TUESDAY, 12 MARCH 2002 __

                PROCEEDINGS OF THE NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
                                ____

The House met at 14:00.

The Deputy Speaker took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayers or meditation.

ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS - see col 000.

                          NOTICES OF MOTION

Mr T M GONIWE: Madam Speaker, I shall move on behalf of the ANC:

That the House -

(1) notes that the people of Zimbabwe went to presidential elections on 9, 10 and 11 March 2002;

(2) further notes that -

   (a)  there was a high turnout of eligible voters;


   (b)  there were very few and isolated incidents of violence; and


   (c)  the voting on these days was characterised by calm and peace;

(3) commends -

   (a)  the people of Zimbabwe for casting their votes in  big  numbers;
       and


   (b)  the role played by all observer missions in ensuring  peace  and
       calm during the election days; and

(4) reiterates our call that the people of Zimbabwe must work towards the reconstruction and development of their country.

[Applause.]

Mrs S V KALYAN: Madam Speaker, I hereby give notice that I shall move on behalf of the DP:

That the House -

(1) welcomes Judge Botha’s decision that the Government must give nevirapine to all HIV-positive pregnant women who have been tested and counselled, pending the outcome of an appeal to the Constitutional Court;

(2) recognises that the appeal could take up to a year and that at least ten babies a day could die if this ruling is not implemented;

(3) acknowledges that the Western Cape, under the guidance and leadership of Tony Leon and Gerald Morkel, was the first province to make these drugs widely available in all state facilities; and

(4) welcomes the support of former President Nelson Mandela in this life- saving endeavour.

[Applause.]

Mr V B NDLOVU: Madam Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the IFP:

That the House -

(1) applauds the SAPS for launching the campaign dubbed ``Project Stolen Goods’’ aimed at stopping the market for stolen goods among individuals and businesses;

(2) notes that this campaign aims at getting people to mark their goods with a view to identifying and reclaiming them when they get stolen;

(3) hopes that the communities will support this campaign by marking their goods and by resoundingly saying - ``No to stolen goods’’ through their refusal to buy them; and

(4) pledges its unqualified support to the SAPS in its campaign to fight crime.

Mr A MLANGENI: Madam Speaker, I shall move on behalf of the ANC:

That the House -

(1) notes that -

   (a)  President  Mbeki  hosted  yet  another  successful  Presidential
       Sports Awards ceremony on Friday; and


   (b)   this  event  was  a  watershed  for  deserving  sportsmen   and
       sportswomen  who  have  excelled   in   their   various   sports
       disciplines;

(2) commends -

   (a)  President Mbeki for honouring our sports heroes and heroines  in
       this befitting manner; and


   (b)  the Minister of Sport and Recreation, Ngconde Balfour,  for  his
       unwavering commitment to sports development; and

(3) congratulates -

   (a)  the recipients of Friday's Presidential Sports Awards; and


   (b)  our golfer Ernie Els for his storming stroke play in winning the
       Dubai Desert Classic on Sunday.

[Applause.]

Dr S J GOUS: Mev die Speaker, hiermee gee ek kennis dat ek sal voorstel:

Dat die Huis kennis neem -

(1) van die Hooggeregshof se uitspraak dat die regering anti-retrovirale middels aan alle MIV-positiewe swanger vroue by staatshospitale op aanvraag moet verskaf;

(2) dat die uitspraak onmiddellik tot uitvoer gebring moet word ongeag die regering se appèl na die Konstitusionele Hof;

(3) dat dit die lewens van ten minste 100 babas op ‘n dag kan red;

(4) dat dit die voorkoms van MIV/Vigs in Suid-Afrika aansienlik kan verminder; en

(5) dat die Nuwe NP die verskaffing van anti-retrovirale middels ten volle ondersteun en ‘n beroep op die regering doen om hulle beleid sodanig aan te pas. Dit is lankal nie meer ‘n opsie nie, maar ‘n noodsaaklikheid. (Translation of Afrikaans notice of motion follows.) [Dr S J GOUS: Madam Speaker, I hereby give notice:

That the House notes -

(1) the judgment by the Supreme Court that the Government must provide antiretroviral drugs on demand to all HIV-positive pregnant women at state hospitals;

(2) that the judgment must be carried out immediately irrespective of the Government’s appeal to the Constitutional Court;

(3) that it can save the lives of at least 100 babies in one day;

(4) that it can significantly decrease the incidence of HIV/Aids in South Africa; and

(5) that the New NP fully supports the provision of antiretroviral drugs and appeals to the Government to adjust their policy accordingly - for a long time it has not been an option, but a necessity.] Ms A VAN WYK: Madam Speaker, I give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move:

That the House -

(1) notes that President Mbeki promised last year that a commission investigating the electoral system in South Africa, headed by Mr Van Zyl Slabbert, would soon be appointed;

(2) further notes that this commission has yet to be appointed or provided with terms of reference;

(3) supports mechanisms that make public representatives more accountable to their voters and hence supports the idea of a version of a constituency-based electoral system;

(4) acknowledges that the next elections are less than two years away and that changes to the electoral system will have to be implemented before that time; and (5) urges Government to appoint and provide terms of reference to the Van Zyl Slabbert Commission as a matter of urgency, in the interests of free and fair elections in 2004.

Mr R J B MOHLALA: Madam Speaker, I hereby give notice that I shall move on behalf of the ANC:

That the House -

(1) notes the report that the South African Post Office will pump close to R45 million into the upgrading of rural post offices and underserviced areas;

(2) believes that this will result in improved post office services, especially in the rural areas; and

(3) welcomes the announcement made by Post Office Senior General Manager, Mr Bernard Magabe, as this will bring these post offices to the same standards as those in urban areas.

Mnr P J GROENEWALD: Mev die Speaker, hiermee gee ek kennis dat ek sal voorstel:

Dat die Huis daarvan kennis neem dat -

(1) President Mbeki tydens ‘n geleentheid waar spesiale toekennings aan sportmanne en -vroue gemaak is, gesê het dat Suid-Afrikaners vir die volgende paar jaar nederlae van nasionale spanne moet aanvaar in belang van die groter doel, naamlik die rassetransformasie van sport;

(2) hierdie uitlating van die President ‘n uiters negatiewe boodskap uitstuur na alle nasionale spanne, afrigters en sportadministrateurs, wat tans juis ‘n laagtepunt beleef wat prestasie betref, en wat dit ook ‘n bespotting maak van internasionale sport waaraan Suid- Afrikaanse spanne deelneem;

(3) die regering eerder moet toesien dat alle sportmanne en -vroue van alle bevolkingsgroepe ongehinderd en met gelyke geleenthede aan die sport van hul keuse kan deelneem, om sodoende te verseker dat spankeuses op grond van verdienste gemaak word en dat die beste beskikbare span dus in elke sport Suid-Afrika verteenwoordig; en

(4) die Vryheidsfront ‘n beroep doen op alle Suid-Afrikaanse sportspanne om nie nederlae te aanvaar in belang van rassetransformasie nie, maar om eerder daarna te streef om deur top prestasies te verseker dat Suid-Afrika steeds as een van die top sportlande in die wêreld gereken sal word. (Translation of Afrikaans notice of motion follows.)

[P J GROENEWALD: Madam Speaker, I give notice that I shall move:

That the House takes note that -

(1) at an occasion where special awards were presented to sportsmen and sportswomen, President Mbeki said that South Africans should accept defeats from national teams for the next few years in the interests of the greater aim, namely the racial transformation of sport;

(2) this remark from the President is sending a negative message to all national teams, coaches and sport administrators, who are all currently experiencing a low with regard to performance, which also makes this a mockery of international sport in which South African teams take part;

(3) the South African government should rather ensure that all sportsmen and sportswomen of all the population groups are able to take part in the sport of their choice without hindrance and with equal opportunity, to consequently ensure that team choices can be made on the basis of merit and that the best available team could therefore represent South Africa in every sport;

(4) the Freedom Front appeals to all South African sports teams not to accept defeat in the interest of racial transformation, but rather to strive, through top achievement, to ensure that South Africa is still respected as one of the top sporting countries in the world.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order! Hon member, your one minute is up. You only have one minute, and hon members know that.

Mr J P I BLANCHÉ: Madam Speaker, I hereby give notice that I shall move:

That the House -

(1) takes note of the fact that the Commonwealth failed at its recent conference to come out strongly on the side of human rights and the rule of law;

(2) deprecates this failure of leadership; and

(3) calls on the leaders of the Commonwealth to think again, because if this organisation remains quiet in the face of gross human rights abuses, it can serve no useful purpose for the people of member countries.

Ms P N MNANDI: Madam Speaker, I hereby give notice that I shall move:

That the House -

(1) notes that Telkom’s foreign partner, Thintana, has donated R30 million for teaching and training resources at 200 schools and at 18 new science and technology centres;

(2) further notes that this grant is targeting 200 historically disadvantaged schools and is meant to drastically improve performance in maths and science related programmes; and

(3) welcomes the grant made by Thintana as this will - (a) drastically increase the supply of workers with technological skills required by a growing economy; and

   (b)  further lead on  an  increase  in  much-desired  foreign  direct
       investment.

Mr T D LEE: Madam Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move:

That the House -

(1) regrets President Mbeki’s view that ``South Africans should accept losing international sporting competitions in the interests of racial transformation’’;

(2) recognises that the fighting spirit of Makhaya Ntini and Paul Adams in the cricket test against Australia demonstrate that talent transcends skin colour; and

(3) urges the Government to encourage a winning culture in South Africa, instead of undermining it, by supporting the efforts of sports bodies to identify and develop talent amongst young black sportsmen and women so that they can compete with the best in the world.

Mr M A MZIZI: Madam Speaker, I shall move on behalf of the IFP:

That the House -

(1) notes that -

   (a)  the international standards used  by  the  Department  of  Water
       Affairs and Forestry for  recreational  water  state  that  such
       water should contain a maximum of 150 faecal coliforms  per  100
       ml sample;


   (b)   a  sample  taken  from  the   Jukskei   River   near   Wynberg,
       Johannesburg, in February  2002  contained  2,8  million  faecal
       coliforms per 100 ml; and


   (c)  the count at other points along the river ranged between 700 and
       300 000 faecal coliforms per 100 ml; and

(2) calls on the relevant national, provincial and local authorities to urgently address the state of water in rivers around Johannesburg, Gauteng.

Ms E NGALEKA: Madam Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move:

That the House -

(1) notes that the Government plans to amend the Films and Publications Act and to tighten child pornography laws to make it easier for authorities to act against those caught viewing such images;

(2) believes that there is a direct link between pornography and child abuse cases, as many people who view these materials tend to abuse children; and

(3) welcomes the announcement made by the Deputy Minister of Home Affairs, hon Charles Nqakula, as this will play a significant role in minimising cases of child abuse.

Mnr J J NIEMANN: Mev die Speaker, hiermee gee ek kennis dat ek op die volgende sittingsdag van die Huis sal voorstel:

Dat die Huis -

(1) met ontsteltenis kennis neem van die grootskaalse sindikaatbedrog wat in die Padongelukkefonds oopgevlek is;

(2) meen dat die skuldiges sonder aansien des persoons aan die man gebring en vervolg moet word; en

(3) die Minister van Vervoer versoek om nou die politieke verantwoordelikheid te neem en toe te sien dat kundigheid vanuit die privaatsektor aangewend word om die finansiële bestuur sowel as die administrasie van die Fonds oor die interimtermyn te behartig totdat die verslag van die regterlike kommissie oor die bestuur van die Fonds ter tafel gelê is. (Translation of Afrikaans notice of motion follows.)

[Mr J J NIEMANN: Madam Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move

That the House -

(1) notes with dismay the large-scale syndicate fraud that has been exposed in the Road Accident Fund;

(2) is of the opinion that the guilty parties must be caught and prosecuted, without fear or favour; and

(3) requests the Minister of Transport now to take political responsibility and see to it that expertise from the private sector is utilised to handle the financial management as well as the administration of the Fund in the interim until the report of the judicial commission on the management of the Fund is tabled.]

Mr J T MASEKA: Madam Speaker, on the next sitting day of the House I shall move:

That the House -

(1) notes the judgment in the Pretoria High Court yesterday that effect be given to its earlier ruling that the antiretroviral drug Nevirapine be given more widely to HIV-positive pregnant women;

(2) further notes that the major obstacle remains political and not administrative or medical;

(3) calls on the Minister of Health to dispel any rumours regarding an appeal by her department and to change national policy guidelines so that they are in line with this judgment, thereby benefiting all South Africans; and

(4) further calls on President Mbeki to stop wasting time while thousands of people die and to heed the advice of Madiba.

Mr Q J KGAUWE: Madam Speaker, I give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move:

That the House -

(1) notes reports that the MEC for Community Safety, Mr Leonard Ramatlakane, will conduct a survey to determine the kind of cases that are reported at police stations;

(2) further notes that surveys are aimed at improving service delivery in the area of safety and security;

(3) believes that the move by the MEC for Safety and Security, Mr Leonard Ramatlakane, reflects the commitment of his department and of the provincial government in improving service delivery for all the people of the Western Cape;

(4) welcomes the survey which the Department of Safety and Security is embarking on; and

(5) hopes that this will contribute positively to fighting crime in the province.

                  CONGRATULATIONS TO MIRIAM MAKEBA

                         (Draft Resolution)

The DEPUTY CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Madam Speaker, I move without notice:

That the House -

(1) notes that -

   (a)  Miriam Makeba turned 70 on Monday, 4 March 2002; and


   (b)  she is the first African singer to receive the  Poros  Award  by
       the Swedish government in  recognition  of  her  achievement  in
       music;

(2) believes that Miriam Makeba played an important role in raising the awareness of the international community about the struggle of the people of South Africa for freedom, peace and security; and

(3) congratulates ``Mama Africa’’ on this historic achievement and wishes her many happy returns.

[Applause.]

Agreed to.

   CONGRATULATIONS TO SOUTH AFRICAN WINNER OF MISS INDIA WORLDWIDE

                         (Draft Resolution)

Mr D H M GIBSON: Madam Speaker, I hereby move without notice:

That the House -

(1) notes that -

   (a)  Ms Sarika Sukdeo of Chatsworth  in  KwaZulu-Natal  has  won  the
       title of Miss India Worldwide 2002;


   (b)  this is the first time since the inception of the competition 10
       years ago that it has been won by a South African; and


   (c)  this is an honour for South Africa which is home to the  largest
       Indian population outside of India; and

(2) congratulates Ms Sukdeo on her achievement and wishes her well during her reign.

[Applause.]

Agreed to.

                  SOCIAL GRANTS APPROPRIATION BILL

                           (Introduction)

The MINISTER OF FINANCE: Madam Speaker, hon members, in the President’s state of the nation address on 8 February, as well as in the Budget Speech of 20 February, reference was made to the need to support the Department of Social Development and provinces to deal with arrears in social grant payments which developed over the past three years.

The relevant arrears developed because provinces implemented regulations that we have now agreed are inequitable and which led to a set of inappropriate incentives in the administration of social pensions. The implementation of the regulations had the effect that poor South Africans who qualified for grants only received payment from the date of the approval of grants and not from the date that they applied and qualified. Where there were delays in processing and approval of grants, poor beneficiaries were not always paid for the period of delay. This certainly had severe negative effects on many poor households.

The relevant regulations in terms of the Social Assistance Act, 1992, have now been amended with effect from December 2001, with the result that beneficiaries are entitled to payment from the date of application, if they qualified on that date, and where there are delays in payment they will be entitled to payment for the period of the delay.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order! Hon members, could you please listen to the hon the Minister. The MINISTER: Government has, however, agreed that it is not sufficient to change the situation as we move forward and has acknowledged its debt to those grant beneficiaries who qualified for grant payments between April 1998 and December 2001. These people, about, 1,8 million who qualified for grants for the first time during that period, have to be compensated for the lapse of time between the application and approval.

The payment of these arrears is estimated to cost provincial welfare departments around R2 billion. This provides for current active cases, that is, people still receiving grants, inactive and lapsed cases, and some administrative expenditure. Provinces cannot be expected to foot this Bill from their equitable share as they implemented regulations as they stood in good faith, and therefore did not make budgetary provision for what subsequently became arrears owing.

The Social Grants Appropriation Bill of 2002 therefore provides for R2 billion to be allocated to the national Department of Social Development to dispose of this matter. The funding will flow from the department to provinces as a conditional grant to be used to implement payment of the arrears. Based on further verification of arrears owed by the different provinces, the amounts to flow to the different provinces, and conditions in this regard, will be gazetted in terms of the Division of Revenue Act, 2001.

The Bill therefore makes good Government’s undertaking to do the right thing in this case and to be sensitive to the plight of the poor and vulnerable. An implementation plan is currently being finalised and more details about payments will be communicated soon. It should be acknowledged that the payment of these arrears is a mammoth undertaking - R2 billion exceeds the normal monthly benefit payments - and that to do this right, without disruption of normal processes and without negative effects on beneficiaries, will require careful planning which will take some time. Our commitment to pay, and the funding to effect this, is made clear through the Social Grants Appropriation Bill. Our ability to make these payments derives from our success in establishing a sound and sustainable fiscal framework, and from improvements in tax administration. We cannot, in future, expect to be in such a fortunate position again. And, in future, such unplanned impositions will impact on the delivery of other services. The President has indicated clearly that administrative failure, which, in addition to its harsh effect on poor South Africans causes budgetary uncertainty and has service delivery implications in other areas, cannot and will not be tolerated.

I hereby table the Social Grants Appropriation Bill, 2002. [Applause.]

Bill, together with the introductory speech, referred to the Portfolio Committee on Finance for consideration and report.

            BURUNDI PROTECTION SUPPORT APPROPRIATION BILL

                           (Introduction)

The MINISTER OF FINANCE: Madam Speaker, generally funds from the National Revenue Fund are appropriated in the annual Budget at the beginning of each financial year. In cases that warrant adjustment to budgets, such adjustment may be presented to Parliament, usually during September or October of the relevant financial year.

However, the national legislature accepted that there could be urgent cases where the general budget process would be too restrictive. In terms of section 16 of the Public Finance Management Act of 1999, the Minister of Finance was therefore empowered to authorise the use of funds from the National Revenue Fund to defray expenditure of an exceptional nature which is not provided for and which cannot, without serious prejudice to the public interest, be postponed to a future parliamentary appropriation of funds.

The more pertinent limitations to this power are, firstly, that the combined amount of any such authorisations may not exceed 2% of the total amount appropriated in the annual national Budget for the current financial year; secondly, that the amount authorised must be reported to Parliament and to the Auditor-General, usually within 14 days, but in the case in question, within a period determined by the President as the funds were required for the deployment of the security services; and, thirdly, that the expenditure must be included in appropriation legislation within 120 days of the date that the expenditure was authorised.

In terms of the UN Security Council Resolution 1286, of January 2001, the appointment of former President Nelson Mandela as a new facilitator of the Arusha peace and reconciliation process to achieve a peaceful solution to the conflict in Burundi was strongly supported.

South Africa was accordingly requested to contribute military personnel to perform protection tasks for the returning exiled leaders, before the inauguration of the interim government in Burundi. A memorandum of understanding was signed with the Burundi government. The President, in terms of the powers vested in him by the Constitution and the Defence Act, on 26 October 2001, authorised the deployment of protection support services to returning opposition leaders participating in the transitional government in Burundi. The deployment of 701 troops commenced on 28 October 2001.

Funds for the deployment were not provided for in the Department of Defence’s budget. On 12 February this year, in terms of the powers vested in me by section 16(1) of the Public Finance Management Act, I authorised the use of an amount not exceeding R130 million for the Burundi deployment. This allocation was announced in the Budget Speech made on 20 February. This dedicated appropriation Bill is therefore required to put the Department of Defence in a position to deal with this unexpected expenditure.

Despite initial indications that Ghana, Senegal and Nigeria would be involved in providing additional troops, it is not anticipated that this will realise in the near future. The Department of Defence will therefore be involved in this operation for the best part of the new fiscal year, at least for eight months. However, the actual duration of the deployment is dependent on the effective functioning of the transitional government and the progress of the peace process.

Reports from Burundi indicate that the members of the SANDF have been well received by the local population. This has created the possibility that South Africa might be requested to provide additional protection support, should the need arise.

The projected expenditure for the current fiscal year will amount to R129,7 million, made up of personnel allowances, equipment and facilities, medical consumables and equipment, sustainment and aircraft chartering and transporting. An amount of R270 million has been allocated in the budget for the new fiscal year to finalise the project. The international community has made pledges amounting to R266 million, of which R17 million has been received. Agreements with the European Union, Belgium and the Netherlands have been finalised, while the agreement with the UK is at an advanced stage. The USA is also considering making a contribution either in cash or in kind. Any funds received will be deposited into the National Revenue Fund.

I hereby introduce the Burundi Protection Support Appropriation Bill, 2002. [Applause.]

Bill, together with the introductory speech, referred to the Portfolio Committee on Finance for consideration and report.

                               RULING

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order! Hon members, before going to the next Order, I would like to dispense with a ruling from last week. On Wednesday, 6 March, the hon Nel raised a point of order about the hon Andrew’s reaction to being asked to withdraw an unparliamentary expression, during party responses to a statement by the hon the Minister of Health.

The hon Nel stated that he was under the impression that the hon Andrew had not withdrawn the unparliamentary expression, ``lying’’, as he had been instructed to by the Chair. He added that hon Mr Andrew had also said that the hon the Minister for the Public Service and Administration, while raising a point of order, had deliberately misled the House. He further claimed that the hon Andrew had shown contempt for the Chair and the House by the manner in which he left the House.

I undertook to examine the Hansard and give a ruling. And that is what I am doing now. Having now had the opportunity to study the unrevised Hansard, I want to rule as follows: The hon Mr Andrew did indeed withdraw the word lie'', as he had been instructed to. However, before withdrawing the word lie’’, he added that the hon the Minister was ``deliberately misleading’’ the House. That is unparliamentary. The hon Mr Andrew should not have tried to circumvent a ruling by the Chair by adding another unparliamentary remark. He must therefore withdraw that remark.

Mr K M ANDREW: Madam Speaker, I withdraw it. [Interjections.] If you are deaf, then that is your problem. [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order! I did hear the hon Andrew. Concerning the manner in which the hon Andrew left the House, he did not do so while the Chair was addressing him. So, I do not intend commenting further on that issue.

                       DEBATE ON AFRICAN UNION

Ms S D MOTUBATSE: Madam Speaker, the ANC supports the Constitutive Act of the African Union. History shows us that as Africans we should take charge and work for the development of our continent.

The theory of development shows that before industrialisation and the French Revolution, China and the Islamic Mamluke Sultanate were scientifically more advanced than Europe. In the twentieth century, Africa was characterised by famine, floods, hunger and diseases. The question we need to ask as this House is: why these drastic changes?

The answer points to colonialism which underdeveloped the continent in the twentieth century. Most classical writers were influenced and shocked by the French Revolution in the twentieth century, and were afraid because they had never seen political upheavals that brought chaos and disorder in that manner.

The revolution changed the political and social disorder which was never anticipated. I think in the minds of many people, they never thought that the system could change, and today, in this year 2002, here we are as South Africans and of course Africans. Together with the rest of the continent we are saying that we can change our situation.

Many people think that Africa will never change, and some even believe that she has been cursed by God. Others say that maybe she is cursed by ancestors. During the millennium debate in this House our President said: The picture we would paint of that future would also constitute our commitment to work and to ensure that we transform what may seem to be a dream into a new reality.

When the OAU was formed most people did not believe in it. It was seen as a far-fetched dream that Africans can be freed. It was a dream to fight colonial rule, but today Africa has attained its liberation. Today we are discussing the Constitutive Act of the African Union because we acknowledge that the first leg or terrain of the struggle has been completed, which was fighting colonialism. What we are saying today is that we have the next item on the agenda, which is liberating Africa from poverty and disease.

For the first time Africans can speak with one voice and say, even if I am English-speaking or Portuguese-speaking, whether I fala Portuguese, ablar Espanol, or paroski Kavarim, what is important is that I am a human being.

This was also affirmed by the Durban conference, which agreed that in this world we only have one race which is the human race. We on this continent are saying that in spite of the different languages that we speak, we have one destiny, and as Africans we have to fight and ensure that we reach it.

We are saying that as Africans we must respect our borders, which concern the question of sovereignty, but let us work together for common aspirations that we have and ensure that we attain them.

Ga re nyake go tloša mellwane ya rena. Ga re nyake gore re be selo se tee seo se sa tsebalegego, eupša re nyaka go šomišana gore re hlabolle kontinente ye ya rena le gore kontinente ye ya rena e a hlomphega. Gape re swanetše go kwešiša selo se tee - gore Kopano ke Maatla! (Translation of Sepedi paragraph follows.)

[We do not want to remove our borders. We do not want to be one unwieldy entity, but we want to co-operate so that we may develop our continent and ensure that our continent is accorded the respect that it deserves. We also need to understand one thing, namely that Unity is Strength!]

If we unite at regional level, we can then emerge strongly at continental level. We do not know how Africa will look in ten to 12 years’ time from now. However, we should start somewhere in building this continent.

Ka sepedi re fela re re mpšapedi ga di šitwe ke sebata. Re a tseba gore ge re hlakanetše mošomo, ge re na le letšema, re kgona go kgatha tema ka pela.

Ge re be re lebeletše Constitutive Act ye, re le Maloko a Palamente, go na le dilo tše ntši tšeo re bonego gore di bohlokwa. (Translation of Sepedi paragraphs follows.)

[In Sepedi we say that two dogs cannot be defeated by one wild animal. We know that when we work together, when we are part of a team, we are able to accomplish our task quickly.

When we studied this Constitutive Act, as members of Parliament, we noted a number of provisions that we regarded as crucial.]

We agreed that this Constitutive Act of the AU needed to be established. If we have a structure, then we will be able to implement Nepad. We see Nepad as a programme that can be carried out by the African Union. We must also thank our Deputy President, Comrade Jacob Zuma, for the work he is doing on the continent as a whole. He has just returned from Ethopia where he met with other leaders to discuss these issues. [Applause.]

Article 9 of the Constitutive Act of the AU deals with the powers and functions of the assembly. It clearly states that the African Union will be able to determine policies. This is a crucial point in that we can only hold countries accountable and monitor their progress if we are able to harmonise policies. The harmonisation of these policies is the key to ensuring that development takes place and that Nepad is implemented.

There is also a point about the orders that should be instituted by the African Union. It is not very clear where we place the Human Rights Commission at the moment. But, if the commission continues to work and establishes all the organs of the African Union, then we will know if democracy has been entrenched in some of these countries or whether the work of the African Human Rights Commission has been nullified. Article 14 also speaks of all these programmes that the African Union should carry out. When I look at all these structures, Nepad will obviously be alive and practical this way.

As South Africans we have experience on these issues. If members remember, in 1993-4, the ANC adopted the RDP document which became the Government’s programme. But, as a programme, a structure was needed which could guide us politically and take political responsibilities. As soon as the Government adopted this document, we managed to see changes even in the way that the Government dealt with its business. Through Nepad, African countries can involve communities in their countries to participate in decision-making. During the Abuja Conference, which was held in Nigeria in the year 2000, our President challenged the intelligentsia and business people to work together towards the development of their countries. There is definitely a lot for them to do now. If we look at the work that has to be carried out through Nepad, if these countries participate in all of these structures that are established, they will find some fulfilment in their work.

I also think that, as African women, we are ready to carry out some of the work, and we are working through our regional structures to ensure that this train does not leave us behind.

We are also happy because the participation of the Speaker and the Deputy Speaker of this Parliament has managed to change some of the things that were not carried out in the right way. We have seen that there are recommendations that are made to the whole clause, to articles of this important document, and we are hoping that with the support that they get from us as Parliament, and especially from the women of this country, we will be able to change the face of this document and this continent.

What is also important to us, as women, is to ensure that our participation brings more women from African countries to the decision-making bodies.

Mafelelong, mohlomphegi Speaker, rena re le basadi ba kontinente ye re nyaka go bona tlala e fedile. Re nyaka gore le rena ka ngwaga wo mongwe re lebelele morago, re tshwe mare a masesane, re bone gore le rena mohlako o re tlogetše. (Translation of Sepedi paragraph follows.)

[In conclusion, Madam Speaker, we, the women of this continent, want to see hunger eradicated. We would like, one day, to look back and say we have also triumphed over hardship.]

In conclusion, I must therefore say that the century is ours as African women and we are looking at it with positive minds. We know that we can bring about the rebirth of this continent. We are working towards the rise of this giant. We are not waiting on the side to see things happen, but we are ready to participate and make the necessary changes. Therefore, the ANC women support the Constitutive Act of the AU. [Applause.]

Mr C W EGLIN: Madam Speaker, in 1991 the heads of African states at a summit in Abuja in Nigeria, through the adoption of the Abuja Treaty, agreed to the concept of the African Union to replace the OAU in due course. It envisaged the setting up of the AU and all its organs, its administrative structures and protocols would be phased in over a period of some 34 years.

In 1999, at a summit in Sirte in Libya, the heads of states decided to speed up the process and proceeded, immediately, with the establishment of the core elements of the AU. In the year 2000, in Togo, another summit adopted the Constitutive Act of the AU, which would become effective upon ratification by two thirds of the states of Africa. By the year 2001 this ratification had taken place and the one-year period during which the OAU must be phased out in favour of the AU has commenced. In July this year the OAU will, in fact, be replaced by the AU and it will hold its first meeting here in Africa.

The question can be asked: Why replace the OAU with another African structure called the AU? When looking at the history, the OAU was formed in 1963 as an organisation of sovereign independent states which were united around the dominant political challenge of that time, and that was the challenge of liberating the whole of Africa from colonialism.

The challenge facing Africa in the new millennium has a different thrust. It is the socioeconomic challenge of development so that poverty can be rolled back, so that the countries and peoples of Africa can play a more meaningful part in shaping and sharing in the world economy. To put it simply, the thrust of the OAU was political, the thrust of the AU is going to be developmental. The emphasis of the OAU was, understandably, on sovereignty and independence. The emphasis of the AU is going to be on co- operation and interdependence. While the OAU may be able to point to many achievements, it has been singularly ineffective in those very areas which are of critical importance to Africa’s development. Those areas are, in particular, the resolution of conflict and the promotion of democratic governance. Thus it is envisaged that, in relation to the vast schedule of matters affecting development, the countries of Africa under the AU will become more integrated than they were under the OAU.

This concept of the AU is far-reaching and ambitious. It holds many potential advantages for the people of Africa. But there are bound to be problems and pitfalls in the path of its implementation.

This is going to demand that the AU has wise and strong leadership. And herein lies a problem in itself, because while the AU envisages a number of supporting structures and organs, the supreme organ of the AU will be the same heads of state, functioning under the same rotating chairpersonship that proved ineffective in leading the Organisation of African Unity in the past.

Some of these potential problems of implementation were identified by the Portfolio Committee on Foreign Affairs when it reported to Parliament last year, and that report was adopted by Parliament. The report said inter alia, when referring to the constitutive Act, that various clauses could be open to different interpretations; that various clauses appear to be contradictory; and that clauses may be interpreted as impinging upon the sovereignty of member states in the executive, legislative and judicial fields, more than is usual in the case of the formation of such a union.

But other problems were also identified at a very useful parliamentary forum held in the Old Assembly Chamber only last week. They are the following. There is a problem with the issue of financing the African Union with its multiplicity of structures, organs and personnel, in the light of the fact that a number of African states today appear to be unable to pay their annual dues to the Organisation of African Unity.

There are problems with integrating five existing regional economic communities, such as SADC, Ecowas and Comesa, which are already in existence, have their own structures, and are functioning under separate treaties and protocols.

The third problem is the absence of a provision for an organ to deal specifically with peace and stability, and the relationship between such a central organ and the overriding assembly.

The fourth problem is the need to create mechanisms to ensure that member states do, in fact, comply with the African Union’s core objectives and principles, especially in the fields of promoting peace and security, promoting democratic principles and institutions, and promoting human rights.

As the AU is structured as a top-down body, with only the Pan-African Parliament representing the citizens directly, we believe that the Pan- African Parliament should be brought into being as soon as possible and developed into a fully functioning parliament for the peoples of Africa.

However, one of the major problems will be the extent to which the African Union will override the sovereignty of states, especially in the field of policy formation and implementation. Any country that accedes to a union such as the AU must, by implication, be willing to cede a certain amount of sovereignty to that superbody.

But let us realise that the issue of sovereignty, even if it is only in the policy-making field, is an extraordinarily sensitive one. And the questions that are going to have to be answered are these: To what extent will governments be prepared to dilute their authority to make policy in favour of a body over which they have no control? To what extent will the people accept policies being made by a combination of other peoples’ governments and not by the government which they have elected and which is accountable to them? To what extent will countries be prepared to abandon policies that are working well for their people in favour of alternative policies with which they disagree? And what if policies decided upon by the AU come into direct conflict with the constitutions of individual countries?

Let me say, in this regard, that I for one, believe, in respect of South Africa, that we should never agree to a process that could result in any dilution of any one of our provisions of the Bill of Rights in our South African Constitution.

Finally, the issue of ceding sovereignty will have to be handled with great circumspection. I believe it might well be that the provisions of the constitutive Act and protocols that deal with these procedures might have to be revisited.

However, much will depend on the confidence that the constituent members of the people of Africa have in the integrity of the institutions of the African Union. This confidence must be nurtured and developed, but it cannot be taken for granted simply because the AU is there. A start must be made in building an effective AU.

However, let us tackle the problems that are bound to exist at the time when the organisation is formed. The AU must face up to these critical problems during its early stage of existence or run the risk that during the later stage it could well be overcome by these very problems. Above all, if Africa is going to develop, if Africa is going to share meaningfully in the world economy, it needs an AU in which the peoples of Africa trust and in which they have confidence. [Applause.]

Mr M F CASSIM: Madam Speaker, it is a pleasure for me to follow the hon member Colin. He has laid out, I think, some of the problems of which we should be particularly aware in respect of the establishment of the African Union. What is very interesting is that serving on the task team makes one feel that one is again in Codesa and the multiparty talks, because barely had we, as the representatives of people here, finished trying to transform our own country, before we became involved in a second exercise, that of attempting to transform politics on the continent.

It is very interesting that the African Union sees itself not as the impotent old OAU which it is replacing. It appears to be a more visionary, more far-sighted body than the one that it is replacing. The coming into being of the African Union, as we know, is imminent, therefore that is not the question. The questions that the hon member Eglin raised are the questions we should be engaged in.

The key organs that will be launched within weeks will be the following: the assembly, which will be made up of the heads of state, that is, the first body; the second body will be the executive council and this will be made up of the Ministers from the different countries; then, the very important commission which will actually be the secretariat; and; finally, the permanent representatives’ committee, which will be made up of ambassadors from the different countries. So it is envisaged that, in the first step, these four organs will come into being. At the Lusaka conference from 9 to 11 July 2001, it was suggested that a gradual approach be taken in the establishment of these organs and that these organs be invested with only initial powers. This is important, because they need to be able to act without being overly constrained. But it is imperative that the Pan-African Parliament comes into existence quickly enough, because we are now in a situation in world politics and in local politics in which the executive arm has to be given more and more power in order that they can effectively deliver, because if they are impeded in that they will not then be able to deliver.

Parliaments’ roles will be more and more to make sure that they exercise oversight, and to look at the budget and other policy documents. So the same thing will have to happen at the African Union, in that the union must allow the assembly, which is made up of heads of state, to take certain decisions. But the Pan-African Parliament will have to come into being fairly soon after the other organs are put in place.

The constitutive act does not spell out in detail the functions, powers and operational modalities. Once again, this will be left to the Pan-African Parliament to do. Therefore, it should be the view of our Parliament that the implementation of the Pan African Parliament is not be unduly delayed. In the interim, the draft rules of procedures that will be drawn up by heads of state will apply.

The assembly will also be required to do the following: to adopt certain rules; to make sure that they appoint judges if judges need to be appointed; to approve the budgets, and to authorise meetings. The assembly, which is the assembly of the heads of state, will meet annually for two days.

The problem that we have as South Africa, as a democracy where we encourage participation of the citizens in everything that we do, is that the African Union is suggesting that some of its procedures and some of its parliamentary Acts be done in secret, and many of us who are on the task group are not supportive of that at all. This is one of the things that we would like to flag and talk about in future.

Let us now focus on what will be replacing the secretariat, which is called the commission.

The commission has a number of important functions in order to accelerate political and socioeconomic integration. The moment we talk about political and socioeconomic integration, we ask ourselves: will this in any way jeopardise our own rights as a sovereign country? Will this impact in any way on our sovereignty?

The commission must also ensure that the common interests of Africa are given attention, that peace, security, democratic principles, human rights, sustainable development, research into science and technology, that all of these matters are given due and proper attention. The commission or secretariat will then be divided into focus or interest groups. Because of those focus or interest groups we would expect, as Parliament, to be interacting very closely, very soon, with this commission, in order that we may advance not only South Africa’s cause, but by the same token the cause of Africa itself.

We look forward to the establishment of the African Union.

Dr R H DAVIES: Madam Deputy Speaker, the project to build the African Union is firmly located within the long-standing Pan-African perspective, which seeks to promote economic, political, social and cultural integration between the states and peoples of our continent. Given the current reality of conflict in parts of our continent, the AU programme has an inevitable and necessary focus on issues of peace, security and political co- operation, but it is also firmly rooted in a vision of economic integration.

Indeed, the Sirte declaration adopted in 1999 at the summit, which agreed to speed up the process of transforming the OAU into the African Union, specifically indicated that this was intended, among other things, to accelerate the process of implementing the treaty to establish the African Economic Community. In my view the case for promoting African economic integration is an unassailable one. The first generation of independent African leaders realised that they had inherited from colonialism small fragmented economies, integrated into a global division of labour in subaltern roles as producers of cheap raw materials.

They realised that economic growth and development and industrialisation would require promoting economic unity on the continent. Developments since then have made that vision even more imperative. We are living in the midst of a process called globalisation. This has seen the rise of information and communications technology and ICT-derived knowledge as the driving force of rising productivity and accumulation. It is also a process that has seen the formation of, and integration of productive activity across the globe, into global networks. It has seen pressure for freer movement of capital and commodities across national borders and the strengthening of multilateral regulation. Various writers have compared the rise of informationalism with the industrial revolution in terms of its significance for the development of productive forces. But at the same time, and in my view integrated to the very same processes, globalisation has also been associated with growing inequality, marginalisation and social exclusion.

Africa clearly faces major challenges in dealing with all aspects of this process. Our continent is not well equipped to embrace the informational revolution. It is well known that there are more phone connections in the borough of Manhattan than there are on the whole of African continent. At the same time Africa has to grapple with the need to counter the fundamental trends towards marginalisation and exclusion, which are indeed most marked on our continent, which includes the majority of least developed countries in the world. Clearly greater economic unity can assist in meeting both aspects of this challenge.

But acknowledging the need to promote continental economic integration raises the need to address the fundamental question of how this should be done. Conventional economic integration theory focuses on the removal of tariffs and regulatory barriers to interregional trade. It envisages moving in linear succession up the so-called ladder of integration from a free trade area where tariffs are removed on trade between participants, to a customs union where there is internal free trade and a common external tariff on goods from third parties.

This is followed by a common market where there is free movement of labour and of capital, and then an economic union in which there is a high level of macroeconomic policy co-ordination and possibly also a monetary union. Finally, you end up with a political union which may take the form of a federation or confederation.

This theory, which broadly guided the process of European integration, has been criticised, and rightly so in my view, as inappropriate to regions which are characterised by underdevelopment, even though the reality is that it continues to inform a number of subregional integration efforts on our own continent.

The reality is that the major barriers to promoting economic integration in Africa are not just, or even primarily, tariffs and regulatory barriers, but also involve, more fundamentally, inadequate infrastructure and underdeveloped production structures.

An experts meeting that was held to discuss the topic of economic co- operation in December last year described progress in enhancing intra- African trade creation as ``dismal’’. The same report said that less than 10% of the continent’s trade was intra-African and that most of the subregion’s integration schemes were way behind schedule.

These grim realities underscore the case, in my view, for the adoption of a clear developmental approach towards promoting African economic integration. Setting out from a recognition that many of the major barriers to intraregional trade in underdeveloped regions arise from inadequate infrastructure and underdeveloped production structures, development integration theory argues for a greater emphasis at early stages on functional co-operation to promote infrastructural development and development of productive structures.

Nepad, with its emphasis on co-operation to address both conventional infrastructure backlogs, such as transport and communication, and in particular ICT-related backlogs, offers, in my view, a clear and appropriate vision to such functional co-operation.

But, we cannot avoid trade integration issues. Indeed, development integration argues that functional co-operation is necessary, precisely in order to lay a basis for effective integration. In our own concrete circumstances, we need to be aware that globalisation is promoting a rapid but uneven integration into a global economy.

In addition, there are specific developments arising from relations between African countries and important extraregional players that are very significant in this regard. The economic partnership agreements envisaged under the Cotonou agreement between the EU and the ACP, negotiations for which are due to begin in September this year, will begin, the European Union hopes, a process that will lead to reciprocal trade agreements with different ACP regions. In a paper which was presented at the workshop organised by the Speaker’s Office, the DTI pointed out that this process could result, if nothing was done, in South Africa trading on worse terms with, say, Kenya or Nigeria, than the European Union does. Clearly, this is an outcome which should be unacceptable. The same would apply to Kenyan trade with Nigeria, or even Tanzanian trade with Kenya.

As the DTI document argued, we will have to explore options to promote trade integration, which might include preferential co-operation agreements between subregional integration bodies, for example SADC and Ecowas, or a continent-wide free trade agreement.

In my view, we need from this Parliament to take forward into our own society and into the various intra-parliamentary bodies in which we are involved, a debate on the broader strategic approach to promoting economic co-operation and integration within the framework of the AU.

We need - and I think this is absolutely clear - a programme to accelerate development and co-operation on our continent. Greater clarity on the approach could underpin discussions about targets and decisions on institution-building within the AU. For example, clarity on a clear developmental perspective could inform a review of the appropriateness or otherwise of the vision to build a customs union on the African continent by the year 2025. It could also clarify the role which the African Central Bank, provided for in the Constitutive Act of the African Union, should play, which arguably should initially focus on promoting co-operation between individual central banks along the lines of the Finance and Investment Sector Co-ordinating Unit of SADC, rather than trying to champion some unrealistic and premature leap into monetary union.

I want to conclude by commending the presiding officers for taking this issue, which was referred to Parliament by the President, so seriously, and for creating opportunities for empowering us in Parliament to engage more effectively with it. I believe that we are only at the beginning of a process. This is likely to be the first of several debates on this issue, as we grapple with what will undoubtedly be vital issues for the development of our continent. [Applause.]

Mev A VAN WYK: Mev die Speaker, in ‘n kontinent waar naamveranderings en die verandering van simbole dikwels gebruik word om die aandag af te lei van die werklik kritieke uitdagings wat alle Afrikane in die gesig staar, verdien die poging om ware transformasie in Afrika teweeg te bring die steun van hierdie Parlement, want die oorgang van die OAE na die Afrika- unie is nie net bloot ‘n naamverandering nie. Dit is ‘n poging om deur middel van ‘n nuwe vaartbelynde organisasie die doelwitte van die Afrika Ekonomiese Gemeenskap, soos saamgevat in die Abuja Ooreenkoms, te versnel. Van hierdie doelwitte, wat eers oor ‘n tydperk van 34 jaar hul beslag sou kry, is onder meer: Sterk streeksekonomieë, vryhandelsgebiede, ‘n ekonomiese gemeenskapsmark, een geldeenheid en ‘n sentrale bank. In dié stadium moet sterk streeksekonomieë voorkeur geniet, want beter lewensomstandighede kan onder meer lei tot ‘n afname in konflik.

Tydens die werkswinkel wat onlangs gehou is, was die kommissie wat daarmee gehandel het dit eens dat politieke integrasie van die vasteland in dié stadium nie soseer gaan om ‘n formele struktuur soos ‘n federasie of konfederasie nie. Tans moet politieke integrasie eerder ‘n gevoel van samehorigheid uitdruk ten einde die gemeenskaplike uitdagings, soos byvoorbeeld. globalisering, die hoof te kan bied. En as ‘n mens dink dat die Portugese ontdekkingreise van ongeveer 500 jaar gelede en die vestiging op 20 Maart van die VOC, 400 jaar gelede, waardeur die moderne tydperk en ontwikkeling in die Ooste, Afrika en die Amerikas ingelei is, eintlik beskou kan word as die begin van globalisering, is dit nie voortydig vir hierdie Parlement om nou daadwerklik hieraan aandag te gee nie.

Die kwessie van soewereiniteit word nie voldoende in die Constitutive Act'' aangespreek nie en Suid-Afrika sal hom deeglik daarvan moet vergewis, aangesien sekere bepalings strydig met ons eie Grondwet kan wees - soos agb lede reeds gehoor het. Die wye magte van dieAssembly’’ - die vergadering van staatshoofde - is moontlik ‘n goeie voorbeeld. Die Nuwe NP wil daarom voorstel dat die ad hoc kommissie wat die bekragtiging van die protokol moet oorweeg, spesifiek ook ondersoek instel na die uitwerking van die ``Constitutive Act’’ op ons eie Grondwet en hoe dit slaan op die soewereiniteit van die Republiek.

Ten opsigte van soewereiniteit is artikel 4(g) en 4(h) van die Beginsels nie in stryd met mekaar nie, maar moet vertolk word ingevolge artikel 3(h) onder Doelwitte. Artikels 4(g) praat van ``non interference by any member state in the internal affairs of another’’.

Artikel 4(h) lui soos volg:

The right of the Union to intervene in a member state pursuant to a decision of the Assembly in respect of grave circumstances, namely war crimes, genocide and crimes against humanity.

Artikel 3(h) lui weer soos volg:

Promote and protect human and people’s rights in accordance with the African Charter of the UN and the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.

Met ander woorde, state kan hulle nie langer op soewereiniteit beroep en op nie-inmenging in huishoudelike sake wanneer hulle na hartelus menseregte vertrap nie. Hierdie beginsel het reeds gegeld toe die wêreld van mening was dat vorige Suid-Afrikaanse regerings hierdie regte geskend het en dit geld tans in die verhoor van Slobodan Milosovich. Eweneens behoort dit ook gelykberegtigend te geld ten opsigte van ‘n hele paar regerings ten noorde van ons. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)

[Mrs A VAN WYK: Madam Speaker, on a continent where name changes and the changing of symbols are often used to divert attention from the truly critical challenges which face all Africans, an attempt to achieve true transformation in Africa deserves the support of this Parliament. Because the transition of the OAU to the African Union is not merely a name change. It is an attempt to expedite the objectives of the African Economic Community, as contained in the Abuja Treaty, by way of a new streamlined organisation. Among these objectives, which were only to have been settled over a period of 34 years, are the following: strong regional economies, free-trade areas, an economic common market, one currency and a central bank. At this stage strong regional economies must receive preference because improved living conditions could, inter alia, lead to a reduction in conflict.

During the workshop held recently, the commission dealing with the matter agreed that political integration of the continent at this stage is not so much a matter of a formal structure like a federation or confederation. Currently, political integration should rather express a feeling of solidarity in order to be able to meet common challenges, such as globalisation, for example. And if one thinks that the Portuguese voyages of discovery approximately 500 years ago and the establishment on 20 March of the VOC, 400 years ago, by way of which the modern period and development in the East, Africa and the Americas were ushered in, can actually be viewed as the beginning of globalisation, it is not premature for this Parliament now truly to give attention to this.

The issue of sovereignty is not sufficiently addressed in the Constitutive Act and South Africa will have to be thoroughly familiar with it, as certain provisions could be in violation of our own Constitution - as hon members have already heard. The broad powers of the assembly - the meeting of heads of state - is possibly a good example. For this reason the New NP would like to propose that the ad hoc commission which has to consider the ratification of the protocol should also specifically investigate the effect of the Constitutive Act on our own Constitution and how it affects the sovereignty of the Republic.

With regard to sovereignty, sections 4(g) and 4(h) of the Principles are not in conflict with one another, but must be interpreted in terms of section 3(h) under Objectives. Section 4(g) talks about ``non - interference by any Member State in the internal affairs of another’’. Section 4(h) reads as follows:

The right of the Union to intervene in a Member State pursuant to a decision of the Assembly in respect of grave circumstances, namely: war crimes, genocide and crimes against humanity.

Section 3(h) reads as follows:

Promote and protect human and peoples’ rights in accordance with the African Charter of the United Nations and the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.

In other words, states can no longer claim sovereignty and non-interference in domestic matters when they trample human rights at will. This principle was already valid when the world was of the opinion that former South African governments were violating these rights and it is still valid in the trial of Slobodan Milosovich. In the same way it should apply equally with regard to a number of governments to the north of us.]

In the light of the negative effect that these ongoing political transgressions have on our subregion, the protocol establishing the African Parliament must be ratified by our Parliament as soon as possible. In this, South Africa should play its natural leadership role in the region and encourage other signatories to follow suit. This ought to be implemented in terms of the constitutive act of the African Union, and not in terms of the Abuja Treaty.

Regarding our northern neighbours, the question should be asked whether all members of the OAU should automatically become members of the African Union, and whether censorship should not be applied from the beginning. The New NP feels that everyone should, indeed, become a member, but that the Commission for People’s and Human Rights, in terms of the African Charter on People’s and Human Rights, should then actually be applied to discipline future transgressors of human rights. This commission should become an organ of the African Union.

Mr W G MAKANDA: Madam Speaker, the emerging African Union can became an instrument of African development and advancement in all spheres of society if member states and their leaders have the political will to make it work.

First we must identify the weaknesses that have impeded the OAU from carrying out its mandate, and have turned it into a moribund talk-shop with no clear direction and no clout. The OAU evolved as a postcolonial African institution that sought to give substance to African political independence. It did not have the capacity to extricate the continent from the stranglehold of economic, social and spiritual dependence which emanated from the colonial and postcolonial power relations between the developed north and the underdeveloped south.

The decolonization policies of the European powers handed down a legacy of parallel corridors in which they conduct business between themselves and their erstwhile colonies with no horizontal infrastructural and economic linkages between the newly independent former colonies themselves. This has retarded the evolution of a common vision and a binding sense of Africanness and commitment to take the African revolution forward beyond the Africanisation of the political institutions to the transfer of economic power to the African masses, not just the new political elite and its intelligentsia.

The African Union must be driven by a new vision. Central to this vision is the uncompromising and radical transformation of the economic power relations that will enable Africa to freely and fully develop its economic, social, spiritual, cultural and intellectual potential.

The African Renaissance would be the vehicle of this renewal provided it assumes the essence of a truly liberating force. For the renaissance to have any relevance, it must be truly revolutionary, engulfing the entire African continent at the grassroots, just as the 16th century Renaissance, the French Revolution, the Cuban and the Chinese revolutions and the Great Emancipation were, to mention but a few.

We cannot gloss over the reality of the complexity and the deeply rooted inequalities of the modern world order that have been handed down as a legacy of the African slave trade, a world trade based on colonialism and a globalised economy of unequal and uneven development. In his book entitled Poverty of Philosophy, Karl Marx wrote:

Without slavery no cotton; without cotton, no modern industry. It is slavery which has made the colonies valuable; the colonies have created world trade; world trade is the necessary condition of large-scale machine industry.

This is the foundation on which the present-day African continent is built.

It should be clear therefore that the socioeconomic structure of the world order and, therefore, Africa, is based on the social interests of the powerful global formations. These interests groups are not moved by maudlin sentimentalism about African misery and suffering, unless it threatens their own survival. African renewal will not be realised through appeals to the European Union, North America or the G8. Their helping hand can only serve their own interests, not those of Africa. We must therefore develop Africa’s capacity, self-sufficiency, and intellectual and spiritual liberation.

Africa has an abundance of untapped resources which must be developed by the Africans themselves. What we need is education and skills, and the will and the confidence in self-reliance.

Let us develop the African infrastructure and internal continental trade in order to create African capacity. To achieve this we should not be closing down black universities and tertiary institutions which give access to education to previously disadvantaged communities and yet preserve formerly white, privileged institutions. The fact that these black institutions have apartheid origins does not divest them of educational value and accessibility to disadvantaged communities who would be marginalised if these institutions were closed or watered down.

Africa must develop institutions that guarantee broad national participation and that are endorsed by the people on the ground. The interests of the people must be paramount and drive African governance. Once we embrace this concept, there will be no room for greed, megalomania and the scourge of war that blight our continent.

Let me conclude by quoting one of our own homegrown African scholars. [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order! I regret you do not have time to quote, hon member. Your time has expired. [Laughter.] [Applause.]

Adv Z L MADASA: Madam Deputy Speaker, there is no doubt about the desirability of restructuring the OAU, because it has outlived its purpose.

The time has surely come for the African continent to work together towards the development of its people. The Constitutive Act of the African Union establishes the union with the various organs to support it. The most important departure the union has introduced is the principle of good governance to which member states agree to be bound. Accedence to the union by member states is therefore a conscious decision to adhere to certain values and standards of good governance. It is also an acceptance by member states that resort to the usual arguments of sovereignty, when the principles of the union are violated, will not prevail. The Constitutive Act of the African Union is therefore cast in developmental terms instead of protectionism.

In an ideal situation the formal coming into being of the union should have been preceded by economic integration. This would have incentivised member states to co-operate on clear and developmental advantages. Member states would have realised that non-co-operation would have negative consequences for their economies.

The reality, though, is that globalisation poses a real danger of marginalising the continent and its people if they do not work together. This and other immediate challenges has necessitated the acceleration of the establishment of the union. This means that a politically driven union is the only viable mechanism to ensure that integration takes place soon.

An issue that has been raised is whether member states of the OAU should be allowed to join the union as they are at present, taking into account that the Constitutive Act of the African Union is restrictive on membership. I am of the opinion that in order to ensure that the union takes off, it must be borne in mind that time is needed for member states to adjust to the new rules. Strict adherence to the Act of the Constitutive African Union before joining will defeat the ends of the union. [Applause.]

Dr P W A MULDER: Madam Deputy Speaker, the late President Kwame Nkrumah of Ghana, in the late 1950s started a movement which stressed the immediate unity of the African continent. He believed that the continent should be united to make it less vulnerable to outside influence. Thus in May 1963, 32 independent African states came together in Addis Ababa, Ethiopia, to create the Organisation for African Unity.

As daar vandag na die geskiedenis van die OAE van 1963 tot in die negentigerjare gekyk word, blyk dit dat die agenda jaarliks by die OAE- byeenkomste oorheers is deur die geveg teen kolonialisme, die geveg teen apartheid en om Afrika se rol in die Koue Oorlog te bepaal.

Tydens die Koue Oorlog het Afrika en die Derde Wêreld die belangrike balans tussen die Weste en die Oosblok Kommunistiese lande gehou. Dit het aan Afrika meer invloed as wat sy politieke mag was, gegee. Die OAE se vergaderings is dus oorheers deur kritiek teen die koloniale moondhede, teen die Weste wat vir al Afrika se probleme van daardie tyd geblameer is.

In 2002 bevind ons in Afrika ons in ‘n totale nuwe wêreld. Dit maak ‘n nuwe organisasie vir die nuwe Afrika soos die Afrika Unie noodsaaklik. Gesien vanuit die OAE se oogpunt is die stryd teen kolonialisme en apartheid afgehandel. Die Koue Oorlog is verby, met Amerika as die wêreld se hoofrolspeler wat nie meer lyk of hy Afrika andersins nodig het nie. Afrika het nou nuwe leiers met ‘n nuwe organisasie nodig wat die nuwe uitdagings kan aanpak. Waar President Mugabe en die OAE deel van die ou Afrika is, wil die VF hoop dat President Mbeki en die Afrika Unie deel van die nuwe Afrika is, wat op realistiese wyse die probleme van Afrika sal aanpak.

Die ou styl van ou leiers van Afrika is soos duskant in Zimbabwe gesien word met President Mugabe wat almal blameer vir sy probleme - die Britte, die boere, al maak die boere minder as 1% van die bevolking uit. Ons is nou moeg daarvoor dat alles altyd geblameer word na daardie kant toe. Daarom kort ons - en sal die VF dit graag ondersteun - ‘n nuwe organisasie, die Afrika Unie, wat suksesvol die huidige probleme realisties sal aanpak en dit deurvoer na die anderkant op ‘n moderne wyse, en nie vashaak in die ou dae se blameertegnieke nie. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)

[If we look at the history of the OAU today, from 1963 up until the nineties, it seems that annually the agenda at the OAU meetings were dominated by the fight against colonialism, the fight against apartheid and to determine Africa’s role in the Cold War.

During the Cold War, Africa and the Third World maintained the important balance between the West and the Eastern block Communist countries. This gave Africa more influence than political power. The meetings of the OAU were therefore dominated by criticism against the colonial powers, against the West who were blamed for all Africa’s problems of that time period.

In 2002 the people of Africa find themselves in a totally new world. This makes a new organisation for Africa such as the African Union a necessity. Seen from the point of view of the OAU the struggle against colonialism and apartheid has been concluded. The Cold War is over, with America as the world’s chief roleplayer who does not seem to be needing Africa any longer. Africa now needs new leaders with a new organisation who can tackle the new challenges. Where President Mugabe and the OAU are part of the old Africa, the FF would like to hope that President Mbeki and the African Union would be part of the new Africa, who will address the problems of Africa in a realistic manner.

President Mugabe of Zimbabwe is an example of the old style of old leaders of Africa who blames everyone for his problems - the British, the farmers - even though the farmers only comprises 1% of the population.

We are now tired of the fact that everything is always blamed on that side. Therefore we need - and the FF will gladly support this - a new organisation, the African Union, which would successfully address the current problems in a realistic way and carry it through to the other side in a modern manner, and not get entangled in the blaming techniques of the old days.]

Mr M T MASUTHA: Madam Speaker, his Excellency the Deputy President, hon Ministers and fellow members of this august House, allow me at this occasion of the debate on the African Union to commence by congratulating the peoples of Zimbabwe for successfully conducting a peaceful election over the weekend … [Applause.] … amidst severe scepticism expressed in the media and elsewhere that such an event would not occur without violence and intimidation. I am sure I speak on behalf of many of our peaceloving people.

Mr G B D McINTOSH: All the blind!

Mr M T MASUTHA: I also wish to express our unqualified support of the people of the Democratic Republic of Congo during these challenging times of seeking lasting peace through negotiation rather than through armed conflict and the use of force. In addition, the recent events in Angola offer a real opportunity for the complete elimination of conflict in our region and on our continent, which is a prerequisite for prosperity. I also wish to express to our Deputy President that we missed him during the President’s debate, as he was continuing the work of pursuing peace in Africa.

During his state of the nation address last month, the President alluded to the anticipated hosting on our soil of two summit meetings of great significance to Africa and the world, namely the founding summit meeting to launch the African Union in July and the World Summit on Sustainable Development in August/September this year. He further stated that the summit meeting of the African Union, which in addition to launching the African Union will among other things also address the critical challenge of securing lasting peace and stability, and good economic and political governance in Africa, will also consider specific programmes which will be implemented through Nepad, to ensure development programmes which are central to the objectives of the elimination of poverty and underdevelopment in Africa.

It is ironic that Africa, the very cradle of humanity and kindergarten of human civilisation, as confirmed by the evidence of exquisite bone tools and delicately made spear points more than 70 000 years ago, and the spectacular find of a slab of ochre engraved with abstract designs 77 000 years ago, gathered from the Blombos Cave, emerges from a history summarised by the President in his inaugural speech of 16 June 1999, as follows, and I quote:

As Africans, we are the children of the abyss, who have sustained a backward march for half a millennium.

We have been a source for human slaves. Our countries were turned into the patrimony of colonial powers. We have been victim to our own African predators.

If this is not merely the wish being father to the thought, something in the air seems to suggest that we are emerging out of the dreadful centuries which in the practice, and in the ideology and consciousness of some, defined us as subhuman.

The launching of the African Union, which comes at the dawn of a new century and millennium, will, hopefully, usher in a new beginning in Africa. The African Renaissance formally puts to rest the tumultuous past of Africa, marred by many wars, armed conflicts and violence, the evidence of which manifests itself in the many people who have lost their limbs, vision, hearing and, in certain instances, even mental abilities. It is an unenviable past that is characterised by elements of despotism, autocracy, gross human rights violations, disregard for the sanctity of human life and anarchy, which we Africans are challenged to make a thing of the past.

The Constitutive Act of the African Union, ratified on behalf of the people of this country by this House some time last year, provides the institutional foundation on which the African Union will be built. Amongst the difficult political questions reflected in this founding document is the tension between the need to preserve and protect the sovereignty, territorial integrity and independence of member states of the union on the one hand, and the promotion of the political and socioeconomic integration of the continent, based on the universal recognition of the values of human and peoples’ rights on the other.

The promotion of democratic principles and institutions, popular participation and good governance are amongst the ideas espoused in this document. A unique feature of this Act is the recognition of the role of the people, and not merely that of states as political institutions. Our own experience in South Africa during the drafting of the Constitution was characterised by unprecedented direct public participation, with both ordinary citizens and organs of civil society afforded ample opportunity to contribute towards the shaping of our own Constitution, which today we are all proud of.

While the Constitutive Act of the African Union represents the culmination of extensive negotiation between states, more work needs to be done to ensure the popularisation of this instrument amongst ordinary people and to ensure that the people of this continent assume full ownership thereof.

The establishment of the economic, social and cultural council as an advisory organ composed of different social and professional groups of the member states of the union established in terms of article 22 of the Constitutive Act of the African Union will, it would appear, ensure not only the inclusion of questions of human and social development on the agenda of the union, but also the institutionalised participation of organs of civil society entrusted with the task of advancing these issues.

The recognition of the African Charter on Human and Peoples’ Rights and other human rights instruments, such as the African Charter on the Rights and Welfare of the child, as well as the provision for the establishment of an African court of justice in terms of the Constitutive Act of the African Union, offers a real opportunity to safeguard the rights of the people of Africa in a new dispensation to be ushered in by the establishment of the union.

The establishment of the African Union creates a real opportunity for sustainable development on the continent as a whole, by not merely recognising but also fostering the economic and social integration of the peoples of the continent. The African Union will help to reduce not only the socioeconomic disparities among African nations, but also within nations and communities of Africa.

The union also offers a real opportunity for economic, social and cultural exchange among the peoples of the continent which will help foster harmony and compassion, and help eradicate negative attitudes such as xenophobia, tribalism and nepotism so as to achieve true African values of Ubuntu. [Applause.]

Dr S E M PHEKO: Madam Speaker, the African Union is a product of the Pan- Africanist philosophy, which is called Pan-Africanism. The major purpose of the Pan Africanist vision were to protect the vital interests of Africa, see that its riches benefited the African people, and ensure the collective security and survival of the people of Africa, who have been victims of slavery, colonialism and racism. The main objectives of the African Union must be the industrialisation and development of Africa’s economy, the modernisation of her agriculture, and the maintenance of peace and stability on the continent. The African Union must stop exporting Africa’s raw materials and then importing them back, at exorbitant prices, as finished products from Europe and America. Modern science and technology must be prioritised in Africa’s institutions of learning. The African Union must be careful not to create a new dependency. The dependency of Nepad on G8 countries - the former colonisers of Africa - is aggravated by the conditionalities imposed on Africa. They enslave Africans, rather than help them to be self-reliant and strong economically, and to advance technologically.

Nepad must not be an unequal partnership. Africa is expected to change her policies, but the former colonisers upon which Nepad is to depend financially do not show signs of change. Debt cancellation is one area that would signal the good faith of G8 countries towards equalising power relations with Africa. A massive transfer of technology to and training in Africa would create a meaningful partnership between Africa and the G8.

The PAC supports the Constitutive Act of the African Union, but urges the African Union to reaffirm the Lagos Plan of Action and the African Peoples’ Consensus as pointing the way, which can deliver genuine development to African people and ensure their self-reliance and genuine independence.

Miss S RAJBALLY: Madam Speaker, the continent of Africa has found itself a victim of colonialism. Organisations such as the Organisation of African Unity, the OAU, served as a mechanism of recovery from this period of horror in which the continent was raped of its assets and its people exploited.

After many decades and hard work on efforts to correct and re-establish Africa, the MF welcomes the African Union. The running of South Africa is much affected by the rest of Africa and vice versa, as recently noted in the fluctuation of our rand.

The African Union certainly has good aims and objectives for Africa. Betterment of Africa would certainly be brought about by a union of African nations working together towards attaining the values and norms of the OAU and the AEC.

The MF supports the promotion of unity, cohesion and co-operation among the people of Africa and African states. This would influence further liberation and development, and lead to a situation within Africa where problems are tackled in a more organised, effective and efficient manner.

The African Union will not only be the backbone of Africa but, having to attend to internal matters in a more organised manner, will also assist Africa’s performance and recognition globally. That would, hopefully, give us an advantage and render us a strong force to contend with.

The MF recognises the contribution the African Union can make towards Africa’s internal and international development and advancement. The African Union is determined to promote and protect human and peoples’ rights, to consolidate democratic institutions and culture and to ensure good governance and the rule of law. The MF applauds the African Union and supports its endeavours. [Applause.]

Mr C AUCAMP: Mev die Speaker, die voorloper van die Afrika-unie, die OAE, is in Mei 1963 in die lewe geroep deur 31 onafhanklike Afrikastate, met vier doelstellings: om eenheid tussen Afrikastate te bewerkstellig; om die res van die vasteland van kolonialisme en apartheid te bevry; om vrede in Afrika te bevorder en om ekonomiese en maatskaplike vooruitgang te verseker. Die eerste twee doelstellings het grootliks gerealiseer. Die groot uitdaging lê nou by vrede en ekonomiese vooruitgang. Dit kan ook saamgevat word in die visie van ‘n Afrika renaissance, soos vergestalt in die Nepad-program.

Waar iemand soos Kwame Nkrumah veral klem gelê het op die politieke bevryding, is die ekonomiese bevryding nou op die agenda. Die vraag is egter of Afrika op koers is na hierdie doelstellings. Gemeet aan die doelstellings van vrede en ekonomiese voortuitgang skiet Afrika ver te kort. Om voortdurend Afrika se probleme toe te skryf aan die eerste twee wat reeds gerealiseer het, word eenvoudig nie meer aanvaar nie en Afrika moet nou self verantwoordelikheid aanvaar. Die OAE huldig die standpunt dat regerings wat nie op demokratiese wyse aan bewind gekom het nie, se lidmaatskap geskrap moet word.

Nou lê die groot toets voor: Wat van ‘n regering wat op ondemokratiese wyse aan bewind gebly het? Na alle verwagting gaan mnr Mugabe hierdie week aangewys word as die president van Zimbabwe. Hoe het hy dit reggekry? Hy het dit gedoen met geweld, intimidasie, verkragting van alle beginsels van die regstaat, en manipulering van die verkiesingsproses. Wat gaan die AU doen ten opsigte van Zimbabwe? Enige hoop van ekonomiese voortuitgang in Afrika sal ‘n ydele droom bly, solank as wat maghebbers soos Mugabe soos adders aan die Afrikaboesem vertroetel word.

President Mbeki het onlangs verwys na die sogenaamde ``collective punishment’’ van Afrikalande. Ander word gestraf vir die oortredings van een. Dit is bloot ekonomiese realiteit en Afrika moet hom van sulke mense distansieer. Afrika het nou ‘n geleentheid om homself te bewys, om te bewys dat hy ernstig is oor vrede en ekonomiese voortuitgang. Wat die Afrika-unie in die toekoms met ‘n onregmatig verkose president in Zimbabwe gaan doen, gaan in groot mate die toekoms van die AU en die vasteland bepaal. (Translation of Afrikaans speech follows.)

[Mr C AUCAMP: Madam Speaker, the predecessor of the African Union, the Organisation for African Unity, was established in May 1963 by 31 independent African states, and had four objectives: to forge unity among African states; to free the rest of the continent from colonialism and apartheid; to promote peace in Africa and to ensure economic and social progress. The first two objectives have largely been realised. The major challenge now lies in achieving peace and economic progress. This could also be summarised in the vision of an African renaissance, as embodied in the Nepad programme.

Where someone like Kwame Nkrumah laid particular emphasis on political liberation, economic liberation is now on the agenda. The question is, however, whether Africa is on course towards these objectives. Judged by the objectives of peace and economic progress Africa is falling very short. Continually to ascribe South Africa’s problems to the first two, which have already been realised, is simply no longer acceptable, and Africa itself must now accept responsibility. The OAU adheres to the standpoint that membership of governments that had not come into power in a democratic manner should be terminated.

Now the big test lies ahead: What about a government that has remained in power in an undemocratic manner? It is expected that Mr Mugabe will be appointed as the president of Zimbabwe this week. How did he do this? He did it by means of violence, intimidation, violation of every principle of the constitutional state, and manipulation of the election process. What is the AU going to do with regard to Zimbabwe? Any hope of economic progress in Africa will remain an empty dream as long as potentates like Mugabe are cherished like serpents in Africa’s bosom.

President Mbeki recently made reference to the so-called “collective punishment” of African countries. Others are punished for the transgressions of one. This is simply economic reality and Africa should distance itself from such people. Africa now has an opportunity to prove itself, to prove that it is serious about peace and economic progress. What the African Union is going to do with an unlawfully elected president in Zimbabwe in the future will to a great degree determine the future of the AU and the continent.]

Mr P J NEFOLOVHODWE: Madam Speaker, Azapo welcomes the adoption of the Pan- Africanist Parliament protocol and the establishment of the Pan-African Parliament. To many of us in this House, this is a very big step in the right direction.

We have seen groupings forming all around us. Azapo believes that this is the most important of them all, for the following reasons: Many problems of the continent of Africa will be resolved with concerted effort and a united voice.

The harmonisation of policies on these matters will, for the first time, afford Africa the ability to speak with one united voice.

Intra-African trade and commerce, as well as development, will take place at an accelerated pace. Certainly, Africa is now going to be able to enter into international trade agreements on a much stronger footing than before.

Azapo hopes that the stage of being only a consultative and advisory body will be for a short time, because we hope that it will grow into a real parliament with legislative, executive and judicial powers. Azapo is awaiting the day when all the bodies that constitute the African Parliament will be established so that we can participate in shaping the destiny of our country and our continent. After all, we are all Africans. [Applause.]

Ms T R MODISE: Madam Speaker, it seems we are all agreed that there is a need for Africa to get together. There is a need for us to begin to understand each other in Africa as equals. Therefore there is the beginning of a shift away from looking at South Africa as the big brother'' of SADC and the rest of Africa. We should also not encourage a notion that says because your economy is greater, because your military might is greater, therefore you are the solver of the continent’s problems’’.

However, one looks at the constitutive Act of the African Union with some cynicism and slightly scared. Women are left behind in its constitution. An additional protocol has to be included to take care of the women, and real African values.

Therefore, it is necessary for South African women in particular, and for the women of the continent to start asking themselves what the advent of the African Union brings to them. Clearly we know that it will bring more communication in Africa, better understanding, and better integration of Africa’s cultures. It will also do the most important thing that we want: It will bring stability and peace to us all, and make us all understand the need to plant, to water, and to strengthen democracy in Africa.

The hon Eglin asked: ``What does it hold for the sovereignty of this country?’’ The Constitutive Act of the African Union is very clear. We shall not be interfering. Is this a new thing? No, I do not think so. Let us look at where there has been at least a trial run of inter-country parliament. For instance, we can look at the Ecowas. There is a parliament of West Africa, and the West African countries as individuals still have sovereignty regarding their own affairs within their own borders. Why would the advent of the African Union therefore frighten us and begin to sow problems even before we go into it?

The hon Makanda referred to human rights development. He said that we should also be aware that doing away with established black universities is not good for us. We can argue against that, because in fact those universities did not set out to produce equal South Africans. [Applause.] They did not set out to make me an equal graduate to one from universities such as Wits, Rhodes or UCT. When one looks at what constitutes pride in being African and the Africanness of these universities, one must also look at what, qualitatively, we have been producing from those universities over a long time.

Therefore, my argument would be that in fact Nepad and the interaction of African countries and diversities will enable black South Africans to gain more advantages at all those wonderful African universities, which they were unable to gain access to. [Applause.]

When the hon Deputy Chairperson of this House referred to the need to give more executive powers and for parliaments to play more of an oversight role in this Pan-Africanist Parliament, I began to note that SADC and our executive have been meeting, big politics have been discussed and great plans have been made, which are meant to push SADC in the right direction. Some of these plans are meant to relieve us of all ethnic, cultural, economic and political conflicts. However, we have failed to strengthen parliaments in these 10 SADC countries.

Therefore, as we proceed with the African Parliament, it becomes necessary to start looking at the functioning of parliaments in Africa. How strong are they? If one gives more executive powers, how effective is this parliamentary oversight going to be? When one goes to the African Parliament, one will need an even stronger oversight role, which will be played by parliaments in Africa.

I want to make an example. The constitutive Act of Ecowas states that no serving minister or member of a cabinet shall be sent to this parliament. Member states of Ecowas send ministers. Parliaments are not doing anything because they feel that they are not strong enough to put up a challenge by putting their feet down and clearly stating that, based on the constitutive Act, they are withdrawing so-and-so. How are going to play this oversight role? As an African woman, I believe that the establishment of the African Union spells the end of the marginalisation of African women on this continent. It challenges us as African women in this Parliament and other parliaments in Africa to make our voices heard. It will make our brains deliver for us what our tears have failed to do over the years. It makes it even more incumbent on women of this continent to demand an end to conflicts, decisions taken by men on Africa, and our children turned into soldiers even before they want to, and enables us to unite as African women and call for an end to this rape that carries on during conflicts and after they have ceased.

As we welcome this union, South African and African women must unite. [Applause.]

The SPEAKER: Order! Hon members, the working group will be submitting a further report, making some specific recommendations to the National Assembly before the end of this term.

Debate concluded. RULING

The SPEAKER: Order! Hon members, before proceeding to the next debate, I wish to rule on a point of order that was raised on 27 February when the hon Mr Goniwe raised a point of order about a comment made by the hon Mr Andrew during a follow-up question to the hon the Deputy President. Mr Goniwe claimed that Mr Andrew had contravened Rule 66 by reflecting on the integrity and credibility of a Chapter 9 institution in that he had said that the arms deal investigation was a cover-up.

At the time, when asked by the Chair, the hon Mr Andrew denied that he had said what he had been accused of having said. I nevertheless undertook to study the Hansard and indicated that if the words had been a reference to the report by the Chapter 9 institutions, that would be out of order.

Having now had the opportunity to study the unrevised Hansard, I want to rule as follows. Mr Andrew’s comment indeed did not refer to the report by the Chapter 9 institutions and is therefore not in contravention of Rule 66, as claimed by Mr Goniwe.

However, Mr Andrew in his comment stated that the removal of Mr Feinstein and the resignation of Dr Woods from Scopa was, and I quote:

… because they would not be party to a cover-up of arms deal corruption.

The direct inference is that other members of Scopa are party to such a cover-up. Mr Andrew’s inference therefore casts aspersions on the integrity of members of this House in their capacity as members of a parliamentary committee, and that is unparliamentary. I therefore ask the hon member to withdraw that remark, please.

Mr K M ANDREW: Madam Speaker, I think the inference that is being made … [Interjections.] … is entirely unsubstantiated by the comments I made. For example, Mr Feinstein was not removed by members of Scopa.

The SPEAKER: Order! Hon Mr Andrew, the words you used, and I think you have the Hansard in front of you …

Mr K M ANDREW: Yes, I do.

The SPEAKER: … are the ones I referred to. You said because they would not be party to a cover-up of arms deal corruption''. The implication of they would not be party’’ is casting aspersions on other members of that committee. And that is what I am asking you to withdraw.

Mr K M ANDREW: Surely, Madam Speaker … [Interjections.] … members of the committee …

The SPEAKER: Order! Hon Mr Andrew, I have made a ruling. If you wish to challenge it, you may do so.

Mr K M ANDREW: Well, I would just like to address you on the ruling, if I may, because I have not been given an opportunity. The only thing I was asked, was whether I had used certain words or not. I said no, I had not used those words, and you have correctly pointed out that I did not use those words.

The SPEAKER: Yes, I said that.

Mr K M ANDREW: I was never asked whether there was an inference that the other members of Scopa …

The SPEAKER: Order! No, you are not being asked now. I am ruling that when I looked at Hansard, I read the full statement. So I am not ruling on Mr Goniwe’s point of order; I am ruling on what Hansard actually says you said. I am then saying that those words need to be withdrawn, because they are out of order. This does not refer to the point of order made by Mr Goniwe. I have made clear that that was not a valid point of order.

Mr K M ANDREW: Madam Speaker, I make it clear that there was no intention to cast an inference in respect of any members of Scopa, that they were party to a cover-up.

The SPEAKER: There was no intention, but the words you used do infer exactly that.

Mr K M ANDREW: Madam Speaker, the words used relate to decisions of two individuals who made personal decisions. In view of their opinion, they took certain causative action. The fact that other members of Scopa did not take similar decisions, including members of my own party, clearly means that they did not take that opinion on themselves, and in that sense there is no inference.

The SPEAKER: Mr Andrew, by saying what you have … I am asking you to withdraw it. The reference is very clear. You asked the Deputy President whether he did not consider that the removal of the hon Mr Andrew Feinstein as leader of the ANC group on Scopa, and the resignation, in desperation, of Scopa’s chairperson, the hon Dr Woods, because ``they would not be party to a cover-up of arms deal corruption’’, would help the Government’s new campaign, etc. That is a reference to the rest of Scopa members.

Mr K M ANDREW: Madam Speaker …

The SPEAKER: Mr Andrew, I am giving you a ruling.

Mr K M ANDREW: Madam Speaker, Mr Feinstein was not removed by members of Scopa as leader of the ANC study group, so that cannot be a reference to other members of Scopa. [Interjections.] In the case of Dr Woods, his resignation, a long time afterwards, was in fact as a result of …

The SPEAKER: Order! Mr Andrew, I am sure Dr Woods has explained the reasons for his resignation. It was what you said in the House that I am going by. I am not reopening whether there were resignations or removals. By saying ``they would not be party to a cover-up’’, you are implying that other members of Scopa are party to a cover-up. [Interjections.] That is the basis on which you are being asked to withdraw that statement.

Mr K M ANDREW: Madam Speaker, are you suggesting that … [Interjections.]

The SPEAKER: Mr Andrew, I am not suggesting anything.

Mr K M ANDREW: … my own party members are party to a cover-up? [Interjections.]

The SPEAKER: Order! Mr Andrew, will you listen to me? [Interjections.] Order! I am not suggesting anything. I have given you a ruling; it is not a suggestion. Please, Mr Gibson, will you take your seat till I have finished with Mr Andrew. I will hear you thereafter.

Mr D H M GIBSON: Madam Speaker, on a point of order: The rules of natural justice would give Mr Andrew the right to address you. You have not given him a fair opportunity with respect to that before you gave your ruling.

The SPEAKER: Order! Mr Gibson, take your seat. I have given him ample opportunity, more than I have normally allowed on a ruling. I have heard him out. He says he did not mean what I have drawn it to infer. I heard what he said. I therefore reread the entire paragraph of what he had said. I do not believe that was not natural justice. I am therefore asking the hon Andrew to withdraw his words.

Mr K M ANDREW: I withdraw … [Interjections.]

The SPEAKER: Order!

Mr K M ANDREW: I withdraw any inference in the way you have interpreted it, because that was not my intention.

The SPEAKER: Order! The words, Mr Andrew! You know you are not being asked to withdraw an inference.

Mr K M ANDREW: Which particular word do you want me to withdraw?

The SPEAKER: That entire section. The words I quoted … [Interjections.] Mr Eglin, I will address you later on on that. The words I quoted are ``because they would not be party to a cover-up of arms deal corruption’’. Mr K M ANDREW: Madam Speaker, I withdraw that.

The SPEAKER: Thank you. [Interjections.]

Mr D H M GIBSON: Madam Speaker, on a point of order: Would you rule about the time in which points of order are to be taken? The point of order which was taken by Mr Goniwe was some half an hour after the statement by Mr Andrew. My understanding is that at least the practice has always been that one has to raise a point of order immediately or at the first available opportunity, not half an hour later. [Interjections.] In the past you have in fact declined points of order from this side of the House on that very basis.

The SPEAKER: Order! I am not ruling on Mr Goniwe’s point of order. I have stated that it was not a valid point of order.

Mr D H M GIBSON: I am referring to the timing of it, Madam Speaker.

The SPEAKER: The timing of it we can discuss in the Rules Committee. But it was when I read what was said … I have made very clear that I was not ruling on Mr Goniwe’s point of order. As to whether it has to be taken immediately thereafter, I am prepared to discuss. I am prepared to discuss it at the Rules Committee. I have no problem with that.

Mr D H M GIBSON: Thank you, Madam Speaker. What is the point of order then?

The SPEAKER: Which point of order? [Interjections.] It’s not a point of order. I am ruling that the words that Mr Andrew used were unparliamentary.

Mr D H M GIBSON: I see. So that was not a point of order?

The SPEAKER: That was not a point of order. I noted it myself when I read the text. I made that very clear, and I then asked him to withdraw that.

Mr D H M GIBSON: Thank you, Madam Speaker.

The SPEAKER: If you check the ruling as I read it, and which will be in Hansard, you will see that was made very clear at the time I gave the ruling.

ENCOURAGING SOUTH-SOUTH CO-OPERATION TO REINFORCE NATIONAL AND REGIONAL EFFORTS IN CAPACITY-BUILDING IN RESPECT OF INSTITUTIONAL INFRASTRUCTURE AND HUMAN RESOURCE DEVELOPMENT

                      (Subject for Discussion)

Prof B TUROK: Madam Speaker, South-South co-operation has long been a desired objective, and it is not simply a matter of co-operation between states, but also a matter of co-operation between peoples across the world. However, we are now in a new context of globalisation, a world which is increasingly polarised between the rich and the poor. And so we have to re- examine the whole question of South-South co-operation in the New World Order. What is clear is that there can be no retreat into isolationism on the grounds of South-South co-operation, and we need to manage the new situation. In a document issued by the Government on Nepad, the following was stated:

Globalisation has increased the ability of the strong to advance their interests to the detriment of the weak … It has limited the space for developing countries to control their own development.

Now while that sentiment could describe the state of the world for a long time, the present period is really quite different. There are common interests in the South. These interests have been there for quite a long time, and the phrase ``Third World’’ was actually coined to represent those common interests that exist among developing countries.

The term ``Third World’’ was used to characterise the exclusion of the Third World by industrialised countries, and even to describe the domination of the Third World by industrialised countries. That is why the notion of Third-Worldism was launched and why there is so much literature about the Third World. There have been many commissions set up by Third World countries to examine the question of their condition, notably the South Centre in Geneva, founded by President Nyerere, precisely to examine the condition of the Third World, of the developing countries, and to examine the question of South-South co-operation. That centre has been functioning for quite a few years and it has been the centre of discussion on these issues on a world scale.

Our own Department of Trade and Industry has launched the idea of a butterfly scenario. The idea is that Africa should be located in the context of relations between Latin America and Asia.

The questions we have to ask are: What are the objectives of this approach? What are the means to fulfil South-South co-operation? And, what are the obstacles? The latter - the obstacles - is a very important issue, because people in the South know very well that there are very serious obstacles to South-South co-operation, and we need to understand them properly if we are to find solutions. Above all, this issue of South-South co-operation should not be treated in a technocratic, administrative way, but looked at holistically. We must look at this issue economically and socially as a political problem for the world as a whole.

What are the obstacles to South-South co-operation? The first obstacle is distance. We know that our attempts to co-operate with Latin American and Asia often fall down on the question of distance. We are different continents, and the relationship is difficult to cement given that distance.

The second obstacle is language. Not long ago I was in Brazil, discussing development issues with people there. I found that the language of Latin America is not my language. English is not the lingua franca of Latin America; it is Portuguese and Spanish. Similarly, in Asia the language issue is an obstacle to South-South co-operation.

Another obstacle is the economic character of Third World countries, the fact that nearly all Third World countries are primary commodity producers and exporters. This is an obstacle to South-South co-operation.

There was a time when the question of skills and human capacity was a problem. This is not so much the case now. India, for example, has a high degree of capacity in computer science, in technological expertise. The same is the case in countries like Chile, Brazil and so on.

The skills deficiency is no longer a serious obstacle to South-South co- operation. But there is a problem in that much of the African continent’s skill capacity has now moved to the United States. I understand that there are more Nigerian lawyers in the United States than there are in Nigeria itself, and similarly with medical doctors. There has been a transfer of skill from the Third World to the First World, and that is an obstacle to South-South co-operation.

It was originally thought that South-South co-operation was a question of sharing capacity, certainly especially in Africa. I want to spend more time on the question of co-operation within Africa, building on the previous debate that we had this afternoon. The notion of shared capacity was built into the notion of African economic unity.

Prof Adebayo Adedeji, a Nigerian who became head of the UN Economic Commission for Africa and who was the author of the Lagos Plan of Action in 1980, was also the founder of the notion of African economic unity. He was driven, to some extent, by the notion that there was too much foreign interference in Africa; that Africa must develop its own momentum; that Africa must develop its own skills base; and that South-South co-operation was included then in the notion of Africa’s economic co-operation. The reason for that was partly because as a Nigerian, a man of great pride, he felt that Africa must develop its expertise and not be dependent on expertise from outside; that African economic unity meant pride in Africa’s own capacities and its own ability to design its own plans to produce its own way forward and to operate right across the continent.

Prof Adedeji was an African nationalist and unashamedly so. He produced a document called The African Alternative Framework to Structural Adjustment Programmes, AFF-SAP, which was based on the notion of collective economic self-reliance across the continent. It was also based on the notion of regional integration.

He was responsible for the setting up of the Economic Community of West African States - Ecowas. He is also the one who encouraged the East African Community to come into being, as a community which was based not only on simple things like removing tariff barriers, but on the notion that Africa must develop its production base, must create suitable infrastructure and must examine the whole framework for co-operation within the continent. He reckoned that this would lead to economies of scale, that it would generate new forward and backward linkages and that it would alleviate fiscal constraints. The basis for Africa’s economic co-operation was rooted in the notion that Africa is a wealthy continent.

The notion of Africa as a hopeless continent - The Economist told us a while ago that Africa is beyond redemption, that it is a basket case - is absolutely negated by the statistics of Africa’s wealth. Africa has 97% of the world’s chrome, 85% of the world’s platinum, 64% of the world’s manganese, 25% of the world’s uranium, 70% of the world’s cocoa, and so on. It is a rich continent, which needs to co-operate, which needs its own form of South-South co-operation to make it work. [Interjections.]

Adedeji proposed the following formula for co-operation across Africa: democratisation; an attack on and an exposure of military rule; an attack on and an exposure of dictators; better attitudes to work; work ethics; savings; investments; investment habits; skills development, a crucial element; the improvement of social systems right across the continent.

These are the things that he raised. It has to be said, however, that Adedeji was, in many ways, a prophet. He was in many ways ahead of his time, and, by and large, African leaders and the African continent did not take his proposals seriously. But he persisted with them, and it was very interesting for me to be invited to a conference in Windhoek in 1994, which Adedeji called, in which he raised the whole question of the role of South Africa in respect of economic co-operation in Africa.

He entitled the conference ``South Africa and Africa: Within or Apart?’’ He raised the question, quite provocatively, as to whether South Africa was going to be part of Africa or part of the developed world, the Western world. Our Minister of Education, Prof Kader Asmal, was there as a keynote speaker. I responded to Adedeji by saying that, in 1994, South Africa had, as its priority, the establishment of democracy within South Africa. That was our priority, and the question of our position in Africa, within or apart, was, at that moment, a secondary issue.

But it no longer is a secondary issue now, and thankfully our President has raised the question of South Africa and Africa, within the whole question of economic, social and political co-operation on the continent, as part of our contribution to South-South co-operation.

Prof Adedeji pointed out that when the South African apartheid government was in power, it tried to set up a Constellation of States in order to defend its white redoubt, this ``granite’’ apartheid South Africa. This attempt to set up a constellation of states was rejected by our neighbours and, instead, African governments in the region and beyond established SADC. They established the PTA, they established Comesa, and the principle upon which they were established was to find mutually beneficial political and socioeconomic relations which would enable the continent to go forward.

Adedeji proposed, as part of that whole scenario, that there should be greater access to the South African market and to other markets, that there should be a progressive liberalisation of the regional labour market, so that people could move from one country to another in order to obtain work to pass skills on to each other, and so that there would be a greater integration right across the continent. There should be regional transport policies, infrastructure should be developed, and I think that, at this moment, it will be hard to deny that this process of integration, through economic processes and through social processes, is moving ahead.

Nepad is now the new Lagos Plan of Action. Nepad is the attempt to bring unity and co-operation across Africa. It is based on the notion of a new patriotism for the whole continent, or a new renaissance. Therefore, for someone like me, who has been in discussion on these matters over many, many years, I am heartened and delighted to see that the vision of Nkrumah, the vision of Prof Adedeji, the vision of the Lagos Plan of Action and the Economic Commission for Africa of the United Nations, is now high on the agenda. The notion of South-South co-operation is finding a realisation in the notion of a new African unity and integration. [Applause.]

Ms R TALJAARD: Madam Speaker, hon members, it was clear by the end of 1998, in the wake of the crises in East Asia and the Russian federation, that the economic liberalisation and globalisation of the 1990s had outpaced the capacity of the institutional frameworks, within and among nations, to handle them effectively. The cost of crises, especially to developing and transitional economic countries, was steep. Investment in emerging market economies dipped, and has never recovered. A world of plenty confronting a world of poverty is neither stable nor just.

The UN Conference on Financing for Development, convening in Monterrey in Mexico from 18 to 22 March is, in a sense, a culmination of post-Asian- crisis attempts to address key financial issues related to global financial architecture and global development.

It is, furthermore, a key opportunity to take forward the dialogue between the developed and developing world which started in debates around the restructuring of the multilateral institutions of global financial governance after the Asian crisis and subsequent cracks in the global trade system evidenced by the crisis in Seattle in 2000. Monterrey builds on the UN Millennium Summit’s goal of reaching specific poverty reduction targets by the year 2015. It is clear that sound globalisation can only move forward on the basis of dialogue and co-operation between the developed and developing world.

Development, which includes raising national income, lifting illiteracy rates, basic sanitation and a decent standard living, has taken giant steps forward in the past half-century but much more needs to be done. To have a real chance of meeting development goals, a stepped-up effort by both developing and developed countries as well as multilateral institutions is required. This is what the UN Millennium Summit acknowledged.

At the preparatory meeting of the Monterrey conference in January, the UN Secretary-General, Kofi Annan, endorsed the need for developing countries to have a bigger say in the management of the global economy. This is the mammoth task confronting the Monterrey conference where, for the first time, the World Bank, IMF and World Trade Organisation, as well as business and civil society groupings, heads of state and Ministers of Trade, Finance and Foreign Affairs will be called upon to agree on the wide-ranging draft text of the Monterrey consensus on financing for development.

The topic for discussion before the House today raises but one element of the Monterrey draft consensus. Due to the fundamental issues at stake in Mexico to ensure the alignment of the key role-players in global finance, I will not restrict myself only to South-South co-operation. The opportunities for South-South co-operation in this context will be clear from Monterrey’s clear challenges.

The International Conference on Financing for Development is mandated by the UN General Assembly to promote international co-operation in six areas that are key to the future prospects of the world’s developing and transitional economies: Firstly, stepping up the mobilisation of economic resources within countries; secondly, increasing the flow and broadening the reach of private international investment; thirdly, opening access to markets and ensuring fair and equitable trade regimes; fourthly, strengthening and increasing official development assistance; fifthly, solving intractable developing countries’ debt difficulties; and lastly, improving the coherence of global and regional financial structures and promoting fair representation of developing countries in international decision-making.

It is clear that the Monterrey draft consensus poses challenges at a number of levels. At the international level, this is in two respects. It poses a challenge to the institutions of global financial governance and trade, the IMF, World Bank and the World Trade Organisation to confront issues around the inclusion of the developing countries’ agenda in their agendas. Secondly, within this context, the opportunity for South-South co-operation is abundantly clear, as was evidenced in Dehar, and Monterrey will be the next challenge. Thirdly, the challenge is the regional level where regional trading blocs and regional development banks will play a key co-ordinating role and contribute to human capital formation and skills transfer. Fourthly, nation states that can see the fundamental role of domestic policies and domestic resource mobilisation and development will be crucial. Lastly, the global business community and multinational co- operations and their interactions with civil society and nation states present another challenge.

The Monterrey draft consensus underscores that development is a global problem requiring a global solution and assigns critical roles to key stakeholders under the co-ordinating auspices of the United Nations. It is, however, not only global institutions that have challenges to confront. In relation to building developing countries and developed countries’ consensus on financing for development, the point of departure remains the role and responsibility of states and the mobilisation of domestic resources. It should be noted that I indicated this as the point of departure and not the entire and sole purpose.

As Ambassador John Negroponte of the USA stated at the Monterrey preparatory meeting in January, development requires liberty, fairness, openness, compassion and it requires the recognition that the domestic private sector, not national foreign governments, is the most efficient, powerful and reliable source of future growth any country can tackle.

The US therefore believes that a major theme of the Financing for Development Conference should be that domestic resources are the basic foundation for a country’s development. Hon members should please note: ``not the only, but the basic’’.

Despite the crucial contributing role of trade and foreign direct investment and the respective roles of the World Trade Organisation, the IMF and the World Bank, they remain contributing roles. While the point of departure remains the mobilisation and better - and I emphasis ``better’’ - and more efficient use of domestic financial resources for development, these resources are finite.

In this regard, the dialogue between the United States, the IMF and the World Bank in relation to poverty-reduction strategy papers will be the cornerstone of the debates around the effective and optimal mobilisation of domestic resource mobilisation.

In a submission on behalf of the regional commissions of the United Nations, Dr José Antonio Ocampo highlighted that experiences of regional and subregional financial institutions indicated that they could be effective in providing liquidity, sustaining trade links, facilitating access to international financial resources through risk pooling, macro economic policy co-ordination, peer review and the adoption of regulatory systems to regional conditions.

This combination of the regional and inter-regional approach highlights how regional efforts have an important role to play in building capacity and developing human resources and the institutions themselves, yet again, a clear opportunity for South-South co-operation. Examples in this regard include co-operation across developing country regional trade arrangements in the recent Doha talks, as well as prospects for co-operation between regional development banks in terms of technical expertise.

The draft Monterrey Consensus seeks a co-ordinated response to financing for development, including the mobilisation of both domestic and international financial resources, harassing international trade as an engine for development, ensuring debt relief and increasing international financial and technical co-operation.

But how does one unlock financial resources for development? One does this, firstly, by ensuring that the IMF, the World Bank and the WTO give developing countries a voice by their claiming that voice; secondly, by mobilising domestic resources, including extending the use of public- private partnerships; and thirdly, by creating confidence and attracting foreign direct investment, for, as I pointed out, the basic point of departure is the domestic resources, but these are finite. And that brings into play international mobilisation. Fourthly, one unlocks financial resources for development by increasing overseas development assistance to 0,7% of GDP and reversing the current concerning decline, as the UN Millennium Declaration indicates; fifth, by ensuring fair global trade, sixthly, by combating corruption domestically - this is very important, owing to the fact that national resources are finite - including the repatriation of illegally transferred funds and the strengthening of global co-ordination in this regard; and lastly, by external debt forgiveness, as is currently under way in these institutions I have alluded to.

What is required for Monterrey’s success? Apart from the formidable challenge of co-ordinating all the actors, the fundamental determining factor is the cementing of a co-operative development paradigm between developed and developing nations, between developing countries and multilateral institutions, and among all the role-players themselves.

The Monterrey conference and the role of the UN special envoys, Trevor Manuel and Michel Camdessus, must be to secure the future from financial crisis and to ensure a co-ordinated global push - and I emphasis ``co- ordinated global push’’ - to finance that future. In the words of the US president: It is time to seize the opportunity to include all the world’s poor in an expanding circle of development’’.

The Monterrey conference and the World Conference on Sustainable Development in Johannesburg are integral parts in ensuring that the UN Millennium Conference’s millennium development goals come to fruition, for they have very ambitious poverty reduction goals. The voices of the poor must be heard in Mexico in March. These voices emanate from the South primarily, and need to be raised in unison. [Applause.]

Mr M F CASSIM: Madam Speaker, the international conference on financing for development which takes place in Monterrey, Mexico, in a matter of a few days, will be laying out 52 leading actions that world leaders will have to give consideration to. Action number 10 out of the 52 encourages leaders of all nations to seek South-South co-operation.

But as the hon Prof Ben Turok has rightly pointed out, the question of Third World development has attracted an enormous amount of literature. Therefore, we could ask the legitimate question: What is new in putting before this conference the requirement that there should be South-South co- operation?

Now, the two speakers before me dwelled on the broader global issues. The hon Turok covered the continents of Asia, Africa and also of South America where all the third world countries happen to be. I would like to look at what is an important element of the Monterrey declaration and that is to look at the sub-regional aspect, because the broader international and regional aspect will have been looked at and, in this context, then look at what is happening within the SADC region.

The important thing about the Monterrey declaration, with its 52 leading actions, is to provide world leaders, parliaments, politicians and economists with a very useful checklist. It is against this checklist that we need to see how we are placed. South Africa as a country would be able to tick off most of the 52 requirements and say that we comply and therefore we should be able to attract finance for development from the various parties that will be coming forward to support the conference and the outcome of the conference.

Within the SADC region, however, many problems manifest themselves. If we focus for a moment on what is happening in Zimbabwe, we find that politics there have created a great degree of diviseness, so much so that a country that was once united and prosperous now finds itself in a situation where prosperity is lacking and where there was once unanimity, there is a great deal of division and actually even animosity. A country like Zimbabwe, which could have played and important role in South-South co-operation and attracted finance development, that country which could have been going forward, by all accounts, will be going backwards.

Other countries in our area, such as Mozambique, Malawi and Tanzania, have very serious problems when they go through that checklist of 52 items and they will find that they do not have capacity, the skills, the transport, the infrastructure and all the sorts of things that the two speakers prior to me alluded to.

A very important area is the digital divide. In respect of all the things that need to be done, the Monterrey conference is looking at multi-lateral trading. Multilateral trading requires all of us to come up to speed and join the race, but the race is one, as the hon Taljaard pointed out, wherein the rich nations have run so far ahead of all the other nations that to play catch-up is, in itself, going to be an enormously difficult thing to do. In that situation, if we factorise the question of a lack of IT and communication capacity, it compounds the problem enormously.

So in relation to the digital divide, which is actually again a division where the Northern Hemisphere countries, in respect of IT, have been able to maximise the use of IT, the Southern Hemisphere region has found itself lagging far behind and needs to catch up on that. If globalisation then has to be given proper consideration in respect of the multitrading system that has been put into place, we recognise that it is a great boon to some countries because it is all advantage to them, but to other countries in the south and the sub-region of Africa the question of globalisation indeed creates enormous pressures.

If south-south co-operation is to extend to cover the 52 leading actions that are set out in the document, in our sub-region, the following challenges of globalisation will have to be given very serious consideration by all of us, and these would be: improving trade infrastructure, diversifying export capacity, increasing the technological content of exports, enhancing productivity and competitiveness, and supporting trade-related training and services.

All challenges disturb comfort zones. The labour movement in our country will also see many threats in these challenges and would like Government to constrain itself in committing itself further. Many SADC countries have neither the infrastructure nor the institutions to step into the global economic arena. National parliaments themselves are becoming in the main bystanders. Increasingly, it is the executive that has to act while the role of parliament diminishes accordingly and correspondingly.

To add salt to the wound, the debate is increasingly becoming one which is more for technocrats, not the ordinary representatives of the people. I think we have known for some times that our debates in Parliament are becoming fairly superfluous. We now also see, even though we might have doubted this, that the entire world has indeed become a tiny global village. Global issues are therefore pushing national and regional issues to the margins, and the polarisation between the rich and the poor is being exacerbated. Governments are being compelled to focus substantially on international and global issues, and are bound by international decisions.

The consensus being sought at Monterrey is essentially to hurry all the countries along the path of globalisation and to provide as much support as possible to everyone who is keen and willing to join the race. Increased resources will therefore, in all likelihood, be made available to remove supply-side constraints and to allow world trade to become more unfettered. Tariffs, protectionalism, lack of competitiveness, etc will not be allowed to stand in the way of world trade.

The stage is set for multilateral financing, multilateral development institutions beginning to find places within our countries, and the creation of awesome markets for all those who buy into the programme. If a country does not buy into it, or hesitates, it will simply be left behind. The coin that is being spun has the same face on both sides for the expanding multilateral trading systems and the countries that are experts in it. Therefore, countries will either have to join the system wholeheartedly or will have to do so screaming and kicking.

The clear injunction for all of us as MPs is that we too will have to become economists and technocrats. Our financial institutions will be extremely challenged to become involved nationally, subregionally, regionally and internationally. Our universities will also have to produce students who understand international trade, currency exchange and currency volatility. Developing countries will be nursed, at least at face value, to have improved market access for a while.

So, the whole question of South-South co-operation is indeed one which is going to require all of us, parliamentarians, economists and businesspeople, to rise to the challenge, and the challenge is going to be an extreme one. [Applause.]

Mrs Z A KOTA: Madam Speaker, millions of people throughout the South-South region have a right to peace, stability, democracy, social security, freedom from hunger, ignorance, skills development and good governance. The challenge is to transform and democratise our institutions as well as to co- ordinate national and regional capacity-building mechanisms.

The biggest enemy that confronts this region is poverty. Whilst the developed countries have crucial role to play in assisting South-South to achieve its development priorities and goals, the primary objective for the development of this continent lies within South-South countries themselves. In this regard, I welcome the growth trend towards greater national, regional and subregional co-operation and integration.

The SADC free trade treaty attests to the importance the SADC states attach to the issue of economic viability. The ANC election manifesto of 1999 states, and I quote:

The ANC will work together with the nations of Africa to realise democracy and rapid social and economic development. We shall work with the forces across the globe who share this vision, who seek a better world of solidarity and caring.

Comrade President Thabo Mbeki, in his book Africa: The Time Has Come states, and I quote:

We believe that our region needs a radical expansion of the frontiers of democratic participation if it is to tap the initiative and intellect of its citizens, limit any tendency towards arbitrary rule and accelerate the integration of the regional economy into the economy of the world.

Our President went further to say:

Within the context of equality and mutual respect among the countries of the Southern African region, South Africa poses some advantages which can make it act as a bridgehead of development in the region. Our geographical location on the southern tip of the continent, with sea ports on both the Indian and Atlantic oceans, affords our country the possibility to function as the bridge in South-South trade and general socioeconomic interaction.

It also provides the possibility of bringing together, in a mutually beneficial way, aspirations of the developing world, especially Southern Africa, and the technological and financial capabilities obtainable in the developed economies of the world.

It is for that reason that I want to look at the issues of peace and stability in this region, as this will contribute hugely to the promotion of security co-operation, and will lead to social stability in the region and boost investor confidence in tourism and also in our economy.

In his address at the 1998 SA Army Conference the then Deputy Minister of Defence, Comrade Ronnie Kasrils, stated amongst other things and, I quote:

Africa has helped to free South Africa. The SANDF, strengthened by meaningful transformation, will play its role in keeping our region and Africa stable and secure for progress, freedom, democracy and peace.

The importance of collaborative security for Southern Africa is explained in the White Paper on defence in democracy. The White Paper further states that much of the subcontinent is stricken by chronic underdevelopment, poverty, illiteracy, unemployment, acute debt crises and environmental degradation.

A common approach to security in Southern Africa is necessary for a number of reasons. Firstly, many of the domestic threats to individual states are shared problems and impact negatively on the stability of neighbouring states. Secondly, it is possible that interstate disputes could emerge in relation to refugees, trade, foreign investment, etc. It is therefore clear that challenges of collaborative security in Southern Africa are complex and there are no easy answers or quick fixes.

The adoption of the SADC organ on politics, defence and security in 1996 marked an important step in the subregional search for fostering closer political integration. The organ also envisages the development of regional mechanisms for peacekeeping and peace enforcement activities, and training of national forces for peacekeeping roles.

The implementation of these aspects is being pursued through a number of regional training initiatives that have culminated in extensive peacekeeping field exercises, such as Operation Blue Crane held in South Africa. The protocol on politics, security and defence represents efforts to integrate national political institutions and to harmonise their values and practices at a political level. The SANDF is rendering its full co- operation and assistance within SADC and the Interstate Defence and Security Committee, the ISDC, in various fields.

It also renders humanitarian assistance. The examples that I can cite are those of Tanzania, with the recovery of casualties from a sunken ferry in Lake Victoria, snowfalls in Lesotho and floods caused by El Niño in Mozambique.

Our defence force is also taking part in peace-building efforts in the region. The members of the SANDF are now in Burundi and in other parts of the continent. The absence of human security in Southern Africa can be identified as the biggest internal challenge confronting stability and viability of national states in the subregion.

The issue of xenophobia needs to be high on the agenda of member states within the region. It has to be addressed as a matter of urgency. We need to interact at a subregional level on cultural programmes that are aimed at alleviating this problem. The issue of a common identity as Africans can no longer be postponed.

I know I do not have a lot of time, but I think before I conclude it is important that I address the issue of the participation of women within the subregional continent. The participation of women in SADC programmes can no longer be postponed and Parliament needs to support these initiatives. As we revisit the Montreal checklist of the 52 items, we need to ensure that the role of women is addressed and that women are part of the decision- making in all these processes.

Women must participate in programmes that are aimed at empowering them, in programmes of good governance and in programmes that ensure the plight of women is addressed in the subregion. [Applause.]

Dr P J RABIE: Chairperson and hon members, South-South co-operation and regional efforts in capacity-building are also closely interlinked with economic globalisation.

One of the key concepts discussed at the recent economic forum in New York was the present effect of globalisation on the world economy. Globalisation means the measure of the economic integration, across the border flows of goods and capital over political boundaries with the minimum of constraints.

The attack on the World Trade Centre on 11 September and the recent monetary and political crisis in Argentina in December 2001, had an effect on the global economy, according to UNCTAD, an agency of the UN, foreign direct investment declined in the order of 50% in the financial year 2000-

1. A substantial amount of this was withdrawn from Southern regions, which could also be labelled developing regions or Third World countries, as the hon Ben Turok stated here this afternoon.

Events such as the Asian crisis of 1997, the Russian default of debt in 1998 and money fleeing from Turkey and Argentina, have resulted in potential investors regarding emerging markets with a fair degree of caution.

South Africa can be categorised as the emerging market. Global and regional economic co-operation is a very selective phenomenon. Some of the emerging countries and regions have benefited from globalisation. Regrettably, many other countries, especially in the South-South region, have not benefited from globalisation.

A recent study by the World Bank showed that 24 countries, home to 3 billion people, such as the Philippines, India and Brazil have substantially increased their trade to GDP over the last 20 years and their poverty rates have declined. It is estimated that some of these countries experienced a GDP growth rate of almost 5% in the nineties, compared to a 2% growth rate in the richer and more developed countries.

It is estimated that another 2 billion people live in countries that have become less globalised and poorer. Many countries that are located in sub- Saharan Africa and in Latin America find that their trade has diminished in relation to national income, economic growth has been stagnant and the people have become poorer.

Allow me to say that regional co-operation and globalisation are not and never were global. The shocks of 2001 have had an effect on the prices of single product export economies. The prices of cocoa and copper have fallen, if we take the last five to six years as the norm.

It is of vital importance that developed countries pay more than lip service and allow the liberalisation of farm trade, especially for the countries that find themselves in the sub-South-South region. It is estimated that subsidies for farmers in rich countries or developed countries are worth US$1 billion dollars a day, more than six times as much as the developed countries’ entire foreign aid budget.

It is also important to note that the World Bank and the recent Doha round of talks allowed, or they stipulated, that greater exceptions be given to rich countries’ markets and textiles, and other labour intensive manufactured goods. It is calculated that more than 70% of the exports of poor countries are farm produce and textiles. A further prerequisite for global economic integration is to encourage poor countries to lower barriers against each other’s goods. The average tariff for manufactured goods is four times higher for trade between poor countries than for exports to rich countries.

The World Bank calculates that if the Doha round of talks are implemented, trade in the poorer countries - many of them, again, as I have said, in the South-South area - can increase and can benefit the people. It is very important that we get growth in these particular areas, because it is estimated that by the year 2015, another 1 billion people will find themselves in the poorer, lesser developed or Third World countries. It is very important that we stimulate the economies within these particular areas.

Global economic regional integration will also result in the rich or the developed world’s population falling substantially. The result of this will be that the void left in these industrial markets will be filled by the migration of people coming from the lesser developed countries.

It is very important that the developed countries assist all the particular role-players so that we integrate the present economic order. The plight of the poor in the less developed countries is of great concern to everyone. More and more people today vote with their feet. Currently millions of skilled people in Latin America are migrating to North America and Europe. Polls in many of the South-South countries show people to be deeply dissatisfied with rising unemployment, failure in the improvement of living standards and violent crime.

One of the problems facing the Third World countries, or the developing countries, is that there is a continuous brain drain, and, whether we like it or not, skilled people are a fundamental prerequisite for sustained future economic growth. The developing world faces a number of challenges, first and foremost is that of the political renewal. Corruption must be eliminated in these particular countries if they want to experience future growth.

The second challenge is economic. More emphasis should be placed on skills training. Capital is becoming scarcer and scarcer. There are no miracle cures. All the respective people involved in this particular regional South- South co-operation will have to get together and plan for the future.

Dr G W KOORNHOF: Chairperson, hon members, it is a privilege to participate in this important debate, especially with regard to the aim of reinforcing national and regional efforts to create capacity-building.

I agree with Prof Turok on having our own form of South-South co-operation in Africa, with special reference to our own region.

The drivers of capacity-building rest on three important pillars, in my opinion: firstly, on the ability to transform debt capital into instruments that can create wealth; secondly, on the ability to provide ordinary workers with knowledge and skills which the market requires; thirdly, on the willingness of a government to fulfil one of its core responsibilities, namely to invest in infrastructure development and maintenance.

Firstly, one of the tragedies of developing countries is that we have a constant shortage of finances for development, coupled with a general inability of poor people to break out of the vicious circle of poverty. Yet the majority of poor people possess assets, such as home-made shelters in squatter camps or tracts of land in rural areas, which they simply cannot transform into capital that can be traded freely because they have neither access to capital nor a property rights system that allows them to create wealth for themselves.

Millions of poor people are simply excluded from a system that will allow them to unlock the dead capital that they have in the form of assets in which they have invested their hard-earned savings.

Developing nations and regions will simply have to find a way to utilise existing capital in our society or region to promote sustainable development. The value of such unutilised or wasted capital probably equals a number of times the value of foreign direct investment in any developing country or region.

The second pillar of capacity building is the availability and quality of primary, secondary and tertiary education, technical education - continuous education and the education of the illiterate in our society.

The development of skills has become one of the most important ingredients in human resource development. The days of a lifelong secure job at a particular firm are fast disappearing. In future the value of a worker will depend on how much specialised knowledge he or she can gather, through skills training in accordance with what the individual institution or market requires.

The value of such acquired skills will manifest itself in part-time jobs, outsourcing and subcontracting. Our challenge will be how to maximise education and skills training to build human resources and to retain such brainpower. This will allow workers to successfully engage in IT, financial market and entrepreneurship in the country and the region.

In conclusion, the third pillar of capacity-building is the willingness of a Government to intervene in the economy in a responsible and financially calculated manner, through the development and maintenance of infrastructure. Investments in roads, schools, clinics, harbours, power stations, etc, should be high on the agenda of all spheres of Government and must provide a stimulus for job creation. A national development plan designed to improve infrastructure and Government efficiency should be considered.

I trust that we in Southern Africa will find the political will and the capacity to develop these three pillars of capacity-building. Ms E GANDHI: Chairperson, hon Ministers, comrades and colleagues, South Africa, with its two worlds, one rich and well resourced and the other poor and deprived, is a microcosm of the North or the First World and South or the Third World. What the South faces, therefore, is a larger version of the problems faced by our rural areas and black townships. The South signifies countries that are poor, lack basic infrastructure and have depleted resources.

A significant feature of the South is its history of plunder and impoverishment, leading to illiteracy and poor health. Deaths owing to illnesses such as cholera, typhoid, malaria, plague and HIV/Aids continue to be rife in most of the South. Yet the countries in the South have natural resources such as mineral wealth, forests, wildlife, flora and fauna, water sources, etc. But these have been plundered and continue to be exploited. Wars and internal strife add to the depletion of these resources.

Robert Wade of the London School of Economics says, and I quote:

Globally, inequality is worsening rapidly. Technological change and financial liberalisation result in a disproportionately fast increase in the number of households at the extreme rich end, without shrinking the distribution at the poor end.

From 1988 to 1993 the state of the world income going to the poorest of the world’s population fell by over a quarter, whereas the share of the richest 10% rose by 8%. The richest 10% pulled away from the median, while the poorest 10% fell away from the median, falling absolutely and by a large amount.

Kevin Watkins in the International Herald Tribune says, and I quote:

Twenty years ago the ratio of average income in the world’s 49 least developed countries to income in the rich countries was 1:87. Now it is 1:98. Life expectancy in the least developed countries is 25 years less than in the industrialised ones.

In this situation, therefore, the importance of human development, and for this purpose the development of institutions, cannot be overemphasised. It is also important that the content of education and training is geared towards the needs of the South. For this purpose and for ensuring that there is a stoppage in the depletion of the wealth and resources of the South, South-South solidarity and co-operation are of paramount importance.

The North has been characterised by overconsumption, wastage, and technological advancement without concern for environmental degradation or the effect on human and natural life. Training and education in the North is therefore geared towards the perpetuation of this system. The need for the South to declare its own identity, culture, training and education, geared towards its own needs, and on the basis of its own values, is important.

The South has to look at conservation and renew its own value system that was trashed by the colonialists, but its importance and intrinsic worth are seen today. An example is the important concept of ubuntu. There are similar concepts and traditions of great value and importance in the South. We have to reclaim these, and we have to develop a patriotism and nationalism which will keep our people within our countries.

Our long-term development and sustainability will depend very much on the South-South solidarity. Without such solidarity we will continue to suffer the plundering of our resources and the depletion of our environment.

Finally, in solidarity with my two sisters here, I want to endorse what Vandana Shiva says in her book on biodiversity, and I quote:

Third World women have a special role to play at this historical moment, since they pay the highest price, and are the worst victims. Women of the South pay the highest price for economic globalisation in terms of food insecurity. They lose the most knowledge, skills and livelihoods when new technologies are introduced or when their knowledge is appropriated through ``biopiracy’’ and intellectual property rights. They are the worst victims of civil wars, ethnic and religious violence …

While the women of the South bear the worst burden in terms of the costs of globalisation, they also have the experience to build alternatives. We need to empower these women.

[Applause.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! Hon members, many of you are in direct competition with the hon member at the podium. Will you kindly lower your voices?

Adv Z L MADASA: Chairperson, globalisation has exacerbated the North-South economic disparities to the detriment of the South. Africa as a whole contributes about 1% of the world’s GDP and foreign direct investment. Yet, the world’s largest accumulation of raw material is found on this continent.

Globalisation offers an opportunity to sink or to swim, depending on whether we engage with the process or remain on the periphery. South-South economic co-operation is therefore an effective mechanism to engage the process of globalisation so that it may yield economic development to the people of the South. We must do all we can to encourage South-South regional economic integration to extend production lines at national and regional levels. Eventually, it is effective South-South economic co- operation which will ensure a sustainable partnership of the developing economies.

As long as multilateral economic institutions and other governmental organs remain largely controlled by the rich North, little development will ensue in emerging economies. The democratisation of these multilateral institutions is key to ensuring equitable economic development between North and South. Lack of capacity to effectively negotiate transformation of these institutions remains a big challenge to the developing economies. South-South regional co-operation will strengthen and develop capacity, including human resources, in order to engage the North more effectively.

Unless our institutions are also strong and capable, efforts to engage globalisation will be futile. But, we have no alternative but to address our own regional weaknesses immediately. These include weak states in the form of dictatorships, the nonparticipatory nature of some governments, war and conflicts, and so on. Unless these are addressed, our attempts to have co-operation in the South will be futile.

Dr M S MOGOBA: Chairperson, the world of the 21st century has become a global village with clear interlinkages and interdependencies. Nevertheless, the cleavages, contradictions and prejudices of the past continue to manifest themselves. The recent cases of the bid for the World Cup and the long debate over the franchise for sherry wine illustrate the point.

The history and debate of the North-South problem is fairly old. It is a relationship not only between the haves and the have-nots, but one in which the existence of the haves depends on the permanent weakness of the have- nots.

In 1980 Dr Green calculated that, whereas $450 billion was spent on armament, development aid only received 5% of this figure. The military expenditure of only half a day will suffice to finance the whole malaria eradication programme of the World Health Organisation. The cost of one tank will provide 1000 classrooms for 30 000 children. The philosophy of development in the developing South must change our thinking and orientation in very clear ways. We must move away from trying to create ``an enabling environment to attract foreign capital’’. We must emphasise domestic savings which alone will put us on the road to development. We need to import technology.

Foreign capital usually comes with its own technology and exploitation, managerial and technical knowledge. The developing South must clearly state that it wants only technology, but will provide its own capital and management skills. Foreign debt is a real millstone around the necks of developing countries. One analyst made this point very clear, saying that debts drain our economies of our savings. Debts are in many instances illegitimate. Also, having paid the debt in the form of debt-servicing three times over in the past years, Africa is now more than three times in debt over and above what she has paid already.

Miss S RAJBALLY: Mr Chairperson, the MF is in full support of development and advancement for South Africa in all sectors. The MF also supports the notion that we can learn from others.

While in support of South Africa building better relationships with countries around the globe, it is felt that we must bear in mind that circumstances vary from country to country. South Africa constitutes part of a varying continent, with a variety of needs and commitments to contend with. Although it would be a remarkable effort to initiate such a borrowing of ideas, it should be kept in mind that what may work in one place may not necessarily work for us. We see this internally as well when policy is applied, because there is a variety of results from province to province. The MF supports the idea, but is sceptical of its success.

Also, taking into account that we have recently entered the global market and that our rand has taken a beating, there are a lot of factors that may hinder the pursuance of capacity-building. We have little room to explore and experiment because of circumstances.

However, the MF supports South-South co-operation as a mechanism to reinforce national and regional efforts in capacity-building, even though there are a lot of factors that hinder capacity-building. There must be a way around this that would influence development and address poverty. The MF is by no means ruling out the possibility of this working towards institutional infrastructure and human resource development, and therefore supports the programme. [Applause.]

Mr D S MAIMANE: Mr Chairperson, hon members, I am tempted, in my input on this subject, to expose the history of underdevelopment and development. It is important to know that there are three historical phases which constitute the cornerstone of underdevelopment and development of the North. These three historical phases are the mercantilist period, the colonial period and the neo-colonial period. When we look at the three phases, we see that they have contributed substantially towards the continued underdevelopment of the South.

Perhaps it is important once again to quote one of the sons of our country, Dr Albert Luthuli, when he addressed Oslo University on 11 December 1961. He had this to say, and I quote:

Our continent has been carved up by the great powers. Alien governments have been forced upon the African people by military conquest and by economic domination. Striving for nationhood and national dignity have been beaten down by force. Traditional economies and ancient customs have been disrupted, and human skills and energy have been harnessed for the advantage of our conquerors. In these times there has been no peace. There could be no brotherhood between men.

It is the type of belief which is reflected in the words of Dr Albert Luthuli that makes me stand where I am in so far as this question is concerned. [Applause.] All of these phases are responsible, as I said, for the continued underdevelopment and poverty.

The last phase that we find ourselves confronted with is the neo-colonial period, which requires the wisdom that is contained in the Nepad and other African initiatives.

Of particular importance in this regard is the role of the multinational corporations in so far as how they relate to our countries. International institutions which are meant to provide financial and material resources to the developing nations of our world are playing the role of a master who dictates the terms.

It is very important to highlight that such behaviour precludes peaceful world order. Our region, therefore, needs to be organised in order to make its voice heard in the world of nations and in order to deal with poverty and underdevelopment. Such requirements dictate to us that we need to challenge these financial institutions as developing nations.

One of Africa’s heroes, Comrade Amilcar Cabral, said ``Tell no lies and claim no easy victories.’’ We need not shy away from the truth that underdevelopment and poverty are still there. We need not sweep them under the carpet; we can still see them. It is this type of conviction that makes it imperative for us to adopt pragmatic steps which are intended to mobilise the South to have a voice in the nations of the world.

In his opening-of-Parliament address, the President, Comrade Thabo Mbeki, had this to say: ``Decision-makers across the globe have accepted the reality that the global struggle to eradicate poverty and underdevelopment is fundamental to the wellbeing of human society.’’

This statement is a reflection of victory of those exploited by the developed nations of the North. It is courageous words of this type that compel me to believe that the ANC is the only movement that can provide solutions for the underdeveloped SADC region through formal structures of government.

Institutional development, together with its concomitant human resource development, requires the financial contribution of those developed nations of the world. South-South co-operation can better ensure maximum exploitation of this opportunity. Both financial and material resources are needed, as I have said. It is this type of co-operation that can place the developing nations of the world in a better position to be involved in trade on an equal footing. Such an advantage will stimulate their economies and bring normality to societies in the South.

Motswana fa a le mo maemong a a gwetlhang jaaka a, a re fifing go tshwaranwa ka dikobo. Re ka se ke ra letla mang kgotsa mang go re laolela tsela ya tlhabologo. Re itse ditlhoko tsa rona, mme re tla itirela. Ke rata go leboga Moporesidente Thabo Mbeki go re baya komana madula-a-bapile mabapi le go nna seoposengwe kgatlhanong le lehuma, botlhokatiro le malwetse. Ke gwetlha setšhaba go latela ponelopele ya ANC le Moporesidente Thabo Mbeki mo go ageng naga ya rona, Aforika Borwa, le dinaga tse di mabapi jaaka Mozambique, Botswana le a mangwe a a itlhokelang.

Motswana o buile a re: Molomo wa tau kotana tshika tsa ona di a wela. Fa le mo nakong e re bua ka ditlhokego tsa lefatshe le le humanegileng, bontsi bo lebeletse gore bo ka buna jang go tswa mo go rona, mme rona re tshwanelwa ke go nna re lebeletse ka tlhoafalo, mme re sa letle mang kana mang go re isa kwa re sa tshwannang teng. (Translation of Tswana paragraphs follows.)

[When he is in a challenging situation like this one, a Motswana would say that unity is power. We cannot allow any person to shape our development. We know our needs and we will therefore do things for ourselves. I would like to thank President Thabo Mbeki for helping us unite against poverty, unemployment and disease. I urge the nation to follow the vision of the ANC and President Thabo Mbeki in building our country, South Africa, as well as neighbouring countries like Mozambique, Botswana and other poor countries.

The Motswana of yesteryear said that children should be seen, but not heard. When we speak of the needs of the poor countries, some people are looking at how they can benefit from us. We have to guard against being manipulated by anyone.]

We attribute the successes of Nepad projects, such as the promotion of peace, democracy, human rights and sound economic management, to South- South co-operation in the SADC region in particular. This is a very important step, which the developing nations in SADC have taken to ensure that there is peace on our subcontinent.

Bagaetsho, re tla tshwanela ke gonna kompa, go netefatsa tota gore ba ga borona mo dinageng, ba batlhokang tse di rileng, ba tswelwa mosola ke matsapa a rona re le ba south/south mme re dirisane. Ga gona ka mokgwa o mongwe o re tla letlang batho ba batswang kwa di nageng di sele go re bolelela gore re dire eng kgotsa re seka ra dira eng.

Re tshwanetse gonna kelotlhoko, gonne go batho ba eleng gore tota tota khumanego ya rona mo go bona e ka tswa e le khumo. Ke rata gore bao ba ba tswaraganeng le namane e tona ya tiro - go akaretsa Motlatsa Presidente, comrade Jacob Zuma, jaaka a ne a etetse mahatshe a Aforika - ke re Motswana o rile, molomo wa kgomo tshwara thata, e sere o utlwa sebodu wa kgaoga tau. Jaanong, fa ke go boka, ke gore o tau tshetla la bo sebata se masela. Tswelelapele mo tirong ya gago. Ke a leboga. [Legofi.] (Translation of Tswana paragraphs follows.)

[As the South-South countries we have to be united in ensuring that our people in the poorer countries benefit from our initiatives. We are not going to let people from foreign countries tell us what to do.

We have to be very careful because there are people about whom it may be said that our poverty is their wealth. I would like to tell those who are committed to this task, including the Deputy President, Comrade Jacob Zuma, that they should keep on persevering and not let anything discourage them. I would like to praise him by saying that he is like a roaring lion in the wilderness. He should keep up the good work. [Applause.]]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! The subject we debated today will come out once again in two international fora in the next few days, namely the Monterrey conference in Mexico and the IPU conference in Marrakech. Members will, I trust, follow the outcome of these fora and pursue a deep interest in the subject.

Debate concluded.

The House adjourned at 17:16. ____

            ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS

ANNOUNCEMENTS:

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces:

1. The Speaker and the Chairperson:

 (1)    The following Bills were introduced by the Minister  of  Finance
     in the National Assembly on 12  March  2002  and  referred  to  the
     Joint Tagging Mechanism (JTM) for classification in terms of  Joint
     Rule 160:


     (i)     Social Grants Appropriation Bill [B  9  -  2002]  (National
           Assembly - sec 77);


     (ii)    Burundi Protection  Support  Appropriation  Bill  [B  10  -
           2002] (National Assembly - sec 77).


     The Bills have been referred to the Portfolio Committee on  Finance
     of the National Assembly.


     In terms of Joint Rule 154 written views on the  classification  of
     the Bills may be submitted to the  Joint  Tagging  Mechanism  (JTM)
     within three parliamentary working days.

TABLINGS:

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces:

Papers:

1. The Minister of Finance:

 (1)    Explanatory Memorandum on the Social Grants Appropriation  Bill,
     2002 [B9-2002]


 (2)     Explanatory  Memorandum  on  the  Burundi  Protection   Support
     Appropriation Bill, 2002 [B10-2002]


 (3)    Resolutions of the Standing Committee  on  Public  Accounts  for
     2001 and replies thereto obtained by the National  Treasury:  Tenth
     and Fourteenth Reports, 2001.


 (4)    Strategic Plan for Statistics South Africa for 2002-2005.

1. The Minister for Environmental Affairs and Tourism:

 Strategic Plan for Environmental Affairs and Tourism 2002-2005.

1. The Minister for the Public Service and Administration:

 Medium Term Strategic Plan for the Public  Service  and  Administration
 for 2002-2005.