TUESDAY, 13 NOVEMBER 2001 __

          PROCEEDINGS OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
                                ____

The Council met at 14:00.

The Chairperson took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayers or meditation.

ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS - see col 000.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Order! Mr President, welcome to the NCOP. It is indeed a great pleasure, once more, to have you with us. You may note, Mr President, that in the public gallery, for once, and quite unusually, we have citizens of South Africa present in the National Council. A number of the citizens that are in the public gallery are persons who have served their country and communities as volunteers and have won awards as volunteer organisations and individuals contributing to the upliftment of their communities.

As you would know, this year, 2001, is the International Year of Volunteers, and we therefore thought it quite important that we should ask the various volunteers, from across organisations and communities within the Western Cape, to participate in this important day when we have you in the House. [Applause.]

               ELECTION OF ROTATING DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON

The meeting proceeded to the election of the rotating Deputy Chairperson of the National Council of Provinces to fill the post vacated by the Premier of the Northern Province, Adv N A Ramatlhodi.

The Chairperson of the NCOP called for nominations.

Mr M E Surty, seconded by Mr M Shilowa, nominated Mr P S Molefe for election as rotating Deputy Chairperson of the NCOP in terms of section 64(3) of the Constitution.

The Returning Officer reported to the Chairperson of the NCOP that the nomination paper had been properly completed.

There being no further nominations, the Chairperson of the NCOP declared Mr P S Molefe duly elected rotating Deputy Chairperson of the NCOP in terms of section 64(3) of the Constitution.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Order! On behalf of delegates here present, I congratulate you on having been elected as the rotating Deputy Chairperson of the NCOP in terms of section 64(3) of the Constitution.

The PREMIER OF THE NORTH WEST (Mr P S Molefe): Chairperson, Mr President, premiers, hon members of the NCOP, it gives me great pleasure to have been nominated so unanimously by the members of this Council. I think my position has both symbolic and functional value. Its symbolic value lies in the fact that as premiers we can use this position to ensure that there is co-ordination and interaction between this Council and the executive in the provinces. That is where the symbolic value of this House lies.

There is another important aspect, and that is that we should be able to ensure that there is also an interaction between the standing committees of this House, and the MECs in various provinces, to ensure that there is an exchange of information and that information on what is happening in the provinces is also flowing from the provinces to the NCOP. It also provides an opportunity for members of this House to participate in committees in the provinces.

The utilisation of this Chamber as an important national forum to members is, indeed, of particular interest to the provinces. We can also use the Council to promote greater participation in intergovernmental fiscal review matters, to ensure that we deepen our understanding on how we have dealt with issues of finances and on the concrete reality regarding the problems that Government in various spheres has to confront with the limited resources available to it.

We can also use this legislative body as a conduit for legislation that is transformatory in nature, which also ensures that in that legislative process we are able to provide an opportunity for interaction with the executive at the national level and also at the provincial level. These areas require further discussion and debate, and they can be further developed so that this office assumes responsibility of this function in a manner that enhances the value of the NCOP.

I do trust that my election will add value to the work that this House and the previous Deputy Chairperson have been doing, together with the Chairperson and the permanent Deputy Chairperson of this House.

I would like to take this opportunity to thank all the members for the confidence that they have shown in me. [Applause.] The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Order! We now proceed to invite the various premier colleagues of the new rotating Deputy Chairperson to offer brief congratulations. We begin with the hon outgoing rotating Deputy Chairperson, Premier Ramatlhodi.

The PREMIER OF THE NORTHERN PROVINCE (Adv N A Ramatlhodi): Madam Chair, hon President and colleagues, it is an honour and a privilege to be afforded this opportunity of congratulating Premier Molefe on his elevation to the position of second Deputy Chairperson of this august Chamber. As an outgoing second Deputy Chairperson, I can assure Comrade Molefe that the position he is assuming today is, indeed, very daunting, given the importance of the NCOP in the body politic of South Africa. He should think of himself as treading where angels fear to tread.

However, he is in good company with the Chairperson and the permanent Deputy Chairperson, and I am sure he will bring to this work the wealth of experience that he has garnered over the years. I also want to take advantage of this opportunity to say that we are most grateful for his having recovered from his recent operation, and I know it has been a bit of a difficult time. We are not loading him with more functions because we do appreciate the fact that he might still be a bit fragile. Nevertheless, we are confident that he is a soldier that has been produced by the people and that he will carry this burden with fortitude. Congratulations! [Applause.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Order! With the leave of the House, we will allow the premiers from the other provinces to include their congratulatory notes to the rotating Deputy Chairperson in their speeches following the address by the President.

We therefore conclude the election proceedings.

                ADDRESS BY PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC

The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Madam Chairperson, Deputy Chairperson, rotating Deputy Chairperson - I hope he has stopped rotating now … [Laughter.] … hon premiers, hon members, councillors and community leaders who are present with us here today - I think I should also acknowledge the hon Cecil Herandien, who is handling a somewhat difficult situation from what I see in the media … [Laughter.] … I would like to thank you for the opportunity you have given us once more to discuss important matters with the NCOP. Last year when we addressed this House we spoke about the challenges facing all of us with regard to local government structures and their role and place in the transformation of our society.

Since then, we have held successful local government elections, thus completing the important work of bringing about genuine democratic structures in all spheres of government. The challenge we now face is to ensure that these structures, working together with all our people from all stations of life, function as real agents of challenge that will help us both to entrench democracy in our country and to end the great South African divide between rich and poor, between the developed and the underdeveloped.

The challenge facing the new democratic structures of Government is the transformation of the lives of the many in our society whose existence is defined by the prospect of a bleak future. Through concrete programmes we must inculcate the hope and conviction among our people that, together with their Government, they can and must defeat poverty, disease and marginalisation.

Hence, we have, in the last seven years, constructed a Government that is not only democratic, nonracial and nonsexist, but one that is developmental. We have brought into being a Government that, while it confronts the challenges of reconstruction and development, simultaneously involves the people in action, consistent with our vision of people-driven processes of change.

In this context, the strengthening of local government structures following last year’s first fully nonracial elections, at this level, is a critical element in building our democratic system of governance and ensuring that our people have the possibility of engaging practically in the processes of governance and development. By these comments, we seek to emphasise the view, I am certain we all share, that local government is an important component part for the successful implementation of our development programmes in both rural and urban areas.

Already, all the new local authorities have submitted their Interim Integrated Development Plans, which articulate the development needs and priorities of the different communities. All of us, and particularly members of this House, must ensure that the Integrated Development Plans, to be finalised in March next year, are practical, workable programmes that will be the tools for integrated development and that will help us to change effectively the living conditions of all our people, wherever they may be.

In this regard, at the national level a special interministerial committee has been formed to assist the municipalities. In addition, before the end of this year, all three spheres of government will take part in a special meeting of the President’s Co-ordinating Council in order to assess progress in the establishment of the new system of local government and to determine areas requiring further strengthening of the system of co- operative governance.

As the House is aware, to improve the efficiency and effectiveness of Government, we have restructured the operation of our different departments to ensure integrated planning and implementation. This means that we are moving away from a fragmented system of governance so that we proceed faster towards the realisation of the goal of a better life for all.

This approach, of integrated formulation and implementation of developmental programmes across departments and among spheres of government, informs our work as we implement the Integrated Sustainable Rural Development Programme and the Urban Renewal Strategy.

When we met in the national Cabinet lekgotla in July this year, Government had concluded the detailed plans for rural development in the 13 identified nodal points. The further 17 nodal points will be announced soon so that we move with the necessary speed to implement development programmes for our people in the rural areas.

As we have said in the past, we cannot just build a clinic when we have not trained the health personnel, when we have not budgeted for drugs, or the area does not have water, sanitation or access roads. If we have a programme of assisting black farmers, we should ensure not only that they have access to machinery and finance, but that the infrastructure in their areas is in a good condition, and that the telephones and roads are in a working condition so that they have the possibility of marketing their products.

It is also in this context that we have put in motion the implementation of one-stop centres, the multipurpose community centres that bring together multiple government services in a single place, ensuring easy access for people and communities that would otherwise be cut off from the services they rightly deserve as citizens.

Implementation of the Urban Renewal Programme began in earnest in May this year with the Alexandra project in the Gauteng province. Further elaboration of the Urban Renewal Strategy into a programme on par with the rural development programme is at present in progress.

Following an assessment in September of all the eight urban nodes, nodal business plans and reprioritising of funds were completed in October in preparation for a national workshop in March that will see a finalised strategy and programme going to Cabinet in May next year.

The urgent matter of capacity has been addressed through the appointment of nodal delivery teams whose members have core capacities in project management, financial management and community facilitation. Clearly, Madam Chair, I should say that the people who are sitting up there today must be part of this particular process. In this way, the quality of work will be enhanced, ensuring financial accountability and expediting the pace of delivery. I mention these in part to illustrate what can and should be done by all of us to ensure the provision of goods and services to all our people on a sustainable basis. In this context we must also emphasise the point that all of us should, at the same time, refuse to accept the provision of shoddy goods and services to our people, as this, apart from anything else, constitutes a waste of scarce public resources.

As we have said earlier, we also seek to involve the people in the work of the reconstruction and development of our country. We therefore seek to make ours a truly participatory democracy. To this end, Government has embarked on the Imbizo programme of engaging our people, to have dialogue with them, to hear their views, to listen to their concerns, their grievances and advice about the pace, direction and content of our work.

As we speak here today, we have just participated in the first Imbizo focus week as part of this campaign. The theme of ``Intergovernmental Co- operation for Local Delivery’’ saw sustained activity in all of our provinces around implementation at the local level. The events involved members of the executive from all three spheres of government. At the national level many Ministers and Deputy Ministers were involved, as was the presidency, with the Deputy President involved during the week itself. I myself paid a visit to the Eastern Cape shortly before this week began.

This interaction is important because the people who voted us into Government have done so because they want us to change or to help to change their lives. It is important that we do not seek their views only during election periods, but that we should do this consistently and at all times.

Through the imbizos and the interactive, participatory engagements with the people, democracy is enhanced and the content of this democracy is fully expressed on an ongoing basis. As we carry out this work, it is important that the different spheres of government, as well as various departments, communicate a coherent message to the people and not respond in a fragmented and contradictory manner. We have to do this, because we must interact with the people in an honest manner, confronting, practically, the challenges that face the people.

Through this interactive programme the people should know exactly what we are doing, how we are doing it, why there are delays in specific instances and what Government is doing about obstacles to the implementation of our development programmes. Through the imbizos we should make it possible for all of us to celebrate the successes we have registered and together plan for the initiation or acceleration of outstanding programmes. The interactive programmes should also assist us in clearly defining the roles and responsibilities of Government, the state-owned enterprises, private businesses, the NGOs, the trade unions, the community leaders who are sitting in this room today, and the masses of our people in the transformation process in each and every locality.

This interactive programme should also help to improve the effectiveness of our public representatives, by making them alive to the practical difficulties facing the public servants who are at the coalface of the implementation of our programmes, as well as service delivery.

In my own interaction with people working at the delivery level, I have often been confronted by problems that should be solved in the course of a day’s work. Yet, these problems drag on for months or even years without anyone attending to them. Surely it cannot be that problems will only be solved because the President has visited an area? It is the responsibility of all of us, the councillor, the mayor, the traditional leader, the MP, the MPL, the MEC, the premier, the Minister and the Deputy Minister to attend to each and every problem that faces our people. In this way we will bring Government closer to the people and contribute practically to the acceleration of the process towards improving the lives of especially the poor in our country.

The imbizos we have attended have highlighted problems in implementation, but also presented practical solutions that could be achieved if we work together. What we saw during two of these, what we heard and learnt, was both inspiring and challenging. While the majority of South Africans all over the country have experienced poverty, our programme took us to areas where it is worse than most. We learnt that some of the problems experienced by people in these communities were as a result of the inability of the managers appointed by Government to carry out their work and that the blockages experienced were a result of this.

There was, for example, a case of bad management at a hospital. It was only through our visit that an intergovernmental procedure was unblocked which, up until then, had prevented a hot water geyser in the hospital from being repaired. This had resulted in the hospital having no hot water. We learnt that where communities had some years ago advised the Government on how to deal with projects, Government had refused to listen. This had resulted in the collapse of these projects after all the necessary investment had been made. We were told of councillors who had not been in touch with their people and were only seen towards election time. Fortunately, the situation seems to me to have improved significantly since our last local government elections.

Above all, it is clear that our people are eager for change and want to work as partners with Government in expediting that change and ensuring that that change benefits them. The people are conscious of their roles in developing themselves and the entire country and believe that we as elected representatives should act as true partners with them in everything we do. They are also driven by a sense of confidence that, together, we will win.

In some parts it seemed that the people were not attending meetings as they should to speak to their councillors about their problems and perspectives. It is clear therefore that through the imbizos we have created a space for more meetings to take place, more possibilities where Government and people could converse and reach conclusions on the way ahead. Above all, we have learnt that Government ought to listen more to what the people are saying, that the people have an important input to make about what must be done.

The lessons learnt from the imbizos pose challenges to all of us at all levels of government. These include our management capacity, which needs to be strengthened in order for projects and programmes to happen effectively and within the timeframes agreed; and for relations between different levels of government to be strengthened through a fully integrated approach that would expedite delivery. The Government needs to listen, and needs to learn to listen, to take note and to act quickly on concerns raised by the people. Clearly, more opportunities should be created for imbizo-type meetings to occur so that government by the people and for the people is clearly seen to be an ongoing relationship of accountability, a conscious partnership true to the electoral mandate that has been given.

I am urging all of us, in the course of our work, to travel beyond the end of a tarred road. We should be prepared to forego the luxury and smoothness of a tarred road and deal with the bumpy potholes and rough surface of a gravel road. That is where we will see the real South Africa that is posing the challenges that we must overcome.

Although burdened by poverty and underdevelopment, the South Africans who live beyond the tarred roads have refused to be defeated by their conditions. They have refused to be victims of circumstance. We will be inspired to experience at first hand the determination of these people to work with Government to change their lives.

Because of this partnership, we have seen communities enjoying the fruits of democracy and of the implementation of Government policies - farm labourers becoming owners of the farms they had worked on for many years; villagers blessing the gift of life as clean piped water came to them for the first time. We have seen how this partnership has made it possible for nurses in rural areas to use telemedicine to access specialised medical services, both to diagnose and to treat maladies affecting their patients. We have come across young people in the rural areas using the Internet to learn mathematics and the sciences, because Eskom brought electricity to their village and the CSIR and the Department of Arts, Culture, Science and Technology brought in computers.

We have seen the practical partnership between Afrikaner farmers assisting black farmers to overcome historical barriers and become successful commercial farmers, thus improving their standards of living. We have been inspired by these masses of our people who have confidence that this democratic Government will address their needs that have for so long been neglected, who understand that even if the road ahead is long, change of necessity reaches some before others. We have seen inspiring examples of what we can do to define ourselves as patriotic South Africans who are prepared to work hard, even if it is on a small scale to make a difference in the transformation process.

This confidence in the future, on the part of the very poor in our country, places a great responsibility on all of us who have been elected to represent these masses. The leadership represented in this House must occupy the frontline as we go beyond the tarred roads to work together with all our people to ensure that there are no impassable roads, that there is no community in our country that is isolated from the rest by poverty, by underdevelopment and by inhuman suffering.

We are approaching the halfway mark of our national and provincial parliaments and governments. Much commendable work has been done to build on the foundation laid during our first five years of democracy. The results of this effort are visible to every honest person, both inside and outside our country.

We have a clear view of what we should do further to advance the objective of securing a better life for all our people. We have put the necessary institutions in place to enable us to achieve this objective. What remains is for us to act with vigour and consistency to accelerate the process of progressive change.

We will do this better if we act together with the masses of our people, relying on them as conscious partners in the struggle for the reconstruction and development of our country. For this to happen, we must go out to the people to report to them, to assess the impact of our policies and programmes, to listen to their views, especially those that are critical of our performance, and to interact with them honestly and truthfully.

I trust that as the National Council of Provinces enters the second half of its life, it will take up this challenge without hesitation and help us further to improve our system of democratic governance and further to improve the lives of our people.

We have a duty to justify the confidence of the masses of our people in their elected legislatures and Government, to demonstrate practically that their hopes for a better life are not misplaced. In the words of Frantz Fanon:

To educate the masses politically does not mean, cannot mean, making a political speech. What it means is to try, relentlessly and passionately, to teach the masses that everything depends on them; that if we stagnate it is their responsibility, and that if we go forward it is due to them too.

I am certain that the National Council of Provinces will respond to this challenge. [Applause.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Order! I now call upon hon Premier Shilowa of the Gauteng province, and I alert him that he is first because ``g’’ is before every other letter in the names of provinces. [Laughter.]

The PREMIER OF GAUTENG (Mr M S Shilowa): Presidente wa Rhipabuliki ra Afrika Dzonga, Mutshami wa Xitulu na swandla swa yena, swirho swa yindlu leyi leswi hloniphekaka, ndza mi losa. [The hon President of the Republic of South Africa, Chairperson and your deputies, hon members of this House, I greet you.]

I did not say anything to Premier Molefe because my younger brother from my adopted province has said enough, and we agree that … [Inaudible.]

As public representatives of the people of our country, we were elected and mandated to implement policies and programmes that would lead to overall improvement in the quality of life of our citizens. Working together with them and the private sector, we need to ensure that the economy grows at higher rates, creates new jobs and continues to develop into a modern and internationally competitive economy.

The overwhelming mandate we received in 1994 and 1999 respectively indicates their level of confidence in our ability to lead the process of change and steer our country to its destiny. Having placed us in this position of responsibility and leadership, they did not abdicate their responsibility to work with us and to give us the necessary support to ensure that we succeeded. They continue to influence our policies and programmes. And ensuring that we do not veer from the path to a better South Africa is something they continue to do.

A challenge for us in Government is to ensure that the people are better able to participate in our work and influence legislation-making and policy formulation and implementation. We are obligated to create possibilities for the exchange of information within and among communities, and between Government and society.

The RDP-based document says:

Open debate and transparency in government and society are crucial elements of reconstruction and development. This requires an information policy which guarantees active exchange of information and opinion among all members of society. Without the free flow of accurate and comprehensive information, the RDP will lack the mass input necessary for its success.

This we agree with as the Gauteng provincial government. In Gauteng we have made communication and interaction with the people, on an ongoing basis, an integral part of our work. In our daily work we seek to give practical meaning to the principle that says that government work is public work.

Dynamic and direct interaction and dialogue with our people where they live continues to be a permanent feature of our work. This people-centred approach is a principle of democratic governance. It is also an effective mechanism to ensure that as Government we are in constant communication with our people, that we indeed address their needs, that we remain accountable to them, and that they are indeed able to impact on governance and work with Government in addressing common challenges.

Tomorrow, 14 November 2001, the Gauteng executive council will be visiting various communities to report back on work done since the beginning of the year. We will share with the community successes, shortcomings and challenges. Together we will develop an approach to ensure change at a faster pace.

Madam Chairperson, I hope you will ask the GPG delegates in this House to make available that report so that you too, together with this House, are able to help us improve on what we are doing or not doing.

During such an interaction, we will together with communities remind ourselves of our priorities: priorities of a growing economy that creates sustainable jobs; of improved quality service delivery in areas of health, education, social welfare and housing; of greater focus to create a nonracial, nonsexist, democratic and united country; and of ensuring that together we focus on a sustained youth and women developmental strategy.

But we are also hoping, together with them, to say together that at least as a province we understand and approach issues of globalisation and economic matters not as matters of suspicion, or rather of superstition, but as challenges posed by new production forces, the new way in which capital flows and also in terms of information and technology; and that together we need to look at how we engage in a manner that will make Gauteng a better place to live in for all our citizens. Above all, we will recommit ourselves on how, as citizens, we can take the lead in social transformation, thereby avoiding being bystanders in our own struggle.

In further giving effect to the right to government information and services, working with both local and national Government, we continue to service multipurpose community centres to serve the people of Gauteng, as the President himself has indicated. So far, two MPPCs have been established, in Sebokeng and in Bronkhorstspruit.

Our approach to these community centres is underpinned by our commitment to ensuring effective provision of information and services to the citizens of Gauteng, particularly to the majority of our people who have been denied historically this access. Access to information is key to enabling all our citizens, particularly the poor and marginalised, to use their rights and to entrench a people-centred participatory democracy.

While the Government has a duty to inform, the media also has an important role in facilitating exchange of information within and among communities, and between the democratic Government and society as a two-way process. Many of our people rely on the mass media as a key source of information. For this reason we have continued to engage with the media on how to improve their role in this regard.

We regard the media as an important stakeholder in Gauteng, and we believe that it has an interest in securing a better future for our people and our province. We also believe that the media has a social responsibility to provide citizens with information that will help to improve their quality of life. We will continue to explore areas of common interest in this regard.

Let me also indicate that on 15 November we will be hosting the Gauteng Intergovernmental Forum, in which we will be looking at the Gauteng Provincial Economic Strategy. We will be looking at the local economic strategy based on the IDPs, and at how to realign both the provincial and the local economic strategies to better serve our people as a whole. We will also be looking at the challenges faced by a number of municipalities for service delivery both inside and outside of cross-border municipalities.

Lastly, we will be looking at how, together with them, we can turn Gauteng into a construction site over the next three years. [Applause.]

The PREMIER OF THE EASTERN CAPE (Rev M A Stofile): Chairperson of the NCOP, hon President of the Republic of South Africa, colleagues, members of the NCOP, let me first congratulate our colleague Popo Molefe on being formally elected as the rotating member of the NCOP, and I hope that one day he will be elected as the rotating member of the presidency of the NCOP.

The NCOP is a very important part of our parliamentary democracy, and as such it needs people with a special passion for parliamentary systems, procedures and programmes. Our public representatives have these characteristics in varying degrees. Our country is blessed to have a fair share of people with such a passion, and Popo Molefe is no mean member of such a group. We are very proud of him and absolutely confident that he will be able to make a contribution to improve the leadership of the NCOP, and also to contribute towards a transformatory agenda of the NCOP and our country. He comes from amongst us. He is one of us. He has a broad understanding of the challenges of many decades that confront our country, from the First World to the ``Fourth World’’ components of our country. Popo has a good grasp of this.

The President raised the challenges that confronted us as we went to the local government elections at the end of 2000, and he correctly pointed out that the democratic structures that were put in place needed to be strong and properly resourced in order to be able to deliver the services that we have spoken about so much. This is so precisely because we believe that they are at the cutting edge of our service delivery, and as such all personnel, as well as monetary resources, must be made available to these structures of our Government. They are also the key to the transformation of our society because they are in close proximity to the people who want to see this change rather than to hear about it.

We are pleased to agree with the President that since 5 December 2000 up to now, a lot of work has been done by the local government structures. Their IDPs have been completed. They have not only been completed but they are beginning to reveal the massive backlogs that these spheres of government should deal with.

While some strides have been made, it is clearly indicated in those IDPs that there is still a lot that lies ahead of us. We have insisted that they should not just stop at the IDP level but go beyond that and develop the LEDs that will make it possible for our people to improve their lives when the communities have electricity, when the streets are tarred and have all these facilities available; then they will also have the income that will assist them to pay rates that are so important for municipalities to operate.

Our fortnightly outreach programmes, which are now in their third year, indicate by and large that our people, black and white, are very well disposed towards our programmes and plans. But they are not always aware of what we are doing. There is a big void between ourselves and the communities in terms of communication and the flow of information. They understand our constraints even better than those who are self-proclaimed commentators on these things. But the advantage of talking to them face to face is that it affords them the opportunity to ask questions, receive answers and understand or refuse to understand, but at least they are able to get a response.

We were in Mount Fletcher on 14 October, and that lady who was shouting under the tent o maaka, o maaka'' [you lie, you lie’’] when we said that we would tar R56, we saw her again last week. She was the first to come to us and said that the graders had arrived and the packs for tarring these roads were even in their yards. She apologised for saying ke Nongqawuse'' [its impossible’’] when we were there last time. [Applause.]

The private sector, from home and abroad, is also showing growing confidence in and appreciation of the sociopolitical stability in our area. To that extent, they continue to interact with us with a view to identifying areas into which they can begin to plough their investments or where they can partner with us in some of the projects that are so sorely needed in order to improve the situation of our communities.

The village meetings continue to influence our own budgetary plans. They continue to influence our own priority lists because every time one goes out to these villages, one learns something new, and they also learn something new. And that symbiosis of learning invariably makes the necessary impact on our plans and priorities. Sometimes we find that all of our plans are based on the computer data, and not on the reality on the ground. This is encouraging, but it is also a daunting challenge.

We are pleased that our communities are being mobilised into being part and parcel of the planning machinery for their own development in their own localities. They are tired of being the objects of history and our planning. They want to be part and parcel of these plans. They asked us at Ramohlakwane last week: ``What is this Nepad that we hear the President talking about?’’ That affords us the opportunity to explaining to them, rather than simply expect them to come on board on this new partnership.

They asked us the question: ``What is this Gear that creates so many problems amongst yourselves, because if it is one of the five gears, you can just shift to the one that is commensurate with all your aspirations.’’ [Laughter.] These questions sound like stupid questions, but they are very simple and honest questions. When we respond, one can see the ironing out of the frowns on their brows, that at least something new is left behind as we take something new back to Bisho.

We are absolutely confident that, despite the size of the backlogs and the constraints of our resources, we are absolutely on track and our people are with us. [Applause.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Mr President, hon members, we are very pleased to have with us in the public gallery a delegation from the National People’s Congress of the People’s Republic of China. [Applause.] The delegation is a parliamentary committee on finance and economic matters, and has been engaging with our committees in that regard on common business. I now invite the hon Deputy Chairperson of the National Council of Provinces, Mr Mushwana, to speak.

Mr M L MUSHWANA: Hon Chairperson, hon President, I will be speaking in both Xitsonga and English. Let me start by informing Premier Molefe that I am very jealous of him, because he has taken over the rotating Chairpersonship from my premier, the Premier of the Northern Province. [Laughter.] Nevertheless, I welcome Comrade Popo Molefe and hope he will bring new blood to the National Council of Provinces.

At the last workshop we held in the NCOP, many questions were asked about why we have a rotating Chairperson. What is actually the function of a rotating Chairperson? I think, with regard to the past two rotating Chairpersons, I have not seen either one of them presiding anywhere in the NCOP, and I think Comrade Popo will bring in new initiatives. [Laughter.]

Firstly, I would like to commend the hon the President for taking time out of his congested schedule to be with us. We appreciate the fact that the President did find time to be with us.

Ha ku amukela hi mandla mambirhi. Titwe u ri kaya. [We welcome you wholeheartedly. Feel at home.]

We know that South Africa needs the President, so does Africa and the world. They all need his undivided attention, and they do need his wisdom on and vision of the new world of globalisation.

Globalisation, as it now turns out, makes the world a small colony and a monopoly of rich countries. Unfortunately, globalisation is here to stay, and we therefore have to be ready for it. We need the qualitative leadership of the hon the President.

We know that the President’s family and friends need him. We also need him and are happy to have him in the House.

Vukona bya wena eka yiNdlu leyi yo hlawuleka swonghasi, byi hi endla hi twa hi xiximiwile naswona ha tinyungubyisa. [Your presence in this honourable House makes us feel highly honoured and we therefore feel very proud about your presence.]

More importantly, I wish to thank the President for his challenging speech, the guidance it gives, the views it contains and the information on what preoccupies the Government in its fervent quest to provide a better life for all.

Most importantly, the President also leads some of those who did not vote for him, or who do not support him, those whose sole public and community responsibilities seems to be to criticise the President for whatever he does, good or bad; if anything the criticism is bad. They take offence when the President expresses his opinion; they claim to have better opinions.

Va ri ku vulavula i xongela n’wini. I vaxihanya-nomo, lavo dya va tshamile. Va tshovela laha va nga hlwanyangiki kona. [The saying goes that self- praise is no recommendation, all they can do is pay lip-service, they just want to sit and eat, and reap where they did not sow.]

They are not doing anything for the people. All they do is spend all their time finding fault with the President. Those armchair critics - those who just found themselves free without knowing or wanting to know who freed them, or, for that matter, pretend not to know who freed them - we know them, we see them. Come Judgment Day, we will not be there to assist. Some have their bodies in this country, but their souls and minds are wondering across the seas in places I dare not mention.

Va swi lava, a va swi lavi, laha hi nga fika kona a ha ha thleleli endzhaku. A va thelele, va ta hundzuka matshuka ya munyu. Whether they like it or not, we have reached the point of no return, and if they turn back, they are going to turn into pillars of salt.]

It would be naive if we did not thank the President for all the initiatives he has embarked upon to design and formulate programmes and strategies to rid Africa of its crippling poverty, isolation and backwardness.

The President started with Map. In the process, Map and Omega, which is the product of Senegal, merged and became the New Africa Initiative. Chemistry led to the final product - Nepad. All these are the bricks and mortar on top of the African Renaissance, another initiative the President helped to rekindle. The gods have indeed gone into a deep sleep, enjoying their dreams, for in the President they saw success and therefore have nothing to fear.

Swikwembu swi etlele bya tinhenha. Swi etlela mugudzalala. Swi wisile. Hinkwaswo leswi hi wona matimba ni migingiriko ya wena. The gods have gone into a deep sleep, enjoying their dreams; they are resting. All this is due to your dedication and hard work in your activities.]

The President has just told us about Imbizo, which to me is a consultative programme with people at the grass-roots level. This programme was indeed initiated by the President and his Government.

During our struggles we did say that the people shall govern, and that we will bring Parliament closer to the people. Imbizo does just that. We welcome this initiative.

Swa biha ku fambela evanhwini ntsena loko hi lava leswaku va hi hlawula. Swa fanela leswaku hi tihlanganisa ni lava nga hi hlawula leswaku hi ta titwela hi ta hina tindleve leswi va karhataka, xikan’we ni ku twa leswi va navelaka leswaku hi va endlela swona. Hi amukela pfhumba leri hulumende a ri sunguleke naswona hi ta ri seketela. Ni tolo exivijweni ku kona laha swirhalanganya swi rharhuliwaka kona. (Translation of Tsonga paragraph follows.)

[It is bad to interact with people only when we want them to elect us. It is appropriate to communicate with people who voted for us in order to hear with our own ears about things that are problematic to them and to listen to their aspirations in order to enable us to fulfil their needs. We accept the programme initiated by our Government and we are going to support it. Yesterday a meeting was held where problems were sorted out accordingly.]

May I also take this opportunity to thank the hon premiers, including hon acting premiers, for coming to the NCOP to participate in this important debate. There can be no NCOP without provinces. Our special thanks and appreciation also go to special delegates here present, and to Salga.

We are looking forward to greater participation of Salga in the NCOP. Salga has a much greater role to play in the NCOP, and everything must be done to assist Salga to improve its participation in the NCOP. We should also help Salga in being given sufficient room to play a meaningful role at the provincial legislature.

We know that the NCOP, in my own terms, is a lekgotla. It is the only institution in which all three spheres of government come together and debate matters of mutual interest, and it brings all provinces together. Provinces are able to share ideas on best governance. The NCOP provides a forum for local government, through Salga, to articulate matters of interest to municipalities. The NCOP can therefore be defined as the citadel of co-operative governance. But the question is: Is the NCOP able to satisfy its mandate?

We are happy to say that, in the end, the NCOP has finally found its feet in the lawmaking process, and it has, at all costs, tried to avoid duplication of what transpires in the National Assembly, as was the case in the Senate. This happens because of your fine leadership qualities, Madam Chair, and we are proud to announce that the NCOP, as I have said, has found its feet. More special delegates from the provinces are increasingly playing a greater role in the NCOP. Topical matters relating to provinces have been discussed within the NCOP. Recently, the Intergovernmental Fiscal Review report was, for the first time, tabled in the NCOP. The report was subjected to intensive public hearings by the NCOP’s select committees, recommendations were made and, finally, a debate was held in the NCOP. Through the IFR we were able to assess performance of service delivery at the municipal level.

We admit that the NCOP has so far not been fully successful in terms of using this forum for public debates, as envisaged in the Constitution. In my submission, matters such as boundary disputes, chieftainship, and participation of traditional leaders in local government should have been some of the matters to be debated in the NCOP rather than in the media.

We saw acrimonious debates on the role of traditional leaders and local government being waged in the newspapers. I have no qualms about the media, but what we are saying is that the Constitution provided a mechanism which we are not utilising. Talking and negotiation have brought South Africa where it is today, and talking has managed to bring together people who hated one another but whom, most unfortunately, history and geography have condemned to live together.

Va ri ku vulavula ngopfu kumbe ku dya ngopfu a hi ku hlula ndlala. Timhaka kumbe mabulu a swi heli, ku hela nkarhi. Ndzi ta gimeta kwala [Swandla.] (Translation of Tsonga paragraph follows.)

[A lengthy speech may not achieve any goal; a lot could be said, but due to time constraints, I would like to end my speech by saying thank you. [Applause.]]

Mr P A MATTHEE: Chairperson, Mr President, the question that every South African, especially public representatives, must find an answer to for himself or herself is: What is the effect of my daily actions and the choices I make on the future of - in the case of every South African - myself, my family, those closest and dearest to me, my business, my job and, in the case of politicians especially, also the effect on the future of our country and those that we represent in Parliament?

Can it, in present-day South Africa, be in the best interests of our country and the people that we represent to practice fightback politics. We, in the New NP, say no to that kind of politics. It is, in fact, counterproductive to the interests of voters and minority groups. It will not achieve anything, and it certainly will not contribute to the solving of the problems of our country, for example the unacceptably high level of crime, poverty, HIV/Aids, joblessness, etc.

We say that we must help to make the new South Africa work. We must build, not fight back. South Africa and Africa have had enough of fighting. [Interjections.] As former President Nelson Mandela said in his inauguration speech, ``This is the time to heal the old wounds and build a new South Africa’’.

This, of course, does not mean that we should not criticise. It does, however, mean that when we criticise we should criticise in a constructive way and offer solutions. This means that we must take coresponsibility for the future of our country and our continent. We, therefore derive no joy from any failure of the Government, but we are filled with joy when there are successes.

This approach is spelt out in our election manifesto of 1999, as follows:

The New NP says yes to government where provision is made for multiparty government, representing all communities and where responsibility is shared to make South Africa work; where opposition parties are not relegated to the sterile and negative role of critics, but are regarded as constructive players in the political system.

We did our best to get the DA to accept a more constructive approach and although it seemed we had some success in the beginning, the DA fell back into the fightback mode. [Interjections.] The reports of last Sunday and of Die Burger of today say our approach will have to show tangible results before the next election if we want to succeed at the polls. We accept this challenge. It is with this in mind that I, as I did during this debate last year, again turn to the question of crime and the unacceptably high levels thereof in our country.

Although this is but one of the several extremely important challenges that face our country, I believe that if we can solve this problem, the solution to many of our other problems will fall into place. I, and I believe most if not all of us, of course also have a passion for the personal safety and security of all our people.

I am glad that the presidency has been able to provide an answer to my question in terms of measurable goals and timeframes for the lowering of our crime levels by way of the reply of the Deputy President to my oral question on 30 October this year when he said that the stabilisation of crime levels was targeted to take place in the period of 2001 to 2003, and that the normalisation of crime levels, compared to international standards, was targeted to take place in the period of 2003 to 2009.

In a follow-up question I asked the Deputy President whether it would not be possible to reduce by half the period during which it was envisaged that the levels of crime would be reduced to international standards. Obviously, I did not get a definite answer then as this is something that will have to be looked at very carefully again before such an answer can be given.

I want to ask the President today, as our head of state, to please consider ordering an investigation into the possibility of realistically bringing the date for the achievement of internationally acceptable levels of crime forward to the end of 2005 instead of the end of 2009. This will, of course, entail a proper analysis as to what is required by the different departments and those departments involved in poverty relief, because we will only be able to sustain lower levels of crime if we also succeed in effectively addressing poverty.

It is also important what it will cost, but money spent wisely on the effective prevention and combating of crime is the best investment we can make. The dividends will be extraordinarily good. If we succeed we would have saved many thousands of innocent lives. We would have prevented many thousands of women and children being raped, and many thousands of innocent people from being brutally assaulted and maimed. We would also have saved our country and our citizens many billions of rand. We would have attracted many extra billions of rand in direct investment and we would have attracted thousands more tourists. We would have also succeeded in getting our economy to grow much faster and have created many thousands more job opportunities. We would be able to address poverty much better, and be able to create a much safer and better life for all our people.

I refuse to believe that this is an impossible dream. Many of the reasons why we are not succeeding are within our control. If we succeed, we will also prove to our people that constructive engagement is the only kind of politics that works and is effective in South Africa. It does not help to shout from the sidelines. The only way is to get onto the building site and start building. We accept coresponsibility for the future of our country. We will therefore devote all our energy to making South Africa work in order to create a better life for all our people.

We can, we must and we will with passion play a constructive role in building our country and our continent, not only because it is the right thing to do, but because it is in the best interests of all South Africa’s people.

Now is the time to take hands and to build a new, just, safe and prosperous South Africa that we are all longing for and that all our people are longing for. It is within our reach. We owe it to those who have given their lives for a new and better South Africa. We owe it to our fellow citizens and children and all the people and children of Africa. [Time expired.] [Applause.]

The PREMIER OF THE NORTH WEST (Mr P S Molefe): Madam Chair, I have a little more confidence now because I speak as the rotating Deputy Chair, or revolving Deputy Chair. [Laughter.]

Colleagues and Mr President, thank you very much for this privilege. Before 1994, South Africans spent a lot of time grappling with the question of how we could create a democratic state and what nature of democracy we wanted in our country. We went through the processes of the Codesa negotiations and then the elections that took place. Thus our concept of democracy had been created. But the challenge continues, and it is one of giving meaning to that democracy to the ordinary people. That meaning goes beyond just allowing them to participate in an election.

I would like to take this opportunity to thank the President for providing vision, which keeps us focused on those issues that are our business as leaders of the people, and on those issues that are closest to the hearts of our people.

Almost two years ago the national Cabinet began to introduce the concept of imbizos, which is a particular style of governance that promotes active involvement of the public not only in the implementation of programmes of Government, but also in the shaping of those programmes that Government then brings to the people.

In doing so, this facilitated direct interaction between the politicians and the ordinary people. In a sense it also concretised two dicta, one that says The people shall govern'', and a second that saysHear us; let the people speak.’’ That is what we are really trying to do through these imbizos - to realise that.

This also assists us in bringing about public accountability; not public accountability through the Auditor-General or through the newspapers or through what the opposition parties say in the Chambers of Parliament, but public accountability as demanded by the ordinary people, educated or uneducated, people who derive the questions that they raise about issues of accountability from their own direct experience, from their concrete reality.

The imbizo therefore is a way in which we implemented a norm of government

• how new government should operate - and how to do so on a continual basis. There are certain selected periods when we do this. In a sense we are also creating an opportunity to report to the people throughout the country in the same way that we report to the legislators. We now also report to the people. We are doing so through Cabinet Ministers, MECs, the President, the Deputy President, and premiers. The councillors have also bought into this concept. They go into the communities to talk to the people about what they are doing and about the concerns of the people.

That achieves another objective, that of ending what appeared to be the dichotomy between the local and provincial sphere government and the national sphere of government. When we discussed the elections of 2005, there was the problem of the local sphere of Government being regarded as an unwanted child in the family of governments. We now are emphasising the message that says that we belong together, we are one government, but with three spheres. In a sense this is also bringing about a kind of confidence in and respect for local government.

The imbizo concept also achieves another strategic and important principle, and that is the principle of a new patriotism, which the President and the former president have been raising consistently. The principle says that if we want to build a new South Africa, we have to work together. But, for the masses to work together, they must understand what it is that this Government wants to do, what its problems are, and become part of resolving those problems. They have to understand what resources are available in the whole country to deal with those problems.

This also empowers our communities, because it puts them in a position where they cannot be manipulated by populist charlatans, who simply want immediate political gain, but who are not interested in a sustainable programme to resolve the problems of the people. When the people understand what challenges they face in the country, no one can manipulate us. This interaction with the masses therefore provides us with that opportunity.

Our province is divided into districts and we have already held successful imbizos in the four districts. Together with Ministers and the Deputy President we listened to the masses of our people. They spoke fearlessly and confidently about the successes and failures of Government.

The imbizos were based on projects. We felt we should not just be talking about plans, but launching and unveiling projects, which have already been started, and announcing new ones which are coming to indicate to the people that things are happening. We dealt with issues like basic services that have to be extended to people, problems of economic transformation and growth, and issues of unemployment.

The imbizos play the very important role of bringing together different role-players in our society, once again, therefore, engendering a sense of common purpose among all groupings in our society. All of them are committed to a single programme of improving the lives of our people.

The imbizo programme gave us a platform to further cement the relationship between Government and traditional leaders. The traditional leaders saw themselves as very much part of the unfolding drama of transformation and development of their own communities. They did not see themselves as spectators on the sidelines. They were very much part of it, and they provided leadership and guidance to Government and to their own communities.

What it also emphasised, as the President said, is the need for integrated service delivery, the need for integrated planning, the need for integration in implementing our plans with traditional leaders, national Government, provincial government and local government.

Indeed, as Premier Shilowa said, it also challenges us, as provincial governments and national Government, to realise that the integrated development plans of municipalities are not something divorced from the overall national plan of implementing programmes in the country. They must be very much part of the national and provincial plans in order to ensure that we do not parachute into a municipality to implement what we call a national or provincial programme, as if a municipality has got no plans about issues and challenges that are facing it. I think, increasingly, the President is bringing about that realisation to all of us that we cannot operate like that. We have to be different, but interdependent. We have to be distinctive, and co-operative. I think this is what is happening, and this is what we are doing.

The programmes we are implementing are linked directly to the specific challenges that each party defined when it ran its election campaign. Here we talk about poverty, crime, unemployment and underdevelopment. The imbizos, therefore, provide us with the opportunity to work together with our people in implementing all those programmes. This shifts the focus of our people from dabbling with political slogans to real issues that affect the lives of the people on a day-to-day basis. It also says that democracy must be something that gives hope to our people that tomorrow life will be better than it has been today. They must be able to say so because of the answers they get both in terms of the words they hear and in terms of the programmes that they see us implementing. It also empowers our people, as I indicated earlier on.

We are thus delighted to be very much part of this programme of the imbizos. Our exco has been roving, going to various parts of the province. We hold our meetings together in communities with the district councils and municipalities to make sure that when we go to the people we do so together and address these problems. I think this has deepened our understanding of the challenges that are facing our country and our province. It allowed the ordinary people to engage us, to fill us in and also to guide us.

I think the whole concept of Multipurpose Community Centres, which the national Government has started in collaboration with the provinces, is going quite a long way in ending the digital divide and ensuring that rural people can also access technology in rural parts of our provinces. It also assists our people in accessing information and, at the same time, gives information to the various levels of government and the various leaders who are leading them because, as much as leaders are providing vision to the people, the people themselves are shaping the vision that the leaders provide to the people. They inform that vision, because a vision that does not reflect the wishes of the people and a concrete reality is a useless vision. It is unrealistic, and a superstition, as one of the previous speakers said.

The President has therefore ensured that we interact with our people. He has ensured that the vision we provide is a vision that is shaped by a concrete reality and the wishes of our people.

I think the challenge facing the NCOP is one of monitoring to see how this whole concept of integrated planning and integration is being implemented in the provinces. As it plays its monitoring and legislative roles it should do so with a proper understanding of how things are being done in the various provinces by all the nine provinces. They should understand that the whole advent of developmental local government meant that we have a collective responsibility to co-ordinate the strength of that local government in order for it to be effective, good, transparent and accountable. [Applause.]

The PREMIER OF THE FREE STATE (Ms I W Direko): Chairperson, because I do not have a sister premier, like Premier Shilowa is to Premier Molefe, who can make congratulatory remarks to me, I will have to do it myself. It is exciting that we are seven years into our democracy and that at no stage has our democracy been held to ransom. The smooth election of our second Deputy Chairperson is indicative of that. I do, however, wish to salute the sterling contribution made by the outgoing second Chairperson, even if he did not chair at any point. [Interjections.]

His advice on the quiet has helped to make the NCOP a better representative of provinces. And by the way, there are still people who will not accept that the NCOP is a very important organ of Government, because it keeps us, ordinary people of the provinces, informed of developments. We do appreciate the immense amount of work that he has put into liaising with provinces. Even if he did not sit in that maroon chair, he still made his contributions behind the scenes.

I wish to convey my sincere congratulations to the newly elected second Deputy Chairperson, the hon Popo Molefe. His experience and willingness to serve his people will enrich this office immensely. Good luck on the road ahead. [Interjections.]

Participatory democracy was thought to be impractical in South Africa before the democratic Government came into office. Today this Government has proven that people have a serious role to play in determining their fate. Establishing institutions that enhance democracy was also another indication of our seriousness about making people part of governance.

The President and his Cabinet are a source of inspiration to provinces with their willingness to go to the ordinary people in the streets to listen to and hear their problems and needs. The Imbizo campaign must be an ongoing process as it combines the three tiers of government. We are able to work together, and the impact is immense.

In the Free State we have taken our executive council around the province in an attempt to bring the government closer to the people. In all the five districts of the province, imbizo activities were arranged throughout last week, and both MECs and councillors participated fully in ensuring the imbizos’ success wherever we went.

In terms of the President’s message, it is important to realise that the ivory tower type of government has no place in our new democracy. It is the common government, what I call ``airport’’ type of government that is successful. This means that when you sit at the airport, regardless of who you are or what your status is, information comes to you through loudhailers, and you know exactly what is happening, which plane is taking off and when.

It thus becomes incumbent on us, as representatives in Government, to make sure that we are on the ground - even planes take off from the ground … [Laughter.] and that we liaise with our people all the way. [Interjections.] The President’s wise advice that communities must receive our focus throughout, and not only at election time, is appreciated. They want answers. They must be part of the process throughout, because people refuse to be regarded as voting cattle. It is important that ordinary people know what happens in Government all the way, and as a Government that has committed itself to being transparent, it is absolutely imperative that we go out to our people and tell them where we are, what we have done and the reasons for failing to do what we ought to have done.

In pursuit of this programme, the hon the Deputy President will be visiting the people of Xhariep district in our province later this month. This district is one of the poorest in our province, and someone of the hon the Deputy President’s stature will visit that area. The Deputy President is in the position that he is in because of Xhariep, a small insignificant community, and therefore it is important that the Deputy President speaks to them face to face. That is what we do about our Government. We are saying at this point that others should join us. Even the opposition - or what is left of it - must join us. [Interjections.]

It is not only enough for Government to go to the people, but the crucial point is: What is the Government doing to address the needs of our communities? These are some of the questions that come up that we need to reply to honestly to tell the people why we have not been able to do certain things that we ought to have done.

The partnership between the national Government, the provincial government and the local government has already achieved a first in terms of the implementation of the Integrated Sustainable Rural Development Programme in the Thabo Mofutsanyani district, which is our nodal point in the Free State. We have now identified about 12 projects which will contribute significantly to the eradication of poverty. By the way, in case the House does not know what I mean when I say Thabo Mofutsanyani, it is the dumping ground of the previous Government; Qwa-Qwa, where everybody who was not Tswana and did not go to Mafikeng was dumped.

The Fikapatso project includes the construction of water treatment works. The arts and craft market at the Basotho Cultural Village is another project that will enable people to become their own employers, and this is what people want. They do not want to be begging all the way - that takes away their self-respect and human dignity. Traditional leaders have always been there, and they will continue to be there, so we give them the recognition that they deserve and bring them on board to assist us in whatever activities we are involved in in improving the quality of life of a given place in the Free State. Trade unions are brought on board, the private sector and many more.

The provincial government has facilitated the formation of a provincial structure of religious leaders with the purpose of involving them in leading the moral regeneration of our society. Religious leaders in the past made great inputs in the fight against apartheid, and in our democratic Government we cannot and must not forget about them. With the help of our people, our efforts towards co-operative governance will reap fruit and the people will become beneficiaries. The developmental process that we are following was an attempt to alleviate poverty and improve the lives of our people and cannot unfold without the involvement of all our people.

We must remember that our people insist on being involved. They are like our disabled people, who say: Nothing for us without us. People on the ground say no decisions should be taken without them, and that is why we take the trouble of taking Government to the people, going out to the people and involving them in all decision-making.

Our attempt to build a new Free State is encompassed within this developmental process on the road to a new nationhood and a new patriotism. It is also encouraging to see that our national political scenario is getting towards that common nationhood. The writing is on the wall that there can be only one South Africa and that everybody, regardless of colour or political affiliation, is a South African. Thank goodness it is happening in our lifetime.

It is also encouraging that our national political scenario is moving towards a common nationhood. I wish to salute all those who are working day and night to realise this long-cherished goal, and with all of us working together, there is no reason South Africa should not become a country that can take its rightful place in the global village with pride and dignity.

I would like to thank hon Premier Popo for listening to me so intently. [Applause]

Die WAARNEMENDE PREMIER VAN WESKAAP (Mnr C B Herandien): Mnr die Voorsitter, agb President, ek wil ten eerste sterk beswaar maak teen die Swepe omdat hulle my laat praat direk na so ‘n ervare spreker. Dit is nie reg nie. Maatjies maak nie so nie. [Gelag.] (Translation of Afrikaans paragraph follows.)

[The ACTING PREMIER OF THE WESTERN CAPE (Mr C B HERANDIEN): Mr Chairperson, hon President, in the first place I want to raise strong objections to the Whips, because they want me to speak straight after such an accomplished speaker. It is not fair. Buddies don’t do that. [Laughter.]] Allow me also to add my congratulations to the newly elected rotating Deputy Chairperson. I know for a fact that the new rotating Deputy Chairperson will serve his term of office with dignity. There is a long- standing convention in Parliament that, in one’s maiden speech, one must try at all times not to be controversial, and I will try to adhere to that convention. [Interjections.] On the other hand, the House will appreciate that I received very short notice of this meeting. So, I ask the hon members to bear with me because I will try my best to adhere to the convention. [Interjections.]

I am pleased that the topic of public service delivery, both internally and externally, has been highlighted for discussion today. It is without doubt a subject that remains close to the heart of the Western Cape provincial government.

Although GCIS figures show that the Premier of the Western Cape made more than twice as many public appearances as other premiers in South Africa, a survey indicated that the people of the Western Cape held a common perception that the provincial government was nevertheless unresponsive and invisible. For this reason, the Western Cape provincial government launched a campaign to address the issue of service delivery. Project Open Door was created, and manifests itself in a number of ways, including Cabinet visits throughout the province.

It also found expression in a special initiative designed to improve communication between the Western Cape government and its electorate. The first part of the campaign over a period of two months sees print and radio advertisements and public relations activities which invite people to raise issues with their government. This the public is doing through the medium of a professional call centre between the hours of 9h00 and 18h00 on weekdays. The call centre is able to take calls in isiXhosa, English, and Afrikaans, and the message we bring to everyone in the Western Cape is: We are listening.

I am very pleased to be able to tell the President that so far the campaign is proving to be successful and well worth the effort, notwithstanding the current political issues in the Western Cape.

We can be forgiven for not having the budget capacity to launch massive housing projects across the country, or for not being able to provide financial security to every aged person in South Africa, or even for not being able to make drugs freely available to Aids sufferers, but we must take great care to ensure that we do not fail to communicate with the people of South Africa.

That is one area where we can ensure better service delivery. It is an area which is not dependent on huge budgets. Service delivery is as dependent on open communication with the people of South Africa as is the physical aspect, such as the delivery of housing. The same can be said of internal service delivery.

Whilst on the subject of budget and its consequences on defining service delivery capacities, I ask for the President’s indulgence as I raise the matter of the census and the impact this would undoubtedly have on the Western Cape, should it fail to touch everyone. Indications in some areas are that a mere 65% of the people have been visited by a census enumerator. The hon the President would appreciate the significance this has with regard to our ability to serve the needs of the people in our province.

Service delivery is something we need to practise internally with diligence and mutual respect in order to be effective in the business of good governance. At this moment in time, South Africans across the board are feeling heightened levels of concern over international matters such as the war in Afghanistan and its effects on the world economy.

On the local front our people are caught in a pincer movement between ever- rising costs and a growing perception that we are failing to deliver. In the Western Cape recent political issues have exacerbated matters, adding considerably to the perception that gave rise to the need to launch the Open Door campaign in the first place.

We are cognisant of the need to project a positive image to the outside world and not only to the people of South Africa. In this regard, I want to assure the President that the Western Cape provincial government will work together with all the other provinces on a consultative basis to achieve common goals in this respect. This forum is seen as an ideal platform to work together and to avoid dictatorial influences which will distract us from such worthwhile common objectives.

In the same breath, may I also take this opportunity to appeal to the President for his intervention, particularly in highly sensitive matters such as land restitution. To the vast majority of South Africans, service delivery is interpreted as meaning only two things: land restitution and employment. Project Open Door is just the start of what we would like to see become a regular feature of government in South Africa. Every day we are being reminded through the media, through crime statistics and through our historical legacies of the awesome task before us. Let us not fail where we have no excuse for failure. [Applause.]

Ms M P THEMBA: Chairperson, hon President, it is an honour and a privilege to participate in a presidential debate on a critical issue such as public participation. An important debate such as this provides a perfect platform where issues that still affect the meaningful participation of rural women in our public life can be brought to the attention of the national executive.

Over the last decade there has been considerable focus by Government and civil society on strengthening the participation of women in our law and policy-making processes. In pursuance of this objective, Parliament established a number of gender machineries, including The Office on the Status of Women, whose main mandate is to support gender mainstreaming and monitor this within Government departments; the Commission on Gender Equality, whose main functions are spelt out in the Constitution; and the Joint Monitoring Committee on the Improvement of Quality of Life and Status of Women, whose role is to oversee that legislation and policies brought to Parliament are gender responsive.

In addition, a number of laws dealing with issues such as the promotion of equality and prevention of unfair discrimination, recognition of customary marriages, maintenance, domestic violence, employment equity and affirmative action have been passed by Parliament.

Although we might not have reached the desired levels of participation, a cursory glance at the level of women’s representation in institutions such as Parliament, provincial legislatures, municipal councils and the broader Public Service is evidence of a commitment to enhance the participation of women in our legislative and policy processes.

While we must acknowledge the immense gains that have been made by women since 1994, we should not avoid the realities which are still hindering meaningful public participation by women, especially those in our rural areas.

Poverty, unemployment, pressures of time for many rural women who work, inadequate transport, inadequate communication facilities such as telephones and televisions in rural households, and a high illiteracy rate are some of the main obstacles inhibiting the meaningful participation of rural women in our national political life.

The central question we must ask ourselves is: How do we enhance the participation of rural women in the political and legislative processes of Government? What kind of mechanisms do we need in order to creatively respond to challenges facing rural women in respect of public participation?

A good starting point would be to critically assess the effectiveness of the strategies employed by our national gender machineries in advocating greater awareness of the plight of our rural women and in creating more opportunities for rural women to participate in Government processes. We should honestly ask ourselves if these instruments are placing enough emphasis on rural women and whether we do not need realignment of their priorities and programmes to place greater emphasis on enhancing the participation of rural women in our legislative and policy processes.

Another important way in which we can ensure greater public participation by rural women is by taking Parliament to our rural areas. The Joint Monitoring Committee received an overwhelming response from rural women when it visited them as part of Parliament’s aim to enhance the participation of rural women in the legislative processes during April 2001.

As members of Parliament we must ensure that this interaction between Parliament and rural communities is an ongoing process, because it is through activities such as these that we will be able to inform rural women of opportunities that exist in order for them to become involved in shaping Government policies to their benefit. Tifundza tinendzima lenkhulu letingayidlala ekwenteni kutsi bomake babe yincenye yetinhlelo taHulumende, ikakhulukati labo labasemaphandleni. Nyalo sekusikhatsi sekutsi tifundza tonkhe toyimfica tibumbe emakotimiti latawubukelela kutfutfukiswa kwemphilo yabomake, pheceleti, ``parliamentary committees on the improvement of quality of life and the status of women’’.

Ngaleyo ndlela, bomake batawukhona kuba yincenye yetinhlelo tetishayamtsetso kuloko lokuphatselene nabo.

Ngihalalisela siFundza saseNyakatfo ngoba sinelikomiti leliphelele lelibukele tidzingo tabomake. Ngiyetsemba kutsi naletinye tifundza titawulandzela. [Kuhlaba lulwimi.] (Translation of Swati paragraphs follows.)

[Provinces have a significant role to play in making women part of the Government’s programmes, especially those in the rural areas. It is time all nine provinces formed committees that will be tasked with the development of women. I am referring to parliamentary committees on the improvement of quality of life and status of women. That way women will be able to be part of the programmes of the legislatures with regard to what concerns women.

I congratulate the Northern Province because it has a fully fledged committee which deals with women’s needs. I hope other provinces will follow suit. [Interjections.]]

In particular, it will have an important oversight function in terms of assessing and making recommendations on provincial programmes, which are aimed at increasing the participation of rural women in provincial legislative and policy processes. In creating a new system of local government, it has also opened the door to increased participation by rural women in government processes. It provides a unique opportunity for our gender machineries to influence policy decision-making at local level.

In this regard, we need to ask ourselves: How effectively are we utilising local government to address the problems faced by rural women in relation to public participation? More importantly: How are the national gender machineries positioning themselves in Government’s Integrated Sustainable Rural Development Strategy, so as to provide a voice for rural women in this process? These are some of the important questions which we, in the national gender machineries, need to find solutions to. We cannot always expect to get answers from Government to these questions.

In conclusion, I want to touch on the issue of resources. The allocation of adequate resources is central to the effective and efficient functioning of our national, provincial and local gender machineries. If we want to give an effective voice to rural women, we will need the resources to do so.

While we still do not have adequate resources, it is important that we maximise those resources that we do, in fact, have. One way of doing this is to ensure closer co-operation between our national gender machineries and those on provincial and local levels. In this way, we will be able to put together existing resources and direct spending to areas where they are needed most, namely in increasing the public participation of rural women in our national political life. [Applause.]

Mrs J N VILAKAZI: Chairperson, your Excellency the President, hon members from provinces and colleagues, South Africa is poised to be at the centre of the next civilisation. The world believes in us. We, too, must believe in ourselves more than we have ever done. Our firm belief in ourselves as well as our firm belief in what we have set out to do will enable us to create the centre of this new civilisation.

South Africa is made up of those who have their future in their own hands and those who cannot help themselves. Of those who cannot help themselves, there are many who are involved in crime. These people terrorise the communities in which they live. They bring local businesses to their knees, destroy social coherence, discourage tourists and discourage investors from bringing money into the country. South Africa’s destiny lies in the answers we provide in respect of people who cannot lift themselves out of the conditions which they are in.

If four bulls in a span of eight will not move, the whole span comes to a standstill. Who are the people in our country who cannot help themselves? Is their misfortune of their own making or is it that the Government and society are failing them? We remind ourselves that we promised a better life for all. Are we delivering on any of these promises? If not, what are the reasons for a very large number of people remaining outside the economic circle?

These questions confront every one of us in every political party. We cannot shift the blame this way or that. If work opportunities are scarce, can we not use the large pool of available labour for infrastructure development? Can we not create 100 000 more opportunities for market gardeners? Can we not also accelerate SMMEs so that spinners, weavers, dyers, clothing market crafters, potters and so on flourish?

Our Government can pat itself on the back for many of its achievements. The one area to which much more attention needs to be given is the area of unemployment. Even if two or three new Deputy Ministers were appointed with the specific purpose of reversing unemployment, we would be doing well.

We have a growing crisis on our hands and we need to dedicate Deputy Ministers to striving night and day to turn things around. If we do, our country is headed for greatness and our leaders will be long remembered in history. We dare not fail this challenge. Indeed, we must not fail it. Together, with strength and purpose, with unity and commitment, we can reverse joblessness and hopelessness. Let us do it. Let us create a better life for all as we solemnly undertook to do. God gives us strength and support.

Siyakhala baba, ukudlwengulwa kwezingane kwandile futhi ukudlwengulwa kwabadala kakhulu, izalukazi impela esezixhilibe kakhulu, kwandile. Sidinga ukuthi kubuyiswe ukuqiniswa kwesithunzi samakhosi ethu ukuze kume leli zwe. Uxoshindlala kufanele asize wonke umuntu. Phambili ngomqondo we mbizo, phambili! Amalungu Ahloniphekile: Phambili! (Translation of Zulu paragraphs follows.)

[We are saying child rape has increased, as well as the rape of elderly people, especially grandmothers. We need to have the status of the amakhosi strengthened so that this country will stand still. The Xoshindlala project should help everybody. Forward with the idea of the imbizo, forward!

HON MEMBERS: Forward!]

Ms E C GOUWS: Chairperson, Mr President, hon premiers and members, we have many problems in the Eastern Cape, but the Eastern Cape is also a very proud and unique province. The President’s family family roots and those of the ANC lie in my province. My roots, the so-called white Afrikaans tribe, and those of disillusioned Voortrekker leaders like Piet Retief and others, lie in this province.

The President’s party, as well as the Voortrekkers many years ago were unhappy with government and they acted to free their people from tyranny, my people from British rule and the President’s people from apartheid rule. Let us say that the birth and the growth of the President’s party can be traced back to the Eastern Cape. Allow me to say that the decline and the eventual demise of the once mighty white NP can also be traced back to the Eastern Cape. In the Eastern Cape, we play hard. We play ruthless, but we like fair play. There is no need for me to stress our problems, the House is only too aware of them.

Let me highlight only two things we would like to achieve in making the playing fields equal and in fair play being allowed in my province. First of all, greater efforts are needed to bring jobs and dignity to the millions of people in the Eastern Cape. Secondly, urban crime, farm murders and all firearm-originated incidents must be dealt with severely and eradicated. Our country is losing jobs faster than it is creating them. Mechanisms should be put in place to provide funding and expertise to rescue business and especially tourism.

There is no vaster unexploited area in South Africa for tourism than the Eastern Cape. This is the region, besides its sheer beauty and scenic nature, where modern man first emerged in the world some 120 000 years ago.

We have already started an African Renaissance Community Project in the Ngqurha area. Nowhere else can one see an African marketplace: fresh produce, arts and crafts and Khoisan rock artwork. We must show the world out there our fynbos, the traditional African healers, organic medicine, trading ports and untouched nature.

I believe there is no quick solution to the crime situation. Let us try to eliminate those things that contribute to crime, and promote the better implementation of laws. It must be more difficult for violent criminals to obtain bail and we must pay attention to the procedures leading to the granting of parole. The crime of using a stolen or unlicensed firearm during a crime should carry a heavy sentence. Only murder, violent rape and treason should be rated higher.

Social upliftment and job creation are essential. Hungry people will steal, even firearms, to feed themselves and their families if there is no prospect of a job. Many years ago Thomas Jefferson said, and I quote:

When the government fears the people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny.

The citizen who is law-abiding must be seen as a bastion against crime and tyranny. We in the Eastern Cape do not fear the Government. We are loyal and law-abiding citizens. We ask for the opportunity to make a success in our province. [Applause.]

Mr E RASOOL (Western Cape): Chairperson, Mr President, I want to add my voice of congratulations to Premier Molefe for being elected as the rotating Deputy Chair of this House. I think it is significant that he is put into that rotating position in this province at this time. We have seen rotating words, rotating loyalties, rotating parties, rotating premiers and rotating mayors in this province. We welcome him to the rotating province. [Laughter.]

But in all of this rotation that we have seen in the Western Cape there is probably the greatest need for this intervention by the President and this kind of government by imbizo, because what this province and its citizens, its people, need more than anything else is a restoration of faith in the politics of this country.

The President’s initiative to go to the people, to listen, to provide a platform for problems to be aired, to celebrate achievements and identify weaknesses, I think, is the most important process that we need, particularly in this province. The Western Cape and Cape Town have suffered enormously for the past two and half years, and I think Acting Premier Herandien has highlighted what surveys have been showing.

This province is potentially a great province, given its natural beauty, its infrastructure that was concentrated in Cape Town at the expense of the Northern Cape and the Eastern Cape, higher income levels, attraction for investors and tourists, levels of urbanisation which have given greater access to services, and its diversity of people, cultures and languages. It should be a province where people are happy, where people are working in harmony with each other, where there is the greatest onslaught against poverty, disease, homelessness and all other kinds of things.

It is a province where there should be the biggest sharing of the economic benefits that accrue in this province, and yet the reality is that it is a province in which there is the greatest alienation, as seen in the rampant gangsterism, the phenomenon of urban terror and the abuse of women and children that take place in this province.

It is a province where there is the greatest divide between rich and poor, where there is the greatest polarisation amongst the different racial, religious, language and other groups. In short, our diversity in this province has been a cause of our weakness and division, and has not resulted in our strength and unity.

The past two and a half years, characterised by that rotation that I have spoken about, have seen a deepening of our weakness and division in the body politic of the Western Cape. It has been added to by, if not fed off, an oppositional strategy that sought to find a formula to grab the opportunities of this province, such as the economic growth, without confronting the challenges and the divisions amongst its people.

They tried to showcase its natural beauty and its infrastructure, but at the same time to mask the pain of its people. They tried to pit the Western Cape against the rest of our country and our continent without understanding that if the world is a global village, then the Western Cape cannot stand separate. In short, it was an oppositional strategy that thought that these contradictions could be masked by or resolved through maintaining a sharp focus on the negative issues which result from that strategy. The fear of the other was meant to keep our province together - the fear of blacks, the fear of other religions and languages - invoking the most stereotyped image of our continent to try to hold people together.

Thankfully and true to form, history has systematically set about unravelling each and every contradiction as we sit here today. Unfortunately, it is the people, the electorate, the voters, the citizens who have borne the brunt of indignity, particularly over the last few months, a loss of faith in the political process across this province, diminishing trust in Government’s ability to care, a greater apathy and a growing despair about whether a better life is indeed possible in this province. This idea that the President has come to report on to us today, this practice that he has been leading for the last two years of the imbizos, of contact with the people, is probably the greatest example that we need as we seek to define an agenda of co-operation on the great common ground that exists among all of us in this province, that transcends the past. But we must be conscious in understanding what this concept and this practice of imbizo is. We need to restore dignity, faith, trust and optimism amongst the people of this province.

As Cape Town and the Western Cape emerged from this tragic experiment of opposition gone wrong, the people in this province need to see Government and political parties at work, criticising and differing where we need to, debating how best to go forward, not whether to go forward, but unafraid and unashamed to occupy that massive common ground that this country and our province offers to everyone who loves it. That is what we need to grasp as we go back to our people to restore their faith in what we are about.

The people of Cape Town and the Western Cape can only have their dignity restored, their faith in politics renewed, their trust in Government re- established, their despair reversed, if we follow the example that the President reported on here today, of going to the people and doing what they need of us, what they want from us and what they demand of us; doing that and not doing what is convenient to political parties, to movements, to alliances and to individual politicians.

We need to say that that great common ground, that glue must hold us together as the ANC and the New NP in this province to seek ways of turning around that lack of faith that ordinary citizens have developed in the political process. The glue that holds us together is an orientation towards the poor, to find a balance between the interests of the rich and the needs of the poor, to find a way in which our people in all the diversity, whether it is racial, linguistic or religious, can find a common ground, and they can call this Western Cape and this city their own. That is what we need.

The President has come here today to show us that through the process of the imbizos we should go to the people, listening to them and doing what they want of us and not what we define. This is what we should do. I think therein lies the restoration of faith in the political process. It is that faith which has systematically been battered over two and a half years in this province. I believe we can restore it. I believe that the President has shown us how to do it. I believe that this is the emerging world. If all of us, particularly those who have today defined themselves in the New NP and the ANC, find ourselves and find each other, I believe that we will turn the province around. [Applause.]

The PREMIER OF THE NORTHERN PROVINCE (Adv N A Ramatlhodi): Modula setulo, le batlat[s]i ba gago ba ba bedi, moPresidente wa rena le ba Mphato, ke re thobela, re a lot[s]ha. [Chairperson and his two assistants, our President and colleagues, I greet you.]

In 1955 the Congress of the People adopted the Freedom Charter and the opening line of it was:

South Africa belongs to all those who live in it, black and white.

Forty-six years later, we believe it is our curse and our fortune to make sure that indeed South Africa does belong to all those who live in it, black and white. We, therefore, stand ready, and without much choice, to embrace our fellow compatriots in the quest to build a better future for all. We welcome all those who, in spite of massive difficulties in doing so, have had the courage to take a giant leap forward.

They will find us ready, willing and able to work together for a common future. We are doing it not as a matter of political expediency, but because we believe that South Africa belongs to all those who live in it. Many have perished under conditions of exile, in jails, while being part of the underground movement, and we have seen some with fists up, dying, and still saying that South Africa belongs to all those who live in it.

The other ideal that was enshrined in the Freedom Charter was that the people shall govern. So, when we talk of a people-driven society and a participatory democracy, we are once again actualising the ideals and dreams of our forebears in saying the people shall govern. In recent days, our President announced the ground-breaking Integrated Sustainable Rural Development Programme which heralded the acceleration of an ambitious programme aimed at speeding up the delivery of a better life for all. The essential feature of this programme is that it does not look at the masses or communities as powerless recipients of handouts from Government donors, agencies and welfare organisations, but is rather designed to ensure that people take charge as joint architects and co-builders of their own future. Without trying to downplay the many developmental challenges that still confront us, it is equally true that every day, with each little victory, we are making progress. We see this in the opening of the new water taps in the rural villages, and the building of new clinics and new classrooms.

When the hon the President was in our province with this new phase of imbizos, one could see in the faces of those rural people, as they gathered in the Pietersburg stadium, that they had come to say that indeed we are succeeding and making progress. We have also heard their cries of anguish, pain and poverty and, in some instances, even cries of powerlessness, as well as the questions they ask. Sometimes they are ready to swear to what they basically say to us. For instance, there was a case at Mafefe village where we had an imbizo as the provincial executive council. We happened to have bottled water with us. One of the people said we could not drink the water from the bottle, but had to drink the same water they did. That again thus indicates the difficulties on the road we must still negotiate together with our people.

We are part of the multipurpose communication centres that we are creating in our country today. In some of the provinces we have one-stop centres. Sometimes we are guided by the people themselves, like in Kgauthwane in the Northern Province, where, in the desert of poverty and nothingness, people built bridges of hope, and the Government joined them. The example of direct interaction between Government and citizens is one that would accelerate change in our country in an unprecedented manner. We, like other colleagues in other provinces, do attend imbizos fortnightly to exchange ideas, views, to have a dialogue, to listen and to hear, and sometimes to rectify when the means are available.

Two districts in the Northern Province were identified as nodal points for the implementation of the first phase of the ISRDs, namely, the Eastern district of Sekhukhune, which is also a cross-boundary with Mpumalanga and Bushbuckridge. We launched the programmes in June this year as part of our broader growth and development strategy and, in launching this, we held two regional summits in each of the six districts in our province. So, as we emphasise our nodal points, we spread our wings across the province into all six districts. These summits brought together all three spheres of government, as well as parastatals, the business sector and community-based organisations. They provided us with a unique opportunity to look at our districts with fresh perspectives, to recognise our potential and our challenges, and to plan together as communal owners of the future that we are busy constructing.

We are pleased to report that this exercise has been a significant success and that we are already reaping some of the benefits. All those who participated in this summit were of one mind in saying we need a co- ordinated approach, integrated plans and coherent strategies, and that each would have a role to play. We have already held two very successful provincial growth and development summits which were attended by national departments, parastatals, the business sectors, civic society and the churches. This has been the foundation on which we have gone out to roll out the plan into the six districts.

Having planned together and having produced a growth and development strategy we went further to create an organ called the development oversight committee, a body comprising representatives from Government, the private sector and civil society. Through this committee, stakeholders do make direct inputs on economic and social priorities and monitor Government activities in a comprehensive way at a strategic level.

We think that the future of our people cannot wait and that we must enable them to create it themselves. It is with this in mind that, following the national development plans of the country, we engaged our colleagues in Mozambique in the Gaza province, and also in the three provinces of Matebeleng South, Matebeleng North and Masvingo, so that the peace pacts that we are building today become part and parcel of our own approach to a people-driven and sustainable society.

We are greatly encouraged by the great Limpopo peace pact that has just recently been inaugurated, and we believe that it will give much impetus to our efforts to confront the high levels of unemployment in the three countries that are involved and in our province specifically.

We are currently mopping up in terms of the devastation that was visited upon us by the floods of a few years ago. This affords us an opportunity now to begin to shift resources not only to recover infrastructure, but to build new infrastructure.

I wish to take this opportunity, before I resume my seat, to congratulate the Acting Premier of the Western Cape, albeit that he will be in office for a short while. [Applause.]

Mr R M NYAKANE: Chairperson, it gives me great pleasure to be given this opportunity to respond to the hon the President’s address.

The Northern Province comprises 5,3 million people, 59% of whom live in poverty, and 90% of these people live in the rural areas. Our province is plagued by problems which are, inter alia, superstition, anomalous sexual practices, a high rate of unemployment, and the struggle to recover from the flood disaster which wiped out almost all the infrastrucuture network during 1998-99.

We have cases of incest and bestiality, and murders of the aged on the grounds of witchcraft are part of the day-to-day problems the province grapples to contain. It is against this background that all political parties in the Northern Province will have to seriously consider and put a high premium on the unity of purpose.

It serves no purpose for a housewife to damage her spouse’s vehicle on account of anger, because by doing so she risks her absence for several months from the hair salon and grocery shops. This is also the case with those political parties which take great delight in criticising those that are committed to the betterment of people’s lives.

Problems that befell our province have affected all the people, cutting across party-political lines. It is for this reason that the unity-of- purpose approach is of the utmost importance. Constituency programmes should not be utilised for pursuing party-political interests, but rather public representatives should get time to interact with community-based organisations, such as commodity groups, farmers’ unions, women’s forums, you name it, for the purpose of the interchange of information.

The hon the President will recall that during the recent joint sitting an hon member from the National Assembly criticised our country for having deployed our troops to Burundi. His response was that South Africa had done so because of its commitment to the maintenance of peace within SADC states and on the African continent as a whole. This response demonstrated a classic element of ubuntu. The Zulu adage goes as follows: Inxeba le ndoda alihlekwa. [You do not make a joke about another person’s misery.]

I am giving this observation in view of the refugee problem around Messina in my area, the Northern Province. Close to a thousand illegal refugees from Zimbabwe have secured jobs on the farms in that area. It was not of their own making that they found themselves there. Hunger pushed them to where they are today. Yes, this is definitely a problem that needs to be resolved. While we allow the law of our country to take its course, the doctrine of ubuntu should, however, prevail.

May I commend the hon the President for the wise words he uttered in the UN General Assembly recently on matters related to terrorism, which are as follows:

… we must act together to determine the issues that drive people to resort to force and agree on what we should do to eliminate these. At the same time, we must make the point patently clear that such determination does not in any way constitute an attempt to justify terrorism. Together we must take the firm position that no circumstances whatsoever can ever justify resorts to terrorism.

I would like to say to the President that he must never think that the good work that he does outside passes unnoticed by some of us. In conclusion, I would like to leave these words with the President: Sterkte vorentoe, mnr die President. [All the best for the future, Mr President.] [Applause.]

The PREMIER OF THE NORTHERN CAPE (Mr E M Dipico): Chairperson, hon President and hon members, we meet for this important debate, the review of 2001, towards the end of the year and the beginning of the festive season.

During this period of the year, people from all walks of life will take time off to be with their loved ones, but our message today is very simple and straightforward because it is during this time of year that we need to reaffirm the important message of preserving the lives of our people, so we say ``Arrive alive. Do not drink and drive.’’

The debate of the review of 2001 comes at a time when we in the Northern Cape province have met with ordinary people throughout the imbizo activities, which were held throughout the province this week. We deployed all our MECs and MPLs throughout the province to listen, get direction and to respond to the needs of our people.

We also ensured that councillors and the national departments which have offices in the province participated. This strengthens our continuous programme, ``cabinet meets the people’’, a very persistent programme. This year we dedicated the whole programme to the rural areas. Every second week on a Wednesday we take the whole cabinet and HODs to the far-flung areas. Last month we went to Loeriesfontein and Sanddrift, and next week we will be visiting Longlands.

Two years ago we listened to the people of Longlands and launched projects for housing, sanitation, water and electricity in that rural area. Now we are going back to take stock of how far these projects have developed, how many people have been employed and how they have impacted on the lives of the people. We will further engage in talks with our people to get direction from them on how to strengthen them in order to make their lives much better. The elections of 2001 strengthened us. We insist that our councillors take their cue from cabinet and be led by mayors to conduct ``council meets the people’’ meetings. They should go to the rural areas and wards on a weekly basis as a collective to listen and respond to the pressing needs of our people.

When we go to these areas with cabinet meets the people'', we take them along. Sometimes some of them are embarrassed, because they are not involved incouncil meets the people’’, and the people expose them by telling us that the last time they saw them was when they campaigned in those areas. We then take a strong stand against them in front of the people. We tell them that we will not allow such things to happen, and inform the people about how to act against leaders who do not respond to their needs.

We have also embarked on a very important and innovative project for MPLs. They, too, collectively go around the province on oversight visits. This project is led by the speaker and her team. They have to ensure that the reports received by the legislative committees are a true reflection of what is taking place. They have to go and find out if those things are really happening, because they get all the reports on education, infrastructure and so forth. They go to the specific areas and also write reports which they present to the legislature for debate. These reports expose MECs and other individuals if they are not consistent. It works for us, because it keeps all of us on our toes and encourages us never to lie and bring false reports to the legislature. It is indeed a programme that works well.

We have rolled out a number of one-stop centres in rural areas, and for us this has been a continuous project. Being aware of limited resources, we do not go crying to the national Government. We went out and roped in the private sector. Only last week the former president visited us with people from the private sector to launch a new R7 million one-stop centre.

These are people who own vast sums of money in the province. They make wine which makes our people drunk. Our people ``suip’’ [druk] too much, and we are saying that they must plough back into the community. We asked one company, Gilbey’s, to plough back into the community. We asked them what they were doing to promote the moral regeneration of our people and their moral fibre, and to build unity in these families since they have destroyed families with their cheap wines. There are so many grapes all over the place and in every corner, and our people make a lot of concoctions. With only bread and water people make concoctions. [Laughter.] That is why the problem is so serious in our province. This is no joke; it is a serious problem. We told them that they should play a role.

We have launched another project in Colesberg. The people of this town have to travel 240km to De Aar to get a death certificate, because they cannot bury their dead before they have that certificate. They cannot register the births of their children, and for that they have to go to De Aar. The poorest of the poor who cannot even pay for a coffin have to travel that distance in order to get assistance. They also have to go there for driver’s licences and marriage certificates, and that is why they do not get married. Ngoomasihlalisane [These are people who cohabit]. [Laughter.]

It is very difficult. They have to spend money to go and collect a marriage certificate. The Department of Labour, where people go to find jobs, is also in De Aar.

We now have a very good one-stop service centre which services the needs of the people. People no longer have to travel to De Aar because they can get all the services from this one multipurpose centre, including the Department of Labour. We have also put up a multipurpose training centre, including telecentres, in order to train the local rural people of Noupoort and Norvalspont in the use of computers, e-mail and the Internet. That is the change that we want to see, and we want our people to appreciate the difference all this is making in their lives.

While we were in Colesberg, we used this opportunity to persuade a former prisoner to go and visit the prisoners. This programme is going on throughout the province. We go and see the inmates, sit with them and talk. We try to find out why they keep getting in and out of prison. We say to them, ``We were wearing green like you, and we were in the same cells you are in now. Mandela is out, there he is, and he is a better person. What are you doing?’’

This has an impact on young people. For the very young people who have lost hope, this programme is starting to change their thinking. I hope all of us will go out there, because these are our children, and we need to change their thinking. [Interjections.]

At these events during which we talk to the people, particularly at the imbizos, ordinary people have reaffirmed their belief in the broad goals and objectives we as Government are undertaking. They share our vision of a nonracial, nonsexist, prosperous and democratic South Africa. This confidence is born out of the fact that, since the dawn of democracy, our country and province have been striving to do everything in their power to realise the goals of a better life for all.

Every year has seen our Government come closer and closer to this goal. The challenges are very daunting, but we have the determination and commitment to bring about fundamental change in this part of our country.

This year, 2001, the year of the African century, is also marked by an even bigger challenge - to realise the interconnectedness of our country and continent. We continue, in earnest, to improve the quality of life of the most disadvantaged people of our province, through, among others, the nodal integrated rural development strategy the President launched. Our province and the North West province have achieved real progress in this regard.

We have also completed a basket of projects which will inform the Galeshewe urban development programme for urban renewal, infrastructure development and job creation opportunities for the unemployed. We are generally upbeat about the recent announcements made by the Minister of Finance, Trevor Manuel, in his Medium-Term Budget Policy Statement. Whereas provinces had over the past years had serious difficulties in managing public finances, over time we have developed and continue to improve on aspects of public finance management. The completion of the appointment of chief financial officers in our province will further stabilise this initiative and enable us to put public resources where they are most required and needed.

We are resolutely committed to dealing poverty and unemployment a decisive blow. We have laid the foundation for optimising this endeavour.

The hideous crimes we see occurring in some parts of our province have, in the main, their source of origin and basis in alcohol abuse. This is one of the biggest problems we have, and I want us to rise here as a collective against that problem. One of the grave consequences of the ``dop’’ system is starting to show its ruthless effect on our people. Families are broken and they have disintegrated.

The Northern Cape and the Western Cape are special cases. We need a very integrated approach to deal with them. It cannot be by welfare or health - we would be missing the point. We need a fully integrated new initiative to bring our people together and see how best we can deal with this problem. We even need to bring the private sector on board throughout our province and in the Western Cape, because that is where the wine industry is located. They should plough back into the community to ensure that we can deal with the problem.

Even in cases where people are healthy and they can work, we find that they are not prepared to work, because they can get the cheapest wine. They have all sorts of names for them, such as Alexandra, and when one goes to Mdantsane, they have a different name, and in Kimberley there is the same thing. But we have seen the results in Upington. It is a very difficult problem, and we need to rise and embark on a campaign which we can unfold together as a country and make a difference.

At this point we want to join many ordinary people and raise our voices higher in the battle against child abuse and rape. It is very serious and it is the most hideous crime ever committed against a fellow human being. We have confidence in the judiciary, and those found to be responsible will be appropriately dealt with.

One of the points which has been highlighted in this regard is that whenever a victim of rape has to identify the culprit, she has to stand there and look the person in the eye, and go and touch the person. One finds that most of the time our women and our young ladies cannot do it, because these are very dangerous people. If such a person were to look at me I would also feel threatened. I could not touch a person tattooed up to his eyes. It would be very difficult. I think a new system of identifying these people and bringing them to book will assist us.

In conclusion, I want to mention two very important examples of improvement of services. One example is in the rural areas where we have been working in partnership with the Red Cross. We go out to a different region every month and give health services to our people. We take eye specialists and other specialists who treat all sorts of diseases to assist those people in the rural areas. The Red Cross has been removing cataracts because that is a big problem in older people.

The other day in Mier in the Kalahari, next to the border of Botswana, the doctors removed cataracts from the eyes of a number of older people. They did one operation on an Ouma [Grandma] Bettie. After completing the whole operation, I went close to the old lady to see whether her operation had been a success. When they took all the dressings from ouma’s eyes, she could see a person in front of her, and she could see light. She stood up and she said: Ek kan dit nie glo nie! Oupa, is dit jy? Oupa, jy is so oulik! Ek het gedink jy is oud! [Gelag.] [I can’t believe it! Oupa (grandfather), is it you? Oupa, you are so cute! I thought you were old! [Laughter.]]

She thought I was her husband. She last saw me'' 15 years ago and, now hereI’’ am looking so handsome. I felt very good when the ouma said I looked nice. Nobody had told me that before. Ouma jumped up and down like a small girl. She said that it was the work of God. She could not see, and God had made her see. She thought that we were the disciples of Jesus Christ. That is how ordinary people saw the difference. That is what makes us move forward and want to do these things all the time.

Another project we have embarked on is to improve the Kimberley Hospital. We took the Minister there the other day when we launched it. The private sector clinics are closing down in Kimberley because of a better service at the provincial hospital. People with medical aid are now going to the hospital, because of a better quality service. All MECs and the premier - all of us - get our service from the hospital. Even my child was born in that hospital. [Laughter.] [Applause.] That is public service, and it is beautiful. If all of us could provide that type of service, we would bring back the dignity of our people.

Lastly, on behalf of all of us I would like to thank the President for the work he has done in keeping us very committed to our people and keeping us in touch with ordinary people, making sure that we always go back and respond to their needs and making sure that we account to them. That is what will really make South Africa work. We thank him very much. He constantly makes us account through the PCC and through these meetings.

I would like to say to Premier Molefe that as he takes over as rotating Deputy Chairperson, we would like to see him presiding. We hope that he will change the NCOP for the better. But if he lacks experience, I am here to assist him, because I was indeed in that position before.

I also want to thank my neighbour, Acting Premier Herandien: Ek wil vir hom sê ons gaan ‘n lang pad loop. [I want to say to him that we are going to walk a long way.]

If he needs any assistance, I am just across the road. He should call me, and I will assist him. [Applause.]

Ms C S BOTHA: Chairperson, hon President, premiers, if ever this House should pass a law on cloning people, my first proposal for a candidate would be the premier of the Northern Cape. [Laughter.]

I hope all present find our subtly developing political language as exciting in sound and image as I do. It is ``lekgotla, bosberaad, Tirisano, Batho Pele, haak, Vrystaat and imbizo.’’ These unfamiliar sounds are gathering a deep and comforting resonance. It is happening in this Council, and it is happening outside. We are already a world in one country, and now, frequently, speaking with one voice, even if it is in many languages.

While poverty everywhere remains palpable, and disparities glaring and glowing, nevertheless, the Government spent time this week on the Imbizo Focus Week, during which it went to places, at least in the Free State, such as the Xhariep Distict Council, Zamdela near Sasolburg, Kroonstad or Moqhaka municipality where a previous member of this Council is now mayor, and met with Mr Ndema, the ever-obliging representative of the Free State home affairs department, or spent time at the place of much water, Metsimaholo, or spoke in Jacobsdal or visited community projects in Villiers daar in die Noord-Oos Vrystaat [in the Northeast Free State]. Those visits will reveal reality and not political mirage, as all who have gone this route have humbly experienced.

I believe the President himself will be visiting Qwaqwa, and I know he has already acted against the councillors of the former Phuthaditjhaba council in Qwaqwa who voted themselves a cosy three quarters of a million rand bonus just before the 1999 election. The magnitude of such mercenary behaviour becomes even more appalling when viewed against the backdrop of that particular community, which is suffering an unemployment rate of about 88%, and of whom 75% are purportedly chronically hungry.

I hope the President’s actions against these councillors will challenge all who are in positions of power that they should be focusing on service to the community, and not to themselves, and that his visit will guide them to confront the major unresolved problems in our society.

But even if there are enough problems in the Free State alone to occupy him full time - and the premier should please listen - would he please not give a special thought to Adeline Meje Primary School in Viljoenskroon, which he will not be visiting, but which has 1 000 hard-working, well-disciplined learners and dedicated staff and who are asking nothing more than a single computer with which to do their administrative work? I beg him.

The people of this country will travel with the President on the highways and the byways to which his imbizos take him. But when he stops a moment along a little stream to reflect on other things, such as the recent developments between the ANC and another party with whom we in the DP have recently had a fleeting acquaintance, he should please remember this friendly piece of advice: Do not believe that every frog you kiss will turn into a prince! [Laughter.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr M L Mushwana): Order! Perhaps it is fitting now to ask the reverend to address this House.

Father S MKHATSHWA (Salga): Chairperson, hon President and hon members, I thank the Council for the platform that has been accorded to us as the SA Local Government Association, Salga, to share some of our views with the House. The President and some of the hon members have touched upon some of the pertinent issues regarding local government. I want to tell the President that we support the imbizo initiative most enthusiastically. In fact, some of the local authorities have ensured that the other social sectors that do not normally attend community meetings also are not left out of this wonderful process. The hon the President’s intellectual, business, church and religious organisations, as well as youth and women’s organisations, are also in the process of interacting with many local authorities.

Now, as the House knows, this is the first time I address this House in my capacity as the chairperson of Salga, and I would like to thank the hon Deputy Chairperson for the wonderful things and words of encouragement he said regarding Salga. I feel truly honoured and would like to use this opportunity to say hello and take the chance to introduce our understanding of some of the local government issues.

I would like to focus on an aspect which has a bearing on the overall situation of local government vis-à-vis our communities. I speak of local economic development, the impact of which, from a job creation perspective, is felt in the servicing of water, lights and refuse collection accounts by our residents and businesses, and therefore affects the long-term sustainability of our towns, villages and cities.

We address the House today as local governments which have responded to the obligation of providing water, electricity and refuse removal services to our people. We have turned Government’s promise of a basic amount of free water and electricity into reality where infrastructure exists. Where no infrastructure is currently in place, and there are still such places, unfortunately, we are proceeding apace with plans to bring this into being. What I am saying is that we have met our obligations with regard to our mandate of providing services to all our communities to the best of our ability.

One of the fundamental changes brought about by the new local government dispensation has been the enhancement of local government from being a mere provider of water, electricity and refuse removal services into a sphere truly complementary to the national and provincial spheres of government. This is particularly the case with regard to economic development. We have come to realise that economic development begins at the microlevel of local government, and that decisions with regard to such matters as business and land allocations, for example, have to be made against the background of the number of jobs to be created and what new real investments are involved.

Reinforcing local government in this way to include economic development necessarily has material implications for municipalities. These implications are both human and financial. On the human front, it is the question of human resource capacity that arises, while on the financial front the challenge is mainly to ensure that local infrastructure becomes attractive to potential investors, be they domestic or foreign. In looking for investment destinations, as we know, business looks for much more than just land or a building. It is thus critical that municipalities invest in their own development as much as they ask for business to invest in them.

A particular challenge in this regard is a suite of management skills straddling general management, human resource management, project management and, most importantly, financial management. This is a complex set of skills whose aggregate is a prerequisite for the successful operation of modern metros. They are mandatory for the management of budgets of billions, and infrastructure upon which regional economies are becoming increasingly dependent. They are compulsory in an environment where the metros collectively account for 80% of the country’s gross domestic product.

I emphasise the point less to hype the importance of the new local government system and more to highlight the high-level corporate-style skills that we now require to run our megacities. I stress the point in order to underline the financial challenges we have to overcome as part of our redirection of municipalities. The skills I have catalogued are priced at a premium, especially in an environment where, traditionally, education has been more humanities based than commercially inclined. We begin our new system as a country, therefore, with an obligation to invest more in the short to medium term than we might gain in the long term and that we might gain in our effort to provide these services. In the longer term, though, our investment will result in municipalities about which investors feel confident, and therefore in jobs and our strategic objective of the reduction of poverty.

Also critical is investment in the infrastructure of our towns, villages and cities. Without necessarily gentrifying our cities, in the sense of right-wing tendencies, we have to rehabilitate moribund infrastructure, reconstruct buildings that have gone to rack and ruin, end shantytowns and develop commercially attractive land. These, too, are financially demanding, both in terms of the human resource expertise necessary to manage them as well as in the money needed to secure the material resources to realise them.

We begin our existence in our new form without enough resources to meet the development obligations I have referred to. Some district councils, for example, are on the verge of dysfunctionality, even though they are doing their best to continue providing services. We are hamstrung by limited human and financial capacity. It is thus important that we alert national and provincial governments about the need for a careful evaluation of our situation so that we may better add value to the economic development that we have been witness to in this country over the past six years. We see ourselves giving practical expression, at the intimate level on the ground, to national and provincial governments’ continuous economic empowerment of our communities. We believe that the success or failure of socioeconomic reconstruction initiatives, such as the African Renaissance and the Millennium Africa Recovery Programme, will ultimately be determined by the extent to which people’s daily lives, at local level, improve or worsen.

It is a task fraught with challenges as factors such as globalisation conspire to undermine those economies lacking the fundamentals to compete against the developed world. All the more reason, then, for us to do all we can to exploit our potential to contribute to the economic competitiveness of our cities, provinces and therefore of South Africa as a whole. In this regard, we have to explore possibilities of tax holidays at the local level, nominal fees for land for business ventures guaranteed to provide meaningful and sustainable numbers of job opportunities, labour-intensive municipal projects and empowerment approaches to tender allocations, among many options. We have to partner our provinces in the practical implementation of provincial economic development initiatives and in the creation of environments conducive to investment.

As Salga we are committed to co-ordinating the efforts of our municipalities to build capacity, share constructive experiences, exploit synergies, synchronise common and mutually beneficial initiatives and provide a single platform for interaction with national and provincial governments, the private sector, nongovernmental organisations, community- based organisations, civil society and, above all, the NCOP.

We are committed to the principles of developmental local government and the practice of governance with integrity and financial accounting standards in line with Government’s stated objectives and legislation in this regard. We have set ourselves the task of managing local government transformation in a way which balances access and equity issues with professional performance and quality assurance and maintenance.

In our interaction with other tiers of Government we have already seen the kind of concern and commitment that we expect in order for us to succeed. A co-operative and interactive style of government is very important. I would like to suggest that no Minister, premier, MEC or executive mayor should be regarded as a special guest or VIP whenever they visit whatever part of South Africa, for the simple reason that their visit should be the norm, not an exception.

Salga is the mirror with which people see and judge the performance of President Thabo Mbeki’s Government. Salga rubs shoulders with 44 million South Africans who applaud or criticise Government by the way local government serves the people from Monday to Monday, January to January, 24 hours around the clock.

On 11 September the role of local government administration in the USA ably demonstrated its importance. Giulioni, the mayor, was the only visible face of the US government to deal with a very serious crisis. When there are no schools, no clinics, no ambulances, no jobs, no houses, and where there is crime, poverty, the disabled and rape of a nine-month old babies by adult criminals, people turn their attention to local authorities. There is no use in telling them about provincial or national competencies, hence the need for us to work together in the way in which the President has emphasized. Of course, one could also provide them with the telephone number of Premier Stofile, but they would not be very impressed. When they see us, they see the Government of the country. [Applause.] Mr K D S DURR: Chairperson, during the President’s imbizo visit to the Western Cape on 12 September, he opened the Phillipi Training College for municipal police in our province, the first of its kind in South Africa. The President will be pleased to know that some 400 recruits will finish their training on 13 December and will be ready for deployment during the holiday period in Cape Town.

We also valued his personal visit with the premier of our province to the flood-stricken areas, which was a time of trial for us, and the help we got at the time. We are grateful for that.

We have all embarked upon the ideal of building our country, our provinces, our nation and our continent. What role does politics play in this regard, since we are politicians? At present many people in our country are confused - certainly in my province.

The young Jan Smuts - his greatness still in the future - once confessed to the then Cape Prime Minister John X Merriman, who sat in this House, in an uncharacteristic mood of despair, that he felt like dropping out of politics altogether. He said, and I quote:

Perhaps at the bottom I do not believe in politics at all as a means for the attainment of the highest ends.

The older and wiser John X Merriman gently reproved him and replied:

Surely … politics is not the means. It is in itself the highest end, but not the politics centering on the dreary wrangles of the ins and outs, but politics aimed at making a small city great, and at raising the whole life and character of every class in the community. There can be no higher ambition nor any more worthy object.

That remains so today when we are acting at our best. So is the President’s new Africa initiative - a great vision, if I may say so. I would like to say something about the provincial dimension of that vision.

Seven of our provinces have African neighbours. Other are linked by airfields and ports, and they have a role to play. We have already seen - this is not something that is in the future - dramatic and far-reaching co- operation between Mpumalanga and Mozambique with the new peace parks; the Maputo Corridor and the international award-winning, multibillion Mozal development at Maputo, completed six months ahead of time and at R100 million below budget. We can do it.

The new peace parks initiative, which that hon member mentioned, including the Great Limpopo Transfrontier Park, is the greatest step taken, perhaps for a hundred years, in conservation and regional co-operation. It involves six national governments, five provincial governments, NGOs, the private sector and the international community and the benefits will be far- reaching for us all.

We need a new vision. The King James Version of the Book of Proverbs says: Where there is no vision, the people perish. We need to elevate and ennoble our politics, and our provinces need to find ways and means of making their contribution to the process.

In one of the documents I read, the President speaks of a new kind of leadership required in Africa, and he is right. We need clear vision, hard work, dogged perseverance, iron discipline, confidence, faith in our cause and servant leadership. But we also need to be men of action. Thomas Edison defined genius as 1% inspiration and 99% perspiration. We also need a sense of service. One thing I miss about the bad old days - not everything was bad in the bad old days - is that civil servants signed their letters ``your obedient servant’’. We need to cultivate a sense of service and servant leadership. We share the President’s great vision. [Applause.]

Ms J L KGOALI: Chairperson, His Excellency Comrade President Mbeki, premiers, hon members, distinguished guests and colleagues, at times one is persuaded not to respond to some of the people who normally do things in this House in the manner in which they do them. The hon Durr should know that it is about time that we showed respect to the leadership of this country. As a Christian, talking to the hon the President with one’s hand in one’s pocket is disgusting. [Interjections.] [Laughter.]

Nevertheless, many reasons are put forward to explain why unemployment, poverty and communicable diseases persist in our country. One does not need the wisdom of Solomon of old to figure out why. Not all the reasons have to do with the capabilities of our people; many have to do with the unequal distribution of productive assets in our society and the legacy of apartheid.

The poor have very few resources to muster. Indeed, many have only their labour. Unfortunately, we have men and women in the opposition benches in this House who have since the last general elections demonstrated an aversion to the work and efforts of our Government to rebuild and unite our beloved country.

We as the majority party in this august House of Parliament do not need to be convinced that the President’s vision and that of the collective leadership of Government remains, for South Africa and all its people, a nation at work for a better life for all. It is indeed a noble vision.

Re thoholetsa Mookamedi wa rona. Re re ke mohale, ke moetapele ya bontshitseng lefatshe ka bophara boetapele ba hae. Re a mo hlompha ntata rona. [We praise our President. We say that he is a hero, a leader who showed the whole world his leadership skills. We respect him, our father.]

It is therefore paramount that we continue to scrutinise the policies and programmes that were put in place by Government, and the positive results yielded by them. It is indeed satisfying to know that these programmes and results transcend every sphere of government and society.

As a sphere of government ideally and uniquely placed, the National Council of Provinces’ role in oversight is to draw provincial and local experience into the national debate when the effectiveness of these policies and their implementation are considered. I am, in fact, glad to announce that this is what is happening here today as we are gathered from all the nine provinces, including from local government. We are, at the same time, drawing provincial governments and local government together into a single forum. The NCOP permits sharing of experience and ideas among provinces and the local government.

We are indeed fortunate to share with Comrade President in the celebration of transformation and improvement in the living conditions and environment of the masses of our country.

Two such programmes of major significance, which have been identified by the hon the President, are the Integrated Sustainable Rural Development Strategy and the integrated Urban Renewal Programme of which the objective is to conduct a sustained programme against rural and urban poverty, and underdevelopment. These programmes, as I speak, are on course and will drastically reduce poverty in rural and urban areas.

The Urban Renewal Programme has been started, the project to which the President allocated R1,3 billion. The President launched it himself in Alexandra. Its first draft has been completed and is based upon the findings of a comprehensive environmental strategy assessment, on transportation and aerial photography.

A total of 10 precincts have been identified in Alexandra. Tenders have been placed for the appointment of the first three precinct managers in that area. A total of 7 064 informal structures have been relocated out of the dangerous circumstances within the flood plain of the Jukskei River. Of these, 4 251 households have been removed to Diepsloot and 1 025 have been relocated to Braamfisherville.

In addition, 200 formal structures, which were near the river bank, are being removed and are currently being relocated in the Extension 8 housing project. They are being removed because they were actually sinking into the river bank.

The Jukskei River itself has been extensively cleaned. Its banks have been stabilised and consolidated, and grass planting has commenced. Also, the construction of the Alexandra Police Station is proceeding well and should be completed in the coming months.

In terms of economic and social development, Alexandra’s preferential procurement framework has been activated. To date, over 10 000 persons are employed. Moreover, partnerships are being forged between the projects and surrounding commercial, industrial and retail areas to stabilise business through the establishment of business improvement districts.

What is also of major significance is the launching of the targeted immunisation campaign, which focuses on young children as part of a broader health awareness programme. This is a sterling effort, indeed. In addition, rural development programmes have been launched at Mzinyathi, KwaMashu, Inanda and in KwaZulu-Natal in line with Government’s Integrated Sustainable Rural Development Strategy.

One has heard on radio and seen on TV women from Mzinyathi celebrating the projects that they have been given. Just to be provided with clean water is something that excites our people. What is significant is that the community has been actively participating - the community of Mzinyathi - in the whole programme that has been put together and where one saw the Deputy President, together with the Minister of Water Affairs and Forestry, participating in what the hon Durr called the imbizos. [Time expired.] [Applause.]

The ACTING PREMIER OF KWAZULU-NATAL (Mr N J Ngubane): Madam Chair, hon President and hon members, I think first and foremost let me take my cue from those colleagues who congratulated the hon Premier Molefe on his appointment as the Rotating Chairperson of our NCOP. KwaZulu-Natal is saying: ``Congratulations, my brother.’’

This debate offers an opportunity to take stock of governance across the country and the role of provinces. Two questions arise, which are linked, but not the same. Firstly: What have the provinces done to implement actions decided at national level? Secondly: What have provinces done to promote governance through their own initiatives?

We need to determine whether this debate is about assessing how well provinces have fulfilled national mandates and expectations, or whether it is about assessing the overall functions of provinces. It is fitting for our hon President to reflect on how the system of provincial government works. However, in the final analysis, each province must respond to and account for its actions, for its delivery and for its achievements on behalf of the people it serves.

My province is particularly this way inclined, because we believe that accountability to our voters is the most important element of good governance. Our premier has begun an extensive programme of consultation with the people of KwaZulu-Natal, not only to report on what the province has achieved, but also to hear what their complaints are about our shortcomings as a province and to get the full measure of their needs and aspirations.

This programme has run under the name: ``The government goes to the people.’’ This is a constant form of dialogue between our government and the people we serve, which cuts across all functional lines. The outcome of this dialogue is the constant flow of information, which will increasingly enable our province to fine-tune its policies and define the direction of its future course of action.

We place emphasis on this dialogue because we believe it to be the best way of promoting better governance. However, the flip side of this approach is that our policies will be those which emerge from our response to the needs of our people, rather than those which we feel compelled to perform and implement in response to pressure from national departments and to meet the expectations of the national Government.

We are an elected government, tasked by the expectations of our electorate and the Constitution to read and address the needs of the people we serve. This function is essential, continuous, detailed and systematic. It cannot be replaced by flying visits to our province by some national Ministers who may, from time to time, organise collective meetings on specific subject matters.

This is not to detract from the value of these meetings which have taken place during this year, but to highlight that their function can only be that of supporting the initiatives that provinces intend to undertake, rather than directing or dictating what provinces are to do. In fact, if national Ministers were in a position to determine what needs to be done by virtue of a few days spent in each province, it would mean that provinces are incapable of fulfilling their role. It would be a vote of no confidence in provinces’ capacity for understanding, acting and reacting as our people expect.

I also wish to highlight the need to strengthen intergovernmental co- ordination, not only on the vertical basis but on the horizontal basis as well. The vertical relationship between the national and provincial levels of government should be strengthened by asserting the equal dignity and responsibility of its two partners. It cannot be a one-way relationship of the national sphere of government directing provinces and seeking to guide them.

To strengthen our system of government by enhancing the role of provinces, we need to bring about a paradigm shift in which we finally accept that it should be up to provinces to guide and direct the central Government in all matters of provincial competence. If they were really performing their constitutional task, provinces would know and do better, and therefore be in a position to advise the central Government accordingly. Admittedly, we are far from having reached that point, especially because of a lack of capacity in policy analysis and formulations which affect most of our provinces.

However, we need to start moving in that direction, and the national Government should cast its relationship with provinces in the mould of assistance, enabling us to do more and better by ourselves, not for our own sake but for the sake of the people we serve. By enabling us to do more and better by ourselves, in the final analysis the central Government will better serve our common constituency.

In respect of the horizontal relationship amongst provinces, not enough has been done to promote this. There are not enough contacts between provinces, and sufficient co-ordination between each of their line functions. Such co- ordination should be promoted at the initiative of provinces and without always resorting to the national Government. We cannot blame the national Government for these shortcomings, which are unfortunately the fault of provinces’ own lack of initiative.

I hope that, in the new year, new provincial initiatives will develop through horizontal intergovernmental co-operation, and that provinces will have greater exchanges so as to focus on how they can best respond to the identified needs of their people. This will enable provinces to differentiate their actions, which is necessary if we are to be responsive to what people want, and obviously that cannot be done through a uniform national solution, unless one thinks that all our people want the same things, which would make it unnecessary to consult them on a nationwide basis.

For instance, our province is very concerned about the issue of traditional leadership, which still remains unsolved, and is undermining the effectiveness of governance and our developmental efforts at local level. Our powers in this respect are limited, but we know that finding a solution can no longer wait. We understand that perhaps it is much less urgent for other provinces to deal with this issue, as it may be less relevant in their context.

Other provinces may also be less interested in dealing with rural development, as they are more urbanised. In our province, rural development and upliftment is an imperative from which we may not escape. Indeed, this is a vocational commitment which our Government has made. It reflects on who we are and what we have promised our electorate. It is that for which we feel accountable to our people, the great majority in rural areas who are in a situation of underdevelopment.

Izimbizo were quite successful in KwaZulu-Natal, with our support as traditional leaders. We recognise that not enough has been done in the past to unleash the developmental potential in the rural areas. We have launched many programmes, and we will launch many more. Our poverty alleviation programmes are making some inroads, but more needs to be done. We need to be able to do more and deal with issues such as traditional leadership, which, if unresolved in spite of many promises made, will spell some disaster for the whole of our country.

I also need to express concerns regarding the draft legislation tabled in the Portfolio Committee on Justice to amend Schedule 2 of the Constitution in order to scrap the antidefection clause. This will have an impact on the composition of provincial legislatures. This major change in our constitutional system came as a bolt from the blue, without prior consultations and negotiations, especially with provinces.

One sphere of government is changing the rules of operation of other spheres without even consulting them. This seems to be done to accommodate specific political needs arising at this specific time between two specific political parties pursuing a specific political agenda in one specific province. We wonder whether constitutionalism and the rule of law are really promoted by amending the Constitution merely to pursue such specific political expediency.

From a principled viewpoint, one must decide whether the antidefection clause is good, in which case it should stay, no matter how inconvenient or expedient it may be for some of the players, or whether it is bad, in which case it should be eliminated for ever. We are concerned about it being lifted only for an unspecified period of time to be determined by the hon the President at a later time, and possibly not for many times, as the President wishes to, even selectively, in respect of some but not all legislatures.

The antidefection clause could be lifted for few a hours, a few days or a few months here but not there, or once-off, whether it is right or wrong - no one is to know beforehand. If there is a matter of principle behind the political expedience, then the antidefection clause should be abolished for ever.

We are concerned about the rules being amended after some of the players have decided how they are going to play the game. We are also concerned about continuing the practice that the Constitution may be amended to change the rules of the game time and again by a simple majority rather than through the usual reinforced majority. Moreover, the actual content of the amendment is defined by presidential proclamations. There must be rules, even in changing the rules, and here it seems that rules will be made as required and expedient from time to time. We must improve the system of government to make it stronger and better. Good governance can only take place in a system in which the rule of man can finally be replaced by the rule of law, so that all can play by the rules and be subject to them.

Our province is committed to the type of democracy that we entrenched in our Constitution. [Time expired.] [Applause.]

The PREMIER OF MPUMALANGA (Mr N J Mahlangu): Madam Chairperson, hon President, hon premiers and hon members, our congratulations go to hon Premier Molefe on being elected as Rotating Deputy Chairperson. We do not need to lecture the premier on what is expected of him, because the Constitution is there and he is an old horse at this job.

In the past 10 months we travelled the length and breadth of our province, talking to and working with our people. During our daily contact with the people, we listened and learnt from them. We did this through our community outreach programme and through imbizos.

In that way we were able to touch base with almost every village and town of our municipalities in the province. What struck us most was the keenness of the majority of our people to be part of the process of rebuilding the country, a process that will guarantee a better life for all.

That keenness, that willingness to participate in the construction of our province and our country, places a profound obligation on the shoulders of each one of us, particularly the elected representatives of the people. It also places an obligation and responsibility on the private sector, organised business, the labour movement, the religious fraternity, teachers, parents, farmers, in fact, all of us.

When we spoke to our people earlier this year, we told them that all our joint and shared activities would be driven by a desire to lift everyone out of poverty. We also told them how far we have gone in getting communities involved in becoming masters of their own fate.

As the Mpumalanga provincial government, we have always said we are committed to engaging citizen voices in local, regional and provincial governance in new ways. We realised early in our interaction with the communities that honesty was essential to break through the citizens’ distrust of institutions. As we listened and interacted with people from every walk of life and in vastly different circumstances, we heard constant themes over time of what supported people being involved and what the barriers were to people being involved in the community’s work. The common voice in all the communities we visited indicated an overwhelming desire to be lifted out of poverty. Through the dedication and co-operation of members of the Mpumalanga provincial government, in partnership with business and working closely with the community, we ensured that more than 250 000 people are active beneficiaries of social grants, as at 31 March 2001.

During the same period, the number of child support grant beneficiaries stood at 69 792. The monthly average uptake rate in respect of the child support grant is more than 5 000 children. Social development projects are implemented in a co-ordinated manner, with all relevant departments and stakeholders participating.

This concept is being cultivated vigorously through the social cluster of the executive council, in which the district mayors and the executive mayors of our four strategic towns are participating.

The community-based Public Works programme is a specific job creation and poverty alleviation programme targeted primarily at the rural poor. Our objective is to create short and long-term employment, sustainable public assets and provide accredited training to communities in the poverty pockets of the province.

The programme’s budget of R6,2 million was used to fund five cluster projects in the three districts of the province. In the Ehlanzeni district the communities of Shabalala next to Hazyview constructed a multipurpose centre, a community garden and market stalls, including two poultry houses, for an amount of R1,4 million. In the Eastvaal district the community of Perdekop received R1,4 million to construct a sports stadium, five poultry houses and a community garden.

The community of Davel decided to use R1,2 million to construct a sports facility that included tennis and basketball courts. In the Nkangala district the community of Vaalbank constructed six poultry houses valued at R740 000. In Kameelrivier an existing sports stadium was upgraded for R1,5 million. During the construction of all the projects 480 people, among them 197 women, were employed and 209 people were trained.

We are also happy to announce that the MEC for public works, roads and transport recently launched a multimillion rand project to upgrade the Moloto Road. The Moloto Road, members will remember, has been dubbed the ``killer road’’ of the province, if not the country. We plan to build this road in three phases. We have put aside R61 million for the current phase. It is our firm belief that the project will result in the employment of a number of people. The number of people employed will increase at a very late stage of the project.

Our target of providing 20 000 housing units is within grasp. More than 7 000 new houses have been built and handed over to beneficiaries. Seven thousand houses have had their ownership transferred through the discount benefit scheme. More than 1 400 housing units are under construction, and over 3 000 are being processed for board approval.

In our recent fortnight outreach programme in Daantjie and Msogwaba, we could see the smiles on the faces of people as they took ownership of the new tarred roads we were launching. We still hear their voices as they say thank you for what has been done, and continues to be done in improving their lives.

In the past week we launched the Daantjie and Luphisi Road, phase two of the Daantjie-Goboza Road in the Mbombela municipal area. In attendance at the imbizos held afterwards were communities of Daantjie, Msogwaba, Spelenyane, the Tekwane and Karino farms, Ka-Nyamazane and Matsulu A. If that is anything to go by, then we are convinced that we are indeed in touch with our people.

May I also mention that amongst the things we did with the community in the past week was to discuss the plight of farm dwellers and farmworkers in the province, to hand over funds for disaster relief in the Volkrust area and to launch indigenous games at Embalenhle. These were part of the imbizo programme during this past week. Throughout the week the provincial health department took its health awareness programme to the schools, while the provincial social service department held a successful national Children’s Day celebration at the Mbuzini Stadium.

More pregnant women in the province now have access to maternal health care through the clinics we built in deep rural areas, like Mmamethlake, Lefiso, Kabokweni, Phake, Verena and Daggakraal.

One of the key challenges in the education sector was the restoration of public confidence in the integrity of our matric results. I can say with confidence that this objective has been successfully realised. That is why it was relatively easy to root out the person who tried to cook the outcome of this year’s results. We have completed a number of new schools, new classrooms, new administration blocks and toilets.

More than 160 poverty alleviation projects are up and running this year. As the provincial government, we continue to place high on the agenda the task of ensuring that all of us act together to achieve a high and sustained rate of growth in our economy.

A co-ordinated approach between the provincial government and municipalities in Mpumalanga is starting to bear dividends. Once a month we have our three executive council clusters sitting, with all district mayors and executive mayors of our four strategic towns. At that meeting members of the executives of the three clusters discuss project planning and other matters of common interest with the municipal councillors.

These meetings are preceded by technical cluster meetings consisting of municipal managers and heads of provincial departments under the leadership of the provincial director-general. These technical cluster meetings prepare for the political cluster referred to. We remain convinced that it is only through the creation of a close partnership between the public and private sector that we can have a growth path that absorbs labour, reduces inequality, and promotes international competitiveness accompanied by a process of empowerment.

We are developing the tourism industry so as to create more jobs. We initiated, assisted and supported the development of 21 new tourism projects. Ten of these are up and running, while the rest will follow suit in the new financial year. Nine existing tourism projects were supported and enhanced. These projects have led to the creation of 94 permanent and 582 temporary jobs.

In order to explore the opportunities offered by the global trade strategy, the relevant department launched the SME export strategy together with a provincial export forum and regional forums. More than 31 potential exporters were assisted.

The Mpumalanga investment initiative established a vehicle for assisting the business sector, especially small business, to access the international market. Through our assistance, two individual emerging entrepreneurs from the black community managed to secure lucrative export contracts. One secured an export contract with the Namibian government to supply field stoves, and provide repairs and maintenance of military machines and vehicles, while the other secured and export contract for leather products.

On the mining front, we have facilitated the establishment of eight manufacturing businesses to the value of R32,4 million and three acquisitions and/or mergers between foreign and local companies to the value of R195 million. Five projects to the value of R20 million are currently in the process of being established in the province.

Regarding HIV/Aids projects, we are on course. Our Aids ambassadors are hard at work. We have also planned school transport for farm areas which will cover the whole province, and we plan that by the beginning of January no child will travel by foot from the rural farms of the province but will have school transport.

We appreciate and accept the instruction from the President that managers should manage their institutions, such as the boiler which is not working, of course, which does not need high levels of power. We accept that and we are taking it along, whilst also accepting the fact that we must go to the people, get criticism from them and learn from them. That is the only way to govern. We are aware that we need to work harder. We need political, civic and corporate leadership from people who have vision and understand the importance of listening to all voices in the community, in the same way that we need community activists who have vision, have self-initiative and focus on the common good.

We believe that the activation of the 11 public information terminals in the province will enable community-wide and region-wide dialogue and deliberation. We must integrate high tech and high touch to support authentic dialogue. In the process, we will also need print media, and television and radio that embrace community or public journalism values. [Time expired.] [Applause.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Order! Hon member, allow me to briefly interrupt our proceedings. I have not called upon you, hon member. If I could interrupt our proceedings to indicate that as well as members of the executive from the provinces, we have with us the elected office bearers of our institutions in the provinces, the speakers of a number of our provincial legislatures. I just would like to indicate their presence here. They support the work of the NCOP very greatly, and I am pleased that they could join us today.

We have Mr Smith of the Northern Cape provincial legislature; Speaker Doman of the Western Cape provincial legislature; and I think I see Speaker Matomela, yes I do, of the Eastern Cape provincial legislature. I am most pleased that you could be here. It is not often that you are able to share these debates with us, but you certainly support our work in that regard. I welcome you all. [Applause.]

It is now my pleasure to call upon the hon Mr Ndebele, the MEC for transport in KwaZulu-Natal. Mr J S NDEBELE (KwaZulu-Natal): Chairperson, hon President, premiers and colleagues, the first real delivery to our people started about this time, 90 years ago, when Dr Pixley ka Seme called for us to unite as a people who are Venda, yes, but South African; Zulu, yes, but South African; and that gave us an identity, dignity and a vision of a common future.

The President has done more than anyone to promote this country as a country of hope that respects that human dignity. But dignity is not a given, it needs to be defended at all times. I just want to remark, as the longest serving MEC for transport in this country, that one of my tasks is to implement the Road Traffic Act. [Laughter.] [Applause.] There is zero tolerance in our province, something which is known worldwide. Drunken driving carries a maximum sentence of six years. Drunken driving is an aggravating, not a mitigating factor, as seems to have happened - I would like to say to Premier Direko - in Bloemfontein, her province.

The 1580 judgment of Hendricks v Hopkins says: ``Let him who sins when drunk be punished when sober.’’ [Laughter.] To plead drunkenness as a mitigating factor is like a person killing both his mother and his father, and then pleading for mercy on the grounds of being an orphan. [Laughter.]

In a judgment in 1962 former President Mandela said that he felt like a black man in a white man’s court. I think Mrs Mampuru feels the same way in 2001, and I think that judgment, which was passed in Bloemfontein, is a shame for all of us.

As KwaZulu-Natal begins to rub her eyes at the prospect of peace, she also fully recognises that the dead are not only dead for the duration of the war, they are dead forever. The past is still too close. The work, therefore, is the creation of peace, not merely an end to the conflict and violence, but an end to the beginning of all wars and all conflicts.

Our coalition government in KwaZulu-Natal is based on three principles: peace, democracy and development, in that order. But the grim fact is that when we prepared for war, we did so like precautions giants, and as we go towards peace, we move like retarded pygmies.

KwaZulu-Natal is not just a province, but a whole climate of opinions. If one sees two of us, there are three opinions. [Laughter.] This is the province which is the litmus test whether nonracialism and multiparty democracy will work and modern democratic structures will live alongside traditional leadership. It is on this that I want to remark.

We have three examples in Southern Africa, KwaZulu-Natal perhaps being the fourth. We have Botswana which decided very early on that it was going to be a Republic, and therefore anyone who wanted to be elected to anything must be elected, not born into it. We also have Lesotho, which said that they would have traditional structures alongside democratic structures. It has tensions, but it works. Then there is Swaziland - I will come back to that later. What have we learned from the coexistence of democratic structures with traditional structures? Members will remember that on 19 April former President Mandela, iNkosi Buthelezi, former President De Klerk and Prof Okomo signed a famous document. The document said that the undersigned parties agreed to recognise and protect the institutions, status and role of the constitutional position of the King of the Zulus, and the Kingdom of KwaZulu, which institutions shall be provided for in the provincial constitution of KwaZulu-Natal immediately after the holding of the elections.

If there is any delay, it will be a delay by the KwaZulu-Natal provincial legislature. One cannot have a national law regulating that. Amakhosi ngamakhosi endawo. [Amakhosi are local leaders.] They are local, and they are therefore provided for in the local constitution. This is the solemn undertaking that we as a province, not the national Government, have not carried out. But what is the role of traditional leaders, particularly if one talks about delivery? Traditional leaders are symbols of unity. That is why in Lesotho, for instance, all parties flocked to the palace when there was conflict in that country. This is because the king is the king, whether one belongs to this party or that. Therefore traditional leaders are traditional leaders for all parties.

They are preservers of culture, identity, heritage and collective memory. They are the number-one peace officers. They are law and order, whether there is conflict in the family or in the village. They guarantee freedom of association and freedom after association. They fulfil the role of justices in which they summon, try and sentence.

They are champions of development and they play a developmental role in reversing apartheid. They sit and discuss the question of land use - residential, agricultural or grazing. As hon members know, in most areas one can invest R1 billion in the building of roads there. However, there are places that roads can never reach, because people have built houses mainly to run away from colonial administration and apartheid with their pass laws. Such houses were built in such a way people could see a policeman seven kilometres away.

One cannot bring water or electricity to these places. One needs a new plan for land use that will work out these things, such as housing, infrastructure, electricity, water, telephones and so forth. Traditional leaders have a key role to play in that regard. Therefore there is no question of reducing their powers, because there is quite a lot that they have to do in partnership with democratic structures.

The third example we have in Southern Africa is, of course, Swaziland. In Swaziland the divine right of kings goes back to 1789. It is not going to be communism or Western intellectuals that will destroy the monarchy in Swaziland: it will be the monarchy and its advisers, as they are responsible for putting the traditional leadership in conflict with elected structures.

Nasekukhulunywa kutsiwa yingidzangidzane umlomo longacali manga … [Kuhlaba lulwimi.] … kutsiwe kuyawuhlalwa ngaphansi kweTinkhundla! [Luhleko.] [Locals usually refer to something that has been uttered by the monarchy as having come from a mouth that speaks no lie. [Interjections.] They also talk about going to sit under the tiNkhundla [a traditional system of governance]. [Laughter.]]

I was in Swaziland when ingonyama tore up the constitution. If it should go that way, it will go the same way as France, Russia, Iran and Ethiopia, which is in conflict with the people. It cannot survive that way.

This is what we need to discuss, particularly in KwaZulu-Natal. Nobody else can. I agree, let us speak of traditional leaders, but let us speak more about women under traditional rule, let us speak more about the rights of rural residents, let us speak more about the right to associate, let us speak more about the rights of ordinary citizens to develop and freely control circumstances concerning their lives.

We have an army of developers. We have MPs, members of the provincial legislatures, councillors and public servants in the local, district, provincial and national structures. In addition, this democratic Government has also elevated traditional leaders to a level where they are paid more than most graduates. We therefore have that whole army that must tackle the backwardness of development.

In the izimbizos that we have had - and my colleague Joyce has referred to this - we have seen, for instance, the indunas, mayors, amakhosi, members of the provincial legislatures, MPs, MECs and Ministers coming together. Republicans of all parties - ANC, IFP, New NP and DP have been persuaded and convinced that it is correct and proper that democracy coexists with traditional leadership. They have been convinced.

Similarly, it is crucial and critical that traditional leaders recognise that they can coexist with democracy. [Interjections.] [Applause.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Order! I am afraid your time has expired, hon Ndebele. Despite my fear of traditional leaders, I am forced to stop you and call upon the President of the Republic, President Mbeki, to address the Council. [Applause.]

The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Chairperson, is it not possible for me to cede some of my time to the hon Ndebele so that he can finish his speech? [Laughter.]

Let me join our Chairperson in expressing my appreciation for the presence in the House of the speakers of the provincial legislatures. I think it is important that they should be here. I would like to thank them very much for their presence. I would also like to say thank you very much to the community volunteers who have stayed with us throughout the afternoon. I hope that they heard what these members of Government are saying and I hope that will help to improve the interaction between them, the volunteers and the Government structures. By working together we can indeed speed up the process of change in our country. There are two things that we need to do, if the Chairperson agrees. Before I get to that, perhaps I should say that when the Chairperson said that we had a delegation from the People’s Republic of China, I hoped that the NCOP would congratulate the Chinese parliamentarians on China joining the World Trade Organisation. [Applause.] It was an important step in terms of the international relations of China. We have supported this process, having discussed it with the Chinese leadership some years back.

It would be appropriated - I hope this may have been done already - for the NCOP to send a message of solidarity and sympathy to Algeria after these rains and floods that have claimed the lives of hundreds of people in Algiers. I am quite certain that the Algerian people would appreciate that.

Secondly, this House should send a message to the people of New York in the United States and the Dominican Republic regarding the plane crash in New York yesterday. These tragedies seem to occur too frequently. I think it is important, if the House agrees, that it should communicate those matters.

There are many questions that have been raised. I think all of us are of one mind, namely that we need to sustain and intensify this process of interaction with our people so as to improve the impact of the system of governance on our people. We should improve it in all sorts of ways. We should improve it, in part, by ensuring that it is indeed responsive to what the people say. I think we are agreed about that, and I hope that the NCOP will find a way of monitoring how we do that in order to make an assessment as to whether members of this National Council are participating properly with regard to that process.

I thought the matter raised by Premier Dipico about what happens in the Northern Cape regarding the verification by the provincial legislature of what the executive had said was important. The NCOP might want to do the same thing with regard to all provincial governments. That is an important part of ensuring that our country proceeds as it should. There have been many questions, and we probably do not have enough time to deal with all of them in detail. I believe we were supposed to be having drinks at six. It is now after six. [Laughter.]

I would like to agree with the hon Piet Matthee and the hon Gouws when they draw attention to the issue of crime. I agree with the hon Matthee that we can shorten the periods which were mentioned by the Deputy President. I do not see why we should not, and I think we should have a look at that. In that context, the hon Matthee also referred to international levels. I am not quite sure what is meant by that. London, for instance, has much higher rates of car theft than South Africa has. So, is that an international level to which we should aspire? [Interjections.] I am not so sure.

I know countries in Western Europe which have higher rates of car hijacking than we have. I do not think we should aspire to those standards either. There are countries in the world where the children are taken to school and fetched from school by helicopter. That does not happen in this country. It might be useful for members of the Council to have a look at what is happening regarding this issue of crime globally. I think if they did that, they would come to understand that South Africa is not the exclusive catastrophe that it is presented to be.

We have a problem, and we have to deal with it. But it is incorrect to present South Africa as though it is the very home and the very epitome of crime in the world. It is not. It might be useful if members had a look at that.

It is important that - the hon Herandien mentioned this - the census be properly conducted. It should cover everybody, as Government is very interested that it should give as accurate a picture of what is happening in our country as possible. I would like to think that Statistics SA would want to make sure that that happens. The Minister of Finance addressed this issue last week and affirmed that we will make sure that nobody is not counted in. It is important, because we cannot proceed on the basis of false information about the country, as so often happens in this country.

The hon Herandien said we probably needed to intervene with regard to matters of land restitution and employment. I would certainly be most interested to hear what the views of the hon acting premier were about this in terms of what needs to happen specifically. I had the impression that the land restitution process, particularly in the Western Cape, was proceeding quite well. A number of communities have received land, and I think that has made some impact. This particular province has also been leading with regard to matters of economic growth, development and employment.

However, if the hon acting premier had some specific ideas with regard to these two matters, I would most certainly be willing to look at them to see what sort of interventions are required at the national level to speed up these particular two processes in the Western Cape.

We have been raising this question of what went wrong in this country with regard to the levels of morality for some time. It is one our national challenges, and all of us need to act together to correct that which went wrong. It was therefore correct that mention was made here of recent instances of reported child rape, the role of alcoholism and the commission of crime, and that we must act together to address this issue.

It is important, and it is one of these kind of questions, as I have been saying for some time, that should not be debased by politicising them. The point that was made by Kent Durr, and to some extent by the hon Rasool, of elevating and ennobling our politics and restoring faith in Government and the political process has to do with things of this kind. We should not have political squabbles about a matter of this kind, but rather say, as South Africans, we are all equally grievously offended by these incidences of rape, whether of children or women generally, alcohol abuse or drug abuse generally, which leads to all sorts of crime in our country, and that we need to act very firmly together on these matters.

This will be part of the process of ennobling our politics, and part of the process of restoring the people’s confidence in our political processes. Perhaps the NCOP might again want to see in what ways it encourages that process of a united national response to what clearly are important national challenges.

I do not need to say much on the matter of the emancipation of women, except to say that in the process of the NCOP assessing the functioning of Government, it needs to focus on this particular question to see whether all of these programmes that we have put in place, and which we will put in place, address this issue as an integral part of everything that we do, not as a matter to which we refer incidentally. I think that monitoring that assessment is important, including, as the hon Themba said, the issue of the functioning of our gender machineries. That would make an important input in terms of ensuring that we do indeed advance with regard to this important issue.

The hon Nyakane mentioned the difficult question of illegal workers from Zimbabwe in the Northern Province. I would like to agree with him, in that this matter should be treated as humanely as is possible. We have a bit of a problem here in that we cannot, in the process of dealing with the matter humanely, say that Home Affairs should break the law. It is important that the Department of Home Affairs should implement the law with regard to people who are illegal in this country, but, clearly, we need to handle this matter in a sensitive way so as not to add to the problems of Zimbabwe and certainly not to fan any xenophobia among our own people.

It therefore indeed needs to be handled sensitively within the spirit of ubuntu, which the hon Nyakane mentioned. However, we need also to enforce the law and look at, as has been said with regard to people who have been in this country for 15 years, what we did, because as Government, precisely because of the approach of ubuntu, we did say some years back that those people from our region who have been in our country for more than five years illegally should apply for citizenship. And those who did apply were granted citizenship. I do not know why others would have missed that particular opportunity, but certainly I agree that we have to approach the matter with all due sensitivity.

I would really like to assure the hon Ngubane that there is nobody at all in Government who is interested in violating the rule of law. There is not. If there are going to be changes to the Constitution, those changes will be carried out according to the prescriptions contained in the Constitution, not by any simple majority. So I do not think that there is any fear about this. Such legislation, as has been introduced, will of course be discussed by all the parties in Parliament, and people will make their various inputs. I imagine that out of that would come a common view.

I had understood that there was a general feeling among the political parties that there should be some space allowed for people to cross the floor. I thought that this was a common view. I might be wrong. Therefore, should this happen now, perhaps expedited by problems that are happening amongst some of the political parties, the principle in itself is not a problem. This is because everybody, I had thought, had felt that this matter needed to be attended to to give some space for people to be able to cross the floor.

Anyway, as far as the matter is being discussed now, I am saying that it will be carried out, that discussion must take place in Parliament and any changes that take place, if any, must be carried out according to the Constitution and according to the rule of law. Therefore, I do not imagine that the fear that the hon Ngubane entertains that something is going to be done that is illegal, will in fact happen. It will not happen.

The hon Shilowa mentioned an important matter about globalisation and the need for us to respond to that particular process in a way that ensures that our people do not get marginalised, do not get impoverished. I think that is a correct approach, and that it requires all sorts of things, among overselves, to make sure that our society as a whole is indeed responsive to that particular process.

Two days ago our Minister of Foreign Affairs, Nkosazana Dlamini-Zuma; the Director-General in the Presidency, Frank Chikane; others from Foreign Affairs; as well as certain presidents and I were in New York. Two people - one a leader from the developed countries and one a leader from the developing countries - both said, but separately, that when South Africa speaks the world listens. They both explained why. Part of the reason was because of some of the matters raised in this House: issues raised about our pursuit of peace, of democracy, of development - raised in this instance with respect to KwaZulu-Natal. This is part of that process which results in South Africa being listened to when South Africa speaks.

A matter was raised of the need for us - and it was mentioned by all of us here - to ensure that we strengthen local government, strengthen management

• the hon Mkhatshwa mentioned this - so as to ensure that we do indeed change the lives of our people for the better. That commitment to the improvement of the lives of our people, and of not merely occupying positions of government and being comfortable there and forgetting why we are there, is, I think, part of what makes the world listen when South Africa speaks.

The way we have approached the institution of traditional leadership which, in fact, had been essentially discredited by the system of colonialism and apartheid, when we said we respect this institution and must look again at its place and role and the dignity of the office, I think that too is what makes South Africa listened to when South Africa speaks. I, therefore, would like to say in connection with that particular matter of the traditional leaders that it is important that we also do not treat this matter as a political football, but that we treat it seriously. We are all of us serious about addressing this issue.

There are various issues that were agreed on as to how we should proceed in order to ensure the resolution of this matter. It is not correct that there are promises that have not been fulfilled. That is not correct. There are processes that were agreed on and those processes are ongoing. I would really like to hope that this matter should not be treated, as I was saying, as a political football, as an issue of tension, but as rather a matter that we must all engage in constructively so that we do indeed realise the common objective of securing the proper place for traditional leaders in our country.

Premier Mahlangu mentioned the matter of the role of the media. I think we must continue to interact with the media, to communicate our views to the media, to communicate what we are doing, to report to the media and so on, and to do so actively, consistently and systematically. Certainly, that is what the editors complained about the last time we met, that Government does not do this and that when they do not report us properly, we complain, but that in many instances the fault lies with us. So, I think, we must do this process of communication consistently, without giving up. Indeed, I think, in time the media, as all of us have done, will develop and outgrow its older baggage in order to be responsive to these processes that are taking place in our country.

I must say that I did not at all notice that the hon Kent Durr had a hand in his pocket. [Laughter.] I did notice that premier Mahlangu had his hand in his pocket. [Laughter.] It is a common problem. Sometimes one does not know what to do with one’s hands. I would not worry too much about it, if I were the hon Kgoali.

As for kissing frogs … [Laughter.] … I would like to hear from the hon Botha how it feels. [Laughter.] It may also be that we already have too many princes in our country. Perhaps we should stop kissing them, so that we do not add to the princes that we have.

I agree with the hon Manne Dipico. We should arrive alive. We should not drink and drive. The hon Sbu Ndebele has told us about the penalties in KwaZulu-Natal which are imposed when one is sober and not when one is drunk.

A merry Christmas and a happy New Year to all members of the NCOP. Let us all be back here next year very much alive. [Applause.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Order! Our thanks to the President of the Republic for having once more introduced a most interesting debate and insight regarding progress in our country. Our debate is now at an end. Before hon members rush to the doors for the drink that the President strangely made reference to, I must ask hon members to remain seated until the Chairperson and the President have left the Chamber.

Debate concluded.

The Council adjourned at 18:23. ____

            ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS
                      MONDAY, 12 NOVEMBER 2001

TABLINGS:

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces:

Papers:

1. The Minister of Finance:

 Report of the Registrar of Unit trust Companies for 1999.

1. The Minister of Water Affairs and Forestry:

 (a)    Report and Financial  Statements  of  the  Department  of  Water
     Affairs and Forestry for 2000-2001, including  the  Report  of  the
     Auditor-General on the Financial Statements  of  Vote  34  -  Water
     Affairs and Forestry for 2000-2001 [RP 88-2001].


 (b)    Report and Financial Statements of the Water Research Commission
     for 2000-2001, including the Report of the Auditor-General  on  the
     Financial Statements for 2000-2001.

COMMITTEE REPORTS:

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces:

1. Report of the Mediation Committee on the Cultural Laws Second Amendment Bill [B 46B and B 46D - 2000] (National Assembly - sec 76), dated 9 November 2001:

   The Mediation Committee, having considered the Cultural Laws Second Amendment Bill [B 46B and B 46D - 2000] (National Assembly

   • sec 76), as well as the papers referred to it, reports as follows:

   1. The Cultural Laws Second Amendment Bill [B 46B - 2000] (National Assembly - sec 76) was passed by the National Assembly on 24 May 2001 and submitted to the National Council of Provinces for approval.

   2. The National Council of Provinces passed the Cultural Laws Second Amendment Bill [B 46D - 2000] (National Assembly - sec 76) on 28 September 2001, containing a number of amendments agreed to by the Select Committee on Education and Recreation.

   3. Upon referral of the latter amended Bill to the National Assembly, that House did not accept the amendments passed by the National Council of Provinces. Consequently, the National Assembly rejected the further amended version of the Bill.

   4. The Bill was referred to the Mediation Committee on 25 October 2001 in terms of Joint Rule 186(1)(b) of the Joint Rules of Parliament. The Mediation Committee met on 9 November 2001, and, after deliberation, agreed on another version of the Bill.

   5. The effect of this decision is that the Secretary to Parliament is required to submit the latter version of the Bill to both the Speaker of the Assembly and the Chairperson of the Council in terms of Joint Rule 188(3), for consideration by the Assembly and the Council.

   6. The Committee therefore submits the Cultural Laws Second Amendment Bill [B 46F - 2000] (National Assembly - sec 76), and recommends that the Assembly and the Council pass this mediated version.

               TUESDAY, 13 NOVEMBER 2001
      

ANNOUNCEMENTS:

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces:

1. The Speaker and the Chairperson:

 (1)    The Joint Tagging Mechanism (JTM) on 13 November 2001  in  terms
     of Joint Rule 160(6), classified the  following  Bill  as  a  money
     Bill (section 77):


     (i)     Revenue Laws Second Amendment Bill [B 84 - 2001]  (National
          Assembly - sec 77).


 (2)     The  Minister  for  Justice  and   Constitutional   Development
     submitted the Tweede Wysigingswetsontwerp op die Grondwet  van  die
     Republiek van Suid-Afrika [W 78 - 2001] (National  Assembly  -  sec
     74) to the Speaker and the Chairperson on 13  November  2001.  This
     is the official translation of the Constitution of the Republic  of
     South  Africa  Second  Amendment  Bill  [B  78  -  2001]  (National
     Assembly - sec 74), which was introduced in the  National  Assembly
     by the Minister on 27 September 2001.

National Council of Provinces:

1. The Chairperson:

 Message from National Assembly to National Council of Provinces:


 Bill passed by National Assembly on 13 November  2001  and  transmitted
 for concurrence:


 (1)    Adjustments Appropriation Bill [B 82 - 2001] (National  Assembly
     - sec 77).


 The Bill has been referred to the Select Committee on  Finance  of  the
 National Council of Provinces.

1. The Chairperson:

 The following papers have been tabled  and  are  now  referred  to  the
 relevant committees as mentioned below:


 (1)    The following paper is  referred  to  the  Select  Committee  on
     Economic Affairs:


     Report and Financial Statements of the National Gambling Board  for
     2000-2001, including the  Report  of  the  Auditor-General  on  the
     Financial Statements for 2000-2001 [RP 177-2001].


 (2)    The following paper is referred to the Select Committee on Local
     Government and Administration:


     Report of the Auditor-General on Auditing and Financial  Management
     Matters in the Public Sector [RP 265-2001].


 (3)    The following papers are referred to  the  Select  Committee  on
     Finance:


     (a)     Report and Financial Statements of the Auditor-General  for
          2000-2001 [RP 200-2001].


     (b)     Report  and  Financial  Statements  of  the  Financial  and
          Fiscal Commission for 1999-2000, including the Report  of  the
          Auditor-General on the Financial Statements for 1999-2000  [RP
          197-2001].


     (c)     Report  and  Financial  Statements  of  the  Financial  and
          Fiscal Commission for 2000-2001, including the Report  of  the
          Auditor-General on the Financial Statements for 2000-2001  [RP
          201-2001].


     (d)     Government Notice No R.997 published in Government  Gazette
          No 22723 dated 2 October 2001, Recognition of Stock  Exchanges
          in  terms  of  the  definition  of  "Recognised  Exchange"  in
          Paragraph 1 of the Eighth Schedule to the Income Tax Act, 1962
          (Act No 58 of 1962).


     (e)      Government  Notice  No  R.1036  published  in   Government
          Gazette No 22752 dated 12 October 2001,  Notice  in  terms  of
          Regulation 4(3) of the Exchange Control Regulations, 1961.


     (f)      Explanatory  Memorandum  on  the   Second   Revenue   Laws
          Amendment Bill, 2001 [WP 3-2001].

COMMITTEE REPORTS:

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces:

1. Report of the Joint Budget Committee on the Medium Term Expenditure Framework, dated 13 November 2001:

 The Joint Budget Committee report as follows:


 A Introduction


     The terms of reference of the Committee was:


     1. To analise  and  debate  the  2001  Medium  Term  Budget  Policy
          Statement (MTBPS).


     2. To conduct hearings on the  Medium  Term  Expenditure  Framework
          (MTEF) and the Division of Revenue Bill.


     3. To engage in the budgeting process throughout the  budget  cycle
          in order to allow Parliament  to  have  an  input  during  the
          drafting stage of the budget.


     The Committee was formed on 30 October 2001, the same day that  the
     MTBPS  was  tabled.  In  an  effort  to  interrogate  the  spending
     priorities of national departments, as outlined in the  MTBPS,  the
     Committee invited the following participants:


     (a)     National departments, as mentioned in the MTBPS.


     (b)     Civil society.


     (c)     Business leaders.


     (d)     Chairpersons of Portfolio and Select Committees.


     The Intergovernmental Fiscal Review (IGFR) formed a basis  for  the
     discussion on the Division of Revenue.


     The broad policy priorities of the government over the Medium  Term
     Expenditure Framework  (MTEF)  is  the  "reduction  of  poverty  to
     alleviate inequality and vulnerability". The context in which  this
     can be  achieved,  is  through  the  following  priorities  of  the
     national government, as listed in the MTBPS:


     *  "Continued  emphasis  on  investment  in,  and  maintenance  and
          rehabilitation of infrastructure, enhancing South Africa's job
          creation and economic growth prospects over the medium to long
          term".


     *   "Strengthening  programmes  that  address  the  impact  of  the
          HIV/AIDS epidemic".


     *  "Rebuilding Local Governments and meeting commitments to  ensure
          free basic service delivery".


     *  "Strengthening capacity in the safety  and  security  sector  to
          prevent and combat crime".


     *  "Restructuring national entities, specifically the  Unemployment
          Insurance Fund and  the  SA  Post  Office,  enabling  them  to
          improve the quality and access to service delivery".


     *   "Further  strengthening  of  tax  administration  capacity  and
          establishing a financial intelligence centre to assist  global
          efforts in combating money laundering".


 B South Africa's macroeconomic environment


     The government's commitment to budgetary restraint  over  the  past
     five years has produced a reduction in borrowing and debts  service
     costs.  The  resulting  increase  investor   confidence,   led   to
     increases  in  gross  domestic   fixed   investment,   which   will
     facilitate strong real growth  in  spending  over  the  next  three
     years while  still  maintaining  a  sound  and  sustainable  fiscal
     policy  stance.  In  addition,  improved  efficiency   in   revenue
     collection has improved tax compliance and  tax  morale,  resulting
     in additional resources to reduce government debt and provide  room
     for tax cuts.


 C Benefit of depreciating rand


     The depreciating rand to the dollar  has  benefitted  the  economy,
     mainly in  encouraging  higher  and  more  diversified  exports  of
     manufactured  goods  and  services,  leading  to  the  increase  in
     competitiveness of our exports and sustaining  growth.  However,  a
     depreciated  rand  raises  the  cost  of  imported  technology  and
     services to  maintain  our  competitive  advantage  in  the  export
     market.


 D.     Resilience of economy contributing to relative growth


     The current momentum in economic growth places South  Africa  in  a
     rather comfortable position to  respond  to  the  downturn  in  the
     world economy with an appropriate mix of  tax  relief,  accelerated
     infrastructure spending and further capital expenditure  on  social
     services and municipal  infrastructure  providing  real  growth  in
     public spending. The European Union Commission's  report  on  South
     Africa indicates that trade is up by 35%, in rand terms,  with  the
     slowdown in the European economy not expected to be as big as  that
     of the United States. The United States is expected, after  the  11
     September attacks, to  begin  substantial  public  spending  and  a
     series  of  interest  rates  cuts  to  stimulate  growth  in  their
     economy, should improve the economic outlook  for  next  year.  The
     European  Union  has  already  started  implementing  monetary  and
     fiscal policies to stimulate growth, leading to further demands  in
     our export market. Further increases in  stability  and  confidence
     in our economy is expected to come from an upgrading of our credit-
     worthiness from  Moody's  next  year.  This  will  also  result  in
     increased fixed investment and reduced borrowing cost.


 E.     Tax policy and administration


     The restructuring of SARS along with other tax reforms has  enabled
     more revenue to be collected at a lower tax rate,  contributing  to
     both a steady improvement in the fiscal position  and  further  tax
     relief. Two most significant changes  to  the  tax  structure  have
     been the change  from  a  source-based  tax  to  a  residence-based
     income tax, with the introduction of capital gains tax.  Residence-
     based income tax adds to the fiscus by taxing the foreign  earnings
     of South  African  companies  and  individual.  Capital  gains  tax
     remedies  a  fundamental  deficiency  in  the  income  tax  regime,
     thereby improving  the  overall  equity  and  efficiency  of  South
     Africa's tax system.


     As part of  the  drive  to  stimulate  growth  in  the  economy  by
     creating  jobs,  a  wage  incentive  aimed   at   encouraging   the
     employment of learners has been introduced. This wage incentive  is
     set to encourage job creation by reducing the cost  of  hiring  new
     workers and to increase the skills base by  offering  learnerships.
     It  is  also  to  encourage  the  formalisation  of  the   informal
     employment sector, which will see further contributions to the  UIF
     and  other  goverment  programmes,   ultimately   benefitting   the
     workers.


 F.     Improvement in savings and investments  by  national  government
     and households


     The monetary policies pursued by the government  have  resulted  in
     declining interest rates. Inflation targeting  by  the  SA  Reserve
     Bank in the band of 6 to 3  per  cent  has  led  to  certainty  for
     investors.  Low  inflation  results  in  more   disposable   income
     benefiting  poor  people.  Both  investments  and  savings  in  our
     economy have shown signs of recovery  with  Gross  domestic  saving
     rising from 14.3 to 15.3 per cent of GDP from  1998  to  the  first
     half of 2001. Declining interest rates and  inflation  is  expected
     to accelerate gross fixed capital formation contributing to  growth
     in our economy, rising from 2.6 per cent in  2001  to  average  3.3
     per cent over the next three years.


 G.     Competitiveness


     The Department of Trade and Industry has also highlighted the  need
     for the increase in quality of raw  materials  produced  to  ensure
     competitiveness of South African exports. Examples  mentioned  were
     improvements needed in the quality  of  leather  produced  for  the
     motor vehicle industry in order to ensure exportable  quality.  The
     department is also involved in advising SMMEs and  entrepeneurs  to
     become more competitive by producing  goods  that  are  of  a  high
     quality and standard.


 H.     Fiscal Policy


     The 2001 Budget  announced  a  change  in  fiscal  policy  from  an
     environment where the focus was on  reducing  the  deficit  to  one
     that decidedly  contributes  towards  economic  growth.  Continuing
     with the trend, the Budget for  2002  is  expected  to  announce  a
     further acceleration in  public  spending,  especially  on  capital
     infrastructure and provides room for  a  reduction  in  tax  rates,
     especially to low and  middle-income  workers.  This  more  growth-
     oriented fiscal policy is possible  because  of  a  healthy  fiscal
     position and declining debts service  costs.  The  Government  will
     continue to moderate its borrowing in order to reduce debt  service
     costs and interest rates in the long-term.


 I.     Medium Term Expenditure Framework


     In keeping  with  the  budget  theme  for  next  year  -  "Reducing
     Poverty,  Inequality  and  Vulnerability",  the  following  section
     outlines  how  departments  are  responding  to  the   government's
     priorities in the way in which the policies are  changing  and  the
     2002 budgets are being put together.
 J.     Restructuring national entities


     The  Committee  supports  the  additional   allocations   for   the
     restructuring of the SA Post  Office  over  the  MTEF  period,  but
     caution that it should become  self-sustainable  in  future,  while
     retaining  its  social  responsibilities  to  deliver  services  to
     previously underserved areas. The operational  losses  incurred  by
     the SA Post Office can in part be attributed to the failure of  the
     strategic  management  partner,  poor  financial   management   and
     corruption. Furthermore, the extension of  services  to  areas  not
     covered is not compromised.


     Another spending pressure on the MTEF arises from the  past  policy
     and administration of the UIF, which has resulted in  poor  funding
     mechanisms  to  deal  with  increased  levels  of  unemployment.  A
     turnaround strategy by the Department of  Labour  was  designed  to
     ensure that the  fund  becomes  sustainable  in  future.  Extending
     coverage to high-income earners  whose  contribution  will  cushion
     reserves, as they are less likely to  lose  their  jobs  and  claim
     unemployment benefits, will ensure this objective.  The  use  of  a
     sliding scale  for  paying  out  claims  will  also  help  in  this
     endeavour. In addition, funds are collected from all employers  who
     make deductions, and SARS is now responsible for  collections.  The
     collection and benefit of the fund has  furthermore  been  extended
     to farm and domestic workers, whose  sectors  are  more  vulnerable
     than  those  of  people  in  permanent  employment.  Installing   a
     computer-based database system should facilitate this turnaround.


 K.     Poverty alleviation


     The key objective identified in the MTBPS is  poverty  alleviation,
     to reduce the burden on the most  vulnerable  members  of  society.
     Social development  is  the  one  area  where  the  government  can
     directly attempt to eradicate poverty.  The  Department  of  Social
     Development  has  taken  a  step  towards  eradicating  poverty  by
     implementing a poverty relief programme. This programme will  focus
     on food, security, income  generation,  youth  development,  micro-
     financing and the integration of people with disabilities.  In  its
     contribution, this programme supports employment of more  women  in
     construction to generate income for their own  means  of  survival.
     From the Health Department's side, there is huge investment in  the
     school-feeding  programme  that  provides  nutrition  to  those  in
     poorer communities.


     The poverty relief  fund  provides  further  benefit  for  projects
     aimed at alleviating the plight of the  rural  poor,  women,  youth
     and  the  disabled.  Funding  of  R1,5  billion  is  available  for
     projects that address water resourcing, waste management,  creation
     of   infrastructure   and   protection    of    water    resources.
     Infrastructure  projects  under  way  include  créches,   community
     facilities,  access  roads,  community  gardens  and  water  supply
     projects.


 L.     Social services cluster


     The social services cluster forms the  backbone  of  the  MTEF,  as
     outlined in the MTBPS. The various departments in the cluster  have
     all  committed   themselves   to   undertake   an   institutionally
     integrated approach to increase  the  infrastructural  capacity  to
     deliver on social services through, in some instances, jointly  co-
     ordinated projects.


     "Education and training  are  long-term  investment  that  lay  the
     foundation for  an  improved  quality  of  life  through  increased
     skills and capabilities", conferring a positive externality in  the
     sense that the benefits spill over to  the  entire  population.  An
     educated labour force is much more innovative and can  bring  about
     technological advancement,  which  will  eventually  contribute  to
     growth.


     Within the social services cluster,  the  Department  of  Education
     has its emphasis on the following objectives:  Equity,  efficiency,
     quality and  accountability.  Priorities  include  HIV/AIDS,  Early
     Childhood  Development  (ECD),  and   school   effectiveness.   The
     department is specifically focusing  on  ECD,  since  they  believe
     that it  addresses  the  needs  of  the  poor.  The  allocation  of
     resources for early childhood development is particularly  welcomed
     by the FFC.


     A lack of investment on maintenance has  also  been  identified  in
     provincial education departments and the  number  of  schools  that
     needs repairs  still  remains  high.  The  national  Department  of
     Education has established a Directorate: Physical Planning to  look
     into the spending rates of various provinces.


 M.     Capacity problems


     One of the challenges facing the Department  of  Education  is  the
     lack of capacity to  convert  money  into  resources,  e.g.  buying
     learner support material or building classrooms. It is often  found
     that provinces do not know how to spend money in a timely and cost-
     effective  way.  This  problem  usually  exists  because  of   poor
     planning at management level.


     The  spread  of  HIV/AIDS  is  a  challenge  to  society  and   the
     government at large. The National Integrated  Plan  (NIP)  includes
     making resources available for  implementing  programmes  available
     to  the  Departments  of  Health,  of  Social  Development  and  of
     Education.  These  programmes  are  also  linked  to  the   poverty
     reduction strategy. The NIP is lead by  the  Department  of  Health
     and is aimed at spending money on prevention priorities,  expanding
     home-based care and community-based  care  programmes,  life-skills
     programming schools  and  voluntary  counselling  and  testing.  In
     respect of the Education Department, roll-overs  will  be  used  to
     pay HIV/AIDS officials that will be appointed to work  on  projects
     relating to HIV/AIDS.


     The FFC highly commends the additional allocation of resources  for
     the integrated strategy against HIV/AIDS -  R320  million  to  R422
     million for 2002-03 to R546 million for 2004 - to strengthen  home-
     and community-based care, and  support  voluntary  counselling  and
     testing and strength life-skills programmes  in  schools.  However,
     the FFC has reservations  about  including  this  as  part  of  the
     equitable share because  HIV/AIDS  and  other  diseases  associated
     with it may be covered in the PHC sector budgets.


      The child support grant has been extended to reach  three  million
     beneficiaries by the end of  2002-03.  Despite  available  funding,
     problems persist.  eg  children  not  being  supported  because  of
     foster  parents  misusing  the  money.  This  leaves   the   Social
     Development Department to work  together  with  the  Department  of
     Home Affairs to make sure that applicants have  the  necessary  and
     valid identity documents and birth  certificates  when  they  apply
     for grants. This departmental co-operation can also  speed  up  the
     application processes.


     Even though additional  resources  have  been  made  available  for
     increases in the child support grant  and  other  grants,  the  FFC
     fears that the budgeted values - 2 000 values  were  used  -  would
     underestimate the demand placed on  these  grants,  especially  the
     foster care grant.


     On the housing front, the change in focus from quantity to  quality
     of housing has slowed down the delivery process. In  addition,  the
     department needs  to  develop  a  proper  planning  and  relocation
     approach, as well as focus on the integrated rural development  and
     urban renewal plans for future developments.


 N.     Co-ordination between departments


     In the administration services  cluster,  the  Department  of  Home
     Affairs  has  placed  itself  in  a  position  to  facilitate   the
     integration of all departments - Health, Police, etc,  as  well  as
     the Department of Labour (UIF), to  ensure  effective  delivery  of
     services and to  enable  access  to  pension  funds,  the  UIF  and
     welfare grants. The proper financial management system should be  a
     priority for the department, i.e. a  system  to  give  all  details
     about an individual when applying for grants,  identity  documents,
     UIF, etc.


     With  the  inheritance  of   infrastructure   backlogs   especially
     prevalent in housing, health  and  education,  the  government  has
     undertaken to  increase  spending  on  infrastructure  maintenance,
     rehabilitation,  and  on  construction  to  provide  the  necessary
     microeconomic framework, complementing  the  already  macroeconomic
     achievements, to bring about an  integrated  departmental  approach
     to sustain and support the delivery of public services.


 O.     Protection services cluster


     The objective of an integrated justice system,  comprising  police,
     justice,  correctional  services  and  defence,   is   pivotal   in
     stabilising crime levels  and  promoting  growth  in  the  country.
     Evidence presented to the  Committee  attested  to  the  fact  that
     integration of policy priorities  and  budgetary  allocation  is  a
     crucial  factor  within  this  cluster.  In  order  to  "strengthen
     capacity in the safety and  security  sector  and  to  prevent  and
     combat crime the budgetary allocation will grow  by  7,2  per  cent
     annually over the medium term". The  Committee  noted  that  a  key
     part of the hearings was devoted to personnel issues  and  salaries
     across the cluster.


 P.     Skills development and job creation


     One of the key issues for the Department of Labour  is  sustainable
     job creation in accordance with the job summit  commitments  agreed
     to in  1999,  through  special  employment  programmes,  integrated
     provincial projects,  sectoral  job  creation  and  human  resource
     development.  The  skills  development  levy  is  largely  used  to
     achieve this objective.


     In addition, the department aims to instil ordinary  citizens  with
     the necessary skills required in the job market. Another  challenge
     for the department is the training of people for these  programmes,
     especially in rural areas.


 Q.     Division of revenue


     The Committee considered a  report  on  the  vertical  transfer  of
     funds from  national  to  provincial  and  local  governments.  The
     spending priorities of the government, with respect  to  provincial
     and local government, encompasses social services spending  on  the
     provincial side and  the  provision  of  basic  services  to  local
     government.  In  line  with  this,  the  government  adjusted   the
     vertical share of the spheres of government to enable execution  of
     these priorities. In order to achieve equity,  revenue  is  divided
     horizontally by means of  unconditional  grants  (equitable  share)
     and  conditional  grants.  In  addition,  local  governments   have
     undergone  major  restructuring,  in  order  to  deliver  efficient
     services,  and  some  of  this  cost  burden  is  being  met   from
     nationally raised revenue.
     Some concerns raised by the Committee includes the fact that  these
     grants may not be sufficient to address  the  challenges  ahead  of
     local government, where  people  can  experience  direct  benefits.
     Some thought needs to  given  to  increasing  their  share  of  the
     equitable grant. Whereas a previous concern was the flow  of  funds
     to local governments, the challenge currently is the  underspending
     of funds. Second is the lack of capacity that still  exists  within
     some  departments  to  spend  allocated  funds.  In  addition,  the
     Committee was of the opinion that the mindset of local  governments
     should be  changed  to  include  three-year  budgets  and  spending
     priorities in order to ensure sustainable spending, providing  that
     the necessary spending capacity is available. This, in  turn,  will
     lead  to   the   improvement   in   and   increase   of   municipal
     infrastructure, in line with government priorities.  In  addressing
     the capacity problem, more information needs to be provided to  the
     National Treasury on spending measures in order to  have  proactive
     strategies to deal with underspending, as this could lead  to  lack
     of growth and non-delivery of services,  in  direct  opposition  to
     government priorities. More co-operation between different  spheres
     of government will ensure that local governments take ownership  of
     functions  assigned  to  them,  for  instance  to  make  sure  that
     affordable service charges accompany provision of low-cost  housing
     by the national government to  the  lower-income  groups.  Finally,
     the Committee is of the opinion  that  the  rural  development  and
     urban  renewal  strategies  should   be   vigorously   pursued   by
     provincial and local governments  through  co-operative  governance
     and a sound infrastructure planning.


     Provinces and municipalities are the  service  delivery  agents  of
     the government, and it is all  the  more  important  that  they  be
     capacitated to adjust their spending priorities to be in line  with
     those of the national government. Whereas  provinces  receive  most
     income (95%) through national transfers, i.e. the  equitable  share
     and various unconditional grants, municipalities have  the  ability
     to generate up to 90% of their own revenue. This  capacity  depends
     on their respective tax bases, and varies for Category A, B  and  C
     municipalities. Some financial  assistance  is  thus  required  for
     local government  in  particular,  where  major  restructuring  has
     taken place with the  amalgamation  of  284  local  governments  in
     order to meet spending priorities. This was done with  the  aim  of
     delivering   more   efficient   and   effective   services   across
     boundaries, particularly to areas  lacking  in  infrastructure  and
     service  delivery.  The  provision  of  services  to   communities,
     promoting  social  and  economic  development  and   infrastructure
     development, should be done in a sustainable way, and also  involve
     the community organisations.  Due  to  varying  tax  bases  between
     municipalities resulting in lack of  capacity,  there  is  often  a
     tendency for some  municipalities  to  be  unable  to  spend  their
     funds. It  therefore  becomes  important  for  provincial  and  the
     national government to intervene and support the  local  government
     to address service backlogs and improve service delivery. Once  all
     these structures are in place, municipal managers  should  then  be
     held  accountable  for  non-delivery  of   services,   arrears   in
     payments, deficits, corruption and non-reporting of information.


     The  other  way  of  improving  service  delivery  and  eradicating
     poverty  is  PPPs,  whereby  the  public  departments  are  joining
     together to increase the capacity and  skill  transfer  to  explore
     the  necessary  opportunities  and  improve   infrastructure.   The
     Department of Provincial and Local  Government  is  overseeing  the
     implemention  of  the  Integrated  Development  Plans   (IDPs)   in
     municipalities to direct resources towards key  policy  priorities.
     Furthermore,  the  effective  implementation  of   the   Integrated
     Sustainable  Rural  Development  Programme  (ISRDS)  uses  existing
     funding to focus on  improving  service  delivery  in  co-ordinated
     manner.


 R.     Minister of Finance's response to inputs of Committee


     1. General observations on inputs


          (a) Most input were supportive of the  growth-oriented  budget
              statement.


          (b) Some people argue for faster growth and  others  for  less
              borrowing and tax cuts.


          (c) The 2002 budget provides a balance that will contribute to
              strong growth in  respect  of  infrastructure  and  social
              services, as well as  tax  relief,  mainly  for  low-  and
              middle-income workers.
     2. Current economy


          Although the global economic slowdown will affect  our  growth
          negatively, we are  still  projected  to  post  positive  real
          growth in the economy, due to:


          *   Strong fiscal position provides room for fiscal policy  as
              a growth stimulant.


          *   The export sector is performing well, due to a competitive
              currency.


          *   Inflation is on a downward trend, and we have not  had  to
              hike interest rates or run up foreign liabilities, as  was
              the case in 1998.


     3. Fiscal policy


          (a) The fiscal  framework  makes  provision  for  strong  real
              growth in spending next year.


          (b) The frameworks create  room  for  tax  cuts  to  stimulate
              expenditure on consumption.


          (c) Limitations to  borrowing  and  low  interest  rates  will
              render growth in spending more sustainable.


          (d) PPPs and  regulatory  reform  can  be  used  to  stimulate
              capital investment and job creation.


          (e) An increase in the deficit to 2,6% is projected.


     4. Tax policy


          (a) No major tax reforms in 2002.


          (b) Tax cuts will aim  to  stimulate  consumer  demand,  lower
              employment  cost,   improved   overall   progression   and
              fairness of the tax system.


          (c) During 2002, the government will  review  retirement  fund
              taxes, public benefit organisations and  specific  sectors
              where the effective rate is low.


     5. Spending framework


          (a) Top priority in 2002 will be given  to  reducing  poverty,
              inequality and vulnerability.


          (b)  Other  priorities  are  increased  spending   on   health
              services,    social    grants,     municipal     services,
              infrastructure,  policing  and  administration   services,
              strengthening of programmes and tackling HIV/AIDS.
          (c) The government must improve the quality of spending.


          (d) A situation of underspending  is  improving  signalled  by
              government capital formation grew in  the  first  half  of
              2001, the size of roll-overs is declining and  conditional
              grant mechanisms are changed to aid spending.


     6. Intergovernmental finances


          (a) Growth in local government share caters for the  extension
              of services to those at  present  excluded,  provision  of
              free basic services and covering costs  of  governance  in
              fiscally weak municipalities.


          (b) The transformation of local government should improve  the
              level of efficiency and quality of services to the poor.


          (c) The provincial share rises to accommodate the social grant
              take-up  and   inflation-related   increase   in   grants,
              programmes to fight HIV/AIDS,  early  childhood  education
              and acceleration of spending on infrastructure.


              The Minister said that "hearings conducted in  the  Budget
              Committee are a very positive development and that  inputs
              and comments made will be factored into the 2002 Budget".


 S.     Comments and recommendations


     1.  The  Committee  supports  the  theme  of  the  2002  budget  of
          addressing poverty and vulnerability.  The  Committee  further
          agrees  with  major  priorities  of  the  government  and  the
          expansionary fiscal policy as  projected  over  the  MTEF.  It
          proposes to release funds to deal  with  the  social  problems
          affecting  the  poor,  while  at  the  same  time  stimulating
          economic growth and job creation over the medium to long term.


     2. The Committee is concerned with the lack of  capacity  to  spend
          in some areas of spending where services are delivered.  While
          there are improvements, the government must  put  measures  in
          place to deal with these urgently.  Committees  of  Parliament
          must play a role in monitoring this. Committees of the various
          legislatures  must  also,  scrutinise  and   monitor   monthly
          expenditure figures released by the Treasury on  a  continuous
          basis and hold departments accountable in accordance with  the
          PFMA. This should limit the  roll-over  of  funds  and  reduce
          underspending.


     3. The Committee is concerned  with  the  levels  of  co-ordination
          between government departments, despite the  cluster  approach
          of ministries at national  level.  This  is  more  visible  in
          government capital projects, with  the  resultant  roll-overs.
          The Committee  therefore  recommends  the  intensification  of
          better co-ordination at all levels, better  planing  at  local
          level and the utilisation of PPPs to enhance delivery, provide
          skills and expertise, where necessary. However, there needs to
          be proper regulation of these PPPs in order to avert  problems
          similar to those experienced with in some areas.


     4. The lack  of  financial  services  in  the  rural  areas  is  of
          concern, as such services are crucial for  rural  development.
          Possible mechanisms  for  financial  services  to  reach  poor
          areas, via The Post Bank, is one option in respect of  such  a
          service. The government,  via  the  Department  of  Trade  and
          Industry, is urged to explore  increased  spending  on  small,
          medium and micro enterprises.


     5. Effective  co-ordination  for  maintenance   and  infrastructure
          between Department of Public Works and orther  departments  is
          necessary for maintenance and the roll-out  of  capital  works
          programmes of government.


     6.  There  is  a  need  to  strenghtened  the  capacity  of   local
          government in order  to  carry  out  its  mandate  to  deliver
          services.


     7. The Committee recommends that in future departments should  make
          presentations to the committee as clusters to further  improve
          co-ordination between departments.


 T.     Conclusion


     The Committee would like to thank all  participants  in  the  MTBPS
     hearings, as this will assist Parliament in its oversight role  and
     further contribute to the budget process.


     APPENDIX 1


     The  following  stakeholders  were  invited  and  participated   in
     hearings on the MTBPS:


     Representatives from the following entities attended the hearings:


     Departments


     1. Communications
     2. Correctional Services
     3. Education
     4. Health
     5. Housing
     6. Home Affairs
     7. Justice and Constitional Development
     8. Labour
     9. Minerals and Energy
     10.     National Treasury
     11.     Provincial and Local Government
     12.     Public Enterprises
     13.     Public Works
     14.     Safety and Security
     15.     Social Development
     16.     Trade and Industry


     Constitutional bodies


     1. Financial and Fiscal Commission


     Private sector


     1. Economist from Standard Bank
     2. SACOB


     Civil society


     1. IDASA
      2.      People's Budget (SACC, SANGOCO, COSATU).
     3. FEDUSA.


     APPENDIX 2


     Abbreviations


     ECD     Early Childhood Development
     FDI     Foreign Direct Investment
     FFC     Financial and Fiscal Commission
     HIV/AIDS       Human  Immuno-Deficiency  Virus/  Acquired   Immuno-
                        Deficiency Syndrome
     IDP     Integrated Development Plan
     ISRD    Integrated Sustainable
                        Rural Development
     MTBPS   Medium Term Budget Policy Statement
                MTEF    Medium Term Expenditure Framework
     NGO     Non-governmental Organisation
     NIP     National Integrated Plan
     PFMA    Public Finance Management Act
     PHC     Primary Health Care
     PPP     Public-Private Partnership
     SACOB   South African Chamber of Commerce
     SARS    South African Revenue Services
     SETA          Sectoral Education and
                        Training Authority
     UIF     Unemployment Insurance Fund

1. Report of the Joint Committee on Revenue Laws Second Amendment Bill on the Revenue Laws Second Amendment Bill [B 84 - 2001] (National Assembly - sec 77), dated 12 November 2001:

   The Joint Committee on Revenue Laws Second Amendment Bill, having considered the subject of the Revenue Laws Second Amendment Bill [B 84 - 2001] (National Assembly - sec 77), referred to it and classified by the Joint Tagging Mechanism as a Money Bill, reports that it has concluded its deliberations thereon.

National Council of Provinces:

1. Report of the Select Committee on Finance on the Pension Funds Second Amendment Bill [B 41B - 2001] (National Assembly - sec 75), dated 12 November 2001:

   The Select Committee on Finance, having considered the subject of the Pension Funds Second Amendment Bill [B 41B - 2001] (National Assembly - sec 75), referred to it, reports the Bill with proposed amendments, as follows:

   CLAUSE 4

   1. On page 11, in line 7, after “which” to insert “the registrar is satisfied”.

   2. On page 12, in line 20, after the first “board” to insert:

      or at the request of the person appointed in terms of subsection (3)

   3. On page 15, in line 7, to omit “will be retrenched”.

2. Report of the Select Committee on Labour and Public Enterprises on the Unemployment Insurance Bill [B 3B - 2001] (National Assembly - sec 75), dated 13 November 2001:

 The  Select  Committee  on  Labour  and  Public   Enterprises,   having
 considered the subject of the Unemployment Insurance Bill [B 3B - 2001]
 (National Assembly - sec 75), referred to it,  reports  the  Bill  with
 proposed amendments, as follows:


 CLAUSE 1


 1.     On page 5, from line 34, to omit the  definition  of  "employee"
     and to substitute:


     "employee" means any natural person who  receives  remuneration  or
     to whom remuneration accrues in respect of services rendered or  to
     be  rendered  by  that  person,  but   excludes   any   independent
     contractor;


 2.      On  page  6,  from  line  10,  to  omit   the   definition   of
     "remuneration" and to substitute:


      "remuneration" means "remuneration" as defined  in  section  1  of
     the Unemployment Insurance Contributions Act;


 The Committee wishes to report that it  is  of  the  opinion  that  the
 following further changes could also have been considered:


 1.     The composition of the Unemployment Insurance  Board  should  be
     gender-representative (page 18).


 2.     The Director-General must submit financial  statements,  instead
     of the statement of income and expenditure and  the  balance  sheet
     of the Fund (page 21).


 3.     The report of the Director-General must be tabled in  Parliament
     (page 21).


 4.     Under the heading "FINANCIAL IMPLICATIONS",  the  last  sentence
     should be omitted (page 34).