FRIDAY, 10 MAY 2002
                                ____

                PROCEEDINGS OF THE NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
                                ____

The House met at 09:02.

The Chairperson of Committees took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayers or meditation.

ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS - see col 000.

                          NOTICES OF MOTION

Mr F BHENGU: Mr Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the ANC:

That the House -

(1) notes with sadness the death of Thabang Mbele, a 17-year-old rugby player from Potchefstroom Boys High School, as a result of injuries sustained while playing in a rugby match;

(2) notes that this is the latest in a series of fatal and serious injuries in rugby, which have claimed the lives of five other boys recently and left others maimed;

(3) recognises these injuries as catastrophic for rugby as a game;

(4) conveys condolences to the families of Thabang Mbele, Hendrik van der Walt, Sisanda Nombekela, Thembisile Nqinekile, Denver Smith, Christian Miller and all young rugby-playing boys recently deceased as a result of injuries sustained while playing the game; and

(5) calls on the rugby authorities to implement measures which will reduce and eliminate fatal and catastrophic injuries in rugby. [Applause.]

Mr R JANKIELSOHN: Mr Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move:

That the House -

(1) notes that -

   (a)  the DA has requested the Public Protector to investigate an
       illegal protest that was arranged by the ANC in Frankfort in
       which schoolchildren were enticed from their classrooms to
       bolster the number of protesters outside the courthouse;


   (b)  private and public property was damaged and a child injured
       during this protest;


   (c)  racist hate speech was the order of the day during this protest
       and a follow-up protest by the ANC Youth League two weeks later;
       and ...

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! Hon member, you are permitted to use that placard as a reference, not for permanent display throughout your motion.

Mr R JANKIELSOHN:

   (d)  ANC MP Dennis Bloem danced with the protestors, many of whom
       should have been in school; and

(2) calls on the ANC to accept responsibility for the damage to property, the moral corruption of schoolchildren, and the increase of racial tension in this community. [Interjections.]

Here is my reference, which says: ``Die … boers.’’ [Interjections.] Mr A M MPONTSHANE: Mr Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the IFP:

That the House -

(1) recognises that a huge number of our people are living under extreme poverty;

(2) acknowledges also that there are urgent and desperate calls from the labour and NGO movements that the Government should at least give a grant of R100 to every unemployed person or poor household to alleviate poverty;

(3) further acknowledges that the Minister of Social Development, Dr Skweyiya, respects and understands the tone of these sentiments but believes that there is no capacity at the moment to yield to this request; and

(4) hopes and believes that in the foreseeable future there will be some social reprieve for the poor people, given such understanding by the Minister.

Ms N F MATHIBELA: Mr Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the ANC:

That the House -

(1) notes that President Thabo Mbeki was due to start intense talks to get the faltering peace process in the war-ravaged Democratic Republic of Congo back on track;

(2) further notes that the Congolese Liberation Movement, the MLC, may still join the talks; and

(3) commends President Thabo Mbeki and the Government of South Africa for their unwavering commitment to seeking a peaceful solution to the problems in Congo. [Applause.]

Mnr J J NIEMANN: Mnr die Voorsitter, ek gee hiermee kennis dat ek op die volgende sittingsdag die volgende gaan voorstel:

Dat die Huis -

(1) kennis neem -

   (a)  van die afbrekende uitspraak wat gemaak is deur 'n werknemer van
       die nasionale Departement van Vervoer, naamlik dat die
       Departement in beginsel nie moet bydra tot enige Afrikaanse
       publikasie nie, want 90% van die mense wat op paaie doodgaan, is
       swart en arm;


   (b)  dat meeste Die Burger-lesers bruin en arm is - toevallig die
       gemeenskap waaruit die Minister self kom - en dat daar nie so
       teen Afrikaanssprekendes gediskrimineer kan word nie; en


   (c)  dat hierdie uitspraak duidelik teenstrydig is met die Regering
       se beleid van eenheid in diversiteit; en

(2) ‘n dringende beroep op die Minister van Vervoer doen om ondersoek in te stel na hierdie insident en aan ons die versekering te gee dat die betrokkenes nie namens hom of die departement gepraat het nie, want Suid-Afrika kan nie bekostig om in twee verskillende klasse verdeel te word nie. (Translation of Afrikaans notice of motion follows.)

[Mr J J NIEMANN: Mr Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move:

That the House -

(1) takes note -

   (a)  of the destructive remark made by an employee of the national
       Department of Transport, namely that in principle the department
       should not contribute to any Afrikaans publication, because 90%
       of people who die on our road are black and poor;


   (b)  that the majority of Die Burger readers are coloured and poor -
       incidentally the community from which the Minister comes - and
       that we cannot discriminate against Afrikaans speakers in this
       manner; and


   (c)  that this remark is clearly incongruous with the Government's
       policy of unity in diversity; and

(2) makes an urgent appeal to the Minister of Transport to investigate this incident and to give us the assurance that the people involved did not speak on behalf of the Minister or the department, because South Africa cannot afford to be divided into two different classes.]

Mr D G MKONO: Mr Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the UDM:

That the House -

(1) notes that yet another outbreak of cholera has occurred in the Eastern Cape, affecting the areas of Nqanduli, Umtata and Port St Johns;

(2) supports a decision to declare the affected region a disaster area; and

(3) acknowledges that lack of development and infrastructure lie at the heart of the problem, since pollution and inadequate sanitation are the direct causes of outbreaks of cholera and other diseases.

Mr V G SMITH: Mr Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the ANC:

That the House -

(1) notes that the United States delayed the issuing of a visa to Mr Tokyo Sexwale due to his participation in the armed struggle against apartheid;

(2) believes that this delay suggests that the United States is still listing the ANC as a terrorist organisation;

(3) condemns the delay in issuing Comrade Tokyo Sexwale a passport; and

(4) further calls on the US administration to focus on dealing with state-sponsored terrorism by the Israeli forces against the unarmed civilians, women and children in Palestine. [Applause.]

Ms C DUDLEY: Mr Chairman, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the ACDP: That the House -

(1) notes that the Health Portfolio Committee held oversight hearings into the Choice on Termination of Pregnancy Act on 7 and 8 May 2002, and that these hearings were funded and organised by the Reproductive Rights Alliance;

(2) further notes that although the hearings excluded all pro-life doctors, nurses and organisations, the ACDP was not restricted or hampered in expressing concern, questioning presenters or responding to the accusations of members in spite of the fact that the ACDP makes no apology for its conviction that abortion is a tragedy and passionately disagrees with the ANC’s pro-abortion stance;

(3) acknowledges that the ACDP cannot take the credit or the blame for the silent protest by pro-lifers within the committee room, where they sat for two days listening silently as presenter after presenter discussed and celebrated the termination of the lives of over 220 000 unborn babies since the Choice on Termination of Pregnancy Act was enacted five years ago;

(4) calls on the Portfolio Committee on Health to give pro-life organisations and individuals, especially doctors and nurses, an opportunity … [Time expired.]

Mr I S MFUNDISI: Mr Chairman, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the UCDP:

That the House -

(1) notes with revulsion the bombing and extensive damage this morning to the SABC news offices and other personal property in Kimberley, Northern Cape;

(2) repudiates such dastardly conduct in this era; (3) calls on the public to lend a hand to the police in their efforts to bring these shameless perpetrators to book; and

(4) appeals to the SABC members, the public and Zodwa Tlebeyapelo, whose vehicles were destroyed in the incident, to remain calm in the full knowledge that this also shall pass. [Applause.]

Mrs R R JOEMAT: Mr Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the ANC:

That the House -

(1) notes that the Western Cape Department of Health has launched a massive campaign to give polio immunisations to at least 90% of the province’s 425 000 children under the age of five;

(2) further notes that hundreds of volunteers from technikons and communities took to the street this week, spreading the message about this immunisation programme;

(3) commends the Western Cape Department of Health for embarking on this campaign; and

(4) calls for more volunteers to join the department in the campaign for the immunisation of children. [Applause.]

Mr R S NTULI: Mr Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the DP:

That the House -

(1) notes that the draft Education Laws Amendment Bill intends removing from school governing bodies the right to appoint teachers;

(2) further notes that school governing bodies are elected by the school community, including parents, to look after the best interests of their children; and

(3) therefore calls on the Minister to resist the temptation to further centralise power, but to -

   (a)  trust parents to do what is best for their children; and


   (b)  assist parents in this task by fast-tracking the development of
       the management skills of these governing bodies.

Dr U ROOPNARAIN: Mr Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move:

That the House -

(1) compliments and commends the Soweto-researched version of a pneumonia vaccine to reduce the pneumonia incidence in children living with HIV;

(2) conveys its accolades to the team of scientists both from Wits and Emary Universities for coming up with the vaccine; and

(3) hopes that many young lives will be spared by this medical intervention.

Mr G D SCHNEEMAN: Mr Chairman, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the ANC:

That the House -

(1) notes that -

   (a)  a 39-year-old man from Gonubie in East London was convicted for
       indecently assaulting his 10-year-old stepdaughter in East
       London; and


   (b)  child abuse cases in South Africa are on the increase; and

(2) calls on the police and communities to work together to bring the perpetrators of this cowardly and barbaric act to book. [Applause.]

Mev ANNA VAN WYK: Mnr die Voorsitter, ek gee hiermee kennis dat ek op die volgende sittingsdag die sal voorstel:

Dat die Huis sy hartlike gelukwense oordra aan -

(1) Media 24 en me Anet Pienaar, Hoof: Feeste, vir die toekenning wat hulle ontvang het van Sake en Kunste Suid-Afrika, bekend as BASA, en Business Day vir ondernemings wat die kunste ondersteun, met spesifieke verwysing na die Klein Karoo Nasionale Kunstefees;

(2) Kaya-FM, die ander pryswenner in hierdie kategorie; en

 3) al die wenners by SAMA 8 in die verskillende kategorieë van musiek
    vir hul prestasie en hul groot bydrae tot die ekonomie, en veral aan
    die vader van Afrikaanse rock, Anton Goosen, vir sy album Vis innie
    Bos asook vir sy volgehoue bydrae oor 'n lang tydperk om
    oorspronklike inheemse Afrikaanse musiek te bevorder. (Translation of Afrikaans notice of motion follows.)

[Mrs ANNA VAN WYK: Mr Chairman, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move:

That the House conveys its sincere congratulations to -

(1) Media 24 and Ms Anet Pienaar, Head: Festivals, on the award they received from Business and Arts South Africa, known as BASA, and Business Day for ventures in support of the arts, with specific reference to the Klein Karoo Nasionale Kunstefees; (2) Kaya-FM, the other prizewinner in this category; and

(3) all of the winners in the various categories of music at SAMA 8 on their achievement and their big contribution to the economy, and especially to the father of Afrikaans rock, Anton Goosen, for his album Vis innie Bos as well as his sustained contribution to promoting original home-grown Afrikaans music over a long period.]

Mr J T MASEKA: Mr Chairman, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move:

That the House -

(1) notes that the World Bank has reported that 40 000 of South Africa’s 350 000 teachers have HIV/Aids;

(2) further notes the unacceptable response to this statistics report by the spokesperson for the Minister of Education, who stated that there are already numerous programmes in place;

(3) calls on the Minister of Education to ensure that all the relevant key role-players partake in the upcoming Aids convention, to combine all resources and to find the best route for the South African education sector; and

(4) calls on Government to be more holistic in its approach to the treatment of HIV/Aids.

Mr B J NOBUNGA: Mr Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the ANC:

That the House -

(1) notes that -

   (a)  the United Nations World Food Programme has started distributing
       food aid to thousands of severely malnourished people in remote
       areas in Angola; and


   (b)  R534 million is still needed for aid; and

(2) calls on the people of South Africa and businesses to lend a caring hand and to provide material support and other forms of support to the Angolan people. [Applause.]

Mr T D LEE: Chairperson, could I address you on a point of order?

Terwyl die mosies hier aangekondig is, het die agb, en baie onverantwoordelike, lid Bloem in hierdie Raadsaal rondgedans en intimiderende gebare teenoor die agb Jankielsohn gemaak. Ek dink sy optrede is onverantwoordelik en onaanvaarbaar. [Tussenwerpsels.] (Translation of Afrikaans point of order follows.)

[While the motions were being announced here, the hon and very irresponsible member Bloem was dancing around this Chamber, gesticulating intimidatingly towards the hon Jankielsohn. I think his actions are irresponsible and unacceptable. [Interjections.]]

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! Hon Bloem, can you explain what has transpired?

Mr D V BLOEM: Chairperson, honestly, I am confused. [Laughter.] I really do not know what Mr Lee is talking about. I really do not know. He should explain it. Maybe I will understand. [Interjections.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! I want to appeal to hon members to adhere to the rulings of the Chair. We did rectify the display of a poster or banner by one of the hon members of the DP. But, I do not think that it assists us if we then retaliate in unbecoming ways. I therefore want to appeal to members that we should not condone this kind of behaviour.

                            MOTHER'S DAY
                         (Draft Resolution)

The DEPUTY CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Chairperson, I move without notice:

That the House -

 (1)    notes that Sunday, 12 May, is Mother's Day;


 (2)    recognises that the role of motherhood is often undervalued and
     overlooked in society;


 (3)    acknowledges, on behalf of all South Africans, the debt we all
     owe our mothers who have conceived, delivered and nurtured us; and


 (4)    wishes all mothers a very happy Mother's Day and pledges to
     fight for the safety and dignity of all women.

Agreed to.

        INJURED MITCHELLS PLAIN MOTHER AND DEATH OF HER BABY

                         (Draft Resolution)

Mr T D LEE: Chairperson, I move without notice:

That the House -

(1) expresses its distress at the double tragedy of the pregnant woman seriously injured by a stray bullet in Mitchells Plain on Wednesday night;

(2) strongly regrets the death of her seven-month-old baby, delivered prematurely as she lay in a coma;

(3) appeals to anyone who might know her identity to come forward to assist in finding this woman’s family; and

(4) prays for her full recovery.

Agreed to.

Mr C H F GREYLING: Voorsitter, ek wil nie beswaar maak nie, maar ek wil net die agb lid daarop wys dat ons ‘n reëling het dat daardie tipe mosie voor die tyd gesirkuleer moet word. Ons het dit nie ontvang nie. [Chairperson, I do not want to object, but I would like to point out to the hon member that we have an arrangement that that type of motion be circulated beforehand. We did not receive it.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Orde! Ons sal vra dat die Swepe daarna kyk. [Tussenwerpsels.] [Could we ask that the Whips would deal with the matter? [Interjections.]]

    APPOINTMENT OF MR N P NHLEKO AS CHIEF WHIP OF MAJORITY PARTY

                           (Announcement)

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! Hon members, I have an announcement to make. The announcement is that of the appointment of the Chief Whip of the Majority Party. Mr N P Nhleko has been appointed Chief Whip of the Majority Party with effect from 9 May 2002. [Applause.]

Mnr T D LEE: Voorsitter, die DA wil mnr Nhleko gelukwens met sy aanstelling as hoofsweep van die ANC. Ons besef dat hy die vyfde een in ‘n baie kort tydjie is en soos een van ons lede hier agter gevra het: Vir hoe lank? Ek wil net vir mnr Nhleko sê dat die sukses van hierdie Huis sal afhang van hoe hy met al die partye hier saamwerk. Ons wil dit graag ‘n sukses maak en ons almal sal hom steun en help. [Applous.] (Translation of Afrikaans paragraph follows.)

[Mr T D LEE: Chairperson, the DA would like to congratulate Mr Nhleko on his appointment as Chief Whip of the ANC. We realise that he is the fifth person in a very short time and as one of our members sitting here behind me asked: For how long? I want to tell Mr Nhleko that the success of this House will depend on how he co-operates with all the parties here. We would like to make this a success and we will all support and help him. [Applause.]]

Mr J H VAN DER MERWE: Chairperson, we, as the IFP, wish to associate ourselves with the congratulations which have been expressed by my colleague. We want to offer our co-operation to the newly appointed Chief Whip of the Majority Party, as we have done with the Chief Whips in the past and we wish him well. But, we also want to remind him that the position of Chief Whip of the ANC is an extremely responsible and serious one. We recommend to him that he should follow in the footsteps of the other great persons who have acted in this position, people like Mr Arnold Stofile and others, who made very simple rules. Those rules are that as the Whippery, we are, in fact, a family. We co-operate not on the basis of which party one belongs to, but on merit.

We hope that the hon the Chief Whip of the Majority Party will follow that path and listen to everybody when they have a good case, not because of the party that they belong to. We are sure that he will do that.

Finally, I also wish to remind him of Rule 72(a)(i), which provides expressly that when a new Chief Whip of the ANC is elected, within seven days he must throw a huge party for all members of Parliament. [Laughter.]

Mr C H F GREYLING: Chairperson, on behalf of the New NP, I would like to congratulate Mr Nhleko on his appointment as the Chief Whip of the Majority Party. This is a very important and demanding position in Parliament and we believe that he will do justice to the responsibility that has been placed on his shoulders.

Die agb lid het die moeilike taak om in die voetspore te volg van gedugte voorgangers, maar dit is ons oortuiging dat hy in hierdie posisie aangestel is omdat die meerderheidsparty volle vertroue in hom het om die taak ten beste te kan verrig. Namens die Nuwe NP wens ek hom sterkte en voorspoed toe en glo dat hy ‘n sukses sal maak van sy taak, asook van hierdie uitdagende pos, en dat hy te alle tye ewewigtig en regverdig sal optree. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraph follows.)

[The hon member has the difficult task of following in the footsteps of formidable predecessors, but it is our conviction that he was appointed to this position because the majority party has full confidence in him to perform the task to the best of his ability. On behalf of the New NP I wish him everything of the best and believe that he will make a success of his task, as well as of this challenging post - and that he would act in a level-headed and fair manner at all times.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! It appears that the IFP has not completed its task yet.

Mr J H SLABBERT: Chairperson, the new Chief Whip has been congratulated now. Could he just stand up so that we can see who he is? [Laughter.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! We will give him the opportunity to do so in a few minutes. Mr C T FROLICK: Chairperson, the UDM wishes to associate itself with the sentiments expressed, especially the sentiments articulated by the hon Van der Merwe. We wish the new Chief Whip everything of the best and we can assure him of a good working relationship. [Applause.]

Mrs R M SOUTHGATE: Chairperson, the ACDP wishes to congratulate Mr Nhleko on his appointment as Chief Whip. [Interjections.] We note that he has a heavy task to perform, but we trust that he will maintain good co- operation, communication and relations with all the Whips of the various parties. We would also like to say, as many people have said, that he has a big task before him as he will be walking in the footsteps of others, but I would like to encourage him to plot his own course, because he brings his own flair and dynamism to the office. What we as the ACDP would like to say is that we will support him, obviously within this particular portfolio, and we will also give our co-operation at all times.

Mr I S MFUNDISI: Chairperson, the UCDP would like to congratulate Mr Nkosinathi Nhleko on his appointment. I for one have known him for some time as chairperson of the Portfolio Committee on the Public Service and Administration, a position which he held with great dignity and responsibility. I hope, believe and pray that even in this new assignment he will continue to conduct himself in that very balanced manner and go on to execute his duties with the necessary responsibility and dignity. We congratulate him and assure him that we shall do our best to co-operate with and support him in all his endeavours. [Applause.] [Laughter.]

Mnr J P I BLANCHÉ: Mnr die Voorsitter, die FA wil die agb Hoofsweep gelukwens. Ons glo hy sal ‘n goeie Hoofsweep wees. Ons wil ook iets vir hom sê. Ons wil hom net daaraan herinner dat die man wat die sweep klap, hom moet klap en nie gebruik nie. Ons glo hy sal dienooreenkomstig optree. [Applous.] (Translation of Afrikaans paragraph follows.)

[Mr J P I BLANCHÉ: Mr Chairperson, the FA wants to congratulate the hon Chief Whip. We believe that he will be a good Chief Whip. We also want to tell him something. We just want to remind him that the man who cracks the whip, should crack it and not use it. We believe that he will act accordingly. [Applause.]]

Mr C AUCAMP: Chairperson, on behalf of the AEB I congratulate Mr Nkosinathi Nhleko. [Interjections.] We also give our support to the Chief Whip because we have a lot in common in the Chief Whip’s Forum and in arranging everything. We hope that he will stay in this job a little while. We wish him everything of the best.

I also want to take this opportunity to congratulate the New Deputy Chief Whip.

Ek wil darem net vir mnr Andries Nel ook gelukwens. In ‘n tyd wat dit so sleg gaan daar in Pretoria en met die Blou Bulle wat so verloor het, het hy weer vir Pretoria op die ``map’’ gesit. Baie geluk! [Applous.] [I would also like to congratulate Mr Andries Nel. In a time that it is going so poorly there in Pretoria and with the Blue Bulls that keep losing, he put Pretoria on the map again. Congratulations! [Applause.]]

Dr M S MOGOBA: Mr Chairperson, on behalf of the PAC, I rise to extend our congratulations to our new Chief Whip. The new Chief Whip’s first name, Nkosinathi'', meansthe Lord is with us’’. I believe that expresses our sentiments and we hope that, indeed, he will have staying power, but also steer the course of this House very successfully. We wish him everything of the best. We are looking forward to very happy times in this House. [Applause.]

Miss S RAJBALLY: Mr Chairperson, I thought you did not notice me. I also want to express our heartiest congratulations to Nkosinathi Nhleko. We had a mother-and-son relationship. I hope he does not forget that. [Interjections.] I ask him not to forget to send me an SMS, as he always does when there is a caucus or it is cancelled or whatever. I want to say congratulations. I think we will all work together to help him and the Deputy Chief Whip as well. May God bless them. [Applause.] Mr P J NEFOLOVHODWE: Mr Chairperson, on behalf of Azapo, we wish to congratulate the comrade. We hope that he will steer the work of this important job in a manner that will enhance the spirit of comradeship and co-operation. [Applause.]

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Mr Chairperson, earlier I had thought that in order to be a Chief Whip one had to be bald, like Koos van der Merwe, Douglas Gibson, or Carl Greyling. That is one disadvantage on my part. The second thing is that I also thought that a requirement was that one needed to have lots of grey hair, as had been the case with previous ANC Chief Whips.

However, I do want to thank all the political parties for their words of encouragement, and I hope we will be able to conduct our work in the manner and spirit that has been referred to by a number of political parties here.

We should be driven by only one thing. As Parliament we have a particular function and role to play, and that role is centred on the oversight function of Parliament. For that to succeed, it is clearly essential that parties work together in a co-operative manner and with a common understanding. [Applause.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! May I, on behalf of the Presiding Officers, also add our voice, and congratulate you, Mr Nhleko, on your appointment and assure you of our support in the new role that you will be playing.

                         APPROPRIATION BILL

Debate on Vote No 33 - Water Affairs and Forestry:

The MINISTER OF WATER AFFAIRS AND FORESTRY: Chairperson, it has been a most interesting morning so far. Pula nala le kgotso. [Let there be peace and prosperity.]

From the rain comes the greenery of development and growth that provides peace. Given that it is Mothering Sunday this Sunday, may I dedicate this speech to amakhosikazi namanzi - the women of this country - who play such a crucial role in the water sector.

We are told that Joseph of biblical times came to the Pharaoh’s notice when he interpreted his dreams and warned that seven fat years would be followed by seven lean years. I am not claiming to be a Pharoah or a prophet, but let me say that when the dams are full, as they are now, and the land is fat, as it is, is when we should begin to prepare for the inevitable drought that will follow, for ours is a water-stressed country with varied rainfall.

As the farmers say: ``If the floods do not get you, then the drought will.’’ And we see this to the north, in Zimbabwe, Malawi and Mozambique, at the moment. We have learnt some lessons from our history, and we know better than to eat our corn seed.

In so far as it is possible to prepare, we are prepared for the uncertainties that nature may bring. And in this year of sustainable development our preparedness has been recognised. Inside South Africa we can already claim a major breakthrough in the preparations for the Johannesburg World Summit on Sustainable Development. This breakthrough is the fact that it is internationally accepted that the key sustainability challenge confronting us as a world community is poverty.

It is acknowledged that the main barriers to achieving a world in which the next generation’s inheritance is as good as its predecessor’s are not - and South Africa has led in this - environmental alone, but also social and political. All that is needed is for us to link the political, the social and the environment. If we tackle the challenges of poverty and underdevelopment, the environmental challenges become manageable.

One reason South Africa’s arguments carry weight in this international debate is that we are talking from practical experience. This Government of delivery is not just committed to the ideal of sustainable development, we are implementing it. We have shown that it is possible to provide all South Africans with access to basic water and sanitation, within the framework of sustainable development.

Many countries talk about the importance of recognising this as a basic human right. We are doing just that. We are demonstrating that we can protect the environment and meet all our people’s basic water needs, for which we need - and hon members should listen to the figure - only 1,5% of our nation’s available water resources. That is in the nature of three billion cubic metres of water per annum - three billion of an annual volume of run-off of 50 billion. This is a very good estimate we have made. This has already been reserved, in terms of our National Water Act, and we have made a great start in providing safe, hygienic, environmentally acceptable sanitation. It is demonstrably within our means to ensure a healthy environment for all our people.

Between 1994 - the year of the great democratic change - and April this year, my department has spent well over R5,2 billion providing water supply infrastructure to 7,2 million of our people. Some of the beneficiaries are in the gallery here today. I would like to acknowledge Mrs Langa-Chuene, who was the three-millionth person to receive clean water from our Government programme. She is from Mpumalanga. [Applause.] Malibongwe! [Praise!]

And I would like to acknowledge our latest seven-millionth recipient from the rural areas around Port St. Johns, Mrs Ntuthuma. She is our seven- millionth recipient of clean water. [Applause.] I would also like to point out that we have a very unique group here from the Msinga area of KwaZulu- Natal. Mrs Mzila and Mr Dlamini are from a community that did not wait for the water service, but got involved with Mvula in a partnership and they organised a community water service for themselves. And for that they won the Water Institute of Southern Africa Award this last year. I greet them as well. [Applause.]

We are continuing in this Government and this department to deliver. We will reach that target of 14 million who were without clean water in 1994. We are on our way to the eight-millionth. We will reach it this year and in seven years’ time we will wipe out that dreadful apartheid legacy. [Applause.]

This year we have allocated from my budget a further R888 million for water supply, just on R160 million for sanitation, and a further R200 million for water and sanitation delivery from international donors, who understand that this is a Government and a department they can feel confident in and so they continue to provide us annually with very large donor sums. Amanzi ayimpilo. [Water is life.] And sanitation is not a dirty word. Sanitation is dignity and I am quite happy to be remembered as a Minister of sanitation.

We have borrowed a wonderful phrase from Rand Water, one of our family of water boards, izandla ziyagezana''. [The one hand washes the other.] [Applause.] And we stress this in terms of our drive to ensure that our people are healthy.Izandla ziyagezana’’ also demonstrates the strength of partnership. We can see this from the wonderful gallery today filled with water and forestry sector partners of the department and Government, partners of our communities, and I thank them for being here with us.

At this rate of spending we will wipe out the infrastructure backlog of not only clean water by 2008, but, with this programme of sanitation, we will wipe out the sanitation backlog - as long as the money continues to roll in

• by the year 2010. This is a tremendous achievement in anybody’s language, by a Government that is eradicating poverty and building a better life for all our people, a Government that is delivering on a massive scale. We are pushing back the frontiers of poverty. Our policy of free basic water is ensuring that once we provide the infrastructure everywhere, everyone in this country, in hierdie land'' [in this country] will be served with free basic waterjikele’’ [throughout] Afrika Borwa. [South Africa.] [Applause.]

Already more than 26 million, 66% of the total served by water infrastructure, live in areas where free basic water is being provided, and those numbers are rising. On 1 July, the start of local government’s financial year, another 24 more local authorities will begin implementing this policy, and that will benefit another 3 million of our people with clean basic water. The outstanding 70 municipalities still to introduce free basic water are being targeted with the support they need to ensure that they can also provide free water. With this policy we have completed the foundation to ensure that the constitutional right of access to basic water supply and safe sanitation can be met, and met on a sustainable basis.

Sustainable water and sanitation are about more than meeting basic needs. They are also about economic development and ensuring water services for our people, economy, nation, commerce, industry, agriculture and mining. They are needed to keep the economy growing. ``Amanzi ayimpilo’’. [Water is life.] It is for our health and that of our economy.

The point I want to dwell on today is that to provide a reliable water service, we have to have reliable sources of water. We as a nation must ensure that we have enough water in our rivers and aquifers, the hidden treasures below ground, and that those sources are fit to use and are not polluted.

Earlier this year I had the pleasure to inaugurate the Inyaka Dam near Bushbuckridge. The water that dam stores will ensure that never again will millions of people in the regions of Mpumalanga and Limpopo suffer the absolute shortages that they faced during the 1991-2 drought. We must ensure that we meet the needs of other users such as farmers and large industries. There should be water to cool the power stations of Eskom that drive our economy and produce the wealth required to build the economy and ensure a better life for our people.

But, dam building is not the only way to achieve the goal of water security, as important as it is. I will return to this. There are other instruments at our disposal and we must choose and use them well. It used to be said that South Africa would run out of water by the year 2030. This frightened us out of our wits. It was said that we would fight each other over the last glass of clean water. These were greatly exaggerated statements from the past. It is not true. We have more than enough water to build the society of all our dreams and to meet the needs of all. This does not mean that we have an abundance of metsi'' oramanzi’’. [Water.] We cannot sit back and do nothing. On the contrary, we have enough water, because we have the political will and professional skill to make the most of what is available, even though we have relatively little water per person compared to many other countries. We are indeed a water-stressed country.

Why am I sounding so confident? The basis of my optimism and my assertion that there is enough water for us to live, grow and thrive, is the national water resource strategy that we will be publishing in July this year for public comment. The national water strategy is South Africa’s blueprint for survival. This term was coined by Edward Goldsmith, pioneer of sustainable development. It is the product of four years of intensive work since the passing of the National Water Act in 1998. The national water strategy sets out strategies, plans and procedures to achieve these aims. It is a remarkable and ambitious document, the first of its kind, not only in South Africa but one of the first in ``die hele wêreld’’. [The whole world.]

The strategy addresses how we will protect our water, allocate the right to use it - not the way it was allocated in the past - develop it and manage it. This is the instrument provided by our National Water Act, which has now come to the Statute Book and goes down to the fields, mines, power stations and municipalities.

Some of our critics claim that we are moving too slowly. They need to come down from their ivory towers and find out what is happening on the ground, engage with Government, work with us and jointly work out how we, as a nation, can work better, because we always have to find out how to do it better. Economists Bate and Tren complain in their book The Cost of Free Water, published by, guess, the Free Market Foundation, that:

It seems apparent that while the admirable goals of social equity, ecological and financial sustainability remain, the proposals are caught up in bureaucratic machinery with little prospect of having any impact in the short or medium term.

What a laugh! They must check what is being done and the time that we are taking for implementing a policy like this. They must check what the rich world is doing. The European Union’s Water Framework Directive covers similar areas as our water strategy. It estimates that it would take six years to prepare the draft catchment plans, eight years to initiate water pricing, ten years to implement and 25 years before good water status is achieved throughout Europe.

``Kyk na hierdie land’’! [Look at this country!] In 1994, democracy at last, in 1998, our new Water Act, and four years later we have our blueprint for development! And that is South Africa, that is democracy and that is this Government. [Applause.] When one compares our progress with Europe’s proposed timetable, one can see that our actual pace of implementation has in some areas exceeded the European targets. I can tell hon members that already more than 46 000 water users have been registered. These users account for about 90% of the country’s water use. Those water users I refer to are not hon members and me; they are mine owners, industrialists, big agriculture and irrigation farmers. We are registering and licensing them. They account for 90% of the water use, and 689 new licences have been issued.

In case there are water users who think that because they are far away from Pretoria they will be able to escape the new laws, I must say to them, bad luck. We did not have to send Mark Shuttleworth into space for us. This department and Government are already using satellite images dating back to 1998, and the implementation of the National Water Act, so that when a Mrs Fletcher of Tosca in the far Northern Cape complained to me that boreholes on her farm were being dried up by neighbours who had started to irrigate new fields, I was able to reassure her. We know that those limestone caverns she relies on can provide a secure, reliable source of water if we are not greedy, but if too much water is taken out they simply dry up, and we will not allow that to happen.

I give notice here to all those who seek to stake a claim as existing users of water by unreasonable expansion of irrigation in dry areas where there is simply not enough water, that they are wasting their time and money. Eye- in-the-sky technology is keeping track of them and our satellite images will very quickly prove who is using water lawfully and who is taking a chance with the law.

I hope I have assured hon members that our Government has already put in place much of the administrative machinery we need in order to manage our nation’s water use. Part of the costs of implementing the National Water Act will come from new revenues, we estimate about R50 million, which we will be collecting in terms of the national water pricing policy. Before my radical critics rise up in protest and allege that I am privatising water, let me emphasise that we are doing the opposite. We are ensuring that water is used in the public interest. With this system, we are moving further away from the situation where people who owned land in the past could claim the right to whatever flowed past them, and used however much they wanted to, regardless of the unfortunates out of sight and away from the river.

The apartheid riparian practices are dead, buried and gone forever. [Applause.] Since 1998 our water has been managed for the benefit of all. But, of course, and this is the reality, it costs money to manage water well and it is only right that those who use most should pay most. So, I must praise Thekwini and Msunduzi municipalities for reaching agreement with Umgeni Water, under the leadership of the new CEO, Gugu Moloi, who is here with chairman Omar Latiff and others, in accepting responsibility for rural communities in their areas and settling their tariff dispute. This has enabled Umgeni to ensure that this year’s tariff increases will be kept to within a percent of inflation, and already their credit rating, the cost of their money, has improved.

I would also like to celebrate the agreement reached between Rand Water and the Chamber of Mines. I see the chairperson, Phiroshaw Camay, and others from Rand Water here. The agreement they have reached with the Chamber of Mines is that the mines will no longer enjoy the preferential tariffs of the past, paying less for their water than the poor around them. I am delighted to see the industry accepting its responsibilities to our broader society.

Similarly, the new water resource management charges levied from 1 April will not affect rural households that are simply growing a few vegetables in their vegetable gardens or providing water for some grazing cattle and goats. It affects the mines, the large industries, the municipalities, local government and those farmers who are responsible for using more than 51% of the nation’s water, which goes to irrigation farming, as well as ensuring that those who benefit from dams and other large waterworks pay for the privilege. Water pricing will fund the agencies responsible for monitoring water use, implementing programmes of water conservation and infrastructure construction to ensure that our development is not unjustifiably constrained.

I want to salute the forestry industry - I see Mike Edwards of Forestry SA and others are here with us - for two important steps. Firstly, they have recognised the importance of managing water and are supporting the registering of plantation forestry as a water use, one form of stream flow reduction activity of which more and more are under examination. They know that environmental protection brings commercial benefits since they have to show the world market that they manage their plantations in a sustainable way, as the Sappis and the Mondis are now doing.

Secondly, in order to make the system work more effectively, they are discussing how they can assist us to collect the water management charges that will be levied against their very thirsty business. We need to build this kind of co-operative arrangement to ensure that we support this industry, whether by improving our administrative efficiency or by working with my colleague, the Minister of Transport, to help keep their transport costs under control.

This Government regards forestry as a vital component of effective rural development. This past year has seen substantial progress in restructuring state forests, those of the former homelands run by my department and those of Safcol. The process of leasing the large forests is now virtually complete. There has been real black empowerment and very tangible community benefits in the form of rentals for land used and shares in the forest company themselves. I want to pay credit to my Chief Director: Forestry, Lael Bethlehem, and her team for the tremendous work they have done. [Applause.]

This Government knows that job creation is one of the greatest challenges we face, that we are going to be measured by our achievements in this field. There are encouraging developments in the forestry sector.

A small KwaZulu-Natal company which collected the sap from pine trees, which is processed to make special chemicals, ran into financial trouble. When my director of commercial forestry learned of this, he encouraged another company to get into the business. The firm wrote to us to say that at the time the previous firm ceased to trade 250 people were employed and were harvesting 100 000 kg of resin a month and now:

``We now employ five times the number and harvest five times the
amount. We are continuing to expand and hope to have a resin processing
factory by January next year, which will create another 28 positions.
We feel you should be aware that your input into this industry has
directly created 315 jobs, with the potential for another 350. [Applause.]

Opportunities are there to be found, and I have given a small example of this. I believe there is scope to afforest a further 100 000 hectares in the Eastern Cape, which is not being done because of the complications of using communally held land. The example of Singisi Forest products should, over the next few years, lead to a new partnership between communities and their traditional leaders, forest companies, provinces and so on, and create more jobs.

There are several women in the gallery today from the agricultural sector. I am referring to Susan Richards, Cynthia Coopman and others from the Western Cape. At Lotto near Vredendal there is a cedar-cypress venture where access to water allocation has given women farmers - and there are about a dozen with us today - opportunities to engage in commercial farming which they never had before. I salute them.

Our efforts are not limited to South Africa. Following the President’s call to make this the African century, we have focused attention on this continent and at international forums. At the Second World Water Forum in the Hague, representatives of our water sector played a major role in formulating a vision for action. Our participation in the Bonn International Freshwater Conference contributed to the formulation of the position on water and sanitation for the Earth Summit.

What was once a heresy, the free basic water programme that we have introduced, and which was opposed by the world’s institutions the World Bank and others, is now recognised as a legitimate way to proceed in circumstances such as ours. The Nepad agenda has been strongly promoted and African water task forces focused on ways in which water could help to eradicate poverty and achieve sustainable development in Africa. This position was carried forward just last week to the African Ministerial Conference on Water, held in Abuja, Nigeria, which I attended. At this conference we agreed on an African position on water and sanitation that will see us Africans speaking with one voice as Africans at the World Summit on Sustainable Development in Johannesburg.

At the summit, one of the major supporting events will be a massive exhibition and programme of presentations, debates and so on for the week - the World Water Dome. During the week, progress made on the framework of action will be reviewed and actions identified to bridge gaps between commitment, delivery and goals.

I personally sought opportunities to discuss the summit and how water and sanitation link the broader development agenda with Ministers from developed and developing countries from all over the world, and we have made tremendous progress in reaching a common approach.

As I said at the beginning, our influence on sustainable development debate comes from the fact that we are doing things, and not just talking. We are engaged in a range of initiatives designed in part to ensure our water security as a region. The Maguga Dam in Swaziland was opened a few months ago by King Mswati III and Deputy President Zuma. This joint project on shared rivers will create 18 000 jobs on the citrus and sugar farms of Swaziland, as well as opportunities for 1 100 emergent black farmers in South Africa.

Just a few days ago in Swaziland I met my counterparts from Swaziland and Mozambique to finalise the shared river agreement that, when ratified, will establish a systematic basis for further co-operation.

The Lesotho Highlands Water Project is progressing well. In October 2001 the Matsoka Diversion Weir and tunnel were commissioned and the construction of the Mohale Dam is now substantially complete. The contracts for the Matsoka Diversion and the Mohale Dam were completed within the original budget, and the flow of water through the Mohale tunnel is expected to commence at the beginning of January 2004. I notice representatives from the Trans-Caledon Tunnel Authority here, as well as the CEO, Martie van Rensburg. I greet her and commend her for what has been achieved by the Trans-Caledon Tunnel Authority.

The National Water Resource Strategy outlines the future requirements of water for different regions of the country. But I can tell hon members now that the completion of this project means that the water supply for the industrial heartland of our region has been secured for at least a decade and more, and we have many more options to develop and ensure sustainability as our needs arise. We will do so by managing our water, and by developing infrastructure where appropriate.

As we face the challenges of climate change, I am struck by how poor Africa is with regard to the collection and storage of water. Figures I have recently looked at and studied, from the World Bank no less - which has opposed the development of more dams - are a real eye-opener. Hon members must understand the difference between the rich and the poor, the developed and the developing countries. We understand that through GDPs, life expectancy, infant mortality, etc. Listen to the statistics. In the United States they store in their dams and reservoirs over 6 000 cubic metres of water per capita, in other words, for every person there is 6 000 cubic metres in reserve. In our country, leading in Africa, we store 746 cubic metres, about a tenth of that of the United States. But in the rest of Africa it is a hundredth of that of the United States. Ethiopia, for instance, can only store 40 cubic metres, and Kenya only four cubic metres. Our climate is more uncertain, justifying more and not less storage.

Despite this self-evident fact we still have the anti-dam lobbyists and brigade opposing projects such as the new dam on the Berg River, which will secure Cape Town’s economic and social development. I am very pleased to see the hon Graham McIntosh’s letter in the Cape Times this morning, supporting the building of this dam.

I have been lucky to date. I am being regarded as the ``Minister of Good Rains’’. However, we cannot rely on luck. Our people understand the issues. They know that we should not be seduced by the good years. We must put aside enough water and food, as the Pharaoh of Joseph did, during rainy days and good periods, to use during poverty and drought.

So, while we focus on delivering clean water and adequate sanitation to our people, we also develop and manage our water and forestry resources in a sustainable way to secure the wellbeing of our economy and people for all time to come.

This is a responsible government, a government of delivery, a government which is building a better life for our people and a government which believes in partnerships. I see in the gallery Trevor Field of Roundabout Play Pumps, who, together with the private sector and my assistance, has managed to attract funds for 240 of these magical play pumps at R45 000 a piece, so that schoolchildren at play at schools in the poor rural areas are able to pump up the water, through expending their energy on the play pump, for storage in a water tank which bears an HIV/Aids message. [Applause.] This is a wonderful portfolio and attracts dedicated people.

My thanks go to the chairperson of the portfolio committee, Comrade Buyelwa Sonjica, and maLydia Ngwenya, two of our recently recognised ``Amakhosikazi Namanzi’’ [Women in Water] on whom I had the pleasure to confer our new Women in Water Awards recently. Malibongwe! [Applause.] To all members of the portfolio committee, my thanks.

Finally, let me express my appreciation to Guy Preston of Working for Water and our Working for Water teams that I spoke about in the NCOP yesterday, to my director general, Mike Muller, who has led the department which delivers and will continue to deliver. They have a tremendous job and deserve our nation’s gratitude.

I would like particularly to pay tribute to Dr Paul Roberts, our outgoing Deputy Director-General for Water Resources, who has been with this department and Government for 42 years, who helped to develop and build those wonderful structures that ensure that we do indeed have the water available in a sustainable way. [Applause.]

Mr G B D McINTOSH: Mr Chairman, one has to get up early in the morning to catch Minister Ronnie Kasrils out, and obviously if one has 45 minutes where I only have eight, and one has some taxpayers’ money to fly people into the gallery, one has certain marketing advantages which the official Opposition does not have.

What is the role of the official Opposition? The official Opposition … uma sesikhuluma isiZulu, umsebenzi weqembu eliphikisayo ufana nowomkhwekazi emndenini. [… in Zulu we say the work of the opposition party is the same as the work of a mother-in-law in her daughter’s family.] The mother-in-law in a family is not always popular, she makes people learn certain ways of doing things, but she is there to build the family, not to break it down.

One of the small but really exciting successes in South African privatisation has been the Ntsingisi Forest, which has been in operation for about eight or ten months, preceded by a very long process of negotiation. Previously these forests were costing the taxpayer around R200 million cash a year in the former Transkei. After eight months it is breaking even, there are successful community projects and emerging contractors have created 120 new jobs for the poorest and least skilled of our people.

There is one important question, and the Minister must answer this, because if he wants to expand into community forestry, he needs to tell us this: Where has the R9 million in rentals gone that have been paid. Has it gone to the communities or has it not?

The Minister must not worry about the radical critics of privatisation. We have had apartheid and we have had communism. Thank God they are in the past. He must turn his back on the communist critics of privatisation. [Applause.]

Nelspruit and Dolphin Coast are two obvious examples of where privatisation has been extremely successful. In Nelspruit there is a problem of nonpayment which is also organised. Privatisation of water services can release literally billions of rands and also in many cases provide real opportunities for delivery to our people. We have passed regulations in terms of section 19(5) of the Water Services Act which will protect the public interest in privatisation. But what we need is that there should be a small and independent regulatory body, established by an Act of Parliament that is well-funded and staffed by people skilled in special areas. [Interjections.]

The Rand Water Board could be privatised. The Trans-Caledon Tunnel Authority has a R25 billion mandate from the Treasury. It is already advising Umgeni Water, and is also acting as a site agent for the Skuifraam Dam, another example of a unit that could be privatised. Clearly, the process has to be approached very carefully, but I believe there is an opportunity for unlocking huge potential for South Africa.

The annual report of the department is a fine achievement by the Director- General and his team. It is concise and conforms to the new best practice in law and in financial reporting. The new local government dispensation which has come will now give the department the opportunity and huge challenge, both financial and technical, of handing over 334 water schemes of various kinds to local government.

I trust that the Minister will ensure that he makes good use of all the skills and capacity available in our rainbow nation, without racial and gender discrimination, so as to provide a full service and opportunities to all our people, without exception.

Hon members may not know this, but the Lesotho Highlands Water Project is the largest water supply project in the world. The report notes, as the Minister has said, that phase 1 of the R17 billion project is due for completion, although unfortunately - the Minister did not say this - the Mohale Tunnel has been delayed. It should have been finished this year. What is important is that it is economically sustainable. It is paid for by South African taxpayers and has given a huge boost to Lesotho.

What is worrying is the following, and this is going to be a key issue. The Minister should be aware of this at the Johannesburg World Summit. Members who have visited the area would have noticed extensive cultivation on extremely steep slopes of friable, fragile, volcanic soil, severe erosion and inevitable silting. In terms of international agreements, Lesotho is obliged to prevent this type of desertification. The Minister should tell us whether he has spoken to his colleagues in Lesotho, and also whether his department has had a look at the Drakensberg catchment in the Bergville area, where there is also severe desertification. [Interjections.]

I am pleased that the Minister has dealt with that, but according to the annual report we are still not having our protocols approved in terms of agreements wih SADC, and the arrangements with Namibia on the Orange River are dragging. How, this House is entitled to ask, can Nepad mean anything if we cannot even get our SADC agreements sorted out?

The Minister must also tell us what has happened at Dukuduku. Has it been finalised? Have the settlers been moved out of those forests and what is the Minister doing about it?

The water boards appear to have problems. The buck in respect of all the water boards stops on the Minister’s desk. Almost all the department’s problems with these water boards stem from the former Bantustans. The Bushbuckridge Water Board is a joke and ethnicity is a complicating factor.

The forestry mess, which we have almost sorted out, to the credit of the department once again, was a legacy of the Bantustans. Two of the examples of challenges of water services are the Rand Water Board and Umngeni Water Board. The one had only industrial, urban and mining uses and never made use of state money; the other had urban uses, but took on rural water supply and then was forced by Minister Asmal to take on even more rural supply schemes. Now, as the Minister said, it sits with a huge debt. Government has had to bail them out with R120 million. I do not want to go into the details; it is all there in stark financial horror in the annual report. Why does he allow the Umngeni Water Board to gallivant around the world trying to sell expertise when it cannot even manage its own backyard properly? [Interjections.]

Rural water supplies require skilful funding. We forgive enthusiasts a lot, but the Minister must be careful before he promises everybody in South Africa clean potable water and sanitation by 2010. He may, of course, not be in power then. [Time expired.] [Applause.]

Nksz B P SONJICA: Mhlalingaphambili, akudingeki ukuba ndiqale ngokuphedula obu buvuvu bugqiba kuthethwa nguMnu McIntosh. Icacile into eyayihlelelwe nguMnu McIntosh iminyaka elishumi elinesihlanu kule Palamente. Wayehlelele ukuxhasa ingcinezelo eyayigquba ngaphambili kweli. [Kwaqhwatywa.]

Njengokuba ethetha kangaka ngombandela wokuthengiswa kwamashishini kaRhulumente, akathethi egameni labantu abahluphekileyo, uthetha egameni labaxhasi bakhe kuba … (Translation of Xhosa paragraphs follows.)

[Ms B P SONJICA: Chairperson, it is not necessary for me to first respond to this nonsense that has just been said by Mr McIntosh. What Mr McIntosh had stayed in this Parliament for for 15 years is very clear. He remained here to support and encourage the oppression that people were subjected to in this country. [Applause.]

He speaks about privatisation as though he is speaking for the poor people. He is not. He is speaking for his supporters, because …]

… it is his constituency that is going to benefit from privatisation.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! Hon members, I wonder why the interpreting service is not on. The speakers’ list clearly indicates that the member is going to be speaking in isiXhosa.

Ms B P SONJICA: Chairperson, he is speaking for his constituency. He is promoting the interests of his constituency. That is the hypocrisy of the DA. [Interjections.]

Let me take this opportunity to congratulate the Department of Water Affairs and Forestry on the global energy award that it received in 2002 in Austria. This award was in recognition of its role in the delivery of water services to the rural and the urban poor.

Nezizwe zaphesheya ziyamngqina uRhulumente we-ANC okokuba nguRhulumente wabantu. [Kwaqhwatywa.] [Even foreign countries recognize and acknowledge the fact that the ANC Government is the Government of the people. [Applause.]]

The ANC will participate in this Budget Vote under the theme ``Water and Forests for Poverty Alleviation and Development’’, because we acknowledge the Government’s and the department’s central role in development and poverty alleviation. We welcome the growth from R452 million in the 2002-03 budget to R519 million for 2003-04. The department will also benefit from the allocations of the Department of Local Government, especially under the Consolidated Municipal Infrastructure Programme. It will also benefit from other departments such as Housing, because it shares a number of functions with these departments.

Clearly our Government, through this allocation, has displayed an understanding of the significance of investment in water for socioeconomic development, and an understanding of the broad development path in the water sector. The expenditure trends indicate that the Department of Water Affairs, for the past two years, has been meeting a target of plus-minus a million people per annum for water supply. That is quite an impressive performance. However, there are also indications that more needs to be done to avoid underspending by the department. We are aware that underspending is mainly the result of limited capacity at local government level. We also know that some of these institutions are newly established. We welcome the establishment of a task team that will bring together the Department of Water Affairs and Forestry and the Department of Local Government for the purpose of capacity-building. Otherwise the provision of much-needed services will be delayed.

We also need to strengthen our systems at local government and provincial levels. Municipalities need to use the local planning forum and the provincial planning forum, which facilitate meetings between the Department of Water Affairs and local councils at regional level for budgeting and prioritisation. We would appreciate it if the department could continue to improve its debt management and auditing system, as it promised at the Joint Standing Committee on Public Accounts hearing.

There are still problems regarding the manner in which the equitable share is managed. We probably need to explore the possibility of making a percentage of the share conditional so that the payment of services for the poor is always guaranteed. With regard to Foresty, we want to urge the Minister to continue to monitor the black economic empowerment companies, and to nurture them until they are strong enough to stand on their own.

Siyavuya kakhulu ukuva okokuba la mahlathi, ngakumbi lawa akwaSingaLanga nakwaSingisi, sele eze namathuba emisebenzi akumawaka amabini. Siyayivuyela loo nto. [Kwaqhwatywa.] [We are glad to hear that these forests, especially those at Singalanga and Singisi, have opened up approximately two thousand job opportunities. We welcome that. [Applause.]]

The portfolio committee, being concerned about the public debate on the Nelspruit concession, visited Mpumalanga, because we in the ANC have a hands-on approach. We met with all the stakeholders - the council, the trade union and the company, Biwater.

We were encouraged to learn that problems that existed had to a great extent been resolved. However, private sector participation in the provision and supply of water can be viable only for certain communities. It would be prudent for the department to encourage public-public partnerships when necessary. [Applause.]

There appears to be inconsistency in the policy for the development of infrastructure and water schemes under Programme 2, where there is an allocation that will be utilised for information to support the planning and development of infrastructure and the assessment of the viability of water schemes.

Programme 3 deviates from designing new water supply schemes to maintaining existing schemes. If my interpretation is correct, the implication is that the people who have lived in underdeveloped areas will continue to be underserved, which is a contradiction of government’s commitment to redress, and poverty alleviation. Most importantly, they will be denied their basic rights, that is, access to clean water. Also, in a broader sense, development will be delayed in those areas.

An example of what I have spoken about was observed in Mogalakwena, Limpopo. This municipality needs water for socioeconomic development. We request the Minister to look into following the Lesotho Maguga-Nkomati approach, that of creating a special-purpose vehicle like the Trans-Caledon Tunnel Authority, to raise funding for the construction of the Rooipoort Dam. If that project could succeed, the mines would be able to expand and create the much-needed jobs in that area. The surrounding villages would also benefit from the supply of water. Tourism would also flourish in that area. But at this stage I want to commend the department for a very comprehensive dam construction programme, which includes our binational projects in Lesotho, Nkomati, and so on.

Thina sileli Sebe leMicimbi yaManzi naMahlathi sesiyiqalisile iNepad kuba ezi projekti ziphucule intlalo yabantu zavula amathuba emisebenzi zaqinisa ubudlelwane phakathi kwethu nezinye izizwe ezingabamelwane. [Kwaqhwatywa.] [We, as this Department of Water Affairs and Forestry, have already started with Nepad because these projects have improved people’s lives by availing job opportunities, thereby strengthening relations between us and the neighbouring countries. [Applause.]]

The Accra Convention on Water and Sustainable Development says that water- based initiatives must link with broader efforts to promote sustainable development in Africa. It further calls for co-operation in Africa to improve economic conditions. We would encourage that co-operation between the Department of Water Affairs and Forestry and various departments - Social Development, Health, Land Affairs and Agriculture - so that they consolidate their poverty alleviation and development programme to make a greater impact on poverty.

Sifuna ukubona abantu bephuculwa kukuziswa kwamanzi kwiindawo zabo abahlala kuzo, belima iigadi, bengawo namafama asakhasayo. [Kwaqhwatywa.]

Mandimphendule ke ngoku uMnu McIntosh kuba le ngxoxo yakhe iqala ephepheni eliyiMail & Guardian apho athethe khona ubuvuvu esithi ikholera ibangelwe kukuba uRhulumente we-ANC ecothile ukuzisa iinkonzo ebantwini.

ILUNGU ELIHLONIPHEKILELO: Uyahlanya!

Nksz B P SONJICA: Senditshilo ndathi uhleli iminyaka eli-15 engakhange enze nto apha. Into awayeyenza wayekhankasela ingcinezelo, ngoba ukuba wayengakhankaseli ingcinezelo ngesingakhange saqalisa kwa ukusilela oko kwiinkonzo zococeko. Sifumana ukusilela nje yinto yokuba bona bashiye obo buvuvu ngasemva. (Translation of Xhosa paragraphs follows.)

[We want to see people’s lives improving in their communities, starting up gardens, as well as being emerging farmers. [Applause.]

I would now like to respond to Mr McIntosh’s nonsensical argument that appeared in the Mail & Guardian, in which he says that cholera was caused by the fact that the ANC Government delayed its process of providing services to the people.]

An hon MEMBER: He is mad!

[Ms B P SONJICA: I have already said that he remained here for 15 years without doing anything. All he did was to campaign for oppression, because if did not campaign for oppression we would not be this far behind with cleansing services. We are behind because they left that legacy.]

While we support the need to improve performance, we hope that the restructuring of the Working for Water programme will maintain its image because to the portfolio committee this is a flagship programme of the department.

In conclusion, the ANC supports this Budget Vote. We commend our Government for understanding that government is a trust and that the members are trustees, and that both the trust and the trustees are created for the benefit of the people. [Applause.]

Mr M S M SIBIYA: Chairperson, hon Minister, it is encouraging to see that there has been an overall increase of R40 million in the allocation of the Department of Water Affairs and Forestry, despite three of the eight programmes showing decreases in their allocation from the 2001-02 budget. It is particularly pleasing to see that the allocation to the implementation of water services projects, a subprogramme of the Regional Implementation programme, which accounts for about 68% of the total expenditure over the medium term, increases by R226,89 million. Only six of the twelve subprogrammes in the regional implementation programme received increases in their allocations.

The work of the department directly effects the everyday lives of millions of South Africans, but it has an even greater effect on the lives of the rural and poor people of South Africa. Many of them still go to rivers and forests to fetch the water and firewood that are so essential to the everyday running of their households. In most cases it is the women who have to walk long distances every day to fetch the water and wood. This is not only a burden to them but it is also dangerous.

The department must be commended for the outstanding work that it has done, to date, in providing clean, safe water and services to the people of South Africa. According to the Minister, by 2008 the entire backlog of people without access to clean, safe water should be wiped out if the current rate of progress is maintained.

At this stage the department is making good progress in its efforts to provide free basic water to the people, yet it must not stop here. The poor people in the rural areas are still waiting for the promised free water. Many of them have no access to, and have never had, any of the free water. We therefore urge the department to focus on and speed up the delivery of the free basic water to the people in the rural areas.

Projects such as the uThukela Water Partnership, which amalgamates the responsibilities for the provision of water and sanitation services into one coherent organisation, are a step in the right direction. This partnership will have a major impact on the cost of providing management and support for the provision of water services to the people within the catchment area.

We are happy that the department has recognised the need to improve sanitation by building more toilets and spending more money on sanitation programmes, as sanitation is still a major problem and a cause of disease in many areas.

In many of the rural areas in this country the only toilets people have access to are the unhygienic pit toilets that are used by many people. The only water that they have access to is water from boreholes and rivers. When it rains the toilets flood, and dirty water, sometimes containing the bacteria of cholera, seeps into the boreholes and runs into the rivers where these people get their water. The department must move at speed to ensure that the people in these areas get proper toilets so as to help to break the cycle of infection and to wipe out the cholera epidemic once and for all.

The Minister needs to pay particular attention to schools where the water and sanitation facilities are inadequate or nonexistent. The IFP recommends that the Department of Water Affairs and Forestry conduct thorough research into the possibility of using chemical or other substances that break down the waste in toilets. This could, in the future, be used in areas where people cannot afford to maintain flushing toilets.

A key environmental problem facing us is that of water pollution. The consequences of the pollution are often devastating. Although progress in the restructuring of state-owned forestry is being made, we hope that the pace can be picked up in the coming year. We wish the department every success with restructuring as it is very important for black economic empowerment and the upliftment of certain communities.

In conclusion, there are still many people who are in need of clean, safe water and services, so the department still has a lot of hard work left to do. The IFP supports the Budget Vote. [Applause.]

Mr D S MAIMANE: Ke Mokgatla. Modulasetulo, Motlotlegi Tona ya Lefapha la Metsi le Dikgwa, batlotlegi maloko a Ntlo Kokaono bo Setshaba. [I am a Mokgatla. Chairperson, hon Minister of Water Affairs and Forestry, and hon members of the National Assembly …]

… I would like to respond to some reflection of a racist attitude. I would like to tell the hon McIntosh that efficiency is not measured by skin pigmentation. [Interjections.] One need not be white to be efficient. [Applause.] Bushbuck Water is not as he thinks it is. It will remain a true reflection of the new South Africa.

Ke rata gore pele ka Bushbuck Water pele. Mmetlatshipi ya phalaborwa, o e betla a lebile gae. ANC e itse puo ya Motswana tota ka gonne e romile segatlhamela masisi go etela lenaneo la thebolo ya metsi pele. Comrade Ronnie Kasrils o gapa le Fapha la gagwe ka botswapelo le boikanyego.

Gaetsho ko Kgatleng kwa Makau, le Bakwena ba ba bapileng le rona, ba ntheile bare, ba bone matla metlo wa gago le le Fapha mo projekeng e bidiwang Oskraal and Environs Water Supply. [Legofi.]

Bare setopo re supa nakedi, magogwe re mmega a sule. Fa ele di pitse re di bona ka mebala, mme di retwa ditswa mokatong. Ke rata gogo ra ke re, mmatla kgomo kolomela, o etse mfata sediba. (Translation of Tswana paragraphs follows.)

[I would like to firstly speak about the Bushbuck Water. A Motswana says that a person who does an important job, does it to help his people. The ANC knows a Motswana’s language very well, because it has sent a brave person to lead the water supply project. Comrade Ronnie Kasrils leads his department with enthusiasm and trustworthiness.

At my home at Kgatleng at Makau, the Bakwena, who are our neighbours, said to me that they have seen the efforts of the Minister and his department in the project called Oskraal and Environments Water Supply. [Applause.]

They say that they believe in what they see. I would like to say to the Minister that if one wants an important thing, then one should persevere and be patient.]

The department is committed to strengthening local government so as to realise the efficient and effective provision of water to our people. This shall be done through transfers of water schemes and human resources to capacitate municipalities so as to attain the goals of providing water efficiently. Our regional offices are tirelessly engaged in such a programme. In Mpumalanga, for instance, our regional office is facilitating discussions with municipalities about the transfer of water works established through the BOTT programme.

It is in light of the above that municipalities will be in a better position to fulfil their mandate as prescribed by both the Water Services Act and relevant municipal legislation. I therefore wish to call upon municipalities to co-operate with the department in fulfilling this mandate. Partnerships with both the private and public sectors can further strengthen municipalities in the execution of their task of providing water. The Minister of Water Affairs and Forestry has issued guidelines for the regulation of such partnerships. These guidelines were drafted in accordance with the Water Services Act.

I would also like to congratulate the Minister for the excellent work he has done. The department will always be available through its regional offices to contribute meaningfully to the establishment of effective partnerships between municipalities and public institutions or the private sector. This role of the department became evident in the North West and KwaZulu-Natal recently.

The department provided legal and other technical assistance in the realisation of the public-public partnerships. Partnerships are necessary at this time of municipal transformation because they will contribute towards the attainment of effective and efficient delivery of water to our people. In this regard, mention has to be made of the uThukela Water Partnership in KwaZulu-Natal which my committee had an opportunity to view.

Municipalities must take advantage of such initiatives in order to ensure that they deliver to the people and remain on course. Innovative mechanisms need to be developed in order to buttress such a system, so that it does not fail at the end of the day.

In this year’s budget, the department continues with its commitment to address the backlog. Communities which were without water are prioritised by the municipalities and will receive supply accordingly. Such developments will happen in accordance with the provisions of the Division of Revenue Act. Our regional offices already have established forums, both at provincial and district levels, to ensure interaction with affected municipalities, so as to identify projects, prioritise and implement. In this manner, jobs will be created in those communities where projects are implemented. It is only the ANC that can make such a thing work. Kwa bokhutlong ke rata go raya maloko a a tlotlegang ke re, kgomo ga e ke e latlha boloko botlhe. Ka jalo ke le tshetlhana ya bolehwiliri, sebata se maseme mosimane wa molamu wa motlhware ke re a e we ka maroo e ritibetse e se nne makwakwapa kgalefong. Pula, bakgatlha! [Legofi.] [In conclusion, I would like to tell hon members that one never says all the words. Peace, bakgatlha! [Applause.]]

Mr S SIMMONS: Chairperson, hon Minister and members, firstly, I want to congratulate the hon the Minister for managing to obtain R255 million more for water services. In total, R1,03 billion rand will be available for water services, the planning and implementation of water service projects. This will go a long way towards addressing the backlogs in water provision and sanitation services.

Cognisance is taken of the approval by Cabinet for the building of the Skuifraam Dam in the Western Cape. I want to express, on behalf of the Western Cape community, our sincere appreciation and thanks to the Cabinet, the Minister and all role-players. This dam, after completion, will definitely deter a possible water crisis in the Western Cape.

However, the hon the Minister’s regional director is of the opinion that, at the province’s current rate of increase in consumption and assuming that winter rains are in line with the long-term average, the demand for water is expected to exceed existing supply within two years after coming into operation, ie between 2006 and 2008. If the regional director’s vision comes to fruition, the Western Cape will find itself in a similar position to the one in which it finds itself at present. It is therefore imperative that alternative sources of water should already be found and planned for now.

It is in view of water shortages being experienced periodically in the Wolseley-Tulbagh valley, due to weak seasonal rains, and the Minister’s regional director’s vision, that I request that a feasibility study be undertaken to consider the necessity to build a dam in Mitchells Pass, between Ceres and Wolseley, which has been identified as a suitable site. If found necessary, the water problems being experienced in the Wolseley- Tulbagh valley would be addressed if the dam is built. Such water can also be relayed to the West Coast, where water problems are being experienced. It could also augment water shortages in the Cape Metropole.

Daar bestaan sekere bekommernisse - en ek wil dit graag met agb lede deel - aangaande grondhervorming in die Wes-Kaap in die algemeen en in die Boland in die besonder. Die saak van watervoorsiening is, soos ook die toesien van landbouondersteuning en verskaffing van opleiding, deel van die proses om die agtergeblewe gemeenskap in die landbou te plaas en te bemagtig.

Die landbou, met effektiewe watervoorsiening daartoe, is nie alleen die belangrikste hulpbron vir broodnodige plaaslike ekonomiese ontwikkeling vir soveel van ons gemeenskap nie, maar is ook die liefde en strewe van soveel van ons streek se mense. Alles moontlik moet derhalwe gedoen word om die aantal geleenthede te vermeerder.

Daar is waardering vir die Minister se voorganger se visie om die vestiging van beginnerboere voorwaardelik te maak vir die bou van die groter Ceresdam, asook die subsidie van ongeveer R11 miljoen vir besproeiingswater. Ses agtergeblewe boerderyentiteite is gevestig en daar bestaan reeds ruim geleenthede vir uitbouing, wat benut behoort te word. Nie alleen moet die onbenutte bestaande infrastruktuur omskep word in geleenthede vir agtergeblewenes nie, maar moet ook onbenutte staatsgrond in die Wolseley-omgewing aangewend word om in die behoeftes van die vele ander belangstellendes te voorsien. Die plaaswerkers is positief en goed georganiseerd na aanleiding van wat deur die Departemente van Landbou en Grondsake, asook Waterwese daargestel is. Die kennis van praktiese ondervinding hier opgedoen, moet nou dringend opgevolg word met verdere projekte.

Uit hoofde van wat ek gemeld het, wil ek graag die volgende namens die vele agtergeblewenes, belangstellendes, plaaswerkers en dorpenaars oral oor die provinsie van die Minister verneem: Staatsgrond wat voorheen aan Safcol toegesê is, en nou deur die betrokke interdepartementele komitee as oortollig uitgewys is, moet vir produktiewe benutting aan die omliggende agtergeblewe gemeenskap van Wolseley en Tulbagh beskikbaar gestel word. Tweedens pleit ek vir groter koördineerding en ondersteuning deur alle betrokke staatsdepartemente in die vestiging van nuwe agtergeblewe toetredes tot die landbou. My waarneming is dat veral in die fase na grondverkryging, ruim area vir verbetering bestaan. By die Ceresprojek het die nuwe toetredende boere landbougrond bekom, maar ontbreek die nodige toerusting steeds om ‘n sukses van die projek te maak. ‘n Sentrum waar trekkers, ploeë en spuite deur alle nuwe boerderye gesamentlik bekom kan word, is ‘n dringende behoefte. So ook sukkel die beginnerboere … [Tyd verstreke.] [Applous.] (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)

[Certain concerns exist, and I would like to share them with you, regarding land reform in the Western Cape in general and in the Boland in particular. The issue of water provision is, as is the case with the provision of agricultural support and the provision of training, part of the process to place disadvantaged communities in agriculture and to empower them.

Agriculture, with effective water provision for that purpose, is not only the most important resource for essential local economical development for so many in our community, but is also the passion and aspiration of so many of our region’s people. Everything possible must therefore be done to increase the number of opportunities.

There is appreciation for the Minister’s predecessor’s vision to make the establishment of emerging farmers a precondition for the building of the greater Ceres Dam, as well as the subsidy of approximately R11 million for irrigation water. Six disadvantaged farming entities have been established and numerous opportunities for expansion already exist, which should be utilised. Not only must the unutilised existing infrastructure be transformed into opportunities for the disadvantaged, but unutilised state land in the Wolseley area must also be utilised to meet the needs of the many other interested parties. The farmworkers are positive and well organised, following what has been established by the Departments of Agriculture and Land Affairs, as well as Water Affairs. The knowledge of practical experience that has been acquired here must now urgently be followed up with further projects.

Arising from what I have mentioned, on behalf of the many disadvantaged, interested parties, farmworkers and town dwellers all over the province, I would like to enquire the following from the Minister: State land that had been previously promised to Safcol, and has now been identified as superfluous by the relevant interdepartmental committee, must be made available to the surrounding disadvantaged community of Wolseley and Tulbagh for productive utilisation. Secondly, I appeal for greater co- ordination and support by all relevant state departments in the establishment of new disadvantaged entrants to agriculture. My observation is that, in the phase of land acquisition in particular, there is significant room for improvement. In the Ceres project the new emerging farmers obtained agricultural land, but still lack the necessary equipment to make the project a success. A centre where tractors, ploughs and water hoses can be obtained communally by all new farms is an urgent need. In the same way the emerging farmers are struggling… [Time expired.] [Applause.]]

Mr M M MASALA: Mhlalingaphambili, phambi kokuba ndingene kwintetho yam, ndiyafuna ukuba khe ndigqithe apha kulo kaMcIntosh kunye naba abakhokelayo. Ngexesha la madoda ephethe apha ithuba elide kakhulu elingaphezulu kweminyaka engamashumi amane, awazange athethe ngokuthengiswa kwamashishini kaRhulumente. Namhlanje kuphethe ookafile, siyabona ukuba makuthengiswe amashishini kaRhulumente. Ndifuna ukumxelela okaMcIntosh kunye naba ahamba nabo ukuba siza kuhlala apha kwaye siza kulawula ithuba elide. Sakulawula isisu segazi. [Kuyaqhwatywa.] Ngelo xesha silawulayo asizi kuthatha ajenda yokuba masenze ntoni nini kubo. [Kuyaqhwatywa.] Siza kuhamba ngokwale ndlela sibona ukuba masihambe ngayo.

Ndithatha eli qonga namhlanje ndixhasa uhlahlo-lwabiwo-mali uVote 33 egameni likaGalelebhayini, i-ANC.

Xa ndisenza le ntetho namhlanje, ndihlonipha amaqabane amathathu, uqabane uRobert Mbanjwa, Vellem kunye noSoyela. Ngamaqabane la ongathi xa uthetha ngawo ngala majoni angaziwayo, nekungaculwayo ngawo kodwa enegalelo elinzulu emzabalazweni. Ngenxa yefuthe likaVukuzenzele, la majoni engajonganga kufumana mali, ajonge nje ukukhulula isizwe sakowethu kumakhamandela omvalo-bala. Kwiminyaka engamashumi amane adlulayo nge-16 kaDisemba ka-1961 asazisa, ndandilapho nam, isizwe nehlabathi ngokubanzi ukuba uzelwe umkhonto. Izaphuselane zaphukaneka nangoko zisithi i-ANC iyaphupha, umlungu mdala, icinga ukuba ingenza ntoni. Wavalela ijemu etotini. Siphi ngoku?

Amanzi angahlawulelwayo kumahlwempu asekhaya njengommiselo 1 kaRhulumente akabuyi ngamva. Ngamanzi silwa nobuhlwempu sijong’uphuhliso. Ziseninzi ke iingxaki ezisendleleni kodwa wona amanzi angahlawulelwanga aziilitha ezingamawaka amathandathu ngenyanga kuwo onke amakhaya ngakumbi ahlelelekileyo, ndifung’uGalelebhayini selefikile. Ndithetha nje izigidi ezingamashumi amabini anesithandathu, eziipesenti ezingama-66 zabantu beli sebewafumana amanzi angahlawulelwayo, kodwa masiyithethe inyaniso yokuba ngabantu basezidolophini aba apho imijelo yamanzi ifikelelayo ezindlwini.

Iindawo zethu kumaphondo ahluphekileyo afana neMpuma Koloni, KwaZulu-Natal, Mpumalanga neLimpopo imijelo ezisa iinkonzo ebantwini isasungulwa, kusenzima. Kaloku la maphondo zingxwelerha zobukrakra bengcinezelo nocalulo. Kwakungaziwa nokuba kukho abantu kweziya ndawo. Kwakusithiwa ngooKafile kuphela. Lo uRhulumente we-ANC uyayiguqula loo nto, uzisa iinkonzo ebantwini.

Ndikhumbula into yokuba kunjalo nje zikhona iilali ezisele ziwafumana la manzi. (Translation of Xhosa paragraphs follows.)

[Chairperson, before I begin with my speech, I would like to say a few words to Mr McIntosh and those whom he leads. During the time when these men ruled here, a period of more than forty years, they never said anything about privatisation. Today the black people are in power and they introduced privatisation. I would like to tell Mr McIntosh and his people that we are going to rule for a long time. It is going to be for a very long time. [Applause.] During the time that we are in power we are certainly not going to draw up our agenda according to their wishes and at a time set by them. [Applause.] We are going to do it the way we deem fit. I am standing on this podium today in support of Budget Vote 33 on behalf of the ANC.

As I am delivering my speech today I am honouring three comrades, Comrades Robert Mbanjwa, Vellem and Soyela. These are ``unknown’’ comrades; no songs are sung about them, but they contribute greatly to the struggle. These soldiers are not looking at making gains, but are prepared to work in the spirit of Vukuzenzele, and their goal is to liberate our country from the chains of apartheid. Forty years ago, it was in December of 1961, they told the whole country and the entire world that Umkhonto weSizwe had been born. Fools said that the ANC was dreaming, the white man was old, what did it think it could do. The white man put jam in a tin. Where are we now?

Free basic water to poor people in rural areas are in the Government policy and the process shall not turn back. With water we are fighting poverty and are looking at development. There are still obstacles in the way, but 6 000 litres of free basic water for all poor families are being provided, I swear by the ANC. As I speak, approximately

26 000 000 or about 66% of this country’s citizens get free water, but we should be honest about the fact that it is mainly people who live in towns where water pipes are already in place that are mostly accessing it.

In poor areas like the Eastern Cape, KwaZulu-Natal, Mpumalanga and Limpopo water pipes are still being connected, so there are still difficulties there. We should remember that these provinces were hit most by apartheid. It was taken that it was only blacks, and not people, who lived there. The ANC-led Government is changing all that and is bringing services to the people.

I know that there are rural areas that can access this water already.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! Hon members, cross-floor communication is not possible. We have to listen to the person who is at the podium.

Mr M M MASALA: Kwilali yaseMzinyathi ebesikhe sahambela kuyo sikwaZulu- Natal, sifumene amanzi amnandi kakhulu, amanzi asele efunyanwa ngumzi nomzi apho abantu qho ngentsasa befumana iilitha ezingamakhulu amabini. Le nto iyenzeka. Ndizama ukubonisa into yokuba nasezilalini selefikelela la manzi.

Intsebenziswano phakathi kwezintlu zikaRhulumente wesizwe, owamaphondo nowemimandla ifuneka ngamandla. Ndiyavuya ukwazisa ukuba selisekiwe iqela eliza kujongana nenkqubo yokwabiwa kwamanzi ankinkishelwa abantu simahla. Eli ke liqela eliza kuqinisekisa ukuba oomasipala bayancediswa ukuze bakwazi ukuzisa amanzi ankinkishelwa abantu simahla.

Ndinento endingayithandiyo kakhulu, le nto yokuvalelwa kwabantu amanzi. (Translation of Xhosa paragraphs follows.)

[In the village of uMzinyathi that we visited in KwaZulu-Natal, we found very nice water and all the homes there have access to it and are getting 200 litres a day. This is happening. I am trying to show that even in rural villages water is accessible.

Co-operation between the tiers of government that is, the national, provincial and local governments, is strongly needed. I am glad to announce that a task team has been appointed to look into the matter of providing free basic water. This task team is going to make sure that municipalities get support so that they could provide free basic water to people. There is something I do not like and that is cutting water.]

They are clearly an embarrassment and are counterproductive and unconstitutional. Communities must take these municipalities to court. It is the ANC-led Government’s policy to consult with all stakeholders on difficult matters. Are the communities properly informed and engaged on these matters? Is there a clear process of notification, warning and action? I would urge the department to develop a credit policy that would assist communities and Government on this issue. [Time expired.] [Applause.]

Muf T E LISHIVHA: Mudzulatshidulo, kha ndi thome ndi fhindule zwiṱuku zwe Vho-McIntosh vha amba zwone. Vho-McIntosh vha khou tou ofha u amba ngauri Tshivenḓa tshi ri: Muhulwane arali a wa, uri ndo ṱoḓa u wa. Arali u Muvhuso ro dzhia nahone na mvelaphanḓa vha khou i vhona. Vho McIntosh a huna zwine vha nga ri vhudza nga ha mbekanyamushumo ye vha itela vhathu na vhathu zwavho.

Ndi ḓo thoma nga u livhuwa Muhasho wa Maḓi na Vhusimamiri kha ndingedzo dzoṱhe dze vha ita uri tshumelo ya maḓi i ye kha vhathu, vhunga u muano wa ANC wa uri: Vhutshilo ha khwine kha vhathu vhoṱhe. (Translation of Venḓa paragraphs follows.)

[Miss T E LISHIVHA: Chairperson, I will start by answering a little bit of what Mr McIntosh said. Mr McIntosh is afraid of talking, because in Tshivenda we say: ``When an elderly person falls, he usually says that he nearly fell.’’ Mr McIntosh will never be able to indicate a single programme which he was responsible for to help poor people.

I will start by thanking the Department of Water Affairs and Forestry for their efforts to bring water to the people, because the ANC’s policy is: ``Better service to all the people’’.] The department has nine regional offices, one per province. The regional implementation plan provides services and functional support in order to ensure that the management of water resources is effective and efficient and promotes the maintenance of water infrastructure. It also provides direct support to local government initiatives to supply water and sanitation. The provincial allocations for the 2002-03 financial year total R1,215 146 300.

The regional implementation plan accounts for 68% of the budget of the Department of Water Affairs only. We also have allocations for business plans and project types.

Komiti ya maḓi yo ḓo dalela mavundu a tevhelaho: KwaZulu-Natal, Mpumalanga, Limpopo na shango la Swaziland, musi hu tshi vulwa tshikimu tsha damu ḽa Maguga, vhunga Afurika Tshipembe yo bvisa 60% ngeno Swaziland ya bvisa 40% kha u fhaṱwa ha damu iḽo.

Ro ḓo dalela zwikimu zwo fhambananaho. Huṅwe zwi khou tshimbila zwavhuḓi, ngeno huṅwe hu na vhuleme fhaḽa na fhaḽa, vhunga huṅwe hu tshi kha ḓi lugiswa mikano ya vho masipala. Ro ḓo dalela masipala wa tshiṱiriki tsha Capricon na Waterberg kha Vunḓu ḽa Limpopo. Ro ḓo wana uri hu kha ḓi vha na ṱhahalelo ya maḓi uri a swike kha vhathu nga vhunzhi. Fhedzi, hu na thandela ine ya vhidzwa u pfi ndi Glen Alpine, ine zwipiḓa zwivhili zwa thandela ṱhuku kana subproject, ya u thoma na ya vhuvhili zwo fhela, ho sala tshipiḓa tsha vhuraru tsha thandela ṱhuku uri hu ṱanganedziwe pulane ya bindu kana business plan yayo.

Hafha ha vha na maḓi manzhi, hu ḓo vha na mishumo i linganaho 1 000 u swika kha 2 000, ine ya ḓo bveledzwa nga mimaini. Hezwi ri tshi khou dalela mivhundu, ro ḓo wana hu na fhethu hune muhasho wa fanela u dzhenelela nga maanḓa, u fana na Hamulima, kha masipala wa Makhado. Ro ḓo wana uri huna thandela mbili dze dza thomiwa dza fhelela muyani, nga mulandu wa u sa vha na tshumisano vhukati ha muhasho, muvhuso wapo na vhadzulapo.

Henefho ndi hune Muvhuso wa fanela u ita zwauri tshifhinga tshoṱhe, musi hu tshi thomiwa thandela, hu vhe na tshumisano vhukati ha vhathu vhenevho vhararu. Vha so ngo ḓitika nga mazhendedzi kana dziconsultants, ngauri zwi sia ho vha na tshinyalelo nga mulandu wa u savha hone ha vhathu vha u lavhelesa. Zwenezwo zwi khou ri sumbedza zwauri, kha hu vhe na vhukonani ha vhuḓi vhukati ha muvhuso wapo, muhasho na vhadzulapo. Zwino ndi mushumo wa muhasho uri muthu onoyo a wanale uri hu dzudzanyiwe, nahone a fhedzise mushumo wawe - ndi amba hayo mazhendedzi. Kha hu vhe na komiti phanḓa ha musi thandela i tshi thoma, ine vhadzulapo, muhasho na muvhuso wapo, dza ḓo vha na vhaimeleli, ngauri ha sa vha na vhukonani kha zwiimiswa hezwi zwiraru, zwi a konḓa uri zwithu zwi tshimbile.

Ro ḓo dalela na masipala wa Thulamela, hune ha vha na thandela ine ya vha damuni la Ṋandoni na thandela ya ḓarata ya Tshikunḓu. Hafho ho sumbedza tshumisano ngauri, ro wana uri vhukati ha Dwaf, muvhuso wapo na vhadzulapo, hu na tshumisano, vha na vhaimeleli. Mivhundu i linganaho 20 na nnḓu dzi linganaho 400 dzo kwamea nga hetsho tshikimu, fhedzi vha ḓo fhaṱelwa nnḓu dzavho nga u liliswa. Ho itwa na komiti ya u ḓo shumana na u liliswa ha vhathu vho kwameaho. Ho ḓo tholiwa vhathu vha 386 vhane 193 ndi vhadzulapo. Thandela ya Xikunḓu yone, yo thola 295 vhane 251, ndi vhadzulapo. Kha muvhundu muṅwe na muṅwe, ho dzhiiwa vhafumakadzi vhavhili u ya u gudisiwa. Vha gudiselwa zwithu zwo fhambananaho sa u vha sabukonṱiraka, kheitharini na khampheini ya Aids. Hafha ndi hone hune mbekanyamushumo ya Batho Pele ya khou vhonala. (Translation of Venḓa paragraphs follows.)

[The water committee visited the following provinces: Kwazulu-Natal, Mpumalanga, Limpopo and the land of Swaziland to officially open the Maguga Dam Scheme. South Africa contributed 60% and Swaziland 40% to the building of that dam. We visited various schemes. Some of them are progressing well, whereas some have difficulties here and there, due to the fact that in some places they are still fixing the municipal border issues. We even visited the municipality of the Capricon and Waterberg districts in the Limpopo province. We realised that water was still not accessible to many but there is a project called Glen Alpine, of which the first two subprojects are finished. They are still waiting for the business plan for the third one.

If there is more water, about 1 000 to 2 000 jobs will be created in the mines. While we were visiting the villages, we noticed that there were places where the department had to intervene the most urgently, for example at Hamulima in the Makhado municipality. We found that two projects had been started and had disappeared into thin air because of a lack of co- operation between the department, local government and the community.

The Government must intervene at all times when a project is started. There must be co-operation between those three spheres. They must not depend on consultants, because at the end of the day, damage is the result of a lack of observers. This shows us that there should be good relations between the local government, the department and the community. It is the duty of the Government to make sure that if a person is found, then he or she should finish that job. By person, I mean the consultant. There should be a committee before the project is started, wherein the community, the department and the local government will have representation, because if there is not a good relationship among these three spheres, it will be difficult to make progress.

We visited the Thulamela municipality, where there is a project at the Nandoni Dam and a fence project in Tshikundu. There is a good relationship because there is co-operation between the Department of Water Affairs and Forestry, local government, the community and the representatives. About 20 villages and 400 houses have been affected by this scheme, but these houses are going to be rebuilt as compensation. About 386 people were hired, 193 of whom are residents. The Xikundu project employed 295 people, of whom 251 are residents. In each village, two women were taken for training. They were trained in various things, such as being subcontractors, caterers or Aids campaigners. That is where the Batho Pele programme is visible.]

As far as transfer of the schemes is concerned, the department has already transferred 34 schemes and 1 000 staff members and assets to local government, but the process is still ongoing, as we know that there are some municipalities which do not have the capacity. The department should hold workshops and provide training for councillors, managers and officials as municipalities are their responsibility. Project requirements for successful delivery and implementation should be determined through local authorities and community structures to ensure that they take ownership of the schemes and are able to look after them beyond the project.

When we come to service delivery in Botlokwa, Limpopo province, two boreholes have been provided and two have been refurbished at Makgato, while 40-kilolitre tanks were installed at Mahakane and 4-kilolitre tanks at Sefene. It must be noted that due to the cost of addressing the total backlog, not all the needs can be addressed immediately. People must know that 354 projects have been completed. [Time expired.] [Applause.]

Mr P H K DITSHETELO: Chairperson, hon Minister, the UCDP acknowledges the work done by the Department of Water Affairs and Forestry, particularly with regard to its attempt to ensure that our people are able to access clean running water, especially in the rural areas.

In the past years, more than 1 300 projects were initiated to provide ready access to clean water to more than 6,8 million people and sanitation to more than 100 000. However, we need to bring to the department’s attention that much still needs to be done, as there are still many who are exposed to diseases because of a lack of clean running water and proper sanitation in other parts of the country.

There are numerous cases of cholera being reported from time to time, especially in the rural areas. This affects mainly the poorest of the poor, as they are the ones who mainly use polluted water from the rivers to wash their clothes and also drink the same water. If we allow such practices to continue without taking any practical steps to better their lives, we will be violating their constitutional rights to access these basic needs. We also want to sensitise the department that despite the fact that our communities are supposed to have free access to certain quantities of water, this is not the case in certain areas. Some go without water because it is said they owe municipal rates and taxes or are in arrears.

The reality is that many South Africans live in informal settlements or squatter camps. In most cases their basic needs are not being catered for. In some townships around the country there are still communities that are using the bucket system as the main form of waste removal. It is also imperative to note that the restructuring of forestry should be handled with care, taking into account the needs of workers in this sector.

We have also noted that the industrial plantation trading account will cease to operate in 2002-03. The cost of managing state-owned property will be brought into the budget. We hope this will result in better control and management of state-owned assets.

In terms of expenditure trends within the department, it is heartwarming to know that the budget will grow by 7,6%. Of major concern is the fact that the investigation of the special allocation for poverty relief is still pending. [Time expired.]

Mrs R A NDZANGA: Chairperson, hon Minister and hon members, the hon McIntosh speaks about people today. Who are his people? During the past government and during the last hundred years, Mr McIntosh never cared about our people who did not have water. He never cared about our people. There were dams in our areas that supplied water to white areas only. They received better water and our people did not benefit from those dams. Since when [Interjections.]

Mrs B N SONO: [Inaudible.]

Mrs R A NDZANGA: You are people as well! You are black as well. You are just like me. Ke nkgono wa gago wena. [I am your grandmother.]

Mr McIntosh must stop talking about his people because he has no people. [Applause.] The ANC-led Government has been tested on many occasions and it has proved itself to be the best. This has happened on many occasions. Hence the department managed to win an international award for water delivery.

Great strides will continue to be made to redress past discrimination around water issues, and this task will need a core cadre corps that will display the important values and culture of the ANC. Such a corps must possess dedication to society and must in different ways enable the ANC to move faster in changing the lives of our people. [Interjections.]

Sanitation is dignity. It has a very important attachment. [Interjections.] To deal with sanitation requires the co-operation of a number of agencies, including the Government. The Consolidated Municipal Infrastructure Programme in the Department of Provincial and Local Government is in the process of eradicating the bucket system. [Interjections.] This collective approach allows the department to interact and through the interaction we will succeed. [Interjections.] The pace needs to be faster so that we may avoid waterborne diseases. The national task team for sanitation services should function so that we have an integrated approach to address sanitation. [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! Could the hon member take her seat for a moment. I need to address several issues. Firstly, let me address the gallery. Members who are visitors to Parliament are very welcome. This is a people’s Parliament. The Rules, however, preclude members who are in the gallery from participating in any way. They may not clap or participate in any way. They come here to listen to the debate and there are very good reasons why that rule obtains.

Now, let me address hon members in the House. The Rules permit hon members to respond to the person who is speaking. Hon members may heckle, it may be robust and the Chair will permit that, but the development now, where hon members are talking to one another across the Chamber, irrespective of the person who is speaking, is not showing respect to that person.

I would therefore, like to request hon members to honour the person who has been given the privilege and recognised by the Chair to address the House. If hon members wish to make comments … [Interjections.] I have just been saying that that is what should not be happening. It becomes impossible for the Chair to contain members who begin to become emotional on either side. Will hon members kindly confine what they want to say to what is being said by the speaker who is recognised and who has the podium. Hon member, you may proceed.

Mrs R A NDZANGA: Chairperson, in our election manifesto we promised our people a better life. Thanks to the political leadership of the ANC, our people today have water and electricity. We express thanks to the leadership of our committee and to Comrade Ronnie Kasrils and Buyelwa, our chairperson. [Applause.]

This commitment has been displayed at various levels of our ANC-led Government. It is the task of local government to discharge the basic services. Again, implementation is not just a matter for the Ministry and the Department of Water Affairs and Forestry; it is for all spheres of government.

The intervention of the ANC-led Government in the cholera outbreak in various provinces is a true testimony to the commitment of our Government and various departments.

We also express our sincere thanks to those departments who came to help fight the cholera outbreak. I would like to speak about an area we visited, Botlokwa in Limpopo, where we found that people were sick and had stomach troubles. Even the children in the school had the same trouble. In that area, the Minister provided for the church to be used as a hospital. The principal provided two classrooms to be used as a hospital so that people could be treated, because the outbreak had become an epidemic.

But what was strange was that the doctor who was treating those people claimed that there were no rivers in that area and that the water had been tested and found to be clean. What was also important was that all the people in the area offered to be volunteers, to carry people to these hospitals, to these classrooms and these churches. Nurses came out, doctors came out, soldiers and police came out - everybody was there in response to the call of our President for our people to volunteer, and thanks go to those people. [Applause.]

We need to accelerate delivery of the provision of sanitation. People that have been provided with water, infrastructure and sanitation have reached a new target of 49 000 over a period of 12 months. In this past financial year, approximately 280 people were given health and hygiene education.

I will now talk to hon members about delivery in the constituencies. In KwaZulu-Natal about 23 000 households have received sanitation; in the Eastern Cape, 718; in Mpumalanga, 364; in the North West, 8 700; in Limpopo, 10 000; and in the Free State, 1 000.

The theme of our debate is water delivery for poverty alleviation and development. The integrated approach … [Time expired.]

Mr D V BLOEM: Chairperson, I want to raise a point of concern. I see that there are only six members of the DP in the House.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE COMMITTEES: Order! Hon member, thank you for your concern, but the Rules do not make provision for you to express such concern. [Laughter.] I can only deal with points of order and, unfortunately, I can do nothing about your concern.

Mr E M SIGWELA: Mhlalingaphambili, bendiba ndiza kwenza ucweyo yiyo loo nto ndiphethe le nto, intonayo ndiyabona ukuba ixesha ngekhe livume nanjengoko sendibona ke nangoku ukuba seliphela. [Chairperson, I thought that I was going to conduct a workshop, that is why I brought this, but I can see that there will be no time, as it is almost over.]

A budget of R20,966 million has been estimated by the national Treasury for the subprogramme, Water Quality Services, which is what I am going to be speaking about under Programme 2: Water Resource Assessment. This subprogramme depends on the services of hydrologists and geohydrologists.

The difference is that hydrologists deal with surface water, whereas geohydrologists deal with underground water, as hon members can see on this map. That side of the House knows, because they had the facilities, they have had them all the time. [Laughter.] I am showing my comrades. I will not show them.

This helps us has to know the quality and quantity of underground water. Maybe we also need to inform ourselves about what is meant by water quality. In this instance, I will refer to the publication, Quality of Domestic Water Supplies, Volume one, Assessment guide, published by the Water Research Commission, the Department of Water Affairs and Forestry and the Department of Health. On page five it says that the term ``water quality’’ is used to describe the microbiological, physical and chemical properties of water that determine its fitness for use. Many of these properties are controlled or influenced by substances which are either dissolved or suspended in water.

The microbiological, physical and chemical properties are further elucidated as follows:

Microbiological quality refers to the presence of organisms that cannot be seen by the naked eye, such as protozoa, bacteria and viruses. Many of these microbes are associated with the transmission of infections and water-borne diseases, such as gastroenteritis and cholera.

This is so that we can understand where these diseases come from. ``Physical quality’’ refers to water quality properties that may be determined by physical methods, such as conductivity, HP, and turbidity measurement. The physical quality may affect the aesthetic quality, that is the taste, the odour or smell of water and the appearance of water. I am sure some of us who have been listening to the scientists of the Department of Water Affairs and Forestry have an idea about these things.

In the foreword of the same publication, which I have referred to, it is said that the World Heath Organisation, the WHO, rates poor water quality together with inadequate sanitation, which has been referred to here by my comrades, as the leading cause of death in poorer communities. This is why we must focus on those communities.

This observation by the WHO should indicate to us the seriousness of the matter we are now debating. I shuddered when I learnt from the same publication that some of the health effects of using water of an undesirable quality may not appear within a short time, but only after a number of years. I shudder because for several years until now, both in my village, Cala - this may address the hon members’s concern - and in the town of Ngcobo, where I also sometimes live, we have been drinking water which is definitely not clean and pure, even though it is piped water. There are installations, but the water is definitely not clean.

What facilitation, therefore, is there for the Department of Water Affairs and Forestry in order to be able to respond to the need to assure all the people of South Africa that they are being provided with water of an acceptable quality? If people read the Constitution, Chapter 2: Bill of Rights, Section 27 and the National Water Act: the preamble and Chapter 3, which provides for the control of the pollution of water, they will find some of the legal facilitation for the department to be able to deal with these circumstances.

I want to share what happened as I was writing this portion of my speech this morning at 7:30. What is happening in Mqanduli came over the news, broadcast on SABC2. The broadcast was about the increased deaths in Mqanduli, and it was said that the situation is even worse than that of KwaZulu-Natal, as a result of the use of polluted water from the Umtata River. I actually saw the water flowing and one could see that it was polluted. That made me look at the sales promotion pamphlet which quotes a UN report. I am not going to mention the title of that. I am not a salesman for the company. However, it does have a quotation from the UN report which says that every eight seconds a child dies from a water-related disease, 50% of people in developing countries suffer from one or more water-related diseases, and 80% of diseases in the developing world are caused by contaminated water.

Yes, I have already said that the department has provided for attending to this. The Minister in particular, as head of the department, must see to it that we are saved from death through impure water. I must say that I was pleased, though, after reading the multiyear strategic plan of the department, because it might be thought that the department is not attending to these things. When I read the multiyear strategic plan of the department, I found that it was vigorously attending to the concerns I have just raised.

I was worried that the resurgence of these undesirable events was happening in those areas that were left behind by apartheid development. It is a reflection of the legacy of apartheid that we have to deal with. Hence deaths occur in those areas. It is a fact from which we cannot run away. Those who are responsible for apartheid just have to admit that they made a mistake by that sinful - I do not want to use other words - racially biased development in the interests of white privilege and white health as if we were not all created by God, in the likeness of God. [Applause.]

Dr M S MOGOBA: Mr Chairman, water, like the air we breathe, is life. One of the tragedies of our country is that water was used as a tool of oppression. Water belongs to God. Like the light of the stars, the moon and the sun, it is meant to be shared by all God’s children.

The present Government has opened taps of water in many villages, an experience that must have been exhilarating and liberating. The only sadness is that many more villages, including my own, in Phokwane, are still in the queue. During our recent portfolio committee tour we came across many villages which faced a similar plight. Dams had been erected and teams of dedicated engineers and technicians are doing marvelous work, which reminds one of the drama of the creation of the earth. But again, sadly, many more dams await construction. Water in South Africa and the SADC region is a precious, in fact, strategic commodity. Why then does the Government not prioritise water in its budget so as to be able to wipe out all the outstanding backlogs in a year or two?

The Government has sharpened its focus on the provision of adequate sanitation in order to ensure that a healthy nation is brought about. Cholera is a real and imminent danger where sanitary toilets are unavailable. I want to pay tribute to the MECs for Health in KwaZulu-Natal, Limpopo and the Eastern Cape. In Mapreeland, Potgietersrus, cholera was contained and kept at bay. In Botlokwa the situation was worse, but timely intervention saved a community which would have been decimated.

Perhaps the most difficult task of Government is providing free water for the poorest of the poor. This is a difficult but necessary responsibility of a government in a developing country. There are unfortunately many people who hide behind the poor. A culture of paying for services must be inculcated. Without it, there can be no civilised services.

In conclusion, I want to quote from the White Paper of the Department of Water Affairs and Forestry. It says:

Water and sanitation services should be provided equitably, affordably, effectively, efficiently and sustainably.

This is the one and only recipe for a healthy nation. The PAC supports this Vote. [Applause.]

Ms P K MOTHOAGAE: Chairperson, hon Minister of Water Affairs and Forestry, hon members of this House, ladies and gentlemen, media representatives, it is an honour for me to participate in the debate on this Budget Vote this month, as we launch Letsema, which focuses on rural, urban and community development. I am going to concentrate on two issues, that is, transformation and the role of women in the water sector.

The 2000-01 annual report for the Department of Water Affairs and Forestry reflects the challenges facing the department. The statistics given in the report indicate that from 1996 to 2000 the pace of increasing black representation in the department was very slow. In 1996 it was 18%, and in 2000 it was 30%. The disabled represented 0%, males 93% in 1996 and 88% in

1. We live in a time when we are supposed to be implementing the policies that we passed since 1994 to date. This Government decided to take an integrated approach to development. We did not isolate anything.

Hon Simmons is correct in his approach that we need to empower our people. If one looks at our history, at the moment we are trying to address those challenging matters that need to be addressed now, such as the provision of water. It is our vision to start with early learning centres and include everything up to higher institutions of learning. That is why, when we talk of Curriculum 2000, when we talk of transformation, higher institutions of learning, we are trying to regress, to start from scratch, and continue as we change along the way.

We should therefore not isolate Water Affairs and take it as one department that has nothing to do with any contentions. We find that this House is empty, especially on my left, because water services may be for a particular area. I am not saying anything, because hon members are just going to listen, because they are going to get free education today. [Interjections.]

I think hon McIntosh has got his facts incorrect. He does not know the history of this country. He sat in this House, and passed legislation that was repressive. We are at the moment struggling to reverse that. Fortunately he is part of that, so he should please not regress, because he does not know what communism is. There was no communism, there was no SACP practising in South Africa before 1990. I do not know what he is talking about. [Interjections.]

There is another disturbing thing. I was surprised, when hon McIntosh came to the podium, hon Maluleke was saying fakamalahle''[promote progress]. I am not sure aboutfakamalahle’’ [promote progress], because the very person who is supposed to ``fakamalahle’’ [promote progress] is the one who has retarded our progress here. He came here to talk about privatisation, representing just the have-nots, forgetting the haves.

As for hon Sono, my sister, she seems to be lost. She is a member here representing an area, but she comes here, and asks us: Where? She is supposed to go to her constituency, sit with the council, and contact her regional manager. They will tell her where the water services programme is. The member should not come and howl here. This is not the platform to come and howl.

We are asking whether this budget addresses the needs. The member should please come to the meeting. Life is actually at the committee meeting, where the department came to brief us. We were asking the very questions that the member is asking here. I cannot respond at the moment. [Interjections.]

I am not sure of what is happening in that corner, but I think we are on course. We have received two awards to indicate that South Africa as an underdeveloped country is progressing. [Applause.] That is why hon McIntosh rushes to the Mail and Guardian and vents his frustration that we are progressing. There is nothing that they are contributing.

Batho ba rona kwa gae, ba tlhokomele maloko a ka go setse ngwaga fela pele re ya ditlhophong. Ba tlile go tla ka bese ya manobonobo ba le bontsha gore ba kgatlhanong le rona ka ntlha ya fa re tlisa diphetogo mo matshelong a batho kwa di tshwanetseng di nne teng. [Legofi.]

Re fetisitse melao fa. Molao o mongwe o o botlhokwa ke wa PFMA o o re bontshang gore lefapha le dira jang ka madi otlhe a re tla bong re dumelane ka ona gore a goroge kwa go lona. Go a bontsha gore bokoanyana bo sa ntse bo le teng. Ke a ikuela mo thapameng e gore … [Tsenoganong.]

LELOKO LE LE TLOTLEGANG: Bokoa, e seng bokoanyana. (Translation of Tswana paragraphs follows.)

[Our people should be careful of such people as we are left with few days before the elections. They will visit them in luxury buses, showing them that they are against us because we are improving the lives of our people. [Applause.]

Among the important laws that we have passed is the Public Finance Management Act, which guides us with regard to the efficient use of moneys allocated to departments. However, there are some weaknesses. I would like to appeal, this afternoon … [Interjections.]

An HON MEMBER: Not minor weakness, but great weakness!

Ms P K MOTHOAGAE: Can the hon member listen? May I be protected, Chairperson?

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! Yes, hon members, it is for the Chair to keep control here. Your assistance is appreciated but, unfortunately, it is not wanted.

Ms P K MOTHOAGAE: Thank you, Comrade Chairperson.

I was saying to hon Ronnie Kasrils that we think that there may be a problem as far as the question of underspending is concerned. If there is red tape, we need to address that.

Re mo nakong e ka yona re lebeletseng gore fa ngwaga o o ya bokhutlong re tla bo re na le khonferense ya boditshabatshaba e e lebeletseng diphetogo (WSSD). Ke dingwaga di le 10 fa e sa le banna le basadi ba ne ba kopane ba lebeletse tswelelopele ya ditlhabologo tsa rona. Lefapha le la rona le ya go nna le seabe se segolo thata gonne fa re bua ka ditlhabololo, ke sa ntse ke boela kwa morago, ke re ke tsela e e kopanetsweng. Mafapha otlhe a na le seabe jaaka re letse re bontshiwa ke lefapha la ga Tona Valli Moosa gore re tsamaya kae le gore re tshwanetse re dire eng.

Re na le bomme ba e leng gore mo nakong e e fetileng ba kgaratlhetse kgololosego mo nageng ya rona gore re be re le fa re leng teng. Bangwe ba bona ba sule fa ba bangwe re sa ntse re na le bona. Ke tsaya ntlha e ke tlhalosa ka dikgele tse e rileng ka beke ya metsi tsa abelwa bomme ba le

1. Bontsi ba bona ga bo yo fa, fela ba babedi ba teng. Mme Lydia Ngwenya le comrade Sonjica ke bangwe ba ba abetsweng dikgele tseo ka ba nnile le seabe se segolo, segolojang mme Lydia. Ke rata go bolelela mme Lydia gore ke mogaka, o balwa le boKofi Annan. A tshware thata. [Legofi.]

Bomme ba rona ba tswelelela pele go jela kwa tlase le fa re na le diporojeke tse e leng gore di fetola matshelo kwa ba leng teng. [Legofi.] (Translation of Tswana paragraphs follows.)

[We are eagerly looking forward to the World Summit on Sustainable Development. It has been 10 years since men and women met to discuss issues of national development. Our department will play a very important role in this summit. As I said earlier, it is a joint initiative. All the departments have roles to play, like Minister Valli Moosa’s department, which yesterday told us about the developments and what still needed to be done.

There are women who fought for the freedom of our country, thus placing us where we are today. Some of them have passed on, but we still have others with us today. I take this opportunity to talk about the awards which were given to 14 women during national Water Week. Most of them are not here, but there are two amongst us. Mrs Lydia Ngwenya and comrade Sonjica are among those who received the awards because of their important role. I would like to tell Ms Lydia Ngwenya that she is a legend, like Kofi Annan. She should keep it up! [Applause.]

Our women still struggle, even though there are projects that are aimed at improving their lives. [Applause.]] The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! Hon members, in every parliament of the world interjections are much preferred to heckling, and I would recommend to you that you try interjecting rather than heckling.

I call on the Minister of Water Affairs and Forestry. Hon Minister, I have not heard anyone saying ``Cheers’’ while lifting a glass yet. I wonder if you are going to be doing that.

The MINISTER OF WATER AFFAIRS AND FORESTRY: Chairperson, as Madiba often said: ``Cheers!’’ But I am going to wait for a whisky victory drink afterwards with my friend Graham McIntosh. Graham’s name is very apt. It was raining cats and dogs on him from all the hon members, and with a name like McIntosh, it was obviously water off a duck’s back, because he never really learns. I do enjoy his input. I will come to it in a moment, but I want to thank all hon members from all the parties for their very interesting inputs.

Let me start with the leader of the PAC, hon Mogoba. I was anticipating the approach. It seems I have been to his village, Phokoane, more recently than he has. Phokoane will have its water by February 2003. [Applause.] Already there are two reservoirs that have been built. Some of the pipes are 90% complete, and the pump station is being built. We are talking here not about one village. The leader of the PAC comes from an area that is 46 000 people strong. I do not know if they all vote for him though. But there are 46 000 people in 55 villages. We are getting there.

I have heard from the hon member, and from various others, hon Ditshetelo, Sibiya, Ndzanga, Sigwela and Mogoba, and we listened carefully. Obviously, if we had a magic wand we would lay on the water overnight, but with all the money in the world there is no way that we could provide the seven million still without, and the many millions without sanitation, in all the remote corners of this country, in seven of the nine provinces, in something like two or three years. I wonder what a ball the contractors would have. We have to have control over them. We have to monitor them.

I think to have reached everyone in this country in seven years’ time is an international record. That is why we won the global award. But we listen carefully. We try to assist our people in the meantime. I take account very seriously of what has been said and the suggestions made.

Of course, as hon members have pointed out, the question of the cholera outbreak is of great concern to us. We are now following up on KwaZulu- Natal. In Mqanduli in the Eastern Cape we also have this problem. I have been to Mqanduli during March, and the Minister of Health has been there on several occasions.

My department alone has allocated almost R9 million for emergency intervention, covering the many villages of the Mqanduli area. I must tell members that declaring a state of disaster is not going to help. We can do it. We are doing it. We are giving the people assistance, and what they need to know is that the cholera vibrio can be passed from hand to mouth between person and person. There is no cholera vibrio in the Umtata River. We have seen in KwaZulu-Natal how this infection can spread, and we are looking at this. We are monitoring it. I want to assure members that we are doing everything humanly possible.

The Wash programme, the sanitation activity and the hygiene education are vital, because, as an hon member pointed out, the educational aspect can really reduce the very awful level of fatality throughout the world. That is why we are pushing the Wash programme, water, sanitation and hygiene education. The simple act of washing one’s …

Mrs B N SONO: Mr Chairperson, on a point of order: Would the Minister take a question? [Interjections.]

The MINISTER: Chairperson, I cannot. I thank the member, she should come and see me afterwards. I will help her later. [Interjections.]

Mrs B M NTULI: Sit, bobbejaanspanner! [Sit down, monkey wrench!]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! Order! Let the Minister proceed.

The MINISTER: Chairperson, the Wash programme is but one element. Obviously the key thing is to bring sanitation and to bring clean water. [Interjections.] That is what this Government is doing.

Mrs B N SONO: Mr Chairperson, on a point of order: Hon Ntuli has just called me a ``bobbejaan’’. [Monkey] [Laughter.] [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! Hon Minister, would you please take your seat.

Which hon member?

Mrs B M SONO: Mr Chairperson, it is hon MmaNtuli.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITEES: Order! Hon member, MmaNtuli, did you use the words you are alleged to have used?

Mrs B M NTULI: Mr Chairperson, I did not say the hon member is a bobbejaanspanner''. I said there is a tool called abobbejaanspanner’’. [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! Hon member, we have been through this before. There is no way in which we can circumvent the underlying assumption, and I would like you to withdraw that.

Mrs B M NTULI: I did not refer to her as a ``bobbejaanspanner’’, Mr Chairperson. But for the sake of progress, I will withdraw it. [Applause.] [Laughter.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! Thank you, hon member. You may proceed, hon Minister.

The MINISTER OF WATER AFFAIRS AND FORESTRY: Mr Chairperson, I would ask my colleagues on this side of the House not to interrupt for it actually distracts my attention as well, by the way.

I would like to say, in relation to the sanitation issue, that the progress has been enormous. It is not just my department. I provided the figures in the National Council of Provinces yesterday. It is not just my department that got this going. We have improved sanitation in just one year to half a million of our people by the provision of 50 000 toilets that were constructed. Together with the Departments of Housing and of Local Government, this Government last year alone improved the sanitation of two and a half million people. So, at this rate we are delivering in a phenomenal way.

The hon chairperson has raised the issue of the relationships with other departments with regard to the Working for Water and sanitation programmes as an integrated Government initiative. This is done in a very big way. I would like to say, in relation to the Rooipoort Dam, we are looking at feasibilities. We will raise the Flag Boshielo Dam, which is going to assist. We are looking at the feasibility of Rooipoort Dam, but hon members should remember that the Olifants River is a tributary of the Limpopo River and that there is no way we can develop there without the consent of our neighbours.

I would like to say that hon McIntosh was very much mistaken when he said that we were not ratifying the protocols. The SADC protocol on shared watercourses has long been ratified and, certainly, whether it is Mozambique, or Swaziland - I have just had meetings in Swaziland earlier in the week, as I mentioned in my speech - Namibia, Lesotho, Botswana, or South Africa’s relation to the Orange River system, we have come to agreements and held meetings.

So, hon McIntosh should be mindful that in relation to this issue his facts are very far out, as his facts where when he took his leader to a place called Keats Drift in KwaZulu-Natal a couple of years ago, and he opened a disused water system from the homelands period and said: ``Look, they are not delivering! There is no water!’’ In actual fact, just along the Mooi River I had opened a scheme at Etembeni, which is bringing water to thousands of people in whom, as members of my side of the House have pointed out, his predecessors of several parties before had no interest whatsoever.

Let me come to the question of the water boards. They are there to ensure that local government has a public sector alternative to help them as a service provider in public-public partnerships. This Government will not consider the privatisation of water resource management organisations. This is a public trust that will be kept in public hands, even as we restructure to make things more efficient. [Applause.]

We do welcome the private sector, as we have seen in Dolphin, Nelspruit. The problems there are sometimes exaggerated, but the regulations are to ensure that where the private sector comes to the party the people’s interests remain uppermost in mind and that there are efficient services. That is the yardstick for the private sector and many other aspects. Let me say something about the Singisi rentals. They are there. The hon member McIntosh is concerned about what is happening. It is very well known that funds from the rentals go into a trust fund for the local communities, to be paid once all the beneficiaries are identified and there is agreement. So, the R9 million in rent that has come in is safe, I can assure him of that, and hopefully, before long, it will be in the pockets of the local communities who are definitely benefiting.

I think that the rude comment about Bushbuckridge has been dealt with. On the Umgeni finances, they are on track and the international activities are supportive. I saw this myself in Nigeria just last week, where there were Umgeni board members, including the chairperson, with me. I can assure the House that in developing their business and the business of this country with countries like Nigeria and Algeria, they are helping us enormously in political terms.

In my political work in Nigeria the chairperson of Umgeni and his team helped me considerably. So we should not resort to the cheap tactics of the press by throwing stones at every member of Government, or our utilities, who is now advantaged and was not before and is able to get on a plane and travel business class. They travel for this country to other countries and are doing tremendous work for us.

In relation to Dukuduku, I thank the hon member for raising that. I had not mentioned it in my speech. There is great progress in relation to Dukuduku. Three farms are already being converted. Housing is being built. Construction is well under way. Working for Water is helping to rehabilitate the Dukuduku forest, and the jobs are being given, over 350 of them, to the people who formerly lived in that forest. There is tremendous progress that is being made.

My time has run out. Let me just say …

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Hon Minister, I will give you 30 seconds.

The MINISTER: Thank you, Chairperson. About the Lesotho Highlands, the hon member McIntosh is exaggerating the question of siltation, which is under control. There is erosion in Lesotho, generally in the lowland areas, but the matter is regularly discussed in the joint commission. I want to thank the hon Simmons for his points on Skuifraam Dam and additional options. These certainly have to be taken into account.

The last point I would like to make to the citizens of the Western Cape is that we have discovered an enormous hidden treasure in the Western Cape, an aquifer which extends virtually from the Citrusdal area right across to close to Port Elizabeth. This is the Table Mountain aquifer chain, and it will be exploited. By the time we need more water by 2008, because Skuifraam is not going to be able to provide everything, we hopefully will be able to exploit this particular aquifer. Once again, thank you very much. Siyabonga kakhulu. Enkosi. [Applause.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! The hon Sonjica and the parliamentary officer wish me to inform the House that the hon the Minister of Water Affairs and Forestry was made Chief of Odido Council of Traditional Rulers, Rivers State, Nigeria, on 27 April 2002. [Applause.]

The title conferred on him is Amire miyene onono one'', meaningthe chief of good deeds of Odido’’ and follows on his close co-operation with his counterparts in Nigeria in developing the water resources of our countries and of Africa. We congratulate the hon the Minister. [Applause.]

Hon members will decide how, in future, to address the hon the Minister - as Minister or by his new title. [Interjections.]

Debate concluded.

The House adjourned at 11:52. ____

            ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS

ANNOUNCEMENTS:

National Assembly:

1. The Speaker:

   The following changes have been made to the membership of Portfolio Committees, viz:

   Correctional Services

   Appointed: Maseka, J T.

   Defence

   Appointed: Makanda, W G.

   Finance

   Appointed: Bekker, H J (Alt); Woods, G G. Foreign Affairs

   Appointed: Frolick, C T (Alt).

   Health

   Appointed: Nkabinde, N C.

   Public Works Appointed: Nkabinde, N C.

2. The Speaker:

 The following papers have been tabled and are now referred to the
 relevant committees as mentioned below:


 (1)    The following paper is referred to the Portfolio Committee on
     Correctional Services:


     The Strategic Plan of the Department of Correctional Services for
     2002-2005.


 (2)    The following papers are referred to the Portfolio Committee on
     Finance for consideration and report:


     (a)     Agreement between the Government of the Republic of South
          Africa and the Government of the Republic of the Seychelles
          for the Avoidance of Double Taxation and the Prevention of
          Fiscal Evasion with respect to Taxes on Income, tabled in
          terms of section 231(2) of the Constitution, 1996.


     (b)     Explanatory Memorandum on the Double Taxation Agreement
          between the Republic of South Africa and the Republic of the
          Seychelles.


 (3)    The following papers are referred to the Portfolio Committee on
     Finance:


     (a)     Proclamation No 17 published in Government Gazette No
          23169 dated 28 February 2002, Commencement of the Financial
          Intelligence Centre Act, 2001 (Act No 38 of 2001).


     (b)     Proclamation R.19 published in Government Gazette No 23169
          dated 1 March 2002, Fixing of date on which sections 37(1),
          38(1) and 48(1) shall come into operation, made in terms of
          the Revenue Laws Amendment Act, 2001 (Act No 19 of 2001).


     (c)     Government Notice No R.256 published in Government Gazette
          No 23196 dated 1 March 2002, Determination interest rate for
          purposes of paragraph (a) of the definition of "official rate
          of interest" in paragraph 1 of the Seventh Schedule, made in
          terms of the Income Tax Act, 1962 (Act No 58 of 1962).


     (d)     Proclamation Notice No 20 published in Government Gazette
          No 23207 dated 15 March 2002, Appointment of members of the
          Special Courts for the hearing of income tax appeals, made in
          terms of the Income Tax Act, 1962 (Act No 58 of 1962).


 (4)    The following papers are referred to the Portfolio Committee on
     Transport:


     (a)     Air Transport Agreement between the Government of the
          Republic of South Africa and the Government of the Republic of
          Germany, tabled in terms of section 231(3) of the
          Constitution, 1996.


     (b)     Bilateral Air Services Agreement between the Government of
          the Republic of South Africa and the Government of the Federal
          Republic of Brazil, tabled in terms of section 231(3) of the
          Constitution, 1996.


     (c)     Bilateral Air Services Agreement between the Government of
          the Republic of South Africa and the Government of the Federal
          Democratic Republic of Ethiopia, tabled in terms of section
          231(3) of the Constitution, 1996.


 (5)    The following paper is referred to the Portfolio Committee on
     Safety and Security:


     Strategic Plan of the Independent Complaints Directorate for 2002-
     2005.


 (6)    The following paper is referred to the Portfolio Committee on
     Labour, the Portfolio Committee on Housing and to the Portfolio
     Committee on Public Works. The Report of the Auditor-General is
     referred to the Standing Committee on Public Accounts for
     consideration and report:


     Annual Report and Financial Statements of the Construction
     Education and Training Authority for 2000-2001, including the
     Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements for 2000-
     2001 [RP 19-2002].
 (7)    The following papers are referred to the Portfolio Committee on
     Justice and Constitutional Development:


     (a)     Strategic Plan for the Department of Justice and
          Constitutional Development for 2002-2005.


     (b)     Annual Report of the Judicial Inspectorate on Prisons and
          Prisoners for 2001-2002 [RP 61-2002].


     (c)     Government Notice No R.37 published in Government Gazette
          No 23029 dated 18 January 2002, Magistrates Courts: Amendment
          of the Rules of Court, made in terms of section 6 of the Rules
          Board for Courts of Law Act, 1985 (Act No 107 of 1985).


     (d)     Government Notice No R.38 published in Government Gazette
          No 23029 dated 18 January 2002, Magistrates Courts: Amendment
          of the Rules of Court, made in terms of section 6 of the Rules
          Board for Courts of Law Act, 1985 (Act No 107 of 1985).


     (e)     Proclamation No R.9 published in Government Gazette No
          23119 dated 15 February 2002, Commencement of sections 10, 14,
          16 and 51, made in terms of the Promotion of Access to
          Information Act, 2000 (Act No 2 of 2000).


     (f)     Government Notice No R.187 published in Government Gazette
          No 23119 dated 15 February 2002, Regulations regarding the
          Promotion of Access to Information, made in terms of the
          Promotion of Access to Information Act, 2000 (Act No 2 of
          2000).


     (g)     Government Notice No 292 published in Government Gazette
          No 23176 dated 28 February 2002, Directives made in terms of
          section 7 of the Criminal Matters Amendment Act, 1998 (Act No
          68 of 1998).


     (h)     Proclamation No R.15 published in Government Gazette No
          23149 dated 15 February 2002, Commencement of the Criminal
          Matters Amendment Act, 1998 (Act No 68 of 1998).


     (i)     Government Notice No R.213 published in Government Gazette
          No 23149 dated 28 February 2002, Determination of remuneration
          payable to curator ad litem, made in terms of section 29 of
          the Mental Health Act, 1973 (Act No 18 of 1973).


     (j)     Government Notice No R.214 published in the Government
          Gazette No 23149 dated 28 February 2002, Regulations
          prescribing the tariff of allowances payable to psychiatrists
          who appear as witnesses in court, made in terms of the
          Criminal Procedure Act, 1977 (Act No 51 of 1977).


 (8)    The following papers are referred to the Portfolio Committee on
     Trade and Industry:


     (a)     Trade Agreement between the Government of the Republic of
          South Africa and the Government of the Republic of Bulgaria,
          tabled in terms of section 231(3) of the Constitution, 1996.


     (b)     Explanatory Memorandum to the Agreement.


     (c)     Trade and Economic Co-operation Agreement between the
          Government of the Republic of South Africa and the Government
          of the Republic of Belarus, tabled in terms of section 231(3)
          of the Constitution, 1996.


     (d)     Explanatory Memorandum to the Agreement. TABLINGS:

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces:

Papers:

1. The Minister of Home Affairs:

 Strategic Plan of the Department of Home Affairs for 2002-2005.

1. The Minister of Transport:

 Bilateral Air Services Agreement between the Government of the Republic
 of South Africa and the Government of the State of Qatar, tabled in
 terms of section 231(3) of the Constitution, 1996.

1. The Minister of Health:

 (a)    Government Notice No R.393 published in the Government Gazette
     No 23277 dated 5 April 2001, List of approved facilities where
     pharmacists can perform community service in 2003, made in terms
     of the Pharmacy Act, 1974 (Act No 53 of 1974).


 (b)    Government Notice No R.490 published in the Government Gazette
     No 23340 dated 26 April 2002, List of approved facilities where
     dentists can perform community service in 2003, made in terms of
     the Health Professions Act, 1974 (Act No 56 of 1974).


 (c)    Government Notice No R.491 published in the Government Gazette
     No 23340 dated 26 April 2002, List of approved facilities where
     medical practitioners can perform community service in 2003, made
     in terms of the Health Professions Act, 1974 (Act No 56 of 1974).


 (d)    Government Notice No R.492 published in Government Gazette No
     23340 dated 26 April 2002, Regulations relating to Microbiological
     standards for foodstuffs, made in terms of the Foodstuffs,
     Cosmetics and Disinfectants Act, 1972 (Act No 54 of 1972).


 (e)    Government Notice No R.493 published in Government Gazette No
     23340 dated 26 April 2002, Regulations relating to Labelling of
     foods for special medical purposes, made in terms of the
     Foodstuffs, Cosmetics and Disinfectants Act, 1972 (Act No 54 of
     1972).


 (f)    Government Notice No R.494 published in Government Gazette No
     23340 dated 26 April 2002, Regulations relating to Application of
     the Hazard Analysis and Critical Control Point System(HAACP
     System), made in terms of the Foodstuffs, Cosmetics and
     Disinfectants Act, 1972 (Act No 54 of 1972).


 (g)    Government Notice No R.540 published in Government Gazette No
     23379 dated 30 April 2002, Amendment to the General Regulations,
     made in terms of the Medical Schemes Act, 1998 (Act No 131 of
     1998).


 (h)    Government Notice No 399 published in Government Gazette No
     23282 dated 4 April 2002, Correction: replacing "Act" with "Bill",
     made in terms of the Health Donations Fund Repeal Bill, 2002.

National Assembly:

1. The Speaker:

 (1)    Half-yearly Report of the Public Protector for the period 1 July
     to 31 December 1996 (Report No 10).


 (2)    Report of the Public Protector for 1997 (Report No 14).


 (3)    Report of the Public Protector for 1998 (Report No 15).


 (4)    Report of the Public Protector for 1999 (Report No 16).


 (5)    Report and Financial Statements of the Public Protector for 2000-
     2001, including the Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial
     Statements for 2000-2001 (Report No 17).


 (6)    Written Explanation from the Acting Minister for Safety and
     Security, in terms of section 65(2)(a) of the Public Finance
     Management Act, 1999 (Act No 1 of 1999), explaining that the delay
     in the tabling of the Financial Statements of the Secret Services
     Account Account and the Report of the Auditor-General on the
     Financial Statements was as a result of a lengthy consultation
     process between the President, the Minister of Finance and the
     Minister for Safety and Security.


 (7)    Letter from the Minister of Arts, Culture, Science and
     Technology following on the Resolution of the House on 21 February
     2002:

COMMITTEE REPORTS:

National Assembly:

1. Report of the Standing Committee on Public Accounts on Study Tour to Ireland, Germany and UK, dated 13 March 2002:

 A.     Introduction


     A delegation from the Standing Committee on Public Accounts (the
     Committee) undertook a study visit to Ireland, Germany and the
     United Kingdom from 15 to 25 January 2002. The broad aim was to
     exchange ideas and experiences with the Committee's counterparts
     in all three countries on the role of public accounts committees,
     to observe how these committees conduct their business and to
     learn from them.


     Other bodies that the Committee met were the Auditors-General and
     Treasury officials, to find out about working relationships with
     the public accounts committees.


     The multi-party delegation consisted of:


     ANC


     1. Mr V G Smith, MP (Leader of the delegation)
     2. Mr L Chiba, MP
     3. Mr P A Gerber, MP
     4. Mr D M Gumede, MP
     5. Ms N L Hlangwana, MP
     6. Mr B W Kannemeyer, MP
     7. Mr N H Masithela, MP
     8. Ms P K Mothoagae, MP


     DP


     9. Mr N S Bruce, MP


     New NP


     10. Mr A Blaas, MP
     UDM


     11. Dr G W Koornhof, MP


     Committee Secretary


     12. Mr I K Dlamini


 B.     Ireland - findings


     1. Meeting with Mr A O'Callaghan, Partner: Price Waterhouse
          Coopers


          The delegation met with Mr O'Callaghan, a partner at Price
          Waterhouse Coopers and an expert in attracting foreign
          investment. He lectured the delegation on reasons that led to
          dramatic development in the Irish economy. He gave six
          reasons:


          *   Abandonment of protectionism


          *   Embracing foreign investment
          *   Investment in education


          *   Taking membership of the European Union


          *   Pursuing social partnership


          *   Enforcing fiscal rectitude


     2. Meeting with public accounts committee (PAC)


          (a) Nature and composition of committee


              The PAC is the Committee of the Dáil House. The committee
              is appointed to examine and report to the Dáil on:


              *    Accounts showing the appropriation of the sums
                granted by the Dáil to meet the public expenditure and
                such other accounts as they see fit which are audited
                by the Comptroller and Auditor-General (C&AG) and
                presented to the Dáil, together with any reports by the
                C&AG thereon.


              *    The C&AG's reports on his or her examination of
                economy, efficiency and effectiveness of evaluation
                systems, procedures and practices.


              *    Other reports of the C&AG.


              The committee has 12 members, six of whom are from the
              majority party and the rest from the smaller parties. The
              party representation in the committee reflects that of
              the House. The chairperson is traditionally elected from
              the opposition. Members of the PAC enjoy absolute
              privilege. The PAC has the power to investigate. However,
              it can recommend to the C&AG to investigate, but it is up
              to the C&AG to decide whether to do so or not. In most
              cases the C&AG honours the PAC's recommendations.
              Recently the PAC commissioned an investigation called the
              Deposit Income Retention Taxes (DIRT), which unearthed a
              lot of corruption in banks and which was very popular.


          (b) Work method


              Parliamentary standing orders require that, as much as
              practicable, committees should hold their meetings in
              public. However, the PAC holds meetings both in public
              and private sessions - it is up to the Committee to
              decide, based on the issues they are dealing with at a
              given time.


              The PAC normally meets on Tuesdays only, and meetings
              last approximately three hours. A work programme is
              prepared well in advance but may be changed as the need
              arises.


              If the PAC has decided to call a hearing, it first issues
              a preliminary notice to the witnesses, followed by a
              formal notice.


              Accounting officers are defined by law and are the ones
              who are called to appear before the PAC. In the case of
              government departments, Secretaries-General are in charge
              of implementing government policies and are therefore the
              ones who are regarded as accounting officers.
              Through the Compellability Act, 1997, the PAC can compel
              a witness to appear before it. Witnesses do not enjoy
              absolute privilege, but can be afforded qualified
              privilege. This Act also has "escape clauses", which
              preclude the PAC from delving into areas like the Secret
              Service.


              It is normally not difficult for the committee to reach
              consensus, because they do not question policy matters
              and parties cannot instruct their PAC members on what to
              do in PAC meetings.


          (c) Other matters discussed


              Members of the public who want to appear before the
              committee are required to make written submissions, and
              it is then up to the committee to decide whether to
              afford those individuals the opportunity. On the question
              of "prescription", the PAC can direct authorities to
              recover monies due to the State, but it does not have the
              power to recover monies itself.


          (d) Resources


              The PAC has four secretariat members - a committee clerk,
              an assistant and two secretaries. The committee has
              acquired new technology which assists in accomplishing
              its work easier.


          (e) Lessons learnt


              The PAC's membership does not change frequently. Some
              members have been with the committee for more than 10
              years. This is to preserve experience and continuity in
              the committee.
              The PAC's terms of reference preclude it from questioning
              matters that deal with policy. Therefore Ministers, as
              custodians of departments' policies, are not called to
              appear before the committee.


              Members of other committees are not allowed to
              participate in the proceedings of the PAC and are
              confined to the public gallery. The PAC does recommend
              that certain matters be referred to other committees.


              During the DIRT enquiry, each member of the PAC was
              allowed to appoint a research assistant, and the
              committee was also allowed, through change in
              legislation, to appoint a subcommittee for the first
              time.


     3. Meeting with Comptroller and Auditor-General (C&AG)


          (a) Nature of office


              The Constitution provides for the establishment of an
              independent office of the Comptroller and Auditor-
              General. The office normally conducts regularity,
              compliance and value-for-money audits. From time to time
              it publishes special and project reports. All C&AG's
              reports are presented to Parliament.


              The office is understaffed because currently there is a
              boom in the economy, which results in accountants being
              more in demand in the private sector. As a result of this
              shortage of staff, the office contracts out work to
              private firms, but they have to be certified by the C&AG.


          (b) Relationship between C&AG and PAC


              The reports of the C&AG form the basis for the PAC's
              enquiries; the committee considers about 40 reports.
              There is a close working relationship between the C&AG's
              office and the PAC, as well as between the C&AG and the
              PAC chairperson. The C&AG is a permanent witness in all
              meetings of the PAC. If he is absent, an official from
              his office attends. During a hearing, questions can be
              posed to him and he can request to comment if he feels
              that the accounting officer is not telling the whole
              truth.


              There is a liaison officer from the office who liaises
              with the PAC chairperson. One of his duties is to prepare
              the chairperson's brief before the hearing, highlighting
              important matters that should be covered. In preparing
              the brief, he sometimes liaises with the auditors who had
              conducted the audit of a department or public entity.
              Other members of the committee get the reports and it is
              up to them to read them and do their own preparations.


          (c) Lessons learnt


              Parliament nominates and recommends the C&AG for
              appointment, but it is the President who finally appoints
              him. The term of office of the C&AG is permanent until
              the retirement age of 65 years, and he can be removed
              from office by consensus of the two Houses of Parliament.
              Amongst other requirements, an accounting qualification
              is essential for this position.


              During PAC meetings, the C&AG sits next to the
              chairperson, and he is the one who introduces the subject
              at the beginning of hearings.


              The C&AG has set up an advisory group from various
              interested bodies, including the Institute of Chartered
              Accountants. This group helps to keep the office up to
              date with the latest developments in its field of
              operation.


              The office also audits local government authorities who
              administer central government funds, and it is normal
              practice for the PAC to call the accounting officers of
              these authorities to appear before it.


              The C&AG is an ex officio member of the Standards and
              Public Office Commission, where senior members of
              government and politicians declare their interests,
              gifts, etc.


              The committee clerk drafts committee reports and sends
              them to the C&AG's office to check whether all matters
              are covered.


     4. Meeting with officials of Department of Finance


          (a) Relationship between finance department, PAC and other
              departments


              The Minister of Finance replies to PAC recommendations
              through a "Minister's note". It is up to departments and
              entities to implement PAC recommendations, and they are
              not binding. The Department of Finance does not act as a
              supervisor to other departments, but only gives them
              information - it is up to them to use it. Therefore
              responsibility lies with departments themselves.


              Unauthorised expenditure does not occur because
              departments stick to programmes spelt out in
              appropriation accounts.


          (b) Expenditure control


              To exercise control on departmental spending, the finance
              department maintains ongoing communication with them.
              Departments are required to submit progress reports every
              month, which indicate whether efficient controls are in
              place.


              The finance department issues a statement every month on
              spending trends of departments; most of the time,
              departments supply reliable information. Every quarter
              the finance department holds a press conference to
              address questions based on these statements. If, at the
              end of a financial year, there is unspent money in a
              department's budget, it can negotiate with the finance
              department to have that money carried over to the
              following year.


          (c) Internal audit


              There is no legislation which stipulates that departments
              should have internal audit units. However, departments do
              have such units, although it is not clear whether all of
              them take this function seriously. Because of the risks
              that big departments face, they do take this function
              seriously.
              There have been developments in the area of internal
              auditing. Previously the function used to focus on
              transaction processing only, but now it covers business
              processes and risks as well.


              There is a lack of properly qualified auditors; the
              government has developed a one-year course, in the
              process of being accredited. Internal audit units report
              to line-function managers and ultimately to Secretaries-
              General.


          (d) Accrual accounting


              A new project, endeavouring to show inputs employed and
              outputs produced, as well as liabilities and assets, has
              been introduced. It tries to track all government
              resources up to their point of impact on the economy. The
              project is not fully understood or supported by all
              departments, and the finance department is urging all
              departments to follow it. Contributing to the problem is
              that there is no legislation which says that
              appropriations should be done in an accrual system.


          (e) Lessons learnt


              Accountability goes down to the third level, down from
              Secretary-General. This means that the committee can call
              to account departmental officials who are at principal
              officer level.


              The "Minister's note" for one department is sent to all
              other heads of departments. The reason for this practice
              is that the matter replied to may be transversal.
              There is no legislation which stipulates what could be
              done to accounting officers who have acted
              inappropriately. It is still in the process of being
              developed.


              There is also no legislation which stipulates that
              departments should establish internal audit units.


 C.     Germany


     The German system is in most instances different from the one
     which is followed in South Africa.  Therefore, for the purposes of
     this Report, all the topics covered are regarded as lessons which
     have been learnt by the delegation.


     1. Meeting with budget committee


          (a) Nature and composition of committee


              The budget committee is a committee of the Bundestag. It
              is principally responsible for the authorisation of
              budgeted funds. Each year it considers the draft federal
              budget for the coming year as well as any supplementary
              budgets or budgetary amendments submitted by the federal
              government.


              It has three subcommittees:


              *    Finance - deals with taxation and related matters


              *    Public Accounts - processes reports of the Federal
                Court of Audit


              *    Audit - deals with the budget and budget control


              All subcommittees meet separately and report to the whole
              committee. This means that the same group of people is
              responsible for both authorising and controlling the
              budget, thus ensuring a high degree of control
              effectiveness.


              The Committee has 42 members, and party representation is
              reflective of the House. There is no party which has an
              absolute majority.


              In terms of secretarial and research capacity, each
              member of Parliament is allowed to hire two to three
              assistants.


          (b) Public accounts subcommittee (PASC)


              The system of accounting by the government to the public
              accounts committee started in the 18th century. The
              subcommittee is considered a "knight without a sword",
              because it considers accounts after the effect. It has 17
              members who come from other portfolio committees, and
              meets about 15 times a year.


              The PASC has one rapporteur, whereas in other
              subcommittees each party has a rapporteur. Members
              serving in this subcommittee work independently and trust
              is placed in the rapporteur.


     2. Meeting with Federal Court of Audit (FCA)


          (a) Nature of office and relationship with budget committee


              The FCA is independent from the government. The President
              and Vice-President are proposed by the federal
              government, elected by the Bundestag and Bundesrat,
              respectively, and appointed by the federal President.
              They are appointed for one term of office of 12 years.
              Members of the FCA enjoy judicial independence similar to
              that enjoyed by the judiciary.


              The FCA has a total staff of about 700, of which 70 are
              members of the court and 450 are auditors. The President
              or Vice-President and at least one third of the members
              are required to be qualified lawyers.


              Within the federal administration, the FCA audits the
              accounts of departments and examines the management of
              the budget and the conduct of business in respect of
              economy and correctness.


              Other bodies that the FCA audits, are:


              *    All government agencies
              *    Federal government special funds


              *    Federal government enterprises


              *    Government participation in private law enterprises
                through direct or indirect holdings, giving
                consideration to commercial principles


              The criteria of FCA audits are the regularity, compliance
              and efficiency of administrative activity. The FCA issues
              special reports on matters of particular significance
              where it considers that Parliament and the federal
              government should be informed without delay.


              The FCA receives the provisional estimates of government
              departments and attends budget negotiations between the
              federal ministry of finance and government departments,
              and gives advice. It is also represented in the
              deliberations of the budget committee on government draft
              and at the preparatory rapporteur discussions.


              Normally, audit reports on departments is in the form of
              an annual report containing a summary of audits on all
              departments that goes before the PASC. The whole audit
              report on an individual department goes before the PASC
              only if it contains significant findings.


              The FCA is authorised to audit secret service agencies as
              well, and reports on these are considered by specific
              people within the PASC.


     3. Meeting with members of federal ministry of finances
          The Deputy Minister of Finance attends meetings of the budget
          committee and gives advice on the budget and audited accounts.


 D.     United Kingdom


     Basically the system in UK is more or less similar to the one
     followed in South Africa.


     1. Meeting with PAC and attendance of hearing


          (a) Nature and composition of committee


              The PAC is a committee of the House of Commons. It has 13
              members and party representation in the committee
              reflects that of the House. The chairperson is by
              convention elected from the opposition. This is taken
              seriously and seen as essential for a democratic state.


          (b) Work method


              The work programme is prepared well in advance and the
              C&AG's reports form the basis for the committee's
              enquiries. The PAC does not deal with policy matters, but
              focuses on efficiency, economy and value-for-money
              issues. Ministers are not held accountable by the
              committee. Permanent Secretaries are in charge of
              departments' administration, and they are held
              accountable by the PAC. If by the end of the hearing,
              there are areas in the report which have not been covered
              by the members, the chairperson raises them with the
              accounting officer before closing the meeting.


              The PAC has never voted - it reaches decisions by
              consensus. The fact that it does not deal with policy
              issues, helps in reaching decisions by consensus. The
              committee's recommendations are not binding to
              departments.


          (c) Resources


              The secretariat comprises of one committee clerk, two
              committee assistants and three secretaries.


          (d) Lessons learnt


              Some senior officials at the second level from that of
              the Permanent Secretary, who are in charge of big
              divisions within departments, are also held accountable
              by the PAC.


              Permanent Secretaries are permanent civil servants and
              Ministers may not change them as they want.


              Parliament allocates 60 000 Pounds to each member per
              year to hire support staff.


              Membership of the Committee does not change frequently,
              so as to maintain continuity. Members serving in the
              Committee are mostly senior members; one member has been
              with the committee since 1965.


              In doing committee work, members work individually and
              independently. During the hearings, each member is
              allocated 15 minutes to pose questions to witnesses.


              In future, the PAC will also call to hearings contractors
              contracted by government departments.
     2. Meeting with National Audit Office (NAO)


          (a) Nature of office


              The National Audit Office is independent of the
              government, and the C&AG is the head of the office. By
              virtue of his office, the C&AG is the Officer of the
              House of Commons. The office normally conducts
              regularity, propriety and value-for-money reports and
              produce about 40 reports a year on departmental financial
              statements and on value for money.


              There are about 750 staff members, split between the
              types of audits conducted by the office.


          (b) Relationship with PAC


              The C&AG and the chairperson of the PAC meet frequently
              to discuss various issues of common interest. Since the
              chairperson guides the committee from dwelling on policy
              matters during deliberations, it is during these meetings
              with the C&AG where they get to discuss matters,
              including policy, which may have a bearing on the
              committee's work.


              The C&AG or a representative from the office attends all
              PAC meetings. Before a hearing, the C&AG meets with the
              chairperson and gives him an indication of which
              questions would be important to raise with a particular
              witness. The C&AG also prepares a brief for the whole
              committee.


              PAC resolutions are prepared by the NAO, and are mainly
              based on what had transpired in hearings. The NAO assists
              in following up information requested by the PAC from
              departments. It also handles other information and
              correspondence for the chairperson and evaluates all
              replies, including Treasury Replies, from departments.


     3. Meeting with Her Majesty's Treasury (HMT) official


          (a) Working relationship between HMT and PAC


              There is a representative from HMT who attends all PAC
              hearings. After Parliament has passed PAC resolutions on
              C&AG reports, HMT co-ordinates replies to Parliament. If
              PAC recommendations in respect of a department are
              relevant to other departments, HMT informs them. HMT
              assesses departments' responses to check if all
              recommendations were responded to. Not all
              recommendations are accepted, but most are, and
              departments inform HMT if they are not going to implement
              PAC recommendations. The Minister of HMT would then
              report the reasons why it would be appropriate for a
              department not to implement such recommendations.


          (b) Performance reporting and control over departmental
              spending


              There are Public Service Agreements (PSAs), which are
              statements that set out the aims and objectives of each
              government department as well as performance targets,
              including measures of operations and outcomes. These
              statements are focused on outcomes and not inputs.
              Included in the PSAs is the statement of accountability
              issued by Ministers.


              Specialist spending and delivery teams from HMT assist
              departments in planning their delivery and on how to
              achieve targets.


              In monitoring and reporting on spending patterns of
              departments, HMT requires that departments submit monthly
              reports, indicating the stage they are at in achieving
              their targets. Information provided by departments is
              consolidated on a database and is presented to a Cabinet
              Committee every quarter.


              Every spring, departments issue to the public progress
              reports against targets. A review conducted by the
              government showed that these reports were failing. At
              present Parliament relies on these reports and HMT is
              currently developing a new reporting format whereby
              departments will report to Parliament. The first report
              in the new format will come out in April 2002.


          (c) Resource accounting and budgeting (RAB)


              The original timetable for implementing Resource
              Accounting and Budgeting (RAB) was set out in 1995, with
              the time for full implementation set for 2001-02. The
              system follows Generally Accepted Accounting Practice as
              far as possible.


              With the introduction of resource accounting, the
              Financial Reporting Advisory Board (FRAB) was set up in
              1996. Its purpose was to introduce an independent element
              to the process of setting financial reporting standards
              for government, and to help ensure that, as far as
              possible, departmental resource accounts are governed by
              generally accepted accounting practice, and that any
              departures from or modifications to it are fully
              explained.


              FRAB comprises representatives of interested bodies, and
              its terms of reference is to advise the Treasury on the
              application of financial reporting principles and
              standards in respect of the central government bodies for
              which the Treasury has responsibility as regards the
              issuing or approval of accounts directions.


              A manual called the Resource Accounting Manual (RAM) was
              developed; the first working version became available in
              1997. FRAB examined the manual after completion - it is
              in FRAB's terms of reference to keep it under review and
              to consider proposals for material change.


              The Treasury must ensure that all relevant matters are
              brought to the attention of the board and consider all
              advice received from the board.


              The board's remit has subsequently been extended to
              oversee accounting guidance in respect of executive non-
              departmental public bodies and trading funds, and also to
              the accounting policies underlying all government
              accounts.


              The RAM is underpinned by accounting standards issued by
              the Accounting Standards Board (ASB) for the private
              sector.
              The manual is updated due to changes in GAAP, issues
              arising in departments and reviews conducted on the
              functioning of the system. In updating the manual, a
              consultation procedure is followed which involves the HMT
              officials themselves, departments, the NAO and FRAB.


              According to the timetable, the rehearsal implementation
              phase of resource accounts was 1998-99. The first
              resource accounts were scheduled to be published and laid
              before Parliament in 1999-2000, and the first resource-
              based estimates were set for 2001-02.


              During the move to the new system the staff skills levels
              were low, and it was left to individual departments to
              develop staff according to their needs. Stock
              verification in big departments was a problem, and that
              was exacerbated by the fact that land and buildings are
              owned by individual departments. The financial accounting
              system is decentralised. The Treasury developed standard
              chartered accounts for departments to follow. Some
              departments use a similar system, whereas others prefer
              unique systems. It is also practice for departments to
              hire systems from one another.


          (d) Computer management information systems


              Departmental computer management information systems are
              decentralised and are stand-alones. HMT consolidates them
              and is at present trying to set standards to be followed
              by all departments.


              An Office on Government Commerce (OGC) has been set up to
              lead a wide-ranging programme to modernise procurement in
              government and deliver substantial value-for-money
              improvements. OGC also serves as a central computer
              agency for the State.


          (e) Financial management expertise in public sector


              There is a Government Accountancy Service (GAS), a body
              of accountants, trainees and accounting technicians
              employed and managed within central government
              departments and agencies in a variety of government
              accounting roles.


              The objectives of GAS are:


              *    To improve financial management
              *    To provide information


              *    To provide information on employment opportunities
                and developments in accountancy practice


              There is also the Development of Accountancy Resource
              Team (DART), whose aim is to help improve financial
              management in government through:


              *    Facilitating definition and dissemination of best
                practice in developing the skills necessary to achieve
                effective financial management


              *    Co-ordinating the framework of GAS


              *    Exchanging ideas, training manuals, etc, with other
                sectors in the UK and overseas


              The long-term aims of GAS and DART are:


              *    Promoting accountancy and accountants in government


              *    Broadening the use of specialist expertise


              *    Promoting and broadening general financial awareness
                in the overall decision-making process of government


              As part of developing staff skills in financial
              management, there is a government diploma which takes one
              year to achieve. Recruitment for staff is done at the
              workplace rather than outside, because studies revealed
              that people who are trained internally do not leave for
              other jobs.


              Trainees enter into an agreement with departments to
              serve two years after completion of the diploma. Only
              five per cent of those trained leave the government
              service upon completion of their training.


              A problem encountered, is that salary payment is devolved
              to individual departments, but some departments pay
              higher salaries than others for the same position.


          (f) Internal audit within departments and agencies


              There is a Central Internal Audit Training Team,
              established 20 years ago because of NAO's and the PAC's
              concerns about the state of internal audit functions in
              departments. There are 15 people serving on the team.


              The team sets standards for internal audit in government
              departments. When the project started, the team developed
              and produced a manual on internal auditing, which served
              as a guide for departments. In the 90s, the team mainly
              started picking themes, such as fraud and value-for-
              money, as areas for more focus.


              In order to develop skills for staff, the team liaised
              with universities and colleges and requested them to
              develop training programmes for the government and the
              private sector. That did not seem to be enough, because
              training was mostly attended by junior staff, and
              management did not attend.


              The team continues to run conferences and workshops. In
              the past, they used to conduct reviews on the usefulness
              of the internal audit function by visiting the
              departments and issuing reports thereafter. In the past
              three years it became necessary for accounting officers
              to be responsible for ensuring that their internal audit
              function was useful, and the team stopped conducting the
              reviews.


              Themes which have grown recently as areas of more focus,
              are corporate governance and risk management. Private
              companies are issuing statements, called the Turnbull
              Reports, on the way they do risk assessments. Accounting
              officers are going to be required to do these reports as
              well.


              The debate on whether internal audit units should report
              to accounting officers or not is also going on in the UK.
              There are no audit committees, but the matter of
              establishing them is being looked into.


 E.     Conclusion


     From the above, it is clear that generally there is a close
     working relationship between public accounts committees, Auditors-
     General and finance departments and that this relationship assists
     the public accounts committees, and thus Parliaments, to fulfil
     their role of oversight over public monies.


     What is also apparent, is that committees in these countries have
     better resources that enable members to do their work effectively
     and efficiently.


 F.     Appendix


     Documents received by delegation


     1. Ireland


          (a) Standing Orders relative to Public Business of Dáil
              Éireann


          (b) Comptroller and Auditor-General and Committees of the
              Houses of the Oireachtas (Special Provisions) Act, 1998


          (c) Committees of the Houses of the Oireachtas
              (Compellability, Privileges and Immunities of Witnesses)
              Act, 1997


          (d) Comptroller and Auditor-General Amendment Act, 1993
          (e) Comptroller and Auditor-General's Report (Value for Money)
              on Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform on
              Purchasing of Tyres by the Garda Síochána


          (f) Public Service Amendment Act, 1997


          (g) Compact Disc on Parliamentary Inquiry (Public Accounts
              Committee) into DIRT


          (h) Statement of Strategy (2001-03) of the Department of
              Finance


          (i) A guide on Internal Audit Standards by Department of
              Finance


          (j) Budget for 2002


          (k) A guide to Irish Parliament


     2. Germany


          (a) Guide on the Budget System of the Federal Republic of
              Germany


          (b) Guide on Federal German Budget Legislation


          (c) Overview of the process of government accounting


          (d) Overview of Federal Ministry of Finance as part of
              Accounting and Control


          (e) Handbook on the Supreme Audit Institution of the Federal
              Republic of Germany, and its Regional Audit Offices


          (f) Compact Disc: Bundeshaushalt 2001: Finanzplan des Bundes
              2000 bis 2004


     3. United Kingdom


          (a) A range by HM Treasury called Managing Resources:


              - Analysing resource accounts: user's guide
              - Analysing resource accounts: an introduction
              - What Senior Civil Servants need to know
              - How the Resource Accounting and Budgeting project was
                managed
              - Full implementation of Resource Accounting and
                Budgeting
              - Better decision-making in departments
              - Maximising benefits for departments
              - A strategic approach to finance training
              - Case Studies
              - Summary


          (b) HM Treasury's Guides on:


              - The Responsibilities of an Accounting Officer (RAB-
                related version)
              - Public Accounts Committee and National Auditing Office
              - Financial and Accountancy Competencies Framework
              - Outcome-focused Management in the United Kingdom


          (c) Review of the Government Accountancy Service


          (d) Report of the Financial Reporting Advisory Board to the
              Treasury


          (e) Handbook on Regularity and Propriety


          (f) HM Treasury's Spending Review 2000:
              - New Public Spending Plans 2001-2004
              - Public Service Agreements 2001-2004
              - Service Delivery Agreements 2001-2004: a guide
              - Departmental Investment Strategies: a Summary