National Council of Provinces - 26 September 2002
THURSDAY, 26 SEPTEMBER 2002 __
PROCEEDINGS OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
____
The Council met at 15:02
The Chairperson took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayers or meditation.
ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS - see col 0000.
NOTICES OF MOTION
Mr K D S DURR: Madam Chair, I give notice that at the next sitting of the Council, I shall move:
That the Council -
(1) notes -
(a) the recent poll by the Mass Public Opinion Institute of Zimbabwe
which polled the views of Zimbabweans on the presidency of
Robert Mugabe, and on the desirability of a rerun of the last,
doubtful general election;
(b) that the survey indicates that 65% of respondents polled were in
favour of President Mugabe renouncing his post as President and
of his immediate retirement, and that 44,9% of respondents
indicated that they desired a rerun of the past election;
(c) these expressions of the Zimbabwean people and endorses the need
for proper democratic values to find expression in Zimbabwe; and
(d) the speech of former President Bill Clinton in Abuja recently
where he noted that Africa has paid a tremendously high economic
price for the South African Government's policies on Zimbabwe
and stands to lose still more if it continues, thereby
effectively stunting the NEPAD initiative; and
(2) in the light of the above trends, and in the face of economic collapse and starvation in Zimbabwe, calls upon the South African Government to drastically and urgently review its policy on Zimbabwe and to make this public.
Mr N M RAJU: Madam Chair, I give notice that at the next sitting of the Council, I shall move:
That the Council -
(1) notes with extreme disquiet that the ANC adopted storm-trooper tactics of harassment and intimidation against the DA at the Clermont by-election in Durban yesterday;
(2) further notes that the ANC mobs -
(a) blocked a street to prevent a DA motorcade from passing through;
(b) ordered a DA canvasser to appear before a kangaroo disciplinary
committee;
(c) refused a DA canvasser access to certain streets; and
(d) stabbed a DA supporter wearing a DA T-shirt (almost fatally) who
is presently lying critically ill in hospital;
(3) recognises that the ANC’s avowed commitment to democratic principles of freedom of speech, freedom of movement and political tolerance vanishes when it begins to lose support and believes that the ANC tactics are a portent of worse things to follow.
[Interjections.]
NATIONAL LOTTERY BOARD
(Draft Resolution)
Dr P J C NEL: Mev die Voorsitter, ek stel sonder kennisgewing voor:
Dat die Raad kennis neem dat-
(1) die Nuwe NP en die gemeenskap van die Republiek van Suid-Afrika met groot kommer kennis geneem het van die besluit van die Raad op Nasionale Loterye om op 11 November 2002 reeds te begin met ‘n daaglikse loterytrekking;
(2) die sinnelose besluit geneem is ondanks geweldige teenkanting van die gemeenskap, kerke en ander organisasies, byvoorbeeld die Nasionale Verbruikersforum, wat almal bekommerd is oor die vernietigende uitwerking wat hierdie verdere uitmergeling van die publiek van Suid- Afrika op die armstes van armes gaan hê;
(3) die Nuwe NP van mening is dat hierdie onverantwoordelike besluit van die Raad op Nasionale Loterye kan lei tot veel meer ellende as wat hondewedrenne in die verlede oor veral die arm gemeenskappe gebring het en waarop toe later ‘n totale verbod geplaas is deur wetgewing;
(4) die lotery in totaliteit hoegenaamd nie aan die behoeftes van die armstes van armes voldoen nie en die armes se sogenaamde droom eerder omskep het in ‘n nagmerrie; en
(5) die Nuwe NP die Regering versoek om die implementering van die daaglikse Lotto-trekkings nie toe te laat nie, al sou dit beteken dat nuwe wetgewing moet kom. (Translation of Afrikaans draft resolution follows.)
[Dr P J C NEL: Chairperson, I move without notice:
That the Council notes that -
(1) the New National Party and the community of the Republic of South Africa has noted with great concern the decision of the national Lottery Board to start as soon as 11 November 2002 with a daily lottery draw;
(2) this senseless decision was taken in spite of tremendous opposition on the part of the community, churches and other organisations, for example the South African Consumers’ Forum, who are all concerned about the devastating effect which this further fleecing of the public of South Africa will have on the poorest of the poor;
(3) the New NP is of the opinion that this irresponsible decision of the national Lottery Board could result in far more suffering than that which dog racing inflicted upon particularly the poor communities, which was later totally prohibited by legislation;
(4) the lottery in totality does not in the least meet the needs of the poorest of the poor and has instead changed the so-called dream of the poorest of the poor into a nightmare; and
(5) the New NP requests the Government not to allow the implementation of the daily Lotto draws even if that would necessitate drafting new legislation.]
The CHAIPERSON OF THE NCOP: Order! Is there an objection to the motion? There is an objection. The motion therefore becomes notice of a motion.
CRIME STATISTICS
(Draft Resolution)
Mr G A LUCAS: Madam Chair, I move without notice:
That the Council-
(1) congratulates the Minister of Safety and Security, Charles Nqakula, on the release of the latest crime statistics in South Africa;
(2) notes that these statistics confirm the decline and stabilisation in serious crime levels as reported in the SA Police Service’s annual report which has been tabled in Parliament earlier this week;
(3) further notes that these stabilisations and declines were achieved within two years since the implementation of the national crime- combating strategy, Operation Crackdown;
(4) appreciates the sterling efforts of every honest policeman and policewoman, despite the many odds and obstacles that they encounter on a daily basis; and
(5) acknowledges that these statistics are indeed concrete proof of the seriousness with which this ANC-led Government views crime in our country. The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Order! Is there an objection to the motion? There is an objection. The motion therefore becomes notice of a motion.
DEATH SENTENCE OF AMINA LAWAL
(Draft Resolution)
Ms C-S BOTHA: Voorsitter, ek stel sonder kennisgewing voor:
Dat die Raad -
(1) kennis neem van die doodsvonnis deur steniging wat gevel is op Amina Lawal van Nigerië, wat buite die huwelik geboorte geskenk het aan ‘n kind;
(2) hierdie vonnis sonder enige voorbehoude ten sterkste verwerp;
(3) geen regverdiging vir hierdie vonnis vind in die President se woorde
dat daar te doen is met 'n komplekse gemeenskap'' nie, of dat
daar groter uitdagings in Nigerië bestaan’’ nie; en
(4) vra dat alle vroue en mans in Suid-Afrika wat verbind is tot basiese menseregte, hierdie vonnis met alle middele tot hul beskikking beveg. (Translation of Afrikaans draft resolution follows.)
[Ms C BOTHA: Chairperson, I move without notice:
That the Council -
(1) takes note of the death sentence by way of stoning which was pronounced upon Amina Lawal of Nigeria, who gave birth to a child out of wedlock;
(2) unreservedly rejects this sentence in the strongest terms;
(3) finds no justification for this sentence in the President’s words to
the effect that we are dealing with a complex community'' or that
there are greater challenges in Nigeria’’; and
(4) urges all women and men in South Africa who are committed to basic human rights to fight against this sentence with all the means at their disposal.]
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Is there any objection to the motion? There is an objection.
Mr G A LUCAS: Just for clarity’s sake, Chairperson. There has been a similar motion at some stage in this Council before.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: There has been a motion of that nature moved in the House. We will certainly look at the record and deal with it at the next sitting. I would like to ask the staff to check that up in the course of this session, so that we could return to this motion to decide it. We will return to that later.
ATHLETICS WORLD CUP
(Draft Resolution)
Mr D M KGWARE: Madam Chair, I move without notice:
That the Council -
(1) lauds the contributions of South African gold medal winners, high jumper Hestrie Cloete and pole vaulter Ockert Brits, at the World Cup athletics championships that was held in Madrid, Spain, over the weekend;
(2) notes that their performances proved crucial in ensuring that Team Africa won a unique fourth World Cup, despite the absence of star African athletes who opted instead to participate in European events for greater financial rewards;
(3) further notes that this victory is testimony that as Africans, black and white united, we are indeed a force to be reckoned with regardless of the challenges before us; and
(4) expresses the hope that this World Cup triumph and the publicity it has generated on the continent, will go a long way towards contributing to the African Renaissance and forging African solidarity.
Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.
DURBAN EXTRAVAGANZA
(Draft Resolution)
Mr P A MATTHEE: Madam Chair, I move without notice:
That the Council -
(1) takes note of the first Celebrate Durban extravaganza which was launched last Friday;
(2) also notes that - (a) the focus during the week-long festival is on fun - lots of it - arts and culture, sport and business opportunities;
(b) business and political representatives from Durban's five sister
cities - Leeds, Rotterdam, Chicago, Guangzhou in China and
Bulawayo in Zimbabwe - are all meeting in Durban with their
Durban counterparts to continue developing their mutually
beneficial relations;
(c) the theme of the festival is "eThekwini: Where the World Meets";
and
(d) Durban has adopted a special catchy slogan, namely Sharp Zinto -
often used by the young to suggest enthusiasm - which means that
something is spot-on, Zinto coming from the Zulu word ``izinto''
meaning ``things'', thus Sharp Zinto meaning ``good things'';
(3) congratulates Mayor Obed Mlaba and Durban on this positive initiative which will bring in new business, boost educational, cultural and sporting links and benefit many thousands of lives; and
(4) encourages other South African cities to follow the example set by Durban in coming up with initiatives which will bring in new business and boost their international links with a view to improving the lives of their citizens.
Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.
Mr A E VAN NIEKERK: Chairperson, just on a point of clarity: Is it parliamentary to allow free promotions in this House? [Laughter.]
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Is it parliamentary? As far as I am aware of the Rules, I do not recall a prohibition, but I would believe that members are not here to train as advertisers in this House. Marketing may not be a strength. I also must comment that, given our debate recently on multilingualism, it appears the hon Matthee is promoting tsotsi fanagalo! [Laughter.]
Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.
THE PRESIDENT'S ROLE IN NEPAD
(Draft Resolution)
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE COUNCIL: Madam Chair, I move without notice:
That the Council -
(1) recognises the leading role played by our President in giving prominence and leadership to the Nepad initiative;
(2) recognises his sterling contribution and success in mobilising nations in the United Nations to support the Nepad initiative, which is aimed at the eradication of poverty and the enhancement of the quality of the lives of African citizens;
(3) notes with pride the establishment of an African identity;
(4) recognises the perennial leadership of our President, former President Mandela and Deputy President in their initiatives to bring peace and stability to the areas of conflict in the continent;
(5) further notes the role of our President in promoting multi-lateralism and his passionate commitment to seeking dialogue and peaceful solutions to conflict; and
(6) therefore commends the President on his eminent leadership, which has made South Africa an important nation in the world, and urges our President to continue in the same vein.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Order! Is there any objection to that motion?
Ms C BOTHA: Madam Chair, I would like to propose an amendment.
In the light of the above, I wish to have it added that it is extremely regrettable that the President’s attitude towards Zimbabwe is having a very negative influence on Nepad worldwide. [Interjections.]
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Order! The motion was proposed by Mr Surty. We will ask Mr Surty whether he has any objections.
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE COUNCIL: I certainly do, Chairperson.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: We therefore proceed to the motion as read by Mr Surty. Is there any objection to that motion? There is an objection. The motion will therefore become a notice of motion. HERITAGE DAY CELEBRATIONS
(Draft Resolution)
Rev M CHABAKU: Chaiperson, I move without notice:
That the Council-
(1) notes with concern and dismay the sparse attendance at Heritage celebrations in the country by many South Africans of Caucasian backgrounds;
(2) notes that they do not attend even when events are brought to their area;
(3) asks for how long do we have to cringe, beg, cajole and sacrifice to bring them and their children to the new South Africa where they are needed, welcomed and have a right to be; and
(4) resolves to seek ways -
(a) of bottling up resentment at their absence; and
(b) of encouraging their future participation and inclusion in
future events.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Is there any objection to that motion? An amendment?
Mr A E VAN NIEKERK: Chairperson, I would like to move as an amendment: That, in paragraph (1), ``some’’ be inserted before ‘‘Heritage’’.
Rev M CHABAKU: Hon member, I heard your amendment. I reluctantly accept it, even though, with your permission, I may add something that I forgot to mention. There is a small number of South Africans of Caucasian backgrounds that attend. I would acknowledge that.
That, in paragraph (1), “some” be inserted before “Heritage”.
Amendment agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.
Motion, as amended, agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution, namely: That the Council -
(1) notes with concern and dismay the sparse attendance at some
Heritage celebrations in the country by many South Africans of
Caucasian backgrounds;
(2) notes that they do not attend even when events are brought to
their area;
(3) asks for how long do we have to cringe, beg, cajole and
sacrifice to bring them and their children to the new South Africa
where they are needed, welcomed and have a right to be; and
(4) resolves to seek ways -
(a) of bottling up resentment at their absence; and
(b) encouraging their future participation and inclusion in
future events.
APPOINTMENT OF M L MUSHWANA AS PUBLIC PROTECTOR
(Draft Resolution)
Mr A E VAN NIEKERK: Chairperson, I move without notice:
That the Council -
(1) congratulates the Deputy Chairperson of the Council, Mr Lawrence Mushwana, following the decision by the members of the National Assembly today to recommend him to the President of South Africa for appointment to the high office of Public Protector;
(2) notes that Mr Mushwana has proved beyond all doubt that he is a man of integrity and that he meets all the requirements of the Constitution for this position; and
(3) wishes him well.
Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Order! Although I have to put the motion, the House will understand that I do not support it. [Laughter.] Is there any objection to the motion? [Laughter.] There is no objection and the motion is therefore agreed to. It is a motion of congratulations on a recommendation, as I understand it, which is all that the National Assembly has at the moment.
RACISM AND UNFAIR DISTRIBUTION OF RESOURCES IN THE POLICE FORCE OF THE VAAL AREA
(Draft Resolution)
Ms J N VILAKAZI: Chairperson, I move without notice: That the Council -
(1) notes the racial tensions and allegations of discrimination within the police force in the Vaal area;
(2) further notes that allegations of racism and the unfair distribution of resources by the Vaalrand police area office have led to divisions among the senior police personnel in the area;
(3) believes that the seriousness of the matter led to the Ministry calling for an exhaustive investigation after the Gauteng Department of Safety and Security revealed that township police stations were underresourced compared to those in the white areas; and
(4) therefore commends the Minister for working hard to fight racial tensions and unfair discrimination in our country.
Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.
MANUAL COUNTING OF VOTES
(Draft Resolution)
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE COUNCIL: Chairperson, I move without notice:
That the Council -
(1) notes that the arithmetical challenges of counting votes are not unique to this Council, the whips in the other House are equally challenged in terms of counting, as was evidenced earlier this afternoon;
(2) expresses its profound gratitude for the electronic system which enables efficient counting; and
(3) wishes that the electronic system be corrected swiftly in the other House to assist the whips who, like us, were not very comfortable in this very challenging task.
Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.
STATE INFORMATION TECHNOLOGY AGENCY AMENDMENT BILL
(Consideration of Bill and of Report of Select Committee on Local
Government and Administration thereon)
The MINISTER FOR THE PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION: Chairperson, I would like to thank this House for this opportunity and it is quite a pleasure to come to a place where there is a good system, especially a system of such levels of technology. It clearly shows that this House will support the State Information Technology Agency Amendment Bill because it will clearly ensure that Sita also plays a role in assisting the National Assembly through procurement to get its act together around the IT requirements there.
This afternoon we are going to discuss the Sita Amendment Bill and we will deal with and reflect on the challenges that were there in the area of information technology across Government as a whole; secondly, I will reflect on the nature of interventions that we have made since the introduction of the Sita Act itself; thirdly, I will reflect on the changes, on the amendment to the legislation that is required in order to align the restructuring, which had taken place within Sita itself, to the legislation; and then finally, I will just briefly look at some implications of this amendment.
We are all aware of the Presidential Review Commission Report that highlighted, prior to 1999, some of the complexities in the area of the information technology environment within Government. Among the major issues that were identified then - and many of these issues still apply today - is the fact that Government without doubt is the biggest spender on IT in South Africa. When we looked at the return on investment or the value added to Government services, as well as the value to citizens in our country as whole, it was difficult, if not impossible, to measure. Departments were operating in an IT vacuum, there was duplication of applications and systems; the benefits of co-ordination, co-operation and the opportunity to share from experience were wasted.
In short, we did not utilise economies of scale as required with respect to IT. The departments, both nationally and provincially, also acted in an autonomous manner and we saw major fragmentation there. They did not take into consideration the information about persons, either individual or legal, and there was no consideration that we needed interoperability: that information needed to be shared between departments across provinces and national Government and so forth.
The systems developed by departments did not allow for the easy interchange of information. I am sure that as we look at dealing with the problem in the NA, we are going to allow for interchangeability between the systems that there are in the NCOP and NA, so that we can learn from this House’s passing this piece of legislation as well as the Chamber’s state-of-the-art ICT equipment. We shall see that we take that into account. One of the most important considerations in a Government IT system is to ensure that it conforms to the security standards required by Government, because we do not want illegal access to our information as well as to our systems.
The current Act does not allow Sita to address these problems in a streamlined and focused way and hence we needed to do something about it. An in-depth analysis of the structure, task and organisation of Sita was undertaken during the year 2000. We arrived at the conclusion that the structure of Sita had to be aligned, not only to meet the demands of its clients, but also to address the shortcomings that I referred to earlier, that were clearly identified by the Presidential Review Commission Report.
The restructuring of Sita without amending the current Act would be a waste of taxpayers’ money and I do not think that any of us who are serving in this Parliament would want to let that happen, and we also do not want to have a waste of human resources and effort. Sita has to be empowered to act firmly with the necessary flexibility and freedom to achieve the IT House of Values and that is, user and citizen convenience through increased productivity at minimum cost and maximum efficiency. It must be based on the three pillars of security, interoperability and elimination of duplication, and achieving economies of scales.
This house of values had to be built on the foundation of a very highly skilled core of performance-oriented personnel. Today I would like to emphasise that the current Act calls for a forced approach where departments have no options except as to when they would like to join and partake in Sita. It also dermacates the Government’s IT domain as the monopolistic playing field of Sita with no alternatives for participating departments. In the amending Bill we changed that approach somewhat. So in areas such as transversal systems, systems that are common across Government, we want to ensure that all departments must participate, and we are unapologetic about that.
With regard to specific systems and applications, that support the core activities of departments where necessary, should enter into strategic partnerships with the industry so that we could meet the requirements of Government and the broader citizenry of South Africa. But we also want Sita to be able to do more. In the Amendment Bill, it has been mandated to become the central procurement agency for IT goods and services in Government. This has been agreed on within Government and with National Treasury. This applies irrespective of whether these services or goods are mandatory transversal or optional departmental specific applications and systems. During the acquisition and procurement process, Sita has to certify systems in terms of interoperability, ie whether they can talk to one another.
Secondly, they need to evaluate and certify the services and goods in terms of compliance to the accepted security standards applicable to Government Information Systems, and they also need to identify possible duplications and combine requirements for procurement through the co-ordination of the procurement and acquisition needs of Government departments. This will enable Sita to negotiate maximum discounts and, mind you, they do not need to declare them. It is only us who need to declare them, but they can negotiate maximum discounts and achieve economies of scale through the leverage of the buying muscle of Government.
The amending Bill will also allow Sita to restructure and streamline its organisation and processes to meet the challenges of the next decades without neglecting those founding departments - the founding members that set up Sita. Today, as we seek to broaden the base of economic activity, we also acknowledge that Government has a critical role in the development and expansion of the capacity of emerging and existing black IT enterprises. This Bill will provide the way to allow this to happen; to allow the clear impact that Sita has on the broader economy to actually impact on emerging businesses to participate in the lucrative Government IT market, as well as providing opportunities for such companies in all our provinces to participate in the provision of services.
This House is concerned with the provinces and their interests. The amendments will bring direct benefits to the provinces in terms of ensuring that they receive the benefit of Government IT services. The savings through the buying power of Sita and the IT Acquisition Centre will ensure both economies of scale and that the best deals being negotiated on behalf of one department, whether provincial or national, will accrue to other departments requiring the same goods and services. We will be able to ensure that Government and its departments do not become the dumping ground for obsolete technology that has been rejected by another department who saw it as obsolete, or even the dumping ground of IT companies - big companies who think that this is the place where they can try to make a fast buck.
This amending Bill also requires that regulations are put in place so that when purchases are made, consideration is given to suppliers in the provinces where the services are required. So, it is not going to take business away from the provinces. It is going to ensure that it does happen there. We should also state that Sita operates in a dynamic environment where technology matures and becomes obsolete in no time, in a matter of three to five years. To run such a company that deals with a fast-changing environment, we need the board to be strengthened and expanded.
Through this expansion and strengthening, we feel that certain skills need to be accommodated as we appoint nonexecutive directors. We will ensure that we bring, through the expanded numbers, skills that may well currently be missing and that we need on the board. Furthermore, to ensure that Sita remains competitive, the Act is being amended to ensure adequate consultation on the cost of services on the one hand, and on the other, allowing departments a choice in terms of successfully contracting at reasonable market rates. Like any provider of goods and services, Government must continually seek ways to add value to the product it provides. Sita as an agency provides that product to Government, a product that enhances many services and products that each Government department provides to its clients base - the people of South Africa.
We hence want to place before this House today a Bill that seeks to; enhance and improve, and to build on the lessons that we have learnt one that increases efficiency and effectiveness, and ensures the rendering of state-of-the-art services. The adoption of this Bill by Parliament as a whole will herald the beginning of a new era that allows Sita to become a true partner in improving Government operations through enabling world- class information technology systems. I would like hon members to bear in mind that it will also be allowing us to build that in South Africa as a country.
It is fitting that we deal with this amending Bill in this House immediately after we have hosted the Summit on Sustainable Development because the use of IT services by Government is a core component in providing integrated and efficient services. It is also a service that tries to eliminate waste and duplication; a service that ensures that the different spheres of Government, different departments and institutions know what is happening and are able to share that information and knowledge that they have. It is also to ensure that services reach everyone, those in the most, remote parts of our country as well as those in the urban centres, because through Sita and the services it should facilitate, we are going to ensure that we use ICT to close the digital divide and to take forward sustainability in development. [Applause.]
Mr B J MKHALIPHI: Chairperson, hon Minister and hon members, in discussing a short but intensely technical Bill like this, one can foresee a situation in which we may end up repeating ourselves. Therefore I am resorting to plan B. [Interjections.] The amendment of the State Information Technology Agency Act of 1998 was necessitated by a number of factors. I will highlight a few of these. Firstly, there were the findings and recommendations of the Presidential Review Commission of 1999. Secondly, there was the realisation that Sita could not and should not be expected to do everything in Government’s IT business and remain effective, efficient and competitive. Thirdly, there was a need to allow Sita formally, by way of legislation, to focus on the entire business of Government’s information technology central acquisition as a formal business with subsidiaries.
In order to enable Sita to stay focused and competitive and to retain its primary mandate in all respects, a guiding philosophy was developed.
It is this philosophy that will guide Sita in deciding on the compulsory and/or optional IT services that it will render to public institutions. This philosophy is elaborated on in detail in the drastic transformation of the Sita Act of 1998, as stipulated in clause 5 of this Bill. This is the very clause that has sparked off an intense debate in the committee deliberations, resulting in extended sessions, but thanks to the commitment of the officials of the department - I see only one of them here - especially the directors of Sita, and the dedication of the committee members and the Chief Whip, we were able to deal with those issues which initially seemed contentious.
Regarding the operation of a private telecommunications network by Sita, we are satisfied that this action will not adversely affect the terrain of the present service providers since there is legislation in place to safeguard their interests.
Despite this assurance, the situation would have been been clearer if the independent regulator had given that assurance, especially when one bears in mind that an eminent second operator is about to come on board. We, as provincial delegates will be looking forward with keen interest to seeing how Sita executes its broadened business, how it reaches out to the provinces and especially how it serves local government, which by Sita’s own admission, is a glaring omission at this stage.
We are however, very optimistic that our municipalities will not be left out since our hon Minister is on record as being a proponent, if not the initiator, of a process of seamless government.
Having considered the present business of Sita and the necessity of this amendment before us, I have no doubt that the Bill is desirable to further enhance service delivery to the broader public. [Applause.]
Ms C S BOTHA: Chairperson, may I, even in the absence of the department, thank them for a particularly good briefing when they presented the Bill to the committee. The DA concurs fully with the objects of the Bill, which is the improvement of service delivery to the public through the provision of information technology and information services to departments and organs of state.
Even though the centralisation we see in the amendments are still problematic, these can be justified, particularly on the grounds of economies of scale. There is also a refreshing recognition of the need to create partnerships with existing service providers instead of reinventing the wheel in every instance.
Much of modern day business and administration is dependent on the speedy spread of information on a national and international basis. Very important for the success of such systems is the seamless interface of technology or as we say, the ability of computers to talk to one another. The justice system is a case in point. By having access to the Internet, for example, prosecutors will not only be able to network with one another, but also keep up to date with the latest judgements. With access to basic equipment such as computers, the opportunities for departments such as the police to be fully connected countrywide has obvious advantages.
When one takes into account, however, that the walkie-talkie system which the police use for communication is constantly not in operation, because there are no funds for repairs, it becomes quite clear that the supply of an information network is only the beginning of a process. The most important part will be to see to it that it actually works. This means that Sita will only be effective if it is properly staffed, trained, serviced and monitored. The whole purpose of combining the state information service in a compatible network will also fail if the provision and maintenance of transversal information systems are not followed through.
In the press this morning I saw that the SA Speakers’ Forum signed a R16,6 million contract with the AST consortium to supply Parliament and the nine provincial legislatures with computers and software. It was signed by the National Assembly Speaker, Dr Frene Ginwala and AST executive director, John Ramatsui. One’s immediate reaction is to ask whether these computers and software will be compatible with the systems which will be prescribed by Sita.
One also wonders how costly it is going to be to marry all the diverse existing systems which are already in operation, some of which came into being only very recently, such as the system used by the Free State health department and the health information system in Limpopo.
Under the duties and powers of the agency, clause 7(3) states that despite any other law to the contrary, every department must procure all information technology goods or services through the agency. This should be of great concern to the provinces, despite the reassurances of the Minister, because of the increased opportunity created for procurement centralisation. Although we were told by the department that the the infotech acquisition centre is not a tender board, but will only set the standards for a procurement centrally, we could easily fall into the trap of directing acquisitions through agencies in big cities to the detriment of smaller towns and economies. It is important that the economies of scale be weighed against the need for regional development. The agency is required to focus on generating maximum efficiency and cost-effectiveness for the state, and the Sita board must recommend to the Minister, on the basis of a strategic plan, what excess funds will be retained by the agency and for which purpose.
I have my doubts, however, as to the level of business efficiency that such an agency can attain. Although I was told in committee that no particular third party has as yet been identified, we will also look with interest at the provision created for subsidaries and the transfer of shares.
While we have some concerns about the practical implementation of the Bill and Sita’s capacity to meet their objectives, the DA supports the amending Bill.
Mnr J HORNE: Agb Voorsitter, agb Minister en lede van die Huis, dit is vir my aangenaam om deel te neem aan hierdie debat, daar hierdie wetgewing die Staatsdiens moet orden om sodoende ekonomiesgerig te opereer. Die hoofdoel van hierdie wysigingswetsontwerp is om die Wet op die Staatsinligtingstegnologie-agentskap van 1998, algemeen bekend as die Sita- wet, te wysig om veranderings aan te bring weens ‘n kabinetsbesluit in April 2001; Sita te magtig om sekere funksies uit te voer, gebaseer op die bevindings van die Presidensiële Hersieningskommissie; en om die verpligte dienste wat Sita aan nasionale en provinsiale departemente moet lewer te herdefinieer. Sita het in April 1999 met sy dienste begin. Die voormelde kabinetsbesluit het ‘n nuwe besigheidsmodel vir Sita goedgekeur. Hierdie nuwe model sluit in die totstandkoming van die Regering se “Information Technology House of Value” wat onder andere fokus op die fundamentele beginsels van veiligheid van inligtingstegnologie, IT soos dit algemeen na verwys word.
Om hierdie nuwe besigheidsmodel te implementeer maak die wysigingswetsontwerp voorsiening vir die instel van filiale sowel as vir die oordrag van aandele in enige filiaal van Sita aan derde partye onderhewig aan kabinetsgoedkeuring. Die doel van hierdie nuwe besigheidsmodel, ``IT House of Value’’, is om koste te verlaag, produktiwiteit te verhoog en dienslewering te verhoog. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)
[Mr J HORNE: Hon Chairperson, hon Minister and members of the House, it gives me pleasure to participate in this debate, in that this legislation should organise the Public Service so as to operate in an economically directed way. The main objective of this amending Bill is to amend the law on the State Information Technology Agency Act of 1998, commonly known as the Sita law, in order to bring about changes resulting from a Cabinet decision taken in April 2001; to empower Sita to carry out certain functions based on the findings of the Presidential Review Commission, and to redefine the compulsory services that Sita must provide to national and provincial departments. Sita commenced its services in April 1999. The above-mentioned Cabinet decision approved a new business model for Sita. This new model includes the establishment of the Government’s Information Technology House of Value that, inter alia, focuses on the fundamental principles of safety of information technology, or IT as it is commonly referred to.
To implement this new business model the amending Bill makes provision for the establishment of branches as well as for the transfer of shares in any branch of Sita to third parties subject to Cabinet approval. The aim of this new business model, IT House of Value, is to lower costs and to increase productivity and service delivery.]
Government’s information technology and communication strategies have been endorsed by an international advisory council of experts which will in the future concentrate on ways to translate them into concrete projects and programmes. The Presidential International Advisory Council on Information Society and Development assembled by President Mbeki last year, met in June 2002 to discuss economic growth and competitiveness, research and development and the implementation of an e-government programme. Many prominent international delegates and experts in the field of information technology attended this discussion. Three focus areas were identified, namely health and telemedicine; small, medium and micro enterprise growth and development, and lastly education.
Die Nuwe NP sou graag wou sien dat klousule 15, artikel 23 moet lees in
consultation with all executing authorities'' en nieafter consultation’’
nie. Nogtans glo die Nuwe NP dat die wysigings wat in hierdie wetsontwerp
voorkom, onder andere die hand van Sita sal sterk om inligtingstegnologie
en -stelsels te voorsien wat daarop gemik is om die inligtingstegnologie-
tekortkominge binne regeringsdepartemente positief te hanteer, en derhalwe
steun die Nuwe NP hierdie wetgewing. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraph
follows.)
[The New NP would like to see that clause 15, paragraph 23 reads in
consultation with all executing authorities'' and not after
consultation’’. The New NP nevertheless believes that the amendments that
appear in this Bill will, inter alia, strengthen the hand of Sita in
supplying information technology and systems aimed at handling the
information technology shortages in government departments in a positive
manner, and therefore the New NP supports this legislation.]
Mrs E N LUBIDLA: Madam Chair, the hon Minister, colleagues and comrades, the State Information Technology Agency was incorporated in 1999 as a private company to provide information technology-related services for the Public Service. This was a very important step, because through its creation we have been able to significantly modernise the Public Service and enhance the level of service delivery with which the ANC has been mandated.
Information technology is not an end in itself, but is an instrument which can assist government processes aimed at speeding up transformation to redress past imbalances. As a newly established democracy in an ever- changing global context we are facing new responsibilities driven by the technology push. One of these is the need to think beyond the traditional, highly structured applications of technology. We need to address the real world of human interactions. We need to update our awareness of how the new technologies may be exploited to ensure the integration of all sectors of society into the mainstream of our endeavours.
In this regard we are in a special position to use the latest technological advances to make an impact on the quality of life of those persons who are most in need of this, such as the disabled and the rural poor. Technology in this regard is a double-edged sword. It can serve to alienate such persons, as more and more of our jobs and interactions become keyboard- based. At the same time it can be the door-opener to a better quality of life for them. Affordable access to information technology, particularly in remote and rural areas of the country, is essential to help us to create opportunities for growth and jobs and to bring new services to rural communities. It provides the rural masses with an outlet for their products and a means to improve their awareness of national and international developments, as well as a powerful medium for exchanging information and ideas. To ensure affordable access to information technology for our rural people, it is essential that Government, at all three levels, must become model users of information technology and act as a catalyst for the development of information technology.
The three spheres of Government must promote, within their respective areas of responsibility, continuing co-operation in the use of information technology to improve the delivery of services to the public in general, and marginalised groups in particular. They must support, within their respective areas of responsibility, and consistent with national Government’s priorities, an intergovernmental approach to programmes and initiatives to improve access to information technology. The State Information Technology Agency is the ideal vehicle to ensure such a collaborative approach.
The main objective of Sita is to serve as the institution that will be responsible for the provision of information technology, information systems and related services to and on behalf of government departments across all spheres of Government. To carry this out effectively, Sita will need a supportive framework that will enable it to carry out its key functions. The current Act has been passed in 1998 and since then a number of new developments have taken place which impact on the effectiveness of its operation.
One of the most important new changes that have been introduced is the cabinet decision to approve a new business model for Sita, which fundamentally alters the way in which Sita must conduct its business. The focus of the new model is to eliminate duplication with the aim of lowering costs, increasing productivity and enhancing service delivery. The amending Bill accordingly proposes material amendments which substantially impact on the functioning of Sita and the provision of information technology services to national and provincial government departments. Without these amendments, Sita’s ability and performance in respect of service delivery will be severely hampered.
Lastly, the amending Bill also proposes a number of technical changes to substitute outdated terms and omit superfluous references in the original Act. The ANC is convinced of the need to introduce changes to the original Act. We also believe that the amendments will serve the purpose for which they have been proposed. We therefore support this Bill. [Applause.]
The MINISTER FOR THE PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION: Chairperson, I would like to thank the members for their inputs during this debate. I should actually start out by thanking the select committee under the able chairpersonship of the hon Mkhaliphi, according to the notice here, who has been chairing, and marshalling this particular Bill through the committee in the NCOP. I also think one should thank the officials who have done an able job of working with members of the select committee on this Bill. This involves officials within DPSA and officials from Sita. I am going to take up a few issues that have been raised here and I would want to say a word of caution as well. What we have seen with this Bill is what happens when there are powerful stakeholders who lose out in the National Assembly and then lobby the NCOP. That has been the case with this particular Bill.
There was an independent authority who approached members and raised concerns around the possibility of confusion of mandates, but those concerns have been dealt with in the National Assembly and also at the level of the Executive.
I think we should follow processes quite closely as we engage on issues, otherwise we open ourselves up to being lobbied to raise issues at the level of the NCOP. I am not suggesting that it is incorrect, but we must just look at the role of influential stakeholders, because the role of Sita is by no means to get involved in areas that broadly relate to ICT in South Africa. It is restricted to the Public Service and we will clearly look at the mandate in terms of local government. In terms of local government, I am rather surprised that it is stated that members of Sita and officials have said that they have overlooked the role of local government, because we were quite conscious of that particular role. One can look at the Government Information Technology Officers forum, the GITO Council, for instance, where all the CEOs come together. At the level of that forum there is also an interface with local government. If one looks at the policy processes that we have been involved in in looking at regulatory frameworks and policies, it should be clear to the ICT environment that local government is there.
If it is about the capacity to roll out and to service local government, that is where we need to look at the phasing in of it. Indeed, if one looks at the Information Technology Acquisitions Centre - Itac itself - One will see that Itac will not immediately deal with the whole issue of local government procurement, but it needs to start out with national and provincial government. So, I just wanted to bring this to the fore and say that we need to look at these questions from that particular point of view.
I then want to go further: I think some members have spoken - the hon Lubidla raised it as well as the member who spoke prior to her, Mr Horne - about the ICT Advisory Council and the use and role of ICT in the country as a whole in terms of the accessibility of the Public Service in unserved and underserved areas.
Being part of the support team to the President, we have been involved for the past two years in the meetings of the ICT Advisory Council. Last year I made a presentation on e-government and a follow-up presentation this year. Just to indicate to this august House today, the experts told the President that, when looking at the e-government plan, they had nothing to add and that he, clearly, had defined what the needs were for e-government in this country, and that what we could focus on was narrowing it down to particular areas that should be prioritised, but that did not mean that the other work should stop. Now, Prof Manuel Castells, a world-renowned sociologist, is part of this Council and he was present last year. He said - and has done so in various lectures - that the availability and use of information and communication technology is a prerequisite for economic and social development in our world. It is the functional equivalent of electricity in the industrial era. Last year, he went as far as very simply saying many people will say that if there is poverty one cannot eat IT. However, if one does not have IT then one cannot eat, because the use of IT and ICT is also to look at the possibilities of opening markets.
We want to make that a reality in the Public Service, besides looking at the focus areas, through using IT to roll out services in underserved areas. We do not want IT to dictate solutions to Government. But we want to say, as Government, that we would like to use IT to make Government services more accessible 24 hours a day, seven days a week, every day of the year. We do not want our pensioners to go to welfare offices only on those days when payouts are made. We would like to ensure accessibility of grants in order that they can go on any day of the month to draw on that money and not just on that day when it has just been deposited into their accounts.
What is more, it is also about ensuring that they can access services in any one of the 11 official languages. One of the institutions that will play this role through the Minister of Arts, Culture, Science and Technology is the CSIR, which will ensure the availability of service in the 11 official languages. And they have just made a breakthrough by making isiZulu accessible, as a first stage, through the use of ICT.
Having said that, it means that we need to use the agencies that we have set up for proficiency and efficiency purposes. We must use them well. But they must be structured well. Some will claim overcentralisation, but if one does not centralise how does one access economies of scale? If one does not centralise, how does one bind the kind of skills that one has? Our centralisation is not to remove power, but to actually empower. I think this is how we should see it. There has never been an intention to disempower provinces. On the contrary, the intention is, will be, and has been, when we were thinking of this Bill, of how do we ensure that the provinces can also utilise this agency in a manner in which we can utilise the economies of scale that will come about with the use of the information and technology agency.
So, I would like to conclude by saying that the inputs that have been made today are very much appreciated, because if we do not get this input then we also do not take into account the diverse views that are there. We just need to ensure that we do not at the same time also get lobbies who have lost debates thinking they are going to achieve their goals in another way. In any case, that will not happen, because we consult very well. There is always good communication and we overcome those hurdles. I would like to thank this House for the support of this Bill. [Applause.]
Debate concluded.
Bill agreed to in accordance with section 75 of the Constitution.
PERMISSIBILITY OF MOTION
(Ruling)
Hon members, earlier during the sitting, the hon Ms Botha moved a motion without notice regarding the sentencing to death-by-stoning of the lady in Nigeria who had been found guilty of adultery. The hon Mr Lucas raised a point of order, saying that the House had already adopted a similar motion.
We have now checked the minutes of past plenaries and can confirm that, for the DA, Mr Matthee had previously moved a motion on the matter and the motion was adopted by the House. [Interjections.] Ms Mahlangu!
In terms of NCOP Rule 75(2)(a) a motion may not be moved whose substance is the same as a motion which had been approved or rejected by the House during the preceding six months. Given that, the motion that Ms Botha raised has transgressed this Rule. Therefore it cannot be put to the House. [Interjections.]
The Council adjourned at 17:15. _____
ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS
FRIDAY, 20 SEPTEMBER 2002
TABLINGS:
National Assembly and National Council of Provinces:
Papers:
- The Minister of Education:
(a) Annual Report and Financial Statements of the South African
Qualifications Authority for 2001-2002, including the Report of
the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements for 2001-2002.
(b) Annual Report and Financial Statements of the National Student
Financial Aid Scheme for 2001-2002, including the Report of the
Auditor-General on the Financial Statements for 2001-2002 [RP 145-
2002].
- The Minister of Public Enterprises:
Annual Report and Financial Statements of arivia.kom for 2001-2002.
- The Minister of Safety and Security:
(a) Annual Report and Financial Statements of the South African
Police Service for 2001-2002, including the Report of the Auditor-
General on the Financial Statements for 2001-2002 [RP 172-2002].
(b) Summary of the Annual Report of the South African Police Service
for 2001-2002 [RP 173-2002].
MONDAY, 23 SEPTEMBER 2002
ANNOUNCEMENTS:
National Assembly and National Council of Provinces:
- The Speaker and the Chairperson:
(1) The following Bill was introduced by the Minister for Justice
and Constitutional Development in the National Assembly on 23
September 2002 and referred to the Joint Tagging Mechanism (JTM)
for classification in terms of Joint Rule 160:
(i) Insolvency Second Amendment Bill [B 53 - 2002] (National
Assembly - sec 75) [Explanatory summary of Bill and prior
notice of its introduction published in Government Gazette No
23860 of 19 September 2002.]
The Bill has been referred to the Portfolio Committee on Justice
and Constitutional Development of the National Assembly.
In terms of Joint Rule 154 written views on the classification of
the Bill may be submitted to the Joint Tagging Mechanism (JTM)
within three parliamentary working days.
WEDNESDAY, 25 SEPTEMBER 2002
ANNOUNCEMENTS:
National Assembly and National Council of Provinces:
- The Speaker and the Chairperson:
(1) The Minister for Justice and Constitutional Development on 22
September 2002 submitted a draft of the Administration of Estates
Amendment Bill, 2002, as well as the memorandum explaining the
objects of the proposed legislation, to the Speaker and the
Chairperson in terms of Joint Rule 159. The draft has been
referred to the Portfolio Committee on Justice and Constitutional
Development and the Select Committee on Security and
Constitutional Affairs by the Speaker and the Chairperson,
respectively, in accordance with Joint Rule 159(2).
(2) The following Bills were introduced by the Minister for Justice
and Constitutional Development in the National Assembly on 25
September 2002 and referred to the Joint Tagging Mechanism (JTM)
for classification in terms of Joint Rule 160:
(i) Administration of Estates Amendment Bill [B 54 - 2002]
(National Assembly - sec 75) [Explanatory summary of Bill
and prior notice of its introduction published in Government
Gazette No 23860 of 19 September 2002.]
(ii) Judicial Matters Amendment Bill [B 55 - 2002] (National
Assembly - sec 75) [Explanatory summary of Bill and prior
notice of its introduction published in Government Gazette
No 23870 of 23 September 2002.]
The Bills have been referred to the Portfolio Committee on Justice
and Constitutional Development of the National Assembly.
In terms of Joint Rule 154 written views on the classification of
the Bills may be submitted to the Joint Tagging Mechanism (JTM)
within three parliamentary working days.
(3) The Joint Tagging Mechanism (JTM) on 25 September 2002 in terms
of Joint Rule 160(3), classified the following Bill as a section
75 Bill:
(i) Intelligence Services Control Amendment Bill [B 50 - 2002]
(National Assembly - sec 75).
TABLINGS:
National Assembly and National Council of Provinces:
Papers:
- The Minister of Finance:
Annual Report and Financial Statements of the South African Revenue
Service for 2001-2002, including the Report of the Auditor-General on
the Financial Statements for 2001-2002.
- The Minister for Safety and Security:
Annual Report and Financial Statements of the Independent Complaints
Directorate for 2001-2002, including the Report of the Auditor-General
on the Financial Statements for 2001-2002 [RP 149-2002].
National Council of Provinces:
- The Chairperson:
The following papers have been tabled and are now referred to the
relevant committees as mentioned below:
(1) The following paper is referred to the Select Committee on
Labour and Public Enterprises:
Report and Financial Statements of the Services Sector Education
and Training Authority for 2001-2002, including the Report of the
Auditor-General on the Financial Statements for 2001-2002 [RP 94-
2002].
(2) The following paper is referred to the Select Committee on
Education and Recreation:
Report and Financial Statements of the Pan South African Language
Board for 2001-2002, including the Report of the Auditor-General
on the Financial Statements for 2001-2002 [RP 166-2002].
TABLINGS:
National Assembly and National Council of Provinces:
Papers:
- The Minister of Finance:
Report and Financial Statements of the National Treasury - Vote 7,
including the Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements
for 2001-2002 [RP 176-2002].
- The Minister of Water Affairs and Forestry:
(a) Report and Financial Statements of the Water Research Commission
for 2001-2002, including the Report of the Auditor-General on the
Financial Statements for 2001-2002 [RP 137-2002].
(b) Report and Financial Statements of the Trans Caledon Tunnel
Authority for 2001-2002.
(c) Government Notice No R 488 published in Government Gazette No
23342 dated 26 April 2002: Invitation to submit written comments
on the Proposed Regulations in terms of section 53 of the National
Forests Act, 1998 (Act No 84 of 1998).
THURSDAY, 26 SEPTEMBER 2002
ANNOUNCEMENTS:
National Assembly and National Council of Provinces:
- The Speaker and the Chairperson:
(1) The Joint Tagging Mechanism (JTM) on 26 September 2002 in terms
of Joint Rule 160(3), classified the following Bills as section 75
Bills:
(i) National Strategic Intelligence Amendment Bill [B 51 -
2002] (National Assembly - sec 75).
(ii) Insurance Amendment Bill [B 52 - 2002] (National Assembly
- sec 75).
(2) The Minister of Trade and Industry on 11 September 2002
submitted drafts of the Merchandise Marks Amendment Bill, 2002,
and the Patents Amendment Bill, 2002, as well as the memorandums
explaining the objects of the proposed legislation, to the Speaker
and the Chairperson in terms of Joint Rule 159. The drafts have
been referred to the Portfolio Committee on Trade and Industry and
the Select Committee on Economic and Foreign Affairs by the
Speaker and the Chairperson, respectively, in accordance with
Joint Rule 159(2).
(3) The Minister of Arts, Culture, Science and Technology on 12
September 2002 submitted a draft of the Natural Scientific
Professions Bill, 2002, as well as the memorandum explaining the
objects of the proposed legislation, to the Speaker and the
Chairperson in terms of Joint Rule 159. The draft has been
referred to the Portfolio Committee on Arts, Culture, Science and
Technology and the Select Committee on Education and Recreation by
the Speaker and the Chairperson, respectively, in accordance with
Joint Rule 159(2).
National Council of Provinces:
-
The Chairperson: (1) Message from National Assembly to National Council of Provinces:
Bill passed by National Assembly on 26 September 2002 and transmitted for concurrence:
(i) Education Laws Amendment Bill [B 31B - 2002] (National Assembly - sec 76).
The Bill has been referred to the Select Committee on Education and Recreation.
(2) Bill passed by National Council of Provinces on 26 September
2002: To be submitted to President of the Republic for assent:
(i) State Information Technology Agency Amendment Bill [B 24B
- 2002] (National Assembly - sec 75).
TABLINGS:
National Assembly and National Council of Provinces:
Papers:
- The Minister of Transport:
Proclamation No R69 published in Government Gazette No 23849 dated 20
September 2002, Commencement of the National Railway Safety Regulator
Act, 2002 (Act No 16 of 2002), made in terms of section 16 of the
National Railway Safety Regulator Act, 2002 (Act No 16 of 2002).
- The Minister of Public Enterprises:
Report and Financial Statements of Denel (Pty) Limited for 2001-2002.
- The Minister for the Public Service and Administration:
Report and Financial Statements of the State Information Technology
Agency for 2001-2002, including the Report of the Auditor-General on
the Financial Statements for 2001-2002.
National Council of Provinces:
-
Report of the Select Committee on Public Services on the South African Maritime and Aeronautical Search and Rescue Bill [B 23D - 2002] (National Assembly - sec 75), dated 25 September 2002:
The Select Committee on Public Services, having considered the subject of the South African Maritime and Aeronautical Search and Rescue Bill [B 23D - 2002] (National Assembly - sec 75), referred to it, reports that it has agreed to the Bill.