National Assembly - 19 June 2003
THURSDAY, 19 JUNE 2003 __
PROCEEDINGS OF THE NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
____
The House met at 14:02.
The Speaker took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayers or meditation.
ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS - see col 000.
APPROPRIATION BILL
Resumption of debate on Vote No 1 - The Presidency:
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Madam Speaker and hon members, first of all I’d like to thank you for your good wishes on the occasion of my birthday yesterday. In this regard, I’d also like to express the resolve of all of us in Government, the resolve that we share, that as long as we are charged with the responsibilities we carry as the national Government of our country, we will continue to use all our energies honestly to serve the people of South Africa to the best of our abilities.
In this regard I would agree fully with the hon Dr Mangosuthu Buthelezi that -
… our people need the full measure of attention which our Government can give to them and we hope that the Presidency will be able to provide its tested and strong leadership to move the country forward on the path of development at a much faster pace and on the basis of a vision which allows us to draw value from being Africans born and bred in the unique country of South Africa.
I’m certain that the occasion of the debates on the various Budget Votes of the various departments gave this House the opportunity to assess whether the Government is responding to this call to give our people the full measure of attention they need.
Yesterday and at other times in the past, in this House and elsewhere, we have sought to emphasise the fact that indeed the Government has decided to pay particular attention to the effective implementation of the policies we have adopted. We are doing this and we will continue to do so.
The hon Mr Ditshetelo said our effectiveness in this regard is compromised by the fact, as he put it, that -
… we simply think he is preoccupied …
That is, the President -
… with issues that are hundreds of miles away from home. We say charity begins at home … The perception among ordinary South Africans is that our President does not care nor has the time to listen to their cries. This is a reality we cannot simply ignore, it is informed by our people’s daily experiences.
I’m afraid I do not agree. Obviously the hon member and I talk to different South Africans. [Applause.] But beyond this we will continue to be preoccupied with issues that are hundreds of miles away from home. I’m certain that we have no choice in this matter, unless we decide to extricate ourselves from the process of globalisation, lose interest in the development of the rest of our continent and -abandon a value system that has characterised our struggle and movement for national liberation for many decades - a value system informed by international and human solidarity, the solidarity that played such an important part in our national effort to end the system of apartheid.
South Africa is linked to the rest of Africa and the world at large in many ways. We are not a small village stuck away in the middle of nowhere which the world passes by and which does not even know that the rest of the world exists. We do not support the notion that our country can develop and emerge as a winning nation on the basis of its isolation from the rest of the world. The issues that are hundreds of miles away from home, to which the hon member refers, are very directly relevant to whether we succeed in the effort to transform ourselves into a winning nation.
It may also be that some among us are unaware of the value that many in the world attach to the contribution of our country and people to the solution of the problems that confront humanity as a whole. Apart from anything else, this makes it necessary for all our people, and not just the Government, to respond to this high international level of confidence in our country’s capacity to contribute something valuable to the improvement of the human condition.
It would be incorrect to walk away from this obligation and uncharacteristic of us as a people that is very conscious of the inner sense of the concept of Ubuntu and the oneness of all humanity. We should not build a Chinese Wall between what is domestic and what is foreign and present a false dichotomy between what is done at home and what we do abroad. Immediately we cannot separate our destiny from the destiny of the rest of our continent.
At the same time, we understand fully that we can best contribute to a successful African Renaissance if we succeed in the task of the reconstruction and development of our own country. Indeed, it is precisely because of the advances we are making in this regard that so many in Africa and the rest of the world value our country’s participation in the global effort to confront the common challenges.
The hon Dr Pieter Mulder said:
According to some political commentators, two factors are causing all the problems in Africa: diversity and a refusal to tolerate dissent.
I can think of other reasons for all the problems in Africa, poverty and underdevelopment being central among them, which, among other things, lead to an intense struggle for limited resources. But, of course, I’m not a political commentator. [Laughter.]
Nevertheless we fully recognise the importance of diversity and tolerance of dissent in the overall process to transform both our country and the rest of our continent. Other hon members also correctly drew attention to the important issue of the diversity that characterises our country and sought to suggest what we should do to respond to it, respecting the necessary diversity of views in this regard.
But I believe that an important starting point in this regard is the approach taken by such hon members as Renier Schoeman and Annelizé van Wyk, among others. As hon members will recall, the hon Renier Schoeman said:
While being mindful of and sensitive to the pain and suffering and conflict of the past, and even of the present, I can, irrespective of my own past, play my full role in every way I can, to help build a South Africa that is caring and worthwhile and a better place for all its people … I must not only be proudly South African but I must also want this country to succeed and to play its rightful role in our continent … I must be part of an individual and a collective effort to actually make it succeed.
The hon Annelizé van Wyk said:
I believe that the challenge now is to live for our country … South Africa and her people need us now. It needs all our talents, our commitment, our love and passion. We need to live for our country. We need to live for South Africa. That is the highest sacrifice we can now make.
I believe that if we heed the advice of these hon members, we will be able to do what the hon Cassie Aucamp pledged his party to do, to play its part positively to address our challenges and solve our problems. The difficulties we face were highlighted in an article that appeared in one of the weekend newspapers this past Sunday. In this article, Prof Amanda Gouws, head of the political studies department at the University of Stellenbosch, discusses the attitudes of students at Stellenbosch to the challenge of national reconciliation. Among other things, she says:
What do we say to white students who claim they are too young to be responsible for apartheid injustices?
I hear this regularly in my politics classes. For many black students of the same age, the wounds of apartheid still hurt, but because they are in a minority in the classroom, the debate about reconciliation is always uneven and acrimonious.
Collective guilt is difficult to explain to students who do not want to engage with apartheid history any more. They believe reconciliation is a ``feel-good concept’’. They think the truth came out during the TRC process, that victims have forgiven the perpetrators and that we now all live happily ever after.
To them the socioeconomic dimension of reconciliation smacks of reverse discrimination where they have to ``pay the price for political decisions they were not involved in’’.
We have not yet moved beyond the politics of the past where we can have open debates about the past and where students can formulate their own position on reconciliation. Transformation is still viewed as something ``imposed from above’’ …
The problem is that the university is still the host'' welcomingthe
other’’ to an institutional culture where minority students have to
accept the rules of an existing culture. Thus group politics, as they
were in the past, remain the prevailing strategy.
Interests are therefore defined in racial terms and not across racial boundaries. … Students have not progressed beyond the us/them divide - clearly because white and black students do not share the same interests and have not developed a collective voice. Reconciliation is the status quo.
A consequence of this perception of reconciliation is that white students can remain passive - they have to do nothing to change the status quo - while black students have to be politically engaged to change it …
Thus the challenge remains: How can reconciliation be brought down to the grass-roots level?
I have quoted Prof Gouws at some length because of the important matters she raises. I am convinced that all those among us who are genuinely interested in national reconciliation, ready to respond to the challenges our country faces in the manner suggested by the hon members Renier Schoeman, Annelizé van Wyk, Cassie Aucamp and others, should study Prof Gouws’s honest and frank observations with great attention.
Those of us who care to know the truth, as she has sought to establish it, know that what she describes is not peculiar to the University of Stellenbosch or merely to students. It describes a situation that continues to prevail throughout our society. Indeed, I have heard the sentiments espoused by the students expressed in this very House with great passion and conviction. I must confess that I also liberally quoted Prof Gouws because if I or others had made the same observations as she does, we would have been accused of playing the race card, as the saying goes … [Applause.] … signalling that those we seek to address have decided to close their ears and minds to what we seek to communicate.
This matter came up even yesterday. For example, the hon Tony Leon said:
But it is on President Mbeki’s watch that South Africa has moved from the politics of the rainbow nation and reconciliation to the politics of race- labelling and race-baiting.
And as Prof Gouws said:
Reconciliation is the status quo. A consequence of this perception of reconciliation is that white students can remain passive - they have to do nothing to change the status quo - while black students have to be politically engaged to change it …
[Applause.] Thus the challenge remains: How can reconciliation be brought down to the grass-roots level?
And I would add, ``including the parliamentary grass roots’’. [Applause.]
The struggle against racism will be with us for a long time. This is because the racist legacy of colonialism and apartheid will be with us for a long time. Neither I nor any other member of Government draws any joy from this reality.
We who have known racism for countless generations would shout in great jubilation if one day it could be said that the scourge of racism in our country and the world is no more. When we speak of racism and racial stereotypes we do so because we know the hurt caused to those who are the victims of racism.
As long as we suffer this hurt, so long will we continue to fight to defeat that which hurts millions. There are some among us who are keen that we should say nothing about the hurt we feel. They treat our continuing struggle against racism both as the very denial of national reconciliation and as a deceitful political manoeuvre to achieve short-term partisan political gains.
When we speak of the hurt that affects millions, a few tell us that we are neither entitled to feel such hurt nor allowed to state what we feel. My advice to these is that they should desist from telling us what to feel, to think and to say. [Applause.] I’d like to advise them that we fought for our liberation precisely because we refused that anybody should tell us what to feel, to think and to say. [Applause.]
We did not achieve liberation in order to perpetuate a master-servant relationship in our country. In this regard, let me make this matter clear once and for all … [Interjections.] … there is nobody in our country … [Interjections.]
The SPEAKER: Order! Order! [Interjections.]
The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: In this regard, Madam Speaker, let me make this matter very clear once and for all, there is nobody in our country or anywhere in the world who is going to stop us from confronting the cancer of racism and continuing the struggle to build a nonracial South Africa. [Interjections.] [Applause.]
There is nobody in our country or anywhere else in the world who will succeed in convincing us that what we should feel, think and say is what they tell us to feel, think and say. [Applause.] The repeated charge that we are playing the so-called race card is not going to deter us from continuing the struggle to defeat racism. [Applause.]
Between me and some of my white compatriots there is a great divide, a chasm, on the issue of racism, in the manner described by Prof Amanda Gouws. They do not like any reference to the issue of racism, perhaps because they want to forget the past. On the other hand, we neither want to nor will forget the past.
These white compatriots argue that to advance national reconciliation, we must end the struggle against racism. We disagree. Persisting racism and racial disparities in our country constitute an obstacle to the achievement of the goal of national reconciliation.
Precisely because we seek and value national reconciliation, we will continue the struggle against racism. I’ve even heard it said that the transformation process in which we are engaged is inimical to the goal of national reconciliation.
Even Madiba’s name is dragooned into this argument. Thus he is presented as the great proponent of a process of national reconciliation consisting of a rainbow nation, minus the central element of transformation to which Prof Gouws referred when she wrote: ``Reconciliation is the status quo’’.
The white compatriots to whom I have referred say that apartheid is a thing of the past, and that to refer to it is to pull the country backwards. We disagree. Any denial of the past and its impact on the present would make it impossible for us to focus on the real problems facing our people, which are problems arising from the legacy of colonialism and apartheid.
These white compatriots accuse us of racism when we talk about racism and expect us to heed what they are saying. When they speak of racism, shifting the blame onto the victim, they expect that we should keep quiet even as they give themselves the right to speak. In other words, they communicate the direct message that they have a right to set the national agenda and we have a duty to accept that agenda.
Prof Gouws has said that in the classrooms of Stellenbosch, ``the debate about reconciliation is always uneven and acrimonious’’. In the context of the situation we have sought to describe, this debate will be uneven and acrimonious in this House and elsewhere in our country as long as the situation persists that some among us treat the views of those who know what racism means with disdain and do not heed the call made by the hon Dr Pieter Mulder for all of us to tolerate divergent views. [Interjections.]
Fortunately, there are many in our country, both black and white, who understand very well that reconciliation is not just a ``feel-good concept’’, that the finalisation of the work of the TRC did not end the need to strive for reconciliation, that reconciliation is not, and cannot be, the status quo. This was demonstrated yesterday in the important statements made in this House on this matter by both black and white members of Parliament. It was illustrated by the presence in the House of the young people, both black and white - the great achievers who yearn for the new and reconciled South Africa, born out of the process of transformation.
It is on these South Africans that our country will continue to depend for the success of the twin processes of transformation and national reconciliation. Accordingly, I would answer the question that Prof Gouws posed by saying that reconciliation is being brought down to grass-roots level!
Perhaps the question we should ask is: What more should we do to speed up the process of ensuring that national reconciliation reaches more of our people, resulting in the engagement of our challenges in the manner indicated by the hon members Renier Schoeman, Annelizé van Wyk and Cassie Aucamp?
It seems clear to me that there are some in our country who are not ready to respond to the call made by these hon members, who neither accept that our country must go through a process of fundamental transformation nor see a role for themselves as active and conscious participants in the historic process to achieve true national reconciliation among our people.
However loud their voices, we should not treat them as though they constitute the determining factor with regard to the future of our country, because they are not. We should leave them to go their merry way to fish to their hearts’ content for corrupt men.
Today 90 years ago, the then parliament of our country passed the 1913 Land
Act. As the hon Manie Schoeman said yesterday, it is right that we
continue to focus on this contentious issue'' of land, which he correctly
described as anemotional issue’’.
While agreeing with the hon Manie Schoeman that we need to move forward faster, we can say without hesitation that we have made a good beginning as we continue to focus on this contentious matter. Of great importance is the fact that our country has not been torn apart in a violent conflict to address the land issue, even though the process of land dispossession through the centuries was accompanied by unequalled violence.
That we have moved forward as peacefully as we have is a tribute to all our people, including the white farmers. If we need any example to show what we as South Africans, both black and white, can do to transform our country, heal the wounds of the past and achieve national reconciliation, we need look no further.
The overwhelming majority of hon members and parties that spoke yesterday conveyed a message of hope about the future of our country and people. I am certain that the masses of our people were inspired to hear those voices of hope, as we were. For this I would like to thank the hon members very sincerely. We will continue to study their statements to see how we should respond to the many suggestions that were made.
However, I should also make the point that it is less than becoming that some hon members abuse the privilege of being members of this House by spreading falsehoods, as did the hon Rev Meshoe when he spoke about an entirely nonexistent ``attempt by Government to remove Christmas and Good Friday from our calendar’’, to use his words. [Interjections.]
The hon Manie Schoeman ended his statement with the following words:
We are privileged to live in this wonderful country at this point in our history. Like the proverbial rocket, ready to be launched into space, the countdown has begun - in fact, we are already in the lift-off phase. Black and white are taking hands to ensure the success of our mission. Indeed, success is assured.
I thank you. [Applause.]
Debate concluded.
SUSPENSION OF RULE 110 (2)(b)
(Draft Resolution)
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Madam Speaker, I move the motion printed in my name on the Order Paper, as follows:
That the House suspends Rule 110(2)(b) in regard to the week of 23 to 27 June 2003 in order to enable the Deputy President to answer Questions in both the National Assembly and the National Council of Provinces during the same week.
Agreed to.
CONDOLENCES ON DEATH OF LEADING SPORTS ADMINISTRATOR
(Member's Statement)
Ms H M MPAKA (ANC): Madam Speaker, the ANC is saddened by the news of the untimely passing away of a leading sports administrator Kididimetse Tshoma, who died on Tuesday 18 June 2003, after suffering a stroke. Kididimetse’s involvement in South Africa’s sports movement stretches as far back as
- She served South African sport in various capacities, including amongst others being President of the Soweto Cricket Club, chairperson of the women’s committee of Safa, chairperson of the Sports and Recreation Distribution Agency of the National Lottery Trust Fund, executive member of the National Sports Council and Nocsa Women’s Commission.
This former educator, a recipient of the Presidential Sports Award will also be remembered for her selfless efforts at securing and distributing sports equipment in previously disadvantaged communities. The ANC expresses its heartfelt condolences to her family and friends. [Applause.]
BY-ELECTIONS IN STELLENBOSCH
(Member's Statement)
Mnr F J VAN DEVENTER (DA): Geagte Adjunkspeaker, die uitslag in die twee tussenverkiesings op 18 Junie 2003 in Stellenbosch is ‘n sprekende bewys dat die kiesers hulle nie deur die ANC gaan laat intimideer om sy koalisievennoot, die Nuwe NP, kunsmatig aan die lewe te hou nie. Met sy oorwinning in Wyk 5 waar die DA 62,4% stemme gekry het en sy buitengewone goeie vertoning in Wyk 12, waar die DA met slegs vier stemme teen die ANC verloor het en die Nuwe NP gerieflik geklop het, het die DA hom verder gevestig as groeiende alternatief vir die ANC. [Tussenwerpsels.]
Tweedens bevestig dit die kiesers se ondubbelsinnige keuse vir ‘n lewenskragtige veelpartydemokrasie bo ‘n gemanipuleerde skoothonddemokrasie soos wat hulle gebied word deur die ANC-Nuwe NP-koalisie. Dié koalisie se blufspel kan nie langer ten koste van waardevolle veelpartydemokrasie geduld word nie. Die DA bedank die kiesers van Stellenbosch vir hulle oordeelkundige ondersteuning en is oortuig daarvan dat kiesers oor die hele Suid-Afrika dieselfde standpunt huldig. [Applous.] (Translation of Afrikaans member’s statement follows.)
[Mr F J VAN DEVENTER (DA): Hon Deputy Speaker, the results of the two by- elections which took place in Stellenbosch on 18 June 2003, are striking proof that the voters will not allow themselves to be intimidated by the ANC to keep its coalition partner, the New NP, artificially alive. With its victory in Ward 5, where the DA polled 62,4% of the votes, and its exceptionally good showing in Ward 12, where the DA only lost to the ANC by four votes and comfortably defeated the New NP, the DA further established itself as a growing alternative to the ANC. [Interjections.]
Secondly, this confirms the voters’ unequivocal preference for a vigorous multiparty democracy rather than a manipulated lapdog democracy, which is what they are offered by the ANC-New NP coalition. The posturing of the coalition can no longer be tolerated at the expense of valuable multiparty democracy. The DA thanks the voters of Stellenbosch for their discerning support, and is convinced that voters throughout South Africa hold the same point of view. [Applause.]]
WOMAN GANG-RAPED FOR AIDS CURE
(Member's Statement)
Dr R RABINOWITZ (IFP): Madam Deputy Speaker, a few weeks ago a woman was raped throughout the night by six men who told her she would cure them of Aids. A week later no one in the library or corridors of Parliament I approached had even heard of the incident. What does this say about our response to this barbarous, distorted truth that flourishes concerning Aids, making young women statistics in the spate of gang rapes.
The IFP proposes that the President, Deputy President, Minister of Health and Sanec take off their blindfold and respond to the pleas of all those calling for a fundamental change in Government’s approach to Aids. We must remove the element of secrecy and shame, stop anonymous testing, make testing free and expand its scope, tell people their results, counsel those who are positive and offer them treatment, introduce a law that gives rapists a different reality from the madness we appear to shrug off. We must make it easier to prosecute those who transmit HIV or do not disclose their true status to a sex partner. Current legislation is too costly and ineffectual.
If Government fails to make these changes and continues with business as usual, they are abandoning a generation that should be on the spaceship that the President has just referred to, as being ready for take off.
ANC BY-ELECTION VICTORIES
(Member's Statement)
Ms C M P RAMOTSAMAI (ANC): The ANC victories in Ward 10 in Grabouw and in Ward 12 in Stellenbosch yesterday mark a major turning point in the political landscape in the Western Cape.
The ANC unseated the DA in a ward which was previously dominated by that party and thereby broke the historic stronghold of the DA rightwing tendency in Stellenbosch. The ANC victory in this by-election follows the ANC national conference in December, which was held a few months ago. This is a demonstration of how much the people of Stellenbosch have taken the ANC to their hearts and feel comfortable with ANC democratic programmes and transformation and reconciliation.
The DA on the other hand has suffered a severe backlash from the community which clearly distances itself from reactionary policies, which fundamentally divide black and white people and merely serve and advance alienation and polarisation between the different races in our country. Viva Stellenbosch! Viva! [Applause.]
STELLENBOSCH BY-ELECTION RESULT
(Member's Statement)
Mr J DURAND (New NP): Madam Speaker, yesterday’s by-election in Stellenbosch has proved that the New NP and ANC are a formidable force, supported by two thirds of the voters. This result also shows that people support the co-operation between the New NP and the ANC. The Western Cape success story based on co-operative governance speaks for itself, and people have seen that together we can make South Africa work. [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order! Hon members.
Mr J DURAND: It is however a pity that some voters are still victims of the DA’s `swartgevaar’ tactics. It is also ironic that yesterday during the discussion of the President’s Vote the DA chose to accuse President Mbeki of playing the race card, while the DA’s whole campaign is based on spurring on black fear. The DA uses the Zimbabwean crisis as a smoke screen to incite racial fears.
In their reckless scramble for votes, the DA shows no understanding of the racial balances in South Africa. As Alister Sparks remarked when he referred to the hon Leon:
Leon by contrast is essentially eurocentric, with not an ounce of empathetic sensitivity to traditional African ways of debate and conflict resolution.
In the December 2000 local government elections, when the New NP was a partner of the DA, the DA won both wards. Yesterday’s by-election, in which the DA lost one of its wards, shows that the New NP is reclaiming its support base while the DA supporters have started to abandon the party. [Applause.]
BOY'S KILLERS STILL FREE
(Member's Statement)
Ms N C NKABINDE (UDM): Deputy Speaker, the UDM is shocked by reports that the two former Bophuthatswana policemen who were convicted of the murder of a 14-year old boy five years ago are still walking about free. It is simply unacceptable that the family of this boy, who had to deal with the suffering of burying a young child following indiscriminate violence by members of the police force, should now suffer again under a criminal justice system that fails to imprison the convicted murderers.
It is these types of incidents that lead to the perception in many communities that the criminal justice system favours the criminals instead of the victims. We condemn the evasion and passing of the buck between the SAPS, the Directorate of Public Prosecutions and the High Court. An immediate investigation must be launched and those responsible for this thoughtless bureaucracy must be severely disciplined. The two convicted murderers must be arrested immediately and thrown in jail where they belong.
CHILD SUPPORT GRANT
(Member's Statement)
Ms N M TSHOLE (ANC): Deputy Speaker, the ANC notes with great concern the press reports that only a fifth of orphans are able to access foster care grants. The ANC remains committed to the protection of all children in South Africa and wishes to stress that our Government has put in place processes to finalise comprehensive children’s legislation which will address these problems.
The new Children’s Bill aims to put in place a system of cluster care whereby children in child-headed households would be able to access grants under the supervision of, for example, responsible community or faith-based organisations. The proposed cluster care system would have many benefits in that it would ensure that the poorest and most vulnerable children would have access to grants whilst providing the necessary adult supervision and accountability as well as keeping them together as a family. I thank you. Your child is my child. [Applause.]
REMEMBERING THE FORGOTTEN HEROES OF 16 JUNE
(Member's Statement)
Mrs M A SEECO (UCDP): Madam Deputy Speaker, as we celebrate June as youth month, we are constantly reminded about the forgotten heroes and heroines of the 16 June uprising. There is no doubt that they acted as a catalyst for change in this country. Less is heard about these individuals or young people, who participated directly in the liberation of our country.
This discriminatory approach has raised serious concerns about the selective manner in which the democratic Government has sought to honour those who are perceived to be closer to the ruling party in terms of ideology as opposed to those who hold different political viewpoints. A case in point is the manner in which youth leaders such as Tsietsi Mashinini, Kgotso Siatlholo and others are being ignored and not are not being honoured. We believe that the Government is morally and politically obliged to honour these individuals in the manner in which the likes of Hector Peterson are remembered and given prominence.
JOB OPPORTUNITIES CREATED BY PHYSICALLY DISABLED MAN
(Member's Statement)
Mr P J NEFOLOVHODWE (Azapo): Madam Deputy Speaker, it is encouraging to note that a physically impaired former factory worker from North West has created 11 permanent jobs for local residents. Mr Obed Sikgoa aged 43, a father of two, is confined to a wheelchair after being shot three times on the night of 2 June 1994. Reportedly the gunmen were never found.
When I came out of hospital he started a small business venture producing protective clothing. His clients include Gauteng Public Works, Johannesburg City Parks, the national Department of Agriculture, Brits Town Council, Ikageng Clinic Services and the North West Technikon.
Azapo wishes to congratulate Mr Obed Sikgoa and his clients, as well as the Job Creation Trust administered by the Development Bank for advancing a loan of R250 000 to Mr Sikgoa. [Applause.]
FREE BASIC EDUCATION
(Member's Statement)
Ms S K MNUMZANA (ANC): Madam Deputy Speaker, in the recent past, the review of the financing and cost of education, underwent intense scrutiny through wide public participation. On 11 June 2003, Cabinet accepted an action plan emanating therefrom. These measures are aimed at ensuring that children from poor households have access to education. At the heart of such initiatives, is the ANC’s vision of realising our stated objectives of free basic education for all, as expressed in the Freedom Charter.
Re le maloko a ANC, re amohela kgweletso ya Mong Kader Asmal, Letona la tsa Thuto, mabapi le tshehetso eo a e fileng bana ba tswang mahaeng a hlokang, ba fumanehileng, ya thuto e feletseng e lefellwang ke Mmuso. Hona ho tla etsa hore bana ba fumanehileng ba fumane thuto e feletseng jwalo ka ba barui.
Re leboha Kabinete ka moo e qadileng ka teng ka thuto eo ya bohlokwa, mme re le baetapele, re re ho bana ha ho lefa le fetang thuto. Ke a leboha. [Ditlatse.] (Translation of Sotho paragraphs follows.)
[We, as members of the ANC, accept the plea made by Mr Kader Asmal, the Minister of Education, in connection with the support he gave to children from needy families, who are poor, by offering them education that is fully paid for by Government. This will afford poor children an education that is as complete as that of children from rich homes.
We thank the Cabinet for beginning with that important education, and we, as leaders, say to the children that there is no greater inheritance than education. Thank you. [Applause.]]
FAILURE OF PRESIDENT TO CLARIFY JIT REPORT
(Member's Statement)
Ms R TALJAARD (DA): Madam Deputy Speaker, yesterday the President was asked to clarify the details of the Auditor-General’s section 46 consultation with the executive on the Joint Investigating Team Report. His failure to give any explanation for his actions and to account for them and/or his omissions as chair of the Cabinet subcommittee that dealt with the arms deal, or alternatively to address any of the questions raised, is a supreme failure of executive accountability to this House and shows a sheer and complete arrogance of power in this administration. All the President had to say was that he did not ask the Auditor-General to alter the JIT Report. He did not do so. All he had to do was to account to this House if he did not suggest any alterations. He did not do so. His silence and failure to clear up the matter, are a cause for profound regret and a disgrace to this House. [Interjections.][Applause.]
ZIMBABWEAN ECONOMIC CRISIS
(Member's Statement)
Mr B W DLAMINI (IFP): Madam Deputy Speaker, it is reported in the media that the National Constitutional Assembly and Transparency International, which are Zimbabwean civic groups, are planning to block South African goods from entering Zimbabwe because of their alleged anger at South Africa’s percieved damning silence on the arrest of MDC leadership.
These groupings are said to have assumed that South Africa’s silence on this matter amounts to the South African Government’s support for the clampdown on the MDC leadership. It is also reported that Concerned Citizens Abroad, another civic organisation based in South Africa, was now planning to travel to Musina to forcefully shut down the Zimbabwe/South Africa border.
Whether the anger and frustration of these civic organisations are justified or not, trading between these two countries is in the interest of both countries, even more so of Zimbabweans. The blockage will also be working against the spirit of Nepad.
The Zimbabwean economy has been affected by the political situation. We therefore urge all stakeholders and relevant bodies to intensify their efforts towards finding a solution to the Zimbabwean crisis. CHILDREN IN PRISONS
(Member's Statement)
Mr D V BLOEM (ANC): Madam Speaker, it is with great relief that the ANC welcomes the Grahamstown High Court ruling on the immediate release of 25 children who have been in jail for up to four years. These children were imprisoned while waiting to serve sentences in nonexistent reform schools. Of major concern, is that the Eastern Cape has only one place of safety for children in Port Elizabeth which can only accommodate 58 children. This then hampers the process of carrying out court referrals of children to places of safety.
It is believed that imprisonment of young offenders with other prisoners merely perpetuates the criminal cycle with young offenders being integrated into a life of crime. This minimises the possibility of young persons being rehabilitated and becoming responsible citizens upon release.
Young offenders do not belong in prison. We need to prioritise and strengthen youth correctional facilities and diversionary means of sentencing.
SANDF TROOPS IN THE DRC
(Member's Statement)
Mr J SCHIPPERS (New NP): Madam Speaker, the New NP is concerned about media reports that indicate that the South African Military Health Service is not providing the SANDF troops in the DRC with adequate medical support and that we are not adhering to UN guidelines. It was also alleged that soldiers who are HIV-positive, were deployed to the DRC. This is a matter of concern because if it is proved to be true, it means that South Africa did not adhere to UN guidelines which state that the entire South African contingency must undergo testing for HIV/Aids and other serious illnesses before departure.
The shortage and absence of vital medical equipment is also unacceptable. We cannot send our troops on peacekeeping missions if we cannot guarantee that they will receive adequate medical attention. The New NP demands an investigation into this matter to ensure that it does not happen again and that we adhere to UN guidelines in future.
ELECTION VICTORY IN THE FREE STATE
(Member's Statement)
Mong S L DITHEBE (ANC): Motlatsi wa Sebui, re boletse ra re tang-tang e tla kgwangwa ke lerole, ha nako ya dikgetho e atamela. Etswe ha ho poho pedi Foreisetata, poho ke ANC mme bopaki bo hlahetse mane Bultfontein Phahameng, dikgethong tsa Ward 2. Moo, ANC e hatisitse PAC masepa-namane ka ho e hlola dikgethong tseo ka diperesente tsa divouto tse 92. Nkgetheng wa ANC e ne ele Mme Tshidi Matlakala. Re hlotse dikgetho tsena tsa tlatsetso hobane bakgethi ba dumela hore. (Translation of Sotho paragraph follows.)
[Mr S L DITHEBE (ANC): Deputy Speaker, we did say that when the elections approached, things would be hectic. We know that in the Free State the ANC is the champion. This became evident during the elections in Ward 2, in Bultfontein, Phahameng. This is where the PAC was totally defeated by the ANC with 92% of the votes. Mrs Tshidi Matlakala was the candidate for the ANC. We won these by-elections because people believe that …]
… we must speed up change and fight poverty. Re boetse ra hapa Ward masepaleng wa Tokologo ntle le phephetso. Hona empa e le pontsho ya hore bakgethi ba Foreisetata ba se ntse ba le malala-a- laotswe bakeng sa dikgetho tsa 2004. (Translation of Sotho paragraph follows)
[We also succeeded in winning a ward in the Tokologo municipality unopposed. This is just an indication that the voters in the Free State are ready for the 2004 elections.]
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order! Hon members, we are not here to display posters. We should rather listen to the statement.
Mong S L DITHEBE: Hona empe ele pontsho ya hore bakgethi ba Foreisetata ba se ntse ba le malala-a-laotswe bakeng sa dikgetho tse tlang tsa 2004. Mme re re rea leboha batho ba Phahameng le Tokologo. [Ditlatse.] (Translation of Sotho paragraph follows.)
[Mr S L DITHEBE: This is just an indication that the voters in the Free State are ready for the 2004 elections. We therefore would like to thank the people of Phahameng and Tokologo. [Applause.]]
FREE BASIC EDUCATION
(Minister's Response)
The MINISTER OF EDUCATION: Madam Speaker, I would like to thank the hon Mnumzana for her statement on behalf of the ANC following the Government- organised review of the financing, resourcing and cost of education. May I say that this is the most far-reaching study undertaken in our country. It is part of the whole drive towards removing poverty, particularly in education, with the relationship of poverty and education so clear that the real emancipation of young children depends on them getting quality education.
Therefore, the issue of the cost of education is not limited to school fees, but covers a whole range of other matters which we call nonpersonal expenditure. The active discrimination against children in poor and richer provinces can no longer be countenanced in a democracy. This report also looks at the cost of uniforms and the status of transport for young people.
In conclusion, we will do our utmost to ensure that the implementation of the action plan takes place. Of course this will depend on working very closely with the provinces in establishing the kind of capacity they have and to ensure that based on the assessment we make, the poorest schools should get the benefit of this Government concession. Of course this cannot be implemented tomorrow. We have to take into account the identification of needs and working with the provinces to ensure that the moneys are made available.
Beyond that, we wish to say that this is a rather extraordinary document which I commend to the House because it provides the basis for getting quality education for the first time for the vast majority of our children. Thank you very much.
FAILURE OF PRESIDENT TO CLARIFY JIT REPORT
(Minister's Response)
The MINISTER OF FINANCE: Madam Speaker, I would like to respond to the issues raised by the hon Taljaard. I think she is completely out of order and disingenuous. The Auditor-General has told SCOPA that he will submit a report himself. To ask the President to speak on behalf of the Auditor- General is to blur the lines between a Chapter 9 institution and the executive. It is wrong in every sense of the word and she should be made to withdraw those comments. [Applause.]
CHILDREN IN PRISONS
(Minister's Response)
The MINISTER OF CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Madam Speaker, I briefly wish to say that the hon Bloem is correct. I have been saying over and over again that children do not belong in prison. I must also add that seeking diversionary programmes for children should not only be the responsibilty of the courts, corrections, police and social development, but it is also incumbent upon members of this House to look for those places where children can serve their period of correction or places of safety in their own constituencies to assist Government. This will help children not to find their way into prisons.
JOB OPPORTUNITIES CREATED BY PHYSICALLY DISABLED MAN
(Minister's Response)
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF TRADE AND INDUSTRY: Madam Deputy Speaker, I would like to respond to the statement made by the hon Nefolovhodwe. I would like to thank him for having brought this success story to the attention of Parliament. The hon member, when making this statement, should have said that he congratulates this Government for creating an environment in which businesses can start and grow. It is also the policy of this Government of preferential procurement that has seen that entrepreneur having clients such as the Gauteng government and the national Department of Agriculture amongst others.
Finally, the Department of Trade and Industry’s strategy of supporting small and medium enterprises is very evident in the statement that the hon member made and I wish to thank him for that.
ZIMBABWEAN ECONOMIC CRISIS
(Minister's Response)
The MINISTER OF FOREIGN AFFAIRS: Madam Deputy Speaker, I just want to say a word or two about a statement that was made by a member of the IFP. There are two issues here. Firstly, the goods that leave South Africa for Zimbabwe are destined for utilisation by ordinary Zimbabweans. Those people who want to stop those goods from reaching Zimbabwe show that they have no concern and do not care about ordinary Zimbabweans. How can these people stop food and other goods from reaching Zimbabwe when the ordinary people need them desperately?
Secondly, I want to say that it is totally irresponsible for a member of Parliament to come here and encourage people to break the law. It is totally unacceptable.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order! Hon member are you rising on a point of order?
Mr A M MPONTSHANE: Yes Madam Speaker, I am.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order! What is your point of order?
Mr A M MPONTSHANE: I think the hon Minister misheard what the hon Dlamini said. He did not encourage these people to break the law. In fact he said the opposite.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order! Hon member, when you have another opportunity, that issue can be clarified. That is really not a point of order. Please proceed, hon Minister.
The MINISTER: So if the hon member was discouraging them, then good. We are not going to allow people to come here and break the law. It is unacceptable and this Government will not allow it.
Thirdly, I want to say that the DA is an endangered species. They should be allowed to proceed with speed towards extinction. [Applause.]
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Yes, hon Lekota.
The MINISTER OF DEFENCE: I thought you had recognised me, Madam Deputy Speaker.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Unfortunately hon member, I have recognised five Ministers already, and that is what I am allowed to recognise. In fact, I didn’t even recognise you. I don’t know how your hand did not show itself clearly, but you will have a chance next time.
SPECIAL PENSIONS AMENDMENT BILL
(Second Reading debate)
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF FINANCE: Madam Deputy Speaker, hon members, I would like to begin by reminding hon members that this House adopted a very special and important piece of legislation in November 1996 - the Special Pensions Act. The primary objective of the legislation is to provide for the payment of special pensions to persons, or their eligible dependants, who made sacrifices or served the public interest in the cause of establishing a nonracial, democratic and constitutional order in the Republic of South Africa. These are the people who, as a result of their devotion to the struggle for a free and democratic South Africa, were prevented from providing for their own pensions. The implementation of this Act has had and continues to have a significant impact on the lives of many deserving people in our country.
Members would again recall that in 1998 the House adopted an amendment to this legislation to improve the delivery of benefits under this Act. Today we table a second round of amendments to this legislation which deals exclusively with administrative matters in order to facilitate and expedite the ongoing implementation of the Act. Even as we do so we may be tabling further amendments as we remain seized with examining on an ongoing basis the experience we have had in implementing this dispensation in relation to the policy parameters that we have set.
The main objectives of the amendment Bill that is before the House today are: Firstly, to allow the Special Pensions Board to condone late applications which were received after the closing date contemplated in the Act. This will open an opportunity for all persons who meet the qualification criteria as prescribed by the Act, but were left out because of the cutoff date for submitting applications.
Secondly, to clarify the Special Pensions Review Board’s discretion to condone late requests for the review of decisions of the board. This is necessary since the current wording is misleading and caused a misinterpretation of the Act by the review board. The result of such misinterpretation is that the review board took a decision to condone late applications to the board for benefits which were subsequently approved by the board and benefits were granted. The Bill therefore also intends to validate such condonation of late applications by the review board and the subsequent decisions taken by the board on such condoned applications.
Thirdly, to prescribe the quorum for any meeting of the board. The Act currently requires that the board be established with five members but it does not provide guidelines as to what constitutes a quorum for the purpose of regularising meetings of the board.
Fourthly, to remove the limitation of the board’s existence to four years after the commencement date of the Act, and to validate the continued operation of the board. This is necessary since the board has not yet completed its activities. The board will cease to exist as soon as it has completed its activities.
Fifthly, to remove the requirement that one member of the review board must be an actuary as this will save the costs of paying an actuary to sit on every appeal because the review process does not require actuarial expertise. The normal three year cycle actuarial valuation of the entire special pensions scheme, like other pension schemes, will still be performed, and this is separate from the review process. Furthermore, the review board may seek actuarial advice on an ad hoc basis if necessary.
Sixthly, to amend the definition of ``military service’’ so as to include military service or training performed or undergone in the former nonstatutory forces, that is the military forces of the former banned political organisations as contemplated in the Special Pensions Act. The current definition excludes persons who performed military service or undertook military training in the former nonstatutory forces but are not entitled to special pension benefits.
Lastly, the Bill seeks to effect technical corrections and to provide for the retrospective effect of certain amendments so as to ensure the smooth running of administration, the effective and efficient processing of applications for benefits.
Madam Deputy Speaker, I now table the Special Pensions Amendment Bill for consideration and adoption by the House. [Applause.]
Ms B A HOGAN: Madam Speaker, as the Deputy Minister so rightly reminded us, this was a very important Bill that went through our Parliament in 1996. Many people have told me that were it not for this special pension, they would not be able to survive. Many people have also told me that they have still been waiting to hear whether they would receive the special pension. And we are aware that there has been a deadlock in the special pensions department. We are also aware of the new board that came in about two years ago and has been working overtime on many occasions to reduce that backlog and it is worth noting now that that backlog has now been substantially reduced.
However, we are aware that there are many potential beneficiaries who are not yet on the special pensions’ payroll and for that reason the special pensions department has set up a dedicated research unit whose task it now is to identify those people who ought to qualify. I am thinking in particular of the families of people who died in detention. I think of those who were imprisoned. I know that the Robben Island Museum at the moment is working on a detailed register through their registers of everyone who came through their doors so as to produce as comprehensive a list of ex-political prisoners as possible. And I would like to congratulate them and hope that this too feeds into reaching all those people whom it should reach.
The political parties still need to come to the table in a much more concerted way. We still do not have the full details of those people who were in the camps and who were in exile. And I think we need the verification process assisted by dedicated personnel within those political parties. But let me say that this Bill is not the final amendment Bill.
Many people have telephoned me and I have their correspondence and I will keep that correspondence until that review of the Special Pensions Act is finally completed. Because we need to fine-tune that Act. We need to look at areas that need special attention and this Bill before us here is just simply a Bill to facilitate the working of the Special Pensions Board in certain matters, pending a more comprehensive review. So, for those who have been waiting patiently, please bear in mind that this is not the final Bill. That Bill will be before us later this year. With that I would like to say the ANC supports the Bill. [Applause.]
Brig Gen P J SCHALKWYK: Madam Speaker, hon Deputy Minister, hon members, the DA supports the assistance by the Government to provide for old soldiers or in this case old combatants, after military hostilities had ceased. This is very commendable and we are very pleased that this is happening.
The Bill before the House is basically condoning applications for benefits to the Special Pensions Board after the closing date contained in the Special Pensions Act of 1996. While we are creating this condition and creating a more comprehensive approach to the pension dispensation of the nonstatutory force members, there remains a group of ex-soldiers that were not catered for through either special pensions or the new dispensation under discussion. Hopefully this will be addressed as the hon Hogan has just mentioned.
The Military Veterans’ Affairs Act of 1998 provides for the development of national standards regarding military veterans and their dependants. And for the President it is very important to be the Patron-in-Chief of all military veterans. In this Act a military veteran in essence means any person who served in the Union Defence Force, the South African Defence Force, the SA National Defence Force and any nonstatutory force as defined in the Demobilisation Act.
In summary the Special Pensions Act says that MK and APLA veterans will now be receiving pensions. Those who do not qualify for pensions and who are not mentioned are those Black, Indian and Coloured military veterans who worked on a contract basis for the South African Defence Force and who also did not have the means of contributing to a pension fund. Nor do the white males who did national service.
I speak with authority on this subject. I have spoken to these neglected veterans all over South Africa and am now having meetings with them with the advisory board. This year we will be hosting the 25th General Assembly of the World Veterans Federation and we must resolve this problem before that meeting.
My last remark is that the President as the Patron-in-Chief may delegate his responsibility to the Minister, but he cannot delegate his accountability. He must remember that and someone must convey that message to him.
Dr G G WOODS: Thank you, Madam Speaker. The IFP supported the 1996 Act when it came into being, I think, for the humanitarian considerations which it represents and we see the amendments before us today simply as being fine- tuning and in line with those particular humanitarian considerations.
I think one is grateful to the Deputy Minister for reminding us of the background to this Bill and also to the hon Hogan for giving us some of the more day to day specifics of the target clients of this Bill and what they are going through. So, we would like to continue to support this Bill and the amendments and I think we are somewhat reassured by the fact that there are unlikely to be any cost implications in respect of this Bill. [Applause.]
Mnr C B HERANDIEN: Mevrou die Speaker, die Nuwe NP ondersteun die wysiging soos vervat in die voorgestelde wetgewing hier.
Daar is egter een voorbehoud wat ons nie ongesiens kan laat verbygaan nie. Ek reken dat die agb Minister hier ‘n gulde geleentheid verbylaat gaan het om te kyk na daardie groep mense wat in die verlede werklikwaar afgeskeep was. Agb lede sal met my saamstem dat dit nie hulle skuld was dat ooreenkomste by Kempton Park aangegaan is wat hulle spesifiek uitgesluit het nie - en vir die Minister se inligting, ek verwys spesifiek na die Suid- Afrikaanse Kaapse Korps. Dit is … [Tussenwerpsels.] Ek weet, maar die punt wat ek probeer maak, agb Minister, is dat, soos ander lede ook reeds gesê het, wanneer daar na nuwe wysigings gekyk word ons moet toesien dat ons ook na hierdie groepe omsien.
Ons mense kom al ver. Elke keer na ‘n oorlog het hulle nog net ‘n dikwielfiets, ‘n army jas en ‘n halfkroon gekry. Die tyd het aangebreek dat ons na hierdie mense omsien. Ons steun die wysiging, maar ek wil in dieselfde asem die agb Minister vra dat hy vir ons ‘n aanduiding gee dat hy oop is vir gesprekke in die toekoms sodat ons ook na hierdie mense kan omsien. (Translation of Afrikaans speech follows.)
[Mr C B HERANDIEN: Madam Speaker, the New NP supports the amendment as contained here in the proposed legislation.
There is, however, one reservation that we cannot allow to go unnoticed. I believe that the hon the Minister let a golden opportunity pass to take care of a group of people that was really neglected in the past. Hon members will agree with me that it was not their fault that agreements were entered into in Kempton Park which specifically excluded them - and for the Minister’s information, I am referring specifically to the South African Cape Corps. It is … [Interjections.] I know, but the point I’m trying to make, hon Minister, is that when, as other members have already said, new amendments are being considered, we should see to it that we also take care of these groups.
Our people have come a long way. After every war, all they have been given is a bicycle with thick tyres, an army coat and half-a-crown. The time has come for us to take care of these people. We support the amendment, but at the same time I want to ask the hon the Minister to give us an indication that he is open to discussions in the future so that we can also take care of these people.]
Mnr A BLAAS: Speaker, die oogmerke van die Wysigingswetsontwerp op Spesiale Pensioene is reeds bespreek. Die noodsaaklikheid van hierdie wysiging vir die Weermag word weer eens net ‘n slag onderstreep.
Die personeeluitgawes in die Weermag is buitengewoon groot inaggenome die reeds onvoldoende begroting. Die wysigings sal dit moontlik maak om met die beoogde menslike hulpbronstrategie van die SA Weermag voort te gaan en die rasionaliseringsproses af te handel. Die gevolg is dat meer geld vir die bedryf van die Weermag beskikbaar kan kom en sodoende kan broodnodige aktiwiteite wat noodsaaklik is om die paraatheid van die SA Weermag op te skerp, aandag kry. Dit is, soos afgelei kan word uit die begrotingsdebat van die Weermag, uiters en dringend noodsaaklik.
Die sentimente uitgespreek deur die agb Van Schalkwyk is ook ons kommer en ons vertrou dat hierdie aangeleentheid binnekort die nodige aandag gaan kry. Die ACDP sal hierdie wysigingswetsontwerp steun. (Translation of Afrikaans speech follows.)
[Mr A BLAAS: Speaker, the objectives of the Special Pensions Amendment Bill have already been discussed. The necessity of this amendment for the Defence Force is merely being underlined once again.
The personnel expenditure in the Defence Force is exceptionally high, bearing in mind the already inadequate budget. The amendments will make it possible to proceed with the envisaged human resources strategy of the SA National Defence Force and to finalise the rationalisation process. The result is that more money can become available for the functioning of the Defence Force, and consequently absolutely vital activities essential to the upgrading of the preparedness of the SA Defence Force can receive attention. This is, as can be deduced from the budget debate of the Defence Force, extremely and urgently necessary.
The sentiments expressed by the hon Van Schalkwyk also reflect our concerns, and we trust that this matter will soon receive the necessary attention. The ACDP will support this amending Bill.]
Ms S RAJBALLY: Thank you, Madam Speaker. The MF has great respect for the SA Defence Force. The duties that these men and women have taken upon themselves and the sacrifices they have made in honour of their country, are admirable. We extend our gratitude to them.
The MF notes that many forces have joined the SANDF since 1994 and considers it promising that the unified defence of all South Africans has been attained. As regards the amending Bill, the MF is supportive of accommodating pensions in that manner. Our nation owes it to these dedicated members of the SANDF. Their wellbeing in their old age is our responsibility and it is an injustice to deprive persons of a pension they are entitled to.
The amending Bill appears to be in order and appropriate for deserving people, and the MF supports it. [Applause.]
Mnr C AUCAMP: Agb Speaker, die belangrikste wysiging in hierdie Wetsontwerp is die uitbreiding van die definisie van militêre diens, ingevolge Klousule
- Die NA het begrip daarvoor dat vanweë historiese omstandighede daar talle werknemers is, veral in die SA Weermag, wat op ‘n relatief hoë ouderdom in diens gestel is en nou om den brode in diens moet bly vanweë ‘n gebrek aan pensioen. Daarom vertrou ons dat die wetswysiging daartoe sal lei dat die ouderdomsprofiel in die Weermag sal kan verbeter. Dit spreek vanself dat ‘n man wat met ‘n kierie loop nie ‘n goeie voetsoldaat kan uitmaak nie. Ons hoop dat hierdie wetgewing ‘n beter bedeling vir hulle daar sal stel om dan met pensioen te kan gaan.
Ek het ‘n vraag. Moes daar nie ‘n afsluitdatum gekom het by klousule 1 nie? Soos dit tans staan, bly dit oop vir enige laat aansoeke tot op watter stadium ook al. Die NA steun ook die pleidooie van die agb Schalkwyk vir ‘n beter bedeling vir veterane en ons steun met graagte hierdie stukkie wetgewing. (Translation of Afrikaans speech follows.)
[Mr C AUCAMP: Hon Speaker, the most important amendment in this Bill is the extension of the definition of military service, in accordance with clause
- The NA can understand that, owing to historical circumstances, there are many employees, especially in the SA Defence Force, who were employed at a relatively advanced age and who now have to continue working in order to earn a living, owing to a lack of pension. We therefore trust that the statutory amendment will lead to an improvement in the age profile in the Defence Force. It goes without saying that a man who walks with a cane cannot make a good infantryman. We hope that this legislation will bring about a better dispensation for them, so that they will be able to go on pension.
I have a question. Should there not have been a closing date in clause 1? As it stands at present, it remains open for any late applications up to whatever stage. The NA also support the appeals of the hon Schalkwyk for a better dispensation for veterans and we take pleasure in supporting this piece of legislation.]
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF FINANCE: Thank you, Madam Speaker. I think it’s important to state first of all that from the start of the process of establishing this dispensation, we have sought to ensure that all political parties are agreed on what this dispensation is meant to achieve. And I think in order for us to retain that essential consensus around the special pensions dispensation, it’s important for us to maintain the position of what this special pension dispensation was created to address. Because once we begin to address a whole variety of issues that are not related to what this dispensation was created for, then we lose that essential consensus that we had from the beginning. Just to recap: It’s important to say that we created this dispensation in order to recognise the fact that there’s an important category of South Africans who worked towards the achievement of the dispensation that we are enjoying today.
We say today that we have a democracy in South Africa. We have a constitutional dispensation in South Africa. There are people that worked for this and as a result of that were not able to provide for their own pensions. We are essentially therefore recognising the fact that those people did not manage to provide for a pension for themselves.
The important thing about this, is to make the point that we are not paying people because they were involved in the struggle. We’re recognising the fact that people lost an opportunity, either through being banned, or imprisoned or exiled, to provide for a pension for themselves.
These are important points to remember, because if we begin to raise the issue of military veterans who worked in the previous dispensation to uphold the previous dispensation, this Act cannot address that particular issue, because this Act was promulgated to deal with people who fought for the establishment of the present dispensation. This is therefore not the right place to raise the issue of those categories of people who served in the defence force at that stage.
Madam Speaker, I wish to thank parties very much for the support they have generally given to this legislation. Debate concluded.
Bill read a second time.
FINANCIAL AND FISCAL COMMISSION AMENDMENT BILL
(Second Reading debate)
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF FINANCE: Madam Speaker, hon members, the Financial and Fiscal Commission is a constitutionally independent body established in terms of section 221 of the Constitution, and is regulated by the Financial and Fiscal Commission Act of 1997. It plays an important advisory role to Parliament and other legislatures. It also advises Parliament and Government on whether the annual division of revenue between the three spheres of government is equitable. The FFC also makes recommendations on most legislation affecting the fiscal powers of provincial and local spheres of government.
The Bill is largely a technical and consequential Bill, motivated by the legislative obligations arising from the enactment in 2001 of the amendments to section 221 of the Constitution, which reduce the number of commissioners from 22 to nine. The new reduced commission will consist of a chairperson, a deputy chairperson, three members nominated by the provinces, two persons nominated by organised local government and two other persons. The constitutional amendment reduces both provincially and nationally nominated members.
The President will continue to appoint the chairperson, the deputy chairperson and the two nationally nominated members. However, whereas before each province nominated one person to the President to appoint to the commission, so that the nine provinces nominated nine persons, this Bill addresses how the nine provinces, through their Premiers, are to nominate three persons for appointment to the commission. Each province can no longer assume that the President will appoint its nominee to the commission.
The new section 221 (i)(a) of the Constitution requires national legislation for Premiers and organised local government to compile a list of nominees. Local government will continue to nominate two persons to the commission. The Minister has to compile a list of all these nominees and circulate it to the nine Premiers, who will endeavour to reach consensus on a shortlist of four nominees, one name more than the number of vacancies that are to be filled.
If the Premiers reach consensus on the four names, the President will appoint the commission from this list. If the Premiers cannot reach consensus, the complete list of nominees will be submitted to the President, and he will make the appointments by choosing three of the nominees whose names were submitted for appointment to the commission.
The nomination of the two persons by organised local government will take place in accordance with the process as set out in the Organised Local Government Act of 1997. The Bill also provides for the President to consult with the Premiers and organised local government before removing any of the members nominated by them.
Two further amendments are also made to the Act. One of the amendment extends the functions of the FFC to provide advice when functions are shifted between spheres of government. Stipulations in section 3 aim to prevent unfunded mandates resulting from the shifting of functions between spheres of government.
Before powers or functions can be assigned to the provincial or local spheres of government, the transferring organ of state must seek the advice of the commission on the financial implications. Such an assignment of a function will have no legal force until a written indication is given that the FFC’s advice was sought and considered. There is also a need to consult with the National Treasury, as the shifting of functions will have implications for the division of revenue between the three spheres of government. The last set of changes to the FFC Act brings it into line with the provisions of the PFMA. Although the PFMA already applies to the FFC, and overrides the provisions on financial management, the amendment merely removes those provisions from the Act that duplicate or are in conflict with the PFMA, particularly those provisions relating to financial statements.
I hereby present the FFC Amendment Bill for consideration and adoption by the House. [Applause.]
Mr N M NENE: Madam Speaker, hon members, the Bill before us today in the main addresses four issues, as has been explained by the Deputy Minister, to bring the Financial and Fiscal Commission Act into line with the Constitution as amended by Act 61 of 2001, which reduces the number of commission members from 22 to nine, and also to bring the Act into line with the PFMA.
It also proposes the insertion of a provision which would require any organ of state which intends assigning any power or function to an organ of state in another sphere of government to request the advice of the FFC, on any financial implications of the said assignment. Lastly, it amends section 5 of the Organised Local Government Act of 1997 in order to provide for a process whereby local government can participate meaningfully in the compilation of a list from which the President will make two appointments in terms of section 5 of the FFC Act, in accordance with the Constitution as amended in 2001.
These amendments have been necessitated by a number of occurrences. Key among these is the transformation of the state machinery as per the ANC’s resolutions at our last conference in December last year. The liberation of our people will be meaningless if the state machinery is not geared towards the delivery that would push back the frontiers of poverty.
The FFC is an important role-player in the budget process and has undergone tremendous transformation itself since its establishment. This commission was established in accordance with section 221 of the Constitution as an independent body whose main responsibility it is to make recommendations that inform the intergovernmental policy-making process. The commission is also part of an elaborate set of mechanisms for establishing policy and balancing the myriad interests of a democratic and progressive state. Given this unique position and the role assigned to it in the Constitution, the commission is at the centre of the debate on the equitable sharing of nationally raised revenue and, therefore, continues to make recommendations in an independent and impartial manner.
The commission has played its role quite effectively in the past nine years and its independence has never been called into question. When making its recommendations it has been guided by a few principles, as stated in its annual report. The constitutional status of each sphere of government is respected and the Constitution’s Bill of Rights, which mandates the provision of basic services to all citizens, as well as the key principle of good intergovernmental relations and strong consultative arrangements with key stakeholders in the fiscal system.
The ANC-led Government established these structures in order to deepen democracy and promote transparency and accountability. That is why these amendments are intended, among other things, to bring the FFC Act into line with the PFMA, and to enforce this extensive consultation with the commission with regard to assigning functions and powers among organs of state within spheres of government. This amendment goes further and states that if this consultation did not occur, as the Deputy Minister indicated, then the assignment would have no legal force. The reason for this is that such assignments inevitably have financial and fiscal implications which may at times result in unfunded mandates for provincial and local governments.
This amendment also deals with section 5 of the Organised Local Government Act of 1997 by giving organised local government the opportunity to participate meaningfully, as I have indicated, in the appointment of the two members.
The ANC’s commitment to democracy is rooted in the Freedom Charter which states clearly that, ``The People Shall Govern’’ and hence this process. Participatory democracy is key to the transformation of the state machinery and building a developmental state that delivers basic service to all, particularly the poor.
These amendments are, therefore, nothing but a vehicle through which the ANC Government ensures that the national democratic revolution is closely guarded and that it succeeds. The FFC is but one of those structures that ensures the delivery of quality service to our people which is sustainable and cost-effective. In our oversight visit to the commission I was encouraged to see the dedicated staff and to hear them speaking so passionately about their role in ensuring that the commission’s constitutional mandate is achieved.
In the commission’s Medium-Term Expenditure Framework for 2004-2007 the commission makes very clear proposals with regard to expenditure assignments, performance measurement provision on the constitutionally mandated basic services, poverty targeting and norms and standards. The commission also makes very valuable recommendations with respect to the health, education and social development provincial equitable share formula, as well as the overall provincial equitable share formula.
I trust that all relevant committees are going to engage with these recommendations. I am aware that these recommendations have already been presented to the budget council and we look forward to further engagements that will see these issues taken forward. The ANC supports these amendments. [Applause.]
Ms R TALJAARD: Madame Speaker, colleagues, in a debate on the Constitution of the Republic of South Africa Second Amendment Bill in November 2001, my colleague, Dr Delport, stated the following when the number of FFC Commissioners was reduced from 22 to 9:
We have a concern, however. In the present composition, specific provision is made for nine persons per province to take care of the interests of the province. This falls away. This is being reduced to three members who will be appointed by the President from a pool.
We want to appeal to the hon President to appoint a well-balanced commission that will take proper care of the interests that the commission will be entrusted with. We have every confidence that he will do so.
The Bill before the House brings the FFC Act in line with the Constitution, as amended by the Constitution of the Republic of South Africa Second Amendment Act of 2001. The newly introduced provisions create a favourable dispensation to involve the provinces in the President’s appointment procedure of the reduced number of FFC Commissioners. The involvement of the nine Premiers in compiling a short list of nominees for the President to appoint from must be welcomed.
The amendment to section 3 of the FFC Act will strengthen the FFC’s hand considerably in guarding against any organ of state in one sphere of government, seeking to assign any power or function to any other organ of state in another sphere of government, in accordance with any law, without consulting the FFC and soliciting its views in terms of new mandatory provisions. This could be a powerful tool in the hands of the FFC in warding off any unfunded mandates. And this will be a crucial new extended power for the FFC.
As we formalise the implications of the constitutional amendment today, the focus must, however, fall on the reform of the intergovernmental fiscal system on the eve of the tenth anniversary of the FFC. Not only will the formulas for revenue allocation to the provinces and local government be reviewed, based on the Census 2002 data once it is finally released by Statistics South Africa, but crucial questions will need to be asked about the role of the FFC in assisting legislatures as part of its oversight duties, whether this be Parliament or the respective nine provincial legislatures. Parliament needs to subject the executive and all these departments that have to appear before portfolio committees, to questions based on the FFC recommendations. The Portfolio Committee on Finance currently plays the leading role in processing the Division of Revenue Bill to which the FFC’s recommendations speak.
However, Parliament will have to sharpen its oversight focus and the portfolio committees will have to play a very important and prominent role in this regard to ensure that oversight is exercised over the FFC recommendations and whether or not they are taken up by the respective government departments. This will have to be a sharpened focus of oversight and accountability, tracing the FFC recommendations through all the respective portfolios, with portfolio committees interacting with one another and with the Portfolio Committee on Finance when the division of revenue is processed through Parliament. The DA supports this Bill.
Dr G G WOODS: Madam Speaker, the IFP continues to question the relevance of the FFC and to support the idea that at some stage we bring the issue up for broader debate.
I think we all know the intention of the Constitution in giving birth to the FFC, but I think, looking back and asking whether it has fulfilled that intention, does raise some questions. And, partly, this is an expression of the confidence of the IFP in the Treasury, for one, that I think in covering the particular responsibilities of the FFC Treasury, has displayed that it has the in-house capacity and expertise. But I think it is also confidence in the structures, the processes, the Minmecs and the role of the NCOP, etc, in ensuring that the degree of communication that takes place between the various spheres of government indeed does take place. I think the admission from Treasury over a number of years is that the extent to which they are influenced by the FFC’s thinking is limited.
Coming to the amendments before us, and I think in particular the amendment of immediate substance which is the issue of unfunded mandates, our question would be: Is this something of a futile amendment? Section 35 of the PMFA has already asked that all legislation - and this amendment refers specifically to legislation - in future be accompanied by full costings of any effects of transfer of powers or functions. There again our reasoning would be that that would filter through the systems and the structures, and to give this as a further assignment to the FFC does puzzle us somewhat. We have to be somewhat cynical in asking whether these are not just issues and assignments which attempt to give the FFC a greater appearance of purpose and relevance. Nonetheless, we do think that there is no harm done, even though it is a costly exercise supporting the FFC, and we will support the Bill.
Dr W A ODENDAAL: Agb Speaker, na my mening is een van die belangrikste wysigings wat in hierdie wetsontwerp vervat is dat ‘n staatsinstelling wat ‘n regeringsbevoegdheid of regeringsfunksie van een vlak van regering na ‘n staatsinstelling in ‘n ander regeringsvlak wil verskuif, eers die kommissie moet raadpleeg oor die finansiële implikasies van so ‘n skuif voordat dit sal kan gebeur. Dit sal na my mening goeie finansiële bestuur binne die staatsdiens bevorder.
Die ander wysigings wat voorgestel is, is hoofsaaklik administratief van aard om die wetgewing in ooreenstemming te bring met die bepalings van die Grondwet en daarom is dit ‘n voorreg vir die Nuwe NP om hierdie wetgewing te steun. (Translation of Afrikaans speech follows.)
[Dr W A ODENDAAL: Hon Speaker, in my opinion one of the most important amendments contained in this Bill is that an organ of state which seeks to assign any power or function of one sphere of government to an organ of state in another sphere of government, should first consult the commission on the financial implications of such assignment before it can take place. This will, in my opinion, promote sound financial management within the public service.
The other proposed amendments are mainly of an administrative nature to bring this legislation into line with the provisions of the Constitution, and that is why it is a privilege for the New NP to support this legislation.]
Ms S RAJBALLY: Thank you, Madam Speaker. The MF is pleased with the amendments made to this Bill to bring it in line with our national Constitution, and has no objection to the added provision of having to seek the advice of the FFC on any financial implications when an organ of state assigns a function to another organ of state. In fact, the MF considers this beneficial in preventing provincial and local governments being assigned unfunded mandates.
The amendments to bring the Bill into line with the Public Finance Management Act of 1999 and the proposed amendment to the Organised Local Government Act of 1997 are supported. The transitional arrangements that the Bill proposes in respect of the members of the commission appears adequate. The MF supports the Financial and Fiscal Commission Amendment Bill.
Mnr C AUCAMP: Agb Speaker, hierdie wetswysiging is hoofsaaklik tegnies van aard om die samestelling van hierdie kommissie in lyn te bring met die grondwet. Die vermindering van die personeel van die kommissie van 22 na 9, soos reeds in die grondwetwysiging goedgekeur, maak sin, asook die meer vaartbelynde prosedure waarvoor daar in hierdie wetswysiging voorsiening gemaak word.
Die FFK se werk is van groot belang in die hele begrotingsproses. Die toewysing en verdeling van die fondse na verskillende sfere van die regering is van kardinale belang in ‘n land soos Suid-Afrika. En dit is van groot belang dat hierdie kommissie moet bestaan uit kundiges, dat dit effektief moet kan funksioneer en dat dit nie ‘n tou-trek forum tussen verteenwoordigers van nege provinsies moet wees nie. Daarom is die betrokkenheid en die samestelling van die kommissie, eerder as direkte deelname deur die provinsies, te verwelkom.
Die NA spreek die vertroue uit dat hierdie wetswysiging daartoe sal lei dat die FFK sy kardinale rol effektief sal kan vervul en ons ondersteun graag hierdie stukkie wetgewing. (Translation of Afrikaans speech follows.)
[Mr C AUCAMP: Hon Speaker, this Statutory amendment is mainly of a technical nature to bring the composition of this commission into line with the Constitution.
The decrease in the number of members of the commission from 22 to nine, as already approved in the amendment to the Constitution, makes sense, as does the more streamlined procedure for which provision is made in this statutory amendment.
The FFC’s work is of great importance in the whole budgetary process. The allocation of the funds and their division among different spheres of government is of vital importance in a country like South Africa. And it is of great importance that this commission should consist of experts, that it should function effectively and that it should not be a tug-of-war forum of representatives from the nine provinces. For that reason the involvement and composition of the commission, rather than direct participation by the provinces, is welcomed.
The NA expresses the hope that this statutory amendment will lead to the FFC being able to fulfil its primary role effectively and we take pleasure in supporting this piece of legislation.]
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF FINANCE: Chairperson, I would like to thank all members and all parties for the support that they have given to this amending Bill. Indeed, these are largely technical amendments that do not change the policy foundations of the FFC, and the issues that the hon Gavin Woods raised are possibly matters that we might want to debate when we are dealing with the foundations of the FFC.
I want to believe that the considerations that applied when the FFC was established still remain valid today. The reason for this is that in an environment like ours with the system of government that we have - in which we are also trying to address a whole host of issues, such as the disparities that exist between different provinces and the whole legacy of apartheid that we come from, it becomes important to pay special attention to the issue of how the resources of the nation are allocated. I still think that it is important to have a voice such as the FFC that dispassionately applies its mind to the issue of the division of revenue between the different spheres of government, but also carries out other important functions such as we are introducing now.
One of the problems that we have had to deal with in the past has been unfunded mandates, where functions were just transferred to other spheres of government without the concomitant consideration of what the financial implications are. So, perhaps on another day this is a matter that we can debate, but we still believe that the FFC is a relevant organisation.
I want to possibly agree with the hon Taljaard on the issue of whether we have been able to pay particular attention to the work that the FFC tables before Parliament, and that there may be a need to sharpen the focus. I believe this also applies to other areas pertaining to some of the documents that we table in this House: The Estimates of National Expenditure and the Intergovernmental Fiscal Review. I think in general I would agree that there should possibly be a somewhat sharper focus on those documents, but I would like to thank all members for their participation in this debate.
Debate concluded.
Bill read a second time.
MINING TITLES REGISTRATION AMENDMENT BILL
(Second Reading debate)
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF MINERALS AND ENERGY: Thank you, Chairperson. Today is another important day for minerals and energy and yet another milestone in the transformation of the mining and minerals industry. This milestone is in the form of yet another piece of legislation, the Mining Titles Registration Amendment Bill, which is designed to further entrench and deepen the transformation effort introduced by the Mineral and Petroleum Resources Development Act.
As hon members will recall, one of the most important administrative activities envisaged in the Mineral and Petroleum Resources Development Act is the conversion of old order rights into new order rights. It is therefore critical that the new process of migration from the old mining regulatory dispensation to the new one should take place in a similar and orderly process. The Mining Titles Registration Amendment Bill is therefore a necessary supporting leg to bring about and give effect to this transformation.
The process and the objectives of this amendment are therefore the following: To amend the Mining Titles Registration Act of 1967 with regard to certain definitions; to regulate the reregistration of mineral and petroleum titles and other rights connected therewith and certain other deeds and documents; to effect certain amendments necessary to ensure consistency with the MPRDA; to repeal obsolete provision and to provide for matters connected therewith.
This Act accordingly establishes a central point for the registration and recording of all mineral and petroleum titles in South Africa granted in terms of the MPRDA and creates a central mineral and petroleum deeds and information service in the country thereby bringing the one-stop shop principle to fruition.
The Mining Titles Registration Act, Act 16 of 1967, as it stands is not compatible with the transformation initiatives ushered in by the MPRDA. This Act regulates the registration of mining titles and other rights connected with prospecting and mining. Stand titles and certain other deeds and documents that provide for matters incidental thereto are therefore not included in the Mining Titles Registration Act for the implementation of the new mining regime.
It is as a result of this gap that there is a need to amend this technical but important piece of legislation to make sure that the gains made in the transformation initiatives are consolidated. There is a need therefore to amend this legislation in order to align it to the new policy position and legislation requirements.
Other changes in the legislation are the granting of the power to make regulations to the Minister and the abolition of the mining lease board that was established to make, alter and rescind the said regulations previously. The rights granted in terms of the Mineral and Petroleum Resources Development Act are defined as real rights which when registered in terms of this Act in the newly established Mineral and Petroleum Titles Registration Office become binding on third parties. This Bill further provides for the simultaneous registration and deregistration of rights in the Department of Minerals and Energy and the Department of Agriculture and Land Affairs and guarantees the continued registration and existence of rights.
The Mining Titles Registration Amendment Bill gives effect in a practical way to the notion of mineral resources being a national patrimony and therefore the asset of all South Africans as spelt out in the Mineral and Petroleum Resources Development Act. In terms of the proposed section 16 of this Bill, prospecting and mining rights will not form part of the joint estate and succession to rights will be subject to sections 9 and 12 of the Mineral and Petroleum Resources Development Act, Act 28 of 2002. This principle meaningfully recognises that mineral resources in this country belong to all and not just a chosen and privileged few. Access to information which has been an obstacle to entry by the previously disadvantaged will now be guaranteed in terms of this Act.
All these aspects of the law are new and important features of the new regime, including this proposed legislation. One of the implications of not amending the Mining Titles Registration Act would be that access to information would remain limited, and this would have dire and direct consequences for the meaningful participation of previously disadvantaged people in this essentially limited equitable access to the mining and mineral industry.
Security of tenure will be compromised, since this provision dealing with mining and prospecting had been repealed in the Deeds Registries Act, and is not provided for in the Mining Titles Registration Act, Act 16 of 1967. Rights will be deregistered if provision is made in the form of amendments, and this would have negative implications on ownership of prospecting, mining and other related rights.
In the light of the efforts of the Department of Minerals and Energy to redress the inequalities of the past within the mining industry, our approach to the implementation of the new mining regime will be holistic and it is for this reason that this Act should commence on the same date as the Minerals and Petroleum Resources Development Act. This Act should commence on this date to ensure that the current dispensation is in place and we are able to meet the target and the needs of our people in terms of ensuring that the transformation which is happening in the mining industry does take place with immediate effect. [Applause.]
Mr M T GONIWE: Chairperson, on 26 June last year this august House passed the Mineral and Petroleum Resources Development Bill of 2002. This piece of legislation sets the direction for the overall transformation of the mineral and petroleum industries. Our Constitution requires that Government consults with the public in the development of policy and legislation and that Parliament plays an oversight role in the activities of the executive.
When this Bill was presented to the portfolio committee for consideration, the committee felt that the department had not consulted sufficiently with stakeholders. The committee, therefore, requested the department to go back and consult more with stakeholders. This kind of intervention led to an improved Bill and one which did not cause a lot of ructions within the industry. This is an indication of the important role Parliament plays in making sure that the executive gives effect to its constitutional obligations.
Public hearings were conducted in a manner which gave all parties an opportunity to express their views on the Bill and present alternatives to the proposals presented by the executive. The hearings were open to all who wished to participate. It is, therefore, the view of the committee that we have sufficiently consulted with the public. In so doing, we have complied with our constitutional obligations and rules of Parliament relating to consultation. Therefore, the Bill presented to this House today broadly represents the views of all stakeholders in the mineral and petroleum industries.
The Mining Titles Registration Act of 1967 gave effect to the registration requirements of the Mining Rights Act of 1967, and other related mining legislation of our sad past. As hon members may recall, it was the policy of the apartheid and colonial governments to exclude blacks from participation in the minerals industry. Since the registration Act dealt with rights granted in terms of discriminatory legislation, it is obvious that discriminatory practices were also reinforced in and by the registration Act.
The promulgation of the Minerals Act of 1992 led to the duplication of registration of prospecting and mining rights in two government departments. This state of affairs became untenable and could not be allowed to continue within a legislative framework which commits Government to effective and efficient administration and to the principles of Batho Pele and service delivery.
In a nutshell, the Mining Titles Registration Act of 1967 is completely out of sync with the legislative and policy realities of the new South Africa. It is therefore crucial that the Act should be brought into line with the governing and legislative principles of the new South Africa. In so doing, Parliament is giving effect to the constitutional provision that states that all laws that were in force when the new Constitution took effect, continue to be in force until subjected to an amendment or repeal by the National Assembly.
The Mineral and Petroleum Resources Development Act guarantees security of tenure of prospecting and mining rights, and efficient and effective administration of rights and the registration thereof. Most importantly, the Act enshrines the transformatory agenda of the Government.
In line with the requirements of the law, the department, in consultation with stakeholders, developed the broad-based socioeconomic empowerment charter and the scorecard. These two documents give effect to the empowerment policy of Government. These instruments have redefined black economic empowerment by extending the areas which the original definition was confined to. The new definition addresses issues such as equity, participation in management, human resources development and employment equity, community development, procurement, migrant labour, housing, living conditions and beneficiation.
The amendment of the 1967 Act will ensure that Government is given the capacity and ability to ensure that all the requirements of the charter, the scorecard and other provisions of the law are being met and where noncompliance is identified, appropriate actions are taken in terms of the Mineral and Petroleum Resources Development Act. Thank you. [Applause.]
Mr B G BELL: Chairperson, hon Minister, hon members, it is an honour to speak on behalf of the DA in this discussion of the Mining Titles Registration Amendment Bill. This Bill will bring the Mining Titles Registration Act of 1967 into line with changes needed to meet the requirements of the Mineral and Petroleum Resources Development Act, Act 28 of 2002.
The Mineral and Petroleum Resources Development Act cannot be implemented as the money Bill is still awaited. The money Bill has not had a very promising start with the industry as it appears to be flawed and needs to be changed considerably before the industry will accept it.
The Mining Titles Registration Amendment Bill has been through a thorough consultative process with stakeholders, and public hearings were held. The industry raised many problems and this necessitated a large number of amendments. This brings us to a problem. It was agreed to fast-track this Bill with a view to discussing it on 20 June - tomorrow. Then on 18 June - yesterday - it was announced that to meet programming difficulties, the Bill had to be discussed today. This means that the administration staff had to make all these amendments and print the Bill in time for us to have a copy of the amended Bill this morning.
I must congratulate the staff for achieving the impossible. The only problem is that none of us has had time to check that the amendments are those that were approved and voted on yesterday. Therefore, I, therefore, cannot guarantee that the Bill we are discussing is the same one that we approved in the committee.
This is a Bill of a technical nature, but there are areas where the affected communities can be disadvantaged. One aspect I wish to highlight is the clause that gives the Director-General the authority to destroy documents. This is obviously necessary in some cases as there is a limit to the number of documents that can be stored. My request is that in the regulations governing this action, a first choice for disposing of these documents would be to return them to the last registered owner, who could then decide what to do with it them. They could be kept as a family heirloom or if the owner is a company, they could be kept in the company archives. In 1989 I was involved in researching the history of 100 years of coal mining in the Witbank area and documents like that would have been extremely useful.
Another area of grave concern is the position with regard to succession. A mining right or other rights granted under the Act may be given to an individual. Should this individual pass on, the right lapses, and by law any mining or other activity taking place, should cease. This could affect the small mine community - the one man shows - in particular, as section 56 of the Mines Act mentions that the right lapses only if there are no successors. In fact, it was stated that the spirit was to have the right revert to the state.
This is a nightmare and will require a great deal of discussion and thought. It may require amendments to a number of clauses. The discussion that took place in the the committee yesterday, when I raised the issue, proved that there is concern in this regard.
In conclusion, the DA will support the Bill, but it would like to voice its disapproval of the fast-tracking of the Bill, which lays us open to criticism that were passed, a Bill which I personally cannot vouch for. Thank you for listening.
Mr E J LUCAS: Chairperson, Deputy Minister of Minerals and Energy, colleagues, last year when Parliament passed the Mineral and Petroleum Resources Development Act, it was immediately clear that the mining landscape in South Africa would forever be dramatically altered. The cornerstone of the Act was that mining and other related rights would in future belong exclusively to the state, which would have the power to decide who gets authorisation to mine or to prospect through a system of permits and licences. Existing rights would have to be converted to so- called new order rights in the course of a transitional period of five years.
The adoption of the Mineral and Petroleum Resources Development Act also meant that a large number of consequential amendments would have to be made to existing statutes. The Bill being debated today provides for a number of these consequential amendments. In essence it amends the principle Act of 1967 to provide for registration of mineral and petroleum titles under the new legal dispensation. It also proposes a number of amendments to ensure it is in line with the MPRDA.
Finally, it amends the Deeds Registry Act of 1937 to remove outdated functions in regard to the registration of mineral rights from that Act. In doing so, the Bill creates the Mineral and Petroleum Titles Registration Office to deal with all mining titles and other rights that have to be registered in terms of the MPRDA. The Office will be created within the national Department of Minerals and Energy.
The Portfolio Committee on Minerals and Energy held public hearings on the Bill on 28 May, where the Chamber of Mines and De Beers made submissions. The main issues of concern centred around the possibility of immediate deregistration of old order rights and an inability to register transactions during the transitional period, the status and manner of registration; destruction of old records and the effects of the Bill on matters of succession and partnerships.
These very important stakeholders raised the possibility that immediate deregistration would have extremely adverse consequences for our mining industry and for empowerment initiatives and would therefore be contrary to the objectives of the MPRDA and the mining empowerment charter. The department countered that immediate deregistration was not the intention and that a difference in interpretation was really the main problem.
In the end, the committee had to take a balanced view of the objectives of the Bill and the real or imagined potential to seriously damage our economy. This balance, the IFP believes, was successfully achieved and we can therefore support the Bill. We also support the fact that numerous clauses dealing with the power of the Minister to make regulations, the continuation of existing registers during the transitional period; the ability to destroy or preserve old records, the issue of succession in title and public access to the Mineral and Petroleum Titles Registration Office were tightened up at the committee stage.
I would like to raise one additional issue. The creation of the Mineral and Petroleum Titles Registration Office to deal with registration issues under the new legal dispensation will no doubt place an additional burden on the Department of Minerals and Energy and its officials. Although the department is functioning well overall, it suffers from capacity constraints in most sections. I can only hope that the new office will be adequately resourced to ensure a smooth and unencumbered registration process in this vital economic field. [Applause.]
HON MEMBERS: Malibongwe! [Praise!]
Ms L M T XINGWANA: Mhlalingaphambili, iNdlu ngokubanzi, andifuni kuzihlupha … [Chairperson and the House in general, I would not like to bother myself …]
… about a party that belongs to the era of the dinosaurs …
… eze kulibazisa inkululeko yabantu. Ngenene siwubhexeshile lo mthetho phaya kwiKomiti yeZimbiwa, singxamele ukuba mawupasiswe ngale mini yanamhlanje kuba ngaphandle kwalo Mthetho uyilwayo, lo mthetho siwupasise ngosuku loXwebhu lweNkululeko kulo nyaka uphelileyo, awukwazi ukufezekiswa. Ngoko ke oko kuthetha ukuba amalungelo abantu afayilishiwe asekhabhathini. Siyawakhupha ke ngoku. Abo ke bafuna ukulibazisa abantu bangawafumani amalungelo abo, baza kuba neengxaki ezingapheliyo. (Translation of Xhosa paragraph follows.)
… whose intention it is to delay the progress of our freedom. We discussed this amending bill in the Portfolio Committee on Minerals and Energy and we thought that it would be passed today because without the backing of this amending bill, the Act that we passed last year on Freedom Charter Day cannot be implemented. That would mean that people’s rights would just be on paper. We are giving people their rights by doing this. Those that are delaying the process with the intention of denying people their rights are going to encounter a lot of problems.]
Those are just delaying tactics.
Enye into ke, umntu omdala akavanga kakuhle ukuba ezi ngxakana anazo azikho azichatshazelwa kulo Mthetho uYilwayo sithetha ngawo, kodwa zikulowa wapasiswa kulo nyaka uphelileyo. Makajonge kuwo, uya kuncedakala phaya. (Translation of Xhosa paragraph follows.)
[Another important thing is that the old man may not have heard properly that his issue is not included in this Mining Titles Registration Amendment Bill, but is included in the Mineral and Petroleum Resources Development Act that was passed last year. He should consult it, that way he will be sorted out. ]
This amendment brings to life the Mineral and Petroleum Resources Development Act that was passed last year. The passing of the Mining Titles Registration Amendment Bill will enact the spirit and objective of the Freedom Charter. This Bill will give mineral rights to the people who were previously denied these rights and excluded from the mining industry for centuries. The Mining Titles Registration Act, which was passed in 1967, was used by the apartheid regime of yesteryear to exclude the majority of our people from this important industry.
Mhlalingaphambili, njengoko senditshilo uMqulu weNkululeko utsho ukuba ubutyebi bezimbiwa zeli lizwe phantsi komhlaba mabubuyele ebantwini. Lo Mthetho uYilwayo wenza oko ke namhlanje njengokuba siyipasisa nje. (Translation of Xhosa paragraph follows.)
[Chairperson, as I have already said, the Freedom Charter states that the wealth generated from minerals of this country should be given back to the people. This Amending Bill’s objective is exactly that.]
This amendment gives mineral rights to the downtrodden, the oppressed and the exploited. Through this amendment opportunities will be opened up to all, including the vulnerable groups that never counted before, such as rural communities, women, people with disabilities and the youth. Through this Bill black women and people with disabilities will, for the first time in the history of South Africa, own mineral rights in their motherland. This is a watershed Bill, hon members. This law will enact mineral rights that are bondable.
Oku kuthetha ukuba uthatha iphepha lakho olinikiweyo uye nalo ebhankini uye kuzifunela imali yokuvula umgodi wakho, ungumama wasezilalini; ungutata wasezilalini. [Uwelewele.] [Kweaqhwatywa.] Oku kubonisa ukuba wonke ubani uza kulingana afumane nethuba lukuxhamla ubutyebi beli lizwe, malungelo lawo awanikwa ngulo Rhulumente ka-ANC. Oku kuza kunika amalungelo kubo bonke abantu, omhlophe, ontsundu, ongumama nongutata ngokulinganayo. Siwanikiwe ke ngoku la malungelo yaye kucacile ukuba uRhulumente ka-ANC ulwela amalungelo abantu. (Translation of isiXhosa paragraph follows.)
[This means that as a man or woman from a rural area one can take one’s title to the bank when applying for financial assistance to open one’s own mine. [Interjections.] [Applause.] This indicates that everybody will be equal and receive equal opportunities and also benefit from the wealth of this country, and only the ANC-led Government has made that possible. This will give rights to all the people; white, black, female and male equally. These rights have been awarded to us and it is clear that the ANC-led Government is fighting for people’s rights.]
The tide has turned.
Iitafile zijikile ngoku zibheke phezulu. Ongumsebenzi uza kufumana amalungelo akhe ezimbiwa nobungxowankulu. Umsebenzi uza kuxhamla naye kulaa ngxowa inkulu. Sibulela kakhulu kwiSebe lethu leZimbiwa naMandla ngokuba lisinike iMining Charter. Le Mining Charter ke ifuna ukuba … (Translation of isiXhosa paragraph follows.)
[The tide has now turned. Workers are going to receive their mining rights. They are also going to enjoy the benefits of being in the business. We would like to commend the Department of Minerals and Energy for providing us with the Mining Charter. The Mining Charter therefore, wants …]
… black economic empowerment to be broad-based.
Ifuna ukuba ezezimbiwa zibe noxanduva lokuphuhlisa abantu. Ngoko ke ivumelana kwanalaa Mthetho wethu ubizwa ngokuba yiMinerals and Petroleum Resources Development Act esiwupasise kulo nyaka uphelileyo. Ufuna ukuba ukuze ufumane iphepha-mvume lokuba nomgodi kufuneka ube nesicwangciso esiza kubonakalisa indlela oza kubaphuhlisa ngayo abantu. (Translation of Xhosa paragraph follows.)
[The Mining Charter’s primary objective is for the mining industry to develop and empower people. In that way it is in agreement with the Mineral and Petroleum Resources Development Act that we passed last year. It requires one to have a business proposal that is going to incorporate an aspect of the empowerment and development of people.]
We do not want other ghost towns like Welkom …
… abalambileyo namhlanje kuba bengasenanto. [… that today has nothing to show.]
They are empty shells today.
Bahambile bagoduka baya eRhawutini bayishiya iWelkom ilambile. Asifuni ukuba kushiyeke imingxuma emikhulu efana nalowo useKhimbali. Sithi makubekho … (Translation of Xhosa paragraph follows.)
[They have gone back to their homes and have left Welkom poor. We do not want big holes left open like the one in Kimberley. We are saying that there should be …]
… an environmental impact study.
Sithi makubekho iiprojekthi eziqalwayo ekuhlaleni njengezolimo ukuze zithi xa ziphela ezi zimbiwa, nanjengokuba ziphela emva kwexesha lithile, abantu babe benemisebenzi okanye ezinye iinkqubo eziza kubaphilisa kwezo ndawo zabo. Ezi nkqubo ke lithi iSebe mazisetyenzwe kunye nabantu. Mababandakanywe abantu basekuhlaleni, beendawo ezisemaphandleni ngakumbi oomama. Kunyanzelekile ukuba bathathe inxaxheba. Kananjalo iihostele maziphele phaya emigodini. (Translation of Xhosa paragraph follows.)
[We propose that farming projects should be initiated in communities so that when there are no longer any mines - as the resources become depleted at a certain point in time - people will have jobs or other programmes that will generate revenue in their communities. Communities, particularly rural ones and especially women, should be fully incorporated. It is imperative that they participate fully. We are also proposing the conversion of hostels into family units.]
They must be converted into family units …
… ukuze abasebenzi bakwazi ukuba bangazithenga. Sithi ke ezi zimbiwa, iplatinamu, idayimani, igolide, mazisetyenzwe kweli. Mazingahambi ziye kuthengiswa eAmerica naseYurophu tshiphu zingakhange zenziwe apha. Sifuna ukuzenzela ngokwethu la macici ngeedizayini zethu esiza ukuzithenga tshiphu apha ekhaya. Ngaloo ndlela senza imisebenzi ukuze oomama nabantwana bethu bafumane.
Sithi iimoto, intsimbi ilapha eMzantsi Afrika, nazo mazenziwe apha, sakhe imisebenzi ngaloo ndlela. Kwakhona sithi makukhutshwe iitenda zokulungisa ukutya, ezokucoca nezokuthutha abantu, kuyekwe ukunikwa iinkampani ezinkulu zoongxowa eRhawutini. Makunikwe abantu apha eMafikeng, apha eRustenburg, ePholokwane. Siyazi ukuba zinkulu eziya tenda, ziziqingatha zeebhiliyoni zeerandi. Inxalenye enkulu yayo mayiye ebantwini ekuhlaleni.
Kukho iithagethi ezimiselwe lisebe ezinjengoo-10% emiselwe oomama. Kambe ke sithi kule minyaka mihlanu yokuqala - lukhulu olu shishino - oomama banga bangalifumana, ngaloo ndlela singaloyisa iphango. Sithi ke malunabe olu shishino iye ebahlalini nabo banikwe amathuba eetenda babe neendibaniselwano (joint ventures) ingabi ngu- one man show lowa ufunwa ngutata wakwa-DA. Thina sifuna ibroad-based black economic empowerment. [Kwaqhwatywa.] (Translation of Xhosa paragraphs follows.)
[… so that workers are able to buy them. We would like beneficiation of platinum, diamonds and gold to be done here. Our minerals need not be exported to America and Europe at a very low cost. We want to produce gold and diamond earrings ourselves so that we could buy them cheaply. In that way we would be creating job opportunities so that our mothers, women and children could benefit.
We have iron in South Africa and, therefore, cars could be manufactured here, which would create jobs. We are also asking that tender notices should be issued for catering, cleaning and transport services and that they should not be awarded only to big businesses in Johannesburg. People from Mafikeng, Rustenburg, and Pholokwane should provide these services. We know that they involve a lot of money, billions of rands. Part of that money should go to the people.
There are targets that the department has set, for instance, the 10% that is set aside for women. We therefore say that in the first five years women should get an opportunity and in that way we would win against poverty and hunger. This is big business. The business should be extended to communities so that they can establish join ventures so that we do not have the one-man shows that the hon member from the DA desires. We want broad- based economic empowerment. [Applause.]]
Through this Bill, the restructuring of the economy has begun. The war against want that will push back the frontiers of poverty has begun. Indeed the tide against poverty is turning and for this reason the ANC supports this Bill. [Applause.]
Mr B M DOUGLAS: Chair, thank you very much. I will have to be quick here. The Bill before us today is quite intentionally progressive, transformative, BEE-friendly, in a hurry, urgent and necessary. During the public hearings people made me laugh when they spoke about old order rights and new order rights. I thought that we had old order privileges and not rights. When I heard the Minister talk about real rights I thought that we had real wrongs, and only now are we giving real rights through this transformation process to people who have actually been wronged.
I would like to share with the House what some of the people had to say, especially the mining houses. Some of them even accused the Minister of trying to regulate or nationalise the mines by stealth. They pointed to ministerial consent and so forth. And I asked myself: Who’s talking now? These people invented ministerial consent the past, but some of us, including myself, were victims of ministerial consent because in those days one could not enter Wits without ministerial consent. But, now that we would like to rectify things using some of the laws that empowered other people, they suddenly find these new terms new, or is it old.
Yes, of course there is concern about the financial institutions, their impact and the implications, impediments and so forth. Some of them became emotional. Some of the legal advisors were issuing warnings all over the show talking about the title records which might become invalid with the introduction of new rights which then would pose a problem when disputing the rights were disputed.
The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! Please take your seat, hon member. Do you have a point of order, hon member?
Mr A M MPONTSHANE: Can the hon member take a question?
Mr B M DOUGLAS: Only if he says please.
The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Are you taking the question, hon member?
Mr B M DOUGLAS: Only if the member says please.
The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Proceed, hon member.
Mr A M MPONTSHANE: I just want to know from the member what he was referring to when he asked whether it was new or old. Is he referring to the National Party as being old or new? Mr B M DOUGLAS: That question does not really tickle my fancy and he never said please. So, I will not answer that. Chairperson, I see that the member took some of my time, but he is an old colleague so I will forgive him. Yes, fingers were also pointed at the impact and the implications of the Deeds Registries Act, the Matrimonial Property Act and some people went as far as trying to use customary marriages and the impact that that would have on title deeds etc. They went to town with it. In the end, wise counsel eventually prevailed and agreement was reached. The New NP supports the Bill. [Time expired.]
Mr A BLAAS: Chair, as was indicated during the introduction of this Bill, it is predominantly administrative in nature and to bring it into line with the Mineral and Petroleum Resources Development Act. I want to interrupt myself. If my memory serves me correctly, last year during the debate on the Mineral and Petroleum Resources Development Act, an undertaking was given by the hon the Minister that this would be tested constitutionally. I am not sure whether I am right or wrong. If I am wrong then I will accept it. I am open to correction.
This Bill does not fully satisfy all the concerns of the stakeholders but in general they are all fairly comfortable with its contents. This can be attributed to the wide consultation that took place and the co-operation of the department to accommodate the concerns of the interested parties.
It must be pointed out that the final version of this Bill was not available to us prior to this debate. I believe it was released this morning but by two o’clock this afternoon it had not reached the third floor of the Marks Building.
The portfolio committee only approved the final amendments in draft form yesterday, because of the pressure to get the Bill through Parliament. We are again at a disadvantage in that we have to accept in good faith that the Bill is as it was approved by the committee. We support the Bill. [Time expired.]
Miss S RAJBALLY: Malibongwe! [Praise!] Chairperson, the MF has no objection to the amendment effected to the Bill to bring it into line with the Mineral and Petroleum Resources Development Act, Act 28 of 2002. It is felt that transformation is necessary in all sectors and forms to make us a successful democracy.
The mining sector has contributed greatly to state income and necessary transformation would encourage this. The MF, however seeks a balanced representation of persons, regardless of colour or gender within the sector.
A concern of the MF is the HIV/Aids pandemic and it is hoped that strong measures are being taken to control the situation in the mining industry.
Once again the MF finds the amendments adequate and supports the Mining Titles Registration Amendment Bill.
Mr G G OLIPHANT: Thank you very much, Chairperson. Members, we must be reminded that next Thursday, 26 June 2003, we will be celebrating the 48th anniversary of the Freedom Charter. We have additional copies available for the members on the left, because some of them have asked to know more about this historic document.
Hon members will also recall that last year on the same date we passed the legislation that changes the ownership pattern of the mineral wealth of this country, namely the Mineral and Petroleum Resources Development Act, Act 28 of 2002. That legislation was subsequently assented to by the State President on 10 October 2002. So, it is law. We need to start applying the provisions of that Act.
This Act gives practical expression to the Freedom Charter which says, amongst other things, that ``the people shall share in the country’s wealth’’ and we know that this industry that we are talking about is worth about R800 billion. We should be able to share in that wealth. Gone are the days where some people would register the wealth of this country in their own names, in the names of their spouses, their children - born and unborn
- and then bind us as a country to say when they are dead that we cannot take over anything that belongs to their children. [Applause].
We are saying that we are changing this pattern around and we are creating opportunities for members of communities out there to go and ensure that we participate in the mining industry in many ways. That includes setting up companies and ensuring that people go to the Department of Minerals and Energy to say that they want to mine there. That includes issues that the comrade spoke about concerning procurement. If we take the Northern Cape as an example, the mining industry there earns close to R4 billion every year and that money has always gone to the same people. When we do constituency work, we have to go back and change the situation around.
We, as a committee, agreed to fast-track this Bill. I would urge members of the opposition to respect this agreement. The Chief Whip of the Majority Party stood up here the day before yesterday and said that we should suspend the three-day rule relating to this and the House agreed. Now members come here and claim that they did not see the final draft of the Bill, it reached the third floor too late and things like that. We are talking about a few pages. This short Bill. One minor addition that was made in the committee was to include a section, section 11. That was the only change that was made. So, I do not think it is fair to this House to come here and complain about these issues. It is confusing, and I see that people are opposing merely for the sake of opposing.
Having said that, it is as a result of the Act that we passed last year that we are bringing this Mining Titles Registration Amendment Bill to the House. This Bill seeks to translate that promise into reality by ensuring that the Act that was passed in 1967, the Act of exclusion no longer applies. It was an Act of dispossession, an Act that stated that a Black person - they called us many names and I cannot quote those names now - could not have these rights. We are now able in our own name and right, to go and register a title and this title is bondable. We are able to raise funds to engage in mining. So, the difficulties caused by this Act are actually eliminated.
After we passed that Act last year the department engaged in a long process of consultation with stakeholders, including business. So the people who are actually involved in the mining industry are not complaining about what we have here today. On whose behalf is the DA complaining if not on their own behalf only? Out of that process of consultation a mining charter and a scorecard - I have copies of them here - were produced. If the DA did not complain, thank you very much.
These issues address a lot of things, including the seven pillars on human resource beneficiation. And beneficiation becomes vital because we have close to 59 different minerals in this country. We have to follow each one of them and say, what happened to the diamonds, the platinum, the gold and the manganese. Like Comrade Xingwana said, we are able to create a lot of jobs out of this process. The issue of employment equity becomes key, as does the living conditions of mine workers.
Lastly, I want to emphasise that our transformation agenda for the mining sector and liquid fuels is irreversible. Our victory here is certain and forever forwards, never backwards. Today once more this Parliament is called upon to pass this Bill, legislation which anchors the Act that we passed last year. The previous Act was based on racial discrimination and dispossession and we must get rid of it because it was passed by the old regime in 1967.
For the first time we are able to say in the charter itself that within 5 years 15% of the ownership of the mining industry must be transferred into the hands of Blacks or the historically disadvantaged. We are saying that within 10 years it must be not less than 26%. We are also appealing to the companies that are coming out to ensure that those who are on top take the moral responsibility to ensure that all the people in the communities are uplifted through this legislation.
In conclusion, to complete the cycle of transformation in the sector we are awaiting the introduction of the Royalties Bill and the Beneficiation Bill. We trust that Government will move expeditiously in order to complete this whole cycle of transformation.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF MINERALS AND ENERGY: Chairperson, I would like to take this opportunity to thank members of the committee for supporting this Bill and making sure that the question of mining becomes a reality in South Africa. But I would also like to take this opportunity to respond to Mr Bell and say that the Royalties Bill need not be an obstacle to the implementation of this particular Bill. This is a small amendment, it might be technical but it is very critical and important with regard to transformation and when he talks about representing some of the mining companies - I do not know which ones - I would accept the opinion of the member who said that they are representing themselves. He is representing the DA. That is not the view of the industry.
I think the DA needs to come to terms with the fact that the days when they thought they represented big business are gone. Big business has left them out because they are refusing to transform and change, hence, on the basis of that, they represent their jackets. So, gone are those days. And I also want to respond to the opinion that this Bill cannot be passed because there was not sufficient time - I agree with the hon Douglas who says that while it suited them in the past when we use the same language today it no longer suits them. They do not understand it anymore. It is amazing!
They are the coiners and the creators of this language. Now it is being implemented for them and to help them, they do not understand it anymore. It is their own English, I do not know what happened. I agree entirely that they need to understand their own terminologies which were meant for them but, in this case, they are not meant for the few but are meant to benefit every citizen of South Africa.
And part of that, as we celebrate Freedom Charter Day next week, but also as we celebrate the success of having passed the Mineral and Petroleum Resources Development Bill in this Parliament last year, shows a success and this particular technical amendment is minute and minor. It need not create problems for the members.
I must thank the IFP’s Mr Lucas for the continuous support he has shown to the department. The powers which have been vested in the Director-General are not vested in just him, they are exacerbated in consultation with the Director of Archives. It is very important for the member Mr Bell to understand that and it is vital to understand what that means. One also has to understand the law of South Africa. Information cannot be disposed of without consultation and some of those laws were created by the previous dispensation and they were good laws which we inherited and kept.
However, I disagree with the suggestion of the hon Bell that the information should be returned to the owner. That cannot happen! Why should it go back? That information belongs to the state and must be used for the benefit of South Africans and not individuals. So, we cannot take the information because he is saying the current dispensation must remain in store, because that is exactly what is happening.
All mineral rights and various issues are being kept all over the place. One of the challenges for our department and which is going to require a lot from us and will necessitate employing more people is to make sure that all the mining and mineral rights which are all over the place in private hands are brought to a central point to make sure that they are accessible to all South Africans.
So, we cannot go back. We are moving forwards, as the hon Oliphant indicated, never backwards! We do not have to go back to the past when it comes to holding information. [Applause.] Debate concluded.
Bill read a second time.
CONSIDERATION OF SEVENTH REPORT OF WORKING GROUP ON THE AFRICAN UNION
There was no debate.
Ms E THABETHE: Thank you, Chair. On behalf of the Chief Whip of the Majority Party, I move:
That the report be adopted.
Agreed to.
CONSIDERATION OF REQUEST FOR APPROVAL BY PARLIAMENT OF INTERNATIONAL CONVENTION ON PREVENTION AND PUNISHMENT OF CRIMES AGAINST INTERNATIONALLY
PROTECTED PERSONS, INCLUDING DIPLOMATIC AGENTS
Mr M A MAZIYA: Chairperson, hon members, the Portfolio Committee on Safety and Security considered and officially agreed on the ratification of the two conventions. Apologies from the Departments of Foreign Affairs and Justice and Constitutional Development were accompanied by the endorsement on the unanimous decision taken in the portfolio committee meeting. International obligations to become party to these conventions as soon as possible stem from South Africa’s commitment to combat terrorism in UN Resolution 1373 of 2001, the Nonaligned Movement and the OAU Convention on Terrorism.
Apart from being obliged as a UN and AU member state, South Africa is also formulating an Anti-Terrorism Bill which these two conventions form part of in Chapter 2, section 3 and Schedule 1, section d. The International Convention on Prevention and Punishment of Crimes against Internationally Protected Persons, including Diplomatic Agents, is aimed at the prevention of such terrorist acts as murder, kidnapping or other attacks on the person or the liberty of internationally protected persons; a violent attack upon the official premises, private accommodation or means of transport of internationally protected persons; any other threat or attempt to commit, any or participation as an accomplice to, such attacks; and the prosecution and punishment of the perpetrators.
Protected persons include the head of state and government ministers of foreign affairs when in foreign states. Representatives or officials of the state or agents of international organisations pursuant to international law become entitled to special protection - see Vienna Convention. The Bill has to look at criminalising attempts and accomplicity to commit offences against internationally protected persons.
This provision should also be applied to the International Convention against the Taking of Hostages. The International Convention against the Taking of Hostages aims at criminalising the seizure, detaining and threatening to kill, injure or continuance of detaining another person in order to compel the third party, an international intergovernmental organisation, a natural or judicial person, or group of persons to do or abstain from doing any act as an explicit or implicit condition for the release of hostages. Attempts to do this as well as participation as an accomplice to commit or attempt hostage taking are also criminalised. The International Convention against the Taking of Hostages does not apply when the offence is committed within a single state, when the hostage and the alleged offender are nationals of that state, and when the alleged offender is found in the territory of that state.
At an interdepartmental meeting comprising of representatives from the National Intelligence Agency, the South African Secret Service, the SAPS, the Department of Justice and Constitutional Development, and the Department of Foreign Affairs on international measures to combat terrorism, it was decided that the South African Police Service would co- ordinate comments and proposals from all relevant departments on South Africa’s proposed accession to these conventions.
The implications of ratification are that should these conventions be acceded to by Parliament, the Republic of South Africa will have regional as well as international obligations to fulfil concerning terrorist acts. The legislation concerning terrorist acts is addressed in the Anti- Terrorism Bill which is in the process of being discussed in the Portfolio Committee on Safety and Security. I therefore propose that this Parliament approve these two conventions. I thank you.
There was no debate.
International Convention on Prevention and Punishment of Crimes against Internationally Protected Persons, including Diplomatic Agents, approved.
INTERNATIONAL CONVENTION AGAINST THE TAKING OF HOSTAGES
(Consideration of request for approval by Parliament)
There was no debate. International Convention against the Taking of Hostages approved.
The House adjourned at 16:30. ____
ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS
ANNOUNCEMENTS:
National Assembly and National Council of Provinces:
- Assent by President in respect of Bills:
i. Bophuthatswana National Provident Fund Act Repeal Bill [B 13 -
2003] - Act No 13 of 2003 (assented to and signed by President on
14 June 2003); and
ii. Sefalana Employee Benefits Organisation Act Repeal Bill [B 14 -
2003] - Act No 14 of 2003 (assented to and signed by President on
14 June 2003).
- Introduction of Bills:
(1) The Minister of Health:
(i) National Health Bill [B 32 - 2003] (National Assembly -
sec 76) [Explanatory summary of Bill and prior notice of its
introduction published in Government Gazette No 23696 of 8
August 2002.]
Introduction and referral to the Portfolio Committee on Health of
the National Assembly, as well as referral to the Joint Tagging
Mechanism (JTM) for classification in terms of Joint Rule 160, on
20 June 2003.
In terms of Joint Rule 154 written views on the classification of
the Bills may be submitted to the Joint Tagging Mechanism (JTM)
within three parliamentary working days.
(2) The Minister of Environmental Affairs and Tourism:
On request of the Minister the following Bills were introduced by
the Select Committee on Land and Environmental Affairs in the
National Council of Provinces on 19 June 2003:
(i) National Environmental Management Amendment Bill [B 29 -
2003] (National Council of Provinces - sec 76) [Bill and
prior notice of its introduction published in Government
Gazette No 24935 of 30 May 2003].
(ii) National Environmental Management: Biodiversity Bill [B 30
- 2003] (National Council of Provinces - sec 76) [Bill and
prior notice of its introduction published in Government
Gazette No 24935 of 30 May 2003].
The Bills have been referred to the Select Committee on Land and
Environmental Affairs of the National Council of Provinces.
NOTE: These Bills were introduced by the Minister of
Environmental Afffairs and Tourism on 10 and 11 June 2003,
respectively, but he has since requested that they be
introduced in the National Council of Provinces.
As the Bills introduced today have not been printed again, the
information relating to the House of introduction and person
in charge of the Bill, as reflected on the front pages of the
Bills, is incorrect. As mentioned above the Bills have in
fact, on request of the Minister of Environmental Afffairs and
Tourism, been introduced in the National Council of Provinces
by the Select Committee on Land and Environmental Affairs.
National Assembly:
- Membership of Assembly:
The following member vacated his seat with effect from 17 June 2003:
Cassim, M F.
- Membership of Committees:
(1) The following changes have been made to the membership of Joint
Committees, viz:
Budget:
Appointed: Rabie, P J; Taljaard, R (Alt); Theron, J L.
Constitutional Review:
Appointed: Camerer, S M (Alt).
Defence:
Appointed: Selfe, J (Alt); Theron, J L (Alt).
Ethics and Members' Interests:
Appointed: Maluleke, D K (Alt).
Improvement of Quality of Life and Status of Children, Youth and
Disabled Persons:
Appointed: Morkel, C M (Alt).
Improvement of Quality of Life and Status of Women:
Appointed: Camerer, S M.
(2) The following changes have been made to the membership of
Standing Committees, viz:
Public Accounts:
Appointed: Bell, B G.
(3) The following changes have been made to the membership of
Portfolio Committees, viz:
Correctional Services:
Appointed: Van Deventer, F J.
Defence:
Appointed: Jankielsohn, R; Schalkwyk, P J (Alt).
Education:
Appointed: Doman, W P.
Environmental Affairs and Tourism:
Appointed: Koornhof, N J J van R; Le Roux, J W (Alt).
Finance:
Appointed: Rabie, P J; Theron, J L (Alt).
Foreign Affairs:
Appointed: McIntosh, G B D (Alt).
Health:
Appointed: Waters, M.
Home Affairs:
Appointed: Pretorius, I J.
Justice and Constitutional Development:
Appointed: Camerer, S M; Schmidt, H C (Alt).
Labour:
Appointed: Clelland-Stokes, N J (Alt); Lowe, C M; Redcliffe, C R.
Provincial and Local Government:
Appointed: Van Deventer, F J.
Public Enterprises:
Appointed: Morkel, C M.
Public Service and Administration:
Appointed: Ntuli, R S.
Public Works:
Appointed: Opperman, S E.
Safety and Security:
Appointed: Botha, A J (Alt); Gibson, D H M; Waters, M (Alt).
Social Development:
Appointed: Borman, G M; Clelland-Stokes, N J (Alt).
Trade and Industry:
Appointed: Theron, J L.
Water Affairs and Forestry:
Appointed: Nel, A H.
TABLINGS:
National Assembly:
- The Speaker:
The President of the Republic submitted the following letter to the
Speaker informing Parliament of the employment of the South African
National Defence Force:
EMPLOYMENT OF THE SOUTH AFRICAN NATIONAL DEFENCE FORCE IN COMPLIANCE
WITH THE INTERNATIONAL OBLIGATIONS OF THE REPUBLIC OF SOUTH AFRICA
TOWARDS THE UNITED NATIONS ORGANISATION
This serves to inform the National Assembly that I authorised the
employment of South African National Defence Force (SANDF) personnel in
order to fulfill the international obligations of the Republic of South
Africa towards the UN in The Eastern Democratic Republic of Congo as
part of disarmament, demobilization, re-integration, repatriation and
the resettlement programme of the UN.
This employment was authorised in accordance with the provisions of
Section 82(4)(b)(ii) read with Section 227(l)(b) and (c) of the
Constitution of the Republic of South Africa, 1993 (Act No 200 of
1993), [which Sections continue to be in force in terms of Item 24(l)
of Schedule 6 to the Constitution of the Republic of South Africa, 1996
(Act No 108 of 1996], read further with Section 3(2)(a)(iv) of the
Defence Act, 1957 (Act No 44 of 1957).
A total of 1 268 personnel, will be deployed for a period of one year,
making a provision for a rotation after every six months, as follows:
(a) 950 X Infantry Battalion Group
(b) 100 X Support Element
(c) 175 X Engineer Company
(d) 15 X Ferry Unit
(e) 12 X Water Well Drilling Unit
(f) 16 X Military Police
The expected costs for the deployment of personnel to the mission area
as from January 2003 to end of financial year 2005/2006 are as follows:
2003/2004
Personnel Allowances: R171,552
Initial Non-Inventory: R169,511
Logistic Support: R128,083
TOTAL COST R469,146
LESS 2003/2004 ALLOCATION R-28,731
To be Supplemented R440,415
2004/2005
Personnel Allowances: R171,552
Logistic Support: R178,936
TOTAL R350,488
The total estimated reimbursement from the UN for Initial Non-Inventory
Equipment, for Personnel Allowance and for Logistical Support will
amount to R200 million.
The National Treasury advised that the shortfall should be addressed
through the normal budgetary process.
I will also communicate this report to the Members of the National
Council of Provinces, and wish to request that you bring the contents
of this report to the notice of the National Assembly.
Regards
T M MBEKI
COMMITTEE REPORTS:
National Assembly:
-
Twenty-Third Report of the Standing Committee on Public Accounts, dated 18 June 2003:
The Standing Committee on Public Accounts, having been briefed by the National Treasury on the Memorandum on Changes in the Form of the 2003 Estimates of National Expenditure (ENE), referred to it, reports as follows:
-
The Committee notes the latest proposed changes in the form of the 2003 estimates of National Expenditure, and accepts the proposed changes.
-
In respect of future approvals for changes in the form of ENE, the Committee will review previous public accounts committee resolutions (viz. Second Report, 1981(2), referring to Resolution No. 2, Second Report, 1968), and will consider a possible role for the Joint Budget Committee and/or the Portfolio Committee on Finance in this regard.
-
The Committee will then accordingly make a recommendation to Parliament.
-
Report to be considered.