National Council of Provinces - 31 October 2002
THURSDAY, 31 OCTOBER 2002 __
PROCEEDINGS OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
____
The Council met at 14:09.
The Chairperson took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayers or meditation.
ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS - see col 000.
NOTICES OF MOTION
Mr L G LEVER: Chairperson, on behalf of the DP I shall move at the next sitting of the House:
That the Council -
(1) condemns the recent series of terrorist blasts in Soweto and Bronkhorstspruit;
(2) specifically condemns the attacks on religious sites as cowardly and as an attack on the constitutionally guaranteed right of freedom to follow and worship in the faith of one’s choice;
(3) expresses the conviction that far from polarising South Africans on racial lines, such conduct will unite all South Africans in a quest to put an end to the evil of terrorism; and
(4) expresses its solidarity and condolences to those affected by these cowardly acts of terrorism.
[Applause.]
Mr P A MATTHEE: Voorsitter, ek gee hiermee kennis dat ek op die volgende sittingsdag sal voorstel:
Dat die Raad -
(1) kennis neem -
(a) van die persentasie van die bevolking in elke provinsie wat
beperkte of geen toegang het tot genoegsame, veilige en voedsame
voedsel nie, naamlik Oos-Kaap 48%, Vrystaat 48%, Gauteng 12%,
KwaZulu-Natal 26%, Limpopo 38%, Mpumalanga 25%, Noordkaap 35%,
Noordwes 37% en Wes-Kaap 12%;
(b) dat daar 'n toename was in armoede en die aantal persone wat
onder ernstige voedseltekort gebuk gaan as gevolg van die redes
soos Woensdag, 30 Oktober 2002, genoem deur die agbare Minister
vir Landbou- en Grondsake in antwoord op 'n vraag deur my
gestel; en
(c) dat daar 'n aantal inisiatiewe in al die provinsies geneem is om
oplossings vir hierdie onaanvaarbare situasie te probeer vind;
en
(2) al die premiers van die onderskeie provinsies versoek om op die vroegste moontlike gepaste datum, welke datum deur die Voorsitter van hierdie Raad bepaal moet word, self of deur middel van die verantwoordelike provinsiale minister verslag te doen aan hierdie Raad oor die redes vir die toedrag van sake ten opsigte van hierdie aangeleentheid en die vordering gemaak ten opsigte van die inisiatiewe in hierdie verband geneem in hulle onderskeie provinsies. (Translation of Afrikaans notice of motion follows.)
[Mr P A MATTHEE: Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move:
That the Council -
(1) notes -
(a) the percentage of the population in every province that has
either restricted or no access to sufficient, safe and
nutritious food, namely the Eastern Cape 48%, Free State 48%,
Gauteng 12%, KwaZulu-Natal 26%, Limpopo 38%, Mpumalanga 25%,
Northern Cape 35%, North West 37% and the Western Cape 12%;
(b) that there was an increase in poverty and the number of people
suffering a serious food shortage for the reasons mentioned on
Wednesday, 30 October 2002, by the hon the Minister for
Agriculture and Land Affairs in reply to a question I posed; and
(c) that a number of initiatives have been taken in all the
provinces in order to find solutions to this unacceptable
situation; and
(2) requests all the premiers of the different provinces, at the earliest possible suitable date, which date must be determined by the Chairperson of this Council, to report back to this Council either in person or through the responsible provincial minister about the reasons for the state of affairs with regard to the initiatives in this connection in their respective provinces.]
Mr K D S DURR: Madam Chair, I give notice that at the next sitting of this House I will move:
That the Council -
(1) notes that -
(a) there are 29 operational gambling casinos in South Africa which
generated some R439 million in tax for the financial year ending
31 March 2002; and
(b) these 29 casinos are being regulated by a National Gambling
Board and nine regional boards comprising a Chairman, CEO's,
board members and a total staff complement of 274 people with a
total budget of some R120 million, consuming about a quarter of
all tax paid;
(2) given the fact that there are uniform norms and standards, applying generally throughout the country on gambling, and uniformity of legislation, calls upon the Government to -
(a) place a moratorium on all new gambling licences;
(b) disband the gambling boards in the nine provinces;
(c) require the highest degree of self regulation by the industry;
and
(d) seek a more cost-effective way of regulating this industry; and
(3) requests the Government, that is currently studying the impact of legalised gambling in South Africa since 1994, also to consider the huge social cost and moral damage caused by this industry.
Ms C-S BOTHA: Chairperson, I hereby give notice that at the next sitting of this House I shall move:
That the Council -
(1) notes that -
(a) the final report of the UN panel on the Illegal Exploitation of
Natural Resources and other Forms of Wealth of the DRC found
that ruling elites of the Governments of the DRC, Rwanda, Uganda
and Zimbabwe are involved in criminal activities and
exploitation of natural and fiscal resources; and
(b) the Zimbabwean defence minister proposed that a company be set
up in Mauritius to disguise the continuing economic interests of
the Zimbabwe defence force in the DRC; and
(2) calls on President Mbeki to give assurances that -
(a) ``silent diplomacy'' is confronting Zimbabwe's new resource
colonialism in the DRC; and
(b) South Africans implicated in the report are under investigation.
DROWNING IN PRIESKA
(Draft Resolution)
Mr M A SULLIMAN: Chair, I move without notice:
That the Council -
(1) notes with sadness the drowning of four boys at the unused municipal swimming pool in Prieska;
(2) notes further that the bodies of Ivan Malgas (10 years), Brenden Beyers (10 years), Greshan Petoors (9 years) and Goddfrey Olyn (11 years) were found in water that was two metres deep;
(3) expresses concern that the water level in the swimming pool was allowed to rise to two metres, but that no effort was made to secure the swimming pool except for a wooden fence around it;
(4) calls on the relevant municipality to take appropriate and immediate steps to make the swimming pool safe to prevent tragedies like this from happening in the future; and
(5) expresses its sincere condolences to the parents and families of the four boys.
Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.
CONGRATULATIONS TO MARTHA MOSOAHLE
(Draft Resolution)
Mr B J TOLO: Chairperson, I move without notice: That the Council -
(1) congratulates Martha Mosoahle, a teacher from Gauteng, on becoming the first African woman to captain the national senior netball team, the Proteas, which left for New Zealand last Sunday to play in a two test series against the Silver Ferns;
(2) congratulates Netball South Africa on their efforts to fully transform the sport and give it a truly South African identity as opposed to the unrepresentative complexion of some prominent national male teams;
(3) notes that in a society bereft of female sport role-models, Ms Mosoahle’s achievement will engender enormous amounts of enthusiasm and interest in netball amongst young girls across South Africa; and
(4) believes that since netball is now leading the way with transformation and representivity, corporate South Africa and Sport and Recreation South Africa will use this exciting opportunity to ensure that infrastructure and player development is given further impetus.
Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.
BUS ACCIDENT IN MPUMALANGA
(Draft Resolution)
Ms M P THEMBA: Chairperson, I move without notice:
That the Council -
(1) extends its heartfelt condolences to the diplomatic missions of Britain, Canada and Germany and the peoples of these countries for the loss of life of their citizens in a bus accident in Mpumalanga;
(2) lauds the co-ordinated emergency measures taken by the Mpumalanga health and traffic authorities to ensure that those injured were swiftly airlifted to hospitals for specialised medical treatment;
(3) notes that this accident should be viewed as what it has been reported to be until a full investigation by the relevant authorities into its causes has been completed;
(4) expresses the hope that this accident will not in any way deter tourists from touring this province with its beautiful people and spectacular scenery; and
(5) assures these countries and their citizens of safe and memorable journeys through a province where the gods of nature have left their indelible footprints.
Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.
BOMB BLASTS IN SOWETO
(Draft Resolution)
Ms L JACOBUS: Chairperson, I move without notice:
That the Council -
(1) strongly condemns the cowardly actions of those who were responsible for the multiple bomb blasts that rocked Soweto and Bronkhorstspruit on Wednesday, 30 October 2002, leaving one person dead and two injured;
(2) commends the SA Police Service, especially the Bomb Disposal Unit, for managing to avert further bomb damage by defusing an explosive device left in a sports bag at a filling station, near a Soweto taxi rank, late on Tuesday night;
(3) notes with concern the latest reports which imply that the perpetrators of this crime want to destroy infrastructure such as dams and railway lines and other areas of strategic importance to disrupt the smooth running of our country;
(4) calls on the Minister of Safety and Security, Charles Nqakula, together with Police Commissioner Jackie Selebi, to redouble all efforts to bring all terror groups to book, as they did earlier this year when police uncovered a plot by right-wingers to topple the Government and have since charged 15 people in connection with the alleged plot; and
(5) appeals to all South Africans regardless of race, colour, or religious affiliation, to assist the police with any information they may have that can lead to the apprehension of those involved in an attempt to destabilise a South Africa that we have fought very hard to liberate from all forms of oppression.
Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.
MEDIUM-TERM BUDGET POLICY STATEMENT
(Draft Resolution)
Mr T B TAABE: Chairperson, I wish to move without notice:
That the Council -
(1) notes that the sixth Medium-Term Budget Policy Statement - (a) will promote greater certainty and predictability in our budget process;
(b) outlines a bold programme of action for national and provincial
departments, municipalities and government agencies; and
(c) proposes a framework that provides for real growth in
expenditure on public services, with particular emphasis given
to social services provided by provincial departments;
(2) welcomes the increased expenditure on social infrastructure and development, which is commensurate with commitments to eradicate poverty;
(3) therefore congratulates the National Treasury of South Africa on the prompt release of its Medium-Term Budget Policy Statement; and
(4) further wishes the Joint Budget Committee, which will bring together members of the National Assembly and this Council, success as they go about deliberating the Statement. Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.
ACCIDENT SOUTH OF BLOEMFONTEIN
(Draft Resolution)
Mrs J N VILAKAZI: Chairperson, I move without notice:
That the Council -
(1) notes with sadness the newspaper reports that eight people, including a baby boy aged eight months, were killed in an accident involving a minibus taxi and a truck on the N1, South of Bloemfontein;
(2) further notes that eleven people were taken to the Pelonomi Hospital;
(3) expresses its condolences to the families and friends of all those who are affected by this accident; and
(4) calls on the authorities to launch a thorough investigation into the accident. Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.
PEACE IN THE DRC
(Draft Resolution)
Ms C NKUNA: Chairperson, I move without notice:
That the Council -
(1) reaffirms the existence of an intrinsic link between peace and development;
(2) reiterates its support for the efforts of President Thabo Mbeki and Deputy President Jacob Zuma, who have worked earnestly to resolve the conflict in the DRC, by promoting a common understanding among the conflicting parties that development in the region and Africa can only proceed from the basis of peace and stability;
(3) welcomes the latest initiatives in the DRC, particularly the agreement to set up an interim government; and
(4) believes this agreement will eventually lead to the creation of the necessary environment through which full expression can be given to the ideals embodied in Nepad.
Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.
SUSTAINABLE USE OF MARINE LIVING RESOURCES
(Draft Resolution)
Ms E N LUBIDLA: Chairperson, I move without notice:
That the Council -
(1) notes with appreciation that substantial efforts have been made by the Ministry of Environmental Affairs and Tourism to elaborate and implement policies and strategies to achieve sustainable use of our precious marine living resources;
(2) expresses its concern at the disappointing lack of respect which has been shown by some people and companies towards these policies and strategies by continuing to plunder our marine living resources;
(3) welcomes the impounding of a fish trawler and its illegally harvested catch by the Scorpions and the Department of Environmental Affairs and Tourism; and
(4) believes this arrest will send out a clear message that the Government will not tolerate the plundering of our marine living resources.
Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.
FAREWELL TO DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon members, I have been informed by the other House that the presiding officers have received notification that the President of South Africa has approved the recommendation of the National Assembly that Mr M L Mushwana be appointed as Public Protector of South Africa. [Applause.]
Given this rather unwelcome development, I would like, on behalf of the National Council of Provinces and myself, to bid farewell to our Deputy Chairperson, Mr Mabedle Mushwana. Mr Mushwana is a long-serving member of Parliament, having joined the institution after the first democratic elections in 1994. He joined Parliament as a senator in the then Senate and was one of the members who participated in the establishment of this new institution - the National Council of Provinces. He served, when the Council was established, as its first Chairperson of Committees. He was elected as Deputy Chairperson in 1998, a position he has held until this moment.
Mr Mushwana reflects much of the essential character of the National Council of Provinces. As Deputy Chairperson, he has executed his responsibilities with dedication and integrity. He has lived up to the expectations of all the members of the Council as both an impartial and a firm Deputy Chairperson. He has also earned enormous respect as the co- chair of the Joint Committee on Ethics and Members’ Interests. We also know that Mr Mushwana has acquitted himself well as a representative of the National Council of Provinces and Parliament in international fora as well as international parliamentary bodies. Furthermore, he has played an important role in important institutions in our country such as the Judicial Services Commission.
It is, therefore, as Shakespeare wrote, ``with sweet sorrow’’, that we take our leave of him today. Sweet in that we rejoice in his appointment to an important office in our country; sorrow in that we are sad to lose a colleague who has played such a vital role in this institution. I know that I am not, Deputy Chairperson, your Juliet, and neither are you my Romeo. I am not sitting on a balcony proclaiming this message of farewell. However, I am sitting in what we could class as a balcony while we have you on the floor. It is indeed sweet sorrow. We wish you well.
We believe that the opportunity you have been given will be a further advance in both your career and our overall constitutional prescript of ensuring that we achieve representivity, equality and justice in our country. And we know that you will acquit yourself well in advancing these objectives and principles. You have chosen to give life to the intentions of our world-class Constitution and it is our view that you will indeed carry out your mandate with resolve and in the excellent manner in which you have played your role in the NCOP.
Famba kahle tatana Mushwana. Ha swi tiva leswaku ntirho lowu wu ku fanerile. [Farewell, Mr Mushwana. We know you are the right person for the job.]
Ka Setswana ra re, ke wena ntate. O tsamaye sentle. [Legofi.] [In Setswana we say, you are the father. Farewell. [Applause.]]
Order! Hon members and particularly hon Minister Manuel, before we proceed to the first Order I would like to give members from the provinces an opportunity briefly to bid farewell to the hon Mr Mushwana.
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE COUNCIL: Chairperson, you are quite correct in that we are not at all surprised at the nomination of Mr Mushwana as the Public Protector, but at the same time extremely disappointed that his departure will leave a vacuum in this institution. I am not going to repeat the very eloquent and comprehensive details of his contribution to this institution other than to say that in addition to what you have raised, he also served the Judicial Services Commission very ably in that particular capacity and his legal background has held him in good stead. We also believe that his experience in this institution will hold him in good stead in the very important public and constitutional function that he is going to perform.
I have known Mr Mushwana from the time that we started out here as senators in 1994 and our relationship was an absolutely wonderful one. I would like to speak a little bit about his personal traits - his ability to engage with all members in a very friendly, amicable, respectful and dignified way irrespective of the party affiliation of that particular member. His impartiality, his integrity, his honesty and his commitment have contributed to enhancing the image of this institution. We can only but wish Mr Mushwana well and we are confident that he will perform this very, very important role with the same excellence with which he has served this particular institution.
On behalf of the NCOP and Parliament as a whole we would like to say farewell, good friend. We believe that you are going to serve the nation well. [Applause.]
Mr R Z NOGUMLA: Chairperson, as representatives from the Eastern Cape we wish to say that we appreciate the fact that we have been with Mr Mushwana in this Parliament ever since we came here. We were together when we came here, we were together when we were lost in the streets of Cape Town and at the airport, and up to today we are still together. Now we are wishing him good luck and a good time where he is going to work.
Ms S N NTLABATI: Chairperson, I would like to say that Mr Mushwana’s going
away to be the Public Protector is a credit to this House and when I say it
is a credit to this House I mean that it is a credit to all 54 of us seated
here and to me in particular in relation to the guidance you gave me from
June 1999 and with particular regard to your words when you said: If
there is a budget people have to stick to the budget. You do not have to
buy a stamp and say `approved' even when you know that that thing is
outside the budget''. Throughout my career and even when I am retired, I
will always think of that and even use it within my own household to say:
If there is so much, my children, we cannot go beyond that’’. With those
words, on behalf of all the people of the Free State, in particular the
legislature, fare thee well. [Applause.]
Ms J L KGOALI: Madam Chairperson, on behalf of the Gauteng province we want to welcome the hon Public Protector into our province. It is a smart province that will always take care of you as this House has done in recent years. We have enjoyed being with you in this House. It is sad to lose you, but we are happy that you are now going to lead one of the important institutions that is going to enhance our democracy.
Re re ho wena, o bile mohale ka hare ho Ntlo ena ya rona ya Lebatowa la Diporofensi. Re re tselatshweu, tse ntle di o latele ka nako tsohle, re tla be re ntse re ena le wena, o na le rona ka nako tsohle. Re o lakaletsa mahlohonolo. Re a leboha. [Ditlatse.] (Translation of Sesotho paragraph follows.)
[We say to you: You have been a hero in this National Council of Provinces. We say: Go well, may life be kind to you at all times. We will still be with you, and you with us, all the time. We wish you everything of the best. Thank you. [Applause.]]
Mrs J N VILAKAZI: Chairperson, Mr Mushwana is indeed a true leader who possesses all the qualities of a good leader. He will be missed by all of us.
Egameni lesifundazwe saKwaZulu-Natali nasegameni leqembu lami i-IFP, ngithi: Ndlela nhle! Lapho eya khona angashintshi. Uma engashintshanga, uyofundisa abaningi ukuthi ukuhola kuyinto enjani. Siyabonga kakhulu ngoba usiphathe kahle sonke. Akazange athi mhlawumbe ngoba lowaya akekho esibayeni wabe esemphatha ngokwehlukile, kepha usiphathe sonke ngokufanayo. (Translation of Zulu paragraph follows.)
[On behalf of KwaZulu-Natal and my party, the IFP, I want to say: Go well! He must not behave differently where he is going. If he does not behave differently, he will teach many people about the way that leadership should be. We are very grateful that he treated us well. He never discriminated against people from different political parties. He treated all of us the same.]
He is a wonderful leader. He should keep it up. [Applause.]
Mr B J TOLO: Chairperson, as representatives of Mpumalanga we want to join the rest of the provinces in congratulating the hon Mushwana on this very important appointment. We are speaking on behalf of the people of Mpumalanga and we know that we are not misrepresenting them when we say that he has served the nation with distinction. We have no doubt in our minds that wherever he is going he has only one thing in mind, ie service to the people. We know that he will not disappoint us. He will serve us as he did in this NCOP. [Applause.]
Mrs E N LUBIDLA: Chairperson, I am short of words, but the little I have to say will carry a lot of weight. May I also join the rest of my colleagues in congratulating Mr Mushwana on his new appointment. We have worked together since 1994 and he had become part of my family. Whenever I had any problems, I would go to him and he would listen.
I thank him for those qualities. I thank him for his down-to-earth nature. I thank him for leading us. I thank him for being with somebody like Mrs Pandor - they made a wonderful team. I am sorry that he is leaving, but I am also glad that he will be helping us on the other side. I must tell him I already have a couple of cases for him. [Laughter.]
All I can say from the Northern Cape and the delegates: We wish him prosperity. We wish him the best of luck and we trust that he will treat everybody the way he has treated us in this House.
Tsamaya ka kgotso, mahlohonolo ohle a be le wena. [Mahofi.] [Go well, and we wish you everything of the best. [Applause.]]
Man C NKUNA: Inkomu Mutshami wa Xitulu. Eka tatana Mushwana, ku hlangana i mhaka leyikulu ya ku khenseka swinene. Ku hambana i mhaka yo vava. Mi swi twile Mutshami wa Xitulu a swi vula hi Xilungu a ku ``It is sweet sorrow’’. Eka Yindlu hinkwayo, tatana Mushwana hi un’wana wa swirho swa ANC leswi hi tinyungubyisaka hi swona. Ha tinyungubyisa hi yena naswona hi tinyungubyisile eka minkarhi leyi hundzeke.
Hi khensa vukona bya yena eka Mfumo lowu wa hina. Hi khensa ni vukona bya yena lomu a yaka kona. Hi khensa migingiriko ya yena hi ku hambana-hambana ka yona. A lo whi, a nga ri ni ku tikukumuxa na swintsongo. A ri karhi a tirha, a tirhela Mfumo lowu. Hi ku yimela Xifundhankulu xa Lipompo, hi twa ku vava halatlhelo hi tsakile. Hi ri makwerhu, n’wana wa wa hina, Comrade wa hina, mikateko a yi ku nele. [Phototela.] (Translation of Xitsonga paragraphs follows.)
[Mrs C NKUNA: Thank you, Chairperson. To the hon Mr Mushwana, it is regarded as of very great significance and is appreciated when people meet. It is very sad to say farewell. You have heard what the Chairperson said in English, when she said: ``It is sweet sorrow.’’ In the House as a whole Mr Mushwana is one of the ANC members of whom we are very proud. We are proud of him and even in the past we were very proud of him.
We appreciate his presence in our Government. We also appreciate his presence where he is going. We are very grateful for his various activities. He is humble and not proud. He is always working, serving this Government. On behalf of the Limpopo Province, we feel very sad, but on the other hand we feel gratified. We would like to say to you, brother, our son, our comrade, may prosperity be with you. [Applause.]] Mr L G LEVER: Chairperson, I have the honour, on behalf of my provincial delegation and my provincial legislature to thank Mr Mushwana for the positive role he has played in this House and also for his positive role in promoting this House, I must say. I on a personal level, wish Mr Mushwana nothing but the best and on a personal level every member of my delegation and the provincial legislature wishes him all the best. He has shown the ability to grow in the position he holds at present and we have every expectation he will grow further and serve his nation in his new position. [Applause.]
Mr K D S DURR: Chairperson, it is my honour and pleasure on behalf of our delegation to thank Mr Mushwana for his good services, kindness, impartiality and friendship that he has displayed during the time that he has been here. The attributes he displayed here and the success of his work here, of course, played a great role in his elevation to this high office, and so we congratulate him and wish him well.
Much has been said about his attributes, but I would like to say something briefly about his qualities. The qualities of the man are wonderful - I mean his kindness, his gentleness, his firmness, his fairness. These are qualities that we have all experienced and enjoyed. His diplomacy is also something which has been very much appreciated. We wish him very well. We wish Mrs Mushwana very well and we know that he will go on to perform a great service for our country. Very best wishes. [Applause.]
Mnr P A MATTHEE: Mev die Voorsitter, dit is vir my ‘n vreugde om van hierdie geleentheid gebruik te maak om mnr Mushwana van harte geluk te wens met sy aanstelling as Openbare Beskermer. Hy is sonder twyfel die beste persoon vir hierdie posisie. Ons het die geleentheid gehad om mnr Mushwana oor ‘n lang tydperk baie goed te leer ken. Hy het te alle tye onbevooroordeeld en met regverdigheid opgetree in al die menige posisies waarin hy gedien het.
Ons het hom leer ken as ‘n persoon met onkreukbare integriteit, en as ‘n baie bekwame regsgeleerde wat ‘n fyn aanvoeling vir die reg het. Hy het ‘n praktiese, oplossingsgerigte benadering tot alle probleme. Ons het ook die mens Lawrence Mushwana goed geleer ken, ook in ander hoedanighede as net in die amptelike hoedanighede waarin hy gedien het. Ons het hom leer ken as ‘n goeie en ‘n opregte vriend met ‘n deernis en ‘n groot warmte vir sy medemens en sy medekollegas.
Ons beste wense vergesel hom met die nuwe uitdagings en verantwoordelikhede wat vir hom wag in sy nuwe pos, wat sekerlik een van die verantwoordelikste posisies in ons land is. Ons weet hy is die regte persoon. Ons het volle vertroue in hom, en ons sien ook uit daarna om in die toekoms weer met hom saam te werk. Ons beste wense. [Applous.] (Translation of Afrikaans speech follows.)
[Mr P A MATTHEE: Madam Chair, it is a pleasure for me to take this opportunity to congratulate Mr Mushwana most sincerely on his appointment as Public Protector. He is undoubtedly the best person for this position. We have had the opportunity of getting to know Mr Mushwana very well over a long period of time. He was impartial at all times and acted fairly in all the many positions in which he served.
We got to know him as a person with impeccable integrity and as a very competent lawyer with a well-developed legal sensitivity. He has a practical, solution-based approach to all problems. We also got to know the person Lawrence Mushwana very well, including in capacities other than the official one in which he served. We got to know him as a good and sincere friend with compassion and great warmth for his fellow human beings and his colleagues.
Our best wishes accompany him in the new challenges and responsibilities that await him in his new post, which is undoubtedly one of the most responsible positions in our country. We know he is the right person. We have complete confidence in him and we also look forward to working with him in future. Our best wishes. [Applause.]]
Ms C BOTHA: Chairperson, the DP notes with regret that this is the swansong appearance of our Deputy Chair, Mr Lawrence Mushwana, in this House, as well as the end of his career as an MP. And I want to emphasise today that he must realise that one of the few parties and one of the most vociferous ones who voted to keep him here was the DP while all of the rest voted for him to go. [Laughter.]
We have always found him to be a unifying force in this House, dealing very fairly with all disputes and I hope that he will take this particular quality and employ it to its fullest in his new office as Public Protector, and that he will do so in all the many languages which he is master of. We wish him everything of the best. Go well! [Applause.]
Mr R M NYAKANE: Chairperson, it is quite difficult for me to talk about Mr Mushwana because I have been living with him and working with him for almost 15 years in the public sector. Perhaps I am the person who knows Mushwana best. We have had fun together and we have worked very hard together. It has always been the case with Mr Mushwana, especially when it comes to the relationship between me and him, that he gets promoted and leaves us. I am not surprised today that he is leaving this House.
But, coming back to the UDM position, I went to him the day I heard that he
would be leaving us, because he is my brother. I asked: Are you hearing
the call once more?'' He replied:We will see, but the President has not
approved it.’’ He said to me: ``Ron, you know, I am blessed because I heard
that Bantu Holomisa was very pleased about my achievement. I did not expect
him really to be agreeable to this promotion.’’ That in itself underpins
the position of the UDM.
Furthermore, in our caucus we discussed this. We wanted to seek the opinion of the members there and there was unanimous jubilation and acceptance that Mr Mushwana would take over this position. I think we also registered our stance in the National Assembly through one of our members there. Otherwise, all in all we are going to miss this gentleman. I know him. However, at the same time we are not going to miss him, because he is still going to help South Africans, perhaps on a higher level. We wish him good luck in his new career. [Applause.]
Mr M L MUSHWANA: Chairperson, I am even losing weight. I am trying to rearrange my trousers. I did not believe that it would come to the stage when I must bid you farewell.
One of my closest friends telephoned me one day after the National Assembly
committee recommended in the National Assembly that I be appointed Public
Protector. He woke up in the morning and switched on the radio and what
came out of the radio was: Who is Laurence Mushwana?'' This person said:
I was shocked, because that was the question’’. The presenter went on to
say they would have to look for those who knew who Laurence Mushwana was to
explain to them. So he said: ``I was shocked because this thing normally
happens when somebody has died. It took me a long time. I was rigid with
shock until this person began to speak about your achievements’’. This
person was now telephoning me to make sure he was hearing the right thing.
I am saying this because having to respond to the sentiments expressed by hon members in this House is difficult for me. Listening to them is like listening to one’s own obituary, which is very unusual. One listens to people talk about oneself and one wonders whether they are saying these good things because this time the obituary is being read in one’s presence. They do not want to say bad things because one sees them. I must immediately thank you, Chairperson, for allowing this opportunity hon members to express their views.
I know we have very limited time and I therefore stand up here to make sure that I shed all the powers of an MP because after this speech all the powers of an MP will be gone. I am also standing here to assume a new title and new powers which I have never had before and from now onwards and maybe for the next year or the next seven years I will be known as the Public Protector. At the same time I stand here to start another chapter in which we will live by sentiments. I will, at times, have to think about you and the good old days, because we will no longer be meeting here sharing these experiences.
When the hon member Nogumla was talking about us getting lost at the airport it reminded me that when I was first sworn in in this House, I had not washed. [Laughter.] We were sent to the airport and told the planes had been arranged, but when we got there there was no plane. We slept at the airport. We came here the following day and when we were taken to the hotel, just as we entered the hotel, we were told it was time to be sworn in. And when we wanted to go and wash, Mrs Tambo said to us: ``Comrades, you know how to wash. Why do you worry about washing? Leave your bags and go to the Chamber.’’ And we just left our bags and came into this Chamber. So I confirm that when I was being sworn in here I had not washed. [Laughter.]
Let me also take this opportunity to thank the hon members for their co- operation. I found them to be a co-operative team. I found them to be supporting one another and I trust that this spirit will continue. Maybe if they were not co-operative, I would not be where I am, because I do not believe I achieved this single-handedly, but instead it comes to me because of their support and assistance.
I have listened to the members’ opinions and those opinions I got from hon members helped to build me, and I am very proud to have this opportunity of telling hon members that I am leaving them with a happy smile. If, for any reason whatsoever, I have crossed swords with any hon member, I do not think it was personal, but for the good of what brought us together here and therefore I am leaving hon members with a happy smile. It is painful for me to part with hon members though, but we all knew that we would have to part one day.
When I look at this Chamber, I think back to the time when we started out. I think of Kobie Coetsee, the first President of the Senate, I think of the late Oom Gov, who was the Deputy President of the Senate, I think of the late Sefora, who was a veteran in this House, and I think of Comrade Mchunu, who was the Chairperson of Committees from whom I took over when he passed away, so I have very sad memories and also very fond memories of this Chamber. It is painful to part, but we must part.
In order to promote this democracy we need to occupy different trenches. I am with hon members, fighting for the same cause. If I were in the ANC, which I will dearly miss from now onwards, I would have said we were fighting together for the national democratic revolution! In other words, we are fighting that our people at grassroots level must also be served.
Therefore this task, as hon members have correctly stated, is a challenging one. It is daunting, but it must be done. Somebody must do it. Finally, I thank the National Assembly committee. I thank the National Assembly for their decision that I be recommended. I also thank the President of this country for the confidence he has shown in me by accepting the recommendation of the National Assembly and appointing me in the position of Public Protector. I am ready to face the challenge. Obviously I need the support of everybody. I know with hon members’ support I will succeed.
In the end I would be wrong if I did not thank my wife, who has been supportive throughout the difficult days. I know at times I was not at home during the struggle. She would not know where I was and then I would just appear. She has been supportive up to now and I think I must thank her very much for her support. Once again I thank hon members. [Applause.]
COLLECTIVE INVESTMENT SCHEMES CONTROL BILL
(Consideration of Bill and of Report thereon)
The MINISTER OF FINANCE: Madam Chairperson, hon members, the Collective Investment Schemes Control Bill, or the CIS Bill as it is known in the industry, has been a long time in the making. It is a very necessary piece of legislation, especially in an environment where, from time to time, we read these wretched stories of pyramid schemes and how unprotected investments go down the chute, leaving the poor often even so much poorer.
The legislation has been a long time in the making. It is instructive to note that when the Select Committee on Finance was dealing with the legislation, there was not a single submission from the industry. That is because, we would like to believe, the process that brought us to this point has actually involved all of the industry players - large and small, black and white - in order to ensure that we can have the legislation that effectively offers protection to the 2,5 million unit trust account holders. These mutual kinds of funds are the largest single source of investment for many working people in this country and it is important that this legislation provides the kind of protection that it seeks.
There are two broad areas of protection. The first relates to investor protection that, firstly, will provide for a separation between manager and custodian, and secondly, will fulfil the need for much stronger disclosure rules. The second kind of protection arises in respect of prudential regulations, and three kinds of regulations are included in the Bill. The first regulation specifies the steps that need to be taken when a part owner sells out of the scheme. The second regulation pertains to the capital adequacy ratios of those listed and licensed to conduct the business of unit trust management, and the third regulation places a limitation on the types of investment.
As I said earlier, this legislation has been a long time in the making, and I have much pleasure in placing the Bill before this House for adoption. [Applause].
Dr E A CONROY: Mevrou die Voorsitter, minister Manuel en kollegas, hierdie wetsontwerp maak voorsiening vir ‘n omvattende wetgewende raamwerk wat die kollektiewe beleggingsbedryf volgens internasionaal aanvaarde beginsels en beste praktyk sal beheer en reguleer.
‘n Kollektiewe beleggingskema is ‘n skema wat beleggers wat soortgelyke beleggingsdoeleindes in gedagte het, in staat stel om hul fondse te verpoel in ‘n enkele portefeulje van sekuriteite, eiendomme of deelnemingsverbande wat deur professionele bestuurders geadministreer word. Aangesien beleggers in die skema nie die onderliggende bates direk aankoop nie, word eienaarskap in kleiner eenhede van deelnemende belang verdeel.
Die wetsontwerp maak dus ook voorsiening vir moderne wetgewing ten opsigte van eiendoms- en gewone eenheidstrusts, asook deelnemingsverbande, wat ‘n belangrike deel van besparingsmiddels in Suid-Afrika uitmaak. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)
[Dr E A CONROY: Madam Chair, Minister Manuel and colleagues, this Bill provides for a comprehensive legal framework which will control and regulate the collective investment industry in accordance with internationally accepted principles and best practice.
A collective investment scheme is a scheme that enables investors contemplating similar investment objectives to pool their funds in a single portfolio of securities, properties or participation mortgage bonds administered by professional managers. Since investors in the scheme do not purchase the underlying assets directly, ownership is divided into smaller units of participatory interest.
The Bill therefore also provides for modern legislation with regard to property unit trusts and ordinary unit trusts, as well as participation mortgage bonds, which represent an important part of savings vehicles in South Africa.]
Unit trusts had their origins in the United Kingdom in the 19th century when funds had to be raised for the British colonial government. Although South African legislation concerning the unit trust industry was promulgated as early as 1947, the first unit trusts were launched and actually took off almost a hundred years later than they did in Britain, in 1965. Stokvels, however, which we all know and which have a long history in the South African culture, can be identified as the first forms of collective investment in this country. Today the bulk of collective investment scheme funds in South Africa are managed by three or four large companies which are either insurance companies or banks, the total assets under their control being in the order of R176 billion.
It is therefore understandable that it has become urgently necessary to regulate all forms of collective investment schemes by one Act which is precisely what this Bill is all about. In a nutshell, it provides for the control, regulation and supervision of all investment-based collective investment schemes, including unit trust schemes and foreign collective investment schemes which want to carry on business in South Africa.
The benefits of this legislation, as proposed by the Financial Services Board and the Association of Unit Trusts of South Africa, are obvious and include, inter alia, the preservation of our industry’s competitive position, the stemming and reversal of investment, employment and revenue losses, and the enhancement of regulation, supervision and investor protection, as it sets the ground rules for investment managers to act honestly and fairly with skill, care and diligence.
The introduction of the registrar’s ability to declare certain practices or methods of administration to be undesirable, and sections which prohibit false or misleading statements which may fraudulently induce a person to invest, are outstanding aspects of this legislation which are long overdue.
The fact that this legislation is the end product of opinion surveys in the industry, the review of existing legislation and workshops on the topic by the Association of Unit Trusts, which indicated a serious and urgent desire of the participants in the industry to present an honest and trustworthy product and service to South Africa’s investment community, is commendable.
The New NP supports this Bill. [Applause.]
Mr K D S DURR: Chairperson, the Bill has undergone a very long consultative process and we have learned that this department is extremely thorough in its preparation. We have experienced that all the time. We thank them also for this good piece of legislation.
One of the major features of the Bill, of course, is enhanced disclosure requirements for investors. I think that is vitally important. The heart of the Bill, as my colleague has just pointed out, is that a collective investment scheme must act honestly, fairly, with skill, care and diligence. That is the heart of the Bill.
But the Bill is effectively not financial legislation. In a sense, it is consumer legislation. We wonder whether the provincial consumer courts, like we now have in the Cape, could perhaps even hear cases when small investors cost-effectively wish to enquire or feel that they have a problem with their investment. I think if one looks at the whole question of investment, we want to encourage smaller investors also to accumulate their savings. As an added protection we have these consumer courts in our provinces. Possibly, since this is consumer legislation, the consumer courts might play a role for the public.
The public is also protected by a host of provisions, constraints, requirements, punishment of contraventions and criminal sanctions. Personally, I like clause 94 which does away with the ``buy-sell’’ pricing. I like that the net asset value will be given and maximum additional costs will be shown separately. I think this simplification will make it easier for investors.
There are many improvements, such as the ability to borrow funds, and the pooling provisions for participation bonds, which will spread risk and reduce risk for investments using that kind of instrument. That is very good.
I also like the fact that, although the FSB will be the regulating authority, after very long negotiation the Bill makes ample provision for self-regulation through recognition of industry associations as self- regulatory bodies. That is cost-effective and in line with international best practice. I think it looks somewhat like a hybrid between what the SCC does and what the British do. But I think this probably contains the best of those two worlds. We have always been at the forefront of this kind of thing …
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Order! I am afraid your time has expired. Mr K D S DURR: Two minutes are a very short time, Chairperson. [Laughter.]
Mr T RALANE: Chairperson, Minister and hon members, essentially the Bill before this House provides a comprehensive legislative framework to regulate and supervise the collective investment schemes industry based on internationally accepted principles and best practice.
This begs the question: What is a collective investment scheme? Collective investment schemes allow investors with similar objectives to pool their funds for investment in a single portfolio of securities, properties or participation bonds that will be administered by professional managers. Ownership of the assets is divided into units of entitlement of participatory interest. The return on the investment is usually in the form of dividends and capital appreciation derived from the pool of assets underlying the fund.
Originally collective investment schemes were popularly known as unit trusts. Unit trusts were first launched in South Africa in 1965. The industry grew in the late 1960s. Subsequently, the 1969 crash of the stock exchange produced a decade of bear markets which only recovered in the late 1970s. Since the mid-nineties the unit trust industry has grown substantially.
Collective investment schemes in South Africa, however, have a long history in our culture through the proliferation of stokvels. Stokvels, however, are not within the ambit of this Bill because they are private arrangements. Stokvels, it must be borne in mind, have promoted the concept of collective savings for many years.
The Bill currently before this House covers four types of institutional schemes: First, schemes in securities; second, foreign schemes; third, schemes in property; and fourth, schemes in participation bonds. In addition, clauses 62 to 64 of the Bill enable the Minister of Finance to declare certain other types of business to be collective investment schemes, thereby bringing them into the regulatory net. The Minister of Finance may, by notice in the Gazette, declare a specific type of business to be a collective investment scheme. This enables the Minister to define the activity and set regulations, and specify matters that must be included in the deed of the declared collective investment scheme. Clause 22 of the Bill allows the registrar to exempt a scheme from the Bill when it is in the public interest to do so. The registrar may also refuse to register a scheme.
Revised legislation in respect of collective investment has been prompted for the following reasons. Firstly, rural industry was at a disadvantage because of foreign competition. Secondly, the policy division of the Financial Services Board is of the view that all forms of collective investment schemes should be included in one piece of legislation. Thirdly, there is an urgent need to upgrade disclosure requirements to investors. Fourthly, revised legislation gives the registrar greater powers to act against noncompliance.
Work on this Bill really commenced in 1997, with a survey by the firm Deloitte and Touche. Hon members of this House must please note that this Bill is a product of extensive consultation, attendance of conferences and workshops over a period of five years with affected stakeholders. When this Bill came before the parliamentary committee, much work and thinking were done. Rethinking and redrafting have taken place among the affected stakeholders. No member of the public made submissions on this Bill, and our colleagues in the National Assembly made only a few amendments.
This Bill is a model example of consultation in our robust democracy, and it serves as an example of how Bills should be tabled before Parliament. The ANC supports this section 75 Bill, and congratulates participants and stakeholders for executing their responsibilities with distinction. [Applause.]
Mr J L THERON: Chairperson, Minister and colleagues, because the objectives of the Bill are to enhance industry competitiveness and attract investments, it is recommended that the DP and the DA support the Bill.
The proverbial winds of change are clearly blowing through the financial services sector. In this context of change and concomitant uncertainty the DP calls on the Minister of Finance to ensure that he keeps up a strong dialogue process with all financial services stakeholders in compiling and piloting any envisaged empowerment charter for this crucial sector of our economy.
The CISC Bill seeks to regulate and control the establishment and administration of collective investment schemes, or unit trusts, and provide for CISs to take the legal form of either a trust or a company along the lines of similar provisions in the UK and the US. The Association of Property Unit Trusts and the Association of Unit Trust Companies had attended all committee deliberations on the Bill and the Bill is the culmination of a long arduous process of consultation between the unit trust industry and the Financial Services Board.
The Bill differentiates between four types of collective schemes: CISs in securities, CISs in property, CISs in participation mortgage bonds and foreign CISs. In addition, the Bill allows the Minister of Finance to bring other types of collective investment schemes into the regulatory net by way of declaration. These will then become the so-called ``declared’’ CISs.
The Registrar of the Financial Services Board obtains new powers in accordance with the Bill to regulate the CISs. New regulatory provisions dealing with capital requirements, disclosure and the responsibilities of trustees or custodians of CISs should ensure greater levels of investor protection. While the Bill opens the door to hedge funds to operate in the South African market, the Financial Services Board has given the Portfolio Committee on Finance the reassurance that hedge funds will be soundly regulated.
One of the most important reasons for the existence of the new Bill is to enhance industry competitiveness and attract investment. As things stand at present, South African institutions are not able to offer the range of collective investment schemes available in other countries, simply because there is no existing legislation which governs their use. A case in point is the open-ended investment companies, OEIC, an alternative to unit trusts that have been highly successful in UK and other jurisdictions.
Our ability to attract investors - both foreign and local - is in large measure a function of the diversity or availability of investment options. Familiarity or, at least, comparability is obviously paramount, particularly to investors from outside South Africa.
Amongst various benefits, the CISS Bill will allow for the introduction of other investment products such as open-ended investment companies and hedge funds. The Bill, therefore, seeks to open up the industry to global competition with a broader definition of collective investment schemes. Hedge funds and other leveraged funds will have increased scope to operate in South Africa subject to stringent conditions satisfying the Financial Services Board that such funds can be responsibly marketed, conveying to investors both the risks involved and the strategies used in order to enable the investor to make a sound choice based on his or her appetite for risk.
In addition, the Bill contains provisions for enhanced financial disclosure and improved protection clauses for investors. Regulation and supervision of the industry will also be improved, while the option and continued scope for creating a self-regulatory environment is retained in the Bill.
It is recommended that the DP and the DA support the Bill. [Applause.]
Mr Z S KOLWENI: Chairperson, hon Minister, colleagues, the Bill before this House is unique because it introduces legislative measures to ensure that the industry of collective investment schemes remains financially sound.
Moreover, the Bill must be viewed against the background of a number of changes within the financial sector. The NCOP recently passed the Financial Advisory and Intermediary Services Bill. The symbolic links between the Financial Advisory and Intermediary Services Bill, now an Act, and the Collective Investment Schemes Control Bill enhances the soundness of the financial services sector. The Financial Advisory and Intermediary Services Act ensures greater protection for unit trusts, other collective investment schemes and investors who engage with intermediaries for financial services advice.
A major innovation of the Collective Investment Schemes Control Bill is that it advocates the promotion of the separation of the manager of a scheme from the trustee or custodian of a collective investment scheme. An investment manager cannot unilaterally take control of investors’ funds in schemes. All transactions undertaken by a manager on behalf of investors of a collective investment scheme must be authorised by a trustee. The relationship between a custodian and a manager and the responsibilities are unambigiously set out in the Bill.
The investment manager or an investment company makes investment decisions compatible with a trust deed which stipulates the kind of investment which investors should invest in. The trust deed is drawn up jointly between the board of trustees and the management company. The trustee exercises an oversight function while an investment company invests money.
The Bill also hopes to make collective investment schemes accessible to ordinary citizens as a vehicle to boost levels of savings in the country. The Bill stimulates our new-found culture of encouraging savings in South Africa.
Clause 8 of the Bill creates an advisory committee on collective investment schemes. The advisory committee consists of the chairperson and at least nine other members appointed by the Minister.
Part 11 of the Bill details the functions of the registrar of collective investment schemes. The executive officer and a deputy executive officer of the Financial Services Board are the registrar and deputy registrar of collective investment schemes, respectively.
The special provision concerning the role of the registrar of collective investment schemes is noteworthy. The registrar may conduct an investigation into the business of a person, whether registered or authorised in terms of this Bill or not, who is involved in the administration of a collective investment scheme or the soliciting of investment in a collective investment scheme.
If the registrar, after an investigation or inspection, considers that the interests of the investors of a collective investment scheme so require, he or she may apply to the court for the winding-up of a manager or a collective investment scheme, for a judicial management order, and for the appointment of a curator. He or she may also cancel or suspend the registration of an investment manager, institute penalties for failure or inability to comply with requirements, and direct a manager to have all books of accounts and financial statements audited and submit the result of such an audit to the registrar.
The ANC supports this section 75 Bill. [Applause.] The MINISTER OF FINANCE: Chairperson and hon members, may I express my appreciation to all the parties for their support for this legislation, but permit me to comment on a few of the interventions made.
The first is that there are certain kinds of activities in which it is best that consumer protection is offered at national level. Schedule 4A of the Constitution clearly makes provision for consumer protection to be a concurrent function. But I think that we should recognise that the kinds of organisations that we are talking about here, would tend to be national in character and therefore we would need strong supervision. In my view it is not possible to compartmentalise supervision to within provincial boundaries.
Secondly, one hears the enthusiasm of members for issues of self-regulation and for some of what we have seen in respect of investment in a boom market. But, if truth be told, part of what we need to do is realise that strong supervision is necessary in the interest of consumer protection. This is why the emphasis on consumer protection is as strong as it is in this legislation.
We have to counter-balance this human quality called greed. I want to inform the hon Theron that some of what we have seen in the US and UK is not in our interest. If one looks at some of the investment practices with the 41Ks, too many people in those countries are left with no pension today. This happens in an environment in which we believe that the market is all-powerful and capable of regulating itself, yet it is not! Our responsibility is to provide the buffer; to provide the consumer protection to ensure that people can make informed choices.
The interaction between this legislation and the Financial Advisory and Intermediary Services Act, is about this issue. The FAIS Act allows the small investor particularly to make an informed choice and this ups the scale of consumer protection. I believe that we regulate and legislate on these matters because we understand collectively, regardless of the parties we come from, that we need to counteract that bad human quality that is so focused on amassing wealth at the expense of other people.
Lastly, let me just say that in respect of the empowerment charter, what I know of the charter is what I have read in the newspapers. It is an initiative entirely driven by the private sector. They have indicated informally that they will discuss it from time to time with the Government but it is not a Government initiative. I want to thank members for their support for this legislation.
Debate concluded.
Bill agreed to in accordance with section 75 of the Constitution.
SOUTH AFRICAN REVENUE SERVICE AMENDMENT BILL
(Consideration of Bill and of Report thereon)
The MINISTER OF FINANCE: Chairperson and hon members, on 1 October we celebrated the fifth anniversary of the establishment of the SA Revenue Service, and what we have in the amending Bill is the result of five years of intensive learning about the transformation of an organisation. Very important in the foundation legislation is the creation of an entity defined as being outside the Public Service but within the norms of public administration. It is a kind of entity not known quite in those terms in the public sector previously. So, the seven amendments sought in the legislation serving before this House reflect that kind of learning and some of them are consequential, resulting from amendments to other pieces of legislation or, in some cases, the introduction of new legislation.
The first of the amendments deals with the extension to include the customs function which, I think, seeks to regularise a de facto position, because the Revenue Service deals with customs. The second amendment seeks to effect an alignment between the SA Revenue Service Act and the Public Finance Management Act because Sars, as members who have studied the Bill know, is listed in Schedule 3 of the Public Finance Management Act.
The third amendment alters the norms for the appointment of the commissioner. The principal Act has the Minister making the appointment, but because of the nature of the task of the commissioner and because of the fact that the commissioner has so extensive a discretionary power vested in him or her, we saw fit to amend that provision to ensure that the President makes the appointment.
The fourth amendment seeks to terminate the life of the Sars board which was a unique kind of board, created to help us along the way. The board has served a very useful purpose under the chairmanship of Justice Corbett and we have now been able to take leave of the individuals who served on the board.
The fifth amendment creates or permits the establishment of specialist committees and the legislation deals with committees that will look after functions such as human resources and information technology. The sixth amendment is highly innovative. It allows for Sars to be funded by ways other than the competitive bidding process and one of the rules allowed for is that Sars is funded on a percentage of collections in the previous year. It is not a decision that will be lightly taken and not a decision that will be taken without specific and explict discussions in Parliament, but the provision is being made in the SA Revenue Service Act to deal with this.
The last amendment seeks to deal with or regularise the position of employees of Sars who may be contracted employees but are permitted to join the Government Employees Pension Fund. Hitherto they have been specifically excluded from joining the pension fund. Because the amending Bill before us is, as I said earlier, the result of five years of intense learning in this new entity, I have much pleasure in placing it before the House for consideration [Applause.]
Ms Q D MAHLANGU: Chairperson, the Bill before the House, as the Minister has said, is very technical in nature, so I will try and just highlight the specific things that were of critical importance to the committee.
Chairperson, Minister and hon members of this august House, as the Minister has indicated, the Bill before us seeks to effect amendments to the Sars legislation which was passed in 1997, which, amongst other things, gave administrative autonomy to Sars. The Sars Act of 1997 therefore provided that Sars would no longer be part of the Public Service, as the Minister has indicated, but would be subjected to the basic values and principles governing the public administration outlined in section 195 of the Constitution and I am sure hon members will be familiar with that.
But also, I think one of the reasons why Sars was given an autonomous administration was because Sars needed to attract professionals and people with high skills when one would not ordinarily attract if one remunerated them at a rate equal to what one would pay people in the Public Service. So I think it is quite important that, as a committee, we supported these recommendations and we think that these amendments are quite important. I will not delve much into the other things.
On the appointment of the commissioner, regarding which the Bill seeks to suggest that the President must make the appointment, the committee raised the point that in other nominations, such as those of the Public Protector, the Auditor-General and many others, Parliament does play a role in making a recommendation to the President and then he makes that appointment. In the committee a concern was raised that in some instances, just to give Parliament some role in appointing these individuals to these important positions, it is important that Parliament should be considered and given the opportunity to play a role in one way or another.
The last point which I want to deal with - because the Bill, as Isaid, is very technical, so there is not much to add to what the Minister said - deals with the funding of Sars. Currently, Sars is funded as part of the National Treasury Vote and what is proposed in the Bill is that there is going be a discussion between the Ministry of Finance and the Revenue Services about other ways in which Sars can be given funds. But that process would then be given approval by Cabinet when the agreement has been reached by the Minister and the Revenue Services. I would, therefore, like to recommend to this House that it should support the Bill. Thank you very much. [Applause.]
Mr J L THERON: Chairperson, hon Minister and colleagues, when the SA Revenue Service Act, Act No 34, was adopted in 1997, the aim was to create an efficient and effective administration of revenue collection systems. This required substantive organisational structuring of the Revenue Service, including the establishment of an advisory board to advise both the commissioner and the Minister of Finance.
The positive results of this process are clear to see. Sars has consistently exceeded and collected more than its targeted revenue over the past few years. In this context any steps aimed at improving and/or removing ambiguities and inconsistencies in the legal institutional framework within which we expect an efficient and accountable Sars to function must be supported. With the adoption of the Public Finance Management Act in 1999 the need arose to align the accountability arrangement in the Sars Act with those contained in the PFMA.
The Sars Amendment Bill broadens the objectives and functions of Sars to include customs and excise, which was insufficiently dealt with in the principal Act pertaining to Sars, viz Act 34 of 1997; aligns the duties of the accounting officer of Sars - the commissioner - with the PFMA; provides for the commissioner to be appointed by the President and not by the Minister of Finance; disestablishes the Sars advisory boards and creates specialist committees by statute; creates an additional method of funding - a specific provision about which the DA raised reservations; provides for Sars employees’ membership of the Government Employees Pension Fund; and deletes obsolete provisions - some fall away owing to the alignment with the PFMA while some ministerial discretion to issue policy directives to Sars is also being done away with.
The Bill before us broadens the objectives and functions of Sars, apart from revenue collection, to adequately cover the exercise of customs and excise functions. This would provide greater legal certainty and accountability to Sars for the exercise of these functions.
The amendment of section 25 of the principal Act contained in the Bill creates an enabling provision to allow the Minister of Finance and the Commissioner of Sars to agree to another way, above and beyond the current estimates of expenditure provisions in the PFMA, of funding to be provided, subject to the approval of Cabinet. This broad enabling provision opens the door to a number of policy options for alternative sources of funding. Such measures could include allowing the Revenue Service to retain a fixed percentage of revenue collected to fund its operations as agreed with the Minister of Finance and approved by Cabinet.
While this is only one alternative it is certainly one that is attractive to both the National Treasury and Sars. Although there can be no doubt that Sars’ considerable organisational re-engineering under the Siyakha 1 and II projects is a costly exercise it must as far as possible be funded by the estimates process and not by alternative processes. The DA believes that even if such a controversial route is chosen it could still be pursued through the normal estimates process. The DP and DA once again want to congratulate Sars on their effective and efficient operation. We trust that this new Bill will strengthen their operation. It is recommended that the DP and the DA support the Bill. I thank you. [Laughter.]
Dr E A CONROY: Agb Voorsitter, geagte Minister van Finansies en kollegas, ‘n aantal faktore het sedert die afkondiging van die Wet op die Suid- Afrikaanse Inkomstediens in 1997 daartoe gelei dat die wysiging van sekere bepalings daarvan oorweeg moes word. Een van dié faktore is die Wet op Openbare Finansiële Bestuur wat in 1999 afgekondig is en wat die rekenpligtigheid en verantwoordelikhede van liggame soos die SAID reël.
‘n Aantal geïdentifiseerde praktiese probleme in die huidige bepalings van die bestaande SAID-wet het ook aanleiding gegee tot die wysiging van die wet. Wysigings wat verband hou met die SAID se funksies en oogmerke met betrekking tot doeaneadministrasie en wat die SAID se advisering van die Minister van Handel en Nywerheid oor aangeleenthede ten opsigte van die in- en uitvoer asook die beweging en opslag van goedere reflekteer, word onder andere aangebring.
Ek verwys kortliks na enkele wysigings wat in hierdie wetsontwerp vervat word. Tans word die kommissaris van die SAID deur die Minister van Finansies, ná beraadslaging met die Kabinet en die betrokke adviesraad, aangestel. Die bepalings in hierdie opsig word gewysig sodat die kommissaris in die toekoms deur die President aangestel word. Die nodigheid dat die SAID aan die Minister van Finansies verslag moet doen, het ingevolge die Wet op Openbare Finansiële Bestuur verval en daarom word die spesifieke bevoegdhede van die Minister van Finansies, waar dit deur laasgenoemde wet gereël word, geskrap.
Die SAID se adviesraad, wat hoofsaaklik ‘n adviserende funksie het en nie werklik by beleid of besluitneming betrokke is nie, word ontbind en vervang met ‘n aantal spesialiskomitees wat die Minister en die kommissaris oor tegniese aangeleenthede adviseer. Tans moet die SAID die goedkeuring van die Minister van Finansies verkry alvorens die diensvoorwaardes van sy werknemers bepaal word. Hierdie bepaling word verander sodat die kommissaris in sy hoedanigheid as hoof- uitvoerende beampte dié terme en voorwaardes kan goedkeur, hoewel voldoende verslagdoening oor hierdie aspek deur die kommissaris aan die Minister vereis word.
Die bepaling van die SAID wat tot gevolg kan hê dat ‘n werknemer van die sogenaamde ``Government Employees Pension Fund’’ uitgesluit kan word, word gewysig. Laastens word ‘n wysiging aangebring waarvolgens die Minister en die kommissaris kan ooreenkom oor ‘n wyse van bepaling van die SAID se fondse, onderhewig aan die goedkeuring van die Kabinet. Soos ek reeds genoem het, het hierdie wysigings uit praktiese oorwegings nodig geword en het dit geen finansiële implikasies vir die staat nie.
Die Nuwe NP steun hierdie wetsontwerp. (Translation of Afrikaans speech follows.)
[Dr E A CONROY: Hon Chairperson, hon Minister of Finance and colleagues, since the enactment of the South African Revenue Service Act in 1997 a number of factors have necessitated the consideration of the amendment of certain provisions. One of those factors is the Public Finance Management Act, which was enacted in 1999 and which regulates the accountability and responsibilities of bodies such as Sars.
A number of identified practical problems in the current provisions of the existing Sars Act also gave rise to the amendment of the Act. Amendments in connection with the functions and objectives of Sars regarding customs administration and that reflect the advice given by Sars to the Minister of Trade and Industry about matters in respect of the import and export as well as the movement and storage of goods, among others, are being introduced.
I shall refer briefly to a few amendments that are contained in this Bill. At present the commissioner of Sars is appointed by the Minister of Finance after consultation with Cabinet and the relevant advisory council. The provisions in this regard are being amended so that in future the commissioner will be appointed by the President. The need for Sars to report to the Minister of Finance has fallen away in terms of the Public Finance Management Act and therefore the specific powers of the Minister of Finance, as governed by the said Act, are being scrapped.
The advisory board of Sars, which primarily has an advisory function and which is not really involved in policy or decision-making, is being dissolved and replaced with a number of specialist committees which will advise the Minister and the commissioner on technical issues. At present Sars has to obtain permission from the Minister of Finance before the conditions of service of its employees can be determined. This provision is being changed so that the commissioner can, in his capacity as chief executive officer, approve these terms and conditions although adequate reporting on this aspect by the commissioner to the Minister is required.
The provision in the Sars Act which could result in an employee being excluded from the so-called Government Employees Pension Fund is being amended. Finally, an amendment is being affected in terms of which the Minister and the commissioner can agree on a means of determining Sars funds, subject to Cabinet’s approval. As I have already said, these amendments have become necessary for practical considerations and have no financial implications for the state.
The New NP supports this Bill.] The MINISTER OF FINANCE: Chairperson, hon members, again let me express my appreciation to all the parties for supporting the Sars Amendment Bill. If I may, I should like to counsel caution regarding one of the points raised in the report of the committee, namely the appointment of the commissioner. It is in my view exceedingly important that we are able to distinguish between the appointment of individuals who fulfil functions as defined in Chapter 9 of the Constitution, namely those who head up those state institutions designed to support democracy on the one hand, and the appointment of heads of organisational parts of the state system on the other.
I do not think we are at the point where every director-general should be appointed by Parliament. I think that we may be crossing the divide that separates an executive from a legislative function. So really, we would like to caution against an idea contained in the comments by the hon Mahlangu, that we should give consideration to this. I think that the grounds are very clear. We are saying it is an important appointment and that we should take it from the Minister to the President. Clearly the President would be in consultation with the Minister of Finance on these issues, but I would rather leave it there than seek to change it to bring this into line with the norms for Chapter 9 institutions. Once again my sincere appreciation. [Applause.]
Debate concluded.
Bill agreed to in accordance with section 75 of the Constitution.
NATIONAL ENVIRONMENTAL MANAGEMENT AMENDMENT BILL
(Consideration of Bill and of Report thereon)
The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! I have been given to understand that the Deputy Minister has apologised and the chairperson of the committee will introduce the Bill on her behalf.
Rev P MOATSHE: Chairperson and hon members - do not be naughty - allow me to read the notes for briefing to be given by the Deputy Minister of Environmental Affairs and Tourism to the National Council of Provinces on 31 October 2002. As a humble, honest servant allow me to read the speech. In 1992 the Department of Environmental Affairs published a series of documents entitled the Integrated Environmental Management Procedure. The publication of these documents was widely publicised and they marked a new watershed in environmental management in South Africa. The Integrated Environmental Management Procedure, or IEM, is designed to ensure that the environmental consequences of development proposals are understood and adequately considered.
Development proposals likely to have a significant environmental impact necessitate the carrying out of an environmental impact assessment in terms of IEM. In order to give legal effect to the IEM procedure the Minister of Environmental Affairs and Tourism identified activities which might have a substantially detrimental effect on the environment, in terms of section 22 of the Environmental Conservation Act, Act 73 of 1989. These activities are listed in Government Notice No.R1182, Schedule 1 which appears in Gazette No 18261 of 5 September 1997. Government Notice No R1183 sets out the responsibilities of an applicant wishing to undertake any of the identified activities. These responsibilities include an application for authorisation to undertake the activity concerned, the submission of a scoping report and, subject to the findings of the scoping report, the carrying out of an environmental impact assessment.
In 1998 the National Environmental Management Act, Act 107 of 1998, was published. This Act, often referred to as Nema, repealed many provisions of the Environmental Conservation Act. These repealed provisions are listed in section 50 of Nema. Section 50 also states that the sections of the Environment Conservation Act which deal with the environmental impact assessment regulations will also be repealed on a date to be published by the Minister in the Gazette. It further states that these regulations will then be issued in terms of section 24 of Nema.
The use of road vehicles for recreational purposes on South Africa’s coast increased dramatically during the course of the last two or three decades. The absence of regulations which control off-road vehicle use and apply uniformly to the entire coast resulted in damage to ecologically sensitive coastal areas. Off-road vehicle use also posed a threat to the safety of people engaged in various recreational activities and was diminishing the enjoyment derived from such activities.
The Minister of Environmental Affairs and Tourism therefore promulgated regulations in the Gazette on 21 December 2001 to control vehicles in the coastal zone. The so-called 4x4 regulations were promulgated in terms of section 44 of Nema. The Minister could have promulgated these regulations in terms of the Environmental Conservation Act, as was the case with the environmental impact assessment regulations I referred to earlier. The 4x4 regulations are similar to the environmental impact assessment regulations in the sense that they also require applications for the use of vehicles in the coastal zone to be subject to the environmental impact assessment procedures. However, in the light of the fact that the Environmental Conservation Act is being phased out it was deemed appropriate to promulgate the 4x4 regulations in terms of Nema.
In April this year the Port Elizabeth High Court ruled in favour of the Minister and dismissed with costs an application brought by the SA Shore Angling Association. This association requested the High Court to set aside the regulations on several grounds, including their purported unconstitutionality. Although the High Court ruled in the Minister’s favour, the Department of Environmental Affairs and Tourism received legal opinions to the effect that the 4x4 regulations could possibly be struck down by the court as being ultra vires.
The purpose of the proposed amendment is to make it clear that the scope of Nema includes the promulgation of regulations aimed at prohibiting or restricting activities which can harm the environment, such as the use of vehicles in the coastal zone. The promulgation of such regulations is presently sanctioned by the Environmental Conservation Act. When Nema repeals the remaining provisions of this Act it will be essential for Nema’s scope to include the promulgation of regulations aimed at prohibiting or restricting activities which may harm the environment.
I therefore urge hon members on behalf of the Deputy Minister to approve the proposed amendments. [Applause.]
The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Rev Moatshe, you may now rise in your capacity as chairperson of the select committee.
Rev P MOATSHE: Chairperson, thank you very much. You are allowing me to wear more than one hat. Allow me to quote to this House from my mobile Bible. Genesis 1:26, in line with this very topic, says:
Then God said: ``Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, and over all the creatures that move along the ground.’’
Which means that the Almighty undergirds this topic which we are articulating to this House this afternoon that the environment has to be preserved.
Modulasetilo le Ntlo e e tlotlegileng, ntetleleleng ke bue. Ke ka boitumelo le boipelo jo bogolo go latlhela tlhware legonyana malebana le molao o o fa pele ga rona. O tla nna le seabe se segolo mo baaging ba Afrika Borwa.
Ke kaya se ke lebisitse mo tikologong e e tshwanetseng go sireletswa. Tikologo e e babalesegileng e tlisa pholo le boitekanelo. E tlisa botshelo le isagwe e e babalesegileng. Tikologo nngwe le nngwe e ama matshelo a baagi gongwe le gongwe. Rona jaaka badiramelao re dira melao e e tla sireletsang tikologo le baagi mo tikologong. Re dira gore matshelo a batho ba rona a nne tlhwatlhwa, tota le ikonomi ya lefatshe la rona. Re tshwanetse go nna kgatlhonong le batho ba ba tlhaselang tikologo ya lefatshe la rona.
Diphetogo tse di tlisiwang mo Molaotheong di tlhwatlhwa mme di botlhokwa mo lefatsheng la rona le temokerasi. Di tlosa maiteko kgotsa boipelaetso bo bo ka nnang teng ka bao ba ganetsanang le dithata tse di neelwang Tona ya Tikologo le Bojanala gore tikologo ya rona e babalesege.
Ke tsaya gore re mowa o le mongwe e bile re a dumalana gore tshireletso ya tikologo e botlhokwa go batho botlhe tota le ditshidi. Re ka nna le isagwe e e babalesegileng fa fela re sireletsa tikologo e re e filweng ke Ramasedi.
Tikologo e e dikologilweng ke mathata e na le matshosetsi go morafe wa rona. Se ke kgwetlho go lefatshe la rona tota le mafatshe a boditshaba. Fa go le jalo matshosetsi a, a raya rona le lefatshe ka bophara.
Motswana a re, tlogatloga e tloga gale, modisa wa dikgomo o tswa natso sakeng. Tota re tshwanetse jaaka badiramelao go tlhokomela gore re dire melao e e tlhwatlhwa e e tla tlisang pabalesego, katlego le ditlhabologo. (Translation of Setswana paragraphs follows.)
[Chairperson and honourable House, allow me to speak. It is with great joy and pride that I say a few words concerning the Bill that is in front of us. It will have a huge influence on the citizens of South Africa.
I am referring to our considering the environment that should be protected. A safe environment brings health and wellbeing. It brings life and a secure future. Every environment affects the lives of people anywhere. We as lawmakers make laws that will protect the environment and the people. We make the lives of the people valuable, even the economy of our country. We should be against the people who destroy our country’s environment.
Changes that are brought into the Constitution are valuable and important to our country and democracy. They remove attempts by or doubts raised by those who disagree with the powers given to the Minister of Environmental Affairs and Tourism to render the environment safe.
I take it that we are one in spirit and that we agree that the protection of the environment is important to all the people and the living. We can have a safe future only if we protect the environment that God gave us.
An environment that is riddled with problems is a threat to our nation. This is a challenge to our country, even to the international world. These threats face us and our country at large.
A Motswana says that preparations are made well before the time. Really, as lawmakers we should ensure that we make laws that are valuable and bring security, success and improvement.]
Charity begins at home.
Ka gonne go sa tlhapa kgotsa go sa sedimoga sentle ka … [Because it is not clear …]
… the National Environmental Management Act of 1998 …
… molao o, o dumelelang dikgato tse di ka tsewang go sireletsa tikologo kgatlhanong le go gatakiwa. Molaotlhomo o o fa pele ga rona o sedimosa seo.
Dirori megokolodi e leng 4X4, di ka se dumelelwe go taboga mo mabopong a mawatle a rona, ka gonne dirori tse di gatakela sengwe le sengwe. Go na le dinonyane tse di beelang mo motlhabeng wa lewatle mme di nna mo kotsing ka dirori megokolodi tse di tabogang gongwe le gongwe.
Ee, dinamane di tlaa felelwa ke go ja mokaragana mabopong a lefatshe la rona. Ammaruri tlhapi solofela leraga metsi a tshele o a lebile. [Legofi.] (Translation of Setswana paragraphs follows.)
[… agrees with the steps that can be taken to protect the environment. This Bill in front of us clarifies that.
Motor vehicles like 4X4s cannot be allowed to drive on our beaches because they trample everything. There are birds that lay their eggs in the sand and they are endangered by the motor vehicles that drive everywhere.
Yes, calves will cease to jump around on our beaches. Indeed, when something that one has relied upon disappears, one should know that problems have arrived. [Applause.]]
Mnr A E VAN NIEKERK: Voorsitter, as die agb ``waarnemende Minister’’ en voorsitter van ons komitee eendag besluit om die Noord-Kaap te besoek en hy wil in my nederige huis gaan bly om die natuur daar te ervaar, gaan hy die dag as hy daar weggaan uit my huis uit, sy bes doen om die huis ten minste in dieselfde toestand te laat as wat hy hom gekry het. Maar sensitiewe mense soos hy sal dit gewoonlik selfs in ‘n beter toestand wil laat as wat hy dit gekry het.
Ons omgewing is iets wat ons ook net leen. Ons leen dit van ons nageslag en ons het presies dieselfde verantwoordelikheid om dit nie net na te laat soos ons dit gekry het nie, maar om dit na te laat aan ons nageslag in ‘n beter toestand as wat ons dit gekry het. [Tussenwerpsels.]
Ek gaan nou praat oor my agb kollega se Colt 4x4. Die eerste 4x4 wat ons by hierdie Parlement in die parkeerarea hier anderkant gesien het, is dié van die vorige Minister van Landbou, mnr Derek Hanekom. Hy het ‘n goeie verskoning gehad, want hy wou orals in die platteland uitkom. Ek weet nie hoeveel hy destyds saam met die agb Sulliman op die strande gery het nie.
So ‘n rukkie gelede het ek saam met my gesin tussen Danabaai en Boggomsbaai op die strand gaan staan en terwyl ons daar op die strand staan, toe gebeur daar ‘n wonderlike ding. Tussen ons voete het witmossels uitgekom; lewendige witmossels. Ons het dit gevat en ek het my kinders gaan leer hoe ‘n mens witmossels vars kan eet en die see en die natuur kan ervaar. Dit hoef nie ‘n 4x4 te wees wat oor daardie stukkie strand ry om die ekologie te versteur nie. Dit kan ‘n perd, ‘n donkiekar, ‘n fiets en selfs ‘n klomp mense wees. Ons verwelkom egter hierdie wetsontwerp en die feit dat daar oordeel is, en dat die omgewing goed bestuur word, dat daar op gereelde basis impakstudies gedoen word, want ons moet beheer, bestuur en kontroleer.
Ons moet ook nie die plaaslike owerheid se jurisdiksie onderskat nie. Dit is onmoontlik om uit Pretoria of uit die Kaap uit toestemming te gee vir ‘n stukkie strand in die Suid-Kaap tussen Boggomsbaai en Danabaai. Die mense wat die beste weet van daardie witmossels wat ons daar geëet het - en ek is nie seker of ons dit mág of nié mag gedoen het nie, want ek het nie ‘n kwota vir wit mossels gehad nie - is die mense van daardie omgewing. Daardie jurisdiksie mag nie van hulle weggeneem word nie.
Ons moet, wat die natuur aanbetref, begin om go-givers'' te word en nie
go-getters’’ nie. Daar is te veel mense in Suid-Afrika en in die wêreld
wat kyk hoeveel hulle uit die natuur uit kan kry en hoe min hulle kan
terugsit. Ons gesindheid moet wees dat ons géé en nie net vat nie. Ons in
die New NP steun hierdie wetsontwerp en ek wil my betoog afsluit met die
aanhaling van ‘n klomp kinders wat gesing het: ``Don’t kill the world’’.
[Applous.] (Translation of Afrikaans speech follows.)
[Mr A E VAN NIEKERK: Chairperson, if the hon ``acting Minister’’ and chairperson of our committee were to decide to visit the Northern Cape and wished to stay over in my modest home so as to experience nature there, he would, when he left my home again, do his best at least to leave it in the same condition as he found it. But sensitive people like him would usually want to leave it in an even better condition than they found it.
Our environment is also something that we only have on loan. We are borrowing it from our descendants and we have exactly the same responsibility not merely to leave it the way we found it, but to leave it to posterity in a better condition than we found it. [Interjections.]
I am now going to talk about my hon colleague’s Colt 4x4. The first 4x4 we ever saw here at Parliament, in the parking area just below us, was that of the former Minister of Agriculture, Mr Derek Hanekom. He had a good excuse, because he wanted to get to all the rural areas. I do not know how often he used to drive on the beaches with the hon Sulliman back then.
A while back my family and I were standing on the beach between Danabaai and Boggomsbaai, and while we stood there on the beach something wonderful happened. Between our feet white mussels started to appear; live white mussels. We took some and I taught my children how to eat mussels fresh from the sea and how to experience the sea and nature. One does not need a 4x4 to drive across that section of the beach to disturb the ecology. It could be a horse, a donkey cart, a bicycle or even a group of people. However, we welcome this Bill and the fact that there is discernment, that the environment is being managed properly, and that impact studies take place on a regular basis, because we must control, manage and inspect.
We also should not underestimate local authorities’ jurisdiction. It is impossible to give permission from Pretoria or Cape Town concerning a section of the beach between Boggomsbaai and Danabaai. The people who will know best regarding those white mussels that we ate there - and I am not sure whether we were or were not allowed to eat them, because I did not have a quota for white mussels - are the people from that area. They should not be deprived of that jurisdiction.
As far as nature is concerned, we must start to become go-givers and not go- getters. Too many people in South Africa and across the world are trying to see how much they can get out of nature and how little they can put back into it. Our attitude should be that we give and do not just take. We in the New NP support this Bill and I would like to end my speech by quoting what a group of children once sang: ``Don’t kill the world’’. [Applause.]]
Nkk J N VILAKAZI: Sihlalo, kuyangithokozisa kakhulu ukuba ngomunye wezikhulumi kule nkulumompikiswano esezithebeni namhlanje.
Inkulumo yami izoba mfishane kodwa idle ngokuletha umyalezo ovela ekhaya esiFundazweni saKwaZulu-Natali. Ingqikithi yawo iqukethe ukuphatha, ukondliwa nokunakekelwa kwemvelo, ikakhulu umhlaba esihlala kuwo. Indawo esihlala kuyo ibukeka kahle, iyakhangisa kangangokuthi iheha izivakashi noma izihambeli.
Indawo enewozawoza ezivakashini ingenisa umnotho. Umhlonishwa uNgqongqoshe womNyango wezeMvelo kanye nezokuVakasha ubhekele uHulumeni izwe lonke laseNingizimu Afrika. Izindawo esihlezi kuzo kufanele siziphathe kahle. Ezisematheni kulezi zinsuku amabhishi ahlanzekile naphathwa kahle, abe nazo izidingo ezidingwa izivakashi uma zizophola kuwo.
Abanye bebethola imali enhle ngokuthwala izivakashi ngezimoto ezidume ngokuthi ama-4x4 okuthe uma kubonakala ukuhlukumezeka kwemvelo eduze nolwandle, umNyango wezeMvelo kanye nezokuVakasha wawushaya lo mThetho osuchitshiyelwa namhlanje. (Translation of Zulu paragraphs follows.) [Mrs J N VILAKAZI: Chairperson, it makes me very happy to be one of the speakers in the debate on the Bill that is on the Table today.
My speech will be short, but it will bring a strong message from my home in the province of KwaZulu-Natal. Its theme consists of the management, nurturing and caring for nature, particularly in the environment in which we live. The environment in which we live is beautiful, interesting in such a way that it attracts tourists.
A place that is attractive to tourists brings in investment. The hon the Minister of Environmental Affairs and Tourism oversees the whole of South Africa for the Government. We must look after the places in which we live. The most talked about news these days is clean beaches that are also well looked after. They must have resources that tourists need when they have come to relax on them.
Some people have been getting good money by transporting tourists in 4x4 vehicles. When it was realised that nature near the sea is being abused, the Department of Environmental Affairs and Tourism passed this Act that is being amended today.] Mr A E VAN NIEKERK: Chairperson, on a point of order: This is the second time in about a week that when isiZulu is spoken in this House, we have no interpreting service being made available. The isiZulu is indicated on the speakers’ list. This is unacceptable. We cannot carry on.
The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Someone has gone out to attend to this. It is not because it is Zulu.
Mr A E VAN NIEKERK: Chairperson, can I suggest that we adjourn until we have the interpreting service. [Interjections.]
The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Hon member, it is stated on the speakers’ list that both English and Zulu will be used. You have gone halfway in Zulu.
Mrs J N VILAKAZI: They know Zulu is my language. They should have made arrangements. I am not going to translate.
The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: There will be a translation. I am just reminding you that it is stated on the speakers’ list that you are going to speak both English and Zulu.
Mrs J N VILAKAZI: Yes, but I always choose the language I want to speak. It is written here. [Interjections.] I am sorry.
The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Hon member, there was no contempt for the fact that you were speaking Zulu. The hon members were just keen to understand what you were saying. It is on that note that we were pleading with you just for these last two minutes, to speak English. The choice is yours.
Nkk J N VILAKAZI: Sihlalo, isifundazwe sami saKwaZulu-Natali sithe ngize ngibeke lo mlayezo wokuthi kuyezwela eduze nolwandle esihlabathini noma ezihlahleni nasotshanini uma ama-4x4 ehamba khona. Kukhona nezilwanyana ezincane ezifayo kanti azikwazi ukwanda uma kugidagida ama-4x4 phezu kwazo. (Translation of Zulu paragraph follows.)
[Mrs J N VILAKAZI: Chairperson, my province, KwaZulu-Natal, has asked me to pass on the message that the driving of 4x4s there has a detrimental effect near the sea, on the sand or on the trees and the grass. There are also tiny insects that are dying out, as they cannot multiply when 4x4s drive over them.] I think anyone who has been listening to Rev Moatshe will realise that the terms which we are using are as similar as if wrote them together. I do not think I should deviate from what I have written in Zulu. [Interjections.]
Sihlalo, njengoba bengishilo isifundazwe sami saKwaZulu-Natali sithe ngize ngibeke lo mlayezo wokuthi kuyezwela eduze nolwandle esihlabathini noma ezihlahleni nasotshanini uma ama-4x4 ehamba khona. Kukhona nezilwanyana ezincane ezifayo kanti azikwazi ukwanda uma kugidagida ama-4x4 phezu kwazo.
Umbiko-ke owokuthi isifundazwe saKwaZulu-Natali simsekela ngokugcwele uNgqongqoshe uma evikela imvelo nokonakala komhlaba ogudle ulwandle. Impela bayoxola laba ebebenza imali ngokutetemukisa izivakashi ogwini ngama-4x4. (Translation of Zulu paragraphs follows.)
[Chairperson, as I have said, my province, KwaZulu-Natal, has asked me to pass on the message that the driving of 4x4s there has a detrimental effect near the sea, on the sand or on the trees and the grass. There are also tiny insects that are dying out, as they cannot multiply when 4x4s drive over them. So I wish to report that the province of KwaZulu-Natal fully supports the Minister when he protects nature and the land along the sea from being spoilt. Well, those who made a profit by transporting tourists along the sea in 4x4s will have to do without.]
This amending Bill is mainly to provide for the prohibition, restriction or control of activities which are likely to have a detrimental effect on the environment, and to provide for matters connected therewith.
Ukuvikelwa kogu kuzokwenza imvelo ikhule kahle futhi ikhangise kahle ezivakashini. Amabhishi aKwaZulu-Natali angamanye adume kakhulu emhlabeni wonke, ngisho phela o-St Lucia Bay, Kosy Bay, Sodwana Bay, angisaphathi-ke oThekwini Beach noMargate, akubuhle lobu ubhema ukholwe uma uhambele khona.
Ubuhle obunje buyadinga ukunakekelwa ukuze bugcineke kahle isikhathi eside. Izivakashi ziyobhema zikholwe ubuhle. Egameni le-IFP kanye nesifundazwe saKwaZulu-Natali siyawusekela lo mThethosivivinyo. Sithi phambili kumhlonishwa uNgqongqoshe kanye nomnyango wakhe ngokulondoloza imvelo, phambili! AMALUNGU AHLONIPHEKILE: Phambili! (Translation of Zulu paragraphs follows.)
[The protection of the coast will enable nature to grow well and also be attractive to tourists. The beaches of KwaZulu-Natal are among those beaches that are very famous worldwide. I am talking about St Lucia, Kosi Bay, Sodwana Bay, not to mention Durban beach and Margate. They are so beautiful you feel really satisfied visiting them.
That beauty needs to be cared for so that it remains for a very long time. Visitors will be satisfied with this beauty. On behalf of the IFP and the province of KwaZulu-Natal, we accept this Bill. We say forward to the hon the Minister and his department in preserving nature, forward!
HON MEMBERS: Forward!]
The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Hon members, I think I must apologise, because the person responsible for the interpreting did not turn up. It is not going to end there. We are going to report this matter to the divisional manager.
Mr K D S DURR: Chairperson, it seems, if I listen to the hon member who has just spoken and my hon colleague the chairperson of the select committee, that I can say siyahambisana, that is, we are going together. [Laughter.] [Applause.]
This is a simple Bill in a certain sense, but the whole field is extremely complex, partly because it is the nature or reality of dealing with environmental issues, which are multidisciplinary and cut across different departments, tiers and levels of government. This often involves multiple jurisdiction and cascading decision-making. For the public, this is confusing because it means multiple permit requirements.
I listened to the excellent speech here of my hon colleague, but no ordinary person going out on a Sunday afternoon for a drive can really understand what he is talking about. It is an impossibility. Multiple jurisdiction remains a problem on the coast. May I say, just to give an example, that if one wishes to launch a boat, one had to do so from a boat- launching site, for which one needs a permit. Then one needs to have a boat- launching manager, like a harbour master, who can actually launch the boat. So, one needs two permits in terms of the Seashore Act; one needs a permit in terms of the Environmental Conservation Act; one needs two permits in terms of off-road vehicle regulations. And these permits, to make matters worse, are issued by different bodies and different government institutions. So, there are exemptions. But to get an exemption, one will often need an environmental impact statement for which one has to pay, and at the end of it one is not sure whether one is going to get permission either. There is no guarantee that one will get permission.
I am pointing this out because for the public matters are unclear and often they simply give up under the weight of administrative paralysis or they simply ignore the law. Let me say that with our coastline of about 7 000 km it is almost impossible to administer the law unless one has public co- operation. The public must respect the law, and the law must be accessible and understandable to the public.
Enforcibility of environmental provisions remains very difficult. Much enforcing needs to be done, as my hon colleague has said, by local authorities who know the position on the ground, and are there. But they do not always know what their rights are and where their rights and responsibilities begin or end - usually they end at the high-water mark and they have no jurisdiction over the area between the low-water mark and the high-water mark.
There is nothing wrong with the intention or the spirit of this legislation, as my hon colleague has put it so very, very well. The fact is, it simply endorses the current status quo and brings clarity. It remains highly desirable and imperative to protect our fragile coastal zone with its often rare plants, animals and intertidal marine life. It is the interface where the sea and the shore meet, where nature and marine life climax, and where mankind climaxes and is most prevalent and active. It is interesting to note that 90% of the world population lives on the coast or on rivers or waterways. So that is where one has this interface and this clash.
Just as ski boats and diving technology have exposed previously remote and protected reefs at sea, often causing major plundering - perlemoen being an example - so the advent of the four-wheel drive vehicle has opened up remote and fragile areas that were previously inaccessible. But this new accessibility has heightened the assault, not only upon the fragile shoreline, but it has opened up a new front to assault marine life in an unsustainable way, often illegally. We need to act, but we need to act sensibly, in order to protect whilst simultaneously attempting to cater sustainably for the legitimate leisure and commercial pursuits of reasonable people in an understandable way.
If the Minister did not bring this legislation, as my hon colleague put it at the beginning, the current off-road vehicle regulations would be set aside. So we support it. A problem that remains, however, is that the coastal zone is incredibly inaccurately described. I do not know what the coastal zone means. It sometimes means 100 m or it can mean dunes which are several kilometres inland. The definition of what the coastal zone is, is a problem, just like the definition of what the admiralty area is, and even the definition of where the high- water mark is and where the low-water mark is.
However, coastal areas are not the only problem. Today people are opening 4x4 trails in mountain catchment areas not covered by legislation. And this too may need attention, because very often these areas are also extremely fragile, and of course with a penchant for high rainfall and erosion.
We support these amendments - they are essential. But we do need to simplify the regulatory process for the public. The fact is that the advent of the 4x4 has opened up the country in a wonderful way and the leisure and hospitality industry is a very important one. We will need to find a balance. We do not want to hamper this industry. The 4x4 has often been a lifeline to inaccessible rural areas. It has opened up tourism opportunities in areas which previously did not have any. So, they are very good things, but we do need to protect our fragile areas, and there is a need to control and define vehicular access. My appeal is that this is done sensibly and simply; that good, clear signposting makes things clear for the public, that the decision-making takes place on a one-stop basis at the lowest possible level and in a co-ordinated way.
We support the legislation. My hon colleague said that God gave us the licence to use nature; He did not give us the licence to abuse nature. [Applause.]
Mr L G LEVER: Chairperson, at the outset may I just say that I am reading the hon Mrs Versfeld’s speech on her behalf as she is ill. In that sense I ask the House to acknowledge that I do not have the different hats that Moruti Moatshe has, but I have no objection if they wish to imagine me wearing a blonde wig while I read Mrs Versfeld’s speech.
I have doubts about giving the Minister all this power. I think the Minister should consult with local authorities, because in many instances, by not allowing off-road vehicles in certain areas, the tourism in many towns will suffer, especially on the West Coast.
There is also the danger that people who are involved in subsistence net fishing will not be able to get to the beach without a vehicle. So it has a lot to do with regulations and permit conditions. However, we believe this will also be clarified under the definition of activities.
The amendments in this Bill are merely of a technical nature and remove any legal uncertainty about the Minister’s power. The Bill also gives a more precise definition of activities than was found in the principal Act. We support this amendment to prevent further degradation of our environment.
Mr R N NYAKANE: Chairperson, the amendments that are effected here to the principal Act are aimed at ensuring that the intentions and objectives of the Constitution are realised. Section 24(a) and (b) enshrines the right of every person to a protected and healthy environment, and thus imposes an obligation for the prevention of its pollution and ecological degradation.
The amendments that are being effected today have been occasioned by the recreational activities that are carried out in 4x4 vehicles by wealthy people who place a high premium on their personal interests without concern for the negative impact that arises as a result of environmental pollution. Such a practice might lead to the discouragement of tourism, let alone the culture that would be taught to our children that frequent our beaches regularly. Recreational activities in 4X4 vehicles are nothing other than the wealthy man’s gesture of indulging in a demonstration of wealth and in conspicuous consumption practices.
Given that, a few kilometres outside coastline cities, we have millions of historically disadvantaged South Africans who still grapple daily with the scourge of abject poverty, unemployment, water shortages and poor sanitation, in KZN we usually experience a high incidence of cholera and other waterborne diseases.
Some time ago I used to enjoy a song which goes as follows: ``It’s a strange, strange world we live in, Master Jack’’. Yes, it is indeed a strange world that we live in, because instead of building up poverty relief funds to assist their immediate neighbours, these wealthy guys tend to be complacent as though everybody is self-sufficient.
We are indeed a strange society, especially in South Africa; a strange society in the sense that we regard the state as the sole provider. We insist that it is the Government’s responsibility to fight poverty, crime, unemployment, etc. We forget that individuals, the private sector, NGOs and the business sector have equal responsibility.
The labour that sustains affluent businesspeople who are operating within the coastline cities comes from the neighbouring poverty-stricken black communities who are living in shacks. It is inhumane to continuously extract energy and mental acumen from the poor without any thought of ploughing anything back. I therefore wish to put it on record that the money which is spent on 4x4s by wealthy people should rather be channelled into the rural integrated development programme.
In conclusion, I would like to share with this House the following words. This time it is not a song, but these are the words that I got from our Daily Bread religious booklet:
To ease the heartache in our world that causes us to cry, lets do what we can do to help that needy one close to us.
Before I resume my seat I would like once more to share with you one thing
I learned when we were in China recently. I did not learn this particular
lesson from the Chinese, but from one of our colleaques. I am proud to
mention his name here, the hon Ralane. He taught us this song almost the
whole day: Inja one, inja ho!'' [Laughter.] He coined it, spiced it up
and said:Inja one, inja war!’’ Otherwise the UDM supports this Bill
wholeheartedly. [Laughter.]
Debate concluded.
Question put: That the Bill be agreed to.
IN FAVOUR OF: Eastern Cape, Free State, Gauteng, KwaZulu-Natal, Mpumalanga, Northern Cape, Northern Province, North West, Western Cape.
Bill accordingly agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.
The Council adjourned at 16:31. ____
ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS
WEDNESDAY, 30 OCTOBER 2002
ANNOUNCEMENTS:
National Council of Provinces:
- The Chairperson:
(1) The following members have been appointed to serve on the
Committee mentioned, viz:
Joint Budget Committee:
African National Congress
Lucas, G A
Mahlangu, Q D
Ralane, T
Themba, M P (Alt)
Thomson, B
Windvoël, V V Z
Democratic Party
Botha, C
New National Party
Conroy, E A
Inkatha Freedom Party
Bhengu, M J
(2) Mr T Ralane has been elected as co-chairperson of the Joint
Budget Committee with effect from 29 October 2002.
TABLINGS:
National Assembly and National Council of Provinces:
Papers:
- The Minister of Arts, Culture, Science and Technology:
(a) Annual Report of the Voortrekker Museum for 2000-2001.
(b) Annual Financial Statements of the Voortrekker Museum for 2001-
2002, including the Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial
Statements for 2001-2002.
(c) Report and Financial Statements of the Africa Institute of South
Africa for 2001-2002.
COMMITTEE REPORTS:
National Council of Provinces:
-
Report of the Select Committee on Land and Environmental Affairs on the National Environmental Management Amendment Bill [B 62 - 2002] (National Council of Provinces - sec 76), dated 30 October 2002:
The Select Committee on Land and Environmental Affairs, having considered the subject of the National Environmental Management Amendment Bill [B 62 - 2002] (National Council of Provinces - sec 76), referred to it, reports the Bill without amendment.
-
Report of the Select Committee on Land and Environmental Affairs on the Agricultural Debt Management Amendment Bill [B 45 - 2002] (National Assembly - sec 75), dated 30 October 2002: The Select Committee on Land and Environmental Affairs, having considered the subject of the Agricultural Debt Management Amendment Bill [B 45 - 2002] (National Assembly - sec 75), referred to it, reports that it has agreed to the Bill.
-
Report of the Select Committee on Security and Constitutional Affairs on the Administration of Estates Amendment Bill [B 54B - 2002] (National Assembly - sec 75), dated 30 October 2002:
The Select Committee on Security and Constitutional Affairs, having considered the subject of the Administration of Estates Amendment Bill [B 54B - 2002] (National Assembly - sec 75), referred to it, reports that it has agreed to the Bill.
THURSDAY, 31 OCTOBER 2002
ANNOUNCEMENTS:
National Council of Provinces:
-
The Chairperson: (1) Bills passed by National Council of Provinces on 31 October 2002: To be submitted to President of the Republic for assent:
(i) Collective Investment Schemes Control Bill [B 28B - 2002] (National Assembly - sec 75).
(ii) South African Revenue Service Amendment Bill [B 36 - 2002] (National Assembly - sec 75).
(2) Message from National Assembly to National Council of Provinces:
Bills passed by National Assembly on 31 October 2002 and
transmitted for concurrence:
(i) Intelligence Services Control Amendment Bill [B 50B -
2002] (National Assembly - sec 75).
(ii) National Strategic Intelligence Amendment Bill [B 51B -
2002] (National Assembly - sec 75).
(iii) Intelligence Services Bill [B 58B - 2002] (National
Assembly - sec 75).
(iv) Electronic Communications Security (Pty) Ltd Bill [B 59B -
2002] (National Assembly - sec 75).
Bills referred to Select Committee on Security and Constitutional
Affairs.
(v) Gas Regulator Levies Bill [B 47 - 2002] (National Assembly
- sec 77) (referred to Select Committee on Finance).
TABLINGS:
National Assembly and National Council of Provinces:
Papers:
- The Minister of Finance:
(a) Annual Financial Statements of the Reconstruction and
Development Programme Fund for 2001-2002, including the Report of
the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements for 2001-2002 [RP
142-2002].
(b) Annual Financial Statements of the Corporation for Public
Deposits for 2001-2002.
(c) Government Notice No 1226 published in Government Gazette No
23892 dated 30 September 2002: Statement of the National Revenue,
Expenditure and Borrowing as at 31 August 2002, in terms of the
Public Finance Management Act, 1999 (Act No 1 of 1999).
- The Minister of Public Enterprises:
Report and Financial Statements of Transnet for 2001-2002.
- The Minister of Social Development:
International Agreement between the Government of the Republic of South
Africa and the Government of the Kingdom of the Netherlands on Social
Security, tabled in terms of section 231(3) of the Constitution, 1996.
- The Minister for Agriculture and Land Affairs:
(a) Report and Financial Statements of Onderstepoort Biological
Products Limited for 2001-2002.
(b) Financial Statements of Onderstepoort Biological Products
Limited for 2001-2002.