WEDNESDAY, 19 JUNE 2002 __

          PROCEEDINGS OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
                                ____

The Council met at 15:05.

The Deputy Chairperson took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayers or meditation.

ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS - see col 000.

                          NOTICES OF MOTION

Mr K D S DURR: Chairperson, I give notice that I shall move at the next sitting of the House:

That the Council -

(1) notes -

   (a)  the results of the exhaustive 10-month-old  study  conducted  by
       the City of Cape Town's IDP team  to  identify  the  needs  that
       Capetonians want local government to meet;


   (b)   that  the  process  included  extensive  surveys,  public   and
       stakeholder consultation and market analysis; and


   (c)  that, according to the representative household survey  among  1
       200 residents, Capetonians were unanimous that crime  (99%)  and
       unemployment (98%) were the top issues to be addressed;

(2) therefore notes with alarm that the rate of cash-van heists in greater Cape Town has shot up by 300% to 24 in the first six months of the year as opposed to 6 for the same period last year;

(3) also notes that Organised Crime detective, Gavin Brink, and his team have identified and obtained warrants for the arrest of the six most wanted suspects linked to one or more of the heists; and

(4) wishes the team well in their quest to end this plague of robberies in Cape Town, and urges the authorities to give them every assistance to make this possible.

Mrs E N LUBIDLA: Chairperson, I give notice that I shall move at the next sitting of the House:

That the Council -

(1) notes with concern the reports over alleged practices of corruption by certain Department of Correctional Services officials at the Grootvlei Prison in Bloemfontein;

(2) expresses its appreciation at the efforts of the Minister and his department to expose all kinds of corruption within the Department of Correctional Services;

(3) commends those responsible for blowing the whistle on this corruption; and

(4) believes their noteworthy actions are in line with the Government’s zero-tolerance approach towards corruption and with the call by our President on South Africans to blow the whistle on corruption within the Public Service.

CONSTITUTIONAL COURT DECISION REGARDING PROVISIONS OF MAGISTRATES ACT

                         (Draft Resolution)

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE COUNCIL: Chairperson, I move without notice:

That the Council -

(1) welcomes the decision of the Constitutional Court with regard to the constitutionality of certain provisions of the Magistrates Act;

(2) notes that the Constitutional Court overturned the High Court judgment of Mr Justice Southwood who, in his judgment, among others referred to the magistrates’ profession as the personal fiefdom of the Minister for Justice and Constitutional Development;

(3) further notes that most of the provisions that were found to be unconstitutional by Justice Southwood were crucial to the transformation of the magistrates’ profession;

(4) believes the Constitutional Court judgment is a vindication of the arguments of the Minister for Justice and Constitutional Development; and

(5) further believes the decision will lay a firm basis for the acceleration of transformation within the magistrates’ profession.

Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.

               ALLEGATIONS BASED ON UNTESTED EVIDENCE

                         (Draft Resolution)

Me E C GOUWS: Voorsitter, ek stel hiermee sonder kennis voor:

 Dat die Raad -


 (1)    kennis neem van die feit dat  agb  Nuwe  NP-lede  van  die  Raad
     afleidings gemaak het oor finansiële steun  aan  DA-lede  op  grond
     van die  ongetoetste  getuienis  van  die   hoogs  ongeloofwaardige
     Duitse krimineel Harksen;


 (2)    die genoemde agb lede adviseer om nie  voortydig  afleidings  te
     maak nie;


 (3)    hulle verwys na die resultate van die kruisverhoor van  Harksen;
     en


 (4)     hulle   versoek   om   verskoning   aan   te   bied   vir   hul
     onverantwoordelike aantygings.

[Tussenwerpsels.] (Translation of Afrikaans motion without notice follows.)

[Ms E C GOUWS: Chairperson, I move without notice: That the Council -

(1) notes the fact that hon New NP members of the Council have come to conclusions about financial aid to DA members on the grounds of untested evidence by the highly unreliable German criminal Harksen;

(2) advises the said hon members not to come to conclusions prematurely;

(3) refers them to the outcome of the cross-examination of Harksen; and

(4) requests them to tender their apologies for their irresponsible allegations.

[Interjections.]]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Order! Is there any objection to that motion? There is an objection. The motion therefore becomes notice of a motion.

             SUCCESSES OF GAUTENG COMMERCIAL CRIMES UNIT

                         (Draft Resolution)

Prince B Z ZULU: Chairperson, I move without notice:

That the Council -

(1) notes that more than one thousand people have been arrested and at least R62 million recovered in Gauteng since the beginning of the year;

(2) congratulates the members of the Gauteng commercial crimes unit on their outstanding work in securing these arrests; and

(3) hopes their success will inspire other units to work with the same commitment and dedication in bringing alleged criminals to book.

Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.

               MEASURES TO INCREASE ACCESS TO JUSTICE

                         (Draft Resolution) Mr T RALANE: Chairperson, I move without notice:

That the Council -

(1) welcomes the announcement by the Minister for Justice and Constitutional Development that some 1 985 posts are to be created to take the pressure off magistrates in their administrative tasks;

(2) also welcomes the announcement that six new magistrates courts are to be built this year; and

(3) believes these announcements are proof of the commitment of the Minister to increase access to justice for ordinary South Africans.

Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.

                     UNITED NATIONS FOOD SUMMIT

                         (Draft Resolution)

Ms M P THEMBA: Chairperson, I move without notice: That the Council -

(1) notes the positive contributions made by President Thabo Mbeki and the United Nations’ Secretary-General, Kofi Annan, at the United Nations Food Summit in Rome;

(2) affirms that the right to food is a fundamental human right and its promotion constitutes a moral imperative for the international community; and

(3) notes with regret the disappointing response of developing countries towards the summit.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Order! Is there any objection to that motion? There is an objection. The motion therefore becomes notice of a motion.

           TENSION BETWEEN TWO COMMUNITIES OF SCHMIDSDRIFT

                         (Draft Resolution)

Mnr J HORNE: Voorsitter, ek stel hiermee sonder kennis voor: Dat die Raad -

(1) met kommer kennis neem van die beweerde verkragting en moord van ‘n Xhu-vrou deur ‘n Khwe-man wat gelei het tot ernstige spanning tussen die twee gemeenskappe van Schmidsdrift in die Noord-Kaap; en

(2) ‘n ernstige dog dringende beroep doen op die twee gemeenskappe om die relevante owerhede geleentheid te gee om die beweerde misdaad te ondersoek en om nie die reg in eie hande te neem nie sodat kalmte en vrede herstel kan word. (Translation of Afrikaans motion without notice follows.)

[Mr J HORNE: Chairperson, I move without notice:

That the Council -

(1) notes with concern the alleged rape and murder of a Xhu woman by a Khwe man, which led to serious tension between the two communities of Schmidsdrift in the Northern Cape; and

(2) makes a serious but urgent appeal to the two communities to give the relevant authorities the opportunity to investigate the alleged crime and not to take the law into their own hands, so that calm and peace can be restored.]

Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.

           TEXTS OF CERTAIN BILLS TO BE SENT TO PRESIDENT

                         (Draft Resolution)

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE COUNCIL: Chairperson, I move without notice:

That, notwithstanding Joint Rule 221 and subject to the concurrence of the National Assembly, the official texts of the following bills without delay be sent to the President without the official translations, the official translations to follow as a matter of urgency:

(1) Constitution of the Republic of South Africa Amendment Bill [B 16B - 2002]; (2) Constitution of the Republic of South Africa Second Amendment Bill [B 17D - 2002];

(3) Local Government: Municipal Structures Amendment Bill [B 22B - 2002]; and

(4) Loss or Retention of Membership of National and Provincial Legislatures Bill [B 25B - 2002].

Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.

             USE OF A SOLEMN OCCASION FOR POLITICAL GAIN

                         (Draft Resolution)

Mrs E N LUBIDLA: Chairperson, I move without notice:

That the Council -

(1) notes with contempt the attempt by the DP/FF alliance to use a solemn occasion such as the funeral of the late Mr Peter Mokaba for political gain;

(2) notes that the DA’s accusations come at a time when yet another corruption scandal has rocked the DA, this time involving its Western Cape provincial chairperson;

(3) strongly believes that the DA leader has no credible defence against the charges of corruption levelled against his party; and

(4) is of the opinion that the accusations of the DA are merely an attempt to deflect public attention from the deep crisis in which the DA finds itself.

[Interjections.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Order! Order! Is there any objection to that motion? There is an objection. The motion therefore becomes notice of a motion.

     RESPONSE TO CHANTING OF ``KILL THE FARMER; KILL THE BOER!''

                         (Draft Resolution)

Ms C-S BOTHA: Chairperson, I move without notice: That the Council -

(1) takes note with gratitude of the stance of the Minister of Defence and the President, Mr Mbeki, in their condemnation of the attitude of the people who used the chant: ``Kill the farmer; kill the boer-!’’ as a call to racist action; and

(2) requests members of the Council who on 18 June 2002 voted down a motion which asked for exactly that sentiment to reconsider their views, particularly in the light of what their fellow ANC members have said.

[Interjections.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Order! Is there any objection to that motion? There is an objection. The motion therefore becomes notice of a motion.

                     LEAVE OF ABSENCE TO MEMBER

                         (Draft Resolution)

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE COUNCIL: Chairperson, I move the motion as printed in my name on the Order Paper:

That leave of absence be granted to Rev M Chabaku for the period 27 May 2002 to 30 June 2002.

Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.

                         APPROPRIATION BILL

                           (Policy debate)

Vote No 20 - Correctional Services:

Vote No 21 - Defence:

Vote No 23 - Justice and Constitutional Development:

Vote No 24 - Safety and Security:

The MINISTER FOR JUSTICE AND CONSTITUTIONAL DEVELOPMENT: Chairperson, Deputy President … [Laughter.] Did I say Deputy President? [Laughter.] I must apologise for unwittingly suggesting the demotion of the Deputy President. [Laughter.] My apologies.

Chairperson, it is my pleasure to report to this honourable House the efforts of my Ministry and our cluster at fulfilling the promise we have made, that is of serving our people to the best of our ability. As we observed last Friday, we locate our work firmly within the four walls of the President’s vision of a New Partnership for Africa’s Development.

Part of what we undertake to do in this context is to promote a collective commitment to democracy, the entrenchment of fundamental rights and freedoms for all people, including women and children, good governance and the rule of law, underpinned by an array of adequately resourced enforcement mechanisms so that our country becomes a positively infectious prototype, a beacon of hope and a shining example for the rest of the world.

During the past year we visited several courts throughout the country. In certain areas we found the prevailing conditions unacceptable and not conducive to service. Consequently, my department has reprioritised the budget allocation and we intend to report what we are seeking to achieve by way of upgrading the infrastructure.

Nine new magistrates’ courts are ready to be inaugurated, 39 major works services are currently under construction, 51 courts in mostly rural areas are on our repair and maintenance programme for the current MTEF period, and 31 justice centres have already been launched by the Legal Aid Board and 7 more are scheduled to be launched this year as part of a major roll- out plan. This hefty shift from judicare, it should be noted, has already halved the cost of provision of professional legal assistance to the most indigent in both civil and criminal matters.

Nine community safety centres have benefited or will be benefiting from our national community safety centre programme. The construction of six new court buildings will commence this year, funds permitting. Our emphasis is on the provision of facilities in areas of greatest need. The construction of new court buildings at Khayelitsha, Blue Downs, Botshabelo, Atteridgeville, Bothithong, Atamelang and Muldersdrift clearly demonstrates my and my department’s determination in this regard. In addition, a contract for a new building at Tembisa should be awarded within the next four months. The estimated amount for all this is R45 million.

I am also pleased to inform this House that the sod-turning ceremony of the new building for the Constitutional Court in Johannesburg, which is going to form part of the Constitutional Hill Legacy Project, took place on 18 October last year. This is our single most significant project in execution, as it will not only provide the highest court of our country with appropriate accommodation, but it will also be the first major public building of the new era of constitutionalism and democracy.

Reducing critical case backlogs and the population of prisoners awaiting trial is one of our major challenges as a cluster. To be successful we must implement an integrated package of solutions. The modernisation of our criminal justice system, known as the Integrated Justice System, must serve as the backbone of our partnership. We have made great strides in developing a criminal and civil case management system called the Court Process Project.

At the Durban magistrates’ court a pilot project has been established to develop one of the world’s first integrated methods of managing courts and caseloads. The overall objective is to reduce the average case-cycle time. The project has already yielded the following results: 4 500 cases have been electronically managed in seven courts since the beginning of October last year; 718 juvenile cases were attended to in the same period; since February this year lost dockets have become a thing of the past in cases where this intervention has already been introduced; no postponements have been experienced as a result of lost charge sheets; and no cases of wrong identification of accused persons have been reported since the beginning of the implementation of the project.

We are currently rolling out the project to Johannesburg. The integrated case management system will be a world first when completed, notwithstanding an extremely limited budget.

Other initiatives that will impact on service delivery include the following: the Digital Nervous System - all courts will be provided with electronic infrastructure by the end of October next year; the establishment of the Intranet; the court manager’s programme; the introduction of mechanisms to reduce the awaiting-trial prisoner population; and the development of a civil solution which will eliminate the use of hard copies as all case documents will be online from that critical date.

Let me just highlight a few of our other endeavours. Firstly, under the leadership of the Chief Justice we are considering consolidated legislation that will deal with the whole court hierarchy. This includes the rationalisation of high courts and lower courts.

Secondly, we are ready to implement several important recommendations relating to the interim rationalisation of the jurisdiction of some of the seats of the High Court under the High Court Act of 2001. This will impact positively on access to justice in five provinces.

Thirdly, the re-demarcation of magisterial boundaries has largely been finalised and I am awaiting a report in this regard.

Lastly, we are furthermore on the verge of introducing a new local, decentralised court support services model, based on locating the delivery of support services at the closest point to customers, that is, the courts. It is a feature of this model that support services are not delivered from the regional level. I will therefore be phasing out regional offices. This system is intended to co-ordinate the efforts of those who manage the entirety of the system, from the police to the prosecution authority, the judiciary and Correctional Services in a goal-oriented manner.

The Integrated Justice System court centre project is currently being implemented on a pilot basis at 23 courts throughout the country, particularly where case backlogs are unacceptably high. The establishment of a court performance review committee to oversee performance and service delivery at courts has led to the establishment of emergency teams to assist in this respect.

The following statistics will indicate the fact that the criminal justice system is improving progressively in its objective to help make South Africa safer.

Firstly, sentenced prisoners increased from 115 267 in April 2001 to 123 498 in March 2002. Secondly, district courts finalised 313 822 cases in 2001, an increase from 219 416 cases in 1999. Thirdly, regional courts, where the more serious cases are heard, also dealt with 44 301 cases in 2001, in comparison with the 28 579 cases in 1999. We have also managed to reduce the outstanding cases in the regional courts from 45 473 in 2001 to 42 877 in 2002. Lastly, during 2001 the high courts achieved a 77% conviction rate, the regional courts 66% and the district courts 83%.

Partly responsible for these achievements was the continuation of our Saturday and additional courts project. This very successful project was broadened in March this year to an average of 104 Saturday courts. Thirty- one more courts are currently participating in the project. The Saturday courts sat on average five hours and 15 minutes per Saturday in March, and finalised 1 630 cases, each with a verdict, in March 2002.

Eighty-four additional courts, which finalised 1 972 cases, participated in the project this past March, compared to 37 additional courts last year. The conviction rate of all the Saturday and additional courts in March this year was 75%. Up to March 2002, 21 924 cases had been finalised on the basis of this project since its inception in February last year. We have already exceeded the target of 15 000 cases. While it may be tempting in certain circles to suggest that the judiciary is not transforming, the figures tell a different story. Whereas in 1994 there were only two women judges and one black judge, today there are 23 women and 76 black judges out of a total of 204. Out of a total of 1 662 magistrates, 794 are black and 428 are women. [Applause.]

My department has prioritised the protection of children in the criminal justice system. The Child Justice Bill which deals with children accused of crimes will be introduced to Parliament shortly. As a society we need to deal aggressively with the scourge of child abuse. The full might of the law needs to be used against child abusers, no matter who they are; religious leaders included.

There is no backing down in making choices in order to make a difference in the lives of our people, especially those trapped in the cycle of poverty and underdevelopment. In fact, our President, in his Youth Day address in Bloemfontein this past Sunday identified homelessness, hunger and poverty as the country’s new enemy. To quote the President:

For it is this battle that will take us to the destination of sustained development and prosperity for our people.

It is essential that we persist in our attempts to provide opportunities to women in order to combat all forms of violence, poverty, hunger and homelessness. The quest to come up with an effective and practical maintenance system has therefore become the obsession of a number of experts, both from within Government and in the private sector.

Relating to the progress on the implementation of the Maintenance Act of 1998, I would like to highlight the following aspects. Firstly, the National Prosecuting Authority is in the process of finalising the appointment of 80 maintenance officers and 10 senior maintenance prosecutors.

Secondly, the department is very conscious of the need to ensure the progressive realisation of the appointment of maintenance investigators. An amount of R20 million has already been set aside to kick-start the implementation of the law in this regard.

Lastly, the department has further prioritised maintenance within a project called the Footprint for Justice in South Africa. In this regard financial transactions will be diverted through automation via our banks, the South African Post Office and even ATMs.

Our interdepartmental management team requires R20 million for our anti- rape research and strategy focus. The research process aims to look into the prevention of rape, how effectively the criminal justice system responds to rape, and to evaluate the support structures that exist for victims as well as offenders. Simultaneously, the team will embark on processes to deal with the crisis where appropriate, while placing emphasis on building the new.

The impact of commercial crime has necessitated a collective effort by Government and business. As a result, two focused commercial court pilot projects have been established in Gauteng and are operational to provide the much-needed specialisation in complex commercial crime cases. More of these courts will become operative very soon.

On 12 June 2002 the Constitutional Court set aside a Johannesburg High Court ruling declaring a section of the Prevention of Organised Crime Act constitutionally invalid. The victory is an important one for justice and the National Prosecuting Authority, as it will allow us to continue with court action aimed at freezing assets in about 30 cases currently delayed.

In my address to the House of Traditional Leaders in March this year, I reported the following. Firstly, in terms of section 8 of the Justices of the Peace and Commissioners of Oaths Act, 1963, I have, through Government Notice No R1180 of 17 November 2000, designated all duly appointed traditional leaders as ex officio commissioners of oath.

This is an important measure to ensure that the administration of justice is brought closer to the communities. The department has taken the further step of making traditional leaders aware of their powers by conducting workshops in this regard. Procedure manuals on the role of commissioners of oaths have also been distributed to the traditional leaders.

Schedule 6 of the Constitution provides that ``every court, including courts of traditional leaders, existing when the new Constitution took effect, continues to function and to exercise jurisdiction in terms of the legislation applicable to it.’’ As such, there is no question about the existence of traditional courts, and the Constitution recognises and protects them.

Traditional courts have both civil and criminal jurisdiction. In so far as criminal jurisdiction is concerned, traditional courts have jurisdiction over statutory offences and offences in terms of common law, except those specified under the third schedule of the Black Administration Act of 1927. The excluded offences are mainly the most serious offences, such as treason, sedition, murder, culpable homicide, rape, arson and robbery.

In civil cases, traditional courts may award compensation and restitution to successful parties and may also, in appropriate cases, require an apology for the wronged party in order to promote reconciliation.

If a party is not satisfied with the decision of the traditional court, he or she may note an appeal to the magistrate’s court with jurisdiction over the district concerned; and further appeals may be taken to the High Court, the Supreme Court of Appeal and, if I may say so, the Constitutional Court itself. A challenge we are facing is to ensure that proceedings in the traditional courts are conducted in a manner which is compatible with the Constitution. In this regard, comprehensive legislation is necessary to promote compliance with the fundamental human rights enshrined in our Constitution.

Essentially, the legal task of implementing our Constitution and thus creating a human rights-based order is the responsibility of my department. Justice has had over 85 key new pieces of legislation passed in the past seven years, including the Promotion of Administrative Justice Act, the Promotion of Access to Information Act and equality legislation. The impact of these new pieces of legislation is phenomenal. They have to be administered, financed and monitored, needless to say.

As things stand, the focus of attention of my relatively small department is scattered over a very wide range of far-reaching transformation processes. Nevertheless, as I stated in my Budget Vote speech, I have seven priorities. These are: filling most of the existing vacancies, particularly in the National Prosecuting Authority and the magistracy to improve service delivery; reducing critical case backlogs and the numbers of prisoners awaiting trial; introducing a new court management system; improving budgeting and financial management systems; having more courts and improved service delivery in places of most need; having an effective maintenance and child support system; and restructuring the Master’s offices.

I want to express my appreciation for the assistance we receive from the legal profession, the most prominent aspect of which is the service they render as acting presiding officers in the small claims court, lower court and High Court, free of charge in most instances.

Lastly, I also want to take this opportunity to thank all the hon members for the understanding they exhibit of the efforts that we are making, and to thank my cluster colleagues for the good work that we want to believe we are doing together and for the spirit in which our business and meetings are conducted. [Applause.] Kgoshi M L MOKOENA: Chairperson, during the budget briefing by the department of Safety and Security on 14 May some questions were asked by committee members. Some were partly answered, some were not.

The department promised to come back to us with a response as soon as possible. They even promised to come back to us before 18 June. I personally made some follow-ups, but to no avail. A three-lined letter in response only came yesterday after I phoned them in the morning. If members of this committee and their respected chairperson, who is handsome … [Laughter] … are not be taken seriously by the department, then what about uJwara, Mofokeng, Chirwali or Magubane out there?

We agreed as a committee that as the department is not ready to give us some answers, we are left with no choice or option but to direct our questions to the hon the Minister. I am now doing exactly that. Is the hon the Minister aware that since 1994 in the Presidential Protection Unit here in Cape Town, at Tuynhuys, only men have been promoted to senior positions, to the ranks of officers? The department was asked to verify this information, but apparently they were too busy to do so. Whoever is responsible for providing names or recommending names to the Minister has not done his or her homework properly.

The first item I want to mention is how the department is dealing with corruption amongst its members. Are we on course in transforming this department? How are we dealing with some racial tendencies or practices among members of the Police Service, especially in key units in the department? It is encouraging to learn that the level of crime in this country is going down. We can only urge our Police Service to keep up the good work.

During our provincial week in March we visited some police stations and discovered the following: a shortage of vehicles and staff; very few facilities to enable those stations to function properly; an instance of one investigation officer handling more than 30 dockets; a shortage of office accommodation; very few police stations with victim support centres. All these things need money. Can I, on behalf of all our police stations in this country, plead with the Minister that in the next budget provision is made to cater for these urgent needs?

The next item is the question of rape cases, which is a bit problematic. Our courts need to be consistent when dealing with the question of rape. There are trends in the interpretation of the minimum sentence principle in case law. Recent case law relating to rape has illustrated the tension between individualisation and uniformity of sentencing practices by the South African judiciary. Vague terminology within the Criminal Procedure Amendment Act has led to inconsistency in highly controversial interpretations of mandatory minimum services.

In my humble opinion, I think the core problem is the phrase ``substantial and compelling circumstances’’ used in the Act. Establishing the true meaning of the phrase has led to a series of widely divergent constructions in the High Court. I know the hon Minister will say something about this.

Another item is that I learnt the SA Law Commission is proposing that a draft Bill called ``Sentencing Framework Bill’’ be introduced in Parliament. We are waiting eagerly for it. Perhaps this Bill can solve some of our problems in regard to sentencing.

The next item I want to bring up is the delay in finalising cases, which is cause for concern. Surprisingly, investigating officers are blaming prosecutors, and prosecutors are blaming the investigating officers. I think the time for pointing fingers has long passed. We need some action.

Another item I want to mention is Grootvlei Prison. Can I really say something about the recent startling revelations? No, I do not think so. Maybe later. I am just embarrassed. Let the Minister deal with it, not me. But if I had my way, I would take a truck, load up all those prison warders and dump them somewhere.

There was a time when prisons were there to punish people, not to rehabilitate them. The programmes introduced by the department are welcome. One must look at what our prisoners have done. An example is at the Mutshalingana school. Those prisoners are excelling. I can only urge the Minister to do the same in other prisons.

Next, if I could pose this question to the House, I know I will get different answers. Who is responsible for the overcrowding in our prisons? Is it that the police are arresting many criminals? Is it that cases are piling up unnecessarily? Is it that our prisons cannot accommodate more than expected? What is the reason? I say: Do not mind, the Minister will respond.

My next question is: How far are we with the establishment of an integrated justice system, IJS, task team whose aim was to develop solutions to the problem of awaiting-trial prisoners? How far are we with the implementation of electronic monitoring? This would also include a proposal by the department to use the inmate tracking system.

The next issue is that there was a time when the role of our SANDF, then called the SADF, was to shoot and kill the so-called enemies of the state. We are proud to say our Defence Force is now involved in crime prevention, street patrol, etc. They are always available to give a hand in times of need. Their efforts do not go unnoticed.

My next item is that there is a call by the department to young South Africans to join or participate in the military skills development programme. One must just listen as I know the Minister will unpack what this is all about.

The next thing I want to say is that the sooner we get rid of the uncalled- for racial tendencies in our Defence Force the better. These tendencies have no place in our force. Whilst we understand that members of this force come from different backgrounds, we can only remind them to set aside their interests and put the interests of the country first, or vest their interests in their decorated graves.

I would like to thank the four departments for working as a unit. The light at the end of this tunnel is very bright. Teamwork makes common people attain uncommon results. The greatest thing in the world is not so much where we are, but in what direction we are moving. Again, I have spoken. [Applause.]

Mr P A MATTHEE: Chairperson, in the first instance I wish to thank the Minister of Defence for having a meeting with the delegation from the New NP yesterday, almost immediately after having been requested, in order to discuss our concerns regarding the chanting of the infamous slogan that was referred to. We agreed that a successful South African nation is dependent on good intercommunity relationships, and that the fight is against poverty, disease and crime. This requires a joint effort by all communities.

There is no place in society today for slogans such as ``Kill the boer, kill the farmer’’ which serve to divide rather than to unite. Also, at the funeral, in fact, a member of Mr Mokaba’s own family repudiated those chanting the slogan, saying that the emphasis of the pre-1994 struggle was inappropriate given our late colleague’s efforts to bring about reconciliation in the new South Africa. It is unfortunate that this was not reflected in reports on the funeral.

I also wish to thank the Minister of Safety and Security for meeting, almost immediately after having been so requested, with a delegation from my party yesterday regarding our concerns pertaining to the farm attacks and murders, in the light of the gruesome murder over the weekend of the late Mr and Mrs Dent on their farm in KwaZulu-Natal in the presence of their young boy. Our delegation was both impressed with the Minister’s seriousness and the sense of urgency with which he approached this problem. It is clear to us that he is committed to finding a solution to the serious problem of farm attacks and murders. We thank him for that.

In reply to my question to the Deputy President last year, he stated that the stabilisation of crime levels was targeted to take place during the period 2001-2003 and that the normalisation of crime levels, compared to ``international standards’’ - those were his words - was targeted to take place during the period 2003 to 2009.

During the President’s review debate on 13 November 2001, I requested the President to consider ordering an investigation into the possibility of realistically bringing the date for the normalisation of crime levels compared to international standards forward to the end of 2005, instead of the end of 2009. This will of course entail a proper analysis as to what is required by the different departments and those departments involved in poverty relief, because we will only be able to sustain lower levels of crime if we also succeed in effectively addressing poverty.

In his reply to the debate, the hon the President said that he agreed with me that we could shorten the periods which were mentioned by the Deputy President. He continued to say that he could not see why we should not, and he said that he was of the opinion that we should have a look at that. He also said that he was not quite sure what was meant by ``international levels’’ and referred to the fact that London, for instance, had much higher rates of car theft than South Africa, and that there are countries in Western Europe that have higher rates of car hijacking than we have.

One of the very first questions that we have to find an answer to is therefore: what is meant by the ``normalisation of crime levels compared to international standards’’, as per the answer from the Deputy President? In other words, exactly what is it that we want to achieve by 2009, in respect of the levels of crime and what we want to bring forward now?

The one thing that we know is that our present levels of crime, especially in respect of violent crime, are still unacceptably high. We have already succeeded in stabilising the crime levels of most serious crime in our country, even before 2003. We have succeeded in reaching that already.

The other thing that we know is that crime is costing our country and our economy many billions of rands, both in direct costs as well as indirect costs - not to talk about the many innocent lives lost and the terrible human suffering and hardship to thousands of South Africans. However, what we do not know, is the exact extent of the direct and indirect monetary costs to our economy. People come up with different amounts, but no one can tell us exactly what it is costing our economy.

The other fact which we know is that there is a widely held perception, especially overseas, that South Africa is an unsafe country in respect of personal safety and security, and that corruption is rife. This is usually given by them as one of the most important reasons we do not get more direct investment from the international business world, and also why we do not get more tourists, in spite of all our other plus factors.

The high level of crime is also given as one of the main reasons for the so- called brain drain, why we ultimately cannot succeed in getting a higher growth rate for our economy and why we cannot succeed in creating more employment opportunities. Yet we do not know how much more direct investment we may get, how many more tourists may come and how much more our economy will grow, and how many more job opportunities we will be able to create if we succeed, to use the Deputy President’s words, ``in normalising our crime levels according to international standards’’.

On the other hand, we have huge shortages in respect of both equipment and properly trained personnel in all our criminal justice departments, because of budgetary constraints. We are all aware of this and this has been referred to many a time.

Has the time not arrived for us to tackle all these unanswered questions head-on and to get answers to all these uncertainties? Here I mean answers also from those abroad who come up with this as - I do not want to say an excuse - a reason for not investing more in our country. Once we know in monetary terms what crime is costing South Africa annually, and once we know what it will cost to address all these shortages, and what is required, and what it will cost to bring forward the date as mentioned, we will be in a much better position to make informed decisions as to what is required. Has the time not come for us to ask the G8 countries what it is then, in respect of crime levels, that they require for this not to be a factor in considering direct investment in our country? What is it that they want? Let us go to them and ask them. Then they should also say if we achieve that, what is the extent to which they will then be prepared to invest? [Time expired.] [Applause.]

Ms C SEOPOSENGWE (Northern Cape): Mr Chairperson, hon members, delegates to the NCOP, allow me to confirm that our police service, the one that we have fought for and struggled for so hard, is surely taking shape. We are indeed beginning to see a police service that identifies with the needs of the communities which they serve, one that identifies with the principle that the police is the community, and the community is the police. The principle is: Police from the community, through the community, for the community.

It is therefore evident that, apart from the criminal element, which is in the minority anyway, the majority of our people are law-abiding citizens of this country, and are indeed supporting our members in blue who so tirelessly strive to render our communities safe, secure and crime-free.

I would like to congratulate the police in our province for a job well done. Hon members should watch the news tonight. This is a clear message to those who come to our province to steal the minerals and the royalties of our poor communities in the middle of the night. The Northern Cape is a no- go area for ``diamantsmokkelaars’’ [diamond smugglers]. If someone wants to buy diamonds, there are procedures for do so. With respect to the Kua and Khwe communities, I want to report to this House that the situation is under control and a suspect will be apprehended soon.

It is members of this police service who have rid, and who will continue with their endeavours to rid, provinces of the criminal element and remain committed to providing a quality service that meets the needs of our communities.

The police service is giving priority attention to the improvement of service delivery to the communities in all provinces by focusing on the eight Batho Pele principles.

In the Northern Cape emphasis is placed on the five priority stations of Galeshewe - which is also the provincial presidential station - Kimberley, Roodepan, Upington and Pabalello.

Progress in some of the priority areas identified for improvement is as follows. All visible policing vehicles were clearly marked. Area crime intelligence teams were expanded and individuals co-opted to the priority stations. Notice boards were put up in community service centres to improve communication and information-sharing with the community. Flexi-hours are being worked to overcome shortages in human resources during peak hours. Administrative personnel and management teams regularly do operational duties in high-crime areas. The capacity and competencies of investigators are being enhanced through coaching and mentorship by means of inspections and training. Three hundred and eighty-four investigators were exposed to in-service training and 10 detectives received formal training. One thousand three hundred and sixty-nine reservists operate as force multipliers, and are being utilised where stations experience a shortage of personnel. These reservists worked a total of 368 688 hours and made a total of 9 927 arrests. Satellite police stations are functioning in Kagisho, Koopmansfontein, Nonzwakazi, Hutchinson, Kakamas, Louisvale and Oranjeweg. A new police station at Oranjeweg is under construction and will be upgraded to a fully fledged station upon completion. We are proud to report that 20 members of the police service who work in the community service centres and in the child protection unit will be trained in sign language to enhance their communication skills in serving communities. We hope to roll out this training intervention to other stations in the province.

A service delivery improvement best practice that is worth mentioning is the restructuring of the detective service, aimed at improving the success rate in the policing of crime priorities, which are organised crime, serious and violent crimes, crimes against women and children, and enhancing service delivery at station level. Eighteen specialised units were closed and ninety-six members were affected by the closure of these units. These members were transferred to the newly established detective units or to stations.

I am afraid that despite the tremendous progress made nationally in terms of racial and gender representativity in the ranks of the SAPS, I am not and cannot be proud when it comes to reporting on the SAPS’s performance in addressing the issue of racial and gender representativity in the Northern Cape.

Little progress has been made in the Northern Cape in regard to this area of the transformation process. Managers at all levels, including station and unit level, are mostly white and male. While racial representativity has indeed been achieved at top level, with two of the three provincial commissioners and all area commissioners being black, one wonders whether it is sheer coincidence that all of them are male, as are all but one of the provincial component heads.

I am also concerned that SAPS management in the province does not seem to be very concerned about this state of affairs and when confronted often shrugs their responsibility off with a they don't qualify in terms of the promotion policy'' orthey don’t apply’’. The ``they’’, almost without exception, refers to either blacks or females, and in particular black females.

Any manager worth her or his weight will know that it is the responsibility of management to continually assess the appropriateness, effectiveness and efficiency of policy in the context of its responsibility and control area, in order to make the necessary amends.

It therefore is unacceptable for police management in the province to hide behind national policy that is clearly not appropriate and effective in the Northern Cape and continues to disadvantage the very previously disadvantaged sectors of our workforce. Out of 85 stations, we have only five or six which are managed by women, and those women are all white for that matter.

It is the duty and the responsibility of management, not only in the interest of those disadvantaged members, but also to adhere to the Constitution and related labour legislation, to begin to do something drastic to attend to this issue.

As Government representing the will of the people, as expressed in their vote for a democratic state based on the values of equality, nonracialism and nonsexism, amongst others, we cannot and shall not tolerate a situation where our struggles are undermined by individuals who are failing to redress and correct damages caused by the apartheid past.

The urgency of the need for a safer and more secure environment, especially against the backdrop of the new form of violence, against particularly our children, that is ravaging our country, cannot be overlooked.

Though SAPS statistics showed a decline in reported rape cases, specifically in the Northern Cape, to us one rape is still one too many. The ordeal of baby Tshepang will forever stay engraved on our minds. This was one of the worst, if not the worst, most ghastly human act ever in the province.

Another recent incident that sent shock waves through the country was the one in which two toddlers were allegedly poisoned by their own stepfather, simply because he was angry at the mother. These heinous acts once again confirm the argument that crimes such as rape, domestic violence and child abuse cannot be policed with any measure of success by the criminal justice agencies acting alone.

It is furthermore important to accept the unfortunate reality that sexual offences and domestic violence are difficult to police and prosecute, precisely because of the intimate nature of these crimes and the process of giving and gathering evidence. From this flows the need for the different stakeholders and role-players in the province to work in a co-ordinated team, not only internally, but also externally, to pool resources together to ensure a greater and more lasting impact on the levels of crime and violence in our province.

Nevertheless, we want to affirm that the plight of victims of crime, abuse and violence has always been a priority for this Government, and the departments and agencies involved in the criminal justice sphere. This is evidenced by the large number of initiatives mentioned in the report issued by the Ministry of Justice in response to the human rights report undertaking to ensure that the criminal justice system becomes more effective, efficient and victim sensitive.

Of particular importance is the best practice that was followed in the baby Tshepang investigation by the police through the establishment of a multiskilled task team of experienced investigators and support personnel, which led to the arrest of the suspect. This approach is also proving to be very effective in the policing and investigation of organised crime and farm attacks in the province.

A number of special projects were launched in the Northern Cape to address crimes of violence against women, and we will intensify our actions during the current financial year.

During the past financial year we embarked on a project aimed at changing the face and image of the police station to victim-friendly service centres. This project, known as ``Project Comfort’’, was launched at 15 police stations in our province to establish and equip victim comfort rooms next to the community service centres, from where victims and complainants of sexual and domestic violence must be served.

The Swedish government has also contributed in this regard by assisting the police through Swedish Project Number 8 to establish a further five victim comfort or support rooms at the five priority stations, that is, Galeshewe, Roodepan, Kimberley, Pabalelo and Upington. In conclusion, to ensure proper and successful investigation of crimes against women and children, the four regional child protection units have been further capacitated through the restructuring of the detective services. [Time expired.] [Applause.]

Mr L G LEVER: Chairperson, the approach of Government to combat the scourge of crime in an integrated and holistic manner is the correct one. Every law- abiding South African wants to see the Departments of Safety and Security, Justice and of Correctional Services win the war against crime.

The Department of Justice has made great strides in the development of its budget process. The process is comprehensive, transparent and understandable. One of the important problems that the budgeting process highlights is that the department will not have the funds to implement certain contemplated Acts of Parliament within the MTEF period. Here I speak of the Legal Practice Bill and the Child Justice Bill. There are, of course, others set out in the department’s documentation as well.

We need to ask ourselves, as members of Parliament: Should we be processing these Bills when the resources to implement them will not be available during the Medium-Term Expenditure Framework period? Should we not be using the resources that the department has available to ensure that the systems that are already in place are properly resourced and operate efficiently? Would it not be better to ensure that all magistrates’ courts have proper facilities to accommodate and cater for minor complainants before we consider new legislation?

Another difficulty is that there appears to be insufficient funds to create all the necessary posts for the maintenance investigators needed to properly implement the relevant legislation. Overall, it appears that whilst progress has been made, the Department of Justice still has some way to go before it can be said to have overhauled its operations.

The hon the Minister in the Department of Correctional Services has the misfortune that this debate occurs the day after the Special Assignment exposé on corruption in Grootvlei Prison. While the Jali commission is sitting to investigate the issue of corruption in prisons, I do not wish to sensationalise the issue. Suffice it to say that all law-abiding South Africans were horrified to see the scenes portrayed on the video. We trust that the Jali commission will establish the precise extent of the corruption in prisons.

All law-abiding South Africans will want to make a positive and constructive contribution to rooting out corruption in the prison services. It is in that spirit that I make the following suggestions. Firstly, all minors who are in prisons should be moved to prisons in a different geographical location from an ordinary prison. I would urge the Minister to consider the feasibility of reserving a prison for underage offenders, even if it means relocating other prisoners. Underage prisoners who are awaiting trial should not be exposed to the prison system unless there are compelling reasons to do so.

Secondly, I would urge the hon the Minister to investigate the feasibility of removing cash from circulation in the prison system. Any cash belonging to an inmate can be kept on his or her behalf, to be returned when they leave prison. If one reads the book Cold Stone Jug by Herman Charles Bosman, one will see that corruption has existed in South African prisons for many years. The officer commanding the Grootvlei Prison took corruption seriously and tried to do something to expose it and bring it to an end. I hope that this fact will be taken into account when his own position is considered.

The nature of the institution of a prison has a corrupting influence. We need to review the conditions of employment of warders to ensure that the temptation is reduced as far as is possible, and warders who yield to corruption need to face the full weight of the law.

The Department of Safety and Security has consistently lost manpower over the past few years. Positive steps have been taken to counteract this trend. Over the next three years, approximately 25 100 new police officers will be trained, which will compensate for the loss by attrition and see the force grow by approximately 16 000 persons. Nevertheless, there are still certain structural problems. There are too few people carrying out visible policing and too many locked into administrative duties. [Time expired.]

Ms D P MAGADZI (Northern Province): Chairperson and hon members, with our hearts and souls still sore after the untimely death of the greatest son of South Africa, we are converged here in this hallowed House to debate the budget of the Justice cluster. His contribution to enriching the national debates will be missed by friends and adversaries alike.

On a positive note, I would also like to join the rest of the country in wishing our President a belated happy birthday.

The budget that we are considering here today constitutes one of the key pillars of democracy in South Africa, a reflection of the work of the Departments of Safety and Security, Justice, Correctional Services and Defence.

It is my pleasure at the same time to join the rest of the country in wishing our newly appointed Minister of Safety and Security success in his tenure. Like the rest of the progressive forces in this country, I am convinced that he will be able to live up to the expectations of the people of South Africa in dealing with criminality, while at the same time continuing to do the good work that his predecessors had started.

In his budget speech, Minister Nqakula alluded to the possibility of enlisting 7 100 new police officers, with the projections of 28 560 new personnel during the present MTEF cycle. The enlisting of these police officers will indeed go a long way in ensuring that as a country we are on top of crime and that indeed we are committed to ensuring that the people of South Africa can live in peace and harmony. At the same time this intake should take into consideration that provinces such as ours have a ratio of 1 police officer to 700 people. This anomaly needs correction.

Concerns have been raised over the past few weeks around the situation at the University of the North, especially the burning down of the university buildings. In this light, I have personally joined the operations of the SANDF, the SA Police Service, the campus protection unit, and the municipal protection services to raid the university in search of criminal elements using the campus as their operational base. While operations are still continuing, we have started seeing the results of the efforts of these men and women by virtue of the arrests that have been made. Several persons are facing charges, ranging from public violence to theft, trespassing and arson. We have started setting up a sector policing unit on the campus, as well as a subforum. The mobile station will be on the campus from time to time, as part of crime prevention.

In the Vhembe district we are faced with a number of challenges due to the unresolved cases of ritual murder. This has led to an uprise by communities, in particular the youth. We appreciate the fact that people are making follow-ups on pending cases, but at the same time this must be done in an orderly manner. Children below the age of 13 were used to blockade the roads, and we saw many criminal activities being carried out by these young men and women, vandalising property as people were passing, opening ``tollgates’’ and charging people passing the road blockades. This must be condemned, because our children must be allowed to grow as children. Once more, let me extend my appreciation to the SA National Defence Force for the human and material support that they provided.

Our province will be convening a summit on rape. Possible stakeholders will be invited to this summit, which will be addressed by prominent speakers to add impetus to Government’s commitment to lending a hand to bettering the lives of people, and particularly women. The convening of this summit is a response to the increasing number of child rape cases, in particular in our province. Research has also been conducted on woman and child abuse in the area of Bolobedu. The causes of these ghastly acts have been outlined and we believe that with the assistance of other stakeholders, in particular other Government departments, we shall be able to implement the recommendations fully.

The advent of people-centred governance has brought with it many experiences in respect of partnerships being developed between communities and public institutions. In the SA Police Service we have community police forums to assist with policing. The judiciary has established a system of lay assessors to assist them with judgments. We also have the commandos in the SA National Defence Force. Unfortunately, there is no community involvement in assisting the prosecution with its work, notwithstanding the fact that the prosecution is regarded as the community’s lawyers in court, whose main responsibility is to protect the interests of the community.

The prosecution in our province is currently engaged in discussion that may result in the establishment of a forum for community participation in the work of the prosecution authorities.

In his budget speech, the Minister for Justice and Constitutional Development reported that a 75% success rate had been achieved by the Saturday and additional courts that were established throughout the country. Allow me to add my voice to those who have congratulated the judicial officers for the good work that has been done in ensuring that justice is meted out within the shortest possible time, and to express the hope that this work will continue as it has already.

In the not-so-distant future, our province will be one of the provinces which will be receiving the High Court. The establishment of this new court will go a long way in dealing with cases that need the attention of a high court. Previously we used to go to the Pretoria High Court, owing to the lack of such an important facility in the province. I also want to express my appreciation to the Department of Justice for this good gesture that they have shown to our province.

We consider ourselves fortunate in the Northern Province in that the Ministry of Correctional Services has found it fitting to house a private correctional facility in this province, within the spirit of public-private partnership in the provision of services to the community. The establishment of Sinthumule-Kutama Correctional Centre is likely to assist in enhancing our ability to effectively rehabilitate offenders in an environment conducive to effective rehabilitation.

My visit to the correctional services centre has highlighted several serious challenges that are facing our juvenile offenders. The institution houses serious and dangerous criminals together with these juvenile and young offenders. In this regard the Department of Correctional Services may need to consider building facilities to be used for young offenders, so as to facilitate programmes designed for them specifically.

One of the major challenges facing the Department of Correctional Services is the receipt of sentenced and unsentenced inmates, some of whom are suffering from chronic diseases. The officials will discover too late that they have chronic patients who are suffering from, for example, psychiatric problems and epilepsy. In the case of a diabetic patient, a person may end up dead before proper medication is dispensed. Our correctional services centres are also overpopulated.

The biggest challenge facing us is how to deal with the problems we are faced with in these institutions. This has led to what we saw yesterday on Special Assignment. The vision of a criminal justice system that is people- centred and responsive to the needs of the people is a vision that all of us should strive for, for the Government is on course in lending a helping hand to provide a better life to our people.

With the support and co-operation of our communities in the execution of justice, we will definitely take criminal justice a step higher, and create a balance between the rights and the responsibilities of the people of our beautiful land, South Africa. [Time expired.] [Applause.]

Mr T RALANE: Chairperson, hon Ministers, hon MECs and hon members, not only does the ANC believe that peace and stability are essential requirements for the successful social, economic and political transformation of our country, it has also taken the lead in galvanising all sectors of society in a campaign to restore peace and stability. The ANC’s approach to fighting crime is based on the understanding that there is no single overriding cause for crime; therefore there can never be a single solution.

The fight against crime requires an all-encompassing approach which must involve all four pillars of our criminal justice system, as well as communities. The fight against crime demands an integrated approach that tackles both the criminal justice system, and economic and human development at the same time. Any other approach is doomed to fail.

A critical element of the ANC’s safety and security policy is the involvement of our communities. We believe that communities must become active participants, if we are to make our areas safe for our children to play in, for people to work and for communities to be involved in social activities. For them to play a meaningful role, communities must be empowered to enable them to participate fully in all decision-making processes regarding community policing forums. To this end, the ANC has resolved to expand the role of community policing forums to ensure adequate participation by communities in these forums.

Furthermore, the ANC will work towards creating the necessary dispensation to enable community policing forums to have greater influence over management and policy-making processes on community safety issues. The involvement of youth in the fight to create safer communities is another important facet of the ANC’s safety and security strategy. To counter the appeal which criminal gangs have for our youth as a provider of social cohesion, the ANC is engaging our youth to participate in anti-crime campaigns. We are also providing youth with an alternative lifestyle, through the development of skills so that they can contribute meaningfully to the reconstruction and development of our country.

Crime is a real problem, and the ANC acknowledges this. However, it is not a problem unique to South Africa. Indeed, compared to countries such as Australia, Switzerland and Denmark, South Africa is relatively safe. I have learned that statistics from Interpol, the International Police Organisation, indicate that a person is more likely to be assaulted in Australia, that Denmark has the highest rate of theft, and that a car is more likely to be stolen in Switzerland. Under the capable leadership of the Minister of Safety and Security, and his very able predecessor, the late Comrade Steve Tshwete, the ANC has been able to turn the fight against crime into a national campaign, in which all sectors of our society have become engaged.

Our national campaign against crime is so successful that we are one of the safest countries in the world for tourists to travel to, according to a university survey of 150 tour operators in countries which included the USA, Britain, Germany and France. To assist my colleague here, I want to refer him to an article published on 12 May 2002, under the heading ``South Africa voted safe, tourists pour in as perceptions change after September 11.’’

Our strategy in terms of dealing with children in conflict with the law has also been praised as one of the best in the world by a UN representative at a recent conference on children in conflict with the law. If the global community regards South Africa as one of the safest destinations to travel to, then there must be some other motive behind the claims by some political parties that the ANC is not doing enough to combat crime.

We do not want people to deny that crime is a problem. What we want is some patriotism and objectivity. How often do people read about actions taken by Government to address overcrowding in prisons and to address court backlogs? How often are people made aware of the mechanisms that exist to address violence against women and children? We have heard from the Ministers about their plans further to improve our criminal justice system. What we need is for all South Africans to realise that negativity will bring us nowhere.

Instead of complaining, opposition parties should encourage their supporters to embrace the transformation that is taking place in our criminal justice system, and find real ways of how they, too, can play a role in the reconstruction and further development of our country. [Interjections.] The ANC is aware of the complexities involved in transforming the police service. There are still police members who resist transformation. In some instances, we still have a skewed distribution of police resources.

Compared to what the situation was before 1994, we can be very proud of our achievements thus far. With the current budget we will be able to build on these achievements, through the allocation of appropriate resources, to accelerate the process of transformation within the police service. We of the ANC support the Vote. [Applause.]

Mr V V Z WINDVO[ë]L: Chairperson, on a point of order: I think it is irresponsible, it is irresponsible and unparliamentary, and out of order, for a member to hang a cap on the microphone of the House, as Mr Raju has done. [Laughter.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr M L Mushwana): Order! Let us leave the Minister of Defence to deal with that. [Laughter.]

The MINISTER OF DEFENCE: Chairperson, for some of us it is always a privilege to come back to this House, and take part in the debates of the National Council of Provinces. I would like to remind the House of the priorities that we shared with the NCOP at the time of the budget last year.

First of all, we pointed out that we would continue to maintain a core force that was able to meet its commitments, and to deal with a wide range of contingencies, a force that had the capacity to expand to an appropriate size, when necessary, and would be able to mount peace support operations, provide support to the SA Police Service, and support to social delivery programmes.

I am happy to announce that to date our performance has met that challenge. As I speak to the House this afternoon, we have deployed, under the auspices of the United Nations, 930 members of the SA National Defence Force, covering a wide range of tasks, including military liaison officers, military observers, staff officers, specialised teams, protection services, and general military assistance.

Members of the SA National Defence Force are deployed in Uganda, the Democratic Republic of Congo, Ethiopia, Eritrea, Algeria, the Comoros and Burundi. They are also participating in SADC initiatives to render planning assistance in various projects. We were heavily involved, for instance, in the Lesotho election process. At the same time we have continued to maintain support for the SA Police Service inside the country, working together with our cluster departments.

The second challenge that we tabled at the time was that of the alignment of policy and budget. Quite often Parliament determines what needs to be done, but the resources available to the executive are not necessarily sufficient and abundant, so we have to take action to deal with this. The mismatch between defence policy and our Defence budget allocation has forced us to re-examine our overall strategy, with the aim of becoming affordable whilst still being able to deliver an effective Defence Force.

What this means is that we cannot change policy once it is determined by Parliament. But within the parameters of determined policy, we have to deploy the resources allocated to us year after year, to be able to meet those obligations that we have, and cannot allow to lapse. That we have been able to do successfully.

When the departmental services and divisions drew up a force structure to meet the needs determined by our policy overall, we found that if we budgeted for everything that we needed to deal with, the budget required would have been R4,1 billion.

That meant we had to review that, so as to be able, in the current year, to maintain those capabilities, and to fulfil the obligations required with the limited budget that we had.

Some hard decisions have to be made in the coming period, and the proposal to enable us to build steadily year after year will be taken to Cabinet and Parliament before we implement it. In the course of this year, we will have to do that.

The third challenge continues to be that of absorption of new technology, both in the light of the new strategic defence package and in the light of competing in the world in which we find ourselves. We have to raise our facilities, our equipment and so on and the training of our staff has to be commensurate with the technological advancements of our day. The new technology embodied in the weapon system being delivered through the strategic defence package impacts on every aspect of defence - from technical training to human resource planning, to maintenance, to a provisioning system, to a new infrastructure and storage.

Consequently, we have a number of young South Africans at the present time, black and white, located in various centres, some in Europe and the Americas, training and getting ready to bring the necessary skills home. The chief of the navy and the air force have been working for the past 18 months on plans to accommodate and absorb this new equipment.

The fourth challenge is the need to develop capacity to respond effectively to our changing regional situation. No one last year at this time would have anticipated that Angola would be busy with the peace process now in place in that country. None of us could have anticipated or predicted that the DRC Sun City talks would take place and move in the direction in which they are moving. This is a very fluid situation in our region.

The tensions, the problems and the challenges raised by Zimbabwe’s recent elections; the threat of hunger and starvation in countries like Malawi, Zambia and so on are all dangers and disasters which South Africa, through the National Defence Force, must always be ready to respond to when the right moment comes. That means, of course, that the SA National Defence Force has to be strong, but flexible enough to meet any unforeseen challenge that arises. I am happy to report that the National Defence Force is responding most effectively and capably in relation to this challenge.

The fifth and final challenge, one which impacts directly on our domestic situation, is to qualitatively increase the capacity of the Defence Secretariat. Hon members will recall that the ministerial inquiry set up after the Tempe problems revealed some serious weaknesses within the Defence Secretariat. We have now - and I can say this with pride - responded systematically and concretely to some of the challenges raised. Appointments which have been made, principally that of the chief finance officer within the Defence Secretariat, have eliminated a whole range of problems that were generating tension in terms of failure to pay salaries on time, discrimination between former members of the SADF as opposed to the others who came from the nonstatutory forces, and so on. I can report with pride that the levels of tension that existed in September 1999 that led to Tempe, that led to FSAI and to the Phalaborwa shootings and killings have been eliminated and a great improvement has taken place.

That does not mean that there are no difficulties. We must understand that. There continue to be problems. I am sure that hon members read the recent report about how two able-bodied seamen shot and killed each other. This was purely a boyfriend-girlfriend affair. It had nothing to with the operations as they stand. Hon members will find a number of incidents like that. Generally, when these incidents are reported, the picture that is cast by the media is that they have to do with operations, but I can give hon members the clear assurance this afternoon that most of those incidents now, except one that happened in Burundi - and I can deal with the details of that at a later stage because that matter is now sub judice - have purely been either acts of crime or of personal tension between people such as individuals who may be quarrelling about something, but they are not to do with structural organisational problems.

We continue, of course, to have difficulties. The middle layers of the SA National Defence Force continue to be heavily dominated by white officers, and that middle layer strata is where, in fact, one employs one’s resources. The rank and file, on the other hand, is dominated by the black sections of the population. Therefore, when the orders are given by white officers to black troopers and so on, it is natural in that kind of situation that there should be a bit of discord. But, compared to what the situation was at the beginning of last year to the present time, the improvement is immense.

With regard to the air force, I think we have began to break the backbone of the resistance to transformation and the same can be said with regard to the navy. The numbers remain weak, but I must tell this House that to produce a fully trained, capable able-bodied seaperson - man or woman - takes many years. If it could be done overnight, we would be the first ones to do so. It takes a lot of time and resources. Many of the young men and women of our country who will undergo this transformation are now either in our own academies here or in academies in other countries. When they do come back, there will be a manner in which we will transform things fairly fast.

I must take members into my confidence on this question. The SA military health services are, as I am standing here, short of more than 100 budgeted- for medical doctors. We are laying emphasis, in terms of the recruitment stage, on filling the more than 100 posts by doctors, men and women, from black communities, either on a full-time or a part-time basis. They can do the work in their own practices, but come in periodically. To get the message deep into communities in order for people to appreciate the importance of this is not easy. We have inherited communities, particularly black communities, for whom National Defence Force service is regarded as carrying a firearm and standing on a street corner, ready to shoot anybody who look like they are going to throw a stone. Unfortunately, that is not what defence is about.

No institution requires capabilities and technical training more than the National Defence Force. We need engineers - mechanical and civil engineers

• doctors, psychologists and traumatologists. We need the most trained people, even for our pilots. One looks for trained people everywhere. Today when the United Nations needs men and women who are technically trained south of the equator - whether there is a bombing in Nairobi, Kenya, or Dar es Salaam, Tanzania - there is only one country with the capability to supply technically trained men and women, and it is this country.

With regard to the DRC the UN asked that we not give them foot soldiers as they had all the countries of Africa ready to deploy men and women who can stand on a corner with a gun. They needed technical people, communication experts, medical doctors, engineers - anything technical one can think of. Large numbers of young South Africans need to be taking advantage of coming into the National Defence Force, because we have set aside part of the budget to send them to universities, technikons and so on, so that the National Defence Force, and therefore this country, does not run short of human resources to meet its obligations in relation to our neighbours and our continent. Once those people are qualified, and at a time when they are not needed, we will civilianise them. They will then take those skills into our communities, uplift them and make life better.

It is our contribution to train so that the country can meet its obligations, and to train to meet the needs of the country’s own social programmes. The Defence Force is also empowered with men and women who are not only self-disciplined, but are also able to assist this country to advance into the future and meet the obligations towards the population of this country. I would like to indicate that we are at the present time making major revisions of the SA National Defence Force. Some of the facilities which we have, we are going to have to cut down precisely because, as I have said, as we take in technical know-how, tasks which in the past could be done by many other people, can now be done by fewer numbers because of the technical levels that we are raising. We are now converting some of those and we will be looking to work with the other institutions. Indeed, this cluster of Ministers here and the others who are not here, is now working on a programme to withdraw members of the National Defence Force from most of the civilian functions. Cabinet has taken a decision to set up a national security agency to take on some of the young men and women who are capable, with good records, and so on. We are setting that up, jointly, as this cluster. We will then be able to take over some of the tasks and allow for the National Defence Force to concentrate on its core business and obligations. I am indebted also for the collaboration and the joint efforts that we are putting together with our colleagues in the cluster to advance this.

The final point that I would like to make is that we are very grateful for the work that was done by Parliament in reviewing the whole controversy around the strategic defence package acquisition. Apart from the findings of the four agencies, we are now in a position to report that the counter trades that were negotiated are yielding incredible advantages for the country. Whilst we buy with rands, the negotiated industrial participation agreements are either in rands, pounds or deutschmarks, which means bigger quantities of investments are coming into the country, rather than going out. When the rand goes down and the dollar goes up, those dollars that are negotiated must remain at that number. Therefore, the amount of resources flowing into the country is far bigger, and not a loss for this country.

Now, of course, I have to make one last point with regard to that, and it is that South Africa was isolated for a long time. Even when it came to the question of currency exchanges and so on, we were insulated from the international community. Some of the difficulties or fluctuations that we are facing have to do with the fact that our country is working itself into an international market that, until our democratisation, we were not part of. There is very little for South Africa to be alarmed about. The trends that have been indicated elsewhere within our economy show clearly that we are in fact benefiting, even after the events of September 11 last year. If the hon members look at the reports on tourism and so on, the flood or the movement in this direction is big, which explains why we are negotiating with such urgency the question of a Southern African mutual defence pact.

This is the top priority this year - that at the next summit SADC accept this. That will send a message to the international community that the nations of our region are jointly committed to each other’s protection and defence; that the conflicts that are now there, that are being worked out today, cannot replicate themselves, because that mutual defence pact makes it impossible for one Southern African country to attack another, because all of them are under one agreement.

Therefore, potential investors can come into our region; they can invest their money, assured of the fact that Southern Africa as a community of nations is committed to long-term security and stability, that the basis is there for them to invest, and that they can be assured that their resources will not be wasted. [Applause.] Mr L RAMATLAKANE (Western Cape): Chairperson of the NCOP, Ministers, colleagues and hon members, I rise to support the national Minister’s budget and the national Minister’s efforts to support the strategy to bring down crime in the country. I must also say that the efforts of the late Minister Steve Tshwete have seen the stabilising of crime nationally. So we are building on that foundation and it will take us to the normalisation stage. I must add that this normalisation stage requires that all departments integrate their programmes so as to achieve the goals.

The Western Cape government within its strategic policy framework directed its work in terms of the objective to ``contain and eradicate crime through good intergovernmental co-operation so that the Western Cape can become a safe and secure home for all, especially women and children’’.

The Western Cape is still faced with the challenge of dealing with the skewedness of resource allocation between what I call the violent crime area on the one hand and the economic crime area on the other hand. This is informed by an exit poll survey which revealed, inter alia, that communities have little trust in the police; that there is a lack of case confidentiality and sensitivity; and a lack of willingness to help. Armed with this information, I initiated a process to arrest the situation.

With the understanding that constitutional requirements determine the role that one has to play, a Western Cape police indaba was convened on 9 and 10 May to map out the way forward. The indaba discussed an agreed on people- oriented problem- solving, policing and a community safety strategy for the province. The indaba was attended by about 400 people, representing 162 police stations, community policing forums from those stations and the NGOs associated with policing and or crime prevention.

This strategic plan is located within the framework of the province’s commitment to fighting crime and addressing the needs of the poor and disadvantaged citizens of this province, recognising that by far the largest number of murders in the Western Cape occurs in the poor African and coloured townships, and that the poor areas are hardest hit by crime and yet these very areas are still not adequately equipped with police resources and too often still experience much lower levels of policing services than that in other areas. Taking into account these police stations and priority crime areas, the strategic plan and discussion concluded that we need to focus on three key areas in the Western Cape: firstly, murder; secondly, organised crime; and thirdly crime against women and children.

The identification of these priority areas does not mean that general policing will not take place in the province, but that it is also aimed at focusing on achieving maximum results. Within these three areas identified are key issues of interpersonal conflict, shebeens and gangsterism that require attention, meaning that resources should follow the priorities that we determine. I will return to the gangsterism issue on the Cape Flats shortly.

The conference resolved and directed that the development of a service charter outlining the responsibilities and obligations of the police and the rights of complainants needed to be addressed, and that the date was to be finalised by 30 June. This included ensuring that all police stations in the province were equipped with trauma rooms by the end of December 2002. The conference also resolved that there be a commitment by all to form strong partnerships with the communities against crime in order to beat crime.

The indaba prioritised six policing areas in which the rate of murder, organised crime and violence against women was high, that is Khayelitsha, Mitchells Plain, Nyanga, Guguletu, Kuilsrivier and Philippi. There was general acceptance that resources would have to be realigned, reorganised and/or personnel redeployed to ensure effective police service delivery.

With regard to vigilantism, the indaba condemned it in the strongest terms possible. It was, in fact, agreed that the CPFs and other community organisations should expose this criminality that purports to represent the interests of the communities but violates human rights.

With regard to the priority areas, it is with pride that we can report to this House that we have gained some ground with community mobilisation through an antichild abuse campaign, known as ``Hands off our children - My child is your child’’ or HOOC. This is a campaign that seeks to create awareness of this sickness pervading our community and it engages the community in interventions that will see us preventing and eradicating crime against women and children.

The outcome, therefore, of the indaba provided an opportunity for all police management and community policing forums to refine their station policing plan in line with the objectives and outcome of the conference. But this approach does not mean that the policing plan will be designed as a one size fits all plan. It is, of course, the station plans that are based on station priorities and patterns and on local needs. To this end, we will meet on Monday, 24 June, with police management to begin to analyse the station-by-station plans. They will be tabled in order that service delivery will improve in the province to an acceptable level.

Gang activity, as pointed out by hon Minister Nqakula in his budget speech, remains a big challenge in the Western Cape. Sporadic gangsterism conflict spills over into schools, and normal schooling is hampered in the process. The normal lives of various communities are negatively affected, some lose their lives in the process. But communities on the Cape Flats continue to see gangsterism as a way of life, a way of life because for many gangsterism is linked to their livelihood. This situation requires an integrated measure between all spheres of government and the relevant departments to turn the situation around. Further community mobilisation is needed, and this mobilisation of communities started when we took over.

While we acknowledge the additional deployment of police as part of Operation Slasher, which must be appreciated, the capacity of the total force within the context of the withdrawal of the army, used as a backup to the SAPS in the gang-ravaged areas, remains a concern. This matter requires further attention by the national Ministers of Safety and Security and of Defence. I would like to say to the Minister that we acknowledge the national Ministry’s commitment to allocating an additional 3 200 of the new police posts to the Western Cape in order to ensure that our province is adequately resourced so that we are able to fight crime. It is my view that the resource allocations, as I have indicated earlier, to contain and eradicate crime in the Western Cape need further attention.

The other matter of concern is the slowness in which we are address the location of community service centres in the province. It is a fact that most of these community policing centres are not located within reach of our communities. So our effectiveness would require that we address this matter both as the SAPS and, of course, as the national Public Works Department. However, we must cut down on the length of time taken to design and construct these services.

The transformation of the police and police management remains a challenge to be overcome. I can depend, of course, in terms of the transformation, on the Minister and the national Commissioner in that the situation in the Western Cape in terms of transformation should change. I want to emphasise that the question of reorientation of the police in the province will be receiving attention in time to come.

In the context of transformation, I want to raise the matter of corruption in the police, but stress that for the good of policing we must always isolate culprits from the good policewomen and policemen out there to whom we remain indebted as a country.

Our demonstration of zero tolerance spoke volumes when the police captain based in Philippi was found to be using or issuing gun licences to gangsters and/or gang leaders. When a captain and inspectors were found poaching abalone in Gansbaai action was taken against them. All in all, about 34 police members have received varying forms of punishment in the time we are speaking about in the interests of the good name of the SA Police Service.

With regard to Correctional Services, suffice it to say - because of the time limit - that the issue of corruption in the centres requires urgent attention, for instance how inmates are handled and all sorts of other issues. Of major concern is that while we are making every effort and doing everything possible to bring back the elements of peace, security and stability to the province, political parties such as the DP, or the DA as it is referred to, keep hampering our morale-boosting efforts in the Police Service by continuing to insult communities by making inflammatory statements about the police. We call on them to stop this childish and dangerous behaviour.

Lastly, I would like to agree fully with President Mbeki’s statement when he spoke in the National Assembly yesterday, and I quote:

Arising from this come the challenges of drugs and gangsterism. In this regard, we have to pay even closer attention to the calls of the youth on the Cape Flats to assist their communities to rid themselves of the twin problems of drug abuse and gangsterism.

We are ready, in terms of our co-operative Government commitment, to put into action the statement of the President without delay, so that the Western Cape can become a secure home for all its people, especially women and children.

In conclusion, the Western Cape is ready to move forward with the efforts of the national Minister to bring crime down and normalise society. We are confident that while this demand from each of us … [Time expired.] [Applause.]

Mr P D N MALOYI: Chairperson, Ministers, MECs, permanent and special delegates, ladies and gentlemen, we are meeting here today once more to debate how to accelerate the mammoth task of solidifying the foundation of our democratic order. We have a duty to work tirelessly to ensure that our nation is transformed into a truly nonracial, nonsexist and united country which is at peace with itself.

Amongst many challenges confronting us is the successful transformation of the justice system. We have to spend greater effort in intensifying our campaign to transform the justice system on the basis that problems in the justice system have the potential to reverse all the gains we made since we took power in 1994. I must immediately say here that I hold no brief for the Minister or his department, but if we take a closer look at the work they have done since 1994, our faces should be brimming with happiness at realising that what they preach is followed by tangible measures.

This department has a responsibility to provide resources for the proper and efficient functioning of the criminal and civil justice system. It provides legislation and gives administrative support for the establishment of institutions required by the Constitution of this country. If one of our key objectives is to improve service delivery and enhance the justice system’s operational capabilities to provide swift, effective, accessible and efficient justice, the question of case backlogs must be addressed as speedily as possible. But I am worried about one thing, that the Department of Justice does not have the necessary financial resources to address the matter of case backlogs. We know that the department did identify the rolling stone project as one of the priority needs. As a result, it requested an amount of R10 million, but unfortunately approval was not granted. This should worry all of us as we are seated here in this House.

Linked to this is the question of human resources. We were informed by the department that in 1997 we needed about 1 812 posts, and of these only a fraction has been filled to date. This has resulted in serious personnel shortages. We are told that to address these problems we will need about R220 million and the department requested, at least for this financial year, R59,056 million. Unfortunately again, approval was not granted. This should be a serious concern to all of us.

Part of our transformation agenda is to repeal outdated laws and introduce new ones that are in line with our Constitution. The Bills that are before Parliament are budgeted for under the legislation and constitutional development business unit. We were informed that out of nine Bills that are to be introduced to this Parliament only two have been budgeted for, and that is the Judicial Officers Amendment Bill and the Child Justice Bill. But I must emphasise that the department budgeted R17,7 million for the Child Justice Bill and was only given R4 million, meaning that it has a shortfall of R13,7 million. This should also be a concern to all of us.

Hon members will remember that the Equality Review Committee - I am not raising this matter because I am a member of this committee - was supposed to report to the Minister within a year on section 74 of the Promotion of Equality and Prevention of Unfair Discrimination Act of 2000. This work was not completed on time due to a lack of financial resources. I have raised this matter with the department and stated that we cannot proceed in this manner, where we have structures which were established in terms of the laws of this country but there is no money for those structures. Something needs to be done as speedily as possible. The department did acknowledge that what I was saying was correct and, for that matter, they were thinking of the possibility of budgeting about R20,936 million for this legislation. But, unfortunately, I must say that I am disappointed that this structure has not received anything to date.

We are aware that the department is redesigning and restructuring the maintenance system to enhance operational effectiveness and efficiency. The situation as it exists now is a mess. We have received a report from the Eastern Cape complaining about the maintenance offices. I hope that the Minister does have this report. We visited the North West a month ago and what we saw there cannot be mentioned in this House. It is quite disturbing. I hope that very soon the department will receive the report if they do not have it yet. It is clear that we need to make every effort to ensure that these offices are attended to as soon as possible.

It is against this backdrop that we are calling on all members of Parliament to assist the department to achieve the above objectives and ensuring that, amongst other things, they redesign and restructure the maintenance system.

Irrespective of the limited resources we must commend the department for work well done under very difficult conditions. It is worth mentioning that the National Prosecuting Authority, under the leadership of Bulelani Ngcuka, is making progress in all areas. The average court hours have improved, the conviction rate has increased and the number of seizures and forfeitures, in the case of the Asset Forfeiture Unit, have also increased tremendously.

Hon members will agree with me that the special operations unit has made an impact on combating organised crime, urban terror, gangsterism, vehicle hijacking, taxi violence and racketeering. We need to commend the department for a job well done.

The separation of judicial and administrative functions also needs to be commended, but we will need to build capacity at administrative level as a matter of urgency. When we were in the North West we were informed that most of the people who were trained in terms of the administrative functions were magistrates. Now, immediately when one separates these two functions it will mean that one will need to train other people as soon as possible. But after making investigations immediately after that visit, I was happy to learn that training had already started and things were going according to plan. We need to thank the department for that speedy response.

I am mindful of the time constraints, and may I therefore conclude by calling on all South Africans, irrespective of colour, creed or race, to agree that the interests of the country should occupy centre stage and party-political wishes should be relegated to lower levels, but obviously not to the periphery. An aspect that has caused our Government, under the leadership of the ANC, to survive during trying moments is the boldness we always demonstrated in undertaking introspection, the intention being to look at the weaknesses and threats that have the potential to inhibit the capacity to realise or reach our objectives. Hon members, let us not cause our Government to fall in that league of people who say, ``we will try next time’’.

May I conclude by indicating that as the ANC we are proud of our past and confident of our future. [Applause.]

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF DEFENCE: Chairperson and members of the National Council of Provinces, the Minister of Defence and hon Kgoshi Mokoena have spoken about the sterling work of the SA National Defence Force in supporting peace processes on our continent. Indeed, this is in line with our own policies as a country and with our Constitution.

Well, the role of the SA National Defence Force in a situation of democracy must be that of exporting peace. This is one of our most precious commodities as a country that we can export to other countries, the commodity of peace. But we are building on the tradition and heritage that has been passed on to us by those who have gone before us, those who have led our organisation. I am thinking here of our former President Mandela who, as we all know, is regarded not only by South Africa, but by the whole world, as a peacemaker. But President Mandela was following the traditions set by the founders of the ANC in 1912 and followed through the decades by great leaders of the movement, such as Makgatho, Gumede, Rev Magabane, Dr Xuma, Chief Luthuli and Oliver Tambo.

Oliver Tambo was to lead a noble armed struggle that was characterised by respect for civilian lives and constraint on the unnecessary use of violence. President Thabo Mbeki has since taken on this role of making peace, not only in Africa, but all over the world. The commitment to solving problems through negotiations and peaceful means was to lead to the character of our democracy, which came into being in April 1994. In 1996, through their Parliament, the people of South Africa were to endorse this commitment when they declared, and I quote:

Defence must serve to uphold peace and security in a democratic society so as to create a stable environment for the improvement of our people’s lives and for the development and progress of our country.

The people declared that the preferred and primary cause of self-defence was to prevent conflict and war, meaning that South Africa would turn to military means only as a last resort, when deterrence and nonviolence strategies have failed. The people further declared that the SA National Defence Force they wanted would be integrated, transformed, representative and at peace with the world. They wanted an SA National Defence Force that understood that it had a role in the Reconstruction and Development Programme, the RDP.

The Minister of Defence and Kgoshi Mokoena have referred to the military skills development programme. This is our contribution as the Department of Defence to the reconstruction and development of our country, by training our youth and giving them skills so that they can contribute to building our country.

In response to the people’s call, the Department of Defence and the SANDF have proceeded from the understanding that defence encompasses human security. That is why the Department of Defence is involved in the RDP. They are linking the need to secure our citizens against all types of enemies, including disease, unemployment, lack of skills, unequal access to resources and poverty, while contributing to world peace.

As spelt out in the White Paper in the Defence Review, transformation must at all times be guided by the principle of civilian oversight and scrutiny. This stresses the importance of strengthening the Defence Secretariat, which the Minister has referred to, so that it can perform its task. Some civil-military relations also entail vibrant interaction with civil society, as demonstrated during the Defence Review process. we are doing this through the Office of the Secretary of Defence who is at the interface between the Department of Defence and civil society.

The Minister has referred to the core force concept and the fact that this core force concept depends on the ability of the Defence Force to expand quickly should the need arise. This leads us to talk about the reserve force. Owing to budgetary constraints and the fact that so far that we have been concentrating mainly on integrating the regular force, we may not have paid the necessary attention to the reserve forces. But we are turning to that at the moment.

To maintain 35% strength in the conventional reserves and almost 75% strength in the territorial reserves, some R264 million per annum is required. This amount excludes operational costs, but allows for fair recruitment, training and retention of the reserves as well as the integration of the ex-MK and ex-Apla members. We do indeed hope that these members will join the reserves, and that ordinary black people will also join our reserves. Somebody mentioned the fact that we need to transform our commandos. Indeed, we are moving towards this, and we wish to encourage black participation in the commandos in order for this important structure to be transformed. I want to mention here that the commandos have been playing an important role in assisting the police to curb rural crime. But, indeed, there have been elements within the commandos that have acted in a manner that is far from desirable. This is something that we are currently attending to.

I have talked about the contribution of the Department of Defence to the RDP. This brings me to the collateral utilisation of the Department of Defence which is peacetime utilisation of our resources. This is outlined in the Defence Review and we are contributing to this. I am sure some members would have seen our military health service in KwaZulu-Natal going out to assist in fighting cholera. They have also been involved in fighting malaria and foot-and-mouth disease. This is the collateral utilisation of our Defence Force, and we will continue to contribute in whatever way we can to meet the needs of the country and our neighbouring countries.

I now want to address the issue of keeping our members in the Defence Force healthy. To ensure the optimal health of our members, the department’s programme on combating the spread of HIV/Aids and caring for those that are affected is premised on the fundamental principle that HIV/Aids is one of many chronic, progressive and potentially life-threatening diseases. The launch of the Masibambisane Campaign, focusing on behaviour change and targeting specifically military personnel, has added impetus to the fight against HIV/Aids. To date, Masibambisane has been launched in seven provinces. I had the pleasure, recently, of speaking at the most recent launch in the beautiful valley of Magoebaskloof in the Limpopo province.

Our department has been actively involved in developing partnerships with other state departments and the private sector to develop an effective demobilisation programme. This is to ensure that those who are leaving the SANDF are properly equipped for civilian life. Workshops have been conducted to ensure that the demobilised soldiers are not thrown onto the street, but helped to become self-supporting and economically active after they leave active service in the SANDF.

Regarding the question of our veterans, I am happy to report that the Minister of Defence has established the military veterans’ advisory board, which is making good progress and is now involved in preparations for the launch of the new military veterans’ federation. This federation will have all veterans from the Second World War, from the struggle, from the SADF. All these veterans will be working together in the federation. We are happy to announce that this veterans’ federation will host an international conference of veterans next year which will be held in South Africa.

Further on the issue of veterans, we are happy that the department has adopted a policy to award pensions to the nonstatutory force members for the time they served in the liberation struggle. That service is being recognised by the Department of Defence. We are also happy that the veterans are involved in the Government’s Freedom Park initiative that will commemorate and celebrate the history of our struggle for freedom. And, as members saw, the President launched the Freedom Park project on 16 June 2002 in Pretoria. Our veterans are involved in that project.

Coming to the issue of gender, first I must recognise you, Chairperson, in the Chair, the women MECs from the Northern Cape and Limpopo who have spoken here, my party caucus chairperson who is here and the many women who are in this House that are contributing to our democracy. To them I am inspired to say: Malibongwe! [Praise!]

HON MEMBERS: Malibongwe! [Praise!]

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF DEFENCE: We are transforming gender relations in the SANDF. Members will know that last year we announced our first woman commander in the Eastern Cape and we also announced our first woman pilot. Attempts are being made to transform the Department of Defence, but this is a daunting task, as members would know, because prior to 1994 there were hardly any women in the Department of Defence and now we know that through our Constitution they can serve in combat and at any other level.

In this regard I am happy also to inform this House that the Council on Defence took a decision that the Directorate: Equal Opportunities and Affirmative Action should be located in the Office of the Secretary for Defence - which is a very high office - so that they can report directly to the Secretary. They are responsible for ensuring and monitoring that we are implementing our policies on gender equality.

The launch in August 2000 of the African Women’s Peace Table was acclaimed as a groundbreaking initiative. This forum has begun to contribute to Nepad by creating an opportunity for female soldiers and civil society to interact on issues of peace on the continent.

In pursuance of peace, South Africa has spearheaded a campaign to rid our country and our continent of surplus and illegal arms in order to prevent them from falling into the wrong hands and being utilised for the conflicts in Africa. We have dismantled our military nuclear capability as a country and converted it for nonmilitary use. We campaigned for the ban of antipersonnel mines. Our country was among the first to sign the mine ban treaty and has begun drafting legislation as required by the convention.

The department has destroyed well over one million kilograms of surplus and redundant small arms in order to curb their recirculation. The SANDF has, in joint operations with the SA Police Service, collected thousands of illegal arms. The department has also participated in combined operations with Mozambique and Lesotho in an effort to curb the proliferation of these small arms, which, when they fall into the wrong hands, are used for crime and for fuelling conflicts.

The Department of Defence is involved in developing common regional security measures and in contributing to the harmonisation of regional defence policies and legislation. Countries of the region are co-operating on how to strengthen the guarding of our common borders in the fight against trafficking in arms, drugs and humans. Indeed, we can truly say that our country is transforming the lives of our people for the better, and we can say with certainty that Africa will have a lasting peace, Africa will be a prosperous continent and Africa will be free. [Applause.]

Prince B Z ZULU: Chairperson, Ministers, MECs and hon members, I stand here to endorse and support this Vote on behalf of the ANC. The SA National Defence Force is one of the few armed forces in the world which accepts the right of women to serve in combat. There are women crews in the artillery and armed corps of the army. The air force has women trainee pilots, something we are proud to mention.

To bring the new attitudes and values of the military into line with the fundamental principles of our new democracy, the department’s civic education programme on ``Defence in a democracy’’ was completed a few years ago. This programme has been implemented throughout the Defence Force as an integral part of our new military culture.

The Department of Defence notes in its annual report that while striving to perform its primary tasks, that is to provide and maintain defence capabilities and to deliver services in terms of defence commitments made by the Government both internally and externally; whenever members of the SA National Defence Force are utilised, the department collaborates with a range of governments, and regional and international players to ensure that these objectives are met. The SANDF is required to play a major role in support of the SA Police Service to maintain internal peace and stability. This is a secondary task and the SA army is not structured to execute this task.

The department’s vision is therefore to ensure, in accordance with the Constitution, effective defence for South Africa, enhancing national, regional and global security through balanced, modern, affordable and technologically advanced defence capabilities. The mission of the department is to provide, manage, prepare and employ defence capabilities commensurate with the needs of South Africa, as regulated by the Constitution.

Over the past year the SA National Defence Force provided a diverse range of services to South Africa and other African nations, including operations to combat crime in co-operation with the SAPS; patrolling the country’s borders in the rural areas; providing aid together with other Government departments, especially the Department of Health and Agriculture and fulfilling international obligations during peace support operations.

The SA National Defence Force deploys forces in support of the SAPS along South Africa’s international borders. This deployment consists of on average 13 infantry companies patrolling selected sections of land borders, supported by elements of the SA Military Health Services and the SA Air Force.

The SA Air Force contributes aircraft to deployed land forces where necessary and carries out reconnaissance flights along the land and sea borders, where they assist the SA Navy ships patrolling the South African exclusive economic zone. The SA Navy patrols also assist the Department of Environmental Affairs and Tourism with the prosecution of illegal fishermen, while maintaining a presence at the scene, thereby deterring other criminal activities such as the smuggling of drugs.

The SA Air Force further assists the Civil Aviation Authority and the SA Police Service border component in an attempt to control illegal aircraft entering South African airspace.

In the meantime, the department has prioritised activities, taking into account the maintenance of personnel defence capabilities and capacities, operational readiness, preparation for defence contingents, the execution of operational task commitments and contractual obligations.

In terms of national HIV/Aids policy, the department does not discriminate against members who have contracted the virus. This has led to changes in the mix of spending on care and support, but has not increased the rate of growth of expenditure.

In conclusion, I would like to congratulate the SA National Defence Force and the SA Police Service on their joint protect to curb escapes from the custody of South African Correctional Services, an initiative which was launched in co-operation with the Council for Scientific and Industrial Research, the CSIR. This research focuses on the technical side of police cell security and, more specifically, a specialised electronic security system. A prototype system has been installed and is being monitored, although some weaknesses have been identified.

For the past two years no escapes were experienced from the cells where the system had been installed. There were attempts where detainees tried to escape but the system notified the members on duty before these escapes could take place. It is foreseen that an affordable solution will be found in the near future in order to get the implementation phase off the ground.

Mr I W KOTSOANE (Free State): Chairperson, we rise to support the Budget Vote of the Department of Safety and Security, which we as the Free State believe will enhance our capacity to fight crime in our communities. We do so by saluting communities in the Free State for their selflessness during the month of Letsema, and their continued participation in Letsema campaigns at different police stations across the Free State.

At the beginning of the campaign, throughout the month, over 25 000 volunteers were registered at police stations in the province. In terms of police statistics, this is the largest number of volunteers ever registered in the country. This was made possible by the level of co-operation between our community policing forums, communities and members of the police service. Volunteers provide services to the police which range from administrative work to cleaning and painting our police stations. This has made it possible for large numbers of police officers to be released from those administrative jobs, to be able to be visible in our communities.

Many more of our compatriots enrolled as reservists while others took to the streets in pursuit of different campaigns such as No to woman and child abuse'',No to drugs and substance abuse’’ and ``Crime does not pay’’.

The launch of ``Reject stolen goods’’ by the late Minister Steve Tshwete in Thabong saw a massive turn-out by our people, who felt that it was time to close the market for stolen goods in our communities. Such positive responses have brought home the fact that, given an opportunity and space, our people are willing constructively to contribute to development and service delivery where they live, particularly with regard to programmes that are aimed at reducing crime.

As we progress with this campaign for the remainder of this year, we are thrilled by Popcru’s willingness to heed the Presidential call and to be involved in Letsema. This will involve overtime work by its members without any expectation to be paid. Those who are on leave will be mobilised from time to time to contribute freely to the success of this campaign and the reduction of crime in our province.

The involvement of the young people in this campaign is equally acknowledged, since they are most likely participants in criminal activities. All of these activities are indicative of the levels of trust that exist between our communities and the SAPS, and indeed we can say, as a province, that the SAPS is being transformed and this is highly appreciated by our communities.

The problems of youth gangsterism in Bethlehem continue to worry us as a province. We have seen the establishment of groups called Cats of Milk and Dogs of War, with members as young as 12 and as old as 25. These groups have been terrorising the community of Bohlokong, raping women and children, and have been involved in robbery, housebreaking and murders. However, my department, the Departments of Education, Social Development, Correctional Services and Justice are involved in a programme for the rehabilitation of those young people. Jointly, we will be launching a rehabilitation centre for those who are willing to be rehabilitated.

Some of these young people were sent for rehabilitation to a centre in Cape Town and I wish to thank the Chrysalis Academy for their support in this regard, as well as the MEC from the Western Cape.

Indications thus far are that these gangs are not linked in any way to illicit drug trafficking. The police will continue to investigate all cases that are outstanding against these groups and those who are found to be involved in any criminal activities will be arrested.

We have to report that yesterday we as a province opened the Mangaung One- stop Child Justice Centre. This event took place while the country is hosting an international conference in Port Elizabeth on the theme ``Developing citizenship among the youth in conflict with the law on the African continent’’. This facility is a replica of the Stepping Stones concept found in Port Elizabeth.

The centre is a reflection of collaborative efforts by all stakeholders, the police, the Justice Department, Correctional Services, Social Development and NGOs that have the interests of children in conflict with the law at heart. One of the aims of this facility will be to ensure restorative justice, as opposed to the punitive measures that used to be applied against young offenders. It will provide legal representation to children and ensure the speedy delivery of justice services to them.

Over the past few days concerns have been raised by Free State farmers on the border between the Free State and Lesotho. These concerns relate to growing cross-border stock theft, illegal grazing of animals from Lesotho on Free State farms, veld fires on farms, the cutting of border fences and general destruction of property. Obviously, these issues do have an impact on the security and safety of both farmers and farmworkers in the province. They impact negatively on the economy of the Free State, since some farmers are no longer actively involved in farming activities along the border.

In the discussions we had with farmers, contrary to what some of the opposition parties say - and particularly the DP - about the withdrawal of the army on the border, farmers noted and acknowledged that the decline of the Lesotho economy and drought were major factors that contributed to this problem recently. They acknowledge that economic growth and food security in Lesotho would help to recreate good relations with the citizens of Lesotho.

Within the context of our region, that is, SADC, and Nepad, there is a need for both provincial and national governments to get into discussions with the Lesotho government in order to create an atmosphere of co-operation. The farmers are willing to assist farming communities on the Lesotho side to re-establish farming activities in order to achieve food security for the Lesotho citizens.

They request that the Government of South Africa, and in particular the Department of Public Works, should help with the fencing of the border, since this is nonexistent for a stretch of about 25 km. Issues raised here particularly relate to those farmers on the Wepener-Zastron border.

In the eastern part of our province, that is in the Fouriesburg, Fauresmith and Ficksburg area, farmers have the same concerns. However, we want to report here today that since my meeting with them, there has been a marked improvement in co-operation between them and Marenana on the Lesotho side. This has resulted in the reduction of crime, particularly stock theft, as well as veld fires. They hold regular meetings between the communities in Lesotho and the SAPS, as well as the Lesotho police.

I therefore wish to request the Minister to pay a visit to the Free State, so that together we can enhance this necessary relationship and co- operation between our farming communities and the Lesotho citizens. Lesotho is a foreign country and we as a province cannot begin to engage in those types of discussions. We felt that we needed to put the record straight, so that whoever rises here in this Chamber or anywhere else and makes an issue about the South African army’s withdrawal from the border should know that it is not a reflection on farmers in that area. Farmers want more collaboration and co-operation with the Lesotho citizens.

As a country we have indeed achieved many things within a very short space of time, one of which is our very own Constitution, and in particular the Bill of Rights. The Constitution requires all of us, collectively as South African citizens, to promote a culture of human rights in the country.

However, we wish to note that some of our patriots, particularly on farms, continue to undermine the very culture we seek to nurture. There are numerous cases that have been reported by farm employees against their own employers. These range from refusing burial rights to the deceased to physical assault and illegal evictions of farmworkers.

We still have to hear a member of the opposition party who rises in any Chamber and begins to condemn this, because what they do at all times …

Ms C BOTHA: Chairperson, on a point of order: As a member of the opposition party, I would like to correct, for the record, perhaps, the ignorance of the hon member. [Interjections.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! Hon members, I am in control. Continue, Mr Kotsoane. [Interjections.] Hon members, if you do not give me the chance to listen to what the point of order is, on any other occasion I will not be able to judge whether a person is wrong or right. Hon Kotsoane, you may continue.

Mr I W KOTSOANE: Chairperson, the point I want to highlight is that we still have to hear any member of the opposition who will raise their voice when a farmworker is killed and when farmworkers’ rights are being undermined by farmers. [Laughter.] [Interjections.] They continue to create the impression that this Government … [Interjections.]

Ms C BOTHA: Chairperson, on a point of order: Is it in order for the hon MEC to mislead the House by telling inexactitudes?

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! May I say to the House that I will give a judgment on that matter because ``misleading’’ has two contexts. One may mislead purposely in the understanding or not, so it means I would still have to go and look into whether the misunderstanding there was a purposeful misunderstanding or not. Hon member Kotsoane, continue.

Mr I W KOTSOANE: Chairperson, we have no intention whatsoever to mislead the House, but what is being reported every time …

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Hon Kotsoane, pass the point that you have already mentioned.

Mr I W KOTSOANE: Chairperson, when we raise this issue we are seen to be inflaming racial conflicts within our communities. However, we will continue to raise this matter, because these issues - that is, human rights issues - particularly in our communities, are the centre of our own nation- building programme.

We are pleased that the Human Rights Commission will be holding public hearings shortly to begin to investigate some of these issues. We are equally happy that we have finally reached an agreement with the organised farming community in the Free State on the need to address human rights issues that continue to bedevil the relationships. A shared understanding of the need to address the human rights culture between my department and the agricultural union is a step worth commending.

It is worth mentioning that the increase of the budget of the Department of Safety and Security will help us greatly in our fight against crime. However, we wish to place on record that a situation of overcrowding in our police stations is a serious concern since it places … [Time expired.] [Applause.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! Hon members, the Table staff is very vigilant. Once there is a disturbance like a point of order, the time for anybody who is speaking is really kept in abeyance. Their allocated time is never taken by such disturbances.

Mr J L THERON: Chairperson … [Interjections.] I can speak English, for that hon member’s information.

On Budget Vote 21, Defence, we can truly say that this is a case of too many chiefs and not enough troops. Personnel expenditure, with the exclusion of the arms deal, equates to an unsatisfactory 52% of the total budget, which is simply caused by too many generals and senior staff within the department. South Africa’s ratio … [Interjections.]

Mr N M RAJU: Chairperson, on a point of order: Is it parliamentary for someone to sit with a hat on while an hon member is speaking? [Laughter.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! It might be. If my memory serves me well - at your age you will have seen that - parliament was a house of hats. Ladies put on hats in parliament. Carry on, hon member. [Laughter.]

Mr J L THERON: Chairperson, personnel expenditure is 52% of the budget, which is simply caused by too many generals and senior staff within the department. South Africa’s ratio of one general for every 245 privates compares extremely poorly to other countries. It is extremely ironic that in the new democratic South Africa … [Interjections.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! Hon Theron, I regret to disturb you. Hon member Raju, this is unlike you. You are contemptuous towards me, and I do not expect that from you. [Laughter.] Please people, though we are all human and humorous, let us not turn our House into something like the British parliament. Continue, hon member.

Mr J L THERON: Chairperson, I hope I can now progress to another paragraph. It is extremely ironic that in the new democratic South Africa defence spending has risen to an importance similar to that found during the previous dispensation. In fact, the Department of Defence has been allocated the second biggest budget, totalling R18,4 billion.

Incidents in Burundi and the DRC provide enough reason to reconsider the deployment of our troops in these countries, especially in the light of the expensive and failed DRC conference at Sun City. The shocking findings of the joint investigative team released during November last year clearly implicated Government and definitely did not exonerate it.

Mr T S SETONA: Chairperson, I would like to ask if the hon member is willing to take a question.

Mr J L THERON: I will take no question from him. [Laughter.]

The suspension of the Chief Whip of the ANC, the resignation of Mr Shaik as the chief acquisition officer, the arrest of the managing director of a well-known German company and the subsequent prosecution indicate that Cabinet should, however, have been involved in the process of selecting the various contractors.

Die Regering het aangedui dat die koste van die wapentransaksie R52,7 miljard bedra terwyl die bedrag maklik verdubbel kan word as gevolg van finansieringskoste. Die Regering het dus nagelaat om die publiek in te lig oor die werklike korrekte koste vir die belastingbetaler. Die Regering moet ook weer gaan dink oor die verdere aankope van vegvliegtuie … (Translation of Afrikaans paragraph follows.)

[The Government has indicated that the costs of the arms deal amount to R52,7 billion, while the amount could easily be doubled owing to finance charges. The Government has therefore neglected to inform the public about the truly correct costs to the taxpayer. The Government should also reconsider the further purchase of fighter planes … ] … the so-called second tranche … aangesien dit hoegenaamd nie ooreenstem met huidige behoeftes nie. Dit is totaal onbekostigbaar. [… as this in no way corresponds with current needs. It is totally unaffordable.]

Surely, a review of the Defence Review needs to be undertaken. The scandalous arms deal and the deployments in Burundi and the DRC indicate that the force design and structure of the National Defence Force need reformulation, as indicated by the Minister. The Defence Ministry has, however, indicated that such a review will not take place.

Mr V V Z WINDVOëL: Chairperson, on a point of order: My view is that it is gravely unparliamentary for a member to point a finger at a national Minister, and I thus request that he apologises.

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! Hon members, when a person is talking, depending on the context, pointing a finger at someone might mean ridicule or something else. [Interjections.] Hon Theron, will you please continue.

Mnr J L THERON: Voorsitter, dankie. Ek is bly u probeer die orde hier handhaaf.

‘n Laaste ernstige probleem wat ek wil aanspreek, is die aankoopbeleid vir verdedigingsaankope. Soos in die begroting gesien kan word, word hierdie jaar alleen R7,6 miljard bestee aan die wapenaankooptransaksie, en dit sonder ‘n aanvaarde aankoopbeleid. In die gesamentlike ondersoek wat gedoen is ná die wapenaankooptransaksie, is in elke hoofstuk van die verslag daarop gewys dat die aankoopbeleid onvoldoende is, en dat dit ‘n oorsaak van die probleme was.

Tans is die aankoopbeleid nog nie gefinaliseer of goedgekeur nie. Die vraag is dus hoe al hierdie miljarde rande bestee kan word sonder ‘n goedgekeurde aankoopbeleid. Waarvolgens moet die amptenare hierdie aankope doen? Ek dink die Minister behoort ernstig aandag aan dié saak te skenk sodat vordering met hierdie belangrike probleem gemaak kan word. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.) [Mr J L THERON: Chairperson, thank you. I am glad that you are trying to maintain order here.

A final serious problem that I want to address is the procurement policy for defence acquisitions. As can be seen from the budget, in this year alone R7,6 billion is being expended on the arms purchase deal, and this without an acceptable procurement policy. In every chapter of the report on the joint investigation into the arms purchase deal it has been pointed out that the procurement policy is inadequate and that this has been a cause of the problems.

At present the procurement policy has not yet been finalised or approved. The question is therefore how all these billions of rands can be spent without an approved procurement policy. According to what must the officials arrange these procurements? I think the Minister ought to pay serious attention to this matter in order to make progress with this urgent problem.]

In conclusion, it is clear that the Department of Defence, with the assistance of the Ministry of Defence, has made it impossible for the DP and the DA to support this Budget Vote. The MINISTER OF CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Chairperson and hon members, it is always a pleasure for me to address this august House. I must say that today I appear before this House at a time when hon members’ good minds and hearts must be troubled with what the SABC’s Special Assigment screened last night. I am referring here to sharp incidents of corruption at Grootvlei prison.

Having said that, I must pause a bit and say that I want to heartily appreciate the motion which was moved by the hon Evelyn Lubidla about correctional services earlier on because I feel that it is also a source of inspiration when there is positive recognition of the work that we are trying to do with regard to corruption. I am also appreciative of the fact that there is a lot of moral outrage in the public and also within the House. People saw horrendous pictures last night and they feel morally outraged about what happened. I think that is understandable because I am also a little angry and outraged too. I think most of our officials who are not involved in such things also feel outraged.

A few years ago President Mbeki quoted from Chinua Achebe’s book Things Fall Apart. He was looking at how Chinua Achebe was disillusioned about the behaviour of African leaders after independence. He said that from the way they were doing things, he felt that they had learnt the art of deceit over a period of time and they were poisoning the nuts that they fed to their own friends.

I also remember President Kaunda, after his country’s independence, when civil servants were in dereliction of duty, sitting in parks and drinking because it was uhuru, and they were not going to work as they were supposed to. Sorrowfully, he had to threaten them by saying that he was going to resign from the presidency because, as he put it at that time, ``I refuse to lead a drunken nation’’. He felt betrayed. Chinua Achebe felt betrayed. What I saw yesterday made me feel betrayed as well. I think my officials also felt betrayed.

I must add that I want to appeal to this House not to take umbrage at what happened at Grootvlei and use that to condemn the entire prison system, because the majority of the officials are duty-conscious, law-abiding and committed to their work. It is only the minority who are guilty, and we are trying to deal with that.

As I have always said, in South Africa’s prison system we are dealing with deeply entrenched cultures and subcultures, involving both prison officials and prisoners. This is a system which mirrors society in many ways, including defying the laws of man and the laws of nature. The fact that we have people that are regarded as discarded social misfits, offenders incarcerated in institutions, means that we are going to find some of these things. They are going to defy the laws of man, they are going to defy the laws of nature.

The House has requested us as officials and as Ministers to deal with these issues, knowing that they will do that, they will defy these laws. It is for this reason that I continue to say that fighting corruption, in the criminal justice system and prisons, should be embraced by all - that is, the concerned public, concerned business, concerned nonstate actors, concerned Unions and the political parties. It should also be noted that the majority of prison officials are unionised, with heavy political leanings and influence.

Therefore we should not simply be interested in membership fees and votes, and then let them run loose, corrupting the institutions. I think we should curb that ourselves, as it is also our responsibility.

Subsequent to the brutal slaying of one of our top officials, Thuthukile Bhengu, in the Pietermaritzburg management area last year, I requested the President to establish a judicial commission of inquiry into the widespread allegations of corruption, maladministration and mismanagement in prisons.

The President, in consultation with the Minister for Justice and Constitutional Development, obliged and appointed Judge Thabang Jali to lead the commission. We often hear that the President instructed a commission to take on certain duties, but we all know that our President does not operate in that fashion. The President takes the needs and interests and requests of Ministers into account. So I made the request, because I was aware of this malice myself, and the President obliged. He did not instruct anybody; he does not operate that way.

The initial request was that the commission should focus on the large management areas in various provinces. However, with the commission having completed its work in two of the institutions in KwaZulu-Natal, more information and corruption in smaller or medium-sized institutions came to the fore, and I had to approach the President again to extend the scope of the commission to include the Grootvlei management area in the Free State. The SABC might say they were screening this so that the public might see what was happening, but we were on top of the problem already, so we should ask them why they screened it.

As a result of the activities broadcast on television last night, and while the commission continues with its work, I have, as an interim measure, given instructions for the four affected prisoners to be transferred to another prison, for their own safety. Secondly I have given further instructions for the suspension of all the warders implicated in the video … [Applause] … so that further investigations into the matter can proceed without hindrance.

We also expect that the report and recommendations of the Jali commission will provide Correctional Services with the platform and foundation to deal with these issues across the board, without investigating all the prisons in the country. We have about 238, if not 240, prisons around this country. We had selected only eight, and it was going to cost us about R10 million to do that with the commission. If we are asked to take 240, and let the commission to go through them all, then I do not think we will have the resources to deal with that.

The department will establish a committee that will ensure the implementation of the recommendations of the Jali commission, whereas the management board of the department will have to develop medium-term to long- term strategies in dealing with these issues. The department’s response must result in a sustainable and clean investigative and disciplinary capacity within the department. In the previous financial year up to March 2002, 236 reports on corruption through the hotline for whistle-blowing in our department were received. As a result 23 officials have been dismissed, 76 disciplined and 14 criminally convicted.

Furthermore I have approved the utilisation of external providers to investigate and establish business processes and systems and structures. The tendering process for the identification of a suitable provider is under way, and it is hoped that a selection will be made before the end of this month. This project, which is meant to re-engineer the department, is known as ``Gearing DCS for Rehabilitation’’.

The fundamental challenges that the department is facing will be addressed in this Medium-Term Expenditure Framework period, starting with the budget of about R6,8 billion allocated for the 2002-03 financial year. If the current progress is to be sustained, we need that money and we need more. Of this amount, R4,5 billion, which represents 66,26% of the total budget, will go towards human resources, as we are a labour-intensive department.

I always said to my colleagues here, to the Minister here and the Minister of Safety and Security, that if we take the number of incarcerated prisoners, including those who are on probation and those who are on parole, and compare that with the combined number of the army and the police, we have a serious situation. We ought to be concerned that we have an army there which outnumbers the official army and the police combined. [Laughter.] Throughout the world we can find some islands with a population smaller than our prison population, which means we could take them out and create an independent state somewhere. I am simply emphasising the level of the growth of the prison population in South Africa. It is rapid.

The department is committed to making its presence felt in provinces through projects that will be piloted under the following broad areas of operation, among others: rehabilitation - members have mentioned that - poverty alleviation and community corrections. Rehabilitation, we believe, provides programmes for skills and personal development, as well as processes for reintegrating prisoners into the community, and remains at the centre of our core business.

One speaker here was a little bit sceptical about rehabilitation. I do not know what we could do with those people if we did not rehabilitate them. I think people are outraged about what they saw last night, but it is not the whole picture. This is what has been happening in all these big institutions. Again we know that they are not staying there, and we do not have the death sentence any more. So they are going to prison and they are coming back out. We are saying when they come back they should be in a position to make a positive impact in reducing crime among the public. That is why we have also moved the approach of restorative justice, by which the community, the victims and the perpetrators could all go through a process of healing. If members say we should not do those things, then I do not know.

The allocated budget for this programme, though not sufficient, is about R353 million, and represents only a one percent increase over the previous year. In making reference to our rehabilitation programmes, it is worth noting that a multidisciplinary assessment tool for prisoner profiles, appropriate development programmes and production projects providing skills to offenders will be finalised during this financial year.

Other programmes focus on agriculture, wood, steel and textile production projects. When I was introducing my Budget Vote in the National Assembly, members may have noticed some of the articles which were displayed outside here which have been produced by prisoners. We are currently serving 17 Government departments and producing for our own consumption. I think self- sufficiency in food production and consumption in all the prisons combined is about 72%, and the rest is provided through the budget. We believe that literacy is the foundation stone in rehabilitation, hence we provide adult basic education and training, Abet, in collaboration with external stakeholders, including the Department of Education. Our target is to educate and train more than 11 000 prisoners in Abet programmes, 11 500 in basic occupational skills, and 7 800 in business management skills in the current MTEF cycle. Well, some people might say that out of 175 000 prisoners, this is a small number. But I think it is quite a number in one financial year.

Out of the 14 planned skills training centres, four are nearing completion at Polokwane in the Limpopo province, Odi in the North West, Johannesburg in Gauteng and Bethal in Mpumalanga, and I am sure the respective MECs who are here, and I have mentioned their areas, must also be happy that we are contributing towards their work in those areas. Three have already been opened at St Albans in the Eastern Cape and Upington and Kimberley in the Northern Cape.

The department’s poverty alleviation programme was officially launched in the presence of the Deputy President at Zonderwater at the beginning of April this year. The department launched the programme in response to the President’s call to all of us to contribute to poverty alleviation and rural development, and to embrace the spirit of Letsema and Vukuzenzele, as he pronounced in his state of the nation address early this year. The intention is to support community development projects such as the building of rural schools, partnerships in agricultural projects, carpentry, construction and other projects in which the community will require such assistance.

As an implementation strategy the department works together with nongovernmental agencies and community-based organisations and involves them in these poverty alleviation and distribution programmes. The department contributed a piece of land in Zonderwater to the many people of the Motsweding district to be used for vegetable production, so that the produce could be distributed to those who are in dire need. Here we were saying that the community ought to select the institutions where we have the disabled, the old age pensioners, the children’s feeding schemes. These are the areas they should target with their produce.

In Thohoyandou, 20 prisoners took part in the construction of classrooms for the children of Mutshalingana Primary School. This followed a request made by the Vondwe community for assistance in the construction of classrooms to ease the plight of children in the area who were being taught under trees at that point. I think here I must pause to say that I appreciated the assistance of the MEC for safety and liaison and also Kgoshi Mokoena, who were instrumental in facilitating these things.

Since the construction of this project, our Thohoyandou management area alone has received about 24 more similar requests, including one from the University of Venda. Now, if a university recognises that prisoners can actually build parts of the university, I think we ought to be proud of that. Does Mr Matthee not also think so? I think so. [Applause.] If one looks at the building that they erected there, for those children at Mutshalingana, one would say it was built by professional builders or engineers - people who knew what they were doing. This is because we had bricklayers and engineers who were trained in prison, and some trained in electrification and roofing. That is why it was quite professional. Now they can even do it for the university.

It is our desire that projects such as the one I have just referred to be rolled out to all parts of the country where we have a presence. We are aware of our capacity and resource constraints, but we shall do everything within our means to ensure that projects of this nature form part of our poverty alleviation strategy. Our initial plan is to provide such a facility in each of the nine provinces depending on the availability of the land and on the circumstances prevailing in each province.

It is, however, unfortunate that on 9 June 2002 we lost through wildfire the production of about 15 050 kg of maize ready to be harvested at one of our projects, that is the Amakhaya Farm Project in Mpumalanga. Again, this is where a piece of land was allocated to Correctional Services by one Nkosi Mthethwa. Here, the prisoners work with the members of the community to produce for their consumption and for the poor within that community. This loss represents about 251 bags of maize weighing 60 kg each.

We inaugurated the community corrections forum for the Limpopo province in Polokwane in November last year to encourage the active participation of the community in the rehabilitation process of the prisoner as a collective responsibility and to strengthen partnerships with the community. Another purpose is to decentralise community corrections offices in order to make them more accessible to offenders because some offenders are not able to afford the travelling expenses of getting to these offices for reporting.

Therefore they abscond and then have a high record of absconding. The majority of them, again, have been stigmatised; they do not find jobs. But we expect them to visit the police corrections offices to record that they are still within the area. So these community corrections forums are meant for that - to assist those offenders. In addition, other provinces have also established community corrections forums where members of the community are involved in the activities of the department.

Overcrowding remains one of the biggest challenges facing our department. The MEC alluded to that earlier on. Overcrowding violates the human rights of offenders, results in the overextension of our staff and creates conditions that are not conducive to rehabilitation. For both prisoners and officials, overcrowding is really not a good thing. Statistics indicate that 4 out of every 1 000 South Africans are in prison and that more than a third of pre-sentenced prisoners who pose no threat to society are in prison merely because they are unable to afford bail, even if is R50. I told the House some time back that Judge Fagan told me about a boy he found in the Free State who was in prison awaiting trial for three months. He asked the boy, Why are you here?'' And this young fellow said, Well, I stole two mangoes’’, and he has been in prison for three months. One feeds this fellow at a rate of R95 a day and he stole two mangoes! What does one do with that situation?

Overcrowding owing to awaiting trial, sentenced and pre-sentenced prisoners stands at 55 500. However, it should be noted that alternative accommodation for pre-sentenced or awaiting trial prisoners would not remove overcrowding completely. Various mechanisms utilised to address the size of the pre-sentenced prisoner population among the Justice, Crime Prevention and Security, JCPS, cluster should be intensified.

The Department of Correctional Services has established a task team for an anti-overcrowding strategy and requested the JCPS cluster task group into overcrowding to resolve the cross-cutting responsibilities of overcrowding and to find longer-term solutions for Cabinet to deliberate on, and to monitor criminal justice processes in order to proactively address generators of overcrowding.

Here, I am simply saying that overcrowding is not the responsibility of Correctional Services alone. I think that has been said over and over again. I have also told this House of the case of two young boys aged of 11 and 12, who were offenders, I think, for breaking in and stealing. The magistrate said they had to go to prison, to Pollsmoor. Our area manager said that they were too young to be taken to prison, but he was told that he would soon be charged with contempt. So he had to take them in. What does one do in those circumstances? In this regard, one would say that children do not belong in prison. I say to Mr Lever that these are the things that I encounter.

Last year Parliament amended the Correctional Services Act to allow for greater community participation in the parole system. The establishment of decision-making parole boards with community representation has been referred to the Chairperson of the National Council for Correctional Services, Judge Siraj Desai, to assist in determining the criteria for selection of candidates from the community and in setting up the new parole boards throughout the country.

The Judicial Inspectorate, under the leadership of Judge J J Fagan, needs to be commended also for the support they have given us, especially in dealing with the issues of overcrowding. Their facilitation in the implementation of sections 62(f) and 63(a) of the Criminal Procedure Act is continuing to assist us in dealing with overcrowding.

In conclusion, I would like to express my appreciation for the support that we are continuing to receive from this House, from the chairperson of the Select Committee on Justice, Kgoshi Mokoena, from other stakeholders in this House and also from the provinces in our efforts to build a safer community for all. We are only able to extend our services to all provinces if we can rely on hon members’ co-operation so that we can also contribute to our ultimate aim of building a better life for all. [Applause.]

Mr B J MKHALIPHI: Chairperson, hon Ministers and hon members, the restriction of movement, communication, interaction and denial of access to the amenities of life is viewed as a suitable and civilised form of punitive measure meted out to those who have been found to be in conflict with the law. The state is obliged to keep those accused and found guilty in safe and humane custody, regardless of the offence committed. Safe custody entails here the imprisonment of an individual so that certain harmful acts against citizens and property are curtailed. It also secures the offender against possible revenge action by the offended. Paradoxically, safe custody of offenders even thwarts gang wars.

The attainment of more political rights with an imbalance of socioeconomic rights in terms of the depressed state of the economy poses its own contradiction. The decline in formal employment renders large sections of the population unable to fend for themselves and their dependants. Committing a crime might be viewed as the only alternative because in terms of this reasoning it will provide instant relief for the need, and, if caught, one is guaranteed accommodation and a regular meal.

In reality, there is no longer an excuse to harbour such negative thoughts since poverty alleviation and capacity-building funds are there, to mention just a few, for almost every citizen with a positive and enterprising mind, as long as he or she comes to grips with the reality that the Government accords one opportunities, and not ready-made job opportunities to sustain oneself and one’s fellow humans. Self-created jobs have usually no limits in terms of expansion and have the added advantage of breeding new entrepreneurs who espouse a higher degree of patriotism, since they have a larger stake to protect in terms of the community and the environment.

Recreation facilities in prisons should, at best, be restricted to the need to sustain a healthy body and mind, and not be in the luxury category. The same could be said about food and accommodation. There are other challenges involved. For instance: How does one limit the external performances of music shows by the famous choir of Barberton prison? How does one prohibit the community of Carolina who clamour for the moving sermons of Rev Magwaza inside the prison? Surely we cannot refuse to release the talented tailor Zakes Thomo on parole, since Carolina Outfitters are desperate for his skills?

We need to take a serious look at the policy regarding prisoners having babies within the prisons for the sake of these innocent infants who are brought up in this abnormal environment. There is a saying to consider: What is learnt in the cradle lasts to the tomb.

Habitual offenders, that is recidivists, have the potential of reversing and even negating whatever gains are attained through community corrections processes. Disincentives should be put in place, for instance no parole should be considered for any confirmed habitual offender.

On average the majority of prisons are managed well and are thus well geared to deal with the critical project of rehabilitating prisoners. A change in attitude, as we know, and behaviour cannot be demanded of the inmates. This process cannot be physically measured since it involves a sophisticated, but spontaneous and gradual change in the inner self of the inmates. But corrupt prison officials have discredited themselves and cannot, by any measure, be entrusted with these holy matters of the soul.

The Jali Commission of Inquiry, the work of Judge Fagan and our own oversight role of the prison services, will hopefully assist us in bringing about a clean administration and management in the prisons so that we do not have to contend with horrible and sordid incidents such as those of Grootvlei Prison, as shown on Special Assignment last night.

As we proceed with the initiative of private prisons we should make sure that we receive the expected returns for that investment. Lessons from other public-private partnerships indicate that these partners usually concern themselves solely with the letter and ignore the spirit of the agreement. By doing so they are throwing away the public participation of the community. We cannot say more about the rush for profit.

The challenges and lessons emanating from the project of Kokstad Prison demand of us to refine our consultation and communication methods when dealing with projects of this nature.

In conclusion, may I express my utter surprise and, in fact, appreciation for the attitude that was displayed by the officials when they came to brief us. I have never heard of officials saying: ``We are well resourced in terms of the budget and other resources.’’ [Applause.]

Mr M R MZOBE (KwaZulu-Natal): Chairperson, hon members of the Council, effective policing is a prerequisite for a law-abiding and orderly society within which the lives and property of citizens are protected, thus allowing people to pursue their everyday lives in peace and harmony. Therefore, law and order a prerequisite for the attainment of justice and equity in society.

While crime prevention remains the responsibility of the entire community, community policing does not absolve the Government from its primary responsibility of maintaining law and order and fighting crime. Policing should be goal-oriented, police visibility must be enhanced within the community and petty crimes should not be overlooked while concentrating resources on more serious crimes. Serious policing of petty crime has the effect of reducing crime at all levels, as shown in New York City.

Police recruitment should match the demographic composition of the population, and quality and merit should be paramount considerations in staffing. Notwithstanding the financial constraints, police officers should be paid fair work-related salaries. Despite the fact that we have an insufficient number of police officers, they have nevertheless demonstrated their unwavering determination in executing their duties to such an extent that they have been able to curtail the flames of violence that once engulfed our country in its entirety.

South African prisons are filled to capacity because the police are doing an outstanding job. The police are systematically assassinated from right, left and centre, particularly when they chase fleeing suspects. I find it most disturbing and extremely inconsiderate of the Constitutional Court to rule that the police may no longer shoot at fleeing criminals. What is the point of the police carrying firearms then? It is for this reason that I support the notion that the Constitutional Court might as well take the firearms away from the police and hand them over to the criminals to continue with their dirty work, given that the police can only shoot when they know that criminals have shot at or killed a person in the Police Service.

The rule of law must be restored in South Africa. I am very grateful that the hon Ministers in the cluster are on top of what I am talking about. Though South Africa cannot transform its criminal justice system overnight, the justice system must, however, at all times be effective and open to all, provided that the Government has the will to achieve its intended goals. Otherwise, nothing can be done, if the Government does not have the will to do that which the Minister pursues even if the hon Minister wants to carry on with his job.

The Department of Justice and Constitutional Development must employ a sufficient amount of manpower so that cases are dealt with accordingly and to create breathing space in prisons to curtail or eradicate completely the number of escapees. The Department of Correctional Services, with the assistance of its sister cluster departments, must build enough prisons to provide sufficient accommodation for prisoners through the length and breadth of our country. It is extremely pleasing that hon Ministers are not told what to do, but are on top of what worries us and what scares foreign investors.

Every opportunity should be taken to minimise the likelihood of offenders repeating their crimes and being incarcerated in prison on a more or less permanent basis. Rehabilitation is thus crucial in assisting prisoners in a life for themselves after their release and it must not be ignored for fear of exacerbating, rather than alleviating, the situation our crowded prisons. So one is hopeful that the Ministers are on top of this. Tomorrow, or in the very near future, we will see the curtailment or complete eradication of what we saw last night.

I believe that Government should implement the programmes dealing with working for a living in prison with moral acceptance of responsibility and with community work during incarceration. I would like to say to the hon Minister and his colleagues that one really should express one’s gratefulness that the things we are talking about are already in progress, the Minister is already addressing them. Therefore, we really need to thank him and his colleagues.

Governments throughout the world establish defence forces to protect their respective foreign territories, hence the defence force must be empowered to fulfil its constitutional mandate through adequate state resourcing of a long-term defence acquisition programme. However, the defence acquisition programme should take into account the socioeconomic conditions of South African society, its position on the subcontinent and its economic, ecological and maritime responsibilities.

In other words, expenditure must match the threat that the country potentially faces. We must not let nations with prestige or status allow us to spend beyond our means on defence, whilst neglecting the overwhelming poverty that the country faces.

Having said that, the province of the kingdom of KwaZulu-Natal indeed supports unconditionally the job well done by the clustered Ministries, headed by their hon Ministers. [Applause.]

Mr S SHICEKA (Gauteng): Chairperson, Ministers, NCOP members, colleagues from the different provinces, today I stand in this House with the intention of contributing to the budget debate for the fiscal year 2002-03. I would also like to pay tribute to the late Minister of Safety and Security, Comrade Steve Vukile Tshwete, for his contribution and dedication to eradicating crime and criminality in our country.

The late Minister Tswete was gifted with, among other things, the quality of motivating and boosting the morale of those he worked with, no matter what level they were at. The commitment and the approach of the late Minister and his colleagues in the criminal justice cluster has produced remarkable results. Minister Tshwete served this country and this nation with distinction, and deserves this salute and our praise for his selflessness and for being a true patriot until the end.

In keeping with the approach outlined in the National Crime Prevention Strategy and the White Paper on Safety and Security, this debate requires a dual approach to safety and security, effective and efficient law enforcement and programmes to reduce the occurrence of crime at all levels. Our actions and interventions have proved beyond doubt that there is what we call effective monitoring and evaluation of police performance. Members of the public with whom we continually engage will measure our performance as a state.

The national justice, crime prevention and security cluster has come up with key strategic goals and priorities. In Gauteng the strategy is being implemented on two broad fronts, ie the stabilisation of crime levels, stretching from 2001 to 2003; and the normalisation of crime situations.

The SAPS has identified certain strategic goals and 145 police stations have been prioritised - these stations account for more than 50% of serious crime. In Gauteng, 28 priority stations and two presidential stations were identified. The number of priority stations have now been reduced to 20 owing to the fact that others have stabilised.

We have seen a downward trend in serious crimes such as murder, housebreaking, breaking into business premises, the theft of motor vehicles, commercial crime, high-profile aggravated robbery such as car hijacking, the hijacking of trucks, and cash-in-transit heists and bank robberies. However, we are experiencing an upward trend in crimes such as theft, robbery and sexual abuse.

The stabilisation of and reduction in crime at eight of these stations is indeed an outstanding achievement of the police and other components of the criminal justice system. It is also an affirmation of the fact that whilst a lot has to be done, the integration process of the criminal justice system, together with other law-enforcement agencies, in partnership with communities, has grown tremendously and must be sustained. However, the lack of joint planning and the poor sharing of information still have to be addressed if we are to succeed beyond the current levels.

In order to consolidate the gains made at these stations, one of the challenges that we have to deal with is the integration of SAPS public order policing into crime combating units to conduct continual operations such as roadblocks, cordons and searches. These units will be established in each of the identified areas to support stations and help hasten the process of crime reduction. In those areas where we have realised stabilisation with regard to serious crimes, a process of normalisation will be implemented through the development and implementation of a multidisciplinary approach and partnership with the concerned role-players.

Although violence against women is not endemic to South Africa, it differs both in frequency and type from the violence that men experience. Women are, for example, vulnerable to sexual abuse and attack in their homes. Violence against women and children has been and will continue to be high on our agenda at all levels of government.

We are impressed with the way in which society has started to break the silence and speak out against sexual abuse and domestic violence. Crimes against women and children have received considerable publicity, particularly the rape of the girl child. People and victims are now prepared to speak out and report such incidents to the police. As for the rape of minor children, parents are called upon to increase their care of children. In most cases, children are left without care or parents forsake their protective responsibility. Parenting education has to be intensified at our maternity clinics, welfare institutions and other bodies. One of the key issues we have to strive for is family preservation. This can be done through working with communities of faith and with various community-based organisations, focusing on ensuring that the family really becomes the basic unit of society and of influence.

The struggle concerning the prevention of violence against women must be pursued in tandem with the wider struggle for the emancipation of women broadly. The ultimate success of this struggle lies in the total emancipation of society at large and also in equal access to resources and all levers of powers. In partnership with organizations … [Interjections.]

The MINISTER OF DEFENCE: Chairperson, on a point of order, if I may: Would it, in fact, be correct for a speaker in the House to be referred to by an unknown name and therefore mislead those of us who are following the proceedings? Here we have the hon Shiceka addressing us, but I see it says ``Mzobe’’ on the television screens. [Laughter.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! I thank the hon the Minister for drawing this to the attention of those who are responsible for the technology out there. The hon member may continue. [Laughter.]

Mr S SHICEKA: Madam Chair, as part of ensuring that our criminal justice system becomes effective and efficient, we will be evaluating the impact of diversion and rehabilitation programmes based on the best-practice models. Our view is that we need to mobilise communities, including justice personnel, to make use of alternative sentencing models in order to deal with the unacceptably high levels of overcrowding and allow some prisoners to serve their sentences in communities.

One of the problems that we have identified during our monitoring and evaluation of the criminal justice system, or CJS, is the problem of awaiting-trial prisoners, as has been said by many people. To alleviate this problem, a study to determine blockages facing awaiting-trial prisoners in correctional institutions such as Johannesburg prisons will be undertaken. Based on the findings, recommendations will be made to the CJS cluster, both provincially and nationally.

To ensure swift prosecution and the alleviation of backlogs in cases, in Johannesburg the process of setting up municipal courts to deal with all cases pertaining to bylaws and traffic fines is at an advanced stage. We hope that the court will be operational before the end of this year.

In conclusion, with all eyes on Johannesburg for the World Summit on Sustainable Development, our law-enforcement agencies have started the necessary preparations by drafting a security plan. We are confident that we will show the world that South Africa, and Johannesburg in particular, is capable of hosting such big events. We are in no doubt that we shall be equal to the task. [Applause.]

The MINISTER OF SAFETY AND SECURITY: Madam Chair, the first thing I want to do is to highlight a matter that was raised, albeit very briefly, by the hon Connie Seoposengwe. I suppose that the fact that she did not travel any distance with respect to the matter had to do with the fact that she did not want to steal my thunder. She raised the issue of some arrests which were made this morning. Early this morning police from the Northern Cape mounted raids simultaneously in a number of areas in Port Nolloth, Kimberley, Cape Town and Upington, and arrested 25 suspected criminals in those raids. Later in the day, as a result of ongoing investigations, eight more people were arrested, giving a total of 33. All of them will be appearing in our courts tomorrow.

The matter has to do with activities relating to diamond dealing as well as other related illicit activities. The operation, called Operation Solitaire, was spearheaded by members of the Diamond and Gold Branch working together with our crime intelligence units and personnel from the Department of Justice and Constitutional Development. As we speak, more arrests are expected. [Applause.]

Allow me, at this stage, to congratulate everyone who was involved in the operation on the sterling work they did and the clear message their success is sending to criminals of every type and kind right through our country. Well done! An important element of the successes we register against crime is the support we continue to get from our communities. Operation Solitaire has received tremendous support from many civilians in the spirit of the partnerships between our communities and the entire South African criminal justice system.

I wish to inform hon members of this House that on Monday last week the police commenced an operation which is intended to ensure that our National Crime Prevention Strategy yields the successes we want it to. Part of our programme during the current financial year is the adoption of measures to prevent the occurrence of social crime. I have already directed the police to do a proper analysis of the crimes that occur in these police areas to determine which of them can be addressed by way of social crime prevention and socioeconomic development programmes. This matter will be taken forward in meetings that I intend to have in the next three months with all the provinces and local authorities. This is one area where safety and security MECs, as well as members of provincial legislatures, can play a decisive role. The causes identified can be addressed by way of programmes and strategies at provincial level in co- operation with national structures. Many services, such as education and welfare, are provided and co-ordinated at a provincial level and are invaluable in addressing the root causes of crime.

In addition, all public order policing units are being transformed into area crime combating units that will conduct intelligence-driven operations which require high force levels. Incidentally, our breakthrough in respect of the crimes that I referred to and the arrests we have made had to do with the fact that we have intelligence structures in place that do tremendous work. But the best intelligence officers one will have at any point are our people, because they are the repository of information and they have better information-gathering skills. Examples of these will be parallel roadblocks on highways and secondary routes and cordon-and-search operations. These are intended to deal effectively with bank robberies, cash-in-transit heists and the hijacking of vehicles, as well as taxi and gang violence, which remain a scourge in certain provinces.

The SAPS has already purchased 50 high-performance vehicles to implement the first phase of this approach in all provinces. New helicopters have also been acquired to provide air support to the mobile units. This capacity must be expanded further to make more inroads against crime, and we are currently addressing this matter.

The department has been reviewing its allocations for operational expenditure. While 78% of the budget will be allocated to personnel expenditure, this split is rational. The 22% that is destined for operations will allow us to fully implement our strategic plan for the financial year. The budget indicates an 8,6% increase from the last allocation and a 9,2% increase over the MTEF period. That 8,6% translates into R1,2 billion, and that is the amount of money that is available to us during this current financial year.

In respect of the annual allocation split between national structures and the provinces, I am indeed proud to inform this House that 65,4% of the current financial year’s budget has been allocated to provinces and 34,6% to national structures. This compares most favourably to figures for the entire national Government, which reflect a split between national and provincial allocations of 40,5% and 59,5% respectively.

It must, however, also be kept in mind that many of these national structures function within the provinces as decentralised units. I specifically refer, in this regard, to units such as Public Order Policing, the Air Wing and other specialised functions such as the Special Task Force. These structures all conduct their duties within the various provinces in support of crime-combating operations and day-to-day policing.

The matter of our deployment in terms of personnel and equipment in our fight against crime was raised ably by Kgoshi Mokoena and I therefore want to address myself briefly to it. The current allocation will enable us to enlist approximately 7 100 new recruits in the current financial year and 8 900 additional recruits in the next three years. A total of 28 560 new personnel will be appointed over the MTEF period, and by the end of that period it is envisaged that the police establishment will therefore rise to 147 560 members. The hon Dikeledi Magadzi also raised the question of the ratio between members and the population. In her case, in Limpopo - or the Northern Province, as it is not officially Limpopo yet - the ratio is one member to 700 members of our population, while the international average is one member to 461 members of the public.

But in our situation in South Africa the ratio is slightly lower. It is one police member to 446 members of the population. It is our intention that we bring this into a better perspective through a better balancing programme. In the end, we want it to be 1:438. But finally - and we believe we can get to this - we want it to be 1:400.

Of course, the question of gender was also raised as part and parcel of Kgoshi Mokoena’s input regarding our transformation exercise and with respect to this there are some figures that I quickly want to bring to the attention of this hon House. I will use the period from the establishment of the Police Service in 1995 to date. At that point of transformation the matter was as follows with respect to senior management in the service: In 1995 only 1% at senior management level was female and in 1999, at the beginning of the life of the second Parliament, it was raised a little to 4%. At this point 11% of the people deployed at our senior management level are female. With respect to middle management, in 1995 it was 3% female and in 1999 11%, and where we stand it is 16%.

At the two junior levels, the first level being 8-10, the situation is as follows: In 1995 it was 14% female and in 1999 it was 18%, and where we stand it is 22%. The next junior level, which is lower than the level I have referred to, the situation in 1995 was that 20% of the contingent at that level were female, and in 1999 this increased very slightly to 21%, and where we are at now it is 24%. It is our desire that we should bring all these matters into line with the democratic transformation that is happening in our country. Therefore, more female members of the service are going to be promoted to these particular positions.

In terms of our recruitment drive, which I have referred to, some of the people who we recruit will be deployed for effective policing in clearly demarcated sectors. In the beginning, of course, we want to concentrate on the 145 crime-policing areas that we have referred to. We want therefore to direct our new recruits there. These are people who will be visible, highly mobile and proactive, and people who will be carefully chosen so that they are able to interface with people who are in those communities, in terms of our strategy of partnerships between our people and those who serve them as part and parcel of our desire to lend a hand to ensure that we provide our people with a better life.

Sector policing will use, as a springboard for focused attention against criminals, the successes of Operation Crackdown. It is also intended to establish programmes that will address crime through a series of multidisciplinary initiatives. The hon Leonard Ramatlakane has raised problems in the Western Cape. Indeed there has been a resurgence of gangsterism in the province. The SANDF has withdrawn some of the units that we had from that department assisting the police in their work. However, we have deployed people whose numbers may not be equal to those of the army units that have been withdrawn, but the fact of the matter is that we have provided these people with the resources so that they can do the work that needs to be done. Of course we are going to continually review our strategies and tactics in terms of this particular issue.

I want to refer to a matter which was raised by the hon Piet Matthee with respect to a meeting we had with members of the New NP. We welcome the encouraging remarks that he made with respect to that incident.

As the members may have seen, newspaper headlines in the past few days have raised the issue of farm killings. There are various people, from political commentators who are independent to politicians, some of whom are members of our Parliament, whose comments have been, in the first instance, quite caustic. Others have related farm killings to what they say is failure on the part of the Government with respect to this particular matter.

Those comments go on to say that a report was compiled on this matter and is lying on my desk because it is either unattended to or because we are unwilling to release it for public consumption. The truth is that there is no such report. These are false allegations. On 5 April last year my predecessor, the hon Steve Tshwete, appointed a committee, headed by Adv Charl du Plessis, to investigate farm attacks. My Government is concerned about the murder of any of our people. As a matter of fact, our President addressed this particular issue this afternoon saying that our people would not be threatened with death and killed, that and ``our people’’ meant the entire South African population. He said that nobody had the right to murder one of our people. Singing that tune is consistent on the part of our Government.

Barely a week after my appointment I directed communication to the head of the committee investigating farm murders to ask what the status of their inquiry was. They responded promptly. My letter was written on 13 May and on 15 May I got a response which indicated how mammoth the task was that we had asked them to do. Precisely because it is such a huge obligation, they have not been able to complete their work and there are reasons why they have not been able to. One of the important things they want to do once they have completed the inquiry is that, like true South Africans, they do not just want to whinge, but to provide us with a way forward and with a process in which we can resolve this particular problem. That report is not available yet but there are people working on it, and I am sure we will get it in time to come. Given that firearms are a major factor in the commission of serious and violent crimes, we have allocated R50 million of our budget for the implementation of the Firearms Control Act. We have appointed, to that extent, approximately 300 additional designated firearm officers to take charge of the matter. We have also increased our IT capacity regarding the matter and have acquired more vehicles to increase the mobility of our members.

Crimes against women and children have featured quite prominently in our debates in our Parliament. Assistance from many sources, including the business community, has enabled the Police Service to improve victim empowerment services - a matter which was raised in the context of the debate in this House today by, I think, Kgoshi Mokoena - especially with regard to women and children, particularly the girl child. This includes the establishment of more than 80 additional victim support centres at various police stations. The effort to create an environment conducive to confidentiality during the interview process in respect of sexual offences is ongoing. A proactive approach, however, is still necessary if we are to reduce the number of victims. We have to be proactive and stop these crimes from happening. This is particularly so in respect of rape. The police have identified 128 station areas that contribute more or less 50% of the national rape statistics in our country. Special projects will be implemented in these areas to give effect to the interdepartmental antirape strategy of the National Prosecuting Authority, the Departments of Health and Social Development and the SA Police Service.

These projects will focus on increasing the number of units dealing with family violence, child protection and sexual offences of the SA Police Service. To this extent we have given a large chunk of our budget in order for us to engage such members of the Police Service, train them and ensure that they are equipped fully in order for them to fight this scourge. I believe that this will go a long way in assisting both the victims and investigators in bringing the perpetrators to book.

We also have a victim support programme which will be expanded to assist victims during the criminal justice process. A recent docket analysis has indicated that more than 40% of rape cases were withdrawn at the request of the victims. The tendency must be turned around and justice must take its course. There are several reasons that contribute to the withdrawal of this type of case.

Of course we also have a programme on prevention and public education which we will launch. In this regard, a comprehensive research programme is under way to determine the profiles of the offenders, their belief systems and the reasons for the crimes they commit in order to ensure the implementation of focused preventive action. This is obviously necessary in order for us to have an all-encompassing strategy that we will employ to fight these particular crimes.

In addition, the department, along with its partners in the cluster and other government departments such as Social Development and Health, has embarked on a process of erecting nine one-stop community safety centres. These centres are designed to provide an integrated service to the community. For example, a victim of crime would only have to travel to this centre to get all the necessary assistance. He or she would be able to get treatment at the clinic, lay formal charges at the police station and attend trials at court - all in one location. This is based on the system of one-stop-based services. There are centres, therefore, at Thembalethu in the Western Cape, Kentani in the Eastern Cape, Leboeng in Limpopo, Khutsong in Gauteng and Nsimbini in KwaZulu-Natal, which have all been completed. At Tshidilamolomo in the North West construction is in progress and the centre should be completed next month. The centre at Galeshewe in the Northern Cape should be completed by November 2003, while construction of a second centre in that province will be located at Augrabies. Construction will commence after the first centre has been completed.

At Thabang - sorry, Thabong - in the Free State, site verification is still in progress and construction should commence in the next financial year. I was wondering why it was ``Thabang’’; I thought that it had to do with the hon Makwetla. [Laughter.] This is a typographical error. The only province in which a community safety centre has not been established is Mpumalanga. The reasons for this are that a suitable site could not be verified and that there was nonperformance on the part of the appointed consultant to compile a business plan. So we want to encourage the MEC from Mpumalanga to take charge of this process so that a centre is also established there.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Hon Minister, would you be kind enough to wrap up, because I think your time has almost expired.

The MINISTER OF SAFETY AND SECURITY: I have three sentences left. The first one is that our structures for the advancement of our democracy, which are operating within our service, are in place and working well, that is the Independent Complaints Directorate as well as our national Secretariat. These structures are approached regularly for assistance to international structures of the same kind.

The last point is that I will be happy if members go back home and mobilise everybody behind our programme to fight against crime. This is not a party- political football. It is a matter where all of us should unite because crime relates to all of our people. The criminals will not attack one for being a member of the DP. They will not attack one for belonging to the New NP or the ANC. Criminals attack people, and in order for us to turn this around, let us unite our resources, human and material, to defeat this scourge. [Applause.]

The MINISTER OF CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Chairperson, I do not want to detain colleagues here much longer. We have said a lot, really. What I need to say is that I want to thank all those members who have contributed and also those who sat and listened. We appreciate an audience.

I have said a few words about the hon member Lubidla and expressed appreciation for her motion. I also appreciate the suggestions made by the hon Lever and I hope that my officials who were here when he spoke took those points down. It is quite a long list.

The hon Magadzi’s concerns about the dangerous criminals being put with juveniles are noted. We will also look into that. I think the policy remains that they should not be combined, but rather separated. I know that because of overcrowding it does happen, in some cases, that they are put together, but it is sometimes simply a case of neglect of duty.

I appreciate also the points raised by the hon Seoposengwe, but she shocked me a little bit when she said that I should watch television tonight. I thought: My God, after seeing what I saw last night? [Laughter.] [Interjections.] I nearly ran out. Must I, of all people, go back to that? I also appreciate the points raised by the hon Ramatlakane with regard to corruption and also the treatment of inmates. I think we will also look into that.

I will look into what both the hon Maloyi and Prince Zulu said. The hon Mkhaliphi made several points on safe custody with the reason for imprisonment, which is a historical fact about prisons throughout the world. Why do we imprison people? We will try to answer that one too. The health situation of children will also be addressed. I think it is important for me to deal with Rev Makwaza’s point quickly, because if we are talking about rehabilitation, it is not only physical, it is also spiritual. If we have somebody wanting to help spiritually, then we need to take that up.

On the issue of babies in prison, we have no choice. There are people who are arrested and come into prison already pregnant. They have babies in prison. The policy is that the babies should be there for at least three to five years. They are kept separate. In fact, we are trying to promote preschools and crèches in prison, so that they can be taught during that time. If one takes the baby from the mother at a few months old and puts it somewhere else, what is going to happen? What we are saying is that our policy is that the baby should be there with the mother until the age of three to five. The family can then take care of the baby or the baby can be adopted. It is a difficult situation where one cannot tell the mother to leave the baby after two months. It is a sad state of affairs. It is not a simple matter of simply telling her not to have a baby there in prison. She must have the baby, and then we should take care of the baby and all the rest until the baby can be adopted.

A point was raised about the PPPs, that is the public-private partnerships. I think we will also want to deal with that issue. A number of concerns were raised about the profit motive and also some political and ideological issues around that. I must also say generally that these benefit not only only those who have acquired the contract, but also the small businesspeople around there who have shares in those institutions. We do not want to say that people must be perpetual labourers. At some point they have to own shares in an institution like that one. We will deal with that one also and try and advance some reasons. We will try.

Issues regarding Kokstad were raised. I do not think I had any option. The building was being built. It was planned, designed and I found it already being built. I could not say, ``No, do not continue.’’ A lot of people had been employed and they were building the prison because we wanted a prison, despite the fact that the original planning was not that good. I think we had to decide whether we wanted the prison or not. In the face of this kind of overcrowding and high levels of crime I thought we needed to have a prison.

I think I have answered Mr Mzobe’s point about building more prisons. We had to build Kokstad, but we cannot, as Government, build ourselves out of overcrowding. No country has ever done that. We cannot do it at the rate at which we are arresting people. My colleague the Minister of Safety and Security came to me and jokingly said, Well, Mhlanga, I have some bad news for you.'' He knew that in the criminal justice system I am always the one who gets bad news. [Laughter.] He went on to say:I’m going to flood your prisons with people.’’ I thought: ``My God! Here it comes again.’’ [Laughter.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Hon Minister, could you wrap up, please.

The MINISTER OF CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Well, I think you are saying that am enjoying myself, Chairperson. [Interjections.]

I think what the hon member Shiceka said about community corrections is correct. These are the kinds of options we are looking at, and we are also looking at those blockages and identifying them, with the Minister for Justice and Constitutional Development and the Minister of Safety and Security. The Minister of Defence was also promising us some of the buildings that they used before, which are, in a way, ready to accommodate some people, but need changes here and there. It is question of planning and logistics to see how we can do it. [Applause.]

The MINISTER OF DEFENCE: Chairperson, in the limited time we have, I will not deal with all the issues. I will select some that really require attention.

First of all, let me just say that I have a rejoinder to what my colleague Charles Nqakula has just said about the particular issue of the noise that has been heard around the country on the ``Kill the boer, kill the farmer’’ slogan. This House constitutes part of the leadership of the nation and it is important that this House should speak with one voice on this issue. There can be no excuse for this House to prevaricate on a question like that, when we require to unite the people of our country. Of course it has got to be a properly constituted motion. The House must speak as one. [Interjections.] No, members should not tease each other on an issue that requires the House to be united. [Interjections.]

The issues that I would really like to address are those that die agb Theron opgetel het [the hon Theron picked up]. On the question of the budget for Defence, no one should be clearer on this issue than members of Parliament. When this democratic Government came into being, this nation was spending more than 9% of its total expenditure on defence. Since then we have brought it down to 6% of the nation’s total expenditure, which means that 94% of the nation’s total expenditure goes to other issues.

Let us take it the other way round. On average around the world, in peacetime, nations spend on average 2% of their GDP on defence. Since this democratic Government came into being, we have brought expenditure down to less than 2% of GDP, as I stand here, including the strategic defence package. We are spending 1,7% of our GDP on defence, which means 98,3% of our nation’s GDP goes into other expenditure. From reading the newspapers of this country, one might believe that we are spending 64% of the GDP on defence. [Laughter.] I can assure hon members of that.

That is what happens. People say that we must not compare the past and we must move away from apartheid. The fact of the matter is: We cannot understand the present and the future without history. Even when one is ill and goes to the doctor, the doctor asks: Where do you come from? Where did you grow up? Did your parents have this illness? There is no way he is going to understand how to deal with you without asking. History is crucial. What we are dealing with in politics is also that.

The second thing I would like to deal with, also raised by the hon Theron, is the issue of Burundi. It is a total fallacy to say that South Africa is funding the mission out there. That mission is not a classic UN mission. It is endorsed by the Security Council, which means that the UN has said to the nations of the world that, although the conditions ordinarily required under the Charter of the UN have not been entirely fulfilled, nevertheless we endorse this action being taken by those African nations that are satisfied that they can make a contribution. The UN went on to say that it encouraged formations to support this. The EU pledged huge contributions of money - I cannot provide the figures off the cuff. Belgium, over and above what it contributes to the EU, also pledged a further amount directly from its own budget.

The Netherlands contributed 40 million guilders. The United Kingdom and United States have pledged money. The United Nations itself is working out its contribution, even though this is not its classical mission. Only last week, Denmark pledged money to this. All we have done is to ask National Treasury to advance the requisite money so that we do not have to wait for the pledges and can do the work. When that money comes, it will be recovered from that. We will only know at some future point whether the money contributed by the international community is less than what is required. But I am quite satisfied with the work that the former President, Mr Mandela, is doing. There will not be any shortage on that. That is why the Deputy President was right in assuring both the National Assembly and this House on this question.

But South Africans must also move away from the question of complaining about contributing R1 million to peace support missions. Mali, for example, is a very small nation and it is poor. It could not even host the Africa Cup of Nations without our support. We had to have Kombis and other things sent there to assist them. But when it comes to supporting peace missions, they have five full batallions set aside for nothing else but peace support operations. South Africa complains about one batallion to Burundi when there is another battalion in reserve here. We cannot do that.

We have to remember the role that the international community played in supporting our struggle for democracy in this country. Nations gave us money directly, and some of them contributed with the lives of their own citizens. South Africa must keep that in mind, otherwise we would be making a serious mistake.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Hon Minister, could you wrap up, please?

The MINISTER OF DEFENCE: I just want to add that we are not going to do a defence review. A defence review is not something that one undertakes every week. It is done once for a long period of time to come. It is not going to happen now. But we need defence, not only because we are likely to go to war. We have 3 000 km of coastline along which we have marine resources - fish and so on. We have to police it, and we cannot do that with a spear and knobkerrie. [Laughter.] [Applause.] We need to have ships, helicopters, corvettes and so on. Those cost money. Without those marine resources, there would be no food or work for South Africans. There would not even be areas of research.

Finally, let me just say that people do not understand that the drug syndicates, the criminal syndicates that are there today, command budgets bigger than this nation’s. For instance, we cannot compare ourselves with Al-Qaeda. Some of these traffickers that are bringing drugs here from Colombia have ships, ocean liners and submarines which are fast and modern. We have to stop them. The Minister of Safety and Security and the Minister for Justice and Constitutional Development can bear me out. We are catching these guys and we cannot say how many are passing by. They have advanced equipment. If we are to deal with them, we have to be a country, even in peacetime, capable of looking after itself. There is 3 000 km of coastline that we have to look after, and I am not talking about movement from the north.

I am sorry that time is limited, but with the things I have to say to this House, I could speak until nine o’clock. [Laughter.] I must thank the House for all the support we have had. [Applause.]

The MINISTER FOR JUSTICE AND CONSTITUTIONAL DEVELOPMENT: Chairperson, I personally have no doubt that we have had a very good debate collectively on the Budget Votes of our cluster. As a cluster, we want to commend the members of this House for this good debate.

It is unavoidable, however, that I should make a few comments with regard to a few observations made by hon members. The first one relates to the observation by Kgoshi Mokoena that there are divergent views or forms of construction regarding sentences, etc, in our courts. I would like to tell Kgoshi Mokoena that this is unavoidable. In our system there are seats of the High Court in so many places. Judges will come to all sorts of conclusions. But, fortunately in our system once again, we have higher courts so that these positions will be distilled, either in the course of the work of the Supreme Court of Appeal or in that of the court that sits at the pinnacle of the system, that is, the Constitutional Court, where our Chief Justice is located. So we should not be alarmed by the existence of divergent views in respect of a whole range of matters.

The second question that Kgoshi Mokoena raised related to delays, with the SAPS blaming the national prosecuting authority and those together blaming the rest of the criminal justice system. Kgoshi Mokoena will be glad to note that precisely because we are operating in a totally new way, by which we have pulled down the walls of the silos that existed in this system and have set up what we call the integrated justice court centres, we all have ample opportunity not only to interact and look at the factors that lead to these delays but also to address those factors. The situation is improving tremendously. We might find, occasionally, one or two officers who lay the blame for these delays at the door of someone else, but the tendency now is to accept that the delays are multifaceted and have many causes and that they are our responsibility as this cluster. That is our approach to them. The hon Piet Matthee is right in saying that there are all sorts of perceptions about us as an unsafe country as well as a country with high rates of corruption. But it is interesting to note that when people look at the crime scene in the world objectively, they come to totally different conclusions. Indeed, one may be tempted to agree with the hon Matthee that we might want to go to people who have the resources and ask: What more do we have to do?

The truth is that South Africa stands in a very interesting position in the world context. In one sense we are a developing country, and yet in another sense, and a very important one, we are a rival to many developed countries in many areas. And it suits some of them to want to portray that old image of us being unable to resolve these problems, but I do want to believe that honest people in the world, including ordinary people, will acknowledge that South Africa is doing the right thing and addressing her problems. That is why hon members here have been able to say that it is recognised that things are changing.

I want to believe that, for instance, we are safer than the Middle East. I am not expecting anybody, as I go out now to have my whiskey and whatever else at the next place, to walk in and blow himself up and therefore kill all of us there. I am not expecting anybody to raid us. There is no Jenin situation around here right now. Nobody is building a wall to shield us from them right now. It is not happening in the Republic of South Africa, and that is a reality. That is thanks to the total and absolute commitment of all our people to doing the right thing.

The hon Lever quite correctly observes that the Justice budget is insufficient. I said to the National Assembly that a professional assessment puts us at the point where we would require at least an additional R2 billion to be able to do what has to be done. Again, what we all have to acknowledge is that there is a large body of legitimate competing demands out there. As departments we have to accept that we have to make do with the resources that the people of the RSA have placed at our disposal.

We may feel quite aggrieved about the paucity of resources, but I want to say that all the things that hon members have acknowledged are being done, are being done notwithstanding the paucity of resources. We must thank the people who manage the system - the commissioners, directors-general, etc - because they have the toughest of jobs, to stretch these resources out so much and yet achieve the bit that we are achieving as a country.

The hon member asks: What is the point, in the face of all these problems, of enacting legislation when we cannot implement it? I disagree with the hon member. The pieces of legislation that he has mentioned in particular are examples of what this country needs if we are to transform the situation. We cannot wait until we have an avalanche of resources before we pass those laws. We will pass them and look for resources within the constraints of the budget and do our work.

A very exciting example is that the maintenance system has not collapsed because we could not not appoint investigators hitherto. But I have said here that we have set money aside that will enable us to make a beginning as far as the implementation of that part of the law is concerned. So there are many laws that we are implementing notwithstanding the paucity of resources.

This country does need to proceed along the road of transformation, notwithstanding our resources. We cannot say to our people that we will postpone certain aspects of sorely required transformation because we do not have resources. They will not listen to that. They want change and the assurance that change is taking place, resources notwithstanding. We will use whatever we have at our disposal to achieve these basic objectives that we have set ourselves as the people of the RSA.

The issue of corruption in correctional services has been mentioned. Unlike the Minister, I am actually going to state it much more strongly and say that we are the ones who are exposing these things. I do not know whether hon members noted that these prisoners did not have their own video machine. The video machine was actually sourced from somewhere because we wanted to do a test and establish what is happening. There was co-operation by some of the officers in the system in order for us to be able to do that.

If hon members do not know, a video machine is not a small machine, so one would need the collaboration of quite a number of people to be able to place it where it was in order for us to get to know what was really happening. I want to say to this House that having done all that and having discovered a lot of rot in the system, our hands are not tied. We are acting against these anima … I mean, these elements. I nearly said ``animals’’. I have too many animals which are well-behaved to compare them to these elements. But honestly, this is our work. It is not as though somebody at SABC3 did this. They did not do it, we gave the video to them. It is our video. It comes from us. That must be borne in mind. This is our work and it is part of ongoing work.

There is work we are doing now, together with the Minister, alongside the work of the Jali commission to deal with these problems. We are not going to wait, fold our arms or, for that matter, lie on our backs on some sandy beach and say we will wait for Jali to tell us what we know is happening so that we can address it. As this cluster of Ministers, and as this cluster of directors-general and officials, we are addressing those problems.

This country, as I have said in the past, is served by some of the noblest and finest of people who are asking for nothing more than just a little word of gratitude from me and this House. [Applause.]

Debate concluded. PRIVATE SECURITY INDUSTRY LEVIES BILL

            (Consideration of Bill and of Report thereon)

Ms J L KGOALI: Chairperson, I want to say thank you very much, on behalf of this committee, for work that has been well done, and the manner in which hon members have conducted themselves this afternoon. I want to table my report and just say, on behalf of the committee, that we support the Bill. [Applause.]

Debate concluded.

Declaration of vote:

Mr J L THERON: Chairperson, when our Constitution demands equality before the law and speaks out against any form of discrimination, these are not meaningless, lightly spoken, by-the-way remarks. In the Bill there are three criteria determined for the levies. We have a problem with the third criterion, which refers to the monthly gross income of the security service provider.

Ms J L KGOALI: Chairperson, on a point of order: I thought that the hon member was going to say that his party was not in support of the Bill, but not that he was going to give a speech, because I was the only person who was to give a speech.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Hon member, are you making a declaration?

Mr J L THERON: I am definitely making a declaration, Chairperson, and I am motivating why we are saying this.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Please continue.

Mr J L THERON: Thank you, Chairperson. We regard the criterion of gross income as the determinant of a levy as very unfair, and we debated it at very great length in the meetings where we had the opportunity. Various providers, depending on their location and the type of service provided, will have different overheads and expenses. There are sound reasons why our whole taxation system - and this levy is nothing but a tax - is based on taxable income, thus profit, after deductions. I do not think I need to elaborate on the unfair consequences of using gross income as a criterion. Therefore we oppose this Bill. [Interjections.]

Bill agreed to in accordance with section 75 of the Constitution (Democratic Party dissenting).

The Council adjourned at 19:53. ____

            ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS

ANNOUNCEMENTS:

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces:

1. The Speaker and the Chairperson:

 (1)    Assent by the President  of  the  Republic  in  respect  of  the
     following Bills:


     (a)     Basic Conditions of Employment  Amendment  Bill  [B  70D  -
              2001] - Act No 11 of  2002  (assented  to  and  signed  by
              President on 18 June 2002);
     (b)     Labour Relations Amendment Bill [B 77D - 2001] - Act No  12
              of 2002 (assented to and signed by President  on  18  June
              2002); and


     (c)     Media Development and Diversity Agency Bill [B 2B  -  2002]
              - Act No 14 of 2002 (assented to and signed  by  President
              on 18 June 2002).

National Council of Provinces:

1. The Chairperson:

 (1)    Bill passed by National Council of Provinces on 19 June 2002: To
     be submitted to President of the Republic for assent:


     (i)     Private  Security  Industry  Levies  Bill  [B  11  -  2002]
          (National Assembly - sec 77).


 (2)    Message from National Assembly to National Council of Provinces:


     Bill passed by National Assembly on 19 June  2002  and  transmitted
     for concurrence:


     (i)     Financial Advisory and Intermediary Services Bill [B 52B  -
          2001] (National Assembly - sec 75).


     The Bill has been referred to the Select Committee  on  Finance  of
     the National Council of Provinces.

TABLINGS:

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces:

Papers:

1. The Minister of Environmental Affairs and Tourism:

 (1)    Stockholm Convention on Persistant Organic Pollutants, tabled in
     terms of section 231(2) of the Constitution, 1996.

COMMITTEE REPORTS:

National Council of Provinces:

1. Report of the Select Committee on Labour and Public Enterprises on the Electronic Communications and Transactions Bill [B 8B - 2002] (National Assembly - sec 75), dated 18 June 2002:

   The Select Committee on Labour and Public Enterprises, having considered the subject of the Electronic Communications and Transactions Bill [B 8B - 2002] (National Assembly - sec 75), referred to it, reports that it has agreed to the Bill.

2. Report of the Select Committee on Security and Constitutional Affairs on the Private Security Industry Levies Bill [B 11 - 2002] (National Assembly - sec 77), dated 19 June 2002:

   The Select Committee on Security and Constitutional Affairs, having considered the subject of the Private Security Industry Levies Bill [B 11 - 2002] (National Assembly - sec 77), referred to it, reports that it has agreed to the Bill.