WEDNESDAY, 28 MAY 2003 __

                PROCEEDINGS OF THE NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
                                ____

The House met at 15:04.

The Speaker took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayers or meditation.

QUESTIONS AND REPLIES - see that book.

                          NOTICES OF MOTION

                   INVESTIGATION OF THE ARMS DEAL

Mr D H M GIBSON: Madam Speaker, I hereby give notice that I shall move at the next sitting of the House:

That the House -

(1) notes -

   (a)  the Joint Investigating Team's investigation into the arms deal,
       and the subsequent removal of information from its final report;


   (b)  that section 4(6)  of  the  Auditor-General  Act,  1995,  raises
       important questions regarding this Act's compliance with section
       188 of the Constitution, 1996; and


   (c)  the serious damage that the arms deal and subsequent allegations
       of corruption and cover-up have done to our nation's reputation;
       and

(2) resolves to appoint a joint ad hoc committee to investigate the arms deal and to make use of section 56 of the Constitution in the course of its enquiries.

             ROLE OF OPPOSITION PARTIES IN SOUTH AFRICA Mr J DURAND: Voorsitter, ek wil kennis gee van 'n onderwerp vir  bespreking: Die rol wat opposisiepartye moet speel om 'n  tweede  Zimbabwe  te  voorkom. [Chairperson, I want to give notice of a subject for  discussion:  The  role that opposition parties have to play in preventing a second Zimbabwe.]

                     EDITING OF ARMS DEAL REPORT

Ms R TALJAARD: Chairperson, I hereby give notice that I shall move at the next sitting of the House:

That the House -

(1) notes -

   (a)  statements by the Auditor-General that  he  had  no  choice  in
       editing the JIT Report due  to  section  4(6)  of  the  Auditor-
       General Act of 1995;


   (b)  that section 4(6) was notoriously used by the apartheid  regime
       to hide certain military  and  intelligence  projects  from  the
       public and that it offends against sections 181 and 188  of  the
       Constitution and may well be unconstitutional; and


   (c)  that the statement of  the  Auditor-General  merely  serves  to
       confirm that key issues were either edited out or  glossed  over
       by the JIT Report; and

(2) calls on the Auditor-General to reveal -

   (a)  the extent of  consultation  with  the  executive  in  terms  of
       section 4(6);


   (b)  who in the executive was involved;


   (c)  what role was played by the President in this regard, given that
       the current  President  chaired  the  Inter-Ministerial  Cabinet
       Committee tasked with this procurement; and


   (d)  what  requests  were  received  from  the  President  and  other
       Ministers concerned in respect of the JIT Report.


                         APPROPRIATION BILL

Budget Vote No 17 - Labour

The MINISTER OF LABOUR: Hon members, Deputy Chairperson or is it Chairperson - well they change seats every now and again. Sekela Sihlalo, … [Deputy Chairperson, …] allow me to commence my address from borrowing a few lines from the well-known and highly esteemed African writer Ben Okri, who in his book A Way of Being Free, states the following:

The vast realities of our age are manufactured realities, it is therefore our task as creative participants in the universe to redream our world. The fact of possessing imagination means that everything can be redreamed. Each reality can have its alternative possibilities. Human beings are blessed with a necessity of transformation.

Deputy Chairperson, it was the atrocious reality manufactured by those who colonised us and subjected the majority of our people to horrendous acts of social oppression and economic exploitation that the founders of our liberation movement, the African National Congress, sought to redress. Indeed the pioneers of our struggle had an alternative dream to the one cherished by those who sought to rob our people of their birthright to liberty and peace. They dreamt of denying our people access to economic opportunities by restricting their right to trade, to obtain decent education and training and to practise their trade of choice.

Incarceration, being forced into exile and the threat of death could not suppress the dream or shatter the hope of creating a truly nonracial, nonsexist, democratic South Africa. The capacity of human beings to redream a new and different reality to the one manufactured and imposed by detractors and an inherent ability of homo sapiens to recreate and transform their reality in a manner contemplated by Ben Okri, was clearly demonstrated when freedom-loving South Africans, black and white, marched alongside each other and gathered 47 years ago in Kliptown, south of Johannesburg, to constitute the congress of the people that adopted a charter in which they declared that South Africa belongs to all who live in it, black and white. The significance of this declaration was that it was not acceptable that the majority of the population of South Africa be relegated to the humiliating status of being regarded as sojourners in the land of their birth.

As hon members would know, the Freedom Charter further declares that the national wealth of our country shall be restored to the people; that all people shall have equal rights to trade where they choose, to manufacture and enter all trades, crafts and professions. This was the dream dreamt and the hope harboured by the masses of our people assembled at the congress of the people in 1955. The people declared that on that day that all who work, shall be free to form trade unions, to elect their officers and make wage agreements with their employers.

The Congress of the People also demanded that the state should recognise the right and duty of all to work and to draw full unemployment benefits. It declared that men and women of all races shall receive equal pay for equal work; that domestic workers and farmworkers shall have the same rights as all others who work. The congress called for the abolition of child labour and the tot system. These are some of the dreams and aspirations that all progressive South Africans gathered at the Congress of the People had in common.

Deputy Chairperson, it should also be understood that while millions of South Africans could not attend the congress in Kliptown, they shared the same dreams, the same hopes, the same aspirations. So those who gathered in Kliptown articulated the dreams of many other South Africans.

So determined were the delegates at the congress to realise this dream and translate their hope into reality, that they concluded the document they adopted with these words, and I quote: ``These freedoms we will fight for side by side throughout our lives until we have won our liberty.’’

No better words would have demonstrated the determination of the people to redream a new order and to transform our country into a broader society for all. The commitment to fight for these freedoms was not inspired by the desire for war. Our undertaking operations that made us live side by side with death was not inspired by a desire to be listed in history books as martyrs. All of these were unselfish hopes and choices inspired by a dream to be free and to free others. For that reason, no sacrifice was considered too high.

I find it interesting, Deputy Chairperson, that some liberal politicians seemed to have shared some aspects of this dream in the early days. I would like to remind the members of the Democratic Alliance here today of the words of Dr Zach De Beer - in particular new members, the ones who are going to follow me - of the then Progressive Federal Party in 1979, when he was speaking in this House against amendments to the second reading of the Industrial Conciliation Act. In endorsing a sentiment from the Wiehahn Commission to which amendments were responding, he said: ``The denial of a fundamental right to which all workers should be entitled is morally indefensible.’’

I only wish that those who claim to have inherited and to be taking forward this liberal tradition were as principled today instead of telling us that we must scrap the labour laws. Mrs Helen Suzman in the same debate spoke of the hopes that at last the workers of South Africa were going to be provided with a real charter of industrial freedom. But this was not to be at that time. It is ironic, is it not, that today the same discourse on fundamental rights of vulnerable workers case the same freedoms as onerous regulations which inhibit investment and job creation.

Mr Chair, having won political power, we owe it to all freedom-loving South Africans to use the might and the resources of the state to transform our society into one that truly cares for its people: Be it those who are forced to work long and unregulated hours in locked up sweat shops; or those who only earn enough to pay for transport to go back to work the next day; or those who work in hazardous conditions without protective equipment; or those who are discriminated against in their workplace because they are black, female, disabled or are HIV-positive, or because they were prevented from obtaining skills that would enable them to depend for their livelihood on full participation in productive work; or because they are school leavers who are unable to obtain employment because they lack work experience; or they were unfairly dismissed; or casualised by their uncaring bosses; or are in need of financial support due to short- term employment; or are in need of compensation for injuries sustained at work and diseases contracted in the call of duty. Chairperson, those are the ones whose aspirations, needs and concerns my department is called upon to address in order to contribute to the goal of the movement of the people, the ANC, of ensuring a better life for all.

Building on the policy framework developed during our first five years of democratic government and the work done in the first half of the second cycle of our democracy, the Department of Labour has made great strides in realising the dreams, fulfilling the hopes, meeting the needs and addressing the concerns of those it is required to serve with the money voted to us by this Parliament.

Chairperson, during the year under review, we began vigorously to implement the amendments to the Basic Conditions of Employment Act and the Labour Relations Act aimed at improving the application of the labour legislation, ensuring the effective alignment of our laws with the changing labour market environment and increasing the sensitivity of our legal framework with the imperative to create jobs and addressing unintended consequences of some of the provisions. As a result of these amendments, legitimate workers can no longer be reclassified by unscrupulous employers as independent contractors to render them ineligible for labour law protection.

Employers who intend to retrench workers can no longer do so without a legally enforceable process aimed at either preventing retrenchment or mitigating the effects thereof. The labour market is now more efficient for business people, especially small businesses, to take care of their business more effectively and with a greater degree of certainty.

Key and historic sectoral determinations were published in extremely vulnerable sectors of the labour market, namely, the domestic and agricultural sectors respectively. Each of the determinations prescribe minimum wages and regulate service conditions and thereby give effect to the dictum in the Freedom Charter that states that domestic workers and farmworkers shall have the same rights as all others who work.

The domestic work sectoral determination ensures that for the first time in the history of this country domestic workers are recognised as workers and not just as so-called helpers. Consequently their contribution to the economy will no longer be undervalued. Implementation of these two separate determinations will ensure that the level of abuse, marginalisation and exploitation of vulnerable workers in these two sectors shall become a thing of the past.

Chairperson, while the determination for domestic workers was met with great enthusiasm by the majority of employers and workers, the same cannot be said of some employers in the agricultural sector. It is interesting that the majority of black farmers represented by the National African Farmers Association, most of whom, for historical reasons, are new entrants and therefore not well-off, welcomed this initiative as an important instrument to prevent exploitation of workers. On the other hand some individual white farmers and their associations are tempted to wage a political battle against the determination. I think that they would like to be allowed to continue paying their workers in kind and deduct from their wages an amount in excess of the allowable 10%. Acceding to that demand would not only have resulted in the Government becoming an accomplice in entrenching the cycle of poverty amongst farmworkers that has for many years been transmitted from one generation to the next, but would also breed an environment wherein those who do not like the policies of a democratically elected ANC Government, undermine the rule of law with impunity.

I sincerely hope that this policy aimed at eradicating poverty and protecting the rights of vulnerable workers is not turned into a racial and political football. I would like to state without equivocation that those who think they can turn the clock back by putting political pressure on us to stop the ANC’s transformation agenda have undercalculated our resolve and determination. To them I can only say:

Asijiki. Siya phambili, nokuba sekumnyam’ entla. [Kwaqhwatywa.] [We are not turning back. We are moving forward no matter what. [Applause.]]

That the ANC has more than 90 years of experience in resistance we have to remind people that:

I-ANC ngumbutho wabantu, woxolo, onjongo yawo ikukukhulula abantu beli lizwe kumakhamandela neenkxwaleko zengcinezelo. I-ANC ayilelanga, iguqe ngamadolo. Ningayinyatheli emsileni. [The ANC is a people’s organisation of peace, whose objective is to free people of this country from the shackles and chains of struggle and oppression. The ANC is wide awake. Do not dare bother it.]

I-ANC ayahlukanga kumeva etolofiya xa ingaphethwanga ngobunono ngabo bayinyevulelayo. [Uwele-wele.] [The ANC is no different from the thorns of the prickly pear if and when it is not handled with care by those who sneer at it. [Interjections.]]

However, in the interest of promoting peace and stability in the labour market, I have set up a task team consisting of officials of my department and representatives of employers and unions to work with the agricultural sector to develop a programme of action to ensure the successful implementation of the sectoral determination. Thus far not a single farmer has opposed the sectoral determination; they are complaining about implementation - some of them even before they implement.

Chairperson, the work on developing the comprehensive programme to eradicate child labour, carried out in collaboration with other government departments and civil society formations, is now at an advanced stage and is likely to be concluded during the financial year.

As hon members would know, my department has launched in the last financial year a code of good practice on disability following the successful launch of a similar code on HIV/Aids. HIV/Aids, hon members, is a challenge for all of us - one that we can overcome by working together in the partnership against Aids. The fight against the epidemic takes place on many fronts, mostly out of the public eye. We need from time to time to bring together all that has been done so that all of us can know both that together we are making an impact and that now we must continue to intensify the campaign.

Our country has a comprehensive five-year HIV/Aids and STI strategy that addresses prevention, treatment and care, research and human rights aspects. It is founded on the premise that HIV causes Aids.

Since there is no known cure for Aids, prevention of HIV infection remains critical. Government’s pervention strategy is to promote public awareness, to make condoms - Comrade Madasa, I’m calling you ``comrade’’ because I’m talking about condoms - widely available and to develop the life skills of young people. I became a Christian before you repented. [Laughter.]

The Technical Assistance Guidelines that I launched on Monday 26 May should be seen in this context. The Technical Assistance Guidelines will provide support and guidance to employers in the implementation of the HIV/Aids code.

HIV/Aids and other diseases for that matter have a devastating effect on all South African workplaces and the economy. Its impact can be seen through an increase in absenteeism and sick leave, staff turn-over and lower staff morale.

The Technical Assistance Guidelines are designed as an accessible, user- friendly manual for employees, employers and trade unions on how to deal with HIV-related discrimination and to respond to the impact of HIV/Aids in the workplace.

All these initiatives are aimed at preventing unfair discrimination in the workplace. However, the acid test on whether the employment equity legislation is successfully being implemented will be when we see concrete evidence of changes in the workplace. The recent report of the Commission for Employment Equity demonstrates that very little is happening in this regard. While one may concede that the law is relatively new and that it takes time to change a culture that has been entrenched by apartheid policies over many years, the 1% increase in the number of blacks who moved to top management positions over the last two years is definitely not acceptable.

I have reasons to believe that there are companies that are intent on resisting workplace transformation. It is therefore my intention to pay particular attention to this in the next financial year. I also await with keen interest the report of the findings of the portfolio committee arising from their recently held public hearings on employment equity. Indeed some of the suggestions made by social partners and other stakeholders may help us in ensuring that the dreams and aspirations of the majority of South Africans, as declared in the Freedom Charter and articulated in our Constitution, find practical expression in the workplace.

Kungoko sisitsho sisithi asijiki. Siya phambili nokuba sekumnyam’ entla. [That is why we maintain our stance and say we are not turning back. We are moving forward through thick and thin.]

It has become common knowledge that one of the factors constraining our economy from growing to optimal levels, from attracting foreign, direct investment and increasing job opportunities is the skills deficit our country inherited from the big-mouth members who are sitting on my left. [Interjections.] Given the significance of this matter, my department is confronting the issue head-on, as evidenced by the fact that since the beginning of 2001 to date, a total of not less than 3,1 million people have received training relevant to their work or relevant to trades and occupations they aspire to enter into.

Given the poor performance of some Setas in this regard and the strict fiscal conditions under which grants must be disbursed, it is only fair for us to applaud this 250% improvement. Of course these accolades should not be seen as a cover-up for those Setas that are underperforming. While the majority of Setas are doing very well, it is common knowledge that there are those few whose performance is so dismal as to besmirch the good reputation and progress made by the rest. My department has developed a programme of action to assist those Setas who are struggling. At the same time we are compiling legislation to be brought to Parliament soon, which we trust will go a long way in improving the functioning and accountability of the Setas.

As regards learnerships, hon members will remember that the department exceeded by far the 3 000 target that was set for the first intake for the year 2000-01. It gives me pleasure to announce today that as at the end of the financial year under review, a whopping total of 23 517 people were already in learnerships, 8 159 of whom were unemployed young people. If we add 17 735 people engaged in apprenticeships since the launch of the strategy, it means that a total of 41 252 have received quality training. [Applause.]

Members will recall that last year we announced that over a billion rand had been allocated to strategic projects being managed by 18 Setas. Time does not permit a report on the progress of each of these, but I am happy to report that the project being managed by the Financial Services Seta, Fasset, is galloping ahead. Their project has focused on the training carried out in promoting the learning and teaching of maths, science and accounting. It has shown remarkable results, including the 84% pass rate of first year B Com students at The University of Fort Hare.

Training funded by the department through our provincial offices supported the training of a total of 78 467 people, of which 48 119 were youth and 2 504 were people with disabilities. About 3 265 scholars were given bursaries to address the problem of scarce skills. Chairperson, an analysis of these figures demonstrates in no uncertain terms my department’s overwhelming response to the President’s call that our country should act decisively to increase the number of those who rely for their livelihood on participation in the economy.

Chairperson, one of the plethora of hopes the people who gathered in Kliptown had, was that a day would come when the consumer of government service, the citizenry, especially black citizens, will be treated with dignity when they approach Government for services. Many of those who gathered at Kliptown to adopt the Freedom Charter may have already departed from their physical and mortal dwelling. But those who are still alive will be glad to know that my department has responded to a call to make the department user-friendly. Pursuant to that objective we have established a service delivery arm of the department under the leadership of a Deputy Director-General.

Therefore Chairperson, the praises we get will not cause us to rest on our laurels with arrogance and complacency. At the same time the constructive criticism will only motivate us to spare no strength or effort in ensuring that we give nothing but the best for our people. This is the least we can do to show honour and reverence to many of those who have made great sacrifices to procure the freedom and liberation of all South Africans.

The service delivery branch is also responsible for routine workplace inspections as well as blitz inspections aimed at ensuring that employers comply with labour legislation. It is heartening to announce that last year alone a total of 87 815 inspections were carried out throughout the country. Each year we undertake analysis of high risk sectors and geographic areas and develop a programme of action to remedy the problems.

Is it not an interesting observation that of all the workplaces inspected, less than 7% were issued with contravention notices, prohibition notices and compliance orders, while only 1% of cases resulted in inspectors recommending prosecution. This illustrious performance illustrates a change of culture. While in previous years inspectors found high levels of noncompliance, especially with occupational health and safety regulations, the levels of compliance have increase significantly. This can only be attributable to the fact that the vigilance of labour inspectors has sent a signal to the perennial violators of labour legislation that there is no place to hide. And that is why we do want to repeat … [… Asijiki siya phambili nokuba sekumnyam’ entla. [We are moving forward no matter what.]

The new unemployment legislation aimed at overhauling the Unemployment Insurance Fund was promulgated during the year under review. This opened a new chapter in the history of the fund as unprecedented, bold and ambitious initiatives were introduced to address the historic, systemic inefficiencies that had plunged the fund into an economically unsustainable one with a deficit. As a result of these changes the liquidity and solvency of the fund has significantly improved and as at 8 May 2003 the fund had a cash flow in excess of R2,7 billion.

The most progressive and radical provision of the new legislation was the extension of coverage to include the most vulnerable workers in the labour market, domestic workers. Many arguments were advanced to persuade the ANC Government to exclude this category of workers and treat them the way they were treated by a regime that did not recognise them as workers. Key amongst the reasons advanced for their exclusion was the fact that extending coverage to domestic workers would put an inordinate administrative burden on the infrastructure of the department.

While we agreed that this unprecedented, progressive intervention would place an enormous burden on us, we thought that it would be immoral and preposterous of us to exclude, from UIF coverage, those workers who needed it most. Our only regret is that, notwithstanding the fact that the Freedom Charter had declared in 1955 that domestic workers should be entitled to rights enjoyed by other workers, it took 47 years before they could be registered with the Unemployment Insurance Fund.

Indeed this initiative poses challenges we have never experienced before, and indeed our systems and infrastructure could not cope with the last minute rush by employers to register their workers. The fact that we now have exceeded - in fact this morning I was informed that we have reached the 400 000 mark of registration - the target by more than 33% demonstrates that even the unthinkable can be achieved if there is political will, commitment and dedication.

I know there are those who wish that I would become harsh. I cannot be harsh on people who are complying with the law in the manner that many of the employers who are sitting in this august House have done.

Chairperson, let me also take this opportunity to inform this House that the nation at large is busy with preparations for the Growth and Development Summit, which are on course. The premature and opportunistic attack on the summit by the DA is at best unfortunate and at worst ill- conceived. To suggest that a summit, aimed at providing an opportunity to social partners to work together towards raising the rate of investment and growth in order to create more employment opportunities and address the legacy of development deficit, is simply a talk shop, is a contemptuous insult not only to the Government but also to organised labour, captains of industry and civil society formations who have all demonstrated their commitment to collaborate in addressing our painful past, which if not addressed will continue to haunt many generations to come.

Only those who are not conversant with the arrogance of the DA and its racist agenda will be flabbergasted by its sustained campaign aimed at creating an impression that nothing plausible will ever come from a black government. In an attempt to obtain votes from victims and survivors of policies predicated on a theory of white supremacy, the DA claims that South Africa is in a worse situation today than it was 10 years ago. Those whose lives have been improved through the progressive policies of the ANC will not believe this flagrantly irresponsible, naked lie.

The truth of the matter is that we have inherited an economy that was in decline and destined to worsen. The truth of the matter is that our country was exposed to vicious, macroeconomic threats. The truth of the matter is that we have inherited structural unemployment. The truth of the matter is that we have inherited a labour market with a large supply of unskilled workers and a short supply of skills. The truth of the matter is that we have inherited a labour market environment characterised by racial inequalities and deepening adversarialism. The truth of the matter is that the ANC has developed and implemented policies aimed at addressing all these historical problems. The truth of the matter is that the President of this country, in discussions with captains of industry and organised labour, has agreed that Government cannot solve all these problems.

Let me conclude by saying…

…Kuninzi esikwenzileyo. Kusekuninzi nekusafuneka sikwenzile. Indlela yona isende ngaphambili. Kufuneka sizise utshintsho neenguqu kwiindawo abantu abahlala kuzo. Indima esele siyihambile iyabonakala. Abo banamehlo bayabona. UMayihlome kaTshstwete uyangqina kwincwadi yakhe asandula ukuyibhala Road from now. Yiva ndikucaphulele: (Translation of isiXhosa paragraph follows.)

[We have achieved a lot. There is still much that we must do. The road is long ahead of us. We must bring about change in our communities. One can already see the results of our sweat. Those who have eyes can see. In his recently published book, The Road from Now, Mayihlome Tshwete asserts that. I quote:]

Recollecting images of resting soldiers, As I look at faded pictures of those missing those who stood against the greatest opposition. Driven only by vision.

My memory dwells on the moments of their lives When their actions gave the masses hope. I think of them, the dying breed forever grateful they were never silent.

He concludes by saying:

Today, because of them, We can proudly say: “that’s the way it was” Mayibuye! I-Afrika! Umhlaba ngowethu Ilizwe lelethu. [Let it come back! Africa! The land is ours The country is ours.]

[Applause.]

Mr M S MANIE: Chairperson, hon Minister, hon members, if we want to assess what has been done to date since our democratic elections, we are compelled to take a few steps back in order to assess what the democratic Government inherited, notably the very deep-rooted levels of poverty and the vast inequalities. The ugly face and effects of apartheid was most starkly experienced in the workplace and the inhuman laws that governed it. These laws resulted in the black majority being largely unskilled or semiskilled and employed at the lower levels in the workplace.

Over the past 10 years our primary role was to outlaw all forms of discrimination, develop a strategy to ``upskill’’ the majority of the labour force, bring the marginalised sectors into the mainstream of our economy and introduce measures to correct the inequalities of the past.

Because of job reservation we had a very skewed distribution of skills, almost exclusively white at the top and almost exclusively black at the lower levels. For South Africa to enter the global market and be competitive, with the vast majority of its people unskilled, required a comprehensive human resource development strategy. The skills development strategy of the Government should be seen against the backdrop of the above problems and I will be the first to admit there are still very many challenges ahead.

Our initial task was transforming the old training structures and creating ones in all sectors with a clear mandate. The economy was divided into 25 sectors and a Sectoral Education Training Authority (Seta) was successfully established in each of these sectors. At the public hearings held on skills development it became clear that some Setas have made remarkable progress, while others again were lagging very far behind.

The task of training and allocating it a position high up on the agenda is the primary task of the employers. It appears as if there is still a lot of reluctance from many employers. They seem not to understand that the skills development will benefit them directly. The skills development is seen by some of them as a further tax burden only. A drastic change of attitude is required there. Skills are linked directly to competitiveness and productivity and it holds obvious benefits for companies, not only domestically, but also to position them to enter the export market.

The sectoral determination for domestic workers to determine a basic minimum wage and basic, decent working conditions was a milestone in the history of South Africa. This sector was particularly difficult to regulate because of the low level of organised labour, as well as the fact that almost each worker has his or her own employer. From now on a contract is required between a domestic worker and employer. Domestic workers must also be registered with the UIF and the Department of Labour. For sleep-in domestic workers, decent accommodation must be supplied and no deductions can be made for food.

The registration of domestic workers for the UIF to date has been far from perfect and many of the reasons cited why it will be difficult to register these workers have been proven correct. But let us look at the matter from the other side. The most vulnerable workers are also now able to benefit from the UIF and have entrenched worker rights like all other workers in our country.

A lot of work still needs to be done to ensure that these workers understand what their rights are, as well as making employers aware of their new duties and responsibilities. On this issue we can all feel proud that we have made significant progress to include domestic and seasonal workers in the mainstream of our labour market. They are not the stepchildren of South Africa anymore. To encourage all employers to comply with the registration process is also not the responsibility of the department alone, but forms part of our collective responsibility.

Of the close to 1 million domestic workers, 470 000 have already been registered. This is a fantastic achievement, considering the complexity and difficulties associated with this task. And the Minister, the Director- General and the people involved must be commended for having worked so hard to achieve this. [Applause.] If you want to applaud, applaud with some vigour! [Laughter.] [Applause.] Thank you. Much better!

About farm and seasonal workers, this sector employs more than a million workers. Regulating this sector, as contentious and contested as it might have been, was absolutely essential. Farmworkers were generally considered as the possessions of the farmer who could just about treat them as they wished in the past.

Chairperson, I agree, agriculture forms a vital part of our economy and our ability to feed ourselves as a nation. However, for us to have accorded agriculture its important status, we were compelled to address the plight of farmworkers. Farmworkers are the ones who support 40% of all rural households. This sector employs some of the most marginalised and poorest in South African society. On a previous average of R500 per month, these people were sentenced to a lifetime of poverty. Some people spend R500 in one night when they go out and eat at a restaurant. So how can we expect workers to support their families on this amount?

Some farmers have objected strongly to aspects of the sectoral determinations, but these measures have given farmworkers their dignity back, so compliance is a must, it is not a luxury. Although the sectoral determination for farmworkers is not the total answer, it at least laid a foundation to improve the minimum wage and the working conditions of one of the most vulnerable groups in our country. I commend the Minister and his department for taking these bold steps with regard to farm, domestic and seasonal workers. On the 13th and 14th of this month the portfolio committee conducted public hearings on employment equity. The absence of organised labour at the hearings was of great concern to the portfolio committee, because at the hearings the crucial role of labour to drive the process came through from various presentations.

The report from the Commission on Employment Equity has illustrated three things in a very unambiguous way: Firstly, that a great reluctance still prevails to implement employment equity; secondly, that the pace of change is unacceptably slow; and thirdly, that there are very many myths projected as the truth in the media amongst the general public when it comes to affirmative action.

Although employers have submitted their reports, it appears as if many of them have not developed company policies or allocated the required resources to implement the Act. Very few companies have demonstrated their commitment and the profile of the workforce remains largely the same as before. The information supplied to the committee at the hearings by the Commission on Employment Equity showed a mere 1% change from 2000 to 2001. At the rate of 1%, it will take us several decades to implement a 100% change and none of us can wait so long to ensure that we actually have employment equity on the shop floor.

Chairperson, I would like to remind those reluctant employers that the Government did not want to introduce compulsory quotas at the beginning when the legislation was being considered. It opted for the softer option of allowing employers to set their own targets based on their individual and personal circumstances. Ten years into our democracy, many of the workplaces still have exactly the same face. Once again let me state that equal opportunity is not the same as affirmative action. Equal opportunity only becomes applicable when we have a level playing field.

Employment equity structures, where they have been established, are so underresourced and so low down the managerial hierarchy that they have very limited authority to impact on changing the workplace. The opponents of affirmative action have propagated the view that white workers lose their jobs, cannot get promotions and cannot enter the job market because of their colour. This myth was emphatically dispelled by the statistics supplied at the public hearings. A very strong view that was also supported by many others was that our skills development strategy, and in particular the role of Setas, should be linked more directly to the Employment Equity Act.

In its report to Parliament, the Portfolio Committee on Labour will address the question of whether stronger measures indeed need to be considered, because submitting reports amounts to very little. Those people who have felt the brunt of discrimination in the past had great expectations that the new Employment Equity Act would eradicate all forms of discrimination and remove the imbalances that existed in the workplace, caused by apartheid.

In conclusion, let me say that everyone says that apartheid was wrong and we struggle to find people who supported apartheid and who voted for it. So, if we all agree that apartheid was wrong, we must then surely also agree that the Government’s agenda of what it is trying to do is correct.

So, what is the DA doing when they are saying that they want to fight back? All they are fighting back against is affirmative action, they are fighting against the skills levy, they are fighting against domestic workers and farmworkers. They, in fact, only want to bring apartheid back. [Interjections.] [Applause.] [Time expired.]

Mr C R REDCLIFFE: Chairperson, as a constructive and responsible opposition we believe we should give credit where it is due and, therefore, wish to commend the Department of Labour for the turnaround in respect of UIF contributions paid by employers since the SA Revenue Service was appointed to do the collections. Allowing the fund to register a surplus of R1,45 billion in 2002-03 is quite impressive. It is the first time in many years that such a surplus has been realised, allowing a substantial decrease in the allocated transfer to the fund.

However, I want to say to the hon Minister that I wrote a letter to him on 7 May 2003 regarding the initial chaos around the registration of domestic workers for UIF purposes and up to now still have not had the courtesy of a reply, never mind an acknowledgement. I find this quite appalling.

Apart from the other major challenges we face such as crime and HIV/Aids, unemployment is undoubtedly our single greatest challenge. It is probably not an exaggeration to say that this has become a national crisis. Among South Africa’s grave socioeconomic problems, unemployment is one of the most serious and intractable. It is the greatest single cause of deep poverty and has replaced race as the major factor in inequality, and it underlines or contributes to a wide range of other socioeconomic ills.

We can be proud of some achievements since the advent of our democracy. We agree that good progress has been made in stabilising the macroeconomy, reducing inflation, reducing the budget deficit, stabilising the fiscal situation, relaxing exchange controls, liberalising international trade, introducing a new skills development framework and stabilising the labour market. There is no doubt that these achievements have laid the basis for a more sustainable and higher economic growth platform for South Africa. But, South Africa’s investment and growth rates remain far too low to tackle high unemployment and to raise the living standards of the majority of our people.

The DA is unanimous in its support for the Government’s broad macro- economic policies, unlike the ANC which has such wide divisions about the policy. Incidentally, last week the hon Mike Tarr waxed lyrical about the success of the Government’s macroeconomic policies. We can concur with him, but ask the hon Jeremy Cronin whether he shares that passion. We cannot have political freedom without economic freedom. We cannot have the ballot without bread. Freedom is an indivisible concept. It is probably appropriate to misquote the former President of Ghana, the late Kwame Nkrumah, and we should now say: “First seek the economic kingdom and thereafter everything will be added.”

I believe it to be a truism that governments do not create wealth and only consume it. It is business which creates wealth, and it has no colour. Unless we seriously address unemployment, rolling back the frontiers of poverty, which is now becoming a hackneyed phrase of the ANC, will be an elusive dream. The DA will attempt to make a constructive contribution and put some concrete proposals on the table.

There are varied statistics about the levels of unemployment. The official figure used by Nedlac in its last annual report, puts the figure at 29,5%. Others put the figure closer to 40%. Business South Africa, in a presentation to the Portfolio Committee on Labour last week, stated that 7,6 million are unemployed.

I attended a presentation in 1997 in which Lawrence Schlemmer and Charisse Levitz released a research publication about unemployment in South Africa. In that they stated that:

It seems fairly inevitable, therefore, that we will become more and more clearly an enclaved economy in which the formal, unionised and relatively well-remunerated sectors of the economy, while producing more, will nevertheless shrink in relation to the overall labour force. The pattern of a relatively privileged inner sector of the economy surrounded by a vast and widening sea of unemployment and precarious marginal employment is likely to threaten stability and deepen the damage to the social fabric which has already depressed confidence in this country.

That analysis, in my view, is still relevant. What are the impediments we need to address to get this country on a higher growth trajectory and consequently much lower levels of unemployment? We must accept the reality that our domestic savings are far too low in order to provide the fixed investment and, therefore, foreign direct investment is critical to spur growth. Unless the Growth and Development Summit seriously deals with the issue of the rigid regulatory framework and labour and capital costs which hamper our FDI, we will not get this country on a higher growth trajectory.

The SMME sector has universally shown to be the biggest contributor in creating jobs, as opposed to the large corporations, but it is in this sector where many small employers find the existing labour laws difficult, if not impossible, to comply with. And I differ with the hon Minister when he says small and medium businesses do not find these labour laws onerous.

Some of the small and medium enterprises I spoke to say that labour laws in general impose a relatively higher cost on small firms than on large ones. They also say that they are disadvantaged in dealing with highly trained union officials whose skills are honed in negotiations with the experts employed by large corporations. Our labour laws need to take account of this, not only to provide relief to small firms, but to increase job opportunities for the unemployed and allow the economy to grow faster.

Unlike large firms, less skilled persons look to small firms for employment. These small firms just do not have the resources to have personnel managers to evaluate prospective employees and are more likely to assess people by instinct. They function on a hit-or-miss or trial-and- error basis, hoping that the person they appoint will fit the job and handle it efficiently.

I am told that people with low skills are taken on in the knowledge that they will have to be taught the job and may initially not be productive. Small employers also hope, when they appoint people, that new employees will help increase the earnings of the business sufficiently to cover their wages. When this does not happen or there is incompatibility for some reason, employers are faced with having to dismiss the unsuitable employee. And this is the nightmare for the owners of the small and medium firms.

If one looks at the number of the cases which are referred to the Commission for Conciliation, Mediation and Arbitration, the bulk of these involve small businesses and most of these cases were for allegedly unfair dismissals. In fact, for the year ending March 2001, the CCMA dealt with over 103 000 cases, 16% up on the previous year.

These firms have to spend an inordinate amount of time and effort to defend these allegations. They also have to spend a fortune on expensive labour lawyers, pushing up their overhead costs. They simply do not have the expertise or the resources to comply with all the regulations. Labour costs also constitute a major cost item of most small businesses and the additional costs imposed by the new laws have led many small businesses to curtail any additional labour intake. In many cases labour has simply been shed. Some businesses have also closed down as a direct result of these new laws. [Time expired.] [Applause.]

Mr R M MOROPA: Thank you, Chair. Chief, this person that has just spoken now is fairly new in the portfolio committee, so he could only afford to recycle the speech that was done last year by his party.

On 27 April 1994 the people of South Africa, black and white, came out in their numbers to take part in the first ever nonracial and democratic election. That onset of democracy in South Africa formally ended several decades of colonial apartheid discriminatory policies and legislation which deeply affected the structure and efficiency of the labour market in our country.

The legacy and apartheid practices remained and are continuously attended to by this Government. Our labour market reforms give grounds for optimism. Since 1994, with progressive labour market policies, we have seen the almost complete disappearance of illegal strikes and plant stoppages. All of this, together with other policy interventions, gives rise to a positive domestic economic outlook, which explains why South Africa stands out as a success story.

Since then the Government, under the leadership of the ANC, has engrossed itself in an overarching goal of creating a society that is nonracial, nonsexist and prosperous. It is trying so hard against huge odds to push, cajole and nudge the cynics in the direction of positive struggle to achieve national democratic change, a course we have sworn never to deviate from. Indeed, the tide has turned against the legacy of apartheid.

The legacy of differences in human capital investment as well as in other individual attributes is playing a major role in explaining the varying incidences of unemployment and poverty, and the racial and gender inequality of labour in both access to occupation and incomes within the South African labour market.

The year 2003 marked the critical phase in the remaining part of the Department of Labour’s strategic plan that has always served as a management tool to implement the department’s political and policy mandates. Our strategic plan has drawn its policy objectives from the Ministry’s 15-point programme of action, which was adopted at the beginning of the second part of our decade of governance and political transformation in the Republic of South Africa. At the core of the strategic plan is a clear and determined shift from policy formulation to policy implementation. The President of the Republic made a clarion call when he stressed the need for the closure of the undesirable gap between policy formulation and policy implementation, and this budget adheres to this call.

It is within this labour market environment that apartheid’s most draconian laws and the application thereof suffered their worst failure, as they were based on inadequate information, defective reasoning and unrealistic assumptions. Most of the defective reasoning continues to inform the Mickey Mouse party’s, the DA’s, simplistic notion of the characterisation of the country’s labour market. To avoid similar mistakes, the department proposes a scientific research programme in the budget on co-operatives, employment creation and atypical employment. This research programme is a huge investment and it will increase the quality of policy formulation and the rate of successful policy implementation with less impediments to service delivery.

It should also be able to produce the synergistic factors required to pull South Africans out of poverty during these nascent years of our democracy. Although we celebrate the fact that associated with racist labour market policies were some of apartheid’s greatest failures and defeats, as a direct consequence of poor economic performance and the rise of a powerful trade union movement, their legacy still constitutes the main feature of many workplaces today.

It is against this backdrop that the broad, labour market transformation policy objectives are consistently aiming at replacing the policy vacuum that existed prior to 1994 with policies capable of removing the apartheid labour market legacy; addressing the challenges of unemployment and employment poverty rocking the lowest echelons of our labour force; mitigating the adversarial apartheid relations between labour and business; providing resource capacity to increase levels of productivity and turnaround strategies for ailing businesses; pursuing a skills revolution on both managerial and technical levels required to drive an economy increasingly open to rigorous tests of international competition; and, lastly, providing remediation intervention to those whose skills do not meet the new skills demanded by the labour market now.

Guided by our Reconstruction and Development Programme, when it says that active labour market policies, productivity enhancement and a stable macroeconomic environment are key mechanisms for meeting the RDP’s employment-related objectives’’, it is within this context that we today vote in favour of this budget which will give the Department of Labour the necessary financial resources to accelerate their labour market reform programmes.

The policy objectives of this budget have been consistent, both historically and contemporaneously, with the broad vision of transformation of the economy of South Africa. The inadequate and defective explanation of unemployment by the DA on regulatory policies that rigidify the labour market and economy contributes negatively to both the local and foreign investment potential of our country. Flexibility to us does not mean a euphemism for lower wages and management prerogative. Rather, it means a multifaceted concept with labour market security at its centre. It must also be confirmed that job creation can be achieved when new businesses invest in the economy and old businesses expand their investment by using technology that employs people and labour-intensive techniques, and improving the skills levels of the people while they are employed.

The International Labour Organisation’s report notes ``that changes in work organisation, work practices and technology have led to an increased demand for skilled workers in both developed and developing economies’’. This global trend of employing higher-skilled individuals, when coupled with South Africa’s existing inequalities in access to education and skills training, holds the potential to entrench and deepen existing racial and gender labour market inequalities.

It is in this context that rigorous labour market reforms and progressive employment equity measures are inescapably valuable tools in enabling appropriate responses to an ever-globalising and unequal economic world. Our democracy demands this.

The laws to support what I’ve said above are already in place and have just been reviewed in 2001 in response to the public view that the laws were achieving unintended consequences and we want to congratulate the Minister in this regard for his decisive political leadership provided when it was so urgently needed. [Applause.] It is also worth mentioning that the monumental role played by social partners within the Nedlac institution is valuable.

These amendments sought to improve the application of both Acts, align them with the labour market realities and increase the sensitivity of the legal framework. Since then the CCMA has experienced an improvement in dispute settlement, both in terms of conciliation and arbitration.

Also of significant achievement is the passage of the UIF Act, Act 63 of 2001, which became effective on 1 April, as its objective was to turn the operation of the fund around by including the previously excluded and the most vulnerable workers, containing costs and enhancing compliance. We also want to commend the commissioner for a job well done and we hope that we will sustain the type of positive cash flow that we are seeing today.

Thanks for the amendments, which will assist us in pushing back the frontiers of poverty by breaking down the racial structure of poverty which persists both because of current discriminatory practices and because steps taken to redress the legacy of apartheid have thus far been countervailed by the ``Fight Back’’ strategy of the DA as the opposition in this House, the negative outcomes of which bear most heavily on the poor and the disempowered. And they will claim that they are representing the poor, and I cannot understand why.

If we are to disentangle the poverty-stricken from the position in which they are, and from which they cannot escape without labour market developmental reforms that are currently being implemented, we must vote in favour of Budget Vote No 17. These achievements so far give us the ingredients for faster progress on this particular front. However, a laudable achievement in itself, it has not translated into the increased quality jobs intended by the labour market and economic reforms. We are under no illusion that the challenges are massive and do acknowledge that the enterprise of national democratic transformation is in itself a daunting task and a learning experience for all South Africans. The investigative study under way into the forestry sector is a major step in the right direction, in particular regarding issues of contractorisation, which so far has achieved further marginalisation of the most vulnerable of our workers. We wait in suspense for the status quo report in this regard. The reason for our scepticism about outsourcing in this sector is against the backdrop of what was experienced by our people. This sector has a notorious record of replacing better-paying, more secure, formal jobs with primarily survivalist activities with very low incomes, which creates an enabling environment for poverty to deepen amongst the already poor.

The National Productivity Institute is an irrefutable champion of the holistic, innovative and sustained development of South Africa’s productive capacity. Congratulations to the chairperson of the board, Mr Ketan Lakhani, and executive director, Dr Yvonne Dladla, on their election as the president and secretary-general respectively on the interim board of the Pan African Productivity Association, PAPA for short. We salute these two South Africans for their role in taking a keen interest in areas of promoting and sharing ideas and experience on strategies, techniques and practices for productivity enhancement, accelerated economic growth and social development on the African continent. You have just started making your contribution to ensuring that this century is indeed an African century.

Since 1994 we have also seen the achievement of a dramatic rise in productivity levels, as opposed to the two decades of stagnant or declining productivity preceding the first democratic election. The programmes embarked upon by the NPI involve the popular social plan that prevents employment decline and ameliorates the impact of job loss on individuals and communities. It will be proper to share some of the successes that the NPI has scored during the period under review. Goodhope and Don Mines was faced with an economic downturn and was left with no option other than to dismiss workers on the grounds of operational requirements. The social plan of the NPI, with their turnaround strategy, stepped in and saved 124 jobs. The role played by the union in securing an investor to take over the business in this regard was remarkable.

Women in rural areas, in partnership with South African Breweries and the NPI launched three productivity projects as follows: one project called Thuthukane women’s project in Mpumalanga, the Basadi Ikageng project in the North West and the Tsoga a itirele project in Limpopo. All these projects are being carried out under the ANC Government.

In conclusion, more than just an economic imperative, the deracialisation and engendering of our economy is a moral requirement in keeping with the values and principles of equity enshrined in our Constitution. Issues of women in the labour market are real structural issues of the economy rather than being residual.

Away from shop-floor benefits and employment, we are proud that millions of our people now have access to clean water, electricity, a roof over their heads, improved health and education. The communities of Leroro, Moremela, Matibidi in Mpumalanga, through their Motlatse Forum chairperson, have requested me to pay tribute to the Minister for the skills they acquired from the Tourism, Hospitality and Sport Education and Training Authority recently. Due to organisational commitments I missed the graduation ceremony. Thank you. [Time expired.] [Applause.]

Mr N S MIDDLETON: Hon Chairman, hon colleagues, it is now an accepted fact that at every budget debate, nearly every speaker has expressed concern at the underfunding of the various portfolios by our Government. It is also an accepted fact that the previous system of apartheid is the main cause of our present financial dilemma. Of course there are other reasons pertaining to this.

Frederick Douglas, that black American slave, wrote during the 18th century:

We have to do with the past only as we can make it useful to the present and to the future. To all inspiring motives, to noble deeds which can be gained from the past, our fathers and mothers have lived and died. And we who are left must carry the burdens of tomorrow.

It has become more and more clear even to the socialist supporters that it is impossible to separate a policy on labour from that of a more global economic policy. It is no secret that globalisation, restructuring and the fast changing world of work is bringing more and more pressure from trade unions than ever before. Thus, the clear message to both trade unions and businesses is adapt, be relevant and add value unless you want to die a slow death.

Our labour policy must be seen as a part of a more generous and general economic policy - the one which emphasises improvements in both the macroeconomic and the microeconomic environments. Such a policy or policies cannot be separated from the general economic policy of any polical party of the country.

The IFP still believes that the ideal labour policy is one which ensures that the nation enjoys full employment and price stability. It is the obvious truth that all boats rise with the tide, that is, a nation that engages in solid, rational and workable solutions is bound to eventually succeed. It is for this reason that the IFP has always advocated the introduction of tax incentives in order to stimulate employment growth and minimal interference by Government in business and labour relations. The IFP has always advocated the introduction of more and more taxation benefits to the employers who establish and contribute to medical aids and to the pensions and provident schemes of their employees.

We should further encourage farmers who provide schooling and education services and housing to their workers, as well as their families, by granting them some form of tax relief as well. This should also apply to farmers who provide running water and sanitation facilities for their workers and families. They should also be granted more tax relief. This will all help to boost our economy. Whereas the IFP fully supports the present partnership between business, labour and Government as exemplified by Nedlac, it is still our contention that Government should assume a neutral position in labour versus business discussions. Our further concern is that Nedlac has become a forum for big businesses as well as big labour federations. This has resulted in the fact that smaller trade unions and smaller businesses are not being adequately represented. We have to address this problem in order to bring everybody on board.

Increases in the budget allocation to some of the seven department of labour programmes are highly appreciated even though insufficient. The allocation of the employment and skills development service which has been increased by R16,2 million is to be acknowledged. This programme focuses on the implementation of the National Skills Development Strategy and contributes to the implementation of the National Human Resource Development Strategy. However, we would have appreciated more allocations of funds to the Skills Delivery Programme as this is a programme that provides for the administration and the enforcement of labour laws as well as employment services.

The answer should be delivery, and more delivery through enforcement of labour laws. This enforcement should apply more so to the occupational health and safety of workers. Far too many workers are still getting injured or die due to improper occupational health and safety at workplaces. For all these reasons, besides all this, the IFP supports this Budget Vote. Thank you. [Applause.]

Ms H F MATLANYANE: Chairperson, employment is a focal pillar for social and economic transformation. Everything we do as a nation, as South Africans, revolves around us being able to create, and committed to creating enough employment. For poverty eradication, education and economic participation - local and global - job creation remains the most important priority of our Government.

A job gives a person not only an income, but also pride and respect in knowing that she or he has an opportunity to contribute to the economy and participate in the growth and building of our nation. So, for us to succeed in feeding our nation, is to get South Africa working. For us to compete globally, we need to create more jobs; we need sustainable and productive jobs. We need guidance and direction on the way forward. We need a long- term solution to tackle, fight and erode unemployment.

Job losses is not a problem that started after 1994. It is a cumulative problem we inherited from the previous political and economic policies. The Reynders Commission of Inquiry was appointed to look into the economic decline in the early seventies. This shows to what extent we inherited a mess as the ANC Government. The report notes that:

The Commission is convinced that the problems facing South Africa in this external sector are more than cyclical or temporary ones; they are, in fact, of a structural character, although temporary factors are also having an effect on the situation.

Hon members can get the report for further information. High population growth, lack of skills and lack of real economic growth contributed to a large extent.

Studies also point to an increase in levels of poverty and inequality. The South African Human Rights Commission Report on Economic and Social Rights

• the Taylor Report - released last year, Statistics South Africa, and the Idasa 2002 Afro Barometer all pointed out that the greatest concern was the high level of unemployment. We acknowledge the fact that unemployment is too high; that not enough jobs are being created. People who have been unemployed for a long time are no longer looking for employment. We need to bring hope back to our people by communicating the plans that Government has for job creation. We need to identify areas that block job creation.

Modulasetulo, re swanetše go lebelela gore ke eng seo re kago se dira gore re hlole mešomo. Tharollo ya pharela ye e letše go yo mongwe le yo mongwe yo a lego modudi wa Afrika-Borwa. Re swanetše go boledišana le batho ba rena ka kua ntle go bona gore leuba le la go se šome re ka le pota ka kae. Moswana o re ``Ditau tša hloka seboka di šitwa le ke nare e hlotša’’. Gore naga ya gaborena e gole, e kgone go hlola mešomo, le gona go ka beabeana le sebata se, go nyakega kgolo ya ikonomi yeo e nago le tlholego ya mešomo. Se ke tlhotlho go mang le mang yo a ratago le go hlologelwa go bona Afrika- Borwa e kgona go tšweletša le go hlola mešomo; re kgona go ba le tšweletšo ye kaone yeo e kago re bea maemong a makaone go lekana le mafase a kantle. (Translation of Sepedi paragraph follows.)

[Chairperson, we need to develop some policies that would ensure job creation. The solution to this problem requires the closer collaboration of each and every South African. We need to discuss with our people out there what strategies we can put into place so that together we can tackle the scourge of unemployment. An African injunction says: United we stand, divided we fall. For our country to develop and be able to overcome this monster of joblessness, we need to strive for viable economic growth that is aimed at job creation. This is indeed a challenge that faces all those who are longing to make South Africa a success story, especially with regard to productivity, economic growth and job creation that will place us on a par with other progressive countries worldwide.]

South Africa has enjoyed eight years of consecutive economic growth as significant achievements have been recorded since 1994. The economy has experienced resilience in the face of several external shocks and positive growth is forecast for 2003. What needs priority attention is the strengthening of the linkage between this growth and employment creation, poverty eradication and a marked reduction in labour market inequalities. In order to achieve this, we need policies that aim at the development of the economy, and that includes the ability to absorb labour that can create sustainable job opportunities, and to produce goods and services of high quality.

To increase the demand for labour we need to raise the special employment programmes and the absorption capacity of the economy. Key programmes to achieve these are: the Community-Based Public Works Programme; the Municipal Infrastructure Programme; the Working for Water programme; and clean cities, and land-care campaigns. We also need to preserve jobs in the private sector. We need to promote SMMEs. Evidence has shown that the labour absorption capacity of the small business sector is as high as in other developing countries. SMMEs have an innovative and technical contribution to make to the development of our country. The SMME sector has been identified as critical in achieving the goal of empowering communities historically oppressed by apartheid.

Small, black-owned businesses suffered various impediments under apartheid, and creating conditions for growth and development of the sector is an important goal of the transformation of our country. The small and medium enterprises sector of the economy is thus important to the future prospects of our country, in terms of employment, growth, black economic empowerment, innovation and competitiveness.

The Jobs Summit of 1998 culminated in research that was done by the Labour Market Commission of Inquiry. The report noted that key South African economic sectors have been subjected to the process of structural changes for some time. The Jobs Summit was used to urge Government, labour and business to commit themselves to special partnerships in economic affairs.

There is a social plan that came after the Jobs Summit. The agreement notes that job growth and job creation are urgent priorities, and it aims to avoid job losses and an employment decline wherever possible. It also envisages support for communities that have suffered large-scale retrenchment. This is spearheaded by the Ministry for Provincial and Local Government in line with the summit agreement on local economic regeneration. In the Mooi River local authority the Department of Provincial and Local Government, the Department of Labour and the Provincial Economic Council are working together to identify new opportunities for income generation.

Modulasetulo, tš e ka moka ke maitekelo a go fediša tlala le go hlola mešomo. Yo mongwe le yo mongwe o tšeya karolo go bontšha ka moo Afrika- Borwa e kago lwantšha le go tloša tlala le bodiidi ka gona. Mo re bontšha ka moo ge bohle re ka tlogela go hlwe re šupana ka menwana re kago tsentšha seatla go bona gore … (Translation of Sepedi paragraph follows.)

[These efforts are aimed at poverty eradication and job creation. Each and every one of us needs to ensure that South Africa has the capacity to end poverty. We are trying to show to what extent it would benefit us if we all stopped slinging mud at one another and started contributing towards our economic development so as to ensure that …]

We get South Africans working, so that each and every one of us can participate in ensuring that our people are employed. The following structures were formed to oversee the programmes that were agreed upon in the Jobs Summit. The Cabinet Interministerial Committee is chaired by the Minister of Labour - this is to ensure that the agreements reached are monitored and implemented. There is the Jobs Summit Supervisory Structure that was established. It consists of labour, business and the community constituency, established to review the progress. The Department of Trade and Industry is responsible for integrated provincial projects. The Department of Labour is responsible for managing the process of registering job sectors and also enhancing their skills to match new opportunities.

The business community established a business trust that funded work in the education sector, as well as supporting growth in the tourism sector. The trade union movement formed the Job Creation Trust with a special committee to investigate specific criteria for project funding, and the launching of those projects is expected to be this year.

In his state of the nation address, President Mbeki stated:

Our country has a continuing task to push back the frontiers of poverty, and to expand a better life for all. The challenges we all face as South Africans, is to put our shoulders to the wheel to accelerate the pace of change.

The purpose of the Growth and Development Summit is to respond to the President’s call. The much-awaited Growth and Development Summit is scheduled to be held early next month.

South Africa depends on human resources development to encourage economic growth. Legislation like the Skills Development Act and the Skills Development Levies Act should be utilised to their full potential to improve skills among the population in the workplace. The Skills Development Act moves the country towards building real skills, and the Skills Development Levies Act funds the process envisaged by the former. Moreover, these pieces of legislation should promote employability for the population. One measure of promoting employability is to focus on all skills development areas, like science and technology. Chairperson, the ANC the supports the budget. Thank you. [Applause.]

Mr S PILLAY: Chairperson, Chris lived in Kliptown, where the historic Freedom Charter was adopted. He was diagnosed with HIV and has subsequently passed on before he could reap the fruits envisaged by the Charter. He did not receive any benefits from his employer while he was ill - no insurance company would insure him, not even for a funeral policy. His wife and three minor children are destitute. Chris was one of the many vulnerable workers in our country; somehow our system failed him. That is a stark reality.

I would like to see this budget make a serious effort in protecting such vulnerable workers. I am aware that the Minister launched the Technical Assistance Guidelines. However, I would like the Minister to provide a clear explanation of what the exact status of the guidelines. Is it enforceable in any way; if so, by whom? Or, is there an assumption that all employers will exercise their social conscience and act humanely? That didn’t happen in the case of Chris.

Chairperson, there are thousands of people like Chris. The question in this regard is: Does this budget in any way address the matter? In a question to the Minister of Health on 20 September 2002, the hon Bakker asked the Minister whether the department had calculated the cost in the South African labour market of the loss of productivity due to HIV/Aids. Her reply was that the Department of Health has not yet quantified the fiscal implications of HIV/Aids in the South African labour market. Such a study will require an intergovernmental approach. I would like the Minister of Labour to provide us with a clear explanation of how he intends to deal with this matter, and whether or not this budget caters for any research or studies. HIV/Aids is having a huge impact on the labour market and we need some clarity on the matter. If this budget does not cater for this issue, it is a matter of great concern. Of all inspections that were carried out by the department during 2002, about 9% of those were found to have contravened labour legislation. This is another area of concern to us, and we would prefer that this budget ensures a greater allocation to this activity by the department. There is an increase in cases that are reported to the CCMA. What is even more of an issue are those employees that are unable to access a labour centre, where they may be able to obtain assistance. The department should make a greater effort in ensuring compliance with labour legislation. Often one hears of driver fatigue with regard to road accidents. The Minister should ensure that more inspections are carried out in transport companies.

The number of complaints to the CCMA by retail workers has increased, and together with the security industry, this constitutes the largest percentage of complaints. It is therefore imperative that the department reviews its inspection methodology and rate in those sectors. Such inspections must be intensified and increased in frequency. Clearly these economic sectors warrant additional attention. We would like to see occupational health and safety receive a higher budget allocation to enhance its performance level.

Unemployment, HIV/Aids and poverty are a triad of issues that create havoc, and are steadily and surely breaking down the fabric of our society. The task of dealing with unemployment is immense and once again a major portion of that task falls on your shoulders, hon Minister. The triad of problems affects all of Africa, and it does not help us in any way to find floods of people from all over the world coming into South Africa. People from Eastern Europe, the Far East, Asia, and Africa arrive here on a daily basis

• a tiny fraction enters the country legally, whilst a huge and virtually unknown number are here illegally. All the major cities of South Africa have an influx of illegal immigrants. Our social services are being stretched to their limits, whilst unemployed and poor South Africans languish in rural areas. It is a national problem, and we must recognise and take measures to manage it. Hon Minister, one has to find solutions to unemployment here in South Africa, being mindful of the imperative issues regarding Nepad. A balance has to be created in this sector. Hopefully when Home Affairs begins to function in a better way, it will help regulate the entry of people into the country. Both private and public sectors are shedding jobs. Surely the time must be now for that to stop. Perhaps the Minister can also indicate whether or not his department has any plans to assist the Department of Education with career guidance in schools. It would be helpful to job- seekers if they received additional advice from the Department of Labour, whilst completing their studies. Some Setas have accredited community organizations … Thank you. [Time expired.]

Adv Z L MADASA: The question to be answered in this debate is whether the budget allocated has been fully utilised for the stated objectives or targets in the budget. Generally we know that the department has done well but in future the budget ought to be laid for intended output in accordance with PFLA principles. Such an approach to budgeting will not only help the department to measure its performance, but also the portfolio committee, thereby enhancing accountability.

Despite a competent restructuring programme, we still find unfilled vacancies. This is not good, especially in view of unemployment, especially in the Department of Labour. If these vacancies are redundant, the department must say so. An important principle in lawmaking is the doctrine of effectiveness of legislation. The continued problems of enforcement, of passed laws by the department are repugnant to the doctrine of effectiveness. The department must attend to these difficulties urgently.

Lastly, the impact of minimum wages needs to be carefully looked at with regard to emerging farmers and not so rich farmers. Despite that, the ACDP supports the Budget Vote. Thank you.

Mr M J G MZONDEKI: Thank you Deputy Chair. It is important that as we enter this debate today we also reflect on the history of the workers of this country. It is important to reflect on this history because it is the history that will make us strive not to to go back to that situation again.

I am talking about the history when the workers had no rights in this country. I am talking about the time when there was nothing wrong about employers not reporting accidents; nothing wrong about workers not getting decent salaries; nothing wrong about not training and developing workers. There was nothing wrong about all these as long as the employers made enough profit for themselves and invested nothing in their workers. There was nothing wrong about unfair dismissals and unfair labour practice. It was not uncommon for employers to instruct employees not to report accidents because they would lose awards such as accident-free awards and bonuses.

It was these awards that enabled supervisors, then mainly white and male, to be considered for promotions. They were getting these promotions because they were deliberately misinforming the owners of the companies so that they were seen as efficient managers who created accident-free environments. Some of the people are still suffering the consequences today.

Since the democratic dispensation when the people of this country spoke in their majority and said the ANC shall govern, we have seen drastic changes in the labour environment. We have legislation in place that ensures the protection of workers. We have institutions such as the CCMA and the labour courts where workers can refer their cases for unfair labour practices. We have ratified ILO conventions. Our workers can freely associate and belong to unions in order to use their collective power to continue to fight for a better life and push back the frontiers of poverty.

In my debate today I will focus on two areas, namely, occupational health and safety as well as compensation. The Occupational Health and Safety of Persons Programme promotes the health and safety of people in the workplace through regulating the use of plant machinery and dangerous activities. The objective of this programme is to develop and force safety enhancing labour legislation in order to reduce occupational injuries and diseases. The ANC welcomes the progressive increase to this programme which will enable the appointment of more inspectors and increase the capacity of the department to carry out special investigations. We hope that through this programme we will see more blitz inspections at companies. Hon Minister, we appreciate the amount of work and commitment by your department to reduce workplace accidents.

We also believe that through the Occupational Health and Safety Accord, signed last year by the social partners, Government, organised labour and organised business, which embraces the principles enshrined in the ILO convention 155 and 176, they will continue to commit themselves to working together in the OHSA.

The second area I will discuss is compensation which falls under the social insurance programme. My other colleagues will talk to the UIF. Employees sustaining occupational injuries or diseases in the course of their employment, are provided with compensation for such disablement, death or matters connected therewith through the Compensation for Occupational Injuries and Diseases Act, which is administered by the compensation fund.

The question I want to raise is whether employees are adequately compensated for their injuries or death. Whether as a caring nation we care enough for those that through such disablement need more specialised care, and whether we care sufficiently for dependants of those that die in the course of duty.

Mponyana Mogeti is a contract worker in one of the Free State mines. He is covered under COIDA and sustained his injuries in November 2002. He is a paraplegic, using a wheelchair. He comes from the mountains of Lesotho. When I visited him at the hospital in April this year, he had almost finished his rehabilitation.

Mponyana had not received his payments for three months at the time of visiting him. Mponyana had also indicated to his rehabilitation team that he would have to relocate because his residence in Lesotho is not accessible by wheelchair. Mponyana is therefore unable to visit his home while he is still in rehabilitation because this is not provided for by the Act.

He relies on the mercy of his employer to decide whether he would make such a donation or not. Nothing compels the employer to assist, except out of a sense of social responsibility. Some companies have a policy that can address such a problem. Others do not because nothing compels them. I do not know whether we can say Mponyana is well cared for and whether we can say that he will be well compensated for his injuries. One thing is certain and that is that he has no guarantee of a job.

This is just but one of such cases that indicate a need to relook at our compensation system. I hope that as we engage ourselves in the comprehensive social security debate, we will be able to find solutions to these problems.

During my visit to the constituency, the following issues were raised by workers, medical staff and other members of the community. Incomplete accident reports by employers - the hospital staff state that some employers bring blank accident forms because they do not know how to fill out these forms. Delays in the enquiries - they state that they get delayed responses from the officers or sometimes they get no answers at all. Delays in compensation payouts - sometimes these claims are only paid out after the employee has already been discharged from his employ. This places a burden on the employee who wants to track or trace his or her claim by either travelling to the hospital or to his place of employment.

The added burden is that such a person is not earning any income. Assessment queries - there are instances where the assessment panel queried a doctor’s report and this causes great delays. And the list is long. Outpatients who need to be transported daily from work to hospital seldom arrive on time or regularly, which delays their recovery period. The recommendations from constituencies to solve some of the problems were that all labour centres be well-equipped to handle such claims; that there is a need for company policies to be reviewed to ensure that they cover needs that are otherwise not covered under COIDA; that the employers must be educated to fill out accident reports correctly to avoid delays. This is a very strong appeal from the constituencies that these matters receive attention.

I know that there are many such problems that we come across in our various constituencies. But let me say that the department is aware of some of these problems. Initiatives such as the automation of the compensation system, the improvement of the ITC system and the decentralisation of claims enquiries to some labour centres are all aimed at improving service delivery to injured workers.

The ANC strongly believes that public representatives can play a significant role in improving service delivery by taking up these matters consistently with the department or the officials concerned. They can also play a role by conducting education campaigns on these matters, both to employers and employees, without undermining the role that the trade unions play. Our efforts will only enhance the public information campaign that the department has already embarked upon.

The ANC supports this Budget Vote and believes that it will assist in pushing back the frontiers of poverty. Thank you. [Applause.]

Mnr P J GROENEWALD: Mnr die Voorsitter, die vraag is, wat is die taak van ‘n Minister van Arbeid? Die Minister van Arbeid moet toesien dat die land ‘n groeiende en tevrede werkerskorps het. Die vraag is, wat is die rekord van die agb Minister? Een toets vir die agb Minister is as ons kyk na die werkloosheidsyfer.

Kom ons kyk wat was die werklike werkloosheidsyfer die afgelope aantal jare onder die bestuur van die agb Minister. Volgens die eng definisie was die werkloosheidsyfer in September 2000 25,8%. In September 2001 styg dit tot 29,5% en in September 2002 tot 30,5%. Oor drie jaar is dit ‘n toename van ongeveer 5%, en dít uit ‘n ekonomies aktiewe bevolking van ongeveer 18 miljoen mense.

As ons egter kyk na die breë definisie sien ons die werkloosheidsyfer was in September 2000 35,9%. In September 2002 eindig dit op 41,8%. Die breë definisie is meer van toepassing, want dit is mense sonder werk, wat net nie die stappe gedoen het om werk te soek nie. Suid-Afrika se werkloosheidsyfer is in werklikheid dus ongeveer 42%.

Die vraag kan gevra word, vanwaar die hoë toename en hoekom heers daar so ‘n hoë werkloosheidsyfer in ons land? Die antwoord is baie duidelik: Ons het ‘n Minister van Arbeid wat meer begaan is oor partypolitieke besluite en nie bekommerd is oor die land en sy mense nie. [Tussenwerpsels.] Die agb Minister stel wette op wat mense werkloos laat. ‘n Tipiese voorbeeld is die minimum loon vir huiswerkers. [Tussenwerpsels.]

Volgens Statistiek SA het in die tydperk Februarie 2002 tot September 2002 97 000 huiswerkers hulle werk verloor. [Tussenwerpsels.] Dit was die tydperk waarin dit aangekondig is dat die agb Minister ‘n minimum loon wil instel. [Tussenwerpsels.] Die instelling van ‘n minimum loon vir plaaswerkers moet nog verreken word. Aanduidings is dat tot 200 000 werkers hulle werk daardeur kan verloor. Hulle kan die agb Minister daarvoor bedank. [Tussenwerpsels.]

Nog ‘n goeie voorbeeld is die toepassing van regstellende optrede. [Tussenwerpsels.] Ek wil vir die agb Minister sê, regstellende optrede is niks anders as rassisme in die werkplek nie. [Tussenwerpsels.] Dis blatante diskriminasie teen blanke mense. Hoekom sê ek so? Die topleerling van Gauteng in 2001, Riaan Lizamore, met ‘n gemiddeld van 98,9% kon nie ‘n studiebeurs kry nie. Hy sê die meeste maatskappye se verweer is dat hulle nie beurse aan wit mans toeken nie. [Tussenwerpsels.]

Nog ‘n voorbeeld is Dewald van den Heever, wat 11 onderskeidings behaal het, en ná 50 pogings nie ‘n studiebeurs kon kry nie. Volgens hom het hy meer as een keer gehoor: “Meneer, weet jy nie wat die land se beleid ten opsigte van witmense is nie?” [Tussenwerpsels.] Die wette en die beleid wat die agb Minister van Arbeid instel, sê veral vir jong blankes hulle is nie welkom in die arbeidsmark in Suid-Afrika nie. [Tussenwerpsels.]

Ek wil vir die agb Minister sê solank as wat hy voortgaan met sy houding om ANC-politieke beleid uit te voer en nie in belang van almal in Suid-Afrika optree nie, sal werkloosheid bly toeneem. [Tussenwerpsels.] Die agb Minister dink hy verminder armoede, maar in werklikheid bevorder hy armoede deur te sorg dat mense hulle werk verloor.

My advies aan die agb Minister is: Hersien u arbeidswetgewing om dit beleggingsvriendelik te maak en beleggers te lok om werk te skep. Ek wil vir die agb Minister sê as hy nie beleggers in Suid-Afrika kry nie, as daar nie ‘n behoorlike ekonomiese groei is nie, en as hy nie ophou om te diskrimineer teen blankes in die werkplek nie, sal daar nie werk geskep word nie en sal daar nie beleggers wees nie. [Tussenwerpsels.]

As daar genoeg werk is vir almal, dan sal armoede verminder. Dan sal misdaad verminder. Dan is dit nie nodig vir regstellende optrede nie en sal lone van so ‘n aard wees dat almal goed sal kan begin lewe in hierdie land. Dankie, Voorsitter. [Tussenwerpsels.] (Translation of Afrikaans speech follows.)

[Mr P J GROENEWALD: Mr Chairperson, the question is, what is the task of the Minister of Labour? The Minister of Labour must see to it that the country has a growing and satisfied workers’ corps. The question is, what is the record thus far of the hon Minister? One test for the hon Minister is to take a look at the unemployment rate.

Let us look at what the real unemployment rate was during the past few years under the management of the hon Minister. According to the narrow definition the unemployment rate in September 2000 was 25,8%. In September 2001 it increased to 29,5% and in September 2002 to 30,5%. In three years it increased by approximately 5%, and that from an economically active population with approximately 18 million people.

However, if we look at the broad definition we see that the unemployment rate was 35,9% in September 2000. In September 2002 it ended at 41,8%. The broad definition is more relevant, because that refers to people who are not employed, who not merely took the steps to seek employment. South Africa’s unemployment rate, therefore, is in reality approximately 42%.

The question can be asked, where does this high increase emanate from, and why does such a high unemployment rate reign in our country? The answer is very clear: We have a Minister of Labour who is more concerned with party- political decisions and who is not concerned about the country and its people. [Interjections.] The hon Minister drafts legislation that leaves people unemployed. A typical example is the minimum wage for domestic workers. [Interjections.] According to Statistics SA, 97 000 domestic workers lost their work in the period from February 2002 to September 2002. [Interjections.] This was the period in which it was announced that the hon Minister wanted to implement a minimum wage. [Interjections.] The implementation of a minimum wage for farmworkers must still be calculated. Indications are that up to 200 000 workers could lose their work because of this. They can thank the hon the Minister for this. [Interjections.]

Another good example is the implementation of affirmative action. [Interjections.] I would like to say to the hon Minister that affirmative action is nothing more than racism in the workplace. [Interjections.] This is blatant discrimination against white people. Why do I say this? The top student of Gauteng in 2001, Riaan Lizamore, with an average of 98,9%, could not get a bursary. He says that the defence of most companies is that they cannot award bursaries to white men. [Interjections.]

Another example is Dewald van den Heever, who achieved 11 distinctions, and after 50 attempts could not get a bursary. According to him he had to hear more than once: ``Sir, do you not know what the country’s policy is with regard to white people?’’ [Interjections.] The laws and the policy that the hon Minister of Labour implements states, especially to young whites, that they are not welcome in the labour market in South Africa. [Interjections.]

I would like to say to the hon Minister that as long as he continues with his attitude to execute ANC political policies and does not act in the interests of everyone in South Africa, unemployment will increase. [Interjections.] The hon Minister thinks that he is reducing poverty, but in reality he is promoting poverty by ensuring that people lose their employment.

My advice to the hon Minister is: Review your labour legislation to make it investor-friendly and to attract investors to create employment. I would like to say to the hon Minister that if he does not attract investors to South Africa, if there is not proper economic growth, and if he does not cease to discriminate against whites in the workplace, employment will not be created and there will be no investors. [Interjections.]

If there is enough employment for everyone, then poverty will be reduced. Then crime will be reduced. Then it will not be necessary for affirmative action, and wages will be of such a nature that everyone will be able to begin to live well in this country. Thank you. Chairperson. [Interjections.]

Mr P J NEFOLOVHODWE: Deputy Chairperson, one of the biggest challenges for any government is the protection of workers from all kinds of exploitation as well as health and safety issues in the workplace. Azapo notes with appreciation that the protection of workers has advanced over the past years, and that this has culminated in the determination of minimum wages both for domestic workers and farmworkers. We regard this act by the department as a step that has made history for the vulnerable workers in our country. [Interjections.]

The department has indeed brought dignity to those who for many years were marginalised. [Applause.] The dignity and self-worth should now be jealously guarded by all of us and mechanisms should be found to make it easier for domestic wokers and farmworkers to challenge dismissals and other forms of discrimination faster than at present.

As a former trade unionist, I know how difficult it is for an ordinary worker to have his or her matter brought before the courts or the CCMA. I also know that many farmworkers and domestic workers do not belong to trade unions, and as a result they would not even know where the CCMA offices are. Therefore I urge the Government to do something about this so that they can get protection and get some help from those who have knowledge.

Reports in the media have indicated that farmers as well as domestic workers’ employers have in the past month dismissed workers on the basis that the new regulation from the department prescribe salaries that they cannot afford.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order, hon member, your speaking time has expired.

Mr P J NEFOLOVHODWE: Oh no! [Interjections.] [Applause.]

Miss S RAJBALLY: Thank you, Chairperson. I also stand here today as a former trade unionist of 40 years’ standing. Phansi ngomzabalazo wabasebenzi phansi! [Down with the labour struggle, down!]

HON MEMBERS: Phambili! [Forward!]

Ms S RAJBALLY: Phambili! Phansi-ke manje. [Now forward, this time!]

No more struggle; we’re going forward! [Laughter.] Is there a need to mention how much poverty has eaten away at our society?

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! Miss S RAJBALLY: Poverty, starvation and unemployment Government strives to overcome. Sustainable development, better living conditions for all, employment and many more ideals are what we are striving to achieve.

This department has taken the horrific statistics of unemployment and is correcting the injustice and inequality of the past regime in all spheres with regard to colour, sex, through job creation in many sustainable developments and overcoming poverty. Unfortunately, after all this time, poverty and unemployment is still rife and it is a duty …

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order!

Miss S RAJBALLY: … for Government and our people to overcome.

The MF strongly supports the vision and mission of the department with its primary intention to encourage economic growth, investment and employment creation. A major factor that hinders employment is that more than 50% of our citizenry is illiterate, and creating skills development is very hard, but programmes have been introduced by the department, not only to promote rising skills, but to institute equity.

Sound labour relations, respect for employment standards and workers’ rights are all important factors in instituting a valid system of labour. What is more encouraging to note is that the department has, through its programmes, committed itself to reducing unemployment, poverty and inequality. The determination in improving economic efficiency and productivity certainly is an asset in view of the global advancement and standards. Through skills development there is a greater, more workable and stronger labour supply.

Eliminating inequality and discrimination in the workplace is crucial to attaining equity in our community, and abiding by the Constitution and its supremacy. Through creating more jobs there is an increase in employment, thus alleviating poverty.

Another factor that is pleasing is that the department is taking the killer epidemic HIV/Aids very seriously, and notes the serious effect it has on our labour force and economy. Our hon Minister of Labour has ensured that the Technical Assistance Guidelines, TAG, on HIV/Aids and employment are part of the department’s programme. This strengthens the department as a contributor in meeting the global and national challenge.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! Hon member, your speaking time has expired.

Miss S RAJBALLY: The MF supports Budget Vote No 17. Thank you. [Applause.]

Mr K MOONSAMY: Comrade Deputy Chairperson, Comrade Minister, Comrade Deputy Minister, hon members and comrades, I take the podium to support Budget Vote No 17. Comrade Deputy Chairperson, we continue to face many and varied challenges in bringing about much needed reform in the labour market. It is all too clear that even today the legacy of the apartheid labour market continues to weigh heavily on the workers of our country. Therefore, as we look towards reinforcing the gains that we have made since 1994, we are reminded, in the words of Comrade President, of our “continual task to push back the frontiers of poverty and expand access to a better life for all”.

Here, as the ANC, we are acutely aware that securing the rights of all workers is vital to achieving this better life for all. Some of our key challenges remain therefore to addressing high unemployment rates, work- based inequality and discrimination and the exploitation of vulnerable workers in the labour market.

Comrade Deputy Chairperson, it is the last two of these points that I wish to deal with, employment equity and protecting the rights of vulnerable workers through sectoral determinations for the domestic and agricultural sectors. The Employment Equity Act of 1998 is the primary tool for advancing constitutional rights to equality in the labour market. That we were able to steer the Act through Parliament despite strong resistance from opposition parties constitutes a significant victory for the majority of this country. It is also a testament to the ANC’s commitment to ensure that there is redress for past discrimination. We must be mindful that we will be called on time and again to defend this gain. On this note we must challenge very rigorously any misconceptions that employment equity and affirmative action is job reservation.

The Employment Equity Act has been in operation for almost four years. We now have the benefit of the analysis of the first two Employment Equity Registry Reports, which provide data based on the employment equity reports submitted by designated employers for 2000 and 2001. It is, therefore, now opportune for us to review the progress made thus far in implementation.

The reports by the Commission for Employment Equity indicate that while some progress has been made, the pace has been very slow. We need to intensify our efforts to ensure that workplaces in our country become truly representative across all occupations, levels and sectors. There is still clear racial and gender stratification in the workplace, with black people and women still being underrepresented in top and senior management positions. Employers are giving far too little attention to employees with disabilities, with representation being low across all occupational levels.

For those who have been complying with the spirit of the Employment Equity Act, they are symbols of what is possible by responsible employers in a postapartheid labour market. However, the many others who see employment equity as an unnecessary operational cost and not their moral duty, see barriers where there should be opportunities. Complaints about the unavailability of skills and poaching of employees from designated groups reflect a lack of commitment to implementing our skills development legislative framework, which would enable and support the implementation of the Employment Equity Act.

Here we are reminded of the resistance we encountered in the process leading to the enactment of the Employment Equity Act. Therefore, as the ANC, we are not surprised by the resistance we now experience, and are in fact emboldened to intensify our efforts to ensure the realisation of equity, and thereby increase the democratisation of the workplace.

Comrade Deputy Chairperson, let us now deal with unequal employment relations of a different kind. The labour market that we inherited reflects that inequality is deeply structural in nature, with black people concentrated in unskilled and semiskilled positions. Here, notions of the meaning of ``skilled’’ has undoubtedly been influenced by our racist past, with those occupations that are associated with black people being considered of lower value and therefore deserving of minimal pay and benefits. This has resulted in the super exploitation of the most vulnerable workers, being domestic workers and farmworkers. Nearly 10% of all South African workers are domestic workers, with domestic work constituting the single most important form of paid employment for black women. However, after farmworkers it is the lowest paid. With increased shedding in the agricultural sector the picture currently is unclear. However, until recently agricultural employment constituted 11,4% of South Africa’s total formal employment.

These figures illustrate that reform within these two sectors will contribute substantially to the overall transformation of the labour market. However, virtually every other day there are reports of maltreatment and physical abuse. We often hear about farmworkers being paid slave wages of as little as R100 per month and that they are subjected to unacceptable working and living conditions. Occupational health obligations are severely neglected, with workers not being informed or too afraid to complain. In both sectors workers are often required to work longer hours than the legal limit with no compensation for overtime and are not granted paid annual leave.

According to a recent report in the City Press an employer deducted R1 200 from a domestic worker’s salary of R1 400 for allegedly poisoning her dog. These are only some of the wide range of abuses that domestic workers and farmworkers are subjected to. Surely, then, one of the most important achievements over the past twelve months in the labour market has been the bringing into law of the sectoral determinations for the agricultural and domestic sectors. Added to this is the recent introduction of the Unemployment Insurance Act’s application to seasonal and domestic workers, which constitutes a major step towards addressing the conditions in both of these vulnerable sectors of employment. Together with the Basic Conditions of Employment Act and the Skills Development Act, we can only come to the conclusion that we have transformed the labour landscape of the agricultural and domestic sectors and have begun to meet the long standing plight of these workers for recognition and at least a minimum wage.

Our key concern has to be to ensure that all employers understand why we have intervened in the way we have in these vulnerable sectors, and that they adhere to the legislation and follow procedures where difficulties arise. Secondly, that we not only retain the existing employment levels in these sectors, but make use of the Skills Development Act in these vulnerable sectors to ensure the creation of new employment opportunities. For those employers who have registered their domestic workers and who are paying the prescribed minimums, they are an example of a shift in the mindset that has dominated this sector for centuries in this country, starting with the arrival of colonialism on our shores.

Our philosophy which underpins declaring specific sectors as vulnerable, is rooted in the philosophy that guided the drafting of our Constitution. In this the Bill of Rights is fundamental and therefore any part of the labour market which is not in line with the Bill of Rights must by definition be transformed through the mechanism of sectoral determination. No one can deny that both agricultural and domestic sectors have been totally undervalued in terms of their contribution to the GDP of our country. Though marginalised for so long, they have made a contribution to the running of our economy in a manner that is yet to be measured.

What we have achieved through sectoral determination of these vulnerable sectors is to challenge the isolation, invisibility, low levels of organisation, unequal power relations and highly individualised employment relations. In addition, with over 930 000 agricultural workers and 800 000 domestic workers, regulation of these sectors is an act of responsible governance. The reality that we have to face up to is one in which most employers have disregarded the Basic Conditions of Employment Act, especially on overtime pay, Sunday pay and the continued practice of payment in kind which makes it difficult to determine the monetary value of this when trying to set norms and standards in the vulnerable sectors. Very often benefits such as food, clothes, medical assistance, where provided, are more often than not provided free of charge. However, no conclusive proof can be found that lower wages are paid in lieu of such benefits. Farmworkers are the worst paid sector workers.

Comrade Deputy Chairperson, let us deal with the negative reaction that has come from certain quarters over the sectoral determinations. In setting minimums in these two vulnerable sectors we have had to take a very considered approach, namely, the needs of domestic workers and employers; the impact of minimum wages on poverty alleviation; the impact of minimum wages on employment creation; and the wage levels that existed. The impact of the new labour laws since 1994 has not had a negative impact on employment levels and therefore it clearly shows the need for existing employment levels to be increased. However, we are now confronted by a series of threats and in many cases actual loss of employment.

Comrade Deputy Chairperson, what we cannot accept is a practice of circumvention and conscious avoidance of legal responsibility. In setting out sectoral determinations we are testing our humaneness in the improvement of the living standards of the most exploited workers in our society. Urban and rural differentials have been taken into account when setting minimum wages. Here the hon Minister of Labour has indicated that the two differentials, R650 and R800, have been deliberately set low.

These therefore, do not constitute a minimum living wage. Where even these low minima pose a danger of seriously either bankrupting a particular business in the agricultural sector or seriously impoverishing a domestic employer, the sectoral determination provided for individuals to apply for exemption. Nothing could be fairer than this. Whilst many have complied in the spirit in which the sectoral determination was passed, we have those who have indulged in conduct that indicates that we have a long way to go in changing the mindset in these sectors. In the domestic sector we have cases where employers have sacked workers and recruited new workers from mushrooming employment agencies in this sector.

In the agricultural sector workers are being sacked whilst farmers claim that they can’t afford to employ, even though provision has been made for exemption in the case of hardship. What is worse is that we now have to contend with groups of farmers legally challenging the Ministry of Labour through their lawyers in open disregard of the fact that all applications have to be received individually.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! Hon member your speaking time has expired.

Mr K MOONSAMY: Comrade Chairperson, thank you. [Applause.]

Mr C AUCAMP: Hon Moonsamy, I can give you a tip: 150 words per minute and you will make it.

Chairperson, The Employment Equity Act and the Promotion of Equality Act of 2000 clearly stipulates that disabled people are part of the designated group intended to benefit from affirmative action. No part of the Employment Equity Act stipulates that handicapped or disabled persons are less entitled to affirmative action treatment than other groups. But, hon Minister, practically all South Africans with disabilities are unemployed and the few who are fortunate enough to be employed, do not succeed in achieving higher positions.

When all these factors are considered, it should be obvious that this group needs the highest level of official intervention, since they are in the most disadvantaged position of all the designated population segments. Whereas black people and women are historically disadvantaged, people with disabilities are both historically and currently disadvantaged.

The Department of Labour only incidentally refers to disabled persons in its report from the Commission for Employment Equity. The main thrust is clearly aimed at black people and, to a lesser extent, women. There is even an admission in that report that no progress has been made in the employment of disabled people.

In the Department of Labour’s Green Paper on Inequalities in the Labour Market, it is stated that only one in every 100 disabled persons is employed in the formal labour market.

Hon Minister, the question is, is Government paying lip service to the promotion of this designated group? Is the inclusion of disabled persons in the definition of designated groups only a decoy to soften resistance against the real intention of the relevant laws, namely, reversed racial discrimination?

That brings me to the crucial matter of affirmative action. The hon Manie said …

Hy sê ons jaag spoke op; kyk na die syfers, hoe baie wit mense is nog in die werk. Maar in dieselfde asem sê hy daardie syfers moet omgekeer word; dit moet totaal verander word. [He says we are invoking spectres; look at the figures, how many white people are still working. But in the same breath he says those figures must be turned around; they must be changed totally.]

One of the stated aims of the Employment Equity Act is to transform the workforce of South Africa to such an extent that it will be representative of the demographics of the population. What is the impact of this aim?

En hier gee ek graag erkenning aan mnr Dirk Hermann van Solidariteit vir die volgende inligting. [And here I take pleasure in acknowledging Mr Dirk Hermann of solidarity for the following information.]

Using information from Statistics SA’s 1996 Census, it was determined that whites form 12,2% of South Africa’s population between the ages of 15 and 65, the potentially economically active age group.

According to the aim of the Act, whites should thus constitute 12,2% of the workforce, while at present 20,4% of the force is white. This implies a surplus of 750 000 whites in the labour market, if measured against the ultimate aim of the Act. In terms of the Act this imbalance should be corrected. The question is how it can happen without discriminating unfairly against whites and without creating a new disadvantaged community. The best way would be for the economy to grow to such an extent that thousands of job opportunities can be created. Unfortunately our economic growth is lower than the population growth, making this impossible.

The only remaining option to meet the demands of the Act, is to replace the 750 000 whites with blacks. Even if the decision is made not to dismiss whites, but to wait for the normal processes of resignation and retirement, it will take, according to Dr Louis Botma of Free State University, up to 30 years. The aim of the Act could therefore have dire consequences for all young whites trying to enter the labour market over the next 30 years.

Hon Minister, can you answer this question today, once and for all: Are you going to revise this aim of the Act? Is this part of the unforeseen consequences of the labour policy that should be revised? Or must white South Africans accept the reality that they are overstocked? Can you say yes, with 750 000 in the labour market and that this figure is to be worked off in future? If so, what is your government’s plan with these 750 000 whites whom you so often call part of the people to whom South Africa belongs? I thank you.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON: Order! Hon member, your speaking time has expired.

Mr C M LOWE: I have limited time at my disposal, Minister, therefore I shall be direct and to the point. Forgive me, I shall also be blunt.

Your department faces a labour crisis of epic proportions with the latest unemployment statistics and jobless situation a shameful and appalling indictment of the ANC’s failure to deliver on the one thing it promised so vehemently to do: To provide jobs. While that great liar, Yengeni, has gone, the same cannot, unfortunately, be said of that other ANC false promise about jobs.

As you know, Minister, there are no new jobs. Frankly, like the much talked of, often promised, but seldom seen growth rates and moral regeneration campaign, jobs too have failed to materialise under an ANC regime hell-bent on control at any cost; choosing dogma over doing well; inflexibility over investment; ensuring that they flail about in the murky darkness of joblessness - unsure, unwilling and unable.

For a party that claims unashamedly to represent the poor, to speak for the disadvantaged, to defend the weak and deliver the services, the reality must be truly hard to bear. After nearly a decade of the ANC rolling back the frontiers of poverty, we have 1 million jobs lost and nearly 42% unemployed - and those figures are not from Stats SA, so we can believe them! One in every three South Africans, over 7 million people, is either looking for a job or has given up looking …

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON: Order! Order!

Mr C M LOWE: … realising that they are not going to find a job.

And how has Government met this jobs crisis, our country’s gravest challenge? Not by making investment and growth its single-minded obsession, but by being arrogant, intransigent, more inflexible; by blaming everybody

• anybody but itself; by looking backward and blaming the past, instead of looking forward and embracing the future; and because of its rigid, inflexible, stupid and draconian labour legislation.

How dare you talk of a better life for all, Minister, when 7 million of our people cannot find a job?

Instead of listening to sound advice from various quarters and amending your draconian labour legislation and abolishing exchange control, both of which will kick-start new job opportunities, Government tries to keep awkward topics like Gear and HIV/Aids off next months’s Growth Summit and allows the ANC/NNP controlled Cape Town metropole to racially reallocate thousands of posts for other population groups, so that thousands of black and coloured male unskilled workers will lose their positions and join the 40% plus unemployed, while white men and women and coloured women replace them in a piece of social engineering so bizarre that it belongs in apartheid utopia. Not only does the ANC not know what to do about the mounting jobs crisis but, by their words and actions, they simply do not give a damn.

In contrast, the DA believes that unemployment is the worst possible working condition, and addressing this should be our nation’s priority. This starts, Minister, with amending inflexible and impractical labour laws to encourage employers to take on new hands - not to do everything to avoid taking them on.

A departmental slogan outside today reads “Changes that improve the law for everyone-!” But they do not. The problem is that not everyone is employed. In fact, nearly half of all South Africans do not have a job. And until these changes apply to them, until they have the security and the dignity of a job, that legislation will remain meaningless. And so too will the ANC’s promise of a job. I thank you.

Mr J DURAND: Thank you, Mr Deputy Chairman. I shall not use any party propaganda, but I would like to discuss the state of labour in this country, based on an article in the Sunday Times on Sunday.

The past nine years have been marked by the transformation of the labour market through the introduction of laws such as the Labour Relations Act, the Basic Conditions of Employment Act and the Skills Development Act.

Such laws are helping to redress imbalances caused by apartheid policies, while ensuring an improvement in working conditions and the general standard of living for many workers. Nowhere else in the world today do you find such impressive labour legislation. The labour laws are being reversed in Western countries and they have never even existed in many developing countries.

Away from the shop floor, workers have also benefited from many of the government’s service-delivery programmes aimed at uplifting the poor. Millions now have access to clean, running water and electricity, roofs over their heads and improved access to education and health. [Applause.]

The International Monetary Fund has praised South Africa’s economic management, saying the country was poised to achieve three percent economic growth in 2003. During the year under review revenue collections over- performed, expenditure management was enhanced by new legislation and a lower-than-budgeted deficit was recorded due to robust economic growth.

The IMF - not the political party - report also noted conditions in the labour market improved with the introduction of legislation to streamline the arbitration process and to allow for more flexibility in employment.

But, colleagues, according to Statistics SA, joblessness rose from 15% of the past five years of the labour force to over 30% by September last year. The number of unemployed has doubled to more than four million. These are conservative figures and exclude unemployed individuals who have been too discouraged to look for jobs. If they were included, the number of people without jobs would have ran to about seven million.

Job losses in traditional union strongholds such as manufacturing and mining are in line with the global trends - not a unique thing to South Africa. They result from the new realities of globalisation where labour- intensive industries are declining.

Minister, jobs are being created in the informal sector and by SMMEs in the formal sector. Government must thus investigate and find out what is it that Government needs to do to create jobs and an enabling environment where more jobs can be created. Employed workers in the formal sector have much to celebrate after 10 years of freedom, but the unemployed have paid with their economic life. I thank you. [Applause.]

Mnr D A A OLIFANT: Mnr die Adjunkvoorsitter, ek wil darem net sê dat dit baie duidelik is wie die mense is wat kom kla oor hierdie wette waarmee hulle nie tevrede is nie. Ons kan hulle opnoem: agb Groenewald, hoe lyk dit vir u? Agb Mark Lowe, hoe lyk dit vir u? Wie is die ander een? Hulle is almal so ``pale’’, want hulle wil hê ons moet teruggaan na die swaarkry toe.

Die agb Groenewald wil weer hê die huishulpe moet terug na die kombuiskamer toe gaan waar hulle net kos en koffie kan verdien. U weet u brein is so klein dat u vergeet het dat, ná daardie wonderlike uittog na Orania, nie lank daarna nie, het al daai huishulpe weer teruggehardloop na Suid-Afrika toe, want hulle kon nie die swaarkry vat nie - en dit was wit huishulpe! [Applous.]

So, ons moet nie vergeet waar ons vandaan kom nie. Ons moet versigtig wees wat ons ook sê. Verder, Meneer, wil ek net vir jou sê daai wit mannetjies wat vir jou sê dat die mense hulle nie in diens kan neem nie omdat die Minister so sê, vertel ‘n blatante leuen. Dit is onwettig en jy kan vir hulle sê hulle kan daai persone gaan aankla by die wet. Ek kan jou verseker jy kan dit doen, want my Minister sê nie dit in sy wette wat hy opstel nie.

Mev S V Kalyan: Ja, baas!

Mnr D A A Olifant: O jene, hoe gaan dit met jou dan? Moet nie dat ek jou naampie skreeu nie. Hou net jou mondjie. [Gelag.] (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)

[Mr D A A OLIFANT: Mr Deputy Chairperson, I would just like to say that it is very clear who the people are that come and complain about these laws what they are dissatisfied about. We can name them: Hon Groenewald, what does it look like to you? Hon Mark Lowe, what does it look like to you? Who is the other one? They are all so pale, because they want us to return to the difficult times.

The hon Groenewald in turn wants domestic workers to return to the kitchen where they can only earn food and coffee. You know, your brain is so small that you have forgotten, after that wonderful exodus to Orania, not long afterwards, those domestic workers hurried back to South Africa, because they could not handle the hardship, and they were white domestic workers. [Applause.]

So we must not forget where we come from. We must also be careful what we say. Furthermore, Sir, I just want to tell you that those little white men who tell you that people cannot employ them because the Minister says so, are telling a blatant lie. It is illegal and you can tell them that they can report those people to the authorities. I can assure you that you can do that, because my Minister does not say that in the laws that he draws up.

Mrs S V KALYAN: Yes, master!

Mr D A A OLIFANT: Oh dear, how are you doing then? Don’t let me shout out your little name. Just keep your little mouth shut. [Laughter.]]

Mr Minister, let me get back to my speech please. Let me leave this one; when this woman starts, there will be problems.

Significant progress has been made in ensuring that South Africa’s young democracy is built on a solid foundation. Most of the institutions that support democracy have been put in place. [Interjections.]

Mr D A A OLIFANT: I don’t want to handle a woman of your calibre. There is nothing there in any case.

As a result of the liberalisation of trade and exchange control, South Africa’s economy has opened to global forces, including access to new markets. Furthermore, South Africa’s corporate sector, Government and civil society levels play a much …

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! Order! Hon member we have an undertaking from all members that you will have interjections, but we have to maintain the decorum of this House. So I will not permit this cross- referencing where it actually begins to become disruptive of the process. So, please, you may interject, but you may do so on the basis that it does not totally disrupt the proceedings. Thank you. Hon member, you may proceed.

Mr D A A OLIFANT: Thank you. Furthermore, South Africa’s corporate sector, Government and civil society levels play a much more significant role in global debates through multilateral discussions and agreements. Of course there is no doubt that these achievements have contributed to a more sustainable and higher growth platform in our country.

Also, our country has a number of advantages and strengths which form part of the attraction for domestic and foreign investments. There is an abundance of natural resources; a well-developed and efficient capital market; world-class companies in a number of sectors and very good laws. And I must say your colleague, Charles Redcliffe, was there the other day when Business SA presented these, and he wholeheartedly agreed with that. Because this is what Business SA is telling us in this regard.

If the situation in our country is so bad, and in particular our labour laws, as Mark Lowe is saying - hon Mark … I hope you deserve that.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! Hon member, there is no qualification there. It is all hon members.

Mr D A A OLIFANT: If the situation in our country is so bad, as the opposition is saying, why are there companies such as DaimlerChrysler, BMW, Toyota, and Volkswagen. Why have they not packed their bags and gone to their countries if it was so bad? Why did Ford, General Motors, IBM and Mobil come back to the country if things were so bad? Instead these companies have opted to invest and to stay in this country so much so, because the quality we produce is of such a standard that they say build all our right-hand driven vehicles. And for that … [Interjections.] They are not going back. You’re dreaming that really.

If we were such a bunch of bad, unskilled people in our workforce, with no sense of quality workmanship, why did we get these vehicles to manufacture? And you know what, Ms Kalyan, we even won international awards for these kinds of standards and achievements. [Interjections.]

An HON MEMBER: She does not read the newspaper.

Mr D A A OLIFANT: She does not do that.

They did not say South Africa’s labour laws are bad. It is only this party that says that.

In a book named South Africa: How are you? leading economists - and these are Afrikaner people - Louis Fourie, Mike Schussler as well as J P Malan had the following to say, and I quote: ``Maybe not First World, but definitely first class. Our country has improved from 39% in 1985 to 63% to date.’’

That is the quote. And here are people who are saying things have not improved since 1994. They are definitely living in a dream world.

Tourism has grown in leaps and bounds and a significant number of jobs have been created in this sector. While there is job creation in other sectors of our industry, it is very true to say that our industries in general are shedding jobs at an alarming rate, and that is totally unacceptable. We want to re-emphasise that more focus should be on public works programmes and labour-incentive …

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! Are you rising on a point of order hon member?

Mr C M LOWE: I am, Mr Deputy Chairperson.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Yes, what is the point of order?

Mr C M LOWE: I would like to ask the hon member if he will take a question. [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! Hon member, when I asked you whether you were rising on a point of order, you indicated yes. You are in contempt of the Chair if you then proceed to some other subject. Thank you. Hon member, you may proceed.

Mr D A A OLIFANT: It is also a fact that …

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! There is no question. You asked for a point of order. There was no point of order. I don’t recognise you now. [Interjections.] Order! you may take your seat now. Hon member, proceed.

Mr D A A OLIFANT: I’m not going to lose my time. Mr Deputy Chairperson, it is also a fact that there is huge growth in the informal sector.

Mrs S V KALYAN: Point of order, Chairperson!

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Yes. Order! Hon member, what is your point of order?

Mrs S V KALYAN: My point of order is that the member is allowed to ask a question according to the decorum which was discussed at the Chief Whips’ Forum this morning. A point of order will constitute questions around procedure as well as a question to the speaker at the podium.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! Hon Ms Kalyan, I think you are totally incorrect in the supposition that you are making. A point of order is clearly a point of order and when one rises to ask whether a question can be taken, they are two separate, distinct things. The Chair is quite clear in recognising the two separate ideas and I think the argument that you are making has no validity whatsoever. Thank you. Hon member, you may proceed. [Applause.]

Mr D A A OLIFANT: Hulle mors net ‘n man se tyd. [They are just wasting a man’s time.]

It is also a fact that there is huge growth in the informal sector. You can see the flea markets and a myriad of other businesses, such as garden services, after-school care, crèches, dance classes, open-air hair salons, cellphone and car exhaust repairs as well as IT companies, of which some focus on website design in particular.

Do you think that these informal companies have robots doing their work? Absolutely not; it is human beings. There is a level of employment. It is also extremely difficult to give an accurate account of where those people are who lose their jobs in the formal sector who then go into the informal sector. It is also a known fact that South Africans are beginning to create jobs for themselves, because they are becoming business people. [Applause.]

And I also need to reflect, Mr Deputy Chairperson and Mr Minister, that the whole question of job shedding did not start in 1994. I mean we must not confuse ourselves. The whole question of job shedding started way back in the seventies and as a result of the skewed economy of this country, and where we were the losers at all times since that period, jobs have been lost. We mustn’t come here and confuse ourselves that we are just to blame. We are busy at this point and we are doing a remarkable job, and that is really to bring the economy and the structures of this economy into place, so that we can benefit at the end of the day. We are not making cheap politics about this, like the DP.

I must also tell you that in the mid-eighties, PW Botha started a quick-fix skills development programme, which turned out to be a big disaster. Now I want to tell you, hon Minister, the fact that you have now introduced programmes such as the Setas and the Skills Development Programme makes our future more certain in this particular country. We will be able to attract much more foreign investment now and thus create more job opportunities.

We also want to acknowledge that some Setas are very successful with their programmes and their implementation, while others leave much to be desired and we are appealing to the department to please do something about it. I just need to stress that the function of the Labour Ministry - Mr Lowe you must please listen - and the department is to ensure that good laws and procedures are being put in place to protect workers. It is only you people who complain about that. Our people who were at the receiving end never complained about these laws. Are you people complaining? No, we are not complaining. You people are complaining, because you want to go back to the days of exploitation. That’s what you want to do. Those days are gone. You must remember that.

Mr Minister, you have already said in your speech today that the initial target … [Interjections.] I wonder whether you lived in Bishopscourt. Didn’t you live in Marabastad? I wonder. [Laughter.]

You have already said in your speech today that the initial target of 3 000 persons for the learnership programme for 2000-01 have far exceeded your expectations with a whopping 23 517 persons to date that are already in the learnership programme, of which over 8 000 were unemployed. If we add, of course, the 17 000 that are currently in the programmes, then we are talking about over 41 000 people.

We want to congratulate you, Minister, because we believe in achievement. As the community of Atlantis we want to add to this ever-growing success. This coming Friday, 30 May 2003, a company called Atlantis Forge will launch its first learnership programme through Merseta and we promise that you can be assured of a very huge success. The reason for this is that this company has dislodged itself from the now defunct Atlantis Diesel Engines and pursued a direction of full adherence to and engagement in the growth employment equity programme by doing the following: Where this heavy engineering and automotive component manufacturing company was once white and coloured male dominated, it now has a high percentage of African men, African and coloured women as well as disabled men and women working on the shop floor. This is apart from the normal white women working there. These people are working on an equal footing with their able-bodied colleagues with industrial giants such as DaimlerChrysler - I’m coming back to that - Perkins, Ford, Caterpillar, Bell and Iveco. And these components are exclusively for export. This company has also introduced an apprenticeship programme as well as provided bursaries for the workers’ children and student engineers, of whom some are African, who are doing their internship at this company.

Having said all this, we also know the sad history of Atlantis as a true child of apartheid prostitution, unemployment and social problems. We hope, given this background, that Atlantis Forge will be a shining example of a company that is taking responsibility for its workforce and its community. We hope that other companies in Atlantis and other industries in other areas will follow suit.

Lastly, Deputy Chairperson, in supporting this budget and pushing back the frontiers of poverty, we in the ANC and the majority of South Africans know, Minister, that you have chosen the right path. With all these training programmes, the rights and protection of domestic workers and farmworkers as well as workers in other sectors, we can only say, don’t be misled by these whingers and whiners like the DA, which they are, but look around and see all the achievements that we have achieved in such a short period of time. I thank you. [Applause.]

UMPHATHISWA WEZABASEBENZI: Mhlalingaphambili, mandiqale ngokubulela onke amalungu athe athabatha inxaxheba apha. Ndisifundile isiqanaqwana sentetho yakho, mfo kaNefolovhodwe, kanti kuwe Mama uRajbally ndibamba ngazibini. Amalungu eNkongolo sesiwaxelele ukuba asijiki, siya phambili nokuba sekumnyam’ entla. Ndibamba ngazibini.

Andingekhe ke kodwa ndihlale phantsi ndingakhange ndiwulungise lo mcimbi weli lungu, ohloniphekileyo uGroenewald kunye neli qela likweli cala. Kungelishwa ukuba libe ngasekhohlo apha kum.

Andazi ukuba i-DA ibathabathi phi oothwantu bamaqiqisholo eziqihela zezinyhola. [Kwahlekwa.] [uwele-wele.] Ithetha loo nto kanye. (Translation of isiXhosa paragraphs follows.)

[The MINISTER OF LABOUR: Chairperson, let me start off by thanking all hon members who took part in this debate. I’ve read a portion of your contribution, hon Nefolovhodwe, and to you, Mama Rajbally, I say thank you. We have already told members of the ANC that there is no turning back, we are moving ahead, rain or shine. Thank you.

Indeed, I cannot leave the podium without correcting hon Groenewald and the party on my left. It is unfortunate that it is on my left. I don’t know where the DA gets its hopeless nincompoops. [Laughter.] [Interjections.] It means exactly that.]

Is it not embarrassing that the only contributions the DA can offer to the Growth and Development Summit are criticism and the rehash of the sterile debate that if we allowed workers to be killed at work and paid a slave wage, more investment would be raised and more jobs would be created? I’m not sure whether it is owing to a problem of collective, selective amnesia, or the turnover of DA labour spokespersons that this illegitimate debate is being rehashed, because less than two years ago the DA supported a set of amendments to labour legislation, aimed at sharpening the balance between labour market efficiency and decent labour standards. Our approach, as empirical evidence shows, has led to an improvement in workplace peace and stability and to a drastic reduction in person days lost to strike action.

If you don’t want peace and stability, what more do you want, DA? Do you want anarchy and chaos? Despite the DA’s self-righteous pontification on this matter, we shall proceed with the Growth and Development Summit and ensure that it succeeds, because the success of the summit shall constitute an important milestone in steering our country to a prosperous and glorious future, under the leadership of the ANC Government.

Such success will bring shame to those who unapologetically believe in market supremacy. However, since the majority of freedom-loving South Africans - black and white, hon Groenewald - share the dream of a South Africa that is characterised by high levels of growth and investment, since they share the dream of a country where there is equitable distribution of wealth, since they also share the dream of a country with an abundance of access to jobs and entrepreneurial opportunities, it is the responsibility of all of us to ensure that the collective dream of the majority of South Africans does not turn into a nightmare.

As creative participants in the reconstruction of a new order in our country, we must hold fast to our dreams. For if dreams die, our country will be like a broken-winged bird that cannot fly and a barren fleet frozen with snow. As our President once said, we as South Africans “must together run our own Comrades marathon as comrades who are ready to take the road together, refusing to be discouraged by the recognition that the road is very long, the inclines very steep and that, at times, what we see at the end is but a mirage”.

The President said further: “When the race is run, all humanity and ourselves will acknowledge the fact that we only succeeded because we believed in our own dreams.” Even if those dreams seemed impossible in 1955, we dreamed anyway. Even if they seemed improbable for more than three decades thereafter, we continued to dream. Even if these dreams seemed too ambitious in 1994, we pursued a strategy aimed at realising those dreams.

For its part, my department will confidently and enthusiastically continue to steer our country in the direction dreamed of by the majority of South Africans, recognising that this race is a marathon not a sprint. The distance is long and the surface on which we run is rough, but hardly a day goes by without us reducing the distance still to be covered. [Applause.]

For this reason I do want to thank those who made these advances possible. I want to thank our director-general, Adv Ramashia, and his hard-working team which is sitting there with him, and our new - very new - executive managing director in the Free State. Stand up, mama. Let Groenewald see you. [Applause.]

I say that he must see you, because the ANC has never had its struggle against white people. [Applause.] Ever since its inception in 1912, our struggle was against racism. [Applause.] The reason why we are firm Africans is precisely because of the problem that was created by your fathers. If there was no apartheid, then there would be no need for affirmative action.

Mr Groenewald, you are suffering from conveniently selective amnesia as well. [Laughter.] It is because we want to undo what your ancestors did through the job reservations Act - remember that, Mnr Groenewald - that we are embarking on an affirmative action programme precisely because of what your fathers did. [Interjections.] He cites sporadic cases of two white students allegedly discriminated against. Has he forgotten that it was his ancestors who promulgated the Bantu Education Act that was aimed at making blacks the hewers of wood and drawers of water? How can you forget that? [Interjections.]

Is he aware that the majority of those who are poor and unemployed are black youth? Is he aware that this phenomenon was not occasioned by an accident of history, but engineered by a racist regime? He belonged to that racist regime. [Interjections.] [Applause.]

Let me proudly tell you, my brother, that the ANC wants a nonracial, democratic and nonsexist South Africa. If you read the Constitution of the ANC - 2.1 of that Constitution - you will see that our main objective is to unite the people of this country, blacks and Africans in particular.

Mr P J GROENEWALD: United in affirmative action.

The MINISTER OF LABOUR: Affirmative action, my brother, we will continue with. We will affirm the blacks that you with your ancestors have tried to undermine.

Ons is nie domkoppe nie. Ons is slim. [Applous.] [We are not stupid. We are clever. [Applause.]]

This is our land. Umhlaba, ngowethu! Ilizwe, lelethu! Kufuneka sonke ke singcamle ubuncwane beli lizwe, nokuba uyathanda, nokuba akuthandi, Groenewald. Abantwana bakho baza kungcamla ilizwe elikhululekileyo ngenxa yombutho lo wesizwe i-ANC. Wena abantwana bakho ubasa esihogweni. [Kwaqhwatywa.] (Translation of isiXhosa paragraph follows.)

[The land is ours! The country is ours! We must all enjoy the niceties of this country, whether you like it or not, Groenewald. Your children are going to enjoy life in a free country because of the national organisation, the ANC. You are leading your children towards hell. [Applause.]]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! Yes, hon member.

Mr C AUCAMP: Hon Chairperson, I want to raise a point of order in connection … [Interjections.] The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! Order! Yes, hon member.

Mr C AUCAMP: Chairperson, is it in order for a Minister - if he has the opportunity in his reply - to answer questions members raised in their speeches? While I was speaking the Minister was answering me from across the floor, shouting yes'' and shoutingno’’, but he didn’t answer me when he had the opportunity in his speech. Is that in order? [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Hon member, I think you know very well that whoever comes to the speaker’s podium is quite free to choose what he or she wants to say and to neglect what he or she does not want to say. That is the choice of the person who is at the podium. The Chair has no ability in any way to ensure that something happens that will be to the satisfaction of all members.

THE MINISTER OF LABOUR: Bendicinga ukuba uza kundibona, Mhlalingaphambili. [I thought you were going to see me, Chairperson.] I was just going to tell him, the hon Aucamp, and Groenewald … ngumgubo wengxow’ enye. [They are birds of a feather.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order, hon Minister, you’ve had your say. Also, thank you. I think it has been a long evening, but Wfortunately we’ve now come to the end.

Debate concluded.

The House adjourned at 19:43.