WEDNESDAY, 26 SEPTEMBER 2001 __

                PROCEEDINGS OF THE NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
                                ____

The House met at 14:01.

The Chairperson of Committees took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayers or meditation.

ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS - see col 000.

TRANSFORMING TOURISM TO BENEFIT PREVIOUSLY DISADVANTAGED COMMUNITIES

                      (Subject for Discussion)

The MINISTER OF ENVIRONMENTAL AFFAIRS AND TOURISM: Chairperson, hon members, go tsamaya ke go bona. [tourism opens one’s eyes.] [Interjections.] For those members such as Tony Yengeni, whose proficiency in Setswana is not as good as mine, it means ``to travel is to see’’. Go tsamaya ke go bona. [Tourism opens one’s eyes.]

We meet on the eve of World Tourism Day, which is celebrated throughout the world tomorrow. The main global event takes place in Iran. The theme of World Tourism Day tomorrow, accepted by the global community, is Using tourism as an instrument of peace''. In South Africa, we have been celebrating tourism month during this month, September. The theme we used as our country's theme isto travel is to see’’.

South Africa continues to lay a solid basis for the sustainable and ongoing long-term growth of tourism. We rest that on a strategy with four elements. The first is to conduct a world-class international marketing campaign. It is my pleasure to inform members that our present High Commissioner to London, Cheryl Carolus, will shortly be assuming duty as head of SA Tourism to conduct that world-class campaign. [Applause.] I do believe that we require people of that calibre if we are to compete globally for the large and growing number of travellers around the world.

I can report that this year South Africa held its position in the global tourism market in spite of various developments in the Southern African region and internationally. The overall numbers of visitors to South Africa have dropped, but if we remove the numbers of visitors coming from Lesotho and Swaziland, which have dropped quite dramatically - of course we do not regard those as among other key markets - tourism in the first six months of 2001 has increased by 4,9%, which is much faster than the increase in the economy as a whole.

What is most encouraging is the steep increase of overseas foreign arrivals in June this year, which grew by 15,8%. The European market during that month grew by 14,9%; the North American market by 13%, whilst the most spectacular increase was 37,7% from the Middle East.

We also continue, as the second part of our strategy, to develop our human resource base in the travel and tourism industry. If we want to have sustainable tourism then we need to have the skills base to be able to absorb it. I can tell hon members that through Seta we have the most ambitious training and skills development programme in this sector, compared to any other sector in the economy. The third leg of our strategy is that our internal marketing strategy … [Interjections.]

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Mr Chairperson, from where I am sitting I cannot even hear the Minister because the hon Mr Douglas Gibson is making so much noise. [Laughter.] Could you please call him and his party to order.

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! Hon members, I would like to appeal to all of you. Please let us give the Minister a chance to be heard. It is a very important speech that he is making on tourism. Please let us do that, all of us! Continue, hon Minister.

The MINISTER: We continue to conduct our Welcome campaign at the grass- roots level amongst all communities in South Africa, so that South Africans will be regarded as a warm and welcoming people whenever foreigners come to our shores.

Lastly, we continue with product development in order to improve that which we offer to South African and international tourists. I would just like to mention a few in this regard. Recently, the Minister of Transport announced that the N2 highway, which runs through the Wild Coast area in the former Transkei, is now on track and that Cabinet has given the go-ahead for it to be built. This will open up the entire Wild Coast to the kind of tourism that we see along the Garden Route and other parts of the country. [Applause.] As far as the gate at the St Lucia Wetlands Park is concerned, during the first week of October Minister Alec Erwin and I will be announcing a specially designed set of incentives to crowd in investment into that region.

Of course, we continue to have growth in the convention and meeting centres in South Africa. Hon members know that in December last year the Sandton Convention Centre was opened. Hon members also know that in Cape Town in 2003 a completely new convention centre will be opened. We are becoming one of the favoured convention destinations in the world. In fact, at the moment we are already ranked number 20 among countries of the world as the most favoured convention destination - bearing in mind that we were virtually zero in 1994. Unesco has also recently declared the Waterberg Biosphere Reserve in the Northern Province to continue to focus attention on some of the natural wonders of this country.

May I say, Mr Chairperson, if we look at the theme of World Tourism Day, using tourism as an instrument of peace, there can be no better country in the world where citizens of this planet can come to and experience peace of mind. And I would like to use this opportunity to invite people of the world - those who are troubled by developments around the world - to go to the wilderness of the Kruger National Park and experience peace; to go to Namaqualand and look at the daisies there and experience peace; to go to the quietness and the wilderness of the Karoo and experience peace; and to walk the Drakensberg mountain range and experience the peace of the soul. [Applause.] So, we are saying to the world: This is the country for the soul! This is the country for peace!

Recently we had the World Conference against Racism in Durban. That was the biggest conference that was held in the world. More than 10 000 people came to the conference. In the middle of the conference we had a two-day general strike by our workers. We also had some of the most difficult and acrimonious issues of racism, the Middle East, and all those issues debated there. But that conference went off without a single incident. [Applause.] Not a single demonstrator was clobbered over the head by our policemen. Not a single window was broken. Not a single motor car was damaged. [Applause.] That is what we have to offer to the world. [Applause.]

Ms J A SEMPLE: Chairperson, tourism is not only the world’s largest industry, but also one of the fastest growing. It is one of the biggest producers of foreign exchange and, more importantly for South Africa, it has huge multiplier effects, including the development of small, medium and microenterprises. Tourism has great potential for creating opportunities for emerging and small entrepreneurs with relatively little capital cost.

Tourism also provides a unique opportunity for transformation by breaking down the traditional barriers between large and small, black and white, and domestic and international enterprises. In recognition of these goals, the Tourism Enterprise Programme provides invaluable assistance to SMMEs, which derive at least 50% of their income from tourism by helping them obtain professional services such as quality certification, debt and equity finance and proper business planning.

An example of one of the many entrepreneurs who have benefited from this programme is Faiz Noordiem, recently named Personality of the Year at the South African Travel Services Association’s Annual General Meeting. Mr Noordiem is a taxi driver who trained as a tour guide and is now the owner of the Legend Tours and Transfers. This is a tour-operating company in Cape Town which was assisted by the TEP with organising his exhibitions at Indaba, and with staff training and networking.

Other examples of the role played by private enterprise in the developing of tourism is that of the Sheraton Pretoria Hotel and Towers which will celebrate World Tourism Day by hosting 75 children from the community. These children will be educated about the importance of tourism for the growth of the country. Speakers have been arranged to discuss and inform the children about the respective options available in pursuing a career in the hospitality trade, vitally important in a country where the majority of people have never had the opportunity to travel. Those who are involved in the industry are often in menial positions with little chance of promotion.

Sustainability is also a key issue at both the macro and micro levels, due to the integrated relationship between attracting tourists to South Africa and serving them effectively so that they want to return. In this regard The Outpost, a new luxury lodge, is due to open in mid-2002 in the Makuleke region of the Kruger National Park. The first contractual agreement between a local tribe and private entrepreneurs within the park has begun the first phase of hospitality training for the Makuleke community. In-service training is part of the agreement because most of the staff employed by the lodge will come from the local community. They began at an upmarket guesthouse in Johannesburg and the students will also visit the Cape vineyards to learn about wines.

These initiatives are all very well and good, and deserve to be recognised for the valuable contribution they are making to the growth of tourism in our country, and in the inclusion of many new players in the industry. However, none of this will succeed unless the tourists actually want to come to the country and have the means of getting here. Whether one speaks to a one-person operator with a bed and breakfast in Tembisa or the executive director of a large hotel chain, they all want to know: ``Where are the tourists?’’

Government has upped the budget for tourism considerably over the past three years. Satour and the private sector spend millions marketing the country overseas; flights into the country are booked and overbooked months in advance. Foreign airlines are pulling out of the country in droves. Attacks on tourists make headline news all over the world and now we have the horrific acts of terrorism in the United States which will have an enormous effect on the global economy.

Last year, almost 174 174 travellers visited South Africa from the US, making it the country’s third largest source market for overseas tourists. Research has shown that during the Gulf War of 1991, visits abroad by US residents dropped by almost 10%. The Minister has urged visitors from overseas to come here, to get peace. Moeketsi Masola, chief operating officer of SA Tourism, states that this will be a very significant opportunity for South Africa to attract a large percentage of the many thousands of European visitors who are already cancelling planned holidays to America. There are two problems here.

One is that European tourists are cancelling their American holidays because of security concerns. In order for us to take full advantage of the situation, we must be able to convince potential visitors that they are safe here, unlike the unfortunate tourist to the World Racism Conference who was murdered in his hotel room.

I am not suggesting here that South Africa is in any way under attack from terrorists, although one might be forgiven for sometimes thinking that we have a war with criminals on our hands. We would like to know what plans Minister Moosa has for ensuring the safety of tourists and for getting that message out to potential visitors.

Secondly, there are no airline seats available for potential tourists to come here, at least not in the price range favoured by tour operators, that is, in the economy class. SAA insists this is not their fault. What is the Minister doing to increase capacity on our national carrier, to encourage other airlines to operate in South Africa and, at the very least, to encourage more charter flights? Without concrete answers to these questions, all the efforts, both by Government and the private sector, to develop tourism as an economic force to benefit all the people of South Africa will be wasted. [Applause.]

Nkk L R MBUYAZI: Sihlalo namalungu ahloniphekile, umhlonishwa uthe lapha ukuhamba ukubona. Mina-ke ngibuza ukuthi, sisavakashelana nje na? Siyazivakashela yini izihlobo zethu noma ngenxa ye-new technology, yamaselula nokunye, asisakwazi ukuvakasha kuphela nje sesivele sisithinte isihlobo. Okubalulekileyo iphuzu esikhuluma ngalo lapha lokuvakashelana okuthiwa i-tourism. (Translation of Zulu paragraph follows.)

[Mrs L R MBUYAZI: Madam Speaker and hon members, the hon member said to visit is to see. My question is, do we still visit one another? Do we visit our relatives or we do not, owing to new technology such as cellular phones and many other technological equipment, which prevents us from visiting our relatives, because if we want to contact them we simply make use of technology? The most important thing that we are discussing here is tourism.]

We have met to discuss the issues at the core of poverty alleviation, development and affirmative action. The Government and this House have set themselves the task of seeing to it that development, empowerment and poverty alleviation are given high priority. We and the international community will observe World Tourism Day tomorrow.

We welcome what the Minister has just said about the incentives at the St Lucia Wetlands because of the job opportunities it will create. I want to thank the Minister for this.

Disadvantaged communities exist in both cities and rural areas. The Government should have an overall focus on development, in both urban and rural areas. It would be a failure on the part of the Government to focus only on urban areas, as if its mandate comes only from such areas. Rural masses also elect Government. They must surely have a stake in the spoils of development.

I have said that disadvantaged communities are spread countrywide in cities, peri-urban and rural areas. We in the IFP believe in self-help and self-reliance. We in the IFP also want both rural and township tourism to be promoted. These two kinds of areas really form the hub of underdeveloped and undeveloped communities. They also need to see the fruits of liberation.

African tourists far less developed than us visit South Africa in larger droves than the rest of the western and eastern countries put together. These tourists could, in fact, gain from our development projects and infrastructure, because they can easily identify with peri-urban and rural settings. In this way the concept of the Millennium African Recovery Plan could gain momentum.

As I have said, we believe in self-help. We say that people in these areas should draw up a tourism route. They should engage themselves and become involved in tourism issues. They should draw up a route. For example, if one goes up to King Cetshwayo, en route from Durban, one will visit idlinza leNkosi uShaka [King Shaka’s grave]. But one would also visit other places. They should mention what one would find along the route so that tourists can know exactly. One should market oneself in terms of tourism, as South Africa is marketing itself. But rural people should also market what they have in their local authorities. We are concerned about fully fledged urban couriers which go about in townships and rural areas to gain access to the traditional courier market. This is very serious. People go out in rural areas, market these issues in market stalls, and profit out of that. In turn, urban couriers rob these poor people of their potential markets by buying products at a very nominal price and selling them at very steep prices in cities and towns where there are international tourists. In this way they make undue gains at the expense of disadvantaged communities, and by so doing prevent township and rural tourism from having an effect, seeing that the rural market is gleaned in order in the cities.

Disadvantaged communities are exposed to unfathomable danger when they gather resources in swamps, lakes and bushes and yet some armchair spineless receive the gains. We wish that this issue could be regulated to help these poor communities who are robbed of their manual and artistic rights.

We would like to pursue the issue of training local tour guides to make them gain from their environment. The situation in which a remote city tour guide who does not know anything about a place receives hints on its salient features and history is intolerable.

One would find tour guides coming from other areas and giving direction where they do not know what really took place in that area. We need people from the local environment to be the tour guides. When one drives along and goes to that area, one comes across umama ubani there waiting for the tour bus, who take the bus and lead the tour, and even other people who give the wrong interpretation of the area because they do not know it. That is what is happening in the whole of South Africa. These tour guides give international tourists a wrong interpretation about South Africa as a whole.

What we are saying is that we need to train the local tour guides to tour and tell the people about what is happening in their surrounding areas. Imithi, izihlahla nakho konke nje okungahle bakusho. [Trees, bushes and many other things that they can mention.]

Mr J W LE ROUX: Chairperson, it is a fact that a successful tourism industry in South Africa can make a huge impact on our economy and better the lives of millions of South Africans who were previously disadvantaged. The unfortunate truth is that very few people in South Africa believe this and only those directly involved in the industry seem to care. We welcome the appointment of Ms Cheryl Carolus and we wish her the best of luck.

The daunting question is how to convert our undoubted potential into reality. The following statistics might interest the House. Tourism is the largest industry in the world and virtually every successful country has a thriving tourism industry. One in every nine workers worldwide is employed in the tourism industry, and in South Africa the ratio is 16. Tourism contributes 12% to the world economy, but in South Africa it is 8%. If we compare world averages to our own performance, we are achieving about 50% of our potential.

The question is: Why are we underperforming, and what can we as South Africans do to exploit this magnificent opportunity? Tourism is like any other business. One needs customers, and generally the more customers one has the bigger the reward. Unfortunately, one cannot rely on sentiments nor force customers to buy one’s goods or use one’s services. We find ourselves in a highly competitive market and we must make sure that we have the right goods at the right price, and that our service is as good as or better than that of any of our competitors.

On what we have on offer, South Africa must strive to be one of the most interesting destinations in the world. We have huge diversity and natural beauty, we have excellent parks and wilderness areas, and we offer unspoilt beaches, excellent hunting, fishing, surfing, and golfing.

Much has been done to market South Africa as a first class tourist destination. The welcome campaign, the ubuntu, We Care, and the Welcome host campaign focused exactly on what we need to do.

As far as our prices for goods and services are concerned, the weak rand makes it impossible not to be competitive. The question: Why are we not getting enough visitors? It is important to note that 60% of people visit a country because a friend or relative has recommended it as a destination. This is of major importance and gives us at least part of the answer to our problem.

A satisfied tourist is worth more than glossy advertisements or glib sales talk. However, every criminal encounter a tourist has costs our country dearly. Imagine the disgust of a visitor who stops to admire the beautiful scenery and is then harassed, robbed or maimed. Even the most wonderful holidays are completely spoilt by such a criminal act.

Our inadequate public transport is a serious problem. We do not have enough reliable coaches, taxis and trains, and add to this our confusing road signage where even locals often lose their way. This should receive immediate attention. Obviously there are many exceptions, but in general our restaurants are not up to world standard and our wines are overpriced.

As far as customer service is concerned, South Africa does not even remotely compare with its main competitors. Friendly, efficient service is absolutely essential. Many of our pristine areas are completely spoilt by litter. The Addo Elephant National Park is possibly the best example. When travelling from Port Elizabeth to the park to view these magnificent animals, one has to drive through some of the worst pollution imaginable. It should fill us all with pride if tourism arrivals dramatically increased. Success must give us the same patriotic feeling as when South Africa won the Rugby World Cup. Every tourist that leaves our shores must tell his or her family and friends that South Africa is a wonderful country inhabited by wonderful people. [Time expired.]

Moh G L MAHLANGU: Tona o nepile, go tsamaya ke go bona, e bile go tsamaya ke go bulega matlho le ditsebe. Batho ba ba ntseng ba bua fa, motho o a ipotsa gore ba nna kae gonne fa ba ka be ba nna mo Aforika Borwa ba ka bo ba itse dilo tse rona re di itseng.

Rona re na le borona, re a ithata, re lefatshe le batho ba bantsi ba le ratang ke ka moo fa e sale ka 1994 batho ba ba etelang Aforika Borwa ba oketsega letsatsi ka letsatsi.(Translation of Setswana paragraphs follows.)

[Ms G L MAHLANGU: The hon Minister is right, tourism opens one’s eyes and ears. One wonders where the previous speakers live, because if they live in South Africa, they would know what we are talking about.

We have a sense of self-worth. We love ourselves. We are a country which is admired by many. That is why the number of people visiting South Africa has increased day by day since 1994.]

Hon members, ladies and gentlemen, the tourism White Paper stresses the importance of transforming the tourism industry. This industry, before 1994, was not informed by a better life for all as it excluded and marginalised millions of South Africans. One of the guiding principles of the tourism White Paper is that tourism must be used as a tool for the empowerment previously neglected communities.

Therefore, the Chief Whip’s motion this afternoon is not only relevant, but presents an overdue discussion of a thorny subject to some of us in this House. When transformation is mentioned, it appears to others as if a ghost has just passed through this House. Our Government has displayed a commitment to transformation of this industry and has put instruments in place to achieve that, those are legislation and regulations.

In his state-of-the-nation address at the beginning of this year, President Mbeki said:

We have entered the 21st century having resolved and declared to ourselves, as Africans, and to the rest of the world that, primarily, none but ourselves can extricate us and our continent from the curse of poverty, underdevelopment and marginalisation.

We have worked together for a decade to make our country what for 300 years it was not. As a country, undoubtedly all of us would have made mistakes as we sought to build what had never been there, and will make yet more mistakes. But we were right and we did not make a mistake when we agreed together that we will transform this commonly troubled motherland and set about the task of transforming it into a country of democracy, peace, equality and prosperity.

Together we must turn into reality a new internationalism that does not permit the coexistence within human society of opulence and grinding poverty, a thriving modernity and a dehumanising underdevelopment. Together we must unlock the potential in our region, the African continent. As I stand here, I know where the Statue of Liberty is in the United States, and where Trafalgar Square is in the United Kingdom. But, even though I speak about the African Renaissance every day and say how proud I am to be African, I do not know the wilderness of the savannas, deserts, wetlands and the saltpans of Botswana. I did not know that a single point midstream in the Zambezi river at Kazungula joins four countries, namely, Botswana, Zambia, Zimbabwe and Namibia; that on the east coast of the Zanzibar islands, about 60km from the Nairobi airport, there is a resort that faces a splendid beach of white soft sand, elegant palm trees and a warm, turquoise sea, and that this resort lies along a pristine, untouched beach stretching as far as the eye can see.

I did not know that Lagos in Nigeria can offer one a number of unique experiences. This city is chiefly known for its music. Those hon members who love music will remember the late Fela Kuti. Sunny Ade the king of the juju music still calls it home as does Afro-reggae specialist, Okosun.

I did not know that between Côte d’Ivoire and Togo in West Africa there is a country called Ghana which appeals to a diverse group of travellers and those seeking a rich and vibrant culture. I did not know that Tshimumba Kanda Matulu, Mutanda wa Mutanda and other artists have been widely recognised for their visual narratives of the history of the Congo; and that these artists would present Patrice Lumumba not just as a Congolese hero, but a truly African one; and that Nelson Mandela and Patrice Lumumba have become symbols of the collective of African memory, yet I am an African.

For centuries Europeans dominated the African continent. The white man arrogated to himself the right to rule and be obeyed by the non-white. His mission, he claimed, was ``to civilise’’. All this makes a sad story, but now, we must be prepared to bury the past with its unpleasant memories and look to the future.

Although most Africans are poor, our region, the African continent, is extremely rich. This is one of the reasons why we have, in Africa, the paradox of poverty in the midst of plenty and scarcity in the midst of abundance.

Kwame Nkrumah in I Speak of Freedom says never before has a people had within their grasp so great an opportunity for developing a continent endowed with so much wealth. Individually, the independent states of Africa, some of them potentially rich and others poor, can do little for their people. Together, by mutual help, they can achieve much. President Mbeki calls for the renaissance of the African continent and he is very right. With our minerals, forests and crops, including cocoa, coffee, rubber and tobacco, we can make it.

The emphasis of an economic dimension of the African Renaissance through tourism is not a dream. If we all throw our lot together in supporting our neighbouring countries and the region, we will be on the right track towards economic growth. If we can commit to the capital flow within and between countries of Africa and encourage investment in the continent through tourism in the context of the propagation of the philosophy of the African Renaissance, no one will touch us.

Le fa ba ba re tlhoileng ba le teng mo gare ga rona, ba bua le dipampiri tsa kwa moseja ba re Aforika Borwa o a tshabega, o a bolaya, bontsi jwa bajanala ba ntse ba goroga bosigo le motshegare. Bontsi jwa bajanala ba Aforika Borwa bo tswa mafatsheng a Aforika. Batho ba ne ba bilediwa go tla go tla go bona diphologolo. Rona bathobantsho re ne re kaiwa jaaka dirapa tsa diphologolo. Gompieno re a tlhomphiwa. Re batho ba ditso tse di farologaneng mme re itse go tshela mmogo ka kagiso. (Translation of Setswana paragraph follows.)

[Even though our enemies are in our midst, telling the foreign media that South Africa is not a peaceful country and that it is a murderous country, tourists are flooding into the country day and night. Most of the tourists come from African countries. People thought that they were coming to South Africa to see animals and black people. We were likened to animals. Today, people respect us. We are people of diverse cultures but we live together in peace and harmony.]

We have a rich history of struggle and a unique Constitution with the Bill of Rights enshrined in it. Who would not want to visit our country? In other African countries South Africa is a dream yet to be experienced. I would like to challenge hon members that Africa, the motherland, calls on each and every one of us to embrace and know each other. This can only add to the better life for all, on this continent. We can only be taken seriously by other regions if we are proud of who we are and not act as if we are in Europe.

President Mbeki further said, during the state of the nation address, and I quote:

The majority of people present in this Chamber are South African. Outwardly, we are a people of many colours, races, cultures, languages and ancient origins. Yet we are tied to one another by a million visible and invisible threads. We share a common destiny from which none of us can escape because together we are human, we are South African, we are African.

[Applause.]

Prof L M MBADI: Mgcini-sihlalo, baphathiswa abakhoyo apha, liyinene elesiNguni elithi: Ukuhamba kukubona. Bambi bathi: Ukuhamba ngumbona. Hayi bo! [Kwahlekwa.] AyisosiXhosa eso.

Eyona nto ibalulekileyo sizenzo ngaphezu kokuthetha. Singena apha imihla nezolo sithetha int’ enye. Kambe singekenzi, asikaphumeleli. (Translation of Xhosa paragraphs follows.) [Prof L M MBADI: Madam Speaker, hon Ministers who are here, in Nguni they say: Travelling is an intellectual enrichment. Some corrupt this saying into something that is not Xhosa. [Laughter.]

What is important is action, more so than just talking. Every day, when we are here, we say the same thing. However, if we have not done anything, we have not achieved anything.]

The upliftment or empowerment of previously disadvantaged communities has been a central theme of this Parliament since its inception, and rightly so. Our ideological approach to this issue may differ. For the record, the UDM is convinced that empowerment must be achieved through partnership. By bringing South Africans together we can narrow the gap between the haves and the have-nots, without encouraging a culture of entitlement or fanning minority fears. But be that as it may, narrow the gap we must.

The UDM has since its launch advocated tourism as a vital sector of the economy to contribute to the empowerment of previously disadvantaged communities. We are relieved that the department has also come to this conclusion, especially under Minister Moosa. The reasons for our conviction are based on the fact that South Africa has such a wealth of variety and diversity to offer in terms of tourism, and also, importantly, tourism creates opportunities for entrepreneurs.

Central to the UDM policy is the concept of enterprise development. It is, in our view, the most effective way of creating opportunities for personal and economic growth for previously disadvantaged individuals. This concept recognises that South Africans must come together in partnership, and commit themselves to transforming our society so to be geared towards the development and encouragement of entrepreneurs.

Against this background, the UDM is aggrieved by Government’s lacklustre attempts at enterprise development. How can we expect tourism as a sector to contribute to the upliftment of the previously disadvantaged when this Government has failed dismally in the task of encouraging job creation? How can we expect of tourism to contribute towards the upliftment when the Department of Trade and Industry, especially, seems unable or unwilling, for the past seven years … Kuba ndisuke ndasondela kuwe uthi mandihlale phantsi, enkosi. [Just because I have now come too close to you, you say I should sit down, thank you.] [Time expired.]

Mr S N SWART: Chairperson, hon Minister, our President earlier this year identified tourism as one of the sectors of our economy that require special attention owing to its potential to contribute to the objectives of higher growth rates and job creation.

As we prepare to celebrate World Tourism Day tomorrow, we are faced with the question: To what degree has tourism benefited previously marginalised communities? According to an article in an Idasa publication dedicated to tourism, the tension between facilitating black business involvement, while maintaining the high standards that have brought South African tourism international acclaim, lies at the heart of the transformation debate in tourism.

Whilst the need to transform tourism has been highlighted by various speakers, and has been addressed in legislation, such as that dealing with tourism guiding, which we enthusiastically supported together with our Chairperson Gwen Mahlangu, and all members of the committee, much still needs to be done in this area.

The Tourism Enterprise Programme released by the hon Minister to empower black enterprise in the tourism industry with a strategy relating to skills development and capacity building, the promotion and support of small businesses, and changing the ownership profile of tourism projects, should thus be supported.

Whilst all sectors agree that previously marginalised groups deserve empathy, standards cannot, however, be compromised, and a minimum standard must be maintained for tourism to flourish. The assistance of the department, private sector and the SA Bureau of Standards will undoubtedly ensure that a benchmark for hospitality is set for tourists to ensure that South Africa becomes a preferred destination. Standards must, however, not be used to exclude budding black entrepreneurs from the industry.

In conclusion, the tourism sector holds the key to creating opportunities for emerging and small entrepreneurs, and should play a greater role in providing greater socioeconomic benefits for the wider population of South Africa.

Dr P W A MULDER: Mr Chairman, we must learn from the successful tourism countries of the world. Spain and South Africa have much in common. Spain is placed among the first three countries in the world when it comes to the number of tourists. It is just behind France and the United States of America.

Suid-Afrika het ‘n bevolking van 43 miljoen mense. Spanje se bevolking is sowat 40 miljoen. Albei lande is bekend vir hul sonskyn en verskillende ander aantreklikhede, maar wat is die verskil? Die verskil tussen die twee lande is dat Spanje se 40 miljoen inwoners in die jaar 2000, dit wil sê verlede jaar, 48 miljoen toeriste ontvang het. Hulle het 40 miljoen inwoners en 48 miljoen toeriste is ontvang.

In Suid-Afrika met sy 43 miljoen inwoners het ons maar sowat twee miljoen meer as dié getal toeriste ontvang. Ek is oortuig daarvan dat Suid-Afrika dié land in die wêreld is met die grootste potensiaal om sy toerismebedryf te kan vergroot en uit te bou.

Die syfers sê elke toeris skep nege werkgeleenthede. Ek moet bysê die Minister doen sy bes met sy verskillende veldtogte. Ek wil hom graag kritiseer, maar ek kry nie baie waarop ek hom kan kritiseer nie. Hy doen sy bes met die verskillende veldtogte, ook internasionaal, veral as ‘n mens in Londen kom en gaan kyk wat daar aangaan.

Ek moet bysê Minister Trevor Manuel doen sy bes met die swak rand om ons hier in Suid-Afrika te hou en toeriste te lok, maar die feit bly staan: ons kan nie met Spanje vergelyk word nie. Uiteindelik is daar, wat my betref, net een faktor en dit is veiligheid en misdaad. Toeriste is baie sensitief vir enige situasie wat onveilig lyk, kyk maar na die reaksie ná die gebeure by die World Trade Centre.

Of dit nou president Mugabe se wilde uitsprake is en of dit die een of ander misdaadvoorval is, die toeris kanselleer onmiddellik sy besoek. Agb lede kan maar gaan kyk wat gebeur nou ná wat in Amerika gebeur het. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)

[South Africa has a population of 43 million people. Spain’s population is approximately 40 million. Both countries are known for their sunshine and various other attractions, but what is the difference? The difference between the two countries is that in the year 2000, that is last year, Spain’s 40 million inhabitants received 48 million tourists. They are 40 million inhabitants and 48 million tourists were received.

In South Africa with its 43 million inhabitants we only received approximately two million more tourists than this number. I am convinced that South Africa is the country in the world with the greatest potential to increase and expand its tourist industry.

The figures say that each tourist creates nine jobs. I must add that the Minister is doing his best with his various campaigns. I would dearly like to criticise him, but I cannot find very much on which I can criticise him. He is doing his best with the various campaigns, also internationally, particularly if one goes to London and sees what is going on there.

I must add that Minister Trevor Manuel is doing his best with the weak rand to keep us here in South Africa and to attract tourists, but the fact remains: we cannot be compared with Spain. As far as I am concerned, in the end there is only one factor and that is safety and crime. Tourists are very sensitive to any situation which is unsafe. One only has to look at the reaction after the events at the World Trade Centre.

Whether it is president Mugabe’s wild statements and whether it is some or other criminal incident, the tourist immediately cancels his visit. Hon members are welcome to look at what is happening now after what happened in America.]

Last year tourists at the Backpackers Lodge in Johannesburg were robbed at gunpoint by a group of armed men. One of them was raped, and, of the 15 tourists involved, 13 opted to leave the country as soon as possible. Last year a Polish tourist was attacked and his wife raped in the Free State, etc, etc.

Voor ons dit nie gaan regstel deur meer werkgeleenthede te skep en deur die ekonomie aan die gang te kry nie, gaan daar nie veiligheid kom nie en sal ons nie met Spanje kan meeding nie. Elkeen van die Minister se veldtogte sal gekanselleer word deur een van dié veldtogte. Ons moet veiligheid en misdaad kan beheer. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraph follows.)

[Until we can rectify this by creating more jobs and by getting the economy going, there will be no safety and we will not be able to compete with Spain. Each of the Minister’s campaigns will be cancelled by one of these campaigns. We must be able to control safety and crime.]

Mr P H K DITSHETELO: Chairperson, the greatest challenge that the Government has been faced with since the democratisation process is how to transform our society in general and, in particular, to ensure that the previously disadvantaged communities play an important role in the mainstream of our economy.

The involvement of previously disadvantaged people in the tourism industry is at best perceived as nonexistent, save to participate as tourist operators. The Government is often accused of paying scant attention to the transformation of the tourism industry.

With the democratisation process in South Africa and relative stability, South Africa is enjoying its status as a country that often positions itself as upholding and promoting a culture of human rights. By tapping into our rich heritage and what the country could offer as a desirable tourist destination, we are competing against other countries for visitors.

The promotion and development of SMMEs in the tourism industry is key to the participation of previously disadvantaged people and to economic growth in South Africa. SMMEs also provide business opportunities for rural-based women, who are mainly unemployed and often breadwinners in meaningful participation in the economy, thereby making a living and creating wealth for themselves and, indeed, for the country.

We applaud the Department of Environmental Affairs and Tourism for demonstrating what partnership between government, the private sector and the community can achieve. A classical example is the Government-led tourism promotion strategy, with the recent investment grant that was made by the department to the value of R3,7 million to fund the North West tourism project, the Moruleng heritage museum, the tourism road brick- paving project and the Mogwase craft factory. It is also classical … [Time expired.]

Dr M S MOGOBA: Chairperson, the earth is the Lord’s and the fullness thereof. The earth does not belong to one individual family or one group of people. We cannot privatise God’s world. When a beautiful sun rises majestically on the horizon, it is for all to enjoy. In my mail yesterday, I found a leaflet announcing how one can come to enjoy the beauty of the Lowveld. It went: ``Come and renew yourself for only … ‘’ I thought it was R750.00, and I was horrified, but I had omitted the 2 before the 7. It is R2 750 per person, per night, sharing. I nearly jumped out of my skin.

Of course, we need the rich to pay for the development of the tourist trade, but then we must also have facilities that can allow the poor or the not-so-rich to go out, to unwind, to renew themselves in the beautiful scenery of our country. Further, the proceeds from tourism should be shared by all. We should encourage the people in our informal settlements, townships and the villages to attract our tourist population to visit them and to buy from them. This can easily be done by creating new routes to the well-known tourists destinations, for example tourists going to the Kruger Park can travel on the N1 and N4 routes, or they can travel through the vast rural communities one way and then come back the other way.

I am sure many tourists do not want to come to our country and only see the nature reserves, the towns and the cities which do not only look like their towns back home, but have names like Belfast, Berlin, East London, Cambridge and New Hanover. [Time expired.]

Miss S RAJBALLY: Chairperson, South Africa, a country so rich in diversity, culture, faces and beauties, is certainly a magnet for tourism, with so many sights and so much scenery to feast one’s eyes upon. With so many diverse cultures, backgrounds and religions, calling this home and with a history like ours and bright future ahead, there is no need to advertise the reason for the Republic being a wise choice as a tourist destination.

Harbouring all of these and a variety of talents and entertainment, our country’s pull for tourists is influenced. Tourism being a large contributor to state revenue is a matter of importance, requiring much attention and revamping of invitation. The question that the MF asks is: How do we do this? Bearing in mind that the tourism industry is large, transformation would not be easy. The MF advocates, though, that the change is necessary.

The MF notes that tourism in South Africa has been centralised around a series of markets for years. Perhaps this centralisation could shift to incorporate other markets such as those of disadvantaged communities, as well as shift its focus on market areas. With the history of our struggle, it would be an acknowledgement of the history of this nation, a very important history that has brought us to where we are today. In turn whatever revenue is attained from this could be pumped into the development of disadvantaged areas.

However, tourism has recently experienced a slump, owing to fear for safety. The MF feels that to make this transformation possible, we first have to ensure the safety of our tourists. The MF sees an advancement in such a change and many ideas blossom as to how to achieve this. However, it will take minds to accomplish, so the MF suggests a meeting of minds from the Government departments, NGOs and the public, to contribute suggestions as to how to make this possible.

The MF supports the transformation of tourism to benefit previously disadvantaged communities. [Time expired.]

Mr C AUCAMP: Chairperson, tourism has the potential to become South Africa’s main source of income. Indeed, we can say visit South Africa and see the world''. In this regard, we must congratulate a very busy Minister who has succeeded in transforming a realAspoestertjie’’ [Cinderella] portfolio into one of the mainstream portfolios in South Africa. A visit to the department’s website on the Internet gives ample proof of this fact.

The best way to transform tourism to benefit every single community is to utilise the full potential of this market. The bigger the cake, the bigger every portion of that cake will be. The more jobs that could be created by exploiting South Africa’s tourism potential, the greater the benefit for communities. This, however, is not the responsibility of the department alone. We must follow a holistic approach.

‘n Saak wat aangespreek moet word, is misdaad, soos reeds genoem is. Nie net skrik dit internasionale besoekers af nie, maar dit inhibeer ook plaaslike toerisme. Misdaad het ons al eintlik verander in ‘n ``no-go area’’. Op die lange duur is dit baie nadelig.

Ons kan nie net belê in sosiale projekte in ons begroting nie. Ons infrastruktuur moet aandag kry, want dit is ‘n sleutelfaktor vir ‘n toerismevriendelike omgewing. Hier dink ons veral aan die toestand van ons paaie op die platteland. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)

[Crime is a matter that must be addressed, as has already been mentioned. Not only does it deter international visitors, but it also inhibits local tourism. Crime has actually turned us into a ``no-go area’’. In the long run it is very detrimental.

We cannot invest only in social projects in our budget. Attention must be given to our infrastructure, because it is a key factor for a tourism- friendly environment. Here we are thinking especially of the state of our roads in the rural areas.]

Potholes are not a species that any tourist would like to put on his itinerary.

Buitelandse beleid is ook belangrik. Ons moet daarop let dat ons gestraf word vir Mugabe se manewales, omdat die Regering nie die politieke moed gehad het om die regte ding te doen en voor die wêreld daardie wandade te verdoem nie. ‘n Duidelike en ferm standpunt is ook nodig teen internasionale terrorisme, wat nou hoog op die agenda is.

Toerisme-ontwikkeling moet ook in landelike gebiede aangemoedig word. Sekere gemeenskappe baat niks by toerisme nie. Ons moet probeer om die patrone te desentraliseer. Ons moet ons kulturele erfenis benut en geleenthede skep vir informele entrepreneurs. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)

[Foreign policy is also important. We should take note of the fact that we are being punished for Mugabe’s antics, because the government did not have the political courage to do the right thing by publicly condemning those misdeeds. It is also necessary to take a clear and firm standpoint against international terrorism, which is high on the agenda at present. Tourism development should be encouraged in rural areas as well. Some communities are not benefiting from tourism at all. We must try to decentralise the patterns. We must utilise our cultural heritage and create opportunities for informal entrepreneurs.]

The key issue was outlined by the Minister to the NCOP last year, and I quote:

Going and using tourism to achieve the dream of a better life for all is everybody’s business. From offering a simple smile of welcome and friendly service, we can all contribute by sharing our ancient and unique diversity of culture and directives.

Ms C M P RAMOTSAMAI: Mr Chairperson and hon members, while travel and tourism continue to experience significant economic growth in South Africa, this does not match with whom it benefits on the ground, demographically.

Tourism is not only the world’s largest, but also one of the world’s fastest-growing industries. It is, therefore, imperative to see the majority of South Africans benefiting from the industry. The topic for discussion today is transforming tourism to benefit previously disadvantaged communities. Let us look at what is wrong with the tourism sector. Because of discrimination, most of the developments of this sector that took place during the apartheid era were therefore skewed to benefit whites.

Many structures, processes and much of the culture of this sector have unavoidably been created under the old order or, even more disturbing, in the new era under old paradigms. Discriminations of various types are embedded within these legacies, and to overcome them is, indeed, a political, social and economic task.

It is, therefore, for these reasons that the ANC Government, through the Department of Environmental Affairs and Tourism, formed a partnership with the Business Trust and Seta, to set up tourism learnership projects to undo some of these legacies, particularly in educational training and in skills development.

There are other areas that are cause for concern, in particular standards. The present standards ignore underlying attributes. They are essentially status quo orientated and conservative. They ignore complexity of performance in the real world. They are misleading and not factual about South African history, its people and culture.

It is inadequate for standards simply to prescribe the set of rules or activities to be followed. Rather, the standards should describe the knowledge, skills and values. All the above means that we have to transform qualifications. The tourism learnership project, together with the NQF, has just completed a process to deal with the problems I have just mentioned..

The Tourism Second Amendment Act, 2000, which is to be implemented on 1 October, begins to undo the painful past. This Act begins to recognise tour guides widely, including Oom Dawie, who has never been to school, but has a special knowledge and expertise about the history of his area.

The Department of Environmental Affairs and Tourism, Minister Valli Moosa and the Portfolio Committee on Tourism, earlier this year, held their planning meeting in Guguletu to advance transformation. Three weeks ago our portfolio committee embarked on provincial visits to Gauteng and the Eastern Cape, and in both provinces, spent their budget on previously disadvantaged communities. [Applause.]

During our stay in Tembisa at The View Guesthouse, we only paid for transport and accommodation, and nothing for entertainment, love and friendship, which was offered to us free of charge by the community of Tembisa. I challenge all departments and communities to spend at least 30% of their budget to benefit historically disadvantaged tourism businesses, especially around catering, accommodation and transport.

Kgale-kgale, ha re ntse re hola, re tataisa, re ne re ntse re re Lesotho lefatshe la habo ntata rona. Kajeno ke re Afrika Borwa lefatshe le letle la habo ntata rona. Ke ba bakae hara rona mo, ba etang, ba bone botle ba lefatshe le la rona? Lefatshe lena re hlahetse ho lona, ra holela ho lona mme re bile re tsofalla ho lona, empa ha re le tsebe. Le tsejwa ke ba fihlang le ba tjhakang.

Ke mema bohle ba sokang ba eta hore ba etse jwalo ho hodisa thepa ya lefatshe la rona le ho fumana monyetla wa ho bona dibaka tsohle, tse ngata, tseo boholo ba rona re badileng ka tsona sekolong re esoka re di bona.

Le ha ho hlokeha hore re ete, maemo a ho eta a tshwanela ho fetoha, ho lokisetsa bongata ba batho. Taba ya pele ke ho bebofatsa maemo a dipalangwang tseo tjhelete ya tsona e kgonehang, jwalo ka diterene, hore di fihlelle dibakeng tsohle, haholo-holo mahaeng.

Ha morao tjena, sebui sa Spoornet, Mong Ncube, o nehelane ka raporoto komiting ya rona, e bolelang hore ba ikemiseditse ho bula ditsela tsa terene tse neng di kwalwe kgale, dibakeng tsa Kapa Botjhabela. Sena se tla etsa hore ba sebedisane haholo le mmuso wa profensi eo, mme se tla kgothaletsa batho ba meputso e tlase ho eta le ho bona lefatshe lena la habo bona. Ho tsamaya ke ho bona, ha se ho fasa dibono ka teele. [Ditsheho.]

Ka nako e nngwe, ha re etela dibaka tse jwalo ka bo Ntlha ya Kapa (Cape Point) le Thaba Tafole (Table Mountain), re tsamaya moo re se re kgopisehile hobane makgowa, haholo-holo basebetsi ba basweu, ha a bona rona, batho ba batsho, moo, ba hlola ba re botsa hore na re ma-Amerika na. Ha re ipolela hore re ma-Afrika Borwa, ebe re bona mosa o se o fela. (Translation of Sesotho paragraphs follows.)

[In the olden days, when we were still growing up, we used to say: Lesotho, our fatherland. Today, I say: South Africa our beautiful fatherland. How many of us here tour around and see the beauty of this land? We were born in this country, we grew up here and we grew old in this country, but we do not know it. People who just come to this country as tourists know it better. I therefore invite all those who have never travelled to do so in order to develop our country and get an opportunity to see all the different places, which most of us were taught about at school but never saw before.

Even if we need to travel, travel conditions need to be changed, to make it easy for most of our people. Firstly, conditions in affordable transport systems, like trains, should be improved so that they can be accessible to all areas, especially rural areas.

Recently, Spoornet’s spokesperson, Mr Ncube, presented a report to our committee stating that Spoornet is intending to reopen the railway routes that have been closed in the Eastern Cape. This will enable a lot of co- operation between Spoornet and the province, and will also encourage people who earn lower salaries to travel and tour around their own country. We learn by travelling. [Laughter.]

Sometimes, when we visit places like Cape Point and Table Mountain, we are offended, especially by white employees who always assume that we black people are Americans. When we explain that we are South Africans, they become reluctant to assist us.]

Transformation should not only be about legislation and practice, it must be about changing attitudes too.

Hape taba e nngwe ke ya hore batho ha ba finyelle ho etela dibaka tsena hobane tefello ya teng e phahame haholo. Ha ba e fihlelle, e fihlellwa ke bommaditjhelete le boraditjhelete fela.

Mong Valli Moosa o behile tjhelete e kalo ka R169 million, e tla tobana le diprojeke tsa ho fokotsa bofuma, ho hlahisa menyetla ya mesebetsi e tobaneng le tsa ho eta, e leng tsa tourism. Diprojeke tsena ho batleha hore e be tse tla hola ho ya ho ile, e seng tse tla fela hosane. Batho ba heso, ha re sebetseng ka thata ho aha lefatshe lena la habo rona. Hosane Mong Valli Moosa o tla be a ketekela Letsatsi la Lefatshe la Bohahlaudi (World Tourism Day), mane Kapa Botjhabela. O tla be a le lesakeng la Mgqesha, moo ho thweng o tla be a apere tsa setso, e leng tsa Sexhosa. Halala, Letona, halala! [Ditlatse.] (Translation of Sesotho paragraphs follows.)

[Another issue is that people cannot afford to tour these places because of the high prices charged. Only people with money can afford to do so.

An amount of R169 million has been set aside by Mr Valli Moosa for projects concerning poverty relief and job creating opportunities in tourism. These projects need to be developed and not just terminated in the near future.

Comrades, let us work hard to build our country. Mr Valli Moosa will be celebrating World Tourism Day in the Eastern Cape tomorrow. He will be at Mgqesha kraal, and I understand he will be wearing traditional Xhosa attire. Halala, Minister, halala! [Applause.]]

The MINISTER OF ENVIRONMENTAL AFFAIRS AND TOURISM: Chairperson, the first speaker was the hon Janet Semple. I said that the World Conference against Racism was one of the only major international conferences in modern times that was held in complete peace in spite of difficult circumstances. The hon Semple contradicted me on this point. I was very irritated. I was going to attack her viciously. But, the hon Penuell Maduna pleaded with me that I should not do this, although when people attack him during his debate he does not spare them his stance. So he said I should educate her instead.

The World Conference against Racism is something that we as South Africans should be proud of. Forget what was agreed and what was not agreed upon. We had more than 10 000 people who came to this country. There was no incident. In the middle of the conference, we had a national general strike by workers and we had people demonstrating against very emotional issues relating to racism. No policeman beat up a single demonstrator, no worker broke a single window and no motor car was damaged.

The member uses the example of a delegate who was murdered in a hotel room. Let me educate the hon member. The delegate that she is referring to was found in a hotel room with five prostitutes. The prostitutes said they had administered drugs to him. If the hon member Semple is going to use this and claim that delegates were feeling insecure, I will have to ask Tony Leon to put her through a little education camp. [Applause.]

I would like to urge all members of Parliament, since they travel quite a lot and interact with people all over the country and the world, to use their influence to tell people the truth about our country. The truth is that this is genuinely one of the best places in the world that is able to hold major international conferences. We have the capacity to do it and to keep everybody safe in this country. We have done this over and over again. We did it with the Nonaligned Movement Conference and various other conferences that have been held here. Even the Aids conference went peacefully.

In conclusion, may I just thank everybody who has spoken, except for the hon Mr Swart. He quoted some Idasa publication which states that the key question in the transformation debate is the trade-off between transformation and standards. I must say, since he belongs to the ACDP, the approach he took is a real insult to many members of the ACDP. This is not a trade-off. The hon member cannot tell me that as soon as one gets people who are not white into the hospitality industry, standards will drop. Let us talk about food. Is the hon member’s traditional cuisine any better than my traditional cuisine or that of Penuell Maduna? I will be quite surprised if he thinks this is the case. [Applause.]

Debate concluded.

QUESTIONS AND REPLIES - see that book.

                          NOTICES OF MOTION

Dr Z P JORDAN: Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the ANC:

That the House -

(1) notes the agreement reached among Commonwealth Ministers at Abuja;

(2) further notes the negative impact that continued extralegal farm occupations are having on the Zimbabwean economy and that of the region;

(3) regrets the reported remarks of Zimbabwe’s information Minister, Mr Johathan Moyo; and

(4) calls on the government of Zimbabwe to fulfil the letter and the spirit of the Abuja agreement, to restore stability to that country and to ensure the continued stability of this region.

[Applause.]

Mr D K MALULEKE: Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move:

That the House -

(1) notes the allegations that the hon Winnie Madikizela-Mandela owes Eskom R50 000;

(2) questions why she was allowed to run up such a large debt without her electricity being cut off while, when ordinary people do not pay, their lights are cut off;

(3) reaffirms its belief that -

   (a)  all people must pay for the services they use; and


   (b)  accurate billing is essential if this is to be enforced;

(4) expects that everyone be treated fairly and equally when decisions are made regarding who is cut off; and

(5) calls on Eskom to do a feasibility study regarding implementing a prepaid meter system in areas where they are unable or unwilling to read meters.

Mr V B NDLOVU: Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the IFP:

That the House -

(1) notes with great sadness and shock that a 10-year-old girl was gang- raped by six boys aged between nine and eleven at Badplaas, Mpumalanga;

(2) sympathises with the young victim and urges the authorities to ensure that they do everything possible to try and ease her pain and suffering; and

(3) calls upon the Child Protection Unit to take the necessary action against the young offenders so as to let them understand the severity of their crime and to prevent them from committing this and other crimes in future.

Ms N E LAMANI: Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the ANC:

That the House -

(1) notes statements made by the United Nations’ Secretary General, Mr Kofi Annan, that the fight against international terrorism should not lead to cases of human rights abuses; (2) believes that this statement is consistent with the approach of the ANC, which calls for the United States not to embark on actions that will harm unarmed and innocent civilians, especially women and children, and the spread of anti-Arabic and anti-Muslim sentiments; and

(3) welcomes the statement by Mr Kofi Annan which cautions those involved in the fight against terrorism not to be involved in human rights abuses.

[Applause.]

Mrs S M CAMERER: Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move:

That the House -

(1) notes with concern the proposed constitutional amendments that allow the national Government to intervene directly in local authorities in the light of the following:

   (a)  these amendments disrupt the system of co-operative governance
       established by the Constitution;


   (b)  besides the DA and the Western Cape government, Cosatu, Salga
       and several ANC-controlled provincial governments have opposed
       these amendments; and


   (c)  Treasury, which initiated the amendments, failed to consult with
       the relevant role-players adequately or at all; and

(2) calls on the Government to withdraw these amendments, which unduly widen the Minister of Finance’s jurisdiction and impact negatively on the powers of provincial and local government, for further consultation and reconsideration.

Mr T ABRAHAMS: Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the UDM:

That the House - (1) recognises that this week is regarded as Public Service Week;

(2) fosters the concept of every week of the year being treated as Public Service Week;

(3) condemns the slackness of officials of the Tygerberg Municipality who, despite having Batho Pele placards stuck on the walls in their buildings, allow unhygienic living conditions to develop in community areas;

(4) calls on the relevant authorities to take the simple steps that are needed to prevent situations like those in Oakdale Court, Clarke Estate in Elsies River, from developing; and

(5) reminds all those who turn to the people with alacrity at election time that it is now time to put the people first.

Mr Q J KGAUWE: Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the ANC: That the House -

(1) notes that -

   (a)  more than 3 500 residents of Guguletu, Nyanga and Crossroads
       marched, showing their determination to stamp out crime in the
       African townships in the Western Cape; and


   (b)  the community pledged to support and work with police in an
       effort to fight crime;

(2) commends the community of Guguletu for its hands-on approach to the eradication of crime; and

(3) calls on all communities and society at large to emulate this good example.

[Applause.]

Rev K R J MESHOE: Madam Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the ACDP:

That the House -

(1) notes -

   (a)  that the Auditor-General, Shauket Fakie, has slammed Government
       spending of over R2 billion on consultants in two financial
       years;


   (b)  that a probe last year found that departments do not always
       sufficiently analyse their needs and requirements before
       appointing consultants;


   (c)  with disapproval that consultants were appointed for services
       that could be provided internally or by other Government
       departments; and


   (d)  with shock that contracts were not always drawn up when
       consultants were appointed, and that they were often appointed
       even when there were staff vacancies;

(2) questions why departments use the services of consultants when they know that they do not have the skills, time or capacity to implement recommendations, as alleged by the Auditor-General; and

(3) calls on all Government departments to reassess their future need of consultants.

Mr J P I BLANCHÉ: Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move:

That the House -

(1) expresses its concern at the shooting of a cargo agent by an armed gang at the cargo section of Johannesburg International Airport;

(2) recognises that this robbery attempt represents a serious security breach at the airport and that, while this event did not pose a threat to airline passengers, it shows that airport security is seriously lacking; and

(3) calls on the Ministers of Safety and Security and for Public Enterprises to take immediate steps to tighten up security at all airports to protect passengers, staff and the country’s economy as a whole.

Mr J J KGARIMETSA: Mr Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the ANC:

That the House -

(1) notes that Comrade Nelson Rolihlahla Mandela was declared the Newsmaker of the Decade by the Johannesburg Press Club;

(2) believes that the honour bestowed on Comrade Madiba is befitting to a person of his stature who is an embodiment of our struggle for democracy and our values and traditions; and

(3) congratulates Comrade Madiba on this accolade.

[Applause.]

Mr M J ELLIS: Mr Chairman, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the DP:

That the House -

(1) notes that in July 2001 the Minister of Health asked for a cumulative total of R2,7 billion in additional funding over the next three years to finance an enhanced response to the HIV/Aids epidemic;

(2) observes that in August President Mbeki sent a letter to the Minister citing outdated 1995 World Health Organisation figures on death rates for South Africa;

(3) recognises that this letter appears to have brought a dramatic turnaround in the Minister of Health’s view on the Aids budget, in that yesterday she had said that the Aids budget was already sufficient;

(4) acknowledges that this is only one of a number of other times when the Minister has changed her mind about Aids as a result of statements by the President; and (5) calls on the Minister to take a stand against President Mbeki’s bizarre opinions on Aids and to adopt a consistent policy.

Mrs I MARS: Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the IFP:

That the House -

(1) takes note of the fact that the Minister of Social Development has launched an audit of the National Development Agency;

(2) further takes note of allegations that the National Development Agency has distributed only 25% of the funds available to the non- governmental sector since April 2000; and

(3) calls on the Minister to complete the audit as soon as possible, and to report its findings to Parliament as soon as possible.

Ms O R KASIENYANE: Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the ANC:

That the House -

(1) notes reports that the Human Rights Commission received complaints of the harassment of Muslim girls by their schoolmates following the terror attacks in the United States;

(2) believes that the harassment of young girls of Muslim faith constitutes a gross human rights violation and should be strongly condemned;

(3) calls on the Human Rights Commission to expedite investigation into this matter; and

(4) calls on parents, communities and all other stakeholders to sensitise school-going children to religious tolerance as a cornerstone of our democracy.

[Applause.] Mnr F BEUKMAN: Mnr die Voorsitter, ek gee hiermee kennis dat ek op die volgende sittingsdag sal voorstel:

Dat die Huis -

(1) daarvan kennis neem dat -

   (a)  die Parlement se vertraging in die verwerking van die Immigrasie-
       wetsontwerp 'n ernstige terugslag is om kundige en goed
       opgeleide persone in Suid-Afrika te werf en te behou, én 'n nuwe
       grondslag vir migrasiekontrole daar te stel;


   (b)  die ANC-komponent van die Portefeuljekomitee oor Binnelandse
       Sake gister geweier het om 'n stemmingsmosie toe te laat ten
       einde die hantering van die wetsontwerp te versnel; en


   (c)  verdere vertraging 'n ernstige belemmering op die Minister en
       Departement van Binnelandse Sake plaas om hulle mandaat uit te
       voer; en

(2) ‘n beroep doen op President Mbeki en Adjunkpresident Zuma om persoonlik in te gryp ten einde te verseker dat die Immigrasie- wetsontwerp so gou doenlik en as voorkeurwetgewing deur die Regering en die Parlement gehanteer word. (Translation of Afrikaans notice of motion follows.)

[Mr F BEUKMAN: Mr Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day I shall move:

That the House -

(1) notes that -

   (a)  Parliament's delay in processing the Immigration Bill is a
       serious setback to the recruitment and retention of skilled and
       well-trained people in South Africa, as well as the development
       of a new basis for migration control;


   (b)  the ANC component of the Portfolio Committee on Home Affairs
       yesterday refused to allow a motion calling for a vote in order
       to facilitate the passage of this Bill; and


   (c)  any further delay will seriously hamper the Minister and the
       Department of Home Affairs in exercising their mandate; and

(2) appeals to President Mbeki and Deputy President Zuma to intervene personally in order to make sure that the Immigration Bill is dealt with as soon as possible, and as priority legislation, by the Government and by Parliament.]

Mr M N RAMODIKE: Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the UDM:

That the House -

(1) notes that the latest warnings of fuel shortages come as a shock to hundreds of thousands of hard-pressed consumers and commuters, and that the possibility of another fuel price hike adds to their burden;

(2) recognises that -

   (a)  for the Government fuel remains a cash cow and the arguments
       made in favour of excessive regulation and levies ring hollow;


   (b)  the rising cost of fuel is blamed on international oil prices,
       but does not take into account the high levies that the
       Government includes in the price; and


   (c)  the argument for strict regulation is even sillier, because the
       nation is expected to believe that the Government wants to
       protect a strategic economic asset on behalf of consumers, but
       cannot explain the fuel shortages; and

(3) calls on the Government to keep long-standing promises of deregulating the industry.

Ms N S MTSWENI: Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the ANC:

That the House -

(1) notes that the South African Revenue Service launched criminal courts to deal with people who are evading tax;

(2) believes that the launching of this court reflects the seriousness of the Government to deal with individuals and companies who do not comply with their obligation to pay tax; and

(3) welcomes the launching of this new court.

[Applause.]

Mrs C DUDLEY: Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the ACDP:

That the House -

(1) notes -

   (a)  with horror that on 28 October 1999, a young 12-year-old girl's
       future was completely shattered when she was raped and almost
       stabbed to death;
   (b)  that she sustained multiple stab wounds in the back, chest and
       stomach as well as the face and one of the stabs she received
       penetrated her spine and she is now paralysed for life; and


   (c)  that her face needed stitches and her whole little body was
       riddled with stab wounds and bruises; and

(2) calls on the Minister for Justice and Constitutional Development to -

   (a)  see that justice is done and that the perpetrator of this crime,
       who has been caught, does not get off lightly; and


   (b)  tighten up the parole laws so that communities do not have to
       live in fear knowing such criminals will soon be free to roam
       their streets again.

               MARCH TO COMBAT CRIME ON THE CAPE FLATS

                         (Draft Resolution)

Miss S RAJBALLY: Chairperson, I move without notice:

That the House -

(1) acknowledges the cries to combat crime as many took to the streets in the Guguletu/Nyanga areas on the Cape Flats;

(2) notes that during a march organised by the local police, the community policing forum and other organisations united their voices to stamp out crime;

(3) applauds the unity that this depicts, ensuring a good working relationship between the Government and the public; and

(4) supports these initiatives, as a united effort is sure to meet its ends.

Agreed to.

                   POSTAL SERVICES AMENDMENT BILL

                       (Second Reading debate) The MINISTER OF COMMUNICATIONS: Chairperson and hon members, it is with pleasure that I present to the House the Postal Services Amendment Bill for deliberation and adoption. The purpose of the amendments is to achieve a number of things, but I would like to thank all parties for the manner in which they handled this Bill and the support they have given the department.

The Bill intends to restructure the Postal Regulator. The Postal Services Act of 1998 paved the way for the transformation of the postal sector. Some sections of the Act came into operation in January 1999 and the remainder of the Act on 1 April 2000. One of the key provisions of the Act was the establishment of the Postal Regulator, thereby making South Africa one of the first SADC countries to have a separation between postal and telecommunications regulators.

Recently it has become clear that the mandate and the composition of the Postal Regulator needed to be reworked. According to the current law the Regulator consists of two persons, one of whom is the most senior in the postal policy business unit of the department, as the chairperson of the Regulator, and the other one is appointed by the Minister for a period of five years. Therefore, there is no separation between the Postal Policy Unit and the Regulator, the chairperson of the Regulator also being the head of the Postal Policy Unit.

The amendments therefore provide for the Regulator to consist of three members, one of whom will be chairperson, appointed by the Minister for five years, and the other two being officials of the department designated by the Minister.

The second area is the provision of an insurer for insurance of postal articles. The amendment seeks to empower the Post Office to insure postal articles in accordance with international practice, without being registered as an insurer in terms of the Insurance Act.

The third area that the Bill addresses is the increase of offices to accept and administer returned letters and undelivered postal articles, because the proposed amendment will allow for the establishment of offices throughout the country to accept and administer undelivered postal articles. Currently, in terms of the Act, only one returned letter office is permitted. For practical purposes there is a need to expand the number of offices to deal with the backlog and prepare for additional items coming into the system.

The fourth area is the increase in the penalty for the operation of postal services without a licence or a registration certificate. According to the Act, any operator found guilty of operating postal services without the necessary authority will be liable for a fine or imprisonment for a period not exceeding two years. The proposal in the Bill is that this period be increased to five years.

These are the proposals that we have made, and I therefore invite the House to adopt this Bill. [Applause.]

Mr M WATERS: Mr Chairman, I have learnt a lot today. I have learnt that denying people the vote, no principle of freedom of speech and locking up gays and lesbians into conditioning camps are not considered human rights abuses by the ANC. [Interjections.]

Be that as it may, it is no wonder that the ANC in the portfolio committee tried to prevent a debate on this Bill in the House today. With all the negative publicity the Post Office has generated over the past two years, more particularly in the last month, one would think that the portfolio committee would have played a more vigorous oversight role. Even my appeal in February for the Post Office officials to appear before us fell on deaf ears. Neither Parliament nor the portfolio committee has deemed it fit to discuss the issues in an open forum.

In total, we must have spent a mere five hours on the Post Office in our committee. That includes deliberations on this Bill that we are discussing today.

The DA welcomes the frank and honest talk by the new CEO of the Post Office while deliberating the Bill. His comments were refreshing, to say the least. We have a great deal of faith in Mr Manyatshei, and we would like to thank him for his honesty in this regard.

This Bill seeks to amend the principal Act. One of these amendments is that the Regulator be expanded from two to three persons. Some of the responsibilities of the Regulator include exercising regulatory functions in respect of the reserved and unreserved postal services. This includes the issuing of licences.

The Post Office Act, which came into effect on 1 April last year, stipulated that the Post Offices needed a licence to operate. This licence was not issued until July 2001, some 16 months after the commencement of this Act, meaning that the Post Office was operating illegally for this period. Similarly, courier companies wishing to operate in the unreserved mail arena also have to apply for licences. However, no licences have yet been awarded. It is believed by sources within the Post Office that some conditions of the licence still have to be fine-tuned and that negotiations continue, despite the licence recently being signed.

The Regulator also has to ensure that a universal postage service to all citizens becomes a reality. This can only be done if the Post Office has the funds to roll out its services. However, the Minister seems determined to make it as difficult as possible for the Post Office to fulfil this goal, as she failed to proclaim the postage increases on 1 April this year to coincide with the beginning of the financial year. Instead, it took the hon the Minister some six weeks to proclaim the increases, costing the Post Office millions of rands, money which it had actually budgeted as income for this financial year.

Another amendment to the Act clarifies the ambiguity concerning the mass or size of what is considered reserved mail, that is where the Post Office enjoys a monopoly. However, even with this monopoly, the Post Office still took the bizarre decision to give the former CEO, Mr Frank Touwen, two cheques of R500 000 each as payment for restraint of trade. In other words, we paid a person R1 million to prevent him from competing with an institution which has a national monopoly in any case.

One objective of this Act is to promote a culture of saving by means of the Post Bank. Need I say more? We all know for a fact that the Post Office has indeed had to borrow nearly R1 billion from the Post Bank. We all note the confusing and sometimes contradictory statements that have been coming out of the department and the Post Office in respect of their financial arrangements.

If we are to encourage savings in the Post Bank, then surely all accounts, be it those of the Post Bank or the Post Office, should be kept separate and not mixed up together, as the Minister has alluded to. The information I have clearly contradicts the Minister on this point. We have dozens of pages of documents showing transactions between the Post Bank and the Post Office. [Interjections.] It does not matter where I got them. [Interjections.] These figures are available for the perusal of the Minister herself, if she so wishes. These figures indicate clearly and exactly how much is owed to the Post Bank by the Post Office.

The interest charged by the Post Bank is a mere 9%, well below that of the market rate, which the Post Bank could have been earning in the open market. One also has to ask: If the money is all mixed up in one account, as the Minister claims it is, how can the Post Bank then charge the Post Office interest on money that belongs to both or neither of them?

According to the department the loan is guaranteed by Government, leading one to ask: Why then is Government guaranteeing a loan from itself to itself at a rate of 9%, when it actually does not know whose money is whose; and what was borrowed from whom or lent to whom? The answer is quite simple. The records are kept separate and the Minister and her department know exactly what the situation is in this regard. It is this, namely that the Post Office needed immediate bridging finance at a rate it could afford to extricate itself from the consequences of severe financial mismanagement.

I would just like to bring to the House’s attention that, despite assurances from the department, 14 of my questions on the Question Paper still remain unanswered. [Interjections.] While my ANC colleagues may think this is quite amusing, it shows a lack of respect for Parliament as a democratic institution and undermines its oversight role. [Applause.]

Ms S C VOS: Chairperson, the IFP has from the outset supported the technical amendments in the Postal Services Amendment Bill. There is simply nothing to argue about. The Bill creates clarity in the name of the Postal Regulator. The Postal Regulator will now consist of three persons; various ambiguities have been clarified; and sexist language has been deleted and consumer protection enhanced with regard to matters relating to the insurance of postal articles. So this Bill is not the reason why the DA insisted on this debate. It wanted to use this opportunity, as it has done, to highlight that the Post Office is in a mess. Fair enough, we all know that it is in a state of unmitigated turmoil and, with respect, it is not true that the committee has ignored what is going on in the Post Office. We have been acutely aware that there are problems and we have also spoken of the need to spend much more time dealing with them.

The newly appointed CEO of the Post Office last week gave the Portfolio Committee on Communications a stunningly honest and graphic account of the myriad horrible problems facing him - systemic and endemic fraud, the corrupt and disloyal behaviour of employees at all levels, and so forth.

That was and is bad news, of course. But the good news is that the new CEO is obviously a person of calibre and competence, who impressed all the members of the committee, as acknowledged by Mr Waters, with his commitment to diligently and effectively reversing this awful situation. We believe that he is a person of integrity, who must be supported in this difficult quest. He must be given time and he needs to know that we have confidence in him. The IFP is therefore not going to add to his problems by negatively reiterating the litany of woes within his organisation, about which he is innocent and with which he is only too familiar. Instead, the IFP, while fully cognisant of the issues not of his making, intends to monitor progress, however painfully slow we believe it may be, because he will not be able to turn the Post Office around overnight, and to assist in constructively supporting him and motivating whatever resources he may require to assure his success. We therefore support this Bill and all efforts to make the Post Office a relevant and competent service provider to all citizens of South Africa.

Mnr J J DOWRY: Voorsitter, die Posdienswysigingswetsontwerp bevat ‘n paar geringe amendemente, wat uiters noodsaaklik is vir die beter funksionering van die Poskantoor. Die reguleerder gaan meebring dat Suid-Afrika weer aan die voorpunt van vordering gaan staan. Ons is een van die eerste lande wat hierdie skeiding bring tussen die Poskantoor en Telekommunikasie, soos die Minister nou tereg opgemerk het.

Die daarstelling van ‘n reguleerder bestaande uit drie lede, waarvan net die voorsitter ‘n finansiële verpligting op die staat sal hê, hou nie net die koste laag nie, maar sal ook help dat die Poskantoor se sake goed gereguleer kan word. Die feit is dat mense wat hierdie wet gaan oortree en buite die wet met posdienste omgaan ‘n swaarder straf opgelê sal word as wat voorheen die geval was.

Die nuwe hoofbestuurder skyn ook ‘n vars briesie te wees in die andersins gestremde organisasie. Hy het onmiddellik oop kaarte begin speel met die Departement van Kommunikasie, en die publiek, oor die stand van sake by die Poskantoor ingelig. Wanneer ons verneem dat die Poskantoor se pensioenskema met R2 miljard in die skuld is en die aktuariële verpligtings die bates met 227% oorskry, en daar word aan die vorige hoof R1 miljoen betaal sodat hy net beloof om nie ‘n soortgelyke besigheid te open nie, dan flikker die rooi gevaarligte. Daar kan met reg beweer word dat die Minister ‘n verduideliking aan die Huis en die bevolking verskuldig is. Daarom wil ons die Minister versoek om die verslag van die ondersoek na korrupsie in die Poskantoor so gou moontlik bekend te maak, sodat gepaste optrede ingestel kan word om die Poskantoor te herstel. Ons wil die hoop uitspreek dat die ondersoek ook deeglik na die personeel se optrede sal kyk, want alles dui daarop dat hulp van binne die Poskantoor aan mense met duistere motiewe gegee word. So byvoorbeeld verkoop die Poskantoor sy vloot voertuie vir R37 miljoen en huur dit dan weer terug vir R107 miljoen. Sodra ‘n Poskantoor gesluit word, is daar onmiddellik ‘n private posdiensleweraar wat op daardie spesifieke plek ‘n nuwe diens open. Hoe weet hulle vooraf om reg te wees, as iemand van binne nie vir hulle hulp gee nie? Ons hoop mnr Manyatse sal sukses behaal in sy pogings om die Poskantoor weer op ‘n gesonde en ‘n winsgewende grondslag te plaas. Ons wens hom alle sterkte toe. Die Nuwe NP steun hierdie wysigingswetsontwerp. [Applous.] (Translation of Afrikaans speech follows.)

[Mr J J DOWRY: Chairperson, the Postal Services Amendment Bill contains a few minor amendments that are essential for the Post Office to function better. The regulator is going to place South Africa at the forefront of progress once again. We are one of the first countries to introduce this separation of the Post Office and Telecommunications, as the Minister has just said.

The introduction of a regulator, consisting of three members, of whom only the chairperson will have a financial obligation to the state, not only keeps the costs down, but also helps the Post Office to regulate its affairs well. The fact of the matter is that people who transgress this law and deal with postal services in an irregular manner will be given heavier sentences than before.

The new managing director also appears to be a fresh breeze in an otherwise impeded organisation. He immediately put his cards on the table in respect of the Department of Communications, as well as informing the public about the state of affairs at the Post Office. When we hear that the pension scheme of the Post Office is in debt to the tune of R2 billion and that the actuarial obligations exceed the assets by 227% and that the previous head is being paid R1 million simply for the promise that he would not open a similar business, then the red danger lights are flashing. One may quite rightly allege that the Minister owes the House and the population an explanation. That is why we want to request the Minister as soon as possible to publish the report of the investigation into corruption in the Post Office, so that appropriate action can be taken to restore the Post Office. We want to express the hope that the investigation will also take a good look at the conduct of the staff, because everything indicates that people with sinister motives must have received help from people within the Post Office. So, for example, the Post Office sold its fleet of vehicles for R37 million and rented it back again for R10 million. As soon as a Post Office is closed down, straight away there is a private postal deliverer who starts a new service in that particular place. How do they know beforehand that they should be ready if someone on the inside does not assist them? We hope Mr Manyatse will achieve success in his efforts once again to place the Post Office on a sound and profitable footing. We wish him everything of the best. The New NP supports this amending Bill. [Applause.]]

Mr S ABRAM: Chairperson, I want to congratulate the new CEO of the Post Office. I believe that he has the resolve to turn the Post Office around. He needs the assistance and co-operation of every role-player in order to do so and achieve this objective.

Everything is not right in the Post Office. Serious intervention is necessary and we trust that the Ministry will pay attention to this. But for now I believe that these problems need to be addressed in another forum.

Here I wish to address the Bill before us. The long title spells out all the objects of the Bill, and the various amendments seek to put the definition of a regulator in perspective. They also seek to create an additional vacancy in the Regulator’s office. The Regulator and two others will carry out that function. Some of the amendments seek to provide for the insurance of mail and other postal articles, which I believe is more consumer friendly, and which will help.

In clauses 9 and 10 the various sizes and dimensions of mail are provided for. It is also necessary to bring them into line with modern-day requirements. In clause 12 provision is made for the retention of the current incumbent in the post of director until this law comes into effect and a regulator is appointed.

In short, we in the UDM have no hesitation in supporting the Bill, but we call on the Minister to put the necessary machinery in place to address the other ills in the Post Office, and not to leave it to the CEO alone. Unfortunately, I need to agree completely with my colleague Mr Dowry that there is ``inside information’’. There are people who are in high positions in the Post Office who seem to be involved in corruption and wrongdoing. We need to act swiftly to give the Post Office a good name and a clean bill of health.

Miss S RAJBALLY: Chair, the MF notes that this Bill amends the Postal Services Act of 1998 by amending the definition and the composition of the Postal Regulator so as to dispose of the chairperson as the most senior person in the Postal Policy Division of the department. The MF, however, is disappointed by the failure of unreserved postal service providers to apply for registration to the Regulator within 90 days from 1 April 2000.

The MF notes that even though proposals have been made to reaccommodate an allocated time for service providers to do this, a matter such as this should have received priority, and we suggest that a mechanism should be introduced for such deadlines to be met. The MF finds the proposal to allow the Post Office to insure mail and postal articles most accommodating and reassuring. The MF also compliments the provision made in the light of undelivered articles, and notes the positive impact of the provision in this Bill with regard to ensuring better service delivery and handling of postal articles.

The MF supports the Postal Services Amendment Bill.

Mr C AUCAMP: Chairperson, the AEB supports any measure to improve the situation of the Post Office in South Africa. I think it is very necessary. As a matter of fact, only last week one of the Apostle Paul’s letters arrived in Tabazimbi. [Laughter.]

Dit is nodig dat hierdie diens verbeter word, en daarom steun ons hierdie wetswysiging. Ons het dit deurgegaan. Elke enkele bepaling lyk vir ons positief, veral ook die vereiste van meriete in plaas van senioriteit by die aanstel van die voorsitter van die Reguleerder.

Dit is egter duidelik dat hierdie debat nie eintlik handel oor hierdie wetswysiging nie, want dit is voor die hand liggend. Hierdie debat handel oor die talle probleme wat daar wel in die Poskantoor bestaan. Party lede het hul goeie reg gebruik om hierdie sake hier aan te spreek. Ons meld die groot skuld by die Posspaarbank en die kwessies van korrupsie en ``inside information’’.

Mag hierdie debat daartoe lei dat die Poskantoor se naam weer in ere herstel word. Ons doen ‘n beroep op die Minister om die kritiek wat hier opkom ernstig op te neem en te kyk dat hierdie sake in orde gebring word. Wetgewing alleen is nie genoeg nie. Uitvoering is ook noodsaaklik. Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)

[It is necessary that this service be improved, and therefore we support this statutory amendment. We have gone through it. Every single provision seems positive to us, especially also the requirement of merit instead of seniority in the appointment of the chairperson of the Regulator.

However, it is clear that this debate does not actually deal with this statutory amendment, because that is obvious. This debate deals with the many problems that exist within the Post Office. Some members have availed themselves of their right to address these issues here. We refer to the major debt in the case of the Post Office Savings Bank and the issues of corruption and inside information.

May this debate lead to the name of the Post Office being honourably restored. We appeal to the Minister to take the criticism that is raised here seriously and to see to it that these issues are put to rights. Legislation alone is not enough. Implementation is also necessary.]

Mr N N KEKANA: Chairperson, the postal sector is critical for the growth and development of our country, and it is an integral part of the information and communication infrastructure. But we need to know that the postal sector, for those who do not have addresses, is also about restoring dignity and ensuring that our people have an identity. The ANC cares about the welfare of the Post Office and we need to ensure that we develop a high- quality postal system in the country.

However, let me contextualise some of the problems that Mr Waters seems to be raising here and seems to be concerned about. The DP relies on leaks from inside the Post Office in order to sabotage and undermine investigations that are taking place at the Post Office. [Interjections.] That is a fact. We have full confidence in the CEO of the Post Office and we are saying to the DP: Give this new leadership a chance to conduct the investigations and to ensure that we clean up the Post Office once and for all.

What the DP is not telling us is that for over 300 years the Post Office has been operating without a licence. That licence is grandfathered. If Mr Waters really does his homework, instead of relying on leaks, he will understand what it means to grandfather a licence. Mr Waters and the DP are being used by those who fear the investigations that are taking place at the Post Office, and we are saying to them that these people have been milking the Post Office for many years, even before 1994, that their days are numbered, and that the DP is being used to sabotage the investigations that are taking place there.

We as a committee have agreed to host the Post Office for an in-depth briefing. But the DP, in our last briefing, said that they did not want an in-depth, in-camera briefing so that they could get all the information that was required for us to make informed decisions. They completely rejected the offer that was made by the Post Office. We do not want members of Parliament who rely on leaks. We want better informed members of Parliament so that we can, once and for all, put our hands on the corruption in the Post Office. [Interjections.]

We say to our Minister: Please work together with the new CEO and the new management that is building around her. But there are still people, at high- level management, who are continuously undermining the work of every CEO that has been introduced at the Post Office. We call on the CEO as well as his new management and say: Please beware and do not be compromised because the other leadership at the Post Office was compromised by these corrupt elements that are continuing to milk the Post Office.

Another thing I would like to mention here is that the postal sector, as I have said, is critical for our development, and needs to face competition. But in order for it to face competition, we have created in this particular piece of legislation a regulator that will begin to understand the challenges of competition and ensure that the Post Office is able to face this incoming competition.

Lastly, a point that we have also introduced in this particular piece of legislation is that there are people who are currently operating illegally. They, as the other hon member has mentioned here, do not apply for licences or authorisation. We are calling on them please to apply to the Regulator, or else, as the committee has agreed, they will face stiff penalties, including imprisonment of up to five years.

So we are appealing for order in the postal sector. Let everybody co- operate with the new Regulator that is being created, and let us give the leadership of the Post Office a chance to address all these problems that we have inherited from the neglect of so many years due to the apartheid system that the DP and the New NP created and supported for all these years. [Applause.]

The MINISTER OF COMMUNICATIONS: Chairperson, I would like to thank the members who have been able to analyse why we have this debate today, in particular the analysis that was made by the hon member Suzanne Vos. I think, what we are really debating here is not the Bill itself, but really what the DP wanted to put forward.

I would like to say to the hon member Mr Waters that indeed he has asked me several questions. What that hon member has not said, which I have publicly said several times, is that when we did the investigation it was long before he and his party had actually obtained kind of information.

In 1999, we started an investigation in the Post Office, because one knew something was not right about the information that one was getting. So, this investigation was not started by them. It was only afterwards, and as we opened one can of worms, two other cans jumped open. [Laughter.]

However, what is very strange is the leaks that are coming out of the Post Office via Mr Waters and his friends. What has not happened is, in fact, getting the information about those who are sabotaging the business of the Post Office, both inside and outside. They want the information from us, instead of their giving us the information. The people inside the Post Office who do give him the information know who these people are, but we will find them.

As I was listening to Mr Dowry and Mr Aucamp … [Interjections.]

Ons sal alles in ons vermoë doen om seker te maak dat die Poskantoor se eer herstel word, maar dit sal ‘n tydsame proses wees. Dit het in 1999 begin en dit is nou twee jaar later, maar ons sal daar uitkom, want ons het immers gesê: Ons sal ons skouer aan die wiel sit.

Niemand sal enige inligting uit my of die departement kan kry, alvorens ons seker is dat ons die skuldiges sal kan vasvat nie. Ons wil seker maak dat niemand sal vryspring nie. Ek wil nie een-vir-een antwoorde gee nie. Ek maak seker mense weet na wie ons kyk en na wie ons nie kyk nie. Ek kan dit nie sê tot ons seker is dat ons hulle hier het nie. [Tussenwerpsels.]

Ons hoor dikwels van die R1 miljard wat die Poskantoor geleen het. Ek weet nie waar die geld vandaan kom nie, want ek het nie R1 miljard nie. Miskien sal mnr Waters vir my kan sê waar die geld vandaan kom. Ons sal nog steeds daarna kyk. Een van die redes waarom ons sulke hoë kostes het … (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)

[We will do everything in our power to ensure that the honour of the Post Office is restored, but this will be a slow process. It started in 1999 and it is now two years later, but we will get to it still, because we have indeed said: we will put our shoulder to the wheel.

No one will be able to get any information from me or the department before we are certain that we can bring the culprits to book. We want to ensure that no one gets away. I do not want to give answers one by one. I am trying to ensure that people know who we are looking at and who we are not looking at. I cannot say that before we are sure that we have them here. [Interjections.]

We often hear about the R1 billion the Post Office borrowed. I do not know where the money comes from, because I do not have R1 billion. Perhaps Mr Waters could tell me where the money comes from. We will, however, still look into that issue. One of the reasons why we have such high costs …]

We must look at the pension or the medical aid scheme for pensioners.

Die feit dat ons pensioentrekkers het wat al lankal pensioen trek, hou sekere gevolge vir ons in. [The fact that we have pensioners who have been drawing pensions for a long time has certain implications!]

It has implications for us. That is also part of the problem. So, we must not just look at certain things, we must also make sure that we do give the support to the current chief executive.

Ek het lank gesoek na hom. [I looked for him for a long time.]

It was a long process. But we eventually found somebody whom we could trust to take us there. However, I must tell the House that all mechanisms are now being employed to compromise, sacrifice and …

… as ons nie help nie … [… if we do not assist …]

… if we do not assist, we might find that he is unable to carry that burden that we have placed on him.

So, I really welcome the views of the members of this committee that asked us, unreservedly, to give him the support. We do hope that we will be able to eventually submit a report to this House, reporting on how far we have gone with some of the investigations.

Some of the investigations will continue for a while. But regarding those that have been concluded, we will make sure that we can link up someone, some people and some institutions, some of whom are big business institutions. If we can tie them to those things we will be able to say that this part of the report is complete. However, we hope that when we do so, we will get the support of the opposition in particular. They should be able to say that the good work started by this Government was done well and, hopefully, brought to conclusion by this Government. [Interjections.] [Applause.]

Debate concluded.

Bill read a second time.

The House adjourned at 18:01. ____

            ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS

                      FRIDAY, 21 SEPTEMBER 2001

ANNOUNCEMENTS:

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces:

1. The Speaker and the Chairperson:

 (1)    Assent by the President of the Republic in respect of the
     following Bill:


              Consumer Affairs (Unfair Business Practices) Amendment
              Bill [B 28B - 2001] - Act No 21 of 2001 (assented to and
              signed by President on 20 September 2001).


 (2)    The following Bills were introduced by the Minister of Trade and
     Industry in the National Assembly on 21 September 2001 and
     referred to the Joint Tagging Mechanism (JTM) for classification
     in terms of Joint Rule 160:


     (i)     Copyright Amendment Bill [B 73 - 2001] (National Assembly
           - sec 75) [Explanatory summary of Bill and prior notice of
           its introduction published in Government Gazette No 22249 of
           24 April 2001.]


     (ii)    Performers' Protection Amendment Bill [B 74 - 2001]
           (National Assembly - sec 75) [Explanatory summary of Bill
           and prior notice of its introduction published in Government
           Gazette No 22249 of 24 April 2001.]


     The Bills have also been referred to the Portfolio Committee on
     Trade and Industry of the National Assembly.


     In terms of Joint Rule 154 written views on the classification of
     the Bill may be submitted to the Joint Tagging Mechanism (JTM)
     within three parliamentary working days.


 (3)    The following Bill was introduced by the Minister of Finance in
     the National Assembly on 21 September 2001 and referred to the
     Joint Tagging Mechanism (JTM) for classification in terms of Joint
     Rule 160:
     (i)     Stock Exchanges Control Amendment Bill [B 75 - 2001]
          (National Assembly - sec 75) [Explanatory summary of Bill and
          prior notice of its introduction published in Government
          Gazette No 22699 of 21 September 2001.]


     The Bill has also been referred to the Portfolio Committee on
     Finance of the National Assembly.


     In terms of Joint Rule 154 written views on the classification of
     the Bill may be submitted to the Joint Tagging Mechanism (JTM)
     within three parliamentary working days.


 (4)    The Minister of Finance on 20 September 2001 submitted a draft
     of the Stock Exchanges Control Amendment Bill, 2001, as well as
     the memorandum explaining the objects of the proposed legislation,
     to the Speaker and the Chairperson in terms of Joint Rule 159. The
     draft has been referred to the Portfolio Committee on Finance and
     the Select Committee on Finance by the Speaker and the
     Chairperson, respectively, in accordance with Joint Rule 159(2). TABLINGS:

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces:

Papers:

1. The Minister of Foreign Affairs:

 Report and Financial Statements of the Department of Foreign Affairs
 for 2000-2001, including the Report of the Auditor-General on the
 Financial Statements of Vote 11 - Department of Foreign Affairs for
 2000-2001 [RP 139-2001].

National Assembly:

1. The Minister of Public Enterprises:

 Letter from the Minister of Public Enterprises in terms of section
 65(2)(a) of the Public Finance Management Act, 1999 (Act No 1 of 1999)
 setting out the reasons why Transnet Limited could not table its Annual
 Report and Financial Statements for 2000-2001 in time:


     Explanatory Note


     In terms of Section 55(1)(d) of The Public Finance Management Act,
     1999 (Act No 1 of 1999), (PFMA), as amended, Transnet had to
     submit its Annual Report and financial statements to, inter alia,
     the Executive Authority (Minister of Public Enterprises) within
     five months of the end of the financial year, ie 31 March 2001.
     The Executive Authority in turn must, in accordance with Section
     65(1)(a) of the PFMA, table Transnet's Annual Report in Parliament
     within one month after receiving it.


     For the information of Honourable Members it should be explained,
     however, that the subdivision of the Transnet Pension Fund into
     three separate pension funds has caused a delay in the audit of
     these funds. In addition, an actuarial valuation of the funds has
     to be conducted after the audit is complete.


     The Pension Fund restructuring has resulted in a delay in
     finalizing the Transnet financial statements and it was
     unfortunately not possible for Transnet to submit the Annual
     Report to the Executive Authority by 31 August 2001, as prescribed
     by the PFMA.


     Having regard to the dilemma in which Transnet Ltd finds itself,
     the Minister of Finance has concurred that the date by which the
     Annual Report must be submitted to the Executive Authority be
     extended by two months from 31 August to 31 October, 2001.
     Consequently, Transnet's Annual report will be tabled in
     Parliament not later than 30 November 2001.


     This Explanatory Note is tabled in terms of Section 65(2)(a) of
     the Public Finance Management Act.

COMMITTEE REPORTS:

National Assembly:

1. Report of the Portfolio Committee on Minerals and Energy on the Gas Bill [B 18 - 2001] (National Assembly - sec 75), dated 19 September 2001: The Portfolio Committee on Minerals and Energy, having considered the subject of the Gas Bill [B 18 - 2001] (National Assembly - sec 75), referred to it and classified by the Joint Tagging Mechanism as a section 75 Bill, reports the Bill with amendments [B 18A - 2001].

 The Committee further reports as follows:


 A.     Stakeholder briefings


     On 7 May 2001, the Bill was introduced in the National Assembly
     and referred to the Committee.  The Committee held a number of
     stakeholder briefings on the Bill and also advertised for written
     comments nationally.  Stakeholders who had submitted responses to
     the Department of Minerals and Energy when the Bill was still in
     draft form, were also approached to address the Committee on the
     Bill.


     1. The following oral presentations were received during the
          stakeholder briefings:


          *Eskom
          *National Electricity Regulator
          *Afrikaanse Handelsinstituut
          *Petronet
          *James Hodge, of the Commerce Department,  UCT
          *Sasol
          *Shell
          *Cinergy Global Power


     2. The Committee also received the following written submissions:


          *BP
          *Texaco Namibia Resources
          *Institute of Civil Engineering
          *Forest Exploration International
          *LP Gas Association
          *Afrox
          *Prof Anton Eberhad


     3. The Department of Minerals and Energy prepared detailed
          responses to the submissions received, and where applicable,
          amendments were proposed to the Bill.
 B.     Mozambique Gas Fields Study Tour


     The Committee undertook a study tour of the Mozambique Gas Fields
     and the Sasol synthetic fuels plant in Secunda from 7 to 9 June.
     Sasol hosted the study tour, in the light of the proposed project
     to bring natural gas from Mozambique to South Africa.


     During the Secunda leg of the study tour, the Committee was taken
     on an extensive tour of the Sasol 2 synthetic fuels plant.
     Sasol's Management then presented its plans for establishing a
     natural gas industry in South Africa, which included the following
     aspects:


     1. Upstream
          The relevant gas fields, Pande and Temane, are owned by Sasol
          Petroleum International (SPI), with a minority shareholding by
          the Mozambique government.  SPI has done extensive exploration
          in the area.  SPI will develop the existing wells, and build a
          large gas processing facility in the area.
     2. Pipeline


          Current plans for the pipeline are that it will be funded 50%
          by Sasol and 50% by the South African and the Mozambican
          governments. The pipeline will cover 895 km, and will be 26
          feet in diameter. The total uncompressed capacity will be 120
          million GJ per year, rising to 40 GJ with compression.


     3. Downstream


          Sasol outlined the current market situation: The current Sasol
          gas network, fed with methane-rich gas from Secunda and
          hydrogen-rich gas from Sasolburg, constitutes a market of 40
          million GJ. The main anchor customer, however, will be
          Sasolburg, which will convert from coal to gas, with
          considerable cost and environmental advantages.


          Sasol will thus need to grow the market considerably to use
          the full capacity of the pipeline. Detailed growth scenarios
          were presented, and the potential for natural gas in various
          sectors of the economy was explored.


          Sasol were critical of the draft gas legislation on the
          grounds that it afforded little protection to infrastructure
          investments after the expiry of the 10-year special
          dispensation.


     Members of the Committee were concerned about the amount of gas
     reserves in Mozambique.  Sasol informed the Committee that the
     proven reserves (90% probable) would guarantee 120 million GJ per
     year for 18 years.  Members considered that at least 25 years of
     proven gas reserves were necessary (at 120 million GJ per annum)
     to justify the special agreement then being negotiated between
     Sasol and the government.  Another issue of concern for members
     was that of natural gas pricing, specifically the question of the
     basis of regulated pricing.


     During the Mozambique leg of the tour, the Committee was joined by
     representatives from the Mozambican government, the South African
     ambassador to Mozambique, Jessie Duarte, and local representatives
     of Sasol and ENH (which owns the Mozambican government's share in
     the gas fields).


     The delegation was taken on a tour of parts of Pande gas field,
     and two wells were visited:


     (a)     The site of a "catastrophic blow-out" in the 1960s, when
          the well ignited and burned for nine months, killing
          vegetation and sterilising the soil in a wide radius.


     (b)     The second well provides a small quantity of gas to
          Villanculos for electricity generation, as well as
          reticulation via a PVC pipe network to homes for cooking. The
          well has a micro-processing facility, which extracts water
          vapour and condensate from the gas and which has been running
          for just under a decade.


     During the study tour, various informal discussions were held.
     These discussions focused on the regulatory aspects of the Bill,
     especially pricing.  From the Mozambican perspective, the
     importance of the development of the gas fields was emphasised.


 C.     Mozambique Gas Pipeline Agreement


     The following agreements formed part of the Committee's
     deliberations on the Bill:


     1. The basis of agreement between the government of South Africa
          and Sasol Limited.


     2. A cross-border Gas Trade Agreement between South Africa and
          Mozambique, to facilitate the trade in natural gas and the
          construction of a pipeline between the two countries.


     During deliberations on the Bill, a definitive Agreement between
     the South African government and Sasol had not yet been finalised.
      Clause 36 of the Bill provides for the Agreement to be binding on
     the Gas Regulator until 10 years after natural gas is first
     received from Mozambique.


     The Committee was not prepared to conclude its deliberations on
     the Bill until such time as a definitive Agreement had been
     finalised and the Committee had sight of the contents thereof.


     The Committee was subsequently briefed on the Agreement, on 11
     September, prior to it going to the Cabinet on 12 September.  On
     19 September, the Agreement was approved by the Cabinet.


     The Agreement consists of a commercial pipeline agreement and a
     regulatory agreement.  Clause 36 of the Bill relates to the
     regulatory agreement between the Minister of Minerals and Energy,
     the Minister of Trade and Industry and Sasol.


 D.     Conclusion


     The Committee wishes to express its appreciation to all
     stakeholders who made submissions to and interacted with it during
     its deliberations on the Bill.


     The Committee further notes the time taken by the Department to
     respond to the points raised in each of the submissions received,
     and is of the opinion that the approach has led to a transparent
     and open process of deliberation on the Bill.


     The Committee further notes that there was considerable agreement
     among all political parties on the amendments to the Bill, the end
     result being implementable legislation to allow for the
     development of the natural gas industry in South Africa.

1. Report of the Portfolio Committee on Trade and Industry on the Merchandise Marks Amendment Bill [B 33 - 2001] (National Assembly - sec 75), dated 19 September 2001:

   The Portfolio Committee on Trade and Industry, having considered the subject of the Merchandise Marks Amendment Bill [B 33 - 2001] (National Assembly - sec 75), referred to it and classified by the Joint Tagging Mechanism as a section 75 Bill, reports the Bill with an amendment [B 33A - 2001]. TUESDAY, 25 SEPTEMBER 2001

ANNOUNCEMENTS:

National Assembly:

1. The Speaker:

 (1)    The following papers have been tabled and are now referred to
     the relevant committees as mentioned below:


     (a)     The following paper is referred to the Standing Committee
          on Public Accounts for consideration and report and to the
          Portfolio Committee on Housing for information:


          Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements of
          Vote 17 - Housing for 1999-2000 [RP 126-2000].


     (b)     The following paper is referred to the Standing Committee
          on Public Accounts for consideration and report and to the
          Portfolio Committee on Transport for information:


          Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements of
          the South African Maritime Safety Authority for 1999-2000 [RP
          15-2000].


     (c)     The following papers are referred to the Standing
          Committee on Public Accounts for consideration and report and
          to the Portfolio Committee on Trade and Industry for
          information:


          (i) Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements
                of the Economic Co-operation Promotion Loans Fund 1999-
                2000 [RP 33-2000].


          (ii)     Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial
                Statements of the Reinsurance Fund for Export Credit and
                Foreign Investments for 1999-2000 [RP 80-2001].


     (d)     The following paper is referred to the Portfolio Committee
          on Transport:


          Report and Financial Statements of the Regulating Committee
          for the Airports Company South Africa and the Air Traffic and
          Navigation Services Companies for 2000-2001.


     (e)     The following paper is referred to the Standing Committee
          on Public Accounts for consideration and report and to the
          Portfolio Committee on Public Works for information:


          Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements of
          Vote 27 - Public Works for 1999-2000 [RP 136-2000].


     (f)     The following paper is referred to the Standing Committee
          on Public Accounts for consideration and report and to the
          Portfolio Committee on Provincial and Local Government for
          information:


          Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements of
          the Disaster Relief Fund for 1997-98, 1998-99 and 1999-2000
          [RP 56-2001].


     (g)     The following paper is referred to the Standing Committee
          on Public Accounts for consideration and report and to the
          Portfolio Committee on Minerals and Energy for information:


          Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements of
          the South African Diamond Board for 1999-2000 [RP 77-2001].


     (h)     The following paper is referred to the Standing Committee
          on Public Accounts for consideration and report and to the
          Portfolio Committee on Communication for information:


          Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements of
          the Independent Broadcasting Authority for 1 April to 30 June
          2000 [RP 81-2001].


     (i)     The following papers are referred to the Standing
          Committee on Public Accounts for consideration and report and
          to the Portfolio Committee on Arts, Culture, Science and
          Technology for information:


          (i) Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements
              of the State Library for 1998-99 [RP 85-2001].


          (ii) Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements
              of the State Library for the period ended 31 October 1999
              [RP 84-2001].


     (j)     The following paper is referred to the Standing Committee
          on Public Accounts for consideration and report and to the
          Portfolio Committee on Agriculture and Land Affairs for
          information:


          Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements of
          the Agricultural Research Council for 1999-2000 [RP 98-2001].


     (k)     The following papers are referred to the Portfolio
          Committee on Justice and Constitutional Development:


          (i) Written comments received from the public and provincial
                 legislatures on the two Constitution of the Republic
                 of South Africa Amendment Bills, 2001, submitted by
                 the Minister for Justice and Constitutional
                 Development in terms of section 74(6)(a) of the
                 Constitution, 1996.


          (ii)     The South African Law Commission's Fifth Interim
                 Report on Aspects of the Law relating to Aids, Project
                 85 [RP 78-2001].


          (iii)    Government Notice No R.521 published in the
                 Government Gazette No 22360 dated 15 June 2001,
                 Amendment of Schedules 1 and 2 to the Drugs and Drug
                 Trafficking Act, 1992, made in terms of section 63 of
                 the Drugs and Drug Trafficking Act, 1992 (Act No 140
                 of 1992).


          (iv)     Government Notice No R.597 published in the
                 Government Gazette No 22435 dated 2 July 2001,
                 Determination under section 170A(4)(a) of the Criminal
                 Procedure Act, 1977 (Act No 51 of 1977), of the
                 persons or the categories or classes of persons who
                 are competent to be appointed as intermediaries.


          (v) Proclamation No R.117 published in the Government Gazette
                 No 22530 dated 27 July 2001, Commencement of the
                 Special Investigating Unit and Special Tribunals
                 Amendment Act, 2001 (Act No 2 of 2001).


          (vi)     Proclamation No R.118 published in the Government
                 Gazette No 22531 dated 31 July 2001, Establishment of
                 the Special Investigating Unit, the Appointment of the
                 Head of the Special Investigating Unit and the
                 Establishment of the Special Tribunal in terms of the
                 Special Investigating Units and Special Tribunals Act,
                 1996 (Act No 74 of 1996).


          (vii)    Government Notice No R.646 published in the
                 Government Gazette No 22469 dated 20 July 2001,
                 Establishment of branch offices of the Office for
                 Witness Protection, made in terms of section 2(2) of
                 the Witness Protection Act, 1998 (Act No 112 of 1998).


     (l)     The following paper is referred to the Portfolio Committee
          on Arts, Culture, Science and Technology:


          Reports of the National Archivist and the State Herald for
          1999-2000 [RP 16-2001].


     (m)     The following papers are referred to the Portfolio
          Committee on Education:


          (i) Manifesto on Values, Education and Democracy.
          (ii)     Values in Education: Celebration of our National
                Symbols.


     (n)     The following paper is referred to the Portfolio Committee
          on Transport. The Report of the Auditor-General contained in
          the following paper is referred to the Standing Committee on
          Public Accounts for consideration and report:


          Report and Financial Statements of the South African Rail
          Commuter Corporation for 2000-2001, including the Report of
          the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements for 2000-2001
          [RP 107-2001].


     (o)     The following paper is referred to the Portfolio Committee
          on Environmental Affairs and Tourism. The Report of the
          Auditor-General contained in the following paper is referred
          to the Standing Committee on Public Accounts for consideration
          and report:


          Financial Statements of the Department of Environmental
          Affairs and Tourism for 2000-2001, inluding the Report of the
          Auditor-General on the Financial Statements for 2000-2001 [RP
          115-2001].


     (p)     The following paper is referred to the Portfolio Committee
          on Home Affairs. The Reports of the Auditor-General contained
          in the following paper are referred to the Standing Committee
          on Public Accounts for consideration and report:


          Financial Statements of the Department of Home Affairs and
          Government Printing Works for 2000-2001, including the Report
          of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements of Vote 14
          - Home Affairs for 2000-2001 and the Report of the Auditor-
          General on the Financial Statements of the Government Printing
          Works Trading Accounts for 2000-2001 [RP 112-2001].


     (q)     The following paper is referred to the Portfolio Committee
          on Social Development. The Report of the Auditor-General
          contained in the following paper is referred to the Standing
          Committee on Public Accounts for consideration and report:


          Report and Financial Statements of the Department of Social
          Development for 2000-2001, including the Report of the Auditor-
          General on the Financial Statements of Vote 35 - Social
          Development for 2000-2001.


     (r)     The following paper is referred to the Portfolio Committee
          on Finance. The Report of the Auditor-General contained in the
          following paper is referred to the Standing Committee on
          Public Accounts for consideration and report:


          Report and Financial Statements of Statistics South Africa for
          2000-2001, including the Report of the Auditor-General on the
          Financial Statements of Vote 31 - Statistics South Africa for
          2000-2001 [RP 103-2001]


     (s)     The following papers are referred to the Portfolio
          Committee on Finance:


          (i) Report and Financial Statements of the South African
              Reserve Bank for 2000-2001.


         (ii) Annual Economic Report of the South African Reserve Bank
              for 2001.


     (t)     The following paper is referred to the Portfolio Committee
          on Public Enterprises. The Report of the Auditor-General
          contained in the following paper is referred to the Standing
          Committee on Public Accounts for consideration and report:


          Report and Financial Statements of the Department of Public
          Enterprises for 2000-2001, including the Report of the Auditor-
          General on the Financial Statements of Vote 23 - Public
          Enterprises [RP 135-2001].


     (u)     The following papers are referred to the Portfolio
          Committee on Water Affairs and Forestry:


          (i) Report and Financial Statements of the Trans-Caledon
              Tunnel Authority for 2000-2001.


         (ii) Report and Financial Statements of the Bloem Water Board
              for 1999-2000.


       (iii) Report and Financial Statements of the Amatola Water Board
              for 1999-2000.


       (v)   The following paper is referred to the Portfolio Committee
             on Agriculture and Land Affairs. The Report of the Auditor-
             General contained in the following paper is referred to the
             Standing Committee on Public Accounts for consideration and
             report:


          Report and Financial Statements of the Agricultural Research
          Council for 2000-2001, including the Report of the Auditor-
          General on the Financial Statements for 2000-2001 [RP 136-
          2001].


     (w)     The following papers are referred to the Portfolio
          Committee on Minerals and Energy. The Report of the Auditor-
          General contained in the following paper is referred to the
          Standing Committee on Public Accounts for consideration and
          report:


          (i) Report and Financial Statements of the National
              Electricity Regulator for 2000-2001, including the Report
              of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements for
              2000-2001 [RP 108-2001].


         (ii) Report and Financial Statements of the Council for Mineral
              Technology (Mintek) for 2000-2001, including the Report
              of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements for
              2000-2001 [RP 110-2001].


     (x)     The following paper is referred to the Portfolio Committee
          on Defence. The Report of the Auditor-General contained in the
          following paper is referred to the Standing Committee on
          Public Accounts for consideration and report:
          Report and Financial Statements of the Department of Defence
          for 2000-2001, including the Report of the Auditor-General on
          the Financial Statements of Vote 7 - Defence for 2000-2001 [RP
          138-2001].


 (2)    The Inter-Parliamentary Union Parliamentary Meeting held in
     Durban on 2 September 2001, adopted the following Final
     Declaration on "Action of Parliaments and their Members in the
     Fight Against Racism, Racial Discrimination, Xenophobia and
     Related Intolerance". The Declaration was presented to the UN
     Conference on 4 September 2001 by the Speaker on behalf of the
     Inter-Parliamentary Union.


          We, the members of Parliament attending the parliamentary
          meeting held on the occasion of the World Conference Against
          Racism, Racial Discrimination, Xenophobia and Related
          Intolerance, declare that racism violates the fundamental
          human right to equality and denies millions of human beings
          all over the world the full enjoyment of both their civil and
          political rights and their social, economic and cultural
          rights. It is our belief that the prevalence of armed conflict
          in many parts of the world has resulted in worsening poverty.
          The displacement of populations in circumstances that give
          rise to tension has generated forced population movements in
          search of new lives and opportunities. We are equally of the
          opinion that although modern technology brings people closer
          and has the potential of giving great benefits to humankind,
          it can also hasten the spread of racist ideas and intolerance
          towards others. No country can claim to be free from racism,
          racial discrimination, xenophobia and related intolerance.


          As parliamentarians we are aware of the particular role and
          responsibility that Parliaments and their members have in the
          fight against racism, racial discrimination and related
          intolerance, for parliaments adopt laws, approve the national
          budget and oversee the executive branch of government. Members
          of parliament have a personal responsibility to use their
          influence on public opinion to promote the values of diversity
          and tolerance.


          The Program of Action to be adopted at the World Conference
          invites the Inter-Parliamentary Union to contribute to the
          activities of the International Year of Mobilization against
          Racism, Racial Discrimination, Xenophobia and Related
          Intolerance by encouraging national parliaments to review
          progress in relation to the objectives of the World
          Conference. It also invites the Inter-Parliamentary Union to
          encourage debate in, and action by, Parliaments on legal
          measures to be taken at the national level to combat racism,
          racial discrimination, xenophobia and related intolerance.


          We urge Parliaments to provide special mechanisms to monitor
          and ensure effective implementation by governments and to
          initiate activities to fight against racism, racial
          discrimination, xenophobia and related intolerance. Such
          actions would be strengthened by co-operation with civil
          society.


          We hereby pledge to make every effort, within our parliaments
          and constituencies, to combat racism, xenophobia and racial
          discrimination and to work towards the establishment of a
          society based on solidarity, tolerance and equality. To that
          end, we shall do our utmost to ensure that our States co-
          operate closely with the United Nations in its endeavours to
          establish a world free from direct and indirect discrimination
          based on race, colour, work and descent, national or ethnic
          origin, gender or on any other feature. In that regard, we are
          conscious of the importance of national adherence to and
          implementation of relevant international treaties, in
          particular the International Convention on the Elimination of
          All Forms of Racial Discrimination, the Convention on the
          Protection of the Rights of All Migrant Workers and Members of
          Their Families (CMW) and the Convention relating to the Status
          of Refugees and its Protocol.
          We shall urge our Parliaments to adopt and monitor the
          implementation of laws that are consistent with their
          Constitutions and which are necessary for this purpose,
          including, where required, measures of affirmative action and
          systems of redress for the victims of racist acts. We shall
          also strive to make sure that leading figures in society,
          including members of parliament, along with educational
          institutions such as schools imbue current and future
          generations with a profound appreciation of the value of
          diversity in a world where we all share a common heritage and
          destiny.


          We urge our Parliaments and members to follow up the
          implementation of the World Solidarity Fund adopted by the
          General Assembly of the United Nations with its main objective
          to alleviate poverty, reduce inequalities and injustice and
          racial hatred and to enhance and strengthen solidarity and
          tolerance between people and Nations.


          We accordingly call on the Inter-Parliamentary Union to take
          appropriate action to follow up on the Program of Action to be
          adopted by the World Conference.

TABLINGS:

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces:

Papers:

1. The Minister for Provincial and Local Government:

 Report and Financial Statements of the Department of Provincial and
 Local Government for 2000-2001, including the Report of the Auditor-
 General on the Financial Statements of Vote 22 - Provincial and Local
 Government for 2000-2001 [RP 132-2001].

1. The Minister of Arts, Culture, Science and Technology:

 Report and Financial Statements of the Department of Arts, Culture,
 Science and Technology for 2000-2001, including the Report of the
 Auditor-General on the Financial Statements of Vote 4 - Arts, Culture,
 Science and Technology for 2000-2001 [RP 92-2001].

1. The Minister of Trade and Industry:

 Report and Financial Statements of the South African Bureau of
 Standards for 2000-2001, including the Report of the Auditor-General on
 the Group Financial Statements for 2000-2001.

1. The Minister for Agriculture and Land Affairs:

 Report and Financial Statements of the Perishable Products Export
 Control Board for 2000.

National Assembly:

1. The Speaker:

 (1)    Report of the Fact-Finding Mission to Israel and Palestine from
     9 to 19 July 2001.


     The report is available from Parliament's website
     http://www.parliament.gov.za/committees/report/rejuly01.htm


 (2)    Petition from Ms M Botha, formerly in the employ of the
     Department of Health, praying for a pension - (Presented by Mr F
     Beukman, MP).


     Referred to the Committee on Private Members' Legislative
     Proposals and Special Petitions for consideration and report.

1. The Minister of Minerals and Energy:

 Draft Regulations made in terms of section 5 of the Abolition of the
 Lebowa Mineral Act, 2000 (Act No 67 of 2000) with regard to the nature
 and proof required in terms of section 3(1)(c) and vesting and transfer
 of assets, liabilities, rights and obligations of Trust.


 Referred to the Portfolio Committee on Minerals and Energy for
 consideration.

                    WEDNESDAY, 26 SEPTEMBER 2001 ANNOUNCEMENTS:

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces:

1. The Speaker and the Chairperson:

 (1)    The Joint Tagging Mechanism (JTM) on 26 September 2001 in terms
     of Joint Rule 160(3), classified the following Bill as a section
     75 Bill:


     (i)     Basic Conditions of Employment Amendment Bill [B 70 -
          2001] (National Assembly - sec 75).


 (2)    The Joint Tagging Mechanism (JTM) on 26 September 2001 in terms
     of Joint Rule 160(4), classified the following Bill as a section
     76 Bill:


     (i)     Mental Health Care Bill [B 69 - 2001] (National Assembly -
          sec 76).


 (3)    The Joint Tagging Mechanism (JTM) on 26 September 2001 in terms
     of Joint Rule 161(1), classified the following Bill as follows:


     (i)     Immigration Bill [B 46 - 2001]


          The Bill was introduced as a section 75 Bill. Clause 12 of
          the Bill contains a money Bill provision within the meaning
          of section 77(1) of the Constitution, while the rest of the
          Bill deals with matters that are not subordinate and
          incidental to the appropriation of money or the imposition of
          taxes, levies or duties. Therefore, the Bill cannot be
          classified as a section 75 Bill.


          Accordingly the JTM finds that the Bill is constitutionally
          out of order in terms of Joint Rule 161(1)(e).


 (4)    The following Bill was introduced by the Minister for
     Agriculture and Land Affairs in the National Assembly on 26
     September 2001 and referred to the Joint Tagging Mechanism (JTM)
     for classification in terms of Joint Rule 160:


     (i)     Planning Profession Bill [B 76 - 2001] (National Assembly
          - sec 75) [Explanatory summary of Bill and prior notice of its
          introduction published in Government Gazette No 22639 of 31
          August 2001.]


     The Bill has also been referred to the Portfolio Committee on
     Agriculture and Land Affairs of the National Assembly.


     In terms of Joint Rule 154 written views on the classification of
     the Bill may be submitted to the Joint Tagging Mechanism (JTM)
     within three parliamentary working days.


 (5)    The Minister for Justice and Constitutional Development
     submitted the Wysigingswetsontwerp op die Grondwet van die
     Republiek van Suid-Afrika [W 68 - 2001] (National Assembly -
     section 74) to the Speaker and the Chairperson on 26 September
     2001. This is the official translation of the Constitution of the
     Republic of South Africa Amendment Bill [B 68 - 2001] (National
     Assembly - section 74), which was introduced in the National
     Assembly by the Minister for Justice and Constitutional
     Development on 12 September 2001. TABLINGS:

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces:

Papers:

1. The Minister of Finance:

 Report and Financial Statements of the National Treasury for 2000-2001,
 including the Reports of the Auditor-General on the Financial
 Statements of Vote 12 - Finance for 1999-2000, the Financial Statements
 of Vote 32 - State Expenditure for 1999-2000 and the Financial
 Statements of the National Treasury for 2000-2001 [RP 101-2001].

1. The Minister of Arts, Culture, Science and Technology:

 (1)    Government Notice No 219 published in the Government Gazette No
     22106 dated 9 March 2001, Application for registration of heraldic
     representations and objections, made in terms of sections 7, 7A
     and 7B of the Heraldry Act, 1962 (Act No 18 of 1962).
 (2)    Government Notice No 399 published in the Government Gazette No
     22281 dated 18 May 2001, Application for registration of heraldic
     representations and objections, made in terms of sections 7, 7A
     and 7B of the Heraldry Act, 1962 (Act No 18 of 1962).


 (3)    Government Notice No 400 published in the Government Gazette No
     22281 dated 18 May 2001, Notice of registration of heraldic
     representations, made in terms of section 10 of the Heraldry Act,
     1962 (Act No 18 of 1962).


 (4)    Government Notice No 563 published in the Government Gazette No
     21242 dated 9 June 2001, Provisional declaration of types of
     objects, made in terms of section 32(5)(b)(i) of the National
     Heritage Resources Act, 1999 (Act No 25 of 1999).


 (5)    Government Notice No 580 published in the Government Gazette No
     22410 dated 25 June 2001, Notification that the President has
     signed the National Council for Library and Information Service
     Act, 2001 (Act No 6 of 2001).
 (6)    Government Notice No 112 published in the Government Gazette No
     22451 dated 13 July 2001, Substitution of Notice No 120 of 1997
     concerning Norms and Rules for Provincial Language Committees,
     made in terms of section 8(11) of the Pan South African Language
     Board Act, 1995 (Act No 59 of 1995).

1. The Minister of Public Enterprises:

 Financial Statements of Alexkor Limited for 1999-2000.

1. The Minister of Safety and Security:

 Report and Financial Statements of the Department of Safety and
 Security for 2000-2001, including the Report of the Auditor-General on
 the Financial Statements of Vote 28 - South African Police Service and
 the Secretariat for Safety and Security for 2000-2001 [RP 129-2001].