THURSDAY, 28 FEBRUARY 2002 __

          PROCEEDINGS OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
                                ____

The Council met at 14:01.

The Deputy Chairperson took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayers or meditation.

ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS - see col 000.

                          NOTICE OF MOTION

Mnr A E VAN NIEKERK: Mnr die Voorsitter, hiermee gee ek kennis dat ek by die volgende sitting van die Raad sal voorstel:

Dat die Raad -

(1) dr Willa Boezak gelukwens met sy aanstelling deur die opperhoof van die Khoi-khoi stamhoofde van Suid-Afrika, biskop Daniël James Kanyiles, as die woordvoerder van die Khoisan-taal in die Wes-Kaap;

(2) kennis neem dat mnr A E Van Niekerk, as die taalombudsman van die Nuwe NP, graag aan die versoek van die opperhoof om samewerking voldoen en bevestig dat die goeie verhouding wat reeds bestaan, uitgebou sal word en dat taal as ‘n brugbouer en bewys van respek vir dit wat ons van ons voorvaders ontvang het, gebruik sal word. (Translation of Afrikaans notice of motion follows.)

[Mr A E VAN NIEKERK: Mr Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move:

That the Council -

(1) congratulates Dr Willa Boezak on his appointment by the Paramount Chief of the Khoi Khoi Tribal Chiefs of South Africa, Bishop Daniël James Kanyiles, as spokesperson of the Khoisan language in the Western Cape; and

(2) notes that Mr A E van Niekerk, as language ombudsman of the New NP, takes pleasure in complying with the chief’s request for co-operation and confirms that the good relationship which already exists will be developed and that language will be used as a builder of bridges and proof of respect for that which we have received from our forefathers.]

                      INTER-CONGOLESE DIALOGUE

                         (Draft Resolution)

Mr M A SULLIMAN: Chairperson, I move without notice:

That the Council -

(1) lauds the efforts of our Government and those of the rest of the Southern African Development Community countries upon their success with the establishment of the Inter-Congolese Dialogue that started at Sun City on Monday, 25 February 2002;

(2) notes that mediators are ensuring that the dialogue broadly represents the full spectrum of stakeholders, comprising political parties, civil society formations and rebel groups;

(3) further notes that this is a tentative, yet positive step towards the attainment of a lasting and just peace in the Democratic Republic of Congo and particularly the Great Lakes Region; and

(4) believes that these efforts represent a tremendous boost for the success of the New Partnership for Africa’s Development (Nepad) and would go a long way towards restoring the faith of the peoples of the SADC region in our ability to solve our problems through dialogue and negotiation.

Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.

                NEW CAST-IRON PLANT IN PORT ELIZABETH

                         (Draft Resolution)

Me E C GOUWS: Mnr die Voorsitter, ek stel sonder kennisgewing voor:

Dat die Raad kennis neem van die feit dat -

(1) Port Elizabeth se motorbedryf binnekort ‘n hupstoot van etlike miljoene rand gaan kry;

(2) die Bel-Essex Korporasie van Port Elizabeth, in samewerking met die Italiaanse maatskappy Almec, R109 miljoen in ‘n nuwe gietysteraanleg in die Baai gaan belê; (3) dit ‘n baie welkom finansiële inspuiting vir die motorbedryf in besonder en die streek as geheel is;

(4) talle nuwe werksgeleenthede, veral in die Nelson Mandela Metropool, geskep gaan word; en

(5) die mense in die Oos-Kaap verheug is oor die positiewe beleggers vir dié arm provinsie. (Translation of Afrikaans motion without notice follows.)

[Ms E C Gouws: Chairperson, I move with out notice:

That the Council notes that -

(1) the motor industry in Port Elizabeth will soon get a boost of several millions of rands;

(2) the Bel-Essex Corporation of Port Elizabeth, in collaboration with the Italian company Almec, is going to invest R109 million in a new cast-iron plant in Port Elizabeth;

(3) this is a very welcome financial injection for the motor industry in particular and for the region as a whole;

(4) many new job opportunities will be created, especially in the Nelson Mandela Metropole; and

(5) the people of the Eastern Cape are delighted about the positive investors in respect of this poor province.]

Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.

   INTRODUCTION OF TELEPHONE INTERPRETING SERVICE FOR SOUTH AFRICA

                         (Draft Resolution)

Mr A E VAN NIEKERK: Chairperson, I move without notice:

That the Council -

(1) congratulates the Department of Arts, Culture, Science and Technology on the pilot project TISSA (Telephone Interpreting Service for South Africa);

(2) notes that this trial will be targeted at 60 sites throughout South Africa, will run from March to December 2002 and will be managed by the Unit for Language Facilitation and Empowerment of the University of the Free State;

(3) further notes the positive role PanSALB plays in this regard;

(4) believes that the lack of clear communication in high-risk situations in hospitals and police stations can be resolved by the use of this interpreting service over the phone, where the interpreter need not be with the communicator or receiver in person; and

(5) notes that this is a first in Africa and a step in the direction of becoming really multilingual in practice.

Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.

PROVISION OF FURNITURE AND BEDDING FOR MENTALLY DISABLED CHILDREN IN
                    POLOKWANE IN LIMPOPO PROVINCE

                         (Draft Resolution)

Mr M I MAKOELA: Chairperson, I move without notice:

That the Council -

(1) notes that for many years the children at the Tsoga O Itirele school for the mentally disabled in GaMphahlele near Polokwane in the Limpopo province used to sleep on the floor;

(2) further notes that since Tuesday these children no longer have to sleep on bare concrete floors after receiving more than 100 beds, blankets, pillows, chairs and tables from the Minister of Public Works, the hon Ms Stella Sigcau;

(3) commends the Minister of Public Works for lighting up the hearts of these mentally handicapped children; and

(4) welcomes her intervention as proof of our Government’s commitment to roll back the frontiers of poverty.

Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.

                CONTINUED POVERTY IN THE EASTERN CAPE

                         (Draft Resolution)

Ms P C P MAJODINA: Chairperson, I move without notice: That the Council -

(1) notes that on the eve of Human Rights month it is still painful to realise that in the Eastern Cape thousands of our people still live below poverty lines and that children go to school and to bed without anything in their stomachs; and

(2) call on all South African citizens to extend their kind hands to assist the have-nots as part of working together in the concept of ubuntu and Letsima.

Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.

            BASIC CONDITIONS OF EMPLOYMENT AMENDMENT BILL
                   LABOUR RELATIONS AMENDMENT BILL

           (Consideration of Bills and of Reports thereon)

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr M L Mushwana): Order! I take this opportunity to welcome the hon the Minister of Labour and call upon him to address the House.

UMPHATHISWA WEZABASEBENZI: Mhlali-ngaphambili neentsiba zakho, mandibulise kumaqabane, kwizihlobo, kwizidwesha nezimamhlaba. Namhlanje sihlangene kule Ndlu ukuza kuxoxa nga le Mithetho isaYilwayo mibini ndiza kuyithi thaca phambi kwamalungu - the Labour Relations Act and the Basic Conditions of Employment Act. (Translation of Xhosa paragraph follows.)

[The MINISTER OF LABOUR: Chairperson, hon members, comrades, ladies and gentlemen, today we have come to this House to debate the two Bills that I am going to table, namely the Labour Relations Amendment Bill and the Basic Conditions of Employment Amendment Bill.]

Let me point out that there is a connection between these Bills and the department’s mandate for this year, the year of implementation, enforcement and service delivery. These amending Bills are going to provide my department with new and improved tools to ensure that it can fulfil its mandate and serve stakeholders with enhanced efficiency and improved effectiveness.

One of the key objectives of these amending Bills is to improve the application of these two laws. When these amending Bills come into operation, I am hoping to see improved enforcement of conditions of employment, both by the Department of Labour and bargaining councils where they exist; improved dispute resolution at the CCMA through the introduction of a number of measures, including a one-stop conciliation and arbitration process; improved registration and oversight of trade unions and employer organisations; a reduction in the abuse of workers by bogus labour organisations; and improved management of retrenchment disputes and the transfer of contracts of employment when a business changes hands.

One of the most innovative amendments that has been introduced relates to the regulation of retrenchments. This is a very difficult area. It is very sensitive and emotive. It is a tribute to the commitment of organised labour and organised business to social partnership that we have new provisions on which almost full consensus was reached.

The new provisions provide for a meaningful process of consensus-seeking before workers are retrenched. In the event that this process does not succeed, workers will have the right either to embark on a protected strike or pursue litigation via the Labour Court. However, the option to strike would be preceded by a further process of conciliation to establish the space for a settlement.

These new provisions have been particularly welcomed by organised labour. They should also be welcomed by organised business since they will provide more certainty, particularly since the provisions also set out time-frames aimed at preventing protracted retrenchment discussions. And, if employers and trade unions participate in good faith in the consultation process, problems should be solved without workers having to resort to striking. What we have proposed with regard to the so-called ``retrenchment clause’’ is in line with international jurisprudence. There is a survey that was done by a group of South African business leaders and the leadership of the organised labour movement on a fact-finding mission at the ILO, because what we decided to do was to take leaders of business and trade unions and also the top brass of the Department of Labour into the ILO for the whole week to discuss only section 189, which deals with retrenchment, and look at the entire world of jurisprudence on this issue. Hence the current section 189 in the amendments.

This package of amendments will go a long way towards assisting the department and the social partners with the management of labour relations in our country. These Bills send important signals, even to potential investors, that we have, indeed, risen to the challenge to deal with unintended consequences of our labour laws to contribute towards ensuring that hassle factors in respect of investment are addressed.

To organised business and labour, it is a signal that Government is committed and responsive to the changing nature of the labour market and is prepared to negotiate changes with them. As part of the process of producing these amendments, business and labour got together in the Millennium Labour Council and debated a number of proposals that were later used as a framework for negotiations at Nedlac. This was a very useful exercise which, of course, will ensure that these amendments have a high level of legitimacy and credibility within the business and labour constituencies. Only the feeble-minded would fail to realise that we have done our best to ensure that these amendments provide something to everyone while maintaining the elusive balance between labour market efficiency and decent labour standards.

We would also like to say to economic analysts, who blamed labour market regulation - because they had nothing to say for the poor performance of the economy in relation to employment, that we have been responsive to their feedback. We should not accept everything that we read in the papers, that is said by these labour analysts, because, up to today, we have not agreed on why our currency is bashed left, right and centre. It is precisely because they cannot agree on anything. My director-general knows that I am allergic to economists and lawyers, because we will never get the same opinion, even if we put 20 of them in front of us!

One of the objectives of the amendments is to ensure that our labour laws are more responsive to Government’s imperative to create jobs. We have attempted to achieve this through some of the amendments such as those in respect of basic conditions of employment and the role of bargaining councils in relation to small businesses. However, I am also of the view that blaming the lack of jobs on labour market regulation is very spurious. The lack of employment opportunities is a multifaceted problem, of which investor confidence is key, and the labour market dispensation is only one factor among many that investors consider when they decide to invest in our country. So to the extent that a negative perception exists about our labour laws, we have tried to address this. Even in the 15-point programme of the department, I indicate that we shall continue to review our labour laws, because there is absolutely nothing wrong in looking at areas that are posing some difficulties.

To workers who are sometimes called vulnerable or atypical - those who are not in formal employment relationships - it says that we are trying to make our laws appropriate and relevant to all situations. Of course, I disagree with Malamulele, who was saying that I must have a certificate for all people who are not working in this country and that they are exempting themselves from labour laws and that I must sign it, because by doing that, I will be saying to the people of this country that their Constitution is useless. The Constitution guarantees the rights of workers. Worker rights are human rights. I cannot sign a document that says workers in this country have no rights. It cannot be me, or this Government - in particular the ANC-led Government. We cannot do it.

To the institutions that we have set up through our laws such as the CCMA and bargaining councils, it says that we want our laws to assist them in their day-to-day operations. I believe that these amendments will make it easier for the CCMA and bargaining councils to carry out their business more effectively and efficiently. In fact, we have found that this area is the one that has been highly criticised, throughout our consultations, by both workers and employers. It is taking time to settle cases. And, as soon as we pass these Bills here and the President consents to them, we will be able to have even shorter processes for the CCMA.

Today, we are witnessing the culmination of a long process, a process that has involved consultations, negotiations, public hearings, and lots of legal drafting. It has taken us from July 2000 to bring these Bills to this House precisely because, in the Department of Labour, we believe in consultations, negotiations, public hearings and lots of legal drafting to the extent that, I believe, hon members do not doubt the goodness of this law. If hon members look properly at the law, they will realise how tight it is. This process has confirmed for us, as South Africans, the value of social dialogue - that inputs from workers and employers, and negotiations between organised labour and business can only lead to value-added and legitimate outcomes.

Therefore, it was not without reason that, when these amendments were tabled in the National Assembly in November last year, the debate was not characterised by conventional implausible platitudinous rhetoric, which is generally displayed by opposition parties during debates of this nature. Indeed, these Bills were supported on their merit by Mr Middleton on behalf of the IFP, Mr Blaas on behalf of the New NP, Mr Mfundisi on behalf of the UCDP, Miss Rajbally on behalf of the MF, Mr Madasa on behalf of the ACDP, and even Mr Clelland-Stokes on behalf of the DA. All of them demonstrated an appreciation of our challenge to maintain a balance between labour market efficiency and protection of the constitutionally guaranteed rights of workers to organise, bargain collectively and be treated decently. It was the first time that laws coming from the Department of Labour were unanimously agreed upon in the National Assembly. The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr M L Mushwana): Can you take your seat, please, hon Minister.

The MINISTER: [Inaudible.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON (Mr M L Mushwana): Yes, what is your point of order?

Mr C ACKERMANN: Chairperson, the Minister is referring to a party called the DA. I want your ruling on who the members of this party are and whether it was elected to this Parliament, because we do not know of any such party.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr M L Mushwana): Mr Ackermann, I heard the Minister quoting what happened in the NA. Maybe this party is there in the National Assembly, but in terms of the National Council of Provinces my ruling would be that we do not have the DA. However, the Minister was correctly quoting what transpired in the National Assembly.

The MINISTER: Chairperson, the hon member can also go and look at the Hansard, but I understand the comrade’s problem. [Laughter.] No point of order? I thought the hon member would jump up and indicate his intention to raise a point of order.

In conclusion, I would like to thank all those who made this process possible: the negotiators from organised business and organised labour, the Nedlac secretariat, the legal drafters, the labour portfolio committee, the Select Committee on Labour and Public Enterprises, and last but by no means least, the overworked and dedicated officials of my department, competently led by my esteemed director-general, Adv Rams Ramashia. Ke leboga ena. [I thank him.]

I trust that the support I received from social partners in crafting these Bills will be matched by even unparalleled enthusiasm in their implementation.

Rea leboga. Ha khensa. Siyabonga. Nangamso. Baie dankie. I thank everyone. [Applause.] Mr S L E FENYANE: Mr Chairperson, I thank you for calling me honourable. Let me start by indicating to the House that the passing of the Labour Relations Act in 1995 heralded a new exciting era in our labour market. We achieved democracy in 1994 and we could hardly bring ourselves to believe that everything would just go on as usual. We had to amend our laws to move in cadence with the democratic dispensation.

The passing of the Labour Relations Act in 1995 was given a tumultuous welcome by organised labour, political organisations inside and outside of the country and business in general. Its underlying theme was to democratise and stabilise the labour market in South Africa.

The Labour Relations Act of 1995 attempted to ameliorate relations between organised labour and business. These relations had been adversarial and our Government could not bear to allow such a state of affairs to continue. It would have been difficult for our Government to market our country and to solicit foreign direct investment if the labour market had remained obdurately archaic. It had to change.

For the first time in the history of this beloved country, we had co- determination introduced into the labour market. For the first time workers and management were expected to acknowledge that their destinies converged; that their goals were common; and, that their strategies, hopes and fears, indeed, formed a confluence that was mutually beneficial. This could only happen in the workplace forums created by the Labour Relations Act of 1995.

The Labour Relations Act of 1995 gave employers a right to hire and fire. However, that right was not absolute. What I find very exciting about democracy is that individuals, both severally and collectively, are given all manner of rights. However, alongside each right there is an obligation that guarantees the existence of a system of checks and balances. Obligations complement rights. In any democracy in the world the one cannot exist to the full extent in the absence of the other. In as much as a manager can hire and fire, he or she is obliged to satisfy the requirements of procedural and substantive justice, which are guaranteed by the Labour Relations Act of 1995. In the event that an employee is to be dismissed summarily, the onus is on the employer to prove either to the CCMA or the Labour Court that, as manager, he or she has been consistent throughout in meting out such a heinous eventuality.

The employer’s credibility is also important and central to the fired employee’s fate when the case is brought before the CCMA or the Labour Court. In cases where the employer is not credible or consistent, the employee stands a chance of being reinstated, with costs to the employer.

The Labour Relations Act also promoted and facilitated collective bargaining. It pronounced on the existence of the right to strike. However, alongside the right to strike there is recourse for employers. This was promulgated to move in consonance with the letter of the Constitution.

The Labour Relations Act of 1995 also enjoins us to observe international legal obligations and to let our legal objectives dovetail with the International Labour Organisation’s objectives and protocols.

The Basic Conditions of Employment Act of 1997 solidified and crystallised the imperatives of the Labour Relations Act of 1995. It did this by introducing regulations on working hours and by streamlining hours of work, overtime, breaks and work on Sundays and on public holidays. It provided comprehensive regulations on leave of absence and remuneration. It regulated the prohibition of child labour and forced labour. It gave the Minister of Labour powers to make sectoral determinations that may vary from some aspects of the basic conditions of employment.

When all was said and done, and when everyone thought that the promulgation of labour laws was all over, bar the shouting, an insidious cry surfaced in the print media to the effect that our labour laws were hindering economic growth; that they were impeding foreign direct investment, and, lastly, that they rendered the labour market very inflexible and unattractive.

The Department of Labour, under the stewardship of the affable Minister Mdladlana, who sometimes offers his services as lay preacher, could not just relax and dismiss the media complaints as mere hogwash. The department rolled up its sleeves, went to work and emerged with the amendments in front of us today. The introduction of these amendments was preceded by rigorous and laborious consultations with labour, business and community organisations.

The amendments to both Bills, that is the Labour Relations Act and the Basic Conditions of Employment Act, constitute an attempt by the department to make the labour market more flexible on the one hand, and to give employees due protection, on the other. The department has tried its utmost to find a sensitive balance between the demands of business and those of labour. The amendments, indeed, solidify the Labour Relations Act of 1995 and the Basic Conditions of Employment Act of 1997.

Comprehensive amendments were made to sections 186 and 188 of the Labour Relations Act of 1995. The department went out of its way to deal effectively with the existence of unintended consequences punctuating the Labour Relations Act text in sections such as 186, 188 and 189, which had received sustained hammering from both labour and business. This was an observation which was very ironic indeed. Section 197, as well as sections 10 and section 75 of the Basic Conditions of Employment Act, were also restructured.

Section 189 of the 1995 Labour Relations Act was operated upon with clinical precision by the department. The department went out of its way to define and describe at length the meaning of dismissal and unfair labour practice. It created a facility in which an employer can, with the consent of the employee, reach an amicable agreement for the two to seek predismissal arbitration when the employee is to be dismissed for one reason or another. In the face of looming retrenchments as a result of acquisitions, mergers or insolvencies, workers will not be left in the lurch.

The amendments to section 197 of the 1995 Labour Relations Act, together with the insertion of 197(1), 197A and 197B, outline packages of measures whose intentions are to protect workers and even their employers in order to make informed decisions and to confirm the stability of the labour market. In the two Bills in front of us there are presumptions that are rebuttable anyway, indicating who is indeed an employee. These presumptions constitute a singular, epoch-making intervention in the history of labour relations in the country, because once a person is said to be an employee, his or her employer should know that the former is then entitled to access all benefits and rights guaranteed by these two pieces of legislation, and to many of the other pieces of legislation that the state has ever passed.

I make haste to indicate that even members should be told, without equivocation, that once a person works for one, and that person is called an employee, then one is in trouble, because that person is entitled to access all benefits that go to any other employee in this country. That person could be the person who washes one’s car sometimes or a domestic, but once that person gains the name ``employee’’, then one is in trouble. It is hoped that the passing of these Bills will put to rest the complaint that the labour market is inflexible in the country.

It is also hoped that organised labour will embrace the spirit of this new amendment, whose intention is to protect employee rights and those of employers. The contribution by both employees and employers to our country’s economy is acknowledged by the department, hence the drafting of these two Bills.

I would like to urge members to support the two Bills, presented with proposed amendments to the House, because the ultimate purpose of these Bills is to create a labour regime that has decent labour standards and labour market efficiency. This is indeed exceptionally beautiful, and we all know that a thing of beauty is a joy forever. I hope this will urge members to support this Bill. [Applause.]

Mr L G LEVER: Chairperson, I am reading this speech today on behalf of Sandra Botha. Despite common agreement around the positive aspects of the Budget, a common concern remains that the unemployment rate in this country is growing steadily, but job creation is not growing in the Minister’s fruitful garden.

Even if the SA Revenue Service were more effective in collaring tax evaders and millions extra entered the Treasury’s coffers, millions of individuals could, nevertheless, not be taxed, simply because they do not have an income at all. They do not have jobs. Without jobs people cannot have dignity. Without dignity, the Constitution is an empty promise, even a cruel joke.

Nevertheless, there is much to commend in this legislation. Even though the formation of the Millennium Labour Council in July 2000 consolidated a joint recognition of the crisis of poverty, inequality and unemployment facing the country, the sophistication of our labour legislation has often been slated as a major contributor to the dearth of employment opportunities in this country. At this point I must interject that I agree with the hon the Minister. Even though this is only one of the factors affecting employment, it is without doubt an important factor.

While most people are in agreement with the basic philosophy which underlies this legislation, the impact has been perversely to limit new job opportunities while entrenching the rights of the shrinking number of employed. Even if this can still be circumvented to some extent in businesses dependent on the upper end of the labour market, new entrants and those who have little training or skills are simply not finding work.

Where I live people are desperate for work. Young, able-bodied men and women have been jobless for years, and they are going to remain thus. They wake up in the morning without prospects and without hope. They are probably never going to have a job. The schooling which they received at great expense and sacrifice will come to nought. I am going into this at great length, because it is my daily personal experience. I do not have to be told that there are aspects of our labour laws which promote unemployment. They are there for anyone to see who has ever been an employer - even in the way the hon chairperson of the select committee dealt with this. The implication of his speech was: Beware. Once one gains the title of employee, one is in trouble as the employer. That says a lot, with respect, hon Minister.

The changes to the existing legislation wrought by these amendments are the result of long negotiations, and seem to uphold important gains made for labour. We are delighted with this achievement. The DP, on behalf of the Democratic Alliance - I would like to say to Mr Ackermann who, I think, has left now - supports any measure which will make it easier to employ people.

The new legislative framework which now governs our labour market still offers substantial stability to the employed. But, nevertheless, we would welcome more substantial change along the lines introduced here: a wider definition of independent contractors, of which there are many genuine cases now being adversely affected by the amended legislation, along with our general drive for less regulation and more flexibility. While all of us complain about the amount of tax we have to pay, our legislation should be aimed at making taxpayers of all of us.

The DP, on behalf of the Democratic Alliance, supports these amendments, because they show a growing consensus on the need to create an employment- friendly environment for both small and large employers and for both the employed and the unemployed. [Applause.]

Ms B N DLULANE: Chairperson, Mphathiswa obekekileyo, Dlamini, hon members, ladies and gentlemen, Kungelishwa ukuba ndisukume emva kogxa wam, ethetha ngokuba akaboni nkqubela inokuzisa imisebenzi. Kambe ke ngelishwa ndithi mna … [it is unfortunate that I have to stand and speak after my colleague who says that he sees no progress that could create job opportunities. Unfortunately, I would like to say that …] one of the features key to the prosperity of any democracy, in particular our young democracy, is the need to build an economy that, amongst others things, provides and creates jobs; an economy that secures jobs; an economy that provides certainty on employers’ rights and obligations; an economy that facilitates and encourages job retention and constructive alternatives to dismissal; an economy that promotes fair labour practices to protect workers’ rights; an economy that is committed to the efficiency of the labour market and, thus, an economy that is investor-friendly in order to create a platform for more job creation.

Today I am standing here to say that these Bills are just about that, these amendments. That is why I was saying … ndinengxaki ngokuba ndisukume emva komntu ongayiboniyo loo nto. [I have a problem with speaking after a person who says he cannot see any form of progress.]

This is a message to our people, the workers in particular, that the ANC- led Government is responsible for changing the nature of the labour market and for addressing the concerns and problems of all our stakeholders, that is organised labour, business, unorganised labour, investors and small business. Therefore it is a great honour for me to say on behalf of my committee that we support these amendments. It is also with great gratitude and enthusiasm that I state that this amendment has enjoyed substantial support from most stakeholders, particularly organised labour and business.

We come from a past where labour rights were nothing but protection for a minority, but today we are speaking a different language. The Government of the people is committed to fair labour practices and to protecting the rights of our workers - the rights our people fought and died for. The fundamental change introduced by the Labour Relations Amendment Bill, which will affect acquisitions of businesses as going concerns, is the automatic transfer of contracts of employment of the employees of the businesses being acquired.

This simply means that the new employer will automatically take the place of the old employer in respect of all contracts of employment in existence before the date of transfer. This entails that this transfer will not interrupt employees continuity of employment. This is very important as we have witnessed in the past that when a company was transferred to a new owner or when it went insolvent, the rights of the employees were not protected, such that they were the last to be considered, to a point that most of our people found themselves without jobs when they still had to, firstly, pay their accounts; secondly, take their children to school; and, thirdly, support their families. Some of them did not even get packages or the benefits that were due to them.

Yiyo loo nto ke sisithi, ngokunxulumene nokuzika kwenkampani, uMthetho obizwa ngokuba yiLabour Relations Act uyavumelena noMthetho obizwa ngokuba yiBasic Conditions of Employment Act omalunga neemeko zengqesho ezingundoqo, ngezindululo eziya kuthi zisuse umxakatho emagxeni abasebenzi abajongene nengxaki yokuzika kwenkampani.

Ezi zindululo zihamba ngolu hlobo: Okokuqala, abaqeshi mabazise kwakamsinya ngokuba inkampani ijongene nokuzika, ngaxeshanye, iingxelo zithunyelwe kwiimanyano zabasebenzi. Abasebenzi mababekwe phambili njengabantu abatyalwa imali, abaxatyiswe ngcono, ukwenzela ukuba bakwazi ukufumana intlawulo epheleleyo kwiinkampani ezikileyo. Kwakhona, intlawulo ekhutshwa ngabasebenzi nabaqeshi kwingxowamali yomhlala-phantsi kufuneka ijongwe ngeliso elibukhali ukwenzela ukuba abasebenzi bakwazi … (Translation of Xhosa paragraphs follows.)

[That is why, with regard to the liquidation of a company, we say that the Labour Relations Act and the Basic Conditions of Employment Act are in agreement about the proposals that will remove the burden from workers that are faced with the problem of a company that is being liquidated. These proposals are as follows: Firstly, the employers must announce as soon as possible that the company is facing liquidation, and have reports sent to workers’ unions at the same time. The workers should be considered as the most valuable asset and be considered first as being creditors so that they could get their packages or benefits that are due to them by the liquidated company. Furthermore, the workers’ and employers’ contribution to the pension fund should be monitored to enable workers to … ]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr M L Nushwana): Order! hon member, can you take your seat. Please take your seat.

Mnr A E VAN NIEKERK: Voorsitter, op ‘n punt van orde: Hoewel ons waardering het vir die verskillende tale waarin die kollega praat, is dit onmoontlik om dit met die swak kwaliteit tolkdiens wat daar is, te volg. Die tolkdiens is óf afwesig, óf dit is absoluut power. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraph follows.)

[Mr A E VAN NIEKERK: Chairperson, on a point of order: Although we appreciate the various languages the colleague is speaking, it is impossible to follow them by means of the poor quality of the interpreting service that exists. The interpreting service is either absent, or it is absolutely poor.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr M L Mushwana): Order! I am informed that there is no interpretation service. Can somebody see to it that there is interpretation? But, continue hon member, we will learn along the way.

Nksz B N DLULANG: Mhlalingaphambili, ngelishwa kubhaliwe kolu luhlu ukuba ndiya kuthetha ulwimi lwasekhaya, isiNtu, isiXhosa. Kungelishwa ke ukuba kungabikho mntu uyiguqulayo intetho yam.

Bendisaxelela le Ndlu ngezindululo ekuvunyelwene ngazo malunga namanyathelo ekufuneka alandelwe xa sukuba inkampani izika. Bendikumhlathi wesithathu.

Intlawulo ekhutshwa ngabasebenzi nabaqeshi, isiya kwiNgxowa-mali yoMhlalaphantsi, kufuneka ijongwe ngeliso elibukhali ukwenzela ukuba abasebenzi bakwazi ukuyifumana, ingaziki nenkampani. Njengoko abasebenzi bebekeka kwimeko emaxongo kwiimeko ezinje, isindululo sithi kufuneka zincitshiswe ezo zinto. (Translation of Xhosa paragraphs follows.)

Ms B N DLULANG: Chairperson, it is written on this report that I shall be speaking my mother tongue, my native language, isiXhosa. It is unfortunate that there is nobody to interpret my speech.]

[[I was still informing this House about the proposals that have been agreed upon concerning the steps that need to be followed when a company is liquidated. I was on the third paragraph.

The workers’ and employers’ contributions to the Pension Fund must be closely monitored to ensure that it is available to workers and not lost when the company is in liquidation. As workers are placed in a precarious situation under such conditions, the proposal is that such incidents should be reduced.]

This amendment clarifies that workers’ contributions to the benefit funds should not form part of the liquidated business estate, and these contributions should be held in trust, separate from the business’ current account and upon liquidation paid over to the respective funds.

It is a fact that in the past some of these funds became part of the insolvent estate, so that the employees did not receive their dues. Therefore, these amendments clarify the obligations of the new and old employers in respect of collective agreements, pensions, provident fund contributions, outstanding claims and circumstances under which severance pay can be claimed.

One of the favourable aspects of this Bill is the element of presumption. It requires the employer to rebut the evidence by an employee by proving that the person is not working for him. This rebuttable presumption, regardless of the form of the contract, presumes the person to be an employee if any of the following factors are present: firstly, the manner in which the person works is subject to the control or direction of another person; secondly, the person’s hours of work are subject to the control or direction of another person; and thirdly, in the case of a person who works for an organisation, he or she is a member of that organisation.

This section on rebuttable presumption is crucial as it attempts to address the practice of converting contracts of employment into contracts of service without altering the employment relationship, thus converting genuine employees into independent contractors. As a result of these proposed amendments, workers in such situations will receive effective protection of the labour law, including the right to lodge a dispute in the event of an unfair dismissal or unfair discrimination and the violation of the basic conditions of employment.

[Ibifudula ingekho ke loo nto, kodwa ngoku ikhona ngenxa yesi sininzi asikhokeleyo kule Komiti umhlekazi, uMphathiswa ohloniphekileyo.] [That used not to be the case, but it is now, because of the majority of this committee that the hon Minister of Labour leads.]

To conclude, I would like to mention that this has been a challenging process and definitely not an easy one. Therefore, I would like to thank Nedlac, and the department in particular, for the role they have played, and the various stakeholders who have been willing and keen participants in an effort to build our nation as a union for a better life for all.

Siyayamkela siyixhasa yonke le mipoposho iziswe kuthi siyiKomiti kwanombutho. [Kwaqhwatywa.] [We accept as well as support all these proposals brought to us as the committee and as the organisation.] [Applause.]]

Mr M J BHENGU: Chairperson, since 1994, there has been intense debate within and without Government corridors about how to reform the labour programmes inherited from the apartheid government. The result has been an unprecedented process of negotiations and consultations relating to all the spheres of industrial relations. This resulted in the proclamation of the Labour Relations Act of 1995, the Basic Conditions of Employment Act of 1997, the Employment Act of 1997, the Employment Equity Act of 1998 and the Skills Development Act of 1999.

Therefore, the Labour Relations Act not only ushered South Africa into an era of industrial relations that was unfamiliar, but also had a profound impact on the workplace and employment relations. As the democracy developed, it became necessary to amend the Labour Relations Act to accommodate the changing industrial relations environment.

Since 1994, this Government has sought to address the exploitation of vulnerable workers, the phenomenon of the working poor and inequality and discrimination against all workers along racial and gender lines. Therefore the amendments before this House are an endeavour to look at, firstly, the workers’ basic rights; secondly, the protection of collective bargaining, thirdly, human resources development, and fourthly, the wage and occupational structures.

Furthermore, what is important is that these amendments will encourage employers to open new businesses or continue to expand existing businesses. The amendment will significantly enhance the effective management of disputes and lead to greater stability in the labour market and improved services to those who need them most.

It is my pleasure to say that the IFP does have some concerns in a few focus areas within those amendments. One of those concerns is the area of sympathy strikers, particularly in respect of retrenchments. We all know that retrenchment is a highly emotive issue. It is the IFP’s opinion that sympathy strikers by and large have a tendency of punishing the innocent institutions more than the culprits who are indeed the cause of the very strike. However, the IFP supports the package presented in these two Bills. We believe that these amendments will lay to rest the period of conflict that has thus far existed, and that we will see a new, shared commitment by both the labour and business components in taking these amendments forward. [Applause.]

Ms N D NTWANAMBI: Chairperson, Zizi ohloniphekileyo, maqabane kunye namanye amalungu, [hon President, comrades and hon members …] today we are here to testify that the people are governing. The people have spoken. The Government of the people is indeed listening to and doing something about the concerns of our people, the workers and their rights.

We have come a long way as the people of this country. In the not so distant past our people were denied their rights as workers. They were abused and exploited. The rest is no secret. Fortunately, that is a thing of the past, and never, never again will our people’s rights to fair labour practices be compromised. This is a great honour for me and an incredible feeling to stand up before this House to deliver such a meaningful message, one that will improve the working conditions of our people and labour practices in our democracy.

I stand here to boldly say that we support the amendments. We support the protection of our workers. Our people have fought for their democracy. Indeed, the people are governing. Within the few years that the ANC has been in power, our people are able to comment on and influence the laws that affect their daily lives.

The ANC’s slogan of ``a better life for all’’ is not just a slogan, but a conviction and a commitment to our people that we will, indeed, have a better life for all. We are excited about the support and acceptance of these amendments by the broader South African community, business and our trade unions, particularly the giant trade union federation, Cosatu. This shows our commitment as a nation to a better democratic and prosperous South Africa. They portray high levels of credibility and legitimacy.

Ndithi umanyano ngamandla! [I say unity is strength!] Together and united as a nation we will overcome the obstacles and challenges before us. In the present climate of high unemployment and large numbers of retrenchments, the amendment of these Bills seek to provide maximum certainty of employees’ rights and obligations. The amending Bills also seek to promote labour stability, facilitate and encourage job retention and constructive alternatives to dismissal.

Nanjengoko ezinye izinto sele zithethiwe, akubalulekanga ukuba siziphinda- phinde. Esi sivumelwano senziwe neemanyano zabasebenzi asisayi kusingelwa phantsi ngabaqeshi, yaye abasebenzi baya kubandakanyeka ezingxoxweni ngokuthi bamelwe ziinkokeli zabo.

Esona sihlomelo sibalulekileyo sesi sithi: Phambi kokuba ubani aqale ngokugxotha, kufuneka enze iinzame zokungagxothi.Okwesibini, umqeshi akanawo amandla okugqiba yedwa ukuba uyagxotha. Ukuba iimeko zithi umqeshi makagxothe, makazame ukuba ingabi linani elikhulu aligxothayo, ukuze lingandi inani labantu abaswele imisebenzi.

Kwakhona, abo bachongelwe ukuphelelwa ngumsebenzi kufuneka bewazile amalungelo abo kwanentlawulo elunge kubo phambi kokuba baphume emsebenzini, kungathiwa baya kuhlawulwa xa sele besidla umhla-phantsi babe bengazi nokuba yimalini na abamele kukuyifumana. (Translation of Xhosa paragraphs follows.)

[As other points have already been dealt with, it is not necessary to repeat them. The decision that has been entered into with workers’ unions will not be undermined by employers, and workers will be involved in discussions through their representatives.

The most important amending clause is the one that says, firstly: ``Before firing employees, employers have to try other remedial measures.’’ Secondly, an employer does not have the right to unilaterally fire employees. If conditions are such that an employer has to reduce employee numbers, it must not be big numbers so as not to swell the numbers of the unemployed. Furthermore, those who have been earmarked for retrenchment have to know about their rights and benefits due to them, in terms of the amount payable, before they leave the place of employment, and not be told that they they will be paid only after they have left work.]

Most importantly, these amendments seek to improve the procedures in the event of dismissal. This includes providing probation and introducing a fairer system of compensation in the event of unfair dismissal. In addition, these Bills seek to improve the functioning of the bargaining councils, increasing the effectiveness and efficiency of the CCMA, particularly in relation to their ability to serve small businesses and the vulnerable workers, and bring stability to the Labour Court.

Once these amendments are put into practice organised labour will be able to elect whether they want to go on strike or contest the substantive fairness of a retrenchment through a Labour Court when the conciliation process fails.

In conclusion, as next month has been identified as Human Rights month, the workers of this country have cause to celebrate as workers’ rights are human rights. The two cannot be divorced. Lastly, as we will also be celebrating International Women’s Day next week, we will be celebrating our rights as women and our rights as workers, as these are also human rights. We will be remembering all those women who died fighting for our rights, both as women and as workers. [Applause.]

Dr P J C NEL: Voorsitter, agb Minister, kollegas, dit is vandag vir my ‘n voorreg om aan die bespreking van hierdie twee wetsontwerpe deel te neem, alhoewel wat gesê kan word, omtrent alles reeds gesê is.

Hierdie twee wetsontwerpe kan moeilik afsonderlik gehanteer word, want albei poog om die belange van die werknemer sowel as die werkgewer te beskerm en te bevorder. Die wysigings van die twee wetsontwerpe poog, myns insiens, om die klimaat vir ‘n beter werkverhouding tussen die werkgewer en werknemer te skep. Of die wysigings ten volle daarin sal slaag, bly ‘n ope vraag.

In dié verband haal ek graag ‘n spreuk aan uit die spreuke van C J Langenhoven:

Dit is net so moeilik om maklikheid in die wêreld te kry as wat dit maklik is om moeilikheid te kry.

Indien die wysiging wel gedeeltelik daarin kan slaag om arbeidsvrede en arbeidsvreugde te bewerkstellig, is die poging die moeite werd. Die beeld wat goeie arbeidsverhoudinge in veral ontwikkelende lande uitstraal na die buiteland is van kardinale belang vir die bevordering van buitelandse welwillendheid en investering. Goeie werkverhoudinge bevorder ook die moraal van werknemers en dus ook produktiwiteit in die arbeidsmark, wat lei tot ekonomiese groei en die skep van meer werkgeleenthede.

Daar moet egter by die skryf van arbeidswetgewing ‘n fyn balans gehandhaaf word, anders mag net die teenoorgestelde van wat beoog word deur wetgewing bereik word. In dié verband haal ek graag aan uit ‘n voorlegging wat die Vryemarkstigting aan die portefeuljekomitee gemaak het:

The professed philosophy of protagonists of labour regulation includes the laudable values of sound labour relations, economic growth and fair labour practices. The laws that deal with dismissal are therefore ostensibly designed also to provide a measure of security of employment for employees. The irony is, however, that they sometimes achieve the opposite effect in practice and that the more obstacles the law places in the way of employers who want to dismiss workers, the greater the disincentive it creates for employers to employ workers.

Volgens die CCMA ontstaan ongeveer 80% van alle arbeidsdispute tans as gevolg van ontslag van werknemers. Die grootste aantal die afdankings ontstaan as gevolg van wangedrag en onvermydelike besnoeiingsaksies. Die amendemente maak daarvoor voorsiening dat werkers nou mag staak as hulle ontslaan word vir hierdie genoemde redes. Die wysiging maak ook daarvoor voorsiening dat die werker ‘n keuse kan uitoefen om te staak of om enige dispuut in die hof te beveg.

Verder geld ook dieselfde formaliteite en stappe wat gedoen word voordat oorgegaan kan word tot stakings en uitsluitings as wat tans die geval is vir enige staking. Al die moontlike wetlike implikasies kan moontlik veroorsaak dat die koste verhoog, en dat die tyd wat dit neem om sake op te los, verleng word. Dit alles kan aanleiding gee daartoe dat werkgewers minder mense gaan aanstel.

Klousule 56 van die Wysigingswetsontwerp op Arbeidsverhoudinge beskerm die uitbuiting van ‘n werknemer wat deur ‘n werkgewer vir ‘n proeftyd aangestel word. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)

[Dr P J C NEL: Chairperson, hon Minister, colleagues, it is a privileged for me to participate in this discussion today of these two Bills, although what could be said has just about already been said.

These two Bills could hardly be dealt with separately, because both aim to promote and protect the interests of the employee as well as the employer. In my opinion the amendments of the two Bills aim to create a climate for a better working relationship between employer and employee. Whether the amendments will succeed fully in this remains an open question.

In this regard I would like to quote a verse from the proverbs of C J Langenhoven:

Dit is net so moeilik om maklikheid in die wêreld te kry as wat dit maklik is om moeilikheid te kry.

If the amendment could partly succeed in accomplishing industrial peace and job satisfaction the attempt would be worthwhile. The image which conveys sound labour relations of the developing countries, especially to countries abroad, is of cardinal importance for the promotion of foreign goodwill and investment. Good working relations also promotes the morale of employees and therefore also productivity in the labour market, which leads to economic growth and the creation of more job opportunities.

However, with the writing of labour legislation a fine balance should be maintained, because we might just achieve the opposite of what is envisaged by the legislation. In this regard I would like to quote from a submission by the Free Market Foundation to the portfolio committee:

The professed philosophy of protagonists of labour regulations includes the laudable values of sound labour relations, economic growth and fair labour practices. The laws that deal with dismissal are therefore ostensibly designed also to provide a measure of security of employment for employees. The irony is, however, that they sometimes achieve the opposite effect in practice and that the more obstacles the law places in the way of employers who want to dismiss workers, the greater the disincentive it creates for employers to employ workers.

According to the CCMA, approximately 80% of all labour disputes presently develop as a result of the dismissal of employees. The largest number of dismissals develop as a result of misconduct and unavoidable retrenchments. The amendments make provision for workers to strike if they are dismissed for these aforementioned reasons. The amendment also makes provision for the workers’ right to exercise a choice either to strike or to fight any dispute in the court.

Furthermore, the same formalities and steps, which are taken before proceeding to strike action and lock-outs are still applicable, as is presently the case for any strike. All the possible legal implications could possibly cause a cost increase and extend the time it takes to resolve matters. All of this could cause employers to appoint fewer people.

Clause 56 of the Labour Relations Amendment Bill protects the exploitation of an employee who has been appointed by an employer for a period of probation.]

Clause 56 states clearly that:

(c) Probation should not be used for purposes not contemplated by this Code to deprive employees of the status of permanent employment. For example, a practice of dismissing employees who complete their probation periods and replacing them with newly-hired employees, is not consistent with the purpose of probation and constitutes an unfair labour practice.

Aangesien hierdie soort optrede algemene praktyk is, is dit goed dat genoemde wysiging hierdie probleem aanspreek. Die feit dat die wetsontwerp ook nou die posisie van werkers uitspel van maatskappye of instansies wat besig is om finansieel onder te gaan, is noodsaaklik en ‘n stap in die regte rigting.

Soos ek aan die begin gesê het, dit bly ‘n ope vraag of die twee wetsontwerpe sal slaag in hul doel, en of die teenoorgestelde bereik gaan word in sommige gevalle. Na my mening hang dit grootliks van die optrede van alle werkgewers en werknemers af, en ook die verantwoordelike optrede van vakbonde, of daar in die toekoms meer arbeidsvreugde en arbeidsvrede gaan wees. As dit gebeur, kan dit alleen maar net tot die voordeel van almal wees.

Die Nuwe NP steun albei wetsontwerpe. [Applous.] (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)

[Since this kind of conduct is common practice it is good that the aforementioned amendments are addressing this problem. The fact that the Bill also spells out the position of workers of companies or institutions who are going under financially, is necessary and a step in the right direction.

As I have said at the beginning, it remains an open question whether these two Bills will succeed in their aim, and whether the opposite will be achieved in some instances. In my opinion it depends largely on the action of all employers and employees, and also the responsible action of trade unions, whether in future we will have more industrial peace and greater job satisfaction. If this happens it could only be to the advantage of us all.

The New NP supports both Bills. [Applause.]]

Nksn M P THEMBA: Sekela laSihlalo, Ndvuna lehloniphekile, malunga lahloniphekile, manene nemanenekati, lamuhla siphetsene neMitsetfotivivinyo lebaluleke kakhulu. Lena ngiMitsetfotivivinyo letawucondza ngco ekwenteni umehluko lomkhulu nalobalulekile etimphilweni tebantfu bakitsi, nasetimphilweni tebasebenti bakitsi.

LeMitsetfotivivinyo ikhombisa kutibophelela kwaHulumende ekutseni ahlangabetane netidzingo kanye netikhalo tebasebenti bakitsi. Ngubona bantfu labalwa iminyaka ngeminyaka balwela inkhululeko yalelive nekutsi basebenti babe nemalungelo ekuphatseka kahle emisebentini yabo. (Translation of Siswati paragraphs follows.)

[Ms M P THEMBA: Deputy Chairperson, hon Minister, hon members, ladies and gentlemen, today we are addressing very important Bills. These are Bills that will have a very direct, positive and important impact on the lives of our people and the lives of our workers.

The Bills reflect the commitment of our Government to the needs and concerns of our workers who for decades fought for the liberation of this country, and that the workers could have the right to fair labour practice.]

The negotiations on these amendments have been completed with a significant contribution by organised labour and business by working together with Government. The fact that substantive agreement was reached demonstrates the value of the social partnership between these stakeholders. It further demonstrates the commitment of South Africans working side by side as a unit and rainbow nation for the betterment of our economy. It reflects the ANC’s commitment to transparency and for the people to be able to be part of the legislation process so that their views and comments can be heard to influence the whole legislative process.

The importance of the role and functioning of bargaining councils in our country cannot be stressed enough. They are the crucial part of the collective bargaining arrangement. Therefore there has been a need to strengthen their functioning so that they serve employer and employee parties better through improving their efficiency, the information required on their service in relation to small business, regulatory oversight and expansion of the scope of their functions to include the provision of services to industries and their coverage of the informal sector.

The amendment with regard to the role and functioning of bargaining council is imperative. To limit the abuse of the CCMA, often by relatively few individuals and organisations who delay proceedings and mislead workers and employers, the Minister has been given the power to make regulations, after consulting Nedlac and the CCMA to determine matters such as the representation of parties and the charging of fees by the CCMA.

To be more sensitive to the imperatives of job creation, small business development and the application of the Act in respect of enforcement, these amendments will enable the Minister, through ministerial or sectoral determination, to increase the ordinary hours of work above 45, if the resultant working time arrangements are more favourable, either where there is a collective agreement or where this is necessitated by the operational circumstances of the sector or in respect of the agricultural or private security sector.

The amendment of the Labour Relations Act seeks to give bargaining councils the capacity to improve on their enforcement procedures and provide a substantive statutory basis for arbitrations. This means, for example, that arbitrators have considerably more powers, even to the extent that they may now impose fines. But, more importantly, arbitrators’ decisions in case of unfair dismissal and unfair labour practices, according to clause 47 of the Bill, will be considered final and binding, subject only to review by the Labour Court. These arbitration decisions can also be terminated before referral to the Labour Court, but only with the written consent of both parties.

The CCMA is also elevated from the perceived status of being a mere paper tiger. According to both the Basic Conditions of Employment Amendment Bill and the Labour Relations Amendment Bill, the CCMA’s powers have increased so that CCMA awards have the same status as orders of a civil court. This means, for example, that if the outcome of a case results in an award of payment to the offended party, that party will now be able to issue a warrant of execution through the deputy sheriff to ensure that the award is enforced without contributing to any further hardship to the offended party.

Indeed, these amendments show the level of the commitment of Government to making our country attractive to investors so that more jobs can be created for our people, to enable them to afford decent standards of living. They will then be able to support their families and educate their children, so that those children one day become responsible leaders and entrepreneurs creating more jobs, and so that their children will not be forced, because of poverty, unemployment and poor schooling, to be exploited as child labourers.

Child labour is one area that raises a point of concern in our country. It is an area in which we need to work as a nation to combat and discourage the problem. It is not about ngumntfwanami'' [it is my child]. It is a problem that affects our children as a nation andnjengabomake futsi’’ [mothers too]. It is a problem that will destroy the future of our country, our children, and thus make what we are trying to amend today for the betterment of our country a nonissue, and a thing of the past. Let us not make excuses for child labour, for it cannot be justified. Ekugcineni, ngicela kutsi, njengobe sonkhe sitawuhamba siye emakhaya, kumaprovinsi etfu, kuloLusuku lolutaba khona lwaboMake sihlanganise tinhloko siyekwenta umsebenti wekusekela bomake kuto tonkhe tinkinga labanato. [Tandla.] (Translation of Siswati paragraph follows.)

[In conclusion, I plead with all of us, as we are going back to our constituencies and provinces, to get together on the approaching Women’s Day, to meet and support the women with regard to any problems they might have. [Applause.]]

The MINISTER OF LABOUR: Chairperson, I must indicate that I am very happy. Hon members have made my day. Firstly, the hon members have read the two Bills. The level of understanding has impressed me to an extent that, as a teacher and former principal, I give hon members 10 out of 10 for understanding the Bill. [Interjections.] [Applause.] It is very important.

I have noted most of their comments, because they are valuable comments. Because we are together in Government, and this is our legislation, all of us have to make sure that we understand the dynamics of the labour market.

I would also like to thank those hon members who have used our vernacular for doing so.

Ndingomnye wabafundi besiXhosa. Andiyithandi le nto yenzekayo yokunyhashwa kweelwimi zethu ePalamente. Ukuba siyayivumela, siya kufana nabantu abalwela ilize. Ngoko ke masingayivumeli. Umntu makathi xa ethetha kule Ndlu, athabathe nokuba yimizuzwana embalwa esebenzisa ulwimi lwakhe, kuba ngokwenjenjalo wenza igalelo ekuvulweni kwamathuba emisebenzi, ngoba kukho umntu oza kuhlala phaya, atolike, alale etyile. Xa amalungu ahloniphekileyo engazithethi iilwimi zawo, aba bantu baphetheyo, bequka noMhlalingaphambili, lo abasayi kuyenza into esiyifunayo, de sizisebenzise iilwimi zethu.

Mna ke ndayeka ukunika le nto kuthiwa sisaziso. Andinasaziso ndisinikayo mna kuba kwamhla ndazalwa akuzange kubethwe zintsimbi. Andingazange ndizalelwe esibhedlele, ndingazange ndidle nembe. Ngoko ke andingekhe ndize kudliswa inembe epalamente ngoku sendimdala, ndilixhego. [Kwahlekwa.] Andinakuyivumela loo nto.

Kwakungekuhle mhla ndayipapasha le Mithetho isaYilwayo. Kwakubonakala ukuba kuza kuqhawuka unobathana. Kambe ngenxa yothetha-thethwano nangenxa yengxoxo, sonke ngoku, abasebenzi kunye nabaqeshi, izifuba zihuba-huba yimigcobo nemivuyo ngenxa yempumelelo yethu ekuhliseni imisindo neengcwangu. Kwaye yonke loo nto yenziwe kukuba sivumile ukuba kubekho uthetha-thethwano, sixoxe ngayo le Mithetho isaYilwayo. (Translation of Xhosa paragraphs follows.)

[I am one of the scholars of isiXhosa. I do not like the tendency of suppressing other languages that often occurs here in Parliament. If we allow it, we will be defeating the purpose for which we struggled in this country. We should not allow it to happen. When one addresses this House, she or he must use her or his mother tongue, even if for a few moments, because by so doing one would be contributing towards job creation, as somebody would be sitting there to interpret, and would thereby be able to put food on her or his table. If the hon members do not speak their languages, the people who are in control, including the Chairperson, will never do what we want until we use our mother tongues.

I stopped giving a notice when I am going to speak my mother tongue, because even when I was born no bells were rung. I was not born at a hospital nor was I fed gruel. Therefore, I cannot be fed gruel at Parliament when I am this old, an old man. [Laughter.] I cannot allow that.

It was not pleasant when I introduced these Bills. The process did not go down well. However, through negotiation, all of us, the employees as well as employers, feel relieved and are very happy for our success in calming people’s anger and frustration. All of that became successful because we allowed a period of negotiation about these Bills.]

The hon member Lever has raised a very fundamental point, but unfortunately it is clear to me that he merely read his speech. I understand that, hon member. Some of the issues he has raised are probably issues he has raised because he had been asked to do so. I know when one is a junior member in any party one just has to take instructions and come up and read. [Laughter.] I understand that, but one of the issues that he has raised relates to … [Interjections.] Well, I am a member of the national disciplinary committee of the ANC, so I understand we give instructions sometimes. [Interjections.] Yes, we were quite difficult.

But the hon member has raised a fundamental issue in relation to job creation. One of the reasons that we have taken this step, and even managed to persuade and convince unions in this regard, is precisely that we are concerned about this matter. However, in our own discussions with investors it is clear that one of the fundamental issues that we have to address in this country is the lack of skill, and unfortunately our people lack education.

Hon members must understand that the system of apartheid was in force for some time. The majority of the people who lack skills happen to be African women in the rural areas. There is a big chunk of them, the youth, from 15 years to 30 years old. We are producing a lot of matriculants, about 300 000 of them per annum, and they end up nowhere. Only about 11% of them manage to go to university. The rest loiter about the streets.

So the hon member raised a fundamental point. That is precisely why we have the Skills Development Act and the Skills Development Levies Act, so that we can insist that companies must train people. Now we have also introduced learnerships so that most of these matriculants who are loitering about our streets are taken on board in the various workplaces. That is why I am very angry with those employers who are only paying and not claiming the levy to train our people. Whether people like it or not, we are going to force companies to train people. This is one of the things that we are going to do this year. So watch this space! This is the year 2002.

I may start by inspecting this Parliament, because I have noticed that some of the fire extinguishers here have long expired. What will happen if there is a fire in here? I respect hon members. They also have rights, even if they are not covered by the Labour Relations Act and the Basic Conditions of Employment Act. [Laughter.]

However, let me thank hon members. I would like to thank the hon Fenyane. I know to be a chairperson is a very difficult position, but I would like to thank him for his support, and also counselling, because sometimes I come to him frustrated and I insult him and ask him when this or that will be happening, but his approach and his response is as if he is really a priest. So I am sure that very soon we are going to have another umfundisi, or priest.

I thank all hon members, and I am very serious, for supporting us, because this is history. Let me conclude by just saying that before a deal was clinched on labour law amendments, I stunned journalists when I announced very excitedly, typical of me sometimes, that a miracle was about to happen. Most of them laughed when I said that. What did hon members see today? They saw another miracle, because all the political parties support the labour law amendments. This is a miracle. I hope the journalists are listening, wherever they are.

Here comes another miracle. I said there would be a miracle. It is a miracle that trade unions, together with employers, agreed, albeit not accepting everything, but there is a little bit for each and every person, including hon members here. Each one said: ``I support, but …’’ But there is something for everyone to take home in these labour law amendments. [Laughter.]

I think we must all say hallelujah to ourselves. [Applause.] The reason why journalists were flabbergasted was that they knew that labour market policies were contested terrain. They were also aware of threats exchanged between organised business and labour. Many people thought that we were mad, and that the department was caught between a rock and a hard place. Next time, when this lay preacher warns about miracles, hon members must please listen, because I also get my strength from somewhere. So they must please listen when I say there is going to be a miracle.

I hope that sceptics and all those who sometimes have the tendency of not being convinced, and who have all these arguments about the inflexibility of our labour market, will go out there now and say that the major problem in our own economy is a shortage of skills in this country and that all of us together must move along to make sure that there are skills. We have a human resource development strategy in the country, and all of us must encourage different employers to accept that indeed we have this strategy.

We trust that today heralds a momentous epoch in our history when we, once and for all, bury some of these arguments about the inflexibility of our labour market.

Let us now exhaust our collective energies in embarking on a skills revolution, as I have indicated. Of course, it is a very ambitious programme, but I have said there is no revolution that is not ambitious. If all of us are revolutionaries, we must be ambitious. [Applause.]

Debate concluded.

Basic Conditions of Employment Amendment Bill, subject to proposed amendments, agreed to in accordance with section 75 of the Constitution.

Labour Relations Amendment Bill, subject to proposed amendments, agreed to in accordance with section 75 of the Constitution.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr M L Mushwana): Order! I take this opportunity to thank the hon the Minister for engaging this House in a lively debate.

RETIREMENT FROM PARLIAMENTARY SERVICE OF MR C J P LUCAS, GENERAL MANAGER, AND ADV A M MEYER, CHIEF LAW ADVISER

                             (Statement)

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr M L Mushwana): Order! We are now going to bid farewell to two of our most senior parliamentary officials. I do believe they are present here - I see the Secretary has joined us.

I will therefore allow political parties an opportunity to make farewell speeches in honour of Mr C J P Lucas, the General Manager of Parliament, who has been with this Parliament for many years and is now going on retirement. The Chief Law Adviser of Parliament, Adv A M Meyer, is also going on retirement. I take it they are present in the House.

What is important is what we will say. I accordingly call upon the Acting Chief Whip of the National Council of Provinces to be the first member to pass a vote of thanks to these two stalwarts.

Mr M A SULLIMAN: Chairperson, Mr Lucas started his service to Parliament on 13 January 1969 as a junior committee clerk. He then later became a translator and after that a senior translator. He was also, at one stage, a Senior Undersecretary to this Parliament for a considerable period of time. He is now retiring as the General Manager of Parliament. He has held this position since 1994.

I think the words ``general manager’’ say a lot about Mr Lucas, because one could ask him anything about what was going on in Parliament and he would give one advice and information.

Mr Lucas, in your absence, we from the ANC are going to miss you. We wish you a good retirement. May God bless you. I hope you will have enough time to spend with your family.

Adv Anton Meyer, who has also served this Parliament for a number of years, has been involved in quite a number of activities during his lifetime. In 1993 he was involved in the multiparty negotiations at Kempton Park. He assisted with the drafting of transitional legislation, in particular with the Transitional Executive Council Act, and with aspects of the interim Constitution.

Adv Meyer’s duties have also included, at times, giving some legal advice to presiding officers, to committees and to the Secretary to Parliament. In addition, he has played a key role in the preparation of the Constitution of the SADC Parliamentary Forum. I am only highlighting a few activities. The list is very long.

To you, Mr Meyer, and to your wife and family, we wish you a happy retirement and may God bless you for many more years to come. [Applause.]

Mr P A MATTHEE: Chairperson, it is a privilege to say a few words about two great leaders of this Parliament. Both Chris Lucas and Anton Meyer have, over many years, made an enormous contribution to the effective functioning of Parliament. They have played a major role in the establishment of our new, present, fully democratic Parliament and, therefore, our whole democratic dispensation, which today stands out as an example not only on our continent but in the whole world.

Alhoewel ons hulle vandag groet, sal die diep spore wat hulle getrap het met soveel toewyding en bekwaamheid, vir baie lank steeds hier wees om as ‘n rigsnoer te dien vir almal van ons en diegene wat hulle sal opvolg. [Although we bid them farewell today, the mark they have made with so much dedication and ability will still be here for a very long time to serve as an example to all of us and to those who will be following in their footsteps.]

Mr Lucas has 33 years of service to Parliament. Many of us, including me, were still at school when he started working here. As we all know, Mr Lucas is an expert on the functioning of a parliamentary democracy and has, at all times, but especially also after 1994, used his knowledge and expertise with passion to make a success of the new Parliament and all its functions.

Baie dankie vir die vriendelike wyse waarop hy altyd bereid was om sy kennis met ons almal te deel en ons almal so bekwaam van raad bedien het. [We want to thank him sincerely for the friendly way in which he was always prepared to share his knowledge with all of us and the way in which he advised us all so competently.]

Anton Meyer has been in the Public Service for even longer - for 40 years. He has served as a public prosecutor, a magistrate, a lecturer at the Justice College, a state legal adviser and, since 1994, as the Chief Law Adviser of Parliament. During 1975 I had the privilege of being one of his students on a public prosecutor’s course at the Justice College in Pretoria.

Adv Meyer also served as a legal adviser during the transition of the then South West Africa to Namibia and also during those elections. He also played a major role during the negotiations for our new Constitution. He also served as Deputy Chief State Law Adviser.

Hy is ‘n kenner van die opstel van wetgewing, en het daarom ook ‘n groot rol gespeel in die opstel van die finale Grondwet en die opstel van die Reëls van die Parlement.

Ons sal hom onthou as ‘n uiters bekwame regsgeleerde wat altyd op ‘n vriendelike en baie bekwame wyse beskikbaar en toeganklik was. Hy was ‘n persoon op wie se regsvaardighede en regskennis ‘n mens kon reken. As Anton Meyer vir ‘n mens regsadvies gegee het, dan het jy geweet jy kan daarop reken. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraph follows.)

[He is an expert in the drafting of legislation, and for this reason he also played a major role in the drafting of the final Constitution and the drafting of the Rules of Parliament.

We shall remember him as an extremely competent lawyer who was always available and approachable in a friendly and very competent way. He was someone on whose legal abilities and legal knowledge one could rely. When Anton Meyer gave one legal advice, one knew one could rely on it.]

We greet both these, as I have said, leaders. They were not leaders in the political sense who made big speeches, but they played a major role in bringing our new dispensation and democracy to where they are today. We salute them and wish them and their families everything of the best. And we are sure that they will still play a major role in the future of our country. We hope that their expertise and knowledge will still be accessible to all of us. [Applause.]

Mr L G LEVER: Chairperson, we bid farewell to and thank two very senior servants of Parliament and the people. I have not had personal dealings with Mr Lucas, but I am assured by all those people I spoke to who have had personal dealings with him that he deserves our appreciation. I have recently come to appreciate Mr Meyer’s abilities and skills since serving on the Committee on the Powers and Privileges of Parliament.

I believe both men have served this Parliament and the people of the country in an exemplary fashion, and we in the DP, together with every member in this House, wish both of these gentlemen every blessing for the future. [Applause.]

Mr M J BHENGU: Chairperson, there is a saying that goes: ``We meet to part and part to meet.’’ I would imagine that it is time for us to part with these honourable gentlemen.

I have been the Deputy Chief Whip of the IFP for the last term, and I remember that I interacted a lot with the two gentlemen. I know that they have a wealth of experience. What was striking was that they were prepared to share their experience with whoever came to them. They were prepared to listen and help. Indeed, as the previous speakers put it so eloquently, they actually helped a lot in nurturing our new democracy.

As the IFP, we say that we are very grateful for what they have contributed in the development of our new Parliament and that they shared their experience and knowledge with us. Therefore, we wish them all the best wherever they. Nihambe kahle! [Go well.] Niphumule kahle futhe! [Rest well.] [Applause.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr M L Mushwana): Order! Hon members, we will just have a few words from the presiding officers in the NCOP.

As presiding officers, we say that Mr Lucas will be missed by Parliament for reasons that are too many to count. Those that stand out clearly are the following: Mr Lucas has such an immense appetite and capacity for coffee, if you did not know … [Laughter] … everyone is wondering which coffee shop is going to be so fortunate as to be patronised by the retired Mr Lucas as its customer.

He has such an amazing capacity for deep and clear reflection on matters of strategic importance. We recall that, during many of our meetings when we were asking Mr Lucas very difficult and probing questions, he would sit back in reflection and listen carefully and quietly to all queries and he would later on come forward with such a thoughtful answer which clarified some of the many difficult questions.

As you will remember, when we first came to this Parliament, we were all new. We did not know what was in this big institution, but Mr Lucas was one of those hardworking officials who assisted us in going through our work in Parliament. Mr Lucas has the ability to distinguish central issues from general items and to support processes by identifying and dealing with important policy issues. Not only did he deal with important policy issues, but he also assisted us in the formulation of new policies to replace those apartheid policies which were then the order of this Parliament. He was such a hard, astute and committed worker with a real commitment to South Africa’s democratic Parliament.

It is a pity that we had to miss him at such an early stage. As you will remember, Mr Lucas actually resigned a year or two ago. And, when Parliament realised the role that he was playing here, it requested him to defer his retirement. Mr Lucas was kind enough to agree and spent yet another period of time assisting the Secretary in transforming this democratic institution. He will definitely be sorely missed, and I hope he will not disappear because we will always approach him for more advice.

Just as we came to Parliament in 1994, when we actually did not know what we were going to do in this Parliament, the state law adviser who was at this Parliament then left us, hardly three months after the 1994 elections. Mr Meyer came at that particular time to assist and guide us. The Acting Chief Whip has already indicated that Mr Meyer was involved in Kempton Park during the constitutional negotiations which brought about democracy in South Africa, which was indeed a realisation of a dream long cherished by those selfless combatants and compatriots who put their country and the people before their lives. He was there in Kempton Park to make this dream a reality.

When Mr Meyer further finally joined Parliament as its Chief Law Adviser, we were all new in this Parliament. It was indeed an interesting scenario, because we had people from Robben Island, from the UDF, from exile, from the apartheid era and from the homelands mixed together in this institution and we did not know how to move forward. We actually did not know the daunting task which lay ahead of us.

When we came to this new institution, where all the apartheid laws were enforced, and we had to enact new legislation to replace all the apartheid laws, Mr Meyer was there to lend us a hand. Hardly any legislation went through this Parliament without passing under the stern eye of Mr Meyer. He scrutinised a lot of legislation.

Hon members will remember that during 1994 and 1995 in particular, a big volume of legislation was promulgated, which was intended to repeal the apartheid laws. I am still asking myself how Mr Meyer managed to cope with that.

Mr Meyer has been a tower of support to both Presiding Officers, committees and the administration of Parliament. Although he had received a copy of his job description, we are not so sure that he ever found time to study his job description or his job profile, as we call it today.

Mr Meyer’s advice was also instrumental in the formation of SADC. His demeanour made the people he was advising in the SADC very comfortable, so that they trusted his advice and relied on his opinion despite the fact that they came from the various Southern African developing countries. We just hope that these are not the very same people who are poaching him away from Parliament.

We also recognise the willingness on the part of Mr Meyer to help us and lead us on many occasions. He advised us in regard to law and administration, and we are glad to have had such a man. His opinion and advice have undoubtedly contributed considerably towards shaping Parliament and the parliamentary law of South Africa. It is a real pity that those who work hard enough and make a difference are destined to take their rest. But I must say to Mr Meyer that we are not sure that he is retiring, because he does not look tired. What I suggest we do is to give him a 24-hour cellphone so that we can reach him for 24 hours a day.

Finally, allow me to say to Mr Meyer, and perhaps to Mr Lucas, that when South Africa was approaching election time in 1994, some pessimists and some counter-revolutionaries pressed the panic button that after the election South Africa was going to be violence-ridden. Some began to stockpile food or emigrated, and others resigned from the Public Service, even after the elections. We appreciate the fact that Mr Meyer and Mr Lucas did not resign. They stayed on and helped us to fortify and concretise this democracy. We will remember their good work with pride, and remember them as patriots. And I say: Go well! Mooiloop! Hambani kahle! Hambani kakuhle! Tsamayang gabotse! Tsela tshweu! Kha va chimbile swa vudi! Fambani kahle! Hambani kahle, ngesiNdebele.

In all, we all wish them well, and a good rest. With those few words, I conclude the business of this House. [Applause.]

The Council adjourned at 15:45. ____

            ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS

                     WEDNESDAY, 27 FEBRUARY 2002

TABLINGS:

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces:

Papers:

1. The Speaker and the Chairperson:

 Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements of the Office
 of the Public Protector for 1999-2000 [RP 09-2002].

                     THURSDAY, 28 FEBRUARY 2002

ANNOUNCEMENTS:

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces:

1. The Speaker and the Chairperson:

 (1)    The following Bill was introduced by the Minister of Transport
     in the National Assembly on 28 February 2002 and referred to the
     Joint Tagging Mechanism (JTM) for classification in terms of Joint
     Rule 160:


     (i)     National Railway Safety Regulator Bill [B 7 - 2002]
          (National Assembly - sec 76) [Explanatory summary of Bill and
          prior notice of its introduction published in Government
          Gazette No 23100 of 6 February 2002.]


     The Bill has been referred to the Portfolio Committee on Transport
     of the National Assembly.


     In terms of Joint Rule 154 written views on the classification of
     the Bill may be submitted to the Joint Tagging Mechanism (JTM)
     within three parliamentary working days.

National Council of Provinces:

1. The Chairperson:

 (1)    Message from National Assembly to National Council of Provinces:


      Bill, as amended, passed by National Assembly on 28 February 2002
      and transmitted for consideration of Assembly's amendments:
     (i)     Animal Health Bill [B 64D - 2001] (National Council of
          Provinces - sec 76).


     The amended Bill has been referred to the Select Committee on Land
     and Environmental Affairs for a report and recommendations on the
     Assembly's amendments.


 (2)    Message from National Assembly to National Council of Provinces:


     Bill passed by National Assembly on 28 February 2002 and
     transmitted for concurrence:


     (i)     Division of Revenue Bill [B 5B - 2002] (National Assembly
          - sec 76).


     The Bill has been referred to the Select Committee on Finance of
     the National Council of Provinces.