THURSDAY, 7 NOVEMBER 2002 __

                PROCEEDINGS OF THE NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
                                ____

The House met at 14:01.

The Speaker took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayers or meditation.

ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS - see col 000.

                          NOTICES OF MOTION

Mr M U KALAKO: Madam Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the ANC:

That the House -

(1) notes that the Deputy Minister of Environmental Affairs and Tourism, Ms Rejoice Mabudafhasi, launched national environmental month at St Lucia in KwaZulu-Natal on Friday, 1 November 2002;

(2) believes that this reflects the commitment of the ANC Government to building partnerships with communities in creating environmentally sustainable projects for the eradication of poverty;

(3) commends the Government for highlighting environmental issues during this month; and

(4) calls on all South Africans to preserve our environment for ourselves and for future generations.

[Applause.]

Dr J T DELPORT: Mevrou die Speaker, hiermee gee ek kennis dat ek by die volgende sitting van die Huis namens die DP sal voorstel: Dat die Huis -

(1) met verontwaardiging kennis neem dat die Gerwel-kommissie se aanbevelings oor Afrikaans deur die ANC/Nuwe NP-alliansie verwerp is;

(2) verder met verbasing kennis neem dat die belofte van oud-president Mandela oor Afrikaans op Stellenbosch geminag en verwerp is;

(3) ook daarvan kennis neem dat die beleid van Minister Asmal ongrondwetlik is in die lig van die grondwetlike beskerming van taal, die beginsel van taalgelykheid en die reg van die individu op onderwys in die taal van sy of haar keuse; en

(4) daarop aandring dat die Minister sy ondeurdagte beleid terugtrek en ‘n beleid formuleer wat aan die letter en gees van die Grondwet gevolg gee.

[Applous.] (Translation of Afrikaans notice of motion follows.)

[Dr J T DELPORT: Madam Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the DP:

That the House -

(1) notes with indignation that the Gerwel commission’s recommendations regarding Afrikaans have been rejected by the ANC/New NP alliance;

(2) further notes with astonishment that the promise by former president Nelson Mandela regarding Afrikaans at Stellenbosch has been disregarded and rejected;

(3) also notes that Minister Asmal’s policy is unconstitutional in the light of the constitutional protection of language, the principle of language equality and the right of the individual to education in the language of his or her choice; and

(4) insists that the Minister withdraw his ill-considered policy and formulate a policy that gives effect to the letter and spirit of the Constitution.

[Applause.]]

Mrs L R MBUYAZI: Madam Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the IFP:

That the House -

(1) notes that overseas arrivals in South Africa have increased by 11,3% compared with the six-month period from January to July 2001;

(2) further notes that this increase translates into an additional 93 831 foreign tourists visiting the country over this period, according to the latest statistics released by the Department of Environmental Affairs and Tourism;

(3) realises that South Africa is one of the best performing tourist destinations in the world and is being viewed as one of the world’s safest destinations; and

(4) expresses the hope that the number of tourists visiting the country will keep on increasing, thereby assisting in job creation and higher levels of economic activity.

Ms H F MALEBANE: Madam Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the ANC:

That the House -

(1) notes that e.tv’s documentary programme, ``Third Degree’’, broadcast a documentary on the crisis in the Middle East;

(2) further notes that reporting in this documentary was balanced and exposed the atrocities committed by Israeli security forces against unarmed and innocent Palestinian civilians in occupied territories;

(3) believes that the screening of this documentary has reinforced our long-held view that all parties must negotiate in good faith if a peaceful resolution of the crisis is to be achieved;

(4) commends e.tv for screening this documentary; and

(5) hopes that it will contribute to the ongoing debate on human rights and initiatives aimed at achieving a peaceful and secure world for all.

[Applause.]

Dr B L GELDENHUYS: Mevrou die Speaker, hiermee gee ek kennis dat ek by die volgende sitting van die Huis namens die Nuwe NP sal voorstel:

Dat die Huis -

(1) met waardering kennis neem dat die taalbeleid vir hoër onderwys steeds aan Afrikaans ruimte bied om as akademiese- en onderrigtaal te bly funksioneer, terwyl ander inheemse tale ook ontwikkel gaan word as akademiese tale;

(2) egter van mening bly dat minstens die Wes-Kaap geregtig is op een Afrikaanse universiteit omdat Afrikaans hier die dominante taal is, soos voorgestel deur die Gerwel komitee;

(3) van mening is dat sodanige universiteite nie in botsing sal wees met die transformasieproses nie, aangesien die nasionale Minister van Onderwys self ‘n universiteit of technikon met ‘n Afrikataal as basis in die vooruitsig gestel het; (4) ‘n beroep doen op die histories Afrikaanse universiteite om binne die raamwerk van die neergelegde beleid Afrikaans se posisie as onderrigtaal te verseker sonder om nie-Afrikaanssprekende studente uit te sluit; en

(5) voorts ‘n beroep doen op inrigtings vir hoër onderwys om alle inheemse tale met betrekking tot hoër onderwys te ontwikkel.

[Applous.] (Translation of Afrikaans notice of motion follows.)

[Dr B L GELDENHUYS: Madam Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the New NP:

That the House -

(1) notes with appreciation that the language policy for higher education still allows Afrikaans to continue to function as an academic language and a language of instruction, while other indigenous languages are also going to be developed as academic languages;

(2) is still of the opinion, however, that, as was proposed by the Gerwel committee, the Western Cape at least is entitled to one Afrikaans university because Afrikaans is the dominant language here;

(3) is of the opinion that such universities will not be in conflict with the transformation process, as the national Minister of Education himself has envisaged an African-language-based university or technikon;

(4) appeals to the historically Afrikaans universities to ensure the position of Afrikaans as a language of instruction within the framework of the stipulated policy, without excluding non-Afrikaans- speaking students; and

(5) further appeals to institutions for higher education to develop all indigenous languages with regard to higher education.

[Applause.]]

Mr M N RAMODIKE: Madam Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the UDM:

That the House -

(1) notes with dismay that the Premier of the Northern Province, known as Limpopo, is being taken to the Pretoria High Court for flouting tender procedures in awarding a contract for the extension of his offices;

(2) further notes with astonishment that it is alleged that the contract awarded amounts to R120 million, whilst building developers believe that it should cost no more than R38 million;

(3) condemns this staggering wastage of scarce resources in one of the poorest provinces in this country;

(4) further condemns the apparent procedural mismanagement and the failure to get Treasury approval for this expenditure; and

(5) calls upon the Minister for Provincial and Local Government to urgently investigate this matter and prevent the wastage of taxpayers’ money solely for the purpose of giving the premier more luxurious offices on his plush island of bureaucracy surrounded by a sea of poverty and nondelivery.

[Applause.]

Ms N D NGCENGWANE: Madam Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the ANC:

That the House -

(1) notes that Ministers from the Southern African Development Community and the European Union began a meeting today to discuss the crisis in Zimbabwe, peace, democracy and stability, poverty alleviation, economic development and trade;

(2) further notes that this meeting is taking place amidst the rising food shortages in the region;

(3) believes that this meeting will contribute to strengthening links and co-operation between countries of the South and North and to fighting poverty and underdevelopment; and

(4) wishes the delegates to this meeting every success in their deliberations.

Dr P W A MULDER: Mevrou die Speaker, ek gee hiermee kennis dat ek by die volgende sitting van die Huis namens die VF sal voorstel:

Dat die Huis - (1) kennis neem dat die VF vandag sy nuwe Internet-webblad in Kaapstad bekendgestel het met die webadres: www.vf.co.za;

[Tussenwerpsels.] Ons sal die taal een eers daardie kant los.

(2) die VF gelukwens met die moeite wat gedoen is om die webblad in agt tale beskikbaar te stel - dit sluit vier amptelike Suid-Afrikaanse tale in, naamlik (in alfabetiese volgorde) Afrikaans, Engels, Setswana en Zoeloe, en vier van die wêreld se grootste tale, naamlik Duits, Frans, Russies en Spaans; en

(3) verder kennis neem dat -

   (a)  die VF-webblad die Suid-Afrikaanse politieke webblad is wat in
       die meeste tale beskikbaar is; en


   (b)  dit belangrik is dat politieke partye in Suid-Afrika
       veeltaligheid nie net napraat nie, maar dit ook prakties
       uitleef. (Translation of Afrikaans notice of motion follows.)

[Dr P W A MULDER: Madam Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the FF:

That the House -

(1) notes that the Freedom Front launched its new Internet webpage today in Cape Town with the web address www.vf.co.za;

[Interjections.] We will leave the language issue for now.

(2) congratulates the FF on the trouble that was taken to make the webpage available in eight languages - this includes four official South African languages, namely (in alphabetical order) Afrikaans, English, Setswana and Zulu, and four of the world’s biggest languages, namely German, French, Russian and Spanish; and (3) further notes that -

   (a)  the FF-webpage is the South African political webpage which is
       available in the most languages; and


   (b)  it is important that political parties in South Africa not only
       talk about multilingualism, but also implement it in practice.]

Adv Z L MADASA: Madam Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the ACDP:

That the House -

(1) notes -

   (a)  the recent Franco-German agreement, which effectively ensures
       the retention of farm subsidies in the EU;


   (b)  that the increasing use of the strategy of bilateral agreements
       on contentious issues has the potential to undermine
       negotiations in the WTO; and


   (c)  that the Franco-German agreement seriously undermines the next
       round of trade negotiations;

(2) calls upon the EU member states to put pressure on France to reconsider its position on farm subsidies, as these are having a negative impact on the economies of developing nations, especially those in Africa; and

(3) also calls on the Government to reconsider its economic policies of entirely opening up the economy to a closed protective global economy instead of introducing measures to ensure self-sufficiency.

Ms M M RATSOMA: Madam Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the ANC:

That the House -

(1) notes that the Department of Environmental Affairs and Tourism has made strides in transforming the fishing industry to increase the meaningful participation of historically disadvantaged communities;

(2) further notes that abalone fishing, pelagic fishing, West Coast rock lobster fishing and hake long-line fishing are characterised by significant participation of individuals and communities with historically disadvantaged backgrounds;

(3) believes that this reflects the commitment of the ANC Government to transform the fishing industry and roll back the frontiers of poverty; and

(4) welcomes measures that the Government has embarked on in transforming the fishing industry.

[Applause.]

Brig Gen P J SCHALKWYK: Madam Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the DP:

That the House -

(1) notes that Sunday, 10 November 2002, is Remembrance Sunday when all soldiers and combatants who made the supreme sacrifice in wars and conflicts will be remembered at commemoration services around South Africa as well as in the Commonwealth and other countries;

(2) acknowledges this sacrifice; and

(3) resolves that none should forget the contribution made to the people of South Africa by these fallen soldiers and combatants.

Mr M F CASSIM: Madam Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the IFP:

That the House -

(1) notes with great dismay that a group of hijackers known as the Blue Light Gang, because of the blue light they use on their car to mislead the public into believing that they are the police, is stopping cars at certain times, on certain roads, to rob victims and rape women passengers; and

(2) calls on the Minister of Safety and Security to leave no stone unturned in hunting down this gang and bringing them to speedy justice.

[Applause.]

Ms N S MTSWENI: Madam Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the ANC:

That the House -

(1) notes that Telkom emerged as the most loved South African brand in the 2002 Markinor-Sunday Times top brands category;

(2) believes that -

   (a)  this achievement is an appreciation of the impact of the
       services of Telkom in improving the people's lives for the
       better; and


   (b)  this is a further demonstration of the correctness of our agenda
       to restructure state assets for efficient delivery of services
       and provision of basic services for all our people; and

(3) congratulates Telkom on being the most loved South African brand.

[Applause.]

Mr J DURAND: Madam Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the New NP:

That the House -

(1) notes that Mr Max du Preez, fierce critic of the New NP, made the following profound statements about Marthinus van Schalkwyk, national leader of the New NP and Premier of the Western Cape, in terms of his co-operative governance agreement with the ANC and his first 100 days as premier:

   (a)  ``More than any party politician since 1994, he has taken a
       significant step towards blurring the racial divide in our
       country's politics''; and


   (b)  ``In his first 100 days or so of being Premier of the Western
       Cape, Van Schalkwyk has had a strong emphasis on delivery of
       services to the poor, on reconciling the racial differences
       between the mainly three groups in his province, on education
       and training, on aggressive land reform and on economic
       development - and he has done more than most other premiers
       about combating HIV/Aids''; and

(2) believes that the New NP’s co-operative governance agreement with the ANC will enable all South Africans to build a brighter future for South Africa - together.

[Interjections.] [Applause.]

Mr S ABRAM: Madam Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the UDM:

That the House - (1) notes that, during the week, several major African states, including South Africa, acceded to the Nepad programme, subscribing also to the peer review mechanism;

(2) further notes that the future success and credibility of Nepad is largely dependent upon the proper functioning of the peer review mechanism, including, amongst others, within the political context;

(3) expresses concern about the numerous reversals, retractions, diversions and denials regarding the inclusion or not of political peer review in Nepad, which, according to the most recent reports, is apparently now part of the mechanism again; and

(4) calls on our President once and for all to state unambiguously this Government’s commitment to political peer review.

           UPCOMING TOURISM ENTREPRENEUR OF THE YEAR AWARD
                         (Draft Resolution)

Mnr J DURAND: Mevrou die Speaker, ek stel sonder kennisgewing voor:

Dat die Huis -

(1) kennis neem dat Monica Mahloane, mede-eienaar van die Lelapa Restaurant in Langa, aangewys is as die wenner van die toekenning vir die Opkomende Toerisme-entrepreneur van die Jaar;

(2) verder kennis neem dat die restaurant spruit uit die idee om aan toeriste en plaaslike inwoners die geleentheid te bied om gesellig saam te verkeer en dinge saam te geniet;

 3) me Mahloane gelukwens met haar toekenning en haar ook alle
    voorspoed vir die toekoms toewens. (Translation of Afrikaans draft resolution follows.)

[Mr J DURAND: Madam Speaker, I move without notice:

That the House -

(1) notes that Monica Mahloane, co-owner of the Lelapa Restaurant in Langa, has been selected as the winner of the Upcoming Tourism Entrepreneur of the Year Award;

(2) further notes that the restaurant originated from the idea of giving tourists and local inhabitants the opportunity to socialise and enjoy things together;

(3) congratulates Ms Mahloane on her award and also wishes her every success in the future.]

Agreed to.

DEBATE ON REPORT OF JOINT MONITORING COMMITTEE ON IMPROVEMENT OF QUALITY OF LIFE AND STATUS OF WOMEN - IMPACT OF HIV/AIDS ON WOMEN AND GIRLS

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF DEFENCE: Madam Speaker, let me begin by acknowledging the role that you played in establishing this committee - the Joint Monitoring Committee on Improvement of Quality of Life and Status of Women. Let me also congratulate the hon member Lulu Xingwana who, as we all know, is the chairperson of this committee.

In opening this debate, I would like to start off by saying that in November 2001, the Joint Monitoring Committee on Improvement of Quality of Life and Status of Women released a report on how best South Africa could address the impact of HIV/Aids. That report clearly highlighted some of the most critical challenges faced by women and girls in the prevention of HIV infection as well as access to treatment, care and support services.

The committee report acknowledged the positive steps taken by the Government, primarily through the Departments of Health, Social Development and Education, to respond more comprehensively and effectively to the epidemic. The achievements acknowledged by the committee include the following. Life skills and HIV education programmes are now a compulsory part of the curriculum. A programme to strengthen sexually transmitted infection management and surveillance using the syndromic management and microbiological approach has been implemented. That has resulted in the reduction of the incidence of STIs in three provinces.

Government has placed great emphasis on improving the quality of life through treating and managing opportunistic infections and sexually transmitted infections. Every person that presents himself or herself at public health care facilities, irrespective of that individual’s HIV status, now receives treatment.

There can be no doubt that women and girls in South Africa carry a disproportionate burden in the HIV/Aids epidemic. According to the June 2000 UNAIDS global report on HIV/Aids, in sub-Saharan Africa 55% of adult infections are among women. The highest number of new cases is among girls who are 15 to 19 years of age. Worldwide, women are contracting HIV at a faster rate than men. Most women are infected by a partner to whom they are faithful. Women may transmit HIV to their babies via pregnancy or breast- feeding. Women take the major responsibility of caring for the sick or orphans.

Those realities are reflected in South Africa as well, where young women in the 20 to 30-year age group have the highest prevalence rates, as measured by the annual antenatal seroprevalence study. Some of the underlying causes for this high prevalence include socioeconomic factors such as poverty and malnutrition, migrant labour, commercial sex, the low status of women, illiteracy, lack of formal education, stigma and discrimination. There is also a purely physiological reason in that the risk of HIV infection during unprotected sex is two to four times higher for women than for men due to the difference in their biological make-up.

One of the issues that needs to be highlighted is the stigma attached to HIV/Aids. In this regard, I must acknowledge the work that has been done by members of this House in helping to remove the stigma of HIV/Aids. Twenty years into this epidemic in South Africa, we still have to deal with societal discrimination and stigmatisation. What I would like to focus on next is what Government has been doing to address those very issues.

One of the first initiatives that needs to be mentioned is the very strong partnership between the HIV/Aids unit in the Department of Health and the women’s sector in civil society. The Women in Partnership against Aids Forum was established in 2000. The purpose of that partnership is to strengthen the responses of women to HIV/Aids and violence against women and children, and to allow women of South Africa to speak for themselves.

The objectives of the Women in Partnership against Aids programme are: to establish the number and nature of women’s organisations that can assist in fighting HIV/Aids; to determine what skills they need in order to integrate Aids prevention into their programmes; to establish Women in Partnership against Aids initiatives in each province; and to form the national Women in Partnership against Aids initiative.

Through a series of one-day workshops in all nine provinces, it was possible to establish Women in Partnership against Aids committees in all provinces. These committees are supported by the HIV/Aids unit in the Department of Health and meet regularly to co-ordinate HIV/Aids initiatives. Another initiative is the collaboration between Government, the Royal Danish Government and two United Nations’ agencies in order to address the issue of violence against women and its relationship to HIV/Aids.

We are also working very closely with LoveLife to achieve the same objectives, especially amongst the youth. This project started in 2001. It aims to address the issue of gender inequality and gender violence. Because they are often the first to test positive, often through prenatal testing, women are branded as ``spreaders’’ of the HI virus. Once their HIV-positive status is revealed or disclosed, women face being physically abused, losing access to important economic resources and the threat of being chased away from their homes. Violence, banishment, poverty and death are the frightening realities that confront HIV-positive women in South Africa. The project therefore primarily focuses on creating capacity to respond to the needs of adult and adolescent females who are victims of domestic and sexual violence.

One strategy is to increase awareness and community response to those affected. Promotion of the Stop Women Abuse Helpline, which is managed by LifeLine, is one initiative from that project. It is aimed at reducing new HIV infections in South Africa by reducing the incidence of violence against women in the country. Another example, regarding the Department of Education, is the Girls’ Education Movement which is aimed at eradicating sexual harassment and abuse of girls in schools. It focuses on the participation of girls and educators in the department, and Unicef supports them. The goal is to facilitate a more comprehensive and effective response to the HIV epidemic over the next three years by addressing the relationship between violence against women and vulnerability to HIV/Aids.

One of the other initiatives which the Department of Health has undertaken is to distribute female condoms. In the current financial year, this commitment has increased and 2,5 million female condoms were purchased at a cost of R18,5 million for distribution in 200 sites. The demand for female condoms is increasing daily.

I also want to address the initiatives that are being taken by Government in terms of addressing the legal system. The Government is in the process of introducing legislation which will make it compulsory to test the HIV status of sexual offenders. This is a very important initiative because it is going to make sure that, as the courts address the issue of rape, they will also address the issue that the offender may have transmitted HIV to the victim.

It is important, at this point, to highlight the issue of nutrition. The Government is addressing this issue in order to make sure that poverty and lack of nutrition are dealt with in a multipronged way which includes the Departments of Social Development and Agriculture and Land Affairs.

In conclusion, it is important to reiterate the commitment of the Department of Health to addressing the issue of the impact of HIV/Aids on women and girls. We continue to expand our partnerships to ensure that we meet the needs of the caretakers of our society. Women form the backbone of our family structures. It is important that we protect and promote their wellbeing in society. [Applause.]

Mrs M S MAINE: Madam Speaker and hon members, the committee’s priority on this issue is to monitor how Government is addressing the impact of poverty, HIV/Aids and violence on women and girls.

We have to look at the intersection between HIV/Aids and gender violence in women’s lives. This intersection is evident in rape, abusive relationships, sexual behaviour of women and, in the event of women receiving HIV counselling and testing, this may result in partner violence.

The authors state that few programmes address this intersection. Some recommendations are put forward to address the information and intervention gaps. Among these are that voluntary counselling and testing services should also focus on issues of domestic violence; the integration of the work of the violence against women and the HIV/Aids sectors; the prioritisation of the development of microbiocides; and, ensuring that shelter for abused women is accessible to HIV-positive homeless women.

According to the Joint UN Programme on HIV/Aids, the greatest number of persons who are HIV infected are in sub-Saharan Africa. Within this statistical picture, more women than men become HIV infected. South Africa reflects this reality. In addition, young women are the fastest growing population of people infected. The fact that some men refuse to use a condom should be considered a violation of a woman’s human rights, specifically the right to protection of bodily integrity, and an act of violence. Biological make-up should never be considered an area of vulnerability that cannot be reduced. When looking at the challenges of implementing a human rights response in the area of violence against women and HIV/Aids, it is clear that there are a number of interventions that will assist in reducing women’s vulnerability to HIV/Aids from this perspective as well.

As our Government addresses the issue of HIV/Aids, the issue of research should be highlighted. Recent studies demonstrate that women appear to respond differently to the HI virus than men. The interrelationship between HIV/Aids and women is however broader than an individual woman who is HIV infected.

There are instances where an HIV diagnosis appears to provoke abuse and violent behaviour. The belief that sex with a virgin, usually a young girl, can cure HIV appears to be widespread in Southern Africa. In addition, the researchers cite anecdotal evidence that the disclosure of an HIV-positive status may also provoke a violent reaction.

The fact that some women, the actual numbers being irrelevant, live in fear, are restricted in their movement and face barriers to economic independence is clearly an act of violence. These factors are major determinants in women’s vulnerability to HIV.

HIV/Aids and violence against women pose a challenge for two very important sectors in our society. For many years, for longer than the establishment of the Aids sector, the women’s movement has responded to issues that increased women’s vulnerability in society. In order for us to be successful in addressing this new and urgent threat to women, the two sectors must begin to work together more closely, engage actively in debating and understanding the threat and the meaning of a human rights approach, and act as a watchdog to ensure the implementation of those human rights principles. The Government’s HIV/Aids and STD strategy plan has recognised and agreed that the seroprevalence rate among young women aged 20 to 30 is high, and that the HIV epidemic is severely affecting the young black economically poor population of South Africa. Adding to all the above, poverty is increasing the level of vulnerability. Poverty suffered by women in South Africa is considered the most common and serious violation of human rights. Poor rural women understand implicitly, and without knowledge of sophisticated statistics, that poverty is to them a daily lifestyle.

A critical issue for parliamentarians is the clear and unambiguous identification of the poor, the formulation of poverty measures, and assessing the impact of poverty interventions. We should, as parliamentarians, gain a conceptual understanding of various dimensions of poverty. The five dimensions of poverty are: real poverty, being the lack of resources to generate income; physical weakness due to undernutrition, malnutrition, illness or disability; vulnerability to crisis which increases the risk of becoming poorer; and, powerlessness within existing social, economic, political and cultural structures.

Geographical poverty is severe and concentrated in the rural areas. We as the Joint Monitoring Committee on Improvement of Quality of Life and Status of Women held a workshop in Parliament where attempts were made to involve women who are most marginalised, namely, the poor and rural women. The issues of poverty and HIV/Aids were thoroughly discussed.

Re na le maikarabelo rotlhe mo Ntlong e go tshegetsa le go rotloetsa botlhe ba ba tshwaeditsweng le ba ba amegileng mo bolwetseng jo gore rotlhe ba re ipitsang gore re ba ba falotseng re ba neye tsholofela ya go batla go tshela, le gore re tshwaragane ka matsogo kwa ntle ga go tlhopha mmala kgotsa maemo a motho mo go lweng le go pholosa naga ya rona le lefatshe lotlhe mo kgodumong e e setlhogo e.

Ka jalo ke baya pegelo eno fa pele ga Ntlo e, go e amogela jaaka sekao sa maikano a rona a go lwela kgololosego mo tshwaeding eno. Ke tshitshinya jalo. [Legofi.] (Translation of Setswana paragraphs follows.)

[All of us in this House have a responsibility to stand by and encourage all those who have been infected and those who have been affected by this disease so that all of us who regard ourselves as having escaped should give them support to want to live. We should hold each other by the hand without choosing according to colour or social status in the fight to save our country and the whole world from this cruel disease.

As such, I table this report in this House, to be accepted as an example of our vow to fight for freedom from this infection. I hereby move. [Applause.]]

Ms J A SEMPLE: Madam Speaker, the Democratic Alliance had a real fear that this important report, the result of many months of hard work by the Joint Monitoring Committee on Improvement of Quality of Life and Status of Women, tabled in November last year, would never see the light of day in a parliamentary debate. For months, it was not even below the line on the Order Paper, and we have to believe that it is only through persistent prodding that this debate is taking place a year later.

We would like to pay tribute to the former Chairperson of the JMC, Pregs Govender, for her dedication to the women of South Africa and her brave insistence that this report should be published, even if it was contrary to ANC popular belief at the time. The report examines the extent and nature of the crisis HIV/Aids poses to all South Africans, some of the contributing factors to the spread of HIV/Aids in South Africa, the impact on women and girls, and the recommendations for prevention and treatment. In the time available, I will deal with the first two aspects, while my colleague, Bernice Sono, will deal with the other two.

This House does not need to be reminded that the HIV infection rate has increased significantly in the last five years. In fact, recent estimates suggest that of all people living with HIV in the world, six out of every 10 men, eight out of every 10 women, and nine out of every 10 children are in sub-Saharan Africa. The report states that these figures provide sufficient evidence that HIV/Aids should be made both a regional and a national priority.

Surveys of women attending antenatal clinics for the past nine years provide a good estimate of HIV prevalence and trends over time in South Africa. These show that, from 1990 to 1999, it went from 0,7% to 22,4%, and it ranges from an infection rate of 7,1% in the Western Cape to 32,5% in KwaZulu-Natal. Additional information from the survey reveals that the HIV epidemic in South Africa is one of the fastest growing epidemics in the world.

Of more significance in this report is the fact that young women aged between 20 and 30 have the highest prevalence rate, and young women under 20 years have the highest percentage increase compared to other aged groups in 1998 compared to 1997. These and other data clearly indicate that the HIV/Aids epidemic is severely affecting the young, black and economically poor populations of South Africa. Aids is still not a notifiable disease and voluntary reporting seriously underestimates the number of people living with HIV/Aids.

The DA supports the committee’s recommendation for a holistic, integrated response that encompasses prevention and treatment, that addresses HIV/Aids, poverty and gender-based violence, and that is driven by people living with Aids.

Nksz M XULU: Ngiyabonga mhlonishwa Somlomo namalungu ahloniphekile. Udaba olusezithebeni namuhla olubuhlungu kunazo zonke ngoba kukhulunywa ngokubhubha kweSizwe, yinhlekelele yomhlaba.

Okokuqala ngithi angincome ikomidi elihambile lathola zonke lezi zinto ezisembhalweni walo ngoba yize ngangingekho mina ngithe uma ngiyifunda iriphothi ngathola ukuthi ikhuluma ngezinto ezithinta abantu ngempela abahlukumezekile. Ngizokhuluma lapha okokuqala ngabantu besifazane abahlukumezekile baze basala negciwane lengculazi.

Kulo mbiko uthola ukuthi ngempela abantu besifazane banenkinga enkulu okokuqala umuntu ohlukumezekile wesifazane kwezinye izindawo uyesaba ukusho ukuthi udlwenguliwe. Angazi ukuthi udlwengulwe nje usesele nesisu ngaphakathi. Uthi uma ethola ukuthi ekudlwengulweni kwakhe uthole ingane, ukhulelwe, bese eba nokwesaba kakhulu. Kangangokuba omunye uye afise ngisho nokuzibulala. Omunye usaba noma senizamile ukumkhanselisha nimusha kumasoshali wekha, angakwazi ukusho ukuthi ngempela inkinga yakhe enkulu nansi. Kukhona nezingane zamantombazane ezinye ezehlelwa yilo mkhuba wokudlwengulwa, zaze ezinye zalahlekelwa yizimilo zazo.

Omunye nje umzali wayekhala ethi ingane ayisahlali ekhaya seyahlala endaweni lapho kudayiswa ngemizimba. Kodwa le nto yaqala ngokuthi ingane idlwengulwe yilungu lomndeni, yaphinde yadlwengulwa umakhelwane. Yagcina le ngane seyifana nomuntu odlebelekile. Sikhuluma lapha ngengane eneminyaka eyishumi nantathu. Sikhuluma ngengane ebifunda u Grade 7, namhlanje engasenayo indawo emhlabeni yokuphila njengabantu bonke.

Okwesithathu sithi ngokubona ukuthi abantu abaningi abafundisekile ngokuthi bakwemukele osekubavelele. Yilesi sikhathi lapho kufanele kuphunyelwe ngaphandle kufundiswe abantu ukuthi okumvelele akakwemukele. Futhi eriphothini siyakuncoma ukuthi uhulumeni uphumele obala ukuthi uzofaka la ukufundisa abantwana kusuka ephrayimari kuze kuyofika esekhondari. Siyakuncoma lokho sithi kuyinto enhle, sengathi kungabuya futhi kuqhutshekwe kufundiswe nabantu abadala ngoba siyabona ukuthi abahlonishwa nabo bephuma, bephuma umkhankaso kuzwelonke, nemisakazo yonke. Kodwa sengathi akukakafundiseki kahle.

Ngithi-ke mina lapha ngaseqenjini lethu leNkatha yeNkululeko, angincome umholi wethu umhlonishwa uShenge ngoba usithumile thina bantu besifazane. Usithume ngoba siyindlu yamandla. Usithume ngoba singonozala kuzwakala kithi kuqala, wathi asiphume sivolontiye siye emzini yabantu, siyobona ukuthi kwenzekani singasiza ngani.

Bahlonishwa siphumile, abanye kule ndlu mhlawumbe ngeke bakholwe. Kukhona abantu abahlaselwe yilesi sifo abangasakwazi ukuphuma babonwe ngabantu, ababavalele emakamelweni emakhaya abomndeni ngoba nabo bengazi ukuthi benze njani bayesaba.

Kunezincomo-ke okufanele sizisho lapha ngoba kokunye uthola ukuthi umuntu uyagula lapha ekhaya, akakwazi ukudla amaphilisi ngoba ulambile, akasebenzi. Uthi akasakwazi ukuya emsebenzini nodokotela akamniki incwadi yokuthi ayocela nasempeshenini okungamsiza. Sithi-ke ngoba odokotela nabo bahamba ngomthetho, besicela ukuthi odokotela bengesize yini ngokuthi bafingqe leso sikhathi. Kungashiwo ukuthi umuntu uyogula aze afike ezingeni elithile kube yima enikwa incwadi yokuyocela usizo. Uma kubonakala ukuthi useyagula, akasizwe phela athole mhlawumbe imali noma ukudla ukuze akwazi ukuthi aqhubeke namaphilisi kumbe akwazi ukuqhubeka nempilo yakhe.

Okokugcina, sincoma amakhosi ezwe lonke lawa nawo azihlanganisile nokuzwelana nokuhlupheka kwabantu besifazane. Azihlanganisile ngokuzwelana ngokuhlupheka kwalesi sifo okukhona esiphumile. Ngakho-ke sithi nawo siyawabonga. Ngoba ayakhombisa ukuthi ngempela anathi kukho konke okukhona.

Siyathanda ukucela kuhulumeni ukuthi lapho umuntu engasakwazi ukwenza utho, engadli lutho, kodwa zikhona izinto ezimsizayo, zikhona izimpushana leziesiyaye sizithole ezibizayo. Uhulumeni kufanele azame ukuthola lezo zinto, azifake ezibhedlela nasemaklinikhi ukuze abantu bakwazi ukusizakala labo abangasakwazi ukwemukela lutho abangakwazi kuphuza lutho. Uma umfaka leyo mpushana uyenza idokwe uyayiphuza amandla abuye. [Ihlombe.] (Translation of Zulu speech follows.)

[Miss M XULU: Madam Speaker, hon members, the issue on the table today is a most painful one, because we are talking about the destruction of the nation. We are talking about an international disaster.

Firstly, I would like to thank the committee that went out and found out all these things that are in its report. Even though I was not present, when I read the report, I found that it dealt with things that affected people who are infected with the disease. I am going to talk about women who were victimised and ended up getting Aids.

In this report, one finds that, indeed, women have a big problem. In some places, an abused woman is afraid to report that she has been abused. She does not know that from that incident, she fell pregnant. When some find that out, they are so afraid that they even commit suicide. One woman was afraid even after we had taken her to counsellors and to social workers. One would not be able to say what the problem is.

There were some young girls who found themselves in the dreadful situation of having been raped. Some even lost their record of good behaviour. One parent was crying, saying that the child was no longer staying at home but instead at an escort agency. This started when the child was raped by a family member and then by a neighbour. The child ended up being a vagrant. We are talking here about a 13-year-old child. We are talking here about a girl who was doing Grade 7 and who now does not have a place to live like everyone else on the face of this earth.

Thirdly, since we realise that people are not counselled about accepting what has happened to them, this is the time to go out and teach people to accept what has happened to them. In the report, we recommend that the Government should come forward in this regard. It must introduce this into the children’s education at primary up to secondary level. We recommend this. We say it is a good thing. We wish that adults should also be taught, as we have seen hon members doing, when they go out. They, as well as the media, were on a national campaign. But it looks as if people have not been taught well.

What I am saying is that in my party, the IFP, we would like to congratulate our leader, hon Shenge, because he sent us, the women. He sent us because we are a power house. He sent us because we are the ones who give birth and we feel the pain before anyone else. He said that we must volunteer to visit people in their homes. We should go and see what is happening and how we can help.

We went to people. Perhaps some people in this House will not believe it. There are people who are infected with this disease and who cannot even go outside and be seen by people. Their families have locked them inside their rooms because they do not know what to do, and they also are afraid.

There are recommendations that we should make here because one finds that a person is ill at home and he cannot take pills because he is hungry and unemployed. He says he cannot go to work and the doctor cannot give him a letter so that he can apply for a pension that can help him. We say, because doctors have rules to follow, that we would like to ask if doctors could help with decreasing the time they have to wait for help. They must not say to a sick person that he should reach a certain level before they give him a letter to apply for help. When it is clear that he is sick, he must be helped. Perhaps he must be given money or food so that he can continue taking pills and even be able to continue with his life.

Lastly, we congratulate amakhosi all over the country who came out and participated in showing sympathy for the hardship faced by women. They engaged themselves by showing sympathy for the hardship caused by this disease. Therefore, we would like to say to them: ``Thank you.’’ They show us that they are with us in everything that happens to us.

We would like to ask the Government, because when a person cannot do anything, and has nothing to eat, there are still things that can help that person. There is this expensive powder that people get. The Government should try and make those things available in hospitals and clinics so that people can get help, especially those who can neither eat nor drink anything. When a sick person is given that powder, especially if it is cooked like porridge, and he drinks it, the energy comes back. [Applause.]]

Mrs S M CAMERER: Madam Speaker, as previous speakers have said, this report was unanimously adopted by the committee, of which I am a member, a year ago. It was formally tabled in Parliament at the beginning of this year’s session in February. It is extraordinary, and sadly symptomatic of the Government’s initially slow-motion approach to the Aids pandemic, that it has taken a year from completion to get the report onto Parliament’s agenda for debate.

Perhaps, however, there is a silver lining to this dark cloud that is engulfing so many women of our country in stigma, suffering, poverty and premature death. We believe the fact that this debate is being held now signals a new direction by Government, a willingness to acknowledge the extent of the disease and its devastating impact on our society, to acknowledge who, in the main, the victims are and to tackle the wicked myths motivated by fear that are undermining our moral fabric and leading to baby and child rapes on an unprecedented scale.

LoveLife has revealed that one in four young South Africans do not even know that the claim that sex with a virgin cures HIV/Aids is a wicked myth. In September last year, the late Steve Tshwete disclosed that child rape had doubled in just one year. I challenge the current Minister of Safety and Security to update those figures one year on. If the constant stories in the media of baby and child rapes are anything to go by, the situation has got worse.

The report endorses the Government’s plan, but urges that it be fully implemented and fully operationalised. The New NP repeats that call today. Sadly, since these recommendations have been made, countless women and babies have been infected, countless women have died needlessly, and thousands of children have been needlessly orphaned. Hopefully, this debate signals Government’s intention to tackle the disease head-on with treatment, action, medication and support. The subtext of this report is that, quite apart from other laudable and necessary steps to combat the pandemic, Government seriously needs to tackle making antiretroviral drugs available at state hospitals to Aids sufferers to turn this pandemic around. This is going to be the inevitable way forward.

It is clear from the report that young women and girl children bear the brunt of the HIV/Aids scourge, as other speakers have said today. A few statistics prove the point: in South Africa, in the 10 years from 1990 to 2000, HIV prevalence in pregnant women rose from 0,7% to over 23%; young women in the 20 to 30 year age group had the highest rates of infection; and girls between 15 and 19 years of age had the highest percentage increase in infection - a whopping 68% year-on-year.

The committee examined why women have become the main victims of the Aids pandemic, and found that women’s vulnerability to Aids stems from a range of social, economic, biological, cultural and even legal factors. For instance, women trying to get men to - according to the slogan - ``Abstain, Be faithful and Condomise’’, often face beatings, rejection and even death. Scientific studies have established that 39% of South Africa’s girl children between the ages of 12 and 17 have been forced to have sex. Society’s double standards give males the licence to be sexually adventurous. United Nations Aids research in South Africa has found that most women and girls are infected by their male partner, to whom they are faithful.

Some attention was devoted in the report to the urgency of preventing mother-to-child transmission and the fact that Government was restricting the use of prophylactic medicines to a few pilot sites. This grim situation has now been overtaken by events, thanks to the Constitutional Court’s judgment which has forced Government to roll out a programme to administer nevirapine to HIV-positive pregnant women to prevent mother-to-child transmission at all state hospitals. Parliament needs to undertake an ongoing monitoring action of Government action in this regard. It is heartening to note, however, that in the Western Cape, where the ANC partners the New NP in government, there is 100% roll-out of this programme.

The committee made various general recommendations regarding public education campaigns, home-based care, empowerment of women and girls and implementation of the Equality Act. The key, as far as women are concerned, is for Government to fully operationalise all aspects of prevention and treatment as spelt out in its plan and for a woman to be in a position to make informed choices economically, politically and socially, so that poverty, violence and HIV/Aids do not decide for her.

The committee studied the Brazil example, where the huge gap between rich and poor is similar to South Africa’s. A devastating Aids crisis in that country early in the nineties was turned around by a vigorous prevention and treatment campaign, including free drugs to Aids sufferers at state hospitals. Short of saying so, the committee clearly believes South Africa should go the same route. Other countries in Africa, like Uganda, Ivory Coast, Senegal and Botswana, have turned infections around; so can South Africa.

Ms J MOLOI: Madam Speaker, hon members, I would like to mention that the majority of the reported cases of HIV in South Africa are women. This is a direct consequence of the triple oppression that women have always talked about, namely that of racism, sexism and class differences borne by women and particularly African women.

The political and economic environment inherited from the past has increased women’s risk of HIV infection. Women’s particular vulnerability is increased by the kinds of jobs the apartheid regime forced upon them, which include domestic work, agriculture, trading and sex work. The kinds of jobs women are subjected to result in the exercise of an enormous amount of control over women’s lives. This can take many forms. For example, a man may refuse to wear a condom with a sex worker and beat her up when she insists, or offer her more money for sex without a condom. Deepening levels of poverty experienced by the majority of African women reduce their ability to be economically self-sustaining, to access reproductive health care and education, to claim rights to clean water and sanitation, and to insist on their right to determine when, why, with whom and how they will have sex. Forced separation under the apartheid regime resulted in women carrying the additional burden of running their families without the help of their husbands.

This is a very sad situation, not only for women, but also for all loving and caring families in our lovely country. We were faced with a dilemma as to how we could best address these issues, but, fortunately, as the current Government we decided to strengthen information given, education, social mobilisation and communication on HIV/Aids, STDs and TB. We have formulated policies on home-based care and training for health workers, NGOs and volunteers, and we have mobilised all departments to deal with the scourge of HIV/Aids. In fact, it is no longer just the responsibility of one department, but is mainstreamed within all the programmes of Government, in all the departments.

Comprehensive care for people living with HIV/Aids is not only limited to the increased provision of antiretroviral drugs, but is also dependent on available and accessible voluntary counselling and testing, that is VCT services; prevention and treatment of tuberculosis and infections; prevention and treatment of HIV-related illnesses; palliative care; prevention and treatment of sexually transmitted infections; prevention of further HIV transmission through existing technologies, for example, male and female condoms and clean needles and syringes; using future technologies, for example, vaccines and microbes; behavioural changes; family planning; good nutrition; social, spiritual, psychological and peer support; respect for human rights; and reducing the stigma associated with HIV/Aids.

All these factors contribute towards a comprehensive strategy for HIV/Aids. A central element of a comprehensive HIV/Aids care strategy is the wholesome integration of prevention and treatment, planning and intervention. Prevention and treatment can no longer be seen as unrelated strategies. However, treatment in the form of drugs is an essential tool in the response to the morbidity and mortality caused by HIV/Aids, but it is not the only solution. People living with the virus must have access to a wide range of treatment, care and support options provided across the continuum.

In 2001, UNAIDs called for a new deal with industry to ensure that the new form of HIV treatment is made available to people living with HIV/Aids in low and middle-income countries, as it is to those in high-income countries. Also, in November 2001, all 142 World Trade Organisation member states endorsed the Doha Declaration on the Tripps Agreement and public health. The Doha Declaration states that public health crises, including those related to HIV/Aids, tuberculosis, malaria and other epidemics, can present a national emergency for which governments can issue a comprehensive licence authorising, under certain conditions, the use of patent products.

We cannot deny the fact that approximately one third of people living with HIV/Aids worldwide are living in sub-Saharan Africa. In these statistics, it is important to note that tuberculosis is also the leading cause of death among HIV-infected people, and that HIV has been responsible for a global scourge in a number of cases of active tuberculosis. In this regard, community care and support groups have sprung up almost everywhere the epidemic has appeared - from the richest to some of the poorest countries - to provide comfort and hope for people living with HIV/Aids. Support is needed for families carrying the burden of care to prevent them from falling apart and to enable care-givers to perform other critical tasks apart from that of providing care.

It is important to note that, over the past decade, national HIV/Aids responses could not reach the necessary scale for maintaining quality or providing sufficient flexibility by acting solely through centrally operated programmes. However, when working in close partnership with NGOs, a great deal can be accomplished. Our most powerful instrument is the masses themselves. We have to mobilise people into this whole activity. The ANC is aware of the issue of mobilisation and the power that lies in it. In particular, the commitment of political and economic opinion among decision- makers and communities to make decisive inroads into the epidemic by paying equal attention to HIV prevention and HIV care in our country is encouraging.

The ongoing development of treatment, care and support plans of action by co-ordinating bodies, and the efforts of international governmental and nongovernmental organisations are actually assisting. For us to move in the right direction, we have to picture how a bicycle functions. It cannot move if one wheel is damaged or the handlebars are facing the wrong way. It has to be oiled; it has to have all its components functioning together for a cyclist to be successful in propelling it forward. The time has come to stop arguing and scoring political points while our people are dying outside. Let us fight the virus. Let us work together to find an acceptable solution to ensure that our children are able to live their lives to the full, free of the devastating effects that HIV/Aids can have on them and their families, friends and fellow citizens.

In conclusion, I want to say that we want to endorse the fact that the ANC Government Cabinet Statement in April this year made mention of the fact that …

… silindele ntoni? Indlela icacile, ivulekile. [… what are we waiting for? The way is clear and open.]

In other words, why are we still waiting? There is a clear way and there are strategies developed by Government. Why do we not focus on dealing with the actual issue of the virus? And again, we want to say thank you for the wonderful work that the committee has done to ensure that public hearings were embarked upon and to ensure that this issue received the attention it deserves. [Applause.]

Ms N C NKABINDE: Madam Speaker, the report of the JMC on Improvement of Life and Status of Women before us, like much of the documented research in the field of women and HIV/Aids highlights, more than anything else, the continuing inferior status that many women occupy in South African society. The adoption of the Constitution and particularly the Bill of Rights enshrines, in theory, the equality and dignity of women but, in practice, a great many women still live in a world dominated absolutely by men.

I raise this issue because so much of what we discuss and what Government attempts to do depends on the existence of gender equality. What hope is there that the distribution of massive amounts of condoms will succeed if women cannot insist that men should use them or when men construe such insistence as an admission of promiscuity on the part of women?

Similarly, the Government is finally getting around to improved assistance for rape survivors, but it remains in essence a reactive and not a proactive approach. That rape occurs is a symptom of the real problem that faces many women in this country, the challenge that this Government is still failing to address. Rape is, in the final analysis, a violent expression of the power of a man over a woman. Every rape that occurs is a blatant mockery of the Bill of Rights.

What needs to happen more than anything else is for our society to begin the long-overdue transformation of gender relations. The word ``transformation’’ has been used in this House to such an extent that it may have lost its meaning. It is a shame, though, that gender transformation has not occurred. Parliament itself is in the forefront of changing this and it should be applauded for its efforts, but we should not fool ourselves that outside of this Chamber much has changed for the majority of women. Who has the highest HIV infection rates? Who carries the burden of a single parent household? Who is often the breadwinner in such households? Who carries the brunt of poverty? Who is the victim of domestic violence? Who is the victim of rape and gang rape? It is women!

If we as a society continue to allow some men to believe that they are superior and entitled to whatever they wish from women, we will fail utterly. The report before us contains various excellent and well- considered proposals and policy improvements, but these will not stand if they are built on a foundation of pervasive patriarchy and disrespect for women.

We must expect of our male colleagues in this House and in Government to lead the way. All men are not abusers, and all men are not rapists. Those that are not should stand up and be counted. We must applaud such efforts as the Men’s March that will take place again this year on 25 November

1. In the same spirit, we must condemn the callous and blithe comments by the National Commissioner of Police that domestic violence cannot be policed because he cannot place Saps members in people’s bedrooms.

Just as we cannot tolerate the incident that elicited an official parliamentary press gallery warning because a certain member of Cabinet sexually harassed a female reporter, it is exactly this type of attitude by men in power that provides the fertile breeding ground for the abuse of women. It is exactly this type of attitude that discourages women from going to a police station to report abuse, purely because they do not wish to face further humiliation. It is also the attitude that expects of women alone to take responsibility for avoiding and preventing their abuse. It is a fallacy that must be denounced once and for all.

Equality means equal responsibility. Its … [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order! Your time has expired, hon member.

Ms N C NKABINDE: Its absence is what stands between women and their full recognition as equal members of a democratic society. [Applause.]

Mrs R M SOUTHGATE: Madam Speaker, it is noted that by 2005, about six million South Africans will be HIV/Aids positive. This figure is speculative since the right of people to divulge information publicly about their HIV status is protected and, therefore, the ACDP recommends a review of this policy and that HIV/Aids becomes a notifiable disease. The report mentions that according to the SA Law Commission, in the year 1998, the highest number of rapes were committed in South Africa. This led Interpol to rank South Africa as the number one country for rape in that year. The picture has not changed. Babies as young as five months old are being raped even though we, as the custodians of the nation’s safety, speak about having crime under control.

Every unsolved crime or causal factor of crime such as the myth that having sex with an infant cures HIV/Aids exponentially multiplies the chances of women and children being at risk of being criminally and sexually abused. It is suggested that one of the major causes for the epidemic is behavioural patterns. The role of commercial sex workers is mentioned in the report as a leading factor in the rise of HIV/Aids. The ACDP wants to reiterate its position that prostitution must be banned. This is the only humane way to give women back their dignity and health and to free them from commercial sexploitation. The state will have to spend billions of rands to treat the symptoms when it would cost it less if it had simply tackled the problem of HIV/Aids.

The Government is apparently drafting the strategic plan to deal with HIV/Aids, and we just want to say that it is going to be a very, very difficult position, as the ACDP calls again for HIV/Aids to become notifiable. One of the victories achieved, though, is the public’s pressure on pharmaceutical companies to allow generic medicines onto the South African market while we are waiting for the Government to fulfil its commitment to politically roll out those efforts to fight the pandemic. Mr D C MABENA: Igama lamakhosikazi naboo baba! [In the name of women and men!]

HON MEMBERS: Malibongwe! [The name of women!] [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order! I wish to congratulate the hon member on being the only male on the speakers’ list. [Applause.]

Nmz D C MABENA: Igama lamakhosikazi! Sihlalo, malungu ahloniphekileko, angithome ngokuthokoza abomma abayibamba itjhisa yabe yapholela esandleni. Abomma abagadangela bona babe nezwi nokobana lizwakale kuMbuso. Abomma abatjhugulula iindawo zokusebenzela, imikhandlu kunye nemithetho ebigade iqindezele iimpilo zabo. Ngingakhohlwa ukuthokoza uNgqongqotjhe wezokuhlalisana nokuthuthuka noNgqongqotjhe wezemisebenzi ngokusekela nokukholelwa kumigomo abawaphasisako aphathelene nokwenza ngcono iimpilo zabomma nemindeni yabo.

Nawungatjheja khulu emasontweni, abomma ngibo abakholwa ngobunengi kodwana abobaba ngibo ababeka umthetho. Kuyathokozisa nokho bonyana abomma banezwi ngetempeleni begodu ngibona abanengi sebembeselwe ubufundisi. (Translation of Ndebele paragraphs follows.)

[Mr D C MABENA: In the name of women! Deputy Speaker, hon members, let me first start by thanking those women who could seize hold of the iron whilst it was hot and held onto it until it grew cold in their hands. Those women who strove to have a say and that Government heard what they said. Women who brought about changes in their workplaces, councils and legislatures that were oppressing them. Not forgetting the Minister of Social Development and the Minister of Labour, who supported and believed in the policies that were passed, which dealt with the improvement of the lives of women and their families.

Members will notice that women are the ones who attend churches in large numbers, but men are the ones who legislate. It makes me happy to know that women have a say in the churches and I see that many have been ordained as priests.] Former labour laws promoted migrant labour. That system also compelled our fathers to sell their labour very far from their homes and this resulted in hostels and single hostel dwellings. The majority of black families and individual lives were destroyed, as most men had no choice but to adapt to a new lifestyle. They were compelled by circumstances to engage in extramarital affairs and cohabitation because they found themselves far from home.

Others had to drown their sorrows by drinking excessively and getting involved in practising unprotected sex. Through promiscuous behaviour, they would then contract HIV/Aids. When the time came for them to return home, they would then take with them the virus where loving women and mothers were always willing and prepared to embrace the homecoming of their husbands. At the end of the day, both would share this dreaded disease, both would perish, and the poor children would be left destitute.

Kuba buhlungu khulu kuntandane lokha nazi ngasenamkhuseli. Inengi lalababantwana lithoma ukulelesa, abanye bathengise ngemizimba basesebancani, abanye basetjenziswe ziingebengu ukuthengisa iindakamizwa, abanye bathathe noma ngiwuphi umsebenzi ukuze kuphilwe ekhaya begodu ikhaya ligcine lingasatjhejwa, kube yindawo embi emphakathini - into engaqaleki, efana netjheko lekukhu! (Translation of Ndebele paragraph follows.)

[It is very sad when orphans do not have anyone to look after them. Many of these children become troublesome. Some become prostitutes whilst very young, others are used by criminals to sell drugs, while still others take up any job to earn a living and a home and end up not being taken care of and set a bad example in the community - something that is not appreciated just like the mess chickens make!]

Men often become angry when women try to negotiate safe sex and may even become extremely violent.

Khona kunjalo, nawujayele ukunghwatha umratha befuthi utjhebe ngaso sona leso isandla, kuba mnanjanyana nawukhotha umhluzi osele emnweni. Nawuthatha isigobho ungakasijayeli usisebenzise, kuba nzima. Siyavuma bonyana kunzima ukusebenzisa amakhondomo kodwana madoda nabomma asiwazameni sizabe siwajayele. [Ihlombe.] Akhe ngikhulume ngomuntu okungubaba. (Translation of Ndebele paragraph follows.)

[Yes, it is like if one is used to eating ones porridge and relish with the same hand. It is delicious when one licks off the gravy that is left on ones fingers. If one eats with a spoon and one is not used to doing so, it becomes difficult. We agree that it is difficult to use condoms, but I want to say to men and women: Let us try them, we will get used to them. [Applause.] Let me speak about men.]

A real man is a leader of his family and his community. He is a provider of love, food, shelter and that is why most women like and admire men in uniform because they see responsibility. There are few men who, under the right conditions, would not be able to contribute to their family’s support and thereby restore the dignity of the whole family. And the dignity not only of that man, but also of the whole family is of immense importance to the quality of the whole nation.

I just want to find out what really went wrong with some men. Why are babies, children and women being raped? Why the abuse? It is a disgrace. Are we that sick? Is it not our duty to care for our families? It is never too late to mend our ways. I can start in my home and you can start in yours, and we can transform our society and give hope to our children who are the future of this country. [Applause.] We can change South Africa into a better country as we have proved to the world that we can turn a violent situation into a peaceful and prosperous situation.

Men need to give greater consideration to Aids as it affects the family. Our behaviour puts women and ourselves at risk of contracting HIV. Excessive drinking and other substance abuse leads to unsafe sex and increases the risk of HIV transmission. We also risk infection by using needles and syringes contaminated with HIV when injecting drugs into our bodies.

Lokho ekufanele sikwenze thina simalungu wepalamende newamaphrovinsi, kusibopho kithi eencenyeni zethu emakhaya. [What we should do as members of Parliament and members of provincial legislatures, is to reach an agreement on our side and in our communities.]

We should mobilise community leaders and organise ourselves to give HIV/Aids information at all social and cultural events where the audience is mostly men; promote programmes and   client-friendly services that respond to the special health and reproductive needs of boys and men and lead efforts to raise awareness in special settings such as military personnel, prisoners, migrants and the homeless.

There were issues raised by this committee to the Government and they received attention. Progress has been made and there is proof that Government is committed to eradicating this scourge and has a very comprehensive programme. Government announced the provision of antiretroviral drugs for survivors of rape, the provision of nevirapine to prevent mother-to-child transmission, and the establishment of special prevention of mother-to-child transmission task teams.

A number of inroads have been made. Our Government formed partnerships into alia with LoveLife to look at Aids prevention amongst the youth. The Government also provided R98 million for this new effort to change lifestyles. There are 114 access sites for female condoms, reasonable facilities for testing for HIV/Aids, and the Government will be supplying 350 million condoms free of charge. Nevirapine guidelines have been provided to all provinces for the implementation of the prevention of mother-to-child transmission.

Aziqintwe iinhloko ziphophe, ikomo kanqagu iyokurhamula amawethe. Ngiyathokoza. [Ihlombe.] [Let us leave it at that, let me take a break. Thank you. [Applause.] Mrs M A SEECO: Madam Speaker, hon members, most estimates of the magnitude of the HIV/Aids pandemic in South Africa are based on the national HIV- survey of women. Data from this survey indicates that HIV and Aids are severely affecting the young, black and economically depressed communities in South Africa.

Life expectancy is likely to drop considerably and child mortality will increase. The number of orphans requiring care and protection will grow. The impact of HIV and Aids, particularly on women and girls, cannot be addressed solely as a health issue. There should thus be a holistic integrated response to the prevention and treatment of HIV/Aids which takes issues of poverty and gender-based violence into account, and that makes the participation of people living with HIV/Aids integral in developing effective responses.

In South Africa, it has been estimated that 660 000 children have been orphaned by Aids. The emotional and psychological costs are high for children who lose parents from Aids-related illnesses. The extent of this trauma is exacerbated by factors such as the loss of a breadwinner, poverty and the inability of the community to care for the children affected.

Reports are that women die sooner than men. It is important to fight for treatment, but people do not have money to buy food and medicines. Grandparents are forced to care for grandchildren on their meagre pensions. The introduction of support programmes to families could offer training in home-based patient care.

Women are particularly vulnerable to HIV/Aids. Rape may increase the risk of women and girls contracting HIV. Much has to be done to ensure that women and girls are not exposed to situations that may cause them to contract HIV. The UCDP supports the report.

Miss S RAJBALLY: Madam Speaker, I would like to thank the hon Mabena for joining us women in this very important debate.

Today, 12 women of Parliament showed their solidarity and stood at the podium in this Parliament to condemn this horrific disease. Aids is a harsh reality in South Africa. Do we constantly have to remind ourselves of the frightening statistics that are set to consume us? However, efforts are being made, and it is reports like these that not only serve to remind us of this, but to motivate us to put an end to it.

The MF sadly notes that those who are most prone to fall victim to HIV/Aids are poverty-stricken women and girls. The statistics that estimate that 1 500 people in South Africa get infected every single day may seem an exaggeration, but unfortunately, this is the reality.

The MF stands firm in agreeing with the committee that the matter calls for both regional and national intervention. It expands even further to the private and public sectors, to communities and in fact many institutions and eventually to individual responsibility.

The HIV/Aids problem is huge and the intervention of all the above persons is a must. The ``it wouldn’t happen to me’’ attitude has to be abandoned. Efforts suggested by the committee, such as inculcating a firm education of the disease at all levels, including at schools, are supported. Many parents may feel that sex is a subject best left for a much later, mature age, but the reality is that there are 12-year olds, if not younger, who are already sexually active, and if anything, prevention can be instilled from an early age.

The MF is disheartened by the increase in statistics of infected persons, especially women and girls. As women, we cry out to be liberated from a patriarchal society. Educating ourselves is the first step, and the second step is practising one’s rights and having safe sex.

The MF supports and unites in all efforts to lessen the horrific impact of HIV/Aids on women and girls. [Applause.]

Mrs B N SONO: Madam Speaker, hon members, the impact of Aids on women and girls has to be viewed in a serious light indeed. In Africa, women and girls constitute the majority in terms of numbers. Women are mothers, lovers and daughters; they are the backbone of every household. Visit a household without a mother and you are likely to collide with a dysfunctional household.

In the economic sphere, although their input is minimised, it actually far surpasses that of men. They lack the physical strength, but they are always in the background as part of a support system. Take the health system, for instance. They are the nurses and the cleaners. With regard to the teaching fraternity, they are the teachers. The social service in any country would collapse without women.

By allowing Aids to go unchecked, we face the danger that half of our youth would not reach adulthood. Education will be wasted and the economy will shrink. The impact of the epidemic on the economy is already being felt in most countries. As for now, life expectancy has been significantly reduced, as many people in the 15-49 year age group are now dying of Aids.

The committee endorses the priority areas and goals of the South African HIV/Aids Standard Strategic Plan, but feels more needed to be done. The National Assembly recently agreed to the Patents Amendment Bill, which brought the Patents Act in line with the Tripps Agreement and we therefore urge the Government to capacitate, as a matter of priority, the generic drug industry so that they are able to undertake research and development on generic antiretroviral drugs and medication. We also urge the Government to give due consideration to the DA’s private member’s Bill, which would allow the Government to declare a national emergency on Aids, thereby authorising the manufacture of generic equivalents to antiretrovirals immediately.

Let the Government draw up national policy guidelines for the management of pregnant HIV-positive women and women with Aids urgently. The role of prophylactic antibiotics for HIV-positive women, as opposed to those with Aids, during labour should be investigated. The committee endorses this holistic approach. The committee again recommended that the Department of Health should develop its operational plan in relation to preventing mother- to-child transmission as required by the Government’s HIV/Aids Standard Strategic Plan with a clear timetable, implementation programme and budget.

There was a range of recommendations the committee undertook. I would like to say that, in this report, we are debating dates as far back as November

1. Events could have overtaken some recommendations from the committee. However, in key policy areas such as HIV/Aids, the adjustment appropriation does not even begin to address the needs for the roll-out of HIV drugs in accordance with the recent constitutional ruling.

I conclude by again imploring this Government to seriously consider declaring HIV/Aids a national emergency and to respond appropriately. Ms L M T XINGWANA: Madam Speaker, first of all, I would like to commend the work that was done by my predecessor, the hon Pregs Govender, my comrade who led this committee since its inception in the first democratic Government under President Mandela. The work that the committee has done has gone a long way towards the improvement of the quality of life of the women of South Africa. [Applause.]

The report before us addresses a number of challenges. The challenges raised in this report deal with the impact of HIV/Aids on women and girls. We see these challenges as not just being directed at the Government, but at all of us as South Africans, all of us as men and women, and as members of Parliament of various political parties in this House. All of us have a role to play in addressing these questions.

Already the Government has started to deal with the question of HIV/Aids. We can look far back to the report or the national Strategic Plan of the Government of 2000-2005, which began to deal with these issues, but I will only look at the past year in terms of what the Government has done.

On 17 April 2002, the Government launched a campaign of hope calling on all sectors of society to join hands in intensifying the campaign to prevent and fight HIV and Aids, and other opportunistic diseases. This is what was called the campaign of hope, which calling on all sectors of society to join hands in intensifying the fight. Since there is no known cure for HIV/Aids, I do hope that God has a cure and will give it to us very soon.

We are saying that prevention remains the best strategy and the core programme of the Government. We are therefore promoting public awareness, life skills and a change in lifestyle and attitude. We are also saying that to date we have achieved a high level of awareness - I think we need to acknowledge that even among our young people awareness has reached the 90% level. Today young people are not arguing about whether they want a condom or not. They are arguing about the quality of that condom and they are prepared to use their allowances and pocket money to go and buy quality condoms from the chemist. That means our campaign is moving along.

We are also saying that the 2001 annual antenatal survey of women in the public sector indicated that the prevalence of HIV/Aids among youth under 20 years of age declined in the past three years. Preventative methods aimed at this sector of the population should be sustained in order to capitalise on these gains. A new phase of the awareness campaign was started in September this year. Members have already highlighted the partnership with LoveLife. I also want to highlight the important inclusion of gender-focused education for women to resist peer pressure and other pressures, to take full charge and responsibility for their bodies and to be able to say no to sex without a condom.

The Government has also increased access to female condoms …

… isi kodwa ke ndifuna ukuhlebela uMphathiswa wezeMpilo ukuba oomama bathi ezi zabo iikhondomu ziyangxola zivusa abantwana. Ngoko ke bacela ukuba maziphuculwe nazo zibe luhlobo oluhloniphekileyo njengeziya zootata. (Translation of Xhosa paragraph follows.)

[… but I would like to make the hon Minister of Health aware that women are complaining about their condoms, saying that they make a lot of noise and wake children. They are asking that the quality of their condoms should be improved and be reasonable like those of men.]

Again the challenge is to ensure that we make condoms, both male and female condoms, widely available, not only in the urban areas, but in the rural areas as well. Other gains include a decline in the prevalence of syphilis among pregnant women, which has amounted to a 50% decrease in the past three years. The South African Aids vaccine initiative is another development that has been achieved by this Government. The Government is developing this vaccine initiative around the subtype C-HIV, which is the type of Aids that is prevalent in South Africa. We hope that clinical trials on this vaccine will be starting in 2003, that is next year. Siyathemba ke ukuba levaccine iza kukhawuleza ibe kho ukuze sikwazi ukuqoma nathi. [We hope that this vaccine is going to be available soon so that we can have a taste of it too.]

When it comes to the treatment and prevention of mother-to-child transmission, the Government has once again moved. The Government has endorsed the roll-out programme for nevirapine for the prevention of mother- to-child transmission. Some of the provinces have indeed made advances in this regard. I will mention KwaZulu-Natal, the North West, the Western Cape and Gauteng as the provinces that have actually made advances in terms of mother-to-child transmission and nevirapine. Other provinces are also following suit, but we would like to recommend that they actually get a move on and follow suit.

With regard to the universal roll-out of nevirapine, challenges remain in respect of training, budget, proper health facilities and community attitudes, intensifying the campaign and also to stop discrimination against people living with Aids. These should be addressed as a matter of urgency.

I would like to commend the Government again for supporting and implementing post-exposure prophylaxis and making it available to rape survivors. It is thus imperative that we ensure that support to rape survivors is widely available and accessible, so that survivors can have access to post-exposure prophy lakes in all our health institutions. We would also like to emphasise that in this regard we want women to exercise their right to choose and they must be well informed and get all the information about the advantages and disadvantages of this treatment.

I would like to move on and say the challenge before us is to ensure that cheap and affordable drugs are available to all in South Africa. Once again, in this regard, the Government has been consulting many pharmaceutical companies and has drawn up regulations that will facilitate the importation and manufacture of cheap generic drugs. The regulations should be informed after technical amendments to the law. The World Summit on Sustainable Development has confirmed that the World Trade Organisation agreement on intellectual and property rights which facilitates access to affordable drugs for major health problems such as HIV/Aids, TB and malaria, particularly in Africa, must be prioritised.

We note that within Nepad and the African Union, a programme has been launched for a number of African countries to work with pharmaceutical companies towards the manufacture of affordable drugs for dangerous diseases, including HIV/Aids, TB, malaria and others. All these efforts will ensure accessibility to affordable drugs. This should be speeded up and treated with the urgency it deserves.

In closing I would like to say that the report also highlights the importance of addressing relationships between men and women, which are characterised by power imbalances. We know … xa umama notata behleli ekhaya [when the husband and wife are at home] … who is running the show. And therefore we need to ensure that our relationships are more equitable and also that the dignity and rights of women are respected within those relationships. I would like to close by saying that this is a challenge to all of us, not just to the Government. We call on members of Parliament, men and women, all political parties, NGOs and civil society to work together in the fight against the scourge of Aids. Let us all work as a collective and make this a national priority together. [Applause.]

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF DEFENCE: Madam Speaker, I want to thank hon members who have participated in these debates and all those who have listened very carefully to what was being said. What I would like to say is that the debate has clearly indicated that what came out of the report is already Government policy.

The hon Sheila Camerer started off by saying that the report endorses Government policy and the plan which all of us are tasked to see through to its implementation. She also said that Parliament has a role in this campaign. I want to endorse that. I think each and every one of us must understand and give a personal undertaking that we all have a role to play. Members of Parliament have a role to go to their constituencies to ensure that the grants that the Government has made available for care-givers of people living with HIV/Aids do indeed reach those people. Members of Parliament have a responsibility to ensure that the capacity that is required in order for the Government programme to be implemented is indeed stepped up.

What has also come out of this debate is that this is a campaign that needs both men and women. I appreciate the contribution that was made here very strongly by a male member of the committee, and the call that he has made to all men to accept that they have the responsibility to protect the women that they are in a relationship with. [Applause.]

It has come out very clearly here that the reason HIV/Aids has such an impact on women and girls originates from the unequal power relations between women and men. It has come out very clearly here that women find themselves having to negotiate with men who do not believe that women are their equals. One of the issues that came out here is that, in many cases, women who are faithful in their relationships find themselves victims of a situation where men do not accept that they have to take the responsibility to be faithful or to ensure that they use condoms to protect the women they are in relationships with.

An hon member from the ACDP mentioned the issue of rape and called for statistics. Indeed, this is an issue that the Government has prioritised. The Minister of Safety and Security has put forward a programme to help Government deal with the issue of rape. Of course, statistics are important because when one says so many people are raped in so many minutes per day, that is something that is emotional and that attracts media attention, but the most important thing is that all of us must work to ensure that we end the scourge of rape. We all have a role to play in ending the scourge of rape rather than saying it is the responsibility of the Minister of Safety and Security or the responsibility of Government. We have seen that there are cases of rape that the Minister of Safety and Security cannot do anything about because members of the family or friends of the family are actually the perpetrators. So, all of us have a responsibility.

The issue of the roll-out of antiretroviral drugs to assist those who may prick themselves by accident and those who are raped is already Government policy. All of us must ensure that we help in its implementation. Most of the time, the problem is not so much that of the budget in terms of putting the money into the problem of HIV/Aids, but it is more a question of getting more people and more capacity that will ensure that we can indeed implement the programme that Government has put in place.

I want to end by congratulating the hon member Renier Schoeman who has been appointed as Deputy Minister of Health. I am sure he is aware of the challenge that faces him in that department, and we are going to support him to ensure that all the people have access to drugs and that all diseases that impact on our people are addressed. [Applause.]

Debate concluded.

Report adopted.

                           EXPLOSIVES BILL

                       (Second Reading debate)

The MINISTER OF SAFETY AND SECURITY: Madam Speaker and hon members, Ms Mamatsieng Claudine Mokone who died in the cowardly attack in Soweto last week when bombs started exploding will be buried this Saturday at Qhulaqwe Village in Lesotho. A memorial service is taking place as we speak at Uncle Tom’s Hall in Orlando West. We wish to join those who are attending the service in bidding her farewell.

We will never know what Ms Mokone was dreaming about when she was hit and killed by a piece of shrapnel from the bombed railway line. Perhaps she was dreaming at that moment, about the possibility that one day she would be moved to a habitable place to call home rather than to continue living in the shack that she shared with her partner, Simon Mokgwathi. Our condolences go to the bereaved family, especially Mr Mokgwathi, who sustained serious injuries from the shrapnel that killed his wife. We wish to remember at this time Ms Mokone’s young children.

Our solidarity and support go to those whose property was damaged by the bomb blasts. Ms Mokone’s death must be a reminder to all peace and freedom- loving South Africans, that our democratic dispensation and all that it stands for need to be defended at all times by all means at our disposal. The arsenal we require for this includes legal instruments like the legislation this Bill introduces. The Convention on the Marking of Plastic Explosives for the purposes of Identification enjoins South Africa to take necessary and effective measures to prohibit the manufacture and movement of unmarked explosives and to exercise strict and effective control over the possession of such material. The convention was incorporated into South African law in 1997. A subsequent change in the classification system of the United Nations regarding explosives necessitated the review of our own legislation. Among other things, the Bill seeks to bring us in line with international determination on these issues.

In addition, modern technology, globalisation, the increased use of fireworks, inadequate penalty provisions as well as the concerns surrounding the possession and use of explosives by persons or groups with sinister motives also necessitated the review of the Explosives Act of 1956, which has become outdated. In the report on terrorism legislation, the SA Law Commission indicates that there has been an annual average of 150 explosions in our country, since the advent of democracy, where explosive devices were used for criminal purposes.

The recent bomb blasts in Gauteng as well as the discovery of arms caches and explosives illustrate the need for improved legislation to deal with problems relating to the possession and use of explosives. In order to protect everybody, nationals and non-nationals alike, Government needs effective and ever-improving legislation. The Bill seeks to put in place an instrument to control the handling of explosives in general and to ensure that offences related to the possession and manufacture of as well as dealing with explosives are subject to severe penalty provisions.

The Bill introduces the investigative tool of presumption of possession of explosives in circumstances that make it difficult to link the possession of explosives to any other person with reasonable certainty. It also empowers the police to take fingerprints and bodily samples of suspects for investigation purposes. Whilst these provisions are necessary and not without a degree of controversy, the Bill still ensures that they comply with constitutional norms and that they can pass muster in the light of our democratic imperatives.

In the review and update of the Explosives Act of 1956, a number of factors, some of which included the following, were taken into account. The threat of international terrorism demands better and stricter control of our explosives. The recent tragic events in Bali are clearly indicative of the need and the threat that explosives pose to all. Incidents where explosions occur due to negligence or by any other means are too frequent. Members will remember the loss of life and large-scale destruction in our residential area in Pretoria, which is a case in point. On that occasion, explosives that were illegally stored at a private residence caused the blast. Another example is the case where a person committed suicide by using explosives to achieve his objective. The creation of a database of explosives manufactured in exported form or imported into the Republic is also necessary to enhance investigations of criminal explosions and to bring the perpetrators to book. Improved legislation will place a duty on person to keep records of explosives and to report lost and stolen explosives and will introduce end-user certificates to ensure that exported explosives are not diverted into the hands of criminals.

It goes without saying that explosives in the wrong hands pose a serious threat to society, whether these are in the possession of a criminal or in the hands of a person who does not possess the necessary knowledge and capability to handle explosives safely and appropriately. The Department of Labour bears the responsibility for explosives within the workplace while the Department of Minerals and Energy’s mandate relates to the mining environment. The Department of Safety and Security and the SA Police Service have an overarching responsibility to ensure the safety and security of the public at large. The Bill carefully delineates the responsibilities of various departments and precludes unnecessary encroachment and collision. Each department will continue to fulfil its responsibilities in conjunction with the SA Police Service in a co-ordinated manner for the benefit of all. When one gives due regard to the destructive nature of explosives and the potential threat that they pose to each and every one of us, it is clear that we can leave no stone unturned in our efforts to effectively regulate and control the manufacture, possession and use thereof. Failure to do so would be a dereliction of duty and severely hamper the chief inspector of explosives and the SA Police Service in the exercise of their duties.

The prohibition on the possession and use of fireworks without a permit has also raised concerns within a certain section of our community. The Bill does not impinge on the cultural or religious rights of certain communities. In fact, it allows for this under controlled conditions by means of the power of the Minister to impose certain exemptions in respect of cultural, religious or traditional celebrations. However, it is important to stress that, in doing so, the Bill strikes a neat balance between the broader interest of our society and the interest and practises of certain religious and cultural communities. This is in line with the norms and values enshrined in our Constitution. I believe that it is significant that the Bill is being debated at a time when Guy Fawkes and Diwali are being celebrated.

Let me remind the House that fireworks can and are used in the manufacture of homemade explosives. While we acknowledge that fireworks are used for bona fide purposes by certain communities, it must also be accepted that dangerous elements of whatever persuasion in our society who may have ulterior and sinister intentions and motives can exploit the easy availability of fireworks.

The Explosives Bill, together with the Firearms Control Act and Anti- Terrorism Bill that will be tabled soon before Parliament, are building blocks in the legislative framework we need to create a safe and secure environment for all our people in terms of the country’s vision of peace and stability. Accordingly, I move that the Bill be approved by the House.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order! The hon Ntuli is making her maiden speech. [Applause.]

Ms J T NTULI: Speaker, hon Minister of Safety and Security, hon members of Parliament, the Explosives Bill is an important piece of legislation which is going to be a major landmark in the control and regulation of the manufacture and rampant use of explosives in our country.

Firstly, this Bill comes as a result of our observation that the Explosives Act, Act No 26 of 1956, needed to be revised so as to tighten penalty provisions and thus deal effectively with technological advances and an increase in the availability and use of explosives. Secondly, since South Africa is a signatory to the international Convention on the Marking of Plastic Explosives for the purposes of Identification, it has become necessary to address the inadequacy of the Explosives Act of 1956 so as to fulfil the obligation imposed by the convention and to be in line with international practice.

The recent bombings which took place in countries such as the USA, Thailand, Indonesia and else where have shown that the peace and stability of yesterday do not necessarily translate into or guarantee the future safety and security of innocent citizens. There is no country in the world that can claim immunity from the threat of horrific accidents.

With this Bill, we want something that will assure law-abiding citizens of their safety and security, while at the same time giving a stern warning to those who draw their satisfaction from the pain of human suffering. Here at home, a series of terror blasts have ripped through Soweto and other areas like Bronkhorstspruit, where a Buddhist temple and a mosque were among the places targeted, which left one person dead and others injured.

On 30 October, The Star newspaper reported that an explosive device was detonated in a togbag near a taxi rank at the Easthof filling station in Dlamini and was defused just before midnight by the police bomb disposal unit. Soon afterwards, the explosions started, including the one that went off at a Buddhist temple in Bronkhorstspruit. It is reported that this Bronkhorstspruit blast was caused by a detonator that went off after falling in the bag that contained about ten kilograms of explosives. In total, between seven and nine explosives went off in one night.

I should remind the House that this is not the first time that the country has been dogged by explosions of this nature, resulting in loss of life and damage to infrastructure. In September 2001, a sixteen-year old schoolboy lost his leg after a home experiment went wrong. He was mixing chemicals in his bedroom and soon there was an explosion. This type of bomb recipe is widely available on the Internet. In October 2000, three people died and at least eight people, including two children, were injured when a house exploded in Pretoria. A fire in the storeroom detonated 125 kilograms of the ammonia-based commercial explosive which was stored there illegally. A case of culpable homicide was opened against the owner of the house who operated a raw blasting company.

I hope that these accounts help to bring into the fold those who have all along been doubtful of the need and cautious about the intention of this piece of legislation. I sincerely hope they now see things differently. This is the time to reassure all South Africans from all walks of life about their safety and security, which is their constitutional right. Were we to fail to come up with a Bill of this nature, we would be failing in our responsibility as this Parliament to do whatever we can to give meaning to these important constitutional principles of the right of our people to freedom and security, and to ensure that we bring about a reduction in criminal activity in general and bomb blasts in particular.

Measures have to be put in place to keep in check anarchists like the ones who were responsible for this spate of bombings. This Bill seeks to do exactly that. I know some of the security measures might be an inconvenience to law-abiding citizens. However, our safety is worth that supposed inconvenience. While the Bill is not aimed at punishing manufacturers and sellers of explosives, if we want to create a safe environment, there is no way we can avoid the control of the use of such explosives.

I must also take this opportunity to address what could be the likely effect of this Bill on women and children, although it would not directly affect women more than any other sector of society. Some areas which may have some effect on women include the restriction on the possession and storage of explosives to explosives manufacturing sites and explosives magazines. There have been cases, as in the example above, where explosives were kept in a residential home and other areas with dire consequences for innocent victims, including women and children. Enforcement of this provision is therefore essential. Strict provisions limiting the possession of literature on explosives and how to make bombs will also assist in protecting women and children from accidents. There have been cases where children have found bomb recipes on the Internet. For example, when experimenting with this recipe, it sometimes goes horribly wrong. Enforcement of this provision will require education of the public on the dangers of experimentation with chemical and other dangerous substances and material.

To conclude, I must point out some of the major strong points of this Bill. Firstly, it increases the investigative powers of the inspector. Secondly, the Bill provides for the establishment of a database to improve record- keeping. All people who import or manufacture explosives must submit a sample of an explosive to the forensic lab of the SA Police Service. Thirdly, the Bill makes provision for ensuring adequate control over explosives. This Bill is a must to deal effectively with the dangers resulting from reckless handling and use of explosives. [Applause.]

Adv P S SWART: Mevrou die Speaker, agb Minister, dit is ironies dat die finale formele bespreking van hierdie wetsontwerp plaasgevind het die oggend nadat Suid-Afrika geruk is deur bomontploffings in Soweto, Lenasia en Bronkhorstspruit. Die feit dat kommersiële plofstof in van hierdie ontploffings gebruik is, onderstreep die noodsaaklikheid van hierdie wetsontwerp.

Laat my toe om weer die DA se medelye te betuig aan die slagoffers van hierdie ontploffings en hulle families, asook om die versekering aan die SA Polisiediens te gee van ons volgehoue steun in hulle werk om die verantwoordelikes aan die kaak te stel. Die skuldiges moet weet dat daar vir hulle in Suid-Afrika geen plek is om te skuil nie.

Ons kan nie toelaat dat geweld en terrorisme ons politieke bestel kontamineer nie, juis omdat die stigtingsooreenkoms van demokratiese Suid- Afrika in 1994 gebaseer is op vrede en demokrasie. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)

[Adv P S SWART: Madam Speaker, hon Minister, it is ironic that the final formal discussion of this Bill took place the morning after South Africa was shaken by bomb explosions in Soweto, Lenasia and Bronkhorstspruit. The fact that commercial explosives were used in some of these explosions, emphasises the importance of this Bill.

Allow me, once again, to extend the DA’s condolences to the victims of these explosions and their families, as well as give the assurance to the SA Police Service of our ongoing support for their work in exposing those responsible. The culprits must know that there is no place for them to hide in South Africa.

We cannot allow violence and terrorism to contaminate our political system, particularly because the founding agreement of democratic South Africa in 1994 was based on peace and democracy.]

Let me say again today, as I did in the past, to the whole of South Africa, that we condemn these acts in the strongest and most unequivocal terms. En hierdie is ‘n onvoorwaardelike veroordeling, sonder enige uitsonderings. [And this is an unconditional condemnation, without any exceptions.]

This is, and always will be an outright condemnation, not like that of the hon Deputy Minister of Foreign Affairs when he condemned the bombings in Bali, but concluded with a but'' to be considered. [Interjections.] Let the message be very clear: There can never be anybuts’’ to justify these acts.

Laat hierdie Parlement nooit ‘n dubbelsinnige boodskap aan moordenaars stuur nie.

Hierdie wetsontwerp sien toe dat daar behoorlike kontrole oor alle plofstowwe is, en ons glo dat die anti-terrorisme wetsontwerp ter aansluiting by die wysigingswetsontwerp op Ontplofbare Stowwe behoorlike wetgewing in plek sal stel om hierdie tipe optrede aan te spreek.

Dit vervang die Wet op Ontplofbare Stowwe van 1956 en sy wysigings, die Wysingingswet op Myne, Bedrywe en Ontplofbare Stowwe van 1964, en artikel 16 van Wet 17 van 1956, wat vervoer van plofstowwe in sekere omstandighede verbied. Hierdie is baie ou wetgewing, waarvan die strawwe, soos beskryf, onvoldoende is, wat nou hersien word.

Voorsiening is ook gemaak vir die implementering van die ``Convention on the Marking of Plastic Explosives for the Purpose of Detection’’, van die Verenigde Nasies. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)

[Let this Parliament never send an ambiguous message to murderers.

This Bill provides for proper control over all explosives, and we believe that the Antiterrorism Bill, in conjunction with the Explosives Bill, will put proper legislation in place to deal with this kind of behaviour.

It replaces the Explosives Act of 1956 and its amendments, the Mines, Works and Explosives Amendment Act of 1964, and section 16 of Act 17 of 1956, which prohibits the transportation of explosives in certain circumstances. These are very old pieces of legislation which are now being revised because the penalties contained in them are inadequate.

Provision has also been made for the implementation of the Convention on the Marking of Plastic Explosives for the purposes of Identification, of the United Nations.]

When this Bill was introduced, it contained a number of problematic clauses, in particular regarding definitions, the way it impacted on the Occupational Health and Safety Act of 1993 and the Mine Health and Safety Act of 1996, the prohibition on a person who is not a South African citizen or the holder of a permanent South African resident’s permit from obtaining a permit to use explosives, and various other minor problems.

Daar was opmerkings oor die konsultasieproses van hierdie wetsontwerp. Ek is tevrede dat alle rolspelers voldoende geleentheid gehad het om die departement te konsulteer en/of die portefeuljekomitee te nader tydens die openbare verhore.

Die finale wetsontwerp akkommodeer voorstelle vir wysigings van bykans al die rolspelers. Op hierdie wyse beperk artikel 2 nou die toepassing van die wet waar dit bots met die bepalings van beroepsgesondheids-en beroepsveiligheidswetgewing.

Die definisie van ‘n bevoegde persoon is uitgebrei om die houer van ‘n geldige werkpermit in Suid-Afrika in te sluit, en maak ook voorsiening vir juridiese persone.

As gevolg van die definisie van plofstowwe, raak dit ook pirotegnici en vuurwerke. Soos gewysig, maak die wetsontwerp nie nou inbreuk op georganiseerde vuurwerkvertonings nie, en in besonder die vermoë van rolprent vervaardigers om voort te gaan met hulle werk in Suid-Afrika, wat baie belangrike buitelandse inkomste in die land inbring.

Belangrik is die gevolg dat enige persoon wat vuurwerke wil gebruik, nou in die toekoms ‘n permit sal moet bekom. Dit was problematies vir spesifieke gemeenskappe, en is reeds gedurende die informele bespreking deur partye in die portefeuljekomitee uitgewys. Met die formele besprekings is artikel 15 gewysig om die Minister te magtig om by wyse van regulasie of deur kennisgewing in die Gazette, soos die DA voorgestel het, ‘n persoon of groep persone uit te sluit van die voorskrifte om ‘n permit te bekom indien dit verband hou met die vieringe van sekere godsdienstige, kulturele of tradisionele gebeurtenisse. Die Minister mag egter steeds spesifieke klasse vuurwerke beperk. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)

[There were comments about the consultation process in connection with this Bill. I am satisfied that all role-players had sufficient opportunity to consult with the department and/or to approach the portfolio committee during the public hearings. The final Bill accommodates suggestions for amendments from nearly all the role-players. In this way section 2 now restricts the enforcement of the legislation where it is in conflict with the provisions of occupational health and safety legislation.

The definition of a competent person has been extended to include the holder of a valid work permit in South Africa, and also makes provision for judicial persons.

As a result of the definition of explosives, it also affects pyrotechnicians and fireworks. As amended, the Bill now does not encroach upon organised fireworks displays, and in particular the ability of film producers to continue with their work in South Africa, which brings vital foreign revenue, into the country.

Important is the consequence that any person who wants to use fireworks will in future, have to obtain a permit. This was problematic for specific communities, as has already been pointed out during the informal discussion by parties in the portfolio committee. In the formal discussions section 15 was amended to authorise the Minister, by means of regulations or by notice in the Gazette, as the DA suggested, to exclude a person or group of persons from the prescriptions to obtain a permit if this relates to the festivities of certain religions, cultures or traditional events. The Minister may, however, still restrict certain classes of fireworks.]

In respect of this final amendment, I am satisfied that all objections have been addressed and that it will not impose on anybody’s rights, be it economic, work-related, religious, cultural or traditional.

Laastens is daar die insluiting van ‘n aantal vermoedens wat verwys na die teenwoordigheid van plofstowwe in geboue, in voertuie en ander plekke. [Lastly, there is the inclusion of a number of prescriptions which refer to the presence of explosives in buildings, vehicles and other places.] We are always wary of presumptions, but in this case, we are satisfied that these are worded in such a manner that it would not place undue hardship on anybody to prove beyond reasonable doubt their innocence when charged under presumption.

Die hele proses met die hantering van hierdie wetsontwerp getuig van heelwat toegewings, spesifiek aan die kant van die ANC, om al die belangegroepe se probleme te akkommodeer. Die DA steun hierdie wetsontwerp.

Vergun my die geleentheid om ook die lede van die portefeuljekomitee te bedank vir hulle werk, en in besonder die regsadviseur van die departement, die staatsregsadviseurs, en ook die sekretariaat vir die harde en toegewyde werk tydens hierdie proses. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)

[The whole process regarding the handling of this Bill testifies to many concessions, specifically on the past of the ANC, to accommodate all the interest groups’ problems. The DA supports this Bill.

Allow me the opportunity also to thank the members of the portfolio committee for their work, and in particular the law adviser of the department, the state law advisers, and also the secretariat for the hard and dedicated work during this process.]

Mr E T FERREIRA: There seems to be unhappiness and opposition from many quarters in society about the Explosives Bill which is before us today. Many people are unhappy about this Bill, from parastatals like Denel to the pyrotechnics industry and religious groupings.

What Denel basically says is that they do not want to be inspected regarding their explosives, that they are professionals, that they know what they are doing and that they should be left alone. The pyrotechnics industry’s life will probably be made slightly more uncomfortable and less profitable because of this Bill, and they are understandably livid about this. No one likes his or her pocket to be affected. There are religious groupings that are worried that this Bill will interfere with their religious practices and celebrations, and even suggest that we are most insensitive to discuss this Bill while some religious festivals are underway at this time of the year.

I wonder whether the opponents of this Bill really fully understand the world that we live in today. I wonder whether they have forgotten 11 September of last year or whether they have forgotten the bombings in the Western Cape a few years ago. I wonder whether they have even heard of the bombings in Soweto last week. Some of our members and citizens may know that many children have lost limbs and that many pets have been killed by ordinary fireworks. What they may not have been aware of is that some pipe bombs were detonated using ordinary fireworks in Cape Town a few years ago.

This Bill very correctly brings fireworks into the definition of explosives. The people who shout that fireworks are toys do not have much of a case. There are examples of fireworks being stuck into animals, I would rather not say where, and the animals are seriously injured or killed when the fireworks explode to the cheap thrill of some deranged people. A toy does not do this. A toy does not detonate bombs either.

We cannot play games when we talk about the sovereignty of the state or the safety and security of our citizens. The truth about this Bill is that it does not take organised fireworks displays away from religious, cultural and traditional events. It even allows for other organised displays, subject to the granting of a permit by the local explosives inspector. Clause 15 even goes as far as saying that the Minister may, by regulation, exempt any person or group of persons from obtaining a permit for the use of fireworks during specified religious, cultural and traditional events. Did the opponents of this Bill read the final product properly?

An issue that is seen as extreme by some is that this Bill makes it an offence to possess electronic publications or printed magazines that contain methods of making explosives. Unless one legally needs to know how to make explosives, or it is in the line of one’s work, for what honest reason would one want to have such material? A while ago, a schoolchild on the Cape Flats made a pipe bomb as a school project. The police had to deactivate it. Explosives are simply not child’s play and something like that should never happen again.

The only issue in this Bill that the IFP is not completely comfortable with is the presumption clauses. We simply do not support the principle that there should ever be a presumption in law that one is guilty. The presumption in this Bill, however, is about as reasonable as one would ever get and, on that basis, we will not oppose it.

In conclusion, we are living in dangerous times with many deranged people intent on causing havoc all over the world, and also in our country. Let us not play with the safety and security of our people. Let us not apologise for this Bill. The IFP supports it. [Applause]. Mr J SCHIPPERS: Mr Chairperson, in the aftermath of the international events in Bali and Moscow where so many people lost their lives, and the explosions in Soweto on 30 November, it is important that we pass this Bill in terms of section 206 of our Constitution. Right-wing elements in South Africa are as dangerous to our young democracy as left-wing elements and cannot be tolerated. Therefore they must be dealt with decisively.

The manufacture and use of explosives are presently regulated by the old Explosives Act, Act 26 of 1956. Modern technology, globalisation, inadequate penalties and the increased use and availability of fireworks are some of the factors that resulted in this Bill. International conventions, to which South Africa acceded in January 2000, also imposed new obligations on South Africa regarding the marking of plastic explosives. The main objective of this Bill is to ensure adequate control over explosives and to adhere to international trends.

There was a major outcry from the Indian community with regard to this Bill. They were of the opinion that this Bill proposes to ban fireworks that form an integral part of the Diwali festival, the festival of lights, that is an annual event. I received a letter from the Indian community via Mr Renier Schoeman, member of Parliament for the New NP in KwaZulu-Natal and now appointed as Deputy Minister of Health. In the letter, Mr Raj Morar raised his concerns, firstly that there was not enough input from the Indian community and, secondly, that there should be an agreement on the timeframe for the sale of fireworks for the Diwali festival.

The New NP can assure the Indian community that there is enough room within clause 15 of the Bill to have the Diwali festival. Paragraphs (a) and (b) of clause 15(2) read:

(a) The Minister may by regulation or by notice in the Gazette exempt any person or any group of persons from obtaining a permit contemplated in subsection (1) if the exemption relates to the use of fireworks in celebration of a specified religious, cultural or traditional event.

(b) The Minister may limit the fireworks which may be used to any specified class and must specify the period for which the exemption is valid.

A lot of other organisations and parastatals raised their concerns that range from the definitions and omissions to the procedures to appoint the chief inspector of explosives. The final Bill is a product which the political parties all agreed on and reached consensus on. The New NP supports the Bill. [Applause.]

Mr M S BOOI: Mr Chairperson, on behalf of the chairperson of the committee, Mr Mluleki George, I would like to thank everybody who participated in this debate.

One can hear from the manner in which the parties that came forward responded to this debate that we are united against crime. The way we talk or speak to each other when we are in the portfolio committee is important. In dire times and in times of crisis, it is important that we hold each other’s hands and that we do not put forward our own party needs but that we put forward the needs of the country itself. That is what members are doing here. That is the behaviour members are displaying at this particular moment.

As the ANC, we want to thank the different members from the respective parties for the manner in which they handled this particular Bill. It is important for us to be able to stand together so that we are able to isolate from our communities and from society those who threaten the democracy that we are proud of. So, we thank members from the different parties for the manner in which they have endorsed this Bill. It will go a long way for the benefit of our country and our children. However, as is always said, this is important for the ANC, because the ANC is the bedrock and is the party which is governing. It is able to lead and has to show leadership during these times.

I am going to quote what the hon the President said in the City Press in order to characterise what happened over the weekend. I quote:

The fact that they may be firmly convinced of the correctness of their views, an opinion we should all respect, does not mean that South African society is obliged to implement their demands simply because a small minority is convinced that it is right and the overwhelming majority wrong. Representation in democratically elected institutions is based on the number of votes that parties garner in elections and not the passion with which those who contest elections cling to their views. This rule applies to everybody on an equal basis.

All this points to the imperative that all of us need to understand and accept the functioning of our democratic system. Amongst other things, this means that we must accept decisions arrived at in a manner consistent with our Constitution and our laws. One of the tasks of our democratic state is to defend both this Constitution and the laws approved under its provisions. The universal demand for respect for the rule of law applies to our country as well.

That is our message and that is what the ANC is saying - that any person who thinks that he is going to derail Government from what it is supposed to be doing for its citizens is in for a surprise and will realise that we are not going to be derailed by them. That is why when members of different parties are speaking in this particular way to show solidarity, also with the bereaved families, it clearly shows that we are standing together and will be able to isolate those who think that they will be able to derail us from our responsibilities.

One of the things which our members have been able to do in a common fashion and in quite a united manner is that they have been able to criminalise the way in which people keep on doing these things. As members have been looking at different incidents which have been taking place within the communities, for example, where children get hold of these explosives, we need to be able to agree on the type of penalties people who are responsible for these explosives should face.

The penalties range between 25 years and 15 years because, as we are saying, we are going to criminalise these activities. We will ensure that when anyone is found with a bomb, he/she will go to prison. Whether one is present at his/her place or not, we are going to make sure that that person has to explain to Government or the police why he/she has done that.

An issue raised by one of our colleagues relates to something concerning one community in particular. The Hindu community is quite worried about what we are doing with regard to explosives and fireworks. The impression created here is that we are more concerned about animals than what the Hindu community is doing. That is not correct.

What has been said has already been read out, and we have been able to come together as different parties and reach a compromise. One person wrote to say that Ministers come and go. We say that is a wrong impression because, as the ANC, we believe that each and every Minister that we appoint to take certain responsibilities within Government does so on behalf of the ANC and on the basis of the policies of the ANC. Those are very responsible people and it is on that basis that we always say that we should give certain responsibilities to those Ministers so that the executive is able to exercise the human relations part of it, that of being able to influence some of the policies as they arise.

If the Hindu community has cultural activities or traditional activities that are supposed to take place, we say they should go to the Minister, interact with him and talk to him. The Minister will always be available to exercise his discretion and intelligence so as to arrive at a decision that will help to keep society together. The basic thing concerning us is the safety and security of our people, and peace and stability in our country. With South Africa’s growing economy, and given the performance of its currency at this particular moment, we say it is important for the security forces to be in a far better position to defend the democracy that we have. With regard to the individual right-wingers who are running amok in the country, trying to make contacts with right-wingers all over the world, we should be able to show them that we do have the capacity as the security services.

It is said, most of the time, that we do not take care of human rights and about what other people are doing. What we are saying, and we are very consistent as the ANC, is that the human rights record which we have has been proved and put us where we are today. We have been consistently campaigning since 1912 for peace in this particular country. Since the formation of the ANC, we have been able to plead and go worldwide and present ourselves as peace-loving people. It is in that context that we are now saying that the work that we are doing and presenting to members of Parliament today is a result of the ANC being influenced and informed by the fact that we do have a record of being caring people, people who will always want to make sure that, wherever we are, there is peace. It is on that basis that we continue with our campaign. Even here, as we lead as the ruling party in Government, we are being informed by our performance in our particular history as the ANC.

The fact that our own former President Mandela was able to get us to abandon the armed struggle is a good contribution to our country and it has been able to get us to where we are today. So, what we are saying is: That is what informs and keeps us going.

Nobody should be worried when we say we give responsibility to our Ministers and we give responsibility to the executive in order to continue reflecting on the changing basis of technology, because we are dealing with technology here. Any firework which is found not to be powerful today becomes more powerful when used the next time because of the influence of technology. It is important for the Minister to continue having a say over that particular development so that the Minister, because he represents Government, is able to ensure that he gives guidance and is able to keep up with how things are happening.

It is in that context that we say to the Hindu community that they should not get worried and should be confident, because the Government that we have is a Government that will continue looking after their interests, and the Minister, regardless of where he is placed, is quite confident that he will be able to look after what we are doing.

We want to say to our members that we are glad, as the ANC, that members of different parties have been able to join hands during this period. It is important that we continue doing so in such a spirit because, if members continue showing it in this manner, the society of South Africa will have confidence in them.

The police - wherever they are, are the people that we deal with and whose morale we should continue to boost - are able to say that members of Parliament who sit on this particular committee are very responsible politicians and are able to look after the interests of the people they are supposed to be looking after 24 hours a day. [Time expired.] [Applause.]

Ms ANNELIZÉ VAN WYK: Mr Chairperson, hon Minister, the need for this piece of legislation is not even an issue for debate. Modern technology, globalisation, inadequate penalties for contraventions and the availability of fireworks are just some of the factors that necessitate the need for the new Bill. Aspects of international conventions that South Africa is a signatory to are also adequately addressed through this Bill.

Many recent incidents of terror throughout the world emphasise the need to deal with explosives effectively, responsibly and efficiently. On the morning of 31 October 2002 - a week ago - we received a grim reminder that South Africa is not exempt from the actions of extremists and the danger of acts of terror. It is to those responsible for the Soweto bombings that I want to address myself now. Die lafhartige daad van bomme plant moet ten sterkste veroordeel word. Ook in hierdie Huis moet elke party sonder voorwaarde hierdie dade ten sterkste veroordeel. Die VF of enige ander organisasie wat ‘n ``maar’’ agteraan so ‘n veroordeling wil haak, loop die gevaar om sinnelose geweld goed te praat. Daar is nie ‘n rede goed genoeg in die Suid-Afrika van vandag vir enige persoon of groep persone, om hul na geweld te wend nie.

Die lafhartige daad van gesiglose magsdronk individue bevorder nie enige groep se belange nie. Dit veroorsaak veel eerder ‘n onnodige vervreemding en wantroue tussen Suid-Afrikaners. [Tussenwerpsels.][Applous.]

Suid-Afrika is ‘n grondwetlike demokrasie. In hierdie Parlement is Afrikaanssprekendes verteenwoordig in bykans elke politieke party. Hier is partye in die Parlement wat eis dat hulle eksklusief die belange van Afrikaners verteenwoordig. Die demokrasie maak dit moontlik om mens se vertwyfelinge - as individu, as groep of selfs kleiner belanggegroep - behoorlik aan te spreek deur verskeie grondwetlike liggame. Geweld is nie nodig of aanvaarbaar nie - dit moet verwerp word met die minagting wat dit verdien!

Indien iemand lid is van een van daardie groepe wat op die kantlyn sit en deur sogenaamde leiers op sleeptou geneem word, versoek ek hom of haar vandag: Kyk en wees nugter. Dit is nie waar dat sy of haar groep eksklusief die belange van enige groep verteenwoordig nie. Ek is ‘n Afrikaner.

Mev M P COETZEE-KASPER: Ek is ook een!

Ms ANNELIZÉ VAN WYK: My kollega Salamudi Abram noem homself trots ‘n Boer. Daardie groepe verteenwoordig nie een van ons nie, of ander soos ons nie. Die Afrikaner is deel van Suid-Afrika, is lief vir hierdie land en vir die mense van hierdie land. Ons dra ons beskeie deel by om ‘n beter toekoms te help skep in Suid-Afrika, ook vir ons nageslag.

Die subversiewe aksies waarby sekere groepe betrokke is, bedreig die toekoms van alle Suid-Afrikaners, ook dié van hulle kinders. Wat wil hulle aan hulle en ander Afrikaners se kinders bemaak? ‘n Toekoms gebaseer op haat en geweld? En om alles te kroon, word dit kamma-kastig onder die vaandel van Christenskap gedoen. In die proses vertrap en vertroebel hulle die identiteit van miljoene Afrikaners, en die godsdiens van miljoene Suid- Afrikaners.

As hulle deel is van, of mense ken wat betrokke is, by hierdie of soortgelyke aktiwiteite ÿ.ÿ.ÿ. [Tyd verstreke.] [Applous.] (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)

[The cowardly action of planting bombs must be condemned in the strongest possible terms. Even in this House, each and every party must, without any reservations, strongly condemn these actions. The FF or any other organisation that wants to affix a ``but’’ to such a condemnation, is in danger of condoning senseless violence. There is not a good enough reason in the present South Africa for any person or group of persons to resort to violence.

The cowardly action of faceless, power drunk individuals does not promote the interests of any group. It is for more likely to cause unnecessary alienation and distrust between South Africans. [Interjections.][Applause.]

South Africa is a constitutional democracy. There are Afrikaans-speaking people represented in nearly all the political parties in this Parliament. There are parties in Parliament that insist that only represent the interests of the Afrikaner. Democracy makes it possible to address one’s doubts - be it as an individual, a group or even a smaller interest group

• properly through the different constitutional bodies. Violence is neither necessary nor acceptable - it should be rejected with the contempt it deserves!

If a person is a member of one of those groups that remain on the sidelines and they are being influenced by so-called leaders, I wish to ask him or her today: Think clearly. It is not true that his or her group exclusively represents the interests of any group. I am an Afrikaner.

Mrs M COETZEE-KASPER: So am I!

Ms ANNELIZÉ VAN WYK: My colleague Salamudi Abram proudly calls himself a Boer. Those groups do not represent any one of us, or others like us. The Afrikaner is part of South Africa, loves this land and the people of this land. We make our modest contribution to help to create a better future in South Africa, also for our descendants.

The subversive actions in which some groups are involved, threaten the future of all South Africans, also of their children. What do they want to beneath to their children and the children of other Afrikaners? A future based on hatred and violence? To top it all, this is ostensibly being done under the banner of Christianity. In the process they are trampling on and bedevilling the identity of millions of Afrikaners, as well as the religion of millions of South Africans. If they are part of, or know people who are involved in, this or similar activities [Time expired.] [Applause.]]

Adv Z L MADASA: Chairperson, the introduction of this Bill in this democratic Parliament, as ironic as it is in view of our painful past, is a necessary intervention to protect our hard-earned democracy. I believe that on issues of security, all political parties must close ranks and defend the state at all costs.

However, I would like to express a different legal opinion to that of my colleague, Adv Swart. We in the ACDP would like to draw the attention of this House to the provisions of section 23(2) of the Bill which introduces what has become known as a ``reverse onus provision’’. Although the presumption of possession in the said section is reputable, it still places a heavy burden on the accused.

Whilst the ACDP appreciates that the presumption of innocence in section 35(3)(h) of the Constitution is not an absolute right, and can be limited by section 36, there is still a real danger that an innocent person may fall foul of these provisions because the section is cast in too wide terms in some respects. A person, for example, who is not an owner of premises can still be presumed to be a possessor and has a burden in that case to tender a reasonable explanation, failing which that person may be convicted.

The Constitutional Court has ruled against the reverse onus provisions in a number of reported cases, in particular State vs Zuma and Scagell vs Attorney-General of the Western Cape. We hope that this Bill will not fall foul of the Constitution. Notwithstanding all those reservations, we firmly believe that intervention is necessary and we hope that no one will take this matter to the Constitutional Court. We support this Bill.

Mr P H K DITSHETELO: Chairperson, we live in the most challenging times, which makes it imperative for any government to take precautions insofar as security is concerned. No explosions, not even thunder, should be taken for granted. It is for this reason that we in the UCDP welcome this Bill which will control the keeping, use, manufacturing, importation and exportation, and transportation of explosives in this country. Any proliferation of explosives results in anarchy, whilst society thrives in conditions where law and order prevail.

The recent bombings vindicated the architects of this Bill. A government has to be ahead of the planners of evil. In fact, even in the Holy Scriptures, when the Lord realised that the Israelites were becoming wayward, he introduced the Ten Commandments. It is therefore not unreasonable for a government to protect life and property by coming down heavily on people who may impair, maim and kill others.

That a chief inspector and inspectors of explosives will be appointed to handle the disposal of explosives is most welcome. Our plea is that such officers should not be stationed only in metropolitan areas, as is the case with most specialised units. For the safety and security of the general populace, even the remote areas should be considered, as explosives are likely to be planted anywhere at any time. If we consider the recent incident in which a truck loaded with ammunition traversed the country from Mpumalanga only to be found deserted in Lichtenburg in the North West, we come to realise that explosives abound everywhere. The UCDP supports this Bill. [Time expired.]

Miss S RAJBALLY: Chairperson, the MF supports the Government fully in any action against any act of terrorism. Our country must not bow down to anyone who wants to destabilise the country for any purpose whatsoever.

The MF supports the Explosives Bill with the amendments that have been agreed upon by the portfolio committee. The amendments made to clause 15 of the Bill are of particular significance, as they have a bearing on the Hindu festival of Diwali.

The MF wishes to thank the chairperson of the portfolio committee for having agreed with the amendments that give the Minister the power to grant exemptions in cases such as religious, cultural and traditional occasions. I also wish to thank the hon the Minister and the Deputy Minister of Safety and Security for the understanding they have shown for the concerns of the Hindu community.

In this respect, I wish to single out the efforts and the support given to the Hindu community by the chairperson of the ANC in KwaZulu-Natal, Mr Sbu Ndebele, who acted immediately when the concerns of the Hindu community about fireworks were expressed to him by the leader of the MF, Mr Rajbansi.

Mr G B D McINTOSH: And the DA!

Miss S RAJBALLY: I wish to recommend to the Minister that he set up a consultative committee with religious, cultural and traditional authorities in order to exercise the powers that are given to him in this Bill in respect of exemptions. It is rather surprising that the DA is very silent on the fireworks issue in the Indian community. [Laughter.] The MF supports the Explosives Bill. [Interjections.]

Mr Q J KGAUWE: Chairperson, the ANC Government has a mandate to govern this country. The public has the right and the desire to be protected. The control of explosives must be tightened up.

We disapprove of the senseless killing of innocent individuals. The Government conveys its condolences to the bereaved families. Today we mourn the death of a mother, Mamatsieng Mokone, her husband was hospitalised, their children had nowhere to go to and their shack was demolished by the explosions. The deceased mother had dreams for her children and hopes for the future. That mission cannot be accomplished now.

The ANC Government is ready to go the extra mile, and protect its citizens against terrorist activities and invasions, should there be any. There are loyal members within the SA Police Service and the SA National Defence Force. Other groupings within them are disillusioned by the democratic process.

Our observation is that there are those who are engaged in clandestine activities in that they are in possession of illegal explosives. The easy availability of explosives must be associated with the theft of armaments from the SA Police Service and the SA National Defence Force armament stores.

Chapter 6 in this Bill deals with the empowerment of the police inspectors so that they perform their work diligently. New measures are entailed in this Bill, regardless of their being viewed as being frustrating. This is to send a signal to the public that whoever might be involved in any criminal activity will bear the consequences thereof.

The introduction of statutory presumptions places the onus on the accused person to prove his innocence on a balance of probability, and failing that the person may be imprisoned. In this instance, I am responding merely to my colleague by saying that if any explosives are found or discovered on someone’s premises, that person must go to jail. Regarding residential premises, if one’s family members are there and bombs are discovered, that person must be charged. If the person has children under 16 years of age, a worker and a wife who are there, they must also be charged.

If a person is driving a vehicle and explosives are found in that vehicle, we are saying that that person must be charged. If the explosives are in an aircraft, we are saying that the pilot must be charged. The crew members must be charged. In a hotel, the owner and occupants must be charged. These drastic measures will enable the police to arrest the criminals. In this instance, one is able to extract the truth and to get the culprit. If one does not apply such measures, definitely, bombs such as the one in Soweto will explode again. So we are saying, no matter how frustrating it would be, let us apply it.

According to the section 15 provision, it is stated that in order to accommodate all the concerns of different categories of people, members of the public will not be required to apply for permission to obtain fireworks during celebrations. We have made this very clear, and it is the ANC that has come up with such a proposal because we are accommodating and we are taking everybody on board.

We have gone to the extent of saying that there are people whom we have declared to be unfit to work, perform or be entrusted with explosives. We are saying that if a person has been convicted on a change of domestic violence, rape, drunkenness, drug abuse or murder, or any other act contained in this Bill, that person should not be allowed to handle explosives. Rather, he or she should be cast to the community, because once we allow that person access, he or she will go and kill people.

Whilst we have the other opposition parties expressing their unequivocal support in the condemnation of these killings, not a single voice has been raised to demand to know the root cause of these bombings and their investigation, except the UDM. It made that very clear. Let them be open and ask: What is the cause?

Too many members who were once employed took severance packages. Some resigned, some were disillusioned and some were able to gain access to these explosives. They might have them on their premises. That is why we are saying that the police should go and arrest them. That is why we are asking why we have to protect them. Let the law take its course.

We are saying that the police, with or without a search warrant, have the right to enter people’s premises. For them to go to court and get a court order will delay the process, and information or evidence might be removed. That is why we are saying that we should give them the power to enter people’s premises without a permit. [Interjections.]

We are saying if someone is found to be in possession of explosives, that person must know that he or she has contravened this Act, and that he or she can be sentenced to imprisonment for a period of 25 years. If someone is found transporting explosives without authorisation, that person might be sent to prison for a period of imprisonment of 15 years. If a person is an authorised dealer and suddenly becomes negligent or misbehaves, the inspector will be able to order the closing down of the business.

We are saying that whilst that business is closed, that person must not be allowed to operate until he or she person has lodged an appeal, and if that appeal has not been lodged or has not been finalised, that person’s business must remain closed. So, I pity my colleagues for condoning killings or this kind. [Applause.]

The MINISTER OF SAFETY AND SECURITY: Chairperson, hon members of the House, allow me first of all to pick up on an observation which was made by the hon Mnyame Booi about the unity of our portfolio committee. I appreciate the manner in which that committee works. All of them collectively are opposed to crime and, collectively, they have vowed and resolved to fight against crime. There have been a lot of concessions all round, because members of this committee, united in the fight against crime, decided that what we needed was a piece of legislation of the type that we are presenting today, in order for us to consolidate the fight against crime.

I also appreciate observations which were made, amongst others, by the hon members Paul Swart and Annelizé van Wyk, who condemned, in the strongest terms, the use of violence by people who are, in one way or the other, disgruntled. The message that these two members have sent out, including other members of course who spoke here, is that there is no reason in the new South Africa for anybody to be disgruntled to the point where they would resort to violence, because there are channels of communication. Our Constitution allows every shade of political belief and space, so that it is accommodated in the ordinary discourse as we consolidate our democracy.

It is unfortunate that, at times, our views are not always heard by our people because, too often, we speak past each other. Fortunately, in this portfolio committee, members have been speaking to each other and trying to find solutions as a collective. We buttress the hopes of our people with clear messages of peace, stability and prosperity based on our vision of freedom, democracy, equality and justice.

We do not speak often, as this collective of our people, about our unity as we create the conditions that will lead to a better life for all. We use our energy, at the best of times, in self-flagellation, in personal attacks against one another and the effort to consolidate our democracy.

The hon Ntuli standing here said that it should be understood that this Bill is not punitive both in its nature as well as in its content and intention. Based on that belief, we obtained overwhelming support from everybody in this House for this Bill. I want to assure the hon Rajbally that we do not want to create too many structures for consultation, merely because our doors are open. People should come and raise whatever difficulties they have, but they should also come and place before us recommendations and suggestions so that in the end, what we will have is a department that effectively works in our programme to defeat crime in this country.

I appreciate the fact that there have been a number of members from the opposition, as well as the ruling party, who have indeed used that opportunity to come and sit down with us, and discuss various aspects of our programme of safety and security in this country. I want to express my appreciation for the overall support that we obtained from everybody here today. [Applause.]

Debate concluded.

Bill read a second time.

CONSIDERATION OF TWENTY-SIXTH REPORT OF STANDING COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC
                         ACCOUNTS - BANKSETA

CONSIDERATION OF TWENTY-SEVENTH REPORT OF STANDING COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC ACCOUNTS - FASSETA

CONSIDERATION OF TWENTY-EIGHTH REPORT OF STANDING COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC
                       ACCOUNTS - FOODBEVSETA

CONSIDERATION OF TWENTY-NINTH REPORT OF STANDING COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC
                         ACCOUNTS - ETDPSETA

CONSIDERATION OF THIRTIETH REPORT OF STANDING COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC ACCOUNTS - FIETA

CONSIDERATION OF THIRTY-FIRST REPORT OF STANDING COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC
                         ACCOUNTS - MQASETA

CONSIDERATION OF THIRTY-SECOND REPORT OF STANDING COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC
                          ACCOUNTS - CHIETA

CONSIDERATION OF THIRTY-THIRD REPORT OF STANDING COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC
                          ACCOUNTS - SETASA

CONSIDERATION OF THIRTY-FOURTH REPORT OF STANDING COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC
                         ACCOUNTS - WARSETA

CONSIDERATION OF THIRTY-FIFTH REPORT OF STANDING COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC
                         ACCOUNTS - MERSETA

CONSIDERATION OF THIRTY-SIXTH REPORT OF STANDING COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC
                         ACCOUNTS - CTFLSETA

CONSIDERATION OF THIRTY-SEVENTH REPORT OF STANDING COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC ACCOUNTS - TETA

CONSIDERATION OF THIRTY-EIGHTH REPORT OF STANDING COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC
                         ACCOUNTS - DIDTETA

Mr V G SMITH: Mr Chairperson, hon members, the Standing Committee on Public Accounts has examined and deliberated on the 13 Sector Education and Training Authority financial reports included in the annual report tabled in Parliament, and referred to Scopa for the financial year ending 31 March 2002.

The Auditor-General has expressed an unqualified audit opinion in respect of all these financial statements, that is, the twenty-sixth to the thirty- eighth reports of Scopa, thereby indicating that he is satisfied that evidence supporting the amounts and disclosure in the financial statements, as well as assessing the accounting principles used and evaluating the overall presentation of the financial statements are a fair reflection of the financial state of affairs in the various sectors. All these sector education and training authorities reside within the ambit of the Department of Labour with the objective of providing skills development and training in the respective sectors of operation.

Of the 13 reports, in nine instances the Auditor-General has not cited any areas of weaknesses at all. In the remaining four reports, the Auditor- General has identified certain areas of concern, in the main relating to internal controls and risk management. Scopa’s recommendations to the sectors affected are that urgent corrective measures be implemented, and that the department’s accounting officer report to Parliament on the nature and timeframes of these corrective actions within 60 days.

Finally, Scopa has unanimously recommended that Parliament consider and adopt the committee’s reports as tabled. [Applause.]

The DEPUTY CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: I move that the reports be adopted.

Reports adopted.

  CONSIDERATION OF INTERIM REPORT OF AD HOC COMMITTEE ON POWERS AND
                      PRIVILEGES OF PARLIAMENT

Mr P A C HENDRICKSE: Chairperson, it has been a while since I last stood before you.

The Ad Hoc Committee on Powers and Privileges of Parliament was appointed last year to draft the Bill known as the Powers, Privileges and Immunities of Parliament and Provincial Legislatures Bill. This committee was chaired by the late Comrade Peter Mokaba, and it was certainly a privilege and an honour for me to serve on the committee with him. I have the further privilege of succeeding him as the chairperson of this committee. This report is dated 18 March, and it refers to the fifth draft of the Bill. I do not know how many members have had a chance to look at any of the drafts of the Bill, but the Bill deals, amongst others, with what the precincts are of legislatures, disciplinary action for contempt, and disciplinary procedures to be followed. It deals with privileges, immunities, independence and protection of MPs as well as the legislatures, also how we are to summons witnesses, and the responsibilities of witnesses before Parliament as well as the publication and broadcasting of the debates of Parliament.

The fifth draft was circulated to members in April this year, and all parties were asked to comment. Following a very successful meeting in the recess period after Easter, we were able to circulate the sixth draft. Since then, a number of issues have come up. We were asked to make sure that matters raised in the De Lille case were covered in the new draft as well as that the Maduna matter was properly taken care of. The Speaker subsequently asked us to ensure that there was no conflict between the Public Finance Management Act and the proposed Bill. The Chairperson of Committees asked us to look at the broadcasting policy of Parliament, and to ensure that that was accommodated. We have done all these things. We are now on the ninth draft.

This committee has 17 members serving on it, including eight chairpersons. Between them, members of this committee serve on 18 other portfolio committees, which does make it extremely difficult for us to meet during normal committee times. When we ask to meet during recess, we are constantly being told that there is no money for this. We would like Parliament to have a look at this so that we can meet at an appropriate time to finalise the Bill.

Our committee clerk gave notice of her resignation five months ago. She resigned or retired two months ago. We still have no replacement, which makes it extremely difficult for this committee to function.

We are in the process of circulating the ninth draft to all members of Parliament, and members of the House are asked to look at it, and any comments or proposals that they might have can be forwarded through party representatives on the committee. It is the intention of this committee to complete its work in the first quarter of next year. [Applause.]

The DEPUTY CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Chairperson, I move that the report be adopted.

Report adopted.

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Hon members, before I adjourn the House, I would like to remind you that the House will be sitting on Monday at 14:00.

The House adjourned at 16:50. ____

            ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS

ANNOUNCEMENTS: National Assembly and National Council of Provinces:

1. The Speaker and the Chairperson:

 (1)    The Minister for Provincial and Local Government on 7 November
     2002 submitted a draft of the Local Government: Municipal
     Structures Second Amendment Bill, 2002, as well as the memorandum
     explaining the objects of the proposed legislation, to the Speaker
     and the Chairperson in terms of Joint Rule 159. The draft has been
     referred to the Portfolio Committee on Provincial and Local
     Government and the Select Committee on Local Government and
     Administration by the Speaker and the Chairperson, respectively,
     in accordance with Joint Rule 159(2).

National Assembly:

1. The Speaker:

 (1)    Message from National Council of Provinces to National Assembly:


     Bills, subject to proposed amendments, passed by National Council
     of Provinces on 7 November 2002 and transmitted for consideration
     of Council's proposed amendments:


     (i)     Higher Education Amendment Bill [B 30B - 2002] (National
              Assembly - sec 75) (for proposed amendments, see
              Announcements, Tablings and Committee Reports, 5 November
              2002, p 1713).


              The Bill has been referred to the Portfolio Committee on
              Education of the National Assembly for a report on the
              amendments proposed by the Council.


     (ii)    Broadcasting Amendment Bill [B 34B - 2002] (National
              Assembly - sec 75) (for proposed amendments, see
              Announcements, Tablings and Committee Reports, 5 November
              2002, p 1716).


              The Bill has been referred to the Portfolio Committee on
              Communications of the National Assembly for a report on
              the amendments proposed by the Council.


 (2)    Message from National Council of Provinces to National Assembly:


     Bill, as amended, passed by National Council of Provinces on 7
     November 2002 and transmitted for consideration of Council's
     amendments:


     (i)     Administrative Adjudication of Road Traffic Offences
          Amendment Bill [B 42D - 2002] (National Assembly - sec 76).


     The amended Bill has been referred to the Portfolio Committee on
     Transport for a report and recommendations on the Council's
     amendments.

TABLINGS:

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces:

Papers:

1. The Speaker and the Chairperson:

 (a)    Report of the Auditor-General on the Lebowa Mineral Trust for
     the period 1996-1997, 1997-1998, 1998-1999 [RP 189-2002].


 (b)    Report of the Auditor-General on the Lebowa Mineral Trust for
     the period 1988-1989, 1989-1990, 1990-1991, 1991-1992, 1992-1993,
     1993-1994, 1994-1995, 1995-1996 [RP 190-2002].

COMMITTEE REPORTS:

National Assembly:

1. Report of the Portfolio Committee on Finance on the Adjustments Appropriation Bill [B 66 - 2002] (National Assembly - sec 77), dated 4 November 2002:

   The Portfolio Committee on Finance, having considered the subject of the Adjustments Appropriation Bill [B 66 - 2002] (National Assembly - sec 77), referred to it and classified by the Joint Tagging Mechanism as a money Bill, reports that it has agreed to the Bill.

   The Committee wishes to bring the following to the attention of the House:

   1. Vote 4: Home Affairs

      The Committee expressed concern that the exchange rate on which the contract was budgeted, is not in line with the current exchange rate.

   2. Vote 6: Public Works

      The Committee also expressed concern that the escalators in contracts are unaffordable. The escalation costs of the rental or lease agreements are to be revisited.

   3. Vote 32: Transport

      The Committee expressed further concern that the escalators in contracts of both bus and rail services are unaffordable.

   The Committee also wishes the Joint Budget Committee well in its future endeavours, especially in its continuous engagement with Departments in order to make a more meaningful engagement with the 2003-04 Budget and Adjustments Appropriation Bill. The Committee would like to bring to the attention of the Joint Budget Committee the imperfection of the current process in dealing with the Adjustments Appropriation Bill, particularly on the question of whether government allocations are simply unforeseeable or unforeseen.