National Assembly - 31 October 2002
THURSDAY, 31 OCTOBER 2002 __
PROCEEDINGS OF THE NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
____
The House met at 14:01.
The Chairperson of Committees took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayers or meditation.
ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS - see col 000.
The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order, hon members. Please be seated. I have to announce that the President has appointed Mr M L Mushwana as the Public Protector. [Applause.]
NOTICES OF MOTION
Ms S P RWEXANA: Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the ANC:
That the House -
(1) notes that Cape Town lacked good governance and abandoned the poor under the DA’s mayor, Gerald Morkel;
(2) further notes that the new mayor, Nomaindia Mfeketo, has announced -
(a) the fast-tracking of the development of District Six;
(b) the extension of closed circuit television cameras to crime
hotspots on the Cape Flats; and
(c) a moratorium on all evictions and water cut-offs;
(3) believes that the mayorship under the ANC/New NP co-operation will strive for equitable, efficient and effective service delivery and will contribute to poverty alleviation and job creation; and
(4) congratulates Mayor Nomaindia Mfeketo on her election as Mayor of the unicity of Cape Town.
[Applause.]
Mr C M LOWE: Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the DP:
That the House -
(1) notes with dismay that the comments made by Deputy Minister Pahad, which cast doubt upon the peer review mechanism of the African Union, and which astounded and disturbed international opinion, have now been endorsed by President Mbeki; (2) further notes that Deputy President Zuma and President Mbeki appear to have conflicting views on the matter, in that the Deputy President stated in the House yesterday that the Deputy Minister had been misunderstood;
(3) resolves that the President and Deputy President, together with the Deputy Minister, should decide which view was correct since the future of Nepad largely depends on projecting both to Africa and to donor countries that peer review of political governance is essential.
[Applause.]
Mr J H SLABBERT: Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the IFP:
That the House -
(1) notes with shock that nine foreign tourists were killed and a further 10 passengers injured when their tour bus was involved in an accident between Piet Retief and Pongola in Mpumalanga on 30 October 2002;
(2) conveys its sympathy and condolences to the families of the deceased;
(3) wishes the injured a speedy and full recovery; and
(4) urges the relevant national and provincial transport authorities to vigorously investigate the causes of the accident and to take whatever appropriate remedial action is required.
Rre W M SKHOSANA:
Gore Ntlo -
(1) e lemoge gore -
(a) bagolo ba le batlhano, ba ba akaretsang mme le ngwana wa gagwe
wa dikgwedi di le robedi, ba latlhegetswe ke matshelo a bona ka
Latshipi, 27 Diphalane, kwa motseng wa Klipgat mo porofenseng ya
Bokone Bophirima. Kotsi e bakilwe ke lebelo le le kwa godimo la
sejanaga se se ba thutseng;
(b) mokgweetsi wa sejanaga le ena o ne a ragisiwa kgamelo ke
boidiidi jwa batho ba ba tshagetseng ba ba neng ba iponatsa kwa
lefelong leo;
(2) e dire le boikuelo jwa gore -
(a) bakgweetsi botlhe ba dijanaga ba obamele melao ya tsela, le go
fokotsa lebelo le le kwa godimo fa ba feta mo metseng;
(b) baagi ka kakaretso ba ikobele tsereganyo ya batlhankedi ba
dipalangwa le mapodisi, go na le go itseela molao mo diatleng;
mme
(3) E fetse ka go fetisa matshediso go masika le ditsala tsa batho ba ba latlhegetsweng, le go lakaletsa ba ba gobetseng pholo mo nakong e e sa fediseng pelo. (Translation of Tswana notice of motion follows.)
[Mr W M SKHOSANA:
That the House -
(1) notes -
(a) that five adults, including a mother and her 8-month-old child
were killed on Sunday, 27 October 2002, in Klipgat in the North
West Province when a vehicle travelling at a high speed crashed
on them; and
(b) the driver of the vehicle was subsequently killed by angry
bystanders;
(2) calls on -
(a) all drivers to adhere to road traffic rules, including speed
limits; and
(b) the members of the public to report traffic rules
transgressions and not to take the law into their hands; and
(3) expresses its condolences to the bereaved families and wishes those who were injured a speedy recovery.]
[Time expired.] [Applause.]
Mnr C H F GREYLING: Voorsitter, hiermee gee ek kennis dat ek by die volgende sitting van die Huis, namens die Nuwe NP, sal voorstel:
Dat die Huis -
(1) kennis neem van ‘n mediaverklaring wat mnr Charles Redcliffe, LP, vandag uitgereik het, waarin hy sê dat hy, ten spyte van die verwagte oorloopwetgewing, ‘n lid van die Nuwe NP bly en sy termyn tot en met die volgende verkiesing en daarna in die Nuwe NP wil uitdien;
(2) verder kennis neem van die redes vir sy besluit, naamlik-
(a) die eerbare wyse waarop leier van die Nuwe NP, mnr Marthinus van
Schalkwyk, teenoor hom opgetree en sy ondernemings aan hom
gestand gedoen het;
(b) die algehele gebrek aan leierskap in die DP/DA, veral ten
opsigte van hule optrede teenoor lede in a Wetgewer van KwaZul-
Natal en raadslede in die Wes-Kaap wat wou oorloop; en
(c) dat die Nuwe NP die beste tuiste vir hom is om sy kiesers te
dien en 'n positiewe bydrae te lewer; en
(3) Mnr Redcliffe gelukwens met sy weldeurdagte besluit.
(Translation of Afrikaans notice of motion follows.)
[Mr C H F GREYLING: Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the New NP:
That the House -
(1) notes a media statement issued today by Mr Charles Redcliffe MP, in which he states that he, the expected crossover legislation not withstanding, remains a member of the New NP and wants to serve his term in the New NP up to the next elections and thereafter;
(2) further notes the reasons for his decision, namely -
(a) the honourable manner in which the New NP leader, Marthinus van
Schalkwyk, acted towards him and honoured his agreement;
(b) the total lack of leadership in the DP/DA, especially with
regard to their conduct towards the members in the KwaZulu
Natal legislature and councillors in the Western Cape wanting
to cross over; and
(c) that the New NP is the best home for him from which to serve
his voters and make a positive contribution; and
(3) congratulates Mr Redcliffe on his well-considered decision.] [Applause.]
Mr D G MKONO: Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the UDM:
That the House -
(1) notes that the UDM yesterday won two by-elections against the ANC in the KSD Municipality, and that this therefore remains the only municipality in the Eastern Cape that is controlled by the opposition;
(2) further notes that the UDM scored this significant victory in the ANC’s heartland, despite various dirty trick campaigns and the deployment of senior ANC leaders to the area;
(3) acknowledges that these first by-elections after the floor-crossing period underscore the UDM’s warning to the ANC that the voters will have the last say, a fact that is further emphasised by the 300 ANC branch members from Engcobo who recently joined the UDM;
(4) recognises that this confirms that the UDM is taking support away from the ANC, whose service delivery record and opportunistic politics of expediency disgust the voters; and
(5) thanks the voters for giving the UDM a renewed mandate. [Time expired.] [Applause.]
Ms J CHALMERS: Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the ANC:
That the House -
(1) notes that the focus theme of this month is the rights of the child;
(2) further notes that the Department of Social Development is making proposals which will assist in reducing the number of children awaiting trial in adult facilities and that these proposals entail -
(a) an expansion of diversion programmes and community-based house
arrest programmes;
(b) increasing the number of secure care facilities and one-stop
justice centres; and
(c) the prioritisation of children's cases in court, the improvement
of legal representation for children and probation services;
(3) believes that these proposals will facilitate rehabilitation of children who transgress the law; and
(4) welcomes the proposals made by the department, as these will contribute to bringing down the levels of crime.
[Applause.]
Rev K R J MESHOE: Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the ACDP:
That the House -
(1) strongly condemns the cowardly acts of terrorism committed in Gauteng in the early hours of Wednesday morning, when a series of bombs were detonated;
(2) believes that anyone who preys on our defenceless civilian population in such a manner should be dealt with swiftly and most severely;
(3) further believes that acts of terrorism that lead to the loss of innocent life deserve the death sentence;
(4) extends our condolences to the families of the deceased and wishes a speedy recovery to all those injured in the blasts;
(5) calls on the police to leave no stone unturned in their search for the perpetrators of the bombings;
(6) further calls upon Government to -
(a) reinstate the death penalty in South Africa as a matter of
urgency; and (7) appeals to the courts to ensure that the maximum penalty be handed
down on the criminals, and that they will not have access to bail or
parole.
Dr M S MOGOBA: Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the PAC:
That the House -
(1) wishes to congratulate Pasma students at the University of Pretoria for winning five seats on the SRC, despite limited financial resources;
(2) observes that this victory represents a complete turnaround for a university that at one time was lily white, and even tarred lecturers who dared to suggest that blacks had a place in the sun;
(3) observes further that PAC policy is well-received, particularly by persons who are intellectually inclined and understand rational policies; and
(4) calls on the South African nation to follow the example of Pretoria University, and not the jamboree of floor crossing about which it is true to say, ``the more things change, the more they remain the same’’.
Mr E M SIGWELA: Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the ANC:
That the House -
(1) notes that former President Nelson Mandela received the International Lenin Peace Prize from the Russian Embassy on 28 October 2002;
(2) further notes that this peace prize acknowledges former President Mandela’s contribution to the struggle of our people against the most naked racism ever experienced by the peoples of Africa, systematically codified, sanctified and ruthlessly implemented;
(3) believes that this great hero of our liberation struggle has become an icon and an inspiration for peace, justice, freedom and reconciliation throughout the world;
(4) congratulates former President Mandela on receiving this peace prize.
[Applause.]
Mr R JANKIELSOHN: Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the DP:
That the House -
(1) notes that -
(a) three ANC councillors from Dihlabeng in the Free State refused
to comply with subpoenas to appear in court on charges of fraud
after allegedly submitting false claims for transport expenses;
(b) warrants have now been issued for their arrests; and
(c) this is causing a great deal of damage to the municipality and
the Dihlabeng council; and
(2) calls on the ANC to heed the DA’s calls to get rid of corrupt politicians and, should their organisation have any left, replace them with individuals with integrity and quality.
[Applause.]
Mr H J BEKKER: Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of he IFP:
That the House notes that -
(1) an important municipal by-election was held in Alexandra, in the Johannesburg metro, Gauteng;
(2) this election was won by the IFP against other parties like the ANC, the PAC, the DA and the UDM; and
(3) this ward was previously held by the ANC and that this council ward is now an IFP gain.
Ms S B NQODI: Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the ANC:
That the House -
(1) notes that the Department of Social Development has successfully piloted the Phandulwazi Life Skills Centre in King William’s Town;
(2) further notes that -
(a) the centre's adolescent development programme, the ADP, has
achieved a success rate of approximately 80% in integrating
children and youth in communties and as such diverting them from
the criminal justice system; and
(b) this model has been replicated in the Eastern Cape, North West
and the Northern Cape, and that it revives cultural values and
addresses social challenges experienced by children and young
people, such as substance abuse and breaking up of families;
(3) believes that these initiatives provide a framework for children and youth who transgress the law to be reintegrated into society; and
(4) welcomes the initiatives of the Department of Social Development.
[Applause.] Mev M E OLCKERS: Voorsitter, hiermee gee ek kennis dat ek, namens die Nuwe NP, op die volgende sittingsdag van die Huis sal voorstel:
Dat die Huis -
(1) kennis neem dat -
(a) die Absa-bank aangewys is as die beste maatskappy om voor te
werk;
(b) Absa se finansiële dienste ook met die louere weggestap het; en
(c) dat Absa hierdie onderskeie toekennings behaal het in 'n
kompetisie deur Deloitte & Touche;
(2) Absa gelukwens met hierdie toekennings; en
(3) glo dat hierdie prestasie behaal is deur lojaliteit, toewyding en harde werk en dat dit ‘n groot bydrae lewer tot goeie dienslewering aan die publiek. Geluk, Absa. [Applous.] (Translation of Afrikaans notice of motion follows.)
[Mrs M E OLCKERS: Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day I shall move on behalf of the New NP:
That the House -
(1) notes that -
(a) Absa Bank was identified as the best company to work for;
(b) the financial services of Absa also gained the laurels; and
(c) that Absa received these various awards in a competition held
by Deloitte and Touche;
(2) congratulates Absa on these awards; and
(3) believes that this achievement was realised through loyalty, dedication and hard work, and that it makes a major contribution to good service delivery to the public.
Congratulations, Absa. [Applause.]]
The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order!
Prof L M MBADI: Mr Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the UDM:
That the House -
(1) notes that South African children are recognised in the Bill of Rights as a specific group deserving of certain fundamental rights, which confirms our country’s commitment to the future leaders of our democracy;
(2) expresses its dismay that, despite great strides that have been taken in the past eight years, children continue to bear the brunt of crime, poverty, hunger and disease;
(3) commits itself to continuously campaigning for the improvement of the lives of all South African children;
(4) calls upon the Government and all South Africans to celebrate National Children’s Day on 2 November 2002 by reaching out to, and assisting in whatever way possible, the disadvantaged and suffering children in their cities, towns and villages.
TOURISTS KILLED WHEN TOUR BUS OVERTURNED
(Draft Resolution)
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Chairperson, I move without notice:
That the House -
(1) notes that ten tourists were killed and nine others seriously
injured when their luxury tour bus overturned on a road between
Piet Retief and Pongola in Mpumalanga;
(2) expresses its sincere condolences to the governments and the
people of Britain and Canada; and
(3) wishes the injured speedy recovery.
Agreed to.
WELL-WISHES TO ALL HINDUS ON DEEPAVALI
(Draft Resolution)
Mr M J ELLIS: Chairperson, I move without notice:
That the House -
(1) wishes all Hindus well on the occasion of Deepavali, which takes
place on Monday, 4 November 2002; and
(2) expresses the hope that this day will be one of happiness and
peace for all who celebrate it.
Agreed to.
WELL-WISHES TO ALL MUSLIMS DURING THE MONTH OF RAMADAAN
(Draft Resolution)
Mr C T FROLICK: Chairperson, I move without notice:
That the House -
(1) notes that adherents of the Muslim faith will, with the sighting
of the new moon early next week, commence fasting during the
glorious month of Ramadan;
(2) expresses the hope that the discipline, the humility, the noble
concept of caring for fellow beings and the realisation of the
plight of the poor and hungry during this glorious month be with
all for the duration of the ensuing year until Ramadan 2003; and
(3) wishes all Muslims well over the fast, that they may emerge
after the fasting invigorated and committed to continue playing
their vital role in building our nation and our country.
Agreed to.
ILLEGAL MARRAIGES OF FOREIGNERS
(Draft Resolution)
Miss S RAJBALLY: Chairperson, I move without notice:
That the House -
(1) notes the illegal marriage of foreigners to local residents who are oblivious of this union, to gain South African citizenship;
(2) takes note of this document in my hand, which is proof of one such incident in which a South African female became a victim of such circumstances by marrying a foreigner that she has never met, the marriage having been registered in a different town, namely Pretoria;
(3) calls on the Minister of Home Affairs to -
(a) urgently look into this matter and to bring to book the
person or persons concerned; and
(b) ensure that this illegal practice is curtailed immediately
as many others may be affected unknowingly by this.
Agreed to.
CRICKET QUOTAS
(Statement)
The MINISTER OF SPORT AND RECREATION: Chairperson, Cabinet colleagues, and hon members, in the statement to the National Assembly today, I will be dealing specifically with a report submitted to me by a committee of inquiry that I appointed on 18 July to investigate the progress with regard to the transformation of cricket throughout the country. Hon members will be aware that the United Cricket Board of South Africa decided, at the National Consideration Conference held at Kievits Kroon on 7 July, to scrap transformation quotas at the level of national and senior provincial teams.
This unleashed major debates within the broader SA sports movement and in the media. The decision was in sharp contrast to a recommendation from the UCB’s own transformation monitoring committee, that, as recently as February 2002, had recommended that the quota system for both provincial and national teams should be increased. It was also contrary to the decision of the UCB council to review the quota system only after the 2003 World Cup.
I was not convinced that the UCB’s decision to scrap its most effective tool to ensure transformation was the correct one. And I subsequently decided to appoint a committee of inquiry to test the validity of the claim made by the UCB. Their president Adv Percy Sonn was quoted at the time saying that: “We have seen enough real change to be confident that these sides could be selected on merit, and we have enough quality players of colour that their presence in these senior teams no longer needs to be dictated by a quota system.” Ironically, it was also Adv Sonn of the UCB who conceded at a meeting that he had not studied the reports that led to this decision being taken.
I engaged the UCB through both correspondence and meetings on the matter, culminating in a rather tense meeting attended by executive members of the UCB. I made it very clear at this meeting that I was not prepared to change the terms of reference or the composition of the committee of inquiry.
It was also here that I experienced first-hand perception that the president of the UCB appears to be a law unto himself, as well as the perception that he displays a negative attitude. At the meeting, he insisted that he would be the sole speaker for the UCB and that his entire executive committee members would not contribute to the meeting.
Let me also use this opportunity to point out that there exists a general perception that UCBSA, under the current leadership of Adv Sonn, is sliding unconsciously into a situation where they are not sufficiently aware of nor receptive enough to the issues on the ground, especially in historically disadvantaged areas and clubs.
The committee of inquiry commenced its work on 7 August with clearly defined terms of reference. However, the UCB voiced a public view that the inquiry, before it started, was flawed and was tainted with bias and subjectivity. In a clear attack on the committee, the UCB stated that members of the public and themselves would view that report emanating from the inquiry with circumspection and cynicism.
I have now taken receipt of the report and read it and invited the UCB to discuss both its release and its findings with Government. It is very unfortunate that, again, the president of the UCB has indicated that he has not studied the contents of the report. But he is on public record as having allegedly stated that he does not care what is in the report, and that the UCB’s decision will stand.
It is my contention that South Africans of all persuasions need to confront the issue of transformation in sport with open minds. We cannot be silent on the issue, no matter what views we hold. We cannot be defensive, nor can we perpetuate the culture of silence that pervades national federations on the issue of transformation. We owe it to ourselves, to our players, and we owe it to our spectators and to the country to be bold in our approach to social transformation, including transformation in sport.
Transformation, as a process, refers to overall national and provincial politics and processes within which change in sport is unfolding. Therefore transformation in sport takes place within the overall framework of ongoing political change in our country, and it is guided by the policies of Government.
The UCBSA does not operate outside of this political change, nor does it operate in a vacuum. We concede that it is an association of volunteers, but they are South African volunteers. The chief executive officer of the UCB is correct when he says that his organisation is in charge of running cricket. Very correct. His reported comments about not being dictated to are not dissimilar to the views of those who ran apartheid sport, and he knows what happened to them and their apartheid sport.
Transformation has not been imposed from the top on the sports federations. They have given their complete agreement and buy-in as to the absolute necessity of the process. Very early in the life of the new democracy, all the major sports federations struck a social accord of good faith with the Government that they would pursue a transformation agenda, the details and modalities of which would be determined by the conditions and demands of each sporting code and federation.
At its heart, transformation is about change. It involves personal, institutional, attitudinal and paradigmal change. It is not about embracing change for the sake of it. It is not about simply substituting white faces with black faces. Although there are numerous examples of work process, this process has indeed been reduced to this. Rather, transformation is a conscious, deliberate, planned and goal-directed process of fundamentally restructuring the very conditions that have, in the past, led to the deliberate exclusion of the majority of our people from meaningful participation in sport. As such, transformation has its core issues, such as the demographic representativity of teams, the equitable allocation of resources to historically excluded communities and the role of sport in building a new patriotism. Transformation also brings with it uncertainty, a potential loss of privilege, power and authority, and it brings with it a threat to the old way of doing things.
There are many stories in the sports world of black players not being given the same chances to prove themselves as their white counterparts. Similarly, there are accounts of players being labelled quota players based on their skin colour. These and other examples, that I will refer to, point to the fact that a key element of transformation has to do with changes in attitude by those who are at the coalface of transformation.
There are many people in sport who have been unable to come to terms with the demands of the new political realities, and at some point, those people will have to be left behind in the interest of transformation as a whole. The decision taken by the UCB to do away the quota system is a clear indication that the battle for transformation is ongoing, and very very far from over. So too the revelations by the Springbok great, Chester Williams, in his biography released this week. Chester is at pains in this book to point out that, after 10 years of playing rugby in South Africa, he has realised what it means to be black in this country. He argues that his story is not one of an underprivileged coloured boy who made it good. It is of a rugby player, a young boy, who dreamed of playing for his country once he had had a taste of rugby. All he ever wanted was to be a Springbok player. He says all he ever was in South Africa during his tenure was a black rugby player.
As indicated by some cricket players, they hate the term `quota player’ as much as everyone else. Chester argues that it is a negative one, which throughout his playing days was used exclusively to identify black players in any South African team. Like so many today, Chester states that he confused the necessity and the effectiveness of the quota system with the word quota. It led him to denounce the quota system without ever appreciating the role it had played in South African sport. This book by Chester, a biography of courage, has created a storm in the media in South Africa, but the dividing line, generally, was very very clear. Black players supported the views of Chester Williams, while others were defensive about Chester’s claims.
I would like to present to hon members what Chester says on the quota system. I quote him:
Quotas were brought in because of lack of opportunity for black players and since the introduction at senior level, they have had positive results. I realise now that quotas are necessary in South African rugby. Without the quota system, there would still be limited opportunities for black players. Black players for the next few years will have to learn to deal with this and will have to focus on the positive aspect that they now have a chance to show what good rugby players they are. If it was not for the quota system at provincial level, the likes of Breyten Paulse, Bolla Conradie, Quentin Davids, Conrad Jantjes, Adrian Jacobs, Ricardo Laubscher and Deon Kayser would not have been given sufficient exposure to prove their worth as rugby players. And what good rugby players they are. The quota system gave them a chance and that is more than thousands of black players had for more than hundred years in South African rugby.
This comes from a player who suffered under the indignity of being labelled by other players and the media.
Another player says that now is not the right time to scrap quotas, because in our locations and our villages, things are still the same. A national player said that. The second one says that he thinks the quota system is very important for those who are coming through now, and he thinks that it is very important that the quota system stays in for much longer. That is a provincial player saying that. Another provincial player says that he thinks there would not be any opportunity for guys coming through without the quota system. The quota system has never been the creation of this Government. On the contrary, national federations themselves decided that the quota system was the best mechanism to achieve transformation targets. It is widely argued that the issue of quota systems should be understood as being a transformation strategy and employed to expedite and achieve a merit-based demographic representation in sport.
I would like to extend a hand to the UCB and all those who are still resisting transformation, even those sitting on our lefthand side who resist transformation and everything that we do, to come forward and discuss their concerns, in the best interest of all sport in the country. [Interjections.] If we do not do this, 10 years from now, as Chester Williams has discovered, we will come back and say that sport still remains untransformed.
In studying the report, which was given to me by the committee that I appointed, there are more important points to note. The UCB’s own transformation monitoring committee under Professor André Odendaal never recommended to the UCB to scrap the quota system. On the contrary, they recommended that quotas be increased in both national and provincial teams. The committee also had evidence from a broad spectrum of people that there was a lack of consultation which preceded the conference held at Kievits Kroon. It was the view of most of the interviewees that they were surprised to learn of the decision of the UCB to scrap the quota system, and that it was necessary to have canvassed the intended beneficiaries of the UCB’s transformation programme.
Ironically, a member of the Transformation Monitoring Committee reported that we are living in a country where prejudices still exist. He argues that it is therefore unreasonable to place the future of black players on the goodwill of white administrators. In this regard, nine out of 11 provincial coaches in our country are white. [Interjections.] Nine of the 11 provincial captains are white. Two of them are black; one is Nixon McLean of KwaZulu-Natal who is a West-Indian player. The other is Jimmy Adams, also a West-Indian player, from the Free State. I have no problem against those players; they are wonderful players. But should we not breed our own captains?
The recommendations are in front of hon members, and this committee recommends that the UCB’s decision of scrapping transformation quotas at the level of national teams was taken without any consultation and that this was based on inadequate assessment and consideration. [Interjections.] The committee recommends that the UCB, as a matter of urgency and prior to the World Cup, which is coming next year which we support fully - this Government has put a lot of work into that - put in place the necessary process to ensure that the conference’s resolution is looked at or recinded. Furthermore, the committee also recommends that within the provinces where transformation has been the slowest, including Free State, Gauteng, Northern Province, and provinces like Mpumalanga, where there are no teams at all, the UCB should focus on these provinces to accelerate transformation, and that the UCB must also create a structure through which focus should be placed on the development of players.
I have spoken about the Cricket World Cup which is coming and that all of us support it. We hope that, in the long run, our team will be the winning team, but the UCB must also give expression to its undertaking that our World Cup team will include no fewer than five or six black players. [Interjections.] Yes, those members want us to go around the bend on this thing.
I wish to invite all South Africans to make use of the opportunity to submit written views on the report to myself. I am going to release it now at 15h30 to all provincial federations and to everyone who participated. I do believe that there is a widespread acceptance in the provinces that we cannot have a situation like the one which happened in KwaZulu-Natal recently where the president of the province was held to ransom under threat of resignation by his captain Dale Benkenstein, that if he dared to include the young talented Goolam Bodi in the provincial team, he would resign. [Interjections.] Nor can we have a situation where provinces are excluded from the consultative process that directly affect them. I am particularly concerned about the situation in the Eastern Province where the UCB stepped in as a result of a variety of problems to try and sort out the differences within that province. I believe a report has been finalised on this. In the spirit of transparency, I would like to invite the UCB to make the Eastern Province report available to everybody, including Government.
In conclusion, my special thanks go to Ruth Bhengu and the committee for the work that they have put in and their co-operation on this. I would also like special thanks to go to Mr John Smith, the chairperson of the committee, who is sitting over there. He is a lawyer from East London. I do realise that John worked very hard under tremendous pressure. But together with his team, including Ms Kedi Tshoma, Dr Mtutuzeli Nyoka, Dr Willie Basson and Greg Fredericks, he has delivered a report that will contribute significantly to the unfolding processes of transformation, not only in cricket, but in all sports in our country.
I am putting these here so that when the opposition, which does not want to see this kind of transformation, throws bouncers - I have a helmet for those bouncers. [Interjections.] I have a vampire bat here to hit them for a six. And, in any case, they cannot bowl. They do not know cricket. [Applause.]
Adv P S SWART: Chairperson, the UCB is one of the flagships amongst sporting codes in terms of development and transformation, putting the money where the mouths are. This year alone, they allocated R134 million for development compared to the paltry R125 000 Government grant they get. I wish to tell the Minister that they are playing in a different league than his is.
After a self-funded two-year process of national transformation seminars, the UCB adopted a Transformation Charter and Pledge to the Nation at the National Vision Conference in November 1998. This had various specific 4- year targets which, at that conference, were applauded by all, ANC included. In July this year, they took stock. Preparation for this consultation conference included the tour of all the provinces by the CEO and the transformation consultant. A report of this was distributed to all delegates, the majority of which were black, together with the formal audit from the Transformation Monitoring Committee, of which the majority are also black.
These reports indicate that the UCB has internalised transformation, and apart from a major demographic turnabout in the composition on all administrative levels, also achieved the following player representivity: 37% on the national team; 32% on the provincial teams, exceeding the target of 44 by 50% with the achievement of 66; bowl level it is 46%: the target 44%, the achievement 100; under-19 level 51% are black players. They had a target of 66, but the achievement was 76.
Now this resulted in the conference unanimously coming to the conclusion that transformation targets have been reached, indeed exceeded, followed by the positive step of deciding to build from that by using achievements as benchmarks for the future, with further transformation through normal participation, not quotas, and development in particular.
Now, this should have been applauded and used as a positive indicator to other sporting codes, but the opposite happened. Why? Because they committed a deadly sin in sporting circles in South Africa. These decisions were made public without the interference or sanctioning thereof by the self-proclaimed ruler of all matters concerned and relating to sport. His immediate reaction? No acknowledgements, but the appointment of a task team to investigate transformation in cricket. Whatever the findings of this task team, and I have not seen the report, this was a slap in the face to people who worked hard for many years to ensure the development and transformation of cricket. The Minister, adding insult to injury, allocated a budget of almost R750 000 to fund this, compared to that R125 000. This exercise was nothing but part of the ANC’s ongoing project to impose its race-obsessed agenda on South African sport, so blind that it fails to acknowledge these wonderful achievements by the UCB, on the eve of us hosting the 2003 World Cup.
I wish to tell the Minister that there are many previously disadvantaged schools that need sport equipment for which he could have used the taxpayers’ money instead of funding his own political agenda.
To conclude, for the sake of sport, we can only hope that the ANC and the Minister will stop their constant interference in South African sport and rather acknowledge the development and transformation that does take place, which we support, whilst focusing on those that still lag behind, not the UCB.
About the report, I wished to ask the hon the Minister whether he thinks for one moment that any report by his own hand-picked commission will ever have more credibility out there in the real world than the conclusions about transformation by so many previously disadvantaged within the UCB itself after all the hard and dedicated work. Maybe his attitudes are best portrayed by his words to the CEO, Gerald Majola, at that meeting in July where the Minister accused him of being a traitor, and I quote: “I don’t want to hear excuses. I don’t give a s–t.” [Applause.]
Mr N S MIDDLETON: Chairperson and honourable comrades, let me at the outset state that during the days of the sport struggle in this country, during the apartheid era, the most famous slogan was “No normal sport in an abnormal society”. I think today we should reverse that and say that “No abnormal sport in a normal society”, because what is happening today, whether we like it or not, is that we are playing abnormal sport in a normal society. If it were not so, we would not be discussing quota systems and all that. It is for that very reason that our sport is still very abnormal.
For indeed, though we are enjoying living in a normal society as I said, we have to do something about the situation of our sport today. If only our present Government had accepted the recommendation which was submitted in 1995 by the SA Sport Council, Sacos, to the effect that isolation of sport in this country should remain until the fields were levelled up, we would not be discussing today. But, we compromised that on behalf of the players and we allowed quota systems. I believe that if isolation had remained then, we would not be talking about this. We would all be enjoying sport. I still believe, even now, that it was a wrong decision to have allowed international sport to this country under the circumstances. [Interjections.]
The hon member does not know about the ICC policy. He is just sitting there, and should not come and tell me about the ICC policy. He does not know anything about it. He should not start with me.
So I am certain that had the Government accepted this proposal, we would not be debating this, as I said. However, it is now water under the bridge. Some people are happy with the quota system, and some people are not happy with this system. Therefore, it is the right of Government, whilst there are still these two faces of people, to interfere whether the other people like it or not. [Applause.]
I believe that, in our days, we used to fight the government for interfering in sport. I know that. But, we had a right to do so because our sport was normal. But now, it’s a different reason. One can legislate, but one can never legislate for people to change their attitudes. Our sport is still run by racist people, whether we like it or not. And I speak … (Interjections.) And if it were not so, we would not be talking about this today. I can only appeal to everybody concerned today, that, for God’s sake, we should walk the road of nonracialism as we knew it then. We strived a lot and suffered a lot for this, so they should not come and spoil it at this stage, because we will not allow them to do it. [Applause.]
Mr C M MORKEL: Mr Chairperson, the history of our country is fraught with lessons in conflict resolution, which teaches us essentially that, when communication breaks down, it is a reflection of the negative attitudes of one or both parties to the conflict.
One needs to ask, in this particular instance, whether it was positive that the UCB informed the Minister at the last minute of its decision? Does it reflect a positive attitude? When the process is flawed, the outcome is bound to be flawed.
What normally does and, in this case, must pull parties together - in this conflict, it must happen urgently before next year’s Cricket World Cup - is the aggregation of the views of the shared constituencies, you and I, the people of South Africa.
The following questions beg to be asked. Did the UCB consult widely enough amongst its constituency? Were the views expressed by its constituency reflected with sufficient accuracy in its reports and its media releases from the transformation monitoring committee and the executive committee at the UCB? We need to ask: What mandate and legitimacy did the UCB have to make such an announcement? If the UCB’s consultation and decision-making processes were indeed flawed, as the commission of inquiry seems to reveal according to the Minister’s speech, then the UCB has made a mockery of an issue of such grave national importance regarding the need for the quota system that it sets back a proper and healthy debate on this issue by another 10 years.
I wish to place on record that we need to transform and that the New NP is for transformation of the imbalances of the past, but we are not happy with the quota system as a means of transformation. We need to debate this thoroughly. This debate is not being conducted in a healthy environment. [Interjections.] No, it is transformation that is needed. That objective is a shared objective. It is the means that we need to get clarity on.
There is enough common ground between the UCB, the Ministry and the parties in this House for us to agree on it. I do not think we are seeing the light here.
Perhaps that debate should not take place in this House alone, but in a focused workshop or conference where all parties in this debate can participate in a healthy manner.
Mr C T FROLICK: Chairperson and hon members, the process that had started with the composition of the task team and ended with the report, during the past week, being shoved from pillar to post at the headquarters of the UCB by individuals refusing to accept responsibility clearly illustrates the untenable situation that is being created. Indeed, a stand-off has been created between the Government and certain individuals within the UCB.
I do not doubt the integrity of the task team which the Minister appointed, because they are known as knowlegable individuals who are serving and who have served sport in the best interest of all South Africans. At the same time, I have no doubt as to the integrity of individuals still serving in the UCB, including Percy Sonn and Gerald Majola, of their commitment to transform South African cricket. It, however, must be stated that an antagonistic approach will merely lead to unnecessary conflict and to undermine the nation-building exercise.
Whilst sport bodies must remain independent, it must also satisfy Government and Parliament of their commitment to ensure that all South Africans have equal access to participate in sport at the highest level. This must translate on the part of the UCB in specific targets and strategies to ensure representivity in all national and provincial teams, since anybody involved in cricket will attest to the fact that there is indeed current underrepresentation in certain regions.
Sport is a national asset and it requires intervention at the right stage. It is therefore vital for the Minister to remain true to his undertaking this afternoon, for him not to impose his will on the UCB, but to engage them. Similarly, the UCB has a moral obligation towards the nation to prove that their strategies are succeeding.
Mrs R M SOUTHGATE: Chairperson, many sportsmen and sportswomen believe that when labelled as a quota player, they are not recognised for achieving their selection through merit, skill or potential, but rather to fill up space with an inferior player or competitor. This stigma has negatively impacted the performance of many of our players as undue pressure has been placed on them to deliver, whether they are ready or not. It has also stunted and prematurely brought their sporting careers to an end.
As the ACDP, we do not believe that quotas are a good idea, but we do realise that Government is forced to pursue it. Our view is that emphasis should be placed on development at schools and clubs. We agree that transformation brings about stability and strongly call on the national and provincial federations to bring about this integration. The ACDP recognises that although room has been given for federations to change, many show their reluctance to do so. Resistance to change always brings about anarchy and we urge all federations to speed up their policies on development. These federations have a duty and obligation to the South African public who supports them financially to develop champions that would make us proud to be South Africans, irrespective of the colour of their skin.
The ACDP strongly recommends that ongoing development must take place in our schools, clubs, and organisations involved in the various sporting codes.
Mnr P J GROENEWALD: Geagte Voorsitter, die agbare Minister het nou maar eenmaal nie die vermoë om sy politiek te skei van sy verantwoordelikheid, as Minister van Sport, om in die belang van sport op te tree nie. Die VF wil baie duidelik boekstaaf dat die agbare Minister se optrede en sy vereiste dat ten minste ses swart spelers in die wêreldbeker volgende jaar moet wees - dit is wat die agbare Minister self gesê het; ek kan lees en ek het geluister- tot die nadeel van sport is, en die agbare Minister is besig om sport te politiseer.
Die VF se standpunt is dat meriete moet geld, want dan het jy die beste mense wat die sport beoefen. Die VF is ook ten gunste van transformasie, maar ek wil vandag vir die Minister sê: begin transformasie op die regte vlak, naamlik die laagste vlak. As die Minister krieket wil bevorder, begin om skole krieket behoorlik te bevorder en te transformeer. Ek wil vandag vir die Minister sê: sportontwikkeling is ‘n proses. Dit is ‘n proses waardeur dit moet gaan; daar is nie ‘n kitsoplossing nie. As die Minister aandag gee aan die proses, verseker ek hom dat hy die beste sportmanne gaan kry. Die Minister is aan die mense van Suid-Afrika verskuldig om die beste mense daar te kry. [Tyd verstreke.].[Tussenwerpsels.]. (Translation of Afrikaans speech follows).
[Mr P J GROENEWALD: Hon Chairperson, the hon Minister just simply does not have the ability to separate his politics from his responsibility as Minister of Sport in order to act in the interest of sport. The FF wants to state very clearly for the record that the hon Minister’s behaviour and his prerequisite that at least six black players should be in the world cup next year - that is what the hon Minister said himself; I can read and I have listened - will be to the detriment of sport and the hon Minister is busy politicising sport.
The position of the FF is that merit should apply, because then you have the best people that take part in the sport. The FF is also in favour of transformation, but today I want to say to the Minister: Start with transformation at the correct level, namely the lowest level. If the Minister wants to promote cricket, he must start to properly promote and transform school cricket. Today I want to say to the Minister: Sport development is a process. It is a process that has to be gone through; there is not a magic solution. If the Minister gives attention to the process, then I assure him that he will get the best sportsmen. The Minister owes it to the people of South Africa to obtain the best people. [Time expired.] [Interjections.] The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! Hon members can we have some order in the House.
Ms S RAJBALLY: The cricket quota system is quite intricate to draw any conclusions on. There are so many aspects to take into consideration.
It is by all means true that the South African cricket team is exactly that, South African, and thereby should reflect a representation of the South African people. Many say that it is predominantly white in content and that we need much more people of colour incorporated. The MF celebrates the fact that we are rich in talent, and is confident that as this branches from one ethnic group to the next, it would enable us such representation.
However, reality is that it is not all about representation. Cricket is a sport, a game and the recruiting of members should be based on merits and proficient skills. At the end of the day, every member of the cricket team is of South African nationality. The MF expresses that it would be nice to see more people of colour in the cricket team.
Ms N R NTSHULANA-BHENGU: Chairperson, I rise to welcome the report of the ministerial committee of inquiry into transformation in cricket. We, as the ANC, commend the committee members for their efforts at investigating and compiling this report. We also commend the Minister for setting up this committee of inquiry.
The United Cricket Board of SA adopted the transformation charter at its historic National Vision Conference held in Johannesburg on 13-15 November
- This document, which emphasises redress, representivity and development amongst its 10 strategic thrusts, made cricket a role-player in the broader national process of change and democratisation. We applauded the boldness of cricket in embracing the fundamental aims of redress and representivity, as well as the need for a new paradigm.
Quotas in cricket were introduced to ensure that cricket moved towards meeting its transformation objectives of being representative at all levels and in all spheres of the game. Sadly, not everyone was happy with this progress made in integrating cricket in particular and sport in general. The same elements were the first to cheer when the United Cricket Board of SA announced its unfortunate decision to scrap the quota system. These elements found useful allies in certain political parties whose preoccupation is grabbing newspaper headlines.
To these parties, the mere mention of the word ``transformation’’ stops them from thinking and triggers the computer programme in their minds to make the kind of noise we are used to hearing from them. We have no words for these parties other than to say that they would not have chosen a better spokesperson than Louis Luyt, of the infamous Struggle Rugby: A Sport in Crisis. We as the ANC will continue to pursue the agenda of social transformation, and we encourage cricket to continue with its transformation agenda. Recent incidents in sport indicate that those opposed to transformation and unity in sport will stop at nothing to advance their selfish agenda of making sport, especially cricket, the preserve of the minority. Amongst these incidents is the one in KwaZulu-Natal in which two white players allegedly threatened to resign if a fellow black player was selected for a Dolphins side. Chester Williams, a Springbok rugby star, claims in his recent book that he has had to endure some racism in the Springbok game from fellow players. These incidents indicate that it is necessary to maintain a system which allows the national leaders of the UCB to intervene so as to ensure that cricket is not retarded in the process of integration and building nonracialism.
We are concerned that the process of arriving at this far-reaching decision to scrap the quota system was flawed because, as this report states, not all legitimate stakeholders in cricket were consulted. The fact that the decision was reached using inadequate information, as the report says, is another cause of concern. We also note that not enough was done to take cricket to some previously disadvantaged areas. Yet, in some of these areas, where there is a tradition of cricket, there are not enough cricket clubs. We also propose that cricket acts on the recommendations of the ministerial committee of inquiry.
In conclusion, we would like to state that the statement by the UCB CEO, Gerald Majola, in which he says that cricket will not be dictated to by outside bodies, is insensitive and does not contribute to the need for the co-operation that we all want. The statement flies in the face of efforts at transparency and the requirement for consultation. The UCB must run its affairs in the context of the government transformation programme. [Applause.]
THE ROLE OF PARLIAMENT IN ALLEVIATING POVERTY
(Subject for Discussion)
The SPEAKER: Chairperson and hon members, I do not intend today to describe the existence or extent of poverty in South Africa. I think that is self- evident. I wish to focus rather on what we can do and what we are going to do to address the scourge of poverty that affects this nation.
The focus needs to be on us, the representatives elected by voters - who are largely those who live in poverty - as well as on this institution of Parliament. Too often our debates here are about what someone else should do or has not done, or about laying blame for past action and failures or current predilections or omissions.
This Parliament is an extremely powerful one, with authority and powers entrenched in the Constitution, yet we are the ones who have imposed limits on what we can and cannot do. We define our functions in a manner that either explicitly excludes certain action or by implication inhibits Parliament and what Parliament does. We limit ourselves to debating policies presented to us and engaging in monitoring or oversight, over expenditure or the manner and degree of implementation after the event. In this way some only, of course, applaud and others only criticise. In this way, we remain outside the process, acting mainly as observers, praise singers, critics, auditors and coroners, rather than the activists that we have been.
The very title of this debate already sets limits and here I plead guilty. The alleviation of poverty can only be a first step in what must be our objective, namely the eradication of poverty towards which policy must be directed, even as we may provide some improvements in the daily lives of the population.
To an extent, we can alleviate poverty by higher welfare payments and grants and measures such as price control and subsidies, as has been done. Inevitably, this will always be limited by existing resources and provide no long-term solutions. Eradication will require sustainable development, as the decisions and targets set at the World Summit on Sustainable Development reveal. This will involve a range of programmes: health, sanitation, education, skilling, employment, technology, communications, etc. Each one of us can add to this list or pick one aspect. Taken together, what is indicated is integrated policies and programmes that incorporate all of these as they affect particular situations and are applied as a coherent whole to contribute to the eradication of poverty.
The question for Parliament is: To what extent has the National Assembly organised itself to look at policy in this integrated way, whether in the making, consideration, implementation or evaluation; and does our oversight take into account the integration of policy and expenditure? To what extent have we organised our committees to function across government departments? Should we perhaps be reorganising committees? Should Parliament and the Government not consider whether the current division of departmental portfolios is appropriate and whether integration should simply be a joint consideration that the clustering system implies, or a more radical rethink and restructuring? In announcing the measures to address high food prices, the Cabinet indicated the number of departments that would need to be involved. What did we do as Parliament? Have our committees considered the measures? And here, should we not have had reports to inform this debate and to consider what we could do? And here I should say - and I do not want applause from the left - that I did receive a request from the DP for a debate on the high prices and suggested instead that we have this broader debate on what Parliament should do. [Applause.]
The Cabinet statement refers to the need for partnerships and action at community level. When this term ends on 14 November, we need to participate in ensuring that the ameliorative measures have the desired effect.
The success of policies is dependent on the extent and accuracy of the information base. Members of Parliament are uniquely placed to inform policy-making and to make significant inputs into its impact as well as measuring the degree of implementation. The rationale for a more participatory form of democracy and an ongoing dialogue between Government and people is grounded in the view that where people are not involved in the decisions that affect their lives, social policies and political interventions will fail. Equally, the best information on the needs of the poor, on whether policies and programmes are reaching the targets, comes from the poor themselves.
In most systems, certain people or interests have greater access to power and decision-making than others. Patterns of access tend to reflect the socioeconomic landscape and the inequalities of society. If Parliament is to change these socioeconomic inequalities, we need to proactively arrange for accessing those without resources and listening to them.
It is relatively straightforward to identify where the inequalities in South Africa lie and which groups are most vulnerable to poverty. It is perhaps less easy to appreciate that this relates to potential inequalities in public participation and the actions by Parliament to deal with them. The aim of public participation must be to provide poor people with the opportunity to make their circumstances known and to express their needs and grievances and offer their own solutions and priorities.
Clearly then, Parliament has to evaluate the programmes we have and consider how we are going to ensure that the views of the poorest of the poor and their needs are incorporated into policy-making, into legislation and into implementation, and that their views are sought in accessing, implementation and impact. So it is not enough to continue to conduct public hearings as we do now. We need to rethink and find innovative ways to deal with public participation.
We also need to look at ways of strengthening civil society, and I refer here not only to NGOs, but more importantly to community-based organisations, as well as informal associations of the homeless, youth, women, workers, the disabled, rural people’s movements, etc. And on an informed basis we need to consider and recommend ways of providing more public resources to such representative organisations. In addition, MPs are a major source of information on the impact of government programmes and the manner and effectiveness of implementation.
This information need not be confined within political parties and used to further their narrow interests. It should be brought here to inform debates. Question time provides us with an opportunity to draw the attention of Ministers to local impacts and problems. But do we use Questions that way or are they simply an occasion for party combat and to use information for particular advantage? Do we try to trip up a Minister or provide a platform? Could we not draw the attention of members of the executive to problems and difficulties that we find and try and seek solutions for them?
Legislators can and should go beyond debating policy and the technicalities of legislation. Committees could assist in identifying potential problems of implementation when policies and programmes are first mooted, and not only conduct inquests or postmortems after they arise and, with hindsight, we can say that Parliament should have done so before the maintenance legislation was finalised or at the same time. And we may well have prevented the two-year difficulty that has been engaged in in trying to implement good legislation.
Similarly, committees could, and in our constituencies, we could systematically visit clinics, schools, look at transport and engage with local communities in ensuring that integrated development programmes are produced and also feed their collective experience back to the Assembly to assist in providing remedy or relief.
If the Whippery can be persuaded to co-operate across party lines - and I must say I put that forward only as an occasional measure - and if we could agree that at a particular time all MPs will visit pension payout points or hospitals or some other facility to identify systemic problems and come back to debate possible improvements and solutions, we can make a considerable impact and provide a basis for ministerial or departmental intervention.
I understand the hon Ellis and Jeffery have already planned such co- ordinated action during the forthcoming recess and we can look forward to their joint report when we come back. I have been asked, on their behalf, to request other MPs to join their initiative. I see very puzzled looks, but I assure members this is actually something they have been planning.
The activities I have indicated require a legislature transformed to meet the needs of a developing country in Africa, within a constitutional framework that is amongst the most enlightened and progressive. I am aware that the proactive involvement of Parliament that I suggest requires some rethinking and a broadening of the role of Parliament. It may require political courage, but it does not require a change in the Constitution, only in our mind-sets. Indeed, I suggest that we would fail in our constitutional obligations if we do not intervene in the direction suggested, though not necessarily in the specific activities that have been proposed. It is with such interventions as participants rather than observers, monitors, auditors and coroners that Parliament can play a meaningful role and contribute to the eradication of poverty in our society.
If Parliament only becomes an actor after the event, then we will not succeed in eradicating poverty for many decades and will fall short of the goals and the targets that we have set for ourselves, and we may end up conducting oversight to establish the reasons for failure rather than to contribute to success in the eradication of this national scourge upon us. [Applause.]
The MINISTER FOR AGRICULTURE AND LAND AFFAIRS: Mr Chairperson, Madam Speaker and hon members, if we accept that poverty is one of the biggest threats to our young democracy, and that Parliament is one of the greatest expressions of our democracy, then it follows that members of Parliament and the very institution they represent are key players in the fight against poverty, as it threatens our very existence. Furthermore, if we are firm in our belief that poverty eradication is a noble goal, we have to realise that it is not so easy to achieve immediately.
However, we acknowledge that what we can do now, is to work towards the alleviation of poverty. We immediately move away from a situation of being helpless, as these members, and start to find meaning in the work that we do on a daily basis through our interventions and committee meetings, as well as in our constituency work. I speak here also as a member of parliament, even though I am in the executive. I recognise that, as parliamentarians, we are uniquely placed to contribute significantly in the fight against poverty. As the overseers of Government and the developers of the laws that govern our country, we can influence the direction of policy towards the fight against poverty.
The Speaker has raised a very important issue in her intervention on whether we do this after the fact and not at the point at which policy is developed. I would actually say that we are on both sides of it, because as activists and members of our political parties, we are able to influence policy development to ensure that those who are governing can be able to take interest in issues that we raise on policy matters. However, we also have another chance. When we sit here as members of Parliament to oversee whether those policies are, indeed, what we would like for our country, we are also able to make another intervention. Maybe we will always have to do both, but maybe, more importantly, we will have to do so at the initial phase.
Parliament, through its structures such as portfolio and select committees, offers us an opportunity to inform the electorate about policies that affect them, as well as to receive their inputs on whether such policies actually improve their situation for the better. As members of Parliament, though not directly elected through a constituency-based electoral system, we have created opportunities for interaction with this electorate through the constituency offices that we have throughout our country. The question that we need to ask ourselves is probably whether we do our constituency work in the manner that assists those communities to be in touch with what we do in this House, or whether we take some of those constituency weeks as part of our additional holidays with the family. I know that that is also important. The challenge, however, that we also face is to evaluate whether or not the current policies and programmes, as well as the legislation that we have passed in this House, are adequate in helping us to fight poverty.
The other question that I think needs to be deliberated on in this debate is a question that the Speaker has already highlighted in her input, regarding whether or not through the way we are structured as this Parliament we are able to ensure that we can bring the issues of our communities to this House and make an impact in the manner in which we interact both with the executive and also with other policy-makers, to ensure that what they do has an impact on those we serve.
My own view is that, at a policy level, I can say with certainty that we have been able to make sound and adequate policies in dealing with the challenge of poverty. A general evaluation of the success of the Reconstruction and Development Programme, which is a broad policy of this Government and this Parliament, will indicate that indeed we have made some impact. The delivery of water and access to housing, as well as land reforms and many others are but an indication of how far we have moved in attempting to deal with the challenge of poverty in our country. However, we would all agree that there is still more that we need to do to ensure that, at the implementation level, we can deal with the challenges that we continue to face.
In my view this Parliament, through its committees, has been able in some way to ensure that they bring to the executive some of the concerns that arise at the implementation level of our policies, sometimes to indicate existing areas of capacity or incapacity and inexperience. As the executive, when we interact and relook our policies and how we implement them, we are therefore guided by the views that come from this Parliament.
I also want to say to the Speaker and hon members that our committee processes, particularly when it comes to the legislative processes as well as the review of the Budget, are able to bring closer to home the challenges our electorate is faced with, and they are also able to make an impact on the direction that we may need to take.
However, who has access to this Parliament? If we talk about participatory democracy, one of the things we would accept is that there is a yes and no answer to this question. The majority of those who have resources are able to fly to Cape Town and interact with us and tell us what they want and what they do not want. But the majority of those who are poor do not have access to this House. Mindful of this challenge, our Speaker and the members of this Parliament, including myself, have realised that it is important to have interaction with the communities at the point at which they are. The majority of the portfolio committees have visited a number of provinces and regions to get to know the views of the electorate on particular legislation. But again, because of limited resources, we are not able to reach each and every individual in our country.
In this House we have also provided the electronic medium of television. We are able to interact and ensure that our people at least can hear what we say here and see whether we represent them fairly or not. However, we might need to improve at that level. The majority of South Africans do not yet have access to television. Is not possible to have a slot on the radio and perhaps a write-up, or a parliamentary paper, which could be used as a medium to interact with our constituencies so that they can evaluate for themselves whether what we are doing here is, indeed, what they have asked us to do?
At government level, in order to address the same problem, we started an outreach programme known as Imbizo, to close the gap between us and the electorate so that they can also hear at firsthand if what we do does indeed affect our communities positively. I want to agree with the Speaker that, as members of Parliament, we remain activists and that our work does not just end in these corridors of Parliament or in the committees, but that we also need to ensure that we become part and parcel of our communities through our experience and knowledge, to ensure that we participate in those civil structures in order to change the circumstances of our people for the better.
I must say that some members of Parliament have indeed been able to do so, but many will still have to do so, so that we do not just become armchair politicians who sit here being critical, saying this has not been done to deal with poverty. We ourselves must do something to change the circumstances for the better. We have a challenge of dealing with poverty in our communities, not only today or maybe as an intervention in the immediate term. In order to redress the legacy of our past, we will have to be there most of the time, so that when we come to this Parliament, we can be proud that each one of us as a person has done something to change the lives of our people. [Applause.]
Mrs B N SONO: Mr Chairperson and hon members, I could not agree with the Speaker more, but I wish to tell her that the alleviation of poverty is the task of the Government and the executive, not of Parliament. Parliament’s job is to hold the executive to account. We as legislators have to see to it that the Government takes steps to alleviate poverty. When the Government fails, as it has done, it is Parliament’s task to tell the Government and also to tell the people that the Government has failed.
If passing laws and enacting legislation could create employment, then South Africa would have full employment, not the many millions of unemployed, who are the reality of a nation which, in many areas and places, is not working. This Parliament has passed many, many laws, but instead of creating jobs and enhancing growth, they have actually done the reverse of their intended and stated aims. The reality is that legislation cannot create a booming economy and regulations which go against the grain of a market economy often destroy jobs better and faster than they know.
Employers and entrepreneurs are the best and most enduring builders of ways out of poverty, not bureaucrats and politicians. It is a pity that the Minister of Trade and Industry is not here. We would have given him information on how entrepreneurs experience the policies of this Government.
In addition to this, however, legislators should and can play a much greater role in the realisation of the people’s rights under the Constitution and in the eradication of poverty. The role of Parliament so far has stopped at debating predetermined policy and some monitoring oversight over expenditure and implementation. The Constitution demands that we play an interventional role in all areas of the process.
Since 1994, public expectations have been running high. The policies of the Government have been built on relatively full employment and steadily increasing national wealth. This meant that the views and interest of labour and others are believed to weigh more heavily than they had done during apartheid in the conducting of national affairs.
Sadly, unemployment, political education and organization to meet the objectives of a more participatory democracy are underrated, and have almost disappeared from the national agenda.
Political status inside and outside Parliament reflects a scale of values, which gives low priority to the problems of the poor. Despite legislatures and executives being predominantly populated by persons from the historically disadvantaged with first-hand acquaintance with poverty, there are fewer than a dozen members of Parliament who speak with authority about the operation of the social security system.
Yet this system provides all or most of the livelihood of the poor. The DA advocated the basic income grant as long ago as 1998. But because it is championed by the DA, the Government would not accept it. Evidence by the Ministry of Social Development survey, are the following: “School children from poor families do not get free school meals.” The ANC is not even capable of organising peanut butter sandwiches. The Eastern Cape at least is a case in point. Pension allocations are arbitrarily stopped in the Eastern Cape. Three hundred and thirty-five poverty alleviation projects have collapsed in Gauteng. The reason for this? Official apathy and incompetence play a large part here.
The problem of social representation does not just stop with social security. It spreads into related issues. The education system is another case in point. Lack of delivery of social services, including education, constant changes and revision of curriculums, the brain drain from our institutions, and the unwise decisions by Government to allow experienced and highly skilled teachers and management to take severance packages has weakened education.
The introduction of the national lottery into the economic system has not helped. One point four billion is in the coffers of the state lottery - undistributed. The distribution of the lotto money is skewed. Many NGOs have collapsed because of the lack of funds. The irony is that the poor people who are playing the Lotto invariably subsidise the Government’s agenda and coffers, and it is the indirect taxation of the poor. The number of rich people who are playing the Lotto is very negligible. It is urgently necessary that provisions be made for amending the budget.
In the final analysis, legislatures have the power to deny resources, and in that way, effect allocation. But, guess what, ANC’s MPs, even when it comes to the budget, always press blue, whether blue has the interests of the poor at heart or not, they just press blue! [Interjections.]
Take the huge arms package. The DA opposed it, but the ANC members had to keep quiet.
[In relative terms … [Time expired.] [Interjections.]
Mrs L R MBUYAZI: Deputy Chairperson and hon members, I want to thank the Speaker very much for bringing up this debate today, because we need to take action. Allow me to read the Preamble of our Constitution: “We, the people of South Africa recognise the injustices of our past”. I will also read another line: “We therefore, through the freely elected representatives, adopt this Constitution.” “We, through our freely elected representative” means that, from today, as we have this debate, we need to take steps because the Constitution itself has mandated us to take steps.
Poverty alleviation was high on the agenda at the recent World Summit on Sustainable Development in Johannesburg. Targets and timeframes were identified. One of them was to halve the proportion of people in poverty. We have to halve the proportion of poverty by 2015; support the development of national programmes and strategies to promote education within the context of nationally owned strategies for poverty reduction.
Secondly, on 1 to 4 October 2002, the Gauteng legislature hosted a conference of parliamentarians - it was a conference on poverty eradication
- where members of provinces and of this national Parliament were present. The Speaker was also present. I would like to remind the Speaker and inform hon members of what she suggested, which we endorse, as the IFP.
She said that we needed the right policies. We needed the institution of mechanisms to ensure implementation, and we need qualified and skilled human resources to operate the mechanism of motivation to eradicate poverty. We need adequate financial resources, targeted allocations of these, and proper financial management. We need mechanisms to monitor implementation and recommend correction. I think if we can unpack what Madam Speaker suggested at that conference, even today we can see the results. But we also need to acknowledge the total responsibility of Parliament and parliamentarians for the alleviation of poverty.
We, as members of Parliament, and Parliament itself must accept the responsibility for the alleviation of the suffering imposed by poverty. We need pro-alleviation of poverty legislation, the monitoring of all poverty alleviation programmes on the ground, alerting Parliament to all new needs and problems caused by poverty. Parliament needs to create partnership with NGOs and empower them and the communities. An example of this could be the Red Cross.
Akusizi ukuba sibanikeze izimali njengama-CBO nama NGO kodwa singakwazi ukuthi sibalekelele ukuba bakwazi ukuthi bazoziphatha kanjani lezi zinto. Ezinye zezinkinga ezikhona ukuthi abaxhumanisi sibanikeza izimali ukuthi abaziphathe kodwa singazi ukuthi sibaqapha kanjani. Okunye kwakho, izimali zendlala zithathwe bese ziba ngamaholo amakhulu anikeza bona, bazithuthukisa bona-ke manje. (Translation of Zulu paragraph follows.) [It does not help to give the CBOs and NGOs money if we cannot help them to know how to manage those funds. One other existing problem is that we give money to consultants to manage but we do not know how they manage those funds. One of the problems is that poverty alleviation funds are taken and used as big salaries for consultants, and they are now empowering themselves.]
So our oversight role is to monitor what the consultants are doing with those moneys and those funds, and the resources that have been given to our poor people.
Empowerment of the three spheres of government in poverty alleviation programmes through the oversight function must take place. Parliament and legislatures should play a role in all phases of the budget cycle process. We need resources and skills that are required to pursue a poverty alleviation agenda through parliamentary activities. The House of Traditional Leaders need to be empowered to fight poverty as they are the most affected people. Indlu yabaholi bendabuko iyona ehlangene nengwadla kakhulu, okunye kwakho okwakukuhle kuqala kodwa osekwasuswa, kuwukuthi kwakunomkhuba omuhle owawubhekiswe ebuntwini, wokuthi kukhona ukwenanelana, ukusiselana. Kungekho umuntu ophethwe ububha, kodwa kwathi ngoba sekufika impucuko, yabe seyithatha zonke lezi zinto ezinhle ezabe zikhona. (Translation of Zulu paragraph follows.)
[The House of Traditional Leaders is the one that is facing a big problem, as some of the things that were good before were taken away. There was a good custom regarding humanity, the “ukwenanelana” and “ukusiselana customs”. No one was suffering from poverty. But when Western civilization came, it destroyed all the good things which existed.]
The eradication of poverty requires more than making larger payment welfare payments. These are necessary, but they can only temporarily alleviate poverty. The impact of HIV/Aids may well increase reliance on welfare assistance over time as family breadwinners are affected by these diseases. The data in this regard will need to be analysed sensitively to ensure that a correct understanding is achieved of the relationship between grant dependants on HIV/Aids, unemployment, and employment growth.
Kwenziwa yithi njengamamalungu ePhalamende, ngithi sekushiwo lokhu ngabakhulume ngaphambi kwami ukuthi sineqhatha elikhulu thina njengamalungu ePhalamende lokuba siye laphaya siyokhuluma nabantu. (Translation of Zulu paragraph follows.)
[It has been mentioned by the previous speaker that we as members of Parliament have a role to go there and speak to people.]
MPs need to be empowered with the capacity, support and expertise to enable them to engage in and contribute to the process effectively.
Allow me to put our IFP oversight proposal to monitor the poverty alleviation programme. Each member of Parliament, during constituency week or month, has to go back to his own constituency and collect information about poverty alleviation, and come back and report here.
Phambi kwakho somlomo. Mhlawumbe uke usinikeze nethuba nje ukuthi usidedele inkundla ukuthi mhlawumbe noma njengesifundazwe sike sibike ukuthi kwenzekani. Yikuphi okukhona okusuka kulesiya sifundazwe. Uke udedele iMpumalanga Kapa ike isukume ibike, udedele iKwaZulu-Natali sigiye udedele nabanye nabo basukume bagiye, sibike ukuthi kwenzekani ngokuncishiswa kwendlala, nangendlala uqobo lwayo lapho sisuka khona. (Translation of Zulu paragraph follows.)
[Madam Speaker, perhaps you should give us a chance to take turns, perhaps on behalf of each and every province, to report on what is happening to say what is available in which province. Perhaps you you could let the Eastern Cape submit a report, then get KwaZulu-Natal to submit a report, as well as others also to come and submit reports as to what is happening with regards to poverty alleviation where we come from.]
Members must engage the executive through questions and report their observations in their constituencies, for example, in respect of housing, HIV/Aids, sanitation and orphans. Members of Parliament must ask Ministers to unpack what they have in their different departments about poverty. For example…
Asazi ukuthi kukhonani eMnyangweni wezokuVikela, asazi ukuthi kukhonani kowezeMidlalo mayelana nokuncishiswa kwendlala. Noma, ngiyalinganisa ngale minyango, asazi ukuthi kukhonani eMnyangweni weziokuHlunyeleliswa kweziMilo, asazi ukuthi kukhonani kowezaMaciko naMasiko, asazi ukuthi kukhonani kweminye iminyango. Yebo ukhona siyazi ukuthi eMnyangweni kaMongameli kukhonani, kodwa kufanele sazi ukuthi kukhonani, yikuphi lapho singaklomula khona siyise laphaya. Ngisho nohulumeni wasekhaya unazo ezinye izinto esingaxomula kuzona. Ngasho ngakujonga Sekela Ngqongqoshe, kodwa nje sengisholo ukuthi singakwazi ukuthi sicaphune sizwe ukuthi kukhonani. (Translation of Zulu paragraph follows.)
[We do not know what there is regarding poverty in the Department of Defence. We do not know what is in the Department of Sport and Recreation. I am using these departments as an example. We do not know what is in the Department of Correctional Services. We do not know what is in the Department of Arts, Culture, Science and Technology. We do not know what is in other departments. Yes, we know of what is in the Department of the Presidency, but we should know about what we can get and take to the people. Even a local government has things from which we can take something. It is a mistake that I am looking at the Deputy Minister as I am saying this because. What I mean is that we can take something once we know what is there.]
But we also need to ask ourselves about what we are doing about poverty alleviation. Singakhombi iminwe eyisihlanu, uma ikhomba ikhomba le kodwa emithathu ikhomba thina. [Ihlombe.] [We should not point with five fingers. When one points with these fingers, three of them will point back to us as to what we are doing about poverty alleviation. [Applause.]
Have we collected enough information about poverty from our constituencies and given that to the Ministers? Have we done that? Have we engaged the executive to unpack what they have in respect of the poverty alleviation programmes? Maybe the Speaker can devote time here with Parliament, with those powers vested in her, to ask us what our observations were during the break and ask members to report back and also ask Ministers to respond.
Our IFP resolution during the Women’s Brigade Conference acknowledged that poverty is hitting women and girls hardest by re-enforcing the gender bias in our society, with the statistics now revealing that the majority of poor homes throughout South Africa are headed by women of all race groups. The rules can also be changed in order to allow and encourage members to bring about constituency issues.
In order to reach the poor, parliamentarians will need to know their constituencies thoroughly, and must be able to distinguish the poor from the overall constituencies. [Time expired.] On that note, I support this Bill. [Applause.]
Mr A Z A VAN JAARSVELD: Mr Chairman, the New NP recognises poverty as the most immediate problem that faces our nation today. It carries with it implications for almost every facet of our natural life. It impacts directly or indirectly on everyone in South Africa. More than half of our population’s income is well below the minimum that is necessary to make ends meet and they are therefore living in some or other degree of poverty.
As much as the Government is doing to improve the quality of life of these people, we have to acknowledge that poverty is both the cause and the result of economic inefficiency and the underutilisation of the nation’s resources.
Poverty impacts on our nation, from birth to the grave. Poverty destroys the human dignity that our Constitution seeks to protect. Poverty is a multidimensional phenomenon that reflects on the inability to satisfy the needs that result in a lack of education, poor health, malnutrition, a lack of shelter and violence and crime. Poverty is not only a very public issue that is visible in many of our communities, it is also a very private experience for every individual who has to cope with it on a daily basis.
We have to acknowledge the fact that although the South African economy is performing well in comparison to other economies in our region, we have not risen to our potential in the fight against poverty. Redistribution of resources without expanded production and economic growth cannot be sustained. At the same time, prosperity without security of life and property also holds little appeal.
We have to deal with the issue of domestic poverty by seeking for ourselves a sustainable place in the global economy. Our aim should be to work together for prosperity and a just and socially responsible society. In seeking a solution, we will have to recognise that income and the outcomes of economic activity are determined by the differences between individual human beings. We have to acknowledge that inequality is a normal feature of any free society. In our fight against poverty, in order to establish a just society, we have to acknowledge that the process to determine economic outcomes must be just and fair, affording each citizen equal opportunity to obtain the maximum return on his or her own efforts.
In attacking poverty, we have to increase the thrust of the short-term programme to alleviate extreme poverty, with particular reference to those who, through disability, Aids or externally induced economic circumstances, are unable to take part in the economic process. In a civilised society with a social conscience, it is our duty to protect these people against a life of poverty.
In the medium and longer term, it is the duty of the Government to create circumstances that would be conducive to the reduction of poverty through the individual efforts of each and every member of society and in particular of the poor themselves, working towards ensuring their own wellbeing and prosperity. In order to reach these objectives, we should concentrate on economic growth, with the creation of employment as the first priority, private free enterprise as a basis of the production economy, the promotion and security of private property rights, the integration of South Africa into a global economic mainstream and the development of public-private partnerships.
In conclusion, the New NP believes that the war on poverty is not the responsibility of Government alone, but of each and every citizen in a socially responsible society, not least the poor themselves. The establishment of a national collaborative framework involving all the relevant stakeholders is essential to achieve the alignment of effort. [Time expired.] [Applause.]
The MINISTER OF SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT: It is a pity that this debate is being limited to mostly women speakers. I think the issue of poverty is not an issue for women alone. It is an issue that ought to be occupying our minds and our activities.
I do not know if that is why the DP decided to send her majesty, Madam R Jankielsohn, to say what she wanted to say. I would like to quote the last speaker, who said that the issue of poverty is not an issue only for the executive but that it is an issue for all the representatives of our people and indeed not only for the Government alone but also for the private sector and generally all of our people.
As far as I know, the majority of South Africans outside this House have taken that task on themselves. Last week, I signed an agreement with a number of private sector companies led by Absa, which came out openly and said ``Poverty is an ill that should be removed from the face of South Africa’’. If, to the DP, this is an issue for Government alone, I think the DP has still very much to learn. I hope the hon lady was not really representing the DP.
The impact of food price inflation is affecting every South African. As parliamentarians, we represent constituencies from across the country and are well-placed to discern indications of the impact of inflation. We are ideally positioned to observe when communities are experiencing severe poverty and hunger. Importantly, we are able to enlighten them about our government programmes, and that they are in place to bring relieve to them, and that is what we are being paid to do, I wish to tell Madam Jankielsohn. Each day that we sit here, it is with the purpose to enlighten the constituency that elected members into positions, and not leave it to the members of the ANC to do so. We do represent the poor, and we will represent them up to the last. That member will sit there and forget where she comes from. [Applause.]
I urge all public representatives to be proactive in ensuring that their constituencies are fully informed about the social grants for which they are eligible. Already 5 million South Africans around this country are receiving social grants, but many more are still eligible and they are not receiving it. It is Madam Jankielsohn’s duty to go and tell them that they are entitled to it.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON: Minister, it is Madam Sono although…
The MINISTER OF SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT: Oh she might be the real Sono in African languages! [Laughter.] In spite of publicity, it appears that many potential beneficiaries are unaware of their rights to child support, old age pension, disability, foster care or other grants. When next visiting their constituencies, the hon members of this House should call at a grant payment point to encourage efficiency and ensure the effectiveness of these critical interventions by this Government. I wish to tell that to Madam Sono.
Members of Parliament should also be aware of the poverty relief projects in their areas. They are aimed at empowering communities by means of training and capacity-building, the expansion of household asset bases and improving access to finance, Madam Sono. In the short-term, poverty relief interventions provide emergency food parcels and agricultural starter packs to encourage household food production initiatives. On a medium-term basis, community food production clusters are established to capacitate community members for commercial farming or other income-generating projects. Our long-term intervention is to create access to social finance for starter capital so that individuals or households can start their own commercial projects.
Our poverty relief programmes has five objectives. These are to create food production clusters, to support caregivers of people affected and infected by HIV/Aids, to increase the employability of youth, to encourage income generation in activities for rural women, and to provide multipurpose centres to encourage the involvement of older persons in social and economic pursuits. Members of Parliament should ensure that they become conversant with the procedures for writing projects, business plans and should be knowledgeable on how to access funding.
Our constituency offices around the country are ideally positioned to provide information on these issues to all South Africans. We need to be particularly concerned about the children of this country. Sixty per cent of our citizens aged below 18 are poor, and 30% are often hungry, according to the Idasa analysis of the October 1999 Household Survey. This is why we are placing such emphasis on the registration of children for child support grants, I wish to tell Madam Sono.
People who are tasked with the buying of groceries to feed their families are acutely aware of the dramatic price increases that have occurred in recent years and, more especially, in the last few months. Sadly, the days of spending R100 on food to keep the family going for a month are now ancient history. Statistics SA informs us that the consumer price of vegetables has increased by 24% in the last 12 months. What does this mean to the ordinary South African consumer? It means that to buy the same quantity of vegetables that one purchased for R50 in October 2001, one now needs R62.
Similarly, the price of grain products has increased by 22% meaning that R200 worth of maize meal, bread, rice and spaghetti and grain products one year ago now costs the consumer R244. The situation is almost as bad for meat, fish and dairy products, and slightly less so for fruit, sugar, tea and coffee. These figures have resulted in an overall consumer price increase of 20.2% for food in the last year. This is significantly higher than the CPIX which includes most of the non-food items as well. The CPIX has increased by 10,8% during the same period. It appears to be beyond dispute that food price increases are the main drivers of inflation.
According to the 2001 survey by the Bureau of Market Research, households in the Cape Metropolitan area with an income of less than R1 600 per month spend almost 46% of their income on food in comparison to the top income group. Those earning more than R11 600 per month spend one eighth, that is 12%, of their money on food. These patterns are likely to be similar in other parts of the country.
The space for manoeuvrability is extremely limited for the poorest of the poor of our society. The more one spends on food, the less one is able to pay for housing, transport and medical care, let alone for education, clothing and other necessities. If one has already spent half of one’s income on food, the challenge to make ends meet is even greater. Ironically, the burden of the rapidly increasing food prices is felt most severely in the poorer provinces where this is least affordable.
Whereas the food price index increases for Gauteng and Western Cape were over 18% for the last 12 months, it was almost 28% in the Eastern Cape, 26% in KwaZulu-Natal and 20% in Limpopo.
Regrettably, it is not simple to control prices. This is not the role of the Government. What the Government can do is to appeal to producers, wholesalers and retailers to limit their profit margins, and to minimise the passing of increased costs to consumers, especially in the case of basic staple foods.
We are extremely grateful for the gestures by some large retailers to donate bags of mieliemeal or to subsidise the consumer price thereof for a limited period. Others are urged to follow the example, if at all possible.
Additionally, the severe shortage in neighbouring countries has meant that more of our food is being sold to our neighbours, thereby decreasing local domestic supply and inflating prices that are asked domestically. [Time expired.]
Prof L M MBADI: Mr Chairperson, hon Minister and hon members, the primary task of Parliament, in its effort to alleviate poverty, is to fulfil its watch-dog responsibility and ensure proper oversight over the activities of Government.
Every year, Parliament scrutinises Budget Votes presented to it by various Ministers, and approves them. The pertinent question may well be asked: Does the money voted for poverty alleviation reach its targets, namely, the poorest of the poor? It was this Parliament that passed a law permitting gambling in the country and established the national lottery. The Sunday Times of 27 October 2002 has revealed that R372m earmarked for the defunct RDP fund and national disasters was not disbursed. Why was this money not used for natural disasters in the Cape or to feed desperately poor and hungry children in the North Eastern Cape? Parliament must request the Minister of Finance and the Minister of Trade and Industry to appoint a proper agency to distribute these funds.
Parliament appreciates the efforts made by the Minister of Social Development to rope in organised business to lend a hand in alleviating poverty. Consequently, Jonnic Publishing, Tiger rands, Pick & Pay and Absa made firm commitments towards the Minister’s initiative.
At the same event, Absa and the National Development Agency signed a memorandum of understanding. Absa donated R1m, as the first phase, to conduct research into the needs of the poor, disabled as well as women and children.
Sibamba ngazo zozibini, krec’ izulu. Akasekho kwalapha. [We thank you, tall man. Oh! He has gone already.]
The community-based public works programme is a focused job-creation and poverty-relief programme targeted primarily at the rural poor and funded by the Poverty Relief Fund appropriated by this Parliament. Its objectives include creating both temporary and sustainable employment opportunities through the short public works projects and by facilitating micro-business opportunities associated with the community assets created.
The focus of the community-based public works programme is to identify clusters of projects within identified poverty pockets in rural communities. Such communities are characterised by a lack of infrastructure, a lack of skills and weak institutional support for development.
It is the responsibility of public representatives to establish the physical existence of the projects and to continuously monitor and evaluate them. They must ensure that the minimum targets for employing particular groups are observed, namely, local labour, 30%, women, 50%, young people, 15%, and the disabled 1,5%.
The Independent Development Trust is a public institution set up to support Government to meet its development goals. It is partly funded from money appropriated by this Parliament for poverty relief to the National Public Works Programme. In addition to the funds received from Public Works, the IDT receives transfer payments from other government departments and the private sector.
Amalungu ePalamente mawazigqale ezi mali, azibone okokuba zisetyenziswa ngendlela eyiyo kusini na. Baninzi oohlohl’ esakhe phandl’ apha. [Laphela ixesha.] [Members of Parliament should note that these funds are not misused. There are a lot of fatcats out there. [Time expired.]]
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! Before I recognise the next speaker, hon members, I think you are having by far too many private discussions. May I please call you to order.
Mrs R M SOUTHGATE: Mr Chairperson, the recent conference in Gauteng on poverty comprised mostly of parliamentarians. This is an example of how far removed Parliament is from the people. The conference programme does not indicate a speaker from the poor community. This is normally the case with poverty-related conferences - the voice of the poor is normally carried by the outsider while those in poverty have to look on.
The Bible says that the poor we shall always have with us. We need to steer away from the belief that the poor cannot fend for themselves. However, it is our collective responsibility to ensure that, despite their impoverished situation, they live a life with dignity and respect.
Economic growth can no longer be perceived as the only key factor in the fight against poverty. Factors like political stability, moral regeneration, skills development, good health, secure environment and an acceptable level of social services are equally important. The sad reality is that, even though a large portion of our Budget is allocated to address the social problems within our community, we have 37% of our people living in abject poverty and 75% of people who do not have access to basic food.
The social welfare programme has not helped to eradicate poverty because of poor services. Rather, it is not reaching the people. Each member of Parliament has a social responsibility to take these programmes to their constituencies and enquire where we can improve. The church and other civil organisations are the appropriate institutions that can deliver effective services to the communities, and I think Government needs to look at making more tax concessions to these organisations.
South Africa has a Charter for Mining, a Charter for Moral Regeneration in the making, and we have a Freedom Charter. The ACDP is in the process of completing a charter on poverty alleviation. The approach we have taken is not top-down neither bottom-up, but we are networking with organisations in the community.
When I visit my constituencies, the sight of the appalling poverty-stricken conditions many of our citizens live in, is heart-breaking. Many of our senior citizens do not enjoy the benefits of their pension, as all their money has to go towards sustaining an entire family. Many of them ask the question: why is Government so quick to feed our neighbouring countries when their very own citizens are dying of starvation? The ACDP believes that Government needs first to see to the well-being of its own citizens and then embark on being the bread basket of Africa, which we encourage.
The ACDP has embarked on a nutritional programme in a few schools, as many of our children do not even have a nutritional meal for a day. Some of them have been at school for three days without eating and I am very much involved, hands-on. The present feeding scheme is inadequate as 17 loaves of bread to feed 530 children is not enough, 25 loaves of bread to feed 820 is also not enough, and now they are also actually decreasing the amount.
Many children do not even want to go on school holidays. Do hon members know why? Because they say they would rather stay at school because, at least, the lucky ones get a slice of bread. How do we expect our children to develop and achieve academic success when they go hungry?
The ACDP proposes that Government review the feeding scheme and introduce a sustainable nutritional programme at schools in poverty-stricken areas where all children would be able to get at least one nutritional meal a day; that Government introduces foodstamps and introduces a charter on poverty alleviation. It is time for MPs to get their hands dirty and get involved in their constituencies. [Time expired.]
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! Hon members, we have a long day and I would like you to keep to your time. All the overruns will actually add up in the end. Ms C C SEPTEMBER: Mr Chairperson, to the hon member from the ACDP, I would like to say: love thy neighbour as you love yourself. Do not complain about our neighbouring countries.
During the state of the nation address in February this year, the President reaffirmed the centrality of the legacy of poverty and underdevelopment to the restructuring and development of South Africa, and he said that eradicating poverty is the single biggest challenge in South Africa.
Poverty is always seen within the context of economic development. It is a complex issue. It is seen in a mechanical perception as a lack of income, but income alone is not a valid measurement for poverty. Poverty has a much wider definition, and it is also regarded as deprivation in terms of lacking or having insufficient access to resources or the inability to meet basic needs. In a cultural perspective, poverty can be regarded as isolation, loss of direction, hopelessness, apathy and passive suffering.
It would therefore be correct to locate this debate within its proper context, that sustainable livelihood and employment creation in South Africa should be a prerequisite for formulating a strategic programme for poverty eradication and full employment. Our role as Parliament then becomes centrally driven within such a strategic programme, a strategic programme which derives from mainstreaming poverty reduction into national policy-making in addition to adopting a proper growth strategy.
It is therefore then correct that the ANC-led Government has chosen to invest in the economy through public works programmes, education and training programmes and other social investments as an approach to eliminating the social backlogs, job creation and economic growth and the choice to do all of this in clusters in Cabinet. Key to the pro-poor growth strategy remains Parliament ensuring a pro-poor fiscal, monetary, trade and industry, and an agricultural policy.
Regarding fiscal policy, on Tuesday, we were afforded the opportunity to hear what the Minister of Finance was putting in his Medium-Term Expenditure Framework. He told us that, in the MTEF, the prioritisation of Government expenditure - he alluded to this on Tuesday - was on a range of topics. But, importantly, the first one, he said, should be poverty reduction and development; addressing the needs of vulnerable groups through extending social assistance, health and education; expanding the capacity in the safety and security sector; accelerating land reforms and restitution; increasing support for research and development so that we continue to see where the poverty levels are in this country, and a range of other things. All of these will allow and enable us to achieve a promotion in productivity and investment. These increase our ability towards achieving social and political stability in the country and all the encompassed processes.
Around the monetary policy issue, the ANC policy conference recently emerged with a very important decision that monetary policy must be used in a very flexible manner that should be consistent with the broad aims and objectives of the ANC economic policy, including job creation, investment and poverty eradication and that, very importantly, monetary policy must continue to be directed towards the achievement and maintenance of macroeconomic stability, and it should be in the interest of sustainable economic growth. [Interjections.] It should be able to maintain our approach on inflation targeting while ensuring that targets are consistent with our economic objectives, and that all role-players in the economy play their role in pursuing low inflation and, in the above regard, strive to achieve broad consensus on inflation targets.
With regard to trade and industry policy, I want to take the opportunity to congratulate the South African Clothing and Textile Worker’s Union for the initiative that they are taking in this province today to lift the clothing industry out of the level in which it was by putting together a partnership with all the role-players that we have in the Western Cape. There is no way that we would have had such a partnership in the Western Cape if we still had a DA government.
Our role as MPs in this area has and should continue to be that the industrial policy gives high productivity. Again, therefore, a correct decision was taken at the policy conference on a range of issues regarding which Government, at all levels, should embark on a programme that combines short-term measures aimed at providing a degree of immediate relief with longer-term interventions aimed at sustainable job creation and alternative income-earning opportunities. There is a range of very good measures, but time does not allow me to go through them.
With regard to agricultural policy, we come up with alternatives, again, to alleviate poverty and, here again, a co-operative movement would support more equitable growth and ownership in our economy and, in doing so, our people will be empowered. This will provide important services which would be more affordable and efficient to particularly poor households; the current legislative framework for co-operatives is about encouraging the formation of small-scale producer co-ops and to co-opt financial institutions or consumer co-ops.
I have argued that a pro-poor growth strategy should be mainstreamed to eradicate poverty and unemployment and ensure that the executive follow up on this and that members of Parliament then play a role in making sure that these programmes do come to the different communities.
It is therefore obvious that Parliament’s budget should be aligned to enable members of Parliament to implement, inside and outside of Parliament, such a growth strategy in our oversight, in our public hearings and when visiting our constituencies. I cannot help but say that in doing so - I want to make a call - we are doing so as a form of partnership, the form of partnership that we have seen emerging since the beginning of the year when we started the Letsima campaign and that we call upon our people to form partnerships and show a new patriotism in addressing poverty alleviation, one which will unite ourselves as a country against this common enemy. [Applause.]
Mrs M A SEECO: Chairperson and hon members, a healthy society is a mirror that reflects the attitude of its government officials towards its own citizens. Our country cannot claim to be free when the majority of its citizens are dying of poverty. What role can members as politicians, indeed, parliamentarians, play in addressing the challenge of poverty? There is no doubt that people expect members to do something about the state of poverty in our country. There is a general feeling amongst people that we, as parliamentarians,do not care a hoot about their plight.
The tag attached to parliamentarians is that of them being on the gravy train whilst the people are struggling. Such a perception has to be corrected. We need to demonstrate to people that we care. It has to be emphasised that parliamentarians can make a difference in fighting poverty, as they are strategically positioned to direct government resources in whatever way necessary to implement poverty alleviation programmes. How involved are members with their local communities in fighting poverty at a constituency level as the people’s representatives? Do we use these periods as a holiday or to pursue party politics? This is an opportunity that we can all use to work with nongovernmental organisations and other members of the community to assist them to access government help in that regard.
As parliamentarians, we need to devise ways and means of promoting public and private sector partnerships in fighting poverty. In this regard, parliamentarians are challenged to set up a poverty alleviation trust fund that brings together business, non-profit organisations and parliamentarians. The envisaged association will enable parliamentarians to work together irrespective of their party affiliation and contribute meaningfully and directly to poverty alleviation programmes [Time expired].
Dr M S MOGOBA: Chairperson, Parliament has legislative responsibilities to make laws that regulate the lives of all people. Our Parliament is handicapped in one area, namely, not having constituency structures and therefore direct links with people it purports to represent. In normal democratic parliaments, members of parliament coming from a constituency give regular reports to their constituents.
The basic function of Parliament in our system is to regulate life and curb excesses of greed and capitalism. The regulation cannot happen on its own. It is the responsibility of Government to set the parameters of individual freedom and responsibilities. Our country is large enough to contain and maintain all of us. We do not have to resort to bombs, as in the case of the madness of killing innocent citizens in Soweto. One of the major tasks for Parliament in post-apartheid South Africa is to emphasise the ethic of sharing. This is the opposite of what obtained in our country before the democratic dispensation.
We live in a society that has shocking inequalities between Sandton and Alexandra, Newlands and Crossroads, and between Umhlanga Rocks and Cato Manor. We live in a society where one section lives in large houses while others live in cardboard houses. One group has wardrobes whose railings are falling down because of the clothes they have on them while the other group has few clothes. In fact, some people have no wardrobes or railings; all their possessions or clothing are kept in a paper bag.
One cardinal of the church observed that clothes and shoes that we do not use do not belong to us but to those who are half-naked and barefooted. Parliament must help create jobs, give a living grant to those who earn nothing and are hungry. Parliament must speed up development. [Time expired].
Miss S RAJBALLY: Chairperson, poverty is one of the most horrible problems that South African society is faced with. Unemployment, the effects of apartheid and many other factors contribute to this.
Though it is extremely important to locate the source of the problem, the reality of our situation is that poverty is a major problem and one needs to address it earnestly. Government programmes and policies have been instituted for the earnest alleviation of poverty and sustainable development of the country. With many policies in place, there has been a degree of relief in terms of poverty alleviation.
The national lottery has also tried to alleviate the problem, but that is not enough. The involvement of all sectors should serve as the greatest source of alleviation. Statistics scare us to the degree that we often refuse to listen. Media coverage has sent shockwaves throughout the affluent homes in South Africa regarding the reality that South Africa might be a free country, but that many of its people are dying of starvation. The MF is pleased, though, to note the earnest involvement of the public and private sectors in fighting poverty.
We as parliamentarians can also make a great contribution. Poverty alleviation fairs and other means of addressing and bringing to the fore the growing problem would help a lot in highlighting the reality of the situation, and lead to greater assistance.
There are a number of ways in which we, including the MF, as parliamentarians, can contribute to poverty alleviation. [Applause.]
Mr P J NEFOLOVHODWE: Chairperson, during the past three development decades, numerous development and upliftment models, programmes and strategies have been proposed in order to eliminate poverty. Each of these models defines poverty alleviation in its own way, including the process whereby it could be achieved.
The most familiar models have been those of economic growth, growth with distribution, the new international economic order and the production for basic needs and various forms of self-reliance.
Azapo believes that most of these models miss the point, in that they proceed from the premise that society should engage in poverty alleviation, instead of poverty eradication. Further, most models of poverty alleviation have taken for granted that economic growth leads automatically to economic transformation and the advancement of the poor in society.
From the perspective of Azapo, poverty should not be alleviated but eradicated through development. These developments should lead to the equitable growth in the poor’s personal and collective capacities in order for them to determine their own destiny.
The role of Parliament under these circumstances is to legislate in such a way that resources are directed at changing the material circumstances under which the poor live. The approach should be to put the poor at the centre stage, with the priority being the poor’s ongoing struggle to improve their circumstances. [Time expired.]
Mr R JANKIELSOHN: Chairperson, when dealing with issues relating to poverty alleviation, it is appropriate to define what is meant by the term “poverty”. There are two types of poverty, namely absolute and relative poverty. Both are applicable to this debate, as many in society and in Government confuse the issues. The World Bank defines poverty as “a situation where incomes are so low that even a minimum standard of nutrition, shelter and personal necessities cannot be maintained.”
On the other hand, relative poverty is an expression of poverty in relation to something else. For example, in relation to Lesotho or Swaziland, South Africa may seem not so poor. These terms are important because many South Africans live with the illusion that South Africa is a rich country, while in reality many people in the country do not know where their next meal will come from. In real terms, food prices are spiralling out of control and people are starting to die.
The 1996 census indicated that 52% of South Africans were living in poverty. Any person who works and travels in rural South Africa can see the day-to-day deterioration in the quality of people’s lives. Although even employed people have been known to live in poverty, unemployment remains the basic cause of poverty. In South Africa, unemployment has increased to the extent that although the official figure may be 37%, it is reported to be as high as 88% in some rural areas.
South Africa has an abundance of human and natural resources. What is lacking, however, is direct foreign investment to convert this into real economic development. This investment depends on a number of factors, including a sound economic and fiscal basis that may stimulate economic growth and produce confidence among investors. Second, we need a secure and safe environment for investment of capital. The high rate of crime in South Africa is not conducive to investment.
Third, we need a well-educated and healthy society. Our country is losing many of our most skilled people who could play a vital role in the economic development of this country. At the same time, our most vital economic asset, our young people, are dying of Aids.
Fourth, in an era of globalisation, regional stability will be a determining factor in a country’s economic development. In this respect, South Africa’s ad hoc approach to problems relating to regional development has much room for improvement. While Zimbabwe ruins its economy and sends the region into mass starvation, South Africa opts for silent diplomacy.
This brings me to the fifth point about leadership. A transitional society requires bold leadership and vision. Leadership requires not only the courage and political will to take principled decisions and stick to them, but also the ability to admit mistakes and implement remedial action.
In this respect, the current Government is failing the people of our country and the people of the region. We as a Parliament are not holding them to account.
Poverty alleviation in South Africa is not going to be easy to deal with, especially as both absolute and relative poverty are both aspects that have the potential to cause a great deal of economic and, ultimately, political instability in South Africa and the region. We have in our country an economic elite that can afford to live secluded from the rest of society, and where it is easy to say: We are a rich country. On the other hand, we have the majority of our people living on the other side of the fence, vulnerable, in shacks, and unsure where their next meal will come from.
I would like to use the following illustration to indicate the frustration of many South Africans. A South African woman was quoted as saying, during a case study for the book: Uprooting Poverty: The South African Challenge, and I quote:
Sometimes the children lie awake at night. I know that they are hungry. I feel like feeding them rattex. When your children cry hunger-cry, your heart wants to break. It would be better if they were dead. When I think of like things like that I feel worse. I am sick.
I cannot take my children to the doctor when they are sick because there is no money. What can one do? You must start looking. You must also pray to God that He will keep you from killing your children.
[Interjections.]
For the sake of our future, we will have to be honest and principled in our approach to poverty alleviation. With this in mind, politicians may not be the best people to tackle the issue. Unfortunately, however, the reality is that politicians will have to produce policies and programmes to deal with poverty. [Time expired.] [Applause.]
Nkskz C I GCINA: Mhlalingaphambili, ndiyalelwe ukuba ndithethe ngendlala nangendlela esingathi siyilwe ngayo. Okubalulekileyo kukuba kufuneka sisebenzisane nooceba ukuze sikwazi ukuyilwa iphele indlala phakathi kwabantu bethu.
Abantu kufuneka ukuba nabo baphakame bancedisane noRhulumente. Abona bantu bahleleleke kakhulu ngabo basemaphandleni. Eyona nto ifunekayo …
… Enye into endingayikhuthaziyo kukuphiwa kwabantu iipasile zokutya kuba abasokuze bakwazi ukuzenzela nto. Kufuneka baphakame balime izitiya, ze thina sibadibanise nabezolimo ukuze bafumane amasimi, bafuye iinkuku neehagu. Siyabacela abantu ukuba bazenze ezi zinto.
URhulumente wenza konke ekusemandleni kuba uyayithumela imali kumaphondo ethu, ukuzama ukuphelisa indlala, ntonje akanamncedisi kwinqanaba elisezantsi. Kudala yabakho indlala, kwakurhulumente wangaphambili. Thina bantu abazalelwe ezilokishini kudala sisokola, imisebenzi ingekho.
Phaya eBhayi, ngexa kwakuphakama abafundi ngonyaka ka-1976 iindawo ezininzi ezinjengemizimveliso yezithuthi neminye zavala. Namhlanje akukho mizimveliso ngaphandle nje kweendawo ezimbalwa zokwenza iimoto. Abantu abaninzi abaphangeli ukususela oko kwavalwa loo mizimveliso, bamkela indodla. Bayaqala ukufumana izindlu ngezi baziphiwe nguRhulumente, kubandakanywa umbane, amanzi acocekileyo nonyango.
Ngenxa yabantu abaninzi abangaphangeliyo, uRhulumente ukhupha imali khon’ ukuze kuqhutywe amaphulo okuqeqesha abantu ukuze bakwazi ukuziphilela ngokuzisebenzela kuba abanakho ukufumana imisebenzi bonke.
Thina sakhelwa ngurhulumente wangaphambili izindlu ezimagumbi mabini, sizirenta. Zazingafulelwanga ngaphakathi zingenawo nomgangatho. Izindlu zangasese zazingemva zinamabhakethi. Sasingenawo nombane kwezo zindlu. Wayesithi ubani akuswelekelwa ngumyeni ze angcwatywe ngoMgqibelo okanye ngeCawe, ngoMvulo wayekhutshwa kuthiwe makahambe aye kufuna indoda ukuze atshate kuba akanalungelo lokuhlala endlwini engenamyeni.
Ukuba ubani unonyana ophangelayo, yayithatyathwa indlu yakhe inikwe unyana wakhe ze athi akutshata loo nyana umolokazana akukhuphele ngaphandle. Nokuba ubani ukhulelwe okanye unomntwana omncinci, wayekhutshwa qha endlwini.
Kufuneka abantu bethu bakhumbule apho basuka khona. Sisuka phi, besihleli njani ngaphambili? Namhlanje abantu bagxoga lo Rhulumente uzamayo ngamatye. Abantu abakuRhulumente abahlali neentsapho zabo. Banyuka besihla besebenzela abantu.
Kufuneka siphakame sonke sincedisane nooceba kwakunye noRhulumente ukuze siyilwe iphele le ndlala igqubayo phakathi kwabantu bethu, ndlala leyo ingaqali namhlanje. [Kwaqhwatywa.] (Translation of Xhosa paragraphs follows.)
[Mrs C I GCINA: Chairperson, I have been instructed to talk about hunger and poverty, and about the way we could fight them. What is important is that we should work together with councillors so that we could succeed in fighting poverty among our people.
People should stand up and work together with the Government. The poorest of the poor are people living in rural areas. What is needed is … [Inaudible.]
I also do not encourage the handing out of food parcels because I believe that people will never be able to do things for themselves. They should start up gardens and then we will introduce them to those who deal with agricultural matters so that they could get ploughing fields, they could farm in poultry and pigs. We humbly ask people to do these things. The Government is doing all in its power because they allocate funds to our provinces to try to fight poverty but the problem persists because there is no assistance from the lower level. Poverty has long been around even during the previous government. We, people who were born in townships, have long been suffering without jobs. In Port Elizabeth, during students’ uprisings in 1976, many places of employment like car manufacturers and others closed down. There are no more factories around except for a few motor industries. Many people are unemployed and receive pension grants. For the first time in their lives they own houses that were provided for them by this Government, including electricity, clean water and medical care.
Because of high levels of unemployment, the Government has allocated funds to assist in the setting up of training programmes so that they could provide for themselves because not everybody can get be formally employed. The previous government built us two-roomed houses that we rented. They did not have ceilings or flooring. We used the bucket system of toilets. We did not have electricity in those houses. When one’s husband died and was buried on a Saturday or Sunday, on Monday she would be told to go and find a man who would be willing to marry her, as she would lose the house when she did not have a man. If one had a son who was working, the house would be given to him and when gets married, the daughter-in-law would have the right to drive her out of the house. Our people should always remember where we come from. What is our background? How did we live before? Today we find people throwing stones at this Government while it is doing all it can. People who serve in this Government do not live with their families. They are all over the place working for people. We need to stand up and help councilors and the Government so that we could fight poverty that is so rampant among us, and which has always existed. [Applause.]]
Mnr J J NIEMANN: Mnr die Voorsitter, in die drie minute wat ek het, wil ek drie voorstelle doen wat die Regering moet uitvoer om armoedverligting aan honderdduisende mense te bring.
Hierdie Regering diskrimineer tussen ‘n vrou wat vir ‘n ouderdomspensioen kwalifiseer op die ouderdom van 60, en ‘n man wat ‘n sogenaamde broodwinner is, maar wat eers op die ouderdom van 65 vir ‘n ouderdomspensioen kwalifiseer. Dit is diskriminasie tussen manlik en vroulik in die ergste graad. Dit is ook ‘n oortreding van die Suid-Afrikaanse Grondwet. Hier sit ‘n paar Ministers - die hele Kabinet sit hier - wat die saak dadelik moet regstel indien armoedverligting hul erns is. Bring armoedverligting aan honderdduisende mans wat tans werkloos is en onder die bestaansminimum leef. Dit is ‘n skandalige weerhouding van pensioen van die armstes van armes. Die Regering behoort nie net die skandalige diskriminasie dadelik reg te stel nie, maar behoort ‘n regstellende, terugwerkende terugbetaling te doen aan alle mans wat reeds die ouderdom van 60 bereik het.
Tweedens, net soos die eerste voorstel, het die Nuwe NP in die Noord-Kaap al jare gelede ál drie dié voorstelle vir armoedverligting as beleid aanvaar. Tans word kindertoelae betaal van die geboorte af tot op die ouderdom van sewe jaar. Nou is daar sprake dat die Regering die ouderdomsperk gaan opskuif tot 14 jaar. Dan is die kind in graad 7, en vat die Regering die kindertoelae weg. Nee, nee! Die Nuwe NP sê, gee die kindertoelaag die dag wanneer die kind toegelaat word tot die skool en totdat hy of sy die skool permanent verlaat. Die eerste 18 maande kry ‘n kind die kragtigste voedsel wat ‘n kind maar kan kry, naamlik moedersmelk. Die behoefte van ‘n kind tot en met die ouderdom van sewe is baie minder as wanneer die kind begin skoolgaan. Elke jaar op skool word die eise en behoeftes van die kind groter en groter. Die Regering vat die kindertoelaag weg juis wannneer die kind dit die nodigste het. Dit dra by tot verdere verarming van die armes.
Derdens stel die Nuwe NP voor dat waar albei ouers meens vigs gesterf het en daar nie ‘n voog of ‘n pleegouer is wat na die kinders omsien nie, die Regering sorgafhanklikheidstoelae by wyse van kos- en klerekoepons aan die kind moet betaal wat die funksie van die huishouding oorgeneem het. Tans word daardie wesies aan die genade van die gemeenskap oorgelaat, wat bydra tot verdere verarming. Die staat versuim sy plig teenoor die armes. Die ergste is dat die ANC-Regering se leuse is: ``A better life for all’’. Dit is niks anders as galgehumor nie. (Translation of Afrikaans speech follows.)
[Mr J J NIEMANN: Mr Chairperson, in the three minutes at my disposal I want to make three proposals, which the Government must implement in order to bring poverty relief to hundreds of thousands of people.
This Government is discriminating between a woman, who qualifies for old age pension at the age of 60, and a man who is the so-called breadwinner, but who only qualifies for old age pension at the age of 65. This is discriminatin to the worst degree between male and female. It is also a transgression of the South African Constitution. There are a few Ministers sitting here - the whole Cabinet is here - who must immediately rectify this matter if they are serious about poverty relief. Bring poverty relief to hundreds of thousands of men who are currently unemployed, living on the breadline. This ia a scandalous restraint of pension for the poorest of the poor. Government should not only rectify the scandalous discrimination immediately, but should effect a corrective, backdated repayment to all males who have already reached the age of 60. Secondly, as with the first proposal, several years ago the Northern Cape’s New NP had already taken up as policy all three of these proposals on poverty relief. Currently child grants are being paid from birth to the age of seven years. Now there is talk that the Government will move the age restriction up to 14 years. The child will then be in grade 7 when the Government takes away the child grant. No,no! The New NP says, give the child rebate from the day the child enters the school until the day he or she permanently leaves there. In the first 18 months the child receives the most potent food any child can get, namely mother’s milk. The needs of a child up to the age of seven are far less than those of a child that is starting with school. Each year at school the requirements and needs of the child grow and grow. The Government is removing the child grant just when the child needs it the most. This contributes to the further improvement of the poor.
Thirdly, the New NP proposes that when both parents have died of Aids and there are no guardians or foster parents to look after the children, the Government must pay the care dependency grant by way of food and clothing coupons to the child who has taken over the running of the household. At present, those orphans are being left to the mercy of the community, which adds to further impoverishment. The state is remiss in its duty towards the poor. The worst is that the ANC Government’s slogan is: “A better life for all”. That is nothing less than gallows humour.]
Ms G L MAHLANGU-NKABINDE: Mr Chairperson, what really surprised me as I was listening to the debate is that when people’s lives improve, some hon members in this House get threatened. The question is: Why? The advantage that some of us have is that we are drawn from poverty. We did not read about it in books or see pictures of children who do not have food. We were those children ourselves. [Interjections.]
I stand here as a proud South African who can pride myself on being part of a group of hon members who have changed the lives of many South Africans for the better in less than a decade. Their lives could not have been what they are today had it not been for this Parliament. South Africa was isolated from the rest of the world but what we did since 1994 was mainly to restore pride and confidence in our fellow South Africans. We also succeeded in putting South Africa back to where she belongs in the global community.
With regard to the rest of the world, including our mother continent of Africa, we can state this without any fear of contradiction that, in less than one decade, we have transformed our country from being an international pariah, a negative force in favour of racism, reaction, destabilisation, aggression and war to an important international player for democracy, social progress, national independence and quality and peace. These words were said by President Mbeki at the ANC policy conference last month. We have engaged the Government’s poverty-alleviation programme to make sure that the enabling legislation we pass in this House reaches the intended targets in making life worthwhile for our people. As I speak here today, there are more than 4 million visitors who came to our country in the first seven months of this year. Needless to mention, there are jobs that these visits create. The rate of the creation of new SMMEs in this industry all the time is also growing.
Minister Moosa expressed his delight that South Africa continues to defy gravity when measured against the global tourism scene. South Africa is one of the best performing tourism destinations in the world, thanks to this august House for the Tourism Amendment Act, which empowers local people who were historically disadvantaged and previously isolated in their own country to see themselves as equal partners and not as servants, while other people enjoy their lives. A lot still needs to be done in this regard.
We will spare no effort to free our fellowmen, women and children from abject and dehumanising conditions of extreme poverty to which more than a billion of them are currently subjected. We are committed to make the right development a reality for everyone and to freeing the entire human race from want.
On 15 September last year, the procurement management of the Department of Environmental Affairs and Tourism advertised in the local newspapers inviting prospective services and equipment suppliers to register as SMMEs and BEE on an accredited departmental database.
I am more than proud to work with Minister Moosa and Deputy Minister Mabudafhasi, who took a decision to use SMMEs at all times for all services needed by the Department. Tomorrow, the Deputy Minister will launch November as an environmental month in KwaZulu-Natal. The local women are excited because they and nobody else are charged with the logistics of this big occasion. Well done, comrades! Keep it up! The Minister is in India attending a meeting on climate change and the Deputy Minister is acting as Minister. Obviously, I understand why they are not here. They deserve a big hand for that. [Applause.]
The parliamentary committee on environmental affairs and tourism scrutinised the department on their criteria for poverty relief projects and are happy that, from this exercise, at least 600 suppliers have been successfully registered - more than 247 BEE have been incorporated as part of transformation in an effort to support black business, Thlala e Mokosing. The portfolio committee insists that there should be rotation of suppliers on a regular basis to give equal opportunities for BEE to be transparent, equitable and effective in terms of the Constitution and keep reliable data that will be updated from time to time.
The annual tourism indaba this year proved that disadvantaged people have a say in their country. They exhibited in Durban and some of them, for the first time ever, will be at the World Travel Market in London later this month to exhibit. They will be exhibiting alongside other countries and I am very happy to mention that members of this august House - Ramotsamai, Mbuyazi, Moss and Kalako - were in Durban to ensure participation of the SMMEs at the indaba.
I do not know what empowerment would be if this is not empowerment but I am sure that the hon Sono would be able to tell me. [Interjections.]
Ka Sesotho ba re “ke sono”. Sono ke sono [Interjections.] [In Sesotho they say: Oh, what a pity! It’s a pity.]
We continue to say - the hon brother Joe does not know what it means - that we are now world players in tourism, and, as we do so, we carry with us lots of South Africans. We usher in hope to the youth of this country that their future resources are in safe hands.
Another area where we have performed well is by calling for public hearings in respect of the adoption of the Legal Resources Management Act. We radically changed what we inherited, which was a mess indeed. Today we speak of fewer and fewer paper quota holders who have, through the department, dedicated an allocations unit with the capacity to verify all the applications for fishing and to allocate the resource in terms of measurable criteria and conditions. After the adoption of this Act, we saw hundreds of fishermen who marched to Parliament to thank the Minister. Where else in the world does one experience that?
The issue of long-term rights, an issue debated by hon members, for all species will definitely boost confidence in the industry, especially to new entrants, the poorest of the poor who can now acquire credit.
Since the late seventies, up to 200 Japanese and Taiwanese fishing vessels have been issued with annual fishing permits to catch tuna in South African waters. This is a practice we inherited from the apartheid regime, a situation we as parliamentarians were never happy about. But, today, one can say with pride that the bilateral agreement with Taiwan has been cancelled and the next permits to Japan will be for six months only and then they will be terminated. Emphasizing the objectives of Nepad, Minister Moosa said:
Allowing foreign fleets access to fish in South African waters undermines the ability of coastal developing states to develop their own fisheries.
I want to thank the hon the Minister and the portfolio committee. These resources will now go to South Africans, creating more jobs and eradicating poverty. [Applause.]
In conclusion, we will continue to engage with Government to ensure implementation. Poverty is a terror facing humanity, the terror of not knowing where the next meal will come from, the terror of knowing that one’s children and their children will be condemned to a life of abject poverty, starvation, illiteracy and ill health. This needs all of us as a collective and only then can we succeed. To bring the matter closer to home: We as a Parliament have a budget and the people of the Western Cape should be better off because Parliament is here. Our legislation calls for equal opportunities. Our legislation calls for historically disadvantaged people’s involvement in the economy of their country, not to be spectators anymore, and that is what the Speaker said.
Do we as legislators ensure markets for these people? Often, we do not. Parliament can change the lives of many more other people, especially in this province. Regarding the figures for people who visit Parliament, where are these visitors accommodated? Who transports them? Where do they buy their air tickets? If these questions can be answered, we can stand firmly here and say: We are going in the right direction, because the struggling bed-and-breakfast outlets will now start having business as well.
Debate concluded.
INTELLIGENCE SERVICES CONTROL AMENDMENT BILL,
NATIONAL STRATEGIC INTELLIGENCE AMENDMENT BILL,
INTELLIGENCE SERVICES BILL,
ELECTRONIC COMMUNICATIONS SECURITY (PTY) LTD BILL
(Second Reading debate)
The MINISTER OF INTELLIGENCE: Chairperson, when I heard you saying something about an important debate, I thought that maybe you were talking about my important debate.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! That was the first important debate that was concluded, and now we have another very important debate before us.
The MINISTER OF INTELLIGENCE: Chairperson, thank you very much for the qualification.
My colleagues - the hon Nqakula and the hon Maduna - and I spent the better part of the yesterday visiting the scenes of the bombings in Soweto. At first, when we went down, we were not sure if we were not presenting a picture of a very scared Government - all three security Ministers there. But, finally, we decided that we needed to be there because we wanted to go and assure our communities, our people - the innocent law-abiding South Africans - that are victims of these bombings that this kind of desperate attention-seeking strategies will not work, and that the security services of this Government are more than able to deal with this. We were able to give these assurances because we have invested so much time in ensuring that in fact, we can turn to our security agencies to deal with exactly this.
We are hoping that very soon we can come back here and explain to the House our successes in this regard. For us in the intelligence community, this has meant a complete restructuring of the intelligence dispensation to ensure that we are able to deal with the scourge of terrorism of our day. The four Bills before us today, underpin that restructuring process and, indeed, with their passing, we will have completed this restructuring.
With the concurrence of the ad hoc committee, we have agreed that the most logical way to deal with this, at this hour of the day - we do not mind having it pushed back by such an important debate such as the one on poverty - is to deal with all these four Bills together. It will therefore make a compact set of Bills that we are presenting to the House. The four Bills that we are presenting to the House are the Intelligence Services Bill, 2002; the Electronic Communications Security (Pty) Ltd Bill, 2002; the National Strategic Intelligence Amendment Bill and the Intelligence Services Control Amendment Bill, as read out by the Secretary.
In case of the new Bill - the Intelligence Services Control Amendment Bill
- the Intelligence Services Act was promulgated in 1995 with the intention of ensuring that the six statutory and non-statutory services predating the 1994 dispensation could be integrated and could form the two statutory bodies that we now have - which is the South African Secret Services and the National Intelligence Services. However, since the inception of the intelligence dispensation in 1995, there has been no consistent order under which the intelligence services are governed. Whilst the intelligence services were excluded from the broad public service dispensation, we were also excluded from some provisions of the Labour Relations Act. We thus fell outside of this broad framework that is laid down for all agencies and services employed by the Government.
We have decided that we are going to bring the intelligence services within some kind of structured framework. In short, this is the purpose of this first Bill that we are bringing to the House. The Bill addresses five main issues. I hope this will interest Baba Mlangeni. I hope he is listening. The first thing that we seek to do is to ensure that all those men and women who worked so hard in the non-statutory services in the intelligence capacity that brought our Government to where we are now are adequately remunerated for work that they have done. [Applause.] So what we are doing is back-dating the pension of those people whom we integrated in our services and also those who fell outside of our services for the work that was done before the integration processes. Mentioning Baba Mlangeni did not mean that I have a pension for him. I was just using him as an example. [Laughter.] However, the Bill provides for the cut-off date of 31 March 2004 for the availability of this benefit.
The second thing that the Bill seeks to do is to provide a council which will be called the Intelligence Services Council on the Conditions of Service. In short, this will do what the Public Service Commission does for the Public Service, which is basically to regulate and standardise the conditions of service throughout the intelligence community. The third thing that the Bill seeks to do, is to create a lifelong membership in intelligence, which is probably why we have the hon Van Schalkwyk in our community. The creation of a lifelong membership of the intelligence services is geared towards producing and retaining the best officers for continuity, cohesion and mentorship of new members. This has led us to the realisation that the cut-off age of 60 for most civil services will not work for us. Therefore, we are requesting that it must be pushed back to
- Therefore, we are asking that the intelligence services retirement age be 65. This will strike a chord with most members of Parliament. The fourth element that we are seeking in this Bill is the establishment of the National Intelligence Academy. The Bill seeks to establish and regulate an academy for intelligence which will provide intelligence training, and this will be called the Sania. It will give our cadres the skills and expertise that will keep them at the cutting edge of knowledge and technology that is so vital for their trade. The Sania will also provide lateral entrants who bring in scarce skills with the training that is needed for their work.
We are faced with challenges of survival and with constantly innovating and improving our services. Therefore, we are hoping that the Sania will provide this cornerstone of our work to ensure that, indeed, we can keep the services at the cutting edge of all that is necessary for the delivery of an excellent service. The academy will be a national institute that will train all state agencies dealing with collection and assessment of information such as the SAPS, the Scorpions, the SARS, etc. In fact, the academy will have a research segment and any enterprising member of Parliament is free to come and spend his sabbatical researching our archives. Perhaps we might profit more from what might come out of there.
Finally, this Bill seeks restraint of trade. It seeks to ensure that former members of the intelligence services are forbidden from disclosure of classified information which is prohibited without the approval of the director-general. Their employment in the security industry is restricted for a period of three years. They may not be employed for a period of three years in any security agency unless permission is granted by the DG.
The second Bill that we are putting forward to members here today is the Electronic Communications Security (Pty) Ltd - the Comsec Bill. The provision of national security is a pivotal core business of the Government. This function requires innovation, creativity and a steady supply of human resources and financial resources. When it comes to technology, this is an even more costly venture. To ensure that we are able to provide national security at a cost-effective rate, we have sought to create a company. This company will be called the Electronic Communications (Pty) Ltd.
The functions of Comsec Ltd are to protect Government’s critical electronic communications against unauthorised access or other related technical threats. For purposes of the above-mentioned functions, Comsec will invent, develop, design, procure, install or maintain secure communications throughout government departments. It will provide cryptographic services and the necessary training for the upkeep of all these communications. All government departments and organs of state will have to procure and access electronic communications products and systems with the verification and approval of this company. However, departments or state organs may be exempted from application of this Act with permission of the Minister.
Where Comsec Ltd integrates agencies or a government establishment, providing communication system and product, the assets, liabilities, rights and duties of that integrated structure will be acquired by Comsec. Our courts will impose penalties for contravention of the provision of this Bill, once it has been passed.
The third Bill is the National Strategic Intelligence Amendment Bill and it is not a new Bill. The tragic events of 11 September 2001 in the United States has brought home the danger of unco-ordinated intelligence to all intelligence services. Learning from this tragic experience and our own shortcomings, we have decided to take stock of our own inter-agency co- operation and co-ordination. We conducted a review of Nicoc - the National Intelligence Co-ordinating Committee established in 1995.
This review led us to the identification of the following inadequacies: Lack of consistent co-operation between the Nicoc member services and departments with regard to the supply of intelligence to Nicoc and therefore, directly to the Government; lack of common understanding by the Nicoc members of the exact meaning of intelligence activities, and lack of understanding of proper execution of the mandates of the intelligence services.
Therefore, the amendment seeks to rectify all these weaknesses and, amongst other things, to strengthen the legal mandate of Nicoc and to provide that the SAPS co-ordinates all crime intelligence and supplies crime intelligence relating to national security through NICOC. Furthermore, the amendment provides for the regulations on, amongst other things, the security clearance, investigation and the protection of information.
Finally, we have the Intelligence Services Control Amendment Bill. The Principal Act, which is the Intelligence Services Control Act of 1994, provides for oversight of intelligence services by a parliamentary committee and the monitoring of activities of the intelligence services by an Inspector-General or more. In this regard, the principal Act has proven to be inadequate with regard to the oversight of financial activities of the intelligence services and the functioning of the office of the Inspector-General in that there are no clear lines of accountability for the Inspector-General and no clear guidelines for his functions.
The objectives of this amending Bill are, amongst others, to give the Joint Standing Committee on Intelligence sole responsibility over financial oversight of the intelligence services; to provide security clearance for the Chairperson of the Joint Standing Committee on Intelligence; to provide for the appointment of one Inspector-General for all the intelligence services; to regulate the termination of service and the removal from office of any Inspector-General; to regulate the functions of the Inspector- General and, thus, the IG will only monitor the intelligence and counter- intelligence functions of the intelligence services, and the IG will notify the head of a service before he/she gains access to property belonging to the services for the purposes of search and seizure.
We have made sure that all those matters that were vague in the initial legislation are now very clearly spelt out in this Bill. I am being rushed through by the clock that is ticking ferociously next to me. Therefore, I will rush to the conclusion and say that these are the four Bills that we are bringing before the House. The ad hoc committee that was put up by the House has done sterling work in a very short space of time. They have sought to build consensus and have accommodated many of our needs. We are very grateful for that. Despite the hiccups that accompany such an ad hoc process of law-making, I would like to commend them for their understanding. They have delivered on the mandate given to them by this Parliament.
Transparency formed the cornerstone of their work at the committee stage. The public was invited to participate through making written and verbal representations. This involvement was an indication that the law that governs the intelligence services of this country is made by the people for the defence and protection of peace and democracy and of all civil liberty.
We believe that with this package of legislation, we are providing a critical edge for our services over their competitors, creating a conducive working environment that will ensure that they do their best at all times. We provide the legal framework for them to continue working to push back the frontiers of poverty by searching for opportunities abroad, thwarting threats domestically, and frustrating those that seek to profit from our hard-won democracy. It is in the quest for excellence that we are shunning mediocrity.
I therefore request the support of the hon members of this House. I take this opportunity, once again, to thank, from the bottom of my heart, all those members of the ad hoc committee who made this possible, the members of the Joint Standing Committee on Intelligence and, of course, my hard- working staff at the Ministry. [Applause.]
Dr S C CWELE: Chairperson, hon Minister, hon members, today we debate four pieces of legislation that aim to overhaul our intelligence dispensation to be in line with our policy of making our intelligence structures more efficient, effective, professional and accountable to the people of South Africa.
This debate takes place one day after the senseless bombings in Soweto. These criminals will never beat the resilience of our people in protecting our democracy and our unity in the quest for a better life for all. We would like to stress that there is no organisation which has the capacity to overthrow our Government.
We would like to pass our condolences on to the bereaved families and the affected communities. We are confident that our intelligence structures and security forces are on top of the situation and will soon bring this small clique of senseless and directionless criminals to book. We call upon our members of the public to be vigilant and not to handle any suspicious parcels, but to call our national crime stop number. We urge members of the public to co-operate with the members of our security establishment.
The Intelligence Services Control Amendment Bill strengthens the oversight for intelligence by making all new structures of intelligence accountable to the Minister, Auditor-General, Inspector-General and to the public through the Joint Standing Committee on Intelligence via Parliament. The Bill further clarifies the functions of the Inspector-General to focus on the operational intelligence oversight in the form of monitoring the intelligence and counterintelligence functions of the services. The Inspector-General will be accountable to the Minister for Intelligence, the Minister of Defence, the Minister of Safety and Security, the President and to the Joint Standing Committee on Intelligence.
As hon members might be aware, our Inspector-General resigned in February this year. We are in the process of finalising the new regulations regarding the functioning of the office of the Inspector-General. The Joint Standing Committee on Intelligence will be putting up an advertisement for nominations next month, calling for South Africans of integrity and those who have the understanding of the intelligence community to apply. The Bill strengthens the JSCI’s responsibility of maintaining financial oversight over intelligence services. We hope that this will resolve the problem being faced by other committees of Parliament, such as the Select Committee on Public Accounts, in effectively scrutinising the finances of the services.
The National Strategic Intelligence Amendment Bill seeks to enhance the effectiveness and efficiency of our intelligence structures by improving its co-ordination of intelligence. It strengthens the National Intelligence Co-ordinating Committee - Nicoc - by putting an obligation on all intelligence structures to forward all strategic intelligence to Nicoc for processing, analysis or development of intelligence products. This is critical in avoiding the intelligence gaps, as we witnessed in the unfortunate incident of September 11, 2001.
As South Africans, we take pride in the fact that since this US incident, a number of intelligence organisations and oversight committees from the developed world and Africa have visited South Africa to learn from our intelligence co-ordination. In strengthening our crime prevention strategy, the Bill empowers the intelligence division of the SA Police Services to receive and co-ordinate all technical intelligence in order to prevent crime and prosecute offenders.
We are living in a hostile and competitive world, hence the protection of our secrets, strategic information and key positions have to be strengthened by improving our counterintelligence capabilities. The Bill clarifies the process of vetting as a counterintelligence function by detailing the procedures for vetting in the Bill rather than the regulations. This will inform any person what to expect if one has to undergo security clearance in South Africa. The Cabinet passed Minimum Information Security Standards also known as the MISS document in 1997 in order to ensure the observance of security of information in our departments. The departments did not respond well to this policy. This Bill legalises the MISS document in order to criminalise the non-implementation of this policy.
The Intelligence Services Bill, as the hon Minister has said, amongst other things, establishes the Intelligence Services Council on the conditions of services. It also establishes the SA National Intelligence Academy to train our cadets and intelligence officers. It also provides for the restraint of trade for former members of intellegence.
The Electronic Communications Security (Pty) Ltd Bill provides for the establishment of a private company - Comsec (Pty) Ltd - to protect and secure critical electronic communications of all organs of the state. To achieve this objective, the company will provide research, development and training to the users of electronic communication. Comsec will receive funding from the national fiscus, donations, bequests and cost recovery done on the basis of service level agreements.
Contrary to what has been published in the media, Comsec is not a communications service provider, but a defensive mechanism to protect and secure the electronic communication of the state. The company is envisaged to be self-sufficient in the next few years, and it may acquire shares in strategic companies in South Africa, with the view to support this mandate.
We would like to thank the task team under the leadership of the Director- General for Communications, Mr Andile Ngcaba, and his team who worked very hard in preparing for the production of this Bill. We would also like to thank the Ministry, the heads of the national intelligence structures, and all the intelligence officers who contributed to these Bills. The committee would also like to thank our legal adviser - Takalani - and the state law advisers who assisted the ad hoc committee during the consideration of these Bills. We would also like to thank all those who participated in our public hearings, despite the short deadlines. We thank our NCOP counterparts for active participation in the processing and finalisation of these Bills.
The ANC and the Joint Standing Committee on Intelligence supports the amended Intelligence Services Control Amendment Bill, National Strategic Intelligence Amendment Bill, Intelligence Services Bill and the Electronic Communications Security (Pty) Ltd Bill. We move that this House adopts these Bills. [Applause.]
Brig Gen P J SCHALKWYK: Chairperson, the hon Minister and hon members, intelligence has become the most important essentiality for the top management of all organs of state to be provided with good and timeous intelligence to ensure that Government is prepared and ready for any damaging acts from any adversary or from natural disasters.
To ensure this, our Government needs to have structures in place which can cater for the whole intelligence and counterintelligence spectrum to provide early warning to the President and Government of any impending threat to the country. This spectrum is so wide that it is difficult to define. It not only rests with activities locally but globally in all the dimensions, which include that on the ground, in upper space and across the oceans.
I can quote the 11 September attack on the World Trade Centre in New York, the Bali explosions, the Moscow theatre tragedy, but here on our doorstep in Gauteng, 10 bombs exploded two nights ago. They were ostensibly directed at the railway lines that are used by black commuters, taxi ranks, a mosque and a temple. We from the Democratic Alliance condemn this act of terrorism and urge Government to use all of its resources to find these criminals or bombers and bring them to court.
We are debating intelligence today and asking ourselves how this could have happened without us being warned? Is it because our intelligence failed us? Time will tell. Our request is that we should prevent any future occurrence of this nature. I think we are all pleased to hear that the Minister and the other two Ministers have visited the scenes of the bombings. I think it is good for the Minister to go and see for herself what happened.
I wish to quote from an article written by Michael Elliot in the Time Magazine of 2 August 2002 regarding the 11 September incident:
Sometimes history is made by the forces of arms on battlefields, sometimes by the fall of an exhausted empire. But often when the historians set about figuring why a nation took one course rather than another or not at all, they are more interested in who said what to whom at a meeting far from the public eye whose true significance may have been missed by those who took part in it.
With all this in mind, South Africa needs quality and well-trained operators and planners who are supported by up-to-date, state-of-the-art equipment. It is for this purpose that we have four Bills before Parliament today. Their purpose is to improve the existing legislation or to provide for additional services. These Bills should not be for the purpose of advancing the aims of one to the detriment of the other.
With regard to the Intelligence Services Control Amendment Bill, the DA
welcomes the name change from control' to oversight’. The responsibility
for the financial oversight of the intelligence service is a big
responsibility, and we may require expertise within the JSCI.
We welcome the opportunity of one inspector-general for all the services. The functions that are allocated to this post are substantial, and the Minister and the committee should make doubly sure that a fit and proper person, someone with stature, undisputed integrity, acceptable academic qualifications and vast managerial experience is appointed. We support this Bill.
With regard to the National Strategic Intelligence Amendment Bill, we mention the National Intelligence Co-ordinating Committee. This is also my pet subject. I always address this subject because this committee has the important responsibility of co-ordinating all intelligence gathered from the National Intelligence Agency, the SA Secret Service and, in addition, the Defence Intelligence Division and the Police Crime Intelligence Division. Co-operation and co-ordination between these services is essential in order for Nicoc, as we refer to it in short, to meet its obligations. Information should be fed into the Nicoc system daily which in turn should make a national intelligence estimate of the situation in South Africa and the countries which have an influence on us.
It is of no use to have a Nicoc which is not collecting and co-ordinating the mass of information available from all the services.
The DA objects to the reference to the organs of state as used in clause 3 of the Bill. The organs of state as defined in section 239 of the Constitution does not restrict it to state departments, but many other functioneries such as the Law Society of South Africa. I do not think that the legislator intended that.
In clause 3, a new section 2A has been inserted. The DA is concerned that the requirements in this section 2A 1(a) are too stringent in such that they stipulate that any person employed by or is an applicant to an organ of state needs to be security cleared. This is impractical and impossible. I can go into details as far as that is concerned. For this reason, we oppose this Bill.
On the Intelligence Services Bill, the DA wishes to highlight the establishment of the South African National Academy of Intelligence. This name is very impressive and the academy will be registered with the SA Qualifications Authority. We should make sure that the right person is also appointed to head this academy. In the first instance, he should have experience in managing a training unit, in managing training, good administration and selecting the right staff. This should not be a job for friends. The DA supports this Bill. Now we come to the Electronic Communications Security (Pty) Ltd Bill, which is generally referred to as the Comsec Bill. The purpose of this Bill is to proviode for the establishment of a company that will provide electronic communications, security products and services of organs of state and to provide for matters connected thereto.
Questions that come to mind are the following: Firstly, why do we have to have a separate establishment to provide these intelligence services? Secondly, why is a private company soley owned by the state, and thirdly, why cannot one of the existing intelligence services be given this responsibility as a separate substructure within the organisation?
This Bill and its contents seem to be very close to the ECT, the Electronic Critical Communications and Transactions Bill, which provides for a declaration of critical databases and for control and security in general. It is a company which is subsidised by the state yet is mandated to buy shares in any company, not necessarily manufacturing security products or providing a security service and which is registered in South Africa. It is also exempted from the Broadcasting and Telecommunications Law and, under certain conditions, from the Companies Act.
In clause 17, we again have reference to the organ of state. There are too many questions which are left unanswered as far as this is concerned. Private companies have repeatedly expressed their concern that Comsec is state-owned and will be encroaching on their own functions and products.
It is a known fact that here in South Africa - members should listen to this and it is true - and in the world at large that intelligence agencies are seen as sinister organisations which, because of the secretiveness of their work, hide behind the myth that they can do whatever they please and are untouchable. This is not the case, but a Bill of this nature such as the Comsec Bill will only fan the flame of suspicion. The DA opposes this Bill.
Finally, I want to thank the Chairman of the JSCI and commend him for his efforts and drive to have these Bills tabled in such a short period. It is unfortunate that it was workshopped during recess period where I, for one, was unable to consult knowledgeable members of my caucus over this period. This resulted in me changing what I had agreed to during committee deliberations. [Applause.]
Mr D M GUMEDE: Chairperson, the hon Minister, hon members and comrades, as we open taps, turning desserts into green fields, switch on lights in more poor households, and as Africa rises from a long nightmare of poverty and ignorance, opportunities spring up and, with them, more and varied threats emerge.
A relatively new form of threat is in the field of information operations where it is no longer necessary for people or organisations to have direct physical access to a phone or a computer in order to listen, copy, destroy or manipulate data and information. This has created a need for us to protect our information and our information infrastructure against a number of hostile agents.
Although security measures are in place to protect the country’s telecommunications infrastructures, the development of attack tools to bypass these protective measures is ongoing, and these attack mechanisms are now freely available via the Internet. The number of information infrastructure intrusions grew from 1 334 in 1993 to 15 167 in the year 2000 and increases proportionately to the degree of connectivity to external networks such as that of the Internet, according to the Canadian Intelligence Service. According to this service, such connections create vulnerabilities that can be exploited for whatever reason by hostile actors using malicious software such as viruses, Trojan horses and worms via the Internet.
The need for protection against cybercrime, cyberterrorism, netspionage, hacktivism, which is hacking, etc has to be increased and constantly developed. This needs a substantial amount of ongoing research and development and massive resources that are immediately available, and we know that as new technologies develop, so too will the technology of hostile agents and criminals. This needs flexibility and various amounts of funding within short notice, which government’s department cannot do. These are the reasons that make it critical to form Electronic Communications Security (Pty) Ltd, which is known as Comsec. Comsec has to respond promptly to a constant sophisticated attack on information and the information infrastructure of South Africa.
It is founded in order to improve protection of critical electronic state information from being abused by those who want to harm South Africa, its people and its interest. It is an instrument to protect South Africans more efficiently, more effectively and better in an area where flexibility, constant research and development are critical. Thus we need a company that is separate from the restriction of government department operations.
Imagine what would have happened to the hostages in the Moscow theatre if the terrorists had known beforehand exactly what the troops were about to undertake!
Comsec will be a defensive organ, and it is not the intention of Government to use it offensively. For example, with today’s technology, it is possible to send a photograph and information for processing of a passport illegaly without the applicant in question setting foot on South African soil. Such acts have to be prevented by information operations of a high international calibre. Successful trade negotiations with other trade blocs such as the EU, Nafta, etc depend on the protection of sensitive and critical information that the state has, which has to be used by the state at the right place, at the right time and for a specific purpose.
These operations definitely cannot be left in the hands of a private company whose mandate, agenda and interests may not always coincide with that of the state, as is the position currently. We need a responsive, agile agent that can respond promptly and effectively.
The company will have to raise its own funds and have funds readily available to keep up to date with rapidly changing electronic information technology in the rapidly developing field of information operations. It has come to be known that we have to tap into technology as and when it becomes neccessary, cognizant of the fact that it is not abnormal for an expensive innovation to be obsolete within a short period of three months. The type of lags in Government decision-making is a luxury we cannot afford.
Acquisition of shares with best returns for self-sustenance so as to respond speedily to emergencies and rapidly changing demands of a rapidly changing technology is crucial. Limiting the company to any sector may lead to nonviability, a lack in capacity and lack of competitiveness where research and development, which does not come cheaply, is critical. This is why the company has got to acquire shares in any company. The returns should allow it to be able to fund expensive research and development in a rapidly changing technological environment. Comsec will have to maintain a competitive edge in the industry in order to keep abreast with the state-of-the-art technology, and therefore has to form strategic partnerships with other companies and universities and other institutions of higher learning. For this company to be viable, it has to, at least, meet two critical requirements: it has to have readily available funds and lead in its field of technology. This largely informs the structure and the nature of this company. Any good manager will tell the members that this is the best option for the dictates of this type of situation.
Comsec is defensive and pre-empts abuse of strategic, critical and sensitive state information by sophisticated hostile agents and enemies out there. For example, they may be criminal syndicates, extremists groups and those who want to compete unfairly in international trade.
These developments demand ever-increasing vigilance that can only be sustained by ever-modernising research and development that move faster than that of unscrupulous trade competitors, criminal syndicates and enemies of the state and its people.
Le nkampani entsha izovimba izinhloli nezimpimpi zezitha zikaHulumeni nabantu baseNingizimu Afrika ezilalela izingxoxo zikaHulumeni, izingxoxo zamaphoyisa kanye nezombutho wezempi ukuze zihlele ubugebengu nokuba zilwe nohulumeni wabantu baseNingizimu Afrika. [Ihlombe.] (Translation of Zulu paragraph follows.)
[This new company is going to stop spies and informers who belong to the enemies of the Government and South Africans. Those people eavesdrop on conversations of the Government, the police and the armed forces in order to plan criminal activities and fight the South African Government. [Applause.]]
Mr E T FERREIRA: The IFP believes that there can be no argument that South Africa must have good and effective intelligence services. September 11 of last year, bombings in Cape Town a few years ago and explosions in Gauteng less than 48 hours ago, makes one appreciate the importance of having a good intelligence service.
No intelligence service can be perfect and no intelligence agency can prevent every single attack on a country’s sovereignty or on its people but a good and effective intelligence service can make that risk so much smaller.
In front of us today we have 4 intelligence Bills, the Intelligence Services Bill, the National Strategic Intelligence Amendment Bill, the Intelligence Services Control Amendment Bill and the Electronic Communications Security (Pty) Ltd Bill, better known as the Comsec Bill. Are these Bills in front of us today going to improve the effectiveness of our intelligence agencies? The answer is undoubtedly yes. Currently, our different intelligence agencies seem not that well co-ordinated, with everyone having their own D.G. and everyone basically doing their own thing. There also appears to be a fair amount of duplication in the work done by different agencies as they each operate rather independently.
The IFP supports the Intelligence Services Control Amendment Bill and specifically welcomes that the Joint Standing Committee on Intelligence will have the sole responsibility for the financial oversight of the intelligence services and that the Bill will provide for the appointment of one inspector-general for all the services.
We also support the National Strategic Intelligence Amendment Bill which will establish Nicoc to co-ordinate all intelligence. This Bill will also provide for the SA Police Services to co-ordinate crime intelligence and to supply Nicoc with the necessary information.
Although there were one or two minor contentious issues in the Intelligence Services Bill like the validation of misconduct proceedings and employment in the security industry, the IFP has no problem in supporting the Bill. Some people are nervous about the National Academy of Intelligence. We believe, however, that it will increase the quality of our intelligence operatives. We hope that the stringent requirements set out for operatives will be properly implemented so that we do not have a similar situation as we have in the SAPS. How many of our policemen and women cannot take decent statements and how many of our senior officers have never had police training?
The one Bill that the IFP does not feel completely comfortable with is the Electronic Communications Security (Pty) Ltd Bill, better known as the Comsec Bill. The Bill establishes a private company with the objective to protect and secure electronic communications of organs of state, as we have already heard. The Government will be the sole shareholder of this private company, which is to be exempted from certain provisions of the Companies Act. We do not have a problem with any of the above, as it is important to secure Government communications. We are nervous, however, of Comsec which is, as the House should remember, an arm of the intelligence services, being given authority in this Act to buy shares in any company whatsoever in the Replublic which is registered as a private company.
The argument of the department in the committee deliberations was that Comsec may need to acquire shares in other companies in the same field so that they can be up to date with the latest technologies and products as far as their functions are concerned. This is quite understandable and acceptable. The IFP has no problem with this either.
When I suggested, though, that we should then allow them, in clause 10, to buy shares in any company related to their work, they turned my request down suggesting that a chocolate company is not limited as to who it can buy shares in. The reality of course is that a chocolate company is not an arm of our intelligence service and does not have Government as its sole shareholder. If there is no sinister political reason for the intelligence service wanting to buy into private companies, why is it so unacceptable to only buy into communication-related companies?
However, in the long run, one has to weigh up the positives and the negatives in every single Bill. In this case, we believe that the positives outweigh the negatives. Therefore, the IFP supports the Bill. [Applause.]
Ms M C LOBE: Chairperson, comrades and friends, in the endeavour to build an efficient, effective, professional and accountable intelligene service, the National Strategic Intelligence Amendment Bill seeks to strengthen the co-ordination of intelligence and national strategic intelligence. In this regard, it empowers the Minister to establish necessary structures for the efficient co-ordination of intelligence and to assist in advisory functions for Cabinet. It also provides for the exclusion of the Minister as a member of the National Intelligence Co-ordinating Committee, as a mechanism to draw a distinction between the political responsibility of the Minister of Intelligence and the co-ordinator for intelligence, thereby strengthening accountability and the legal mandate of Nicoc in order to put intelligence at the centre of government business.
Within the broad framework of strength and co-ordination, the Bill also provides for national intelligence structures to supply counter and crime intelligence relating to national strategic intelligence to Nicoc. The security services remain seized with the challenge posed by crime in our country. In this regard, several joint operations or projects between the various agencies are conducted so as to deal with organised crime groups to convert intelligence into evidence admissible in a court of law without undermining the intelligence capacity of our structures.
By this we mean that Nicoc will take over all responsibility over the co- ordination of national strategic intelligence. This co-ordination will assist in strengthening co-operation amongst intelligence structures. It will ensure that intelligence structures complement each other and minimise competition. It will also contribute positively to the usage of our limited resources in the sense that duplication will be eliminated. Co-ordination of intelligence is also necessary for a developing country like ours in order to protect our developing economy and our young democracy.
It is important to know that, as a result of the co-ordinated approach to intelligence, our country has never encountered major intelligence failures, as experienced by bigger countries. But the small isolated incidents, as experienced recently with the Soweto bombings confirm the need to strengthen co-ordination and build an effective, efficient, professional and accountable intelligence service.
Perhaps one should emphasize the fact that since 1994 our intelligence service has been accountable to Parliament through the Joint Standing Committee on Intelligence. Therefore, the Joint Standing Committee performs oversight functions in relation to the intelligence and counter intelligence functions, including administration, financial management and expenditure of the services.
As a result thereof, other countries continue to learn from our model. Not long ago, we hosted a British delegation from the intelligence oversight committee that was interested to learn about our oversight role and our relationship to Parliament. This shows that, as a young democracy, we have something good and unique. Without intelligence, our ability to delve behind the increasingly organised and vicious wave of crime in our country and across our borders will be blinkered. For all this intelligence to be effective it has, in the final analysis, to dip its hands into the closely guarded self-interest of individuals, organisations, economic and government entities.
This brings forth the importance and relevance of security screening and investigations by our national intelligence structures. The Bill provides for the security screening investigation which was provided for in regulations only and not in law. The objective in this regard is to ensure that the vetting process is part of the legislation and captures the intentions of the legislature, noting contravecies and misunderstandings regarding this process.
Over the past few years, security screening constituted a bone of contention and sometimes was met with resistance, particularly because people felt undermined, threatened, their privacy being at stake, and their loyalty and integrity challenged.
I take this opportunity to emphasise the need for security screening investigations as part of counter-intelligence for the purpose of protecting our economy, democracy and our country. National intelligence structures may conduct security screening investigations to determine the security competence of a person employed or who is an applicant to an organ of state or is rendering service or has given an intention to render service on the organ of state a service that will give that person access to classified information to the possesion of the organ of state or service that will give that person access to areas designated as national key points in terms of the National Key Points Act of 1980. Clearly, people who have access to classified information should be people of integrity. In this regard, the Bill also provides for the use of polygraph tests as a mechanism to ascertain, confirm or examine, in a scientific manner, the truthfulness of the statement made by a person. In determining the security clearance of any person, the relevant member of the national intelligence structure may gather information relating to criminal record, financial records, personal information and other relevant information.
In situations where the gathering of information requires the interception and monitoring of the communication of such a person, the relevant member should perform this function in accordance with the provisions of the Interception and Monitoring Act.
The Bill also makes a provision regarding a person whose security clearance has been refused, withdrawn or degraded. In this regard, that person may appeal to the Minister responsible for a relevant national intelligence structure who, in turn, will assess the merits and demerits of such a case. The objective here is to ensure that the security screening is credible and contributes to the building of an efficient and effective intelligence service.
The screening process is part of the international best practice in the sense that, in countries such as Canada, government requires that its employees and contractors who, in the regular performance of their duties, have access to sensitive information and assets be assessed for their loyalty and associated reliability as those related to a national security concern. The Canadian government security policy establishes three levels of security clearance, the first one being confidential, the second, secret and the third, top secret. Checks are performed for each level and include the verification of personal and educational and employment data and references. The Canadian security intelligence service Act defines a security assessment as an appraisal of loyalty to Canada in so far as it relates to the reliability of the individual.
This model is similar to the South African model in the sense that, even in our country, we have a similar provision. I take this opportunity to emphasise that the objective of the security screening process is two-fold: firstly, to protect classified information and assets and, secondly, to prevent unathourised access to sensitive government sites on national key points. It is the duty of our intelligence services to conduct background investigation and provide security assessment so that individuals involved in hostile foreign intellignece activities or criminal activities do not have access to classified material or national key points. The Bill will provide a framework within which the national intelligence structures are empowered to carry out these responsibilities. [Applause.]
Mrs M E OLCKERS: Mr Chairperson, I would like to thank the officials who were involved during the discussions by the Ad Hoc Committee on Intelligence on these Bills. It required long hours of intense deliberations and concentration, and our thanks go to the chairperson and the staff. On behalf of the New NP, I would also like to thank everybody who was involved for taking note of our arguments and trying to incorporate some of these in the four Bills before us.
There are two buzzwords these days that are often used in various contexts.
The one is globalisation'', and the other isdelivery.’’ A country owes
it to its citizens to see to it that intelligence services can also
compete, as far as possible, on a global scale because crime does not
respect border or climate, the rich or the poor, black or white. Crime is
global, and so should our intelligence services be. But, to play that role,
we need to give them the tools to enable them to be proactive as far as
possible. These Bills before us today are about those tools.
We plead in this House, almost daily, for better service delivery, but I am sure most of us do not think about intelligence as also having a vital role to play in delivery, by timeously informing their clients about impending crimes. If South Africa falls behind on these two issues, inter alia, we are heading for disaster. It is therefore a positive move to establish a national intelligence academy. The academy will have university accreditation, and certificates, diplomas or degrees will be available. Through this institution, we hope to train professional and exceptional intelligence officials and operatives.
The Intelligence Services Bill regulates the establishment of this facility, conditions of service, and retirement age of staff as well as disciplinary measures and processes. It also regulates the establishment of an Intelligence Services Council on Conditions of Service and a forum for members with grievances because no member of the intelligence service or the academy may strike or induce or conspire with any other member to strike.
Die aanstelling van die Inspekteur-Generaal van Intelligensie is ook al geruime tyd uitstaande. Vorige ondervinding in hierdie proses, asook onduidelike diensvoorwaardes, het duidelik laat blyle dat regstelling nodig was. Die Intelligensiedienste-Beheerkonsepwet reguleer die proses wat gevolg moet word en stel die diensvoorwaardes van die inspekteur-generaal duidelik. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraph follows.)
[The appointment of the Inspector-General of Intelligence has also been outstanding for quite some time. Previous experience in this process, as well as unclear conditions of service, made it apparent that rectification was necessary. The draft Intelligence Services Control Bill regulates the process that should be followed and clarifies the conditions of service of the inspector-general.]
During the debate on the Broadcasting Amendment Bill on 23 October this year in this House, the hon Sue Vos of the IFP said, and I quote:
Given the intensely political nature of the terrain of this battle, vigilance is required. One needs to ask, for instance, why the Electronic Communications Security (Pty) Ltd Bill has just been shepherded through the intelligence committee, and not where it obviously belongs, ie in the communications domain.
Not all of us can surely be so naive as to not wonder why it was steered through the safer waters of the intelligence committee - surely less intimately familiar with the subject matter - and, needless to say, survived relatively intact. The stormy seas of the communications committee would, no doubt, have been a different matter. Over and over again in our committee, we have to address matters of constitutionality, and ``executive creep’’ into the public and private domain of the ICT sector.
I find this an arrogant and unenlightened statement by the member because she has obviously not read the whole Bill before us today, or she would have seen that it deals with intelligence and not about her phoning a friend. She has also never attended a Joint Standing Committee on Intelligence meeting because these meetings are closed. What on earth would give her the audacity to think that more intelligent and vigilant members serve on the Portfolio Committee on Communications than on the JSCI? Is it her ignorance because our meetings are not discussed in newspapers and on television, and therefore she thinks we are all asleep in those meetings? This is also a grave motion of no confidence in her colleague who serves on the JSCI. Much deliberation and many hours of discussions went into the Electronic Communications Security (Pty) Ltd Bill. It is necessary to provide a secure communication facility to the head of state from and to wherever he may be. [Interjections.]
With the advent of cyber terrorism a few years ago, no communication is deemed safe anymore. The numerous efforts - approximately 140 attempts - to crack computer systems in South Africa prior to and during the special events coming to South Africa, highlighted the necessity for a secure communication system in South Africa. These special events happen more frequently, and delegates in larger numbers attend these summits.
Comsec will be able to charge consultancy fees and build up financial reserves so as to enable it to keep abreast with the fast-changing and expensive technology. Intelligence services in some of the leading countries of the world told the JSCI that the shelf life of technology is 90 days. After 90 days, there is something new or better on the market. To try to keep up with these changes, a country needs to spend more and more on this facility. Therefore, the reserves built up by Comsec will assist in this respect.
In our efforts to establish a world-class intelligence service, the New NP supports all four Bills. [Applause.]
Mr S ABRAM: Mr Chairperson, we also wish to join in echoing all the messages of sympathy that have been expressed with regard to the victims of the bomb blasts during the course of the week. Our hearts go out to those two young orphans who have lost their sole supporter and their mother in this particular process.
But what reminds one is that the sort of operations we have seen during the week are reminiscent of what the Ossewa-Brandwag did in the 1940s. They too went for certain strategic installations, for example, railway lines to demobilise the community, electricity sub-stations, etc. One thus sees a sort of correlation between the operations of those days and those we have witnessed this week. Of course, the thought in the minds of most of our fellow countrypeople is: Where next, and who will be the next victims? We pray to Almighty God that our services will put in every effort to track down the perpetrators and that our communities can live in peace and harmony, as we are well on our way to nation-building.
The concept Bill proposes the establishment of a company which will provide electronic communication security products and services to organs of state. The proposed company will be established as a private company in terms of the Companies Act, with the state as the sole shareholder. The main purpose of the company will be to protect and secure certain electronic communications of organs of state against unauthorised access of other related technical or electronic threats. The company will be managed by a board of directors, one of whom would be the chief executive officer. In addition, the company will integrate agencies of the state which provide services similar to those of Comsec.
During a GCIS media briefing, the question was raised whether the company would be a rival to Telkom. The Director-General of NIA, Mr Vusi Mavimbela, replied that Comsec is intended to supply communications security in the same way that the State Information Technology Agency functions for information, in that government departments will have comprehensive communications security.
During the same media briefing, the Minister of Intelligence Services explained the rationale behind the new intelligence legislation. The demands of globalisation have brought about many challenges for intelligence services across the world. The four new Bills under discussion are therefore the result of these new challenges in that it has become incumbent upon all intelligence services to improve the skills and trade craft of their members.
The legislation under discussion should assist in changing the operational environment by balancing secrecy and transparency, focusing on human security issues that are transnational in nature, and finding innovative ways of securing the state and the nation. As far as one of the measures is concerned, the most significant result of that proposed legislation will be the establishment of the SA National Academy of Intelligence. It is envisaged that the proposed SA National Academy will be a national resource for intelligence, research and training. The academy will be responsible for ensuring that every member of the intelligence service is multiskilled and equipped to perform optimally in the conditions facing South Africa.
The main features of the National Strategic Intelligence Amendment Bill are to redefine the mandate of the National Intelligence Agency, together with that of the Crime Intelligence Directorate of the SA Police Service. The SAPS will be given the responsibility of co-ordinating crime intelligence in all intelligence departments.
We will support all four Bills. [Applause.]
Mr R P ZONDO: Mr Chairperson, the ANC regards the establishment of the SA National Academy of Intelligence as a step further away from the painful past, where education and training was characterised by a fragmented system based along racial and ethnic lines. For example, the former TBVC products resulted in the unequal access to education and training at all levels of the system. This had a devastating effect on the development of the economy and the society.
The Intelligence Services Bill seeks to provide training of loyal, competent and acknowledgeable cadets for the intelligence community to enable them to generate the required product timeously and of a high standard and quality. This is also aimed at promoting peace and stability in South Africa, within the SADC region and the continent of Africa. Individuals are recruited from society. Such recruits need to be trained as they are technically cadets without formal intelligence training. It is envisaged that the academy will provide education and training to orientate them into the intelligence culture and provide them with a professional qualification that certifies them as intelligence professionals. It is further envisaged that new recruits to the intelligence community through the academy will not be restricted to university graduates but will also include talented young people who have passed Grade 12 or its equivalent. The infusion of such young blood would add continuity to the current intelligence community.
We need to accept the harsh reality that the intelligence culture pre-1994 was characterised by negligence due to bureaucratic design, ignorance brought about by racial prejudices, apartheid and apathy mainly due to the security state existence that exposed political and social expediency. The retraining is a total commitment of the ANC-led Government towards equitable democratic rights, the prevalence of the rule of law in our country and has as its fundamental philosophy the development of existing members of the intelligence community into key assets to be utilized to ensure that national security is achieved and human security challenges in South Africa met. This vital piece of transformation legislation, in my view, is aimed at killing the remaining apartheid legacy with kindness by restoring pride and dignity due to the fact that the previous law taught people what to think and not how to think.
With the restructuring of the intelligence community to incorporate the academy, a backlog of training has occurred. To address this backlog, it is envisaged that a priority list for training be drafted in consultation with the various structures of the intelligence community under the auspices of the National Intelligence Co-ordinating Committee and the Minister of Intelligence Services. All qualifications offered by the academy will be South African Qualification Authority-approved certificates underwritten by the academy intelligence defence sector’s: education and training authority. Hence, all qualifications of the academy will incorporate the various SAQA- approved levels of qualifications which will facilitate lateral entrance of recruits. This will also allow continuity in formal studies of such recruits through the academy and its respective qualifications.
The other general powers of the Minister are the appointment of the Intelligence Service Council. One of the main aims of the council is to provide a mechanism that will ensure that labour relations are regulated effectively within the intelligence dispensation by members in the determination of conditions of services, and will set up infrastructures towards that end. This infrastructure is the consultation forum and will be staffed by full-time members of the Intelligence Services who will represent fellow members’ interests. This is to ensure that there are no trade unions that operate within the services, as these are likely to undermine national security and lead to unauthorised disclosure of classified information. The council will consult with the Public Service Collective Bargaining Chamber in Public Service. This is an innovation aimed at making sure that we do not falter on those issues highlighted in the Constitutional Court judgment against the Department of Defence. In so doing, we will have taken all the necessary measures to ensure that we are not found wanting in this regard.
Disciplinary measures will also be governed by the provisions of the Bills and will be supplemented by comprehensive internal policies and regulations promulgated by the chief executive officer of the academy according to the norms of Government and the specifics of the intelligence community. The CEO and the staff of the academy will strive at all times to maintain a high level of professionalism in the performance of their duties and functions. The CEO and staff of the academy shall strive at all times to be efficient in the utilization of resources for the performance of the duties and functions, as well as ensuring that such utilization is done in as transparent a manner as possible. The Promotion of Access to Information Act must be applied.
The CEO shall report to Parliament, in conjunction with the Minister of Intelligence Services, on the progress for the preceding year in the achievement of the objectives of the academy as well as on the utilization of all assets and resources, including the annual budget of the academy. All records of the academy shall be subject to the scrutiny of the Auditor- General and the Inspector-General of the intelligence community. In addition, the CEO shall report to the Joint Standing Committee on Intelligence on any issues pertaining to the academy for which such information has been requested by the committee.
In conclusion, njengoba sizwana ukuthi: Bjale ke nako! The academy can provide support to the African Union by using Nepad as a vehicle to achieve this. The academy in turn can promote political stability, continental security and mutual economic growth and development through the sharing of training opportunities of African Union members by incorporating such opportunities in the Nepad agreement with such countries. This will go a long way to ensuring that the academy becomes the foremost training authority for intelligence training on the African continent.
The ANC supports the Bills. [Applause.]
Mr L M GREEN: Chairperson, time does not allow me to comment on all four Bills but I would like to comment on a few of them. I come to the Intelligence Services Control Amendment Bill. As a young and new democracy, we embarked on a path which many old democracies have taken, namely, the civilian oversight of our intelligence services by our Joint Standing Committee on Intelligence and the Inspector-General of Intelligence.
One of the many challenges that we faced as the JSCI was to find the right person to fill the position of the Inspector-General. In addition, there were insufficient regulations to govern the functions of the Inspector- General and to provide for the appointment of suitable personnel to the Office of the IG.
I am satisfied, as a member of the JSCI, that the Intelligence Services Control Amendment Bill now addresses all previous shortcomings. The ACDP is also in full support that the President should appoint only one Inspector- General. In the past few years, the JSCI has debated at length the issue of keeping costs down without compromising the quality of oversight of intelligence services. The appointment of a single Inspector-General, if the right candidate can be found, will not compromise the quality of oversight. More does not necessarily mean better.
Regarding the Electronic Communications Security (Pty) Ltd Bill or Comsec Bill, we are living in a fast-changing modern world where the latest state- of-the-art computer chips become redundant within three to six months after being released. As a result, intelligence services throughout the world are taking precautions against sophisticated computer hackers, unauthorised persons who have the ability to access sophisticated state computers and who can crack computer passwords and codes with equipment that can be bought at any local computer shop. It is therefore important for the state to take preventive action and remain at the cutting edge of electronic communications. Hence the need for the Comsec Bill.
If Comsec has, as one of its objectives, the development of the ability to stop hackers gaining valuable and sensitive state information, then the company becomes vital in protecting critical electronic communication. There seems to be scepticism in the state’s intention in creating a private company to combat cybercrime. We do not want to do this. However, we will monitor the outcome and the process.
Finally, the ACDP supports all four intelligence Bills.
Mr R D PIETERSE: Madam Speaker, hon members, if the hon Vos was at the meetings maybe we would have had more time for her, and a much better debate. Ek kan seker maar sê, mooi, Martha! Mooi so! [I suppose I may say: Well done, Martha, well done!]
Sometimes it is important to inform people that just because they serve on a particular committee, it does not mean they have the sole right to intelligence matters. The hon Olckers is right when she says that these members might be questioning their own members who represent them in the committees. It was not a swipe at us but rather at their own members.
When we retire, whether from the police or the army, it is also important that we should not retire our brains as well and be frightened about all kinds of issues. It is silly to be scared just because one has retired. People should keep their brains active. This Government will never give up its responsibility to ensure the safety of South Africans. It did not do so in the past, and will never do so in future.
As we debate these four pieces of legislation, let us not be reckless in our objection to or rejection of them but rather take a global approach, keeping in mind particularly the safety of our children. November is also the month of the child in our Letsema campaign. This Bill seeks to establish a company to provide electronic communication products and matters that are connected to organs of state. This company will be called Comsec. This will be an ordinary company doing extraordinary things. This company, from time to time, will require to be exempted from certain provisions of the Company’s Act. This request will be forthcoming from the company to the Minister of Trade and Industry and must be fully motivated.
The Registrar of Companies will publish such requests with full motivation by notice in the Gazette. Such companies are not unique or new to the democratic world. In terms of international standards, quite a few countries have established such companies long before we even had a democratic Government. It is also imporant to note that this company called Comsec will not be in competition with any service provider including Telkom, Easytel and Transtel. Representatives of Transtel and Telkom can rest easily and in peace tonight.
I want to inform Mr Bowman and Mr Maphelo that this company is not in competition, and it will not be in competition.
Daarom is daar geen rede tot kommer of bemoeienis, of selfs tot kompetisie nie. Dit sal ‘n suiwer Suid-Afrikaanse maatskappy wees wat met die beste in die wêreld kan saamgesels. Hierdie maatskappy sal deur ‘n raad, soos aangestel deur die Minister van Kommunikasie, ná oorlegpleging met die Kabinet, bestuur en beheer word. Hierdie raadslede sal vir ‘n termyn van ongeveer drie jaar aangestel word, maar dit sal ook deur die Minister van Intelligensie aangepas kan word. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraph follows.)
[There is therefore no reason for concern or interfence or even competition. This will be a purely South African company that will be able to hold their own against the best in the world. This company will be administered and managed by a board appointed by the Minister of Communications after consultation with the Cabinet. The members of this board will be appointed for a period of approximately three years, but this can also be adjusted by the Minister of Intelligence.]
Initially, Comsec will be funded through grants and funds from Parliament as part of the Vote on Intelligence Services. Comsec will be allowed to acquire shares from any other company registered in South Africa, thus becoming less dependent on grants and funds. It is also important to address some of the concerns. If one looks at the IT shares, only a idiot, a person who does not have all his brain cells, will go and invest in IT shares now. One has to give space for this company to look where they can invest and ensure that returns are the best they can be. People who will lead Comsec are people of integrity who will not waste money, and who have the best interest of the country and company at heart.
We cannot allow party politics and concerns about the necessary funding to prevent Comsec from running on all cylinders and provide the necessary protection in terms of telecommunications and other functions. As prevention is better than cure, Comsec will be the prevention that we all aspire for.
The Freedom Charter states that this beautiful country belongs to all of us, black and white. Let us keep this country safe and secure for all of us, black and white. Let us put prevention first.
Allow me to thank the chairperson and the committee as well as the staff. Let me also take this opportunity to thank two outstanding cadres of this country. Our future is indeed in good hands. I thank you Takalani and Dennis. A very special thanks goes to the DG of the Communications, Dr Andile Xaba.
Die ANC steun hierdie vier stukke wetgewing sonder enige voorbehoud. [Applous.] [The ANC supports these four pieces of legislation without reservation.] [Applause.]]
Ms S RAJBALLY: Chairperson and the hon the Minister, in view of the Intelligence Services Control Amendment Bill, the MF is pleased to note the department is on guard to review and fill in the loopholes in the sector. Accountability is one of the most important factors of our Government. The clarity with which the amending Bill serves to address the matter and the duties of the control mechanics over the sector is seen as necessary and in line with national standards.
The amending Bill on national strategic intelligence establishes strong co- ordination of the intelligence sector by the Minister and Nicoc. However, the MF agrees that though oversight has to be maintained by the Minister, the independence of Nicoc from this office is necessary. The proper co- ordination of the intelligence sector is very important to the security of the nation as a whole.
As stated above, the co-ordination of this sector is crucial. The Intelligence Services Bill appears to provide greater clarity and management on a number of matters within the sector, especially the provisions to regulate the unemployment and retirement of persons employed in the intelligence sector. The MF finds this necessary.
The national intelligence services work hard to better the lives of all South Africans. The Electronic Communications Security (PTY) Ltd Bill serves as another safety mechanism.
The MF feels that when a country feels safe, it feels strong and, if one feels strong, one can work hard at being the best.
The MF supports all the above Bills. [Applause.]
Mr L T LANDERS: Chairperson, we conduct this debate in the shadow and tragic aftermath of several terrorist attacks throughout the world. I refer to the 11 September World Trade Centre bombings, the terrorist bombs in Bali, Indonesia, the hostage drama that has just played itself out in a theatre in Moscow, the arrest of the sniper who terrorised people in Washington, Maryland and Virginia in the USA, and, closer to home, the bombings in Soweto yesterday. We share in the sentiments already expressed in this regard. We also conduct this debate in the face of the probable declaration of war on Iraq in order to change the regime in that country. All these events bring added significance to our debate on the four intelligence Bills before this House.
The policy of the ANC is to make South Africa’s intelligence services efficient, effective and yet accountable, so that the tragic events I have referred to can, perhaps, be prevented. The four Bills before this House, read together with the Regulation of Interception of Communications and Provision of Communication-related Information Bill - otherwise known as the Interception and Monitoring Bill - which is before the NCOP, comprise a package of laws that seek to make our intelligence services efficient, effective and yet accountable, such that the provisions of our Constitution are complied with. The package of Bills also seeks to address the enormous leaps made in technological fields.
A strong and unique feature of our intelligence system lies in the co- ordination of that system. It has been proven that most intelligence failures that occur in countries of the world do so because of the lack of, or through, inadequate co-ordination. Whilst the co-ordination of South Africa’s intelligence services is much admired throughout the world, particularly given events subsequent to 11 September, careful attention still needs to be given to this aspect. The package of intelligence Bills before this House, read together with the Interception and Monitoring Bill, seek to achieve an improved co-ordination of our intelligence system. In this way, greater efficiency and accountability will also be achieved. We are satisfied that this objective will be realised through the provisions of the package of Bills before us.
Clauses 27, 28 and 29 of the intelligence services Bill seek to regulate the activities of former members of the intelligence services in relation to their disclosure of information, their employment in the security industry, which is restricted to a period of three years, and their communication with former colleagues, representatives of South Africa’s intelligence services or foreign intelligence services in a manner that is likely to compromise national security. These three clauses have come to be reffered to as the ``restraint of trade’’ clauses. An important aspect of clause 28 is that it will be applied retroactively.
Restraint of trade in the intelligence services is an international and national phenomenon. Indeed, the practice is also used by the Central Intelligence Agency of the USA, amongst others. For example, we are reminded that Stella Remington, former head of Britain’s MI5, first had to obtain the approval and clearance of both MI5 and MI6 before her book could be published. Indeed, Stella Remington’s book was thoroughly screened and scrutinised by both MI5 and MI6 so as to ensure that Britain’s national security and her interests were in no way compromised. Our approval of clause 28 is in keeping with international best practices, and we want to say that these clauses are long overdue. Very briefly, I want to address some of the criticisms that have been levelled at, particularly, the Electronic Communications Security (PTY) Ltd Bill, also known as the Comsec Bill, by some members in the debate and, in particular, from the DA. The hon Van Schalkwyk stated, among other things, that private companies have complained that Comsec will be encroaching on their turf. The factual position is that objections and concerns were raised by two organisations and one individual. The two organisations were firstly Telkom and then Transtel and Eskom. Transtel and Eskom, and Telkom, are state-owned enterprises and not private organisations. A significant aspect of the concerns and objections raised by Telkom and Transtel, and one that was seriously lacking, was the fact that they did not address the crucial need for national security in Government electronic communications.
Perhaps I need to pause here and place before the House an issue that has bothered me for some time now. I have heard hon members engage in debate on these matters before and I have always been of the view that South Africa, this Parliament, needs a wide-ranging national debate on the issue and the concept of national security. I have my own views about what national security stands for. It may not necessarily be the same as that of our hon Minister. Are my views on national security of necessity the same as those of the hon Farouk Cassim and the hon Mr Ellis? We need to have this debate so that, as South Africans, we have a common understanding of what national security stands for, so that in future, when the Government in the person of the Minister of Intelligence comes before this House and tables a measure that seeks to enhance national security, we depart from a common premise of what national security stands for. Until we have done that, we will have the problems that we have experienced this afternoon.
Many of the concerns put forward by both Telkom and Transtel were, in fact, addressed by the ad hoc committee. Of course, we did not agree with all their concerns and objections, but that is what democracy is about. More importantly, however, the positions put forward by these two state-owned enterprises do not enjoy the support of the Director-General of Communications. I know for a fact that he is extremely annoyed with, in particular, the position put forward by Telkom. This leaves me with a question that remains unanswered to date, namely: Exactly whose interest do Telkom and Transtel seek to promote? We remain convinced that the creation of Comsec will not only legalise the function that has always been carried out by the National Intelligence Agency, but that the Comsec Bill will merely formalise that situation and we welcome this progression.
In conclusion, we commend these Bills to this House. [Applause.]
The MINISTER FOR INTELLIGENCE: Chairperson, at this late hour of the day, all that remains for me is to thank everybody who took part in this debate.
However, before I conclude, I would especially like to thank the General from the DA, the hon Brig Gen P J Schalkwyk, for his very good input. It has become quite clear that what he was outlining is what happened, namely that the briefings took place during recess and he could not consult with his colleagues. In fact, when they did finally catch up with what was being discussed, they were completely at sea about what was happening. We are offering to have a special session to educate the DA about these matters, because it is absolutely important that we do. It was made quite clear to me when I heard the hon Sheila Camerer consistently shrieking: ``What about Sita? What about Sita?’’ It was quite clear that she did not understand a thing about this, because Comsec is indeed billed under the same concept as Sita. The very Sita which we agreed to is what we are now seeking to effect for intelligence and communications.
However, this is an open invitation and we would like to have interaction with the DA in the most honest way we can. It is important that they be educated and brought on board on the same level as we are. [Interjections.] I would like to …
Mr M J ELLIS: [Inaudible.]
The MINISTER: They need to be taught from scratch. We have dragged them screaming from where they were. They are getting as close as they can and we can drag them closer. [Interjections.]
With the kind of support that we received from the House today, the burden now lies on the intelligence services to be the world-class service which we seek to build. With this wind behind them, they dare not fail us. In fact, they will not fail us. [Applause.]
Debate concluded.
Intelligence Services Control Amendment Bill read a second time.
National Strategic Intelligence Amendment Bill read a second time (Democratic Party dissenting).
Intelligence Services Bill read a second time.
Electronic Communications Security (Pty) Ltd Bill read a second time (Democratic Party dissenting). GAS REGULATOR LEVIES BILL
(First Reading debate)
Mr G G OLIPHANT: Mr Chairperson and hon members, because it is late in the day, we do not intend keeping hon members here for too long.
The Gas Act, Act 48 of 2001, was assented to by the President of the Republic on 12 February 2002. That Act established a regulatory framework for the emerging gas industry in our country, leading to the signing of a landmark agreement between Sasol and the governments of Mozambique and South Africa to bring gas from Mozambique to our country.
The current Bill represents an important milestone in the implementation of the Government’s vision for the energy sector. This will diversify South Africa’s energy resources, create markets, cheaper inputs and the potential for new large and medium gas-based industries in Gauteng and Mpumalanga, especially in the Nelspruit and surrounding areas, as well as boost the Mozambican economy and further the goals of Nepad.
Since then, Sasol has made significant progress regarding the project. They have laid the first section of the pipeline as we speak. According to Sasol, they will create 1 500 jobs in Mozambique and 375 jobs in South Africa during the construction phase. They will use approximately 600 expatriates in the process. Obviously there will be some other permutations during the operational phase, but that will be closely monitored.
Gas is expected to flow into this country just after the ANC is re-elected in 2004. [Interjections]. Yes, that is very true. We will play a significant role in improving the environment, reducing unemployment and in ultimately helping South Africa meet its international obligations pertaining to climate change. One of the spin-offs will be that the price of the LPG will drop due to competition with natural gas. This will make it more affordable for households, thus mitigating the awful effects of paraffin and other unsafe and unhealthy fuels on our children and their parents.
The Bill empowers the Gas Regulator to impose levies on the gas industry. The Gas Regulator will be funded in the same way that the National Electricity Regulator is currently funded via a dedicated levy. This is a sound approach to the funding of regulators as it prevents cross-subsidies from one industry to another. It also places less pressure on the fiscus. The levy will be charged according to the amount of gas entering the gas networks.
I must point out here that there was a debate in terms of the system of measurement that must be used. We are quite confident that the regulator and Sasol will resolve this matter. This will be proposed by the regulator as part of the business plan and will be approved by the Minister of Minerals and Energy after consultation with stakeholders, guaranteeing transparency and efficiency. The performance of the regulator will be assessed at least every five years, and levies are expected to decline as the industry grows and more gas is imported.
The portfolio committee held short consultative hearings on the Bill. There was no major disagreement on the central principal of the Bill, namely that of paying levies. I must point out that there was, however, a disagreement, though a very small one, on the method that the regulator should employ in calculating the levy. That is the point that I have already made.
There was also a complaint from stakeholders concerning a lack of consultation on the Bill. I am sure that my colleague Comrade Bell, here on my left, will raise that matter. However, we are satisfied that extensive consultation was undertaken by the Department of Minerals and Energy in relation to the Gas Bill and that they gave stakeholders adequate time to make representations on these issues.
The final issue that arose was that of merging regulators in the energy sector. A decision has been taken to create one energy regulator out of separate regulators in order to rationalise the specialist skills needed to regulate the network industries and build a stronger capacity base for regulation. This process will take a number of years and will not affect the passing of this Bill. A landmark meeting will be held in Gauteng next week when a new African Forum for Utility Regulation will be launched as part of the Nepad programme of sharing and building capacity on the continent. [Interjections.]
Finally, I would like to congratulate the Minister of Minerals and Energy and the Minister of Finance and their departments for bringing this project to fruition and wish them good luck with the launch of the regulator. The ANC supports this Bill. I will resist the temptation of responding to the opposition, because they might just call for a division. So we will leave it at that! [Applause.]
Mr B G BELL: Mr Chairperson, hon Minister and hon members, the gas industry in South Africa is small but growing. Recently, we passed the Gas Act to regularise the industry. The Bill today completes the cycle and allows the state to apply a levy to all gas that is bled from a well and piped to the consumer.
The Bill sets forth the procedure for applying this levy to finance the regulator who will have the opportunity of controlling the gas industry. Since the Bill is a money Bill, and forms part of the Gas Act, consultation with stakeholders was deemed unnecessary by the state law adviser. This has led to some misgivings by the stakeholders who were invited to the final discussions. This must not happen when the mineral rights Bill is finally discussed.
The major difference was the point at which the gas levy would be applied. The Bill calls for the levy to be applied at the inlet flange of the gas pipeline. This implies that as the gas leaves the well and enters the pipeline, the gas must be measured and a levy paid. It was pointed out by the stakeholders that this could take place in a foreign country or even out at sea. The department then announced that the levy would be payable only as the gas was crossing the border and hence not at the inlet flange as stated in the Bill. This could create a great deal of confusion. If the gas, as it is crossing the border, had to be measured, an arrangement would need to be made to comply. This would entail a large capital expense and the monitoring of this installation. The cost of this would add to the final selling price of the gas.
The alternative arrangement could be applying the levy at the final stage of the value chain. This would mean that the consumer would only pay the levy and no incremental costs would accrue. By applying the levy at the beginning of the value chain, the consumer can certainly be expected to pay any incremental costs involved in financing the levy. If the state, as hinted at, decides to apply all taxes and levies at this stage, the cost would rise dramatically.
It was announced that Sars does intend applying taxes and levies at the start of the value chain, even to the petroleum industry. This will have a negative effect on our fuel prices. During the discussions on the Gas Regulator Levies Bill, the department announced that the decision had been taken to merge all economic regulators in the energy field.
A single body regulating all areas in the energy field is a move in the right direction, but the fear would relate to the management and control of this body. When we look at the disasters at the Diamond Board, and at the Central Energy Fund that has not been well managed and is still presenting problems, it will be essential that a competent person is appointed to this position and be given a management team that can carry out these important functions.
The DP and the DA will support this Bill, but request that the issues that were raised during the discussions be clarified and, if necessary, the Bill be amended to suit. It is recognised that this Bill needs to be passed in order to complete the establishment of our very important gas industry. [Applause.]
Dr G G WOODS: Chairperson, I think that the hon Oliphant and hon Bell have done a great job in giving us the background and I do not intend to repeat any of those issues.
There are only two issues that really jump up at us in the form of questions. The first is: Will the appropriate amount be collected in levies? Secondly, will the funds so collected be properly administered and used?
In going through the Bill, we are reassured that this will be the case through three different mechanisms and processes. Firstly, there is the fact that the business plan and the budget will go before the two Ministers, the Minister of Minerals and Energy and the Minister of Finance. We think that it is altogether appropriate. Secondly, there is the fact that the levies will be annually reviewed, and thirdly that, as a listed entity under the PFMA, all the PFMA laws and regulations apply.
We are happy that those two questions are answered and we are happy to support the Bill.
Mr A H NEL: Chairperson, the Gas Regulator Levies Bill is a money Bill that seeks to finance the gas regulator, established by the Gas Act that was passed last year. As we all know, a money Bill cannot be amended and, therefore, I think that the Government must make sure that all stakeholders are taken on board before such a Bill comes to Parliament.
In the case of this Bill, the Department of Minerals and Energy told us that because there was extensive consultation with stakeholders on the Gas Act, they and the state law advisers considered it sufficient and did not invite stakeholder views on this Bill. I think that was wrong because, as Sasol and others have shown, there are differences of opinion on where to impose levies, at source or on the basis of what is consumed by the end users. In the light of the Cabinet approval for a single regulator in future, I agree with the department that levies must be imposed as near as possible to source. This will keep the regulator lean and hopefully also keep the levy small because, in the end, it is the consumer who pays anyway.
We will support the Bill.
Dr G W KOORNHOF: Chairperson and hon members, this Bill provides for the gas regulator to impose levies for the pipe gas industry and is consequential to the Gas Act of 2001. The Bill furthermore empowers the Minister of Mineral and Energy and the Minister of Finance to decide on the imposition of all variation of levies.
Currently, Sasol is laying the first sections of a 1000 km pipeline that will pump natural gas from Mozambique to South Africa. This is a formidable undertaking which will benefit both countries economically and environmentally. It is estimated that the first Mozambican gas from Temane and Pande will reach Secunda in Mpumalanga in 2004. It is said that gas is the cleanest burning fossil fuel. Its emissions are far less than coal or oil and this gives it an inherent advantage in environmetal fuel. The environmental benefits of switching to natural gas are considerable.
The UDM has no hesitation in supporting the Gas Regulator Levies Bill and wishes the gas regulator well in the major task that lies ahead.
Ms S RAJBALLY: Chairperson and Minister, the monitoring, control and supervision of the gas industry is extremely important, besides the fact that it is extermely dangerous and that the negligent management could have hazardous results. The negligence to run the sector efficiently and effectively could also result in a number of serious problems and defects.
The MF feels that the provisions made available in this amending Bill are necessary and the control of levies in each part of management and transmission of the sector should be managed at its best. State revenue and other sources of income are not to benefit growing bank balances, but to earnestly manage and assist the proper running of the country, as a constant re-assessment of each sector is made to provide for and ensure that the needs within the sector are addressed efficiently.
In each of these circumstances, the MF deems it necessary that a body or mechanism be put in place to monitor the operation.
The MF supports the Bill. [Time expired.] [Applause.]
The MINISTER OF FINANCE: Chairperson, hon members and dear friends, I received a note that reads:
On behalf of all the backbenchers, hungry, thirsty, tired, longing for their partners, husbands, wives and children, do not use your 12 minutes, please!
I have no intention of being held in check like this by the backbenchers. I merely want to thank all the parties who voted in favour. [Applause.] Debate concluded.
Bill read a first time.
GAS REGULATOR LEVIES BILL
(Second Reading debate)
There was no debate.
Bill read a second time.
CONSIDERATION OF REQUEST FOR APPROVAL BY PARLIAMENT OF OPTIONAL PROTOCOL TO THE CONVENTION ON THE RIGHTS OF THE CHILD ON THE SALE OF CHILDREN, CHILD PROSTITUTION AND CHILD PORNOGRAPHY IN TERMS OF SECTION 231(2) OF THE CONSTITUTION
There was no debate.
The protocol was approved.
CONSIDERATION OF REQUEST FOR APPROVAL BY PARLIAMENT OF CONVENTION ON
PROTECTION OF CHILDREN AND CO-OPERATION IN RESPECT OF INTER-COUNTRY
ADOPTION IN TERMS OF SECTION 231(2) OF THE CONSTITUTION
There was no debate.
The convention was approved.
The House adjourned at 18:43. ____
ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS
ANNOUNCEMENTS:
National Assembly:
- The Speaker:
(1) Message from National Council of Provinces to National Assembly:
Bill passed by National Council of Provinces on 31 October 2002
and transmitted for concurrence:
(i) National Environmental Management Amendment Bill [B 62 -
2002] (National Council of Provinces - sec 76) (referred to
Portfolio Committee on Environmental Affairs and Tourism).
TABLINGS:
National Assembly and National Council of Provinces:
Papers:
- The Minister of Finance:
(a) Annual Financial Statements of the Reconstruction and
Development Programme Fund for 2001-2002, including the Report of
the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements for 2001-2002 [RP
142-2002].
(b) Annual Financial Statements of the Corporation for Public
Deposits for 2001-2002.
(c) Government Notice No 1226 published in Government Gazette No
23892 dated 30 September 2002: Statement of the National Revenue,
Expenditure and Borrowing as at 31 August 2002, in terms of the
Public Finance Management Act, 1999 (Act No 1 of 1999).
- The Minister of Public Enterprises:
Report and Financial Statements of Transnet for 2001-2002.
- The Minister of Social Development:
International Agreement between the Government of the Republic of South
Africa and the Government of the Kingdom of the Netherlands on Social
Security, tabled in terms of section 231(3) of the Constitution, 1996.
- The Minister for Agriculture and Land Affairs:
(a) Report and Financial Statements of Onderstepoort Biological
Products Limited for 2001-2002.
(b) Financial Statements of Onderstepoort Biological Products
Limited for 2001-2002.
National Assembly:
- The Minister of Public Works:
Letter from the Minister of Public Works to the Speaker, tabled in
terms of section 65(2)(a) of the Public Finance Management Act, 1999
(Act No 1 of 1999), explaining the delay in the tabling of the annual
report, financial statements and the Auditor-General report:
Dear Madam
TABLING OF ANNUAL REPORTS OF THE DEPARTMENT AND PUBLIC ENTITIES
UNDER MY CONTROL
In terms of Section 65 of the Public Finance Management Act (PFMA)
No 1 of 1999, I must table the Annual Report for the Department of
Public Works and its public entities on or before September 2002.
I wish to advise that the department's audit report was finalised
on 03 October 2002. The annual report incorporating the audited
Annual Financial Statements as well as the Auditor-General's
report is currently being printed. I have therefore been unable to
table on 30 September as required by PFMA.
Please be advised that I will table the annual report at the
earliest possible time as soon as it is finalised.
Yours in Service
S N SIGCAU (MP)
MINISTER COMMITTEE REPORTS:
National Assembly:
-
Report of the Portfolio Committee on Safety and Security on the Explosives Bill [B 43 - 2002] (National Assembly - sec 75), dated 31 October 2002:
The Portfolio Committee on Safety and Security, having considered the subject of the Explosives Bill [B 43 - 2002] (National Assembly - sec 75), referred to it and classified by the Joint Tagging Mechanism as a section 75 Bill, presents the Explosives Bill [B 43B - 2002] (National Assembly - sec 75).