National Assembly - 24 June 2003
TUESDAY, 24 JUNE 2003 __
PROCEEDINGS OF THE NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
____
The House met at 14:04.
The Speaker took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayers or meditation.
ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS - see col 000.
TIMES ALLOCATED FOR PARTY RESPONSES TO MINISTERS' STATEMENTS
(Draft Resolution)
The DEPUTY CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Madam Speaker, on behalf of the Chief Whip of the Majority Party, I move the draft resolution printed in his name on the Order Paper, as follows: That, notwithstanding Rule 106, for the rest of 2003 the following times be allocated for party responses to Ministers’ statements:
African National Congress: 7 minutes; Democratic Alliance: 5 minutes; Inkatha Freedom Party: 3 minutes; New National Party: 2 minutes, and all other parties: 1 minute each.
Agreed to (African Christian Democratic Party dissenting).
QUESTIONS NOT TO HAVE PRECEDENCE ON 25 JUNE 2003
(Draft Resolution)
The DEPUTY CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Madam Speaker, on behalf of the Chief Whip of the Majority Party, I move the draft resolution printed in his name on the Order Paper, as follows:
That, notwithstanding the provisions of Rule 29(8), Questions shall not have precedence on Wednesday, 25 June 2003. Agreed to.
AD HOC COMMITTEE TO CONSIDER LEGISLATIVE PROPOSAL REVIEWING AUDITING
FUNCTION
(Draft Resolution)
The DEPUTY CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Madam Speaker, on behalf of the Chief Whip of the Majority Party, I move the draft resolution printed in his name on the Order Paper, as follows:
That the House establishes an ad hoc committee in terms of Rule 214 to consider the legislative proposal reviewing the public auditing function as submitted to the Speaker by the Audit Commission (Announcements, Tablings and Committee Reports, 2 June 2003, p 518), the committee to -
(1) consist of 19 members as follows: African National Congress: 11; Democratic Alliance: 2; Inkatha Freedom Party: 1; New National Party: 1; 4 members, plus alternates, from the other parties; (2) be mandated to introduce a bill, in accordance with Chapter 13 of the National Assembly Rules, on the objects contained in the legislative proposal;
(3) exercise those powers in Rule 138 that may assist it in carrying out its task; and
(4) complete its task by no later than Friday, 19 September 2003.
Agreed to.
CHANGES IN SA CONTAIN MESSAGE OF HOPE
(Member's Statement)
Mr V G SMITH (ANC): Madam Speaker, The Star newspaper on Friday, 20 June, published a letter by Dr Rob Reid from Craighall, Johannesburg. Dr Reid says he has recently returned home to South Africa for a three week visit, after an absence of more than three years. Dr Reid continues, in his letter, to recount all his impressions of the changes that have taken place, which he says contain a strong message of hope.
We agree with Dr Reid. This is what we mean when we say the tide has turned. Dr Reid advises further that we need to continue to intensify the fight against criminals, and finally he notes that his only twinge of disappointment is that we who live here seem to be unaware of the huge improvements occurring around us. We urge all South Africans to also tell their positive stories like Dr Reid, and become goodwill ambassadors of our country. Thank you. [Applause.]
DEPLOYMENT OF SA TROOPS IN DRC
(Member's Statement)
Adv H C SCHMIDT (DP): Madam Speaker, days after the threatened closure of 1 Military Hospital, it was reported that SANDF troops deployed in the DRC may not all have passed medical tests, as required by the United Nations regulations.
The SPEAKER: Hon Ministers, I suggest you may want to listen to this. [Interjections.]
Adv H C SCHMIDT: Thank you, Madam Speaker, it appears as if the medical services in the SANDF are in disarray, and this has extended to deployments in the DRC and Burundi. Despite denials by the Ministry, allegations continue to persist that all three confirmed medical evacuations have in fact been South African soldiers. United Nations regulations forbid the deployment of HIV-positive soldiers as part of United Nations operations.
What is more disconcerting is the fact that South Africa is to pay the amount of approximately R600 million for the deployment of troops to the DRC. Something must be wrong when the United Nations is only prepared to pay R200 million to United Nations deployment whilst the South African Government must foot the remaining R600 million. It does not make sense at all, and will discourage any troop-contributing nation to assist the United Nations on a voluntary basis in rendering assistance to a foreign country. The Minister should indicate to Parliament the great difference between the amount to be paid by the United Nations in comparison to the total cost of the deployments to be carried by the South African taxpayer. I thank you.
NATIONAL HEALTH BILL
(Member's Statement)
Dr R RABINOWITZ (IFP): Madam Speaker, the IFP views with great concern the requirements in the newly published National Health Bill for certificates- of-need licences to be issued by the director-general for all health activities. This is a limiting and destabilising requirement and moves health services further away from the route of public partnerships and incentives to improve levels of care in Government institutions.
Our health policy is already burdened by social engineering that is idealistic, but impractical. The belief that a director-general can have or acquire sufficient information to know exactly what is needed by which race or gender or economic group to equalise health care countrywide, is a naive dream. It opens the way for huge unintended consequences, patronage and corruption.
Furthermore, the need for all health establishments to subscribe to national norms and standards, instead of minimum norms and standards, introduces yet another form of centrist control. The Bill takes us backwards, and will further compromise accountability and efficiency in public health services. The routes of incentives and public-private partnerships to narrow the gap between public and private health services are the preferable routes.
The IFP calls on the public to oppose this direction before the Bill becomes law. Thank you.
HONORARY DEGREE TO FORMER GARDENER AT UCT
(Member's Statement)
Prof S S RIPINGA (ANC): Madam Speaker, former hospital sweeper and gardener, Mr Hamilton Naki, who worked alongside Prof Chris Barnard for many years, was recognised with an honorary degree: Master of Sciences in Medicine at the University of Cape Town, on 21 June 2003. Naki also worked in the laboratory where he learned to anaesthetise a variety of animals. He did this work until his retirement, while being registered as a gardener. Despite years of paramedical work, he was awarded only a gardener’s pension. Naki’s story emphasises the need for us to deal unreservedly with the racist legacy that continues to characterise our society.
The ANC congratulates Hamilton Naki on receiving this award from the University of Cape Town. However, the ANC acknowledges that his work was not adequately compensated by the hospital where he worked for so many years, and this remains a challenge. I thank you. [Applause.]
ASSASSINATING THE CHARACTER OF PREMIER M VAN SCHALKWYK
(Member's Statement)
Mr A Z A VAN JAARSVELD (New NP): Madam Speaker, from the results of the latest Markinor polling it is clear that the DA has failed in their attempt to assassinate the character of Premier Marthinus van Schalkwyk of the Western Cape. In this poll, Premier Van Schalkwyk emerged as the top candidate for premiership of the province. The support for Van Schakwyk has clearly indicated that the New NP is truly representative of all South Africans.
He is the first-choice Premier for 40% of coloured people in the Western Cape, 20% of black people and 23% of white people. This confirms that the DA has been underestimating the intelligence of South African voters. This also proves that the DA’s allegation that Premier Van Schalkwyk is an illegitimate Premier is unfounded. Theuns Botha, the DA leader in the Western Cape, is favoured as Premier by only 6% of the coloured people, 1% of black people and a very predictable 18% of white people. Sadly, this also proves that the racist message of the DA by spreading fear has been successful in some parts of the white community.
The good news is that Van Schalkwyk is the first-choice Premier of 28% of DA supporters. This is bigger than the support Botha gets from his own people as a potential Premier. The results show clearly that Botha is an illegitimate leader in the Western Cape. This gives an opportunity to the DA to get rid of Mr Botha, who also called his own leader, the hon Leon, ``politically childish’’. Maybe the hon Leon should consider himself as a possible candidate for the leadership in the Western Cape or fall back on the infamous Mr Morkel. [Interjections.] [Applause.]
PERSONAL DEBTS
(Member's Statement)
Mrs R M SOUTHGATE (ACDP): Madam Speaker, the Reserve Bank puts household debt at 51% of household income, while over five months in the last year more than 130 000 summonses for unpaid debts were issued. A recent study has found that this is costing the economy about R500 million per month, with 3 000 individuals facing debt judgments each month. This problem is most evident among low- and middle-income earners, where increases in education, medical and household costs have outstripped the rise in salaries over the past five years.
Almost half of those facing debt judgment find themselves in trouble for failing to repay money lent to them by microlenders. The cost of furniture bought on account, municipal and other accounts are also adding to this strain.
The ACDP calls for a limit on garnishee orders whereby money is taken off employees’ pay cheques to settle debts. This will prevent people from falling into a never-ending spiral of debt which can lead to social instability and fraud.
We urge Government to offer incentives to employers to educate staff in financial matters and expand free education and training facilities to offer financial education programmes.
It is unacceptable that retail creditors ignore a buyer’s credit record. Strict credit limits must be imposed to prevent large amounts of credit being offered to those who do not have the means to repay it. Lending laws must be adhered to and we must advise that retailers offering credit must explain fully to the buyer the implications of repayment.
CONVICTION OF CHILD RAPISTS
(Member's Statement)
Ms N B GXOWA (ANC): Madam Speaker, the increase in the average rate of convictions of child rapists has reportedly been confirmed by the national prosecution office. It means that more and more child rapists are finding themselves behind bars. To facilitate this positive development, the ANC believes that people who commit these hideous crimes must be given harsher sentences.
We commend the achievements of the Departments of Justice and of Social Development in this regard. We call on all of our people, communities, families, cultural and religious institutions to protect and advance the rights of children and to report to the police all those involved in destroying the beautiful future of humanity, namely our children. We say to the rapists: We love our children, do not destroy them. [Applause.]
MOB JUSTICE AND VIGILANTISM
(Member's Statement)
Mr J T MASEKA (UDM): Madam Speaker, we have received with dismay the news that in the past three days four people died as a result of vigilante actions in the Nyanga area.
At the weekend alleged train robbers were dragged from a shebeen in Kosovo informal settlement near Phillipi, stripped, stoned to death and then set alight. This follows on another necklacing incident that have plagued the lives of people in Vosloorus in the East Rand, and in Bram Fischerville in the past few days.
It is cause for grave concern that these acts of cruelty and mob justice seem to be on the increase. Because of the failure to deal with crime, South Africans who are largely peace-loving and nonviolent are no longer willing to sit around idly whilst their possessions are stolen and their loved ones raped and murdered.
The community knew the recent necklace victims as they were the alleged members of a gang of thieves who terrorised commuters boarding trains in and around the Peninsula. A radical rethink on crime prevention is required if we are to avoid the spectre of mob justice in our communities. Antivigilantism campaigns will be just a futile exercise until the Government does more to protect its citizens. If action is not taken to avoid these cases, people will assume that the Government does not care and does not have the capacity to deal with the problem.
VIGILANTE JUSTICE
(Member's Statement)
Mr J P I BLANCHÉ: In recent weeks, kangaroo court killings took place on the east Rand and the local newspaper did some research to find out why these killings took place. I wish to quote from the findings of the newspaper:
Two bodies were found next to N3 outside Vosloorus, but as one Vosloorus resident who would prefer to remain anonymous told The Advertiser, the police and the South African Justice system cannot cope with criminals. The police just cannot do enough, the criminals are not scared because most of the time they do not get caught. And when they do, they do not go to prison. They get let off, come back and rob us again and again and again.
According to the man the vigilante justice system, be it brutal, is the only way they can fight criminals. We are going to burn them, he said, those two men were lucky because they could not find tyres or they would have necklaced them. He believed that mob justice is the only way to scare criminals. We will burn them until they stop, he insisted.
The public outcry is clear, they have lost faith in the criminal justice system. Can the ANC reassure South Africans that there is a solution to the crime problem, and will they have at some stage in the near future be able to say that they have it under control and will reduce the crime?
LAND AND LAND DISPOSSESSION
(Draft Resolution)
Mrs R A NDZANGA (ANC): During this month of June, we commemorate the 90th anniversary of the 1913 Land Act. We commend the Department of Agriculture and Land Affairs on its continuing efforts, aimed at reversing the 90 years of racial land dispossessions. The Land Act of 19 June 1913, together with various pieces of legislation, was used by racist regimes of the past to dispossess millions of Africans of their rights to land.
The crippling impact of the past policies, among other things the entrenchment of poverty and underdevelopment of the dispossessed, demands that we move at the fastest possible speed in addressing the legacy of forced removals, landlessness and homelessness. The development of viable rural economic projects is part of a broader strategy to push back the frontiers of poverty. We urge our communities to participate in the IDPs to ensure that rural economies benefit.
ACACIA PARK AS MICROCOSM OF SOUTH AFRICA
(Draft Resolution)
Mr C M LOWE (DA): Madam Speaker, crime is rampant in Acacia parliamentary village just as it is elsewhere in South Africa. The difference is that in Acacia Park we have a 24-hour police guard and an onsight public works management office. Security on the gate is cursory and the response time for calls to help is dismal given the short distances involved. There are reports of illegal tenants but the occupancy audit which is finally being carried out after months of delay is not checking the tenants are who they claim to be. Perhaps everyone renting a unit should be required to sign an affidavit stating who is authorised to live in their house; then if they sublet they can be held to account.
The police complain that when suspects are identified who were related to MPs, they are pressured by the MPs to drop the cases or the complainants withdraw the charge to protect the perpetrators. If the police are giving in to this pressure, it is corruption. This must be exposed and action taken. Acacia Park is a microcosm of South Africa: Rampant crime, inadequate policing and political interference to ensure inaction. It is unacceptable.
THE NEW PLASTIC BAGS AND RELATED ISSUES
(Draft Resolution) Prof H NGUBANE (IFP): Madam Speaker, the replacement of the old plastic bag, which was a hazard to the environment, with the new thicker, more environmentally friendly plastic bag was necessary to stop the damage that was being caused by the old bags. There are, however, concerns and issues that were raised and need to be addressed.
Among these is the issue of the increase in shoplifting, but potentially of far greater consequence will be the loss of thousands of jobs in the retail and manufacturing sectors. In order to put a stop to this potential problem, as well as sorting out the other issues and concerns that have been expressed, all the relevant role-players need to work together. We have to make a success of the implementation of this law and iron out all the problems that have been experienced because it will be to our benefit in the long run.
ANC's SALUTE TO YOUNG FARMER
(Member's Statement)
Mr P A GERBER (ANC): Madam Speaker, the dawn of our new democracy has unfortunately not led to the end of racism in our rainbow nation. However, the ANC salutes brave young people such as the young Afrikaner farmer from the small village called Tom Burke in the Limpopo province who had the courage of his convictions to stand up and expose the racist deed concocted by the organisers of the yearly Miss Marula Beauty Competition. The organisers cancelled the beauty contest after they discovered that two young black girls had entered as contestants.
We salute Mr Gerard Vos also known as Ntsini in Tswana, who, amidst great pressure from his tightknit farmer community, risking the possibility of being alienated, still felt so strongly about this act of injustice and blatant racism that he exposed it. The ANC is committed to building a nonracial, nonsexist South Africa and calls on all communities to emulate people such as Mr Gerard Vos. [Applause.] Ke a leboga, Gerhard Vos [I thank you, Gerhard Vos].
Down with racism, down!
HON MEMBERS: Down! [Applause.]
REDEPLOYMENT OF ADDITIONAL OFFICERS
(Member's Statement)
Mr J SCHIPPERS (New NP): Speaker, in the Western Cape, and across South Africa, we must protect our communities, our streets, our homes and our families from the harm of crime and violence. Therefore, the New National Party welcomes the announcement made by the Acting Deputy Provincial Commissioner, Andre Pruis, with regard to the redeployment of additional officers in the Western Cape.
The additional police will assist the 302 officers brought in from other provinces last week to fight crime, mainly on the Cape Flats. The additional officers will include police from the Dog Unit with sniffer dogs from other provinces; as well as 27 detectives who will assist with job training and other issues. A further eight serious and violent crime unit detectives - four from the Eastern Cape and four from the national head office - will also be deployed in Khayelitsha.
Madam Speaker, the New National Party would also like to congratulate the SAPS on the success of the Operation Tswikila. A total of 2 212 people were arrested in the Cape Peninsula during this operation. Of the 2 212 arrests, 974 were involved in serious crime such as murder, rape and armed robbery.
I thank you. [Applause.]
HIV/AIDS IN THE SANDF
(Minister's Response)
The MINISTER OF DEFENCE: Madam Speaker, I just want to put some facts to the House. First of all, just to say to the House that 1 Military Hospital in Pretoria is the Level 4 United Nations Hospital for Southern Africa. This means that all members of the United Nations’ missions deployed in the region are evacuated to 1 Military Hospital if they require attention. In 2002 and 2003 the position has been that five members of the South African National Defence Force, SANDF, were evacuated to 1 Military Hospital - I say five in 2002 and three in 2003. None of them, and I underline it, not one of those eight people was an HIV/Aids case. The records are at the 1 Military Hospital, and they can be found.
There is a particular case of one soldier, that now makes the number nine, who was evacuated from the Democratic Republic of Congo, the DRC, and who was a HIV/Aids case - he was terminally ill. He was not from South Africa, but from one of the other countries, and I am not free to reveal the name of the country. Now, for members of the South African Parliament to make statements that disparage the standing of the SANDF when we have clearly said here that South Africa never deploys abroad any member that is HIV positive, is really irresponsible on our part because we become instruments of propaganda against the SANDF.
There is one case that is of course correct. It is of one member, who was not mentally healthy, who did go out of the country, and who was actually not officially deployed. He smuggled himself into the unit, was picked up in Burundi four days later and was returned to the country. He left on the 11th, was detected on the 15th and was back in the country on that same day. That was a mental case - not an extreme case, but a case nevertheless. [Interjections.] I am just putting these issues before the House, because anybody who has ever run a big institution, like a prison, will know that, even from Robben Island, there have been cases where people smuggled themselves out. That has happened.
Now with regard to the issue of oxygen. None of our deployments run short of supplies. None. What we are busy with in the eastern Congo is that we are making a new deployment. Some of the supplies are already there; some of the equipment is already there and some of it is on its way. The transportation of equipment and supplies is the responsibility of the United Nations in order to save the budget of the nation. The UN commissioned a company to move those things. They resolve to take the equipment by sea, and then airlift it into Bunia and Kindu. They were a day late. Some elements in the SANDF, who are not loyal to this Government, smuggle information out like that, and create the impression that there is a lack of supplies and rations. They manage to get the word through to the opposition, and the opposition picks up this inaccurate information, and pass it on to the country. [Time expired.]
The SPEAKER: Hon Minister, your time for a statement has expired.
The MINISTER OF DEFENCE: I thought, Madam Speaker, that there is a second matter.
The SPEAKER: No, I gave you time to make up for the fact that you missed out.
The MINISTER OF DEFENCE: I will give you the budget issue next week.
GARNISHEE ORDERS
(Minister's Response)
The MINISTER FOR JUSTICE AND CONSTITUTIONAL DEVELOPMENT: Madam Speaker, thank you very much. I am responding to the ACDP’s call for a limit on garnishee orders.
Madam Speaker, we cannot make an undertaking that we are going to place a limit, or limits, on garnishee orders. Garnishee orders is a very important means of ensuring that people honour their debt. What we can certainly undertake to do is to conduct an investigation of the use or abuse, or misuse, of the garnishee orders by a whole host of people, including public servants within the Department of Justice. We will make that undertaking, and indeed we will conduct that investigation, because quite a number of very important people, including my colleague the Minister of Finance, has brought this to our attention. But this is all we are undertaking to do. LAND REDISTRIBUTION
(Minister's Response)
The MINISTER FOR AGRICULTURE AND LAND AFFAIRS: Thank you, Madam Speaker. I am responding to the statement made by the hon Ndzanga.
Just to say that, indeed, we are happy that our Government has sought to redress the impact of the 1913 Land Act in the way in which it has committed the resources to ensure that we can speedily resolve those challenges that a majority of our people face. It would also ensure that, at least, those landowners who are so affected can also be relieved of waiting for longer. It is, again, our commitment that we will do whatever is necessary to ensure that we are able to speedily resolve all the outstanding claims of restitution. It would also ensure that we continue to consider all other matters of land redistribution and that, indeed, we can reach an equitable and a just land dispensation in South Africa.
To this affect, it is often said that some of the nongovernmental organisations, such as the Surplus People’s Project, found it fit to actually question and challenge the commitment of Government, particularly through the Budget for land reform - that this Government has not done enough towards reversing the legacy of our past. I want to say to this House, the Budget, as it was tabled, and as it has been tabled in the past, is a clear indication of how much this Government has committed itself towards reversing the impact of land dispossession in the country. I thank you, Madam Speaker.
The SPEAKER: Hon members, we’ve had three ministerial responses. The Minister of Defence announced that he will deal with the budget issue next week. I thought I should tell you that the House will not be in session. [Laughter.] I take it you don’t want to address an empty House.
The MINISTER OF DEFENCE: Madam Speaker, I understand from my colleagues that they will not be addressing the House, and we will not use our full quota, so I will take the remaining time. The SPEAKER: No, you won’t take the remaining time, you’re allowed your one- and-a-half minutes for the outstanding question. So you may have the one and a half minutes for the outstanding question.
The MINISTER OF DEFENCE: May I do so, Madam Speaker?
The SPEAKER: Yes, you may.
BUDGET: DEPLOYMENT OF SANDF
(Minister's Response)
The MINISTER OF DEFENCE: With regard to the issue of the budget, again, I think, we’ve addressed the issue of the budget before. We said to the House that, as a general approach to the budget, Defence does not budget for unforeseen expenditure. That is for reasons which have been explained, and which cannot be challenged. Whenever a commitment is in place, we are then entitled to budget for it. What has happened in the DRC in the recent period is that ceasefire agreements have been reached and processes arrived at, which have increased the size of the deployment that was already in place. This has increased the need to budget for it, and there have been - as a result of the tensions in the eastern Congo - which resulted in fresh deployments being required. That is all unforeseen, and the United Nations will have to meet its obligations once we have submitted the necessary budgets. They then adjust in keeping with that.
The stories in the newspapers - that we are in disarray, that we have not done proper budgeting, and so on - fail to understand the internal operation of the budget of missions of this nature. Of course, the process is being handled now by the Treasury, and we will be in a position to show that these missions, having now come as fresh deployments, cost so much. The UN has a specific amount to carry, and the country has a specific amount to carry. I don’t think it is a proper thing to alarm the country by suggesting that we don’t know what we’re doing, and that there is a deep hole into which we are throwing the electorate’s money. I thank you, Madam Speaker. The SPEAKER: Thank you, Minister, and thank you for your brevity.
APPROPRIATION BILL
(Decision of Question on Votes and Schedules)
The SPEAKER: Members, I wish to thank parties for advising the staff on the Votes on which they wish to make declarations and on which they will record objections. The information will greatly assist in processing this afternoon. I will put each Vote and ask parties for Declarations of Vote as they have indicated. After this, I will put the Vote for Decision. By agreement, Declarations will be limited to two minutes. The bells will be rung for one minute for the first division on a Vote, but for only 15 seconds on subsequent divisions.
Vote No 1 - The Presidency - put.
Declarations of vote:
Mr W J SEREMANE: Madam Speaker, last week the Leader of the Opposition strongly suggested that we focus on the real, pertinent issues of job creation, crime prevention and the scourge of Aids. As usual, the President met this with the stock response of race, conveniently ignoring tribalism in its many ethnic nostrums. Unfortunately President Mbeki’s flawed methods of debate are too well known. He attributes words and motives to his critics that are simply not there. He therefore, like Don Quixote, attacks his own straw men - which in reality are phantoms of his imagination - and he does not engage in a real debate advanced by his opponents and critics. [Interjections.] Pres Mbeki made a fundamentally fallacious, if not outrageous and undemocratic accusation. He said of millions and millions of South Africans who legitimately opposed his party and differ with his presidency, that:
they do not see a role for themselves as active and conscious participants in the process of national reconciliation.
It is time to get out of this dead-end street and onto the high road …
Mr M J ELLIS: Madam Speaker, we have a very long afternoon ahead of us and if the ANC is going to behave like this from the very first speech, I would urge that we have some decorum in the House.
The SPEAKER: Order! Hon member, please take your seat.
Mr W J SEREMANE: Unpalatable. It is time to get out of this dead-end street and onto the high road of sustained economic growth, real job creation and a massive campaign to combat Aids and fight crime. It is the President’s failure to address these issues in a real and inclusive fashion that gives us no choice but to oppose this Budget Vote and to call for a division on this Vote. [Applause.]
Dr B L GELDENHUYS: Speaker, die toespraak wat die agb President gehou het tydens die debat oor die finale verslag van die WVK was ‘n baie belangrike mylpaal op die pad van versoening in Suid-Afrika, maar versoening is ‘n proses wat nie oornag bereik kan word nie en waaraan elke landsburger aktief moet werk om dit ‘n werklikheid te maak. Veral politici het ook ‘n verantwoordelikheid om versoening te laat slaag. En wat ons nie kan bekostig nie, is dat in die aanloop tot die volgende verkiesing, polarisasie egter gaan verskerp, in plaas van om versoening ‘n werklikheid te maak. En ongelukkig as ‘n mens oordeel aan die trant van die DA tydens die debat oor die President se begrotingspos, is dit presies wat gaan gebeur. [Tussenwerpsels.] Die Nuwe NP ondersteun hierdie begrotingspos van die President. [Applous.] (Translation of Afrikaans paragraph follows.)
[Dr B L GELDENHUYS: Speaker, the speech made by the hon President during the debate regarding the final report of the TRC was a very important milestone on the road to reconciliation in South Africa, but reconciliation is a process that cannot be achieved overnight and something which every citizen should actively work towards making a reality. Politicians specifically also have a responsibility to make reconciliation succeed. And what we cannot afford is that in the run-on to the next election, polarisation, however, is going to increase, instead of reconciliation being made a reality. And unfortunately if one judges by the manner of the DA during the debate about the President’s Budget Vote, this is exactly what is going to happen. [Interjections.] The New NP supports the President’s Budget Vote. [Applause.]]
The DEPUTY CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Madam Speaker, the ANC supports Budget Vote No 1, the Presidency. The key challenges facing South African society are, firstly, to pursue economic growth, development and redistribution in such a way as to improve the people’s quality of life and ensure that the frontiers of poverty are pushed back.
Secondly, it is to deepen democracy and the culture of human rights and mobilise the people to take an active part in changing their lives for the better. Thirdly, the key challenge is to transform the state machinery to serve the cause of social change and ensure that the needs of the people are put first. Fourthly, to ensure Africa’s Renaissance and to build a new world order.
The presidency under the leadership of Pres Thabo Mbeki has been at the forefront of ensuring that all these challenges are addressed. The presidency has done this by providing leadership, co-ordination of the activities of Government, resulting in better planning, and service delivery. Initiatives such as the urban renewal and integrated rural development programmes are but some of the examples of this approach.
Through the work of the National Youth Commission, the Office on the Status of Women and the Office on the Status of Disabled People, the presidency has assisted in co-ordinating and focusing the work of Government as a whole, and addresses the issues of particularly vulnerable sectors of our society who were affected most by apartheid oppression. Through the imbizo programme the presidency has assisted in bringing Government closer to the people and emphasize the need of the people to play an active role in improving their own lives. The presidency has had a huge impact on the international terrain through our country’s positive contributions in Africa and abroad. These interventions have contributed to the fight against poverty through seeking to create peace and thus the possibility for economic growth. We support this Vote and hope that this Appropriation Bill will further assist the presidency in its quest to provide strategic leadership and ensure that Government meets the needs of all our people and delivers on its commitment to a better life for all. I thank you. [Applause.]
Division demanded.
The House divided:
AYES - 246: Abrahams, T; Abram, S; Ainslie, A R; Arendse, J D; Asmal, A K; Aucamp, C; Balfour, B M N; Baloyi, S F; Bapela, O; Benjamin, J; Beukman, F; Bhengu, F; Biyela, B P; Blaas, A; Bloem, D V; Bogopane, H I; Booi, M S; Botha, N G W; Buthelezi, M G; Cachalia, I M; Chalmers, J; Chiba, L; Chikane, M M; Cindi, N V; Cwele, S C; Davies, R H; Diale, L N; Didiza, A T; Dithebe, S L; Ditshetelo, P H K; Dlali, D M; Dlamini, B O; Doidge, G Q M; Douglas, B M; Du Toit, D C; Duma, N M; Durand, J; Dyani, M M Z; Erwin, A; Ferreira, E T; Fihla, N B; Fraser-Moleketi, G J; Frolick, C T; Geldenhuys, B L; George, M E; Gerber, P A; Gillwald, C E; Gogotya, N J; Goniwe, M T; Goosen, A D; Gous, S J; Greyling, C H F; Gumede, D M; Gxowa, N B; Hanekom, D A; Hendrickse, P A C; Herandien, C B; Hlaneki, C J; Hlengwa, M W; Hogan, B A; Holomisa, S P; Jassat, E E; Jeebodh, T; Joemat, R R; Jordan, Z P; Kannemeyer, B W; Kasrils, R; Kati, J Z; Kgarimetsa, J J; Kgauwe, Q J; Kgwele, L G; Komphela, B M; Koornhof, G W; Kota, Z A; Landers, L T; Lekgoro, M K; Lekota, M G P; Lobe, M C; Lockey, D; Louw, J T; Louw, S K; Ludwabe, C I; Mabandla, B S; Mabe, L L; Mabena, D C; Mabuyakhulu, V D; Mabuza, D D; Madikiza, G; Maduna, P M; Magashule, E S; Magazi, M N; Magubane, N E; Magwanishe, G B; Mahomed, F; Maimane, D S; Makasi, X C; Malahlela, M J; Maloney, L; Malumise, M M; Manie, M S; Manuel, T A; Mapisa-Nqakula, N N; Mars, I; Martins, B A D; Masala, M M; Maserumule, F T; Mashimbye, J N; Masithela, N H; Masutha, M T; Mathibela, N F; Matlanyane, H F; Matsepe-Casaburri, I F; Matthews, V J G; Mayatula, S M; Maziya, M A; Mbadi, L M; Mbombo, N D; Mbuyazi, L R; Mdladlana, M M S; Mentor, M P; Mfundisi, I S; Middleton, N S; Mkono, D G; Mlangeni, A; Mngomezulu, G P; Mnumzana, S K; Moatshe, M S; Modise, T R; Moeketse, K M; Mofokeng, T R; Mogoba, M S; Mohlala, R J B; Mokoena, A D; Molebatsi, M A; Moloi, J; Moloto, K A; Montsitsi, S D; Moonsamy, K; Moosa, M V; Morobi, D M; Moropa, R M; Morutoa, M R; Mothoagae, P K; Motubatse-Hounkpatin, S D; Mpahlwa, M B; Mpaka, H M; Mpontshane, A M; Mshudulu, S A; Mthembu, B; Mtsweni, N S; Mudau, N W; Mufamadi, F S; Mulder, P W A; Mzondeki, M J G; Nair, B; Nash, J H; Ndzanga, R A; Nefolovhodwe, P J; Nel, A C; Nene, N M; Newhoudt-Druchen, W S; Ngaleka, E; Ngcengwane, N D; Ngcobo, N; Ngculu, L V J; Ngubane, H; Ngubeni, J M; Nhlengethwa, D G; Njobe, M A A; Nqodi, S B; Ntombela, S H; Ntshulana-Bhengu, N R; Ntuli, B M; Ntuli, J T; Ntuli, M B; Ntuli, S B; Nxumalo, S N; Olckers, M E; Olifant, D A A; Oliphant, G G; Oosthuizen, G C; Pahad, A G H; Pahad, E G; Phadagi, M G; Phala, M J; Phohlela, S; Pieterse, R D; Pillay, R; Radebe, B A; Radebe, J T; Rajbally, S; Ramakaba-Lesiea, M M; Ramgobin, M; Ramodike, M N; Ramotsamai, C M P; Rasmeni, S M; Reid, L R R; Rhoda, R T; Ripinga, S S; Robertsen, M O; Roopnarain, U; Rwexana, S P; Saloojee, E (Cassim); Schippers, J; Schneeman, G D; Schoeman, E A; Schoeman, R S; September, C C; September, R K; Shabalala, T; Sibande, M P; Sibiya, M S M; Sigcau, S N; Sigwela, E M; Sikakane, M R; Sisulu, L N; Skhosana, W M; Skweyiya, Z S T; Smith, P F; Smith, V G; Solo, B M; Sonjica, B P; Sosibo, J E; Sotyu, M M; Southgate, R M; Swart, S N; Tarr, M A; Tinto, B; Tolo, L J; Tshabalala- Msimang, M E; Tshwete, P; Turok, B; Twala, N M; Vadi, I; Van der Merwe, A S; Van Jaarsveld, A Z A; Van Wyk, A; Van Wyk, A; Van Wyk, J F; Van den Heever, R P Z; Van der Merwe, S C; Vezi, T E; Woods, G G; Xulu, M; Zita, L; Zondo, R P.
NOES - 35: Andrew, K M; Bell, B G; Blanché, S; Borman, G; Camerer, S; Da Camara, M L; Delport, J T; Doman, W; Eglin, C W; Ellis, M J; Farrow, S B; Grobler, G A J; Kalyan, S; Koornhof, N J; Le Roux, W; Lee, T D; Lowe, C M; Maluleke, D K; Millen, T E; Moorcroft, E K; Ntuli, R S; Opperman, S E; Rabie, P; Redcliffe, C R; Schalkwyk, P; Semple, J A; Seremane, J; Smuts, M; Steele, M H; Swart, P S; Taljaard, R; Theron, J L; Van Deventer, F; Van Niekerk, K; Waters, M.
Vote accordingly agreed to.
Vote No 2 - Parliament - put and agreed to.
Vote No 3 - Foreign Affairs - put and agreed to (National Action dissenting).
Mr C AUCAMP: Madam Speaker, on a point of order: The hon Ramodike’s name is indicated at his seat, but another member’s name is on the voting machine. Now he is afraid he is voting in another member’s name. Can the table just assure us whether Mr Ramodike’s name is there or not? [Interjections.] The SPEAKER: Order! Hon members, we will establish what Mr Ramodike, as distinct from the other member, wished to vote. If you would later on indicate to the table. The vote will be corrected accordingly.
Vote No 4 - Home Affairs - put.
Declarations of vote:
Mr S PILLAY: Madam Speaker, we are going to vote in favour of the budget. However, we emphasise the fact that we are not satisfied with the manner in which this department is managed. It is one of the departments that will, in future, enjoy the benefits of close scrutiny, not only by the New NP, but of all responsible citizens of our country.
So disappointed were we that there was a serious and considerable discussion about opposing this Budget Vote. We, therefore, call upon the Minister to take very careful note of this declaration and to take appropriate measures to deal with the vast problem that plagues this department.
Undoubtedly, the Department of Home Affairs is one that everyone has a vested interest in. Our interest is that it serves the purpose for which it is intended. That is not happening. To list a few problems, there is a chronic shortage of staff and an alarming exodus of trained and skilled staff. Citizens have to wait for excessive periods to obtain enabling documents. Others have waited since 1996, when they first applied. Some have reached the age of 60 and they do not have enabling documents.
In a number of rural areas, there are no facilities to make applications. One finds false IDs, passports and other documents are all over the country. People that appear to commit these crimes cannot be apprehended, for whatever reason. That is by the department’s own confession. Thank you.
Ms N S MATHIBELA: Madam Speaker, the ANC supports the Budget Vote for Home Affairs. We note with appreciation, the fact that the budget has been increasing in real terms, over the last six years.
However, we also note the fact that the budget allocation is less than what the department had requested from the National Treasury. This is a trend across all the departments of Government. This is what the country can generate in terms of revenue and has to be equitably distributed among the competing priorities of our country.
We call upon all patriots to redouble their efforts in assisting the Minister of Home Affairs, the Deputy Minister, the director-general and the department in their effort to discharge efficient service to the South African public.
Our common mission is to make South Africa a winning nation, and for this to be realised, we should spare neither effort nor strength in making this a reality. Thank you. [Applause.]
Vote No 4 agreed to.
Vote No 5 - Provincial and Local Government - put.
Declarations of vote: Mnr G A J GROBLER: Speaker, die DA steun nié die begrotingspos vir die Departement vir Provinsiale en Plaaslike Regering nie. [Tussenwerpsels.]
Die Minister en sommige van die personeel in sy departement bly in gebreke om daadwerklik aandag aan plaaslike regering te gee. Die lang tye wat die Minister buite die landsgrense bestee, dui ook op sy onverskillige houding jeens sy pligte as Minister vir Provinsiale en Plaaslike Regering.
Eerstens is die Kommissie vir die Bevordering en Beskerming van die Regte van Kultuur-, Godsdiens- en Taalgemeenskappe nie binne ‘n aanvaarbare tyd in werking gestel nie.
Tweedens word daar nie behoorlike opleiding deur middel van Seta aan munisipaliteite verskaf nie. Kundige bestuurslui ontbreek in die meeste ANC/Nuwe NP-beheerde munisipaliteite as gevolg van die gebrekkige opleiding en onoordeelkundige aanstellings, en lei daartoe dat munisipaliteite nie in staat is om behoorlike invordering van hulle debiteure te doen nie. Agterstallige skulde eskaleer daagliks en ‘n bedrag van R24 miljard is reeds aan munisipaliteite verskuldig, met die sentrale en provinsiale regerings as die grootste wanbetalers teen ‘n bedrag van ongeveer R2 miljard.
Derdens is die Minister en sy departement nie in staat om beheer uit te oefen oor die korrekte aanwending van fondse wat jaarliks deur die sentrale Regering aan munisipaliteite toegeken word nie. Dit word weerspieël in die gekwalifiseerde ouditverslae van meer as 70% van ons munisipaliteite. Hierdie swak finansiële bestuur veroorsaak dat fondse aangewend word vir ander doeleindes as wat die sentrale Regering - minister Manuel, jy gee dit vir hulle - se bedoeling met die skenkings is, naamlik dat hierdie geld aangewend moet word vir die armstes van die armes. [Tussenwerpsels.] Dit word nié gedoen nie. Dankie. (Translation of Afrikaans speech follows.)
[Mr G A J GROBLER: Speaker, the DA does not support this Vote for the Department of Provincial and Local Government. [Interjections.]
The Minister and some of the staff in his department are failing to give active attention to local government. The long periods spent by the Minister outside the borders of the country also indicate his indifferent attitude towards his duties as Minister for Provincial and Local Government.
Firstly, the Commission for the Promotion and Protection of the Rights of Cultural, Religious and Language Communities was not implemented within an acceptable time.
Secondly, no proper training is being provided to municipalities by means of Seta. Experienced managerial staff are lacking in most ANC/New NP- controlled municipalities as a result of the insufficient training and injudicious appointments, and this results in municipalities not being able to do proper collections from their debtors. Outstanding debts are escalating daily and an amount of R24 billion is already owed to municipalities, with the central and provincial governments as the largest non-payers at an amount of approximately R2 billion.
Thirdly, the Minister and his department are not able to exercise control over the correct utilisation of funds which are allocated to municipalities by the central Government annually. This is reflected in the qualified audit reports of more than 70% of our municipalities. This poor financial management results in funds being utilised for purposes other than those intended by the central Government - Minister Manuel, you give it to them - namely that this money must be utilised for the poorest of the poor. [Interjections.] This is not being done. Thank you.]
Mr P F SMITH: Madam Speaker, the IFP will be supporting this Vote, but we do want to use this opportunity to indicate our unhappiness to the Government and, of course, to the ANC as the ruling party, about the position of local government in respect of the communal law areas of the country.
I think it’s important to state that we are, in fact, in agreement with much of the system of local government itself. We understand the problems facing local government and we appreciate that it’s still a new system and is still in its infancy. We understand this new legislation which, in all likelihood, we will be supporting. The Minister of Finance’s Management Bill, for example, before us, and we understand that there’s a ten to 15 year horizon before we can see the transformation of local government through to its conclusion.
So, there’s much we do agree with in the system of local government. Having said that, I really want to stress that, as far as the communal law areas are concerned, we believe that the system is failing the country and it’s failing our people. We believe, particularly, that Government has behaved very badly in respect to this matter.
There has, quite frankly, been insufficient preparedness on behalf of Government, to meet others half way in this matter. Traditional leaders, for example, through their representative organisations, have expended much effort in trying to meet Government half way in this matter. But we find absolutely no reciprocity from Government in respect of the same thing.
Even worse, Government has led people by the nose, in respect of promises that it really has had no intention, I think, of ever honouring. These promises relate to both the content of local government system itself, as well as to the process. Despite all that’s been said over the last two years, Government clearly has no intention of accommodating an alternative approach towards local government in these areas. That indicates that we really want to know why Government, in fact, makes the promises that it does. It’s very inappropriate.
Despite promising with monotonous regularity that these issues are going to be put to bed, year after year, we are told that it’s going to be finalised within six months, by the end of the year, and each year that comes about, the same position obtains. At the rate that we are going, by the time elections come, this matter will still be outstanding, and we find this completely unsatisfactory.
In conclusion, we believe that Government, in fact, has dealt with this very, very important matter with contempt that it does not deserve. Thank you.
Mrs R M SOUTHGATE: Madam Speaker, thank you, and I hope the Minister will not try and detract focus, as he did the last time. He always has the last say and he focused on traditional leaders, which is also one of the issues.
However, we are very emphatic about local government’s equitable share, and that goes to the Minister of Finance as well. I think, because local government is the vehicle that is supposed to deliver on the developmental mandate, it should definitely get the larger share of the pie.
Also looking at the Intergovernmental Fiscal Review, it is important that accurate stats are provided when the new formula is devised. At the moment, we do know that local governments have insufficient fiscal bases, and that most municipalities who collect their own revenues are dependent on intergovernment transfers and definitely have a lack of financial management capacity.
One of the many challenges that local government faces is that of financial management. Although many programmes have been launched, provinces have yet to present a workable strategy on how they will attend to improve the financial management capacity of local government.
Also, we want to acknowledge, or rather caution, Government not to give jobs for powers. I think that is where the problem is. They are putting unskilled people in managerial positions and they are not able to adequately come up with a financial plan.
Then there’s the tension between councillors, managers and communities, which is escalating, where it appears that finances follow political parties which govern at particular municipalities. We have seen that, in the city of Cape Town. It took them 12 months to come down to sort out the issues in this particular area.
Let’s just say that the ACDP will not be supporting this Budget Vote. Thank you.
Mr I S MFUNDISI: Madam Speaker, the UCDP takes note that the Department of Provincial and Local Government has a great responsibility to see to good governance in the provincial and local spheres.
In the same breath, we appreciate the situation, but feel that there has to be some quick mobility around the finalisation and putting in place of the Commission for the Promotion and Protection of Rights of Cultural, Religious and Linguistic Communities.
Concomitant with this is the need for the resolution of the issue of powers of traditional leaders. In the same breath, it is also important that attention be given to cutting down on the amount of money being given to the Municipal Demarcation Board, more so now that their mandate has been completed, and the resources be given to some other areas.
Finally, the UCDP notes that, whilst the Presidential Task Team is busy trying to find out what is going to happen to the people living in the so- called cross boundary municipalities, these people live under very uncertain periods. They are not sure whether they live in this or that other province. However, we hope that this will be resolved quite speedily and, in that breath, the UCDP will support the Vote.
Ms T E MILLEN: Madam Speaker, the IAM supports the official opposition …
The SPEAKER: Order! Hon members, order!
Ms T E MILLEN: May I start again, Madam Speaker?
The SPEAKER: Yes, you may.
Ms T E MILLEN: The IAM supports the Official Opposition and the IFP and, in particular, their concerns about the traditional leadership, on their declarations of this Vote, and is deeply concerned at any sign of weakening of provincial and local government. I thank you, Madam Speaker. [Interjections.]
Ms M C LOBE: Madam Speaker, as the ANC, we believe that municipalities have gone through a protracted, difficult and challenging transition period, and we believe that, during this period, they have reached great strides in ensuring that municipalities become centres of community life.
We believe that the core business of municipalities is the provision of services to communities, and this will, no doubt, necessitate more resources and support by different spheres of Government to municipalities.
This Budget Vote will, therefore, go a long way in assisting municipalities to meet their constitutional obligations but, above all, in assisting us in our endeavour of pushing back the frontiers of poverty.
We believe that the issue of traditional leadership finds more expression in the new system of local government, wherein traditional leaders are expected to participate in municipalities within their local areas. We also believe that the equitable share has been used to address issues that are associated with the provision of free and basic services, and this will, no doubt, assist us in ensuring that we uplift the lives of ordinary people. [Applause.]
The House divided:
AYES - 255: Abrahams, T; Abram, S; Ainslie, A R; Arendse, J D; Asmal, A K; Aucamp, C; Bakker, D M; Balfour, B M N; Baloyi, M R; Baloyi, S F; Bapela, O; Benjamin, J; Beukman, F; Bhengu, F; Biyela, B P; Bloem, D V; Bogopane, H I; Booi, M S; Botha, N G W; Buthelezi, M G; Cachalia, I M; Chalmers, J; Chiba, L; Chikane, M M; Chohan-Khota, F I; Cindi, N V; Cwele, S C; Davies, R H; De Lange, J H; Diale, L N; Didiza, A T; Dithebe, S L; Ditshetelo, P H K; Dlali, D M; Dlamini, B O; Douglas, B M; Du Toit, D C; Duma, N M; Durand, J; Dyani, M M Z; Erwin, A; Ferreira, E T; Fihla, N B; Fraser-Moleketi, G J; Frolick, C T; Geldenhuys, B L; George, M E; Gerber, P A; Gillwald, C E; Gogotya, N J; Goniwe, M T; Goosen, A D; Gous, S J; Greyling, C H F; Gumede, D M; Gxowa, N B; Hanekom, D A; Hendrickse, P A C; Herandien, C B; Hlaneki, C J; Hlengwa, M W; Hogan, B A; Holomisa, S P; Jassat, E E; Jeebodh, T; Jeffery, J H; Joemat, R R; Jordan, Z P; Kannemeyer, B W; Kasrils, R; Kati, J Z; Kgarimetsa, J J; Kgauwe, Q J; Kgwele, L G; Komphela, B M; Koornhof, G W; Kota, Z A; Kotwal, Z; Landers, L T; Lekgoro, M K; Lekota, M G P; Lobe, M C; Lockey, D; Louw, J T; Louw, S K; Ludwabe, C I; Mabandla, B S; Mabe, L L; Mabena, D C; Mabuyakhulu, V D; Mabuza, D D; Magashule, E S; Magazi, M N; Magubane, N E; Magwanishe, G B; Mahomed, F; Maimane, D S; Makasi, X C; Malahlela, M J; Maloney, L; Malumise, M M; Manie, M S; Manuel, T A; Mapisa-Nqakula, N N; Mars, I; Martins, B A D; Masala, M M; Maserumule, F T; Mashimbye, J N; Masithela, N H; Masutha, M T; Mathibela, N F; Matlanyane, H F; Matsepe-Casaburri, I F; Matthews, V J G; Maunye, M M; Mayatula, S M; Maziya, M A; Mbadi, L M; Mbombo, N D; Mbuyazi, L R; Mdladlana, M M S; Mentor, M P; Mfundisi, I S; Middleton, N S; Mkono, D G; Mlangeni, A; Mngomezulu, G P; Mnguni, B A; Mnumzana, S K; Moatshe, M S; Modise, T R; Modisenyane, L J; Moeketse, K M; Mofokeng, T R; Mogoba, M S; Mohamed, I J; Mohlala, R J B; Mokoena, A D; Molebatsi, M A; Moloi, J; Moloto, K A; Montsitsi, S D; Moonsamy, K; Moosa, M V; Moropa, R M; Morutoa, M R; Mothoagae, P K; Motubatse- Hounkpatin, S D; Mpahlwa, M B; Mpaka, H M; Mpontshane, A M; Mshudulu, S A; Mthembu, B; Mtsweni, N S; Mudau, N W; Mufamadi, F S; Mzondeki, M J G; Nair, B; Nash, J H; Ncinane, I Z; Ndzanga, R A; Nefolovhodwe, P J; Nel, A C; Nene, N M; Newhoudt-Druchen, W S; Ngaleka, E; Ngcengwane, N D; Ngcobo, N; Ngculu, L V J; Ngema, M V; Ngubane, H; Ngubeni, J M; Nhlengethwa, D G; Njobe, M A A; Nqodi, S B; Ntombela, S H; Ntshulana-Bhengu, N R; Ntuli, B M; Ntuli, J T; Ntuli, M B; Ntuli, S B; Nxumalo, S N; Olckers, M E; Olifant, D A A; Oliphant, G G; Oosthuizen, G C; Pahad, A G H; Pahad, E G; Phadagi, M G; Phala, M J; Phohlela, S; Pieterse, R D; Pillay, R; Rabinowitz, R; Radebe, B A; Radebe, J T; Rajbally, S; Ramakaba-Lesiea, M M; Ramgobin, M; Ramodike, M N; Ramotsamai, C M P; Rasmeni, S M; Reid, L R R; Rhoda, R T; Ripinga, S S; Robertsen, M O; Roopnarain, U; Rwexana, S P; Saloojee, E (Cassim); Schippers, J; Schneeman, G D; Schoeman, E A; Schoeman, R S; Seeco, M A; September, C C; September, R K; Seremane, J; Shabalala, T; Sibande, M P; Sibiya, M S M; Sigcau, S N; Sigwela, E M; Sikakane, M R; Sisulu, L N; Skhosana, W M; Skweyiya, Z S T; Smith, P F; Smith, V G; Solo, B M; Soloman, G; Sonjica, B P; Sosibo, J E; Sotyu, M M; Tarr, M A; Tinto, B; Tolo, L J; Tshabalala-Msimang, M E; Tshwete, P; Turok, B; Twala, N M; Vadi, I; Van der Merwe, A S; Van Jaarsveld, A Z A; Van Wyk, A; Van Wyk, A; Van Wyk, J F; Van den Heever, R P Z; Van der Merwe, S C; Vezi, T E; Woods, G G; Xulu, M; Zita, L; Zondo, R P; Zuma, J G.
NOES - 42: Andrew, K M; Bell, B G; Blaas, A; Blanché, S; Borman, G; Camerer, S; Clelland-Stokes, N J; Da Camara, M L; Delport, J T; Doman, W; Eglin, C W; Ellis, M J; Farrow, S B; Gibson, D H M; Grobler, G A J; Groenewald, P J; Kalyan, S; Koornhof, N J; Le Roux, W; Lee, T D; Lowe, C M; Maluleke, D K; McIntosh, G B D; Millen, T E; Moorcroft, E K; Mulder, P W A; Nel, A H; Ntuli, R S; Opperman, S E; Rabie, P; Redcliffe, C R; Schalkwyk, P; Semple, J A; Smuts, M; Southgate, R M; Steele, M H; Swart, P S; Swart, S N; Taljaard, R; Theron, J L; Van Deventer, F; Waters, M.
Vote No 5 accordingly agreed to.
Vote No 6 - Public Works - put:
Declarations of vote:
Mr J P I BLANCHÉ: Madam Speaker, the FA objects to supporting this Vote. [Interjections.]
During the debate on the Budget Vote, we debated how the hon Minister firstly failed to maintain the nation’s buildings and properties entrusted to her department; secondly, how she failed to draw up a policy document that would allow her to maintain buildings and properties which her Cabinet colleagues neglect to maintain; thirdly, she failed to respond to petitions from the health departments of local authorities like Ekwetini to maintain housing units in Durban; fourthly, she failed to ensure that one Military Hospital in Pretoria not be closed for being considered a fire hazard; she failed to ensure that local authorities are paid their rates and taxes by various departments who are millions of rands in arrears; she failed to ensure that some officials and members of Parliament who live in parliamentary villages pay their rent on time and not sublet to people not entitled to live in these villages, and she failed to give legitimate reasons why a house in Port Elizabeth was sold way below market value to the President’s family.
In the old South Africa, Public Works was one of the best-run departments in the administration. [Interjections.] Now, it seems that the ANC Minister and nine MECs around the country must be trained and retrained to improve their performance. [Interjections.] There are too many things going wrong in this department, for which the Minister does not take responsibility.
The DA and the FA cannot support this budget whilst the Minister in charge fails to maintain the nation’s assets in a responsible way.
The SPEAKER: Hon Minister, are you rising on a point of order?
The MINISTER OF FINANCE: Yes, Madam Speaker. Is the hon member allowed to mislead the House in that way? [Interjections.]
The SPEAKER: May I say that all of you do, but it’s deliberate misleading that is … [Interjections.]
The MINISTER OF FINANCE: That’s deliberate! That’s deliberate. [Applause.] [Interjections.]
Vote agreed to (Democratic Alliance, Federal Alliance and Independent African Movement dissenting.)
Vote No 7 - Government Communication and Information System - put and agreed to (Democratic Alliance, Federal Alliance and Independent African Movement dissenting).
Vote No 8 - National Treasury - put.
Declarations of vote:
Ms R TALJAARD: [Interjections.] Calm down, Minister Manuel. [Interjections.]
The SPEAKER: Order!
Ms R TALJAARD: There is no doubt that the work of the National Treasury represents the lifeblood of the South African economy. There is no doubt that under the Gear policy, South Africa has earned credibility for fiscal rectitude and broad macroeconomic policy. This in itself warrants support for this Budget Vote. It is clear that the ongoing crucial challenge now emanates from faster social delivery. If only other Ministeries were able to deliver social change of the calibre of the macroeconomic stability delivered by National Treasury.
As the declarations here will show today, this is not the case in too many departments. It is impossible to adequately differentiate among all the responsible divisions within the National Treasury and between the array of public entities reporting to the Minister of Finance in a two-minute declaration and do them justice.
Separate declarations are desirable if oversight is to mean anything. In addition, the time has come to sever the National Treasury and the Intelligence Votes in order to enable parties in this House to take a clear position on the Intelligence Vote itself. The current dispensation is highly undesirable and has to be resolved without delay.
The DA would like to congratulate the Minister of Finance and the officials concerned on South Africa’s recent financial action task force compliance. There is little doubt that one cannot stand outside the financial action task force’s requirements and actively combat terrorism, moneylaundering and continue to be an attractive FDI destination.
However, the DA would like to use this opportunity to express its concern that the National Treasury appears to have made a decision to adopt the model of a single financial regulator for South Africa’s financial services sector without sufficient public debate on this matter or consultation with the SA Reserve Bank. This matter is of great importance and significance.
Caution and circumspection must remain watchwords in any policy choice made by this Government. The financial services sector literally cannot afford any ill-conceived experiments.
Ms B A HOGAN: Madam Speaker, the ANC rises in support of the Budget Vote for National Treasury for the year 2003-04.
As the previous speaker has said, seldom has this economy ever been in more capable hands than it is under an ANC Government. [Applause.]
The many, many achievements of this National Treasury are difficult to enumerate in this small space of two minutes. Let me say that the spirited, energetic and purposeful way in which it has gone about the task of overhauling the macroeconomic management of this country, our taxation system, of totally transforming the manner in which revenue is collected, and implementing a smooth and efficient running of our intergovernmental fiscal system are achievements that few governments have ever been able to reach.
I want to say in connection with the single financial regulator issue that, yes, there is a concern. It seems there has been a hiatus in the development. That certainly does not mean that financial regulation has not received the ongoing attention of this department. We only need to look at the comprehensive legislation relating to consumer protection; the implementation of the pension surpluses and the apportionment to people who previously were not entitled to it; the overhaul of the long-term and short- term insurance industry; the modernisation of our stock exchanges, and the complete overhaul of our unit-trust industry are but a few of the issues related to financial regulation which this department has championed.
The ANC would like to congratulate National Treasury, the Minister, the Deputy Minister and the DG for the sterling work that they have performed for this country. [Applause.]
Vote No 8 agreed to.
Vote No 9 - Public Enterprises - put.
Declarations of vote:
Mr J L THERON: The DA will oppose this Budget Vote. The DA wants to congratulate Telkom on their listing on stock exchanges. To quote Rudi Heine’s last speech:
For the first time since the ANC became the Government, a public listing of a parastatal was taking place. But surely, in the current economic climate, this is not enough for all public enterprises.
South Africa’s privatisation programme has been a disaster. Unnecessary delays, continual ambivalence, infighting within the tripartite alliance and excessive conditionality costs South Africa dearly.
The DA must mention the following very unpleasant experiences regarding public enterprises. First, Transnet production/privatisation tender awarded to Skotaville Press with damages R57 million awarded by the High Court to the unsuccessful bidder. Two, donations by parastatals to the ANC network lounge amounting to between R70 and R140 000 per parastatal. This matter has been referred to the Auditor-General for investigation. Third, Eskom lost R127 million in a foreign exchange deal because the procurement department did not follow the required procedures. Four, the investment in mounting communications to the amount of R46 million and the non-disclosure of all the investment transactions, and in particular a guarantee that gave rise to a contingent liability for Eskom of R424 million is absolutely shocking. Five, the announcement that Spoornet needs a recapitalisation programme of R19 billion. Is it not bad management that this disaster is being acted upon only now? The tragedy of Transnet pension funds, where urgent recapitalisation is necessary. At least 45 000 pensioners and Transnet employees are suffering because of the grave consequences of this.
The DA will oppose this Budget Vote.
Mnr P J GROENEWALD: Mevrou die Speaker, agterstallige dienstegelde is al verskeie kere deur die VF uitgelig as die groot oorsaak van bankrotskappe en finansiële probleme in plaaslike regering. Maar as ons kom by openbare ondernemings, en ons gaan kyk na Eskom, sien ons dat Eskom letterlik miljoene rande afskryf as gevolg van die niebetaling van elektrisiteitsrekenings.
Die VF sê dis onbillik dat daar by sommige plekke ‘n afskrywing kan wees, maar by ander plekke nie. Dit is reeds bekend dat daar ‘n basiese hoeveelheid krag kosteloos gelewer kan word aan mense wat dit nie kan bekostig nie. ‘n Mens kan nie belastingbetalersgeld op sentrale vlak vat om mense op grondvlak te finansier wat nie betaal nie en dit terwyl hulle wel kan betaal. Daarom sê die VF dit is onbillik dat betalers van dienstegelde moet opdok vir die niebetalers wat nooit betaal nie, en daarom sal die VF nie hierdie pos steun nie. (Translation of Afrikaans speech follows.)
[Mr P J GROENEWALD: Madam Speaker, arrear service fees has been highlighted several times in the past by the FF as the major cause of bankruptcies and financial problems in local government. But when it comes to public enterprises, and we look at Eskom, we see that Eskom writes off literally millions of rands as a result of nonpayment of electricity accounts.
The FF says it is unfair that at some places there can be write-offs, but not at others. It is already known that a basic amount of electricity may be supplied free of charge to people who cannot afford it. One cannot take taxpayers’ money at central level to finance people at grassroots level who do not pay while they can in fact pay. For this reason the FF says it is unfair that people who pay service fees must shoulder the burden for nonpayers who never pay, and for this reason the FF will not be supporting this Vote.]
Mr B A D MARTINS: Madam Speaker, the Department of Public Enterprises has faced many challenges, but in the history of this country, it has done exceedingly well with regard to the restructuring of all state enterprises.
Under the conditions with the requisite challenges, the department could not have done better and continues to face and address these challenges. Thank you. [Applause.]
Vote agreed to (Democratic Alliance and Freedom Front dissenting).
Vote No 10 - Public Service and Administration - put and agreed to.
Vote No 11 - Public Service Commission - put and agreed to.
Vote No 12 - South African Management Development Institute - put and agreed to.
Vote no 13 - Statistics South Africa - put.
Declarations of vote:
Ms R TALJAARD: Madam Speaker, in recent weeks Stats SA have grabbed the headlines for the wrong reason. Due largely to resource constraints, amidst great demand for statistics, the agency made the wrong judgement call in discontinuing the crucial October Household Survey and that caused distortions in the crucial CPIX. While the CPIX figures have been revised downwards and the monetary policy adjusted accordingly, concerns persist.
Wages and utility tariffs have been distorted by incorrect data. Hundreds of home owners have paid more for their bonds. Individuals and co- operatives have incurred higher financing costs. Wage negotiations were concluded on the basis of incorrect figures. Tariff hikes by Eskom, Telkom, the Post Office and Spoornet were based on faulty data and are not being readjusted or revisited. The recent eurobond issue regarding the National Treasury might result in liabilities for the Government. Why is no one being held accountable? In addition, due to the long delays in the release of Census 2001 data, there is every reason to be concerned and to ask whether those most desperately in need of delivery are in fact receiving it in terms of grants or infrastructural development in provinces with the backlogs.
Minister, where are the Census 2001 results? The fact is that the delivery is taking place based on clearly outdated population and household data. Not only is the pace of delivery slow but we can rightly ask whether those most in need of delivery are in actual fact receiving it, as Stats SA are clearly underresourced, based purely on the wide range of demands placed on this agency to roll out a national statistic system. We cannot support a Budget Vote that inadequately provides for the vast funding needs of the national statistics system.
Mnr A BLAAS: Speaker, die ACDP is nie oortuig daarvan dat die bestuursvermoë van Statistiek SA aan die nodige vereistes voldoen nie. Dit word weerspieël in die onlangse probleem wat ons gehad het met die vrystelling van statistiek wat dramatiese impak het op ons ekonomie en die hele bedryf van kontrakte en dies meer. Hierdie standpunt word ook gesteun deur die feit dat daar ook in die departement self verskille is oor die prestasievermoë van hierdie departement. Gevolglik sal die ACDP nie hierdie begrotingspos steun nie. Dankie. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraph follows.)
[Mr A BLAAS: Speaker, the ACDP is not convinced that the management capacity of Statistics SA meets the necessary requirements. This is reflected in the recent problem we had in releasing of statistics, which had a dramatic impact on our economy and the whole industry of contracts and so forth. This point of view is also supported by the fact that in the department itself there is disagreement about the performance capacity of this department. Consequently, the ACDP will not support this Budget Vote. Thank you.]
Ms T E MILLEN: Madam Speaker … [Interjections.]
The SPEAKER: Order, hon members!
Ms T E MILLEN: Thank you, Madam Speaker. I would just say that I fully support the DA’s position on this. [Interjections.] The debacle on statistics is enough to really put the whole thing to bed. And if I do support the DA, gee whiz, I think I can live with that! Thank you. [Interjections.]
The SPEAKER: Order, hon members! Order! [Interjections.]
Ms S B NQODI: Madam Speaker, the ANC supports Budget Vote 13 on Statistics SA. When I look back at the period of about 9 years that members of this House have spent in this democratically elected Parliament, I want to believe that the experience, skills and expertise that we have gained really make all of us seasoned and sober-minded politicians in the way in which we assess, interpret or approach and debate issues.
The magnitude and importance of the work done by Statistics SA should never be underestimated, not to mention the challenges it faces. The decisions that we make in all the policies that we formulate must be informed by the realities of conditions on the ground under which our public or civil servants work.
Statistical data provided to us by Statistics SA afford us, politicians and Government, with that gauge or barometer of measuring our performance when it comes to service delivery. It helps us in targeting those that are really in need, namely the rural poor black people or communities. It allows us to monitor, evaluate and possibly review some of our policies and programmes if need be, hence the ANC’s unequivocal acknowledgement of the miscalculations of the CPIX, which we deeply regret. We have said that.
The budget allocation of Statistics SA has intranational importance because the Government as a whole utilises statistical data prepared by Statistics SA. Furthermore, our own social partners in business and labour also utilise that same data to keep our economy on a growth trajectory. Statistics SA is currently on its way to becoming a quality statistical knowledge centre in statistical production. Therefore, the resource envelope allocated to it will probably alleviate the awesome burden of backlogs that we have inherited. This is a far cry from an apartheid past when there were no reliable official statistics. The ANC supports the Vote. [Applause.]
Vote agreed to (Democratic Alliance, African Christian Democratic Party, Federal Alliance and Independent African Movement dissenting).
Vote No 14 - Arts and Culture - put:
Declarations of vote:
Mnr S E OPPERMAN: Speaker, die DA steun die begrotingspos, alhoewel ons baie bekommerd is oor die gebrek aan verantwoordbare finansiële bestuur by instellings soos die Robbeneiland-museum, en versoek dat nuwe bewerings van ongerymdhede by onder meer Windybrow in Johannesburg dringend ondersoek word. Die verslegtende verhouding tussen die departement en sekere kultuurorganisasies is ook onaanvaarbaar.
Die DA verwelkom die voorgestelde taalwetgewing wat gelykberegtiging aan al 11 amptelike tale waarborg. Dit is belangrik dat die wetgewing deur alle staatsdepartemente toegepas sal word sonder om skuiwergate te soek om die gees daarvan te ondermyn.
Vertalingfasiliteite moet dringend uitgebrei word om nie net meer tale te akkommodeer nie, maar ook om aan besoekers in die galery die geleentheid te bied om alle debatte te volg. Die nasionale Parlement moet deur die voorbeeld wat ons stel, demonstreer dat veeltaligheid ons erns is. Elke komponent van ons taaldiversiteit moet beskerm en uitgebrei word, anders word ons amptelike leuse, ``eenheid in diversiteit,’’ ‘n belaglikheid. Ek dank u. [Tussenwerpsels.] (Translation of Afrikaans speech follows.)
[Mr S E OPPERMAN: Speaker, the DA supports the Budget Vote, although we are very concerned about the lack of accountable financial management at institutions such as the Robben Island Museum, and requests that new allegations of irregularities at, among others, Windybrow in Johannesburg should urgently be investigated. The deteriorating relationship between the department and certain cultural organisations is also unacceptable.
The DA welcomes the proposed language legislation that guarantees equal empowerment to all 11 official languages. It is important that the legislation is applied throughout all government departments without searching for loopholes to undermine the spirit of it.
Translation facilities must be urgently expanded; not only to accommodate more languages, but also to give visitors in the gallery the opportunity to follow all debates. The national Parliament must, through the example that we are setting, demonstrate that multilingualism is our serious concern. Each component of our language diversity must be protected and expanded, otherwise our official motto, ``unity in diversity’’ is made ludicrous. I thank you. [Interjections.]]
Mrs M A A NJOBE: Chairperson, the ANC supports Vote No 14 on Arts and Culture. The creation of a separate Department of Arts and Culture has led to more resources being allocated to arts, culture and languages. All the programmes that formerly shared resources with science and technology now have a better allocation. There is now opportunity for better focus, and, I want to emphasise, particularly on the arts and languages and, therefore, hopefully there will be better performance in future.
The Department of Arts and Culture recently held a consultative conference on multilingualism. It was a very, very successful conference. What we are looking forward to now is a Bill that will come to Parliament: the South African Languages Bill. Therefore there is no need to panic. The department is up and coming. There is a new director-general and we hope for better performance, as I have already said. Thank you. [Applause.]
Vote agreed to.
Vote No 15 - Education - put.
Declarations of vote: Mnr W P DOMAN: Voorsitter, die DA is tevrede dat die toegang van alle leerders tot onderwys nagestreef word en dat die maksimum begroting aan die onderwys toegeken is. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraph follows.)
[Mr W P DOMAN: Chairperson, the DA is satisfied that access to education for all learners is the aspiration and that education has been allocated the maximum budget.]
However, the mere spending of additional amounts of public money without improvement on learning outcomes, retention rates and pass rates is no indicator of success. Without hard roll-out plans and proper costing, the recent action plan is little more than the carefully timed release of a list of election promises which the Minister, in his own words, said will only be phased in in the next financial year.
Earlier this month, the Minister released his systemic evaluation report on the foundation phase. It concedes that the poor performance of learners, particularly in numeracy and literacy, is a cause for concern. The truth is that the majority of the Grade 3 learners have been victims of bad teaching within a poorly implemented Curriculum 2005. This alone would be justification to vote against the budget.
Nog ‘n rede is egter dat 60% van leerders die skool verlaat sonder matriek, en gekoppel hieraan is die afname in matrikulante en universiteitsvrystellings. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraph follows.)
[However, another reason is the fact that 60% of learners leave school without matric, and coupled with this is the decrease in matriculants and university exemptions.]
The Minister and his department have failed to have the curriculum for further education and training ready in time. Not only do learners who complete Grade 9 have to go back to an outdated curriculum in Grade 10 but, once again, no parents of learners in Grade 9 know what the criteria are for promotion at the end of this year.
‘n Derde rede waarom die DA teen die begrotingspos stem, is omdat die ANC- regering die bevoegdhede van beheerliggame inperk deur in te meng met hulle aanstellingsbevoegdheid, met hulle inisiatiewe om deur ekstra vergoeding onderwysers te behou en te motiveer, en met hulle reg om godsdiensbeoefening te reël. Ten slotte is dit lofwaardig dat die agb Minister met die plan gekom het om die hoëronderwysinstellings van 36 na 21 te verminder, maar ons hoor niks omtrent die kwantifisering van die poste nie … (Translation of Afrikaans paragraph follows.)
[A third reason why the DA is voting against this Budget Vote, is because the ANC Government limits the powers of governing bodies by interfering with their power to make appointments, with their initiatives to maintain and motivate educators through additional remuneration, and with their right to regulate religious practice. Finally, it is laudable that the hon Minister formulated a plan to reduce institutions for higher education from 36 to 21, but we do not hear anything about the quantification of posts …]
The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! Hon member, your time has expired.
Mr W P DOMAN: … en daarom kan ons, ten spyte van die Minister se ywer, nie die begrotingspos steun nie. [Tussenwerpsels.] [… and therefore we cannot, despite the Minister’s diligence, support the Budget Vote. [Interjections.]]
Mrs M E OLCKERS: Chairperson, the New NP once again calls on the Minister of Education not to introduce the so-called new measures in education unless they have been thoroughly thought through and unless the suggestion had been through a decent process of consultation with stakeholders, including parents, and not only with his officials. We are not against reform but only after thorough research must it be introduced.
The education system has been through a very unstable time in the past few years and we owe it to everybody involved to now operate in a more stable climate. However, we acknowledge that this is a very difficult and varied portfolio and we thank the Minister for his enthusiasm in doing this very difficult job. The New NP will support the Budget Vote. [Interjections.]
Dr P W A MULDER: Mnr die Voorsitter, werkloosheid is waarskynlik op hierdie oomblik Suid-Afrika se grootste probleem. Een van die belangrikste wyses om dit op te los is ‘n goeie onderwysstelsel wat produkte lewer wat die probleme van werkloosheid kan oplos. As eerste stap moet ons in Suid-Afrika daarin slaag om alle kinders op skool te kry. Ons het nog nie daarin geslaag nie. Daarná moet ons daarin slaag om basiese onderwys aan almal te gee.
Afrikaners het in die ou dae spottenderwys in Engels gesê onderwys moet aan kinders die drie R’e gee: ``reading, ‘riting and ‘rithmetic’’. Ons huidige onderwysdepartement, sê ek, is te besig om allerlei tierlantyntjies in die onderwys in te bring en daarom mis hulle hierdie basiese goed wat kan help dat ons van onder af kan opbou. Daarná kan ‘n mens die luukses van tierlantyntjies begin invoer.
Verder verskil ons van die Minister se benadering dat hy aan skole en universiteite op alle vlakke wil voorskryf. Dit geld vir kurrikula, godsdiens op skool, asook die huidige samesmelting van universiteite wat steeds meer druk op Afrikaans as onderrigtaal op universiteit plaas. Die VF sal daarteen stem. (Translation of Afrikaans speech follows.)
[Dr P W A Mulder: Mr Chairman, unemployment is probably South Africa’s biggest problem at this moment. One of the most important ways to solve it would be a good educational system, which will deliver products who would be able to solve the problems of unemployment. As a first step, we in South Africa must succeed in getting all children to attend school. We have not managed to do that yet. Then, we must succeed in giving basic education to all. Afrikaners, in the old days jokingly said that we must give our children the three R’s: ``reading, ‘riting and ‘rithmetic’’. Our current Education Department, I would say, is too busy to import all kinds of frills to education and therefore they miss all these basic things which could help us build from afresh. Only then can one start to import the frills.
Furthermore, we disagree with the Minister’s approach of wanting to prescribe to schools and universities on all levels. This includes curricula, religion in schools, as well as the current merging of universities, which put more pressure on Afrikaans as medium of instruction. The FF will vote against it.]
Ms T E MILLEN: Mr Chairperson, the IAM opposes interference in religious matters in our public schools. When you get the situation that the mainstream religious groups - Christian, Muslim, Hindu and Jewish religions
- are all agreed in opposing such interference, surely, hon Minister, a message must be getting through to the powers that be. [Interjections.]
The IAM also opposes obstructing schools from funding their own additional teachers and opposes all attempts to reduce education to the lowest common denominator. [Interjections.] We will not be supporting this Vote. Thank you. [Interjections.]
The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! Order, hon members!
Mr C AUCAMP: Hon Chairperson, the NA appreciates the assurance that the hon Minister gave me with regard to religion in education when he said, ``We have met all your concerns’’. But, although I would like to believe that the Minister subjectively spoke the truth, I have doubts whether the Minister and I are at one with regard to the extent and content of our concerns. We are not happy with this interference in the religious character of education.
Dan is ons ook ongelukkig met die praktyk dat daar toegelaat word dat mense met hulle voete stem om die taalbeleid van skole te verander en dat die beheerliggaam nie kan besluit wat die taalbeleid is en daarvolgens kinders kan toelaat nie. Die omgekeerde gebeur. Ons kry eintlik ``bussing’’ - kinders word aangery en dan word die skool gedwing om die taalbeleid te verander sodat net 15% van die skole wat Afrikaans was nou nog steeds Afrikaansmedium is.
Dan het ons ‘n groot probleem met die inmenging in die tersiêre vlak van
onderrig. Die PUK se naam het in die slag gebly. Ons gee nie om oor die
Potchefstroom'' nie, maar ons gee om oor dieCHO’’. Honderd en vyftig
jaar se geskiedenis is met een besluit ‘n streep deurgetrek, en as ‘n mens
met die mense praat, sê hulle hulle het nie ‘n keuse gehad nie, want die
skaakmeester van bo het die pionne geskuif. Die NA gaan definitief teen die
onderwysbeleid stem. Dankie. [Tussenwerpsels.] (Translation of Afrikaans
paragraphs follows.)
[Then we are also dissatisfied with the practice that people are allowed to vote by means of protest marches to change the language policy of schools and that the controlling body cannot decide on the language policy and admit children accordingly. The opposite happens. We actually get ``bussing’’ - children are conveyed to a school and then the school is forced to change the language policy so that only 15% of the schools which used to be Afrikaans are now still Afrikaans medium.
Then we have an enormous problem with the interference on the tertiary
level of education. The PUK’s name has fallen a victim to this. We do not
mind about the Potchefstroom'', but we mind about theCHO’’. One
hundred and fifty years’ history has been nullified by one decision, and if
one talks to people, they say that they had no choice because the chess
master at the top shifted the pawns. The NA is definitely going to vote
against the education policy. Thank you. [Interjections.]]
Prof S M MAYATULA: Hon Chair, the ANC supports this Budget Vote. Through this budget, the ANC-led Government is committed and determined to transform the educational system of this country to benefit all our people, black and white; especially the poorest of the poor.
The religion in education document, which was well explained by the department in our committee meeting - unfortunately the member of the IAM was not there - and which is now out for public comment, is meant to encourage acceptance of different religions in our schools. As a rainbow nation, let us embrace each other. Let us live together despite our differences. Let us not be tempted to use our Christian majority. The members who were present in the portfolio committee meeting did accept that some of the misconceptions in the press were just that.
The proposed funding formula for schools, which is equitable in its approach, will have a dramatic impact on the funding of nonpersonnel items of the poorest schools in our country. This shows that the tide has turned. The people of the Northern Cape, both black and white, were all smiles when their national institute for higher education was inaugurated over the past weekend. This is an indication that, surely, the tide has turned.
The Jacob Zuma Trust is reaching out to the forgotten children of our country to restore their pride and human dignity. That is transformation at its best. Thank you. [Applause.]
The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! The schedule does not list the IFP but I have recognised them. Will you please make your declaration.
Mr M A MPONTSHANE: Hon Chairperson, the IFP supports Vote No 15. However, the transfer of funds, especially the R5 million which has been transferred to the Jacob Zuma Trust Fund, remains a source of concern to us. The fact that the recipients of bursaries from this trust fund are those who have been identified by the TRC process makes it even more suspicious and unequitable.
The IFP has suffered many distortions, including distortions by the TRC. The IFP lost many of its followers and leaders through perpetrators who have been given amnesty by the TRC process. The awarding of these bursaries would exclude those whom the TRC has wrongfully labelled as villains. This process should be open to all political parties if we do not want to perpetuate these distortions. I thank you.
Division demanded.
The House divided.
AYES - 247: Abrahams, T; Abram, S; Ainslie, A R; Arendse, J D; Asmal, A K; Bakker, D M; Balfour, B M N; Baloyi, M R; Baloyi, S F; Bapela, O; Benjamin, J; Beukman, F; Bhengu, F; Biyela, B P; Bloem, D V; Bogopane, H I; Booi, M S; Botha, N G W; Buthelezi, M G; Cachalia, I M; Chalmers, J; Chiba, L; Chikane, M M; Chohan-Khota, F I; Cindi, N V; Cwele, S C; Davies, R H; De Lille, P; Diale, L N; Didiza, A T; Dithebe, S L; Ditshetelo, P H K; Dlali, D M; Dlamini, B O; Douglas, B M; Duma, N M; Durand, J; Dyani, M M Z; Erwin, A; Ferreira, E T; Fihla, N B; Fraser- Moleketi, G J; Frolick, C T; Geldenhuys, B L; George, M E; Gerber, P A; Gillwald, C E; Gogotya, N J; Goniwe, M T; Goosen, A D; Gous, S J; Greyling, C H F; Gumede, D M; Gxowa, N B; Hanekom, D A; Hendrickse, P A C; Herandien, C B; Hlaneki, C J; Hlengwa, M W; Hogan, B A; Holomisa, S P; Jassat, E E; Jeffery, J H; Joemat, R R; Jordan, Z P; Kannemeyer, B W; Kasrils, R; Kati, J Z; Kgarimetsa, J J; Kgauwe, Q J; Kgwele, L G; Komphela, B M; Koornhof, G W; Kota, Z A; Kotwal, Z; Landers, L T; Lekgoro, M K; Lekota, M G P; Lobe, M C; Lockey, D; Louw, J T; Louw, S K; Lucas, E J; Ludwabe, C I; Mabandla, B S; Mabe, L L; Mabena, D C; Mabuyakhulu, V D; Mabuza, D D; Magashule, E S; Magazi, M N; Magubane, N E; Magwanishe, G B; Mahomed, F; Maimane, D S; Makasi, X C; Malahlela, M J; Maloney, L; Malumise, M M; Manie, M S; Manuel, T A; Mapisa-Nqakula, N N; Mars, I; Martins, B A D; Masala, M M; Maserumule, F T; Mashimbye, J N; Masithela, N H; Mathibela, N F; Matlanyane, H F; Matsepe-Casaburri, I F; Matthews, V J G; Maunye, M M; Mayatula, S M; Maziya, M A; Mbadi, L M; Mbombo, N D; Mdladlana, M M S; Mentor, M P; Middleton, N S; Mkono, D G; Mlangeni, A; Mngomezulu, G P; Mnguni, B A; Mnumzana, S K; Moatshe, M S; Modise, T R; Modisenyane, L J; Moeketse, K M; Mofokeng, T R; Mogoba, M S; Mohamed, I J; Mohlala, R J B; Mokoena, A D; Molebatsi, M A; Moloi, J; Moloto, K A; Montsitsi, S D; Moonsamy, K; Moosa, M V; Morobi, D M; Moropa, R M; Morutoa, M R; Mothoagae, P K; Motubatse-Hounkpatin, S D; Mpahlwa, M B; Mpaka, H M; Mpontshane, A M; Mshudulu, S A; Mthembu, B; Mtsweni, N S; Mudau, N W; Mufamadi, F S; Mzondeki, M J G; Nair, B; Nash, J H; Ncinane, I Z; Ndzanga, R A; Nefolovhodwe, P J; Nel, A C; Nene, N M; Newhoudt-Druchen, W S; Ngaleka, E; Ngcengwane, N D; Ngcobo, N; Ngculu, L V J; Ngema, M V; Ngubeni, J M; Nhlengethwa, D G; Njobe, M A A; Nqodi, S B; Ntombela, S H; Ntshulana-Bhengu, N R; Ntuli, B M; Ntuli, J T; Ntuli, M B; Ntuli, S B; Nxumalo, S N; Olckers, M E; Olifant, D A A; Oliphant, G G; Oosthuizen, G C; Pahad, A G H; Pahad, E G; Phadagi, M G; Phala, M J; Phohlela, S; Pieterse, R D; Pillay, R; Rabinowitz, R; Radebe, B A; Radebe, J T; Rajbally, S; Ramakaba-Lesiea, M M; Ramgobin, M; Ramotsamai, C M P; Rasmeni, S M; Reid, L R R; Rhoda, R T; Ripinga, S S; Roopnarain, U; Rwexana, S P; Saloojee, E (Cassim); Schippers, J; Schneeman, G D; Schoeman, E A; Schoeman, R S; Seeco, M A; September, C C; Shabalala, T; Shabangu, S; Sibande, M P; Sibiya, M S M; Sigcau, S N; Sigwela, E M; Sikakane, M R; Sisulu, L N; Sithole, D J; Skhosana, W M; Skweyiya, Z S T; Smith, P F; Smith, V G; Solo, B M; Soloman, G; Sonjica, B P; Sosibo, J E; Sotyu, M M; Tarr, M A; Tinto, B; Tolo, L J; Tshabalala-Msimang, M E; Tshwete, P; Twala, N M; Vadi, I; Van der Merwe, A S; Van Jaarsveld, A Z A; Van Wyk, A; Van Wyk, A; Van Wyk, J F; Van den Heever, R P Z; Van der Merwe, S C; Vezi, T E; Woods, G G; Xulu, M; Zita, L; Zondo, R P; Zuma, J G.
NOES - 45: Andrew, K M; Aucamp, C; Bell, B G; Blaas, A; Blanché, S; Borman, G; Camerer, S; Da Camara, M L; Delport, J T; Doman, W; Eglin, C W; Ellis, M J; Farrow, S B; Gibson, D H M; Gore, V C; Grobler, G A J; Groenewald, P J; Kalyan, S; Koornhof, N J; Le Roux, W; Lee, T D; Lowe, C M; Maluleke, D K; McIntosh, G B D; Millen, T E; Moorcroft, E K; Mulder, C P; Mulder, P W A; Nel, A H; Ntuli, R S; Opperman, S E; Rabie, P; Redcliffe, C R; Schalkwyk, P; Semple, J A; Seremane, J; Smuts, M; Southgate, R M; Steele, M H; Swart, P S; Swart, S N; Taljaard, R; Theron, J L; Van Deventer, F; Waters, M.
Vote No 15 accordingly agreed to.
Vote No 16 - Health - put.
Declarations of vote:
Mr M WATERS: Chair, South Africa is fast becoming known as the killing fields with hundreds of thousands of people already dying from Aids-related diseases. The graveyards are becoming filled to capacity and the mortuaries are overflowing with dead bodies.
Through the ANC Government’s narrow-minded and outdated stance on HIV/Aids, we are creating a nation of orphans which this Government cannot look after
- 500 000 of them, to be precise. Research has shown conclusively that it is cheaper in the long run to provide antiretroviral treatment for HIV sufferers than to allow people to die. Instead of tackling the problem, the Government continues only to treat opportunistic infections, thus sentencing HIV-positive people to a certain early death.
The Government is also the single biggest employer of over one million people. The Aids disaster is taking its toll on the Public Service with the department’s own report saying that without treatment service delivery will suffer as 250 000 public servants would have died from Aids by 2012.
The hon Minister Fraser-Moleketi’s report further stated that skilled and highly skilled employees are at the highest risk of infection. The current HIV-infection level in the Public Service is 14%, but higher in key areas. The rate amongst student nurses is 30%, teachers 18%, social workers 19% and the defence force 22% - from your own report, hon Minister.
This is the first year when Aids-related deaths in the Public Service will outnumber non-Aids deaths. The DA, along with every sane South African, is saying that we must start a national antiretroviral treatment campaign, because we cannot as human beings tolerate 600 deaths per day to Aids.
I am today speaking on behalf of the five million infected people in my country, the 500 000 orphans and the millions of South Africans who are gobsmacked at the ANC’s stance on HIV. The DA cannot in all conscience support the health budget. I thank you. [Interjections.]
Dr R RABINOWITZ: Chairperson, the IFP is not satisfied with the standard of health care in public services and even less satisfied with services in rural areas. We oppose the move to centralise control over all aspects of health policy. The IFP advocates greater decentralisation and clarity in health policy and a bottom-up approach.
We advocate greater autonomy and funding, and point out that the worst aspect of duplication in bureaucracy is in conditional grants, which constitute 20% of health spend in provinces and are difficult to use.
The IFP wants to see more use of incentives and competitive public-private partnerships to bridge the gap between levels of care in public and private institutions.
As regards HIV/Aids, the IFP does not support the secrecy and anonymity informing much of Government’s policies. We advocate more testing and the need for people to know their status. We advocate stronger censorship when people knowingly or willingly infect their sex partners with HIV. Unlike Government’s desire to give no one what cannot be given to everyone, the IFP advocates an incremental approach to providing nevirapine to pregnant mothers and antiretroviral treatment to people with HIV or Aids.
There should be better use of partnerships between donors, civil society and Government until all people who need it receive the medicine they need. The IFP abhors the Minister of Health’s failure to allow KwaZulu-Natal to use the 73 million dollars donated to the Enhancing Care Initiative by the Global Fund. The NGO awarded this money by the fund was none other than the Nelson Mandela School of Medicine. It was judged to have submitted the best proposal that the fund has received. The money would be distributed through a reputable and tightly audited chain of care givers. The Global Fund has declared the money ready to be transferred and the health ministry has proved its capacity to distribute millions of dollars in donor funding.
This political obstruction of funding for orphans, mothers, Aids sufferers and the population at large is a dereliction of duty. [Interjections.] Thank you.
Dr P W A MULDER: Mnr die Voorsitter, die MIV/Vigs-pandemie is die grootste gesondheidskrisis wat Suid-Afrika moet hanteer sedert die 1918- griepepidemie.
Die toekoms sal wys dat dit die ergste is wat ons nog ooit gehad het. Nieteenstaande baie debatte in hierdie Raad oor die Regering se beleid ten opsigte van hierdie sake, is hy steeds onduidelik en steeds verwarrend. Daarom gaan die VF teen hierdie begrotingspos stem.
Elke Suid-Afrikaanse dokter nog wat die land verlaat, is ‘n ontelbare verlies vir Suid-Afrika. Die departement slaag nie daarin om selfs, na nege jaar, toestande in hospitale en in die gesondheidsomgewing te skep wat Suid- Afrikaanse dokters aanmoedig om nie die land te verlaat nie en wel hier aan te bly. Ons kan nie toelaat dat dit so tot ons eie nadeel voortgaan nie. Die VF sal teen die begrotingspos stem. (Translation of Afrikaans speech follows.)
[Dr P W A MULDER: Mr Chairman, the HIV/Aids pandemic is the largest health crisis with which South Africa has had to deal since the influenza epidemic of 1918.
The future will show that it was the worst we have ever experienced. Despite many debates in this House on the Government’s policy with regard to these issues, it is still unclear and still confusing. That is why the FF will vote against this Budget Vote.
Each and every South African doctor who leaves the country is an incalculable loss to South Africa. Even after nine years, the department is not able to create conditions in hospitals and in the health environment which would encourage South African doctors not to leave the country, but rather remain here. We cannot allow this to continue to our own disadvantage. The FF will vote against the Budget Vote.]
Ms T E MILLEN: Thank you, Chairperson. The IAM fully supports the position of the DA in opposing this Vote. [Interjections.]
And I cannot add anything further to the comments made by the hon Ruth Rabinowitz about the UN Global Fund and the Minister’s attitude. It’s just a pity that the IFP is not also voting against this Vote. Thank you. [Interjections.]
Mr C AUCAMP: Hon Chairperson, may I ask my benchmate rather to say we are against the Vote than to say we support the DA. It sounds much better. [Laughter.]
The NA will vote against the Health Budget.
Ons sien die Regering se vigsbeleid is nog steeds vol en deurtrek van dissidente se standpunte, wat die land na ‘n ramp gaan lei. Die traagheid om antiretrovirale middels vrylik beskikbaar te stel ten spyte van ‘n hofbevel, moet veroordeel word. En dan is dit ook so dat die Regering se vigsbeleid CCC is - ``condomise, condomise, condomise.’’ (Translation of Afrikaans paragraph follows.)
[We notice that the Government’s Aids policy is still riddled with dissidents’ viewpoints, which is going to lead the country to disaster. The reluctance to make antiretrovirals freely available, in spite of a court order, must be condemned. And then it is also true that the Government’s Aids policy is CCC - condomise, condomise, condomise.]
And not ABC - abstinence, be faithful and condomise.
Die toestande in staatshospitale is veral skrikwekkend. Gaan kyk net in vanoggend se Beeld waar vertel word van ‘n 84-jarige dame wat gesond in ‘n hospitaal ingegaan het en siek daar uitgekom het. Die NA kan nie hierdie begrotingspos steun nie. Ek dank u. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraph follows.)
[The conditions in state hospitals are especially alarming. Just have a look at this morning’s Beeld, in which there is an article about an 84-year- old lady who was healthy when she entered the hospital, and ill when she left it. The NA cannot support this Budget Vote. I thank you.] Mr L V J NGCULU: Chairperson, as the ANC we stand in full and unequivocal support of this budget. We do so confident of the route we have travelled in the field of health; confident that since 1994 many achievements have been made in this field. Ours does not begin and end with HIV/Aids.
We look at health in a comprehensive and deeper manner. We are aware that in the budget of HIV/Aids in this current Budget, 32% has been allocated for HIV/Aids, which is something that we should all appreciate. An amount of R500 million have been allocated for retention and recruitment of staff, especially in the rural areas, for serious programmes and more allocation to conditional grants for hospital revitalisation programmes. These are the achievements that make us proud to say today that we support this Budget.
Those of us who have a microscope and are looking only from one area, especially those who think perhaps HIV/Aids is going to be their own rallying call in the elections, will be found wanting when we come to the elections in 2004. [Interjections.] Thank you very much. [Applause.]
Division demanded.
The House divided:
AYES - 244: Abrahams, T; Abram, S; Ainslie, A R; Arendse, J D; Bakker, D M; Balfour, B M N; Baloyi, M R; Baloyi, S F; Benjamin, J; Beukman, F; Bhengu, F; Biyela, B P; Bloem, D V; Bogopane, H I; Booi, M S; Botha, N G W; Buthelezi, M G; Cachalia, I M; Chalmers, J; Chiba, L; Chikane, M M; Chohan-Khota, F I; Cindi, N V; Cwele, S C; Davies, R H; Diale, L N; Didiza, A T; Dithebe, S L; Dlali, D M; Dlamini, B O; Douglas, B M; Du Toit, D C; Duma, N M; Durand, J; Dyani, M M Z; Erwin, A; Ferreira, E T; Fihla, N B; Fraser-Moleketi, G J; Frolick, C T; Geldenhuys, B L; George, M E; Gerber, P A; Gillwald, C E; Gogotya, N J; Goniwe, M T; Goosen, A D; Gous, S J; Greyling, C H F; Gumede, D M; Gxowa, N B; Hanekom, D A; Hendrickse, P A C; Herandien, C B; Hlaneki, C J; Hlengwa, M W; Hogan, B A; Holomisa, S P; Jassat, E E; Jeebodh, T; Joemat, R R; Jordan, Z P; Kannemeyer, B W; Kasrils, R; Kati, J Z; Kgarimetsa, J J; Kgauwe, Q J; Kgwele, L G; Komphela, B M; Koornhof, G W; Kota, Z A; Kotwal, Z; Landers, L T; Lekgoro, M K; Lekota, M G P; Lobe, M C; Lockey, D; Louw, J T; Louw, S K; Lucas, E J; Ludwabe, C I; Luthuli, A N; Mabandla, B S; Mabe, L L; Mabena, D C; Mabuyakhulu, V D; Mabuza, D D; Magashule, E S; Magazi, M N; Magubane, N E; Magwanishe, G B; Mahomed, F; Maimane, D S; Makasi, X C; Malahlela, M J; Maloney, L; Malumise, M M; Manie, M S; Manuel, T A; Mapisa-Nqakula, N N; Mars, I; Martins, B A D; Masala, M M; Maserumule, F T; Mashimbye, J N; Masithela, N H; Mathibela, N F; Matlanyane, H F; Matsepe-Casaburri, I F; Maunye, M M; Mayatula, S M; Maziya, M A; Mbadi, L M; Mbombo, N D; Mbuyazi, L R; Mdladlana, M M S; Mentor, M P; Middleton, N S; Mkono, D G; Mlangeni, A; Mngomezulu, G P; Mnguni, B A; Mnumzana, S K; Moatshe, M S; Modise, T R; Modisenyane, L J; Moeketse, K M; Mofokeng, T R; Mogoba, M S; Mohamed, I J; Mohlala, R J B; Mokoena, A D; Molebatsi, M A; Moloi, J; Moloto, K A; Montsitsi, S D; Moonsamy, K; Moosa, M V; Morobi, D M; Moropa, R M; Morutoa, M R; Mothoagae, P K; Motubatse- Hounkpatin, S D; Mpahlwa, M B; Mpaka, H M; Mpontshane, A M; Mshudulu, S A; Mthembu, B; Mthethwa, E N; Mtsweni, N S; Mudau, N W; Mufamadi, F S; Mzondeki, M J G; Nair, B; Nash, J H; Ncinane, I Z; Ndzanga, R A; Nefolovhodwe, P J; Nel, A C; Nene, N M; Newhoudt-Druchen, W S; Ngaleka, E; Ngcengwane, N D; Ngcobo, N; Ngculu, L V J; Ngema, M V; Ngubeni, J M; Nhlengethwa, D G; Njobe, M A A; Nqodi, S B; Ntombela, S H; Ntshulana- Bhengu, N R; Ntuli, B M; Ntuli, J T; Ntuli, M B; Ntuli, S B; Nxumalo, S N; Olckers, M E; Olifant, D A A; Oliphant, G G; Oosthuizen, G C; Pahad, A G H; Pahad, E G; Phadagi, M G; Phala, M J; Pieterse, R D; Pillay, R; Radebe, B A; Radebe, J T; Rajbally, S; Ramakaba-Lesiea, M M; Ramgobin, M; Ramotsamai, C M P; Rasmeni, S M; Reid, L R R; Rhoda, R T; Ripinga, S S; Robertsen, M O; Roopnarain, U; Rwexana, S P; Saloojee, E (Cassim); Schippers, J; Schneeman, G D; Schoeman, E A; Schoeman, R S; Seeco, M A; September, C C; September, R K; Shabalala, T; Shabangu, S; Sibande, M P; Sibiya, M S M; Sigcau, S N; Sigwela, E M; Sikakane, M R; Sisulu, L N; Sithole, D J; Skhosana, W M; Skweyiya, Z S T; Smith, P F; Smith, V G; Solo, B M; Soloman, G; Sonjica, B P; Sosibo, J E; Sotyu, M M; Tarr, M A; Tinto, B; Tolo, L J; Tshabalala-Msimang, M E; Tshwete, P; Twala, N M; Van der Merwe, A S; Van Jaarsveld, A Z A; Van Wyk, A; Van Wyk, A; Van Wyk, J F; Van den Heever, R P Z; Van der Merwe, S C; Vezi, T E; Woods, G G; Xulu, M; Zita, L; Zondo, R P.
NOES - 45: Andrew, K M; Aucamp, C; Bell, B G; Blaas, A; Borman, G; Camerer, S; Da Camara, M L; De Lille, P; Delport, J T; Ditshetelo, P H K; Doman, W; Eglin, C W; Ellis, M J; Farrow, S B; Gibson, D H M; Grobler, G A J; Groenewald, P J; Kalyan, S; Koornhof, N J; Le Roux, W; Lee, T D; Lowe, C M; Maluleke, D K; McIntosh, G B D; Millen, T E; Moorcroft, E K; Mulder, C P; Mulder, P W A; Nel, A H; Ntuli, R S; Opperman, S E; Rabie, P; Redcliffe, C R; Schalkwyk, P; Semple, J A; Seremane, J; Smuts, M; Southgate, R M; Steele, M H; Swart, P S; Swart, S N; Taljaard, R; Theron, J L; Van Deventer, F; Waters, M.
Vote No 16 accordingly agreed to.
Vote No 17 - Labour - put.
Declarations of vote:
Mr C R REDCLIFFE: Chairperson, the DA will not be supporting this Vote.
The department states that its aim is to, and I quote:
… play a significant role in reducing unemployment, poverty and inequality through a set of policies and programmes developed in consultation with roleplayers aimed at improved economic efficiency, productivity, skills development and employment creation, sound labour relations, eliminating inequality and discrimination in the workplace, alleviating poverty as well as unemployment, and the protection and enhancement of worker rights and benefits is also part of the aim.
As far as its intended aim of reducing unemployment, this department has failed dismally. Since 1994, approximately one million jobs have been lost on their watch. The department has seen increasing unemployment, which now stands at approximately 7,6 million and close to 40% of the economically active population. It seems they have no strategy in place to reduce our unemployment levels. The consequence is that poverty and inequality is increasing day by day.
This department is not fulfilling its core mandate. It is a serious indictment on the department and the Minister.
The DA believes that skills development should enjoy very high priority. The co-ordination of the Sector Education Training Authority, Seta, is supposed to ensure the effective and efficient implementation of the Skills Development Strategy at sector level. There is overwhelming evidence that Setas are not working and should be scrapped. They have become self-serving with exorbitant salaries, equally big egos and with little or no delivery. The Setas are accumulating huge bank balances with no capacity to distribute the money to perform their core function. I thank you.
Ms T E MILLEN: Chairperson, this time I will just say that I will not be supporting this Vote and I support the call for the division that will be coming. I do not agree with the labour laws at all. The sooner they go, the sooner we will have people employed. Thank you.
Mr C AUCAMP: Hon Chairperson, I am against this Vote as well. [Laughter.]
As ons reeds ‘n werkloosheidsyfer van 40% het, Meneer, hoe kan ons sê dat die Departement van Arbeid in sy doel slaag; veral as dié syfer steeds styg? Verder is dit so dat arbeidswetgewing ontwikkeling strem. Daar word voortdurend daarop gewys. Die President het daarop in sy heel eerste openingsrede gewys en daardie wetgewing word nie aangespreek nie.
Die rigiditeit van die departement ten opsigte van die stelsel van minimumlone bring verdere werkloosheid mee. Dis nie ek wat so sê nie, dis die Premier van die Noordelike Provinsie, mnr Ramatlhodi, wat dit sê.
Wat betref die kwessie van regstellende aksie, verlaat van ons beste mensemateriaal die land. Die NA kan nie hierdie departement se begroting steun nie. Ek dank u. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)
[If we already have an unemployment figure of 40%, Sir, how can we say that the Department of Labour achieves its goal; especially if this figure keeps rising? Furthermore, it is so that labour legislation hampers development. This is constantly being pointed out. The President indicated this in his very first state of the nation address, and that legislation is not being addressed.
The rigidity of the department regarding the system of minimum wages causes further increases in unemployment. It is not I who says so, it is the Premier of the Northern Province, Mr Ramatlhodi, who says that.
Regarding the issue of employment equity, our best human material is leaving the country. The NA cannot support this department’s budget. I thank you.]
Mr M S MANIE: Chairperson, the Labour Vote that some parties are voting against today is about a Vote that has dealt with some of the most discriminatory laws and practices in our country.
Addressing the effect of the old apartheid laws forms the core of the work of the Department of Labour. So when parties vote against this Vote, they vote against eradicating discrimination in the workplace. [Interjections.] They vote against raising the skills level in the labour market. They vote against giving domestic workers and farmworkers better working conditions. [Applause.]
What do they, who vote against this Vote, want? [Interjections.] Do they want the top jobs in the country to still be filled by white males? [Interjections.] Do they want black people to remain unskilled and only doing manual labour? Do they want domestic workers and farmworkers to still be paid and treated like slaves? If this is so, then what they want is apartheid. [Interjections.]
We all know what the DA’s policy about fight-back is about. It is to fight blacks improving their lives and to retain white privilege. This is racist and yet they accuse us of playing the racist card. [Interjections.] They don’t care about finding solutions to the problems of South Africa. They are more obsessed with what is happening in Zimbabwe. We support this Vote for a better life for all. Viva ANC, Viva ! [Applause.] [Interjections.]
Division demanded.
The House divided:
AYES - 250: Abrahams, T; Abram, S; Ainslie, A R; Arendse, J D; Bakker, D M; Balfour, B M N; Baloyi, M R; Baloyi, S F; Bapela, O; Benjamin, J; Beukman, F; Bhengu, F; Biyela, B P; Blaas, A; Bloem, D V; Bogopane, H I; Booi, M S; Botha, N G W; Buthelezi, M G; Cachalia, I M; Chalmers, J; Chiba, L; Chikane, M M; Chohan-Khota, F I; Cindi, N V; Cwele, S C; Davies, R H; De Lille, P; Diale, L N; Didiza, A T; Dithebe, S L; Ditshetelo, P H K; Dlali, D M; Dlamini, B O; Douglas, B M; Du Toit, D C; Duma, N M; Durand, J; Dyani, M M Z; Erwin, A; Ferreira, E T; Fihla, N B; Fraser-Moleketi, G J; Frolick, C T; Geldenhuys, B L; George, M E; Gerber, P A; Gillwald, C E; Gogotya, N J; Goniwe, M T; Goosen, A D; Gous, S J; Greyling, C H F; Gumede, D M; Gxowa, N B; Hanekom, D A; Hendrickse, P A C; Herandien, C B; Hlaneki, C J; Hlengwa, M W; Hogan, B A; Jeebodh, T; Joemat, R R; Jordan, Z P; Kannemeyer, B W; Kasrils, R; Kati, J Z; Kgarimetsa, J J; Kgauwe, Q J; Kgwele, L G; Komphela, B M; Koornhof, G W; Kota, Z A; Kotwal, Z; Landers, L T; Lekgoro, M K; Lekota, M G P; Lobe, M C; Lockey, D; Louw, J T; Louw, S K; Lucas, E J; Ludwabe, C I; Luthuli, A N; Mabandla, B S; Mabe, L L; Mabena, D C; Mabuyakhulu, V D; Mabuza, D D; Magashule, E S; Magazi, M N; Magubane, N E; Magwanishe, G B; Mahomed, F; Maimane, D S; Makasi, X C; Malahlela, M J; Maloney, L; Malumise, M M; Manie, M S; Manuel, T A; Mapisa-Nqakula, N N; Mars, I; Martins, B A D; Masala, M M; Maserumule, F T; Mashimbye, J N; Masithela, N H; Masutha, M T; Mathibela, N F; Matlanyane, H F; Matsepe-Casaburri, I F; Matthews, V J G; Maunye, M M; Mayatula, S M; Maziya, M A; Mbadi, L M; Mbombo, N D; Mbuyazi, L R; Mdladlana, M M S; Mentor, M P; Middleton, N S; Mkono, D G; Mlangeni, A; Mngomezulu, G P; Mnguni, B A; Mnumzana, S K; Moatshe, M S; Modise, T R; Modisenyane, L J; Moeketse, K M; Mofokeng, T R; Mogoba, M S; Mohamed, I J; Mohlala, R J B; Mokoena, A D; Molebatsi, M A; Moloi, J; Moloto, K A; Montsitsi, S D; Moonsamy, K; Moosa, M V; Morobi, D M; Moropa, R M; Morutoa, M R; Mothoagae, P K; Motubatse-Hounkpatin, S D; Mpahlwa, M B; Mpaka, H M; Mpontshane, A M; Mshudulu, S A; Mthembu, B; Mthethwa, E N; Mtsweni, N S; Mudau, N W; Mufamadi, F S; Mzondeki, M J G; Nair, B; Nash, J H; Ncinane, I Z; Ndzanga, R A; Nefolovhodwe, P J; Nel, A C; Nene, N M; Newhoudt-Druchen, W S; Ngaleka, E; Ngcengwane, N D; Ngcobo, N; Ngculu, L V J; Ngema, M V; Ngubeni, J M; Nhlengethwa, D G; Njobe, M A A; Nqodi, S B; Ntombela, S H; Ntshulana-Bhengu, N R; Ntuli, B M; Ntuli, J T; Ntuli, M B; Ntuli, S B; Nxumalo, S N; Olckers, M E; Olifant, D A A; Oliphant, G G; Oosthuizen, G C; Pahad, A G H; Pahad, E G; Phadagi, M G; Phala, M J; Pieterse, R D; Pillay, R; Radebe, B A; Radebe, J T; Rajbally, S; Ramakaba-Lesiea, M M; Ramgobin, M; Ramotsamai, C M P; Rasmeni, S M; Reid, L R R; Rhoda, R T; Ripinga, S S; Robertsen, M O; Roopnarain, U; Rwexana, S P; Saloojee, E (Cassim); Schippers, J; Schneeman, G D; Schoeman, E A; Schoeman, R S; September, C C; September, R K; Shabalala, T; Shabangu, S; Sibande, M P; Sibiya, M S M; Sigcau, S N; Sigwela, E M; Sikakane, M R; Sisulu, L N; Sithole, D J; Skhosana, W M; Skweyiya, Z S T; Smith, P F; Smith, V G; Solo, B M; Soloman, G; Sonjica, B P; Sosibo, J E; Sotyu, M M; Southgate, R M; Swart, S N; Tarr, M A; Tinto, B; Tolo, L J; Tshabalala-Msimang, M E; Tshwete, P; Turok, B; Twala, N M; Van der Merwe, A S; Van Jaarsveld, A Z A; Van Wyk, A; Van Wyk, A; Van Wyk, J F; Van den Heever, R P Z; Van der Merwe, S C; Vezi, T E; Woods, G G; Xulu, M; Zita, L; Zondo, R P.
NOES - 41: Andrew, K M; Aucamp, C; Bell, B G; Blanché, S; Borman, G; Camerer, S; Da Camara, M L; Delport, J T; Doman, W; Eglin, C W; Ellis, M J; Farrow, S B; Gibson, D H M; Grobler, G A J; Groenewald, P J; Kalyan, S; Koornhof, N J; Le Roux, W; Lee, T D; Lowe, C M; Maluleke, D K; McIntosh, G B D; Millen, T E; Moorcroft, E K; Mulder, C P; Mulder, P W A; Nel, A H; Ntuli, R S; Opperman, S E; Rabie, P; Redcliffe, C R; Schalkwyk, P; Semple, J A; Seremane, J; Smuts, M; Steele, M H; Swart, P S; Taljaard, R; Theron, J L; Van Deventer, F; Waters, M.
Vote No 17 accordingly agreed to.
Vote No 18 - Science and Technology - put and agreed to.
Vote No 19 - Social Development - put.
Declarations of vote: Mrs G M BORMAN: Chairperson, the DA will be supporting this budget. [Interjections.] We welcome the increases to the grants. We also welcome the extension of the Child Support Grant, but we want to see that extended immediately to children up to fourteen years old. When the President announced that this would be extended progressively, he actually caused tremendous confusion out there.
The DA will again urge the Minister to introduce the Basic Income Grant. The submissions made at the Taylor Report hearings were overwhelmingly in favour, and researchers who began their research opposed to the BIG finished up saying that this was the only way to go. It’s the ANC-led Government that is standing in the way of the Basic Income Grant. [Interjections.]
Last Friday morning the first news bulletin on SAfm carried the news that 500 pensioners had not been paid in the Eastern Cape. On Sunday we read in the Sunday Times of IDs being issued incorrectly again and again, resulting in poor children not getting their grants. This shambles gets worse instead of better.
A few days earlier a woman died waiting in the queue. In February two other people died waiting in queues. How many more deaths will it take for the ANC to take effective action? It’s all very well appointing task groups, monitoring groups and all sorts of other talkshops to find out what is going wrong. We know what is going wrong: People are not doing their jobs properly, Minister, and they need to be fired. Increasing budgets means absolutely nothing, if those getting the money out to the people for whom it is intended, don’t in fact do so.
HON MEMBERS: Hear! Hear! [Applause.]
Mr A Z A VAN JAARSVELD: Chairperson, we all know that the hon Minister and the department are very serious about taking care of the pensioners and those people who are eligible for social grants. [Interjections.] Yet the DA comes here today and they make a big spiel. They use the sensitive issue of people dying in queues for cheap political gain. [Interjections.] We all know that there are problems in the Eastern Cape with regard to those people who’ve been contracted in.
The New NP supports the Budget Vote, yet at the same time we believe that the Minister and his department have to deal with agents that work on behalf of the Government and tarnish the image of this Government in terms of looking after its people. We want to urge the Minister to launch a thorough investigation into CPS specifically in the Eastern Cape. I thank you. [Applause.]
Mrs R M SOUTHGATE: Chairperson, we know that the greatest challenge the Government faces is to work on the strategy of poverty alleviation while they are at the same time trying to reduce the number of people dependent on social development. One of the basic problems, though, appears to be a lack of adequate staffing and a lack of leadership capacity.
The Auditor-General’s report shows that the Department of Social Development has a huge personnel vacancy of between 20% to 41,8%. It is unacceptable that a department that is responsible for addressing the most basic needs of the people is incapable of appointing personnel to do its work.
There is also a problem regarding service delivery and this must be improved. Let me also say to the Minister that we definitely need an increase in the number of social workers. There is a tremendous need for them in the communities that we do serve.
Besides alleviating problems of poverty, people also need properly equipped infrastructure to go to when they experience social problems. It is very sad to see how the state is letting our people down. Social services are falling apart while what is simply required is for the department to take resolute steps to employ more people.
A better policy is needed at paypoint stations to administer payouts. Long queues, as you have seen, Minister, have obviously resulted in deaths and so forth. We want to see that at least Social Development is proactive in alleviating those problems, in fact, eradicating them. The long queues should actually not be there. The ACDP supports this Budget Vote, thank you.
Ms T E MILLEN: Thank you, Chairperson. Notwithstanding the various concerns, including those mentioned by the Official Opposition, the IAM supports this Vote. I thank you. [Interjections.]
Mr E SALOOJEE: Mr Chairperson, first of all let me just point out that the hypocrisy of the DA stinks to the high heavens. [Interjections.] And I’ll tell you why. [Interjections.] Listen, I’ll tell you why. With the whole range of grants that we had, just a short while ago we set up, in a very urgent situation, a multiparty delegation to go and look at how ID documents are provided as well as at the problems with the payout companies. We spent a whole week, in fact, with the recent events that had occurred … [Interjections.] … Just give me a chance … [Interjections.] Not one of them attended the portfolio committee meetings in which we were discussing this. [Interjections.]
When we went on on-site visits, none of them went. [Interjections.] They stand here and they become passionate about it. They don’t want to go there and see the real suffering of the people and this is not the fault of Social Development. It is unfortunate that some of the payout companies are not carrying out the mandate that they were given and are not consistent with the contracts they signed with the ANC. So for the DA to talk about … [Interjections.] Why were they not able to come? [Interjections.]
Now, at portfolio committee meetings too, it is in Social Development that we deal with the issues of the poor, the needy and the rural people who are suffering. They send their weakest people there who could not even understand the issues of social … [Laughter.] … the weakest ones of them. [Interjections.] They would sit there. Their contribution to that debate is nil. In fact, what they do there is to obstruct us. [Time expired.] [Applause.]
Vote No 19 accordingly agreed to.
Vote No 20 - Sport and Recreation South Africa - put.
Declarations of vote:
Mr T D LEE: Chairperson … [Interjections.] Chairperson, in any other country sport would serve a more noble cause. It would be a source of inspiration. Through sport ordinary people could aspire to great things. Most importantly, it would serve to unite a nation behind a common goal.
Under the ANC, however, sport has become a source of division and turmoil. Under the ANC sport seems only to divide the people of this country. [Interjections.] Under the ANC South African sport has become a political tool in the hands of a small elite.
The DA cannot and will not support this Budget Vote, because, as in years before, money that should be spent on development is wasted on an already bloated bureaucracy. Money that should be used for the betterment of sporting facilities and training of the country’s youth is instead channelled into the national Sports Commission, an organisation that simply reflects the duties of the department itself.
The DA cannot support a budget that puts an administrative gravy train ahead of the needs of ordinary South Africans. [Interjections.] The DA understands that sport does not belong to the ANC. [Interjections.] The ANC understands that this budget should be to the benefit of all South Africans. Simply put, unlike the ANC, the DA says that this budget should serve all our people. By that we mean all South Africans. [Interjections.]
Dr C P MULDER: Mr Chairperson, during the apartheid days it was said: ``You cannot have normal sport in an abnormal society.’’ Today, unfortunately, you cannot have normal sport with abnormal interference and quotas.
Die feit van die saak is, hierdie Minister en sy departement het bewys dat Suid-Afrika eintlik nie ‘n Minister van Sport nodig het nie. Die wyse waarop sport verpolitiseer word, is tot niemand se voordeel nie. Ons betaal elke dag die prys daarvan en Suid-Afrika is moeg daarvoor. Ek stel voor ons skaf die departement af, met Minister en al, en kry eerder ‘n departement vir werkskepping. Dankie. [Tussenwerpsels.] (Translation of Afrikaans paragraph follows.)
[The fact of the matter is, this Minister and his department has proven that South Africa does not really need a Minister of Sport. The way in which sport is politicised is advantageous for no-one. We pay the price thereof every day and South Africa is tired of this. I suggest that we do away with the department, Minister and all, and rather have a department for job creation. Thank you. [Interjections.]
Ms T E MILLEN: Thank you, Chairperson. This is a Vote that shouldn’t even be a Vote. It is just total nonsense and it is a total waste of money, time and effort. [Interjections.] Just let sportsmen get on with the job of playing for our country, for all of us. [Interjections.] Thank you, and I definitely will be supporting the call for a division on this Vote. [Interjections.]
Mnr C AUCAMP: Mnr die Voorsitter, dit gaan nie orals goed met Suid- Afrikaanse sport nie, en dit is insiggewend dat dit met individuele sportsoorte goed gaan, maar sleg met die spansportsoorte. Waarom? Dit is by spansportsoorte wat die Regering se groot inmenging, kwotastelsels en wat nog meer in die prentjie kom. Hierdie departement is vir my as’t ware die toonbeeld en die simbool van die sentralisme en totalitarisme waarmee die Regering ongebreideld inmeng op elke lewensterrein. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraph follows.)
[Mr C AUCAMP: Mr Chairperson, South African sport is not doing well in every respect and it is illuminating that it is going well with individual types of sport, but badly with team sports. Why? It is in team sports that the Government’s major interference, quota systems and whatever else come into the picture. This department, as it were, is to me an example and a symbol of the centralism and totalitarianism with which the Government interferes unbridled in every walk of life.]
The NA’s vote against this Budget Vote is a vote against Big Brother in the South African society. I thank you.
Ms M R BHENGU: Chairperson, we in the ANC support this Budget Vote. The ANC Government’s policy on Sport and Recreation’s theme of ``Getting the nation to play,’’ outlines the following objectives, amongst others: To increase the level of participation in sport and recreation; and to maximise the probability of success in major sports.
These stated objectives, which are key to our transformation agenda, underpin the ANC Goverment’s policy of promoting sport representivity and excellence in sport.
The UCB, in a document presented to its own 2002 consolidation conference, observed:
Sport cannot consider itself outside the Government’s political agenda, nor is it independent of the Government’s transformation drive. Sport is no different to any other institution, business, education, with respect to transformation.
For effective transformation in sport to take place within an acceptable time, Government will have to play a leadership role in the establishment of an overall transformation plan for implementation by sport in general and selected number of sporting codes in particular.
This demonstrates that sports federations are in agreement with Government when it says transformation, unity, redress and merit are an integral part of dealing with the legacy of apartheid and promoting the development of sport.
Unlike other political parties, the self-appointed spokespersons for sports federations, who misrepresent federations, the FA and the IAM, have not attended a single meeting of the Portfolio Committee on Sports and Recreation. [Interjections.]
We are making progress and we will continue to work for transformation in South Africa. The ANC supports this Budget Vote. [Applause.]
Division demanded.
The House divided:
AYES - 248: Abrahams, T; Abram, S; Ainslie, A R; Arendse, J D; Asmal, A K; Bakker, D M; Balfour, B M N; Baloyi, M R; Baloyi, S F; Bapela, O; Benjamin, J; Beukman, F; Bhengu, F; Biyela, B P; Blaas, A; Bloem, D V; Bogopane, H I; Booi, M S; Botha, N G W; Buthelezi, M G; Cachalia, I M; Chalmers, J; Chiba, L; Chikane, M M; Chohan-Khota, F I; Cindi, N V; Cwele, S C; Davies, R H; De Lille, P; Diale, L N; Didiza, A T; Dithebe, S L; Ditshetelo, P H K; Dlali, D M; Dlamini, B O; Douglas, B M; Du Toit, D C; Duma, N M; Durand, J; Dyani, M M Z; Erwin, A; Ferreira, E T; Fihla, N B; Fraser-Moleketi, G J; Frolick, C T; Geldenhuys, B L; George, M E; Gerber, P A; Gillwald, C E; Gogotya, N J; Goosen, A D; Gous, S J; Greyling, C H F; Gumede, D M; Gxowa, N B; Hanekom, D A; Hendrickse, P A C; Herandien, C B; Hlengwa, M W; Hogan, B A; Jeebodh, T; Joemat, R R; Jordan, Z P; Kannemeyer, B W; Kasrils, R; Kati, J Z; Kgarimetsa, J J; Kgauwe, Q J; Kgwele, L G; Komphela, B M; Koornhof, G W; Kota, Z A; Kotwal, Z; Landers, L T; Lekgoro, M K; Lekota, M G P; Lobe, M C; Lockey, D; Louw, J T; Louw, S K; Lucas, E J; Ludwabe, C I; Luthuli, A N; Mabandla, B S; Mabe, L L; Mabena, D C; Mabuyakhulu, V D; Magashule, E S; Magazi, M N; Magubane, N E; Magwanishe, G B; Mahomed, F; Maimane, D S; Makasi, X C; Malahlela, M J; Maloney, L; Malumise, M M; Manie, M S; Manuel, T A; Mapisa-Nqakula, N N; Mars, I; Martins, B A D; Masala, M M; Maserumule, F T; Mashimbye, J N; Masithela, N H; Masutha, M T; Mathibela, N F; Matlanyane, H F; Matsepe-Casaburri, I F; Matthews, V J G; Maunye, M M; Mayatula, S M; Maziya, M A; Mbadi, L M; Mbombo, N D; Mbuyazi, L R; Mdladlana, M M S; Mentor, M P; Middleton, N S; Mkono, D G; Mlangeni, A; Mngomezulu, G P; Mnguni, B A; Mnumzana, S K; Moatshe, M S; Modise, T R; Modisenyane, L J; Moeketse, K M; Mofokeng, T R; Mohamed, I J; Mohlala, R J B; Mokoena, A D; Molebatsi, M A; Moloi, J; Moloto, K A; Montsitsi, S D; Moonsamy, K; Moosa, M V; Morobi, D M; Moropa, R M; Morutoa, M R; Mothoagae, P K; Motubatse-Hounkpatin, S D; Mpahlwa, M B; Mpaka, H M; Mpontshane, A M; Mshudulu, S A; Mthembu, B; Mthethwa, E N; Mtsweni, N S; Mudau, N W; Mufamadi, F S; Mzondeki, M J G; Nash, J H; Ncinane, I Z; Ndzanga, R A; Nefolovhodwe, P J; Nel, A C; Nene, N M; Newhoudt-Druchen, W S; Ngaleka, E; Ngcengwane, N D; Ngcobo, N; Ngculu, L V J; Ngema, M V; Ngubeni, J M; Nhlengethwa, D G; Niemann, J J; Njobe, M A A; Nqodi, S B; Ntombela, S H; Ntshulana-Bhengu, N R; Ntuli, B M; Ntuli, J T; Ntuli, M B; Ntuli, S B; Nxumalo, S N; Olckers, M E; Olifant, D A A; Oliphant, G G; Oosthuizen, G C; Pahad, A G H; Pahad, E G; Phadagi, M G; Pieterse, R D; Pillay, R; Radebe, B A; Radebe, J T; Rajbally, S; Ramakaba-Lesiea, M M; Ramgobin, M; Ramotsamai, C M P; Rasmeni, S M; Reid, L R R; Rhoda, R T; Ripinga, S S; Robertsen, M O; Roopnarain, U; Rwexana, S P; Saloojee, E (Cassim); Schippers, J; Schneeman, G D; Schoeman, E A; Schoeman, R S; Seeco, M A; September, C C; September, R K; Shabalala, T; Shabangu, S; Sibande, M P; Sibiya, M S M; Sigcau, S N; Sigwela, E M; Sikakane, M R; Sisulu, L N; Sithole, D J; Skhosana, W M; Skweyiya, Z S T; Smith, P F; Smith, V G; Solo, B M; Soloman, G; Sonjica, B P; Sosibo, J E; Sotyu, M M; Southgate, R M; Swart, S N; Tarr, M A; Tinto, B; Tolo, L J; Tshabalala- Msimang, M E; Tshwete, P; Turok, B; Twala, N M; Vadi, I; Van Der Merwe, A S; Van Jaarsveld, A Z A; Van Wyk, A; Van Wyk, A; Van Wyk, J F; Van den Heever, R P Z; Van der Merwe, S C; Vezi, T E; Woods, G G; Xulu, M; Zita, L; Zondo, R P;
NOES - 41: Andrew, K M; Aucamp, C; Bell, B G; Blanché, S; Borman, G; Camerer, S; Da Camara, M L; Delport, J T; Doman, W; Eglin, C W; Ellis, M J; Farrow, S B; Gibson, D H M; Grobler, G A J; Groenewald, P J; Kalyan, S; Koornhof, N J; Le Roux, W; Lee, T D; Leon, A J; Lowe, C M; Maluleke, D K; McIntosh, G B D; Millen, T E; Moorcroft, E K; Mulder, C P; Nel, A H; Ntuli, R S; Opperman, S E; Rabie, P; Redcliffe, C R; Schalkwyk, P; Semple, J A; Seremane, J; Smuts, M; Steele, M H; Swart, P S; Taljaard, R; Theron, J L; Van Deventer, F; Waters, M.
Vote No 20 accordingly agreed to.
Vote No 21 - Correctional Services - put.
Declarations of vote:
Dr J T DELPORT: Mnr die Voorsitter, die witskrif van die Departement van Korrektiewe Dienste sê die volgende:
Ons glo dat oortreders die potensiaal het om positiewe gedragsveranderings te ondergaan en as wetsgehoorsame burgers te lewe. Ons doel is dus om sodanige geleenthede, fasiliteite en dienste te voorsien en aanhoudingstoestande te skep wat rehabilitasie en ontwikkeling bevorder.
Die departement se verklaring van voorneme verwys spesifiek na die volgende:
… die doeltreffende en veilige bewaking ter beskerming van die gemeenskap, menswaardige behandeling van oortreders …
In hierdie opsig druip die departement die toets hoofsaaklik as gevolg van die oorbesetting van gevangenisse. Die Departement van Korrektiewe Dienste respekteer en onderskryf die reg van elke gevangene om aangehou te word onder omstandighede wat hulle menswaardigheid eerbiedig.
Voorts respekteer die departement en onderskryf die gevangene se reg tot kwaliteit gesondheidsorg.
In sy missiestelling sê die departement:
Die werk van die departement is mense-georiënteerd en ons is dus daartoe verbind om ‘n kultuur van menseregte in elke faset van ons werk uit te leef.
Die toestande in gevangenisse, primêr as gevolg van oorbesetting, maak van hierdie ideaal ‘n bespotting. Die strafregstelsel dra ‘n ontsaglike verantwoordelikheid ten opsigte van die beskerming van individuele regte in die besonder en menseregte in die algemeen. Die departement slaag nie die toets van die beskerming van menseregte nie. Hy slaag nie die toets van die erkenning van menswaardigheid nie. Die departement slaag ook nie die toets van korrektiewe optrede nie.
Die DA doen weer eens ‘n ernstige beroep op die Kabinet om die toekenning van fondse aan die departement opwaarts aan te pas sodat hy sy werk na behore kan doen en die Grondwet se voorskrifte ten opsigte van die beskerming van menseregte kan uitvoer. Ons kan nie hierdie begrotingspos steun nie. [Tussenwerpsels.] (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)
[Dr J T DELPORT: Mr Chairperson, the White Paper of the Department of Correctional Services says the following:
We believe that offenders have the potential to undergo positive changes in behaviour and to live as law-abiding citizens. Our aim therefore is to provide such opportunities, facilities and services and to create detention conditions which would promote rehabilitation and development.
The department’s declaration of intent refers to the following specifically:
… the effective and safe guarding in protection of the community, humane treatment of offenders …
In this respect the department fails the test mainly as a result of the overcrowding of prisons. The department of correctional services respects and endorses the right of every prisoner to be held under circumstances which respects their dignity.
Furthermore, the department respects and endorses the right of the prisoner to quality health care. In its mission statement the department says the following:
The work of the department is people-oriented and we are therefore committed to living out the culture of human rights in every facet of our work.
The conditions in prisons, primarily as a result of overcrowding, makes a mockery of this ideal. The justice system carries an immense responsibility with regards to the protection of individual rights in particular and human rights in general. The department does not pass the test with regard to the protection of human rights. It does not pass the test with regard to the acknowledgement of human dignity. The department also does not pass the test with regard to correctional action.
The DA is once again making an earnest appeal to Cabinet to upwardly adjust the allocation of funds to the department so that it can do its work properly and to enable it to carry out the provisions of the Constitution with regard to the protection of human rights. We cannot support this budget vote. [Interjections.]]
Mr S N SWART: Chairman, the ACDP will not support this Budget Vote. [Interjections.] Whilst being supportive of public-private partnerships, the ACDP continues to share concerns that the Apops 25-year contract will drain the department continuously. The problem of overcrowding is further aggravated by the fact that the PPS prisons may not be overcrowded. We thus sit with two worlds in South Africa: The very modern PPS prisons and the appallingly overcrowded other state prisons. I have no doubt that a constitutional challenge would succeed on grounds of equality.
The Jali Commission also informed the committee that the investigation into various prisons has unearthed many cases of malpractice. There’s confirmation of widespread irregularities involving prisoners leaving the premises illegally, nepotism, drug trafficking, irregular appointments of personnel and massive medical-aid fraud. The fact that 25 members have been seconded from the special investigation unit indicates the widespread nature of offences and irregularities.
To be sentenced to a jail sentence today is often a death sentence, in view of the high levels of sodomy. I will never forget, when we were recently in North End Prison - the hon Johnny de Lange and I - we saw a child of 14 years old, and when we looked at him he turned away and started crying. When we asked him what was wrong, he said to me: ``Die kinders was stout met my gewees,’’ and told us that he had been sodomised. So the ACDP, in the light of these circumstances, cannot support this Budget Vote. I thank you. [Interjections.]
Mr J N MASHIMBYE: Mr Chairman, the responsibility to govern South Africa will always remain the responsibility of the ANC. [Interjections.] It is appropriate that the ANC, in spite of our unwilling partners and the unwilling citizens of our country, that we proceed to do that which has been entrusted to us by the majority of South Africans, and that is to govern the Republic. We will not be deterred by self-seeking individuals of no consequence who represent their own jackets here in the responsibilities we have. [Interjections.]
The Department of Correctional Services has undergone numerous and different stages of organisational change. This has impacted hugely on the culture and workings of the department. However, the primary function of the DCS has remained the safe custody of offenders. The DCS strives to provide adequate prison accommodation, enriching rehabilitation programmes, humane detention and treatment of offenders, reintegration programmes for probationers and parolees, and resource management that addresses all these initiatives.
The most serious stumbling block in the way of the institution of effective rehabilitation programmes and provision of humane care and treatment of offenders is overcrowding. Many are well acquainted with the daily statistics in support of the conditions of overcrowding. The budget for rehabilitation increased by an average of 8,3%. However, over the medium- term the growth of the programme slowed down, owing to pressure on the Vote of the rising prison population. As indicated by the department, most of the increase is due to administrative expenditure. This reflects the department’s determination to focus on putting rehabilitation at the centre of its activities by shifting funds to the rehabilitation of prisoners.
It is with great conviction that I’m able to offer my support for this Vote and urge that the integrated justice system places the overcrowding of our prisons and the numbers of awaiting-trial prisoners on their list of priorities. [Applause.]
Vote agreed to (Democratic Alliance, African Christian Democratic Party, Federal Alliance and Independent African Movement dissenting).
Vote No 22 - Defence - put. Declarations of vote:
Brig Gen P J SCHALKWYK: Hon Chairperson, the 6% increase in the Defence budget is being usurped by the special defence account responsible for the cost of the arms deal. A 9% increase in the salaries of personnel and the repayment of the arms deal, which has increased by approximately R1 billion, have inflated the special defence account to R8,8 billion, or approximately 44% of the Defence budget. It is therefore clear that the arms deal has been concluded at the cost of the SANDF and not in aid of the SANDF.
This is a disparity between the funding of the department and the required commitments requested from the SANDF. Financial problems are being foreseen with regards to the funding of the Hawk fighter aircraft and, more particularly, the Gripen fighter, on which Cabinet has to take a decision soon. A review of the Defence Review is critically needed. An exit mechanism for the approximately 15 000 troops who have to be replaced by young, fit and healthy troops is urgently needed. The deterioration of the personnel’s health status constitutes the biggest threat to the operational effectiveness of the SANDF. The DA does not support this Budget Vote. [Interjections.]
Mnr P J GROENEWALD: Mnr die Voorsitter, om die totale kommandostelsel in plek te hou kos R110 miljoen per jaar. Oor die aankondiging dat kommando’s uitgefaseer gaan word, sê die VF die besluit was ondeurdag, dis impulsief en dis gebaseer op verkeerde feite.
Die kommando’s word aangewend, nie net vir landelike beveiliging nie, maar as daar ‘n groot sportgebeurtenis plaasvind, soos die Wêreldbeker- kriekettoernooi, dan is die kommandolede goed genoeg om hulle dienste te kom aanbied. Daar is nie iets in die plek van die kommando’s nie. Dis ‘n feit. [Tussenwerpsels.]
Toe die aankondiging gedoen is, was die lede in die Weermag onkant gevang, die lede in die SA Polisiediens was onkant gevang. Daar was nie ‘n plan in plek nie. Daar word nou daaraan gewerk, en dit is ‘n verdere bewys dat dit ondeurdag is. [Tussenwerpsels.]
Verder wil ek ook meld dat die agb lid mev Thandi Modise, die voorsitter van die portefeuljekomitee, self haar kommer uitgespreek het omdat daar te min fondse beskikbaar is vir interne verdediging in Suid-Afrika. Die agb Minister het met sy begroting aangekondig dat Afrika nou belangriker is as Suid-Afrika. Die VF kan dit nie aanvaar nie, en die agb Minister kan maar lag. Ek wil vir hom sê: Afrika gaan sy ondergang wees. Die VF sal nie hierdie begrotingspos steun nie. [Tussenwerpsels.] (Translation of Afrikaans speech follows.)
[Mr P J GROENEWALD: Mr Chairperson, it costs R110 million per year to keep the entire commando system in place. With regard to the announcement that commandos are to be phased out, the FF says that the decision was ill- considered, it is impulsive and it is based on inaccurate facts.
The commandos are utilised, not only for rural safeguarding, but when a large sporting event takes place, such as the Cricket World Cup; then the commando members are so good as to offer their services. There is nothing in place of the commandos. That is a fact. [Interjections.]
When the announcement was made, the members in the Defence Force were taken unawares, and the members in the SA Police Service were taken unawares. There was no plan in place. It is now being worked on, and that is further evidence that this was ill-considered. [Interjections.]
Furthermore, I would also like to mention that the hon member Mrs Thandi Modise, the chairperson of the portfolio committee, expressed her concern because there is inadequate funding available for internal defence in South Africa. The hon Minister announced in his budget that Africa is now more important than South Africa. The FF cannot accept this, and the hon Minister may laugh. I want to tell him: Africa is going to be his downfall. The FF will not support this Vote. [Interjections.]]
Ms T R MODISE: Mr Chairman, precisely because there is no way you can achieve stability or the ideals and aspirations of the African leaders in Africa without making sure that the SA National Defence Force is well trained and better equipped, that is the reason why we stood here. Yes, I did complain about the real-terms increase of the Defence budget.
But because we are proud of the department and the achievements thus far, we are proud of what we are acquiring for the SA National Defence Force. Because if we do not acquire that special defence package, we will not have a defence force. Therefore it is actually very myopic for members to stand here and say because we are paying for the defence package we are not supporting the Department of Defence. It is myopic. It is myopic because when we inherited the Air Force and the Navy they were very badly equipped.
When you say that you want a credible and professional defence force, you must be able to pay. When you talk - and these hon members here tell us about the situation in Zimbabwe - then you must train to ensure that indeed you can tangibly begin to contribute towards the rule of law, peace and stability in the region and on the continent, and therefore the ANC proudly supports this Budget Vote. [Applause.]
Vote agreed to (Democratic Alliance, Freedom Front, Federal Alliance and Independent African Movement dissenting).
Vote No 23 - Independent Complaints Directorate - put.
Declarations of vote:
Adv P S SWART: Chairperson, the DA supports this Vote. As an independent, both investigative and oversight body, the ICD plays an important, and unfortunately, a much-needed role in society.
Two years ago the Portfolio Committee on Safety and Security was informed by the ICD that, due to budgetary constraints, they could only function properly for the first eight months of the financial year. They did, however, undertake, despite Treasury’s lack of sufficient funding, to reorganise in such a way as to be able to fulfil their obligations. And that they did. At the last two budget briefings they indicated their successes.
This year, with an increase of 11,6%, not much more than inflation, they will also be toiling under an additional burden, as the closure of the SAPS anticorruption units is already resulting in them having to deal with an ever-increasing number of complaints of corruption against police members.
Our support for this Budget Vote is not an indication of satisfaction with the amounts allocated to them, but a tribute to the way they proactively manage their budget and are able to fulfil the very important function of ensuring that the police, front runners in the fight against crime, are not guilty themselves of crime.
Our congratulations to Advocate McKenzie and her team for work well done. [Interjections.]
Mr M E GEORGE: Comrade Chairperson, I hope you will save my minutes for when I respond later. We stand to support the budget of the Independent Complaints Directorate. Thank you. [Applause.]
Vote agreed to.
Vote No 24 - Justice and Constitutional Development - put.
Mrs S M CAMERER: Thank you, Chairperson. Even taking into account the positive developments, such as the largest increase in funding since 1994, some R747 million, the notoriously underresourced Justice Department - and this has gone on for years - is not coping with the burdens placed on it.
The DA cannot support the Vote, when ordinary members of the public experience the courts as painfully slow, inefficient and unfriendly to their needs. Let me briefly unpack a few of the problems. Firstly, the plight of victims is not being addressed. Withdrawal of cases because of poor performance by state prosecutors is no comfort to the victims of those crimes.
There is still no victims’ charter or victims compensation fund, despite two years of promises from the Department of Justice and although the Criminal Asset Recovery Account already holds R27 million in assets forfeited to the state, which is meant to assist victims of crime.
There is extremely low productivity in the courts, which, after all, is the core business of the department.The long awaiting-trial periods because of the very slow pace of cases through the courts, result in the clogging-up of prisons with some sixty thousand trial-awaiting prisoners.
The are persistently lower conviction rates in relation to rising crime rates, mainly because at least half of all cases recorded by the National Prosecuting Authority are withdrawn. Over half a million cases were withdrawn last year. We also experience an extreme shortage of personnel in the department. According to a new human resource audit of the department produced by the director-general’s own office, the department is underresourced, relatively underskilled and therefore ill-prepared to fulfil its mandate.
The DA sees insufficient progress in this Budget towards the goals of an efficient victim-friendly court system and we therefore cannot support this Vote. [Interjections.]
Mr S N SWART: Chairman, during the recent visit to Port Elizabeth by the joint justice and correctional services Committees, we were most impressed by the willingness of all officials to find solutions to prison overcrowding and court backlogs. The integrated justice system approach, as well as the pre-trial services project, will go a long way in reducing the number of trial-awaiting prisoners.
It is a pity, however, that these projects have been shelved in certain other provinces, following a cutback in donor funding. Our particular thanks to Mr Kevin Hustler and Business Against Crime for the success in these projects in the Eastern Cape.
The issue of maintenance, however, remains a severe problem, experienced by many in our constituencies. Maintenance is often the sole means of support for many single parents. It is estimated that there could be hundreds of thousands of fathers who do not pay maintenance.
In Mitchells Plain it is estimated that only 5 000 of the 50 000 men who have maintenance orders against them pay regularly. Notwithstanding the very laudable attempts by the department, we believe that there is still a long way to go in this regard.
A further very serious issue relates to the department’s deposit account. It is disgraceful that certain corrupt officials are robbing the public by pocketing millions of rands deposited for maintenance payments, bail money, fines and deceased estates. The fact that the accounts of many of the approximate 750 courts are in a state of chaos, and that the amount of money that has been misappropriated is, according to the chief financial officer, at present, unknown but significant, in his words, is that this is an issue of great concern.
The state will be held liable to make compensation for the losses that may run into many millions, even possibly hundreds of millions of rands. Although the department has made a lot of significant progress in this regard, the ACDP will unfortunately not be able to support this Budget Vote. I thank you. [Interjections.]
Ms T E MILLEN: Thank you, Chairperson. [Interjections.] The IAM supports the previous two speakers and their sentiment and would like to add: One thing that the Constitutional Court must do, is have a Constitutional review to allow the enabling of the death penalty to be reintroduced. [Interjections.]
It is absolutely essential for us to restore law and order in this mad situation that we have. And for those who say that the death penalty is not a deterrent, I would like to say: Has not having the death penalty been a deterrent? Definitely not. [Interjections.] Thank you. And I will unfortunately not support this Vote. [Interjections.]
The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! Order!
Ms F I CHOHAN-KHOTA: Chairperson, the criminal justice system faces many challenges, but we also see significant improvements every single day through the efforts of very dedicated people. Government has, with this Vote, increased the budget by almost R800 million, which gives the fight against crime a significant boost. We do not just put up posters in the streets.
By voting against this budget the DA displays unashamed disdain for the most vulnerable in our society namely the women and children and victims of crime. By voting against this budget the DA votes against the many hundreds of men and women who go to work every single day and who make the criminal justice system work. The ANC supports those dedicated South Africans. The ANC cares about victims of crime. The ANC therefore will unconditionally support this budget Vote. Thank you. [Applause.]
The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! Order! On what are you rising, hon member?
Mr N J GOGOTYA: I am rising on a point of order: could the Leader of the Opposition, the hon Tony Leon, could he please share with this House the secret as to why he looks so happy and gay this morning, when he is usually an angry young man? [Laughter.]
The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! Order! That is not a point of order, hon member. Order! Hon members, can I put the Vote? Order! Order! Hon members, order!
Mr K M ANDREW: Thank you Chair. Chair, that hon member, the hon Mr Gogotya, continually within this House takes points of order which he knows perfectly well are not points of order; are in fact buffoonery and have nothing to do with the proceedings. I would like to ask you, Chair, with respect, what the Chairs are going to do about members who continually, during the course of sessions, take points of order which they know very well are not points of order? [Interjections.]
The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Hon Andrew … order! Hon member, my response to the hon Gogotya was that that was not a point of order and I ruled it out. So, it is not a point of order and I would appeal to members not to abuse points of order to raise issues that are spurious. Order!
Vote agreed to (Democratic Alliance, African Christian Democratic Party, IAM and FA dissenting).
Vote No 25 - Safety and Security - put.
Declarations of vote: Mr D H M GIBSON: Chairperson, the hon Minister appears to be out. I hope he is out catching criminals. He won’t be surprised when I say that the DA cannot support his policy or this Vote. South Africa has a weak criminal justice system. What we need is a strong and effective system. Given our high crime rate, we need a criminal justice system that works. It will only be seen to work when the majority of criminals are arrested, tried in a fair trial and, if convicted, then subjected to punishment which society regards as appropriate. The punishment must fit the crime.
Everywhere I go in South Africa I find that people have little confidence in our criminal justice system. People are desperate about the high levels of crime. Some are now resorting to vigilante action and even to necklacing. There is only one reason for that: a belief that the police will not or cannot act. South Africa can’t afford to go back along that road.
Hiding the crime statistics from the people does not help. Our people are not fools and they do not believe that you have crime under control. We say that the way to get it under control is to have 150 000 policemen on the streets where we live. [Interjections.] Every police station must be fully manned with fully trained and fully equipped policemen. We can then hold them to agreed service standards, reward those who deserve rewarding and punish those who deserve to be punished.
The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! Hon Gibson, please take your seat.
Prof B TUROK: Chairperson, on a point of order: There is a rule in our Rules which is against repetition. We have heard this comment many many times. [Interjections.] I ask you to rule it out. [Interjections]
The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! Hon member, that’s not a point of order.
Mr M J ELLIS: Chairperson, on point of order: The hon Andrew has just asked you to make some kind of ruling or to do something about these frivolous points of order that Mr Gogotya is guilty of and so is Mr Turok. [Interjections.] We urge you, sir, to do something about it. [Interjections.]
The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order, Hon Ellis! Please continue, Mr Gibson.
Mr D H M GIBSON: Chairperson, the DA, whether Prof Turok likes it or not, will continue telling the people of South Africa that you don’t have crime under control and that until you start applying decent and proper policies you will not get crime under control. [Interjections.] Even if you are sick of hearing it, the people outside are not sick of hearing it because they agree with us. [Interjections.] Everywhere I go they say that the ANC is not doing its stuff in fighting crime. [Interjections.] They beg us to do something to help rid this country of this scourge. [Interjections.] Mr Turok might not like it and the Minister, certainly, doesn’t like it and the rest of the ANC members don’t like it but South Africa doesn’t like crime. [Interjections.] [Time expired.] The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! Hon members, can I have some order in the House. I cannot recognise the Deputy Chief Whip until I have order in the House.
The DEPUTY CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Chair, just on a point of information: The Minister of Safety and Security is in fact in the NCOP where he is busy with a debate there.
The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Thank you, Deputy Chief Whip. Hon members, that was a very noisy session. We do encourage a lively debate and are happy with it, but I think that it was a lot more than what should have been witnessed there.
Mrs R M SOUTHGATE: Mr Chairman, the ACDP will not support this Budget Vote as it will not result in the reduction of high crime levels, ensure higher conviction rates or result in a better quality of life for our communities. The ACDP urges Government to make crime eradication their priority in practice and not just on paper, so that the law-abiding taxpayers will get value for their money. The confusion brought by section-49 legislation is unacceptable and the budget does not address the increased need for education and training or give an acknowledgement to the gravity of the situation.
The statistics released by the Independent Complaints Directorate that show that police corruption had increased by more than 100% in a year are worrying. Throwing more money at a corrupt police service without dealing harshly with the offenders will result in greater amounts of squandered taxpayers’ money.
Government must stop talking about stabilising crime in the so-called hotspots and start eradicating crime from all our communities. Our streets must be made safer for all South African citizens. It is the Government and not the community that must take responsibility for acting against the criminal element, or they will bear the consequences of their failure do so at the election poll. I thank you.
Mnr P J GROENEWALD: Agb Voorsitter, die agb Adjunkpresident het by ‘n geleentheid gesê, en hy het ook hier in dié Huis gesê, dat dit misdadigers is wat misbruik maak van die Grondwet van Suid-Afrika, totdat hulle in die moeilikheid is. Dan beroep hulle hul op die goeie dinge van die Grondwet. Die werklikheid is: As die adjunkpresident van die land alreeds so ver gaan om sulke woorde te uiter, dan gee dit eintlik ‘n aanduiding van die omvang van misdaad in Suid-Afrika.
Die agb Minister van Veiligheid en Sekuriteit se werk is om te verseker dat misdaad afneem in Suid-Afrika. Die agb Minister kom elke keer en dan sê hy dat misdaad afneem. As ons met die mense daar buite praat, dan sê hulle nie net dat misdaad toeneem nie, maar dat hulle misdaad beleef. As ‘n ondersoek bevind dat 80% van motorkapings in ‘n mens se oprit plaasvind, dan is dit ‘n bose dag in ons land. Ons kan maar die syfers gaan vergelyk.
Ek wil ook kom by plaasmoorde. Ek het namens die VF ‘n jaar gelede vir die agb Minister ‘n vraag gevra en hy het ‘n jaar gelede al gesê dat die oorsaak en die motiewe vir plaasmoorde bekend is. Maar die agb Minister wag meer as ‘n jaar om daardie motiewe en oorsake bekend te maak. Die VF vra: Waarom? Die agb Minister het gesê daar is bevind dat dit gewone misdadigheid is en roof is die motief daarvoor. Die VF kan dit nie aanvaar nie. Ons wag vir die verslag, dan sal ons behoorlik daarop reageer, maar ek sê vandag vir u dat wat die VF betref, is dit ‘n misleiding van die mense van Suid-Afrika oor plaasmoorde en dit kan nie toegelaat word. Die VF sal nie die begrotingspos ondersteun nie. [Tyd verstreke.] (Translation of Afrikaans speech follows.)
[Mr P J GROENEWALD: Hon Chairperson, the hon Deputy President said on one occasion, and has also said here in this House, that criminals misuse the Constitution of South Africa, until they are in trouble. They then invoke the good things in the Constitution. The reality is: If the Deputy President of the country is already going so far as to say such things, it actually gives an indication of the extent of crime in South Africa. The job of the hon Minister for Safety and Security is to ensure that crime decreases in South Africa. The hon the Minister comes and says that crime is decreasing every time. If we talk to the people out there, they say that not only is crime increasing, but they are experiencing crime. When an investigation finds that 80% of car hijackings take place in one’s driveway, it is a dark day in our country. We can compare the figures.
I also want to refer to farm murders. A year ago I asked the Minister a question on behalf of the FF and a year ago already he said that the cause and the motives for farm murders were known. But the hon Minister waited for more than a year to make those motives and causes known. The FF asks: Why? The hon Minister said that it was found that this is common criminality and that theft is the motive for it. The FF cannot accept this. We are waiting for the report and we will then respond to it properly, but I will tell you today that as far as the FF is concerned, the people of South Africa are being misled with regard to farm murders and it cannot be allowed. The FF will not support the Vote. [Time expired.]]
Ms T E MILLEN: Chairperson, the IAM [Interjections.] cannot support this Vote and, by the way, to call it Safety and Security is probably one of the biggest misnomers of any Ministry. It should be the Ministry of danger and insecurity because that is what we are all suffering from in this country. So, I will not support this Vote and I will be one of those calling for a division. Thank you.
Mr C AUCAMP: Hon Chairperson, the day the Minister of Safety and Security gets excited if he can say that the statistics of crime have stabilised, then the writing will be on the wall.
Misdaadstatistiek in Suid-Afrika wys dat ons in sekere gevalle die grootste
misdaadsyfer ter wêreld het. Ons vra steeds die vraag hoekom die Minister
die gegewens nie wil bekend maak nie. [Tussenwerpsels.] Daar is te veel
hit and run crackdowns'' en te minBobby on the beat’’. En nou kan ek aan
u voorspel dat die ANC gaan sê: Ons is teen die veiligheidsmagte, ons is
teen ons polisiemanne; maar ek wil vir u noem dat ons hierdie beleid nie
kan ondersteun nie. Die kommissaris het gesê dat plaasmoorde afneem, maar
gee nie vir ons die statistiese gegewens nie. Hy wil hê ons moet hom glo,
sonder ‘n enkele syfer. Dis nie wat ons op die veld ervaar nie. Die
Nasionale Aksie kan hierdie begrotingspos ongelukkig nie ondersteun nie.
(Translation of Afrikaans paragraph follows.)
[Crime statistics in South Africa show that we, in certain instances, have
the highest crime rate in the world. We still ask the question why the
Minister does not want to publish the data. [Interjections.] There are too
many hit and run crackdowns'' and too fewBobbies on the beat’’. And
now I can predict to you that the ANC will say ``We are against the safety
forces, we are against our police force’’, but I want to say that we cannot
support this policy. The commissioner said that farm murders are on the
decrease, but he does not give us the statistical data. He wants us to
believe him without a single figure. That is not what we experience on the
ground. The National Action can unfortunately not support this Budget
Vote.]
Mr M E GEORGE: Comrade Chairperson, we support the budget. The 11% increase, we believe, will go a long way in the fight against crime.
The fight against crime is one of the most challenging aspects of our country. Although we said previously that we have managed to turn the tide against crime, we want to emphasise the fact that there is still a lot to be done, as the level of crime still remains unacceptably high. I must quickly add that the situation is under control. Crime is continuously being stabilised. There is no crisis in the country. [Interjections.] There is no chaotic situation, as others would like us to believe. The police are doing their work and are arresting criminals.
We proudly acknowledge that the more efficient, co-ordinated interdepartmental approach to crime prevention and combating has meant more successes in stabilising crime. Successes include the 16 days of activism on nonviolence against women and children in 2002 by the JPCS cluster. Operations Tsipa, Sethunya and the recent Operation Tswikila continue to succeed in stabilising organised crime, confiscating stolen vehicles and destroying redundant and illegal firearms. Despite a high rate of crime syndicates and gangsters, the murder rate continues to go down as well. From the year 2000 to 2003 these operations led to more than half a million arrests, more than 15 000 confiscation of stolen vehicles and the destruction of more than 100 000 stolen and redundant firearms.
I appeal - and I will make this appeal every day, especially to the DA - that we must unite against crime instead of using it for electioneering. Nobody is going to believe you. I heard Mr Gibson saying some people believe him. I don’t know who are the people that he was talking about but I know that you will see it next year that the people do not believe you. [Applause.] [Time expired.]
Division demanded.
The House divided:
AYES - 249: Abrahams, T; Abram, S; Ainslie, A R; Arendse, J D; Asmal, A K; Bakker, D M; Balfour, B M N; Baloyi, M R; Baloyi, S F; Bapela, O; Benjamin, J; Beukman, F; Bhengu, F; Biyela, B P; Bloem, D V; Bogopane, H I; Booi, M S; Botha, N G W; Buthelezi, M G; Cachalia, I M; Chalmers, J; Chiba, L; Chikane, M M; Chohan-Khota, F I; Cindi, N V; Cwele, S C; Davies, R H; De Lille, P; Diale, L N; Didiza, A T; Dithebe, S L; Dlali, D M; Dlamini, B O; Douglas, B M; Du Toit, D C; Duma, N M; Durand, J; Dyani, M M Z; Erwin, A; Ferreira, E T; Fihla, N B; Fraser-Moleketi, G J; Frolick, C T; Geldenhuys, B L; George, M E; Gerber, P A; Gillwald, C E; Gogotya, N J; Goniwe, M T; Goosen, A D; Gous, S J; Greyling, C H F; Gumede, D M; Gxowa, N B; Hanekom, D A; Hendrickse, P A C; Herandien, C B; Hlaneki, C J; Hlengwa, M W; Hogan, B A; Jassat, E E; Jeebodh, T; Joemat, R R; Jordan, Z P; Kannemeyer, B W; Kasrils, R; Kati, J Z; Kgarimetsa, J J; Kgauwe, Q J; Kgwele, L G; Komphela, B M; Koornhof, G W; Kota, Z A; Kotwal, Z; Landers, L T; Lekgoro, M K; Lekota, M G P; Lobe, M C; Lockey, D; Louw, J T; Louw, S K; Lucas, E J; Ludwabe, C I; Luthuli, A N; Mabandla, B S; Mabe, L L; Mabena, D C; Mabuyakhulu, V D; Magashule, E S; Magazi, M N; Magubane, N E; Magwanishe, G B; Mahomed, F; Maimane, D S; Makasi, X C; Malahlela, M J; Maloney, L; Malumise, M M; Manie, M S; Manuel, T A; Mapisa-Nqakula, N N; Mars, I; Martins, B A D; Masala, M M; Maseka, J T; Maserumule, F T; Mashimbye, J N; Masithela, N H; Masutha, M T; Mathibela, N F; Matlanyane, H F; Matsepe-Casaburri, I F; Matthews, V J G; Maunye, M M; Mayatula, S M; Maziya, M A; Mbadi, L M; Mbombo, N D; Mbuyazi, L R; Mdladlana, M M S; Mentor, M P; Mfundisi, I S; Mkono, D G; Mlangeni, A; Mngomezulu, G P; Mnguni, B A; Mnumzana, S K; Moatshe, M S; Modise, T R; Modisenyane, L J; Moeketse, K M; Mofokeng, T R; Mogoba, M S; Mohamed, I J; Mohlala, R J B; Mokoena, A D; Molebatsi, M A; Moloi, J; Moloto, K A; Montsitsi, S D; Moonsamy, K; Moosa, M V; Morobi, D M; Moropa, R M; Morutoa, M R; Mothoagae, P K; Motubatse-Hounkpatin, S D; Mpahlwa, M B; Mpaka, H M; Mpontshane, A M; Mshudulu, S A; Mthembu, B; Mthethwa, E N; Mtsweni, N S; Mudau, N W; Mufamadi, F S; Mzondeki, M J G; Nair, B; Nash, J H; Ndou, R S; Ndzanga, R A; Nefolovhodwe, P J; Nel, A C; Nene, N M; Newhoudt-Druchen, W S; Ngaleka, E; Ngcengwane, N D; Ngcobo, N; Ngculu, L V J; Ngema, M V; Ngubeni, J M; Nhlengethwa, D G; Niemann, J J; Njobe, M A A; Nqodi, S B; Ntombela, S H; Ntshulana-Bhengu, N R; Ntuli, B M; Ntuli, J T; Ntuli, S B; Nxumalo, S N; Olckers, M E; Olifant, D A A; Oliphant, G G; Oosthuizen, G C; Pahad, A G H; Pahad, E G; Phadagi, M G; Phala, M J; Phohlela, S; Pieterse, R D; Pillay, R; Radebe, B A; Radebe, J T; Rajbally, S; Ramakaba-Lesiea, M M; Ramgobin, M; Ramotsamai, C M P; Rasmeni, S M; Reid, L R R; Rhoda, R T; Ripinga, S S; Robertsen, M O; Roopnarain, U; Rwexana, S P; Saloojee, E (Cassim); Schippers, J; Schneeman, G D; Schoeman, E A; Schoeman, R S; Seeco, M A; September, C C; September, R K; Shabalala, T; Shabangu, S; Sibande, M P; Sigcau, S N; Sigwela, E M; Sikakane, M R; Sisulu, L N; Sithole, D J; Skhosana, W M; Skweyiya, Z S T; Smith, P F; Smith, V G; Solo, B M; Soloman, G; Sonjica, B P; Sosibo, J E; Sotyu, M M; Tarr, M A; Tinto, B; Tolo, L J; Tshabalala- Msimang, M E; Tshwete, P; Turok, B; Twala, N M; Vadi, I; Van der Merwe, A S; Van Jaarsveld, A Z A; Van Wyk, A; Van Wyk, A; Van Wyk, J F; Van den Heever, R P Z; Van der Merwe, S C; Vezi, T E; Woods, G G; Zita, L; Zondo, R P.
NOES - 45: Andrew, K M; Aucamp, C; Bell, B G; Blaas, A; Blanché, S; Borman, G; Camerer, S; Da Camara, M L; Doman, W; Eglin, C W; Ellis, M J; Farrow, S B; Gibson, D H M; Gore, V C; Grobler, G A J; Groenewald, P J; Kalyan, S; Koornhof, N J; Le Roux, W; Lee, T D; Leon, A J; Lowe, C M; Maluleke, D K; McIntosh, G B D; Millen, T E; Moorcroft, E K; Mulder, C P; Mulder, P W A; Nel, A H; Ntuli, R S; Opperman, S E; Rabie, P; Redcliffe, C R; Schalkwyk, P; Semple, J A; Seremane, J; Smuts, M; Southgate, R M; Steele, M H; Swart, P S; Swart, S N; Taljaard, R; Theron, J L; Van Deventer, F; Waters, M.
Vote No 25 accordingly agreed to. Vote No 26- Agriculture- put.
Declarations of vote:
Mr S B FARROW: Hon Chairperson, the DA will support both this Vote and Vote
- According to the strategic plan of South African agriculture, primary agriculture accounts for 4,5% of the GDP, whilst the agro-food complexes account for another 9%. There are approximately 50 000 large commercial farmers who employ about a million workers or 11% of the total formal employment in South Africa.
In effect, commercial farms provide livelihoods and housing for approximately 6 million family members. In addition to these farmers, there are also 240 000 small farmers, who also provide more than a million livelihoods for their family members and employment to another 500 000 people. These small farmers supply locally and regional markets where large numbers of informal traders make a living.
Furthermore, there are an estimated 3 million farmers in communal areas who produce food, primarily to meet their families’ needs. It is therefore no wonder that about 40% of the country’s total population is primarily dependent on agriculture and related industries. It is therefore critical that the Department of Agriculture continues to support and grow the agricultural sector, if we are to remain self-sufficient in food and fibre whilst generating marketable surpluses to meet both regional and export demands.
Key to success is the need for agricultural research, effective and efficient support and delivery services, safety and security on our farms and land-tenure reform, particularly for those new entrants coming into the agricultural sector. The Department needs to reprioritise its budgets to meet these challenges because we do not need to end up like Zimbabwe.
Adequate funds must be made available for agriculture and land purchases, as was demonstrated by the protest outside Parliament today. The 2003 Budget has yet to take the bull by the horns in implementing the strategic plans, vision and for … [Time expired.]
Mong N H MASITHELA: Motsamaisi wa mosebetsi. Ntate Farrow ka mokgwa oo a buileng ka teng, ha ho na kamoo mokgatlo wa ANC o ke keng wa dumellana le yena. Mokgatlo wa ANC ha o na boikitlaetso ba ho hanana le tlhahiso ena e hlahisitsweng kajeno. Ditekanyetso tsena tsa kajeno, di bontsha hore mokgatlo wa ANC o ikemiseditse ka matsapa ohle ho etsa bonnete ba hore o fedisa boqitolo, tlala le bofuma. Ke kahoo re reng bohle ba buileng, le bohle ba ikamahanyang le ditekanyetso tsena, ba bontsha hore tlala e nyele.
Ke ka motsotso ona re bontshang baahi ba Aforika Borwa ka bophara, re kopang le bana ba sokang ba ikopela ditjhelete le ditshebediso tsa temo, hore ba etse jwalo hobane, `kwekwe ya morao e tloha le sepolo’. Mmuso ona wa ANC o hlokometse hore batho ba batsho ha ba na tjhelete. Ke kahoo o reng bohle ba batlang ho ba le dipolasi, ele batho ba batsho, ba hle ba ipotlakele ba ikopanye le Lefapha la tsa Temo. Hobane re re moketa ho tsoswa o itekang. Modulaletulo, hobane tsena tse builweng mona ha ho na mokgatlo o hananang le tsona, e re ke behe taba tsa ka mohatla kgwiti, hobane kgomo ha e nye bolokwe kaofela. Mokgatlo wa ANC o tsamaisana le ditekanyetso tsena. Ke a leboha. (Translation of Sesotho speech follows.)
[Mr N H MASITHELA: Chairperson, there is no way that the ANC cannot agree with Mr Farrow, because of the way he spoke. The ANC does not have the will to disagree with this input. Today’s budget shows that the ANC is determined to do away with dishonesty, starvation and poverty. That is why we say that everybody who has spoken here and everybody who agrees with this budget is showing that starvation will be done away with.
Right now we are out to show the citizens of South Africa. We also urge those who have not yet asked for funds and agricultural instruments to do so, because he who wastes time will be left behind. The ANC Government has realised that black people do not have money. That is why the Government says that everybody who is black and wants to own a farm should hurry up and get in touch with the Department of Agriculture, because only those who make an effort will be helped.
Chairperson, as there is no party that disagrees with what has been said here, let me be very brief as one can never say it all. The ANC supports this budget. Thank you.]
Vote agreed to.
Vote No 27 - Communications - put.
Declarations of vote:
Ms M SMUTS: Madam Speaker, this is the first year that I can remember that we have not called for a division on Communications. We will simply object because the hon Minister has announced a policy overhaul in line with the DA’s proposals on technological neutrality and the separate regulation of transmission and content in the age of convergance. If we helped to force the DOC’s hand, then that is some reward for the long hours of work we put into a policy field which so fascinates us. However, the policy overhaul has to be fundamental. It must not only benefit the state-run companies.
Gardner Data Quest has made an interesting assertion about South Africa. It says that we are Western in our ways, but Eastern in our aim. We are caught in a cultural warp. Like China, Gardner argues, our Government has, until now, addressed teledensity through social legislation, and I quote:
A firm governmental grip on stakeholdership, in what it considers its infrastructure, allowing only tightly controlled entry by private investment.
The description, in my view, is devastatingly apt. The point, however, is that South Africa’s consumers have spoken and expressed their preferences. They go for the Western model. They are South Africa’s voters too. At the moment, we have a Government which still wants to control the industry, but the private sector is better at running it. It is time for the Government to leave it to the experts. We look forward to the policy conferences designated for July and we also look forward to appropriate policy change.
Mr M K LEKGORO: Madam Speaker, for those of us whose life experiences have been to communicate with our families, who include uncles and cousins in rural areas through letter writing only, the roll-out of telephones to these areas has brought much-needed relief. Our loved ones are now so far, but yet so near. Within seconds one is able to determine how they are, who is not feeling well, who has passed away and who is getting married.
If one has not gone through the pain of exchanging this information only through letter writing, one is likely to take this great change in our lives for granted. To us the tide has turned for a better life. Once more, Telkom’s maiden results after listing have vindicated the ANC- led Government who believes that managed liberalisation of state assets is a sound approach, as opposed to the populist approach of the opposition of wholesale privatisation. The listing of Telkom affords previously disadvantaged communities the opportunity to partake in the telecommunication sector.
Lastly, we are sure that the South African Post Office is on its way to sound financial and human resource management. Their breakthrough in corruption in the institution is a good account in this regard. From a subsidy of more than R600 million, it has now halved it to R300 million. It is our hope that as they improve, the remaining deficit will disappear. We support Vote no 27. [Applause.]
Vote agreed to (Democratic Alliance and African Christian Democratic Party dissenting).
Vote No 28 - Environmental Affairs and Tourism - put and agreed to.
Vote No 29 - Housing - put and agreed to (African Christian Democratic Party dissenting). Vote No 30 - Land Affairs - put and agreed to (National Action dissenting).
Vote No 31 - Minerals and Energy - put and agreed to.
Vote No 32 - Trade and Industry - put.
Declaration of vote:
Mr C M LOWE: Madam Deputy Speaker, the DA will not support this Vote. The Department of Trade and Industry should be the engine room for economic growth and development policies and initiatives in South Africa. It should be the driving force behind the Government with a bold vision and radical plan to stimulate growth and create jobs that will see South Africans everywhere enjoying a rising standard of living and an expanding economy.
Instead, after ten years of ANC Incorporated, we have over one million jobs lost and 40% of our people unemployed; instead of broad-based black economic empowerment that achieves what its title implies, we have allegations and evidence of cronyism, nepotism and shady oil deals; instead of creating new wealth and rapidly expanding the economic path to include those left behind by apartheid, we see the transfer of existing infrastructure and capital to a well-connected elite that leaves ordinary black South Africans just as marginalised and disadvantaged as ever they were.
The DTI, under the policies of the ANC Inc, has got it all wrong. South Africa cannot afford political correctness, let alone nepotism or cronyism, wabenzi-opportunism at the expense of competence and efficiency and fairness. If that happens, South Africans everywhere will pay the price and the jobless queues will simply grow longer.
Ms T E MILLEN: Madam Deputy Speaker, the greatest concern of the IAM is the proliferation of gambling, which falls under this department’s Vote, and, in particular, the recent installation of the LPOs or low-pay-out operations in rural areas. The sight of a lady on television last night operating one of these machines, saying that she hoped to win `maybe R40, so that she could buy some food’, is a shocking indictment on the placement of these machines among the most vulnerable and impoverished in our country. Similar commendable statements decrying the situation were expressed by the hon Minister of Social Development on the same programme. Thank you, hon Minister.
I opposed gambling with regard particularly to its social effects on society while an IFP MPP in KwaZulu-Natal, much to the chagrin of the premier during this debate in 2001. The IAM still opposes gambling for the same reasons and will not be supporting this Vote for that reason alone.
Dr R H DAVIES: Madam Deputy Speaker, during the Budget Vote debate on trade and industry we were able to report to the House that there was steady progress in the DTI’s stewardship of the R2,5 billion entrusted to it by the House; there has been a substantial reduction in underspending to the extent that it is no longer a significant problem for this department; there is a greater alignment of budgetary priorities to organisational categories in the department and significant progress in ensuring that measurable indicators, related to the priorities of promoting economic growth and development, empowerment and equity, are actually achieved.
Mr Lowe raised a number of spurious points and I don’t think that there is any basis on which Mr Lowe’s charges can be sustained. There is no indication that there is any condoning of cronyism and nepotism in the department. Where instances are backed up by solid evidence, they are normally investigated and investigated to significant effect.
What Mr Lowe is doing is that he is objecting, he should note, to an increased allocation which is equivalent to 52% per annum increase since 1999 to promote black economic empowerment, which he claims to support. He is also objecting to programmes which are projected to leverage in R14,5 billion worth of investment for small, medium and microenterprise development and for strategic investments which are capable of creating 32 000 new jobs and sustaining 88 000 jobs.
Ms Millen of the IAM appears to be ignorant of the fact that the ANC/NNP- coalition government in the Western Cape is taking a strong stand against the roll-out of the limited-pay-up machines, which has the full support of the Portfolio Committee on Trade and Industry, and this I think is an indication of the pro-poor stance which the ANC/NNP-coalition government in the Western Cape is taking. The ANC will, of course, support Budget Vote
- [Applause.]
Vote agreed to (Democratic Alliance and Independent African Movement dissenting).
Vote No 33 - Transport - put.
Declarations of vote: Mr S B FARROW: Madam Deputy Speaker, the acting Minister of Transport doesn’t deserve this. The Department of Transport against falls short of meeting its priority. Consistent underfunding and improper use of funding mechanisms through the fuel levy has resulted in the backlog of R63 billion in our road maintenance programmes alone.
The department has finally recognised the problem with the Government’s road funding policies. In its latest draft policy on the funding of road networks it admits that while the fuel levy is intended to fund the maintenance of our roads, it has been used increasingly by the Government to finance other needs like health and education.
The DA has consistently called for the fuel levy maintenance fund to be ringfenced and allocated proportionally to provinces on a conditional basis. The lack of adequate funding has forced SANRA to go for the unpopular route of tolling, and in the eyes of many motorists this amounts to double taxation.
Our railway infrastructure and rolling stock suffers from a similar backlog that impacts on safety. The taxi industry, our biggest public transporter, is still suffering from lack of clear direction as to how it will be subsidised and the recap scheme has not yet been rolled out. Meanwhile the average age of the fleet and the unroadworthiness of some vehicles have contributed to poor levels of service and safety.
Congestions, inefficiencies and lack of proper maintenance of our ports has resulted in delays in most of our ports and the lost of credibility by shipping lines.
The Arrive Alive campaign funding is in jeopardy with a technically insolvent RAF, unable to provide monetary support and unable to meet its strategic objectives. Coupled with this is a major shortfall in funds to implement the Road Traffic Management Corporation, which forms part of vital legislation to unite all national, provincial and local road safety authorities to eliminate the current fragmentation and address the shortfalls of over 8 000 police in our country.
The department’s ability to manage and deliver on a seemless and efficient aviation, maritime and road service fall short of strategic objects and the budget does little to integrate and financially support these services. The DA therefore has no alternative but to object to this budget, and I hope the Minister of Finance takes note of this. This is the fourth time that I have asked him to put more money in the transport Vote. [Applause.]
Mr G D SCHNEEMANN: Madam Deputy Speaker, the transport budget provides for increased spending for the maintenance and development of infrastructure and for the provision of affordable public transport. The ANC welcomes the department’s focus on the provision of safe and affordable public transport to those in our country with the greatest need, namely the poorest of the poor. In particular, this includes funding for the refurbishment of railcoaches and the continued upgrading and expansion of our road network, with specific focus on the upgrading of rural roads.
The ANC welcomes and applauds the work being undertaken by the South African Maritime Safety Authority amongst the fishing community, equipping them with much-needed safety training for when they are out at sea. We in the ANC look forward to the rolling out of the Taxi Recapitalisation Programme and the implementation of the roads traffic operations policy.
I just want to say to Mr Farrow: you obviously don’t sit in the same portfolio committee that I do. Because if you sat there and listened you would hear about the increase in funding that has taken place in the department.
By objecting to this vote the DA says it does not care about the poorest of the poor … [Interjections.] … and wish them to remain without access to affordable, safe and reliable transport. The ANC supports this Budget Vote. Thank you. [Applause.]
Vote agreed to (Democratic Alliance and Independent African Movement dissenting).
Vote 34 - Water Affairs and Forestry - put and agreed to.
Question put: That the Schedule be agreed to.
Schedule agreed to.
NOMINATION OF MR B NAIR
(Draft Resolution)
The DEPUTY CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Madam Deputy Speaker, I move without notice: That the House elects Mr Billy Nair to preside during today’s sitting of the House when requested to do so by a presiding officer.
Agreed to.
APPROPRIATION BILL
(Second Reading debate)
Mr N M NENE: Thank you, Deputy Speaker and hon members, I would also like to take this opportunity to congratulate comrade Billy on his appointment to the Chair. When the majority of the people of South Africa voted the ANC into power, it was mainly because of our track record of standing our ground, no matter what the challenges were. One of the biggest challenges we faced was an ailing economy that we inherited from the apartheid regime. A huge budget deficit, rising unemployment, double-digit inflation, skewed distribution of income and land; and also the total exclusion of the vast majority of our people from the economy and a decent social life.
The government of the people is addressing all these problems. We therefore have serious steady economic growth, a reduced budget deficit, inflation is under control and the majority of our people are beginning to share in the country’s wealth.
Over the past nine years the ANC Government has laid a solid foundation upon which a better life for all has steadily been realised. During the Budget Votes we have heard how much the departments have done to improve the lives of our people, following the programmes the ANC has developed and the tough choices we have had to make in order to address the challenges that I have alluded to.
Our economic policies have given us the platform and leverage to be where we are today. Today we are in a position that allows us to give effect to the developmental programme through increased spending in the areas that matter most to be able to push back the frontiers of poverty. The expansion of the Public Works programme, increased spending on health, and education with a particular emphasis on primary health and improving adult illiteracy and skills development are indicative of a caring ANC Government.
The budget process has undergone tremendous transformation itself. With the introduction of the Medium-Term Expenditure Framework, the new budgeting format, including the introduction of the estimates of expenditure that require departments to outline their measurable objectives, and the estimates of national expenditure and also the establishment of the joint budget committee, that monitors expenditure on a regular basis, ensures compliance with the Public Finance Management Act. This has placed us in a position that allows Government and Parliament to interact more meaningfully with the Budget.
The joint budget committee’s first report has since been tabled in Parliament last week and we are going to engage in a very robust debate that will see our recommendations being implemented. These are all steps taken in the name of delivery of services to our people to improve their lives and push back the frontiers of poverty.
The DA has clearly demonstrated their opposition to transformation by voting against spending money on health, spending money on education, provincial and local government, sports and recreation, safety and security and two other Votes which are in the Presidency. Their argument on all the mentioned Budget Votes is nothing more than the same argument that was advanced by the previous government and caused the problems we are addressing.
So, listening to them will take us back to where we come from and that we have worked so hard to break away from. When the ANC fights for a better life, the DA fights back. When the ANC wants every child to get an education, the DA fights back. When the ANC appropriates money for health for all South Africans, the DA fights back. When the ANC allocates money to provinces and local government for the provision of free basic services, the DA fights back. When the ANC allocates money to safety and security to employ and train a realistic number of personnel, the DA fights back with a call for 150 000 untrained and ill-equipped police on the streets. The same applies to sports and recreation. For as long as the DA exists as custodians of apartheid and the ``swart gevaar’’ [Black danger.], our people will never be free.
In supporting this Appropriation Bill, the ANC continues to lead the war against poverty and deprivation and I assure our people that we will never give up. We owe it to the masses of this country that continue to support us. I thank you, Chairperson. Ms R TALJAARD: Thank you, Chairperson, as we debate the Appropriation Bill today it is clear that South Africa confronts three key challenges: Unemployment in excess of 30%, alarming levels of crime, the devastating economic, social and human consequences of the HIV/Aids tragedy unfolding in every corner of South Africa every day. While this Budget has marketed itself under the slogan of ``the right thing to do’’, there are a number of areas in which we continue to do the wrong thing.
The naysayers would continue to berate those who say South Africa’s labour market inflexibility continues to be an aggravating factor in hampering job creation. However, even in the former doyens of corporatism, such as Germany and the highly protected labour markets of that country, they have had to revise their position in the context of sluggish growth, persistent unemployment and the strictures of the growth and stability pact.
German Chancellor, Gerhard Schroder, had to take in very difficult political times for his Social Democratic Party some clear, courageous and bold steps to alleviate the current problems in the labour market in Germany and institute long-overdue structural reform.
Only in South Africa can a Growth and Development Summit, that excludes the item of labour market flexibility completely from the agenda, be regarded as a success. This is not an argument about rolling back workers’ rights in toto. It is about being in touch with reality and making pragmatic policy choices that reflect that reality, not policy choices that reflect artificial political marriages of convenience on the eve of the 2004 election.
In respect of the fight against crime and HIV/Aids, it is clear that Government has its priorities inverted. Any government that can afford to purchase additional maritime helicopters and increase the already costly bill of the strategic defence procurement, with arrogant disregard for any accountability for the controversial decisions taken in the flawed procurement process, itself has its priorities inverted.
Any government willing to incur an addition R212 million foreign loan liability from Societe Generale for a Corvette combat suite that is touted to be a mere subcontractor in the budget review, clearly has its priorities inverted. It is a government with very strange priorities indeed. It is a government that needs to be reminded that the wars against crime, poverty, joblessness and HIV can never be fought or won decisively and convincingly with Corvettes, Hawks, Gripen, submarines or light-utility helicopters.
When the Minister of Finance tabled the Budget in this House in February, it was rightly criticised for falling short in announcing the much-awaited costing for an HIV/Aids National Treatment Roll-out Plan. A mere R3,3 billion was allocated in the Budget to this end over the MTF period.
To answer the criticism, the Minister and officials were quick to point out that the comprehensive costing study would be released in April. When the study was released it was clear that National Treasury had given the plan a cautious thumbs up. As the Director-General of Finance told the finance committee during its deliberations on the strategic plan of the National Treasury, Cabinet will now deliberate on this costing plan.
We must ask, as we adopt this Budget today: What has happened to the HIV/Aids costing plan thus far? Will it dwell in the labyrinths of Cabinet obfuscation, never to be seen or heard of again? The Minister of Finance and the National Treasury have a particular and specific duty to the people of South Africa to spearhead the affordability study for a national HIV/Aids antiretroviral treatment roll-out through this Cabinet. They control the purse strings and they must lobby for the affordability study, even if Dr No or any higher authority may wish to obfuscate any further or say, no.
Not only is Government’s credibility on this matter yet again at stake but its compliance with an order of the Constitutional Court may very well be in doubt as well. While there is such a thing as collective Cabinet responsibility, Minister Manuel, in this regard a very special responsibilty does rest on your shoulders to act as an advocate for this affordability plan. I thank you.
Dr G G WOODS: Thank you, Chairperson. [Interjections.] Thanks, Minister, I thought you were getting at me. Our approach is not going to be to get into the specifics we engaged at the time the 2003 Budget came out, but rather to reflect back on the debates on the various Votes that have gone through this House in recent weeks. I think having supported the spending framework which accompanied the 2003 Budget, we have looked forward to the Ministers presenting their budgets to the House. I think in this situation we would like to acknowledge that Ministers have in general this year shown increased purpose and focus. We can attribute this largely to the new formalised strategic planning which has taken place in the departments, and also the fact that we are now looking towards issues such as measurable objectives, as were given birth to through the PFMA.
But it is in this regard important for us to restate certain misgivings regarding the insufficiency of particular tools and expertise necessary to fully achieve the Budget intentions which the members of the Executive have expressed over the course of these Votes. And, firstly, on the issue of tools again, I think of the yet-to-be-introduced performance budgeting system, which the PFMA intends as the means through which to achieve improved value-for-money spending; and on the expertise side, of the serious shortage of levels of financial management ability and knowledge of course necessary to meet the high aims of the PFMA. And here again we must urge the Ministers of Finance and Public Service and Administration to keep up their efforts in these areas of concern.
I would like to take the unusual step of reflecting on Parliament’s performance in the debates that have preceded today’s event. And hereto I think the quality of debate of members has shown too that we also suffered from the lack of tools. I think the oversight measures, which are still going to introduce the performance budgeting system of the PFMA, will offer us some in the time to come. Another issue was the lack of participation in the Budget formulation process and the long-outstanding Money Bills amendment powers, which the House wants. But the hon Nene has referred to this, I think, under his chairmanship of the new Budget Committee. We should take that issue forward. But beyond that I would just like to remind the House that we do support the Budget and this Appropriation Bill. Thank you very much.
Mnr A BLAAS: Mnr die Voorsitter, hierdie begroting fokus op armoedeverligting; sonder enige twyfel huidig die hoogste prioriteit hier in Suid-Afrika. Dit word gedoen binne die beperkings van die begroting deur groei te stimuleer, werkskepping aan te moedig en deur beleggings in programme wat dienslewering aan armes verskaf. Binne hierdie raamwerk kan daar heelwaarskynlik klemverskuiwings wees.
Die ACDP sou ‘n groter klem wou sien op insette wat groei kon stimuleer en mense vinniger onafhanklik maak van die staat, weliswaar ten koste van sommige van die beoogde diensleweringsprogramme. Prioriteite sou verskuif word na onder meer groter ondersteuning aan mikro-, klein en medium ondernemings en die vestiging van insentiewe vir nuwe nywerhede terwyl die beoogde vaardigheidsontwikkelingsprojekte en die ondersteuning aan onderwys en opleiding behou word. Meer buigsaamheid in arbeidswetgewing sou ook noodsaaklike aandag geniet.
Binne hierdie beperkings sal die ACDP hierdie wetsontwerp steun. Dankie. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)
[Mr A BLAAS: Mr Chairperson, this budget focuses on poverty alleviation; without a doubt currently the highest priority here in South Africa. This is done within the limitations of the budget by stimulating growth, encouraging job creation and by investment in programmes that supply service delivery to the indigent. Within this framework there could most likely be shifts in emphasis.
The ACDP would have liked to see greater emphasis on inputs that can stimulate growth and make people independent of the state more quickly, admittedly at the expense of some of the envisaged service delivery programmes. Priorities would be shifted to, inter alia, more support to micro, small and medium enterprises and the establishment of incentives for new industries while the envisaged skills development programmes and support of education and training is retained. More flexibility in labour legislation would also enjoy the necessary attention.
Within these limitations the ACDP will support this legislation. Thank you.]
Ms S RAJBALLY: Acting Deputy Chair, after much debate we return to debate the Appropriation Bill. The MF has been most pleased with the debate concerning the Budget Votes. Debates have clearly deposited the House stance and commitment to utilising and dispensing funds wisely to benefit all South Africans. As in our debate in March concerning the Appropriation Bill, the MF continues to voice its support of funds appropriated to various spheres according to need. The substantial appropriation for safety and security of 16,38% deposits our nation’s commitment to stamping out crime. The MF, however, hopes that the necessary role-players shall now ensure that funds are utilised adequately to meet our ends efficiently. The MF supports the Appropriation Bill.
The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Mr B Nair): The next speaker is the hon Cassie Aucamp, but I believe he was busy with a TV interview.
Mnr C AUCAMP: Mnr die Voorsitter …
Die MINISTER VAN FINANSIES: Hy maak ‘n las van homself!
Mnr C AUCAMP: Mnr die Voorsitter, dit word laat. Ek sal nie ‘n las van myself maak nie. Die NA steun hierdie begrotingswetsontwerp. Ek dank u. [Tussenwerpsels.] (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)
[Mr C AUCAMP: Mr Chairman …
The MINISTER OF FINANCE: He is making a nuisance of himself!
Mr C AUCAMP: Mr Chairman, it is getting late. I will not make a nuisance of myself. The NA supports this Budget Vote. I thank you. [Interjections.]]
Ms N S MTSWENI: Ndabezitha [Honourable] Chairperson, I realise that as we draw to an end of this session hon members are tired. However, we have in front of us various budgets that we need to vote on today. Everyone of them has a strong element of transformation and they have made a real difference in the lives of our people. This Budget has responded to the challenge of pushing back the frontiers of poverty and expanding access to a better life for all.
This Budget, colleagues, is not an accounting system. We are talking about an allocation exercise, spending it properly and in such a way that ordinary people feel the benefits. The Budget is the most important policy instrument we have in order to improve the lives of our people. And indeed if we reflect today on where we are and where we come from we say with pride that much has changed in our country and millions of our people have started feeling the benefits of the caring Government that is committed to dealing with poverty. That is what the Government of the ANC is all about and that is what is reflected in the Budget that we are dealing with today.
The good news is that, through managing our economy responsibly and through good economic policies, we are able to increasingly translate our policies into practical programmes that benefit the poor. Even with the best policies in the world, we would not make a difference, unless we have the resources to implement them and that is the next piece of good news. It is not only this year that we are able to spend on the poor of the poorest in our country, but this increases year-after-year for the full Medium-Term Expenditure period. We are confident that it will continue beyond this three-year period. We are now poised, more than ever before, to transform our country and to tackle the problems of poverty and equality head-on. I would like to share with you some real examples on social security: The Unemployment Insurance Fund, which has and will continue to bring back the dignity of our domestic workers; the child support grant currently accessible to children until the age of seven years old has been extended to children of 14 years. This will be implemented in phases, which means that those who are seven years and eight years old will access the grant in 2003/2004 and those who are nine and ten years in 2004/2005 and those who are 11, 12, 13 and 14 years old, will access it in 2005/2006. This will improve the standard of living of the poorest children and will be an effective weapon in pushing back the frontiers of poverty.
This Budget has brought a better life to our elders and the disabled people of our country. The majority of our elders had their pensions paid out once in three months while others were entitled to a monthly pension. At this present time our elders and the disabled get their pensions every month. This pro-poor Budget continues to make sure that the food relief grant is designed to minimise the negative impact of high food prices on poverty- stricken individuals, households and vulnerable communities. The Budget has further increased support for home-based care for our people with HIV/Aids.
All of the above have a positive impact on the women of South Africa. I am happy because they are aware that this change is there because of the ANC Government. In my constituency where I am deployed …
Kua Bakgatleng ba Moshe, Ba Mokgoko, ba Chaane le kua … [At the Bakgatleng clan of Moshe, Mokgoko, chaane and … ]
… emaNdebeleni ka Ndzundza, Litho, Ndzundza Pungutjhe. [… in Ndebele areas of Ndzundza, Litho, Nazundza Pungutjhe.]
Ba bone development e kgolokgol ba re ke leboge mo Governmenteng ya ANC. [They gained a lot of development and they said I must thank the ANC-led Government.]
In the short space of time that we have had as the ANC …
Amatjhuguluko abekhona, nangifika lapha besinesibhedlela sinye lapho abantu bekhethu gade baya khona, babhadale iimali ezinengi, bakhamba iindlela ezide, bafike bajame imijeje emide bebadinwe, balambe, babuyele emakhaya balambile sele bagula okwesibili kanti balatjhiwe.
Okhunye okwenzekileko, iinkolo nangifika lapha bezingacaleki, njenga nje iinkolo zoke zilungisiwe Mbuso we ANC, kukhona nezinye ezitja ezakhiweko. Kanti kukhona amabala wemidlalo amabili, lapho abantwana bethu bakwazi ukuzithokozisa khona, kukhona godu ne-Multi Purpose Centre. Koke lokhu kwenziwe Mbuso we ANC. Kulapho ngisebenza khona angikhulumi ngendawo yoke yeMpumalanga, ngikhuluma nje ngendawo lapho mina ngithunyelwe yi-ANC eMoretele Two, kilapho lamatjhuguluko enzeke khona. Kanti akusizo kwaphela lezi engikhuluma ngazo zinengi ezikhona engingazibala kuze kutjhinge ilanga. (Translation of isiNdebele paragraphs follows.)
[Changes have taken place since my arrival at that place. Previously we had only one hospital where our people went for consultations, paid a lot of money, had to walk long distances and wait in long queues until they were tired and hungry. They returned home hungry and sick, although they just been cured of other illnesses.
When I arrived there, schools were in a state of disrepair. By now all schools have been repaired by the ANC Government; in other areas new schools have been built. And there are two stadiums where our children can entertain themselves. There is also a multipurpose centre. All these have been delivered by the ANC Government. I am only talking about the place where I work, not about the whole of Mpumalanga. I am talking about the place where I am deployed by the ANC, at Moretele Two. This is where these changes have taken place. These are not the only changes. If I start counting them all, I will talk the sun sets.]
We have also provided water, housing, electricity and roads for our people.
Abantu bekhethu abasakhambi amabanga amade, niyazi bonyana abomma ngibo abathwala lomthwalo khulu. Makufuneka kube nokudla phezu kwetafula umma kufuneka azi bonyana kuba namanzi kubanayo yoke into. Manje uMbuso we ANC ulethe zoke lezinto eduze kwabantu bethu khona bazozithola ngobuduze. [Our people no longer have to walk long distances. Members know that mothers bear the hardship the most. When there needs to be food on the table, the mother makes sure that there is water and all other things. The ANC Government has brought all this closer to the people.]
When I see these things happening especially to children who go to these schools, I see smiles on their faces, joy and happiness, confidence and hope for their future in education. This is what this Budget has done. The Government of the ANC will continue to transform the education system and better the education of an African child in particular. With all this happening, I feel proud to be a member of the ANC and proud to stand up in this House and support this Budget Vote. I thank you, ndabezitha! [honourable!]
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Wena Wendlovu! [Your Highness!]
The MINISTER OF FINANCE: Thank you, Chairperson and hon members. Congratulations to you, Ndabezitha. It’s good to see you sitting in the Chair up there.
Chairperson, this debate brings to an end four months of intense discussion
- clearly the heart and soul of political oversight, of Parliament, but an opportunity that we must give ourselves in the course of this debate to reflect on where we are. I think it’s important, in this context, to say that the process of budget reform that has taken place in this country over the past nine years places us in a position where, truly, we have empowered this Parliament in its oversight function. Each year the changes have been significant. The introduction of the Estimates of National Expenditure last year and, this year, the introduction of measurable objectives place this Parliament in a position where every member has a responsibility through a portfolio committee, but also through this plenary discussion, and a position in respect of an oversight function. That becomes important.
Now, when one looks back - and I want to be quite blunt about this - at the debate in the portfolio committees, what for me has been a bit of a tragedy has been the absence of focus on the measurable objectives. It’s there, it’s published, it’s part of a contract that the executive has with Parliament, but the living out of that function one hasn’t seen. I think that it’s important that we continue to focus on that interface between Parliament and the executive.
But there is something Parliament cannot do, and therefore, with great respect to members like the hon Taljaard, I won’t respond to the fact that sometimes some members of Parliament would like to see themselves in the position of the executive. The policy choices will remain those of the executive. We’ll go to the hustings later this year, we’ll go to the polls next year, we go to the electorate so that they can decide who exercises the options in respect of the Budget. That is correct, and that is what this Government will not give away. [Applause.] We implement our policies through the Budget, and I’m sure that while some parties in this House have no ambition to be anything other than opposition, somewhere in the back of their heads they too understand very clearly that you win the right to implement the Budget. [Interjections.] There’s no automaticity, and this Government’s not about to give away the rights that we’ve won in shaping democracy. [Interjections.] Despite what Mike Ellis, or the hon Ellis, might feel, it’s not going to be like that. He knows it, I know it, all of South Africa knows it. It’s not going to be like that.
So let’s leave aside the policy issues. Let’s focus on Parliament’s role, and here, Chairperson, with the greatest respect, I think that we must say to Parliament, as the hon Woods did, that we must continue to work at empowering Parliament to ensure that the oversight function is lived out. The Budget committee now makes a very substantial difference. I want to express my appreciation to the hon Nene for the work that they are doing in respect of the reports. The Budget committee now analyses those reports on in-year spending which are published in terms of section 32 of the Public Finance Management Act, and they’re doing a very solid job. They are able to demonstrate where there’s underspending and where there’s the risk of overspending. I’d like to encourage the chairpersons and members of all portfolio committees to avail themselves of the opportunity not only to debate Budget issues once a year when a department appears before the portfolio committee, but, in the course of the year, to use the reports generated within the parliamentary system by the Budget committee as a means for taking those discussions forward. The commitments we’ve made, each one of us, in our Estimates of National Expenditure, the measurable objectives we’ve stated, and Parliament has the right to know whether we’re living out those responsibilities.
So, in expressing appreciation for these debates that have happened, in being bold enough to draw attention to the deficiencies in the way in which there’s been a lack of focus on the measurable objectives, I want to invite Parliament, in the spirit and interests of democracy, to take forward what is published, to appreciate the work that is being done by the Budget committee and to ensure that Parliament can live out its oversight role, not after the horse has bolted, but in here. Thank you very much. [Applause.]
Debate concluded.
Bill read a second time.
The House adjourned at 17:55. ____
ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS
FRIDAY, 20 JUNE 2003
ANNOUNCEMENTS:
National Assembly and National Council of Provinces:
- Classification of Bills by Joint Tagging Mechanism:
(1) The Joint Tagging Mechanism (JTM) on 19 June 2003 in terms of
Joint Rule 160(4), classified the following Bill as a section 76
Bill:
(i) National Road Traffic Amendment Bill [B 31 - 2003]
(National Assembly - sec 76).
National Assembly:
- Referrals to committees of tabled papers:
(1) The following paper has been tabled and is now referred to the
following Portfolio Committees. The committees must confer and the
Joint Monitoring Committee on Improvement of Quality of Life and
Status of Women to report.
(a) Defence;
(b) Safety and Security;
(c) Justice and Constitutional Development;
(d) Health;
(e) Social Development; and
(f) Joint Monitoring Committee on Improvement of Quality of
Life and Status of Women.
Report of the Independent Experts' Assessment on Women, War and
Peace.
(2) The following paper is referred to the Portfolio Committee on
Labour:
Preliminary Annual Report of the Department of Labour for 2002-
2003 [RP 44-2003].
(3) The following paper is referred to the Portfolio Committee on
Agriculture and Land Affairs:
Report of the Commission on Restitution of Land Rights for 2002-
2003 [RP 48-2003].
(4) The following papers are referred to the Portfolio Committee on
Safety and Security:
(a) Strategic Plan of the Independent Complaints Directorate
for 2003-2006 [RP 40-2003].
(b) Planning Information for the South African Police Service
for 2003-2004 [RP 42-2003].
(5) The following papers are referred to the Portfolio Committee on
Justice and Constitutional Development:
(a) Government Notice No R 663 published in Government Gazette
No 24867 dated 16 May 2003: Code of Conduct for Debt
Collectors made in terms of section 14(b) of the Debt
Collectors Act, 1998 (Act No 114 of 1998).
(b) Strategic Plan of the South African Human Rights
Commission for 2003-2006.
(6) The following paper is referred to the Portfolio Committee on
Justice and Constitutional Development. The Report of the Auditor-
General is referred to the Standing Committee on Public Accounts
for consideration and report:
Report and Financial Statements of the South African Human Rights
Commission for 2001-2002, including the Report of the Auditor-
General on the Financial Statements for 2001-2002.
(7) The following paper is referred to the Portfolio Committee on
Transport:
Strategic Plan of the Department of Transport for 2003-2004.
(8) The following papers are referred to the Portfolio Committee on
Public Service and Administration:
(a) Strategic Plan of the Public Service Commission for 2003-
2006.
(b) Medium Term Strategic Plan of the Department of Public
Service and Administration for 2003-2006.
(9) The following papers are referred to the Portfolio Committee on
Water Affairs and Forestry for consideration and report:
(a) Southern African Development Community Protocol on
Forestry, tabled in terms of section 231(2) of the
Constitution, 1996.
(b) Explanatory Memorandum to the Southern African Development
Community Protocol on Forestry.
(10) The following paper is referred to the Portfolio Committee on
Water Affairs and Forestry:
Government Notice No R. 665 published in Government Gazette No
24870 dated 16 May 2003: Fire Protection Regulations, made in
terms of section 20(2) of the National Veld and Forest Fire Act,
1998 (Act No 101 of 1998).
(11) The following paper is referred to the Joint Monitoring
Committee on the Improvement of Quality of Life and Status of
Children, Youth and Disabled Persons:
Petition from the National Youth Assembly presented to the Speaker
of the National Assembly and the Chairperson of the National
Council of Provinces.
(12) The following papers are referred to the Portfolio Committee on
Finance:
(a) Report and Financial Statements of the Sasria for 2002.
(b) Government Notice No 631 published in Government Gazette
No 24845 dated 16 May 2003: Borrowing powers of Water Boards
listed under Schedule 3, Part B of the Public Finance
Management Act, 1999 (Act No 1 of 1999).
(c) Proclamation No R 34 published in Government Gazette No
24772 dated 17 April 2003: Commencement of the Division of
Revenue Act, 2003 (Act No 7 of 2003).
(13) The following paper is referred to the Portfolio Committee on
Provincial and Local Government:
Strategic Plan for the Department of Provincial and Local
Government for 2003-2006.
(14) The following papers are referred to the Portfolio Committee on
Arts, Culture, Science and Technology. The Report of the Auditor-
General is referred to the Standing Committee on Public Accounts
for consideration and report:
(a) Report and Financial Statements of the Foundation for
Education, Science and Technology, including the Report of the
Auditor-General on the Financial Statements for the period 1
April 2002 to 30 November 2002 [RP 38-2003].
(b) Report and Financial Statements of the South African
Geographical Names Council for 2001-2002.
TABLINGS:
National Assembly and National Council of Provinces:
Papers:
- The Minister of Water Affairs and Forestry:
(a) Water Tribunal Manual published in Government Gazette No 24626
dated 28 March 2003: Manual for the purposes of section 14 of the
Promotion of Access to Information Act, 2000 (Act No 2 of 2000).
(b) Government Notice No 568 published in Government Gazette No
24794 dated 2 May 2003: Transformation of the Citrusdal Irrigation
Board, Magisterial District of Clanwilliam, Western Cape Province,
into the Citrusdal Water User Association, Water Management Area
Number 17, Western Cape Province, in terms of the National Water
Act, 1998 (Act No 36 of 1998).
(c) Government Notice No 715 published in Government Gazette No
24920 dated 6 June 2003: Prohibition on the making of fires in the
open air, the destruction by burning of slash and clearing or
maintenance of fire belts by burning and the execution of
blockburns: Districts of (A) Ermelo, Eerstehoek, Carolina and
Waterval-Boven; (B) Piet Retief and Wakkerstroom, in terms of the
Forest Act, 1984 (Act No 122 of 1984).
(d) Government Notice No 716 published in Government Gazette No
24920 dated 6 June 2003: Prohibition on the making of fires in the
open air, the destruction by burning of slash and clearing or
maintenance of fire belts by burning and the execution of
blockburns: Districts of Nelspruit, White River, Pilgrim's Rest,
Lydenburg, Belfast, Waterval-Boven, Carolina and Barberton, in
terms of the Forest Act, 1984 (Act No 122 of 1984).
(e) Government Notice No 717 published in Government Gazette No
24920 dated 6 June 2003: Prohibition on the making of fires in the
open air, the destruction by burning of ground cover, including
slash, the clearing or maintenance of a fire belt by burning or
the execution of blockburns: KwaZulu-Natal, in terms of the Forest
Act, 1984 (Act No 122 of 1984).
COMMITTEE REPORTS:
National Assembly:
-
Report of the Portfolio Committee on Defence on the Anti-Personnel Mines Prohibition Bill [B 44B - 2002] (National Assembly - sec 75), dated 20 June 2003:
The Portfolio Committee on Defence, having considered the Anti- Personnel Mines Prohibition Bill [B 44B - 2002] (National Assembly
- sec 75) and proposed amendments of the National Council of Provinces (Announcements, Tablings and Committee Reports, 3 June 2003, p 535), referred to the Committee, reports the Bill with amendments [B 44C - 2002].
-
Report of the Portfolio Committee on Justice and Constitutional Development on the Treaty between the Republic of South Africa and the People’s Republic of China on Mutual Legal Assistance in Criminal Matters, dated 20 June 2003:
The Portfolio Committee on Justice and Constitutional Development, having considered the request for approval by Parliament of the Treaty between the Republic of South Africa and the People’s Republic of China on Mutual Legal Assistance in Criminal Matters, referred to it, recommends that the House, in terms of section 231(2) of the Constitution, approve the said Treaty.
Request to be considered.
-
Report of the Portfolio Committee on Transport on the National Road Traffic Amendment Bill [B 31 - 2003] (National Assembly - sec 76), dated 18 June 2003:
The Portfolio Committee on Transport, having considered the subject of the National Road Traffic Amendment Bill [B 31 - 2003] (National Assembly - sec 76), referred to it and classified by the Joint Tagging Mechanism as a section 76 Bill, reports the Bill with amendments [B 31A - 2003].
MONDAY, 23 JUNE 2003
ANNOUNCEMENTS:
National Assembly and National Council of Provinces:
- Classification of Bills by Joint Tagging Mechanism:
(1) The Joint Tagging Mechanism (JTM) on 19 June 2003 in terms of
Joint Rule 160(3), classified the following Bills as section 75
Bills:
(i) Broad-Based Black Economic Empowerment Bill [B 27 - 2003]
(National Assembly - sec 75).
(ii) Firearms Control Amendment Bill [B 28 - 2003] (National
Assembly - sec 75).
(2) The Joint Tagging Mechanism (JTM) on 19 June 2003 in terms of
Joint Rule 160(4), classified the following Bills as section 76
Bills:
(i) National Environmental Management Amendment Bill [B 29 -
2003] (National Council of Provinces - sec 76).
(ii) National Environmental Management: Biodiversity Bill [B 30
- 2003] (National Council of Provinces - sec 76).
- Translations of Bills submitted:
(1) The Minister of Transport:
(i) Nasionale Padverkeerwysigingswetsontwerp [W 31 - 2003]
(National Assembly - sec 76).
This is the official translation into Afrikaans of the National
Road Traffic Amendment Bill [B 31 - 2003] (National Assembly - sec
76).
COMMITTEE REPORTS:
National Assembly:
-
Report of the Portfolio Committee on Justice and Constitutional Development on the Judicial Officers Amendment Bill [B 72 - 2001] (National Assembly - sec 75), dated 20 June 2003:
The Portfolio Committee on Justice and Constitutional Development, having considered the subject of the Judicial Officers Amendment Bill [B 72 - 2001] (National Assembly - sec 75), referred to it and classified by the Joint Tagging Mechanism as a section 75 Bill, endorses the classification of the Bill and presents the Judicial Officers (Amendment of Conditions of Service) Bill [B 33
-
2003] (National Assembly - sec 75).
TUESDAY, 24 JUNE 2003
-
ANNOUNCEMENTS:
National Assembly and National Council of Provinces:
- Withdrawal of Bills:
(1) The Minister of Finance:
On 18 June 2003 the Minister withdrew the following Bill:
(i) Financial Services Ombud Schemes Bill [B 13 - 2002]
(National Assembly - sec 75).
National Assembly:
- Membership of Assembly:
The following member vacated his seat with effect from 19 June 2003:
Msomi, M D.
TABLINGS: National Assembly:
Papers:
- The Speaker:
Report of Delegation to 5th Session of African, Caribbean, Pacific-
European Union Joint Parliamentary Assembly, Brazzaville, Republic of
Congo, 31 March - 3 April 2003:
The African, Caribbean, Pacific-European Union Joint Parliamentary
Assembly (ACP-EU JPA) met as scheduled at Brazzaville, Republic of
Congo from March 31 to April 3 2003. As the meeting due to have been
held in the European Parliament in November 2002 did not take place for
reasons explained in our last report, the meeting in Brazzaville was
styled the Fifth Session of the ACP-EU JPA. As usual this session was
preceded by meetings of the ACP, of the Working Group on Rules of
Procedure, and on this occasion by inaugural sessions of three new
Standing Committees - on Political Affairs, on Economic Development,
Finance and Trade and on Social Affairs and the Environment. The
delegation consisted of Dr Rob Davies and Ms Ntshadi Tsheole (ANC) and
Ms Berenice Sono (DA). We were accompanied by Mr Saul Pelle of the
South African Embassy to the EU in Brussels and Ms Nosisi Potelwa of
the South African Embassy in Kinshasa (who is responsible for relations
with the Republic of the Congo). Other staff made available by the
embassy in Kinshasa provided logistical support.
After the drama resulting in the failure to convene the JPA in Brussels
last November, the Brazzaville meeting was a largely routine and fairly
low-key occasion. Attendance on the part of European Parliamentarians
was not good and, in fact, the European side was only just quorate.
Apparently, there were clashes with other meetings of some of the main
groups in the European Parliament. The ACP co-President, Mr Adrien
Houngbedji, also did not attend due to elections in Benin. Mr Angelo
Beda of Sudan, one of the ACP vice Presidents, stood in for Mr
Houngbedji on this occasion. Ms Ntshadi Tsheole also stood in as
rapporteur for the Working Group on Rules of Procedure for Mr Edgar-
Yves Monnou, who was absent for the same reason.
The convening of the Committees, which took place before the convening
of the plenary was largely procedural. We are a full member of the
Standing Committee on Economic Development, Finance and Trade. The
committees are due to convene for their first substantial working
sessions in July. In order to avoid a re-run of the issue that led to
the aborting of the November 2002 JPA - the determination of the
majority of European Parliamentarians to exclude certain members of the
Zimbabwean delegation from the European Parliamentary premises - the
Committees will meet at ACP House in Brussels. Apparently for the same
reason a long-standing proposal that sessions of the JPA in Europe be
held in the capital of the country holding the rotating Council
Presidency will now be activated, and the next session, which will
probably take place between 13th and 16th October 2003, will be in
Rome.
The JPA coincided with the full entry into force of the Cotonou
agreement on April 1st, following ratification by all European member
states and sufficient ACP countries. Two ACP delegations that had still
not ratified were denied voting rights at the JPA in terms of
provisions of the agreement.
The Brazzaville JPA also took place against the background of the US-
led war on Iraq. Both co-Presidents referred to the war in their
opening speeches: Mr Beda of the ACP strongly condemned the US assault
while Ms Glenys Kinnock of the EU side spoke in much more subdued
terms, calling for the humanitarian needs of the Iraqi people to be
paramount. While there were strong feelings among many MEPs, it was
evident that there were also sharp divisions on the EU side on this
issue. We were informed that the European Parliament had, in fact, been
unable to agree on any position on war on Iraq. Mindful of this, the
Joint Bureau agreed on a statement put to the JPA at the start of
proceedings. This was very general, lamenting the loss of life on all
sides. A moment of silence was also held. Many delegates, however, felt
this was insufficient and the Bureau agreed to allow a debate. All ACP
participants and a large majority of MEPs who spoke in this debate were
strongly against the invasion and occupation of Iraq. We took the floor
to condemn the subordination of principles of multi-lateralism and
international law to an approach that ``might is right''. We called for
support for the continuing struggle for multi-lateralism and for the
European Union to assert itself as a real alternative. We also called
for vigilance to ensure that issues in ACP-EU relations were not
marginalized by real concerns about the reconstruction of Iraq. Ms Maj
Britt Theorin of Sweden gave an input arguing that the invasion was an
illegal action in terms of international law. Only Mr Martin Callan of
the British Conservatives spoke in favour of the war. It was agreed not
to try to adopt a resolution - which would in any case have encountered
procedural difficulties in terms of deadlines for tabling resolutions.
Instead, the JPA adopted a Declaration. The gist of this indicated that
``a large majority'' of the JPA ``considers the war against Iraq to be
in breach of international law'' and ``cannot be justified'', but also
noted that ``a small minority strongly opposes this view''.
Reports on the Cotonou negotiations (largely dealt with in statements
by Development Commissioner, Poul Nielson, the Greek Presidency and the
ACP council as well as in follow up debates and questions) point to a
number of unresolved procedural issues as well as substantive
differences in a highly uneven and unequal negotiating process. The
Cotonou agreement provides for the negotiations to begin with a process
involving the EU and the whole of the ACP before breaking up into
negotiations for regionally based Economic Partnership Agreements
(EPAs) involving separate ACP sub-regions scheduled to begin in
September 2003. The ACP has indicated that it wants the ``all ACP''
phase to culminate in a framework agreement that would shape EPA
negotiations (e.g. providing for a common approach to least developed
countries) and preserve a degree of unity among the ACP. The EU,
however, is much less keen on a substantial framework agreement and
appears to be eager to embark on EPA negotiations with those ACP
countries and regions that have indicated a readiness to begin. The
issue of ACP unity is a critical one. Several speakers referred to the
``humpty dumpty'' nature of the ACP - once it is broken it will not be
able to be put together again. Although there was more time available
for discussion on the Cotonou and WTO negotiations than had been
scheduled in Brussels, the delay in convening the Committees has meant
that the JPA has yet to establish processes for systematic monitoring
and engagement with these critical issues.
An interesting bilateral issue reported to the JPA is that Cuba has
applied to join Cotonou without any pre-conditions. Cuba, already a
member of the Georgetown agreement constituting the ACP, had previously
found itself facing strong demands from the EU on issues of multi-party
democracy. Commissioner Nielson told the JPA that the Commission would
recommend that the European Council agree to admit Cuba saying this
would enhance the EU's cooperation programme and also create a basis
for more effective political dialogue.
Many of the draft resolutions on thematic issues were the same as those
tabled at the abortive Brussels meeting and dealt with issues like the
International Criminal Court, Nepad, WSSD, coffee, sugar, rice, tuna
and monitoring the WTO negotiations (the latter tabled by ourselves).
These resolutions were all passed with little difficulty.
Resolutions on ACP regions and Europe (the latter focusing on floods
and environmental management rather than political matters) were
likewise fairly routine. The Zimbabwe question, however, was once again
the subject of heated debate. The major European groups remained
strongly critical of the Zimbabwean government and called for the firm
application of EU sanctions against the country. A feature of the
debate was that a minority of ACP delegations also joined in this
criticism. They included delegates from Zambia and Botswana. The latter
referred to a refugee center in his constituency, which he said was
``full to capacity'', and urged an investigation by SADC into the
``serious problems'' in Zimbabwe. Also notable in this respect was a
strongly critical input from the representative of St Vincent and the
Grenadines, who had been strongly supportive of the Zimbabwean
government position at the Brussels meeting.
Four different resolutions on Zimbabwe were finally put to the vote.
One, tabled jointly by the European socialist and conservative groups,
was strongly critical and called for an intensification of sanctions.
Another tabled by the Greens, with support from some opposition
delegates from ACP countries, was similar but somewhat softer. The
Zimbabwean delegation alone tabled a resolution arguing that the
difficulties facing the country were entirely the product of the
failure by Britain to honour its Lancaster House commitments. The
fourth resolution, tabled by the United left group, regretted that a
lack of respect for joint decision making had led to the cancellation
of the Brussels meeting, called for dialogue between ACP and EU on
problems relating to democracy and human rights, acknowledged the land
issue and called for efforts to ``break the deadlock'' in the political
situation in Zimbabwe. We, along with most of the ACP, supported the
last resolution but none commanded the majority in both houses
necessary to be adopted - after different groups called for split votes
on each of them. We did not speak in the debate, but after the EU
President noted that the JPA had no position on Zimbabwe suggested that
the matter be referred to the Political Affairs Committee for a
thorough debate on the issues as well as possible ways to assist the
people of Zimbabwe to promote development and democracy in their
country. This suggestion appeared to command broad support.
An interesting procedural issue arose during the debate on Zimbabwe. An
opposition parliamentarian from Mozambique asked for the floor, and
also signed one of the motions. The ACP co-chair ruled that he could
speak if the leader of the Mozambique delegation agreed. The leader of
their delegation said she had no objection if the rules provided for
this, but the JPA should understand that he did not speak on behalf of
the Mozambican delegation. This caused major confusion, which could not
be resolved at the time. The role and status of opposition party
members on ACP delegations, which have only one vote, has been referred
to the Working Group on Rules of Procedure for further processing.
On the Friday after the JPA, as we were waiting for the return flight,
we crossed the river and visited Kinshasa. This enabled us to pay a
courtesy call on the embassy, and also to visit the South African
military contingent attached to the United Nations Mission to the DRC
(Monuc). The visit to the Monuc contingent by parliamentarians was, we
believe, much appreciated by the troops we were able to meet.
The delegation feels, finally, obliged to make a brief comment on the
original travel arrangements. We were initially sent via Luanda (with a
16 hour stopover) and Ponte Noire. Until noticed by us, no visas were
obtained for Angola. Ntshadi Tsheole and Berenice Sono found themselves
hassled at Ponte Noire, where no arrangements had been made for
receiving delegates to the JPA. This detour led to the two Members
arriving late for the ACP plenary. We subsequently discovered that
there are several direct flights both to Brazzaville and Kinshasa, and
in fact returned on these routes. While we appreciate the need for
Parliament to economise on air travel costs by using air miles, we
would also urge that decisions on routing should also take account of
conditions on the ground, and that sending delegations on such round
about routes should be avoided if possible.
Rob Davies Ntshadi Tsheole Berenice Sono