National Assembly - 19 June 2002
WEDNESDAY, 19 JUNE 2002 __
PROCEEDINGS OF THE NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
____
The House met at 14:03.
The Speaker took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayers or meditation.
ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS - see col 000.
The SPEAKER: Order! Hon members, I trust some of you have noticed we have some visitors in our public gallery of whom we are very proud. We wish to acknowledge Bafana Bafana, a winning team, because they did win on our behalf. [Applause.]
We are very glad they have joined us today, and they have promised me, and I assure you that it is a very sincere promise, that in four years’ time, they are coming back with the cup. [Applause.]
APPROPRIATION BILL
Resumption of debate on Vote No 1 - The Presidency:
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC OF SOUTH AFRICA: Madam Speaker, Madam Deputy Speaker, hon Deputy President, hon Ministers and Deputy Ministers, hon members and fellow South Africans, firstly, I would like to say a word of appreciation to our national soccer team for being with us today. We thank them for the good, quality football they displayed in Korea. [Applause.] They have made us proud. One mark they have left on the world of football is that our national team is world class. We were unfortunate to be eliminated on goal difference, but I am confident that next time we will go to higher levels.
To Jomo Sono and the entire technical team, and to Lucas Radebe and all the players, we say: Heita, Bafana, heita! HON MEMBERS: Heita! [Hello.] [Applause.]
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: All of us are very pleased that our continent remains in contention to win the Soccer World Cup, thanks to the excellent performance of the youth of Senegal. [Applause.] The prospects are good that Senegal will advance further towards the achievement of this objective when they face Turkey in the quarterfinals; Turkey, whom Bafana Bafana defeated. [Applause.] Accordingly, all of Africa wishes them success as they engage in that battle. In many ways, the honourable manner in which Bafana Bafana acquitted themselves in Korea and the progress achieved by Senegal indicate Africa’s determination to move out of the periphery of global affairs to which centuries of adverse developments have sought to confine her.
As an African country, we must be proud that we are part of a continent that has set itself such a goal. As the present generation, we must be excited that we are part of a mass movement for the creation, not only of a new Africa, but also of a new system of international relations that will no longer allow that some view us as a strange occurrence on the human map, the object of pity or contempt.
The hon Pieter Mulder spoke for all of us when he said that the challenges of Africa are also important to him; when he said that to meet these challenges, we complete a lifetime in South Africa with the same spiritual batteries that an Australian friend has to recharge after spending a year helping us to solve our problems. The hon Pieter Mulder was right when he said he grieved for every person who emigrates, because it is a loss to South Africa. But, as he said, people who decide to stay and then only complain, moan and groan, do not help at all. If one decides to stay, one should become involved. Only to ask other people, ``What are you doing to improve my position?’’ is not good enough. One should do something oneself. What the hon Pieter Mulder was saying was: Vukuzenzele, Afrika! [Applause.]
The hon Marthinus van Schalkwyk was correct when he said that all of us face a choice between isolation and participation; between talking South Africa down and believing in South Africa. It is a choice between being partially South African and proudly South African. Of course, he was speaking of the Afrikaans community, but I dare say these choices face all of us as South Africans.
Furthermore, in the context of the new and exciting African world of hope represented by the African Union and the New Partnership for Africa’s Development, we are confronted with the choice between being partially African and proudly African. We must support the hon Pieter Mulder when he says:
My heart is attached to Africa but my mind sets the conditions. I want to be myself in Africa. Is that too much to ask?
To get to the point that the hon Pieter Mulder correctly demands, we must respond to the call made by the hon Gert Oosthuizen when he said: The time has come for many of our countrymen and women to make a choice. The choices that they will have to make will be either to break out of their isolation or stay in the fight-back kraal; and either to get onto the playing field to join us in lending a hand and to create a better life for all, or to become the martyr of their self-inflicted paranoia.
[Applause.] As the hon Gert Oosthuizen said: ``Die Jerigomure is ‘n valse sekuriteit.’’ [The walls of Jericho are a false security.]
In this regard, nobody, anywhere in our country, whoever they are, has a right to call for the killing of any South African, whatever the colour, race, ethnic origin, gender or health condition of the intended victim. Nobody, whoever they are, has the right to call for the killing of farmers or Boers, or the right to threaten violence to advance their particular goals. [Applause.] Those farmers and Boers are as much South African and African as I am, entitled to the same rights and privileges that are enjoyed by any other South African. They too are needed on the playing field of which the hon Gert Oosthuizen spoke, lending a hand to create a better life for all. I am proud that indeed many of them have come onto this playing field, not being partially African, but proudly African. [Applause.]
The hon Marthinus van Schalkwyk said:
It has become commonplace for South Africa and South Africans to astound the world. Where other people lose hope, we see opportunity. The whole world thought that the only logical outcome of our history of racial conflict would be a bloody revolution. But we snatched victory from the jaws of defeat …
I would like to take this opportunity to wish the hon Marthinus van Schalkwyk well in his new and challenging responsibilities as Premier of the Western Cape. [Applause.] Surely, we should all wish him success as he works according to the correct observations he made:
By moving forward into the future and by making a huge effort together, we can improve our common destiny. Together South Africa wins.
The message coming out of the whole of our continent is that the peoples of Africa have taken the decision that it must become commonplace for Africa and the Africans to astound the world, as the quality of African football has astounded the world. Where some, including people within this House, continue to see ours as a hopeless continent, the peoples of Africa are determined to draw inspiration from their adversity to create a continent of opportunity. Where some pray that we should fail because something has gone wrong in one African country, those who are proudly African are resolved to fight for the renaissance of our continent despite any setbacks, while they act together to correct whatever might be wrong.
Even others, far away from our shores, who are not African have joined us in this struggle, understanding their obligations to the millions of ordinary people on our continent who are struggling for freedom from poverty, freedom from underdevelopment, freedom from oppression and denial of human rights, freedom from the denial of their cultural, linguistic and religious rights.
As we meet here, 10 000 British citizens, drawn from the major nongovernmental organisations in that country, are lobbying their members of parliament, demanding that their government should take positions at the forthcoming G8 summit in Canada that will help create the conditions globally, especially with regard to international trade, for the realisation of the objectives of Nepad. [Applause.]
Because of this G8 meeting, they say that June 2002 is a pivotal moment for the world’s poor and therefore for all of us. It is good to have such true friends, whose preoccupation about Africa is not driven by narrow political agendas, but by a commitment to help restore the dignity of the peoples of Africa. I am pleased that I had the opportunity this afternoon to speak to one of these friends, Tony Dykes of Christian Aid and the World Development Movement, to convey our sincere appreciation for their selfless support for the poor in the world, including the African poor.
We too are walking along this path of African renewal and the restoration of the dignity of all our people. That we will achieve our goals, I have no doubt. That our mother continent, Africa, will achieve its goals, I have no doubt. As we did in this country when we engaged in negotiations to move out of our miserable past and we determined that we had the duty to resolve our own problems, depending on our own resources and native talents, the peoples of Africa have resolved that they must act together, depending on their own resources and native talents, to end the age of misery that has enveloped Africa for hundreds of years. This is what the African Union is about. That is what Nepad represents.
As we did not fail when we took the decision to take our destiny into our own hands, I am certain that our continent will not fail, precisely because it has decided to determine its own future without depending on the benevolence of others. It is out of this kind of engagement with the act of creation that new worlds are born, as a new world is being born in our country in front of our very eyes, as a new African world is being born in front of our very eyes, with us present and active in that process of creation.
In this context, I would like to thank our Deputy President, our Ministers and Deputy Ministers, leaders of various parties and organisations of civil society, directors-general and other senior officials, for the work the are doing to lead us in the process of the rebirth of South Africa and Africa. To achieve this noble goal they are obliged to travel the world to explain what we are about, to build a global movement of friends of Africa, to help create the global conditions for the success of our efforts as a country and a continent. We will do everything we have to do to achieve these objectives, including talking to leaders and citizens of all countries in the world.
We did this in the past to liberate our country from the yoke of apartheid. We will do it again, to liberate our country and continent from the dehumanising shackles of poverty and underdevelopment in our country and the rest of Africa. [Applause.]
Even at times of great social change, there are some who are passed by by those processes of transformation because they can see no further than their noses. Yet others sleep through these moments like Rip van Winkels, and wake up to demand the restoration of the old order they knew when they fell into deep slumber. [Laughter.]
I am afraid that there are some in this country and in this House who are victim to such misfortunes. The train of progress will pass them by. It may be that they may not even be able to catch the last coach. Nevertheless, the train will not stop.
As we move on towards a brighter future for our country and our continent, we will also define ourselves afresh, both as South Africans and as Africans, celebrating our identity as peoples of Africa who are dignified, who have their own personality, who value and respect their diversity, who, like the hon Pieter Mulder, want to be themselves in Africa, who excel in creative thought and the creative arts, who are peaceful, who value liberty and respect the rights of the women, children, the elderly and people with disabilities and the strangers in their midst, who are determined to liberate themselves from the destructive humiliation of poverty and underdevelopment.
Shortly, we will be receiving the representatives of the peoples of Africa. We will create a new organisation of these masses, the African Union. A little later, we will welcome the peoples of the world who will convene at the World Summit for Sustainable Development to tackle the enormous challenges of which the hon Pallo Jordan spoke yesterday. The message we must convey to all these leaders and representatives is the message that as South Africans and Africans, we have committed ourselves to the vision of a South Africa and an Africa reborn. We must make the undertaking to them that we will do everything necessary to end the long, dark night of inhuman suffering in our country and continent.
We must ask them to join us in our exciting journey as friends who understand the meaning of human solidarity. We must recite to them the words of the Afrikaner, H A Fagan, which inspire the whole of Africa, and which the hon Gert Oosthuizen read to us yesterday.
Uit duisende monde word die lied gedra, Ek sluit my oë soos ‘n serafskoor. Val daar stemme, strelend op my oë: Nkosi sikelel’ iAfrika.
[Applause.]
Debate concluded.
CONSTITUTION OF THE REPUBLIC OF SOUTH AFRICA SECOND AMENDMENT BILL
(Consideration of Bill, as amended by the National Council of Provinces, and of Report of Portfolio Committee on Justice and Constitutional Development thereon)
There was no debate.
Question put.
That the Constitution of the Republic of South Africa Second Amendment Bill [B 17D - 2002] (National Assembly - sec 74) be agreed to.
Division demanded.
The House divided:
AYES - 287: Ainslie, A R; Andrew, K M; Asmal, A K; Aucamp, C; Bakker, D M; Balfour, B M N; Baloyi, M R; Bell, B G; Benjamin, J; Beukman, F; Bhengu, F; Blaas, A; Blanché, J P I; Bloem, D V; Booi, M S; Botha, A J; Botha, N G W; Bruce, N S; Buthelezi, M N; Cachalia, I M; Camerer, S M; Carrim, Y I; Chalmers, J; Chauke, H P; Chiba, L; Chikane, M M; Chohan- Kota, F I; Cindi, N V; Clelland-Stokes, N J; Coetzee-Kasper, M P; Cronin, J P; Cupido, P W; Cwele, S C; Da Camara, M L; Davidson, I O; Davies, R H; De Lange, J H; Delport, J T; Diale, L N; Didiza, A T; Dithebe, S L; Ditshetelo, P H K; Dlali, D M; Dlamini, B O; Doidge, G Q M; Dowry, J J; Du Toit, D C; Duma, N M; Dyani, M M Z; Eglin, C W; Ellis, M J; Erwin, A; Fankomo, F C; Farrow, S B; Fazzie, M H; Fihla, N B; Fraser-Moleketi, G J; Gandhi, E; Gcina, C I; Geldenhuys, B L; George, M E; Gerber, P A; Gibson, D H M; Gillwald, C E; Gomomo, P J; Goniwe, M T; Goosen, A D; Gore, V C; Gous, S J; Greyling, C H F; Grobler, G A J; Gumede, D M; Hajaig, F; Hanekom, D A; Heine, R J; Hendrickse, P A C; Herandien, C B; Hlaneki, C J M; Hogan, B A; Holomisa, S P; Jankielsohn, R; Jassat, E E; Jeffery, J H; Joemat, R R; Jordan, Z P; Kalako, M U; Kalyan, S V; Kannemeyer, B W; Kasienyane, O R; Kasrils, R; Kati, J Z; Kgarimetsa, J J; Kgauwe, Q J; Kgwele, L M; Komphela, B M; Kota, Z A; Kotwal, Z; Lamani, N E; Landers, L T; Le Roux, J W; Lee, T D; Lekgoro, M K; Lekota, M G P; Lishiva, T E; Lobe, M C; Lockey, D; Louw, J T; Louw, S K; Luthuli, A N; Lyle, A G; Mabe, L; Mabena, D C; Madlala-Routledge, N C; Maduna, P M; Magazi, M N; Magubane, N E; Magwanishe, G; Mahlangu, G L; Mahlangu, M J; Mahlawe, N; Mahomed, F; Maimane, D S; Maine, M S; Makasi, X C; Malebana, H F; Maloney, L; Maluleke, D K; Malumise, M M; Manuel, T A; Maphalala, M A; Mapisa-Nqakula, N N; Martins, B A D; Masala, M M; Maserumule, F T; Mashimbye, J N; Masithela, N H; Masutha, M T; Mathibela, N F; Matsepe- Casaburri, I F; Maunye, M M; Mayatula, S M; Maziya, A M; Mbete, B; Mbombo, N D; McIntosh, G B D; Mdladlana, M M S; Mfundisi, I S; Mguni, B A; Mkono, D G; Mlambo-Ngcuka, P G; Mlangeni, A; Mnandi, P N; Mnumzana, S K; Modise, T R; Modisenyane, L J; Moeketse, K M; Mofokeng, T R; Mohamed, I J; Mohlala, R J B; Mokoena, D A; Molebatsi, M A; Molewa, B G; Moloi, J; Moloto, K A; Mongwaketse, S J; Montsitsi, S D; Moonsamy, K; Moorcroft, E K; Moosa, M V; Morkel, C M; Morobi, D M; Moropa, R M; Morutoa, M R; Morwamoche, K W; Moss, M I; Mothoagae, P K; Motubatse, S D; Mpahlwa, M; Mpaka, H M; Mthembi-Mahanyele, S D; Mthembu, B; Mtsweni, N S; Mufamadi, F S; Mutsila, I; Mzondeki, M J G; Nair, B; Nash, J H; Ncinane, I Z; Ndzanga, R A; Nel, A C; Nel, A H; Nene, N M; Newhoudt-Druchen, W S; Ngaleka, N E; Ngcengwane, N D; Ngculu, L V J; Ngubeni, J M; Nhleko, N P; Nhlengethwa, D G; Niemann, J J; Njobe, M A A; Nobunga, B J; Nonkonyana, M; Nqakula, C; Nqodi, S B; Ntombela, S H; Ntuli, B M; Ntuli, M B; Ntuli, R S; Ntuli, S B; Nzimande, L P M; Odendaal, W A; Olckers, M E; Olifant, D A A; Oosthuizen, G C; Opperman, S E; Pahad, A G H; Pahad, E G; Phadagi, M G; Phohlela, S; Pieterse, R D; Pretorius, I J; Rabie, P J; Rajbally, S; Ramakaba-Lesiea, M M; Ramgobin, M; Ramotsamai, C M P; Rasmeni, S M; Redcliffe, C R; Reid, L R R; Ripinga, S S; Saloojee, E; Schalkwyk, P J; Schippers, J; Schmidt, H C; Schneeman, G D; Schoeman, E A; Schoeman, R S; Scott, M I; Seeco, M A; Sekgobela, P S; Selfe, J; Semple, J A; September, C C; September, R K; Seremane, W J; Shabangu, S; Shilubana, T P; Shope, N R; Sigcau, S N; Sigcawu, A N; Sigwela, E M; Sikakane, M R; Simmons, S; Sisulu, L N; Sithole, D J; Skhosana, W M; Skweyiya, Z S T; Smith, V G; Smuts, M; Solo, B M; Solomon, G; Sonjica, B P; Sosibo, J E; Sotyu, M M; Swart, P S; Thabethe, E; Tinto, B; Tolo, L J; Tshabalala-Msimang, M E; Tsheole, N M; Twala, N M; Uys, P; Vadi, I; Van den Heever, R P Z; Van der Merwe, A S; Van der Merwe, S C; Van Deventer, F J; Van Jaarsveld, A Z A; Van Schalkwyk, M C J; Van Wyk, A (Anna); Van Wyk, J F; Van Wyk, N; Xingwana, L M T; Zita, L; Zondo, R P; Zuma, J G.
NOES - 42: Abrahams, T; Abram, S; Baloyi, O S B; Bhengu, G B; Buthelezi, M G; Cassim, M F; Dhlamini, B W; Douglas, B M; Dudley, C; Ferreira, E T; Green, L M; Hlengwa, M W; Koornhof, G W; Lucas, E J; Madasa, Z L; Makanda, W G; Mars, I; Mbadi, L M; Meshoe, K R J; Middleton, N S; Mndende, O N; Mogoba, M S; Mpontshane, A M; Mulder, C P; Mulder, P W A; Mzizi, M A; Ndlovu, V B; Nefolovhodwe, P J; Ngubane, H; Nkabinde, N C; Pheko, S E M; Ramodike, M N; Roopnarain, U; Seaton, S A; Sibiya, M S M; Skosana, M B; Southgate, R M; Swart, S N; Van der Merwe, J H; Van Wyk, A (Annelize); Vos, S C; Zulu, N E.
Question agreed to in terms of section 74(3)(a) of the Constitution.
Constitution of the Republic of South Africa Second Amendment Bill [B 17D - 2002] (National Assembly - sec 74) accordingly agreed to.
LOSS OR RETENTION OF MEMBERSHIP OF NATIONAL AND PROVINCIAL LEGISLATURES BILL
(Consideration of Bill, as amended by National Council of Provinces, and of Report of Portfolio Committee on Justice and Constitutional Development thereon)
There was no debate.
Question put: That the Loss or Retention of Membership of National And Provincial Legislatures Bill [B 25B - 2002] (National Assembly - sec 76) be agreed to.
During division:
The SPEAKER: Those in favour of the Bill being agreed to should now press the blue button and those against, the red button. [Interjections.] Please, hon members, would you leave your cards in the slots for the moment until the results are announced.
Mr J H VAN DER MERWE: Madam Speaker, on a point or order: Are you going to allow us to vote no also? [Interjections.]
The SPEAKER: I said, ``Those who are against, please press the red button.’’ [Interjections.] Hon Mr Van der Merwe, you were so busy counting, you did not hear me. [Laughter.]
Hon members, the ayes voted 285, the noes voted 30 and there are 13 abstentions. [Applause.]
Mr J H VAN DER MERWE: Madam Speaker, I think there is a misunderstanding. We did not hear you clearly saying, ``Those against must now press the red button.’’ This is why you have the 13 abstentions, I am sure. [Interjections.]
The SPEAKER: I assume you are calling for a revote, because we do have to record votes. [Interjections.]
Mr J H VAN DER MERWE: We will only have to revote the no votes. [Interjections.]
The SPEAKER: No, I am afraid that is not really permissible.
Mr J H VAN DER MERWE: As you please, your lordship - oh … [Laughter.]
The SPEAKER: Order! Hon members, Please remove your cards from the slot. We will take the vote again, because this is a constitutional Bill and I would like it to be absolutely clear.
The House divided:
AYES - 286: Ainslie, A R; Andrew, K M; Asmal, A K; Aucamp, C; Bakker, D M; Balfour, B M N; Baloyi, M R; Bell, B G; Benjamin, J; Beukman, F; Bhengu, F; Blaas, A; Blanché, J P I; Bloem, D V; Booi, M S; Botha, A J; Botha, N G W; Bruce, N S; Buthelezi, M N; Cachalia, I M; Camerer, S M; Carrim, Y I; Chalmers, J; Chauke, H P; Chiba, L; Chikane, M M; Chohan- Kota, F I; Cindi, N V; Clelland-Stokes, N J; Coetzee-Kasper, M P; Cronin, J P; Cupido, P W; Cwele, S C; Da Camara, M L; Davidson, I O; Davies, R H; De Lange, J H; Delport, J T; Diale, L N; Didiza, A T; Dithebe, S L; Ditshetelo, P H K; Dlali, D M; Dlamini, B O; Doidge, G Q M; Dowry, J J; Du Toit, D C; Duma, N M; Dyani, M M Z; Eglin, C W; Ellis, M J; Erwin, A; Fankomo, F C; Farrow, S B; Fazzie, M H; Fihla, N B; Fraser-Moleketi, G J; Gandhi, E; Gcina, C I; Geldenhuys, B L; George, M E; Gerber, P A; Gibson, D H M; Gillwald, C E; Gomomo, P J; Goniwe, M T; Goosen, A D; Gore, V C; Gous, S J; Greyling, C H F; Grobler, G A J; Gumede, D M; Hajaig, F; Hanekom, D A; Heine, R J; Hendrickse, P A C; Herandien, C B; Hlaneki, C J M; Hogan, B A; Holomisa, S P; Jankielsohn, R; Jassat, E E; Jeffery, J H; Joemat, R R; Jordan, Z P; Kalako, M U; Kalyan, S V; Kannemeyer, B W; Kasienyane, O R; Kasrils, R; Kati, J Z; Kgarimetsa, J J; Kgauwe, Q J; Kgwele, L M; Komphela, B M; Kota, Z A; Kotwal, Z; Lamani, N E; Landers, L T; Le Roux, J W; Lee, T D; Lekgoro, M K; Lekota, M G P; Lishiva, T E; Lobe, M C; Lockey, D; Louw, J T; Louw, S K; Luthuli, A N; Lyle, A G; Mabe, L; Mabena, D C; Madlala-Routledge, N C; Maduna, P M; Magazi, M N; Magubane, N E; Magwanishe, G B; Mahlangu, G L; Mahlangu, M J; Mahlawe, N; Mahomed, F; Maimane, D S; Maine, M S; Makasi, X C; Malebana, H F; Maloney, L; Maluleke, D K; Malumise, M M; Manuel, T A; Maphalala, M A; Mapisa-Nqakula, N N; Martins, B A D; Masala, M M; Maserumule, F T; Mashimbye, J N; Masithela, N H; Masutha, M T; Mathibela, N F; Matsepe- Casaburri, I F; Maunye, M M; Mayatula, S M; Maziya, A M; Mbete, B; Mbombo, N D; McIntosh, G B D; Mdladlana, M M S; Mfundisi, I S; Mguni, B A; Mlambo-Ngcuka, P G; Mlangeni, A; Mnandi, P N; Mnumzana, S K; Modise, T R; Modisenyane, L J; Moeketse, K M; Mofokeng, T R; Mohamed, I J; Mohlala, R J B; Mokoena, D A; Molebatsi, M A; Molewa, B G; Moloi, J; Moloto, K A; Mongwaketse, S J; Montsitsi, S D; Moonsamy, K; Moorcroft, E K; Moosa, M V; Morkel, C M; Morobi, D M; Moropa, R M; Morutoa, M R; Morwamoche, K W; Moss, M I; Mothoagae, P K; Motubatse, S D; Mpahlwa, M; Mpaka, H M; Mthembi-Mahanyele, S D; Mthembu, B; Mtsweni, N S; Mufamadi, F S; Mutsila, I; Mzondeki, M J G; Nair, B; Nash, J H; Ncinane, I Z; Ndzanga, R A; Nel, A C; Nel, A H; Nene, N M; Newhoudt-Druchen, W S; Ngaleka, N E; Ngcengwane, N D; Ngculu, L V J; Ngubeni, J M; Nhleko, N P; Nhlengethwa, D G; Niemann, J J; Njobe, M A A; Nobunga, B J; Nonkonyana, M; Nqakula, C; Nqodi, S B; Ntombela, S H; Ntuli, B M; Ntuli, M B; Ntuli, R S; Ntuli, S B; Nzimande, L P M; Odendaal, W A; Olckers, M E; Olifant, D A A; Oosthuizen, G C; Opperman, S E; Pahad, A G H; Pahad, E G; Phadagi, M G; Phohlela, S; Pieterse, R D; Pretorius, I J; Rabie, P J; Rajbally, S; Ramakaba-Lesiea, M M; Ramgobin, M; Ramotsamai, C M P; Rasmeni, S M; Redcliffe, C R; Reid, L R R; Ripinga, S S; Saloojee, E; Schalkwyk, P J; Schippers, J; Schmidt, H C; Schneeman, G D; Schoeman, E A; Schoeman, R S; Scott, M I; Seeco, M A; Sekgobela, P S; Selfe, J; Semple, J A; September, C C; September, R K; Seremane, W J; Shabangu, S; Shilubana, T P; Shope, N R; Sigcau, S N; Sigcawu, A N; Sigwela, E M; Sikakane, M R; Simmons, S; Sisulu, L N; Sithole, D J; Skhosana, W M; Skweyiya, Z S T; Smith, V G; Smuts, M; Solo, B M; Solomon, G; Sonjica, B P; Sosibo, J E; Sotyu, M M; Swart, P S; Thabethe, E; Tinto, B; Tolo, L J; Tshabalala-Msimang, M E; Tsheole, N M; Twala, N M; Uys, P; Vadi, I; Van den Heever, R P Z; Van der Merwe, A S; Van der Merwe, S C; Van Deventer, F J; Van Jaarsveld, A Z A; Van Schalkwyk, M C J; Van Wyk, A (Anna); Van Wyk, J F; Van Wyk, N; Xingwana, L M T; Zita, L; Zondo, R P; Zuma, J G.
NOES - 42: Abrahams, T; Abram, S; Baloyi, O S B; Buthelezi, M G; Cassim, M F; Dhlamini, B W; Douglas, B M; Dudley, C; Ferreira, E T; Green, L M; Hlengwa, M W; Koornhof, G W; Lucas, E J; Madasa, Z L; Makanda, W G; Mars, I; Mbadi, L M; Meshoe, K R J; Middleton, N S; Mkono, D G; Mndende, O N; Mogoba, M S; Mpontshane, A M; Mulder, C P; Mulder, P W A; Mzizi, M A; Ndlovu, V B; Nefolovhodwe, P J; Ngubane, H; Nkabinde, N C; Pheko, S E M; Ramodike, M N; Roopnarain, U; Seaton, S A; Sibiya, M S M; Skosana, M B; Southgate, R M; Swart, S N; Van der Merwe, J H; Van Wyk, A (Annelize); Vos, S C; Zulu, N E.
Question agreed to.
Loss or Retention of Membership of National And Provincial Legislatures Bill [B 25B - 2002] (National Assembly - sec 76) accordingly agreed to.
NOTICES OF MOTION
Ms N D NGCENGWANE: Chair, I shall move on behalf of the ANC:
That the House -
(1) notes that President Thabo Mbeki appealed for unity and urged South Africans to be more positive about their country during the Budget Vote debate on the Presidency on Tuesday, 18 June 2002;
(2) believes that the unity of our people, irrespective of race, tribe, colour or religion, is an important precondition to building the nonracial, nonsexist, democratic and prosperous South Africa we seek to build; and
(3) echoes the call made by the President for our people to unite for the reconstruction and development of our country.
[Applause.]
Mr W J SEREMANE: Chairperson, I hereby give notice that I shall move:
That the House -
(1) notes that the Libyan ruler, President Muammar Gaddafi, states that Nepad is a project of former colonisers and racists;
(2) records that President Gaddafi’s scepticism about Nepad probably relates to its insistence on democracy, human rights and good governance - concepts which are foreign to Libya under Gaddafi; and
(3) urges President Mbeki to put Africa ahead of the ANC’s fundraising by ignoring President Gaddafi and other African dictators, and to continue insisting that democracy and good governance remain part of the New Partnership for Africa’s Development.
[Interjections.]
Mr E T FERREIRA: I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the IFP:
That the House -
(1) is appalled to learn that the abuse of heroin is rife among teenagers in South Africa;
(2) deplores the fact that this abuse of heroin is quickly gaining momentum among black teenagers, depicting a new trend on substance abuse;
(3) sympathises with the drug crisis centres across the country who are struggling to cope with the unprecedented demand for rehabilitation treatment; and
(4) urges the Departments of Safety and Security and of Social Development to do everything in their power to deal with this scourge.
Ms J MOLOI: Chairperson, I hereby give notice that I shall move on behalf of the ANC:
That the House -
(1) notes that -
(a) the Minister of Health, the hon Manto Tshabalala-Msimang,
announced the launch of the Khomanani Health Worker Excellence
Award for HIV and Aids, tuberculosis and sexually transmitted
infections campaign; and
(b) this campaign aims at motivating and encouraging health workers
to change attitudes and enabling them to act responsibly in
dealing with those infected and affected by the HIV/Aids
epidemic;
(2) believes that health workers -
(a) are vital players in the prevention of HIV and Aids; and
(b) play a significant role in fighting stigma and promoting
openness to people living with HIV/Aids; and
(3) welcomes the launch of the Khomanani Health Workers Excellence Award, as this will contribute to encouraging health workers to work towards a better life for all our people through providing health care for all.
[Applause.]
Mr J SCHIPPERS: Chairperson, I hereby give notice that I shall move on behalf of the New NP:
That the House -
(1) notes the positive outcome of constructive talks held between a New NP delegation and Mr Lekota, Minister of Defence and national chairperson of the ANC, and Mr Nqakula, Minister of Safety and Security;
(2) also notes that as a result of these talks the ANC has -
(a) distanced itself from the slogan ``Kill the boer, kill the
farmer'' that was chanted at the funeral of the late Mr Peter
Mokaba, ANC MP;
(b) condemned the shocking farm murders over the weekend in KwaZulu-
Natal; and
(c) agreed once again that reconciliation is the most important
factor in eliminating prejudice between communities;
(3) commends the Ministers for their swift action and for agreeing to the meeting at such short notice; and
(4) believes this bodes well for the future co-operation between our parties and communities.
[Applause.]
Ms ANNELIZÉ VAN WYK: Hon Chairperson, I hereby give notice that I will move on behalf of the UDM at the next sitting of this House:
That the House -
(1) notes the explosive video footage detailing corruption, drug and arms smuggling and sexual abuse of juveniles in prisons shown to millions of South Africans last night; (2) acknowledges this as proof of a complete breakdown of the basic operational functioning of the prison system;
(3) calls for the immediate suspension of wardens identified in the video pending the outcome of further investigations;
(4) urges the Minister and the Commissioner of Correctional Services to put aside their personal embarrassment regarding these revelations and to act decisively and urgently to rid the department of such corrupt officials and practices that endanger the lives of both officials and inmates; and
(5) calls on the Minister and on the Commissioner of Correctional Services to keep this House and the public informed about steps taken.
Mrs M A A NJOBE: Chair, I hereby give notice that I shall move on behalf of the ANC:
That the House - (1) notes that the people of Keiskammahoek in the Eastern Cape received a R102 million land claim settlement this weekend;
(2) recalls that the people of Gwili-Gwili, Gxulu, Mnyameni, Mtwaku, Ndlovini, Ngobazana and Upper Ngqumeya were forcibly removed during the implementation of the so-called betterment planning from the 1950s;
(3) notes that the award will be divided into R47,3 million for financial compensation and R54,9 million for development projects;
(4) congratulates the people of Keiskammahoek on the settlement of their claim; and
(5) commends the Land Claims Commission, the Border Rural Committee, the Department of Land Affairs, the National Development Agency and the Land Bank for the roles they played in the settlement of this claim.
[Applause.] Mr P H K DITSHETELO: Chairperson, I hereby give notice that I shall move on behalf of the UCDP:
That the House -
(1) notes -
(a) with concern that South Africa is currently importing maize from
overseas, particularly Mexico and Canada, and the fear that our
farmers might not be in a position to meet our domestic demands;
(b) that this has the real potential to lead to maize being
completely depleted thus presenting a situation which we can ill
afford; and
(c) that the country is currently experiencing rising costs in terms
of basic foodstuffs; and
(2) urges the Government to pay special attention to this anomaly. Dr S E M PHEKO: Chair, I give notice that I shall, at the next sitting of the House, move:
That the House -
(1) notes that the PAC supports the filing of the legal claim by the victims of apartheid for reparations from Swiss, American and all other banks which propped up the apartheid regime in our country during the colonial and apartheid era;
(2) considers the apartheid reparations international claim a milestone in the history of the struggle for the people of this country and of Africa in general;
(3) views this claim as a turning point in the pursuit of truth and justice for the brutalised and powerless people of this world; and
(4) notes that -
(a) the PAC salutes Jubilee 2000 for the noble struggle it has been
waging for reparations at the time when the PAC was ridiculed
for raising this issue by those who ignore the principle of
international law when claimed by Africa's people; and
(b) the PAC further wishes the legal teams which are representing
the victims of apartheid all success.
Mr S M RASMENI: Chairperson, I hereby give notice that I shall move on behalf of the ANC:
That the House -
(1) notes the report that a Durban film script writer, Ramesh Jethalal, poured fuel onto the explosive debate raging on about Mbongeni Ngema’s controversial song AmaNdiya, by accusing Africans of being carriers of HIV/Aids, criminals and of being uneducated;
(2) believes that - (a) racism, racial stereotypes and racial prejudice do not have a place in the new democratic dispensation, and must be condemned wherever they rear their ugly heads; and
(b) both Mbongeni Ngema's song and Ramesh Jethalal's statement only
serve to fuel racial hatred and racial division amongst our
people and are an impediment to building a new nation; and
(3) rejects the racist understones of Mbongeni Ngema’s song and Ramesh Jethalal’s statement, which fuel racial tensions and racial divisions amongst our people.
[Applause.]
Mnr S E OPPERMAN: Voorsitter, hiermee gee ek kennis dat ek sal voorstel:
Dat die Huis -
(1) daarvan kennis neem dat -
(a) 'n taal wat op ander afgedwing is juis die vonk in the 1976-
kruitvat was;
(b) die voortdurende ondermyning van Afrikaans en die geestesgoedere
van Afrikaanssprekendes 'n kenmerk van die Asmal-era geword het;
en
(c) dat die imperialistiese onderrok van die Europese professor
duidelik toon dat hy nie in staat is om die kwessie van
taalregte objektief te benader nie; en
(2) ‘n dringende taal-Kodesa aanvra waar die volle implikasie van taalregte eens en vir altyd uitgespel sal word. (Translation of Afrikaans notice of motion follows.)
[Mr S E OPPERMAN: Chairperson, I hereby give notice that I shall move:
That the House -
(1) takes note of the fact that -
(a) a language which was forced on others was the very spark in the
1976 tinder-box;
(b) the continued undermining of Afrikaans and the spiritual assets
of Afrikaans speakers has become a characteristic of the Asmal
era; and
(c) the imperialistic petticoat of the European professor clearly
shows that he is not able to approach the issue of language
rights objectively; and
(2) urgently requests a language Codesa where the full implications of language rights can be spelled out once and for all.]
Mrs L R MBUYAZI: Chairperson, I wish to give notice that I shall move on behalf of the IFP:
That the House -
(1) welcomes the announcement by the Minister of Environmental Affairs and Tourism that he will go on-line in order that he can open an almost direct line of communication between himself and concerned citizens of our land, especially at this time of preparation for the world summit;
(2) notes that the tremendous negative impact that the burning of fossil fuels and other practices have on the environment leads to serious anxiety on the part of individuals; and
(3) welcomes the opportunity for all concerned citizens to speak directly to the Minister and to be answered on a one-on-one basis allowing for all shades of opinions to be fully ventilated and taken into account.
Mr J N MASHIMBYE: Chairperson, with appropriateness observed, I hereby give notice that I shall move: That the House -
(1) notes -
(a) with alarm the video footage detailing drugs and arms smuggling
and the sex abuse of juveniles in Grootvlei Prison,
Bloemfontein; and
(b) that the manifestation of corruption where prisoners are easily
able to buy marijuana, mandrax, alcohol and juvenile prisoners
for sex from warders underlies the disturbing state of our
overcrowded prisons with -
(i) staffing shortages;
(ii) low staff morale related to low pay; and
(iii) corrupt warders who secure employment by falsifying
documents;
(2) urges all staff of the Department of Correctional Services to give committed and unwavering support to the Jali commission in its investigations;
(3) commends those who have thus far exposed corruption in our prisons; and
(4) calls for the immediate dismissal of those found to be culpable of any corruption.
[Applause.]
Mr A BLAAS: Chair, I hereby give notice that I shall move on behalf of the New NP:
That the House -
(1) gives recognition to the Waterwise Madadeni oSizweni Project (WMOP), managed by the Municipal Council of Newcastle, which has been selected out of hundreds of development projects to represent South Africa at the Dubai International Awards for Best Practices to Improve the Living Environment 2002;
(2) notes that the project -
(a) supplies water to approximately 150 000 people;
(b) prevents pollution of the Ncandu River and has improved the
quality of life for the residents;
(c) improved communication between the residents of Madadeni,
oSizweni, the local council and the municipality;
(d) is made sustainable through the commitment and participation of
the community; and
(e) creates jobs focused on the youth, women and disabled people;
and
(3) believes that this project does South Africa proud and wishes the Municipal Council of Newcastle the best of luck with this participation.
[Applause.]
ANOC AWARD TO SAM RAMSAMY
(Draft Resolution)
The DEPUTY CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Chairperson, I move without notice:
That the House -
(1) notes that the Association of National Olympic Committees (ANOC) has recently bestowed on Dr Sam Ramsamy, the President of the National Olympic Committee of South Africa (NOCSA), a merit award for his contribution to the Olympic spirit;
(2) recognises this achievement, a first for a South African, as a milestone;
(3) congratulates Dr Sam Ramsamy on his nomination for one of sport’s prestigious awards.
Agreed to.
SENDING OF BILLS TO PRESIDENT WITHOUT OFFICIAL TRANSLATIONS
(Draft Resolution)
The DEPUTY CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Chairperson, I move without notice:
That, notwithstanding Joint Rule 221 and subject to the concurrence of the National Council of Provinces, the official texts of the following Bills without delay be sent to the President without the official translations, the official translations to follow as a matter of urgency:
(1) Constitution of the Republic of South Africa Amendment Bill [B 16B - 2002] (National Assembly - sec 74);
(2) Constitution of the Republic of South Africa Second Amendment Bill [B 17D - 2002] (National Assembly - sec 74);
(3) Local Government: Municipal Structures Amendment Bill [B 22B - 2002] (National Assembly - sec 75); and
(4) Loss or Retention of Membership of National and Provincial Legislatures Bill [B 25B - 2002] (National Assembly - sec 76).
Agreed to.
TIME FOR DECLARATIONS OF VOTE
(Draft Resolution)
The DEPUTY CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Chairperson, I move the motion printed in the Order Paper in the name of the Chief Whip of the Majority Party, as follows:
That, notwithstanding Rule 81, the time for a declaration of vote on Thursday, 20 June 2002, shall not exceed two minutes.
Agreed to.
FINANCIAL ADVISORY AND INTERMEDIARY SERVICES BILL
(Second Reading debate)
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF FINANCE: Chairperson and hon members, the protection of consumers of all varieties of financial services and products is the reason I stand before you today. In South Africa there has been no formal system of regulating financial advisers and intermediaries. This implies that there has been no recourse for consumers who have been sold financial products that are either ill-suited to their needs or do not deliver the promised returns.
There has been a long-felt need for regulation that stems from the commission of inquiry into the affairs of the Masterbond group and investor protection in South Africa in October 2001.
The Policy Board for Financial Services and Regulation in 1996 accepted the task of conceptualising and designing appropriate legislation to cover this regulatory deficiency. In December 1998, after several meetings and workshops, the policy board produced a basic framework for this law.
The Financial Services Board was mandated to draft legislation and to conduct the necessary consultation process. Following extensive consultations, the range of financial products that were to be defined in the Bill was expanded significantly so as to cover most financial products and instruments, including bank deposits.
A major revision of the ambit of the Bill occurred when intermediary services were made subject to the terms of the Bill, in addition to the furnishing of advice, thereby bringing into the regulatory net virtually all the activities of the entire broker fraternity in the long-term and the short-term insurance industries, as well as those of portfolio or fund managers.
What is important to understand is that the Bill has a functional, and not
institutional, approach. It regulates a function, not a person or an
institution directly. Therefore, if a person performs the function of
advice'' or intermediary services’’, that person will have to be
licensed under the Bill, irrespective of whether the person is a product
supplier who may already be licensed under some other law, or an
intermediary or broker, or an investment manager. In each instance the
advice'' or theintermediary service’’ must relate to a ``financial
product’’ which embraces almost every investment or insurance product or
financial instrument in the marketplace.
Effective regulation is to be achieved through a number of mechanisms. Firstly, a financial services provider must be licensed in terms of the Bill and will have to comply with certain prescribed fit and proper criteria relating to honesty and integrity, competence and operational ability, and financial soundness. A licence may be granted subject to certain conditions and restrictions, which creates the opportunity for the differentiation or categorisation of providers in accordance with the type and level of service rendered. In that way, unreasonable entry barriers may be obviated.
Secondly, the Bill imposes responsibilities on financial service providers with regard to their representatives for whose conduct the financial services provider is liable. A representative engages in the same activities as its principal, but does so for or on behalf of the financial services provider, because he or she is either an employee or holds the mandate from the provider. Representatives also need to meet the criteria relating to honesty and competence.
In order to establish a professional group of financial services providers in South Africa, the Bill lays down standards for the market conduct of both providers and representatives. The focus is the needs of the consumer, the rights of the consumer to be treated fairly, full disclosure of any relevant matter and the responsibility of the industry players to act professionally and to place the interests of the consumer above their own.
A system of compliance is created in order to monitor adherence to the law, through the appointment of compliance officers, record-keeping, proper accounting and, where appropriate, auditing requirements.
Due care has been taken to ensure effective law enforcement in the event of transgressions by financial service providers or representatives. Consumer complaints will be dealt with through a formal, yet expeditious and cost- effective, dispute resolution mechanism in the form of the Office of the Ombud for Financial Service Providers. The design of the office is to meet the constitutional requirements of independence and impartiality. A determination by the ombud will have the effect of a civil judgment and will be executable through the ordinary judicial process.
In addition, civil remedies are available to the registrar, such as class actions on behalf of deprived clients. The registrar, who is empowered to declare certain practices undesirable, may impose administrative penalties. Finally, criminal sanctioning is provided for through heavy fines and terms of imprisonment.
Like other Acts administered by the Financial Services Board, the Bill creates a registrar, being the executive officer of the FSB. There will also be an advisory committee with whom the registrar must consult on important issues affecting the implementation of the Bill.
An outstanding feature of the Bill is its flexibility of application. This will enable the regulator to rectify unintended consequences, to address cases of hardship and to ensure pragmatism in the application of the Act.
In conclusion, I am happy to state that the controversy over the position of health brokers - that is, whether their market conduct should be regulated under this Bill, rather than under the Medical Schemes Act - has been sensibly resolved. The essential element of the agreement concluded is that intermediaries in the medical schemes environment - in other words, health brokers - will, like all other intermediaries, be subject to the common framework provided by the Bill, thereby establishing an integrated approach to market conduct regulation.
I must say that we shall await an amendment, which is to be effected to the Medical Schemes Act as part of the agreement that we entered into, in order to make sure that our definitions of ``health broker’’ are the same in both the Medical Schemes Act and the Financial Advisory and Intermediary Services Bill.
The Bill before the National Assembly today is the final product of intensive deliberations during the consultative process and during the debates before the portfolio committee. All major industry players, consumer organisations, governmental institutions and regulators have expressed support for this Bill. It is proposed that a sound case has been made for the adoption of the Bill in the interests of consumer protection. [Applause.]
Ms B A HOGAN: Chairperson, the Deputy Minister has given us an excellent summary of the main provisions of this Bill, so I will not repeat what he has said. Suffice it to say that the protection of consumers of financial products is vital, given that this has been absent in our regulatory environment for so long.
The regulator, the Financial Services Board, is going to set up a registrar of financial services providers, who will act as the regulator for the people who provide financial services products.
During committee meetings there was some debate as to what constitutes a financial product. One of these debates became one of the most contentious debates in the committee, and that is whether a health product, for instance, can be said to be a financial product or not.
Now it is clear that for most people provision for medical aid is a financial act. It is also very clear at the same time that the provision of medical aid is very much part of a health system, and so it has a dual reality. Hence the most difficult issue which the committee had to deal with was: How do we deal with people who sell health products? Should they be seen as normal vendors of a financial product or should they be seen as part of a system which renders health services to the country at large? The debate centred on whether the Financial Services Board should be the regulator of people who sell health products or whether the Medical Schemes Council should be that regulator.
It was pointed out that in terms of the Medical Schemes Act there is virtually no protection for the consumer - absolutely no protection. In fact, there is not even enabling legislation. There is no protection for consumers of health products. The only protection that could be afforded would therefore be via the protection envisaged in the Financial Services Board.
With that in mind, an agreement has been reached between the two regulators that, in fact, the Financial Services Board will provide the regulatory framework for the protection of people who sell health products, but that the Medical Schemes Council will continue to licence these people.
I think this is a very, very sensible arrangement. It is not dual supervision, as some have claimed, but does provide, I think, the kind of ideal solution to the dual nature of the kind of product that is being sold. What one must point out is that one did not want regulatory arbitrage. In other words, one did not want financial service providers or intermediaries registering as the vendors of health products in order to avoid the more punitive regime of the financial services regulatory environment. Therefore I think we have reached a satisfactory conclusion. Like the Deputy Minister, we look forward to the amendments which the Health Ministry will bring to this House to effect the kind of agreement which has been reached.
But there are one or two other issues that I just want to touch on, which affected our debates within the committee. One was the question around the independence of the ombud. To what extent can we say that this ombud is completely independent? We effected some changes to ensure the independence of that ombud and I think we are more satisfied, and have got legal opinion on that now, that the ombud has a more independent status.
The other issue was the issue of bank deposits. Should those who advise on bank deposits fall within this regulatory environment? We acknowledged that an ordinary bank teller could provide financial advice to persons standing in a queue and say, ``maybe take out this kind of bank deposit, rather than that,’’ and then that would place some terrible onerous regime on the banking industry to then follow the full requirements of protection.
We reached a compromise on that as well. Bank deposits will fall in the range of protections offered by the financial services regulator, but not with the severity that pertains to other products.
The cost-benefit analysis was also done. There was an argument from many sources that this kind of regulation imposes enormous costs and that the costs are, inevitably, passed on to the consumer. We had the benefit of a detailed cost-benefit analysis and, yes, there are some costs. However, we believe that these costs are necessary in order for the consumer to enjoy the protection. If we look at what happened to people involved in the Masterbond debacle, for instance, far more was lost to them than the incidental costs arising.
I have also spoken to people in the industry, and there are people who have said to me that they are compliance officers in the life insurance industry, and that they are concerned about the practices that sometimes pertain in that particular industry. For instance, a compliance officer can be called into the general manager’s office and instructed, literally instructed, to write off on compliance issues even though that compliance officer knows that the compliance regime is not correct.
So this is not an Act that is impervious, and we trust that the Life Officers’ Association and those agencies that are involved will continue to review their internal practices so that the objectives of this Bill are not defeated through the way in which these mechanisms are implemented.
Finally, there is an advisory committee that will advise the regulator. Mention has been made of the fact that there is a danger that one can have industry capture, that because the advisory committee consists of people who are active in the industry and includes them, that industry can then capture the regulator. I think this is an issue which we do need to note and, maybe, come back to at a certain stage because it has very serious consequences.
Finally, the Minister of Finance has called for a single regulator. Obviously, the issues that were brought before our committee certainly reveal the fact that there can be enormous turf battles between regulators. Certainly, when one looks at the way that products are now offered by the same people, we can see that there is no longer the strict delineation of these institutions. Perhaps the ideal of a single regulator needs to be entertained seriously.
However, I would urge that a public debate ensue around the question of a single financial regulator so that we can all hear the arguments for and against, and there are considerable ones in terms of that. We look forward to such a debate taking place. Certainly, for us in the committee it would make our job much easier. [Applause.]
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! Hon members, some of you are competing with the speaker at the podium.
Ms R TALJAARD: Chairperson, hon members, globally we are witnessing an increase in the activities of regulatory structures and the regulation of industries and bodies that formally prided themselves on the principles of self-regulation. Recently Arthur Andersen and Merrill Lynch have been examples sparking further debate on corporate governance and regulation in the interests of shareholders and consumers.
Having emphasised the imperative for regulation to protect consumers, I need to make three important provisos. Firstly, the financial services sector is a vibrant, rapidly diversifying and transforming sector, and legislation must not impede and/or stifle the innovation and transformation of the sector.
Secondly, the clear contractual axiom caveat emptor, ``let the buyer beware’’, remains a guiding principle, which no amount of regulation can ever replace.
Thirdly, no level of regulation can protect consumers from weak corporate governance in any entities and/or in the financial services industry. A balance therefore needs to be struck between sound corporate governance and the regulation of the financial services providers in accordance with this Bill.
In the financial services industry, as in any other, there is, of course, a balance that needs to be struck between the protection awarded to the consumer and ensuring that the viability and vigorous entrepreneurial activity within the financial services sector is not hamstrung in any manner.
A balance needs to be struck between the responsibilities of consumers and basic regulation that will allow consumers to distinguish between good and bad financial services providers and products. In this regard, the role played by the media and columnists in advising the public on good and bad providers and products was never mentioned in these discussions. Do media houses therefore have a duty and an obligation to register formally as financial advisers or intermediaries? This is an issue that will need resolving.
The legislation before us today and the system of accreditation which it creates for financial service providers in terms of clause 8 of the Bill, as well as the consequential amendments to the Medical Schemes Act, aim to create greater clarity in respect of good and bad financial service providers and products. However, despite the agreements between the executive officer of the FSB and the Registrar of Medical Schemes and the Banking Council of South Africa in relation to medical financial services and deposits in the banking sector, which have taken away some of the concerns about an unlevel playing field in terms of service providers, some concerns remain.
In relation to creating an unlevel playing field, the passage of the FAIS Bill leaves a number of areas untouched, such as the microlending industry, where we clearly need either a tightening of the existing regulations under the Micro Finance Regulatory Council in consultation with the DTI or further transformation to ensure that the microlending industry falls squarely under the regulations of the FAIS Bill. Furthermore, while there may be arguments to be made to exempt or phase in the application of this Bill to the emerging financial advisory sector, such steps will have to contend with the equality provisions of the Constitution.
While it is to be welcomed that an agreement was reached between the Ministries of Health and Finance and the respective regulators, a note of concern needs to be sounded that a deal between key agents of the executive and regulators which is then not submitted for public comment by the industry affected and a second round of public comment on a crucial deals, such as this one, must not recur in future.
Globally, the financial services industry is regulated with a great degree of specificity. While the FAIS Bill takes the first step in regulation in the interests of consumers, Parliament and indeed the advisory committee set up in accordance with this Bill, which comprises industry players - and admittedly there is a risk of regulatory capture - must keep a watchful eye not only on the regulations issued pursuant to the passage of this Bill but also over the implementation going forward.
In this respect it is cause for concern that the Policyholder Protection Rules set up in accordance with the Long-term Insurance Act will continue in force alongside this Bill to be rolled back by ministerial notice in terms of clause 44(5) of the Bill. Given that there are inconsistencies between the underlying principles of the PP rules and the FAIS Bill, it is debatable whether clause 44(5) and this process are fully satisfactory to address the transition between the two regulatory regimes.
While in terms of principle and in practical terms the advisory committee should have a great degree of advisory sway over the registrar in deciding how to roll back some of the PP rules in advising the Minister, it is regrettable that the current crafting of clause 44(5) takes insufficient notice of this practical reality.
One of the crucial concerns the DA has in relation to this Bill has yet again highlighted one of the weaknesses of this Parliament: the balance between enabling provisions and regulations. Unfortunately, the cost- benefit analysis submitted to the committee on this Bill by Genesis Analytics, which estimated the compliance cost to the financial services industry to be R334 million per annum versus a R1,15 billion gain, was methodologically deeply flawed and did not take any additional compliance burden emanating from the regulations into account. It can be convincingly argued that the real compliance cost to the financial services industry will only become clear once the regulations, the predictable devil in the detail of the compliance issue, have been finalised.
Already the FSB have referred to 13 pieces of potential secondary legislation that need to be finalised in accordance with this Bill. Apart from the difficulty this poses in judging whether the Bill really strikes an appropriate balance between consumer and industry interests, the DA is furthermore concerned that the new increased compliance costs of the regulatory burden must not be passed onto consumers in total.
Despite the concerns highlighted above, it is compelling to note that this Bill enjoys the support of most if not all industry players. As long as the registrar and the FSB continue to take the views of the Advisory Committee on Financial Services Providers into account - I am not saying it has to be conclusive or persuasive, given the risk of regulatory capture - in the development of regulations and the implementation of this legislation, the industry will continue to have a say in the implementation phase of the new regulatory regime.
With some of the concerns we have highlighted, the DA supports this Bill. [Applause.]
Mr H J BEKKER: Mr Chairman, the hon Minister confirmed that this legislation encompasses the widest categories and the widest terms for financial advisers, brokers or agents.
Inkatha is in favour of many of the regulations, but the question can be asked, with regard to few cases: ``Are we not creating a shotgun to kill a fly?’’ The Free Market Foundation, inter alia, drew our attention to the fact that we have, since the inception of the insurance industry in South Africa, never regulated insurance agents. But now that many African insurance agents are emerging, we want almost to overregulate. When one is in agreement, however, with 95% of the Bill, how can one vote against the few anomalies that are there?
Let me rather now concentrate on the positive aspects of the Bill. With regard to medical schemes, the IFP has for many years called for an oversight relationship by the FSB of the financial aspects of medical schemes. We are therefore satisfied that this facility is enabled by this legislation. The Financial Advisory and Intermediary Services Bill regulates the business of rendering financial services to clients. It is encouraging that this Bill includes areas like the furnishing of advice on the purchase of or investment in financial products that are not regulated by any other legislative measure in the country. In that regard the Bill seeks to establish a newly properly regulated profession. From the IFP side we also hope, and we believe, that the question of pyramid schemes can also be dealt with and, in particular, those who claim that they are trying to do everything for the community whilst, in actual fact, they are the people who are ripping off the poor customers.
The result of this Bill will be the systemisation and the rationalisation of the current fragmented regulation of activities that are similar in nature. A more uniform approach, as well as the necessary standardisation in the regulation of such activities, by a single regulator will remove confusion and will result in a more professional and responsible intermediary sector. The clients of financial services, whose protection is at the heart of this Bill, will also be better informed.
During the drafting of the Bill a deliberate attempt was made to create regulatory flexibility by providing for circumscribed discretionery powers. Where the registrar’s powers are such as to increase the ability to act swiftly and decisively, checks and balances have been introduced to protect fundamental rights. Provision is made for consultation with the Advisory Committee on Financial Services Providers in the making of regulations on the requirements for authorisation as well as the drafting of codes of conduct. There are also provisions for the phasing in of authorisation provisions and the granting of appropriate exemptions where justified.
The Bill attracted a lot of interest in the financial services sector. Many comments on the Bill were received, all of which were considered by the drafters. The final text of the Bill is the result of a collective effort by the drafters and the interested parties who contributed to its content.
On something different, I could not help noticing that the defection Bills, with their constitutional consequences, are being fast-tracked in such great haste that they cannot even be translated. I reserve my comments on that and I do not raise an objection. However, it makes one think about the morality and the reasons behind the implementation of these particular Bills.
With regard to the Financial Advisory and Intermediary Services Bill I must advise that the IFP will support this Bill.
Ms S B NQODI: Chairperson and hon members of the House, one of the biggest challenges facing the Department of Finance at this point in time in our national democratic transformation is to create an economy that provides a better life for all. Having looked at some of our financial structures, their history, operations and impact on the lives of the people of this country, the promulgation of this piece of legislation became a necessity.
Over the years, either through our own personal experiences or by direct observation of what was happening to our family members, friends and colleagues, as consumers, we have at one stage or the other been exposed to and victimised by some unscrupulous operators in the financial services industry, such as insurance brokers, bank officials, managers and so on. For most of these financial advisers, the priority in their industry or business has been absolute profit maximisation for most of the time at the expense of the unsuspecting and sometimes ignorant clients who are sold inappropriate financial products of which very little is known. Due to the lack of knowledge, it has been difficult for the client to distinguish between good and bad financial products.
As stated, the main objectives of this Bill are to regulate the rendering of certain financial advisory and intermediary services and to repeal or amend certain laws as well as provide for matters incidental thereto. To put it more simply, and for the benefit of our common understanding, the Bill before us seeks to control and provide a regulatory framework for the financial services providers. These are entities providing advice on all kinds of financial products such as insurance policies, medical schemes, loans, bank or cash deposits, life, disability and funeral cover policies and financial investments of all kinds available on the market.
Because of the fragmented nature under which these entities have been operating, this Bill seeks to establish a new, properly regulated profession that is going to be more transparent, responsible and accountable to consumers. This will result in the streamlining and rationalisation of the current fragmented regulation of activities into one single regulatory body. Politically, therefore, this is a very progressive and transformatory Bill founded on the democratic principles of a fair, just and clean system of governance. As we all know, these are the cornerstones of our policy blueprint as Government, namely the RDP. It is for this reason that the ANC supports the passing of this legislation. As a consumer protection measure, the Bill covers new ground never before regulated by any other legislative measure in this country, especially with regard to the furnishing of advice on the purchase of or investment in financial products.
In the past, the determinants for access to full disclosure of available financial products, to credit and to better and more profitable products and financial institutions such as Boland and Saambou banks - hon members will remember this - were based on one’s skin colour and one’s social and economic status, even to the extent of one’s political affiliations amongst the white people themselves. The passing of this Bill will definitely recognise and improve both the social and economic status of most of the people of South Africa irrespective of race, gender and or political affiliation.
Given the profile and character of our society, however, which has been or is still distinguished by sharp divides in levels of literacy, socioeconomic differences, race and gender. Therefore most of the victims of these discriminatory policies and operations of the majority of the financial service providers mentioned earlier have been the poor, rural- based, illiterate blacks, especially women, widows and pensioners. They lost great amounts of money in savings schemes, bonds and other investment schemes through lack of access and exposure to better facilities and financial institutions.
These did not exclude aspiring black businesspeople and black professionals. They included teachers in the field of education, nurses in the health sector and those working in law and other professions. Because of those very discriminatory policies, even this group of people had limited choices or selection of the financial products or financial institutions, despite the fact that they had the resources. Often, because of their eagerness to save or invest the little money they had at their disposal, they fell into the traps and a cobweb of confusion as a result of exploitation, rip-offs and bad advice on the financial products available to and affordable by them in the market.
The passing of this Bill will ensure that clients being rendered financial services will henceforth be able to make informed decisions and that their financial needs, regarding the financial products sold to them, will be appropriately and suitably satisfied. This is an obligation which will be outlined in the code of conduct that will govern this industry. In this way, it is hoped that this Bill will open opportunities for improved savings and better investments for the majority of consumers through providing a wide selection and choice of financial products and institutions available and accessible to them. It is hoped that that will be effected through the immediate implementation of clause 32 of the Bill, which provides for, and I quote the ``promotion of client education by registrar’’ regarding financial services providers during the proposed phasing in of the Act.
An important quantifiable benefit outlined in the main report of the Financial Services Board, which was presented to the committee last year, was the creation of a complaints resolution mechanism for consumers, ie what is called the Office of the Ombud in the Bill. It is an important tenet of marketing that the consumer should beware. It behoves consumers to evaluate advice and product benefits for themselves before making firm commitments. It should be taken advantage of and exploited to the full.
Lastly, it is hoped that, through this Bill, the emerging previously disadvantaged brokers will be given a fair chance to participate in the financial services industry through an all-inclusive regulatory framework which gives recognition to different categories of intermediaries and financial providers. Most of them serve the black market and fall into the emerging category of brokers. In this way, competition and fair play among the various financial service providers will be encouraged. That, in return, will benefit consumers and clients. The ANC supports the Bill. [Applause.]
Dr P J RABIE: Mr Chairman, hon Deputy Minister and hon members, this Bill will regulate the business of rendering financial services to clients regarding a wide range of financial service products. What is significant is that providers of products need to be licensed and professional conduct will be controlled through adequate control measures.
The ambit of this Bill has been extended and covers ground not regulated by any other legislation, such as the furnishing of advice regarding investment in financial products. Financial advisers will not be able to absolve themselves if they sell questionable, nonviable products. The Bill is user-friendly and will provide a valuable systematisation and rationalisation of the current fragmented regulatory legal framework. The prime focus of this Bill is to protect clients in particular and consumers in general.
The financial sector is vitally important for sustained future economic growth. The question that must be asked is whether the existing legal framework provides adequate protection to vulnerable investors. I can mention numerous examples where investors were deliberately misled by empty promises of unattainably high rates of return. What is noteworthy is that this Bill, once promulgated, will be administered by the Financial Services Board, which is funded by a levy system imposed on the financial services industry.
What this, in essence, means is that this Bill has no financial, organisational or personnel implications for the state. The cost of compliance is stipulated. The creation of the office of the registrar of financial services providers is a very important step. Specific powers for the registrar to intervene swiftly and effectively will be to the benefit of all respective role-players concerned.
Voor die finalisering van dié konsepwet is daar met ‘n verteenwoordigende aantal belangegroepe in die finansiële sektor op ‘n deursigtige wyse gekonsulteer. Dit is my oordeel dat hierdie konsepwet nie inbreuk maak op die individuele regte, soos uiteengesit in die Grondwet nie en werklik kardinale leemtes vul; veral waar finansiële instellings of individue voornemende beleggers van advies bedien wat slegs korttermyn geldelike voordele vir die adviseur of verteenwoordigende finansiële instelling inhou en nie voornemende beleggings sonder enige regsaanspreeklikheid laat nie. Hierdie toedrag van sake sal verander ná dié wet gepromulgeer is.
Ander professionele kodes soos byvoorbeeld die regsberoep en die medisyneberoep het baie streng gedragskodes en daarom is dit ontsettend belangrik dat ons ook die professionele gedragskode wat betrekking het op finansiële adviseurs ook hieronder kategoriseer.
‘n Ander aspek wat genoem is deur die voorsitter van hierdie komitee, naamlik die posisie van mediese adviseur word goed beliggaam en goed bewoord in hierdie wet en beide hierdie twee belanggegroepe geakkommodeer word in hierdie wet. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)
[Before we finalised this draft Bill, we consulted in a transparent way with a representative number of interest groups in the financial sector. In my judgment, this draft Bill does not infringe on the individual rights as set out in the Constitution and it certainly; rectifies serious omissions; especially where financial institutions or individuals furnish prospective investors with advice that solely represents short-term benefits for the advisor or representative financial institution and does not leave prospective investments with any legal accountability. This state of affairs will change once this law has been promulgated.
Other professional codes, for instance, the legal and medical professions, have very strict codes of conduct and therefore it is extremely important that we also place the code of conduct pertaining to financial advisors in this category.
Another aspect that was mentioned by the chairman of this committee, namely the position of medical advisor is well-embodied and well-phrased in this legislation and both these two interest groups have been accommodated in this legislation.]
This Bill is much-needed and will contribute to a financial culture of universal ethical conduct, and transparent and fair business practice.
The New NP supports this Bill.
Dr G W KOORNHOF: Mr Chairperson and hon members, the Financial Advisory and Intermediary Services Bill is a first attempt to create a comprehensive, all-encompassing regulatory environment for the financial advice profession. This Bill seeks to regulate the function of giving financial advice to protect the interests of the public while also keeping the cost of compliance realistic.
The Bill deals with a number of important measures such as the following. Firstly, it deals with the codes of conduct with which authorised service providers and their representatives have to comply. Secondly, it deals with a range of duties of authorised financial services providers that needs to be carried out. Thirdly, it deals with a number of enforcement measures, including the creation of an independent ombud scheme for the resolution of disputes between authorised financial services providers or representatives and their clients. Hopefully, the financial advisory and intermediary services ombud will be appointed before the end of the current financial year.
The Bill before us now concludes a long consultative process, with the drafting process alone having lasted two years. The list of names of parties consulted on the Bill fills more than seven pages in this Bill. In addition, several public workshops and public radio and broadcast programmes were conducted on the Bill. It is true that consultations on this Bill were properly and extensively conducted. One of the reasons why this Bill was delayed recently was as a result of the standoff between the Financial Services Board and the Council for Medical Schemes for the control of health care intermediaries.
We are satisfied that the accreditation of health brokers by the Medical Schemes Act will not dilute the control over health brokers. Such accreditation will only take place provided that the fit and proper requirements of the FAIS Bill have been met by such health brokers. The health brokers will be subject to this Bill.
We congratulate the Ministries of Finance and Health on their efforts to reach an acceptable agreement on the control over health brokers. A special word of thanks, I think, is due to the Deputy Minister of Finance. We reject the argument that the Bill represents an overregulation and that it will be expensive to administer. This Bill is primarily for the protection of the public and clients of financial services providers.
The UDM supports the Financial Advisory and Intermediary Services Bill. [Applause.]
Mr L M GREEN: Chairperson, hon Ministers and members, prudent advice on good investments and savings is key to financial security and stability. Most ordinary people rely on trained agents and brokers to decide for them which schemes will make their money grow. This complete reliance on the integrity and honesty of the advisers or brokers was generally seen …
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! Hon members, I have appealed to you to heed my call, but at the moment I think that almost everyone, without exception, is taking part in different debates. [Interjections.] Those who are seated by themselves are excluded from that.
Order! Hon members, it is impossible for the person who is speaking here to try and address anyone when there is just about no one who is willing to listen. The hon member may proceed.
Mr L M GREEN: Chairperson, I said that this complete reliance on integrity and honesty of the advisers or brokers was generally sealed on the gentlemen’s agreement principle. However, legislation demanding ethical responsibility from the financial services provider was weak until now. The ACDP commends the Ministry of Finance for introducing this Bill because it aims to address that limitation.
The office of the ombud is particularly key to facilitating financial services providers’ obligations in regard to their clients. Clients, on the other hand, will enjoy reasonable access to lodge complaints where they can show that the services offered did not comply with ethical standards. The introduction of a code of conduct creates a legislative framework to protect both the client and company, and provides for the creation of trust in transactional agreements. The important aspect contained in this section is the transparency of information required, which will lead the client towards making an informed decision.
Clients usually come with diverse financial needs. What seems to happen is that, in certain cases, they leave a consultation having received a financial package that they eventually will not be able to sustain financially. This has often happened to the poorest of the poor. Many financial advisers create the impression that they care for the financial needs of their clients, but often the advice given results in the adviser getting the highest commission possible. The application of the code of conduct should help to allay some of the fears apparent within the sector.
The ACDP expresses its support for the view that the registration and licensing of intermediaries and financial advisers is a step in the right direction. Keeping appropriate administrative and accounting records will also seek to promote sound practice within the sector.
One of the concerns raised during the deliberations on this Bill was the cost of implementing the legislation. The overall assessment indicates that though there might be certain expenses incurred by the industry, the Bill holds certain benefits for the consumer that far outweigh the minimal loss to the sector. What this means is that fewer lapses of policies are likely to occur and that lower premiums and greater returns will help to generate better financial practices from both the industry and clients alike.
We have already seen how many companies as big as Enron and the accounting firm Arthur Andersen become involved in unethical conduct. We are all normally under the impression that bigger companies are supposed to operate under sound management. South Africa has its fair share of institutional weaknesses and weak ethical standards. The Bill removes this illusion that big is necessarily better by requiring all financial services providers to conform to legislative good practices rather than relying upon the limitations embedded in the principle of goodwill.
The ACDP therefore wholeheartedly supports this Bill.
Miss S RAJBALLY: Chairperson, I would like to make a humble appeal to all hon members: When I talk you shall listen. [Laughter.]
The MF takes its hat off to the department for having drawn up this Bill in the fashion in which it has. The subject has been researched and it covers a wide spectrum of the concerns relating to the Bill in question. Thus, the Bill provides clarity and better interpretation to the faculty that it covers.
The devising of a much more adequate and clear-cut guide to the doings of financial advisers and to those to whom service is being rendered is long overdue and is greatly needed. Regarding the Bill, it is pleasing to note the mechanisms that have been put in place in order to regulate its progress. The necessity to register oneself as a financial adviser will be to the advantage of both the profession and the person seeking such service.
The importance of proper regulation over financial advisory and intermediary services is most crucial in view of the need to protect the financial wellbeing of the person seeking assistance and the investor. The regulations, however, are not too strict or burdensome for the authorised financial services providers and their representatives. The MF feels that that should be considered.
It is appropriate that services will be rendered and monitored through this Bill. It proposes to protect the profession by marking out those who, like scavengers, work in the trade by catching consumers who seek professional assistance.
The MF supports this Bill. [Applause.]
Mr N M NENE: Chairperson, once again, the ANC’s commitment to the Freedom Charter is being demonstrated in this Bill. All people are equal before the law.
Financial services are rendered to all people of this country, rich and poor, educated and illiterate, black and white. The extent to which these products are understood has far-reaching implications for some of the clients and, more particularly, the semiliterate and the illiterate, who, in most cases, are poor and, unfortunately, black.
This Bill seeks to protect all clients, irrespective of their standing in society, black or white. At the heart of this Bill is the protection of the consumer against unscrupulous financial services providers. One of the things that this Bill does is to define what the financial products are and what a financial services provider is.
Further, it lays down the enforcement mechanisms, which I would like to focus on in this debate. An office of an independent and impartial ombud will be set up, and the objective of this office is to consider and dispose of all complaints in a procedurally fair, informal and expeditious manner.
It is expected that the financial services provider will, in terms of this Bill, make certain disclosures to the client. Financial services providers will have to disclose their commission, will have to explain the benefits to the clients, will have to furnish proof that the financial service provider is licensed and will also have to conduct a proper financial needs analysis for the clients, in order to render their appropriate services.
When dealing with a complaint, the ombud will have to do this with a reference to what is equitable in all circumstances with regard to the contractual arrangement, or any other legal relationship, between the client and financial services provider.
Once the ombud has considered the matter, a financial determination will be made, which may result in the dismissal of the complaint or the upholding of the complaint, wholly or partially, in which case the complainant may be awarded fair compensation for any financial prejudice or damage suffered, or a directive may be issued that the financial services provider, a representative or any other party concerned takes such steps in relation to the complaint as the ombud deems appropriate. The ombud may make any other order which a court of law may make.
The ombud is required to keep records and report annually to the Financial Services Board. This report must cover the affairs and functions of the ombud, including the annual financial statements, and copies should also be submitted to the Minister of Finance.
Provision is also made for financial service providers to embark on rigorous programmes to educate consumers, in order to make them aware of their rights, as far as this Bill is concerned.
In the name of transparency, more than 400 institutions and individuals were consulted and a number of hearings and submissions were made to arrive at the final product, and I am glad that most of the speakers highlighted this.
It has taken over two years of extensive consultation and a lot of public involvement to arrive at this final product. I take this opportunity to commend the Financial Services Board and the Ministry of Finance for the amount of work that has gone into this Bill, and wish them well in the implementation phase.
I am glad, also, that there was a response to the remark made by the hon Hennie Bekker about a shotgun being used to kill a fly. This is not at all overregulation. It is also interesting to note that the ACDP supports this Bill wholeheartedly. That is also highly commended.
However, in his speech, the hon Green mentioned some of the problems that we have had. He mentioned Enron and Arthur Andersen but he did not mention Miracle 2000. I think that was an omission.
The ANC supports this Bill. [Applause.]
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF FINANCE: Chairperson, I would like to thank all of the members who have participated in this debate. Perhaps it is more important to really thank the portfolio committee, because they did very thorough work on this piece of legislation, and I think that by its very nature this legislation required that kind of attention because, over time, there have been too many stories and too many experiences of people who have been hoodwinked, misled and all of these things. So, indeed, the work that the committee did on the legislation is very commendable.
Of course, the issue that was raised about industry capture is a matter that we are equally concerned about. Members will recall that from the early days of the new dispensation, consultation with consumer bodies was not even something that was on the cards, but now it is something that has become part and parcel of consultation.
What we are looking at now is actually beefing up the voice of consumers in these kinds of bodies that we set up to advise us. That is a matter that we are very concerned about.
The proposal about a full-on debate on the single regulator is, I think, a good one which I will take up with the Minister. Hon members would have already seen that the Financial Mail has fired the opening salvos on this. That was based on some interaction with us, with them sending us questions and us responding. I really think that it is an opportune time to consider that.
About some of the issues raised by the hon Taljaard, who I can see is here, I think that it must be said that the concerns raised are valid concerns but, at the same time, I think that in legislating in the way that we are doing we must also understand that we cannot, in this day and age, have laissez faire even in the financial services industry. Again, there have been too many experiences and too many failures. Here in South Africa alone, we can talk of quite a number. We do not even have to go to Enron and others. We can talk Regal, we can talk Miracle 2000 and so on.
There really is a need for us to make sure that the growth and development of any sector happen on the basis of good practices, because I think that if sectors grow on the basis of bad practices, then we are not serving the long-term interests of our economy and our people.
Of course, we have got to be balanced in the way that we legislate. I also think part of the issue here is that the cost of regulation to industry must always be weighed against the cost suffered by consumers and investors when we do not have the kind of regulation that ensures we can prevent failures. So we always have to balance those two issues.
The responsibility of consumers is an important point and, in our view, the responsibility of consumers can best be exercised when consumers are enlightened. So, on the issue of consumer education, we amended the Financial Services Board legislation to make it mandatory for the FSB to conduct consumer education. This becomes an important point here. People will be able to exercise responsibility when they have that enlightenment, but also when there is disclosure. That gives the people the information for them to be able to make decisions. However, we appreciate the points being raised. Clearly, as we implement this legislation and as we learn from practical experience, we shall have to come back to all of these issues and refine, strengthen and tighten things as we gain experience. But, indeed, I would like to thank all the members for participating in the debate.
Perhaps the point I did not touch upon is the issue of the Policyholder Protection Rules. Again, this is a matter that we have to have in this way, in the transition to the new dispensation, because we want to make sure that we do not have things that fall through the cracks as we migrate from the old to the new.
We have discussed this matter with the industry, to say that we do not intend to create hardships for them, but it is important for us to retain these in the meantime, because we will have financial services providers who, for one reason or another, are not registered in terms of the provisions of this particular legislation. We must still be able to cover them as well. [Applause.] Debate concluded.
Bill read a second time.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! Hon members, you are reminded that you are all cordially invited to the President’s cocktail party in the Old Assembly dining hall. The hon Minister in the Presidency says it will be now, so he will direct you to where it is.
The House adjourned at 17:56.