to be set up in each ward in order to enhance participatory democracy. Although ward committees are not compulsory, community participation is compulsory. Through this system the ANC is affording people in general, including those who have not voted for it, an opportunity to participate and an opportunity to govern.

Re tlamehile ho tlohela ho bapala diketo ka ho nka karolo ha setjhaba mebuso selehaeng, hobane taba ena e hloka hore setjhaba se thuse ho aha tsebo mabapi le ditaba tse amang puso selehae. Ka letsohong le leng, tsena tsohle di hloka tjhelete hore di tswelle. Hangata, sebaka sa ho nka karolo ha setjhaba se sebediswa ha bohlaswa ke lequnwana la bokgowana-tshwana, bao e leng hore ba bang ba bona ba rongwa ke bo mohl Gloria Borman, ho sitisa tswelopele metse selehaeng.

Jwale, taba ena ya ho nka karolo ha setjhaba, e lokela hore e sebediswe bakeng sa ho thusa mebuso selehae ho tswellisa pele Lenaneo la Tlhabollo le Kahobotjha, eseng ho ntsha mebuso selehae tseleng ya ho tswellisa setjhaba pele. (Translation of Sesotho paragraphs follows.)

[We must stop playing games with the involvement of the nation in local government matters, because this issue calls for the nation to help build knowledge of matters relating to local government. On the other hand, all this needs money to succeed.

Often, the nation’s opportunity to participate is abused by a small minority group of ``black whities’’, some of whom are sent by people like the hon Gloria Borman, to impede development in rural areas.

Now, the nation’s involvement must be used to help local governments to develop the RDP, not to prevent local governments from developing the nation.]

The success of the new system of local government depends on the fundamental review of the local government’s financial system, which includes the physical powers and functions of districts and local municipalities, the local government’s equitable share of the national revenue, the property rates, intergovernmental grants and other sources of revenue.

Comrade Minister should note that we welcome the fact that the next two years have been identified as the stabilisation phase for local government. In March 2001 R100 million was allocated to municipalities from the Local Government Transition Fund. Strategic areas of support include financial planning and management, human resource reorganisation and other issues. However, we note that during this stabilisation phase municipalities will be required to amalgamate and restructure administrations and service delivery arrangements.

At the same time local government must ensure continued access to municipal services by all citizens. Enormous pressure will be placed on municipalities to provide sustainable and equitable services during this process. It is therefore critical to provide financial assistance to municipalities for at least two years.

We congratulate local government because over the past few years municipalities in our country have been involved in a protracted, difficult and challenging transition in which great strides have been made in democratising and deracialising our society. Having entered the final phase of transition we are confident that South Africa belongs to all who live in it, black and white, and that no government can justly claim an authority unless it is based on the will of the people.

Indeed, the foundation has been laid for the people to govern. As the people of South Africa declared in 1955, we must join them and pledge ourselves to strive together, sparing neither strength nor courage until the democratic changes have been won by all the people.

                           POINT OF ORDER
                              (Ruling)

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! Hon members, before I call the next speaker I would like to make a ruling on a point of order which was made in this House.

I now wish to give a ruling in respect of a point of order raised during question time on Wednesday, 23 May by the hon Mike Ellis. While responding to a question the Minister of Safety and Security referred to a member of this House as a former spy for the previous government. He went on to extend this to other members by saying: I am not a spy like some of them were.

It has previously been ruled in this House by the Speaker that referring to members as spies is out of order, on the grounds that making unsubstantiated allegations against the integrity of any member is unparliamentary. I therefore wish to call upon the Minister to withdraw his words.

The MINISTER OF SAFETY AND SECURITY: Mr Chairperson, thank you very much. I withdraw it.

                         APPROPRIATION BILL Debate on Vote No 5 - Provincial and Local Government resumed:

Mr D G MKONO: Mr Chairperson, hon Minister and hon members, I wish to congratulate the new Deputy Minister on her appointment.

The budget before us represents some of the biggest issues facing the nation today. These include, specifically, the key objective of the department focusing on the new local government system as well as the co- ordination of the Urban Renewal Strategy and the Integrated Sustainable Rural Development Strategy. These integrated approaches are in line with the UDM’s philosophy that integrated solutions are the only sustainable method of ensuring service delivery to all South Africans. We therefore anxiously await progress reports on the implementation of these strategies to assess whether these good intentions on paper translate into real changes on the ground, especially for the poorest of the poor.

In addition, the department is responsible for such vital responsibilities as ensuring effective intergovernmental relations, traditional leadership as well as comprehensive disaster management. With regard to programme 2, ie, governance and development, we welcome the increased budget of R1,003 billion for the municipal infrastructure programme. We hope that the 65% set aside for rural areas will indeed reach the intended beneficiaries who are in desperate need of delivery in this regard.

Similarly, the R78 million set aside for the Local Economic Development Fund is welcomed, although the adjusted appropriation for the year 2000-01 was 20% more. The department should consider whether this item should not receive a larger allocation than the recent one of the medium-term expenditure period, since job creation remains the central challenge facing South Africa. Regarding the municipal infrastructure investment unit, we welcome the expansion of support given to the unit and the proposed three- year allocation plan for 2001-02.

A related item under programme 2 is development and planning. However, the concern is that adequate budgeting has not taken place, with the adjusted appropriation of 2000-01 being R10,05 million. While the allocation budgeted for this year is R9,2 million, we would argue that the efforts of the department under this item deserve greater attention and budgetary resources. We concur with the need for integrated development planning, especially with regard to its linkages to local economic development and municipal service partnerships. The department is urged to speed up the implementation of these initiatives, since they directly impact on service delivery and job creation.

The social plan fund under programme 2, established at the 1998 national Jobs Summit, is allocated R1 million. This is a project with noble intentions, but it must be questioned whether 50 000 grants to selected municipalities for the purpose of local economic regeneration is sufficient.

The work done by the department under programme 3 has fallen under a shadow of controversy and disagreement regarding the critical issue of traditional leadership. This is reflected in the continued complaints of traditional leaders across the country that their concerns are not being attended to.

Traditional leadership is an undeniable reality of our society. As an institution it represents hundreds of thousands of South Africans. We urge the Minister to give serious and immediate attention to this matter, with due regard to the various commitments that have been made by Government to traditional leaders over the past two years.

The fate of traditional leaders is closely linked with the future success or failure of rural communities. We must acknowledge the central role that traditional leaders play in rural life. This is especially true for the Department of Provincial and Local Government, which was chosen to manage the vital and ambitious Integrated Sustainable Rural Development Strategy.

The continued wrangle over the issue of traditional leadership not only endangers the success of many municipalities, but also threatens to undermine the future development of rural areas as a whole. We urge Government to acknowledge traditional leadership as an institution and join in partnership with these leaders as well as farmers to ensure that rural revitalisation becomes a reality. Millions of the poorest of the poor, the marginalised, the illiterate and the desperate reside in the rural areas.

Turning to the item dealing with performance management and municipal finance under programme 3, the creation of early warning systems as legislated through the Local Government: Municipal Systems Act will ensure timely support from other spheres of government, as well as enabling the creation of best practices. These measures, along with performance assessments and improved municipal finance requirements, will provide a huge improvement in municipal governance.

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! Hon member, your speaking time has expired.

Mr D G MKONO: Chairperson, we support the budget. [Applause.]

Nksz M N BUTHELEZI: Sihlalo ngizothatha leli thuba ngibonge uNggqongqoshe weziFunda noHulumeni baseKhaya umhlonishwa uMufamadi ngokunikeza le ndlu umbiko ngesabiwomali soMnyango aphathiswe wona, ngiphinde futhi ngibongele umhlonishwa uNksz Ntombazana Botha ngokuqokwa njengesekela kulo Mnyango. (Translation of Zulu paragraph follows.)

[Miss M N BUTHELEZI: Madam Speaker I would like to take this opportunity to thank the hon the Minister for Provincial and Local Government, the hon Mufamadi, for giving this House a budget speech of his department. I would also like to congratulate Ms Ntombazana Botha on her appointment as Deputy Minister of this department.]

The initiative by the ANC Government to have a rural-specific … [Interjections.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! Hon member, can I just ask the Table to sort out the interpreting problem? There is no interpretation. [Interjections.] Continue, hon member.

Miss M N BUTHELEZI: Chairperson, the initiative by the ANC Government to have a rural-specific development programme in the form of the Integrated Sustainable Rural Development Strategy is historic and we in the local government sphere are very excited about the move. As a committee we congratulate the Department of Provincial and Local Government and wish it good luck in its assignment to co-ordinate the implementation of this very important programme.

The portfolio committee is convinced that with the recent and still to be finalised restructuring process there is a better relationship between the structures of the department and the policy objectives of especially co- operative governance, at the core of which are the integrated development strategies.

The important feature of the ISRDS is that it cuts across all departments and spheres of government. Therefore, central to its implementation is the creation of strategic partnerships in different spheres of government with the private sector, NGOs and civil society. We hope that the Department of Provincial and Local Government will receive co-operation in this regard, as the success of this programme will in essence mean that the country is making progress with its project of poverty alleviation. The Department of Provincial and Local Government will use the notion of a basket of services and a commitment register to facilitate participation by the departments. The support and participation of the Independent Development Trust is most welcome, as it is known for its experience in rural development, especially its involvement in the implementation of the Community-based Public Works Programmes.

The vision, strategy and plans of the ISRDS are fairly developed. The Minister has indicated during his speech that so far 13 nodes have been approved and will start in earnest on 1 July. The identified nodes were determined by using indicators of poverty, and lack of infrastructure and institutional capacity. It is estimated that each node will directly benefit about 10 million people. We realistically hope to see the results by the year 2010.

The Local Government: Municipal Systems Act of 2000 will play a significant role to facilitate the implementation of the integrated development programmes at the nodal points. Through the process of integrated development planning the Act provides an opportunity for communities to be actively involved in the process of drawing up their development plans. The integrated development plans will therefore be used as key strategic planning instruments for the implementation of the nodes. The implementation of the Act is phased and Chapter 5, which deals with integrated development plans, will come into operation in July this year.

Sizocela uNgqongqoshe woMnyango ukuthi lapho okufanele ukuthi umphakathi uzibandakanye khona ohlelweni lwama-IDP, uMnyango usifundisele abantu bakithi ngoba siyazi ukuthi esikhathini esedlule babekhishwe ngaphandle, bekhishwe inyumbazane. Laba ababehola ohulumeni ababekhona ngaleso sikhathi, babengakugqizi qakala ukuhlupheka kwethu, ikakhulukazi kubantu abahlala emakhaya. Yingakho njengamanje kuyaye kubonakale sengathi abantu abafiki ezindaweni okufanele bafike kuzo ngenxa yokuthi abanalo ulwazi olwanele. (Translation of Zulu paragraph follows.)

[Miss M N BUTHELEZI: We would like to appeal to the Minister to ask his department to teach people to participate in the IDP programmes. It should teach our people, because we know that in the past they were excluded and isolated. The leaders in the former regimes did not care about the poverty of the black people, especially the rural people. That is why it now seems as if people are not participating. It is because they do not have the knowledge of how to do it.]

The project is gigantic, the institutional arrangements are in place and there is great enthusiasm. The concern of the committee is what guarantees we have to ensure we successfully operationalise the programmes. The two most important concerns are funding and the commitment of South Africans. The commitment, expressed both in the state of the nation address and the Budget Speech, to allocate R6,5 billion, among other things, is encouraging.

Government has committed infrastructure and the poverty alleviation budgets of different departments. The Department of Provincial and Local Government has also realigned the Consolidated Municipal Infrastructure Programme and the Local Economic Development Fund to have a rural bias in an effort to contribute towards the integrated development strategies. The total funding support towards the IDP process, leading to the implementation of the integrated development programme, is R100 million.

The committee recommended that the members of the legislatures, both at national and provincial level, should be actively involved in the facilitation of the development of the nodal points where they live or do their political work. [Time expired.] [Applause.]

Mrs R M SOUTHGATE: Mr Chairperson, this year’s budget allocation has increased significantly. One of the main objectives of the budget allocation is to improve the management and service efficiency of local government. To address the problem of the poor, more money must be allocated for infrastructure development and economic growth. Families across our nation are hardpressed and many are unemployed, resulting in an inability to pay for basic services. Many are indebted to the municipality and have high municipal arrears. This is a major problem for local government, as its economic viability and sustainability is jeopardised, as the primary source of financing municipalities remains the collection of local taxes and revenue.

Added to the burden on the taxpayer, the Unicity of Cape Town has applied a 7% flat-rate increase. The very people we are trying to assist have now been placed in a more precarious position. Adding insult to injury is the disgraceful conduct of some councillors, who are wasting money on things that add no value and have no relevance to the sustainability of those very municipalities. How in the world will local government ever survive?

With reference to the equitable share, guidelines must be established for the implementation of free basic services and the department must monitor how these moneys are expended. The Consolidated Municipal Infrastructure Programme and the Local Economic Development Fund are directed to the poor and must address the backlog of infrastructure to poor households.

The department must proactively ensure that municipalities who need the funds the most submit projects to create employment opportunities for their respective communities. The integrated development plan is the local instrument used where special and priority areas are laid out.

Interdepartmental co-operation is essential to ensure that the 13 nodal points identified by the President are developed, and more nodal points must be identified for future development. Development is stunted due to the lack of strong leadership and capacity of municipalities. Capacity- building is vital for the sustainability of local government.

The R6 billion set aside for the Integrated Sustainable Rural … [Time expired.]

Chief M NONKONYANA: Mhlalingaphambili namalungu abekekileyo eNdlu, ndiphakamela ukuba ndenze ilizwi lokuncoma eli sebe lesizwe liphethwe nguTrevor Manuel ngonika isebe lam isabelo esithe xhaxhe kunesonyaka ophelileyo. [Madam Speaker and hon members of the House, firstly I would like to congratulate the hon Mr Trevor Manuel’s department for giving us a higher budget this year than the previous year.]

In participating in this debate on 8 June 2000, I expressed concern about the state of the roads all over our country, particularly in the Eastern Cape province. I did mention the fact that a bridge on the public road leading to Mfundisweni institution could collapse, with disastrous consequences, and that the Tyinirha River bridge in Mount Frere had collapsed, and people were using step ladders. I am pleased to report to this hon House that, as I speak, this department has actually constructed not only a new road but also a new bridge over the Tyinirha River. [Applause.] As if that is not enough, they have also budgeted for and, as I speak, people in Mfundisweni, in my constituency, are repairing, that bridge. [Applause.] I want to thank this department as well as the Wildcoast district council, now the Alfred Nzo district council, for a job well done.

During the same debate last year the hon the Minister, Comrade Mufamadi, correctly stated that, for decades, rural areas had been deprived of much- needed infrastructure, resources and development. I am pleased that in the budget of this department lots of money has been set aside for this purpose. We thank the Minister, the director-general, Zam Titus, and the staff, for a job well done.

The President, Comrade Thabo Mbeki, in opening this Parliament, reiterated the ANC Government’s policy of accelerating the provision of a better life for all in the rural areas. In line with this policy, O R Tambo district council, Alfred Nzo district council, Ukhahlamba district council and many others have been identified to receive a financial boost for rural development.

The Government has also adopted an Intergrated Sustained Rural Development Strategy, in line with the Rural Development Programme announced by the President last year. This strategy must be socially cohesive and resilient, and must economically empower rural communities to contribute to the growth and global competitiveness of our beloved South Africa.

Never, never again, shall rural communities be reservoirs for cheap labour and a dumping ground for the urban elite. [Applause.] The ANC appeals to all concerned, particularly councillors, community leaders, business communities and rural communities to make sure that the money allocated to the rural communities benefits those communities, that is, the have-nots.

Corruption, in whatever form, must be eradicated. Corrupt councillors, officials, community leaders, including leaders from the business community, whatever their political affiliation or social status may be, must be exposed and, if necessary, prosecuted. We must all declare war against criminals, especially the white-collar criminals who, more often than not, are living at the expense of the peace-loving South Africans living in rural areas.

Thanks once more to the Minister of Finance for increasing our budget this year. The department has in place a monitoring mechanism to enable it to intervene, should anything wrong emerge during the implementation of the programme which we have introduced this year.

We support this budget, and I am sure the portfolio committee in which I serve will make sure that the programmes set aside by this department are closely monitored, as we all pursue our struggle to change the lives of our people. [Applause.]

Mnr P J GROENEWALD: Mnr die Voorsitter, die agb Minister kom vanmiddag hier en hy kom maak ‘n aantal aankondigings. Dit is nie eintlik nuwe aankondigings nie, want dit was ook deel van die verkiesingsbeloftes van onder andere die ANC aan die kiesers. Die Minister kom en sê elke huishouding moet ses kiloliter gratis water, 15 kw gratis elektrisiteit en gratis vullisverwydering ontvang. Dit klink baie goed en die VF verwelkom dit as dit vir alle huishoudings geld. Dit moet ons baie duidelik sê. Die vraag is egter of plaaslike regering dit kan bekostig.

As ‘n mens kyk na plaaslike owerhede …

‘n AGB LID: Ja!

Mnr P J GROENEWALD: Die agb lid sê ja. Ek wonder of hy iets weet van plaaslike regering.

Die grootste bron van inkomste van enige plaaslike owerheid was nog altyd sy verkope in krag en water. Kyk ‘n mens egter na die finansiële toestand van munisipaliteite in Suid-Afrika, is dit baie duidelik dat plaaslike owerhede in ‘n krisissituasie is. Die uitstaande skuld teen Maart verlede jaar, wat die syfer is wat bekom kon word, is R7,5 miljard. Tans is dit baie moeilik om syfers by die departement te kry, want vra ‘n mens ‘n vraag, word daar gesê dit is moeilik om met die plaaslike owerhede te skakel.

In 1995 het die departement ‘n projek begin met die naam ``Project Viability’’. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)

[Mr P J GROENEWALD: Mr Chairperson, the hon the Minister came here this afternoon and made a number of announcements. These were not actually new announcements, because they were also part of the election promises of the ANC, inter alia, to the voters. The Minister came and said that every household should receive six kilolitres of free water, 15 kilowatts of free electricity and free refuse removal. This sounds wonderful and the FF welcomes it if it applies to all households. We must say that very clearly. However, the question is whether local government can afford it.

If one looks at local authorities …

An HON MEMBER: Yes!

Mr P J GROENEWALD: The hon member says yes. I wonder whether he knows anything about local government.

The biggest source of revenue of any local authority has always been its sale of electricity and water. However, if one looks at the financial position of municipalities in South Africa, it is very clear that local authorities are in a crisis situation. The outstanding debt by March last year, which is the figure which could be obtained, was R7,5 billion. It is currently very difficult to get figures from the department, because if one asks a question one is told that it is difficult to liaise with the local authorities.

In 1995 the department initiated a project called ``Project Viability’’.]

I suppose the hon the Minister knows about Project Viability.

Wat het hulle gevind met Projek Viability? Hulle het gevind dat net 30% van stadsrade se jaarlikse kontantvloeibegrotings deur die betrokke rade goedgekeur is. Dit beteken 70% van die rade se begrotings is nie behoorlik goedgekeur nie. Net 39% het beperkte kredietbestuurprosedures en 5% het geen sulke prosedures nie. Verder het hulle bevind 89% het nog geen munisipalediensvennootskappe nie. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraph follows.)

[What did they find with Project Viability? They found that only 30% of the annual cash flow budgets of town councils were approved by the relevant councils. This means that 70% of the councils’ budgets were not properly approved. Only 39% had limited credit management procedures and 5% had no such procedures. Furthermore, they found that 89% had no municipal service partnerships yet.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! Order, hon member.

Mnr N J GOGOTYA: Mnr die Voorsitter, op ‘n punt van orde: Is die agb lid bereid om te sê wat met Projek Orania gebeur het?

Mnr P J GROENEWALD: Mnr die Voorsitter, die agb lid moet liewer sit, want hy kan geen intelligente opmerking maak nie. [Tussenwerpsels.]

As ‘n mens kyk na die finansiële bestuur van stadsrade is daar ‘n ernstige probleem. ‘n Sekere prof Werner Sybrands, wat ‘n konsultant van plaaslike regering is, som dit as volg op:

Die gevolg en die probleem is wanadministrasie, ‘n gebrek aan kundigheid, wetteloosheid en ‘n afwesige politieke wil. Dit is die oorsake van die finansiële stand van sake by munisipaliteite.

Daar is swak finansiële bestuur. Daar is nie kundigheid nie, want vir die Regering is dit mos belangriker om regstellende aksie by amptenare in te stel, en nie na meriete te kyk nie, as om te verseker dat behoorlike finansiële bestuur toegepas word. Sommige burgemeesters is spandabelrig, byvoorbeeld die burgemeester van Pretoria, of Tshwane Metropolitan Council. Hy wil nou R2,5 miljoen hê vir ‘n huis. Hier was ander sprekers wat verwys het na die spandabelrigheid van burgemeesters onder die nuwe sisteem. Plaaslike regerings kan dit nie bekostig nie.

Verder wil die VF ook waarsku dat uitvoerende burgemeesters daarteen moet waak om nie net altyd polities populêr te probeer wees nie. ‘n Goeie voorbeeld is, en ek dink die DA moet met hulle burgemeester praat, die agb burgemeester van Kaapstad wat straatname wil verander, wat Waalstraat en Adderleystraat wil verander na De Klerk- en Mandelastrate.

‘n AGB LID: Hoekom nie?

Mnr P J GROENEWALD: Voorsitter, ek sal vir die agb lid sê hoekom nie. Dit kos die sakeman geld. Hy moet sy briefhoofde gaan verander, want sy straatadres het mos nou verander. Dit lyk my die agb lid gee nie om vir die feit dat die sakeman daardie uitgawes moet aangaan nie. Dit kos geld as die straatname verander. Dan is die vraag: met ‘n volgende verkiesing is daar ‘n nuwe regering, of ‘n ander politieke party aan bewind, en dié wil weer Nelson Mandela- en Thabo Mbeki-strate hê. Wat gaan dit die sakeman dan weer kos? Ons moet nie probeer om altyd polities populêr te wees en op dié wyse die belasingbetaler uiteindelik benadeel nie.

Ek wil graag hê die agb Minister moet ons antwoord. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)

[Mr N J GOGOTYA: Mr Chairperson, on a point of order: Is the hon member prepared to tell us what has happened to Project Orania?

Mr P J GROENEWALD: Mr Chairperson, the hon member should rather sit down, because he cannot make an intelligent comment. [Interjections.]

If one looks at the financial management of town councils there is a serious problem. A certain Prof Werner Sybrands, who is a local government consultant, sums it up as follows:

Die gevolg en die problem is wanadministrasie, ‘n gebrek aan kundigheid, wettelooshid en ‘n afwesige politieke wil. Dit is die oorsake van die finansiële stand van sake by munisipaliteite.

There is poor financial management. There is no expertise, because it is more important to the Government to implement affirmative action among officials, and not to consider merit, than to ensure that proper financial management is applied. Some mayors are extravagant, for example the mayor of Pretoria, or Tshwane Metropolitan Council. He now wants R2,5 million for a house. There have been other speakers who have referred to the extravagance of mayors under the new system. Local governments cannot afford this.

Furthermore, the FF also wants to warn that executive mayors must guard against always simply trying to be politically popular. A good example of this, and I think the DA should speak to their mayor, is the hon mayor of Cape Town, who wants to change street names, who wants to change Wale Street and Adderley Street to De Klerk Street and Mandela Street.

An HON MEMBER: Why not?

Mr P J GROENEWALD: Chairperson, I will tell the hon member why not. It costs the businessmen money. They have to change their letterheads, because their street addresses have now changed. It seems to me the hon member is not interested in the fact that businessmen will have to incur those expenses. It costs money if street names change. Then the question is: after another election there may be a new government or a different political party in power, and they might want Nelson Mandela Street and Thabo Mbeki Street. What is it then going to cost the businessmen again? We must not always try to be politically popular and in this way eventually put the taxpayer at a disadvantage.

I would like the hon the Minister to answer us.]

Where is the hon the Minister going to get the money to pay for the services? He must please answer that question. If he gets it from the central Government it is still taxpayers’ money. We cannot afford this.

Mr J J KGARIMETSA: Chairperson, hon members, may I thank you all. The hon the President in his state of the nation address in February this year made a call to all the people of South Africa to dedicate this year to building unity in action. The project to transform the local government sphere poses a particular challenge for all to build unity in action. Rural areas are the main focus in the development thrust of the Government. Our traditional leaders have a special duty to heed the call made by the hon the President and unite our rural communities in development. [Applause.]

The traditional leaders and their institutions are the most important component of our society and are well placed to facilitate and ensure that the transformation process at the local government sphere benefits the rural areas. The time has come to stop politicising issues of traditional leadership but to work towards promoting the social development of especially the rural communities.

The state of the nation address and the Budget Speech made pointed commitments to the programmes of integrated rural development. My colleagues have already dealt with how Government plans to develop rural areas from subsistence economies to areas of economic development that are self-sustainable and competitive in the global market.

The Integrated Sustainable Rural Development Strategy calls for traditional leaders to carry out their customary role to facilitate the implementation of this programme to the benefit of rural communities. The legislative framework flowing from the White Paper on Local Government provides instruments and mechanisms to create truly developmental municipal entities, and these include the IDB processes and the formation of ward committees.

While we agree that there has been a delay in defining the powers and roles of traditional leaders, we do not think that the implementation of development programmes should be held back, as this postpones the provision of the better life that the majority of the poor were promised.

As the ANC, we know and understand that the culture and history of our people has been that of traditional and customary institutions and values. Our long-standing commitment to and respect for these institutions is in fact defined by this history.

I cannot go on and on demonstrating what the ANC has done and continues to do to respect and restore the dignity of traditional leaders and institutions. Our view is that central to the roles and functions of traditional leaders or vice versa, local government’s role is to unite communities and facilitate development for the rural communities. In the words of Inkosi Mzimela, we should promote the welfare of the people in the new democracy. We appreciate the development work that the National House of Traditional Leaders has done and continues to do towards the development of communities. The chairperson of the House of Traditional Leaders, Inkosi Mzimela, informed the portfolio committee recently of the developmental partnership they have established with some private sector companies and the work being done around HIV/Aids projects and awareness projects. We are convinced that through this body the traditional leaders will respond to the challenges of local government transformation and heed the call of the hon the President to build unity in action. [Applause.]

The process of consultation takes a long time but we are happy to report that the Bill with regard to the powers and functions of traditional leaders will be introduced in Parliament soon. The Green and White Papers on traditional leadership and institutions will also be processed during this year. The traditional leaders have put forward proposals for amendments to Chapter 12 of the Constitution. This should be appreciated, but the democratic nature of our Government will necessitate that if the amendments are considered at all, all South Africans will need to be consulted. As the Constitution was born out of the views of all South Africans, its amendments will also take the same route.

We will examine the proposals by the traditional leaders with and against the interests of the people for a sustainable solution and development. We hope that our traditional leaders will contribute to the process of change. Transformation has been successful to the point where, to use the words of the hon the President, ``hope has taken the place of despair’’.

The delegations from the National House of Traditional Leaders have shared their experiences from their tour of New Zealand with the portfolio committee. They reported that the New Zealanders said that South Africa was advanced in the way it handled traditional leaders. They were particularly impressed by the concept of the National House of Traditional Leaders. [Time expired.] [Applause.]

Mr P H K DITSHETELO: Chairperson, may I start by congratulating the hon Botha on her appointment to the Cabinet as Deputy Minister for Provincial and Local Government.

Many questions rose to the surface in this Vote debate when it was announced that the President, the Minister and premiers had formed a forum at which issues affecting provinces would be discussed on a regular basis. We thought that some of the burning issues, such as those affecting traditional leaders, would be resolved, but the standoff between them and Government persists. The impasse between the kgosi and the Ministry has to be resolved as a matter of urgency. The Bill on their powers and functions should not be mentioned without it being presented for discussion.

On briefing the portfolio committee on the budget, the Minister said that it should be remembered that the developing local government requires that capable people be attracted to municipalities as councillors. Parties have done just that. These capable people are now made to pick up the crumbs under other people’s tables.

Government knew that local government elections were going to be held and should have prepared the salary scales alongside the legislation they piloted through Parliament in respect of these elections. It is as if they first wanted to see who would win and only then determine scales on that basis. We can only advise that if one fails to plan, one plans to fail.

The running of crossboundary municipalities tends to create a headache. It is not as simple as when the affected MECs sent out gazettes on the matter. Provinces with bigger towns in the municipalities concerned are left burdened with the costs. It may be in the interests of good governance that a constitutional review is done to adjust the boundaries of provinces to ensure that one province runs the municipality. We can take the word of the Minister who says that boundaries are not cast in stone. [Time expired.]

Mr J M NGUBENI: Chairperson, hon members, during the presidential address at the opening of Parliament, the President mentioned that the municipal infrastructure programme was beginning to make progress. He further said that local government finance management needed to improve to enable vigorous attention to critical matters affecting local government.

The Cabinet decided in December 1999 that the Consolidated Municipal Infrastructure Programme or CMIP should be redirected to facilitate the speeding up of the establishment of infrastructure and service delivery. The realignment of the CMIP and the approval of the Local Economic Development Fund or LEDF bears testimony to the President’s commitment to attending to critical local government programmes that aim to address the legacy of past policies, and the backlogs in municipal infrastructure and local development.

The CMIP and the LEDF are the two strategic delivery programmes of local government, channelled through conditional grants to municipalities and directed towards the poorest of the poor. The ANC is consistent in its commitment to tackle the legacy of apartheid, colonialism, poverty and underdevelopment. That includes profound imbalances in the economy and inequitable access to basic services.

This commitment emanates from the holistic strategic intervention of the ANC based on the principles of the RDP. The objectives of the CMIP and the LEDF are consistent within the principles to establish developmental municipal entities as outlined in the White Paper on Local Government and the Constitution. The Minister and his staff are to be commended. Whilst faced with the mammoth task of restructuring the department, the Minister was able to put greater focus on integration and acceleration of service delivery and development. In this context, where it matters most, the RDP is widening its impact and the ANC is on course for sustainable delivery.

From its inception in 1996 until March 2001, the CMIP has allocated R3,3 billion to 1 989 projects. The LEDF has to date allocated R111 million to 120 projects, and created 1 817 full-time and 1 813 part-time jobs. During the same period up to March 2001, more than seven billion person days of employment were created. Of this, 12% benefited women, 30% the youth and 58% men.

The RDP, at its conceptualisation stage, was never meant to have an urban bias. It is, however, exciting that the CMIP, as a strategically focused programme, is increasing its rural orientation and has impacted on a wider scale. Up to March 2001 48% of CMIP funds were allocated to projects in rural areas.

The immoral antitransformation apartheid masters and madams, including hon Gloria Borman here, pretending to be democrats and chief custodians of morality and democracy, inflicted untold miseries on the masses of this country. During their days, municipal infrastructure collapsed in the townships and there was no delivery of quality services and no municipal infrastructure in the rural areas. Unemployment soared and poverty levels increased. [Interjections.]

Today, mischievously so, they argue that the ANC is not delivering on its promises. These cowards are driven by anger and bitterness about our freedom and the consistency of the ANC in delivering to and improving the lives of ordinary South Africans. [Applause.] Today, because of the consistency of the ANC, people have attained their freedom and people are governing.

The two strategic programmes, the CMIP and the LEDF, are not being implemented in isolation of the understanding of the principle of co- operative governance that ensures institutional arrangements, project implementation and management. The best formula to address poverty and to improve the status of women, especially in rural areas, is to resort to programmes whose criteria are pro-poor and rurally biased.

In conclusion, the skewed policies of the past allowed cities to grow artificially, not organically, hence we are confronted by problems of this magnitude and proportion. Delivery-oriented local government, underpinned by the commitments of urban renewal and rural development, driven by the ANC-led Government, is the only solution for cleaning up the mess created by these apartheid clowns. [Applause.]

Miss S RAJBALLY: Chairperson, may I, at this moment, take this opportunity to congratulate Ntombazana Botha on her new position.

Malibongwe! [Let us praise it!]

HON MEMBERS: Igama lamakhosikazi! [The name of women!]

Miss S RAJBALLY: Chairperson, the MF believes that provincial and local government play a crucial role in the legislation of our country, as they work closely with the people at grass-roots level. Local government caters for the basic needs of the individual, such as water, sanitation and electricity. It works daily with real issues affecting individuals and communities, and takes up concerns at provincial and national level.

The MF is gratified to note that the provincial governments have made tremendous progress in as far as finance is concerned, and have dealt with the overdraft problems that are affecting provinces in an effective manner. It is hoped that there will be economic growth in all provinces over the next three years. The MF is confident that the Department of Provincial and Local Government will be successful in its endeavours to develop and promote a national system of co-operative governance, and to support the development of provincial and local government.

The MF welcomes the Government’s commitment to the Municipal Infrastructure Investment Unit, whose role involves leveraging private sector funding for municipal service delivery. We also welcome an increased allocation to the Consolidated Municipal Infrastructure Programme, as this allows the Government to subsidise the capital costs of providing for much-needed municipal services and facilities such as water, solid waste disposal, community lighting, clinics and cemeteries.

The MF recommends that all councillors clearly define and establish themselves in communities, and work with established members of the community when dealing with problems concerning social and economic development, the promotion of a civil culture and poverty alleviation issues. It is important for councillors to work closely with the community and traditional leaders, in order to equip themselves with knowledge and empower themselves to effectively cope with social problems such as crime, joblessness, homelessness, social exclusion and marginalisation.

The MF is looking forward to institutional restructuring. Research indicates that many municipalities view the current changes as opportunities to make their institutions more developmental and democratic. The MF also agrees with some stakeholders who felt that it was necessary for institutional spaces to be created for more cross-departmental financial or outcomes-based ways of thinking or acting in municipalities, as this would bring about effective governance. The MF supports Vote 5 for provincial and local government.

Mr S A MSHUDULU: Chairperson, in any election the word ``delivery’’ becomes a buzzword. Through its election manifesto the ANC made a pledge, or a commitment, not only to improve the lives of the people of this country, but also to speed up change and delivery. The ANC have already done needs analyses in areas where delivery of basic services is most needed. These deficiencies manifest themselves in the form of inequitable access to basic services and gross disparities in income levels and unemployment. Seventy per cent of the poor live in rural areas.

The other problem is that the ANC is faced with an uneven financial capacity of municipalities, due to the skewed legacy of apartheid economic development. It is faced with unfunded mandates to local government, which have frustrated capacity to deliver in the past. It is also faced with a low collection of service charges, not only from the poor, but also from the rich and big business, as we all know, and, without being exhaustive, lack of resources and both human and technological capacity.

It is normal, under these circumstances, to agree and conclude that these problems are either personal, occupational or organisational. The lastmentioned, namely organisational, was of course the biggest problem, because it has to do with a system of governance and management. No one in his right mind or senses in a democratic country could have expected any good system of governance from apartheid rule.

In order to change this environment, the ANC-led Government had to rely on its progressive policies to change old laws and replace them with new ones that would create an enabling environment. These laws include the Constitution and legislation governing municipal services partnerships.

Let me remind this House that service delivery is underpinned by the fundamental principles of the Constitution. For the ANC-led Government to deliver accordingly, instruments and strategies need to be put in place, but above all, compliance by both local communities and municipalities becomes necessary. It is very necessary that the issue of cost of service rendered be taken seriously by those who receive services and can afford to pay, but are not prepared to pay. It is important that municipalities have a tariff policy that will be catering for the haves and the have-nots. By-laws should be passed to give effect to this. The issue of service provision cannot be addressed if we do not assess the capacity of municipalities in terms of delivery of basic services, that is water, sanitation, electricity, refuse removal, health and environment. The assessment results will then determine options for service delivery, which can include the municipality concerned, another unit, another municipality or an external mechanism, by entering into a service delivery agreement.

Before I discuss process, it is important that I unpack what free basic service delivery means to the poor. The provision of free water and sanitation has already started in some provinces, for example the Free State, through the indigent grant. This has also been achieved directly and indirectly, through disaster management projects, as our Minister mentioned earlier. One would urge all municipal councils not to overlook the importance of sanitation, health and environmental awareness.

I do not have to mention the issue of electricity again, because the Minister has already covered it, but I need to emphasise that electricity does contribute to a better life, and even to local economic development when communities are connected. The more economic activities the better. Payment of services will help in maintaining the provision of services that will contribute to sustainable development.

The principle for implementation is to try to ensure that the poor have access to electricity at affordable rates. People who are unemployed and the poor will be subsidised. Those who are employed and can afford must pay for services received so that the service can be supplied and improved continuously. Generally, we know that poor families, with underpaid breadwinners, are big families. The free basic level of provision may not meet the need of such families in terms of water and electricity. For the long term, the poor will receive welfare, and the efficient use of free electricity and water can bring relief to the poor and even sustain some of the households.

The issue of roads cannot be ignored, as it would not be sensible or reasonable not to accept that without roads, we cannot access all the things we need. Lack of capacity to deliver by some municipalities is worrying. It was for this reason that a need for the assessment of municipalities had to be legislated in the Constitution, as well as in the Local Government: Municipal Systems Act, which entails the Demarcation Board’s assessment and recommendations to the MEC for intervention as well as in the Minister’s intervention. I commend the Minister for what he has done.

I must also recommend that we need to know that the usage of the Municipal Infrastructure Investment Unit would assist a lot of municipalities which do not have capacity. It will also assist those which are faced with a skills shortage, as well as those which do not have financial capacity. Because of time constraints I would urge municipalities to make sure that they involve communities.

Ka Sesotho, re ne re tla hlalosa feela hore ho a hlokahala hore setjhaba se nke karolo ha masepala kapa khansele e nka diqeto ka tsamaiso ya dihlokwa, hobane ho bohlokwa hore, ha eba ho tla thusa kgwebo, baahi e be bona le bona, ba nkang karolo.

Hape, ho a hlokahala hore taba ya ho se lefe e be yona eo e leng hore baahi ba nka karolo ho yona, ha khansele e nka diqeto. [Ditlatse.] (Translation of Sesotho paragraphs follows.)

[In Sesotho, we would just explain that it is necessary for the nation to take part in the decision-making of the municipalities or councils with regard to the management of facilities, because it is important that, if it will be to the benefit of business, the citizens should also be the ones who take part.

Again, it is important that the citizens should take part in matters relating to unpaid accounts, when the council makes its decisions. [Applause.]]

Mnr C AUCAMP: Geagte Voorsitter, op die oog af lyk dit asof derdevlak regering redelik in plek is. Die hele land is afgebaken, vreedsame verkiesings het plaasgevind en elke sentimeter grond in die land is onder ‘n plaaslike owerheid. Daar is strukture en meganismes, maar as ‘n mens ‘n bietjie dieper delf, dan lyk die prentjie nie so rooskleurig nie.

Kom ons toets die eerste tree van die nuwe munisipale owerhede aan ‘n paar bepalings van die Grondwet. Artikel 151(3) bepaal:

‘n Munisipaliteit het die reg om op eie inisiatief … plaaslike regeringsaangeleenthede … te bestuur …

Artikel 151(4) bepaal:

Die nasionale of ‘n plaaslike regering mag nie ‘n munisipaliteit se vermoë of reg om sy bevoegdhede uit te oefen … kompromitteer of belemmer nie.

En artikel 154(1) bepaal:

Die nasionale regering en provinsiale regerings moet … munisipaliteite se vermoë om hul eie sake te bestuur … steun en versterk.

Nou kan ek op die papier aangaan. Ek het ``paper-jam’’ op bladsy een gehad. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)

[Mr C AUCAMP: Hon Chairperson, at first glance it would seem as if third- tier government is fairly well in place. The entire country has been demarcated, peaceful elections have taken place and every centimetre of land in the country is under a local authority. There are structures and mechanisms, but if one digs a bit deeper, the picture is not that rosy.

Let us test the first step of the new municipal authorities against a few provisions of the Constitution. Section 151(3) provides:

A municipality has the right to govern, on its own initiative, the local government affairs …

Section 151(4) provides:

The national or a provincial government may not compromise or impede a municipality’s ability or right to exercise its powers …

And section 154(1) provides:

The national government and provincial governments … must support and strengthen the capacity of municipalities to manage their own affairs …

Now I can carry on in this vein regarding what appears on paper. I had a ``paper jam’’ on page one.]

Surely, the intention of the Constitution is federalism, decentralised local government and local self-determination, but local office bearers became puppets on a string.

What happens in Pofadder and Phalaborwa is determined essentially not by the local communities, but by political desks and party caucuses in Cape Town or Pretoria. The local elections were in essence not the outcome of what local people desired for themselves, but part and parcel of the national struggle for power. Local government has become the battleground for the fight between political parties with national agendas. And that is wrong.

The Local Government: Municipal Structures Act provides for participatory governance and for council community engagement, involving communities in the affairs of the municipality. The recent consultation process by Usaid came to the conclusion that ``most municipalities do not know how to meet these responsibilities in practice’’. Is it not perhaps because local communities were in the first instance polarised along national party- political lines, and that municipalities are accordingly run on a winner- takes-all basis, these winners being national political parties, and not local communities?

‘n Verdere aspek is dat artikel 152(2) van die Grondwet van ‘n munisipaliteit vereis om binne sy finansiële en administratiewe vermoë die oogmerke van dienslewering, ontwikkeling en ‘n veilige en gesonde omgewing te verwesenlik. Artikel 153(a) bepaal dat ‘n munisipaliteit in sy begroting en administrasie voorrang sal verleen aan die basiese behoeftes van die gemeenskap.

Wat gebeur egter in die praktyk? Dis nuwe en luukse raadsale, gepantserde half-miljoen motors en twee-en-‘n-half miljoen huise vir uitvoerende burgemeesters, luukse inhuldigingsgeleenthede wat saam ook miljoene bedra vir ‘n enkele dag se uitspattigheid. Glad nie ‘n goeie begin nie. ``There is no fatter cat than a municipal cat.’’ Dit is opvallend dat hierdie siekte juis die ergste uitgemasel het in die mega-strukture, waar plaaslike regering bestuur die verste is van die plaaslike gemeenskap. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)

[A further aspect is that section 152(2) of the Constitution requires of a municipality to strive, within its financial and administrative capacity, to achieve the objectives of service delivery, development and a safe and healthy environment. Section 153(a) provides that a municipality must give priority in its budgeting and administration to the basic needs of the community.

What is happening in practice, however? There are new and luxurious council chambers, armoured vehicles costing half a million, houses costing two and a half million for executive mayors, luxurious inauguration ceremonies also costing millions for a single day’s extravagance. Not a good start at all. ``There is no fatter cat than a municipal cat.’’ It is noticeable that this phenomenon is most prevalent in the megastructures, where local government is the furthest from the local community.]

This is consistent with my plea for decentralisation. I do not say this is in order for the Minister to intervene, but to the relevant local communities, in order that they can derail the local gravy trains.

Ek wil graag fokus op drie baie belangrike aspekte verwant aan hierdie begrotingspos. Eerstens, die AEB verwelkom die inisiatief van die IVP om wetgewing in te dien vir die daarstelling van ‘n vierde vlak van regering, wat statutêre erkenning aan rade van spesifieke kultuur- en taalgemeenskappe moet verleen. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraph follows.)

[I would like to focus on three very important aspects pertaining to this Vote. Firstly, the AEB welcomes the initiative of the IFP to introduce legislation to establish a fourth tier of government, which must give statutory recognition to councils of specific cultural and linguistic communities.]

The President’s reply to my question yesterday that in the national electoral system the issue of cultural and linguistic constituencies can be discussed, proves that at least at local level this is not so far-fetched and section 235 of the Constitution paves the way for this kind of legislation. If the IFP, of course with the indispensable support of the AEB, can succeed with this legislation, it will be a giant step towards developing South Africa from a liberal democracy to a plural democracy, tailormade for the diversity of our population.

Tweedens, die saak van bevoegdhede van tradisionele leiers is aan hierdie portefeulje gekoppel. Daar so baie hieroor in die debat gesê. Ek slaan hierdie deel oor. Al wat ek kan sê is dat die tradisionele leiers hul samewerking vreedsaam gegee het. Hulle het die fopspeen gesuig wat die Regering aan hulle gegee het. Daar het weer vyf maande verloop en nog steeds niks gebeur nie. Promises, promises! Nou raak die mense ongeduldig en dreig om munisipaliteite tot stilstand te bring. As dit gebeur, is die blaam agter die naam van die ANC-regering. Mens hou nie mense so vir die gek nie. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraph follows.)

[Secondly, the issue of the powers of traditional leaders is linked to this portfolio. A great deal has been said about this in the debate. I shall not discuss this part. All I can say is that the traditional leaders co- operated peacefully. They accepted the pacifier the Government presented them with. A further five months have now elapsed and still nothing has happened. Promises, promises! Now the people are becoming impatient and are threatening to cause municipalities to grind to a halt. If that happens, it will be the fault of the ANC Government. One does not make a fool of people like that.]

Thirdly, regarding the section 185 commission, exactly a year ago I could start my speech during this Vote with the following words:

The hon the Minister informed this House today that the draft Bill on the establishment of this Commission has been presented to Cabinet.

Dit is nou ‘n jaar later. Dit is vyf jaar na die die aanvang van die Grondwet, artikel 185 inkluis. Niks het gebeur nie. Promises, promises!

Die Openbare Beskermer, Selby Baqwa, het onlangs gesê dat die ingebreke bly van die Regering om aandag te gee aan sy beloftes aan die amakhosi, by ontvangs van ‘n klag vir wanadministrasie ondersoek kan word. Ek stel vandag die vraag aan mnr Baqwa: Geld dieselfde nie omtrent artikel 185 nie? Dis immers meer as ‘n belofte wat verbreek word. Dit is die Grondwet wat nie nagekom word nie. Ek wil vandag vir die Minister drie vrae vra: (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)

[It is now a year later. It is five years since the Constitution came into effect, including section 185. Nothing has happened. Promises, promises!

The Public Protector, Selby Baqwa, said recently that the Government’s failure to give attention to its promises to the amakhosi can be investigated if a complaint of maladministration is received. Today I want to put the following question to Mr Baqwa: Does the same not apply with regard to section 185? This is, after all, more than a promise that has not been broken. It is a section of the Constitution which is not being implemented.

I want to ask the Minister three questions today:]

Must we really believe that the Minister takes the Constitution seriously in this regard? He mentioned nothing about the section 185 commission in his speech. Can he inform this House in his reply: Has this Bill been filed in file 13? If not, when will it be tabled for deliberation? Thirdly, how serious are he and the Government about the rights of cultural, linguistic and religious communities, and will this Bill address this issue substantively? He should please answer us.

Mr A G LYLE: Mr Chairperson, it is indeed shocking for the hon Peter Smith to say that we may as well consult Pick ‘n Pay and Checkers. This smacks of fathomless disrespect for the consultative processes that led us to this democratic system. I want to remind Mr Smith that it is a democratic system that is respected by the international world. This is not a banana republic. [Interjections.] Pick ‘n Pay and Checkers, I want to remind Mr Smith, are supermarkets where one buys groceries at the end of the month.

During the apartheid regime capacity-building in this country was disjointed, not focused and carried out on an ad hoc basis. Various institutions were tasked with capacity-building and training. The lack of co-ordination resulted in the duplication of training programmes. The Skills Development Act of 1998 brought all capacity-building and training under one roof. This resulted in the establishment of the Local Government Education and Training Board and, furthermore, the founding of the Local Government, Water and Related Services Seta. Chapter 4 of the Local Government: Municipal Structures Act gives explicit expression to the demands of the Skills Development Act. The Local Government: Municipal Structures Act talks about community participation, that a municipality must develop a culture of municipal governance which complements formal representative government with a system of participatory governance, and must for this purpose contribute to the capacity-building of the local municipality to enable it fully to participate in the affairs of the community. Councillors and staff should foster community participation. A municipal council must use its resources and annually allocate funds in its budget for the implementation of capacity-building and training programmes. The political and administrative components of all municipalities will undergo skills empowerment training. In this regard we would want to remind municipalities to be mindful of the gender issue and earnestly address this matter.

In view of the mammoth task facing the new municipalities during this transformatory period it becomes extremely important for municipalities to embark intensively on a capacity-building and training programme so as to make this difficult transformation a resounding success. I would like to quote the following words by the chairperson of the Local Government, Water and Related Services, Seta, councillor Jimmy Matlala, and I quote:

The second democratic local election on 5 December 2000 ushered in the final phase of local government transition. Local government councillors and officials are faced with the challenges of creating new municipalities with structures and systems that will allow for sustainable, accountable, democratic and service-delivery-centred local government.

The skills development levies collected by the South African Revenue Service from local government and water employers will create a reliable source for the funding of the skills development programmes. We take cognisance of the successful core councillor training programme, undertaken by the South African Local Government Association and the Danida leadership pilot project in the Eastern Cape. The abovementioned programmes were funded by the Netherlands and Danish governments respectively. For this we express our profound gratitude.

The key challenge therefore is to change the public sector from an instrument of discrimination, control and domination to an enabling service- oriented sector that empowers all the people in an accountable and transparent way. We have chosen this route as it is the ruling party’s stated objective and vision for transformation and development to take place in a systematic manner. This approach will certainly combat institutional decay and resistance to change in our municipalities.

Our high regard for capacity-building and skills transfer is demonstrated by the fact that this was done even during the incarceration of our comrades on Robben Island, in an environment that was not conducive to learning. To a large extent capacity-building and training will address the poverty problem and restore the dignity and self-worth of the men and women of this country. [Applause.]

Mr G A J GROBLER: Mr Chairperson, the success of any municipality depends on confident and properly trained councillors, hard-working and trustworthy employees and all residents realising that one must pay for services.

To mention but three: For the past five years the ANC- controlled councils showed us how councils should not be run. The danger lights are again flickering. The poor people are dying of cold while mayors are buying luxury vehicles. I served as a mayor for four years and the nicest thing for me was to walk down the street and listen to ratepayers’ problems without hordes of bodyguards. I never regarded myself as so bad that people wanted to kill me.

We all, hopefully, accept that in most wards free and fair elections were held. Why then is it that the ANC, where they have lost, do not want to co- operate? Let me give an example. At Midvaal in Gauteng the ANC lost to the DA on 5 December and on Saturday, 8 December, the ANC arranged an unsuccessful march in Meyerton to make life difficult for the DA. During the first council meeting people from the informal settlement of Sicelo marched to the council chambers to try to disrupt the first meeting.

Ek moet sê die ANC het darem ook so ‘n bietjie hulp gehad van ‘n lid van die VF genaamd Peters, wat ook ‘n ontwrigtende eiertjie wou lê oor die taalkwessie om sake vir die DA moeilik te maak, en hy het vér tweede gekom. [I must say that the ANC actually received a bit of help from a member of the FF named Peters, who also wanted to be disruptive regarding the language issue in order to make things difficult for the DA, but who really came off second best.]

Despite all these uncalled-for actions of the ANC, the DA in Midvaal still offered them a position on the executive council, which they declined.

On a more serious note, the speedy transfer of assets and personnel to the newly formed councils, as stipulated in the Act, is of vital importance. What is, however, disturbing is the lack of co-operation between the councils. What is even more alarming is that senior politicians in Gauteng are unable or possibly unwilling to assist in speeding up these processes.

The Midvaal Council, after nearly six months and hardly any reaction from Sedibeng district and the Umfuleni Council, declared a dispute with the said two councils. Letters were also sent to the MEC for Local Government in Gauteng. Instead of getting an answer from this MEC, as one would expect, Mr Fowler launched an attack on the DA Midvaal mayor in the Gauteng legislature. Most disturbing is the fact that his attack was littered with unfounded allegations. Here are the facts: The first Fowler faux pas is that the mayor of Midvaal did not attend mayoral committee meetings. The truth is that several meetings were cancelled and some meetings were postponed three times. The second Fowler faux pas is that Mr Hartzenberg, an official, was sent on behalf of the Midvaal mayor. The truth, which Mr Fowler must take note of, is that Mr Hartzenberg is not even known to Mr Poggenpoel. According to section 155 of the Constitution it is compulsory for the MEC to support local government, develop government’s capacity and enable municipalities to perform their functions.

Mr Fowler must stop playing petty party-political games. Supporters of the DA and the ANC live in that council area and they all need services. The DA- controlled councils are for all the people. I even gave the President the names of the culprits who are not doing their work.

Finally, can I just ask the new hon Deputy Minister to use her influence. She must please get us a new chairperson of the portfolio committee, because useless Yunus can only be replaced by somebody better. [Time expired.] Mr B M SOLO: Mr Chairperson, hon Ministers, hon Deputy Ministers and hon members, I think sometimes it is necessary to be careful when we stand here and say certain things. Mr Grobler was saying a lot about Midvaal, but he does not tell the House that Midvaal consists of about five previous local councils, ie Meyerton, De Deur/Rockville, Randvaal, Eikenhoff, Vaalmarina and Suikersbosrandt. The hon member does not tell the House that 90% of these councils were actually in the hands of either the DA or the New NP or some white ratepayers.

I want to ask him now … [Interjections] … what delivery there is which they have provided for our people. Members can go there now. There has been absolutely nothing for the last five years since they have been in control of those areas. They now get so excited and talk about Midvaal, a creation of this Government. But his Midvaal is actually Meyerton, and he is proud to refer to people from the squatter camp, which is what they promoted. So I think people need to be very careful when they come here and not mislead us. [Interjections.]

People out there, particularly the poor and the underdeveloped … [Interjections.] … and, to a very large degree, South Africans from all walks of life, have once more demonstrated their support for social transformation. This can be seen to have been confirmed by the results of the latest by-elections. The results tell us that this Government, led by the ANC, should continue with its programme to fight poverty and speed up change for a better life for all. [Interjections.]

The ANC clearly stated in its 2000 manifesto that we need to join hands in the fight against poverty and underdevelopment; improve services to all communities, not only those in Meyerton; provide a free basic level of services like water and electricity to every household; work towards creating jobs where we live; work for social and economic development; and build safety and security in our communities, not only in Meyerton and Raathville. But given the material condition in this country, the backlogs …

An HON MEMBER: What about Vaalmarina?

Mr B M SOLO: Chairperson, he knows Vaalmarina very well. I am happy he mentioned it. He knows he locked up people somewhere there in some dark corner which is actually Mpumalanga. [Interjections.]

The backlogs, profound imbalances, gross disparities in the levels of social and human development, inequalities and lack of access to basic services necessitate a strategy to tackle the legacy of apartheid. All of us need to join hands and deal with this problem. South Africans, in all fairness, expect us to explicitly state our strategy to achieve this noble goal of fighting poverty together for a better life for all, not only those from disadvantaged communities. If this scourge of poverty is allowed to continue, it will have devastating effects that would affect all South Africans, including their friends in Meyerton and Vaalmarina. [Interjections.]

One way to deal with this situation and move towards addressing all these challenges is to come up with an Urban Renewal Strategy and Integrated Sustainable Rural Development Plan. Therefore, the budget is drawn up from that premise of what can be done, how can it be done and when. Now for the benefit of those who do not understand, we need to state, once more, that the Urban Renewal Strategy is about all that. Mrs G M BORMAN: Where is the strategy?

Mr B M SOLO: It is a focused strategy to address socioeconomic infrastructure and spacial imbalances, and accelerate service delivery. [Interjections.] It is very good that she is asking where that strategy is. Now the problem is that Gloria Borman relies on newspapers such as the Mail & Guardian which she has quoted here. I just want to ask her: Has she read the African Report, the paper that circulates in the Ekurhuleni Metro?

Mr M J ELLIS: Does he read the Mail & Guardian?

Mr B M SOLO: Chairperson, because she wears blinkers, the only newspaper that she read is the Mail & Guardian. I want her to compare what is in the Mail & Guardian to what is in the African Report. I think it is high time that people should go where they belong. Some people really do not belong here and people like Gloria Borman, I think, belong in the entertainment industry either as musicians or beauty contestants. [Laughter.] She is not addressing the issues. She is so obsessed with the notion: ``What can one expect from a black person?’’ [Interjections.] The question around Ekurhuleni … The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order!

Mr B M SOLO: Chairperson, the question around Ekurhuleni is the simplest matter. [Interjections.]

Mr M J ELLIS: Chairperson, on a point of order: Taking into account the context of this whole speech and these particular words about a black person, I believe that what he has said is totally out of order and I ask you to rule on that. [Interjections.] It is hate speech.

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEESS: Order! I will check the Hansard and then rule on it during the next sitting of the House. Continue, hon member.

Mr B M SOLO: Chairperson, for the first time - something that they never thought of - we are addressing the gemors [chaos] that was created by the supreme social engineer that they had and keep referring to, the late Dr H F Verwoerd. What is his name, by the way? They are still clinging to that ideology. They do not realise that the world has changed. [Interjections.]

All of them were there. For many years they clung to this ideology of Dr Verwoerd who was the Prime Minister then. He was followed by a certain Mr De Wet Nel - someone with two surnames, De Wet and Nel. He did not want to get rid of this notion of white, now he is Wet and Nel. [Laughter.] He was called a Minister of Bantu Administration and Development.

They moved on to have a certain Mr M C Botha, not our Botha here. [Laughter.] [Applause.] You see, we have all these people, but they had isolated people. And Mr M C Botha as a Minister of Bantu Administration - listen to this - had farms in Delmas. We know that he was enriching himself. They say we are corrupt, but how many farms did their Ministers have? In Delmas, wherever one goes there is an M C Botha farm, M C Botha farm and M C Botha farm. [Laughter.] So Mr Botha was a Minister of Bantu Administration and Development, and of Bantu Education.

He was later followed by Dr P G J Koornhof. There was a change of gears to Minister of Co-operation and Development, to keep on suppressing us. Then in the midst of this confusion, which still reels in their minds, there was a certain Mr C J Heunis. And when he started his nonsense, one would hear from his voice: it would go flatter and flatter. [Laughter.] Of course there were other clowns …

Mr M J ELLIS: Like you!

Mr B M SOLO: … like Dr Viljoen, Mr Fourie and Dr Mulder. [Time expired.] [Applause.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! I am happy to stay here until 8 o’clock if you want to.

The MINISTER FOR PROVINCIAL AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT: Chairperson, let me take this opportunity to thank all the hon members who participated in this debate, particularly those who made constructive proposals …

Mr M J ELLIS: Like Mr Solo!

The MINISTER: … as to what we need to do from here further to improve our system of government in the country.

The hon Mrs Borman, who is a member of the Portfolio Committee on Provincial and Local Government, in contrast to many other members of the same committee, members of goodwill, has confessed that she has joined The Mail & Guardian in moving around the country looking for problems in order to celebrate. [Laughter.] So when there are no problems, her life becomes miserable. [Interjections.] When there are indeed problems and all of us are worried and looking for solutions, she celebrates. She has a right to do so. [Interjections.]

The hon Mr Aucamp wants to know when the Bill pertaining to section 185 of the Constitution will be brought to Parliament. On one occasion I said that we were working frantically to make sure that, in the first instance, such a Bill was produced. The Bill will be ready for submission to Cabinet within the next two weeks. [Interjections.] No, the member is in a hurry. Thereafter it will come before the portfolio committee. But of course he has threatened that he will go to the Public Protector. He is free to do so. We fought for his right to go to the Public Protector. [Applause.]

The hon Mr Smith, on 8 May 2001, when I appeared before the portfolio committee for a budget hearing, said something to me which he repeated today, namely that there was a crisis in the country. I wanted to know the basis on which he came to that conclusion, and he said to me that an ultimatum had been issued by councillors, the IFP and traditional leaders in KwaZulu-Natal that, should Government not meet the demands of traditional leaders by 20 May 2001, there was going to be a crisis.

I told him there was no crisis, that there would be no crisis on 20 May, and indeed there was no crisis on 20 May. However, he continues to define a crisis into existence. [Interjections.] Today he actually spoke once more, and indicated to us what the features of this crisis were. Supposedly, councillors are refusing to make the system work. I do not know which planet this is happening on. Traditional leaders throughout this country'' - these are his words -are refusing to take their statutory positions.’’

Now, I have a letter here, which was written to Inkosi Mzimela, a copy of which was sent to me. It was written by representatives of an organisation of traditional leaders, and I will just read a paragraph from the letter. They wrote to Inkosi Mzimela in his capacity as a member of the National Coalition of Traditional Leaders, and it reads: We feel that we will be sidelined, marginalised and compromised, if we have to submit our views to the coalition for consideration, which in itself may lead to misrepresentation and other unforeseen biasness. We pride ourselves on having an exceptional relation and co-operation with the Government, and feel it would be ill-advised to compromise our communities and ourselves at this stage. We were not afforded the opportunity to participate on your elected technical committee. As indicated by yourselves, we will have to present our stance regarding the said legislation to the above-mentioned committee.

They are talking about the legislation on traditional leaders. They go on to say:

Please note, some of our members are already working jointly with local governments on service delivery and cannot at this stage withdraw their participation from these governments and leave the communities they so serve indefinitely in an indeterminate state. This will lead to anarchy.

[Applause.] So, if there is a crisis, it is a crisis arising from the fact that there are traditional leaders who are participating in these structures. I think there is a mistake which some of our traditional leaders are making, which must be corrected. It is partly reflected in the attitude of the hon Mr Smith, who treats organs of civil society with contempt. [Interjections.]

He should explain to me why traditional leaders, in a province such as KwaZulu-Natal, where we have so many organisations, would decide to co-sign a document addressed to Government with only one of these many parties within the province? Is that the position that we expect traditional leaders to take? That explains why some traditional leaders write to Inkosi Mzimela and say that they do not want to be compromised.

I think traditional leaders need to engage in some kind of soul-searching, in order to create a platform which will allow them to co-operate with these organs of civil society, which the hon Mr Smith treats with so much contempt. [Applause.]

Debate concluded. The House adjourned at 18:34. ____

            ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS

                        THURSDAY, 31 MAY 2001

ANNOUNCEMENTS:

National Assembly:

1. The Speaker:

 Bill passed by National Assembly on 31 May 2001: To be submitted to
 President of the Republic for assent:


 National Council for Library and Information Services Bill [B 44B -
2000] (National Assembly - sec 75).

TABLINGS:

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces:

Papers:

1. The Speaker and the Chairperson:

 Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements of Vote No 29
 - South African Police Service and the Secretariat for Safety and
 Security for 1999-2000 and Performance Audits of Human Resource
 Management and the Management of the Central Firearms Register [RP 138-
 2000].

COMMITTEE REPORTS:

National Assembly:

1. Report of the Portfolio Committee on Public Enterprises on the Eskom Conversion Bill [B 16 - 2001] (National Assembly - sec 75), dated 30 May 2001:

   The Portfolio Committee on Public Enterprises, having considered the subject of the Eskom Conversion Bill [B 16 - 2001] (National Assembly - sec 75), referred to it and classified by the Joint Tagging Mechanism as a section 75 Bill, reports the Bill with amendments [B 16A - 2001].