WEDNESDAY, 5 JUNE 2002 __

                PROCEEDINGS OF THE NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
                                ____

The House met at 14:01.

The Chairperson of Committees took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayers or meditation.

ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS - see col 000.

                         APPROPRIATION BILL

Debate on Vote No 8 - National Treasury [Intelligence]:

The MINISTER FOR INTELLIGENCE: Chairperson, members of Parliament, ladies and gentlemen, I hope that all members have their packages with them! [Laughter.] In presenting this second Budget Vote of the intelligence services since my appointment in 2001, I would like to preface it by acknowledging the debt of gratitude I owe to each and every member of the services for their patriotism, commitment and dedication.

I want to thank my long-suffering staff for having achieved the illusive goal of creating a 28-hour day. My gratitude also goes to the directors- general and their deputies for their support and commitment. I regard myself as lucky for having them serving with me.

My gratitude also goes to the entire oversight committee, those that we have now and those that have left the Chamber. I would like to say a special thank you to the past Chair, the Deputy Minister of Home Affairs. I want to thank her for her hard work, as well as congratulate her and wish her well. I have been down the same path, so she must just hang in there.

I just want to share a bit of intelligence with the member that I have cleared with Minister Buthelezi himself. I want to tell her to hang in there, because very soon Minister Buthelezi is going … [Laughter] … to be appointed Acting President again, as he is always called upon when the President and the Deputy President are out of the country. I got you there! [Laughter.]

She can look forward to this exciting time. It was an exciting time for me when I was in the Department of Home Affairs, because we got to run the country. I just want to urge her now to ensure that she does not make any forays into foreign lands with the army in tow.

However, it is during these times that the Deputy Minister of Home Affairs can tell the world that she is the Deputy to the President. She must just draw on the acting for dramatic purposes and she will see the wonder in their eyes. It will probably be the only time that she will be the Deputy to the President. To Siyabonga, wherever he is, I say congratulations. I hope we will work together well. [Applause.]

Coming to the subject of the debate, on 28 November 1987 the SAA Helderberg crashed off the coast of Mauritius, killing all 159 people on board. At the time, enquiries could not produce any explanation for the families and friends of those who died. The crash of the Helderberg has remained a conundrum that regularly rears its head, producing no explanation beyond that of mechanical failure. But for many the crash was just a South African mystery, like an earlier unsolved puzzle.

On a cold winter is evening on 11 July 1963, the South African special branch pounced on a group of unsuspecting and, in hindsight, amateur freedom fighters on Liliesleaf farm in Rivonia. The rest of the story is history. No mystery there, except for the people who were involved.

Right up to the time of their deaths, the hon Joe Slovo and hon Govan Mbeki had been passionately trying to solve the questions raised by their arrests that resulted in the Rivonia trial. One day I chanced upon these two elderly gentlemen deep in conversation in the old parliamentary dining room, sighing in bewilderment because they were trying to figure out who sold them out. In sheer exasperation, the hon Joe Slovo finally turned to hon Govan Mbeki and said: ``But, Govan, you have a good relationship with Kobie Coetzee in the Senate, why do you not ask him directly who sold us out?’’

We will never know if hon Mbeki asked Kobie Coetzee the question and whether hon Coetzee did give him the answer, if indeed he ever knew the answer. Hon members may wonder why I am asking these questions. The significance of these questions hon members will soon understand. Here is the significance: One of our least understood responsibilities is the classification of all secret information in the hands of the state.

Those who have been looking for answers relentlessly have come knocking on our doors and have been very disappointed to find that we are not ready to assist them yet, because, in truth, most of the secret documents were destroyed before 1994 and those that remain are owned by several departments.

To expedite and to respond to the now growing demand for access to these documents, we have set up a task team consisting of ourselves, the Department of Justice and Constitutional Development and the Department of Arts, Culture, Science and Technology. The task team will ensure that all secret documentation in the hands of the state is assessed and declassified in line with its status. We hope that we will be able to assist those who have a right and who seek to have access to this information, whose declassification date may have expired.

We cannot promise that they will find the answers beyond what we know about the SAA Helderberg crash and beyond what we know about the Rivonia trial. We do not promise that we might even find out who tipped off the security police, because, as I have indicated, unhappily so, a massive volume of state records has been destroyed. They were destroyed in 1980, and this was confirmed by the TRC.

What we do promise is that the task team will in the shortest time possible

• and we hope it will be within six months - detail the criteria that will guide the process of declassification of information and disclosure of that declassified information. In this process we will also be declassifying those documents that were used in the TRC, depending on the date and handing over of the final report of the TRC. We hope that this will answer any lingering suspicion that the TRC documents have come to an unhappy end.

This process is a bit too late for the hon Joe Slovo and the hon Govan Mbeki, but I am certain that it will be a treasure trove for a number of our people who are searching our past, a budding young Frederick Forsyth or some enterprising journalist.

The intelligence community operates in a very complex environment - complex because we are forever pushing back the boundaries of the old standards and norms of dealing with intelligence, in order to cope with the ever-changing environments of our time.

At every step, as we open up, we wonder if what we have done has been the correct thing to do. We open up and wonder if the space we have opened up is large enough for us to communicate and be understood by our clients, our audience, but small enough to protect what needs to be protected in an environment such as ours. This is the ever-present paradoxical reality that confronts us as we continue our interaction with the public, and members as representatives of that public.

Since the tabling of our Budget Vote of 2001, I am very pleased to announce that with the resources we had in hand, we have been able to make progress in a number of areas that we prioritised. Chief amongst these priorities is the enhancement of the capacity of the services. This is the stated objective of the Government as outlined by the President in his state of the nation address. This capacity is absolutely essential for the services to cope with the increased burden of their responsibilities, which range from crime intelligence, urban terrorism, right through to drug trafficking and economic intelligence.

As part of our commitment to upgrading our human resources, we have completed the restructuring of the academy. We closed down the academy last year in order to restructure, remodel and upgrade it. We have read of late in the media that the Western Cape’s perception of the closure was that the IA was incompetent. This is not the case. But then there is always something new from the Western Cape. We are grateful for the support we have received from the Ministry of the Public Service and Administration regarding the restructuring of the academy.

The restructuring is now complete and we give notice that we will be piloting a Bill through Parliament that will legally establish the academy as a section 3 public entity. We are very excited about these developments, because the new academy will provide the intelligence community with a loyal, competent and versatile cadreship that will serve the South African people with excellence, commitment and professionalism.

Last year I appointed a task team, which has now concluded its work. The task team discovered that weaknesses in our conditions of service had led to the weakening of the competitive edge of the services and their ability to attract and retain the best officers and support staff. We intend to request Cabinet to move on to new conditions of service that would be on a par with the quality of an intelligence officer employed by the services, the working environment and the value system of the security environment.

In addition, I have established a review commission to investigate and provide recommendations on the environment in which members of the intelligence services are working currently. The commission has already begun its work and is expected to conclude its investigation in August. Should any member of the House come across a smiling face anywhere in the country and wonder where it came from, he or she can be sure that that is my intelligence officer whose cover would then have been blown, no doubt, by the face that he wears - the uniform smile! [Interjections.]

Each member of the services has committed himself or herself to be the best he or she can be. I, on my part, have committed myself to providing the kind of environment that would allow them to thrive and, indeed, be the best they can be and the best that the country deserves.

Beyond having the right people in the right places within the services, the right equipment is of the utmost importance. In order for the services to attain a competitive advantage over foreign intelligence structures, as well as domestic counterintelligence threats, it is important that technological resources be applied in accordance with our needs. Furthermore, we are in an information age, which places an imperative on the security arms of the state to be steps ahead of the rest. The application of the resources I have talked about will enable us to counter a number of threats which, despite the relative stability we have achieved, could trigger destabilisation if not attended to.

Firstly, the sustainability of the current level of relatively favourable national security picture will depend, to a large extent, on the way the country’s economy continues to perform. The economy therefore remains one of the most important pillars of stability within the country in our view. The depreciating value of the rand at the end of last year against major currencies of the world worried us in the intelligence community. I have since been informed that I should not have been unduly concerned. It highlighted for us the need for intelligence to play a proactive role in the security of all national strategic initiatives, the derailment of which can result in the undermining of the Government’s goals. In this respect the intelligence community has begun to build the necessary capacity to monitor and advise on economic intelligence issues.

This will be one of our major investments for the next two years. We have to jealously guard what we have achieved. Our economy is doing well - that is what my counterparts tell me - and we are going to keep it that way.

Some of the challenges regarding the protection of South Africa’s economic interests within the domestic and international arena include threats related to economic and industrial espionage; serious economic and financial crimes, which include money-laundering; financial scams and deliberate acts to discredit or undermine foreign or domestic confidence in our economy.

On the political front, despite significant progress, there remains some concern with regard to stability in KwaZulu-Natal, that is the taxi violence arena, and gang-related violence in the Western Cape. On this I have been informed by my intelligence sources, somewhat belatedly, that we need to congratulate Marthinus van Schalkwyk. As the premier, we hope that he will be able to handle this province better. [Applause.] We have conveyed our concerns regarding the unlawful activities of students in tertiary institutions and we are very glad that Minister Nqakula has taken action.

Espionage activities have also increased considerably, demonstrating that foreign intelligence services regard South Africa as a priority in the developing world, especially in terms of the country’s role in and position on the continent and in Southern Africa as a region. As we become a player in the international arena, and as we become a people to be reckoned with, our security stakes rise. We have to ensure, therefore, that our security is at a level that is commensurate with that which we seek to protect.

The proliferation of private intelligence organisations also presents a security and potentially stability-related concern for us. This is owing to the potential for these organisations to be used by foreign intelligence services as fronts for espionage purposes; attempts to obtain access to classified information for their own purposes; illegal actions such as phone-tapping; and even the recruitment of former intelligence agencies. This is what underpins our determination to ensure restraint of trade for a period in respect of any intelligence officer.

In relation to crime, which remains one of the most immediate security concerns because of its negative impact on the quality of life of our people, we have now streamlined our support to the SAPS and the Scorpions and have recorded some major breakthroughs and successes in numerous cases. The full details of positive trends in crime reduction were recorded in 2001 in the National Crime Combating Strategy and were presented to us by the President in his state of the nation address. [Interjections.] Yes, Derek, that is from me.

The services are currently intensifying their co-operation with all law- enforcement and security agencies to tighten the flow of intelligence relating to crime. In addition, in order to improve the quality of information, our co-ordinating structure, Nicoc, is strengthening its production system and is in the process of redefining its client feedback mechanism. As part of strengthening this structure, I have appointed a new deputy co-ordinator. We are continuously working on our co-operation with the law-enforcement apparatus, and the Minister of Safety and Security, I hope, and I are very happy with the progress that we are making. Mr Nqakula can bear me out.

We will be embarking on a process of reviewing our White Paper. The White Paper on Intelligence was written and adopted shortly after we came into government. There is now a need to update this in view of developments in South Africa as well as in the world. A clear need was identified to elaborate further on the concept of human security, food security and environmental security. We have also learnt a great deal.

Last year at about this time, standing on this podium, I was urging my services to move away from the downbeat intelligence officer identifiable by the holes in his soles. I had hardly shut my big mouth when the very lack of human capacity in the United States was identified as one of the failures that might have led to the fateful September 11. We have discovered that the integrity of our public institutions is being compromised through the disregard for document, physical and IT security.

The recent break-ins at Denel and, horror of horrors, at the offices of the Auditor-General in Pretoria indicate that we need to go out with nothing less than evangelical fervour to preach on the need to upgrade our information security. Because it is part of our responsibility to safeguard our technological and economic advances, every break-in into a state department or parastatal, with its intended theft of software, is a nightmare for us. We give notice, therefore, that we intend to ensure that the minimum information security standard that we make available to Cabinet is made an enforceable regulation for all strategic institutions.

The protection of Government information and the regulation of its release to the citizenry are fundamental to good governance. We have therefore recommended the appointment of a security manager for every department and public entity in order to remedy the weakness that we have identified. At the same time, we have ordered a complete and comprehensive review of the security of executive members of Government, so that we can ensure that the embarrassment of an unwelcome, brandy-guzzling visitor at Genadendal is put to an end.

One of the priorities we had set ourselves last year was to restructure the Ministry to ensure that we can sharpen our efficiency so that we can be of better service to our clients. We created two small units in the Ministry, one to give support to the Presidency and the other one to Government clients. A great deal of media attention has been given to the support we provide to the Presidency. The work of these units has had a very positive impact on the promotion of peace and security on the continent and the strengthening of interdepartmental relations.

For us this could not have come at a better time, for an examination of all our present security concerns reveal that the intelligence services increasingly have to deal with new threats. The focus of the services the world over changes to suit the need created by the vulnerabilities of the time. For us in Africa, one of our great vulnerabilities is conflict - conflict over scarce resources made more scant by the conflict itself, and a conflict that other parties outside of ourselves as Africans are only too happy to see escalate.

Within the Sass we have resolved that we can turn ourselves into agents for good. We can give our services to ensure that we can turn the tide for good on our continent. We have the capacity and the commitment to protect ourselves against the scourge of conflict. We can detect it and give early warning should it raise its ugly head, and we have the capacity to make a difference in any attempt at conflict resolution. This country has benefited from the efforts on the intelligence community, leading the way to ending our own conflict. It ushered in an era in which intelligence could direct its enormous resources for good. The attack on the United States clearly demonstrated that the conventional threats of the previous world order, which were generally associated with governments acting in accordance with well-understood rules of engagement, which could also be detected by conventional intelligence capacities, are steadily being replaced by emerging new threats. These new threats, by contrast, are mostly nongovernmental, nonconventional, dynamic, random and nonlinear, without any constraints and completely unpredictable.

These new threats are at present also impossible to deal with in any small units. They are often asymmetric in nature in that they arise from unconventional sources and wield influence and have impact disproportionate to their actual strength and capacity. It is therefore important for us to understand that as we live in an increasingly globalising world, we are actually also talking about the globalisation of problems and terrorism. In other words, as the world shrinks into a global village, the security problems of countries beyond our borders become our own security problems. The terrorism that was visited upon the people of the United States is the same terrorism that was visited upon the people of Tanzania and Kenya in

1. This means that our security has to take this greater problem into account.

Finally, the marginal adjustment to our baseline allocation from the Minister of Finance, for which we are grateful, will help us achieve some of our goals. The funds will help us to advance our interests and goals further by increasing the presence of our representatives abroad, recruiting skilled personnel and expanding the range of our products and clients.

It is important that South Africans understand that the absence of any threat to their national security is the result of continuous hard work by members of the services. The debates raging in the United States about whether the services, the CIA in particular, had given sufficient warning to prevent the September 11 attack are very instructive for us, because they underline the human paradox that it is after such a major calamity such as the one that happened in the United States that serious attention is paid to a pivotal aspect of normal democracy, namely security, which is mundane and taken for granted, but the compromising of which can be fatal.

It is in this context that in the tabling of this budget I take the opportunity to pay a special tribute and to congratulate all the members of my services for their dedication and their diligence. I appreciate their work. We sleep easy at night because they watch over all of us.

I would like to take this opportunity also to honour all those who have died, unknown and unthanked, in the services. These would range from Zakithi to Joe Mababi, from Muziwendoda Mdluli and Phumla Nkala.

Further, as we develop a total concept of national security, we want to bring to members’ attention the aspect of members’ personal security. We can ensure that members of Parliament are protected physically from any threat that might come their way, but finally we want to stress that their personal protection in their most intimate engagement depends on each individual member. That is why we have distributed these protective items as a memento to members. We are distributing condoms throughout South Africa to say that we, the clever people in the Public Service, do it under cover. We urge members to be patriotic. We urge them to abstain. If they cannot abstain, they must be faithful. If they cannot be faithful, they must try to be patriotic. But finally, please, fly the South African flag! [Applause.]

I was informed - this is reliable intelligence - that some of us here might not fly at full mast. [Laughter.] Fly at full mast, half mast or at but just fly the South African flag! [Laughter.] [Applause.]

Dr S C CWELE: Chairperson, if it looks as if I am flying at half mast or if I am a little dopey, it is not because of the food at Parliament or because of the breakfast meeting we had with the Minister, it is purely because of the flu I have. Intelligence is the first line of defence of every country. It is the basic instrument that the Government has to anticipate risk in the military, political, economic and social spheres. Briefly defined, intelligence is a timely truth well told. In many instances rogue states have used intelligence for party-political interests, resulting in the creation of autocratic regimes.

Very early in our democratic dispensation, the people of South Africa left nothing to chance in this regard. Through this Parliament they made sure that pillars of democratic practise were built. Transparency and accountability are among these pillars. Establishing a parliamentary oversight mechanism that included the Joint Standing Committee on Intelligence was part of this firm foundation for good, democratic governance.

In Africa, parliamentary oversight on intelligence is unique to South Africa. The JSCI exists to ensure that intelligence services do not only account to the executive, but also to the public through Parliament. We do our work with integrity and according to the law.

Members of the JSCI, however, are not spies, as some people purport in the corridors. We are not members of the intelligence services, but we are members of Parliament. National intelligence is neither a domain nor a private asset of any political party. On the contrary, it is a national asset driven by national interests and priorities.

Constant monitoring of intelligence services is the national duty of those who want to uphold and nurture our freedom. The office of Judge Gordhan ensures that the privacy of South Africans is not unduly invaded unless one is involved in criminal activities.

Throughout the democratic world, mechanisms for checks and balances on intelligence services and agencies are being established. The law also gives this civilian monitoring responsibility in South Africa to the Office of the Inspector-General for Intelligence. Consequently, the Office of the Inspector-General came off the ground in 1996. This office is one of the instruments of oversight designed to strengthen the offices of the Ministers who have intelligence responsibilities. Unfortunately, the Inspector-General for Intelligence has since resigned, earlier this year. The committee will soon be involved in initiating the process of appointing a new Inspector-General, which will start with advertising for nominations.

The Office of the Auditor-General has done tremendous work in ensuring that financial policies are adhered to by the services. The JCSI, as prescribed by law, receive reports from the Auditor-General on secret service accounts. These reports raise matters of concern on a number of financial management issues. The committee always co-operates with the Auditor- General to ensure that these matters are addressed and corrected without delay.

Gone are the days when intelligence communities were laws unto themselves. They have to account for all their activities. The committee and the Office of the Auditor-General assures the public that each rand and cent spent yields measurable outcomes. South African intelligence services evolved in the twentieth century from being the militarised arm of the state to being a demilitarised state department. In our quest to demilitarise and depoliticise the intelligence services, we have to deal with the mindset and fixation of promotion of interest of political parties in power.

The process of integrating and transforming the intelligence services, on the whole, was achieved with the utmost success thanks to the managers of the intelligence community sitting up there in the gallery, and the Ministers responsible. I also commend the committee for the role it plays in this process. The question of putting national interests first, before party-political interests, is most probably unique to the JSCI in this Parliament. Thanks to my predecessor, the Minister, Nosiviwe and others, who played their part to build this understanding amongst our ourselves, I am confident that no single individual could manage to abuse the committee for party-political point-scoring. The committee congratulates the management of intelligence services for showing leadership and being able to respond to the extraordinary demands that have been placed on them.

As things stand, there is a new focus, a new orientation. The intelligence services’ priorities and deployment of their resources are focused on creating more opportunities for citizens to lead a stable and better life. As a result, the intelligence services have won legitimacy and credibility among our people.

The management has industriously transformed and instilled professionalism in the services. They are now better poised to move from transformation to effective and efficient service delivery.

South Africa exists in the global village, where interests based on connections and interconnection exist. Each nation of the world community tries to make its policies succeed, in order that its citizens may be better off. For the state to best serve its people, it has to be able to predict future actions and activity of other state organisations, as we compete over limited resources to fight poverty.

In addition, the state has to have the ability to deal with the rogue elements within and outside the country’s borders that, in their activities, will leave the rest of our people worse off. It is in this light that there is a need for a system to analyse trends and patterns that are expected to emerge, and predict their impact on our national interest. This, in turn, facilitates speedy and efficient implementation of policy decisions.

South Africa is becoming the centre of international activities. There is no doubt that this is not because of the soft heart of those who convene these international forums. We are reaping the fruits of being a stable society. This stability should be accorded to the positive results brought about by the excellent leadership and professional way that intelligence activities are undertaken. The culture that we have adopted, we hope, will contribute positively in ensuring that Nepad also becomes a success. In the international arena there are changes in focus from the adversarial Cold War to a liberalised intelligence environment. This has been the feature since 1990. Unfortunately, new threats continue to exist and vary in nature. The global threat of terrorism poses new challenges. This was made clear by the September 11 attacks in the United States of America, as well as the continuing tensions in the Middle East and South Asia.

After the September 11 attacks the world outlook on intelligence and security changed. The aftermath of it all has led to war and biological warfare. We, as South Africans, are fortunate in that we enjoy relative stability and trust with our neighbours in the region. This is so, because the intelligence services have worked beyond their call of duty.

The global threat caused by increasing the income gap between the rich and the poor poses tremendous challenges to our economic competitiveness and to world trade. We are equally very concerned with political and socioeconomic developments in Africa and in SADC in particular. Information received from intelligence services has made us wiser in our approach to these developments. Without security, peace, stability and an environment conducive to growth and investment, the development objectives of our country remain a wishful dream, a situation which we cannot afford. All these challenges demand more resources for our intelligence services.

The budget which we are debating today relates to the functioning of the National Intelligence Agency, NIA, and the SA Secret Service, Sass. The committee has put to the intelligence services that accountability is not only the mere approval of budgets, it is not about balancing rands and cents, but about what they are able to put to it. The South African public should be assured that they are getting value for money.

The committee strives to strike a balance between secrecy and transparency when dealing with intelligence issues. However, the committee will not allow a veil of secrecy to cover issues of clear mismanagement, maladministration or even abuse by intelligence services. Fortunately we have not seen any of this so far.

A policy has a arisen within this Parliament in the debate as to which committee of Parliament has oversight over the financial management of the services. Two committees of Parliament, the JSCI and Scopa, have been very proactive in this regard and will soon be tabling recommendations to Parliament to resolve this issue.

In conclusion, our vision as a legislature is to build a society free of prejudice in any form among the people of South Africa. Intelligence services are showing a willingness to work with us in the realisation of this vision. The excellent work of the intelligence services continues to frustrate criminals. They are flushing criminals out of South Africa.

Intelligence services, however, have produced, as the Minister has said, a document on minimum information security standards. This document proposes measures on how to deal with information in state departments and in Parliament. We are collectively guilty of not attaching any degree of seriousness to this document. This has resulted in unintended leakages of information.

Members will remember that after they got their laptops, the minute they got into an aeroplane, they would open the laptop with all the information, which may include important state information. When we send members abroad, the first thing they do in the aeroplane is to read their speeches without even checking who is looking. For this reason we urge Parliament to provide this training for members of Parliament in general.

In conclusion, in a nutshell, the intelligence community of South Africa is contributing positively to the stability of our continent and the rest of the world. We must support this Budget Vote. [Applause.]

Brig Gen P J SCHALKWYK: Mr Chairperson, hon Minister, hon members, Black September, 11 September in the year 2001, is now generally called the day of infamy. Never has the United States been taken so unaware since its Pacific fleet was surprised and annihilated by Japan at Pearl Harbour during the Second World War. And why? Because, somewhere along the line, their intelligence structures failed them. This resulted in negative ramifications all over the world.

There are many examples of events that happened either because of good intelligence or because of bad intelligence. I quote the Black September case as it is one of the most recent and it is an example of what can happen if one’s intelligence fails one. Questions the Americans asked were: How could this happen to us in this day and age? How was it possible that three commercial aircraft on routine flights became flying missiles to destroy the two towers of the World Trade Centre and severely damage the mighty Pentagon? Where were the world-renowned CIA, the FBI and the DIA? Now they are asking whether their government did enough to protect them. Do we have to put the same question to our Government? But most disturbing is the threat and the fear that another disastrous terrorist attack can be expected and the US does not know what sort of attack that will be, when and where. We in South Africa have the hope that we are not on the list of targets, but how sure can we be? We may not switch off.

Then there is this conflict in the Middle East between Israel and the Palestinians. What has now become a very relevant and worrying factor is the increase in incidents of suicide bombers.

We wonder why we should be worried about their problems. They are so far away from us and from all of us in this House. But we know that in South Africa there are supporters of both sides. Our intelligence must take note of that.

Lastly, and of most importance to us, is the essentiality of effective crime intelligence agencies. That is our biggest threat at the moment. Our citizens are not sure whether the Government can cope with the incidents of violent crime, corruption and fraud. We appreciate what they are achieving and we thank them for it. But, can we be 100% sure that they are able to counter all the threats? What we expect from our various intelligence agencies - and there are quite a number of them - are efficiency, integrity, credibility, impartiality, sound judgment and good partnership with other agencies.

Finally, I would just like to comment that I am a newcomer in the Joint Standing Committee on Intelligence. After an extensive exercise of security clearance, I was appointed to the committee. I was not sure whether I had been relegated or elevated. I would like to say to the hon the Minister and the hon chairperson that I can honestly say that I have been elevated. I can also say that the experience that I have had so far is that of excellence. [Applause.]

Mr M I SCOTT: Chairperson, hon Minister for Intelligence, hon members, I would like to congratulate our new chairperson, Dr Siyabonga Cwele. It is an honour to participate in this important budget debate. This is a debate about an important issue that is like an insurance policy for our society. Intelligence, today, is a backbone for our survival and for the survival of any nation. We cannot do without it.

Today, we are living in a global village where crime has taken on transnational dimensions. More than 60% of crime committed in this country is organised crime. Organised crime costs this country billions of rands in our economy and causes disorganisation of our communities. It is a serious threat to the wellbeing of our people and has a serious social impact.

The organised crime syndicates operate in the boardrooms, cities, ports, townships and everywhere. It is important to congratulate the police crime intelligence division, the Scorpions and the National Intelligence Agency for their successes in the fight against crime. They have started, surely, to turn the heat on organised syndicates and some petty criminals. A number of syndicate members are still on the loose out there. A lot still needs to be done, and we should learn from our successes and failures that we have encountered so far.

Police crime intelligence is the key in the fight against crime. One of the challenges within the SA Police Service is to create a culture of acknowledging the importance of the collection of intelligence when they do their work, and all the time. We need to ask ourselves whether intelligence agencies or police intelligence are properly structured or organised to deliver a powerful blow to crime.

We need to ask ourselves whether the agencies or services are proactive, reactive or operate on an ad hoc basis when dealing with crime. We need to pay attention to some of these pertinent questions so as to make sure that there is no duplication in the spending of resources. With police intelligence, we need to build a united and focused machinery that is definitely ready to grow from strength to strength over time.

We should not allow unnecessary or destructive competition within the service itself. Crime intelligence in South Africa is still young. It should not embark on unnecessary ventures. A new approach in this fight is necessary. We have police crime intelligence, the Scorpions and the National Intelligence Agency. They are all doing something in the fight against organised crime. We need to see more co-ordination in this fight.

They should work towards a deliberate strategic plan based on co- operation, the pulling together of resources and pursued structured projects. A forum of these three agencies should be set up or be considered to ensure that they are proactive and work ahead of the syndicates with the intention of eliminating them from their business. The interministerial security committee should ensure that there is co-operation, which is necessary for the achievement of this strategic objective.

The Scorpions do not have the intelligence capacity, but they can receive information or support from the police and NIA in carrying out their activities. They should move to reduce the number of syndicates that are operational in South Africa. They should make South Africa unattractive for international crime syndicates and make locals realise that crime will never pay and is not good business.

These forums can operate at national and provincial level. They need to begin to send a clear message to these syndicates that they can no longer operate with impunity, and that South Africa is ready to defend its integrity. More efforts should be done to sharpen, strengthen and empower crime intelligence, because they are at the core of defeating crime in the long run.

Police station-based intelligence capacity is a good step in the right direction, but we still need to look at resourcing them both in terms of human resources and enabling them to deal effectively with crime electronically. Most successful operations against crime in this country have been intelligence-driven. A lot of training and education should be provided to other members of the SAPS to change the culture of reporting, to provide data to the intelligence capacity at police station level.

The Scorpions were designed to deal with organised crime. To this end, the intelligence information is important if they are to succeed in the long term. The setting up of short-term targets is not going to be sustainable in the long term. We still have to look at whether they need to develop an intelligence capacity or whether there should be some relationship with the National Intelligence Agency to provide the necessary support in the eradication of crime.

The Scorpions should accept that in order to cut all important lines in organised crime projects or organisations, some of the projects will take a while in terms of investigations. The intended result should be to work deliberately on collapsing all the lines. We can begin to have serious measurable results in the elimination of crime in our country. Local and international experience has proven that there are no shortcuts in the fight against organised crime. The operations will have to be intelligence- driven if they are to succeed.

As NIA is focused on strategic intelligence, we are faced with a serious threat in this country, and that is crime. They should consider setting up a dedicated unit to focus on crime and to work with both the police and the Scorpions. In this area there is a gap because the Scorpions do not play the role of intelligence-gathering and at the same time they need every support in dealing with organised crime, terrorism and corruption.

I would like to emphasise the point that training and education has to be an ongoing exercise. This will ensure that the agencies produce an effective and efficient service and a quality product for their clients. The committee has started to develop an interest in the operations of the Scorpions, should they need an intelligence capacity. This capacity will have to be regulated.

Lastly, we commend the working relationship of our agencies with other agencies in the SADC region. In conclusion, we support this Budget Vote.

Mr E T FERREIRA: Mr Chairperson, according to the budget information released by the Minister of Finance, the combined secret services budget will amount to R1,3 billion in this financial year, which is an increase of more than 30% from the previous financial year. About R868 million of the allocation is set aside for the National Intelligence Agency.

Unfortunately, the IFP is not in a position to make a judgment on the increase in the budget allocation. Neither are we in a position to make a meaningful contribution to this debate today.

The reason for our inability to draw conclusions from the debate or to criticise or support the budget figures is simple. The fact of the matter is that the IFP has not been represented on the Joint Standing Committee on Intelligence for more than 10 months. Following the resignation of our representative on the committee, Prof Ndabandaba, last year to become MEC for Education in the KwaZulu-Natal provincial government, the Chief Whip of the IFP informed the chairperson of the committee on 20 August 2001 that the IFP was nominating Mr M J Bhengu as the party’s representative on the committee.

Notwithstanding numerous follow-up letters from our Chief Whip to the chairperson, the Minister for Intelligence and the Speaker of this House, Mr Bhengu has not been appointed to the committee to date. It may be that the delay in appointing Mr Bhengu has been the result of an administrative mistake. We understand that such problems may from time to time occur, but the IFP deplores the manner in which this entire saga has been handled.

In our view - and hon members should understand that we are not making a party-political point here - the real problem lies in the intense process of interrogation and personal scrutiny that prospective members of the committee are subjected to. When the elected representatives of the people become members of Parliament, they must swear or affirm faithfulness to the Republic of South Africa and obedience to the Constitution, and I quote:

I swear/solemnly affirm that I will be faithful to the Republic of South Africa and will obey, respect and uphold the Constitution and all other laws of the Republic, and I solemnly promise to perform my functions as a member to the best of my ability.

Is it therefore correct that members are subjected to a form of third- degree interrogation? Is the oath we took being negated? Hon members must decide what the appropriate answers to these questions are.

I would like to ask the hon the Minister for Intelligence the following questions: Were the ANC, DP, New NP and other members of the Joint Standing Committee on Intelligence subjected, as Mr Bhengu was, to this type of intense and intensive process of personal investigation? Were all the members subjected to lie-detector tests like Mr Bhengu? Did all the other members have to wait for almost a year for their appointments? If not, why is the IFP being singled out for special attention?

I have established without any doubt whatsoever that some members of the current intelligence committee have not been subjected to lie detector tests like our man has been.

The National Intelligence Agency plays a vital role in the stability and security of South Africa. If this guardian of our democracy takes such a long time to finalise a trivial matter, how safe can our citizens feel at night?

To this very day, the IFP still does not have a representative on the Joint Standing Committee on Intelligence. We will not offer a judgment on the budget - we cannot - but we will request that the appointment of our representative on the committee be dealt with as a matter of extreme urgency. Our latest news, on the positive side, is that the saga is about to be finalised soon - whatever that may mean after 10 months.

In conclusion, we in the IFP ask the question: Was the treatment of our proposed representative the result of gross negligence or was it intentional? We sincerely hope it was not the latter.

Mrs M E OLCKERS: Chairperson, according the report to the JSCI, the intelligence services has a very busy year since our last debate. Although their budgets have been increased, a few problem areas need to be highlighted in relation to their budgets if we are to be proactive.

One of the issues that kept Sars and the NIA very busy was the many special events that South Africa had been and will be hosting, like the many congresses, workshops, etc. Special events that are coming up include, inter alia, the World Economic Forum, the African Union summit, Pan- Commonwealth Forum, European Union, African Pacific Countries, Science and Technology Dialogue Forum and the World Summit on Sustainable Development. Many thousands of rands have to be spent on these preparations, monitoring the safety of the delegates at these events. It is not always possible to budget in detail for these functions.

Military intelligence, for instance, has a big task in supplying intelligence on countries where we have or we are going to have peacekeeping operations. Definite and exact information is needed before the troops are deployed. Also, during deployment, information on the landscape - climate, oceans, installations, etc - is needed.

Sars has received more money in the budget, but at present we still have less than half of our foreign missions because of a lack of funds. This is an unacceptable situation. Because of the rand-dollar exchange rate, it is a very costly exercise to set up and maintain foreign offices. Although the Department of Foreign Affairs was assisted in counteracting this situation, Sars did not receive comparable treatment from the Treasury. Operations, operatives, technology and cost of living are all contributing factors to the financial difficulties Sars faces. We need to be sensitive to this problem facing our country. I would like to congratulate Sars on doing a good job under difficult circumstances. [Applause.]

At the NIA, Sars and crime intelligence, asset management remains an annual problem. Asset management is not really possible at the moment, because a reliable asset database is still not fully available. This situation is also unacceptable after seven years of managing these services.

The use of consultants in the Public Service is an issue that needs urgent attention. We thank Minister Fraser-Moleketi for stating that she is addressing this unacceptable situation. The state does not have the finances to carry what can almost be called a second civil service. Structural, managerial and affirmative action changes, missions and visions should by now be almost in place, so that real performance can be achieved. Restructuring must not be a constant excuse for incompetence, be that in management, dedication of staff or just poor service.

It is unacceptable, for instance, to appoint consultants to do the job of compiling a database of assets. There are many competent people who could barcode most of the assets and then put the information on a computer. To make things worse, when one group of consultants did not perform after two years, another group was employed to do the job. Not much has happened regarding this situation and it should receive urgent attention.

Members on suspension also cost a lot of money. It is just not good enough that there are members of NIA who have been on suspension since 1999. Their cost to NIA during the past year has been in excess of R2,3 million. The process of disciplinary hearings takes far too long and also keeps on being postponed. The question is, why? Is it a lack of evidence, lack of staff or just bad management and poor planning? The Kubu case is a case in point.

We must guard against anybody or any department becoming so called ``untouchable’’. When someone has the idea that he or she is untouchable, transparency and honesty usually suffer, and this could easily happen in intelligence because of the nature of their work.

The members of the Joint Standing Committee on Intelligence are under oath of confidentiality. We have to be the oversight committee on intelligence and monitor the intelligence services on behalf of Parliament. Therefore, the JSCI needs to be sure that whatever information the services present to us is the truth, and nothing else. If, however, there is a breakdown of trust in an individual or a section of the services, then there is real danger and trouble for the integrity of JSCI in the oversight role for Parliament. Top management of such various services would have to take drastic action when such a situation is identified.

I see a have a few seconds left.

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Five! Mrs M E OLCKERS: Oh! Okay, then I will leave the rest. I would like to thank the hon the Minister for Intelligence for the quiet but dynamic way she is handling the portfolio. It is clear to anyone involved in the Ministry and the various services that there is a new vibe and dedication passed from the Minister to her department.

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Hon member, your time has expired.

Mrs M E OLCKERS: May I have one more? [Laughter.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Your time has expired, hon member.

Mrs M E OLCKERS: I would like to thank our previous chairperson, the hon the Deputy Minister Mapisa-Nqakula, for her leadership, her inspiration, her fairness and friendship. Nobody is irreplaceable, but her leaving has left a huge gap in the JSCI and in my heart. [Time expired.] [Applause.]

Ms S C VAN DER MERWE: Chairperson, hon Minister, hon members, it is in the nature of humankind that one learns from one’s mistakes. Sadly, it is often a great tragedy that teaches us important lessons and allows us to adapt to a changing world environment and to develop our human potential.

This was the case with the lessons we learnt as a country from the hurt and horror of the apartheid years, and also what we learnt as a global community from the September 11 terrorist attack on the United States, which other speakers have referred to.

In 1994 the democratic Government set about transforming the intelligence services from agents of oppression to effective servants of the community, with a capacity to participate in the reconstruction and development of our country. The new Government brought with it its own democratic principles of openness and a commitment to a just and free society.

Incorporating these principles of openness and applying them to intelligence services was a particularly challenging task because of the nature of the work, but we were able to learn from the mistakes of the past. Amongst other things, the service has learnt the importance of co- ordinating the activities of the services to achieve the most effective and efficient production of intelligence material for the protection of the citizens of the country.

This, in some measure, is owing to the experiences of operations in the predemocratic South Africa that went wrong because one agency was not aware of the activities of another. And to address this issue in 1994, the National Strategic Intelligence Act established, amongst other things, the National Intelligence Co-ordinating Committee, or Nicoc, as we know it.

Considering the context then, in 1994, at the time of South Africa’s independence and the current global security situation, it is clear that the drafters of the legislation were, indeed, forward-looking in the establishment of Nicoc, the National Intelligence Co-ordinating Committee. It is now, some years later, that other intelligence communities are becoming aware of the shortcomings that exist in many countries with the lack of co-ordination in intelligence.

In the Cold War world the need-to-know principle was the basis of much thinking in the intelligence community. This was also true of predemocratic South Africa. Now, in a different world, with the imperative for national security of the promotion of peace and human security, the emphasis of intelligence-gathering shifts from the Silo system of the past to one of co- operation between agencies of government and, indeed, between governments. Our Nicoc serves this purpose.

Headed by Jeff Maqetuka as co-ordinator, the vision of Nicoc is to be the key link between the intelligence community and the policy-makers, through the provision of co-ordinated national strategic intelligence.

Its job is to analyse the intelligence gathered by the civilian, defence and police services and interpret this material, package it into a product and distribute it to the appropriate clients, Government being the main client. This product allows Government to plan and take steps to deal with any threat or potential threat against the country and its citizens.

One of the main reasons advanced for the failure of the United States security services to prevent the September 11 terrorist attack was, indeed, the lack of co-ordination between government agencies. Hearings are currently underway in the United States to unravel the events leading up to the attacks and to ascertain whether there was something they could have done differently to prevent the attacks.

It is reported in Time this week that an FBI agent had picked up information relating to a person with known links to terrorist organisations. This person had arrived at a flight school in Minneapolis in the United States in August 2001 and asked for instruction in how to fly a Boeing 737. He was arrested, but later released and the agent is reported as having given evidence that the FBI team failed to link up with the other federal agencies, which is the CIA, who could have gathered more intelligence from the person in question. The information was not co- ordinated with other information to build a picture of the potential threat.

Another lesson learnt from the events, which was also highlighted in subsequent analyses of these events, was the importance of the human intelligence-gathering capabilities of the services. The Minister has made reference to this. Much reliance is being placed in recent years on the hitech side of intelligence-gathering - sophisticated satellite interception technology and futuristic type of equipment - and the usefulness of human intelligence-gathering has been underplayed. There is no substitute for people and while the communication technology is absolutely necessary in the modern world, one still needs people to collect information and, more importantly, to analyse the information to make sense of it. Our people, with their skills and their commitment, are therefore our most valuable asset.

In a statement of values of the organisation, Nicoc sets out its core values requiring of its officers the highest degree of loyalty, professional integrity, objectivity, mutual trust and respect in the conduct of their duties. These are the qualities needed in the officers of the intelligence services. They do not have an easy job and much is demanded of them. I believe we have a fine core of officers who serve our country with distinction. We need them to know that they have our respect and our trust. We need to nurture and develop those qualities in our existing staff and to develop them in our new appointees.

Nicoc is, of course, not a perfect organisation. They have indicated to us in the joint standing committee some of the difficulties they experience and the methods they will be employing to address these difficulties. A workshop is planned for later this month to deal with the problems and find solutions. We as an oversight committee will continue to monitor these developments, so that Nicoc can perform its duties timeously, effectively and efficiently.

The provincial intelligence co-ordinating committees need special attention. The joint standing committee has received reports on the activities of both the national and provincial bodies, and will continue to engage with these committees to keep appraised of developments in the co- ordination structures.

However, what we have is a commitment to effective co-ordination from all our services. We have a co-ordinating structure that is in place and functioning well. We have a team of officers who possess the qualities required of them to fulfil their duties. This is the basis of the delivery of an accurate and effective intelligence product that will serve the best interests of our people. We in the oversight committee will support them in their efforts, as we will keep a watch over the implementation of their mandate in balancing the need for secrecy with transparency. [Applause.]

Mr S ABRAM: Chairperson, I want to start off by paying tribute to the outgoing chairperson of the JSCI. May I just say to the hon the Minister of Intelligence that I note that she has collected a little bit of snow on her head. [Laughter.] I want to apologise to the hon the Minister, because we were responsible for her collecting that snow. I am not trying to hide mine by wearing a black hat! [Laughter.]

I need to emphasise that the hon former chairperson, with her dedication and ability, welded this committee, the JSCI, into what I would term one of the best performing committees. [Applause.] I am very glad and fortunate that in all three committees in which I serve, I have excellent chairpersons who try to reach decisions by consensus, as opposed to forcing a vote.

I also want to congratulate our new chairperson, whom I believe is going to carry this tradition further. May I also then congratulate all those officers of our intelligence agencies, those men and women on whom rest a very heavy burden of securing the future stability of our country and all her people. May I just tell them that we depend upon them for the future sustenance of all our people, and we know that they will not fail us.

Looking at the budget of the CIA, we were informed when we were there last year that it was in the order of US$30 billion for 1999-2000. And after the failure of the CIA to detect what was going to happen in September, they were given an additional US$8 billion. That is like trying to reach a destination on a bicycle for us with R1,3 million, as against a superjet on which the US intelligence agencies can travel.

We seriously need to see that our intelligence agencies are adequately equipped to carry out the very difficult tasks that they have to carry out. In his speech, the chairperson of the JSCI said, and I quote:

Intelligence is a basic instrument with which a government has to anticipate risks, whether military, political, economic or social. Briefly defined, intelligence is timely truth well told.

I would like to say that intelligence is more than that. It is a mission, a skill and, most importantly, a national capability. The layman’s view of intelligence is limited to the popular concept of spying, but this is merely a facet of their work. Intelligence organisations are primarily concerned with the collection and evaluation of information and are not the dirty-tricks departments the media like to portray.

In reality, intelligence organisations serve governments and have a dual function in this regard. Firstly, intelligence helps policy-makers to be effective by providing them with the necessary foresight to plan ahead or carry out their decisions. Secondly, it protects the vital interests of a country.

Intelligence activities can be divided into two broad categories, namely positive intelligence and counterintelligence. [Time expired.] [Applause.]

Mr L M GREEN: Chairperson, hon Ministers and members, allow me to pay tribute to the outgoing chairperson of the JSCI for a job well done. Ms Mapisa-Nqakula has actually succeeded in cementing the committee to such an extent that we worked as a unit, and the good work done by the previous chairperson is now being inherited by our present chairperson, Dr Cwele.

Since the 11 September attack on the US, the world has seemingly become a less secure place and the vital role of the intelligence services cannot be emphasised more today. Countries around the globe have come to realise that conventional warfare and strategies are losing ground to more unpredictable methods.

Despite the vast resources and mammoth infrastructure of the CIA, they failed to perform one their most important functions, that is protecting the nation from an external devastating attack.

The role and operation of intelligence in this regard also needs to readjust itself to absorb this form of unpredictable behaviour. South Africa has concerns of its own, especially with regard to the great political and economic instability of its surrounding states.

People are streaming across our borders looking for a fresh start in a country that is struggling to secure socioeconomic benefits for its own citizens. For others, South Africa may be seen as less of a risk from which to continue corrupt and possibly subversive activities, especially as we are a democratic state with the perception that we lack adequate safety and security controls.

This year’s Intelligence budget allocation has increased substantially, of which the NIA received the lion’s share. Our country needs a good intelligence service to protect our democracy, of which we are proud. We are not merely onlookers in the fight for democratic governance and a safe and secure environment, but actively engage ourselves in promoting and protecting our national values.

It is in this light that we will not tolerate our country being used as a platform, from whichever corner, to sell destruction, instability or corruption. The ACDP supports our national values. We therefore have to ensure that our intelligence services are above reproach.

I wish to commend the new Minister of Intelligence, the hon Dr Sisulu, on the positive changes made since her appointment. About a year ago, there were several negative reports that appeared in leading newspapers. I want to refer to the article that was written by Barry Streek published in the Mail & Guardian on 14 November 2001, in which he asserts the disarray in Government’s secret services and, of course, the way in which secret funds were being spent.

I do not contend that the newspaper reports correctly reflect the true state of the NIA, but such reports, true or false, create negative perceptions of the intelligence services. Since the new Minister’s appointment I have noticed considerable progress in the financial management of the secret services, and I am confident as a member of the Joint Standing Committee on Intelligence that there will be sufficient oversight of the spending patterns of the NIA, the Sass, defence and crime intelligence.

It is with these words that the ACDP would like to support this Budget Vote, because we believe that this year’s budget indicates the faith we hope to engender in the task and the responsibilities of the intelligence services. That is why we support this Budget. [Applause.]

Mr L T LANDERS: Chairperson, it is an honour for me to participate in this debate. Allow me to add to the congratulations and good wishes that have already been extended to the chairperson of the JSCI, the hon Dr Siyabonga Cwele, and the outgoing chairperson, now Deputy Minister of Home Affairs, the hon Nosiviwe Mapisa-Nqakula. A while ago South Africa hosted the UN Conference against Racism. As we know, the conference was held at Durban’s International Convention Centre. As with most, if not all, of these events, our security services were intimately involved in ensuring the kind of anarchy we witnessed at other events such as at Davos in Switzerland, did not also occur in Durban.

About a month after this conference, I paid a house visit to one of my constituents in Durban. Winston is a young South African who runs his own electrical contracting company. During our discussion about the conference, he conceded that the road blocks, closed roads, detours and demonstrations created much confusion and frustration for residents and motorists.

However, notwithstanding all this, he said the following words to me Luwellyn, I felt safe.'' It is rare, if not unheard of, for our intelligence services to be praised. Those three wordsI felt safe’’ are particularly significant. They represent an accolade for all our security services. They also represent what is referred to in the intelligence community as personal security, although the term personal security certainly has a much wider connotation within the intelligence community.

If nothing else, the events of September 11 and the destruction of the Twin Towers in New York City have redefined the manner in which the intelligence services relate to one another; more importantly, how effectively they both co-operate with one another and, indeed, how they share information and intelligence with one another.

Intelligence that does not benefit the taxpayers is useless intelligence. This is a lesson that was drummed into us as members of the Joint Standing Committee on Intelligence, JSCI, by Joe Nhlanhla when he was Minister of Intelligence. This applies as much to the SA Intelligence Services as it does to the CIA, the FBI or any other intelligence service of other countries.

We have, of late, seen something of a circus occurring in America. Fingers had been pointed at the FBI and in turn they have pointed a finger at the CIA. George W Bush has been running around holding press conferences, trying to assure the American public that everything is fine, but at the same time he is threatening an overhaul of both the FBI and the CIA. It is important that we in South Africa do not go down the same road.

In previous years we have castigated our defence intelligence for the direction in which that organisation had moved and for the manner in which it carried out its legal mandate. I am pleased to say that this year, for the first time, that will not be the case. Defence intelligence’s improved co-operation with other South African intelligence services is an important and crucial development, given the event of 11 September 2001 and subsequent events. All those role-players who are responsible for this improved co-operation must be congratulated and encouraged to maintain this focus.

Defence intelligence’s integration and transformation initiatives have also progressed well. This development too is welcomed and the organisation and its management must be congratulated for it. Indeed, we are pleased to note that even the mindset of the organisation’s members has changed for the better. Consequently, they are now able to focus on the national interest, instead of on other issues. More importantly, defence intelligence’s recruitment policy even seems to be in line with that of Government. In other words, defence intelligence now targets equity and representativity in its recruitment policy. This is commendable.

An essential facet of the New Partnership for Africa’a Development, or Nepad, is the attainment of stability, peace and prosperity both in sub- Saharan Africa and the rest of the continent. Both the South African secret services’ and the defence intelligence’s contribution in the attainment of this stability, peace and prosperity cannot be overstated.

In conclusion, I want to sound a warning about the underfunding of our intelligence services. Some of our intelligence services, particularly defence intelligence, are responsible for the maintenance of strategic facilities in certain parts of our country. These facilities are in danger of running to neglect and ruin because of inadequate funding. Careful assessment needs to made of these strategic facilities, together with an assessment of our National Key Points Act.

This brings me to the concerns raised by the hon Mr Ferreira of the IFP. Let me say at the outset that we share his concerns and those of the IFP. But, having said that, it is also not true that it is just the IFP which is targeted. The ANC is waiting for four of its members to be cleared on the JSCI at present. Members of Parliament who want to become members of the JSCI have to go through what is called high security clearance which, unfortunately, I am told, is extremely complicated. But I have just spoken to a member who herself is going through that process, and her name was put forward at the same time as the IFP member. She has been waiting all this time as well.

Indeed, we must be reminded that the hon Prof Ndabandaba was also a member of the JSCI and he went through that process as well. Today he is an MEC in KwaZulu-Natal. So, it is not just members of the IFP that are targeted in this way. We want to say that we need to take a careful look at the whole process, including the internal parliamentary process, and if necessary see how we can improve it.

The ANC supports this Budget Vote. [Applause.]

The MINISTER FOR INTELLIGENCE: Chairperson, I would like to thank the members of the committee for their contribution to this debate. I want to thank them for their support and for the confidence that they have shown in us, my staff and their services. I also want to thank them for their words of encouragement. We have taken note of the concerns that have been raised here, especially around criminal intelligence, and we are working on the matter.

The hon Schalkwyk, who has been pondering whether he has been relegated or elevated by being brought to the committee, should take note that within the short space of time that he has been here we have lost several members of the committee. We lost the chairperson because she went on to become the Chief Whip of the Majority Party; we lost Thabang Makwetla, because he became an MEC; and we lost Prof Ndabandaba, because he also became an MEC.

I have been informed that, since then, three members of the committee have been promoted to committee chairs. It seems to me that this is the place to be for upward mobility. [Laughter.] If the DA knows what is good for it, it might even consider appointing the hon Schalkwyk as the deputy head of the party. The member must just stick in there! [Laughter.] [Applause.]

The IFP’s concern is that they were not represented on the committee is my concern as well. I am therefore completely puzzled when questions are directed to me. There is no way that I can appoint members of the committee, and I am glad that the hon Luwellyn Landers has dealt with the matter.

On a lighter note, I had actually thought that the absence of a representative from the IFP was its own aversion to being surrounded by intelligence officers! I have been hearing of this in the media and I thought, well, it is going down that line, but quite clearly I was wrong and I take that back.

The IFP has no aversion to intelligence officers and we will work together to make sure that the IFP has people on the JSCI, because for some reason we also called those intelligence officers. I would like to have somebody there, because one person short in the JSCI is one person too many for me. My office assures me that the clearance of the member has been completed and that it has now been referred to the Speaker.

We have taken note of the hon Olckers’ concern about suspended members, and we will deal with the matter and expedite that. But I also want to indicate to her that the Kubu case has been concluded. [Applause.]

We will be coming to the committee with details on the matter. We can therefore put the matter behind us. I want to thank the member because I know that it has been a concern to her.

Out of sheer jealousy, the Minister for Agriculture and Land Affairs sitting there has been saying to me: ``My God, you have had so much good commentary and support for your budget speech, it is almost spooky.’’ [Laughter.] Eat your heart out! [Applause.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order! Hon members, may I take this opportunity to point out that a letter has gone from the Office of the Speaker to the Chief Whip of the IFP informing the IFP that the hon member has been cleared, and, of course, the whole file is now with the office of the President. The Chief Whip of the IFP has the letter informing the IFP that the hon member has been cleared. Debate concluded.

                          NOTICES OF MOTION

Mr F T MASERUMULE: Madam Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day I shall move on behalf of the ANC:

That the House -

(1) notes that -

   (a)  the Minister of Social Development, the hon Zola Skweyiya,
       announced that the Government has begun to disperse R2 billion
       grants to about 1,9 million people; and


   (b)  the Minister has also called on the public, faith-based
       organisations, business, labour, nongovernmental organisations
       and civil society structures, particularly the youth, to join
       hands with the Government in ensuring that these grants reach
       the beneficiaries;

(2) believes that this move by Government is one of the most significant service deliveries by the ANC Government aimed at alleviating poverty, removing injustices and improving the conditions of life for the poorest of the poor;

(3) commends the Government for embarking on programmes aimed at alleviating poverty; and

(4) calls on the people of South Africa to heed the call made by the Minister to join hands with the Government in ensuring that beneficiaries receive their grants.

[Applause.]

Mr S E OPPERMAN: Madam Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move:

That the House -

(1) notes that -

   (a)  the New NP has chosen to impose a political carpetbagger and
       Jeugkrag spy from Gauteng, Marthinus van Schalkwyk, on the
       Western Cape as the third premier in six months;


   (b)  Mr Van Schalkwyk is a failed politician who was rejected by the
       voters as Leader of the Opposition in the last election; and ...

[Interjections.]

The SPEAKER: Order! Hon member, may I stop you please. Mr Van Schalkwyk is still a member of this House, and I am afraid the language you are using is unparliamentary. [Interjections.] I am afraid I cannot allow you to proceed, hon member.

Mr J H BEKKER: Madam Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the IFP:

That the House -

(1) congratulates the Government, industry and consumers on the continuing improvement in the value of the rand during the last quarter;

(2) notes that this has had a positive effect on the price of petrol and other imported commodities;

(3) further notes that the improvement in the gold price points to increased economic prosperity;

(4) also notes that all these positive economic factors may possibly lead to an economic growth rate of 4% in the next annual financial cycle;

(5) acknowledges and reminds the Government that improved economic growth is the best catalyst for job creation; and

(6) expresses the hope that the improved economic outlook will have a positive effect on the rate of inflation and that an interest rate increase can thus be avoided, as such an increase could undo all the recent economic advances and improvement in the economy.

Mr D H M GIBSON: Madam Speaker, I rise on a point of order. Would you please indicate what it was in the language used by the hon Mr Opperman that was unacceptable. I have had a look at the rest of the motion and, certainly, it is not couched in those terms.

The SPEAKER: The rest of it was not, what was said was. If you could pass it on to me, I will ask for the formal withdrawal.

Mr D H M GIBSON: The term ``political carpetbagger’’, is that what you are talking about? The SPEAKER: There were a number of words. If you would like to pass it on to me? We will proceed and I will come back to you just now.

Ms M A MOLEBATSI: Madam Speaker, I give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the ANC:

That the House -

(1) notes that Comrade John Tseleng Mosupye of Ga-Rankuwa, a former commissar of uMkhonto weSizwe, passed away after a long illness;

(2) acknowledges the contribution of Comrade Mosupye in the struggle against apartheid; and

(3) conveys its sincere condolences to his family, his comrades, the ANC in Ga-Rankuwa and his friends. Robala ka kgotso, senatla sa dinatla. [Rest in peace, hero of heroes.]

[Applause.] Mev M E OLCKERS: Mev die Speaker, hiermee gee ek kennis dat ek op die volgende sittingsdag van die Huis sal voorstel:

Dat die Huis daarvan kennis neem dat -

(1) mnr Marthinus van Schalkwyk eenparig deur die Weskaapse hoofraad en uitvoerende komitee van die Nuwe NP aangewys is as premierskandidaat van die Wes-Kaap; en

(2) mnr Van Schalkwyk uitstekend toegerus is om die amp te beklee vanweë die feit dat -

   (a)  hy reeds diep spore getrap het in die Suid-Afrikaanse politiek;


   (b)  hy 'n groot rol speel in die bemagtiging van opposisiepartye in
       Afrika deur sy betrokkenheid by die demokratiese Unie vir
       Afrika;


   (c)  hy oor die vermoë beskik om uiteenlopende standpunte met mekaar
       te versoen in belang van goeie regering en doeltreffende
       dienslewering; en


   (d)  hy besig is om 'n belangrike rol te speel in die herrangskikking
       van die Suid-Afrikaanse politieke landskap ten einde te voldoen
       aan die eise van 'n moderne inheemse demokrasie. [Applous.] (Translation of Afrikaans notice of motion follows.)

[Mrs M E OLCKERS: Madam Speaker, I shall move at the next sitting of the House:

That the House -

(1) Mr Marthinus van Schalkwyk was unanimously appointed as the candidate for premier by the Western Cape Chief Council and executive committee of the New NP; and

(2) Mr Van Schalkwyk is excellently equipped to fill this position owing to the fact that -

   (a)  he has already left his mark in South African politics;


   (b)  he plays a leading role in the empowerment of opposition parties
       in South Africa through his involvement in the democratic Union
       for Africa;


   (c)  he has the ability to reconcile different points of view with
       one another in the interest of good governance and the effective
       delivery of services; and


   (d)  he plays an important role in the re-arrangement of the South
       African political landscape, in order to comply with the demands
       of an indigenous modern democracy.]

[Applause.]

Mr S ABRAM: Madam Speaker, I give notice that on the next sitting day I shall move:

That the House -

(1) notes that Zimbabwe has appointed a media and information commission that will license media houses and accredit journalists;

(2) further notes that the commission has been packed with government loyalists, whilst independent, knowledgeable media and information experts have been conveniently excluded;

(3) expresses concern that this commission, lacking legitimacy, can act as a tribunal and impose heavy fines and even jail terms; and

(4) calls on the Government to ensure that media freedom, as enshrined in our Constitution as a fundamental principle that we will defend, becomes a guiding principle in Africa to help ensure the success of Nepad.

[Applause.]

Mr L R R REID: Madam Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the ANC:

That the House -

(1) notes that Mr Gerald Morkel has relinquished his ceremonial and public duties, whilst retaining his position as Mayor of Cape Town, and has resigned as leader of the DA in the Western Cape;

(2) believes that Mr Morkel is attempting to retain the privileges of office whilst relinquishing his duties;

(3) reminds Mr Morkel that as an elected representative of the people one must fulfil the obligations and responsibilities vested in the position of first citizen of one of our major cities;

(4) calls on Mr Morkel to resign as mayor; and

(5) calls on the DA to suspend Mr Morkel until the matter is resolved.

[Applause.]

Mrs R M SOUTHGATE: Madam Speaker, I give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the ACDP:

That the House -

(1) notes South Africa’s leading role in calling for a commitment from all countries to reduce the world’s sanitation backlog;

(2) expresses its concern about the fact that there are currently 2,4 billion people around the world who have to live without adequate sanitation;

(3) raises its objection to certain developed nations who do not want to sign an agreement of commitment to work towards reducing by half the sanitation problem by the year 2015; (4) calls on countries to seek support through the UN Development Action Plan to compel all governments to reduce the sanitation backlog; and

(5) calls on the Government to support and commend the Minister of Water Affairs and Forestry in his efforts to step up worldwide action on the problem.

Dr M S MOGOBA: Madam Speaker, I give notice that I shall move at the next sitting of the House on behalf of the PAC:

That the House notes that -

(1) the Westbank community in the Oostenberg Municipality had a capacity- crowd meeting in their local hall;

(2) they showed great determination to reverse the unbelievably shocking conditions under which they live;

(3) they are calling for investigations into the provision and allocations of RDP houses as they allege corruption and nepotism;

(4) they are also calling for an investigation into the calculation of water accounts, as some have been charged over R3 000;

(5) their streets are very dirty and unhygienic and that cleaning services are virtually nonexistent; and

(6) they are being terrorised by gangsters who are becoming a law unto themselves.

Mrs R A NDZANGA: Madam Speaker, I give notice that on the next sitting day I shall move on behalf of the ANC:

That the House -

(1) notes that -

   (a)  Habitat for Humanity began building 100 houses in five days in
       Cato Manor, Durban;


   (b)  former Zambian President Kenneth Kaunda and former United States
       President Jimmy Carter, together with 4 500 volunteers, are
       building homes in the impoverished Cato Manor under the banner
       of Jimmy Carter Work Project 2002;

(2) believes that -

   (a)  this initiative will contribute to improving the quality of life
       of the people of Cato Manor through the provision of affordable
       houses; and


   (b)  commends former presidents Kenneth Kaunda and Jimmy Carter and
       all volunteers for embarking on this historic project in our
       country.

[Applause.] The SPEAKER: Order! Hon members, I wish to explain to you that the words that were offending will be removed from the following motion.

Mr S E OPPERMAN: Thank you, Madam Speaker. I hereby give notice that I shall move on the next sitting day:

That the House -

(1) notes that -

   (a)  the New NP has chosen to impose a political carpetbagger from
       Gauteng, Marthinus van Schalkwyk, on the Western Cape as the
       third premier in six months;


   (b)  Mr Van Schalkwyk is a failed politician who was rejected by the
       voters as Leader of the Opposition in the last election; and


   (c)  the voters have not been consulted about the tawdry deal between
       the ANC and the New NP; and

(2) urges the ANC Government to call an election in the province to give the people of the Western Cape the opportunity to reject the ANC/New NP provincial government and Premier Van Schalkwyk.

[Interjections.][Applause.]

Mr J J DOWRY: Madam Speaker, is it in order for the hon member to call another hon member a carpetbagger? [Interjections.]

The SPEAKER: I think they have used that before, and it has been accepted. [Interjections.]

Mr G B BHENGU: Madam Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the IFP:

That the House - (1) regrets learning that a Khayelitsha boy who blew the whistle on drugs at his school has been shot and injured after he had been seen on a television news programme;

(2) further regrets that pupils in Khayelitsha pretend to be selling sweets or food when in reality they are selling drugs to other pupils;

(3) realises that the boy continues to receive threats and now lives in fear of his life;

(4) recognises that this practice is driven by drug lords trying to make a living out of pupils and inculcating a drug dependency syndrome in schools; and

(5) hopes that the police will do everything in their power to protect the boy and other people alerting them on this illicit act, and also apprehend the responsible criminals.

                        WORLD ENVIRONMENT DAY

                         (Draft Resolution)

The DEPUTY CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Madam Speaker, I move without notice:

That the House -

(1) notes that today, 4 June 2002, is World Environment Day;

(2) further notes that our Constitution guarantees everyone the right -

   (a)  to an environment that is not harmful to their health or well-
       being; and


   (b)  to have the environment protected, for the benefit of present
       and future generations, through reasonable legislative and other
       measures that - ;


       (i)   prevent pollution and ecological degradation;
       (ii)  promote conservation; and


       (iii) secure ecologically sustainable development and use of
              natural resources while promoting justifiable economic
              and social development;

(3) pledges to ensure that these constitutional provisions are implemented and to ensure that future generations inherit a clean, viable and sustainable world.

Agreed to.

The House adjourned at 17:52. __

            ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS

COMMITTEE REPORTS:

National Assembly:

1. Report of the Portfolio Committee on Labour on Labour Standards Convention, dated 4 June 2002:

   The Portfolio Committee on Labour, having considered the request for approval by Parliament of the Convention concerning Tripartite Consultations to Promote the Implementation of International Labour Standards, 1976 (Convention No 144), referred to it, recommends that the House, in terms of section 231(2) of the Constitution, approve the said Convention.

 Report to be considered.

1. Report of the Portfolio Committee on Labour on Occupational Safety and Health Convention, dated 4 June 2002:

   The Portfolio Committee on Labour, having considered the request for approval by Parliament of the Convention concerning Occupational Safety and Health and the Working Environment, 1981 (Convention No 155), referred to it, recommends that the House, in terms of section 231(2) of the Constitution, approve the said Convention.

 Report to be considered.