THURSDAY, 9 MAY 2002 __

          PROCEEDINGS OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
                                ____

The Council met at 14:04.

The Deputy Chairperson took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayers or meditation.

ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS - see col 000.

                          NOTICES OF MOTION

Mr A E VAN NIEKERK: Chairperson, I give notice that I shall move at the next sitting of the Council:

That the Council notes that -

(1) on 8 May, Mr A E van Niekerk was involved in an accident in the rural area on the main road to Paarl, when he could not prevent hitting a woman crossing the road in the dark;

(2) he stood there trying to comfort her in her pain with a group of at least 15 co-workers, who all had to cross the same road under the same circumstances and who were merely lucky not to have been run over by other cars;

(3) Mr Van Niekerk and his colleagues in the New NP are convinced that the fact that most people who die on our roads are pedestrians cannot be tolerated or accepted, that additional action must be taken and that an investigation must be conducted into the possibility of -

   (a)  a  private  member's  legislative  proposal  to  strengthen  the
       present legislation on this issue;


   (b)  approaching organised agriculture to involve employers  next  to
       main roads to issue employees with fluorescent bands as part  of
       their protective clothing and to look into transport  facilities
       to cross these roads in the dark where bridges do not exist; and


   (c)  investigating the present situation on pedestrian crossings  and
       possible expansions of these facilities;

(4) Mr Van Niekerk has expressed his gratitude and that of his party to Supervisor Titus and Inspector Mpiti of the Traffic Department for the professional way in which they cared for the injured woman and the way in which they assisted him; and

(5) Mr Van Niekerk also wants to thank the hon Dr Phillip Nel, who stopped at the scene and in his dress suit examined the woman and comforted her as much as he could …

Mr M E SURTY: Chairperson, the comments in relation to safety and the role of pedestrians as a contributing factor to deaths on our roads is certainly significant, but to go on about the detail of who has helped the hon member and why he helped him and the circumstances certainly do not form part of the basis of a notice of motion. I just want to caution the member about that in future.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr M L Mushwana): Order! But there is no basis on which you can disallow that notice of motion. I agree with you that there may be some petty things, but unfortunately the Rules do not allow you to stop the giving of notice of a motion.

Mr M E SURTY: May I with respect then state that that is not a motion but a statement by the member, Chairperson?

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr M L Mushwana): Order! No, it will be notice of a motion, because there is nothing like that in our Rules. You can deal with that in the Whippery. I agree with what you are saying, but unfortunately this is notice of a motion.

Mrs J N VILAKAZI: Chairperson, I give notice that at the next sitting of the Council I shall move:

That the Council -

(1) believes that the enlightened education of our children in the basic facts of human biology and sexuality is essential for an informed, responsible and humane society;

(2) further believes that such education in our public schools has a special urgency in the context of the Aids epidemic; and

(3) therefore calls on the Minister of Education to encourage sex education in our schools.

                            ASCENSION DAY

                         (Draft Resolution)

Mr K D S DURR: Chairperson, I move on behalf of the ACDP:

That the Council -

(1) notes that today is Ascension Day and that it is the day according to the Christian faith, belief and tradition that is celebrated and recognised by most denominations as the day that the Lord Jesus Christ ascended to heaven; and

(2) takes note of this day as Christians throughout the world go about observing their faith and wishes them well.

Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.

                 AIDS CARE UNIT AT CONRADIE HOSPITAL

                         (Draft Resolution)

Mrs J N VILAKAZI: Chairperson, I move without notice:

That the Council -

(1) applauds the installation of an Aids Care Unit at Conradie Hospital in a joint venture with St Luke’s Hospital in the Western Cape;

(2) notes that certain parts of Conradie Hospital have been transformed into a care unit for Aids patients;

(3) appreciates that the facility will offer comfort and specialised care to Aids patients in the final stages of the disease;

(4) notes with appreciation that funding of this facility is provided by the Government and that medical, pharmaceutical and logistical support is provided by Conradie Hospital; and

(5) applauds such a move as a true example of dedication, vision, courage and integrity and as part of the many-pronged effort to control the HIV epidemic in this province.

Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.

ACHIEVEMENTS OF VAN NIEKERK CHILDREN IN INTERNATIONAL KARATE KICKBOXING TOURNAMENTS

                         (Draft Resolution)

Dr P J C NEL: Mnr die Voorsitter, ek stel voor sonder kennisgewing:

Dat die Raad -

(1) kennis neem -

   (a)  dat twee van die agb lid mnr Adriaan  van  Niekerk  se  kinders,
       Sjan-Mari en Iaan van Niekerk, op 4 Mei 2002 in New York aan  'n
       internasionale ope karate-skopbokstoernooi deelgeneem het;


   (b)  dat Sjan-mari een brons en een goue medalje verower het, en  dat
       Iaan een goue, een silwer en een brons medalje verower het; en

(2) hulle van harte gelukwens met hierdie skitterende prestasie;

(3) verder kennis neem dat hierdie twee jong mense op 11 Mei 2002 in Orlando, Florida, aan die wêreldkampioenskaptoernooi in karate- skopboks sal deelneem; en

(4) hulle baie sterkte toewens en die hoop uitspreek dat hulle weer eens Suid-Afrika se naam hoog sal hou in hierdie besondere sportsoort. (Translation of Afrikaans motion without notice follows.)

[Dr P J C NEL: Chairperson, I move without notice:

That the Council -

(1) notes that -

   (a)  on 4 May 2002, two of the hon member Mr  Adriaan  van  Niekerk's
       children, Sjan-Mari and Iaan van Niekerk,  participated  in  the
       International Open Karate Kickboxing Tournament in New York; and


   (b)  Sjan-Mari won one gold and one bronze medal  and  Iaan  won  one
       gold, one silver and one bronze medal;

(2) congratulates them on these excellent achievements;

(3) further notes that on 11 May 2002 these two young people will be participating in the karate kickboxing world championship tournament in Orlando, Florida; and

(4) wishes them lots of success and expresses the hope that they will once again hold South Africa’s name high in this particular code of sport.] Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.

DETERIORATING SITUATION IN THE MIDDLE EAST AND EFFORTS TO FIND A LASTING PEACEFUL SOLUTION

                         (Draft Resolution)

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE COUNCIL: Chairperson, I rise to debate a matter of great importance to this country in the context of the commitment of all South Africans, of all religious persuasions and of all colours to commit themselves to ensuring that there is peace and stability on our continent and in other parts of the world. Chairperson, you may note from the title …

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr M L Mushwana): Order! Chief Whip, you must move your motion first, as printed on the Order Paper.

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE COUNCIL: Thank you, Chairperson. That was just a preamble to the motion itself. I move the draft resolution printed in my name on the Order Paper, as follows:

(1) the rapidly deteriorating situation in the Middle East, occasioned by Israeli state aggression against the state and people of Palestine, including the killing and maiming of civilians;

(2) the occupation of Palestinian land and territory by the Israeli government;

(3) the violation by the Israeli government of UN Human Rights treaties and the Geneva Convention and protocols on the treatment of civilians and prisoners of war;

(4) the efforts of the Arab states, the United Nations, the UN Security Council and several other governments, including the Government of South Africa, to finding a lasting peaceful solution in the Middle East;

(5) the refusal of the Israeli government to permit UN observers to investigate the events in Jenin; and

(6) the progress in regard to resolving an impasse in the Church of Nativity in Bethlehem.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr M L Mushwana): Order! Are all the provinces in agreement with this motion?

Ms C BOTHA: Chairperson, on a point of order, is it possible to amend this motion before we proceed with the vote by provinces?

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr M L Mushwana): Which province is that, hon member?

Ms C BOTHA: Chairperson, I am asking as a member of this House, having been presented with the motion for the first …

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr M L Mushwana): Order! Could you ask your province to move such a request, hon member? It is a provincial matter. If you ask your province to suggest an amendment, then the Chief Whip, as the mover of the motion, will give an indication as to whether or not he accepts the proposal.

Ms C BOTHA: Thank you, Chairperson. May I then read out the proposed amendment which I would like our province to move?

Mr M V MOOSA: Chairperson, on a point of order, your ruling has been very clear. In terms of the Rules it is not possible for the individual member to make an amendment to a motion where a provincial vote is required. That member should have put this to her delegation and the delegation head could have stood up and made an amendment. They have not done that, and this House must not be asked to listen to that.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr M L Mushwana): Order! Could we follow the Rules? In terms of our Rules and our practices, only a province regarding this type of matter can vote or propose an amendment. I have suggested that the member put the proposal to her own province and then her province can move an amendment.

In the absence of any province moving or making any suggestion or any objection, I will take it that all provinces are in agreement with the motion and that the motion is agreed to in terms of section 65 of the Constitution. We shall now proceed to deal with the subject for discussion.

Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.

Ms C BOTHA: Chairperson, I wish to raise a point of order: We were given from Tuesday until today to make our changes to the proposed motion. The Whip would come back to us as a party in connection with this motion. This is not …

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr M L Mushwana): Hon member, I have made a ruling on this matter and we cannot deliberate on it. We now proceed to deal with the subject for discussion as printed on the Order Paper.

PALESTINE: A STRUGGLE FOR SELF-DETERMINATION, FREEDOM, HUMAN DIGNITY AND PEACE

                      (Subject for Discussion)

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE COUNCIL: Chairperson, may I just correct a somewhat unintended, I think, misrepresentation of the situation? The basis of the discussion amongst the Whippery was that a resolution would be adopted after this debate. That document was circulated and there was communication between the DP and the ANC on the basis that if we did not accept the proposals, then such a resolution would not be put to the House, and that would be the case. It did not deal with the motion that is on the Order Paper. I would like to rectify the situation and say that, certainly, the remarks of the hon Ms Botha are not consistent with the facts. Mr Lever is invited to confirm or differ from me in this regard. I see he is here. Chairperson, you may notice that the title of the subject of our discussion is ``Palestine: A struggle for self-determination, freedom, human dignity and peace’’. Now, fundamental and central to our Constitution are the founding values that underpin our Constitution, those of human dignity, freedom and equality.

The basis of this debate here should be seen in the context of a people or a nation whose dignity is suppressed, who are restricted in terms of movement, in terms of access, in terms of opportunity within the territory which they rightfully should call their own. This is the context and the background in which we should debate this matter.

At the same time, there should be unequivocal commitment to peace, to a spirit in terms of which we commit ourselves, universally, to achieve peace by getting the parties together in order to find a solution, which is in the best interests of the people of Palestine and the people of Israel.

The deteriorating situation in the Middle East prompted many people in South Africa to adopt a programme of mass action in solidarity and support of the besieged Palestinian people. There was participation in this programme by people from the working class, and by people from different religious denominations and political persuasions. It is a programme that commenced not very long ago, which took place in the various provinces of our country. The commitment to peace and the solidarity with the people of Palestine was quite universal in the context of the demonstrations that occurred countrywide.

South Africans began their campaign for support with interfaith prayers for peace, and with services, rallies and marches in our provinces. We call on all South Africans to join the people of Africa and the world in campaigning for a peaceful resolution to the crisis in the Middle East after the further occupation of Palestinian land and territory by the Israeli government and the increased Israeli state aggression against the people of Palestine. We condemned, as a nation, in the strongest possible terms the violence perpetrated by the Israeli occupation forces, which includes extrajudicial killings; the wanton destruction of infrastructure; the compulsion of people to live under very restrictive conditions, including curfews; and a refusal by the Israeli military force to allow people access to health care, food and water under very difficult circumstances. We condemned all attacks on civilians, both Israeli and Palestinian, including attacks by suicide bombers. We call for a cessation of hostilities to end the attacks from all sides.

I do not think anybody in this House should get up and say that suicide bombings are justified, that the loss of life of Israeli people, as a result of suicide bombings, is correct. Yet, at the same time, we must ponder and reflect, as the president of the United States did two days ago, when he said that what we are dealing with in the Middle East calls for a different approach, a total reform in the social, economic and political conditions that face the people of Palestine. Unless we address the social and economic conditions, people will not in desperation and out of a loss of dignity commit acts in which they use their limbs and their lives in order to commit atrocities such as suicide bombings.

That is the context which we must understand. So whilst we condemn then, we must be conscious of the fact that there are conditions which give rise to this kind of desperation, which we condemn as a nation.

The actions of the Israeli government constitute a grave threat to peace and security everywhere in this world. As Martin Luther King once said: ``Injustice anywhere in the world is a threat to justice everywhere.’’ This action, in the context of the continued denial to the Palestinian people of the right to national self-determination, is an affront to the dignity of humanity.

Dignity is a condition such that even where the oppressor oppresses the oppressed, the oppressor shares something with the oppressed, and that is dignity. By liberating the oppressed, the oppressor himself or herself is freed. This is really the context in which we see Israelis occupying Palestine. As in South Africa, when the oppressors liberated the black masses in this country here, they too were liberated; by affirming the dignity of those who were racially oppressed they too affirmed their dignity as human beings. It is this universal connotation and quality that we would like to reaffirm in this debate, be it the dignity of the Israelis or the dignity of the Palestinians.

We call on the government of Israel, under the circumstances, to immediately and unconditionally implement United Nations Security Council Resolutions 1402 and 1403 and to accept that President Arafat is the legitimate representative of the people of Palestine as an indispensable factor in the peace process. We cannot, as Mr Durr has suggested, say that there will not be unity in Zimbabwe if there is a Mugabe. Similarly, we cannot say that unless Arafat is off of the scene, there cannot be peace negotiations in Israel.

The United States, in particular, should use its influence to promote the implementation of the UN Security Council resolutions in the peace plan adopted by the Arab states at their recent meeting in Lebanon. The United States has a very important and critical role to play. This year alone, more than $2,1 billion was given in military aid to Israel, and we believe these are conditions or resources that are being abused by the Israelis to perpetrate aggression on innocent, and in most cases, unarmed Palestinian victims.

South Africans from all sectors of society have come out in support of the struggle of the people of Palestine and of peace in the Middle East. All peace-loving and democratically minded South Africans, regardless of race or religion, should take this uncompromising stance on peace in the Middle East. We should prohibit the use of military weapons against the defenceless and unarmed civilian population.

South Africa have first-hand experience of this. As a people, we know of the pain and trauma of massive loss of life due to political conflict. We know what it is each day to bury people who are involved in continuing conflict. We know that as a nation the best solution is for the contending parties to get around the table to find a solution.

It is important that the United Nations delegation be allowed a access to Jenin to investigate and determine the nature and extent of the deaths of civilians and the destruction of infrastructure caused by the military incursions of the Israeli army. We are aware of the visual material, which has been circulated throughout the world in the print media and on television, of the massive destruction that has taken place. We are aware of conflicting reports by the Israeli military force as to the number of people who were killed. And, certainly, to prohibit such an investigation from taking place would not be in the interests of justice and in the interests of peace. We can never wish that anybody should be prevented from investigating a situation, in which, ostensibly, there is gross injustice and a gross violation of human rights. Every day we pray for peace for both the Palestinians and the Israelis, and, together, that prayer should be for the nation, for the people and for the contending parties in Israel and Palestine. However, the reality that we see on television and virtually every day is one of death. We see a little child carrying a stone and trying to fling it at a tank. This is disproportionate; a little child showing a spirit of resistance to this occupation. That clearly depicts the reality that we see in Israel.

It is important that the Israeli government now seriously considers efforts in order to arrive at a peaceful negotiation, and that it does not dictate the terms under which it would want to negotiate with the contending parties to the dispute. We sincerely support the establishment of the independent state of Palestine and we also support, at the same time, the independence of the state of Israel with secure borders, as has been proposed by the Saudi government and as has been supported by the Arab states at their meeting that was held in Lebanon. We take this position because we believe that in as much as the people of Israel are entitled to their self-determination, so too are the people of Palestine entitled to their self-determination and peaceful coexistence.

With this in mind, we propose that we support the initiative by the Saudi crown prince in terms of the decision that has been taken, and that we support all efforts in finding a specific resolution to the problem. We do believe that the starting point would really be compliance with the United Nations resolutions. These have been disregarded and discarded with impunity by Israel. Unless and until they recognise the authority, the validity and their undertaking to international law, then there is no chance of peace in sight. We do believe, however, that the various countries, the various democracies, should get together and really seek a peaceful solution to the Middle East, otherwise it could rip the country apart and create instability throughout the world. [Applause.]

Ms C BOTHA: Chairperson, there is much in what the hon member has said with which I am in agreement. I think it would probably surprise him …

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr M L Mushwana): Sorry, hon member, can you put on both your microphones so that the sound can be better.

Ms C BOTHA: Thank you, Chair. I was remarking that much of what the hon member has just said the DA is in complete agreement with. I think if we tended to listen carefully to each other, we would be surprised that there are many issues on which we do not differ at all.

I am nevertheless grateful for the opportunity to articulate our approach in the DA to the Middle East conflict. Our party support cuts across the religious divides. Amongst our members are many ardent Christians, Muslims and Jews. All have an emotional and historical attachment to that ancient land. We also have, as hon members know, a variety of faiths represented in our leadership structures.

This reality informs our approach to policy, but it does not form it. Our position is premised on considerations which are as defensible within the party as outside. It speaks with one voice to Gentile, Jew and Muslim alike.

However, I am mildly bemused by the selection of this forum to hold such an emotive debate on an international question, dedicated as the National Council of Provinces is to bringing a provincial perspective to national issues. Yet the same House has neglected to debate Angola, Swaziland, the Sudan, the DRC and many more African issues which have considerably more of an immediate impact on South Africans than the relatively remote Middle East - ek is nie klaar nie [I have not finished yet] - where our leverage, if it exists at all, is negligible. [Interjections.]

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE COUNCIL: Chairperson, on a point of order: I must raise this point here. I said previously that I attributed good faith to the hon member when she made a misleading statement. This debate here takes place on the basis of an agreement by all political parties, including the political party from which the hon member comes. And, again, the Whip Mr Lawrence Lever is here and would confirm that the title of this debate, the date of this debate and time of this debate were mutually agreed upon. To suggest now that this debate has been manipulated or planned in such a way that it does not take into account the views of other political parties, is an utter misrepresentation of the fact. [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr M L Mushwana) Order! Order! Ms Kgoali, order! The fact that we as parties agreed to follow a particular procedure cannot preclude a member from freedom of speech. I do not see how I will stop the hon member from speaking. I agree with you, Chief Whip, that that is the case, but can that stop a member from expressing her view in a House in which freedom of expression is allowed? That is the difficulty which I have. I do not deny that as the Whip you took that position, but can that in itself stop a member from expressing her view?

Hon member, please continue.

Ms C BOTHA: Chairperson, I was hoping that the hon Chief Whip would listen as carefully to my speech as I did to his; then he would remember that I said right at the outset that I am grateful for the opportunity to articulate our approach.

Our President has repeatedly called for African solutions to African questions, and quiet diplomacy when dealing with our neighbours. Yet on the Middle East we seem intent on voluble insistence, even by our Cabinet Ministers in their public and private capacities, on importing into the South African body politic and into our community life, the very political divisions that have caused such tragedy in Israel and Palestine. The Middle East conflict has much broader implications than the unuttered rationale, perhaps for this particular debate, which frequently yet simplistically posits that what needs to be overcome in the Middle East is merely the Israeli version of apartheid.

Only a truly balanced approach, devoid of political self-interest, will lend any credence or contribute positively to the role South Africa may play on the Middle Eastern stage. For the DA the crux of a lasting solution is this … [Interjections.] There is a DA, on whose behalf I can speak. [Interjections.] As a member of the DP, speaking also on behalf of the DA, the crux of a lasting solution is this: the mutual recognition of the rights of Palestinians and Israelis each to have sovereign, independent and secure states. To the DA and the DP this is fundamental.

We believe that resolution of the present Middle Eastern conflict is possible. Despite the years of the historical divide, the cruelty, injustice, lost lives, lost opportunities and children forever silenced - the enduring image of Mohammed Al-Dura comes to mind, overlaid with the latest suicide bombing of young Israelis playing an innocent game of snooker - despite these seemingly endless additions to layers of accumulated injustice, we believe the future can be secured.

For negotiations to take place, Israelis and Palestinians must both have an absolute commitment to peace and the negotiating process in order to reach an agreement acceptable to both. After centuries of conflict, years of negotiation, now tied up in several momentous international agreements, the successful unravelling of the ancient Gordian knot along the Jordan River is in sight. But for negotiations to succeed, the desire for peace must surpass the lure of ideology or of transitory gains.

The DA is committed to the core issues of security for Israel and statehood and human rights for Palestine. We completely underwrite the Palestinian desire for statehood and human rights, and we accept Israel’s real, legitimate and rational concern over security. In addition, we consider it vital that the countries of the region must enter into an accord, both individually and collectively, which honours the agreement the Palestinians and the Israelis have reached about their future, and will reach. This is what makes the Saudi Arabian initiative, which calls on the recognition of the territorial integrity and security of both Israel and the proposed state of Palestine by countries other than the protagonists, cardinal to the success of any solution.

We agree with Deputy Minister Pahad in his speech to the South African Zionist Conference earlier this year, in which he said:

The prerequisite for a prosperous state of Israel, living within defined and secure borders, and in peace with its neighbours, is an independent Palestinian state committed to its own peace and prosperity, side by side with its neighbour Israel.

We also support a negotiated solution, we support implementation of the Mitchell Plan recommendations, we reject terrorism, we condemn the use of excessive force, the blockading of the Palestinian authority … [Time expired.]

Mr K D S DURR: Chairman, we have contemplated this motion before the House and subjected it to the test of what it can do for South Africa and how it conforms to our international obligations. We were elected by our people to serve their best interests, to coin a phrase, ``to achieve a better life for all’’. We need to be careful that positions we take abroad do not backfire on us and create divisions in our society which otherwise do not exist, and frustrate our attempts to develop our own people and our own region.

We are a country with a limited ability to project itself and to influence others effectively far beyond Southern Africa. Zimbabwe is an example of that. We need to work within the international community, like the UN. If we are honest with ourselves, the great contribution we have made in conflict resolution was in the field of reconciliation and democratic government at home. This more than anything edified our nation and gave us influence.

What was achieved here was achieved by South Africans working together for peace, with the minimum of outside interference. It was accompanied by a suspension of violence and strong reconciliatory statements and actions by its leaders and endorsed by elections and referenda. Our achievements, and hence our strongest card, have been reconciliation, democracy and constitutional government based upon the rule of law.

Few of these conditions apply in the Middle East at this time. The players in the Middle East have internationalised their problems and look to others for solutions. Our ability to influence the situation in the Middle East, though limited, is dependent upon the parties to the conflict respecting our views and seeing our role, if any, as impartial, objective and based upon the facts of the situation.

Our credibility and influence only carry weight and can only be effectively brought to bear if we are seen to be impartial and if we were to be invited by the parties concerned to play a role. To maintain our credibility, we need to refrain from making partial judgments and using emotive language. Is the motion before the House impartial? Clearly not. It goes much further even than UN Resolutions 1402 and 1403. This resolution is not even in line with the position of most of our developed industrialised democracies, whose help we require to develop our country and our continent, or of our main trading partners.

Israel is a friendly nation in good standing with us. She has huge power, influence and potential to assist in Africa in a variety of ways. She can also be a deadly enemy. Israel has the right to live in peace within recognised, sustainable frontiers, whilst not being subjected to terrorist attacks, and has the right to self-defence. I am glad that the hon Chief Whip of the ANC confirmed that. Does this motion recognise that? The answer is no. My party therefore opposes the motion before the House.

They talk of consultation. I was never consulted on this motion. A draft of the motion was dropped on my desk by Mr Sulliman. I took one look at line 1 of the resolution and I said that I opposed it. Never was I consulted by the Chief Whip of my provincial delegation, and I do not consider myself bound by the provincial delegation on this matter. Where is the provincial content in this motion? This should be dealt with as a section 75 measure; it is a national measure. [Interjections.]

Were I able to move an amendment, which I am not, I would have moved an amendment to the effect that this Council urges all parties to the Middle Eastern conflict to cease hostilities and to seek reconciliation and a negotiated peace that respects the rights of all in the region, and that the Council affirms South Africa’s willingness to help with this process in an impartial way, if called upon to do so. We wish all the people of the Middle East peace and goodwill. [Applause.]

Ms B THOMSON: Chair, hon Minister and hon members, not so long ago the world was faced with one of the worst forms of abuse of human rights when numbers of innocent people, unarmed civilians and young children lost their lives. It was a moment when one could actually question whether the value of human life had any meaning at all. I am talking about the genocide in Rwanda. The whole world was shocked at the revelations that came from that incident. That was an incident in our history never to be forgotten or repeated, but, disappointedly so, it seems that this is recurring, slowly re-emerging in a different format in a different society.

Today we are once again faced by another incident where one actually wonders where our civilisations are going to, and what the world is coming to. Today the world is faced with yet another situation in which the value of human lives and respect for human rights are questionable, if not undermined.

We are talking about the situation in Palestine. The Israeli occupation of Palestine is undermining the human rights of the Palestinian people. The occupation is an act perpetrated against defenceless civilians, unarmed men, women and children - an act for which no grievance or cause can ever be justification. It is an act that must be condemned. It is indeed a direct attack on humanity. It is an attack on our very own core beliefs in human rights: in equality, in freedom and in self-determination.

As a nation we have been there. We struggled for our own liberation, our own freedom and self-determination. Therefore, who better can understand what the Palestinians are going through, but us and others who have suffered similar situations? Our history has placed us in a position to understand the wrongfulness of oppression, intimidation and marginalisation.

Our history as a nation has placed us in a position to understand the desperation of the Palestinian people. It has placed us in a position in which we can understand why young women and men are prepared to sacrifice their lives. While we can understand this, our history has also taught us that violence can never bring a lasting solution. Our experience has demonstrated that peace can be achieved through dialogue and negotiations.

We, as a nation, therefore, have an obligation to bring this awareness to the consciousness of the new emerging global morality, a renaissance in the hearts and minds of people for a better world where peace, respect for human rights and justice prevail. The Israeli occupation of Palestine has resulted in the death of hundreds of Palestinians and some Israeli people. Many of those who died were young men and children.

The Israeli government’s total disregard for international human rights law has resulted in extreme discrimination against Palestinians. It has resulted in severe restrictions on labour, employment and freedom of movement, as well as punishment for those whose views challenge social convention. This list of human rights abuses is endless.

Noting the escalation of violence in Palestine and Israel, and in acknowledgement of a need for the international community to better understand the conflict, a multiparty delegation of members of our Parliament was sent to embark on a fact-finding mission to Palestine and Israel last year.

The document they compiled confirmed what has been known for a long time by people who closely follow the situation in the Middle East, and who have been concerned about the human rights abuses caused by Israeli aggression in that region. The findings included denial of health care, which resulted in the continued ill health of the people caused by deliberate and targeted environmental degradation; the psychological trauma; and the physical trauma and fear experienced by the children as a result of sustained violence, harassment, humiliation, intimidation and instability. We are talking about children who had to witness the killings of family members, friends and neighbours.

The incarceration of the Palestinian leader clearly aggravated the crisis. It was a direct attack on the heart and soul of the Palestinian people.

These are some of the findings, but not all. According to the report these actions seem to be directed at all facets of Palestinian existence, and seem to represent a total onslaught against Palestinian people. These are clear, concise and direct examples of the disdain with which the Palestinian people are being treated. They are indeed gruesome acts of the gravest forms of abuse of the human rights of the Palestinian people, which have to be condemned.

An end to these miseries has to be addressed vigorously in order to embark on a path of peace, instead of violence. Violence, as we have witnessed in our own history, has never been a solution, but instead a source of anarchy. This is an appeal for the sake of mankind, and for the sake of a better world where humanity rises to eliminate subjugation of the weak.

To conclude, I wish to call on all political parties to condemn the abuses of the human rights of the Palestinian people and to support a peaceful solution where reason prevails, and for both the Palestinians and Israelis to take a leaf from the lessons of our history. They should not allow the mistakes of the past to determine their actions, but they should focus on the prospects of a peaceful future through negotiations and dialogue. [Applause.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr M L Mushwana): Order! If the hon member had bothered to look up she would have seen that it was not Madam Chair sitting here. [Laughter.]

Mr M J BHENGU: Chairperson, my neighbour behind me is disturbing me, and I would like to have your protection. [Interjections.]

The IFP has considered the issue of the Palestine-Israel conflict. It is a conflict which is very complicated. We find it very difficult to say who is wrong and who is right, but the most important thing for us is to seek peace in the Middle East. The fundamental truth in the Middle East question goes deeper than the general public knows. As a result, it is not going to stop tomorrow, but it will continue for centuries to come. The tragedy in that process is the loss of human life.

One question that one always asks is: What is it that propels the Palestinians to fight for their cause in such a unique manner, by, for instance, using suicidal bomb attacks? What is it that moves them to use that kind of action? On the other hand, we hear that the Palestinians are labelled as terrorists. Then one asks the question: What is a terrorist?

However, the prudent approach right now would be to support the call made by Chairman Arafat to his Palestinian militia to stop forthwith the suicidal bomb attacks on Israel. But at the same time the state of Israel needs to react with restraint where Palestinian civilians are concerned. The suicidal bomb attack on Israel yesterday claimed the lives of more than 15 people. That was indeed tragic.

The historical and peaceful resolution of the Middle East question, in our view, needs a multilateral approach, which would include the superpowers of the world, for instance the USA, Britain, Russia, France, and then, of course, Palestine, the Arab states, and why not South Africa, so that they can sit down and negotiate, rather than having one superpower involved in that kind of a conflict. They can then begin to develop a way forward, which will establish lasting peace.

It is imperative that the Oslo accord of 1993 should be revisited and repursued by the the superpowers. This accord, among other things, advocated the resolution of the whole situation in the Middle East within a climate of peaceful co-existence of the two countries. It also suggested the division of Jerusalem as a capital. The prudence of such an action is debatable, but, all in all, the Oslo accord advocates peaceful co- existence.

We believe the the Saudi peace plan also has to be revisited, because, among other things, it advocated the development of lasting peace in Israel, wherein Palestine and Israel would be equally recognised as independent states, rather than one being subservient to the other. [Time expired.]

Dr E A CONROY: Agb Voorsitter en kollegas, elke saak het gewoonlik twee kante en dit word selde gevind dat een van die twee strydende partye in ‘n konflik heeltemal skuldig en die teenparty heeltemal onskuldig is.

Feit van die saak is dat dít wat vandag in die Midde-Ooste aan die gebeur is, sy oorsprong reeds eeue gelede het toe die nasate van Ismail aan die een kant, en dié van Isak aan die ander kant, mekaar nie kon vind nie en die familietwis van tyd tot tyd op bloedige botsings uitgeloop het. Daarom sal die probleem nie weggaan as buitestaanders eenvoudig een van die partye as die skuldige uitwys en veroordeel nie.

Dit is daarom soveel meer te waardeer dat daar groeperinge is wat, hoewel nie direk en fisiek by die konflik betrokke nie, maar tog as gevolg van eeue-oue bloed- en familiebande hulself emosioneel as deel van die uitgerekte stryd beskou, die morele moed het om hierdie saak op ‘n totaal onpartydige wyse te benader en met ‘n aanvaarbare oplossing vorendag te kom. Ek verwys hier na die voorstelle van kroonprins Abdullah van Saoedi-Arabië, wat nou ook amptelik die voorstel van die Arab League geword het. Ons is van mening dat dié voorstelle die basis vir verdere onderhandelings moet wees, wat in die eerste plek alle Arabiese state, Irak en Sirië ingesluit, inbind tot erkenning van Israel se bestaansreg en, in die tweede plek, dit as ‘n quid pro quo stel dat Israel onttrek uit alle gebiede wat ná 1967 beset is.

Die Nuwe NP verskil egter op een belangrike punt met dié plan, naamlik dat, indien dit aanvaar word, die Palestyne nie kan aandring op die sogenaamde ``right of return’’ nie. Israel se reg op ‘n eie Joodse staat ooreenkomstig Prins Abdullah se voorstelle sal nooit ‘n werklikheid kan word as die vlugtelinge die reg het om terug te keer nie.

Ons standpunt is dat geweld nie ‘n oplossing vir die Midde-Oosterse probleem is nie. Ons glo verder dat samesprekings so spoedig moontlik hervat moet word en, om dit te verseker, dat ‘n internasionale arbiter moet toesien dat die Mitchellverslag wat deur beide mnre Arafat en Sharon aanvaar is, onmiddellik in werking gestel word. In dié verslag word onder meer voorgestel dat alle geweld gestaak word, dat die Palestyne alle terreurdade met swaar strawwe aan die oortreders aan bande lê, dat Israel die uitbreiding van alle vestigingsgebiede staak en dat die sluiting van toegangsroetes tot die Palestynse gebiede opgehef word.

Ons het deurgaans gesê dat as Suid-Afrika ‘n rol in die oplossing wil speel

• en beide partye het reeds by meer as een geleentheid aangedui dat hulle graag ons ervaring in dié opsig sal wil deel - ons rol die van ‘n onpartydige buitestaander moet wees en ons moet dus nie emosioneel daarby betrokke raak nie. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)

[Dr E A CONROY: Hon Chairperson and colleagues, every issue usually has two sides and one seldom finds that one of the two warring parties in a conflict is entirely guilty and the other party entirely innocent.

The fact of the matter is that that which is happening in the Middle East today already had its origins centuries ago when the descendants of Ishmael on the one hand, and those of Isaac on the other, could not find one another and the family feud resulted in bloody clashes from time to time. Therefore the problem will not go away if outsiders simply identify and judge one of the parties as being guilty.

It is therefore to be appreciated even more that there are groupings which, although they are not directly and physically involved in the conflict, still consider themselves emotionally part of the drawn-out battle as a result of centuries-old blood and family ties, and have the moral courage to approach this matter in a totally impartial manner and come up with an acceptable solution.

Here I am referring to the proposals by Crown Prince Abdullah from Saudi Arabia, which have now officially become the proposal of the Arab League. We are of the opinion that these proposals should be the basis for further negotiations, which in the first place bind all Arabic states, including Iraq and Syria, to the recognition of Israel’s right to existence and, in the second place, state as a quid pro quo that Israel withdraw from all areas occupied after 1967.

However, the New NP differs with this plan on one important point, namely that, if it is accepted, the Palestinians cannot insist on the so-called right of return. Israel’s right to an own Jewish state in terms of Prince Abdullah’s proposals will never become a reality if the refugees have the right to return.

Our position is that violence is not a solution to the Middle East problem. We further believe that discussions should be resumed as quickly as possible and, to ensure this, that an international arbiter must see to it that the Mitchell report which was accepted by both Messrs Arafat and Sharon be implemented immediately. It is proposed in this report, amongst other things, that all violence be suspended, that the Palestinians curb all acts of terror by way of stringent punishments of the offenders, that Israel suspend the expansion of all settlement areas and that the closure of access routes to the Palestinian areas be suspended.

We have said throughout that if South Africa wants to play a role in this solution - and both parties have already indicated on more that one occasion that they would like to share our experience in this regard - our role must be that of an impartial outsider and we should therefore not become emotionally involved.]

We cannot condone the senseless attacks from either side. In terms of the global coalition against terrorism we cannot condone the senseless suicide bombings like the one the day before yesterday in which 16 Israelis were killed. Neither can we condone unacceptable acts on the Israeli side which only serve to add fuel to the fire. The present Indian ambassador to South Africa has mentioned on occasion that no political situation can justify acts of terror and that violence is not a solution.

What we as the New NP would like to see is that this House condemns any form of violence by either of the two parties, including the senseless killing and maiming of innocent civilians; that this House firmly supports a return by both parties to the negotiating table; that this House calls on both parties to immediately implement the Mitchell report which was accepted by both the Israeli and Palestine authorities; and that this House supports negotiations on the basis of the Saudi-Arabian and Taba proposal which specifically refer to the position of Jewish settlements, the so- called right of return and the position of Jerusalem.

Mr R M NYAKANE: Madam Chair, what is really happening in the Middle East, especially between the Israelis and the Palestinians? Put differently, who or what caused the conflict between the Israelis and the Palestinians? A close scrutiny of the political dynamics of the first war suggests the following: Britain had conducted a treacherous diplomacy in the Middle East when it was engaged in the war with Turkey. It approached the Arab communities for help in its war with Turkey and promised in return to grant the Arabs an independent national state in Palestine. Meanwhile, in 1917, Lord Balfour, the British Foreign Secretary, had already released a declaration that after the war with Turkey, Britain would support the establishment of the Jewish national state in Palestine. Britain had therefore double-parked its political position and that led to a dilemma.

Britain could no longer smoke the pipe without coughing after the war due to pressure from the Jewish and Palestinian interests. She consequently passed the buck to the United Nations.

The United Nations therefore decided in 1947 to divide Palestine into two portions, the east and the west, without consulting the Palestinians.

Now we come to Sharon and Arafat. Ariel Sharon blames Arafat for supporting and funding the Hamas and Jihad terrorist organisations. He claims that for the past eight years he tried in vain to foster peace in Palestine through Arafat. As a result Arafat has been declared a terrorist. On the other hand the US decided to abandon cooling down Israel and declared Arafat the centre of the problem. The latest world perception is that America is part the Middle East problem.

Egyptian foreign Minister Ahmed Maher failed to team up with Arafat, becoming another player causing more conflict because Arafat counted him as supporting the Arabs. Ahmed accused Arafat’s Fata faction of being linked with the Hamas and Islamic Jihad and called on him to disassociate himself from them. All eyes are today on Arafat.

Are President Bush and Sharon aware of Arafat’s limited political influence within the Islamic communities in the Palestine? Mousa Marzook, a Hamas leader, ably put it as follows:

Hamas is a political power and not a security threat only; Arafat is the chairman but we shall not follow his orders; he wants to implement the US and Israel orders; we shall not accept that.

In conclusion, may I share with you the observations made by Time magazine. The argument goes that most Palestians now embrace suicide bombing as the only means at their disposal to resist unremitting occupation. No matter what Arafat may say or do, Hamas remains a danger to everyone engaged in the Middle East. The Hamas and its military wing, embittered by the American war in Afghanistan, are seriously considering adding US targets in Israel and the territories to the hit list. The US and Israel have to sit down and review their strategic approach. The Hamas and Jihad activists are a force to be reckoned with and cannot be ignored. They have to be part of the peace negotiating process. [Applause.]

Rev M CHABAKU: Chairperson, South Africans are familiar with political labelling such as swart gevaar'' and communist plot’’. These slogans were a deliberate plot to divert us from key issues such as apartheid, which the UN declared a crime against humanity. All these slogans were a big bluff!

With regard to the Palestinian issue we see a similar strategy. Any criticism of Israel’s policies is taken an expression of antisemitism. With this slogan the argument against Israeli occupation is supposed to be closed and sealed. Of course, we reject this attempt at censorship, because it dismisses the grounds for debate altogether.

No amount of suffering, be it of the Tutsis, the Kurds, the Armenians, the Vietnamese, the Bosnians or the Palestinians many confer on anybody immunity from criticism. Moreover, and sadly so, no amount of persecution would seem to immunise people against perpetrating the same horrible practices they suffered in the past. Remember the Holocaust that was faced by the Jewish community during World War II. How cruelly has Sharon decimated families, shelter and possessions!

We mourn and abhor the killing of people, especially the innocent Palestinian and the innocent Israeli people. No appeal to the incitement or supposed promises of some holy land declared by one God can condone the actions carried out by an invading and occupying army - or, for that matter, the cold-blooded massacre of innocents ordered by fanatic warlords in the name of resistance. Sharon may win this military and one-sided war, but he has lost the hearts and minds of many people everywhere in the world. The USA and Britain have also threatened the lives of many of their innocent citizens everywhere in the world.

No reference to a sacrosanct ``Greater Israel’’ can camouflage the fact that those settlements are armed colonies built on land shamelessly stolen from the Palestinians and occupied by Caucasian Jews from all over the world, especially from Eastern Europe.

There is no passage to peace via the annihilation of the other, just as there is no paradise for the martyr. The late Anwar Sadat, a former President of Egypt, once suggested that once the Middle East issue was over, they would build a temple on Mount Sinai. This temple would only be open on Fridays for the Muslims, Saturdays for the Jews and Sundays for the Christians. That was his vision at the time.

We in the ANC find this anti-Semitism allegation utterly deplorable, especially coming from Jewish intellectuals who so often constitute the reasonable, rational and creative backbone of Western societies. Why should we be subjected to such special pleading, or look the other way when it is Israel committing crimes? If Israel has to have weapons of mass destruction for its defence, all other nations should also have the same weapons for the same reason. That is logical. But we stand for peace and respect for all human life, in whom God has given us creative people from whom all of us can benefit by their inventions. We in the Free State have had comrade Bram Fischer, a Jew, who has given such immeasurable gifts to all of us.

Ms C BOTHA: An Afrikaner Jew!

Rev M CHABAKU: A viable state cannot be built on the expulsion of other people who have as much claim to the territory as one has. Might is not right. In the long run, his immoral and shortsighted policies will further weaken Israel’s legitimacy as a state.

Recently, MPs have had the opportunity of visiting the territories for the first time. And yes, I am afraid, they reasonably describe Palestine as resembling Bantustans - for too often their visit presented to them a duplication of the ghettos and controlled camps of misery we once knew in South Africa.

If Sharon were a general in the old South African army, he would have bombed Soweto and the Vaal Triangle out of existence. We remember that those townships were infested with what Israel describes as ``terrorists’’.

We have come through two world wars in the past century, yet, barely a year into the new century, we stand on the brink of a third. People of both Palestinian and Jewish descent reside all over the world. There are about 4,5 million Palestinians living in exile and I do not know how many Jewish people living outside of Israel. The third generation of Palestinians after 1948 - that is the year of the birth of Israel - still think they come from Palestine, even though they were born and raised in another country or in the concentration camps in Israel. These Palestinians call themselves the ``Palestinians returned’’.

Members of the NCOP must see that although there is a massacre and the destruction of the Palestinian landscape, there is still an active commitment to Palestine, no matter what it takes. Are we willing to allow the creation of another Hiroshima? How will this one end? Because it is not ending, it has just started.

Nelson Mandela has consistently said: ``There are good men and women in all communities.’’ These simple words contain the wisdom of the ages. Therein lies the answer to our present dilemma. The challenge is to find compassion in our hearts, across barriers, and to build a third way which sends a clear message: We do not want our children to die wherever they may find themselves, in Afghanistan, in Burundi, in the United States, in Kenya, in Palestine, in the DRC or in Israel. We need to strip away the ideologies and see the common pain of families when their loved ones die. Let us turn enemies into friends.

I am reminded of a statement made by a prominent local journalist, Zubeida Jaffer, who said:

When we brought peace to our apartheid-ravaged nation, we developed a third way. But this third way required pride to be swallowed, egos to be scaled down, uncomfortable compromises to be made. The hard challenge is for all those in the Middle East to settle their differences and for all the world to help do that or else be engulfed by an uncontrollable conflagration. Building peace now requires greater courage than piloting fighter planes and training soldiers.

It is important to note the contribution of the Nonaligned Movement, also widely known as NAM, on Palestine, which met at the ministerial level in Durban on 27 April 2002. The NAM members of the Security Council were invited and participated in the meeting.

The Ministers welcomed UN Security Council Resolution 1405 of 2002 on the dire humanitarian situation of the Palestinian civilian population and the fact-finding team dispatched by the Secretary-General. The Ministers also welcomed the proposals of the Secretary-General of the United Nations on the establishment of a robust and credible multinational force under Chapter VII of the Charter of the United Nations. The Ministers called on the members of the Security Council to quickly consider the proposal of the Secretary-General and to take the necessary measures in this regard.

The Ministers agreed that the presence of such a force could make an important, positive contribution towards the rapid achievement of a final settlement between the two parties. The Ministers called for an immediate end to violence, killing and destruction and the speedy resumption of peace negotiations on a final settlement, one which would end the Israeli occupation, including the colonial settlements, and lead to the establishment of a Palestinian state with Jerusalem as its capital. The Ministers took positive note of the vision affirmed by the Security Council in Resolution 1397 of 2002.

With these few remarks, I am sure that we shall overcome. We shall overcome and God will overcome and the devil will be crushed down. Amen. [Applause.]

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF FOREIGN AFFAIRS: Chairperson, hon members, I think if there was any doubt why we should be discussing this issue, the contribution by many hon members has given the answer. Clearly, we cannot remain silent when a catastrophe is beginning to unfold before our very eyes. Events in the Middle East now are going beyond the Palestinian- Israeli conflict and are beginning to engulf the whole region. Indeed, they are a threat to world peace and security. Because of that, it is incumbent upon us to discuss this. Otherwise it would be the silence of the guilty. We, whether we are in the provincial structures or national structures or outside of government structures, must make our voices heard. Failure to do so would ensure that future generations will not forgive us.

There has been some suggestion that we are not treating this matter with a balanced, impartial approach and there is some political expediency at play. This statement is made without any indication of what is meant. In fact, it is again in the context of seeking. We are trying to find a peaceful solution, as most of the speakers have said. It is not just a statement. Then there is no indication of what we are being accused of in being partial and politically motivated and, indeed, not balanced.

Let me quite clearly state that we cannot be impartial, as other speakers have said, to the issue of the latest suicide bombs, just as we cannot be impartial to all suicide bombings that have been carried out in the Middle East. We cannot be impartial about that, and we have to condemn it without any reservations, because, as has been said, no acts such as these can be justified by any cause. And, indeed, it is my contention that the act’s timing, at the very time when Prime Minister Sharon was meeting President Bush, in fact leads the strategy of those who are trying to reflect that the Palestinians are not partners for peace and, indeed, are really the terrorists.

I want to believe that we condemn this suicide bomb, like others, specifically because it diverts attention from where the real violence is being perpetrated and therefore puts the Palestinians in the dock. Therefore the suicide bombers do not serve the interests of the Palestinians as a whole. I think that it would be good if the House, as was mentioned by one speaker, took note of the fact that President Arafat has consistently condemned terrorist acts for the reasons I have given, against civilians, of course. But here again, after the latest act of terrorism he called on his security forces - or what is left of them, because a large part of them has been destroyed by the Israeli offensive - to take action within their limited framework to stop any further attempts at terrorism. But, I must repeat, his capacity has been decimated by the Israeli defence force actions.

He said once again, in his televised address last night, that he would join the fight against terrorism whether it was against Palestinians, Israelis or the United States. It is that element that we must begin to give credit to. The very fact that 14 senior Palestinian leaders who have publicly supported the suicide acts have now been arrested is, I think, a manifestation of the commitment of the Palestinian leader to find a peaceful solution.

In this context we cannot be impartial; we must condemn and support the attacks against suicide bombing. But, at the same time, we cannot remain impartial to Prime Minister Sharon’s statement as he was leaving the United States, and I quote:

He who rises to kill us, we will pre-empt and kill him first. This belligerent statement is followed by the Israeli security council decision last night to give a green light to the defence force to act against the Palestinians. I want to believe that this is a dangerous move away from international law in terms of humanitarian law. Indeed, any action by the Israeli defence force in the same manner they have been acting in the last few months is tantamount to saying that in that place we cannot find a peaceful solution, and it is only a military solution that can succeed. We cannot be impartial to that.

I think that we are quite clear in our minds that terrorism is the symptom and not the disease. We cannot ignore the reality that the peace dividend which brought hope to so many Palestinians and Israelis after the historic Oslo accord in 1993 has not materialised. Nobody can challenge the fact that since 1993 Israeli settlement in Palestinian territory has continued unabated and relentless. The freedom of movement of Palestinians, as has been indicated, has been systematically curtailed and Israeli troops continue to impose collective punishment on the Palestinians.

I want to agree with everybody who says - and we cannot be impartial about that - that fundamental to the resolution of the conflict is the creation of an independent Palestinian state. We must accept the reality that no level of violence from the Israeli state will stop that from the Palestinian side unless this objective is achieved.

Colin Powell, the Secretary of State of the United States, a few weeks ago said, and I quote:

Prime Minister Sharon has to take a hard look at his policies and see whether they will work. If you declare war on the Palestinians and think you can solve the problem by seeing how many Palestinians can be killed, I do not know that that leads us anywhere.

So, clearly, the Israeli logic of seeking out and destroying so-called terrorist bases fails to understand that the Palestinians are ready to die because it is no longer possible for them to live as a dispossessed people. Therefore we are partial in saying that no amount of violence against the Palestinians will stop their struggle for their own homeland and national state.

I want to believe, as other speakers have said, that the surest guarantee for an Israeli state within secure borders is to have a Palestinian state which is side by side with the Israeli state. Together they have to build economies and relations across the borders and bring about peace, which is in the interests of both the Israelis and the Palestinians.

Honestly, we cannot be impartial to the level of violence that has been taking place in the Middle East in the last few months. And, as I have said before, we cannot pretend that this does not affect us. Indeed, these are heavy casualties on both sides, nearly 2 000 Palestinians and 400 Israelis killed, and a single death is one death too many. Under no circumstances can somebody ask why we discuss this issue and not another issue. This is a fundamentally dangerous situation we are experiencing.

As speakers have said, nowhere else in many years have we seen such systematic destruction of Palestinian infrastructure - not only the security and government infrastructure, but medical facilities, water and sanitation facilities, roads, the airport, the agricultural sector. The scale of the destruction is very difficult to compare with any other situation that one has experienced for a long time.

Indeed, I want to say that we have all been subjected to the reports of the massacres in Jenin and other occupied territories. It is therefore important that as we sit in this House, and the other House, we should be able to raise our voices against the terrorism perpetrated by elements among the Palestinians as well as the state action that is being taken against the Palestinian people.

Regarding the United Nations Secretary-General - this is where I disagree with the hon member Durr - the motion is nowhere near the Security Council motions unanimously accepted by all, including the United States, or by the emergency session of the General Assembly two days ago, which was voted in by 74 in favour with four against. The resolutions are quite clear. As the Secretary-General said:

… self-defence is not a blank cheque … responding to terrorism does not in any way free Israel from its obligations under international law, nor does it justify creating a human rights and humanitarian crisis within the occupied Palestinian territory.

He went on to say:

There is an urgent need to comply with all provisions of international law, particularly those that ban indiscriminate and disproportionate use of force, as well as the humiliating treatment of a civilian population.

It is not we who are saying this because of political expedience; it is the Secretary-General of the United Nations. I want to believe that he reflects the view of all those in Israel, Palestine and internationally who are committed to finding a peaceful solution and ending the cycle of violence that is leading to the loss of so many lives. In fact, the Secretary- General says that the report of his envoys in the Middle East, especially in Jenin and the occupied territories, has deeply disturbed him. He went on to say: ``The situation is horrific. The destruction is massive and the impact on the civilian population is devastating.’’

The Human Rights Commission has said that there have been severe human rights violations. The NAM meeting and the EU have also reflected on this. So we cannot be impartial to the scale and the level of brutality that is being perpetrated in occupied Palestinian territories. Just as we cannot justify suicide bombings against Israeli civilians, no end can justify the means that the Israeli army is using in the Palestinian territories.

The siege of Arafat has thankfully ended, but again, nowhere in the world have we witnessed a situation like that - that a leader proclaimed by his own people as their leader is kept under siege. Now we are told that he is not partner to negotiations and they must find another partner. The message that we must send is quite clear. Arafat is the only leader that can deliver long-lasting peace, and nobody has the right to determine who leads the Palestinian people.

Let me also say that the events around the Church of the Nativity must shock all of us, irrespective from what denomination we come, because it is unacceptable that that took place. But it is also a matter of fact that not only churches and mosques, but also other religious institutions in the occupied territory have experienced severe damage because of the actions of the Israeli army. This is unacceptable in any civilised world.

Therefore, we cannot be impartial about this. Let me also say that we cannot be impartial about the fact that the Israeli government has refused to implement any of the Security Council resolutions. Resolutions 242, 328, 1402, 1403 and 1405, were, as I said, unanimously accepted. The refusal by the Israeli government to implement these resolutions, with clear impunity, means one is undermining the very multilateral structures that one needs to strengthen to deal with terrorism, underdevelopment and poverty.

I do not think we can remain impartial to the reality that Israel is the only country in the world that can treat Security Council resolutions with impunity, as it has done. This means that, as South Africa and as the international community, and in order to ensure that the United Nations institutions do not collapse into disrepute, we will have to argue for the implementation of these resolutions.

The very fact that Israel could prevent the fact-finding mission of the Secretary-General of the United Nations from going to Jenin to investigate reports of massacres is again something about which we cannot remain impartial. Where else in the world is this possible? Even the South Africans, for a long time, were unable to prevent missions from abroad investigating what was happening here. Until we have a mission going to Jenin and other territories, the suspicions will remain that something happened there that the authorities want to hide. No, we cannot allow that to continue, because if we want long-lasting peace we must let the truth come out. We must ensure that we create the conditions for this to be dealt with. The reasons for not allowing the Security Council mission are quite unacceptable by any standards.

But what must we do, as the NCOP, the National Assembly, and, indeed, society as a whole? I think we must start working to ensure that both sides build a shared vision of peace and future relations in a time of peace. It is quite obvious: one makes peace with one’s enemies, not with one’s friends, and peace makes enemies into friends.

Now, this is something that the present Israeli government, led by Prime Minister Sharon, must accept. He must accept that one will never solve that problem through violence and military means, and that the only guarantee for stability and security is peace. We must send out a message to Prime Minister Sharon that he must start negotiations immediately, without any preconditions. I mean, he should realise the basic truth that preconditions place in the hands of a man of violence the right to veto any discussion and engagement on an agenda for peace. Indeed, it is our belief that preconditions give those on both sides who do not want to see a peaceful solution, an opportunity to sabotage any movement towards genuine peace.

And then, as I said, we must, of course, take into consideration - and this is what came out in the spear initiative that was undertaken by President Mbeki with the peace forces on both sides - the fears and concerns of the other side and engage seriously with that.

Raising our concern about what the present Israeli government is doing is not, as one of my colleagues said, anti-Semitic. Indeed, we find it quite unacceptable that a movement that grew up fighting anti-Semitism, because we believed that anti-Semitism was a smokescreen for other forms of racism, can now be accused of being anti-Semitic. It is a fundamental element of our policy to fight all forms of discrimination, and anti-Semitism is the worst form of discrimination.

But if we do not begin to find a solution to the Middle East issue, those right-wing elements in Europe and the United States who have begun to show the ugly heads of anti-Semitism and racism will gain strength and exploit that situation for their own wrong purposes. So, it is quite important that we move quite decisively to strengthen the peace camps on both sides.

I want to say what President Arafat has referred to on many occasions, also after he signed with Rabin, the then Israeli Prime Minister who was unfortunately and sadly assassinated by another right-wing lunatic, that what is in the interests of Israelis and Palestinians is to seek the peace of the brave, which Rabin and Arafat initiated. I want to believe that that is the message we put forward, totally impartially, because we support those that are committed to peace. We will reject and oppose all those who are committed to war. And that I do not think hon members can ask us to be impartial about. I do not understand how one can be impartial in a situation like that.

Let me therefore say - and I am repeating this - that we will support in Israel and in Palestine all those who pursue an unconditional agenda for peace. This is not a narrow commitment to any political party or to any liberation movement. It is a commitment of support to all elements of Israeli and Palestinian society who believe that peace can be won back from the ruins and tragedy of the present events. We want to believe that this is the hope and vision for both Israelis and Palestinians.

So, before I end, let me say we are continuing dialogue with the Palestinian national authority, with the Israeli authority, with the Israeli peace camp, on the basis that unless one has a legitimate right of the Palestinian people to a national Palestinian state, one will never be able to guarantee the security of the Israelis. On this issue there can be no debate, and there can be no questions about it. At the same time, as I said, we will always condemn acts of terrorism because, as I started by saying and as Arafat has just stated, every time there is progress, some form or act of terrorism that takes place turns the clock back and puts the Palestinians in the seat of the accused. I think this is unnecessary and indeed makes it difficult to find a peaceful solution.

In conclusion, let me quote a former attorney-general of the state of Israel, who said, during the prime ministership of the late Rabin:

The Zionist dream’s realisation and the Jewish people’s national birth were not achieved because of tanks, planes or other aggressive means. The state of Israel was born because the Zionist movement realised that it must find a solution to Jewish persecution and because the enlightened world recognised the need for that solution. However, the Six-Day War was forced upon us, but, the War’s seventh day, which began on June 12, 1967, has continued to this day. It is the product of our choice. The Six-Day War’s seventh day has transformed us from a moral society, sure of the justice of Israel’s creation, into a society that oppresses another people, preventing it from realising its legitimate national aspirations.

I think that quote captures for me the understanding of many Israeli people that their future is interlinked with the future of the Palestinian people. It is also the voice of those within Israel and outside who come from the Jewish faith, who are raising their voice to say they will not remain silent while the Israeli government, in the name of the Jewish people generally, is carrying out the acts that it is carrying out. I think that it is a good sign that there are people within Israel and the Jewish faith generally who are standing up to voice this message of hope and future prosperity.

In Israel many movements have arisen. There is the For Mothers Movement. There are conscientious objectors among soldiers. The former Israeli head of security has said that one will never be able to solve the situation militarily, and with the conscientious objectors, who are growing in number, saying they need to move out of Palestine and allow a Palestinian state to exist, which will determine the existence of an Israeli state.

The Arab initiative and the Mitchell initiative are all openings to find a solution. Anybody who is genuinely committed and who has read the Arab resolution from the last Arab summit, will realise that this is a genuine commitment to finding a long-lasting solution, which takes into account the needs of the Israeli society to have a state within secure borders. It and the Mitchell tenet plan give the Israelis an excellent opportunity, especially those that are in power, to find a solution that is in the interests of the Israelis themselves.

I want to believe that we must mobilise the international community through the United Nations, through NAM, and through interactions with the United States and the European Union, to try to ensure that the many peace plans that have been put forward are implemented. Again, one cannot be impartial about this reality.

Let me then conclude by saying that we must leave this House more convinced that the future of all of us depends on getting a peaceful resolution to the Middle East crisis, and it is not in support of one another, but it is in support of justice, equality and human dignity. [Applause.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Order! I thank Deputy Minister Pahad, who has played a very supportive role in two important debates. The NCOP has made him work in the House this term.

Debate concluded.

                         APPROPRIATION BILL

              Vote No 33 - Water Affairs and Forestry.

The MINISTER OF WATER AFFAIRS AND FORESTRY: Chairperson, hon members, sanibonani, dumelang, avuxeni, goeiedag, molweni, salaam aleikum and shalom, we are a Government of delivery and achievement, and we are building a better life for all our people in every part of this wonderful country. The key challenge for grass-roots delivery is to make democracy work at local level.

So whilst I will report on the remarkable achievements of our Government in water service and sanitation and the management of our forests, I start by talking about the delivery and management of democracy at local government level. This is most relevant to this august Council of the provinces, and if we do not understand the importance, I am not going to be able to get the House to understand what my department is proposing in this coming year.

The experience of the last millennium is that many great civilisations grew from strong local structures, and water has often been the focus of the first attempts at local organisation. The Dutch invented local government in the 12th century to manage the water that threatened their lives. The British established their local government system to bring to an end the plague and pestilence of their 18th century cities.

The ANC has always promoted participation of communities in running their lives. The whole structure of local government - the approach to participatory planning, accounting to residents by councillors - is designed to re-enforce this. But it is one thing to design a system and, as we well know, another to implement one.

We are entering another important phase in the process of building local democracy. We have established our municipalities; now we have to make sure they do their job of providing services to our people efficiently, effectively and affordably. We have to ensure that they play their role in creating jobs and opportunities. That is the challenge of this phase of our struggle.

It is against this background that I want to start by reporting an important success achieved by my department this past year. Each year the implementation of our water services programme has relied more and more on local government. In the last financial year we warned that because new local governments had only just been established, it would be difficult to spend the available budget and comply fully with the conditions imposed by Treasury through the Division of Revenue Act, for full local government involvement and ownership of this process.

In July of last year, I issued quite a warning to my director-general to say that we had better find ways of stepping up that expenditure flow. It was a difficult year to keep delivery going. The exemplary work of my department and support from all concerned - Salga, provincial MECs, and the mayors and councillors - made it possible for us to spend and spend effectively over R1,1 billion of the budget, the largest amount ever allocated for water services - that is one part of my budget since 1994. With this expenditure we managed to provide a basic water supply to 1,2 million people and improved sanitation for 50 000 households during the year. Approximately 280 000 people were given health and hygiene education. Temporary job opportunities were created for nigh on 100 000 people and training for well over 11 000.

What does this mean for our provinces? In KwaZulu-Natal there was a special effort in view of the cholera outbreak. An amount of R304 million was spent to serve over 367 000 people with basic water supply and over 23 000 households with sanitation. In Limpopo province, also threatened by cholera, which fortunately was contained due to the dedicated and hard work of all structures, a total amount of R234 million was spent to serve almost 500 000 people with basic water and 5 600 households with sanitation.

In the Eastern Cape an amount of R170 million was spent to serve almost 130 000 people with basic water supply and 718 households with sanitation. About R132 million was spent to serve 117 000 people with basic water supply and 364 households with sanitation in Mpumalanga. In North West, the Chief Whip’s province, about R91 million was spent to serve nearly 50 000 people with basic water and nearly 9 000 households with sanitation. In the Free State, the province of the Reverend who was so eloquent on the Middle East issue, R22 million was spent to allow over 27 000 people to receive clean water and provide sanitation to 343 households. The Northern Cape programme focused on sanitation, and I can report that over 10 000 households have improved sanitation facilities in addition to 40 000 in that province receiving clean water.

This is a department of our Government that is delivering, and there is more. In terms of agreements with the Department of Provincial and Local Government, my department focuses less on the urban provinces of the Western Cape and Gauteng, but as monitor and co-ordinator of Government’s sanitation programme, I can tell hon members that in those two provinces over 113 000 families benefited from improved sanitation. We can multiply those households by eight, or by 10 even, to get an idea of the number of people we are reaching.

That was largely as a result of investment associated with our national housing programme. It demonstrates a point - people are concerned with what Government does, not what individual departments do. We celebrate the fact that nationwide the total delivery of sanitation last year was to 356 000 units, that serves 2,5 million people. We can now deduct 2,5 million from that awful figure of 18 million in last year’s backlog in terms of sanitation. Two and a half million in one year is not bad going for the Government, or any government in this world. That was the combined result of the programme of our Department of Housing, the Department of Provincial and Local Government and my proud Department of Water Affairs and Forestry.

Our delivery is being recognised. I am very proud that this year my department was awarded a very prestigious prize, the Energy Globe Award for sustainable development in water. We received it in Austria as the best programme out of over 1 300 selected from 98 countries. [Applause.]

In the coming year I am pleased to announce that the exchequer budget, that is R3,5 billion this year, including poverty and infrastructure allocations previously made, together with donor funding, will see the expenditure on our community water and sanitation rise to an all-time record of R1,215 billion.

That is our Government that is determined to deal with the backlog left to us by the apartheid nightmare. This includes a contribution of almost R200 million from the international donor community who understand that we know how to look after their funds, and that we can put that money to work in a transparent and accountable way. That is why my department is receiving so much from the European Union and other countries.

My department, consequently, has been able to budget an amount of nearly R900 million for water supply and almost R160 million for sanitation, the highest level ever. This is double last year’s amount for sanitation and as much as we spent on sanitation in the past five years.

We are getting to grips with the sanitation backlog. Those allocations will enable a million people or more to receive clean basic water and toilets this coming year, toilets for approximately 150 000 households, including the real beginnings - and I pledge this to members - of the eradication of the bucket system. [Applause.] This year, 10 800 households in the Free State - I draw the hon Reverend’s attention to that - 5 800 in the Northern Cape, 3 300 in Mpumalanga, the North West and the Western Cape and 2 080 in the Eastern Cape will be replaced. Hallelujah!

We are already on track to making the constitutional right of access to basic water supply a reality. With this year’s budget we provide the springboard and this, strategically, is so important. Those were important statistics. But what last year did more than that tremendous sturp forward in the year, was create the real springboard for us to attack the sanitation backlog.

We are taking the lead in ensuring that sanitation is given its rightful priority, not just in our country, but in Africa and the world. I will be very proud if I am remembered as ``the Minister of Sanitation’’. [Laughter.]

We are organising, together with the United Nations, an Africa-San working meeting ahead of the World Summit to decide here in South Africa how the world will decide to improve sanitation in Africa and globally. Amanzi ayimpilo, water is life and sanitation is dignity. [Applause.]

Because sanitation is a matter of health and dignity, as well as of the protection of the environment, we have launched what we call the Wash Campaign - water, sanitation, health. ``Izandla ziya gezana’’ - the one hand washes the other - emphasises the importance of health and hygiene education to beat the scourge of cholera and similar diseases.

We will continue to work to increase the funds available for delivery of better sanitation through community-based projects that create jobs at the same time. ``Izandla ziya gezana’’ emphasises partnership and co-operation, as the one hand must co-operate with the other to beat cholera.

Sanitation is not a dirty word; it means dignity for people. At the current rate of progress, this Government will wipe out the deficit of 7 million of our people still without clean water. We will wipe it out by the year 2008. And the 15,5 million to 16 million people now without adequate sanitation will have adequate sanitation by the year 2010. This is a mighty programme of delivery.

I must always emphasise, however, that the provision of infrastructure for water and sanitation is only a first step. It is only worthwhile putting the pipes in the ground and building the toilets if they are effectively operated, maintained and sustained. This brings me to the point, again, of local government.

In terms of our Constitution, the provision of water and sanitation is the responsibility of local government. In terms of our Constitution, national and provincial government must help and support them and monitor their performance, intervening only where necessary.

The approach of our department has, since 1997, been to address water services as a local government support programme. Now, with the establishment of our local governments in December 2000 and with the passage of this year’s Division of Revenue Act, we have established a programme for the transfer of the responsibility. Within three years, 334 schemes operated by the department, inherited from the former homelands, are to be refurbished and transferred to the local government concerned or to service providers nominated by them, which may include the water boards, the family of regional public water service providers.

The budget allocated to my department, which I have shown hon members how well we are putting it to use, will be progressively transferred, either through the equitable share of revenue for local government responsibilities, or through a consolidated municipal infrastructure grant which my department will help to administer.

I am pleased about this, but I am going to watch this very carefully because we have done our work, we have shown how we can spend the money and what we are doing. We have to ensure, with hon members’ help, that we can transfer, that local government is going to be able to take over the baton and carry on the job. Otherwise we will fail.

As part of the transfer process a review is under way of all the water schemes - those built since 1994 with department funds, as well as those inherited from the homelands, in order to ascertain their sustainability and identify requirements for refurbishment. But we must understand that keeping schemes working depends, as I have said, on local government that works, and, with it, communities that are committed to managing their own lives. We need to create incentives for local government and communities to organise and manage their service provision effectively. We can do it.

This is a wonderful country; we have the people who know how to do it. Therefore I am very pleased to welcome to this House today, sitting up in the gallery, Mrs Busi Mzila of the Nhlungwane village community of KwaZulu- Natal, which last year won the Water Institute of Southern Africa’s Award for Excellence in Rural Water Supply. [Applause.] Malibongwe, malibongwe, malibongwe! [Viva!] I am pleased that she has an escort from the community with her. She and the community did not wait for a distant district municipality to come and establish and run their water scheme. With the help of an NGO, Mvula Trust, they bought a scheme which they run themselves, using contributions from village members. I must also congratulate Mvula Trust on its approach to promoting community self- sufficiency and the Water Institute of Southern Africa on instituting these sustainability awards.

There are three important lessons here. The first one is that our development should not have to wait for Government, as the people have shown. We can all start initiatives. Secondly, local government must learn that it will not do everything by itself, and if a community has the ability to organise, local government should support their efforts. The third lesson is the question of local government having the right to choose who its service provider for water will be. Now, although it is continually stated by certain critics of this Government that this is favours privatisation, let me make it clear that this is not the case.

The Water Services Act and municipal legislation allows municipalities to choose private service providers, but that does not mean that private service provision is a preferred option. What is most important is that local government chooses a service provider which can do the job effectively.

The conclusion is simple. Those who oppose privatisation must get off the sidelines and put their shoulders to the wheel. In the spirit of vukuzenzele [stand up and do it for yourself.] my message is: Work with us to help make the public and community sector a viable alternative.

The issues of sustainability and choice of competent service provider bring me to another important achievement - the introduction of free basic water. By the end of last year over 66% of those people served with water by a municipality were already benefiting from the introduction of free basic water.

This year, on 1 July - a significant date, the new financial year for local government - I expect 24 more local authorities to begin implementing the policy. This will ensure that another 3 million people will receive access to free basic water, bringing the combined total to 27 million people, 76% of those who have access to infrastructure. The outstanding 70 municipalities which still have to introduce free basic water will be targeted with support to ensure that we make further progress.

With all the change that has occurred at local government level, as well as in the financial arrangements nationally, I must acknowledge that many questions have arisen about the policy regarding water services, specifically with regard to local government and more broadly. How should local government organise itself and be supported to ensure that water services are provided reliably, affordably and efficiently? Members will have to help local government to understand and answer this question.

I have initiated a policy review process to bring our 1994 White Paper on water supply and sanitation up to date. A discussion document is being distributed to all interested parties throughout the country to address these questions. How should financial transfers to local government be made? Can we require the equitable share to be used to provide free basic services? How will the water and sanitation services be supported by the new municipal infrastructure grant? What consideration should guide the choice of service providers? What is the role of the water boards? Should there be a national regulator? These are just some of the questions that will be addressed over the next few months.

Let me turn to another sector, vital to the lives of our people, particularly the poorest and particularly in the rural areas, namely the forestry sector. Here, too, there are important issues of governance, in this case affecting provincial government agencies, communities and traditional authorities, which must be addressed. We are well aware that there are limited formal job opportunities in our rural areas, and that it is hard just to subsist. We know 80% of the energy needs of the rural poor are met by using firewood. Even where there is electricity, many cannot afford to use it for cooking, and have to rely on firewood, which the women usually collect.

We know, too, that our natural forests are places of great cultural importance. I therefore take very seriously my role as custodian of the nation’s forests. A great deal of attention has been given to the restructuring of commercial forests over the past few years, and we have made good progress in achieving our objective of handing over to commercial management their operations that, by their nature, are best run as businesses. This has greatly benefited many rural communities.

Commercial forestry plantations contribute to poverty reduction through creating jobs and business opportunities, and generating income. The private companies concerned have recognised that they cannot operate effectively in rural areas without good relationships with their neighbouring communities. As a result, they have engaged in innovative partnerships through which rural communities, including traditional authorities, have gained access to the benefits of commercial forestry.

The restructuring process has also facilitated black empowerment and allowed the previously disadvantaged a share in the ownership and control of the forestry companies. All private sector bidders had to allocate at least 10% of shares to black empowerment interests, and up to 9% to workers via the employee stock ownership option plan. The approach towards empowerment has varied in different bids. In some the companies sought communities as partners while in others they have joined with established black-owned companies.

Singisi Forest Products showed how a large private sector company could form a joint venture with community groups, to take over and manage 70 000 hectares of commercial forests in the Eastern Cape and KwaZulu-Natal. The Siyaqhubeka consortium was the first case where a black company, rather than a community trust, took shares in a forestry company, running the KwaZulu-Natal plantations previously managed by Safcol. These are important initiatives and will be joined by the Komatiland bid, in which a wholly black-owned company, Zama Resources, is negotiating as the preferred bidder for the largest block of forests in Mpumalanga and Limpopo.

I must also tell members that our initiatives to restructure our management of indigenous forests, to ensure that they are preserved and used for the benefit of local communities, are bearing fruit. I need to tell members about the many ways in which our forests are being developed and used to create livelihoods for our people. How many know, for instance, that the Mineworkers Development Agency, has developed a programme, with the support of my department, to use the marula trees in the north of the country as a source of valuable essential oils? Two thousand four hundred women from 42 villages are involved in this project, supplementing their income by a small but useful R275 a month each.

In the Eastern Cape, a private company, Storms River Adventures, has initiated a unique tree canopy tourism project, which allows people to visit Knysna’s unique yellowwood forests. This has created a number of useful new jobs.

Our timber harvesting programme in the Knysna Tsitsikamma forest has just been recommended for certification by the international Forest Stewardship Council.

Then there is a new product to absorb spilt oil on roads or in rivers. It is made from the leaves of the Casuarina pine, collected, with assistance from my department, from the coastal forests of KwaZulu-Natal and processed to make a useful contribution both to local employment and to our exports. Similarly, in the same province, more than 500 people have been employed to collect resin byproducts from pine trees.

In the Free State, we have a community-based nursery in Botshabelo which has had great success is selling tree seedlings for use in mine reclamation in a joint venture with the local mining companies.

All of of these examples help, I hope, to illustrate that our forests and trees are truly a national resource and one that can be and is being protected and used for the benefit of our people.

One of the developments under construction will be the transfer of indigenous forests currently under my department’s management to South African National Parks. If agreement can be reached between the conservation agencies at national and provincial levels, I would be happy to delegate the management of these forests, if it would result in more efficient management of a function that is currently broken up among a number of different departments and agencies.

I expect similar developments in my department’s unique Working for Water programme. This programme aims to eradicate invasive alien plants, to protect biodiversity, to improve land use and to reduce the amount of water used by these plants. In the present year, Working for Water has cleared over 227 000 hectares, done follow-up work on 285 000 hectares, and created short-term employment for over 17 000 people, at a cost of R331 million.

I come back to my starting point. For all of these activities to be successful, we need sound local management. If our communities are to prosper, we have to build the capacity of local government to support them. We have to ensure that the capacities and energies of traditional authorities and other community structures are effectively tapped and directed to achieving a better life for all.

Tomorrow, kusasa, in the National Assembly, I will be addressing some of the broader challenges we face, the challenge of planning a strategy for our national water resources, the challenge of planning to deal with drought, the challenge posed by our engagement with Africa through Nepad and the coming World Summit on Sustainable Development in Johannesburg.

In all these initiatives, the key to success is to think globally, but act locally, eradicate poverty and create a better life for all. I am mightily proud that my department is playing its role in a government of delivery, a government of Vukuzenzele. [Applause.]

Rev P MOATSHE: Madam Chair, hon Minister, coming with good news to all the South Africans, our Chief Whip, MECs present, permanent delegates …

Motswana a re tlhapi solofela leraga metsi a tshele o a lebile. [Preserve the little that you have.]

At a world conference on water that took place in Holland, it was said that 3% of the world’s water was clean, which implied that 97% was already polluted. That poses the challenge to protect the 3% from pollution. Clean water is the gift of life. It can overcome poverty, hunger and disease. Therefore the domestic water supply is widely acknowledged as a key element in the fight against poverty and diseases. Adequate drinking water supplies are rightly seen, by our Government, as essential to the wellbeing of all South Africans.

Giving an adequate supply of fresh, clean water to a poverty-stricken community is like giving a blood transfusion to a dying person. It creates a complete transformation in the community. Children become more eager to learn and young men and women are able to work harder to earn an income and to produce more food. It provides the community with new potential, new hope and new life.

However, water plays a far broader role than in the traditional domestic activities of washing, cooking and drinking. In particular, water plays a crucial economic role; from watering livestock to brewing beer in rural, urban and peri-urban environments. Water is a crucial enabler of economic activity, particularly for women and the poor.

The awareness of the centrality of water to people’s wider livelihoods has led to an increasing awareness of how important it is to preserve this natural resource in the interest of future generations. The continuous expansion of the number of people who need water and sanitation services and growing industrial and agricultural activity, as a result of greater economic opportunities in our country, has increased the demand for water. Our water resources are threatened not only by this rapidly increasing demand, but also by diminishing quality caused by pollution.

It is against this background that we have to view the department’s budget. This budget has been shaped by the need to balance the fight against poverty with the need to preserve our natural water resources. It has been shaped by the need to balance the increasing demand for water, brought about through the increased economic and agricultural activity of our people, with the need to preserve our natural water resources.

It is no mean feat for any department of water affairs anywhere in the world to increase the number of people who have access to clean drinking water and sanitation facilities by millions in the short space of a few years. This department has done it and for this we applaud them. However, there are still areas that have not yet been reached by the roll-out of free basic water and the provision of sanitation facilities.

Specifically in the North West province I interacted with the local municipality of Madibeng in Brits in connection with a project that was embarked upon four years ago, in 1998. This project has not been completed yet, because after the first phase, no provision was made for it in the budget. I think it was an omission which must be rectified urgently. The rural villages of Modderspruit, Bapong and Majakaneng are located between Rustenburg and Brits, which forms the southern gateway to the North West province. They are at the intersection of the N4 and the Sun City main roads and fall within the Madibeng local municipality’s area of jurisdiction.

These poor communities, comprising approximately 30 000 people, do not have access to an adequate supply of clean fresh water, which has resulted in the deterioration of the environment, education and health conditions. The urgency of our plea for support is augmented by fears for the possibility of cholera outbreaks in some of these villages. A water supply project for the area was initiated during 1998, and the first phase of construction was completed by the middle of 2000. The Eastern district council contributed R1,5 million, and the province contributed R4,5 million for phase one.

This water supply project involves the design and construction of a bulk water supply pipeline from Sonop to Modderspruit, as well as a pump station and a reservoir. In addition, the project involves the completion of the water reticulation network for the respective villages. The feasibility study for the entire project has been completed, but as a result of a shortage of funds, only phase one of the project was implemented.

The remaining phases of this project link up closely with the initial phase. The success of the overall project depends on the implementation of the remaining phases. Funding from provincial of local sources for the remaining phases of the project is urgently required to ensure the construction of the remainder of the reticulation, pipelines and the pump station, as well as the reservoir.

The Bojanala Platinum district municipality needs to contribute R5,2 million towards the project. The North West province needs to commit itself to contributing the sum of R8,9 million for phase two of the project. Although the North West province’s department of water affairs and forestry allocated R1 million for this rural water supply scheme, no further funding has been approved for implementation in accordance with the approved Department of Water Affairs and Forestry business plan, amounting to R13,15 million. Funding is required for the implementation of the remainder of this priority project in order to get water to the people.

Some of these problems relate to illegal water connections, vandalising of street taps and leaky water pipes. Water, as we all know, is not an unlimited natural resource and we have to use it with great circumspection.

As patriotic South Africans we all have the responsibility to report illegal water connections, the vandalising of street taps and leaky water pipes which have been installed at great cost. Illegal water connections and leaky pipes can result in costly losses in the long term. Water that is being used through illegal connections or is lost through leaky pipes cannot be accounted for and billed. This results in reduced revenue and subsequently a reduction in the funds available for new water projects. Those who use water through illegal connections and those who fail to report it or fail to report leaky pipes are unknowingly depriving other poor communities of water. The negative impact of unaccounted water through vandalisation, leakages and illegal connections becomes even more apparent if one takes into account the rapid rise in the cost of developing new water sources.

The cost of developing new water sources has risen because of a combination of various factors. The most accessible water resources, in other words those which need less money to develop, have largely already been tapped. Furthermore, I come to the water resources that are less accessible. To develop such water resources would require more money and more advanced technology. This technology is not readily … [Time expired.] [Applause.]

Rev M CHABAKU: Chairperson, water is a source of life. People, vegetables, animals and insects are all conceived in water. Some grow in water. When they come into this world they are washed in water or licked with a wet tongue. Water is vital for a tiny acorn to become an oak. It is often used to soften the hardest dirt and is able to crack concrete and rocks. Through water, lightning strikes with great power. As human beings, over 80% of our bodies are made up of water, hence water is very important.

The potential exists to establish job creation projects to utilise sewage outflow for vegetable production and other appropriate irrigation possibilities through the use of purified sewage in the following areas: Welkom, Wesselsbron, Odendaalsrus and most towns in the Free State. Through the utilisation of purified sewage outflow which otherwise would flow back into the natural river system, the potential exists to cultivate a substantial volume of normal consumable fresh produce, as well as to develop and expand the paprika industry.

A number of applications exist for the effective combating of invader plants for which manual labour can be used and is well suited. Projects have already been identified in the Reitz and Clarense districts to remove alien plants from roads, railways and along riverbeds. It is imperative that these invaders be removed timeously and effectively in order to avoid the spreading thereof to neighbouring farms.

A large potential to combat and remove alien invaders exists in the eastern Free State, especially the Thabo Mafutsuanyane area, where Scotch thistle and boetabessie [bush-tick berry] are primarily the largest threat at the moment.

There is an existing potential to do effective wetland reclamation through the use of manual labour in the Thabo Mafutsuanyane area. Projects of this nature will primarily be aimed at, for instance, reclaiming dongas in wetlands and the curbing of soil erosion through manually erected structures in wetland areas.

The removal of eucalyptus trees in Jacobsdal, in the south west Free State area is an attempt to curb the unproductive consumption of ground water. Projects of this nature can effectively be undertaken through the use of manual labour and have the potential to generate secondary value-adding potential through the sale and further processing of the removed trees.

A potential seasonal job creation possibility also exists for the removal of hyacinth and other invader water plants in the above-mentioned catchment area. In this instance manual labour can be used to remove such plants from the banks of a number of dams and rivers.

Farmers’ associations also have a direct interest in these initiatives and can fruitfully be incorporated in such a scheme. This is a sample of the ways in which poverty alleviation can be achieved through water-related projects. People are gathered to share what their visions of poverty alleviation may be. They often bring about inventive and creative ideas for a better life for all. The need is now. The action, therefore, should be now. [Applause.]

Mev A M VERSFELD: Voorsitter, afgesien van die enorme probleem van viskwotas veral aan die Weskus, staar hierdie gebied ‘n nóg groter ramp in die gesig, naamlik water. Daar is drie kategorieë wat vir my tot groot kommer strek aan die Weskus. Eerstens is daar die Ramsar-terrein by Langebaan. Dan is daar die Skuifraamdam en derdens is daar die Langebaan Road akwafir. Ramsar val egter nie in die Minister se departement nie, maar sy departement se optredes het wel ‘n direkte invloed op hierdie terrein.

Ek gaan nie lank vertoef by die Skuifraamdam nie, aangesien ek verlede jaar daaroor gepraat het. Aangesien dit nou ‘n gegewe blyk te wees en die grootste rede vir hierdie besluit is om in die behoefte van die mense van die Kaapse Metropool te voldoen, wil die DA egter waarsku dat die oplossing nie in hierdie dam lê nie, en wel om die volgende redes.

Kaapstad gebruik tans 800 miljoen kubieke meter water per jaar en nog is geen genoegsame poging aangewend om water te herwin soos in Windhoek nie. Die Skuifraamdam sal 120 miljoen kubieke meter water hou, waarvan 90 miljoen kubieke meter geoormerk is vir Kaapstad. As daar ‘n styging van 5% per jaar in die waterbehoefte aanvaar word, dan sal die styging in drie jaar, te wete die jaar 2005, 120 miljoen kubieke meter water wees. Sou die dam dan eers voltooiing bereik die vroegste in 2006, het die behoefte alreeds teen daardie tyd die dam verbygeskuif. Of ons nou daarvan hou of nie, die enigste opsie is herwinning van rioolwater deur middel van die erkende tegniek wat in Windhoek suksesvol toegepas word.

My groot probleem met die dam is dat dit die watergehalte van die benede Bergrivier geweldig gaan beïnvloed. Ek het dit in verlede jaar se begrotingspos duidelik uiteengesit en huldig nog steeds dieselfde standpunt. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)

[Mrs A M VERSFELD: Chairperson, apart from the enormous problem of fishing quotas, especially on the West Coast, this area is facing an even greater disaster, namely water. There are three categories on the West Coast that give me great cause for concern. Firstly there is the Ramsar site at Langebaan. Then there is the Skuifraam Dam and thirdly the Langebaan Road aquifir. Ramsar, however, does not fall within the Minister’s department, but his department’s actions do have a direct impact on this site.

I am not going to spend much time on the Skuifraam Dam, as I spoke about it last year. Seeing that it now appears to be a given and that the most important reason for this decision was to provide for the requirements of the people of the Cape Metropole, the DA wants to warn, however, that the solution does not lie in this dam, and in fact for the following reasons.

Cape Town at present uses 800 million cubic metres of water per annum and nevertheless no adequate efforts have been made to recycle water, like in Windhoek. The Skuifraam Dam will hold 120 million cubic metres of water, of which 90 million cubic metres have been earmarked for Cape Town. If there is an increase of 5% per annum in the water requirement, within three years, that means in the year 2005, the increase will be 120 million cubic metres of water. Should the dam only be completed at the earliest in 2006, the requirement would by then already have exceeded the capacity of the dam. Whether we like it or not, the only option is recycling sewage water by means of the acknowledged technique, as is being applied successfully in Windhoek.

My greatest problem with the dam is that it would have a tremendous effect on the quality of the water of the lower Berg River. I explained this clearly in last year’s Budget Vote and I am still of the same view.]

Minister Kasrils said in a press statement, and I quote:

I must emphasise that it is Cape Town water users who will have to pay for the dam.

Do the people of Cape Town know that, according to the World Commission on Dams, dams normally cost more than 56% of the original cost and that this dam has a large number of hidden costs? So it is vital that water conservation programmes are stepped up.

Maar indien, soos dit nou blyk, die dam ‘n werklikheid is, is daar een aanbeveling waaroor die DA sterk voel en dit is dat daar ‘n pyplyn van Voëlvlei af na Withoogte aangelê word en nie direk in die Bergrivier gestort word nie, want daar word bereken dat ten minste die helfte van die water met die stortingsproses verlore gaan voordat dit Misverstand weer bereik. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)

[But if, as now appears to be the case, the dam is a reality, there is one recommendation about which the DA feels strongly, and that is that a pipeline should be installed from Voëlvlei to Withoogte and that water should not be released directly into the Berg River, because it is estimated that at least half of the water is lost again in the process of releasing it before it reaches Misverstand.]

That brings me to the Langebaan Road aquifer. It is interesting to note that the three most important propositions on which the proposals for the subtraction of underground water from the Langebaan Road aquifer are based have proved to be wrong. I discussed this issue in detail during the debate on this Vote in 2000.

May I therefore inform the House about the well field in the Langebaan Road aquifer after one year of pumping, and presently, after two and a half years. We have experienced the wettest winter in 40 years, yet the level of the Langebaan Road aquifer is still dropping and it appears that the potential yield from this has been grossly overestimated. The loss of water and consequent expenses incurred by farmers subsequent to starting to pump in November 1999 must be ascribed to the excessive withdrawal. The department can surely expect a claim for compensation for losses incurred on several farms caused by the impact of this water abstraction scheme. The enormous cone which developed only 11 months after pumping is larger than predicted by the CSIR for five years of withdrawal.

If it continues increasing, it may start drawing recharge water from the surrounding saline areas, with permanently disastrous results. I would like to refer the Minister to a well-point about eight kilometres from where pumping was done. Within two months, the well, which had never before run dry, was dry. Two kilometres further on from this well, two excavations dried up six months after pumping. A permanent well, another two kilometres further, dried up after 18 months and another well, 14 kilometres away, was now drying up after 30 months. Remember, all this happened after the wettest winter in 40 years.

The Department of Water Affairs and Forestry decided to put down another six boreholes. Unfortunately, these would only be supplying present data and no information on baseline conditions. New monitoring boreholes that had been sunk in 2001 were not monitored before November 2001, and they were sunk in February. Although this permit has been granted on a temporary basis, there is no question about the extremely dangerous signs. A drop in ground water resulting from pumping could affect the whole lagoon marsh around Geelbek, as well as the Ramsar site.

I would like to urge the Minister to support the need for studies to be co- ordinated and more research to be done. Another big concern is the quality of the water in the Voëlvlei Dam, which is periodically choked with algae. The Skuifraam Dam and the extraction of ground water are therefore of direct interest to the industries, people and environment of the West Coast.

Dr Shand of Ninam Shand was involved in the EIA studies for the Skuifraam Dam and said the following: ``No water will be taken from one user and given to another user.’’ This is not our only concern. Our main concern is the quality of water of the people of the West Coast. [Applause.]

Mr K D S DURR: Chairperson, I was just remarking to my colleague behind me here what an excellent speech she made, because many of the things that I wanted to say, she has said, and therefore I will be very brief about them. Many of us - and certainly my party - are pleased with the announcement of the Skuifraam Dam. But we are concerned about it. We are concerned that comprehensive impact assessment should be done as far as the Berg River floodplain and the whole estuary are concerned. The estuary is not only important from a natural point of view, but also from a fisheries point of view. There is a huge spawning area for fisheries in that area. It could be very sensitive to the kind of things that we would like to do upstream. I am not saying that they should not be done and being a prophet of doom. I am just saying: As far as it is humanly possible, we should have as close a look as we can before we start.

In principle we know that, given the development of the Western Cape, we simply have to build that dam if we can. It is also true to say that my colleague was absolutely right in that the whole question of water management and the water management policy of the unicity becomes absolutely crucial.

It is true that the unicity is the only bedding down now, with 14 municipalities coming together and going through a period of transformation. Nevertheless, it should be a priority for the unicity to develop its water management policy plan. It is true to say, confirmed by responsible opinion that we could effect savings of easily 20% of current water consumption given a comprehensive water management plan: That is roughly the capacity of the Skuifraam Dam, so water management would stretch our water resources for a much longer time and give us much more water safety and be a wiser management of our scarce reserves.

I would like to know what the Minister means when he talks about ``off- budget expenditure’’; of the dam being financed in such way that is not on the budget and that it is going to be financed by the water rates paid by the consumers of the water. Does he mean that the water from the Skuifraam Dam would be sold, or is he saying that all water that is currently impounded will be sold at an increased rate, which would actually pay for Skuifraam? Will Skuifraam pay for Skuifraam, or will Skuifraam plus all the existing fresh impounded water pay for Skuifraam? How does he intend to do that and has he got any idea as how that is likely to impact on water rates? It is quite critical for us in the Western Cape because a lot of water is used for agriculture. One cannot farm with expensive water. It is impossible.

That brings me to the Olifants River Basin. The hon the Minister would know that that whole river system is under stress in terms of shortages of water that are coming to the fore. That is quite difficult, because, firstly, it is a poor part of our country and agriculture is a very, very important element in development in that part of our country. Agriculture is locomotive for the agri-industry and for many other kinds of economic activities. We cannot slow down the growth in agriculture and water is fundamental in order to expand in this area. A great many of the previously disadvantaged farmers also need water … [Time expired.]

Dr E A CONROY: Hon Chairperson, Minister and colleagues, Gauteng congratulates the Minister and his department on the excellent work done in the last three years, whereby 4 million more people have been connected to running water, bringing the total to 7 million since 1994. We celebrate with these 7 million people and look forward to the ongoing efforts of the Minister in achieving what must be one of the most fundamental rights of people.

We know the Minister is concerned about the challenge of putting in place systems which can sustain this progress. We share this concern. The reality of poverty in both urban and rural communities means that often this water is cut off because water systems could not be maintained and repaired.

Despite our commitment to free basic water for all, financial problems have resulted in many local governments disconnecting supplies to people who are too poor to pay water bills. In order to achieve this right to free basic water for all, we need to ensure that our systems of co-operative governance are continually improved in order to achieve greater efficiency and effectiveness in delivering basic services.

In Gauteng we are ready to support this. We are deeply aware that local government plays an important role in our system of governance. It is a delivery and development organ of the state which is the closest to our people. Premier Shilowa of Gauteng has announced that over the next three years we will assist municipalities to implement effective billing systems, revenue collection, debt management, integration of systems, financial viability and sound procurement and tendering processes through the municipal institutional support centre. This will, by strengthening the capacity of municipalities, enhance our collective responsibility to ensure that the goal of a minimum amount of free water for all is progressively achieved and sustained.

One of the greatest challenges for co-operative governance is effective service delivery in cross-border municipalities. In February, the Gauteng premier announced that, together with national Government and our counterparts in Mpumalanga and the North West, we have reached agreements on joint administration on local government matters and methodology to address issues such as the effective utilisation of combined municipal infrastructure programme funds in cross-boundary municipalities.

We reiterate our call made on the NCOP last year for the NCOP to send a team to look at whether we are living up to our commitment to ensuring equitable service provision in cross-boundary municipalities. Of course, the delivery of water and sanitation is the most crucial component of this service delivery. The premier’s co-ordinating forum will continue to address the issue of service delivery, the challenge of homelessness and the provision of water, electricity and much-needed sanitation to our communities.

We also welcome the publication of the White Paper on sanitation. This is a service fundamental to the health of our people, in particular the 18 million who do not yet have access to basic sanitation. We share the Minister’s concern at the fact that more than 40 000 children die each year from diarrhoea caused by dirty water. We share his deep concern about the ongoing incidence of cholera. In view of this desperate human need, it is crucial that the Department of Water Affairs and Forestry makes every effort to complete all budgeted-for water and sanitation projects within each financial year. Whatever the blockages may be in terms of capacity, by means of co-operative governances these issues must be resolved so that our valuable resources are indeed directed to the poorest of the poor.

We look forward to participating in the Minister’s plan to work intensively with municipalities in consultation on the White Paper. In Gauteng we will support this process so that all tiers of government share a common understanding of and commitment to implementing the measures envisaged in the White Paper and aligning the work of our officials to achieve these goals.

In Gauteng we have decided, after taking into account that more than 25% of areas in Gauteng do not have adequate water and sanitation, that we are now ready to launch a project that will deal with this challenge in the next four years. With the support of the Minister of Water Affairs and Forestry, and together with local government and through the Mayibuye project and the combined municipal infrastructure programme, we will help to provide every citizen in established and planned settlement areas with clean water and healthy sanitation at an appropriate level of service.

In his opening address to the legislature, Premier Shilowa announced that R1,4 billion would be allocated for the provision of on-site services over the four-year period.

I would also like to refer to the problem of water pollution. The responsibility for effective systems of preventing water pollution and ensuring that the polluter pays is the responsibility of the Minister of Water Affairs and Forestry.

A year ago on World Environment Day we held a conference in Gauteng on the state of the environment in Gauteng. Minister Kasrils graced that conference with his presence, for which we wish to thank him again today. It was noted that the environmental pressures on Gauteng are enormous because it is a province with an ever-increasing human population and development pressures caused in part by influx from other provinces. Industrialisation, urban sprawl, informal settlements, high population densities and mining all contribute to pollution, resource depletion and environmental degradation.

The conference confirmed the commitment of all in Gauteng to sustainable utilisation of our natural, social, economic and cultural resources in order to progressively achieve the rights enshrined in the Bill of Rights in the Constitution to sufficient food and water and a safe and clean living environment for our generation and, most importantly, to leave a legacy of sustainability for the generations to come.

The conference called upon Minister Kasrils to work together with all departments and levels of Government to ensure development, repair and maintenance of infrastructure such as our sewage system in order to guarantee environmental health. Most importantly, it called upon the hon the Minister and others to work diligently to establish a working monitoring and enforcement system that includes incentives where appropriate and the use of penalties to ensure compliance with environmental norms and standards.

The hon the Minister is aware of the massive pollution of the national water resources in Gauteng as a consequence of mining pollution and pollution from a range of industrial activities. He is also aware of the problem of open holings across the length of the Witwatersrand and the implications of this for groundwater levels and for the marginalised communities who live in close proximity to these dangerous holings.

The Gauteng Mining Pollution Forum has been informed that a report on a study on water ingress from holings recommended that the state should establish a strategic water management committee, prepare an executive summary and also determine which of the ingress points should be prioritised for closure. We request the hon the Minister to support this decision to fill up the holings. In doing so, there is a need to work closely with the relevant municipalities, particularly the Ekurhuleni metropolitan council.

Gauteng thanks Minister Kasrils for his commitment to our people and, in particular, to the poor, among whom the greatest number are women. We applaud his dedication to the tasks he has been given. We look forward to working closely with him to achieve a better life for all. [Applause.]

Cllr M MVOKO (Salga): Madam Chair, hon Minister and hon members, as a starting point I would like to say that Salga and Department of Water Affairs and Forestry have developed better working relationships over the past six months with the establishment of the water services sector leadership group, of which Salga is an active member.

Furthermore, in January 2002, with Masibambane and donor support, Salga revitalised its water and sanitation technical support team, which subsequently brought in local government expertise enabling Salga to proactively engage in a range of policy and programme matters through the various sector working groups, such as the National Transfer Task Team and the National Sanitation Task Team.

Turning to the Budget Vote in question, Salga supports the Vote on the whole when read in conjunction with the Division of Revenue Act, which briefly describes an exit strategy for Department of Water Affairs and Forestry with regard to its capital infrastructure programme. However, Salga wishes to comment around key policy priority issues such as institutional restructuring, the transfer of water services, water boards, 2010 waste-water standards and free basic services.

Although the aspect of water institutional restructuring is not a programme in the budget on which we can comment, we understand that thinking is taking place around the long-term institutional look and size of Department of Water Affairs and Forestry after the establishment of catchment management agencies. Hitherto, Salga’s involvement in water institutional restructuring has been requested more in respect of water services. However, even national water resources restructuring will fundamentally impact on local government and, therefore, Salga requests that this process proceed with the full participation of local government from the outset.

We understand that there are somewhat separate debates around the national utility, CMAs and the role of water boards, all of which, we believe, will most probably dovetail. We therefore support these debates being approached across the spectrum of both water resources and water services at the same time. Our concern is that we find ourselves in a similar situation as with the introduction of rates, where a department substantially considered the concept before Salga was consulted on the general concept.

Salga has identified the transfer of water services as a critical issue for municipalities, but it is not clear under which of the eight programmes in the Vote the transfer of water services has been included. Because it is difficult to ascertain in the budget, we raise the question as to whether there are sufficient funds for both Department of Water Affairs and Forestry and local government to manage the transfer process.

A joint study in 2001 gave a first estimate of once-off costs required to implement the transfer process of R1,8 billion. It must be noted that approximately half of this was costs of the Department of Water Affairs and Forestry, but the other half was municipality costs. Furthermore, it was found that substantial, ongoing subsidy requirements were needed to maintain transferred schemes, a point Salga will be taking up with the national Treasury, the Department of Provincial and Local Government and the Department of Water Affairs and Forestry in the near future.

We therefore need to disagree with the statement in the Vote that the persistent shortfall in the Water Trading Account will end when water service schemes are transferred to local government. This persistent shortfall will merely be transferred to municipalities. The question remains: What cross-subsidisation mechanisms will be put in place to assist local government in this regard?

The Water Trading Account is further unpacked in the Division of Revenue Act schedules which make it possible to identify the amounts the Department of Water Affairs and Forestry has budgeted for the management, operation and maintenance of national Government water schemes in each municipal area. However, there are a few municipalities that have initiated transfer negotiations with the Department of Water Affairs and Forestry and, during this process, determined the adequacy of the budgets in the Division of Revenue Act to manage, operate and maintain the present infrastructure. In all instances, the budget, in the opinion of the municipal engineers, was far from adequate, which led Salga to assume that either the schemes were being undermaintained or the Department of Water Affairs and Forestry had budgeted incorrectly.

Therefore, even if the funds currently going to the Department of Water Affairs and Forestry to manage, operate and maintain the schemes are redirected to the municipality coffers, in order to maintain the schemes to desired standards, additional funds will be required, either from revenue collected or from the national Government.

Salga is unsure whether the three-year timeframes for transfer of water services were introduced. We have discussed the matter and put on record that even though municipalities are willing to take immediate responsibility for operation and maintenance of the schemes, financial viability of these schemes will not be achieved in three years. From experience, we believe that this could take between five and ten years.

On the matter of water boards, we notice with concern the large amount of R106,4 million set aside for water boards during this year, with only a 4% decrease in this amount over the next three years, to a projected amount of R102,5 million in 2004-05. This validates Salga’s concern in respect of the financial viability and justification of the existence of some of the water boards. Because of this fact, and in the light of the establishment of new institutions, combined with a review currently being undertaken on the water boards, we believe and hope that this allocation might not be required in the future.

Salga has been aware of the proposed 2010 waste-water standards for some time now. Some of our municipalities have made technical assessments on the upgrading of treatment facilities that will be required to treat water to these standards. Needless to say, the costs are prohibitive. With a finite pool of financial resources, we question whether free basic water should not be given priority over very high waste-water standards.

Our municipalities have not determined the cost of free basic services, although the definition of free basic services was discussed at a recent meeting of a Salga water and sanitation task team. Municipalities find it somehow disjointed to separate water and sanitation services through different policies which aim to increase access to basic services. To municipalities, policies that apply to water should, by right, apply to sanitation, and this cannot lead to a situation where the level of free basic water may have to be lowered.

Even though at national level functions might be divided between the Department of Water Affairs and Forestry and the Department of Health, municipalities have to deal with the present cost of possibly fluoridating water. Again, these costs are exorbitant in most instances, and Salga is raising this in the appropriate forums.

Now, we fully endorse the stated priority focus in the strategic overview of provision of support to local government in performing their functions as a water services authority. We recognise that the capital and Masibambane programmes support provinces directly, and effective institutional development support is being provided. However, this is inadequately reflected in the Vote. For example, under the Regional Implementation programme, the Sustainable Development and Management budget of approximately R10 million has an output indicator of training provided.

Likewise, under the Waste-Water Services Programme, the Local Institutional Development Support budget of the R22,6 million, yet again, only seems to focus on training, with a lot of emphasis on communities, and hence its targets, we believe, that are inexplicably only focused on water boards. Whereas training has its place, we believe that the priority focus should be on the establishment of functioning water services authorities and water services provider arrangements with appropriately defined targets.

We are preparing detailed comments on all the aforementioned, which will be submitted to the Department of Water Affairs and Forestry for inclusion in the water services’ White Paper review process. As Salga has been less involved in water resources and forestry, we have very limited comments to make.

We understand that the country’s small and large dams that do not hold water but are considered a national resource will also be transferred to municipalities. Furthermore, municipalities have become responsible for some farms in their areas of jurisdiction. With these two points we can see that the allocation of water is also a municipal issue, and therefore, once again, we substantiate our request that the restructuring debates be approached across both water resources and water services.

I thank hon members for the time to respond to this Vote of the Department of Water Affairs and Forestry in the hope that the relationship between the Department of Water Affairs and Forestry and Salga will continue to be interactive. It is a working example of intergovernmental co-operation. [Applause.]

Mrs J N VILAKAZI: Chairperson, hon Minister and hon members, I greet you all. Let me begin by congratulating the hon the Minister and the department for continuing to reverse the apartheid legacy of denying essential services to black people in particular. In the rural areas, adults, as well as children, suffer extensively. Schoolchildren who cannot obtain water at their schools must suffer incredibly from thirst and inconvenience after physical exertion.

The hon the Minister is quite aware about water-borne infectious diseases such as cholera and many more. The spread of cholera had the sad consequence of water not being available. It is good that I heard the Minister mention cholera and everything. He is quite aware about that. I thank the Minister very much for that.

In a similar way, other problems continue to afflict rural people on a daily basis because of a lack of water. I therefore, on behalf of the IFP, plead with the Minister to expend even more energy to ensure that no area, especially in the rural areas, and no school is without safe and secure water.

Thina be-IFP siyalincoma iqhaza elibanjwe umhlonishwa uNgqongqoshe wezaManzi namaHlathi. Siyawabona amanzi efika nalapho esasingacabangi ukuthi ayofika khona. Phezu kunjalo kusekhona izikole ezingenawo amanzi. Imfundo yabantwana iphazamiseka kakhulu lapho.

Kunezindawo ezibalulekile emphakathini ezinjengemitholampilo, izibhedlela nezinye eziphelelwa ngamanzi bese umphakathi uyahlupheka, izindlu zangasese zinuke zithi phu kugcwale izimpukane.

Umhlonishwa uNgqongqoshe usuke ewafakile amanzi lapho. Kusuke sekungezasekhaya lezo zomasipala. Kuhle ngoba likhona ilungu leSalga lapha. Impela ukuphela kwamanzi kusuke kuyimbubhiso ezimpilweni zabantu. Siyamcela umhlonishwa ukuba acabangele izimo ezinjalo esabelweni sezimali sakhe. Amanzi ayimpilo, singephile ngaphandle kwawo. (Translation of Zulu paragraphs follows.)

[We, the IFP, appreciate the role played by the Minister of Water Affairs and Forestry. We see water coming to areas where we thought it would be impossible for them to have water. In spite of that, there are still schools that do not have water. Children’s education is greatly affected in those areas.

There are important institutions in the community, like clinics, hospitals and others, that are running short of water and the community is experiencing hardship. Toilets smell bad and flies flock to them.

The hon the Minister has already installed water there. That belongs to municipalities, it is local. It is good, because a Salga member is here. Really, the shortage of water is a disaster in the people’s lives. We ask the Minister to consider such situations in his budget. Water is life, we cannot live without it.]

The IFP acknowledges the work of the Minister and his department, and we support the Budget Vote.

Ms B THOMSON: Chairperson, hon Minister and hon members, I cannot begin to stress the importance of water. It is a limited resource with a multitude of demands. We need it for drinking, cooking and washing. We need it for sanitation to keep our homes and our communities healthy and free of disease. Safe water and adequate sanitation are essential for health. Therefore, access to clean, safe water and sanitation services is crucial for our democracy.

Water is essential in ensuring sustainable social, economic and environmental benefits for all. A better life for all demands that we all have access to water and that we benefit from it. Without the majority of our people having access to water, we cannot have a healthy and economically and socially viable society.

Unfortunately, owing to the legacies of our past, accessibility by the majority of the people, in particular the rural sector, still remains a challenge, but the situation is definitely not a basket case, because the Government of the people is committed to poverty alleviation, to the wellbeing of our people and to redressing the injustices of the past, in particular in the water sector.

A lot has changed since we obtained our democracy, thanks to the Government of the day, in particular, the Department of Water Affairs and Forestry. I would like to extend my congratulations to the department on the impressive work they have done thus far. It has not been an easy road, but the department has managed and still is managing one of our challenging sectors with high enthusiasm, vigour and commitment. I would like to express my gratitude for the level of their commitment to making sure that the poorest of the poor in our country do have access to water through the free basic water policy.

More people now have access to free water and are not deterred from using water supplies owing to their high cost or simply because they are poor. I am proud to say that today about 66% of the population has access to free water. The tariff structure in Durban, in my province, ensures that every household has an adequate supply of water. This further contributes to water conservation.

In the poor rural areas of my province, KwaZulu-Natal, where people are served by standpipes, water is still provided without their being charged. The rationale behind this is born out of the reality that the poorest do not have access to water and, therefore, it is not a privilege but their right to have access to water.

The department has embarked on the Working for Water programme, which seeks to enhance water security, restore and improve biodiversity; restore the productive potential of land; develop economic benefits from wood, land, water and trained people; and invest in the most marginalised sectors of our country and enhance their quality of life through job creation.

With job creation, millions of our people’s lives are being improved. Children will have access to quality education and families will be fed. On that note, on behalf of my committee, I would like to applaud the department. I say well done and keep it up. It is the job creation aspect which makes the programme so wonderful in terms of the Government’s commitment to social responsibility.

Allow me to highlight some of the spin-offs of the Working For Water programme. Not only does it create a platform for job creation, but it also empowers the emerging contractors who will have to exit the programme after a certain period, having gained the necessary skills and the culture of contracting. This programme also empowers the workers on the ground by offering education and training in basic skills. They will then stand a better chance on the job market after acquiring these skills. A case in point is the Dukuduku Forest project in KwaZulu-Natal. In addition, social development issues like crèches, literacy and HIV/Aids awareness are addressed. This programme emphasises gender empowerment as 60% of the contractors and workers must be women.

As we all know, nothing comes without obstacles and challenges. As I have stated before, this sector has been a very challenging sector. Therefore, it would be fair for me to point out some of the challenges. We need to be aware of our shortcomings for us to improve on them. One of the constraints facing the Working for Water programme is the limited financial resources at its disposal. Yet, the problem of invasive plants is so huge, because it compounds itself. More financial resources should be allocated to the programme, otherwise the good work achieved thus far will be in vain.

Certain municipalities are still struggling to set up physical and accounting systems to implement the supply of free basic water. At the present moment, my province, KwaZulu-Natal, together with the Eastern Cape and the Northern Cape, reflect a lower percentage of people receiving free basic water. In the Western Cape and Gauteng about 90% and 91% respectively have access to free basic water, compared to my province, in which about 39% have access. A lot still needs to be done for us as a nation in order to meet our target.

Sanitation has been another major problem, especially in my province. It has been directly linked to the outbreak of cholera. We hope that cholera prevention will continue to target communities at risk, in particular in KwaZulu-Natal, with support and education, emphasising the three barriers to waterborne diseases: safe water, sanitation and hygiene awareness.

Let me conclude by congratulating the Minister on the excellent budget. I feel that it is important to note that the budget has increased by 7,1% from 1998-99 to 2001-02. I think we all agree that this is something to make us smile, in particular the broader South African population, because it can only mean a better future for all. [Applause.] Mr M A SULLIMAN: Chairperson, comrade Minister, hon members, distinguished guests, when we think about water in this country, what springs to mind immediately is firstly the tens of thousands of citizens in the rural areas of our country who still have to walk miles in order to get clean, drinkable water in order to survive. Secondly, we contemplate the challenges we still face in order to wipe out the historical backlog. It goes without saying that this remains the immediate priority of this ANC- led Government and indeed of the Department of Water Affairs and Forestry.

One of the stated aims of the department is to ensure that water services are provided to all South Africans in an efficient, cost-effective and sustainable way, and the department must be recommended for their unwavering efforts in doing just that.

Let us have a look at the facts. Since 1994, more than 6,5 million people, or 66% of our people, who had no basic water supply, were provided for and now have access to this valuable resource. An important initiative was started in September 2000 when President Thabo Mbeki announced that the Government would ensure that poor households could obtain a basic supply of 6 000 litres of free water per month. This has given us the distinction of being a country which has met the millennium water supply target set by the United Nations in 2000.

Although this is a function of local government, the department set in motion a range of processes in all three spheres of Government to implement policies, one of which was the development of financial motives to assist local authorities with their implementation.

The fact that the department’s community water supply and sanitation programme was awarded the prestigious Water Globe Award for 2002 is testimony and a tribute to their dedication and commitment.

However, we also have to face the fact that about 7 million people in our rural areas still do not have access to clean water and about 20 million do not have acceptable sanitation. We are also faced with images of women on television and in the print media who are still covering long distances with buckets of water on their heads and shoulders.

Our province, the Northern Cape, lies to the south of its most important asset, the mighty Orange River, which provides the basis for a healthy agricultural industry. It also has a rich mining industry and it is self- explanatory that water indeed underpins our economy.

At present, about 92% of our municipalities in the Northern Cape have implemented the free water services. Most of these beneficiaries are the poorest of the poor. However, due to infrastructural backlogs, some municipalities are still experiencing difficulties in providing these services to the indigent, especially in our semi-rural and rural areas. In some parts of our province water is a scarce resource owing to a narrow strip of winter rainfall area along the coast, and we believe that together we can overturn this situation through partnerships with the public utilities and the private sector. As a province we are, in fact, very happy with the visit by the hon Minister in April this year as part of the Government’s imbizo week to acquaint himself with the various projects under way. One such project is the Working for Water project which removes the invasive alien vegetation that has grown like a plague to threaten our aquatic system. At present, six project areas are under way and this is greatly contributing to poverty alleviation in these areas.

This programme has a key role to play in achieving integrated rural development, with a key partnership between various departments. We also appreciate Minister Kasrils’ ``Wash’’ campaign to raise awareness about the value of good sanitation and hygiene. We are confident that this campaign will conscientise people about the importance of taking care of their own health.

We are also pleased with the announcement that the Minister in February this year of the publication of a national water resource strategy. This will certainly provide the framework within which South Africa’s water resources will be protected, used, developed, conserved, managed and controlled. It will indicate, for instance, where water is available for development and for additional irrigation.

Moreover, it will identify where new investment will be needed to meet domestic and municipal needs as well as where difficult choices have to be made, for example, between power stations and new mines. The strategy will provide the basis for achieving fair arrangements with neighbours who share our rivers.

When I visited Carnarvon on Freedom Day, I encountered something which was really not acceptable, whereas the official from the Department of Water Affairs and Forestry came and wanted to implement the VIP toilet system in Carnarvon. I was confronted with this particular matter, and it looks like our people out there are not happy with that particular system. I want to appeal to the Minister that we perhaps go down there ourselves to investigate what the problems are. People are not too happy with the VIP toilet system in Carnarvon. I think we should go there, listen to them and communicate with them, and I am sure they will tell us what their problems are.

My home town, De Aar, is a place with hardly any water. There were discussions in our province that we should apply our minds to this particular problem. With the PK Le Roux Dam being about 110 km from De Aar, there was a view in the province that we should sit down with the Ministry and the department to see if there was perhaps any possibility for us to either get a pipeline from the PK Le Roux Dam or a water channel in the direction of De Aar. I know this will cost a lot of money, but this is something that we need to pay attention to.

In conclusion, this Government has had remarkable success with delivering water to the previously unserved population of this country. Government has also adopted a national implementation strategy to eliminate the backlog by

1. We are optimistic about achieving this delivery milestone. In terms of our Constitution, the provision of water and sanitation services are the responsibility of local government, but national and provincial government should assist them, monitor their performance and intervene only when necessary.

In order for all of these activities to be successful we need to strengthen capacity at local government level, draw on the strength of our local authorities, and involve our community structures in order to reach the objective of a better life for all. [Applause.]

Dr E A CONROY: Chairperson, what I have said in this debate on behalf of my province, Gauteng, I could just as well have said on behalf of my party, the New NP. I will therefore not take up the time allocated to my party, save to say that the New NP fully identifies itself with the context of the speech I delivered a few minutes ago. We would also like to add our congratulations to Minister Kasrils on the outstanding work done by his department. [Applause.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr M L Mushwana): That was very good, Doctor.

Me A ROSSOUW (Wes-Kaap): Voorsitter, ek neem namens die Wes-Kaap deel aan hierdie debat. Ek dink nou nie ek gaan so gaaf wees soos wat Dr Conroy was nie, maar nietemin is dit vir my ‘n voorreg. Dit is die derde jaar wat ek aan hierdie debat deelneem en dit is altyd vir my lekker, want komende van die platteland, is die bewaring van ons water vir mens van allergrootste belang. Water is lewe. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraph follows.)

[Ms A ROSSOUW (Western Cape): Chairperson, I am participating in this debate on behalf of the Western Cape. I do not think that I will be as kind as Dr Conroy, but it is nevertheless a privilege for me. It is the third year that I am participating in this debate and it is always a pleasure, because coming from the rural areas, the conservation of water is of the utmost importance to one. Water is life.]

The management of our water resources and our forests is very important for sustainable development in South Africa. In the context of the Western Cape, it is well known that our flora is threatened by alien vegetation which removes millions of kilolitres of ground water per annum. This water is lost as a result of the high water consumption of vegetation that we can well do without. The approach that must be adopted in order to manage the resources I have spoken about needs to be one that is based on co-operative governance.

It is not widely appreciated that the maintenance of the water resources of the country is closely linked to the conservation of natural areas and to biodiversity. Not only does the maintenance of a natural cover of vegetation result in an optimal runoff of high-quality unpolluted water, but the maintenance of natural rivers and wetlands also plays crucial roles in the water cycle and provides numerous other benefits to society, such as flood control.

Close co-operation is therefore essential among the Department of Water Affairs and Forestry, conservation agencies, such as the Western Cape Nature Conservation Board, and the provincial and national departments that are responsible for environmental affairs, planning and agriculture.

The Western Cape province is extremely fortunate that far-sighted policies resulted in the protection of most of the major mountain catchments of the region as nature reserves, wilderness areas and other state forests, or in the case of private land, as protected catchments in terms of the Mountain Catchment Areas Act, Act 63 of 1990.

Although these protected mountain catchments cover only 9% of the province, about 1,2 million hectares, they protect the source of more than 50% of the water resources of this region. This is because the runoff is greatest from the mountains owing to the higher rainfall and the cover of the natural fynbos vegetation.

The Western Cape Nature Conservation Board is responsible for managing most of the protected areas in the mountains of the Western Cape as well as for administering of the Mountain Catchment Areas Act in the privately owned protected catchments.

The greatest threat to the water resources of the region is the invasion of catchment areas and rivers by exotic trees, such as pines and wattles. These invasive species form dense thickets that can cause a drastic reduction in water runoff by more than 50%. Fortunately, this threat to our water resources is being addressed by the Department of Water Affairs and Forestry through the Working for Water programme that aims to clear invasive alien vegetation from catchment areas and rivers. In the Western Cape, the Nature Conservation Board is the main implementing agent of this programme, and also provides jobs to hundreds of previously unemployed people. The development of skills is an important additional benefit of this programme.

Forestry plantations are also a threat to the water resources of the region, due to reduction of runoff that is comparable to that caused by thickets of invasive trees. However, a decision has already been made to phase out most of the state-owned plantations that are currently under the control of Safcol. This decision was based not only on the impact of the plantations on the water resources of the region, but was also taken because most of the plantations in the Western Cape are inherently uneconomic. The restoration of the plantations to natural cover of fynbos vegetation will have immediate economic benefits, by increasing runoffs to dams by more than 50%.

As already stated, co-operative governance is taken very seriously in the Western Cape, and several new working groups were established in the 1990s, such as the Provincial Water Liaison Committee, where top management of the Department of Water Affairs and Forestry in the region meets with senior officials of the different departments in the province on a quarterly basis.

The greatest boost for co-operative governance came from the drafting and passage of the new South African Water Act of 1998. Environmentalists and aquatic scientists contributed extensively to the development of what is one of the most advanced and environmentally friendly water Acts in existence. Several provisions and large portions of the Act deal with conservation and the wise management of water resources, with the only right to water being the environmental reserve. The reserve allows for an assured minimal water allocation to maintain the health of aquatic systems as well as an allocation for basic human needs. In addition, several resource protection measures are part of the Act to ensure the future conservation of rivers and other inland waters.

The drafting of effective environmental legislation, such as the impact assessment regulations of 1997, identified several listed activities for which an environmental assessment was necessary. Several of these listed activities affected water resource development and since they were part of national legislation, it became essential that co-operative governance be facilitated between the departments dealing with culture and sport, and that the Department of Water Affairs and Forestry ensures that the development evaluation process be as effective as possible.

An example of the progress that is being made with regard to co-operative governance is the memorandum of understanding concerning the streamlining of review processes of application to cultivate new land that has been drawn up between the provincial Departments of Agriculture, Environmental and Cultural Affairs and Sport in the Western Cape, the Western Cape Nature Conservation Board, the national Departments of Water Affairs and Agriculture, and the South African Heritage Resources Agency.

A committee is also being established for the implementation of the regulations of the Conservation of Agricultural Resources Act to enforce the clearing of invasive species on private land. Co-operative decisions regarding the application for permits for new afforestation are also being addressed.

Another important initiative is the national River Health Programme that has developed from the new Water Act with the aim of getting all stakeholders in river management involved in caring for our rivers. Several inititatives have been developed to promote a consistent method of river monitoring across South Africa. Both the Department of Water Affairs and the Western Cape Nature Conservation Board are actively involved in implementing this programme in the Western Cape, and the Lourens and Klein Brak Rivers have been chosen as pilot projects. A steering committee has been established with local authority, university and community groups to guide the implementation of the programme here.

It is clear that a key limitation in implementing the River Health Programme locally is the lack of sufficient capacity in the aquatic science field at both departments. I am pleased to announce that negotiations between our departments are at an advanced stage, in terms of which the Western Cape Nature Conservation Board will, on a contract basis, provide a service to the Department of Water Affairs and Forestry in the Western Cape to ensure the effective implementation of this important programme here.

Another working group that has progressed from strength to strength is the Western Cape Aquaculture Working Group, established in 1991 to promote sustainable aquaculture in our province. This group consists of representatives of the Department of Agriculture in the Western Cape, the Department of Water Affairs and Forestry, the Western Cape Producers’ Organisation, researchers and representatives of the Department of Agriculture, Environmental and Cultural Affairs and Cape Conservation. Adequate funding for the water resource protection and management, including the management of natural areas that serve as water catchment areas, remains a problem. However, the Department of Water Affairs has made considerable progress towards implementing the user-pays principle for the use of water, since all users of water, will have to pay a levy for water from 1 April 2002.

In closing, it is important for all of us to realise that the provision of water in our homes, in factories, and for agriculture requires close co- operation between the Department of Water Affairs and our nature conservation planning and other land management agencies and departments. Thanks to this growing co-operation the future looks bright for the sustainable use of our precious water resources in the Western Cape. [Applause.]

Mr R M NYAKANE: Chairperson, I think the hon the Minister and the department are quite aware that they are obliged, in terms of section 27(1)(b) of our national Constitution, to ensure that every citizen gets sufficient water supply. It would be naive of me not to appreciate that not all towns and villages in the Limpopo province suffer acute scarcity of potable water supply. However, we still observe an unacceptable number of villages and small towns that are deprived of their right of access to an adequate potable water supply.

Long queues of rural women are still seen at the borehole sites with 20- litre plastic containers, which is an indication that water scarcity is still a problem. As I stand and address this House, villages such as Croquetlawn, Marite, Timbavati, etc, have been without water for the past three weeks. They are in the Bushbuckridge area. When pump operators are called upon to come and help, their response is that they cannot come before they get an OK from head office, apparently referring to Pretoria or Pietersburg, we do not know. What an unnecessary excuse!

The new development is that the department will embark on a three- year programme, effective from 1 April 2002, to transfer all water services, schemes and projects to the local governments. I think this will undoubtedly address this problem. However, we are still sitting with a capacity backlog with municipalities, and we appeal therefore to the department not to cut off completely its links with local government. I think we should appreciate that transformation is a process that needs a considerable period of nurturing.

Perhaps it is high time that we employ the lady and the gentleman who accompanied the Minister in KwaZulu-Natal, in the municipalities, to show the municipalities how to deal with this matter of water supply, because it appears they have certain skills.

Before I conclude addressing water issues, may I indicate to this House that the major dams in Limpopo, such as the Middle Letaba, Arabi, Tzaneen, Nsami and Njaka are still full to capacity since the last heavy rainfall. We do not have a problem as far as abundance of water is concerned in the Limpopo province. However, the bottom-line problems are the inconsistent state of repair of the infrastructure, eg conveyance pipelines, pump machines and the scarcity of parts. These are the problems that we are experiencing. We hope that the transfer of an operating budget to the municipalities will help eradicate this particular problem.

When the Minister presented the department’s budget, I became aware of the fact that he had set aside R24 million for the pursuance of sanitation projects in the Limpopo province. It will be in the interest of the Limpopo residents to know where, or rather, in which villages, they will be undertaking these sanitation projects. The Limpopo province appeals for the funding to be spent … [Time expired.] [Applause.]

uMnu V V Z WINDVOëL: Mgcinisihlalo, Ndvuna lehlon kanye nani bekunene, angeke ngisaba mudze kakhulu njengobe naku ngisikhulumi sekugcina. Lokunyenti labanye balingani bami sebakukhulumile. (Translation of Siswati paragraph follows.)

[Mr V V W WINDVOëL: Hon Chairperson and hon members, I will not be long with my speech, especially seeing that I am the last speaker of the day. Most has been said by my colleagues.]

Without water there is no life, and without clean and safe water there is no happy life. Thus, water is the most precious natural resource God gave us. One may have tons of gold, but without water one will not only go dry- mouthed, one will perish.

The UN Millennium Declaration has as one of its objectives to lessen by 50% the proportion of people who are unable to reach or afford safe drinking water by the year 2015. The Department of Water Affairs and Forestry has made significant strides with regard to this. Since 1994, 353 water services projects have benefited close to 7 million people. This has ensured that water and sanitation services meet the needs of the poor, low- income and vulnerable groups, and are also gender-sensitive.

While commending the department on their ongoing progress on this aspect of service delivery to the people, one must raise concern regarding some of the uncompleted water projects not budgeted for in the subsequent financial year. We must also call on our citizens to positively co-operate with Government to ensure efficient and economical use of water resources.

Due to time constraints, I will not dwell on certain examples which I wanted to mention. However, the vandalising of street taps and illegal connections are also matters which are of great concern to us. It becomes more disturbing when certain political parties, like the UDM and the PAC, advocate for illegal connections and reconnections. One just leaves to the imagination what chaos and anarchy will ensue should such parties come to power and into government. [Interjections.]

We need, as members of this august House, to educate our communities about the negative impact this has on the stable and efficient provision of water. We are also calling on the responsible authorities to take drastic measures regarding these illegal connections. Of course, farmers who exceed their quotas and construct unauthorised weirs and dams should also be dealt with severely.

We also need to look into how far we have moved in terms of transformation, more especially in our regional offices. It is very disturbing that in certain regional offices there are still elements of racism. I want to mention one example of a regional office where a white official came to the office with a pet dog, and called that dog, using the name of a black official.

Mr A E VAN NIEKERK: He loved the dog, man.

Mr V V Z WINDVOëL: We must also look into other areas of corruption and nepotism. I must say that I did not expect such a comment from the hon Mr Van Niekerk.

There is also a need for a change of attitudes. People must focus on service delivery in the spirit of Batho Pele. We also need to convey our concern in terms of the minimal representation of rural people on the water boards. I think the role of district councils and municipalities has been covered by our speaker from the Cacadu district council. We greatly welcome the vigorous drive for the eradication of the racist bucket system, which was only meant for black people. I do not know who said that black people could not use waterborne toilets, because one does not have to go to school to learn to flush a toilet.

May I conclude by joining the hon the Minister in congratulating the Nhlungwana village community, not only on winning the award, but also on ensuring the water supply to their community. They have proved to the letter the words of the hon the President: ``No one, and no one can do for us what we should do ourselves.’’ Vukuzenzele! Amanzi! [Rise up and act! Water!]

HON MEMBERS: Impilo! [Health!]

The MINISTER OF WATER AFFAIRS AND FORESTRY: Chairperson, I say ``siyabonga kakhulu’’ [thank you very much] to all the hon members who have contributed to this very interesting debate. I would say that it has been very positive and fruitful.

I am delighted at the kind of support that has been provided here. I am very interested in the critical comments. Nobody would be able to say, having witnessed the debate, that those who have contributed are sycophantic or simply want to support their parties. We had across the board, from every party here, a very clear, solid appreciation of what my department has been delivering and the service it renders to our people throughout the country, jikelel’ekhaya [in all the households] in South Africa, and for each province.

Let me start in my attempts to reply by linking the last hon member’s comments with those of the first. We noted how both the hon Windvoël and Rev Moatshe put their finger on the question of illegal connections. Both eloquently called us and various role-players in this country to task in terms of the need to deal with that kind of criminality, vandalism etc, I really appreciate that.

The hon Windvoël talked about the fact that tons of gold will not keep one alive, but water will. As he spoke, I recalled how the economists were arguing about the conundrum: Why is it that diamonds or gold, something that does nothing for one’s state of health and will not keep one alive if one is without water and food, costs so much, and yet this resource, which is not infinite - amanzi [water] metsi [water] - is so little valued? We all require it to live, but people do not value it. It is regarded as though Modimo allows it to pour out of the clouds and no one should be paying.

Rev Chabaku from the Free State reminded us that we are 80% water. I just want to correct her: Human beings are 70%, chickens are 80% … [Laughter.] … and frogs are 90% water, by the way. But it is the problem that we have to get across when we come to boreholes which run dry and the fact that our people are not sufficiently attuned to saving water. Why do we have to build the Skuifraam Dam and another dams? I will come back to that. We must understand that there is a price to pay for water because, we cannot live by catching the rain that falls into buckets.

One can go and do that and then one does not have to pay anybody, or, like millions of rural people and especially women, one can go and take it free from the springs and the rivers and spend hours a day looking for it. They do not pay. I found women doing this next to Government water schemes that we had put in place, and they said to me: ``No, we have got to pay a few rands there and we have got no money.’’ They would rather use that money to put food on the table and go and spend several hours a day looking for water, often - increasingly often - polluted.

The opening statements and the end statements were very useful. I point to them as key elements to remind us what this is all about and of what an achievement the ability to deliver water is. There is also the question of water for agriculture and irrigation to make our nation and economy grow and so on. We came to provide free basic water, not because we do not value it, not because it does not have a price, but because we understand, as a caring Government, that there are people in this country who cannot afford the basic requirement, and we put that at six kilolitres per month. Therefore, I really ask all members from all parties to help us. We cannot allow this free taking of water, the illegal connections; we need everybody’s help. That is working together.

Let me also state, from another angle, that the points about transformation by the hon Windvoël are points and an issue which my whole department, from the Minister to the director-general, is grappling with all the time. I believe we are succeeding. We have done tremendous work. We have advanced. It is a department that is transforming. We are well aware, all of us, that we live in a society where none of us can say that there are no elements of racism from the past.

A Government department is like a rugby team or like a prosperous suburb or one where there is poverty. People carry the baggage of the past. In Government, with Batho Pele - and my department follows that through - we have our transformation programme and we do come down very hard on any element of racism, any disrespect for the dignity of people, and we have very solid programmes to counter that and to change attitudes.

Regarding the question of waterborne toilets of De Aar raised by my dear friend the hon Sulliman, I have looked very carefully at the De Aar issue and how much it would cost if we had to bring water that is in the Orange River from Vanderkloof all the way to De Aar. The cost really is prohibitive. It is R400 million just to lay the pipelines.

If there is no water in De Aar we must do it, but the point is that there is very good groundwater in De Aar. I have seen the studies. De Aar exists on the basis of that groundwater and therefore we cannot think of other alternative sources. Should we use that kind of money, the R400 million, when we are able to provide the resource? Providing an additional augmentation and spending that R400 million brings us back to what many hon members here said, including the hon Windvoël and again Rev Moatshe who both raised the question of people who are waiting.

Unfortunately, because we still have seven years to go, it does mean there is a queue. I do not choose, and neither does my director-general and the department. Actually it comes from the provinces. The provinces are playing a key role in how we prioritise and how we can choose. I do have a role and there are many cases where I look into the issues and see that in some areas there is an extremely important reason why there should be a prioritisation of this place or that place.

We have to apply this in a systematic and even-handed way. Clearly we are not a country where there is bribery and corruption at this level, and I have been to countries where I have seen how politicians respond to the areas that vote them in, or the areas where they have specific families - the nepotism referred to. I do not find that in our country.

Corruption in my department and government departments we deal with. I am very proud of that, but it obviously does not mean that there is nothing, and again we need the support of all hon members in this House, and they give it to me. They come to me and tell me about particular areas such as De Aar, the eastern districts of the Northwest, as the Reverend has come to me. We are able to examine these issues. I do so myself, with the support of my department; investigate on behalf of those hon members what the possibilities are.

Every member of this Council of Provinces and of the National Assembly has the access and that open door irrespective of party affiliation. I look at our friend from Gauteng, and from the New NP. I really want to thank him and, with everybody else, applaud him for making the best speech of the day. There is an advantage to wearing two hats. I can wear an SA Communist Party hat, and an ANC hat, a ministerial hat or a Middle Eastern hat. [Laughter.] We can talk as the situation arises, but I want to thank the hon member Dr Conroy for his support and the way in which he was able to present his case, as other speakers did, from the Western Cape and so on. One cannot deal with everybody, so I want to use this as an example of somebody telling us what the situation in a province is. I really thought it commendable that we had a member from Gauteng wearing his provincial hat and talking about his premier. I do not think that the member was talking that way because the New NP has come a little closer the ruling party. Or am I mistaken? [Interjections.] This is a good spirit and we saw this in the debate. [Interjections.]

I know that we are running out of time, so I want to come quickly to some other very weighty and important inputs from Mrs Versfeld. Clearly it would not have been the same occasion if Mev Versfeld had not spoken and focused on Saldanha and the Berg River along with the hon Kent Durr. [Interjections.] Sorry, is it Miss''? Is it mejuffrou’’?. Did I say ``mevrou’’? Sorry. Anyway, let me talk about the option of Skuifraam versus the treatment of sewage as in Windhoek.

Windhoek is a very interesting case. There is nothing else they can do for Windhoek. It is the only way. There is hardly any groundwater there. There is no possibility of a dam. The only option there is recycling. We have looked at this issue. We reviewed it. It is much too expensive in relation to the augmentation for a part of our country, namely the City of Cape Town, which would take 80% of the water. Saldanha will receive some of that water too, as well as the agricultural area of the Western Cape.

We have a city here, one of the most burgeoning, dynamic, expanding cities

• populationwise and economywise - which has to grow. If we put off the building of another dam at the farm Skuifraam - we still have to find a name for it - there is absolutely no question that we have to build it. We are looking at all the options. So there is recycling, which is very costly. There is desalination, which is also extremely costly. Bringing icebergs from Antartica is incredibly costly. It is logistically possible, they say.

I have been a hard taskmaster in the City of Cape Town regarding demand management, in its form now and previously. I said to them that I wanted them to prove to me that they were applying very strict education of the citizens and of the demand management programme. If they can show that to me, on that basis we can evaluate whether we need to build the dam. All other studies have shown that we have to, including that of my predecessor. They have done that and delivered the goods. I have had many a meeting with the councillors and the mayor of Cape Town - not the previous one. The City of Cape Town is the main client. It needs 80% of the water. We have looked at Saldanha.

Let me just finish on the issue of Cape Town. We will cripple Cape Town; we will cripple the economy of the Western Cape if we fail to provide in these water needs of the city. That is why we have gone again, after due process, public hearings and environmental assessments. It is perfectly clear about the need.

I will come back to Saldanha. I want to say to the hon Durr, who has left, but sent me a note of apology and will certainly be reading the Hansard - his party has supported the scheme, as has the DP and the New NP - that the environmental assessments being done have been reviewed and accepted by the Minister of Environmental Affairs and Tourism. The cost of the dam will be paid for by the charges for water from the whole system.

On the issue of Saldanha and the conservation issue with regard to Skuifraam, such issue is being introduced and will ensure that the growth of consumption is curbed. I have referred to the demand management aspect which was a condition for the dam. The Langebaan Road aquifer and the management of groundwater are very complex and require the co-operation of all users. In terms of the National Water Act, such use will be licensed so that we more effectively control and prevent the overuse of boreholes. This is often the reason why boreholes run dry. We require alternative measures, which is why I have talked about Skuifraam. There are also very extensive, brilliant aquifer systems in the Western Cape, stretching as far as …

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr Mushwana): Hon Minister, this is just a warning that your time is about to expire. The MINISTER: I had forgotten about that, but I am about to end.

The exploitation of the aquifers is being investigated. The yield for Skuifraam cannot answer in all the needs of the Western Cape, but within eight years or so we will begin to harvest the results of that extensive aquifer, which the geohydrologists are working hard at, as is my department. I will certainly look into the issue further. The hon member raised very detailed aspects here. It is complex indeed and I will see to it that I come and investigate this together with the department. We have a date. I have run out of time.

Let me thank the hon councillor from Salga for his input. I am very pleased about the co-operation that is taking place. He raised many detailed points which I will be dealing with and I will respond to, not only in writing, but in discussion terms, given the problem of the time. They are of a technical and detailed nature. It is not that I cannot answer them, but time has become a problem for the Chair, so I apologise to the member.

I want to thank all members for their input. The department and I look forward to further co-operation with all the hon members. [Applause.]

Debate concluded.

CONSIDERATION OF REPORT OF SELECT COMMITTEE ON LAND AND ENVIRONMENTAL
             AFFAIRS - KYOTO PROTOCOL ON CLIMATE CHANGE

Mr A E VAN NIEKERK: Chairperson, one of the most serious global environmental problems facing all of us was caused by all of us through human activities, namely climate change. This problem had to be addressed, but in a global way, and this was done by the UN’s Framework Convention on Climate Change and the subsequent Kyoto protocol. South Africa ratified the convention as early as 1997.

Voorsitter, wanneer ons toestem tot hierdie Kioto-protokol, bevestig ons ons verbintenis om die bedreiging van klimaatsverandering aan te spreek. Suid-Afrika het sekere verpligtinge wat hy sal moet nakom ten opsigte van, meer andere, bevordering van programme en samewerking ten opsigte van sekere wetenskaplike navorsing. Daar is geen manier dat ‘n Suid-Afrikaner of enigeen in die wêreld nou nog kan bakhand staan en wag vir ‘n regering van ‘n spesifieke land om iets aan hierdie probleem te doen nie. Elkeen van ons het ‘n verantwoordelikheid om betrokke te raak.

Suid-Afrika het ook voordele wat voortspruit uit ‘n internasionale onderhandeling wat ons ekonomie en omgewing direk sal beïnvloed. Suid- Afrika sal kan deel hê in die CDM - Clean Development Mechanism - se aktiwiteite wat aan ontwikkelende lande die potensiaal bied vir meer volhoubare ontwikkeling, toegang tot meer beleggings in die land en ‘n versnelde beskikbaarstelling van gevorderde tegnologie.

Ons enigste bekommernis lê juis daarin dat ontwikkelde lande soos die VSA, Australië en Rusland óf glad nie die ooreenkoms teken nie óf baie traag is ten opsigte van die doelwitte van die ooreenkoms. Ons besef dat dit juis die ontwikkelde lande is wat ekonomies negatief deur die ooreenkoms geraak word, maar as dié grootmoondhede hulle totaal hiervan onttrek, is daar ook min sprake van voordeel vir die ontwikkelende lande of die probleem in sy geheel.

Ons hoop hierdie gesprek met hierdie lande wat hulle nie ten volle betrokke maak by die ooreenkoms nie, sal voortduur en onderhandelinge sal nie ophou om alle lande betrokke te maak nie en te kontroleer dat die ooreenkoms deur almal nagekom word. Suid-Afrika en die wêreld het hierdie ingryping so nodig, soos wat plant, dier en mens suurstof nodig het - en daarom steun ons dit. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)

[Chairperson, when we agree to this Kyoto protocol, we affirm our commitment to addressing the threat of climate change. South Africa has certain obligations which will have to be honoured in terms of, inter alia, promotion of programmes and co-operation with regard to certain scientific research. There is no way that a South African or anyone in the world can still be begging, and waiting for a government of a specific country to do something about this problem. Every one of us has a responsibility to become involved.

South Africa also has advantages emanating from an international negotiation which will directly influence our economy and environment. South Africa will be able to participate in the activities of the CDM - Clean Development Mechanism - which offers developing countries the potential for more sustainable development, access to more investments in the country and an accelerated appropriation of advanced technology.

Our only concern lies precisely in that developed countries such as the USA, Australia and Russia either have not signed the agreement or are very tardy in terms of the aims of the agreement. We realise that in fact it is the developed countries that are affected negatively economically by the agreement, but if these great powers withdraw from this in totality, there would be little talk of benefit for the developing countries or the problem as a whole.

We hope that this debate with these countries that are not becoming entirely involved with the agreement will continue and that negotiations will not stop to get all countries involved and to control that the agreement is honoured by everyone. South Africa and the world desperately need this intervention, as plant, animal and human need oxygen - and therefore we support this.]

Mrs A M VERSFELD: Chairperson, last year was the second warmest on record, beaten only by 1998. The protection of the Antarctic continent and the great Southern Ocean surrounding it is important, not only for citizens of that continent, but also for all the citizens of the world, as impacts on Antarctica’s environment could have global effects. It is the last of the world’s unspoiled wildernesses. It drives the world’s climate and has a central role in regulating the earth’s environmental processes, including its atmospheric and oceanic systems, global tides and sea levels. The preservation and wellbeing of the Antarctic region is therefore vital in determining weather patterns in Southern Africa and the rest of the planet. Antarctica’s greatest value might be the information it has provided on the functioning and health of our planet. The discovery of the ozone hole above the Antarctic in 1985 alerted the world to the potentially dangerous changes in the environment caused by human activities. This led to the first measures being taken to control pollution and climate change.

Our only help and defence is the Kyoto climate treaty and the place to watch for global warming. The sensitive point is the Arctic. If the planet as a whole warms by one degree, the poles will warm by about three degrees. Ice now covers 15% less of the Arctic Ocean than it did 20 years ago. In the 1950s it was about 10 feet thick, now it is less than six feet thick. At the current rate of melting, in 50 years the northern ocean could be ice- free all summer, and that would be the end of polar bears. In fact, many creatures of the Arctic Ocean, not only polar bears, are already in trouble. The Arctic is changing faster than scientists can document. Every five years the world’s climatologists assess current knowledge about global warming. It erases any doubt about where this warming is coming from and warns that we ain’t seen nothing yet. If we keep spewing out greenhouse gases according to pattern, we will see three to ten times more warming over the 21st century.

The Kyoto protocol that was agreed to in Kyoto in 1997, after arduous negotiations, set out a legally binding emission reduction target of 5,2% for industrial countries.

Daarom is dit vandag vir my ontstellend om te besef dat die groter industriële en ontwikkelde lande soos Amerika, Japan en Australië - alhoewel Japan onlangs besluit het om die protokol te onderteken - hulle onttrek het aan die ooreenkoms. Hulle meen dat dit die Amerikaners en veral president Bush se regte sal aantas. Mens kan maar net dink watter regte mens sal hê as daar geen lewende wesens op die aarde oor is nie. Vir ons in die DA is dit van absolute belang dat ons hierdie Kyoto Protocol steun en daarom doen ons dit. [Applous.] (Translation of Afrikaans paragraph follows.)

[That is why today I find it disturbing to realise that the greater industrial and developed countries like America, Japan and Australia - although Japan decided recently to sign the protocol - have withdrawn from the agreement. They are of the opinion that it would infringe upon the rights of the Americans, and especially those of President Bush. One can only wonder what kind of rights one will have if there are no living creatures left on earth. For us in the DA it is of the utmost importance that we support this Kyoto Protocol, and that is why we are doing so. [Applause.]]

Mr V V Z WINDVOëL: Chairperson, let me in a second say that changes in our climate as a result of human activity pose a serious threat to humanity. Human beings are causing the release of carbon dioxide and other greenhouse gases into the atmosphere at rates much faster than those at which the earth can recycle them.

Whilst the concentrations of almost all greenhouse gases have been increasing since the Industrial Revolution, carbon dioxide has had the greatest effect on changing the climate. During the 1980s human beings released more than 5 billion tons of carbon dioxide into the atmosphere annually by burning fossil fuels such as coal, oil and natural gases for heat, transportation and electricity.

The question may be: Why should we worry about this? It is because the greenhouse gases we emit today remain in our atmosphere for decades and centuries. These emissions will increase even more dramatically as the developing world moves towards greater industrialisation. Greenhouse gases act like an insulator or blanket above the earth, keeping the heat in. Increasing the concentration of these gases in the atmosphere increases the atmosphere’s ability to block the escape of heat, which, in turn, further warms the surface of the earth. If this situation is allowed to continue unchecked, it will affect climate changes well into the future of our children and grandchildren.

One of the greatest concerns of those who are trying to reduce global warming is its negative effect on sea levels. A continuing increase in the earth’s temperature may result in the melting of icecaps, which, in turn, may lead to rising sea levels, which could put millions of people at risk of floods.

A lot of discussions have taken place over the impact of global warming. Some developed countries even went so far as disputing the negative effects of global warming and refusing to sign the protocol. Examples of those countries have already been mentioned. They include America and Australia, although they have withdrawn.

These greenhouse sceptics, as I call them, are merely trying to protect their own interests. Just like the tobacco companies that knew the reality of the addictive nature of nicotine and its link with cancer, but tried to conceal it through extensive campaigns, energy companies are also trying to discredit the link between greenhouse gases and global warming. The oil, coal, gas and mining industries stand to lose tremendously if the truth about global warming becomes globally accepted. South Africa and a growing number of African countries have accepted the truth about global warming. We have decided to accede to this protocol despite the fact that greenhouse emissions from Africa herself are practically negligible in global terms due to the continent’s low level of development and industrialisation.

The entire continent is estimated to be responsible for less than 7% of the global emission of such gases. Although some people may not know that Africa has taken the lead in implementing development programmes that will react to global environmental problems, particularly climate change, the smaller off-grid application of renewable generated electricity has been widely demonstrated in various regions in Africa.

Approximately 100000 small-scale solar PV systems have been installed throughout the region for various purposes. Ethanol production from local biomass has been developed within sugarcane industries in Southern Africa. In this case, Mali and Zimbabwe - some may think that Zimbabwe does not come forward with good things - are among countries experimenting with the use of multipurpose lower-input biomass feed stocks for the production of diesel substitutes. These examples show that Africa has firmly put the issue of climate change within the broader context of African development. In terms of the advantages that will accrue to our own country as a result of the accession, South Africa will be able to influence international negotiations to her own advantage and that of the SADC region. Economically we will also be able to seize opportunities.

In conclusion, the ANC supports the Kyoto Protocol. [Time expired.] [Applause.]

Debate concluded.

Report adopted in terms of section 65 of the Constitution.

The Council adjourned at 18:04. ____

            ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS

                        WEDNESDAY, 8 MAY 2002

ANNOUNCEMENTS:

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces:

1. The Speaker and the Chairperson:

 The Minister of Health submitted the Wetsontwerp op die Herroeping  van
 die Wet  op  die  Gesondheidskenkingsfonds  [W  20  -  2002]  (National
 Assembly - sec 75) to the Speaker and the Chairperson on  8  May  2002.
 This is the official translation  of  the  Health  Donations  Fund  Act
 Repeal Bill [B 20 - 2002] (National  Assembly  -  sec  75),  which  was
 introduced in the National Assembly by the Minister on 29 April 2002. National Council of Provinces:

1. The Chairperson:

 The following papers have been tabled  and  are  now  referred  to  the
 relevant committees as mentioned below:


 (1)    The following papers are referred to  the  Select  Committee  on
     Security and Constitutional Affairs:


     (a)     Strategic Plan of the Department of  Correctional  Services
          for 2002-2005.


     (b)     Strategic Plan of the  Independent  Complaints  Directorate
          for 2002-2005.


     (c)      Strategic  Plan  for  the  Department   of   Justice   and
          Constitutional Development for 2002-2005.
     (d)     Government Notice No R.37 published in  Government  Gazette
          No 23029 dated 18 January 2002, Magistrates Courts:  Amendment
          of the Rules of Court, made in terms of section 6 of the Rules
          Board for Courts of Law Act, 1985 (Act No 107 of 1985).


     (e)     Government Notice No R.38 published in  Government  Gazette
          No 23029 dated 18 January 2002, Magistrates Courts:  Amendment
          of the Rules of Court, made in terms of section 6 of the Rules
          Board for Courts of Law Act, 1985 (Act No 107 of 1985).


     (f)     Proclamation No R.9  published  in  Government  Gazette  No
          23119 dated 15 February 2002, Commencement of sections 10, 14,
          16 and 51, made  in  terms  of  the  Promotion  of  Access  to
          Information Act, 2000 (Act No 2 of 2000).


     (g)     Government Notice No R.187 published in Government  Gazette
          No 23119 dated 15 February  2002,  Regulations  regarding  the
          Promotion of Access to  Information,  made  in  terms  of  the
          Promotion of Access to Information Act,  2000  (Act  No  2  of
          2000).


     (h)     Government Notice No 292 published  in  Government  Gazette
          No 23176 dated 28 February 2002, Directives made in  terms  of
          section 7 of the Criminal Matters Amendment Act, 1998 (Act  No
          68 of 1998).


     (i)     Proclamation No R.15 published  in  Government  Gazette  No
          23149 dated 15 February 2002,  Commencement  of  the  Criminal
          Matters Amendment Act, 1998 (Act No 68 of 1998).


     (j)     Government Notice No R.213 published in Government  Gazette
          No 23149 dated 28 February 2002, Determination of remuneration
          payable to curator ad litem, made in terms of  section  29  of
          the Mental Health Act, 1973 (Act No 18 of 1973).
     (k)     Government Notice No  R.214  published  in  the  Government
          Gazette  No  23149  dated  28   February   2002,   Regulations
          prescribing the tariff of allowances payable to  psychiatrists
          who appear as  witnesses  in  court,  made  in  terms  of  the
          Criminal Procedure Act, 1977 (Act No 51 of 1977).


 (2)    The following papers are referred to  the  Select  Committee  on
     Finance for consideration and report:


     (a)     Agreement between the Government of the Republic  of  South
          Africa and the Government of the Republic  of  the  Seychelles
          for the Avoidance of Double Taxation  and  the  Prevention  of
          Fiscal Evasion with respect to  Taxes  on  Income,  tabled  in
          terms of section 231(2) of the Constitution, 1996.


     (b)     Explanatory Memorandum on  the  Double  Taxation  Agreement
          between the Republic of South Africa and the Republic  of  the
          Seychelles.


 (3)    The following papers are referred to  the  Select  Committee  on
     Public Services:


     (a)     Air Transport  Agreement  between  the  Government  of  the
          Republic of South Africa and the Government of the Republic of
          Germany,  tabled  in  terms   of   section   231(3)   of   the
          Constitution, 1996.


     (b)     Bilateral Air Services Agreement between the Government  of
          the Republic of South Africa and the Government of the Federal
          Republic of Brazil, tabled in terms of section 231(3)  of  the
          Constitution, 1996.
 (4)    The following paper is  referred  to  the  Select  Committee  on
     Labour and the Select Committee on Public Services:


     Annual  Report  and  Financial  Statements  of   the   Construction
     Education and  Training  Authority  for  2000-2001,  including  the
     Report of the Auditor General on the Financial Statements for 2000-
     2001 [RP 19-2002].


 (5)    The following papers are referred to  the  Select  Committee  on
     Finance:


     (a)     Proclamation No  17  published  in  Government  Gazette  No
          23169 dated 28 February 2002, Commencement  of  the  Financial
          Intelligence Centre Act, 2001 (Act No 38 of 2001).


     (b)     Proclamation R.19 published in Government Gazette No  23169
          dated 1 March 2002, Fixing of date on  which  sections  37(1),
          38(1) and 48(1) shall come into operation, made  in  terms  of
          the Revenue Laws Amendment Act, 2001 (Act No 19 of 2001).


     (c)     Government Notice No R.256 published in Government  Gazette
          No 23196 dated 1 March 2002, Determination interest  rate  for
          purposes of paragraph (a) of the definition of "official  rate
          of interest" in paragraph 1 of the Seventh Schedule,  made  in
          terms of the Income Tax Act, 1962 (Act No 58 of 1962).


     (d)     Proclamation Notice No 20 published in  Government  Gazette
          No 23207 dated 15 March 2002, Appointment of  members  of  the
          Special Courts for the hearing of income tax appeals, made  in
          terms of the Income Tax Act, 1962 (Act No 58 of 1962).

TABLINGS:

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces:

Papers:

1. The Minister of Education:

 Report of  the  Study  Team  on  the  Implementation  of  the  National
 Qualifications Framework.

1. The Minister of Finance:

 Annual Report and Financial  Statements  of  the  National  Development
 Agency for 2000-2001, including the Report of  the  Auditor-General  on
 the Financial Statements for 2000-2001 [RP 28-2002].

1. The Minister of Labour:

 Annual Report and Financial Statements of  the  Public  Service  Sector
 Education and Training Authority for 2000-2001, including the Financial
 Statements of Auditor-General on the  Financial  Statements  for  2000-
 2001.

                        THURSDAY, 9 MAY 2002

TABLINGS: National Assembly and National Council of Provinces:

Papers:

1. The Minister of Public Works:

 Memorandum by the Minister of Public Works setting out  particulars  of
 the Building Programme for 2002-2003 [RP 62-2002].