FRIDAY, 21 JUNE 2002 __

          PROCEEDINGS OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
                                ____

The Council met at 09:24.

The Chairperson took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayers or meditation.

ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS - see col 000.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Order! I note that the responsible executive member is not in the House.

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE COUNCIL: Chairperson, we are bringing it to the attention of the Minister that we are commencing. [Interjections.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Order! We will suspend business to allow Mr Surty to get the Minister into the House, but I believe this is really quite astounding. This is my first experience of this.

Ms Dlulane, could you call the Minister in … and Mr Ackermann? [Laughter.] This is the new relationship between the New NP and the ANC! [Laughter.]

Business suspended at 09:25 and resumed at 09:26.

                         APPROPRIATION BILL

                           (Policy debate)

Vote No 18 - Social Development:

The MINISTER OF SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT: Chairperson, hon members, MECs of social development, distinguished guests, ladies and gentlemen, in my Budget Vote speech to the National Assembly in March this year I pledged to proceed with the delivery of social development programmes and grants to the millions of poor citizens of South Africa. I also indicated that owing to their particular needs and vulnerabilities, the children of our country would be the focus of our efforts. The primary theme of our work in Social Development this year has been and continues to be ``children first’’.

In motivating this focus on children one does not need to look far to realise the critical importance of providing care and support for children in South Africa. About two out of every five South Africans are children aged younger than 18 years. Of these, almost half are poor in material terms.

On 27 May the official launch of the week in Pretoria was attended by children from several schools and children’s shelters situated in and around the city. The children were given the opportunity to ask questions, and I was saddened to hear about the issues that concerned them. The children voiced their concerns about sexual abuse, poverty, hunger, family disintegration and their distrust of adults.

For as long as this situation exists we are obliged to double our efforts to alleviate and, ultimately, to eliminate this extreme level of material and social deprivation. We need to give children real hope for a better life today, and not vague ideas of a better life some time in the future. It is this urgency to address the plight of children that drives our Social Development programmes.

I am pleased to announce that as of this week a total of 2 103 875 children are receiving one of the three types of social grants for children. The majority of children, that is about 1,9 million, are receiving the child support grant.

I am, however, deeply concerned that many children who are eligible for these grants are not receiving them. The reasons for this could be that their parents or guardians do not know about the grants or, if they do, are not aware of the procedures required to access them.

We are therefore embarking on a national campaign to register all those who are eligible for social grants, and in the first year of the campaign we are focusing our efforts on children. We aim to reach another million children by the end of this financial year, and we have called on our partners in various sectors of civil society to support this campaign. We are asking members of this House to be part and parcel of that campaign.

The impact of HIV on our children is devastating. In many instances the children of families affected by the pandemic are unable to attend classes because they are obliged to take care of their parents and to take on other roles that their parents can no longer fulfil. The finances of households are affected and their purchasing power is invariably decimated. The nutritional levels of children thus decrease and their physical and emotional health deteriorates.

Sadly, there are reports of communities that shun and marginalise families affected by the disease. Such reactions are based on irrational fears and misconceptions, and, as a nation, we need to counteract these. This year we will expand our youth development initiatives, which we commenced under the urban renewal programme. I remain concerned about the number of children and youth awaiting trial in police cells and in adult correctional services institutions. It is therefore essential that we expand the diversion programmes as envisaged under the Probation Services Amendment Bill and also expand secure care services and facilities.

As hon members are aware, the Committee of Inquiry into Comprehensive Social Security submitted its report to Cabinet in April this year. The report has been distributed for public comment and we are now in the process of reviewing the inputs received. The recommendations contained in the report have far-reaching implications for the country and Government. We will therefore be deliberating very thoroughly on the issues raised.

It is, however, imperative that we continue to improve the current system so that we meet the needs of those who are eligible for social security. In addition to the national registration campaign, we will progressively implement norms and standards for social security, streamline procedures and develop the skills of social security officials.

Provinces have begun to establish assessment panels to expedite the processing of disability grant applications. This will alleviate the misery experienced by many applicants, especially those living in rural areas with no access to district surgeons.

Earlier this year, Government set aside R2 billion to pay grant beneficiaries who had been disadvantaged by the three-month limitation on the accrual of arrears. The provincial departments of social development have begun with arrears payments for child support grants. This will be followed by other grant types during the coming months. Government’s decision was based on our belief that beneficiaries should not be penalised for the shortcomings in the legislation and administration of our social security system. Every beneficiary who is entitled to the arrears payment will receive payment.

Many of the improvements made in the area of social security respond to the recommendation made by the Ministerial Committee on the Abuse, Neglect and Ill-treatment of Older Persons. This year, we will expedite the implementation of outstanding matters raised by the committee as well as develop a national action plan on ageing and keeping with the declaration made in the Second World Assembly on Ageing, which was held in Spain in April this year.

Our poverty relief programmes will place increasing emphasis on building and strengthening community structures to ensure the sustainability of poverty relief initiatives. This will require us to work collaboratively with other departments as well as local government in the manner envisaged by the Integrated Sustainable Rural Development Programme.

The National Development Agency, NDA, was transferred to my Ministry late last year and is expected to play a critical role in supporting civil society organisations in the fight against poverty. We established 365 projects last year and have already established 52 this year. In the current financial year, the poverty relief allocation has doubled to R100 million.

We will continue with our efforts to support the social and economic empowerment of women. The Women’s Flagship Programme is gaining momentum and is showing signs of sustainability. The programme has been rolled out in all provinces and there are 22 projects. To complement the flagship programme, 104 women’s income generation projects have also been established to benefit 10 400 households.

The Victim Empowerment Programme provides support to women victims of domestic violence and the department works closely with the Department of Justice and Constitutional Development and the SA Police Service on all forms of violence against women.

The theme of partnership is an important one in many areas of our service delivery. In achieving the objectives of the ambitious programmes of the department, we count on the support of many civil society partners.

I take this opportunity to thank the business sector and the numerous faith- based and nongovernmental organisations that have responded to our call for support. Their efforts and generosity are making a difference to the lives of many of our people.

I know that there are many ordinary citizens right across this country who share our concern about the plight of poor people and children. Many of these people work tirelessly and often on a voluntary basis, and I am most appreciative of their commitment. There is still much more to be done and I appeal to others to join hands with us to become part of the solution to the challenges we face.

I would like to remind all organisations that receive funding from Government that they must comply with the requirements for accounting and reporting on the funds that they receive from Government. These accountability requirements apply equally to large nongovernmental organisations and to small community-based organisations. They have a legal and moral responsibility to spend taxpayers’ money on the programmes for which they receive the funding. The national and provincial departments make extensive use of consultants, and I am concerned that the quality of work delivered does not represent value for money for Government. I also appeal to service providers to observe the principles of Batho Pele, especially in the payment of social grants to the elderly.

The department’s allocation increased from R190 million in the year 2001-02 to R409 million in the current financial year. Most of the increase in the allocation is for transfer payments to benefit communities in the poverty relief programme and in the home-based and community-based care programmes, and to fund the projects of the National Development Agency. Funding has also been allocated to improve the social security system and to strengthen the capacity of the department.

The provinces have received an increased allocation this year from R23,9 billion to R28 billion. The allocation for social grants is R25,2 billion, and the grant increases took effect on 1 April this year. This increased budget, together with the substantial allocation for social grants, reflects the Government’s commitment to the poorest sector of our society with - once again I repeat - the emphasis on children.

In conclusion, I would like to thank my colleagues, the members of the executive committees in the provinces, for their sterling efforts in implementing this very challenging programme of social development. I also wish to thank the members of the select committee of the NCOP for their continuous guidance on important policy and legislative matters.

The children of South Africa have hopes and dreams. They want to have enough to eat, they want to go to school and they want to live in a safe and caring environment. They ask for nothing more than their basic human rights. We have a moral and legal duty to ensure that our children enjoy their human rights and live to become good citizens. We must work together to make South Africa a place for children. Children’s rights are also human rights. [Applause.]

Ms L JACOBUS: Chairperson, hon Minister, MECs present - I see quite a few - representatives from various provinces and members, this debate, just opened by the hon the Minister, takes place, significantly, in the month of June. I say ``significantly’’ because on 1 June we celebrated International Children’s Day, the day on which the world recommits itself to fulfilling the rights of every child as enshrined in the Children’s Charter and adopted by most, if not all, countries across the globe.

Secondly, it is also the month in which we celebrate the youth of this of this country and enter into dialogue with them on how best to socially, economically and politically enable them to become the respected and responsible adults of tomorrow. The theme for this debate is, once more, ``Pushing back the frontiers of poverty’’, with the specific focus on child poverty.

Section 28(1) of the Constitution deals with the fundamental rights of children. Unlike other socioeconomic rights, which are subject to progressive realisation by the state with its available resources, the rights pertaining to children do not have any such limitations. The special vulnerability of children and their protection is, in this way, recognised. This section grants children the following core rights: firstly, the right to family or parental care or alternative care when removed from their family environment; secondly, the right to basic nutrition, shelter, health care and social services; and thirdly, the right to be protected against maltreatment, neglect, abuse or degradation.

According to the studies done by Acess, the Alliance for Children’s Entitlement to Social Security, an estimated amount of 10,5 million children live in adverse conditions of poverty; one in every four children have stunted growth due to a nutritional disorder; and Limpopo, the Eastern Cape, Mpumalanga and KwaZulu-Natal have amongst the highest rates of poverty.

On Monday, the Minister opened an international conference on youth or children in conflict with the law, which was held in Port Elizabeth. In his address to the conference, he stated that there were currently 1 789 children under the age of 18 serving prison sentences in South African jails, and a further 2 322 were being held at places of safety and secure care. Out of this total of more than 4 000 children, 40% are being held for economic crimes such as theft. It is indeed sad that children have to resort to crime to feed themselves and to generally just survive. One of the measures put in place by the department to address child poverty and to broaden access to social security was the child support grant, which the Minister mentioned.

A provincial breakdown of children accessing the child support grant, as of May 2002 is as follows: the Eastern Cape, 149 953; the Free State, 105 309; Gauteng, 204 705; KwaZulu-Natal, 495 055; Limpopo, 300 392; Mpumalanga, 131 586; the Northern Cape, 34 756; the North West, 164 043; and the Western Cape, 149 953. This gives us a total of about 1,8 million, but it might be slightly more at this point in time.

Unfortunately, we cannot furnish this House with statistics of the number of eligible children qualifying for this grant currently, but we do know that a large portion of eligible children, for various reasons, are not able to access this grant. The Minister also touched on some the possible reasons why this is not happening. The take-up rate seems to be higher in the better-resourced provinces and lower in provinces with high poverty levels. In the Eastern Cape and Limpopo, one in every five eligible children access the child support grant, whereas in the Western Cape and Gauteng, for every three children targeted two are receiving the child support grant.

One of the most common reasons given for this discrepancy is the existence of an administrative problem - namely, that most children who do qualify for the child support grant do not have the necessary documentation, like birth certificates, or their parents do not have IDs. In this regard, we want to recommend that the hon the Minister initiate discussions with his Home Affairs counterpart to facilitate the speedy processing of identification documents and the introduction of mobile units to cater for the far-flung rural areas in our country like the Eastern Cape, Limpopo, Mpumalanga and KwaZulu-Natal.

Despite these constraints, we also want to commend the department for embarking on a national campaign to register all eligible social security beneficiaries and the payment of arrears accrued to them, the replacement of the Socpen system, the introduction of a training programme for social security officials, the implementation of norms and standards, the implementation of a programme of monitoring and auditing and the possible introduction of legislation emerging from the committee of inquiry’s report which the Minister has referred to. This, we feel, will go a long way in alleviating the plight of our children living in poverty-stricken homes, in informal settlements and on the streets.

When we look at social security for children, it is not just the sole responsibility of the Department of Social Development, but rather an intersectoral responsibility of a number of Government departments. Comprehensive social security for children comprises a package of services and benefits. For example, access to health care, education, nutrition, water, sanitation, housing, etc. It must also provide for the special needs arising from chronic health conditions in a compromised home situation to ensure survival and a standard of living adequate for their development.

We therefore want to recommend that when policy and legislation around comprehensive social security are looked at, the inputs from all these departments and recommendations from the committee of inquiry, as well as the recommendations from the report of Acess and the child participation process, are incorporated.

No debate would be complete without a reference to HIV and Aids and the impact they have on our children. Children on a daily basis are being orphaned by Aids and are expected to head households for their minor siblings. We are encouraged to note that additional funding has been set aside to alleviate the plight of those affected by this scourge.

For the financial year 2002-03 the department has allocated a total amount of R46,5 million to expand the home-based and community-based care programme, including the support of sites identified in rapid appraisal, the improvement of information on children and families affected, and the expansion of training programmes to include faith-based organisations, NGOs and CBOs.

The biggest allocation goes to provinces reported as having the highest prevalence rate, namely, KwaZulu-Natal, Mpumalanga and Gauteng. We want to commend the department for the allocation of money according to priorities and needs, especially since the number of vulnerable children will increase dramatically because of HIV and Aids.

In conclusion I would like to thank the Minister, his departmental officials, led by the director-general - some of them are in the public gallery up there - and his parliamentary liaison officer for their unwavering assistance and support, especially around this time of the year, when we review and debate our policy directions.

I hope that all the comments and contributions that follow will be taken in the spirit that they are meant to create a better life for all our people, especially for the future builders and leaders of this country, our children. A special word of thanks also goes to the thousands of foot soldiers in the employ of the department, based in our offices and communities around the country, who are committed to quality service delivery to the poor and most vulnerable.

I submit and propose to the House, on behalf of the select committee, the adoption of Budget Vote 18 for 2002-03. [Applause.]

Mr F ADAMS: Hon Chairperson, hon Minister, hon MECs and hon members, let me start by congratulating the national leader of the New NP Marthinus van Schalkwyk, on his election as Premier of the Western Cape today. [Applause.]

Recent statistics show that an estimated 26,9 million people are living below the absolute poverty line. It is estimated by Statistics South Africa that the unemployment rate is in the vicinity of 37%. It is therefore abundantly clear that one of the greatest challenges of the postapartheid era is the alleviation and eradication of the legacy of poverty and the creation of a social development system that is able to develop human capacity within communities that are self-reliant within a caring and enabling society.

The fight against poverty can never be that of the Government alone. It has to be an effort by those of us who really understand and are in touch with the desperate situation that the poorest of the poor find themselves in. Poverty destroys human dignity. We believe that it is critical to create a society that will accord all our citizens simple human dignity. In all the facets of our national life we need to embrace a new and inclusive South Africanism aimed at achieving unity of purpose in ridding us from the shackles that are still holding us and preventing us from growing to our full potential as a nation.

We should all be committed to the agenda of social transformation that is embodied in the principle of social justice and the Bill of Rights contained in our Constitution. We must endeavour to create a better life for the poor, vulnerable and excluded people in our society.

Our task should be to reduce poverty and promote social integration. We need to develop and monitor the implementation of social policies that both create an enabling environment and lead to a reduction in poverty. We must ensure the provision of social protection and social welfare services to all our people who are in need of such services.

The New NP is satisfied with the key objectives that the Department of Social Development has identified, which are the mitigation of the social and economic impact of HIV/Aids on poor households and children, achieving progressive realisation of children’s social and economic rights, and rebuilding families and communities through programmes empowering young, old, disabled people and women.

Die Nuwe NP verbind en beywer ons daarom om armoede te verlig en uit te wis. Ons sal alles in ons vermoë doen om die agb Minister, LUKs, departemente en plaaslike regerings te help in dié verband. Die Nuwe NP is ‘n party van dade, nie soos die DP wat net praat om kiesers te kry en nie na hul belange omsien nie. [Tussenwerpsels.] Wat skokkend is, is dat die DP/DA-beheerde unistad se raad net by planne bly en die implementering van hul program vir armoedeverligting nog nie in sig is nie. Die winter is hier en nog steeds is niks gedoen deur die stadsraad nie. Baie van ons in hierdie Huis ervaar en ken armoede op sy laagste vlak. Ek weet nie of die DA armoede ken nie, want as hulle dit geken en ervaar het, sal hulle saam met die Regering die pad loop om armoede uit te wis en op te hou kritiseer.

Toe die vorige burgemeester armoedeverligting sy eerste prioriteit wou maak, toe het die DA se nasionale leier, Tony Leon, gesê hy het vertroue in die burgemeester verloor, net omdat hy armoede wow uitwis. [Tussenwerpsels.]

Die DA gee nie om vir ons arm mense nie, daarom beveg hulle alle programme wat die Regering en sy vennote van stapel wil stuur. Die Nuwe NP wil en sal die Minister, ons plaaslike Minister, LUKs en die departement help om hierdie euwel uit te wis. Ons is bly dat die begroting konsentreer op verskeie aspekte om ons mense te help, en spesifiek ons kinders en ons jeug. Voorwaarts in die stryd teen armoede! [Applous.] (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)

[We, the New NP, therefore commit ourselves and strive to relieve and alleviate poverty. We will do everything in our power to assist the hon the Minister, MECs, departments and local governments in this regard. The New NP is a party of action, unlike the DP that just talks to gain voters, without looking after their interests. [Interjections.] What is shocking is that the DP/DA-controlled unicity council stagnates at the planning stage while the implementation of their poverty alleviation programme is nowhere in sight. Winter is here and still nothing has been done by the city council. Many of us in this House experience and know poverty at its lowest level. I don’t know whether the DA knows poverty, because if they had known and experienced it, they would stop criticising and join the Government in walking the road to wiping out poverty.

When the former mayor wanted to make poverty alleviation his first priority the DA’s national leader, Tony Leon, claimed that he had lost his confidence in the mayor, just because he wanted to wipe out poverty. [Interjections.]

The DA do not care about our poor, that is why they oppose all programmes that the Government and its partners want to launch. The New NP will and is going to assist the hon the Minister, our local Minister, MECs and the department to wipe out this evil. We are pleased that the budget concentrates on different aspects of helping our people, especially our children and youth. Onwards in the struggle against poverty! [Applause!]

Mr M L FRANSMAN (Western Cape): Chairperson, hon Minister, MECs, hon members, comrades and friends, during the last few years of our young democracy, the previous government of the Western Cape had an attitude of going it alone. Attempts were made to showcase the Western Cape as an alternative to the rest of the country. Yes, indeed, an island mentality started to creep in.

Fortunately all this came to an end on 5 December 2001 with the formation of a new provincial government between the ANC and the New NP. The new government is built on the foundation that this province is part and parcel of the rest of Africa and South Africa, that we are aligning our policies and programmes to those of the national Government and that we will not, do not want to and shall not go it alone. Hence we have taken up the challenge posed by the President on 8 January 2002 and accepted that the Western Cape’s two critical challenges are tackling racism and poverty.

On the eve of the World Summit for Sustainable Development, the launch of the African Union and Nepad, we all understand that the greatest threat to our success as a nation and continent is poverty. We also understand that, in social development, whatever we do to address the wellbeing of our people, and in particular to provide them with a safety net for survival, we have to address poverty.

Moreover we need a vision that will guide us to building strength and stability in our communities. I believe that vision is crystallising and gaining momentum, and the Minister’s budget points the way forward for us in our provinces.

I agree wholeheartedly with the Minister’s approach that our first priority is that of children. Children remain the most vulnerable members of our society and are those who we have the greatest duty to protect. It is our responsibility as adults to create an environment where children can just be children. In a situation where the child support grant, at R130 per month, makes a very significant impact on the quality of life of the poorest children, we must surely concentrate our efforts where there is the greatest need.

In the Western Cape, I have prioritised key areas of focus which include the registration of people eligible for grants; the abuse of children, women and the elderly; implementing the UN and national programmme of action for the aged; strengthening the provincial programme of action for children; strategy around street children, with the key emphasis on re- integrating them into society; and the accessibility of our services and the integration thereof.

At the opening of Parliament the President called for a massive registration drive with regard to social security benefits. We have heeded that call and successful registration campaigns have been launched around the intake of grants in poor African and coloured communities.

Let me illustrate this. We are this month already exceeding 160 000 and, at current projections, we could exceeded 195 000 by the end of the financial year. As can be seen, we have taken up those challenges and we will deliver on them. We understand the need for delivery at this pace and support the Minister in that vision of a self-reliant society. Obviously we are struggling with balancing the need with the available funds in our budget.

Of course the child support grant is not the be all and end all of addressing the needs of children. Today the Minister will bring to a close Child Protection Month in the Western Cape, which is an extended programme of the national Child Protection Week held at the end of May 2002. I can also just mention that even our soccer team, Bafana Bafana, will be supportive of this programme as far as the protection of children in Khayelitsha is concerned today.

The Minister’s focus on protecting our children so that we create a world fit for children will also find expression in the Western Cape through the coming into being of the Commissioner for Children in this province. The legislation will be passed this year and by next year we will appoint a commissioner who will look specifically at the wellbeing of children.

As I mentioned, we are prioritising in terms of the greatest need so that we target the most vulnerable in society for intervention. Accordingly we have not concentrated on the child support grant at the expense of the other grants. For example, our disability grant numbers have grown by about 20 000 since March this year. The total number of beneficiaries across all the categories has grown from March 2002 to June 2002 by approximately 50 000 recipients. Quite clearly the need in our communities out there is great and we have an obligation to reach all of them.

Building a caring society is not only about money, but also about values that we, as a society, create. We in the Western Cape finally have a representative government that can address the needs of our people. It has now adopted an overtly pro-poor approach that orientates Government towards the poor by ensuring basic services, an indigent policy, a safety net and a caring budget. Four key focus areas have been identified, namely HIV/Aids, unemployment, crime, and poverty.

Through the appointment of our development quality assurance, or DQA, officials we believe we will be able to make an impact assessment of money and projects that NGOs, CBOs and institutions receive. A closer monitoring of the deracialisation process at old age homes is taking place. When I took office it was quite clear that especially our African areas were not being given the services they deserve. Corrective steps have been taken through the opening of a pension payout point at Brown’s Farm in Philippi.

Here I wish to agree entirely with the Minister that it is about values and the kind of society we create. No matter the amount of money we spend on social grants and development, if it is not based on a moral order underpinned by values, we will not succeed. Accordingly, we will provide our unqualified support to the moral regeneration initiatives of Government. Our beneficiaries must believe that we have their best interests at heart, otherwise they will walk away from our initiatives.

This finds its starkest expression in how beneficiaries are treated in the processing of their applications at pension payout points. I must once again commend the Minister for his insight in making this a priority. In the Western Cape we have declared war on the backlogs. We have virtually eliminated our backlogs and currently we process an application within 35 working days. I have already set a new target of 25 working days. We are proud that we can process a disability grant for severe HIV/Aids sufferers within five working days.

We are also especially proud that we have in this month awarded a R10 million tender to ECS, a joint venture company between Siemens and MKMVA, the uMkhonto weSizwe Military Veterans’ Association, to convert all our files into electronic registries. We will, in due course, eliminate the lost-file syndrome as well.

As I indicated at the very outset, we cannot deal with any issue in social development without understanding that we have to do it against the backdrop of severe poverty. The Minister is therefore commended for having had the NDA transferred to his department.

Whilst the NDA had previously been marginalised in our province, we have now opened the way for it to take centre stage. In May of this year the NDA met the Western Cape government and was recognised as a key stakeholder in this province. Moreover, in a similar alignment, the province has placed the directorate that deals with poverty in the Western Cape within my department. Accordingly, I believe, there will be greater synergy between the provincial government and national Government around poverty.

My directorate will focus especially on poverty, with regard to research, poverty mapping, capacity-building, empowerment programmes and short-term and medium-term job creation opportunities. Currently, we are developing a provincial strategy on food security, dealing with open state land, commonage and capacitating small-scale farmers. We look forward to working with the Minister on the poverty relief efforts as expressed in the Integrated Sustainable Rural Development programme and the urban renewal programme, amongst other initiatives.

The message from the Western Cape today is that we give the Minister our unqualified support. We believe that the Minister’s budget points the way forward for us, and we will rise to the challenge to deliver to our people. In return, we look to the Minister, the House and the national sphere of Government to support us in our endeavours to ensure that we deliver to our people in the Western Cape. [Applause.]

Ms F B MARSHOFF (Free State): Chairperson, hon Minister, MECs present here this morning, hon members, to many South Africans this budget debate, with specific emphasis this morning on the integrated strategy for children and youth affected by and infected with HIV/Aids, is significant because it takes place during the month of June, a month that is dedicated to our youth.

This debate also takes place a day after the International Refugee Day while our memories of the plight of women, children and the youth are still very fresh. As a country and as a continent we have a responsibility to respond appropriately to the needs of women and children who have been uprooted from their communities. These children and women are exposed to poverty, abuse and disease.

Our experience of the integrated HIV/Aids strategy in the Free State is unique, because it marks the first inclusive major effort by Government to partner with the nongovernmental sector in service delivery in an attempt to respond comprehensively to HIV/Aids.

There are many areas in which Government works with the NGO sector in the fight against HIV/Aids, but none of these are as inclusive and representative as this one. This programme has succeeded in involving historically marginalised community structures in service delivery. None of these are as comprehensive in type of service provided as this programme, and none of these are as decentralised as this programme.

Through this programme we can state with confidence that the department of social development in the Free State is indeed on course with its commitment to the mission of the White Paper on social welfare, which is to serve and build a self-reliant nation in partnership with all stakeholders, through an integrated social welfare system which maximises its existing potential and which is equitable, sustainable, accessible, people-centred and developmental.

Building a caring and self-reliant nation is an essential ingredient in the process of pushing back the frontiers of poverty in our communities. The ANC Government has always expressed its commitment to the fight against hunger, poverty, violence and insecurity, which have become the basis of inequality and discrimination in our country.

For the department of social development in the Free State, the integrated strategy programmes provide us with yet another weapon to promote and extend the frontiers of a democratic South Africa to include the infirm and the poor.

HIV/Aids is one of the critical issues that requires serious strategic consideration by all of us as Government, the business sector and civil society in our efforts to build a genuinely inclusive nonracial democracy in our country.

A study conducted by UNAID indicates that millions of children will have lost their parents by the year 2005. In the year 2000 the total was estimated at 15,6 million children, and in 2010 the total is expected to be 22,9 million children.

These millions of children and young people, the majority of whom will be in Sub-Saharan Africa, are more likely to experience and live under conditions of discrimination, poverty and powerlessness. The stigma and discrimination associated with Aids erodes and reduces the normal protection that all children enjoy in the community, and makes children affected by and infected with Aids more exposed to abuse and neglect.

Moreover, this discrimination destroys self-worth and, hence, the sense of control that any child needs in order to negotiate his or her development in his or her immediate environment. In the South African context the burden of Aids will be felt more intensely by people located in the rural areas because of the poor and less developed infrastructure and lack of services in rural areas. It is therefore within this context that our obligation to observe and protect the rights of special groups, such as children, youth and women in terms of the Convention on the Rights of the Child, Cedaw and our Constitution, has to be understood first and then directed accordingly. Rural areas do not have adequate numbers of NGOs or CBOs as service providers in order to augment Government efforts.

The integrated strategy programme therefore constitutes one of the policy and strategic frameworks through which Government seeks to meet its obligations to children and the infirm in ways that are cost-effective and accessible. Through this programme, Government, especially the Department of Social Development, is able to provide protection and alternative care for orphans of HIV/Aids without uprooting children from their cultural and social neighbourhoods. The number of children that will be affected by HIV/Aids clearly demonstrates the centrality and significance of this programme in securing a better future for our communities. It is a known fact that a peaceful and stable future for our country cannot be attained without sustainable development and progressive upliftment of our people out of conditions of poverty and unemployment. It is equally true that this prosperity alone will not be sufficient to push back the frontiers of poverty without a culture and a tradition of caring.

For the department of social development in the Free State this programme provides space for creative and grass-roots efforts that ensure that the needy get care, the hungry get fed and the weak get protected and nourished within their local communities.

The ability and commitment to take care, protect and feed the weak and vulnerable is a noble quality that should define us as South Africans and as Africans in future. It is a quality that must set us apart from our past as we look into the future of a prosperous African continent.

It is a known fact that the Government alone cannot address the needs of communities that arise from the spread of HIV/Aids. To a large extent, it is with the willing support and dedication of partners in the NGO and CBO sectors that we can really turn the tide against the Aids epidemic. We salute all the nongovernmental agencies that threw their weight behind the immeasurable success of this programme so far.

Partnerships are, however, not without challenges and difficulties. These challenges should not generate despair, but rather motivate us to do more and to improve on our achievements. Our biggest challenge as partners is to move ahead and confront our obstacles as a collective however big they may seem, whilst, at the same time, remaining true to our priorities as individual role-players.

The Department of Social Development has another critical responsibility within this programme. It is responsible for ensuring the availability and accessibility of social assistance, such as food parcels and grants to families and children in need. This is an area in which more effort should be made to review our legislation so that our efforts at preventing fraud and abuse are not made so tight so as to exclude cases genuinely in need of services.

In terms of the financing policy, which was gazetted in March 1999, the department has a responsibility to also ensure a greater representation of CBOs and other grass-roots structures among the community of partners in service delivery. More of these structures should also benefit from welfare funding.

The integrated strategy programmes provide an ideal opportunity to achieve this objective in the near future. However, the centralised system for NPO registration does not allow for a speedy resolution of this problem.

I am, however, confident that whatever challenges this programme may have imposed upon on us, we will be able to investigate and find ways of responding to these so as to ensure that available resources are utilised efficiently amongst all the service providers. I am equally confident that the Department of Social Development will always be a willing partner in the search for effective solutions within this collective.

In conclusion, I would like to express my appreciation for the support we have received from our colleagues, from members of the legislatures and from members of the select committee, as well as from the National Department of Social Development in the work that has been done this far. I would also like to remind hon members that no matter how small their impact may be, millions of our people need the kinds of interventions members have made and they are also aware that we are committed to creating a better South Africa and a South Africa, fit for children. [Applause.]

Ms E C GOUWS: Chairperson, hon Minister, hon colleagues, we see in the Estimates of National Expenditure for 2002 that the four key objectives of the Department of Social Development are to contribute to poverty eradication; to mitigate the social and economic impact of HIV/Aids on poor households and children; to achieve the progressive realisation of children’s social and economic rights; and, to rebuild families and communities through programmes empowering young, old and disabled people, as well as women.

We see that in three of the four objectives mentioned, children are specifically mentioned. This tells us that our focus is really where it should be: on the child and poverty.

The wise words of Juvenal spring to mind, when he says: It is not easy for men to rise whose qualities are thwarted by poverty.'' Here, I want to substitutemen’’ with ``children’’. If the future of South Africa is close to our heart, this is where we should start.

Social policy should aim to create a fair and equitable society, correcting poverty amidst plenty. In the case of children in dire need, it is essential that their basic needs are met. According to Acess - the Alliance for Children’s Entitlement to Social Security - it is widely acknowledged that our social security system is noncomprehensive, fragmented and inefficient. Many children fall through the gaps of existing provisions.

According to the findings of Acess, poor children between the ages of 7 and 18 are often hungry and do not have the means to access schooling, and children with disabilities are not catered for by the care dependency grant which provides coverage for children with severe disabilities who need specialised education.

Furthermore, it is clear that the school fee exemption policy that allows for poor children to be exempt from paying fees - in terms of the South African Schools Act - is not being applied in most schools. This policy should be enforced because it is the most common problem experienced and because poor children want to attend school.

The children themselves have ideas about improving social security. They say that indirect social security, for example feeding schemes, free uniforms, free services and transport to school, will go a long way towards improving the life of a poor, hungry child.

What is, however, beyond doubt is the necessity of extending the child support grant to all children under 18 years. We know that Government could hardly afford that amount of money, but if we can get the administration streamlined and effective then this is not beyond the budget. There are still many administrative problems on which we should focus. The difficulty in getting identity documents, birth certificates and death certificates poses major problems and, also, the distance that people have to travel to get these documents.

Security at paypoints needs to be addressed. Also, the inefficiency of staff and continual delays in accessing documents needed to apply for grants are still unjustifiable.

Laat my toe om net vir my Nuwe NP kollega in sy afwesigheid te sê: my party fokus op die verligting van armoede. Dit is nie vir my nodig om ander partye, of ander persone, aan te val nie. Dit is nie ons styl om ons eie onvermoë om te groei en in regering te wees te probeer verdoesel deur ander mense aan te val, soos hy gedoen het, nie.

Mnr A E VAN NIEKERK: Wat doen jy nou, sussie? [Gelag.]

Me E C GOUWS: Ek antwoord net daarop.

Daar is ‘n tyd vir alles, en daar is ‘n tyd vir belangriker sake. Hierdie is maar sommer net so ‘n dwarsklap in die verbygaan. Ek is seker dat die Minister al talle kere van hierdie probleme gehoor het: dié van die gesukkel om dokumente te kry en van swak administrasie. Dit is ook verlede jaar by verskeie geleenthede deur my komitee aan hom uitgewys.

Die spreekwoord sê: Rome is nie in een dag gebou nie, maar ons in die Oos- Kaap sukkel, worstel en karring nou al sewe jaar lank met dieselfde probleme. In al die gevalle is dit altyd die kinders wat die swaarste kry. Kinders wat nou in die koue winter honger, skamel geklee en kaalvoet loop op pad skool toe is ‘n algemene gesig in die Oos-Kaap.

Die R100-toelaag maak wel ‘n verskil in dié wat dit ontvang se lewens. Hulle word ten minste nie flou by die skool van honger nie. Ek kan vir die agb Minister die name van skole gee waar hierdie gesig nie die uitsondering is nie. Die Minister sal dan vir my herinner aan die skoolvoedingskemas wat hierdie voorvalle moet uitskakel. Ek kan maar net sê: dit is die Oos-Kaap. Enigiets gebeur hier: van die geld wat verdwyn, tot die brood en grondboontjiebotter wat nooit verskyn nie, omdat die leweransiers nie betaal word nie.

Verder wil ek die Minister vertel van die integriteit, of die gebrek daaraan, van sommige mense in uitvoerende posisies. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraph follows.)

[Ms E C GOUWS: Allow me to tell my New NP colleague in his absence that my party focuses on the alleviation of poverty. It is not necessary for me to attack other parties or other people. It is not our style to obscure our own inability to grow and to be in government by attacking other people, as he had done.

Mr A E VAN NIEKERK: What are you doing now little sister? [Laughter.]

Ms E C GOUW: I am only answering to that.

There is a time for everything and there is a time for more important matters. This is but merely a slap in passing. I am sure that the Minister has heard about these problems on many occasions: about the struggle to obtain documents and of the poor administration. This was also pointed out to him by my committee on many occasions last year.

The saying goes: Rome was not built in a day, but we in the Eastern Cape have been struggling, wrestling and continuing in this way for the past seven years, with the same problems. In all the cases it is always the children who are suffering the most. Children going to school in the cold of winter, hungry, scantily dressed and barefoot is a common sight in the Eastern Cape.

The R100 grant is making a difference in the lives of those who receive it. At least they do not faint at school as a result of hunger. I can mention the names of schools to the hon Minister where this sight is no exception. The Minister will then remind me of the school feeding schemes which should eliminate these cases. I can only say: this is the Eastern Cape. Anything happens here: from the money that disappears, to the bread and peanut butter that never appears, because suppliers are not being paid.

Furthermore, I would like to tell the Minister about the integrity, or the lack thereof, of some people in executive positions.]

In the year 2000 a number of Boston College exchange students spent six months at Rhodes University in Grahamstown. During that time they did community service work at St Mary’s Day Care Centre for Abused Children. When they returned to the United States, they decided to do something for the poorest of the poor in Grahamstown.

These students then collected second-hand clothes and coats, and their local rotary club gave them a donation to pay for the transportation of 12 containers to Grahamstown. When these containers arrived in Port Elizabeth by ship they were impounded by the Board on Tariffs and Trade and sent to Cape Town. The official reason given for the impounding was that the proper permits were not obtained. This was a huge disappointment for St Mary’s because they needed the clothing urgently.

They approached the constituency member for the ruling party in Bisho and, after that, officials in the Eastern Cape in a desperate move to get the clothes. Then they came to Cape Town and asked the Minister of Trade and Industry to intervene. In the meantime, the Good Samaritans in the US shook their heads in disbelief. The manager of St Mary’s and the bishop said that all permits were valid and were obtained timeously and that all the paperwork was done. Yet, these poorest of the poor children have still not received the warm winter clothing so badly needed.

I would like to tell the hon Minister that we cannot claim to have the wellbeing of the poor at heart when we allow uncaring adults to behave in such a cruel and uncaring way by illegally withholding the clothing for the needy. Incidents like these illustrate the lack of caring by some people in the bureaucracy. This, I say to the hon Minister, must be addressed and I quote Montaigne, who said: ``The lack of wealth is easily repaired but the poverty of the soul is irreparable.’’ Let us keep this in mind. [Applause.] Nkk J N VILAKAZI: Mphathisihlalo ohloniphekileyo neNdlu yonke, kithi KwaZulu-Natal siyalincoma igalelo umhlonishwa uNgqongqoshe analo emnyangweni wakhe ezingeni likazwelonke. Siyalincoma futhi igalelo likaNgqongoshe wesifundazwe saKwaZulu-Natal, uMntw G L Zulu.

KwaZulu-Natal uNgqongoshe engimncomayo womnyango kaNgqongqoshe udume ngokuthi uNgqongqoshe wempesheni noma wezalukazi ngoba phela yilapho ogogo nomkhulu bethembele khona ekutholeni imali kadekle neyokuguga njalo ngenyanga. UNgqongqoshe womnyango kaNgqongqoshe KwaZulu-Natal akezwani nezigilamkhuba ezigunyatha imali eholwa ngabantu abadala, abakhubazekile kanye nabo bonke abasizakala ngale mali, ikakhulu izingane ezikhuliswa ngogogo nezinkedama zengculazi ezidinga ukondliwa yile mali.

Owethu uNgqongqoshe uzivalele ejele kwaphela kanjalo izigebengu ebezihola ngomgunyathi. Abahola impesheni abasenankinga, imali yabo bayithola kahle ngekhadi okuthiwa yi-smart card. Leli khadi nalo siyalincoma kakhulu ngoba ngalo umholimpesheni uyakwazi ukuyithola imali yakhe noma ngabe ukuphi, kuphela nje uma egcine ilanga lakhe lokuhola. (Translation of Zulu paragraphs follows.)

[Mrs J N VILAKAZI: Hon Chairperson and the House at large, back home in KwaZulu-Natal we applaud the role that the hon the Minister plays. We also applaud the role of the MEC of KwaZulu-Natal, Prince G L Zulu.

In KwaZulu-Natal the MEC that I am praising here is popularly known as the MEC for pensions or for the aged, because he is the one on whom the old women and men rely for disability grants and old age pensions every month. The MEC in KwaZulu-Natal does not tolerate crooks who defraud old age pensioners, disability grant recipients and all those who benefit from these funds, especially children in the care of the aged, Aids orphans amongst others.

Our MEC simply had the culprits arrested who have been receiving payments by underhand methods. Pensioners’ problems are over now. They get their money by using a card known as a “smart card”. We really applaud this card, because it makes it possible for the pensioner to receive his or her money wherever he or she is, as long as he or she has honoured his or her payout day.]

We highly commend the MEC for social development in my province, KwaZulu- Natal, for his talent and expertise in identifying and dealing with corrupt elements within the system in a more appropriate manner, without any waste of time. Hence, the pensioners of all categories are well looked after and well catered for every month.

As we all know, the Department of Social Development is one of the main hopes of most people who depend on it, withdrawing money every month for survival, whether an old age or a civil pension, or disability or social grant of whatever nature. This is, indeed, an overwhelming source of support for all South African citizens.

We salute the national Minister of Social Development for having raised the child support grant, although it may not cover much because of the needs caused by the HIV/Aids scourge in the province. Some children have all of a sudden become the head of the family after the death of both parents.

Therefore, the IFP would like to see more money and supervision given to such families to enable children to have sufficient food and clothes and, at the same time, to be able to continue with their education.

Kuye kusiphathe kabi ukuzwa ukuthi kukhona imali ebuyela emuva ingasetshenzisiwe. Esabelweni sonyaka ka-2001/2002 kunemali eyizigidi ezingu-R78 engasetshenziswanga. Impela kusiphatha kabi lokhu ngoba kukhona izinkedama ezilala imilomo imhlophe qwa ukweswela. Kweminye imizi abazali basuke sebethathwe ubhubhane lwesifo esihlasele umphakathi i-HIV/Aids. Abanye abazali basuke begula, belahlekelwe umsebenzi ngenxa yaso lesi sifo, kulanjwe emndenini ikati lilale eziko.

Umphakathi ungasizakala ngale mali eyizigidigidi ephindiselwa emuva. Kunganjani abezenhlalakahle nentuthuko yomphakathi bakhe izindawo ezinganakekela abantu ababulawa yindlala nabaswele okokwembatha, kuqoqwe kulaba abanakho, izingane ezifundayo zikwazi ukuthola ukudla okunomsoco, kungabi bikho umndeni noma umuntu olala umlomo umhlophe qwa indlala? Izingane ezishiywa abazali kufanele zikhuseleke ukuze zikwazi ukuqhubeka nemfundo uma kudingeka nogogo abasala nezintandane bangavuthuzeli impesheni yabo ekondleni izintandane. Umnyango kufanele uluthi xaxa usizo kubona ukuze kungabi bikho imali ebuyela emuva abantu bebe bentula usizo bengalutholi.

Imali kaxoshindlala ayingabi iconsi lomkholongo, itholwe kanzima futhi itholwe ngabathile kuphela. Kufanele bayithole labo abadinga usizo lwembewu nezinto zokusebenza. Abadinga imali yokuthenga ukuze bakhiqize lokho abanekhono lokukwenza ukuze baphile nabo mabaluthole usizo. Ukuba le mali ephindiselwa emuva beyisebenza izinto ezinjalo, akekho umuntu obengakusola lokho. Usizo maluphume kalula njengezikibha esikhankasa ngazo uma kuzoba nokhetho.

I-IFP iyalincoma igalelo likaNgqongqoshe nomnyango wakhe. (Translation of Zulu paragraphs follows.)

[We get very upset whenever we learn that there is some money which has remained unspent. In the 2001-2002 budget R78 million was not used. This really upsets us, because there are orphans who go to bed hungry. In some households parents have died of HIV/Aids. In others they are sickly and have become unemployed due to this disease and as a result families starve.

The public can benefit from these millions and millions of rands that are sent back. How would it be if social welfare and community development built centres to take care of the destitute and collect from those who have means, so that school-going children can receive nutritious food, so that no family or individual goes to sleep without a meal? Orphans must be protected and supported so that they can pursue their education where necessary. The elderly who keep orphans should not spend all their money on providing for them. The department needs to increase its financial support so that no funds are returned while people need help and are not getting it.

Funds targeted for poverty alleviation should not be made available to only a special group or individuals, but must be equally accessible to those who need help to secure seeds and implements. People who need money to buy materials to produce what they are skilled in and make a living with must be assisted. If this unspent money had been used for such things, no one would complain about it. Assistance should be as easily available as the T- shirts we wear in campaigning for elections.

The IFP applauds the contribution by the Minister and his department.]

Mr H T SOGONI: Chairperson, hon Minister, MECs, special delegates and hon members, in supporting the Budget Vote I would like to be allowed to identify myself with and to give my full support to the aim of the department, which is to contribute towards improving the quality of life of the poor, the vulnerable and the marginalised. Poverty is still prevalent in most communities in our country. Its eradication is therefore among the key objectives of this department. Allow me to also highlight some facts that make quite interesting and serious reading about poverty in my own province.

The Eastern Cape is considered to be the poorest province based on monthly household expenditure. The poorest district councils - Alfred Nzo and O R Tambo - are also in the Eastern Cape, and the poorest magisterial districts of Elliotdale and Willowvale, are, again, in the Eastern Cape. The above information is based on the 1995 income and expenditure survey, merged with data from the 1995 annual October household survey, and then compared with equivalent data from the 1996 census.

The Eastern Cape is the province most in need of infrastructural development such as clean water and sanitation. It is also the province most in need of improvement in life circumstances, such as employment creation and family planning. The hon Minister’s dedication and passion to tackling poverty head-on is highly appreciated by the people of the Eastern Cape. However, the UDM is fully aware that his department alone cannot win the battle. It is an effort that requires that other departments and the people of the Eastern Cape join hands with the Minister.

Estimates of the proportion of South Africans living in poverty differ. Statistics SA recorded 29% of people living in poverty in 1996, much lower than the estimate of 52% as reflected in the 1996 census. Poverty is most widespread in rural areas and more prevalent in households headed by women in the largely rural provinces of the Eastern Cape and the Free State. The increasing rate of unemployment has been a major factor contributing to high levels of poverty and inequality. Available information reflects that unemployment rose from 17% in 1995 to 23% in 1999, and to 27% in 2000. Twenty-six per cent of poor households are dependent on state transfers such as old age pensions. Such are the challenges facing us as a nation in eradicating poverty and inequality.

Programmes launched by the department in the past seven years are designed to provide people with access to certain assets and capabilities needed to overcome poverty. Progress has been made in increasing access to basic needs and in reducing deprivation, but forbidding challenges still remain. More insight in this regard has been gained from the recently published draft report of the Committee of Inquiry into a Comprehensive System of Social Security for South Africa. According to the report, the poorest communities are still living in conditions that compromise their human dignity.

Barriers to accessing basic facilities by the poor remain administrative and institutional. Lack of capacity or capacity to spend have always been reasons given to explain the problem. Some individuals living in abject poverty have difficulty in accessing health care and primary education, because they lack the basic income for transport, food and clothing. Although the Government programmes to fight poverty are critically important for sustainable human development and economic growth, their efficiency for now, and especially regarding the poorest people in the rural areas, is, however, compromised by the unsustainable levels of poverty.

Another important finding by the committee relates to the current range of poverty relief programmes being unable to make any significant impact on mass-based unemployment and levels of income poverty. Many of the projects are also not cost-efficient in terms of their outcomes. Many programmes for alleviating poverty are not targeted effectively in rural areas and at beneficiaries. Rural women and disabled people, to give examples, still find it difficult to gain access to land in order to benefit from these programmes.

Having said all this, what is most appreciated is that the Department of Social Development is seen to be taking care of these challenges that obstruct all endeavours to fight poverty. The report of the committee of inquiry, already referred to earlier, is a clear indication that the department seeks every available and the most effective and sustainable options to succeed in the war against poverty. It was indeed an exceptionally good idea to create an opportunity through the committee to engage people themselves, even the poorest, to represent and express themselves about how poverty ravages their lives. The content of the report is, however, a subject for another debate. For now, the UDM supports the Budget Vote. [Applause.]

Ms M A MOTSHEKGA (Gauteng): Chairperson, Minister, MECs present, members of the NCOP, ladies and gentlemen, on 16 June 1995 South Africa’s old democratic government ratified the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child and, in so doing, committed South Africa to implementing the principles of first call for children, in terms of which the needs of children are considered paramount in all government programmes, services and development strategies. Therefore, the Gauteng programme of action is guided by these principles, the lead department in Gauteng being the department of social development.

The vision of the programme is to create a society in which children are protected and developed to their full potential, the mission being to operationalise the principle of children first'' in all policy and programme development in the Gauteng province. The guiding principles are Children first’’; promoting co-ordination of activities, especially at the local and community levels; promoting complementary policy development; ensuring effective intersectoral collaboration and partnerships to support the planning, implementation and monitoring of the children’s programme; and to develop mechanisms which will maximise all efforts to provide quality services to children. The other aim is to ensure that we avoid duplication and competition amongst departments and organisations involved in the children’s programme.

Gauteng is the smallest province in the country, occupying only 1% of the total area of the country, but is the most densely populated area with 18% of South Africa’s population. It has the highest percentage of growth and it also has the highest percentages of international and local migration. It has its own a typical age structure, a small number of young people and an above average proportion of people of working age. Gauteng is the only province which has more men than women, and the highest percentage of people moving in and out of the province.

In Gauteng statistics are collected and emphasis is placed on econometric data, with that data reflecting averages for magisterial districts and not specific areas and groupings within those areas. This obscures the reality of poverty in the province, especially the poverty affecting children. But Gauteng, being the most densely populated area in our country, has a correspondingly high number of people, including children, living in poverty. It has a high number of children who come from outside the country and of unaccompanied children coming over our borders requiring help and assistance from Government.

Owing to its unique character, Gauteng also attracts the problem of child labour as children are recruited from different parts of the country and brought to Gauteng as child labour. We have started a programme in collaboration with other sister departments, the SAPS and the department relating to safety and liaison, to make sure that we track down children who have been recruited and brought to Gauteng as child labour. A partnership does exist between the SAPS and the provincial safety and liaison department in Gauteng to combat commercial sexual exploitation of children, which is also one of the manifestations brought about by the poverty the children find themselves in.

The recent raids on hotels harbouring children involved in child prostitution has been a collaborative effort. Underage children are removed from identified brothels and placed in places of safety. Special programmes and training are being provided to help child care workers deal with this new phenomenon, and we have different rehabilitation projects that we are putting in place to protect our children.

As I have mentioned, Gauteng also has the unique problem of refugee children. The provision of services to refugee children continues to be problematic in Gauteng. The department of social services and population development is responsible for placing children under temporary care in the places of safety. Unfortunately, these children are not registered or awarded refugee status. They are not entitled to apply for identity documents at the Department of Home Affairs. As a result, they are not allowed to apply for social security in terms of the Social Assistance Act. Furthermore, access to schooling which is incumbent on identity documents or permanent residence certificates is thus denied to these children.

With regard to another programme we have in Gauteng, we are putting in place special measures to protect children with special needs. This includes children living in difficult situations, such as those who are working and living on the streets, children living in poverty, children who are orphaned, children who are challenged, victims of violence, refugee children or unaccompanied minors, and those affected and infected by Aids. In Gauteng this has been one of the areas that required the most integration and intersectoral work, and I think it is taking place successfully. There are 6 193 children in foster care and, as a result of the HIV/Aids pandemic, it is projected that these numbers will increase dramatically in the coming years. We have 52 registered children’s homes which accommodate about 4 000 children. The department of social services and population development in Gauteng manages about seven places of safety, five detention centres and one secure care centre in Gauteng. Owing to the increase in the number of reported abuse, neglect and HIV cases, the demand for placement is rising. This has necessitated the building of an additional secure care facility for children at the Van Ryn place of safety.

We are still awaiting the finalisation of the regulations in respect of the Gauteng Street Children Shelters Act of 1988. Various street children’s shelters are being registered and accommodate about 1 200 children. There are currently 36 shelters, of which eight are registered, and in total they can accommodate, as I have said, about 1 200 children.

I would like to focus more on the question of poverty as it affects our children, an issue which is led by our able Minister. We have also, as a province, relooked at and re-examined our strategies to make sure that children are protected, with more emphasis on protecting children living with Aids. We are vigilant about this in that as the scourge of Aids continues to ravage our communities, the needs and plight of the children continue to be our first call. With the Minister’s support and encouragement, we are continually relooking at and re-examining our services to ensure that children are protected and our future is protected.

Amongst other things, we are dedicating a special line in our call centre to get communities and families to alert us to children who are in difficult situations, who are not receiving state assistance or who require state assistance.

We are also convening bimonthly meetings with members of mayoral committees in local government who are charged with welfare and social development in order to help collaborate and support each other’s work on issues affecting children, especially children living in difficult situations.

The department of social services is responsible for paying grants to beneficiaries in order to to alleviate poverty amongst underprivileged children. At present in Gauteng we are paying for the foster care of about 6 193 beneficiaries; for the care dependency of 2 891 beneficiaries; and more than 120 000 child support grants. In line with the Minister and the President’s call, we are also working very hard to extend the child safety net. We have put in place a massive programme to identify those children who have no access to or who do not access our grants. In collaboration with the Department of Health and the Department of Home Affairs, we are helping those children acquire the necessary documentation in order to be able to process the grants.

In the process of reorientating our poverty alleviation strategy, we are also intending to change our targeting strategy to make sure that we target the vulnerable people through the children. We are doing this through working closely with schools and clinics so that the families of children who perhaps go to school malnourished can be tracked down and those are the families which are being targeted for our new poverty alleviation programme.

Under the able leadership of our Minister, we are committed and we want to ensure that at all costs as a province we do not fail our children and, also, that we do not fail our country and its future, which is its children. [Applause.]

Mr P M BASOPU (Eastern Cape): Chairperson, allow me to tender an apology for our MEC, Comrade Kondlo, who could not make today’s debate. The department of social development in our province, particularly this year, put more emphasis on development, as the central feature of operation, in its various programmes. Although there are various programmes within our department we will, for the purposes of this debate, be brief and confine our presentation to three identified programmes, namely the integrated HIV/Aids plan, poverty eradication and the child poverty programme.

The department has since been engaged in the national integrated plan for children and youth infected and affected by HIV/Aids. This strategy includes community home-based care, voluntary testing and counselling and has life-skills components. The department has piloted the above strategy in Tsolo and Butterworth. Through good lessons learnt from these sites, it was deemed fit to replicate the process at three more sites, that is Bathurst, Mdantsane and Motherwell, in this current financial year.

An amount of R4,6 million will be allocated to the province as a conditional grant to run these programmes. We will implement new poverty alleviation programmes, targeting infected and affected families in an attempt to break the vicious cycle of poverty and HIV/Aids.

The policy speech for this year clearly outlined that the department would expand and strengthen both educational programmes, and the care and support of families and communities affected and infected by this disease.

In line with the theme of pushing back the frontiers of poverty, the department will be engaged in the following activities. Firstly, the focus this year is on reaching more than one million children in distress and arranging suitable placements for them, that is the orphans, and also assisting with social relief for needy families. Secondly, an amount of R1,5 million has been set aside to assist approximately 850 000 families with food parcels in order to curb the plight of poverty, especially in the Alfred Nzo district municipality, which has a high poverty rate. In our province affected households are found with literally nothing to eat for the day.

The areas that have been targeted for assistance, that is for social relief are: Tsolo, where 250 families are being targeted over 12 months, Elliotdale, Butterworth, Mdantsane, Bathurst, Mzimkhulu, and Lusikisiki. One hundred families in each area will be targeted over 12 months, while in Motherwell 50 families will be targeted over 12 months.

In fast-tracking the community home-based care programme, the department has planned to establish these programmes in six districts with the assistance of volunteers. An amount of R533 000 has been set aside to assist with the payment of a volunteer incentive of R300 per volunteer per month. This will also be strengthened by having training workshops for volunteers and there will be community mobilisation to make these programmes more visible and sustainable.

The department has also planned to strengthen the capacity of NGOs as partners by setting aside an amount of R1 million, which will go towards community initiatives rendering services to children, youth and families infected and affected by HIV, targeting 20 NGOs to be reached this year.

The department has forged a partnership with Unicef this year with a view to assisting in conducting research in the form of a situation analysis of vulnerable children and an evaluation of services rendered to children and youth infected and affected by HIV/Aids. This will assist the department in developing more informed plans and effective strategies that seek to address identified needs and rights of children.

There are challenges. To make these interventions a reality, we have subjected the HIV/Aids unit to institutional realignment by upgrading it into a subdirectorate of a newly established community development directorate, with dedicated district and service office co-ordinators, as an attempt to address human resource challenges.

The department is experiencing huge budgetary constraints as it depends mostly on the conditional grant to implement effective service delivery across the province. An amount of R1,6 million has been budgeted for in the province to deliver this service, but this has not been allocated yet. This will have a negative impact on the improvement of service delivery, especially where families live below the average standard of living.

With regard to poverty relief, the department has funded 26 poverty relief programmes in the past financial year, and six programmes in this financial year over a period of two years. According to the programmatic approach, these programmes have made a major impact, which assisted in changing the lives of ordinary Eastern Cape citizens, with a particular focus on rural women, for example the Mbalisweni women at Lebode, as have many similar programmes.

Currently, we are in the second year of funding these programmes, which will be implemented according to the following objectives. Firstly, there will be nine food security programmes, 10 HIV/Aids programmes, 1 youth programme, 20 rural women’s programmes and 20 children’s programmes. Our focus for this year will be on social facilitation programme design and training of programme participants as prerequisites for sustainability, and our focus will also be on food production and marketing.

The department is in the process of establishing an additional nine food security programmes, the only ones that will be added to this phase. However, three top-sliced food programmes will be considered, implying that six programmes will be established in each of the following six districts, which are Ukhahlamba, Chris Hani, Cacadu, Amathole, O R Tambo and Alfred Nzo, in this current financial year. The provincial department, in consultation with the national department, appointed two consultant organisations, that is Acete and Khula Development Facilitators to support the development of offices to strengthen the poverty relief projects. Another objective of the teams is to render the necessary guidance to projects, ensuring that programmes utilise funds in accordance with the PFMA principles in order to achieve sustainability. We are managing the support process to ensure that its objectives are met. Strict monitoring, both at district level and provincial level, is maintained. Regarding child poverty the department of social development in the province deals with child poverty directly and indirectly, because this is a crosscutting function. Our entry point as the department in the province will speed up the provision of access to all social grants, with particular emphasis on the child support grant, in collaboration with the health and home affairs departments.

Given the heavy dependence on the grants in the province, the socioeconomic impact of such access will be enormous, thereby improving quality of life. The province will be working on all grants for the rest of the three-year period, but special attention will be focused on the child support grant and the disability grant. At the end of the programme, systems and infrastructure will be entrenched and capable of managing future ongoing registration requirements.

The target for child support grant registration in the Eastern Cape is 648 053 for this year. To date, 277 939 children have been registered. It is intended that an additional 370 114 will register this financial year. Also, our HIV programmes mentioned above benefit children as well. For example, we direct orphans to foster care grants. We also deal with child poverty through the provision of food parcels to needy families infected with and affected by HIV/Aids in various parts of the province.

In conclusion, the department of social development in our province is one of those critical departments that is committed to pushing back the frontiers of poverty. The above-mentioned programmes are just three amongst other services that deal with poverty within the province. Despite the above, we have suffered massive underallocation at an operational level, which will negatively affect our ability to deliver. We therefore call upon this National Council of Provinces to assist our department in this regard. [Applause.]

Ms E M COLEMAN (Mpumalanga): Chairperson, hon Minister Dr Skweyiya, colleagues from other provinces, hon members, one of the fundamental objectives of our department is to assist Government in the eradication of poverty through all possible means and ways.

As the department of social services, population and development in the Mpumalanga, we acknowledge and recognise the fact that poverty is the enemy of development of the people of South Africa.

In terms of statistics, Mpumalanga is rated the fifth poorest province in the country, with a record 57% poverty rate. In line with the President’s opening address in Parliament this year, namely pushing back the frontiers of poverty, the department acknowledges the fact that considerable improvements have been made in the poverty profile of certain of our communities, most of those being in what is called ``poverty pockets.’’ Though such improvements are being considered in most of the areas, the face and status of poverty in our province remains a big challenge.

The department has compiled a document on the demographics of poverty in the province. From this document, the face of our people and that of the province is quite clear. Poverty is something that many of our people are experiencing and the scars are glaring. It is unthinkable how humanity survives the scourge of poverty when it has struck. This is mostly so because poverty is multidimensional and not easily defined.

In an effort to alleviate poverty, we have explored alternative responses and models. We have begun to focus on programmes instead of projects. We seem to be making bigger strides in this regard. In the year 2000-01, the total of 46 programmes initiated received support in the amount of R9,7 million and almost 1 134 people benefited.

I am pleased to report that the model has yielded and resulted in sustainable outcomes. As I report here today, out of the 46 projects, 19 are successful and consistently provide financial benefits of up to R700 per beneficiary on a monthly basis. These projects are clustered into nine programmes, comprising food security, HIV/Aids, manufacturing, arts and crafts, etc. A programmatic approach was adopted, as opposed to funding isolated, incoherent projects.

Currently, a total of 56 initiatives are being supported through a three- year funding period that commenced in 2001-02 to 2003-04. In monetary terms, the department has committed R4,3 million for the first year and R10,4 million for the second year, while for the last year, 2004, an amount of R6,8 million has been committed.

We are mindful that poverty affects mostly women and children. In trying to address this, we have funded initiatives with the primary target group being women who constitute 90%, with youth constituting 5% and men constituting 5%. As a prerequisite for funding, we have made the condition that there must be a 2% representation of people with disabilities in poverty relief initiatives.

In an attempt to sustain the poverty alleviation programmes, the following strategies were adopted in addition to the ones I have just mentioned. The province has set aside its own provincial reserve for poverty alleviation. The purpose is to support initiatives that fall outside the conditional grant. Nine entities received financial support last year to the amount of R655 000. For the current financial year, a total of R3,1 million was made available for the funding of 25 initiatives and for the strengthening of existing entities that have potential.

The province has embarked on a massive public education and awareness campaign geared towards positioning of communities for development through access to resources and information. A total of 634 projects are prioritised for the year 2002-03. As part of investment in human capital for sustainable development, the Department of Labour is implementing capacity enhancement programmes for all projects.

The department has transformed its poverty alleviation programmes into a community development section that embraces broader developmental mandates. These are some of the issues from which we want to enhance the foundation laid by the President and the Minister in addressing hunger, poverty and unemployment in our society.

We also acknowledge that the children are the future leaders of this country for sustainable development and as such they are a priority in all our programmes. We are, in that regard, currently funding 107 000 child support grant beneficiaries, benefiting 134 172 children. We have embarked on an aggressive marketing strategy on the child support grant in order to reach out to every member of society, including those in farm areas.

While we accept the Government responsibility of assisting children and our people living in poverty, we wish to condemn certain unbecoming tendencies of people who abuse initiatives or the generosity of Government. I speak here of people who abuse the system and benefit unlawfully from some of these schemes. We were forced to come to the same realisation on corruption and fraud and, as a department, to come up with strategies to assist in the restoration of the dignity and the intention or purpose of the grant. We were forced, in our concern, to engage communities, educating them about the benefits of using the system correctly - using the grant correctly to benefit those who qualify.

We introduced, as a department, a fraud prevention strategy called Operation Buyisa. Operation Buyisa simply means ``bring back’’. This operation, to a large extent, has managed to detect fraudulent practices prior to the commencement of the project. From the investigations conducted in terms of this operation in the Ehlanzeni region where we had a total of 34 637 beneficiaries, 7 252 beneficiaries could not turn up for reregistration and 275 of those who turned up were discovered to be fraudulently involved.

We have a crisis which requires the involvement of common society to help the natives of our country out of a scourge which continues to erode the masses of our people, in particular the youth. The HIV/Aids pandemic is real. The speed at which it is spreading does not only threaten life, but will threaten the economy of our country in years to come. A country without youth will have a limited think-tank, and its future leaders and future will be limited. Based on this realisation, we continue to direct resources to community-based initiatives for the care and support of people affected by and infected with this pandemic. We do so hoping that one day a solution to this crisis will be found. The statistics on orphans identified in terms of the Masoyi home-based care project and other home-based care projects definitely call for a response from the department and other stakeholders in our society.

Operation Nakekela, a process that was implemented to identify orphans in the communities who need support and care, has been implemented. Two such initiatives under Operation Nakekela involving social workers and volunteers were undertaken from 6 to 17 November 2000 and from 12 to 23 March 2001, in which 1 698 children in the Ehlanzeni district were identified. Of this total, 263 have been placed in foster care through our courts. Twenty-one home-based and community-based projects were established and registered with the department in the previous financial year. An amount of R1,5 million has been spent to fund this operation - a conditional grant from the national Government. We want to continue with this operation to help address the problems around HIV/Aids and all issues affecting our children in general.

The major intentions are to develop capacity from the current home-based care projects, to establish new projects and to strengthen the existing ones. This will be our contribution, our engagement, in trying to assist those who need our support most. The department will continue, through the help of the national Government, to look at ways and means of bettering the lives of our people. [Applause.]

Mr R MASHABA (Northern Province): Chairperson, hon Minister, colleagues, hon members of the National Council of Provinces, whereas serious strides have been made in the past seven years of our democratic dispensation, there can be no doubt that the myriad of challenges that we face from time to time has the potential to compromise Government efforts to improve services. We will, however, remain determined to overcome these problems, especially because we count on the solid relationships that we have built with various stakeholders in the province.

With regard to poverty relief and children’s rights, paramount amongst the headway we have made and seek to consolidate is the measure of progress that we are registering in the area of poverty relief. In spite of the problems associated with the lack of facilities, water, electricity and marketing opportunities as well as skills, we remain convinced that we are succeeding considerably in making the necessary impact.

We remain aware that the sustainability of these efforts depends on the extent to which they are constantly monitored and supported so that their capacity can be strengthened further and expanded. This has required a review of our capacity-building efforts and a need to engender an integrated and sustainable approach to poverty relief.

Accordingly, the department is involved in various capacity-building programmes for both project members and staff, with links already established with such institutions as Medunsa, the University of Pretoria and the University of Cape Town.

To further ensure sustainability and to achieve the objective of an integrated approach, several initiatives are being launched in all the districts to link poverty relief projects with health institutions and primary school nutrition programmes. This initiative is already bearing fruit as some of our hospitals are already purchasing items like bread from the community projects.

Furthermore, these projects are being linked to the HIV/Aids community home- based care programmes so that items such as food parcels, clothing and blankets can be purchased directly from these projects for provision to families and individuals affected by and infected with HIV/Aids. During this financial year and beyond, we will also be ensuring that an additional allocation is made for projects to adopt child-headed homes.

Our commitment to do more than complain about the problems of child poverty, child abuse and neglect stems from the amount of determination and support that is beginning to flow from various sectors in our province. From our recent interaction with the SA Council of Churches, Sangoco in the province, the Youth Commission, organised business and traditional authorities, it is becoming clear that the majority of our people are ready to lend a hand in putting children first.

Linked to all these programmes is the imperative to reach out to all the needy children who qualify for child support grants and all the other relevant grants. We in the Limpopo province clearly understand the challenge and are therefore determined to access even the remotest of areas. We will endeavour to mobilise the youth, the students and community structures in general to realise this objective. We cannot afford to disappoint the needy children.

Regarding social security, hon members will recall that in our past policy speeches we have always been hammering on about the issue of inadequate budgets to meet the pressures that we are facing in the province. We would like to take this opportunity to appreciate the fact that our insistence on this issue has led to the additional allocation of R235 million at the end of the 2001-02 financial year. This has enabled us to pay an extra 17 697 old age grants, 11 457 disability grants, 2 061 foster care grants, 1 589 grants for care givers and 62 882 child support grants.

With reference to HIV/Aids, we are embarking on all these initiatives in the midst of the threat posed by the scourge of HIV/Aids, which, of course, is continuing to have a devastating impact on the population that we serve, as well as on our resources in general. As the major focus of the welfare branch of our department, we have rigorous programmes on community home- based care, counselling, support and care for orphans, as well as outreach programmes for young people.

We are strengthening our integrated messages and focus on issues of prevention, treatment, care and support, as well as on the human rights and legal rights of the affected and infected. We are supporting about 13 community home-based care sites in the province, which we envisage increasing to 30 by the end of the 2003 financial year.

Our gratitude goes to stakeholders such as Unicef and the Nelson Mandela Children’s Fund for the role they are playing in the community home-based care programmes in the province. Similarly, we have thus far been able to reach out to 1 369 families and to 1 649 orphans, including 42 child-headed families, all of whom are supplied with counselling services, food parcels, clothing, blankets and burial expenses. To meet all these challenges, we have increased the overall HIV/Aids budget from R2,9 million to R6,4 million.

Coming to social services, as we double our efforts to realise all these objectives, we also recognise the fact that our country and our province are reeling under a dark cloud that is tearing our moral fabric apart. Our province is also affected by incidents of child abuse and abuse of the elderly, rape and other forms of domestic violence.

In many instances our department finds itself having to deal with the consequences of these gruesome incidents. As a result, we have developed a range of programmes on matters of care for the elderly, children and the youth; on substance abuse; and on victim empowerment. We will strive vigorously to implement these programmes with the full support of Government’s commitment to the moral regeneration of our society.

In conclusion, we do acknowledge the fact that we are still far from meeting the challenges that exist in the province, and that they will require a great deal of resources for us to satisfy our constitutional mandate. We, however, appreciate the reality of the forward movement that we are witnessing in terms of the improvement of our budget allocations. The additional allocation of R235 million at the end of the 2001-02 financial year has, for instance, assisted a great deal in addressing our social security backlogs.

Social security forms the major part of the budget, constituting 94% of the total allocation. Within the budget, R20 million will go towards the construction and upgrading of paypoints to ensure accessibility and better services, and R7 million will go towards the maintenance of district offices and institutions.

As a province, we would like to support this Budget Vote. [Applause.]

Mr J O TLHAGALE: Chairperson, hon Minister, hon MECs, special delegates present here and hon members of the National Council of Provinces, at the request of my colleague Nono I am happy to announce that Brazil has made it to the semifinals of the World Cup by beating England 2-1. [Applause.] The task of eradicating poverty, a goal for which the department stands, is a huge one. Poverty, which I refer to here as a monster, is deep-rooted and widely spread among our people, and the rural dwellers are the worst affected. It is estimated that 40% of all South Africans live in poverty and hunger. When one takes into account the rising costs of basic and staple foods, one begins to see how difficult it is for our people to make ends meet.

We are agreed that the Government of the day may not fold its arms and do nothing. We are agreed that it must rise to the occasion and grab the monster by the horns. We cannot afford to see our people being devastated by poverty and hunger. So, the receiving a grant to alleviate this distress is not a privilege, but imperative.

We are agreed that relief and alleviation of distress can be brought about when this monster is attacked on all fronts simultaneously. This means that at the same time as social development pays its social grants, housing must provide low-cost housing, health must provide the necessary medical supplies and education must also play its part.

In that way, that is by providing an integrated implementation strategy, the beneficiary will find some relief from his or her stressful condition. So we want to applaud and congratulate the hon Minister on the allocation of funds for this purpose.

Another threatening monster in the lives of our communities is the prevalence of HIV/Aids. This monster has been the subject of hot and acrimonious debate in the news media. We are in support of the allocation of funds for this issue and we also support the preventative measures outlined, including the use of condoms. However, we are concerned about the disposal of used condoms. How exactly must the used condoms be disposed of so that they do not land up in the hands of innocent children? How exactly must they be disposed of so that they do not block drains and pile up at sewerage purification plants? This is our country’s problem. And I am not exonerating my party from this problem, but sounding a call timeously.

However, we are in support of the allocation of funds for this purpose. It is also noted with appreciation that the home-based care and the community- based care programmes would also receive their slice of the cake. This is very important for homes in which there is absolutely nothing.

In conclusion, I wish to applaud the hon Minister for his dedication in the midst of a stressful situation, and indicate that we support this Budget Vote. [Applause.]

Mrs M A KHUNWANA (North West): Chairperson, hon Minister, NCOP members, members of the legislatures from the provinces, MECs here present here, I greet you all. I am honoured to stand here and discuss the budget speech of the hon Minister of Social Development.

South Africa is still swimming in poverty. I wish that all of us here, all parties included, would join hands and give our people relief from poverty.

Poverty is a wall which we need to push away. When we campaigned for elections, all parties, including my party, promised our people a better life. So, we must continue to pursue this goal. It is high time that the Department of Justice and Constitutional Development and the Department of Social Development join hands to assist our people, especially our children. Maintenance is a thorn in the flesh. The standing committee on social welfare from the North West, together with the social development portfolio committee from the national Parliament, undertook an oversight visit to various magistrates’ courts. To our amazement we learnt that, indeed, the outcry of our people out there was genuine.

Women who receive their pensions through magistrates’ courts are ripped off. The people who defraud these women do not think about the fact that they are not only defrauding these women, but also our children, and our children are our future. Without our children, our future is doomed. As they rob these children of the moneys given to them by their fathers, they force them onto the street to look for food. As a result they do not even go to school.

We found in the magistrates’ courts in places such as Tlhabane, Mogwase, etc, that money was bundled together according to currency, lying around in the safes, with expired cheques and postal orders. Anybody had access to the keys of the safes. How much money survives theft? Of the officials working there, 80% are volunteers, volunteers who do not receive any incentives, neither do they receive fares or lunch. They are expected to be on duty five days a week from eight to four, and all that loose money is lying around! What can one then expect?

I request the Minister to do something to assist these children, as this is not a provincial competency. When we asked why the money was lying around and safe keys were not kept in safety, they said they could not get round to checking the money or keeping the keys to themselves because they were short-staffed.

I congratulate the Minister on increasing the amount of the social pension. Indeed, the ANC-led Government has its people at heart, one can imagine, because the social pension has been increased from a mere R350 to R620 a month. Indeed, this was a great relief for our pensioners who are, unfortunately, breadwinners. The Minister once said that no pensioner must leave a paypoint without being paid out, but, unfortunately, this is still happening.

With regard to the giving of child support grants to black children, this is historic, because the previous government left black children to fend for themselves without any assistance from government at all. Unfortunately, this money is now misused by the parents of these children. It is with regret that most of the parents who receive these moneys have a tendency of misusing it by having their hair done and drinking alcohol, instead of buying food and clothes for their children. We, therefore, recommend that the child support grant be given out in vouchers for either food or clothes so that it is used for its intended purpose.

Regarding poverty alleviation funds, the Government has taken extensive responsibility for providing these funds, but unfortunately, instead of the departments using them, they keep them in order to report them as a saving at the end of the financial year. How can anyone save at the expense of the poor? We know that the hon Minister is concerned about poverty alleviation, but he is being let down by his colleagues. I wish the Minister could instill the same feeling in his colleagues.

We recommend that food parcels be given to the poor, that more projects be introduced and monitored intensively so as to alleviate poverty, and that the department works together with other departments such as Health and Agriculture in order to be successful. I demand that the MPs and MPLs assist in this respect. I appreciate the efforts the Minister is making. He really needs our support, that is the support of the MPLs and MPs from all parties, to see to the implementation of sustainable projects in order to relieve poverty.

The Ministers of Social Development and Health should join hands to improve school feeding schemes. These funds are not adequate. Only children in Grades 1 and 2 have access to this food. In the meantime, some children, up to Grade 12, go to school hungry and this diminishes their concentration. Let us all protect our children. We must remember the slogan ``Children First’’.

Having said this, I request all parties to accept this Budget Vote unconditionally. [Applause.]

Nk M XULU (KwaZulu-Natal): Sihlalo ohloniphekile, ngibingelela umhlonishwa uDokotela Sikweyiya nabahlonishwa bonke abakhona eNdlini.

Uma umuntu ebuka lesi sabelo usibuka kube sengathi sikhulu kakhulu kanti ngendlela esinezinselelo ngayo, sibukeka sisincane. Abantu ababelwa sona baningi ngendlela eyisimangaliso. Kanti futhi kuthi kunjalo nje kube khona nalezi zigebengu eziyidlayo le mali, zingakayifaneli. Siyabonga kodwa-ke ngoba kukhona lapho kuye kuphumelele khona ukuthi ziboshwe.

Ngithi kumhlonishwa uNgqongqoshe ngifuna ukuma endaweni eyodwa, ngigxile kuyo. Kunezingane ezingenabani, izingane ezidinga ukusizwa, kodwa ngenxa yomthetho, okuye kutholakale ukuthi azikwazi ukusizakala. Ngikhuluma ngengane mhlawumbe esuke ifelwe umzali oyedwa, kwasala oyedwa. Kuleyo ngane, noma ngabe kufunekani kuyo, kuthiwa: Ukhona umzali osekhona. Kuye kube nenkinga yokuthi mhlawumbe lowo mzali akasebenzi nhlobo, futhi ibe ingekho into angayenza ngenxa yokuthi umthetho awuvumi. Kuye kube khona ingane engenabo bobabili abazali, esala emndenini. Kuthi uma umuntu eyihambisa laphaya kwabezenhlalakahle bafike umuntu bamthumele kulaba bezinhlangano okungezona ezikahulumeni.

Mhlawumbe, uma oyedwa umzali elahlekile, baye bafike lapho bathi makafunwe noma mabafunwe. Ngenkathi kufunwa, kuyothatha mhlawumbe unyaka kufunwa abazali. Kuqala ngokuthi kuthiwe umuntu akalethe izithombe ezizoya emaphephandabeni. Emuva kwalokho kufunwe lokhu, umuntu aze abone ukuthi nalabo bomndeni sebeyakhathala ngoba noma esethi uyocela ukuthi ake banikezwe phela okungamathikithana okucosha ukudla, njengoba uHulumeni ethi akekho umuntu okufanele alale engadle lutho esiswini sakhe, kuye kungaveli lutho. Kodwa, ngenxa yalezi zinhlangano okungezona ezikahulumeni, mhlawumbe ngenxa yobudedengu bazo, kuye kutholakale ukuthi kukhona umuntu okuphela iminyaka emibili kuya kwemithathu engakaze acoshe lutho lukhona olukaHulumeni.

Bengithi-ke ngizogxila kulokho impela ukuthi kungenziwa njani ukuze lo mkhuba unciphe ngoba kungumkhutshana impela okhona nakithi KwaZulu. Kodwa noma umuntu angaya emNyangweni, kufike kuthiwe akukho ezandleni zawo. Umuntu aye kulabo okuthiwa kusezandleni zabo afike abone nje ukuthi nabo bayazidonsa ngale nto, abazimisele ukusiza abantu bakithi abahluphekile. Mhlawumbe, banezinhloso zabo engingazi ukuthi ngingathi ziyini.

Bengicela ukuthi sengathi le nto kungaba iyona impela ebhekisiswayo ngoba, njengamanje, iyona esiphethe kanzima, ikakhulukazi thina esihlala nabantu, phansi. Ekuseni nje bekufanele ukuthi ngiye kusonhlalakahle ngiyokhuluma naye. Ngikhulumile naye wangithembisa. Ekugcineni, ntambama, ngithole ukuthi usazoya kocela kumphathi ukuze abhale nje incwadi. Osonhlalakahle bomNyango bathe akeze nencwadi, bona-ke bebezokukhipha lokho kudla ebengikucela. Kodwa kube nenkinga yokuthi usonhlakahle ubesazoya kocela kumphathi imvume yokubhala incwadi. Yilokho-ke engithi ake kulungiswe ngoba mhlawumbe akugcini KwaZulu. Nakwezinye izifundazwe kunokwenzeka ukuthi yinkinga ekhona, nasezweni lonke.

Noma kunjalo-ke, ngithi mangibambe iqhaza lokubonga kumhlonishwa uNgqongqoshe ngomsebenzi awenzayo, ikakhulukazi njengoba ethi ubeka izingane phambili. Siyathokoza thina KwaZulu ngokuthi siye simbone ehamba nomhlonishwa uNdabezitha bezosebenza umsebenzi wokuhlupheka kwabantu. Sengathi lokho ngempela kungaqhubekela phambili.

Ngithi futhi mangibonge kumhlonishwa ngemisebenzi yama-flagships ngoba siwabonile eqala futhi okuhle ukuthi asiza abantu besifazane. Nabo bakhombisa umdlandla kule nto abayinikwayo. Sengathi kuphela-ke angaqhubeka abe maningi ngoba phela KwaZulu, njengoba kuzwakala, nezibalo zinkulu. Konke kungaka, okusho khona ukuthi singabantu basezulwini, sinesibusiso, sibaningi kakhulu, futhi sanikwa kakhulu konke.

Ngithi angithandi ukuchitha isikhathi sikaNgqongqoshe kodwa uma kunikezwa abantu besifazane izinto, njalo nje ngiye ngithande ukubonga ngoba phela thina senesibusiso sokuba umgogodla wesizwe. Singumgogodla wendlu, ngaphandle komuntu wesifazane ayikho indlu. Kodwa, uma inomuntu wesifazane, noma behlupheke benjalo, kuyadliwa endlini.

Ekugcineni, ngithi kumhlonishwa uNgqongqoshe siyalubona lolu bhubhane olukhona, nezingane zisele. Kodwa-ke, yikho nje siqinisa ukuthi sengathi abantu besifazane bangahlonyiswa kakhulu ukuze bakwazi ukukhusela lezi zintandane ezishiywa ngabazali bazo. Umuntu uyabona ukuthi kumanje kunzima. Siyaseseka lesi sabiwomali. [Kwaphela isikhathi.] (Translation of Zulu paragraphs follows.)

[Ms M Xulu (KwaZulu-Natal): Hon Chairperson, I would like to greet the hon Dr Skweyiya and all the hon members in the House.

If one looks at this allocation, it looks quite substantial, but because of the many challenges that it has to accommodate, it is, in fact, meagre. The people to whom it is allocated are just too many. At the same time there are those criminals who pocket this money while they have not reached the appropriate age to be granted such money. We are, however, thankful that there are instances where they are successfully arrested.

I would like to say to the hon the Minister that I want to focus on one area - the orphaned children who need assistance, but who, because of the legal system, are not assisted. I have in mind, for example, a child whose one parent has died while the other one survives. Whatever that child needs, he or she is told that there is a surviving parent. It becomes problematic if that parent is unemployed, and there is usually nothing that he or she can do because of the legal system which does not allow him to do anything.

There are children who lose both of their parents. Such children are cared for by the extended families. If one takes such a child to the social workers, they in turn refer one to the NGOs. If one parent disappeared, those social workers usually say that steps must be taken to find him or her. That process of trying to locate lost parents may take a whole year. In the first place one is requested to bring photos which will go to the newspapers. Thereafter, one is told to bring this and that, so much so that the family begins to despair. Even when one pleads for that family to be given food coupons, since the Government says that nobody should go to sleep on an empty stomach, nothing materialises. But, because of the NGOs, perhaps through their negligence, some people end up not receiving anything from the Government for a period of up to two or three years, whilst there are resources that are available from the Government.

I want to focus on what needs to be done to eliminate that practice because it is prevalent even in my province, KwaZulu-Natal. However, even if one goes to the department, one is told that the matter is not within its jurisdiction. When one goes to those who are supposed to be responsible for those matters, one finds that they drag their feet regarding the issue. They are not prepared to help our poor people. Perhaps they have their own ulterior motives which are unknown to me.

I am requesting that more attention should be focused on that issue. It is our main problem, especially we who spend time with the people at grass- roots level. This morning I had an appointment with a social worker. I spoke to her and she made promises to me. Ultimately, I found out in the afternoon that she would have to get permission from the one in charge in order just to write a letter. The social workers of the department said all she needed to do was just to bring the letter to them, then would then have seen to it that the food that I had requested was issued. But there was that problem of the social worker having to first ask the one in charge for permission to write a letter. That is what I would like to see addressed because, perhaps, this is not only limited to KwaZulu-Natal. It is quite possible that that problem is also prevalent in other provinces and throughout the country.

Be that as it may, I would like to thank the Minister for the work that he does, particularly since he says he is championing the cause of children. We from KwaZulu-Natal want to commend him because we sometimes see him in the province together with the MEC for social development when they attend to the plight of people. I really hope that that will succeed.

I would also like to thank the Minister for the flagship projects. We have seen them being initiated and what is admirable is that women benefit from them. Women have also shown enthusiasm for what is given to them. However, we wish that more could be introduced, because, as the figures indicate, there is a dire need in KwaZulu-Natal. Everything there comes in huge sizes. That means we are people of the heavens and we are blessed. There are too many of us and we are well endowed with everything.

I would not like to waste the Minister’s time, but I am always thankful when something is done for women, because we are blessed, as the nation’s backbone. We are the backbone of a house and without women there is no house. But if there is a woman in a house, no matter how poor, she manages to find food to eat.

Finally, I would like to say to the Minister that we are quite conscious of the pandemic that is ravaging the country. Children have been left on their own. That is why we urge that women should be given skills and resources so that they can look after the orphans. One does see that things are, indeed, very tough. We support this Budget Vote. [Time expired.]] Prince B Z ZULU: Sihlalo, Ngqongqoshe ohloniphekileyo namalungu wonke akhona … Chairperson, hon Minister and hon members present …]

… social development is one area in which our work as Government is never done, because no matter what we do we will always have people needing our services, especially the most vulnerable in our communities. But what is highly commendable to all of those in the department is that despite the odds stacked against them, they continue to make a difference to people’s lives.

The department’s budget is structured in such a way that it primarily consists of the payment of social grants and the putting in place of poverty alleviation programmes to help improve the lives of our people living in poverty, some of whom live in abject poverty with the most atrocious living conditions imaginable.

What we have recognised in South Africa is that pushing back the frontiers of poverty is not something that will magically happen overnight, but that should not deter us in our efforts. We have to continue to be consistent and persistent, because whatever initiatives we undertake, they will make a real difference to the lives of the individuals or group that we do reach.

Partnerships with stakeholders in both the public and private sectors can assist Government in being vigilant and alerting them to areas that need to be addressed urgently, or to areas that need improved service delivery, following the Batho Pele principles. The NGO sectors, in particular, play a valuable role in creating awareness around pertinent issues and bringing them to our attention so that we can formulate the necessary remedies and improvements.

One such example is a report presented to our committee by the Alliance for Children’s Entitlement to Social Security, Acess. We were moved by the words of the children who spoke out on poverty as they personally experienced it in their homes and communities, and by their appeal to us in Government to make a difference in their lives.

Acess met with the department and ran workshops with vulnerable children in all nine provinces, focusing on children with disabilities, those infected with and affected by HIV/Aids, those living on farms, those living in informal settlements or on the street and those in foster care in order to ascertain the impact that poverty has on their lives. Their research shows that three in every four children - approximately 70% - experience poverty, with 25% experiencing stunted growth owing to malnutrition. Almost all these children face discrimination, isolation and extreme hardship, the likes of which we, sitting here in Parliament, have never experienced.

Some of the most enlightening utterances to come from these vulnerable children were the responses they gave when asked what they would do with a basic income grant valued at R100 per month. Contrary to our preconceptions that they would squander the money on junk food and the like, the children demonstrated that they intended to spend the money on items such as mealie meal, meat, school fees, rent, clothes, etc.

Even more remarkable is that these responses came from children who were aged seven, eight and older. There were children who knew what hunger was. There were children who understood far too well exactly what it meant to be poor.

All our national and provincial budgets should reflect the ways in which the vulnerable are being taken care of. Our focus on children should include ways in which we cut out all the red tape involving adults who cause unnecessary delays in accessing funding earmarked for children.

The children themselves reflected on the fact that when they were homeless, without a specific adult care-giver or in child-headed households, they were unable to access any social security. Some of their suggestions were that the grants for children be given directly to the children either through bank accounts or by way of free food, uniforms and schooling. Maybe this is something the Minister and his department should seriously consider.

Our children have spoken out on poverty. Let us encourage the department to eliminate the capacity constraints that are preventing the implementation of the policies and programmes developed by the national department. Let us call on all MECs to improve the skills levels of social security staff in provinces, and to improve poor infrastructure, especially in the poorer rural provinces, as it continues to have a negative impact on pension paypoints and other service delivery areas.

To the Minister of Social Development and to all his staff, I would like to say that we know that the department impacts directly on the lives of the most vulnerable. They must keep on pushing back the frontiers of poverty. [Applause.]

Mr N V E NGIDI (KwaZulu-Natal): Chairperson, let me start by congratulating the Minister on his policy speech as it gave us a clear picture of the great strides the department is making in the struggle for a better life for all.

During a similar debate last year, the Minister had this to say: ``Time may pass but the struggle for social justice continues.’’ To ensure that justice continues, we need to do the following. We need to eradicate the disparities of the past and bring about equity in such a manner that social security beneficiaries access their grants; and we need to protect, through the social assistance programmes of the department, the most vulnerable sections of our society, in particular our children.

Child poverty gives cause for concern in this country. Research shows that: ``Three in every four children, approximately 70%, experience poverty, with 25% stunted due to malnutrition. These children face shortages of food, clothing, shelter and access to basic services.’’ Our response to this crisis should be to ensure that our social security network is such that no child is open to a life of destitution. We need to improve our system and close the gaps in the existing provisions through which many children fall.

While the Government has made great strides in eradicating the disparities of the past with regard to our children, serious weaknesses still exist. In particular, the child support grant and the foster care grant need to be strengthened.

With regard to the child support grant, we need to attend to the following. The slow intake, as evidenced by the fact that we are still far from reaching our target, needs to be attended to. We need to consider capacitating provinces further via conditional grants so that they are able to speed up the intake. The issuing of birth certificates leaves much to be desired. This is worsened by the hostile attitude of some civil servants. While Ministers talk and make plans, let us also see them implementing plans to transform the mindset of the Public Service. Owing to the destitution of the parents of beneficiaries, grants are diverted away from the children. This needs to be addressed. Either we have a grant for these parents or we improve our poverty alleviation programmes.

Children aged between 7 and 18 are out of the net of beneficiaries. Some of them are orphaned and have absolutely nowhere to go. This calls for a relook into our social assistance programmes. Perhaps a debate on the findings of the Taylor commission may help us find answers.

With regard to foster care grants, the following problems must be addressed. The children’s court staff are not easily accessed. These courts need to be held more regularly than at present. Human resources at provincial departments need to be addressed. We have to ensure the facilitation of statutory supervision of children in foster placement and also the compilation of their home circumstances. Budgetary consideration will have to be given to equipping social workers to meet needs such as transport, computers and other equipment.

Let me conclude by saying that we need to speed up the process of improving our social assistance programmes in as far as they affect children. Children are an important resource of this country. If we eradicated poverty, where they are concerned, in a way that enabled them to access basic needs such as education, health care, housing and food, then the future of this country would be assured. We need to pay particular attention to the improvement of our social assistance net so that no single child is a victim of poverty. More importantly, we need to strengthen community and family structures and to empower them economically to be able to deal poverty a telling blow. [Applause.]

Ms S N NTLABATI: Chairperson, when one is the 19th speaker out of 20 speakers and knowledgeable people have spoken before one, one is left with nothing to say and one’s speech becomes irrelevant. Hence, now I am not even going to look at the speech I came to the House with because I do not want to bore people.

I am just going to touch on a few issues dealing with the ANC’s perspective, what we as the ANC have said when we were drawing up the policies - long before 1994 - and when we were drawing up the Reconstruction and Development Programme. I am going to do this in the context of pushing back the frontiers of poverty.

I just want to touch on a few abstract issues. We have a culture in which we talk about rights and tell our children that they have rights, but in terms of this there is one issue on which we never put emphasis and it is that these rights go along with responsibilities. I appeal to this House, when we move out of this, to please always emphasise to our children that these rights go along with responsibilities.

People have spoken about the child support grant, and a member has spoken about birth registration. But I say, let us not only look at the public servants, but also at ourselves. If ever one sees napkins in the street where one stays, one should find out from one’s friends whether they have registered their child. This is the method; this is what one should do. Let our constituency offices also be centres which deal with the issues of birth registration, and not only public servants.

There is a movement which has just been launched, which is called the Moral Regeneration Movement. I am not very clear about it as I just have the framework of what this movement will be about. When we talked about this, we talked about the involvement of youth. Let us also talk about the involvement of people under the age of 18 as we go along with this movement of moral regeneration, because the things children who are now five and six years old are learning from us are, they may think, the right things in the long run. So let us start with them now on the issues of moral regeneration.

An issue everybody has spoken about is integrated strategies of development. Something I want to refer to in this regard is health. Regarding promotive and preventive aspects, all of us and those in Social Development, tend to only be concerned about treatment, clinics for children to get medicine, etc, forgetting the most important issue, the number one issue. This is promoting health, that is, health education and preventive education. Let us be proactive and not only interventionist.

Regarding HIV/Aids and drugs, I appeal to the House that we catch them young. Let us ensure that even in the crèches they talk about HIV/Aids. Let us be clear about it. Let us talk to our children of five years old in crèches, and tell the girls what will happen if they do certain things. A girl has her own body, and another person has a different body from hers. These are the issues that we have to make them understand, so let us catch them young.

When I talk about children and targeting the places where the very young ones are found, there is also one institution to which most of us belong, and that is the church. The churches have what is called Sunday school, which caters for children up to the age of 18. The time has passed when they only had to be taught that Jesus Christ was born in Bethlehem. They have to be taught the realities and it is us, the members of the churches, who have to see to the curriculum of the Sunday schools.

My last point is about reading. We usually think that reading is an issue for the Department of Education, but we must teach our people the culture of reading from a young age, four and five years old. As we teach them a culture of reading, they are going to be able themselves to see certain things, even before we talk to them. The curious child will come to one and say: I have read about this. What does it mean? Also, ourselves as parents, have to pass on a culture of reading to our children.

Unfortunately, our grandparents were not literate. They may not have done this, but it is high time for us as grandparents and parents to treat this culture of reading, which is not necessarily only about doing homework and reading broadly, as an issue of social development. [Applause.]

The MINISTER OF SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT: Chairperson, I thank the hon members for their contributions. The fight against poverty requires more than giving money to people, but must be conducted in a manner that empowers people, recognises their human dignity and respects their basic human rights.

Building a new system of social development for the country is not something that will be achieved in a day. It is a long process. We have heard from almost all members that progress is being made, and that this progress cannot only have been coming from Government alone. It has also come from all members of society, including the private sector, faith-based organisations and nongovernmental organisations. More importantly, progress has and does involve hon members themselves.

I am heartened by the common theme echoed in this House today. Fighting child poverty is a priority and we must all work together in the interests of the children of South Africa.

Quite a number of members have raised the issue of the inaccessibility of identity documents and, more importantly, the issue of birth certificates for children. It is an issue that we have been tackling together with the Department of Home Affairs. I think that hon members have many a time heard the Minister of Home Affairs appeal openly and publicly that there is not enough money in that department. Without enough resources, it would not be possible for us working together to be able to attain what we both want to do.

But, I think, I can report to members that we have been working very closely together in many other ways. There is the example of Mount Frere, where we went out, and also of many other areas. The Department of Home Affairs sent out some mobile units in order to be able to register more children. More children were able to get birth certificates and access the child support grant.

We aim to go to many other areas, specifically in the Eastern Cape, KwaZulu- Natal, the Northern Province and the Free State, in other words, the former Bantustans, but we cannot do this as long as there is not enough money in the budget. It costs money, and there is not enough staff to do the job. Hence, we are appealing to our people to assist us in one way or another. We appeal to the youth to volunteer, to write down the names of these children and bring the names forward so that we can work together and ensure that we reach as many children as possible.

I heard Mrs Vilakazi raising the issue of money that had not been spent. I am not aware of any money that has not been spent in any province. But what we would like to explain is that the money does not come automatically. The money has to be finished and they have to come back to account for that money. If they cannot account for that money we cannot give them money.

So, it is on this basis that some of the projects have not been able to get the amount of money I am talking about, because they have only been able to account for two tranches. The third tranche, the last one, is not given out in many instances, because they have to account for the money. As soon as they are able to account for the money which, I think, this month some of them have been able to do, then they will get their money. But that means they are behind, because we have already started in other areas with the R100 million for this year. The hon member understands what I am trying to say?

Asinakubanika mali bengekagqibi kwaleya yokuqala ze basixelele ukuba benze ntoni ngayo. Bakuyigqiba laa mali kufuneka baze ngaphambili sibanike imali yabo, kodwa ke njengokuba besiza emva kwexesha nje abakwazi kuyifumana le sesiyiqale ngo-Apreli ngoba abakwazi nokutsho ukuba benze ntoni na ngale besibanike yona kuqala. Iyavakala keloo nto? (Translation of Xhosa paragraph follows.)

[We cannot give them money before they have used up the first amount and have submitted a report in which they account for it. When they have used up that money, they would have to come forward to us so that we could give them their money, that to which they are entitled. But, because they would be coming late, as we distributed money in April already, they still would not be able to get it when and if they cannot account for the initial amount. Is that clear to people?] That is what we are trying to say. I think that we have to be able to work together and assist these programmes to do these things, because it is not because people do not want to use the money. It is because we are not going there to assist them in how the money is used and how they have to account for it. That is where the main problem is at the present moment. But, I think, all in all a lot of progress has been made by many projects.

Ms Gouws raised quite a number of problems of concern, which I share. The take-up rate, for instance, in the care dependency grant, something I was telling the press about. The numbers are too low, specifically for the Eastern Cape, the Northern Province, Limpopo and the Free State. I think there is a need for all of us to work together to ensure that the children in this grade of care dependency receive more. We are concentrating on and prioritising that area in our child national registration campaign.

I also agree with the hon member that the administrative procedures are very cumbersome and that there is a need to accelerate them. I think, with the introduction of these new panels, which started about a month ago, this will move a little bit faster than at the present moment.

I do not think I want to answer Mrs Motshekga, because she is the MEC. I do not think she wanted an answer, but rather comment on the issues. But I have, to a certain extent, answered her.

The hon Jacobus was commenting on things that ought to be done and that we are going to do together. But, in principle, I think that there are a lot of things that we can and must do together. There has been a big move since 1994 or 1995 when these grants were not there for the African people. Somebody said that they have been increased two or three times from what they were in 1994. But the numbers of people have increased. The very fact that today we talk about 2,1 million children throughout the country who get this grant is an improvement. I, personally, do not think that Government as a whole and any MP should be satisfied with that. There are millions of other children who are entitled to this grant that ought to be receiving it. They do not get this grant, and this is not because they do not want to receive it. Sometimes people do not know about it. When they do know, it is very difficult, as members have been saying, to access this grant. That is why we should work together to ensure that everybody is in the know and that all of us put children first in the work which we are doing.

The second question that I would like to raise very clearly is the issue of children with disabilities in many areas of this country. There are thousands of children who are entitled to this grant who do not know that they are entitled to it, because this grant does not stop when they are seven years old. It continues until they are 18, sometimes even beyond that. That is why we should work as members of Parliament to ensure that those children are registered and that they do receive this grant.

Last, but not least, is something that everybody has been speaking about - the issue of HIV/Aids. It is a reality - all of us agreed on that - and we have to work together. But more emphasis has to be put on children.

The issue of children running around the countryside without anybody to look after them is of concern. All of us as parents, South Africans and responsible citizens ought to look after those children. We have agreed that ``umtwana wami ngumntwana wakho, umntwana wakho ngowami’’ [my child is your child and your child is my child] and that children are everybody’s business. We should put that into reality amongst our people in our villages, in our communities and also on the streets. We should not find children running around Cape Town begging in the streets. We should be able to do something as citizens of Cape Town to ensure that we keep these children in safe places, that they are not abused and that they at least get three meals a day.

I am very pleased to say quite openly and very clearly that we have been working very closely with all the MECs in all provinces to ensure that this does take place. I think those MECs, myself and the Government need everybody’s support. It is our duty. We are all servants of our people. We are all being paid for that and nothing else. We are all driving our Mercedes Benzes and living very nicely, better than before 1994. This is because we have jobs and these jobs are to work for the people. That is what we are paid for and what all of us ought to do. Whether we are councillors, members of Parliament or ordinary public servants - who get paid better than the majority of members of Parliament - we should work well for our people.

If we do that, unite and work together with the nongovernmental organisations, civil society and the faith-based organisations and link up with the private sector, we can make a difference. All of us can make sure that no child goes to bed, as one member said, without a meal, and that no child runs around the streets of Cape Town or Johannesburg without any parent or anybody to look after him or her. These are our children, this is our country and we must make it better than it is today. [Applause.] Debate concluded.

                  PROBATION SERVICES AMENDMENT BILL

            (Consideration of Bill and of Report thereon)

The MINISTER OF SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT: Chairperson and hon members, thank you for the opportunity to address the NCOP on the occasion of the debate on the Probation Services Amendment Bill.

The Bill is another significant milestone in the Government’s effort to transform and further strengthen our country’s criminal justice system. This is underpinned by our request to protect our society from all forms of criminality whilst, at the same time, upholding the rights of children as enshrined in our Constitution. In this regard, the introduction of the amendment to the Probation Services Act, Act 116 of 1991, will go a long way in ensuring the achievement of that objective and fostering an integrated justice system.

The objectives of these amendments are the following: Firstly, to insert definitions relevant to the child and youth care system; secondly, to insert the definition of ``family finder’’ whose main function would be to trace the parents or guardian of a child who is being prosecuted so as to make them available to assist the child in court; thirdly, to introduce assessment, support, referral and mediation services in respect of victims of crime; fourthly, to introduce crime prevention strategies through the provision of early intervention programmes, including diversion services and family group conferencing; fifthly, to provide for the establishment of restorative justice programmes and services as part of appropriate sentencing and diversion options; sixthly, to provide for the reception, assessment and referral of an accused person and the rendering of early intervention services and programmes, the investigation of the circumstances of an accused person and the provision of a pretrial report on the desirability or otherwise of prosecution, and the investigation of the circumstances of convicted persons; eighthly, to substitute the definition of supervision to be the supervising and supervision of an accused, convicted or sentenced person by a probation officer in terms of the provision of any law; ninethly, to provide for appointment and duties of assistant probation officers; and, lastly, to provide for the assessment of every child who is alleged to have committed an offence and who has been arrested as soon as may be reasonably possible after his or her arrest by a probation officer.

Our Constitution requires that every arrested person be brought before court within 48 hours of being arrested. It also provides that a child can only be detained as a measure of last resort. This provision echoes Article 40 of the United Nations’ Convention on the Rights of the Child, which South Africa has ratified.

In line with the Constitution, the Department’s 10-point programme prioritises addressing the problem of children in conflict with the law. The problem of children in conflict with the law is a serious challenge facing the country at this point in time. It requires urgent attention and the involvement of all sectors of our society.

Since 1996, 12 children have died in detention in South Africa. The following children have died in detention. Stephen Dube, aged 11, died in police cells in Waterval, Northern Province, on 18 February 1999. Monica Salfina Mkansi, aged 15, died in the Phalaborwa police cells on 6 December

1. Gert Baartman, aged 15, died in the Fraserburg police station on 16 July 2000. Lebohang James Mofokeng, aged 17, died in the Bethlehem police cells on 8 August 2000. And Richard Armoed, aged 15, died in the Knysna police station on 10 March 2001.

Children who have died in prison are Werner Coetzee, aged 16, who died at Odendaalsrus Prison on 28 May 1999; and Byron Ince, aged 14, who died at the Excelsior Place of Safety on 23 January 2001. Children who died in reform schools are Andre van Zyl Jordaan, aged 17, who died at Porter Reform School on 21 March 1999; Petros Chiloane, aged 17, who died at Ethokhumalo Reform School on 24 January 2000; and Andile Tawule, aged 17, who died at Ethokhumalo Reform School on 12 February last year.

The youth of Africa are not just our future; they are the essence of our present. It is in the youth that our hopes and dreams are invested. It is they who will reap the long-term benefits of the new societies and nations that we are now building. It is they who must be encouraged to fulfil their role in every dimension of the social, economic and political life of our continent.

Currently, there are 2 322 children under the age of 18 awaiting trial in prison, and 1 767 children awaiting trial in social development facilities.

The introduction of this Bill seeks to provide a legislative framework that will further strengthen the department’s initiatives relating to probation services, already undertaken through pilot projects, in order to improve service delivery. The department, with the assistance of donor funding, has started establishing assessment and referral centres for children in conflict with the law, as well as the one-stop justice centre in Port Elizabeth. This centre was established in partnership with the Departments of Safety and Security, Justice and Constitutional Development, and Correctional Services.

Furthermore, other pilot projects were introduced through the appointment of assistant probation officers in the Western Cape, Limpopo and Mpumalanga. At present, we have 60 assistant probation officers in the country, and there are plans to appoint more. These assistant probation officers are involved in monitoring persons placed under house arrest and assessed by probation officers. Between September 1998 and February 2002, 379 children were placed under the care of their parents and under the supervision of probation officers. The progress of these children was monitored by assistant probation officers. The appointment of these assistant probation officers will go a long way in providing a quality service to children in conflict with the law.

The placement of children under the care of their parents and under the supervision of probation officers has cost benefits for the state. On the one hand, it costs an average of R94,60 per day for a child awaiting trial in prison. On the other hand, a child under house arrest costs only R2,69 per day. The added benefit of this programme is that children awaiting trial under the care of their parents and under the supervision of probation officers are provided with a family environment which will enhance their wellbeing.

It should be noted that out of those 379 children, 188 had their cases eventually withdrawn from court. This means that 188 children could have been in prison awaiting trial for a year or longer, have had their lives totally disrupted and their schooling interrupted only to have their charges ultimately withdrawn. The department plans to replicate this programme throughout the country, especially in rural areas where these services are inadequate.

The decision to place a child under the supervision of a probation officer, and monitored by an assistant probation officer, must obviously be carefully weighed up against the concerns for safety of the community, and the process of assessment is essential in this regard. All possible measures need to be found to protect young people from further harm. Whilst holding young people accountable for their actions, it must be ensured that they do not become victims of the system itself.

We are moving from a paradigm of punishment to a paradigm of restorative justice that takes into account social deprivation and immaturity. We cannot afford to let more children die or be brutalised in detention.

This process will require that we work in partnership with families, law- enforcement agencies, courts and, indeed, society as a whole. The passing of the Probation Services Amendment Bill will pave the way for the Child Justice Bill, which was approved by Cabinet in November 2001 and is due to be introduced in Parliament in the near future.

The department is currently involved in an intersectoral process led by the Department of Justice and Constitutional Development to develop a detailed budget and implementation strategy to support the Child Justice Bill. This Bill and the Child Justice Bill will go a long way in ensuring the realisation of our goal of putting children first.

The Probation Services Amendment Bill will provide legal certainty to innovative practitioners who have been doing their best to provide a progressive and effective service. It will help to ensure equality of service provision so that all children in South Africa, as well as adults requiring assistance, may be provided with services of a high quality. We must work together to ensure a South Africa fit for children. [Applause.]

Ms L JACOBUS: Chairperson, as a person who is committed to building and strengthening families I will be very brief. I would not want to be responsible for the breaking up of families, because members were not able to make their flights back to their provinces to spend time with their families. [Interjections.] [Laughter.]

It has always been a priority of this Government to make the children of this country our number one priority. This amending Bill demonstrates that commitment. Through this amending Bill, probation officers will be obliged to assess arrested children as soon as is reasonably possible so that the children’s time in jail awaiting trial is reduced to the absolute minimum.

At the same time, with our committee amendments we have effected, the role of assistant probation officer is clearly identified in relation to that of the probation officer. Both these categories have pivotal responsibilities in the field of treatment and rehabilitation of offenders - in this case, minors - the care and treatment of victims of crime, and working with families and communities.

We recognise that there are too few of these dedicated workers. In fact, there are only 685 of them, we were told, in the whole of South Africa who have currently to take care of the over 4 000 children under the age of 18 awaiting trial in prison and secure-care facilities.

This is definitely a human resource backlog that all the departments dealing with the needs of children need to address and correct as soon as possible. It becomes increasingly urgent when we realise that 12 children have died in detention in South Africa since 1996 - the Minister also spoke about that. These were 12 young lives that we could ill afford to lose.

Another way in which we demonstrate putting children first is by ensuring that the families of children in conflict with the law are closely involved in the legal and rehabilitation processes. This is so that even when families fail to appear in court for whatever reason, the state will ensure that a family finder will trace the parents or guardian and bring them to court in order to assist the child while his or her case is processed through the justice system.

In the select committee we were all very impressed by the SA Police Service’s commitment to ensuring that children are taken to the nearest assessor as soon as they are able to, by whatever means at their disposal. We listened to the Police Service articulating their shortage of staff and the other problems and challenges that they were facing. They are as committed as we are to protecting children from the harsh realities that face them while they are in the holding cells.

When the principal Act was passed in 1991, the primary focus of this Act was to provide for the establishment and implementation of programmes aimed at the rendering of assistance to and treatment of minors in conflict with the law.

After watching the Special Assignment programme which all of us are aware of on Tuesday, highlighting the corruption at Grootvlei maximum in Bloemfontein and the subsequent media coverage it received and still receives, one wonders if we have gone far enough to protect our children in jail. Therefore, this Bill could not have come at a more opportune time.

I am happy that at least those alleged offenders within Correctional Services have been suspended with immediate effect. Clearly, we need to do more to protect those children awaiting trial in prisons and secure-care facilities, because offences are committed against them by the very people who are supposed to be caring for them and protecting them.

I think that the most difficult thing to accept, besides the general corruption practised by the officials from the Department of Correctional Services, was the fact that these warders would fetch young children from the juvenile section’s cells and sell them to be abused by the already convicted older prisoners. This kind of behaviour will never be accepted in South Africa, and the harshest of punishments should be imposed against those who abuse the trust we have placed in them to protect our children. During the deliberations on the Probation Services Amendment Bill all parties were in total agreement with the additional amendments we made to the Bill. We therefore place the Bill before the House for adoption. [Applause.]

Ms E C GOUWS: Chairperson, the chairperson of my committee set the example of speed. I just want to ask my colleagues to stick to the debate on children and to what we are busy talking about. This other business of underestimating our intelligence is becoming rather irritating.

The Probation Services Act, Act 116 of 1991, provides for probation services to be rendered to accused and convicted persons in the criminal justice system. An important element of the department’s plan deals with children in conflict with the law. The practice of children being assessed by probation officers after they have been arrested has a bearing on how the matter should be dealt with. Diversion of children away from the criminal justice system into suitable programmes is, in itself, an innnovation that has developed in the last decade in our country. In 2001, approximately 15 000 children were diverted into programmes. At this point in time there are 2 322 children under the age of 18 in prison awaiting trial, and 1 767 children awaiting trial in social development facilities.

The Constitution guarantees the rights of children, and one of these rights is only to be imprisoned or detained as a last resort. One of the reasons for this is to prevent the contamination of first-time offenders by other, more hardened, criminals.

The Bill seeks to achieve early intervention and assessment of juvenile criminals with a view to breaking the cycle of criminality. My party welcomes the amendments, but we have a problem with the practicality of giving effect to the provisions of the new clause 4B, which provides:

Every child who is alleged to have committed an offence and who has been arrested shall, as soon as may be reasonably possible after his or her arrest, be assessed by a probation officer. Do we have the staff to implement this? The department says that there is currently 60 probation officers, with 82 probation officers employed full- time in a management capacity. We are worried that staff shortages will mean that assessments will take longer than 48 hours. If a child is released without assessment or detained for a longer period, it will expose them to precisely the criminal elements that this Bill seeks to avoid.

In the words of the hon Minister, let us believe that the Probation Services Amendment Bill will provide legal certainty to innovative practitioners who have been doing their best to provide a progressive and effective service, and that all children, as well as adults requiring assistance, may be provided with services of a high quality.

My party supports the Bill. [Applause.]

Mr F ADAMS: Chairperson, hon Minister and hon members, I do not know if I should respond to my colleague from the DP, but I just want to say that instead of criticising, we should help the hon Minister, the Government and our President. Every one of us has a responsibility to improve the plight of our people, as our hon Minister has already stated. We have an Afrikaans saying which goes: ``Benoude katte maak benoude spronge en benoude geluide’’ [They are like cats on a hot tin roof.]

This country has the responsibility of protecting its children against a dark future of crime and resultant imprisonment, which can be the start of a vicious cycle from which some people never escape. The New NP believes that a big part of this decay can be contributed to the breakdown in the family system, partly because parents simply fail to fulfil their parental duties and partly because the economy of the day is conducive to the creation of a generation of youth that are of the opinion that it is acceptable to commit certain types of crime.

I believe that we all agree that the transformation of the child and youth care system is long overdue. Although the Bill before us today only seeks to act as an interim measure to facilitate this transformation process, any steps to address the problem of child and youth care should be welcome.

We believe that the 48-hour mandatory restriction period for assessment of every arrested child should go a long way in speeding up the process of either getting the child back to his or her family or setting in motion the assessment and referral process. The Bill makes provision for the speedy investigation of the circumstances of the accused and the provision of a pretrial report. Identifying a family finder, whose main function would be to trace the parents or guardian of the child who is being prosecuted, strengthens the whole process.

In die finale instansie verwelkom die Nuwe NP die instelling van ‘n advieskomitee oor proefdienste wat die Minister kan adviseer oor proefdienste in die land. Hierdie liggaam sal hopelik daartoe bydra dat die proses voortdurend aangepas sal word om te handel met die nuutste behoeftes wat mag ontstaan. Sodoende sal op die bes moontlike wyse gehandel word met kinders, sodat hulle so gou as moontlik hul plek as gerehabiliteerde lede van die samelewing kan inneem.

Die Nuwe NP steun die Wetsontwerp op Proefdienste. [Applous.] (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)

[In the final analysis the New NP welcomes the introduction of a probation advisory committee that can advise the Minister with regard to probation services in the country. It is hoped that this body will contribute to the process for dealing with the latest needs that may arise being adapted continually. In so doing the children will receive the best possible treatment, so that they could take their places as rehabilitated members of society as expediently as possible.

The New NP supports the Probation Services Amendment Bill. [Applause.]]

Mr B J TOLO: Chairperson, it is a well-known fact that our Constitution ranks amongst the best in the world. It dwarfs and puts to shame many of the constitutions of countries that have had more than 200 years of experience in democracy. What makes it outstanding, amongst other things, is the Bill of Rights enshrined in it. This Bill of Rights is unambiguous on the rights of children. Section 28(1)(b) says that every child has the right to ``family care or parental care, or to appropriate alternative care when removed from the family environment’’. Section 28(1)(g) says, in part, that every child has the right not to be detained. It then goes on to give the conditions under which a child be detained.

The apartheid regime stands accused of having neglected the rights of children. In their many years of misrule in this country, that regime never dreamt for a moment of developing young people to their fullest potential. Our children were exposed to the rigours of life at a very tender age. Children were thrown into the deep end of life without being prepared. This resulted in a situation in which some young boys and girls could not resist becoming criminals. Therefore, this means that the apartheid regime made our young children lumpen. As a new Government, we cannot and should not leave the protection and development of our children to chance, hence the constitutional requirement to protect our young men and women.

Our criminal justice system today is not based on vengeance and condemnation, but on humane principles that seek to correct and rehabilitate. The Probation Services Act of 1991 sought to implement programmes aimed at combating crime and to render assistance to certain people involved in crime, amongst other things. That Act also provided for the appointment of probation officers, whose function was to investigate the circumstances of an accused, with a view to reporting to the police officer or presiding magistrate the possible treatment of and or committal of the accused to an institution.

The present situation, given the policy choices of this Government, has found the above Act to be inadequate. To be able to fulfil the imperatives of the new situation, a need arose, therefore, to amend the Probation Services Act, hence the Probation Services Amendment Act we are discussing here today.

This Bill, amongst other things, provides for the restoration of justice programmes for victims of crime who have hitherto always been disadvantaged. There was no provision to restore the situation that prevailed before the crime was committed. This system seeks to provide a legal basis to restore the situation of the victim before the crime was committed. In our view, this will go a long way in appeasing victims of crime and enabling them to reconcile with the offenders so that they can both live in harmony once more.

This Bill also provided for the appointment of assistant probation officers. We indicated earlier what the functions of the probation officers were. Owing to objective conditions on the ground, a need arose for probation officers to be helped. To do so, this Bill seeks to legalise the appointment of assistant probation officers. This will go a long way in enhancing the work of probation officers. It will make them more effective and efficient in their work, which will be to the advantage of young boys and girls who, from time to time, find themselves on the wrong side of the law.

The department has told us that there have already been pilot projects in this respect and that they have yielded tremendous results. The whole idea is to act with speed to prevent children from going to jail and to find alternatives for them. The supreme law of our country demands of us to do that, and this has the added advantage of alleviating the problem of overcrowding in our prisons. These assistant probation officers will also be responsible for family finders. Many children are arrested and, in some cases, even sentenced, without the knowledge of their families. Sometimes families, especially in the rural areas, do know about the arrest of their children, but, owing to distances, cannot make it to the court. The assistant probation officers will do the noble job of looking for these family members and also assist them in getting to court so that if the magistrate puts the child under family supervision, these family members are there themselves to understand the conditions under which the supervision has to take place. These officers will also supervise the probationer to check that the conditions of probation are adhered to.

In conclusion, we want to say that this Bill is not a universal remedy for our children who commit crime, but we have no doubt in our minds that it will go a long way in addressing the problem. This will be the case until the introduction of the Child Justice Bill by Parliament. The hon Minister has already referred to this Bill. It is only when that Bill becomes law that we can safely say that we are dealing decisively with the problem.

The ANC supports this Bill. [Applause.]

The MINISTER OF SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT: Chairperson, I want to thank hon members for the contribution they have made and the advice they have given to the department in the process of dealing with this Bill, and also for ensuring that it is accepted and becomes part and parcel of the law. We will be putting in place one of the last building blocks of our legislation in our whole system to ensure that we have some legal basis to guide and monitor our children whenever they have transgressed the law. I want to promise this House that we will work with them right throughout in ensuring that our children receive the necessary support and guidance, legally and otherwise, in our country. [Applause.]

Debate concluded.

Bill, subject to proposed amendments, agreed to in accordance with section 75 of the Constitution.

The Council adjourned at 12:31. ____

            ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS

TABLINGS:

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces:

Papers:

1. The Minister for Agriculture and Land Affairs:

 Annual Report and Financial Statements of the Bala Farms (Pty) Ltd  for
 the years ended 31 December 2000 and 31 December  2001,  including  the
 Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements for the years
 ended 31 December 2000 and 31 December 2001 [RP 76-2002].