TUESDAY, 27 MAY 2003 __

          PROCEEDINGS OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
                                ____

The Council met at 14:10.

The Deputy Chairperson took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayers or meditation.

ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS - see col 000.

                             NO MOTIONS

                           (Announcement)

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr M J Mahlangu): Order! Hon members, I’ve been informed that there won’t be any motions from members today.

                         APPROPRIATION BILL
                           (Policy debate)

Vote No 2 - Parliament

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Thank you, Deputy Chairperson. If you would allow me, I would like to begin by welcoming the Deputy President to the National Council of Provinces. It is indeed a great honour to have you here again. Deputy President, I am most pleased that you will be participating in our debate on the Budget Vote of Parliament. In fact, I know that all of us are looking forward to hearing your thoughts about Parliament’s interaction with the executive and the degree to which we are carrying through our work as we seek to build democracy in our country.

I think one of the features of our Parliament that sets us apart from many parliaments of the world, and certainly of our continent, is the fact that we are, as a parliament, in the fortunate position of having our role, powers and functions very clearly set out in our Constitution and therefore we enjoy very firm constitutional protection. This is not a feature of many of the parliaments that operate on our continent, and certainly some parliaments in other parts of the world.

Our Constitution further makes provision for our Parliament to be the primary democratic institution in South Africa. Our people have a voice in our Parliament; not only through their elected representatives, as in many other parliaments, but also through access to the deliberations of this Houses as well as through their right to speak and make representations in our committees. This public participation assists in our primary function as the true representatives of the people. We shape laws, we amend the Constitution, and we monitor, evaluate and encourage the executive to give attention to issues of concern to the people of our country.

In my view, one of the most important roles we are assigned is the role of national Budget Review - a process that is part of our work for at least three months of every year. Perhaps we should be doing more, but we do have that concentrated time wherein we review the Budget.

We have, as a parliament, begun to change the way we look at the national Budget, primarily through the creation of the Joint Budget Committee. Its formal establishment last year has raised a number of issues. Firstly, it is our hope that in time, this committee will be a seedling from which a professional budget analysis research unit will grow to provide information that enables us to have a thorough, independent assessment of our Budget figures as a parliament.

Secondly, it is our intention, as has already been agreed by the Joint Rules Committee, to make progress towards defining Parliament’s powers to amend the Budget so as to fulfil the demands of section 77(2) of the Constitution, which allows us to pass legislation determining the procedure to be followed to amend money Bills. This issue sparked much heated debate about five years ago, when an initial draft of a Money Bills Amendment Procedure Bill was found unsuitable in that it did not have the salient features which would carry through the spirit of section 77(2).

The reason for the delay in making further progress is that the redefinition of these amendment powers, obviously, raises important political questions about the role of Parliament in policy-making. The general feeling that’s begun to emerge is that amendment powers, such as we may define in the appropriate legislation, should not be unconditional. And it is important, through the Budget Committee, that we actually encourage more work in this area and ensure that we have legislation that supports both the role mandated to us as Parliament, as well as the policy-making function and jurisdiction given to the executive.

Thirdly, it is our view that perhaps we do not spend enough time on the Budget in committees, in order to make a meaningful parliamentary input. As committees, perhaps we should have more time to consider the Budget than is currently allowed in our procedures. It is vital for our Parliament to remain true to the very massive trust that our people have given to us. This trust requires us to ensure scrupulously at every point, that we engage in our work with certainty of purpose and clarity on approach and process.

We are now as a parliament, I think, in a far better position than ever before to understand and contribute to the Budget process. The quality of information available to Parliament has improved over the past few years through a number of laws, but also through the redesign of the Budget documentation and the provision of new information from the Treasury in documents, such as that would stipulate the Medium- Term Expenditure Framework, the Intergovernmental Fiscal Review, the section 32 expenditure and revenue reports in accordance with the Public Finance Management Act. All of these assist us to more adequately build our role in scrutinising the Budget.

But, I sometimes think that members of the public who observe our various Budget Vote debates each year must surely be asking questions about the link between our debates and the Budget that is mentioned in the Order Paper. The majority of our speeches tend to be a repetition of policy statements. Sometimes they are announcements of new policy ideas - at times untested new policy ideas - and sometimes they are a reflection on achievements. Perhaps we as Parliament are to blame for having failed to set down clear criteria of areas we wish to see addressed in Budget Vote debates.

In considering our own parliamentary budget, it seems to me, as a minimum, that the following questions should be part of the contribution in the debate: Firstly, what funds were voted in the financial year under review? Secondly, were there any priorities set out as part of the budget plan? Thirdly, were these priorities achieved? Fourthly, were there any unanticipated occurrences that caused expenditure that we hadn’t planned for? And fifth, are there policy changes that have emerged as a result of the experience in the preceding financial year?

I think our debate today offers us as the National Council of Provinces an opportunity to illustrate our perspective on the future shape of Budget Vote debates. Firstly, we take it as given that the core policy of Parliament remains intact and that in the course of the debate we will and can indicate new developments and challenges.

To begin with, we can note that in the financial year just past, Parliament was voted R480,2 million. This allocation was distributed across the various divisions of Parliament as follows: The bulk of the funds went to personnel costs - R117.5 million; administrative expenditure - R97,5 million, including inventories, equipment, professional services, etc. And then a large portion went to members’ support, as well as the direct charge that is related to members’ salaries and pension contributions.

When we assess our expenditure against this R480 million, we find that by the end of the past financial year, we exceeded our allocation by R22,5 million. The funds voted to Parliament, however, provided a great deal of support in a range of areas.

Firstly, there is committee work. We all know that committees are the engine room of Parliament. They are the primary vehicle for increasing public participation in the legislative process. At present in our Parliament we have 50 parliamentary committees: 27 in the National Assembly, 10 in the National Council of Provinces, 6 joint committees, and 7 ad hoc committees. A staff of 131 support the activities of committees and they work on a budget for committees of R12 million.

Last year, these committees debated and approved 75 Bills - 53 section 75 Bills, 10 Money Bills, 10 section 76 Bills and 2 constitutional amendments. The committees produced and adopted 376 reports - 176 reports on Bills, 75 on international agreements and 129 on oversight work by committees.

Our committees also amended many more Bills than ever before, and even redrafted six of the Bills presented to Parliament. In 2001, we only redrafted one Bill. So clearly, our Parliament is becoming better at making better laws. We think these are laudable achievements.

There was some disquiet recently, when it was discovered that last year’s committee budget of R12,6 million had been underspent by R7,4 million. In order to prevent this happening in the future, we have introduced performance budgeting that will allow committees to manage their own budgets - an overall budget that has been increased to R14 million in this new financial year. Performance budgeting is in our view an improvement on the traditional form of budgeting. It’s a system of budgeting that integrates strategic planning, financial planning and performance management. It is a system that enables us to allocate resources in terms of agreed goals. It is a system that enables us to focus on how we actually spend our funds.

Secondly, we have as an achievement our Parliament to the People Programme. In October 2002, the NCOP mounted its first Parliament to the People Programme in the Eastern Cape province. In March 2003, we hosted the second Parliament to the People Programme in the North West province. We believe that this programme, aimed at ensuring that we directly link our democracy to the people of our country, is a programme that gives value for money to the thousands of people that we have reached.

Thirdly, and lastly, our Parliament has continued its growing interaction with African and other parliaments. We had a successful meeting of African parliaments in July 2002, prior to the inaugural summit of the African Union, and this was one the items that led to that overexpenditure of R22 million. So it was, I think, defensible expenditure on our part. That meeting gave detailed attention to the challenges associated with establishing a Pan African Parliament and adopted a resolution that was submitted to the summit of African Union heads of state.

We also hosted visits from the President of Italy, the Emir of Qatar and the President of the Hellenic Republic. We sent an observer mission to Zimbabwe. Members and presiding officers held visits in the following countries: Botswana, Uganda, Namibia, Switzerland, China, Sudan, Japan and Mozambique. These were associated with the Commonwealth Parliamentary Association and Inter-parliamentary Union, as well as official NCOP visits.

Unfortunately, we have been unable to glean further activity on the part of our Parliament from the report on the year from the Secretary of the institution, given that that report is not yet ready for our consideration. Sadly, unlike reports from the executive, which have been arriving hard and fast in the House, since the beginning of the March, we as Parliament have failed in this particular regard, and I think this is something the Joint Rules Committee must give attention to.

As we report on these international links and programmes, I think it is important that we refer briefly to the support that our Parliament has received from international donors. In particular, I refer here to the European Union. All of us are familiar with the EU Support Programme. The programme has involved the sum of R115 million over a period of six years. It began in 1996 and has come to an end this May, 2003.

The aim of the programme was to enhance good governance and stable democracy by strengthening the role of the national and provincial legislatures in fulfilling their constitutional obligations. There were five key result areas: the improvement of parliamentary infrastructure and services; the improvement of MPs’ and MPLs’ parliamentary skills; improvement in institutional arrangements; improvement in providing programmes of public participation; and improvement in the co-operation across legislatures.

I am pleased to be able to say to our House that Parliament and the European Union have begun discussions and processes that should lead to a new parliamentary support programme, supported by the EU for all the legislatures in our country. We are also pleased to be able to report that our Parliament and the African Capacity Building Foundation, which is based in Harare, Zimbabwe, have entered into a support programme discussion that will strengthen the ability of our members of Parliament to perform their constitutional functions. The programme, once the funding has been realised, will help build better research capacity, better oversight mechanisms, strengthen committee support, provide training for new MPs in the next Parliament, and help us to build capacity for the parliamentary dimension of the African Union.

I must hasten to add that the fact that the Capacity Building Foundation is based in Harare, does not mean that it is the foundation of the government of Zimbabwe. It is an internationally funded foundation which has its headquarters in Harare.

There are, as well, positive developments in activities planned for the new financial year, 2003-04, for which our Parliament’s budget has increased to a substantial R627 million. We plan to strengthen committee support and ensure that our committees carry out their work in terms of clear criteria. We have agreed to focus on the following: Increased public participation, efforts to strengthen the understanding and participation in democracy in our country, and efforts to strengthen the institutional mechanisms for enhancing the ability of members to process legislations from a fully informed and independent or objective perspective.

All members would be aware that at the moment, when we consider legislation, we rely on advice from the department that is bringing legislation to Parliament. We use the legal advisers of the executive, and I must say that they’ve supported our committees’ work very well. But it is important that we build the institutional capacity to carry out this work, so that we do play the full role our Constitution anticipates.

We also plan to enhance the use of technology in Parliament, and especially in the NCOP, as an important part of ensuring full provincial participation in national matters. I am sure, hon Tsenoli, you will be worried to hear that we may reduce your trips to Cape Town, because we will have video conferencing, which will allow you to speak from the Free State to us here in Parliament in Cape Town.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr M J Mahlangu): Order! Chairperson, could you round off, please.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Thank you very much, Deputy Chairperson. I have so little opportunity to speak in this House … [Laughter.] … Now I am trying to cover all areas.

I think there is a range of areas of improvement and hon members, in their contributions, certainly will touch on them. However, it is important to say, having the Deputy President here as the Leader of Government Business, that we believe our programme planning would be greatly enhanced if the executive could provide Parliament with an accurate map of legislation for each year.

We are also concerned, hon Leader of Government Business, that an old and inefficient practice, which we had changed, has now been revived, and that is the practice of introducing section 76 Bills in the other House. Last year, only two of the 10 section 76 Bills were introduced in this House. Clearly, we would like to see some change there and I have noticed, with legislation this year, that this new practice is continuing. We, of course, accept that it is a prerogative of the executive to decide which House to favour with introduction. But before legislation is placed before one House, delays in processing Bills will occur.

In conclusion, I think that it is important to say that the outline of our progress in the past financial year shows clearly that our democracy has laid a firm foundation for a sustainable democracy. Now that the basic blocks are in place, the task of Parliament is to ensure the selection of appropriate support material to ensure that we do not falter. The hard work of our members last year sends a strong signal of our intention to make the National Council of Provinces a House of the people, fully responsive to the mandate of supporting South Africans in creating a better life for all Africans. Thank you very much, Deputy Chairperson. [Applause.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Order! It is both you and I who are not given enough opportunity to speak in this House. But, congratulations and thank you very much.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Deputy Chairperson of the National Council of Provinces, hon members, delegates and colleagues, I’m pleased to have this opportunity, once again, to interact with this august House on the occasion of the parliamentary Budget Vote for 2003-04.

I would like to acknowledge the concerns raised by the Chairperson of the NCOP with regard to the section 76 Bills. I will try to look into that issue. I must also agree with the Chairperson that the House should do more with regard to considering how the Budget is utilised. Doing so, I think, as Parliament, we’ll be doing our job of oversight very well. I think there must be very clear oversight with regard to how the finances are used, because at times there are clear priorities. At times the priorities are not necessarily followed. It’s your duty as public representatives to indicate how we should utilise the funds, and even to detect whether there are weaknesses or no weaknesses at all in this regard.

I have said before, and I hope you will not mind me repeating it, that no other institution in the country can showcase our beautiful and rich diversity as a nation quite as succinctly as the NCOP. I’m sure that the authors of our Constitution would be very pleased to see how their noble intentions are being realised.

Having given life to the principle of co-operative governance a powerful voice to the masses of our people in the various provinces and local areas, we are, through the efforts of the NCOP, building and consolidating a true participatory democracy. This House is the point of convergence of these spheres of government, all three of them, which quite uniquely positions it as the bedrock of integrated and co-operative governance. It is the forum where issues of critical importance to the provinces and local government are debated on the national platform.

I, however, want to argue that maybe the NCOP is underutilised by the provinces and especially by organised local government. I am saying this in the light of some crucial matters that are not placed effectively on the national agenda by the provinces or Salga. For instance, the ongoing challenges faced with respect to the cross-border municipalities have been on the table for a long time. However, municipalities have not shared their insight, experience and knowledge adequately to allow us to reach a practical and permanent solution in this regard. I do not think we should allow this to continue, because there are problems.

Equally importantly, I think we need to point out the challenges arising from our integrated approach in terms of national and provincial competencies. We note, for example, the oversight work done by the NCOP with regard to the payment of social grants, with the Department of Home Affairs - the national department - issuing the identity documents needed for social grant applications and the provinces administering the actual grants.

Even in this regard, we need to engage municipalities that very often are responsible for the venues where these grants are paid out. They need to take steps to ensure that our elders and people with disabilities are treated with dignity as they receive the grants.

I would also like to invite you to build on the input you are already making in terms of building our national democracy. It is true that your location, character and constitutional responsibilities oblige you to further develop sound intergovernmental relations as a common objective. As we all know, it is the responsibility of the national Government to provide support to the provinces. Similarly, it is the duty of provinces to provide assistance to municipalities.

In this regard, the NCOP is a necessary intermediary that represents all provinces and organised local government in a collective manner. The debates in this House are, after all, informed by actual experiences on the ground. They afford us an opportunity to achieve national consensus on our collective aim of pushing back the frontiers of poverty and remind us constantly of the peculiarities of the provinces within the broader scope of the national picture. In this manner, the NCOP distinguishes itself from the National Assembly in a very particular way. While the National Assembly is able to visit one or two provinces at a time, the NCOP is able to send out nine delegations to all nine provinces simultaneously.

In this regard, I would like to take this opportunity to congratulate you on your recent meetings in the North West and Eastern Cape provinces. By adopting this new style, you are really bringing Parliament closer to the people. Such interaction allows an invaluable immediate assessment and evaluation of policy implementation countrywide.

The NCOP is therefore in a position to detect problems facing local governments, particularly with regard to their finances. You are, therefore, in a position to assist at an earlier stage, before the remedial intervention envisaged in the Constitution becomes necessary.

As I said earlier, there remains a number of critical challenges as we complete the last year of the first decade of democracy. The most pressing is the transformation of Parliament. The finalisation of the mission and vision of Parliament is therefore critical. We need to begin to define the proceedings and procedures of Parliament less along the Western style and become more African in character. In this regard, the design of this Chamber, away from the two-party arrangement, is an important milestone and contribution.

We agree that some of the challenges we face include, among others, continuing to ensure that the distinctive nature of the NCOP is utilised and recognised. We do not want to fall into the trap of seeing it as merely a mirror of the National Assembly. Given the size of the NCOP, we need to ensure that the 54 permanent delegates are able to perform their functions effectively. Similarly, we need to strive for the effective utilisation of the special delegates and the provincial legislatures they represent.

We also need to work actively to ensure that the voice of local government becomes more effective and influential as we strengthen the principle of integrated governance. In addition, we still need to do the following: ensure that section 76 Bills are thoroughly dealt with to enrich the national legislative process with the views and concerns of provinces and local areas, and conscientise provinces and municipalities to look beyond local boundaries and to reach deep into Africa as we work to regenerate the continent and promote Nepad and the African Union.

It is important that we do all the above as we assess the first 10 years of democratic governance, while at the same time projecting the objectives, challenges and prospects of the next 10 years.

This House is a perfect platform to celebrate our diversity, especially in the area of language development. It not only represents the different tongues our people speak, but also the uniqueness of our provinces and people. It should therefore serve as a constant reminder to all of us to play a role in promoting our indigenous languages in both Houses of Parliament, to set an example, especially in the light of the upcoming national language conference.

In conclusion, let me reiterate that I have full confidence in the ability and capacity of this House to translate the ideals of a better life for all into a daily reality for our people. My confidence stems from the manifold contributions you have already made in ensuring the progress we have achieved so far. Deputy Chairperson, let me wish this House all the best in the business of the current session. I thank you. [Applause.]

Mr A E VAN NIEKERK: Chairperson, it is an honour to follow on the Deputy President, and I want to thank him for the insight he has into the role that this august House does play.

On 6 June last year, when we debated this vote, I was in the Chair, presiding over this debate. But, obviously I was too strict and posed too much competition for the presiding officers, and that is the reason they did not ask me again. … [Laughter.] … But, as I sat there, I can remember, it was very difficult to keep a straight face when members spoke about things they did not know much about. For instance, when the Chief Whip referred to a ``boerbok’’, some members looked at me and thought that I was the boer in the chair he was referring to. … [Laughter.] … After my experience, I have much more respect for presiding officers handling debates, always with a straight face.

Op ‘n baie ernstiger noot: die rol van die NRVP is werklik ‘n grondwetlike verbintenis tot samewerkende regering. Dit beteken dat nasionale beleid sensitief moet wees vir provinsiale en plaaslike regerings se behoeftes en besorgdhede. Hierdie behoeftes en besorgdhede mag nie sommer net geïgnoreer word nie, en daar is talle probleme wat ons nie mag ignoreer nie. Dit beteken egter ook dat munisipaliteite, maar veral provinsies, nie in afsondering moet optree nie, want ons is daar.

Hierdie Raad is in wese ontwerp, en is al hoe meer besig om te ontwikkel, om in bogenoemde behoefte te voldoen. Dit is duidelik in die Grondwet dat ons hoofdoel juis is om deel te neem in die nasionale proses van wette maak, en om ‘n nasionale platform daar te stel vir openbare debat oor provinsiale sake. Die meeste provinsies doen deeglike werk wanneer daar beraadslaag word oor artikel 76 - wetgewing, maar die uitvoerende gesag, soos reeds genoem deur die agb Voorsitter, besef egter nie die waarde daarvan om hierdie wetgewing eerste in die NRVP in te dien nie.

Ek is dankbaar dat die Adjunkpresident daarop gewys het dat hy dié gedagte ook met sy kollegas sal bespreek. Ek hoop hy hoor dit nog ‘n paar keer vandag sodat hy die dringendheid en die belangrikheid wesenlik besef.

Ek wil spesiale dank betuig aan die Voorsitter van hierdie Raad vir haar passie om hierdie Raad te laat slaag as ‘n funksionele bate van die nuwe demokrasie, en vir die leiding om die begroting nuut en vars aan te spreek. Ek het egter ‘n dringende versoek, en dit is dat die implementering van besluite in die Gesamentlike Reëlskomitee met ‘n fermer hand buite die komitee moet plaasvind. Maar, in dieselfde asem wil ek haar versoek om met ‘n minder ferm hand die programmeringsweep, Mr Mohammed Sulliman, te hanteer.

Sy werk verg ‘n spesiale soort mens, wat hy dan ook is. Ons bedank hom daarvoor, en ook die Hoofsweep, mnr Surtee, wat werklik, behalwe organisatoriese leiding, ook politieke rigting aan hierdie instansie, die NRVP gee. Daar is egter nog provinsiale swepe wat nie daarin slaag om hul lede as ‘n span saam te snoer nie, en dit is ‘n uitdaging.

Die werking van die gekose komitees het ‘n drastiese verbetering in kwantitatiewe en kwalitatiewe aktiwiteite getoon, en deelname aan onderhandeling oor wetgewing word deurgaans op ‘n deursigtige wyse aangemoedig, en ons dank ook die nuwe voorsitter van die voorsitters daarvoor.

Die deelname uit die provinsies is puik, maar daar is tog enkele gevalle waar lede uit provinsies se bydraes in die komitees en/of sittings nie die koste van hulle hierheen reis regverdig nie, en dieselfde is seker waar van ‘n paar van ons lede wanneer ons na die provinsies toe gaan. Daarom sal die moderne kommunikasietegnologie waarna die voorsitter verwys het, verwelkom word.

Met die aanloop na die verkiesing volgende jaar sal die druk op komitees en personeel toeneem, en hulle moet daarop voorbereid wees en baie goed beplan. Dit is tog jammer dat dit altyd blyk dat die begroting nie voldoende is nie, en dit terwyl daar nou onderbestee word. Daarom sal die nuwe bestuur van die begroting ook verwelkom word sodat daar altyd genoeg geld is om te bestee op die ontwikkeling van die lede en op die blootstelling wat die lede moet kry.

Die neem van die NRVP na die mense van die Oos-Kaap en die Noordwes provinsie is ‘n goeie en noodsaaklike ontwikkeling, maar nog meer deelname van die publiek is nodig, en op die twee ondervindings kan daar vir gebou word.

Die belofte dat gaste en die media op die galerye van beide Huise toegang tot gehoorstukke sou hê, om te kan inskakel by die tolkdiens, het nog nie plaasgevind nie. Ek is bly dat die Adjunkpresident ook verwys het na die taalbelangrikheid in die Huise, want dit is bloot net ongeskik om gaste in jou huis te hê, en dan praat jy tale wat hulle nie kan verstaan nie. Dit bevorder net een ding, en dit is dat almal na Engels gryp, en die persepsie word geskep dat dit die enigste taal is wat die moeite werd is.

Ek is egter seker dat die parlementêre taalbeleid, wat nou ontwikkel word, ook binnekort hierdie ongemaklikheid gaan aanspreek. Die besluit is nou geneem dat daar ‘n standbeeld van president Mandela op die gronde van die Parlement gaan wees, maar terselfdertyd is daar nou ook genoeg genesing oor die ag/nege jaar dat die beleid oor kunswerke in die parlement ten uitvoer gebring kan word, want hierdie leë, kaal, wit mure is regtig nie ‘n vertoonvenster vir die kleurryke, dinamiese Suid-Afrika wat ons is nie. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)

[On a more serious note: The role of the NCOP is really a constitutional commitment to co-operative governance. This means that national policy should be sensitive to the needs and concerns of provincial and local governments. These needs and concerns should not summarily be ignored, and there are many problems which we may not ignore. This, however, also means that municipalities, but the especially the provinces, should not act in isolation because we are there.

This Council has been developed in essence, and is still busy developing, in order to comply with the above-mentioned needs. It is clear in the Constitution that our main aim is precisely to participate in the national process of law making, and to put in place a national platform for public debate regarding provincial matters. Most of the provinces do thorough work when they deliberate on section 76 legislation, but the executive authority, as already mentioned by the hon Chairperson, however, does not realise the value of submitting this legislation first to the NCOP.

I am thankful that the Deputy President indicated that he would discuss this idea with his colleagues as well. I hope that he will hear it a few more times today so that he can essentially realise the importance and the urgency thereof.

I would like to express a special thanks to the Chairperson of this Council for her passion to make this Council succeed as a functional asset of the new democracy, and for the leadership to address this Budget in a new and fresh manner. I do, however, have an urgent request and that is that the implementation of decisions taken in the Joint Rules Committee should take place with a firmer hand outside the committee. However, in the same breath I would like to request her to deal with the Programming Whip, Mr Mohammed Sulliman, with a less firm hand.

His work requires a special type of person, which he also is. We thank him for that and also the Chief Whip Mr Surtee, who really, in addition to organisational leadership, also gives political leadership to this institution, the NCOP. There are, however, still provincial whips who do not succeed in co-ordinating their members as a team and that remains a challenge.

The work of the select committees have shown a drastic improvement in quantitative and qualitative activities, and participation in negotiation regarding legislation is continuously encouraged in a transparent manner, and we thank the new Chairperson of Chairpersons for that.

The participation from the provinces is excellent, but there are still singular instances where the contributions of members from the provinces in the committees and/or sittings, do not justify the costs for travelling here, and the same is surely true for a few of our members when we go to the provinces. For that reason the modern communication technology which the Chairperson referred to will be welcomed.

With the run-up to the elections next year the pressure on the committees and personnel will increase and they should be well prepared for that and plan very well. It is surely a pity that it always seems as if the budget is not enough, when in actual fact we have now experienced under-spending. For that reason the new management of the budget would also be welcomed so that we always have enough money to spend on the development of members and on the exposure that members should receive.

The taking of the NCOP to the people of the Eastern Cape and the North West province is a good and necessary development, but more participation from the public is necessary, and we can surely build on these two experiences.

The promise that guests and the media in the galleries of both Houses would have access to earpieces to enable them to tune in to the interpreting service has still not taken place. I am pleased that the Deputy President also referred to the importance of language in the Houses, because it is simply rude to have guests in your house and then you speak languages which they do not understand. This promotes only one thing, and that is that everybody reverts to English and the perception is being created that this is the only language which is worth our while.

I am, however, sure that the parliamentary language policy, which is now being developed, will shortly also address this unease. The decision has now been taken that we will have a statue of President Mandela on the parliamentary grounds, but at the same time we have had enough healing over the past eight/nine years so that the policy regarding artwork at Parliament can be executed, because these empty, bare, white walls are really no display window of the colourful, dynamic South Africa that we are.]

In conclusion, most of us have the commitment and the talent to make this institution work even better, for not only the members, but also for the people in the provinces whom we represent. We have the commitment and the talent, through the grace of God, to make this place work and to make South Africa work so as to better the lives of all those who live in this beautiful country, South Africa, that we inherited from our forefathers. [Applause.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr M J Mahlangu): Chairperson of Committees, hon members, let me begin by saying that when I was appointed Deputy Chairperson of the National Council of Provinces, I was humbled by the confidence bestowed upon me by the members of the Council, and I, therefore, took up the honour with much enthusiasm. To me this was the next step, having been Chairperson of Committees before. I realised that the Council faced challenges in terms of its constitutional mandate.

I am informed by the students of parliamentary law that the NCOP is one of a very small number of upper Houses that have their mandate clearly spelled out. The NCOP is an upper House because its members have to be elected and appointed to it by the first House. Therefore, you are important, you belong to an upper House.

Hon MEMBERS: Hear! Hear!

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr M J Mahlangu): It is, in fact, the glue that sticks South Africans together. The three spheres of Government meet in the NCOP - I want to make this point very clear. The judiciary, the legislatures and the executive, all have business to do in the NCOP. We all come here, including even the local government sphere, to decide on and to talk about the issues that effect us as a country.

Last, but most importantly, all the interests of South Africans can be voiced in the NCOP through the provincial delegations and in all the languages best known to the provinces. The Deputy President has alluded to that - I am very glad. Because of this, the NCOP has to conduct its business in a manner that is sensitive to this constitutional obligation. To this end, the National Council of Provinces has embarked on a series of reforms to ensure that it delivers on its mandate.

The Council has identified three areas needing special attention in the process of the transformation of delivery on its constitutional mandate, namely: the procedure, the oversight and the management of the Council. I will touch on this briefly, because I don’t have much time.

In terms of the management of the Council, the Council has embarked on a process of strategic and business planning. The process entails planning at a political level by identifying the strategic objectives of the Council. These are, therefore, assigned to the various business units of business planning. All these, in turn, are translated into the budget of the Council.

Any institution without a strategic plan cannot function properly. And I am very glad to say that the NCOP has embarked on that. All other units embodied in the National Council of Provinces can then also derive their mandates and their working plans from the strategic plan and, therefore, measure their performance against the targets that they have set themselves and so achieve their goals.

In terms of the oversight function, the Council has now resolved to conduct proactive oversight. This entails determining Acts which have provincial interest and investigating problems of implementation in the various provinces. In effect, this will lead to co-operation among legislatures.

At this point, it is important to have a clear understanding of the areas of competence of legislatures and of the NCOP in order to avoid any misunderstanding, and to foster co-operation between the legislatures and the National Council of Provinces.

It is, however, very important that there be strong co-operation between the legislatures and the Council on these visits and the findings of the programmes, to enable the Council to deliver its constitutional mandate. I will come back to the procedures in relation to these issues.

There was a workshop in 2001 and during this exercise the Chairperson gave good leadership and guidance on the crystallisation and distillation of the concept of constitutional provision. We tend to avoid these things. And I need to come back to that point because I want to emphasise it.

A reasonable start was made by the Council in the year 2002 by focusing on the provincial interest and always advancing the provincial perspective during the debates generally, and during the processing of legislation in particular. This area is given priority as it is central to the existence of the Council. This approach is not only expected of members of the Council, but also of the executive. When the executive is addressing the Council on any matter, it is expected to focus on the provincial impact of their legislation on the policy they are addressing the Council on. That is crucial to me, because we are a special House. We represent certain interests of the provinces. Therefore, we have to highlight and indicate that in the debates that we have in the Council. Otherwise, we are not saying anything in terms of provincial interests.

Members are urged to internalise the concept of provincial perspective in their debating, the questions asked and the motions moved in the House and in the scrutinisation of the Bills. The importance of this cannot be overemphasised, especially given the recent experience with regard to the Constitutional Amendment Act of 2002.

Let me quickly deal with the implications of the three things that I have mentioned. Regarding the management of the Council, the skills of chairpersons of committees on general principles of management and basic parliamentary finance management are of paramount importance in ensuring delivery. The Chairperson of Committees is seized with this task.

The strategic plan of the Council will provide measures for the evaluation of the performance of the Council in that it is going to detail the task that the Council has set itself during the year 2004-05, and the resources necessary for that. This will inform the business plans of the committees and administration, and determine the budget of the Council. This is crucial. It goes back to what I said at the beginning, namely that you cannot do anything without a strategic plan. Therefore as a business unit we’ll have to function within this broad strategic plan of the NCOP.

In terms of procedures, provincial delegations are in Cape Town, and yet they are expected to advance the provincial interest at national level. This can only be done with the assistance and support of the various legislatures. This support entails supplying the delegation with reports of incidents taking place in the provinces worthy of being in a motion or in order for members to raise the profile of events taking place in the provinces.

In turn, the attention of national Government will be drawn to events in the provinces and it will be prompted to act where necessary. It is our job to bring to the attention of the national Government the issues raised in the provinces, because we want the national Government to act on these issues and not just be aware of them and do nothing about them.

During debates on legislation legislatures should occasionally furnish delegates with information as to how the particular legislation would impact on the provinces. Provincial legislatures should also support their delegations by providing them with information to then ask questions that would assist in drawing the attention of the national Parliament and the executive to particular provincial issues. In this way the legislatures will assist the delegations in discharging the NCOP’s constitutional mandate. The last issue on oversight which I want to touch on is the following. Oversight is going to be conducted from …

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Deputy Chairperson, would you please round off, please, as your time has expired.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr M J Mahlangu): In rounding off, let met say that communication with the provinces - particularly in terms of our programme relating to provincial visits - is crucial, because we have to co-ordinate our programmes as we go down to the provinces; not to impose ourselves on them, but to work together with them. Thank you, Chairperson. [Applause.]

Mr K D S DURR: Chairperson, in this new Parliament we not only make laws, but we create or adopt good or bad conventions. We are in the business of foundational politics at this time in our history. We have made great progress. We are the custodians not only of the law, but we are also custodians of the image of Parliament. The dignity of Parliament and the way we use our buildings and respect them too is also important. Winston Churchill said, and I quote: ``First we shape our buildings, then they shape us.’’

I have a huge problem with the way we are allowing our Parliament to be cheapened by inappropriate exhibitions. We need, somehow, to create a venue where departmental or NGO exhibitions can take place, without making the lobbies and corridors of power look shabby and littered with pamphlets and trinkets everybody takes, but few read or use.

The departments also need talking to. I don’t know about my colleagues, but every morning I am bombed with expensive glossy reports and magazines, costing a fortune, most of which we consign to the waste paper basket. The departments need to filter what they put out and to use lower cost means of production and of informing us; perhaps even electronic means. I feel sorry for the trees that are cut down, and that have grown in vain.

We live in a poor country. We can’t afford such conspicuous waste. A standard format, such as one the Auditor-General uses, for example, would be easier to follow and better, in our oversight function.

Does every department that reports to Parliament each year need to invite all the members to lunch or dinner to celebrate every time they read their budgets? We don’t need to go to night clubs or gambling casinos or mannequin parades to celebrate anything which is our duty to do, and for which we are paid very well. There is a time for celebration - of course there is - but this constant lunch every time we have something is just not on. We are all overweight, most of us, and most of us have little time … [Interjections.] … It is just a conspicuous waste. We are poor country. The cost is born by the taxpayers. It is a corrupting and a corrosive process.

Cocktail parties, lunches, dinners and fashion parades are all good and well, in private time with our own money, but not for us who are paid to do our jobs already. Please let us think about it. We do not want to develop false illusions of grandeur.

Finally, when the President attends a debate of the NCOP, and I have huge respect for the President, we have the honour of receiving him here. Is it really necessary for him to arrive in a cavalcade of cars from Tuynhuys, only 200 meters away, and then to advance up a long red carpet? It is simply too much and smacks of Lilliputian thinking … [Interjections.] … He can stroll over. He is very welcome here.

I’ve learnt in my life, and I’ve had the privilege of working in over 70 countries, that the richer and more successful the country, the simpler the offices and the arrangements … [Time expired.]

Mr K D S DURR: [Inaudible.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr M J Mahlangu): Order! Order! Order, Mr Durr. Your speaking time has expired. Order! Order!, Mr Durr.

Mr T S SETONA: Deputy Chair, can the hon member take a question?

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr M J Mahlangu): Are you willing to take a question, Mr Durr?

Mr K D S DURR: When I have completed my speech.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr M J Mahlangu): Complete your speech. Your time has expired.

Mr K D S DURR: It is vital that we keep our lives simple and Spartan - I move.

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Chairperson, at times it becomes disturbing to hear the hon member, whom I thought was very mature, being a church leader, speaking on behalf of churches in this Parliament, having been a former member of the very Parliament that did some of the bad things that it did. For him to stand up here and say the things he is saying today is unfortunate. Hon Durr is just out of order. You might as well say nothing, Mr Durr, rather than say what you are saying.

Thank you very much for the opportunity. May I take it not to respond to Mr Durr again. Maybe we’ll meet in a committee meeting somewhere, where we will resolve our problems with him.

Six years ago the National Council of Provinces was established. The drafters of the Constitution, from whom the noble idea of establishing the second House of Parliament which became known as the National Council of Provinces emanated, saw the need for a House which would enhance and promote principles of participatory democracy and co-operative governance.

Mindful of the practices of the undemocratic apartheid era, the drafters took a decision that never again should the state be unaccountable for its actions and undemocratic in its decision-making. The National Council of Provinces, being a forum that incorporates the three spheres of government, was perceived as an appropriate House that would advance these noble ideas.

Those who were members at the time of establishing this House saw the role of the National Council of Provinces as that of unifying the South African nation. We saw this House as the custodian of co-operative governance. The question is: Have we been able to live up to these expectations?

On this occasion of the debate on Budget Vote No 2 - Parliament, allow me to highlight the achievements during the past six years of existence of and challenges faced by this august House.

I can proudly say that within a short space of time the National Council of Provinces has been able to achieve a lot. To a large extent we have managed to live up to the expectations of the drafters. We’ve been able to adhere to the provisions of the Constitution. There are a few instances in which the National Council of Provinces was subpoenaed by the Constitutional Court for contravening sections of the Constitution, but we were able to defend our position as this House.

In passing legislation we have followed the provincial cycle to the letter. We brief our provinces on section 76 Bills and other Bills that have implications for our provinces. Public hearings are conducted in provinces. In this way we have been able to ensure and promote participatory democracy by allowing citizens in our provinces to participate on matters that affect their daily lives. We have been able to bring decision-making closer to our people.

Communication with our provinces is at an acceptable level. To this end, we are able to communicate with our provinces through the NCOP Online and the liaison office staff. In this regard, we wish to thank presiding officers and the provincial Whips for their leadership.

Select committees in the National Council of Provinces work in earnest. For effective operation of our select committees system we have clustered our committees, in line with Cabinet clustering. Our select committees have also conducted oversight functions. Through their work, we have been able to intervene in certain local municipalities as required by section 139 of our Constitution.

From last year this House undertook two projects called ``Bringing Parliament to the People’’. We went to the Eastern Cape. Through public hearings, we interacted with ordinary people from the villages of Umtata in the Eastern Cape. We also went to the North West in Taung, where we interacted with the people of the areas as well as people from Mafikeng.

This House listened and heard the plight of people. Through this project, there has been significant improvement with regard to problems identified by the Department of Home Affairs, and we need to congratulate our select committees for this excellent work.

I now come to the challenges. Achievements by this House are not without challenges. As members of this House, our work should be outcomes-based. In pursuing our mandate, we need to have a plan that will give direction to both the political component and the administration of the Council. We need to develop strategic objectives to guide us in our daily activities. Such strategic objectives will help us develop measurable results.

In this regard, I’m reminded of a story that was told by our Deputy Chairperson about a member of Parliament who, when asked, ``What is it that you are doing in Parliament?’’, was unable to answer because we actually do almost everything. And those members didn’t know how much value they are adding to the work of this Parliament.

To this end the National Council of Provinces has had its mission and vision workshop. I’m convinced that through the collective leadership of presiding officers and Whips, by next year we will have a measurable plan.

Our select committees have recently had a meaningful strategy planning session to assist committees to conceptualise their strategic direction. After the 2004 elections, which I am sure and convinced the ANC is going to win with a two-thirds majority, these objectives will help us to measure what we have achieved as this august House of Parliament.

Furthermore, consideration should be given to the flexibility of our provincial cycles. It is my view that provincial cycles are too rigid, making it difficult for provinces to have maximum participation.

As members of this House, we are all aware that the National Council of Provinces represents the provinces to ensure that provincial interests are taken into account in the national sphere of Government. But to this end, our deliberations do not quite honestly reflect some of the issues that we raise in this House. An example is that of our questions to the executive, which in my view do not reflect provincial issues, and we need to address that.

The House, through the work of Committees, should develop mechanisms to ensure that provincial interests are identified and weighed when national matters are discussed. Through oversight and legislation, our work in the NCOP should promote provincial progress. At times as this House we legislate section 75 Bills with provincial implications without reflecting on provincial interests. In addressing this problem our committees must develop a co-operative relationship with provincial committees.

This will, in certain ways, develop provincial insight on national matters and national understanding of provincial progress. Through this co- operative relationship with other committees in the provinces, select committees will ensure that provincial interests are taken into account.

In conclusion, challenges should be expected by any fledgling organisation, such as this one. I’m convinced that this Budget Vote will help us deal with these challenges. The ANC supports this Budget Vote. Thank you. [Applause.] Ms C-S BOTHA: Baie dankie, Voorsitter. In hierdie debat laas jaar het die Voorsitster haar uitgespreek oor die feit dat ons 89% van die tyd in die Nasionale Raad van Provinsies - en dit geld net soveel vir die Nasionale Vergadering - Engels gepraat het. Sy het dit so gestel: ``As ons mense ons kan hoor praat in al die tale van die land sal hulle kan sê: `Ek is teenwoordig in die Huis’.’’ Hierdie sentiment vind diep weerklank by diegene wat besef dat diversiteit ‘n bate is vir demokrasie en nie bloot ‘n kostefaktor nie.

Ten spyte van haar versugting het ons ‘n jaar later nog nie ‘n taalbeleid vir die Parlement nie. Pogings is wel aangewend om so iets op die tafel te plaas, maar met elke vergadering word ‘n nuwe rede aangevoer waarom daar nie tot aksie oorgegaan word nie. Op die oomblik wag ons weer ‘n keer vir ‘n koste-impakstudie. Dit is vanselfsprekend nodig, maar ons kon reeds begin het om sekere aspekte van die beleid te prioritiseer en die detail daarvan uit te werk terwyl ons besig is met ‘n langtermyn - omvattende studie.

Dit sal ‘n jammerte wees as die openingsrede van die volgende Parlement nie in al elf tale gelyktydig uitgesaai kan word en deur die mense op die galery so gehoor kan word nie. Ek is seker die nuwe parlementslede sal wonder hoekom ons dit nie tot stand kon bring nie. Daarby moet ek voeg dat hierdie Huis die leidende rol speel in die toenemende praktyk van veeltaligheid en dat dit ‘n interessante faset van ons identiteit is.

Dit weerspieël ook die verskille in die provinsies waar ons vandaan kom. Dit sluit aan by die deurlopende riglyn vir die Parlement om deursigtig en gevoelig te wees vir die behoeftes van die kieserskorps en om ingestel te wees op dienslewering.

Ek wil nie soseer kommentaar lewer oor die gebrek al dan nie aan fondse vir die komitees nie. Wat my op hierdie stadium meer bekommer, is die aard van die werk wat die gekose komitees toeval. Ek glo dat hierdie komitees - en dis nie deur die bank die geval nie - nie met dieselfde erns bejeën word as dié van die Nasionale Vergadering nie. Dikwels word wetgewing met onwelvoeglike spoed deur ons komitees gevoer. Verhore oor wetgewing vind grootliks in die Nasionale Raad plaas. Kyk maar na die twee wetsontwerpe huidiglik voor die Parlement: die MFM-Wetsontwerp en die wetsontwerp oor eiendomsbelasting. Altwee hierdie wetsontwerpe sal besondere impak op plaaslike regering hê, maar die detail werk daaraan word in die Nasionale Vergadering gedoen. Die parlementêre bestuur moet deurlopend na die werking van ons komitees kyk om te sien of ons nie beter skakeling kan kry nie - nie net op parlementêre vlak nie, maar ook in die provinsies.

Een van die uitdagings vir die volgende fase van die parlementêre proses sal wees om die publiek se deelname daaraan te bevorder. Dit is uiters belangrik, maar nie net vir die publiek nie. Parlementariërs baat almal by hierdie opvoedingsprosesse en blootstelling. Daarom dat ek ook waardering het vir die fondse wat begroot word om ons die geleenthede te gee om aan internasionale programme deel te neem - al het ek self nog nie hierdie geleentheid gehad nie. Die begrotingspos onder bespreking het sedert 1999 tot en met 2003 met ‘n gemiddeld van 15,3% gegroei. Hierdie groei is nie eweredig te bespeur in al die programme van die pos nie. As ons kyk na die algemene tendens in uitgawes vanaf 1999 tot 2006, sal ons sien dat die toekennings aan al die poste gemiddeld meer as verdubbel het oor hierdie tydperk - behalwe parlementêre salarisse.

Wat van pertinente belang is, is die geld vir ondersteuningsdienste aan politieke verteenwoordigers, wat ressorteer onder program 2. Die 14,1%- toename oor die afgelope vier jaar het egter grootliks gegaan aan toenemende reiskoste en nie aan toenemende diens nie.

‘n Interessante vraag ontstaan ook in verband met program 3, waaronder finansiële ondersteuning aan politieke partye asook kiesafdeling- en leiersondersteuning vir politieke partye ressorteer. Gaan hierdie fondse nou verder verdeel word onder die ses nuwe politieke partye wat nou tot stand gekom het as gevolg van die oorloopwetgewing? Of gaan nuwe fondse vir hulle gevind word?

Program 3 het met 13,6% gegroei, maar die DA voer aan dat hierdie dienste verreweg nie genoeg is om parlementslede toe te laat om hulle kiesafdelings na behore te dien nie, en hoegenaamd nie genoeg is om in die administratiewe behoeftes van parlementariërs te voorsien nie. Ons is dikwels net hoogs besoldigde administratiewe beamptes.

Ten laaste wil ek graag erkenning gee aan die gehalte leierskap wat ons in hierdie Huis ervaar. Ons is egter van mening dat hierdie instansie baie beter erkenning deur die publiek sou geniet vir die eiesoortige werk wat hier gedoen word as ons nie in die onbenydenswaardige posisie was dat ons bykans onherkenbaar in hierdie Raad opereer nie. Wat is ons? Lede van die Nasionale Raad van Provinsies, ja; maar wie in die publiek verstaan dit? Vir hulle is ‘n parlementslid iemand wat in die Nasionale Vergadering sit. Ek dink ons het ‘n nuwe naam nodig. Dankie. [Applous.] (Translation of Afrikaans speech follows.) [Ms C-S BOTHA: Thank you very much, Chairperson. In this debate last year the Chairperson gave her opinion on the fact that 89% of the time in the National Council of Provinces - and this applies equally to the National Assembly - we spoke English. She put it this way: ``If our people can hear us speak all the languages of the country they will be able to say: `I am present in the House.’’’ This sentiment finds a wide response from those who realise that diversity is an asset to democracy and not merely a cost factor.

Despite her expressed wish, a year later we still do not have a language policy for Parliament. Attempts have indeed been made to place something on the table, but at each meeting a new reason is offered why action cannot be taken. At the moment we are once again waiting for a cost impact study. Obviously this is necessary, but we could already have begun prioritising certain aspects of a policy and working out the detail thereof while we were busy with a long-term comprehensive study.

It will be a pity if the opening address of the next Parliament cannot be broadcast in all 11 languages simultaneously and be heard that way by the people in the gallery. I am sure that the new members of Parliament will wonder why we could not introduce that. I must add to that that this House plays a leading role in the increasing practice of multilingualism and that this is an interesting facet of our identity.

It also reflects the differences in the provinces from which we come. This links up with the consistent guideline for Parliament to be transparent and sensitive to the needs of the electorate and to be attuned to service delivery.

I do not really want to comment on the lack or otherwise of funds for the committees. What concerns me more at this stage is the nature of the work which falls to the select committees. I believe that these committees - and it is not the case across the board - are not treated with the same seriousness as those of the National Assembly.

Legislation often passes through our committees with improper haste. Hearings on legislation primarily take place in the National Assembly. One can just look at the two Bills currently before Parliament: the MFM Bill and the property tax Bill. Both these Bills will have a particular impact on local government, but the detailed work on them is being done in the National Assembly. The parliamentary management must look at the working of our committees continuously to see if we cannot have a better liaison - not only at the parliamentary level, but also in the provinces.

One of the challenges for the next phase of the parliamentary process will be to promote the public’s participation in it. This is extremely important, but not only for the public. Parliamentarians all benefit from these educational processes and exposure. It is for this reason that I also appreciate the funds which are voted to give us the opportunity to participate in international programmes - although I have not personally had this opportunity yet.

The Vote under discussion has grown by an average of 15,3% from 1999 up to and including 2003. This growth cannot be detected equally through all the programmes of the Vote. If we look at the general trend in expenditure from 1999 to 2006, we will see that on average the allocations to all the posts more than doubled over this period - except for parliamentary salaries.

What is of relevant importance, is the money for support services to political representatives, which falls under Programme 2. However, the 14,1% increase over the past four years has largely gone towards increasing travel costs and not to increased service.

An interesting question also arises with regard to Programme 3, which contains financial support to political parties as well as constituency and leader support for political parties. Are these funds now going to be further divided among the six new political parties which have now come into being as a result of the floor-crossing legislation? Or will new funding be found for them? Programme 3 has grown by 13,6%, but the DA contends that these services are by no means adequate to allow members of Parliament to serve their constituencies properly and are by no means adequate to meet the administrative needs of parliamentarians. We are often merely highly paid administrative officials.

In conclusion, I would like to recognise the quality leadership we experience in this House. However, we are of the opinion that this institution would enjoy much better recognition from the public for the unique work done here if we were not in the unenviable position that in this House we operate virtually unrecognisably. What are we? We are members of the National Council of Provinces, yes: but who among the public understands that? For them a member of parliament is someone who sits in the National Assembly. I think we need a new name. Thank you. [Applause.]]

Ms B S MOHLAKA (KwaZulu-Natal): Deputy Chairperson, hon Dr G J Zuma, who is the Leader of Government Business, Chairperson of the National Council of Provinces, Mrs G N M Pandor, hon Members of the NCOP who are permanent delegates, and special delegates from various provinces in South Africa, it gives me great pleasure to be afforded the opportunity to participate in this policy debate on Budget Vote No 2.

It may be a bit difficult to make a meaningful contribution in this debate as one is not a permanent delegate who is au fait with the daily activities and budgetary processes of Parliament and the NCOP. Therefore, we may not be on the same wavelength.

Parliamentary debate is very informative. However, budgeting for any institution is followed by careful planning, after mission statements, goals, strategic plans and priorities have been set.

There are negative factors that have affected the budgetary process. The floor-crossing legislation, with its ugly face, has created a lot of budgetary problems in Parliament. The individuals who have had to undergo certain metamorphosis in order to become different creatures with new party names, pose a serious challenge to budgeting allocations to parties currently represented in the National Assembly and provinces. The floor- crossing legislation is backfiring on the national Government, the provincial governments and the IEC, which must scramble for funds for the newly formed parties, most of which are independent, and there are no funds.

Parliament is now robbing Peter in order to pay Paul: No wonder it distances itself from very important life-threatening diseases, such as HIV/Aids. For example, purchasing of nevirapine could assist in the treatment and management of HIV/Aids for all our voters who have been affected.

We were all very excited and looked forward to April 8 2003, a date that was scheduled for the signing of an agreement between our national Government and the Global Fund, to a tune of R576 million, but this did not happen. The money was going to help KwaZulu-Natal to fight HIV/Aids, TB and malaria. KwaZulu-Natal was going to benefit from the Global Fund following the scientific application by top academics and practitioners from the Nelson Mandela Medical School at the University of Natal - Bo Professor Malegapuru (Makgoba). This amount alone was going to ease the burden on the budgetary allocation.

All I can say is that the provinces need more money in order to conduct parliamentary duties effectively. We have just heard from the Chairperson of the NCOP, Mrs N Pandor, that there is overexpenditure of R22 million by Parliament. We therefore request an increase on the parliamentary budget allocation.

In conclusion, it would also be appreciated if Parliament could revise MPs’ and MPLs’ salaries positively because this category of politicians can be classified as temporary workers. They are in today and out tomorrow. Chief directors, deputy directors and directors of Government departments get a better reward in terms of salaries.

I am saying this because politicians work round the clock. There is no proper annual leave. As it is, the NCOP is overburdened with Bills and is grossly understaffed. KwaZulu-Natal supports this budget debate. I thank you. [Applause.]

CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: I see you smiling when there is talk about money. I do not know why you are smiling. OK.

Mrs N P NKONYENI (KwaZulu-Natal): Chairperson, first of all I want to distance myself from the two points that my colleague has just alluded to, namely the issue of floor-crossing and nevirapine. It shows which political party she comes from.

Thank you, Chairperson, for affording me this opportunity to participate in this debate.

The South African Parliament is a democratic institution whose mandate is to promulgate legislation which is nonracial, nonsexist, and which unites the diverse communities of this country. The mandate of parliamentarians is to play an oversight role with regard to the functions of the executive and other institutions which aim at enhancing our democracy.

The very first clause of our Freedom Charter says, ``The people shall govern.’’ The people should be governing by participating in the formulation of Government policies. Are we really affording our people the opportunity to participate?

I am asking this question because in 2001 NCOP delegates visited the mighty KwaZulu-Natal province in order to disseminate information about pieces of legislation that had been promulgated that impacted particularly on the lives of ordinary women in particular. They were prevented from participating by some undemocratic and patriarchal forces in an area called KwaNongoma. We compiled a report and submitted a complaint to the Speaker’s Office in the National Assembly. No steps were taken. The question, therefore, is what interventional role Parliament should play when such conduct prevails.

I congratulate Parliament for improving the skills of parliamentarians, by forging partnerships with other progressive institutions, in order to strengthen their capacity. The national gender machinery was established in order to empower women. We have just been informed that one of the pillars of that machinery is closing down, that is the women’s empowerment unit, whose mandate is to empower women parliamentarians. The reason for that is that there is no funding. To me that is unacceptable, because we still expect other women to come and join the ranks of the policy-makers. How are they going to be capacitated?

I wish that more oversight could prevail when a budget has been allocated to provinces, especially with regard to the co-ordination of programmes that aim at pushing back the frontiers of poverty. I know for a fact that KwaZulu-Natal, the Eastern Cape and Limpopo are provinces that are always targeted as poor provinces and more funds are allocated to them. The Premier of my province announced early this year that there is no strategy to co-ordinate the programmes of poverty eradication in his department. If the programmes are not co-ordinated, that is a problem. How does this House intervene in terms of capacitating the incapable?

Chairperson, I would like this province to look into the programmes of development agencies, such as the IDCs, the NDAs, Umsobomvus and others. Do they reach our rural people who are incapable of compiling business plans, which is a requirement?

Allow me to congratulate both Houses, the National Assembly and the NCOP, on a job well done. I wish that our public servants could be patriotic enough to implement the good policies of our democratic country and adhere to the principles of good governance and Batho Pele.

In conclusion, can I congratulate KwaZulu-Natal’s permanent delegates. They are a useful resource to our legislature. They are visible and they really do encourage public participation.

Bonke ke abavela eKapa banomehluko across political affiliation. Ngithatha ke lelithuba lokubonga ngoba kuyafundiswa eKapa. [As for all the people from Cape Town, they differ in political affiliation. Let me then take this opportunity to thank them since a great deal of teaching is taking place in Cape Town.] Chair, I thank you. [Applause.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr M J Mahlangu): Siyabonga. Sozovul’ amehlo sibabuke kakhulu ke manje ngoba sowushilo. [We thank you. We will from now on open our eyes, because you have alerted us.]

Mr T RALANE: Deputy Chairperson, hon Chairperson of the NCOP, MECs and special delegates, we have just been told today that if an institution is involved in an exercise called ``a cost impact study’’, that is just an excuse. I think that all of us who today are speaking about the Budget and budgeting know that this is the most appropriate action to undertake in whatever you are going to do.

In the same breath, as you move away from the CBD of every town, one party has huge placards that say, `` Put 150 000 policeman and women on the streets’’, and I assume that has not been costed. Clearly, having 150 000 policeman and women on the beat has not been costed.

Secondly, it is also incorrect to say - I am informed about this - that funding for our own committees is insufficient. In fact, the issues that you are talking about, the business plans and other issues, are matters that are going to strengthen oversight and accountability.

The other matter that was raised, which I think is a constitutional matter, namely funding for the additional parties that have been formed as a result of floor crossing, is going to be addressed in terms of our own Constitution in the country. But I think comrade Nkonyi has assisted me regarding the matter of HIV/Aids, because that also is a matter that we must look into as we talk about all these other matters.

It is a privilege to address this august House on the Budget Vote of Parliament. This Budget Vote debate must be understood in a wider context. It must be held in the context of interactions between Parliament, the executive and the citizens of the country.

Moreover, the debate on this Budget Vote cannot stop here. The role of this Parliament has ramifications for us, our neighbouring states in Southern Africa and even beyond. The new wave of democracy on our continent, which is evidenced by the hosting of multiparty presidential or parliamentary elections in many African states since the 1990s, presents new challenges to our national and continental institutional designs. These are manifestations of the fresh winds blowing across our continent.

The successful closure of the OAU and the beginning of the AU are often viewed as linkages or mirror images of our own successful political transition. This perception is not unmindful of the new challenges awaiting our attention. But the point has to be made, in no uncertain terms, that South Africa, together with partner African governments, has provided continental leadership. The continental role played by our President places the role of our national Parliament within a new democracy, under a new microscope and will serve as a benchmark for African states. I wish to locate the role of our national Parliament within this extended focus and, of course, such a focus will be appropriate since we have just celebrated Africa Day, on Sunday, 25 May 2003.

Our national fiscus has stabilised, with a set of macroeconomic policies having been introduced, consolidated and largely implemented. South Africa’s global message remains the crucial one, that racial diversity and harmony in general are attainable.

South Africa’s stature is supported by its positive and potentially stabilising role, especially given its relative political and economic giantism. South Africa accounts for 45% of the GDP of all of sub-Saharan Africa and for 75% of that of the 14 members of the SADC region.

South African business is the largest single investor in the SADC region and South Africa remains the major FDI investor in Africa as a whole, and has not been the recipient of much of the world’s investment. Foreign Direct Investment into Africa is roughly about 4,8% of flows to developing countries.

While there is a need to establish the conditions necessary for attracting local and foreign investment to Africa, governance issues cannot be overlooked. The role of Parliament and commitment to transparency and good governance come under scrutiny. We must beware of a simplistic review of governance. Governance is not only about things Government must do, such as holding regular elections, effective administration and securing peace and security, but also means that Government must do things in ways that allow people to believe that they have a stake in Government and governance. Governance is not only about representivity and legitimacy. These are essential, but governance is most importantly about being accountable to the citizens. While governance is about exercising political power, the need to be accountable to citizens is indispensable. The point to be made here is that politics is as important to successful development as economics.

For far too long governance was viewed only in terms of economic progress and administrative efficiency, as if these are the only components of good governance. Good governance requires the establishment and strengthening of institutions able to hold the executive and individuals to account. Our national Parliament and the African Parliament have this responsibility. The success of our national Parliament in this regard could have spill-over effects on the African Parliament, since the success of the African Union and its appendages is linked to our own successful transition.

As a member of the Joint Budget Committee, one of the questions we often raise is: To what extent does this Budget Vote 2 and the resources it distributes reflect the policy decision taken by the democratic forces? A budget is a critical tool for oversight. To determine whether it is good or bad depends on the extent to which it addresses our objectives.

The Parliament Vote No 2 and its outcomes is the test of our achievements. National Parliament has, for example, introduced 85 Bills and produced 69 Acts, and, most importantly, hosted many public hearings.

Besides being transparent, our Parliament develops and pursues democratically a legislative agenda which is commensurate with the objectives of the progressive forces supporting transformation in this country. The progressive outcome and content of our legislation, in essence, is the real test of the outcomes of this national institution. National Parliament has implemented our policy choices in a manner that holds this institution accountable to the people we serve.

The ANC supports the budget. [Applause.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Deputy Chairperson, I would like to begin by thanking the Deputy President for the contribution that he made. We had indication earlier of the schedule of the Deputy President and we knew he would leave before we concluded this debate. But I was very happy that the Leader of Government Business was able to be here and to make some of the important points that he has about the work of the Council. I am sure many of you will recognise that some of what the Deputy President said certainly accorded with a number of issues we have been discussing recently, especially with respect to strengthening our partnership with the organised local government. It is one of the areas that we must take up.

I have got to say that certainly with respect to the hon Van Niekerk, we must give him the Chair from time to time to allow that firm humorous voice to emerge from the Chair. I hope that we are going to proceed to make real the intention of our conference on multiligualism which was hosted by this Parliament. I think it will be an important initiative and it is certainly something that we should look at.

In terms of efficiency, I have also been concerned about it and I think it raises a number of questions about levels of support, the ability to execute decisions and so on. I think we tend to be fairly shy about ensuring that we have adequate strategic support, perhaps as Parliament, but more particularly as the presiding officers. It is an area that we need to strengthen.

We also need to see far more follow up from staff. I think it is very difficult for politicians and presiding officers to be implementing agents. It is more the management that should play that role. The reference I made earlier to the unavailability of the annual report up to today is a strong indicator of what I would call a problem of efficient delivery. So clearly, there is an area there that needs to be addressed.

Certainly, regarding the matters of public participation and interpretation facilities, they are aspects we must give attention to; I agree with that. But I thought, hon Van Niekerk, you would praise me for my multilingual skills.

Ke bua Setswana, SeXhosa, le Seesimane. Ke ne ke di bua tsotlhe kwa Taung e bile ke gopola gore o tlaa ba bolelela jalo. [I speak Setswana, isiXhosa and English. I spoke all of them in Taung and I thought that you will tell them so.]

Also thanks to the Chairperson of Committees for the contributions that have been made. I am very excited about the visioning that both the Deputy Chairperson and the Chairperson of Committees have referred to, namely the strategic intent of the National Council of Provinces and focused attention we wish to give to our mandate and ensuring that we execute it. I think this is very exciting.

Hon Botha, I think there is nothing that constrains the committees of the National Council of Provinces with regard to holding public hearings. The fact is, where do they do this? And in my view, we should be looking at partnerships with the provincial legislatures and public hearings at that level, because we are not getting to the provinces on a number of these pieces of legislation. Certainly, it is something I believe the committees must look into, now that more adequate financial support and planning expertise has been provided to committees.

I am concerned about the inadequacy of time to address section 76 legislation. Members who were in the Programme Committee would have heard this morning that I have indicated that any new section 76 Bills which are introduced in the National Assembly, clearly, we will not have time to deal with because we must be true to our mandate to ensure that provinces have sufficient time to consider concurrent legislation.

Regarding section 75 Bills, we will deal with that as per the requirement in terms of procedure and constitutional mandate. But concerning section 76 Bills, if indeed we believe that our task of ensuring that provincial interest is accommodated and represented in this House, we cannot neglect our duty to then fully consult provincial legislatures that are the representatives of the voice of the people at provincial level. So I think we need to be more strict in this regard and, as the hon Van Niekerk has said, we will be strict on that particular question.

With respect to the constituency office funds, I think members must begin to make submissions as political parties to the Joint Rules Committees on this question. If there are inadequacies, let us make proper submissions. Let us indicate how we use them. Part of the problem is that as Parliament we do not get reports from political parties on how the constituency programme is executed, even at the programme level, without other details. And so, in order to justify increased expenditure in this area, I think there has to be far more of an accountability mechanism put in place. But it is something that political parties certainly could raise.

Regarding the new parties and funding for them, we have Rules. In terms of the Rules of the National Assembly, which primarily is affected by this, we do provide party funding support to political party leaders. Certainly, the new leaders of the newly formed parties I suppose will have to be given attention in terms of that procedural aspect which is part of our policy and part of our Rules. I am in the fortunate position that I don’t have to face this question in the National Council of Provinces because we go for stability, and that’s what we have here.

I would think that in terms of the notion, the concept and term ``permanent delegation’’ and all the other terminology used with respect to the National Council of Provinces, again we have mechanisms. The constitutional review process occurs every year. I have not seen a single political party making a submission about changing aspects of the Constitution which relate to the National Council of Provinces. Certainly, we are open to doing that.

With regard to the hon member who made comments on HIV/Aids and KwaZulu- Natal and this Parliament not being active on HIV/Aids, I am afraid I couldn’t quite understand the place of that in terms of the debate. Certainly, in our Social Development Committee, the one that focuses on health matters, we have sought to find out exactly what the situation is with respect to HIV/Aids in our country. We’ve looked at what has been done with respect to the provision of Nevirapine and in which clinics and hospitals this is done across the country. We have debated and examined, through questions and other procedures, the whole policy with respect to confronting the pandemic in South Africa.

If the colleague is referring to the province not being active in this area, we must be told so and this is an aspect that we will investigate. I had hoped that perhaps, given the reference to policy areas, the colleague might perhaps have told us a little bit about what we heard in the news this morning, that the bulk and majority of children who are poor and hungry in our country are in the province of KwaZulu-Natal.

Despite the fact that, through the provisions of the Financial and Fiscal Commission, we do make allocations of conditional expenditure that provide for social support in that area, we do, in fact, have under-registration of children who should be receiving social grants. We would want the provincial legislature to assist us in understanding why this is the case and how the legislature - the public representatives - will respond and change the dire circumstances of children in that province.

I think this is where our oversight work should be occurring, and certainly from this House, I will be asking that we give attention to what was reported with respect to children and their access to social grants; not just in KwaZulu-Natal. All they said was that the majority who are reported as being hungry emanate as underaged children from that province.

But I think it is a national phenomenon that we need to give attention to, province to province, so that we have a proper report from each of the delegations on what we are doing with respect to assuring that children who are poor have access to the Child Support Grant, and that they are receiving the supported funding that Government has put in place in order to provide help.

On Parliament adjusting the salaries of MPs and MPLs, I’m always so pleased, in fact, that Parliament is removed from deciding on salaries of members and I think that as public representatives we need to remember this. This is all decided through a commission on remuneration - an independent body - which makes recommendations to the President who then either accepts or rejects the recommendations.

Finally, an area that I think we need to give much more scrutiny to and to work on more assiduously, somewhat related to a number of the points that you made reference to. We should give more careful thought to the question: What does provincial interest mean? I’ve been saying this since I joined this House as a Deputy Chairperson in 1998, and I’m wondering why we are unable to really determine what is meant by provincial interest. I think for me some of it means being be to know if we have a national policy that says, as follows, ``that we provide pensions to those who are over sixty in our country’’.

We as this House would have to establish, on a fairly carefully tabulated basis, whether all persons who are sixty or over, who pass a means test have access to the social pension. If they don’t, we would need to establish why? If the reason lies in the activity of a national executive member, we would be able to pose questions and queries here. If the reason lies in the provincial part of our country failing to execute its mandate, we would feed that provincial interest matter into the legislatures where the MPLs must then act.

But we sometimes behave as though we are unable to understand that. Surely, provincial interest has to mean that synergy between ourselves as national, provincial and local governments needs to be synthesised into a response to the interests of our people.

We are not here merely to listen to ourselves. We are here to change our country. We are here for cost-effective impact, hon Ralane. I like the term. ``Cost-effective impact’’ - I think you were saying - is what we should seek, and I believe we as the National Council of Provinces should begin to reach towards that.

I agree absolutely with hon Ralane that without good governance, we can forget development. We have got to learn on our continent that we must pursue good governance. Associated with it is democracy, accountability and transparency. Once we have those, we will have a continent rich in success.

Thank you to all hon members once more, and I am pleased to enjoy your support for our budget. I hope that it will deliver the results that we seek. Thank you very much. [Applause.]

Debate concluded.

                         APPROPRIATION BILL

                           (Policy debate)

Vote No 29 - Housing

The MINISTER OF HOUSING: Deputy Chair, hon members, my presentation today to this august House follows a hot debate sparked by my budget speech to the National Assembly a week ago. Topping the debate is the critical issue of the availability of housing finance to the historically marginalised groups in our country. However, it would be very disappointing if the debate could overshadow the important issue of accelerating the delivery of quality housing to the poor communities of our country.

Indeed the vulnerable of our society, particularly women, older persons, people with disabilities and people infected with and affected by HIV/Aids, should remain the main beneficiaries of our housing subsidy grant. These vulnerable sections of our populace should, more than ever before, see that the Government is indeed taking bold steps to make them masters of their own destinies.

Our aim is to build solid homes and help in the building of thriving communities while at the same time trying to reverse the apartheid spatial development patterns that we have inherited. In doing this, we ought to reach out and mobilise nongovernmental and community-based organisations, private sector partners and the beneficiaries themselves so that we face these challenges as a collective. Critical to this is the need for all stakeholders to begin to play their respective roles in the delivery of housing to our people.

I take this opportunity to thank all the stakeholders who have travelled the nine years journey with us to help us realise our goal of delivering more than 1,5 million houses to the poor. I also thank hon members for their continued support of the housing policy and programme.

As hon members might be aware, our provinces have been confronted by a number of challenges in the past nine years of housing delivery. The tendering process, particularly at municipal level, is still a problem. We have found that the capacity of local authorities and provincial governments to implement the new procurement regime introduced in April 2002 is expected to take a while to develop. This means that the current approval rate of housing projects is most likely to decline from previous levels.

The scarcity of land, mainly as a result of costs, differ from province to province and land claims that have been lodged in various municipalities still need our full attention. Provincial departments of housing are continuously grappling with the problem of being unable to finalise housing subsidy applications on the grounds of outstanding or unresolved land claims. However, we have not been able to establish exactly how many of these outstanding land claims are really stalling the approval of housing subsidy applications received by provinces, nor do we know the exact number of existing unapproved housing subsidy applications as a result of this problem.

Owing to the legacy of apartheid and massive insecurity of tenure, it has also been difficult to reach the expected annual provincial housing delivery targets. The issue of tenure securitisation has also become a complex process, which makes it impossible for provincial departments of housing to fast-track the approval of subsidy applications. What complicates this process is the multiplicity of tenure legislation, with often cumbersome, costly and complicated procedural requirements.

The availability of land for housing purposes in tribal areas has also emerged as one of the critical issues behind the 2002-2003 provincial underspending of the financial allocation for housing. The most common explanation is that some tribal authorities are not willing to forgo the powers they have in respect of land allocation, administration and management.

However, from informal discussions that our officials had with the institutions of traditional authorities, it has emerged that at the core of the problem is the issue of governance as a whole, which includes both political and economic considerations. In other words, the inherent differences between the pre- and postmodern South Africa’s system of governance have been cited as contributing to the current nonavailability of tribal land for housing purposes.

We hope that the draft discussion document on the role of traditional authorities in governance that was produced by the Department of Provincial and Local Government will help to sort out this problem, as soon as it is finalised.

The implementation of the National Environmental Management Act of 1998 has also been found to contribute to the delays and the implementation of our projects. This Act requires the compilation of environmental impact assessments to show the impact that any planned development intervention would have on the environment and its people. Most provincial departments of housing have cited this requirement as a hindrance to housing delivery. Part of the explanation relates to the time taken and costs involved in compiling each environmental impact assessment report.

In Gauteng, for example, where this matter affected a major portion of the expenditure, intraprovincial intervention had to be made at the highest level to deal with interpretation problems by the provincial department responsible for management of the environmental legislation.

Bridging finance to smaller and emerging contractors is still a constraint with regard to the delivery of housing. The guarantees provided by the National Urban Reconstruction and Housing Agency and the finance provided by smaller specialised banks do assist in this regard but need to be strengthened and linked to the Department of Housing’s Emerging Contractor Programme. More importantly, NURCHA has managed to assist more than 30 women projects, nationally, with finance. The total value of these projects is R77 million, and the women were guaranteed by NURCHA to the tune of more than R16 million. However, in total, when one considers all the initiatives towards unlocking access to finance by women, NURCHA has been able to facilitate more than R500 million to women in the past nine years.

From April 2002 the National Housing Finance Corporation has approved facilities totalling R2 million and disbursed R43 million to the beneficiaries.

However, inadequate private sector finance continues to constrain housing delivery and access to quality housing. As I mentioned in the National Assembly, I hope the introduction of the Community Reinvestment Bill will contribute to the flow of credit to developers and housing consumers. Allow me, though, to reiterate that particular attention is being given to the provinces underspending, especially those that are not in this situation for the first time.

It is encouraging to note that at least 9,3 million people have benefited from the 1,5 million houses that we have built and that 400 000 former municipal homes have been transferred in the past nine years to their new owners.

Of these houses, Eastern Cape has delivered 218 780; Free State 108 155; Gauteng 387 409; KwaZulu-Natal 245 295; Mpumalanga 105 065; Northen Cape 33 799; Limpopo 100 314; North West and Western Cape 125 353 and 167 368 respectively. Thus our efforts, which included subsidy increases in line with inflation rates, have served to intensify our responses to reducing homelessness among our people.

One of the most critical areas of our work this year will be to consolidate our strategy of empowering the historically marginalised entrepreneurs, especially women, and help to facilitate the establishment of small and medium enterprises in the industry. We will do this, among others, by intensifying the enforcement of the 10% quota set aside for women contractors in the provincial allocations. We will do this with full appreciation of the work already done in other provinces that have managed to meet and even exceed this quota.

Our records, though, indicate that about R850 million from the past eight years’ budget was allocated to women contractors in the nine provinces. This constitutes only about 3,9% of the provincial allocations since 1994. This figure needs to be urgently improved if we are to meet our objective in this regard.

Quality in housing goes hand in glove with the ability to diversify housing options and the right to beneficiaries to select the type of housing that will adequately address their needs. We have already announced our intentions to intensify the strategy for the densification of certain residential areas to optimally utilise scarcely available land and infrastructure and to provide the growing demand for rental housing in heavily populated urban provinces.

My department is in the process of developing a comprehensive strategy for the undertaking of medium-density housing development in inner city areas. The programme will cater for new developments as well as the refurbishment or conversion of existing buildings. The programme will also cater for a variety of design models with various levels of finishing to suit the widest range of affordability levels.

The current institutional housing subsidy programme will, in the process, be evaluated to determine its suitability for the future housing development approach. The finalisation of the proposals regarding this is expected by August.

The aforementioned Medium Density Housing Development Programme is linked to the Government’s initiative to establish and operationalise adequate sustainable housing institutions to undertake the said medium-density housing development projects. The Social Housing Bill is also being drafted to support medium-density housing and will be tabled in Parliament this year. Let me now refer to the Presidential Job Summit held, as you know, in October 1998. The Government, private sector and labour organisations resolved that there is a need for a National Presidential Lead Project on Rental Housing at sufficient scale to pilot affordable mass housing delivery and an alternative form of tenure, especially rental housing. The Presidential Pilot Project on Rental Housing was then conceived to provide 50 000 rental units in three phases over multiple financial years.

The Government has approved the institutional and financial models to be used in the implementation of the programme to pave the way for implementation of the projects. This agreement facilitated the appointment of the National Housing Finance Corporation as the management agent for the programme.

The three projects selected for the first phase of the Presidential Pilot Project on Rental Housing are in various stages of implementation. Of the three, Johannesburg, notably the Kliptown subproject, and Witbank, eMalahleni, have already completed their show units. These show units will serve the dual purpose of physically launching the Presidential Pilot Project on Rental Housing and to further enhance the end-user processes such as unit selection based on individual affordability. You know that the first pilot project for Gauteng was indeed launched by the President at Fordsburg last year.

I want to turn to housing finance. In order to ensure a better quality of life for all South Africans, we will continue to monitor the activities of the home-building industry to ensure the transformation of the industry, through our Constitution and all other relevant pieces of legislation.

Despite the efforts we are making to try and provide affordable housing to the poor, we still have to ensure that all the stakeholders effectively play their respective roles in this regard. Our records reveal that only 35 759 of the 1,5 million houses built by the Government since 1994 were partially financed by the financial institutions through credit. This constitutes only 2,8% of the total.

The reality is that we still have millions of people who are so poor that they cannot acquire their housing without any external assistance. It is in this context that we feel access to finance remains the greatest challenge to low-cost housing development. The Government is therefore obliged to create the necessary environment to address this situation, and the restructuring of the financial sector is a necessary priority.

As part of this restructuring, we promulgated the Home Loan and Mortgage Disclosure Act in 2000, and the Community Reinvestment Bill is sure to be passed into law during the course of this year. Whereas the first Act is merely for financial institutions to disclose certain information, the Community Reinvestment Bill provides for actual targets which financial institutions will have to meet in complying with their community reinvestment obligations. The Bill, like the Home Loan and Mortgage Disclosure Act, makes provision for financial institutions to be rated on their performance. The targets, however, will be set after consultation with the relevant stakeholders - and I want to repeat that - including the financial institutions. The process for the establishment of the Office of the Disclosure has been initiated and is expected to be completed in the next few weeks.

As part of broadening access to housing finance, we are currently trying to inculcate the culture of savings in the housing beneficiaries. This campaign has already yielded positive results since the programme was launched by Deputy President Zuma in 2001.

The National Urban Reconstruction and Housing Agency, NURCHA, has since managed to mobilise 39 315 savers from the seven provinces that the agency has managed to penetrate. KwaZulu-Natal and Gauteng have the highest number of savers, with over 16 000 and 11 000 respectively. Free State and the Northern Cape are still to introduce the programme. As part of further enhancing the programme, my department is at an advanced stage with regard to the development of a savings-linked housing subsidy scheme that will further assist beneficiaries to save their contributions in a structured, dedicated and well-managed way. It is envisaged that the scheme will be introduced during the coming months or so.

Let me just give you a sense of provincial allocations: Eastern Cape has R641,757 million; Free State R325,403 million; Gauteng R923,892; million; KwaZulu-Natal R796,390 million; Mpumalanga R274,408 million; Northern Cape R85,973 million; Limpopo R426,160 million; North-West R347,974 million and Western Cape R423,282 million. I thank you, Madam Chair. That’s the end of my contribution. [Applause.]

UMnu V V Z WINDVOëL: Mgcinisihlalo lohlon, iNdvuna yeliTiko, leTindlu, Nkst B S Mabandla, tindvuna tematiko etindlu tetifundza lakhona lapha kanye malunga lahlon, ngitsandza kucala ngekuhalalisela iNdvuna Mabandla ekucokweni kwakhe kutsi abe ngumholi waleliTiko leTindlu.

Sineletsemba lekutsi njengobe atsatsa etinyatselweni temhlahlindlela, Comrade Joe Slovo kanye nesigayigayi sembutfo wetfu, Comrade Sankie Mahanyele-Mthembu, utawutsi njengamake afake ligalelo lelisetulu kuphakela sive saseNingizimu Afrika ngetindlu. (Translation of Siswati paragraphs follows.)

[Mr V V Z WINDVOЁL: Mr Chairperson, Minister of Housing, Mrs B S Mabandla, provincial housing Ministers who are here, and hon members, I would like to start off by congratulating the hon Minister Mabandla on her appointment as the leader of the Department of Housing.

We are hopeful that as she follows in the footsteps of Comrade Joe Slovo and the stalwart of our organisation, Comrade Sankie Mthembi-Mahanyele, she will, as a mother, make an invaluable contribution towards the building of houses for the citizens of South Africa.] It is in that spirit that we welcome the Budget policy speech of the hon Minister and support the passing of this Budget Vote, in order to consolidate and expand the delivery of affordable housing and shelter to the homeless.

Since the inception of our democratic Government in 1994, significant strides have been taken towards normalising the housing environment, moving away from the fragmented nature of housing delivery to developing integrated housing. As we move towards the end of the second term of our democratic dispensation, over R18 billion has been spent by the ANC-led Government in creating millions of housing opportunities. Thousands of permanent and temporary jobs were created either directly or indirectly.

This translates into a positive socioeconomic impact on our communities, particularly the poorest of the poor. It is true that the Ministry and the department are playing their role as an integral part of pushing back the frontiers of poverty. Never again shall we talk about 99-year-lease schemes, racially based and sexually discriminating housing schemes, which left the majority of our people out in the cold, oppressed, suppressed and depressed.

Typical of any nation in transformation, traversing such a road cannot be without obstacles and challenges. In a move to transform the legal framework which resulted in skewed participation in the housing sector, the following progressive pieces of legislation, amongst others, were passed into law: The first to be mentioned is the Home Loan and Mortgage Disclosure Act of 2000, which provides for the establishment of the Office of Disclosure, thus compelling financial institutions to disclose information and identify discriminatory lending patterns.

The second one is the Housing Consumers Protection Measures Act of 1988, which requires residential builders to register with the NHBRC. Those who don’t know what NHBRC stands for, like Mr Tolo, it is the National Home Builders Registration Council. … [Laughter.] It obliges them to enrol all new houses under the NHBRC defect warranty scheme. The aim of the act is to protect home owners from inferior workmanship. Our committee is also looking forward to the formal tabling of the Social Housing Bill.

One other challenge facing the department and the country at large is the unscrupulous, fly-by-night contractors and certain officials bent on corrupt and fraudulent means of making a quick buck. Such unholy collaboration has led, in other instances, to contractors being fully paid while leaving behind shoddy and incomplete projects.

While condemning these unpatriotic nincompoops who don’t have the development of their fellow citizens at heart, we must, however, commend those contractors who have done their work with excellence and equally salute the officials who are honest to the principle of Batho Pele.

The Government should not be seen as the sole role-player in the provision of housing. Financial institutions have a great role to play in providing affordable housing to the citizens of the country, from which they rake in so much profits. Their discriminatory policy of redlining has resulted in the red-carding or simply the denial of housing opportunities to thousands of citizens because they found themselves living or residing in areas classified as high risk areas or at times prejudiced as noncreditworthy. It is in this context that we welcome the Ministry’s legislative proposals to overcome these redlining obstacles. On a lighter note, we may as well move to green lining, in terms of which everybody would be given access to housing opportunities … [Interjections.]

Nine bekunene, bantfwana baMbandzeni lowacedza Lubombo ngekuhlehletela, kuvisana buhlungu kutsi ngesikhatsi sinebantfu labahhushwa ngumoya, banetfwe timvula kushube umnkantja ngenca yemakhata, nekweswela tindlu; kube kukhona tifundza letisala nencumbi yemali lebalelwa etigidzini lesele kutsiwe ngema-roll overs.

Ngekwembiko we IGFR lobuya ka-National Treasury nome Temafajikelele, letifundza tilandzelana ngalendlela, ngemnyakatimali wanga 2002-2003: Gauteng 52,1%; Eastern Cape 44,2%; Mpumalanga 32,9%; KwaZulu-Natal 20,4%; North West 6,4%. (Translation of Siswati paragraphs follows.)

[Ladies and gentlemen, sons and daughters of Mbandzeni who ran around the Lubombo mountain to its end, it is painful to note that even today we still have people who fall victim to midnight winter snow, exposed to cold winter rains and chilled to the marrow for lack of housing while some provinces still have billions of rands in roll-over funds. According to the IGFR report from National Treasury, those districts are as follows - in the 2002- 03 financial year: Gauteng 52,1%; Eastern Cape 44,2%; Mpumalanga 32,9%; KwaZulu-Natal 20,4%; North West 6,4%.]

Other members will also reflect on this unacceptable scenario of roll- overs, and we hope that the R13 billion plus which is budgeted for the next three MTEF years will not fall prey to this roll-over game too.

Integrating land and housing delivery will go a long way towards deracialising our human settlements, thus consolidating nonracialism as embodied in the Constitution. We are eagerly waiting for the introduction of and passage of the Communal Land Bill which will remove some of the obstacles to accelerated housing delivery in the rural areas.

Housing delivery involves all three spheres of government. However, we must say that the realignment of local municipalities, coupled with the compilation and adoption of IDPs, comes as an advantage towards a holistic approach.

Let me also warn our local municipalities to guard against big business or developers lobbying the local councils for purchase of land, and then build houses and sell them at exorbitant prices. In the long term this will haunt us, because as the population grows, these municipalities may have no land available for human settlement as it is also made accessible to those who live beyond the poverty line.

Furthermore, experience has shown that if beneficiaries either build the houses themselves or organise to build houses on their own, they can build better houses as they can save on labour costs and also avoid having to pay the profit element being charged by developers.

In conclusion, may I wish the department well in expanding the provision of housing, including social housing, the People’s Housing Process, rental housing, rural housing for rural people and agricultural villages, and in ensuring proper living conditions for our farm workers. I have spoken. We support the passage of this Bill. [Applause.]

Mr G E NKWINTI (Eastern Cape): Madam Chairperson, hon members of this House and the hon Minister, we always cherish the honour of addressing this august body. Let me take this opportunity to pay tribute briefly to one of our greatest revolutionaries and liberation struggle heroes, the late Tata Walter Sisulu, and say that he was awesomely humble and his contribution to our liberation is unfathomable. How I wish I could be like him.

Mhlalingaphambili, akukho nto ephoxa nedanisa njengokungachithi imali kwezezindlu abantu bekhona, befuna izindlu. Ndifuna ukuqinisekisa le Ndlu okokuba leyo yinto engalalisi buthongo bumnandi, ngoba kaloku singabantu abahleli phakathi kwabantu abafuna izindlu.

Xa udibanisa le mali echazwe apha ngumphathiswa, ezi zigidi ziyi-R641, ze uyidibanise nemali ebesifanelwe kukuba sibe siyichithile, kodwa yasala, njengoko ilungu elihloniphekileyo lisitsho, ngakumbi xa iNdlu yoWiso- Mthetho ibingasivumela ze sixhaswe nayile Ndlu, iyonke ziibhiliyoni eziyi- R1,1. Loo nto ke siyibona njengomngeni omkhulu lowo. (Translation of isiXhosa paragraphs follows.)

[Chairperson, there is nothing as disappointing as underspending on housing when there are so many people who need houses. I want to assure this House that that causes sleepless nights, because we live among people who want houses.

If you add the amount mentioned by the Minister, R641 million, and the amount we were supposed to have spent that was rolled over, as the hon member indicated, we could spend a total of R1,1 billion, particularly if supported by the National Assembly and this House. We consider that a big challenge.]

It will require a combination of speed, scale and quality. We have to spend at a rate of R6 million a day, with the exception of Sundays. This is the reality of the challenge of housing delivery in the Eastern Cape province.

Critical to the success of this project is a number of factors: one, collaboration. We had to effect major reorganisation in the housing section of the department. We have had to collaborate with municipalities, with material suppliers, the Department of Labour, training institutions and contractors on a turn-around strategy in the project plan. This we have done.

Two, major internal reorganisation has had to take place, including the contracting of nine project managers and a release of 45 staff members from their routine office duties so that they could provide field support to the contractors, municipalities and the project managers with respect to administrative, technical and financial challenges on the spot. In our view, this is a challenge we can meet, working together with the people that we team up with.

The R1,1 billion translates into 60 000 serviced sites, which require of us to put up top structures. This is the reason we think we can meet the challenge, because we have built this serviced stock of 60 000. We now have to build top structures. But, of course, critical to this, we also have to look at the question of equity and balance that with quantity. To do that we have had to divide the 60 000 sites between the emerging and established contractors at the ratio of 50:50. Twenty percent of these sites go to women in construction in our province, which is a very strong component of housing delivery there.

I could just say that the year before last the province of the Eastern Cape spent 94% of its budget. The following year we had the scenario that the hon member referred to: We spent just over 80%. I will say boldly here that part of the challenge was to ensure that we build a strong small, medium and micro entrepreneurial base in the province. Women in construction are a very strong component of that, as well as young people. We have had to train these people. We think that we have made a turnaround.

The fact that we were able to spend 80% of our budget last year, up from 39%, speaks for itself. And we are proud to say that even as we speak there are people who are busy preparing for an assault on this 60 000 top structures in the province. We are confident that we will make a big impact.

We collaborated with partners in putting together a 51-weeks project plan, from 1 June 2003 to 1 March 2004, with specific time lines and milestones. We have worked together on this over the past three to four weeks. With all these stakeholders, we think that we will succeed.

There are threats, though, to the success of the plan. They are: institutional drags, co-ordinational issues (when you have such as huge number of people collaborating on one big project); failure to stick to agreed deliverables; ignoring the centrality of the beneficiary because of the People’s Housing Process, and lack of political will to do the right thing, which is one big challenge often ignored by most of us.

We have consensus with partners on the turn-around strategy. We have collaborated on drafting the project plan and we have radically restructured our housing administration section, making it more sensible or responsive to the need to deal promptly with challenges. That is the reason we are confident of delivering on our mandate despite the magnitude of the challenge.

We have put a lot of effort, thought and a lot of hard work into this plan. We are confident that it will work. Let me express the hope that next year, around this time, whoever will be standing here and talking on this subject will say something very positive. Thank you very much, Chairperson. [Applause.]

Mr N M RAJU: Hon Chair of Committees, hon Minister, hon special delegates, especially from the province of KwaZulu-Natal, hon colleagues, before South Africa’s first democratic elections in 1994, the ANC embarked on countrywide roadshows during which potential voters got, at first hand, the ANC’s vision for a free South Africa.[Applause.]

I quote:

Democracy will have little content and indeed will be short-lived if we cannot address our socioeconomic problems within an expanding and growing economy.

So said the hon former President Nelson Mandela in the blueprint for transformation, known as the Reconstruction and Development Programme, the RDP.

Today, nine years later, according to a comprehensive report released by the SA Human Rights Commission, the HRC, the ANC has failed to keep its promises. [Interjections.]

The HRC said the Government has failed millions of poverty-stricken South Africans through gross underspending, maladministration and rank incompetence, and not because of a lack of funds.

Therein lies the problem, and I am certain that the hon Minister will share the frustration of millions, like those in the Eastern Cape for example, where it is expected that only R500 million will be spent on housing, though it has been allocated a budget of R1,2 billion.

Not only the Eastern Cape, but most other provinces, including KwaZulu- Natal, are underspending on their budgets. And you heard a while ago the hon member from Mpumalanga providing you with the shameful scenario of high percentages of underspending. Obviously, capacity-building is the main bugbear. The hon Minister also alluded to land transfer to municipalities operating at a snail’s pace. And then there was the question of traditional leaders, some of whom seem to adopt an unco-operative attitude.

The DA acknowledges and applauds the Ministry for putting up some 1,5 million housing units, but millions still remain homeless. Besides food and clothing, shelter remains the basic need for the poor in our midst, since the time of the Flintstones. The Government dare not let them down.

I am now going to dwell on that slimy creature known as corruption. Understandably, I will focus on my province, KwaZulu-Natal, where, thanks to the MEC for Housing, Rev Wilson Ngcobo from the DA, I must add … [Interjections.] … has been busy overturning stones and exposing the rampant corruption that has been flourishing like slimy toads.

I have in my possession just a few articles from Housing in Southern Africa, which is a reputed magazine. [Interjections.] In March 2003: R30 million of taxpayers' cash wasted in KwaZulu-Natal property scam"; in April 2003:All talk and no action! Will justice prevail?’’

In his maiden speech in the KwaZulu-Natal legislature on 20 February 2003, the MEC stated that the end of the fraudsters and corrupt officials was nigh. Rev Ngcobo said that whilst the majority of his staff are hardworking and honest people, they are also plagued by officials who think that they are above the law and not accountable to the taxpayers of the province and the country.

In a period of just three and a half months last year, the KwaZulu-Natal department of housing, in a sudden surge of acquisitions, purchased 27 properties with the combined value of R73 million. The net result of this alleged scam amounts to around R30 million in taxpayers’ money, which should have gone towards housing the poor, but has instead been squandered by allegedly corrupt officials.

I just read to you the headlines in the March issue of Housing in South Africa. The news report reported on the alleged corrupt transactions involving Adv Emmanuel M Khoza, a departmental head of the KwaZulu-Natal department of housing under the Ministry of … [Time expired.]

Mr S L TSENOLI (Free State): Chairperson, I think the hon member who just spoke has a very short memory, like his party. They thrive on the drama of little instances of corruption here, maladministration there. They forget that it is the ANC’s integrity system that is unearthing these instances of corruption, which have been there before. [Applause.]

It is also appropriate to note that it is as a result of the stewardship of the ANC that the economy of this country has provided us with an increasing Housing budget. Just in the Free State, we had allocations of R218 million in 2000-01, R251 million in 2001-02, R289 million in 2002-03 and now R325 million. This is what the ANC meant, and these are not donor funds. This is South African taxpayers’ money. It is precisely because of this approach to our economy that we are able to generate enough resources to increasingly bring about a better life for all our people.

Of course it is because we are dealing with a mammoth task created over a period of 300 years that we will find problems of maladministration. It is because of the apartheid system, of denying people education and opportunities for jobs that we are dealing with people … We have to overhaul the engine, even if the body of the vehicle requires some touch ups. What we are seeing are birth pangs of a transforming system of government and service delivery in our country.

I am proud to say that in our province we have just completed, in the past three weeks, our housing sector plans. In fact, this involves five municipalities, but four of them are the main municipalities: Mangaung, Metsimaholo, Maluti-A-Phofung as well as Matjhabeng. These are large concentrations of people. This means that these housing sector plans, which become part of municipalities’ IDPs, will be able to guide the municipalities to deliver in a planned and co-ordinated manner.

If successfully implemented, which we intend to do, the plan will help a municipality to stimulate local economy, create an environment for job creation and address the needs of the aged, the disabled and HIV victims. It will help the municipalities to correct the special disparities of the apartheid era and ensure that integration and co-ordination happen between housing and other service provisions, such as infrastructural development, including roads, transport, education, health, tourism and safety and security. This is integration. This is according to our integrated development plan, which is a planning tool for all of Government.

It is important that we report on a series of steps that we are taking in the province, just like the other provinces are doing, to turn around our institutions that are intended to deliver. This is in our provincial departments, but we also happen to be responsible for turning around municipalities that are critical to delivery and there are 25 of these in our province.

In relation to the steps that we are talking about, project management is obviously one of the key areas in which we are intervening to ensure that projects are finished on time, according to specifications and following the allotted budget. We are filling posts that are strategic in order to speed up this process.

Our agreement with the National Home Builders Registration Council is to ensure that we have greater numbers of teams for quality inspections and monitoring. We are collaborating, as I said earlier on, with other national departments: the Minister’s department and DPLG, as well as the Auditor- General and other institutions that deal with maladministration and corruption.

We are capacitating municipalities to ensure that land is made available. There is bulk service and households are provided, and that all these processes are in place to help accelerate service delivery.

We are also working in collaboration with the national department, other provinces and the Cuban government. We will be working with some of their engineers and professionals who are skilled in participatory processes relating to our housing support centres. They will not only help speed up delivery, but also help with creative delivery of these services.

It is also crucial to state that of the 12 600 project-linked subsidies that we received in the previous year, 3 558 went to women-driven projects. In addition, 820 housing support centre subsidies went to women-led projects, the beneficiaries of which the majority are women in our province.

It is also crucial to say that, in fact, part of the problem of delivery relates to people who occupy land, as well as informal settlements, for which no plans existed for service delivery. And these integrated plans we are talking about are intended to get rid of informal settlements and to facilitate spatial integration of previously racially divided areas and so on.

Our capacity-building efforts are numerous. They include the People’s Housing Partnership Trust with the German technical co-operation, GTZ. But more importantly, these capacity-building initiatives also involve people who provide services to people with disabilities, such as one of our pilot projects. Over the next five years we will be giving subsidies to what used to be called the Mphatlalatsane School for the Disabled, which has adults there as well. One of our well-performing developers in the province, called Mac & George, are people with disabilities, and they are top performers.

We are also seriously considering working with municipalities to ensure that, given the requirement that they set up waiting lists, they do prioritise people with disabilities, the infirm, the aged and, of course, the indigent poor. As the process of delivery goes on, we prioritise those people who are the most needy.

As the economy grows, it will increasingly make resources available. In the meantime, our people, in many instances, understand the reason we should take this approach that we do not want to borrow excessively and, in fact, create problems for our economy.

One of the most important issues that comes across in the delivery of housing and in dealing with problems of budgets, is our manner of dealing with issues. The SA Bureau of Standards is a custodian of quality. We will be working with them to embrace and adopt their code of conduct for handling of complaints. This will enable our own departmental officials and municipalities to act, as we say, in a manner that prioritises dealing with people with dignity so that service delivery around housing is effective.

We have also come to a situation where we are now able to help attract the private sector to the rental housing area. Because we are now in a position to set up the Rental Housing Tribunal, we are inviting people to participate in its creation, in terms of the Rental Housing Act.

Many of these initiatives depend for their success on effective leadership at local government level. One of our key interventions relates to collaboration with a number of institutions, including your department, Minister, in building the capacity of municipal officials and municipal councillors to fast-track housing delivery.

In our view the housing sector plans constitute plans that, when implemented, will provide these municipal officials with a framework within which to work, in collaboration with us at provincial and national levels, in order to build their capacity.

Capacity-building, especially around leadership, will also make provision for innovative and creative use of other materials. There is a tendency towards conservative usage of traditional material and some phobia about newly created materials that can last longer and can even provide bigger and more satisfying and aesthetically pleasing systems. So we are working with municipalities to generate these kinds of capacities. The capacity of municipalities is a key component in helping to fast-track expenditure of resources allocated to us by national Government.

Another crucial point that I wanted to mention is that it is not only the housing fund allocations that have been increasing. Equitable share, which enables municipalities to provide municipal infrastructure for their own areas, has also been increased: Last year R94 million was allocated to 25 municipalities in our province and R117 million this coming year. Similarly, districts that are responsible for managing consolidated municipal infrastructure programmes had about R136 million in the previous year. This year the allocation is R160 million, and it will continue to increase.

In my view, this is a demonstration of the robustness of our policy of combining infrastructure, generally. In housing, it means building human settlements in such a way that they become dignified places where our people live, and we will be proud when we look at them, over time, and realise that these interventions have been successful …

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Hon member, your time has expired.

Mr S L TSENOLI: Thank you, Madam Chair.

Mr R M NYAKANE: Chairperson of Committees, hon Minister of Housing, MECs present here today and hon members of the NCOP, I am speaking here on behalf of the province’s MEC, Joe Maswanganyi, who could not make it owing to other commitments. This is perhaps a sign of my loyalty to my province. [Applause.]

I would like to seize this moment to thank the Minister of Housing for tabling a budget that would go a long way towards eradicating poverty and underdevelopment afflicting our poor community of Limpopo.

I think we all know that almost 70% or 80% of the Limpopo residents fall into the category of the poorest of the poor. It is for that reason we argue that the successive progressive budgets of the Department of Housing have ensured that the plight of the rural masses in the Limpopo is addressed seriously.

However, we are quite aware - of course all provinces are - that criticism being expressed in respect of the quality, space, location of these; the list goes on.

But I just want to share this observation - unfortunately Mr Raju is not around - that given the abject poverty that our poor Limpopo find themselves in, they have rather opted not to look the gift horse in the mouth. After all, a hungry stomach knows no appetite. Basically, to people on the ground that shelter stands as one of the primary human needs. And this particular area has been researched.

Who are we, poor as we are, to criticise and say that this house should be having a door this side or that this house should be having that, because in Limpopo we are definitely poor. It might be true that not all the people are really in need of the structures that are put up in Limpopo, but fortunately, the largest portion of our poor people in those areas do appreciate and commend a shelter above their heads.

The Limpopo province has focused on a number of issues in terms of this particular housing programme. For instance, in the case of hostel redevelopment, we have transformed the old hostels that were previously meant for migrant labourers into decent family units. In the past hostels destroyed the social fabric of our society by placing people far from their wives and children, and isolating hostel dwellers from the communities in which these hostels were located.

We have now completed about 1 000 units to the value of R10,7 million. In other words, we have converted those hostels into hospitable units of dwelling in which whole families are housed. We have also focused on another aspect that relates to discount benefit schemes.

You will remember that in the past Africans living in townships were not allowed to own their own house; they could only lease property. We are proud today to announce that in Limpopo, in the former Transvaal Provincial Administration towns, 645 title deeds are ready for handover to the beneficiaries, in this case the blacks.

It is not only people who live in the former TPA towns who will have ownership of these houses transferred to them. Those of you who used to live in the townships were, in terms of regulation 293, not allowed to own any property there. But let me put it on record that in Limpopo we have managed to have 111 properties transferred to people for ownership purposes. These efforts will ensure a sustainable process towards deracialisation of towns.

Sorry! Perhaps, to put it aptly so that we can understand here, we have another problem in the Northern Province, where we have what we call rural farms, such as Hoedspruit, Gravelot and Alldays farm - those who know the area. These are farm towns that are located outside big areas or big cities and which are predominantly white. We intend to move towards deracialising little towns and, of course, depoliticise and normalise them … [Interjections.] … so that they could be brought in line with the new policy or national policy.

In the 2002-03 financial year we have built approximately 13 000 houses. It is remarkable to mention that we spent almost 100% of the budget for housing development, as well as the funds received from the disaster command centre.

This particular financial year the budget at our disposal, of R345 million, will help us realise the constructing of 4 950 rural housing units. Regarding the People’s Housing Process, we have earmarked R6 million or R7 million for the building of 300 units. We also intend, as well, to upgrade almost 3 000 houses at a cost of R67 million.

We also commend the department for having increased the subsidy. This will enable us to even improve further the quality of our houses. We must expand the horizons. Indeed, the new housing procurement regime will ensure that emerging local contractors have a stake in the mainstream economy. Our budget is targeted at the empowerment of young, women and disabled developers. Out of 60 new developers we have awarded tenders to 12 women developers, 18 young developers and 4 disabled developers.

However, let me share with you the problems that we encounter in that area. We have a problem of access to land. Traditional leaders are not ready or willing to release land for development. We are also faced with the problem of service delivery. These are some of the issues that handicap progress.

In conclusion, let me reiterate that the Northern Province’s people are poor; the Limpopo people are poor, and the majority of the poor people definitely cannot afford to say: ``This house is falling apart or this house is like that.’’ After all, only a basic unit for shelter is provided and the rest is left to the householder to patch up. During the day, at least these people could get some shelter.

I am saying this because I also have an extended family whom I cannot afford to provide with a house. And, of course, most of us here do have an extended family that fall into the category of poor. So we cannot just simply and totally condemn this programme of housing. [Time expired.] [Applause.]

Dr E A CONROY: Hon Chairperson, Minister of Housing, MECs and colleagues, the saying goes that a man’s house, or a woman’s for that matter, is his or her castle. I understand that to mean that however humble or expensive a person’s protection against the elements is, that particular structure, whether it is rented or owned, is the best that he or she can afford and that it forms an important part of his or her daily life.

Your castle protects you not only against the elements, but also against animal and, sadly in our times, human predators. When the doors of these structures are closed at night, they also provide privacy for the occupants and their families.

Housing is one of the most basic needs after the needs of sustenance. That being the case, a government’s first duty to its people is to create and to provide the economic and social circumstances where everyone has food and, secondly, where everyone has a roof over his or her head. Those circumstances do not necessarily mean that government should provide the housing per se, but that the circumstances should be such that a person can provide for him or herself.

A country’s economy should also be of such a nature that in cases where people are still so poor that they cannot provide for themselves, the government will be able and willing to provide the necessary. This philosophy is perfectly in line with my party’s economic policy of a free market with a social conscience.

It is also correct and appreciated that we in South Africa have a Minister of Housing with a department whose stated aim, vision and mission it is, and I quote: ``to determine, finance, promote, co-ordinate, communicate and monitor policy in respect of housing for a nation housed in sustainable human settlements’’.

Which brings me to another and very important dimension of housing policy, namely the intensified demand for urban housing and land available for that purpose. We have already reached the point where we are exposed to intensified social and economic challenges in which sectional title ownership is expected to satisfy that demand.

However, notwithstanding the potential advantages of sectional title housing, there is little doubt that this form of co-ownership of common property and attachment to a sectional title community presents unique and difficult problems. Many of these problems arise from owners not having adapted themselves to the demands of the particular lifestyle and ignorance of the legal requirements which inevitably lead to ineffective and poor management, which in turn sets in motion a chain reaction which normally leads to problems such as absence of communal discipline, mounting body corporate debts, physical deterioration of the buildings, which eventually turn into slums, depreciation and a total loss of market value of the units and the eventual loss of the owners’ investments.

Such a spiral of deterioration does not only have catastrophic consequences for the owners concerned, but serves to promote slum conditions which tend to spread to adjoining areas. In the macro environment it leads to the undermining of the ideal of social upliftment through successful universal private home ownership.

The losers in such a scenario are, in the first instance, the owners and then, in a line of succession, the mortgagee banks which become extremely reluctant to advance loans in areas where risky schemes are situated; municipalities, which must accept large losses on rates recoveries; the immediate urban environment, because of the infectious deterioration of neighbourhoods; and, finally, the general South African population through the failure of sectional title schemes as an answer to the demand for urban housing.

Owing to historical reasons relating to the technical aspects of the surveying and registration of land, the administration of that particular legislation falls within the ambit of the Department of Land Affairs. We do not believe that the Sectional Titles Regulation Board, constituted in terms of the Sectional Titles Act, is equipped to deal with the social, administrative and management aspects of sectional title ownership.

The Board is, for the already mentioned historical reasons, comprised of persons highly trained in the registration and survey aspects, as well as representatives of banks and of the legal profession. They tend to focus on statutory amendments relating to these technical matters. Their expressed attitude is that management problems should be solved by bodies corporate internally. Unfortunately, this is not a realistic point of view and has resulted in failed urban sectional title schemes reaching endemic proportions. The stark reality is that the most important stakeholders in sectional title housing, namely the owners, have no representation on the regulation board.

It has been suggested that the Department of Trade and Industry would be an appropriate authority to assume a measure of responsibility for the administrative and social aspects of the Act. These aspects are then referred to as ``consumer matters’’. Whilst the possible contribution of DTI and its expertise in consumer affairs should not be underestimated, the success or failure of sectional titles as an urban housing solution dictates that these problems be seen in a more serious light than mere consumer matters.

For this reason we suggest that the Department of Housing should take a direct interest in what is happening in urban sectional title schemes and should assume some measure of responsibility in the effort to find solutions. The New NP supports the Housing budget. I thank you. [Applause.]

Nkul B MABASA (Gauteng): Mutshami wa xitulu, wena Manana Joyce Kgoadi, Holobye wa hina, Manana Bridgett Mabandla, Vaholobye vo huma eka Swifundhankulu hi ku hambana-hambana ka swona, swirho swa Huvo hinkwaswo, ndzi sungula hi ku amukela Mpimanyeto lowu hi nga vekeriwa wona. Hi khensa mintirho yo saseka yo endliwa hi Holobye wa tolo ku nga Manana Sankie Mthembi-Mahanyele kambe eka siku ra namunthla hi hoyozela wena Manana Bridgett Mabandla, hi ri hoyohoyo! Ha yi tiva mintirho ya wena yo saseka eka Vutshila, Sayense na thekinoloji. Ha swi tiva leswaku ku chivirika ka wena ku ta antswisa ku akiwa ka tindlu. Hi ta tinyungubyisa ku ya ku yile hi wena. (Translation of Xitsonga paragraphs follows.)

[Mr B MABASA (Gauteng): Chairperson, Mrs Joyce Kgoadi, our Minister, Mrs Brigitte Mabandla, Ministers from the different provinces, hon members of this House, let me start by expressing support for the budget allocated to us. We appreciate the good work done by former Minister Sankie Mthembi- Mahanyele, but today we also wish to congratulate our Minister, Mrs Brigitte Mabandla, and we would like to say well done!

We know all your good work under Art, Science and technology. We know that your efforts will enhance the process of building houses. We will always be proud of you.]

We understand your announcement to mean that the masses of the people of our country are being assigned another cadre with a track record in the struggle for liberation under your capable leadership in the department that I have just mentioned.

The budget speech of 19 May 2003 has given hope to many of our citizens who are still patiently waiting to benefit from many of the housing programmes Government has initiated. All ears were ready to welcome the announcement of the adjustments on housing subsidies to match the current inflation levels. Let me assure you that our people have warmly welcomed the announcement.

We understand you to be saying that for those who earn from R0-R1 500, the subsidy will rise by R2 800. But let me skip some of the figures and go right into the implications of these increases. These show that the Government remains absolutely consistent in its commitment to focus on assisting the poorest of the poor to access affordable houses.

We want to pledge our support to the Minister as she considers the possibility of lifting the income level limit from R1 500 to the highest subsidy amount of R1 794-50, which is currently defined as the minimum living wage. We welcome that. Our humble request to you, Comrade Minister, is to essentially remind those who will be assisting you on this matter that this process ought to be speeded up as much as possible.

We have noted with increased enthusiasm the reference made to the principle of integrating development planning in your speech. We share the same understanding that housing cannot and should not be seen in isolation from other developmental aspects of society. Development projects all over Gauteng have been guided by this principle, and your mentioning it in the speech will be taken as a challenge for us to review further and improve our ability to enhance an integrated approach.

This integrated approach was evident in the Alexandra Renewal Project and it will once more be evident as Kliptown tackles the same challenge. Bekkersdal will also follow suit. The regeneration of townships and cities has the potential to turn these areas into centres of economic success and uplift the human spirit. Bara Link and other initiatives are meant to integrate South Africans across the colour line, thus reversing what was created during apartheid.

The Premier of Gauteng, Comrade Mbhazima Shilowa, in his speech during the opening of the legislature, announced that currently 89 000 stands in Gauteng would be provided with water and sanitation. He further announced that 3 200 000 people will have access to water and sanitation by the end of the next financial year.

Your speech to Parliament will help us explain to our constituencies what has been accomplished in the past seven years, particularly with regard to the struggle we have waged throughout these years against poverty and joblessness. Our MEC is currently making the rounds among municipalities to find out about their problems and help address them.

One area that has been noted is that of capacity-building. Officials from both municipalities and the province have just graduated following a course at Wits. Standing committee members also attended and graduated, and I was fortunate to be one of them.

Capacitating small, emerging contractors is also taking place continually and it takes into cognisance that it is central that women and people with disabilities should benefit from that programme.

Finally, we have developed a keen interest in the decisions of the UN- HABITAT. We are also keen to show the international organisation mentioned that we have truly understood our mandate, particularly from the WSSD which we hosted last year. We will do all in our power to satisfy the needs of our communities because that is the mandate we understand better.

We wish you, Comrade Minister, a happy term of office and above all, good health so that you continue to guide us with your wisdom. [Applause.]

Mnu M A MZIZI (KwaZulu-Natali): Sihlalo, ngivumele ngithathe leli thuba lokuhalalisela uNgqongqoshe uBrigitte Mabandla ekuthatheni lesi sikhundla sokuba nguNgqongqoshe weziNdlu. Kanjalo mangivalelise noNgqongqoshe uMthembi-Mahanyele engisebenze naye kahle kakhulu esikhathini esiphambili. Mhlawumbe uma singivumela isikhathi ngisazobuya kule ndaba ukuze ngedlulise kahle ukuthi ngisebenze kanjani naye. (Translation of isiZulu paragraph follows.)

[Chairperson, allow me to take this opportunity to congratulate Minister Brigitte Mabandla on her appointment as Minister of Housing. At the same time, let me say goodbye to Minister Mthembi-Mahanyele, with whom I worked very well in the past. Perhaps, if there is enough time, I will revisit this matter and speak properly about how I worked with her.]

Housing in our country is a very complicated process that needs to be examined thoroughly and comprehensively, as millions of our people still have the problem of being homeless. The World Bank Development Report of 2003 pointed out that housing in the developing and underdeveloped world is a crucial challenge facing both society and lawmakers. Thus it is incumbent upon us to face the challenges of development in a sector that is directly associated with a well-planned and implemented delivery process.

One has to admit that there have been some advances made in this respect, but the fact remains that there are still millions of our people without shelter. There is thus a serious backlog in delivery despite the introduction of the People’s Housing Process and several other measures specifically to alleviate existing problems.

Some of the programmes in KwaZulu-Natal, for example, face serious impediments. Thus the number of allocated projects in KwaZulu-Natal in 2002- 03 has decreased to 12 compared to 30 in 2001-02. The allocated subsidies also decreased from 22 166 in 2001-02 to 10 945 in 2002-03. These figures point to a continuous backlog.

This reality is exacerbated by the shortage of land in many areas of our country, as studies at the University of Natal in 2002 have indicated. There is also a shortage of farms in the rural and semirural areas. Thus it is imperative that the associated processes of land redistribution and relocation need to become an urgent priority for the department.

However, all the ambitious and well-meaning programmes, such as the hostels redevelopment programmes, the human settlement redevelopment programmes and the removal of urban squatters cannot be achieved by the political will alone. Urgent financial resources is an urgent priority that needs to be met.

It is well-known to all of us that there are fiscal constraints and a myriad of other priorities. However, I urge the ministry and all of us to do our utmost for more funding to be allocated for housing. Our people need good quality houses for themselves and their families, especially in the rural and semirural areas where development is slower.

Mismanagement, corruption, incompetence and lack of accountability at all levels need to be fought tooth and nail in the housing department. Innovation, more funds, determination and acceleration of delivery of good houses need to be our top priorities. We cannot fail our people.

Yingakho-ke ngithi, mina uma ngibhekisa kuNgqongqoshe, noma yiliphi iqembu elingasukuma la lithi iqembu lami lenza lokhu, iqembu lami lenza lokhu, iqembu lami lizokwenza lokhu. Isekhona inkinga. Akuzukusiza-ke ukuma lapha sithi, i-ANC ayenzanga lokhu, asukume omunye athi, i-ANC yenze lokhu, nomunye asukume asho okunye. Ikhona inkinga. Ukuthi ishiywe ubani leyo nkinga akusho lutho. Abantu ngaphandle basibuka emehlweni. Ake ngisho nje ukuthi ngike ngezwa umfowethu uTsenoli ekhuluma ngezempilo. (Translation of isiZulu paragraphs follows.)

[That’s why I say to the Minister that if any party can come forward here and claim to be doing this and that, and also promise to do something in future, it means we still have a problem. It’s not going to help us to stand up here and say that the ANC did not do this while one member stands up and says the ANC did that, and another one says something else. There is a problem. It does not matter who left that problem there. People outside are looking directly at us. I heard my brother Tsenoli speak about health issues.]

Ntate, mane Foreistata moo o tswang teng … [Sir, in the Free State, where you come from …] [Time expired.]

Ms V TAMBO (KwaZulu-Natal): Chairperson, thank you for giving me this opportunity to take part in this very important budget debate.

Mangihalalisele umama wethu osiphethe kulo mNyango. Ngithi wenza kahle kakhulu, kepha-ke uthi uma kunezinkinga kwezinye izifundazwe kubonakala sengathi akucacile kahle, kanti yingxaki ekhona kuleso sifundazwe.

Kubuhlungu nje ukuthi ilungu elihloniphekile uMnu Raju usehambile. [Ubuwelewele.]

AMALUNGU AHLONIPHEKILE: Ukhona. Nangu.

Nk V TAMBO: Sihlalo, bengingambonanga ukuthi ukhona. Ngifuna ukuthi yi-ANC kuqala phambili ekwaziyo ukubhekana nokukhwabanisa nokukhohlakala. Asiyifundiswa leyo nto yinto esiyaziyo. Kodwa lokhu kuhambisana nokuthi kufuneka ukuba umsebenzi uqhubeke ngendlela eyiyo.

Into eyenzekile KwaZulu-Natali yokushintshwashintshwa koNgqongqoshe bezifundazwe isilimaze kakhulu ngoba umsebenzi namanje usamile, akubonakali okwenzekayo. Mangiqale-ke nangomcimbi. (Translation of isiZulu paragraphs follows.)

[Let me congratulate our mother who is leading us in this department. I would like to say that she is doing very well. However, she says that it’s not clear when there are problems in other provinces while in fact a problem really exists in a particular province.

It’s a pity that the hon Raju has gone. [Interjections.]

HON MEMBERS: He is here.

Ms V TAMBO: Chairperson, I was not aware that he is present. I want to say that it’s the ANC which is able to lead the fight against the embezzlement of funds and corruption. That is something that we are not taught, we simply know it. But this is linked with the fact that work must be done properly.

The reshuffling of MECs in KwaZulu-Natal did us a big disservice, because work has now come to a standstill, one cannot see what is going on. Let me now focus on the matter at hand.]

The demise of apartheid laws has unleashed a surge, in large numbers, of people from rural to urban areas and from smaller towns to large cities. That is a reality. This is an impediment to the mission of implementing effectively and efficiently the national and provincial housing programmes in partnership with the relevant role-players, and of providing adequate, affordable, quality and sustainable shelter for the citizens of our country.

We have some challenges facing the provincial departments concerning service delivery, which include, inter alia, the fact that the previously disadvantaged institutions tend to be slow and lack monitoring strategies for the quick delivery of housing, and for sustained delivery.

Our Government has done remarkably well by allocating such a big budget for housing. However, it may not be worth cheering owing to a number of issues, such as the rising demand for low-cost houses, which makes the challenge rather daunting.

The urban need for housing needs to be addressed. There needs to be integration and co-ordination in housing delivery, provision of infrastructure, and promises should be kept.

The Constitution, Act No 108 of 1996, contains guidelines for the provision of and the right of access to adequate housing. This is entrenched in the Bill of Rights, which, amongst others, facilitates appropriate devolution of functions and powers to provincial and local government. That is the importance of decentralising the provision of housing.

I would like the department to form strategic plans towards the provision of capacity, and towards development and promotion of a relevant programme for local authorities to speed up the process of delivery of housing and to continue upgrading informal settlements and clearing slum areas. I would also like the department to ensure that slum areas are located on land suitable for human settlement and to prevent the proliferation of new informal settlements. I must also mention here the challenge of provision of land for human settlement … [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr M J Mahlangu): [Inaudible.]

Ms V TAMBO (KwaZulu-Natal): … I am sorry, Mr Chairpersonÿ … and this can easily be done by ensuring integration between our housing and land reform programmes. We also need to note that the Government must … [Time expired.] [Applause.]

Mr M A SULLIMAN: Chairperson, hon MECs, members of the NCOP, it’s so late in the afternoon; I think I am not going to waste your time. [Interjections.]

The creation of a nonracial, nonsexist and democratic society was about the liberation of Africans in particular and black people in general from political and economic bondage, and the improvement of the quality of life of all South Africans, the majority of whom are African females.

Let me express a sense of appreciation to Government for prioritising poverty alleviation by reorientating the Budget, the fiscal policy and the public sector towards redistribution and meeting the basic needs of the disadvantaged and the poor. The Northern Cape Province will spend R83 million to build about 4 100 houses.

Again, this province has won three national housing awards, which indicates that the ANC-led Government is indeed achieving the goal of providing decent houses to our people. Thousands of our people who never dreamt of having shelter over their heads now do. It has been and will always be our ANC-led Government that works tirelessly to improve the living conditions of our people.

In his state of the nation address earlier this year, the President once again reconfirmed the Government’s determination to push back the frontiers of poverty and underdevelopment. This is a clarion call to all patriots in our country to forge partnerships in the battle against dehumanisation and the crushing effects of abject poverty. This was the result of social engineering deliberately pursued by the past colonial and apartheid policies.

But we also stand here today on the verge of celebrating our 10th democratic social order, an era characterised by challenges more daunting than those we encountered with the advent of our democratic order. The Reconstruction and Development Programme continues to organise, shape and influence our strategies and approaches towards the achievement of a better life for all.

Our considered conclusion is that our policies and objectives are correct, and that the attainment of these objectives has been outstanding in most individual areas, with weaknesses in a few critical areas. The answer to the call of the President finds expression in a number of programmes. Amongst other things, our province is geared towards making numerous determined interventions that will contribute to the attainment of an equitable society.

Fighting poverty and underdevelopment is the business of everybody. Sustainable economic development is about enlarging choices and raising their standard of living. However, we as the ANC acknowledge that no sphere of government can effectively meet its challenges unless all the component parts of Government operate or function in a coherent and integrated manner.

I am glad to announce to this House that the Northern Cape has created a structure known as the Northern Cape Intergovernmental Relations Council to promote co-ordination, integration and service delivery. This is assisting the province a lot because we avoid the duplication of programmes by the various departments.

The challenges that we face, for example effective and efficient service delivery to our communities, are not insurmountable and collectively, using all the resources that we have in all spheres of government, we can meet them.

Our constitutional mandate does not allow us to tolerate any negligent management whatsoever that results in run-down municipal infrastructures. And to this effect, we will ensure that the funds we vote to municipalities from our department are utilised responsibly and effectively for that particular purpose.

Considerable progress has been made in the province with regard to delivery of housing. In the past financial year about 2 082 new houses have been built under the People’s Housing Process. This has been achieved through the co-ordinated efforts of all the organisations, developments and small contractors, financial institutions, local authorities, women’s groups in housing and suppliers that have contributed to the provision of housing in our province.

An achievement that needs to be acknowledged is that for the first time, our province is in a position to regulate specific target groups such as disabled women and children, who have been incorporated into the core business of housing. We have managed to engage successfully private sector participation in the housing development process and to ensure that the housing market is extended to the middle-income target groups. The base for the rental housing market has been increased through the awarding of two pilot institutional projects. One has been awarded in Kathu, securing public sector investment form Imperial Bank, Sishen Iron Ore Mine and Lakutshona Housing Company. For the first phase, 500 subsidies have been allocated. A second project was awarded in Kimberley and is a joint venture involving the department, Standard Bank, the Sol Plaatjie Housing Company and Sida.

It is intended that another 3 683 houses will be delivered this financial year, using the funds that were allocated to our province. I am pleased to say that the introduction of tender procedures, for example, Preferential Procurement Guidelines, in housing development processes has received attention this year.

The new housing allocation has been awarded to municipalities, and workshops have been held with them to outline the new processes. This process is going to fast-track the unfinished projects that we have been complaining about and get rid of the fly-by-night contractors who rip us off for huge amounts in our provinces.

Furthermore, the national Departments of Land Affairs and Housing took a joint position on the utilisation of the housing subsidy programmes by beneficiaries of land restitution claims and are still engaged in trying to perfect the integration of these programmes. This programme will certainly place beneficiaries in a better financial position to build bigger houses.

This budget must realise the functioning of the Rental Housing Tribunal Committee that has been appointed this year to advise the executive authority on strategic housing matters. The Housing allocation in this dispensation needs to take another angle.

The policies of the ANC state categorically that the Housing allocation should bring occupants nearer to their workplace, but the opposite is the case. If one looks at all the RDP houses, one finds that they are far away from the Central Business District. What are the effects of this? The reason I am raising this is that we need to relook our municipal ID programmes and make sure that we have an integrated development programme at local level.

For example, parents are compelled to leave some of their houses as early as 4:30 in the dark hours of the morning. They leave their children unattended and these children become care-givers to their young siblings. The parents are not there to give guidance to their children. As a result, you will find many drop-outs because these parents are not aware that their kids are no longer attending school.

Economically it also becomes burdensome because in some cases parents must take more than two buses to get to their workplaces and spend perhaps a third or half of their wages on transport. We need an integrated approach when we deliver services to our people.

The ANC’s mandate of pushing back the frontiers of poverty is a reality that needs to be maintained, and with that approach our country will really alleviate poverty for many South Africans. Women’s participation is crucial. Over the next three years we in the province have allocated a non- negotiable portion of the budget, that is 10%, for women’s empowerment.

It is a fact that when you educate a woman, you educate a nation. We would have not been here now had it not been for women’s contribution. Hence in whatever we are doing, be it provincially or nationally, women need to benefit and be our priority.

This commitment of improving the lives of our people needs to be practised across the spectrum. Housing subsidies for the disabled is also increasing over the next three years. This is a sign that we are alleviating poverty because with these projects we are creating jobs at the same time. Thank you very much, Chairperson.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Order! Hon member, I regret that your speaking time had expired. Hon members told me that you added the last paragraph when you saw me in the Chair. [Laughter.]

Ms N E HANGANA (Western Cape): Hon Chairperson, Minister of Housing, hon Brigitte Mabandla, members of the House as well as all other MECs who are present today, it is an honour to be in your presence again. A very good afternoon to all of you. I want to say, before I make my contribution to this debate, that I am very impressed with the new look of the Chamber. It is absolutely stunning; it is beautiful.

The Western Cape has reached a stage where there is complete stability, after the formation of the coalition between the NNP and the ANC. We no longer have spooks in our offices who spy on people. We are also busy with a people’s budget, where moneys given to this province go to where they are needed, to the poor of this country. We are very proud to say that we walk with our heads held high now that our people are being given attention in this province, for the first time.

Since its inception in 1994, the new national housing programme has delivered some shelter and basic services to some 5 million people. The provincial department of the Western Cape has delivered over 170 000 houses, thereby providing shelter to approximately 350 000 poor families. Although our achievements have been recognised nationally and internationally, there is still room for improvement.

To ensure a shift from quantity to quality in respect of housing delivery, my department has already embarked on the implementation of the Housing Consumers Protection Measures Act, which is aimed at enforcing the registration of all home builders involved in subsidised housing with the National Home Builders Registration Council. My department has in this regard signed a memorandum of understanding with the National Home Builders Registration Council. Mechanisms to streamline the process are currently being developed.

I now come to the delays in the handing over of subsidy houses. My province is also affected by delays in the handing over of subsidy houses. One of the projects that are mainly affected by this problem is the Crossroads Housing Development Project, which is part of the presidential urban renewal project, popularly known as the Integrated Serviced Land Project.

What is happening in Crossroads is basically political interference, generally in development and in housing in particular, which has had adverse consequences for delivery to poor people. It is sad … [Interjections.] … This resulted from your interference. I am still going to get you at the provincial legislature. [Laughter.] It is sad that in the end it is the poor people who suffer the most.

In addition, this problem has financial implications for Government. This relates to unbudgeted security costs, the costs of repairing vandalised houses and the costs incurred by extending the project’s contract.

There are a number of projects that were initiated some years ago that are still incomplete, largely as a result of escalating building costs. The approved top structures could no longer be provided from the originally approved subsidy amount. A mechanism has now been put in place whereby such blocked projects can be resuscitated. My department will be contacting all municipalities where projects have ground to a halt and will be putting measures in place to ensure that these projects are completed.

With reference to the financial plan for 2003-04, my department has the following objectives, contained within our strategic plan: to allocate funds to 30 municipalities; to process and approve 10 000 project-linked subsidies, 1 500 individual credit-linked subsidies, 2 000 People’s Housing Process subsidies, 3 000 consolidation subsidies, 1 000 institutional subsidies, 400 relocation subsidies, 100 rural subsidies and 1 000 savings- linked subsidies; to process payment in respect of three hostels and emergency assistance.

Let me now address the major challenges facing my department. The major challenges facing my department that account for the lack of delivery in general and underexpenditure in particular include … But, fortunately, this financial year I’ve spent about 92% of my budget. So it’s not that bad in the Western Cape.

While the requirement that beneficiaries should contribute R2 479 as a prerequisite for accessing housing subsidies, we contribute significantly towards ensuring the development of quality houses as well as promoting self-reliance amongst the beneficiaries. Lack of mechanisms and systems for the collection of the contribution has contributed to the problem of underexpenditure. The heads of housing are presently addressing this matter. The implementation of the NHBRC also contributes to underspending by provinces.

The challenge facing us is building the capacity of provincial and municipal officials and of councillors in housing, and focusing on practical and sustainable capacity-building initiatives for beneficiaries. In this regard, my department is at present providing project management skills and monitoring its support to municipalities, especially the smaller municipalities.

In the past four months I’ve also visited a number of municipalities within the province to establish their delivery constraints and challenges. My department is now developing a comprehensive strategy to support municipalities struggling with capacity problems.

It is a challenge to obtain affordable, suitable land for housing close to transport nodes and economic opportunities. The high cost of suitable land for housing has always been and still continues to be a challenge. This is being addressed, and I hope I’ll be able to come back with good news concerning this matter in the near future. A number of audits have been conducted in this regard. All we need to do is consolidate these audits to integrate housing development with other service providers such as schools, clinics, créches and other forms of infrastructure which cannot be provided from housing funds.

I now come to housing contribution to black economic empowerment. Housing development has always had a direct impact on economic empowerment in that housing delivery creates jobs for the formal as well as informal housing sectors. Most, if not all, housing projects are subcontracted to emerging contractors. Relying on the big contractors for the development of the emerging ones is not enough. It takes emerging contractors long, if not forever, to be able to stand on their own feet. This is the reason my department will be focusing on sustainable capacity-building of emerging contractors and women in construction within the next financial year as part of its strategic objectives.

Having carefully studied housing, I discovered a number of things. I discovered that housing delivery is slow and as such struggles to keep up with the demand. I’ve also realised that the housing delivery process itself is riddled with quite a number of problems. But, most importantly, I’ve realised that I cannot do it on my own. Frankly, one always needs that extra help. [Interjections.] From the DA.

In response to my discovery, I have appointed consultants to help me formulate my 2014 vision document called Accelerated Housing Delivery Strategy''. The emphasis of this strategy is on partnerships with all role- players in housing. At the indaba that my department hosted on 23 April 2003, the Housing Partnership Council was formed and will help me identify and tackle, as a collective, I might add, blockages in housing delivery. It is only when we work as a collective that we stand a chance against the forever increasing housing backlog in the Western Cape, which at the present moment stands at 320 000 houses. Lastly, speaking of wanting assistance from the DA, their posters are all over the Western Cape, that say:Deploy 150 000 police in the streets of Cape Town.’’ In fact, it should read: ``Yes, deploy 150 000 police in the streets of Cape Town, but they will be paid by the DA.’’ [Laughter.] [Applause.]

Nk B THOMPSON: Ngiyabonga Sihlalo. Amalungu ahloniphekile, uQabane uBrigitte, namanxusa. Ngizothatha nje ithuba elincane ngithi kuRaju ngoba ngiyazi kungenzeka ukuthi akazi ukuthi indaba uma isisezithebeni zenkantolo ayibe isaxoxwa kule ndlu. Ngiyazi ukuthi awukwazi lokho. Ngikufundisile-ke namhlanje okuncane. (Translation of isiZulu paragraph follows.)

[Ms B THOMSON: Thank you, Chairperson. Hon members, Comrade Brigitte and special delegates, I will take this small opportunity to inform hon Raju, because I know that he might not know that once the issue has been referred to court, it is no longer discussed in this House. I know that he does not know that, so I have now given him a small lesson.]

Let me begin by paying tribute to former Minister Comrade Sankie and also to Comrade Dumisani Makhaya, who is now the MEC for Agriculture in KwaZulu- Natal.

Kukhona iculo lesintu elithi: Zingaba buhlungu zonke izinto kodwa hhayi njengokuswela indawo yokulala.'' [There is an African song that goes: Things can be bad, but not so bad that one has no place to sleep.’’]

Every sphere of government has an important role to play in ensuring that those in need are housed. The core function of the Department of Housing is to provide a framework within which to guide local municipalities in the development of housing.

The duty of Parliament is to oversee the implementation of Government policy. To date our Government has contributed R19 billion to just under 1,5 million low-cost housing opportunities. In playing this role the Government is guided by the understanding that housing delivery must contribute to the improvement the of the social and economic conditions of our people living in slums, rural areas and informal settlements.

Simethulela isigqoko uhulumeni kaKhongolose okwazi ukuqonda ukuthi empeleni ukhona umehluko phakathi kwezilwane nabantu. Siyavumelana futhi nalabo abathi zincane lezi zindlu. Siyavumelana futhi nalabo abathi izindlu ezakhiwa uhulumeni wethu zincane. Kodwa esikushoyo sithi yebo zincane kodwa kulabo abazidingayo azizincane. Futhi sithi abanikazi balezi zindlu abakhokhi ntela kumuntu. Futhi sithi bona bayazithokozela ngoba akekho uhulumeni owake wabanika ezinkulu ngaphambilini. (Translation of isiZulu paragraph follows.)

[We congratulate the ANC-led Government for being able to understand that there is a difference between a human being and an animal. We agree with those people who say that the houses that our Government is providing are small. We say yes, they are small, but they are not small to those who need them. We are also saying that the owners of these houses pay no taxes on these houses, and that they enjoy these houses because no government has given them any houses before.]

Roll-overs in the Department of Housing are a matter of concern, but one does appreciate the decrease across provinces, between 1995-96 and 2000-01, from R2,2 billion to R519 million. The amount of roll-overs was R458 million in 2001-02 and it is expected to increase to R885 million of the total Housing allocation in 2002-03. Out of the total of the roll-over amount, R240 million is unspent funds from the Job Summit Rental Housing Programme involving Gauteng, KwaZulu-Natal and Mpumalanga.

As Government we believe in quality rather than quantity. Hence all houses built under the low-cost schemes are registered with the National Home Builders Registration Council, whose duty is that of quality control. This council provides beneficiaries with warranty protection against defects in new homes and against any failure of builders to comply with their obligations in terms of the Housing Consumers Protection Measures Act. To this end, the council has the big responsibility to ensure that service providers do not provide low-quality houses to our people.

We also take note of the housing institutions in place, as we do understand that sustainable low-cost housing needs a joint effort between Government and the private sector. These housing institutions are some of the strategies used to encourage private sector participation in low-cost housing finance.

These include the Rural Housing Loan Fund, the SA Housing Trust, the Service Housing Solution, Thubelitsha homes, the National Housing Finance Corporation and the National Urban Reconstruction and Housing Agency. All these agencies are a means of making sure that our people have access to sustainable, low-cost housing.

In conclusion, we wish our Minister Comrade Brigitte success in her new task. We also say to the Director-General, Ms Mpumi Nxumalo and the hard- working staff of the department: ``The sky is the limit.’’ Thank you. [Applause.]

The MINISTER OF HOUSING: Chairperson, let me begin by saying thank you very much for the warm welcome as this is my first appearance before this House as Minister of Housing. And also, thank you for supporting the budget.

Let me share with you my thoughts since I got into this post. It’s one of great hope and, in this context, let me say to the colleagues, the MECs, that I’ve had two MinMecs already, and resulting from the deliberations at MinMecs and from the issues we are handling - all the issues that you have raised here - there are in fact work in progress. In midterm, through the portfolio committee and other relevant structures, we will report on progress in the various areas.

I would also like to thank all the MECs for inviting me to the provinces for site visits. I have managed to visit five provinces, and these are the Eastern Cape, Limpopo, Gauteng, Western Cape and Mpumalanga. And I must say, once more, that what I saw there was also very encouraging. I do think though that we are indeed challenged in the area of housing finance. My sense is that we would need to work in a dedicated manner, together, to address those particular challenges.

I would then like to turn to specific questions that were raised here. Firstly, concerning the one that was raised by Mr Raju on corruption, let me just say that this is the context in which the department in January 2002 appointed a task team to investigate alleged corruption cases in housing. The task team submitted a report in November, which was subsequently handed over to the Office of the Director of Public Prosecutions for further processing and conclusion of the cases. The investigations have so far resulted in arrests and, you know, a number of those arrests have occurred in various provinces throughout the country.

But I also just want to say that the provincial MECs and the provincial departments are also committed to the eradication of any form of incompetency, because most of these cases have largely to do with incompetency rather than with corruption; but indeed also with corruption.

And I must confirm that it was indeed my department - and, again, credit to the previous Minister of Housing - together with the respective provincial departments, the National Prosecuting Authority and other state organs, that established a framework for ensuring that corruption, maladministration and theft are eradicated. And I am sure that in due course we will pronounce more on this, because this is also an area which is work in progress.

I now come to the question raised by the hon member Mr Windvoël, relating to the Fiscal Review Report. I would like to say in that regard that this was based on media projections, but also that we had the privilege of looking at this matter further in our last MinMec of 16 April.

I can say here that in fact the roll-overs amount to 25%. We are concerned, of course, and we would like to improve this figure. But I must say, again, that if one looks at the whole issue of roll-overs over the past three years, there is an improvement annually. And that says that the systems are beginning to yield positive results.

With regard to the issue raised on sectional titles, the Department of Provincial and Local Government is currently drafting a Bill. This issue is very important in that context and we think that it will address the particular problem that he raised.

Let me also take this opportunity to thank my department. Indeed, comrade, you are right: These are very committed and hard-working officials. I thank you. [Applause.]

Debate concluded.

CONSIDERATION OF REPORT OF SELECT COMMITTEE ON SECURITY AND CONSTITUTIONAL AFFAIRS - NOTICE IN TERMS OF INTERIM RATIONALISATION OF JURISDICTION OF HIGH COURTS ACT, 2001

Mr L G LEVER: Chairperson, the notice, which is the subject of the select committee’s report, is brought before this House in terms of the Interim Rationalisation of Jurisdiction of High Courts Act, Act No 41 of 2001. The need for this legislation arose out of the anomalies and inequities that remain with us from the attempt to implement the ill-conceived homeland policy of the former NP government. There are a number of anomalies and inequities, the most glaring of which require the citizens of Thaba-Nchu to travel to Mafikeng to have access to a High Court when there is a High Court in Bloemfontein, which they could access much more conveniently.

The legislation provides for interim solutions to provide for greater equity and efficiencies in access to High Courts. This does not mean that any of the role-players have lost sight of the need to implement a long- term policy. The legislation provides that the hon Minister of Justice and Constitutional Development may publish a notice in the Government Gazette altering the jurisdiction of a High Court after consultation with the Judicial Services Commission.

In the case of the notice before us, the hon Minister went on to approach the respective Judges President to take the initiative. The Judges President formed task teams to consider the relevant issues. The task teams were guided by the following criteria: Access to justice, utilisation of resources, constitutional imperatives, availability of resources, suitability of areas of jurisdiction, financial implications and disparities in the old demarcation system.

This process may have taken some time, but was well worthwhile because all the relevant issues have received due and proper consideration and a high degree of consensus was achieved. After the task teams completed their investigations they made proposals to the hon Minister. Thereafter the hon Minister consulted the Judicial Services Commission who accepted the proposals with only one minor amendment.

I think it is important that I briefly list the affected areas. The Free State Provincial Division will gain Thaba-Nchu; the Bophuthatswana High Court will lose Thaba-Nchu and gain Vryburg, Lichtenburg, Coligny, Zeerust, Groot-Marico, Swartruggens, Koster, Rustenburg and Delareyville; the Cape of Good Hope Provincial Division will lose Willowmore, Namaqualand, Williston, Sutherland, Calvinia and Fraserberg; the Eastern Cape Division will gain Willowmore and lose Noupoort, Colesberg and Hanover; the Northern Cape Division will gain Namaqualand, Williston, Sutherland, Calvinia, Fraserberg, Noupoort, Colesberg, Hanover, and will lose Vryburg; the Transvaal Provincial Division will lose Lichtenberg, Coligny, Zeerust, Groot-Marico, Swartruggens, Koster, Rustenburg and Delareyville.

The select committee supports and agrees with the motivation of the hon Minister and respectfully urges this House to support the amendments proposed by the Minister. [Applause.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Order! That concludes the debate. I shall now put the question. The question is that the report be adopted. The decision is dealt with in terms of Section 65 of the Constitution. I note that delegation heads are present in the Chamber to cast the votes of their provinces.

In accordance with Rule 71, I shall first allow provinces an opportunity to make a declaration of vote, if they wish. Is there any province wishing to make a declaration of vote?

Mr M A MZIZI (KwaZulu-Natal): Chairperson, on a point of order: Unfortunately this is probably the first time that some of us have heard of this report. We did not have an opportunity to take a good look at it to see the shortfalls and shortcomings of it. I do not know whether my colleagues, the permanent delegates, had such an opportunity. It is the first time that I hear of it.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Order! Could the permanent delegates of KwaZulu-Natal indicate whether they have participated in deliberations on this matter. The decision is dealt with in terms of Section 65, but we are dealing with a Section 75 functional area, given that it is justice that we are deliberating upon. Is there any member of the province who has participated?

Prince N E ZULU: Sihlalo, bengiyingxenye yazo zonke lezi zingxoxo zokwamukela lo mbiko. Siwesekela ngakho konke esinakho. [Chairperson, I have participated in all the discussions leading to the adoption of this report. We support it without reservation.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Order! There you have the reply. Given that there are no provinces wishing to make a declaration of vote, we shall therefore proceed to voting on the question. This will be done in aphabetical order per province. Delegation heads should please indicate to the Chair whether they vote in favour, against or abstain from voting. The Eastern Cape? Ms B N DLULANE: IMpuma Koloni iyaxhasa. [Eastern Cape supports.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Free State?

Mr T S SETONA: Free State supports.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Gauteng?

Mr B MABASO: Gauteng ya seketela. [Gauteng supports.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: KwaZulu-Natal?

Ms B THOMSON: KwaZulu-Natal ya seketela. [KwaZulu-Natal supports.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Limpopo? The Limpopo province? I think the member has forgotten the name of his province. [Laughter.]

Mr I MAKOELA: I’m not used to having my turn so early, Chair. Re ae amogela. [We accept it.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Mpumalanga?

Ms M P THEMBA: IMpumalanga iyawusekela. [Mpumalanga supports.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Northern Cape?

Mr M A SULLIMAN: Northern Cape supports.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: North West?

Mr Z S KOLWENI: North West ke wa rona. [North West supports.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Western Cape? Western Cape? The Western Cape? [Interjections.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: The Western Cape therefore abstains. Eight provinces have voted in favour. I therefore declare the report adopted. [Applause.]

Perhaps before we rise I should indicate to the special delegates from the provinces that the Constitution is very clear with respect to how we deal with Bills, but it is less certain and guiding in terms of how we deal with other pieces of work such as the interim arrangement we have been deliberating upon now, which is a procedure that is to be gazetted. The Constitution mandates the National Council to decide in terms of section 65 whenever it is a matter other than matters that fall within sections 75(1) and 76(2) procedures. Hence the provincial participation.

That concludes the business of the day. The House is adjourned.

The Council adjourned at 18:04. ____

            ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS

                       WEDNESDAY, 21 MAY 2003

ANNOUNCEMENTS:

National Council of Provinces:

1. Messages from National Assembly to National Council of Provinces in respect of Bills passed by Assembly and transmitted to Council:

 (1)    Bill passed by National Assembly on 21 May 2003 and  transmitted
     for concurrence:


     (i)     Exchange Control Amnesty and  Amendment  of  Taxation  Laws
          Bill [B 26 - 2003] (National Assembly - sec 77).


     The Bill has been referred to the Select Committee  on  Finance  of
     the National Council of Provinces.

TABLINGS:

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces:

Papers:

1. The Minister of Finance:

 (1)    Report of the Executive Officer of the Financial Services  Board
     on the Road Accident Fund - combined 8th Report for  2000-2001  and
     9th Report for 2001-2002.


 (2)    Government Proclamation No R 16 published in Government  Gazette
     No  24967  dated  7  March  2003:  Commencement  of  Revenue   Laws
     Amendment Act, 1999 (Act No 53 of 1999).

National Council of Provinces:

1. The Chairperson:

 (a)    Correspondence from the Office of the MEC for Local  Government,
     Traffic Control and Traffic Safety, Mpumalanga in terms of  section
     106(3) of the Local Government: Municipal Systems  Act,  2000  (Act
     No 32 of 2000).


     Reports relating  to  investigations  conducted  in  the  following
     municipalities:


     (1)     Lekwa;
     (2)     Delmas;
     (3)     Msukaligwa.


     Referred  to  the  Select  Committee  on   Local   Government   and
     Administration for consideration and report.


     Copies of correspondence available from  the  Office  of  Clerk  of
     Papers.


 (b)    Response from the  Minister  for  Safety  and  Security  on  the
     resolution of the House adopted on 25 February 2003.


     Copies of response available from the Office of Clerk of Papers.

                        THURSDAY, 22 MAY 2003

ANNOUNCEMENTS:

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces:

1. Translations of Bills submitted:

 (1)    The Minister of Finance:


     (i)      Wetsontwerp  op  die  Herroeping  van  die  Wet   op   die
             Bophuthatswana Nasionale Voorsieningsfonds [W  13  -  2003]
             (National Assembly - sec 75).


     This  is  the  official   translation   into   Afrikaans   of   the
     Bophuthatswana National Provident Fund Act  Repeal  Bill  [B  13  -
     2003] (National Assembly - sec 75).


     (ii)    Wetsontwerp op die Herroeping van die Wet op die  Sefalana-
             werknemersvoordele-organisasie  [W  14  -  2003]  (National
             Assembly - sec 75).


     This is the official translation into  Afrikaans  of  the  Sefalana
     Employee Benefits Organisation  Act  Repeal  Bill  [B  14  -  2003]
     (National Assembly - sec 75).
     (iii)   Bankwysigingswetsontwerp [W 15 - 2003]  (National  Assembly
             - sec 75).


     This is the  official  translation  into  Afrikaans  of  the  Banks
     Amendment Bill [B 15 - 2003] (National Assembly - sec 75).

1. Draft Bills submitted in terms of Joint Rule 159:

 (1)    The Acting Minister of Transport on 4 April 2003  submitted  the
     following Bills:


     (i)     National Road Traffic Amendment Bill, 2003
     (ii)    National Road Traffic Second Amendment Bill, 2003
     (iii)   Road Traffic Amendment Bill, 2003


     Referred to the Portfolio Committee on  Transport  and  the  Select
     Committee on Public Services.

TABLINGS: National Assembly and National Council of Provinces:

Papers:

1. The Minister of Finance:

 (a)    Exemption in terms of section 74 of the  Financial  Intelligence
     Centre Act, 2001 (Act No 38 of  2001)  and  Explanatory  Memorandum
     thereto.


 (b)    Government Notice No R 552 published in  Government  Gazette  No
     24770  dated  25  April   2003:   Exchange   Control   Regulations:
     Cancellation of appointment of  an  authorised  dealer  in  foreign
     exchange: African Merchant Bank Limited in terms  of  the  Currency
     and Exchanges Act, 1933 (Act No 9 of 1933).


 (c)    Government Notice No 616  published  in  Government  Gazette  No
     24834 dated 30 April 2003: Allocations made  to  the  provinces  in
     terms of section 7 of the Division of Revenue Act, 2003 (Act  No  7
     of 2003).


 (d)    Government Notice No 605  published  in  Government  Gazette  No
     24830 dated 30 April 2003: Transfers to local government  in  terms
     of the Division of Revenue Act, 2003 (Act No 7 of 2003).


 (e)    Government Notice No 606  published  in  Government  Gazette  No
     24833  dated  30  April  2003:  Statement  of  the   National   and
     Provincial   Governments'   revenue,   expenditure   and   national
     borrowing as at 31 March  2003  in  terms  of  the  Public  Finance
     Management Act, 1999 (Act No 1 of 1999)  and  Division  of  Revenue
     Act, 2002 (Act No 5 of 2002).

1. The Minister of Correctional Services:

 (a)    Report of the Judicial Inspectorate on Prisons and Prisoners for
     2002-2003 [RP 41-2003].
 (b)    Strategic Plan of the Department of  Correctional  Services  for
     2003-2006.

                        TUESDAY, 27 MAY 2003

ANNOUNCEMENTS:

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces:

1. Translations of Bills submitted:

 (1)    The Minister of Finance:


     (i)      Wetsontwerp  op  Deviesebeheeramnestie  en  Wysiging   van
          Belastingwette  [W 26 - 2003] (National Assembly - sec 77).


     This is the official translation into  Afrikaans  of  the  Exchange
     Control Amnesty and Amendment of Taxation Laws Bill [B 26  -  2003]
     (National Assembly - sec 77).

National Council of Provinces:

1. Referrals to committees of tabled papers:

 (1)    The following papers are referred to  the  Select  Committee  on
     Finance:


     (a)     Report of the Executive Officer of the  Financial  Services
          Board on the Road Accident Fund - combined 8th Report for 2000-
          2001 and 9th Report for 2001-2002.


     (b)      Exemption  in  terms  of  section  74  of  the   Financial
          Intelligence  Centre  Act,  2001  (Act  No  38  of  2001)  and
          Explanatory Memorandum thereto.


     (c)     Government Notice No R 552 published in Government  Gazette
          No 24770 dated 25 April 2003:  Exchange  Control  Regulations:
          Cancellation of appointment of an authorised dealer in foreign
          exchange: African  Merchant  Bank  Limited  in  terms  of  the
          Currency and Exchanges Act, 1933 (Act No 9 of 1933).


     (d)     Government Notice No 616 published  in  Government  Gazette
          No  24834  dated  30  April  2003:  Allocations  made  to  the
          provinces in terms of section 7 of  the  Division  of  Revenue
          Act, 2003 (Act No 7 of 2003).


     (e)     Government Notice No 605 published  in  Government  Gazette
          No 24830 dated 30 April 2003: Transfers to local government in
          terms of the Division of Revenue Act, 2003 (Act No 7 of 2003).


     (f)     Government Notice No 606 published  in  Government  Gazette
          No 24833 dated 30 April 2003: Statement of  the  National  and
          Provincial  Governments'  revenue,  expenditure  and  national
          borrowing as at 31 March 2003 in terms of the  Public  Finance
          Management Act, 1999 (Act  No  1  of  1999)  and  Division  of
          Revenue Act, 2002 (Act No 5 of 2002).


 (2)    The following papers are referred to  the  Select  Committee  on
     Security and Constitutional Affairs:


     (a)      Report  of  the  Judicial  Inspectorate  on  Prisons   and
          Prisoners for 2002-2003 [RP 41-2003].


     (b)     Strategic Plan of the Department of  Correctional  Services
          for 2003-2006.

TABLINGS:

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces:

Papers:

1. The Minister of Labour:

 Preliminary Annual Report of the Department of Labour for 2002-2003 [RP
 44-2003].

National Council of Provinces:

1. The Chairperson:

 The Economic Impact of Legalised Gambling in South Africa.


 Referred to the Select Committee on Economic and Foreign Affairs.

COMMITTEE REPORTS:

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces:

1. Report of the Joint Committee on Ethics and Members’ Interests on the Consideration of the Complaint against Minister M G P Lekota, dated 22 May 2003: Present:

 Mr L T Landers - Chairperson


 National Assembly:


 Cronin, JP (ANC)  Gxowa, NB (ANC)  Jassat, EE (ANC)
 Njobe, MAA (ANC)  Radebe, BA (ANC)             September, RR (ANC)
 Shilubana, TP (ANC)     Solomon, G (ANC) Moorcroft, EK (DA)
 Maluleke, D (DA)  Ditshetelo, PHK (UCDP)


 National Council of Provinces:


 Kgoali, J (ANC)   Kolweni, Z (ANC) Lubidla, EN (ANC)
 Nkuna, C (ANC)    Gouws, E (DA)    Ackermann, C (New NP)


 Staff:


 Ms F Mahomed (Registrar), Ms Z Adhikarie (Parliamentary  Law  Advisor),
 Ms F Isaacs and Ms T Mbona.


 Background


 On 15 May 2003, the Office of  the  Registrar  received  correspondence
 from Minister Lekota in which he tendered an apology to Parliament  for
 his non-disclosure of financial interests. The letter also gave details
 of his interests in BZL Petroleum CC 1169 and BZL Petroleum CC 1209.


 On 16 May 2003, the Mail and Guardian newspaper published an article on
 the non-disclosure of  financial  interests  by  Minister  Lekota.  The
 article refers to non-disclosure of BZL Petroleum as well  as  Minister
 Lekota's directorship in both Landzicht and Griekwaland-Wes  Koöperasie
 (GWK).


 On the same day Minister Lekota submitted  details  pertaining  to  his
 directorships of Landzicht and GWK. Minister Lekota explained  that  he
 acquired his directorship of GWK in October 2002 and therefore in terms
 of the rules is only required to disclose it in the 2003 disclosure.


 Mr D M Gibson, MP, submitted a complaint on 16 May 2003  regarding  the
 Minister's non-disclosure.


 On 16 May 2003 the Minister was advised of the complaint, and asked  to
 furnish full details of his interests.


 Minister Lekota's disclosure
 The Minister complied with the request to  disclose  and  provided  the
 following additions to his existing disclosures:


 1999
 Residential property - Bloemfontien
 Residential property - Westville
 Directorship - Mokolla Investments
 Trustee - Braam Fischer Board of Trustees
 2000
 Residential Property - Bloemfontein
 Residential Property - Westville
 Directorship - Mokolla Investment
 Trustee - Braam Fischer Board of trustees
 Member of Grey College School Governing Body


 2001
 Residential Property - Bloemfontein
 Residential Property - Westville
 Directorship - Mokolla Investment
 Directorship - Landzicht Winery
 Shares - BZL Petroleum 1169 CC
 Trustee - Braam Fischer Board of trustees
 Member of Grey College School Governing Body


 2002
 Residential Property - Bloemfontein
 Residential Property - Westville
 Directorship - Mokolla Investment
 Directorship - Landzicht Winery
 Shares - BZL Petroleum 1169 CC
 Trustee - Braam Fischer Board of trustees
 Member of Grey College School Governing Body
 The Minister's directorships as forwarded were found to  be  consistent
 with search results of the Department of Trade  and  Industry  -  CIPRO
 Website.


 Breaches of the Code
 Item 16 of the Code of Conduct stipulates that a  member  breaches  the
 Code if the member -


     (a)     Contravenes or fails to comply  with  a  provision  of  the
          Code,
     (b)     When disclosing registrable  interests,  wilfully  provides
          the Registrar with incorrect or misleading details.


 Consideration of the complaint
 Minister Lekota has publicly conceded that he  has  not  disclosed  the
 aforementioned interests. A hearing is not required because  the  facts
 are not in dispute.  However,  the  Committee  must  establish  whether
 Minister Lekota's non-disclosure was due to negligence  or  whether  he
 intended to wilfully mislead the Committee.


 Item 3.3 of the Procedure for the Investigation  of  Complaints  allow,
 "in each case the committee has the discretion regarding the weight  to
 be attached to different forms of evidence..."


 The Committee agreed that it  must  make  a  finding  of  willful  non-
 disclosure if it is found that the Minister or his family,  friends  or
 associates improperly benefitted financially or otherwise from his non-
 disclosure. The Committee must assess whether the non-disclosure  arose
 to conceal a conflict of interest.


 In terms of the criteria outlined above, consideration must be given to
 the Mail and Guardian's  analysis  of  the  conflict  of  interests  in
 respect of this matter. The report states that "Lekota's involvement in
 the businesses raise serious conflict of interests questions as  Lekota
 is in the position to use his influence and has  access  to  privileged
 information that could advance his business interests."  The  newspaper
 continues, " the fact that BZL is a distribution agency of  Caltex  and
 the fact that Lekota is  a  shareholder  of  BZL  arguably  brings  him
 uncomfortably close to the petroleum giant. In this case  the  conflict
 of interest arises from the fact that Lekota sits in  Cabinet  meetings
 that make decisions that affect fuel companies".


 With the information at hand  it  is  the  Committee's  view  that  the
 newspaper does not make a case that  there  is  a  direct  conflict  of
 interest. Further there  is  no  evidence  before  the  Committee  that
 indicate that the Minister had benefitted  financially  from  his  non-
 disclosure. At most it could be said that the Minister's interest could
 create a perception of a potential conflict of interest.


 The Mail and Guardian continues, "Landzicht is a  regular  supplier  of
 wines to the Free State Government." The article also states Trade  and
 Investment South Africa paid 80% of  Landzicht's  exhibitions  held  in
 Thailand, Beijing and Uganda.


 In respect of the  Minister's  interests  in  Landzicht,  details  were
 obtained from Trade and Investment South Africa (TISA) on  the  funding
 of the exhibitions. They (TISA) have indicated that Minister Lekota was
 at no stage directly involved in dealing  with  any  application.  They
 have only a record of the exhibition in Uganda.


 Minister Lekota's Address to the Committee
 The Minister at the outset apologised for his failure to  disclose.  He
 conceded that he erred in not forwarding full details of his disclosure
 and accepts that he failed to abide with the requirements of the Code.


 In respect of  the  Minister's  non-disclosure  of  his  residences  in
 Westville and Bloemfontein, he stated that these are private residences
 and that no business activity was conducted from these premises.


 In respect of shares in BZL 1169 CC, the Minister indicated that he had
 at no time  drawn  any  benefit  and  advised  that  the  business  has
 undergone liquidation. The Minister is credited with a dividend and has
 not drawn it to date.


 In respect of BZL 1209, the Minister has a 5% share at a nominal  value
 of R5. The Minister has indicated that the company value  is  difficult
 to determine, but is not likely  to  be  significant.  He  received  no
 remuneration or benefit to date and has now  tendered  his  resignation
 from BZL Petroleum.


 With regard to Landzicht, the Minister  has  partially  disclosed  this
 interest, including the wine farm in Jacobsdal. He received no  payment
 from Landzicht. The Minister has indicated that there is no contract to
 supply wine to the government of the  Free  State  as  alleged  in  the
 newspaper report.


 Griekwaland-Wes Koöperasie (GWK)
 The Minister was invited  to  serve  as  a  non-executive  director  in
 October 2002, as such he would only be required to  disclose  in  2003.
 The Minister did not receive any benefits. He tendered his  resignation
 to GWK.


 Mokolla Investments
 The Minister indicated that this is a dormant  company  and  has  never
 traded.


 Braam Fischer Board of Trustees
 This is a trust to assist rural children; he derives  no  benefit  from
 this.


 Grey School Governing Body
 The Minister does not derive any benefits from this body.


 Based on the information at its disposal, the Committee is of the  view
 that the Minister's failure to disclose  was  negligent,  but  did  not
 intend to wilfully mislead the Committee.


 Recommendations
 The Joint Committee makes the finding that:


     -  Minister Lekota failed to comply  with  the  provisions  of  the
          Code of Conduct with regard to financial interests;
     -  Minister Lekota was negligent in making  incomplete  disclosures
          of his interests;
     -  However, that there was no evidence that the  Minister  wilfully
          withheld information with the intention to mislead Parliament;
          and
     -  Therefore, sanctions his negligence.


 In terms of the provisions of the Code the Joint  Committee  on  Ethics
 and  Members'  Interests  recommends  to  the  National  Assembly   the
 following sanctions:


     (i)     a written  reprimand  from  the  Speaker  of  the  National
              Assembly; and
     (ii)    a fine which is the  equivalent  of  one  week's  (7  days)
              salary.


 In making these recommendations, the  Joint  Committee  on  Ethics  and
 Members' Interests wishes to emphasise that Members  of  Parliament  as
 elected public representatives have an obligation to be transparent and
 must take the provisions of the Code seriously.


 The  Committee  noted  the  promptness  with  which   Minister   Lekota
 responded, his own admission of a casualness in regard  to  disclosure,
 and his co-operative demeanour.


 The Committee was unanimous in its findings.


 Adopted unanimously by the Committee on 27 May 2003.


 Report to be considered.

1. Report of the Joint Monitoring Committee on Improvement of Quality of Life and Status of Children, Youth and Disabled Persons on Filling of Vacancies on National Youth Commission, dated 27 May 2003: The Joint Monitoring Committee on Improvement of Quality of Life and Status of Children, Youth and Disabled Persons, having considered the request from the Minister in The Presidency regarding the appointment of Commissioners to serve on the National Youth Commission, referred to it, reports as follows:

 1.     Advertisements were placed in the printed and  electronic  media
     from 2 to 17 April 2003, and the Committee received 72  nominations
     (15 females, 53 males and four disabled persons).  On  20  May  the
     Committee shortlisted the following nominees for interviews:


     Jabu Mbalula, Daniël van Vuuren, Nketu Matime,  Petronella  Linders
     (visually  impaired),  Cameron  Tabane,  Lebogang  Maile,   Vuyiswa
     Tulelo-Rathebe, Anele Matoti, Simon Zwane  (paraplegic),  Sthembele
     Peter (epilepsy) and Mpande Cele.


     On 22 May, a day before  the  interviews  were  scheduled  to  take
     place, Mpande Cele  withdrew  his  nomination,  and  the  Committee
     therefore ultimately interviewed 10 candidates.
 2.     On 23 May, the Committee spent five hours interviewing the  said
     10 candidates. The  principle  of  concurrence  with  the  National
     Council of Provinces, and the terms of reference  as  contained  in
     the National Youth Commission Act, 1996, (Act No. 19 of  1996),  as
     well as the appointment of five full-time commissioners, were  duly
     taken into account during the entire process.


 3.     The Committee accordingly recommends, in accordance with section
     4 of the National Youth Commission Act,  1996,  that  the  National
     Assembly and  the  National  Council  of  Provinces  recommend  the
     following five candidates for consideration by the  President  when
     appointing  five  full-time   members   to   the   National   Youth
     Commission:


     Jabu Mbalula
     Daniël van Vuuren
     Nketu Matime
     Petronella Linders
     Vuyiswa Tulelo-Rathebe.
 Report to be considered.

National Council of Provinces:

1. Report of the Select Committee on Finance on the Exchange Control Amnesty and Amendment of Taxation Laws Bill [B 26 - 2003] (National Assembly - sec 77), dated 27 May 2003:

   The Select Committee on Finance, having considered the subject of the Exchange Control Amnesty and Amendment of Taxation Laws Bill [B 26 - 2003] (National Assembly - sec 77), referred to it, reports that it has agreed to the Bill.