National Council of Provinces - 20 June 2001
WEDNESDAY, 20 JUNE 2001
____
PROCEEDINGS OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
The Council met at 14:02.
The Deputy Chairperson took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayers or meditation.
CONGRATULATIONS TO DAIMLER BENZ ON ITS HIV/AIDS PLAN
(Draft Resolution)
Mr K D S DURR: Chairperson, I move without notice:
That the Council -
(1) congratulates the chairman and CEO of Daimler Benz, Mr Christoph Kopke, and the company for resolving to launch a comprehensive HIV/Aids plan for their 450 staff and 23 000 dependants;
(2) notes that the benefit per employee needing help could be approximately R30 000;
(3) salutes Daimler Benz South Africa, Anglo American and other companies for their compassionate leadership in response to the epidemic; and
(4) notes that this intervention underlines for South Africa the benefits of responsible foreign investment in South Africa by good corporate citizens.
Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.
KILLING OF COMMUTERS ON METRORAIL
(Draft Resolution)
Ms P C P MAJODINA: Chairperson, I move without notice:
That the Council -
(1) notes with shock and anger the senseless killing of two Metrorail commuters and the merciless assault on others by a group of men on the Belhar route;
(2) acknowledges that most Metrorail commuters are poor and therefore cannot afford alternative modes of transport;
(3) believes that the latest killings and assaults once again highlight the need for effective measures to protect Metrorail commuters;
(4) commends the South African Police Service for their swift action in apprehending three of the alleged killers early this morning; and
(5) resolves to take up the issue of commuters’ safety with Metrorail to ensure adequate protection for our people on trains.
Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.
ENDORSEMENT OF HEAVY SENTENCES HANDED DOWN BY COURTS FOR SERIOUS CRIMES
(Draft Resolution)
Mr J L MAHLANGU: Chairperson, I move without notice:
That the Council -
(1) notes that since the beginning of this year, our courts have handed out heavy sentences in a number of serious criminal cases, including -
(a) the double life sentences imposed yesterday on three men who
were convicted for the killing of two guards, during the 1999
cash-in-transit heist in Olifantsfontein;
(b) the life sentence imposed on a serial rapist by the Cape High
Court;
(c) the double life sentence handed down by the Pretoria High Court
to an HIV-positive man found guilty of raping two 11-year-old
girls;
(d) the life sentences imposed on two Cape Flats gangsters for
robbing, raping and killing two matric schoolgirls; and
(e) the double life sentences imposed on the Valencia Farmer
killers;
(2) believes that these sentences are the positive results of the introduction by Government of new measures aimed at combating violent crimes, such as the minimum sentencing guidelines;
(3) commends members of the police and prosecutors who work tirelessly on these cases to ensure the convictions; and
(4) wishes to assure them of its continued support in the fight against violent criminals.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr M L Mushwana): Order! Is there any objection to the motion?
Mr P A MATTHEE: Chairperson, I move as an amendment:
That, in paragraph (2), Government'' be substituted byParliament’’.
Legislative measures are put in place by Parliament.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr M L Mushwana): Order! Hon member Mahlangu?
Mr J L MAHLANGU: Chairperson, obviously Parliament approves Government
policy. The initiators of this policy are indeed the Government and
therefore I think it is better to say Government'', because it is the
Government that implements as the executive. Legislation actually effects
those undertakings. I think the spirit is the same, but I would appreciate
it if we retainedGovernment’’. I think Mr Matthee will consider this.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr M L Mushwana): Order! Mr Matthee, are you convinced?
Mr P A MATTHEE: Chairperson, I then move:
That, in paragraph 2, after Government'' be inserted and
Parliament’’.
I really think Parliament is important here.
Mr J L MAHLANGU: I agree to that, Chairperson.
Amendment agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.
Motion, as amended, agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution, namely:
That the Council -
(1) notes that since the beginning of this year, our courts have handed out heavy sentences in a number of serious criminal cases, including -
(a) the double life sentences imposed yesterday on three men who
were convicted for the killing of two guards, during the 1999
cash-in-transit heist in Olifantsfontein;
(b) the life sentence imposed on a serial rapist by the Cape High
Court;
(c) the double life sentence handed down by the Pretoria High Court
to an HIV-positive man found guilty of raping two 11-year-old
girls;
(d) the life sentences imposed on two Cape Flats gangsters for
robbing, raping and killing two matric schoolgirls; and
(e) the double life sentences imposed on the Valencia Farmer
killers;
(2) believes that these sentences are the positive results of the introduction by Government and Parliament of new measures aimed at combating violent crimes, such as the minimum sentencing guidelines;
(3) commends members of the police and prosecutors who work tirelessly on these cases to ensure the convictions; and
(4) wishes to assure them of its continued support in the fight against violent criminals.
FIRST EVER BLACK FEMALE PILOT IN THE SOUTH AFRICAN AIR FORCE
(Draft Resolution)
Prince B Z ZULU: Chairperson, I move without notice:
That the Council -
(1) notes with pride the achievement of Lt Annabel Macauley, who became the first ever black female South African Air Force pilot;
(2) further notes that this magnificent accomplishment was achieved against the many obstacles that face black women in South Africa; and
(3) congratulates Lt Macauley on her achievements and wishes her the very best in her new career. [Applause.]
Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.
PRECEDENCE TO ORDER OF THE DAY
(Draft Resolution)
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE COUNCIL: Chairperson, I move without notice:
That precedence be given to Order No 2 on the Order Paper.
I have communicated with the party-political Whips, as also with the Ministers involved.
Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr M L Mushwana): Order! I would like to take this opportunity to welcome the hon the Minister for Public Enterprises and call upon him to address this House.
ESKOM CONVERSION BILL
(Consideration of Bill and of Report thereon) The MINISTER FOR PUBLIC ENTERPRISES: Chairperson, hon members, I am pleased to table before this Council the Eskom Conversion Bill. I wish to take the opportunity, though, of commending the chairperson of the portfolio committee, Mr Fenyane, and other members of the Select Committee on Labour and Public Enterprises for their sterling work and for the discipline that has been displayed during the challenging period leading to where we are right now. I am aware that because of the nature of this Bill, there is consensus amongst the various political parties on its object and mechanisms.
Allow me to also thank the various stakeholders who made submissions and engaged the department on the content of the Bill. I will always value these engagements which have impacted positively on the content and quality of the Bill that we are tabling this afternoon.
This Bill has its origin in the Eskom Amendment Act of 1998. Hon members will recall that Eskom had previously not been subjected to tax, nor liable for the payment of dividends to the Government as a shareholder. The Eskom Amendment Act of 1998 paved the way for the removal of Eskom’s tax-exempt status and also required the Minister for Public Enterprises to incorporate Eskom as a public company, in terms of the Companies Amendment Act of 1989.
I must emphasise that this is a technical Bill that seeks to incorporate Eskom as a public company, as I have indicated. It also seeks to achieve this objective in a manner that will deem Eskom to be converted into a public company, without interfering with any of its current operations and obligations. To restate this fundamental point, there will not be any tampering with the running of Eskom as a business, despite the repeal of the Eskom Act of 1987.
To ensure continuity, the shareholder compact, as well as the articles and memorandum of association of the converted Eskom, will serve as custodians of any responsibilities imposed by the Eskom Act, even beyond the incorporation.
Allow me to also highlight some of the key benefits of this conversion. Amongst others, are the facilitation of payment of dividends by Eskom, which will allow our Government to access resources within state-owned enterprises and Eskom in particular in a manner that is consistent with good corporate governance and sound business practice. Access to these resources will further enhance the ability of the Government to deliver on its commitment, in terms of the Reconstruction and Development Programme. The intention of the ANC Government is, one, to apply all these resources in a manner that contributes towards the upliftment of the lives of our people, and also strengthens the South African economy; and, two, levelling the playing field and ensuring consistency with other state-owned enterprises, who are already incorporated in terms of the Companies Amendment Act of 1989, such as Transnet and Telkom.
The two-tier structure of the electricity council and the management board will be done away with. This will be replaced by a board of directors, to be appointed by the Government as a shareholder. In addition, the appointment of a board of directors will also facilitate the development of a very effective relationship with the Government as a shareholder, and thereby improve corporate governance.
This conversion will also bring Eskom in line with the type of business entity that is more acceptable and well understood internationally. This can only have a positive effect in terms of Eskom’s global standing. It will also enhance the ability of Eskom to achieve its strategic intent, to be the pre-eminent African energy and related business of global stature. We need to encourage national champions that are African and globally competitive so that they can serve as catalysts for growth and development in Southern Africa and the whole of the African continent.
I want to emphasise one point, that the Eskom Conversion Bill is not about its privatisation. The reality of the matter is that the state remains the sole shareholder in Eskom. The fears generated in the public domain and carried by editorials of various newspapers, such as the Sunday Times and The Pretoria News, are clearly unfounded. When I see a poster with the words: ``Hands off Eskom’’, it reminds all of us of the critical role that Eskom continues to play in the quality of life of our people and in the whole of the South African economy.
Our Government will not be irresponsible, and does not seek to destroy the capacity that vests in Eskom, built over many, many decades. The strategic challenge for the Government, through its restructuring programme, will be to enhance Eskom’s capacity in a strategic manner towards our goals of growth and a better life for our people. Let me emphasise that the issue of Eskom’s ownership and the change thereof is a policy issue that has not been finalised by the Government as yet. This Bill, therefore, does not in any way pre-empt or limit the policy and restructuring options that could be adopted in the future.
Even though as the Government we have stated our approach regarding the restructuring of the energy sector, this is done, and is going to be done, within the context of retaining Eskom as a dominant energy player. It is our intention as the Government to engage with organised labour on the various restructuring options for Eskom.
I must also add that the place for such engagements is not this forum, but the national framework agreement between the Government and organised labour. I wish, therefore, to take this opportunity to reiterate the Government’s commitment to a process of rigorous engagement with organised labour on all restructuring matters.
My office has received enquiries from various provinces, such as the Free State, Western Cape and others, regarding the impact of this Bill on the price of electricity. I must state categorically that this Bill will not affect the price of electricity. There is no link between the act that we are going to be performing today and the increase in the prices of electricity.
In any event, it is important to point out that increases in the price of electricity must be approved by the National Electricity Regulator, or NER. Therefore, Eskom is not in a position to unilaterally do so without following the necessary approval processes.
Our commitment as Government to Eskom’s developmental role in our society is beyond any reproach. The Bill provides that the memorandum and articles of association, as well as the shareholder compact, must take into account, amongst others, Eskom’s developmental role.
This is proof enough of our Government, as well as Eskom’s commitment to making electricity accessible to all our people as we have done in the past. We have stated before that Eskom occupies a very strategic position in our economy and it is, therefore, critical to the realisation of our efforts for a better life for all our people. Hon members would agree with me that it has not been easy to come this far, especially with all the placards outside. Let me, therefore, conclude by sincerely thanking all hon members for having turned this process into a reality. Allow me in conclusion to express, once again, a word of gratitude to Advocates Selokela, Mbangeni and Mkhize from the office of the Chief State Law Adviser for the good advice and guidance that they have provided. Allow me also to thank the team from Eskom who are here today, Dr Benji Mothibedi, Mr Mpho Matjila and Mr Mohammed Adam, together with the officials from my department, for their commitment in taking forward the mandate of the Government, despite all the pressures and obstacles. [Applause.]
Mr S L E FENYANE: Chairperson, I would like to say thank you for the opportunity given to me to speak. I rise to extend the Select Committee on Labour and Public Enterprises’s support for the Bill. I would like to take the opportunity to thank the department under the able stewardship of Minister Jeff Radebe and the Eskom team, not forgetting the Matjila brothers, for the support they gave us when we navigated the passing of this Bill through the parliamentary committee’s onerous processes.
The processes were occasionally punctuated with hurdles, but the committee and the department persisted and prevailed, nevertheless. The Bill seeks to convert Eskom from a statutory body into a public company which is solely owned by the state. The immediate question that comes to one’s mind is: Why the conversion? Why do we not leave Eskom as it is? These are immediate questions.
In 1994, roughly 255 000 households had access to electricity, and 12% of these represented rural households. Eskom, at the behest of this Government, increased access to electricity to roughly 1,75 million households as at 31 December 1999. Now the question is: Why do we have to convert Eskom? That is the question.
In an attempt to answer this question, I will employ a philosophical gambit to motivate my submission. I will start with inspirational words of advice said by Niccolo Machiavelli in his letter to the prince, which are as follows:
You must know, then, that there are two methods of fighting: the one by law, the other by force. The first method is that of men, the second, of beasts. But as the first method is often insufficient, one must have recourse to the second. This parable symbolically teaches us to acknowledge that the modern world we live in is fraught with contradictions and controversies. As Machiavelli correctly advised the prince, we should be able to assume the beastly personality of a fox in order to recognise traps in the global bush, and we should also assume the beastly personality of lions in order to frighten off wolves in this bush, when we employ the second method posited by Niccolo Machiavelli.
The end of the cold war has ushered in the new era, in which the hegemonic statuses of the United States and Russia are being interrogated and redefined. The world society is continuously undergoing a metamorphosis whose manifestations are reflected in the perpetual recasting of key political and economic relationships.
The modern world is no longer state-centric. The rise of multinational corporations and their growing importance as instruments of globalisation essentially imply that political diplomacy is no longer the preoccupation of nation states. Economic and industrial diplomacy has become central in international relations, as the sovereignty of the state is gradually being eroded. Even war itself has lost its somewhat nuanced legitimacy as an instrument of statecraft.
The global village is now arguably controlled by the IMF, the World Bank, the WTO, multinational corporations and the G8 countries. In the face of this hostile environment, countries are expected to shape up or ship out and assume the marginal role of peripheral states of the world.
Indeed, the question is not whether there is globalisation or not. The question is: How do we protect national interests on the one hand, and adjust ourselves to cope with incremental demands of globalisation on the other hand? We cannot just sit, pray and hope that problems will solve themselves. We have to position ourselves appropriately for any future eventuality, hence the attempt by the state to transform all state parastatals, so as to bring them in line with contemporary realities.
The conversion of Eskom into a public company is not an attempt to dismiss employees. Clause (4)(c) in the Bill addresses the concern of Eskom’s employees adequately. The core developmental role of Eskom is to roll out universal access to affordable electricity for all our people. The Bill itself indicates that when the Minister determines the shareholder compact and the articles of association, he or she must take into account the developmental role of Eskom.
We should understand that Eskom has other roles as well, such as entering the African market and electrifying Africa for the advancement of African unity and the African Renaissance. For it to fulfill these obligations, Eskom has to be competitive and its management has to embrace the letter and the spirit of co-operative governance.
I am informed that a conservative market capitalisation of Eskom is R100 billion. So, its restructuring is expected to inject massive capital into the fiscus and our GDP. When competition eventually comes, we will not be found wanting. Malcolm X correctly argues that, and I quote: ``Tomorrow belongs to people who plan it today’’.
Those who do not plan, and specialise in criticising and lamenting will, finally, regress into a primitive stage of development, with the hope that God can place them back into the world’s only tensionless, classless and blissful environment, which is one’s mother’s womb. We cannot go back to that. We cannot regress as a country, since our earliest primitive stage of development was apartheid, and we do not need that.
So we must continue to position ourselves strategically for the future. Now is the time for us to do that, because nothing lasts forever. Even one’s appearance does not last. Today one is one person, and tomorrow a different person. We need to position ourselves for the future. We cannot just say that because Eskom is doing certain things today, it will continue to do those things tomorrow. Nothing lasts forever. So, let us position ourselves for the future. [Applause.]
Dr P J C NEL: Voorsitter, hierdie wysigingswetsontwerp is ‘n baie belangrike stuk wetgewing, aangesien die verspreiding en voorsiening van elektrisiteit aan die normale huishouding ‘n onmisbare element is om in die basiese behoeftes van die gemeenskap te kan voorsien. Die voldoende en ononderbroke voorsiening van elektriese krag is vandag die belangrikste kommoditeit vir die ontwikkeling, instandhouding en uitbreiding van enige land in die wêreld se ekonomie. Die wetgewing het ten doel om Eskom om te skakel van ‘n statutêre regspersoon na ‘n openbare maatskappy, met geïnkorporeerde aandelekapitaal in terme van die Maatskappywet. My party is van mening dat die ontbinding van Eskom op die lang duur ‘n gunstige uitwerking sal hê op die lewering van dienste aan die gemeenskap in ‘n ontwikkelende land soos Suid-Afrika, waarin die stygende aanvraag na elektrisiteit ‘n realiteit is. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraph follows.)
[Dr P J C NEL: Chairperson, this amending Bill is a very important piece of legislation, because the distribution and supply of electricity to the conventional household is an essential element in meeting the basic needs of the community. Today the adequate and continuous supply of electric power is the most important commodity for the development, maintenance and extension of the economy of any country in the world. This legislation is aimed at converting Eskom from a statutory legal entity into a public company, with incorporated share capital in terms of the Companies Act. My party is of the opinion that in the long run the dissolution of Eskom will have a positive effect upon service delivery to the communities in a developing country such as South Africa, where the increasing demand for electricity is a reality.]
My party has great appreciation for the fact that, according to their annual report for 2000, Eskom has achieved its commitment of electrifying 1,75 million homes, one year earlier than originally planned. Since the inception of Eskom’s electrification programme in 1991, a total of 2,39 million homes have been electrified.
My party believes that the shareholder compact on the performance agreement to be entered into between Eskom and the Government of South Africa should create a healthy business model for governance. Eskom, in its director’s annual report, foresees that the shareholder compact will give direction from the Government as the shareholder as to what is required from Eskom in terms of strategic objectives, key policies, and performance parameters and targets, which can only improve the performance of Eskom in the future.
The concern of Cosatu that the taxation of Eskom on becoming a public company will give rise to severe price increases is not relevant. Eskom’s income status had already changed with effect from 1 January 2000, on which day Eskom became liable for income tax. It is not this Bill that will make Eskom a taxpayer. An appropriate tax framework for Eskom’s business is already being finalised. The framework takes into account Eskom’s electrification obligation, the need for stable, predictable price increases and an appropriate dividend policy. Decisions on increasing the price cannot be taken unilaterally, but must be approved by the National Electricity Regulator in terms of the Electricity Act of 1987, as the hon the Minister has already mentioned.
There is also an understanding that the Government will put tax money and dividends from Eskom into an electrification fund in order to minimise the impact of taxation on the price.
In conclusion, I would like to congratulate Eskom on its HIV/Aids programme. The fact that Eskom’s HIV/Aids programme has received two international awards and one national award is laudable. Undoubtedly, Eskom is setting an example for other businesses in the Republic of South Africa. The New NP supports the Bill. [Applause.]
Ms B N DLULANE: Mhlalingaphambili weBhunga leSizwe laMaphondo, abaphathiswa namasekela abo kunye namalungu abekekileyo, mandiqale ndibulele eli thuba ndilinikiweyo lokuba ndithabathe inxaxheba kwingxoxo engoMthetho Oyilwayo’ iEskom Conversion. Ngaphandle kokuphalala kwegazi lamaqhawe anjengala alandelayo: ooLilian Ngoyi, Griffiths Mxenge, Hector Peterson, Chris Hani, Oliver Tambo nabanye, ngesingenalo eli thuba lokuthabatha inxaxheba kule Ndlu, ngakumbi ngokubhekisele kwindima yokucebisana nabaqulunqi bomthetho kuRhulumente wabantu ngemithetho edla abantu abahluphekileyo nabangathabathi ntweni kolu sana lusaqingqayo lwenkululeko.
Akukhange kube lula ukufikelela kwezi zivumelwano singabemi boMzantsi Afrika kunye namalungu ePalamente. Ndithetha njengommi waseMzantsi Afrika okwalilungu likaKhongolose. Besinoxanduva lokujongana neengcebiso ezininzi, ezisuka kuluntu jikelele nakwimibutho yabantu ngokubanzi apha ekuhlaleni. Le nto ndiyithethiswa kukuba ndifuna bazi ukuba siye salivula ithuba lokuba zonke izindululo neziphakamiso zize kulo Rhulumente wabantu. Bayenzile ke loo nto, bazivakalisa iimbono kwaneemfuno zabo.
Iingcebiso ezithe zagqama zezivele kubasebenzi, zivakalisa uluvo lwabantu. Inkulu inxaxheba ethe yathatyathwa ngabasebenzi kulo Mthetho usayilwayo kuba kaloku lo nguRhulumente wabo, uyawazi namalungelo abo. Indima abayidlalileyo abasebenzi ekuncedisaneni nale komiti ibonisa ukuba ubudlelwane abubuyi mva, bubheka phambili. Ayikho into ethi kuba lo Rhulumente ekhokelwa yi-ANC, imbumba ye-ANC-SACP-COSATU iyahexa xa abantu besizisa izindululo zabo. Ayihexi, iqina ngakumbi. Ndingathi ukuzama ukuwubeka ngokundilisekileyo lo mba, wonke ubani uyazi ukuba uRhulumente uba nemigaqonkqubo yakhe, nabasebenzi ngokunjalo. Ukuba le migaqo-nkqubo ibiya kuvumela yonke into, ngesingenaye lo Rhulumente.
Into endizama ukuyithetha yeyokuba kwiingcebiso nezilungiso eziphakanyiswe yiCosatu, ezintandathu kwezisibhozo sivumelene ngazo. Ezo sithe asavumelana ngazo asizikhabanga. Xa besinokwenza njalo besiya kuba siphuma endleleni kwiinkqubo zikaRhulumente. Le nto ndiyithethiswa kukuba sele etshilo uMphathiswa ukuba kaloku ikho imithetho esayilwayo enobucukubhede. Ukuba singavumelana ngayo yonke into, noko siya kuba asikwazi kuyijonga imigaqo- nkqubo kaRhulumente. (Translation of Xhosa paragraphs follows.)
[Ms B N DLULANE: Chairperson of the National Council of Provinces, hon Ministers and their deputies, and hon members, it is an honour for me to be given this opportunity to participate in the debate about the Eskom Conversion Bill. Without the loss of heroes and heroines such as Lillian Ngoyi, Griffiths Mxenge, Hector Peterson, Chris Hani, Oliver Tambo, and others, we would never have had this opportunity of participating in such interesting debates in this House, especially when we have to assist formulators of laws that affect poor people.
It was not easy to reach these agreements as citizens of South Africa and members of Parliament. I speak as a South African citizen as well as an ANC member. We were faced with an enormous task of evaluating the many suggestions that came from the public in general and community organisations. This I say because I want them to know that we did provide an opportunity for people’s proposals as the Government of the people. They responded well and expressed their views and needs.
The suggestions that were prominent came from workers. Workers played a vital role in the formulation of this Bill because this Government knows what their rights are. The role that workers and this committee played shows clearly that the relationship is becoming even stronger. When people are dissatisfied about something and are making proposals, that should not suggest that the alliance of the ANC, SACP and Cosatu is threatened. The relationship should not be taken as unstable at all; instead it is becoming even stronger. To put it appropriately, everybody knows that Government has certain policies and so do workers. If such policies would allow for everything, there would be no reason to have this Government.
The point I am trying to make is that we agreed with Cosatu on six out of eight suggestions and amendments they had. The ones we could not reach consensus on were not necessarily removed from the discussion table. Any such action would be against the policies of Government. This I mention because the Minister has already indicated that there are other Bills that are being formulated. If we could agree on everything, we would not be going according to Government policies.]
One of the two amendments Cosatu has proposed is that a clause be added which instructs Cabinet before it takes a decision to dispose any Eskom shares that such a decision should go to Parliament.
Njengoko bese nditshilo, zikhona kaloku izinto esingenakuzityeshela singala malungu eNdlu, ekufuneka sigxinisise kuzo. [As I said earlier there are important things that we could not just ignore as members.]
Following a discussion with them, a compromise was proposed by the Department of Public Enterprises which proposes that should Cabinet dispose of Eskom shares, it has to publish such intentions in the Gazette and call for public hearings.
Le nto ndiyithethiswa kuba ndifuna beve phaya emakhaya, kuba kaloku kufuneka bazi ukuba siyaphulaphula singuRhulumente wabantu. Khange singayiphulaphuli loo nto, kodwa sinenkqubo esiqhuba ngayo. [I mention this because I want those at home to hear it, for they should know that we do listen, as the Government of the people. We never ignored them, but we want them to know that we do things according to a set procedure.]
I would like to make it clear that the Bill, as it stands without these two proposals, does take care of Cosatu’s concern, in that it is stated in the Bill that Government is the sole shareholder of Eskom.
Akwaba bekunokuthi kanti bamamele abasebenzi phaya phandle. [I so wish that workers were listening out there.]
This means that if Cabinet, in the future, decides to change the shareholder arrangement, it has to go to Parliament to amend the Bill.
Uqala apho ke umsebenzi wethu singamalungu ka-ANC abekwe apha. Kufuneka sijonge ukuba asinxaxhi na kwiinkqubo zePalamente esizinikiweyo. [Our job as members of the ANC who were voted to this Government starts there. We should guard against not following the rules that Government set.]
The proposal that this intention be put in the Gazette and the call for public hearings will be done through committee procedures in Parliament.
Njengokuba bebonile, abasebenzi okokuqala kwimbali yeli lizwe, bebesiza njengaye wonke umntu bagcwalise kwizindlu esixoxela kuzo. Likhona elo thuba, livuliwe ngulo Rhulumente wabantu. [For the first time in the history of this country, workers could come and fill up seats in the houses where debates would be carrying on.]
In terms of the processes which Cosatu has brought about, these submissions will be opened again. This means that the concerns of Cosatu have been taken care of through parliamentary processes. The fact that this Bill will convert Eskom from a statutory juristic body into a public company, having share capital, means that parity will be brought about between Eskom and all other state-owned entities, especially in terms of tax and dividends payments to the state, to enable Government to achieve its social objectives, such as providing water and electricity to the poor. This Bill also ensures that Eskom observes and is run in terms of a protocol on co- operative governance.
Ndibulela onke amalungu emibutho athabatha inxaxheba kule ngxoxo. Mandibabulele abahlali-ngaphambili beekmiti zeziNdlu zombini. Akukhange kube lula. Mandingalibali ukubulela isebe kwakunye noMphathiswa, kunye naye wonke, ubani ebesisebenza naye. Namhlanje sigqiba kwelokuba siyawuvuma lo Mthetho usayilwayo. [I would like to thank members of all parties that took part in this debate. I would also like to thank the chairpersons of committees of both Houses. It was not easy. I will not forget to thank the Department and the Minister as well as everybody that we worked with. We have decided to accept this Bill today.] Ms C BOTHA: Chairperson, hon Minister and members, the Eskom Conversion Bill puts an interesting spotlight on the growing difference, not only of economics, but also of ethical choice arising between the Government, on the one hand, and trade unions on the other. Is privatisation a panacea for economic growth and opportunity, or is it a process causing job losses and a brake on delivery for the poor?
The fundamental choice addressed by politicians is deciding on the allocation of scarce resources according to the preferences of society. I cannot put it in such Machiavellian terms as my chairperson did. Cosatu still seems to believe that a command economy can deliver an acceptable standard of living in a global economy, while Government has realised that this can only be achieved by economic growth in which private enterprise and competition play a definitive role.
The ethical question is the more interesting one. Are we here as guardians of the employed, or are we here to expand opportunities to the heart- numbing number of people who do not have jobs, who do not get retrenchment packages and who have not had on-the-job training? These fundamental choices must be made, and the Government has chosen, quite clearly on the economic issue, privatisation as the path to growth and opportunity. Cosatu, on the other hand, is harking back to an era of international as well as national social engineering not for lack of moral vision, but for misguided notions of economic principles and the needs of human nature. I do question their morals when strike action is their choice of response to a heavily and democratically debated issue. It is difficult to see whose agenda is served by such contemplated action.
Such confrontation could possibly be avoided if Government would address the issue of privatisation in a more forthright manner than they have done to date or, I dare say, like it was done today by the Minister. No sleight of hand will hide the fact that this Bill, which changes Eskom from a statutory commission to a shareholder-owned energy company, is, in fact, the first step to an inevitable sale of shares to the public.
This will not be hidden by the voted removal of clause 3 from the memorandum of the Bill on the flimsy excuse that the paragraph is confusing. One may judge for oneself. It reads as follows:
The benefit to the country of the unbundling of Eskom is that in the long run Eskom might decide to draw on the benefits of listing on a stock exchange and, in that event, citizens and foreigners alike, will be in a position to acquire shares in Eskom. Eskom can only be listed on the stock exchange if it is a company and Government is preparing for that eventuality, should it arise.
Having due regard for both its stated and unstated aims, the DP therefore votes with the Government in support of this Bill. [Applause.]
Nkk J N VILAKAZI: Sihlalo ohloniphekileyo nomhlonishwa uNgqongqoshe okhona phakathi kwethu kanye neNdlu yonke, iqembu lami le-IFP liwusekela ngokugcwele umThetho osezithebeni okuthiwa yi-Eskom Conversion Bill - B 16B
- 2001 - ingaphansi kwe sigatshana $5. Siyawuthanda sonke u-Eskom ngoba usilethela ugesi esiwudingayo ezmpilweni zethu.
UHulumeni wethu ubonile ukuthi ukuze umphakathi uthuthuke ngezinga eliphezulu, makanikeze u-Eskom ilungelo elithe xaxa ekuphatheni ukuze impilo yabantu, umnotho wezwe kanye nenhlalo jikelele ibe sezingeni eliphezulu kuwo wonke umuntu owakhele leli laseNingizimu Afrika. Okunye okuhle ngalo mThetho, ukuzwa ukuthi uHulumeni akaphumile gelekeqe ku-Eskom, kodwa unengxenye enkulu ekuphathweni kwawo. Lokhu kuzosiza kakhulu labo abakade benengebhe yokuthi uHulumeni ubabeka esimeni esingesihle ngokuthi kwenziwe uguquko ekuphatheni. (Translation of Zulu paragraphs follows.)
[Mrs J N VILAKAZI: Chairperson, our hon Minister and the House at large, the IFP fully supports the Bill that is on the Table, which is known as the Eskom Conversion Bill - B16B - 2001 - a section 75 Bill. We all like Eskom because it gives us electricity that we need in our lives.
Our Government has realised that in order for our society to develop to a high level, it must give Eskom an additional right in managing people’s lives and the country’s economy, and that the welfare of our society should be at a high level to benefit everyone who resides in South Africa. Another good thing about this Bill is to hear that the Government is not completely out of Eskom. It still plays an important role in the way it is managed. This helps especially those who have thought that the Government has put them in an awkward situation by making changes in the way this company is managed.]
The IFP supports this proposed Bill, whose object is the conversion of Eskom into a public company by having a share capital incorporated in terms of the Companies Act, Act 61 of 1973. We in the IFP hope that this will definitely bring about more efficiency and competitiveness in the running of Eskom. The IFP also hopes that exposure of Eskom to global trends will be effected and will bring many more other privileges which were not being enjoyed by general consumers at large.
The IFP supports the Bill without any reservations. [Applause.]
Mr K D S DURR: Chairperson, I have to say that we are troubled by this Bill. We are uncertain about it, particularly when Prince Machiavelli and Malcolm X are quoted in support of the legislation. [Laughter.]
We are normally enthusiastic supporters of privatisation or public-private partnerships or any steps to make service providers more efficient or to reduce costs. But this is the exception that proves the rule, and I believe that we need to be careful. I have to tell the hon the Minister that we are not even sure who owns Eskom. The state has never financed Eskom. Eskom was founded for and financed by the consumers that have used the services that it provided. If there are shares to be given out, I think that they should be given to the consumers who are the rightful owners of the corporation.
Eskom is one of the oldest, largest and one of the most successful power supply companies in the world, and it has been and remains central to the development of the regional economy and the improvement of life circumstances of all our people.
The Government proudly announces, justifiably, every year how many new homes have been connected. From our own energy sources - coal, water and uranium - it generates, I believe, the second lowest power cost in the world. This has given us low-cost electrified transport and has fostered the mining and manufacturing industry in South Africa and the region.
We believe taking this step in the possible direction of the break-up of Eskom is a retrograde step. It is possibly the right thing to do at the wrong time in our development history.
Aside from anything else, cheap power has kept our mines in production, particularly marginal mines. It has made the aluminium smelters of Richards Bay and Maputo possible. Our rail transport system has been shielded from oil price increases; we have been able to electrify our homes on a huge scale and we have, through the grid, been able to extend the benefits and the energy economies of scale to our neighbours in the region. In short, I would like to know whether we have, in fact, consulted our neighbours in the region, because these steps could affect them very seriously.
In short, it has been a neutral power source for the good of everyone in the region. Local authorities will also be able to buy wholesale power from Eskom and retail the power to the consumers, thereby providing a source of funding for local authorities.
We have so much that we want and need to change in South Africa. Let us not try and fix something which ``ain’t broke’’, as the Americans would say. Something is working well. We believe that we should be cautious and be very sure before we make a move in that direction.
The object of privatisation or restructuring is to improve efficiency and in Eskom we already have high levels of efficiency with low tarifs in a self-financing organisation that does not call upon the scarce resources and has never had problems in funding itself.
The Bill, as a whole, will have an impact on the SADC region. I would like to tell the hon the Minister that those are thoughts that are sincerely given. I hope that our reservations are proved to be unfounded and wrong. But under these circumstances, my party opposes the legislation
Mr M V MOOSA: Chairperson, it is very interesting that the ACDP, and particularly Mr Kent Durr, would oppose the legislation when he has been one of the people who had consistently, over time, ignored completely the request of welfare monopolies and so forth that have existed in this country. I am truly amazed.
That demonstrates something. With a Bill like this, we can have ostriches that will put their heads in the sand, on the one end hand, and those that put their heads above the sand on the other hand. The truth of the matter is that there is a middle road to walk when one is on the road to democracy and development in this country. That seems to be what is eluding everybody in these debates. The fact of the matter is that Mr Durr needs to understand that, regardless of the efficiency of Eskom, there is a global onslaught on our economy. There are multinational energy organisations that are operating on this continent and they are marching at a speed that we cannot imagine.
If we do not modernise our public corporations and utilities and do not enter the global area in trading vigorously and viciously, we are going to lose markets and we are also going to ensure that we lose our own edge in this country. This fantastic Eskom that Mr Durr talks about would not be so fantastic if, on the one end of the spectrum, we buried our heads in the sand. Let us go to the other end of the spectrum. Sandra Botha questions the morals of Cosatu and others for opposing this Bill, because they are concerned about privatisation. Once again, it is a case of burying one’s head in the sand. What we are building in this democracy is engagement, transparency and discourse. We expect organisations such as Cosatu and civil society to examine the processes that Government undertakes and to challenge every single process, so that when we finally embark on that process, we understand that it is for the good of the country and the people of South Africa.
It is good that Cosatu goes on strike. We have not come from a history like the apartheid history, which is the history of the allies of the DP, in which we bludgeon protest and disagreement. It is all right for organisations such as Cosatu, which is inside the ANC-alliance, or even those from outside, to come and say that they have some real and legitimate concerns about the delivery of services to our people, the extension of energy to the rural areas, the efficiency with which we do so and so forth. It is all right for Cosatu to say that the electorate needs to be consulted before one privatises some of the state’s utilities. It is all right for Government to say that we will do so, but that we are not going to stop going forward on the path of modernisation.
At the end of the day, as Government we have something simple to deliver. We have to deliver this economy and the whole process in Southern Africa into the global economy for one purpose only, and that is to alleviate the poverty of our people and to make sure that we take all those processes and those dinosaurs such as Eskom in its structure as a statutory body, into a modern and more efficient world. From that point of view I want to commend the Minister and the department for having allowed organisations such as Cosatu and the newspapers to engage Government in a transparent debate about where are we taking public utilities such as Eskom, which is, as we all agree, a welfare monopoly in many ways.
Eskom, as Mama Vilakazi said, is not an independent organisation. It delivers some very important things to our people and we expect it to continue delivering those things to our people over time. However, in doing so we cannot bury our heads in the sand. The department, the Minister and others have engaged our country on the issues. They have indicated the options. We can leave Eskom as it is, and lose the edge in the marketplace or have a situation in which other multinational corporations and energy players in the international field come and play on our turf. We will not be able to take this corporation beyond our borders. However, we can take another option, and that is to modernise this organisation so that we can meet the challenges of the 21st century. That is what the department has been saying to us. The department has been saying that to Cosatu and civil society.
It is correct for civil society to ask the questions such as: Is this modernisation going to be good for our people? Will it deliver us from poverty? Is it going to increase prices? Is it going to be used in order to privatise, because some of us are members of Cosatu or the SACP and may ideologically feel that we do not want privatisation. That is the democracy we have built. Those are the foundations upon which our new society rests. That is what our people have struggled for for so long. From that point of view, I want to once again congratulate the Minister and his department. This Bill is a good one, and this House should support it. [Applause.]
The MINISTER FOR PUBLIC ENTERPRISES: Chairperson, hon delegates, let me take this opportunity to thank all the political parties who have supported the Bill in this debate. There is one issue raised by Mr Durr which I want to highlight very briefly, and that is the issue of the involvement of stakeholders. All stakeholders, including organised business, were invited to make their inputs and many of them made written submissions which we have taken into account in finalising this Bill.
However, I need to emphasisen one stakeholder on which I need to engage the House and the public in general, namely Cosatu. We have had extensive consultations with Cosatu on this particular Bill. It started last year when we had engagements at a bilateral level between Government, represented by the Departments of Minerals and Energy and Public Enterprises and organised labour. From that time in November until now we have had no less than 11 meetings with Cosatu, excluding two meetings which I have had with the general secretary of Cosatu, Comrade Zwelinzima Vavi.
We have had very robust and engaging bilaterals trying to accommodate all their concerns. That is why I want to take this opportunity to indicate in precise terms what it is that we have incorporated which has come from Cosatu. Among others things, on the issue of the object of the Bill, they have emphasised the issue of the ownership aspect in the Bill and we have taken that into account. Regarding the issue of the protection of workers which was highlighted today, we have indicated that this Bill is not about privatisation. It is about converting Eskom from a statutory body into a limited liability company. By using this deeming route in this conversion, all the rights and obligations that Eskom had before the incorporation remain in place. This includes the protection of the rights of all Eskom employees, and this is actually contained in the Bill inasmuch as it is stated that this conversion of Eskom will not affect the conditions of service of employees. Therefore all those workers and employees of Eskom should rest assured that this state of affairs is going to continue even after this conversion. There is no ideological conversion that is going to occur merely turning Eskom into a limited liability company.
Regarding the issues of public consultation, in terms of the memorandum and articles of association and the regulations, those are some of the issues that we have taken into account. The developmental role of Eskom, as all the opposition parties have conceded has, in fact played a very critical role in the development process in South Africa. There is no way that the ANC Government at this hour, seven years into our democracy, can diminish this developmental role. In fact, we are going to accelerate it so that all the targets that we are aiming for are reached.
An important fact that I also want to highlight is this whole rolling out of electricity in the rural areas of South Africa. Some have this misconception that by converting Eskom into a company all those social obligations that we had are going to come to a stop. In fact, they are going to be accelerated, because now we even have what we call a National Electrification Fund which is located in the Department of Minerals and Energy and which is going to use resources even beyond Eskom for the electrification of the rural areas of our country.
I therefore want to assure delegates and the public in general that this is good for South Africa and for Eskom. This is also good for organised labour, because it will ensure that Eskom survives into the future and that it does not only end up here in South Africa, but also goes beyond the borders of the Republic, championing and implementing the African Renaissance that our President Thabo Mbeki is pursuing together with President Bouteflika of Algeria and President Obasanjo of Nigeria.
I thank hon members for having supported this Bill. Aluta continua! [Applause.]
Debate concluded.
Bill, subject to proposed amendments, agreed to in accordance with section 75 of the Constitution.
APPROPRIATION BILL
(Policy debate)
Vote No 12 - Statistics South Africa:
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr M L Mushwana): I do not see the Minister in the Chamber.
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE COUNCIL: Chairperson, there has been a small difficulty. The Minister is on his way here. May I ask that we proceed with the speakers’ list and allow Ms Mahlangu, the chairperson of the Select Committee on Finance, to speak now.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr M L Mushwana): Does the House agree to that? The hon member may continue.
Ms Q D MAHLANGU: Mr Chairperson, I am not a Minister, by the way. [Interjections.]
Mr M V MOOSA: Why are you wearing a T-shirt in the House?
Ms Q D MAHLANGU: May I just explain why I am wearing a T-shirt? Members are harassing me because they want to know why I am wearing this T-shirt. I am sure we all know and understand that today we are discussing Budget Vote No 12, Statistics South Africa. This T-shirt signifies that we must all be counted in Census 2001, which takes place from 10 to 31 October.
Mr M V MOOSA: Mr Chairperson, on a point of order: In terms of the rules of the Chamber, no member is allowed to wear clothing unbecoming to the decorum of the House, and that includes T-shirts and sandshoes such as takkies. [Laughter.] The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr M L Mushwana): You are out of order, hon member.
Mr M V MOOSA: If this hon member is allowed to do that, Chairperson, it is wrong.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr M L Mushwana): You are out of order, hon member. [Laughter.] The hon member Ms Mahlangu may proceed.
Ms Q D MAHLANGU: Chairperson, on a more serious note, I just want to raise something which is of serious concern to me as an individual and, in the first place, in my capacity as a South African citizen. As the chairperson of the select committee, I must point out that we only have about three provinces participating in this debate today, including mine. To me that says a lot about how people in this country regard a debate on a subject such as statistics. I believe provinces and everyone else, including ordinary citizens, should begin to take statistics as a serious issue.
I want to preface my input with a quotation from this book, which is a survey done by the World Bank on many developing countries. It refers to the following:
The absence of bread and the necessity to send the children to the neighbour, since they had already gone to ask for bread several times before and hesitated to go again.
The relative who died in hospital because they could not buy the required medicine in time.
Their children had forgotten the taste of sugar and meat. Their children could not go to school due to the absence of clothes and shoes.
I am reading this in an attempt to demonstrate the role and importance of statistics in improving the lives of the people that I have been talking about.
The important role of Statistics SA in economic policy-making is seldom understood and appreciated. The formulation of economic policy, both monetary and fiscal, is Statistics SA-intensive, meaning that monetary and fiscal policy is statistical information-intensive.
Statistics SA produces the consumer price index, popularly known as the CPI, on a monthly basis. The consumer price index is used to measure inflation. In addition, Statistics SA had to redesign its consumer price index when inflation targeting was introduced in South Africa in February 2000.
I also want to indicate that this variation was chosen because the overall headline consumer price index is directly influenced by changes in the Reserve Bank’s monetary policy. A relaxation in monetary policy leads to lower interest rates in general, including mortgage interest costs, which affect the bond that one pays every month. This, in turn, leads to lower measured inflation. However, the converse is not actually true. Conversely, when the monetary policy is tightened in order to reduce inflation, the mortgage rates do not drop, resulting in inflation through higher mortgage rates.
To overcome this problem, Statistics SA, together with the Reserve Bank, had to remove mortgage interest costs from the consumer price index for inflation targeting purposes. I also want to deal with the division of revenue and how it is affected by the statistics collected from time to time, in particular the coming Census 2001 and the previous Census 1996, in which some provinces were disadvantaged, or so they say, because resource allocations were based on figures that were not necessarily accurate. Hopefully, the statistics to be collected this year will improve such conditions.
It was indicated to members of the committee that some provinces that we visited recently border on other countries, in particular Mozambique and Swaziland in relation to Mpumalanga. Between South Africa, or the province of Mpumalanga specifically, and Swaziland, one cannot tell the difference between a Swazi and a South African citizen. They both speak Swazi. It is therefore very difficult to provide services. In this instance, it affects the provision of services, especially to South Africans who need those services. The Free State, the Northern Province and all other provinces bordering on foreign countries are also affected.
Now I come to the role of household surveys, which are conducted as frequently as possible. It is important for all of us to co-operate with such surveys, but the people concerned should also be asked relevant questions which inform the policy-making processes, because if we have the correct data and collect the correct statistics, we will be able to make correct policy choices and therefore allocate resources adequately.
Collaboration between Statistics SA and other institutions, such as the CSIR and the HSRC, is very important. We would like to see this continuing from time to time if it is not happening often enough. We have been informed that it does happen occasionally, but we would appreciate it if it happened frequently.
In this regard I also want to highlight the readiness of provinces. In my understanding, only one province has pronounced its readiness for Census
- Unfortunately it is the Western Cape, but their readiness is more than welcome in this instance. I would like to call upon all provinces to make sure that they are ready for Census 2001 and, in particular, that people are able to co-operate with the enumerators who are going to be collecting the statistics.
I want to commend Statistics SA for the training programmes that they have come up with, in particular those aimed at training more people in mathematics, so that we can gain the skills that we dearly need as a country. I think this is in line with the medium-term budget policy statement, in which Government’s priorities are outlined. One of them is human capital development. This is in accordance with that and is applauded by the committee.
I think there is also a need for us to concentrate on the informal sector, because from time to time Cosatu and other stakeholders have contested figures or information released by the Reserve Bank around the increase of employment, in particular, as a consequence of the increase in the number of people in the informal sector. I think if we could get correct data and relevant information around the question of unemployment in our country, in particular, we would be able to know whether we are making headway or regressing as a country.
I also just want to express appreciation for the help that other countries, such as Australia, Canada and Sweden, are giving us regarding statistics. Some of these countries helped us while we were struggling against apartheid, when the statistics that we had then favoured the interests of the minority, as opposed to the majority. I think now we are moving in the right direction.
The last thing that I want to talk about is the SA Statistics Council, as provided for in the Act. Provinces should utilise these bodies as much as possible, so that they can be able to raise relevant issues that they are supposed to raise.
Lastly, I just want to call on members of this House and all members of
Parliament to play their role in their respective constituencies in order
to make sure that all South African citizens are counted, not for the sake
of being counted, but for the sake of informing policy-making choices and
relevant allocation of resources. Masibalwe sonke,''ri balwe rohle.’’
[Let us all be counted.] [Applause.]
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr M L Mushwana): Order! I welcome the hon the Deputy Minister and call upon him to introduce the debate, because we have not started debating.
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE COUNCIL: [Inaudible.]
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr M L Mushwana): There is no debate, Chief Whip. The Minister must introduce the debate.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF FINANCE: Chairperson, we had already arranged differently, and that was that I would come in at the end. But if the Chair rules that I should open the debate, I will do so.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr M L Mushwana): Yes, otherwise there is no debate. We need somebody to introduce the debate. [Interjections.] You just put the question on your Budget Vote, so that we have a debate.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF FINANCE: So you would like me to formally open the debate.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr M L Mushwana): Yes, there must be a debate.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF FINANCE: Deputy Chairperson, hon members, I must first apologise that the House had to begin the debate before I could arrive.
In the past year our President has presented us with a vision for economic recovery in Africa. This vision rests on the foundations of democratic governance. It emphasises sound and sustainable economic policies. It puts the needs of the poor first.
In view of the message about democratic governance that our President took to the British government last week, this House should note our own substantial commitment to the development of our region and continent. I would like to focus on how some of these commitments relate to this vision.
This Government has a vision for a better life for all. This ideal should not be lost as we move towards globalisation and increasing competition with other countries. The commitment to improve life circumstances for all should be underpinned by timely, accurate and reliable official statistics. Statistics SA is in line with Government policy. It is compliant with SADC protocols and it is meeting its international obligations of integration into the regional and world economy.
The apartheid era saw a fragmentation of the statistical system, resulting in poor quality statistics designed to support the interests of a minority rather than providing an accurate picture of the social, economic and demographic situation of all of South Africa’s people.
The quest for best statistical practice has, within a very short period of time, made an impact. We are pleased to report that in May this year South Africa was elected a member of the UN Statistics Commission. We will, accordingly, be giving statistical advice to the UN Social and Economic Commission, which meets annually to review how well the international community is served by statistical systems.
Regionally we have done well in terms of being a focal point for the SADC 2000-01 round of censuses. The point about this is that there are a number of countries in the SADC region that have been holding censuses from last year until this year. What we have sought to do is to try and co-ordinate our approach to all of these censuses so that we can really create a regional statistical database.
We have contributed to the efforts of the SADC secretariats in marshalling both intellectual and material resources for the harmonising of measurements relating to demographics and economics. We have also taken the lead in time-use studies, which, among other issues, highlight unpaid female labour. We shall be sharing these important findings nationally and with SADC shortly. This is something in which I think we should take a lot of interest, because there is, indeed, in many countries a lot of labour which is not taken into account when the size of an economy or the goods and services that are produced in an economy are calculated.
In 1996 we subscribed to the IMF’s Special Data Dissemination standard - SDDS. This is a very strict data integrity requirement for member states. It is meant to improve the effectiveness of the fund’s surveillance system. The SDDS is also meant to inform sound macroeconomic policies. The improvement of information flow facilitates confidence in our own financial markets. South Africa is the only African country to have subscribed to the SDDS and one of the very few countries to have fully complied within the set timeframe.
A massive revitalisation of official statistics took place from 1995 to date. A key element which came to the fore was an increase in both the number and the quality of statistical products. Entire sets of statistics have been re-engineered to ensure compliance with the SDDS.
In keeping with our commitment to transparency and adherence to these international standards, we have agreed to an assessment of our economic and financial data, which has resulted in a preliminary IMF report on observance of standards and codes. In addition to validating the statistical standards with which we comply, this report will assist the Treasury, Statistics SA and the Reserve Bank in identifying priorities for further improvement.
We also boldly subjected ourselves to further scrutiny by accepting to be part of a pilot exercise of the IMF and the World Bank, under their Financial Sector Assessment Programme - FSAP - in 1998. Since 1998, three FSAPs have been produced, all of which confirm a general soundness of the financial system, and which have seen no risks to macroeconomic stability.
Statistics SA entered into a wide range of collaborative activities with other departments, which ranged from the construction of a national spatial database to user-driven household surveys, and a census that provides provincial breakdowns of social and economic characteristics of our population.
Another noteworthy crosscutting initiative has been the creation of the business register infrastructure, developed together with the revenue service, to facilitate a better sampling frame.
These efforts culminated in the passing of a new Statistics Act in 1999. Subsequently, Statistics SA was given full departmental status and the appointment of a Statistician-General was made in January this year. In that regard, I would like to introduce to the House the new Statistician- General, Mr Padi Lehohla, who many will remember was heading the 1996 census effort.
The benefits of these developments have been in the deepening of democracy. The demarcation board, in their delimitation of local government boundaries, to a large extent, applied the data from the census and other surveys conducted by Statistics SA. Although not exclusively so, the allocation of budgets is driven by the population numbers, particularly our indigent policies.
Despite these achievements, there is a need to review the outputs of the organisation in greater detail. Our commitment to transparency demands that we test these in terms of their veracity and robustness, methodology, quality and relevance. In this vein, the new statistics council, which is the watchdog of the output of the system, has put up an ambitious programme of reviews of Statistics SA products and data, and has started with the labour statistics series.
Statistics SA’s quest for providing a broad range of sustainable quality statistics is underpinned by the need and justification for creating a national statistics system. There are three main considerations that can impact negatively when such a system does not exist or when it is ineffective. The first is the financial and quality implications of a system based on a model that has stand-alone silos and duplicates measurements across themes and silos. The second is the political cost of failing to report accurately and timeously and, therefore, failing to manage and be accountable. The third is the cost of making inappropriate policy decisions due to a dearth of cohesive data.
The national statistical system aims to enhance the capacity of the state to formulate and evaluate policy decisions based on appropriate and quality data. This will be achieved through the creation of an integrated network of state institutions. To this end, we will improve on the existing relations and infrastructure in the provinces. Researchers and policy-makers in a range of Government departments are to be jointly trained under the auspices of SAMDI, in conjunction with Statistics SA, to enhance the usage of statistics. In this regard, we are exploring the creation of an institution in South Africa that will train in official statistics.
Many members may not know that there is no institution in South Africa that teaches in official statistics. In the meantime, therefore, arrangements for the training of our staff in official statistics are at an advanced stage in partnership with other reputable regional institutions, such as the Institute of Statistics and Applied Economics at Makerere University and the East African Statistical Training Centre in Tanzania. If these countries contributed to South Africa in military training during our fight for freedom in the past, this time around they will contribute in statistical training for social development. Achieving economic literacy, which is a passion of the President, is predicated upon achieving statistical literacy.
Statistics SA will continue to engage in a series of activities to improve its statistical collections during the financial year 2001-02. To this end, Statistics SA will meet the preconditions to the successful collection and dissemination of statistics, namely compiling a regularly updated and comprehensive business register and conducting a well-run population census for providing the basic tools for drawing samples.
Now I would like to turn to Census 2001. An immediate challenge to the organisation is the mounting of the second census of the population under democratic rule. The Minister of Finance launched this in the National Assembly recently as part of a massive campaign calling on citizens to participate. Launches have been made by premiers in seven provinces to date. The eighth is taking place in Gauteng tomorrow. I wish to thank premiers for having taken this task in the spirit it commands.
The CensusAtSchool project, a joint initiative between the Department of Education and Statistics SA, is being implemented successfully throughout the provincial administrations. The objective of this operation is to promote awareness amongst the public about, firstly, the forthcoming census and, more importantly, as a significant step towards entrenching statistical literacy in society.
Census 2001, besides providing information for bench-marking progress and identifying areas that require further development, marks a big leap in terms of technological innovation that will benefit the broader society. With the geographic information system toolkit, we will be able to easily access and visualise data on the state of affairs in our constituencies.
Through Census 2001, we are introducing new technology by scanning documents or questionnaires on a grand scale. The benefits of this system are being explored favourably for all paper-based processing in Statistics SA. This has also been offered to the Revenue Service and Home Affairs. I think that I should stop here. Perhaps one can allude to some of the issues that I have in the prepared speech at the end of the debate. [Applause.]
Dr E A CONROY: Chairperson, hon Deputy Minister of Finance and colleagues, an author by the name of Rex Stout once said that there are two kinds of statistics, namely the kind that one looks up and the kind that one makes up.
Samuel Clemens, better known as Mark Twain, the creator of the storybook characters Tom Sawyer and Huckleberry Finn, went even a step further by declaring:
There are three kinds of lies, namely lies, damned lies and statistics.
This illustrates the disdain with which some people, and even learned people at that, have treated the subject of statistics over the decades. Perhaps they did not have sufficient understanding of the subject and did not know how to interpret statistics, or they knew something that we do not.
Be that as it may, the fact that I mention this does not mean that I or the hon members of this august House harbour the same negative sentiments towards a highly scientific, respected and specialised discipline.
Ek noem statistiek ‘n hoogs gerespekteerde en spesialis dissipline want hoewel ander intellektuele van die minder eksakte dissiplines geneig is om afbrekend teenoor die onderwerp te wees, weet ons dat in die moderne geglobaliseerde wêreld waarin ons leef, ons nie sonder tydige, akkurate en toeganklike amptelike statistiek sinvolle, verantwoordelike en verantwoordbare besluite kan neem nie.
Daar is feitlik nie ‘n staatsdepartement in Suid-Afrika wat nie die strategiese beplanning en evaluering van sy werksaamhede op òf ekonomiese òf sosiale òf demografiese statistiek grond nie. As hulle nie van dié waardevolle instrument gebruik maak nie, tas hulle in die donker en trap hulle klei.
‘n Paar interessante en ongetwyfeld bruikbare syfers wat uit die 1996- sensus blyk, is onder meer dat die totale bevolking van Suid-Afrika in dié stadium 40,6 miljoen siele getel het; dat KwaZulu-Natal die grootste deel, naamlik 20,7%, en die Noord-Kaap die kleinste deel, naamlik 2,1%, van die bevolking verteenwoordig het; dat die vroulike geslag die mansgeslag met ‘n kortkop van 51,9% teenoor 48,1% geklop het; dat slegs die helfte van alle Suid-Afrikaanse huishoudings chemiese of spoeltoilette gehad het; en dat 44,7% van alle huishoudings lopende water binne-in die huis gehad het en 58,1% elektrisiteit vir beligting gebruik het.
Die diens wat deur Statistiek Suid-Afrika gelewer word, is onontbeerlik en dié instansie verdien ongetwyfeld al die waardering en ondersteuning wat hy van dié Huis kan kry. Daarom doen ek graag vandag ‘n beroep op alle verantwoordelike en patriotiese Suid-Afrikaners om hul volle steun en samewerking te gee aan Sensus 2001 wat vanjaar van 10 tot 31 Oktober sal plaasvind. [Applous.] (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)
[I am calling statistics a highly respected and specialist discipline because, although other intellectuals in the less exact disciplines are inclined to be negative towards this subject, we know that in the modern and globalised world we live in we cannot take sensible, responsible and justified decisions without timeous, accurate and accessible official statistics.
There is practically no state department in South Africa that does not base the strategic planning and evaluation of its activities on economical, social or demographic statistics. If they do not utilise this valuable instrument, they are groping in the dark and do not know which way to turn.
A few interesting and undoubtedly useful figures evident from the 1996 census are, inter alia, that at that stage South Africa’s total population numbered 40,6 million souls; that KwaZulu-Natal represented the largest section, namely 20,7%, and the Northern Cape the smallest section, namely 2,1%, of the population; that the female gender beat the male gender by a small margin of 51,9% as opposed to 48,1%; that only half of all of South Africa’s households had chemical or flush toilets; and that 44,7% of all households had running water inside the home and 58,1% used electricity for lighting. The service that is rendered by Statistics South Africa is essential and this body undoubtedly deserves all the appreciation and support that it can get from this House. That is why today I would like to appeal to all responsible and patriotic South Africans to lend their full support and co- operation to Census 2001, which this year will take place from 10 to 31 October. [Applause.]]
Mr J MAKGATHO (Eastern Cape): Chairperson, I am not sure how to address you, because the last time I looked up, the Deputy Chairperson was in the Chair. You are probably Chair of Chairs.
I am entering this debate with some confusion in my mind, because the Premier of the Eastern Cape once stated in the House that Census 1996 could never have been accurate in the Eastern Cape because he was not counted. [Laughter.]
Before I start on the Eastern Cape submission, the other day in the
legislature we had an argument with a senior legal adviser. We were arguing
about the PFMA. I was questioning something. He gave me an answer, and then
realised that he did not give me a proper answer. He came to me after that
and said that there were three ladies in a balloon. On the ground they saw
a dog. They said, Where are we?'', shouting to the dog. The dog said,
An hour from town, probably 50km away.’’ He said that the information was
precise, to the point, but it was irrelevant. So the lady who shouted said,
That dog must be a lawyer.'' He said,How do you know?’’ She said, ``He
gave us precise information, to the point, but we still do not know where
we are.’’ [Laughter.]
It is irrefutable that accurate and timeous statistical information constitutes one of the elements that form the lifeblood of the modern economy, as well as the Government.
Assumptions made about reliable and accurate information form the basis of proper planning, implementation and monitoring. It is therefore imperative that more detailed, reliable and desegregated information be made available.
As I am making this submission on behalf of the province, I would say that information should be accurate, and it should also be made at a subnational level to allow us as provinces to do socioeconomic planning for development at provincial level, at district level and at local level.
The reason I am making this submission in this way is to begin to understand that we, as the Eastern Cape, appreciate the proposed policy developments that are made by Statistics SA. However, we are saying that information should be given in minute detail. Arguments that are going to follow will be testimony to this.
We are saying that, if we get improved, quality economic surveys, especially given the uneconomic development in the provinces, without begrudging those provinces that are better developed … [Interjections.] I will not say. I am not at liberty to say.
There are also poverty indicators; the taking into consideration of peculiar situations that prevail in different provinces; the increasing of the sample size in rural surveys, and presumably taking into consideration topography. The reason I am raising this is because I come from the Eastern Cape. One may want to draw a distinction between the Eastern Cape, which is inaccessible in some areas - for instance, if one takes Willowvale - and look at another rural area which does not have the same topography; then one is able to come up with, probably, irrelevant information. So I am saying, on behalf of the Eastern Cape, that we need to take that into consideration.
It would then be much appreciated if the elapsed time between the collection of the information and the publication thereof could be taken into account, given the fact that it is IT, period. We are living in modern times when it should be easy to co-ordinate this information and to make the information available.
If we look at the division of revenue that was quoted here, one of the
things that is expected of us as provinces is the producing of credible
budgets, and no longer including education, health and welfare, but adding
infrastructure to them. If one looks at where we need infrastructure in the
Eastern Cape, it is in what was then the Transkei. Our government in the
Eastern Cape, especially the MEC for finance, Enoch Godongwana, talked
about what we call the Ntloyiya'' syndrome. Untloyiya’’ is an eagle
that tries to catch every chicken, but ends up with nothing because it
wants to do everything at the same time. [Interjections.] So, we are saying
that for us to plan, we need information.
I use an eagle as an example. If one watches an eagle preying on a rodent, it calculates before it pounces the distance between the animal that it is going to pounce on and the hole. The eagle does not go directly, it goes in between that and the hole. That calculation is done because it has the necessary tools and instruments to be able to do that. So for us to be able to plan as a province, we need that reliable, timeous, instantaneous information. In between …
The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Hon member, your time is up. [Interjections.] [Applause.]
Mr J MAKGATHO: In conclusion, I was going to say: Tel ons by.'' [Count us
in.] Count us in.Re bale.’’ [Count us in.] We are in. [Applause.]
Mr N M RAJU: Madam Chair, hon Deputy Minister, hon special delegates and hon colleagues, I started my teaching career at the Stanger Indian High School on the North Coast of Natal, in the early 1960s. The town is now called Kwadukuza. [Interjections.] Those were the volatile years of political strife; political persecution and political oppression; when the non-white peoples of South Africa had to run the gauntlet of the ferocious security police of the seemingly invincible granite juggernaut of the Verwoerd regime; with the draconian laws of apartheid and of racial discrimination, group areas; separate but unequal facilities - almost always inadequate; and when the dignity of …
Rev P MOATSHE: Chairperson is it parliamentary for the hon member to talk of ``non-whites’’?
The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! The member was talking within the context of the past. That is how I took it. Carry on, Mr Raju.
Mr N M RAJU: Thank you, Chair, I appreciate that. People must listen. [Interjections.]
The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: What is out of order, hon member?
Mr S L E FENYANYE: Chairperson, as you have allowed the member to make reference to non-whites as a term that was used in the past, will you allow me to use non-blacks in the context of something that took place in the past? The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Your question is irrelevant for now. It is not a point of order. Mr Raju continue, please.
Mr N M RAJU: Thank you, Chair. Those were the volatile years of political strife, with the draconian laws of apartheid and of racial discrimination; group areas; separate but unequal facilities - almost always inadequate; and when men, women and children who happened to be of the wrong colour were accosted and assaulted on all sides, without the slightest provocation or on the flimsiest grounds, with such jackboot ferocity of which German fascist storm troopers would have been proud.
It was the year of the Rivonia trials. It was the year when the former President of the ANC, Chief Albert Luthuli, was house-arrested and confined to his home in Groutville, in the Lower Tugela district. Fortunately, for young activists like me, Chief Luthuli’s house arrest meant that we could meet him, clandestinely of course, in Stanger where I lived and taught.
We had an underground cell, the Natal Indian Congress cell 29, of which I was the secretary. During one of our many discussions, the subject turned to teachers and politics. And Chief Luthuli said to me and I quote:
Nelly boy …
- that was what I was known as -
… if you tell your class that 87% of South Africa’s land is in the hands of 13% of its population, that is the whites, you are not talking politics, you are teaching arithmetic.
That was my initial induction to statistics. That, of course, gave me the inspiration to intensify my activities in political conscientising.
Figures can be very interesting and illuminating. Statistics SA is in the business of providing, and I quote:
… timely, accurate and accessible official statistics to inform economic growth, development and democracy in South Africa.
Good government is only good when it can identify and address policy and delivery challenges. Statistics SA has the onerous responsibility of ensuring that it provides accurate information to the various Government departments who, in turn, can base their delivery mechanisms on that information to ensure optimum benefit to the intended beneficiaries, that is, the public. For example, on a recent trip to Mpumalanga, as a member of the Select Committee on Finance which is under the able leadership of Dorothy Mahlangu, we were informed of the confusion and problems created for the department of social welfare by the influx of people from neighbouring provinces and countries. We were informed that it was virtually impossible for accurate data or statistics to be kept so that pensions and maintenance grants for children could be accurately assessed and paid out. Claimants, of course, far exceeded figures catered for.
Statistics become paramount in importance if the citizens of our country are to be properly taken care of. Statistics SA does not make policy, the Government does. But the policies that the Government makes can only be good if they are based on sound, scientifically produced data and statistics. There is no doubt that Statistics SA is a very busy organisation because our new democracy is busy transforming society in multifarious aspects which are constantly changing. The various Ministries and Government departments are sustained by an insatiable hunger and thirst for up-to-date information, data and statistics. Should these not be provided by Statistics SA satisfactorily, then Government departments would suffer from the pangs of information kwashiorkor, that is, information malnutrition. Nobody … [Interjections.] needs some education and semantics … [Interjections] … at my own time. [Laughter.] [Applause.] [Time expired.]
The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! Hon members, before I call the next
speaker, I would like to remind you that the rules of the House are that we
address each other as hon''. You did not sayhon’’ Dorothy Mahlangu.
Mr N M RAJU: Chairperson, I apologise for that.
Mr J F AULSEBROOK (KwaZulu-Natal): Chairperson, hon Deputy Minister and colleagues in the House, we in the province of KwaZulu-Natal wish to compliment Statistics SA for the sterling work and dedication in compiling and maintaining a comprehensive statistical database, which serves a variety of end users, in both the public and private sectors, and contributes, in great measure, to improving, planning and decision-making in the country as a whole.
The need for reliable and accurate official statistical information in a progressive country cannot be overemphasised. Economic and social advancement hinges on this class of information.
There are, however, two specific concerns, which I, on behalf of our province, wish to address today. Firstly, because of the census which is held only every five years, much of the data and many of the socioeconomic indicators become dated towards the end of the five-year interval after publication of the statistics.
With the exception of certain demographic and population statistics, Statistics SA does not have a mechanism in place to annually update or to provide estimates on a variety of socioeconomic indicators, such as the access to services, literacy rates, employment figures, etc. This has the effect of limiting the end users, in the case of our provincial government, to very outdated statistics for the purpose of policy formulation, planning and resource allocation. For example, many of the socioeconomic indicators which are currently in use date back to the 1996 census and these will chronically be out of date by the time the next census results become available in 2003. Secondly, from the point of view of the provincial government, it is a matter of great regret that Statistics SA no longer collects statistics on gross geographical product. Our information is that Statistics SA stopped collecting gross geographical product data in 1994 and cited budgetary constraints as the reasons for this unfortunate decision. This makes it very difficult, if not impossible, to accurately measure and monitor critical indicators such as regional growth rates, the overall levels of economic activity in each province and the like. This is all the more serious because both the National Treasury and the FFC models used to determine the equitable share allocation to provinces rely on estimates of economic activity in each province.
In the absence of official GGP statistics, these estimates rely on very unreliable data such as regional services councils, or as they are now known, district councils, regarding levies, turnover and employee remunerations to establish the relative size of provincial economies.
The provincial treasury, and the provincial government as a whole, are experiencing great difficulty in conducting a macroeconomic analysis of issues such as the impact of provincial government spending and the regional economy in the absence of reliable GGP statistics. This, in turn, impacts on the quality of forward-planning strategic decision-making.
In the light of the above considerations, we would urge Statistics SA to investigate the feasibility of collecting official gross geographical product statistics once again, to assist provinces with the all-important task of prioritising and allocating scarce resources within an overall macroeconomic plan.
In conclusion, we in KwaZulu-Natal province, in supporting this Vote, would go further and support an even larger allocation of funds, if it meant the more efficient provision of timeously supplied appropriate statistical data that includes GGP statistics which have been made easier for all to access. Finally, we in KwaZulu-Natal are currently preparing for and will be giving full support to Census 2001. [Applause.]
Mr N M ISAACS (Western Cape): Chairperson, the launch of Census 2001 in the Western Cape on 14 June was the second democratic census in the history of South Africa. Everybody is aware of the fact that the actual census will take place from 10 October to 31 October 2001. Census night is on 9 October, the night when it must be noted how many people spend the evening in every house, and not to forget the many who do not have roofs over their heads and are sleeping on the sidewalks, as well as our dear street children.
Die Wes-Kaapse Premier het by die bekendstelling gevra hoekom dit nodig is om ‘n akkurate sensusopname te hê. Die standaardantwoord is: Sodat ons behoorlik kan beplan. As ons weet hoeveel kinders daar is, hoe oud hulle is, sal ons weet hoeveel skole nodig is. Ons sal ook weet waar dit gebou moet word. As ons weet hoeveel mense voertuie besit, sal ons behoorlike padprogramme kan saamstel. Dieselfde geld vir hospitale, parke, sportgronde, biblioteke en behuising. Dit is ook belangrik om te weet wat die gemiddelde ouderdomsvlak van die inwoners is; hoeveel bejaardes daar is, sodat daar ook vir hulle beplan kan word.
In die 1996-sensus was daar meer vroue as mans en hierdie punt is reeds vroeër vermeld: 51% vroue teenoor 49% mans. Sewe-en dertig persent van ons bevolking was tussen 16 en 35 jaar oud, terwyl 5,2% van die Wes-Kaapse bevolking ouer as 65 jaar was. Daar is ook met skok besef dat 13% van ons bevolking ouer as 15 jaar is en glad nie kon lees of skryf nie.
Ook is vasgestel dat 60% van die Kaapprovinsie se inwoners Afrikaans praat en slegs 20% Engels praat. Dit wys net hoe belangrik statistiek is. Nog verdere inligting wat verskil van die sensus is dat 76% van al die huishoudings elektrisiteit het, terwyl 85% toilette en 75% waterkrane in hul huise het; wat alles ver bo die landsgemiddeld is. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)
[The Premier of the Western Cape asked at the introduction why it was necessary to undertake an accurate census. The standard reply is: So that proper planning can take place. If we know how many children there are, and their age, we will know how many schools are required. We will also know where they should be built. If we know how many people possess vehicles, we will be able to draft proper programmes for roads. The same goes for hospitals, parks, sports grounds, libraries and housing. It is also important to know the average age of citizens; how many elderly there are, so that planning for them can take place.
In the 1996 census there were more women than men and this point has already been mentioned earlier: 51% women as opposed to 49% men. Thirty- seven percent of our population was between 16 and 35 years old, while 5,2% of the population of the Western Cape was older than 65 years. It was realised with alarm that 13% of our population was older than 15 and could not read or write.
It was also established that 60% of the inhabitants of the Western Cape spoke Afrikaans, and only 20% English. This just shows how important statistics are. Further information that differs from the census is that 76% of all households have electricity, while 85% have toilets and 75% have taps in their houses, which is well above average in the country.]
A further very important point is the skewed figures that were derived from the last census. According to the last Census SA Statistical Services in the Western Cape, the population was established at 3,9 million - some 161 000 people fewer than counted in the previous census. The Western Cape government was convinced that this was not a true reflection of our population. The question we still wrestle with is: How was is possible that each and every province in South Africa recorded a population increase, whilst the Western Cape recorded a population decrease?
Mrs A M VERSFELD: Sê hulle! Sê hulle! [Tussenwerpsels.] [Tell them! Tell them! [Interjections.]]
Mr N M ISAACS: I am speaking purely from the point of view of census figures, and if anybody wants to dispute it, they should have their fight with the census people.
We had our own count done by a well-known demographer, Prof Sadie from the University of Stellenbosch. His count was way above 4 million, and this was even borne out further by Absa, who put it at 4,23 million. The difference has led to the fact that, based on with the FFC formula, the Western Cape received less. Mrs A M VERSFELD: Sê hulle! Sê hulle! [Tell them! Tell them!]
Mr N M ISAACS: If we are right and this stands out like a sore thumb, and if all the other provinces have shown a gain and we in the Western Cape show a decrease, then there must be something rotten in the state of Denmark. The best thing to do in our view was to have our figures tested. [Interjections.] It is the hon member’s prerogative to disagree with me. That I will not even challenge.
Almal is bewus daarvan dat die Wes-Kaap gesien word as die provinsie met die beste gesondheidsdiens, behuising, sosiale dienste - nou luister sy nie, Voorsitter - werksgeleenthede, dit is ‘n ellelange lys. Ons skole bars uit hul nate van kinders wat hier hul onderwys wil ontvang. [Tussenwerpsels.] Dis ‘n feit soos ‘n koei. Ons weet van kinders wat gekom het met rapporte …
Mev J WITBOOI: Hulle kom van ander provinsies af.
Mnr N M ISAACS: Gee my tog die kans om te vertel van soveel kinders. Ons laaste telling toe die skole op Vrydag sluit, verskil van toe die skool die volgende jaar open. Toe is daardie skool te klein, soos hulle aangekom het. Wat sê dit? Die beste is maar altyd hier in die Wes-Kaap. [Tussenwerpsels.] (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)
[We are all aware that the Western Cape is regarded as being the province with the best health service, housing, social services - now she is not listening, Chair - job opportunities, the list is endless. Our schools are bursting at the seams with children who want to be educated here. [Interjections.] This is an absolute fact. We know of children who came with reports …
Mrs J WITBOOI: They are from other provinces.
Mr N M ISAACS: Just give me a chance to tell the House of so many children. Our last count, when the schools break up on Friday, differs from the day the schools reopen the following year. Then that school is too small, as the children have arrived. What does this tell us? The best is always to be found here in the Western Cape. [Interjections.]]
The high rate of urbanisation among Africans is explained by the fact that the Cape metropolitan area offers some of the best opportunities for employment in a time of deteriorating economic circumstances. [Interjections.]
If members would just take a count, I can promise them that people think that milk and honey is flowing down our streets. [Interjections.] It is remarkable that everybody feels that they want to be in the Western Cape. [Interjections.]
Consequently, many people in the TBVC states, generally and from the former Transkei, particularly, migrated to the Western Cape. It is a fact. They migrated from Umtata and all over the Eastern Cape. They think that the Western Cape is the star to every wandering barque. That is the way to find a home. [Interjections.]
I could even go into the sex ratio, but I am not going to. I want to emphasize that the unemployment rate is lower in the Western Cape than in the rest of the country. [Interjections.] In South Africa as a whole …
Ms Q D MAHLANGU: In town, yes. But what about Khayelitsha? Mr N M ISAACS: In South Africa as a whole, 17% of the population is found to be unemployed when using the strict definition, and 29% is unemployed using the expanded one. This may indicate that there are more work opportunities in the Western Cape than elsewhere in the country. [Interjections.] It may also indicate that the transport to a place of job- seeking is more accessible and cheaper in the Western Cape. [Interjections.] [Time expired.]
Mr A MARAIS: Chairperson, perhaps the hon member has not been to Uitsig where sewerage in the streets forms part of the landscape of the place. Perhaps he needs to visit that place. [Interjections.]
Deputy Minister and colleagues, in 1990 Farouk and McKellar pointed out that in development planning special attention should be paid to the ways in which demographic factors affect not only the quantity, but also the quality of the human resources base. Thus, their claim, and I quote:
The implications of demographic changes must be integrated into developmental planning if social and economic objectives are to achieved at all levels of planning, that is, overall macroplanning, sectoral planning, regional and local planning.
Moving from this perspective, I submit that the Free State was recently declared the second poorest province in the country. To derive the most out of our strategic planning efforts, demographic studies of the targeted communities and areas become an absolute necessity. We are convinced that if this reality had been detected immediately after the last census, our proactive response would have been more timely and beneficial to the people of our province. It may even have impacted positively on the equitable share of our province.
We have large concentrations of poor people in QwaQwa, Botshabelo, Thaba Nchu, the south western Free State, the Gold Fields, etc. This reality makes rapid urbanisation an indispensable matter. This, in turn, places a disproportionate responsibility on local government and the people who can afford to pay a little extra for services.
Living data is what is required. Not only past and current information, but also reliable information about the future, will influence the manner in which we proactively plan for the provision of services. In other words, environmental changes determine the relevance of the current available information.
Internal migratory patterns impact on the economic situation of our province and other provinces. I would like to make an example. The other day - I cannot remember at which meeting we were - I made an observation that if one comes to Cape Town in the morning, one sees a steady increase in the number of foreign cars around here. Such possible emigration of economically active and professional persons from our province to the Western Cape, especially, and, perhaps, Kwazulu-Natal and Gauteng, will eventually impact on the competitiveness of our province and likewise, the capabilities of other provinces.
Demographically, it means that the city’s population increases. On the other hand, as the city’s population decreases, the utilisation of infrastructure is affected downwards and it becomes more expensive to maintain.
There has been much debate about the fiscal autonomy of provinces in recent times. The FFC recommends that due consideration be given to a provincial tax, something that may be devised from a pay-as-you-earn basis. This begs the question: Now that people are relocating to other provinces, how feasible would such a tax be for our province? Would it extend the current disparity? Again, I want to propagate the necessity of living data.
According to Bryson and Roering, and I quote:
Strategic planning focuses on achieving the best fit between an organisation and its environment.
Emanating from this perspective is the fact that a common orientation throughout the Government creates favourable conditions for improved performance. The strategic plan directs all stakeholders to consider the implications of any decision on the basis of the interface of the Government with its entire environment. Also, the strategic logic of each decision can be treated by reference to the strategic plan. For example, to address the needs of the elderly in foster homes, decision-makers must be knowledgeable about the environment of elderly living with their natural families.
Constant references are made to abject or relative poverty, and very little is said about latent poverty, poverty that lies in wait. It is not uncommon to find that many a family is reliant on the income of the elderly. In the event such breadwinners pass on the already overencumbered families are further burdened.
What we need in the Free State is information not only about the concentrations of poor people, but also about the effects of poverty. Understanding demographics becomes a condition for effectiveness and efficiency, efficiency being a precursor to effectiveness.
In conclusion, the reasoning that demonstrates the correctness of the use of demographic analysis in strategic planning for the Government seems applicable in the private sector as well, because a profile of the population is equally important in determining results. Somebody once wrote, and I quote:
A vision for change is a comprehensive strategic map for the revitalisation of distressed communities …
Stemming from this, we would like to find out whether affirmative action employment policies are compatible with the principles of substantive equality as directed by the Constitution.
I am sure by now hon members have noticed that I basically propagate three things on behalf of the province; firstly, permanent reliable and accurate data, in other words, living data, secondly, permanent and comprehensive research with regard to the effects of poverty and, implicit in all this, community ownership of the census process. The Free State supports the Bill. [Applause.]
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF FINANCE: Chairperson, I would like to thank hon members for what I think has been a lively debate. And I would like, perhaps before responding to some of the issues that have been raised in the debate, to capture some of the issues that we had wanted to convey to the House, but, for reasons of time, we chose to leave to the end.
In the context of the macroeconomic policy of Government, the drive for job creation and the delivery of social services, we have identified four broad strategies. Statistics SA has the responsibility to provide common statistical denominators at both geographic and thematic levels that operationalise, monitor and measure the outcomes and impact of the policies and strategies that Government prioritises.
We would like to outline some of these priorities and postulate how we intend relating to them as Statistics SA. One of these is the Integrated Sustainable Rural Development Strategy. The vision for rural development is to eliminate poverty and enable development by focusing on the provision of infrastructure and services in rural areas, and restoring economic rights to marginalised areas. Poverty and agricultural activity statistics are critical in ensuring policy formulation, implementation and monitoring.
Geographically referenced small-area statistics enable targeted interventions. The current challenge to both the national statistics system and Government is how well the national denominators are collated, how progress is monitored and how performance is measured. Intended incomes and impact are measured and understood.
Statistics SA, in conjunction with the Department of Provincial and Local Government and IDT, are conducting a bench-mark study in the 13 nodal areas that have been identified as pilots for the rural development strategy, and will be rolling out more studies to inform policy on the state of affairs and what needs attention in those areas.
The second area is that of urban renewal. We saw the hon the President launching an urban renewal programme in Alexandra about two weeks ago. Crime and poverty are to be tackled together in high-density urban areas. Continued unemployment and poverty provide a fertile environment for crime, which is to be tackled by an integrated justice strategy. Economic statistics, especially on labour market dynamics at lower levels of geography, coupled with small-area statistics on service delivery, provide critical information for local, provincial and national government programmes. The challenge to the statistics system is even more complex in this area, as the demand for small-area statistics becomes increasingly pressing and the direction of resource flows and benefits needs to be tracked.
The third area is that of public-sector transformation. Effective service delivery in the spirit of Batho Pele is the primary goal of Public Service transformation. Developing the statistics system and enhancing the quality of statistics not only provides delivery of better statistical services, but also allows Government departments to plan and monitor the inputs and outputs of their own service delivery. In addition, an emphasis on the development of Statistics SA’s human resource capacity provides for the sustainability of quality initiatives.
Let me turn to some of the policy issues that confront us, based on the October household surveys. Statistics SA has just completed a five-year comparative analysis of data, measuring the extent of development in South Africa. In the area of housing, the data suggests that although there is improvement in the type of housing people live in, there is a simultaneous increase in the number of informal or shack dwellings. For instance, the proportion of formal housing increased from 65% of all housing in 1995, to 69% in 1999. At the same time, the number of shacks increased from 7,5% to 12,3%. This constitutes a major challenge that the cluster looking at housing and associated services will have to tackle. The proportion of the population in urban areas exhibits two related patterns, which are predominant only amongst the black population group. One pattern is the level of urbanisation and the other is the trend towards urbanisation. Regarding the level of urbanisation - the proportion is at its peak in the 25 to 49 age range. The trend suggests that within this age group a disproportionately large number of people migrate to urban areas and move back to rural areas when they reach the age of 50. This pattern of movement has a higher peak for men compared to women, constituting 59% and 54% respectively. This suggests that the policy of apartheid still continues to have far-reaching implications on our society. A related policy question pertains to how this massive migration might affect capital formation, for example, in policies geared towards addressing home ownership.
Let me now deal with some of the issues that have been raised by hon
members. I think that it would be fair and accurate to say with regard to
the hon Dr Conroy’s statement that there may be a maxim that says: Lies,
damn lies and statistics'', but we think that we are moving towards one
that says:Truth, the whole truth and statistics’’. [Laughter.] This
really captures what the essence of the change in Statistics SA is all
about. Over the last five or six years we have seen substantial change in
that particular regard.
Further, I think the hon Makgatho should go and tell his premier that he may not have been counted personally, because they did not find him, since he was very busy. [Laughter.] However, they certainly went to his home and were told that he existed. [Laughter.] I think the point about the 1996 census results, with all of its imperfections - and we accept that it could not have been a perfect product - is that it is still the best set of information that we have in South Africa. I think the last real census in South Africa was conducted in 1970. Is that correct? After that the country fragmented into homelands and self-governing territories. So the last real all inclusive census was conducted in 1970. Thus, the 1996 census, with all its imperfections, still gives us the best set of information to date. Clearly, Census 2001 will take us further along the route of deepening and broadening the statistical base that we use in order to make choices and to make decisions.
Regarding the issue of the time gap between the collection of statistics and the publication thereof, yes, hon members are quite right. It is a big gap. In terms of the census that we are approaching now, it is actually expected that it is going to take us two years before we can publish the results. Perhaps it would help if hon members understood what happens during that period. There are various stages involved, and the first stage is one where one has to process all of the data that has been collected. That is a process that is done through the scanning of all the questionnaires, which I spoke about during my earlier intervention. This alone will take about eight months.
The second stage is one during which one compares the census data with something called the postenumeration survey, which is used to check the very census that has just been conducted. In a sense, it checks the quality of the data that has come out of the census itself, and that also takes about eight months.
The third stage is an adjustment stage during which one adjusts the results, comparing them with other data from other sources that one would have collected, and that takes about four months. So hon members can see that the census is quite an involved process. Of course, the fourth and final stage is that of writing the final report and its publication. However, the important thing is that in between censuses, important work which helps to capture changes that take place in demographics and economics gets done.
The surveys that are conducted in between population censuses give us information on those changes, and through them one can measure a whole range of issues. For example, changes in education and employment population demographics and infrastructure and facilities that people have access to over time. So, that is the instrument that we use in between censuses in order to make sure that while the information dates in terms of the result of the census, it does not completely date because one is able to conduct these kinds of surveys.
Regarding the issue of gross geographic information which that hon members spoke about, that is a matter that is currently receiving attention. Recently, a workshop was held that involved a range of stakeholders who actually began to look at how one can plan and map the way forward for this kind of information. I see that Mr Isaacs really loves the Western Cape. [Laughter.] [Interjections.] Would he love it if it were under ANC control? [Laughter.] Would he continue to love it the way he does? [Laughter.] [Interjections.]
Let me turn to the issue of the 1996 census results for the Western Cape. I know that the Western Cape was very unhappy about them, because they had budgetary implications. However, there are a few things that can be said about this. That hon member mentioned getting their own demographers and statisticians to do the work for them. But Statistics SA has met with the hon member’s demographer, Prof Sadie, for example, who attended a meeting which was attended by representatives from Statistics SA, in which the Western Cape situation was reflected upon.
From our understanding, on the basis of those discussions, Prof Sadie was in agreement with the people from Statistics SA on the work that was done in the Western Cape and the results that came out of that census. Regarding the budgetary process, the Western Cape is not the only province that is undergoing budgetary adjustments on the basis of the information that came out of the 1996 census. But what we did was to say that in order to avoid disruption in those provinces in which the population outcome was less than had been believed before we will face the impact of those results over a five-year period. But we did that also to ensure that in those provinces that would be receiving more resources, because they have more people, their absorptive capacity has to be built. We cannot simply throw more money at them. Instead, that process has to be phased in over a five-year period.
The other important issue is that the budget, as we apply it, is also a redistributive instrument, because, as hon members know, our provinces are not at the same level of development. Indeed, we do direct resources from the better-off provinces to the poorer ones, because we are building one country here.
Instability in terms of population migration patterns will always be a permanent feature if hon members cannot ensure that their provinces reach a fair level of development across the board. If that happens, hon members will have stability in terms of the movement of people from one area to another. But the other piece of information is that the population of the Western Cape between 1991 and 1996 grew from 3,4 to 3,9 million. So, I would like to tell Mr Isaacs that all is not gloom. One of the things that have puzzled commentators, observers and people who have read Statistics SA’s poverty report which was done last year is that the Free State featured quite prominently as a poor province.
We had previously believed that the poorest provinces were the Eastern Cape, KwaZulu-Natal and the Northern Province. But the Free State featured quite prominently in the poverty report. I think that without taking anything away from this fact, which is a reality that is on the ground in the Free State, what we must understand is that this poverty is in terms of expenditure. The measure of poverty cannot be limited only in terms of the expenditure, because there are other factors that have to be taken into account. For example, issues of social development, infrastructure and so on have to be looked into.
I think that what this could reflect is that some of the people that may be working on the farms in the Free State, are not paid in cash. They are paid in kind by being given portions of food, therefore they do not necessarily go and buy some of the things that they consume. But I think that that is an angle that we must understand, that this is a poverty measure which reflects it in terms of the capacity to spend, and it has to be understood that there is that possible angle that some of the people may be remunerated in ways other than cash.
I think that these are just some of the issues that we wanted to highlight and, I think, perhaps to round off this debate, one would want to say that we are pleased that Statistics SA is an organisation that has demonstrated beyond doubt that it is resilient and that it can adapt to change. In the past five years it has revitalised the statistics system and given sufficient prominence to social and demographic statistics and created a census database that emulates that of countries that are ahead of us.
It has re-engineered economic statistics and continues to address the limitations that exist across series, especially those relating to employment. In terms of regional obligations, we have taken the lead and SADC has assigned South Africa the task of being the focal point for the SADC 2000-01 round of censuses that is taking place. The organisation is well poised to execute Census 2001 and has led the way in encouraging participation at all levels of society.
The voice of the NCOP is called upon to support Census 2001 and Statistics SA. Although challenges are extensive, the vision is clear and direction has been defined, and there is substantial movement in that direction.
I would like to thank all the members who participated in the debate. [Applause.]
Debate concluded. The Council adjourned at 16:20. ____
ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS
ANNOUNCEMENTS:
National Assembly and National Council of Provinces:
- The Speaker and the Chairperson:
(1) Assent by the President of the Republic in respect of the
following Bill:
(i) National Council for Library and Information Services Bill
[B 44B - 2000] - Act No 6 of 2001 (assented to and signed by
President on 19 June 2001).
- The Speaker and the Chairperson:
(1) The Subcommittee of the Joint Programme Committee on 20 June
2000 took a decision, in accordance with Joint Rule 216(2):
That, in accordance with Joint Rule 216(2), the Criminal Procedure
Amendment Bill be fast-tracked.
That the Joint Programme Subcommittee -
(i) notes the urgent nature of the amending legislation
(Criminal Procedure Amendment Bill) proposed by the
Portfolio Committee on Justice and Constitutional
Development, as explained in the Memorandum in terms
of Rule 238 submitted by the Committee
(Announcements, Tablings and Committee Reports, p
695);
(ii) provided that the National Assembly gives permission
that the legislative proposal be proceeded with -
(a) approves that the draft Criminal Procedure Amendment
Bill be finalised in the shortest possible period by
the Committee, and that for that purpose, the
provisions of Assembly Rules 239(1)(c) and (3);
240(a) and (b); 241; 243(1)(b) and 253(1) be
suspended in order for both Houses to pass the
legislation before Parliament adjourns in June 2001.
In terms of Joint Rule 216(4) this decision must be tabled in both
Houses for ratification.
COMMITTEE REPORTS:
National Council of Provinces:
-
Report of the Select Committee on Labour and Public Enterprises on the Eskom Conversion Bill [B 16B - 2001] (National Assembly - sec 75), dated 20 June 2001:
The Select Committee on Labour and Public Enterprises, having considered the subject of the Eskom Conversion Bill [B 16B - 2001] (National Assembly - sec 75), referred to it, reports the Bill with proposed amendments, as follows:
CLAUSE 1
- On page 2, in line 14, after “agreement” to insert “to be”.
CLAUSE 5
-
On page 3, in line 12, to omit “The” and to substitute “the”.
-
On page 3, in line 16, to omit “No” and to substitute “no”.
-
On page 3, in line 18, to omit “The” and to substitute “the”.
CLAUSE 6
-
On page 3, in line 25, after “The” to insert “memorandum and the”.
-
On page 3, after line 27, to insert:
(4) The Minister must enter into a Shareholder compact with Eskom.
-
On page 3, in line 29, to omit “may” and to substitute “must”.
CLAUSE 8
- On page 4, in line 6, after “Act,” to insert “a majority of”.
CLAUSE 11
- On page 4, in line 40, to omit the first “register” and to substitute “Registrar”.
The Committee further recommends that paragraph 3 of the explanatory memorandum on the objects of the Bill be omitted.
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Report of the Select Committee on Security and Constitutional Affairs on the Supreme Court Decree, 1990 (Ciskei) Amendment Bill [B 15 - 2001] (National Assembly - sec 75), dated 20 June 2001:
The Select Committee on Security and Constitutional Affairs, having considered the subject of the Supreme Court Decree, 1990 (Ciskei) Amendment Bill [B 15 - 2001] (National Assembly - sec 75), referred to it, reports that it has agreed to the Bill.
-
Report of the Select Committee on Land and Environmental Affairs on Visits to Provinces, dated 4 April 2001:
The Select Committee on Land and Environmental Affairs, having visited
the Northern Cape, Free State, Eastern Cape, KwaZulu-Natal, Northern
Province and Mpumalanga, reports as follows:
A. Introduction
The Committee undertook the visits to deal with matters pertaining
to land claims and restitution. The objective was to find out
first-hand what people involved in the process of land claims and
restitution feel about the process. This will in turn help the
Committee to recommend what should be done to remedy the
situation. The decision to undertake the visits came as a result
of numerous calls from different communities affected by land
claims and restitution. The communities wanted the Committee to
see for themselves what progress has been made so far.
B. Northern Cape
1. Delegation
The delegation consisted of Mrs R A Ndzanga, Mr J Horne and Mr
T Thisani (Committee Secretary).
2. Meeting with MEC
Before the delegation visited communities, they had a meeting
with the MEC, Mr T Makweye. He outlined the progress made so
far with land claims and restitution, and frustrations shared
by communities affected by the process. He pointed out that a
parliamentary committee visited the province about two years
ago on the same issue, but nothing came from it and the
promises made were never fulfilled.
The MEC mentioned that of six major claims lodged with the
Land Claims Commission, three were still outstanding. The
major stumbling block was the lack of human resource capacity
in the land claims office in Kimberley. The office did not
have a researcher for quite some time, until one was appointed
recently. The MEC emphasised the need for the new provincial
land commissioner to visit the province on a regular basis, as
he has not done so since assuming office. The MEC hoped that
the proposal from the national Department of Agriculture and
Land Affairs that the system changes from one of legal
obligations to an administrative perspective would speed up
the process. The systems that will help to reroute the process
to that direction need be put in place.
3. Visit to Majeng
(1) Historical background
Majeng is a settlement of about 35 000 ha, with 2 000
households. The Commission's Advisory Commission on Land
Allocation (ACLA) inherited the Majeng claim in 1995. It
was one of the presidential leading projects earmarked to
be settled before other cases like Kono, Groenwater and
Skeifontein. Unfortunately the leadership of the
community was divided, thus delaying settlement.
(2) Process
Before the claim was resolved, one part of the leadership
decided to invade the land. This necessitated a mediation
process, led by Mr Mac Robert, to bring the current land-
owners and the community to a common understanding.
However, that initiative collapsed. The regional
commission tried several times to persuade the invaders
to vacate the land, to no avail. A second mediator, Mr
David Story, was solicited, but he could not persuade the
invaders to leave the land either.
Ultimately, in 1997, the matter was referred to the Land
Claims Court. The first pretrial conference was held on
17 May 1999, and the court directed mediation for
intracommunal disputes. Mr Chris Spies was appointed as
mediator, and as a result of his effort a joint committee
was formed. This joint committee held its first meeting
on 9 October 1999. Its responsibilities were the
following:
(a) To assist the Department and the Commission in
drawing up a list of claimants on the land.
(b) To determine the role of traditional authority.
(c) To review the work done by Neloma consultancies.
(d) To assist in establishing a legal entity.
(3) Findings
The Majeng community was frustrated by the delay. They
felt it was as a result of many departments handling the
same claim. The community itself was divided on how to
solve the problem. The court was handling their claim,
but insisted that the community had to unite in order to
put forward their case as one. To resolve the lack of
unity, the MEC and the community promised to meet every
month, and that it would be a matter of time before the
unity was resolved.
An NGO, Ancra, was helping the community with
facilitation of the claim. As a result of their advice,
the community joined forces and was hoping that the
process would move forward. The Commission was going to
appoint a facilitator to help verify the claimants.
There was also the issue of chieftainship that needed to
be resolved. The community needed to resolve which one of
the two chiefs was their true leader. The community
refused to accept both as leaders; to them only one chief
was acceptable. Once this issue was resolved, the role of
the chief in the land claim process would have to be
resolved. Whilst their claim was still under
consideration, the community cried out for provision of
basic needs, such as running water, a clinic, transport,
a school and sanitation.
4. Visit to Lohatlha Battle School
(1) Historical background
The area was about 49 000 ha in size, with 12 000
households. Until the 1970s the Gatlhose and Maremane
communities lived in the native reserves northwest of
Kuruman, some 40 km south of Kathu and 30 km north of
Postmasburg. The reserves were 49 000 ha and 12 000 ha,
respectively, and afforded the communities an adequate
pastoral existence. The communities lived in 24 villages
scattered across the reserves. The area was mountainous,
with many wells and boreholes. It had good agricultural
potential and mining resources, on which the communities
lived and survived.
During 1976 and 1977, communities were forcefully removed
to Lexey, Pepsi, Slough, Deurham and Bendel, 30km north
of Kuruman, on the edge of the Kalahari Desert. The
Gatlhose and Maremane native reserves were incorporated
into the SA Army Battle School in Lohatlha. The other
areas mentioned above, where the other communities were
relocated to, were dry and sandy areas with little
agricultural potential and far from mines (where many
comunity members were employed), towns and hospitals.
There was no infrastructure, water or work.
(2) Process
The community lodged a claim for restoration of the
native reserves with ACLA in 1991. The claim was deemed
to have been lodged with the Commission in terms of the
Restitution of Land Rights Act, 1994. The Department
conducted various investigations into this claim, and in
1995 it was accepted as a legitimate and valid claim. The
communities have since been engaged in negotiations with
the SANDF, the Department and the Commission in an effort
to resolve the claim. The matter was eventually referred
to the Land Claims Court, in April 1997. The court held
two pretrial conferences, on 16 September 1997 and on 22
January 1998, and it directed the Department to
investigate and identify whether alternative State-owned
land within the boundaries of the SA Army Battle School
at Lohatlha could feasibly be restored to the
communities, taking into account the agricultural
potential of the land and the issue of contamination of
land by unexploded ammunition debris. These
investigations were conducted by the Department, Mechem
consultants and a community investigation task team,
which reported their results to the court.
The community formed a Communal Property Association
(CPA) to hold and manage any land which may in future be
allocated to them. They tasked the Department and its
regional counterparts in May and June 1999 to identify
neighbouring farms, in consultation with claimants, as
alternative land. Since then the communities have not had
any formal response from the Department. The next
pretrial conference in the Land Claims Court was
scheduled for 28 October 1999. The claim was the entire
Lohatlha battlefield and not only the areas with low
contamination levels, as reflected in the Mechem report.
(3) Findings
The community residing within the Battle School (Khosis)
raised the following concerns:
(a) They are forced to sign in and out of the School
when they come in and go out.
(b) Permission should be sought from the SANDF for a
member of a family to visit relatives who reside in
the School. The community felt that this hindered
their freedom of movement, as enshrined in the
Constitution.
(c) There were no boundary markers separating the
community and the SANDF. As a result, when cattle
from the community strayed into the SANDF area,
anyone trying to retrieve them would be arrested or
the animals killed.
(d) Some family members got killed or maimed by
uncleared ammunition, and there was no compensation
from the SANDF.
(e) The members of the community were not allowed to
come in or go out when the SANDF was in training.
This caused unnecessary delay when pensioners needed
to go out to collect their money.
(f) The nearest water collection point and telephone
were about 40km away.
The community demanded the following:
- Retention of grazing rights in times of drought, if
the community was settled elsewhere.
- Members of the community should be allowed to visit
the burial sites of their fathers and mothers.
- An alternative gate must be opened to make the
distance to the nearest town shorter.
- A percentage of the income from the School should be
given to the community.
5. Groenwater and Skeifontein
(1) Historical background
Groenwater was about 2 900 ha in size, with 76
households, but that number was growing rapidly due to
people invading the site. The title deed for both
communities was handed over to the CPA. Skeifontein was a
settlement of about 3 200 ha, with 500 households.
(2) Findings
The area in which these communities were settled, was a
barren piece of land next to an abandoned asbestos mine.
There was no agricultural potential because of the
dryness of the area. The community raised, among others,
the following concerns:
(a) Lack of transport system - there are no proper
roads.
(b) Lack of health facilities - the nearest clinic is 48
km away; a mobile clinic comes only once a month;
pensioners have difficulty reaching the clinic.
(c) Housing is inadequate.
(d) No schools - the nearest school is 25 km away; the
community was promised a temporary school, but the
promise was never fulfilled.
(e) Crime - the nearest police station is 48 km away.
(f) The land was never developed after the community had
moved in.
(g) Lack of unity is hampering any envisaged
development.
6. Visit to Smitsdrif
(1) Historical background
In Smitsdrif there are 2 000 households on an area of
about 34 000 ha. The Smitsdrif claim is one of the claims
inherited by the Commission on Restitution of Land Rights
from ACLA in 1995.
(2) Process
The claim was one of the presidential lead projects in
1994. Batlaping community initially lodged the claim. The
Commission verified the claim and declared it valid.
Before the claim could be settled, the Griqua and
Fonteintjie communities lodged a counter-claim, so
verification of the claim had to be done. Negotiations
took place between Batlaping and Fonteintjie and resulted
in the two coming together to form the Communal Property
Association (CPA). An agreement on the resolution of
Griqua claims and compensation has been reached, with
Griqua parties accepting alternative land. The way should
now be clear for reaching final settlement.
(3) Findings
There was a critical need for a new planning process,
after the failure of Asch and Associates to complete the
task satisfactorily. There was some debate as to whether
Asch and Associates complied with the terms of the
contract, and about what to do with it. The provincial
land department needs to give clear guidance to the
Department on the next step. The community settled on the
SANDF base will be resettled at Platfontein. The
Platfontein plan has been submitted by the consultant to
the Department. It will be reviewed by the land reform co-
ordinating subcommittee at a special meeting. Some
services such as water and sanitation are essential if
resettlement is to take place. Resettlement of the !Xu
and Khwe is seen by many as a prerequisite to
resettlement of Smitsdrif.
7. Recommendations
Taking into consideration the information gathered during the
visit, the Committee recommends as follows:
(1) There should be a close working relationship between the
provincial commissioner and the community involved in
land restitution.
(2) More resources should be allocated to strengthen the
process.
(3) Vacancies should be filled, to have the personnel
resources necessary for the process.
8. Latest developments
The Minister of Agriculture, Ms Thoko Didiza, the Chief Land
Claims Commissioner, Adv W A Mgoqi, and the Regional Land
Claims Commissioner, Mr A A Roberts, signed an agreement
between the claimants and the SANDF on 8 April 2000.
A breakthrough was achieved on 5 February 1999, when the
different parties signed a framework agreement. The Bathlaping
(Tswanas) and the Kleinfontein community jointly formed the
Smitsdrif CPA. The United Griquas of Griqualand West split
into two groups, the Engelbrechts and the Hoogstanders, who,
after several meetings, agreed to work together to settle the
claim amicably. Another Griqua group, the House of Griquas,
has also subsequently lodged a claim in resepct of Smitsdrif.
On 14 January 2000, an agreement was signed by the House of
Griquas and the United Griquas of Griqualand West, stating co-
operation to settle the claim.
After more than five years of negotiations, an agreement was
reached with the SANDF, which encompassed the clearing of
dangerous objects, such as unexploded ammunition, and time-
frames for the departure of the SANDF from the 28 509,245 ha
of land, being restored to the Smitsdrif CPA. The breakthrough
was achieved when the SANDF indicated that they did not
require compensatory land for the land being restored to the
claimants. The agreement included restoration of land and the
community gaining access to the discretionary grants from the
Department of Agriculture and Land Affairs.
C. Free State
1. Visit to Thaba Patchoa
(1) Historical background
Direct descendants of the families who owned the land in
terms of title deeds lodged the claim. The original
owners had registered freehold rights and had used the
land for grazing, for subsistence farming and for
residential purposes. The claimants had the right to the
land in terms of section 2(1) of the Restitution of Land
Right Act, 1994. The claim came from about four families,
who were the owners, and about 62 families, who were
sharecroppers.
The Masisi, Mabokela, Khuzwayo and Tsimatsima families
occupied the land since 1905. They lost their rights to
the land after their farms were declared "black spots".
The logical option under such a proclamation was to
either sell the land to white farmers or risk the
property being expropriated. The farm Tshiamelo and
Segogoana's Valley were sold in 1974, while Sweethome was
sold in 1978.
(2) Process
Mr Kabelo Tsimatsima lodged the claim with the Eastern
Cape and Free State Land Claims Commission on behalf of
the Masisi, Tsimatsima, Mabokela and Khuzwayo families.
The claimants were direct descendants of these families,
who occupied an area known as Tshiamelo, Segogoana's
Valley and Sweethome (all being part of Thaba Patchoa).
The claim was lodged in accordance with the provisions of
section 11(1) and (2) of the Restitution of Land Rights
Act, 1994, and section 25(3) of the Constitution. The
claim was gazetted on 26 August 1996.
The Regional Land Claims Commissioner, on the basis of
prima facie evidence, pronounced the claim valid. The
claimants were interested in restoration of rights in
land on the farms. Although the families received
monetary compensation when they were dispossessed of
their farms, they argued that it was not adequate. Under
normal circumstances, their farms could have netted more,
had they been sold in the open market. The sharecroppers,
who also lost their rights to use the land, as per
arrangement with the original farm owner, were interested
in upgraded rights, in the form of alternative land.
(3) Findings
During the meeting with the claimants, led by Mr
Tsimatsima, the community raised the following concerns:
(a) The process has been delayed for too long.
(b) Some of the members of the community were against
the claim, which created unnecessary delays.
(c) There must be time-frames for negotiations.
(d) Plans that serve as guidelines for negotiations
between the Department and the claimants should be in
place.
The Department was committed to reaching an out-of-court
settlement with the claimants. Any position taken by the
Department was not binding until a formal agreement was
signed by duly mandated officials of all parties.
2. Visit to Bethany
(1) Background
The community of Bethany was removed from their land in
1965. After lengthy negotiations, an agreement between
the Lutheran Church, the Department and the claimant was
signed. The right of the community to the land was
restored. On 19 November 1998, the court endorsed the
restoration and ordered the establishment of the CPA. The
court also ordered that a title deed be issued to the
community within 90 days.
(2) Findings
During the meeting with the community representatives,
the following issues were raised:
(a) There has been no visible development since the
community was restored on the land.
(b) The court recommended to the Minister for
Agriculture and Land Affairs that Bethany be given
priority access to State resources allocated for land
development.
(c) The community was supposed to be issued with a title
deed within a period of 90 days, but a year has
lapsed without such title deed being issued. After
repeated enquiries, the community was told that the
processing of registration was the business of the
Lutheran Church and had nothing to do with the CPA.
(d) The community was left with no choice but to seek
help from the Public Protector, and they were still
awaiting a reply from him.
(e) The community believed that the Lutheran Church was
part of the land restitution process and therefore
accountable to all parties concerned.
(f) There was no pre-project funding from the Department
for the community.
(g) Staff handling the case in the provincial department
changed all the time, which resulted in a lack of
continuity.
(h) An independent monitoring agent should oversee the
case.
3. Latest development
The Bethany community was ultimately issued with their title
deeds during a ceremony held on 21 March 2000.
4. Visit to Moroka's Hoek/Groothoek
(1) Background
The claimants were the persons or their descendants who
were removed from the area. Sun International built a
casino and a hotel on the land, and they have a long-term
notarial lease agreement with a parastatal. The claim
comprised about 90 families from Groothoek and 30
families from Moroka's Hoek.
(2) Findings
The claimants were mainly interested in financial
compensation. The Department is committed in reaching an
out-of-court settlement that will be accepted to all
parties involved. A valuation has been commissioned to
determine the value of rights lost in monetary terms. The
community was happy with the way the claim was handled.
Their main concern was the delay in settling it.
5. Meeting with Herschel claimants
(1) Background
The claim concerned a property known as Palmietfontein No
16, made up of trust villages, namely Musong, Mahedi,
Storomo, Hohobeng and Makalakaleng. Palmietfontein No 16
was originally part of Ciskei. The claimant was the
community of Herschel, which had registered rights in the
form of "Permission to Occupy". They had lived on the
land for longer than 10 years prior to dispossession. The
claimants had residential and communal grazing rights on
the arable land.
In 1975 Herschel was excised from Ciskei and classified
as part of Transkei. The inhabitants were forced to move,
as they were not in support of the Transkei homeland
government. This position was seen as tantamount to
challenging the whole separate development policy, and
thus those who adopted this position were allegedly
victimised and subsequently removed. The claimants were
initially relocated to Zastron, Phuthaditshaba and later
Botshabelo's Section N.
The claimants indicated that no compensation was
received. The land they were promised by the QwaQwa
homeland government, was not meant for the removed
families as a form of compensation, but to augment the
land shortage in Phuthaditshaba. When the claimants were
relocated to Phuthaditshaba, they were allocated sites
like everybody else. They were expected to provide labour
for the erection of State-owned houses. For this, they
were not paid, as promised. The only form of assistance
received, was transport of their belongings by the
government to Botshabelo.
(2) Findings
The community of Herschel was exposed to harsh and
difficult conditions. The area they occupied, was dry,
with no agricultural potential. The state of their
makeshift houses was appalling. The houses were cold in
winter and hot in summer. The community told the
Committee that the Minister for Agriculture and Land
Affairs promised them that by the next winter their
condition would improve. Two winters have come and gone,
with nothing forthcoming. The community alleged that they
were forced by the local council to pay for water
services, which they did not receive. They had to walk a
long distance to get water.
6. Recommendations
The Committee is of the view that the recommendations put
forward for the Northern Cape visit should also apply in the
Free State's case.
D. Northern Province
The visit took place from 12 to 13 November 1999. The delegation
consisted of three members, Rev P Moatshe (Chairperson), Chief M L
Mokoena and Mr R M Nyakane.
1. Meeting at Agrivillage, Pietersburg
The delegation held a meeting at Agrivillage, Pietersburg,
with the following people: Dr A Motsoaledi, MEC for
Agriculture, Land and Environmental Affairs; Dr H Mateme,
Chairperson of the Land and Environmental Affairs Committee;
Ms R Semenya, committee member; Mr S Mhinga, Deputy Director
of the Department of Agriculture, Land and Environment; and Mr
T Makhubele, Public Relations Officer of the Department.
Dr Mateme gave a brief overview of the land claims problems in
the Province. She said the amalgamation of land from former
homeland governments and the new South African government was
also one of the problems.
Dr Motsoaledi said the fact that Mpumalanga and the Northern
Province were served by the same office of the Commission, was
also a problem. It was one of the causes of the delay in
settling land claims. The office had only one field worker for
both provinces, and was dealing with communities which did not
have basic telecommunication facilities like faxes and
telephones, thus the field worker had to drive around all the
time.
The delegation, together with the provincial officials,
proceeded to Mmaboi to meet with the communities.
2. Meeting with communities at Mmaboi
Dr Mateme introduced the guests, and Dr Motsoaledi made some
opening remarks before handing over Rev Moatshe, who addressed
the communities on behalf of the Committee. He said that the
Committee had agreed to embark on a country-wide, fact-finding
mission in respect of land claims.
Various communities attended the meeting, and their
representatives gave input, as follows:
(1) Mmaboi
Mr P Mojapelo said they had been evicted from their land
in 1926. In 1937 they started to discuss the problem as a
community. In 1975-76 Germans gave them money and
promised them a piece of land on which they could discuss
tribal issues.
In 1994 they were issued forms to complete, but as a
result of improper completion of those forms, they were
asked to complete them again.
At that stage several farms were available for purchase
(e.g. Makereng). The matter was reported to the
Department, who told them that it would be referred to
Pretoria, as the Department did not deal with land
claims. Since then, they have never heard anything.
In August 1997 the matter was again taken to Pietersburg,
where they were told that the matter was being handled by
Ms Gillfillan, the Commissioner. They demanded a copy of
the letter in order to speed up the process. It was
discovered that the farm had been sold to a certain Mr
Lotter, therefore the redistribution route which they had
followed, did not bear any fruit.
The process was too slow, and they found that the farm-
owner was willing to sell the property to anyone with
hard cash.
(2) Makotopong
Mr Sathege said that their farm name had been known as No
151 Roedevaal, which was subsequently changed to No 808
Roedevaal. They had lived there since 1870, and they were
ruled by Chief Abraham Phambane. Every individual
possessed a title deed for the plot he or she owned. They
stayed there with the Germans from whom they had bought
the farm. In 1960 the Germans told them that they were no
longer supposed to stay there. In 1966 one Gilford told
them that their land had been expropriated for use by the
SADF. During that period they lost their property and
livestock.
In 1996 the first claim was lodged in Pretoria, where
they were told to form a committee. They were offered a
piece of land with agricultural potential, but they said
that the land was not sufficient when compared with what
they used to own. They argued that they were not well
compensated by the government and that the government
still owed them mineral rights. The community wanted to
take the matter to the Supreme Court if it was not
reconsidered.
(3) Pheeha
This community was represented by Mr Herman Malatjie, and
they were claiming nine farms. They complained that the
government was delaying the process, and indicated that
if they could be given their land back, there would be
job opportunities in the area.
The Rietloop farm-owner did not allow them on his land,
and some of their livestock went missing on that farm.
They pleaded that both provinces should have separate
land commissions. They claimed the following farms:
Boshuishoek; Baskloof; Nooitgedacht; Dashoek; Rietloop;
Tierkloof; Koggelfontein; Bronkhorstfontein; Goudplaas.
(4) Popela
Mr Jan Maake talked on behalf of this community. They
used to live on Boomplaas, which has been consolidated
with the Goedgelegen farm. They started living on that
farm in the 18th century under Chief Pheehane Maake and
later Chief Popela. In 1900, during the war, the English
asked the Chief for a piece of land to stay on, and asked
some community members to help them by doing farm work
without pay.
In 1968 legislation stipulating that farm workers had to
be paid, was enacted.
In 1993 the Wesfalia Company took away their land and
started to impose restrictions on them. They were told to
get rid of their livestock and to stop ploughing. People
were forced to live in hostels.
In 1996 they started to lodge a land claim. They were
told to form a committee to speed up the process.
They were encountering problems with the TLC, and wished
to be helped as soon as possible.
(5) Mondi Scholtz
Mr Simon Makgoba represented this community. He said that
they were living there in 1965 with his grandfather, who
was an induna at the time. He started working for the
Scholtz company in 1993, when Scholtz wanted to have a
business partnership with Mondi, as he was afraid of the
coming democratic elections. In 1995 Mondi and Scholtz
retrenched workers with the aim of evicting them from the
farm. In 1998 Mondi told them that they had bought the
company from Scholtz and that by November the company
would be closing down. They were also told to remove
roofing and window-frames from their houses within two
months, to assist with the demolition process.
During demolition their dwellings and some of the graves
were destroyed, for which they were not compensated. Mr
Makgoba said this was done because the owners of the farm
wanted them to vote for the National Party.
They also complained that they had been forcefully
removed from Makgoeba, and they had already lodged a
claim in this regard. Initially they tried to take the
matter to the police and later approached the Nkuzi
Development Association for help.
They suggested that, since they had nowhere to go, the
RDP should have built houses for them.
(6) Dikgale
Mr Wund Dikgale talked on behalf of this community. They
started with land redistribution in 1997 and 1998, with
the help of the Nkuzi Development Association.
Northern Transvaal Motors was approached, and it was
determined that there were four farms available for
purchase (portion of Rietpoel). The Department told them
to form a group of 600 people, as each farm was expected
to have between 57 and 87 people.
In terms of issuing land, the focus was only on the
unemployed and people who earned less than R1 000 per
month.
They complained that the officials were not telling them
the truth about the new land laws. They said the farm-
owner told them that, by the year 2000, he would be
selling the farm.
(7) Nkuzi Development Association
Mr Lahiff made a presentation on behalf of this
association. It is an NGO active in the areas of land
reform and land rights in the Northern Province, and is
an affiliate of the National Land Committee. Over the
previous two years, it had assisted more that 400
Northern Province communities to lodge land restitution
claims, and had advised many others on how to lodge
claims directly with the Commission.
Mr Edward Lahiff explained that in the Northern Province
there were about 11 000 claims with the Commission, but
that only two had been dealt with. He said that the
process took too long, and made the following
recommendations:
(a) Short-term recommendations
The Commission should open offices in every province.
The Commission should meet with provincial
stakeholders, and later with district stakeholders,
to develop a strategy for resolving land claims in
each province.
The moratorium on redistribution projects should be
lifted, as no alternative is in place.
The current planning processes for redistribution
should be dropped in favour of genuine participatory
planning that addresses the real needs of
communities.
Police, magistrates and prosecutors should be
informed of the provisions of the Extension of
Security Tenure Act, and their performance should be
monitored by the Department.
The Department should intervene directly in cases of
threatened evictions or abuse of farm residents.
The Extension of Security Tenure Act should be
amended to allow for the burial of long-term
residents on farms and the protection of NGO and
union representatives.
(b) Long-term recommendations
Local planning involving all relevant stakeholders,
especially elected local councils, should be
initiated in order to co-ordinate and integrate all
aspects of land reform.
Provincial agriculture departments should work
together more closely with provincial offices of the
Department to plan and deliver agricultural support
to land reform beneficiaries.
The government should develop a clear vision for land
reform, with measurable performance targets, and
should act decisively when its objectives are not
being met.
The Department should publish its recommendations and
encourage public debate on tenure reform in the
former homelands.
The Department and the Commission should move towards
decentralising decision-making, at least at
provincial level, so that the Minister may no longer
be required to approve every project in person.
Emerging black commercial farmers should be provided
with preferential access to Land Bank loans and other
support services.
The law needs to be strengthened to provide secure,
permanent tenure rights to all long-term occupiers of
State, private and communal land.
The procedures for investigating and settling claims
need to be drastically reduced, and the Commission
should be given powers to settle claims without the
agreement of current owners.
5. Meeting with Commissioner in Venda
Present were Dr Motsoaledi; Dr Mateme; Ms R Semenya, member of
the Standing Committee on Land and Environmental Affairs; Rev
Moatshe; Chief Mokoena; Mr R M Nyakane; Mr S Mhinga, Deputy
Director of the Department; Mr T Makhubele, Public Relations
Officer of the Department of Agriculture, Land and
Environment; Ms D Gilfillan, Regional Commissioner of the
Commission; and Mr D Vorster, fieldworker for the Commission.
Ms Gilfillan made a presentation on the Commission's progress.
She started with a brief overview of the situation in her
office in March 1997, when she was without staff, except for
two members. Now she has about 34 staff members, of whom 18
are co-functionary staff (those who work on claims at field
level). The office has no permanent staff except for purely
administrative work. Most staff members are employed on a
three-year contract. Therefore the office has to readvertise
every three years.
The Northern Province has about 5 000 claims, most of which
are rural.
All these claims are based on informal rights (rights that are
not registered), and precedence is needed in this regard.
Although in respect of some claims actual ownership is
obviously feasible, the courts do need some form of material
evidence. Most of the evidence is oral and from the
communities, based on hearsay (for example, the claim in
respect of Kranspoort Community farm, west of Louis
Trichardt). This farm was bought by a certain Hofmeyer in
1879, and was donated to children, as black people were not
allowed as labour tenants. Missionaries stayed there. The
claim is opposed by the present owners of the farm. As far as
the Department is concerned, the claim was valid. It involved
about 600 families, and was referred to court. The church
contested everything and the hearing took two weeks. The
Commission was still awaiting the outcome. Officials who
attested documents were no longer around. Because of this type
of evidence, only a few claims will succeed in court.
Ms Gilfillan said that once the claim goes to court, the
Commission loses control over it and the lawyers take over.
She said there were also active claims which they were busy
with, and that they hoped to be finished at the end of March
2000. One of these was a claim for the Madimbo Corridor, State
land that used to be owned by the SADF. Some claims, about
1 004, have been validated in respect of the Northern Province
and Mpumalanga.
Only five claims have been finalised; 39 have been dismissed
on the grounds of falling outside the criteria of the
Restitution Act. These were claims in respect of which people
were compensated. According to this, claimants claimed the
land on which they were residing, but did not have rights to.
They were never removed from that land - all they wanted, was
the title deed.
Claims lodged in terms of tribal jurisdiction were also
dismissed on the grounds that they fell outside the criteria
of the Restitution Act and should be handled by the
Constitutional Court, as the Commission had no power over
them.
The communities whose claims were dismissed, were furnished
with full reasons for dismissal and were advised of the
options available.
The majority of the claims were delayed because they were in
respect of privately owned land. Some of the land was State
land, and the delay was caused by the fact that there were a
number of departments involved. For example, the Kruger
National Park in Mpumalanga involved the Departments of Public
Works, Land Affairs and Defence.
E. Eastern Cape
1. Introduction
The delegation undertook the study tour from 12 to 13 November
1999. The delegation comprised of Ms B Thompson (ANC), Ms B
Dlulane (ANC), Ms S Gqabaza (Committee Secretary) and Ms K
Pasiya (Committee Assistant).
2. Purpose of tour
The tour was a fact-finding mission in respect of land claims
and restitution.
The delegation arrived at Commissioner Tozi Ngwanya's office
and was welcomed by him and three members of the Provincial
Legislature: Mr R Nogumla, Mr A Metele and Mr M Makalima, as
well as Mr N Yankee, deputy director of the department.
3. Visit to Elliot Farms
At Elliot the delegation met with community leaders and Mr
Ndunge, one of the people affected during the forced removals.
Ms Thompson gave a short briefing about the purpose of the
visit, and on how the government can assist in respect of
their threats, difficulties, fears and expectations, so that
they can get their land back. The delegation wanted to know
whether the Commissioner's office was helping them.
The Commissioners' office explained that the Ndunge families
managed to get their land back through his office; the only
delay was the process of settlement. They have to plan grants
whereby service providers and micro-agents will have to assist
them by getting subsidies. They mentioned that there was a
commitment from the MEC's office of an agricultural planning
programme and after-care services.
The Commissioner's office also expressed frustration that the
policy did not substantiate about the land. They recommended
that the restitution law be amended because there was no room
for development. They mentioned that the MEC was faced with a
challenge in respect of those farms with a view to settlement
support and development division. A spokesperson from the
department, Mr Yankee, said that there was an agreement in
principle between the Department and the local housing board.
They mentioned that 28 miles away maize, mealies, cabbage and
potatoes were produced, and that there were still 55
households that had to get their land back.
The delegation recommended that different committees in the
province intervene to facilitate the process. They also
mentioned that the province has set a pattern on land
restitution for other provinces to follow. Mr Sokweba
expressed appreciation for the effort of the government and
for the progress made in Elliot.
4. Visit to Grahamstown: Eastern Cape Agricultural Research
Project (ECARP)
The delegation met with the director of ECARP and staff
members, as well as community leaders from Farmer Field, and
the Commissioner introduced the delegation. The director gave
an introductory briefing on ECARP, an organisation that
facilitates land and farm projects.
The chairperson of the Farm Field Trust, Mr Mbali Mzizi,
expressed the frustration about their expectations not being
met. He complained that people were promised from 1997-98 that
something would be built for them, but that up to that point
nothing had been done. He complained about a lack of
communication between them and the Commissioners' office. He
said they had been requesting reports from the office, with no
response.
The Commissioner responded by saying that they had had a
funding problem with regard to things like training people in
farming skills. He said the national government had to take
responsibility for the settlement of families and agricultural
cultivation, and that the Commission did not have resources to
fund these. He said they should work together on these issues,
as the Department, the Commissioners' office and the
community, and that the Restoration Act had to be amended.
The delegation appreciated the constructive criticism. They
suggested a follow-up with the Commissioners' office, and that
they would see to it that legislation was put in place to
speed up the process.
5. Recommendations
The delegation agreed to go back to Parliament and recommend
an amendment of the Restoration Act, so that the settlement of
families and the agricultural planning process could be
covered.
F. Mpumalanga
1. Introduction
In view of the fact that the Committee plays an important role
in ensuring that dispossessed communities are given back their
land through land reform, it resolved, at a meeting on 30
August 1999, to send a delegation to the Tenbosch and the
Doornkop communities in Mpumalanga. The purpose of the visit
was to see -
(1) progress made with regard to land claims in these
communities;
(2) problems experienced by the communities; and
(3) how Parliament can assist in speeding up the land claims
process.
The delegation, under the leadership of Mr M L Mokoena,
included Mr R M Nyakane. Mr Taabe was unable to join the
delegation, due to other commitments.
Mr D D Mabuza, the MEC for Housing and Land Administration,
accompanied the delegation. Departmental officials
accompanying the delegation were Mr J M Mndawe, from the
Office of the Premier; Ms G N Sibeko; Mr Edward; Mr G Fraser;
Mr B M Dry; Mr E M Khoza; Mr D P Mbiba; Bukhosi BakaMlambo,
chairperson of the House of Traditional Leaders; Mr A van der
Merwe, Head: National Housing and Administration Office; and
Mr M Mudau, Councillor: Office of the Director-General.
2. Visit to Tenbosch
(1) Overview of Tenbosch restitution claims
The Tenbosch land claims dated back to the 1950s, when
communities in the area known as Tenbosch were forcibly
removed to make way for the establishment of white
commercial farmers in the area. Tenbosch community has
about five traditional authorities, Mhlaba, Siboshwa,
Hoyi, Lugedlane, Shongwe, of which three (Hoyi, Siboshwa
and Lugedlane) have lodged claims with the Land Claims
Court. The farm Tenbosch, as it was known in 1953, was
nearly 30 000 ha in extent. The claimants were relocated
to inferior land in the Nkomazi area of the former
KaNgwane.
At this stage, the Commission has completed its initial
investigation of the land claim, and has concluded that
the claim was prima facie valid, in terms of section 11
of the Restitution of Land Rights Act, 1994. An
investigation was being conducted to identify members of
the claimant community - persons removed from Tenbosch or
their direct descendants. This involved a detailed
mapping project to record land use patterns on the farm
prior to dispossession, as that information was needed in
order to resolve the claim.
The claim involved unregistered rights in land, as the
claimants were not given title to the land. The formal
dispossession in 1951 was effected in terms of the Native
Trust and Land Act of 1936. The Commissioner's
investigations were to be broadened to include areas
surrounding Tenbosch.
(2) Land claimed
The land claimed, is Tenbosch 162JU, with about 10 000
people.
(3) Progress since visit
An information meeting was held between representatives
of the land-owners and representatives of the claimant
community, the Land Claims Court and the Department.
During that meeting the spirit of co-operation led to an
agreement that a solution be found to address the
injustice created by the removal of the community in the
1950s.
It was agreed that the Department would act as
facilitator and expedite the process so as to allow the
Commissioner to execute her duties. It was expected that
the process would take considerable time to reach
finality.
(4) Problems experienced, and findings
(a) According to the community, the land claims process
was very slow. Over the previous five years, the
Commission had ignored rural communities and had
focused more on urban areas.
(b) On 30 July 1999 it was published in the Gazette that
landowners should not sell or exchange their land.
Allegations were made that there were certain people
who continue to sell their land.
(c) The community complained that the last time the
Tenbosch Community had a meeting with the Committee,
was in December 1997. They urged the Committee to
visit the community more often.
(d) Some people did not have title deeds.
(e) White farmers wanted to sell land to the
communities, and the communities refuse to buy land
that they believed was theirs.
The chairperson of the Tenbosch Land Claims Community
informed the meeting that there was consensus between
the Commission and the community. They had agreed
that there was no need to fight for land, and that
negotiations between parties concerned should take
place to expedite the land claims process.
In November 1999, the Commission were to meet with
land-owners and claimants to negotiate on land
redistribution, land tenure and restitution.
(5) Recommendations
(a) The MEC should find a way of exerting pressure on
the land claims process.
(b) Farmers, land-owners and the landless should
negotiate and find consensus on issues they differ
on.
(c) The community recommended that the government should
interact more with them, to keep them abreast of the
processes.
3. Visit to Doornkop Community
(1) Overview of restitution claim
The Doornkop community's occupation of portion 12 of the
farm Doornkop 246 JS dated back to 1905, when their chief
and 283 others purchased the property from Mr J N R
Joubert. In 1968 the State expropriated the property from
the Doornkop community, and forced removals occurred in
1970. The community was compensated with land in
Bothashoek. The land was given to the SAPS to be used as
a training facility and for recreational purposes, by the
previous government.
(2) Land claimed
The Minister approved the return of the community in
1995, and the first people returned in December 1995. The
SAPS originally demanded compensation for this
improvement, and an agreement has not yet been reached.
The community claimed portion 12 of Doornkop, in the
Middelburg District. At present, there are about 246
claimants.
(3) Progress to date
The Doornkop Restitution Claim was a presidential lead
project.
(a) The Commission submitted the claim to the Minister.
(b) Negotiations were held with Public Works on the
transfer of land to the community property
association. The problem was that Public Works was of
the view that they needed a mandate from the Land
Claims Court to effect transfer. The matter was,
however, in the hands of the provincial director, who
had been mandated by the Land Claims Court to seek a
way forward.
(c) Terms of reference for detailed planning were
drafted.
(d) 75 out of the 246 people who submitted claims,
received their land back.
(4) Problems experienced
(a) In the community there is a lack of infrastructure
to accommodate all 300 people who live there. Since
1994 there has been no development in the community,
except for one school. The school did not have a
water supply, electricity, sanitation, furniture,
offices, etc. The community complained that the
government was not providing the necessary
infrastructure.
(b) Difficulty was experienced with beneficiary
identification and unravelling the issues pertaining
to those individuals who preferred compensation to
restitution.
(c) The influx of illegal squatters was another problem
experienced by the community. There were about five
illegal squatters, occupying land they did not own.
According to the community, the squatters claimed
that they owned the land, whilst they had "bought" it
through illegal means. The issue was referred to the
MEC. The community suggested that the Department
address the matter before there was bloodshed. The
community notified the squatters to move out, but
they refused to leave.
(d) Government officials were accused of being corrupt
and misusing funds for their own personal benefit.
The community urged the provincial department to address
the following:
(i) Registration of land (land is not registered.
(ii) Title deeds - they were taken by the former
government, and people do not have title deeds to
the land they own.
(iii) Boundaries - there were no boundaries to
separate land. The community did not have an idea
as to how big their land was. A map needed to be
drawn.
(iv) Infrastructure - the government were to provide the
community with water supply, clinics, roads,
transport, sanitation, electricity, etc. There were
taxi associations interested in operating in
Doornkop, and the community was scared that that
would result in taxi violence. They preferred to
have buses operating in the area.
(v) The community was informed that R2 million was set
aside for developing Doornkop, and yet, apart from
the school that was built, nothing had been done.
(vi) The processing of land claims was slow. The
community urged officials to speed up the process.
(vii) Registration of portion 12 had to be done
immediately.
(viii)More land had to be identified and purchased by the
government to accommodate the landless.
(5) Findings
(a) Counter-land claims were lodged by those who owned
land privately.
(b) The community was not aware of land claims in
dispute and of land claims that were processed.
(c) The community was not aware of the procedures and
processes that had to be followed before land claims
could be processed.
(d) There were people who sold land illegally - land
they did not own.
(e) Squatters were assisted by being informed of the
right procedures to follow in order to access land.
(f) The community blamed the provincial government, when
in fact the problem lied with local government.
(g) The community was becoming impatient, and blamed the
Commission for delaying the process.
(6) Recommendations
(a) An agreement has to be reached by those who were in
dispute for land. Land-owners and those without land
need to reach agreement.
(b) People have to be informed of the procedures and
processes to be followed to ensure that land is given
to the rightful owners.
(c) The government should deal with those who sell land
illegally.
(d) The R2 million allocated to developing Doornkop
should be used to develop infrastructure much needed
in Doornkop.
(e) The community should appeal to different ministries
to address their grievances, as different ministries
have to assist in building infrastructure. For
example, with regard to water supply, they should
consult the Ministry of Water Affairs and Forestry.
With regard to transport (buses) and roads, they
should consult the ministries of Transport and of
Public Works.
(7) Progress since visit
An agreement was reached with the Land Claims Court for
the Department to pursue the issue of land transfer on
behalf of the Commission.
Since the last time the Committee had visited Doornkop,
the influx of illegal occupiers increased, and the
situation has become extremely volatile. The number of
squatters has doubled.
4. Conclusion
The provincial Department of Housing and Land Administration has much to do for its communities in respect of land claims.