National Assembly - 20 June 2002
THURSDAY, 20 JUNE 2002 __
PROCEEDINGS OF THE NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
____
The House met at 14:00.
The Chairperson of Committees took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayers or meditation.
ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS - see col 000.
NOTICES OF MOTION
Mrs B M NTULI: Chairperson, I shall move on behalf of the ANC:
That the House -
(1) notes that -
(a) etv screened matches of the World Cup in Korea/Japan in which
Bafana Bafana participated;
(b) etv has also screened the one day international matches between
Australia and South Africa; and
(c) in doing so, etv has made these national and international
events available to the people of South Africa, especially the
historically disadvantaged communities; and
(2) wishes to congratulate etv for making these historic sports activities accessible to the majority of our people.
[Applause.]
Mr M J ELLIS: Mr Chairman, I hereby give notice on behalf of the DP that I shall move:
That the House - (1) notes that the New NP had 1 713 town and city councillors after the first local government elections in 1995-96;
(2) notes further that in the year 2000 the New NP nominated 597 out of the 1 370 DA councillors; and
(3) now looks forward to learning how many of those 597 councillors the New NP can persuade to rejoin them.
Ms I MARS: Chairperson, I shall move on behalf of the IFP:
That the House -
(1) expresses its appreciation of the recently published draft report of the committee of inquiry into a comprehensive system of social security for South Africa;
(2) acknowledges the extensive work done by Professor Vivian Taylor, her committee and members of Parliament;
(3) accepts that there is evidence of sufficient fiscal capacity for improved social sector spending;
(4) asks for speedy action to ease the plight of many thousands of South Africans still in dire need of support; and
(5) suggests that the implementation of a basic income grant be considered now.
Mong L J MODISENYANE: Ke tla sisinya lebitsong la ANC:
Ho re -
(1) Ntlo e lemohe ketso ya bokgabane e entsweng ke motjha wa mane Bethlehem wa Freistata, e leng ho pholosa bophelo ba leseyanyana le ileng la lahlelwa ke mmalona ka hara mokoti o nkgang wa ntlwana;
(2) Ke boele ke sisinye hore Ntlo e sole ketso eo ya bosoto e nyatsang polelo e reng: Mmangwana o tshwara thipa ka bohaleng;
(3) Ntlo e boele e thoholetse lepolesa le bontshitseng lerato le fetang la mmangwana;
(4) Ntlo e re: Phela ha lelele Mong Willem van Niekerk! Ba tshwanang le wena ba a hlokeha tshebetsong ya sepolesa;
(5) Ntlo e boele e re ho mmangwana: Tshwela mathe o tshware mokgobu! (Translation of Sotho notice of motion follows.)
[Mr L J MODISENYANE: Chairman, I shall move on behalf of the ANC at the next sitting of the House:
That the House -
(1) notes the good deed performed by a young man from Bethlehem, Free State, in saving the life of a newly born baby that had been thrown into a stinking toilet pit by its mother;
(2) condemns this cruel deed that belies the saying: It is the mother who holds the sharp end of the knife;
(3) commends the police officer who displayed a love that surpassed that of the mother;
(4) says: Long live Mr Willem van Niekerk! People like you are sorely needed in the Police Service; and
(5) says to the mother: Shame on you!]
Mr J DURAND: Chairperson, I hereby give notice that I shall move on behalf of the New NP:
That the House -
(1) notes the results of the latest Markinor and Markdata opinion polls, which clearly indicate that -
(a) the New NP's support is growing at a sharp upward curve, while
the DA's support is currently half of what it was 18 months ago
in the local government elections; and
(b) the New NP's core power base has been consolidated, and the
party is in fact stronger than before the DA's formation, with
remarkable growth potential;
(2) also notes that Markinor’s poll was done two months ago, therefore the impact of the Morkel/Harksen scandal and the DA’s and the hon Leon’s clumsy handling thereof has not even been taken into account; and
(3) believes this serves as confirmation that voters are tired of the DP/DA’s approach of criticising for the sake of criticising and are opting for the New NP’s more constructive approach.
[Applause.]
Prof L M MBADI: Chairperson, I will move on behalf of the UDM at the next sitting of this House:
That the House -
(1) notes the unfolding rescue efforts by the SA Agulhas, in an attempt to rescue the 107 people aboard the Magdalena Oldendorff, which has been trapped in the ice of Antarctica;
(2) further notes the assistance to be rendered by the Argentinian icebreaker, which has set sail from Buenos Aires; and
(3) expresses its best wishes to the crews of both the rescue ships in their rescue operations, and awaits their safe return.
Dr I M CACHALIA: Mr Chairperson, I shall move on behalf of the ANC:
That the House -
(1) notes that the President of the Republic of South Africa said, ``no one has the right to call for the killing of farmers or boers, nor the right to threaten violence to advance their goals’’ in his budget speech on Wednesday;
(2) further notes that the President said that he was proud that many farmers were lending a hand to create a better life for all, and by being ``proudly African’’;
(3) believes that the statements made by President Thabo Mbeki reflect the commitment of the ANC-led Government to build national unity and protect the rights of all South African citizens; and
(4) welcomes the statements made by the President during his Budget Vote speech on Wednesday, 19 June 2002.
[Applause.]
Dr P W A MULDER: Mnr die Voorsitter, hiermee gee ek kennis dat ek namens die VF by die volgende sitting van die Huis sal voorstel:
Dat die Huis -
(1) daarvan kennis neem dat -
(a) die VF president Mbeki se onvoorwaardelike veroordeling van die
gebruik van die slagspreuk ``Kill the boer, kill the farmer'' by
twee onlangse byeenkomste, waardeur hy duidelike leiding aan sy
ondersteuners en alle Suid-Afrikaners gegee het, verwelkom;
(b) beide voorvalle deur die VF in 'n baie ernstige lig beskou word
aangesien dit na ons mening 'n oortreding van artikel 16(2)(c)
van die Grondwet van Suid-Afrika, wat oor haatspraak handel, is;
en
(c) die VF Dinsdag 'n amptelike klag by die Menseregtekommissie oor
die haatspraak-slagspreuk ``Kill the boer, kill the farmer''
ingedien het; en
(2) sy hoop uitspreek dat die Menseregtekommissie president Mbeki se voorbeeld sal volg, en sal bevind dat hierdie slagspreuk inderdaad haatspraak is. (Translation of Afrikaans notice of motion follows.)
[Dr P W A MULDER: Mr Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the ANC:
That the House -
(1) notes that -
(a) the Freedom Front welcomes President Mbeki's unconditional
condemnation of the use of the slogan ``Kill the Boer, kill the
farmer'' at two recent (ANC) gatherings, through which he gave
clear leadership to his supporters and all South Africans;
(b) both incidents are viewed in a very serious light by the FF, as
they constitute a violation of section 16(2)(c) of the
Constitution of South Africa; and
(c) on Tuesday the FF laid an official complaint with the Human
Rights Commission about the hate speech slogan ``Kill the Boer,
kill the farmer'' which was recently chanted at two ANC
gatherings; and
(2) expresses the hope that the Human Rights Commission will follow President Mbeki’s example and will find that this slogan is indeed hate speech.]
Miss S RAJBALLY: Chairperson, I shall move on behalf of the MF:
That the House -
(1) notes that -
(a) water is a basic right, not a privilege;
(b) it is a known fact that a human being can survive without food,
but cannot survive without water for more than a few days;
(c) it is also known that the earth is made up of 75% water;
(d) inflation and the high cost of living make day-to-day living
hard and almost impossible for the majority of our population
that is poverty-stricken; and
(e) taxes and tariffs need to be paid;
(2) recognises that increasing water tariffs at impossible rates is unacceptable;
(3) wonders whether we are trying to kill our people by making water almost not accessible; and
(4) resolves that unicity water tariffs receive urgent consideration in view of the well-being of our people.
Mev M P COETZEE-KASPER: Mnr die Voorsitter, hiermee gee ek kennis dat ek namens die ANC by die volgende sitting van die Huis sal voorstel:
Dat die Huis -
(1) met dankbaarheid kennis neem van ‘n 36,3%-afname in plaasaanvalle in die Vrystaat vanaf 2001-02;
(2) met waardering kennis neem dat dit toegeskryf kan word aan die verbeterde en nouer samewerking tussen die SAPD en die kommandos wat die plattelandse veiligheidsplan opgestel het;
(3) ook daarvan kennis neem dat die noue samewerking tussen plaaseienaars en plaaswerkers ‘n onontbeerlike deel is van hierdie sukses; en
(4) hoop waaksaamheid en stappe om die euwel van plaasaanvalle uit te roei, nooit verslap sal word nie. (Translation of Afrikaans notice of motion follows.)
[Mrs M P COETZEE-KASPER: Mr Chairperson, I hereby give notice that at the next sitting of the House I shall move on behalf of the ANC:
That the House -
(1) notes with gratitude a 36,3% reduction in farm attacks in the Free State from 2001-2002;
(2) notes with appreciation that this can be attributed to the improved and close co-operation between the SAPS and the commandos which set up the rural safety plan;
(3) also notes that the close co-operation between farm owners and farmworkers is an indispensable part of this success; and
(4) hopes that vigilance and steps to eradicate the evil of farm attacks will never be relaxed.]
Mr N J CLELLAND-STOKES: Chairperson, I shall move at the next sitting of this House:
That the House -
(1) notes that in a by-election in Graaff-Reinet, an ANC stronghold, yesterday the DA increased its support from 14% in 2000 to 26% and that this included an increase in the largely coloured voting district from 38% to 59%, and that the support in the black voting district nearly doubled;
(2) also notes that -
(a) for the New NP to claim victory in Kimberley because the
election was won by the ANC is utterly laughable, while the New
NP is yet to contest a by-election, and thus test the support
for their disastrous co-operation with the ANC, the DA has
contested 21 by-elections since the New NP leadership withdrew
from DA; and
(b) by latching on to one by-election in which they were too afraid
even to put up a candidate, the New NP is revealing its utter
desperation; and
(3) calls on the New NP to have the courage to test their support with the people by contesting a by-election against the DA.
[Applause.]
Dr R RABINOWITZ: Chairperson, I give notice that at the next sitting I shall move as follows:
That the House -
(1) notes -
(a) the continued difficulty provinces are having filling medical
posts in rural areas;
(b) the Department of Health's arbitrary and restrictive approach
towards registering foreign qualified doctors; and
(c) the department's preference for government to government
agreement with Cuban doctors or South African doctors trained in
Cuba; and
(2) calls on the Minister of Health to adopt -
(a) an incentive-driven programme for medical students; and
(b) a more inclusive approach to qualified doctors from other
countries, so that enthusiastic doctors from Ireland, Britain,
Europe, the USA, Eastern and Middle Eastern countries and
African countries are encouraged to work in our rural areas.
Mr H P CHAUKE: Chairperson, I give notice that on the next sitting day I shall move on behalf of the ANC:
That the House -
(1) notes that President Thabo Mbeki said that more than 80 000 South Africans volunteered to eradicate poverty by assisting the elderly to secure their social grants, in the budget speech of the Presidency last Tuesday;
(2) believes that the overwhelming response by our people to the President’s call for Vukuzenzele reflects their commitment to build a better life for all and to work to unite the nation; and
(3) congratulates all those citizens that volunteered to assist citizens eligible for social grants to register.
[Applause.]
Dr S J GOUS: Mr Chair, I give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move:
That the House -
(1) notes the controversy surrounding the two health MECs for Mpumalanga and the Eastern Cape; (2) also notes that -
(a) Dr Thys von Mollendorff was fired last year by the health MEC
for Mpumalanga for allowing Grip to operate in one of the rooms
in the Rob Ferreira Hospital;
(b) he lost the appeal against his dismissal because he was never
informed about the date of the hearing and thus was never given
a chance to defend himself;
(c) Dr Frederick Rank was fired by the health MEC for the Eastern
Cape for speaking to the media about the dire state of health
services in the Nelson Mandela Metropole; and
(d) other doctors and the previous health MEC have come out in his
support; and
(3) welcomes President Mbeki’s statement that he intends addressing problems of maladministration and incompetence in provincial governments and calls on him to start with the health departments of Mpumalanga and the Eastern Cape.
[Applause.]
Dr G W KOORNHOF: Mr Chairperson, I give notice that on the next sitting day I shall move on behalf of the UDM:
That the House -
(1) notes that -
(a) according to the Banking Council low income earners who owe
money and apply to court for administration orders often end up
in a position where they are unable to ever pay back their
debts;
(b) it is especially low income earners that have been granted
considerable amounts in credit extensions over the past five
years; and
(c) in many instances the administrators act in contravention of the
Magistrates Courts Act by charging more than the allowed 12,5%
and often paying creditors less than the agreed amount; and
(3) calls on the Minister of Safety and Security to urgently investigate the contraventions of the Magistrates’ Courts Act, to protect the poor and promote economic upliftment in South Africa.
WORLD REFUGEE DAY
(Draft Resolution)
The CHIEF WHIP OF MAJORITY PARTY: Chairperson, I move without notice:
That the House -
(1) notes that today, 20 June 2002, is World Refugee Day;
(2) recognises that 2002 marks the 51st anniversary of the adoption of the 1951 United Nations Convention Relating to the Status of Refugees, which together with its 1967 Protocol are the most broadly accepted foundation instruments of the international protection regime;
(3) notes with alarm the expanding number of refugees around the world and their terrible plight; and
(4) affirms its continued commitment to addressing the plight of refugees.
[Applause.]
Agreed to.
TAXATION LAWS AMENDMENT BILL
(Introduction)
The MINISTER OF FINANCE: Chairperson, the Taxation Laws Amendment Bill deals primarily with the incorporation into legislation of the tax proposals announced on Budget day this year. The Bill proposes amendments to a variety of taxation laws, personal income tax, interest and dividend exemption, learnership allowances, stimulatory measures for business including small business corporations and accelerated depreciation for manufacturing assets.
The Bill also introduces changes which limit the deductions of employees and deals with other relief including transfer duty, estate duty and donations tax, transactions taxes and changes to various exemption thresholds. This Bill also introduces significant changes in respect of the taxation of public benefit organisations.
The Bill has been discussed quite extensively in the Portfolio Committee on Finance and I have pleasure in tabling the Taxation Laws Amendment Bill of
- [Applause.]
Bill, together with the introductory speech, referred for consideration and report to the Portfolio Committee on Finance.
APPROPRIATION BILL
(Decision of Question on Votes and Schedule)
The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! Hon members, the noise levels are rather high. Since we are doing important business, could we please cut down on the number of private conversations.
Before we commence, I wish to thank parties for advising the staff on which Votes they will be making declarations and on which Votes they will be recording their objections, as well as those they will be dividing on. This information will greatly assist the process this afternoon.
I will put each Vote and ask parties for declarations of vote as they have indicated. After this, I will put the Vote for decision. The bells will be rung for three minutes for the first division on a Vote but for only 15 seconds on subsequent divisions.
Vote No 1 - The Presidency - put.
Declarations of vote:
The LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION: Mr Chairman, I would have called for a division on this Vote if it were not for the fact … [Interjections.] The Minister for Intelligence says it does not matter. She is no democrat, that is for sure. I would have called for a division if it were not for the fact that I hear it is the birthday of the Minister in the Presidency tomorrow, and obviously one must have some regard for the fact that there are two birthdays in the Presidency this week.
But that does not lessen one’s objection to the Presidency in the sense that more and more power has been accumulated in this Presidency than at any time in the immediate past history of South Africa, and for little very purpose.
It is all very well for the President to occasionally bypass or pass through Parliament, make a few remarks and ignore a significant slice of the debate. This is one thing and it is not democratic. But another thing is to ignore the people of South Africa, to ignore the sick of South Africa, South Africans dying of Aids, two million South Africans in the unemployment queues, South Africans who are not sure where their next meal is coming from and South Africans who are refused a basic income grant. Those are the people that the Presidency ignores in South Africa. The day of reckoning is coming to this country and it will not be between the opposition and the Government but between the people of South Africa and the Government of South Africa. [Interjections.]
The ANC can put as much power as it likes into the Presidency and pass as much anti-investment legislation as it wishes to pass, such as the latest minerals Bill, which is being railroaded through a parliamentary committee as we speak. That Bill is a red light for investors in this country. But at the end of the day, they must go to the people and explain why it is that millions of South Africans are needlessly dying in this country of HIV/Aids, while, if we had had a better approach towards labour and investment, millions of South Africans could have had jobs. [Interjections.]
The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Hon member, your time has expired.
The LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION: Those are the questions that must be answered. [Time expired.] [Applause.]
Mr G C OOSTHUIZEN: Mnr die Voorsitter, ek wil, in die woorde van Langenhoven vir die agb Leon sê: Al verdien ‘n man dit nie, eer hom na sy posisie. Dit is al genoeg dat hy die posisie oneer aandoen. As ‘n mens na die agb Leon luister, dan wil hy nie ernstig wees oor nasiebou en versoening in die land nie. [Mr Chairman, in the words of Langenhoven, I want to say to the hon Leon: Even if a man does not deserve it, honour him according to his position. It is sufficient that he is dishonouring the position.When one listens to the hon Leon, he does not want to be serious about nation-building and reconciliation in the country.]
They cannot be taken seriously if they oppose the efforts of the Presidency in this country to get the economically marginalised onto the playing field, thereby creating a better life for all. Despite his continuous stream of protest, we in the ANC will continue to push back the frontiers of poverty in our country and continent. [Applause.]
How patriotic is he if he opposes the President when he says that the Leader of the Opposition and I are as much Africans as he is one? The DA leadership’s self-inflicted paranoia has isolated them from their supporters. May I say that their supporters want to be on the train. They do not want to be left on the platform while the train is departing for a better and brighter future. [Applause.]
The time for introspection for the DA has come. If they want to be part of the solutions in this country, then they will earn the respect of the President. They cannot demand respect. Respect is earned, not inherited. We support this Budget Vote. [Applause.]
Vote agreed to (Democratic Party and Federal Alliance dissenting).
Decision of Question interrupted.
CROSSING-THE-FLOOR LEGISLATION
(Announcement)
The SPEAKER: Order! Hon members, I apologise for interrupting the debate. We will resume immediately. But there is a brief announcement that I do need to make to the House as soon as possible so that members do not have to read about it in the media.
I have to announce that the President of the Republic has assented to the four Bills dealing with crossing the floor. The Acts are to appear in a special Gazette published today. The 15-day window period, during which members may cross the floor without losing their seats and during which parties may merge or subdivide, therefore commences at 00:01 tonight. [Applause.]
It looks as if I did not have to apologise for interrupting, but let me proceed. The 15-day period runs from 21 June to midnight on 5 July. Any member or party wishing to make any change during this window period should complete a special form which is being prepared for this purpose and will be available in about an hour’s time to all parties. Please note that parties are asking for more than 400 copies of the form. You will get 400 if you want them. There are no other members of the House.
The form, which will be the only valid form, will be made available to all members. Members and parties should note that for purposes of informing the Speaker of any intended changes, they should submit the completed forms to any one of the following designated parliamentary officials: the Secretary to the National Assembly, Mr Hahndiek, and the Undersecretary to the National Assembly, Dr Ismail. The form will include covering notes containing details which members and parties will need to comply with in order for the change to be valid.
When the window period expires, the Speaker will, in terms of the legislation, publish details of the altered composition of the National Assembly. The form does contain the details again including times when you may deposit them, and you will be required to deposit forms personally. [Interjections.] Well, starting from midnight.
Having advised you of that information, I can now allow you to continue with whatever I interrupted. [Interjections.]
APPROPRIATION BILL
(Resumption of Decision of Question on Votes and Schedule)
Vote No 2 - Parliament - put.
Declarations of vote:
Adv Z L MADASA: Madam Speaker, we support the Budget Vote of the Speaker, but I would like to say the following. We echo the sentiments which the Speaker expressed during her address in the debate, namely that the time allocated to the minority parties is not sufficient for a meaningful debate to ensue in the House.
The practice of allocating time for debates according to the current proportional system is flawed. This practice undermines the role of parliamentary oversight as the members of the ruling party are unlikely to raise critical issues against their own, in view of the principles of loyalty and discipline.
We would also note that the international practice, for example in Sweden, is to allocate more time to the opposition in order to give effect to the principle of parliamentary oversight. [Interjections.] Time allocation should be decided by a neutral arbiter, for example the presiding officers. It should not be allowed to be a political issue.
This practice runs contrary to the constitutional principles of representativity and inclusivity. [Applause.]
Mrs S A SEATON: Mr Chairperson, the IFP will not be opposing this Vote. However, we do believe that the time has come for sufficient funds to be injected into the parliamentary budget. The time has come when Parliament should be empowered to deal with the matters at hand. Until that happens, we are not going to get any further.
We believe that things have not been the way they should be, that the administration is not up to scratch and that the only way that we are ever going to get to where we need to be in this Parliament is to see to it that sufficient funds are injected into the parliamentary budget.
It is insufficient to accept that we have just had an individual annual increase based on the previous year’s budget. The time has come to do something dramatic and bring about the right kind of change and the transformation that is needed in this Parliament.
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Chairperson, we want to echo some of the sentiments expressed by the hon member from the IFP. Indeed, this Budget Vote has to be supported, particularly because we do need to endeavour to make it work by increasing capacity at the level of committees and of all the other operational aspects of Parliament. The ANC supports this Budget Vote. [Applause.]
Vote agreed to.
Vote No 3 - Foreign Affairs - put.
Declarations of vote:
Mr C W EGLIN: Mr Chairman, the DP will support this Budget Vote. We were impressed by the commitment of the personnel, who, under great pressure, carried out their duties. However, there are matters for concern. Morale is not as good as it should be. The capacity of the department is being stretched beyond its limits. The budget has not been increased in line with South Africa’s growing international responsibilities.
There is lack of effective corporate management. Changes in the top management positions have been too frequent. Too many senior management positions are held on acting basis. There is uncertainty on the structure of the department and of its relationship with the Presidency. It is clear that the Cabinet must undertake an in-depth study of the scope of the department, its structure, its essential budget and its functional relationship with the Presidency.
In this coming year new demands will be imposed on the Government and this department. As the chair of the AU, South Africa will have to play a key role in launching Nepad, in converting Nepad from a plan on paper to concrete action and in developing Nepad from a good intention into an effective instrument of delivery. Nepad will be assisted in attaining these objectives by a positive response from the developed nations. However, Nepad’s success will depend on, more than anything else, the extent to which African governments fulfil their commitments to democracy, sound economic policies and good government, embracing human rights and respect for the rule of law.
Because of this, we in the DP say to our Government there can be no compromise on these fundamental Nepad values. There can be no back- pedalling because of past favours, no softening because of a search for some spurious solidarity. We say to the Government that we expect them to stand firm in the defence and promotion of these core principles which lie at the heart of Nepad. We say to Government that when it does so, it will certainly have the support of the DP and of the enlarged Democratic Alliance which will emerge tomorrow. [Applause.]
Adv Z L MADASA: Chairperson, the ACDP supports this budget but would like to highlight the following things. Firstly, I must echo what the last speaker said with regard to the department, that there needs to be a filling of vacancies which are still unfilled in that department.
With regard to Nepad, I am happy to have heard what the President said during his debate in the Presidency, namely that a budget has been allocated to support Nepad. This is what we want to see, but even more important is the involvement of civil society. We need to put in place concrete measures to involve civil society in the Nepad programme. Otherwise, we support the Budget Vote.
Dr Z P JORDAN: Mr Chairperson, since 1994, South Africa has won a respected place in the international community, as is evidenced by the number of international conferences we have hosted since that time, beginning with the Nonaligned Movement conference and followed by the World Conference Against Racism and this year the founding conference of the AU and also the World Summit on Sustainable Development. This is all due to the sterling efforts of our Department of Foreign Affairs, led very ably by our Minister of Foreign Affairs and the Deputy Minister.
Notwithstanding the many problems that exist in that department, which include a rather parsimonious budget, in our view, we think this is a department that has acquitted itself well. Therefore we very strongly support this Vote. [Applause.]
Vote agreed to.
Vote No 4 - Home Affairs - put.
Declarations of vote:
Prince N E ZULU: Chairperson, in supporting the Home Affairs Budget Vote one has to note that underfunding in this department over the years has failed it in projecting itself as the underbelly and face of the country to its citizens and foreigners alike.
This year’s budget increase has also not been an increase to write home about, as it still fails to fill the vacant posts that have been there for a long period of time, thus failing the department as it sets out to render the world-class service enshrined in its mission statement. It is an increase to keep the department going despite the stress and strain on those in service demanding more and more of their sweat and tears. It is a budget increase that offers no hope but more questions than answers.
The present version of the Immigration Act is another futile exercise in an attempt to improve the lives of Home Affairs customers. As long as the Immigration Act fails to attract the greatest number of skilled foreigners, it will have failed its mission, and urgent amendments will be necessary in order to bring it to its original form. Again, if it fails to curb the alarming brain drain to Europe and elsewhere, that will be disastrous for South Africa’s economy in the not distant future.
Mr S N SWART: Mr Chairman, the ACDP will support this Budget Vote, notwithstanding our great concern at the fact that the department is to receive R300 million less than requested and that the nearly R120 million underfunding cited has been identified as ``critical to service delivery’’. We have identified that the major problem, which the department has also identified, continues to be an insufficient budgetary allocation for personnel.
The department has to date been functioning with a fixed establishment, approved by the office of the Public Service Commission during 1995, which comprises 6 982 posts. Of this establishment only 6 200 are filled and, since the rationalisation of the Public Service in 1994, the demand for services has increased dramatically. This has resulted in a tremendous challenge for the department to utilise as far as possible all available resources.
The shoddy manner in which the hon the Minister of Home Affairs was treated during the Immigration Bill proceedings cannot be overlooked by this House. It is indisputable that this Parliament owes him an apology. How was it possible that we allowed a Bill to be tabled which was profoundly different from the Government’s policies and the terms of the debate on immigration control during the past seven years? How is it possible that a revised version of the Bill was only informally presented to the Minister 48 hours prior to his debate on the Bill? In his words at the time he said:
Up until 48 hours ago, our Government maintained and declared to the world a policy based on tenets which have now been subverted.
Notwithstanding this, the ACDP will support this Budget Vote.
Mr M I SCOTT: Chairperson, the ANC believes that it is important to continue to contribute towards the best world-class service to our people, and the Department of Home Affairs has an important role to play in this regard. We accept that it is going to be a process to actively deal with challenges facing the department. Those challenges are the implementation of the Hanis project, the population register, the rolling out of infrastructure in order to make Home Affairs accessible, the computerisation of offices, managed migration, corruption and the new electoral system. I think it is important that we should also intensify the registration and the ID campaign, particularly in the rural areas, so that we can make the services of the Government accessible.
We should also note that some of the comments that have come from some of the parties are really misplaced. I agree with the Minister of Home Affairs when he said in the Budget Debate last week and also at the dinner party on the same day that the Immigration Act was quite an improved product. I do not know what those other members are talking about when they speak as if it is something that was misplaced. It is true that there are technical problems related to that Bill, but those are issues that we have all committed ourselves to addressing within a period of two to three months. I do not think that they defeat the purpose of the Bill itself. It was an improved product and we will continue to improve it. We are also mindful of the fact that the issues of immigration are contentious issues. Even in the European Union, where they have established systems, it is still a big problem. That is why on the 21st and 22nd of this month they are going to be looking at these issues, and here in this country we will continue to address them. The ANC supports this Home Affairs Budget Vote. [Applause.]
Vote agreed to.
Vote No 5 - Provincial and Local Government - put.
Declaration of vote:
Mrs R M SOUTHGATE: Mr Chairperson, the imminent crossing-the floor legislation will only serve to further exacerbate the financial difficulties experienced by the municipalities. Currently, local government debt is already estimated at R22 billion. Whilst we should be focusing on improving service delivery and reducing our debt, we are preoccupied with passing legislation which is nothing but opportunistic and set on taking control.
National Government must take responsibility for the potential increase in tension in local government given the recent spate of attacks on councillors from different parties as a result of party allegiance and affiliation.
The ANC and New NP argue that the new legislation will stabilise local government, and the ACDP says no, we are of the opinion that it will do the opposite and further retard effective and efficient service delivery. Our communities are currently deeply divided and despondent and feel betrayed by politicians. It is our view that the implementation of the crossing-the- floor legislation is not conducive to bringing together our communities and restoring confidence in Government.
We are convinced that this legislation was considered for the purpose of political expedience and with indecent haste without taking into account the financial implications it will have for local government councils, given the restructuring that will have to take place, especially in the Western Cape, where there is a strong possibility that the current executive system will be replaced by the executive mayoral system, which is clearly not the wish of the voters.
The only way to resolve this once and for all is to test the voters in the Western Cape, and we call for fresh elections. The ACDP does not support this Vote.
Mnr P J GROENEWALD: Voorsitter, as ons kyk na plaaslike regering, dan het die VF het die VF geen ander keuse as om te sê dat hy nie hierdie begrotingspos gaan steun nie. Die uitstaande skulde aan dienstegelde in hierdie stadium is meer as R23 miljard. Dit is meer as die totale verdedigingsbegroting van Suid-Afrika. Ek wil vir die agb Minister van Finansies sê hy moet met sy kollega daar langs hom gaan praat, en dan sal hy beter prioriteite kan bepaal om sy sentrale fondse anders aan te wend.
Daar is nie behoorlike finansiële bestuur by plaaslike regering nie. Solank daar nie behoorlike finansiële bestuur is nie, solank die ANC in gebreke bly om die kultuur van betaling weer te begin skep - hulle het die kultuur geskep om nie te betaal nie - kan die VF nie hierdie begrotingspos steun nie. [Tussenwerpsels.] (Translation of Afrikaans speech follows.)
[Mr P J GROENEWALD: Chairperson, if we look at local government, then the FF has no choice but to say that it would not be supporting this Vote. The outstanding debts in service charges at this stage amount to more than R23 billion. That is more than the total Defence budget of South Africa. I want to say to the hon the Minister of Finance that he should go and talk to his colleague next to him, for then he will be able to determine better priorities to utilise his central funds in another way.
There is no proper financial management in local government. For as long as there is no proper financial management, for as long as the ANC fails to start recreating the culture of payment - they created the culture of non- payment - the FF cannot support this Vote. [Interjections.]]
Mr Y I CARRIM: Chairperson, there is a 34,8% increase in the budget allocated to the department, an 18,3% increase to local government over the MTEF period, a 71% increase in funds for municipal infrastructure, a strategic plan increasingly aligned to the budget and providing a framework for the restructuring of the department, and, what is more, a commitment to linking the department’s programmes to the broader goals of Government on economic growth, job creation and redistribution.
In general terms, what more can one reasonably ask for in the circumstances? True, there are problems; how could there not be? But to oppose the budget is unfathomable and unpardonable. It is mere opposition for opposition’s sake and, frankly, very, very boring. If Mr Groenewald had bothered to come to a single meeting this year, or in fact, ever since he came to this Parliament, he would know that the budget addresses precisely some of the issues he points out as his reasons for having difficulties with municipalities. He does not know, needless to say, that there are a whole number of grants directed to ensuring that municipalities manage their finances better. Of course, he does not know either, since he does not come to any meeting, that the Local Government: Municipal Finance Management Bill, currently before this Parliament, seeks to address that. [Interjections.] I cannot work out either, mind you, what the relevance is of what Rhoda Southgate has to say to a Budget Vote debate.
But I shall say that, in fact, in this past year some 55% of our people - note, 55% - have been receiving free basic water services. [Applause.] There are some 10 pilot projects already under way to provide, as difficult as it is, free basic electricity. [Applause.] The Minister also declared, only a week or two ago, that the major issue of traditional leadership and institutions was going to be dealt with very shortly. In fact, he has invited traditional leaders and other stakeholders to take part in the White Paper process that is pending.
Might I also mention that the ISRDP, the Integrated Sustainable Rural Development Programme - Mr Groenewald will not know that - and the Urban Renewal Programme - he will not know that either, needless to say - have had over 120 projects launched worth R3,7 billion this past year and there are a further 122 projects.
The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Hon member, your time has expired.
Mr Y I CARRIM: I wish I had half a minute more to convince him, but I will leave it at that. [Applause.]
Vote agreed to (African Christian Democratic Party, Democratic Party and Freedom Front dissenting).
Vote No 6 - Public Works - put.
Declarations of vote: Adv Z L MADASA: Chairperson, we support the budget of the department. However, I would like to declare one issue. Fortunately, the Minister addressed it this week when she said, with regard to the problems of lease, that a plan had been put in place to ensure that only senior authorised officials could enter into leases. We were happy to hear that, because I would like to highlight to the Minister that there are instances, especially at provincial level, where various departments are leasing premises, for example, in shopping centres, whereas nearby there are empty government buildings. I would like the Minister to address that issue. Probably she has addressed it, but I would like to highlight it in this declaration. Otherwise, we support her budget.
Mr M M CHIKANE: Chairperson, the ANC will support this Budget Vote. We know that Public Works was the face of the RDP of our people under Minister Radebe, and we are happy to see him here. It continues to be the source of empowerment to the majority of our people who were excluded from resources. We know that when we speak about empowerment, we actually mean the construction and development of new assets in both urban and rural areas.
We also believe that this department has continuously carried the responsibility for making a difference, especially in areas where resources were deliberately not made available by apartheid. We renew hospitals, we build clinics where they did not exist and we provide infrastructure where none ever existed. As the ANC we support this Budget Vote. [Applause.]
Vote agreed to.
Vote No 7 - Government Communication and Information System - put.
Vote agreed to (Democratic Party and Federal Alliance dissenting).
Vote No 8 - National Treasury - agreed to.
Vote No 9 - Public Enterprises - put. Declarations of vote:
Mr R J HEINE: Chairperson, although we are moving in the right direction as far as the restructuring of the state-owned enterprises is concerned, the process is too slow and there are too many outstanding issues. Let me name a few. Firstly, the most important is the transgression of the principles of corporate governance, for example the SAA’s Macozoma mess. It keeps haunting us - the latest revelation is about Coleman Andrews’s house - and yet Mr Macozoma still owes the taxpayer some explanation about his unacceptable and irresponsible behaviour. The matter about Mr Jakavula’s improper housing deal, although he was suspended, is still unresolved.
Let me turn to Alexkor. It has been managed by two companies over the past three years, and yet there is no finalisation regarding management fees owed to the previous management company, although their contract expired at the end of May 2001. From June 2001 to 31 May 2002, Mintek took over the management and their contract has also expired. Who at this stage is managing Alexkor, and when will some announcement be made?
The listing of the Airports Company of South Africa, Acsa, has been postponed several times, and there is still no certainty when this will happen. Although it is such an obvious choice, there is now a rumour going around that between the Minister of Public Enterprises and the Minister of Transport there is disagreement about whether it should be listed or not.
The list is long, but suffice it to say that because of these outstanding issues and many more, the DA cannot support the Budget Vote.
Dr W A ODENDAAL: Chairperson, private enterprise is outperforming public enterprise in delivering quality transport services to South Africans. The taxi industry has, through better and cheaper private services, already lured away millions of Metrorail’s daily commuters. Long-distance bus companies have, through better and cheaper private services, already lured away most of Spoornet’s passengers. Long-haul trucking companies have, through better and cheaper private services, already taken over the bulk of Spoornet’s freight business, leaving South Africa’s roads in a mess.
There is only one way to turn the tide back from road to rail: Allow private enterprise to deliver a quality rail service, while injecting the necessary capital to address the backlog in the maintenance of the system. We are not preaching the holus-bolus privatisation of Transnet, but only that of its operational part. No government can allow itself to be held ransom by labour unions that prioritise the feathering of their own nests above the needs of the poor or the interests of South Africans.
The New NP does not wish to demand; we simply support the Government in its policies to render better services and stimulate growth by unleashing the power of private enterprise and individual entrepreneurship. We believe in the President’s vision that the rebirth of Africa shall be achieved by the excellence of its own children.
Notwithstanding our reservations, the New NP will support this Budget Vote.
Mrs C DUDLEY: Chairperson, the ACDP will support this Budget Vote, but with reservations, as Government is perceived by serious commentators and observers of the South African economy to be dragging its feet on the issue of privatisation. Apart from major areas such as transport, including harbours and ports, which should be privatised, in almost every Government department there are things that Government should not be doing. Certain elements like catering, for example, should be privatised.
More than 90% of the world’s trade passes through ports, and inefficiencies inhibit economic growth. The experience in the UK, with outright privatisation of ports, shows that capital investment grew by 50% in a decade, turnover and tonnage of cargo grew more than 20% each, labour fell by 40% and profitability grew by 220%. Of course, new jobs are created where the economy thrives. UK ports are now reported to be among the most efficient in Europe. The public sector cannot create wealth, but can and must provide the conditions in which wealth can be created by the private sector - this being the private sector’s primary purpose.
Aspects of Eskom - such as delivery, and not generation - Transnet, Telkom and Denel have the potential to make a large contribution to the country’s wellbeing through privatisation which would enhance efficiency and improve customer service. [Applause.]
Dr S E M PHEKO: Mr Chairman, the PAC, as indicated earlier, thinks that the budget allocated to Public Enterprises is quite adequate and supports it. Our concern is that the policy of privatisation or restructuring requires many public institutions to be jettisoned and replaced with minority economic domination. This policy means that the path of development with equity is abandoned and emancipatory democracy takes a back seat. This exposes the poor to ruthless economic exploitation and servitude. It enriches the rich and makes the poor poorer. It creates a massive loss of jobs.
We think that the privatisation of state assets at the expense of the poor and the dispossessed is an IMF plot to further deepen the expropriation of African wealth from Africans. It is an attempt at the recolonisation of the continent. [Applause.]
Mr B A D MARTINS: Chairperson, the Department of Public Works engages a number of challenges very dynamically in the interests of the country. I therefore support the Budget Vote.
Vote agreed to (Democratic Party and Federal Alliance dissenting).
Vote No 10 - Public Service and Administration - agreed to.
Vote No 11 - Public Service Commission - agreed to.
Vote No 12 - South African Management Development Institute - agreed to. Vote No 13 - Statistics South Africa - agreed to.
Vote No 14 - Arts, Culture, Science and Technology - put.
Declarations of vote:
Dr P W A MULDER: Mnr die Voorsitter, hierdie Minister is in ‘n posisie om die Grondwet se standpunt oor veeltaligheid ‘n werklikheid te maak. Die VF steun hom in enige poging om dit moontlik te maak. Ons is wel bekommerd oor verskillende aspekte, byvoorbeeld die Pansat, wat al verder agter raak met sy werksaamhede en waar die uitsprake wat wel die afgelope ruk gemaak is, deur staatsdepartement geïgnoreer word.
Ons is ook bekommerd oor taalwetgewing wat tans vasgehaak het. Die Minister was eerlik genoeg om tydens die begrotingspos vir ons te sê dit het by die Departement van Onderwys vasgehaak. Daar sal baie meer rustigheid oor taalsake kom, as hierdie wetgewing bevredigend opgestel en aanvaar word.
Ons steun die Minister in sy pogings om byvoorbeeld veeltaligheid te bevorder. Waar daar reeds rekenaarwoordeboeke in Afrikaans en Engels bestaan, wil ons hom gelukwens met die ontwikkeling van rekenaarwoordeboeke ook in van die ander amptelike tale van Suid-Afrika. Dit help om agterstande uit te wis en help om die tale op gelyke vlak te bring en ook weer waardigheid vir almal terug te bring. Die VF sal wel hierdie begrotingspos ondersteun. (Translation of Afrikaans declaration of vote follows.)
[Dr P W A MULDER: Mr Chairperson, this Minister is in a position to make the viewpoint of the Constitution regarding multilingualism a reality. The FF supports him in any effort to make this possible. We are, however, concerned about different aspects, for example Pansalb, who are lagging further and further behind with its work and where the announcements, which were in fact made a while ago, are being ignored by state departments.
We are also concerned about language legislation which has currently come to a standstill. The Minister was honest enough to tell us during the Budget Vote that it has come to a standstill at the Department of Education. Much tranquillity regarding language matters will come to pass if this legislation is compiled in a satisfactory way and accepted.
We support the Minister in his effort to, for example, promote multilingualism. Where computer dictionaries already exist in Afrikaans and English we would like to congratulate him with the development of computer dictionaries in some of the other official languages of South Africa. This helps to eliminate backlogs and helps to bring the languages on equal levels as well as to restore the dignity of everyone. The FF will support this Budget Vote.]
Miss S RAJBALLY: Mr Chairperson, the MF supports this Vote and has certain comments. The progress that we have made through this department is impressive. We have South African entertainment, museums and exhibitions. The promotion of the department’s programme is pursued and this is remarkable.
In relation to improvements and advancements in science it is noted that the MF supports the department in pursuing science as a credible subject. We have advanced so far that we have had the first South African in space. The MF supports this Vote.
Mrs M A A NJOBE: Mr Chairperson, the ANC supports this budget. We note in particular the increase in the budget for PanSALB, which deals with languages and whose activities will increase 16,4% from last year to 26,1% this year. This is in line with the Government’s policy to promote multilingualism in this country.
We also observe a notable increase in science and technology, which will consume about 96% of the budget in the medium term. This is also in line with the Government’s policy to encourage skills development in science and technology. Therefore we support this Budget Vote.
Vote agreed to.
Vote No 15 - Education - put.
Declarations of vote:
Mr R S NTULI: Mr Chairperson, the common desire to afford the best possible education for our children remains elusive, despite the tireless efforts and zeal of the hon the Minister of Education. We recognise the improvement made by the department and the sound policy frameworks. However, the infrastructure scenario remains bleak. The effects of underspending on infrastructural development that historically disadvantaged learners suffer are schools without water and electricity and with poor security. This creates very unfavourable conditions for learning.
Furthermore, many schools, as recently as 2 June, were still experiencing a critical textbook shortage, especially in the Eastern Cape. Corruption and financial mismanagement are still common occurrences in some provinces, again notably the Eastern Cape. There is no coherent programme for teacher development and evaluation or for capacity development in school management.
Finally, curriculum uncertainty for the current group of Standard 9 pupils tells a sad story. The lack of a new curriculum for learners in Grade 10 poses a problem next year, because these children have been exposed to Curriculum 2005 for three years. If they revert to the old syllabus, they will definitely experience problems. There is no articulation between the old and the new syllabuses. The department has not done its homework properly, despite the fact that they have known since 1997 that this is coming. The DP opposes the Vote. [Interjections.]
Mr A M MPONTSHANE: Chairperson, breaking the back of illiteracy in five years was the undertaking made by the Minister of Education a year ago. Two years later, we see only scratches on the back of illiteracy. Of major concern to us is the underspending in some conditional grants. The Thuba Makote rural school building project, for example, where the department expects to spend only R1,5 million of the allocated R48 million, causes concern, as does the phasing out of specific conditional grants to provinces at the end of the MTEF. For instance, the Ikhwelo Abet grant is being phased out. We would like to know from the department how it is going to fill this budgetary void.
Another concern is what happens at the district level of the education system. There is no legislation governing the provisioning of education at this level. At worst, we have managers who have got no authority at all. The recent example of inspectors not being allowed to carry out what was national policy leaves us very concerned indeed. Let us do something to restore authority and accountability at that level. The IFP supports this Budget Vote.
Dr B L GELDENHUYS: Chairperson … The MINISTER OF EDUCATION: Boy, behave yourself!
Dr B L GELDENHUYS: I will behave, but unfortunately I cannot support the Minister’s Budget Vote for the following reasons, and we are forced to oppose it. With reference to the institutional character of universities, the Minister said on 27 February in this House (Questions and Replies of the National Assembly, col 76):
I am very sensitive to this fact that there should be some kind of institutional life associated with the culture, tradition and the history.
Unfortunately, the announced plan for the restructuring of higher education does not underpin the sentiments of the hon the Minister. Furthermore, the Minister said that the findings of the Council on Higher Education and the Gerwel report will make sure that no Afrikaans-medium institution is penalised in the national plan for higher education.
Not only was the content of these reports not released as promised by the Minister, but Afrikaans-medium institutions were indeed penalised. They are forced to introduce double-medium and parallel-medium teaching without extra financial back-up from the state, while this is not expected of English-medium institutions.
Finally, the Minister said that part of the programme for restructuring was that some of the institutions would be encouraged to start developing indigenous languages and lead into teaching in those indigenous languages. But none of this emanated from the plan on higher education.
As gevolg van die totale afwesigheid van ‘n taalplan wat veeltaligheid bevorder aan hoër opvoedkundige inrigtings, kan ons ongelukkig nie hierdie onderwysbegrotingspos steun nie. Andersins doen die Minister uitstekende werk. [Owing to the total absence of a language plan promoting multilingualism at higher education institutions, we unfortunately cannot support this education Vote. Otherwise the Minister is doing excellent work.]
Mrs C DUDLEY: Chairperson, the ACDP is unable to support the Education budget, primarily for the following reasons. Large amounts of public funds will be placed in the hand of PPASA, or the Planned Parenthood Association of South Africa, to implement life-skills, HIV/Aids and sexuality education in schools, and we are concerned that the Education Laws Amendment Bill will further undermine school governing bodies.
PPASA won the tender for sex education in schools. They are proudly antifamily and proabortion, licentious sex and deviant lifestyles such as homosexuality. The founder of Planned Parenthood was motivated by her belief that the marriage bed is the most denigrating influence of society and that birth control and abortion would eliminate what she called the weeds of the world and the genetically inferior races. Of course, she started her abortion clinics in the black and Hispanic areas in the United States. Now Africa, and especially South Africa, has opened its arms to this wicked agenda.
Life Skills and HIV/Aids Education: a Manual and Resource Guide for
Intermediate Phase School Teachers by PPASA says Grade 4 pupils, or 10-year-
olds, are to be taught by the teacher about sexual intercourse and that it
is essential for children, by at least Grade 6, or 12 years old, to have a
clear understanding of the exact mechanics of how to give a female an
orgasm, including how a female or male can give a woman oral sex or manual
stimulation. PPASA tells teachers that learners need to understand that
their feelings about homosexuals are based on irrational prejudice rather
than fact. Worksheets ask children if it feels OK to caress to orgasm or
have intercourse with an acquaintance, a good friend of the same sex, a
good friend of the other sex or a date. No mention is made of husband''
orwife’’, but, of course, marriage is a dirty word for PPASA.
There are many other profamily organisations that have excellent HIV/Aids, life, love and sex education curricula available right now, like No Apologies by Focus on the Family. These should replace PPASA. The ACDP does not support this Budget Vote.
Dr P W A MULDER: Mnr die Voorsitter, ek gaan nie ‘n geen 4-18-toespraak lewer nie. Ek gaan oor iets anders praat. Die VF is bekommerd oor verskillende aspekte van onderwys in Suid-Afrika. Ons het ons bekommernisse tydens die onderwysdebat uitgespreek en aan die Minister duidelik gestel. Ek het slegs tyd vir een voorbeeld.
In die Weskaap is daar drie universiteite. Die Wes-Kaapse bevolking is 60% Afrikaanssprekend. Dit regverdig tog sekerlik dat twee van hierdie universiteite Afrikaans behoort te wees - sou ons dan werklik veeltaligheid bevorder. Tans is twee van die universiteite Engels. Stellenbosch is reeds dubbelmedium en daar is druk om al hoe meer Afrikaans af te skaal. Dit maak nie vir ons sin nie. Ons verstaan dit nie.
Ons het waardering dat Minister Asmal verlede Maandag ‘n VF-dinkskrum bygewoon het, waar hy sy standpunte gestel het. Ek dink nie daar is baie Ministers wat so in die leeu se kuil sal inloop nie - Piet Retief het dit laas gedoen, so ver ek weet. Ons het tog waardering daarvoor dat hy dit gedoen het en sy saak by ons kom stel het. Dit het heelwat misverstande opgeklaar. Daar is wel nog onsekerheid oor sekere sake en sodra daar sekerheid kom, kan ons ons standpunt wysig. Daar is nog onsekerheid oor die Gerwelverslag, die rol van beheerrade en dies meer. Ons het waardering vir sy gesprek met ons, maar ons gaan teen die begrotingspos stem. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)
[Dr P W A MULDER: Mr Chairman, I am not going to deliver a no-4-18 speech. I am going to talk about something else. The FF is concerned about various aspects of education in South Africa. During the education debate we expressed our concerns and clearly explained them to the Minister. I only have time for one example.
There are three universities in the Western Cape. Sixty percent of the Western Cape’s population is Afrikaans-speaking. That probably justifies that two of these universities should be Afrikaans - if we are to truly promote multilingualism. Currently two of the universities are English. Stellenbosh is already double-medium and the pressure is on to scale down Afrikaans even more. This does not make sense to us. We do not understand it.
We have appreciation for the fact that Minister Asmal attended an FF think- tank last Monday, where he expressed his points of view. I do not think there are many Ministers who would walk into the lion’s den like that - Piet Retief was the last person to do that, as far as I know. We nevertheless have appreciation for his having done that and that he stated his case before us. It cleared up many misunderstandings. There is still, however, uncertainty regarding certain matters and as soon as there is certainty we can amend our position. There is still uncertainty regarding the Gerwel report, the role of the control boards and so forth. We have appreciation for his discussion with us, but we are going to oppose the Budget Vote.]
Prof S M MAYATULA: Chairperson, how I wish all the members could be in a position to attend our portfolio committee meetings, where some of these issues are debated and discussed. I think it would have been good to call in Love Life, so that we could read more and understand more than the excerpts we get from different papers. Unfortunately, some of the members are unable to do that. Even when they refer to infrastructure, some people are misguided and their views misplaced.
The President was talking in this very Chamber and said that no student should be allowed to learn under a tree. There is a document that was tabled before the committee where the Government committed itself that during the next MTEF all provincial departments must come with all their plans, so that money can be put aside in order to change those things. When we talk about Thuba Makote and Ikhwelo, again these are long-term projects. People say the money has not been used. The money has been committed and that is why we are talking about a three-year system, so that we put the money aside to address these issues.
Regarding the issue of language, I do not know for how long we are going to be addressing this issue. At no stage is this Government saying that a language, whatever language, should be undermined. All the Government is saying is that we must do whatever we can in order not to use language to prevent others from coming in, as was the case in many instances.
Regarding the Education Laws Amendment Bill, the Bill is going to come before the committee and we are going to have public hearings and everybody can come there and ask why it is what it is. Some people unfortunately take it out of its context, because that Bill is not meant to be what members are saying it should be. [Time expired.]
Division demanded.
Mr M J ELLIS: Chairperson, are we permitted to know what happened to the hon the Minister of Education’s voting system? Did he vote against his Budget Vote, perhaps? [Laughter.]
The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: I think the hon the Minister’s mechanism was not working.
The House divided:
AYES - 242: Abram, S; Ainslie, A R; Asmal, A K; Balfour, B M N; Baloyi, M R; Baloyi, O S B; Bekker, H J; Benjamin, J; Bhengu, F; Blanché, J P I; Bloem, D V; Booi, M S; Botha, N G W; Buthelezi, M G; Buthelezi, M N; Cachalia, I M; Carrim, Y I; Chalmers, J; Chauke, H P; Chiba, L; Chikane, M M; Chiwayo, L L; Chohan-Kota, F I; Cindi, N V; Coetzee-Kasper, M P; Cronin, J P; Cwele, S C; Davies, R H; De Lange, J H; Diale, L N; Didiza, A T; Dithebe, S L; Ditshetelo, P H K; Dlali, D M; Douglas, B M; Duma, N M; Dyani, M M Z; Erwin, A; Fankomo, F C; Fazzie, M H; Ferreira, E T; Fihla, N B; Fraser-Moleketi, G J; Frolick, C T; Gandhi, E; Gcina, C I; George, M E; Gerber, P A; Gillwald, C E; Gomomo, P J; Goniwe, M T; Goosen, A D; Gumede, D M; Hajaig, F; Hanekom, D A; Hendrickse, P A C; Hlaneki, C J M; Hlengwa, M W; Hogan, B A; Jassat, E E; Jeffery, J H; Joemat, R R; Jordan, Z P; Kalako, M U; Kannemeyer, B W; Kasienyane, O R; Kasrils, R; Kati, J Z; Kekana, N N; Kgarimetsa, J J; Kgauwe, Q J; Kgwele, L M; Komphela, B M; Koornhof, G W; Kota, Z A; Kotwal, Z; Lamani, N E; Landers, L T; Lekgoro, M K; Lekota, M G P; Lishiva, T E; Lobe, M C; Lockey, D; Louw, J T; Louw, S K; Lucas, E J; Lyle, A G; Mabe, L; Mabena, D C; Madlala-Routledge, N C; Magashule, E S; Magazi, M N; Magubane, N E; Magwanishe, G; Mahlangu, M J; Mahlawe, N; Mahomed, F; Maimane, D S; Maine, M S; Makanda, W G; Makasi, X C; Malebana, H F; Maloney, L; Malumise, M M; Manuel, T A; Maphalala, M A; Mapisa-Nqakula, N N; Martins, B A D; Masala, M M; Maserumule, F T; Mashimbye, J N; Masithela, N H; Masutha, M T; Mathibela, N F; Matsepe-Casaburri, I F; Maunye, M M; Mayatula, S M; Mbadi, L M; Mbete, B; Mbombo, N D; Mdladlana, M M S; Mfundisi, I S; Mguni, B A; Middleton, N S; Mkono, D G; Mlangeni, A; Mnandi, P N; Mnumzana, S K; Modise, T R; Modisenyane, L J; Moeketse, K M; Mofokeng, T R; Mohamed, I J; Mohlala, R J B; Mokoena, D A; Molebatsi, M A; Molewa, B G; Moloi, J; Moloto, K A; Mongwaketse, S J; Montsitsi, S D; Moonsamy, K; Moosa, M V; Moropa, R M; Morutoa, M R; Morwamoche, K W; Moss, M I; Mothoagae, P K; Mpahlwa, M; Mpaka, H M; Mpontshane, A M; Mthembi-Mahanyele, S D; Mthembu, B; Mtsweni, N S; Mufamadi, F S; Mutsila, I; Mzizi, M A; Mzondeki, M J G; Nair, B; Nash, J H; Ncinane, I Z; Ndlovu, V B; Ndzanga, R A; Nel, A C; Nene, N M; Newhoudt-Druchen, W S; Ngaleka, N E; Ngcengwane, N D; Ngculu, L V J; Ngubane, H; Ngubeni, J M; Nhleko, N P; Nhlengethwa, D G; Njobe, M A A; Nkabinde, N C; Nobunga, B J; Nqakula, C; Nqodi, S B; Ntombela, S H; Ntshulana-Bhengu, N R; Ntuli, B M; Ntuli, S B; Nzimande, L P M; Olifant, D A A; Oosthuizen, G C; Pahad, A G H; Pahad, E G; Phadagi, M G; Pheko, S E M; Phohlela, S; Pieterse, R D; Rabinowitz, R; Radebe, J T; Rajbally, S; Ramakaba-Lesiea, M M; Ramgobin, M; Ramotsamai, C M P; Rasmeni, S M; Reid, L R R; Ripinga, S S; Roopnarain, U; Saloojee, E; Schneeman, G D; Schoeman, E A; Scott, M I; Seaton, S A; Sekgobela, P S; September, C C; September, R K; Shilubana, T P; Shope, N R; Sigcau, S N; Sigcawu, A N; Sigwela, E M; Sikakane, M R; Sisulu, L N; Sithole, D J; Skhosana, W M; Skosana, M B; Skweyiya, Z S T; Slabbert, J H; Smith, V G; Solo, B M; Sonjica, B P; Sosibo, J E; Sotyu, M M; Tinto, B; Tolo, L J; Tshabalala-Msimang, M E; Tsheole, N M; Twala, N M; Vadi, I; Van den Heever, R P Z; Van der Merwe, S C; Van Wyk, A (Annelizé); Van Wyk, J F; Van Wyk, N; Vos, S C; Xingwana, L M T; Zita, L; Zondo, R P; Zulu, N E.
NOES - 63: Andrew, K M; Bakker, D M; Bell, B G; Beukman, F; Blaas, A; Blanché, J P I; Borman, G M; Botha, A J; Bruce, N S; Camerer, S M; Clelland-Stokes, N J; Cupido, P W; Da Camara, M L; Delport, J T; Dowry, J J; Dudley, C; Durand, J; Ellis, M J; Farrow, S B; Geldenhuys, B L; Gous, S J; Green, L M; Greyling, C H F; Grobler, G A J; Groenewald, P J; Heine, R J; Jankielsohn, R; Kalyan, S V; Kasrils, R; Le Roux, J W; Lowe, C M; Madasa, Z L; Maluleke, D K; Meshoe, K R J; Moorcroft, E K; Morkel, C M; Mulder, C P; Mulder, P W A; Nel, A H; Ntuli, R S; Odendaal, W A; Olckers, M E; Opperman, S E; Pillay, S; Pretorius, I J; Rabie, P J; Redcliffe, C R; Schalkwyk, P J; Schippers, J; Schmidt, H C; Selfe, J; Semple, J A; Simmons, S; Smuts, M; Sono, B N; Southgate, R M; Swart, P S; Swart, S N; Taljaard, R; Van der Merwe, A S; Van Deventer, F J; Van Jaarsveld, A Z A; Waters, M.
Vote accordingly agreed to.
Vote No 16 - Health - put.
Declarations of vote:
The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: I call on the hon member Mrs Kalyan to address the House. [Interjections.] Order, hon members! Hon members, order! Please take your seat, hon Kalyan. Order! Hon members, I am addressing you. There has been a request from the Presiding Officers that we refrain from the catcalls that are being made. [Laughter.] I think that it was made in a serious light. It is a ruling of the Chair and I now appeal to hon members to abide by it. Let us afford the hon member an opportunity to speak. Hon member, please proceed. [Interjections.]
Mrs S V KALYAN: Thank you, Chair. While there has been a welcome increase in the Health budget, the reality is that the Department of Health has failed in its goal of providing better health for all. On Tuesday we heard the Minister of Health state that she had reason to celebrate the fact that HIV prevalence amongst teenagers was lower than last year. It is a well- known fact that it takes very little to excite the hon the Minister. But I think she is rather insensitive and that she misled the House, because statistically her facts were not significant. Furthermore, she omitted to say that the report states that there is a significant increase in HIV prevalence amongst women in the 30-39 age category.
The Minister condemns at least 200 vulnerable, helpless babies a day to an HIV-positive status, because she refuses to comply with the court order to roll out nevirapine. Instead, she has forked out a sum of R2,6 million to date to defend the court case.
The Department of Health failed to put in a request for global funding timeously, and the Minister has since thrown her toys out of her cot because KwaZulu-Natal was awarded funding. If the Minister cannot do her job, she should not punish others because they are doing it for her. [Interjections.]
The Department of Health has wasted large sums of money on consultants. A sum of R605 000 was paid to one consultant to conduct a PR programme involving celebrities to help in HIV awareness, and is but one example of the mismanagement of funds in the Department of Health.
I could go on and highlight many more failures of the Department of Health, but time does not permit me. [Interjections.] The poor track record and incompetence of the Minister speak for themselves. The DA cannot support the Health Budget Vote.
Dr R RABINOWITZ: Chairperson, while the IFP supports the Health budget, we disapprove of aspects in the Constitution and health policies that resulted in R78 million of funds budgeted for NGOs’ Aids programmes and R30 million in conditional grants to provinces for Aids not being spent in the past financial year.
We strongly recommend a simplification in the distribution of authority and responsibility to local, provincial and national governments so that the choking bureaucracy is untangled and the Health department’s work is made more efficient and accountable. This would immediately lift the morale of nurses and doctors and improve our ability to cope with Aids.
We are also advocating change in Government’s focus from rights to privacy to rights to life. However, we endorse the move towards partnerships with private management teams and the increase in equitable share to the provinces.
Dr S J GOUS: Chairperson, during the Budget Vote debate on Health I highlighted some of the problems the New NP had. These problems included a serious lack of service delivery to the public at certain hospitals and, to be more specific, in the Eastern Province, Mpumalanga and the Northern Province. These problems are, however, of a provincial nature and we cannot hold the national Department of Health responsible for them.
Other critical areas identified included medicine control, the brain drain involving health workers, the misuse of compulsory community service and obvious problems with the medical schemes.
When we examine the Government’s HIV/Aids response objectively, we find that substantial funds are made available. We see massive awareness and the education campaigns; we see campaigns promoting the use of condoms, SDI programmes and the traditional healer forum; we see home-based care initiatives, counsellor training and vaccine support; we see voluntary counselling and testing programmes, substantial NGO funding surveillance and resource programmes, etc. I could go on.
In fact, we probably have the most comprehensive response to HIV/Aids in the world, and certainly the best in Africa, as confirmed by the World Health Organisation and the United Nations. And yes, of course, we differ on some elements. We all have our pet subjects and our own view on the rate at which certain elements must be implemented.
We now have a large-scale mother-to-child prevention roll-out, and there is commitment to antiretroviral use for rape survivors. Common sense dictates that antiretrovirals for Aids sufferers are inevitable; it is a question of time.
The New NP cannot allow a few missing elements or a difference in emphasis to jeopardise the HIV/Aids response. It is more critical that we all work together to eradicate poverty and HIV/Aids. We would rather be part of the solution than part of the problem. The New NP will therefore support this budget. [Applause.] Mrs C DUDLEY: Chairperson, 49% of the budget for health programmes goes to maternal, child and women’s health, and this is where termination of pregnancy is not only implemented but promoted.
To date 220 888 babies, who were created in every detail by God with a specific plan and purpose for their lives, are being and have been butchered and thrown in the trash, and Government is paying for these barbaric deeds with our tax money.
Abortion is referred to in this House as saving women’s lives, but this gross distortion of the facts cannot be backed up by statistics that are quoted. The ACDP will not condone these atrocities and, once again, has no option but to vote against the Health budget.
The war against HIV/Aids will only be won by a dramatic change in sexual behaviour, and Planned Parenthood and Love Life’s offensive material in schools and through the media, and an indiscriminate promotion of condoms, fuel the out-of-control fire. Children need to learn about self-respect and dignity, not how to have sex, lesbian oral sex, orgasm, access to abortion clinics, masturbation and gay cruising. [Interjections.]
Love Life, an off-shoot of Planned Parenthood, receives R25 million per annum, through the Health budget, to implement its own programme. Planned Parenthood’s life-skills education in schools receives an additional 14% of the Health budget and condoms make up another large percentage. Now there are one-stop shops. Paying lip service … [Interjections.]
The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! Order! Please take your seat, hon member.
The MINISTER FOR INTELLIGENCE: Chairperson, there must be something else that the hon member can talk about other than sex. [Interjections.] [Laughter.]
The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Continue, hon member. [Interjections.] Please continue.
Mrs C DUDLEY: Paying lip service to abstinence is a sham. Where is the funding for organisations that not only promote the real prevention of Aids, which is sexual abstinence before marriage and faithfulness in marriage, but believe that our children are able to achieve these goals. Now Government has put Love Life and the Kaiser Foundation in charge of its R157 million HIV/Aids budget, and all foreign donor funding as well. These organisations are notoriously anti family values and the ACDP is concerned that NGOs that promote family values will be further discriminated against. [Time expired.]
Dr C P MULDER: Mnr die Voorsitter, die VF word daagliks deur lede van die publiek oorval met klagtes rakende die situasie in Suid-Afrikaanse hospitale. Dié klagtes gaan oor die standaard van dienste wat daar gelewer word. Daar word dan telkens gesê dat die probleem finansieel van aard is.
Ons het gister in dié Huis gehoor dat daar as gevolg van geboue wat nie verhuur word nie, maar leegstaan, ‘n bedrag van ongeveer R1 miljoen per maand - R12 miljoen per jaar - verlore gaan. Daardie geld, en geld wat op baie ander plekke vermors word, sou gebruik kon word.
Die Regering se ommekeer ten opsigte van die MIV-beleid het nie veel anders as totale verwarring by die publiek bereik nie. Die skandalige wyse waarop dr Thys van Mollendorff, die voormalige superintendent van die Rob Ferreira Hospitaal in Nelspruit, ontslaan is, is ‘n bevestiging daarvan. Aangesien die Regering sy beleid verander het, behoort hulle die eerbare weg te volg deur dr Van Mollendorff weer in sy posisie aan te stel. Hy het toegesien dat antiretrovirale middels toegedien is om juis die Vigs-pandemie te voorkom. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)
[Dr C P MULDER: Mr Chairperson, the FF is inundated daily with complaints from the public with regard to the situation in South African hospitals. These complaints are about the standard of services delivered there. It is said time and again that the nature of the problem is financial. Yesterday we heard in this House that an amount of approximately R1 million per month - R12 million per annum - is lost because buildings are not rented, but stand empty. That money, as well as money wasted in many other places, could be used.
The Government’s about-face with regard to the HIV policy has not achieved much apart from utter confusion amongst the public. The scandalous way in which Dr Thys van Mollendorff, former superintendent of the Rob Ferreira Hospital in Nelspruit, was dismissed, is confirmation of this. Since the Government has changed its policy, it should do the honourable thing by reinstating Dr Van Mollendorff in his position. He ensured that antiretroviral medication was administered, precisely to prevent the Aids pandemic.]
I was listening to the hon Dr Gous this afternoon. When I heard his compelling argument about why one should vote against this department’s budget I said to myself: Well, if even the New NP is prepared to vote against the budget, then surely there must be something terribly wrong with that budget. But, in the end, to my surprise I was, unfortunately, proven wrong again. The New NP is supporting it but, I am afraid, the FF will not be able to support this Vote. We will vote against it.
Miss S RAJBALLY: Mr Chairperson, the situation with regard to health in the country is detrimental, as a healthy nation makes a better and a stronger nation. Minimal resources exist and poor conditions accumulate at the department. We stress the need to set, improve and maintain healthy people and healthy living conditions, and the need to set parameters to maintain healthy living conditions is tremendous. The MF feels that measures should be taken to promote a healthy nation at all levels of the community. The MF firmly supports Budget Vote 16.
Mr L V J NGCULU: Mr Chairperson, the ANC is unequivocal in its support for this budget. This is a budget which South Africans have hailed as a good budget. This is a budget about poverty alleviation. This is a budget to address inequalities and inequities amongst and between provinces. On the question of HIV/Aids, the ANC remains steadfast that HIV/Aids is not a political football. It is an issue about people’s health. We are sure, if one looks at our budget, that the issue of HIV/Aids and other issues have been adequately addressed in the budget. It is also important to note that on 17 April 2002 Cabinet issued a statement, and that statement closed the debate on the issue of HIV/Aids. It is therefore out of that commitment and the steadfast programmes of our Government that one sees in the statement issued later on with regard to the question of HIV prevalence that there is stabilisation. It is a fact that cannot be denied even by those who always like to draw us to problems.
As members of Parliament, ours is to respond to the clarion call: Let us lend a caring hand of hope. Let us join in partnership for a better life. Let join in partnership for better health for all. It is through partnership that all of us can win and replace despair and surrender with hope and optimism.
With regard to the termination of pregnancy and Love Life, let me only say that the termination of pregnancy is not about abortion. It is about giving women a choice, and nothing else. [Applause.] It is also important to note that the programmes of Love Life are aimed at nothing but saving life. This is a commitment of our Government, to save life at all times. That is why we should always remain saying that we should support this budget. [Applause.]
The House divided:
AYES - 252: Abram, S; Ainslie, A R; Asmal, A K; Bakker, D M; Balfour, B M N; Baloyi, M R; Baloyi, O S B; Benjamin, J; Beukman, F; Bhengu, F; Blaas, A; Bloem, D V; Booi, M S; Botha, N G W; Buthelezi, M N; Cachalia, I M; Camerer, S M; Carrim, Y I; Cassim, M F; Chalmers, J; Chauke, H P; Chiba, L; Chikane, M M; Chiwayo, L L; Chohan-Kota, F I; Cindi, N V; Coetzee- Kasper, M P; Cronin, J P; Cwele, S C; Davies, R H; De Lange, J H; Diale, L N; Didiza, A T; Dithebe, S L; Ditshetelo, P H K; Douglas, B M; Dowry, J J; Duma, N M; Durand, J; Dyani, M M Z; Erwin, A; Fankomo, F C; Fazzie, M H; Fihla, N B; Fraser-Moleketi, G J; Frolick, C T; Gandhi, E; Gcina, C I; Geldenhuys, B L; George, M E; Gerber, P A; Gillwald, C E; Gomomo, P J; Goniwe, M T; Goosen, A D; Gous, S J; Greyling, C H F; Gumede, D M; Hajaig, F; Hanekom, D A; Hendrickse, P A C; Hlaneki, C J M; Hogan, B A; Jassat, E E; Jeffery, J H; Joemat, R R; Jordan, Z P; Kalako, M U; Kannemeyer, B W; Kasienyane, O R; Kasrils, R; Kati, J Z; Kekana, N N; Kgarimetsa, J J; Kgauwe, Q J; Kgwele, L M; Komphela, B M; Koornhof, G W; Kota, Z A; Kotwal, Z; Lamani, N E; Landers, L T; Le Roux, J W; Lekgoro, M K; Lekota, M G P; Lishiva, T E; Lobe, M C; Lockey, D; Louw, J T; Louw, S K; Lucas, E J; Lyle, A G; Mabe, L; Mabena, D C; Madlala-Routledge, N C; Magashule, E S; Magazi, M N; Magubane, N E; Magwanishe, G; Mahlangu, M J; Mahlawe, N; Mahomed, F; Maimane, D S; Maine, M S; Makanda, W G; Makasi, X C; Malebana, H F; Maloney, L; Malumise, M M; Manuel, T A; Maphalala, M A; Mapisa-Nqakula, N N; Martins, B A D; Masala, M M; Maserumule, F T; Mashimbye, J N; Masithela, N H; Masutha, M T; Mathibela, N F; Matsepe- Casaburri, I F; Maunye, M M; Mayatula, S M; Mbadi, L M; Mbete, B; Mbombo, N D; Mdladlana, M M S; Mfundisi, I S; Mguni, B A; Mkono, D G; Mlangeni, A; Mnandi, P N; Mnumzana, S K; Modise, T R; Modisenyane, L J; Moeketse, K M; Mofokeng, T R; Mohamed, I J; Mohlala, R J B; Mokoena, D A; Molebatsi, M A; Molewa, B G; Moloi, J; Moloto, K A; Mongwaketse, S J; Montsitsi, S D; Moonsamy, K; Moosa, M V; Morkel, C M; Moropa, R M; Morutoa, M R; Morwamoche, K W; Moss, M I; Mothoagae, P K; Mpahlwa, M; Mpaka, H M; Mthembi-Mahanyele, S D; Mthembu, B; Mtsweni, N S; Mufamadi, F S; Mutsila, I; Mzizi, M A; Mzondeki, M J G; Nair, B; Nash, J H; Ncinane, I Z; Ndlovu, V B; Ndzanga, R A; Nel, A C; Nel, A H; Nene, N M; Newhoudt-Druchen, W S; Ngaleka, N E; Ngcengwane, N D; Ngculu, L V J; Ngubane, H; Ngubeni, J M; Nhleko, N P; Nhlengethwa, D G; Njobe, M A A; Nkabinde, N C; Nobunga, B J; Nqakula, C; Nqodi, S B; Ntombela, S H; Ntshulana-Bhengu, N R; Ntuli, B M; Ntuli, M B; Ntuli, S B; Nzimande, L P M; Olckers, M E; Olifant, D A A; Oosthuizen, G C; Pahad, A G H; Pahad, E G; Phadagi, M G; Pheko, S E M; Phohlela, S; Pieterse, R D; Pretorius, I J; Rabie, P J; Radebe, J T; Rajbally, S; Ramakaba-Lesiea, M M; Ramgobin, M; Ramotsamai, C M P; Reid, L R R; Ripinga, S S; Saloojee, E; Schneeman, G D; Schoeman, E A; Scott, M I; Seaton, S A; Seeco, M A; Sekgobela, P S; September, C C; September, R K; Shilubana, T P; Shope, N R; Sigcau, S N; Sigcawu, A N; Sigwela, E M; Sikakane, M R; Simmons, S; Sisulu, L N; Sithole, D J; Skhosana, W M; Skosana, M B; Skweyiya, Z S T; Smith, V G; Solo, B M; Sonjica, B P; Sosibo, J E; Sotyu, M M; Tinto, B; Tolo, L J; Tshabalala-Msimang, M E; Tsheole, N M; Twala, N M; Uys, P; Vadi, I; Van den Heever, R P Z; Van der Merwe, A S; Van der Merwe, S C; Van Deventer, F J; Van Jaarsveld, A Z A; Van Wyk, A (Annelize); Van Wyk, J F; Van Wyk, N; Vos, S C; Xingwana, L M T; Zondo, R P; Zulu, N E.
NOES - 40: Andrew, K M; Bell, B G; Blanché, J P I; Borman, G M; Botha, A J; Bruce, N S; Clelland-Stokes, N J; Cupido, P W; Da Camara, M L; Delport, J T; Dudley, C; Ellis, M J; Farrow, S B; Gore, V C; Green, L M; Grobler, G A J; Groenewald, P J; Heine, R J; Jankielsohn, R; Kalyan, S V; Lowe, C M; Madasa, Z L; Maluleke, D K; Meshoe, K R J; Moorcroft, E K; Mulder, C P; Ntuli, R S; Opperman, S E; Pillay, S; Schalkwyk, P J; Schmidt, H C; Selfe, J; Semple, J A; Smuts, M; Sono, B N; Southgate, R M; Swart, P S; Swart, S N; Taljaard, R; Waters, M.
Vote accordingly agreed to.
Vote No 17 - Housing - agreed to.
Vote No 18 - Social Development - put.
Declarations of vote:
Mrs S V KALYAN: Mr Chairperson, the DP welcomes the increase in this year’s budget for the child support grants and old age pensions but notes that 60% of the poor get no social assistance grants.
One of Government’s main objectives is to alleviate poverty to create a better life for all. Therefore it makes good sense to develop a comprehensive social security system to achieve this goal. The present system is hopelessly inadequate. The Taylor report calls for the introduction of a basic income grant and a national insurance scheme to address the present gaps. This report has been welcomed by many but it is unfortunate that the Department of Social Development has remained silent on the recommendations. Suffice it to say that the basic income grant was beyond its present budget. The reality is that the basic income grant [Interjections.] …
AN HON MEMBER: [Inaudible.]
Mrs S V KALYAN: … will go a long way to improve nutrition and alleviate poverty. [Interjections.] Yes, I have.
June has been declared Youth Month. But the youth in the age group of 7 to 18 years have nothing to cheer about. They receive no social support from the Government and unfortunately a large number of children in this age group have been orphaned as a direct result of the HIV/Aids pandemic. The DP appeals to the Minister to extend the child support grant to include these children and reduce their burden and calls on Government to act speedily on the Taylor recommendations. The DP supports this budget.
Prof I J MOHAMED: Mr Chairperson, this year the budget for social development includes an amount of more than R20 billion for the payment of social security grants, which represents more than 90% of the consolidated budget for social development. This compares very favourably with the kind of social security benefits paid by other developing countries. We commend the Minister for the consistent increases in this regard.
However, we would also like to appeal to the Minister about the fact that less than 10% of the consolidated budget for social development is available for developmental services. We want to urge the Minister to give serious attention to the allocations to these programmes as they are crucial in our efforts to improve the developmental capacities of our people, and more especially the children. I support the Budget Vote. [Applause.]
Vote agreed to.
Vote No 19 - Sport and Recreation South Africa - put.
Declaration of vote:
Ms N R NTSHULANA-BHENGU: Mr Chairperson and hon members, the main beneficiaries of Government resources in the past were the minority who accounted for only 20% of the country’s population. The unequal distribution of resources led to many others with backgrounds such as those of Benni McCarthy, Willie Mtolo and Makhaya Ntini not emerging and reaching their fullest potential.
We will always support a Vote which seeks to redress the imbalance of the past and use sport as a tool for development and poverty eradication. We commend our Government’s continued attempts to address transformation in sport. The Budget Vote is a step in the right direction for South African sport. We, in the ANC support the Budget Vote. [Applause.] Vote agreed to (Democratic Party, Federal Alliance and Freedom Front dissenting).
Vote No 20 - Correctional Services - put.
Declarations of vote:
Mrs P W CUPIDO: Chairperson, the DA is absolutely shocked and disgusted by the Special Assignment programme on Tuesday night.
Mr D A A OLIFANT: Mr Chairperson, on a point of order: Is the DA represented in this House? There is no such party here.
The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! Hon member at the podium, there has been a decision that you refer to your party as the DP.
Mr M J ELLIS: Mr Chairperson, may I address you on that point of order, please? [Interjections.]
The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! Proceed, Mr Ellis. Mr M J ELLIS: Mr Chairperson, the hon member at the podium is talking on behalf of the Democratic Alliance generally. [Interjections.] It is not a motion, she is not proposing a motion on behalf of a party. She is talking generally on behalf of the DA. [Interjections.]
The MINISTER OF FINANCE: Mr Chairperson, I do not know whether the legislation is already enforced. It may allow them all to cross to the DA. But, as we speak here, they represent the DP.
The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! Hon member, the party you represent in this House is the DP. Can you speak on behalf of that party.
I will not be taking any more points of order. It is a simple, straightforward matter. The DP is represented here and you are speaking on behalf of that party.
Mr K M ANDREW: Chairperson, it is not a formal motion. I can understand that, in connection with formal motions, one cannot propose a formal motion on behalf of a party that is not represented in the House. [Interjections.] But, in the same way, someone can say, ``I speak for the poor people in rural areas’’ as a general statement expressing a view without being confined to a political party. [Interjections.] One can speak on behalf of sportspeople in South Africa. [Interjections.]
The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! Hon members, we will not proceed with that debate here. We will look into the matter and report back to the House. [Interjections.] Please proceed hon member.
Mrs P W CUPIDO: Thank you, Mr Chairperson. The Democratic … [Laughter] … Party was absolutely shocked and disgusted by the content of the programme, Special Assignment, which was shown on Tuesday night. [Interjections.] The corruption and mismanagement should be vigorously dealt with by Minister Skosana.
The DP has continuously tried to get this Government to deal with corrupt officials in this department as well as the entire Public Service, as a matter of urgency. When prisoners start rooting out corruption, there is something seriously wrong in the country. The New NP and ANC Government must remember that every cent lost through fraud, corruption and mismanagement is money that is directly contributed by ordinary taxpayers and the business community of this country. In this specific case, the DP believes that many innocent and committed warders often sacrifice their lives because of the risks of their jobs and long working hours. They receive a net income of as little as R1 500 a month.
The DP cannot support this Vote and calls for a special debate. The DP also demands that the salaries of warders and middle management be revised to prevent them from considering bribes as additional income; that the whistleblowers and Director Setlai, who disclosed this shocking information, be praised and protected by the Minister; and that the juveniles who were shown on TV and who were sodomised by adult inmates, as portrayed, and other similar suspected cases be tested for HIV/Aids. Tomorrow will be the ideal opportunity for those members to show their commitment to the people and show their wisdom as politicians by crossing the floor from this side of the House to the other side and bring the ANC to 49% so that we can have a multiparty Government, and start to all govern for a better life for all. [Time expired.]
Mr J P I BLANCHÉ: Mr Chairman, on a point of order: I would like to put it to you that if you are not going to allow people to speak on behalf of the DA or FA, then I will urge you to give my party an opportunity to also raise our objections to the Votes. [Interjections.] Mr Chairman, please protect me! [Interjections.] Mr Chairman, I am asking for your protection. [Interjections.]
The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! Yes, hon member. Please continue but be brief.
Mr J P I BLANCHÉ: Mr Chairman, I have requested that you should give my party an opportunity to make declarations of vote on all those Votes that we have not supported. The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! We will ask the Table to look at that. I am informed that you have submitted your preferences and we will keep to the list. Please, check that out with the Table.
Adv P S SWART: Mr Chairman, whilst the ACDP will support this Vote, it has the following reservations. The growth of the budget allocation does not reflect the increasing number of expected prisoners. There is clearly a need for the Portfolio Committees on Justice and Constitutional Development, Safety and Security, and Correctional Services to meet in order to address issues of mutual concern, such as that of overcrowding due to awaiting-trial prisoners.
There is also an imbalance regarding personnel, since there are plans to recruit 6 000 police per year whilst there has been no planned increase for Correctional Services. We agree that this does not make sense as increased arrests will result in an increase in the number of prisoners that end up in the Correctional Services system.
We share the views expressed regarding the television coverage of corruption at Grootvlei prison. Instead the head of the prison being disciplined, he should be given a medal for exposing this evil. It is disgraceful. The sexual abuse of that juvenile is sickening. This wickedness must be rooted out and, by all accounts, it is endemic in that prison.
We welcome the steps that have been taken by the hon the Minister in ordering the suspension of the implicated warders and look forward to the report of the findings of the Jali commission of inquiry. Severe prison overcrowding and deplorable health conditions must be continually addressed. Overcrowding remains a problem and it is the root cause of health problems and the spread of diseases such as tuberculosis and HIV/Aids in certain prisons.
The way forward must be the application of restorative justice principles which are premised upon the acceptance of guilt by the offender and payment of restitution to the victim, where appropriate, or the rendering of community service in cases where there is no danger to public safety. Silence, do I hear silence?
In conclusion, the ACDP will support this Budget Vote.
Mrs S A SEATON: Chairperson, the IFP, in supporting this Budget Vote, takes cognisance of the fact that there are problems. We have heard what the other parties have said. We too were appalled at what we saw on television the other night. However, we do congratulate our Minister and support him in his decision to, in the first place, call for inquiry into the various problems; for his suspension of the warders that have been involved in this particular problem; and for the transfer of those prisoners, for their own safety’s sake, to other prisons. I would like to congratulate the Minister. He has done the right thing there and we fully support him. [Applause.]
We fully support the view that the budget is insufficient to deal with the problems that the department is faced with. There is no doubt that the department’s budget is totally insufficient to deal with the number of problems that we are expected to deal with. With the department’s decision to create far greater rehabilitation and restoration of our prisoners, we really need to put in more money. What has been said with regard to salaries in the department is, without any doubt, a major problem. Even our safety and security officers are not earning sufficient money in this country. But there is no doubt whatsoever in our minds that those who are employed under the Department of Correctional Services are grossly underpaid and there needs to be a major injection of money into this department.
Notwithstanding that, we do support the Budget Vote.
Mr J N MASHIMBYE: Chairperson, the budget allocation allows the Department of Correctional Services to make some inroads into the challenges that it faces - challenges that are enormous and countless. The decision to put rehabilitation at the centre of the department’s strategic plan for correctional services in South Africa is laudable. We are aware of the irony of sending people to prison to punish them and at the same time to rehabilitate them. We are also aware that the Department of Correctional Services cannot accomplish and meet all challenges on its own. Within the criminal justice system, consensus has to be reached by all partners in the security cluster to reform our penal system.
Budget Vote 20, as I have already stated, offers us but one step in the direction of trying to set the reform wheels in motion. It is with that in mind that I offer my support, and that of the ANC, to the Department of Correctional Services, Minister Skosana and all stakeholders within the security cluster. [Applause.]
Division demanded.
The House divided:
AYES - 267: Abram, S; Ainslie, A R; Asmal, A K; Balfour, B M N; Baloyi, M R; Baloyi, O S B; Bekker, H J; Benjamin, J; Beukman, F; Bhengu, F; Blaas, A; Bloem, D V; Booi, M S; Botha, N G W; Buthelezi, M G; Buthelezi, M N; Cachalia, I M; Camerer, S M; Carrim, Y I; Cassim, M F; Chalmers, J; Chauke, H P; Chiba, L; Chikane, M M; Chiwayo, L L; Chohan-Kota, F I; Cindi, N V; Coetzee-Kasper, M P; Cronin, J P; Cwele, S C; Davies, R H; De Lange, J H; Diale, L N; Didiza, A T; Dithebe, S L; Ditshetelo, P H K; Dlali, D M; Doidge, G Q M; Douglas, B M; Dowry, J J; Dudley, C; Duma, N M; Durand, J; Dyani, M M Z; Erwin, A; Fankomo, F C; Fazzie, M H; Fihla, N B; Fraser-Moleketi, G J; Frolick, C T; Gandhi, E; Gcina, C I; Geldenhuys, B L; George, M E; Gerber, P A; Gillwald, C E; Gomomo, P J; Goniwe, M T; Goosen, A D; Gous, S J; Green, L M; Greyling, C H F; Groenewald, P J; Gumede, D M; Hajaig, F; Hanekom, D A; Hendrickse, P A C; Hlaneki, C J M; Hogan, B A; Jassat, E E; Jeffery, J H; Joemat, R R; Jordan, Z P; Kalako, M U; Kannemeyer, B W; Kasienyane, O R; Kasrils, R; Kati, J Z; Kekana, N N; Kgarimetsa, J J; Kgauwe, Q J; Kgwele, L M; Komphela, B M; Koornhof, G W; Kota, Z A; Kotwal, Z; Lamani, N E; Landers, L T; Le Roux, J W; Lekgoro, M K; Lekota, M G P; Lishiva, T E; Lobe, M C; Lockey, D; Louw, J T; Louw, S K; Lucas, E J; Lyle, A G; Mabe, L; Mabena, D C; Madasa, Z L; Madlala-Routledge, N C; Magashule, E S; Magazi, M N; Magubane, N E; Magwanishe, G; Mahlangu, M J; Mahlawe, N; Mahomed, F; Maimane, D S; Maine, M S; Makanda, W G; Makasi, X C; Malebana, H F; Maloney, L; Malumise, M M; Manuel, T A; Maphalala, M A; Mapisa-Nqakula, N N; Martins, B A D; Masala, M M; Maserumule, F T; Mashimbye, J N; Masithela, N H; Mathibela, N F; Matsepe-Casaburri, I F; Maunye, M M; Mayatula, S M; Mbadi, L M; Mbete, B; Mbombo, N D; Mbuyazi, L R; Mdladlana, M M S; Meshoe, K R J; Mfundisi, I S; Mguni, B A; Mkono, D G; Mlambo-Ngcuka, P G; Mlangeni, A; Mnandi, P N; Mnumzana, S K; Modise, T R; Modisenyane, L J; Moeketse, K M; Mofokeng, T R; Mohamed, I J; Mohlala, R J B; Mokoena, D A; Molebatsi, M A; Molewa, B G; Moloi, J; Moloto, K A; Mongwaketse, S J; Montsitsi, S D; Moonsamy, K; Moosa, M V; Morkel, C M; Moropa, R M; Morutoa, M R; Morwamoche, K W; Moss, M I; Mothoagae, P K; Mpahlwa, M; Mpaka, H M; Mpontshane, A M; Mthembi-Mahanyele, S D; Mthembu, B; Mtsweni, N S; Mufamadi, F S; Mulder, C P; Mutsila, I; Mzizi, M A; Mzondeki, M J G; Nair, B; Nash, J H; Ncinane, I Z; Ndlovu, V B; Ndzanga, R A; Nel, A C; Nene, N M; Newhoudt-Druchen, W S; Ngaleka, N E; Ngcengwane, N D; Ngculu, L V J; Ngubane, H; Ngubeni, J M; Nhleko, N P; Nhlengethwa, D G; Njobe, M A A; Nkabinde, N C; Nobunga, B J; Nqakula, C; Nqodi, S B; Ntombela, S H; Ntshulana-Bhengu, N R; Ntuli, B M; Ntuli, M B; Ntuli, S B; Nzimande, L P M; Olifant, D A A; Oosthuizen, G C; Pahad, A G H; Pahad, E G; Phadagi, M G; Pheko, S E M; Phohlela, S; Pieterse, R D; Pretorius, I J; Rabie, P J; Radebe, J T; Rajbally, S; Ramakaba-Lesiea, M M; Ramgobin, M; Ramotsamai, C M P; Rasmeni, S M; Reid, L R R; Ripinga, S S; Saloojee, E; Schippers, J; Schneeman, G D; Schoeman, E A; Schoeman, R S; Scott, M I; Seaton, S A; Seeco, M A; Sekgobela, P S; September, C C; September, R K; Shilubana, T P; Shope, N R; Sibiya, M S M; Sigcau, S N; Sigcawu, A N; Sigwela, E M; Sikakane, M R; Simmons, S; Sithole, D J; Skhosana, W M; Skosana, M B; Skweyiya, Z S T; Smith, V G; Solo, B M; Sonjica, B P; Sosibo, J E; Sotyu, M M; Southgate, R M; Swart, S N; Tinto, B; Tolo, L J; Tshabalala-Msimang, M E; Tsheole, N M; Twala, N M; Uys, P; Vadi, I; Van den Heever, R P Z; Van der Merwe, A S; Van der Merwe, S C; Van Deventer, F J; Van Jaarsveld, A Z A; Van Wyk, A (Annelize); Van Wyk, J F; Van Wyk, N; Vos, S C; Xingwana, L M T; Zita, L; Zondo, R P; Zulu, N E.
NOES - 33: Andrew, K M; Bell, B G; Blanché, J P I; Borman, G M; Botha, A J; Bruce, N S; Clelland-Stokes, N J; Cupido, P W; Da Camara, M L; Ellis, M J; Farrow, S B; Gore, V C; Grobler, G A J; Heine, R J; Jankielsohn, R; Kalyan, S V; Lee, T D; Lowe, C M; Maluleke, D K; Moorcroft, E K; Ntuli, R S; Opperman, S E; Pillay, S; Schalkwyk, P J; Schmidt, H C; Selfe, J; Semple, J A; Seremane, W J; Smuts, M; Sono, B N; Swart, P S; Taljaard, R; Waters, M.
Vote accordingly agreed to.
Vote No 21 - Defence - put.
Declarations of vote:
Mr A J BOTHA: Madam Speaker, The DP, on behalf of the DA … [Interjections.] … opposes the Budget for the following reasons: Firstly, the force design and structure of the National Defence Force need restructuring. The Budget does not acknowledge this need.
Secondly, spending on the arms deal for this year only goes up to R7,6 billion, whilst the Department of Education is allocated a mere R8,8 billion and Health has a budget of R7,1 billion.
Personnel expenditure, with the exclusion of the arms deal, equals an enormous 52% of the total budget, caused by too many generals and senior staff. Financial losses due to theft and loss of military property are unacceptably high, and no provision for training to adjust to the new armaments has been made.
A saving of approximately R8 billion by cancelling the second, which has not been adhered to, and third tranches, should have been used, inter alia, to build over a million houses or fund basic support grant for 2 million children at current levels of R130 per month, for six years. It could pay the salaries of almost 50 000 police constables for the 10 years or put a million children through school, for the next six years.
HON MEMBERS: Yes!
Mr A J BOTHA: The DP, on behalf of the DA, will not be party to a budget as inconsiderate to the poor as this one. [Applause.]
Mr V B NDLOVU: Madam Speaker and the hon House, although the IFP will support the Budget, we want to raise these concerns: The first concern is the control of theft within the department. The department itself said that they could not control it. They do not even know who stole what, when and how. Therefore we want that to be controlled. It is very important.
The second concern is the boosting of the morale of soldiers, especially those who are deployed outside the country. It is important that the soldiers be looked after, especially those who are outside the country, so that they should still feel some warmth while they are not with their families. They should be looked after thoroughly and properly because they are human beings like all of us.
The last concern is that the soldiers should be improved when they are deployed within the area of South Africa, especially when they are deployed with the police, to make sure that they know the rules of the game. To deploy them without proper training, with the police, will put them in jeopardy, and that will put the department in jeopardy. Therefore the department must avoid being pursued by the individual and private citizens by deploying soldiers when they are not supposed to be deployed.
We support the Budget.
Mnr P J GROENEWALD: Mev die Speaker, die Nasionale Weermag het ‘n taak om te verrig. Sy belangrikste taak is die handhawing van die soewereiniteit van die Republiek van Suid-Afrika.
Dit is ongelukkig so dat die wapentransaksie ‘n negatiewe beeld geskep het. Persepsies het ontstaan dat die Nasionale Weermag korrup is, en dat dit nie goed gegaan het nie. Die werklikheid is dat dit nie billik is om die wapentransaksie op die brood van die Suid-Afrikaanse Nasionale Weermag te smeer nie.
Die VF sal hierdie begrotingspos steun, maar dit moet ook baie duidelik wees dat die VF nie ten gunste is van korrupsie, of van bedrog nie. Daar sal binnekort ‘n hofsaak wees oor dié aangeleentheid waarin ‘n agb lid van hierdie Huis die aangeklaagde sal wees. Ons sal die verloop daarvan met belangstelling volg. Ek wil weer eens ‘n beroep op die agb Minister doen, dat waar dit gaan oor wapenaankope, die lede van die weermag bo alle verdenking moet wees.
Al die politieke partye in hierdie Huis het die wapenaankopeprogram aanvanklik gesteun. Dit is ‘n werklikheid dat die wapentuig van die weermag in ‘n vervalle toestand was. Daar moes nuwes aangekoop word. Daarom sê die VF weer eens, ons sal die begrotingspos steun, maar ons is nie ten gunste van korrupsie en bedrog ten opsigte van die wapenaankope nie. (Translation of Afrikaans declaration of vote follows.)
[Mr P J GROENEWALD: Madam Speaker, the National Defence Force has a task to fulfil. Its most important task is maintaining the sovereignty of the Republic of South Africa.
Unfortunately the weapons transaction has created a negative image. Perceptions have arisen that the National Defence Force is corrupt and that all is not well. In reality it is not fair to lay the weapons transaction at the doorstep of the South African National Defence Force.
The FF will support this Vote, but we must make it very clear that the FF is not in favour of corruption or fraud. Soon there will be a court case in connection with this matter in which an hon member of this House will be the accused. We will follow the course of events with interest. I would once again like to appeal to the hon the Minister that as far as the purchase of weapons is concerned, the members of the defence force should be above suspicion.
Initially all the political parties in this House supported the programme for the purchase of weapons. It is a reality that the armaments of the defence force were in a very poor condition. New armaments had to be purchased. For that reason we in the FF say, once again, that we will support the Vote, but we are not in favour of corruption and fraud with regard to the purchase of weapons.]
Ms T R MODISE: Madam Speaker, one must, in fact, agree with every word spoken by Mr Peter Groenewald. South Africa is the only country that has undertaken as comprehensive a defence review as we have.
This House agreed to the equipping. It is also not absolutely true that we have not taken steps to ensure that every piece of equipment that we acquire is being trained for. We have different task teams in the different countries where we acquire equipment.
We must also make sure that as much as we scream and are proud of the SA National Defence Force and the rescue people, in peace, we should also be proud to dig deep and provide.
We therefore must have a Defence Force which is adequately equipped, we must take our lead in Africa, we must make sure that we guard our borders, and we must make sure that we protect life and limb.
The occurrences of 11 September make it very clear that it is not only ignorant but also foolish of us to continue saying that we cannot have a well-equipped Defence Force.
The ANC supports this Vote. [Applause.] Division demanded.
The House divided:
AYES - 263: Abram, S; Ainslie, A R; Asmal, A K; Balfour, B M N; Baloyi, M R; Baloyi, O S B; Benjamin, J; Beukman, F; Bhengu, F; Blaas, A; Bloem, D V; Booi, M S; Botha, N G W; Buthelezi, M G; Buthelezi, M N; Cachalia, I M; Camerer, S M; Cassim, M F; Chalmers, J; Chauke, H P; Chiba, L; Chikane, M M; Chiwayo, L L; Chohan-Kota, F I; Cindi, N V; Coetzee-Kasper, M P; Cronin, J P; Cwele, S C; Davies, R H; De Lange, J H; Diale, L N; Didiza, A T; Dithebe, S L; Ditshetelo, P H K; Dlali, D M; Doidge, G Q M; Dowry, J J; Dudley, C; Duma, N M; Durand, J; Dyani, M M Z; Erwin, A; Fankomo, F C; Fazzie, M H; Fihla, N B; Fraser-Moleketi, G J; Frolick, C T; Gandhi, E; Gcina, C I; Geldenhuys, B L; George, M E; Gerber, P A; Gillwald, C E; Gomomo, P J; Goniwe, M T; Goosen, A D; Gous, S J; Green, L M; Greyling, C H F; Groenewald, P J; Gumede, D M; Hajaig, F; Hanekom, D A; Hendrickse, P A C; Hlaneki, C J M; Hogan, B A; Jassat, E E; Jeffery, J H; Joemat, R R; Jordan, Z P; Kalako, M U; Kannemeyer, B W; Kasienyane, O R; Kasrils, R; Kati, J Z; Kekana, N N; Kgarimetsa, J J; Kgauwe, Q J; Kgwele, L M; Komphela, B M; Koornhof, G W; Kota, Z A; Kotwal, Z; Lamani, N E; Landers, L T; Le Roux, J W; Lee, T D; Lekgoro, M K; Lekota, M G P; Lishiva, T E; Lobe, M C; Lockey, D; Louw, J T; Louw, S K; Lucas, E J; Lyle, A G; Mabe, L; Mabena, D C; Madasa, Z L; Madlala-Routledge, N C; Magashule, E S; Magazi, M N; Magubane, N E; Magwanishe, G; Mahlangu, M J; Mahlawe, N; Mahomed, F; Maimane, D S; Maine, M S; Makanda, W G; Makasi, X C; Malebana, H F; Maloney, L; Manuel, T A; Maphalala, M A; Mapisa- Nqakula, N N; Martins, B A D; Masala, M M; Mashimbye, J N; Masithela, N H; Masutha, M T; Mathibela, N F; Matsepe-Casaburri, I F; Maunye, M M; Mayatula, S M; Mbadi, L M; Mbete, B; Mbombo, N D; Mbuyazi, L R; Mdladlana, M M S; Meshoe, K R J; Mfundisi, I S; Mguni, B A; Middleton, N S; Mkono, D G; Mlambo-Ngcuka, P G; Mlangeni, A; Mnandi, P N; Mnumzana, S K; Modise, T R; Modisenyane, L J; Moeketse, K M; Mofokeng, T R; Mohamed, I J; Mohlala, R J B; Mokoena, D A; Molebatsi, M A; Molewa, B G; Moloi, J; Moloto, K A; Mongwaketse, S J; Montsitsi, S D; Moonsamy, K; Moosa, M V; Morkel, C M; Moropa, R M; Morutoa, M R; Morwamoche, K W; Moss, M I; Mothoagae, P K; Mpahlwa, M; Mpaka, H M; Mpontshane, A M; Mthembi- Mahanyele, S D; Mthembu, B; Mtsweni, N S; Mufamadi, F S; Mulder, C P; Mutsila, I; Mzizi, M A; Mzondeki, M J G; Nair, B; Nash, J H; Ncinane, I Z; Ndlovu, V B; Ndzanga, R A; Nel, A C; Nene, N M; Newhoudt-Druchen, W S; Ngaleka, N E; Ngcengwane, N D; Ngculu, L V J; Ngubane, H; Ngubeni, J M; Nhleko, N P; Nhlengethwa, D G; Njobe, M A A; Nkabinde, N C; Nobunga, B J; Nqakula, C; Nqodi, S B; Ntombela, S H; Ntshulana-Bhengu, N R; Ntuli, B M; Ntuli, M B; Ntuli, S B; Nzimande, L P M; Olifant, D A A; Oosthuizen, G C; Pahad, A G H; Pahad, E G; Phadagi, M G; Pheko, S E M; Phohlela, S; Pieterse, R D; Pretorius, I J; Radebe, J T; Rajbally, S; Ramakaba-Lesiea, M M; Ramgobin, M; Ramotsamai, C M P; Rasmeni, S M; Reid, L R R; Ripinga, S S; Saloojee, E; Schippers, J; Schneeman, G D; Schoeman, E A; Schoeman, R S; Scott, M I; Seeco, M A; Sekgobela, P S; September, C C; September, R K; Shilubana, T P; Shope, N R; Sibiya, M S M; Sigcau, S N; Sigcawu, A N; Sigwela, E M; Sikakane, M R; Simmons, S; Sithole, D J; Skhosana, W M; Skosana, M B; Skweyiya, Z S T; Smith, V G; Solo, B M; Sonjica, B P; Sosibo, J E; Sotyu, M M; Southgate, R M; Swart, S N; Tinto, B; Tolo, L J; Tshabalala-Msimang, M E; Tsheole, N M; Twala, N M; Uys, P; Vadi, I; Van den Heever, R P Z; Van der Merwe, A S; Van der Merwe, S C; Van Deventer, F J; Van Jaarsveld, A Z A; Van Wyk, A (Annelize); Van Wyk, J F; Van Wyk, N; Vos, S C; Xingwana, L M T; Zita, L; Zondo, R P; Zulu, N E.
NOES - 33: Andrew, K M; Bell, B G; Blanche, J P I; Borman, G M; Botha, A J; Bruce, N S; Clelland-Stokes, N J; Cupido, P W; Da Camara, M L; Ellis, M J; Farrow, S B; Gore, V C; Grobler, G A J; Heine, R J; Jankielsohn, R; Kalyan, S V; Lee, T D; Lowe, C M; Maluleke, D K; Moorcroft, E K; Ntuli, R S; Opperman, S E; Pillay, S; Schalkwyk, P J; Schmidt, H C; Selfe, J; Semple, J A; Seremane, W J; Smuts, M; Sono, B N; Swart, P S; Taljaard, R; Waters, M.
Vote accordingly agreed to. Vote No 22 - Independent Complaints Directorate - put.
Declarations of vote:
Mnr J J DOWRY: Mev die Speaker, agb lede, ek het in die begrotingsdebat genoem dat die Onafhanklike Klagtedirektoraat, OKD, nog nie tot sy volle reg gekom het nie. Ek het verder genoem dat hulle ontsettend belangrike werk doen, en dat die eenheid ten volle deur die gemeenskap benut moet word.
Hoewel die Nuwe NP ten gunste van die begrotingspos gestem het, moet dié verklaring bygevoeg word: Ons het kennis geneem van ‘n geval waar die Nasionale Kommissaris van Polisie hom met die werksaamhede van die OKD ingemeng het. Die Nuwe NP doen ‘n beroep op die Minister om sy mag en posisie te gebruik om die onafhanklikheid van die OKD te verseker. (Translation of Afrikaans declaration of vote follows.)
[Mr J J DOWRY: Madam Speaker, hon members, I mentioned in the Budget debate the fact that full justice has not yet been done to the Independent Complaints Directorate, the ICD. I further mentioned that they do extremely important work, and that the unit should be fully utilised by the community.
Although the New NP did not vote in favour of the Vote, we must add this statement: We noted a case in which the National Commissioner of Police had interfered in the activities of the ICD. The New NP appeals to the Minister to use his power and position to ensure the independence of the ICD.]
Mr M E GEORGE: Madam Speaker, before I deal with what the New NP said, I want to say that the ICD is meant to help the police service in its transformation programme, and to do that it must work with the police, not against them. To deal with those individuals in the service who sometimes get out of line does not make them opponents of the service.
What the hon member says is unfortunate because he is speaking about a statement that was made by the ICD, a statement that has not been checked with the National Commissioner. The last time the ICD was here, they made a statement which we said we would call the National Commissioner to answer to himself.
I have checked and verified that the statements made by the ICD against the National Commissioner are, in actual fact, not true, and I have explained this to the hon members. It is a pity that that is used as a declaration against this Vote.
The ANC will support this Vote. [Applause.]
Vote agreed to.
Vote No 23 - Justice and Constitutional Development - put.
Declarations of vote:
Adv H C SCHMIDT: Madam Speaker, the DP, on behalf of the DA, supports this Vote. In doing so, we wish to acknowledge the endeavours of those individuals within the department who attempt to improve the functioning thereof and, in particular, the determination of the national prosecuting authority to improve court functioning.
We also note the various steps taken to address aspects which are, unfortunately, still lagging behind, such as the appointment procedures of magistrates, legal aid and the chronic staff shortage.
However, serious shortcomings exist within the department. One is the failure of Government to use instruments available to it, such as the Public Protector and the Human Rights Commission, to protect the public from the terrible effects of bad administration. In fact, they are all complaining of insufficient funds to fulfil their duties, and the question we raise is: Is that deliberate action by Government?
The department’s financial control is in a shocking state. Ask Scopa. The inexperience of prosecutors at all levels needs to be addressed urgently. The disastrous state of affairs in the Department of Justice, with particular reference to its own national head office, needs to be resolved.
Mr M A MZIZI: Madam Speaker, the IFP will support thie Vote. We are, however, concerned that the Maintenance Act is not being fully implemented. There is an insufficient funding to employ the tracing agents needed to find the defaulters and serve them with the necessary documentation that will force them to appear before maintenance officers. This results in people that rely on the maintenance money and really need it not benefiting from it.
We therefore urge the Minister to look into this matter and speedily resolve this problem, though we know that the Minister did make mention of of the fact that the matter is receiving attention. However, I do not think that the matter should only receive attention, but that we should also see this taking off the ground.
We will remember that this Act was passed sometime in 1998. I think the then Deputy Minister is now the Minister of Health. She was pioneering this project. We think that this will be speedily done.
Mrs S M CAMERER: Madam Speaker, this year the New NP is supporting the Budget, because this year, for the first time in some years, we have heard of some improvement in the department’s problem areas. These include the low conviction rate delays, overloaded court rolls, inadequate facilities and security at courts leading to the still negative perception the public has of the criminal justice system.
There is an impressive attempt to get to grips with years of financial mismanagement, although this has not yet been turned around. Only yesterday, stories of R1,5 million worth of computer equipment purchased but gathering dust at head office hit the headlines, and the Auditor- General has, once again, condemned the department as one of the three worst run of all.
Because of budgetary constraints, the department’s disciplinary processes are also adversely inadequate to cope with the dishonest practices which, in the words of the Minister’s spokesperson, are rife in the department.
However, there are some impressive centres of excellence, such as the national prosecuting authority, which bears testimony to what adequate resourcing can do for the inherent talent that resides in the Department of Justice. We therefore urge the Minister to pursue his goal of adequate resourcing for his department, and we support the Vote with those reservations.
Mr S N SWART: Madam Speaker, justice requires that society deals seriously and firmly with crime, recognising that it is as much an offence against persons as it is against the state, and that it is as much a violation of the victim as it is a violation of the law.
Whilst the ACDP will support this Vote and has commended the DG and his team for a vastly improved financial report, there is clearly still much room for improvement.
The CFO Mr Mackenzie has stated that, and I quote -
… the MTEF allocation reflects a scarcity of funding, and better management of available funding is thus critical.
Of greater concern is his admission that, and I quote -
… the legacy systems and processes are not coping …
And in the case of the deposit account, in which moneys in trust are administered on behalf of the public, contingent losses have been acknowledged as nonquantifiable. If the contingent losses are nonquantifiable, how will one begin to determine the amount that has been lost due to fraud, theft or corruption? It seems to be a case of getting close to knowing what we do not know.
Whilst I fully appreciate that many of the systems were inherited, the CFO statement that, and I quote, ``taken as a whole, the management of the deposit account has collapsed’’, is a very serious admission.
The deplorable condition of many of the magistrates’ courts, particularly in the former homelands and townships, is obviously a matter of concern and will require major capital expenditure in many cases. This issue was highlighted by the Deputy Minister and the Chief Justice in a recent submission to the portfolio committee. Inasmuch as human resources are concerned, the CFO further stated that whilst across-the-board pockets of excellence exist, fundamental problems still remain.
However, it would be remiss of us to forget the loyal dedication of the departmental staff, judiciary and prosecutors in addressing court backlogs by means of Saturday and additional courts. Without these courts the backlog would be more severe. The ACDP will accordingly support this Budget Vote.
Adv J H DE LANGE: Madam Speaker, hon members, ladies and gentlemen, I rise
on behalf of the ANC in unconditional support of this Budget Vote. Of
course, it is a very exciting day for me. I look at the speakers’ list and
where it says Declarations of vote'' there are only four parties, where
it saysObjections’’ there is no one, and where it says ``Division’’
there is no one. It is so exciting. I think it is a historic event that
this Budget Vote is going through without anyone objecting.
The SPEAKER: Hon member, I would not provoke the parties, please.
Adv J H DE LANGE: No, Madam Speaker, I am just testing their resolve. I can see they stand by their principles. So I am very excited, and I stand with such a blossoming and happy heart today, and there is very little to say … [Interjections.] And a haircut. [Laughter.] Let me say it is a lot of hard work that got us to this day on which we do not have anyone objecting to this Vote or calling for a division. There is no doubt that there are enormous problems in our justice system.
Mr M J ELLIS: My colleagues are getting soft.
Adv J H DE LANGE: That hon member’s colleagues are getting soft, but I think what is happening is that common sense is prevailing on that side at last. [Interjections.] While common sense still prevails, I will try and make my point.
I do think it is a lot of hard work. Firstly, it is hard work in terms of creating a new financial management system which is starting to pay dividends, and, secondly, I think it is also paying dividends through the leadership in the department in the different business units which is starting to understand the vision of where the department is going and trying to implement that vision.
I think those are the two issues that have changed - the creation of new systems and the fact that their leadership structures are starting to stand up to be counted for what they are doing. We, of course, will help them and watch them closely, and hopefully next year we will even be able to give a better report and keep our record clean with no objections and divisions.
I want to thank all the other parties for having such good common sense to vote with the ANC unconditionally for this Budget Vote. [Applause.]
Mr M J ELLIS: Madam Speaker, despite the provocation, we will not object to this Vote. [Laughter.]
Vote agreed to.
Vote No 24 - Safety and Security - put.
Declaration of vote:
Adv P S SWART: Madam Speaker, the late Minister of Safety and security always claimed to be serious about crime. When he on 18 May 2000 stated in this House that, and I quote, ``the year 2002 will see South Africa’s own renaissance in our fight against crime’’, 3 888 out of every 100 000 citizens had been victims of crime in 1999. But then this figure increased to 4 000 for 1999 and 2000, the highest ever.
The SA Police Service is serious about crime, as reflected in this year’s breakdown in the programmes of its budget, with greater emphasis on crime prevention, visible policing and its strategic planning. We salute them for that.
The National Commissioner is serious about crime. At the budget hearings late in 2001 he requested more police officers. He needs 38 000, with proper resources to stabilise crime in 340 of our 1 100 police areas - just to stabilise crime. He got 16 000 staggered over three years for the 4 084 people out of every 100 000 who were victims of crime in 2001. The people of this country are serious about crime. Every poll indicates that unemployment and crime are always above any other concerns in their minds. Crime figures are the only real indicators as to our success in this fight as, for some bizarre reason, Cabinet decided to deny us access to the latest statistics, leaving us to rely on the available figures.
But then, as to the bigger picture, we are not persuaded that the executive, as a collective, is serious enough about crime, not when the National Commissioner’s needs go unheeded, but there is money for tax relief of R15 million and billions and billions for the second and third phase of the arms deal.
We in the DA, like all the people of this country, are serious about crime, and the DP cannot support a budget that is insufficient to bring crime down and see to the safety and security needs of all our people.
Mr V B NDLOVU: Madam Speaker and hon members, crime is the responsibility of the police, therefore it is the primary role that the police should be focusing on. In order to do that, the police must have enough human resources to deal with that matter. Therefore the recruitment and employment drive that the department has embarked on, including the directive from the President, will improve the human resources within the police.
The most important part that the police should be looking into is the investigation part. The police should investigate cases, and cases should not be thrown out of court because they were not investigated thoroughly or because of the poor quality of the investigation.
The third issue I want to talk about is corruption within the Police Service. I do applaud the department for doing everything that it has done to clamp down on corruption, especially on corrupt police officers within the department.
I know that in KwaZulu-Natal about 19 police officers have been arrested in Mountain Rise Police Station in Pietermaritzburg as a result of corrupt acts such as stealing petrol and other things from the department. I applaud the police for that, and I want them to be even more harsh to the police, because the police have to maintain law, not break it.
Lastly, I appeal to the department to look after the widows of police officers, because their spouses are mostly killed in the line of duty because someone wanted to steal their guns, property and so on. It could be better understood if the widows of police officers were looked after by an association of widows of police officers, and if the department made sure that it serviced such an association by, for instance, making available a social worker or a psychologist to look after these widows.
Rev K R J MESHOE: Madam Speaker, whenever South Africans are asked to mention which of the issues facing them concern them the most, crime is always at the top of their list. It is very unfortunate that people who love this country of their birth have to live in fear of criminals regardless of where they live or where they find themselves.
South Africans are attacked, robbed, hijacked and murdered on a daily basis. Not even children in school are safe any more, or even babies that are still in their mothers’ wombs. No place on the South African soil is respected by criminals. Safety and security is not guaranteed to anybody, regardless of where they live or work.
The ACDP holds this Government responsible for this unacceptable state of affairs. Until Government agrees to punish criminals and teach them that crime does not pay, the ACDP will not support the Safety and Security Vote No 24. We call on Government to put the constitutional right to security of the person at the top of their priority list and make this beautiful country the safest country on this continent by eradicating crime.
Mnr P J GROENEWALD: Mev Speaker, die agb Minister is nie lank ‘n Minister nie, en die gevolg is dat hy sit so ‘n bietjie met erfsondes van sy voorganger. Die werklikheid is dat volgens inligting aan die FF daar gisteraand alleen in ‘n voorstad van Pretoria soos Elarduspark nie minder as vyf motorkapings plaasgevind het nie.
Die agb Minister het by sy aanstelling bekendgemaak dat die misdaad in Suid- Afrika nie hoër is as in ander lande nie. Ek wil aan die agb Minister ‘n uitnodiging rig. Ek wil hom vra om minstens twee weke lank in Johannesburg te gaan rondstap, maar sonder sy lyfwagte. Hy moet nie sy lyfwagte saamvat nie. Dan sal hy miskien agterkom wat die misdaadvlakke in Suid-Afrika werklik is. Dit is onaanvaarbaar.
Die ander aspek is dat die FF die enigste politieke party is wat ook ‘n dokument ingehandig het by die kommissie wat plaasmoorde ondersoek. Hierdie kommissie se bevindings sou al verlede jaar bekendgemaak gewees het. Op ‘n amptelike vraag van my aan die agb Minister het hy verlede Maart geantwoord dat die oorsake van en die motiewe vir plaasmoorde reeds bekend is, maar dit word nie openbaar gemaak nie.
So lank as hierdie motiewe en oorsake nie bekendgemaak word nie, asook die hoë totale vlak van misdaad in Suid-Afrika, kan die VF nie hierdie begrotingspos ondersteun nie. (Translation of Afrikaans declaration of vote follows.)
[Mr P J GROENEWALD: Madam Speaker, the hon Minister has not been a minister for long and the result is that he is now saddled with a bit of original sin from his predecessor. According to information made available to the FF, the reality is that last night alone, in a suburb of Pretoria such as Elardus Park, no fewer than five car hijackings took place.
The hon the Minister announced with his appointment that crime in South Africa is no higher than it is in other countries. I would like to extend an invitation to the hon the Minister. I want to ask him to walk around in Johannesburg for at least two weeks, but without his bodyguards. He should not take his bodyguards along. Then perhaps he will realise what the real levels of crime are in South Africa. It is unacceptable.
The other aspect is that the FF is the only political party which handed in a document to the commission investigating farm murders. The findings of this commission would have been published last year already. On an official question from me to the hon the Minister he answered last March that the causes of and the motives for farm murders are already known, but that it is not made public.
As long as these motives and causes are not published as well the high level of crime in South Africa, the FF cannot support this budget vote.]
Mr M E GEORGE: Madam Speaker, I want to address my inputs to the statements made by the ACDP and the FF. I am very concerned about the fact that South Africans could go out of their way to give a negative image of their country. What they are saying here is very far from the truth.
I am the first one to accept, and I would repeat and emphasise, that the police have done a lot of work to bring down the levels of crime, something these parties do not appreciate. We must also accept that the levels of crime in this country are still unacceptably high - we do not deny that. But the impression must not be created that nothing is being done. A lot has been done. Many crimes have been stabilised and in actual fact there are even moves to bring some of the crimes down.
The National Commissioner and his team are doing everything to fight crime. When the Minister addressed us for the first time in the portfolio committee, he gave us a vision which also shows that he is just as committed as the police to bringing the levels of crime down in this country. Looking at the vision of the Minister of Safety and Security, Comrade Charles, it is very clear that there is a plan to fight crime in this country. This is a matter of concern for all of us, and that is why I have been pleading with these gentlemen on my left not to turn crime into a political football. It is a serious challenge facing our new democracy.
Some of them brought the question of the arms deal into Safety and Security. That is ridiculous. What has Safety and Security to do with the arms deal?
Now that the Minister of Finance is here, I just want to say that we are thankful for the increase in the department’s budget. But, as many members have said, the budget is not adequate to address the challenges facing Safety and Security.
The SPEAKER: Hon member, having made your plea, you must conclude, as your time for a declaration has expired.
Mr M E GEORGE: What the Minister has done is welcome and we support this budget. [Time expired.]
Vote agreed to (Democratic Party, African Christian Democratic Party, Federal Alliance and Freedom Front dissenting).
Vote No 25 - Agriculture - agreed to.
Vote No 26 - Communications - put.
Declarations of vote:
Ms M SMUTS: Madam Speaker, when we conducted the Communications Budget Vote debate here on 7 May, we did so without having had a presentation from the department or an opportunity to ask for explanations in answer to such questions as the following: Why is only R111 million being voted for Icasa in a year when the regulator is expected to conduct the serial licensing procedure for the second fixed-line operator? It is simply not enough. Where is the benefit of all the consultants hired by the department? It is simply too much.
We accept that the funeral of the late hon Minister Steve Tshwete made the scheduled budget presentation difficult, but we were promised a session with the department before the actual vote today and we have not had it. Now that in itself is unacceptable. The reason why the department is so distracted is also the other reason why we voted against this budget. Its latest legislative exercise, much like the flip-flop Telecommunications Amendment Act last year, is turning into a fiasco. The Internet law contains chapters of sheer sci-fi fantasy which bear little relation to actual Internet technology.
On the subject of fantasy, I must advise hon members that the ZA domain primary zone file is not, in fact, hidden on a gunnery platform off the English coast, as SATV speculated in an unusually bizarre news item last night. Whoever told the SABC so is functioning on the wilder shores of fantasy. One has a suspicion of who, in fact, told them. Let me tell the hon Kekana that it is not on the gunnery platform … [Interjections.] … and someone is functioning on the wilder shores of fantasy. This is seriously worrying.
It is time to bring South Africa back to reality or we will be in trouble.
Mr L M GREEN: Madam Speaker, although the ACDP supports this Budget Vote, we do so with reservations because we are concerned about the treatment of Christian community radio stations by Icasa. Icasa has made every effort to put obstacles in the way and to harass local community and Christian radio stations. Registration has been held up for years, in many cases. In others, licences have been removed and all kinds of obstacles have been put in the way. Taxpayers’ money is wasted on long-drawn-out court cases only because Icasa has a bigger budget to litigate.
The victimisation of Christian community radio stations must come to an end. We cannot vote in favour year after year for the fat salaries of Icasa councillors while those very councillors are hostile to Christian community radio stations - not because their programmes are inadequate or the management of these stations is poor or they do not have public support, but because they are predominantly Christian.
We commend Radio Tygerberg and Radio CCFM and all other Christian radio stations for the sterling work they have done.
Mr N N KEKANA: Madam Speaker, I am really surprised at the position taken by Mr Green. First of all community radio stations need to be informed that the hon member has not been attending meetings this year, so he is not in a position to even comment about the budget of the department.
The DP will always be the way they are. The DP should be ashamed of itself for supporting anarchy and instability regarding the Internet in this country. The DP, together with Mr Lawrie, is creating uncertainty. It is important, for the record, to state that the dot-za is not private intellectual property. It belongs to all South Africans, and the same goes for the Internet. It is very important for us to do so. [Applause.]
What we want is a domain name and allocation system that is open, transparent and representative. We have stated this. The Bill also says so. [Applause.]
The ANC supports this Budget Vote. The ANC is confident that the director- general, under the political leadership of the Minister, is doing a sterling job in contributing to skills development in the country. The ANC is confident that as a country we are benefiting from the roll-out of Telkom and from what the SABC is trying to do. Of course there is still a lot of improvement that needs to be done.
The ANC is confident that Icasa is delivering in as far as community radio stations are concerned. There has to be a balance between communities of interest and geographic communities as far as radio stations are concerned. We are confident that the department is doing a sterling job and we support this Vote. [Applause.]
Division demanded.
The House divided: AYES - 251: Abram, S; Ainslie, A R; Asmal, A K; Bakker, D M; Balfour, B M N; Baloyi, M R; Benjamin, J; Blaas, A; Bloem, D V; Booi, M S; Botha, N G W; Buthelezi, M G; Buthelezi, M N; Cachalia, I M; Camerer, S M; Carrim, Y I; Cassim, M F; Chalmers, J; Chiba, L; Chikane, M M; Chiwayo, L L; Chohan- Kota, F I; Cindi, N V; Coetzee-Kasper, M P; Cronin, J P; Cwele, S C; Davies, R H; De Lange, J H; Diale, L N; Didiza, A T; Dithebe, S L; Ditshetelo, P H K; Dlali, D M; Doidge, G Q M; Dowry, J J; Duma, N M; Durand, J; Dyani, M M Z; Erwin, A; Fankomo, F C; Fazzie, M H; Ferreira, E T; Fihla, N B; Fraser-Moleketi, G J; Gandhi, E; Gcina, C I; Geldenhuys, B L; George, M E; Gerber, P A; Gillwald, C E; Gomomo, P J; Goniwe, M T; Goosen, A D; Gous, S J; Greyling, C H F; Gumede, D M; Hajaig, F; Hanekom, D A; Hlaneki, C J M; Hogan, B A; Jassat, E E; Jeffery, J H; Joemat, R R; Jordan, Z P; Kalako, M U; Kannemeyer, B W; Kasienyane, O R; Kasrils, R; Kati, J Z; Kekana, N N; Kgarimetsa, J J; Kgauwe, Q J; Kgwele, L M; Komphela, B M; Koornhof, G W; Kota, Z A; Kotwal, Z; Lamani, N E; Landers, L T; Le Roux, J W; Lekgoro, M K; Lishiva, T E; Lobe, M C; Lockey, D; Louw, J T; Louw, S K; Lucas, E J; Lyle, A G; Mabe, L; Mabena, D C; Madasa, Z L; Madlala-Routledge, N C; Magashule, E S; Magazi, M N; Magubane, N E; Magwanishe, G; Mahlangu, M J; Mahlawe, N; Mahomed, F; Maimane, D S; Maine, M S; Makanda, W G; Makasi, X C; Malebana, H F; Maloney, L; Malumise, M M; Manuel, T A; Maphalala, M A; Mapisa-Nqakula, N N; Martins, B A D; Masala, M M; Maserumule, F T; Mashimbye, J N; Masithela, N H; Masutha, M T; Mathibela, N F; Matsepe-Casaburri, I F; Maunye, M M; Mayatula, S M; Mbadi, L M; Mbombo, N D; Mbuyazi, L R; Mdladlana, M M S; Mfundisi, I S; Mguni, B A; Middleton, N S; Mkono, D G; Mlambo-Ngcuka, P G; Mlangeni, A; Mnandi, P N; Mnumzana, S K; Modise, T R; Modisenyane, L J; Moeketse, K M; Mofokeng, T R; Mohamed, I J; Mohlala, R J B; Mokoena, D A; Molebatsi, M A; Molewa, B G; Moloi, J; Moloto, K A; Mongwaketse, S J; Montsitsi, S D; Moonsamy, K; Moosa, M V; Morkel, C M; Moropa, R M; Morutoa, M R; Morwamoche, K W; Moss, M I; Mothoagae, P K; Motubatse, S D; Mpahlwa, M; Mpaka, H M; Mpontshane, A M; Mthembu, B; Mtsweni, N S; Mufamadi, F S; Mutsila, I; Mzondeki, M J G; Nair, B; Nash, J H; Ndlovu, V B; Ndzanga, R A; Nel, A C; Nel, A H; Nene, N M; Newhoudt- Druchen, W S; Ngaleka, N E; Ngcengwane, N D; Ngculu, L V J; Ngubane, H; Ngubeni, J M; Nhleko, N P; Nhlengethwa, D G; Njobe, M A A; Nkabinde, N C; Nobunga, B J; Nqakula, C; Nqodi, S B; Ntombela, S H; Ntshulana-Bhengu, N R; Ntuli, B M; Ntuli, M B; Ntuli, S B; Nzimande, L P M; Olifant, D A A; Oosthuizen, G C; Pahad, A G H; Pahad, E G; Phadagi, M G; Pheko, S E M; Phohlela, S; Pieterse, R D; Pretorius, I J; Rabie, P J; Radebe, J T; Rajbally, S; Ramakaba-Lesiea, M M; Ramgobin, M; Ramodike, M N; Ramotsamai, C M P; Rasmeni, S M; Reid, L R R; Ripinga, S S; Roopnarain, U; Saloojee, E; Schippers, J; Schneeman, G D; Schoeman, E A; Schoeman, R S; Scott, M I; Seaton, S A; Sekgobela, P S; September, C C; September, R K; Shilubana, T P; Shope, N R; Sigcau, S N; Sigcawu, A N; Sigwela, E M; Sikakane, M R; Simmons, S; Sithole, D J; Skhosana, W M; Skosana, M B; Skweyiya, Z S T; Smith, V G; Solo, B M; Sonjica, B P; Sosibo, J E; Sotyu, M M; Tinto, B; Tolo, L J; Tshabalala-Msimang, M E; Tsheole, N M; Twala, N M; Vadi, I; Van den Heever, R P Z; Van der Merwe, A S; Van der Merwe, S C; Van Jaarsveld, A Z A; Van Wyk, J F; Van Wyk, N; Vos, S C; Xingwana, L M T; Zita, L; Zondi, K M; Zondo, R P; Zulu, N E.
NOES - 36: Andrew, K M; Bell, B G; Blanche, J P I; Borman, G M; Botha, A J; Bruce, N S; Clelland-Stokes, N J; Cupido, P W; Da Camara, M L; Dudley, C; Ellis, M J; Farrow, S B; Gore, V C; Green, L M; Grobler, G A J; Groenewald, P J; Heine, R J; Jankielsohn, R; Kalyan, S V; Lowe, C M; Maluleke, D K; Moorcroft, E K; Mulder, C P; Ntuli, R S; Opperman, S E; Pillay, S; Schalkwyk, P J; Semple, J A; Seremane, W J; Smuts, M; Sono, B N; Southgate, R M; Swart, P S; Swart, S N; Taljaard, R; Waters, M.
Vote accordingly agreed to.
Vote No 27 - Environmental Affairs and Tourism - put.
Declarations of vote:
Mrs L R MBUYAZI: Madam Speaker, the department has allocated R80 million in 2002-03 for the World Summit on Sustainable Development. There must be something that can be gained by the local people, especially the previously disadvantaged, such as the chance to exhibit their wares, access to employment opportunities and wider representation through co-operatives and NGOs. The amount to be paid by the co-operatives and NGOs for their exhibitions is too expensive. We appeal to the Minister to use some of this allocated amount to help these poor communities and disadvantaged people to exhibit.
Another issue is the fishing quotas, which leave much to be desired as far as the previously disadvantaged communities are concerned. We acknowledge the fishing rights that have been allocated to the 22 commercial fishing sectors for the period of four years. We suggest some kind of rotation to prevent monopolisation and the denial of internal access to emerging fishermen.
Vote agreed to (Democratic Party dissenting). Vote No 28 - Labour - put.
Declarations of vote:
Mr N J CLELLAND-STOKES: Madam Speaker, the Department of Labour has worked hard this year and produced some pleasing results. The Compensation Commission has improved measurably, The Setas are receiving due attention and intervention where necessary and the inspections of workplaces are rooting out child labour. All of these are pluses.
But, as I said in the debate last month to the Minister, the cold, hard fact is that unskilled workers are so expensive that everyone who is in the job creation business will do anything to avoid hiring more people. Frankly, the facts are against the Minister. Seven million South Africans are today unemployed. Almost half of these people are younger than 30 and almost 90% of them do not possess any skills or training for any kind of job. The labour law amendments were a step in the right direction, and we will give the Minister credit for this, but we still need a radical, far- reaching overhaul to create jobs for our people.
The Department and the Ministry of Labour have many important roles and responsibilities, some of which it is dealing with very well, and all of which pale into insignificance when pitted against the need to provide an economic environment conducive to investment and job creation.
Mr J DURAND: Madam Speaker, the New NP supports this Budget Vote. We want to congratulate the Minister on the good work that he is doing. But, like me, he has got no hair on his head, and so I cannot ruffle his hair.
Employment creation is still the biggest problem facing this Government and the key instrument for fighting poverty. If we want to fight poverty and ensure economic growth we need to educate and train more workers, because, while joblessness is on the rise, the most noticeable change in the labour market is an increased demand for skilled workers.
If the unemployed remain unemployable, then South Africa is heading for serious economic problems. Because of high unemployment crime is increasing daily. When people are unemployed they have the option of starving or stealing.
Crime and corruption are crippling our society and only contribute to the bad impression that investors have of our country. However, we support the Budget Vote.
Mr R M MOROPA: Madam Speaker, while we understand that the issue of unemployment is a challenge to this country, through our efforts as members of this Parliament we should be able to come up with measures that can address that issue. We, as the ANC, fully support the Minister’s Budget Vote, because we understand that this budget is not a standalone budget. It is a budget that is taking forward the work of previous years’ budgets.
We also understand that this budget provides the department with a unique opportunity to play a pivotal role in ensuring labour-absorbing economic growth. The budget convincingly attempts to undo a deeply fractured and disintegrated national skills profile and conversely replaces it with a national skills profile that reflects the demographics of our South African population as provided for in our Reconstruction and Development Programme.
The budget not only adheres to our political imperatives but also gives impetus to an effective macroeconomic strategy. It is this budget that clearly outlines the commitments of the department against which this year’s performance of the department will be measured. I therefore, on behalf of the ANC, declare our unconditional support for Vote No 28. [Applause.]
Adv Z L MADASA: Madam Speaker, the ACDP supports the Budget Vote, but we would like to highlight the following. Unemployment is still a major concern for everyone, And the low skills level is one of the major problems, especially in a modern economy such as ours. I would like to call upon the Minister to look for creative ways to stimulate the utilisation of the Skills Development Fund, because both the private and the public sector are guilty in this regard.
I am still curious to hear the Minister implement what was raised by the President of this country at some stage when he called for a reduction of labour costs without reducing wages. I am still curious to know what that means - reduction of labour costs without reducing wages. I have not heard the Minister address that issue. He seemed to be calling for some major magic formula to do that.
But I would like to say that it is not good to clamour about unemployment and slow growth when we are doing nothing to help skills development. I think those who are calling for unemployment to be addressed should do something about skills development. So, as far as that is concerned, the Minister was correct when he said skills development is the issue in addressing unemployment. But I am still curious to hear from the Minister about that formula of the President.
Vote agreed to (Democratic Party dissenting.) Vote No 29 - Land Affairs - put.
Declarations of vote:
Mr A J BOTHA: Madam Speaker, the DP is aware that the DA is very pleased that there are many more members of Cabinet present here today than is customary when Land Affairs and Agriculture are debated in this House.
Hierdie belangeloosheid van die Kabinetslede wanneer die landboubegroting bespreek word, is werklik vreemd. Dit is vreemd, want die Regering, sowel as die ANC verseker ons dat hulle die landbou baie belangrik ag. Nietemin skiet die bedrae tekort wat hierdie lede toestaan vir die landbou om aan hulle eie grondhervormingsdoelwitte te voldoen. Net om die gestelde doelwitte te behaal, moet daar elke jaar ten minste 1,5 miljoen hektaar aangekoop word. Die bedrae wat hiervoor toegestaan word, is hopeloos te laag. Die onafwendbare mislukking van die program sal dan nie opgelos word deur ander te blameer of uit te kryt as tweedeklasburgers nie. Dit sal ook sekerlik nie opgelos word deur die agb Oosthuizen se bombastiese oproepe tot vaderlandsliefde nie. Sonder dat dit enigsins reflekteer op die persoon van die agb Oosthuizen, sal dit hom tog loon om ag te slaan op dié wyse woorde: ``Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel.’’ (Translation of Afrikaans paragraph follows.)
[This lack of interest by the Cabinet members when the agriculture budget is discussed, is really strange. It is strange because the Government, as well as the ANC, ensure us that they consider agriculture to be very important. Nonetheless, the amounts which these members grant for agriculture to meet their own land reform objectives, fall short. In order merely to meet the set objectives, at least 1,5 million hectares must be purchased every year. The amounts granted for this purpose are hopelessly too low. The inevitable failure of the programme will then not be solved by blaming others or denouncing them as second-class citizens. It will certainly also not be solved by the hon Oosthuizen’s appeals for bombastic patriotism. Without it reflecting in any way on the hon Oosthuizen personally, it would benefit him to heed these wise words: Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel.’’]
Good government delivers, bad government blames. Bombastic calls for patriotism will not deliver land reform. Sufficient funds to enable the people in the departments to do their work can deliver land reform. The DA implores the Cabinet to give them the funds to enable them to do their work. [Interjections.]
Mr M A MAPHALALA: Madam Speaker, I stand here on behalf of the ANC to support the Budget Vote. It is one of the most important budget votes in the process of the democratisation and transformation of our country and addressing the question of poverty. We therefore support it.
Secondly, the department has committed itself to ensuring that, within a period of three years, we see drastic changes in the land reforms. Therefore we support this Vote.
In his speech, the chairperson of the Portfolio Committee on Agriculture and Land Affairs did indicate that for this department to be able to effectively carry out its enormous task, the Ministry in Treasury may have to consider the adjustment of this Budget. We therefore support this Budget Vote. [Applause.]
Vote agreed to.
Vote No 30 - Minerals and Energy - put.
Declarations of vote:
Mrs C DUDLEY: Madam Speaker, the ACDP supports the budget, but has serious reservations with regard to the Mineral and Petroleum Resources Development Bill. In this industry investments are so large, payback time so long and the costs of prospecting so heavy that no matter how good the intentions are, creating doubts will destroy it, as has been the case in Zambia, where mines were nationalised in 1974. The industry was destroyed and today no one wants those mines. Anyone can own shares in a mine, and to categorise mines as black or white in terms of major investors is insulting to workers and shareholders alike. In the absence of bankable rights, both foreign participation and entry by operators with limited capital resources will be constrained. Prospecting and mining activities in South Africa will be reduced and the attractiveness of South Africa as an investment destination may be impaired.
Continuity of tenure for existing rights holders and security of tenure in future are cornerstones of a successful state-custody mineral rights system and should be reflected explicitly in the legislation.
There is also a need for objective criteria in the Act to regulate administrative discretion with regard to access to the industry. Mining houses are concerned that the conversion process does not give a watertight guarantee that existing mines will continue to operate under new legislation. This will impact on the ability to plan long term and negatively affect the company and the state with regard to generating revenue.
Without certainty around the life of mine tenure, long-term investment decisions will be compromised. Mines in South Africa employ many thousands of people. Their families and the towns and communities that have grown up around these mines depend, for their livelihoods, on the uninterrupted operation of the mines.
The Bill as it stands introduces various uncertainties around continued operations, thereby threatening mining companies and those directly and indirectly dependent on them. Joint venture and empowerment partnerships to which mining houses contribute may also be in jeopardy. The ACDP suppports this Bill, but with these reservations.
Mnr P J GROENEWALD: Mev die Speaker, dit is nie aanvaarbaar vir die VF dat ‘n enkele amptenaar kan bepaal wat die trustbedrag moet wees vir die herwinning van die omgewing nadat ‘n myn se leeftyd verby is nie. Dit is nie aanvaarbaar vir die VF dat ‘n enkele amptenaar kan besluit of ‘n sekere lisensie vir delf toegestaan word of nie toegestaan word nie. Daar moet beter prosedures in plek kom. Die eenvoudigheid is: Daar is gevalle waar ‘n lisensie aan mense binne enkele dae toegestaan word, terwyl ander mense se aansoeke om te delf etlike maande al by die kantoor is en nie aandag kry nie. Alvorens hierdie korrupsie nie behoorlik aangespreek word in die Departement van Minerale en Energie nie, kan die VF nie hierdie begrotingspos steun nie. (Translation of Afrikaans declaration of vote follows.)
[Mr P J GROENEWALD: Madam Speaker, it is not acceptable to the FF that one official can determine the trust amount for the reclamation of the environment after the lifespan of a mine is over. It is not acceptable to the FF that one official can decide whether a certain licence for mining is granted or not. Better procedures should be put into place. The simple truth is: There are cases in which a licence is granted to people within a few days, while other people’s applications for mining have been at the office for several months without being considered. Before this corruption is properly dealt with in the Department of Minerals and Energy the FF cannot support this Vote.]
Mr T M GONIWE: Madam Speaker, the ANC supports this Budget Vote because the mandate given to the ANC by the overwhelming majority of South Africans was to ensure that the mineral resources of our country, the heritage of our people, would be restored to them.
Central to the restoration of this heritage to the people is the need to ensure that these are developed sustainably for the benefit of all South Africans, that the minerals and energy industries are deracialised and made to benefit the entire nation and that energy is available to industry and households, especially poor households.
This Government has striven, since the advent of democracy, to transform the minerals and energy sectors to achieve these objectives. The Department of Minerals and Energy has, through painstaking work, made significant strides towards the transformation of all aspects of the minerals and energy industry in its entirety. Part of these fruits of the hard work of this department will be seen next Tuesday as they will come to fruition when this august House debates and passes the Mineral and Petroleum Resources Development Bill.
This Bill will change the landscape of ownership patterns and bring into being a new transparent and accountable regulatory framework, thereby promoting equitable access and bringing the industry in line with the rest of the world. The ANC supports this Bill. When the rights were taken away from our people, they were never allowed to make speeches and submissions and issue press releases. The ANC will restore those rights to our people - the rightful owners. [Applause.] [Interjections.]
Vote agreed to (Democratic Party, Freedom Front and Federal Alliance dissenting).
Vote No 31 - Trade and Industry - put.
Declarations of vote:
Mr N S BRUCE: Madam Speaker, as you can see, I speak for the poor people in the rural areas of this country ÿ.ÿ.ÿ. [Interjections] ÿ.ÿ.ÿ. as do my colleagues on the left, as they explained, and my future colleagues sitting over there, who are going to join us tomorrow. [Interjections.]
A Ministry may have the most brilliant or effective policies aimed at the greatest public good, but they are as sounding brass if it does not also have a department that is able to implement them expeditiously and effectively. For at least the past three years, Trade and Industry has been in a process of turbulent reorganisation. Not doubt progress has been made. It now answers two out of every three telephone calls. Of course, this is real progress.
But the DTI is in the serious investment game. It is not playing in a dress rehearsal; it is already playing in the big league. It is usually the first contact a new investor or aspirant entrepreneur has with the bureaucratic jungle that it is constantly enlarging. If it is not seen to be efficient right from the first contact, it can innocently destroy, in the eyes of international investors, whatever confidence they had here, just as the dreadful Mineral and Petroleum Resources Development Bill we have just referred to is doing at the moment - a Bill which has Bob Mugabeism written all over it and which will certainly stifle investment in this country.
Policy is only as good as its instrument of implementation. If the Minister has a flawed means of implementation at his disposal, he might as well have a flawed policy. A better life for all hangs on a tenuous thread of operational efficiency. This department has to be evaluated on the outcome of its policy implementation. That, as I understand it, is rising investment and increasing jobs, neither of which has been achieved. [Applause.]
Mr H J BEKKER: Madam Speaker, the IFP will support the Trade and Industry Budget Vote. During the readings we have given our support also to the Minister and the director-general, and we have been very happy with the way things have been conducted at the Department of Trade and Industry.
The director-general has shown that he has the ability to move forward with this department. What was interesting was the hearings that we had in terms of this debate, particularly on industrial policy. I think there are a lot of positive moves for the future. Of course, we will not agree with each and every small item - one can never have everything - but, in general terms, the IFP will support this Vote.
Mrs C DUDLEY: Madam Speaker, the ACDP congratulates the Minister on the excellent job that has been done in Trade and Industry as a whole.
We must, however, register the strongest objections in terms of Government policy on gambling. Exploitation of the poor is not acceptable under any name, and lotteries and casinos are no exceptions. Gambling has proven to be unprofitable and cannot be defended in terms of benefiting the economy. The revenue-raising ability for provinces was used as a carrot to con the public into thinking vast amounts would be spent to alleviate poverty. The reality, however, is that poverty has increased and organisations working to alleviate suffering receive little or no assistance.
The budgets for gambling boards total R127 million. CEO packages range from R200 000 to nearly R900 000 and chairmen’s packages from R12 000 to nearly R700 000. How is this value for money? The promised tax take is, in reality, extremely poor, social costs astronomical and regulatory costs exorbitant.
The gambling industry exploits people’s weaknesses and undermines efforts towards moral regeneration. This new culture promotes greed and instant gratification and undermines the need to study, family life, delayed consumption and frugality. Gambling is a direct attack on the family and fosters prostitution, money-laundering, gangsterism, drugs and liquor - all industries which negatively impact on the spread of HIV/Aids and on law and order. The ACDP calls for a stop to this lunacy. At the very least there must be a moratorium until further assessment can be done on how the industry is impacting South Africa. While we will not vote against the budget as a whole, the ACDP has serious reservations in terms of gambling.
Now, to answer the hon the Minister who wanted to know if I was going to stop talking about sex: When the Government stops funding operations that target our children with filth, then I will not need to bring it to the Government’s attention. [Interjections.] Until they repent and turn from their wicked ways, they will hear from me. God loves them too much to leave them the way they are.
Dr R H DAVIES: Madam Speaker, the Portfolio Committee on Trade and Industry interacted very extensively on the budget this year. A report which we published in the ATC on 13 May recorded progress in financial management, progress in aligning the department’s programmes to its budget, progress in ensuring that resources allocated are actually deployed, progress in reporting on output targets and - I ask Mr Bruce to take note - progress in administrative efficiency, as reflected, for example, in the fact that the time it takes to register a company has been reduced from 21 days to three days. I am afraid that, as usual, Mr Bruce has presented us with a lot of fatuous nonsense.
As for the ACDP, I want to remind them that they are not the only ones who are concerned about the adverse social impact of gambling, particularly on the poor. It is precisely for that reason that the Government has opted for a path of strict regulation and why we engage significantly on the effectiveness of those regulations with the department from time to time. The problem with the ACDP is that they do not spell out their alternative. They appear to support prohibition without telling us how they would enforce it without driving the industry underground in the way it would only exacerbate the negative impacts on the poor.
The ANC will support this Budget Vote. [Applause.]
Vote agreed to (Democratic Party and Federal Alliance dissenting).
Vote No 32 - Transport - put.
Declarations of vote:
Mr S B FARROW: Madam Speaker, I notice that our Minister is not here, but maybe the Minister of Finance can take note of what I want to say. There are four major anomalies, by my judgment, in the budget. The first one relates to the lack of adequate funds to effectively start addressing the backlog in the maintenance of our roads nationally, provincially and at local level. Despite sterling efforts by the SA National Roads Agency Limited to keep our national roads as well maintained as possible, and the fact that new toll roads are operating well, it is imperative that a dedicated road fund be established in order to allocate funds on a proportional and conditional basis back to provinces and local government.
This is essential if we seriously want to ensure that these roads are improved, maintained and developed. Until this happens, the road maintenance backlog will not decline. To further toll nontoll roads will put a further burden and hardship on local communities.
The second aspect relates to the underfunding of rail infrastructure. The SARCC faces financial crisis unless more funds are urgently allocated, and the rail commuting public face the possibility of cutbacks on services, high risks to safety and security and, above all, the potential of more accidents occurring due to systems failure. More funds are urgently needed to address this pending crisis, particularly if we are to be serious about moving commuters and goods from road to rail.
The third aspect of concern is the inequality of subsidies to the taxi industry, when one takes into consideration that 60% of South African travelling commuters use taxis, yet only limited funds are provided for in the budget for infrastructure for taxi recapitalisation. If the public transport subsidies are, in fact, necessary for buses and rail, then we would argue that taxis should be proportionately subsidised, particularly if the realities of the new taxi roll-outs take place within this financial year.
Finally, it is of concern to me, and I am sure to everyone else, that during the debate on this Vote, the Minister made no mention of the implementation of the following Acts: the Road Traffic Management Corporation Act, the Administrative Adjudication of Road Traffic Offences Act and the legislation regarding the Road Traffic Infringement Agency. All these Acts were passed by this House and relate to the improvement and enforcement of aspects of road safety.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order! I regret that your time has expired, hon member.
Mr S B FARROW: It is concerning, therefore, that despite funds being allocated for these purposes, nearly three years since enactment we still have been unable to progress on the delivery of these Acts. [Time expired.]
Mr S N SWART: Madam Speaker, there are many motorists who use their private cars on a daily basis to go to work, even though it is more costly to do so. One only needs to see the traffic jams here in the Western Cape on the N1 and the N2 to substantiate this.
Many say that they do not have a choice as public transport is both unsafe and unreliable. There is no form of criminal activity that does not take place on our public transport, particularly on the trains, as is evidenced in many situations.
The ACDP has, on a number of occasions, called for the introduction of railway police to ensure the safety of our people who rely on this mode of public transport.
Furthermore, the condition of our roads is deteriorating quickly, as has been pointed out by previous speakers. The potholes on our national roads are increasing and I can personally vouch for the fact that the N12 between Christiana and Wellington is particularly difficult to navigate.
The ACDP will not support this Budget Vote until our public transport is safe, reliable and efficient.
Mr J P CRONIN: Madam Speaker, very quickly - almost as quickly as Premier Mbazima Shilowa’s Gautrain will get from Johannesburg to Pretoria - firstly, the ANC agrees with the previous speakers that there is serious underfunding, particularly of road and rail infrastructure and, most specifically, in terms of public transport. There is a serious problem on that front which we need to address.
As the ANC we accept that no national budget can do everything all at once and that transport is not necessarily always going to be at the top of the pecking order. We support Vote 32 as the ANC, but with the expectation - this is addressed to Minister Manuel - that in future years transport will start to receive a more dedicated focus. This is important. It is not just a question of money, of course; it is a question of capacity and focused strategies as well.
But that is it. We have arrived in Pretoria, and I hope that Minister Manuel can confirm that the transport message has also arrived in Pretoria. The ANC supports Vote 32. [Applause.]
Vote agreed to (Democratic Party, African Christian Democratic Party and Federal Alliance dissenting).
Vote No 33 - Water Affairs and Forestry - agreed to.
Question put: That the Schedule be agreed to.
Division demanded.
The House divided:
AYES - 206: Abram, S; Asmal, A K; Balfour, B M N; Baloyi, M R; Baloyi, O S B; Bekker, H J; Benjamin, J; Bhengu, F; Blaas, A; Bloem, D V; Botha, N G W; Cachalia, I M; Carrim, Y I; Cassim, M F; Chalmers, J; Chiba, L; Chikane, M M; Chiwayo, L L; Cindi, N V; Coetzee-Kasper, M P; Cronin, J P; Cwele, S C; Davies, R H; Diale, L N; Didiza, A T; Dithebe, S L; Ditshetelo, P H K; Dlali, D M; Doidge, G Q M; Dowry, J J; Dudley, C; Duma, N M; Durand, J; Dyani, M M Z; Erwin, A; Fankomo, F C; Fazzie, M H; Ferreira, E T; Fihla, N B; Fraser-Moleketi, G J; Frolick, C T; Gandhi, E; Geldenhuys, B L; Gerber, P A; Gomomo, P J; Goniwe, M T; Goosen, A D; Green, L M; Greyling, C H F; Gumede, D M; Hajaig, F; Hanekom, D A; Hendrickse, P A C; Hlaneki, C J M; Hogan, B A; Jassat, E E; Jeffery, J H; Joemat, R R; Jordan, Z P; Kasienyane, O R; Kasrils, R; Kati, J Z; Kekana, N N; Kgarimetsa, J J; Komphela, B M; Koornhof, G W; Kota, Z A; Lamani, N E; Landers, L T; Lekgoro, M K; Lishiva, T E; Lobe, M C; Lockey, D; Louw, J T; Louw, S K; Lucas, E J; Lyle, A G; Mabena, D C; Madasa, Z L; Madlala- Routledge, N C; Magashule, E S; Magubane, N E; Magwanishe, G; Mahlangu, M J; Mahlawe, N; Mahomed, F; Makanda, W G; Malebana, H F; Maloney, L; Malumise, M M; Manuel, T A; Maphalala, M A; Maserumule, F T; Mashimbye, J N; Mathibela, N F; Matsepe-Casaburri, I F; Maunye, M M; Mayatula, S M; Mbadi, L M; Mbombo, N D; Mbuyazi, L R; Mdladlana, M M S; Mfundisi, I S; Mguni, B A; Middleton, N S; Mkono, D G; Mlambo-Ngcuka, P G; Mnandi, P N; Mnumzana, S K; Modisenyane, L J; Moeketse, K M; Mohamed, I J; Mokoena, D A; Molebatsi, M A; Molewa, B G; Moloi, J; Moloto, K A; Mongwaketse, S J; Montsitsi, S D; Moonsamy, K; Moropa, R M; Morutoa, M R; Morwamoche, K W; Mothoagae, P K; Motubatse, S D; Mpahlwa, M; Mpaka, H M; Mpontshane, A M; Nair, B; Nash, J H; Ndlovu, V B; Ndzanga, R A; Nel, A C; Nel, A H; Ngcengwane, N D; Ngculu, L V J; Ngubane, H; Nhleko, N P; Nhlengethwa, D G; Njobe, M A A; Nkabinde, N C; Nqakula, C; Nqodi, S B; Ntombela, S H; Ntuli, B M; Ntuli, M B; Ntuli, S B; Olifant, D A A; Oosthuizen, G C; Pahad, E G; Phadagi, M G; Pheko, S E M; Phohlela, S; Pieterse, R D; Rabie, P J; Radebe, J T; Rajbally, S; Ramakaba-Lesiea, M M; Ramgobin, M; Ramodike, M N; Rasmeni, S M; Reid, L R R; Ripinga, S S; Roopnarain, U; Saloojee, E; Schippers, J; Schoeman, E A; Scott, M I; Seaton, S A; Seeco, M A; Sekgobela, P S; September, C C; September, R K; Shilubana, T P; Shope, N R; Sibiya, M S M; Sigcau, S N; Sigcawu, A N; Sigwela, E M; Sithole, D J; Skhosana, W M; Skosana, M B; Slabbert, J H; Smith, V G; Solomon, G; Sonjica, B P; Sosibo, J E; Sotyu, M M; Southgate, R M; Swart, S N; Tolo, L J; Tshabalala-Msimang, M E; Tsheole, N M; Twala, N M; Vadi, I; Van der Merwe, A S; Van der Merwe, S C; Van Wyk, A (Annelize); Van Wyk, J F; Van Wyk, N; Vos, S C; Xingwana, L M T; Zita, L; Zondi, K M; Zondo, R P; Zulu, N E.
NOES - 30: Andrew, K M; Bell, B G; Blanché, J P I; Borman, G M; Botha, A J; Bruce, N S; Clelland-Stokes, N J; Da Camara, M L; Eglin, C W; Ellis, M J; Farrow, S B; Gore, V C; Grobler, G A J; Heine, R J; Jankielsohn, R; Kalyan, S V; Lee, T D; Lowe, C M; Maluleke, D K; Moorcroft, E K; Ntuli, R S; Opperman, S E; Pillay, S; Schalkwyk, P J; Seremane, W J; Smuts, M; Sono, B N; Swart, P S; Taljaard, R; Waters, M.
Schedule accordingly agreed to.
APPROPRIATION BILL
(Second Reading debate)
The MINISTER OF FINANCE: Madam Speaker, hon members, I move. [Applause.]
Ms B A HOGAN: Madam Speaker, I am going to take my full 12 minutes, so I would ask the House to settle down. [Interjections.] I have one amendment that I want to propose and that is that the budget of the Leader of the Opposition be increased. The reason why I am proposing this is that I know that I am probably the most brilliant speaker in the House, and the Leader of the Opposition is so underresourced that he has to take my pearls of wisdom and put them into his speeches. I implore you, Madam Speaker, to let us raise his salary so that he can make his own speeches and not steal from mine. [Laughter.] [Interjections.]
On behalf of the ANC I rise in support of this Budget. It is a redistributive budget, yet it is growth-oriented. It is attentive to the needs of the poor, yet mindful of the challenges ahead. It is expansionary, yet fiscally prudent. It is a Budget which has returned over R8 billion back into the hands of South Africans and yet significantly expanded Government spending.
On behalf of the ANC I would like to congratulate the Ministries involved and, in particular, the economic team and also the Minister of Finance and his staff for bringing to this House this Budget. I wish them and their director-generals the best in implementing what we have appropriated for them today. [Applause.]
Ms R TALJAARD: Madam Speaker …
The MINISTER OF FINANCE: Are you crossing the floor … [Interjections.]
Ms R TALJAARD: No, thank you, Minister Manuel; I am very happy where I am.
When Standard & Poor’s upgraded South Africa’s local currency rating from BB to A minus with a stable outlook, it listed the following factors which constrained the country’s rating: modest external liquidity; structural weaknesses including the poverty level and income inequality; the HIV and Aids crisis; and slow progress in other areas of structural reform such as privatisation and the relaxation of the labour market. Many of these factors remain either politically sensitive and therefore insufficiently addressed by the alliance, or are simply treated with blanket and controversial denial, such as the HIV/Aids crisis, until the Constitutional Court intervened. This costs our country dearly in forgone investor sentiment and confidence.
Addressing these matters decisively will require bold leadership and decisive action, and the track record of the ANC in tackling these matters, marked new no-go areas by Cosatu, does not bode well for resolution.
While the endorsements by Standard & Poor’s and Moody’s of Government’s macroeconomic approach will boost South Africa’s prospects of attracting FDI, at a time of growing wariness of emerging markets, FDI will be wary of hostile or negative signals. In the words of US Secretary of State Colin Powell, ``Money is a coward.’’
Signals such as those emanating from the dot-za domain debacle and the travesty which is the Mineral and Petroleum Resources Development Bill are disastrous for our FDI prospects. While we are adopting tax incentives, as we do in this Bill, to attract FDI, other policy initiatives must not flatly contradict or undermine these efforts. As the Economist Intelligence Unit commented, the FDI community are watching these signals closely:
The tone of the Minerals Bill will be a significant indicator of the Government’s approach to balancing social developmental needs with investor-friendly practices relevant to other areas of policy under debate, such as foreign ownership of land.
The current Bill before the Minerals and Energy committee not only affords property rights insufficient protection, but also makes the wrong priority assessment.
A vote in favour of this Appropriation Bill would be tantamount to saying that insufficient economic growth - jobless economic growth, at that - political trade-offs that exacerbate disturbing inflationary pressures and policy flip-flops that have jeopardised the Telkom IPO before and may do so again are good enough. Quite simply, more of the same in this regard is simply not good enough.
South Africa needs economic growth in excess of 6% to dent poverty and unemployment in a meaningful way. Real annual GDP growth for 2001 was 2,2% compared with 3,4% in 2000. The low level of growth envisaged in the 2002 Budget is simply not good enough. As the Economist Intelligence Unit March 2002 country report points out, communications was a primary source of growth within this element of growth that we saw. The continued controversy with the dot-za domain name and Telkom IPO delays do not bode well for continued growth out of this sector.
While Government’s efforts at reducing the deficit have been commendable, if not politically heroic, this has been attributable to the significant revenue overruns. Clearly in the context of failed receipts of privatisation and paltry economic growth, Sars has bailed out both the Treasury, in terms of its growth targets, and the Minister of Public Enterprises on a number of occasions.
In this context of clear continued hardship and poverty, low economic growth, unemployment and rising inflation, the targeted tax relief we are voting on today in this Budget, and indeed next week in the Bill, has been all but eroded by inflation and by the increasing ravages of increases in prices for food and services. Missing already low economic growth targets is unacceptable. More of the same is therefore not acceptable for the DA and we cannot support this Bill.
When Minister Pahad knows something about economics one day, then we will talk. [Interjections.]
Mr H J BEKKER: Madam Speaker, the IFP will support the Second Reading of the Appropriation Bill. During the First Reading we paid tribute to the Minister, the Deputy Minister, the director-general and staff for their dedication and hard work. Higher tax collection by Sars enabled the Minister to reduce the tax rates and to physically put money back into the pockets of the taxpayers.
A concern is that this window of opportunity will become proportionately smaller in future as the effectiveness of Sars increases, because that will lead to more of the people who try to get away with tax evasion being caught out and the pool from which these extra moneys are being collected becoming smaller.
Inkatha has on several occasions proposed that consideration be given to the introduction of a general basic income grant. We fully realise that it will be very costly, but the alternative cost of not having it would be devastating to the poor and the indigent. The Taylor commission thoroughly researched and considered the pros and cons of a general social grant or basic income grant. More than 50% of the absolutely poor would move to a higher category and become less dependent. The basic income grant can be introduced in different stages. The gradual introduction of this security grant would assist in creating the necessary infrastructure and administration.
Initially the grant can be made available in the form of a child grant and an old age grant. This way one can then, at a later stage, make it a basic income grant for all the people in South Africa.
Another concern to the IFP is the spiralling increases in interest rates. Economic growth is being jeopardised by higher interest rates, and this will impact on job creation. The IFP realises that inflation must be curtailed, but we wish to remind Government of the economic reality of inflation, defined as ``too much money chasing too few goods’’. Therefore one can either do what the Governor of the Reserve Bank is doing by curtailing the money or what the hon the Minister of Trade and Industry wants to do, and that is to improve the manufacturing of goods and thus increase the quantity of goods in relation to the money; then one can find an equilibrium.
I am sure that the Minister of Finance will, in this regard, be the honest broker and do for us what is necessary and that we at least get an assurance that interest rates will not increase further. I think we have reached the optimum level at which we can scare people away and scare industry away from further development. The IFP will support the Second Reading of the Appropriation Bill.
Dr P J RABIE: Madam Speaker, hon Minister, hon Deputy Minister, hon members, a number of internal and external factors had an effect on the Appropriation Bill. Our present economic outlook is positive in contrast with the slowdown in international economic growth. Tax relief benefited all income groups. The rise in the PPI index and, recently, of CPIX inflation to 9,2%, however, is of concern. The depreciation of the rand had an effect on fuel and food prices from about January. The strengthening of the rand against the US dollar and the interest in gold, platinum and other commodity prices could lead to wide economic participation and further business investment and job creation.
Die konsepwet moet ook gesien word dat ekonomiese groei en die skep en instandhouding van infrastruktuur nou verband hou met die gehalte van besteding. Die finansiële rekenpligtigheid van staatsdepartemente en ander openbare instansies, indien daar doelmatige besteding van geld plaasvind, is ook belangrik om in gedagte te hou. Indien daar wanbesteding plaasgevind het in sekere departemente, is dit rede tot kommer.
Die uitbouing van die kapasiteit van die openbare sektor om diens op voetsoolvlak te lewer, is baie belangrik. Die vraag wat ontstaan, is: Word daar werklik aan die behoeftes van ‘n dinamiese en vinnig veranderende gemeenskap voldoen, waar armoede aan die orde van die dag is? Dit is nie net die Regering se plig om werklike onregmatighede ten opsigte van besteding reg te stel, maar ook politieke ampsbekleërs behoort hierdie rol te vul. Ons moet probeer om ‘n kultuur van doelgerigte probleemoplossing te skep. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)
[The draft Bill must also be seen in the light that economic growth and the creation and maintenance of infrastructure is in close relation with the quality of expenditure. It is also important to keep the financial accountability of government departments and other government institutions in mind when effective expenditure of money takes place. If misappropriation of funds took place in certain departments, it gives cause for concern.
The expanding of the capacity of the public sector to deliver service at grass-roots level is very important. The question that arises, is: Have the needs of a dynamic and rapidly changing community, where poverty is the order of the day, really been seen to? It is not the duty of the Government only to rectify true irregularities regarding spending, but political office-bearers should also fulfil this role.
We must try to create a culture of goal-oriented problem solving.]
The Portfolio Committee on Finance is busy finalising the Local Government: Municipal Finance Management Bill, which will codify municipal accounting practice and provide a framework for the 284 newly demarcated local authorities. The cost of the amalgamation of local authorities is also a factor that must be taken into account.
The New NP supports this Bill.
Dr G W KOORNHOF: Madam Speaker, hon members. During the last few annual budgets compliments have been bestowed on Team Finance in the National Treasury. It was because of the fact that Team Finance, under the capable leadership of the Minister of Finance, the Deputy Minister, the Director- General of the National Treasury and the top echelon of the department, have created confidence in and laid a solid foundation for our economy. This has come about because of consistent hard work and commitment, good strategy and good planning and a steadfast belief in their task.
My wish is that we will start to build Team South Africa in this country, where the confidence in our own country will become so strong that it will rub off on investors. Corruption will be wiped out, from the prisons to the boardrooms of companies. The true spirit of the Constitution, namely co- operative governance, will be lived in a practical way by preserving the peace, national unity and the indivisibility of the Republic. Service delivery will become a reality in every corner of our country and each of us will try to make it work. Business, labour and Government will meet in a spirit of ``What can we do collectively to make Team South Africa a shining success?’’. We will find new ways of unleashing the entrepreneurial spirit in our society, so that South Africa can produce more entrepreneurs that can win worldwide acclaim for their inventions.
Members of Team South Africa will ask: What can we do to make the economy work? How can we contribute to make Nepad a success story? What more can we do? How can we effectively create jobs for our people, provide quality education for all South Africans and succeed in a skills development initiative that will equip our people for the 21st century?
The time has come, eight years after our new democracy, to stand together as South Africans on major issues that will benefit our economy. We owe it to future generations in our beloved country.
The UDM supports the Appropriation Bill. [Applause.]
Mr L M GREEN: Madam Speaker, the debate on the Budget should be the most important event in the nation’s annual calendar. This is the time we give an account of the nation’s finances and whether we have been able to provide good governance in the management thereof.
The Budget should annually remind us of the moral, ethical and social equity which ought to be entrenched within public organs and against which the performance of our institutions is judged. The role of parliamentarians in this regard cannot be overemphasised. Parliament remains the bedrock of direction and delivery of excellence in stewardship and services.
The average taxpayer desires good governance, and this is why every year we engage in the Budget debate to measure our actions against the wishes of our people. We have a moral obligation, therefore, not to misread, misjudge or misrepresent the basic wishes and needs of the electorate.
The ACDP commends Minister Manuel and his department because, on the whole, we sincerely believe that this Budget is one of his best. We therefore support this Appropriation Bill.
Mr I S MFUNDISI: Madam Speaker, working on the Budget for 2002-03 has been really telling, since the exercise started in 2001 with preparation and presentation by the new Budget Committee and the department. We hope that the appropriation so enthusiastically approved will benefit the people of this country.
That there have been so few divisions on this Appropriation Bill is proof that we only differ to agree. We hope that those charged with this appropriation will not let us down by underspending, which has become the propensity of some departments.
We thank the Minister for the trouble taken to put together this brilliant budget. With this budget at their disposal, public servants only have themselves to blame if they do not perform. The UCDP asks of them to remember that … Maatlametlo a modisa go gogorosa. [One is judged by one’s work.]
To the uninitiated, service delivery is the name of the game. The UCDP supports the Appropriation Bill.
Mr J P I BLANCHÉ: Madam Speaker, South Africa is well on the road to a one- party state, as indicated by Mr Mugabe and followed by Mr Mbeki and Mr Marthinus van Schalkwyk. [Interjections.] I have, during the Budget Vote debate on Parliament, indicated to what extent the Rules of this House are bent by the ANC. Madam Speaker, you have yourself indicated that you will want them amended to turn South Africa back onto the road of democracy. [Interjections.]
I have indicated what silent diplomacy our President has followed. He tells people not to make hate speeches, but he does nothing when they ignore him.
One wonders where South Africa would have been and how far we would have gone on the road to democracy had Cyril Ramaphosa or Tokyo Sexwale remained in the presidential race. [Interjections.]
Die DA sal in die twee jaar wat voorlê alle Suid-Afrikaners oorreed om van hierdie President en sy party ontslae te raak en daarom stem die FA teen hierdie wetgewing. [During the two years that lie ahead the DA will convince all South Africans to get rid of this President and his party and that is why the FA is voting against this legislation.]
Miss S RAJBALLY: Madam Speaker, concerning the Appropriation for the financial year ending 31 March 2003, for the national sphere of Government, the MF expresses its approval. It is felt that the allocations made to the top 10 budgets are adequate. However, we have reservations, and these concern the need to prioritise a larger percentage towards Housing and Health. What is the sense in maintaining high levels of safety and defence for an unhealthy and homeless nation? Equilibrium has to be established between internal and external necessities.
It is also felt that the boost in the budget for Sport and Recreation should be such that it can be used more adequately to recruit and to divert our youth from criminal tendencies.
It is heartening to note that our state of the nation address has been upheld in the appropriation for Housing, Education and Health. We thank the Minister for this Appropriation Bill. The MF supports it. [Applause.]
THE MINISTER OF FINANCE: Somlomo [Chairperson], … there are none so blind as those who will not see and none so deaf as those who will not hear. Fortunately, the majority of parties in this House see, hear and feel, and their communities and constituencies respond to a very positive Budget.
I would like to express appreciation to those who have supported this Budget this afternoon, and I ask that we go forward in the spirit of unity. [Applause.]
Debate concluded.
Question put: That the Bill be read a second time.
Division demanded.
The House divided:
AYES - 236: Abram, S; Ainslie, A R; Asmal, A K; Bakker, D M; Balfour, B M N; Baloyi, M R; Baloyi, O S B; Bekker, H J; Benjamin, J; Bhengu, F; Blaas, A; Bloem, D V; Booi, M S; Botha, N G W; Buthelezi, M N; Cachalia, I M; Carrim, Y I; Cassim, M F; Chalmers, J; Chiba, L; Chikane, M M; Chiwayo, L L; Cindi, N V; Coetzee-Kasper, M P; Cronin, J P; Davies, R H; Diale, L N; Didiza, A T; Dithebe, S L; Ditshetelo, P H K; Dlali, D M; Doidge, G Q M; Dowry, J J; Du Toit, D C; Duma, N M; Durand, J; Dyani, M M Z; Erwin, A; Fankomo, F C; Fazzie, M H; Ferreira, E T; Fihla, N B; Fraser- Moleketi, G J; Frolick, C T; Gandhi, E; Gcina, C I; Geldenhuys, B L; George, M E; Gerber, P A; Gomomo, P J; Goniwe, M T; Goosen, A D; Gous, S J; Green, L M; Greyling, C H F; Gumede, D M; Hajaig, F; Hanekom, D A; Hendrickse, P A C; Hlaneki, C J M; Hogan, B A; Jassat, E E; Jeffery, J H; Joemat, R R; Jordan, Z P; Kalako, M U; Kannemeyer, B W; Kasienyane, O R; Kasrils, R; Kati, J Z; Kekana, N N; Kgarimetsa, J J; Kgauwe, Q J; Kgwele, L M; Komphela, B M; Koornhof, G W; Kota, Z A; Lamani, N E; Landers, L T; Le Roux, J W; Lekgoro, M K; Lishiva, T E; Lobe, M C; Lockey, D; Louw, J T; Louw, S K; Lucas, E J; Lyle, A G; Mabe, L; Mabena, D C; Madasa, Z L; Madlala-Routledge, N C; Magashule, E S; Magazi, M N; Magubane, N E; Magwanishe, G; Mahlangu, M J; Mahlawe, N; Mahomed, F; Maimane, D S; Maine, M S; Makanda, W G; Makasi, X C; Malebana, H F; Maloney, L; Malumise, M M; Manuel, T A; Maphalala, M A; Martins, B A D; Maserumule, F T; Mashimbye, J N; Masithela, N H; Masutha, M T; Mathibela, N F; Matsepe- Casaburri, I F; Maunye, M M; Mayatula, S M; Mbadi, L M; Mbombo, N D; Mbuyazi, L R; Mdladlana, M M S; Mfundisi, I S; Mguni, B A; Middleton, N S; Mkono, D G; Mnandi, P N; Mnumzana, S K; Modise, T R; Modisenyane, L J; Moeketse, K M; Mofokeng, T R; Mohamed, I J; Mohlala, R J B; Mokoena, D A; Molebatsi, M A; Moloi, J; Moloto, K A; Mongwaketse, S J; Montsitsi, S D; Moonsamy, K; Moropa, R M; Morutoa, M R; Morwamoche, K W; Moss, M I; Mothoagae, P K; Motubatse, S D; Mpahlwa, M; Mpaka, H M; Mpontshane, A M; Mthembu, B; Mtsweni, N S; Mutsila, I; Mzondeki, M J G; Nair, B; Nash, J H; Ndzanga, R A; Nel, A C; Newhoudt-Druchen, W S; Ngaleka, N E; Ngcengwane, N D; Ngculu, L V J; Ngubeni, J M; Nhleko, N P; Nhlengethwa, D G; Njobe, M A A; Nkabinde, N C; Nobunga, B J; Nqakula, C; Nqodi, S B; Ntombela, S H; Ntshulana-Bhengu, N R; Ntuli, B M; Ntuli, M B; Ntuli, S B; Nzimande, L P M; Olifant, D A A; Pahad, A G H; Pahad, E G; Phadagi, M G; Phohlela, S; Pieterse, R D; Pretorius, I J; Rabie, P J; Rabinowitz, R; Radebe, J T; Rajbally, S; Ramakaba-Lesiea, M M; Ramgobin, M; Ramodike, M N; Ramotsamai, C M P; Rasmeni, S M; Reid, L R R; Ripinga, S S; Roopnarain, U; Saloojee, E; Schneeman, G D; Schoeman, E A; Scott, M I; Seaton, S A; Seeco, M A; Sekgobela, P S; September, C C; September, R K; Shilubana, T P; Shope, N R; Sibiya, M S M; Sigcau, S N; Sigcawu, A N; Sigwela, E M; Simmons, S; Sithole, D J; Skhosana, W M; Skosana, M B; Slabbert, J H; Smith, V G; Solomon, G; Sonjica, B P; Sosibo, J E; Tinto, B; Tolo, L J; Tshabalala-Msimang, M E; Tsheole, N M; Twala, N M; Vadi, I; Van der Merwe, A S; Van der Merwe, S C; Van Jaarsveld, A Z A; Van Wyk, A (Annelize); Van Wyk, J F; Van Wyk, N; Vos, S C; Xingwana, L M T; Zita, L; Zondi, K M; Zondo, R P; Zulu, N E.
NOES - 32: Andrew, K M; Bell, B G; Blanché, J P I; Borman, G M; Botha, A J; Bruce, N S; Clelland-Stokes, N J; Da Camara, M L; Eglin, C W; Ellis, M J; Farrow, S B; Gibson, D H M; Gore, V C; Grobler, G A J; Heine, R J; Jankielsohn, R; Kalyan, S V; Lee, T D; Lowe, C M; Maluleke, D K; Moorcroft, E K; Ntuli, R S; Opperman, S E; Pillay, S; Schalkwyk, P J; Schmidt, H C; Seremane, W J; Smuts, M; Sono, B N; Swart, P S; Taljaard, R; Waters, M.
Question agreed to.
Bill accordingly read a second time.
The House adjourned at 17:41. ____
ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS
ANNOUNCEMENTS:
National Assembly and National Council of Provinces:
- The Speaker and the Chairperson:
(1) Assent by the President of the Republic in respect of the
following Bills:
(i) Performers' Protection Amendment Bill [B 74D - 2001] - Act
No 8 of 2002 (assented to and signed by President on 18
June 2002);
(ii) Copyright Amendment Bill [B 73D - 2001] - Act No 9 of 2002
(assented to and signed by President on 18 June 2002);
(iii) Constitution of the Republic of South Africa Amendment
Bill [B 16B - 2002] - Act No 18 of 2002 (assented to and
signed by President on 19 June 2002);
(iv) Local Government: Municipal Structures Amendment Bill [B
22B - 2002] - Act No 20 of 2002 (assented to and signed
by President on 19 June 2002);
(v) Constitution of the Republic of South Africa Second
Amendment Bill [B 17D - 2002] - Act No 21 of 2002
(assented to and signed by President on 19 June 2002);
and
(vi) Loss or Retention of Membership of National and Provincial
Legislatures Bill [B 25B - 2002] - Act No 22 of 2002
(assented to and signed by President on 19 June 2002).
(2) The following Bill was introduced by the Minister of Finance in
the National Assembly on 20 June 2002 and referred to the Joint
Tagging Mechanism (JTM) for classification in terms of Joint Rule
160:
(i) Taxation Laws Amendment Bill [B 26 - 2002] (National
Assembly - sec 77).
The Bill has been referred to the Portfolio Committee on Finance
of the National Assembly.
National Assembly:
- The Speaker:
(1) Report of the South African delegation to the 107th Inter-
Parliamentary Union Conference, Marrakech, 17-23 March 2002.
The Report is available from the Parliamentary Library.
(2) Mr M C J van Schalkwyk has vacated his seat with effect from 20
June 2002, and the vacancy has been filled with effect from 20
June 2002 by the nomination of Dr R T Rhoda.
(3) Bills passed by National Assembly on 19 June 2002: Submitted to
President of the Republic for assent:
(i) Constitution of the Republic of South Africa Second
Amendment Bill [B 17D - 2002] (National Assembly - sec 74).
(ii) Loss or Retention of Membership of National and Provincial
Legislatures Bill [B 25B - 2002] (National Assembly - sec
76).
TABLINGS:
National Assembly and National Council of Provinces:
Papers:
- The Minister of Environmental Affairs and Tourism:
Explanatory Memorandum to the Stockholm Convention on Persistent
Organic Pollutants.
- The Minister for Safety and Security: Regulation No R 721 published in Government Gazette No 23443 dated 24 May 2002: Regulations tabled in terms of section 24(1) of the South African Police Services Act, 1995 (Act No 68 of 1995).
National Assembly:
- The Speaker:
(1) The following changes have been effected to the membership of
Committees, viz:
Public Accounts:
Appointed: Seaton, S A (Alt).
Public Works:
Appointed: Blanché, J P I.
COMMITTEE REPORTS:
National Assembly:
-
Second Interim Report of the Ad Hoc Committee on Powers and Privileges of Parliament, dated 20 June 2002:
The Ad Hoc Committee on Powers and Privileges of Parliament reports as follows:
-
On 5 April 2001 the Committee was instructed to consider the recommendations of the Joint Subcommittee on Powers and Privileges of Parliament, and to introduce a Bill in accordance with Chapter 13 of the National Assembly Rules.
-
The Committee considered the legislation, research work, written and oral submissions from the public, as well as inputs from provincial legislatures. It also conferred with the Ad Hoc Select Committee on Powers and Privileges of Parliament of the National Council of Provinces, and incorporated amendments suggested by that committee.
-
The Committee’s scheduled meetings often clashed with other meetings, which many members deemed as of primary importance. This led to this Committee’s meetings being cancelled, or discussions going ahead with only a few members in attendance.
-
The Committee last met on 28 May 2002. An Eighth Draft Bill was prepared for discussion by political parties before the Committee was to adopt the Bill and report to the House by 20 June 2002. However, due to the passing away of the Committee Chairperson, Mr P R Mokaba, this time-frame could not be met.
-
The Committee has recently been requested to consider a number of additional matters for inclusion in the legislation. It therefore requests the Chairperson of Committees and the Programming Committee, as well as the Chief Whips’ Forum, to assist it by arranging suitable dates for it to meet, bearing in mind that many members of this Committee are chairpersons of their own committees.
-
This Committee needs to consider these matters in depth, amend the legislation where necessary, adopt the final Bill and report to the National Assembly during the third term.
-
With the above in mind, the Committee requests the House to extend its deadline to a date to be determined by the Programming Committee for reporting to it and for introducing the final Bill.
Report to be considered.
-
-
Report of the Portfolio Committee on Provincial and Local Government on Property Valuation in Eastern Cape, Northern Cape, Western Cape and other relevant Provinces, dated 20 June 2002:
The Portfolio Committee on Provincial and Local Government reports as follows:
(a) Current valuations of property in the Eastern Cape, the Northern Cape and the Western Cape, for purposes of rating, have been undertaken in terms of the Property Valuation Ordinance, 1993 (Cape) (“the Ordinance”).
(b) Potential legal challenges exist regarding these valuations.
(c) The said challenges may arise in regard to the applicability or otherwise of the Ordinance.
(d) Legal certainty is required regarding the applicability and interpretation of the Ordinance.
(e) There may be other provinces which may be similarly affected.
(f) Time-consuming steps are required for the processing of local government legislation.
(g) The imminent processing of the Local Government Laws Amendment Bill provides a window of opportunity to address the abovementioned concerns regarding the Ordinance.
The Committee therefore recommends that -
(1) appropriate legislative measures are attended to and processed in the “Local Government Laws Amendment Bill”, when that Bill is introduced in Parliament, with a view to resolving any uncertainties regarding the applicability and interpretation of the Property Valuation Ordinance, 1993 (Cape), and of any other provincial ordinances which may suffer from similar uncertainties; and
(2) the abovementioned legislative measures be attended to expeditiously.
Report to be considered.
-
Supplementary Report of Task Group on Sexual Abuse of Children, dated 20 June 2002:
The Task Group on Sexual Abuse of Children wishes to note the contribution to the process of the public hearings and the drafting of the main Report, published on 14 June 2002 (Announcements, Tablings and Committee Reports, p 835), made by the following members: Mr D V Bloem; Ms N V Cindi; Mrs C Dudley; Mrs D M Morobi; Ms P N Mnandi; Ms I Mutsila; Ms N M Tsheole.