WEDNESDAY, 13 NOVEMBER 2002 __

          PROCEEDINGS OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
                                ____

The Council met at 14:09.

The Chairperson took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayers or meditation.

ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS - see col 000.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: It is interesting that when you are multilingual everybody understands you. Nobody had any difficulty with that!

                   PRECEDENCE TO ORDER OF THE DAY

                         (Draft Resolution)

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE COUNCIL: Chairperson, I move without notice: That, after the second Order of the Day, precedence be given to the seventh Order of the Day.

Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.

      FAILURE OF ZIMBABWE'S LEADERSHIP TO GOVERN THEIR COUNTRY

                         (Draft Resolution)

Mr K D S DURR: Chairperson, I move without notice:

That the Council -

(1) notes -

   (a)  the failure of Zimbabwe's leadership to govern that country  and
       the great depression that has come over that land because of the
       hurtful policies placed upon that land by President Mugabe;


   (b)  that our policy of quiet diplomacy has not assisted in  any  way
       the people of Zimbabwe, despite the claim,  predictably  so,  by
       its Foreign  Minister,  Mr  Mudenge,  on  the  success  of  this
       approach;


   (c)  that Zimbabwe is depleted of all resources and now comes to  beg
       for assistance from this  country  for  the  despair  they  have
       brought upon themselves through their corrupt practices; and


   (d)  that we strongly disagree with the position  taken  by  Minister
       Zuma that we should put behind us the mistakes made by Zimbabwe;
       and

(2) therefore -

   (a)  first and foremost, strongly  condemns  Zimbabwe's  undemocratic
       and destructive policies that brought them to this crisis;


   (b)  acknowledges the failure of our policy on  quiet  diplomacy,  as
       this approach did not provide the diplomatic impact  to  prevent
       the violent farm  evictions,  the  food  crisis  and  subsequent
       economic fall of Zimbabwe;
   (c)  deplores the statement by Minister  Zuma  that  Zimbabwe's  past
       must be forgotten,  as  if  treatment  of  its  people  and  the
       destruction of its land by the Zimbabwean authorities are  trite
       and insignificant events in the history of that country; and


   (d)  supports the role of  South  Africa  to  provide  assistance  to
       resolve our neighbour's crisis, but  that  stringent  conditions
       must apply and that early internationally  supervised  elections
       be held as an urgent priority.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Is there any objection to that motion? [Interjections.] There is an objection. The motion therefore becomes notice of a motion.

           PAYMENT OF TRADITIONAL HEALERS BY MEDICAL AIDS

                         (Draft Resolution)

Mrs J N VILAKAZI: Chairperson, I move without notice:

That the Council - (1) notes a newspaper article saying that medical aids may have to accept traditional healers;

(2) further notes that research has shown that more than 70% of blacks prefer to consult inyanga [traditional healers] and izangoma [diviners], rather than Western-trained medical doctors;

(3) is of the opinion that if the medical aids are prepared to pay the bills of homeopaths, they should pay the bills of traditional African healers and practitioners; and

(4) therefore appeals to the traditional healers to organise themselves in a formal structure that will regulate their industry.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Is there any objection to that motion? There is an objection. The motion therefore becomes notice of a motion. [Interjections.]

I was aware of what you were doing. There is an objection.

        AMENDMENT TO INTERNATIONAL TRADE ADMINISTRATION BILL
                         (Draft Resolution)

Mr M V MOOSA: Chairperson, I move without notice:

That -

(1) notwithstanding Rule 173(2) of the National Council of Provinces Rules, an amendment amending clause 64(2) of the International Trade Administration Bill [B 38D - 2002] be tabled for consideration by the Council today in terms of Rule 173(5)(b) of the Council Rules; and

(2) the Council notes that a copy of the amendment has been distributed to all members in the Chamber.

Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.

                  NONCEBA FAMILY COUNSELLING CENTRE

                         (Draft Resolution)

Mr P A MATTHEE: Chairperson, I move without notice:

That the Council -

(1) takes note that -

   (a)  there are not enough places where children can seek help if they
       are victimised;


   (b)  at national level the SA Council for Child  and  Family  Welfare
       deals with more than 20 000 abused children annually;


   (c)  child abuse, neglect and exploitation is  a  national  emergency
       that deserves the undivided attention of the executive, all  our
       legislatures, non-governmental  organisations  and  the  private
       sector;


   (d)  in Khayelitsha, a community of more than half a million  people,
       where it is estimated that one  in  every  three  children  will
       suffer serious sexual abuse before the age of  18,  the  Nonceba
       Family Counselling Centre is the only facility to  which  abused
       and neglected children can turn for help; and


   (e)  this centre deals with an average of 30 cases a day;

(2) thanks both the Kromboom Rotary Club and BP for their help in getting the said centre off the ground; and

(3) endorses the call by the Premier of the Western Cape for support by the private sector for NGOs dealing with child abuse.

Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.

                      DISASTER MANAGEMENT BILL

  (Consideration of Bill and of Report of Select Committee on Local
               Government and Administration thereon)

The MINISTER FOR PROVINCIAL AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT: Chairperson and hon members, the Bill which is before the House today signals, both in needs orientation and effects, a paradigmatic shift from an approach which emphasised mitigation of the effects of disasters to one which gives precedence to the prevention of disasters. The emphasis of the Disaster Management Bill is on insulating our environment and population from disasters and their pernicious impacts.

If the disasters still occur despite and in spite of our precautionary measures, then we have the responsibility to ensure that the impacts of those disasters are effectively mitigated. The Bill visualises that all three spheres of government, ie national, provincial and local, will take separate but complementary responsibilities to deal with the problems associated with disasters. For instance, provinces have the responsibility to craft disaster management plans and strategies that will eventually be an integral part of the national disaster management strategy.

Disaster management, being a multisectoral and multidisciplinary task, demands maximum integration and co-ordination between and within the spheres of government. Our work in this functional area must be understood within the context of the responsibility we have to ensure that our people reside and work in areas that are livable and have conditions that promote sustainable development.

We have recently witnessed instances where the impressive work that is being done in the development nodes, especially the rural ones, has been threatened by erosion arising from all manner of disasters. Since these areas were designated as nodes because they are pervasive with poverty, it is clear that the poor are most vulnerable to disasters. The frontiers of prosperity are not likely to expand enough to encompass previously marginalised areas, unless we bring disaster management to the centre of our development work.

In keeping with Government’s delivery policy orientation, the Bill exorts civil society in all its dimensions to play an active role in the prevention of disasters, as well as in disaster mitigation. This is an important element of preparedness. It harnesses the energies of local people, both by way of civic education and the organisation of communities, to cope with disaster. Civic education to teach people about the dangers of threats such as veld fires and the risk of lighting fires in dry, bushy areas are critical to a preventative strategy. If people are more informed and are aware of the dangers facing them, the risk of these dangers is lessened. Similarly, the more prepared a local community is to deal with a disaster, the better the community will cope with the disaster when it finally strikes. The Bill makes specific reference to the need for disaster management volunteers. It is critical that local organisational structures such as ward committees and civics take up the challenge to meet the need for disaster management.

From all points of view, this is a good Bill. I commend it to the House. [Applause.]

Mr B J MKALIPHI: Madam Chairperson, hon Minister and members, during the historic visit of this Council to the Eastern Cape province at the end of July this year, some of the members of this institution were for the first time witnesses to the ravages of a natural disaster. Some of us were astounded by the sheer magnitude of the devastation in that province.

What this disaster demonstrated to us was the reality that disasters are particularly severe on poor and vulnerable communities. And as the Chief Whip of this House, the hon Enver Surty, pointed out during the President’s debate yesterday, this Council was able - in an unprecedented move, together with local government representatives and traditional leaders - to visit disaster-affected areas, sympathise with the victims and render the necessary support, where possible.

The Disaster Management Bill before this House today is informed by the White Paper on Disaster Management which was published in 1997. It brings about a uniform and integrated approach to co-ordinating disaster management in all spheres of government, and to promote and assist the implementation of disaster management measures in all sectors of society. In order to achieve this, the Bill focuses on disaster management as a continuous, integrated, multisectoral and multidisciplinary process of planning and implementation.

Further, the Bill provides for the establishment of a national advisory forum. The forum will be chaired by the the head of the National Disaster Management Centre, which is to be given certain special functions, including, among others, the identification and establishment of communication links with disaster management role-players in the private and public sectors, as well as the development and maintenance of a directory of contact persons and institutional role-players.

The select committee trusts that this disaster management centre and its management and support structures will be strengthened by the implementation of this Bill. We believe that this Bill and disaster management in practice is an integral part of our legislation and policies that are aimed at alleviating the plight of the poorest of the poor. Because our people were historically resigned to the peripheries of the most vulnerable corners of the South African landscape, this Bill is indeed timeous if one considers that the year 2002 was the year of sustainable development.

Given the severe impact that disasters have on these marginalised households - as the disaster in the Eastern Cape and similar disasters elsewhere in our country profoundly demonstrated - the need for this legislation has, in fact, become acute. It is geared towards improving the state of preparedness and risk reduction, not only relief and recovery.

Moreover, the recent Johannesburg World Summit on Sustainable Development has exposed the extent to which developing countries like ours are lagging behind with regard to the lack of the elementary knowledge that other communities elsewhere have about disasters.

It has made the following observations in this regard: loss of biodiversity continues; fish stocks continue to be depleted; and deserts claim more and more fertile land. The adverse effects of climatic changes are already evident. Natural disasters are more frequent and more devastating, and developing countries more vulnerable.

In conclusion, it is incumbent on us as a legislature to join hands with all sectors of our communities and ensure that they are educated, informed and actively prepared for the disasters in the sky, in the seas and in the veld. [Applause]

Ms C BOTHA: Chairperson, hon Minister, the DA is of the opinion that the Disaster Management Bill, together with the establishment of an appropriate risk management strategy for the agricultural sector, will contribute much to ensure that the inevitability of disaster is reduced to manageable proportions.

Three phases in the approach to disaster management are highlighted in the Bill: before, during and after. It is difficult to say which is the most important: whether it will be the work of the National Disaster Management Centre in predicting or preventing disaster; the management capability of provincial and local government to act expeditiously during a disaster; or the role of the Treasury after the event, which must assist in restoring conditions which prevailed before the disaster.

What is not necessarily highlighted by the Bill but is borne out in practice is the need for swift and meaningful assistance. I will give members an example of the way in which real events occurred, as they did in the Highveld of the Eastern Free State, in Mpumalanga and in KwaZulu-Natal in September 2001.

An unusual conjuncture of circumstances characterised by devastating veld fires followed by extremely cold conditions during September 2001 resulted in enormous damages in terms of livestock losses, as well as loss of grazing land, infrastructure, plantations and crops for thousands of farmers in the above-mentioned provinces.

Strong winds fanned runaway veld fires, turning them into infernos that left a path of destruction among human beings, human habitation, machinery, livestock, plantations and food crops. High day temperatures contributed to a situation in which cattle shed their winter coats, making them more vulnerable to extremely cold temperatures which, at that stage, were neither foreseen nor predicted.

The warm, dry conditions were immediately followed by an unprecedented wave of bitterly cold conditions on 12 September 2001. This caused many farm animals that had survived the veld fires to die. Emerging and communal farmers, in particular, were affected extremely negatively in that many of these farmers lost most of their herds and in many cases all of their livestock. This catastrophic climatic phenomenon is the first experienced within living memory in those areas.

No insurance is available for animals that die in cold and/or freezing conditions, while insurance against other natural risks - excluding animals in transit - is unaffordable, since premiums amount to approximately 16% of the value of the insured product. The number of claims totalled 16 000 and the direct losses totalled between R18 million and R248 million. However, losses are also loss of income and production capacity.

As far as my understanding of this particular situation goes, the Minister for Agriculture and Land Affairs has promised assistance to the value of 50% of the animal losses, but more than a year later the disaster remains with the victims and compensation has not been forthcoming. In the meantime stock prices have virtually doubled - gains in which these farmers could not participate, but will double their costs when they replace the animals. This uncertainty and delay is unacceptable.

The suffering caused by the event itself reinforces the critical requirement that action following disasters be undertaken with tremendous dedication and speed, so that such suffering is not prolonged. This will, indeed, be the final test for the success of this Bill, which has our full support. [Applause.]

Mr J J DOWRY (Western Cape): Chairperson, hon Minister, hon members, today is the first time that I will address the NCOP and it is, indeed, an honour and a privilege to participate in this debate in this distinguished House.

With the Disaster Management Bill South Africa will have a framework for national disaster management. This will most definitely provide an integrated and uniform approach to disaster management, not only for the national, provincial and local spheres of government, but also for statutory functionaries, NGOs, the private sector and communities.

For the first time we have legislation which will merge fragmented pieces of legislation into one comprehensive disaster management policy. This is focused on the consolidation of disaster management in South Africa, where the burden of responsibility is on all three spheres of government.

This Disaster Management Bill is also a unique piece of legislation as it is based on international standards. Its foundation is the UN’s disaster management continuum consisting of risk reduction principles like prevention, mitigation and preparedness, as well as recovery principles like response, relief, rehabilitation and reconstruction.

The Disaster Management Bill will take us from the predominantly reactive civil protection approach to a dynamic proactive disaster management approach. All role-players in the drafting of this Bill must be congratulated, specifically Louis Buys and his team in the Department of Provincial and Local Government, on paving the way since 1997 to make South Africa a leading country in terms of disaster management.

The Western Cape supports this Bill, as it is guiding legislation which will assist this province in dealing with disaster management.

Die Wet op Munisipale Stelsels is baie duidelik in die voorskrif dat wanneer funksies en bevoegdhede na munisipaliteite oorgedra word, daar eers sekere voorgeskrewe stappe moet wees. Eers nadat die proses deurloop is, kan die aangeleenthede by wyse van wetgewing aan munisipaliteite oorgedra word. Daarom is dit van kardinale belang om nie net die verantwoordelikheid met baie besliste verpligtinge aan munisipaliteite oor te dra nie, maar ook die nodige finansiële ondersteuning. In die geval van die betrokke wetgewing is dit die nasionale Regering wat funksies oordra en is dit daarom noodsaaklik dat die nasionale Regering ook sy verantwoordelikheid moet nakom deur nie net die finansiële ondersteuning te voorsien nie, maar ook die kapasiteitsbou-inisiatiewe te help vestig. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraph follows.)

[The Municipal Structures Act is very clear in its instruction that when functions and powers are transferred to municipalities, certain prescribed steps should first be followed. Only once the process has been followed, can matters be transferred to municipalities by means of legislation. That is why it is of cardinal importance not only to transfer the responsibility to municipalities with very firm obligations, but also the necessary financial support. In the case of the legislation in question, it is the national Government that transfers functions and it is therefore essential that the national Government also meets its responsibility by not only providing financial support, but also assists with establishing capacity- building initiatives.]

In the Western Cape we have had recent examples of natural disasters which were tragic by their very nature. The wide-spread flooding and storm damage during the past winter months brought untold misery and hardship to thousands of people. In the past we have had earthquakes, oil spills and forest fires, and with every disaster we gained more experience to help us cope with the next one.

Ten einde die moniterings-, koördinerings- en ondersteuningsfunksie in rampbestuur na te kom, het die provinsiale regering van die Wes-Kaap die volgende programme ontwikkel en ook gefinansier: Die daarstel van ‘n GIS- gebaseerde rekenaarprogram vir rampbestuur wat deur alle munisipale owerhede, provinsiale departemente en veiligheidsmagte in die Wes- Kaapprovinsie gebruik gaan word. Tans word ondersoek ingestel na die daarstel van ‘n rampbestuursrisiko- en kwesbaarheidsmodel vir die Wes- Kaapprovinsie. Die model sal alle moontlike rampgevare wetenskaplik ontleed. Die projek word tans in samewerking met die Universiteit van Kaapstad en die Universiteit van die Vrystaat ten uitvoer gebring. Die finansiering van ‘n helikopter vir ondersteuning in brandbestryding in die Kaapstad metropolitaanse gebied, én die finansiering van brandbestrydingstoerusting by informele nedersettings en brandbestrydingsvoertuie ter ondersteuning van nooddienste op die N1 word verskaf. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraph follows.)

[In order to comply with the monitoring, co-ordinating and support function in disaster management, the provincial government of the Western Cape has developed and also financed the following programmes: The introduction of a GIS-based computer programme for disaster management that will be used by all municipal authorities, provincial departments and security forces in the Western Cape province. At present investigation is being made into the introduction of a disaster management risk and vulnerability model for the Western Cape. The model will scientifically analyse all possible disasters. The project is at present being undertaken in association with the University of Cape Town and the University of the Free State. Financing of a helicopter for support in fire-fighting in the Cape metropolitan area, as well as fire-fighting equipment at informal settlements and fire-fighting vehicles to support emergency services on the N1 is being provided.]

Disaster management is not a competency of Government alone, be it the national, provincial or local government. The partnership with communities is the critical element in the success or failure of each and every disaster management plan. That is why I am pleased with the emphasis on disaster management volunteers in the Disaster Management Bill.

A delegation from the Western Cape visited Germany in October last year. The delegation came back from Germany and expressed its admiration for the role and input of volunteers from local communities in fire-fighting and disaster management. In the state of Bavaria in Germany volunteers are solely responsible for fire-fighting in municipalities with a population of less than 100 000. They are, however, provided with all the necessary equipment and training.

There is a critical need for volunteers in the Western Cape, especially in our disadvantaged communities, where people are often the victims of devastating fires and flooding. It is said that international experience has shown that more or less 8% of any given community is involved in voluntary work in their community. The legislation we are debating today is a start in the process to involve volunteers. I want to use this opportunity today to urge our communities in the Western Cape to become involved in fire-fighting and other emergency spheres such as emergency rescue, disaster and resource management.

Ek sal my plig versaak as ek nie ten minste die verskeie noodlenigingsorganisasies bedank vir die voortreflike rol wat hulle reeds in die Wes-Kaap gespeel het, en nog sal speel nie. Daarom wil ek graag die geleentheid gebruik om hulde te bring aan die Rooikruis, St John’s- ambulansdiens, die Nasionale Seereddingsinstituut, die Life Savers- organisasie, die Noodhulpliga, SANZAF en ander geloofsorganisasies, asook Meals on Wheels. Hierdie is almal organisasies wat uit vrywilligers bestaan en wat reeds die lot van duisende mense verlig het. Vandag wil ek hulle bedank vir hul toewyding en hul verbintenis tot naastediens. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraph follows.)

[I would be failing my duty if I did not at least thank the various disaster relief organisations for the outstanding role that they have played and will play in the Western Cape. For that reason I want to take the opportunity to pay tribute to the Red Cross, St John’s Ambulance Service, the National Sea Rescue Institute, the Life Savers organisation, the First Aid League, SANZAF and other religious organisations, as well as Meals on Wheels. All of these organisations consist of volunteers and they have already brought relief to the plight of thousands of people. I want to thank them today for their dedication and commitment to charity.]

Let me conclude by saying that we can have the best legislation and the best intentions in the world, but words on paper mean nothing unless there is the capacity to deliver and the will to properly implement this legislation.

The Western Cape has accepted the challenges with regard to disaster management and, together with our municipalities and our communities, we will confront the barriers of ignorance and negativity. I am confident that we have the necessary expertise and knowledge in this province to implement this legislation and manage any disaster confronting us. [Applause.]

Mr J HORNE: Agb Voorsitter, agb Minister en lede van die Huis, alhoewel daar ver gevorder is met navorsing om rampe te voorspel en kan voorsorgmaatreëls tydig daarteen geneem word, is daar rampe, veral van ‘n natuurlike aard, wat skielik sonder enige waarskuwing en met ernstige gevolge plaasvind, en wat soms baie lewens eis.

Ons huidige wetgewing wat rampe betref, is meer toegespits op wat gedoen kan word ná ernstige rampe, terwyl die wetsontwerp onder bespreking vandag onder meer die belangrikheid van voorkoming en verligting en ‘n nuwe benadering tot rampbestuur bepleit. Belangrike rolspelers hier is die regering, privaatsektor, gemeenskappe en nieregeringsorganisasies.

Alhoewel rampe die kwesbaarheid van alle mense raak, het die geskiedenis ons geleer dat dit veral die arm en agtergeblewe gemeenskappe die meeste raak. Die instelling van ‘n effektiewe rampbestuurstrategie is van uiterste belang. Koördinering, samewerking, opleiding en gemeenskapsbewustheid is van kardinale belang.

Alhoewel rampe geklassifiseer kan word as nasionaal, provinsiaal of plaaslik om primêre verantwoordelikheid daarvoor aan te dui, moet al drie vlakke van regering betrokke raak in hierdie verband. Daar is egter kommer oor hoe arm munisipaliteite rampbestuursentrums gaan finansier, aldus sal daar duidelike riglyne aan munisipaliteite gegee moet word hoe om geld te bekom, want dit mag en kan ‘n wesenlike probleem word. Die nasionale rampbestuursentrum moet so gou as moontlik ingestel word om paraatheid te verseker.

Ten slotte, openbare verhore is gehou rondom hierdie wet en die kommer wat daar uitgespreek is, is sover as moontlik geakkommodeer in die wet.

Aldus, die Nuwe NP steun die wet. (Translation of Afrikaans speech follows.)

[Mr J HORNE: Hon Chairperson, hon Minister and members of the House, although much progress has been made with research to predict disasters and precautionary measures against them can be taken timeously, there are disasters, especially of a natural nature, which occur suddenly, without any warning, with serious consequences and which sometimes claim many lives.

Our present legislation relating to disasters is aimed at what can be done after serious disasters, whereas the Bill under discussion today focuses, inter alia, on the importance of prevention and relief, and makes a plea for a new approach to disaster management. In this regard important role- players are the Government, the private sector, communities and non- governmental organisations.

Although disasters affect the vulnerability of all people, history has taught us that they most affect the poor and disadvantaged communities in particular. The introduction of an effective disaster management strategy is of the utmost importance. Co-ordination, co-operation, training and community awareness are vitally important.

Although disasters can be classified as national, provincial or local to indicate primary responsibility for them, all three tiers of government should become involved in this regard. However, there is concern about how poor municipalities are going to finance disaster management centres, and therefore municipalities will have to be given clear guidelines on how to acquire money, because this might and could become an essential problem. The national disaster management centre must be established as soon as possible to ensure preparedness.

In conclusion, public hearings were held on this law, and the concern that was expressed there has been accommodated in the legislation as far as possible.

The New NP therefore supports the Bill.]

Mr O P DIKGETSI: Madam Chairperson, hon Minister, members of the House, the White Paper on Disaster Management identified the need to develop a new approach in dealing with disaster management in the country.

It is on this premise that the Disaster Management Bill provides, inter alia, for an integrated and co-ordinated disaster management policy that focuses on preventing or reducing the risk of disasters, mitigating the severity of disasters, emergency preparedness, rapid and effective response to disasters and post-disaster recovery.

To this end the province has already embarked on a process of reviewing the integrated development plans of all municipalities in the province to ensure that disaster management forms an integral part of the development planning at local government level.

In preparing the readiness of role-players, the province, in conjunction with the Department of Provincial and Local Government, has already trained 29 councillors, 25 functionaries and 22 volunteers. However, there is an acute need to roll out training for other role-players.

In terms of the Bill, the Minister will be able to publish the national disaster management framework that will provide an appropriate, coherent, transparent and inclusive policy on disaster management for the whole of the Republic. The framework will also give effect to the application of co- operative governance on issues of disaster management among the three spheres of government. This will also encourage us in the province to ensure that the only two category B municipalities and all the district municipalities in the province that have the capacity to deal with disasters are in a position to share their resources and knowledge with the other needy municipalities.

Most significantly, the framework will facilitate the involvement of the private sector, non-governmental organisations, technical experts and volunteers in disaster management, something that does not exist now. The framework will also provide a framework within which organs of state may fund disaster management with specific emphasis on preventing or reducing the risk of disasters, including grants to contribute to post- disaster recovery and rehabilitation.

Due to the nature of municipalities in the province, namely that there are small municipalities and vast distances between those municipalities in the province, it is necessary to consider making a once-off allocation or grant to those needy municipalities to enable them to deal with basic disasters that may occur in their jurisdictions.

Members will agree with me when I say that the promulgation of this Bill is long overdue. Its promulgation will, inter alia, ensure that municipalities, organs of state, the private sector and non-governmental organisations in the province prepare disaster management plans and strategies on prevention, mitigation and response initiatives for the disasters that the province is prone to, namely droughts, fires and floods. The effect of this will necessitate additional funding and personnel in both provincial and local government spheres.

The Bill will also ensure that provincial and municipal disaster management centres execute their significant role of monitoring, measuring performance and evaluating disaster management plans, as well as prevention, mitigation and response initiatives on disasters.

The provincial and municipal disaster management centres will annually compile a report which will be submitted to the Minister and the legislature. The report will, inter alia, entail the results of monitoring of prevention and mitigation initiatives, disasters that occurred in the province, their magnitude and severity, as well as the effects they had and recommendations on how to deal with problems encountered.

Currently none of the 31 municipalities in the province have budgeted sufficiently for disaster management. As a result, there are serious problems when communities should be assisted with funds for disaster prevention, mitigation, recovery and rehabilitation. The promulgation of the Bill will ensure that provincial and municipal organs of state contribute financially to preparedness, response efforts, post-disaster recovery and rehabilitation.

The successful implementation of the Bill is also dependent upon municipalities obtaining the co-operation and assistance of dedicated and willing South Africans who will serve as volunteers in those municipalities. The recruitment of these citizens puts an obligation on the province and municipalities to train them on how to deal effectively and efficiently with disasters.

Let us make it our duty to encourage our friends, families, neighbours and comrades to join the units of volunteers that will be established. We concur with the hon Minister that this is a good Bill.

Nksz P C P MAJODINA: Sihlalo obekekileyo, mandilibulele ithuba, Mphathiswa namalungu eBhunga lamaPhondo. Intatho-nxaxheba kwingxoxo-mpikiswano kuMthetho oYilwayo ojongene neentlokele eMzantsi Afrika. Lo Mthetho ubandakanya wonke ummi woMzantsi Afrika. Lo nguMthetho oza kuncedana nokukhuthaza abantu ukuba bazikhusele iintlekele zingekehli. Ukwakhuthaza ukusetyenziswa kolwazi lwemveli ekulweni neentlekele. Thina sizazi ngokwenyani ke iintlekele. Asitshili nje ngento esingayaziyo. Sibe ngamaxhoba ezantyalantyala; saba ngamaxhoba ekhephu; saba ngamxhoba emililo yamadlelo nezindlu; saba ngamxhoba eenkanyamba.

Lo Mthetho ukwaqinisa nengalo yomthetho kwabo bacekela phantsi besenza ngabom. Lo Mthetho unika uxanduva kuzo zonke izigaba zolawulo ukuba zakhe amaqumrhwana aza kuthi ajongane nentlekele ngelo xesha intlekele isihla ngalo. Ukwakhuthaza abantu boMzantsi Afrika ukuba bazinikele ekubeni ngamathanda-zwe; babe ngamavolontiya ngexesha kanye befuneka abantu bedandathekile emiphefumlweni. Yaye ke abo bantu baza kuphawuleka lula ngesinxibo abaza kuthi basivathe ukuze singadibani nabantu bakowethu bencedwa ziingcuka ezambethe ufele wegusha ngobusuku.

Mphathiswa, makuthi xa kuthe wabhengezwa ummandla lowo njengommandla wentlekele, noko ibe khona intshukumo nento ekukhaphayo ngoba kaloku xa ufika usithi uwwubhengezile ummandla lowo, abantu balindela ukuba baza kususwa ekulingweni bangeniswe ezulwini elingunaphakade. Kambe ke niyafika Mphathiswa, nihambe niqhumis’ uthuli ningaphindi nibonakale. Kwaye ke loo nto iyawenyusa amathemba abantu xa nithe nafika. Elinye inqanaba kukuba nathi bantu ababomvu, amaqaba la, siyakwazi ukuba sincedwe ngulo mthetho usibonelele nakule ndlu inye ingurontabile ndinayo. Awujonganga zindlu zinkulu kuphela, kodwa uthi intlekele yintlekele nokuba yenzeke kubani na, yenzeke phi na. Siyawubulela ke lo Mthetho.

Intlekele le Mphathiswa nawe Sihlalo weBhunga, ingumvukela-mbuso ngoba sithi sijonge ekuphuculeni impilo yabantu bakowethu, isithathe intlekele isibuyisele emva. I-ANC iyawuxhasa loMthetho. Oomasipala ke banikwa igunya lokuba babasuse abantu kwiindawo ezinokuba nobungozi kubo kwaye oomasipala mabasebenzise imithethwana abayihlomeleyo ukuba basuse abantu abadlwengula umhlaba besiya kubeka ubomi babo esichengeni. Mphathiswa, nguntemekwana lo, lusana oluncinci. Khawulunik’ isicakathi ukuze luphakame nalo luzihambele. Ndiyabulela. [Kwaqhwatywa.]

USIHLALO WEBHUNGA LESIZWE LAMAPHONDO: Bathi isiXhosa sinzima. Ndiyabona ukuba lo mntu utolikayo ebebambekile kakhulu namhlanje. (Translation of Xhosa speech follows.)

[Ms P C P MAJODINA: Hon Chairperson, let me thank you for the opportunity I am given. Minister and members of the NCOP, with regard to participation in the debate on the Disaster Management Bill, this is a Bill that includes everybody. This is a Bill that will assist in encouraging people to help themselves before disaster strikes. It also encourages the use of indigenous knowledge to combat disaster.

We really know disaster. We are not just talking boldly about something we don’t know. We are victims of floods, of snow, of veld fires and of tornadoes. This Bill also strengthens the law against those who deliberately undermine it. It places a responsibility on all spheres of government to set up councils that will deal with disaster when it strikes. It also encourages the citizens of South Africa to commit themselves to patriotism and to be volunteers at a time when they are supposed to be in mourning. Moreover, those persons will be easily identifiable by the attire they will put on so that we don’t find our people being helped by bogus helpers.

Minister, when a particular area has been declared a disaster area, let there be some movement and something that accompanies it, because when you appear and say that you have declared an area a disaster area, the people expect to be moved from the trying times and put in eternal heaven. However, you arrive at such a place and depart with dust having been stirred up, never to be seen again. It should be noted that when you arrive, it does raise the hopes of the people.

The other area is the fact that even with us, people smeared with red ochre, the primitive, can be helped by this Bill and can be provided for in this single rondavel that I own. It is not only intended to cater for large households, but it says disaster is disaster, no matter who experiences it or where it occurs. We are grateful for this Bill.

Minister and Chairperson of the NCOP, disaster is an uprising against the Government, because whilst we are focused on improving the lives of our people, it would set us back. The ANC supports this Bill. Municipalities are given authority to move people away from places that might be hazardous to them. Municipalities must also use amended regulations to remove people who are destroying the land and placing their lives at risk.

Minister, this is a baby, a tender infant. Give it some ``isicakathi’’ [a preparation made from various medical roots] so that the baby can walk on its own. Thank you.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: They say isiXhosa is difficult. I notice that the person who is interpreting was under great pressure today.]

Mr K PANDAY (KwaZulu-Natal): Madam Chair, hon Minister and hon members, allow me at the very outset to state that kwaZulu-Natal supports the Disaster Management Bill.

The Disaster Management Bill is a very important piece of legislation because, for the first time in the history of our country, there is an attempt to look at the remedies for the situation in a holistic manner. This in itself is a commendable endeavour. To my mind the basis of any serious disaster strategy is the effort to prevent and mitigate disasters instead of simply managing them. The Bill goes far enough in addressing such an initiative.

Disasters take different forms. They are natural or human-created situations that cause or threaten to cause death, injury, disease, damage to the environment and the destruction of the life of a community. Throughout the years we had disasters caused by tornadoes in the Eastern Cape and elsewhere; floods on the Cape Flats and the Cato Manor squatter camp; veld fires throughout the country; fires in informal settlements in Gauteng; and tens of deaths at the Ellis Park soccer derby. Indeed, the list is almost endless.

Disasters are destructive. They demoralise people psychologically, weaken them emotionally and create serious health, poverty, financial, environmental and other social problems. There are innovations in the Act to counteract many of these problems, but there are also several critical questions that need to be asked and commented upon in a constructive manner, to help everyone relook and revisit the Bill in its entirety.

Intergovernmental structures and frameworks are thorough and comprehensive. However, the very wide and consultative composition of the National Management Advisory Forum might turn it into an inflexible and bureaucratic state organ incapable of making the necessary decisions and interventions. Although co-ordination and consultation are of importance in such circumstances, in most cases disasters demand urgent measures and actions that only a flexible decision-making body can undertake. The action taken must be swift and instantaneous.

The establishment of a National Disaster Management Centre is a priority that needs to become a reality very soon, as its work can lead to prevention and mitigation. The same is true of provincial management centres that would be in constant consultation and co-operation with the national centre.

The fact that the Bill requires all levels and spheres of government to draw up their own disaster management documents is important, as those responsible will be able to utilise their historical knowledge of their areas in the completion of their task. The process of co-operation and consultation between the various levels and spheres is exemplified in the Bill and is of primary importance. However, we propose that there be yearly evaluations at all spheres and levels of government.

Chapter 6 needs revisiting, especially when one examines closely the punitive measures regarding the prevention or mitigation of disasters in relation to provinces. It is always important to have a reserved, centralised disaster fund, so that the financial exhaustion that is mentioned in the document becomes measurable. Clause 57(e) provides that the national Government will refuse to help a devastated area because of the exhaustion of funds or a possible inadequate prevention on the part of the local government structures. These are key questions that need to be answered.

Chapter 7 deals with a very crucial matter in disaster management, ie volunteers. It is accepted that volunteers need to be well trained in most aspects of disaster management by the municipality. However, the language used in the document at present needs to be changed, as it strongly resembles military command structures. Disaster management volunteers need to be well-trained and disciplined, but they should not follow military- style patterns of command and organisational structures. The Bill fills an immeasurable gap in our country’s legislative framework.

In conclusion, we from KwaZulu-Natal wish all our Muslim colleagues well over the period of fasting. May Allah - peace be upon Him - be with them and their families. [Applause.]

Ms W TUSI (KwaZulu-Natal): Chairperson, hon Minister, hon members and special delegates, I wish to thank the Chairperson for affording me the opportunity to debate on this important Bill. I must first applaud members of the NCOP for the sterling work they have done in bringing the Bill to finality.

The country has experienced different types of disasters in different areas. They were either natural or man-made disasters. We have had floods, snow, veld fires and fires that have destroyed homes in informal settlements. During these unfortunate events lives were lost and people lost their property in the form of houses, furniture, livestock and agricultural products in the case of farmers. This has adversely affected our communities. It is therefore not a question of choice that we have to have this Bill.

We as a Government have an obligation to prevent and protect our country and its citizens against these types of calamities. The Disaster Management Bill will enable us to respond appropriately to disasters. It provides a legislative framework that will enable the Government to fulfil its obligation of looking after the country.

The Bill comes out very clearly on co-operative governance, as stated in Chapter 3 of the Constitution. It also provides a legislative framework to assist Government to respond whenever there are disasters that occur or may occur in Southern Africa. It also enables us to have information on international expertise and assistance in respect of disaster management.

We from KwaZulu-Natal support the Bill. [Applause.]

Mr P D N MALOYI: Chairperson, I do not normally talk for a long time, but because this Bill is very long, we will have to add another five minutes to my time. [Laughter.]

I must say that, as the ANC, we are very happy with clause 7 of the Bill which deals with rapid response when a national disaster has been declared. We are very happy. We know exactly when the department should intervene, and when we should intervene. That clause is very clear to everybody.

We are also very happy with clause 2(k), which indicates to everybody what is going to happen in terms of funding. That clause says, among others, that when we develop our framework, we should look into ways of ensuring that all spheres of government contribute. We should also make sure that there is funding for this purpose. We are happy with that clause. Nobody is supposed to be complaining about funded or unfunded mandates.

We must thank Dr Louis Buys who is in the national centre. Clearly, whilst we are debating this Bill today, the department is not just sitting down, waiting for us to pass this piece of legislation, after which it would then start preparing. They already have mechanisms in place, and I am very impressed and happy with that particular arrangement.

I must say that, in our briefings as the committee, Dr Buys did sterling work. We hope that those were not just words, and that we will see things happening in practice. My colleague, Penny Majodina, said that we come out in full force only when there is a disaster. I hope that is not what is going to happen, because we are now talking about prevention and mitigation. We are moving away from reaction.

It is against this background that the ANC is in full support of this Bill. All the parties in our committee also indicated that they were in full support. [Applause.]

The MINISTER FOR PROVINCIAL AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT: Chairperson, let me first thank all the hon members who took part in the discussion of this Bill. A special word of thanks goes to members of the select committee for processing the Bill, as well as for giving their full support to both the Ministry and the department. I also want to once again thank all the members of the NCOP for the continuing concern they have shown about this problem of disasters.

The chairperson of the select committee, the hon Mkaliphi, emphasised the need for the necessary capacity to be put in place to operationalise the provisions of this Bill once it becomes an Act of Parliament. I want to assure him that everything necessary is being done to ensure that the requisite capacity is in place. Right now capacity-building processes are underway in five provinces. Very soon we want to make sure that all the provinces are given the necessary attention with respect to capacity- building.

It was also emphasised that the law alone is not going to solve all the problems that we have. The Bill creates enabling conditions and a framework for dealing with the problem. Indeed, the fact that the law is in place is very important.

I must say, lastly, that we are overwhelmed by the support which we received from this Council. We hope that we will continue to hold hands to make sure that this problem is dealt with effectively.

The hon Maloyi said that we need to make sure that there is no unfunded mandate. However, he also noted that, although the Bill does not say this explicitly, it says that apart from making sure that there is no unfunded mandate, there should be no unmandated funding. [Laughter.] I cannot assure the House that that will not happen. [Applause.]

Debate concluded.

Question put: That the Bill be agreed to.

IN FAVOUR OF: Eastern Cape, Free State, Gauteng, KwaZulu-Natal, Mpumalanga, Northern Cape, Northern Province, North West, Western Cape.

Bill accordingly agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.

               INTERNATIONAL TRADE ADMINISTRATION BILL

(Consideration of Bill and of Report of Select Committee on Economic and Foreign Affairs thereon)

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF TRADE AND INDUSTRY: Chairperson, hon members and delegates, the International Trade Administration Bill has undergone extensive consultation and debate, both inside and outside of Parliament, and we are pleased that the crucial moment of voting the Bill into law in this House has now arrived. As we get ready to pass this Bill, it bears reminding ourselves of the significant changes that this law proposes to introduce, and of the motivation for them.

In an important sense, this Bill is an affirmation of the current and expected contribution of international trade to South Africa’s economy, as well as to the economies of our regional neighbours, particularly in the Southern African Customs Union. Consequently, therefore, the establishment of an effective system of international trade administration is imperative to enable trade to contribute to economic growth and development, as well as rising incomes, investment and employment.

Government’s policy of openness to trade with the world requires that economic operators, whether they be importers or exporters, are afforded certainty, efficiency and redress to enable them to conduct their businesses and to sustain and grow their businesses. In establishing such a system through this Bill, we are placing trade policy in the driving seat of trade administration, ie allowing the lowering and raising of tariffs, the adjudication of unfair trade, etc, to be informed by national interests and policy objectives, and not by special interests and ad hoc lobbying, as used to happen in the past.

Moreover, our country’s membership to agreements under the WTO, SADC, Sacu and the EU means that practically all of South Africa’s trade with the world is governed by binding international trade laws and disciplines. In this sense, therefore, the clarity and certainty that this Bill seeks to introduce to our trade administration is also an obligation to our trade partners.

In essence, therefore, the International Trade Administration Bill is about adherence to good governance that we so much seek to promote - good governance in the domestic economy and as a member of global and regional trade systems. Looking at the Bill itself, the requirement that the Minister consults stakeholders in issuing trade policy statements and directives - as foreseen in our Constitution and in laws like the Nedlac Act - is, indeed, good governance.

We welcome this emphasis in the Bill, which came from the deliberations of the two committees of Parliament and the select committee of the NCOP, as well as from inputs and submissions that were received from the stakeholders. The requirement that the Minister should publish such statements and directives in the Gazette, as well as the policy mandates, procedures and decisions that are taken at the Sacu level, are also good governance. So too is the spelling out of procedures for the investigation, evaluation and adjudication of customs duty and trade applications, as well as the spelling out of the functions of the International Trade Administration Commission and the criteria for its composition.

In the regional context, the Bill both affirms and anticipates the very significant historic changes foreseen in the new renegotiated Sacu agreement with Botswana, Lesotho, Namibia and Swaziland which was signed by our President and his Sacu counterparts only three weeks ago on 21 October

1. The elevation of the signing of this agreement to the heads-of-state level symbolises the high level of importance attached to equal participation and democratic decision-making which the new Sacu agreement introduces. It is also an expression of the free commitment of Sacu leaders to deeper regional economic integration and co-operation in our region.

The importance of these changes in South Africa’s relations with our Sacu partners is clearer when one considers the past history of virtually complete domination of the customs union by South Africa, because what was clearly the case is that the members of the customs union were not all equal in the arrangements of the customs union, and that increasingly created problems for South Africa. A range of difficulties occurred, there being an assumption, for example, that anti-dumping actions we took as South Africa were also applicable in the other Sacu member states.

It took the policy review of the WTO to point to us that this was actually not the case, and that it was necessary for each member state of the customs union to have a national centre of its own that would deal with these actions on behalf of their own nationals. It was also the case that South Africa was making decisions on tariffs without any obligation to consult other member states of the customs union.

Accordingly, straight after 1994 we embarked on some very difficult negotiations around the Sacu. There were two areas of concern in these negotiations, and that created the most difficult problems. The first one - the one I have just dealt with - was that, in essence, the customs union was not democratic and did not allow for real economic integration and co- operation.

Secondly, the revenue formula in that agreement, from South Africa’s point of view, led to the possibility that there would be a distortion of the moneys collected and the moneys to be paid. Against this backdrop, the International Trade Administration Bill is a progressive and forward- looking piece of legislation in making provision for consultative and democratic decision-making between South Africa and our Sacu partners in the administration of the customs union.

Clearly, in preparing to pass this Bill so soon after the signing of the new Sacu agreement, we are making impressive progress in establishing the required governance infrastructure for economic growth, integration and co- operation in our region. However, there is still a lot of work to do and we shall have occasion to debate all this when the Sacu agreements come before this House for ratification in the new year.

In conclusion, I wish to extend our sincere gratitude to both the committees of Parliament and the select committee of the NCOP for the detailed, vigilant and constructive manner in which they dealt with this Bill. I would particularly like to thank the select committee for the amendment before the House on which members are going to vote later today. I would also like to thank the stakeholders who debated, participated and made submissions to the portfolio committee and this committee during the public hearings.

And whilst I am busy with gratitudes and thanks, I would like to sincerely thank the chairperson of the committee, Mr Mohseen Moosa, a comrade and long-standing member of this Council, for leading this committee thus far. We thank him for his vigilance, his incisive remarks and his relationship with the Department of Trade and Industry in particular, which enabled him to ask the right questions at the right time, and for always keeping us on our toes in terms of this Council’s oversight task over the executive. I am hoping that as he leaves this august body to go to greener pastures, he will continue to add value to his partners, and whoever he is going to work with, in the same way that he has added value to this Council.

We are confident that in passing this Bill, this Council will be effecting a major strengthening of the necessary institutional framework for the continued growth of this economy and for mutually beneficial economic relations with our partners in Sacu. I hope that all the hon members and parties represented here are going to support this Bill. [Applause.]

Mr M V MOOSA: Chairperson, I want to thank the Deputy Minister for the kind words she expressed here. On many occasions I have had the privilege of working on historic pieces of legislation and laws that have had a very far- reaching vision and impact.

In one of my last tasks in Parliament I once again rise - and am delighted

• to move the International Trade Administration Bill before this Council for adoption. This Bill is going to change the way in which trade relations take place in South Africa and Southern Africa. It is also going to be one of the engines on which Nepad in the Southern African regions will rest.

It modernises the Board of Tariffs and Trade into a world-class trade administration in the form of Itac, the International Trade Administration Commission. Simultaneously, it designs international trade administration to catapult the Sacu trade relations into a new phase.

The new Itac will play a massive role in trade administration in the Sacu region by providing support and assistance, and will serve as an example to the other regions and customs unions in the rest of Africa within the jurisdiction of the broad Nepad principles. It also brings together eight laws into one law in a creative and innovative fashion.

Under the able leadership of a rising star in our public service, the new Deputy Director-General for International Trade and my former Cosas comrade, Mr Tshidiso Matona sitting over there, as well as Ms Nomonde Maimela, the present CEO of the Board of Tariffs and Trade, who will no doubt be the CEO of Itac - a bright, young and beautiful woman - this Bill will usher in a new era in South African trade relations and in trade relations generally. African and offshore trade are predicted to be the largest growth points in our economy over the next 10 years, and we wish Mr Matona and his colleagues well in this job.

The committees of Parliament made amendments to this law during the process of passing it through Parliament. Amongst these, we changed the name of the body from Cita to Itac, in order to reduce confusion with other bodies with similar names. An important amendment was made during the NA process, in order to take into consideration certain Cosatu viewpoints, when we refined the objects of the Bill to also include the promotion of growth, development, investment and employment in the Sacu region and in South Africa generally. Many amendments were proposed by our provinces and their committees. These were also taken on board.

I also want to briefly explain the amendment that appears before the members of the House at the moment. What happened was, during the drafting process we had the Sacu agreement which was signed about two weeks ago - members will remember seeing it in the newspapers. However, the agreement has not come into effect yet, so we have a clause in the Bill that suspends the operation of certain parts of the Bill until the Sacu agreement comes into effect.

One of those is clause 16(3) of the Bill. When we made that annotation, instead of writing 16(3), somehow they wrote 16 as a whole, leaving out the (3), with the result that we had literally suspended all the important things such as customs, duties, etc. In fact, there would have been no point in passing this Bill if we left the clause like that. So we are really just correcting that, because it was never the intention of the legislature to do that. We are correcting that by adding (3)'' after 16’’ in order to clearly explain what we are suspending, ie the Sacu agreement issues until that agreement comes into effect. We also made a number of amendments which members are aware of. Many of them are just refinements and others an attempt to work out organisational arrangements so that they work better. Some of them are just issues of a legal nature, to ensure that the Bill is not challenged in the future or that there are no loopholes through which people might slip when the Bill is effectively in operation.

I want to thank the provinces, members of our committee and provincial MPLs for all the good work they have done on this Bill. This is my second last speech in the NCOP. I have worked with the DTI for four years now. I wish to take this opportunity to thank the Deputy Minister, Ms Lindiwe Hendricks; the Minister, Mr Alec Erwin; Dr Alastair Ruiters, the Director- General; Mr Matona and Mr Rudin, the two new deputy Directors-General of the DTI; Mr Naidoo, who has been of great help to the committee and who has worked very well with this Council; and many others in the department for an engaging and exciting relationship during the past four years.

I leave the chair of the economic affairs committee with sadness and fond memories, as well as a deeper understanding of many things. This is because of the DTI, and I thank them for this. I wish them well in their important work of driving the economy to higher levels, and give them my assurance that I will be close by, continuing to work with them on some very exciting things I will also be doing along the way once I leave this place. [Applause.]

Dr E A CONROY: Chairperson, hon Deputy Minister of Trade and Industry and colleagues, the purpose of this Bill, the International Trade and Administration Bill, is to establish a new body, namely the International Trade Administration Commission, which is to regulate and administer international trade instruments. It will separate the Department of Trade and Industry’s implementation functions from its administrative and regulatory functions. It also establishes the SA Customs Union Tariff Board, which will rely on national bodies to undertake a number of supporting functions in formulating recommendations on a common external tariff and trade remedies.

Daar is reeds ‘n lang aanloop tot die wetsontwerp wat vandag ter tafel lê. Die wetsontwerp vloei voort uit die Republiek se politieke en ekonomiese beleidsverpligtinge en keuses waarvoor hy direk na die eerste demokratiese verkiesing te staan gekom het, naamlik ekonomiese hervorming waarmee ‘n gesonde ekonomiese onderbou deur middel van vervaardiging en uitvoere verseker kon word; ‘n hervormde handels- en tariefbeleid as grondslag vir die bevordering van doeltreffendheid en mededingendheid wat weer op hul beurt, as gevolg van laer koste en pryse, ‘n heilsame invloed op die land se algemene welvaart sou hê; en die demokratisering van Suid-Afrika se verhoudings met sy onmiddellike bure, naamlik die BLNS-landstate met wie ons ‘n gemeenskaplike doeanegebied deel, wat die heronderhandeling van die Suider-Afrikaanse Doeane-unieooreenkoms van 1969 nodig gemaak het.

Die bekragtiging van die Wêreldhandelsorganisasie-ooreenkomste in 1995, asook ooreenkomste tussen die Europese Unie en die Suider-Afrikaanse Ontwikkelings- en Ekonomiese Gemeenskap vir die bevordering van uitvoere, inwaartse beleggings en streeksintegrasie, was ook verdere aansporings vir die voortsetting van die tariefhervormingsproses.

Die beleidsbenadering ten opsigte van handels- en tariefhervorming het onder andere ook ten doel om laer beskermingsvlakke vir insette in die vorm van kapitaalgoedere en grondstowwe, asook vir uitsette in die vorm van vervaardigde goedere te verleen sodat Suid-Afrikaanse firmas in staat gestel word om hul insette op wêreldmarke te verkry en sodoende weer in die plaaslike en wêreldmark met hul produkte mee te ding. Ten einde hierdie doelwitte te bereik, is dit ook nodig dat die doeanetariefstruktuur verder vereenvoudig word - waarvoor Suid-Afrika in 1995 ‘n onderneming in die Wêreldhandelsorganisasie gegee het. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)

[There has already been a long run-up to the Bill that is being tabled today. The Bill emanates from the Republic’s political and economic policy obligations and choices that it was faced with directly after the first democratic elections, namely economic transformation that could ensure a healthy economic substructure through production and exports; a transformed trade and tariff policy as the basis for promoting efficacy and competition which in turn will have, due to lower costs and prices, a beneficial influence on the country’s general prosperity; and the democratisation of South Africa’s relationships with its immediate neighbours, namely the BLNS states with whom we share a common customs territory, that has made it necessary to renegotiate the 1969 Southern African Customs Agreement.

The ratification of the World Trade Organisation Agreements in 1995, as well as agreements between the European Union and the Southern African Development and Economic Community for the promotion of exports, inward investments and regional integration were also further incentives for the continuation of the tariff transformation process.

The policy approach regarding trade and tariff transformation is also aimed at rendering lower protection levels for inputs in the form of capital goods and raw materials, compared to that for outputs in the form of produced goods in order to enable South African firms to procure their inputs on world markets and in this way to compete again with their products in the local and world markets. To realise these objectives, it is also necessary for the customs tariff structure to be simplified even more

• for which South Africa has given an undertaking in 1995 in the World Trade Organisation.]

This Bill seeks to provide a framework to carry out South Africa’s legal obligations under the Southern African Customs Union Agreement and to establish the International Trade Administration Commission, which will carry out the investigation and adjudication of international trade applications or complaints in the Republic. It also repeals the existing Board of Tariffs and Trade Act and the present Import and Export Control Act. The responsibility for issuing import and export permits will be assigned to the Itac.

The New NP agrees with the establishment of an efficient and effective system for the administration of international trade, which will foster economic growth and industrial development in South Africa and within Sacu.

Before I end my speech, I would also like to add my good wishes to my colleague, Mohseen Moosa, in his new endeavours. I want to tell him to go out and make lots of money! [Laughter].

We support this Bill. [Applause.]

Mr E S MBATHA (KwaZulu-Natal): Chairperson, hon Deputy Minister and hon members of the Council, I think it is proper, before I make my speech, to actually thank the hon Minister for introducing this wonderful piece of legislation to the nation.

South Africa has since 1994 been part and parcel of the globalised community of nations, and a leading economic and social force in the Southern African region and the African continent. The Department of Trade and Industry, in its effort to enhance its delivery capacity, has introduced the International Trade Administration Bill of 2002. This Bill has been designed to separate the DTI’s implementation functions from its administrative and regulatory functions, and is in line with up-to-date international trends.

It is a Bill that streamlines the legal obligations of our country under the Sacu agreement. It repeals a number of important Bills, such as the Board of Tariffs and Trade Act, Act 107 of 1986, and the Import and Export Control Act, Act 45 of 1963. The main innovation of the new Bill is the creation of a new body, the International Trade Administration Commission, Itac, as an independent body that will regulate and administer international trade instruments.

Its main responsibilities are very wide and varied, and deal with alleged dumping, subsidised exports and disruptive competition. It also investigates and evaluates applications for amendment of custom duties, as well as the evaluation of issuing of permits in respect of rebates and certificates in terms of the Customs and Excise Act or import and export control permits.

The proposed Itac will have a full-time Chief Commissioner and Deputy Chief Commissioner, as well as up to 10 additional full-time members and part- time commissioners. Its independence is guaranteed, and it is authorised to deal with established bodies in terms of the Sacu agreement.

It is up to Itac to investigate and evaluate applications received in terms of the various existing laws which need to be in accordance with the Sacu Tariffs Board regulations. General standards are set out regarding various processes, especially the dumping of goods. It will also carry out investigations and inspections, including searches. There are a number of stringent conditions regarding the enforcement of the Bill through standard offence provisions, especially regarding unauthorised disclosure of confidential information and other such offences.

The setting up of Itac and the implementation of the Sacu agreement will have serious financial implications for the country, as new structures mean that additional funds will be required. The present calculations do not stipulate figures for the years to come, as South Africa may bear the costs of additional adjustments to the BLNS states. It is hoped that future negotiations between the Minister of Finance of our country and the Ministers of the respective member states will be to our benefit. If the Bill becomes law during the present financial year, a separate budget will become a necessity as the body will be separate from the DTI.

Several state departments and Ministries were consulted in respect of this Bill, such as the National Treasury, the Department of Agriculture, the Department of Foreign Affairs, the SA Revenue Service, the Competition Commission and Nedlac.

However, it is felt that there are several stakeholders that should have been consulted, as the Bill will most likely have repercussions in terms of dumping, environmental imbalances, import and export regulations, and the like. It is strongly felt that the private sector, universities and other researchers in the field, as well as NGOs and trade unions should have been widely consulted.

We feel strongly that the Bill has the potential to streamline the implementation mechanisms of the DTI in the years to come. Despite the feeling that the new proposed mechanisms will possibly further bureaucratise the DTI, I just want to be on record as saying that KwaZulu- Natal strongly supports the Bill. [Applause.]

Mnr J L THERON: Agbare Voorsitter, Adjunk-Minister en kollegas, hierdie wetsontwerp voorsien ‘n meer effektiewe wetlike en regulerende raamwerk vir internasionale handel, veral wat betref ‘n doeane-unie. Die wetsontwerp stig ‘n onafhanklike Kommissie vir Internasionale Handel en Administrasie, of KIHA, om internasionale handel en tariewe tussen lede van die doeane- unie lede te reguleer en te administreer.

Die doelwit van die wetsontwerp is om ekonomiese groei en ontwikkeling in Suider-Afrika te versterk en om inkomstevlakke, indiensneming en investering te verhoog deur ‘n effektiewe en doeltreffende stelsel vir internasionale handel daar te stel. Die Demokratiese Party ondersteun natuurlik hierdie doelwitte en sal alles in ons vermoë doen om te help dat hierdie doelwitte realiseer.

Die Suider-Afrika doeane-unie het natuurlik baie voordele vir Suid-Afrika: Die totale mark het ongeveer 6 miljoen mense wat groter afset moontlik maak; ‘n bruto binnelandse produk van meer as R60 biljoen; Suid-Afrika se uitvoere na die res van die unie is meer as R29 biljoen; invoer vanaf die unie is meer as R7 biljoen; die doeane-unie help mee om ekonomiese en politieke stabiliteit in Suider-Afrika te bevorder; en die doeane-unie verskaf ‘n platform vir groter internasionale ekonomiese integrasie.

Hierdie voordele kan natuurlik verder uitgebou word deur ‘n meer effektiewe internasionale handelsraamwerk wat hierdie wetsontwerp se doelwit is.

Die belangrikste of sleutelbepalings van die wetsontwerp sluit in: Behou die vrye handel tussen die doeane-unielede en gee gemeenskaplike tariewe vir handel; pas die inkomste uit die doeane-unie aan; stig nuwe instellings om die doeane-unie te administreer en te implementeer; voorsien die doeane- unie van ‘n hoofkwartier en voorsien ‘n gemeenskaplike beleid oor handel, doeane, landbou, industrie, mededinging en ‘n dispuut- beslegtigingsmeganisme. Die Demokratiese Party ondersteun al hierdie genoemde sleutelbepalings en vertrou dat die voordele van hierdie wetsontwerp sal realiseer, en daarom ondersteun ons dit graag.

Ek wil graag ook afsluit deur die agb Mohseen Moosa sterkte toe te wens vir die nuwe weivelde wat hy gaan betree, en ons hoop is dat hierdie nuwe weivelde vir hom baie vrugbaar sal wees. (Translation of Afrikaans speech follows.)

[Mr J L THERON: Hon Chairperson, Deputy Minister and colleagues, this Bill offers a more effective legal and regulatory framework for international trade, particularly in respect of a customs union. The Bill establishes an independent Commission for International Trade and Administration, or ITAC, so as to regulate and administer international trade and tariffs between customs union members.

The objective of the Bill is to reinforce economic growth and development in Southern Africa, and to increase income levels, employment and investment by establishing an effective and efficient system for international trade. Of course, the DP supports these objectives and we will do everything in our power to help realise them.

Of course, the Southern African customs union has many advantages for South Africa: The total market involves about 6 million people, which makes a larger sale turnover possible; a gross domestic product of over R60 billion; South Africa’s exports to the rest of the union amount to over R29 billion; imports from the union stand at R7 billion; the customs union assists in promoting economic and political stability in Southern Africa; and the customs union provides a platform for increased world economic integration.

These advantages can of course be extended through a more effective international trade framework, which is the objective of this Bill.

The most important or key provisions of the Bill include: Retain free trade between customs union members and extend joint trade tariffs; adjust the revenue from the customs union; establish new institutions to administer and implement the customs union; provide the customs union with headquarters and provide a joint policy on trade, customs, agriculture, industry, competition and a dispute settlement mechanism. The DP supports all of the said key provisions and trusts that the advantages of this Bill will be realised, and we therefore gladly support it.

I would like to conclude by wishing the hon Mohseen Moosa well regarding the new pastures that he is about to set foot on, and we hope that these new pastures will be very fertile for him.]

Mr R Z NOGUMLA: Chair, hon Deputy Minister and hon members, we are living in an era where physical borders between countries are eroding. Central to that is the international trade that takes place between countries through their imports and exports.

In the times that we live in, no country can truly survive without trading with others, because the reality is that today’s economic success of any country is not only linked to, but also depends on how well that nation trades with other nations.

It is true that the challenges facing economies, in particular developing economies, are to improve the quality of life of their citizens; to increase job opportunities; and to ensure economic growth which is sustainable. International trade plays a very important role in that regard. How it is administered is even more fundamental. Therefore, it is the object of this Bill to foster economic growth and development in order to raise incomes and promote investment and employment in the Republic and within the customs area by establishing an efficient and effective system for the administration of international trade.

It is a fact that globalisation comes with its own challenges. With countries trading among each other comes problems such as those of dumping, drug smuggling - the list is endless. These are, therefore, some of the reasons why international trade needs to be administered. This Bill is based, among others, on that premise.

Dumping, which refers to the introduction of goods into the Republic or in the common customs area at an export price that is less than the normal value of those goods, is bad for any economy that seeks to flourish and for developing countries in particular, which many a times are victims of dumping and often bear the consequences. It is thus important to put laws in place that protect their democracies against dumping. Therefore, by improving on the administration of our trade, we also protect our economy against the consequences of dumping.

This Bill further provides for the International Trade Administration Commission to investigate and evaluate alleged subsidised exports and disruptive competition with this amendment and for the Commission to monitor, review and report to the Minister on matters that may be assigned to it from time to time.

To conclude, if trade is properly administered in any economy, the economic environment becomes more viable for business and investment, as well as the growth of local industries, in particular infant industries, thus further contributing to the prosperity of that economy.

The ANC supports this Bill and also encourages all the members of this Council to do so. [Applause.]

Mr E RASOOL (Western Cape): Mr Chairperson, Deputy Minister and colleagues, I think the International Trade and Administration Bill comes at about the right time for South Africa, and more so for the Western Cape. In a rapidly globalising world we - particularly in this province, but elsewhere as well

• have gone through the pain of the deregulation tariffs, especially in sectors like the clothing and textile industry.

However, I think even that industry is beginning to see that we are going to reap the benefits of inserting ourselves fully into a new international trade regime. We have done that through the process of repositioning key industries like the clothing industry in particular, as well as the wine industry in the Western Cape, so as to utilise the opportunities available for international trade. The full exploitation of key international trade agreements for exports, in particular, and the favourable exchange rate have helped in our general connectivity with the world. We also import products from the rest of the world. We understand that, at this point, this Bill helps us to enhance our trade capacity and to also defend ourselves against negative trade practices such as dumping, which has been spoken about before. We are saying that it comes at the right time, because it replaces outdated legislation with regard to administrating trade.

So what we are saying is that for the administrative procedures to give effect to the SA Customs Union agreement and to set up a regional commission for international trade administration, it is absolutely critical to set out the procedures, particularly those detailed in Chapter 4 of the Bill, which we believe is generally well thought out and are solid in their approach.

However, there is one area of concern that we do have, and that is that the procedure is likely to take approximately six months to take effect. This is acceptable in usual circumstances, but we believe that for us to move rapidly and utilise the full effect of this Bill, there may be certain exceptional or urgent circumstances that may require some fast-tracking. We are hoping that that will be dealt with in some way or other.

We are also encouraged by the fact that this Bill has passed through a number of relevant stakeholder entities, including Nedlac, which means that their concerns have also been addressed. We also think - even though we support the Bill - that we need to create an independent body to regulate and administer international trade, as well as establish a Southern African customs union tariff board. We think that that would be useful, because it would allow Government to get on with its core task of implementing trade policy and strategies, and ensuring that there is concomitant growth.

We need to bring out - this is not spelt out clearly in the definitions, but we are not, at this point, recommending any amendments to it - the fact that independence refers to the perceived professional conduct of the commission, in the sense that no member of the commission or party related to the fulfilling of any tasks that are in the interest of the commission should have any direct or indirect business or personal relationship with the parties applying for any matter to be considered by the commission.

We also want to further enhance the discussion around the notion of experts that is contained in the Bill, which we think should represent the interests of important sectors or provinces. That specialist interest and knowledge about the different sectors or even, for that matter, the provinces should be contained in the definition of an expert.

It is in that context that I feel fairly happy that both our standing committee at the provincial level and our economics cluster within the Western Cape government have full confidence in this Bill.

On behalf of the Western Cape, we support the Bill without any amendments. [Applause.]

Mr K D S DURR: Mr Chairperson, may I just add my congratulations and that of my party to our colleague, Mr Moosa, who goes off now to earn his bread and an honest day’s living in the private sector. We wish him well. We hope that we will see him here from time to time, and he knows that he will always have friends here.

My hon colleague, Mr Theron, talked about the balance of trade between us and the BLLS countries, and he spoke about a favourable balance of trade. This is quite interesting, if one looks at that, because not only do we have a favourable balance of trade with them, but the quality of our trade is very good in the sense that we export to them much more value-added goods than we do to Europe, South East Asia and so on. [Interjections.]

The benefits for them, of course, is the fact that they are getting the economies of scale of access to our economy, because many of them are landlocked micro states with small populations. Of course, they also do not have access to a home market, effectively making South Africa their home market. Without access to such a market, they would never be able to develop at all.

They also have the economies of scale of our infrastructure. For example, they have access to the cheapest electric power in the world. Were they to generate their own power, it would be 10 times the price they are paying. So there is a huge trade-off. There are huge benefits for everybody concerned.

There are conflicts because, to date, when South Africa raised high tariffs to protect the industry in South Africa, the trade-off for them was that they would receive the benefits of those tariffs. Up to 80% of some of these countries’ budgets were income from that pool.

Of course, as we reduce and continue to implode the tariffs, so their incomes will come down, but hopefully this will be balanced by an increase in economic activity. We should also encourage people to locate new investors with greenfields operations in those countries.

From the private sector’s point of view, we will continue to need decisions that must be professional, swift and accessible. I like the fast-track device that the amendment is bringing in. It is essential, because if there is dumping, nobody can wait for eight, nine months or even a year for a group of Ministers to meet. It is impossible. The industry does not function like that.

Also, the border posts will have to be very effective and efficient. It is going to mean upgrading, not only of our own, but also perhaps some of our neighbours’ borders in the level of efficiency, effectiveness, training and so on. I see in the Revenue Bill that we passed in the committee this morning that there is a provision for a multinational customs device whereby a country can have one border post for two or more countries, so that the public does not have to go through two border posts simultaneously.

So there is going to be a great need for training and upgrading because not only does the border of South Africa now become the outer parameter of the BMLS, but we also have to protect our international agreements, for example our agreements with America.

America opened their most favoured agreements to South Africa, and not to India or China who want to locate their factories here in South Africa in order to get under the tariff wall in America by sewing labels into garments in our part of the world. I am sure the hon Minister is aware of that, but it is something one can only cure if one has an effective customs regime, so that training will be very important indeed.

However, we support this legislation. It is good legislation which brings us closer, from our point of view. It also builds our market size and, although it is small in relation to our total market, at the margins it is very important. As the hon Minister knows, it is at the margins where one’s production is the most profitable. We support the legislation. [Applause.]

Ms M P THEMBA: Chairperson, Deputy Minister, hon members, we in Mpumalanga welcome the introduction of the International Trade Administration Bill for reasons that will be explained hereafter. Hon members will recall that the South African Custom Union, as implemented by the apartheid regime prior to the ascension to power of the ANC-led Government in 1994, highlighted a number of serious problems.

Amongst them was a formula-based sharing of the proceeds of trade between the Sacu members. This membership included the so-called TBVC states, which were essentially and factually part of South Africa. The formula was therefore skewed in favour of South Africa, which led to the continued but unfair economic domination of South Africa over all the other members. The earnings of the workers from what was then called the neighbouring states from the mines of South Africa were part of the formula. Surely these earning were not part of the trade?

As a result of this formula-based agreement other members, except South Africa, were not encouraged to develop their export potential and became increasingly dependent on South Africa for most of their consumer needs. It is therefore commendable that the object of the Bill, as clearly stated, is to foster economic growth and the development of industry in the Republic and within the common custom area.

As a province which shares borders with two SADC countries, namely Swaziland and Mozambique, and a province with a strong industrial base, we welcome the following provisions in the Bill. Firstly, the Minister’s power to regulate imports and exports: The dumping of foreign cheap goods into the local economy has serious economic repercussions. For example, prices in the local market become distorted, demand is affected and local production stagnates. The only winner in this instance is the foreign country which is dumping.

Secondly, the establishment and functions of the Commission for International Trade Administration: The commission is independent and subject only to the Constitution and the law. This will ensure impartiality and fairness in the dispensing of its mandate, especially with regard to customs duty, antidumping, countervailing duties and other functions. We note with appreciation that the Bill provides for the sharing of information with Sacu institutions and member states. This provision, in our view, will ensure that the playing fields of knowledge and information is indeed levelled, and that in the process cordial relations are established and maintained. The maintenance of such relations will require enforcement. For legislation to be effectively and efficiently implemented, there should be enforcement mechanisms in place.

In conclusion, it is in the interests of the masses of the province to eradicate poverty and grow the economy. This can only be achieved through this Bill. We in Mpumalanga support the International Trade and Administration Bill. [Applause.]

Mrs C NKUNA: Chairperson, hon Deputy Minister, hon members, the object of the Bill is very crucial to the provinces as it focuses on fostering economic growth and development in order to raise incomes and promote investment and employment in the Republic and within the common customs area. Therefore, those who will receive anything from this Bill will, without any doubt, be our provinces. It is a fact that trade is important in any democracy. Furthermore, the administration of trade is even more important, for if not administered, the result will be drastic to the economic growth of that democracy.

Allow me to highlight some points of interest from our province, Limpopo. The very first point is that we are interested in the marketing regulations for agricultural products that are to be put in place, as our economy in Limpopo largely rests on agriculture. Secondly, we are also interested in the protection of the infant industry as opposed to the survival of the fittest, looking at the number of years that are given to that particular industry. We are also looking forward to the antidumping, countervailling and safeguarding measures that are supposed to be put in place by this Bill.

Let us now look at the institutional set-up. The Council of Ministers will be the supreme decision-making body and will be working with the commission

• a tribunal which will be composed of an independent body of experts. We are also looking at where the secretariat is going to be located. Of greatest importance is the revenue-sharing formula, the management of the revenue pool and then the determination of the excise duties. We as the Limpopo province are also looking at the transitional measures that are supposed to be put in place and the determination of the old agreement that the Deputy Minister alluded to not long ago. This Bill further tightens the bond and economic relations with our neighbours, as it provides for the implementation of certain aspects of the Southern African Customs Union, Sacu, agreement in the Republic. It further makes provision, within the framework of the Sacu agreement, for the continued control of the import and export of goods and the amendment of custom duties.

It is important to note that some provinces are directly linked to the neighbouring countries. For instance, my province strategically shares borders with Botswana, Zimbabwe and Mozambique, which are some of our important trading partners in the Southern Sahara. Botswana is also part of the Southern African Customs Union. Therefore, I would not be pompous if I say that my province prides itself on its strategic location which is viable for economic activity, hence the change from Northern Province to Limpopo.

It is not called the gateway to the rest of Africa for no reason. The international airport at Polokwane, which is on its way to becoming the gateway to Africa, is contributing to our economic development, linking us to our neighbours, and is central to our trade relations and development. To us the Maputo Corridor, which will be a major route, will link the province directly to the Mozambican port, creating development and trade opportunities, particularly in the province. It is important to note that the province link with Maputo has been declared the main corridor.

Diverse and internationally renowned mining operations contribute 20% of the value of Limpopo’s economic production, making this the primary driver of economic activity after the government services. Substantial mineral reserves include the platinum group metals, diamonds, coal, chrome, iron, iron ore and copper. The province exports primary products and imports goods and services. It is an attractive location for investors. An extensive range of economic activities in this province serves the widely dispersed population and also caters for the needs of its neighbours.

The Limpopo province’s investment initiative, the province’s official marketing and investment promotion authority, assist investors to access project finance; obtain exports and imports, targeting mining; agro processing and eco-tourism. Owing to the above facts, I am sure that one can see the important role that trade is playing and can play in my province. Therefore, by establishing the International Trade Administration Commission, Itac, whose function will include the investigation and evaluation of alleged dumping, subsidised export and disruptive competition, this … [Time expired.] [Applause.]

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF TRADE AND INDUSTRY: Chairperson, I would like to thank the hon members who spoke on this Bill and explained the details thereof. Indeed, as they have noted, this is by far the most advanced form of economic integration on the African continent and, frankly, as a structure it probably rates with any other structure in the world today because of its comparative and participative dimensions.

I would like to say that I could not agree more with the comments made by Dr Conroy. I thank him for the detail on the restructuring of our economy from an inward to an outward-looking one, with very positive spinoffs.

I also thank Mr Mbatha for the detailed information on the composition and the duties of the commission. Indeed he is correct in saying that, whilst we have a budget for Seta, more money will be needed in order to set up the institutions that are required by this legislation. I would not agree with him, though, that more consultation would have improved this piece of legislation.

It is our view that the Bill has undergone extensive consultation with members of both Houses of Parliament, as well as all the stakeholders that are relevant to the Bill and to its substance. It is also our view that there must be a balance between consultation, getting to work and implementation. So we are very confident that the inputs of stakeholders have been taken into account by the committees and are actually effected in the amendments that are part of the Bill.

I have noted the comments of Mr Rasool. Indeed, they are very useful comments. I think some of them have been taken care of by the amendments, but most of them will be dealt with in terms of the regulations that will form part of the implementation of this legislation.

Mr Durr’s comments are noted. Indeed, whilst we have said the balance of trade between us and our BLS neighbours is favourable, it is not always healthy to have a favourable balance with one’s trading partners. So he is correct to say in his own breath that we ourselves need to ensure that we help our partners to actually improve and diversify their own production.

It is our duty as South Africans to help our partners, not only in the BLS region, but also those in the SADC region, to try to improve their own industrial base, to move to manufacturing, to diversify their production, and to beneficiate their products so that at the end of the day there is a balance in terms of intra-Africa trade.

Having said that, I would like to thank all hon members for their support for this Bill. [Applause.]

Debate concluded.

Question put: That the following amendment be agreed to: That clause 64(2) of the International Trade Administration Bill [B38D-2002] be amended by substituting 16'' in line 31 of page 25 with16(3)’’.

Declaration of vote:

Ms J L KGOALI: Chairperson, the hon members must know that we come from different provinces and we do not have ancestors who will speak on behalf of other provinces. Owing to the short notice that the province of Gauteng has been given, we are unable to adopt the amendments because they were not processed on time in the legislature.

Therefore the Gauteng province, unfortunately, is unable to vote for or against the Bill, due to the problem that I have cited.

IN FAVOUR OF: Eastern Cape, Free State, KwaZulu-Natal, Mpumalanga, Northern Cape, Northern Province, North West, Western Cape.

ABSTAIN: Gauteng.

Amendment accordingly agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.

Question put: That the Bill, as amended, be agreed to.

Declaration of vote:

Ms J L KGOALI: Chairperson, Gauteng still stands by its position.

IN FAVOUR OF: Eastern Cape, Free State, KwaZulu-Natal, Mpumalanga, Northern Cape, Northern Province, North West, Western Cape.

ABSTAIN: Gauteng.

Bill, as amended, accordingly agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.

                       PATENTS AMENDMENT BILL

            (Consideration of Bill and of Report thereon)

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF TRADE AND INDUSTRY: Chairperson, hon members, the second amendments that I am presenting to the House today are the ones proposed to the Patents Act. These amendments are largely technical.

However, there is one major substantive amendment proposed. I will first present the technical amendments, and thereafter the substantive amendments. The proposed technical amendments relate primarily to clarifying sections of the Act that are either inconsistent or unclear. These are the following.

Sections 32 and 61 require amendments to bring the wording of the Act in line with that of article 29(1) of the TRIPS Agreement. It is proposed that various clauses under section 43 be amended with an insertion of the words ``National phase of an international application’’. This will clarify the relationship that South African patent registrations have with the process of international applications.

Further, there are changes proposed to several sections to ensure the consistent use of language. Some sections refer to the disposal of a patent, whereas others refer to the sale of a patented article. Further, certain sections require amendment as they refer to a section of the Act which was amended in 1997. As a result of the amendments they are now referring to the correct section of the Act.

The second area I referred to earlier is the substantive change to the Act. This relates to section 69(a) of the Act on the introduction of the early working of a patent. The purpose of this amendment is primarily to facilitate access to cheaper medication, as well as to promote our local pharmaceutical industry. As the Patents Act currently stands, no one may conduct research into or develop an alternative to a product with an active patent.

Also, products may not be approved by the relevant authority, such as the Medicines Control Council, before the patent expires. For example, when a particular medicine has an active patent, no generic substitute may be developed in South Africa until the patent expires. Furthermore, no drug may be registered or approved during this period. This has the effect of extending the term of the patent by the period that it takes to register a new drug or a generic substitute.

It, furthermore, disadvantages our domestic industry, as many foreign firms do not have to wait for the expiry of the patents in their own countries and can start conducting research and developing the products. Once the patent expires in South Africa, they can register the substitute with the MCC and import their product as soon as it is approved. However, our local industry can only begin to research and develop an alternative product when the patent has expired, as they cannot obtain access to the specification of the medicines. They are placed at a disadvantage in comparison with our international producers of generic medicines.

The amendment seeks to allow research and development, as well as the registration of products to be allowed during the time of the patent, as long as that is done for noncommercial use. Similar provisions are applied in international jurisdictions such the USA, Canada, Australia, the EU, India and Israel. In some countries these provisions have been coupled with the extension of patents for the period that approval takes or the exclusivity of data for a particular period of time.

These amendments do not propose similar provisions, as data exclusivity should be dealt with by the relevant approval authority, such as the MCC. More work is required to determine whether patent term extension is required. However, our initial assessment was that it was not necessary. As the Department of Trade and Industry we will engage further with the industry and the MCC in this regard.

In conclusion, the proposed amendments are in line with international practice and the TRIPS Agreement. They seek to facilitate access to cheaper medicines on the one hand, and to promote our local pharmaceutical industry on the other.

I table the amendments before this House. [Applause.]

Debate concluded.

Bill agreed to in accordance with section 75 of the Constitution.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr M J Mahlangu): Order! I have been informed that the Whips have agreed that there will be one debate for the third, fourth and fifth Orders of the Day.

                   MEDICAL SCHEMES AMENDMENT BILL

           MEDICINES AND RELATED SUBSTANCES AMENDMENT BILL

       OCCUPATIONAL DISEASES IN MINES AND WORKS AMENDMENT BILL

           (Consideration of Bills and of Reports thereon)

The MINISTER OF HEALTH: Chairperson, it was indeed a pleasant surprise for me when I learnt that the NCOP had decided to debate these three Bills. They could not have taken a better decision, because even though these are three separate Bills, they are closely related and are the cornerstones of the transformation of the health sector in our country. The ANC promised the people of South Africa universal access to affordable health care and these Bills go a long way towards achieving this objective.

The first Bill that I would like to address is the Medicines and Related Substances Amendment Bill. Hon members will recall this Bill’s particular history in South Africa and the world as a whole. We passed Act 90 of 1997 in this Council, but were held to ransom by the pharmaceutical industry. This ended up in a long and drawn-out court battle, but at the end of the day a last-minute settlement justified our firm adherence to these principles.

I would like to outline very briefly the key principles that are enshrined in the Bill which I am asking the hon members to approve. The overall objective of this Bill is to ensure that all South Africans have access to safe, efficacious and quality medicines at affordable costs. Among others, this will be achieved through generic substitution. When a patient purchases medicine from a pharmacy, the pharmacist is obliged to inform the patient of any cheaper and equivalent generic drug and that he is free to exercise his choice regarding which medicine he wants to buy. The public is often deceived and swayed to believe that generic medicines are cheap because they are of a poor quality and not as effective as brand-name drugs. I want to tell hon members now that nothing could be further from the truth. Those whose profits are threatened by this Bill resist this progressive change and are responsible for spreading this propaganda. The Bill promotes the rational use of medicine by prescribers, dispensers and patients through provision of the necessary training, education and information. Anyone who is licensed to dispense medicines will therefore be obliged to attend a course to learn about good dispensing practices. The Bill makes it very difficult for the prescriber and the dispenser of medicines to be influenced by pharmaceutical companies through perverse incentives. This means that there will be no incentive for a doctor to prescribe for a patient a specific medicine for any reason, because this is a drug of choice for the condition of the patient and this Bill therefore eliminates these perversive incentives.

The Bill promotes the local production of medicines, which means that medicines should be cheaper, while supporting local production means that one supports local economic development, including the creation of jobs, to grow our economy. The Bill will also make it possible for the Medicines Control Council to work effectively and efficiently. The Medicines Control Council is the body that is appointed by the Minister to register all medicines that are introduced into our country. This is a body comprising scientists and experts with diverse skills which are necessary to do this work effectively, using technically sound and objective criteria and guidelines to license medicines and clinical trials.

Only last week the National Assembly passed an amendment to the Patents Act and this Council has just done so too. This amendment will promote the early introduction of generic medicines into the market and this is an important step towards the promotion of local manufacture of generic medicines. The Medicines and Related Substances Amendment Bill will also facilitate the appointment of a pricing committee that will introduce a transparent pricing system which will clearly indicate the price, the professional fee and the wholesale and distribution fees. This will assist the Department of Health in identifying the major cost drivers of medicine prices and introduce measures to contain them. I implore hon members to support this Bill before us today.

Similarly, I would like them to consider the Medical Schemes Amendment Bill which is also before this Council. This amendment Bill will strengthen the legislative framework to protect consumers in the medical schemes environment. Health care brokers are an integral component of the medical schemes environment and, to the extent that brokers conduct their business professionally and are motivated by the best interests of the clients they serve, they can significantly advance the policy objectives of the Medical Schemes Act and contribute to a stable and sustainable medical schemes environment. However, if professional standards are allowed to slip and if perverse financial and other incentives influence the advice and service providers by brokers, negative repercussions are experienced by consumers and the medical schemes industry as a whole.

The purpose of this legislation therefore is to ensure that the incentives of brokers are as far as possible aligned with interests of the consumers they serve, and that brokers are awarded appropriately for genuine value added. The Medical Schemes Amendment Bill, read in conjunction with the Financial Advisory and Intermediary Services Bill, commonly known as the FAIS Bill, will go a long way towards ensuring that professional and minimum ethical standards are maintained among brokers and that the incentives of brokers are aligned with the interests of their clients. I would therefore like to assure the hon members that this Bill is absolutely in compliance with and complementary to the FAIS Bill.

I would like to discuss the Occupational Diseases in Mines and Works Amendment Bill. In the past occupational health was treated as a Cinderella service. Over 1 million workers who die from work-related diseases and injuries throughout the world annually demonstrate this fact. In South Africa the burden of disease resulting from working in the mines is unacceptably high. Approximately 25 000 compensation applications are received annually for occupational lung diseases resulting from working in the mines. Types of diseases that commonly occur are silicosis, asbestosis, coal mines pneumoconiosis and chronic obstruction of the airways - diseases which are caused by inhaling dust in the mines.

In order to continually improve the efficiency of the system and prevent backlogs, consultations were held with relevant stakeholders. In 1997 a tripartite committee was convened to do this work. This committee consisted of the following stakeholders: the National Union of Mineworkers; the Mineworkers Union; the Chamber of Mines; and the Departments of Health and of Minerals and Energy. The primary task of the tripartite committee was to consider sections of the Occupational Diseases in Mines and Works Act which affected its efficient administration. This was necessitated by amendments to the Act in 1994 which made its interpretation and administration a bit difficult. The tripartite committee made three important recommendations.

The first amendment relates to the change in the period for re-examination of ex-mineworkers. Currently the Act states that an ex-mineworker can be re- examined, but the Director of the Medical Bureau of Occupational Diseases can refuse this request if the period of re-examination is less than six months. However, research by the WHO on public health surveillance and International Labour Organisation standards indicate that the 6-month- period is too short and needs to be extended to 24 months due to the slow progression of the compensatable diseases which are not detectable by x-ray within a short period of six months. In addition, the frequent exposure to 6-monthly x-rays negatively affects the health of the individual. Furthermore, there is a safeguard in this amendment Bill, which states that if a doctor has seen the ex-miner and has given a letter of referral, the 24-month period does not apply. The second amendment relates to the issue of who is responsible for the payment of the medical costs of the ex-mineworker. Section 36A of the principal Act is amended to provide that the owner of a controlled mine or a works shall from the date of commencement of a compensatable disease pay the legitimate and proven costs related to medical care incurred by or on behalf of a person in his or her service, or who was in his service at the commencement of a compensatable disease. The Bill places the responsibility for compensation on the employer of a mine where the disease was contracted, even if the mineworker has moved to work for another employer.

The third amendment relates to problems we have been experiencing by the unscrupulous behaviour of certain persons representing or assisting people who are claiming compensation. More often than not, these people who assist ex-mineworkers end up with the lion’s share of what is awarded to the claimants. This Bill makes it a criminal offence for any person who assists a mineworker in claiming compensation to charge exorbitant fees. It does so by setting a limit of 0.5% of the payable amount as the maximum that can be taken by the intermediary.

I now put before the Council these three Bills. By approving the Medicines and Related Substances Amendment Bill, all South Africans will have access to affordable, safe, efficacious and quality medicines. By approving the Medical Schemes Amendment Bill, the practices of brokers will be regulated in line with our health policy objectives and the ethical guidelines set out by the Financial Services Board. And finally, by approving the Occupational Diseases in Mines and Works Amendment Bill, we will ensure that mineworkers will enjoy better health care and compensation when they contract diseases in their work environment.

I would like to take this opportunity to thank the team of officials from my department, led by the Director-General Dr A N Tsaluba, for their sterling work and their contribution to the effecting of these amendments. Let me also express my deepest appreciation to the Select Committee on Social Services for debating these Bills and coming to an agreement on the proposed amendments. In a special way I would like to congratulate the hon Ms Jacobus, chairperson of this committee, for her leadership and facilitation of a very robust debate in the select committee. I implore this Council to support these three important amendment Bills to ensure that all South Africans, and in particular the mineworker, have universal access to basic health care and are protected from unscrupulous practitioners in the health care sector. [Applause.]

Ms L JACOBUS: Chairperson, I am being intimidated by colleagues here at the back.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: You are very much protected. Dr Conroy, please do not intimidate the member!

Ms L JACOBUS: Chairperson, hon Minister and members of the House - I am not sure if there are still special delegates around - all three Bills under discussion today reflect minor amendments on paper, but with significant and far-reaching consequences for our people.

These three Bills reflect the commitment of this Government to accessible and affordable health care in order to improve the quality of life of its citizens. In speaking about these three Bills, I will just highlight aspects thereof which I thought would be of importance for the House to note - and I am convinced that the Minister must have a spy in my office, because it so happens that every time when we speak here our speeches are almost identical! I am convinced that the Ministry must be getting the information from somewhere! [Interjections.]

On the Occupational Diseases in Mines and Works Amendment Bill, the Minister has covered all the areas I wanted to cover in my speech and that will be captured in Hansard, so I will not dwell on those. May I then be allowed to talk about the Medicines and Related Substances Amendment Bill.

To begin with, I would like to highlight some of the principal tenets of our national draft policy, which is of particular importance to this amending Bill. Firstly, the establishment of the registration process ensures the safety, high quality and efficacy of our drugs. Secondly, the prescription of medicines by their generic names in both the public and private sector or in our institutions is encouraged.

The first amendment of the Bill relates to the insertion of two definitions, ie the definitions of magistrate and practitioner. This is basically done to bring them in line with some of our more recent legislation, therefore I will not dwell on those. Amongst the more substantive amendments is the following: Firstly, the marketing of medicines. The Minister also alluded to that area. This amendment provides for the Minister to make regulations to provide for the marketing of medicines and an enforceable code of practice relating to this. This, of course, will be done after consultation with the relevent stakeholders, including our big friends, the pharmaceuticals.

This will prevent a situation where all and sundry jump onto the marketing bandwagon and market all manner of medicines to unsuspecting consumers, therefore rendering them vulnerable to harmful substances. The next amendment that I think is of importance is that of section 14 of Act 90 of 1997, where an obligation is placed on the pharmacist or the licensed dispensing person to advise or to take reasonable steps to inform the patient of the benefits of generic substitutions of this medication.

It is known that generic medication is usually much more affordable than the branded medication. Therefore, doctors would prefer to prescribe the latter for obvious reasons, ie the profit they can make by doing this, especially to patients who have access to medical aid and are ignorant of the benefits, both health and financewise, of these alternatives.

I must also say that this places a responsibility on Government to ensure the registration of good quality generics, if available, and to liaise and engage the Department of Trade and Industry, the SA Revenue Service and other relevant stakeholders to expedite the importation of these generics.

Secondly, I wish to talk about the establishment of the pricing committee, which the Minister alluded to. I find this amendment in particular to be of huge significance, especially when we talk about the affordability of medicines. In many instances pharmacists and other dispensing persons buy medicines at great discount from distributors and wholesalers, but for purposes of profitmaking do not pass these discounts on to their consumers or patients.

The mandate of the pricing committee would therefore be to determine the price charged for all medicines dispensed by pharmacist or persons licensed to dispense. Of course, these prices will be determined after consultation and negotiation with the dispenser, as the Minister said. We believe that this amendment lends substance to the Government’s commitment to access affordable health care and cost-containment to ensure overall cost effectiveness. Clauses 9, 11 and 13 are basically technical amendments, so I would therefore also not dwell on them.

As for the Medical Schemes Amendment Bill, the first amendment deals with the redefinition of a broker which is consistent with the policy framework or the financial, advisory and intermediatory services. It also clearly spells out which services the broker can and cannot provide. The insertion of a new definition of broker services, which allows for an expanded definition of the term, will now enable health brokers to provide an ongoing service and advice to members on the most appropriate and affordable services available to them. This extends their previous mandate beyond just introducing members to medical schemes. This, we believe, will protect users against unscrupulous and exploitative medical aid scheme brokers or so-called service providers.

In conclusion, I would like to thank the Minister, Dr Tshabalala-Msimang; her department, under the very able leadership of Dr Ntsaluba, the Director- General and his officials - some of whom are present here with us; the state law advisers for their assistance to the select committee - and, I must say, under a very tight schedule; Johannes, the parliamentary liaison officer, whom I saw earlier on; and last, but not least, the members of the select committee, who diligently participated in the processing of these Bills.

The committee, therefore, places before the Council the Medicines and Related Substances Amendment Bill, the Occupational Diseases in Mines and Works Amendment Bill, and the Medical Schemes Amendment Bill, the latter with the additional amendments from the select committee which will be referred to the portfolio committee for concurrence.

I place these Bills before the Council for adoption. [Applause.]

Ms E C GOUWS: Chairperson, hon Minister, hon colleagues, the Medicines and Related Substances Control Act, Act 90 of 1997 was the subject of a court action by the Pharmaceutical Manufacturers Association. The PMA withdrew its challenge in April 2001, after consultation with leading world figures like Nelson Mandela and Kofi Annan. This was a conciliatory gesture on the part of the PMA in the interests of health care in South Africa.

Die wetsontwerp wat ons vandag voor ons het, is egter voorskriftelik en gee oormatige mag aan die Minister. Baie van die partye wat voorleggings aan die portefeuljekomitee gemaak het, was bekommerd oor die onafhanklikheid van die MCC, die Medicines Control Council. Daar word byvoorbeeld geen voorsiening gemaak vir nominasies vanuit die openbare sektor nie. Die MCC is veronderstel om ‘n spesialiskomitee te wees en dus sou ‘n mens verwag dat daar ‘n spesifieke getal lede sou wees met spesifieke kennis verteenwoordigend van sekere sektore. ‘n Mens sou dus ook verwag dat daar lede in die raad sou dien met kennis van die vervaardigingindustrie. Die wet spesifiseer egter dat sodanige persone nie in die raad mag dien nie. Dit is dus duidelik dat politieke oorwegings swaarder weeg as die belange van die mense.

Klousule 8 maak voorsiening vir die instelling van ‘n ‘‘pricing committee’’. Dié komitee besluit oor sy eie reëls en regulasies en ons sien dit as ondemokraties. Die hoofdoel van die ``pricing committee’’ is pryskontrole en dit druis in teen die Regering se beleid van vrye handel.

Om te appelleer teen die Medicines Control Council se besluite blyk vir ons problematies te wees.

Die Minister van Gesondheid en die Direkteur-Generaal blyk beide die implementeerders van die wetgewing te wees, asook om in beheer van die appèlle daarteen te wees.

Die DP kan dus nie hierdie wetgewing steun nie. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)

[The Bill before us today is indeed prescriptive and gives excess power to the Minister. Many of the parties who made submissions to the portfolio committee were worried about the independence of the MCC, ie the Medicines Control Council. No provision is made for nominations from the public sector. The MCC is supposed to be a committee of specialists and one would expect that it would have a specific number of members with specific knowledge and representative of certain sectors. One would also expect that members would serve on the council with knowledge about the manufacturing industry. The Act specifies that such persons may not serve on the council. It is evident that political considerations play a far more important role than the needs of the people.

Clause 8 provides for the inception of a pricing committee. This committee decides on its own rules and regulations and we regard it as undemocratic. The main purpose of the pricing committee is price control and it goes against Government’s policy on free trade.

To appeal against the decisions of the Medicines Control Council seems to us to be problematic. The Minister of Health and the Director-General both seem to be the implementators of this legislation, and are also in charge of appeals against it.

The DP cannot support this legislation.]

With regard to the Medical Schemes Amendment Bill, 7 million people subscribe to private medical schemes in South Africa. It is a very competitive industry and the consumer is often the loser owing to manipulation by brokers and their agents.

The object of this amending Bill is to broaden and tighten the definition of a broker, to ensure proper accreditation and to determine desirable business practice and good conduct.

The proposed amendments will improve governance and oversight of medical schemes; secondly, protect schemes against fraud; thirdly, reduce opportunistic behaviour by consumers; fourthly, offer protection to the consumer against unlawful and abusive conduct, both by medical schemes and unscrupulous brokers; and, fifthly, create greater financial stability within the private health care sector.

The DP supports this amending Bill.

With regard to the Occupational Diseases in Mines and Works Amendment Bill, the mining industry is an important pillar of the South African economy. The industry is a major employer. In 2000 it employed nearly 400 000 workers. The fear of injury and sudden death when working underground remains the most feared consequence for the workers. The reality is that the annual certification for pneumoconiosis plus new cases of TB in miners exceed the annual number of injuries reported.

Silica inhalation and silicosis greatly increase the risk of TB in miners. Lung disease and hearing loss are two main mining- related diseases which are capable of killing them. Many ex-miners suffer from pneumoconiosis, which is the deposit of dust in the lungs and the lungs’ reaction to it.

The amendment Bill will enhance the quality of life of miners who may be ill as a direct result of an occupational disease. It also addresses the responsibility of the mining industry towards its workers in respect of occupational diseases.

The DP supports the Bill. [Applause.]

Ms R P MASHANGOANE: Chairperson, hon Minister, special delegates and hon members …

… ke rata go rotloetšsa bao ba sa aparetšwego ke leswiswi la letšhogo la diphetogo go kgonthišiša gore mmušo wa ANC ka fase ga boeta-pele bja Presidente Mbeki bo bolokegile, bo tshwenyega ka maphelo a batho ka moka. Molao kakanywa wo ke bohlatse bja taba tše. (Translation of Sepedi paragraph follows.)

[I want to allay the fears of those who are fearful of changes, by saying that their safety under the leadership of the ANC-led Government under the leadership of President Mbeki is certain, because this Government is safeguarding the interests of all the people. This Bill is evidence of this.]

The Medical Scheme Amendment Bill before us must be seen in the context of all that has gone before, to ensure that poor transparency and lack of oversight over the medical scheme industry is firmly relegated to the past. Before the previous Act was legislated, members of medical schemes had to bear the unreasonably high cost of services that was being flouted under the guise of administration and commission costs.

The activities of primary and subsidiary stakeholders within the medical scheme industry were often suspect and sometimes even illegal. In the past, everyone would get onto the bandwagon to milk the consumer, resulting in convenient arrangements and payoffs among and between companies, administrators, brokers and almost everyone who sought to gain from a medical scheme client. Discriminatory treatment against the chronically ill, the elderly, the poor and those responsible for extended families was the order of the day. At the end of the day the Act stepped very firmly on sensitive toes in the industry in an effort to ensure the accountable and transparent industry of today.

The current amending Bill before us ties up some loose ends in governing the behaviour of brokers in the industry. There were some delays in the processing of the Medical Schemes Amendment Bill due to the imminent passage of the Financial Advisory and Intermediatory Services Bill. The problem centred mainly on the jurisdiction of the Council of Medical Schemes to give accreditation to health brokers. The contention by virtue of the FAIS Bill gives this right to the Financial Services Board where the Medical Schemes Amendment Bill gives same right to the Council of Medical Schemes.

This amendment as it currently stands, makes provision for the Department of Finance, through the FSB, to ensure that accreditation is given to all financial advisors, including health brokers, thereby ensuring that uniformity and minimum standards are maintained across all sectors that utilise the services of brokers. Similarly, the Department of Health will exercise its responsibility through ensuring that policy objectives contained in the Medical Schemes Act - governing areas such as stability, nondiscriminatory access, distribution of risks and other activities of health brokers - are closely monitored.

The Department of Health is placed in an ideal position where it can protect the users of medical schemes from unscrupulous health brokers. The new amendment that is before the NCOP now has a clearer and more expanded definition for the terms broker'' and broker services.’’ The new definition for broker allows for the health broker to be consistent with the policy framework stipulated in the FAIS Bill. The provisions of the FAIS Bill, as well as the expanded definition of broker services, will enable health brokers to provide ongoing services and give advice to members of medical schemes. This extends its current framework in which health brokers essentially introduce members to medical schemes.

Provision has been made for conditions of accreditation, and the CMS is currently working with the department and the industry to improve the existing formulation. The accreditation process has been ongoing since the year 2000. According to the Health department, this has meant that, almost all the health brokers who applied for this had either received accreditation or had been rejected. The amendment provides for consistency between the CMS accreditation process and a regulatory standards established underphase.

I believe one of the most significant changes brought about by the amending Bill is the prohibition placed on the brokers, whereby they may not be directly or indirectly compensated for providing broker services by any person other than a medical scheme; a member or prospective member, or the employer of such member or prospective member in respect of whom such broker services are provided; or a broker employing such broker. This clarity goes a long way to stamp out the current corrupt practices within the industry, where brokers are compensated every time they bring … [Time expired.]

Mr H T SOGONI: Chairperson, hon Minister and members, the three amendment Bills have received full support from the UDM. In our view, these amendments are necessary in order to address specific situations relating to the principal Acts. Clause 1 of the Medical Schemes Amendment Bill deals with the definition of a broker. In this regard a proposal went through the Portfolio Committee on Health to extend the definition to include persons who are otherwise excluded from such definitions if such persons choose to be accredited as brokers, or who actively market or canvass for membership of medical schemes.

The importance of the amendment in clause 2 is that it provides for the accreditation of a broker by the Council for Medical Schemes upon the payment of a prescribed fee, and that no broker may be compensated for services rendered before such accreditation has taken place.

There is also merit in clause 2 of the Medicines and Related Substances Amendment Bill. It grants the Minister the right to appoint a person to fill a vacancy in the Council for this period. The appointment of the Registrar and the Deputy Registrar by the Minister after consultation, with the Council is also commendable. I underline the word consultation because it is an indication that the Minister will be taking an informed decision when she makes the appointment. The functions of the Registrar and Deputy Registrar are also outlined in Clause 3 of the Bill.

The appointment of the pricing committee is another important aspect of this Bill. We were informed by the department during the briefing that the pricing committee does not set prices, but rather interrogates the manufacturers’ prices. Also, the importance of the provision which prohibits the selling of medicines at a price higher than the price contemplated in terms of another provision in this Act cannot be overemphasised. Therefore, it is my belief that a measure of price control on medicines is effected.

Appeal procedures against the decisions of the council and the Director- General are also clearly understood and accepted. The appointment of the chairperson contemplated in 9(C) of the Bill on the basis of knowledge of the law is fully supported, although it is our view that experience - which the same paragraphs serves to delete - should also be taken into account when appointments are made. Regarding the Occupational Diseases in Mines and Works Amendment Bill, clause 1 amends the principal Act by extending the period within which the Director-General may refuse an application for the medical examination of a person suffering from any of the occupational diseases that are compensatable in terms of the Act from 6 to 24 months, as the Minister has already indicated. [Time expired.]

Mr D M KGWARE: Chairperson, I might not finish my speech as it is eight pages long. I will just try to summarise it. We know that South Africa, for whatever reason, is increasingly being regarded as a haven of would-be drug dealers from across the globe. I just want us to remind ourselves of this fact. With an acute awareness of this dilemma, the SAPS, Department of Safety and Security, SA National Defence Force and other agencies responsible for the safety of our citizens have over the past few months and years found huge caches of illegal drugs at our airports and habours, all destined for the very lucrative global drug-trafficking market.

Some of these drugs are mandrax tablets, crack cocaine and dagga, all of them banned substances. These are easily detectable by monitoring the influx of huge consignments at our ports of entry. However, there are other legal drugs that are not easy to detect which are finding their way into our shores through syndicates with expertise in the manufacturing, marketing and distribution of these drugs.

All the sectors involved in the combating of illegal drugs into our country have found that there has been a significant loophole in the South African legislation which inhibits the stricter control of these contraband medicines. One of those loopholes has been the control mechanism governing the importation and exportation of legal medicine in the normal cause of the purchasing and selling of medicine, such as cycoclopic and narcotics both within and outside of our borders. We have found ourselves running into control problems.

To help alleviate this problem, the amendment to section 22(a) is an attempt to ensure that the sale of certain Schedules 5 and 6 substances in the pharmaceutical industry is recorded in a register of sold products. In addition, to provide for proper checks and balances, they should also reconcile what they have sold with what is left in stock four times a year, ie at the end of March, June, September and December. All of these balances must be completed within 14 days. After the due date, these stricter measures will hopefully make everyone aware of the problem and thus more accountable for both the large-scale theft of drugs within the legitimate industry and the prohibition of the drug smugglers from carrying out their operations.

Section 22(a) has also been substantially strengthened by making it a prerequisite that a Schedule 8 substance only be acquired through the Director-General for the purpose of providing these drugs to medical practitioners only. Even then, the patient, through the medical practitioner, must have the prescribed condition requiring the treatment. Thereafter, both the council and the Director-General need to approve the treatment.

Similarly, this amending Bill has included drugs contained in Schedules 5, 6, 7 and 8 for tighter control, in an effort to combat the drug trafficking trade and to meet the international guidelines governing the exportation of certain drugs. Some of these drugs have very lucrative international markets and without the necessary control mechanisms in place, we will be unable to stem the tide of the illegal drug trade. The other immense challenge that this amending Bill tackles head-on is the problem of the pricing of drugs. We will all remember vividly our fight with large pharmaceutical companies on the issue of parallel importation. We won that battle and generic substitution is part of our daily lives. However, the lack of control with regard to appropriate pricing mechanisms is threatening to undermine our purpose of providing affordable medicines to the poor. There has been a substantial public outcry regarding the way the industry is manipulating the cost of medicines within itself.

In conclusion, when the Bill is implemented, it is envisaged that there will be greater interaction between the industry’s pricing mechanism and the pricing committee established by this Bill. The pricing committee’s role is to be proactive and practical, especially when it makes recommendations to the Minister on the issue of escalating drug prices. This role will become increasingly important if drug prices in South Africa are found to be inappropriately high vis-á-vis prices elsewhere in Africa or internationally. As an example, this pricing committee will be empowered to recommend parallel importation.

For all these, including other pieces of legislation, the ANC supports these Bills.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! Hon member, you have done well. You were able to finish within your allocated time.

Dr P J C NEL: Mnr die Voorsitter, agb Minister, dit is vir my ‘n voorreg om aan hierdie debat deel te neem. Dat ons vandag drie gesondheidswette in een sitting hanteer, weerspieël die belangrike rol wat die Departement van Gesondheid in die wel en weë van die gemeenskap speel. Dit is dan ook geen wonder dat die agb President dit goed gedink het om ‘n bykomende adjunkministerpos vir Gesondheid te skep nie. Ek wil hom gelukwens daarmee, asook met sy keuse van die persoon wat hy in die pos aangestel het. Ek wil dan ook die agb lid Schoeman baie geluk wens met die aanstelling.

Hierdie wetsontwerpe het dit basies ten doel om die belange van die publiek wat gesondheidsdienste benodig, te beskerm en daarom steun die Nuwe NP al drie hierdie wetsontwerpe.

Die Wetsontwerp op Mediese Skemas poog om die lede van die skemas te beskerm teen die voortdurende styging in die finansiële bydraes van lede tot die mediese skema. Die bekamping van onbeheersde uitgawes op nie- mediese koste kan die styging in mediese inflasie ook bekamp. As ‘n mens in ag neem dat die bedrag wat spandeer is aan makelaarskommissie alleen R290 miljoen beloop het in die jaar 2001, dan besef mens ‘n dat ‘n gedragskode en ‘n duidelike omskrywing van die funksies van makelaars waarvoor die wet voorsiening maak, baie noodsaaklik is. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)

[Dr P J C NEL: Mr Chairperson, hon Minister, it is a privilege for me to participate in this debate. The fact that we are dealing with three health Acts in one sitting reflects the important role which the Department of Health plays in the wellbeing of the community. It is then no wonder that the hon President thought it a good idea to have an additional deputy minister’s post created for health. I would like to congratulate him on that, as well as with his choice of person that he appointed in the post. I would then also like to congratulate the hon member Schoeman on his appointment.

These Bills basically have as their aim the protection of the interests of the public who needs health services, and for that reason the New NP supports all three these Bills.

The Medical Schemes Amendment Bill aims to protect the members of these schemes against the continuing rise in the financial contributions of members to these medical schemes. The combating of uncontrolled expenses of non-medical costs can also fight the increase in medical inflation. If one takes into account that the amount spent on brokers commission alone amounted to R290 million in the year 2001, then one realises that a code of conduct and a clear definition of the functions of brokers, for which the Act makes provision, are essential.]

I would now like to deal with the Medicines and Related Substances Amendment Bill, which is a very serious business and has been for the past five years. The principal Medicines Act of 1965 was amended by the promulgation of the Medicines and Related Substances Act, Act 90 of 1997. This Act has, however, never been implemented, as the hon Minister has already told us, due to the fact that the SA Medicine and Medical Services Regulatory Act, the so-called Samdra Act, which was supposed to replace Act 90 of 1997, had to be withdrawn because it was procedurally incorrectly promulgated.

The legislation in front of us attempts to address some of these issues. The dispensing of medicine by medical doctors has always been a very sensitive issue, as medical doctors regard it as their undefeatable right to dispense medicine. Unfortunately, in a few instances dispensing became a major part of their practices and has also given rise to many irregularities.

The New NP therefore supports the concept of a licence to dispense, but has some reservations about the prescribed way in which such licence should be obtained. The amendment to section 22(C)(2) states that a licence shall not be issued unless the applicant has successfully completed a course determined by the SA Pharmacy Council, after consultation with the relevant professional board.

We are not in favour of a course being determined by the council, because it would mean that two different professional boards will regulate one profession. Surely that would jeopardise interprofessional relationships that are so necessary in the health family. The New NP proposes that the relevant professional boards determine their own respective courses, after consultation with the SA Pharmacy Council.

Die Wysigingswetsontwerp op Bedryfsiektes in Myne en Werksplekke poog om die werker te beskerm en wat daar omtrent hierdie wet te sê is, is alreeds gesê. Ek wil dit nie herhaal nie, maar ek wil net graag noem dat ek verskriklik dankbaar is dat hierdie wetsontwerp die situasie verhoed waar dit baie kere gebeur het dat ‘n sogenaamde agent of raadgewer wat die eiser help, met die grootste deel van die vergoeding wegkom.

As ‘n mens in ag neem aan watter gevaarlike omgewing die mynwerker elke werksdag van sy lewe blootgestel word, dan is dit ‘n skande dat hulle uitgebuit word deur gewetenlose mense. Die mynwerker verdien elke sent van die vergoeding wat hom toekom. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraph follows.)

[The Occupational Diseases in Mines and Works Amendment Act aims to protect the worker and what was to be said about this Act has already been said. I do not want to repeat it, but I would only like to mention that I am terribly grateful that this Bill remedies the situation where in many cases a so-called agent or advisor who helps the claimant, walks away with the biggest portion of the compensation.

If one takes into account the dangerous environment the mineworker is exposed to every working day of his life, then it is a shame that they are exploited by unscrupulous people. The mineworker deserves every cent of the compensation which he rightfully deserves.]]

Despite some reservations in the second Bill, we support all the Bills. [Applause.]

Nkk J N VILAKAZI: Sihlalo, mhlonishwa uNgqongqoshe nomNyango wakhe, iNdlu yomKhandlu weziFundazwe kaZwelonke ehloniphekileyo, namhlanje kubukezwa imithetho emithathu ebalulekile ezimpilweni zethu.

Angizukwanda namazwi, ngizothi nje fahla fahla kumthetho ngamunye obukezwayo. Ukuchitshiyelwa kweSigaba 32 kumThetho sichibiyelo 64 (b) ka- 2002 kuyofezeka uma kungakhumbuleka ukuthi imithi yesintu nayo inosizo. Abantu ngabe abayisebenzisi kangaka uma beyingathi shu. Siyalincoma igalelo lomNyango wezeMpilo lokuhlonipha ukusebenza kwamakhambi emvelo. Ucwaningo kufanele luqhubeke kule ndima ukuze kunyuke izinga lezinyanga kwezempilo futhi kube khona ukubambisana okuphilisayo; kuphele ukubukelana phansi, ikakhulu imithi yendabuko eyayivele ikhona. UmNyango uthatha igxathu elibalulekile impela. Thina be-IFP siyawusekela lo mThetho kwazise phela sinezinyanga eziningi KwaZulu-Natali kanye nosomakhambi. (Translation of isiZulu paragraphs follows.)

[Mrs J N VILAKAZI: Chairperson, the hon the Minister and his department, the august National Council of Provinces, today three laws which are very crucial to our lives are being reviewed.

I will be brief and I will just touch on each of those laws that are being reviewed. The amendment of section 32 in the amendment Act of 2002 will be achieved if it is kept in mind that indigenous medicines are also useful. People would not be using them so extensively if they were not effective at all.

We would like to commend the contribution of the Department of Health for showing respect for natural healing medicines. More research should continue in this field in order to uplift the standard of indigenous healers regarding health-related matters. There should be healthy co- operation and looking down upon others should come to an end, especially regarding the indigenous medicines which have been in use since time immemorial. The department is taking a significant step forward. We of the IFP support this Bill since we have many indigenous healers and herbalists in KwaZulu-Natal.]

The IFP supports the amending Bill, as it deals mainly with technical issues. We support any effort to improve scheduling and control of the import and export of medicine, as well as to amend the powers to search and seize in order to make them constitutional.

Okulandelayo ngizothi fahla fahla ngezifo esizithola lapha emsebenzini.

Lokhu kuchibiyela sengathi kuzocacisa okuningi okuyizinkinga uma umqashwa esegula, ikakhulu uma umsebenzi awenzayo kuyiwona oyimbangela yokugula.

Zolo lokhu bekunodaba olusematheni futhi luyinzukayikeyi kubaqashi abakhiqiza i-asbhestosi. Abantu bagula, iningi labo lashona futhi abangaluthola usizo olufanele. Kukhona abanye abaphathwa isifo sofuba, amazwibela awo umsebenzi njalo. Abanye bakhubazeka ingqondo, umuntu agcine esenesithuthwane ayengene emsebenzini ephila saka.

Ukuvimbela ukuxhashazwa komqashwa ngumqashi, lo mThetho sichibiyelo uyayibeka imininingwane okudingeka ibe yisisekelo sokuthi umqashi angabalekeli izindleko uma umqashwa esegula. Lokhu kungukuvikela inkombankombane, omunye nomunye evikela iso lakhe.

Lo mThetho sichibiyelo uphinde uzibale nezifo ezivamise ukugulisa abantu emsebenzini abawenzayo. Sicela abaqashi ukuba benze indawo yomkhiqizo wabo ibe indawo ephephile. Abaqashwa mabanikezwe izivikelo ezilusizo ekulweni nezifo, kube khona abezempilo abanakekela izisebenzi zabo. Kukhona engithanda ukukubeka ophikweni lenhlangano yosizo lwezokwelashwa. Imali abayithathayo inkulu kakhulu. (Translation of isiZulu paragraphs follows.)

[I will now briefly move to the diseases that are acquired at work. It looks as if this amendment will clarify many problematic aspects which are encountered when an employee gets sick, especially if that sickness is directly linked to the type of work which that employee does. Recently, current affairs carried reports of the conundrum that was faced by employers in the asbestos industry. People were sick. Most of them died without getting appropriate help. Some developed TB as a result of the work that they did. Others were mentally disabled and ended up with epilepsy while they had started working absolutely healthy.

In order to prevent the exploitation of an employee by an employer, this amending Bill lays down the details which will form the foundation for preventing employers from avoiding paying costs when an employee is taken sick. That is intended to avoid an abdication of responsibility, with each party pointing a finger at the other.

This amending Bill also specifies those diseases with which people are usually infected in their places of work. We would like to appeal to employers to ensure that the places where production takes place are safe. Employees must have access to protection measures that are effective in combating diseases. There should be health workers whose task it is to look after workers. I would also like to make a comment regarding medical aid schemes. They deduct hefty amounts of money.]

The deductions are high when compared to the benefits that the member gets when claiming. The allocation of benefits are so high for rare conditions that the company benefits more at the expense of the contributors. [Time expired.]

Mr J O TLHAGALE: Chairperson and hon members of the House, I also want to take this opportunity to congratulate our beloved Comrade Moosa on moving on to greener pastures. [Laughter.] I have known Mr Moosa to be a very capable man, especially during the time when we were dealing with the Equality Bill. I saw that he could withstand the storms that were there at that time. I congratulate him and wish him well in his new venture.

Except for the Medicines and Related Substances Amendment Bill, the Bills under discussion are so short that it is practically impossible to debate them without repeating what the previous speakers have said. So, due to time limitations, I do not intend to dwell on the details, but to browse on the peripheral aspects of the Bill. For purposes of my contribution, it is sufficient to mention that in the Medical Schemes Amendment Bill, one of the main purposes of the amendment is to broaden the definition of ``broker’’ in order to include the ongoing provision of advice, services and the admission of members to medical schemes. In the Occupational Diseases in Mines and Works Amendment Bill, the amendment seeks to extend the period within which the director could refuse an application for medical examination …

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Hon member, your time has expired! [Laughter.] [Applause.]

Order! Yes, hon member, are you rising on a point of order?

Mr T B TAABE: Chairperson, I do not think this is fair, because the hon member was still ``browsing on the peripheral aspects!’’ [Laughter.]

Mr B J TOLO: Mr Chairperson, hon Minister, special delegates, hon members, you will forgive me for some repetitions. [Laughter.] I rise to speak on the Occupational Diseases in Mines and Works Amendment Bill.

Mining has always been and remains a cornerstone of the South African economy. It has over the years directly and indirectly contributed about 43,1% of our GDP. It remains an important foreign exchange earner for our country to this day, but it is also worth mentioning that the profitability of the mining industry, especially before 1994, was mainly due to the fact that the national oppression of black people aided, to a large extent, the super exploitation of the workers. It means that there was a very healthy relationship between class exploitation and national oppression.

For the mine owners, healthy working conditions was a foreign concept, as their interest was profit, and profit alone. For many years mineworkers have had to bear the enormous burden of unbearable working conditions in the mines. Diseases emanating from these mines were the order of the day. Occurrences of occupational diseases were the rule, rather than the exception to the rule. Miners themselves would often be unaware that they were operating in a hazardous environment, until they developed symptoms associated with the contamination that they were exposed to.

The mineworker, who is invariably black, having worked under those conditions for many years, becomes weak, sick and even aged before his time. The mine owners, realising that they can no longer squeeze labour power out of these workers, would then bundle them into buses and drop them, like squeezed oranges in the former homelands - the labour reserves - and even in the neighbouring countries. Those buses would then return to the mines with other young and strong men to restart the cycle.

Sophia Kisting corroborates the above in an article she wrote entitled The Asbestos Legacy: A Collective Response, in which she actually outlines steps that should be taken in South Africa to address the problem. She says, among other things, and I quote:

Poor working conditions on asbestos mines resulted in extensive exposure. Communities living near the mines were also exposed.

She goes on to say, and I quote:

The majority of the ex-mineworkers are now unemployed and dependent on the public health service for their health care. The mining companies, by and large, did not make provision for the follow-up care of workers who developed asbestosis and related diseases years after they had left the mines.

This Council is aware of the many sad stories that we can tell about what is happening in this country in relation to this matter of asbestosis and other toxic substances found in the mines. The story that comes to mind here is that of Libode in the Transkei, where 37% of the former mineworkers were found to be suffering from pneumoconiosis - this is a jawbreaker, members will forgive me for that - and 65% of these people did not receive any compensation.

There is also the story in Lesotho, where about 800 retrenched miners were actually medically examined and it was found that 40% of them suffered from the very same disease, and not one of them is receiving any compensation. We can go on and on - the bottom line is that asbestos and other toxic substances in the mines cause irreparable damage to our people.

The development of strong trade unions in the mines, coupled with the advent of democracy in our country, mitigated the working conditions in the mines today. To a large extent, it is no longer a matter of profit, but of ``health comes first’’.

The Bill before us today further betters the lives of mineworkers and ex- mineworkers. Clause 1 of the principal Act, among other things, says that any person who works or has worked in the mines may apply for a medical examination to the director to determine whether he or she suffers from compensatable diseases. It further indicates that the director may refuse if that person has been examined within a period of six months preceding the date of the application. This suggests that examinations can be done every half-yearly.

This Bill changes this to six years, as stated earlier on. This is due to the fact that there was some realisation that these diseases take a long time to progress and that the very x-rays themselves, if one is exposed to them for a long time, can become harmful, as the Minister indicated.

The original provision of clause 2 was that a person affected by a compensatable disease must only be compensated for a period of not more than two years after contracting the disease. This clause suggests that compensation will be for a maximum of two years and that beyond that a person will receive no compensation. This, we think, was unfair. This Bill changes that, and this becomes open-ended. Once a person has contracted a disease, he or she will be compensated as long as the cause, as indicated earlier on, is legitimate and proven.

Many people working in the mines are either illiterate or semi-literate - of course, this is not their fault. From time to time …

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Thank you, hon member! [Laughter.]

Mr B J TOLO: The ANC supports the Bill. [Applause.]

The MINISTER OF HEALTH: Chairperson, I am sure you will agree with me that the previous speaker ended on a very sound note. It is not their fault.

I think that all that needed to be said has been said. I would like to thank very much all members who participated in the debate on the three amendment Bills. These amendments will assist us to ensure, as I said at the beginning, access to affordable, safe, efficacious and quality medicines in our country. I would like to thank the members again for supporting the amendments.

I would just like to address myself seriously to Mrs Gouws, and I think that is the only comment that I will make. Firstly, frankly speaking, I think that it was a shame that the member was held at ransom in terms of the Medicines and Related Substances Control Amendment Act, Act 90 of 1997. I think that it is a shame. Therefore, I am really surprised by what Mrs Gouws said. Of course, I honestly believe that what she said is not what she believes as an individual. I really do not think that that is what she believes, because how could she come here to Parliament and say that she is an elected representative of the people, that she will defend their interests, ensure that we provide them will quality health care and then stand up here and oppose this very important Bill? [Interjections.] Yes, the hon member did that.

I am convinced that that is not what she believes as an individual. I am sure of that since I have interacted with her, gone with her to the Eastern Cape and she told me how much she was concerned about ensuring that we provide quality health care. I would really be surprised if that is what she believes in. I am convinced that she does not believe in what she has just said. [Interjections.] There is now a possibility for her to identify with those who are really interested in the quality of the life of our people, and that is to cross the floor. [Interjections.] She will then be in an environment where she can actually speak freely in defence of the people of this country. [Interjections.]

However, let me just also remind Mrs Gouws that the withdrawal of the case was not really out of the goodness of the hearts of PMA. She knows pretty well that the international pressure was mounting against PMA. So, they did not do that because they had suddenly thought: Oh, well, we need to be nice to these South Africans. There was pressure on them. The hon member may probably not know that there was quite an amount of negotiations that went on behind closed doors between ourselves and PMA.

Really, it was not because PMA wanted to demonstrate that they were very reconciliatory. It was not that. There were serious debates behind closed doors until we reached a situation where they, indeed, said that that could not continue because they recognised that they were wrong. We then set up a seven-a-side committee and we have been working. So, I do not know who the hon member is defending. She cannot defend them, because she does not know what was happened between us and pharmaceutical companies. In fact, we had a series of meetings with the pharmaceutical companies. As the hon member knows, we have said that we have been developing regulations with them. So, I do not know who is she defending. Mrs Gouws just does not a have a leg to stand on in the defence of the pharmaceutical companies. They know exactly that what they were doing was immoral and wrong. [Interjections.]

It is probably important for me to say that we have now almost concluded to develop the regulations through the members of this House and their support for those amendments, particularly regarding the Medicines and Related Substances Amendment Bill. I think that what the hon members are assisting us to do now is to get on with our business, particularly to assist the President to promulgate this Bill into law so that we can begin to implement it in order to ensure that we can actually access affordable, safe, efficacious and quality medicines in our country.

What surprises me is that it is the same DP that is always complaining about the fact that they cannot find medicines in our clinics. When we create a vehicle to ensure that they can access affordable medicines, they are the ones who oppose it. What do they actually want? [Interjections.] What are they actually looking for? I really cannot understand it. Let me just say that as a South African, it really hurts me. It really hurts me that when we try to improve the quality of life of our people, there is one party that stands against that very noble objective for which we are here in Cape Town, in Parliament. I think that they really need to rethink their stand, honestly. I am saying that very very sincerely.

This will be the last time this year that I stand before this august Council to debate. Very soon we should rise as Parliament and we should be going to our constituencies to do some work. I do wish all hon members productive work in their constituencies. Soon, thereafter, we shall all be going on holiday. I wish all hon members a good restful break and they should be ready to start again next year. It will soon be the festive season. It is too early to wish the hon members a merry Christmas and a happy new year, but because I will not be seeing the members again, I might just as well do it now. I do wish the hon members an exciting festive season. However, as we enjoy the festive season, I hope that we will commit ourselves in the coming days, starting on 25 November to 10 December and stretching beyond the festive season, and that we will always remember that violence destroys our humanity. Therefore, I hope that all of us can participate in these 16 days of activism on no violence in our country against women, children, the elderly, people with disabilities and the men of our country. [Applause.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Malibongwe! [Let us praise it!]

HON MEMBERS: Igama lamakhosikazi! [Let us praise the name of the women!]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! That concludes the debate. I shall now put the question in respect of the third Order. The question is that the Bill, subject to the proposed amendments, be agreed to. In accordance with Rule 63 I shall first allow political parties the opportunity to make their declarations of vote, if they so wish. It seems there is none.

We shall now proceed to the voting. Those in favour will say ``Aye’’.

HON MEMBERS: Aye.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Those against will say ``No’’. I think the ayes have it. The majority of members have voted in favour. I therefore declare the Bill, subject to the proposed amendments, agreed to in terms of section 75 of the Constitution. [Applause.]

I shall now put the question in respect of the fourth Order. The question is that the Bill be agreed to. In accordance with Rule 63 I shall first allow political parties the opportunity to make their declarations of vote, if their so wish. It seems there is none.

We will now proceed to the voting. Those in favour will say ``Aye’’.

HON MEMBERS: Aye.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Those against will say ``No’’. There is none. I think the ayes have it. The majority of members have voted in favour. I therefore declare the Bill agreed to in terms of section 75 of the Constitution. [Applause.]

I shall now put the question in respect of the fifth Order. The question is that the Bill be agreed to. In accordance with Rule 63 I shall first allow political parties the opportunity to make their declarations of vote, if they so wish. It seems there is none.

We will now proceed to the voting. Those in favour will say ``Aye’’.

HON MEMBERS: Aye.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Those against will say ``No’’. I think the ayes have it. The majority of members have voted in favour. I therefore declare the Bill agreed to in terms section 75 of the Constitution.

                  MERCHANDISE MARKS AMENDMENT BILL

            (Consideration of Bill and of Report thereon)

Mr M V MOOSA: Chairperson, I rise to call on the House to support quite an exciting little law, the Merchandise Marks Amendment Bill. For those who do not know what this Bill is about, it tries to outlaw ``ambush marketing.’’ Now that may sound like a big word, but look at the following situation: You are watching rugby, cricket or soccer on TV - Kaizer Chiefs and Orlando Pirates are playing - and an SA Breweries or some other advert is flighted just after a player has scored a goal.

All the people who usually advertise there pay for it. These are sponsorships that make events happen. Sometimes one can have an event that is of public interest - say, a very big community event - where big sponsors put a lot of money into it to make it happen. Sometimes it is an event that is meaningful to the country, the community and so forth.

However, there are others who do not sponsor. What they do is, they take advantage of that publicity without sponsoring the event, ie without giving any money. Mr Raju will know what I am talking about! [Interjections.] Somebody would lift a balloon in a street behind the stadium and all the people who have come to the event would see it. They would then think that these people are also sponsoring the event, when in fact they would actually be doing it from outside the venue and getting lots of TV and all sorts of mileage out of it. The truth of the matter is, they are not sponsoring the event; they are not giving a cent towards the event.

So what this Bill does, is to try to outlaw those who practise ambush marketing. Sometimes these people put big advertisements outside the gates of the venue or across the road. One also finds small-scale business people who sell T-shirts and those kind of things. Now some of these people do in fact make some contribution in the form of stall rentals, but some of them do not.

What this Bill does, is to allow the Minister to designate certain events as important events that require protection in terms of the Merchandise Marks Bill. If anybody ambushes such events, they would be committing an offence. It is a very interesting little law. What we have also done through the amendment process is to make sure that when the Minister designates events, he or she takes into account proper participation by black business and small enterprises in the event, so that they can also benefit from it without being forced to sell from across the road. In that way we will be making sure that smaller businesses and participants also take advantage of the event.

So that is really what this Bill is about. I want to call on the Council to support this Bill.

However, before I sit down, I want to use the balance of my time to make a statement because, as my colleagues know, this is my very last speech after nine years in Parliament.

When I was saying a few words earlier on I had forgotten about someone very important in the DTI, a person called Mr Johan Strydom. He is not here now, but he was earlier. He is a dedicated lawyer who works very hard on all these pieces of legislation; a real technician and committed person who dedicates a lot of time to what he does. I omitted to mention the good work he has done for our committee, and I want to apologise to him for that. On behalf of the committee, I want to tell him that we appreciate the good work he has done. I am sure Mr Raju will convey that to him.

In conclusion, I want to say that I have stood up in this House before many presiding officers. We started out with the late Mr Kobie Coetzee, who was the President of the Senate at the time. We then had Dr Motsuenyane, who was also a very prominent leader of the House at the time and played a very big role indeed. We then had Mr Terror Lekota, and then my good friend and colleague, Mr Bulelani Ngcuka. We now have Ms Naledi Pandor.

We also had Mr Mushwana, and we now have Mr Mahlangu. We had great minds in this House. We had Prof Mchunu. Ntate Bhengu will remember Prof Mchunu. He was a professor of law, and my very first committee in this House was the Justice committee. I want to tell Kgoshi Mokoena that I was privileged to chair that committee. I was privileged to have no less than eight lawyers in that committee, ie Prof Mchunu, Mr Bulelani Ngcuka, Mr Enver Surty, Mr Mohamed Bhabha, Mr Radue, who was a lawyer from the opposition NP, and Mr De Villiers from the FF.

We were a bunch of lawyers and when a law came to that committee, it was ripped to pieces and fixed again, over and over again. It was a lot of fun. When we first came here there was a Mr Alex van Breda. He used to be the Chief Whip of the NP in the years before we came here in 1994. There was this young 31-year-old lawyer called Moosa. Van Breda, who had never been challenged as the Chief Whip of the NP in the old days, suddenly had to contend with an arrogant 31-year-old, and I must tell hon members that there were brawls!

Mr Surty, the Chief Whip, will remember the brawls which lasted until the day Mr Van Breda left. Mrs Lubidla will remember that he sat on the other side - and if members were to go to the Hansard they would see this - and said: ``I never thought that I would leave Parliament because of an individual. That man sitting across the bench, Mr Moosa, is one of the good reasons why I think my time is up and I should leave.’’ I will never forget that day.

So there were some exciting times. We had to collapse and break down all the apartheid laws when we came here in 1994. Laws such as the detention laws and others were still in place, and we had to systematically break them down. There were no rules in this place. We had to put new rules and structures in place.

We also had to set up the Truth and Reconciliation Commission. In addition, there was the new constitutional process; the Bill of Rights; Chapter 8, the judicial chapter, etc. In my recent years in the Economic Affairs committee we had very exciting things, ie the National Industrial Strategy, the mining law, and the Equality Bill that I had to chair, etc.

I have had some very good times in these past nine years, really exciting years, and I have learned a lot. When I came here at the age of 31 years I was a little boy, but I have become a man in the past nine years. I have grown emotionally and politically as an individual. I would like to thank all hon members, every single one of them, for these very exciting nine years. I will never forget those years. All the members, every one of them, have coloured it in some way, and have had an influence on the fabric of my life. That will be with me for the rest of my life.

In conclusion, I want to say that there were a few members - people like the Chief Whip of the Majority Party, Mr Surty - who made an indelible impression in my life, and I want to thank them. I want to thank Ms Naledi Pandor and yourself, Ntate Bhengu, for the very, very good discussions and good times we had. I also want to thank the members of my provincial delegation, comrade Joyce Kgoali and other comrades. I want to thank them for the nine years of exciting times; a time of growth. I will always remember them. They should please not forget that I am here. I am leaving the NCOP, but I remain a committed member of the ANC, committed to a better life for all, wherever I go and in whatever I do. [Applause.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Thank you, Mr Moosa. Perhaps I can steal one second to say that I am also very grateful to have had the opportunity to work with you, specifically in the select committee and the joint standing committee. What has fascinated me about you is your incisive and perceptive mind.

Secondly, you have great respect for others, something which is lacking in quite a number of us.

Debate concluded.

Declaration of vote:

Mr J L THERON: Chairperson, this Bill seeks to amend the Merchandise Marks Act, so that intrusive or ambush marketing becomes illegal. It gives the Minister wide discretionary powers in this respect, and applies to events and protected events in that no person may use a trademark in relation to such an event in a manner that is calculated to achieve publicity for that trademark.

The motivation behind these amendments is to give the sponsors of the Cricket World Cup 2003 the right to market the event to the exclusion of others. This Bill has severe implications for small businesses. Small business can, therefore, not market and sell their products freely at the cricket events, which will be to the detriment of especially poor people trying to make a living.

Lastly, we also feel that this Bill has been rushed through without adequate consultation and without consolidation from the competition authorities, as well as representation by small business. The DP can, therefore, not support this Bill. [Interjections.]

Bill agreed to in accordance with section 75 of the Constitution.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! Hon members, I am informed that the Whippery have agreed that there be just one debate for the eighth, ninth and 10th Orders of the Day.

CONSIDERATION OF REPORTS OF SELECT COMMITTEE ON SECURITY AND CONSTITUTIONAL AFFAIRS - INTERNATIONAL CONVENTION ON THE SUPPRESSION OF TERRORIST BOMBINGS; INTERNATIONAL CONVENTION FOR THE SUPPRESSION OF THE FINANCING OF TERRORISM; PROTOCOL ON THE CONTROL OF FIREARMS, AMMUNITION AND OTHER RELATED MATERIALS IN THE SADC REGION

Kgoshi M L MOKOENA: Mr Chairperson, the bombings that took place in the past few weeks are still haunting some of us. South Africans are being subjected to faceless and cowardly bombers who are trying to provoke a state of terror among the general public.

This reminds me of the debate we had in the committee, where members tried to define terrorism. I remember that hon members like Joyce Kgoali and Beauty Dlulane were very vocal in trying to define terrorism. The International Convention for the Suppression of Terrorist Bombings and the International Convention for the Suppression of the Financing of Terrorism will provide important tools to the Government of South Africa and the SAPS in their campaign against terrorism.

The two treaties require parties to criminalise the prescribed behaviour, ie engaging in international terrorists bombings and fundraising for international terrorism, and to either arrest and extradite the offender to another country that has jurisdiction to prosecute, or submit the case for prosecution.

The committee was unanimous in endorsing these treaties. No democratic country can tolerate terrorism; no self-respecting country would sugar-coat terrorism, no matter how people could try to justify certain actions. Terrorism has got no place in a democratic country.

Under the Convention for the Suppression of Terrorist Bombings, South Africa will be required to, among other things, establish jurisdiction over and make punishable under our democratic and domestic law the offences described; to extradite or submit for prosecution persons accused of committing or aiding in the commission of the offences; and to assist other countries in connection with criminal proceedings under the convention.

Under the Convention for the Suppression of the Financing of Terrorism, South Africa will be required to take appropriate measures, in accordance with its domestic legal principles, to ensure the detection and freezing, seizing or forfeiting of any funds used or allocated for the purpose of committing the offences described.

I know members are aware that, as a country, we are currently busy drafting the required antiterrorism legislation which will make it possible for us to implement these two treaties or conventions. At the same time, as South Africans, we are mindful of the fact that there is a vast difference between terrorist activity and a struggle for self-determination. Unlike a certain country which has been playing big brother, we do not confuse the two.

We also believe that international co-operation to combat terrorism should be conducted in conformity with the principles of the UN Charter, international law and relevant conventions. These treaties, formulated under the auspices of the UN, allow us to formulate a joint response to terrorism, taking into account the concerns regarding the definition of terrorism and the unilateral use of action in the violation of the principles of the UN Charter and international law.

I want to deal with the SADC Protocol on Firearms. There are people who easily use or display firearms as if they are displaying their front teeth. It also takes them not more than an hour to manufacture them. South Africa is mindful of the need to prevent, combat and eradicate the manufacturing, trafficking, possession and use of firearms and ammunition.

We believe that there is an urgent need for effective control of these. As a country, we have already taken a number of steps to curb the use of firearms and other related material. Members will recall that we have passed a new Firearms Control Act and Parliament is currently considering the explosive Bill. The SADC protocol can only serve to strengthen and complement these efforts.

The committee has mandated yours truly, on behalf of the department and the whole country, to ask the House to support and endorse these treaties. The committee I am referring to, ie the committee on security and constitutional affairs, is not like an ordinary committee. This year alone it managed to pass 20 Bills in this Chamber.

This powerful committee also managed to influence this Council to endorse 16 treaties, excluding these ones. As members are aware, that does not include their normal interaction with the departments or their visits to the provinces. That is the committee I am talking about.

It is now my pleasure and privilege to, once again, on behalf of these dedicated troops, submit these three treaties to the hon members to do the right thing. [Applause.]

Debate concluded.

Question put: That the Report of Select Committee on Security and Constitutional Affairs - International Convention on the Suppression of Terrorist Bombings be adopted.

IN FAVOUR OF: Eastern Cape, Free State, Gauteng, KwaZulu-Natal, Mpumalanga, Northern Cape, Northern Province, North West, Western Cape.

Report accordingly adopted in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.

Question put: That the Report of Select Committee on Security and Constitutional Affairs - International Convention for the Suppression of the Financing of Terrorism be adopted.

IN FAVOUR OF: Eastern Cape, Free State, Gauteng, KwaZulu-Natal, Mpumalanga, Northern Cape, Northern Province, North West, Western Cape.

Report accordingly adopted in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.

Question put: That the Report of Select Committee on Security and Constitutional Affairs - Protocol on the Control of Firearms, Ammunition and other Related Materials in the SADC Region be adopted.

IN FAVOUR OF: Eastern Cape, Free State, Gauteng, KwaZulu-Natal, Mpumalanga, Northern Cape, Northern Province, North West, Western Cape.

Report accordingly adopted in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.

The Council adjourned at 17:47. ____

            ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS

ANNOUNCEMENTS:

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces:

1. The Speaker and the Chairperson:

 (1)    The Minister of Social Development on 6 November 2002  submitted
     a draft of the National Development Agency  Amendment  Bill,  2002,
     as well as the memorandum explaining the objects  of  the  proposed
     legislation, to the Speaker and the Chairperson in terms  of  Joint
     Rule 159. The draft has been referred to  the  Portfolio  Committee
     on Social Development and the Select Committee on  Social  Services
     by the Speaker and the  Chairperson,  respectively,  in  accordance
     with Joint Rule 159(2).


 (2)    The following Bill was introduced  by  the  Minister  of  Social
     Development in the  National  Assembly  on  13  November  2002  and
     referred to the Joint Tagging Mechanism  (JTM)  for  classification
     in terms of Joint Rule 160:


     (i)     National Development Agency Amendment Bill [B  70  -  2002]
          (National Assembly - sec 75) [Explanatory summary of Bill  and
          prior notice  of  its  introduction  published  in  Government
          Gazette No 23893 of 4 October 2002.]


     The Bill has been referred to the  Portfolio  Committee  on  Social
     Development of the National Assembly.
     In terms of Joint Rule 154 written views on the  classification  of
     the Bill may be submitted to  the  Joint  Tagging  Mechanism  (JTM)
     within three parliamentary working days.

National Council of Provinces:

1. The Chairperson:

 (1)    The following changes have been made to the membership of Select
     Committees, viz:


     Economic and Foreign Affairs:


     Appointed: Conroy, E A (Alt); Theron, J L.


     Education and Recreation:


     Appointed: Jacobus, L; Kgoali, J L; Moosa, M V (Alt); Theron,  J  L
     (Alt).


     Finance:


     Appointed: Conroy, E A; Theron, J L.
     Labour and Public Enterprises:


     Appointed: Mahlangu, Q D (Alt); Moosa, M V.


     Land and Environmental Affairs:


     Appointed: Conroy, E A; Kgoali, J L (Alt).


     Local Government and Administration:


     Appointed: Jacobus, L (Alt); Kgoali, J L.


     Members' and Provincial Legislative Proposals:


     Appointed: Conroy, E A; Moosa, M V; Theron, J L.


     Public Services:


     Appointed: Conroy, E A; Kgoali, J L (Alt).


     Security and Constitutional Affairs:


     Appointed: Kgoali, J L; Theron, J L (Alt).


     Social Services:


     Appointed: Kgoali, J L (Alt).


 (2)    Bills passed by National Council of  Provinces  on  13  November
     2002: To be submitted to President of the Republic for assent:


     (i)     Disaster Management Bill [B 21B - 2002] (National  Assembly
             - sec 76).


     (ii)    Medicines and Related Substances Amendment Bill  [B  40B  -
             2002] (National Assembly - sec 75).


     (iii)   Occupational Diseases in Mines and Works Amendment Bill  [B
             39B - 2002] (National Assembly - sec 75).


     (iv)    Merchandise Marks Amendment Bill [B 63B -  2002]  (National
             Assembly - sec 75).


     (v)     Patents Amendment Bill [B 64 - 2002] (National  Assembly  -
             sec 75). TABLINGS:

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces:

Papers:

1. The Speaker and the Chairperson:

 Report of the Auditor-General on the Delays in the  tabling  of  Annual
 Reports as required by the Public Finance Management Act, 1999 (Act  No
 1 of 1999) [RP 228-2002].

1. The Minister of Labour:

 (a)    Report and Financial Statements  of  the  Local  Government  and
     Related Services Sector Education and Training Authority for  2001-
     2002, including the Report of the Auditor-General on the  Financial
     Statements for 2001-2002 [RP 103-2002].


 (b)    Report and Financial Statements of the Health and Welfare Sector
     Education and  Training  Authority  for  2001-2002,  including  the
     Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements for 2001-
     2002.

1. The Minister of Safety and Security:

 Report of the Independent Complaints Directorate in  terms  of  section
 18(5)(c) of the Domestic Violence Act, 1998 (Act No 116  of  1998)  [RP
 199-2002].

COMMITTEE REPORTS:

National Council of Provinces:

1. Report of the Select Committee on Finance on the Adjustments Appropriation Bill [B 66 - 2002] (National Assembly - sec 77), dated 13 November 2002:

   The Select Committee on Finance, having considered the subject of the Adjustments Appropriation Bill [B 66 - 2002] (National Assembly - sec 77), referred to it, reports that it has agreed to the Bill.

2. Report of the Select Committee on Finance on the Revenue Laws Amendment Bill [B 67 - 2002] (National Assembly - sec 77), dated 13 November 2002:

   The Select Committee on Finance, having considered the subject of the Revenue Laws Amendment Bill [B 67 - 2002] (National Assembly - sec 77), referred to it, reports that it has agreed to the Bill.

3. Report of the Select Committee on Finance on the Memorandum of Understanding among Member Governments of Eastern and Southern African Anti-Money Laundering Group and RSA, dated 13 November 2002:

   The Select Committee on Finance, having considered the request for approval by Parliament of the Memorandum of Understanding among Member Governments of the Eastern and Southern African Anti-Money Laundering Group and the Republic of South Africa, referred to it, recommends that the Council, in terms of section 231(2) of the Constitution, approve the said Memorandum.

 Report to be considered. 4.    Report of the Select Committee on Finance  on  the  RSA/UK  Convention
 for Avoidance of Double Taxation and Prevention of Fiscal Evasion  with
 respect to Taxes on Income and Capital Gains, dated 13 November 2002:


     The Select Committee on Finance, having considered the request  for
     approval by Parliament of the Convention between the Government  of
     the Republic of South Africa  and  the  Government  of  the  United
     Kingdom of Britain  and  Northern  Ireland  for  the  Avoidance  of
     Double Taxation and the Prevention of Fiscal Evasion  with  respect
     to Taxes on Income and Capital Gains, referred  to  it,  recommends
     that the Council, in terms of section 231(2) of  the  Constitution,
     approve the said Convention.


 Report to be considered.

1. Report of the Select Committee on Finance on the RSA/New Zealand Agreement for Avoidance of Double Taxation and Prevention of Fiscal Evasion with respect to Taxes on Income, dated 13 November 2002:

   The Select Committee on Finance, having considered the request for approval by Parliament of the Agreement between the Government of the Republic of South Africa and the Government of New Zealand for the Avoidance of Double Taxation and the Prevention of Fiscal Evasion with respect to Taxes on Income, referred to it, recommends that the Council, in terms of section 231(2) of the Constitution, approve the said Agreement.

 Report to be considered.