FRIDAY, 1 JUNE 2001
                                ____

                PROCEEDINGS OF THE NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
                                ____

The House met at 09:02.

The Chairperson of Committees took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayer or meditation.

ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS - see col 000.

                          NOTICES OF MOTION

Miss P S SEKGOBELA: Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the ANC:

That the House -

(1) notes that 12-year-old Nkosi Johnson, who has been living with HIV/Aids, has passed away;

(2) expresses its condolences to the family and friends of the deceased; and

(3) joins his family and friends in mourning the deceased.

Mnr A J BOTHA: Voorsitter, ek gee hiermee kennis dat ek op die volgende sittingsdag namens die DP sal voorstel:

Dat die Huis -

(1) sy kommer uitspreek oor die baie ernstige grondbesettings en saakbeskadiging in Mangete in KwaZulu-Natal;

(2) besef dat die besettings reeds oor etlike jare plaasvind en dat die Regering daarvan weet;

(3) kennis neem dat gebrek aan optrede van regeringskant af nou daartoe gelei het dat sulke besettings ook uitgebrei het na Wakkerstroom en elders; (4) die Regering dringend versoek om sy plig na te kom deur die wet toe te pas en nie van boere te verwag om onwettige optrede self te stuit nie; en

(5) by die Regering aanbeveel dat restitusiesake wat sloer, vinnig afgehandel word tot voordeel van alle belanghebbendes. (Translation of Afrikaans notice of motion follows.)

[Mr A J BOTHA: Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day I shall move on behalf of the DP:

That the House -

(1) expresses its concern about the very serious land invasions and damage to property in Mangete in KwaZulu-Natal;

(2) realises that the invasions have been taking place over several years and that the Government knows about this;

(3) takes note that a lack of action by the Government has now led to such invasions also spreading to Wakkerstroom and elsewhere;

(4) urgently requests Government to do its duty by administering justice and not expecting farmers themselves to stop illegal actions; and

(5) recommends to Government that restitution cases which have been dragging on be settled speedily to the advantage of all parties concerned.]

Mrs S A SEATON: Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the IFP:

That the House -

(1) notes from a recent media release the intended opening of the Mangaung Maximum Security Prison in Bloemfontein on 1 July 2001;

(2) further note that this facility -

   (a)  is the first joint venture between the Department of
       Correctional Services and Group 4 Correction Services SA;


   (b)  will accommodate 2 928 adult male convicted inmates with a staff
       component of 500; and


   (c)  will concentrate on the rehabilitation of long-term inmates by
       providing incentives and opportunities to take responsibility
       for their own behaviour, which they intend to achieve through a
       plan structured to facilitate 12 hours outside their cells each
       day, constructively engaged in educational, industrial and
       vocational training classes alternating with exercise, social
       work and life-skill programmes; and

(3) notes that the IFP welcomes this innovation in South African Correctional Services, congratulates both the department and the operating company and wishes them well in their endeavours.

Mrs Z A KOTA: Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I will move on behalf of the ANC:

That the House -

(1) notes that the Gauteng department of education has discovered that the headmaster of a high school covered up a sexual relationship between one of his teachers and a learner;

(2) further notes that the Gauteng department of education will immediately charge the headmaster with negligence and re-open the case against the teacher; and

(3) commends the department for embarking on these bold initiatives and calls on teachers, learners and parents to report cases of sexual misconduct in places of learning.

Mr A Z A VAN JAARSVELD: Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move:

That the House -

(1) notes the strong division on policy between Cosatu and the Government in the light of the following -

   (a)  that Cosatu is once again threatening to revert to mass action
       if their demands on privatisation are not met; and


   (b)  that Cosatu has announced that it has severed all relations with
       the Department of Public Enterprises, and has referred its
       demands to senior political leadership in the alliance; and

(2) urges the Government to publicly reprimand its alliance partner, Cosatu, for its wayward behaviour, as its continuous balking and threats of holding the country to ransom do nothing for investor confidence and job creation in South Africa.

Mr D G MKONO: Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the UDM:

That the House -

(1) expresses its shock and concern at the series of attacks on elderly people in the Bityi district of the Eastern Cape;

(2) notes with dismay that these attacks occurred shortly after the elderly received their pensions;

(3) extends its condolences to the families of the five pensioners who were killed recently, as well as the four who are now recovering in hospital; and

(4) calls on the Government to immediately launch an investigation to arrest the murderers and ensure the safety of the community.

Ms F HAJAIG: Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the ANC:

That the House -

(1) notes that the Minister of Safety and Security, the hon Steve Tshwete, has announced the lifting of the moratorium on the publishing of crime statistics;

(2) further notes that police have taken steps to ensure the reliability and credibility of statistics to assist them in carrying out their responsibilities; and

(3) welcomes the lifting of the moratorium by Minister Steve Tshwete.

Dr M S MOGOBA: Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the PAC:

That the House -

(1) notes that Butterworth, once the throbbing industrial border town of the Eastern Cape, is now a pale shadow of its former self with dirty streets strewn with airborne litter and occasionally sewerage, and with an unreliable electricity and water supply;

(2) notes that as a consequence, the industries seem to have ground to a standstill and unemployment is at a very high and alarming level, with hope and peace being inversely at a very low level; and

(3) therefore calls on the Government to respond to the Macedonian call for help from the people by reviving and renewing this town together with others of the same ilk such as Umtata, Mount Frere, Dimbaza and Idutywa, which can become showpieces to tourists travelling on the N2 national road and positively influence the flow of foreign investment to our country and help kick-start much needed job creation.

Dr C P MULDER: Mnr die Voorsitter, ek gee hiermee kennis dat ek op die volgende sittingsdag namens die VF sal voorstel:

Dat die Huis -

(1) kennis neem van die Helpende Hand Fonds wat gister deur die vakbond Solidariteit in Pretoria tydens ‘n geleentheid by die Laerskool Danville van stapel gestuur is; (2) voorts kennis neem dat die doel van hierdie fonds is om toe te sien dat geen kind honger ly nie, aangesien dit ‘n wesentlike probleem geword het as gevolg van die groter wordende probleem van werkloosheid;

(3) daarvan kennis neem dat ongeveer 1 miljoen werksgeleenthede gedurende die afgelope 10 jaar in die ekonomie verlore gegaan het, wat onderliggend is aan hierdie groter wordende krisis; en

(4) sy volle ondersteuning uitspreek vir hierdie projek van die vakbond Solidariteit en hulle alle sukses hiermee toewens. (Translation of Afrikaans notice of motion follows.)

[Dr C P MULDER: Mr Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day I shall move on behalf of the FF:

That the House -

(1) takes note of the Helpende Hand Fonds, launched yesterday by the Solidariteit trade union at a function at the Danville Primary School in Pretoria;

(2) further notes that it is the aim of this fund to make sure that no child goes hungry, as this has really become an issue owing to the growing problem of unemployment;

(3) notes that over the past 10 years approximately 1 million job opportunities have been lost in the economy, which is an underlying reason for this growing crisis; and

(4) expresses its full support for this project of the Solidariteit trade union, and wishes them every success in this regard.]

Mrs N R SHOPE: Mr Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the ANC:

That the House -

(1) notes that a 12-year-old boy, Stephen Swanskay, recounted his experiences as a child soldier at a conference co-hosted by the United Nations Children’s Fund and the Organisation for African Unity in Cairo; (2) believes that the use of children in wars constitutes a violation of the rights of the child and should be condemned; and

(3) calls on countries, governments and people throughout the world to join the campaign to stop the use of children as soldiers.

[Applause.]

Mr B G BELL: Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move:

That the House -

(1) notes that the ANC continues to have difficulty in the local government sphere and that instead of focusing its attention on the delivery of services to residents it carries on internal fights;

(2) further notes that in Middelburg, Mpumalanga, 16 ANC councillors walked out during a motion of no confidence in the mayor, despite being instructed by the ANC regional working committee not to do so; (3) recognises that 50% of the ANC councillors have no confidence in their mayor; and

(4) calls on the mayor to resign and let the people of Middelburg choose their own mayor.

[Interjections.]

Mr M F CASSIM: Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the ext sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the IFP:

That the House -

(1) congratulates African Flame of Knysna, a company that promotes and encourages new inventions, on the work that it is undertaking on behalf of the inventors of South Africa;

(2) welcomes the fact that this group receives and brings to fruition so many new ideas in our country, which is indicative of the fact that South Africans are an inventive group who, given the chance, would rise to great heights; (3) applauds the development of the drought buster, which is a borehole pump with great potential not only within agriculture in South Africa but also within the broader agriculture framework throughout the world, as one typical idea of what this company has done; and

(4) wishes to bring to the attention of this House the valuable work that has been done by African Flame and to encourage them in the interests of growth in South Africa.

Ms P K MOTHOAGAE: Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the ANC:

That the House -

(1) notes that one of the most prominent fighters of the Palestinian cause and an executive member of the Palestinian Liberation Organisation, Comrade Faisal Husseini, died of a heart attack while on a visit to Kuwait;

(2) further notes that Comrade Faisal devoted all his life to the liberation of the people of Palestine;

(3) expresses its heartfelt condolences to his family, comrades and friends; and

(4) joins the people of Palestine in mourning the death of this hero.

[Applause.]

Dr R T RHODA: Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move:

That the House -

(1) notes that -

   (a)  despite the release of thousands of prisoners in September and
       October last year, the number of inmates had increased to nearly
       the same point by February this year and prison overcrowding is
       still in a crisis; and


   (b)  the DA has warned the Department of Correctional Services on
       various occasions that the release of thousands of prisoners is
       only a short-term solution and, by the Department of
       Correctional Services' own admission, ``these interventions did
       not have a long-term effect on the prison population''; and

(2) urges the Department of Correctional Services to stop wasting time and to take proactive steps to resolve the crisis.

Mr S ABRAM: Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move:

That the House -

(1) notes the fact that the number of rail ``incidents’’ in South Africa has increased from 338 in 1999 to 545 in the course of last year;

(2) observes that an increase occurred in deaths in such ``incidents’’ from 53 to 62 in these two years;

(3) recognises that these ``incidents’’ can largely be attributed to poor or no maintenance of equipment and fencing; and

(4) calls upon the Minister of Transport to direct the SA Rail Commuter Corporation to focus attention on the upgrading of commuter rail safety.

Nkskz A N SIGCAWU: Mhlalingaphambili, ndenza isibhengezo sokuba kwindibano elandelayo yale Ndlu, ndiza kuphakamisa egameni likaKhongolose:

Ukuba le Ndlu -

(1) ivakalise amazwi ovelwano nosizi kwiintsapho nezizalwane zabantu abahlanu abasutywe kukufa kwingozi yebhasi eyehle ngaseJamestown eMpuma Koloni kwiveki edlulileyo; nokuba

(2) ikhumbuze uluntu ukuba lufanele ukuba lulumke ezindleleni yaye luthabathe inxaxheba kwiphulo i-Arrive Alive. (Translation of isiXhosa notice of motion follows.)

[Mrs A N SIGCAWU: Chairperson, I hereby give a notice that at the next sitting of the House, I will move on behalf of the ANC:

That the House -

(1) extends its condolences to the families and relatives of five people who lost their lives in a bus accident that occurred at Jamestown in the Eastern Cape last week; and

(2) reminds people that they should be careful on the road and take part in the Arrive Alive campaign.]

                    INTERNATIONAL CHILDREN'S DAY

                         (Draft Resolution)

Mr G Q M DOIDGE: Chairperson, I move without notice:

That the House -

(1) notes that today is International Children’s Day;

(2) further notes that the Government has embarked on programmes to ensure the rights and protection of children;

(3) recognises that poverty, abuse and illiteracy play a destabilising role in children’s lives and they are mostly unable to deal with such problems;

(4) calls on the people of South Africa to “Hear the Children’s Voices” and to do everything to ensure that no child ever suffers at the hands of adults; and

(5) wishes all children in the public gallery a happy Children’s Day, also in their programme outside Parliament today.

Agreed to.

                       DEATH OF NKOSI JOHNSON

                         (Draft Resolution)

Mr G Q M DOIDGE: Chairperson, I move without notice: That the House -

(1) notes with regret and sadness the passing away of Nkosi Johnson;

(2) commends him for his brave life and for all he did for Aids awareness;

(3) acknowledges that he will be missed by the whole nation; and

(4) extends its sincere condolences to his family and friends.

Agreed to.

                     JUDICIAL SERVICE COMMISSION

                         (Draft Resolution)

Mr G Q M DOIDGE: Chairperson, I move the draft resolution printed on the Order Paper in the name of the Chief Whip of the Majority Party, as follows:

That the House designates Ms F I Chohan-Khota to serve on the Judicial Service Commission in terms of section 178(1)(h) of the Constitution, 1996, to replace Minister A M Omar who resigned from the Commission on 26 February 2001.

Agreed to.

                         APPROPRIATION BILL

Debate on Vote No 8 - Public Enterprises:

The MINISTER FOR PUBLIC ENTERPRISES: Mr Chairperson, hon members, guests, before I speak on my Vote, I also want to join the Deputy Chief Whip of the Majority Party in expressing my condolences on the passing away of Nkosi Johnson. May his soul rest in peace.

One of South Africa’s biggest challenges is to attain sustainable economic growth and development. We have achieved, as South Africa, macroeconomic stability through a variety of economic, fiscal and monetary policies and initiatives, but we have not yet achieved the growth rates required for sustainable development. Current indicators aside, it is clear that we need a range of initiatives to take our GDP growth beyond 3% per annum.

Hon members, let me address a number of issues head-on, and hopefully clear the air once and for all about Government’s definition of its mandate and our approach to its implementation. Thereafter I will provide hon members with factual evidence of our work and of the immediate practical plans we have for the accelerated agenda we have in place.

First of all, let us agree on the terms and words we use to describe what it is we are about. ``Restructuring’’ is the generic term we use to describe the basket of strategies we use to ensure that public enterprises in South Africa are efficient, effective and powerful engines of socioeconomic development. That basket includes initiatives that have specific characteristics. There are concessions that involve ways of outsourcing management, maintenance or the general functions of entities over specified time periods. There is the consolidation of common activities across public enterprises. And there are privatisation initiatives that cover various mixes of equity share arrangements and the wholesale disposal of assets.

These changes to the institutional environment of state-owned enterprises are, in turn, underpinned by the negotiation of shareholder compacts that clearly delineate the respective relationships between each entity’s executive management, its board of directors and Government as the shareholder; transformation within each entity and adjustments to the procurement and acquisition policies and practices of the state- owned enterprises; and social plan agreements between each entity and labour. Shareholder compacts will be reassessed when outside bodies require equity. The transformation and procurement adjustments are designed to promote economic empowerment, whilst the social plans are designed to accommodate the risks workers are likely to face if they are retrenched or undergo retraining or reskilling programmes.

In today’s circumstances, with widespread poverty and poor infrastructure still holding us back, it would be highly irresponsible for the current Government to engage in a fire sale of state assets. This is particularly the case at a time when institutions like the IMF and the World Bank, international advisers and others, have assessed development since the 1980s in Africa in particular, and in the 1990s in former Eastern Europe as well and found the results wanting.

Our policy framework titled ``An Accelerated Agenda Towards the Restructuring of State-Owned Enterprises’’ is located within this conceptual framework. That there must be transition is not at issue. The pace of that transition is critical. That it will cause deep and probably irreversible changes in the nature of the modern state and its relationship to economic participation is also not in doubt. That is what societies always do. They change, they reorganise and they develop.

However, we have the choice to direct those changes. We are not victims or prisoners of globalisation. We are, in fact, active participants in a new world. That is the challenge that we face, and we intend being at the forefront of those changes so that we are not left stranded at the high- water mark when the tide of opportunity has ebbed.

As the South African Government we have recognised the unambiguous need for the state to play a developmental role in South Africa to deal with the legacies of apartheid: widespread poverty and unemployment. State-owned enterprises in our country represent a massive financial investment in labour technology and infrastructure resources. Our restructuring aims to maximise the contribution that these state assets can make to development through the integration of public, private and social capital and expertise.

These enterprises will play a critical role in our endeavour to enhance our manufacturing competitiveness. They dominate the energy, transport and telecommunications sectors. All these sectors are responsible for a significant percentage of input costs to potential high-growth industries like tourism, manufacturing, agriculture and other export-related industries.

By ensuring that our input sectors are efficient and offer high-quality services we can lower the cost and improve the services that they offer to high-potential growth industries. In addition, some of the state enterprises also operate in high-growth sectors like telecommunications and information technology.

It is perhaps of interest to the House that our approach to managed liberalisation, the adoption of sound corporate governance, strategies for domestic empowerment through partnership and joint ventures, and a concrete social plan, has met with considerable interest wherever we have had the opportunity to discuss our policy with other governments in Africa in particular. For example, one element of the Algeria-South Africa binational commission is an agreement to provide assistance in the form of training, management expertise and a constant comparison of experiences in the arena of state enterprise reform.

So, too, our views, expressed through Eskom Enterprises projects in Uganda, have met with the approval of the World Bank as viable alternatives in those particular countries. This is particularly interesting in the light of the disaster of the shock therapy approach in the Senegalese energy sector. Of critical importance is the recognition that the dramatic approach only seems to work in those economies that have sufficient institutional and financial reserves, tradition and capacity to absorb the shock. Otherwise they crumble, with massive social implications and destruction of the type we have seen particularly in parts of central Europe and particularly Russia.

I will now focus on the progress that has been made in the implementation of our agenda for the restructuring of state-owned enterprises. At the beginning of 2000 my department circulated a business plan, indicating a programme of the various restructuring initiatives to be undertaken over the next three years. I am happy to report that the department has exceeded the interim projected milestones that were set for the year under review in all major sectors.

Eskom is one of most efficient and lowest-cost producers of energy in the whole world, and our low cost of energy and the reliability of the supply by Eskom has enabled us to attract large energy-intensive manufacturing plants to South Africa. Eskom also plays a very critical developmental role in ensuring that energy is accessible to the majority of the citizens of this country.

The introduction of competition in the energy-generating sector will serve as a catalyst for further efficiency gains, which ultimately will pass through to the consumers. Another factor worthy of note is that Eskom’s expertise primarily focuses on coal-fired generators. Should Eskom aspire to be a global power generator, it will have to develop further expertise in hydro-power and power generation from gas.

Our Government favours a competitive generating model with Eskom retaining a dominant domestic generating capability after restructuring. On the basis of our current growth trajectory, additional power will be required in the year 2007, a situation that provides an ideal opportunity to introduce new power producers into the South African energy generation market around

1. Eskom’s investment in generation assets beyond our borders would accompany a reduction of Eskom’s domestic generation capability. This three- pronged strategy is sufficient to stimulate competition in generation domestically, whilst not undermining Eskom’s vision to be a global energy utility of stature.

During the public hearings on the Eskom Conversion Bill, concerns were expressed from certain quarters that the restructuring of Eskom would seriously compromise Eskom’s developmental role. This argument presupposes that we intend following an irresponsible trajectory for the restructuring of Eskom. This is clearly incorrect, and I wish to assure the South African public that central to our plans for Eskom is the great need for it to continue to fulfil its developmental role in South Africa and beyond.

On transport, the promulgation of the Transnet Pension Fund Amendment Act on 1 November last year has helped kill the albatross of debt that has held back Transnet’s effective restructuring. A revised actuarial valuation of the pension fund and equity bond swap with the Public Investment Commissioners has enabled Transnet to retire R7,4 billion of T11 bonds. These T11 bonds were acquired under unfavourable conditions and were accompanied by covenants that meant, in practice, that whilst the state owned Transnet on paper, any significant transformation or restructuring initiatives required the bondholders’ approval. Besides that, interest payments on these bonds were approximately R1,5 billion per annum, which placed severe constraints on Transnet’s ability to recapitalise its business.

The retirement, therefore, of the T11 Bonds paves the way for increased infrastructural investments by Transnet, as well as an improvement of its debt equity ratio from 74% to 54% to bring it into line with its global peers. We have also normalised the benefits that accrue to both black and white pensioners and especially the widows of black employees.

To those detractors who have expressed concerns about the slow pace of Transnet’s restructuring, our response is that we have adequately demonstrated our resolve to restructure Transnet by concluding a highly complex transaction in exactly nine months. The resolution of this pension fund problem also enables us to restructure the various business units in Transnet, without the complex debt burden sharing exercise that was adopted when SA Airways was initially brought into restructuring.

Internal transformation at Spoornet is well under way. A team of rail specialists was brought in to assist the new management team in identifying the most efficient mode of internal operations, and we are already seeing the benefits of this internal efficiency exercise. Our Government accepts the state’s participation in the general freight business and the mainline passenger services. We are aware, of course, of employment issues in Spoornet and we are currently in discussion with organised labour and management to accommodate the concerns of everyone.

Our port systems represent a critical component in our endeavour to enhance our industrial competitiveness. Historically, our wharfage charges and general port inefficiencies have resulted in a reduced traffic of freight through our ports, thereby inhibiting the development of back-of-port manufacturing sectors and logistics entities. We have therefore embarked on a multipronged strategy, to make sure that our ports contribute to this competitiveness.

Portnet will be corporatised into separate port authority and port operations components. This separation and the respective roles and functions will be clearly defined in the ports policy to be released shortly by the Department of Transport. In the interim, we have already commenced with the various financial and legal exercises aimed at the separate incorporations. A new and more competitive tariff regime will be unveiled in the fourth quarter of this year, to ensure that our rates are on a par with those of our competitors around the world. The concessioning of some of the port operations to the private sector will also begin in the new year.

The turnaround of SA Airways is under way. Considerable progress has been made in improving the financial situation at SAA, and fleet modernisation remains a critical challenge to the airline. We are looking closely at the strategic line that SAA’s management is taking, given the concerns that have been raised about the sustainability of some of the decisions taken, before the change in leadership at SA Airways.

As the House is aware, the SA Air Group has opted to retain its 20% shareholding in SA Airways, despite the financial woes that it finds itself in at the present moment. This is clearly a vote of confidence in SAA and the South African economy in general. At this stage, we are planning to prepare SAA for an IPO in 2002.

Let me refer members to the statement that I released yesterday, concerning Mr Coleman Andrews. I am waiting for a final report on the issue from Transnet, and further action will be determined then. However, I want to say that corporate governance issues are central to this question, and I am not going to pre-empt any of the deliberations.

The Telkom IPO represents the first primary placement by Government on the Johannesburg Stock Exchange, and will be the single largest telecoms listing domestically. We have made significant progress on this IPO project. Legislative certainty, via amendments to the Telecommunications Act, will be tabled by the Department of Communications in June. June starts today.

We have also been advised by Icasa that appropriate regulations will follow shortly thereafter. Considerable work has been done at company level to prepare for this listing and negotiations are also well advanced with Thintana, which is Telkom’s strategic equity partner. We are constantly monitoring the performance of telecommunications stocks globally.

In April of this year the Government also disposed of 3% of Telkom to a black economic grouping, Ucingo, for nearly R565 million after a competitive bidding process. We are also in the process of defining the most appropriate manner of offering Eskom’s and Transnet’s telecommunications infrastructure for utilisation by the second national operator.

Eskom and Transtel bring substantial benefits to the SNO, including their unrivalled infrastructure reach, access to customers and distribution channels. Our decision to bring these SOE capabilities to the SNO is based not on some ideological indulgence on our part, but rather on sound business principles that will ensure a reduction in cost in terms of both infrastructure and time for the SNO and to roll out appropriate infrastructure in order to compete effectively with Telkom within the shortest possible time.

South Africa’s defence-related industries operate within a context of increasing global consolidation. Denel is a repository of cutting-edge technology and intellectual capital that has been demonstrated by the global acclaim that some of its products have received. To retain this critical skills base and to grow Denel as a business, we have secured a greater penetration of global markets. Thus we are finalising a partnering relationship with BAE systems at a Denel Aerospace level and other partnerships at a business unit level, such as the partnering of Denel Airmotive with Turbomeca Snecma.

All these partnerships are scheduled for finalisation in August of this year. Not only are they intended to provide us with greater access to global markets, but they are also constructed to ensure that our partners establish some of their production lines domestically, thereby enhancing the local job creation potential of this sector.

After a lengthy and complex exercise that involved the integration of the Department of Water Affairs and Forestry and Safcol forests, the accommodation of community interests and the protection of environmentally sensitive areas, we are happy to advise that the KwaZulu-Natal package of Safcol has been finalised for disposal to the Siyaqubuka Consortium for R100 million. The contracts and sale agreements were signed on 22 May 2001, and our ability to reach finality on the KwaZulu-Natal package and the experience gained from this complex exercise has enabled us to rapidly move forward with the sale process of the other packages, including the Northern Province and Mpumalanga package.

Lest we forget, part of our mandate is to act as the responsible shareholder of the entities that we have an interest in. Our Government and my department are totally committed to the advocacy, promotion, implementation and development of the culture of sound corporate governance within state-owned enterprises. To demonstrate this commitment, we have developed mechanisms that are geared towards an improved corporate governance environment within state enterprises.

The shareholder compacts, for example, ascertain the degree of independence of state enterprises within their clearly defined mandates, accounting and reporting in line with the PFMA, corporate governance issues that relate to the remuneration of board members, the disclosure of remuneration to executives, and so on. Further, as a department, we are participants in the King Commission, and have endeavoured to ensure that our state-owned enterprises subscribe to the values that are expected of responsible corporate citizens of South Africa. At a recent corporate governance conference in Nairobi, Kenya, attended by representatives from both the developing and developed world, the South African Government was recognised as a leading global exponent in the promotion of the sound corporate governance of state-owned enterprises.

I have outlined a programme that amounts to nothing less than a radical shake-up of the state-owned enterprises environment in South Africa. We believe that it contains fundamental elements that will assist in driving our economy to sustainable growth and development. At the same time, I am also conscious of the insecurity, doubts and fears that exist in the breasts of many of our workers and managers in state enterprises. The welfare consequences of restructuring are uppermost in Government’s mind, which is why we have reaffirmed the national framework agreement with labour, and have ensured that management signs off on the agreement as well. It is also the basis for the development of social security safety nets to provide assistance to those who will be retrenched as a result of restructuring initiatives.

We are in agreement with the leadership of the trade unions, and this point is consistently assessed at all our engagements: There will be job losses in some cases, but it is our solemn undertaking that these must be kept to a minimum and that every effort must be made to ensure that people are not left in the desert of unemployment. We believe that any initial pain will be relieved by the concrete benefits that will flow from the investment we make in this restructuring effort.

I specifically want to say to all workers in state-owned enterprises and their dependants that …

… sifuna ukubanikeza isiqiniseko sokuthi uHulumeni wabo uziqondisisa kahle izidingo zabantu. UMnyango wami uphezu komkhankaso wokuhlela kabusha izimboni zikaHulumeni ukuze kudaleke amathuba emisebenzi futhi kusimame nomnotho wezwe lethu. Phezu kwalokhu, uMnyango wami ubheke ukuthi wenze konke okusemandleni ukulandela izinhlelo ezibekwe uHulumeni wabo kanye namaqhinga okugwema ukuhlukumezeka kwabasebenzi, imindeni yabo kanye nemiphakathi abayakhele ngaphansi kohlelo olubizwa ngokuthi i-Social Plan. [Ihlombe.]

Sihlezi sibonisana nabaholi bezinyunyana ngokwezimiso zohlaka lwe-NFA ngezindaba ezithintana nokuhlelwa kabusha kwezimboni zikaHulumeni. Nakuba kuke kwenzeke singaboni ngaso linye ngaso sonke isikhathi, kodwa okubalulekile nokumele singakukhohlwa neze ukuthi uHulumeni wabo uyohlala njalo usebenzela ukufeza izinhloso nezidingo zabahlwempu nabantulayo, kanjalo nokwakha isisekelo sempilo esimeme nekusasa eliqhakazile labantwana bethu. [Ihlombe.] (Translation of Zulu paragraphs follows.)

[… we want to give them the assurance that their Government is aware of their problems. My department is presently restructuring Government enterprises in order to create jobs and improve the economy in our country. In addition to this, my department is expected to try all possible means to follow the programmes set up by the Government and the plans to avoid the exploitation of employees, their families and their communities. This plan is known as the Social Plan. [Applause.]

We are negotiating with trade unions regarding the structure of the NFA in relation to the issues that are affecting the restructuring of Government enterprises. Although sometimes we differ, what is important and should not be forgotten is that their Government will always work to meet the needs of the poor. It will always build a foundation of health, for the future of our children. [Applause.]]

Our Government has defined the development of our economy as its major task. State-owned enterprises have a vital role to play in the development of the South African economy. In certain instances, as I have outlined, state-owned enterprises dominate the sectors of the economy in which they operate. Their efficiency and performance is therefore closely related to the country’s economic performance.

Solid and profitable relations with domestic and international investors drawn from the private sector can only be built within the context of a clear regulatory framework, increased competition, accountability and transparency. We believe that our policy framework has provided the investor community, state-owned enterprises and stakeholders with a clear and transparent vision and a set of procedures against which the whole process can be monitored, judged and evaluated.

Our performance over the past year in implementing our policy, clearly demonstrates our commitment to ensuring that the restructuring of state- owned enterprises is done responsibly and to the benefit of all South Africans. [Applause.]

Mr R J HEINE: Chairperson, hon Minister, and hon members, I was tempted to raise the Coleman Andrews issue, but my colleague will refer to it.

I think that I need to support the Minister on the privatisation issue and address the concerns of Cosatu, who were again threatening to strike because they threw their toys out of the cot. Privatisation of state liabilities and assets, recognised as a critical element in increasing the efficiency and reducing the cost of government, is a worldwide phenomenon. A World Bank study of 61 privatisations in 18 countries showed that, on average, the efficiency of these companies had risen by 11% and that they had taken on 6% more employees.

In developing countries, increases in net employment levels have been more impressive. In developed countries, privatised utilities are likely to see profit by cutting labour costs, but in poorer countries the pursuit of profit usually creates more jobs. This is because newly privatised utilities in underserviced areas increase their profits by extending their services. In Peru, for example, telecoms privatisation created more than 11 000 new jobs in the sector. That is for Mr Cronin’s information.

In South Africa, organised labour continues to resist attempts to privatise state enterprises and municipal facilities. Unions fear that privatisation will result in job losses and deteriorating service provision. In Nelspruit, for instance, the SA Municipal Workers Union has fought utility privatisation every step of the way, despite employment guarantees built into the privatisation contract. However, without privatisation, most of the 250 000 people in the Nelspruit area could not expect to receive clean water at all. As ANC spokesman, Jackson Mthembu put it in 1998, and I quote:

Government does not have the money to provide for the needs of all our people. Privatisation is in the interests of all our people who need water.

Where a particular privatisation is likely to result in job losses, the DA proposes that part of the proceeds should be set aside for retraining employees of the enterprise concerned.

Major privatisations really have to happen this year. This is the single most important signal that international investors want to see. Obviously, there is resistance from organised labour and the SACP because they pursue an outdated ideology that is long dead and buried. The irony is that they are partners of the Government that have to deliver to the people of South Africa.

The Government would find privatisation an easier sell if they engaged in a serious campaign of public education on this issue. Everyone knows that privatisations are good for businesses and useful in reducing government debt, but it is less widely understood that large-scale privatisation of state monopolies would be better for poor South Africans too.

Privatisations are accompanied by a significant capital formation that spreads a lot of benefits very broadly throughout society. When privatisations introduce competition into a sector, as they should be designed to do, they always improve service for all customers.

The aim should be to produce R30 billion per year for the next four years from the sale of state enterprises, and not R18 billion only, as envisaged for 2001. South Africa is not getting its fair share of foreign investment. There is an enormous market for privatisation in South Africa, with the scope for privatisation in empowerment processes as well. The pressure is on this Ministry to adopt a firmer stance in 2001. Not only does the Government stand to lose credibility if the process is delayed any further, but the country also risks not attracting foreign investors, as more state assets come up for grabs internationally.

Referring to the credibility of our country, members of the opposition often have to listen to ANC speakers blaming opposition and business for bad-mouthing our country overseas, with Mr Tony Leon, the leader of the DA, being the main target. Let us put the record straight. A recent article appeared in one of our newspapers with the headline: ``Country’s image: it is tarnished by rumours of impropriety.’’ The article went on to say that corrupt officials must be dealt with. Notwithstanding Mr Mandela’s undertaking when he became President that they will be punished, there is yet to be a high-profile prosecution of any civil servant or political figure alleged to be involved in corruption.

Referring to the country’s arms deal, the writer made the following point, and I quote:

Even more damaging was the revelation this week that Mr Tony Yengeni was one of about 30 people to have received special deals on Mercedes-Benz vehicles from the arms company involved in the country’s R43 billion arms deal. While public prosecutor Mr Bulelani Ngcuka’s assurances that prosecutions are likely to follow is encouraging, in the meantime, let us see some real political leadership, starting with the immediate suspension, with full pay, of those implicated in this skulduggery.

[Interjections.]

The article was written by Mr Kaizer Nyatsumba, an associate editor of The Independent in London. That is what he had to say about this Government - not a white racist or opposition person. [Interjections.] I therefore urge Government to stop blaming everybody else and to get their own house in order and prove to the world that they are able to govern, so that faith and confidence are restored in our country. [Interjections.]

Mr I Z NCINANE: Chairperson, is the hon member prepared to take a question?

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! Are you prepared to answer a question, hon member?

Mr R J HEINE: We can have a question when we have lunch with Public Enterprises. [Interjections.] [Laughter.]

Mr I Z NCINANE: Then he is out of order. [Interjections.]

Mr S T BELOT: Chairperson, members, Mr Minister, this budget marks yet another milestone by Public Enterprises in their restructuring programme for the transformation of our country.

Before I proceed, I think it is necessary to draw a distinction between Government and the DA. The DA speaker here, my colleague Mr Heine, speaks about privatisation. We in the Portfolio Committee on Public Enterprises play our oversight role, informed by the Governments restructuring programme.

The Minister has just explained in his speech here that we are in the process of restructuring. I need to correct the impression created by the DA here that privatisation is synonymous with restructuring. The Minister has explained this. Restructuring embodies, or entails a number of things. To stay with one word, ``privatisation’’, is to deliberately move away from the agenda that this country has set itself.

As we consider the budget for the Department of Public Enterprises for 2001- 02, I wish to place on record that the portfolio committee, in interrogating the budget, is satisfied with the performance of the department. The portfolio committee, after scrutinising all the programmes of the department and the allocated public funds, gave a clean bill of health to the Department of Public Enterprises.

On behalf of the committee, therefore, I wish to congratulate the Minister and the department on the satisfactory and prudent manner in which they handled and accounted for the allocated funds to their department. I wish to emphasise that the budget of this department is a modest allocation for four programmes which intend to transform, and make a contribution to, the betterment of the lives of our people.

We need to look at the amount allocated to the department and recognise and see the distinction, the difference, between the budget and accounting procedures of the department and those of state-owned enterprises. The tendency here, as one will hear later, is to lump together the accounting procedures of the department and those of the state-owned enterprises. There are different processes and procedures outlined in what my colleagues will be dealing with under co-operative governance.

The Portfolio Committee has noted that during the past seven years the Government has made huge strides in transforming South Africa’s macroeconomic environment, as evidenced by a resumption of growth, a sharp decline in inflation and indebtedness, and increasing domestic and foreign direct investment. The ANC continues to be informed by a perspective that says: Economics is about people, their work, their ownership of productive assets, or lack of it, their share of what they produce and what they buy and sell, their accommodation and recreation. In fact, every element which we describe as ``quality of life’’ flows from the structure and management of the economy. Through our interaction with the department and the various state-owned enterprises, we are satisfied that the approach that puts people at the centre of economic transformation remains a guiding principle in this department, and we need to commend the department for that.

The restructuring of state-owned enterprises is an integral part of the ANC’s programme for transforming the economy. The critical objectives informing this process are as follows, to remind hon members: enhancing sustainable growth and development, employment creation, the development of social and economic infrastructure as part of the strategy to overcome poverty, which is so prevalent among the majority of South African communities, and promoting the development of our human resources. The restructuring programme, as pursued by this department, is precisely following these objectives and, in its oversight role, the portfolio committee is, once more, satisfied that the department is pursuing these objectives unwaveringly.

As we have noted, however, many challenges remain in the struggle to achieve these goals. Successes achieved in the macroeconomic arena must be reinforced in the microeconomic arena. In particular, the contribution of the state-owned enterprises to the economy’s development trajectory requires critical scrutiny, if such enterprises are to contribute to, rather than hinder, the objective of ensuring a better life for all. In this context, therefore, we should emphasise the need to locate restructuring within a broader industry’s sectoral policy.

At the macroeconomic level, there are a number of positive impacts that have been derived from the restructuring of state enterprises. The most obvious is the impact on the fiscus. Where it is deemed appropriate, I must say, in terms of strategic considerations, the full or partial divestiture of state-owned enterprises will lower Government debt through the proceeds accruing to it, through trade and sale, concession or initial public offerings. This will serve to lower the cost of capital throughout the economy and increase domestic investment. Therefore, I wish, once more, to call upon my colleagues to take care, when we use these words, to use them to convey the correct agenda of the Government.

While these macroeconomic benefits are desirable, it is the macroeconomic transformation of state-owned enterprises that will have a direct impact on the sustainable development of the economy. In addressing the challenges facing state-owned enterprises, Government is guided by the perspective that seeks to ensure that we strengthen the ability of the economy to respond to the massive inequalities in the country, to relieve the material hardship of the majority and to stimulate economic growth and competitiveness.

Furthermore, in the context of limited state resources, Government has to decide where state interventions will be most effective in improving the quality of life of every South African citizen. In some instances, we have to strengthen the involvement of the state in the economy. This we have seen happening with the department establishing arivia.com. Here we need to acknowledge with appreciation that it is not only privatisation where it is necessary, or nationalisation if one wishes to call it that, because Government has a responsibility to carry out.

A case-by-case analysis of the specific enterprises we seek to transform should be undertaken and is being undertaken in order to ensure informed choices that benefit the majority and should be supported by all. We are satisfied, therefore, that Government is committed to the managed liberalisation of the economy as against the expected ``big bang’’ mindless approach of privatisation, as advocated by those who are opponents of social transformation.

Here we need to strike a balance. The gradual introduction and management of any liberalisation efforts are necessary to test the benefits of private- sector involvement in hitherto state-owned entities and to give Government sufficient time to develop policy and regulatory frameworks that enable it to maintain strategic control over key economic sectors. Most importantly, it is aimed at ensuring that Government’s development agenda is realised in this process.

The transfer of state-owned enterprises should not be an end in itself. The objective should be to enhance the efficiency of key infrastructures and lower the cost of providing this service. This is precisely what the department is doing. This we observed as we monitored the work of the department. Because Government’s activities are dispersed across a range of social and economic sectors, the focus, management and expertise and technology transfer that global players bring to the economic infrastructure, such as transport, telecommunications and energy, can greatly enhance the efficiency with which these services are provided, and, once more, this should be welcomed.

The path chosen by Government recognises that the financial and operational performance of SOEs should be improved if this country is to achieve the levels of economic growth necessary to redress the poverty and suffering experienced by millions of our people. The impact on investment and employment will be significant as a consequence of this effort. Steps taken by the department to turn around state-owned companies such as Alexkor, Aventura, Spoornet and Transnet are critical in achieving these goals. As a portfolio committee we recognise this with appreciation.

We are conscious of and sensitive to the fact that achieving efficiencies might result in job losses, as the Minister has said. This is because the legacy of the apartheid era, which this Government has to contend with, is that SOEs were utilised as employers of last resort, which has resulted in a bloated labour force. Government is trying to deal with that. The portfolio committee led by the ANC supports this Vote. [Time expired.] [Applause.]

Nk P N MNANDI: Sihlalo, boNgqongqoshe, malungu ahloniphekile, maqabane nezihlobo, ngesikhathi sikahulumeni wobandlululo, izimboni ezingaphansi kukahulumeni zazisetshenziswa njengezikhali zokulwa nathi - thina-ke esasilwa nobandlululo. Ezinye zalezi zimboni zazakha izikhali eziyingozi kakhulu zokulwa nokubulala abantu ababelwela inkululeko yaleli zwe.

Singaxola kodwa kumele singakhohlwa lapho esiphuma khona. Ngonyaka ka-1994 ngenkathi uHulumeni oholwa uKhongolose ephatha leli zwe, wabhekana nenselele enkulu yokuthi makube khona uguquko kulezi zimboni ukuze zisebenzele umphakathi wonkana waseMzansi Afrika ngokulinganayo. Ngaphandle kokuthandabuza simi la namhlanje ngokukhulu ukuziqhenya ngezinguquko esezenziwe uHulumeni wabantu.

Inkulumo yami namhlanje imaqondana no-Eskom. Okokuqala okumele sikuphawule izinguquko esezenzekile phakathi kuka-Eskom eziphathelene neziphathimandla zale mboni. UHulumeni wabantu uthathe le mboni imhlophe qwa. Babumbalwa kakhulu ubuso obumnyama. Izindawo zethu thina bantu abamnyama zazimnyama njengathi, ekhona u-Eskom. Ugesi kwakungabakhwekazi. [Uhleko.]

Kusobala ukuthi ondlebe zikhanya ilanga babesebenzisa le mboni ukugimbela kwesabo. Babengayikhathalele intuthuko yoquqaba. Namhlanje siyabonga kuBhungane nakuzakwabo athathe kuyena, ngisho uNgqongqoshe uSigcau. U-Eskom uqhakazile, waqhakazisisa. [Ihlombe.] Ezindaweni eziningi zasemakhaya ugesi usufinyelele. Njengoba nathi nje sizibonela lapha eNdlini namhlanje ukuthi kwa-Eskom sekuphethe ezimnyama ngenkani. [Ihlombe]. Imbokodo nayo ilibambile iqhaza elibonakalayo esigqokweni. Ngithi halala kuGcabashe nethimba lakhe!

Kubalulekile ukuthi siyibeke indima neqhaza elibanjwe u-Eskom ekuletheni impilo engcono kubantu bakithi, ikakhulukazi kwabampofu nabasemakhaya. Uma kuqhathaniswa izimboni zonke zomhlaba ezikhiqiza ugesi, u-Eskom nguyena yedwa okhiqiza ugesi wenani eliphansi emhlabeni wonke jikelele. Phezu kwalokho uphindile wehlisa intengo kagesi ngama-15% ukuze abantu abampofu bakwazi ukuthenga ugesi.

Sikhuluma nje namhlanje u-Eskom usekwazile ukufaka ugesi ezindlini zasemakhaya. Ngikhuluma ngezindawo zasemakhaya kuphela, ezindlini ezingaphezu kwezigidi ezingu 1,3. Ezindlini okuhlala khona abasebenzi basemapulazini, u-Eskom usekwazile ukufaka ugesi ongangezinkulungwane ezingama-33. Nakuba sinyukile isibalo sokufakwa kukagesi ngesivinini, asiphiki, usemkhulu umsebenzi okudingeka wenziwe. Kufanele abantu bakithi nathi sazi kahle kamhlophe ukuthi angeke sikwazi ukuthi ngeminyakana eyisikhombisa nje kuphela, siqede wonke lo monakalo owenziwa eminyakeni eyevile emakhulwini amathathu kusukela mhlazane kufika u-Jan van Riebeeck kwelengabadi. [Ihlombe].

Ngaphandle kokubhekana nale nselele abhekene nayo u-Eskom la ekhaya, u- Eskom ube ngesinye sezigayigayi ezibe ingqalabutho ekuxhaseni umkhankaso kaMongameli wethu wokuthuthukisa izwekazi lase-Afrika lonkana. Sikhuluma nje uphiko olubizwa nge-Eskom Enterprises seluhambe lwafinyelela ko- Tripoli, kwesika-Kabila, ko-Algeria, eTanzania naseZambia. Emaphandleni ase- Uganda kuyakhanya bha ngenxa yalo Eskom. [Ihlombe].

Angibonge kuBhungane ngendlela yena noMnyango wakhe abasukumela ngayo phezulu uma kunezinkinga emiphakathini esisebenzela kuyona. Ngifisa ukubonga egameni lomphakathi wasesiBhasha naseNgagane eNyukhasela, KwaZulu- Natali, lapho abantu babambisana noMnyango kaBhungane no-Eskom ekusombululeni izingqinamba ababebhekene nazo. Ngiyabonga futhi nokuthi uBhungane wathumela izigayigayi zakhe zazifikela qathatha endaweni.

Lokhu uBhungane akwenza ezindaweni ezinjengo-Brits nakwaNongoma nakwezinye izindawo, kukubeka ngokusobala ukuthi uBhungane akakangenwa yilolu hlevane lokuphatha izwe ngomakhalekhukhwini. [Uhleko.] Le miphakathi engikhuluma ngayo isibeke ithemba layo kuBhungane mayelana nokuthi izidingo zayo zentuthuko, uMnyango wakhe uzoqhubeka nokuzibhekela ukuze kufakazeleke lokhu akushilo namhlanje ukuthi uma izimboni zikaHulumeni zihoxa ezindaweni ezithile - njengoba kwenzeka eNyukhasela - noma uma abantu bedilizwa, uMnyango wakhe uzoqhubeka nemizamo yokugwema ukuthi umphakathi othintekile usale dengwane. Ngithi makayibambe njalo uBhungane nezigayigayi zakhe - omiyane abancane.

Engifuna ukukusho futhi ngo-Eskom ukuthi, njengoba sazi ukuthi izwe lethu lihlaselwe kakhulu iNgculazi nomashayabhuqe, u-Eskom uye wayibeka induku ebandla ngokuthi afake imali engangezigidi ezingama-30 zamarandi ekulweni neNgculazi. Ngithi: Halala Eskom! Halala! [Ihlombe.]

AMALUNGU AHLONIPHEKILE: Halala!

USIHLALO WAMAKOMITI: Thulani! Kube mnandi kakhulu ukulalela ulimi oluhluzekile okade kukhulunywa ngalo lapha namhlanje. Kwangathi sonke singaluvuselela ukuze luphile ulimi lwethu. Ngiyabonga kakhulu. [Ihlombe].

Manje ngizobiza uMnu M D Msomi. Ngiyethemba ukuthi uzoluvuselela-ke naye. [Uhleko.] (Translation of Zulu speech follows.)

[Ms P N MNANDI: Chairperson, comrades, relatives, hon members and Ministers, during the apartheid era companies that were controlled by government were used as weapons to fight us, the freedom fighters. Some of these companies produced dangerous weapons to oppose and kill people who were fighting apartheid in this country.

We can forgive but we should not forget our past. In 1994, when the ANC-led Government came into power, it faced a big challenge to transform these companies so that they could serve the whole South African community in an equal manner. Without any hesitation, today we are here with pride because of the changes that have been made by the people’s Government.

My speech today is centred on Eskom. Firstly, we should acknowledge the changes that have occurred within Eskom, especially at the management level in this industry. The people’s Government inherited this industry when it was filled with white people only. There were very few black faces in this industry. Our areas, as blacks, were as dark as we are, even though there was Eskom. There was no electricity in our areas. [Laughter.]

It is clear that white people used this industry to help only themselves. They were not concerned about the improvement of the masses. Today we thank Bhungane and his colleague whom he succeeded, Minister Sigcau. Eskom is bright and really bright now. [Applause.] Electricity has been supplied to many rural areas. Even in this House today we can see for ourselves that black people now manage Eskom. [Applause]. There are also women in the top management. I say congratulations to Gcabashe and his team!

It is important to mention the role played by Eskom in improving the lives of our people, especially the rural poor people. If we compare the companies that produce electricity internationally, Eskom is the cheapest company in the world. In addition to that it again reduced the price of electricity by 15% so that even poor people can afford.

As we are talking today, Eskom has managed to supply more that 1,3 million households with electricity. I am talking about the rural areas only. In farm compounds, Eskom has supplied about 33 000 households with electricity.

Although the number of people who receive electricity has gone up, there is still a lot to be done. We should know very well that it is impossible to correct the mistake that was made 300 years ago within seven years. This mistake was made by the time Jan van Riebeeck arrived here. [Applause.]

In spite of the challenge that Eskom is facing here at home, it has been one of the powerful companies that has sponsored our President in his campaign to develop Africa. As we are talking here, Eskom Enterprises, which is one of the Eskom units, has now reached Tripoli, Kabila’s land, Algeria, Tanzania and Zambia. There is light in the rural areas of Uganda because of Eskom. [Applause.] I would like to thank Bhungane and his department for the manner in which they handled problems that cropped up in communities for which we are working. I would like to thank him in the name of Bhasha and Ngagane in Newcastle, KwaZulu-Natal, where people work together with Bhungane and Eskom in solving problems that they are facing. I also thank Bhungane for the fact that he sent his people who quickly went and attended to the problem.

What Bhungane did in areas like Brits in Nongoma and other places, shows clearly that he has not been affected by this disease of managing a country by cellular phones [Applause.] These communities that I am talking about have pinned their hopes on Bhungane regarding their need for development. His department will continue to look at people’s needs so as to prove right what is being said today, namely that if Government’s companies withdraw in some areas as happened in Newcastle or if people are retrenched, his department will continue with efforts to avoid a situation where people are left without any help. I would like to encourage Bhungane and his veterans, the small mosquitoes, to continue in this way.

Another thing that I want to say about Eskom is that as we all know, our country is affected by Aids, this horrific disease. Eskom has played a major role in donating R30 million to fight Aids. I say: ``Congratulations Eskom! Congratulations!’’ [Applause.]

HON MEMBERS: Congratulations!

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! It was wonderful to listen to a pure language that has being spoken here today. I wish that all of us could revive it so that it will stay alive. Thank you very much. [Applause.]

Now I am going to call on Mr M D Msomi. I hope he too will revive it. [Applause.]]

Mr M D MSOMI: Hon Chairperson, that is a challenge that I was not ready for, but I am going to surprise my colleagues and meet the challenge in the language of business.

More and more I become aware that the hon the President’s choice of the hon Jeff Radebe as Minister was a politically astute appointment. More than anyone else he is able to weather the storms and criticisms that are part and parcel of this department and come from literally every angle conceivable.

An amount of R129,62 million has been voted for the Department of Public Enterprises for the 2001-02 budget. This amount of R129,62 million is R92,49 million or 249,1% more than the R37, 132 million that the department received in the 2000-01 revised estimate. This is clearly indicative of a department that has come of age and is well resourced and fully fledged. The main reason for this increase is an increase of R84,12 million or 1 328,9% that programme 2, which is about the restructuring of state-owned enterprises, received in the 2000-01 budget. This programme received R6,33 million as opposed to R90,44 million in the 2000-02 budget.

Under the leadership of my colleague and friend the hon Belot, we have developed a single-minded pursuit of the strategic objectives of this department. The objectives of the Department of Public Enterprises are to develop and direct a coherent approach to the restructuring and transformation of state-owned enterprises, to ensure improved economic and social impact, to create and implement a restructuring framework for state- owned enterprises, to develop a method for monitoring the performance of state-owned enterprises and ensuring that their activities are aligned with Government policy, and to develop an approach that advocates alternative service delivery options as a means of transforming state-owned enterprises.

This department cuts across many other Ministries in its mandate of retaining the state-owned enterprises’ conception of what they are and what they can achieve, of restructuring the corporate body of each state-owned enterprise to bring it to a competitive level of performance, of revitalising each state-owned enterprise’s relationship to the competitive environment, of igniting growth in existing businesses and inventing new ones, of renewing individuals and state-owned enterprises, thus enabling them to become integral parts of a collected and responsible corporate body of a global community. The above objectives are to be met through the following four budget programmes, all of which received increases in their allocation for the 2001-02 budget.

An analysis done by the IFP clearly indicates that the Department of Public Enterprises has now found its feet and can direct the complex task of restructuring state-owned enterprises, thus paving the way for strategic investor initiatives. The administration received R25,9 million in 2000-01, but in 2001-02 it received R25,91 million. This is an increase of R820 000 or 3,2%. The restructuring of state-owned assets, as stated above, received R90,44 million in 2001-02 as compared to R6,33 million in 2000-01. This is an increase of R84,12 million or 1 328,9%. Performance monitoring and strategic analysis received R3,95 million in the 2000-01 budget, while, in the 2001-02 budget, it received R10,72 million. This is an increase of R6,77 million or 171,39%. Alternative service delivery received R1,75 million in 2000-01 as compared to the R2,53 million it received in 2001-02. This is an increase of R780 000 or 44,57%.

The aims of the administration’s programme are to provide leadership to staff and to create an enabling external and internal environment for the accelerated restructuring of state-owned enterprises. As noted above, this programme received R25, 9 million in the 2000-01 budget, while in 2000-02 it received R25,91 million, an increase of R820 000 or 3,2%. The corporate services subprogramme dominates the programme entirely. It received R8,75 million from the total of R25,91 million, or 33,89%. The aim of the restructuring programme is to develop and implement the accelerated restructuring programme to meet Government’s economic and social objectives.

As noted above, programme 2 has shown the biggest increase of all four programmes. It has increased by R84,12 million or 1 328,9% from the 2000-01 budget. This big increase is primarily due to the fact that there is R78,54 million allocated to the Initial Public Offering Office, which is a new initiative in the department. This office manages initial public offerings of state-owned enterprises that are to be listed on the Johannesburg Stock Exchange Securities Exchange, and other listings jurisdictions.

The restructural programme also received an increase of R2,63 million, from the R1,82 million of 2000-01 to R4,45 million in 2001-2002. This is again an increase of 144,5%. For years now, the IFP’s contribution has consistently offered an approach which represents a difference between the reflexive incremental responses to competitive threats and the proactive shaping and acceleration of corporate evolution. We believe that no individual therapy could be administered without considering the consequences upon the entire corporate body.

There are no miracle drugs that give simple, single therapy strong enough to induce complete health. That is why the IFP, from 1994 onwards, suggested a privatisation commission which would clear terms of reference, canvass widely with different stakeholders to look into the entire spectrum of state-owned enterprises, with a mandate to drive the process, and be accountable to Parliament.

The IFP supports this budget, because it proposes a holistic approach to all the state-owned enterprises, as reflected in this budget, though it does not represent 100% of the strategy that would have been preferred by the IFP. Our support of this budget is driven by the vision, which is wider in breadth and broader in scope, which will carry this country from hard disciplines of corporate re-engineering, systems integration and empowerment to soft disciplines such as the creation of shareholder value, team-building, individual renewal, activity-based costing and service level assessment, and the creation of a high-level value chain for each state- owned enterprise.

Let me digress for one moment and say a few words on empowerment. The IFP says very clearly that empowerment does not mean jobs for pals, or companies for pals. It does not mean the enrichment of a small black elite. What is the meaning of empowerment? Empowerment means combining the existing skills in capacity in our own state-owned enterprises with new talents, and developing them in harmony to the benefit of the community. One way in which this may be achieved in a visible manner will be to focus on the regional activities of all state-owned enterprises and harness them to the benefit of the local community on a region-by-region basis.

The aim of the performance monitoring and strategic analysis programme is, firstly, to monitor and evaluate the performance of state-owned enterprises, as well as to promote best performance management practices, and secondly to develop a strategic policy framework and analyse issues to enable the accelerated restructuring of state-owned enterprises. This programme received an increase of R6,77 million in 2001-02, where it received R10,7 million as opposed to the R3,95 million it got in the 2000- 01 revised estimate. This is an increase of 171,39%.

The alternative service delivery programme’s aim is to direct and manage alternative service delivery strategies to optimise service delivery in the accelerated restructuring of state-owned enterprises. This is the smallest of the four programmes, but it received an increase of R780 000 in 2001-02, where it received R2,53 million as compared to R1,65 million in 2000-01. This is an increase of 44,57%.

Our responsibility as legislators is to establish an enabling legislative environment for creating and maintaining the genetic imprint that makes state-owned enterprises unique and keeps them globally competitive. This will allow them to inspire the development of all biocorporative systems without having to manage the details of each single one of them. [Time expired.]

Ms N D NGCENGWANE: Mr Chairperson, this day marks yet another milestone and breakaway from the apartheid government’s reasons for having state-owned enterprises, and it signals the occasion of the Vote of the hon the Minister for Public Enterprises.

It is undoubtedly important that we celebrate the success of this ANC-led Government in its endeavours to accelerate the restructuring of state-owned enterprises. Progress has been made in the restructuring of Transnet, the holding company of all the strategic transport state-owned enterprises, including Spoornet, Portnet, SAA and Petronet, and this signifies tireless efforts by the hon the Minister and his department over the past year.

It would be politically incorrect not to reflect on where we come from with Transnet. These state-owned enterprises have been characterised by corruption, the mismanagement of funds, disrespect for corporate governance principles, and dominance by the white minority at all decision-making levels. It was the last resort for the employment of the uneducated white minority so that the question of white unemployment could be addressed. I refer to Transnet, which was in tatters, with no vision and desire to build this country’s economy, let alone address any social development.

The ANC-led Government came and turned around this Transnet mockery into a progressive entity, and made Transnet a central player in transport infrastructure in this country’s economic development. Indeed, we have steadily progressed with the restructuring process that we, as the ANC, had previously identified as the adequate answer to our challenges. Let me vouch, however, for the fact that it has not been problem-free. The hon the Minister and his department were equal to these challenges.

The key challenge facing Government with respect to Transnet’s restructuring has been to reverse the financial crisis it inherited from the former government. In particular, the resolution of pension fund debt, the divestiture of loss-making divisions and subsidiaries that are nonstrategic, and improved overall financial performance have been prioritised over the past few years. As a financial holding company, Transnet was unable to restructure strategic divisions such as Spoornet and Portnet until its financial crisis was resolved under the watchful eye of the hon the Minister for Public Enterprises and his department.

Mhlalingaphambili, namalungu abekekileyo, lo Rhulumente akajonganga ukuphuhlisa la masebe akhe, nje kuphela zikho nezinye izinto zalapha ekuhlaleni esiphila nazo, ezifana nokugweba indlala kweli lizwe. Le ke yinto awazibophelela kuyo uRhulumente, ngenxa yomsantsa ophakathi kwezityebi nabantu bakuthi abangenanto esandleni, owadalwa ngurhulumente wocalu-calulo owaphatha ithuba elingaphezu kwamashumi amane eminyaka, ebonelela kuphela abamhlophe, ukuze omnyama abe seshweni.

Kusekuninzi okufuna ukwenziwa apha koololiwe ukulungiselela uluntu ngokubanzi. Ubugebenga nobundlavini ezitishini zikaloliwe nangaphakathi, ukukhuthuzwa impahla neemali, sisonka semihla ngemihla. Iibhlorho zokuwela imizila kaloliwe phezu kwesiporo ukusuka kwelinye icala ukuya kwelinye ukuze abahambi bangatshayiswa ngoololiwe kufuneka zongeziwe. Unxibelelwano olululo luyimfuneko phakathi kwabasebenzisi boololiwe nabaphathi boololiwe. Loo nto ingenza ubambiswano olukhulu, ngakumbi xa kukho ezi ntlanganiso zibanjwa kunye noluntu kwezi ndawo kuhlala kuzo abantu ukuze abantu bakwazi ukugqithisa izikhalo zabo. Kufuneka kusetyenziswe nemibhobho le yokuhwaza, kuxelwe uloliwe ofikayo neplatfomu aza kufikela kuyo, kanti neethayimthebhile zixhonywe kwindawo abafikelelayo kuzo abantu. Iindawo zokungena kwiiplatfomu mazibe kumgama ongasentla kunezo zokuqabela oololiwe ukuthintela ukunyathelana nogxudululu. Kambe ke naba bangafuniyo ukuhlawula amatikiti baza kunqatyelwa kukungena kwiplatfomu. Okwakha kwenzeka ePaki asithandi kuphinda sikubone.

Imizila emidala yoololiwe, ngakumbi kwiindawo zabantu abangenanto esandleni, phakathi koMtata neQueenstown ukugqitha eMonti naphakathi kwePietermaritzburg neKokstad ukugqitha ngaseMzimkhulu kufanele ivulwe. Ke, iyonke le nto, ingathi ingalunga xa kunokubuyiselwa la mapolisa akudala kwakusithiwa ngawakwaRailway. Mhlawumbi izinto zingatsho zibe ngcono.

Sona isihelegu sokubiwa kwezibane zemiqondiso yesporo (signal heads) kwimizila yoololiwe abahamba ngaseSoweto sishiya imibuzo emininzi ezingqondweni’ kuba, xa zingekho ezi zibane, kulula ukuba oololiwe bangqubane. Nokhumbula ukuba uloliwe ngamnye uthwala phantse amawaka angamakhulu amathathu ngexesha lokutshayisa emisebenzini.

Noxa kunjalo ziyabonakala zona iinguqu kula masebe alo Rhulumente. Sibona oomanejala abamnyama bakwizikhundla eziphezulu, futhi abazange bayiphuphe nento yokuba kwezo zikhundla. Nabo ababhinqileyo babambe izikhundla eziphezulu emisebenzini. Bona abasebenzi abaphelelwe yimisebenzi baphinda baqeqeshelwe eminye imisebenzi yokuziphilisa. Emva kweminyaka emininzi emva kulungiswe iTransnet Pension Fund Bill yatsho yabonakala, apho iya ngakhona imali okokuqala. (Translation of Xhosa paragraphs follows.)

[Chairperson, and hon members, this Government is not only looking at developing its departments, there are other things that we live with in communities like eradicating poverty in this country. The Government has committed itself to this because of the division between the rich and our people that are poor, that was caused by the apartheid government that reigned for a period of more than forty years, providing only for white people and as a black person one would not be so fortunate.

There is still a lot more that needs to be done with regard to the railway system in general. The criminality at stations and inside trains, the stealing of people’s possessions and money is everyday news. More bridges still need to be built over railway lines so that trains do not knock down commuters. Better communication between train commuters and managers needs to be established. That would be a significant action that would result in co-operation, particularly when local communities are included in such meetings and discussions so that they can present their grievances. Communication systems would need to be used to announce the arrival and departure times of trains and timetables have to be placed in accessible places. Platforms need to be slightly higher than trains’ entrances to avoid accidents involving slipping and treading on each other. Those that do not want to buy tickets should not be able get onto the platforms. We would not like the experience at Park Station to repeat itself.

Old railway lines, especially in poor areas, between Umtata and Queenstown up to East London, and between Pietermaritzburg and Kokstad up to uMzimkhulu need to be re-opened. It seems that the situation could be improved by re-introducing what used to be called the Railway Police. Perhaps things could be better.

The bad habit of stealing signal heads on railway lines near Soweto leaves one with many questions because when these signal heads are not there, it could be easy for trains to collide. You will remember that each train has on board about three hundred thousand commuters during peak hours.

As much as there are such problems, so have many other developments occurred in this Government’s departments. We can see black managers in top positions that they never dreamt about. Women also hold high positions in their places of employment. Workers who have been retrenched are trained for other life skills. After many years the Transnet Pension Fund Bill has been amended and for the first time we can see where the money is going.]

In conclusion, the slogan in the Freedom Charter ``The people shall govern’’, means that Parliament, as the elected representatives of the people, should now and in future be empowered to play an effective oversight role with regard to the Budget. We have a mandate from the people of South Africa.

Great strides have been made by the ANC-led Government in the few years of its rule compared to the mess that the DA busied itself with for the 40-odd years that they were in power. This railway mess is the tip of the iceberg regarding the apartheid regime’s corruption and countless examples of mismanagement of the state-owned enterprises inherited by this Government. [Interjections.]

Unfortunately, the difference between politics and confession is that the opposition party confesses the sins of the ruling party, and they forget about their own sins. [Applause.]

Mr A Z A VAN JAARSVELD: Mr Chairperson, if the aim of the Department of Public Enterprises is to direct and manage the accelerated restructuring of state-owned enterprises to maximise shareholder value, we need to ask the following question: What is the manner in which the Government exercises its power in the management of economic and social resources to enhance human development in South Africa?

We need to establish whether the Department of Public Enterprises is really serious about the promotion of efficient, effective and sustainable entities that can contribute to society by the creation of wealth and the maximisation of shareholder value. How successful is the Minister in fulfilling his role as the accountable oversight functionary measured against the following principles: firstly, guardianship of interests; secondly, ensuring that all entities have the capability to function effectively and efficiently; thirdly, monitoring financial and socioeconomic performance; and fourthly, guaranteeing delivery on Government’s socioeconomic and other programmes.

Why is the department not taking ownership of and responsibility for the processes by which the various entities are supposed to be directed, controlled and held to account? The Minister has a corporate responsibility to protect the people of this country against exploitation. He is responsible for ensuring that the taxpayers’ money is well spent, and this is not happening.

Let us examine the statement by using two examples. Firstly, the whole saga surrounding the appointment and early departure of Coleman Andrews from SA Airways leaves a bitter taste in the mouth when one hears of the vast amounts of money that were thrown around. How can the Ministry justify the payment of R200 million to Coleman Andrews during his two and a half years of tenure at SAA? Such incidents cannot be allowed to happen.

Transparency and accountability are the two cornerstones of representative governance. It is an intrinsic right of the taxpayers to know what their money is spent on, when it is spent and why it is spent. The Minister owes the employees of SAA and the taxpayers of South Africa an explanation. The Minister should ensure that measures and internal controls are in place to prevent further episodes that smack so strongly of nepotism and poor business decisions. Furthermore, employment contracts should be in accordance with corporate governance principles.

I want to thank the Minister for the announcement that he made today that he has asked for an investigation and a full report. But it is like the invitation that I received for last night’s prebudget dinner. I only found it on my desk this morning and the food had already been eaten. [Laughter.] The Ministry has failed miserably in its role as an accountable oversight functionary in this case.

This brings me to the second example on which I wish to base my examination of the poor performance of the Ministry. The second example is one that exposes the Government’s lack of proper planning and transparency, once again. The way that the Government is handling the Ngqura port and the development of the Coega IDZ shows its total disregard for the very people this development is supposed to benefit. It is common knowledge that the unemployment rate in the Nelson Mandela metropole is way above 50%. The way that the Government is marketing this project is creating false expectations amongst the people, who are pinning their hopes on the thousands of jobs that will be created through the building of this harbour. When is the Government going to say to the people that the building of the harbour is only going to provide a few hundred temporary jobs, and not more than 100 permanent jobs after completion?

It is time that the Government came clean on the real reasons why they are building the harbour and the total amount of money that will be spent on this project and where it will come from. Who is really benefiting at the moment through the spin-offs of the proposed development? How many hungry children in Port Elizabeth have been fed through the jobs created by the more than R85 million that has been spent on the project to date? The answer is none; it has not created one extra job to date.

I want to stress that the DA will support any genuine effort to bring development and job opportunities to the Eastern Cape. But we will not allow the ANC Government to create false hope for the people through empty promises that will not be viable in the long term and will not benefit the country as a whole. The Minister must explain to Parliament how they will succeed in bringing enough bulk container freight to the port of Ngqura, if the container section of the harbour at present is only securing enough cargo to run at about 45% of capacity. Does the Government intend to manipulate the total of South African container freight away from other ports, resulting in an estimated annual loss of approximately R160 million to Transnet just so that the harbour succeeds?

In conclusion I want to say to the Minister that the DA will monitor progress towards the completion of the project, scheduled for 2004, but even more the people of Port Elizabeth and the Eastern Cape will also monitor the project. They will judge the Minister’s performance in the election of 2004, the same 2004, and the Minister will be found wanting. [Interjections.] [Time expired.] [Applause.]

Mr J T LOUW: Chairperson, Mr Minister, the DA can shout as much as they want, but they will never win any election in this country - never! [Interjections.] Just shut up! This Vote No 8 symbolises a shift in accentuation from hegemonised state-owned enterprises, as characterised by the previous regime, to well-structured enterprises adhering to corporate governance principles.

Let me commend the Minister for Public Enterprises on having amongst his Vote programmes a programme designed specifically to deal with corporate governance protocol for all public entities, as was developed in 1996 and approved by Cabinet, with its subsequent launch in 1997. Surely those who are opposed to change are still flabbergasted by this breakaway from the olden days? The inclusion of this programme can only imply that the ANC-led Government is committed to being in line with international best practices. The current protocol provides a framework for financial performance, including tax and dividends policies, and a code of corporate practice and conduct.

In retrospect, during the previous government’s term, not only were there state-owned enterprises characterised by corruption, inefficiency, ineffectiveness, mismanagement of funds, secrecy, a malicious attempt to sideline the majority of the people of this country and the fact that they were only intended to enrich poorly educated whites, but, moreover, corporate governance principles did not exist in their vocabulary and practice. The hire-and-fire policy was the only policy that they knew.

The strides made by the ANC-led Government to unlock the apartheid state entities need to be commended. Indeed, it has not been an easy task to restructure these public entities and transform them into world-class giants, geared and committed to the overall objective of economic growth and ultimately economic sustainability, amongst others social development and adherence to corporate governance and probity. The Government is undoubtedly on course in implementing a better life for all, through its state-owned enterprises.

What is the corporate governance we are talking about? Governments all over the world are faced with the mammoth task of evaluating and striving to improve the legal, institutional and regulatory framework for corporate governance. South Africa is not exempted from what is required of the rest of the world, and so it is also required to find its footing in the process of developing good corporate governance.

It is a well-known fact that our economic policy, Gear, was aimed at stabilising the economy and attracting foreign investment. Located in these assertions is the fact that corporate governance attracts investors. Investors always assess the role of a government and the models it employs in pursuing good corporate governance.

We should, however, also agree that any chosen model for corporate governance is not cast in stone, as socioeconomic and political trends, both domestic and international, dictate that corporate governance should change with time and circumstances. It is therefore imperative to note and acknowledge the synergy between macroeconomic and structural policies. An important strategy for improving the South African economy, in general, is only through corporate governance. Corporate governance involves a set of relationships between an enterprises management, its board and its shareholders.

In conclusion, our Government has an obligation to set up an effective regulatory framework that will contribute to sufficient flexibility, and to respond to expectations of both citizens, as stakeholders, and Government, as a shareholder. The ANC supports this Vote. [Applause.]

Mr L P M NZIMANDE: Hon Chairperson, hon Minister and hon members, I rise to further emphasise our support, as the ANC, of the Vote of the Department of Public Enterprises.

The ANC stated in Mafikeng, at its national conference, and again in Port Elizabeth, at its national general council meeting, that our country’s economic transformation policy should emphasise the pursuit of growth and development, noting the great need to increase the wealth of the country, by producing more goods and services in the same measure as we improve the quality of life of the poor, and effect, in a variety of ways, the redistribution of wealth and income in favour of those previously excluded from the mainstream economy.

Socioeconomic transformation should remain the thrust of our policy and programmes. We agree with the Minister’s and the department’s August 2000 policy declaration, which entrenches further the policies and beliefs of the ANC with regard to the restructuring and policy imperatives of the department. This declaration stated categorically our unambiguous belief that the department must lead the developmental efforts to remove the vestiges of apartheid and emphasised that the state-owned enterprises in South Africa represent massive financial investment in labour, technology and infrastructure resources.

The status of the state-owned enterprises should not be taken lightly when we reflect upon the invaluable contributions that they can make to evaluating the socioeconomic conditions of our society. The restructuring strategy is aimed at maximising the contributions that state assets can make to development.

Critical to this is the urgent task of job creation and an improvement in the quality of life of all our people. One of the most critical areas of economic policy and, indeed, just as critical as a measure of income distribution, is the creation of jobs. This is a priority that should form an integral part of Government and private-sector operations. We must continually intensify the implementation of a variety of measures to ensure that rapid economic growth is matched by the absorption of the unemployed and new job-seekers.

Government must intensify and expand social development, empowerment programmes and the broader infrastructural development of the creation of jobs as part of its central fucus. The ANC-led Government must continue to change the management and other echelons of the state-owned enterprises’ machineries to ensure that they are efficient, effective and productive in carrying out their functions. It must entail producing a new orientation in the prioritisation of services to society, rooting out corruption and introducing a new organisational culture and motivational value.

Success in transformation will depend critically on the role of the state. For this reason we reject with contempt the insinuations that our country needs less government involvement, which is, in essence, a ploy aimed at weakening the democratic state, as propagated by those who sit on the left side of this House and who defend … [Interjections.]

Mr D H M GIBSON: How do you report such nonsense?

Mr L P M NZIMANDE: … the privileges of the wealthy and the elite and call for the wholesale privatisation of state-owned assets and enterprises, merely to entrench the riches of their constituencies at the expense of the overwhelming poor majority of our people. Undoubtedly, it needs to be emphasised that efficiency and effectiveness require that the size of the Public Service should be in accordance with the needs and resources of the country. It also requires that, where appropriate, the public sector should form partnerships with private companies to bring about efficient, affordable and people-friendly services.

The Vote before us enables the department to continue to pursue vehemently the restructuring processes and to give us the capacity and strategies to manage, administer and enter into relationships with the managements of state-owned enterprises. This budget will make the Department of Public Enterprises more efficient in executing its social mandate and delivery obligations as set out under the relevant sections in the Constitution on the state’s obligations on socioeconomic rights to the people.

The shareholder compact sets out the necessary regulatory framework for the relationships, roles and responsibilities of both the state and its enterprises in order to ensure that they operate within the Government’s broad policy ambit. This regulatory framework includes the governance protocol which the Minister referred to earlier on. It is being reviewed, as has been stated before, to ensure that its appropriateness and relevance continue. [Time expired.] [Applause.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! Hon members, I would like to recognise and welcome to Parliament the following important players in industry in our country: from Denel the CEO, Mr A P Nel, the deputy CEO, Mr Max Sisulu, and Mr Zandile Zungi, and from Eskom the CEO Thulani Gcabashe, Mr Joe Matsau, Mr Nana Makgomula and the chairperson, Mr Reuel Khoza. [Applause.]

Mr C T FROLICK: Mr Chairperson, hon Minister and hon members, the aim of the Department of Public Enterprises has been clearly articulated. We concur with Government that this approach must be to the benefit of all South Africans through its crucial developmental role in terms of the provision of infrastructure and services and accelerating the access to economic participation by the previously disadvantaged groups in our country.

Huge expectations have been raised on the possible returns of the restructuring process. The hon the Minister of Finance expects that the accelerated pace of restructuring will yield R18 billion in this financial year, to finance a large percentage of the Budget deficit. Immense challenges await the Department of Public Enterprises as it embarks on sailing uncharted waters to implement the restructuring programme.

Investors constantly raise the issue of the costs involved in doing business in South Africa. Energy is one of the three economic sectors dominated by state-owned enterprises that Government wants to open to competition. Telecommunications and transport are the other two keys to lowering the cost of doing business, so as to attract local and foreign investment.

While the key principles of restructuring are sound, strong cognisance must be taken of the fact that any negative trends in this regard will raise tension in the local market and send mixed signals to possible foreign investors. Serious allegations relating to the remuneration package of former SAA CEO, Coleman Andrews, are a major cause for concern. The board of Transnet must clarify its role in this matter. The much- vaunted turnaround of SAA, which resulted in a profit of R350 million in the last financial year, has been attributed to Mr Andrews. Ironically, this profit is completely overshadowed by the R200 million that Mr Andrews reportedly received for his work in the past two years. We eagerly await the overdue annual report of SAA, in which some of these matters could be clarified.

The UDM further concurs with the Minister that Transnet must provide details of the amount paid to Mr Andrews, and if the allegations are proved to be correct, an explanation is indeed owed to the South African public. However, an explanation alone will not be sufficient, but it will require decisive action from the Minister to bring the culprits to book.

Certain key questions can already be asked on this issue. Firstly, who originally negotiated the appointment of Mr Coleman Andrews? Secondly, what were the terms of agreement of the contract? Thirdly, to what extent was the Transnet board involved in putting together this remuneration package? Hopefully, some hard lessons have been learned as, once again, millions of rands have been spent on an outside specialist to turn around a parastatal. The results are ambiguous.

The decision by Cabinet to endorse a request by the SA Post Office to cancel the contract with Transend, the New Zealand partner, is a further example. Although the input from foreign consultants could be invaluable to the restructuring process, we must guard against overreliance on their input. Very often, local citizens who can do a better job are available. While millions of rands are allegedly being siphoned out of our coffers by these specialists, the majority of South Africans still live in poverty and basic service delivery is virtually nonexistent.

Stakeholders identified by Government to play an important role in the negotiation process must carry equal responsibility to make this process succeed. This applies equally to business and organised labour. Too often phrases such as ``negotiating in bad faith by the Government’’ cast doubts on the effectiveness of the communication strategy which is in place to deal with these isses.

While the Minister must be complemented for adopting a very pragmatic approach in this regard, great care must be taken not to create the impression that the concerns of certain stakeholders outweigh those of others. The reasons for the union’s stance are both ideological and operational. We urge Cosatu to deal with this issue decisively in the proper forums instead of on a piecemeal basis. We wish the Minister and his department well as they face this crucial and difficult task ahead.

The UDM supports the Vote. [Applause.]

Mna R J B MOHLALA: Modulasetulo, Tona Jeff Radebe le maloko ao a hlomphegago, lesaedi ga le ke le hlokega koseng. Segologolo se tseba gabotse gore ba bangwe ba fofa pele meropa e lla. Ka fao lesaedi le swanetše go itebelela le bine gabotse le se ke la binela ka merithing, le gona le se ka la re gatela bana. (Translation of Sepedi paragraph follows.)

[Mr R J B MOHLALA: Mr Chairperson, hon Minister Jeff Radebe and hon members, on any dance floor there is bound to be a dancer whose performance will be out of step with the rest. Our culture also recognises that there are those who jump even before the rhythmic beating of the drums starts. Therefore, a dancer whose movements are out of step with a tune needs to observe appropriate rules and should neither dance in the shadows nor tread upon our children.]

Allow me, today, to sound a bit academic. There is growing uneasiness when the word ``restructuring’’ is mentioned, for some people simply translate it into privatisation. Let me show what the difference is. Privatisation is but one of the approaches of restructuring. Restructuring has in it other approaches such as incorporation, outsourcing, joint ventures, concessioning and public-private partnerships.

The other approaches may yield results in terms of performance while realising, at the same time, Government’s more developmental objectives. Having said that, it is not true that restructuring only leads to job losses and therefore negative consequences. The failures of restructuring that have been seen internationally so far are as a result of structural programmes within the market environment in which restructuring takes place.

In restructuring state-owned enterprises, the Government has adopted a strategy that is sensitive to the specific circumstances of the individual state-owned enterprises and the industrial sector of which they are part. The strategy referred to ensures, firstly, wider participation by all stakeholders in policy formulation and implementation; secondly, that organised labour in general and employees of the affected public-sector organisations in particular are full participants in policy formulation and implementation; and thirdly, that specific goals are formulated for the participation of disadvantaged groups.

Restructuring must be allowed to lead to the redistribution of affordable services to the poor and the disadvantaged. The restructuring programme must be tailored to the specific political and economic circumstances of the country and it should be appropriately designed, technically as well as politically.

International experience has shown that state-owned enterprises contribute to a government’s budget deficit and macro instability and are inefficient and ineffective. Therefore, through restructuring, the Government will simultaneously improve economic efficiency and reduce its fiscal deficit. This, of course, comes at a price: the political costs of the process itself and impediments to further reform conditions under which restructuring can achieve the political objectives of efficiency and equity.

It is common knowledge that restructuring and, in particular, privatisation have been less successful where private ownership has not been accompanied by greater market competition. If, for instance, competition is lacking, then creating a private unregulated monopoly will be likely to result in even higher prices for consumers. Hence, therefore, the Government must at all times remain a major shareholder and regulator of these state-owned enterprises.

One of the scholars of restructuring has this to say. He says it might be necessary to privatise the privatised. It is also clear, from the international perspective, that if institutional preconditions are not established, then privatisation might not only lead to failure, but could also result in even worse economic outcomes. But, having said the above, I feel it is quite clear that our Government is convinced that the route that it has taken is going to prove the detractors of Government policy wrong.

The detractors of Government policy rely on referring to restructuring programmes piecemeal, their favourite being the area of transport. But let me inform the House that there is general agreement that is now coherent within the South African railway system and, more particularly, Spoornet, that shifting more business onto Spoornet is an important national priority to achieve a better balance between road and rail, bearing in mind that rail is safer, environmentally friendly and more fuel efficient. Shifting more to rail will take the burden off our increasingly damaged roads.

Bomabinagosolwa ba rata gore re dule re theeditše bona ge ba rekiša molomo; e le ge ba botša batho ka mokgwa woo dilo di befilego ka gona le gore selo se sebotse ke sa bona; etšwe ba re botša lefeela la mafeela. Lenane- kgoparara la mmušo le laetša gore le a šoma, gape ebile le a atlega. Mmušo wa ANC o swaragane le nngalaba ya taba; o swaragane le go lokiša mararankodi ao a hlotšwego ke mmušo wola wa pele wa dinwamadi.

Tona Radebe o swanetše go tšewa boka senatla seo se tsebago gore batho ba gaborena ba emetše mešomo yeo e tlago ba tlišetša bokamoso. Seo se tlo bonagala ka lenaneo la go bapiša ditirelo tša mmuso. Ge e le ba bona ba paletšwe. Le se ke la hlwe le ba theeditše gobane ga go na se sengwe se se kaone seo ba ka se tlišago. Sa bona ke go re gogela morago le go re diba; ba dira gore re kitime lešikahlabeng gore se ke ra ba le lebelo. Ge re ka senya nako ya rena re boledišana le bona, re lebelela gore ba rata go reng, re tlo ikhwetša re boetše morago ga mengwagangaga, gobane ba paletšwe mengwageng ye masome a mane ya go feta. [Legofsi.] (Translation of Sepedi paragraphs follows.)

[Some novices in the opposition benches want us to listen to their allegations of how things are bad in Government today and how they alone should be credited with everything that is good; and yet we know for a fact that what they are saying has no substance whatsoever. Government’s restructuring programme is on course and successful. The ANC-led Government is indeed faced with the enormous challenge of cleaning up the monumental mess created by the previous regime of the vampires.

Minister Radebe should be applauded for his announcement that many of our people are expecting services that must ensure sustainability. This will be evidenced by the state-owned enterprises. We must not waste our time listening to those detractors over there because their intention is to retard our progress by forcing us to walk in the sand. If we waste our time talking to them we may find our progress retarded by years, in the same way they failed this country in their forty years of misrule. [Applause.]]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! hon members will see that the visitors’ gallery is filling up with a lot of young people. Today, being International Children’s Day, the people’s Parliament is very glad and happy to welcome all these young people. I am sure that hon members would like to show their appreciation with a round of applause. [Applause.]

Amongst other people whose names I have not mentioned, but who are here in Parliament today, are Dr Sivi Gounden, Dr Ian Phillips, Dr E Mokejane, Mr Andile Nkuhlu, Mr Lucky Montana, Mr D Matjila, Prof Tager and Mr Mkhwanazi. All of them are very welcome. [Applause.]

I call upon Dr S E M Pheko to address the House.

An HON MEMBER: Azania! Dr S E M PHEKO: Azania! Chairperson, public enterprises which involve the privatisation of state assets have been a controversial issue for some time. The Government maintains that privatisation will make the economy grow and create more jobs. The PAC is not convinced about this, especially at this stage, when the African majority of this country have neither skills nor capital to take advantage of the sale of state assets to the public.

The policy, though fashionable, has been characterised by increased poverty and the loss of jobs. The SA Reserve Bank has reported that formal sector employment fell by 3% last year, as a result of restructuring and retrenchment in most economic sectors. It has been predicted that there will be a further 3% decline this year. The increasing unemployment and poverty have serious implications for combating crime. Telkom alone has retrenched 16 000 workers, while Transnet had 115 317 workers in March 1995, but now has 78 708. This is a loss of 36 609 jobs.

There must be a degree of Government intervention in the economy of this country, otherwise we shall have the kind of liberation in which we are free only to fly our own flag and sing our national anthem, Nkosi Sikelel’ iAfrika, while the economy is controlled by the rich and foreigners, and our lot in this country is poverty, disease and ignorance. We are permanently trapped in the economic quagmire.

Those who think that they can solve economic problems in countries that were previously colonised without the indigenous majority controlling the economy of their country, are risking constant labour strikes by workers and a revolution by the poor. [Time expired.]

Mr M A MAPHALALA: Chairperson, Comrade Minister, hon members, the glorious leaders of the future South Africa, I congratulate them all. [Applause.] From the outset I must state that I support this budget by the Department of Public Enterprises. No surprise.

It will be necessary to state the reasons for the support of this budget. The first thing that must be stated clearly is that in this House we are divided fundamentally according to the interests and the objectives that we want to achieve as a country. That is why we will always differ when it comes to issues of budget and policy. Up until 1994 the majority of people in this country wanted a better life, freedom and democracy and access to basic services such as clean water, decent education, housing, food security, health services and modern means of communication and energy supply.

The people wanted and were crying for these things because the government up till 1994 was not interested in the provision of such services to the ordinary people of this country. When we took over in 1994, therefore, it was the responsibility of this Government to ensure that it developed a plan that would bring about transformation in this country, so that people received such basic necessities as they wanted.

If one listens to today’s debate, it is clear that the objectives are different. Those on my left-hand side, particularly the DA, are speaking of the restructuring of public enterprises in order to make it possible for the rich and the established capitalist enterprises to generate more profit. That is why Mr Heine kept on speaking of the privatisation of public enterprises and asked how far we had moved in that direction. We are saying that the restructuring of public enterprises should take place in order to enable ordinary people to receive decent services. [Interjections.] Privatisation and restructuring are not the same. Privatisation may be part of restructuring, and we are speaking of the restructuring of public enterprises in order that they provide services to the communities. I am convinced that this Government is moving exactly in that direction and the plan is there. I want to congratulate the Minister on the fact that the plan is there to restructure public enterprises in such a way that services are provided for our people.

I was born and bred kwantuthu, kwanjayiphume [in a rural area]. [Interjections.]

Lapho engikhulele khona ukuze kubaswe endlini kuphekwe, kwakufuneka ukuthi kucabaywe amalongwe - amakaka ezinkomo, kwabangazi ukuthi ngikhuluma ngani. [Uhleko.] Ngikhuluma ngendaba yasemakhaya lapha, hhayi eyaselokishini nasedolobheni. Emakhaya izintambo zikagesi ziphambene phezu kwezindlu yonke indawo. (Translation of Zulu paragraph follows.)

[People had to use cow dung for fuel if they wanted to cook. I am talking about a beast’s faeces to those who do not know what I am talking about. [Applause.] I am talking about the rural experience, not about the township or urban experience. Electricity lines in the rural areas cross one another on the roof and everywhere.]

There are a few areas that do not have electricity cables all around the houses throughout the rural areas in this country today. It is precisely because this Government has a plan of transformation of this country. It is no coincidence that those wires are not there, because Eskom is looking for profit. It is because Eskom has a duty to provide energy to those poor communities, as well as to industry, providing energy to urban areas.

It is precisely because there is a plan. One cannot speak of a healthy nation unless people in the country are able to communicate with their friends and relatives in distant places. Again, it was different in this country when I grew up.

Ngangingawazi uthelefoni emakhaya ukuthi ukhona uyakwazi ukungena. [I did not know that telephones could be installed in the rural areas.]

But today one can go to any rural area, and there will be green and blue boxes all over the place. That is because Telkom is providing the means of communication.

Ezikoleni kukhona othelefoni nogesi. [There are telephones in schools.]

This is so that computers can be installed there and our children can receive a decent and better education. It is because this Government has a plan. [Interjections.] [Applause.] People are not here to be educated about speeding up the process. In the June 1999 elections, people of this country said that they had confidence in the plan of the ANC-led alliance, but it had to speed up the process of the provision of such services and delivery. [Applause.]

Bengithi ngizosheshisa namhlanje. [I thought I would be quick today.]

The MINISTER FOR PUBLIC ENTERPRISES: Chairperson, hon members, I think 98% of the speakers who have spoken have supported this Vote. The exceptions were Mr Pheko and Mr Van Jaarsveld.

Starting with Comrade Pheko, I think we should, perhaps, remind him that we have outlined, as a department, our approach to the restructuring programme in the portfolio committee and, unfortunately, Comrade Pheko did not attend a single meeting to deal with these fundamental matters that relate to our approach. But perhaps his major weakness, like the PAC, is that he is really an armed revolutionary who does not want change in South Africa. I want to remind him, because they are advocates of Utopian socialism, that the founding father of socialism, Karl Marx, said: `` Philosophers have interpreted the world in different ways, but the most important thing, is to change it.’’ So join the world of the living, not Alice in Wonderland. [Applause.]

Mr Van Jaarsveld was also a great disappointment, because the question he asked about Coega has been asked twice in Parliament. It means that he does not read Hansard, where the answers are really contained. He also complained that he had not been invited to the prebudget dinner last night. If he spent more time in his office and doing parliamentary work, he would have found the invitation in his office in Parliament two days ago. [Interjections.]

Mr A Z A VAN JAARSVELD: Chairperson, on a point of order: Both Mr Heine and I received our invitations this morning.

The MINISTER: If he spent more time in his office he would have found that invitation. But, in any case, the horse bolted to the four corners of the world, and we ate that dinner last night. [Laughter.]

But for those members of Parliament who do their work on the issue of Coega, I want to confirm today that Portnet is investing R1,6 billion on building infrastructure in the Port of Nqura. These costs are necessary for us to ensure that this project is viable, not for Mr Van Jaarsveld, but for the people of the Eastern Cape, who dearly need this investment so that jobs can be created in that particular area.

All people have been consulted on this and there is even an Act of Parliament that deals with this issue of the port of Nqura. Therefore the hon member cannot come at this late hour and complain that nothing has been done. As a Government we are committed to ensuring that this port of Nqura will contribute to the economic development not only of the Nelson Mandela metropole, but of the economy of the Eastern Cape as a whole.

Lastly, before I resume my seat I want to take this opportunity to thank my department, starting with the director-general, who has steered the department on these major challenges that confront us in the restructuring programme. Officials who work in the department have done sterling work in ensuring that we are where we are at this present moment. I also want to thank the state-owned enterprises, especially the directors of boards and senior management.

I notice in the public gallery that we have the chairman of the Board of Transnet, Prof Louise Tager, and the chief executive, Mafika Mkhwanazi. I also see Reuel Khoza, the chairman of Eskom, and Thulani Gcabashe, the chief executive. We also have various top leaders in state-owned enterprises.

I also wish to take this opportunity to welcome the new chairman of the Denel board, Mr Sandile Zungu, who begins his chairmanship today, 1 June. Bringing young dynamic people who have new blood into these state-owned enterprises will invigorate state-owned enterprises so that we move to higher levels. At the same time, I would like to take this opportunity to thank Mr Ian Deetlefs, who has been the chairman of the board for quite some time, during the most trying times of the development of Denel. His role will continue as he is one of the senior members of Denel. I am sure that transition is moving smoothly at Denel.

To my portfolio committee, starting with Mr Sakkie Belot, let me say that his leadership has been very strong in this committee. We appreciate the robust intercourse we have with them on the issues of state asset restructuring. I want to assure all the other members of the portfolio committee that we are going to be having a very busy time as we move towards the implementation of the major programmes that we are embarking upon.

Lastly, I would like to take this opportunity to thank all the children who are here with us, celebrating International Children’s Day. All the big words that have been spoken here in Parliament, all the programmes and policies that are being implemented, are for the benefit of our children, who are the leaders of tomorrow. I hope that the children will learn a lot here. [Applause.] To my idol Mzambiya: Siyojayiva [We will jive] later. [Applause.]

Debate concluded.

                    INTERNATIONAL CHILDREN'S DAY

                      (Subject for Discussion)

Ms H I BOGOPANE: Chairperson, allow me to take this opportunity to welcome South Africa’s children who are here with us today. I want to say to them: Welcome to Parliament, we are happy to have you today.

I must say, this morning I got a good taste of what it feels like to be the mother of many children. It makes sense, for the first time, to chair a committee on children and experience what it really means in practice. Welcome, we are very honoured to be with you today.

On 19 to 21 September 2001, world leaders will focus their attention on children and young people when the United Nations General Assembly hosts a special session on children. Government leaders, heads of state, NGOs, children’s advocates and even children themselves will attend.

The United Nations secretary-general will open the session with a report on the progress that has been made for children in the last 10 years. In the course of three extraordinary days, participants will work towards an agreement on the critical actions that will be taken over the next decade on behalf of children.

More than a decade ago, world leaders put children on both the political agenda and the human rights map. The year was 1990 and the occasion was the World Summit for Children, an unprecedented event on behalf of children. The summit adopted a plan of action with precise time-bound goals to ensure the health and security of the world’s children. It also launched a campaign for the ratification and implementation of the Convention on the Rights of the Child. Now it is time to see how well governments have tied up these commitments.

We committed our Joint Monitoring Committee on Improvement of Quality of Life and Status of Children, Youth and the Disabled, Persons when we joined our previous president, the hon Mandela, and Mrs Machel, in fighting for a global world for children. This is what we are saying: We are among the most privileged of men and women. We have witnessed the triumph of the human spirit as its yearning for freedom took form in the actions of our people. We have seen those actions change relations and continents.

We have stood shoulder to shoulder with leaders of every description as they acted with courage in situations both public and private, both nationally and locally - leaders who might not have realised they were leaders, but simply did what they knew was right. Together with these visionaries we have shared the dreams of a more inclusive world, a fairer world and a more peaceful world. Together we have worked long years to bring those ideals to our townships, our cities and our countries.

We have had countless conversations with thinkers and poets, scientists and activists, politicians and businessmen, with mothers and fathers, grandmothers and grandfathers, aunts and uncles, young children and older adolescents about how we can make this world a better place for all of us to live in. When we look at the lives of the world’s children, it is with their eyes, the eyes of the men and women who have seen what can be done to change the world when people act in the service of an ideal world.

Let us join our President in all that we are doing when he said:

As we strengthen the bonds of friendship and solidarity with our fellow Africans, we have an obligation to help ensure, in our country and everywhere else on our continent, that no African child should ever again walk in fear of guns, tyrants and abuse; that no African child should ever again experience hunger, avoidable disease and ignorance; that no African child should ever again feel ashamed to be an African.

And that is the task given to this committee.

As we look at our children in every country and every region of the world, we see young lives scarred by poverty and violence, racked by disease, contorted by discrimination. In the shadows cast by bursting wealth, we see futures cut short and potential unrealised because of a lack of education. Despite the miracles of science, we see a generation and the generation after that being lost. Indeed, South Africa has made great strides. We write these words that our hearts would have us shout: We must not let this be. We cannot waste our precious children, not another one, not another day. It is long past time for us to act on their behalf. Indeed, we will do so.

We now take our privilege and put it at the service of the children of the world. We join our lifelong struggle for justice with Unicef, with the Office on the Rights of the Child and with all other structures dealing with children, for a mission to protect children’s rights, to help meet their basic needs and to expand their opportunities to reach their full potential. We urgently implore those who would be leaders, from Government, civil society and the private sector, to do the same. We congratulate Telkom on the brave step that they have taken in supporting and continuing to support the National Plan of Action for South Africa.

Surely in a world in which we have the means to cure many of the cancers that only a decade ago were considered lethal, we are able to vaccinate all children against diseases? Surely in a world where communication technology lets some children exchange messages across oceans in seconds, we are able to provide every child with a basic education of the very highest quality? And surely we can stand by the commitments that were made when nearly every government in the world signed the Convention on the Rights of the Child, which, by the way, South Africa has signed unconditionally?

The future of our children lies in leaders and the choices leaders make. We call on those we have called on before to join us in the new global partnership that is committed to this change. We invite those whom we have never met to join us in the global movement for children. We challenge those who currently enjoy the riches of the world to take their knowledge and power, their technologies and resources, and most of all, their imaginations and creativity, and help the world to create a better life for children.

For every conversation we have had, we will have 10 more about children. No matter what is first on a meeting agenda or for what reason we have been invited to a place, we will talk about children. We will talk about their rights to healthy and nurturing families, basic health services and a quality education, and the opportunity to be active participants in their communities. We will talk about their places as the pivotal link in the processes of human development.

We have seen too much change to simply accept the way children are living. We have too much hope in the potential of children to leave things as they are. We have too much faith in our fellow human beings to doubt that the global movement we are calling for can happen. Our children are our future. We commend the progress the South African Government has made in the commitment they have made to children.

Today we have launched the end-of-the decade report, the State of the Nation Report on Children. We request members to join us as we sign the media code for children, and we congratulate the media on their important step in ensuring that the rights of children will be protected and respected. We really applaud that. Let me also take the opportunity to applaud the newly established media council. It will ensure that the media reports accurately, and that the right to information as well as the right to basic education for children are also adhered to.

International Children’s Day is a day observed by all children, and we are pleased here today to join the world, and to welcome children for the very first time as we commence. This is the beginning of many more to come, and we will see many more children join us here today. [Applause.]

Mr M C J VAN SCHALKWYK: Mr Chairperson, South Africa is today a poorer country. The loss this morning of South Africa’s longest-surviving child Aids sufferer, Nkosi Johnson, adds great sadness to this day and this debate. We celebrate his memory; we salute his courage in both the fight against HIV/Aids and the struggle to increase awareness of the plight of children suffering from this disease.

A Parliament that devotes time to giving recognition to International Children’s Day is a Parliament with its heart in the right place. This debate is about our children, their plight and their place in South African society. It is about protecting them and also about creating opportunities to enable them to fulfil their aspirations, and to take their rightful place in the future of our country. Many of those aspirations were also held by the mothers and fathers and grandmothers and grandfathers of today, but circumstances and history prevented them from being fulfilled. Today we can say that our children are better positioned to achieve their goals in life.

But this debate this morning is not only about our children. Of necessity, it is also about parents and families and about values. The challenges facing our children are not only about children, they go to the very heart of family, community and community strength. Too often the focus is only on the role of the state and of the government and charters in protecting the rights of our children. These have their place and are necessary, but they are not sufficient. Even more important is the role of parents, of functional families, of communities and of the kinds of values that are imparted to our children - the value of personal responsibility, the value of being part of a community and knowing that every individual carries the responsibility for the common good as well, and, in our country, the value of being a South African! Our children must know our history, not to divide them, but to unite them to make our country a success. Our children have inherited a country with many challenges but much promise.

Baie van ons kinders word groot in omstandighede van fisiese, materiële of sosiale onsekerheid. Drie uit elke vyf van ons kinders leef in arm huishoudings, en een uit elke vier Suid-Afrikaanse kinders gaan elke aand honger bed toe. Een uit elke vier huishoudings bestee minder as R50 ‘n week aan kos. Daar is ook baie voorbeelde van ouers wat honger bed toe gaan sodat hulle kinders dit juis gespaar kan bly - ouers wat hulle eie welstand opoffer om hulle kinders se onthalwe. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraph follows.)

[Many of our children grow up in circumstances of physical, material or social uncertainty. Three out of every five of our children live in poor households, and one out of every four South African children goes to bed hungry every night. One out of every four households spends less than R50 a week on food. There are also many examples of parents who go to bed hungry so that their children may be spared precisely that - parents who sacrifice their own wellbeing for the sake of their children.]

But it is not just material shortages that challenge our children and their families. Added to this is the fact that the youngest and most vulnerable members of our society are preyed upon by evil in many guises. At least a quarter of Cape Town’s prostitutes are children under the age of 18 years. In Johannesburg it is estimated that 40% of the more than 10 000 prostitutes are children under the age of 18 years. According to the UN Children’s Fund, one in every four girls and one in every eight boys in our country will have their first sexual experience through force, coercion or abuse before they reach the age of 14 years. Between 85% and 90% know their abusers.

Many of our children do not have the freedom to be children. The pressures to try drugs are immense. In 1997 a study of 200 high schools around the country found that one in every three school- children were exposed to or in some way involved with drugs. The same study in 1998 showed that this had increased to two in every three learners. Use of illegal substances by schoolchildren has increased about fivefold over the past six years.

Child labour is an issue that is often ignored, but it exists in South Africa. Many people underestimate the seriousness and the extent of child labour. It is serious. It deprives children of their youth. It takes away the right of a child to have a childhood. When children like 16-year-old Siphiwe Ndlovu are found filling sacks with coal in Soweto for R100 a week, it is hard to believe that our country has one of the most protective and child-friendly constitutions in the world. This is an issue which does not receive due attention, and it is important that we do not turn our eyes away from it. South Africa should urgently ratify UN Convention 182, which deals with the elimination of the worst forms of child labour. Companies or individuals guilty of child exploitation should be aggressively prosecuted and punished.

South Africa has guaranteed many of the rights of children through declarations and the Bill of Rights, but needs more concrete action to help our children. For instance, legislation should be enacted to establish and maintain a child abuse and sexual offenders register and certain categories of employment should require vetting against this register. Law enforcement officers should also be required to check any persons arrested on charges of child abuse if their names appear on this list, suggesting that they are repeat offenders, and should be obliged to bring this information to the attention of the courts. Any person whose name appears on that register should be required to report any change of address to the nearest police station in the new residential area.

The SA Police Service personnel budget should be increased as a once-off stopgap measure by 25% to address the shortages of police officers. We believe this can be accommodated. The sexual offences Bill should be fast- tracked. It has been talked about for more than two years now and it has yet to be tabled. The testing of DNA and the DNA database must be fully automated and expanded.

A basic subsistence grant of at least R100 a month should be instituted for every adult who earns less that R7 000 a year to help stabilise food security. The amount of R100 may not sound like much, but for those who have nothing it is a life line of hope. We must ensure a proper anti-Aids campaign with the focus on prevention.

Child welfare organisations, charities and NGOs that care for our youth have been deprived of much-needed funding by the foot-dragging and delays in making substantial lotto payouts to good causes. This must be corrected immediately and the lotto money used to the benefit of our children.

In conclusion, it is time to help our children reclaim their childhood, time to rid the streets and the playgrounds of rapists and murderers, time to inspire the kind of loyalty that South Africa deserves. This is the least that we can do for them. [Applause.]

Mrs L R MBUYAZI: Mr Chairperson, Ministers and my grandchildren, I thank you.

Sanibona bantabami. Sanibona Bazukulu bami. [Greetings my children. Greetings my grandchildren.]

This is another day set aside by the international community to highlight the value of children as part of the world community. This day also conscientises us regarding the invaluable and priceless gift God and nature have accorded us. It is also a day in history that reminds us of the role we as adults should play in the expeditious and venturesome journey to adulthood.

We were all children once. We all remember what we did as children. We also grew up and now we are adults. I am a granny. Ngiwugogo namhlanje.[I am a granny today.] We were all children, and when we reminisce about those days I am sure every one of us says: ``Those were the good old days.’’ I am also confident that most of us cherish those days.

Although the political landscape was not good for many of us in this country who cared, our parents, to whom we owe our very being, did the unbelievable by raising us. The important question to ask is: What has gone wrong with us that we have in our midst child abusers, child rapists, child deprivers - the list is endless? Today we have children roaming the streets and roaming in the cold at night in order for them to survive, and to make matters worse, most of these children have parents.

Let us blow the whistle. [Interjections.] This is the whistle, and I am sure that most of the people in the House did receive these whistles. Whenever they come across these things that I mentioned, these rapists, they must blow these whistles.

These children left their homes because life was untenable at home. They were abused by their own parents, their fathers, brothers, uncles - you name it. What has happened to our value system? Where is our long cherished Africanness, ubuntu and family values? What legacy are we going to leave behind? Some of the children do not have food to eat, some of them walk long distances to school, some of them do not have parents, some do not have jerseys to wear during winter, some are harassed by their parents. Sexual harassment even takes place at schools.

We as parliamentarians, in whom the general trust of society is placed, need to protect the rights of our children by developing and implementing service plans and agreements that address the needs, rights and best interests of children. We need to advocate children’s rights whenever family members, community institutions such as schools or foster homes, law- enforcement agencies and other administrative practices appear to encroach upon the rights of children. We welcome in this regard all legislation that was and is to be introduced in this House to address the issue of child protection and care. The Maintenance Act, the Domestic Violence Act and the Natural Fathers of Children Born out of Wedlock Act are a few examples of legislation that in one way or another protects the rights of children.

The IFP believes in the principle of family values that are not confined to one’s immediate or nuclear family, but go far beyond that, to the extended family and ultimately the larger communal family. The Minister of Social Development, Dr Skweyiya, is rightly fond of saying: Umntwana womunye umuntu ngumntwana wami. Umntwana wami ngumntwana womunye umuntu. [Someone else’s child is also my child. My child is also someone else’s.] This is the African concept of family values.

Family values incorporate the protection of the oral tradition, which is fast dissipating among our communities and families. The oral tradition passed on stories in the form of riddles, tales, fables and prose. This, in turn, groomed listening and co-ordinative skills among children. Where are those grannies today who could pass on this heritage? Have they been swallowed up by the sophistication of the modern world? Today African parents communicate with children maybe in English.

Abasakwazi ukukhuluma nabantwana. Abantwana abasabazi ubuzwe nobuntu babo ngoba sekufike isintu esisha ngenxa yokuthi abantwana bethu sibafundisa ezikoleni lapho izilimi zethu zingasetshenziswa khona, bese kuthi nasekhaya bengabe besakwazi ukufunda nangenhlonipho.

Kukhona ingane ekhulume yathi: ``Siyadinga ukuthi nina bazali nisifundise inhlonipho ngoba anisasinikezi inhlonipho, kunalokho nisifundisa khona lokhu enilwa ngakho enithi masingakwenzi kodwa futhi sibuye sikuzwe ngaphandle. Nalabo abasiyalayo nabo bangaphandle.’’ Umzali akasakwazi ukukhuza ingane yomunye umuntu ngaphandle. Ingane nayo ayisafuni ukuhlonipha omunye umzali ngoba ithi akusiye umzali wayo. Ngakho-ke ibalulekile indaba yokuthi sikwazi ukuhlonipha. [Kwaphela isikhathi.] [Ihlombe.] (Translation of Zulu paragraphs follows.)

[Today children do not know how to speak. They do not know their culture and identity because of the new generation. We take our children to schools in which our languages are not spoken, and they do not learn respect at home.

One child said: ``We need you parents to teach us respect because now you do not respect us. Instead you teach us what you are telling us not to do. We learn it outside. Those who misdirect us are outside.’’ A parent cannot advise another parent’s child. A child will not listen to another parent because he will say that that parent is not his parent. Therefore it is important for us to learn respect. [Time expired.] [Applause.]]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! While we wait for the hon M I Moss, I might as well tell to you that the hon Prof Hariett Ngubane, who would have liked to be here today, is recuperating after surgery.

Mr M I MOSS: Mr Chairperson, hon Minister, hon members and the most important guests in the House, our children, I am honoured and privileged to participate in what I believe is the most important debate in Parliament, as yet.

We are today celebrating International Children’s Day and joining all the children of the world on this important occasion. The theme today, in the South African context, is: ``Hear our children, hear our voices.’’ The children have spoken and their voices are being heard. They have spoken on many important and touching issues. Allow me to reflect on some of them. They have spoken about their rights. They have spoken about their right to be loved, to be safe, to be good, to a good education, to be cared for, to be housed, to play, to enjoy all the good constructive things in life, and many more.

The ANC is proud of what it has done for children in the short space of seven years in Government. We had no choice but to do it for the children, as they deserve it. They are our most important gifts because they are our future and we treasure them very highly. To substantiate the above, I want to share a couple of examples. President Thabo Mbeki, whilst he was the Deputy President of our country, accommodated the children’s portfolio in his office. Their interests, as children, are held very highly. The office of the status of the child is now in the Presidency.

The opening of parliaments all over the world is regarded as the most important programme of the parliaments. The guard of honour, when parliaments open across the world, normally consists of the top, the very best, army men and women. A couple of years ago, our President had children on both sides of the road as he walked to open Parliament: a very big honour indeed.

Almost all departments try to make laws, and good laws, for children. The South African Government made laws which give children, up to the age of six, free hospital care in Government hospitals and clinics. Children under the age of 18 are not allowed to be in prison, but have to be detained in places of safety. A Child Protection Unit was established to specialise in protecting children from all kinds of violence, abuse and sexual offences. Our role is to ensure that these laws are implemented.

The Nelson Mandela Children’s Fund is another good example. The ex- President of South Africa is raising millions of rands annually for the fund and many children benefit through this charity. Mr Mandela and his wife, Graça Machel, are leading a movement called the Global Movement for Children and reach out to leaders from all sectors of society to change the world for children. The Global Movement for Children is a driving force for children’s rights. The movement calls on everyone everywhere to do as much as possible in their own time and their own way for children. The call to everybody today is to join the movement and make a difference.

I call on the media to join those elements of the press that play a constructive role in the promotion of children’s rights. The media can make sure that children get on the front pages of the newspapers. The many good and positive things and stories will assist to educate and inform our public on children’s rights. As I joined the children in the Old Assembly Chamber this morning, my heart was filled with pain and joy. The pain was for those of them who cannot walk, talk or hear and who suffer from diseases and illnesses. However, children should not regret this.

The first speaker on this podium, our chairperson Henrietta Bogopane, is virtually blind. I myself, as all can see, cannot walk. Wilma Newhoudt- Druchen, who will speak here later, cannot speak or hear. However, the three of us are educated and are members of Parliament. [Applause.]

We want the children to strive for the best and only the very best. We want them to become engineers, lawyers and presidents of the country, because they are our future. This is a message of hope, a president of hope, a Ministry and Parliament of hope. Yes, of course, we can all bring a better life to our children. [Applause.]

Mr M L DA CAMARA: Chairperson, I would like to take this opportunity to express my condolences to the friends and family of Nkosi Johnson. The courage that Nkosi showed in his short life in many ways exceeds the courage that many never show in a lifetime. In life Nkosi’s contribution to the fight against HIV/Aids was a valuable one, particularly his actions which highlighted the plight of children infected and affected by HIV/Aids. I only pray that we as a nation will draw on some of Nkosi’s courage, and that his life will encourage us to make those difficult but necessary decisions for the good of the many children who suffer as he did.

The Convention on the Rights of the Child was drawn up in the belief that governments have an obligation to serve the interests of children. It is International Children’s Day on 1 June, and I would like to take this opportunity to reflect on how we, as a nation, a signatory to this convention, are living up to its core promises. The convention asserts that the state must protect children from any form of discrimination. It must take positive action to promote rights. It directs member countries to ensure that children have access to basic health, welfare and education, but, above all, to protect them. Surely, if we take a rational and objective view of the situation, we have to admit that we do not live up to these standards. Idasa’s latest findings show that child poverty is on the increase in South Africa, with 72% of our children living in near absolute poverty. Aids has made child-headed households common, and our child abuse figures are amongst the highest in the world. In addition to this, nearly 1 million children are not in school, and 42% of candidates failed matric last year, owing to the inadequate education they receive at schools.

The Government’s refusal to take Aids prevention and its treatment seriously is displayed by its hedging on the provision of antiretroviral medication, which exacerbates the situation. [Interjections.] This outrageous stance sentences the parents of thousands of children to a premature death. It is estimated that approximately 150 000 children have been orphaned as a direct result of Aids and that, by 2005, 1 million children under the age of 15 would have lost at least one parent. [Interjections.] Alarmingly, the Health Systems Trust predicts that the number of Aids orphans will increase to 2 million by 2010.

The prospect for any orphaned child is, at the best of times, not good. In the context of the Aids epidemic, the future looks even bleaker. Many extended families are taking on the parenting of these orphans, but the lack of financial capacity has placed serious limitations on them. The bureaucracy involved in accessing foster care grants further hinders relatives.

The National Integrated Plan for Children Affected and Infected by HIV/Aids has still to come to fruition, despite the Cabinet’s approval for funding. Child-headed households have become the order of the day, which merely increases the amount of malnutrition and school drop-out rates. How many more Nkosi Johnsons must we have before our Government finally acts? [Interjections.]

The introduction of the child support grant excludes all needy children who happen to be older than seven years old. As a result, children are rendered vulnerable to the tragic consequences of dire poverty. The Government explained that the new grants would reach more children. Ironically, only 10% of the estimated 3 million children targeted actually receive those grants. The recent R10 increase in the grants, the first in three years, will, in real terms, only buy one extra loaf of bread a month.

All South Africans have the moral responsibility to reduce child poverty, since the Government proves incapable of doing so. The attack on poverty begins with the realisation that child rights begin here. To create a child- centred society, we need to give life to the Convention on the Rights of the Child.

Let us not waste any of our vigour on meaningless, symbolic gestures. There is too much that we need to do. Let us take meaningful steps to change the situation. Let us draw on the courage shown by Nkosi. There are too many things that each one of us can do. We can call on our local children’s home and volunteer our services; we can give a toy, make a donation, hold a baby or even wipe a snotty nose. Every little gesture will make a difference. [Interjections.] Our actions will make a world of difference.

Mphe ngwana, o mphe motho. [Give me a child and you have given me a person.]

Let us make the agenda of our children, the agenda of Government.

Nkosi, hamba kahle mfowethu. [Nkosi, rest in peace brother.][Applause.]

Mr N J GOGOTYA: Mr Chairperson, on a point of order: Is it parliamentary for the hon member, in view of our history, and the fact that most adult blacks today were reared by single parents because of the migrant labour laws and forced removals of the previous government that he was part of, suddenly to be a champion …

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! Hon member, that may be a point of contention or a point of debate, but it cannot be a point of order.

Ms A VAN WYK: Chairperson, I would like to start off by quoting John Wayne:

… tomorrow is the most important thing in life. Comes into us at midnight, very clean. It is perfect when it arrives and it puts itself in our hands. It hopes that we have learned something from yesterday.

For me the tomorrow that John Wayne refers to in this quote is the children of the world. Indeed, when they enter life they do so clean and pure, untouched by the influences of and the exposures to the bad of society. Yes, they put themselves into our hands. They trust us to lead them through life and all its challenges. They hope that we have learned enough from yesterday so that we can make it through today and build with them tomorrow.

We are tomorrow’s past. When today’s children one day reflect on their life as children, we will be the past. The question that we need to ask ourselves here today is: What kind of tomorrow is it that all of us are creating for today’s children to live? Every action and decision that we take today will affect the tomorrow of our children, just as the decision that was taken in this House in 1997 affects the lives of thousands of children today. Today, when looking back at that decision, we cannot claim that it was a decision in the best interest of the children of South Africa.

On 1 April 1997, a decision was taken to do away with state maintenance grants for children. The argument was that it only benefited certain sectors of society and was one of the discriminatory practices of the past that needed to go. Research later revealed that this was not actually the case, and that it was only the old homelands that did not benefit from these grants.

It is currently estimated that 233 927 children are the victims of this decision. Almost half of these children are in two provinces, the Western Cape with 65 000 and the Eastern Cape with 49 126. The practical result of this decision is that families without a breadwinner in the house now depend on the old-age grants in order to provide for education, food and basic requirements for survival.

We would like to appeal to the Minister of Social Development to reconsider this decision. There are two options, either to reintroduce this grant or to expand the child support grant so that it also caters for children older than seven years of age.

Every time we leave the precincts of Parliament for the warmth of our houses and hear a knock on the car window from a young homeless child who will spend a night out in the winter cold, hungry and with no hope for a better tomorrow, we should ask ourselves what we did today to change the prospects of that child’s tomorrow. The UDM believes with James Agee that: In every child who is born, under no matter what circumstances, and of no matter what parents, the potentiality of the human race is born again; and in him, too, once more, and of each of us, our terrific responsibility toward human life …

[Applause.]

Mrs R M SOUTHGATE: Chairperson, today is International Children’s Day and the ACDP congratulates those children who have achieved success in one form or another, but more especially those who, under adverse conditions, emerged as victors by overcoming the temptation of drugs, alcohol, sexual exploitation and abuse.

Although we are surrounded by many cases of success, we have the majority of our children living in a sea of hopelessness and potential danger. Our children are under siege and are facing fears and unprecedented challenges, ones that may threaten their very existence.

Waronice van Wyk, who, at the age of 10, worked on a farm earning R3 a week, is today, at the age of 12 and after an accident, disabled for life. She is just one of the statistics of many cases of child exploitation. Our Constitution, in Chapter 2 section 28, declares that every child has the right to be protected from maltreatment, abuse, neglect, degradation and all forms of exploitation. Yet Government is the engineer of the problems that we are experiencing through the legalisation of gambling, prostitution, pornography and shebeens, the establishment of red-light districts and the promotion of sex tourism.

Exposing the innocence of our children to this degradation is socially irresponsible. This undermines the authority of parents, the ones most responsible for instilling the first level of governance in the child - a sense of right and wrong. The ACDP’s policy on children and childcare is firmly rooted in the family, which is regarded as the most basic unit for human and social development.

Between January and December 1998, 40 000 cases of child abuse were reported. I am told that we can triple this amount. Eighty-nine per cent of these cases occur within the family. Only 7,4% of offenders receive a prison sentence, and 20,4% a fine, suspended sentence or correctional service, and some of the others are just floating around. We need to protect our children. [Interjections.] We can never overlook the evil. Never! [Interjections.] [Time expired.]

Mrs W S NEWHOUDT-DRUCHEN: Chairperson, members of Parliament, I give my speech in honour of the guests in the gallery today. [Applause.] It is a special day for them because today we are celebrating International Children’s Day. They have been invited to celebrate this day with us here in Parliament. I hope, so far, they feel welcome in this place.

The children today might not have had the same experiences or might be too young to have had these experiences, and many of them may only have heard what happened in our history. Under the apartheid regime, many of us boycotted our classes. We marched against inferior education. Many of us were beaten by the police. We were shot, and put into jail without our parents knowing where we were.

Many of us were abused, and some members of Parliament who are sitting here went through that. They went to jail, leaving small children behind at home and not knowing what was happening to them. Many children died while these members were in prison, and many of these members do not know where their children have been buried. Many of us never experienced a childhood because of the apartheid era, and that is something we do not want for our children.

The United Nations is a place in New York where many countries come together and discuss various issues. They declared the years 1990 to 2000 the decade for children.

South Africa only became liberated in 1994 and we all voted for the first time in history. Our former President, Nelson Mandela, made a commitment and developed a National Plan of Action, and that vision of the National Plan of Action was to put children first. [Applause.] Their work is to promote and protect the rights of all children in South Africa.

One year later, in 1995, South Africa ratified the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child, and recognised the rights of the child in respect of education, so that the Government could provide education and lobby for opportunities.

We reported to the UN on 1997 to 2000, and the UN was impressed with this report. It was the first time that a senior Minister, not a junior representative, represented our President. We also ratified the Organisation of African Unity’s African Charter on the Rights and Welfare of the Child in 1999.

Yes, our Government in South Africa and the governments of other African countries are looking after children, and are making sure that we protect our future leaders. Today our Government is making sure that we improve the lot of our children. It is making sure that it, together with hon members, has the interests of children at heart. Let me give hon members an example. The National Plan of Action was initiated by the Department of Health. It moved to the Deputy President’s Office, and then to the President’s Office. That shows how important the office for children is.

The OSC, which is the Office on the Status of Children, is in the President’s Office. It makes sure that it monitors the rights of children and promotes their protection. It makes sure that issues of children’s rights are mainstreamed in every Government department.

In this Parliament, we have the Joint Monitoring Committee on Improvement of Quality of Life and Status of Children, Youth and Disabled Persons. This committee monitors, oversees and evaluates programmes of various Government departments.

Our theme today is: ``Hear our children, hear our voices,’’ and I want to say, yes we hear their voices, and what they are saying. This morning we have heard what they said. To the deaf children, I want to say, yes, I saw their hands and I will make sure that their hands are seen and that their language is understood in this Parliament. [Applause.]

We hear and read about abuse and crimes committed against children. We have the Human Rights Watch, which reports on violence and abuse against girl children. Children need protection and have the right to it. They must report to their teachers and parents all the crimes that are committed against them. They must talk to people who they feel safe with, and not keep quiet. They must talk to organisations such as, for example, the Child Protection Unit. They must call Childline if they need to talk to someone. We cannot but condemn child abuse.

I would like to repeat what our President said: … no African child should ever again walk in fear of guns, tyrants and abuse; that no African child should ever again experience hunger, avoidable disease and ignorance; that no African child should ever again feel ashamed to be an African.

[Applause.] All of them should feel proud to be South Africans. We, as the ANC, will continue with our work to make a better life for all, including children. We need a better life for our children. [Applause.]

Dr C P MULDER: Geagte Voorsitter, dit is vir my ‘n voorreg om vandag te kan deelneem aan hierdie belangrike debat op Internasionale Kinderdag. Dit bly vir my egter jammer dat mense vandag selfs hierdie onderwerp kom misbruik om te probeer om partypolitiek te maak. Ek dink dit is heeltemal onvanpas. Ek is jammer dat dit gebeur. Selfs die agb lid wat so pas oor apartheid en die verlede tekere gegaan het, as daardie rigting gevat moet word, dan kan ek ook vandag oor die regering se beleid van regstellende aksie praat en die gevolg daarvan op blanke kinders. Dit is onvanpas en ek dink die situasie is verkeerd gelees. Aan die einde van die dag kan mens hierdie saak baie ingewikkeld maak, maar dit is eintlik nie so ingewikkeld nie. Dit is eintlik baie eenvoudig. [Tussenwerpsels.]

Dit is jammer dat die ANC-lede nie belangstel in wat mens wil sê as mens praat oor kinders nie. Dit is baie jammer. [Tussenwerpsels.] Hierdie is eintlik ‘n baie eenvoudige saak. Dit gaan oor kinders en kinders is ‘n eenvoudige saak, want aan die einde van die dag wil kinders net een ding hê en dit is onvoorwaardelike liefde van hul ouers. Dit is al wat hulle nodig het en regtig vra.

Daarom wil ek stilstaan by een artikel in die Konvensie, naamlik artikel 18, wat die klem lê op ouers, daardie mense wat die grootste verantwoordelikheid het vir die ontwikkeling en versorging van kinders. Ek dink dit is geweldige belangrik. Ons in die VF voel baie sterk daaroor en ons wil graag sien dat hierdie regering maatreëls sal tref om met baie sterker, ingrypender strawwe te kom in alle gevalle waar daar misdrywe gepleeg word teenoor kinders. Kinders is die weerloostes wat daar is, wat beskerming nodig het van ‘n regering. Dit is daarom dat dit noodsaaklik is.

Ten slotte: Kinders val nie uit die lug uit nie. Elke kind het ‘n pa en ‘n ma. Daarom wil ek vandag sê dat alle pa’s in Suid-Afrika vandag se grootste geskenk aan hulle kinders is net een ding: Om vir die ma’s van hul kinders lief te wees. [Applous.] (Tranlation of Afrikaans speech follows.)

[Dr C P MULDER: Hon Chairperson, it is a privilege for me to be able to participate today in this important debate on International Children’s Day. However, I feel it is a pity that people even came and abused this topic today in an attempt to play party politics. I think that that is entirely inappropriate. I am sorry that it happens. Even the hon member who has just raged on about apartheid and the past, if that direction must be taken, I could then also today talk about the Government’s policy of affirmative action and the consequence thereof for white children. It is inappropriate and I think the situation has been incorrectly read. At the end of the day one can make this matter very complicated, but it is actually not so complicated. It is actually very simple. [Interjections.]

It is a pity that the ANC members are not interested in what one wants to say when one talks about children. That is a great pity. [Interjections.] This is actually a very simple matter. It deals with children and children are a simple matter, because at the end of the day children only want one thing and that is unconditional love from their parents. That is all they need and truly ask for.

I therefore want to pause at one article in the Convention, namely article 18, which places the emphasis on parents, those people who have the greatest responsibility for the development and care of children. I think this is tremendously important. We in the FF feel very strongly about it and we would like to see this Government take measures to introduce harsher, more drastic punishments in all cases where crimes are committed against children. Children are the most vulnerable members of society, who need protection from a government. That is why it is essential.

In conclusion: Children do not simply fall from the sky. Every child has a mother and a father. I therefore want to say today that the biggest gift that all fathers in South Africa can give to their children is simply one thing: To love the mothers of their children. [Applause.]]

Mr P H K DITSHETELO: Chairperson, the significance of children in any society is expressed in the way that society views and treats its own children. History has shown that for decade after decade children have struggled for survival in our societies and have been constantly afflicted by ill-treatment and abuse. There have been times when nations of the world have taken stock of how children should be protected and nurtured in an environment conducive to their development to live simply as children, not as young adults. The UN, which represents the world’s nations, came up with the children’s charter, stating clearly the significance of children in any society. The charter emphasises that children should not be involved indirectly in …

Mr D V BLOEM: Voorsitter, op ‘n punt van order: ek wil graag weet of dit parlementêr is vir ‘n agb lid is om na ‘n ander lid te verwys as ‘n raasgat'' oflawaaigat’’. [Chairperson, on a point of order: I would like to know whether it is parliamentary for an hon member to refer to another member as a raasgat'' orlawaaigat’’ [windbag].]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Hon member, I can only rule if the member who is at the podium made that remark. As for what happens between you across the Chamber, unless you know who it is that said that, the Chair is not in the position to follow that. Mr Ditshetelo may continue.

Mr P H K DITSHETELO: The charter was adopted many years ago. Today we are in a new millennium. Is there any change and improvement in the manner in which our children are being protected and allowed to be children? I do not think so. In South Africa, and indeed throughout the world, in nations both rich and poor, children continue to be abused and denied their rights of existence by both governments and parents.

Jaaka re keteka letsatsi la bana mo Aforika Borwa, re tshwanetse go lemoga gore go na le bana bangwe ba ba senang dijo le marobalo. Re tshwanetse gape go lemoga gore ngwana ke ngwana, ka bangwe mo lefatsheng ba newa ditlhobolo tse di bokete tsa ntwa jaaka di AK-47, boemong jwa ditshamekisiwa. Re itirela boikuelo mo Pusong ya rona ya Aforika Borwa go sekaseka go sekisa mongwe le mongwe yo o fitlhelwang a tshwara bana makgwakgwa. A re bontsheng lerato gore ngwana sejo o a tlhakanelwa, ga a tshwanelwa fela ke motsadi ka botsadi jwa madi. (Translation of Setswana paragraph follows.)

[As we celebrate Children’s Day in South Africa, we should take note of the fact that there are some children who do not have food and shelter. We should also realise that a child is a child, because of some people in the world who give them heavy guns such as AK-47s instead of toys. We are appealing to our Government of South Africa to consider prosecuting anybody who is caught abusing children. Let us show love and prove that a child is everybody’s responsibility and not that of the biological parents only.]

Dr S E M PHEKO: Chairperson, International Children’s Day must not be a mere annual ritual. It must be a challenge to each country to assess whether its children’s rights are or are not protected. Children are the future and pride of every nation. No nation can survive without children.

Every child, urban or rural, boy or girl, has the right to health and nutrition, a good quality of basic education, equality and protection from economic exploitation and dangerous labour, and a right to a name and nationality. There have been some gains for children in our country. These are the reduction of communicable diseases such as polio, free health services for children under five years and legislation which protects children against abuse.

But we cannot afford to be complacent. Children in the rural areas are not well cared for. They travel long distances to acquire education and medical care. They are among the poorest and subjected to high child mortality. Most tragic is that when they grow up, they die young because of HIV/Aids.

Our country and others in Africa and in the world at large, must ensure that all infants begin life in good health and their school education at the age of 5 years. We must actively assist Unicef in various ways to fulfil its mandate of promoting and protecting the rights of the child. The PAC wishes all the children of the world good health and a bright future.

Miss S RAJBALLY: Chairperson, Minister and our children, the MF believes that children should not only be seen, but also heard. Therefore, International Children’s Day was introduced to allow children as much equal rights as any other person. This was reiterated in 1994 by former President Nelson Mandela, who emphasised the commitment of the South African Government to a comprehensive programme to ensure that the children in our country grow up in a secure family life.

The MF is content to note that section 28(1) of the South African Constitution and the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child provide that the child should, from birth, be protected from labour exploitation and abuse and be given access to health care and legal rights.

It is sad to watch society degenerating and producing more paedophiles and psychopaths to commit crimes against innocent children. In KwaZulu-Natal alone, two such cases were reported in the Indian community. The MF recommends that more stringent measures be taken to prevent any form of abuse and exploitation of children.

According to a case worker at Childline: ``If you had to make a full list of all children who have been raped or sexually abused in KwaZulu-Natal, you would run out of paper.’’ The MF recommends that there be more life skills and educational programmes for parents and children, based on abuse, exploitation and children’s rights, and coping strategies should be taught in order for them to deal with any incident that they may encounter.

The MF also recommends that victims undergo intensive therapy to cope with post-traumatic stress disorder and that perpetrators attend rehabilitation programmes and therapy, as they need to figure out where they went wrong in their lives.

The MF supports International Children’s Day and believes that we should always act in the best interests of our children. God bless our children - the leaders of tomorrow. We love them. [Applause.]

Mnr C AUCAMP: Mevrou die Speaker, twee mense kan wêrelde van mekaar verskil, hetsy kultureel of polities, maar as hulle oor hul kinders praat, is daar die gemeenskaplike band van warmte, van sorg en van diep emosionele gewaarwordinge.

Ek wil vandag net op een saak van belang vir ons kinders konsentreer, naamlik ‘n veilige omgewing. Besef die Huis watter vernietigende effek het misdaad en onrus op ons kinders? Ek wil graag twee gedeeltes uit die Bybel aanhaal. In Psalm 144 bid die koning vir sy land en sy volk. In vers 12 en 13 bid hy:

Gee dat ons seuns sal wees soos plante wat opgekweek is in hul jeug; ons dogters soos hoekpilare, uitgebeitel na die boustyl van ‘n paleis.

Direk daarna sê hy:

Gee dat daar geen bres in ons mure sal wees nie en geen geskreeu op ons pleine nie.

Dit beteken ons kinders kan alleen tot volle wasdom en groei kom as ons stadsmure veilig is en ons pleine rustig is. Kan ons ons indink watter vernietigende effek misdaad, geweld en onrus en verkragting en bendebedreiging op ons kinders het?

Die ander gedeelte kom uit Saggaria 8, waar die Here voorspoed en vrede vir die terugkerende ballinge beloof, dan sê hy:

Daar sal weer ou manne en vroue op die pleine van Jerusalem wees, elkeen met sy kierie in sy hand. Die pleine van die stad sal vol wees van seuntjies en dogtertjies wat daarop speel.

Die sorgvrye, onbekommerde lewe waar oumense rustig kan sit, kindertjies onbevange kan speel, is ons aan ons kinders verskuldig. Dit is my bydrae tot hierdie debat. Kom ons maak weer van Suid-Afrika en van die wêreld ‘n veilige hawe vir ons kinders. Ons soek ons kinders nie agter veiligheidstralies nie. Ons soek hulle nie ingehok en afgesper en bedreig nie. Ons soek hulle nie waar hulle self moet wegkruip saam met jeugbendemaats vir die polisie nie. Ons soek hulle nie waar hulle geteister word deur dwelmhandelaars nie. Ons smag weer na ‘n vrye, onbevange lewe, waar ‘n kind weer waarlik kind kan wees, uitgelate en vry. Ons smag weer na die stem van kindergelag op ons pleine en in ons woonbuurte. Dan sal dit goedgaan met Suid-Afrika. [Applous.] (Translation of Afrikaans speech follows.)

[Mr C AUCAMP: Madam Speaker, two people may be worlds apart culturally or politically, but when they talk about their children there is a common bond of warmth, care and deep emotional feelings.

I want to concentrate today on only one matter of interest in respect of our children, and that is a safe environment. Does the House realise what a destructive effect crime and unrest have on our children? I would like to quote two excepts from the Bible. In Psalm 144 the king prays for his country and his people. In verses 12 and 13 he prays:

That our sons may be as plants grown up in their youth; that our daughters may be as pillars, sculptured in palace style …

Directly afterwards the psalmist says:

That there be no breaking in or going out; that there be no outcry in our streets.

This means that our children can only develop to their full potential when our city walls are safe and our streets are peaceful. Can we imagine what a destructive effect crime, violence and unrest and rape and gang violence have on our children? The other except is from Zachariah 8, where the Lord promises prosperity and peace to the returning exiles, and He says:

Old men and old women shall again sit in the streets of Jerusalem, each one with his staff in his hand … The streets of the city shall be full of boys and girls playing in its streets.

A carefree, untroubled life, where the elderly can sit peacefully, and children can play without hindrance, is what we owe our children. This is my contribution to this debate. Let us once again make South Africa and the world a safe haven for our children. We do not want to see our children behind safety bars. We do not want to see them caged in and isolated and threatened. We do not want to see them hiding from the police with their youth gang friends. We do not want to see them being pestered by drug dealers. We long once again for a free, untroubled life, where a child can truly be a child, happy and free. We long for the sound of children’s laughter in our streets and in our residential areas. Then all will be well in South Africa. [Applause.]]

The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY: Madam Speaker, may I again, as we did earlier this morning, welcome all our children to Parliament. I hope that they will have a good time later on during fun time.

Something happened this morning in the Old Assembly Chamber, when a number of Ministers were there making some presentations. I want to quote two things. The one is a poem read by a young man and the other is a kind of plea from a young girl who attends Acasia Park primary school. This poem is titled: ``I am your tomorrow’’ and is by Mr Masamane, if I am not mistaken.

It says, and I quote:

I am your tomorrow. Breathe life into children’s lives. Do not abuse us, teach us how to defend ourselves. Do not punish us, teach us what is right or wrong. I am your tomorrow. Breathe life into children’s lives. Do not hate us, teach us how to love. Do not demoralise us, show us how to reach our dreams, for we are your tomorrow.

[Applause.] The other one is from Nokwanda Mkhwanazi, whose mother works in this Parliament. I am not sure whether the mother was there when she read this to us. I will read just two or three extracts:

When we get to school, we want to feel safe and not scared. We want to ask our teachers questions without fear. We do not want to feel ashamed when we do not understand what the teacher is saying. We do not want teachers to beat or to scream at us.

We feel safe when the classes are clean and warm in winter and cool in summer. We feel safe when there are separate and clean toilets for girls and boys. We feel safe when nobody touches our bodies at school. We feel safe when we can run and tell teachers and other adults at school if there are people who touch us or beat us.

They are both sitting in the audience, and I would like to thank them very much for these very beautiful, moving words. [Applause.]

I would like to thank all the speakers, except one, for the very positive contribution that they have made today. Out of my respect and love for children, I am not going to respond to that negative speaker. What all of the other speakers said is, to me, a demonstration that it is possible for us to rise above party politics and address issues of national concern in a way in which we indicate not only to the children of our country, but to the rest of the population, that it is possible for Parliament to rise above party politics and address national issues and national concerns in a national way. Therefore I want to thank all of the speakers here today who participated in this debate.

1 June marks not only International Children’s Day, but the start of a very significant month. This year we are going to have a debate on that in Parliament, since 16 June will be the 25th anniversary of the 1976 Soweto uprising, a bloody but heroic moment engraved in our country’s history as none other. It is also Child Protection Week in South Africa, a time when we educate our people about issues of child abuse and neglect. Therefore one could say that today is not Children’s Day, but also the first day of Children’s Month.

We come together to celebrate children and childhood and to take heed of our achievements and challenges. We have never seen a celebration like this in Parliament before. Let me assure Madam Speaker and all her officials, that this is the first of many.

We are here to say that we are embarking on an ongoing and sustainable public awareness campaign to educate parents, communities and children about what it means to protect, respect and promote children’s lives. I want to draw hon members’ attention to two reports, the Report on the State of the Nation Report on Children and the end-of-the-decade report, which were launched this morning.

I want to draw attention to these reports as they are milestone reports in this country, giving us a picture of every aspect of a child’s life, regardless of gender, race, geographical location or economic standing. Never before have we seen this kind of information gathered in one place at one reference point. I encourage all hon members to engage with the material in these reports.

I would also like to say that we in Parliament, and certainly those of us in Government, want to pay very special attention to the poorest of the poor, and that is a disabled African child who lives in a rural area. We have heard from two MPs who suffer from disabilities. I think it is a matter of great pride to all of us that we have more people with disabilities in this Parliament than any other parliament in the world. [Applause.] It is not a hope, but a commitment that we must make, and that includes all parties here, following the 2004 elections, at least to try to double the number of people with disabilities that we have in this Parliament. [Applause.]

It is important to contextualise both these reports and take note of where we have come from. All of us who fought for freedom suffered the brutalities of the apartheid regime. I think in many ways children suffered the worst. Some paid for freedom with their lives, others were unlawfully jailed under appalling conditions. Many lost parents and family members and others suffered the insults of the Bantu education system.

We all have haunting memories from our recent past, and we are still dealing with the aftermath of a society that has been demeaned, brutalised and stripped of its dignity. [Interjections.]

An HON MEMBER: Leave the politics alone.

The MINISTER: What they are saying on that side now, and I hear this as I have a second ear, is: ``Leave the politics alone.’’ If one cannot live with the past, one will never be able to do something about the future. [Interjections.] [Applause.]

Mr D H M GIBSON: Now you are being the bogeyman again. You are going to frighten the children in the gallery.

The MINISTER: It is a shameful past. [Interjections.] Apartheid was declared a crime against humanity by the United Nations. Hon members cannot sit here and deny it. [Interjections.]

We defeated apartheid and now we must focus our energies on other challenges which are having a devastating impact on our children and people. Our children suffer the most, and they feel the brunt of poverty.

Mr G B D MCINTOSH: Now you are talking sense!

The MINISTER: Who said that?

Mr G B D MCINTOSH: I did. We are talking about the future now.

The MINISTER: Minister Kasrils once told us about what the hon McIntosh did, and how he got mixed up when he went to his own meeting on the water issue. Do not be thoroughly mixed up all the time. [Interjections.] [Laughter.] [Applause.]

HIV/Aids is having a devastating impact on our society, and on children. Infants born to HIV-positive mothers may become infected. Adolescents, particularly girls, are extremely vulnerable to the disease. The responsibility of caring for sick or dying family members often falls on the children in the family. Children orphaned by Aids not only face the trauma of bereavement, but also the likelihood of poverty with the loss of a breadwinner.

In order to prevent racism, we as adults must be aware of the prejudices that we carry, and the ways in which we pass them on, consciously or subconsciously, to our children. South Africa has come a long way since

1. In 1995 we ratified the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child, the most ratified convention in history. In 2000 we ratified the OAU Charter on the Rights and Welfare of the Child, which stresses both those aspects. South Africa has ratified a number of other protocols and conventions, such as ILO Convention 182, which looks at the worst forms of child labour.

We are also in the process of drafting the Millennium African Recovery Programme, or Marp, Africa’s own document of renewal, that will be presented to and discussed with African leaders next month. We intend to make sure that issues of children’s rights, particularly the issue of children in armed conflicts, which is not an issue for us in South Africa, but is clearly a huge issue for many of Africa’s children, is strongly on the Marp agenda.

By signing and ratifying the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child and the OAU Charter, we are accepting responsibility as a Government and country to report to the respective agencies. Last year we had a very constructive dialogue with the UN committee on the CRC. From reports given to us, it was highly appreciated by UN members. What was said to us was that South Africa was leading the way in terms of reporting, and that South Africa had one of the most effective national programmes of action for children in the world. [Applause.] We have a number of reporting mechanisms in place through the NPA.

Yesterday evening in the NCOP we discussed ways in which to strengthen provincial and local monitoring and reporting structures. We are committed to these national and international processes, as we see them as a way to monitor whether the rights of children have been realised.

As I mentioned in my last Vote, we have embarked on a public awareness campaign on children’s rights. Our aim is to achieve effective service delivery for all children. To do that we need to develop a culture in which children’s rights are promoted and respected. That is our objective in this public awareness campaign, not only to inform the public about children’s rights, but through this campaign we want to reach out to the poorest of the poor, and provide them with services that will alleviate their plight. We strongly feel that the rights of children should be directly linked to child-friendly service delivery. As members know, we have also launched a children’s rights media code, and I ask each and every parliamentarian to endorse this code on their way out of the National Assembly. In closing, let me again stress that today is a day on which we celebrate childhood, but, more importantly, it is also a day on which we challenge the whole nation to acknowledge that children have rights, and to commit ourselves to hearing the voices of children in all spheres of their lives. William Wordsworth said: ``The child is father of the man.’’ In his days he spoke about man, but in our days we also speak about women, of course. In this sense, we are all our children. Their interests are identical to ours. But, indeed, they are more important than us. They do need special care.

Above all, in a country which is blessed with gold, diamonds, platinum, with almost every other important mineral that we can think of, let me say this to the children: For all of us here in Parliament, our most treasured asset is not our minerals, but you, our children! [Applause.]

The SPEAKER: Hon members, I was privileged to spend a brief time with children in the Old Assembly Chamber this morning, and the messages coming out of them are the ones that we do need to hear. I am sure your words here have also addressed some of the issues raised. We are the representatives of the children of South Africa, all the children, regardless of who their parents and grandparents are, or where they are. This House represents the children of South Africa, and we need to listen to what the children have said. We need to invest in children. We need to protect the children. I think those are the messages.

But the message coming out there was: Hear our voices. In this House we talk, and we also have ears. I want to recommend that we pay heed to the messages that have been coming out and act on them in everything we do, so that, not as a specific programme, but in all our policy and in all the legislation we take on board, as I said before, is the investment we have to make as a nation in the children of South Africa.

Debate concluded.

The House adjourned at 12:51. ____

            ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS

ANNOUNCEMENTS:

National Assembly:

1. The Speaker:

 The following changes have been made to the membership of Committees,
 viz:


 Agriculture and Land Affairs:


 Appointed: Schoeman, E A (Alt).


 Education:


 Appointed: Ntuli, S B.


 Health:


 Appointed: Luthuli, A N (Alt).


 Improvement of Quality of Life and Status of Children, Youth and
 Disabled Persons:


 Appointed: Duma, N M (Alt); Ndzanga, R.


 Improvement of Quality of Life and Status of Women:


 Appointed: Luthuli, A N.


 Private Members' Legislative Proposals and Special Petitions:


 Appointed: Maimane, D S.


 Social Development:


 Discharged: Gandhi, E.


 Sport and Recreation:


 Appointed: Schoeman, E A (Alt).

1. The Speaker:

 The following members have been appointed to serve on the Ad Hoc
 Committee on Powers and Privileges of Parliament, viz:
 Bakker, D M; Blanché, J P I; Botha, N G W; Cassim, M F; Chikane, M M;
 Chohan, F I; De Lange, J H; De Lille, P; Eglin, C W; Gaum, A H; Goniwe,
 M T; Hajaij, F (Alt); Hangana, N E; Hendrickse, P A C (Alt); Landers, L
 T; Lobe, M C; Mahlangu, M J; Makwetla, S P; Maseka, J T; Masutha, M T;
 Mofokeng, T R; Mokaba, P R; Nkosi, D M (Alt); Rajbally, S; Solomon, G
 (Alt); Sonjica, B P; Southgate, R M.

1. The Speaker:

 The following papers have been tabled and are now referred to the
 relevant committees as mentioned below:


 (1)    The following papers are referred to the Standing Committee on
     Public Accounts for consideration and report and to the Portfolio
     Committee on Finance for information:


     (a)     Report of the Auditor-General on Border Post Control [RP
          43-2001].


     (b)     Report of the Auditor-General on Selected Internal Control
          Measures over Taxation Process administered by the South
          African Revenue Service [RP 44-2001].


 (2)    The following papers are referred to the Portfolio Committee on
     Minerals and Energy:


     (a)     Agreement between the Government of the Republic of South
          Africa and the Government of the Republic of Mozambique
          concerning Natural Gas Trade between South Africa and
          Mozambique, tabled in terms of section 231(3) of the
          Constitution, 1996.


     (b)     Explanatory Memorandum to the Agreement.


 (3)    The following papers are referred to the Standing Committee on
     Public Accounts for consideration and report and to the Portfolio
     Committee on Agriculture and Land Affairs for information:


     (a)     Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements
          of the South African Wool Board for the period 1 July 1997 to
          30 June 1999 [RP 38-2001].
     (b)     Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements
          of the National Agricultural Marketing Council for 1999-2000
          [RP 64-2001].


 (4)    The following paper is referred to the Portfolio Committee on
     Education:


     Education in South Africa - Achievements since 1994.


 (5)    The following paper is referred to the Portfolio Committee on
     Water Affairs and Forestry:


     Report and Financial Statements of the Goudveld Water for 1999-
     2000.


 (6)    The following paper is referred to the Portfolio Committee on
     Sport and Recreation:


     Report of the Department of Sport and Recreation for 1999-2000.


 (7)    The following paper is referred to the Standing Committee on
     Public Accounts for consideration and report and to the Portfolio
     Committee on Safety and Security for information:


     Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements of Vote
     29 - South African Police Service and the Secretariat for Safety
     and Security for 1999-2000 and Performance Audits of Human
     Resource Management and the Management of the Central Firearms
     Register [RP 138-2000].


 (8)    The following paper is referred to the Standing Committee on
     Public Accounts for consideration and report and to the Portfolio
     Committee on Foreign Affairs for information:


     Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements of Vote
     13 - Foreign Affairs for 1999-2000 [RP 122-2000].


 (9)    The following paper is referred to the Standing Committee on
     Public Accounts for consideration and report and to the Portfolio
     Committee on Communications for information:


     Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements of Vote
     6 - Communications for 1999-2000 [RP 115-2000].

TABLINGS:

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces:

Papers:

1. The Speaker and the Chairperson:

 (1)    Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements of
     Vote 8 - Correctional Services for 1999-2000 including a
     Performance Audit for Training [RP 117-2000].


     Referred to the Standing Committee on Public Accounts for
     consideration and report and to the Portfolio Committee on
     Correctional Services for information.


 (2)    Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements of
     Vote 7 - Constitutional Development (now Provincial and Local
     Government) for 1999-2000 [RP 116-2000].


     Referred to the Standing Committee on Public Accounts for
     consideration and report and to the Portfolio Committee on
     Provincial and Local Government for information.

COMMITTEE REPORTS:

National Assembly:

1. Second Report of the Standing Committee on Public Accounts, dated 30 May 2001:

 A.     Introduction


     In its Fourteenth Report for 2000 to the National Assembly, the
     Standing Committee on Public Accounts placed before the House
     matters relating to the Strategic Defence Package procurement. The
     Committee indicated that it would be presenting a further report
     on these matters to the House early in 2001. This Report would
     therefore cover the following areas in particular:


     *  Progress with the investigation.


     *  Interaction with the Ministers.


     *  Engagement with correspondence from the Leader of Government
       Business.


     Since the adoption by the House of the Committee's Fourteenth
     Report on 3 November 2000, there has also been extensive
     interaction between the Committee, the House and the Executive, as
     well as a progress report (First Report for 2001) tabled in the
     National Assembly on 4 April 2001. This interaction raised matters
     relating both to the substance of the matters raised in the
     Fourteenth Report as well as issues relevant to interaction
     between the Executive and the Legislature.  The Committee reports
     on these matters, as follows:


 B.     Joint Investigating Team


     On 7 February 2001 the Committee met with the Joint Investigating
     Team. During this interaction, the latter presented a written
     report and answered questions posed by the Committee. The
     following emerged from this interaction:


     1. The Joint Investigating Team, which comprises the Auditor-
          General's Office, the Public Protector and the Investigative
          Directorate of Serious Economic Offences (IDSEO) was formed to
          investigate the matter after the exploratory meeting convened
          by the Committee on 13 November 2000.


     2. An investigation charter, giving a clear description of the
          Joint Investigating Team's functions, modus operandi and other
          relevant detail pertaining to that Team, was compiled by the
          Auditor-General, after the above agencies had held meetings on
          16 November and 1 December 2000.


     3. The skills, legal mandates and resources of the different
          agencies have been effectively facilitated. The Joint
          Investigating Team currently consists of the following core
          members, who have been allocated to the Team:


          (a) Three members from the Auditor-General's Office (two
              chartered accountants and one advocate).


          (b) Five members from IDSEO/Scorpions (two advocates and three
              investigators).


          (c) Two senior investigators from the Public Protector's
              Office (one advocate and one attorney - one of them with
              military expertise).


          Additional resources will be made available from the different
          agencies as and when required.


     4. The Joint Investigating Team has assured the Committee that
          they command all the skills and legal mandates needed to
          ensure a comprehensive and credible investigation.
     5. The following expertise will be contracted to assist with the
          investigation:


          (a) Chartered accountants and auditors.


          (b) Forensic auditors/accountants.


          (c) Legal expertise.


          (d) Technical experts (naval and aeronautical).


          It has been decided to make use of outside audit firms with
          the necessary skills and international contacts. The cost of
          these contracts will be borne and recovered by the Auditor-
          General.


     6. Broad framework of investigation


          (a) Investigation of alleged irregularities


              *    Documentation from the various departments,
                Parliament and the Cabinet has been requested.
              *    The statutory records of 68 entities have been
                requested.


              *    Three audit firms of specific companies have been
                summonsed for documentation.


              *    Some informal interviews have already been
                conducted.


              *    One formal questioning has been conducted.


              *    The bank statements/information of 24 entities and
                individuals have been requested.


              *    A proposal has been received from an audit firm with
                respect to the compilation of company structures, the
                flow of funds between bank accounts and the capacity of
                the entities.


          (b) Other areas to be investigated


              *    Cost to the State of the Grippen and Hawk deals.


              *    Selection of prime contractors for the LIFT
                programme (Hawk).


              *    Selection of subcontractors for all the programmes.


              *    Review of Defence/Armscor procurement procedures and
                regulations.


              *    Review of all final contracts (NIP and DIP).


              *    Independence of role-players.


          In view of the nature and extent of the investigation, the
          Joint Investigating Team has agreed to produce a report to
          Parliament towards the end of July 2001.


          The Committee is satisfied that the forensic investigation is
          under way, and the Committee will continue to monitor its
          progress through regular interactions with the Team. The
          Committee expresses full confidence in the capacity and
          integrity of the three agencies comprising the Team. The
          Committee's inability to issue an investigation brief, flowing
          from its Fourteenth Report, is because of the constitutional
          provisions, which stipulate separate and independent legal
          mandates for each of the agencies.


          Given that the Team will comprehensively investigate the areas
          listed above, the Committee will report on the areas not
          specifically covered by the Team.


 C.     Inclusion/exclusion of Special Investigation Unit (SIU)


     The exploratory meeting of 13 November decided on a follow-up
     meeting. This meeting never took place. The views therefore
     contained in the letter from the chairperson of the Committee to
     the President, dated 8 December 2000, requesting a proclamation
     for the inclusion of the SIU headed by Judge W Heath, was arrived
     at without due consideration by the Committee of the final
     composition of the Team. Although this request had the support of
     the Joint Investigating Team, it was made without the Committee
     having applied its mind to the matter or to the constitutional
     court finding relating to the SIU.


     The Committee, having considered the contents of the Fourteenth
     Report, as well as subsequent events and interactions, resolved on
     28 February 2001 that there was no recommendation to include the
     SIU in the Team. This view is supported by the Parliamentary Law
     Advisers' memorandum of 8 January 2001 and confirmed in their
     memorandum, dated 13 March 2001, as follows:


          "The report envisages that a chosen investigation body will
          undertake the investigation, but there is no indication that
          that body should necessarily be the Unit or include the Unit".


     The Team indicated to the Committee that it commands the necessary
     skills, resources and legal powers to conduct the current phase of
     the forensic investigation it is engaged in. The Committee
     reaffirms the view expressed in the Fourteenth Report to the House
     that the best combination of skills should be utilised in
     conducting the investigation. Should the Team indicate the need
     for the appointment of an SIU at some later stage of the
     investigation to recover funds lost to the State, the Committee
     would be supportive of such a request. This is consistent with the
     view expressed by the Speaker in her letter to the Leader of
     Government Business, dated 29 January 2001:


          "... the Committee may pursue this and make a specific
          recommendation to the Assembly".


 D.     Interaction with members of Executive


     Interaction between the Committee and members of the Executive
     dealing with Strategic Defence Procurement, prior to finalising
     its Fourteenth Report to the House, could have gone a long way
     towards clarifying various issues raised in that report. A request
     for such interaction was made by the Executive but never brought
     before the Committee.


     On 26 February 2001 the Committee met with the Ministries of
     Defence, of Trade and Industry and of Finance, and engaged with
     them at length on the issues raised in the Fourteenth Report.


     During this interaction, the Ministers outlined the process
     followed by the Cabinet in arriving at decisions concerning the
     awarding of prime contracts in Strategic Defence Procurement. With
     regard to the awarding of the prime contracts, the Committee
     wishes to place on record that there was never any intention at
     any stage to accuse the Executive of being involved in dishonesty
     and/or corruption.


     The Ministers emphasised that the Cabinet was not responsible for,
     nor involved in the awarding of, subcontracts. The Cabinet's
     commitment to deal with any possible irregularities was reinforced
     by the Ministers' submission at the meeting:


          "If there were attempts by officials to try and influence
          subcontracting, we ask the Auditor-General to look at that".


     The Committee concludes that the equipment price as contracted in
     September 1999 was US$4,77 billion, plus escalations based on the
     industry-wide norm of 2,5%. Apart from the contract price, there
     is also the adjustments to payments arising from exchange rate
     fluctuations.


     The figure of R43 billion stated in the Budget Review is one of a
     number of projections of possible future costs.


     The fact that the government budgets on a cash basis and not on an
     accrual basis, explains why the cost should be reflected as R30,3
     billion and that any attempt to affix any possible future cost
     would be merely one of a number of projections.


     The Committee requested that the Portfolio Committee on Trade and
     Industry evaluate and report on the issues relating to guarantees
     of national industrial participation, and indicate whether it is
     satisfied that the targets will be met. A report of the Portfolio
     Committee on Trade and Industry was published on 20 March 2001
     (Announcements, Tablings and Committee Reports, p 219).


 E.     Letters from Leader of Government Business


     Many of the issues raised in the letters from the Leader of
     Government Business were revisited during the interaction with the
     Ministers. Issues identified for further scrutiny have been
     referred to the Joint Investigating Team. As regards the general
     characterisation of the international arms industry being corrupt,
     the Committee restates its position that there was never any
     intention to taint the Cabinet as being prone to corruption and
     dishonesty. Any inference in that regard was unintentional and is
     regretted.


     It must be noted that at no stage did the Committee (as a
     committee) consider the utilisation of any international forensic
     accounting facility. Engagement with any such facility with the
     aim of it participating in the investigation was outside the
     Committee's mandate.


 F.     Documentation


     During the period immediately prior to the Committee finalising
     its Fourteenth Report, a vast volume of documentation pertaining
     to Strategic Defence Procurement was made available to the
     chairperson of the Committee.


     The documentation was made available on the following conditions:


     1. The documents were to be kept at the Office of the Auditor-
          General.


     2. The documents were not to be removed from the above Office.


     3. The documents were not to be photocopied.


     The chairperson indicated to members of the Committee that the
     documentation was available under the conditions outlined above.


     However, due to the fact that the National Assembly was in recess
     at the time, the majority of Committee members did not have
     sufficient time to scrutinise the documentation before the
     Committee finalised its Fourteenth Report.


     Prior to the Ministers appearing before the Committee, it became
     apparent that this vast volume of documentation pertaining to
     Strategic Defence Procurement was in the possession of the
     chairperson. In terms of the Rules of the National Assembly, the
     Speaker intervened to ensure that the documentation be surrendered
     to the custody of Parliament, and a process was facilitated to
     allow all Committee members access to this documentation.


 G.     Conclusion


     The Committee will continue to exercise its oversight role, but
     should any further evidence pertaining to the arms deal come to
     hand, this evidence will be placed before the Joint Investigating
     Team for action. The Committee will submit its final report to the
     National Assembly after the Joint Investigating Team has completed
     its work.


     This Report does not represent the unanimity of Committee members.
     Consensus could not be reached on substantial issues raised in the
     Fourteenth Report. These substantial differences are recorded in
     the minutes of the Committee's meetings.


 Report to be considered.