THURSDAY, 7 NOVEMBER 2002 __

          PROCEEDINGS OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
                                ____

The Council met at 14:09.

The Deputy Chairperson took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayers or meditation.

ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS - see col 000.

         FRAUD IN WESTERN CAPE DEPARTMENT OF SOCIAL SERVICES

                         (Draft Resolution)

Dr P J C NEL: Mnr die Voorsitter, ek stel sonder kennisgewing voor:

Dat die Raad-

(1) kennis neem dat -

   (a)  'n ondersoek deur die Wes-Kaapse  Departement  van  Maatskaplike
       Dienste aan die lig gebring het dat daar grootskaalse bedrog  in
       die betrokke departement plaasvind;


   (b)  die bedrog wat gepleeg  word,  onder  andere  selfverryking  van
       amptenare  deur  die  vervalsing  van  mediese  verslae,   valse
       verklarings  oor  inkomste  en  sameswering   tussen   amptenare
       insluit, en dat sindikate  waarskynlik  ook  by  die  bedrogspul
       betrokke is;


   (c)  die Nuwe NP hierdie veragtelike dade  teen  pensioentrekkers  en
       weerlose kinders ten sterkste afkeur; en

(2) die premier van die Wes-Kaap en sy Minister van Maatskaplike Dienste en Armoedeverligting gelukwens met hul vinnige en effektiewe optrede teen hierdie korrupsie en bedrog en hulle versoek om geen genade aan die skuldiges te betoon nie. (Translation of Afrikaans draft resolution follows.)

[Dr P J C NEL: Mr Chairperson, I move without notice:

That the Council -

(1) notes that -

   (a)  an investigation  by  the  Western  Cape  Department  of  Social
       Services has revealed that large-scale fraud is taking place  in
       the department concerned;


   (b)  the fraud being committed includes, inter alia,  self-enrichment
       of  officials  by  falsification  of  medical   reports,   false
       statements on income and conspiracy among  officials,  and  that
       syndicates may probably also be involved in this fraud;


   (c)  the New NP strongly condemns these  despicable  deeds  committed
       against pensioners and vulnerable children; and

(2) congratulates the Premier of the Western Cape and his Minister of Social Services and Poverty Alleviation on their speedy and effective action against corruption and fraud and requests them to show the guilty parties no mercy.]

Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.

              STORM IN LOWER ORANGE AREA, NORTHERN CAPE

                         (Draft Resolution)

Mnr J HORNE: Mnr die Voorsitter, ek stel sonder kennisgewing voor:

Dat die Raad-

(1) sy besorgdheid uitspreek oor die natuurramp wat die landbougemeenskap in die Benede Oranje-gebied in die Noord-Kaap getref het toe miljoene rande se skade veroorsaak is deur ‘n reën- en haelstorm; en

(2) die hele landbougemeenskap sterkte toewens en vra dat die betrokke nasionale departement saam met die Noord-Kaapse departemente sal besin om die landbougemeenskap te ondersteun, waar nodig. (Translation of Afrikaans draft resolution follows.)

[Mr J HORNE: Mr Chairperson, I move without notice:

That the Council -

(1) expresses its concern about the natural disaster which struck the agricultural community in the Lower Orange area in the Northern Cape when damage amounting to millions of rands was caused by a rain and hail storm; and (2) wishes the entire agricultural community everything of the best and asks that the relevant national department, together with the Northern Cape departments, will consider supporting the agricultural community, where necessary.]

Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.

               AFRIKAANS LANGUAGE IN HIGHER EDUCATION

                         (Draft Resolution)

Mnr A E VAN NIEKERK: Mnr die Voorsitter, ek stel sonder kennisgewing voor:

Dat die Raad-

(1) met waardering kennis neem dat die taalbeleid vir hoër onderwys steeds aan Afrikaans ruimte bied om as akademiese en onderrigtaal te bly funksioneer terwyl ander inheemse tale ook ontwikkel gaan word as akademiese tale; (2) egter van mening is dat, soos voorgestel deur die Gerwel-komitee, minstens die Wes-Kaap geregtig is op een Afrikaanse universiteit omdat Afrikaans hier die dominante taal is;

(3) van mening is dat sodanige universiteite nie in botsing sal wees met die transformasieproses nie aangesien die nasionale Minister van Onderwys self ‘n universiteit of technikon met ‘n Afrikataal as basis in die vooruitsig gestel het;

(4) ‘n beroep doen op die histories Afrikaanse universiteite om binne die raamwerk van die neergelegde beleid Afrikaans se posisie as onderrigtaal te verseker sonder om nie-Afrikaanssprekende studente uit te sluit; en

(5) voorts ‘n beroep doen op inrigtings vir hoër onderwys om alle inheemse tale met betrekking tot hoër onderwys te ontwikkel. (Translation of Afrikaans draft resolution follows.)

[Mr A E VAN NIEKERK: Mr Chairperson, I move without notice:

That the Council -

(1) notes with appreciation that the language policy for higher education still offers Afrikaans room to remain functioning as an academic language and a language of instruction while other indigenous languages are also going to be developed as academic languages;

(2) is of the opinion, however, that, as was proposed by the Gerwel Committee, the Western Cape at least is entitled to one Afrikaans university because Afrikaans is the dominant language here;

(3) is of the opinion that such universities will not clash with the transformation process, as the national Minister of Education himself envisages an African-language-based university or technikon; (4) appeals to the historically Afrikaans universities to ensure the position of Afrikaans as a language of instruction within the framework of the stipulated policy, without excluding non-Afrikaans- speaking students; and

(5) further appeals to institutions for higher education to develop all indigenous languages with regard to higher education.]

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE COUNCIL: Mr Chairperson, I move as an amendment:

That paragraph (2) be substituted by the following paragraph:

(2) is of the opinion, however, that the Minister, after consultation, must determine an appropriate place for at least one Afrikaans university in an area where Afrikaans is a dominant language.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON: With that amended, is there any objection? Mr Van Niekerk, I hope you will accept the amendment?

Mr A E VAN NIEKERK: Chairperson, I am easy with the amendment, except that I used the word ``minstens’’, [at least], which generalised my statement, but I am happy with the amendment.

Amendment agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.

Motion, as amended, agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution, namely:

That the Council-

(1) notes with appreciation that the language policy for higher education still offers Afrikaans room to remain functioning as an academic language and a language of instruction while other indigenous languages are also going to be developed as academic languages; (2) is of the opinion, however, that the Minister, after consultation, must determine an appropriate place for at least one Afrikaans university in an area where Afrikaans is a dominant language;

(3) is of the opinion that such universities will not clash with the transformation process, as the national Minister of Education himself envisages an African-language-based university or technikon;

(4) appeals to the historically Afrikaans universities to ensure the position of Afrikaans as a language of instruction within the framework of the stipulated policy, without excluding non-Afrikaans- speaking students; and

(5) further appeals to institutions for higher education to develop all indigenous languages with regard to higher education.

     CONDEMNATION OF POLITICISATION OF FAMINE RELIEF IN ZIMBABWE

                         (Draft Resolution)

Mr K D S DURR: Mr Chairperson, I move without notice:

That the Council-

(1) notes-

   (a)  the growing crisis regarding the supply of food to those in need
       in Zimbabwe, and that ZANU-PF and President Mugabe are using the
       distribution of food for political reasons;


   (b)  that the US government  has  accused  Zimbabwe  of  politicising
       famine relief and  is  working  with  other  donor  nations  and
       international food agencies in order to establish more efficient
       strategies that will ensure that food reaches those who need  it
       most; and


   (c)  that Zimbabwe has in turn accused the latest approach  from  the
       US as a ridiculous pretext to invade the country later;

(2) wishes to state that in respect of famine relief in Zimbabwe, it is a moral right of donors to give and of all starving Zimbabweans to receive access to food, and that politicising the food distribution process is unacceptable, if not criminal;

(3) supports all efforts by the US and other world agencies to establish more efficient strategies that will ensure equal access to food for everyone in need in Zimbabwe;

(4) requests the Government to commit South Africa, as a food-supplying donor in the region, to any new initiatives that will help to provide a more equitable and fairer approach to food distribution that is free of any political interference in that country.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr M J MAHLANGU): Order! Is there any objection to the motion? There is an objection. In the light of the objection, the motion may not be proceeded with. The motion without notice will now become a notice of motion.

Mr K D S DURR: Mr Chairperson, on a point of order: Can we record the names of the members who objected to the motion without notice? [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Well, I hope the hon member is seeing the members who have objected.

Mr K D S DURR: Mr Chairperson, I can see they are ashamed of having their names in the Hansard, thank you.

        LACK OF SECURITY ON CAMPUS OF UNIVERSITY OF THE NORTH
                         (Draft Resolution)

Mrs J N VILAKAZI: Mr Chairperson, I move without notice:

That the Council-

(1) notes that students at the University of the North outside Polokwane are up in arms over the lack of security on campus;

(2) further notes that this follows a spate of rapes and attempted rapes at the institution recently;

(3) believes that at least five cases of rape and seven of attempted rape had been reported in the past two months with no arrest; and

(4) therefore urges the Department of Education and the campus management to take the necessary steps to intervene in this crisis.

Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.

                    EDUCATION LAWS AMENDMENT BILL

            (Consideration of Bill and of Report thereon)

The MINISTER OF EDUCATION: Mr Chairperson, I have pleasure in introducing the Education Laws Amendment Bill to this House, which seeks to amend five other pieces of legislation. I do not normally choose to speak directly to the many features of the legislation; I leave that to other members of the House but, in this case, there has been a lot of disinformation and propaganda about its contents, which I need to address.

Much of this clamour and noise has been poorly informed and overtly political and partisan. Therefore, this must be dismissed. On the other hand, I must appreciate the quieter but very constructive suggestions made to me by many responsible organisations, which have helped us to bring before this Council a Bill which is widely supported by the education sector, despite what some may say about it.

Some of the changes are minor. It is a technical amendment to the General and Further Education and Training Quality Assurance Act. I do not intend to deal with these. Others are refinements to the workings of the education system, based on the unfolding of our constitutional mandate, and the realities of our schools. I draw the attention of this Council to what is actually happening on the ground.

The most important features of the legislation are as follows: an induction and admission age for entry into public and independent schools as from January 2004; secondly, provisions to establish a national curriculum and a system of assessment in general, further and adult basic education also in public and independent schools; thirdly, to provide for the appointment of intermediaries to assist learners in the case of sensitive disciplinary hearings - I think this is a first in Africa, if not the world - fourthly, to prohibit harmful initiation practices in schools and further education and training institutions; fifthly, to determine a code of conduct for members of school governing bodies; sixthly, to insist that the school budget processes are made more transparent and accessible; seventhly, to amend the procedure by which new teachers and those who are returning to service are appointed; next, the determination of performance standards for teachers and finally, procedures for the registration of private further education and training institutions.

This Bill has been through an extensive consultation process, including public hearings by the Portfolio Committee on Education and strong consultation with the provinces. I am pleased to say that many of the comments were very positive. Where differences did emerge, they were largely about the approach rather than the purpose of the Bill. Very few constituencies, and certainly no major ones, contested the aims of the Bill, and those that did tended to be driven by conservative religious perspectives, by groupings that have not yet subscribed to the values of our nonsectarian constitutional state. I am therefore confident of widespread support in this House.

I will deal with the issues that received the most comment. First, let me explain that our need to introduce legislation on the age of admission and other matters was driven by a recent Constitutional Court judgment, which found - on a technicality - that Government policy cannot bind third parties such as independent schools. It could only bind state schools. We have, therefore, provided in law that, as from 2004, children may be admitted to Grade 1 provided they will turn six by 30 June - this is a six- month reduction from the present rule - and this will apply across the board. So, from next year, children who are six and will be turning seven will be admitted that way.

We have allowed also for underage admission in extraordinary circumstances. This is constrained to ensure that this is done in a manner that does not discriminate, in other words, where the special needs of the children have to be met or the children’s own progress takes place. Until equitable instruments for granting exemptions are determined, there will be no exemptions to the norm.

The determination of the national curriculum for general and further education, and its application for public and independent schools, is both necessary and reasonable. We have developed, through a broad-ranging and lengthy process, a proudly South African national curriculum. No curriculum is not based on national needs and aspirations throughout the world. There is no curriculum that is extraneous to the national needs of a country. There is, in other words, no curriculum that is entirely antiseptic if not neutral. We must therefore expect all our children to follow this in pursuit of the agreed goal for a single nation. It is a proudly South African national curriculum. We have emphasised at all times that this curriculum statement comprises only minimum outcomes and standards.

The most vocal people are the ones who say that they do not want any development that will change matters. We are not prescribing, compared to the highly authoritarian and rigid curriculum that we inherited from the apartheid state which laid down in its details - I say this as a former schoolteacher - what was to be taught, how it was to be taught, and what was to be examined. A teacher became either a propogandist or a cipher, depending on which particular part of South Africa and which particular ethnic group one is talking about. One was either a cipher or a propogandist.

So, we have emphasised all the time that the curriculum statement maintains only minimum outcomes and standards, and we are therefore in no way prescribing to schools or teachers. I hope members of the Council will change their speeches, if their thinking is like that displayed in the sensational article by a very forgettable DP member from Gauteng who says that this is a process of indoctrination. [Interjections.] We have learned our lessons. [Interjections.] Those who say yes must either listen or read what is in the Bill itself.

We are not telling teachers how to teach either. That is totally contradictory to outcomes-based education, because the process is a very collective process. I shall say this for the first time - I say this in the presence of Mr Gaum, the MEC for Education in the Western Cape, who has been very helpful in this. We must also, through this process, find out who are the really bright children. We must emphasise that, because in the present process of learning by heart and learning by rote, the really bright children are not identified. The really bright children are not those who get 99% in mathematics, which is largely regurgitation without understanding. We are going to set out now to find out, in all our schools, who the really bright children are. That will come out through the very organised, collective method of learning and teaching through outcomes- based education to draw - as the preamble to our Constitution says - on the talents and capacities of all our people. As professionals, teachers will develop the learning programmes. They will develop them where children will follow in order to achieve the prescribed outcomes. On the other hand, there must be a framework. After all, if no framework is laid down, there might be anarchy. Exactly what do our children achieve? That is why, with the co-operation of the Council of Education Ministers, we are saying that unlike what happened with the introduction of outcomes- based education, there must be assessment in Grades 3, 6, 9 and 12. It will start earlier but assessments were wrong. That is why, through the assessments, we will be able to work out whether our children are literate and numerate by the end of Grade 3. It has been particularly recognised in advanced democratic countries that, in Western European countries, there are children who cannot read and write at the age of 12. We do not want that to happen. That is why there will be an assessment system. This applies, therefore, to the assessment of learner achievement.

Our simple wish is to have a national framework for assessment, a framework which will allow us to publish a national set of results, confident in the knowledge that these are based on common processes and equivalent standards throughout South Africa. This will not stifle innovation in regard to assessment procedures, and is certainly no threat to the future of legitimate assessment bodies, which have worked closely with us to support and develop the assessment of the national curriculum.

I just received, last week, the report of this investigation into assessment bodies, and in the new year I hope we will have a debate in this Council on assessment in education. At the same time, we cannot allow the existence of international agencies which offer pupils a qualification based on a foreign syllabus, whose dubious value only becomes apparent once it is tested in the job place or with a higher education institution. We must protect against this form of exploitation. I want to make it quite clear that we are not prescribing what is to be taught, particularly in the context of the new National Curriculum Statement for Grades R to 9.

Secondly, the need to review the process for the appointment of new teachers and those returning after a break has been necessary for some time. This is even more urgent now in the context of HIV/Aids. We currently have a very cumbersome and lengthy process for the appointment of teachers. I get innumerable letters from young people who recently graduated and finished their courses saying that they cannot get jobs. They are able and enthusiastic. There are white teachers who want to work in townships who are not able to get placements. This cumbersome system is not in the interest of either the schools or the applicants.

Many schools, particularly those in the rural areas and townships, fail to attract suitably qualified candidates for advertised jobs, leaving them with large numbers of unfilled vacancies. At the same time, students are required to complete numerous applications, send them to schools which they do not know, and possibly attend a series of interviews, which can be rather intimidating. This procedure does nobody any favours, and advances the rapid deployment of teachers, as required in the face of possible teacher shortages.

In addition, and this is a serious matter, we do have serious problems of racial representativity in school staffrooms. We are talking about 12 years since the process began in 1990. All of us agree that it must be addressed. However, members will notice that we have not fixed quotas for schools under the equity legislation, because a school cannot be the basis for that. So, after five years, school governing bodies have failed to make use of their extensive powers to promote the necessary changes to recruit people from outside the narrow cultural and racial bounds of the school. This phenomenon is not limited to former model-C schools. It is also a feature of our township schools who tend to be resentful of what they see as outsiders getting their jobs.

This form of xenophobia is not conducive to our efforts to build a united and diverse nation celebrating our diversity. Therefore, we need to intervene by making some appointments to schools. Let us be quite clear about this. The provisions do not limit the powers of governing bodies in any way. Those who wish to use the existing procedures in recruiting teachers are free to do so. Applicants, including first-time applicants, are free to apply directly to schools for jobs.

Where these processes are effective, they can continue. If they are not effective, then what follows is the alternative route that we have proposed for those schools and applicants who are not well-served by the current approach. The new system provides for one application to the relevant provincial department of education, which will match applications to vacancies, and the vacancies will be determined by the governing bodies and their specifications and needs will be identified by the governing bodies. Then the department will make offers to suitably qualified applicants.

By the way, I should not really have to say so, but given the state of the opposition and its far-fetched allegations, including the former MEC for education in the Western Cape, who wrote an extraordinary article in the Star last week, I must state categorically that no teacher will be deployed against his or her will to a school. It will not happen to any teacher. Applicants will be offered a job at a particular school, which they are free to accept or decline, as with any other job. We cannot employ people and then decide where they will work. That is what happened to me as a schoolteacher in KwaZulu-Natal where one was sent to a school that was determined by those extraordinary experts in Pietermaritzburg at that time. I was sent to a school to teach, regardless of my own needs and requirements. That hon member should not shake his head. That was the practice then. I am talking about a long time ago, before that member was born. I can understand that before the member was born, the world was not aware of any facts then.

We cannot employ people against their will. I am sure many members here will be glad if their jobs were near their homes. My first job was not near my home. [Interjections.] That hon member should please not be ludicrous. One sees these loud guffaws. They pass as wit and imagination. I do not mind the lack of decorum. It is the lack of imagination that I object to. One has to want to work near one’s home and serve the institution that one really believes in. Only in cases where the province has invested bursary money in the training of a teacher might there be limitation of the powers of governing bodies. This is because, increasingly, provinces - I see in the newspapers today that Adv Gaum has said that they are going to offer bursaries to teachers - give bursaries. It is only when bursaries are given that the powers will be limited. It is quite right. Gauteng, for example, is giving bursaries for people who want to take up mathematics and science. There is a great lack in all our schools. Even in these cases, the department will be required to consult with the governing body in regard to the requirements of the posts before making any appointment.

So, this provision will only apply to a limited category of teachers, and should not be seen as a threat to the functions of school governing bodies. We cannot spend public money on training teachers and then find that they are not being appointed by governing bodies in schools where they are most needed.

I come to the third point. The development of performance standards for teachers rises from the incapacity code which this Council approved two years ago. At the time, I was keen to prescribe these standards for incapacity where a teacher was not able to perform his or her work. I was persuaded that these should be collectively negotiated with the unions. This was the capacity standards that were left out. I agreed to allow for a 12-month period for this to happen, after which I indicated that I would return to Parliament if no agreement had been reached. It is now two years since then, and no agreement has been reached.

I intend, therefore, to now determine these standards of incompetence in teachers. No one can tolerate a situation where teachers who are incapable of doing their job are allowed to continue teaching. That is why I am laying a lot of emphasis on higher education and the quality of teaching. What our children are getting should be the best, and not, in fact, the 15% only who are able to pass the examinations because they revise effectively for a number of reasons.

Then there is the banning of harmful initiation practices, which may be separated from the provision of positive orientation programmes in our institutions. We have therefore provided a very clear definition, and there should be no confusion about the matter as to the distinction between orientation programmes and initiation ceremonies. Harmful initiation endangers the mental and physical health of the learner, and undermines the intrinsic worth of individuals. This is particularly important since our schools are now getting increasingly integrated. There are oppositions of a cultural nature to some of the initiation ceremonies, and hon members have to look at some of the initiation ceremonies, as I have done, to realise the bizarre nature, which undoubtedly harms our pupils.

When any such initiation occurs, teachers may be charged under the Employment of Educators Act. Other participants may have civil actions brought against them. Let there be no doubt about how we feel in regard to practices which strip the dignity and humanity of our children in the name of alleged tradition which, invariably, is five or six years old.

Finally, I come to the registration of private providers of further education and training. Providers are those backstreet people who say they will give certificates and diplomas which are not registered, and where employment cannot take place. This registration is urgently required. We have seen a dramatic increase in the number of private institutions. There are hundreds and hundreds of them which often charge exorbitant fees, and often provide very poor quality tuition. The Ministry of Education, therefore, has the responsibility to regulate this sector.

Once again, we are meeting a social evil. We are trying to cure a mischief. The opponents of this say that we are trying to centralise matters. What they do not care about is that the unregulated private further education and training sector affects the large majority of young black people and the poorest of the poor are often paying up to R12 000 a year for a certificate which is totally meaningless. It is the state’s duty to play the role of a nanny - a good nanny, not one who pinches the child who then cries in front of the mother, and then the nanny takes over the role of the mother. We have a responsibility for minimum standards. The market has not regulated itself. This is a myth. The market cannot regulate itself. That is the important thing. We cannot allow the market to exploit gullible or desperate parents and desperate students, many of whom, as I have said, make huge sacrifices to further their studies in these money-making institutions. They are not really educational institutions.

Separating the sheep from the goats will therefore ensure that these institutions make an educational contribution. We are also introducing some necessary amendments to our legislation, built on our growing experience of running the schools. They will be part of the continuing improvement. I am very pleased to say that the dysfunctional schools that I saw in 1999 have been replaced by a new spirit and a new approach.

I have also announced here today - there is no reason why the NCOP cannot get a scoop - that I am undertaking a comprehensive review of school governance and school governing bodies, an honest assessment of what it is that they are doing or not doing, where it is working and where it is not working, and where and why. I have been presented with too much evidence - nearly all anecdotal, I must say - of weak and inappropriate school governance, of language policies that do not meet the needs of the community, of governing bodies that are more concerned with running the schools rather than assisting with the administration of the schools. We must find out what the exact factual position is.

I hope members of this Council will, therefore, take into account the need to make submissions of their own, however anecdotal they may be, however limited they may be and write directly to me. We are setting up a very good small body with a reference group which will be larger. I will look at this in terms of the propriety of including members of this Council and members from the other House, if it is possible, to form part of a larger reference group.

We cannot afford weak links, particularly since after 2004 the school nutrition and feeding scheme will be transferred to schools and to the Department of Education. The school governing body and the mammas around the school governing body will organise the school feeding scheme.

There are those who have set themselves up as the supposed defenders of school governing bodies. I would like to say that the ANC introduced the school governing bodies with the most far-reaching powers. I have looked at about 35 or 40 examples of national legislation in other parts of the world. There is no other country that has conferred so much power and authority to the school governing bodies. We must try to find out how it is working. My purpose is not to weaken the school governing bodies. My purpose is to see whether they are functioning in the way that we want them to.

I would like to say that I look forward to submissions on the matter. We may hold public hearings outside the portfolio committee and the standing committee so we can get it to the people - particularly since public hearings held under the auspices of the NCOP and that of the National Assembly draw the usual crowd that give public submissions. It tends to be the usual group of people, the usual advocates, and those who have the capacity to get lawyers to draft their submissions. I think, in this kind of thing, we must take it right out to the countryside, and take it to where the people are, who are not necessarily able to write their submissions, but whose contributions are as valid, in my view, as anybody else’s. [Applause.]

Mr D M KGWARE: Chairperson, hon Minister, hon members, hon delegates from the provinces, maybe before one says anything, it would be good to thank the committee members, particularly for their role during the processing of the Bills. I also want to extend a word of thanks to the provinces for the way that they dealt with the Bill before us. We also went for public hearings to the provinces and I think we did so in real style.

Our ANC-led Government has introduced a comprehensive policy aimed at providing young South Africans with equal and quality education opportunities and preparing them for the social and economic challenges facing the country. Despite enormous backlogs, we have passed various pieces of anti-poverty legislation to effect change and improvement in previously disadvantaged areas and to bring about a better life for all our learners in our schools.

The Bill before us today is a product of our commitment to further dismantling the remaining vestiges of the past. It has been endorsed by the Council of Education Ministers, of which our MECs are members, and therefore has the full approval of the provinces. It is merely a revision of existing legislation. The Education Laws Amendment Bill seeks to amend five pieces of legislation, of which some are minor technical amendments. The outstanding amendments - perhaps one of two - are designed to close loopholes in the governing framework and was necessitated when the Constitutional Court ruled on the Talya Harris case. This case centred on the admission age at which a child should start Grade 1 in a private school. In our endeavours to respect and uphold the Constitution, we seek to do what the court suggested we should do, that is, to ensure that national policy is expressed in legislation. Hence we have this amendment to the South African Schools Act, which will harmonise the admission age to Grade 1 in both public and private schools. The admission age is thus lowered by six months. The amendment removes undue pressure from the provinces and in this respect we are guided by section 28(2) of the Constitution, which reads:

A child’s best interests are of paramount importance in every matter concerning the child.

The Bill also empowers the Minister to determine a national curriculum and assessment of learners’ achievements to determine minimum standards and outcomes, as required by the Constitution. Already we have seen how overtly DA-sympathetic heads have given sinister interpretations on this. However, we in the ANC are of one mind, that curriculum policy is an important instrument to ensure that the constitutional responsibility of independent schools to provide education better than or equivalent to that of public schools is taken care of.

All schools should follow a national curriculum. We believe that various agencies, including departments and accredited independent bodies, have a role to play in learner assessment, but this must be exercised within a co- ordinated framework. This will enable us to compare results internally and for our results to be internationally benchmarked.

The rest of the amendments are in line with existing policy and we fully support them. It is our view that the national Education Laws Amendment Bill starts to answer the question President Mbeki posed to the nation nine months ago, namely -

… whether what we are doing as the legislature, the executive and the judiciary, as well as the fourth estate, is helping to lift from the shoulders of our people the intolerable burden of poverty and underdevelopment.

We are saying the Bill starts to answer this question, because even though we are making purposeful strides, we are mindful that there are indeed low areas of performance and needs which are forever competing for our attention.

The Bill will ensure that Government and we can make proper intervention, where necessary, with regard to transformation, equity, allocation of human and financial resources, and improvement in the quality of teaching.

In conclusion, criticism of the Bill was to be expected in the context of the morally indefensible policy of the past, of which the evidence is still all around us. The criticism is consistent with this country’s history and the present situation of so few with so much, depriving so many with so little.

We support this Bill that should be endorsed by this House. [Applause.]

Mnr F ADAMS: Agb Voorsitter, Ministers en lede van die Huis, daar is heelparty bepalings in die wetgewing waarmee die Nuwe NP geen probleem het nie en wat ons ten volle kan steun.

Ons is egter veral besorgd oor klousule 10, wat in werklikheid die magte van bestuursliggame erodeer. Hoewel ons begrip het vir die feit dat daar ‘n gelyke verspreiding van gekwalifiseerde onderwysers oor die land heen moet wees en dat nuwe onderwysers so gou moontlik aangestel moet word, is die wyse waarop hierdie wetsontwerp die doelwit probeer bereik, verkeerd. Aansporing vir onderwysers om op die platteland onderwys te gee, sou byvoorbeeld ‘n baie beter opsie gewees het.

In die saak tussen die beheerraad van die Settlers Hoër Landbouskool en die hoof van die Departement van Onderwys van die Limpopo provinsie, waar die departement opdrag gegee is om die genomineerde van die beheerraad weer aan te stel, het regter Bertelsmann ‘n baie belangrike beginsel daargestel. Hy het gesê, en ek haal aan:

Hoe belangrik die regte van opvoeders ook al is, en in besonder diegene wat aan voorheen benadeelde gemeenskappe behoort, moet die oorwig van kinders se regte en belange nie misgekyk word nie.

Elke stukkie wetgewing oor onderwys behoort gelei te word deur wat regter Bertelsmann na verwys het as die ``oorwig van kinders se regte’’. Gemeet teen hierdie beginselriglyn het die inhoud van klousule 10 tekortgeskiet.

‘n Verdere logiese afleiding van sy uitspraak is dat ‘n skool se beheerliggaam by uitstek geskik is om te besluit wat in die beste belang van die kind is. Ek wil dan ook net byvoeg dat ekself op die beheerliggaam van ‘n skool dien.

Lyfstraf word onder andere deur klousules 15 en 28 verbied. Ek vra nie dat lyfstraf weer ingestel moet word nie. Al wat ek weet, is dat ‘n gebrek aan dissipline dit feitlik vir onderwysers onmoontlik maak om hulle dagtaak na behore te vervul.

Volgens prof Izak Oosthuizen van die Potchefstroomse Universiteit, wat ‘n omvattende studie in dié verband gedoen het, is dissipline in skole besig om landwyd ineen te stort. Volgens hom is die leemte wat gelaat is deur die verbod op lyfstraf nog nie na behore deur alternatiewe dissiplinêre maatreëls gevul nie.

Miskien is daar redes hiervoor. [O]f onderwysers is nie behoorlik ingelig oor alternatiewe strafmaatreëls, soos uiteengesit in ‘n handleiding van die departement nie, óf die alternatiewe maatreëls help nie.

Ek stem nie saam met die gevolgtrekking in die handleiding dat lyfstraf lei tot groeiende sosiale geweld nie. Hulle het my op skool amper doodgeslaan en ek kan nie onthou dat ek al ooit skuldig was aan sosiale geweld nie. [Tussenwerpsels.]

Miskien moet die Minister ondersoek instel oor die ineenstorting van dissipline op skoolvlak en die suksesvolle implementering al dan nie van ‘n handleiding oor alternatiewe strafmaatreëls.

Respek is een van die waardes wat in die hersiene kurrikulum beklemtoon word. Miskien moet dit juis gekwalifiseer word as respek vir gesag wat op die ou end kan help dat dissipline op skoolvlak herstel word.

Ter afsluiting, as party steun die Nuwe NP nie die wetsontwerp nie. (Translation of Afrikaans speech follows.)

[Mr F ADAMS: Hon Chairperson, Ministers and members of the House, there are several provisions in this piece of Legislation with which the New NP has no problem, and that we can totally support.

However, we are very concerned about clause 10, that in reality erodes the powers of governing bodies. Even though we have an understanding for the fact that there should be an equal distribution of qualified teachers throughout the country and that new teachers should be appointed as soon as possible, the manner in which this Bill attempts to achieve this objective is wrong. Incentives for teachers to teach in rural areas, for example, would have been a better option.

In the case between the governing body of the Settlers Higher Agricultural School and the principal from the Department of Education of the Limpopo province, where the department was instructed to reappoint the nominated person from the governing body, Judge Bertelsmann set a very important principle. He said, and I quote:

No matter how important the rights of educators are, and in particular those from previously disadvantaged communities, the import of the rights of children and their interests should not be overlooked.

Every piece of legislation about education should be guided by what Judge Bertelsmann referred to as the ``import of the rights of children’’. Measured against this principled guideline the content of clause 10 is inadequate.

A further logical conclusion of his judgment is that the school’s governing body is pre-eminently qualified to decide what is in the best interest of the child. I would also then like to add that I too serve on the governing body of a school.

Corporal punishment, inter alia, is prohibited by clauses 15 and 28. I do not ask that corporal punishment be reinstituted. All I know is that a lack of discipline makes it practically impossible for teachers to fulfil their daily task as they should.

According to Prof Izak Oosthuizen from the Potchefstroom University, who conducted a thorough study in this regard, discipline in schools is beginning to collapse throughout the country. According to him the void that has been left by the prohibition on corporal punishment has not been adequately filled by alternative disciplinary measures.

Perhaps there are reasons for this. Either teachers are not properly informed of alternative punitive measures, as outlined in the guide of the department, or the alternative measures do not help.

I do not agree with the conclusion in the handbook that corporal punishment will lead to increased social violence. They practically beat me to death at school and I cannot remember that I have ever been guilty of social violence. [Interjections.]

Perhaps the Minister should investigate the collapse of discipline at school level and the successful implementation, or not, of a guide on alternative punitive measures.

Respect is one of the values that must be emphasised in the reviewed curriculum. Perhaps it should be specifically qualified that it is respect for authority that might in the end contribute to restoring discipline at school level.

In conclusion, the New NP as a party does not support this Bill.]

Ms L N JAJULA: Mr Chairman, hon members, ladies and gentlemen, the Eastern Cape rises to commend the hon the Minister for coming up with such an amendment and specifically for taking the process of education transformation forward in South Africa.

Basically, it is based on an ANC policy crafted in the Kliptown gathering which took place in 1955 to transform education in South Africa. This formed the basic document just before the national election in 1994. It is very important for each one of us to realise that education is the cornerstone of life. Furthermore, it is the right of everyone to be educated. We appreciate the response and the lowering of the age for admission of children specifically. The vast majority of children cannot be barred from entering school at an early age.

The present curriculum is one that provides and facilitates learner-centred education, instead of an education that is actually teacher-centred. The outcomes-based education programme will cause most students to be more assertive and realise their talents. They will then prosper in better careers during their lives.

The Eastern Cape believes that the amendment which looks at the present school governing bodies is quite relevant. But I think we need to fast- track the training of school governing bodies. We call upon the Association of School Governing Bodies to fast-track this process in order to ensure that the friction and conflict between administration and management, owing to less-informed school governing bodies, will come to an end.

The role of a school governing body is very important. It forms a bond between the school and the educators, and between the school and the family. We believe that education belongs to all social institutions, not only the school.

The prohibition of corporal punishment is well reflected in this amending Bill, but it is a matter of concern that it is still implemented in most schools. This has to come to an end. The people are ignoring the law, and the implementation of this irregular and improper activity in the life of any person is actually dehumanising to that particular person and has a negative physical, emotional and spiritual impact, which has a negative effect on the education system itself. This has to come to an end.

We believe that if clear guidelines and monitoring mechanisms are put in place to expose the people who are continuing with these activities, we will be able to achieve better concentration for those in the education system.

In conclusion, we believe that it is time for each South African to realise that education is a broad concern. It does not rest in the classrooms only, but rests with each one of us. In order for education to succeed, each social institution has to make sure that it has a programme which facilitates and assists the education system at home, in church and everywhere. In that way we will be able to achieve better results. The results we are talking about, which will be out on 26 December, are not the product of only one person. It should be the product of every person in South Africa.

It is not the teacher’s role to make sure that the child behaves. Children need to behave everywhere. They need to have respect for the environment and education. The parents themselves, the relatives, friends and guardians should see to it that the child respects society first, in order to concentrate in class. We have to realise that education cannot succeed unless each one of us takes a positive stand, to say that we will contribute on a daily basis to transforming what is a lost generation in South Africa. In this way we will restore the fibre and dignity of our society. [Applause.]

Mnu H T SOGONI: Sihlalo, Mphathiswa namalungu abekekileyo, ndithi mandivakalise inkxaso ye-UDM kulo Mthetho uqulethe intlaninge yezihlomelo kwizigaba ezithile kwimithetho yezemfundo eyahluka-hlukeneyo. Sihlalo, linyathelo elincomekayo nelisifudusela phambili ukuqingqwa kweminyaka yokwamkelwa komfundi osaqalayo esikolweni ngohlobo lokuba umzali abe nokuzikhethela ixesha lokungena komntwana esikolweni nangona kuxhomekeke ekubeni ukulungele kangakanani na phofu ukuqalisa isikolo.

Noxa sisiphumeza esi sihlomelo, sikwathabathele ingqalelo isiphakamiso se- SADTU neNational Association of Governing Bodies esibongoza ukuba esi sihlomelo sixhaswe zizixhobo zokufunda ezaneleyo kuwo onke amabanga andulela ibanga lokuqala uGrade R ukuze kuxhamle uwonke-wonke, ungavuzi kuphela abantwana abambalwa bezinhanha, abanazo iimpiko zokufudusela abantwana bazo kuloo maziko anazo zonke izinto. I-UDM iyasixhasa kananjalo isihlomelelo sokuba umzali womfundi abekho buqu okanye amelwe ngulowo amtyumbileyo ngexesha loluleko-similo kumfundi. Ibubulumko nophawu lobulungisa kananjalo Sihlalo, ukuba umfundi oneminyaka engaphantsi kwelishumi elinesibhozo ancediswe ngumntu ofanelekileyo, mhlawumbi ngamava nolwazi, xa sukuba umfundi lowo enika ubungqina kwimicimbi yoluleko. Kambe noxa kunjalo ndinoluvo oluqinileyo oluthi, le nyhweba isaza kuxhanyulwa ngabambalwa kuphela.

Kumava endinawo, amaqumrhu olawulo-zikolo phaya kwiindawo zabantsundu, ingakumbi ezilalini, akanayo esandleni le mithetho siyiqulunqa apha. Noxa sele ikho, iba lolunye uxanduva ukwenza amaqumrhu olawulo-zikolo akuqonde okuqulethwe yile mithetho. Ngako oko nathi malungu eNdlu yoWiso-Mthetho, sinomthwalo wokufundisa abantu ngale mithetho ingakumbi amaqumrhu olawulo- zikolo nabazali.

Isisithethe sezikolo phantse kuzo zonke iintlanga kweli lizwe ukuba abafundi abatsha esikolweni baqheliswe intlalo nenkqubo yesikolo esitsha. Ezinye zeendlela zokubangenisa ekhaya sezafana nokungathi ziyinxalenye yemithetho nenkqubo evunyiweyo sisikolo. Ikwaluxanduva lukaRhulumente ke ngoko ukukhusela abafundi kwimikhwa ebathoba isidima, ibavise ubuhlungu emzimbeni okanye ibakhubekise emphefumlweni. Isihlomelo somthetho onqanda impatheko-mbi kubafundi siyinika inkxaso epheleleyo ke thina. Kambe ke nakuso esi sigaba somthetho, malenziwe iphulo elaneleyo lokuba lufikelele ulwazi kwabo ulungiselele ukubanceda lo mthetho, kungenjalo uya kuphelela kule miqulu ubhalwe kuyo ungayenzi umsebenzi wawo. (Translation of isiXhosa paragraphs follows.)

[Mr H T SOGONI: Chairperson, hon Minister and hon Members, I would like to express the UDM’s support for this Bill, which includes a number of amendments pertaining to the different aspects of education. Chairperson, the move to allow parents to choose the right time for their children to start school is commendable even though that is dependable on the development of the child and whether he or she is ready for that.

Although we support this amendment, we would also consider very carefully the recommendations of SADTU and the National Association of Governing Bodies, who are also asking that this amendment be supported by enough teaching equipment in all grades that are before Grade R so that everybody can benefit, not only children of rich people who can afford to take their children to schools that are well equipped. The UDM supports the clause that states that a parent should be present or at least represented during a disciplinary hearing. It is also a wise undertaking, Chairperson, that a learner who is under 18 years should be represented by an appropriate person who is perhaps more experienced when he or she is giving evidence in a disciplinary hearing. Notwithstanding that, I have a view that that opportunity will only benefit a few.

In my experience, school governing bodies in black communities, especially in rural areas, do not know about these laws we are discussing here. Even though there may be legislation, it is the responsibility of school governing bodies to acquaint themselves with it. As members of this House, we have a responsibility to educate school governing bodies and parents so that they can understand the laws.

In almost every school of every racial group in this country it is common to find the practice of ``initiation’’ of new learners. Some of the activities are so common that one may think that they have been officially adopted by the schools. It is the responsibility of Government to protect learners and students from practices that lower their dignity and hurt them emotionally and physically. We strongly support the Bill, which seeks to prevent the ill-treatment of learners by others at schools. However, even with this legislation, there should be an effort to disseminate information to those that are most affected by these laws, because if that does not happen, the laws we make will just remain in the big books in which they are recorded and not be implemented.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr M J Mahlangu): Order! Can I just request the table staff to check what is happening with the interpretation. At times it goes off, at times it is on. So the hon the Minister and other members cannot hear as well. Could you please pay attention to that? Apparently there is a problem with the sound. Continue, hon member.

Mnu H T SOGONI: Mphathiswa, ligalelo elikhulu kananjalo ukuba kusekwe umgaqo-nkqubo ngokuziphatha kwamalungu equmrhu lolawulo-zikolo ngenjongo yokuphucula umgangatho wokulawulwa kwazo. Ndithetha nje e-BC Senior Secondary School eMzimkhulu, eMpuma Koloni abafundi bancame bazicelela ngokwabo abaphicothi-zincwadi emva kokuba iqumrhu lolawulo-sikolo libanyevulele labatyhola ngokuba bayazigqatsa, basukela into ekude nabo xa bebecela ukuba kungenelelwe ukuze inqununu yesikolo nomabhalane wayo benziwe banike ingcaciso ethe vetshe ngokusetyenziswa kwemali. Ngale ndlela Sihlalo, ndicinga ukuba kusekude engqinibeni xa kusekho amalungu equmrhu lolawulo-sikolo athengisa ngenyaniso ukuze akhusele inqununu ephantsi kwesityholo esibi sotyiwo-mali.

Esona sihlomelo esithe sazala impikiswano enkulu kwabaninzi, sisigaba seshumi salo Mthetho uYilwayo. Kunoluvo oluqinileyo kwabanye bethu oluthi, ukunika umqeshi igunya lokuqesha abefundisi-ntsapho abasaqalayo kwanabo babuyela kwingqesho emva konyaka nangaphezulu, oko kukuhluthwa kwegunya lokuqesha lamalungu equmrhu lolawulo-zikolo. Nakwiphondo leMpuma Koloni beluqinile olu luvo ngexesha siwugwadla lo Mthetho, kodwa kuthe ngokuye singena nzulu engxoxweni, zehla izibilini satsho sasamkela esi sihlomelo. I- UDM ikholelwa kakhulu ekubeni kwiimeko zengqesho ebezifudula izezabantsundu bodwa, ingakumbi phaya ezilalini, amaqumrhu olawulo-zikolo akalisebenzisi eli gunya. Eneneni kubonakala ngathi akazi ukuba analo. Endaweni yoko eli gunya lixhanyulwa yinqununu yesikolo kuphela ize isebenzise iqumrhu lolawulo-sikolo ukushicilela oko kusisigqibo sayo. Ngamanye amaxesha eli gunya lisetyenziswa kakubi ngokuqesha abahlobo nezihlobo, ngamanye amaxesha kuqeshwe ngokunyobisa okanye kuqeshwe ngomthetho wepolitiki. Ngako ke esi sihlomelo sigunyazisa umqeshi ukuba aqeshe sinezizathu ezincomekayo nangaphezulu kwezigxekekayo ingakumbi xa siqwalasela ukuba umqeshi uyabonisana nequmrhu lolawulo-sikolo nangona eqesha ngaphandle kwezincomo zalo.

Elokugqibela Sihlalo, mandidlulise ilizwi lokubulela kwiSebe leMfundo ngomonde nangobuchule bokunika ingcaciso ngamasolotya athile abe nobuzaza ngexesha lo mthetho besiwugwadla ekomitini phambi kokuba size nawo kwesi sigqeba. Ngamafuphi Mhlalingaphambili, i-UDM iyawuxhasa lo Mthetho uYilwayo. Enkosi. (Translation of isiXhosa paragraphs follows.)

[Hon Minister, the drafting of a code of conduct for members of school governing bodies with the view to developing standards of governance is a commendable exercise. As I speak, at the BC Senior Secondary School at Mzimkhulu in the Eastern Cape, learners requested an audit of the school’s financial statements. The governing body accused them of being too forward when they asked that the principal of the school and the secretary be asked to account for school funds. Chairperson, I think that we are still far from done if there are still members of school governing bodies who do not stand for truth and transparency, but instead protect a principal of a school that is alleged to have embezzled school funds.

Clause 10 of this Bill has been faced with a lot of criticism. Some of us have the strong view that giving the employer the right to appoint new teachers and those that go back to teaching after a break of a year or more, is directed at removing the power of school governing bodies to appoint new incumbents. The Eastern Cape also held this view when we were still deliberating on this Bill, but as we deliberated on it further, we began to understand its implications and thus welcome the amendment.

The UDM strongly believes that because of the conditions under which black people were employed, especially in rural areas, governing bodies do no use their authority. It honestly looks as if they are not going to have it. Instead, it is the school principal only who seems to have all the powers and then uses the governing bodies to rubberstamp his or her decisions. Sometimes this power is abused by practising nepotism or bribery or one may even find political appointments. One could therefore come to the conclusion that the right of the employer to make appointments has more credit, especially when we look at the fact that the employer consults with the school governing body, even though the employer may not consider their recommendations.

Furthermore, Chairperson, I would like to thank the hon Minister of Education for his dedication and expertise in explaining the critical aspects of this Bill when we were discussing it as committee before tabling it in this House. In short, Chairperson, the UDM supports this Bill. Thank you.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr M J Mahlangu): I must apologise. A lot of the member’s speech did not have an interpretation. I am not too sure where the problem is, whether the problem is with the sound system which could not reach the interpreters, or whether it is with the interpreters themselves. Can I request the table staff to attend to these matters, because we are debating serious issues here and other members who could not hear the other language have the right to an interpretation, so that they can hear exactly what the member is saying. I would really appeal to the table staff to look at this as a matter of urgency. Apparently the system is now working properly.

Prof M N KHUBISA (KwaZulu-Natal): Chairperson, first and foremost, let me begin by commending the hon the Minister for his effort to transform education in our country. I wish to kickstart my input in this debate with the wise words of Waldo Emerson, and I quote:

Every accomplishment, great or small, starts with enthusiasm. Nothing great was ever done without it.

The road to providing education for liberation is not as near as some may be tempted to think. The struggle for liberating education is going to be with us for quite some time. The quest for equal, quality and equitable education provision is going to be our preoccupation for some years to come. What was wrong for decades cannot be corrected within a year or two. I do not want to sound like a pessimist in this regard, but I want to say that the hon the Minister is trying by all means to transform education in this country, and I believe that it is also our responsibility to help the Minister in ensuring that education is transformed in our country.

The Education Laws Amendment Bill is one bill that tries to ascend the steep hill of redressing the imbalances of the past. It is for this particular broad reason that we in KwaZulu-Natal have supported the Bill, because it tries by all means to transform our education.

The first thing that we applaud is the attempt of the Minister to lower the entry age for our learners, as stipulated in section 5 of Act 84 of 1996. In most quarters of our country this was hailed as a positive move by the department. I also know that in the country as a whole it was hailed as a wise move. There is ample research that proves beyond any shadow of doubt that children are ready for school at an early age. International experience also proves that children can analyse, integrate and differentiate as early as the age of four.

I know for a fact that there could be arguments against this, but the whole question of the milieu in which children grow up also plays a role. The home background, the environmental background, the school conditions, the peer group and the economic status of the family can all be factors that people could bring to the fore. But I want to say that we hail this move by the hon the Minister.

Another issue that we also applaud is the provision of the National Curriculum Statement. We know that the Minister, through the National Curriculum Statement, is trying to produce a lifelong learner who is confident and independent, literate, numerate and multiskilled, compassionate, and has respect and the ability to participate in a society as a critical and active citizen. I know that there are arguments against all this, but to me this is a wise move.

Members will recall that at the time of negotiating a mandate, we sought clarity on a number of clauses, but we found satisfactory answers. We are a nation in a learning curve and there is a lot that we still have to learn along the way. Whilst the whole question of uniform standards on learner assessment is mentioned as the prerogative of the Minister, some people doubted whether we needed a national curriculum. But in order to create a framework, and procedures and standards, there is a need for a curriculum statement.

Clause 4 provides for the accompaniment of a learner by an intermediary, a parent or anyone designated by a parent. This is a praiseworthy exercise.

The prohibition of initiation practices in clause 5 is also a welcome trend- setting mechanism by the hon the Minister. Learners feel denigrated, undermined and dehumanised when initiation practices are conducted.

The same can be said of corporal punishment, which lowers the dignity of the individual. We in KwaZulu-Natal feel that the Minister has undertaken a wise move by amending the legislation in respect of the abolishment of corporal punishment.

With regard to clause 10 it was felt, specially during public hearings, that the Minister had done a good thing by intervening in some of the functions of school governing bodies, because there are complaints that school governings bodies are sometimes nepotistic in dealing with education. There is also a need to empower school governing bodies, because some of them cannot differentiate between management and governance. They fail to see that they are there to govern and not to manage education. So, there is a need for training in respect of these institutions so that they can play a more meaningful role.

Finally, the registration of further training institutions is a move in the right direction, because we have a lot of fly-by-night schools. Some of them are causing problems, offering education that is not accredited, even doctorates for that matter. So we feel that the Minister has done a good thing by coming with the clause on the abolishment of those schools that are not registered. [Applause.]

Adv A H GAUM (Western Cape): Chairperson, from the outset this Education Laws Amendment Bill has been characterised by a number of differing opinions, which has resulted in a number of proposals and counterproposals. In terms of the initial proposals presented by the Minister and his department, reservations about three of the clauses being amended were expressed, namely those regarding the appointment of educators, the lowering of the admission age and the powers of the national Minister to make regulations on a wide range of matters, including the curriculum.

At this juncture it is important to point out that as a province we agree with the objectives of the Bill as far as appointments of new educators and those who had a break in their service are concerned. According to the explanatory memorandum to the Bill, the reason for the measures proposed is to make it easier for provinces to place new recruits to the teaching profession, especially in rural areas, or those returning to the profession after a break in service.

The aim of this process is to ensure the fair distribution of well- qualified educators and assist in the placement of students who have been awarded bursaries or loans by either their employer or the state to study. We wholeheartedly support these aims. We do not, therefore, have a problem with the intent of the Bill, but do not all agree on the method of achieving these objectives.

Die aanvanklike weergawe van die wetsontwerp wat provinsiale onderwysdepartemente toelaat om sekere opvoeders direk aan te stel, druis in teen die gees van die Suid-Afrikaanse Skolewet deurdat dit ‘n beduidende inperking van die betrokkenheid van beheerliggame by die aanstelling van opvoeders in skole verteenwoordig het.

Ek en my departement het, as ‘n kompromis, die volgende prosedure aanbeveel wat die magte van beheerliggame sou beskerm: posvlak 1-poste word geadverteer; die beheerliggaam beveel die suksesvolle kandidaat by die departement vir aanstelling aan; die departement maak ‘n lys van al die onsuksesvolle kandidate wat eerste aanstellings is, en van dié wat ná ‘n diensonderbreking wil terugkeer en wat gewillig is om geplaas te word waar hulle benodig word; die departement voorsien die lys aan skole wat nie in staat was om hulle vakatures te vul nie; en ná oorleg met die onderskeie beheerliggame, sal die werkgewer hierdie opvoeders dienooreenkomstig plaas. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)

[The original version of the Bill, which allows provincial departments of education to directly appoint certain educators, goes against the spirit of the South African Schools Act in that it represented a significant limitation of the involvement of governing bodies with the appointment of educators at schools.

My department and I, as a compromise, recommended the following procedure which would protect the powers of governing bodies: post level-1 posts are advertised; the governing body recommends the successful candidates to the department for appointment; the department makes a list of all the unsuccessful candidates who are first appointments and of those who want to come back after a break in service and who are willing to be placed where they are needed; the department provides the list to schools who were not in a position to fill their vacancies; and after consultation with the different governing bodies, the employer will place these educators accordingly.]

Following this proposal, and extensive discussions at the Council for Education Ministers, I had the impression - and I know that there is a difference of opinion on this matter between me and Minister Asmal - that it was agreed to amend the Bill to involve governing bodies in consultation on three aspects, namely the post to be filled in this new way, the requirements of the post, and also the eventual appointment.

I was therefore surprised that the version of the Education Laws Amendment Bill which was placed before Parliament’s Portfolio Committee on Education only made provision for the requirements of the post to be discussed with the governing body. It was therefore with regret that I had to withdraw my personal support for the whole scheme.

Although I am an advocate of greater integration of teaching staff in our schools and support the idea of proper utilisation of qualified teachers, I believe that governing body involvement in this process should be protected, given the high expectations we have of these important bodies. The Minister referred to the cumbersome appointment process of educators. I would like to tell the Minister that one of our greatest problems is the number of disputes being declared. There should be a mechanism to dismiss disputes without delay where there is clearly no prima facie case. And I would really want us to discuss that at one point or another at the Council of Education Ministers.

Voorts is daar ook die siening dat die mag wat in die aanvanklike weergawe van die wetsontwerp aan die nasionale Minister gegee is om regulasies te maak, sy konstitusionele mandaat om norme, standaarde en raamwerke te verskaf, te bowe gegaan het. Dit was nou in die aanvanklike weergawe. Wat die aanvanklike weergawe van klousule 61 van die wetsontwerp betref, sou dit die nasionale Minister byvoorbeeld toegelaat het om ‘n nasionale kurrikulum in die fynste detail voor te skryf. Daarenteen glo ek dat die bedoeling was om artikel 146(2) van die Grondwet te beperk tot sake soos norme en standaarde, die raamwerk en beleid met betrekking tot kurrikulumsake. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraph follows.) [There is also furthermore the view that the power, which was given to the national Minister in the original version of the Bill to make regulations, has exceeded his constitutional mandate to provide norms, standards and frameworks. That was in the original version. Clause 61, in the original version of the Bill, would have allowed the national Minister, for example, to prescribe a national curriculum in the finest detail. On the contrary, I believe that the intention was to limit section 146(2) of the Constitution to matters such as norms and standards, the framework and policy with regard to curriculum matters.]

However, the latest version of the Bill - the one before us today - now takes cognisance of this viewpoint and limits the Minister’s power to prescribe a national curriculum statement, not a national curriculum as such, but a statement. This is in keeping with the Constitution and we want to tell the Minister that we truly appreciate this amendment.

Clauses 3 and 9 of the Bill provide the Minister with the power to determine matters regarding curriculum and assessment. Currently we have a four-point scale of assessment in the GET phase. A five-point scale is proposed for the FET phase.

Replacing percentages with these scales does not allow for a distinction to be made between below-average, average, above-average and excellent achievement. This is problematic and I would hope that the Minister would review this, given his new power in terms of the Bill.

Die wetsontwerp bepaal ook die toelatingsouderdom vir graad 0 as vyf en vir graad 1 as ses. My departement beraam dat dit die leerderinname met ongeveer 30 000 in ons provinsie sal laat toeneem, teen ‘n koste van R81 miljoen. Alhoewel daar niks fout met die beginsel is nie, is die gevolge van hierdie klousule potensieel problematies, tensy fondse ingevolge artikel 35 van die wet op die bestuur van openbare finansies beskikbaar gestel word. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraph follows.)

[The Bill also determines the admission age for Grade 0 as five and for Grade 1 as six. My department estimates that this would increase the learner intake with approximately 30 000 in our province, at a cost of R81 million. Although there is nothing wrong with the principle, the consequences of this clause is potentially problematic, unless funds in terms of section 35 of the Act on the management of public finances are made available.]

I would like to plead with the Minister that the immense pressure that is being placed on provinces due to unfunded mandates like these and due to national decisions with a lot of merit, but according to which provinces are expected to implement decisions at a very late stage of the school year, be minimised as far as is humanly possible.

One of the most positive aspects of the Bill, and one that is strongly supported by everyone, is clause 12, allowing the Minister to prescribe performance standards for teachers according to which they can be evaluated. I have personally also pushed this matter at consecutive meetings of the CEM. There must be rewards for excellent work, but also consequences for continued failure.

As in any other profession, teachers must be evaluated and provided with the opportunity to improve their performance. We believe that this will result in a more effective and skilled group of educators. This is a very welcome and positive part of this Bill, and I would like to thank the Minister for this.

In order to maintain a balanced perspective of the Bill, it must be viewed in its totality. The intentions of the Bill are noble, but all of us cannot agree with the methods proposed to achieve some of these objectives. However, there are also very positive aspects of the Bill that all of us can support wholeheartedly and that will bring about significant change in our education system. For example, we would like to thank the Minister very much for the provision regarding performance standards. Viewed in its totality, and taking into account all views, the Western Cape has decided to abstain from voting on the Bill.

Mr N M RAJU: Chair, hon Minister, hon special delegates, hon colleagues, the Education Laws Amendment Bill seeks to amend various education Acts to enable the Minister of Education to regulate, inter alia, policy areas for public and independent schools, for example the admission age of a learner.

During the first year of the implementation of the South African Schools Act, Act No 84 of 1996, two categories of children will be admitted to Grades R and 1 respectively as follows: in Grade 1, those who are five and turning six and those who are four and turning five by 30 June in each year of admission; in Grade 1, those who are six and turning seven and those who are five and turning six by 30 June in the year of admission.

The effective lowering of the age of admission by six months brings South Africa in line with international practice. But is the broad South African community ready for the implementation of this new, certainly progressive step? Are Grade R facilities readily available? Do all our multicultural communities have equal access to quality preprimary facilities? These are some of our concerns, but this amendment is supported by my party.

One national process for assessment of learner achievement implies that there will be one common national process for learner achievement in the Republic, as opposed to provincial processes. This is in line with the injunction of the Cabinet decision of 20 June 2001 to establish a national curriculum and a system of learner assessment.

The appointment of an intermediary at disciplinary hearings to assist a minor learner in giving evidence is a welcome step. No child should feel intimidated or be made vulnerable when giving evidence at disciplinary hearings. This amendment would certainly increase the rate of successful prosecutions. The prohibition of initiation practices is highly welcome. The Human Rights Commission had recommended that regulations be promulgated to ensure that initiation practices be abolished by means of regulations. Most initiation practices are humiliating, degrading and sometimes injurious to the victim, in flagrant disregard and disrespect of constitutional imperatives. The DP regards human rights and the dignity of our children as non-negotiable. Corporal punishment and initiation practices are not only abusive and primitive, but unconstitutional.

What my party feels uncomfortable about is the proposed amendment to the Employment of Educators Act of 1998. Removing the right of selection and recommendation from school governing bodies is definitely problematic. The concept of school governing bodies was a new principle that propounded a novel partnership between a community and a provincial department of education. For too long our education has been remote-controlled, from the community’s point of view. Indeed, the education of yesterday can be described as a tug of war, with departments of education and the local communities at opposite ends.

But the inception of the role of school governing bodies established a new covenant between state departments of education and school communities. Parents took ownership of schools, recommending and appointing educators who would be responsible to teach their children. But really, we see the attempt by the Minister to rule by regulation'' as an erosion of one of the most important rights of school governing bodies. This is seen by my party as another manifestation of the ANC's propensity towards centralism; to govern by decree. This is no different from the previous regime's modus operandi which, as the hon Minister himself aptly described in his opening remarks, was a highly authoritative and prescribed manner of governance’’.

The DP sees the circumscribing of the powers of school governing bodies in appointing teachers as a potential minefield of long, drawn-out disputes between teacher unions, governing bodies and state departments.

But, in conclusion let me hasten to welcome the hon Minister’s decision to conduct a comprehensive review of how SGBs are functioning. There is a ground swell of dissatisfaction at the high-handed manner in which some SGBs are misusing their authority. Anecdotes are plentiful. They certainly would make for despairing reading. But the fact remains that as an instrument to get parents and communities involved in who teaches their children, the misdemeanours of some SGBs should not be enough to circumscribe the potential for the good of our schools.

The DP therefore cannot help but oppose the Bill.

Ms B D CREECY (Gauteng): Chairperson, hon Minister and colleagues, Gauteng welcomes and supports the Education Laws Amendment Bill. We held public hearings in our province on this Bill and I am happy to say that there were many teacher unions, governing bodies and stakeholders in education who actually came forward to support the Bill.

There were those who were opposed to it, and I will deal with some of those issues shortly. But one of the most refreshing things about our public hearings was that there were, in certain instances, principals from northern suburbs high schools in Johannesburg who were prepared to break out of the kind of paranoic laager that my colleague from the DP likes to take shelter in, and actually to say that they believed that the deployment of educators and the deracialisation of the teaching component would assist the situation.

Let me start with the issue of the minimum curriculum statement. I think one thing we have to reiterate is that we are not talking here about a national curriculum. [Interjections.]

Listen, you might learn something! This is the education debate. [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr M L Mahlangu): Order!

Ms B D CREECY (Gauteng): We are not talking about the national curriculum; we are talking about the minimum curriculum statement that will set out basic outcomes for the education system. Why do we need this? We come from a deeply divided past. We are still living in a deeply divided country and the state has a role to play in nation-building, and in ensuring that all children, whether they go to state schools or independent schools, have basic knowledge and skills that will equip them to enter the job market in the future.

At our public hearings we heard of the concerns of people, particularly from the religious sector, that this was going to undermine the rights of parents to influence religious education in schools. I think our province wants to reject that categorically. We are not saying to independent schools that they would not be allowed to do such things. However, what we are saying is that we cannot have a situation where children emerge from several years of schooling and do not know more than one language in our multilinguistic country, and do not know maths and science. That is a human right and as Government I think we have a right to protect that.

The other issue - I think this was referred to by the hon the Minister - is that, even in my own constituency, which is the inner city of Johannesburg, we still have fly-by-night schools, schools that pose as educational institutions but in fact offer very little in the way of hard curriculum outcome. Many of the parents who send their children there are poor parents and need protection from those types of institutions.

I also think it is important that we should clarify the fact that this particular amendment in no way undermines the right of bona fide examination bodies that are set up in terms of the General and Further Education and Training Quality Assurance Act. The South African Schools Act does not determine the right of these bodies to exist, and therefore this amendment cannot take away those rights. I think that it is important that we understand that, and do not mislead the public in the course of this debate.

The second thing that our province supports categorically is the right of the Department of Education to deploy teachers. The reason that we support it is that we think this is a fundamental provision that will allow us to protect that standard and quality of education in our country. The hon the Minister has spoken about the lengthy and cumbersome processes that pertain to teacher deployment. In our public hearings we heard evidence that in the greater Johannesburg alone there are 900 unemployed educators, and yet we still have classrooms in our province where we do not have teachers.

There has been a lot of talk about incentivisation, and we support incentivisation. The Gauteng department of education is spending R20 000 a year of taxpayers’ money on providing bursaries for teachers who want to study maths, science and technology. That is incentivisation. But some of those teachers cannot get jobs. They cannot get jobs because in all communities in our country there is prejudice against ``outsiders’’.

If we want to give the taxpayer value for money, if we want to protect the rights of learners to learn, then we have to be prepared, as Government, to make an intervention in a situation where the market has clearly failed to deploy educators adequately.

I think we also felt that Government has a duty to deracialise the teacher component in our schools. Many schools in this country now have a situation where the learner component has been deracialised. That pertains particularly, in many instances, to the former Model C schools. We cannot have a situation in our schools where the only African person those children ever see is employed as a gardener or a cleaner. That is not building our nonracialism; that is not teaching our children to understand that we live in a society where all people, of all racial groups, can hold positions of authority and can influence the direction of children. [Applause.] In conclusion, I want to deal with the issue of decentralisation and devolution. The hon the Minister talked about the commitment of the ANC to ensuring that parents, communities and learners work together in a partnership with teachers and principals. We remain committed to that. That is the cornerstone of our approach to governance. But to pretend that one can fanatically adhere to decentralisation and devolution for its own sake, no matter what the conditions that pertain in a particular school or situation, is nothing more than a cynical commitment to making sure that schools in historically disadvantaged areas remain disadvantaged, and that schools in historically privileged areas remain privileged. That is not something that we can allow. We cannot allow a situation where, in the name of decentralisation and devolution, we say that those schools in the townships and the rural areas must pull themselves up by their own broken bootstraps, because it is not going to happen.

I know that in my own province we will welcome the Minister’s statement today, that he intends to review the functioning of governing bodies. In our own annual report we have actually asked the Department of Education to review the capacity-building processes that it has put in place for school governing bodies. We are of the opinion that unless we provide those bodies with greater capacity, greater guidance and greater support, they are going to remain very hollow bodies. [Applause.]

Mr B J TOLO: Chairperson, I will start with Mr Raju. I think we will transform this country, with or without the support of the DP. We will, of course, drag them along, kicking and screaming, because they are a tiny minority. They will not stop us. Of course, we would also like to remind hon member Raju that this is a section 76 Bill and parties can only howl. We take provinces into consideration when it comes to section 76 Bills. So, it is just howling.

Chairperson, hon members and provincial delegates, South African society has undergone major social, economic and political changes over the past few years as we have sought to establish a democratic, united and nonsexist society. There is no doubt that our ANC-led Government has taken huge strides in its endeavour to transform education, to ensure that our victory translates into improvement mainly in the previously disadvantaged schools, both rural and urban.

The Education Laws Amendment Bill tabled here today seeks to galvanise the victories, whilst at the same time giving further impetus to schooling on an equitable and nonracial basis. Moreover, it seeks to amend those aspects of our legislation that do not support these objectives, through the amending of the five pieces of legislation as supported by all provinces but one. We do not care about parties. These amendments are intended to ensure that the hon the Minister can make policies that are legally binding.

Other amendments, such as the amendments to the General and Further Education and Training Quality Assurance Act, are essentially technical and minor in nature. To avoid further litigation, as in the Harris case, the department has had to reduce the age of admission by six months in both public and private schools with effect from 2004. This, of course, as indicated earlier on, has many advantages. This will also facilitate the smooth movement of learners from one school type to another.

The Bill provides for a National Curriculum Statement applicable to both public and independent schools. This is an important instrument, since it affords us the opportunity to benchmark our curriculum and ensure similar approaches and outcomes. Moreover, it places a constitutional responsibility on private schools to provide education that is of equal or even better standards than what is provided in public schools. As a country we cannot have different standards in different provinces. We are one country with different cultures, one nation in the making, and we should have the same standards.

Discipline in an organisation is the bedrock of success. It is a prerequisite for stability and progress in our school environment. Schools with good intentions have dragged learners to disciplinary hearings without the knowledge of their parents. The amendment to section 8 prescribes that a learner must be accompanied by his or her parents or a person designated by the parents to such hearings. This is to be welcomed and it will go a long way towards reducing the number of disciplinary hearings, because many learners would not want their parents to know that they are naughty. This section also makes provision for the appointment of an intermediary at disciplinary hearings in schools where a minor is involved. This will prevent intimidation and the psychological torture of minors in our schools.

The provision that mandates the MEC for Education to determine the code of conduct for governing bodies is one of the most important aspects of the Bill. There exists no provision to ensure proper conduct by individual members of governing bodies. More often than not, the members of school governing bodies fail to comply with their responsibilities. Such failure could result in members either being suspended or dismissed, but in the same breath we want to join other speakers in this debate in calling upon the department to introduce training programmes for these school governing bodies as a matter of urgency.

There are many people in society who left school because of the barbaric and backward nature of initiation practices in schools. In this way our country lost potential intellectuals who would have contributed positively to the development of our country. We unreservedly agree with the Human Rights Commission that this practice dehumanises learners. We congratulate the department for proposing that this be outlawed once and for all. We hasten to say that those practices which are to be outlawed have nothing in common with positive orientation, as long as it does not directly or indirectly negatively harm learners physically, mentally or emotionally.

It is generally accepted that teachers are doing an invaluable job in moulding learners into adults who are able to contribute to building our country. It is important for teachers, therefore, to be evaluated from time to time, with the aim of helping them realise their noble task. It is desirable that the performance standards according to which they are evaluated are standards agreed upon by all the affected parties. Unfortunately, that agreement is not forthcoming. The hon the Minister, therefore, is left with no option but to prescribe those performance standards. This is done with the understanding that if at any given time there is an agreement, that agreement will be observed and upheld.

We must hasten to say that the type of evaluation we are talking about here has nothing in common with the type of evaluation we experienced under apartheid. That type of evaluation was meant to find fault and to punish people, and was destructive rather than constructive. We are saying that the evaluation we are talking about here is meant to be progressive and help the teachers.

I was a teacher myself and I remember that during those times an inspector of schools would leave his car some 500 metres away from the school or somewhere behind a bush so that he would not be detected when he came to the school. Sometimes one would just see an inspector peeping into the classroom one was teaching. It was humiliating. The type of evaluation we are talking about here has nothing to do with that experience that some of us had.

The necessity for the amendment of the Educators’ Employment Act is still generating howls and jeers from the galleries where the privileged are seated, simply because they do not take kindly to the reality that appointments at the majority of schools still take place on racial, ethnic, language and even gender grounds. In terms of these provisions, first-time applications of teachers and those who might have broken service will be done by the Department of Education and not the school governing bodies. We are saying this is not taking away the powers of the school governing bodies, but will enhance proper education in our schools.

It must also be noted that no employer will offer one a job and then ask one where one would like to work. Appointments are made against vacancies which, in terms of the legislation, may now be offered to new graduates. This will simplify the process for schools, which will not have to wait for the Gazette, advertising and interviews.

We also want to remind those members in the opposition benches that this is not intended to erode the powers of the school governing bodies. It will promote a fairer distribution of teachers and skills between rural and urban schools, and will also go a long way in deracialising our schools. As it is, especially in the former model C schools in urban areas, as the Minister has indicated, one will find that 90% of the students are black but 100% of the teachers are white. We think that this is an anomaly and with this provision we will be able to correct this type of situation.

In conclusion, the Education Laws Amendment Bill is the culmination of our Government’s continuous efforts to steer this general and further education band to a new reality, free from the shackles of the apartheid past, and one that is more responsive to the needs of this country.

The ANC supports the Bill. [Applause.]

The MINISTER OF EDUCATION: Madam Chairperson, sorry, do you know, I am not used to your furniture yet.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: There is a trick to it. You just push it back a little bit and then you move away. That is right! [Laughter.]

The MINISTER OF EDUCATION: A very famous economist John Maynard Keynes once said: ``When the facts change, I change my mind’’. So when the facts on the ground change one needs to react without being opportunistic and without giving up fundamental principles. When the actual facts on the ground change and they stare at us, all of those who are blind to the need for change refuse to react. This is a very serious indictment, both of our intelligence and our position in a multicultural and multireligious society that is trying to forge some kind of national identity. That is why I am saddened by two or three interventions.

I would like to have in fact referred to the very helpful recommendations made by people who do not come from my party, but time does not allow it. I do not think that Mr Sogoni or Prof Khubisa come from my party, but I would have liked to refer to some of the very important proposals and suggestions they made. However, since this is an actual debate, I must respond to some of the points made. I regret to say then to my two brothers and to others who made extraordinary contributions here that I would not be able to refer to them, because for the record we are going to clear up some of the things.

Because the record is not only found in Hansard, but also in the minds and imagination of our people, let me start off with the first general issue. I sat next to the previous Minister of Education for five years. The South African Schools Act, the National Education Policy Act, the amendments to the legislation, last year’s amendments to the legislation and this legislation was opposed by the DP. No social legislation attached to education, which is of a fundamental nature, not of marginal importance, has ever been supported by the DP. It is an indictment of change and development, particularly since they now claim to be the custodians of the school governing bodies, which are in the South African Schools Act.

We, in the ANC, and particularly Comrade Blade Nzimande were instrumental in working out the position of school governing bodies and their powers. We initiated them as we initiated the Constitutional Court as a protection. We initiated the list system, the proportional representation, as a protection for minorities. We initiated the proposals about the Public Protector. [Interjections.] We initiated the constitutional provisions relating to all the commissions of the youth and the needy. [Interjections.] We initiated them as part of the democratic unfolding.

AN HON MEMBER: That is true! The MINISTER: However, every five or six years we have to review how they are working.

AN HON MEMBER: Absolutely!

The MINISTER: That is why I reviewed outcome-based education, which has never been supported by the DP. I regret to say that we have a co-operative agreement with the New NP. However, the New NP is in the same boat as the DP; they have never supported a piece of progressive legislation.

Adv A H GAUM: No, that is not true!

The MINISTER: No, they have not! [Interjections.] I am sorry; it is the hon member’s imagination. Adv Gaum is economical with the truth and I will come to that in a moment. [Interjections.] He is being economical with the truth!

Adv A H GAUM: That is not even worth an argument!

The MINISTER: Well, the hon member is too young to remember what happened five or six years ago, because progressive legislation is social legislation.

Adv A H GAUM: [Inaudible.] … on behalf of Ireland! [Interjections.]

The MINISTER: No, no, the hon member is guilty of being a yahoo. He is a yahoo man! He knows nothing, he never learnt anything and he has forgotten everything again. [Interjections.]

Let me deal specifically with this. First of all, let me say to Mr Adams that Judge Bertelsmann never said that the best interests of the child are only in fact protected by the school governing body. He levelled no criticism against the province in that particular area. What he was concerned with was the procedures that took place. Therefore the hon member cannot generalise. In any case, we are putting beyond doubt the procedure for first-time appointments and, of course, those who come back.

As far as Mr Adams’ corporal punishment is concerned, I do not think he can be a sneaking regarder who says that he supports the law, but in fact what happens in reality? We did not make corporal punishment illegal. The Constitutional Court said that it is cruel and unusual punishment. However, let me say now that I have been in touch with the SA Council of Educators. To inflict corporal punishment is illegal, it is assault and battery and it is violence against a person.

Let me be quite clear then, because in the light of what I have been told by KwaZulu-Natal this is observed uniformly. Teachers who inflict corporal punishment, with or without provocation, would be struck off the role of the SA Council of Educators, apart from the fact that the parents could sue them and bring a civil case for violence against children.

We have proposed alternatives to corporal punishment. We belong to a national ministry and it is the job of the provinces to implement these alternatives. We have proposed in a publication that meetings should be held in the teacher’s centres. We have proposed them. [Interjections.] [Laughter.] These proposals are on record in the library here! [Interjections.] I want to say that the anecdotal stories of Mr Adams are irrelevant.

The leader of the New NP in the National Assembly said that he was beaten, hit and assaulted and that everyone could see that there was nothing wrong with him. My reply to that was might he not have been a better man if he had not been assaulted and brutalised in school. [Interjections.] That is a fact! The plain fact of the matter is that it is now illegal and we must observe the law. I must not nod at the law. In the same way …

AN HON MEMBER: What about discipline?

The MINISTER: Regarding discipline, we have proposed alternatives. The hon member does not listen.

AN HON MEMBER: So why is he talking? [Interjections.]

The MINISTER: First of all, I do not think we have a major problem if one looks at it carefully, unless one is saying nothing good is happening in South Africa. As a Minister, who is a critical person by nature, I do not believe that we have a fundamental problem of discipline in South African schools if one goes around to the schools. Read what is happening, not in the inner cities, but in private schools in countries that I cannot mention, because I am a Minister and I do not want the ambassadors and High Commissioners to be writing to me.

Look at what is happening on the ground. In the United States schools, not in the inner school centres, are armed garrisons, really armed garrisons. This is because of the serial killings that are taking place. In the United Kingdom, in the very posh private girls schools, there is no discipline of any kind. We are much better at this. Mr Adams talked about respect. Respect must be earned. It cannot be laid down. It must be really earned by all authorities, by all of us. Because of a Minister there cannot be any difference to that. One has to respect and earn that respect. That is why we say in the policy alternatives that one cannot earn respect by beating. What happens is that learners will become withdrawn. That is why I say that it is very important to recognise that this must be a process of growing up together. In this area we are not in fact the most violent and most difficult country in the world. I cannot go into Mr Sogoni’s very progressive proposal about that. I agree with him and I agree with Ms Creecy. In fact, I am going to find out through this review how much provinces have done, how much allocation of resources for the training of school governing bodies have taken place.

Let us not be sentimental about school governing bodies. Where they have worked there have been parent teacher association bodies. There are many cases where I have been to schools where they still have, in tandem, the school governing body and the parent teacher association. The real decisions are taken in the parent teacher association. That is totally wrong, because one has 80% Africans in a school, but 20% on the school governing body. The parent teacher association has lasted 25 to 30 years and they take the real decisions. So I want to investigate this. Is it true or is it anecdotal, because it firstly represents a particular privilege. They take the real decisions and the school governing body is a reporting body. So I am going to look at this, Mr Sogoni, and look very carefully at the training. Next year the third cycle starts and let us now investigate in the provinces how much actual training is provided. In the same way I agree with Prof Khubisa, like Emerson, that everything starts with enthusiasm. We must not put the dull hand of alienation and doubt. Teachers must be fortified and enthusiasm is vital for their teaching. I agree with him very much.

Let me turn to the age at which children are school-ready. There are differences of opinion and the law allows it. There are people who rightly say - I am a grandfather so I have some interest in this - that children up to a certain age of six or seven need a home life of cherishing, homeliness and the kind of things that happen there. I went to school when I was nine years old for various reasons, but I finished school, on the cycle, by eighteen. I remember the extraordinary advantage of growing up with my father. Not all of us can do that, but there are different views about it. We are leaving it to parents to decide which is the right age.

I want to say to Adv Gaum that there is a difference in recollection. I said that he was economical with the truth, because I wrote to him about the issues that he raised and I did not receive a contradictory response to that. [Interjections.] I did not receive that, because my minutes say that at the beginning we proposed that there must be an agreement between the province and the school governing body. Everybody said that this would be cumbersome and impossible to operate. There would be disputes left, right and centre, and that is why we amended it. The recollection he has is not born out by the facts, and I am prepared in fact to enter into the discussion. Secondly, it is not true that we have unfunded mandates.

The Grade R operation, which is vital to carry out the constitutional provisions for compulsory education of 10 years, would only become fully operative in 2004 at my request. I do not mind Mr Gaum claiming victories. I do not mind that at all, although they may not be entirely in keeping with the facts as to what may have happened. [Interjections.] The important thing is that we proposed changes, because we work collectively in our department and therefore I must pay tribute to my officials. There is no il duce, una voce, one dictator, one voice, in the department.

We work collectively, and sometimes they do not show enough respect for the Minister by contradicting him all the time. However, we work collectively and the changes that we bring about are necessitated by the needs of our society. As the hon member can see, our department is made up of a wide mosaic of the traditions of South Africa. However, the hon member must remember that there are Xhosa teachers who do not have Xhosa as home language. We have Xhosa speakers and speakers of other indigenous languages who do not speak like the children do.

There are appointments that are continuing to be made where fully qualified people, who happen to be black, are not given the posts and this cannot be accepted. Always think of John Maynard Keynes, when the facts change I must react to the changes. We see that we do not have much time left. The extraordinary tolerance of our African brothers and sisters is remarkable. We do not have enough time. There must come a time, for example, that the whole issue of the language of instruction in schools become an issue again, because five or six years later we must look at it, although I subscribe very strongly and trenchantly to the whole question of mother tongue instruction.

Grade R will start in 2004 and there are two years to plan. What Adv Gaum should be looking at is that expenditure on education in the Western Cape declined under the administration of his predecessor. Money was transferred to building roads. Mr Manuel, the Minister of Finance, has given additional sums of money. I have written to all the premiers today to say please, this money is for education. But one has to fight for it. This money is not meant to be sent somewhere else.

The constitutional provision we accepted as a compromise in 1994 is that the provinces get the bulk sum of the money. They then decide where they are going to spend the money. That is why in the Western Cape, of all the provinces in South Africa, the actual percentage of money out of the big lump sum has fallen over the last four years, whereas in Gauteng it has gone up. [Interjections.] So it is up to the province and the MEC to fight for the resources for early childhood education. [Interjections.]

Let me refer to what Gauteng did. They closed down, by public notice, early childhood schools, because they were in certain geographical areas only. Therefore the majority of the population of Gauteng could not get access to the schools. They were wholly virtually all of one race. They closed them down to use that money for purposes of wider distribution in early childhood education and many of the provinces prefer doing that.

As for Mr Raju, what does one say? [Laughter.] What does one say about Mr Raju’s extreme language? He may be the messenger, and I believe in never shooting the messenger [Interjections.] I do not think it is worth it, or, to give another analogy, the organ-grinder and the monkey. I believe never shoot the monkey, go for the organ-grinder. It is the organ-grinder that decides this. [Laughter.]

Hon members must know it is a remarkable thing for Mr Raju to say that there are tugs of war taking place. What tug of war? The provinces have not fully developed the school governing bodies to perform their function, in my view. That is why I am cutting out the review, because I go around to speak to the associations of school governing bodies and met with the SA Association of School Governing Bodies only last week. They said that they need more resources and that they want to set up federal bodies, and so forth. So I go to people on the ground and listen to them and it is very uneven.

Therefore, in the light of the fact that teachers are not being appointed, as they deserve to be appointed, we have to review this. There is no tug of war. However, if one wants to say that everything is hunky-dory in the area of school governing bodies, then of course one is taking a big imaginative leap. It is a leap of the imagination, because one does not understand what is happening on the ground. I think we should draw a veil along the contribution of the hon Mr Raju, because we cannot really say much more about it.

Finally, let me turn to the very important question of capacity. I think many members of the House, who made positive contributions, have referred to the need to build the capacity of school governing bodies in one way or the other. I think members of Parliament and this House can help in the building of capacity and we can do so, because we cannot depend on civil servants and the provincial authorities only. So I ask then that this should be a national mobilisation for democracy, because these are very important elements. However, we have to review exactly how they operate, and there is no point in subscribing to some kind of artificial commitment when we know on the ground the position may be different.

May I end by making a pleasant announcement. I am pleased that the United Nations has invited a South African to play a lead part in the World Aids Day event, together with the President of the General Assembly. The guest of honour will be Whoopie Goldberg. The theme in New York will be “live and let live”, with the focus on the stigma and discrimination that often accompanies the disease.

It is therefore most appropriate that our ambassador will be a five-year old girl who is vibrant, friendly, optimistic and HIV positive. Fortunately she is supported by understanding and accepting family and friends. She shares this experience with millions of South African children every day. The girl is of course Kami, our newest moppet on Takalani Sesame Street, the South African children’s TV show. Her name, Kami, means acceptance. We are glad to share her with the world on World Aids Day and South Africa once again shows leadership in coping with HIV/Aids, and, of course, brings in the finest principles in the educational system. I am proud, or one can say proudly South African, that Kami will be the ambassador. Kami is a South African creation, a South African product.

I commend this Bill to hon members. It is necessary because it is conditioned by our own needs in our country and in the light of our own review. Intelligent people will always review. Like all relationships, personal relationships too, one reviews them now and then, because if one does not review them and the mountain slides and hits one, one would not know why this has happened. We want to know why things happen and that is why I commend those eight provinces that after their own intense discussion, as we know, have supported this Bill. [Applause.]

Debate concluded.

Question put: That the Bill be agreed to.

IN FAVOUR OF: Eastern Cape, Free State, Gauteng, KwaZulu-Natal, Mpumalanga, Northern Cape, Northern Province, North West.

ABSTAINED: Western Cape.

Bill accordingly agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.

                   HIGHER EDUCATION AMENDMENT BILL

            (Consideration of Bill and of Report thereon)

The MINISTER OF EDUCATION: Madam Chairperson, this is a very straightforward piece of legislation, but it allows me therefore to make one or two general points of interest.

I think there is little doubt that in the broad canvas of educational change and transformation, this year has been the year of higher education, and my staff and I have spent more time on higher education than on any other issue. The Cabinet’s approval of our Ministry’s proposals for restructuring and transformation of the institutional landscape in higher education in May 2002 has set the stage to give effect to the implementation of a framework for the renewal and development of our higher education system, as outlined in the national plan for higher education of early 2002.

The ensuing debate - and there has been a debate, including the legal challenge to the Government’s proposal to establish a single dedicated distance education institution through the merger of Unisa, Technikon SA and part of Vista University - has placed the restructuring of higher education in the centre of public debate on education. In this regard, therefore, I have been privileged in the last months to have interacted with a wide range of higher education institutions and constituencies with regard to restructuring proposals. In addition to this, I have also received representations and restructuring proposals which I invited in June of this year. These interactions and representations have been useful in assisting me to make my decisions regarding the restructuring of the higher education landscape. I want to make it quite clear that in good faith I have addressed every one of the representations made, including the representations from the Council for Higher Education, the South African Universities Vice-chancellors’ Association, and the Committee of Technikon Principals. One must work on that basis and there has to be a large element of ownership by the institutions themselves before the restructuring and development of higher education take place.

Clearly, what we have to do, is to make the effort to ensure that future generations will graduate from higher education institutions but owe no allegiance to the geopolitical imagination of apartheid’s planners if we are to make significant progress.

As members know, the council of Unisa has withdrawn its legal challenge to the establishment of a single dedicated distance education institution, and therefore it is back on track. More importantly, with all the problems that these kinds of mergers have, the M L Sultan Technikon and Technikon Natal have successfully merged, and a new institution, the Durban Institute of Technology, has been established. Certainly, this goes a long way in strengthening higher education in KwaZulu-Natal. And also, the acceptance by the University of Natal and the University of Durban-Westville that they should merge, in the best interests of Durban and the region, is also a development. The acceptance by the University of Zululand that they will move towards technikon-type education is enormously significant. This shows that the groves of Academe are not filled only with conservative people. And the move towards Richard’s Bay, in co-operation with Richard’s Bay, as part of the technical training, again, is an important development.

Therefore, the main reason for the introduction of the amending Bill is to facilitate the implementation of the restructuring and transformation agenda. So, as the restructuring process unfolds, it will be necessary to review and amend the Higher Education Act, as the legal implications of existing policy are clarified, gaps in the Act are identified and new policies are introduced.

In this regard the amending Bill has two purposes: first to introduce technical amendments; to clarify and bring legal certainty to issues related to the merger of institutions such as the authority to merge institutions; labour relations implications of mergers; and implications for students in terms of rules and regulations governing academic programmes. We are sensitive, for example, to the fact that at some institutions lower fees are paid than at the institution with which it will merge. We must take into account the legislative expectations in this area.

Secondly, we have to introduce amendments that streamline and strengthen the governance structures of higher education institutions. I intend to focus my remarks on the second set of amendments.

Good governance, as we know, is the cornerstone of a well-functioning higher education system. It is the lever that enables the pursuit of academic freedom and institutional autonomy in the context of public accountability. So the existence of properly constituted, functioning councils is essential - as members know, and as Madam Chairperson knows in her own role as chancellor of an institution - to ensure that higher education institutions are able to respond to the demands of public accountability, in particular to demonstrate financial honesty and the capacity to meet national policy goals and priorities. This is however sadly lacking in a number of our higher education institutions.

The absence of good governance is in large measure a product of the composition of their councils, which are unnecessarily large. In some cases the councils are like mass rallies. The only thing that is missing is that there is no toyi-toying of the councillors, but presumably they are too old or too rotund to toyi-toyi into the dining-room. There are up to 50 members sometimes. That is very unwieldy. This is the end result of the post-1994 flourish of democracy, with its focus of transforming, rightly so, undemocratic and unrepresentative councils to change them. So we had all kinds of stakeholders who had to be in a council.

However, in invoking the spirit of democracy, little or no attention was paid to the impact of large councils, representative as they may be, on efficiency and effectiveness. Councils became debating chambers, with meetings lasting eight, nine and ten hours. No decisions were taken as a result. In particular, no attention was paid to ensuring that councils had the necessary expertise to deal with the academic, educational, legal and fiduciary responsibilities.

Although my department has initiated a training programme for council members, it is clear that the necessary expertise is a product of the accumulation of social capital, which the majority of our people have been denied by apartheid. I am referring to that kind of social capital that gives us an idea about precision, about the role of the council, the role of debate, and the necessity to come to conclusions.

In the light of this, the amending Bill limits the size of institutional councils to a maximum of 30 members, while keeping the principle that at least 60% of the members must be external to the institution, from outside the institution. Although, forgive me, left to myself, I have always felt that the majority of councillors should be academics from within the institution, because in the end the council’s job is to ensure, with assent, that teaching, research and community outreach take place. However, I give way to the great flourish of democracy in 1994, that the majority of the members of council must be from outside the institution.

The amending Bill also increases the size of interim councils. I shall explain what interim councils are. They are established to assist in the merger of higher education institutions. We see that at present their current members number five. Now we have increased the minimum of five to a minimum of seven, or a maximum of nine members. This amendment seeks to ensure that the size of interim councils provides for the expertise necessary to discharge its functions efficiently and effectively. I want to state that the provisions for establishing interim councils, which were introduced in the amending legislation of 2001, were not an attempt, as one paper said, to centralise power in the hands of the Minister. Once the interim council is set up, they have the same authority as the present council of institutions. I have no authority to intervene in the functioning of councils, although I am under great pressure, every now and then. I am asked why I do not dismiss the vice-chancellor, or the registrar, or this or that person, or dissolve the council, which is the general demand every time a slight problem arises.

So the interim councils are transitional bodies, necessary to facilitate the merger of higher education institutions. They have specific functions and a limited shelf life - six months, with a possible further six months. The members of the council, except the chairperson, are appointed from nominees submitted by the affected institution. They submit the nominees. The only prerogative I have is the appointment of the chairperson, which does not confer any additional powers on the Minister. Once the chairperson is appointed, he, or she, I hope, acts in a fiduciary capacity as the head of the interim council. There is nothing precluding the affected institution submitting nominees to me for the chairperson’s position, for me to consider.

So the point must be emphasised that the interim councils function with the same authority and autonomy as normal present day institutional councils.

I briefly want to turn my attention to a critical issue that underpins the restructuring and transformation agenda and which is not addressed in the amending Bill. This is the issue of access, both in terms of increasing the participation rate in higher education, as well as ensuring that there is equity in the access. The national plan for higher education indicated that race and gender access should be facilitated by the establishment of a national higher education information and application service, which would have a number of benefits, including providing information on the available pool of 36 institutions, satisfying the information needs of applicants for every available career opportunity, providing career guidance information by faculty, what scholarships are available in each faculty, and most important of all, a national financial aid application form. This will enable the Government to monitor progress in achieving race and gender access.

We have established that the participation rate for Coloureds and Africans is appallingly low by our standards. Fourteen percent of those eligible, in the age group 18 to 20, have access to higher education. For Indians, it is about 37%. For whites it is about 45%. This puts Indians and whites in a privileged category of participation. In Holland, only 35% of the cohort goes to higher education. We cannot continue tolerating this. That is why we are getting more money for the national financial aid scheme. This year it is R80 million; I cannot disclose what it will be next year - I am not allowed to do that yet. This means therefore that 90 000 students in need, black and white by the way, will be eligible for assistance.

What will help also is that I have received a report of the working group appointed to investigate the development of an appropriate model for establishing a national higher education information and application service. The report will soon be released for public comment, and I anticipate that the service will be established during the course of next year.

It will be a great advance, that in Grade 11 all of our children will have information about 36 institutions and the hundreds and hundreds of courses available, including all the facilities that may be there. So I look forward to a debate on this.

I end by saying I am confident that the amending Bill, together with other processes that are in place to implement the national plan for higher education, moves us ever closer to the goal of establishing a single national co-ordinator for the higher education system that is affordable, of high quality and responsive to the human resource and knowledge needs of South Africa. [Applause.]

Mr D M KGWARE: Madam Chair, hon Minister, hon members, distinguished guests from the provinces, the National Plan for Higher Education announced in February 2001 noted that the victory over the apartheid state in 1994 set policy-makers in spheres of public life the mammoth task of overhauling the social, political, economic and cultural institutions of South Africa to bring them in line with the imperative of the new democratic order.

The vision for transformation of the higher education system was articulated in the third White Paper on education, the Programme for Transformation of Higher Education 1997. Central to this vision was the establishment of a single national co-ordinated system which would meet the learning needs of our citizens, black and white, women and the disabled.

Our ANC-led Government has given an overwhelming mandate to excavate our higher education system from its apartheid-induced depths and elevate it to the desired levels of sustainability.

So what is the situation at some of our institutions of higher learning? Firstly, it is common knowledge that we have inherited a higher education system fraught with mismanagement and corruption. In addition, we have institutions that are enormously underdeveloped on the one hand, and enormously overdeveloped on the other. Teaching levels and the quality of research at some institutions are poor.

We have discovered that some institutions cannot even provide enrolment figures for the past three years. Moreover, the drop-out rate at both historically black and historically white universities is unacceptably high and of serious concern to Government. Another irrationality originating from the past is the fact that our technikons were never founded to do research.

Secondly, and importantly, the Ministry’s proposal for restructuring and transformation, which was approved by Cabinet in May this year, may lead the way to a higher education system that ensures equity, increases access, builds research capacity and brings the present academic culture in line with that of the vision and values of a nonracial, nonsexist, democratic South Africa.

These proposals are paramount if we are to realise our objective of a critical mass of black intellectuals to contribute to the development of our broad skills base of qualified professionals, which is central to our human resource development strategy, and more importantly, is critical to the success of the New Partnership for Africa’s Development.

The 36 higher learning institutions inherited from the past are all South African institutions. They must be embraced as such, transformed where necessary and put to work on behalf of all South Africans. In the words of the national working group, they should be fit for their purpose.

It is for this reason that the Higher Education Amendment Bill is before this House today. It seeks to clarify the legal implications and provide the legal framework for the entire restructuring and transformation exercise. It also introduces technical amendments to the Higher Education Act with regard to labour relations, as has already been mentioned, in terms of the rights and obligations of employees and merged institutions as new employers. The Bill clarifies the rules and regulations pertaining to the conduct of students and academic programmes.

More importantly, the imperative for higher education institutions of learning to prosper is the need for good governance. It is the fundamental principle that translates into academic excellence, public accountability and financial sustainability. In this respect the Bill provides for an increase in the size of interim councils, namely from the present five members to a minimum of seven and a maximum of nine members. This amendment seeks to ensure a broader pool of expertise for the attainment of the aforementioned objectives, which is quite frankly absent in a number of our institutions.

In conclusion, the ANC-led Government is committed to pushing back the frontiers of social engineering of the past. We will continue to lay the foundations from which higher education will contribute critically to the reconstruction and development of our country and that of the continent in the twenty-first century. We support the Bill.

Mr N M RAJU: Madam Chair, the hon the Minister, hon special delegates, hon colleagues, the Bill seeks to clarify and bring legal certainty to issues on which the Higher Education Act, Act 101 of 1997, is currently silent or ambiguous. These include transitional arrangements relating to academic programmes offered by institutions prior to a merger, labour relations - the amendment seeks to make it clear that all contracts of employment will automatically be transferred by law to the new institution - and clarity on the authority to take the decision to merge and to give a name and physical location to the new institution.

The Bill further provides for changes in the size of councils and institutional forums, and the appointment of an administrator when it is deemed that the council of a higher education institution has resigned. The administrator will take over effective government of the council.

The Higher Education Amendment Bill thus amends the principal Act to provide for consequential matters arising out of declarations and mergers of public higher education institutions. The hon the Minister’s task in re- engineering the landscape of higher education institutions in South Africa has the full support of my party. However, the hon the Minister has been the target of some unfair criticism from the unlikeliest quarters. For instance, certain black academics have criticised these attempts at mergers; worse, certain black journalists as well.

To his credit, the hon Minister has discharged his duties towards the transformation of higher learning institutions with steadfast commitment and we applaud his efforts. The DP has no hesitation in supporting the Bill. [Applause.]

Mnr F ADAMS: Geagte Voorsitter, Ministers en lede, die Nuwe NP ondersteun die Wysingswetsontwerp op Hoër Onderwys. Die doelwitte van die wetsontwerp is baie duidelik: om te verseker dat programme wat deur instellings aangebied is voor ‘n samesmelting voortgesit word na die voormelde samesmelting; om te verseker dat alle dienskontrakte outomaties volgens wet oorgedra word na die nuwe instelling; om a maksimum ledetal vir ‘n universiteit- of technikonraad te bepaal; en om uit te klaar wanneer ministeriële goedkeuring nodig is ten opsigte van lenings deur hoër onderwysinstellings.

Ek wil net die volgende opmerkings maak. Geen samesmelting sal slaag as dit nie die goedkeuring van al die betrokkenes geniet nie. Taalpatrone moet vasgestel word deur taaloudits voordat ‘n finale besluit oor samesmelting geneem word.

Ons wil graag aankondig dat die Nuwe NP die wetsontwerp steun. (Translation of Afrikaans speech follows.)

[Mr F ADAMS: Chairperson, Ministers and members, the New NP supports the Higher Education Amendment Bill. The aims of the Bill are very clear: to ensure that programmes offered by institutions before a merger will continue after the proposed merger; to ensure that all service contracts automatically be carried over to the new institution according to law; to determine the maximum number of members for a university or technikon board; and to get clearance when ministerial approval is needed in terms of loans by higher education institutions.

I would just like to make the following remarks. No merger will succeed if it does not carry the approval of all parties concerned. Language patterns should be established through language audits before a final decision regarding merging can take place. I would like to announce that the New NP supports the Bill.]

Nkk J N VILAKAZI: Ngiyabonga Sihlalo nendlu yonke, mhlonishwa Ngqongqoshe nabo bonke abakhona. Ngiyanibingelela nonke.

Okokuqala nje namhlanjena nje sicabanga ukuthi lo mthetho lo okukhulunywa ngawo osezithebeni, ubaluleke ngendlela emangalisayo. Imfundo yezinga eliphakeme ibalulekile kuwo wonke umuntu. Ikakhulu kubantwana bethu abakhulayo.

Angizokwanda ngamazwi amaningi, sebekhulumile, nami ngiyavumelana nakho konke abakushoyo. Engingakusho nje ukuthi umuntu ohlala futhi ophila kuleli zwe laseSouth Africa wazi kahle ukuthi imfundo okukhulunywa ngayo namhlanje inezinkinga ezingakanani, ikakhulu kubantu abanjengami nje abavela ekuhluphekeni.

Siyazi ukuthi imfundo beyiphethwe kanjani ngesikhathi esingaphambili. Umhlonishwa uNgqongqoshe uyazama ukuthi imfundo ifanelane nesikhathi esiphila kuso, kuwo wonke umuntu ophila kuleli zwe. Kodwa mhlonishwa Ngqongqoshe nakhu okusanyomfa nje kancane. Inkinga yokuxhasa intsha yethu ehlose ukufunda. Uthola ukuthi umntwana uhlakaniphile uphase kahle kodwa manje uvela emndenini ophansi, kutholakale ukuthi uxhaso lukhishiwe kodwa abalutholi abantwana. Lokhu sibona engathi kuyinkinga.

Uma kuvulwa nje amanyuvesi namaThekhinikhoni, behla benyuka abantwana abanye baze baphele amandla bahlale emakhaya bangabe besafunda baze bahlaselwe izinkinga, bathole nalezi zifo eziningi eziqeda intsha yethu. Ngakho-ke impela siyacela sengathi uxhaso lungaba khona futhi lube- transparent. Kungabi yinto nje engabonakali. Abantwana uma belufuna uxhaso, kungabantwana abakhuthele, abahlakaniphile, baluthole ngaphandle kwezinkinga. Siyazi sonke ukuthi abazali ezindaweni ikakhulukazi lapho ngivela khona kwaZulu, abasebenzi. Imisebenzi ayikho. Izingane azikwazi ukuqhubeka nemfundo ngaphandle kwemali nemisebenzi nokunye.

Okunye mhlawumbe engingakusho nje okuncane ngingakahlali phansi, uguquko olubonakalayo ukuthi alukho kahle hle ezindaweni lezi ezabe ziphethwe abamhlophe. Okusho ukuthi kuyothatha isikhathi.

Bayazithatha bona izingane ezixubile zonke izinhlanga ngiyavuma, kodwa kusekhona lokho ukuthi akukakabi bikho kahle ukuhoshelana ukuthi abantwana bafunde kahle ngokukhululeka.

Mhlawumbe futhi okunye okuba yinkinga kodwa engibona umnyango kaNgqongqoshe uyilungisa, yilena yolimi. Njengoba ngimi lapha ngikhuluma nje sengithole izincomo eziningi kabi ngaphandle. Kuthiwa awu siyajabula uyaye ukhulume sizwe, siyaye sikuzwe ukhuluma. Lokho kuyaye kungithokozise impela yingakho nje sengithi phambili ngolimi lwami impela ngizokhuluma ngalo noma ngabe kuthiwani. Ngoba ngiyazithola izincomo.

Esokugcina siqhamuka kuProf. Marivate naye engcoma esho ethi awu siyakuzwa impela kusho ukuthi uya-promotha izilimi lezi esifuna ukuthi ziqhubeke lapho, futhi ikakhulu-ke thina ngoba sisebenza lapha kwi-NCOP. Ngakho-ke ulimi luyokhulula abantwana ekutheni bathola njalo ophesenti abangabonakali abacimezile. Njalo ezethu izingane kodwa abanye bathole laphaya phezulu. Ulimi phela ngoba abanye bafunda ngolimi lwabo abalujwayele. Laba abethu bafunda njalo ngokuciciyela. Njengoba lufakwa nje siyethemba ukuthi zizokhululeka izingane.

Nikeza umuntu ulimi lwakhe uyobe umnikeze inkululeko engaphezu kwezinto zonke. Ngakho-ke siyathokoza kakhulu sithi uyazama. Thina beNkatha siyakusekela Ngqongqoshe. Siyavuma ukuthi uyazama impela umsebenzi wakho uyabonakala. Siyasaphotha, siyavumelana, sikusekela ngokukhulu. Sengathi kungaqhubeka kuye phambili. Ngiyabonga. (Translation of isiZulu speech follows.)

[Thank you, Chairperson. I would like to greet the honourable House, hon Minister and all the people who are present.

Today we think that the Bill that is on the table is very important. Tertiary education is important to everyone, especially to our children who are still growing.

I will not talk too much. Many people have already spoken and I agree with them. What I can say is those who live in and are citizens of South Africa know very well that the education that we are talking about today has many problems, especially for people like me who have a poor background.

We know how education was administered before. The hon Minister is trying to make education meet the challenges of today for everyone living at this time. But, hon Minister, there is something that is still not right, and that is the problem of financially assisting our students who are serious about studying. One finds that a child is bright and she or he has good grades but comes from a poor family. One finds that sponsorships exist but students cannot access them. We think that this is a problem.

When colleges and universities open, students will go up and down until they despair. Then they will stay at home and be besieged by problems. They will end up getting the diseases that destroy our youth. Therefore, we would like to ask that sponsorships be made available and that this should be transparent. It should not be something invisible. When students who are bright and diligent need sponsorship, they should get it without any problem.

We all know that many parents in places such as KwaZulu-Natal, where I come from, are unemployed. There are no jobs. Children cannot continue their education if their parents do not have money and jobs.

Another small thing that I can mention before I sit down is that change in the traditionally white schools is not satisfactory. This means that it is going to take time. I agree that they accept children of different races. However, there are still problems which cause children to be unable to study freely. Another problem that I see that the Minister’s department is rectifying, is that of language. As I am standing here, I have received a number of compliments from people outside. People are saying: We are happy that you speak the language that we understand.'' This makes me very happy and that is why I sayforward with my language’’. I will use it no matter what because I get compliments.

The last compliment I received came from Prof Marivate. She appreciated the fact that I speak these languages, because it means that I am out there promoting these languages that we are developing. This is more important, especially for us, because we work here in the NCOP. Language will liberate children from getting bad marks, which always happens to our children while others get high marks. Our children always pass with difficulty. As the language policy is implemented, I hope that children will be liberated. When one gives a language to a person, ones gives him superior freedom. Therefore, we are very pleased and we say that the Minister is doing well. We in the IFP support him. We appreciate the fact that he is doing his best. His efforts are remarkable. We support his effort and we wish him further progress.]

Rev M CHABAKU: Chairperson, hon Minister and other Ministers present, hon members, it gives me great pleasure to participate in this important debate today. The transformation and restructuring of the higher education system in its present form has sparked huge debate, controversy and legal threats, not only in the 36 institutions, but also in the wider public domain of alumni and corporate stakeholders.

As is the case in any debate of this nature, some of it was constructive while there was also a fair amount of resistance. The latter we regard as necessary, since it provides us with an opportunity to convince those with narrow, selfish and sectarian interests of our vision to create a higher education system that is rational, seamless and responsive to the needs and challenges of our country and that of the continent, and ultimately of globalisation in the twenty-first century.

Also, we in the ANC believe that these narrow, selfish and sectarian interests should not be allowed to stand in the way of the restructuring process. Our country requires institutions with particular social mandates and a diversity of institutions with different and distinct missions. The heart of the system must be well-resourced, high-quality teaching institutions, oriented towards the production of graduates with the knowledge, skills and competencies to contribute to the economy and social development of our country. Institutions with this mandate must constitute the bedrock of our higher education system.

Yes, these institutions are definitely going to be fewer in number, given that they will be reduced from the present 36 to 21. But this restructuring will address the weaknesses, strengths and technological demands of our country, especially our peri-urban, rural and remote areas.

The Bill before this House today seeks to achieve the above-mentioned objectives through the following amendments to the Higher Education Act. Allow me to dwell on clauses 2, 3 and 4 as they relate to labour, student matters and consequential issues as a result of the declaration of mergers of public higher education institutions. These amendments are necessary to bring legal certainty to issues on which the Act is currently silent or ambiguous.

The amendments include transitional arrangements relating to, for example, the academic programmes offered by institutions prior to a merger and incorporation or declaration. Provision is made to enable these programmes to be offered by the new institution under the same rules applicable to the old institutions until the new council amends such programmes.

Clauses 6, 7 and 14 reduce the number of members from the internal constituencies and determine the maximum membership of each council. At present many public higher education institutions have large and clumsy councils, and this amendment will ensure streamlining of such councils.

Clause 8 clarifies the position of the Minister in terms of the approval of borrowing by these institutions, because the current provisions are interpreted in more ways than one. We welcome this, since some institutions have displayed sheer disregard for public funds, and have incurred huge debts because of this.

Clauses 9 and 13 extend the power of the Minister to make regulations. These amendments seek to ensure that policies are contained in the regulations to ensure uniformity across the higher education spectrum, meaning private and public higher education.

In conclusion, transformation and restructuring of the higher education landscape and its entrenched culture is inevitable, given the country’s demographics. Moreover, the demand for equity, increased access, human resource development, improved quality and the building of our intellectual leadership are the realities facing us. The Bill before us therefore represents a watershed in the sense that it will enable us to engage these demands in a forthright manner.

To give members a typical example: in the Free State the community leaders continue to make meaningful contributions to the University of the Free State because the university itself went to Qwaqwa to give community leaders there a forum on the incorporation of the University of Qwaqwa with the University of the Free State. The uniqueness of the Qwaqwa university is to be preserved, enriched - both academically and financially - and utilised to greater extent by the community where it is situated. The University of the Free State has to give up some of its traditions that were exclusively for one ethnic group. It is with great excitement that the university is now acknowledging that it is multi-ethnic in its student body and faculty. The institutions have planned to share more of their resources to enable the Qwaqwa university to offer a wider diversity in the fields of education and training. Both these institutions of learning and training auger well for the future. They remain uniquely Free State institutions, while they maintain international standards, even for our neighbouring countries and abroad.

More give-and-take is promised and must be implemented expeditiously. In the land of the birth of the oldest political party in the country - I mean the ANC - there is firm support for the Bill. We concur. [Applause.]

The MINISTER OF EDUCATION: Madam Chairperson, it is very pleasant, as some of us retire for the vacation and the break, that goodwill has broken out in this House. It is remarkable. I will leave tonight with the highest pleasant feelings, and I can therefore say one or two things that are meant to assist.

A very famous antifascist poet, Bertolt Brecht, wrote a lovely poem, A Tribute to the Soldier:

When the battle of the mountains is over, the battle of the plains begins.

We have finished the battle of the mountains with our extraordinary constitutional arrangement of 1994, and the real battle of the plains, of how we can change, adapt, renew, develop, bring new traditions in, contest traditions and work out new solutions, now begins. That is why I was very struck by the Rev Chabaku’s intervention, because, in fact, it shows great understanding. She pitches to the Free State, the crucible of apartheid. And now we find a Free Stater being very proud of what is happening as they change and renew the institution.

One of the things we have already done is to transfer the Qwaqwa component of the University of the North to the University of the Free State. Of course, there are problems with it. But problems have to be dealt with on the basis that South Africans are trying to arrive at common solutions, recognising, of course, where the differential lies. All I can say is that it is not everybody who is opposed to the proposals on the grounds of self- interest. Not everybody is doing it because they are conservative and do not wish to change. There are genuine anxieties and difficulties. As I have said earlier, I will address all of these. Nothing is cast in stone. It cannot be, otherwise there could not be a dialogue about the needs and other things.

But extraordinary things happen. The University of Potchefstroom has agreed to merge with the University of the North West. What kind of development can one say this is? The imagination boggles at the idea of the University of Potchefstroom merging with the University of the North West. They both agreed it is in the best interests of the region and, of course, of South Africa itself. So we will look at everything and attend to every matter raised.

Can I also say to my sister, hon Vilakazi, who comes from my home province, that I entirely agree with her, but the access to education is very important. There are problems, not in higher education alone. How do we keep the poor young people at school when they are 17 or 18 years old? They are really adults. No one whose family earns less than R90 000 - which may go up to R100 000 - can ever say I cannot go to higher education, provided they have the results. We are targeting the poor, including Afrikaners from the southern suburbs of Johannesburg - that is very important - and poor Indians, because up to now about 90% has gone to Africans, and R232 000 has gone to higher education through the financial aid scheme.

No one whose family earns less than R90 000 a year is ever precluded from access to higher education. It is our job, therefore, to ensure that they know about it. That is why a national information system will be set up to convey the information. There are not only scholarships from the provinces and faculties, but there are hundreds of scholarships given by benefactors in their wills and trustees. We want to bring that all together, and get it into the hands of approximately 700 000 Grade 11 students in our country, so they can make real choices.

So the real problem is sustaining them when they are about 16, 17 and 18 years of age, when they are in high school. That is the real problem.

The second problem is, of course, the question of acceptability in institutions. At nearly every institution, apart from the University of Stellenbosch, the majority of students are now black. It is a remarkable change in 10 years. There has been this extraordinary access. But the real problem is: How many students come out at the end of the cycle? The answer is 15%. The through-put rate is 15%. This is astonishingly low. In other words, thousands of young people are frustrated in their intentions and are never able to fulfil themselves, for various reasons. One of the reasons, I think, apart from financial, is, in fact, the disappointment with the courses they are doing and the kind of relationship they have with the institution.

We cannot afford a loss of 85% of our input, and that is why we must look at the national plan for higher education, and not only with regard to mergers, change and the transfer of topics and subjects. We must look at what happens in the institutions. That is why we want to start a debate on this. Therefore it is important that we recognise, as my sister does too, that language is very important.

Can I end therefore, because I will put this in the library of Parliament. But to judge from the newspapers, nothing happened yesterday - apart from Die Burger, which led with this story. There is a national framework - not the actual plan, but the framework for higher education language. And we say for the first time, which is a historic occasion, that we carry out the constitutional prescription about multilingualism. For the first time we can say that there must be parity of esteem for all our languages in South Africa. For the first time we say we must move our policies towards a proper understanding that the indigenous languages must be built up, developed, and that it should be possible, in the long term, for instruction to be given in one or two indigenous languages, as proposed by the Council for Higher Education, and accepted by the department and the Cabinet. It is a wonderful development, because we are then giving esteem and support for the indigenous languages.

It is very important that our institutions offer multilingualism and, of course, foreign languages, not because of our diplomats who are going to work elsewhere, not only for commerce, but simply for intellectual development. It is good that our young people should have access to foreign languages. Traditionally it is French and German. Now it could be Portuguese, Swahili I hope, Arabic, etc. And if we can get the money from the Chinese government, we introduce Chinese. It is good that our institutions should have that.

I say that the importance of this is that we extend language requirements in school. We recognise the position of English and Afrikaans as languages of instruction in higher education. But as an important departure, we should develop the other African languages by having chairs in these languages, and giving scholarship assistance in these languages. Can I say that with regard to all 11 languages, hardly any student now, very few, are studying these languages as artistic, cultural and scientific languages.

The number studying Afrikaans as a subject at Stellenbosch, Potchefstroom and the Free State has fallen dramatically. The number studying English as an honours subject has fallen dramatically. As for the African languages, members know what has happened up to now. We cannot get good teachers if the languages are studied by themselves. Where will our writers come from? Where will our poets, and cultural people with imagination come from unless the languages are studied? Part of the plan here is therefore to develop interest in all the languages in higher education. Our long-term view is to ensure that at least two universities will offer African language instruction, one in Nguni and the other in Sotho languages.

Finally I come to the importance of Afrikaans, because this is part of the larger language issue. We argue that in fact Afrikaans is part of our national assets in South Africa, and we have adopted the view of the Gerwel report that this national asset must be succoured, built up and retained. We argue that Afrikaans as a medium of academic expression and communication in higher education must not only be acknowledged, but developed.

We argue that in accordance with the vice chancellors of the five former Afrikaans universities who spoke to Mr Mandela, and then Mr Mbeki, the President now, that no institution wants to teach exclusively in Afrikaans. The Gerwel report makes it quite clear too that none of the vice chancellors wants this. I say this very carefully because in the next few months we must adopt this policy in such a way that we do not use language as a divisive factor. None of them - and they are directly involved - wants it exclusively, for the simple reason that none of the five institutions are exclusively teaching in Afrikaans, none of them, without an exception.

What we are saying therefore is that an institution could have Afrikaans as a primary language of instruction - which is a remarkable understanding by the Government - but not as a sole language of instruction. No institution has that in South Africa. We cannot therefore turn the clock back, because there are strategic areas, such as health sciences and engineering for example, which must be accessible to all our people.

It is quite clear, as Mr Mandela said when he got an honorary degree at Stellenbosch, that the issue is not the survival of Afrikaans. The issue is whether language can be a bar to access, not affording proper access to institutions, which, remember, are national institutions. They do not belong to the Western Cape. That is why it is very important that we should not ride horses that become very unruly horses, that will cause a great deal of damage. I suggest to members that we will put a copy of this policy, both the press statements, a copy of the Gerwel report and the Council for Higher Education report in the library by tomorrow morning, so that members can read it for themselves.

Thank you very much, Madam Chairperson, for your forbearance, and thank you to members of the House for their support. I look forward to further such creative debates in the new year. May you have a very good constituency period and about one week off during Christmas. [Applause.]

Debate concluded.

Bill, subject to proposed amendments, agreed to in accordance with section 75 of the Constitution.

 ADMINISTRATIVE ADJUDICATION OF ROAD TRAFFIC OFFENCES AMENDMENT BILL

           (Consideration of Bill and of Report thereon.)

The MINISTER OF TRANSPORT: Chairperson, permanent members, delegates and friends, I rise to introduce the Administrative Adjudication of Road Traffic Offences Amendment Bill of 2002.

I want to say that there are too many people who drive recklessly or negligently or speed on our roads, who drive without a valid driver’s licence, often with vehicles that are not roadworthy. Too many commit traffic offences of all kinds - some serious, and others not so serious. Traffic violations are on the increase, and it is estimated that 80% of all notices of traffic contraventions - often referred to as traffic tickets - and even summonses are ignored by offenders. Many of them are repeat offenders. Some boast that they tear up these documents, because nothing will happen to them. Hundreds of warrants of arrest are issued; many of them are not executed. In addition, our court system is overloaded. Our courts have to prioritise, and in the process road traffic offences find themselves at the bottom of the list. The net result is a situation in which thousands of road users all over the country believe that they can commit traffic violations with impunity and get away with it, and that they can ignore traffic tickets and summonses and get away with it.

We plan to change all this. We are putting into place a system which will make offenders pay, and where they ignore processes, they will pay heavily. Repeat offenders will risk having their driver’s licences suspended or cancelled. These results will be achieved through the implementation of the Administrative Adjudication of Road Traffic Offences Act.

I am very much aware of the fact that provinces and some local authorities have indeed tightened up law enforcement, and many of the defects to which I have referred are being addressed. Many road users have been stopped at road blocks and even arrested for outstanding warrants and fines. This will continue. I recognise and acknowledge all these efforts. But it is also clear that we need to take drastic action and intervene to create a culture of law compliance. There will only exist a pervasive culture of law compliance if there is effective law enforcement now. That is why Parliament passed the Administrative Adjudication of Road Traffic Offences Act in 1998. I report to hon members today that we have spent considerable time and effort to put into place the machinery to implement the Administrative Adjudication Road Traffic Offences Act, or AARTO, which is a new concept for South Africa. It is currently planned to bring AARTO into operation by mid-2003 - I hope it will be a little bit earlier - when the computer systems will be ready and in place.

Let me remind hon members of some of the essential elements of the AARTO system: Firstly, it will put into place a system which will end the clogging up of our courts with traffic offences. Traffic offences will only go to court where the seriousness of the offence so requires, or for certain other limited reasons, like if the infringer chooses to go to court.

Secondly, the Administrative Adjudication of Road Traffic Offences Act provides for the establishment of a road traffic infringement agency through which traffic offences will be administratively adjudicated. The objectives of the agency are: to administer a procedure to discourage the contravention of road traffic law and to support the adjudication of infringements; to enforce penalties imposed against persons contravening road traffic laws; to provide specialised prosecution support services; and to undertake community education and community awareness programmes in order to ensure that individuals understand their rights, obligations and options. Systems used in other countries to collect fines were researched before the South African AARTO was developed. It is noteworthy that the debt collecting agencies overseas achieve success rates in collecting fines of over 90%. The concept is so successful that the collection of other outstanding debt is also done through such agencies.

Thirdly, the idea is not to make lots of money for local, provincial or national authorities or Government. The idea is to compel road users to stop violating the law. We have far too many road accidents and far too many people who die on our roads. We must and will intervene drastically to make our roads safer and reduce deaths on our roads. We can do it and we will do it. That is the result we want to achieve. Imposing penalties, including fines, is a means to achieve that objective. If we reach a situation where there is voluntary law compliance and there is no longer a need to impose fines, we will all celebrate. And I hope we will get there soon.

Fourthly, there will be proper record-keeping of previous traffic offences. That has not been the case until now. I think many of our hon members will know from their own experiences that each traffic offence is invariably treated as a first offence. Each offender is treated as a first offender. That is going to come to an end.

Fifthly, the new system will help to eliminate fraud and corruption because of the way the administrative adjudication system will work.

Sixthly, currently there are great disparities in fines for the same offence in different parts of the country, and sometimes even in the same court. The new system will help to promote uniformity with the necessary flexibility where appropriate, because our courts do have a discretion when it comes to imposing fines where matters reach the courts.

Seventhly, the new system will penalise drivers and operators who are guilty of infringements through the imposition of demerit points leading possibly to the suspension of licences and the suspension or cancellation of professional driving permits or operating permits. We have gone some way with a lot of preparation in laying the foundation for the implementation of the system. Of course, the imposition of these demerit points is in addition to the fines which offenders have to pay.

Eighthly, the system will reward future law-abiding behaviour by reducing demerit points imposed on offenders if infringements or offences are not committed over specified periods, in other words, where the driver has changed his or her views. Should I also say her views''? But generally it ishis’’.

Ninthly, the system provides for reduced payments where there is timeous compliance with notices and warnings.

Tenthly, AARTO will undertake community education and community awareness programmes to ensure that individuals understand their rights, their obligations and options.

Eleventhly, the system will ensure that serious offences are dealt with effectively in our courts and that they receive the necessary attention. They will produce the desired results by providing specialised prosecution support services.

Why the amending Bill? I want to say, first of all, that the discussion on the need for amendments within the Department of Transport and with the provincial governments has not delayed implementation. The need for such amendments became evident in the process of planning implementation and doing the necessary preparatory work to introduce the new system. It must be remembered, as I indicated, that this is an entirely new system for South Africa.

I want to mention a few important elements in the Bill. Firstly, a definition was inserted for ``a representations officer’’. Secondly, a credit card driving licence will be acceptable identification. Thirdly, the amendment brings municipal laws within the ambit of the Act, and not only national and provincial laws. Fourthly, at an institutional level the number of persons serving on the board is increased from five to seven and greater flexibility is created to appoint persons from both the public and private sectors. Fifthly, the Bill makes provision for the Minister, after consultation with the registrar, to make recommendations to the Minister of Justice for the appointment of sheriffs and deputy sheriffs to ensure the proper performance of the agency’s functions. In the original Act it is only the registrar who made the recommendation. Sixthly, as a result of representations received, the period within which offenders must pay fines is changed from 28 days to 32 days. Seventhly, the provisions relating to the attachment of property to pay outstanding fines and fees have been clarified.

In conclusion, whilst the process of effecting the amendments contained in the Bill is going on, we have not stopped work in preparing for the implementation of the AARTO Act. I am convinced that the amendments will improve the law and will help to make the law more effective. I am also convinced that the implementation of AARTO will begin a new era in road behaviour in South Africa. Its impact may not be immediate, but I am confident that it will be speedy.

Finally, I would like to thank the social services committee and its chairperson for the consideration of the Bill and the detailed attention which is normally given to my Bills, as has also happened in this instance. I say thank you to them and I look forward to contributions from members. [Applause.]

Nksz P C P MAJODINA: Mhlali-ngaphambili, lunga lamalunga, ozolileyo nofikelelekayo uMphatiswa wezoThutho, amalungu eBhunga leSizwe lamaPhondo, abathunywa abachongwe kumaphondo awo ukuze baze kuchophela le ngxoxo, ndiya bulisa egameni loYise, eloNyana neloMoya oyiNgcwele. Ngawo loo magama mathathu awenza iANC.

Ndithabatha inkxaxheba kule ngxoxo apho kuyilwa khona uMthetho osisihlomelo sokuqinisa ingalo yomthetho kwizohlwayo zolwaphulo mthetho ezindleleni. Ewe kambe ndithetha ndiwuxhasa lo Mthetho oYilwayo kuba unika uRhulumente igunya lokutshutshisa abaphuli mthetho ngokude bangenelwe nangunothimba.

Lo Mthetho oYilwayo uzama ukuncedana nabo abangathabathi ntweni ukuze benze amalungiselelo okuba bazihlawule ngezavenge izohlwayo abazifumeneyo. Loo nto yenziwa nguRhulumente obakhatheleleyo nobaziyo abantu.

Lo Mthetho oYilwayo ukwa qinisa amandla kuMphathiswa wezoThutho ukuze achonge amalungu ebhodi abe sixhenxe. Abanini zithuthi baza kunyanzelwa ngulo Mthetho oYilwayo ukuba nabo bamkele izohlwayo ngesimo seenqwelo zabo kuba ngaphambili bekusa kunikwa intlawulo kulowo ubhexesha inqwelo, ingeyiyo eyakhe. Umenzi mali asinde yena kuba engabhexeshi ngelo xesha. Uthi ke lo Mthetho oYilwayo “nanga amasi abekwe elangeni”. Ukuba unenqwelo kufuneka uqinisekise ukuba iziqhoboshi namavili alungele indlela. Umqhubi uyakugwetyelwa okulingene yena. Asisayi kudibana nabaqhubi beba ngoo ``wazithwal izono Yesu Kristu’’ ngelo xesha eseGetsemane. Abenzi bemali bafumane imali kodwa abanye abantu behlupheka.

Kuya nyanzeleka ukuba siyazise le Ndlu okokuba xa ngaba kukho mqhubo wenqwelo okhoyo apha ophethe iqwaku qwaku lelayisenisi liya phelelwa ngomhla wama 28 kuFebruwari ka 2000. Emva koko asisayi kuba nalusini ngomntu oqhuba engenalo ikhadi lokuqhuba … Ndinalo ke mna njengosihlalo wale komiti yezothutho … Kwaye ke baza kuthothoza kwezimnyama izisele. Abo abaphula umthetho rhoqo de kube kumatyeli athile, lo Mthetho oYilwayo ugunyazisa ukuba siyithabathe le layisenisi ngoba akakwazi kuziphatha ezindleleni, kwaye ubeka ubomi bantu esichengeni ngenxa yobuxelegu bobuxaxavithi bakhe. Uza kohlwaywa ade ohlwaywe nangamanqin’ enyathi.

Kukho isicelo, esiphuma kuluntu jikelele, sokuba eli sebe lakhe uMphathiswa maliphume iphulo lifundise abantu ngemithetho epasileyo yezothutho. Eli sebe malikhuphe namaphetshana acacisayo ngamalungelo ababhexeshi, abakhweli beenqwelo, abanini zinqwelo kunye namagosa ezendlela ukuze lo Mthetho oYilwayo ungasetyenziswa ngolunya nangobuxelegu ukutshitshisa abantu kuba umntu othile ekhupha isixhiba. Nabo oomasipala banoxanduva, ke, lokuba bafakela imitshini yobuchwepheshe ukuze inxibelelane nekazwelonke, khon’ ukuze lowo othe wamosha eMpumalanga, athwayize, aye kungena eFree State, aye kungena eMpuma Koloni, sibe nokumbambele wonke lamatyala alapha elizweni.

Kodwa ke olo xanduva olunikwa oomasipala luxanduva olungakhange lunikwe nkxaso ngokwemali. Abakhumshileyo bathi ke yi ``unfunded mandate’’ andikhumshanga ke mna. Kukho isicelo sokuba iibholorho zokukala ubungakanani nobunzima bomthwalo mazenziwe zibe kwindawo apho uninzi lwabantu lusukela khona, khon’ ukuze singaxhomekeki kwitikiti endleleni, kuba xa isithuthi sinomthwalo ongaphaya komlinganiselo size sifike sinikwe itikiti siphinde sihambe, asibancedisi abantu abakhweleyo apho ngoba basaya kusweleka ngokusindwa kwesiya sithuthi.

Le yingxoxo-mpikiswano yokugqibela ebandakanya eli Sebe lezoThutho, siza kuya kusebenza emakhaya, siza kuya kwiholide. Kuya nyanzeleka ke ukuba sibacele abaqhubi ukuba maze baqhube bafike bekhuselekile emakhaya.

Okokugqibela, ndithi kuMphathiswa: masisenze sibe qatha isigwebo salowo onyobisayo nalowo ovuma ukunyotywa endleleni. [Kwaqhwatywa.] (Translation of isiXhosa paragraphs follows.)

[Ms P C P MAJODINA: Mr Chairperson, a kind person among the kind ones, a peaceful and accessible Minister of Transport, members of the NCOP, special delegates appointed in their respective provinces to take part in this debate, I greet you in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. It is those three words that constitute the ANC.

I am participating in this debate in which a Bill that is an amendment is created to strengthen the laws on punishment for traffic offences. Of course, I speak in support of this Bill, because it gives Government the authority to prosecute offenders to the extent that assets may be even be seized.

This Bill attempts to help the poorest of the poor to be able to make arrangements for the payment of their fines in instalments. That is being done by a Government which cares for and knows the people.

This Bill strengthens the authority of the Minister to appoint seven members to the board. Vehicle owners are also going to be compelled, through this Bill, to take responsibility of fines for the condition of their vehicles, because previously drivers were fined even if they did not own the vehicle. The one who profits goes unscathed because he was not the driver at the time. This Bill says: ``Let us see now’’. If you own a vehicle, you must ensure that the brakes and tyres are roadworthy. The driver is going to be punished for his own wrongdoing. We are not going to find drivers taking the rap for owners, like Jesus in Gethsemane, when the ones who make money are increasing their income, whilst others are poor.

It is imperative that we tell this House, if there is a driver here who has an old, useless licence, it has expired on 28 February 2000. After that we are not going to be lenient on someone driving without a card licence … [Interjections] … as the Chairperson of this committee, I do have one … and they are going to languish in dark cells. For those who break the law often and a few times, this Bill authorises us to suspend the licence because the owner cannot behave him or herself on the roads and place the lives of others at risk because of his or her recklessness. He or she will be punished very severely.

There is a request from the general public that this department embarks on a campaign to educate it on traffic laws passed. The department must issue pamphlets that explain the rights of drivers, passengers in vehicles, vehicle owners as well as traffic officers so that this Bill is not used maliciously and carelessly because some people may be taking revenge in prosecuting people. Municipalities also have an obligation to acquire technology in order to be linked to the national department, so that an individual who offends in Mpumalanga and wanders off to the Free State or the Eastern Cape can be arrested for all these offences committed nationally.

However, that responsibility which is entrusted to municipalities has not been given financial support. Those who speak English refer to it as an ``unfunded mandate’’. I’m not good at speaking English.

There is a request that bridges for weighing the loads on vehicles should be constructed at places from which the majority of the people come, so that we do not rely on spot fines, because, if a vehicle with a load that is over the limit arrives and is issued with a spot fine, we are not helping the people on board the vehicle, as they may still die as a result of the vehicle not being able to carry the heavy load.

This is the last debate involving the Department of Transport. We are going to work in our respective home towns, we will be going on holiday. It is imperative that we request drivers to drive to and arrive at home safely.

Lastly, I am saying to Minister: Let’s stiffen the sentences on those who bribe and the ones who allow themselves to be bribed on the road. [Applause.]]

Dr P J C NEL: Madam Chairperson, as a result of the high accident rate on South African roads, road traffic safety is an issue of serious concern.

Road traffic management comprises many functional areas, of which law enforcement is one of the most important functions. The effectiveness of law enforcement depends heavily on the successful adjudication of traffic offences. Unfortunately, at the moment there is a continuous downward trend in the finalisation of traffic offences, and there is reason to believe that the downward trend will continue in the future, resulting in an ever- decreasing rate of successful prosecution of traffic offences. It will appear as if, at the moment, the adjudication of traffic offences is not the highest priority in the judicial system. There is also no proper record- keeping of previous traffic offences.

To improve the current state of affairs, the Administrative Adjudication of Road Traffic Offences Act, better known as the AARTO Act was enacted in

1. The Act has established procedures for the effective and prompt adjudication of road traffic infringements. It also makes provision for the establishment of the road traffic infringement agency to support the judicial authorities and to undertake the administration of the adjudication process. The Act also provides for the imposition of a system of a demerit points to penalise drivers and operators who are guilty of offences. If the proposed allowable number of 12 points is exceeded, it may result in the suspension and even the cancellation of driver’s licences, professional driving permits or operating permits.

Demerit points will be applicable to all traffic offences. But law-abiding behaviour will also be rewarded as demerit points will diminish over time until they reach zero.

In order to implement the Act, it is now necessary to amend the Act for the second time. Some of the amendments are of a substantive nature. Most, however, are only textual corrections. The hon the Minister and the hon chairperson of the Select Committee on Transport already mentioned most of the more substantive amendments and I am not going repeat them.

I would like to conclude by saying that I realise that the implementation of the the AARTO system is a new concept for South Africans, and that some individuals will find the intervention a bit too drastic. My advise to those people is to go to one of the casualty departments of any big hospital near a highway on a Saturday night, to witness the mutilating effect road accidents have on the bodies of victims, and the devastating effect it has on the lives of families, and the sadness in the eyes of those who have lost their loved ones. Those people will then surely realise that an environment must be created in which it would be too risky for road users not to abide by the traffic rules and not to pay their fines.

The NNP supports the Bill and wishes everybody in the House safe journeys during the festive season. Please arrive alive! [Applause.]

Ms L F SHABALALA (KwaZulu-Natal): Chairperson, hon Minister and hon members, when I thought about this Administrative Adjudication of Road Traffic Offences Amendment Bill, a critical question came to my mind: Is the human being a beast? Does he or she need a law to be legislated and enforced in order to observe any rule? Surely, we really need this amending Bill.

In most cases when we refer to offenders we mean other types of crime by unknown criminals.

Esiteshini somsakazo Ukhozi, namhlanje ekuseni, u-Alex Mthiyane uyichaze kahle le nto ngenkathi ngilalele wathi: Lo mthetho uzochaphazela hhayi nje abantukazana kuphela kodwa izikhulu zezinkampani ezinkulu nezintatheli uqobo. Uthe uma ungaqala ukusebenza namhlanje, njengamanje, bekungaphazamiseka nokusebenza ngisho nasemsakazweni.

Ngakho, ngiyavumelana nozakwethu ukuthi akube nohlelo olunzulu lokufundisa umphakathi ngalo mthetho ngoba akusho ukuthi abantukazana nje kuphela abangazi ngawo kodwa ngisho nabo abasakazi uqobo bayadinga ukufundiswa ze nabo bafundise futhi khona emsakazweni. (Translation of isiZulu paragrahs follows.)

[This morning in the Ukhozi radio station, Alex Mthiyane explained this thing very well when I was tuning in. He said this Bill will affect not only ordinary people but also the big men and women of big companies and even the journalists. He said if it can be implemented today, now, the way the radio operates will be affected.

Therefore, I agree with my colleagues that there should be a serious programme aimed at teaching the public about this legislation because it does not mean that it is only the man in the street who does not understand it. Even the radio announcers need to be taught about it so that they can educate the public on the radio.]

Most drivers exceed the speed limit consciously and then await a ticket or evade paying the fines. I believe that the demerit system will hit a raw nerve. At my age I cannot afford to go back and sit for the learner driver’s examination before going to a driving school. Sengigugile. [I am too old.] [Interjections.]

However, speeding and driving without a driver’s licence cannot be defined in isolation without associating this with the danger to human life and limb. We tend to count accidents by how many people get injured or die, but even just crashes are accidents. They need to be seriously recognised in our road statistics.

Why, as South Africans, do we always think that we are in a hurry? Surely, in a capitalistic world, our minutes and hours are measured against the rand, or the dollar, if one likes, from a taxi driver to a CEO of a giant conglomerate. We get so consumed with what we want to achieve and consolidate materially that we fail to strike a balance so that we think of the other person on the road as well.

Siyathinteka sonke ngoba abathandiweyo bethu bayalimala ezingozini ngenxa yobudedengu babanye abashayeli. [We are all affected because our loved ones get injured in the accidents that are caused by careless drivers.]

It is therefore logical that the demerit system will not affect the poor, individual truck driver who only takes orders but will directly affect the registered owner of the trucking company. However, we have a challenge regarding SADC truck drivers who will not be affected by the demerit system, because overloading is very costly to our roads.

Sengiphetha, ngikholwa ukuthi lo ngumhlangano wokugcina enyakeni sindawonye. Ngifisa sengathi umyalezo wokuphepha ungavuseleleka kula maholidi emphakathini wonke waseNingizimu Afrika, size sibonane futhi ngonyaka ozayo.

Kulabo abazovakashela KwaZulu-Natali - ngicabanga ukuthi iningi lamalungu lizobe liKwaZulu-Natali - ngifuna ukubazisa ukuthi akukashintshi lutho. UmNyango kamphathiswa uComrade Sbu Ndebele usemi lapho ekutheni: Alufakwa, lubuya nodaka! Angazi-ke ukuthi kutolikwa kuthiweni lokho ngesilungu.

Thina-ke, njengesifundazwe saKwaZulu-Natali, siyahambisana nalo mThethosivivinywa wokuchibiyela. [Ihlombe.] (Translation of isiZulu paragraphs follows.)

[In conclusion, I hope that this is our last meeting for this year. I wish the message of safety can be present during these public holidays for all South Africans, until we meet again next year.

To those who will visit KwaZulu-Natal, I think that most of the hon members will be in KwaZulu-Natal. I want to inform them that nothing has changed. The department of comrade Sbu Ndebele still insists on saying: It is a no- go area! I do not know how to translate this into English.

We in the province of KwaZulu-Natal, supports this amending Bill. [Applause.]]

Ms B THOMSON: Chairperson, hon Minister and hon members, it is sheer coincidence that the Administrative Adjudication of Road Offences Amendment Bill is introduced in this House on the eve of the annual December holidays. As the ruling party, we are obviously extremely concerned about the safety of our road users, wherever they might be heading during this period. We therefore consider it important to remind ourselves and the public about the objectives of the Bill.

The effectiveness of law enforcement on our country’s roads depends on, among other things, the effectiveness of the adjudication of traffic offences. However, given the enormous case loads of our judicial system, traffic offences do not exactly feature on the list of priorities of our judicial system, hence the decline in the finalisation of traffic offences. This is of major concern to all of us. Nonetheless, we do have the assurance and evidence from the national Department of Transport which suggests the contrary.

Through the amendment to section 1 of the Act, offenders could have their cases tried not only in the courts but through a less expensive and faster administrative system. It guarantees the offender the constitutional right to have the case heard in a court of law if he or she so wishes and it also provides for a demerit point system. In terms of this amendment, offenders can incur up to four demerit points for a single offence, depending on the seriousness of that offence. The threshold of the system is four demerit points. However, in the case of repeat offenders, a ceiling of 12 demerit points is determined, after which offenders could have their driver’s licences, permits or operator’s cards suspended if they exceed this ceiling.

Ngicabanga ukuthi, njengoba umhlonishwa uDullah eshilo, kuzanywa ukuthi kunqandwe le nto yokuthi kuthi umuntu ngenyanga kaJanuwari mhlawumbe abanjelwe ukushayela edle amponjwana. Kuphinde ngenyanga elandelayo abanjwe futhi eshayela edle wona amponjwana - ngiyethemba ukuthi umhlonishwa u- Ackerman ungilalele. Uma kunjalo, kukhombisa ukungawuhloniphi kakhulu umthetho lokho kuthi umuntu angahlale ebanjelwa into eyodwa ngaso sonke isikhathi. Lowo muntu uzohlangabezana nenkinga yokwephucwa ilayisense njengoba odadewethu sebeshilo futhi nomhlonishwa uNgqongqoshe eshilo. (Translation of isiZulu paragraph follows.)

[I think that, as hon Dullah has said, an attempt is being made to control the habit that every time in January one is arrested for drinking and driving. And the following month the same person will be arrested for the same offence. I hope that hon Ackermann is listening to me. It is like that, it means that there is a serious breaking of the law if a person is always arrested for the same offence. That person might face a problem of having his driver’s licence taken from him as my sisters and the hon Minister have said.]

This Bill will also make provision for offenders who display improvement in their conduct on the road. Demerit points get deducted after a three-month offence-free period.

Lokho kusambhanselo. Kufana nalokho esasikubiza ngombhanselo thina. Ngiyacabanga ukuthi uRaju uzokwazi lokho. Kodwa-ke akasekho umbhanselo manje ngoba usashona. [That is a bonus. It is the same as something that we call a bonus. I think that Mr Raju will know that. But there is no bonus now, it is dead.]

We are also encouraged that the Bill provides for the establishment of a road traffic infringement agency board. This agency will serve as the Administrative Adjudication of Road Offences Amendment Bill’s key implementation instrument. The agency board will ensure that the agency is given capacity and expertise.

Section 12 of the Act is amended to empower the Minister to recommend to the Minister for Justice and Constitutional Development that sheriffs or deputy sheriffs be appointed in order to ensure proper performance of the agency. This includes the power to attach the property of defaulters.

Ngicabanga ukuthi kuzofuneka nalokho sikubeke kakhulu emiqondweni yethu ngoba akuyona into enhle ukuthi umuntu athathelwe izimpahla zakhe kade eseziqoqe iminyaka eminingi bese kuthi ngelanga elilodwa nje zithathwe ngoba ehluleka ukukhokhela amathikithi. (Translation of isiZulu paragraph follows.)

[I think that we should keep that deeply in our minds because it is not a good thing that a person has to lose his clothes after he has used them for years, and then one day those clothes are taken from him because he has failed to pay for his tickets.] In conclusion, it is important to note that we are not dealing with road offences exclusively, but also with sheer criminal mind-sets and generally negative attitudes. We also believe that it will take a long time to address the backlog of negative attitudes among a section of our licensed drivers. Licence suspensions, community service and mandatory retraining for repeat traffic offenders will have a significant effect but it will not come overnight. Hopefully, through the Administrative Adjudication of Road Offences Amendment Bill, Arrive Alive and other agencies we will be able to effect change in attitudes and behaviour.

The ANC supports the Bill. [Applause.]

Rev M CHABAKU: Chairperson, hon Minister, special delegates and hon members who are here, overall the Department of Public Works, Roads and Transport in the Free State provincial government welcomes and appreciates proposed amendments to the Bill, because they will assist the department with an effective system of traffic management.

The Bill, through its proposed amendments, will assist to ensure that loopholes and weaknesses inherent in the principal Act are now addressed. For instance, it will ease the burden imposed on traffic officers who, until this stage, have been forced to fulfil administrative functions in most cases, as opposed to engaging in traffic management and their core functions. It has been a concern of the department that traffic officers spend a great deal of time in courts, as opposed to on the roads where they are needed most.

On the provision of the road traffic infringement agency, a concern was that this would enable an infringer to be accompanied by the issuing authority, but to refer the matter to an agency which would not have a direct knowledge of the relevant merits of the case brought forward. However, the amendment would assist with the accelerated processing of fines, particularly minor fines, thus reducing the burden on our court system, without precluding an infringer from seeking recourse in the courts.

Some of the stakeholders’ submissions raised concern about the high costs of traffic fines imposed on taxi operators, which would, because of the nature of the taxi industry, cause them effectively to go out of business.

The department indicated that the Free State province, compared to other provinces, had the lowest rate of traffic fines and 25% of revenue generated by the department arose from the imposition of fines. The department is of the view that a point must be acknowledged that some discontent is based on the statistical evidence. South African drivers are generally bad drivers who do not show respect for the laws of the road.

In many serious cases high traffic fines have been used as deterrents to minimise serious road offences. However, indications are that in most cases they do not necessarily and effectively deter contravention. Contraveners in most cases get away with murder precisely because of a shortage of traffic personnel, as well as the problem alluded to of traffic officers spending a great deal of time at the courts, thus leaving road infringements unattended to.

It has also come to our attention that traffic fines in the whole of the province are not uniform because they are determined in various municipal magisterial districts. This is in keeping with similar moves at national level. In this regard the department envisages engaging various municipalities in the province.

The department also acknowledges the poor road infrastructure in some parts of the province and feels that it should not be divorced from the entire object of bringing about good management, because it is true, according to some stakeholders, that poor road infrastructure also contributes to substandard conditions of the vehicles on the road, and it particularly affects the taxi operators who are the frequent road users. Therefore, the department is committed to programmes, financially and otherwise, towards the improvement of the road infrastructure.

The demerit system is also viewed by the department as an important inclusion, through which we will close gaps. High fines are to be used as deterrents, and not only to be utilised as punitive measures, but also, as is intended, to reinforce good behaviour on our roads and thus to help change the attitude of many drivers on our roads.

It was further acknowledged that the demerit system requires some public education - particularly in an industry such as the taxi industry, where there is a great number of people who are not necessarily at ease with the intricacies of the demerit system - once the regulations are published. Many of the traffic accidents and offences that occur in the Free State are caused by non-Free Staters as they pass through our province. Hence the national and provincial agencies should work together to ensure smooth traffic on well-maintained roads. Defaulters will now be effectively processed.

The Free State wishes to thank all members of the House for their continued support, co-operation and commitment. This has made us proud that we share in these important efforts to provide a better life for all, especially for the marginalised. Therefore the Free State province endorses this Bill and supports its passage. God bless you all! Be safe! We still need you all in the House and in the country. [Applause.]

Mr N M RAJU: Chairperson, hon Minister, hon special delegates and hon colleagues, it is always an honour to rise after the eloquent and colourful hon Rev Chabaku. I do so with thanks to the duty whip for placing me to follow after the hon Rev Chabaku.

The Bill seeks to amend the Administrative Adjudication of Road Traffic Offences Act so as to regulate the composition of the board; to provide for the appointment of sheriffs by the Minister for Justice and Constitutional Development, in consultation with the Minister of Transport; and to prescribe an extended period for payment of infringement fines, making representations and enforcing orders.

The amendments also ensure that an infringer has to be informed in a prescribed manner if demerit points have been recorded against his or her name, and the prosecutor now has to notify the issuing authority of the reasons if he or she declines to prosecute. Infringers also have the option to pay the fines in one-off payments or make arrangements to pay in instalments, or go to court to finalise matters.

Any legislation proposed to bring sanity to our roads and safety to pedestrians and commuters is very welcome. Yesterday’s headlines screamed that traffic offenders would be taken to the cleaners for ignoring fines imposed, for treating summonses with contempt, etc. The likelihood of culprits losing vehicles and other property is indeed a savoury prospect. We welcome the Minister’s plans to rid our roads of these vermin.

The pervasive culture of noncompliance must be met head on, no pun intended. Road traffic violations are increasing in geometric progressing. The culprits must be apprehended and sent to Coventry. There should be no place in our communities for irresponsible drivers of motor vehicles who cause so much pain, sorrow and loss of income to victims and their families, and as a result affect the economy of our country, especially when the victims happen to be able-bodied men and women who become victims of horrible accidents caused by reckless, dangerous and often poorly qualified drivers.

It is my pleasure to state that the DP supports the amendments and hence the Administrative Adjudication of Road Traffic Offences Amendment Bill, because we strongly believe that wrongdoers must be brought to book. In view of the encouraging remarks of the hon the Minister when he introduced the debate, we are pleased to support the amendment. [Applause.]

Mr V V Z WINDVOëL: Mgcinisihlalo, nemalunga lahloniphekile, bantfwana baMbandzeni, ngiyatfokota kutfola lelitfuba lekutsi nami ngiphonse emavi esivivaneni. Inhlitiyo yami ngiyiva shangatsi ijabula kakhulu nangiva nesitfunywa seDP sesigucukile sesihambisana nalabanye labasekela loMtsetfosivivinyo loletsa intfutfuko lapha eNingizimu Afrika. (Translation of Siswati paragraph follows.)

[Mr V V Z WINDVOëL: Chairperson, hon members, children of Mbandzeni, I am grateful to get this opportunity to contribute to this debate. My heart is filled with joy to hear that the delegate from the DP has repented and is co-operating with all other people who support the Bill that brings development to South Africa.]

Of course, the ecosystem would be incomplete if there were no chameleons.

Lomtsetfo lesibukene nawo ukhuluma ngekuchitjelwa kwekuhlelenjiswa nekulawulwa kwekukhokha tinhlawulo temgwaco. Angisho nje, kutsi tsine njengeMpumalanga siyakwemukela lokuchitjelwa kwalomtsetfo ngaletizatfu letilandzelako: [Kuhlaba lulwimi.] Kantsi ngitawubuyela wena wekunene. Kwekucala nje kutaba lula kuletiphatsimandla temgwaco kutsi tibuyise inhlawulo nome imali lebeyilahlekela umbuso ngekutsi bekute tindlela leticinile lebetibukene naloko.

Kwesibili, kubekwa kwemasherifu (sheriffs) kutakwenta kutsi letigilamkhuba tesabe kuhlala tingakhokhi ngobe tati kutsi kungenteka kutsi kudliwe timphahla tato. Cabanga nje ungubabe welikhaya utsi usahleti utibukelela mabonakudze nebantfwabakho kutsi chamu-tfushu sherifu asatewutsatsa mabonakudze wakho ngekutsi awuzange ume esitobhini kantsi naleyo nhlawulo awukayikhokhi. [Kuhlaba lulwim.]

An HON MEMBER: Impela! (Translation of Siswati paragraphs follows.)

[The law before us seeks to amend the Administrative Adjudication of Road Traffic Offences. I want to state that we in Mpumalanga support the amendments to this Act for the following reasons. [Interjections.] Yes, I will come back to you hon member. Firstly, it will make things easy for the administrators of the roads to refund the sheriffs or the money that Government lost because there were no strong strategies to curb that.

Secondly, the regulation of the appointment of sheriffs will scare the infringers and they, definitely, would be frightened not to pay because they would know that their belongings might be confiscated. You can imagine being a dignified father seated calmly at your own home, watching TV with your kids and, suddenly, a sheriff appears at your door and impounds your TV, just because you did not adhere to a certain stop sign and have not paid the fine too! [Interjections.]

An HON MEMBER: Truly!

Mr V V Z WINDVOëL Kodvwa kubalulekile kutsi sisho, njengobe sike sabeka nje nasekomidini kutsi labo bashayeli betigulumba nebemaloli etinkampani letitfolakala tingekho esimeni lesilungele kuhamba emgwacweni, emathikithi enhlawulo kuhle abhalwe ngelibito lenkampani nome lemnikati waleyo nkampani. Ngaloko sivikela kutsi labo bashayeli, linyenti labo labaphuyile bangatitfoli sebaphuye kakhulu, kumbe batitfole sebaboshiwe nome sebadlelwe timphahla ngalokungakafaneli.

Setsemba kutsi etehlakalweni letinjengaleti bashayeli kufanele bavikeleke. Ngobe lawo maphutsa kusuke kungesiwo emaphutsa abo kodvwa kungemaphutsa aleto tinkampani nome banikati betigulumba.

Kuyatiwa kutsi, luswane lolungakhali lufela embelekweni. Kungako nje lomtsetfo uvumela kutsi labo labanetinkinga tekutsi lenhlawulo, bayikhokhe kheshi, kwangaleso sikhatsi, basengaya kuyawuticelela kutsi bayikhokhe ngemancozuncozu, loku lesitsi ngemastolmenti. Siphindze futsi sibonge lokwengetwa kwemalanga layaye abekwe kutsiwe umuntfu kufanele uyikhokhe ngalelilanga leli kutsi engetwe kusukela emalangeni langema-28 kuye kulangema-32. Ngobe loko kwenta kutsi lona wekunene longawugcini lomtsetfo abe nelilanga linye emvakwekuphela kwenyanga kuze akhone kuyawukhokha.

Ngitawuphindza ngibuyele kuloku lokubekwe yiNdvuna lehloniphekile, uMnu Dullah Omar, loku lokubitwa ngekutsi ngema-demarikhi phoyinti - ngiphoceke kakhulu ngobe lelibandla lami lebahumushi belisengakatfoli kutsi emadimerikhi phoyinti singatsi yini ngeSiswati - kutsi abukene kakhulu nebashayeli balapha eSikhwahlande - eNingizimu Afrika.

Ase sibuke kutsi bona labashayeli labavela ngaphandle kwaleli, ikakhulukati tsine lapha eMpumalanga sakhelene dvutane neSwatini kanye neMozambikwe, ubatfola balayishe tigulumba tabo tigcwele tinhlinhla tidzimate tibhembese tibheke etulu, umangale kutsi ingabe sihamba kanjani. Ngaleyo ndlela tihamba tigugubula lemigwaco yetfu.

Bona nome bangaboshwa kudzimate kube kasikhombisa nome kube yimfica kube solo kutsiwa uboshwa kwekucala ngobe le-dimerikhi phoyinti akaniketwa umklomelo wayo kutsi imehlise, kucace kutsi ungumshayeli loshayela ngebudlabha. Kufanele kube nendlela labangayibukisisa ngayo bona batiNdvuna temigwaco bahlangane naletinye tindvuna kuleli lasentasi ne-Afrika, iSADC.

Siyawemukela lomtsetfo lapha eMpumalanga kutsi awuciniswe, uhambisane nekuciniswa nekunakekelwa kwemigwaco, nekwakhiwa kwemigwaco ibe sezingeni lelifanele. Singatsi kubantfu bashayela kabi sibe tsine siyekelele ngalapha ngasekwakhiweni kwemigwaco kugcwale tigodzi yonkhe indzawo ngobe nguko lokubangela letingoti letikhubata lesicubulo se-Arrive Alive. Sitsi imigwaco ayinakekelwe, ikhone kutsi ikhushulwe ibe sezingeni leliphakeme. Asisho-ke ngaloko kutsi akwandziswe linani lema-tholigethi ngobe libese lidla kakhulu ekhikhini. [Luhleko.]

Sihlalo wetfu wekomidi, Make Majodini, abesabekile kutsi kutaba kuhle kutsi kube nemfundziso lenyenti kakhulu kubashayeli, kodvwa akufundziswe nabo laba labatiphatsimandla temigwaco ngalomtsetfo lomusha kuze kutsi nakwenteka baphume bayewusebenta bati kutsi abasasebenti ngalowa mtsetfo lomdzala waboPewula. [Kuhlaba lulwimi.]

Ekugcineni, kubalulekile kakhulu kutsi leNdlu yati kutsi iMpumalanga iyakusekela kushicilelwa kwalomtsetfo. [Tandla.] (Translation of Siswati paragraphs follows.)

Mr V V Z WINDVOëL: Chairperson, it is very important that we state, as we have said in the committee, that for those drivers of company tractors and lorries, which are unroadworthy, the tickets for fines must be issued to the company or to the owner of that company. By so doing we are protecting those drivers, many of whom are very poor that they do not find themselves in a poorer state, or find themselves in jail or their properties being unfairly confiscated.

We hope that in such disasters drivers should be protected, because those are not, usually, the mistakes of the drivers, but mistakes of their companies or owners of the tractors and lorries.

It is a known fact that a baby who does not cry dies on its mother’s back. That is why this Bill allows that those who have problems in paying the fine in cash, there and then, can go to ask permission to pay it in instalments. We are also grateful that the usually stipulated timeframe to pay has been increased from 28 days to 32. That allows that a person who does not adhere to the law would have another day after month-end which would enable him or her to go and pay the fine.

I will come back to what the hon Minister, Dullah Omar, said about demerit points - I am very much disappointed because my Language Board has not yet coined the official name for demerit points in Siswati - it is because they are looking directly to the South African drivers only.

Let us turn to the drivers that are not South Africans, especially we in Mpumalanga; we are faced with drivers from both Swaziland and Mozambique. You find that those people have loaded tractors full to capacity so that one sees the load is overweight and begins to wonder how it manages to get moving anyway. In that way they destroy our roads.

Even though they could be charged more than seven times or nine times, it is always said it is for the first time they are fined because they are not given the demerit points to degrade them, and it is clear that he or she is a bad driver. There should be strategic measures that they as Ministers of transport and other ministers in the Southern part of Africa, could apply.

We in the Mpumalanga provinces support that this Bill should be strengthened, together with the durability, catering and building of the roads so that they comply with the acceptable standards. We should not accuse people of bad driving while we are relaxed and not building durable roads, and let potholes develop all over the roads because that is one of the causes of accidents that impede on the Arrive Alive slogan.

All we are trying to say is that roads should be given first priority; road standards should be raised to the highest level. By so saying we are not asking for more toll-gates because it is biting deep into our pockets.

The Chairperson of our committee, Ms Majodina, has already stated that it would be fitting to have extensive training for the drivers and that the administrators of the roads, according to this new Bill, should also be taught so that if it happens that they should go out to work they should know that they are no longer working like in ancient times. [Interjections.]

Lastly, it is imperative that this House should know that Mpumalanga supports the amendment of this law. [Applause.]]

Rev P MOATSHE: Chairperson, hon Minister, hon members, if one looks at the statistics, on average there are 512 000 motor vehicle accidents a year in our country. In order to combat the generally irresponsible driving habits, institutional reform has become necessary, because of the worrying downwards trend in the finalisation of road traffic offences. We hope that with the Administrative Adjudication of Road Traffic Offences Amendment Bill this and associated problems will now be speedily addressed. A closer look at the statistics, specifically those pertaining to spot fines, tells us why. In terms of the Criminal Procedure Act, spot fines have dropped dramatically from 75% in 1989, to a pathetic 25% in 1997. Summonses with the option of a fine have dropped from 72% in 1989, to 51% in 1997. Summonses to appear in court are down from 71% in 1989, to 25% in

1. Unfortunately, 1997 is the last year for which comprehensive data are available.

The aims of the Administrative Adjudication of Road Traffic Offences Amendment Bill are simply to put in place an effective, efficient and streamlined fine processing and collection system that will take routine traffic offences out of the overstretched courts. This we welcome, since offenders of traffic violent and nonviolent offences are causing huge bottlenecks at our courts.

The Bill also seeks to do away with anomalies and deferring fines that are currently open to abuse. Moreover, it eliminates on-the-spot bargaining and provides for standard national penalties for specified offences. So there can be no bargaining about it.

The Bill introduces the demerit point system in respect of certain traffic offences, such as speeding, overloading, unroadworthy vehicles and driving without a valid driver’s licence. There is a threshold on the demerit points a first offender incurs, depending on the severity of the offence. When an offender exceeds 12 demerit points, a driver’s licence, professional driving permit or operator’s card will be suspended. A third suspension will result in the suspension of the licence.

However, it also provides for the reduction of demerit points for good behaviour for drivers and consistent law compliance. In other words, drivers will not be stuck at 12 demerit points for ever.

More importantly, though, the system depends on an integrated national information database or similar mechanism to expose repeat offenders and banish them from the roads. Expectations for delivery and proper law enforcement on our roads are high. It is therefore important that we have an integrated national database or similar mechanism to crack down on and banish repeat offenders from our roads, because road user attitudes will not change overnight.

In addition, we need to involve communities and participation by our youngest schoolchildren in order to ensure sustained responsibility on our roads, because in the final analysis they are the victims of irresponsible driving habits. Ultimately, all stakeholders, such as provincial departments, local governments, taxi associations, fleet owners, bus operators and programmes such as Arrive Alive and the Road to South African Safety need to come on board to nurture different attitudes and social behaviours towards road behaviour.

Tshipo o rile ke lebelo, motlhaba wa re ke namile. Letsogo la molao le maphata e bile le leleele. Go na le batho ba ba dinala dileele, ba ba batlang go direlwa mo lefitshwaneng. Le fa e ka buelwa mo lengopeng, manong a tlaa e bona.

Badiredipuso mo mebileng ya Afrika Borwa ba tlaa tshwanela go kgaola dinala tsa bona gore molao o, o elele le mafaratlhatlha a mebila ya Afrika Borwa. Kwa gaabo boi ga go lediwe. Porofense ya Bokone Bophirima ya re, legodu le tshwarwa ka morwalo. Molao o, a o garelwe mme o tshegetswe. [Legofi.] (Translation of Setswana paragraphs follows.)

[One can run, but cannot hide. No matter how long it takes, the law will catch up with wrongdoers. There are people who want to do things in the dark. Even if they were to do things in the dark, they will be seen.

Public servants in the streets of South Africa will have to work harder so that this law could filter down in South Africa. One who avoids danger does not find himself in trouble. The North West province says that a thief is often caught with what he has stolen. This law should be concluded and upheld.] Mnr A J WILLIAMS (Wes-Kaap): Mev die Voorsitter, die Wysigingswetsontwerp op die Administratiewe Beregtiging van Padverkeersmisdrywe van 2002 word deur die Wes-Kaap ondersteun. Die implementering van hierdie wetgewing kom al ‘n lang pad aan. Die vertroue word ook uitgespreek dat hierdie wetsontwerp alle verkeersoortreders aan die kaak sal stel, ook daardie enkele verkeersbeamptes wat hulle skuldig maak aan die oortreding van verkeersreëls. Ek verwys na daardie verkeersbeamptes wat daarna probeer om getuienis so te manipuleer dat hulle hul onskuld kan bewys en die instrumente die skuldiges maak.

Dit is noodsaaklik dat daar orde op ons paaie moet kom. Daar is ‘n soort astrante arrogansie op ons paaie te bespeur. Bestuurders van voertuie gee net nie meer om nie. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)

[Mr A J WILLIAMS (Western Cape): Madam Chairperson, the Administrative Adjudication of Road Traffic Offences Amendment Bill of 2002 is supported by the Western Cape. The implementation of this legislation has been a long time coming. The hope is also expressed that this Bill will expose all traffic violators, including those few traffic officials who are guilty of violating traffic rules. I am referring to those traffic officials who try to manipulate evidence afterwards so that they can prove their innocence and make the instruments the guilty parties.

It is essential that order be established on our roads. There is a kind of insolent arrogance visible on our roads. Drivers of vehicles simply do not care anymore.]

Not only will this Bill therefore succeed in decriminalising many road traffic offences and so enable our courts of law to concentrate on more serious criminal acts, but it will enable authorities to follow up on offenders more effectively. It will seek, through regulations, to establish uniform penalties for the same offences wherever they take place in South Africa and with its demerit points system encourage drivers to be more law abiding. Most members will be familiar with the intentions of this Bill and the modus operandi of the board that is to be created and the infringement agency that will manage the processes. An infringement agency will operate under the guidance of a board. Law enforcement authorities will issue the notices to technical law infringers in the normal way. If the fine is not paid to the authority within 32 days, the case will be handed over to the agency to follow up, first with courtesy letters and later with stronger measures. The cost of each action will be recouped from infringers unless they are, through appeals through the agency or a court of law, found not guilty. The penalty fines eventually gathered by the agencies will be returned to the issuing authorities less a handling fee.

Regulations will be promulgated setting uniform penalties, both in fines and merit points, for each particular offence. The agency will be peopled by knowledgeable and experienced persons who will be properly able to adjudicate appeals.

As to demerit points, when these accumulate to a maximum number of twelve, the habitual offender’s driver’s licence is automatically suspended.

Dit is reg so. As ‘n man dan nie wil hoor nie, moet hy voel. [Gelag.] En as hy nie kan voel nie, moet daar na ander maatreëls gekyk word om hom tot orde te roep. [That is quite right. He who will not listen must be made to feel. [Laughter.] And if he cannot feel, other measures must be looked at to call him to order.]

Through the adoption of this Bill it is envisaged to make some practical adjustments, such as the requirement for information to be shared between enforcement agencies and a central data base, including municipal bylaws and regulations, in the sphere of the agency’s activities. The composition of the control board and competencies of board members will be amended, while a number of potential loopholes that have come to light will also be closed.

In clause 1 the regulation of the driving licence card as acceptable identification is dealt with. Our card-type licence is of high quality and has a number of recognition factors built into it. Further it is also the intention to wait until all drivers have converted to the card licence before the demerit point system that is part of the Bill will come into action.

Daarom is dit noodsaaklik dat ons ‘n beroep doen op alle bestuurders wat nog nie in besit is van daardie kaartlisensie nie om dit so spoedig moontlik te bekom. [Therefore it is essential that we appeal to all drivers who are not yet in possession of that card-type licence to obtain it as soon as possible.]

Clause 2 takes cognisance of the need for compliance with municipal laws. Previously only national and provincial legislation was mentioned.

Clause 4 raises from three to five the number of experts that can serve on the board. In total there will be seven members. They no longer have to be state employees and there is a stronger requirement for the invitation of objections to the proposed appointment of individuals.

Clause 6 obliges the national Minister of Transport to consult the registrar before making recommendations for the appointment of sheriffs through the Minister of Justice.

Clause 8 introduces a period of 32 instead of 28 days during which the discount of a penalty will apply and during which arrangements may be made without agency enforcement coming into force. Various other loopholes are closed. A local registration authority and driving licence testing centre are added where transactions may occur and there is an obligation placed on them to update the national contravention register appropriately.

In clause 13 the registrars have been strengthened in that a warrant issue is valid until overtaken by a sheriff’s action and there is clarification that he/she only may seize movable property to defer penalty fees. Clause 15 deals with the dates when demerit points are incurred, with partial payments and with the notification by the clerk of the court to the agency of the results of prosecutions and appeals, which is obviously important.

Clause 16 adds necessary detail to the commencement of demerit points towards disqualification or surrender of a licence. As to the remainder of the clauses, they clarify matters, eliminate gaps or deal with appropriate actions. Once this Bill is passed into law the then substantive AARTO Act will prove a boon to traffic law enforcement and traffic management in all spheres of government. [Time expired.]

Mr R M NYAKANE: Chairperson, I think members should realise that today I speak on behalf of my province, not the UDM. I would like to recognise this gesture with great appreciation. But this observation need not be construed to suggest anything connected to the crossing-the-floor legislation. [Laughter.]

On a serious note, I would from the outset like to indicate that the permanent delegates from the Limpopo province have diligently briefed the Standing Committee on Transport on two separate occasions. Extensive discussions took place during the briefing. The interrogation of the Bill was done clause by clause under the able leadership of the hon Kgoshi M L Mokoena.

Subsequent to this exercise, the permanent delegation was granted a mandate in terms of the provincial legislature Resolution 32, dated 5 November 2002, to vote in favour of the Bill with no amendments. This position was expressed as well in the select committee during our tabling of the final mandate. During the interrogation of the Bill by the joint meeting of the permanent delegates and the Standing Committee on Transport, amendments effected in the Bill were hailed on account of, among other things, the socioeconomic status of the province.

Unemployment and the poverty profile of our province will undoubtedly maximise a lot, particularly with regard to the new payment arrangements proposed by this Bill. The settlement of the infringement fines in instalment terms, and that discounts could be effected upon payment within a scheduled period, namely 32 days, are therefore viable proposals.

On matters pertaining to the composition of the board, the principal legislation had provided that the board would comprise seven members, and that five of these members should not be public servants. This provision could no longer stand the test of time given that section 22 of our Constitution provides that every citizen has the right to choose their trade, occupation or profession freely. Therefore it cannot be ruled out that there were specific people destined to benefit from this arrangement.

Further, I wish to highlight the following in terms of section 21 of this Bill. A person may ascertain whether he or she has demerit points from the licensing office upon the payment of the prescribed fees. This process will trigger a regular and sustained process of interaction between officials and traffic offence perpetrators. Counselling of offenders is bound to stem from this interaction. Another point is that point-scoring will undoubtedly impact positively on the imposition of appropriate sentences by our courts of law.

Perhaps the most important development could be that demerit points would serve as deterrent instruments against the habitual perpetrators of traffic offences. We should remember that our downtimes could be used to build us up. Put differently, a maxim has it that a burned child threads fire.

May I therefore conclude by putting it on record that the Limpopo provincial government is in agreement with all the amendments effected. We look forward to the positive outcomes envisaged by this piece of legislation.

Nksz N D NTWANAMBI: Mhlalingaphambili, eyona nto imnandi kukuthetha abantu abaninzi sele bethethile. Loo nto inceda naba bantu banexhala lexesha. Ndifuna ukuthi kumphathiswa … (Translation of Xhosa paragraphs follows.)

[Ms N D NTWANAMBI: Chairperson, it is most satsifying to follow on everybody else. It is also helpful to the people who keep tabs on the time.

I want to say to the Minister …]

… the Bill that is before us today will help us catch those who fail to comply with the law. Nothing can substitute the driver’s licence. One cannot be asked for a driver’s licence and produce a credit card. The sooner the amendments are incorporated into the Act, the better for both most tourists and pedestrians.

Clause 2 of the Bill provides for what has always been the desire of many people, that all spheres of government work together. I do not have to go back to the boards and the sheriffs. That has been mentioned already, so I do not have to repeat that, but I must also say that many municipalities are owed millions of rands. Some of the culprits, I can assure hon members, are seated here. [Interjections.]

Into ethetha ukuba ndiwuchanile umhlola. Ngabo ke aba babamba oomasipala imali. [This means I have hit the nail on the head. These are the people who owe money to municipalities.]

If one does not pay, this time one will be forced to pay. [Interjections.] Whoever is accusing me is not telling the truth.

The fact that the sheriff can now attach and remove goods, as hon Windvoël was saying, and sell them to the value of the fine, will leave many people with one message: Abide by and follow the rules, or lose what you have. [Interjections.] [Laughter.]

Well, fortunately, nothing says one will be cut, so no blood will flow.

The ANC supports the Bill. Lastly, let me just say this …

… abantu abahlala elokishini baza kuzibona ezi zithuthi zingaqhelekanga - phaya eGuguletu sizibiza ngokuba ngamaphela - ezithutha abantu. Ubani wofika iziqhoboshi zazo zingasebenzi, ngathi zizithuthi ezithathwe ezindongeni. Azifani nje nezindlu, ngamatyotyombe ahambayo, agoso. Kodwa into ebalulekileyo kukuba kuzo zonke ezi zinto zazo zingaqhelekanga, ezi zithuthi zithwala imiphefumlo yabantu.

Ndifuna ukuthi bendingavuya xa nabakhweli aba bebenganikwa awabo amatikiti ngokukhwela ezi zithuthi bebona ukuba imiphefumlo yabo isengozini. Ixesha lifikile lokuba nathi sifunde ukuzenzela. Asizenzeli yonke into.

Kwakhona, ibingaba luvuyo kum ukuba amagosa endlela ebenokukhe abe nenkampu, ngakumbi ngeli xesha likaDisemba, kule ndlela ibheka e-Laingsburg naseBhobhofolo, ubani angaboni nje imingqandandana, mhlawumbi elinye apha kule ndlela yokuqala xa ubani ephuma eKapa ze elinye afike lingaphaya ngase- Three Sisters. Ayikho indlela ebulala abantu ukudlula le.

Okokogqibela, kwabo baza kuza enkomfeni eStellenbosch ngoDisemba, kubalulekile ukuba njengabantu abaziwa njengabaqhubi abathanda isantya esiphezulu nabaqhuba izithuthi ezivumayo, kufuneka bawalungise amavili. Kodwa okona kubalulekileyo kukuba kufuneka baqhube ngenyameko, babe ngumzekelo. (Translation of isiXhosa paragraphs follows.)

[… people from the location see these unusual vehicles - in Guguletu they call them ``cockroaches’’ - which transport people from point A to point B. One will find them with defective brakes, as if they were collected from the scrapyard. One would not liken them to houses; they are like crooked shacks on wheels. But what is of importance is that, despite all their abnormalities, these vehicles transport people.

I want to say that I would be happy if the commuters themselves could be ticketed for using these vehicles, knowing full well that they are putting their lives in danger. The time has come for us to learn to do things on our own. We do not do everything on our own.

Furthermore, I would be happy if traffic officers could set up camp, particularly during the December season, on the road leading to Laingsburg and Beaufort West, so that one doesn’t just see a few; maybe one on the roads leading out of Cape Town and maybe another one in the vicinity of Three Sisters. That road has the most fatal accidents.

Finally, those who will be attending the conference at Stellenbosch, as people who are known to be fond of speeding and driving good cars. It is important that they check the wheels of their cars. But even more important, they have to be patient on the road and be exemplary.]

They must also know that speed kills. [Applause.]

The MINISTER OF TRANSPORT: Chairperson, hon members and special delegates, I first want to thank all members who participated in this debate. I thank them for their support for the amendments of the Bill and also for the encouragement. I have noted the suggestions which have been made with regard to a number of practical matters and members can be assured that these will be put before the relevant structures.

I can say to the House that we did not come to Parliament without having consulted all the provinces. In other words, this amending Bill is the product of consultations between national and provincial governments, as well as Salga representing local government, so that what we have is a product of consultation between the different levels of government. And I am very happy to note here today that the consensus on the Bill is a fair reflection of what our own discussions have been.

I am not going to comment on all the points which have been raised during the course of this debate. I think many of them are suggestions, support for the Bill and explaining the Bill, so there is no need for me to repeat them or to comment on them.

I just want to highlight one or two things. The first is that hon members and delegates were concerned about whether the public was sufficiently informed and whether the public was going to be sufficiently educated. I want to give the House the assurance that there is a programme in place to ensure that in all provinces there are programmes, so as to put before the public all information relating to this law and how it will operate. Educating the public, and educating the motoring public, is going to be an important feature of the work of AARTO.

Secondly, I have noted the requests that not only drivers should be penalised for certain traffic offences, but also owners. I want to give the House the assurance that that is an area that the department has been looking into. The chairperson will recall that just about a year ago we launched the Road to Safety Strategy, of which Arrive Alive is a part. One of the issues was related to overloading. There the issue of owner responsibility and liability came up. On 21 November there will be a report- back conference on what we have done under the Road to Safety Strategy since the strategy was launched in November last year. This would be one of the issues which will be reported on.

I also want to indicate to the House that we are not bringing in this law in isolation. It is part of this broader strategy to deal with road traffic management - not only road safety, but road traffic management. Road safety is an important part of road traffic management, but road traffic management is a broader concept. And so there will be a report-back at the conference on the 21st on all aspects of road traffic management.

An example which is relevant for us is the issue of professional drivers, drivers of taxis, buses and of trucks. Just over a week ago there was an accident near Piet Retief involving a vehicle carrying tourists. Ten people were killed in the accident. Now here was a professional driver. The police have not decided whether to prosecute or not. It is possible that there will be a prosecution and it is possible that the driver may be charged with culpable homicide. But the indications are that the cause of the accident was driver fault. And if one looks at the number of bus accidents, minibus taxi accidents, as well as motor car accidents, driver fault appears to be the major contributing cause to road accidents and therefore to the deaths which we have on our roads.

With regard to professional drivers, looking at the system, including AARTO, we have proposed that there should be a requirement in the law that no person shall acquire a professional driver’s permit unless he or she has passed a course in professional driver training. In other words, professional driver training, we propose, should be made compulsory, and I believe that all stakeholders are generally in agreement with that. So there are a number of other measures which are being brought in. I am not going to go into more details; I am merely giving one or two examples in this regard.

More than one member raised the question of the condition of our roads, and I believe that early in the new year we should come back to the House and give the House a report on what is being done on the question of road development and maintenance in South Africa. I can say to the House that we are working on a road development plan. Earlier this year we announced that Treasury was making available, over a period of five years, an amount of R30 billion for road development and maintenance in South Africa. Now of course that is not just for national roads, but for provincial roads, local roads and rural roads. One of the proposals is that the money set aside for rural roads should be ringfenced so that that money should not be used for any other purpose. My own view is that all money allocated for road building and road maintenance should be ringfenced and different levels of government should not be allowed to use that money for any other purpose. We are finalising the road development plan and I am sure that early in the new year we will be able to give a further report to this House in this regard.

I want to say that we are moving on a number of fronts and the question of roads, vehicle fitness, driver fitness, law enforcement, and of course AARTO is going to play a very important role in that. May I then conclude by saying that the Arrive Alive campaign this year is also going to be a very intensive one. Again, there has been consultation between the different provinces. The provinces actually play the biggest role in Arrive Alive and the local authorities as well, but the big focus this year is on pedestrian safety, and there will be a great deal of communication on the question of pedestrian safety. About 30% of road deaths are those of pedestrians, and therefore it is going to form an important part of the campaign. And, as hon members have said, we need to set the example. I hope that members of this House and the National Assembly will set an example. I want to conclude by thanking the House for its support and wishing all members a happy holiday and festive season. May you all arrive alive. [Applause.]

Debate concluded.

Question put: That the Bill be agreed to.

IN FAVOUR OF: Eastern Cape, Free State, Gauteng, KwaZulu-Natal, Mpumalanga, Northern Cape, Northern Province.

Bill accordingly agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.

                LOCAL GOVERNMENT LAWS AMENDMENT BILL

                  (Consideration of Report thereon)

The MINISTER FOR PROVINCIAL AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT: Madam Chair, hon members, in the past and at various times this House has considered a series of legislation which helped us shape and inaugurate what is regarded as one of the most innovative systems of local government in the world. Since its inauguration just under two years ago, our new system of local government has announced and made its presence felt in several profound ways.

Whereas many South Africans - especially those who are on the peripheries of urban centres and those in the rural areas - previously experienced the state as an institution that sought their political and economic exclusion, we now have a system of local government which is truly inclusive and nationwide. It is nationwide in the sense that in every local area people have had the opportunity to elect their own public representatives. Also, the local government system is part of our overall intergovernmental system which functions in pursuit of our national goals, the goals of good governance and sustainable economic development.

The notion of integrated development planning is increasing in relation with all our municipalities having participated in the novel process of formulating integrated development plans. The development plans are of varying quality and this points to their differential legacy of endowment, which we must redress through the intensified implementation of our national programme of support for local government.

As we continue to give systematic support to local government, we need continually to look at our policy and legislative environment. In the event where we identify bottlenecks or impediments which stand in the way of the realisation of our strategic objectives, we are dutybound to approach this House, as we are now doing, for assistance.

We introduce to the House today the Local Government Laws Amendment Bill. The Bill seeks further to refine the legal framework applicable to local government. To this end, the Bill seeks to amend the Organised Local Government Act of 1997, the Remuneration of Public Office Bearers Act of 1998, the Local Government Municipal Demarcation Act of 1998, the Local Government Municipal Structures Act of 1998, the Local Government Municipal Systems Act of 2000 and the Local Government Municipal Structures Amendment Act of 2000.

The Bill is intended to address the anomalies in the current legislation in order to create certainty. A number of these amendments are of a technical nature, whilst the rest of the amendments seek to clarify and restate policy. We are prompted to do this by the exigencies which have come to light in the process of the implementation of existing legislation.

For instance, in the course of doing our work, we saw the necessity for a provision which regulates the implementation of the division of powers and functions between category B and C municipalities. An amendment of section 84(3) of the Local Government Municipal Structures Act is proposed, enabling us to regulate the legal, practical and other consequences when a notice authorising a local municipality to perform certain functions or exercise certain powers of district municipalities is revoked.

Currently no provision pertaining to such regulation of consequences exists. An amendment is proposed to the Local Government Municipal Structures Amendment Act, 2000, so as to extend the transitional period provided therein until June 2003. This amendment will ensure that authorisation for municipal powers and functions will not lapse in the middle of the municipal financial year, as would be the case at the moment. The implementation of the final division of powers and functions will lay the foundation for strong district councils. It will enable district councils to focus on the sustainable delivery of services in an integrated and co-ordinated manner.

The Municipal Demarcation Board has requested various amendments to the Local Government Municipal Demarcation Act of 1998. Most of the amendments proposed are of a technical nature so as either to correct outdated references or to clarify matters of process or interpretation.

The proposed amendments that introduce new principles into the Local Government Municipal Demarcation Act include an amendment to section 6 that would reduce the number of members of the Municipal Demarcation Board. Whilst the board will continue to exist, it is expected that it would only need a limited number of members to perform its functions. A board consisting of a minimum of seven and a maximum of ten members is proposed.

The Bill provides for municipalities to reimburse traditional leaders for any such expenses as they may incur when they participate in the affairs of municipal councils. This is in response to representations made by various role-players in pursuit of enhancing the objective of traditional leaders in local governance.

This is another concession Government is making to ensure that these leaders become an integral part of the system of rural governance at local level. It is the intention of this legislation to assist in facilitating the smooth implementation of our new local government system. To achieve this goal a number of obstacles on the road to a transformed system of local government must be removed. To this end I commend this Bill to the House. [Applause.]

Mr B J MKHALIPHI: Chairperson, hon Minister, hon members, our democratic Government has always sought to confront the challenges posed by poverty and underdevelopment, and to ensure a better life for all through a comprehensive programme of social transformation. Central to this programme is the fundamental transformation of local government from one that is characterised by racially skewed settlement patterns, disparities between towns and townships, and massive backlogs in service infrastructure, to a people-centred, developmentally orientated sphere of government.

The reason for placing a key focus on the transformation of local government is that Government recognises that local government plays four very important roles. Firstly, it is the sphere of government directly charged with the delivery of basic services such as water, sanitation, roads, electricity and other services. Secondly, it is the sphere of government, needless to say, closest to the people. Thirdly, it plays an important role in promoting local economic development and therefore job creation. Lastly, it is the sphere of government responsible for co- ordinating the activities of other sectors and spheres of government for the development of local communities.

In pursuance of these objectives to establish a local government model that is people-centred, developmentally orientated and functional, the Government has embarked on a systematic local government transformation process which saw the enactment of various pieces of legislation and policies necessary to achieve this objective.

Key pieces of legislation during this process were the Organised Local Government Act, the Remuneration of Public Office Bearers Act, the Local Government Municipal Demarcation Act, the Local Government Municipal Structures Act and the Local Government Municipal Systems Act. Together these Acts make up the core principles and values of the new system of local government which the Government has committed itself to implementing.

The process of fundamental transformation, although not fully concluded, was sealed with the 2000 local government elections, which ushered in the new model of local government. The transformation of local government is a dynamic process with no clear-cut, fixed solutions. Problems may crop up from time to time, for which the existing legislation may not have made provision.

Although the Organised Local Government Act and others are very good pieces of legislation - and for this the Department of Provincial and Local Government must be commended - they will have to be amended from time to time to make provision for changing circumstances. The current amendments, however, were not necessitated by such changing circumstances. They are merely minor technical amendments to the above mentioned Acts to ensure their proper implementation.

If one looks at this Act, it is clear that these core principles and values of our local government system remain very sound. In no way do these amendments suggest that there is something fundamentally wrong with our new system of local government. They merely seek to ensure greater effectiveness in the implementation of our new system of local government.

Finally, I have absolutely no doubt that these amendments will indeed achieve the objective of strengthening the implementation process. [Applause.]

Me C BOTHA: Agb Voorsitter, Minister Mufamadi, hierdie wetsontwerp wysig nie minder as ses wette nie. Die meeste wysigings is tegnies van aard en onbestrede. Dit dui ook op ‘n belangrike aspek van die wetgewingsproses. Parlementêre komitees behoort genoegsame tyd vergun te word om konsepwetgewing deeglik te bestudeer sodat die eindproduk duideliker is vir die gebruiker en nie die weg ooplaat vir misverstande of uiteenlopende interpretasies nie. Wette moet eintlik so geskryf word dat dit nie aan praktiserende prokureurs en advokate werk verskaf nie.

Verskeie wysigings is aangebring om spelfoute in die Afrikaanse teks te korrigeer. Ek weet nie hoekom hulle in die eerste instansie te voorskyn gekom het nie, want ‘n rekenaartoets behoort hierdie foute voor publikasie te verwyder het. Dit is iets waarna die regsadviseurs en versorgers voorbehoedend moet kyk.

In die Gesamentlike Begrotingskomitee het die departement aangedui dat die langverwagte konsepwetgewing op eiendomsbelasting voor die einde van die jaar voor hierdie komitee sal dien. Wyslik het hulle nie gesê watter jaar nie. Hierdie wetgewing is uiters noodsaaklik om te verhinder dat ons nie intussen verval in ‘n situasie waar belastingsheffings op ‘n ad hoc-basis geskied nie.

Tans gebeur dit in die Vrystaat ten opsigte van landbou-eiendom wat alreeds gelei het tot groot uitgawes ten opsigte van waardasies en hofprosedures en les bes die verlies aan vertroue by ‘n gemeenskap wat nie genoegsaam geraadpleeg is nie.

Ons sien juis in hierdie wetgewing ‘n nodige, maar terugwerkende klousule om wettige sekerheid te verkry ten opsigte van eiendomheffings in die Wes-, Oos- en Noord-Kaap. Klousule 44 wat ‘n wysiging is van artikel 118 van die sistemewet is heeltemal ontoereikend. Dit beskerm munisipaliteite ten koste van eienaars, wanneer eiendom nie oorgedra word as daar eiendomsbelasting en someer uitstaande is nie. Die verkoper moet nou die verantwoordelikheid vir hierdie uitstaande skuld aanvaar, al is dit deur ‘n huurder veroorsaak. Dit beteken dat die koper of verkoper die gevolge moet dra van ‘n swak invorderingsbeleid en kontrole van ‘n munisipaliteit. Die DA ondersteun nie hierdie klousule nie en glo dat daar indringend gekyk moet word na die totale omvang van die probleem en dat die voorgestelde wysiging nie die werklike probleem aanspreek nie.

Klousule 45 maak voorsiening daarvoor dat ‘n raadslid nie vir ‘n periode van drie maande agterstallig mag wees met sy of haar munisipale heffings nie. Mnr Bouwer het ter toeligting gesê dat optrede teen raadslede, indien hulle hierdie bepaling oortree, kan geskied volgens die gedragskode vir raadslede van die strukturewet. Hierin word riglyne neergelê oor hoe opgetree moet word wanneer ‘n raadslid die kode se bepalings oortree. Ek is bewus van groot uitstaande bedrae deur raadslede wat in ons provinsie onder die aandag van die betrokke Minister gebring is. Ek gaan met belangstelling kyk hoe die klousule toegepas word. Met genoemde voorbehoude, ondersteun die DA hierdie wetgewing. (Translation of Afrikaans speech follows.)

[Ms C BOTHA: Hon Chairperson, Minister Mufamadi, this Bill amends no less than six Acts. Most of the amendments are of a technical nature and are uncontroversial. It is also indicative of an important aspect of the legislative process. Parliamentary committees should be given sufficient time to study the draft legislation thoroughly so that the end product is clearer to the user and that it does not leave loopholes for misunderstandings or various interpretations. Laws should in fact be drafted in such a manner that they do not provide work for practising attorneys and advocates. Various amendments were made to correct spelling errors in the Afrikaans text. I do not know why they occurred in the first instance, because a computer test should have remove these errors before publication. This is something that the law advisers and the editors must look at preventatively.

In the Joint Budget Committee the department indicated that the long- awaited draft legislation on property rates will serve before this committee before the end of the year. Wisely, they did not say which year. This legislation is extremely essential to prevent us in the meanwhile from degenerating into a situation where taxes are levied on an ad hoc basis.

Currently in the Free State this happens with regard to agricultural property that has already led to major expenses in respect of valuations and court procedures and, last but not least, to the loss of trust in a community that was not adequately consulted.

We see in this very legislation a necessary but retrospective clause for obtaining legal certainty with regard to property levies in the Western, Eastern and the Northern Cape. Clause 44, which is an amendment to section 118 of the systems Act, is entirely inadequate. It safeguards municipalities at the expense of owners, where property is not transferred when property rates and so forth are in arrears. The seller must now assume responsibility for the arrears, even though it was generated by a tenant. This implies that the buyer or the seller must bear the consequences of a poor recovery policy and poor control by a municipality. The DA does not support this clause and believes that the total scope of the problem needs to be looked at incisively and that the proposed amendment does not address the real problem.

Clause 45 provides that a councillor may not be in arrears with his or her municipal levies for a period of three months. By way of clarification, Mr Bouwer said that action against councillors, if they should contravene this provision, can take place in accordance with the code of conduct for councillors of the structures Act. Guidelines as to what action should be taken when a councillor contravenes the provisions of the code are laid down in this code. I am aware of huge outstanding amounts by councillors in our province that were brought to the attention of the relevant Minister. I am going to watch with interest how the clause will be applied. With the aforementioned reservations, the DA supports this legislation.]

Mnr J HORNE: Agb Voorsitter, die Huis sal met my saamstem dat alle Ministers en alle lede wat vandag gepraat het, baie lank gepraat het. Ek dink die Minister van Plaaslike Regering het die kortste gepraat en daarom sal ons sy voorbeeld volg en die kortpad of die middeweg volg - maar ons sal nog steeds die waarheid praat.

Die wysigingswetsontwerp voel ons, alhoewel van ‘n tegniese aard, is van kardinale belang om sekere belangrike aangeleenthede op plaaslike bestuursvlak aan te spreek. Enkele tegniese regstellings is byvoorbeeld die herroeping van oorgangsmaatreëls om sekere vasstellings en betalings geldig te verklaar, asook die betaling van klein uitgawes aan tradisionele leiers wat aan die verrigtinge van munisipale rade deelneem. Tradisionele leiers moet dus aangemoedig en gemotiveer word om deel te neem aan die verrigtinge van plaaslike regerings om sodoende die vooruitgang van hulle mense te bevorder en te verseker dat hulle sodoende deel gaan wees van plaaslike regering wat die lewe van die mense op die grond bepaal.

Nog ‘n belangrike wysiging is die een wat die Kaapse Waardasie-ordonnansie raak. Ons het onlangs gesien hoe die Kaapse Metropool ‘n regverdige en gelyke waardasie- en belastingsbeleid ingestel het wat eiendomme en grond betref. Daar was geen optogte in die straat. Die mense wat gemurmureer het, is die gegoede mense. Die agtergeblewe mense word deur hierdie belastingbeleid opgehef sodat ook hulle die kop bo water kan hou. Ook word daar in die wet voorsiening gemaak vir die vermindering van lede op die Afbakeningsraad. Wat nog meer van relevante belang is, is dat die wet bepaal dat raadslede nie agterstallig mag wees ten opsigte van belastings- en dienstegeld vir langer as drie maande nie. Ek is stellig van mening dat hierdie byvoeging raadslede sal maan om die voorbeeld te stel dat om ‘n diens te gebruik, beteken ook om vir daardie diens te betaal. So nie, is mens se begrafnis op die spel.

Die NP is van mening dat die wysiging nodig en daarom steun ons die wetsontwerp. [Applous.] (Translation of Afrikaans speech follows.)

[Mr J HORNE: Hon Chairperson, the House will agree with me that all the Ministers and members who spoke today have spoken at great length. I think the Minister of Local Government spoke for the shortest length of time, so we shall follow his example by taking the shortcut or middle way - but we will still speak the truth.

We believe the amending Bill, although technical in nature, is of vital importance to address certain important matters at local management level. A few technical adjustments, for example, have been the abolition of transitional measures to declare certain rates and payments valid, and also the payment of minor expenses to traditional leaders who participate in the proceedings of municipal councils. Traditional leaders should therefore be encouraged and motivated to participate in the proceedings of local governments, and in this way promote the progress of their people and ensure that they are subsequently going to be part of local government which determines the lives of the people at grassroots level.

Another important amendment is the one affecting the Cape Valuation Ordinance. We have recently seen the Cape Metropole instituting an equitable and equal valuation and rates policy in respect of property and land. There were no marches in the streets. Those people who grumbled are the affluent ones. The disadvantaged people are being uplifted by this rates policy so that they can also keep their heads above water. Provision is also being made in the legislation for a decrease in the number of members serving on the Demarcation Board. What is of even greater relevance is that the legislation provides that council members may not be in arrears for more than three months with regard to rates and services. I am certainly of the opinion that this addition will urge council members to set the example that using a service also means paying for that service. If not, you are putting your neck on the line.

The New NP is of the opinion that the amendment is necessary, and therefore supports the Bill. [Applause.]]

Mr K D S DURR: Chairperson, hon Minister, I wish to address the Bill with particular reference to clause 20, and matters related thereto.

Section 229(5) of the Constitution reads:

National legislation envisaged in this section may be enacted only after organised local government and the Financial and Fiscal Commission have been consulted, and any recommendations of the Commission have been considered.

In my view this has not been done. My information is that clause 20 of the Bill was only referred to the Financial and Fiscal Commission’s chairman, not to the committee, which consists of 22 members, and thus the FFC was not consulted.

The Cape Town municipality tried to include this amendment on 19 June. This was not done, but only later was this amendment brought in, at a late date in the portfolio committee. These clauses are retrospective and could frustrate at least two court cases, one of which has been on the roll since June and the other, I believe, since May. They are expected to be heard in November and with retrospective legislation, the people might well be frustrated.

I am not arguing the merits; I am arguing the fact that these people should have a hearing. There has been a lack of consultation at local government level, and the public have not been heard. There has been a lack of consultation at national level, where we have steadfastly refused to hear the voice of the ratepayers. We are frustrating these ratepayers with retrospective legislation from possibly being heard in court. We have failed to consult the Financial and Fiscal Commission and are introducing retrospective legislation.

We are possibly changing the whole nature of local government rates and taxes that are normally levied to provide for services rendered. We see here a new, uneven tax, ushered in by stealth, which is unfair, unlawful and unrelated to services provided. In fact it is a wealth tax. Cape Town can no longer have ratepayers, but taxpayers. No one has anticipated this. This was not the intention of Sars, if one reads their documentation. Parliament is now co-operating in this deception.

We are thus opposed to the Bill. We call upon the Minister please to reconsider the matter very seriously. I am not arguing the merits, but the process. The fact is that ratepayers should have the right to be heard, and they have been obstructed from being heard at every possible level. Otherwise they would not be going to this huge expense of taking these matters to the High Courts at their personal expense in the way that they have. I request the Minister perhaps to subtract this section, hold it back, reconsider it or let it be properly dealt with.

We have little argument with the rest of the Bill. We also agree with the Minister’s comments about the enormous progress that has been made at local government level. But we ask the Minister that there should be consultation. Otherwise, in our view, this legislation is unlawful. We will be opposing the legislation because of this.

Prince B Z ZULU: Chairperson, hon Minister, hon members, the recognition of local government in the Constitution as a sphere of government has enhanced the status of local government as a whole, and municipalities in particular, and has given them a new dynamic role as instruments of delivery.

The Bill before us today seeks to address the challenges that face current legislation in order to create certainty and uniformity, so as to clarify and restate policy, while some amendments are technical in nature.

The World Summit on Sustainable Development, and especially the local government session, recognised the South African system of local government as a model for best practices as far as local government is concerned. The Bill emanates from the attempt to address challenges arising from policy implementation with regard to our local government, and should be seen as an improvement in that regard.

Noma-ke kunjalo, zikhona zona izinkinga ezikhona laphaya ezingeni lohulumeni basekhaya. Njengesimo sokukhishwa kwama-tender, ama-tender atholakala ekhishwa mhlawumbe eqondana nje nabantu abathile.

Kulesi sikhashana kade kunekhomishini ka-Dk Hadebe KwaZulu-Natali ephenya ngesikhalo esikhulu esesibe khona ngokukhishwa kwama-tender lapho okutholakale khona omunye womphakathi enikezwe ama-tender ayisishiyagalombili eyedwa, kodwa banye bengakwazi ukuwathola ama-tender noma ngabe benza yiphi imizamo. Okunye okubuye kube inkinga khona esigabeni salaphaya kohulumeni basemakhaya, indaba yamakhansela yokuvimbela intuthuko ngezikhathi ezithile emphakathini ethile.

Amaphrojekthi njengamanje ahanjiswa ezindaweni lezo eziyizizinda ezesekela lawo makhansela emaqenjini awo. Lokhu kube sekudala inkinga yokuthi uma kwenzakele mhlawumbe umuntu noma umphakathi othile ukuthi ufake isicelo sephrojekthi siphumelele, uma ikhansela belingakwazi lokho liyasivimbela futhi sisichithe leso sicelo. Lowo mphakathi ugcina ungasizakalanga ngoba ungalesekeli lelo khansela. Besingafisa ukuthi lezi zinto zilandeleke ukuze uma lokhu kuqhubeka ekukhishweni kwama-tender ngendlela engeyona kuvinjelwe kungaze kuqhubeke isikhathi eside ngoba kungumonakalo omkhulu.

Thina njengoKhongolose sithi siyakwesekela kakhulu ukuchitshiyelwa kwalesi sigatshana soMthetho ngoba sinenkolelo yokuthi kuzoba wusizo ekusebenzeni kwamakhansela. [Ihlombe.] (Translation of isiZulu paragraphs follows.)

[Nevertheless, there are problems at the local government level. Due to issuing of tenders, some tenders that are being issued are given to certain individuals.

Recently in KwaZulu-Natal, there was a Dr Hadebe’s commission which was investigating the issuing of tenders. It was discovered that one member of the public alone had been given eight tenders, while others were unable to get them, no matter how hard they tried. Another thing that has created problems at local government level, is the issue of councillors who hindered the development in the community at some other time.

Projects at the moment are sent to areas where the political parties of these councillors enjoy support. This causes a problem when someone or the community launches an application and has that application approved. If the councillor was not aware of that application, he would reject it. I would like these things to be followed up so that this illegal way of issuing tenders will be stopped before it causes serious trouble.

We in the ANC support the amendment of the clause because we believe that it is going to help in the way the councillors work. [Applause.]]

The MINISTER FOR PROVINCIAL AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT: Chairperson, first of all, allow me to thank everybody who participated in this debate. I also wish to thank the hon Mr Mkhaliphi, the chairperson of the select committee, and all other members of that committee for the support and co- operation they extended to the department and the Ministry for Provincial and Local Government.

Apart from comments on the content of the proposed amendments, advice was given by various speakers to the department and the Ministry. I want to assure them that we have taken that advice to heart and, where necessary, we will act on that.

I note that the hon Mr Durr has problems with the consultation process. He refers to the FFC as one of the bodies that were not consulted. Of course there is no basis in fact in that allegation. [Interjections.] I do not know about the internal problems of the FFC. What I am talking about is the FFC’s having responded in writing to Parliament and saying that they have been consulted. Also, the ratepayers were actually invited and they appeared before the portfolio committee to make submissions. [Interjections.] I doubt if they have appointed Mr Durr as their spokesperson. In any case, if they appointed him, they should not pay him because he has misrepresented their case.

I also note that the hon member C Botha has difficulties with voting in favour of the proposed amendments. But I suspect that there are enough people of goodwill in the House, and the Bill will go through. I wish to thank members for their co-operation. [Applause.]

Debate concluded.

Bill agreed to in accordance with section 75 of the Constitution.

                     BROADCASTING AMENDMENT BILL

            (Consideration of Bill and of Report thereon)

The MINISTER OF COMMUNICATIONS: Chairperson and hon members, a few weeks ago, on 23 October, I presented the Broadcasting Amendment Bill for deliberation in the National Assembly and the majority of parties accepted it. Reflections on the challenges we face as a country and the necessary means needed to overcome them had resulted, in great measure, in what we call in Afrikaans ``toenadering’’ [seeking common ground] amongst the various language speakers of our country.

In my presentation to the Assembly I highlighted the fact that the Bill was indeed a product of serious engagement amongst various stakeholders, although at times there were attempts to divert us from the critical issues at hand.

When we presented the Bill for public discussion we were accused of harbouring ill intentions to take over control of the SABC and turn it into a state broadcaster. In some quarters this view still persists, irrespective of us having clarified from the outset that we were ready to receive inputs and engage with stakeholders to find mechanisms and formulations that are acceptable to all concerned, and having accepted some of these in the final version of this Bill in the Assembly.

An example of this view that deserves national attention was expressed by a well-known journalist, Max du Preez, who charged that:

The public broadcaster does not belong to you …

Meaning me -

… or your Government, nor should it be answerable to you. It belongs to us citizens and the licence holders.

Indeed, I believe that the broadcaster does not belong to me or to my Government. What is important, though, is that Max, like previously advantaged South Africans, does not believe that my Government is also his Government or their Government, whether they voted for it or not. If they are South Africans, then it is their Government. I am also a citizen and also a licence holder. Therefore, the public broadcaster belongs to all of us. As long as this Government is in office, I know it will continue to govern in the interests of all and not of some.

Indeed, there are certain principles that are clearly non-negotiable, especially in regard to the role of the broadcasting sector in promoting and protecting the rights of all South Africans, as enshrined in the Bill of Rights. Our position that the broadcasting system should seek to promote the national interests of the Republic, as represented by the Constitution, remains unchanged even today.

Others, like the DP, have argued that there is no need for the Broadcasting Amendment Bill. They argue that all we need now is the converged communications Act that will separate regulation of transmission from regulation of content. We agree with the general argument for the need to deal with the convergence of broadcasting, information technology, telecommunications and new media. We have spoken on numerous occasions about the work we are doing to prepare for the convergence of these sectors. Only two weeks ago I received detailed reports from two advisory bodies that were tasked to make policy recommendations to Government. One report dealt with digital broadcasting within the context of convergence and the other dealt with the production and display of South African content in the future.

Those who argue, such as the DP does, that we should ignore the present realities and rush to usher in converged digital systems that are lightly regulated - if regulated at all - miss some of the fundamental issues that we must tackle today in order to lay foundations for the future. Our work to restructure the communications sectors like broadcasting and telecommunications, symbolised by this amendment Bill and the recently passed Telecommunications Amendment Bill, are building blocks to a converged future.

It makes no sense to converge industries dominated by a single player inasmuch as it makes no sense to converge players that are not regulated in a similar manner. Government took a conscious decision to liberalise the telecommunications industry in order to allow for managed competition, the growth of the sector and investments in infrastructure. The establishment of the necessary infrastructure will ensure competition in the converged services.

Similarly, the Broadcasting Amendment Bill requires all operators to hold a licence and to compete under similar conditions. This will establish certainty that will foster investment in services and in infrastructure. The requirement that all operators must hold licences enables us as a country to impose obligations about the nature and the quantity of South African content that we want displayed in our broadcasting system. These obligations must be shouldered by the operators, even in the converged future, if our culture is to be protected and to be celebrated.

We must all accept that communications policy cannot be driven by technology only, but must be related to real needs. People’s needs must drive us. In the broadcasting sector there are real needs that have not been addressed. The infrastructure is deployed in such a way that it favours the cities at the expense of rural areas. Not all South Africans can receive services of their choice because of the infrastructure backlogs.

Even those South Africans who receive services still do not find services in the languages of their choice. It is therefore important that as a country we address these real needs. We cannot allow ourselves to be dazzled by technology and forget that our role as people’s representatives is to ensure the delivery of meaningful services in an inclusive way to all South Africans.

There is still a need to arrive at some form of consensus that at no stage was the regulation of broadcasting informed only by technical considerations. There has always been a wider, more encompassing reason why broadcasting should be regulated beyond the capacity of the airwaves to carry many channels. The broadcasting industry is an important cultural, social and economic player. These activities need some form of regulation in order to arrive at desired policy objectives, including the protection and reflection of South African culture; the protection of children and minors from exposure to violence, sex and nudity; the protection of South African broadcasting entities in a global world and the availability of channels to all sectors of our population for their informed democratic participation.

As the DP will know, the market has its own failures. Society must intervene through regulation to protect those who are in need of protection in case of market failures. In broadcasting, market failures manifest themselves in many ways, including the inability of South African programmes to compete with foreign programmes at this particular stage in time - this does not mean that in the future we should not be able to say there should be a free-for-all - the unavailability of services to those whom advertisers consider as not desirable markets, like some of you and I, and the lack of universal access to services. In the final analysis, analysis must bear in mind that we are enjoined by the Constitution to regulate broadcasting to ensure plurality of views and in the public interest for nation-building. These considerations will be as relevant in the future as they are today, irrespective of the technological advances that may come our way.

The fact that in the end consensus was reached on a wide range of issues is a clear vindication of the commitment of our Government and people to upholding the principles of democracy above sound bites and sensationalism.

Hon members, in the same spirit in which we tabled this Bill for deliberation in the National Assembly, we hereby present before you the outcome of a vigorous consultative policy process for your consideration.

Concern has been expressed about the potential dilution of the powers of the Regulator, who is constitutionally empowered to issue broadcasting licences. The Bill addresses this concern adequately. It provides for the Regulator to monitor and to enforce the charter of the public broadcaster. It provides for all operators to seek licences and authorisation prior to commencement of their operations. It therefore places all operators under the regulatory scheme of the Regulator. The procedures for the granting of additional pay licences are catered for, thus allowing competition in the sector.

The Bill also brings greater clarity by categorising different licences in accordance with the services provided. In this particular respect we wish to thank those that made technical inputs, such as MultiChoice, M-Net, Orbicom, Sentech and Telkom, as well as the SABC and Icasa, and bringing about this clarity.

The Bill also provides for the implementation of the conversion and corporatisation of the SABC. It includes a charter, as well as accountability and compliance mechanisms. It strengthens the role of the publicly selected board in terms of governance, as well as the role of Icasa in terms of regulation, licensing and monitoring.

The split of the SABC into two divisions, difficult as it may be, allows us to have the SABC’s commercial activity able to compete with others fairly, so that there is no perception that the SABC’s commercial activity is subsidised by Government. Secondly, any funds for the public broadcasting service from the fiscus are accounted for properly in terms of the PMFA.

To ensure delivery by the public broadcaster on its mandate, it is now required by law that the SABC prepares and submits to the Regulator policies that will ensure compliance with the Regulator’s licence conditions as well as objectives of the Broadcasting Act.

The Board of the SABC must ensure public participation in the development of policies and institute regular and effective means to solicit public opinion about its programming and give due consideration to that public input. The SABC must also develop its own code of conduct to ensure that the corporation complies with the constitutional principle of equality and equitable treatment of all people, all languages and the rights of all to information. The SABC is expected to strive to provide for a wide range of audience interests, beliefs and expressions and a high standard of accuracy, fairness and impartiality must be adhered to.

This Bill also provides for the establishment of regional services within the SABC as entities under the full control of the SABC board. These television services that will broadcast regionally in languages appropriate to the regions achieve one of the founding principles of the Constitution. This not only gives greater coverage to indigenous languages, but also recognises the cultural diversity and needs of our people and enriches our society.

This Bill also states that the regional services should receive grants from the state and that revenue can also be drawn from sponsorships, donations and other grants.

In conclusion, I must repeat that this Bill is about real issues, real people and their real needs. We have sought to ensure that the broadcasting system as a whole contributes to making a difference in people’s lives by allowing for a reflection of their reality and enhancement of their empowerment so that they can participate in sociopolitical discussions in order to shape the future of this country and its people. [Applause.]

Mrs C NKUNA: Eka Mutshami wa xitulu, muchaviseki Holobye wa Nhlanganiso, yena manana Dr Matsepe-Casaburi ni vatirhikulobye, inkomu. Vumbiwa ra hina ri pfumelelana ni timfanelo ta vanhu ku ya hi tindzimi hi ku hambana- hambana ka tona ngopfu-ngopfu tindzimi leti nga twiwiki kumbe ku vonaka lomu ka switwakarisi swo fana na thelevhixini. Vuhaxi byin’wana ni byin’wana lebyi tlakusaka ririmi ra xinghezi byi siya tin’wana tindzimi bya tsandzeka ku hlanganisa timfanelo ni swilaveko swa Vumbiwa [Interjections.] (Translation of Tsonga paragraph follows.)

[Mrs C NKUNA: Hon Chairperson, hon Minister of Communications Dr Matsepe- Casaburri, and hon members, I thank you. Our Constitution allows human rights in accordance with different languages, especially languages that are not used in electronic media, such as television. Every broadcast promotes the English language and neglects other languages and by so doing fails to fulfil the rights and needs of the Constitution. [Interjections.]]

Ms J L KGOALE: Chairperson, may we raise a concern about the interpreting.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Hon member, indeed, according to my records here the hon member could be speaking either English or Xitsonga and, of course, democratically she has actually chosen Xitsonga. Now, I wonder how the desk can help me because it is true that we do not get any interpreting. I understand that they are looking into that. [Interjections.]

Mrs C NKUNA: Chairperson, I do not know, maybe something has just happened. I did communicate with the interpreter. I gave him my speech.

A ndzi tivi ku ri ku humelela yini. [I do not know what happened.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES (Mr M J MAHLANGU): Hon member, I understand. I am told by the desk that indeed that was arranged. They are trying to check as to what is happening.

Mrs C NKUNA: Mutshami wa xitulu, ndzi nga ya emahlweni. [Chairperson, can I continue?]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES (Mr M J MAHLANGU): I think the hon member can continue. The interpreter is coming.

Vuhaxi byin’wana ni byin’wana lebyi tlakusaka ririmi ra xinghezi byi siya tin’wana tindzimi bya tsandzeka ku hlanganisa timfanelo kumbe swilaveko swa vanhu. PanSALB, hi vulavisisi bya yona yi kombisa leswaku vanhu vo hlaya, ku ringana 85%, va xifundha xa Afrika-Dzonga va tsakela ku tirhisa ririmi ku tirhisa ririmi ra manana loko va vulavula. Na mina muaki na mutshami wa Afrika-Dzonga, ndzi twa ndzi oloveriwa swinene namuntlha loko ndzi vulavula hi ririmi ra manana ku nga Xitsonga.

Xitsonga hi rin’wana ra tindzimi leti ndzawulo ya swa vuhaxi yi nga tilemukiki. Yi ta va mhaka yo tsakisa ngopfu loko tinxaka hinkwato ta Afrika-Dzonga ti nga kuma ku yingisela mahungu ni ku vona minongonoko yin’wana hi tindzimi ta vona. Vanhu va navela ku tiva hi nhluvuko etikweni ra vona. Va tivisa ku yini nhluvuko lowu loko ririmi leri tirhisiwaka ri nga ri leri twisisiwaka eka vayingiseri?

Demokhirasi a yi vuli ku yingisela ntsena, yi fambelana no vulavula munhu a twiwa. Yi fambelana no vona leswaku timfanelo ta vatirhi, vatsoniwa, vamanana ni vana swa landzeriwa. Ku hundzuluxiwa ka xiyenge xa 32 eka Nawu lowu swi ta endla leswaku hi fikelela swilaveko na swikombelo leswi. Swi ta endla leswaku vatsoniwa hi ku hamabna-hambana ka vona, swilaveko ni timfanelo ta vona swi landzeleriwa.

Loko hi vulavula hi ririmi, ri hlamusela leswaku hi hina vamani. Ri hlamusela hi ndhavuko ni ndzhaka ya hina. Ri hlamusela hi mintolovelo na maendlele. Xana hi hina vamani handle ka tindzimi ta hina? (Translation of Xitsonga paragraphs follows.)

[Every broadcast that promotes the English language and neglects other languages fails to satisfy the rights or needs of the people. PanSALB did some research and pointed out that 85% of people in South Africa prefer to make use of their mother tongue when they communicate. I, too, as a citizen of South Africa, feel comfortable today when I deliberate in my own mother tongue, namely Xitsonga.

Xitsonga is one of the languages that is not considered by the broadcasting corporation. It would be very good if speakers of all languages in South Africa could listen to news presentations and other programmes in their respective languages. People want to know about the developments that are taking place in their own country. How will people know about these developments if the language that is used is not understood by listeners.

Democracy does not refer to compliance alone, but includes communication, and one must be heard. It includes seeing to it that the rights of workers, the disabled, women and children should be fulfilled. The amendment of section 32 of this Act will enable us to achieve these needs and requests. This will enable all disabled people of all different categories to achieve their needs and rights.

When we speak a language, it explains who we are. It explains something of our tradition and heritage. It explains something of our habits and deeds. Who are we without our languages?]

The hon the Minister, when tabling this Bill, reaffirmed that the media is fundamental to democracy and a free media is an imperative. For the first time we are assured through law that the SABC will operate within a constitutional framework in its dealings with the public and their needs. This is the reason we need to regulate.

The underpinning logic for regulating broadcasting has always been larger than the mere allocation of frequencies which are public assets. History shows that broadcasting policy over the past 70 years and, hopefully for more years to come, has been influenced by societal needs. We are a country in transition, from apartheid to a mature democracy. As such, we have needs that are unique and deserving of policy interventions from time to time, to define the ends that will be in line with our democratic objectives.

In this, we are not different from all other countries that have sought to use broadcasting policy and legislation to protect and advance their national culture, protecting their homes from undesirable content that might reach their children through the media. There is a need for this Government to act consistently to build a united South Africa in which all its people feel accommodated. There is no more room for any consideration which places the interests of any language speaker above the interests of another language speaker. Those notions died with apartheid.

The lobbyists are invited to make an input in shaping the Public Service that they want. There is an avenue to enter the discussions and shape policies. They should utilise this opportunity and make their contributions in the discussions that will shape the services of the SABC.

In conclusion, I would like to take this opportunity to thank the Minister and the department for introducing this piece of legislation. I also thank the committee for their commitment and hard work shown during the deliberation on a Broadcasting Amendment Bill. It has been my pleasure working on this Bill, for this is something close to my heart, as I also belong to one of the minority cultures whose languages do not get broadcasting coverage. [Applause.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES (Mr M J MAHLANGU): Order! I just want to apologise profusely to hon members for that inconvenience. From the desk I am told that the Hansard was actually aware of this and unfortunately the person who was supposed to come and interpret did not turn up. A report is coming to that effect. We wish to apologise for that.

Mnr F ADAMS: Agb Voorsitter, Minister en lede, die Nuwe NP glo dat aansienlike vordering gemaak is om die Wysigingswetsontwerp op die Uitsaaiwese in oorstemming te bring met die Grondwet.

Die Nuwe NP is bly dat die gewysigde wetsontwerp ook voorsiening sal maak vir openbare deelname in die opstel van beleid. Die 2002 Wysigingswetsontwerp op die Uitsaaiwese het heelwat polemiek in die koerante uitgelok, rondom die kwessie van die SAUK se redaksionele onafhanklikheid. Die Regering se voorneme om nuwe kanale te skep om inheemse tale te bevorder is prysenswaardig. Die Regering het uiteindelik besef dat die huidige stand die grondwetlike status van hierdie tale skend.

‘n Openbare uitsaaier moet regverdige en billike verteenwoordiging van tale in sy volle reeks van programme verseker. ‘n Mens hoef nie ‘n Afrika kulturele nasionalis te wees om te besef dat daar ‘n groot massa Afrika- menings is wat ‘n uitsaaiteenwoordigheid benodig nie. Wanneer jy egter drie kanale het wat daaraan toegewy is om nasionaal uit te saai en jy het 11 nasionale tale wat geakkommodeer moet word, word die kern meer ingewikkeld as die ideaal.

Daar is kommersiële realiteite in ‘n globale konteks waar televisie moet reageer op kommersieel-gedrewe mededingers. Die Nuwe NP se uitgangspunt is dat die SAUK die infrastruktuur en bedrewendheid het om aan ons ‘n stelsel te verskaf wat ‘n maksimum aan taal- en kultuurvryheid en uitdrukking sal toelaat - die voorvereiste vir versoening. Ons benadering is ook in eenstemming met beginsels en riglyne van die nuwe uitsaaiwet. Vir die tegnologie-begunstigdes het kulturele en taaldiversiteit beteken: dat die eter so wyd soos God se genade is''. Die moderne tegnologieis ‘n gawe van God om te lewe en te laat lewe’’ vir die voorsiening van kulturele Lebensraum in ‘n tyd van onophoudelike konflik op ander vlakke. Tegnologie laat ons toe om te differensieer sonder diskriminasie.

Ons bedank die Minister en sy span en almal wat hierdie wetgewing moontlik gemaak het. Die Nuwe NP sal hierdie wetsontwerp steun. [Applous.] (Translation of Afrikaans speech follows.)

[Mr F ADAMS: Hon Chairperson, Minister and members, the New NP believes that considerable progress has been made in bringing the Broadcasting Amendment Bill in line with the Constitution.

The New NP is glad that the amended Bill will also provide for public participation in the making of policy. The 2002 Broadcasting Amendment Bill evoked quite a lot of controversy in the newspapers, regarding the question of the SABC’s editorial independence. The Government’s intention of creating new channels to promote indigenous languages is praiseworthy. At last the Government has realised that the status quo violates the constitutional status of these languages.

A public broadcaster must ensure just and fair representation of languages in its full series of programmes. One does not have to be an African cultural nationalist to realise that there is a great mass of African opinion which requires a broadcasting presence. However, when one has three channels which are dedicated to national broadcasting and one has 11 national languages that have to be accommodated, the heart of the matter becomes more complicated than the ideal.

There are commercial realities in a global context where television must react to commercially driven competitors. The New NP’s point of departure is that the SABC has the infrastructure and skill to provide us with a system which will allow a maximum of language and cultural freedom and expression - the prerequisite for reconciliation.

Our approach is also in line with the principles and guidelines of the new broadcasting legislation. For the technology advantaged cultural and language diversity means: ``dat die eter so wyd soos God se genade is’’ [that the ether is as all-encompassing as the grace of God]. Modern technology is a gift from God to live and let live for the provision of cultural Lebensraum during a time of continual conflict at other levels. Technology allows us to differentiate without discrimination.

We thank the Minister and his team and everyone who made this legislation possible. The New NP will support this Bill. [Applause.]]

Ms N D NTWANAMBI: Chairperson, I will assume that after having heard the Minister and the two other speakers, Ms Botha’s party will change their mind. [Interjections.]

Chairperson, Minister and members, various nations have various values and attitudes that are unique to them, their own talents and their own contents, which are reflected in the programmes broadcast on their respective national television services. For instance, one cannot go to France and expect to see Zimbabwean cultural content dominating their television service, nor go to China and find South African talent promoted more than Chinese talent. One would never find the national news in Dubai read in Xhosa. [Interjections.] That is simply because various nations see the importance of reflecting their respective national values and attitudes on their television and, most importantly, in their national languages.

Unfortunately, with our broadcasting service a lot of that is not reflected. It is therefore important for our national broadcasters to encourage the development of our own talent and content, reflecting our own values and attitudes. Furthermore, prioritising the development of our local expression and providing a variety of programmes in the various languages of the country is critical.

One would have to look at why we focus on public broadcasting. The amending Bill provides for a charter of public broadcasting. The charter outlines the mandate of the public broadcasting system. In short, the SABC is required to be an organ of society that ensures the forging of a South African identity and citizenship. The charter therefore declares that the programming of the SABC must, firstly, reflect South African values and attitudes; secondly, display South African talent; and thirdly, offer a variety of South African views and advance the national public interest.

This is very important for our democracy, so that future generations, our children, will know that they are born of a nation that takes pride in itself, as the media has a way of influencing how people think and view things. If we americanise our media, our children will grow up confused, thinking that to be important as a person one must imitate what Americans do. This Bill also provides for the implementation of the conversion and corporatisation of the SABC. That does not mean that people will be out of jobs or that the SABC is being privatised. We tried our best in the committee. The department gave us examples and we are satisfied that there is no restructuring nor privatisation that is taking place. Maybe people will gain imisebenzi [jobs] because I will also be one of the broadcasters. [Interjections.]

Further, and most importantly, the Bill provides that the SABC must develop its own code of conduct to ensure that the corporation complies with the constitutional principles of equality and the equitable treatment of all people and languages, and the rights of all information. That is fundamental, in particular to our human rights.

This Bill provides for the strengthening of the role of the publicly selected board in terms of governance. That board must ensure public participation in the development of policies. I think the chairperson has called on lobbyists to make further submissions, and here we refer to the institute’s regular and effective means to solicit public opinion about its programming. I do not think anyone can dispute the importance of public participation. That is why we are all here.

The Bill further strengthens the role of Icasa in terms of the regulation - I think I heard the Minister mentioning that as well - licensing and monitoring.

In conclusion, I cannot begin to stress the importance of the role of broadcasting services and the influence they have over how people think and perceive things. How they use that power is very, very important. [Applause.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES (Mr M J MAHLANGU): Order! The gentleman who was going to speak on behalf of the IFP told me that I should apologise for his inability to partake in the debate. He said that the IFP was going to support the Bill with some comments that the state should guard against interference with editorial and reporting independence. The fear was that legitimacy and integrity should not be reduced.

Mr L G LEVER: Chairperson, in the relatively short history of our democracy there have been some attempts to reinterpret section 192 of our Constitution. For those who do not know, section 192 of the Constitution provides that national legislation must establish an independent authority to regulate broadcasting in the public interest, and to ensure fairness and a diversity of views broadly representing South African society.

When this Bill was first introduced in the National Assembly, the portfolio committee was confronted with the position that the SABC Board would have to submit their editorial policy to the hon the Minister. The only motivation for this requirement that would have any credibility is that there was a desire for executive control of the SABC’s editorial policy. This would have been a clear contravention of both the letter and the spirit of section 192 of the Constitution. Thankfully, after an exhaustive process in the portfolio committee, this provision is no longer part of the Bill. However, one cannot fail to question the motive for putting it into the Bill in the first place.

The DP believes that the contemplated articles of association for the corporatised SABC should be submitted to some form of public scrutiny and parliamentary approval, and not simply be left in the hands of the hon the Minister. The DP would require a similar process if there was, at any stage, a contemplated change in the share capital or sale of shares in the SABC.

In our view the SABC already enjoys a dominant position in the field of broadcasting, yet the new section 22A requires the SABC to apply for additional licences to enable it to broadcast regionally. In the event that regional licences are awarded to the SABC, it will also enjoy the benefit of public funding. We then need to ask: What about the concept of diversity that is enshrined in section 192 of the Constitution?

Diverse languages can be accommodated by entities other than the SABC. Further, it is our view that the council’s power to delegate its authority, as set out in the schedules, is too widely framed. For all these reasons the DA will oppose this Bill. [Applause.]

Mr G A LUCAS: Chairperson, hon Minister, and hon delegates, it is a pity that I am sitting next to two members of the DP - in fact, there are three of them. I do not want to be associated with the DP. It is just that I am sitting here and there is nothing I can do. It is also unfortunate that we have people who continuously oppose anything that Government does. One begins to question their motives. What is good for South Africa is bad for them. [Interjections.] What is bad for South Africa is good for them. [Interjections.] This is what their leader said at some stage.

If there is any past that humanity would like to forget, in South Africa it would obviously be the apartheid past. Throughout the world it would be the colonialism and imperialism in Africa and parts of the southern part of the world. Gradually in South Africa we are on the path to completely destroy the remnants of the apartheid legacy.

In this process of change there will be those who oppose such changes precisely because they want to cling to the past, however in a modified fashion. Such people are today represented by the DP, or its fashionable new name, the Democratic Alliance. [Interjections.]

An HON MEMBER: Stick to the Bill.

Mr G A LUCAS: Chairperson, the DP argues that regulating broadcasting in the face of technological changes and advances is wrong. They further state that now that we can have as many channels as possible there should be no regulation at all.

In short they say that people should do as they wish; any Tom, Dick and Harry can have access to channels - it is not a problem; abuse of our airwaves is not a problem; if there are racist channels it is not a problem; if there are right-wing lunatic channels it is also not a problem; or if our children watch pornography that is shown during the day it is not a problem. To the DP it is fine. It is good for South Africa. It is good for the DP, because then definitely they will corrupt our people and corrupt our minds. [Interjections.]

What the DP forgets is that their approach is a recipe for disaster, precisely because those with money will abuse a regime of no regulation to misinform and mislead our people, and those who are poor and vulnerable will have no say under such circumstances. We cannot take the DP seriously, because the recent floor-crossing process by councillors has reaffirmed our view that their policies are absurd and ludicrous to most. Only Tony Leon and hon Mr Lever understand those policies.

In fact, now they are saying that the people do not understand their policies very well and they will therefore have to redefine and refine their policies in preparation for the 2004 elections. That is what the hon Tony Leon was saying yesterday. What a shame! If one does not understand one’s policies, why does one want to engage in public debate? They belong nowhere but in the dustbin of history.

This is a revolutionary Bill. It requires revolutionaries and dedicated cadres to ensure that it succeeds in its clear intentions and mandate. We all need to respond to the clarion call that all of us need to become agents for change, volunteers for reconstruction and development. All of us in this House including the DP, must ask ourselves: What is it that we need to do to ensure that this Bill is implemented to its logical conclusion?

South African citizens should not be confused by the DP-DA tendency to create fear and suspicion in the minds of our people that our Government cannot be trusted. We ought to reaffirm to them that indeed our Government was democratically elected and therefore given a clear mandate to effect changes and ensure that social transformation does take place. [Interjections.] Whether the DP or the DA likes it or not, we will proceed with change. If it is a bitter pill to swallow, they will have to swallow it, because today we are governing and we will govern correctly. The ANC will continue to govern. The floor-crossing has once more reaffirmed that they belong nowhere but where no person can go to, because their policies do not respond to our people’s needs. Their policies do not respond to the needs of the poor. They only serve those with capital. They only serve the West because they are the spokespersons for the West in South Africa.

No one can guarantee our national interest except our democratically elected Government and legislatures. No one elects the media bosses but our people who, after every five years, elect our Government and reaffirm the legitimacy of the ANC.

We also need to reaffirm to our people that we are country in transition from apartheid to a mature democracy, so the lunatics that are found in the DP are one of the things that we need to accept. Ours is a new country which requires decisive policy interventions in order to ensure that we meet our democratic objectives. Accordingly, there is nothing wrong in using our broadcasting policies and legislation to protect and advance our democratic values by ensuring that our broadcasters remain within the realm of our Constitution in terms of our developmental objectives, culture, language, tradition, etc.

In adhering to our democratic principle of popular participation, this legislation makes it compulsory for the SABC Board to ensure popular participation in development. [Time expired.] [Applause.]

The MINISTER OF COMMUNICATIONS: Chairperson, I would like to thank the members of this House who clearly have paid attention to the content of this Bill, because it is a very important Bill for South Africa. It will really revolutionise our society, and particularly public participation in national life. It is therefore very important for this House, in particular, where delegates represent the people on the ground through the provinces. I find it particularly satisfying to have seen this kind of engagement. I would like to thank the members for their engagement with this Bill.

I would like to tell Mr Adams of the New NP that I certainly like the phrase that he uses when he says that technology should be used to differentiate, but not to discriminate. It is important that we use technology as a tool to improve the conditions, especially of those most disadvantaged. I appreciate the fact that people do make the distinction.

With regard to hon Bhengu who was not here: I am very happy that at least the IFP will support this Bill. [Laughter.] But I would like to say that he can rest assured: under this Minister, under this Government there is no way that we can turn back to where we come from. We are the ones that fought against interference in the policies and the work of the SABC. We are the ones that defended that SABC and defended the rights of the people with regard to that SABC.

Vorentoe sal ons altyd gaan. Agtertoe sal ons nooit gaan nie. [Tussenwerpsels.] [We shall always go forwards. We shall never go backwards. [Interjections.]]

Therefore it is very important that he should rest assured that there was never any intention to interfere, particularly under this Minister, who has had experience of that SABC, and who did not allow Government, even the previous Government, to interfere. Whatever interference that was taking place happened underground, and that they sometimes did quite a bit.

I would like to tell Mr Lever and his party that we contributed to section

1. I read it and reread it at the time that the Constitution was drafted. What I see is that there is always a motive ascribed to the executive to control. No matter what this Government does, there is a sinister cynicism and suspicion of the executive. When it is healthy, I have no problem with that. But it cannot always be present. It is something I could hear in the way many members of the House were expressing themselves. I think as South Africans who ought to be coming together, we should be able to have less and less of this cynicism, but indeed objective criticism of what the executive does.

However, because we have the kind of Constitution and the kind of ruling party we have, we will always defend their democratic right to oppose. But I hope he does not deny us the democratic right to make sure that they will not succeed in their opposition of what we do. [Interjections.] Because that democratic right is also enshrined for us. Regardless of where we stand as South Africans, we all need to be, in the words of the last speaker, ``volunteers for reconstruction and development’’. This Bill indeed gives us an opportunity to ask: How do we make this South Africa better, using the public airwaves, which belong to all of us, to make this a better South Africa, a prosperous South Africa, a South Africa in which all of us can live, even if we have different views?

The question was asked: How can we ensure diversity by giving everything to the SABC? There has been no suggestion as to how we would be able to get African languages on the air, unless they were funded by the state. Are we being told to fund private organisations to go and do programmes in Tsonga, in Venda and in Sotho, but not give such money to others?

I think what we are doing is to say we recognise that until that growth has happened, we will have to continue to support this constitutional imperative of ensuring that this diversity in culture and in language is given some impetus through funding by the fiscus. It is the responsibility of all of us to ensure that when that is done, such funds are used not to suppress competition, not to suppress diversity or views, but in fact to make those things flourish.

I would like to thank all members for having supported this Bill. [Applause.]

Debate concluded.

Bill, subject to proposed amendments, agreed to in accordance with section 75 of the Constitution (Democratic Party dissenting).

The Council adjourned at 19:57. ____

            ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS

                     WEDNESDAY, 6 NOVEMBER 2002

ANNOUNCEMENTS:

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces:

1. The Speaker and the Chairperson:

 (1)    The Joint Tagging Mechanism (JTM) on 6 November 2002 in terms of
     Joint Rule 160(6), classified the following Bill as a money Bill:


     (i)     Adjustments Appropriation Bill  [B  66  -  2002]  (National
          Assembly - sec 77).


 (2)    The following Bill was introduced by the Minister of Finance  in
     the National Assembly on 6 November 2002 and referred to the  Joint
     Tagging Mechanism (JTM) for classification in terms of  Joint  Rule
     160:


     (i)     Revenue  Laws  Amendment  Bill  [B  67  -  2002]  (National
          Assembly - sec 77).


     The Bill has been referred to the Portfolio  Committee  on  Finance
     of the National Assembly.


     In terms of Joint Rule 154 written views on the  classification  of
     the Bills may be submitted to the  Joint  Tagging  Mechanism  (JTM)
     within three parliamentary working days.

National Council of Provinces:

1. The Chairperson:

 The following papers have been tabled  and  are  now  referred  to  the
 relevant committees as mentioned below:


 (1)    The following paper is  referred  to  the  Select  Committee  on
     Security and Constitutional Affairs:


     Report  and  Financial  Statements  of  the  National   Prosecuting
     Authority for 2001-2002,  including  the  Report  of  the  Auditor-
     General on the Financial Statements for 2001-2002 [RP 197-2002].


 (2)    The following papers are referred to  the  Select  Committee  on
     Security and Constitutional Affairs for consideration and report:


     (a)     Treaties between the Government of the  Republic  of  South
          Africa and the Governments of the Arab Republic of Egypt,  the
          Democratic People's Republic of Algeria, the Federal  Republic
          of Nigeria and the People's Republic of China on  Extradition,
          tabled in terms of section 231(2) of the Constitution, 1996.


     (b)     Explanatory Memorandum to the Treaties.


     (c)     Treaties between the Government of the  Republic  of  South
          Africa and the Governments of the Arab Republic of Egypt,  the
          Democratic People's Republic of Algeria, the Federal  Republic
          of Nigeria and the French Republic on Mutual Legal Assistance,
          tabled in terms of section 231(2) of the Constitution, 1996.


     (d)     Explanatory Memorandum to the Treaties.


 (3)    The following papers are referred to  the  Select  Committee  on
     Finance:


     (a)     Medium Term Budget Policy Statement 2002 [RP 222-2002].


     (b)     Adjustments Appropriation Bill [B 66 - 2002].


     (c)     Adjusted Estimates of National Expenditure  2002  [RP  223-
          2002]


 (4)    The following papers are referred to  the  Select  Committee  on
     Economic and Foreign Affairs:


     (a)      Report  and  Financial  Statements  of   the   Competition
          Commission for 2001-2002, including the Report of the Auditor-
          General on the Financial Statements  for  2001-2002  [RP  144-
          2002].


     (b)     Report of the Export Credit Insurance Corporation of  South
          Africa Limited for 2001-2002.


     (c)     Report and Financial Statements of the Support Program  for
          Industrial Innovation for 2001-2002.


 (5)    The following paper is  referred  to  the  Select  Committee  on
     Public Services:


     Bilateral Air Services Agreement  between  the  Government  of  the
     Republic of South Africa and the  Government  of  the  Republic  of
     Mali, tabled in terms of section 231(3) of the Constitution, 1996.


 (6)    The following paper is  referred  to  the  Select  Committee  on
     Labour and Public Enterprises:


     Report  and  Financial  Statements   of   the   National   Economic
     Development and Labour Council (NEDLAC) for 2001-2002.

TABLINGS:

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces:

Papers:

1. The Speaker and the Chairperson:

 Report and Financial Statements of the Office  of  the  Auditor-General
 for 2001-2002 [RP 221-2002].

1. The Minister of Trade and Industry:

 Report and Financial Statements of the National Gambling Board for 2001-
 2002, including the Report of  the  Auditor-General  on  the  Financial
 Statements for 2001-2002.

COMMITTEE REPORTS:

National Council of Provinces:

1. Report of the Select Committee on Local Government and Administration on the Disaster Management Bill [B 21B - 2002] (National Assembly - sec 76), dated 6 November 2002:

   The Select Committee on Local Government and Administration, having considered the subject of the Disaster Management Bill [B 21B - 2002] (National Assembly - sec 76), referred to it, reports the Bill without amendment.

2. Report of the Select Committee on Local Government and Administration on the Local Government Laws Amendment Bill [B 61B - 2002] (National Assembly - sec 75), dated 6 November 2002:

   The Select Committee on Local Government and Administration, having considered the subject of the Local Government Laws Amendment Bill [B 61B - 2002] (National Assembly - sec 75), referred to it, reports that it has agreed to the Bill.

   The Committee urges the Department of Provincial and Local Government to reconsider the time period of three months provided for in Clause 45, which deals with arrears by councillors in respect of rates and services, as the respective periods are deemed to be too long. The Department should at the same time consider providing the same period for staff members of a municipality.

3. Report of the Select Committee on Security and Constitutional Affairs on the Judicial Matters Amendment Bill [B 55B - 2002] (National Assembly - sec 75), dated 6 November 2002:

   The Select Committee on Security and Constitutional Affairs, having considered the subject of the Judicial Matters Amendment Bill [B 55B - 2002] (National Assembly - sec 75), referred to it, reports that it has agreed to the Bill.

4. Report of the Select Committee on Economic and Foreign Affairs on the Merchandise Marks Amendment Bill [B 63B - 2002] (National Assembly - sec 75), dated 6 November 2002:

   The Select Committee on Economic and Foreign Affairs, having considered the subject of the Merchandise Marks Amendment Bill [B 63B - 2002] (National Assembly - sec 75), referred to it, reports that it has agreed to the Bill.

5. Report of the Select Committee on Economic and Foreign Affairs on the Patents Amendment Bill [B 64 - 2002] (National Assembly - sec 75), dated 6 November 2002:

   The Select Committee on Economic and Foreign Affairs, having considered the subject of the Patents Amendment Bill [B 64 - 2002] (National Assembly - sec 75), referred to it, reports that it has agreed to the Bill.

                   THURSDAY, 7 NOVEMBER 2002
   

ANNOUNCEMENTS:

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces:

1. The Speaker and the Chairperson:

 (1)    The Minister for Provincial and Local Government on  7  November
     2002  submitted  a  draft  of  the  Local   Government:   Municipal
     Structures Second Amendment Bill, 2002, as well as  the  memorandum
     explaining the objects of the proposed legislation, to the  Speaker
     and the Chairperson in terms of Joint Rule 159. The draft has  been
     referred  to  the  Portfolio  Committee  on  Provincial  and  Local
     Government  and  the  Select  Committee  on  Local  Government  and
     Administration by the Speaker and  the  Chairperson,  respectively,
     in accordance with Joint Rule 159(2).

National Council of Provinces:

1. The Chairperson:

 (1)    Message from National Assembly to National Council of Provinces:


     Bill  passed  by  National  Assembly  on  7   November   2002   and
     transmitted for concurrence:


     (i)     Explosives Bill [B 43B - 2002]  (National  Assembly  -  sec
          75)  (referred   to   Select   Committee   on   Security   and
          Constitutional Affairs).


 (2)    Bills passed by National Council  of  Provinces  on  7  November
     2002: To be submitted to President of the Republic for assent:


     (i)     Education Laws Amendment Bill  [B  31B  -  2002]  (National
          Assembly - sec 76).


     (ii)    Local  Government  Laws  Amendment  Bill  [B  61B  -  2002]
          (National Assembly - sec 75).

TABLINGS:

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces:

Papers:

1. The Speaker and the Chairperson:

 (a)    Report of the Auditor-General on the Lebowa  Mineral  Trust  for
     the period 1996-1997, 1997-1998, 1998-1999 [RP 189-2002].


 (b)    Report of the Auditor-General on the Lebowa  Mineral  Trust  for
     the period 1988-1989, 1989-1990, 1990-1991,  1991-1992,  1992-1993,
     1993-1994, 1994-1995, 1995-1996 [RP 190-2002].

COMMITTEE REPORTS: National Council of Provinces:

1. Report of the Select Committee on Security and Constitutional Affairs on the Intelligence Services Control Amendment Bill [B 50B - 2002] (National Assembly - sec 75), dated 6 November 2002:

   The Select Committee on Security and Constitutional Affairs, having considered the subject of the Intelligence Services Control Amendment Bill [B 50B - 2002] (National Assembly - sec 75), referred to it, reports the Bill with proposed amendments, as follows:

   CLAUSE 3

   1. On page 4, in line 23, after “Service” to insert “,the Academy and Comsec”.

   CLAUSE 7

   1. On page 5, in line 31, after “7” to insert “(1).

   2. On page 5, in line 48, after “office” to insert:

      [: Provided that such remuneration shall be the same as that of the Public Protector appointed in terms of section 1A of the Public Protector Act, 1994 (Act No. 23 of 1994)]

2. Report of the Select Committee on Security and Constitutional Affairs on the National Strategic Intelligence Amendment Bill [B 51B - 2002] (National Assembly - sec 75), dated 6 November 2002:

   The Select Committee on Security and Constitutional Affairs, having considered the subject of the National Strategic Intelligence Amendment Bill [B 51B - 2002] (National Assembly - sec 75), referred to it, reports the Bill with proposed amendments, as follows:

   CLAUSE 3

   1. On page 3, in line 25, after “state;” to insert “or”.

   2. On page 3, in line 28, after “information” to insert “and intelligence”.

   3. On page 3, in line 35, after “Service” to insert “,the Service”.

   4. On page 3, in line 35, to omit “Department of Defence” and to substitute “National Defence Force”.

   5. On page 3, in line 36, after “Service” to insert “,the Service”.

   6. On page 3, in line 49, after “may” to insert “, in the prescribed manner,”.

   7. On page 4, in line 19, after “Minister” to insert:

      responsible for the relevant National Intelligence Structure

      CLAUSE 7

   8. On page 5, in line 2, after “may” to insert:

      , after consultation with the Joint Standing Committee on Intelligence

   9. On page 5, in line 4, after “information” to insert “and intelligence”.

   10. On page 5, from line 21, to omit subsection (4).

   11. On page 5, in line 38, after “regulation” to insert “only”.

3. Report of the Select Committee on Security and Constitutional Affairs on the Intelligence Services Bill [B 58B - 2002] (National Assembly - sec 75), dated 6 November 2002:

   The Select Committee on Security and Constitutional Affairs, having considered the subject of the Intelligence Services Bill [B 58B - 2002] (National Assembly - sec 75), referred to it, reports the Bill with proposed amendments, as follows:

   CLAUSE 10

   1. On page 6, in line 54, after “Director-General” to insert “concerned or the Chief Executive Officer”.

   2. On page 7, in line 7, to omit “done in consultation with the Intelligence Services Council” and to substitute:

      submitted to the Intelligence Services Council for consideration CLAUSE 20

   3. On page 11, in line 21, to omit “12” and to substitute “12(1), (2)(a) and (c).

   4. On page 11, in line 23, to omit “38” and to substitute “37”.

      CLAUSE 26

   5. On page 13, in line 20, after “member” to insert:

      without the permission of the Director-General or the Chief Executive Officer, as the case may be

      CLAUSE 35

   Clause rejected.

   CLAUSE 40

   Clause rejected.

   NEW CLAUSE

   1. That the following be a new Clause:

      Validation of misconduct proceedings

      39. Despite the repeal of the Bureau for State Security Act,   1978  (Act  No.  104  of  1978),  and  the  regulations   made   thereunder, the procedure followed by the Director-General  in   terms of the said regulations to-
      (a)    charge members with misconduct; and
      (b)    constitute a board of enquiry,
           which  was  provided  for  in  section   15   of   the
           Intelligence Services Act, 1994 (Act No. 38 of  1994),
           at any time from 1 January 1995 to 1 July  2001,  that
           would  have  been  lawful  if  the  Bureau  for  State
           Security Act, 1978, and those regulations had been  in
           force  at  the  time  when  it  was  done,  is  hereby
           validated and declared to have been lawfully done.
      

      CLAUSE 41

   2. On page 17, in line 51, to omit “shall” and to substitute “must”.

   3. On page 17, in line 53, to omit “shall” and to substitute “must”.

   4. On page 18, in line 16, after “Act” to insert:

      unless it is inconsistent with this Act

4. Report of the Select Committee on Security and Constitutional Affairs on the Electronic Communications Security (Pty) Ltd Bill [B 59B - 2002] (National Assembly - sec 75), dated 6 November 2002: The Select Committee on Security and Constitutional Affairs, having considered the subject of the Electronic Communications Security (Pty) Ltd Bill [B 59B - 2002] (National Assembly - sec 75), referred to it, reports the Bill with proposed amendments, as follows:

   CLAUSE 1

   1. On page 2, in line 25, to omit “of Intelligence” and to substitute:

      as defined in an Act of Parliament providing for the Intelligence Services

      CLAUSE 6

   2. On page 3, from line 23, to omit subsections (1) and (2) and to substitute:

      (1)(a) The Minister may, on the  recommendation  of  Comsec,
                  request the Minister of Trade and  Industry  to
                  declare the whole or part of a provision of the
                  Companies Act not applicable to Comsec.
          (b)      The request must be fully motivated.
      (2)    The Registrar of Companies must  publish  particulars
             about the  request  and  motivation  contemplated  in
             subsection (1) by notice in the Gazette, unless  such
             publication will compromise national security.
      
      
      CLAUSE 8
      

   3. On page 4, in line 31, to omit “approval” and to substitute “concurrence”.

   CLAUSE 18

   1. On page 7, in line 7, after “donations” to insert “and bequests”.

5. Report of the Select Committee on Security and Constitutional Affairs on the International Convention on the Suppression of Terrorist Bombings, dated 5 November 2002:

   The Select Committee on Security and Constitutional Affairs, having considered the request for approval by Parliament of the International Convention on the Suppression of Terrorist Bombings, referred to it, recommends that the Council, in terms of section 231(2) of the Constitution, approve the said Convention.

 Report to be considered.

1. Report of the Select Committee on Security and Constitutional Affairs on the International Convention for the Suppression of the Financing of Terrorism, dated 5 November 2002:

   The Select Committee on Security and Constitutional Affairs, having considered the request for approval by Parliament of the International Convention for the Suppression of the Financing of Terrorism, referred to it, recommends that the Council, in terms of section 231(2) of the Constitution, approve the said Convention.

 Report to be considered.

1. Report of the Select Committee on Security and Constitutional Affairs on the Protocol on the Control of Firearms, Ammunition and other Related Materials in the Southern African Development Community (SADC) Region, dated 5 November 2002:

   The Select Committee on Security and Constitutional Affairs, having considered the request for approval by Parliament of the Protocol on the Control of Firearms, Ammunition and other Related Materials in the Southern African Development Community (SADC) Region, referred to it, recommends that the Council, in terms of section 231(2) of the Constitution, approve the said Protocol.

 Report to be considered.