WEDNESDAY, 25 FEBRUARY 2004 __

          PROCEEDINGS OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
                                ____

The Council met at 15:02.

The Deputy Chairperson of the NCOP took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayers or meditation.

ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS - see col 0000.

                          NOTICE OF MOTION

Ms C BOTHA: Chair, I hereby give notice that at the next sitting of the House I will move:

That the Council -

(1) notes that -

   (a)  on 18 November Ms C Botha announced in  this  Council  that  she
       would again be appealing to both the Minister of Foreign Affairs
       and the President  of  the  Republic  to  act  on  the  shameful
       retention of Mr Norman  Mashabane  as  Ambassador  to  Indonesia
       despite  having  been  found  guilty  on  22  counts  of  sexual
       harassment;


   (b)  Ms Botha has consistently done so during the past year;


   (c)  she  has  received  acknowledgement  of  her  letters  from  the
       Department of Foreign Affairs but no further response;


   (d)  she has received no acknowledgement from the Presidency;


   (e)  she has requested the Consul-General of  Indonesia  to  withdraw
       the invitation to Mr Mashabane to speak at a  gender  conference
       in Indonesia later this year; and
   (f)  the organisers of the conference say that they  cannot  withdraw
       the  invitation  without  such  intervention  or  Mr   Mashabane
       offering to withdraw;

(2) once again calls on the Minister of Foreign Affairs and the Presidency to dispel the impression that sexual harassment will be tolerated if it is committed by senior officials in Government by immediately suspending Ambassador Mashabane or openly explaining in public why they are not suspending him as recommended in both his disciplinary hearings.

DEHUMANISED FAMILY OF FARMWORKERS DISCOVERED IN THEUNISSEN, NEAR WELKOM

                         (Draft Resolution)

Nkk J N VILAKAZI: Sihlalo ohloniphekileyo, ngenza nasi isiphakamiso ngaphandle kwesaziso:

Ukuthi lo mKhandlu - (1) ubabaza umhlola ngomndeni wasepulazini elise-Theunissen, ngase- Welkom, e-Free State, onabantwana abane kanye nabazali babo asebehlale kuleli pulazi ngaphandle kokuvunyelwa ngumqashi wabo wokuqala ukuba baphumele ngaphandle kwalo, bahlangane nabanye abantu;

(2) ushaqekile ngesihluku salo mqashi esidale ukuba zozine izingane zalo mndeni zikhule zingakwazi ukuhlangana nabanye abantu, zingakwazi ukukhuluma nokuhamba njengabantu, zigxumagxume njengezilwane zasendle, zibukeke zikhubazekile engqondweni futhi zingafundi;

(3) uzwile ukuthi dokotela wengqondo ozihlolileyo uyavuma ukuthi ngeke zisafundiseka ukuphila nokukhuluma kahle njengabantu ngoba sezikhulile kakhulu;

(4) ubonga umqashi wesibili wabazali balezi zingane ngokuba abikele abezenhlalakahle ngalolu daba, okubangele ukuba zithathwe zisiwe esikhungweni sabagula ngengqondo; futhi

(5) ubonga uMnyango wezeMpilo wase-Free State noNgqongqoshe wawo ngokusukumela lolu daba ukuze lezi zingane esezihlale ngaphezu kwamashumi amabili eminyaka kule nhlupheko zithole usizo. (Translation of isiZulu draft resolution follows.)

[Mrs J N VILAKAZI: Mr Chairperson, I move without notice:

That the Council -

(1) expresses its utmost shock about a family living on a farm in Theunissen near Welkom in the Free State where the four children and their parents have not been allowed by the previous owner of the farm to have any contact with other people;

(2) expresses its shock at the cruelty of this employer which led to the four siblings growing up without being able to socialise with other people, and unable to speak and walk like humans - they jump around like wild animals, are illiterate and appear to be mentally retarded;

(3) notes that the psychiatrist who examined them concedes that they are unable to be taught human communication and social norms because they are too old for that;

(4) expresses its gratitude to the second employer of these children who informed welfare officials about this matter, which led to their being taken to a mental institution; and

(5) expresses its gratitude to the Free State department of health and its MEC for speedily attending to this matter so that these children, who have spent over 20 years of their lives in poverty, can get help.]

Mr V V Z WINDVOЁL: Sihlalo lohlon, ngitsanda kufaka sichibiyelo sekutsi lendzaba:

(6) yendluliselwe egunjini laka Khomishane wemaLungelo eluNtfu. (Translation of isiZulu paragraph follows.)

[Hon Chairperson, I would like to move an amendment that:

(6) the Council recommends that the matter be referred to the Human Rights Commission.]

Amendment agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.

Motion, as amended, agreed to in accordance with secion 65 of the Constitution, namely:

That the Council -

(1) expresses its utmost shock about a family living on a farm in Theunissen near Welkom in the Free State where the four children and their parents have not been allowed by the previous owner of the farm to have any contact with other people;

(2) expresses its shock at the cruelty of this employer which led to the four siblings growing up without being able to socialise with other people, and unable to speak and walk like humans - they jump around like wild animals, are illiterate and appear to be mentally retarded;

(3) notes that the psychiatrist who examined them concedes that they are unable to be taught human communication and social norms because they are too old for that;

(4) expresses its gratitude to the second employer of these children who informed welfare officials about this matter, which led to their being taken to a mental institution;

(5) expresses its gratitude to the Free State department of health and its MEC for speedily attending to this matter so that these children, who have spent over 20 years of their lives in poverty, can get help; and

(6) recommends that this matter be referred to the Human Rights Commission.

     CONGRATULATIONS TO GOVERNMENT ON IMPROVING SOCIAL SERVICES

                         (Draft Resolution)

Ms D M RAMODIBE: Hon Chairperson, I rise to move a motion without notice:

That the Council -

(1) acknowledges that since 1994 significant progress has been made by the ANC in de-racialising social services and extending the social safety net to all South Africans;

(2) notes that, amongst others, the ANC-led Government has -

   (a)  equalised old age pensions and spread the  reach  of  the  child
       support grant among all eligible children;


   (b)  increased the expenditure on these social grants threefold  from
       R10 billion in 1994 to R34 billion in 2003; and


   (c)  increased the number of beneficiaries from just over  2  million
       to almost 7 million;

(3) recognises that while the grants on their own are inadequate to address the huge challenges facing poor families and communities, these grants provide welcome relief from crushing poverty by injecting billions of rands into the budgets of poor households; and

(4) commends and supports the efforts of Government to further improve access to social security measures by reducing corruption and incorporating these grants into a comprehensive social security system.

Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.

                FALSE HIJACKING AND KIDNAPPING ALARMS

                         (Draft Resolution)

Kgoshi M L MOKOENA: Chairperson, I wish to move a motion without notice:

That the Council -

(1) notes with shock and disbelief the tendency by some individuals to falsely report that they have been hijacked or kidnapped when they are actually enjoying themselves somewhere else;

(2) notes that one man falsely reported having been hijacked and kidnapped when, in fact, he was busy gambling in a casino;

(3) notes that one woman also reported that she was hijacked and kidnapped when she was actually cheating on her husband and canoodling with her concubine and did not know how to face her husband;

(4) notes with shock that the Department of Safety and Security had to deploy 100 police officers, 50 police cars and one helicopter to go on a massive search and rescue operation in order to rescue her;

(5) notes that the whole operation cost the department no less than R100 000, this in the light of the scarce resources in this department;

(6) asserts that this money could have been used for people who desperately need help;

(7) calls upon these callous individuals to desist from this abhorrent behaviour, because this might discourage the police from swiftly attending to people who genuinely need their help desperately;

(8) calls upon the Department of Justice and Constitutional Affairs to show no mercy when these bad elements are identified.

[Applause.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr M J Mahlangu): Hon member, I just want to draw your attention to the fact that the matter which the contents of the motion addresses is before the courts and is therefore sub judice. So the motion will not be carried.

APPEAL TO ALL SOUTH AFRICANS TO ADHERE TO VALUES AND PRINCIPLES SET OUT IN PREAMBLE TO CONSTITUTION

                         (Draft Resolution)

Mnr P A MATTHEE: Mnr die Voorsitter, ek stel hiermee sonder kennisgewing voor:

Dat die Raad, gebaseer op ‘n gedeelde verbintenis tot die realisering van die waardes en beginsels soos weerspieël in die Aanhef tot die Suid- Afrikaanse Grondwet, ‘n ernstige beroep doen op alle Suid-Afrikaners om by te dra tot -

(1) die bou van ‘n nasionale konsensus gebaseer op ware Suid-Afrikaanse patriotisme as ‘n sleutel-instrument om ons samelewing werklik nie- rassig te maak;

(2) die ontwikkeling van ‘n gedeelde voorneme om die groot uitdagings van ons land aan te pak, insluitende armoede, werkloosheid, haweloosheid, misdaad en MIV/vigs en ander siektes;

(3) die strewe om versoening en goeie inter-gemeenskapsverhoudinge te bewerkstellig ten einde ‘n ware nie-rassige en nie-seksistiese Suid- Afrikaanse samelewing te skep, sodat ons saam die nalatenskap van die verlede kan aanpak; en

(4) die speel van die belangrike rol deur Suid-Afrika in die grootskaalse mobilisering van die relevante menslike en materiële hulpbronne wat nodig is vir die ontwikkeling van beide ons land en ons kontinent. (Translation of Afrikaans draft resolution follows.)

[Mr P A MATTHEE: Mr Chairperson, I move without notice:

That the Council, based on a shared commitment to the realisation of the values and principles as reflected in the Preamble to the South African Constitution, earnestly appeals to all South Africans to contribute towards -

(1) the creation of a national consensus based on true South Afrian patriotism as a key instrument towards making our society truly nonracial; (2) the development of a shared resolution to take on the big challenges of our country, including poverty, unemployment, homelessness, crime, and HIV/Aids and other diseases;

(3) endeavouring to bring about intercommunal relations in order to create a truly nonracial and nonsexist South African society so that together we can address the inheritance of the past; and

(4) South Africa’s playing an important role in the large-scale mobilisation of the relevant human and material resources needed for the development of both our country and our continent.]

Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.

   CONDOLENCES EXTENDED TO VICTIMS OF MOROCCO EARTHQUAKE DISASTER

                         (Draft Resolution)

Ms R P MASHANGOANE: Chairperson, I hereby move without notice:

That the Council -

(1) is deeply saddened to learn of the tragic loss of life caused by the earthquake that hit the northern part of Morocco;

(2) notes that the promptness with which the Government of Morocco has mobilised initial humanitarian aid has helped to mitigate the initial level of suffering; and

(3) extends its condolences to the people and the Government of Morocco, particularly to the families of the victims.

Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.

              NEW VEHICLES DELIVERED TO SAPS IN QWAQWA
                         (Draft Resolution)

Rev M CHABAKU: Chairperson, I wish to move without notice:

That the Council -

(1) commends the Free State government and the MEC for safety and security on their recent delivery of 49 new cars to the SAPS in Qwaqwa, in order to make the fight against crime more effective;

(2) notes that the 49 cars are made up of twelve Almera sedans; five Condors; twenty-five 4x4 double cabs; two 2X4 closed DVs; two 2x4 open DVs; one Hiace 16 - seater and two Tata Canters; and

(3) acknowledges that this is another example of how the ANC-led Government continues to make the fight against crime very effective.

Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.

              SOUTH AFRICAN SOCIAL SECURITY AGENCY BILL
                       SOCIAL ASSISTANCE BILL

(Consideration of Bills and of Reports thereon)

The MINISTER OF SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT: Mr Chairman and delegates from the provinces, as the term of this Parliament begins to draw to a close, it is vital that we reflect and ask ourselves what difference we have made to the lives of the poor and vulnerable people in our country.

When our people spoke in 1999 they gave us a mandate to build a caring society and to entrench the democratic system and the human rights contained in our Constitution and our laws. This mandate gives us the yardstick that should be used in considering the Social Assistance Bill and the South African Social Security Agency Bill.

I will use my opening remarks in this debate to elaborate upon the two anchors which underpin these Bills. Firstly, the Bills serving before this plenary session of the NCOP are designed to enable us to continue making progress towards building a caring society. Secondly, the Bills are a product of our democratic system of governance and represent the next stage in our work to ensure the progressive realisation of the constitutional right of access to social assistance.

It should be noted that our Government presented a package of four social development Bills to Parliament. The research, drafting and public participation process in terms of these four Bills have been under way for longer than the past four years. It is our hope that the Children’s Bill and the Older Persons Bill will be considered speedily and passed by Parliament - that is the next Parliament.

Our starting point in considering the Social Assistance Bill and the South African Social Security Agency Bill, however, has to be the question: What difference have we made in the lives of our people, especially the vulnerable and the poor in this country since 1994? The answer, as reflected in the Government’s 10-year review report, is that Government has made major achievements in the first decade of freedom and is very proud of its track record on this matter.

Pertinent to today’s debate are measures that the Government has put in place to address both poverty and social exclusion in our society. We have deracialised eligibility for, and extended access to, social grants. This is part and parcel of the ANC Government’s commitment to creating a people- centred society, to the expansion of the frontiers of human fulfilment and to the continual extension of the frontiers of freedom in this country.

To complement the enhanced income capabilities we have created for poor people, we have introduced special programmes that protect older people, people with disabilities, children and vulnerable workers in the domestic and farming sectors.

As a result of our policy measures, the number of people benefiting from social assistance has increased from 2,6 million in 1994 to over 7,7 million currently. Of the 2,6 million people benefiting from social grants in 1994, over 1,6 million were older people and only 60 000 were children from the coloured, white and Indian communities. Today, the total number of children in receipt of social grants in all communities exceeds 4,4 million. As we speak, approximately 4,2 million children receive the child support grant, 190 000 the foster care grant and 75 000 the care- dependency grant.

As indicated by these figures, compared to 1994 a total of 4,1 million more children now receive Government support in the form of the child support grant alone. In percentage terms this represents a 6 000% increase over 10 years.

In addition to this, Government has decided to extend the child support grant to include children up to 14 years of age. By the year 2006 an additional 2,2 million children will have been registered for the child support grant. This increased coverage has been incorporated into budget allocations. Total Government expenditure on social grants increased from R10 billion in 1994 to R34,8 billion in 2003. In addition to increased coverage, the real value of the grants continues to increase at a rate above that of inflation.

These are not mere statistics, but represent a commitment to strengthening families and communities and creating a better life for children overall. As a result of our policy of redress and the redirection of resources, we have made significant progress in extending the social security net to poor children, vulnerable families, people with disabilities and older persons. Government could not have achieved this working on its own.

Accordingly, I take this opportunity to express my sincere gratitude to traditional leaders, community-based organisations, nongovernmental organisations, faith-based organisations, the business community, volunteers and all committed South Africans, including members of this House, who have made it possible for Government to give concrete expression to the objective of building a caring society.

The undeniable South African reality of today is that for all our fellow citizens life is better in 2004 than it was in 1999. Similarly, the undeniable South African reality of 1999 was that life was better in 1999 than it was in 1994. It is clear that we are a people united in an unstoppable advance towards a better South Africa and a better world.

The Bills before the NCOP also speak to constitutional imperatives. A fundamental purpose of the Constitution is to improve the quality of life of all citizens, especially vulnerable people in South Africa. Socioeconomic rights, including the right of access to social security, are at the heart of this purpose. The Constitution therefore imposes an obligation on the state to take reasonable measures to ensure the progressive realisation of the right of access to social security within available resources. Concomitantly, the Constitution also enjoins Government to ensure that services are provided to all in an equitable and dignified manner.

The introduction of the Social Assistance Bill and the South African Social Security Agency Bill marks the culmination of the Government’s efforts of moving South Africa from having a fragmented and incoherent social security system to having an integrated national system that improves the protection of the most vulnerable people in our society. The fragmented spheres of jurisdiction and institutional arrangements that we still have in our social assistance system have created loopholes for fraudulent practices and parallel lines of accountability for performance management.

It is estimated that over R1,5 billion per annum may be pocketed by people who fraudulently claim social security benefits. We are not oblivious to the dubious schemes of those who want to enrich themselves illegally at the expense of the poor. We are taking these syndicates to court to face justice. We take this opportunity to repeat our message: “There is zero tolerance for fraud and corruption in our social assistance system. The net of the law and justice is closing in on those officials, third-party contractors and syndicates which are enriching themselves illegally at the expense of poor people of this country.”

Over the past few months, various measures and systems have been deployed to enable us to identify officials in the Public Service who may be fraudulently receiving benefits intended for poor people. In collaboration with the Scorpions and the SA Police Service, we are continuing to make arrests. We are resolute in our commitment to fighting fraud and corruption and bringing these people to face justice.

Because of all these issues, the Social Assistance Bill creates a nationally co-ordinated system for existing grants. It addresses fundamental issues relating to legislative oversight, political accountability and administrative responsibility. The Bill also provides for the statutory allocation of the sole responsibility for the management and administration of social assistance grants to the agency.

In addition, the Social Assistance Bill creates uniform norms and standards that will apply countrywide. It provides for the publishing of regulations on performance management and adherence to the Batho Pele principles of customer service. It also establishes an independent inspectorate, whose function it will be to ensure the integrity of the social grant system.

In keeping with the best practice principle of separating policy-making from service delivery responsibility, the South African Social Security Agency Bill established a specialised institution tasked with the management, administration and payment of social assistance grants. The Bill creates a uniform but flexible service delivery mechanism to ensure that the Government pays the right grant amount to the right person at the right time and in a dignified manner.

As part of the process of creating the South African Social Security Agency, the Council of Social Development Ministers from national and provincial spheres of government has committed itself to the speedy restructuring of the departments of social development. The restructuring process provides for the enhancement of the capacity of provincial departments to expand the provision of social welfare services, poverty relief intervention and programmes that mitigate the socioeconomic impact of HIV/Aids.

These initiatives will therefore require additional skills and competencies. In this regard the Council of Social Development Ministers has approved a strategy and grading scale that we are confident will not only retain social workers in the country, but also encourage more young people to join the profession.

As indicated in Government’s 10-year review programme, the provision of social grants is the Government’s most effective programme to address the income poverty of our people. The social grants currently administered by this department are targeted at pensioners, poor families with children, war veterans, people with disabilities, children in compromised family environments and people in need in general.

We are aware that despite our concerted efforts to extend the social safety net to the most vulnerable there are still challenges that we face. These challenges are being dealt with as part of our ongoing work on the development of a comprehensive social security system for this country.

Our first 10 years of freedom have been 10 years of growing unity in action, 10 years of peace and stability, 10 years of increasingly making the resources in the hands of the state available for uplifting disadvantaged South Africans, and 10 years of expanding opportunities to build a better life for all. We are making progress in building a caring society because of the active citizenship and spirit of responsibility and volunteerism amongst all of us.

I take this opportunity to thank the officials from the national and provincial departments of social security and social development for their hard work on these Bills. I also acknowledge and applaud the active citizenship of the various civil society organisations that made submissions and participated in the public hearings on these Bills.

I also extend my sincere appreciation to the members of the Portfolio Committee on Social Development and the Select Committee on Social Services for their various deliberations on and contribution to the Bills. We know that they worked under pressure. The MECs for social development in their provinces and my colleagues, Ministers Trevor Manuel and Geraldine Fraser- Moleketi, also worked closely with my department on these Bills and I acknowledge their support.

The Social Assistance Bill and the South African Social Security Agency Bill fulfil the mandate given to us by our people to build a caring society and entrench the democratic system and the human rights embodied in our Constitution and our laws. We have been and will always remain true to the people’s contract. I thank you. [Applause.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr M J Mahlangu): I now call Ms Jacobus, the chairperson of the Select Committee on Social Services.

Ms L JACOBUS: Thank you, Deputy Chair. Hon Minister and MEC of social development for the Western Cape - you are the only one that joined us here today; thank you - members, I must say thank you once more for the opportunity to participate in this debate. The two Bills before us today, the Social Assistance Bill and the South African Social Security Agency Bill have been referred to as twin Bills. This means that we should read these Bills one with the other. We have, therefore, as a committee decided to have one debate on the two together, not because we are lazy but because they have to be read together.

Since both these Bills are section 76 Bills, provinces were encouraged to have public hearings, and I am glad to report that seven out of the nine provinces subjected these Bills to public hearings. KwaZulu-Natal and Limpopo, unfortunately, were the only two who did not manage to have these public hearings. Therefore, regarding the mandates we received, we can confidently say they were informed by the stakeholders and people of these respective provinces.

I will not go into the details, but rather just highlight the main thrusts of both these Bills and what they aim to achieve. Regarding the Social Assistance Bill, I refer to section 27(1)(c) of our Constitution which reads as follows, and I quote:

Everyone has the right to have access to social security, including, if they are unable to support themselves and their dependants, appropriate social assistance.

Section 27(2) subsequently places a responsibility on the state to take reasonable legislative and other measures, within its available resources, to achieve the progressive realisation of this right. I also just want to appeal to this side to stop their private meeting. [Interjections.]

Given these constitutional provisions, this Bill has come to see the light.

The Bill provides for, amongst other things, firstly, the rendering of social assistance to persons; secondly, the mechanisms for the rendering of such assistance; and, thirdly, the establishment of an inspectorate for social assistance. Chapter 2 of the Bill identifies the various grant types and who is eligible for which grant. However, the one concern we had was that no provision was made for child-headed households. It is, however, a concern that we know the Minister shares with us. It is a concern that we continuously raised through our budget policy debates over the past few years. We hope and are confident that as we enter our second decade of democracy, these vulnerable little members of our society will receive priority attention.

In Chapter 3 the Bill also sets out the procedure for application for social assistance through the agency, which we will come to later, as well as an appeal procedure if the applicant disagrees with the decision made by the agency. Clause 20 of the Bill, I think, is of particular significance to beneficiaries of social grants. It deals with the abuse of these grants by either the beneficiary, the parent, procurator or primary care-giver. This is a definite positive for helpless beneficiaries and the state in particular, against those who want to abuse limited resources for their own selfish needs and underhanded purposes. I would even go so far as to say that abuse of any of the social grants by any person should be made a punishable offence.

With the level of poverty we are facing currently, we cannot afford that any person receiving moneys meant for the alleviation of poverty and those in genuine need spends it inappropriately or accesses it fraudulently.

Chapter 4 of the Bill deals with the establishment of the inspectorate for social assistance. Of significant importance here are the functions of the inspectorate, and I briefly want to refer to these. These functions are to conduct investigations to ensure the maintenance of the integrity of the social assistance frameworks and systems; to execute internal financial audits and audits on compliance; to investigate fraud, corruption and other forms of financial and service mismanagement; to establish a complaints mechanism; and, to do everything necessary to combat the abuse of social assistance.

This inspectorate, which will be headed by the executive director, will be completely independent but accountable to the Minister through its executive director.

Regarding the South African Social Security Agency Bill, the establishment of this agency is another milestone in our history. For those of us who can recall the last publication of the Intergovernmental Fiscal Review, one of the recommendations under the Social Services chapter was the establishment of an agency for the payment of social grants. The majority of the nine provinces have over the years outsourced this function to private companies. And, I don’t think I have to remind the House of the countless problems that some of these provinces have experienced and are still experiencing through this exercise.

Beneficiaries of social grants in many areas, especially our rural areas of the country, have to endure harsh and difficult conditions while waiting to receive their grants. This is largely because the tender agreements between provincial governments and companies responsible for rendering this service for payments vary dramatically.

There has been no uniform set of requirements or standards to which these companies have to adhere. In some instances, no shelter, water or ablution facilities are available. Without these basic requirements, the beneficiaries’ human dignity stands to be greatly diminished. We can continue the whole afternoon and cite examples of these harsh conditions, or unsavoury conditions if you want to put it mildly.

The establishment of this agency is a direct result of Government’s commitment to and prioritisation of improvement of service delivery to our people. The agency will have the following objectives: firstly, to act eventually as the sole agent that will ensure the efficient and effective management, administration and payment of social assistance; secondly, to serve as an agent for the prospective administration and payment of social security; and, thirdly, to render services relating to such payments.

I also have to mention a few important functions that the agency will be performing, that is the promotion and protection of the human dignity of applicants for and beneficiaries of social security; honest, impartial, fair and equitable service delivery; and the establishment of mechanisms to regulate community participation and consultation.

As a committee, we are of the view that the establishment of this agency will address many of the difficulties and challenges we are currently experiencing around the payments of social grants. We have proposed amendments from our provinces to both these Bills, and I am happy to report that the portfolio committee in the National Assembly welcomed and accepted all these amendments. There are, however, some concerns raised by Treasury on both these Bills and these are captured in our committee reports for consideration by the Minister, and if he or she - I am saying he or she because we do not know who the Minister will be in the next Parliament - deems it fit to table amendments in the next Parliament, he or she may do so.

In conclusion, I also want to thank the Minister and his department for the continuous support that they have rendered throughout the five years that we have been a committee in this House. And, I want to also appeal to them to continue with that support and encouragement for the next committee in the new Parliament. I also want to say thank you to the members of the committee for their diligent work in the various provinces. With these few words, I want to table the report on the Social Assistance Bill and the South African Social Security Agency Bill with the amendments, as proposed by the select committee, for adoption. Thank you. [Applause.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr M J Mahlangu): Order! Before I proceed to call the next speaker, I would like to recognise the citizens of South Africa sitting in the gallery. They are pensioners from Kuils River, Mitchells Plain, Langa and Philippi. [Applause.] I wish to say you are most welcome.

We appreciate your visiting the Council today to listen to these wonderful debates. All these people are members of the Council and, with the Minister, are looking after you. You are all at all times free to visit us during our debates on the issues that concern you, and you are free to raise them with the Council. It is our duty to respond and attend to your problems. You are most welcome. [Applause.]

I now call the hon M L Fransman, the MEC for social services and poverty alleviation, Western Cape.

Mr M L FRANSMAN (Western Cape): Mr Chairperson, Minister, hon members, in the 10th year of our democracy one can reflect on the past 10 years and one can proudly say that the Government is on the side of the poor, and that their track record over the past 10 years has signified a fast-tracking in the delivery of very basic services to the people, which include increases in grants and the issues the Minister has raised.

One is honoured to be given an opportunity to address you on these two Bills, because these Bills are the culmination of a very long and well- considered process to ensure a better life for the poorest and the most vulnerable in our society. In fact, I want to say that these Bills are about strengthening our safety net.

From the recommendations of the Chikane Commission in 1996 and the prior recognition of the importance of social security for the RDP, to the recognition of the truly impressive gains we have made in our first decade of democracy and freedom, there has been an inexorable move towards ensuring uniform norms and standards that apply nationally for social security.

Just reflecting on the Western Cape scenario, today over half a million beneficiaries in the Western Cape are accessing our grants. In terms of the child support alone there are approximately 230 000 children, and, in the past 12 months alone, we have been able to register at least 43 000 children between seven and eight years old. That means more children than at any time before. We know in the Western Cape that we have only been able to do this through the decisive leadership of the national Ministry and the national department, and therefore we want to thank them.

However, we know that our people are not getting equal services everywhere. We also know that there is no uniformity in poverty. Poverty has greater depths in rural areas, in provinces with fewer resources and in districts where the legacy of apartheid hangs more heavily over our people.

The poorest and most marginalised, wherever they are, have an equal right to the same services and efficiency as experienced by those in well- resourced urban areas. These Bills will ensure that our people will have access to equal services. The Social Assistance Bill and the South African Social Security Agency Bill are therefore major steps in the progressive realisation of the right to social security as set out in section 27 of the Constitution.

Minister, as you have correctly pointed out, the provision of social grants is the Government’s most effective programme in addressing the income poverty of our people. Indeed, having consolidated the gains of our first decade of democracy, our attention must now turn to fighting poverty as the highest priority in the second decade.

The President has challeged us and, through the Millennium Development Goals, we undertake to halve poverty by 2014. These Bills will be instrumental in achieving these goals, because they will be the most effective mechanism in ensuring the proper distribution of resources for the implementation of social security.

As things now stand, provinces pay grants out of the equitable share and it is left to the treasury of each province to budget for social security expenditure. More often than not this results in social security squeezing out other social development programmes. In some instances, as has happened in my own province, money is reallocated in the middle of the financial year, resulting in unacceptable impacts on other areas of work. These impacts are felt in youth programmes, moral regeneration, poverty, HIV/Aids, early childhood development, substance abuse, etc.

Once these Bills are implemented, the province will have greater stability and sustainability in social development and poverty programmes. In fact, this gives us the opportunity to start realigning and looking at social development in the context of Vision 2014. There can be no doubt that it is desirable for social security to be administered uniformly, on a national level.

We must, however, make very sure that there is an orderly transition. In this regard in the Western Cape - and I’m sure in the other provinces - we will do, collectively, everything in our power to assist during the transition period. We expect that in the transition period we will face many a challenge owing to the nature of change.

The realignment of budgets, the redeployment of staff, developing the institutional structure of the agency, and ensuring adequate penetration in the remotest rural areas are but some of the obvious challenges. No doubt, there will be some unintended consequences and some unanticipated difficulties, but none of that can detract from the soundness of the concept of a national, integrated and cohesive social security system.

Indeed, these Bills are the product of a long process that started in 1994, which process has, time and again, demonstrated the need for a national agency to administer grants in terms of uniform national norms and standards.

As always, probably owing to vested interests and privilege, there will be criticism. As always, with more resources and more time, we could possibly have done better, but we don’t have the luxury to wait for a more perfect system. More debate and deliberation will prejudice the most vulnerable and poor. We have an obligation to act when we are in a position to do so, not always when it is best to do so. We must, therefore, act now.

Finally, our President, in his state of the nation address, expressed most eloquently the test we have to apply in evaluating any piece of legislation when he said:

A decade ago, Nelson Mandela said:

 The acid test of the legitimacy of the  programmes  we  elaborate,  the
 government institutions we create and the legislation we adopt must  be
 whether ...


 ... they help to create a people-centred society, the expansion of  the
 frontiers of human fulfilment, and  the  continuous  extension  of  the
 frontiers of freedom.

The President continued, saying:

As we progress to the celebration of our first decade of liberation and democracy, I trust that the national, provincial and local legislatures will give themselves the opportunity to answer the question whether they have passed this acid test.

These Bills, I argue, pass that acid test with flying colours. When we pass these Bills we will indeed have more cause to celebrate, because we would have ensured a better life for the poorest and the most vulnerable in our communities. In conclusion, I want to again thank both the NCOP for its support and the Western Cape legislature in the context of the public hearings, and I also want to thank the national department and the national Ministry. I thank you. [Applause.]

Dr P J C NEL: Dankie, mnr die Voorsitter. Mnr die Voorsitter, dit is vir my ‘n groot voorreg om vandag namens die provinsie, my provinsie, deel te neem aan hierdie debat.

Die feit dat die voorsitter van die portefeuljekomitee van die Vrystaat my gevra het om namens hom op te tree is ‘n sprekende bewys van die goeie gesindheid en samewerking wat daar die afgelope byna vyf jaar onder die ses permanente afgevaardigdes en die portefeuljekomitee van die Vrystaat oor partypolitieke grense heen geheers het. Ons het deurentyd as ‘n span hartlik saam gewerk in belang van die Vrystaat.

Dit was ook die geval met hierdie twee konsepwette wat vandag voor ons is. Ek wil graag erkenning gee aan die goeie werk wat die portefeuljekomitee van die Vrystaat gedoen het. Hulle het drie “hearings” of verhore gehou in drie distrikte van die Vrystaat en hulle het baie tyd spandeer aan hierdie twee wette en het ook daarin geslaag om 19 sinvolle amendemente aan die gekose komitee voor te lê waarvan die meeste opgeneem is in die finale dokument. Daarvoor spreek ek graag vandag my dank uit teenoor my kollegas en teenoor die lede van die portefeuljekomitee. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)

[Dr P J C NEL: Thank you, Mr Chairman, Mr Chairman, I feel very privileged to be able to participate in this debate today on behalf of the province, my province.

The fact that the chairperson of the portfolio committee of the Free State asked me to act on his behalf is conclusive proof of the good feeling and co-operation that have prevailed over the past five years among the six permanent delegates and the portfolio committee of the Free State across party-political borders. We worked together heartily as a team the whole time in the interests of the Free State.

This was also the case with these two pieces of draft legislation before us today. I would like to give recognition for the good work done by the portfolio committee of the Free State. They held three hearings in three districts of the Free State and they spent of a lot of time on these two Acts and also succeeded in submitting 19 meaningful amendments to the select committee, most of which have been incorporated in the final document. For that I would like to express my thanks today to my colleagues and to the members of the portfolio committee.]

We are dealing today with two very important pieces of legislation. The two Bills are companion Bills that must be seen together. The provision of social assistance should be seen as a service for the most vulnerable people in our country and one of the most important poverty alleviation programmes of the Government.

Two of the objects of the Social Assistance Bill are, inter alia, to ensure that minimum norms and standards are set for the delivery of social assistance and to provide for the establishment of an inspectorate for social security. The aim is to create a mechanism for investigation and objective assessment of the social assistance service delivery institutions and to endeavour to ensure the integrity and quality of service delivery by the agency.

South Africa simply cannot afford to lose some of the money budgeted for poverty relief due to bad administration and corruption, as was spelt out by the hon Minister today. The establishment of an inspectorate for social services is therefore very necessary.

The Bill further provides for the financing of social assistance and the administration and payment of social grants. The Bill furthermore sets the main criteria for the various grant types. No new grant types are introduced.

The South African Social Security Agency Bill, as I have already mentioned, must be read with the Social Assistance Bill. This Bill is enabling legislation for the establishment of a national social security agency. Effective provision of services requires uniform norms and standards. Currently, the processes used by the various provinces vary both within and between the provinces.

There is a lack of uniformity in the documents used and in the customer relations procedures. Consequently, in the absence of national uniform administrative processes, access to social grants continues to be unequal. The main objective of the agency is to ensure the effective management, administration and payment of grants in the country through the optimum utilisation of partnerships.

The portfolio committee of the Free State is of the opinion that the establishment of such an agency will ensure that all citizens will eventually have equal access to social security and that it will ensure that, through less duplication of expenditures, costs will be reduced. The Free State supports both these Bills.

Aangesien hierdie my laaste optrede in hierdie agb Huis sal wees, omdat ek nou uittree uit die politiek, gun my asseblief die geleentheid om nog ‘n paar woorde te sê.

Ek is baie dankbaar dat ek lid kon wees van die Parlement van die Republiek van Suid-Afrika, in die ou sowel as in die nuwe bedeling; in ‘n tydperk toe ‘n baie belangrike deel, indien nie dié belangrikste gedeelte van die geskiedenis van ons land geskryf is. Ek is dankbaar dat ek deel kon wees van die nasiebouproses en ‘n beskeie bydra kon maak aan die span wat die bousstene van ons nasie in plek moes plaas; dat ek ‘n medereisiger kon wees op die reis na vryheid en demokrasie in ons land.

Dit was voorwaar ‘n opwindende tydperk in my lewe en een wat nou vir my ten einde loop en waarvoor ek die Almagtige Vader dank dat dit vir my beskore was om dit so lank te kon doen. Dit was vir my ‘n aangename ervaring om soveel wonderlike vriende te kon maak, nie net uit die geledere van my eie party nie, maar ook uit die geledere van die regerende party en die ander partye. Ek wil graag my hartlike dank aan u almal oordra vir die welwillendheid wat u teenoor my getoon het.

Baie van u was ook op een of ander stadium ‘n pasiënt van my en ook teenoor u is ek dankbaar dat u my belangstelling in my beroep lewendig gehou het. Ek belowe die mans wat hier is vandag, ek sal nooit vir iemand vertel vir wie ek voorskrifte vir Viagra geskryf het nie. [Gelag.]

Ek het ook groot waardering vir die bekwame en onpartydige wyse waarmee die voorsittende beamptes en voorsitters van komitees die sittings en vergaderings hanteer het.

Ek gaan u werklik almal baie mis. Baie dankie. [Applous.] (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)

[Since this is the last time that I shall be speaking in this House, because I am retiring from politics, please allow me the opportunity to say a few more words.

I am very grateful that I could be a member of Parliament of the Republic of South Africa, in the old as well as the new dispensation; during a period when an important part, if not the most important part of the history of our country was written. I am grateful that I could be part of the nation-building processs and could make a humble contribution to the team who had to put the building bricks of our nation in place; that I could be a fellow traveller on the journey to freedom and democracy in our country.

It was indeed an exciting period in my life and one which is ending for me now and for which I thank Almighty God that I was able to do so for so long. It was a pleasant experience to be able to make such wonderful friends, not only from the ranks of my own party, but also from the ranks of the ruling party and the other parties. I would like to express my thanks to everyone for the goodwill you showed to me. Many of you were also patients of mine some or other stage and I am also grateful to you that you kept my interest in my profession alive. I promise the men who are here today that I will never tell anyone for whom I wrote prescriptions for Viagra. [Laughter.]

I also have great appreciation for the competent and impartial way in which the presiding officers and chairpersons of committees dealt with the sittings and meetings.

I am truly going to miss all of you. Thank you very much. [Applause.]]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr M J Mahlangu): Thank you, Dr Nel. I think we’ll make the appropriate speeches next week when we bid you farewell. We are not making such speeches now, but I think members will share your view when they make their farewell speeches next week.

Ms E C GOUWS: Thank you, Deputy Chair.

Dr Nel het ons nou almal omtrent in trane, maar ek sal darem graag wil weet vir wie sommige voorskrifte gegee is! [Gelag.] [Dr Nel now has just about all of us in tears, but I would nevertheless like to know to whom certain prescriptions were given. [Laughter.]]

Hon Chairperson, the hon Minister of Social Development, Dr Zola Skweyiya, is a Minister who cares. He has demonstrated this special attitude towards the poor and children so many times. I laud him for this. I can recall many occasions when the elderly and pensioners were maltreated and at the wrong end of receiving and the Minister acted speedily and visited those places to take cognisance of the incidents. I’m speaking of remote areas in the Eastern Cape here, and it shows his concern for the poor and his commitment.

Early in November last year, an article in the Sunday newspaper reported this: “Minister steps in to help Aids orphans”. The Minister gave permission for five orphans to receive antiretroviral treatment, despite the fact that the Government at that time had yet to approve the plan to supply the drugs in public hospitals and clinics. At least five children were given the opportunity which thousands were being denied, thanks to the Minister of Social Development.

In his reaction on this swift decision he said: “Children need to be assisted as fast as possible to get whatever help is available”. The slogan of this Government is, “Push back the frontiers of poverty”, and the man in the trenches of this war is Minister Skweyiya.

I don’t envy him his task. His assessment of the work is the right one. Please go ahead, Minister. When it comes to legislation, the Minister needs to step in and get things straight and legislation on standard. Today we are debating Bills which affect poor people, elderly people, children, people with disabilities and children needing foster care - very important Bills.

We are gravely alarmed at the haste with which these Bills are being handled. Serious issues are overlooked and rushed through Parliament. Why? Have the coming elections something to do with this feverish haste? Serious issues are overlooked. We turn out flawed legislation because we are pressurised. When the Bill reaches us, the select committee, it is virtually at the end of the legislation chain. Now, at this late stage, we still have to cope, not only with technicalities, but also with other serious issues.

The Alliance for Children’s Entitlement to Social Security, Cosatu, Nehawu, the Catholics Bishops’ Conference and the South African Council of Churches all implored Government to slow down with these Bills. They all wanted Parliament to engage with the Taylor report in order first to formulate a comprehensive social security policy and then to draft legislation. The Taylor report, on which the Government has expended thousands, is simply ignored.

The Social Assistance Bill fails to deal with the problem of child-headed households, refugees, street children and extending the age for children to receive child support grants. Then we also have this big problem with service delivery. There is no guarantee that this proposed agency will improve service delivery to the beneficiaries.

It is time that we take notice of the Taylor report. Then we might transform the present and protect the future with things like improved transfer of payments that will assist and improve delivery to the most vulnerable people in our society. Because these Bills are being rushed through with alarming speed while bypassing the recommendations of the Taylor report, my party cannot support them. I thank you.

Mrs J N VILAKAZI: Hon Chairperson, hon Minister and hon members, the KZN province supports the Social Assistance Bill. However, the South African Social Security Agency Bill is not supported.

The Social Assistance Bill and the South African Social Security Agency Bill are some of the most important pieces of legislation that have been brought to this House for our consideration. I say this because of the impact of these Bills on the lives of millions of our people at grass-roots level, especially the most vulnerable sectors of our communities, namely children, women and older persons.

It is a fact that the majority of our people still live under very poor conditions and that, as the state, we have a responsibility of providing our people with social security and social assistance services, so as to improve the lives of these poorest of the poor in our communities.

My province acknowledges the fact that there have been some weaknesses in the administration and payment of social assistance grants, which have resulted in some persons not receiving assistance timeously assistance. We also acknowledge the reasoning behind the improvement of service delivery and the efforts being made to ensure that the rightful beneficiaries of the social assistance benefits get their assistance in time.

However, we are concerned with the manner in which it is envisaged achieving this goal. The KZN province is of the opinion that the powers of the provinces will somehow be reduced unnecessarily with the establishment of the agency. We believe that the people on the ground work very well with people within their reach and therefore we cannot imagine how it will be possible for an agency operating at a national level to effectively enhance service delivery at grass-roots level.

As I stated earlier, these Bills are very important pieces of legislation; they are also very critical as they directly affect the people in the provinces with regard to the powers that are now being reversed to the national Government. It is worrying, though, the manner in which these Bills were rushed to the provinces for their consideration and the timeframe given to them to make their decision.

The KwaZulu-Natal province is of the opinion that private enterprises would deliver better services than the state agency, as it is well known that the agency will utilise seconded and transferred public servants who are already within the Public Service. These are the very personnel who have been carrying out service delivery over the years and who will carry on with the alleged inefficiency in service delivery, unless human resource problems within the Department of Social Development, in various provinces, are addressed rather than an agency being formed that will work with the very same people who have human resource problems that have not been properly addressed. This is our main concern.

I have mentioned our concerns as a province. We support the Social Assistance Bill, but do not support the South African Social Security Agency Bill. I thank you.

Ms M P THEMBA: Chairperson, hon Minister, hon members, when we came into power in 1994, this department inherited a social security system that had been severely fragmented by the DA. We had a situation in which not only were there 14 different systems divided along racial lines, but there were enormous discrepancies among payments to beneficiaries. Whites got the most and others got progressively less, depending on what racial group you belonged to. That’s why the DA today can’t support this Bill. Since then, it has been the task of the Department of Social Development to progressively realise an equitable system of grant distribution with a bias towards those who are the most needy.

Every year, since 1994, there has been improvement in the social security system, but not always without hiccups. However, without fail, it has been the ANC-led Government’s goal to eradicate the inhumanity experienced by the poorest of the poor and to restore the dignity of all our citizens.

We have always understood that our apartheid legacy meant that we had to overcome enormous backlogs in service delivery and that we would have to deliver a service not to mere hundreds but hundreds of thousands of beneficiaries who were ignored or underserviced by the past regime. We had to face divergent imbalances that included discrimination in terms of race, gender and geographic and provincial lines. Our focused attention on the big picture meant that we had to intensively interrogate the system that we inherited and work systematically to create a new system that would cater for all divergent needs of our people.

Sometimes, in our attempts to bring about change too quickly, we inadvertently disadvantaged those very people we were trying to assist. Some may remember the fallout this department experienced when it required all grant recipients to reregister so that they could be taken up in a new system that required bar-coded IDs. Even now, the department faces a constant struggle with the Department of Home Affairs in making sure that the potential grant recipients receive their IDs timeously. To a large extent, the interdepartmental co-operation has been successful but there remains ample room for improvement, especially regarding the provision of sustainable and reliable service in remote rural areas. ID drives will continue regardless of whether it is election time or not.

We have also seen provinces struggle to cope financially with the large intakes of new grant recipients, capacity problems, cash-in-transit heists, corrupt officials defrauding the system and poor delivery by those who have signed service level agreements with provinces. What all this has meant is that the Minister and the department have had to redouble their efforts to bring about an equitable system of service delivery that will apply evenly to all provinces, without exception.

We are confident, however, that the establishment of a unitary social security agency will go a long way towards addressing the problems of mismanagement, corruption and abuse within the current provision of social grants.

One of the core functions of the agency will be that of financial accountability. Part of the implementation of this requirement is for the agency to have centralised reconciliation and management of the payment of transfer of funds from a nationally maintained database of beneficiaries.

The Social Assistance Bill, besides providing a succinct policy statement on the provision of grants with strict adherence to the principle of Batho Pele, also introduces some key innovations, not the least of which is to prescribe minimum norms and standards for the delivery of social assistance. We are particularly pleased that this Bill will establish an inspectorate for social assistance so that this department will be able to detect corrupt practices before they have a chance to take hold.

Our interactions in the provinces have indicated that the issue of procuratorship was a grey area which the moneylenders and the like exploited by declaring themselves eligible to collect pensions on behalf of beneficiaries. The new provision within the Social Assistance Bill contains a stringent set of guidelines that must be adhered to before an individual can be declared a bona fide procurator. This is yet another way to eliminate fraudulent practices.

Both the Social Assistance Bill and the South African Social Security Agency Bill, we believe, will endeavour to ensure that we eliminate the need for long queues, which often result in some pensioners dying in queues before they receive their grants. We will, hopefully, also reduce the unnecessarily long waiting period for people who have applied for grants but have not yet received their grant payments. Hopefully, in this way we will ensure that the principles of Batho Pele become the blueprint for the delivery of social grants.

The ANC supports both of these Bills. I thank you. [Applause.]

Mnr F ADAMS: Mnr die Voorsitter, Ministers en lede van die Huis, die NNP glo dat Suid-Afrika ‘n doeltreffende en effektiewe maatskaplike welsynstelsel nodig het aangesien maatskaplike dienste in ‘n land soos ons s’n met sy grootskaalse armoede en gebrek aan geleenthede die enigste lewensaar is vir baie. Suid-Afrikaners wat dit egter kan bekostig om voorsiening te maak vir hulle eie welsyn behoort aangemoedig te word om dit wel te doen.

Middeletoetse behoort ook aangepas te word aangesien die huidige stelsel individue beperk tot die bestaansminimum ongeag hulle eie pogings om ‘n inkomste te verdien en hulle eie omstandighede te verbeter. Sodoende het dit eintlik ‘n onnodige uitwerking; die presiese teenoorgestelde van wat nodig is om selfversorging aan te moedig.

Die NNP is ook van mening dat die vlak van maatskaplike toelaes goed deurdink moet word om te verseker dat dit die gewenste uitwerking het. In gevalle waar toelaes toegestaan word aan groepe buiten bejaardes, gestremdes en die jeug moet ‘n toelaagstelsel individue nie ontmoedig om werk te soek nie, moet dit beskou word as ‘n tydelike maatreël om definitiewe doelwitte binne bepaalde tydperke te bereik, moet dit tot voordeel van die ontvanger se huishouding gebruik word en moet dit op die lange duur bydra tot die vermindering van langtermyn-afhanklikes van die fiskus.

Die maatskaplike samehang van gesinne en gemeenskappe behoort altyd die belangrikste oorweging te wees in ‘n beleid oor maatskaplike ontwikkeling. Nie net moet die maatskaplike behoeftes van kinders aangespreek word deur byvoorbeeld toegang tot kindersorgtoelaes te vereenvoudig en deur meer aandag aan straatkinders te gee nie, maar die spesiale behoeftes van bejaardes en gestremdes behoort ook meer prioriteitaandag te geniet.

Ons glo dat hierdie wetgewing weer eens ‘n poging is om Suid-Afrika ‘n beter plek te maak om in te lewe - ek dink dit is wat die DA nie verstaan nie! - deur eerlik te wees wanneer ons vind dat die prosesse van die Regering nie werk nie en dan dapper genoeg te wees om die nodige te doen om dit te korrigeer en die prosesse te verbeter. Ons wil ons dank uitspreek teenoor almal wat bygedra het tot hierdie wetgewing om ‘n beter lewe vir almal in Suid-Afrika te skep; ‘n beter plek en ‘n beter lewe.

Die NNP steun albei hierde wetsontwerpe. Dankie. [Applous.] (Translation of Afrikaans speech follows.)

[Mr F ADAMS: Mr Chairman, Ministers and members of the House, the NNP believes that South Africa needs an efficient and effective social welfare system since welfare services in a country such as ours with its large- scale poverty and lack of opportunities are the only fountain of life for many. However, South Africans who can afford to provide for their own welfare should be encouraged to do so.

Means tests should also be adapted since the present system limits individuals to the subsistence level regardless of their own efforts to earn their own income and improve their own circumstances. As such it actually has an unnecessary result; the exact opposite of what is necessary to encourage self-sufficiency.

The NNP is also of the opinion that the level of social grants should be well considered to ensure that they have the desired effect. In cases where grants are allocated to groups apart from the aged, the disabled and the youth, a system of grants should not discourage individuals from looking for work, should be regarded as a temporary measure to reach specific goals within specific periods, should be used to the benefit of the household of the recipient and should contribute in the long term to the reduction of long-term dependants on the fiscus.

The social cohesion of families and communities should always be the most important consideration in a policy on social development. Not only should the social needs of children be addressed by, for example, simplifying access to child care grants and by giving more attention to street children, but the special needs of the aged and the disabled should also receive more priority attention.

We believe that this legislation is once again an effort to make South Africa a better place to live in - I think this is what the DA does not understand! - by being honest when we find that the processes of the Government do not work and then being courageous enough to do the necessary to correct it and to improve the processes. We want to express our thanks to everyone who contributed to this legislation to create a better life for everyone in South Africa; a better place and a better life.

The NNP supports both these Bills. Thank you. [Applause.]]

Ms N P KHUNOU: Chairperson, hon Minister and members, as the ANC, we have always understood that this Government’s task is to ensure that the most vulnerable are given access to whatever the state can provide in order to relieve them of the burden of poverty and hardship.

We have seen, in the last 10 years, that there has been a concerted effort to widen the safety net over those who need help the most. The primary manner in which we ensure that sufficient attention is given to the alleviation of social ills and the alleviation of poverty is by paying close attention to social spending.

Thus far, every new budget has brought about either an increase in the actual number of people that have been taken up in the system or an increase in the grant amount allocated to the individual recipient, and sometimes both.

Last year we saw poverty-stricken children being taken up in the system in that the age for the child support grant was increased incrementally to 14 years, over a three-year period. These increases in the budget on social spending have not been insignificant amounts. By anyone’s calculation, even the DA’s, an increase from R10 billion to R34,8 billion is an enormous increase.

This is exactly what the Department of Social Development did between 1994 and 2003 and, still, the department’s budget continues to grow. The department’s latest budget, thanks to the Minister of Finance’s Budget Speech on Wednesday, 18 February 2004, has substantially increased provincial social grants and welfare spending to R48 billion, to further support this Government in its endeavours to roll back the frontiers of poverty.

I am sure that our grandparents and those receiving disability grants welcome the increase to R740, but once the money has been allocated it is imperative that provinces implement effective and efficient delivery of these services.

This select committee has, in the past and especially after oversight visits have been undertaken, emphasised that the social security system needs an overhaul in order to ensure that our country’s beneficiaries have access to their grants in a dignified and humane manner.

We have even, in terms of our last oversight report in 2003 which outlined the difficulties that the Eastern Cape experienced, reiterated that the most vulnerable people, the grant recipients, need to be protected from unscrupulous officials, loan sharks and other shysters out there who attempt to con our communities out of their money.

We are, indeed, horrified at some of the atrocious practices that we witnessed happening at grass-roots level, in which our grandparents were robbed of their IDs and their pension cards, and threatened by all kinds of people converging on the pension payout points on payout day.

The Social Assistance and South African Social Security Agency Bills have been formulated in such a way that they bring relief with regard to a number of problems that have been experienced in provinces in order to bring about the efficient roll-out of grant applications and grant payouts.

After assessing some of the concerns that all stakeholders have voiced over the years, these two Bills seek to provide for the social assistance function to shift from the provincial sphere of government to national Government.

The Social Assistance Bill, in particular, seeks to create norms and standards in the provision of services which will apply to every nook and cranny of this country. So, if a person applies for social assistance in the Western Cape and another applies in Mpumalanga, they will receive exactly the same service and treatment.

The South African Social Security Agency Bill, on the other hand, seeks to bring about a national agency that is tasked with the responsibility of administering all the grants in an efficient and humane manner. This will obviate the prevailing situation in which the payment of grants is performed by various subcontractors engaged by different provinces. This has resulted in an uneven standard of service delivery and, therefore, inconsistencies in the administration of payments between provinces.

To emphasise what the chairperson alluded to earlier, we remain concerned that the administration of services for those children who have begun to take on the responsibilities of adulthood before they are ready to do so is still lagging behind.

We argued quite extensively that their plight becomes a national priority and we see that these two Bills attempt to remedy the situation. It is particularly heart-warming to see that a great deal of thought has come from provinces which experienced the needs of these child-headed households personally, and have argued vociferously that the age factor for the receipt of grants be closely monitored.

Some have declared that, in their experience, children as young as eight to 12 years have assumed the responsibility of parenting younger siblings and should, therefore, qualify for a social grant. Nonetheless, the age that the committee finally settled on was accepted as a good start in addressing the needs of this fast-growing, vulnerable sector of our population.

The ANC supports both the Social Assistance and the South African Social Security Agency Bills with provincial amendments. I thank you. [Applause.]

The MINISTER OF SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT: Thank you, Madam Chair. I think, first of all, I would like to thank the House for the way in which it has dealt with these Bills which, as far as the Government is concerned, will become the cornerstone, basically, of our social security and social assistance to the most vulnerable members of our society. I fully understand the concerns that have been raised, but I might not necessarily agree with them.

The realities are quite clear. These Bills have been at the forefront and have been discussed for the past four years. In fact, the Children’s Bill, which is not here and which the lady was complaining about, has been around for the past seven years. Civil society as a whole has been part and parcel of that.

In fact, the four Bills have come together as a package. I think, with these Bills, we were of the impression - and we still continue to believe this - that some of the ills that exist, basically, in our society and in our social security system could have been and must have been resolved to a certain extent, although not completely. As such, they become the basis around which the whole social and comprehensive social security of this country could begin from.

As such, I do agree with and support what the majority of this House has been saying about them. Theirs is a cry that is coming from the heart of the poorest of the poor. Many people have been complaining for such a long time about the way in which the pensions and grants have been administered in almost all provinces.

When we answer these issues, Mrs Gouws, we should not, hon Gouws, forget where we come from, because in the final analysis the question of pension and social security in our Constitution is a national function and it has been a national function throughout. It was only changed as a compromise in 1994-95 by the Government of National Unity, led by former President Mandela, to accommodate the cries and concerns of the IFP - the Inkatha Freedom Party - and, to a certain extent, the NP in KwaZulu-Natal and in the Western Cape.

In view of the fact that we were then all in one Government, we thought that “Okay, if they are crying we’ll give them something, and we did as the ANC give this to them to administer. I hope you note that. You can ask his excellency, the Minister of Home Affairs; he knows that exactly. Mr Ngubane knows that exactly. They were part and parcel of the Government at the time of which I was part and parcel.

For the DA not to support that, I am not suprised personally. They have no sympathy whatsoever for the poor of this country. [Applause.] To them they are just something to use - just to give something to the poor natives of South Africa. They just want the vote of the native and then misuse the native. [Applause.]

So, in reality, they have no feelings whatsoever for our people, the poorest of the poor. Nothing whatsoever. You can see that exactly in the attitude of their leader towards their own people as such. [Interjections.] The way he behaves when he gets to Soweto - look at him on TV. Look at Tony Leon and you will see how he behaves when he comes to our communities.

So whatever she might be saying, I know it was not written by her. She was told to do that. [Interjections.] [Applause.] I know we can quote you, and I can tell you where the orders came from. [Interjections.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! Hon members, order! Order, members!

The MINISTER OF SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT: But what worries me most is the position that has been taken by your ally, the IFP - the Inkatha Freedom Party. I ask myself, ``Why?’’ I thought when we came to Government and took the IFP with us that we stood together in order to champion the cause of the poor. I thought so, and I am wondering whether the IFP has lost its soul to the DA in this process.

I really find it very hard to believe that the IFP here can come and say that it does not support a measure that is going to alleviate the conditions of the poor in this country. I find it hard to believe that. [Interjections.] Who thinks for the IFP now? Because it cannot be those people, those children I find walking around Pietermaritzburg, in Richmond and in the southern parts of KwaZulu-Natal, fatherless and uncared for. It cannot be. Surely, it can’t be them? Surely, the IFP cannot be voicing the feelings of traditional leaders when it comes here and says it does not …

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Hon Minister, there is a point of order.

The MINISTER OF SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT: Surely? I find it unacceptable and really unprincipled of the IFP.

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Hon Minister, could you take your seat? The MINISTER OF SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT: I will.

Mr M J BHENGU: Ngiyabonga Mhlalingaphambili. Ngithi angisho mama ukuthi isifundazwe ethe ayiwufuni lo Mthethosivivinywa. Hhayi ukuthi i-IFP, bekuhlangene onke amaqembu. [Thank you, hon Chairperson. Let me explain that it is the province that rejects the Bill and not the IFP. All the parties took the decision together.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Is that a point of order? Do you think that’s a point of order?

Mr M J BHENGU: [Inaudible.]

The MINISTER OF SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT: … [Inaudible.] The ANC … [Inaudible] … in the province does support this fully, and the IFP cannot come and say it does not support … I can even tell you why the IFP is refusing the agency. Do you want me to tell you? [Interjections.] I can. I can. But, in the final analysis, I am saying that I am surprised at the position being taken by the IFP on this. The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Hon Minister, there is another point of order.

Mrs J N VILAKAZI: Thank you, Chairperson. I am the one who delivered the speech, and the speech I delivered on behalf of the KwaZulu-Natal province, which is in coalition with … [Interjections.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Hon member, could you take your seat? Could you take your seat, hon member?

Mrs J N VILAKAZI: … [Inaudible.] He says that it’s IFP, IFP, IFP.

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Mrs Vilakazi, that is not a point of order.

Mrs J N VILAKAZI: I delivered the speech here. [Interjections.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Mrs Vilakazi! [Interjections.] Members, order! [Interjections.]

Mrs J N VILAKAZI: I’m speaking to the Chairperson, not you.

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: MmaVilakazi, take your seat. That is not a point of order. [Interjections.] Mrs Vilakazi, if you want to go out, please go out.

Mrs J N VILAKAZI: I am not going to go out. [Interjections.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Continue, hon Minister.

The MINISTER OF SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT: In reality, I want to say that there are thousands of people in KwaZulu-Natal who cannot access grants at the present moment. The ANC, from 8 January, spent about three whole days on this and the majority of the people were complaining, basically, about their inability to access the grants that they were entitled to.

As a government and as a national department we have to use the few resources we have in order to reach out to those people, simply because the budget sits in Ulundi and the ordinary people cannot access it. With these Bills that will not happen again. We will be able to say to uMaKhumalo laphaya eRichmond [MaKhumalo in Richmond] - who said that she is 68 and can’t get it, simply because akazwani nozibanibani [she doesn’t get along with so and so] - “This is your constitutional right and nobody can stop you from exercising your right.” These Bills are meant to do that.

In the final analysis, I think this is a move we should have made ages ago. Basically, as I said, we bent the rules to accommodate the IFP in 1994-95 in order for them to be part and parcel of the government then.

I can say here that there are other reasons I can mention as to why the IFP is reluctant to support this Bill. The reasons given here really hold no water whatsoever. I think the efficiency of the whole system will basically be enhanced through this agency. The national Government will rightly be able to do what it ought to do to resolve the problems of the poorest of the poor.

So I am very grateful to this House, basically, for the manner in which it has handled these Bills. The process is about nothing but ensuring that the issue of grants and their distribution alleviate the poverty that exists in our country and gives power to the national Government to intervene as much as possible, without being forced to stroke the egos of individuals or provinces. That is exactly what we want. I think that with this we will be able to do that.

We hope that when we come back, if we do come back, we will be able to pass the two other Bills that are meant, Mrs Gouws, to look into the question of child-headed families. I’m sure you don’t know about them, nor do you feel for them. [Interjections.] But there are children out there who live without mothers and fathers. With these Bills we are going to pass, we mean to assist them - and accelerate our ability to assist - so that they can lead normal lives like any other South African. That we are going to do in April, as quickly as possible. Thank you, Madam. [Applause.]

Debates concluded.

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: I shall now put the question in respect of the first Order …

Ms L JACOBUS: Thank you, Chairperson. I did write you a note earlier on. I just want clarity on this matter in that the Bills that appear on our monitors are not the Bills as we amended them. My assumption is that when we debate a Bill, we debate the Bill as it is amended, and that is the version that should appear before us. I have scrolled through both of the Bills and they do not include the amendments. So I just want clarity on that. Thank you.

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Hon members and hon Jacobus, the explanation from the Table is that this is a section 76 Bill and, in terms of that section, the Bill has already been amended. That is why the number has changed to Bill 51D. So it has incorporated the amendments. We are actually voting on Bill 51D, that is the amended version.

I shall now put the question in respect of the first Order of the Day - the South African Social Security Agency Bill. The question is that the Bill be agreed to. As the decision is dealt with in terms of section 65 of the Constitution, I shall first ascertain whether all delegation heads are present in the Chamber to cast their provinces’ votes. Are all delegation heads present? Yes. In accordance with Rule 71, I shall first allow provinces the opportunity to make their declarations of vote, if they so wish.

Declaration of vote:

Ms B THOMSON: Thank you, Chair. I happen to be the leader of the KZN delegation, but … ngifuna ukukubeka nje kule Ndlu kucace ukuthi, yebo, igunya esilinikwe yisifundazwe elokuthi singavumelani ne-Social Security Agency Bill, kodwa kufanele kucace ukuthi thina njenge ANC, siyavumelana noMthethosivivinywa. Kodwa-ke phela ngoba sihlanganiswa igunya esilinikwe yisifundazwe - ngisho ukuthi kuhle kucace futhi kwazeke ukuthi ngempela obani laba abangafuni ukuthi siqhubeke nokwenza izimpilo zabantu zibe ngcono. [I would like to express very clearly that our mandate from the province is that we do not support the South African Social Security Agency Bill, but I also want to say eloquently that we as the ANC support the Bill. But, since we are bound by the mandate of the province I want it to be clear who these people are who oppose our efforts to create a better life for the people.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Hon Thomson, I just want to remind you that this is a section 76 Bill and therefore voting is done in terms of the province, not in terms of the party. Even if the ANC agrees in KwaZulu- Natal, you are bound by the decision of the province. If you could just remember that. Thank you.

We shall now proceed to voting on the question. I shall do so in alphabetical order per province. Delegation heads must please indicate to the Chair whether they vote in favour of, or against, or abstain from voting. Eastern Cape?

Ms P C P MAJODINA: Sihlalo obekekileyo, iMpuma Koloni iyixhasa ngokupheleleyo yomibini le Mithetho iYilwayo ngoba iza kuphucula impilo yabantu bakowethu. Enkosi. [Hon Chairperson, the Eastern Cape supports both Bills because they are going to improve the lives of our people. Thank you.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Free State?

Mr T S SETONA: Free State votes in favour of both Bills.

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: I said the first Order of the Day. Gauteng?

Ms D M RAMODIBE: Chair, Gauteng supports the Bill.

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: KwaZulu-Natal? Ms B THOMSON: IkwaZulu-Natal iyayiphikisa. [KwaZulu-Natal opposes it.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Limpopo?

Kgoshi M L MOKOENA: Re a dumela, Mmarena. [We support, Madam Chair.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Mpumalanga?

Ms M P THEMBA: IMpumalanga iyasekela. [Mpumalanga supports.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Northern Cape?

Mr G A LUCAS: Northern Cape ke wa rona. [Northern Cape supports.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: North West?

Rev P MOATSHE: North West e a emella. [North West supports.] We support the contract with the people of South Africa.

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Western Cape?

Mr M L FRANSMAN (Western Cape): Western Cape supports the Bill.

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Eight provinces have voted in favour of the Bill. I therefore declare the Bill agreed to in terms of section 65 of the Constitution. [Applause.]

Bill accordingly agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! I shall now put the question in respect of the second Order of the Day - the Social Assistance Bill. The question is that the Bill be agreed to. As the decision is dealt with in terms of section 65 of the Constitution, I have satisfied myself that the delegation heads are present.

In accordance with Rule 71, I shall first allow provinces the opportunity to make their declarations of vote, if they so wish. We shall now proceed to voting on the question. I shall do so in alphabetical order per province. Delegation heads must please indicate to the Chair whether they vote in favour of, or against, or abstain from voting. Eastern Cape?

Ms P C P MAJODINA: Sihlalo, iMpuma Koloni imi ngxi, ayihexi. Iyawuxhasa ke. [Chairperson, the Eastern Cape is firm in its support for the Bill.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Free State?

Mr T S SETONA: Free State votes in favour, Chair.

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Gauteng?

Ms Q D MAHLANGU: Gauteng e a e tshegetsa. [Gauteng supports.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: KwaZulu-Natal?

Ms B THOMSON: We support.

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Limpopo? Kgoshi M L MOKOENA: Ha wu seketela hi nga kanakani mhani. [We undoubtely support, Madam Chair.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Mpumalanga?

Ms M P THEMBA: Mpumalanga supports.

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Northern Cape?

Mr M A SULLIMAN: Siyavuma. [We support.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: North West?

Rev P MOATSHE: Hayi, siyavuma. [We support.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Western Cape?

Mr M L FRANSMAN (Western Cape): Ons steun. [We support.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: All provinces have voted in favour. I therefore declare the Bill agreed to in terms of section 65 of the Constitution. [Applause.] Bill accordingly agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Hon Minister, thank you very much for making the lives of poor South Africans very much easier. [Applause.]

CONSIDERATION OF REPORT OF SELECT COMMITTEE ON LAND AND ENVIRONMENTAL
 AFFAIRS - EXCLUSION OF LAND FROM AUGRABIES WATERFALL NATIONAL PARK

Mnr M A SULLIMAN: Agb Voorsitter, die Riemvasmaak-gemeenskap het ‘n ryk, maar hartseer geskiedenis. Die inwoners het bestaan uit verskeie etniese groepe waaronder Xhosas, Namas en die sogenaamde kleurlinge wat vreedsaam saamgewoon het onder die leiding van die Nama-hoofman … (Translation of Afrikaans paragraph follows.)

[Mr M A SULLIMAN: Hon Chairperson, the Riemvasmaak community has a rich, but sad history. The residents consisted of various ethnic groups, among which Xhosas, Namas and the so-called coloured people, who lived together in harmony under the leadership of the Nama chief …]

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! Hon Sulliman, can you just hold on. Can we allow the audience in the gallery to leave quietly, please?

Mnr M A SULLIMAN: Dankie, Voorsitter.

Die Riemvasmaak-gemeenskap het ‘n ryk, maar hartseer geskiedenis. Die inwoners het bestaan uit verskeie etniese groepe waaronder Xhosas, Namas en die sogenaamde kleurlinge wat vreedsaam saamgewoon het onder leiding van die Nama-hoofman en verteenwoordigers van die verskillende groepe. [Tussenwerpsels.]

Gedurende 1973-74 is die destydse inwoners ingevolge die vorige regering se apartheidsbeleid verskuif na Namibië en die Oos-Kaap. Die SA Weermag het Riemvasmaak vanaf 1973 tot met die oorgang na die nuwe demokratiese regering in 1994 as ‘n opleidingsterrein gebruik. SA Nasionale Parke het ook ‘n deel van die gebied, bekend as Melkbosrand, by die Augrabies- waterval Nasionale Park ingelyf. Hierdie 4 000 ha is aangewend as teelgebied vir die Namibiese swartrenoster.

Gedurende 1993 het pogings begin om die Riemvasmakers terug te kry op hulle grond. In Februarie 1994 is besluit om die volle 74 000 ha grond aan die Riemvasmakers terug te gee. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)

[Mnr M A SULLIMAN: Thank you, Chairperson.

The Riemvasmaak community has a rich, but sad history. The residents consisted of various ethnic groups, among which Xhosas, Namas and the so- called coloured people, who lived together in harmony under the leadership of the Nama chief and representatives of the various groups. [Interjections.]

During 1973-74 the residents at the time were moved to Namibia and the Eastern Cape in terms of the previous government’s apartheid policy. The SA Defence Force used Riemvasmaak as a training area from 1973 up to the transition to the new democratic Government in 1994. SA National Parks also incorporated a part of the area, known as Melkbosrand, unto the Augrabies Waterfall National Park. This 4 000 ha was used as a breeding area for the Namibian black rhinoceros.

During 1993 efforts were embarked on to bring the people of Riemvasmaak back to their land. In February 1994 it was decided to give the full 74 000 ha back to the people of Riemvasmaak.]

Chair, people are making a terrible noise here in the benches.

Die Riemvasmaak-projek was een van die eerste grondherstelprojekte en is as ‘n presidensiële loodsprojek geregistreer. Dit het as sodanig ‘n baie hoë politieke profiel gehad. Teen die einde van 1994 en deur die loop van 1995 het die meeste Riemvasmakers na hulle grond teruggekeer.

Sowat twee derdes van die Riemvasmakers is Namas wat by die sendingstasie woon, terwyl die Xhosas meesal by die nedersetting in die Vredesvallei langs die Oranjerivier woon. In 2002 kry die mense van Riemvasmaak kaart en transport vir hulle woonerwe - waarlik ‘n mylpaal nadat hulle so lank grondloos was. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)

[The Riemvasmaak project was one of the first land reform projects and was registered as a presidential pilot project. As such it had a very high political profile. By the end of 1994 and during 1995 most of the people of Riemvasmaak had returned to their land.

Approximately two thirds of the people of Riemvasmaak are Namas living at the mission station, while the Xhosas are mostly living at the settlement in Vredesvallei on the Orange River. In 2002 the people from Riemvasmaak got tenure to their plots - truly a milestone after they had been landless for so long.]

The board of SA National Parks decided at its meeting in September 1998 to recommend that the remainder of farm 498 Melkbosrand be excluded from the Augrabies Waterfall National Park so that ownership of the community can be restored unconditionally, whereafter they can consider the future options of the land. It should also be taken into account that Riemvasmaak had already built chalets for tourists and had established some 4x4 trails, and new farming and mining initiatives had been undertaken to provide jobs for the community.

It should also be noted that there is already a grape producing project in the area for poverty relief, and currently roads are being constructed whilst the electricity and water supply is being upgraded. Allow me to quote from our charter:

We, the people of South Africa, declare for all our country and the world to know: that South Africa belongs to all who live in it, black and white, and that no government can justly claim authority unless it is based on the will of all the people; that our people have been robbed of their birthright to land, liberty and peace by a form of government founded on injustice and inequality … the land shall be shared among those who work it!

In conclusion, I would like to recommend in terms of section 2(3) of the National Parks Act, Act 57 of 1976, that the remainder of farm 498 Melkbosrand, in extent 4137 ha, be excluded from the Augrabies Waterfall National Park by resolution of Parliament. I so move. Thank you, Chair. [Applause.]

Debate concluded.

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: I shall now put the question. The question is that the report be adopted. As the decision is dealt with in terms of section 65 of the Constitution, I shall first ascertain whether delegation heads are present in the Chamber to pass their provinces’ votes. They are all present. In accordance with Rule 71, I shall first allow provinces an opportunity to make their declarations of vote if they so wish. We shall now proceed to the voting on the question. I shall do so in alphabetical order. Delegation heads must please indicate to the Chair whether they vote in favour of, or against, or abstain from voting. Eastern Cape?

Ms P C P MAJODINA: Kapa Botjhabela e a dumela. [Eastern Cape supports.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Free State?

Mr T S SETONA: Free State votes in favour.

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Gauteng?

Ms D M RAMODIBE: Gauteng e a tlatsa. [Gauteng supports.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: KwaZulu-Natal?

Ms B THOMSON: KwaZulu-Natal iyaxhasa. [KwaZulu-Natal supports.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Limpopo?

Mr M I MAKOELA: I khou tenda. [It supports.] The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Mpumalanga?

Ms M P THEMBA: Mpumalanga e tsamaisana le yona. [Mpumalanga supports.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Northern Cape?

Mr M A SULLIMAN: The Northern Cape supports.

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: North West?

Rev P MOATSHE: E tsamailana le yona. [Supports.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Western Cape?

Mr K D S DURR: The Western Cape supports.

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Since all nine provinces have voted in favour, I therefore declare the report adopted.

Report accordingly adopted in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.

CONSIDERATION OF REPORT OF JOINT MONITORING COMMITTEE ON IMPROVEMENT OF QUALITY OF LIFE AND STATUS OF WOMEN - UNIFEM REPORT OF THE INDEPENDENT EXPERTS’ ASSESSMENT ON WOMEN, WAR AND PEACE

Ms M P THEMBA: Chairperson, the issue of women’s participation in peace processes has been neglected for far too long. Through our silence many of us have indirectly contributed to the continued suffering of women and children caught in the middle of vicious interstate and intrastate conflicts.

Our own continent, Africa, has seen 14 conflicts since the adoption of the Beijing Platform For Action in 1995. According to the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees, the number of displaced persons in Africa as a result of these conflicts is approximately 8 million, of which 70% to 80% are women and children.

These women and children have suffered the most flagrant violations of their persons and bodies. According to a 2002 UNIFEM report on women, war and peace, 94% of displaced households surveyed in Sierra Leone had experienced sexual assault including rape, torture and sexual slavery.

It also acknowledges widespread sexual violence in the ongoing hostilities in Algeria, Myanmar, Southern Sudan and Uganda. Some of the horrors described in the report include wombs punctured with guns, women raped and tortured in front of their husbands and children, rifles forced into their vaginas, pregnant women beaten to induce miscarriages, fetuses ripped from wombs, and women kidnapped, blindfolded and beaten on their way to work or school.

However, the extreme violence that women suffer during conflict does not arise solely out of the conditions of war. It is directly related to the violence that exists in women’s lives during peacetime.

Throughout the world, women experience violence because they are women and often because they do not have the same rights or autonomy that men have. They are subjected to gender-based persecution, discrimination and oppression, including sexual violence and slavery.

Without political rights or authority, they often have few resources. The horrors inflicted on women in conflict situations has prompted the international community to once again assess its response to this issue.

The report of the expert group on peace agreements as a means of promoting gender equality and ensuring participation - a framework for model provisions - is part of this process of evaluating our response to the suffering experienced by women in conflict resolution.

It follows on the October 2000 resolution adopted by the United Nations Security Council which provides a political framework to strengthen women’s participation in peace, in negotiations and in reconstructing their war- torn societies.

Why is it so important for women to be an integral part of the peace process? The most obvious reason is that women suffer the impact of conflict disproportionately. If they are excluded from the peace process, the provision of amnesty or impunity in peace agreements may lead to the exclusion of crimes against women, such as rape, from future criminal prosecution and punishment.

Furthermore, the limited range of issues covered in peace agreements, and which are based primarily on male experiences of conflict and their expectations for conflict resolution, could result in the exclusion of women’s physical, legal, political and economic security concerns, which will be a setback for the promotion of gender equality during the reconstruction period.

However, there is another important reason why women are the key to conflict resolution. Women’s groups and networks at grass-roots level have provided many strategies for effective conflict prevention and have worked tirelessly and courageously in preserving social order in the midst of chaos.

The women of Somalia played a critical role in brokering peace in Mogadishu in 1998. When the city was besieged by opposing militia groups, the women negotiated a ceasefire to allow men, women and children to go about their daily lives. In a similar display of iron will in 2002, the women of the DRC barricaded their menfolk inside the Inter-Congolese dialogue venue and demanded that they not leave the venue until they had signed the peace agreement.

While we have to be frank and admit that progress has been slow in engendering peace processes, there are positive signs that international organisations and national governments are taking the participation of women in peace processes seriously.

This report from the expert group is, in itself, an important milestone in that it promotes awareness of the need for women to be involved in peace processes and creates a sense of urgency to address this issue.

There are also some good examples of instances in which national governments have included women in peace processes. In Burundi, women’s participation in the peace process increased dramatically during the Arusha negotiations which began in 1999. Burundian women presented recommendations for peace and reconciliation to former President Nelson Mandela who took up a mediation role in the conflict.

Nineteen of these recommendations were included in the final peace accord, giving recognition to the centrality of women’s rights and opportunities for democracy, governance and reconstruction.

Another excellent example of the engendering of the peace process can be found in Sri Lanka where one of the most significant developments has been the establishment of a subcommittee on gender to secure the active participation of women and to incorporate women’s concerns into all structures, mechanisms and activities of the peace process.

From a South African perspective, we fully endorse the right of women to be included in peace processes. Our own transition to democracy bears testimony to the crucial role women played during the struggle for liberation and in the negotiation process.

As a member of the African Union we have also adopted the Protocol to the African Charter on Human and Peoples’ Rights on the Rights of Women in Africa. This development is indicative of the African Union’s commitment to the advancement of gender equality and the recognition of the role that women play in conflict resolution.

We must applaud the adoption of the protocol and other achievements gained by women’s groups in placing women’s issues squarely on the African and international peace and security agendas.

It is imperative that we continue to support national and international efforts to promote greater participation of women in the peace process. There can be no sustainable peace without their participation. Women need peace and peace needs women. We cannot deny the crucial role of women in bringing about sustainable peace. We therefore support the recommendations that have been made by the expert group and call upon the United Nations and national governments to translate them into practical realities for women. I thank you, Chairperson. [Applause.]

Debate concluded.

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: I shall now put the question. The question is that the report be adopted. As the decision is dealt with in terms of section 65 of the Constitution, I shall first ascertain whether all delegation heads are still present in the House, and they are.

In accordance with Rule 71, I shall first allow provinces the opportunity to make their declarations of vote if they so wish. We shall now proceed to the voting on the question. I shall do so in alphabetical order per province. Delegation heads must please indicate whether they vote in favour of, or against, or abstain. Eastern Cape?

Ms P C P MAJODINA: Eastern Cape iyaxhasa. [Eastern Cape supports.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Free State?

Mr T S SETONA: Free State agrees.

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Gauteng?

Ms D M RAMODIBE: Gauteng supports.

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: KwaZulu-Natal?

Ms B Thomson: We support.

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Limpopo?

Kgoshi M L MOKOENA: Siyaxhasa. [Support.] The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Mpumalanga?

Ms M P THEMBA: Mpumalanga e tlatsa go minagane. [Mpumalanga supports the report.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Northern Cape?

Mr M A SULLIMAN: Noord Kaap ondersteun. [Northern Cape supports.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: North West?

Rev P MOATSHE: Re a e garela. [Support.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Western Cape?

Mr K D S DURR: Wes-Kaap ondersteun. [Western Cape supports.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: All provinces have voted in favour. I therefore declare the Report adopted. [Applause.]

Report accordingly adopted in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.

       CONSIDERATION OF THIRD REPORT OF JOINT BUDGET COMMITTEE

Ms B THOMSON: Thank you, Chairperson. The third report of the committee, as you may remember, was published in the ATC on Wednesday, 26 November 2003. The report deals with national department expenditure trends extending over the period July to September 2003. In addition, the expenditure patterns of the nine provinces for the same period, that is the second quarter of the financial year ending March 2004, are elaborated on.

With reference to the national departments, the Joint Budget Committee has discovered that the Department of Education gradually decreased its expenditure in the second quarter. Its average expenditure level, however, will remain high because it continued to disburse subsidies to institutions of higher learning until November 2003. It should be noted that the Departments of Social Development and Public Enterprises had fluctuating expenditure levels during this quarter. These two departments recorded high expenditure levels during the first month of the quarter in July, drastically lower expenditure levels in August, and then increased expenditure levels again in September.

The Department of Social Development, however, explained to the committee that in the first quarter the trend of spending is higher in certain months and will be evident when the department disburses funds for its special allocations. The expenditure of the Department of Public Enterprises, however, is more prominent. It spent almost a quarter of its budget within one month, that is September 2003. This has led to a drastic increase in the overall spending of the department, which was almost 65% of its budget at the end of the second quarter.

The department has, however, explained how the apparent overspending occurred. It is as a result of the creation of two trusts to manage and direct the acquisition of shares. These shares are owned by previously disadvantaged people. The shares were acquired at the time of the listing of Telkom early this year. The lifespan of these trusts is three years. These trusts have been budgeted for in the department’s MTEF budget. In August 2003 the National Treasury approved the departmental transfer of R8,342 million in terms of the amount required to fund the trusts. This amount was paid in September 2003. It explains the seemingly excessive spending by the Department of Public Enterprises.

Just as in the first quarter, the Departments of Education, Public Enterprises and Defence and Parliament continue to be the major spenders. On the other hand, the Departments of Foreign Affairs and Communications continue to be the lower spenders, just as in the first quarter. The two departments have spent less than 30% of their budgets. Both the Departments of Foreign Affairs and of Communications were also the lowest spenders in the first quarter. The Departments of Foreign Affairs and Communications had spent less than 3% of their budgets at the end of that quarter.

The Department of Communications has constantly underspent during both quarters. The Department of Foreign Affairs has explained that the low expenditure is caused by the fact that most of its expenditure takes place abroad. Very often there is a time lapse of two to three months between the time of the expenditure abroad and financial reporting of that expenditure made here at home.

With regard to provincial spending, the average for provincial spending was less than 22% in the first quarter. This average spending is now less than 26% in the second quarter. Provinces had spent an overall average of 47% of their annual budgets by the end of the second quarter. The Western Cape, Limpopo and the North West are the only three provinces that spent less than 25% of their budgets in the current quarterly review. There is therefore only marginal underspending by provinces.

Provinces continue to underspend on their capital budgets, but spend well within their current budgets. The exception is the Eastern Cape, which has spent a sizeable portion of its capital budget. The North West, the Free State and Gauteng continue to be the low spenders of their capital budgets. Each of these provinces spent less than 30% of their capital budgets. It is encouraging to report that the overall expenditure of both the provinces and the national departments is satisfactory, especially in terms of current expenditure.

Both the national and provincial spheres of government, however, underspent on their capital budgets. The Joint Budget Committee promises to continue its investigation, or oversight role, and will report to members on a quarterly basis. Members will be kept informed of further developments that may arise from the third report.

With these few comments, I wish you all the best in the election process. Thank you. [Applause.]

Debate concluded. The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Hon Thomson, I am sure that the report does not contain what you are doing with regard to it. That concludes the debate. I shall now put the question. The question is that the report be adopted. As this is dealt with in terms of section 65, we shall now proceed to voting. In accordance with Rule 71, I shall first allow provinces an opportunity to make their declarations of vote if they so wish. We shall now proceed to the voting on the question. I shall do so in alphabetical order per province. Delegation heads must please indicate whether they vote in favour of or against, or abstain. Eastern Cape?

Ms P C P MAJODINA: In favour.

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Free State?

Mr T S SETONA: Ke a rona. [We support.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Gauteng?

Ms D M RAMODIBE: E a dumela. [We support.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: KwaZulu-Natal?

Ms B THOMSON: Si hambisana nayo. [We support.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Limpopo?

Kgoshi M L MOKOENA: Ons steun. [We support.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Mpumalanga?

Ms M P THEMBA: Ke a rona. [We support.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Northern Cape?

Mr M A SULLIMAN: We support.

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: North West?

Rev P MOATSHE: Ke a rona. [We support.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Western Cape?

Mr M L FRANSMAN (Western Cape): Ons steun. [We support.] The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: All provinces have voted in favour. I therefore declare the report adopted. [Applause.] That concludes the business of the day and the House is adjourned.

Report accordingly adopted in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.

The Council adjourned at 17:03. ____

            ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS

COMMITTEE REPORTS

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces

1. Report of the Joint Constitutional Review Committee on Annual Report, dated 18 February 2004:

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