FRIDAY, 9 NOVEMBER 2001 __

          PROCEEDINGS OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
                                ____

The Council met at 09:37.

The Chairperson took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayers or meditation.

ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS - see col 000.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: I thought for a moment, Mr Durr, that you were joining everyone else in crossing the floor. [Laughter.]

Does any member wish to move a motion without notice?

Mr C ACKERMANN: It is Friday.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Mr Ackermann wishes to move a motion that today is Friday. [Laughter.] [Interjections.] Is there any objection to that motion? [Laughter.]

                 PLIGHT OF CIVILIANS IN AFGHANISTAN

                         (Draft Resolution)

Mr V V Z WINDVOÉL: Chairperson, I would like to move without notice:

That the Council -

(1) notes the plight of civilians in Afghanistan and the inadequate response thereto by the international community;

(2) further notes reported incidents in which innocent citizens have become war casualties in Afghanistan;

(3) believes that any further onslaught on terrorism should be measured and not incur any loss of innocent lives; and

(4) therefore calls upon the international community to be circumspect in its fight against terrorism.

Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.

                 GOOD WISHES FOR DIWALI AND RAMADAAN

                         (Draft Resolution)

Mr N M RAJU: Chairperson, I move without notice:

That the Council -

(1) wishes all Hindu South Africans a happy Diwali and a joyful celebration of the festival of lights; and

(2) wishes all Muslim South Africans well during the fasting month of Ramadaan.

Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.

               IMPOSITION OF LIFE SENTENCES FOR MURDER
                         (Draft Resolution)

Mr B J MKHALIPHI: Chairperson, I hereby move without notice:

That the Council -

(1) notes and appreciates that yesterday Judge Griesel sentenced Messrs Jones and Albertyn to life imprisonment after finding them guilty of murdering Younis and Fazlin Hassen at their home in October last year;

(2) further notes that this is another indication within a week that the Government is serious about addressing violent crime and urban terror; and

(3) congratulates the National Director of Public Prosecutions for the relentless work done in bringing all perpetrators to book.

Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.

             OCCUPATION OF OPPENHEIMER LAND IN ZIMBABWE

                         (Draft Resolution)

Mr K D S DURR: Chairperson, I move without notice:

That the Council -

(1) notes that it is reported that three properties of approximately 35 000 hectares belonging to the South African Oppenheimer family have been claimed by the Zimbabwean government and occupied by illegals, with threats to claim further large tracts of farmland from the family; and

(2) requests the South African Government to intervene and to act speedily and effectively to protect the interests and property of South African citizens and companies in Zimbabwe, including the Oppenheimer family, from the actions of the state.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Is there any objection to that motion? There is an objection. The motion will therefore become notice of a motion. AGRICULTURAL DEBT MANAGEMENT BILL

            (Consideration of Bill and of Report thereon)

Rev P MOATSHE: Hon Chairperson, hon Deputy Minister for Agriculture and Land Affairs and hon members of this House, according to the employment trends in agriculture published by Statistics SA, the level of farming debt outstanding rose significantly during the period 1988-1996 from R10,5 billion in 1988 to R18,5 billion in 1996.

Although commercial banks were the largest creditors of the commercial farming sector, the Government’s outstanding debt accounted for R435 million. Much of this outstanding debt was made available through the Agricultural Credit Board constituted in terms of the Agricultural Credit Act of 1966, which has historically served a political and economic function by providing financial assistance for white commercial farmers only.

The credit delivery function of the Agricultural Credit Board was subsequently taken away, pursuant to a recommendation by the Strauss Commission into the Provision of Rural Financial Services through the Land Bank Amendment Act of 1998.

However, the Agricultural Credit Act was and still is financial assistance- based and not aligned with the Constitution and the Public Management Finance Act. The need was therefore felt for new legislation which would be aligned with the Constitution and the Public Management Finance Act, would establish a new debt recovery framework and would allow for the utilisation of funds in the Agricultural Debt Account for agricultural development programmes through the budgetary process of Parliament.

What is the Agricultural Debt Account, and how will the money in it be utilised? The Agricultural Credit Account, in terms of section 20(a) of the Agricultural Credit Act, continues to exist under a new name. The Agricultural Debt Account consists of moneys received as repayment for debts.

This account will cease to exist only when all outstanding debts have been collected or written off, and the moneys have been appropriated by Parliament for agricultural development programmes.

Funds can be utilised for agricultural development programmes only in terms of business plans approved by the Minister for Agriculture and Land Affairs. The director-general may request the transfer of money in the account to the national revenue fund in order to finance the approved business plans. However, the Minister for Agriculture and Land Affairs, in consultation with the Minister of Finance, must approve such transfers. Parliament would then appropriate such money on the vote of the Department of Agriculture and Land Affairs for the specific financial year.

In summary, the proposed Agricultural Debt Management Bill thus provides for the continuation and administration of the Agricultural Credit Account, although under a new name. The Bill further provides for the use of the account as a mechanism for managing agricultural debt payments, the administration of moneys in the account and the utilisation of funds in the account to finance future agricultural development.

Motswana a re molato ga o bole, molato o jelwa mpeng [The Batswana have a saying to the effect that a debt is never forgotten]. Debate concluded.

Bill agreed to in accordance with section 75 of the Constitution.

                 LAND AFFAIRS GENERAL AMENDMENT BILL

            (Consideration of Bill and of Report thereon)

Rev M CHABAKU: Madam Chairperson, the amendments contained in this Bill are of a technical nature and, therefore, seek to streamline current legislation in this area.

I understand that the department consulted widely on this Bill, especially with regard to concerns that legislation passed by this Parliament was not accomplishing what it set out to do.

This Bill seeks to streamline the two pertinent pieces of legislation affected, namely the Land Reform (Labour Tenants) Act and the Extension of Security of Tenure Act. At the same time, the department is also looking at examining the implementation of the legislation already passed, and is looking into correcting some of the hiccups that occurred during implementation. We will be monitoring the process very closely for any further problems.

The proposed amendments to the Land Reform (Labour Tenants) Act of 1996 cover the loopholes in the principal Act, where a tenant'' was described butassociates’’ ignored.

The omission resulted in a number of difficulties, especially where family members were not allowed to even apply for their rights. Associates would therefore now consist of family members of a tenant and others nominated.

Another significant amendment to section 9 of the Land Reform (Labour Tenants) Act involves the age at which a labour tenant who refuses or fails to provide labour to an owner or lessee can be evicted. There was inconsistency in the legislation, with the Land Reform (Labour Tenants) Act putting the limit at 66 years, and the the Extension of Security of Tenure Act putting the age limit at 60.

So the Bill will amend the Land Reform (Labour Tenants) Act to make the age limit only 60 years instead of 65. A person over 60 years of age cannot be evicted if the person can no longer perform work. The most important amendment is to section 15 of the Land Reform (Labour Tenants) Act, which involves owners seeking to evict tenants. The amendment makes provision to protect evictees in cases where eviction orders were turned down by the courts. The amendment therefore ensures that proper arrangements are to be made to reinstate those evicted.

The Extension of Security of Tenure Act of 1997 will be amended to ensure that owners who routinely gave permission to bury do not use the omission of that right from the Act to take that right away from their tenants. The definition of ``established practice’’ in the Bill will make the practice of burials in its current form legally binding.

This Bill allows tenants to bury deceased family members who were living with them at the time of death and also allows family members of an occupier according to section 8(4) - a long-term occupant, a disabled occupant or someone over the age of 60 - to bury the occupier on the land on which he or she was residing at the time of death, subject to any reasonable conditions which are not more complex and difficult than those prescribed and that may be imposed by the owner or person in charge.

I believe that the department, with this Bill, will help to reconcile the ongoing difficulties experienced between the landowner and the tenant. The committee therefore endorses this Bill. [Applause.]

Debate concluded.

Bill, subject to proposed amendments, agreed to in accordance with section 75 of the Constitution.

                      LOTTERIES AMENDMENT BILL

            (Consideration of Bill and of Report thereon)

Order disposed of without debate.

Bill agreed to in accordance with section 75 of the Constitution.

               RSA/EGYPT POLICE CO-OPERATION AGREEMENT

                            (Discussion)

Mr T B TAABE: Chairperson, I rise this morning to make a statement on the agreement between the Government of the Republic of South Africa and the government of the Arab Republic of Egypt in respect of police co-operation. The agreement was signed on 20 July 2000, during the fourth session of the bilateral commission between South Africa and Egypt held in Pretoria.

In essence this agreement provides for co-operation in the prevention and investigation of crime between the SA Police Service and the Egyptian Ministry of the Interior. It furthermore provides for the exchange of expertise and information as well as co-operation in personnel management and training. That is basically the essence of this agreement between South Africa and Egypt.

I think I must also make two points in respect of this agreement. Whilst we, as a country, have appreciation for the transformation that has taken place within our Police Service, we must equally acknowledge that a number of problems still exist which impact on the ability of Government to provide South Africans with a safe and secure environment.

One of these problems, obviously, is the low level of trust between the police and communities in our country. This lack of trust is basically the result of the historical role the police played in suppressing mass opposition to the apartheid system in this country. Such information is well documented. This lack of trust manifests itself mostly in the unwillingness of communities to co-operate with the police in combating crime.

We must also mention that winning the trust of communities is the most effective weapon in the fight against crime, and it is in this regard that our police can learn from foreign police services that have established close co-operation and trust with the communities they serve.

I think the agreement would assist South Africa in the field of criminal investigations because we have so much to gain from countries such as Egypt. We also know that criminal investigation was a relatively new concept in our Police Service before and immediately after 1994. And precisely because of this kind of agreement, I think we will be able to draw, as a country, extremely important lessons which would then strengthen the Government’s hand in the fight against crime. I think this agreement will definitely benefit our Police Service and will further cement the kind of ties that exist between a democratic South Africa and Egypt. I think it is absolutely desirable, therefore, that the entire House supports this agreement [Applause.]

Debate concluded.

              RSA/NIGERIA POLICE CO-OPERATION AGREEMENT

                            (Discussion)

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: I see, Kgoshi Mokoena, that you have been teaching Mrs Versfeld some Setswana! [Laughter.]

Kgoshi M L MOKOENA: Chairperson, this agreement, in respect of police co- operation, desires to improve the effectiveness of the SA Police Service, as well as the Nigerian police, in the investigation, prosecution and suppression of crime. This agreement was signed on 14 March this year, during the third session of the South Africa-Nigeria binational commission held in Abuja in Nigeria.

In essence, the agreement lays a foundation for joint operation by both the South African police and the police of the federal Republic of Nigeria.

The agreement also provides for the exchange of expertise and information, as well as co-operation in personnel management and training. This agreement does not require ratification or accession. It is an agreement in terms of section 231(3) of the Constitution of South Africa, which requires that the agreement be tabled in the National Assembly and the National Council of Provinces.

The areas of co-operation between the two countries will include the exchange of crime-related information on a regular basis, the controlled delivery of illegal substances or any other objects, and technical assistance and expertise where this is required; and the provisions of this agreement shall not apply to any offence or investigation of a political nature.

This agreement will enhance the exchange of expertise and information, as well as co-operation in personnel management and training. It will also promote ties that already exist between the Federal Republic of Nigeria and the Republic of South Africa.

The agreement also requires that between the two of them, the police services of both South Africa and Nigeria shall, if so requested in writing by the police service of another country, render all reasonable advice, support or assistance relating to the training of their officials, the improvement or development of their organisation or administration or the promotion of their expertise with regard to the performance of the policing function to enhance co-operation between the two countries.

On behalf of my country, I table this agreement for adoption. [Applause.]

Debate concluded.

            SEXUAL VIOLENCE AGAINST AND ABUSE OF CHILDREN

                      (Subject for Discussion)

Mnr A E VAN NIEKERK: Mevrou die Voorsitter, ek het hierdie debat aangevra omdat ek van die Noord-Kaap kom en omdat Louisvale in my politieke verantwoordelikheidsgebied is; omdat die Benede-Oranjerivier die streek is wat beskou word as die mekka van verkragting, waar daar per 100 000 mense meer verkragtings plaasvind as in enige ander plek in die land en in die wêreld.

Dit is ook hier waar daar ‘n bietjie meer as ‘n week gelede ‘n negejarige kind verkrag is deur ses mans. [Tussenwerpsels.] Dit is vir my baie sleg om hieroor te praat, want as ek hieroor praat, kan ek nie anders nie as om ook te praat as ‘n pa, ‘n pa wat drie pragtige dogters het. Wanneer ek hieroor praat, kan ek ook nie anders nie as om hulle onskuldige ogies te sien toe hulle ook nege jaar oud was.

AGB LEDE: Nege maande!

Mnr A E VAN NIEKERK: Verskoning, toe hulle nege máánde oud was.

Ek wil hê elke agb lid moet ook net dink aan sy of haar eie kinders of kleinkinders toe hulle daardie ouderdom was. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)

[Mr A E VAN NIEKERK: Madam Chair, I have requested this debate because I come from the Northern Cape and because Louisvale falls within my political jurisdiction; because the Lower Orange River is the region that is regarded as the Mecca of rape, where more rapes occur per 100 000 people than in any other place in this country and in the world.

It is also here that a nine-year-old child was raped by six men a little more than a week ago. [Interjections.] It is very bad for me to talk about this, because when I talk about this, I cannot but also speak as a father, a father who has three beautiful daughters. When I talk about this, I also cannot help seeing their innocent eyes when they too were nine years old.

HON MEMBERS: Nine months!

Mr A E VAN NIEKERK: I beg your pardon, when they were nine months old.

I would like every hon member to think of his or her own children or grandchildren when they were that age.]

Can the House imagine six adult men penetrating that innocent nine-month- old baby’s body? I just cannot imagine it. The shocking aspect is that this is not an exceptional case. During the same week a three-year-old girl and her mother were admitted to the Kimberley Hospital, both sexually abused.

In two incidents in the Free State a one-year-old boy from Meloding was sexually abused.

Op Tweeling is twee mans van 34 jaar en 37 jaar oud in hegtenis geneem nadat daar bloed aan die boudjies van ‘n 14 maande oue dogtertjie gevind is. Daar is duisende sulke kinders wat nie die koerante haal nie. Verlede jaar is meer as 65 000 sake by die Polisie se kinderbeskermingseenheid aangemeld. Slegs 25 000 het die hof gehaal en slegs 7 000 is gevonnis.

Dit is onaanvaarbaar. Daar is talle kinders wat gevonnis word, en nie die kriminele nie. Kinders word hierdeur fisiek, emosioneel en met geestelike letsels gevonnis, en baie van hulle kry ook die doodvonnis in die vorm van HIV/vigs.

In 85% van die gevalle is die oortreders bekend aan die kind; 45% van die oortreders is die biologiese ouers en 8% is stiefouers. ‘n Mens kan baie maklik vra of daar dan mense in ons gemeenskap is wat soos diere geword het. Ek is bevrees dit is nog erger, want diere gaan net oor tot die seksdaad as die vroulike dier op hitte is. Hierso maak dit nie eens saak nie. Dit is abnormaal en onaanvaarbaar en dit mag nie langer geduld word nie. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)

[In Tweeling two men aged 34 years and 37 years were arrested after blood was found on the buttocks of a 14-month-old girl. There are thousands of children like this who do not make the newspapers. Last year more than 65 000 cases were reported to the Police child protection unit. Only 25 000 cases managed to reach court and only 7 000 perpetrators were sentenced.

This is unacceptable. There are many children who are being sentenced, and not the criminals. Through this children are being sentenced physically, emotionally and to mental scars, and many of them also receive the death sentence in the form of HIV/Aids.

In 85% of the cases the perpetrators are known to the child; 45% of the perpetrators are the biological parents and 8% are step-parents. One can easily ask whether there are people in our community that have become like animals. I am afraid it is even worse than that, because animals only commit the sexual act when the female animal is in heat. Here it does not even matter. This is abnormal and unacceptable and it may no longer be tolerated.]

The National Council on Child Abuse and Family Violence says that child abuse includes four major categories, ie physical, sexual and emotional abuse, and neglect. What are we talking about when we talk about sexual abuse, and what is the impact on the child?

Sexual abuse can be physical, including genital or oral stimulation, fondling and intercourse; nonphysical, including indecent exposure, obscene phone calls or peeping toms; and/or violent, as in rape or other forms of violent sexual behaviour.

Incidents of child sexual abuse are damaging whether they occur only once, are repeated many times or last over a number of years. A single seemingly minor incident may cause temporary emotional disturbances like embarrassment, fear, confusion, guilt, anxiety and a distrust of adults or strangers.

Those who sexually victimise children often suffer from an emotional or psychological dysfunction, usually as a result of their own previous sexual victimisation. This becomes a vicious circle. The majority of child molesters are men who abuse both boys and girls. Women make up a small percentage of those who sexually abuse children.

South Africa is committed by its Constitution and international agreements it has ratified to protecting its children from abuse, but current practice and Government budget do not reflect this commitment. That was said by the South African Human Rights Commission when they heard evidence in October this year during an inquiry in Gauteng.

During that inquiry, it was further stated that the legal system, the Department of Justice and Constitutional Development, medical professionals and the Police were failing to deliver basic human rights to sexually abused children.

Most state prosecutors and magistrates were not sensitive to children’s psychological states and this affected the outcome of cases, the social workers said. The court process very often adds to the child’s trauma.

Cases were frequently postponed repeatedly and lasted on average two to three years. Medical professionals were failing sexually abused children in that they were reluctant to report seeing evidence of abuse on child patients as they, by and large, wanted to avoid becoming involved as witnesses in court cases.

The social workers’ submissions unanimously recommended that specialised sexual offences courts be set up and run by legal personnel with specialised training in this field.

Another glaring shortcoming was that there was only one black forensic social worker in the police and the language barrier prevented the other seven from being involved in the cases of abuse involving black children, as too much information is lost in translation.

In the province or town where I come from, we have a group of women who organised themselves and formed a civil organisation, an NGO, called Women against Rape.

Hulle het besluit dit sal nie verder gaan nie. Wanneer iemand verkrag word, gaan hulle na die huis toe, haal die verkragter uit, bring hom na die polisie en betoog by die hof dat geen borgtog toegestaan word nie.

Dit is tyd dat ons as gemeenskap ook bymekaar moet kom en iets moet doen. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)

[They decided that it would go no further. When someone is raped, they go to the house, collect the rapist, bring him to the police and protest at court that no bail be granted.

It is time that we, as a community, also came together and did something.]

When he launched the Nelson Mandela Children’s Fund in 1995, our former President said:

There can be no keener revelation of a society’s soul than the way in which it treats its children. As we set about building a new South Africa, one of our highest priorities must therefore be our children. The vision of a new society that guides us should already be manifest in the steps we take to address the wrong done to our youth and to prepare for their future. Our actions and policies, and the institutions we create, should be eloquent with care, respect and love.

And now, six years later, we have the challenge and the obligation to stop this most violent, barbaric and heartless national crisis that we face. We must put the words of Madiba into action, and we must do it now. If we do not, then we are not worth being here representing those little ones whom God entrusted to us. [Applause.]

Kgoshi M L MOKOENA: Chairperson, the recent brutal rape of a nine-month-old baby in the Northern Cape has again pushed the problem of sexual violence against and abuse of children to the top of our national agenda.

The brutality of this act on a defenceless baby by grown-up men had many people in tears, because of the pain and suffering this little child must have endured. The perpetrators of such an act represent everything that is not civilised. They do not qualify to be called human, yet they are human and they are part of our society. They are the fathers, brothers, uncles and grandfathers of young children.

In an area called Kildare a school principal called a 13-year-old to his office. When this girl entered the principal’s office, he asked the poor girl to take off her clothes. When the girl refused, he pinned her down, and the rest is history.

In an area called Vuwani a 50-year-old man sexually abused his daughter. When he was confronted, he said he did that because he had been drunk.

In an area called Sekgakgapeng a 46-year-old pastor who claimed he could assist people possessed by demons took a 14-year-old girl to the mountains. The aim of taking her there was to pray for her in order to enable her to sleep. But instead of praying for her, the unthinkable happened.

At Mashishimale village a 70-year-old man asked a 12-year-old girl to assist him in cleaning his bedroom. Before the girl could even start cleaning, the old man went inside the room and locked the door. He told the girl that he wanted to teach her something very special which the girl had been missing for a very long time. When the girl resisted, this old man forced himself on her. Do not ask me what happened, because it is obvious.

In Khutsong, near Carletonville, a 32-year-old man raped a six-year-old girl. The girl had just been dropped at her parents’ gate from a preschool, and the man called her to come and get some sweets. Instead of sweets, the unbearable happened. In the same area in Carletonville, an 11-year-old girl was raped by her mother’s boyfriend over a period of five days in October. When the girl reported this to the mother, the mother chased the girl away. What a shame!

Society is sick, and something must be done. These rapists are the ones whom children look up to for trust, comfort and protection, yet they are the ones who betray this trust, and they are the ones who cause our children discomfort, pain and suffering. These little kids are no longer free even to walk in their own family home. The question we need to ask ourselves is: How can we ensure that our children grow up in an environment that is safe, free from the threat of sexual violence and abuse, and free from sexual deviance such as that which was committed by monsters who raped a defenceless baby?

Unfortunately, there is no single correct answer to these questions. The answer lies in the adoption of a multifaceted approach that includes the intensification of the education campaign around sexual violence and the abuse of children, the eradication of poverty and alcohol abuse, the social upliftment of communities, and the introduction of legislation which protects children. More importantly, this problem requires the restoration of the moral fibre of our society.

Fighting sexual violence against and the abuse of children is everyone’s responsibility. Moreover, it is the responsibility of men because by and large men are the main perpetrators of this kind of abuse. It needs conscious efforts from all sectors of society - Government, NGOs, religious and civic organisations, traditional leaders and healers and all of us. Most importantly, it needs the perpetrators themselves to acknowledge that there is something wrong with them and that they need help to correct their deviant behaviour. If it comes to a push, something will happen.

At the level of Government, a lot has already been done in terms of legislation to protect our children. In fact, many of the laws that have been passed since 1994 were designed to protect and empower the most vulnerable sectors of our society, namely children, women and the disabled.

In terms of its national crime prevention strategy, Government has identified sexual violence against and abuse of children as one of the main priorities. Therefore, it is not as if Government has not done anything. It has made a number of changes to our Criminal Procedure Act and the Criminal Law Amendment Act. These changes have been aimed, specifically, at the refusal of bail and an imposition of minimum sentences for +sexual crimes committed against children. On a number of occasions these laws have been used to prevent the release on bail of child rapists. A significant number of such perpetrators have been sentenced to life imprisonment.

We would like to congratulate those judges and magistrates who imposed high sentences and showed no mercy to these monsters. In terms of the treatment of child victims of sexual violence and abuse, approximately 20 specialised courts have been established which dedicate their efforts, exclusively, to matters of rape and other sexual offences.

I would like to call upon all people who respect themselves to assist the Government in fighting this carnage. Gone are the days when, if a little girl met a man, she would run to him with a smile for protection or comfort. These days when a little girl meets a man she will change her direction or look for the nearest hide-out. This must be condemned. [Applause.]

Ms C-S BOTHA: Chairperson, the future evaluation of human society will always be measured by its treatment of the vulnerable, the unprotected, children, powerless groups, the aged and women of every description, and by its religions and ethics. The present will be judged by its policy decisions and its expenditure priorities, despite its professed religions or legislated ethics.

Fundamentally, all human beings are capable of everything. The Germans who killed millions are our blood relations, partners in trade and our conceptual model for this House. The child soldiers of Sierra Leone are our blood relations. The Hutus and the Tutsis are each other’s nearest neighbours. During the worst periods of cruelty, we will still be producing magical art, wonderful music and soul-searching poetry. We are also part of that as creators or as audience. As little as we can separate ourselves from the perpetrators or victims of such heinous deeds as the rape of children, it is our response that will define us.

Evil does not ever disappear. It lies in wait, but it can be controlled and punished. However, that requires eternal vigilance and expeditious action. And if we, who are sitting here, or any of us outside do not take the personal challenge, we will be written into history as much as the accused who are now facing judgment in Upington.

Kom ons skets die scenario uit ‘n ander hoek. Vra uself af wat sou gebeur het as ons ‘n boksgeveg gereël het, of selfs net daar verby geloop het, of miskien die saal verhuur het, of die drank verkoop het, of die toegangsreëls vir die onder agtiens so ietwat gebuig het, vir ‘n geveg tussen ‘n swaargewigbokser, aan die een kant, en ‘n nege maande oue baba, aan die ander kant.

Vra jouself af wie die skuldiges is, al het niemand, behalwe die man in die kryt, die baba aangepak nie. Wat was die rol van die skeidsregter? Het hy bloot die reëls nagekom? Was hy die regter van die bokskryt wat hom geklee het in die verweer van die neergelegte reëls? Vra jouself af, as die omstanders gesê het dat hulle dronk was, sou dit ‘n verskoning wees? Vra jouself af, as hierdie bokser voorheen in sulke gevegte met ander babas betrokke was, sou jy gesê het hy het sy straf uitgedien en dat hy nog ‘n kans gegun moet word.

Vra jouself af of jy onskuldig is as jy jou eie kinders naby hierdie bokskryt toelaat. Vra jouself af of jy hom sou geglo het as die bokser of enige een gesê het dat hy nie geweet het dat dit teen die wet was nie. Vra jouself af of daar enige verskoning vir sulke gedrag kan wees. Die antwoord is ‘n onomwonde: nee. Ek wil iets sê wat ek altyd aan my kinders sê wanneer hulle met verskonings na my toe kom: Die verlede mag jou gedrag verduidelik, maar dit kan dit nie verskoon nie.

Daarom wil ek ook ondubbelsinnig sê: diesulkes soos die Upington Ses, indien hul skuldig bevind word, moet nooit weer ‘n kans gegun word om deelnemers aan of bystaanders by die verkragting van ‘n kind te wees nie. Die debat oor die doodstraf kry ‘n nuwe dimensie in hierdie situasie. Dit gaan nie oor hoeveel geld dit gaan kos om gevangenes aan te hou nie. Dit is irrelevant. Dit gaan daaroor of die kans bestaan dat die verkragters en molesteerders, en indien die kwessie van HIV/Vigs daarby betrek word, die moordenaars, enigsins weer ‘n geringe kans mag hê om nog ‘n kind se lewe te verwoes. Die antwoord is vir my in elk geval duidelik, en die antwoord is: nee.

Daar is sekere prioriteitsoptredes wat ons moet volg, en hierdie stappe verdien voorrang bo enige oorweging of evaluasie van wat die skuldiges aan kinderverkragting, molestering, verwaarlosing, mishandeling of wat ook al daartoe gedryf het. Ek wil geen statistieke opnoem nie. Ek dink ook statistieke is irrelevant. Een insident is een te veel.

Hier is wat ons kan doen: diesulkes soos die Upington Ses moet nooit weer in ‘n posisie geplaas word waar hulle hierdie dade kan herhaal nie. Die regstelsel moet doeltreffend funksioneer, en om dit te bewerkstellig moet fondse en personeel voorkeur kry. Gemeenskapsbetrokkenheid op alle vlakke moet die huidige patroon van ons onverwikkeldheid vervang. Kerke en morele leiers moet aktiewe leiding gee. Tienerswangerskappe moet gestuit word, en die gedrag wat daartoe lei moet onomwonde veroordeel word. Veel meer klem moet gelê word op die A van die ABC van die Vigs debat: ``Abstinence, Abstain’’. Dit is geensins onmoontlik nie. Dit verg net selfdissipline.

Vryheid van spraak kan nie beteken dat volwassenes of kinders in die media slagoffers word van pedofiele of pornografie nie. Die registrasie van seksoortreders, soos wat internasionaal nou gedoen word, moet onmiddellik ondersoek word. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)

[Let us sketch this scenario from a different angle. Ask yourself what would have happened if we arranged a boxing match, or even just passed it, or perhaps rented the hall, or sold the liquor, or bent the admission rules for the under eighteens, for a match between a heavy-weight boxer on the one side, and a nine-month-old baby on the other side. Ask yourself who are the guilty ones, although no one, except the man in the ring, attacked the baby. What was the role of the referee? Did he merely comply with the rules? Was he the referee of the boxing ring who clothed himself in the defence of the laid-down rules? Ask yourself this, if the bystanders said that they were drunk, would that have been an excuse? Ask yourself this, if this boxer had been in similar fights with other babies before, would you have said that he had served his punishment and that he should be granted another chance?

Ask yourself whether you would be innocent if you allow your own children to go hear this boxing ring. Ask yourself if you would have believed the boxer or anyone who said that they did not know that this was against the law. Ask yourself whether there could be any excuse for such behaviour. The answer is an unequivocal: no. I want to say something which I always tell my children when they come with excuses to me: The past might explain your behaviour, but it cannot excuse it.

Therefore I also want to unambiguously say: People like the Upington Six, if they are found guilty, should never again be given a chance to be participants or bystanders at the rape of a child. The debate about the death penalty takes on a new dimension in this situation. The matter is not about how much money it will cost to detain prisoners. That is irrelevant. The question is whether the chance exists that the rapists and molesters, and if the question of HIV/Aids should be included, the murderers, might have a slight chance to destroy yet another child’s life. The question is clear to me in any case, and the answer is: no.

There are certain priority actions which we should follow, and these steps deserve preference above any consideration or evaluation of what drove the perpetrators of child rape, molestation, neglect, abuse or whatever to their deeds. I do not want to quote any statistics. I also think that statistics are irrelevant. One incident is one too many.

This is what we can do: People such as the Upington Six should never again be placed in a position where they can repeat these deeds. The legal system should function effectively, and to effect this funds and personnel should enjoy preference. Community involvement at all levels should replace our current pattern of lack of involvement. Churches and moral leaders should take an active lead. Teenage pregnancies should be stopped and the behaviour which leads to this should be condemned unequivocally. Much more emphasis should be placed on the A of the ABC of the Aids debate: ``Abstinence, Abstain’’. It is by no means impossible. It only needs self- discipline.

Freedom of speech cannot mean that adults or children in the media become victims of paedophiles or pornography. The registration of sex offenders, as is now being done internationally, should be investigated immediately.]

We, as lawmakers, must also review our budget priorities. Our priorities and policies should not and cannot lie with philosophies and abstractions when dealing with these issues. The more vulnerable members of society are, the more they should be able to lay claim to our protection. This should be the basis of any legislation we pass. We must accept the inherent costs of the society we profess to desire. Children in squatter camps, children without care, children without food - all children must be cherished and given priority.

How many of us have looked at the Budget and considered its impact on women and children before we looked at the other requirements? As lawmakers, we must also review our moral priorities. We supposedly do not have time in our legislative programme to pass the recommended law on compulsory HIV testing for alleged sexual offenders although this was put before Cabinet in July. Nor in five years have we paid any real attention to the private member’s Bill on a proposed fund for the victims of violent crime. Yet we make time and money available for changing the electoral laws.

I think, therefore, we have run out of excuses. When we debate this subject next year, let it be a list of our achievements, not of our failures. [Applause.]

Mr R M NYAKANE: Chairperson, there could be no other convenient time as far as I can see than this for our country to seriously consider the employment of preventive sentences for the perpetrators of sexual harassment, particularly given the gravity of this problem today.

A punitive punishment measure one could recommend is nothing short of castrating the offenders, because this kind of punishment would undoubtedly ensure peace and health in the minds of these perpetrators. This is a disease, a psychological disease. Moreover, the taxpayer’s money will be saved because imprisonment and the care of such prisoners cost the taxpayer unbearable inconvenience.

One other proposal perhaps one could make is that we could isolate these offenders, give them their own location and let them stay under the supervision of the police for the rest of their lives. But, at the same time, allow them to go to work and come home and still continue to support their families. The bottom line is that we should really isolate them from civic society.

The last recommendation perhaps one could make, once these people are found to be legally guilty, is to design a label and force them to wear it, behind and even in front of them, which describes their behaviour. One perhaps could have inscription that could read as follows: This is a confirmed sexual harasser and a rapist. They must live with this particular tag for the rest of their lives, and wherever they go. [Laughter.]

These are the few things I was just thinking, because what is happening now is definitely unbelievable. Nobody can really believe what is happening in South Africa. Taking these people to court is going to cost a lot of money, and all that will happen is that they will go to prison, stay there and still enjoy the best privileges that even I do not think I will ever enjoy. [Applause.]

Mk M P THEMBA: Mphatsisihlalo, kanye nemalunga lohloniphekile, idzabuke kakhulu singubomake nabobabe. Sesahlala siphetfwe tisu siphetfwe nangumhelo; sesahlala sibambe tinhlitiyo ngetandla ngendzaba yaletento letentekako kulelive lakitsi. Sivile ngeluswane lolunetinyanga letiyimfica, lolungenelwe babhemi labatsite. Asidzingi nekutsi sibabite ngekutsi bobabe ngobe batilwane.

Kadzeni bekutsi nakutelwe umntfwana kujatjulwe, kodvwa kulamalanga nakutalwa umntfwana sifikelwa luvalo lwekutsi ingabe utawukhula njani. Tsine ngalesikhatsi simtselela ngobe simtsatsa kutsi uyimbali yetfu, kunemabhubezi lambukile lowo mntfwana - ngikhuluma ngeluswane loluncane - latamtsatsa amgagadlele. (Translation of Swati paragraphs follows.)

[Ms M P THEMBA: Chairperson, hon members, we as mothers and fathers are very heartbroken. We are afraid and we are in great agony all the time, and we are always looking over our shoulders as a result of what has been happening in our country. We heard about what happened to a nine-month-old baby girl that was molested by some heartless men. We are not even going to call them men because they are animals.

In the olden days, when a child was born there was a celebration. But these days when a child is born, we are afraid, wondering whether she or he will grow up well. While we nurture the child, treating her like a beautiful flower, someone evil might also be looking at her with hunger - I am talking about a newborn baby - someone who is going to rape that child.]

The sexual abuse of girls in South African schools, documented in a report released on 30 March this year by Human Rights Watch, should be cause for concern for the entire society. The report states that South African girls continue to be raped, sexually abused, sexually harassed and assaulted at school by male classmates and teachers. For many, violence and abuse are an inevitable part of the school environment.

The Department of Education, as part of Government’s commitment to ensuring that our children grow up with a family life, enjoying all the rights and privileges they deserve, has embarked on introducing sexual abuse prevention in life-skills learning through analysing different kinds of relationships that exist between the sexes and also through evaluating these relationships. Learners are enabled to reflect on their own behaviour, on that of others, and to critically evaluate human rights, values and practices.

Despite the effort we made in this House on 1 June this year on International Children’s Day by expressing our anger and outrage at the perpetrators of these heinous deeds against our children, our children have been and continue to be abused, sexually molested, tortured, mistreated, neglected and abandoned by the very people they trust, the very people they rely on.

All day, every day, every hour, men and boys keep touching girls’ and women’s bums and breasts. The police do not consider this behaviour as constituting offences. In doing so, these people destroy the innocence of our children and our women.

Formerly, in our society, children were treated with the respect and dignity that every human being deserves. Our elders knew that if one abused one’s children or let others abuse one’s children, the children would be subjected to violence and ignorance which destroy society. Again, I wish to take this opportunity to reiterate the Government’s commitment to ensuring that all children enjoy the rights and privileges they deserve.

On 1 June 1994 we committed ourselves to the UN Declaration of the Rights of the Child. We have NGOs that are working hand in hand with the Government, such as the National Network on Violence Against Women which was formed in 1995. Its key roles are to promote awareness, services, community mobilisation, advocacy and public education to get Government to take more responsibility for service provision.

One of the biggest challenges facing South Africa is the provision of care for the large number of children infected with HIV/Aids. In 1996 almost 30% of all children admitted to the wards of the Chris Hani Baragwanath Hospital in Soweto tested positive for HIV. In 1998 more than half of the admissions to the wards at King Edward VIII Hospital in Durban were HIV- related. Some of the progressive traditional healers have sent out clear messages to child rapists that HIV/Aids cannot be avoided or cured by having carnal relations with children who are virgins.

Section 28 of our Constitution deals with the rights of children. All children should be protected from child labour and many other forms of economic exploitation which endanger a child’s mental, physical or psychological health and interfere with his or her education in order to develop properly and enjoy childhood. All children have the right to be protected from prostitution and sexual exploitation. It is generally accepted that violence against women and children occurs across all socioeconomic and racial groups and is both widespread and on the increase in South Africa.

The Government has realised that the problem of sexual abuse of children is not a problem of individual pathology, but a severe social disorder, and that intervention strategies would need to address the ideological, sociopolitical and psychological factors involved. It is evident that the problem associated with paedophilia is common in the white community. In the past few weeks South Africa has been alarmed by a new form of sexual abuse of children by poor black communities who believe that having sex with a virgin child reduces the chances of contracting HIV/AIDS, which is not true.

Nami nginembono lonjengewaBabe Nyakane wekutsi lenye indlela yekucedza lobulwane lobu kutsi labadlwenguli laba abaphakulwe, basuswe letitfo letibahluphako, khona bangetuphindze badlwengule, ngobe batabe sebatinkhabi letingahlabi. Loko kutaba sifundvo nakulabanye emphakatsini. Ngiyamesekela imphela Babe Nyakane. Kutakutsi nasebaphakuliwe, bese babekwa endzaweni lapho batawuhlaliswa khona, kuze kutsi netitukulwane tetfu tibabone kutsi laba ngibo bantfu labayinhlupho emphakatsini. Asingeke sibe sisaya nasezu ngobe sekukanyenti siya emazu siyobona tilwane, futsi sesiyatati. Kufuneka sente bona babe yizu yetfu lapho sitawuhamba siyekubabukela khona. [Tandla.] (Translation of Swati paragraph follows.)

[I share the view that was expressed by Mr Nyakane, that one of the ways which we can use to eradicate this animal behaviour is to castrate these rapists and remove the offending body parts, so that they should never rape anyone again, because they would have been neutered. This would be a lesson even to others in the community. I strongly support Mr Nyakane’s sentiments. After they had been castrated, they would be put in a secluded place, so that even our great-grandchildren would be able to see that these people were a menace to our society. There would be no need to go to the zoo, because we have been going to the zoo to see animals for a long time now, and therefore we already know what animals look like. We would put them in our zoos, and we would go there and look at them. [Applause.]]

Mr J O TLHAGALE: Chairperson and hon members of this House, never before has there been so much anger and condemnation of the scourge of sexual violence, harassment and abuse of children, as at present. However, it would appear that the more the condemnation, the more the scourge continues unabated. Some of the incidents that have been reported in the news media are the most horrible, to say the least. Kgoshi Mokoena has just read us a catalogue of these incidents.

When one considers that human beings, in terms of their creation, are only just below a little below angels, one wonders whether there is still any trace of humanity - ubuntu or botho - left in the perpetrators of these ghastly deeds. Some learners who have been subjected to these violence experiences, such as rape, end up leaving school entirely. Very often, such children are exposed to unwanted pregnancies and sexually transmitted diseases, the deadliest of which is HIV/Aids.

What exactly must we do to curb this scourge? Some women’s organisations are so angry that they are even recommending the castration of these rapists in order to render them permanently harmless. I go along with this recommendation … [Laughter.] … especially when one takes into account that there are so many free agents out there who are waiting to be approached and who are ready to say yes to a proposal. [Interjections.] Why should we tamper with children? [Interjections.] I hope I have not said anything unparliamentary, Chairperson.

I further propose that we, as members of Parliament, mobilise our constituencies and everybody else to condemn sexual violence and abuse of children on a continuous basis. I further recommend that heavy penalties be imposed by the judges on the perpetrators. [Applause.]

Mntw B Z ZULU: Sihlalo ohloniphekileyo namalungu ahloniphekileyo, ngokwesiko lethu lesintu, uma izinto sezonakele kanjena kuyaye kusukume abadala bathethe.

Isonto eledlule libe ngelinefu elimnyama ngendlela esibone kudlwengulwa ngayo izingane zethu ezincane kakhulu. Umuntu uzibuza umbuzo othi: Konje konakelephi esintwini uma sesingasenamahloni okwenza izigameko ezinjena?

Ukudlwengulwa kosana, uTshepang, ngabesilisa abayisithupha abagulayo kushaqise umhlaba. Umuntu wesilisa ekhaya nguye ongumvikeli womndeni wakhe, wemfuyo yakhe kanti nguye futhi ongumvikeli wezwe lakubo. Thina madoda aqotho emindenini yawo nasesizweni saseMzansi Afrika sizibuza umbuzo owodwa othi: Ngempela konakalephi kubadlwenguli?

Lesi sihluku sabadlwenguli abanonya olwesabekayo ngisifanisa nezidladla zebhubesi zigxavula inkonyane yenyathi ngenkathi ibaleka ilandela unina wayo, oyaye kuthi noma eseyibona liyithanqaza phansi edlule abaleke ngoba naye engenamandla okuyivikela. Namuhla izingane zethu kanye nabesifazane bakithi abahloniphekileyo baphila impilo enovalo lokuthi bazodlwengulwa bengazelele futhi bathelelwe nangegciwane leNgculazi. Ngokosikompilo lwethu olwamiswa nguMvelinqangi, umuntu omdala uyahlonishwa kakhulu kangangokuthi uze athathwe njengedlozi emndenini wakhe. Kepha kulo nyaka sibona umfana oneminyaka engamashumi amabili edlwengula ugogo oneminyaka engaphezulu kwamashumi ayisishiyagalolunye. Umuntu omdala ubehlonishwa kangangokuthi bekuze kuthiwe umuntu ongasenamanyala.

Izingane zethu nabazukulu bethu bazosihlonipha kanjani uma bezwa ukuthi umkhulu oneminyaka engu-66 udlwengule usana olunezinyanga ezingu-9? Isithunzi sabantu besilisa sizobuyiselwa kanjani uma namuhla kunabanye babo abakwazi ukudlwengula usana olunezinyanga ezintathu? Ngempela abadlwenguli kuhle basiphendule ukuthi yini eyonakele emiqondweni yabo.

Ngesikhathi amakhosi akithi esalwa izimpi, kwakuthi uma ephaka impi ayale amabutho ukuba angalingi abulale abantu besifazane nezingane ngoba kuyaziwa ukuthi abanawo amandla okuzivikela. Ingane encane ngisho nangokweBhayibheli ibizwa ngokuthi ingcwele. Kepha kufanele kwenziwe njani uma abadlwenguli abanesihluku bekwazi ukubulala imbali yesizwe isahluma ingakaqhakazi? Ingabe lolu hlobo lwabantu alusenawo yini unembeza wokubona ubukhona bukaMvelinqangi esidalweni esiwumuntu?

Thina esikhule sifundiswa ngenhlonipho emakhaya besingayazi into ebizwa ngokuthi ``ukudlwengula’’. Lena ekhaya iNgonyama yethu uZwelithini ivuselele isiko lezintombi lomkhosi womhlanga ngo-1984. Kulo mkhosi, izintombi zakithi zivunula ngemvunulo yesintu. Kepha angeke uzwe kuthiwa kukhona intombi ngisho eyodwa okuthiwa idlwengulwe kulo mkhosi. Kulezi zinsuku ezedlule sibone kuMabonakude inkosi uTshivhase e-Northern Province ivezwa yenza umkhosi wezintombi wesiko.

Nginesiqiniseko ukuthi nakhona angeke uzwe kuthiwa abafana badlwengule amantombazane ngoba bewabona evunule ngemvunulo yesintu.

Asibambisaneni sonke, sifundise futhi sivuselele isikompilo lobuntu nenhlonipho emiphakathini esiyakhele kanye nasentsheni yethu.

Isizwe saseMzansi Afrika sibhekene nengwadla yokuba kube nabantu abaphelelwe unembeza wobuntu, ababonakala bengenwe umoya wobulwane ezimpilweni zabo. Umuntu omdala nomncane ubekwesaba ukuphuza adakwe aze angazazi ukuthi ungubani. Abanye abantu buyabehlula utshwala. Uma beke baphuza badakwa, utshwala behlela ngezansi bese bengena esilingweni sokudlwengula. Ngakho-ke abantu abadala bebekuyala uma ungumuntu onjalo bethi, uma ukudla kukwehlula kuyeke.

Enye inkinga esibhekene nayo ngeyendawo yokuhlala. Le nkinga yenza amalunga emindeni yobulili obehlukeneyo alale ndawonye endlini eyodwa. Akukho esikweni lethu ukuba umuntu wesilisa osekhulile alale endlini eyodwa nomuntu wesifazane. Lokhu kungenye yezinto ezikhuthaza lokhu kudlwengula okungaka. Laba bantu abadlwengula izingane nabesifazane akulona uhlobo lwabantu lwesigaba esithile, kepha kudlwengula izicebi, izikhulu kanye nezimpofana. Laba bantu kuyacaca ukuthi kunesikhathi ezimpilweni zabo lapho bezikhohlwa khona ukuthi bangobani, lapho unembeza wobuntu ubashiya khona baphenduke izinswelaboya. Ngumuphi umzali ononembeza wobuntu ongadlwengula ngisho ingane yakhe? Ngumuphi umuntu ophilayo ngokwengqondo odlwengula ngisho usana olunezinyanga ezintathu? Umuntu onobuntu angathi uzelapha kanjani esifeni seNgculazi uma yena ekwazi ukulala ingane engamazi umuntu wesilisa ngokuyithelela ngayo.

Sikhuthaza amakhosi nezinduna ezindaweni zasemakhaya ukuba balwisane nalesi sihlava esingenele isizwe soMzansi Afrika. Izinyanga zakithi seziphumele obala, zakusho ukuthi umuntu oneNgculazi akakwazi ukwelashwa ngokulala nomuntu osemncane.

UmNyango wezoBulungiswa siyawukhuthaza ukuba ubhekane nenselele yokubukeza izigwebo zamacala okudlwengula. Izijeziso ezinkulu nokusebenza kanzima kuphela esicabanga ukuthi kungaba yikhambi kulesi sihlava. [Ihlombe.] (Translation of Zulu speech follows.)

[Prince B Z ZULU: Chairperson and hon members, according to African culture, when things are bad like this, the elders are the ones who stand up and talk.

We had bad luck last week when we heard about small babies who were raped. One asks oneself this question: What has gone wrong with people to cause them not to be ashamed of committing such atrocities?

The raping of baby Tshepang, by six men who were already infected with the disease, has shocked the whole world. A man is the protector of his family and his property. He is also the protector of his own country. We, as responsible men for our homes and for South Africa, ask ourselves: What is going on with rapists?

The cruelty shown by rapists can be compared to that of a lion when it stretches its nails to catch a calf of a buffalo when it tries to run with its mother, who, when she sees her calf being dragged down, runs away because she cannot help it. Today, our children and our honourable women are living in fear of being raped at any time and also of being infected with HIV.

According to our culture, which God gave us, an old person is highly respected; so much so that he is even regarded by his family as their ancestor. However, this year we heard of a 20-year-old boy who raped an old grandmother who was over 90 years of age. In the past an elderly person was highly respected and regarded as someone who has no disgrace.

How are our children and grandchildren going to respect us when they hear that a 66-year-old man has raped a nine-month-old baby? How are we going to restore the dignity of men when today some of them are raping three-month- old babies? In fact, rapists should respond to the question we pose to them as to what has gone wrong in their minds.

In the olden times, when our kings deployed an army, they warned regiments not to kill women and children because it was known that they could not protect themselves. Even in the Bible, a small child is referred to as a holy one. What must be done now when cruel rapists destroy a nation’s flower before it even flowers? Don’t these types of people have a conscience through which they can feel the existence of God in a human creature?

We as people who were brought up in homes where respect was emphasised, did not know the term rape''. There at home his Majesty, King Zwelithini, in 1984 renewed the Zulu culture, which is known as the culture of the reed’’. When this culture is performed girls dress in a traditional way. You never hear of an incident in which a girl is raped during this occasion. Recently, we saw on television inkosi Tshivhase of Northern Province conducting a girls’ ceremony, which is the culture of his people. I am sure that even among his people one will not hear of any incidents in which boys have raped the girls just because they saw them dressed in a traditional way. Let us work together in teaching and reviving the culture of humanity and respect in our communities and among our youth. Those who have lost their conscience, and instead adopted an animal spirit are challenging the South African nation. In the past, young and adult were afraid of drinking to such an extent that they did not know who they were. Some people are overpowered by alcohol. Once they are drunk, they give in to the temptation of raping other people. Therefore, if you were such a person, you would have been advised by the elders to stop drinking since it caused you to do unacceptable things.

Another problem that we are facing has to do with the places in which we live. This problem has caused family members for opposite sex to sleep in one room. It is untraditional for an adult male to sleep in one room with a female. This is one of the things that encourage these rape incidents that are taking place every time. People who rape women and children are not people of a certain class. They are found across social classes. We have rapists from among rich people. There are rapists also among people who hold senior positions in society. We also have rapists from poor communities. It is clear that these people, at a certain time in their lives, forget who they are. They lose their soul and become animals. How can a parent with a conscience rape even his own baby? How can a person who is psychologically balanced rape a three-month-old baby? How can a person of integrity say he is curing himself of Aids by sleeping with a virgin, while he is infecting that virgin?

We would like to encourage amakhosi and their headmen in the rural areas to fight against this character disorder that has affected the South African nation. Our traditional healers have come out clearly and proclaimed that sleeping with a virgin or with a young person cannot heal an HIV-positive person. We would like to encourage the Department of Justice to consider the possibility of revising the sentences given to rapists. We believe that only heavy penalties and diligence will heal this moral sickness in our nation. [Applause.]]

Mrs G N M PANDOR: Chairperson, we keep hoping that our Parliament will not continue to have to discuss such subjects. I think in the last week many of us have observed ourselves expressing justifiable anger and shame at the horrific facts of sexual abuse that have hit South African headlines once more. And I think that each one of us does feel shame at what has happened.

We emerged just last week from observing Be Positive about South Africa Day, a week in which many positive facts and comments about our country were placed in the public domain. Yet, despite these many positive features of South Africa, we continue to be faced with the awful facts of sexual abuse of children and women.

Early media comments on the week’s events tended to imply inadequacies in the justice system, but a review of present law and a record of current innovations in the justice system clearly show that policy-makers have taken many steps to put the right framework in place.

The courts have a set of laws that lay down strict minimum sentences for rapists and increasingly we do see realistic, stiff sentences being handed down. If indeed there are loopholes in the law, we need to examine the laws as Parliament and make recommendations on further tightening of the law and on necessary innovations that will help us to address this blight.

Certain newspapers have had articles that have suggested that some rapists assault children because of their mistaken belief that sexual relations with a child will rid them of Aids. This is a ridiculous and dangerous myth that is entirely devoid of any truth. Any person fed such a myth by any traditional doctor or healer should realise, from today, that raping a child will not save them. All it will do is put them in jail for a long time.

The time has also come for our country to give serious consideration to keeping a register of sexual offenders, particularly those found guilty of assaulting minors. Such a register should be made available at police stations or courts closest to the residence of the abuser and all parents and women should have the right to see such a register. The time has come for bold steps. We cannot continue to protect these abusers in any way.

Of course, the justice system, the police and prison services can only do a part of what needs to be done. The question then is: What should we, as the people of South Africa, do, to put an end to this moral blight on all our people? There is no longer time for us to point fingers at Government, at the police, the judges and the prison services. I think now each one of us, as South Africans, must ask what we should do.

I think, more importantly, as we reflect on these honest questions, we need to stop the situation where certain men in our society take this matter lightly. I observed some laughter as we debated this subject. I find that a very unfortunate reaction and unacceptable. We have a serious problem in our country and I think we need to approach it very seriously.

It seems to me that we have to ask, first of all: What do we need to do in our homes to protect women and children? What should we do in our churches? What should we do in our schools? What should be done in our community halls? What should be done by our newspapers? What should the role of radio be? What do we do in our places of work - not just at home, but in our factories, in our hotels, in our workshops and everywhere else? What do we do to respond to this very serious national problem?

I think each one of us has a role to play: a role in changing the attitude and mind-set of men in our country. Change cannot be left to NGOs, nor to women’s organisations. Some people imagine it is a problem of women and therefore it is women’s components of political parties that take up this issue and others do not, the male members particularly. It is not a problem of women. Women are the victims, men are the perpetrators.

Mention was made that there are some cases where women have abused children themselves by encouraging minors to engage in sexual relations with adult females, but the nature of the problem that we confront in our country is that men tend to regard children and women as available for free and abusive sexual relations. This is the character that we must change.

Men have to begin to lead and sustain a campaign of change. They have to lead a commitment to the security and dignity of women and children. Without such a national campaign we will not succeed in changing the situation and we will debate this subject again in 2002.

Every household, street and town and our whole country should make a public pledge to stop violence against, and the abuse of, women and children. Each one of us, in our streets, homes, towns and country should then assume responsibility for monitoring adherence to such a pledge.

Each one of us will next week return to our constituencies. In those constituencies that we have, let us, as members of Parliament, go door to door - in Maseko Street in Orlando West, in Phiri Street, Meadowlands, and in every street where there are residential areas, let us have people sign a pledge to protect women and children. Let it become public. Let us, as members of Parliament, begin a campaign against the abuse of children and women.

I also think that one of the features that we tend to neglect in our deliberations on this issue is that a great deal of this violence is associated with the abuse of alcohol. Recreation and alcohol are too closely associated in South Africa.

We have done much as Parliament to reduce tobacco addiction and the use of tobacco, particularly in public places, but we have hardly - in fact, never broached the terrible impact of alcohol, particularly in poor and vulnerable communities.

Those men who raped that child - I do not know the facts surrounding the case, but I can almost without fear of contradiction assume that alcohol was associated with their actions. We need to confront this issue.

I think as well that we have to address a number of issues. For example, mention has been made of teachers’ infringement of the right of pupils and of school principals’ infringements of the right of female teachers. We need to look at a stronger code of regulation in order to ensure swift action - against perpetrators of such acts in our public schools. How can it be that teachers do not see themselves as protectors of children? We have to encourage action and look at the code of conduct with respect to teachers, and look at how we put in place swift action - justice, yes, but with swift action - because the protection of children and of women is important. We also need to educate children on the rights that they have. In our schools we should have programmes of awareness for every child.

We also need to address the important matter of providing counselling and psychological services, both for perpetrators and for victims. It would appear from comments that we have seen in the media that, in fact, in the area of Upington, where this terrible blight happened, insufficient counselling services exist to support the family, and to begin to work on these men who have done this terrible deed. We clearly have to look at what form of support we are providing in the area of counselling and psychological services because our country has to rely to a great degree on the rehabilitation of the perpetrators once they have been locked up in prison for a very long time.

We must also look at the issue of how we find and create job and educational opportunities for young men. A large number of these rapes appear to be committed by young boys aged 15 to 25. So we have to address what it is that makes them commit these rapes. Are they unemployed? Do they lack education? How do we address the need to ensure that they do not go into these forms of practices?

In conclusion, I would like to say that it is important that our Parliament and we, ourselves, as parliamentarians, be very wary of reacting in a way that points to a rejection of the essential features of our Constitution.

We have decided, as a new democracy, to create a system of just law in our country. While, emotionally and in anger, I might support some of the harsh action that has been proposed by some of my colleagues today, I believe Parliament has a vital responsibility to uphold the law and to ensure that the law works.

This is not, in any way, a sign of sympathy for perpetrators, but an indication that we have a responsibility beyond our anger. We make the laws, we make the system work and we have to ensure that, indeed, those inherent elements of promoting the dignity, security and wealth of every being are upheld. We cannot give up on those principles.

I also believe that as we act to solve these problems, it is vital that, as Parliament, we continue to uphold the essential contents of the Constitution of our country. If we gave up on that, I believe we would have a far worse situation than the terrible plight we face at this time. [Applause.]

Debate concluded.

            SEXUAL VIOLENCE AGAINST AND ABUSE OF CHILDREN

                         (Draft Resolution)

Mr A E VAN NIEKERK: Chairperson, I thank hon members for all their constructive contributions. I have a special word of thanks for the Chief Whip of the Council, who started the convention of concluding debates such as this one with a resolution of the House. I have before me a resolution by the Chief Whip of the Council on the subject of this discussion, namely violence and abuse against children, to which all the parties in this House have agreed. I therefore move without notice:

That the Council -

(1) expresses its anger and outrage at the heinous deeds perpetrated against our vulnerable children of tender years and at the growing incidence of child abuse;

(2) calls on our prosecutors to take special note of the provisions of section 60 of the Criminal Procedure Act, which has been amended and permits bail only in exceptional circumstances where such violent and heinous crimes are committed;

(3) notes that amendments have been made to the Criminal Law Amendment Act which provides for minimum sentences where sexual offences are committed, more especially when the victim is a girl under the age of 16 years;

(4) is of the view that the violence and aggravating circumstances should receive sufficient weight so that appropriate harsh and severe sentences of incarceration, which would act as a deterrent against perpetrators, can be imposed;

(5) calls on religious communities, civic organisations, NGOs and community-based organisations to support the Government in its efforts to fight these crimes;

(6) is of the view that the overhaul of the Sexual Offences Act, 1957, should be expedited - such overhaul would include a review of the definition of rape, the commercial exploitation of children and offences against mentally impaired children; (7) calls on the Government to focus on the Law Commission Report on compulsory HIV tests;

(8) calls on our schools to intensify their awareness and educational programmes which are in place, in relation to child abuse and sexual misconduct;

(9) believes that teachers and/or school principals who are found guilty of abusing schoolchildren should be excluded from ever having responsibility for or control over children;

(10) calls on local and provincial governments to increase psychological and emotional resources at regional, district and local level to assist victims and their families;

(11) urges the media, electronic and written, to assist in the education and awareness programmes initiated by the Government;

(12) believes that the programmes of the GCIS, which works with committees and communities, should be intensified, supported and promoted; (13) is of the view that an integrated approach among all three spheres of government be followed in eliminating the scourge of violence against and abuse of children;

(14) believes that Special Sexual Offence Courts with the multidisciplinary support centres to empower victims of sexual offences should be expanded;

(15) calls on men, who are generally the perpetrators, to be more vocal and lead the march against sexual and violent abuse of children;

(16) is of the opinion that high-quality investigations should be conducted to track down and persecute perpetrators;

(17) commends the establishment of a specialised Directorate, called the Sexual Offences and Community Affairs Directorate, to deal with sexual offences;

(18) calls on progressive traditional healers to send out clear messages that having carnal relations with children who are virgins cannot cure HIV/Aids and to assist in the education and awareness programmes;

(19) is of the view that illegitimate traditional healers responsible for the dissemination of false information should be arrested and prosecuted;

(20) calls on portfolio and select committees of Parliament to give special consideration to this aspect in their work;

(21) requests traditional leaders to assist in the educating of communities in rural areas;

(22) believes that consumption of alcohol should be better regulated;

(23) urges all its members to make a dedicated effort during this recess period to raise this important issue in their interaction with communities and sustain such programmes in all their public engagements in the future;

(24) calls for the compilation of a register of paedophiles and sexual abusers of children; and

(25) resolves that the motion be referred to the offices and institutions mentioned to enable them to act on this resolution.

Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.

The Council adjourned at 11:07. ____

            ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS

ANNOUNCEMENTS:

National Council of Provinces:

1. The Chairperson:

 Bills passed by National Council of Provinces on 9 November 2001: To be
 submitted to President of the Republic for assent:
 (i)    Agricultural Debt Management  Bill  [B  54B  -  2001]  (National
       Assembly - sec 75).


 (ii)   Lotteries Amendment Bill [B 81B - 2001] (National Assembly - sec
       75).

TABLINGS:

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces:

Papers:

1. The Minister of Trade and Industry:

 Report and Financial Statements of the National Gambling Board for 2000-
 2001, including the Report of  the  Auditor-General  on  the  Financial
 Statements for 2000-2001 [RP 177-2001].