THURSDAY, 21 FEBRUARY 2002 __

          PROCEEDINGS OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
                                ____

The Council met at 14:03.

The Deputy Chairperson took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayers or meditation.

ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS - see col 000.

                          NOTICE OF MOTION

Mr P A MATTHEE: Mr Chairperson, I give notice that I shall move at the next sitting of the Council:

That the Council takes note that -

(1) the New NP has announced a national language committee to give the language debate a boost in Parliament and to afford voters a platform from which they can channel problems as well as make proposals;

(2) the language committee is under the distinguished patronage of the New NP leader, Mr Marthinus van Schalkwyk, Mr A E Van Niekerk, the New NP language ombudsman is the chairperson, and each province will nominate a representative;

(3) the language committee will perform the following functions -

   (a)  review existing New NP language policy on a regular basis;


   (b)  further develop internal language policy;


   (c)  promote language policy in each municipality;


   (d)  make recommendations and deal with language problems in  respect
       of Afrikaans and the other indigenous languages - internally and
       externally;


   (e)  popularise the promotion of Afrikaans and the  other  indigenous
       languages  amongst  parliamentary,  provincial  legislature  and
       municipal colleagues,  as in the case of the  debate  on  mother
       language that will follow later today;


   (f)  provide a postbox for language complaints from the public;


   (g)   provide  a  postbox  to  promote   projects   in   respect   of
       multilingualism at all three levels of  government  and  in  the
       private sector;


   (h)  strive for the establishment of a parliamentary  language  forum
       with multilingual representation;


   (i)  strengthen ties with other role-players who  are  earnest  about
       Afrikaans and other indigenous languages;


   (j)  promote and develop legislation;


   (k)  promote the credibility of PanSALB; and


   (l)  play an active role in the establishment of the  Commission  for
       the Promotion and Protection of Language, Religious and Cultural
       Communities.

                 NEVIRAPINE INTERVENTION IN GAUTENG

                         (Draft Resolution)

Mr K D S DURR: Chairperson, I move without notice:

That the Council -

(1) congratulates Mbhazima Shilowa, the Premier of Gauteng, on the bold stand that he and his government have taken on the question of nevirapine intervention in order to save and extend lives in that province, in spite of attempts by Minister Tshabalala-Msimang to denigrate and halt the premier’s efforts;

(2) salutes Mr Shilowa’s courage and calls on other provinces that are not yet providing nevirapine support for Aids sufferers to follow his courageous example.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr M L Mushwana): Order! Is there any objection to the motion? [Interjections.] Order! In the light of the objection, the motion may not be proceeded with. The motion without notice will therefore become notice of a motion.

          IMPLEMENTATION OF LANGUAGE CLAUSE IN CONSTITUTION

                         (Draft Resolution)

Mr A E VAN NIEKERK: Chairperson, I move without notice:

That the Council -

(1) commits itself to implement and promote the language clause as prescribed in section 6 of the Constitution of South Africa, with special reference to section 6(2) and (3), which -

   (a)  compels the state to take positive steps to increase the  status
       and use of indigenous languages;


   (b)  affords the national and provincial governments the  opportunity
       to use any of the official languages on condition that at  least
       two languages are used; and


   (c)  provides that regional conditions must be taken into account and
       that municipalities must take cognisance of the  language  usage
       and preference of their residents;

(2) instructs that at national and provincial levels legislation and other measures must be implemented to regulate and monitor the use of the official languages;

(3) requests a progress report from the aforementioned governments;

(4) supports PanSALB in all its functions, as set out in section 5, by -

   (a)  becoming acquainted with the activities of PanSALB and promoting
       it in the relevant provinces and constituencies;


   (b)   inviting  the  chairpersons  of  the  national  and  provincial
       language committees on PanSALB to  advise  the  Council  on  the
       activities and progress of these committees; and


   (c)  requesting the relevant bodies and  PanSALB  to  report  to  the
       Council  about  the  bodies  which   persistently   ignore   the
       recommendations  of  PanSALB  in  respect  of  language   rights
       violations;

(5) acknowledges the right of every South African to use any of the official languages, but also the responsibility to have respect for the languages of others; and

(6) urges all South Africans to learn as many languages as possible within the spirit of the Constitution.

Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.

        CONGRATULATIONS TO MINISTER OF FINANCE ON THE BUDGET

                         (Draft Resolution)

Mr M A SULLIMAN: Chairperson, I move without notice:

That the Council - (1) congratulates the Minister of Finance on the Budget which was delivered yesterday;

(2) further congratulates the Minister on making more funds available for provincial and local government; and

(3) welcomes the announcement of the increment in old-age pensions and child support grants.

Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.

   OPENING OF HI-TECH TELEMEDICINE TRAINING CENTRE IN BLOEMFONTEIN

                         (Draft Resolution)

Dr P J C NEL: Voorsitter, ek stel sonder kennisgewing voor:

Dat die Raad -

(1) kennis neem dat die Minister van Gesondheid op 18 Februarie 2002 ‘n nuwe hoë-tegnologie satellietopleidingsentrum in Bloemfontein geopen het, wat teen ‘n koste van R11 miljoen geïnstalleer is;

(2) verder kennis neem dat die nuwe bestuursentrum die eerste van sy soort in Suid-Afrika is en dus net die begin van telemedisyne in Suider-Afrika is wat in staat sal wees om verpleegstudente, algemene praktisyns en gemeenskapsdokters wat selfs in die mees afgeleë dele van die land woon en werk die kans te gee om opleiding te ontvang en met spesialiste te kommunikeer;

(3) verneem dat die stelsel oor die wêreld heen met groot sukses gebruik word;

(4) die Departement van Gesondheid in die Vrystaat gelukwens met hierdie tegnologiese ontwikkeling; en

(5) die Minister van Gesondheid versoek om die ander provinsies aan te moedig om spoedig in hul voetspore te volg - indien dit nie gebeur nie, sal die genoemde stelsel nie ten volle landwyd in werking gestel kan word nie. (Translation of motion without notice follows.)

[Dr P J C NEL: Mr Chairperson, I move without notice:

That the Council -

(1) notes that -

   (a)  on 18 February 2002 the Minister of Health opened a new  hi-tech
       satellite training centre in Bloemfontein which was erected at a
       cost of R11 million;


   (b)  the new management centre is the first of its kind  in  the  RSA
       and therefore only the beginning  of  telemedicine  in  Southern
       Africa,   which   will   provide   nursing   students,   general
       practitioners and community doctors who are living  and  working
       in even the remotest parts the opportunity to  receive  training
       and communicate with specialists; and


   (c)  this system is being used with great success all over the world;

(2) congratulates the Free State health department on this technological development; and

(3) requests the Minister of Health to encourage the other provinces soon to follow in their footsteps, because if this does not happen the system in question cannot become fully operative countrywide.]

Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.

                     ANIMAL IDENTIFICATION BILL

            (Consideration of Bill and of Report thereon) The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE  NCOP:  Order!  I  take  this  opportunity  to welcome the hon Deputy Minister and call upon him address the House.

The DEPUTY MINISTER FOR AGRICULTURE AND LAND AFFAIRS: Thank you, Chairperson, for the opportunity to meet this high body in this Other Place, the lower House. I hope this will only be of short duration until hon members move into their new place. [Interjections.] No, I mean it well.

With respect, I think this is a very important piece of legislation; it is not a long Bill. This Bill has very important implications for the cattle trade and other animals, especially in South Africa. It is the result of quite an extensive consultation process, which was conducted by the department by inviting comments from the public and by holding national workshop was also held.

The needs that were identified in this regard were, amongst other things, the following. Firstly, the feeling of the sector involved was that one needs a countrywide compulsory marking system. That is the only way that one can really have this in operation. As recently as 10 years ago, it was only in the Pietersburg district where marking was compulsory, although it has always been a widespread practice.

The second need that was expressed was that one needed some country identification mark for the purposes of export and of controlling border situations. Another need that came out of these consultations was that one had to make some provision for people to make a living out of branding and the registration process, and that must be regulated somehow.

Another request, which had to be heeded, was the need for a tattooing acknowledgement of calves, lambs and goat kids before they reached the weaning age, especially for skin trade purposes and that the same consideration be given to the expressed need for tattooing feedlot cattle or cattle under the age of 18 months, in the sense that one does not damage the skin if it is going to be used for leather purposes. Another need that was expressed was to have the legislation in a user- friendly, farmer-friendly and cattle farmer-friendly way and that it reads easily, which was not the case with the old Act, and that it makes provision for all alternate marketing methods.

Regarding all the needs that I have mentioned, we get results in this new Bill which really satisfy these needs in a substantive way. This led to the result that a number of changes were needed in the legislation. It was therefore easier to draft an entirely new Bill.

Hon members can compare this Bill before them today, from the point of view of legislative drafting, to a Bill we will deal with a little while later, the veterinary professions Bill, in which there are extensive amendments. If one looks at this Bill one will see what a mess it becomes if one starts making amendments extensively.

Here one has an elegant Bill, if I may say so, which I hope will streamline the legislation and which will be put into operation very easily, although it will still remain quite an extensive process. However, we now have a Bill which will result in a more specific Act, and the technique is very easy. It is a classic technique which always works well: One gives the main principles in the Bill, or in the Act, and eventually, and in the regulations, one makes provision for the things that change from time to time.

For example, when this Bill came before me for the first time, my request was that it must make it possible, without coming to Parliament again, for a complete tracing system to be put in place. It is now like that, although, for other practical reasons, it would not be possible to have, a tracing system in operation in South Africa within a few months. However, by amending the regulations, we can do the administrative work far more efficiently.

The extensive consultation process, I think, has led to a situation in which the only people who will object to this Bill are stock thieves. I hope no one here will object to it today, because then we will know why he or she objects. [Laughter.] I hope hon members get the message that we want this Bill adopted in their honourable House. [Interjections.] I am not making any reference to anyone specific, Chairperson.

We will have a visible deterrent when this branding system is in place that is applicable to all cattle in the country. This will have a big effect on stock theft in this country. We will have positive identification and positive proof of ownership; policing of stock theft will be far easier, the recovery rate of cattle will be more effective, and we will have an easier system of recording for purposes of identification. This will enable a tracing system eventually as soon as we have that capacity in place.

The key components of the Animal Identification Bill include, of course, the name change. From branding'' we move to identification’’. We have better definitions. In fact, hon members in the select committee did excellent work. I went through their minutes. They made a very important amendment, which, I believe, is also before the House today in the sense that -wat noem jy die knip van ore?'' - marking or oorknip” is also excluded as a legal identification mark. This amendment does not exclude the use of that method for traditional purposes.

I want to say something about the situation in traditional areas as well. There are options for the tattooing of cattle in the legislation now, and it is possible to put down minimum ages for hot-iron marking, which is a welfare consideration. A hot iron marks small, young cattle.

There is a 14-day period of grace, which was not provided for in the previous Act, for buying and selling of cattle and other animals. This makes it possible for people who keep animals they have bought for a short period to sell them again.

There is also provision for other identification methods for specific groups. Perhaps the most important provision, in the SADC context, is that the Bill provides for the use of national marks. In that way one identifies the country of origin. Especially border farmers would be glad to make use of this. All exports should have these marks. I could just say that Namibia is already marking exports to South Africa with an ``N’’ as their country’s identification.

I think the system is going to work well. A lot of work still needs to be done to implement the system, but the beauty of the Bill is that the existing national department’s animal identification system can then be used effectively as a tracing tool. The new legislation will enhance this further. Traceability is where the meat trade is heading. People who buy a piece of meat in a shop, a supermarket or a butchery want to know where the meat comes from, from which farm and sometimes they want to know what type of animal the meat is from. The legislation will enhance this and will be supported by the work being done by SA Studbook activities under the Intergis system, and can be used by producers.

I just want to mention one thing which I think is a very positive development. The portfolio committee of this House received comments from the national House of Traditional Leaders, in which they expressed appreciation for the legislation and also made some suggestions which were responded to. I think it is a very positive development that that interaction has taken place. I will tell hon members why I say this. Thirty- five percent of the cattle stock in this country is to be found in the areas under traditional leadership. This represents a huge number of cattle. Secondly, there is a tradition about cattle, goat and sheep farming in those areas that is a national asset and should be developed further. That is the point I wish to make.

The national House of Traditional Leaders was actually worried about one thing. They argued that in the communal area some people have only two heads of cattle, and only a few people have 100 or 200 head of cattle. They therefore wanted a communal mark. They were worried that there was no provision for this in the Bill. Now they have been shown that there is ample provision for that, and this will be developed further in the system. I want to appeal to the department that this must be developed in close co- operation with the traditional leaders.

There is another thing which I could perhaps mention here, by the way, and that is animal welfare. We are very worried about good husbandry in this country. There is traditional knowledge available in the traditional areas, of how one works with cattle, and with animals generally. That knowledge is being lost with the extensive urbanisation that is taking place in this country. Somehow we must get some of that back. We can only do this through the traditional leaders, who have influence in those areas, and who are the guardians of these traditions, of how one works with cattle, and of the love for the animals that one works with. Perhaps we must send people from the urban areas and the townships to do service in the traditional areas, so that they can herd cattle or do something like that, to keep and develop this culture. I do not know whether this is practical at all, but it would be a wonderful thing. [Interjections.] A kind of school, yes. Perhaps people who know more about this can talk about it.

Agriculture is culture. I have brought something with me. I actually obtained the permission of the Chairperson to show this. Here I have two branding irons. [Interjections.] This was my grandfather’s and this was my father’s, although I grew up in a small town in the Free State. Because I am a pen pusher, I am using my grandfather’s branding iron to hold down papers on my desk. But it means something to me. It means that although I do not have cattle, somewhere in the past my forebears were cattle owners, although not big cattle owners.

In fact, my grandfather fought with De La Rey in the Western Transvaal during the Anglo-Boer War. He told me that for the last six months of the war he had no clothes left, and was fighting naked on his horse. After the war, when he got back to the farm, he had no cattle. There was nothing left. The house was burnt and there were no cattle left. He had this branding iron made to reassure him that one day he would have cattle again. And he did have cattle again.

I was present when this branding iron of my father’s was made, by one of the last blacksmiths in the Free State in the early 50s. I was still a little boy then. I went with my father to the blacksmith so that he could make my father’s own branding iron, or ``brandyster’’. I was present when this was made, with hammer and fire, by that blacksmith, who was quite old by that time. I think he must have been one of the last ones. It is my culture, it is associated with cattle and we must preserve this.

We must have respect for the cattle culture and animal culture in the traditional areas. Otherwise we will not be able to build the economy in the traditional areas. It must rest on the basis of animal husbandry and cattle. That is the only way that we are going to build those economies. We must realise that that is an asset we have here. We must work in close association with the traditional leaders. That is why I am so glad that this Council has made contact with the traditional leaders in this regard. We will not be able to make any progress if we do not get that co- operation.

I want to close with the observation that, although we lived in a town, I had to milk the cows. And one of the biggest fights between my father and mother was on a Saturday - I was then in Std 9 - when I had to play my final piano examination, and still had to milk the cows in the morning. My father told me to milk the cows and my mother said that it might hurt the little boy’s hands. He could milk the cows if he was going to play the piano at 11 o’clock. But my father stood firm and said that I should milk the cows and that it was very good for developing one’s hands. [Applause.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Order! I noticed that hon Kgoshi Mokoena enjoyed your speech, Deputy Minister.

Rev P MOATSHE: Chairperson, hon Deputy Minister for Agriculture and Land Affairs, hon members, as far as the Animal Identification Bill is concerned, I think the hon the Deputy Minister has said it all.

I would like to tell hon members that this Bill before us contains proposals with a view to introducing a more effective method of control over people marking animals, so as to prove ownership of livestock and to facilitate the permanent and visible marking of animals as a deterrent to stock thieves, as the hon the Deputy Minister has already said.

The reasoning behind these proposals is to enable the SA Police Service and Stock Theft Unit to render an effective service to all stock owners in South Africa. The Livestock Brands Act, Act No 87 of 1962, provides for a legal and uniform identification system for most farm animals. This Act was reviewed on a regular basis in order to ensure its efficiency as an identification system.

One of the first proposals was to amend the name of the Livestock Brands Act. This amendment stems from the fact that brand'' refers to both tattooing and branding. It was agreed that the general perception is that brand only refers to hot-iron and freeze-branding. The conclusion was that the termidentification’’ is a more suitable one.

This Bill serves to deal with practical problems experienced with the current Act. It emphasises the importance of identifying animals which have permanent and visible marks on animals as these act as a deterrent, as stock thieves are more inclined to steal unmarked animals. A uniform identification system makes positive identification of stolen or strayed animals possible. It also makes proof of ownership possible. The identification of animals significantly contributes to more effective policing, which results in an improved recovery rate of lost and stolen animals and an increase in the number of stock thieves apprehended and convicted.

There is an old expression that one person’s freedom ends where another person’s begins. This Bill brings the freedom to the communities who are victims of theft, and on the other hand limits the long fingers of thieves.

This Bill also addresses the most critical problems in identification so as to be in line with international standards. It does this by providing for the coming-of-age movement, that is tattooing cattle under the age that they have two teeth, and feedlots have a problem with the current legislation since branding of weaners reduces the value of the hides. Therefore, this Bill provides for alternative forms of identification for different types of animals.

The Bill also provides for a register of people marking animals and determines that these people should be trained so as to introduce a more effective method of control over them. There is an indigenous method of marking animals. I want to relate an instance that happened in my constituency, which is between Brits and Rustenburg, where stock thieves managed to get into the bush and steal a good number of cattle and it seems as if these thieves managed to transport these cattle by rail from Rustenburg station to the Transkei.

I felt pity for the people who were after these cattle but they managed to trace the cattle to the Transkei. And because these cattle were marked the indigenous way, probably those people who were moving those cattle from Rustenburg probably did not look for those marks. As a result of these indigenous marks, they managed to get some of these cattle back from the Transkei.

Therefore this Bill is imperative. It is extremely important, but I am happy that it does not eliminate the indigenous marking of cattle. We support this Bill. This Bill is long overdue and this Council should accept this Bill. [Applause.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr L Mushwana): Order! I hope you are not implying that people in the Transkei steal cattle. [Laughter.]

Dr E A CONROY: Agb Voorsitter, Adjunkminister Du Toit en kollegas, veediefstal is so oud soos die berge en sal altyd met ons wees. In die eerste vyf maande van 1999 is daar, in afgeronde syfers, 27 000 beeste en 50 000 skape as gesteel aangemeld, waarvan onderskeidelik 13 000 beeste en 14 000 skape teruggevind is. Die sukseskoers van inhegtenisnemings en skuldigbevindings van veediewe sou in alle waarskynlikheid veel hoër gewees het, as daar nie soveel diere sonder een of ander vorm van permanente identifikasie rondgeloop het nie.

Die permanente en sigbare merk van vee het verskeie ooglopende voordele, naamlik die makliker identifisering vir aantekeningsdoeleindes op die gebied van stoetboerdery en die suiwelbedryf; positiewe identifikasie van gesteelde en wegloopvee, en dus positiewe bewys van eienaarskap, word verskaf en meer doeltreffende polisiëring word bevorder, wat as afskrikmiddel vir veediewe moet dien. Dit is dus binne die vermoë van vee- eienaars om die lewe van veediewe al hoe moeiliker te maak deur hul diere duidelik te merk.

Die Wet op Veebrandmerke, Wet 87 van 1962, maak voorsiening vir ‘n wettige en eenvormige stelsel vir die identifisering van meeste plaasdiere en is die enigste wettige wyse waarop vee-eienaars hul eienaarskap kan bewys. Die wetsontwerp wat egter vandag ter tafel is, het ten doel om die bestaande wet te herroep en in sy plek nuwe veeboervriendelike wetgewing daar te stel. Hoewel die term brandmerk'' na beide tatoeëermerking en aanbring van 'n brandmerk verwys, is die algemene persepsie dat brandmerk’’ slegs na die merk van diere met ‘n warm brandyster en sogenaamde vriesbrandmerking verwys. Dit word algemeen aanvaar dat die term ``identifiseringsmerk’’ meer aanvaarbaar en duideliker omskrywend is en sodoende verwarring sal uitskakel.

Die wetsontwerp maak onder andere verder voorsiening vir die verpligte merk van alle diere en groepe diere wat deur die Minister van Landbou verklaar word vir aansoeke om registrasie van identifiseringsmerke of die uitreiking van registrasiesertifikate en die oordrag en kansellering van identifiseringsmerke. Dit maak verder voorsiening vir die groter konfigurasie en spasiëring van drie merke wat verskil van grootvee tot kleinvee en varke tot volstruise. In die geval van grootvee kan die identifikasie ‘n brandmerk op enige duidelik sigbare area, met die uitsondering van die nek, of ‘n merk binne een van die twee ore wees, terwyl in die geval van kleinvee en varke ‘n tatoeëermerk slegs binne die ore mag wees. Volstruise daarenteen se merke mag, in die geval van voëls jonger as ses maande, slegs tatoeëermerke wees onder een van die vlerke, en vir ouer voëls, brandmerke op een van die dye wees. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)

[Dr E A CONROY: Chairperson, Deputy Minister Du Toit and colleagues, stock theft is as old as the mountains and will always be with us. During the first five months of 1999, in round numbers, 27 000 head of cattle and 50 000 sheep were reported as stolen, of which 13 000 cattle and 14 000 sheep were recovered respectively. The success rate of arrests and convictions of stock thieves would in all probability have been higher, if there were not so many animals roaming around without some or other form of permanent identification.

The permanent and visible mark of cattle has various apparent advantages, namely the easier identification for record purposes in the domain of state farming and the dairy industry, and the positive identification of stolen animals and animals who go astray, and therefore positive proof of ownership and more effective policing which should serve as a deterrent for stock thieves. It is therefore within the ability of cattle owners to make the lives of stock thieves more difficult by clearly marking their animals.

The Livestock Brands Act, Act No 87 of 1962, makes provision for a legal and uniform system for the identification of most farm animals and is the only legal manner in which cattle owners can prove their ownership. However, the Bill tabled today aims to repeal the existing Act and to put in place new, cattle-farmer friendly legislation. Although the term brand'' refers both to tattoo marks and branding, the general perception is thatbrand’’ only refers to the mark of animals who have been branded with a hot branding iron and so-called freeze-branding. It is generally accepted that the term identification mark is more acceptable and more clearly defined and therefore eliminate confusion.

The Bill, inter alia, makes further provision for the compulsory marking of all animals and groups of animals which have been declared, by the Minister of Agriculture, for applications for registration of identification marks or the distribution of registration certificates and the transfer and cancellation of identification marks. It makes further provision for the greater configuration and spacing of three marks which differ from cattle to sheep and pigs to ostriches. In the case of cattle the identification mark can be a brand on any clearly visible area, with the exception of the neck or a mark inside one of the two ears, while in the case of sheep and pigs only a tattoo inside the ears are acceptable. On the other hand, in the case of ostriches, where the birds are younger than six months, the tattoo should only be under one of the wings and older birds can only be branded on one of their thighs.]

This Bill also makes possible the development of a new central, computerised system, which will not only accommodate historical brands as far as possible, but also make it possible for space-age technology to be applied. Imagine, a stock farmer will now be able to use a laptop or notebook computer out in the grazing pastures to identify and classify his or her animals. Once the use of microchips under the skins of animals, which will also be allowed in terms of this Bill, becomes cost-effective, stock farmers will be able to track their stolen or strayed animal by satellite.

I just sincerely hope that this Bill will not enable the tracing or tracking of MPs in the parliamentary complex!

The following question will naturally be asked: But what about traditional marks? Both the Bill and regulations make provision for stockowners in the traditional communal and other areas to continue using traditional marks, like marks on horns and hooves, paint marks on the body as well as clips, clasps, tags or rivets in the ears to identify their cattle. These marks can be retained, provided the animals also have the legal identification marks as prescribed in the Bill and the regulations.

The New NP supports this Bill. [Applause.]

Mrs A M VERSFELD: Voorsitter, ek wil net graag aan die Adjunkminister sê dat die DP hierdie wetgewing al in die komiteestadium gesteun het en dat ons dit nie vandag steun omdat hy verwys het na only stock thieves will not support this Bill'' nie. [Chairperson, I would just like to tell the Deputy Minister that the DP already supported this legislation at the committee stage and that we are not supporting it today because he said to only stock thieves will not support this Bill’’.]

The following two issues of concern, although they were reasonably well addressed and answered, were raised by the DP. Firstly, there is the issue of cross-border and cross-provincial movement, and the liaison with law enforcement authorities and their counterparts. This Bill would be very difficult to manage if the relationship between law enforcement agencies and their counterparts is not strengthened. The other issue - and the Minister referred to it himself - is about whether the department has the capacity to maintain and update the register.

Dit is geweldig belangrik, al is daar die twee weke speling voordat hierdie merk verander word, dat ons kapasiteit reg is alvorens ons regtigwaar tot aksie oorgaan. Ook voel ek dat die provinsies en die SADC-lande ‘n baie belangrike rol het om hier te speel. [Although there is the grace period of two weeks before this mark must be changed, it is extremely important that our capacity is correct before we really proceed to action. I also feel that the provinces and the SADC countries have a very important role to play here.]

There should also be access by the provinces as well as the law enforcement officers to this register and it should be updated and maintained daily.

In ons komitee het ons ook die kwellinge van die tradisionele leiers bespreek en, soos die Minister gesê het, ‘n groot gedeelte van die kuddes wat vandag in ons land is, behoort aan hierdie mense. Ek dink egter nie daar is rede vir hulle om bekommerd te wees dat dit te duur of onprakties gaan wees om hul diere te merk nie. Ek glo dat hulle bekommernis goed aangespreek is.

Ek is ook bly dat die Minister bekommerd is oor die welstand van diere, en ek hoop dit sluit ook troeteldiere in. Dit val sekerlik ook onder die Minister se departement. Ek hoop dat ons eersdaags wetgewing gaan hê wat die eienaars van troeteldiere ook sal verplig om hul diere deur middel van ‘n sogenaamde ``chip’’ te merk. Sodoende sal ons dan ook die mense wat hulle troeteldiere verwaarloos, veral oor vakansietye, aan die pen kan laat ry en daardeur ons dierebeskermingsverenigings baie onkoste en werk bespaar. Hierdie verenigings val ook onder die Minister se departement en ek hoop ons kan vanjaar ‘n verandering sien in die begroting en dat daar geld beskikbaar sal wees vir hierdie verenigings. [Applous.] (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)

[In our committee we also discussed the concerns of the traditional leaders and, as the Minister said, a large proportion of the cattle in our country today belongs to these people. However, I do not think there is reason for them to be concerned that it is going to be too expensive or impractical to mark their animals. I believe that their concerns have been well addressed.

I am also glad that the Minister is concerned about the welfare of animals, and I hope that this includes pets as well. This certainly also falls under the Minister’s department. I hope that we will soon have legislation which will also compel the owners of pets to mark their animals by way of a so- called chip. In this way we will then also be able to catch people who neglect their pets, particularly during holiday periods and in so doing save our societies for the protection of animals a lot of money and work. These societies also fall under the Minister’s department and I hope that this year we can see a change in the budget and that money will be made available to these societies. [Applause.]]

Mr K D S DURR: Chairperson, there is not a lot left that one can say. We in the ACDP support this Bill. It will contribute to better stock control and will assist in determining ownership. It will help the police authorities in dealing with stock theft. I would say, however, that what is proposed is somewhat old-fashioned, because the technology already exists and we should rapidly be moving in that direction.

When walking with one’s cattle and one impregnates a microchip in the ear or somewhere else, one just hooks up one’s computer, presses a button and one knows the birth date, weight, parents and everything else. It is so simple. It is not difficult to do, and the state veterinarian already called on all farmers in South Africa to do this.

I do not know when last the Minister went around with the state veterinarian, because if he does, he will see in their vehicles that they can press a button that gives one the exact latitude and longitude of one’s farm. They already carry quite sophisticated apparatus. They already visit every herd every year for brucellosis and TB. It would not be a difficult thing for them either to impregnate on a free basis or to check. That is something that we should look at.

My colleague hon Moatshe raised the matter of the difficulty that if one delivers heavily branded cattle to the market, then the price one gets for the skins is much less. The Minister will know that our skins are used by Mercedes Benz and BMW at the moment, and massive value is added, as those skins are worked and then used for motor car seats. That is a very good beneficiation process, which starts with the cattle and in particular with the branding. If one brands the skins badly, too high or too deep, then they do not want the skins. That is a problem and many farmers just brand lightly before cattle go to market.

However, that does not answer the Minister’s problems, which are addressed in this Bill. If one brands a skin, the hair grows over it and two, three months later one can no longer see the branding. A microchip would address all of that.

But this is a very good Bill. It does constitute progress. There is just one point that I would like to make to the Minister and that concerns game. I do not know if he is going to extend this registration process to game. If one buys a pair of roan antelope, it will cost one a couple of hundred thousand rand. Suppose they jump across the fence, do they now belong to one’s neighbour because they are wild animals? The identification of wild animals, as game farming becomes a much more sophisticated industry in our country, becomes important. Many parts of our country can be integrated into conservation for better utilisation of our resources, and it might well be that the Minister might consider looking at how this animal identification can also help the game farmer at some time in the future.

We support the Bill. It is a good measure.

Mr R M NYAKANE: Chairperson, the introduction of this Bill aims at ensuring that the constitutional obligation entrusted to the police is observed. In terms of section 205(3) of the Constitution, Act 108 of 1996, the objectives of the Police Service are, among other things, to prevent, combat and investigate crime, and to protect the inhabitants of the Republic and their property. The passage of this Bill will therefore facilitate the realisation of these objectives. There is no doubt that a piece of legislation such as the Animal Identification Bill is crucial, taking into account the scourge of the high crime rate in our country.

The uniform identification system of control over people marking animals underpins the basis of the intention of this legislation. The process will ultimately realise data centralisation, which will in turn facilitate planning in the event of the outbreak of livestock diseases, such as foot- and-mouth, brucellosis and redwater.

The Livestock Brands Act, Act 87 of 1962, did not provide a centrally controlled register system. In terms of the provision of the current Act, the Minister for Agriculture and Land Affairs can readily access information with regard to the livestock population throughout the entire country.

The implementation of this Bill cannot be without constraints. Affordability of the prescribed fee for the registration of identification marks therefore becomes a crucial matter. Rural livestock owners cannot even afford one litre of dipping stuff for their cattle, let alone subject their cattle to the annual innoculation programme. Prescribed application forms must be simplified, and, if possible, the local African language should be used.

The viewpoints of the national House of Traditional Leaders, with due respect to the hon chief sitting next to me here, have been noted. Their proposals advocate the decentralisation of the registration of identification marks, which might culminate in an uneven identification system, and thus render the process unable to achieve the intentions of this legislation. The possibility of making room for the abuse of the system cannot be ruled out.

In terms of section 3 of this Bill - I think the Minister has already touched on this portion - the registrar may in writing, with the approval of the Minister, authorise any person who is not an officer to carry out the function entrusted to them. Therefore, the contents of this clause leave room for taking on board the interest or plight of traditional leaders.

In conclusion, I just want to draw the attention of this Council to the fact that it seems as if there are two areas of thought here, in terms of cattle rearing. We have the approach that attaches Western values and that which attaches African values. Briefly, what I mean by this is that when we rear cattle, in terms of the Western values, we think of economic activity, of selling. But, if we think in terms of the African values, I think that the economic aspect is secondary, if not last. What is more important in our African culture is that we rear cattle for the sake of ritual ceremonial activities - for use during functions, marriages, etc. So, this is one issue to bear in mind when we talk of cattle rearing, because I heard some of my colleagues, especially white colleagues, emphasising and inclining more to the Western or economic approach to the whole phenomenon.

With these few words, I would like to thank the Chairperson and the Minister.

Rev M CHABAKU: Chairperson, Deputy Minister and colleagues, it is really pleasing to hear similar points from other political parties and provinces. This emphasises similarity of thought, vision and actions, and that is consensus. So, let us be thankful that there is no polarity about it.

South Africa has hundreds of thousands of livestock. With such a large amount of livestock, we need to be able to identify the animals for effective management, food safety, disease control and prevention of fraud and stock theft. The problem is that, until now, animal identification practices in South Africa have not been very effective.

This is because the Livestock Brands Act, in terms of which animals had to be identified, contained some critical shortcomings such as confusion as to the meaning of brand, the marking of pre-weaners, lack of control over the registration of marking operators and the difficulty of identifying the country of origin in cases of cross-border animals.

In terms of the markings of pre-weaners, the current Act only provides for the branding of cattle, which causes a major problem for feedlots because the branding of weaners reduces the value of the animal hides.

Another shortcoming of the current Act is its inability to assist in the prevention of cross-border stock theft. The new Animal Identification Bill seeks to address these critical shortcomings by providing for a legal and uniform identification system for most farm animals.

A number of advantages will be derived from an improved uniform system of animal identification. Among others, it will make positive identification of stolen or stray animals possible; make proof of ownership much easier; contribute to more effective policing, which results in an improved rate of recovery of lost or stolen animals; and it will also lead to an increase in the number of stock thieves being apprehended and convicted.

Another significant improvement which is brought about by this new Bill is the possibility of using alternative identification marks such as microchips, transponders and DNA testing. These new techniques of animal identification are already used worldwide, and by allowing its use in South Africa, we are beginning to conform with standards which are recognised worldwide.

The Bill also seeks to regulate the activities of people who mark animals other than their own for financial gain, the so-called ``marking operators’’. Marking operators will have to comply with certain prescribed requirements and will have to be registered by the Registrar of Animal Identification before they will be issued with a licence to operate as animal markers.

It will be of great help even to the Ministry dealing with road safety because of the carnage caused in cases where stray animals have been killed on the roads and disowned because their owners fear persecution and having to pay for damages for vehicles involved. However, this does not exclude family tags, nipples, punctures and clippings. Much publicity and education needs to be executed for the Bill to be understood and supported.

This new Bill is a significant improvement on the existing legislation. It will bring our animal identification system in line with international best practice. The ANC, therefore, supports this Bill in toto. [Applause.]

The DEPUTY MINISTER FOR AGRICULTURE AND LAND AFFAIRS: Chairperson, some very interesting comments were made. I do thank the members for their contributions.

There seems to be some misunderstanding, looking at comments made by the DP, about administrative capacity. We have sufficient capacity to administer the Bill as it stands at the moment. But the nature of this Bill is such that it can be used elastically in the way that the regulations are going to be enforced. As the ACDP has said, if we are talking about getting a microchip complete traceability system, as is the case in Britain at the moment, that means every cattle owner must be able to have and operate a computer. In Britain, every cattle farmer, normally the woman, because they are far more intelligent than the men, sits in front of a computer and runs the passport system the whole day, for traceability. That is a problem. Of course, it is a bit old-fashioned, if we regard that as old-fashioned. We do not have a fully computerised system of traceability up to the deepest areas in the traditional areas. It is just not practical at this moment.

But we do have the administrative capacity. As this system of traceability is built up, and it can be done in certain areas and for certain animals - because there is provision for that in the Bill, the scope for elasticity - we will need more capacity to run a more sophisticated system. This is a Bill that can grow when it eventually is implemented. The regulations provide the elasticity. We must be able to do what is needed at a certain time in history, and what we need now is what we have got. Hon members should just remember that a register does exist and we are improving the current system dynamically with what is being done here at the moment.

Regarding pets and bringing them into this system, it can be done. If we look at clause 2 of the Bill, the Minister can declare that all cats must be tattooed, etc. But this has a lot of implications if we have to inspect all the cats in this country. For that we will need capacity, because inspectors must be able to go out.

Regarding the point Mr Durr made about game farming, provision can also be made for that. Game farming is growing exponentially in South Africa at the moment, and we do have disease problems. That is the main worry at the moment. For example, there are problems with wildebeest being moved into areas where cattle are normally farmed. I have forgotten the English name of these disease ``snotsiekte’’ [bovine malignant catarrhal fever] which poses a very big problem, because at the moment there is really nothing one can do about it from a pharmaceutical point of view. It is all a question of control and seeing where one has to control. Sometimes one should not control things because the expenses are not worth it. It is a question of economics.

I think this is a thing which the department can now work out. They have a framework in terms of which they can now introduce a good administrative system. I am sorry that it is a bit old-fashioned and that we cannot introduce microchips and computers for the whole South Africa, but it is simply not practical at this stage. However, it can be developed. We have a plan available.

The point about the skins is, valid of course. I have already commented on that. In some areas skins are problematic at the moment. The problem with the ostrich industry, for example, is that they cannot sell all the skins, which constitute an integral part of the ostrich industry. The demand for ostrich meat has grown far quicker than the demand for the skins. This is an economic problem, but this system provides for answers in this regard.

On the issue of welfare, I think there is work going on. It is actually not relevant at the moment, but the question has been asked. The department is currently working on amalgamating the Acts which deal with welfare issues. This is a very complicated process, because it must provide for different cultural practices, for example, for kosher or halala slaughtering practices, which must be provided for in the cultural set up of South Africa, and regarding which people have fundamental rights. I thank members for the debate. It has been extremely interesting. Let me just see if there is anything else. About the question of affordability asked by a member of the UDM, the department has given an opportunity for an identification system which is user-friendly. That is agreed by everyone. We also believe that it is affordable.

I think what must be developed - and we must also ask the department to do this properly - are the marking operators for which the Bill provides. This is a new thing. We need to get honesty into the system. There are a lot of opportunities now for new operators to register with the department. I really hope that this will be an empowering exercise, and I will request the department to provide for this.

A person, or two or three, can get a bakkie and go round to all the areas and, for a reasonable fee, mark animals in the proper manner. They will know how the system works, get some training - the department has assured me they will give training in this regard - and we can get some small businesses going. These marking operators will give a quick and efficient service at a reasonable price.

But the system is elastic. We can use microchips. That is possible under the present system. The system will range from cheap processes, such as tattooing, to expensive systems such as microchips. It is possible to do that. The department’s role is to inform the public and to help them establish the most reliable methods of identification applicable to a specific area. That is why we even make provision for poor areas, where farmers’ associations can keep one registration mark for a lot of people who only have a few cattle. Not everyone has to get his own identity mark. A traditional authority can have one mark for the whole community, with differentiation among them.

I think this is a wise Bill. We must just administer it in the best way we can, with our available capacity. [Applause.]

Debate concluded. Bill, subject to proposed amendments, agreed to in accordance with section 75 of the Constitution.

      VETERINARY AND PARA-VETERINARY PROFESSIONS AMENDMENT BILL

            (Consideration of Bill and of Report thereon)

The DEPUTY MINISTER FOR AGRICULTURE AND LAND AFFAIRS: Chairperson, the Veterinary and Para-Veterinary Professions Amendment Bill, as I said earlier this afternoon, is a typical amending Bill, which is perhaps not as elegant as the one we have just debated. It makes provision for what one could call the transformation of the SA Veterinary Council. The objectives of the Bill, and the Act as a whole, are to regulate the practising of the veterinary and para-veterinary professions, and the council also has the function of advising the Minister on matters affecting these professions.

What the Bill does, is to propose amendments to the present internal constitutional structure of the SA Veterinary Council. I think the most important purpose here is to make this important council representative of the demographics of South Africa.

I must say, in the portfolio committee of the National Assembly extensive amendments were made to the Bill that was introduced in Parliament. One of the interesting things which they included is that the Minister must inform the parliamentary committees, including the select committee of the NCOP, in writing about the appointment, election or resignation of members of the council. This will ensure that the information is passed on so that both committees of Parliament can exercise their duties in keeping the Ministry and the executive accountable. That opportunity is created by this Bill.

The Bill also provides that veterinary surgeons who want to practise in private companies, and not only in close corporations or in their own names, will be able to do so, as is the case with some other professions. The reason we had to take another look at this Act was that the composition of the council was no longer in comformity with present-day realities, requirements and provisions. This was also a constitutional problem, because the Act was not in line with the principles which we find in the new Constitution, and also, actually, which we already had in the interim constitution.

What happened was that a working group was established, already under the previous Ministry, and a very long process followed. Workshops were conducted, stakeholders were consulted and written submissions were received. This Bill - I must say this here today - took too long to come to Parliament. As long ago as June 1995, a workshop on the restructuring of the council was held. Concerns were raised and the restructuring of the present council was started. There was a request that the Act should be amended. Here, at last, we have the result of that process, as Cicero said: ``tandem aliquando’’. At last we have the result here.

I must say that I fully support the work that was done in the portfolio committee of the National Assembly. A lot of amendments were made. The Bill was really not elegantly formulated. The description of the composition of the council had to be redone by the portfolio committee in Parliament. The original drafter of this Bill cannot be traced. We do not know where it was done and by whom, but it was definitely not drafted by the persons who are now trying to administer this Bill. It was a very complicated process. It was almost like the Codesa and Kempton Park negotiations to get this Bill here.

Count Bismarck was not much of a democrat, but he once said that there were two things of which the public should never know the way they were made. He was a German, therefore one was sausages. The public should not know how sausages are made. The other thing was Acts of parliament. [Laughter.] I am not saying anything, but sometimes it is almost like making sausages to get the Bills here in Parliament.

Well, we have this Bill now, and I think it is good as it is at the moment. The NCOP’s select committee had an impact on it and found new faults, quite rightly so. It is this type of thing, ``section 5(2)(f) or (g) must be substituted by section 5(2)(a), (d), (e), (f) or (g)’’, those types of details.

In actual fact, we have good legal advisers in Parliament, but I would be happy if we had more of them, people who could look at these Acts and assist the committees with every Bill, especially ones such as this one, which has all these amendments, with delete this'' and amend that’’, just to be sure that everything has been done.

In clause 3 some things have been inserted which I do believe are necessary. For example, clause 3 states that one of the requirements of the council is that a person must be a veterinarian or a veterinary specialist. They forgot that now, in terms of the Act, para-veterinaries are also included on the council. If one did not check that and someone found this out, it would have been wrong. The words where it is required'' have now been added. I think I must compliment the select committee, as well as the portfolio committee, on the good work they have done. They have actually looked at this Bill twice and still found mistakes. I hope all the mistakes have now been removed from this Bill. In one place it referred to standing committee’’ when it should have referred to ``council’’. This makes a huge difference. I simply do not know why the Bill came to Parliament in such an ill-prepared state. We have to take responsibility for this, and we have already been taken to task in the National Assembly. We can only promise that next time Bills will be better and look like the Animal Identification Bill that members have before them.

This Bill will do the work that is required of it. I am sure that this council will now be transformed. There is a problem in South Africa with the transformation of the veterinary profession. We simply do not have enough black veterinarians in this country. I believe that the number is something like 200 at the moment. That is my information. That is a very small percentage.

I, together with the chief director responsible, who is present and listening to us today, have started working with Onderstepoort faculty to make bursaries available, because it is very expensive to study veterinary science. I am informed that it costs something like R30 000 a year, that is, if one stays in residence. I do not know whether it can be done any cheaper.

We are working on this matter and some good work has already been done. It will be developed further. The interesting thing is that if one goes to Onderstepoort, one notices that this profession is becoming a women’s profession. Seventy percent of students at Onderstepoort are women. That is a good thing, but we need men there as well. We hope that they are not all leaving this profession. What is drawing a lot of women is the pet industry, because one is going to have a nice practice in a nice city, looking after beautiful cats and dogs. This is good and must be done. We appreciate that work, but the commercial work must still be done.

Today one cannot be a good milk farmer without a veterinarian. Perhaps 15 years ago one could be, but today one must almost have the vet next to one if one wants to farm properly. We need the vets. This profession must be transformed, and we hope that this council will now lead and drive this process. I think that this profession should be popularised more and built up.

I will gladly listen to the debate. [Applause.]

Rev P MOATSHE: Mmusakgotla, motlotlegi Motlatsa-Tona wa tsa Temothuo le Merero ya Mafatshe, batlotlegi ba Ntlo eno ya ketsamelao ya bosetshaba, tshipo o rile ke lebelo, motlhaba wa re ke namile.

Motswana a re se sa feleng se a bo se tlhola. Mo metseletseleng ya letsholo la go fetola melao ya puso ya maloba ya Afrorika Borwa, go tsamaelana le tsamaiso e ntshwa ya temokerasi, Molaokakanywa o o fa pele ga rona, maikaelelo a ona ke go fetola tlhaolele le kgethololo gore re tsamaelane le moono wa poelano le tshwaragano ya merafe le baagi ba kgaolo eno ya Aforika. Ntumelele go garela matseno a puo ya me ka go nopola: ``Maswi a kgomo a tla a le phepa, selabe se tla le motshwarakgamelo’’. Maikaelelo a Molaokakanywa o, ke go ntsha dilabe tse di tlileng le motshwarakgamelo wa puso ya maloba. (Translation of Setswana paragraphs follows.)

[Rev P MOATSHE: Chairperson, hon Deputy Minister of Agriculture and Land Affairs and hon members of this House, pride goes before a fall.

Everything has an end. In a series of campaigns to change laws of the former South African government to be in line with democratic practices, the aim of this Bill is doing away with apartheid and discriminatory practices so that we can affirm the culture of reconciliation and unity of citizens of this region of Africa.

Allow me to conclude the introduction of my speech by saying: Normally, the milk from the cow is clean and pure, but the contamination is often brought about by the one who milks. The aim of this Bill is to glean the remnants of apartheid’s flotsam that was caused by the former government.]

It is self-evident that a restructuring of the South African Veterinary Council is essential for the rational delivery of veterinary services to all South Africans. The legislation providing for the establishment of the present council is a relic of our legacy, of the past, and many of its provisions are out of touch with the requirements of our new constitutional order. The original Act, for example, required proficiency in Afrikaans and English, which are no longer the only two official languages in the country.

The amendments to the original Act are important for a number of reasons. These include the need for the council to become more representative of our population; the need to stop the continuing exclusion of certain members of the South African population from the profession as a result of past policies and admission requirements; the need to address the concern that the majority of members of the present council are academics, causing a sector imbalance with regard to representation; the predominance of representation from a single province, eg Gauteng; and the importance of taking the needs of previously disadvantaged communities into account.

Enabling national legislation to redefine the composition and functions of this statutory body is even more important in terms of the globalisation of trade. The credibility of our veterinary health services is a prerequisite for market access. The future of our country’s meat export industry is fully dependent on the international acceptance and acknowledgement of the professional integrity and credibility of South Africa’s veterinary profession and its ability to comply with international standards in respect of veterinary hygiene, consumer health and animal welfare.

Looking at the above challenges, how do the new amendments fare in dealing with those challenges? Do the amendments address those challenges? First of all, if one looks at the need to make the council representative, it is clear that the amending Bill does indeed address the question of racial representivity. The amendment allows the Minister to appoint two persons to the new council. In addition to these two people, nonveterinarians who will be responsible for representing the interests of consumers of veterinary services must also be appointed to the council.

Secondly, in dealing with the problem of exclusion of the previously disadvantaged from the profession, the amending Bill succeeds in addressing this challenge. The Bill empowers the council to relax the admission requirement for the profession by allowing the council to accept a degree, diploma or certificate not prescribed under the original Act for the purpose of registration of the holder thereof to practice as a veterinary or para-veterinary professional.

This will open the door to many people who, in terms of the original admission requirements, would not have been able to practice as veterinarians or para-veterinarians. Therefore, the ANC supports this Bill. [Applause.] Mrs A M VERSFELD: Chairperson, a very wise man once said: ``If you have nothing to say, say it.’’ I do not have a lot to say this afternoon, because the main reason for this amending Bill is to change the composition of the council to that of a more representative one in terms of race, gender, region - as in province - and language.

The DP’s concerns about the composition of the council and the relationship of the council to the Medicines Control Council have been addressed in the amended version. The Bill is not controversial, and the DP is, contrary to popular propaganda, not against transformation. Therefore, the DP supports this Bill. [Applause.]

Mr K D S DURR: Chairperson, we support the provisions of this Bill, making the veterinary and para-veterinary professions more representative. As the Minister said in his introductory remarks, agriculture, with particular reference to stock raising, is a great national enterprise in which our whole country and all our people are engaged. It touches all our lives. It is therefore proper that our people should be represented in the proper way where these matters are decided and where things happen that affect the industry.

It is also true to say, however, that discrimination is always a bad thing. It was bad in the past, and it will be bad in the future. I have to tell the Minister that today’s positive discrimination becomes tomorrow’s unfair labour practice. Therefore, I believe that whenever we do this kind of thing, necessary though it may be, that it be part of transformation and temporary. We should maybe put a sunset clause on it, and review the matter again in 10 years’ time. So that then later we can return to a proper system which is not based on discrimination, positive or negative.

The Minister will know that it is essential to maintain the highest possible technical standards in this field. It is vital to the nation’s health, and it is vital that our institutions retain the confidence of consumers both in South Africa and abroad. The Minister will know, we talked about traceability. The EU veterinarians will tell one which egg every ostrich came from and which pen it came from. They will trace it right to one’s farm; they do it now - today. Whereas before the EU had fences of excise duties and tariffs, today they have fences of regulations and health standards. If one cannot jump through those hoops, one does not have any ability to trace at all, and, unless one has the highest possible standards, adhere to them and have confidence in them, one simply cannot be in the business.

For us agriculture is an important business, because we are only one of seven countries in the world that is a net food exporter, that is, we export more food on a net basis than what we import. For us it is also a major source of added value with processed and packaged food. So whilst we support this and say that it is vital to take whatever steps we can to be inclusive in all of our public affairs, this must not lead to a lessening of tariffs. The Minister has seen what happens if we just let go for one second, for instance what happened in KwaZulu-Natal with foot-and-mouth disease. One must look at what happened in the United Kingdom - they slaughtered 3,5 million cattle. It is unbelievable what happened there.

We take our standards for granted so easily. But I want to tell the Council that it is a thin line. It is a very thin line. Tomorrow one can find oneself in the most unbelievable situation which perhaps one cannot get out of. One only has to look at parts of some of our neighbouring countries to know that. We must never take for granted the hard-won standards of stock health that we have in South Africa. We have to jealously guard them, because if one lets go for a minute, they are gone and once they have gone one battles to get the markets and the stock back. And we know what a long cycle that is. As far as disease is concerned, we live in a hostile environment. When I was in Australia, visiting a friend of mine who is a big farmer there, we took an aeroplane to his farm. He visits his farm twice a year. [Time expired.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Order! This is international day of a range of languages and the presiding officers continue their efforts to encourage members to use all the languages of South Africa.

HON MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

Dr E A CONROY: Chairperson, hon Deputy Minister, hon members of the Council, the purpose of the Bill under consideration is the restructuring of the veterinary council which exists in terms of the Veterinary and Para- Veterinary Professions Act of 1982. The main reason for amending the existing Act is to transform the composition of the council, which became necessary owing to, firstly, the exclusion of certain members of the population as a result of past policies and the admission requirements of academic institutions; secondly, the need for representation in terms of race and gender; thirdly, the sector imbalance with regard to representation as the majority of the council members are academics and, fourthly, the necessity of taking the needs and requirements of previously disadvantaged communities into account.

It was also mentioned that the predominance of representation from Gauteng was a problem. Now, we thoroughbred Gautengese do not have a problem with our predominant presence on the council, because our professionals are simply the best. However, we realise and accept that we cannot allow the other provinces to suck on the hind teat - if I may express myself in strictly veterinary and anatomical terms.

Transformation is also served in another sphere, namely that a wider variety of persons and expertise will be drawn to the profession. This can only be to the advantage of a profession which is highly regarded and held in high esteem, not only in South Africa, but also far beyond the borders of our country, in Africa and on other continents.

The Bill also seeks to allow veterinarians to form private companies in addition to close corporations, and to protect the public against malpractice by ensuring that the directors of such companies are also shareholders in the relevant companies. These amendments will enable veterinarians with foreign qualifications to become specialists if they pass the applicable examinations.

The amendments are designed to serve the above-mentioned purposes and do not hold any financial implications for the state. The New NP supports the Bill. [Applause.]

Nkul R M NYAKANE: Mufambisi wa ntirho, ndzi yima laha ku yimela UDM ku komba ku seketela ka hina eka Nawumbisi lowu wa namuntlha, hi nga ri na xiphiqo xin’wana. Hi amukela nakambe huvo leyi nga ta va kona, huvo leyi nga ta angarhela vanhu hinkwavo, ku nga ri vanhu va rixaka ro karhi. Ha wu seketela Nawumbisi lowu, a wu yi emahlweni [Mavoko]. (Translation of Xitsonga paragraph follows.)

[Mr R M NYAKANE: Chairperson, I rise here to represent the UDM in supporting this Bill today, as there are no obstacles. Again, we welcome the council that is going to be established, which will embrace all people without discrimination by other nations. We support this Bill and want it to be implemented. [Applause.]]

Mr V V Z WINDVOëL: Mgcinisihlalo, ngitsandza kubonga kakhulu kutfola litfuba lekutsi ngibe yincenye yalenkhulumomphikiswano. [Chairperson, I am greatly honoured to be given an opportunity to participate in this debate.]

In the Janauary 8 statement of the ANC, Comrade President Thabo Mbeki said, and I quote as follows:

Nowhere else on our continent was there to be devised a system as inhuman as that experienced by the Africans of South Africa, of the attempt to imprison the indigenous majority in rural ghettos.

the statement went on to say that:

We have to wage an unrelenting struggle to ensure that all organs of state and public institutions represent and pursue the ethos of equality and respect for human rights. The Bill before us is monumental in the sense that it provides for the restructuring of the SA Veterinary Council, which was untouchable for decades. The composition of the SA Veterinary Council excludes the majority population of South Africa and is therefore not in line with the principles laid down in our Constitution.

The Veterinary and Para-Veterinary Professions Act of 19 of 1982 is a creation of the old order. One need just look at section 14 of the principal Act, which discriminated against professionals who were not proficient in both languages, namely English and Afrikaans. In this era, when we have 11 official languages, this is totally unconstitutional. We thus welcome the proposed amendment that requires that such persons should be proficient in at least two official languages, one of which shall be English. These will go a long way towards enabling these professionals to communicate with persons of other backgrounds. Such an amendment will also accommodate veterinarians and para-veterinarians who studied outside South Africa and are thus not proficient in Afrikaans. The principal Act, which we are amending today, made reference to the male gender only. There is a section which emphasises and refers only to he'', his’’ and ``himself’’, simply meaning that it was meant for Ben, Jim and Benjamin, who were the only ones to take part in this sector. The amendments ensure that our womenfolk have a role to play in this sector, paving the way for untapped potential. The hon Deputy Minister has already alluded to the fact that we are seeing women going into this sector en masse, thus eradicating the legacy of a repugnant contempt for, domination of discrimination against the majority of our people.

The Bill also regulates the admission requirements regarding academic qualifications, as the principal Act excluded certain members of the South African population. I can proudly say that this Bill provides for the weighing up of competing values and ultimately an assessment based on proportionality, which calls for the balancing of different interests. It does this by addressing the concern that the majority of the current members of the council are academics, which causes a sector imbalance with regard to representation, by providing previously excluded sectors the opportunity to take part in the council of such an important profession in the country of their birth. This should be commended.

This problem has been resolved by furnish the hon the Minister with the power to appoint members from other sections of the veterinary profession. In short, it provides for the examination of candidates with veterinary degrees that are not recognised by the existing council.

The provision for the registration of private companies to practise in terms of this Act is also welcomed. It not only gives the private sector an opportunity, but also enhances partnership in the struggle to overcome racial, gender and geographic disparities. We have to continue with our efforts to ensure that this empowerment, while basing itself on sound business practices, benefits as many people as possible.

As the ANC, we would like to pledge our unconditional support to the Ministry on the passage of this Bill, as we feel that it is both constitutional and desirable. [Applause.]

Die ADJUNK-MINISTER VIR LANDBOU EN GRONDSAKE: Voorsitter, kan ek miskien iets in Afrikaans sê, want dit sal soveel makliker vir my wees, want my is`se'' en -are`s’’ is nooit reg in Engels nie. Ek kom maar van die Agterveld af, daar in die Wes-Vrystaat, waar daar nie een persoon op Boshoff was wat Engels gepraat het nie. Daar is Tswana gepraat en daar is Afrikaans gepraat, maar daar was nie een persoon wat in sy huis Engels gepraat het nie. Dit maak dit vir my baie swaar as ‘n mens grootword en jy moet Engels praat. As ek maar liewer ordentlik Tswana geleer het, kon ek dalk ver gekom het.

Wat is visie in velde soos hierdie? Toe die runderpes uitbreek in die negentigerjare van die negentiende eeu, het Paul Kruger op aandrang van sy sekretaris, Jan Smuts, in Switserland na dr Tyler gaan soek om hierdie saak te bestry. Die runderpes het feitlik die ganse beesbevolking van Suid- Afrika uitgewis. Na die Anglo-Boereoorlog was dit weer eens Jan Smuts wat gesorg het dat Onderstepoort ordentlik gefinansier word, dat Tyler daar gaan sit en navorsing doen het, en stelsels ontwikkel het om veesiektes in hierdie land te bestry. In daardie dae was hy natuurlik ‘n genie. Daardie daad het veroorsaak dat dit moontlik geword het om in Suid-Afrika kommersieel met vee te boer. Die ou boer in die negentiende eeu het nie rêrig kommersieel met vee geboer nie. Hulle was bestaansboere. Eers met die ontdekking van diamante en later ook van goud, het hulle ‘n bietjie vleis begin verkoop.

Daar was te veel probleme met veesiektes en die enkele belangrikste faktor, soos mnr Durr geargumenteer het, om landbou in hierdie land suksesvol te maak, is dier- en plantsiekteprobleme. Dit is waarop die aandag van die wêreld is. As ‘n mens wil uitvoer, gaan mens geld maak. Ons staan ‘n kans om baie goed uit te voer. Veral vleisuitvoere na Saoedi-Arabië en die Midde- Ooste lyk goed. Alles gaan oor die sanitêre maatreëls. Ons kan nie uitvoer na Amerika toe nie, omdat ons met ons beesvleis nie kan voldoen aan hul vito-sanitêre en sanitêre vereistes nie. Proteas kan ons nie uitvoer na Amerika toe nie. Daar is geld te maak. As ons na Amerika kan uitvoer, kan tot vier groot voerkrale in die tradisionele gebiede gebou word en dit kan groot geld inbring. Ons kan drie verdere voerkrale kry so groot soos wat op die oomblik in Mpumalanga in die kommersiële area staan as ons beesvleis na Amerika kan uitvoer. Dan moet ons ons veeartsenykundige dienste verbeter en dan moet ons die veeartse beskikbaar hê. Dit kan gedoen word.

Daar is nie een voerkraal in die tradisionele gebiede in Suid-Afrika nie. Dit is soos die agb lid van die UDM gesê het, daar is goeie kulturele redes waarom die beesbedryf op ‘n sekere wyse in die tradisionele gebiede bedryf word. Daar is ook geen rede waarom ons nie ‘n voerkraal van 60 000 beeste in die Transkei kan kry nie en sodoende vir ‘n klomp mense werk kan gee nie. Daar is areas beskikbaar. Waarom sal ons nie in die tradisionele gebiede besigheid doen nie? Ons het mense wat daardie werk graag wil doen en kan doen. Dan moet ons ons veeartsenykundige dienste hê. Ek weet meer geld is nodig. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)

[The DEPUTY MINISTER FOR AGRICULTURE AND LAND AFFAIRS: Chairperson, perhaps I may say something in Afrikaans, because it will be so much easier for me since my is's'' andare’s’’ are never correct in English. I come from the bundu, the Western Free State, where there was not even one person who spoke English. Tswana was spoken and Afrikaans was spoken, but there was not one person in Boshoff who spoke English at home. This makes it really difficult for me as I grow older and have to speak English. If I had rather learned to speak Tswana properly, I could possibly have gone far by now.

What is vision in areas such as these? When rinderpest broke out in the 90s of the 19th century, Paul Kruger, at the insistence of his secretary, Jan Smuts, went to Switzerland to find Dr Tyler to combat this matter. The rinderpest practically destroyed the entire cattle population of South Africa. After the South African War it was once again Jan Smuts who saw to it that Onderstepoort was properly financed, that Tyler went there to do research, and develop systems to fight cattle diseases in this country. In those days he was, of course, a genius. That action made it possible to farm commercially with livestock. The old farmers in the 19th century did not really farm commercially with livestock. They were subsistence farmers. Only with the discovery of diamonds, and later of gold, did they start to sell a little bit of meat.

There were too many problems with livestock diseases, and the single most important factor, as Mr Durr argued, in making a success of agriculture in this country is that of animal and plant disease problems. That is where the attention of the world is directed. If one wants to export, one will make money. We have a chance of exporting many goods. Meat exports to Saudi Arabia and the Middle East look especially promising. Everything relates to sanitary measures. We cannot export to America because our beef does not comply with their vito-sanitary and sanitary requirements. We cannot export proteas to America. There is money to be made. If we could export to America, up to four large feeding-pens could be built in the traditional areas and this could generate large sums of money. We could also have three more feeding-pens as large as those that are currently in Mpumalanga in the commercial area, if we could export beef to America. Then our veterinary services will have to improve and we must have veterinarians available. This can be done.

There is not one feeding-pen in the traditional areas of South Africa. It is as the hon member from the UDM said, there are sound cultural reasons why the beef industry is managed in a certain manner in the traditional areas. There is also no reason why we cannot have a feeding-pen with 60 000 cattle in the Transkei and in that way provide work for a lot of people. There are areas available. Why do we not do business in the traditional areas? We have people who would gladly do that work and who can do it. Then we must have our veterinary services. I know more money is necessary.]

It is about money. We have to put more money into veterinary services in this country. It is happening in the new budget. We have more money. One cannot do it in a revolutionary way in one year’s time, because one has a person by the name of Trevor Manuel and he does not do things that way. We have to build it up. We are doing well and it is going to grow. We have a committed section in our department looking at these matters. That is the way to succeed, as was said by all members in this debate.

I want to thank everyone for a very interesting debate, as well as for the support for this important matter. We must come back to this House from time to time to report back on how this council is doing. [Applause.]

Debate concluded.

Declaration of Vote:

Mnr A E VAN NIEKERK: Voorsitter, die Nuwe NP wil dit onomwonde stel dat ons hierdie wetgewing met die amendemente steun. In die lig van wat die agb Adjunkminister gesê het ten opsigte van beurse wat toegeken word om veeartse op te lei, is ons bevrees dat die geld vermors gaan word, indien die taalbeleid van Onderstepoort nie aangespreek word nie. Die taalbeleid is slegs Engels: Engels in die klasse, Engels in die antwoordstelle. Laasjaar is daar op ons aandrang ‘n tydelike reëling getref om dit op te skort. Op grond hiervan het ons besware, maar ons stem nogtans vir die wetgewing. (Translation of Afrikaans declaration of vote follows.)

[Mr A E VAN NIEKERK: Chairperson, we in the New NP want to state unequivocally that we support this legislation, together with the amendments. In the light of what the hon the Deputy Minister said about bursaries being granted to train veterinary surgeons, we are afraid that the money will be wasted if the language policy of Onderstepoort is not addressed. The language policy is English only: English in the classrooms, English in the examination papers. Last year a temporary arrangement was made, at our insistence, to suspend this. In the light of this we have objections, but we shall nevertheless vote in favour of the legislation.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Order! Hon members, if you are allowed to make a Declaration of Vote, I would ask that you make sure that you are relevant to the Bill that we are deliberating. Exam papers are not represented in the legislation, as far as I am aware. Please stick to the legislation in your Declaration of Vote.

Bill, subject to proposed amendments, agreed to in accordance with section 75 of the Constitution.

 PROMOTING MOTHER LANGUAGE AS AN INSTRUMENT FOR SOCIAL, CULTURAL AND
               EDUCATIONAL DEVELOPMENT AND EMPOWERMENT

                    (Matter of Public Importance)

Mnr A E VAN NIEKERK: Voorsitter, baie dankie en baie dankie dat u hierdie onderwerp ook toegelaat het vir bespreking. Dit is baie belangrik dat ons moet kyk na die waarde van moedertaal. Ek is seker baie van die lede van hierdie Raad het die volgende gedig van Keet uit die kop geleer:

Jou vabond, wag, ek sal jou kry, Van jou sal net ‘n bloedkol bly … Pardoef! Dis mis! Daar gaan hy weer! Maar dood sal hy, sowaar, ek sweer My naam is Van der Merwe.

Boerneef sê ook:

My hart blom wit Vir die voshaarnooi Pluk heide van die rooiste rooi Vir hierdie einste voshaarnooi Bellabint my meisiekind Dis hartblom wit Dis heide rooi Vir jou my voshaarmeisiekind!

En my Griekwa-Afrikaanse vriende sê so:

Al sal ekkie tale van mense en van ingelse praat, Ma ek het nou die liefde geloop geryl virrie haat, Dan ek hat ‘n raaslike paraffienblik gestaat raak.

Voorsitter, en as ek kon sing, sou ek ook nou uit volle bors Sarie Marais gesing het, want vir my is Afrikaans my moedertaal, die taal waarin ek droom, waarin ek bid, waarin ek sing, waarin ek praat en waarin ek ook partykeer skel as ek kwaad is. Vir my is dit die mooiste taal. Ek hoop dat my kollegas uit ander taalgemeenskappe presies net so voel oor hulle eie moedertale. Dit is wat ons vandag vier en dit is ook wat ons ná vandag hier moet uitdra, naamlik die trots vir die eie en respek vir ander mense se moedertaal. Ons moet ook die verantwoordelikheid neem om ‘n vreemde taal aan te leer.

Daar bestaan nie ‘n sterker brugbouer as taal nie. In die lig van nasiebou en die Afrika Renaissance sal ons ‘n groot fout begaan as ons die krag van taal onderskat.

Suid-Afrika is ‘n land van vele tale, waarvan Engels slegs een is, maar op die oomblik kry Engels voorkeurbehandeling en soms is mens onder die indruk dat Engels in sekere regeringskringe as die moedertaal van die regering beskou word. Natuurlik is Engels belangrik, maar ons moet balans bring. Dit moet reggestel word, want soos Bengali in 1952 en ander tale in 1976 deur een taal bedreig was en dit ‘n kruitvat geword het, kan dit weer gebeur. Kom ons keer dit, deur bloot gehoor te gee aan die Grondwet van Suid- Afrika. Kom ons kry nou die langverwagte taalbeleid en Taalwet goedgekeur deur die Kabinet en deurgevoer in die Parlement.

Ons is baie dankbaar dat die agb Asmal moedertaalonderrig vir die eerste vier jaar goedgekeur het. Ons in die Nuwe NP sal ons egter saam met ander navorsers beywer om dit vir die eerste sewe jaar van ‘n leerder se skoolloopbaan ingestel te kry. Alle kennis word ingeneem en versprei deur taal. Sonder die minimum taalvaardigheid wat vir die besondere omstandighede vereis word, bly kennisinname en die weergee daarvan gebrekkig. Alle verworwe kennis berus op moedertaalontwikkeling. ‘n Té vinnige onderdompeling in ander tale, soos Engels, in Suid-Afrika, veroorsaak skade wat nie maklik herstel kan word nie. Ontaligheid of taalverwarring is een van die gevolge.

Taalvaardigheid het nie net te make met skool- of akademiese sukses nie. Dit lê ná aan die hart van enige kommunikasie en die daarmee gepaardgaande produktiwiteit. ‘n Moedertaal word eers op 14-jarige ouderdom gevestig. Talle leerlinge uit ander inheemse taalgemeenskappe ontvang nog steeds aanvanklik onderrig in hulle moedertaal, maar skakel selfs reeds in die tweede en in die sesde jaar oor na Engels. Die meeste Suid-Afrikaners voltooi dus hul skoolloopbaan in ‘n tweede taal. By baie van hierdie skoliere word die moedertaal dus nooit werklik gevestig nie. Daar bestaan ook afdoende bewyse dat daar ‘n direkte verband bestaan tussen die gebrek aan voldoende moedertaalonderrig en swak matriekuitslae. Die koste om moedertaalonderrig in te voer, word dikwels as ‘n verskoning gebruik. Dit is egter belaglik, omdat die indirekte koste van druipelinge nooit bereken en hierteenoor gestel word nie.

Sowat 30% van swart studente aan die Universiteit van Pretoria se taalvaardigheid in Engels was verlede jaar op die vlak van ‘n graad 7- leerling - standerd 5. Ek dink nie dit is veel anders by ander universiteite nie. Swak taalvaardigheid lê studente nie net aan bande om te studeer nie, maar kos die staat baie geld. Dit het die staat verlede jaar sowat R1,3 miljard gekos aan druipelinge en uitsakkers wat nie hulle studie voltooi het nie.

‘n Ander aspek is dat die SAUK ook aangespoor moet word om te herbesin oor die oorklank van opvoedkundige programme om te voorsien in meer as net hoofsaaklik die Engelse mark. Dit is goedkoper om dít te doen as om eie produksies te doen en ons moet êrens begin. Dit is egter ook tyd dat daar deur die regte mense by die SAUK geluister word na aanbevelings om veeltaligheid te dien. ‘n Organisasie soos Tabema speel hier ‘n kundige rol, maar word geïgnoreer deur die besluitnemers. Miskien moet politici hier betrek word om ook ‘n rol te speel, maar ek weet politici word baie keer as melaats beskou wanneer daar onderhandel word buite die Parlement. Dit behoort ook te verander.

Die probleem met moedertaal en veeltaligheid in Suid-Afrika is te vinde in ‘n gedagte dat tussen talle uitvoerende mense, mense wat besluite neem, veeltaligheid bloot as nog ‘n item op die prioriteitslys gesien word. Dan moet dit mos van die tafel afgevee word. Dit kan nie anders nie. Dit kan nie kers vashou met ‘n vigsprobleem of armoede nie.

Die Wes-Kaap, KwaZulu-Natal en Gauteng kan soveel nevirapine uitdeel as wat hulle wil, maar as die voorsorg, die nasorg en die voorligting nie in die taal geskied wat die persoon die beste verstaan nie, is hierdie lewensbelangrike besluit gedoem tot mislukking en sal mense aanhou sterf.

Hoe kan ons armoede aanspreek as iemand in sy tweede of derde taal moet gaan soebat vir ‘n lening om ‘n eie besigheid te begin? So kan ons aangaan. Selfs hier in die Parlement is dit onbillik as meer as vermoedelik 90% van die lede van die Parlement ander tale as Engels as moedertaal het en ons in komitees moet gaan sit en landsbelang moet beskerm en argumenteer in ons tweede of derde taal. Dit is nou tyd dat daarna gekyk word dat hierdie bydraes wat nou net verlore gaan, tot voordeel van hierdie land gebruik word. Dieselfde gebeur ook in die privaatsektor. Mense kan nie bydraes lewer in die taal wat hulle die beste ken nie.

Ons moet so gou as moontlik ‘n veeltalige taalforum in die Parlement skep om te kyk waar ons ‘n bydrae kan lewer om die Grondwet se taalklousule ‘n werklikheid te maak. Hiermee is ek en die Nuwe NP reeds besig. Ek het gister ‘n mosie gestel om die Parlement te bedank vir hulle bereidwilligheid om die eentalige wegwysers op die Parlement se grond te wysig. Daar is nou ‘n politieke speletjie wat gespeel word. Leë beloftes word gemaak van onder meer hofsake. Ons vee dit van die tafel af, want ons weet daar is reeds ‘n verbintenis om dit te verander en meertaligheid te kry.

Ons het ook die versekering van die Voorsitter van hierdie Raad dat wanneer ons nuwe raadsaal voltooi is, daar tolkdienste sal wees ook vir die mense op die gallery. Daarom moet ons vandag vir ons gaste op die gallery verskoning vra, aangesien hulle nie die totale debat sal kan volg nie, want dit is ‘n veeltalige debat. Ek is egter oortuig hulle sal die ``ambience’’, die gevoel, die welwillendheid van Afrikaans en die ander inheemse tale saam met ons kan ervaar.

Ek wil die agb Mushwana bedank, asook u, Voorsitter, vir die meertaligheid wat u by uitnemendheid vandag verder in hierdie debat ingebring het. Ek wil ‘n beroep doen op ons kollegas dat ons die beeld van PanSAT moet help bou. Dit is ‘n onafhanklike grondwetlike liggaam met die opdrag om taalregte te beskerm en die inheemse tale te help ontwikkel. ‘n Geruime tyd gelede het ek namens die Nuwe NP ‘n voorstel vir wetgewing ingedien, die sogenaamde Van Niekerk-voorstelle, om PanSAT afdwingingsmag te gee. Dit is wyd in die komitees gedebatteer en dit is einde verlede jaar aangebied by die Departement van Kuns, Kultuur, Wetenskap en Tegnologie. Die eerste raadsitting van PanSAT het daaroor besluit en besin. Dit is nou terugverwys na die Departement toe en moet nou net deur die Kabinet goedgekeur word. Ek hoop dat dit binnekort wet kan word. Ongelukkig het ons niks in die begroting gesien ten opsigte van veeltaligheid nie en dit bekommer as. [Tyd verstreke.] (Translation of Afrikaans speech follows.)

[Mr A E VAN NIEKERK: Chairperson, thank you and thank you also for allowing this topic for discussion. It is very important for us to look at the value of mother languages. I am certain many of the members of this House learnt the following poem by Keet by heart:

Jou vabond, wag, ek sal jou kry, Van jou sal net ‘n bloedkol bly … Pardoef! Dis mis! Daar gaan hy weer! Maar dood sal hy, sowaar, ek sweer My naam is Van der Merwe.

Boerneef also says: My hart blom wit Vir die voshaarnooi Pluk heide van die rooiste rooi Vir hierdie einste voshaarnooi Bellabint my meisiekind Dis hartblom wit Dis heide rooi Vir jou my voshaarmeisiekind!

And my Griqua Afrikaans friends say the following:

Al sal ekkie tale van mense en van ingelse praat, Ma ek het nou die liefde geloop geryl virrie haat, Dan ek hat ‘n raaslike paraffienblik gestaat raak.

Chairperson, and if I could sing, I would also now sing Sarie Marais at the top of my voice, because for me Afrikaans is my mother language, the language in which I dream, in which I pray, in which I sing, in which I speak and in which I also sometimes scold when I am angry. To me it is the most beautiful language. I hope that my colleagues from other linguistic communities feel exactly the same way about their mother languages.

That is what we are celebrating today and that is also what we must take out of here after today, namely pride for our own and respect for other people’s mother language. We must also accept the responsibility to learn a new language. There is no greater bridge builder than language. In the light of nation-building and the African Renaissance we will be making a big mistake if we underestimate the power of language.

South Africa is a land of many languages, of which English is only one, but at the moment English is receiving preferential treatment and one is sometimes under the impression that in certain Government circles English is considered the mother language of the Government. Of course English is important, but we must have balance. This must be rectified, because in the same way that Bengali in 1952 and other languages in 1976 were threatened by one language and this became a powder keg, it could happen again. Let us prevent this, by simply complying with the Constitution of South Africa. Let us now have the long-awaited language policy and language Act approved by the Cabinet and passed by Parliament.

We are very grateful that the hon Asmal has approved mother language instruction for the first four years. However, we in the New NP will strive, together with other researchers, to have this instituted for the first seven years of a pupil’s school career. All knowledge is taken in and disseminated by language. Without the minimum language proficiency which is required for the particular circumstances, knowledge acquisition and the reproduction thereof will remain inadequate. All acquired knowledge rests on mother language development. To be immersed in other languages too quickly, as is the case with English in South Africa, causes damage which is not easily rectified. A lack of language acquisition or language confusion is one of the consequences.

Linguistic proficiency is not only involved with scholastic or academic success. It is the core of any communication and the productivity associated with it. A mother language is only established at the age of 14 years. Numerous pupils from other indigenous linguistic communities are still receiving instruction initially in their mother language, but switch over to English in the second and in the sixth year already. The majority of South Africans therefore complete their school career in a second language. In many of these pupils the mother language is therefore never properly established. Conclusive evidence also exists that there is a direct connection between a lack of adequate mother language instruction and poor matric results. The cost of introducing mother language instruction is often given as an excuse. However, this is absurd because the indirect cost of those who fail is never calculated and contrasted with this.

The linguistic proficiency in English of approximately 30% of black students from the University of Pretoria last year was at the level of a Grade 7 pupil - standard 5. I do not think the situation is very different at other universities. Poor linguistic proficiency does not only hamper students in their studying but costs the state a great deal of money. Last year the failed candidates and drop-outs who did not complete their studies cost the state approximately R1,3 billion.

Another aspect is that the SABC must also be encouraged to reconsider the dubbing of educational programmes to provide for more than just primarily the English market. This is cheaper to do than to produce original productions and we must start somewhere. However, it is also time that the right people at the SABC listened to recommendations to serve multilingualism. An organisation like Tabema plays a specialised role here, but is ignored by the decision-makers. Perhaps politicians should be involved here to play a role as well, but I know that politicians are very often considered leprous when there are negotiations outside Parliament. This should also change.

The problem with mother language and multilingualism in South Africa is to be found in an idea that among numerous executive people, people who make decisions, multilingualism is merely viewed as just another item on the priority list. Then it must surely be wiped from the table. There is no other solution. It cannot hold a candle to an Aids problem or poverty.

The Western Cape, KwaZulu-Natal and Gauteng can distribute as much nevirapine as they wish, but if the precautions, the after-care and the counselling do not take place in the language which the people understand best, these vitally important decisions are doomed to failure and people will continue dying.

How can we address poverty when someone has to beg in his second or third language for a loan to begin his own business? We could continue in this vein. Even here at Parliament it is unreasonable when probably more than 90% of the members of Parliament have languages other than English as their mother languages, and we have to sit in committees and protect the interests of the country and argue in our second or third language. It is now time to look at these contributions, which are currently simply being lost, being utilised to the benefit of this country. The same thing is also happening in the private sector. People cannot make contributions in the language which they know best.

We must create a multilingual language forum in Parliament as quickly as possible to look at where we can make a contribution to make the Constitution’s language clause a reality. The New NP and I are already busy with this. Yesterday I moved a motion to thank Parliament for their willingness to amend the monolingual signposts on the parliamentary premises. Now there is a political game which is being played. Empty promises are made of court cases, amongst other things. We wipe it from the table, because we know that there is already a commitment to change it and to achieve multilingualism.

We also have the assurance of the Chairperson of this Council that when our new chamber is completed there will also be interpreting services for the people in the gallery. We must therefore apologise to our guests in the gallery today, as they will not be able to follow the entire debate, because it is a multilingual debate. However, I am convinced that they will be able to experience the ambience, the feeling, the goodwill of Afrikaans and the other indigenous languages with us.

I want to thank the hon Mushwana, as well as you, Chairperson, for the multilingualism which you excellently further introduced into this debate. I want to appeal to our colleagues that we should help build the image of PanSALB. It is an independent constitutional body with the instruction to protect language rights and to help develop the indigenous languages. A while ago I submitted a proposal for legislation on behalf of the New NP, the so-called Van Niekerk proposals, to give PanSALB enforcement powers. This was widely debated in the committees and was presented by the Department of Arts, Culture, Science and Technology at the end of last year. The first council meeting of PanSALB decided and considered this. It has now been referred back to the department and must now just be approved by the Cabinet. I hope that it can become law soon. Unfortunately we saw nothing in the Budget with regard to multilingualism and this concerns us. [Time expired.]]

Mnu S B NGIDI (kwaZulu-Natal): Somlomo neNdlu ehloniphekileyo, umThethosisekelo waseNingizimu Afrika owadwetshwa ngeminyaka yo-1996 unikeza izilimi eziyishumi nanye igunya lokuba yizilimi zangokomthetho okufanele zisetshenziswe kuleli zwe lakithi.

Esigabeni 6(1) zibaliwe zabalulwa lezo zilimi. Kulo mThethosisekelo uMbuso kufanele wenze izimiso eziyoba impumelelo ukwenyusa izinga nokukhulunywa kanye nokusetshenziswa kwalezi zilimi ezibaliwe kumThethosisekelo ukuze isithunzi salezo zilimi sikhuphuke, singabi yileso esasiyisona ngesikhathi sobandlululo.

Mhlawumbe okufanele sizibuze khona ukuthi sesikwenzile yini lokhu okushiwo umThethosisekelo? Kufanele sibheke ukuthi ukuba besizinikeza amaphuzu, mangaki amaphuzu ebesizozinikeza wona thina emva kweminyaka eyisishiyagalombili okuthi sikwenzile yini lokhu okubekwa ngumThethosisekelo. umThethosisekelo uyasho ukuthi uHulumeni omkhulu noma uhulumeni wezifundazwe kufanele usebenzise izilimi ezibalulwe lapha esigabeni 6(1). UHulumeni omkhulu noma wezifundazwe kufanele ushaye umthetho futhi wenze izimiso ezithize ukuze udlondlobalise ukusetshenziswa kwazo zonke lezi zilimi ezibaliwe.

Ngike ngizibuze mina ukuthi thina-ke mhlawumbe esikhuluma isiVenda noma isiShangane noma isiNdebele noma isiSwazi noma isiXhosa ziyenzeka yini lezi zinto ezishiwo umThethosisekelo ngoba uma zingenziwa lezi zinto kufanele ukuthi uMbuso, kungaba uHulumeni omkhulu noma osezifundazweni noma osemakhaya, ubuyele kumThethosisekelo ubheke ukuthi uthini.

Yikuphi thina esesikwenzile ukuze sihambisane nemigomo yomThethosisekelo. Ayikho enye indawo okufanele sibheke kuyona. Kufanele sibheke kulo mThethosisekelo thina esawemukelayo lapha ezweni lakithi ikakhulukazi ngoba umThethosisekelo wethu lapha eNingizimu Afrika waziwa njengophucuzeke kakhulu kuwo wonke umhlaba. Waziwa njengomThethosisekelo ohamba phambili ukudlula cishe nalezo zindawo okuthiwa amazwe aseNtshonalanga abusa ngokwentando yeningi. Ngakho umThethosisekelo wethu uyahlonishwa emhlabeni wonke. Kufanele thina njengabantu abasembusweni, mhlawumbe siqale kuyona leNdlu siye nakwenzinye iziNdlu nakwezinye izifundazwe senze lokhu okushiwo umThethosisekelo.

Okubonakala lapha ukuthi le mibhalo eminye etuswayo ekumThethosisekelo iletha ithemba kwabaningi. Ibukeka njengamanje iwutalagu esizamayo ukuthi silubambe ngezandla kodwa kube kubonakala ukuthi cha umnyama unamafu asifiki ndawo.

Izilimi zakithi zabomdabu azihlonishwa ngokulinganayo nezilimi ezinjengesiBhunu nesiNgisi. Kuncane impela abantu abaseVenda, abakwaNdebele, abakwaZulu-Natali, amaXhosa kanye nezinye izilimi abakubonayo okuletha ithemba okwenziwa izigaba lezi ezintathu zikahulumeni zokuthi zithuthukise lezi zilimi zethu emfundweni noma emabhizinisini noma empilweni yethu yonke jikelele.

Empeleni ngingasho ukuthi nakuba amandla namagunya sinawo ngokunikwa ngumThethosisekelo kodwa okuliqiniso ukuthi asihlukile kakhulu nokwakwenzeka ngesikhathi sobandlululo. Izindawo lapho kusetshenziswa khona izilimi zakithi zabomdabu ziya ngokuncipha. Lokhu ukubona nasemsakazweni noma mhlawumbe nakomabonakude. Imisakazo yethu naleyo okufanele ngabe ikhuluma izilimi zethu zabomdabu uyifica seyifaka imithonselana yezilimi zesiNgisi.

Mina ngiphuma KwaZulu-Natali. Kukhona umsakazo wesiZulu esiwubiza ngokuthi Ukhozi FM. Kunohlelo lapho bona abalubiza ngokuthi i- Speak Out. Ngiyaye ngithi uma ngilalele ngizibuze ukuthi kwasekuphele amagama esiZulu yini kuze kuthiwe lolu hlelo lona luzoba u-Speak Out? Into ebonakalayo le ukuthi cha izilimi zethu azinikezwa lelo gunya.

Okunye mhlawumbe okubulala izilimi zethu, ikakhulukazi okwenzeka njengamanje, ukuthi cishe amalunga akhona kule Ndlu nakwezinye iziNdlu asathatha izingane zawo ayozifundisa kulezi zikole okuthiwa ngo-Model C. Lezi zingane zika-Model C zikhula zingalwazi ulimi lwakubo lwesiVenda noma lwesiZulu bese kubukeka sengathi uma ukhuluma lolu olunye ulimi okungelona olwakho ungumuntu ofunde kakhulu nohlonishwayo.

Kuyenzeka lokhu ngoba uyaye ubone nabantu abaqashwayo lapha kumabonakude. Uma ukwazi ukusiveteza kangconywana isiNgisi uyaye uthole umsebenzi kodwa uma ubonakala njengami nje ukuthi isiNgisi usishaya ngokuciciyela awuwutholi kahle umsebenzi bese lokhu kulekelela ukuthi uma ushaya kahle isiNgisi uyawuthola-ke umsebenzi.

Ezinye zezinto esingazenza thina njengoHulumeni ukuze izilimi zethu zizosetshenziswa ukuthi mhlawumbe kube nezimiso nemithetho eshaywayo ukuthi izilimi zabomdabu ezindaweni ezahlukene azifundwe kusukela eBangeni lokuqala ezikoleni zethu. [Kwaphela isikhathi.] [Ihlombe.]

USIHLALO WOMKHANDLU WEZIFUNDA KAZWELONKE: Ngikholwa ukuthi nawe mnumzane uyangivumela ukuthi uma singaqhubeka kanje, sizisebenzise lezi zilimi eziNdlini zethu ezinkulu, sizothola ukuthi bonke abantwana bethu bazosihlonipha. (Translation of isiZulu paragraphs follows.)

[Mr S B NGIDI (KwaZulu-Natal): Madam Speaker and the honourable House, the South African Constitution, which was drawn up in 1996, declared 11 languages official and that they should be used in this country.

Section 6(1) makes special mention of these languages. In the Constitution it is provided that the Government should pass successful laws to increase the level at which these languages that are entrenched in the Constitution are used and spoken. This should be done to upgrade their status so that they will not just remain where they were during the apartheid era.

Now we should ask ourselves if we have done what the Constitution says. We should look at the fact that if we were to give ourselves points, how many points we would give ourselves after eight years, in complying with what the Constitution stipulates.

The Constitution says that the national or provincial government should use languages that are mentioned in section 6(1). The national or provincial government should pass a law and make certain regulations so that the use of the languages that are mentioned in the Constitution will increase.

Sometimes I ask myself if these things that are mentioned in the Constitution have been done, especially for us who speak Venda, Shangaan, Ndebele, Swati or Xhosa, because if they have not, the national, provincial or local government should go back to the Constitution to see what it says.

What have we done to be in line with the principles of the Constitution? There is nowhere else we could look. We should look at the Constitution that we adopted in this country, especially because our South African Constitution is known by the world as the most civilised one. It is known as a far better constitution than those of other Western countries which are democratically governed. As a result our Constitution is respected worldwide. We, as people in power, should start in this House and then go to other Houses and other provinces to do what the Constitution says.

What we see here is that these sections that are praised in the Constitution gives many people hope. At the moment they look like a mirage that we are trying to catch with our hands, while at the same time it looks as if there is just darkness without a cloud, as if we are getting nowhere.

Our African languages are not respected as being equal to English and Afrikaans. Very little makes one hope that Venda, Ndebele, KwaZulu-Natal and Xhosa people have seen what is being done at these three levels of government regarding language development in education, business and all areas of life.

In fact, I can say that although we have power and authority, which the Constitution gives us, it is true that we are far removed from the events that happened during apartheid. Places where African languages are used are decreasing. We see this in radio and television broadcasts. The radio stations that should use African languages are now mixing them with English.

I come from KwaZulu-Natal. We have a radio station that we call Khozi FM. There is a programme that they call Speak Out. Whenever I am listening, I ask myself whether the Zulu vocabulary is now exhausted as they call this programme Speak Out, which is an English title. This is a glaring example, which shows that our languages are not given the rights they deserve.

Another thing that destroys our languages that is happening now is that almost all members in this House and in the Other House have enrolled their children in Model C schools. These children in Model C schools grow up not knowing their language, which might be Venda or Zulu. Then, when one speaks a foreign language, it is because he is highly educated and respected.

These things happen, because one sees the people who are employed by television companies. If you can speak English well you are employed, but if you are like me, who cannot speak English well, you will not be employed. If you speak English well you get the job.

One of the things that we as the Government can do so that our languages can be used, is to pass laws which say African languages in different areas should be studied from Grade 1 in our schools. [Time expired.] [Applause.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: I think that even you, Sir, are with me in that if we continue in this way, using these languages in superior Houses, we will find that all our children will respect them.]

Mntwana B Z ZULU: Somlomo, amalunga ahloniphekileyo, nina beSilo, namuhla sigubha usuku lokuba khona kwezilimi ezahlukene umhlaba wonke.

Ulimi esilukhulumayo yilona oluba yisisekelo sokuba khona kwezizwe ezahlukeneyo ebusweni bomhlaba. Ulimi luyisipho esivela kuMvelinqangi. Luyiyona ndlela yokuxhumana phakathi komuntu nomuntu kanye nabantu nomhlaba wonke.

Unina wengane uqala ukuxoxa nayo isesesibelethweni sakhe. Uyakwazi ukwahlukanisa iphimbo lokukhala kwengane yakhe ukuthi lisho ukuthini nayo ingane into ekwazi ukuyahlukanisa kuqala yizwi likanina okuyilona eliwulimi lwakhe. Ingane iyakwazi ukuxoxa nonina ngokukhala futhi naye akuqonde kahle ekushoyo. Ingakhala imtshela ukuthi ilambile noma iyozela noma isimanzi noma iyagula kanti futhi ingakhala imtshela ukuthi isidinga uthando lwakhe. Konke lokhu ikwenza ngokuxhumana ngolimi eluncela ebeleni likanina.

Kuthi uma ingane izwa iphimbo likanina esondela kuyo, izizwe ithola imfudumalo nothando lukanina ize igxumagxume ikhombise ukumbonga ngoba iyaluzwa nayo ulimi alukhulumayo. Phezu kwakho konke lokhu incela ubuntu ebeleni. Konke ayifundisa khona uyifundisa eyiteketisa eyidlalisa. Ngisho noma ngabe iyakhala uyithulisa ngemilolozelo futhi ayithophe nangezithakazelo zabomndeni wayo.

Ngithi asibabonge-ke sibancome omama besizwe ngekhono labo lokusigcinela basifundise izilimi zethu kuze kube sesizukulwaneni lesi esikusona. [Ubuwelewele.]

Umlando wanoma yiliphi izwe usekukhulunyweni kolimi lwabantu abalakhele. Umuntu ulimi alukhulumayo lukhomba usikompilo lomphakathi akhulele kuwo. Ngenxa yomlando omubi wezwe lethu izilimi zethu zabomdabu zacindezelwa zadicilelwa phansi, abantu bakithi bahlwithwa ubuzwe babo, baqedwa isithunzi sabo, benziwa imihambima ezweni abalabelwa uMvelinqangi.

Uma ukhuluma ulimi lomdabu ubuthathwa njengento engelutho, iqaba, isidlova, into engaphucuzekanga, kangangokuthi kwaze kwaba nabantu bakithi okwathi ngokwenyanya ukwehliswa isithunzi sabo baze bathenga ubuzwe babelungu. Labo bantu babaziwa ngokuthi amazemtiti.

Ulimi yilona oluveza obala izizwe ngezizwe indlela eziphila ngayo. Ufunda olimini lwakhe umuntu ukuhlonipha nokuzithoba nokuthi unobuntu. Ingane ezalelwe yakhuliswa emndenini onemfundiso enhle iba nobuntu. Ayizenyezi ngeyikho. Ikhula izethemba ukuthi ikusasa layo liyizela nokuba ibe isakhamuzi sezwe esiqotho.

Ulimi lwethu esaluncela ebeleni luyisisekelo sokuchamisela ubuhle bamasiko ethu ehlukahlukene. Namuhla isikhathi sesifikile sokuba sikhulume izilimi zethu ezahlukene ngokuziqhenya. Kuhle sikuqonde kahle ukuthi akuzona ezokuba sicindezelane noma sicwasane ngazo. Ubuningi bezilimi zethu ezahlukene eNingizimu Afrika yibo obusenze saziwa umhlaba wonke ngokuthi siyisizwe esiwuthingo lwenkosazane.

Sikule Ndlu yezingwevu njengamanxusa amele izifundazwe ezikhuluma izilimi ezahlukene, kepha kuyadabukisa ukuthi sesibonakala sengathi yithina manje abantu bokuqala abacindezela izilimi zabantu esibamele kule Ndlu. Ukukhuthala kwethu ukukhuluma izilimi zethu kungavulela abantu bakithi amathuba emisebenzi okuba bazotolika izinkulumo zethu esizixoxa ngezilimi zethu ezahlukene kule Ndlu.

Njengamanje sibhekene nengwadla yesifo sengculaza ebonakala ibhubhisa kakhulu isizwe esinsundu. Imibhalo yonke enezincazelo namasu okubhekana nalesi sifo ibhalwe ngezilimi zabezizwe. Ngisho ngabe kuthiwa bayasizakala labo asebehlabekile nalabo abangakaguli, kepha abasoze basizakala ngenxa yokuntula ulwazi olubhalwe ngolimi lwabo.

ImiThethosivivinywa yonke esiyenzayo ibhalwe ngezilimi abangazazi abantu bakithi. Lokhu kwenza ukuba kube lukhuni ukuyiqonda ukuthi ithini. Noma siya siyokwethula kubo ama-public hearing, kepha iqiniso ngukuthi kuncane kakhulu esingaqinisa ngokuthi bayakuzwa, ngoba iningi labo abaluzwa lolu limi esisuke sikhuluma ngalo.

Izilimi zethu zinokucindezelwa ezikoleni zemfundo ephansi, kubabhali bezincwadi nabamaphephandaba, kanye emanyuvesi nakumabonakude. Lokhu kucindezelwa kwezilimi zabansundu sekudale ukuthi abafundi abazenza ezingeni lasenyuvesi banciphe ngoba abaqashwa ndawo. Ngeke baqashwe ngisho lapha ePhalamende yabo yaseNingizimu Afrika ngoba izilimi zabo zomdabu azikhulunywa. Kubalulekile ukuba izimali zokuxhasa ukufundiswa kwezilimi zabomdabu emanyuvesi ikhushulwe ukuze abafundi bomdabu bakhuthazeke ukuzifunda. Kubalulekile futhi ukuthi umNyango weziLimi uxhase ukukhuthaza izilimi zabomdabu ezindaweni zasemakhaya. Lokhu ngikusho ngoba yilapho sithola khona abantu abadala abakhuluma lezi zilimi zethu zabomdabu ngokungazingabazi.

Izizwe ezifana namaJalimani, amaJaphani namaShayina zaba nempumelelo kukho konke ezilkwenzayo ngoba konke ezazikwenza zazikwenza ngezilimi zazo ezizikhuluma endaweni yazo.

Emandulo ulimi lwaludlala indima ebaluleke kakhulu. Lwaluyindlela yokudlulisela amasiko kanye nezimfundiso zesintu ezizukulwaneni ngezizukulwane. Lwaluyindlela yokwakha izimilo nenhlonipho komncane nomdala. Ulimi lwakha ukwazisana kubantu abanomlando othile.

Ezinkolweni eziningi zomdabu ubuciko bolimi bungamandla. Ulimi luyindlela yokuxhumana noMvelinqangi nezinyanya. Ukukhuluma nezinyanya akukhona nje ukuchitha igazi lesilwane kuphela, kepha kuyaxoxiswana ngolimi uma kukhulunywa nabalele. Ulimi luyisizinda solwazi. Ulimi lwami lungenza ngiziqhenye … [Kwaphela isikhathi.] [Ihlombe.] (Translation of Zulu speech follows.)

[Prince B Z Zulu: Madam Speaker, hon members, you people of his Majesty, today we are celebrating the existence of all the different languages in the world.

The language we speak becomes the foundation for the existence of different nations on the face of this earth. Language is a gift from God. It is the way of communicating between people and also among the people of the world.

A mother starts communicating with her baby while she is giving birth to the baby. She knows the voice of her child when the child cries. The child can differentiate it and the first thing that the child knows is his mother’s voice, her language. A child can communicate with her mother through crying and the mother can understand well what the child says. A child can tell her mother that she is hungry, sleepy or wet or ill and she can cry if she needs her mother’s love. The child does all these in communicating with her mother through the language she gets through the milk from her mother’s breast.

When a child hears his mother’s voice as she comes to him, he gets warmth and feels the mother’s love. He jumps up to show that he thanks her for her understanding of the language he speaks. Above all a child sucks the milk of humanity from his mom’s breast. Everything that she teaches him, she does while she is playing with him. Even when he cries, she sings lullabies and his clan praises so that he will stop crying.

We should thank mothers of the nation for their talents, as they kept and taught us our languages until we reached the generation we are in today. [Interjections.]

The history of every country depends on the language the people of that country speak. The language that one speaks reveals the culture of the community in which one grew up. Because of the unfortunate history of our country, our African languages were demeaned and looked down upon. Our people were deprived of their nationhood, their status was downgraded, and they were made to look like herds of animals in the country that God gave them.

When one spoke an African language one was regarded as a nonentity, uncivilised, undisciplined and barbaric in such a way that some of our people, in fear of losing their status, bought the nationhood of the white people. Those people were referred to as the “exempted ones”.

Language is something that reveals the kind of lifestyle that every nation has adopted. One learns from one’s language how to show respect and also the principles of humanity. A child born and brought up in a family that has good teachings will have good humanity. That child is confident of what he or she is. That child grows up knowing that his or her future brings her or him the chances of becoming a good citizen.

The languages that we learnt from our mothers is the foundation for producing the beauty of our different cultures. Today is the time for us to speak our different languages with pride. We must understand well that we should not use these languages to oppress one another or to discriminate against one another. The great number of our different languages in South Africa is the thing that has made us known among the international community as the rainbow nation.

We are here in the NCOP as representatives of provinces that speak different languages. It is saddening that now we are seen as the first people to oppress the languages of the people whom we are representing in this House. Our effort to encourage people to speak our languages could open up job opportunities to people who can interpret the debates that we deliver in our languages in this Council.

At the moment we are faced with Aids, which is destroying the black nation. Many documents have explanations and strategies of how to face this disease, but these documents are written in foreign languages. Even though those who are affected by it could get help, they cannot, because they lack access to the knowledge that is written in the languages that are not their own.

All the Bills that we make here are written in languages that our people do not understand. This makes it difficult to understand what they contain. Even when we go to present things to them at public hearings, the truth is that they understand very little of what we say, because many of them do not understand the language we use.

Our languages are oppressed at junior levels at schools, universities, even at the level of book and newspaper writers, and even in the field of television. This oppression of language has caused students who study these languages at university level to decrease because they could not be employed with these languages. Some of them could not even be employed here at the Parliament of South Africa, because African languages are not spoken. It is important to increase the funds to sponsor African languages at universities so that students will be encouraged to study them. It is also important for the department concerned with languages to sponsor African languages in the rural areas. I am saying this because that is where we get elderly people who speak our languages without any hesitation.

Nations like the Germans, Japanese and Chinese have succeeded in everything they did because they did everything in the languages they speak in their areas.

In the olden times language played a very important role. It was a way of passing on traditions and teachings of humanity to other generations. It was a way of building character and respect in the young and adults. Language creates friendship among people who have a specific history.

In the African religion, language is powerful. It is a way of communicating with God and the ancestors. To speak to the ancestors is not just about slaughtering an animal; it is about speaking a certain language to the dead. Language is the centre of knowledge. My language makes me proud. [Time expired.] [Applause.]]

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Ke tla bitsa motlotlegi Gouws. [I will now call upon the hon Gouws.]

Mev Gouws, ek sien dat jy Engels gaan praat. Ek hoop dat jy ook Afrikaans sal praat … of isiXhosa. [Gelag.] [Mrs Gouws, I see that you are going to speak English. I hope you will also speak Afrikaans … or isiXhosa. [Laughter.]]

Ms E C GOUWS: Madam Chair, contrary to what is indicated on the speakers’ list, my speech will be mainly in Afrikaans.

South Africa is a multilingual country with 11 official languages. The Bill of Rights in our Constitution states that each of these languages enjoys equal status and respect. We must agree that achieving equality for all languages is a tough call, but it is very worthwhile trying. Mother-tongue education, at least at primary school level, is essential for equipping a person to face the future with confidence.

Ons land, hier aan die suidpunt van Afrika, is in baie opsigte uniek, en dan praat ons nie oor die natuurskoon, klimaat en die suksesvolle oorskakeling na ‘n demokrasie nie. Ons uniekheid lê in sy mense. Ons beskik oor soveel tale, gelowe en kulture, en dit maak ons die rykste én die blinkste robyn op die vasteland. Die ryke versameling van tale en kulture wat ons huisves, laat ons toe om soveel meer aan ons land te bied.

Hierdie nasie lê nog braak. Die kundigheid, intellek en vermoëns moet nog oopgestel word. Ons kinders, die toekoms van hierdie land, moet die reg hê dat die taal wat hul met moedersmelk gevoer is, die medium moet wees waarin hulle ontwikkel. Dit is al talle kere bewys dat leesvermoë vinnig ontwikkel in ‘n moedertaal; syfers makliker en gouer verstaan en verwerk word in ‘n kind se moedertaal; en die vermoë om te kommunikeer eers in eie taal van kardinale belang is. Selfvertroue en ‘n goeie selfbeeld volg op prestasie in moedertaal.

Nadat die fondament in ‘n moedertaal gelê is, sal ‘n tweede of selfs derde taal minder verwarring veroorsaak en uiteindelik prestasie tot gevolg hê. Die volle potensiaal van elke jong leerder in hierdie land moet benut word. Die geleenthede is hier. Ons het die materiaal. Ons moet dit net moontlik maak vir elkeen om die fondament van sy opvoeding op ‘n stewige basis te vestig. Die probleme wat ons nou as ‘n ontwikkelende land ervaar, soos byvoorbeeld gebrekkige kommunikasie, ontoereikende werksvermoë, ywer en lojaliteit, is die gevolg van ‘n opvoedingstelsel wat mense verwar het, en hul nie die geleentheid gegun het om die natuurlike opvoeding en ontwikkelingsproses te ervaar nie.

Daar sit talle mense in die arbeidsmark vandag wat ongemaklik voel, omdat hul selfvertroue ontbreek en omdat hulle besef dat hulle nie volkome toegerus is vir wat van hulle verwag word nie. Moedertaalonderrig moet nie as ‘n luukse beskou word nie. Dit is elkeen se reg om sy intellek te ontwikkel tot so ver sy talente strek, sodat ons waardige en knap mense vir ons land se arbeidsmark kan lewer. As ons Suid-Afrika ‘n wenland wil maak, moet ons nie die positiewe van moedersmelk en moedertaal miskyk nie. Ons moet daarin belê vir ons toekoms.

Niemand, en geen taal, is tweedeklas nie. Jou taal is die medium wat jou na hoogtes voer. Jy speel, droom en leer daarin, en as jy kwaad is, rol dit oor jou lippe en jy bid daarin. Ons taal behoort elkeen se trotsste besitting te wees. Dit is jou erfenis, wat niemand van jou kan vervreem of wegneem nie. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)

[Our country, here at the southern tip of Africa, is unique in many ways, and then we are not talking about its natural beauty, climate and the successful changeover to a democracy. Our uniqueness lies in the people. We have so many languages, religions and cultures at our disposal, and this makes us the richest and brightest ruby on the continent. The rich collection of languages and cultures that we accommodate allows us to offer so much more to our country.

This nation still lies fallow. The expertise, intellect and capacity has yet to be opened up. Our children, this country’s future, deserve the right to have the language that was fed to them with their mother’s milk as the medium in which they develop. It has been proven time and again that the ability to read develops faster in the mother tongue; figures are more easily and better understood and absorbed in a child’s mother tongue; and the ability to communicate in one’s own language first is of vital importance. Self-confidence and a good self-image follow on achievement in the mother tongue.

After the foundation has been laid in the mother tongue, a second or third language will cause less confusion and will eventually lead to achievement. The full potential of every young learner in this country must be utilised. The opportunities are there. We are the material. We must just make it possible for everybody to establish the foundation of their education on a sound basis. The problems that we are now experiencing as a developing country, such as poor communication, insufficient labour capacity, diligence and loyalty, for instance, are consequential to an education system which confused people without giving them the opportunity to experience the process of education and development in a natural way.

A lot of people in the job market today are feeling uneasy, because they are lacking in self-confidence and they realise that they are not fully equipped for that which is expected from them. Mother tongue education should not be regarded as a luxury. It is everyone’s right to develop their intellect as far as their talents may stretch, so that we can deliver worthwhile and proficient people for our country’s labour market. If we want to turn South Africa into a winning country, we should not ignore the positive contained in mother’s milk and mother tongue. We must invest in it for our future.

Nobody, and no language, is second-class. One’s language is the medium that transports one to great heights. One plays, dreams and learns in it and, when one is cross, it flows from one’s lips, and one prays in it. One’s language ought to be everybody’s proudest possession. It is one’s heritage, which nobody may alienate or take away from one.]

My colleague over there said something about the Afrikaans poets and he quoted some of them. Well, I am going to try something on my own. Hon members have a poet in their midst and they do not know it!

Die volgende is my ode aan moedertaal. [The following is an ode to the mother tongue.]

Die mense van Suid-Afrika is ons kosbaarste skat. Ons toekoms is gekoester as almal glo in hierdie debat. In moederskoot kry jy die melk met die taal. Dit, my vriend, is die kern om in die toekoms die beste te behaal. Dit is die resep vir groei, ook in selfbeeld en statuur. Dit is hulle wat sal veg in loopgraaf, mynveld en vir hul kultuur. Kom ons wees trots op ons land en vat hande in solidariteit. Kom ons plaas moedertaal eerste, sonder verdere verwyt.

[Applause.]

Rev M CHABAKU: Chairperson, hon members who are here, language is never static. It lives if we use it and it dies if we do not. It changes, adapts and modifies with every profound influence in our generation and our culture.

As individuals and as a country we have to work constantly at making our language relevant in our daily lives. In South Africa today we are luckier than most other countries because our Government is acutely conscious that our language usage is rich and diverse, and therefore makes a number of policy adjustments to actively promote mother tongue usage.

I am very happy to participate in this debate that deals with mother language, and not father language. I am not against fathers, but this happens to be mother-tongue celebration. I am proud that I come from the Free State and represent the Free State in this debate, because it had been the first legislature in the country to install the simultaneous translation of languages, even long before the national legislature did it.

We are also considerate of all other languages in the country. We have enabled the public to let us know beforehand who needs a translator and then we make provisions for this. Although we focus on three languages, namely Sesotho, Afrikaans and English, we do provide translators for Setswana and other languages should there be a need to do so.

It is a joy to hear on radio Xhosa, English and Afrikaans in Cape Town and Bloemfontein. But Free Staters want equal treatment. So we need to hear Sesotho and Setswana here in Cape Town, which should be equally available, because they are the dominant languages in our areas.

More often than not provinces find themselves making difficult choices when it comes to deciding which languages to use in schools and which ones not to use. A case in point was Thembisa High School in Gauteng, where they offered six African languages as first languages, and English and Afrikaans as second languages, which was their choice. Educators had their hands full trying to calm irate parents who learnt that Tshivenda and South Sotho were being phased out. Parents clearly demonstrated that they attached a great deal of importance to education in the mother tongue.

These real difficulties experienced by provinces should not impede the promotion of mother tongue usage. Every effort should be made, through our legislative and civil structures, to promote and defend the rights of each individual to use the language of his or her choice. If we undermine any language grouping for whatever reason, we will most likely find a case of dominance versus subordination, where the dominant group would not hesitate to exercise power and control over the subordinated group.

We must guard against such scenarios. We have already had the painful and devastating experience of apartheid with its enforcement of Afrikaans as the dominant language. All of that led to discrimination, peripheral imagination, the denial of group rights, and the oppression of social and cultural development.

In the past we were victims of English throughout our country. What a joy it is to see and hear on television beautiful South African schoolchildren in mixed choirs singing African songs and even keeping the rhythm. How we wish to see white children being as fluent in African languages as African children are in television programmes!

When a language exists as an official language, its role to increase social development can only be made effective if it forges communicative links and shared co-existence between speakers of different languages. Some of us in South Africa face linguistic mistrust because we are unable to understand each other. In the worst-case scenario, this leads to mistrust, fear, hatred, anger and estrangement, consequently widening the communication gap.

Today English does not belong to the British alone. The same goes for Afrikaans. There are more people who speak Afrikaans, the ``tsotsi taal’’, who do not have Dutch or German ancestry. It is truly a joy to read and speak other languages which are the first that a baby receives when it comes to this earth. It is a shame to those who still refuse to learn and speak other people’s languages and mother tongues. They really do not know what they are missing.

I remember when we were young, in the ANC Youth League, we used to sing in different languages. In the Youth League we sang in Italian:

Avanti popolo, alla riscosa Bandiera rossa, triomfera.

We did it! It is a pity my brother, Raju, is not here. I sang in Urdu and Hindi:

Par naa jhandaa na jhuka naa.

Those are the languages I spoke. They are the languages of our people, of the people in our country. I sang in Xhosa, Tshivenda, Xitsonga, even in Setswana. When one saw a cow coming, one would praise it: ``Malonko wa marumo se apa le toutou. Modimo nko metsi …’’ [Tsenoganong.] [Cow.] [Interjections.]]

That is who we are, and we as people of South Africa, said it also in Afrikaans:

Maar een Suid-Afrika

Gee my ‘n roer in my regterhand, Gee my ‘n bok wat vlug oor die rand - En ‘n flukse perd om hom weg te dra: Gee my Suid-Afrika. [Gelag.] [Applous.] [Laughter.] [Applause.]

Gee my ‘n vlakte ruim en wyd, Gee my my die veld se oneidigheid - En die lekker geur wat die lug daar dra: Gee my Suid-Afrika.

Ek kan nog aangaan en aangaan. [Applous.] [I could go on and on. [Applause.]]

We want to see how many of the other people in South Africa speak other languages. Mother tongue is ``baie belangrik, lekker, mnaa, sharp!’’ [good]! [Interjections.] E monate. [It is enjoyable.]

Today we say thank you to the ANC Government; we say thank you to the whole of South Africa. We are much closer to the each other than we were six years ago. We need to respect and celebrate one other’s mother tongues, even those that are not official in South Africa. There are the languages of God’s people, be they Arabic, Hindu, Gujerati, Chinese or others. Some of us try to meet and get to know people. When one travels all over the world and can say a few phrases in the language of the local people, one gets milk, water and bread. If one just sticks to oneself, and remains alone, one will die alone.

We have a long road to travel to educate our citizens who never saw the need nor showed the inclination or the desire to learn African languages. If we do not succeed in our endeavours to bring our various language groups together, a minority of our children will remain underprivileged by not being able to communicate with their brothers and sisters in our country. [Time expired.]

Rre D M KGWARE: Modulasetulo le balekgotla ba baleng fano, gompieno ke letsatsi la go tlotlomatsa puo ya setho. Fa ke bua ka puo ya setho, ke bua ka puo ya matsalo, e o e antseng mo letseleng la ga mme yo o go tsetseng. Ke letsatsi la go akgola le go tlotlomatsa baitseanape mo go tsa puo le bakwadi ba dipale tsa kgale. Jaaka re boletse, re rile mmangwana o tshwara thipa ka fa bogaleng. Fa mme a se teng go tlhokomela gore ngwana o gola sentle, go nna thata go mo rotloetsa gore a kgone go tsaya medumo ya puo ya setso, mme otla latlhegela ruri. Re tshwanetse go tsaya karolo mo letsholong la go rotloetsa dikomana tsa rona go ithuta puo ya matsalo.

Ke a pateletsega gore ke bue Sejatlhapi, go leka go busetsa menagano ya rona rotlhe gore re lebeleleng gore re fa kae. (Translation of Setswana paragraphs follows.)

[Mr D M KGWARE: Chairperson and hon members, today is the day for promoting mother tongues. When I talk about mother tongue, I am referring to one’s original language, the language of one’s biological mother. This is a day for showing appreciation and praising language specialists and authors of ancient novels. As we have said, a mother is the primary care-giver of the child.

When a mother is not there to take good care of a child, it becomes difficult for the child to adopt the sounds of speech of its traditional language. This will have long-lasting effects on the child’s comprehension of the language. We have to participate in the campaign to encourage our children to learn their mother tongue.

I am forced to speak English so that we can all understand and know where we are.]

The national agenda of the ANC is to unify all South Africans, and that is also the national agenda of the national Government. When we say we are the rainbow nation, we should not play or pretend to be that. We must be exactly what we are supposed to be.

I want to start by quoting from a speech delivered by Vigdis Finnbogadottir, who in 1998 was appointed United Nations Goodwill Ambassador for Languages. On the occasion of the Intergovernmental Conference on Cultural Policies for Development in Sweden in 1998, she said:

Everyone loses if one language is lost, because then a nation and culture lose their memories, and so does the complex tapestry from which the world is woven and which makes the world an exciting place. Every piece of history that we lose leaves a hole in the present.

Having said that, it is estimated that 6 000 spoken languages around the world today face extinction. This would represent an irreparable loss for humanity. And, quite frankly, we cannot afford to lose them, since they represent some of humanity’s most precious treasures. It is therefore our duty to contribute to the preservation of the world’s languages. History, and perhaps our own history more than anything else, has undoubtedly demonstrated that suppression and denial of mother-tongue languages have abysmal consequences.

When South Africa celebrated its elevation to becoming a member of the free world in 1994, the nations of the free world celebrated with us. Today we reciprocate that nascent kindred spirit in the same vein on this third anniversary of the International Mother Language Day, a spirit which is shared by more than 200 nations across the globe.

This day came into being through a unanimous proclamation by Unesco at its headquarters in Paris in November 1998. It was a resolution in terms of which Unesco said that the recognition of this day was to bear in mind that all moves to promote the dissemination of mother tongues were not only to encourage linguistic diversity and multilingual education, but also to develop a fuller awareness about linguistic and cultural traditions throughout the world and to inspire solidarity based on understanding, tolerance and dialogue. Lest we forget, this is essentially a day of tribute and homage to the intellectuals, cultural activists and language martyrs throughout the world.

As a nation, we are also commemorating the celebrating of our own martyrs who paid the ultimate price on that fateful day of 16 June 1976. Hon members know what it was all about; some were persecuted long after that day. It is precisely this universal martyrdom that resonates so clearly and so sprightily in the South African spirit today, a resonance filled with brilliant records of heroism and triumph - our presence here today is testimony to this - a resonance we, however, embrace with a huge sense of trepidation, since it brings to mind solemn memories.

I am convinced therefore that our purpose in assembling here today, and at gatherings elsewhere in our country, is to pursue and arrive at a destiny where all recognise, enhance and forge the partnership that is glaringly lacking in the South African lexicon. I refer to the partnership to demonstrate to the world that our plea, as South Africans, for reconciliation and nation-building through the promotion of mother-tongue languages, has never been an idle plea. It is a plea that is enshrined in our Constitution. Our universal recognition as a country to support the sanctity of mother-tongue language is further esteemed through our endorsement and signing of the numerous universal conventions.

Ke ka moo re reng sedikwa ke ntswapedi ga se thata. Re tshwanetse gore re kopanye diatla tsa rona gore re tle re kgone le go tlhatlosa moono wa puo. [Legofi.] [United we stand. We have to join hands to promote our languages. [Applause.]]

Mnr A E VAN NIEKERK: Mnr die Voorsitter, ek wil baie dankie sê aan al die LP’s wat deelgeneem het aan hierdie debat. Ek wil agb lede bedank omdat hulle in hul moedertaal gepraat het. Ek hoop dit was die begin, dat ons in meer debatte ons moedertaal sal gebruik, en dat dit nie net vir hierdie okkasie bedoel was nie.

Ons moet egter ook almal begin kla as ons moedertaal te ná gekom word, maar ons moet dit met waardigheid en respek vir die ander doen. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)

[Mr A E VAN NIEKERK: Mr Chairman, I sincerely wish to thank all the MPs who took part in this debate. I wish to thank hon members for speaking in their mother tongue. I hope that this was the start and that we will use our mother tongue in more debates and that it was not only reserved for this occasion.

We should all start to complain if our mother tongue is offended, but we should do it with respect and dignity for others.]

The Chairperson of this House said on one occasion that the NCOP must also be seen as the House that in practice portrays our language diversity. I think that is exactly what we are doing today.

I want to thank the hon member from KwaZulu-Natal, Mr Ngidi. He is right! The SABC should review their policy and provide a balanced service to all South Africans. We salute the mothers, along with hon Prince Zulu, for the role they play in teaching our children our languages. However, it is time that the mothers, fathers and children take hands and together promote and protect the languages of our forefathers.

Ek wil vir mev Gouws baie dankie sê vir die ode wat sy hier gebring het, en haar bedank vir haar bydrae. Ek is net jammer dat nie een van haar kollegas hier kon wees om dit wat sy hier vir ons gelewer het, te kon deel en ervaar nie. Weer eens, baie dankie daarvoor. [I would like to say thank you very much to Mrs Gouws, for the ode she recited here and I wish to thank her for her contribution. It is just sad that none of her colleagues were here to share and experience what she contributed here today. Thank you once again.]

I would like to say to Rev Chabaku that the Free State legislature is surely an example to this Parliament and the rest of South Africa.

Eerw Chabuka het my egter skaam en nederig laat voel, omdat sy Afrikaans só goed ken, en ek nie een van ons inheemse tale naastenby so goed ken as wat sy my moedertaal ken nie. Ek wil haar bedank vir haar inspirasie. [However, I felt quite embarrassed and humbled by Rev Chabuka’s sound knowledge of Afrikaans whilst I do not know one of the indigenous languages nearly as good as she knows my mother tongue. I wish to thank her for her inspiration.] Hon Oom Dawie is so right! [Laughter]. We will have to guard that not one of our languages disappears, because our special diversity is really the worthwhile thing that can unify us. Let me conclude.

Ek hoop dat hierdie debat sal voortduur, en ons nie hier sal ophou nie. [I hope that this debate will continue and that we will not stop here.]

I want to conclude by quoting from the Freedom Charter, as follows: ``All people shall have equal rights.’’ [Applause.] I hope hon members will carry this enthusiasm in connection with mother-tongue languages through to their constituencies.

HON MEMBERS: Yes! [Applause.]

Mr A E VAN NIEKERK: Because, up until now, hon members have been very silent about this. All people shall have equal rights to use their own languages, and to develop their own folk culture and customs.

The Bill of Rights gives every citizen the right to use the language and participate in the cultural life of his or her choice. Who are we to promote only one language? Let us do what is expected of us. Nobody else will do it for us and only we can make the difference. The time to make the difference is now. Let us do it! [Applause.]

Debate concluded.

CONSIDERATION OF REPORT OF SELECT COMMITTEE ON SOCIAL SERVICES -CONVENTION ON THE NATIONALITY OF MARRIED WOMEN

Dr P J C NEL: Modulasetulo, ke a se tseba Sesotho, ke a bua, empa e seng haholo, hanyane feela. [Chairperson, I know Sesotho and I speak Sesotho, but not so much, just a little bit.]

Ek is baie jammer dat ek nie my toespraak vandag in Sesotho kan lewer nie, want dit sou my groot plesier verskaf het. [I very much regret not being able to make my speech in Sesotho today, because it would have given me great pleasure to do so.] It is my privilege today to speak on behalf of a specific group of married women in South Africa. Women are the most beautiful creatures on earth that God created. Somebody once said something about women, and I quote:

We men admire them for their courage, we adore them for their beauty and we love them simply for what they are.

In spite of all this, discrimination against women on the basis of their sex has been a reality in many spheres of our society. Married women in particular have, over the years, not always enjoyed the same protection with regard to loss and acquisition of nationality as their husbands.

The international Convention on the Nationality of Married Women, held in New York as long ago as 20 February 1957, recognised ÿ.ÿ.ÿ. that, in article 15 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, the General Assembly of the United Nations proclaimed thateveryone has a right to nationality and that no one shall be arbitrarily deprived of nationality nor denied the right to change his nationality.’’ The convention aimed to address this kind of discrimination on the basis of gender.

The very first article of the convention states that ``each contracting state agrees that neither the celebration nor the dissolution of the marriage between one of its nationals and an alien, nor the change of nationality by the husband during marriage, shall automatically affect the nationality of the wife’’.

In terms of article 3 of the convention … ``each contracting state agrees that the alien wife of one of its nationals may, at her request, acquire the nationality of her husband through specially privileged naturalisation procedures’’.

This convention was adopted to promote ``universal respect for, and observance of, human rights and fundamental freedoms for all without distinction as to sex’’. This convention supports the same values as our Constitution. The state law advisers indicated that the provisions of the convention are not in conflict with South Africa’s domestic law and international obligations.

Article 4 of the convention is subject to ratification by both Houses after it has been signed by the member state. South Africa has already signed the convention, on 29 January 1993, but has not ratified it yet. The National Assembly has already approved the ratification of the convention.

Therefore, I now request this House to approve the ratification of the convention in terms of section 231 of the Constitution. [Applause.]

Debate concluded.

Report adopted in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.

The Council adjourned at 16:47. ___ ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS

                     WEDNESDAY, 20 FEBRUARY 2002

ANNOUNCEMENTS:

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces:

1. The Speaker and the Chairperson:

 (1)    The following Bills were introduced by the Minister  of  Finance
     in the National Assembly on 20 February 2002 and  referred  to  the
     Joint Tagging Mechanism (JTM) for classification in terms of  Joint
     Rule 160:


     (i)     Appropriation Bill [B 4 - 2002] (National  Assembly  -  sec
             77).


     (ii)    Division of Revenue Bill [B 5 - 2002] (National Assembly  -
             sec 76).
     The Bills have been referred to the Portfolio Committee on  Finance
     of the National Assembly.


     In terms of Joint Rule 154 written views on the  classification  of
     the Bills may be submitted to the  Joint  Tagging  Mechanism  (JTM)
     within three parliamentary working days.


 (2)    The following Bill was introduced by the  Minister  for  Justice
     and Constitutional Development  in  the  National  Assembly  on  20
     February 2002 and referred to the  Joint  Tagging  Mechanism  (JTM)
     for classification in terms of Joint Rule 160:


     (i)     Reinstatement of Enrolment of Certain  Legal  Practitioners
          Bill [B 6 - 2002] (National Assembly -  sec  75)  [Explanatory
          summary of Bill and prior notice of its introduction published
          in Government Gazette No 23142 of 19 February 2001.]
     The Bill has been referred to the Portfolio  Committee  on  Justice
     and Constitutional Development of the National Assembly.


     In terms of Joint Rule 154 written views on the  classification  of
     the Bill may be submitted to  the  Joint  Tagging  Mechanism  (JTM)
     within three parliamentary working days.


 (3)    The Minister of Communications on 13 February 2002  submitted  a
     draft of  the  Electronic  Communications  and  Transactions  Bill,
     2002, as well as the  memorandum  explaining  the  objects  of  the
     proposed legislation, to the Speaker and the Chairperson  in  terms
     of Joint Rule 159. The draft has been  referred  to  the  Portfolio
     Committee on Communications and the Select Committee on Labour  and
     Public  Enterprises   by   the   Speaker   and   the   Chairperson,
     respectively, in accordance with Joint Rule 159(2).

TABLINGS:

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces:

Papers:

1. The Minister of Finance:

 (1)    The Budget Speech of the Minister of Finance [RP 27-2002].


 (2)    Estimate of National Revenue for 2002-2003 [RP 22-2002].


 (3)    Taxation Proposals: Income Tax.


 (4)    Taxation proposals in respect of custom and excise  duties  laid
     upon the Table at 15:30.


 (5)    Division of Revenue Bill [B 5 - 2002] tabled in terms of section
     10(1) of the Intergovernmental Fiscal Relations Act, 1997  (Act  No
     97 of 1997).
 (6)     Budget  Review  2002  [RP  26-2002],  including  "Annexure   E:
     Memorandum to accompany the Division of Revenue  Bill",  tabled  in
     terms of section 10(5) of the  Intergovernmental  Fiscal  Relations
     Act, 1997 (Act No 97 of 1997).


 (7)    Appropriation Bill [B 4 - 2002].


 (8)    Estimate  of  National  Expenditure  2002  [RP  24-2002],  which
     includes:


     1. Memorandum on Vote No 1 - "Presidency",  Main  Estimates,  2002-
          2003;


     2. Memorandum on Vote No 2 - "Parliament",  Main  Estimates,  2002-
          2003;


     3. Memorandum on Vote No 3 -  "Foreign  Affairs",  Main  Estimates,
          2002-2003;


     4. Memorandum on Vote No 4 - "Home Affairs", Main Estimates,  2002-
          2003;


     5. Memorandum on Vote No 5 -  "Provincial  and  Local  Government",
          Main Estimates, 2002-2003;


     6. Memorandum on Vote No 6 - "Public Works", Main Estimates,  2002-
          2003;


     7. Memorandum  on  Vote  No  7  -  "Government  Communications  and
          Information System", Main Estimates, 2002-2003;


     8. Memorandum on Vote No 8 - "National Treasury",  Main  Estimates,
          2002-2003;


     9. Memorandum on Vote No 9 - "Public Enterprises", Main  Estimates,
          2002-2003;


     10.      Memorandum  on  Vote  No  10   -   "Public   Service   and
          Administration", Main Estimates, 2002-2003;


     11.     Memorandum on Vote No 11  -  "Public  Service  Commission",
          Main Estimates, 2002-2003;


     12.     Memorandum on  Vote  No  12  -  "South  African  Management
          Development Institute", Main Estimates, 2002-2003;


     13.     Memorandum on Vote No 13 - "Statistics South Africa",  Main
          Estimates, 2002-2003;


     14.     Memorandum on Vote No 14  -  "Arts,  Culture,  Science  and
          Technology", Main Estimates, 2002-2003;


     15.     Memorandum on Vote No 15  -  "Education",  Main  Estimates,
          2002-2003;


     16.     Memorandum on Vote No 16 - "Health", Main Estimates,  2002-
          2003;


     17.     Memorandum on Vote No 17 - "Housing", Main Estimates, 2002-
          2003;
     18.     Memorandum on Vote  No  18  -  "Social  Development",  Main
          Estimates, 2002-2003;


     19.     Memorandum on Vote No 19  -  "Sport  and  Recreation  South
          Africa", Main Estimates, 2002-2003;


     20.     Memorandum on Vote No 20 -  "Correctional  Services",  Main
          Estimates, 2002-2003;


     21.     Memorandum on Vote No 21 - "Defence", Main Estimates, 2002-
          2003;


     22.      Memorandum  on  Vote  No  22  -  "Independent   Complaints
          Directorate", Main Estimates, 2002-2003;


     23.     Memorandum on Vote No  23  -  "Justice  and  Constitutional
          Development", Main Estimates, 2002-2003;


     24.     Memorandum on Vote No 24  -  "Safety  and  Security",  Main
          Estimates, 2002-2003;


     25.     Memorandum on Vote No 25 - "Agriculture",  Main  Estimates,
          2002-2003;


     26.      Memorandum  on  Vote  No  26  -   "Communications",   Main
          Estimates, 2002-2003;


     27.     Memorandum on Vote  No  27  -  "Environmental  Affairs  and
          Tourism", Main Estimates, 2002-2003;


     28.     Memorandum on Vote No 28 - "Labour", Main Estimates,  2002-
          2003;


     29.     Memorandum on Vote No 29 - "Land Affairs", Main  Estimates,
          2002-2003;


     30.     Memorandum on Vote No 30  -  "Minerals  and  Energy",  Main
          Estimates, 2002-2003;


     31.     Memorandum on Vote No  31  -  "Trade  and  Industry",  Main
          Estimates, 2002-2003;


     32.     Memorandum on Vote No 32  -  "Transport",  Main  Estimates,
          2002-2003;


     33.     Memorandum on Vote No 33 - "Water  Affairs  and  Forestry",
          Main Estimates, 2002-2003.

COMMITTEE REPORTS:

National Council of Provinces:

1. Report of the Select Committee on Land and Environmental Affairs, dated 20 February 2002:

   The Select Committee on Land and Environmental Affairs, having considered the application by the National Agricultural Marketing Council for the implementation of statutory measures in the sorghum industry, reports, in terms of section 15 of the Marketing of Agricultural Products Act, 1996, that it has approved the recommendations of the Council.

                  THURSDAY, 21 FEBRUARY 2002
   

ANNOUNCEMENTS:

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces:

1. The Speaker and the Chairperson:

 (1)    The Minister of Transport on 12 February 2002 submitted a  draft
     of the National Railway Safety Regulator Bill,  2002,  as  well  as
     the memorandum explaining the objects of the proposed  legislation,
     to the Speaker and the Chairperson in terms of Joint Rule 159.  The
     draft has been referred to the  Portfolio  Committee  on  Transport
     and the Select Committee on Public Services by the Speaker and  the
     Chairperson, respectively, in accordance with Joint Rule 159(2).
 (2)    The Minister for Justice and Constitutional  Development  on  19
     February 2002 submitted a draft of  the  Prevention  of  Corruption
     Bill, 2002, as well as the memorandum  explaining  the  objects  of
     the proposed legislation, to the Speaker  and  the  Chairperson  in
     terms of Joint Rule  159.  The  draft  has  been  referred  to  the
     Portfolio Committee on Justice and Constitutional  Development  and
     the Select Committee on Security and Constitutional Affairs by  the
     Speaker and  the  Chairperson,  respectively,  in  accordance  with
     Joint Rule 159(2).

TABLINGS:

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces:

Papers:

1. The Minister for Justice and Constitutional Development:

 (1)    Proclamation No R.1 published in the Government Gazette No 23035
     dated  18  January   2002,   Referral   of   matters   to   Special
     Investigating Unit and Special Tribunal, made in terms  of  section
     2(2) of the Special Investigating Units and Special Tribunals  Act,
     1996 (Act No 74 of 1996).


 (2)    Government Notice No R.1087 published in the Government  Gazette
     No 22796 dated 26 October 2001, Magistrates' Courts:  Amendment  of
     the Rules of Court, made in terms of section  6  of  the  Rules  of
     Courts of Law Act, 1985 (Act No 107 of 1985).


 (3)    Government Notice No R.1088 published in the Government  Gazette
     No 22796 dated 26 October 2001, Amendment of the  Rules  regulating
     the conduct of the proceedings of the several provincial and  local
     divisions of the High Court of South Africa, made in terms  of  the
     Rules of Courts of Law Act, 1985 (Act No 107 of 1985). 2.    The Minister of Labour:


 Report and Financial Statements of the Tourism, Hospitality  and  Sport
 Education and Training Authority for 2000-2001.