THURSDAY, 4 NOVEMBER 2004 __

          PROCEEDINGS OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES


                                ____

The Council met at 14:10.

The Deputy Chairperson took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayers or meditation.

                TRADITIONAL HEALTH PRACTITIONERS BILL


            (Consideration of Bill and of Report thereon)

IPHINI LIKANGQONGQOSHE WEZEMPILO: Phini likaSihlalo namalungu ahloniphekile alo Mkhandlu, kuyintokozoenkulukimina namhlanje ukuthi ngibone kwenzeka lokhu okwakushiwo abantu bakithi eKliptown ngo-1955 ngenkathi bethi, “abantu bayobusa”. (Translation of isiZulu paragraph follows.)

[The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HEALTH: Deputy Chairperson and hon members of this Council, it is a great pleasure for me today to see the realisation of what was said by our people in Kliptown in 1955, when they said: “The people shall govern.”]

Let me start by expressing my sincere and humble appreciation to the NCOP for inviting me to be part of this project of taking Parliament to the people.

Kufanele siyibongele le Ndlu ngaleli gxathu esilithathile ukusondeza umbuso kubantu. Inkambiso yethu yentando yeningi imiswe yizinsika ezimbili, enye yazo ukumeleleka kwabantu kanti enye ukuzibambela mathupha kwizingxoxo nezinkambiso eziqhubekayo kwisishayamthetho.

Lokhu kokuqala bakwenza ngokuthi babambe iqhaza okhethweni lukazwelonke, bekhetha labo abazobamela ePhalamende lapho kushaywa imithetho. Kuphinde lawo malungu ePhalamende abe nomsebenzi wokuthi abuyele kubantu azobanikeza imibiko ngokuqhubeke ePhalamende. Lokhu bakwenza ngokuthi benze umsebenzi okuthiwa yi-constituency work. Abantu-ke bazibambela mathupha qobo lwabo ngokuthi lithi iPhalamende uma lidingida imithetho noma kukhona izinqumo elizithathayo libabize ngalokhu okuthiwa ama-public hearings ukuze bakwazi ukubeka izimvo zabo zokuthi bona bacabangani ngalowo mthetho noma lowo mgomo uhulumeni afuna ukuwenza. (Translation of isiZulu paragragphs follows.)

[We need to commend this House for this step it has taken in taking the government to the people. Two pillars underpin our democracy; one of them is the representation of people and the other is the participation of people in everything in the legislative assembly.

On the question of being represented, our people take part in it by voting in national elections; they elect those who are going to represent them in Parliament, where laws are passed. The members of Parliament then have a duty to go back to the people and give them a report about what is happening in Parliament. The members do this through what we call constituency work. People also take part in the drafting of legislation and in taking decisions by coming to public hearings so that they can air their views about that particular legislation or about a certain policy that the government wants to implement.]

The majority of the people in our communities are poor and they lack the means to go to our legislatures. Taking Parliament to the people strengthens the participation of the disadvantaged majority in the law- making process. The People’s Assembly that was held in October, when the national and provincial legislatures as well as Women’s and Youth Parliaments were linked up by satellite, some of the other innovative ways that our democratic Parliament has initiated to increase the possibility of the voices of the people to be heard in Parliament. Bringing Parliament to the people enables them to participate and this, as I said earlier, reinforces the call that was made almost 50 years ago in Kliptown through the Freedom Charter, which says, “the people shall govern”.

Ngimi namhlanje ngaphambi kwale Ndlu ukuzokwethula uMthethosivivinywa oqondene nalabo ababhekene nokwelapha ngokwendabuko, ama-health practitioners. NjengoMnyango wezeMpilo sinenhlanhla yokuthi sibe nethuba lokuthi ithi le Ndlu uma idingida lo Mthethosivivinywa ikhethe ukuthi lokhu izokwenzela lapha kithi KwaZulu. Lokhu ngithi kuyinhlanhla ngoba ngicabanga ukuthi abantu bakulesi sifundazwe lokhu esizokhuluma ngakho namhlanje kuyinto abakade beyilindele iminyaka ngeminyaka ukuze kuthi lokho obekuyingxenye yempilo yabo, ababekusebenzisa ukuziphilisa, namhlanje kukhonjiswe ukuthi uhulumeni wabantu uyakuhlonipha. (Translation of isiZulu paragraph follows.)

[I am standing here today in front of this House to introduce the Traditional Health Practitioners Bill, which caters for those using traditional ways of healing, the health practitioners. As Department of Health we are very fortunate to have this chance; when this House decided to discuss this Bill it chose to do so here in KwaZulu-Natal. I am saying we are fortunate because I think what we are going to talk about today is what the people of this province have been waiting for for a long time, for years and years, so that what was part of their lives, what they used to heal themselves, is shown respect by the government of the people, as it has done today.]

I hope that the people of this province and particularly the people of Empangeni are here today to be part of this historic moment.

Siyabamukela abantu bakulesi sifunda ikakhulukazi nalabo abakhona baseMpangeni. [We welcome the people of this province and especially those from here in Empangeni.]

The recognition and regulation of health practitioners by law is uniquely South Africa in that it brings together elements of the cultures of the developed world and those of Africa. It recognises that in practice these cultures merge and intertwine for most of our people. The Traditional Health Practitioners Bill brings together these cultures in the practice of medicine.

Among the challenges we have faced in drafting this Bill is that of definitions. Whilst we all know what traditional health practice is it is not easy to define it in legal terms. And what is today known as conventional medicine has its roots in traditional practice. One of the definitions given for African traditional medicine by the World Health Organisation Centre for Health Development is the following:

  It is the sum total of all knowledge and practices, whether explicable
  or not, used in diagnosis, prevention and elimination of physical,
  mental or societal imbalance and relying exclusively on practical
  experience and observation handed down from generation to generation
  whether verbally or in writing.

Lena-ke yincazelo eqhamuka kwinhlangano kazwelonke yezempilo lapho isichazela khona ukuthi uma sikhuluma ngendlela yokwelapha yendabuko sisuke sichazani. Bayachaza-ke ukuthi lokhu kuhlanganisa ukubhula, ukuvikela nokwelapha izinto ezihlukumeza umzimba, ingqondo nomphakathi. Lolu lwazi olunzulu ludluliselwa komunye nomunye umuntu futhi lokhu kwenziwa ngomlomo noma kokunye kubhalwe phansi. (Translation of isiZulu paragraph follows.)

[This is the definition from the World Health Organisation that explains to us what we mean when we are talking about traditional healing. They then explain that this, amongst others, includes diagnosis, prevention and healing the things that trouble the body, the mind and the community. This special knowledge is passed on from one person to the other either orally or in writing.]

This definition acknowledges that there are aspects of traditional health practice that cannot always be explained in terms of Western medical science, but that this does not necessarily detract from their validity or value in caring for people’s health and wellbeing. Western medicine is often contrasted with the approach taken by traditional health practitioners. The former is usually associated with diseases of the physical body only and is based on the principles of science and technology, knowledge and clinical analyses developed in North America and Western Europe. Whilst the practice of traditional medicine is derived from a cultural history that spurns centuries, it cannot fail to be influenced and affected by modern development and thinking. It is a living system that must be constantly adapted and developed to meet the changing needs of the people it serves.

Hundreds of years ago there was no such thing as HIV/Aids. People did not suffer from the stress of modern living and burnout from too much pressure in their work. They did not know about the diseases associated with the use of tobacco products.

Babengazi ukuthi kokunye kanti ubhema nje usuyazibulala, bengazi ukuthi uphuza utshwala nje kanti kokunye usuyazibulala. [They did not know that, amongst other things, smoking is suicide, and that by drinking liquor you are also killing yourself.]

In order to ensure that traditional health practice continues to have currency and value and makes a meaningful contribution to the national health system, it is necessary to systematise and regularise it. The South African health system has to meet the needs of all of the people of South Africa. Statistics indicate that more people in our country consult traditional health practitioners than medical doctors and other practitioners of allopathic medicine. In many instances they do not have access to any other kind of health care. There are many thousands of people in South Africa who were born with the assistance of a traditional birth attendant. There were not always fancy hospitals, obstetricians and gynaecologists at hand to ensure that our mothers gave birth safely.

Studies have shown that traditional birth attendants are very influential and highly respected people in their communities. They have revealed that 75% of traditional birth attendants are taught their craft by close relatives. The work they do is therefore an important tradition that needs to be formally recognised. They can be important allies too in organising efforts to improve the health of the community. The SA Nursing Council registered a number of traditional birth attendants as enrolled midwives some years ago.

Ngiyacabanga-ke ukuthi lokhu kukhombisa inqubekela-phambili maqondana nokuthi kulo mbuso wentando yeningi omama abangababelethisi ngokwendabuko namhlanje sebeyakwazi ukuthi bakwenze lokho ngegunya abalinikezwe umkhandlu wamanesi kule Ningizimu Afrika.

Siyalazi-ke iqhaza elibanjwa ngababelethisi bendabuko ekusizeni labo abasindwayo ukubafundisa ngezindlela okufuneka beziphathe ngayo, lokhu okuthiwa ngesilungu i-prenatal care, bebafundisa ukuthi yikuphi okufanele bakudle nokuthi yikuphi okufanele bangakudli, nokuthi yiziphi izinto namakhathakhatha abangakusebenzisa lapho bezwa izinseka nobuhlungu kanye nalokho okuthiwa yi-morning sickness. (Translation of isiZulu paragraphs follows.)

[I think this shows progress because in this democracy mothers who are traditional midwives can now legally assist with the birth because they have been vested with the authority to do so by the Nursing Council in this new South Africa.

We know the role played by the traditional birth attendants in advising the pregnant ones concerning prenatal care; they also advise them what to eat and what they should not eat and also advise them as to which things and medications they should use when they feel labour pains and when they have what we call morning sickness.]

They help women to cope with morning sickness, they do abdominal massages and offers comfort to mothers by giving them a sense of security. They also assist with the delivery of the baby and advise and assist the new mother about how to care for the baby after it is born. It is important however that we co-operate in ensuring that the conditions under which this is done do not compromise the health or endanger the lives of the mother and the child. I have no idea how much time I have. I have only 15 minutes. In Parliament we have an electronic device that warns you how much time you have left.

The other group of traditional health practitioners to be regulated by this Bill is diviners [izangoma,] herbalists [izinyanga] and traditional surgeons [izingcibi.] These people have for centuries played an important role in the health care of South Africans whilst traditionally the diviner provides a diagnosis, usually through spiritual means, and the herbalist then chooses and applies relevant remedies. Today there are many traditional health practitioners who do both. In other words, they practice as izangoma and also prescribe traditional remedies or they practice as izinyanga but also diagnose the patients’ illnesses.

Traditional health practitioners tend to take a holistic approach to illness, treating the individuals spiritual and physical wellbeing together, especially with the terminal illness Aids. The spiritual side becomes very important. Western medicine could take a few lessons from traditional health practitioners in seeing the patient as an entire human being as opposed to just a tonsil or a liver or an immune system.

Traditional health practitioners experience many of the same problems, as do the other health professions. We have people who call themselves by the same titles but who engage in unsafe and even life-threatening practices. They bring those members of the profession who do practice ethically and who know what they are doing into disrepute. A good example of this is the highly publicised deaths, which are occurring with alarming frequency due to traditional circumcisions that take place. It is not our intention to interfere with traditional cultural practices, but we cannot stand by and do nothing while young boys are killed or maimed due to irresponsible and unsafe circumcision methods. The Bill establishes the Interim Traditional Health Practitioners Council.

Umsebenzi wawo lo mkhandlu kazwelonke ukuthi uwona ozoshaya imithetho yokuthi basebenza kanjani labo abelapha ngamakhambi esintu. Lo mkhandlu yiwo ozobhekela ukuvikeleka komphakathi ukuze labo abazibiza ngezinyanga nezangoma bengezona bangakwazi ukuqhubeka nokukwenza lokho. Umkhandlu uzoshaya imithetho yokusebenza ngokusizana noNgqongqoshe wezeMpilo kuzwelonke ukuze umphakathi uvikeleke futhi wazi ukuthi uma uhambele labo abelapha ngokwendabuko uzobe uphephile kulokho. (Translation of isiZulu paragraph follows.)

[The duty of this national council would be to determine the rules and regulations regarding the utilisation of medicine by traditional health practitioners. This council will look after the safety of the community so that those who call themselves inyangas and sangomas when they are not cannot continue doing so. The council, assisted by the Minister of Health, will make regulations so that the community can be protected and feel safe when they visit traditional health practitioners.]

The Department of Health conducted road shows in the different provinces in order to familiarise traditional health practitioners with the concepts in the Bill. We became aware of the existence of many associations of traditional health practitioners. Some of these call themselves councils. In some cases these associations or councils have hundreds if not thousands of members. There are some 200 000 traditional health practitioners in South Africa. It is not surprising therefore that confusion arose as to the role of the Interim Traditional Health Practitioners Council as opposed to that of these associations.

The best way to illustrate their different roles is to draw a comparison between these associations and the SA Medical Association on the one hand and the comparison between the Interim Traditional Health Practitioners Council and the Health Professions Council of South Africa on the other. There can be many SAMAs. There can be many traditional health practitioners’ associations. Membership of such associations is voluntary and practitioners’ can choose whether or not to join. There can be only one health professions council of South Africa to regulate the medical profession. “Okusho ukuthi kuzoba khona umkhandlu omunye zwi okuyiwona osebenza ngokomthetho.” [This therefore means that legally there will be only one council.]

Similarly there can be only one interim health practitioners council to regulate traditional health practitioners; the law creates these councils. “Le mikhandlu iyimikhandlu ezobe ibekwe ngokomthetho.” [These councils will be established in terms of the legislation.]

The Bill that is before you today will create the Interim Traditional Health Practitioners Council. They are not formed by agreement between a group of practitioners, as in the case of the associations. Registration with the Interim Traditional Health Practitioners Council is compulsory if a person wishes to continue to practice traditional medicine as defined in the Bill. Once the Bill becomes law traditional health practitioners who practice while unregistered will be guilty of a criminal offence and be subject to prosecution.

Kusho ukuthi uma usuphasile lo Mthethosivivinywa waba uMthetho, labo abayotholakala ukuthi bayaqhubeka nokwelapha, ukubhula noma ukunikeza abantu amakhathakhatha bengabhalisile futhi bengaziwa yilo mkhandlu, bayobe bephula umthetho. (Translation of isiZulu paragraph follows.)

[This means that when this Bill has been enacted, those who continue to practice traditional health care, make diagnoses, or give traditional medicines to people when they are neither registered with nor known to the council, will be breaking the law.]

Broadly speaking, the role of the Interim Health Practitioners Council is to register all qualifying traditional health practitioners, promote training and research, create a data base of traditional health practitioners, encourage professionalism amongst traditional health practitioners, develop an ethical code of conduct and maintain discipline and accountability amongst traditional health practitioners, set up norms and standards for traditional health practice and facilitate co-operation amongst traditional healers, other health- related professions and the government.

Niyezwa-ke ukuthi omunye wemisebenzi yalo mkhandlu ukukhuthaza ucwaningo nokwabelana ngolwazi phakathi kwalabo abanolwazi. [You have also heard that the other work of this council is to encourage and promote research and sharing of knowledge amongst those who have it.]

The council will establish scopes of practice for traditional health practitioners, which will be regulated by the Bill and establish and maintain standards of education and training. The Minister of Health will appoint the members of the council and the majority of them will be traditional health practitioners themselves. The Bill provides for a maximum of 22 council members. Amongst them will be representatives of the Department of Health, a registered medical practitioner and a pharmacist. This is very important for the maintenance of standards and for the purposes of safety.

Much as has been made of the question of sick notes and whether employers will now be obliged to accept medical certificates from traditional health practitioners who certify that their patients are unfit for work for a particular period. The validity of any medical certificate is open to question should the employer have reason to believe that it has been fraudulently issued. In the medical certificate a traditional health practitioner is saying that he or she has examined the employee and on the basis of his or her knowledge and skill has ascertained that such an employee was unfit for work. On what basis then would the employer be acting fairly in refusing to accept such a certificate if the skill and knowledge of the traditional practitioners to make such a determination is being called into question?

Lokho-ke kusho ukuthi uma ufika ne-medical certificate uqhamuka kwinyanga unelungelo lokuthi umqashi asamukele leso sitifiketi ngoba lokho kuzobe kungumbono walowo onolwazi oye waya kuye udinga akunikeze leso sitifiketi sokuthi awukwazi ukuya emsebenzini. [Ihlombe.] (Translation of isiZulu paragraph follows.)

[This means that if you come from the inyanga with a medical certificate it is your right that the employer accept it because it would be reflecting the diagnosis of a person with the expertise in that regard, who would be saying that you could not go to work. [Applause.]]

The Traditional Health Practitioners Bill promotes and encourages the preservation of priceless traditional knowledge that could otherwise be lost to our society. Knowledge of the plant that holds the secret of a cure for HIV/Aids could be resident within the minds of a handful of traditional healers who have not been encouraged to pass that knowledge on for the benefit of future generations. How tragic it would it be if their knowledge dies with them? The Bill affirms the dignity and respect to which true traditional health practitioners are entitled.

Formal legal recognition of the practice of traditional medicine has a number of benefits for practitioners and their patients. In terms of the Medical Schemes Act, medical schemes may only pay for health services rendered by practitioners registered in terms of the law. Since traditional health practitioners were previously not required by law to register their services could not be recognised by medical schemes. Patients had to pay for traditional health services out of their own pockets.

When the Bill is passed traditional health practitioners will be registered practitioners in terms of the law. Medical schemes that choose to do so will be able to recognise and pay for the services as a benefit of their members. [Applause.] If a patient is not satisfied that a traditional health practitioner has behaved in a professional or ethical manner he or she will be able to report that practitioner to the interim council. The council will be able to take disciplinary steps against traditional health practitioners for unprofessional conduct. The definition of the term “traditional philosophy” in the Bill reads as follows:

  “Traditional philosophy” means indigenous African techniques,
  principles, theories, ideologies, beliefs, opinions and customs and
  uses of traditional medicines communicated from ancestors to
  descendants or from generations to generations, with or without
  written documentation, whether supported by science or not, and which
  are generally used in traditional health practice.

You can see the similarities between this definition and the definition of the World Health Organisation of African traditional medicine, which I referred to earlier. The traditional health practitioners, as regulated by the Bill, are concerned with traditional health practices that are based on traditional philosophy. Extensive consultations about this Bill have been held with traditional health practitioners and their representatives in all of the provinces. The Department of Health went on a road show itself to familiarise the traditional practitioners with the principles of the Bill. The majority of traditional health practitioners consulted wanted to be regulated and recognised by the legislation. They want to be able to rid themselves of those individuals who bring their profession into disrepute and who pass themselves off as being skilled when they are not.

Most traditional health practitioners care deeply for the wellbeing of their patients. They are willing to lend their support and co-operation to other systems of medicine and to work in close co-operation with other health professionals for the good of all.

Nginenkolelo yokuthi lo Mthethosivivinywa, i-Traditional Health Practitioners Bill, uzokwazi ukusenza sifeze lezi zinjongo esengizibalile zokuthi kuhlonishwe nokuthi kukhuthazwe izindlela nezinkambiso zendabuko abantu abaziphilisa ngazo.

Mangivale le nkulumo yami ngokuzibongela. Ngibongela no-MEC uNeliswa Nkonyeni osethathe izintambo ku-MEC uZweli Mkhize engikholwayo ukuthi lokhu akwenzile uNdunankulu wesifundazwe saKwaZulu kuzoba nomthelela ekutheni izimpilo zabantu zibe ngcono ngoba siyazi ukuthi omama bayazihlupha ngezimpilo zabantu.

Siyabonga ku-MEC uZweli Mkhize obeselibambile iqhaza iminyaka eyishumi engu- MEC wezempilo. Besibambisene kahle kakhulu naye. Ngiyabonga. [Ihlombe.] Besibambisene kahle kakhulu naye. Ngiyabonga. [Ihlombe.] (Translation of isiZulu paragraphs follows.)

[I believe that the Traditional Health Practitioners Bill will help us accomplish the objectives that I have mentioned of respecting and encouraging the traditional ways in which our people treat themselves.

Let me conclude my speech by thanking you. I also congratulate MEC Neliswa Nkonyeni, who has taken over from MEC Zweli Mkhize and I believe that what the Premier of KwaZulu-Natal has done will have an effect on improving the lives of people because we know that women worry about the lives of people.

We thank MEC Zweli Mkhize, who played a meaningful role as the minister of health for 10 years. We worked very well with him. I thank you. [Applause.]]

IPHINI LIKASIHLALO WOMKHANDLU KAZWELONKE WEZIFUNDAZWE (Mnu M J Mahlangu): Siyabonga kumama uMadlala-Routledge ngokusipha inkulumo yakhe kulo Mthethosivivinywa ophambi kwethu namhlanje.

Kukhona-ke amalungu esishayamthetho afunda amaphepha lapha phakathi eNdlini. Asikavunyelwa ukufunda amaphepha lapha eNdlini. Ngicela niwagoqe niwabeke. Lapha silalela inkulumo-mpikiswano esuke ikhona, hhayi ukufunda amaphepha. (Translation of isiZulu paragraphs follows.)

[The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES (Mr M J Mahlangu): I thank Mrs Madlala-Routledge for giving her speech on this Bill before us today. There are members of the legislature who read newspapers here on this side of the House. We are not allowed to read newspapers in this House. I request you to collect and keep them. We are listening to the debate at the moment, we are not here to read newspapers.]

Please, no reading of newspapers is allowed in the Chamber. You know that is out of order! All of you know that.

Ms J MASILO: Ke a leboga. [Thank you.] Hon Chairperson, hon Deputy Minister, hon MECs, hon members of the provincial legislature, speakers from the provinces, our traditional healers - now called traditional practitioners - amakhosi and officials from the department, the NCOP’s Select Committee on Social Services and the National Assembly’s Portfolio Committee on Health handed over their report on traditional healers to the Ministry of Health in 1998. They fully expected that a Bill would be forthcoming shortly. The members of the select committee and the portfolio committee had been aware that traditional health practitioners have received and continue to receive a raw deal, as was the case under the previous regime, and that almost nothing had been done to regulate and control their sector. In fact, not much research has been done in South Africa about their plight. Most of the information contained in that report came from traditional healers themselves in a public hearing process. Superstition, charlatans and accusations of witchcraft were just some of the stigmas and stereotypes that traditional healers have to contend with, especially in the province of Limpopo.

The Bill is finally here and we are very happy that this sector’s great concerns are now being addressed. Because African traditional medicine deserves the recognition and respectability that is already afforded to some other traditional medicines, such as that in India and Ayurvedic traditional medicine in Sri Lanka, and acupuncture in Chinese traditional medicine. Already individuals from Western cultures are exploring what it means to be an African traditional healer and a case in point was Jessie Hogabuck, a health care worker from California who was in Swaziland learning to be a sangoma amathwasa trainee healer. She was expected to fast, to communicate with the ancestors, learn about wild herbs and discover how to divine illness in patients and treat them holistically before she could become a qualified traditional healer. But, most importantly, in Jessie’s case it was only when there was a true manifestation of the amadlozi which is when the ancestral spirit takes possession of the amathwasa and confers the power of revelation, that she could graduate as a traditional health practitioner.

This Bill before us today seeks to establish an Interim Health Practitioners Council of South Africa and it will apply to all those practicing traditional health and students who will be engaged in the learning of these traditions from now on. The categories of health practitioners falling within the jurisdiction of the legislation will be the inyanga, herbalists or traditional doctors, sangomas, or diviners trained to communicate with and utilise the powers of ancestors and diagnosing diseases or other ailments. The ababelekisi, or traditional birth attendants, are usually older women who have been midwives before and ingcibi, traditional surgeons, or those men with training and experience in traditional circumcision.

It will be the mammoth task of this council to ensure that all traditional health practitioners who wish to be recognised should be registered. They must be appropriately trained and developed and comply with an ethical code of conduct and a number of other subsidiary functions. The next three years after the establishment of the interim council promise to be an exciting time for traditional health practitioners; that is during the three years of the interim council and during the five years of the first permanent council. They will finally have the opportunity through the council to assist with self-regulation. They will also be responsible for being imaginative, just as long as due regard is given to co-operation between Western medical practice and traditional healers. Of course, inherent in the new Bill brought about by this government will be the responsibility to preserve indigenous knowledge for posterity, as well as to develop a data base of traditional medicine that can be utilised by everyone and will benefit the further development of the profession of traditional health practitioners. Drugs and medicinal components will be tested and marketed by the Medicine Control Council in the same way that homeopathic medicines are currently treated.

The interim council should also take on board co-operation between the traditional health practitioners and the medical insurance companies. We would like to see a situation develop where medical aids pay if one visits a traditional health practitioner in the same way that it pays for visits and medication recommended by Western doctors. There is no reason why South Africa cannot, as is suggested by an article on tradition and medicine, become a place where Westerners can enjoy all the comforts of an African spa or health resort; where authentic traditional medicines are used and traditional health practitioners consulted. Indeed, if we were to take such a route then we would surely vindicate ourselves in the eyes of those who scorn and revile traditional medicines. Will it not be wonderful if, instead of growing herb gardens containing rosemary, sage and thyme, we could grow traditional herbs that will cure simple ailments such as the common cold and headaches, high blood pressure and diabetes?

In conclusion, traditional health practitioners, the NCOP’s Select Committee on Social Services is happy to support this Bill.

IPHINI LIKASIHLALO WOMKHANDLU KAZWELONKE WEZIFUNDAZWE (Mnu M J Mahlangu): Ngaphambi kokuba aqale ukukhuluma ngifuna ukusho ukuthi nami ngiyamhalalisela uNk P Nkonyeni ngokungena kulesi sikhundla sezempilo. Ngiyethemba ukuthi uMkhandlu wonke uyamhalalisela nokuthi umfisela inhlanhla yokuthi sengathi angaphumelela emsebenzini wakhe. Siyabonga. (Translation of isiZulu paragraph follows.)

[The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES (Mr M J Mahlangu): I would like to congratulate Ms P Nkonyeni on her appointment to the health portfolio before she makes her speech. I furthermore, on behalf of the Council, congratulate her and wish her everything of the best in this appointment. Thank you.]

Nk P NKONYENI (KwaZulu-Natal): Ngiyazibongela Sihlalo, ngiyazibongela nakuMkhandlu wonke, ngibonga namalungu esishayamthetho sesifundazwe, ngibonga nomphakathi, ngibonga noNgqongqoshe engimphucile, uNgqongqoshe uZweli Mkhize. [Ihlombe.] Ngiyethemba ukuthi ngizohamba ezinyathelweni zakhe. Ngizoqhubeka lapho egcine khona njengoba simazi sonke ukuthi uneqhaza alibambile kakhulu emnyangweni. Izimpilo zabantu zizoba ngcono njengoba sihlale sithembisa kanjalo. Ngiyabonga. (Translation of isiZulu paragraph follows.)

[Ms N K NKONYENI (KwaZulu-Natal): Thank you Chairperson, I also express my gratitude to the entire Council, members of the provincial legislature, members of the community and also the MEC that I succeeded, MEC Dr Zweli Mkhize. [Applause.] I am confident that I will follow in his footsteps. I am going to continue from where he left off; we all know the role he played in the department. The lives of the people will improve, as this is what we have promised. Thank you.] Chairperson, Hon Ministers, hon MECs, members of the NCOP, members of the legislature, amakhosi and my brothers and sisters seated in the public gallery, I greet you.

It is my privilege this afternoon to address this House on the Traditional Health Practitioners Bill. I would like to say at the outset that my department welcomes this legislation and strongly believes that it is long overdue.

The Bill has particular relevance for KwaZulu-Natal, which is a province in which many communities rely on the wisdom and skill of traditional healers. We believe this legislation has an important role to play in regulating the art of traditional healing. This is an art that has been passed down through generations by word of mouth. We believe the legislation can bring dignity and credibility to traditional healing. We would like to see the traditional healing practice in this country elevated to the same internationally acclaimed status as the traditional healing practices of other countries such as China and India.

Having said this, one would like to point out that it is still early in the day because we still need clearly defined and articulated regulatory frameworks. Many issues are yet to be properly thrashed out and clarified. There has to be greater clarity about transitional arrangements that will allow currently practising traditional healers to conform to requirements of the legislation, given that many are uneducated and some are even totally illiterate, which may make the interpretation of the regulation problematic for them. We therefore need to put in place the arrangements that will allow the smooth transition to the following of the regulations. The regulations should make it easier rather than more difficult for the practitioners to comply with.

The process of registering traditional practitioners was started right here in KwaZulu-Natal some years ago when the need to streamline their practice became apparent and urgent. We are proud of that and we are happy to say that traditional healers should be quite enthusiastic about the registration process. The experience and the lessons learned during this interim arrangement in KwaZulu-Natal will assist us with implementing the Bill.

There is no doubt that the whole sphere of traditional healing needs to be regularised but we must guard against changing it so much so that those who practise it would hardly recognise it. We need true professionals so that we can weed out quacks or those fly-by-night practitioners who prey on the desperation of their patients. We need also to look into the issue of practitioners who work from unstable and ill-defined places… “… njengalabo abatholakala bedayisa imithi yenhlanhla emigwaqweni.” [… like those who are found selling muthi [medicinal herbs] in the streets.]

While we welcome the Bill and the possibilities it holds for our country we do want to urge that there should be a balance between the use of herbs and the conservation of nature. We need to pay serious attention to the rehabilitation and rejuvenation of the plants and trees that yield our medicinal herbs. We need also to guard against the economic exploitation of practitioners and those who are trading in medicinal herbs to safeguard the intellectual property of traditional practitioners. We do want to caution however that traditional healing must not be seen as a mechanism to address unemployment. This will open it to abuse by quacks.

As it is, we have the huge problem of unregistered nursing schools which are mushrooming all over the province because people are desperate for jobs. They flock to these schools and pay a small fortune for qualifications that they cannot use anywhere - if they ever get a qualification.

Many of these schools collect fees from students and simply disappear into the night. Proper training of practitioners will help us to address issues of decent standards of hygiene, standardisation of doses to reduce adverse effects and toxins and infection control. Training institutions for healers need careful thinking-through so that departure from tradition is done in such a way that it takes on board all practitioners. There are some practices that are not traditional healing per se, but which over the years have rightly or wrongly come to be associated with traditional healing. These include experimentation with herbs of no use like “uku xiya”. This is the harvesting of human body parts in order to make herbal concoctions and the abuse of patients by some unscrupulous practitioners. Our regulatory framework must allow us to properly control these practitioners.

I would like to take this opportunity to praise the traditional healers of our province for their unflinching support for and co-operation with the KwaZulu-Natal Department of Health, particularly on the HIV and Aids programmes.

The department, together with my predecessor, Dr Zweli Mkhize, has worked with them on a number of initiatives. They have been particularly helpful in dispelling the myth that raping a virgin cures HIV or Aids. They have categorically stated that this is not true and any healer who perpetuates this is nothing but a quack.

In conclusion, we would like to recognise the role that our province can play in helping with research, the implementation of the legislation and the screening of practitioners, given the experience we have had with the registration of healers in KwaZulu–Natal.

The role that all provinces can play in implementing this legislation must be properly structured so as to reduce the flood of work that would have to be handled by the national office. I thank you.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: It was a maiden speech made in the NCOP. Thank you very much. That was a brilliant one.

Nk N M MADLALA-MAGUBANE: Ngiyabonga, Sihlalo. Mangibonge kubo bonke oNgqongqoshe abakhona nalabo abaphuma kuzifundazwe ezahlukahlukene, ngibonge abahlonishwa be-NCOP kanye nabezifunda, ngibonge amakhansela angaphakathi, ngibonge nomphakathi wonke okhona. Ngalo mthetho obizwa ngokuthi i-Traditional Health Practitioners Bill uhulumeni oholwa uKhongolose ufeza izithembiso azenza kubelaphi bendabuko balapha eNingizimu Afrika.

Isigungu esihlongozwayo kanye noMnyango wezeMpilo kazwelonke bazoqala umkhombandlela ekwakheni lo mthetho obalulekile wokwelapha ngezendabuko ngaphandle kokungabaza ukuthi umthetho ngowabantu abangafundile.

Angingabazi neze ukuthi ukwelapha ngokwendabuko kwakukhona kusukela mandulo. Ake ngisho ukuthi bengakafiki odokotela bamakhambi esilungu abantu bebevele bezinikela komunye othize phakathi kwabo endaweni yokuhlala owayebasiza ngolwazi lwezendabuko oluqondene nayo leyo ndawo abahlala kuyona, nokwelapha ngemithi ezimilelayo engatshaliwe kanye nemithi edidiyelwe. Babezinikele kakhulu kwimithi enjengempepho, injungulu, ikhathazo, intelezi nokunye.

Laba bantu babenesipho esithile esivela kuMvelinqangi sokusebenzisa amakhambi kanye nomoya wabaphansi, amadlozi phela. Kokunye babesizakala ngezifundo ababezamukela kwabadala asebekhulile, asebemkantsha ubomvu. Isizwe sonke bebeselapha, sihlomule ngalokhu. Laba belaphi bakhona kuwo wonke umphakathi wale lizwe lethu, ngisho nasemaphandleni lapho odokotela besilungu bengekho khona.

Okunye okubalulekile ngalo mthetho ohlongozwayo ukuthi uhulumeni kaKhongolose uzimisele ukuqeda zonke izithikamezo kanye nezinkinga ezithintana nezokwelapha okujulile ngokwendabuko kwalapha e-Afrika, njengalokho komthetho oshicilelwe, i-Homeopaths, Naturopaths, Osteopaths and Herbalists Act ka-1974, ofundeka kanje, kwisigaba 8(1):

  Imvume kayisoze yanikwa ompisholo osebenzisa amakhambi ngaphandle
  kwemvume kaNgqongqoshe wezeMpilo.

Isigaba 8(2) sibuye futhi sithi lo mthetho kanye ne-Medical, Dental and Supplementary Health Service Professions Act ka-1974 awusoze wacekela phansi umthetho oshicilelwe ngenhla wokuthi kufuneka imvume eqhamuka kuMnyango wezeMpilo. Lo mthetho ohlongozwayo uzama ukuqeda zonke lezo zinqinamba zokucekelwa phansi kwabelaphi bendabuko.

Lo mthetho uzama ukwamukela ngesizotha bonke abelaphi bendabuko ngokushabalalisa zonke izinqinamba ababhekene nazo kodwa babonakale bewusizo kule lizwe lethu. Ngakho-ke isigungu esihlongozwayo sizoqikelela ukubhekelwa kwazo zonke izinqinamba nezinkinga ukuze bakhe umthetho ofanele uMzansi Afrika.

Ngithanda ukusho ukuthi iNingizimu Afrika ayiyodwa kule nkinga kodwa umhlaba wonke jikelele ubhekene nale nkinga yokwelapha ngokwezendabuko. EPhalamende lokuqala lentando yeningi elasungulwa ngo-1994 iKomidi le- Social Services le-NCOP laba nenhlanhla yokuvakashela eNdiya ukuyofunda ngokwelapha kwezendabuko. Bagculiseka kakhulu ngezindlela nobuchwepheshe maqondana nabelaphi bendabuko.

Lapho eNdiya kwakukhona izindlela ezahlukahlukene kwezokwelapha kodwa kwakukhona ubumbano nokuzwana phakathi kwazo izinyanga ngisho nakuzo izinyanga ezilapha ngokwesilungu, ze-Western medical practice. Ngokwesigungu sezobuchwepheshe khona eNdiya, i-ayurveda nesiddha uhlobo lokwelapha eNdiya obelukhona kwezomdabu ngonyaka ka-1916. Amalungu alesi sigungu esasibizwa ngokuthi yi-Imperial Legislative Council ayengagculisekile neze yile nqubo. Acela ukuthi umqondisi-jikelele we- Indian Medical Services amukele isiphakamiso sokuthi akuhlolisiswe izindlela zokuthuthukisa ezabomdabu e-Urubenda ukuze phela wonke umphakathi waseNdiya uthole usizo kubelaphi bendabuko.

Okunye, isigungu esibizwa ngokuthi i-Indian National Congress saba nesiphakamiso ngo-1920 emva kwenkululeko. Lesi siphakamiso senziwa kwingqungquthela yokuqala yoNgqongqoshe bezempilo ukuthi i-Aryuveda ithuthukise umthetho wabelaphi bendabuko ukuze wonke umuntu waseNdiya ahlomule. Ucwaningo lwanabela nakwezinye izindawo maqondana nezindlela zokwelapha ngokwendabuko eNdiya. Lokho-ke kwadala ukuthi kube nobuchwepheshe kwezempilo. Lobu buchwepheshe baqala ngonyaka ka-1962.

Mangisho ukuthi abelaphi bendabuko baseNdiya babanazo izinkinga ezithize kodwa ekugcineni banqoba. Nginethemba lokuthi nalapha kithi eNingizimu Afrika isigungu esisha se-Traditional Medical Council sizowuthuthukisa ngobuchwepheshe lo mthetho nangobunono ikakhulukazi uma bengafunda kwelaseNdiya.

Masingakhohlwa ukuthi kuleli lakithi sibhekene neziningi izindlela zokwelapha ngokwezendabuko. Sinalabo abamba imithi, sinabahlola ngamathambo, sinezanusi, izangoma nabanye. Lesi sigungu esisha sibhekene nomsebenzi omkhulu obalulekile. Singakhohlwa ukuthi kumele bahlolisise ukuze bakwazi ukuhlukanisa umelaphi nomkhunkuli. Umsebenzi walesi sigungu uyobonakala kakhulu.

Okunye abamelwe ukukwenza ukushicilela phansi emabhukwini ngokwezokwelapha ukuze izingane zethu nazo zihlomule. Ngokunjalo ezweni lase-China kunesigungu esibizwa ngokuthi yi-Traditional Chinese Medicine esithuthuke kakhulu kangangoba lesi sigungu sisekela uhulumeni wakhona e-China sibuye sikhiqize ochwepheshe nodokotela khona phela e-China. [Kwaphela isikhathi.] [Ihlombe.] (Translation of isiZulu paragraphs follows.)

[Ms N M MADLALA-MAGUBANE: Thank you, Chairperson. Let me thank all the Ministers who are present, as well as the MECs from different provinces, hon members of the NCOP and those of the provinces, councillors present in this House and also all members of the public present.

With this Traditional Health Practitioners Bill, the ANC- led government is achieving the promises it made to the South African traditional health practitioners.

The proposed council and the national Department of Health will start a programme making this important Traditional Health Practitioners Bill undoubtedly flexible legislation to people who are not educated.

I know that the traditional health practice was already available in olden days. Let me just say that, before the Western medical doctors arrived people were already attending, say, a particular person within their community who would help them with his/her knowledge of how to use certain indigenous herbs that are not planted by man, and who also taught them how to mix the herbs. They put a great deal of trust in herbs like Impepho [Everlasting], Intshugu [Balsam Pear], Ikhathazo [Larger Tinsel Flower], Intelezi [Elephant’s Foot], etc.

Those people had a gift from God, for using indigenous herbs and spiritual communication with the dead, ancestors in this case. In other instances they benefited from receiving teachings by the elderly ones who were experienced. The practice of healing benefit the nation. These traditional health practitioners are scattered all over communities of our country, even in rural areas where there are no medical doctors.

Another important feature of the proposed Bill is that the ANC-led government is committed to overcome all the obstacles and problems facing traditional health practice in Africa, like those arising from other published Acts such as the Homeopaths, Naturopaths, Osteopaths and Herbalists Act, Act of 1974, which read thus: in section 8(1) of which provides that licences shall not be issued to a black person without prior approval by the Minister of Health. Section 8 (2) also provides that this Bill and the Medical, Dental and Supplementary Health Services Professions Act of 1974 shall not frustrate the aforementioned legislation, and that requires the approval of the Minister of Health.

The proposed Bill is aimed at addressing the problems that have been frustrating traditional health practitioners. This legislation is intended to accommodate with dignity all the traditional health practitioners by removing the barriers which would stop them from being seen as helpful in this country. Therefore the proposed council will ensure that these problems are addressed and that legislation is drafted that will suit the people of South Africa. I also want to highlight that it is not only South Africa that is experiencing problems with traditional health practices, but the world as a whole. In the first Parliament of 1994, the NCOP’s Select Committee on Social Services was very fortunate as it had an opportunity to visit India and observe traditional health practices. The committee was impressed by the scientific methods applied in traditional health practice. In India there were different medical methodologies, which were established by partnership and good working relations between traditional health practitioners and medical practitioners.

According to the Indian Research Council, Ayurveda and Siddha were medical methods in India that have been in existence since 1916. The members of the then called Imperial Legislative Council were not happy with this practice. They requested the director-general of Indian Medical Services to approve a motion with regard to exploring ways of developing traditional health practice in Urubenda so that the whole Indian community could access traditional health services.

The other thing was that, the Indian National Congress moved a motion after liberation in 1920. This motion was moved at the first conference held by the ministries of health, to the effect that the Ayurveda should develop a traditional health services Act to benefit all the Indian people. The feasibility study into new Indian traditional medical methods was extended to other areas. That brought about new technology in health services. These new technologies were introduced in 1962.

Let me also say that the traditional health practitioners of India did have problems, but they managed to overcome them. I hope that even here at home in South Africa the Traditional Medical Council will develop this legislation in an equitable manner, particularly if they can learn from India.

We should not forget that our country has the advantage of having many traditional healing methods. We have those who trade in umuthi [traditional medicine], those who use bones to detect evil, fortune tellers, sangomas and so on. This new council is faced with a big and important task. We should not lose sight of the fact that the new council should make a proper assessment in order to differentiate between a healer [inyanga] and a witch doctor. The work of this council will have significant consequences.

Traditional health practitioners are scattered all over communities of our country, even in rural areas, where there are no medical doctors.

Another task they stand to perform is to document traditional health practices so that our children will benefit. In China there is a body, known as the Traditional Chinese Medicine Council, that is so highly developed that it even assists the government of China. It also produces scientists and doctors inside China. [Time expired.][Applause.]]

Mrs M G VANTURA (Western Cape): Deputy Speaker, hon members. It is indeed a pleasure for me today to address the House. Coming from the Western Cape and growing up in a village brings back many memories to me when we speak about traditional things and when we speak about traditional medicines; the way we grew up, the way our mothers used to have plants and used plants from our own gardens. I was an adult woman already when I first understood the word gynaecologist and what the gynaecologist does. The way we grew up is that we had people in our communities who cared for us, who cared for mothers when they were pregnant and we had our medicines in our gardens.

We did not know words like “medical aid”. They did not exist in our vocabulary. It is only when we became so sophisticated that we realised we could belong to a medical aid. Our own medical aid was in our garden and that was the way we grew up. We also had our castor oil every day. So speaking on this debate is very interesting and important.

The vision of the national Department of Health is to create a caring and humane society in which all South African citizens’ basic human rights and constitutional rights are safeguarded. This is a vision, which is shared by the provincial department of health and the provincial government of the Western Cape. It is widely accepted that a vast percentage of South African citizens make use of services offered by the health sector. This therefore creates an obligation for the government to create the vital health service required by the population of the Republic.

It is the view of the Western Cape’s Provincial Standing Committee on Social Development that the Bill under discussion today plays its part in improving access to and also increases the scope of services rendered within the public health system.

Another important trend running through the other Bills as well is the protection of the interests of users of the public health system. The Traditional Health Practitioners Bill is necessary and it is fundamental as it seeks to regulate the profession, which was previously unregulated.

The Bill has been developed to ensure the services rendered by traditional health practitioners conform to set norms and standards which have as primary consideration the safety of members of the public. The establishment of a council similar to that of all other professions is commendable, as it will ensure that the interests of patients who make use of such practices are safeguarded.

Another important provision in the Bill is the protection of the public against unscrupulous persons who have exploited communities in the past. It has often been the case that persons have proclaimed to be able to treat and cure cancer, HIV/Aids and other terminal diseases. This Bill seeks to offer protection against such persons, as it will now be an offence for any person to claim that he or she can treat or cure a terminal disease. The Bill also makes it mandatory for all traditional health practitioners to be registered with the council. The council is therefore entrusted with a wide spread of powers aimed at regulating the industry and protecting the interest of persons utilising such services.

In conclusion, I wish to confirm that the Western Cape’s Standing Committee on Social Development fully endorses and supports the Bill under discussion today. We firmly hold the view that the Bill when it becomes law will ensure that we as the government can strengthen the delivery of services to our people and thus restore their dignity. I thank you.

Mr F ADAMS: Chair, on a point of order: Is it in keeping with the arrangement of the House that the white members of the DA sit in an exclusive corner rather than according to their provinces?

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr M J Mahlangu): Hon members! It is the responsibility of the provincial Whips to make sure that the delegations sit according to their provinces. Mrs Vilakazi is the next speaker. Mrs J N VILAKAZI: Thank you Chairperson. Hon ministers, Amakhosi present, colleagues, ladies and gentlemen, the topic we are discussing today is very popular with everyone. Traditional medicine and traditional healers are as old as mankind. There are many people who have been surviving on traditional medicine for generations on end. In South Africa alone 80% of patients go to traditional healers before going to either a nurse at the clinic or a general practitioner or to hospital for medical treatment.

The previous colonial system has looked down upon traditional healers and called them all sorts of names, which does not augur well for our culture and human dignity.

The Health Act of 1974 also discriminated against traditional healers. All sorts of names were used to describe them, like witch doctors, native healers, herbalists, native doctors and medicine men. The large number of Africans continued in their support of and to believe in and trust traditional medicine. It is estimated that there are 350 000 traditional practitioners in South Africa, who provide their services to about 60% to 80% of their communities. Traditional healers are important in health care in rural and urban areas. People patronise them because a therapist cannot heal a patient without first taking care of his beliefs, family, work and even his environment.

Traditional and biomedicine therefore have been eyeing each other across a cultural divide for centuries. But now that the scourge of HIV/Aids has hastened the process of real dialogue, scientific investigation is underway.

The IFP applauds this important step taken by the government, to admit this important health care practitioner to the country’s health care system. I also wish to give a special tribute to them, as well as to the KwaZulu government for the efforts and strides they made in elevating the status of traditional healers in KwaZulu-Natal.

Traditional healers were identified and subjected to a comprehensive test and upon a successful test they were issued with competency certificates, which distinguished them from bogus practitioners.

Kuyintokozo kimi ukukhuluma ngalo Mthethosivivinywa osezithebeni, uMthethosivivinywa wabelaphi bendabuko. Siyazi phela ukuthi abelaphi bendabuko bamkhakha miningi. Kulo Mthethosivivinywa kubalwa izinyanga, izangoma, osomakhambi, ababelethisi bomdabu nabanye. Abathandazeli kuphela abangafakiwe kulo mthetho kodwa siyethemba ukuthi nabo bazobhekelwa maduze nje.

Esikuthokozelayo kulo mthetho ukuthi uzobuyisa isithunzi sabelaphi bendabuko imithetho ekhona ekade ingabashayi ndiva. Inhlonipho ibinikezwa odokotela abafunde ngokwaseNtshonalanga nempucuko yesimanje manje. Abelaphi bendabuko bebebizwa ngawo wonke amagama lawa ehlisa isithunzi. Ngiyabancoma abakithi, ama-Afrika phela, okuthe khona kunjalo baphikelela nokuya ezinyangeni, ezangomeni, kubalozi, angazi ngingabala ngithini.

Ucwaningo lusitshela ukuthi umthamo omkhulu wabantu uya kubelaphi bendabuko kakhulu kunoma kuqhathaniswa nokuya kwabo emitholampilo, kodokotela nasesibhedlela. Imithi yesintu iyabasiza. Impatho abayithola ezinyangeni ibanika ithemba. Abelaphi bendabuko banesineke ekwelapheni kwabo umuntu nomuntu. Lokhu kubenzela iwozawoza ezigulini zabo. Abelaphi abehlukani neziguli zabo uma nje kunesidingo ebusuku noma emini usizo lwabo lukhona.

Maqondana nokubhoka kwesifo seNgculazi ucwaningo luveze ukuthi imithi yesintu iyasebenza. Ake nibheke nje ukuthi inhlaba igcwele wonke amagquma namagqunyana lawa. Ngumuthi omdala wendabuko lo futhi sekubonakele ukuthi unosizo olukhulu ezifweni eziningi.

Kukhona amaphilisi nemithi enhlobonhlobo eyenziwa phesheya ngayo inhlaba le egcwele lapha ezweni lethu. Kukhona unwele oludume ngokwelekelela ekwakheni umzimba kubantu abanegciwane leNgculazi nayo iNgculazi qobo. Kukhona futhi idumbe lentaba, i-African potato, nalo osekutholakele ukubaluleka kwalo ekwelapheni izifo. Kukhona izimbiza odubulageqe nezinye ezisiza kakhulu abanoshukela, ihayi-hayi, izifo zeqolo nokunye. Yonke imithi engiyibalayo neminye eminingi iyo phela eyenza umphakathi uye ngobuningi kubelaphi bomdabu.

Lo mthetho uzonikeza abelaphi bomdabu igunya lokusebenzisa i-medical aid ukuthola inkokhelo njengoba kwenza odokotela besilungu. Abelaphi bendabuko bazongena emqulwini wezokwelapha, bakhokhe imali yobulungu baphinde bavuselele ubulungu babo. Leli yiqhaza elibaluleke kakhulu kuMnyango wezeMpilo kuleli zwe.

Kulo mkhakha wokwazisa nokuhlonipha iqhaza elibanjwe yizinyanga, ngethulela isigqoko uhulumeni wakithi omdala waKwaZulu owaba negalelo elikhulu kule ndima yokwazisa abelaphi bendabuko. Inhlangano eyaziwayo eyaqalwa kwaba yiKwaZulu-Natal Nyangas Association. Umomnganeli wayo kwaba nguMnu Jamile kanti namhlanje ukhona umongameli wayo uMnu Mhlongo. Kuyathokozisa uma lo msebenzi owaqalwa kule ndawo yethu siwubona udlondlobala, uhulumeni wentando yeningi ewunikeza amandla athe xaxa, thina be-IFP esaqalayo ngawo. Kodwa siyawesekela kakhulu lo Mthethosivinywa ngoba muhle kakhulu. Siwesekela ngo-Elethu!

Ngingakahlali phansi, nami ngiyacela egameni lale-IFP ukubongela uNkonyeni esikhundleni esiphakeme kangaka asitholile, ngiphinde ngibongele futhi noMnu Gubhela, uDokt Mkhize. Ngithi kuye, “Hawu bakithi, ubuwuphethe kahle umnyango wakho Gubhela.” Siyakubongela nokho. Lapho usungene khona siyethemba ukuthi nakhona uzongena futhi kulunge. Ngiphinda ngibongele futhi nomhlonishwa uMnu Mabuyakhulu esikhundleni sakhe naye esisha. Ngiyabonga kakhulu. [Kwaphela isikhati.] [Ihlombe.]

USIHLALO WAMAKOMIDI: Malungu ahloniphekile, ngizocela ukuthi amalungu azame ngawo wonke amandla ukuthi asebenzise imizuzu ayinikeziwe, angeqi kuze kube kakhulu. (Translation of isiZulu paragraphs follows.)

[I am very happy to talk about this Bill before us, the Traditional Health Practitioners Bill. We are aware that there are different categories of traditional healers. In this Bill traditional doctors, diviners, herbalists and the traditional birth attendants are included. Fortune tellers are not included in this Act, but we hope they will be included in the near future. We are happy that this Act will restore the dignity of traditional healers because previous Acts excluded them. Respect was afforded to Western- trained doctors and the modern practices of the present. The traditional healers were called all those nasty words that denigrated their dignity. I would like to congratulate the South Africans for consulting the traditional healers, fortune tellers, ventriloquists and many others.

The research tells us that people consult traditional healers more frequently than clinics, doctors and hospitals. The traditional medicine helps them. The treatment they receive from traditional healers gives them hope. The traditional healers treat each and every person patiently. That makes them attractive to their patients. The traditional healers are always available to their patients, day or night, as the need may be. Their service is always available. In relation to the pandemic of Aids, research has shown that traditional medicines help. You know very well that the aloe is available on all the hills and mountains. This is an old traditional plant and it has been discovered that it helps for many ailments.

There are many medicines in pill form that are made of the aloe, which grows all over the place in our country. This species of succulent is known all over the world for its curative properties for people with HIV and Aids. The African potato has been discovered to have properties useful in treating many ailments. There is an imbiza (concoction) that helps many ailments, including high blood pressure, diabetes, backache and many more. All these medicines I have mentioned cause people to consult traditional healers in droves.

This Act will authorise the traditional healers to have access to medical aid, like Western doctors. The traditional healers will be registered with the health council, pay their fees and renew their membership. In this a significant role was played by the Department of Health in this country.

I would like to congratulate our former KwaZulu government for the significant role it played in showing respect for traditional healers. The first organisation that was formed was called the KwaZulu-Natal Nyangas Association. The president was Mr Jamile. Today’s president is Mr Mhlongo. It delights us as the IFP to see what we started in this field being given more powers by the democratic government. We support this Bill because it is good. We support it unanimously!

Before I stand down, I would like to congratulate Nkonyeni on her appointment to the highest position in the name of the IFP. I would like to congratulate Mr Gubhela, Dr Mkhize. I want to say to him: “You managed this department well.” However, we congratulate you. We hope you will do well too. I wish to congratulate hon Mr Mabuyakhulu on his new appointment. Thank you very much. [Time expired.] [Applause.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Hon Members, I would like to urge members to try by all means to utilise the time allocated to them, not to exceed it.] Mr M S GININDA (Mpumalanga): Chairperson, Ministers present, Deputy Ministers, MECs, and hon members of this House, the recognition of traditional healers is a step in the right direction. We welcome this. The setting up of an interim council to control and regulate traditional health practices is most welcome. This will ensure that there is quality in the delivery of traditional health services, so that members of the public who utilise these services are protected. This will enable us to determine policies, especially with regard to education, fees, finance, registration, professional conduct, ethics, disciplinary procedure, scope of the traditional health practice, inter-professional matters and those matters that refer to professional competence. This will further ensure that a professional and ethical standard is maintained and adhered to.

This Bill will encourage research and education into traditional health practice as well as training, which is so important for us, to empower those who were historically disadvantaged.

This Bill also seeks to develop a communication line between the profession and people around the country. This will enable us also to have a profession that follows uniforms norms and standards accepted by the health care profession.

The registry is created in terms of this Bill. This registry would have the registration fees and prescribed requirements. This Bill seeks to promote and encourage the communication between traditional health practitioners and other health professionals. It is most encouraging noting that in fact the historically disadvantaged will benefit immensely from this Bill.

Indeed we deliver the goods. Indeed we take care of those who for many years lived not noticed by the apartheid regime, but now we say the time has come for them also to recognise that they too benefit from democracy. This Bill is warmly welcomed by us who come from Mpumalanga. Thank you.

Ms S H LAMOELA: Thank you, hon Chairperson of the NCOP, the Deputy Chairperson of the NCOP, special delegates from various provinces, MECs of the KwaZulu-Natal Legislature, members of the royal house, colleagues, councillors and members of the public on the gallery. The professional medical fraternity is growing in leaps and bounds with the advent of the Traditional Health Practitioners Bill.

It is to recognise those individuals in the various communities that have been taking care of the sick for centuries. They had been referred to by means of a derogatory word such as witch doctors, as if they were a curse in society. They have played and are still playing a valuable role in communities. No one can wish them away and the new South Africa should recognise them, as this Bill is about to do.

The purpose of this Bill is to establish the interim traditional health practitioners council of South Africa, to provide for registration, training and practices of health practitioners in the Republic and serving and protecting members of the Republic who receive services from the traditional practitioners. The council will, amongst other things, firstly determine the norms and standards with regard to the practice healing; secondly, regulation of the issuing of medical certificates and thirdly facilitate co-operation amongst the traditional healers, medical professionals and the government.

Certain categories of healers are recognised by the Bill. These are herbalists, diviners, traditional birth attendants and traditional surgeons. The interim council will constitute 22 members, some of whom are chairperson, who will be a traditional health practitioner appointed by the Minister; one vice chairperson elected by the members, one from each province and who should have at least have five years’ experience as a health practitioner; one employee from the national Department of Health; one lawyer; one medical practitioner; one pharmacist and three members from community structures. The council will have the authority to levy members on a yearly basis so as to be able to raise funds to ensure that it is self- sufficient. The Treasury will appropriate funds to the council in the beginning.

One issue needs urgent attention. This has to do with medical aid schemes. More and more people believe that they are well covered by their medical aid until they visit a doctor or hospital for major medical attention, in which case they discover that their cover is very limited. You are well covered as long as you do not get ill. How much is this going to cost on the already strained medical aid schemes? Is it not possible to consider a totally new medical aid scheme to address existing problems experienced by medical aid schemes?

We hope the implementation of this Bill, once it becomes an Act, will be smooth. Challenges will always exist, but they will have to be dealt with in the manner in which any confusion will be addressed. Since the Bill recognises the citizens of South Africa to practice their traditional health care, I hope that mechanisms will be put in place once the council is in operation to allow foreign nationals who want to practice in this country to do so. This is due to the fact that we are part of the global village.

This will also address xenophobic tendencies that seem to want to rear their heads from time to time. The members of our communities will now know who is an authentic health practitioner, unlike in past, when they were defrauded by unscrupulous practitioners. The council, once in place, will deal with unscrupulous traditional health practitioners. The DA supports the Bill. I thank you.

Dr R SALOOJEE (Gauteng): Thank you, Chair of Chairs, hon members and also respectable members of the community. I hope that there are at least some traditional healers and practitioners present here in the crowd to be able to understand that as government it is our responsibility to interact with you in the whole process, from the beginning to the end, so it cannot in the end be said that certain groups were left out. I say this because we in Gauteng have an open door policy with my committee, which at any time of the day or night are prepared to contact, discuss and also interact with traditional healers.

One of the arguments they have raised as one of their concerns is that a Bill like this one has been rushed through very quickly. We in the province, as a result of the erratic scheduling of meetings, did not have time to hold public hearings on a larger scale in Gauteng. I do not know what has happened in the other provinces.

I think that I am very happy about this particular Bill. I say so because as a young doctor, when I went into practice, I had to leave the urban area and go into the then far Northern Transvaal, which is part of Limpopo today. I was in Nylstroom, which was the hotbed of the National Party at the time. In that community there was a very respectable and well-known traditional healer who attended not only to the indigenous people and the disadvantaged people of the area but even the whites and other groups who came from far and near to seek assistance from him. We developed a very cordial relationship with one another. When he needed assistance he came to me and when I needed to know something about a patient who had been there I took advice from him to see how best we could achieve the holistic needs of that particular patient.

In that area I think there were three doctors of the apartheid ilk. The one called himself a progressive and the other two appeared to be conservative

• for which they were using a better word. I do not want to use those words of the past because they do not create the kind of environment that we need today. They reported me to the South Africa Medical and Dental Council of the time because the law at the time and the ethical rules stated that a doctor could not interact or act in any consultative of capacity with somebody who was a traditional healer, a sangoma or an inyanga.

As young as I was, I realised the importance of the kind of relationship I had for the simple reason that at the end of the day my patient and his patient should get the best treatment. At the time I then stood up to the medical council and said: “Do your damage, I will continue to do so. I am open to disciplinary action and I will come to your hearings.” [Applause.]

I never know what the reason was, but they never called me. I continued to do what I was supposed to do and, in terms of those days, I suppose, it was a kind of resistance. As far as they were concerned, it was a matter best left untouched.

That was the one story that I wanted to tell you. There is another incident that I want to relate to you. We had a hearing of the traditional healers in 1998 in Gauteng. I chaired the meeting and the House was full of all the traditional healers, the faith healers when one of the prominent doctors from our black community stood up there and said that this was quackery and charlatanism and superstition and we should not give them any hearing. There was total resistance from the people there, as a result of which we found them getting up. Some of our sangomas and inyangas are important people. They virtually got hold of this doctor and wanted to wring his neck. I had to come down and said: You might be medically trained and be a good doctor, but, as a friend, may I suggest that I take you out and see to it that you get home. You might get hurt.

These kinds of contestations continued and we as government have to ensure that we protect the whole process in such a manner that it does not degenerate into a situation of accusations and counter-accusations, especially in view of the fact that there are a number of groups of different traditional healers who would like to be represented and it does appear they have never ever been called to be part of any public participatory process. Furthermore I would also like to say that it is a red-letter day for me that we have now accepted the concept of accepting traditional healers.

As a member of the ANC, I can say that we have not been pressurised into bringing this recognition. It was a policy of the organisation even prior to democracy coming to this country. In our draft health documents, prior to coming into power, the question of traditional healers as part of the integrated and composite organisation of the health system formed part of our policy. As a matter of fact, in Gauteng we are already using them in our HIV/Aids support systems. We are also using them in support systems in the primary health care system. We should all have tremendous respect for the cultural background and cultural needs of all communities. They are as old as the Valley of a Thousand Hills of KwaZulu-Natal, and have been here since as early as when people became psychosocially formalised in societies. These natural health practitioners were at the forefront of society. It is only science that came much, much later. We must recognise and respect and integrate them into our system of health care and continue to have cordial relationships as a continuing exercise. I would like to recommend that our health departments do so at the same time, in a continuous manner, and assist the provinces in order to take these processes further. As I have said, there has been a very serious misunderstanding …[Time expired.][Applause.]

Rev E ADOLPH: Hon Chairperson and all my brothers and sisters, it does not take a genius to realise that we are experiencing a disaster in Africa. Millions and millions of people will die within the next 10 years to come and up to 1% of the population of Africa will be wiped out by this killer disease called HIV and Aids. Everybody will agree with me and will admit that the Western world with its sophisticated biochemical answers could not come up with a cure in their smart and fancy laboratories to cure the disease that we call HIV/Aids. Now is the time for Africa to come up with an African solution for an African problem. It is time that we include the traditional healers as part of our comprehensive approach and we make our people healthy and economically viable. Traditional healers are not strange and alien to us. They are our brothers and sisters.

An HON MEMBER: Is Aids an African problem?

Rev E ADOLPH: I explicitly said that Africa is struggling with HIV and Aids. It is an international phenomenon but the majority of sufferers and victims are here in Africa. I wonder what is wrong with using antiretrovirals and combining it with traditional drugs and supplementing it with good, nutritious food. Why are we scared to use this to heal our people? I don’t understand the fear. There will not be chaos. I can assure you. People will be healed. I would like to challenge the President and the Minister of Health to go out and convince all those people who have the money to invest and come up with a cure for HIV and Aids. Maybe Africa will surprise the whole world. They will come up with a comprehensive health system. Therefore, the ID supports the Bill. Thank you.

Mrs A N D QIKANI: Mhlalingaphambili, abaphathiswa abakhoyo bonke, eBhunga leSizwe laMaphondo amalungu ePalamente yalapha kwaZulu-Natala, amakhosi, bonke abantu nabaphaya kwigalari, ndingathi nam ndiyanibulisa. Umthetho ophambi kwethu ngoku ubonisa ukuba amagqirha namaxhwele neengcibi zinovuyo olukhulu namhlanje. Abantu abaninzi baseMzantsi Afrika bathembele kakhulu kumaxhwele namagqirha. Abanye abaninzi bafuna nje ukufumana ulwazi lwabo bahambe baye kulusebenzisa kwezinye izinto. (Translation of isiXhosa paragraphs follows.)

Mrs A N D QIKANI: [Chairperson, hon Ministers present here, hon members of the NCOP, members of the KwaZulu-Natal Legislature, the traditional leadership, members of the public and even those seated in the gallery, I greet you all.

The Bill that we are debating today shows that traditional health practitioners and the traditional circumcision surgeons appreciate that.]

This reality places a moral and constitutional responsibility upon government to properly regulate traditional health care. Many across the country and in this province will attest to the fact that traditional healers are an integral part of their personal health care decisions. In fact …Kwezinye iindawo, ingakumbi emaphandleni, amaxhwele namagqirha ngawona anamandla ngaphezulu koogqirha besilungu. [… the vast majority of the people of South Africa, especially those who are based in rural areas, rely more on traditional health practitioners than on Western-trained medical practitioners.]

The benefit of the legal framework created by the ill falls into two broad categories. They are to the benefit of the population.

Okunye, abantu besinNtu, amagqirha kufanele ukuba akwazi ukuxhamla kwiimedical aid ukuze babe nakho nokukhupha iziqinisekiso zokuthi xa eye kuxilonga umntu amnike neentsuku ukuze aphumle ekhaya angadibani nabantu.

Kukho izifo ezininzi ezinobunzima xa zinyangwa, kuze kude kufikelele ithuba lokuba ugqirha ofunde eyunivesithi negqirha elithwasileyo badibane baphungulelane ngolwazi ukwenzela into yokuba isizwe sethu sihlume. Lilonke I-UDM iyayixhasa le iBhilil. (Translation of isiXhosa paragraphs follows.)

[Traditional health practitioners need also to be incorporated into the national health system so that they could enjoy the benefits of medical aid schemes, which would also grant them the right to issue medical certificates should they wish to book their clients off. There are diseases that are difficult to treat, which would need co- operation by and sharing of ideas between traditional health practitioners and Western-trained doctors in their efforts to solve the problem and or cure a particular case so that our nation could grow. The UDM supports the Bill.]

Mr O M THETJENG: Chairperson, I just want to start by making a correction. The first speaker referred to Limpopo in a specific manner. And I am very sorry, but those statements cannot be attributed to Limpopo. Maybe in the then “Noord-Transvaal” [Northern Transvaal] perhaps, but today we refer to Limpopo as the Eden of Africa and therefore it should remain as such. I would like to correct that. Some members have been there for a long time and things have changed since these time before 1994.

We are admired by many nations in the world for having managed transition from the oppressive laws that existed to the present situation enjoyed by all of us. The majority of people were not allowed to make choices but were compelled to comply with the laws that did not recognise the citizens. Today we are debating a Bill before this House that predominantly deals with the lives of our black people when it comes to medicinal issues. Though there is a trend that is developing, indicating that more and more and various communities are also being exposed to this practice.

Rakgolokhuku waka o be ale ngaka ya bana - o be a sepela maeto a matelele ka karirki ya dipokolo, e be e le ge a be a thuša bao ba bego ba lwala. Bjale, ka ge re tseba, ngwana yo mongwe le yo mongwe yo a sa tšwago go belegwa o fela a swarwa-swarwa ke malwetše a go se fele. Maphelo a bona a ka gare ga matsogo a tšona dingaka tše tša bana. Naga ya gabo rena ge e nale molao goba melao yeo e thlokomelago lefapha le la bongaka, molawana wo o tlile mo pele ga rena - re a o amogela bjale ka porofense ya Limpopo empa dinthlakgolo tšeo di tšweletšwago ke molao wo ke tše dilatelago:

Hlomamišo goba peakanyo ya Lekgotlataolo la Motšwaoswere la Dingaka tša
Afrika-Borwa;


Go bebofatša  ngwadišo, go ithutela le phekolo mo nageng ya Afrika-
Borwa;


  Thušo le tšhireletšo ya dikgathlego tša balwetši bao ba etelago
  dingaka tša
  mohuta wo.

Malao wo o tla laola le go ama bao ka šomelago ka mo nageng ya Afrika- Borwa; dingaka le baithuti ba bongaka ka mo nageng ya Afrika-Borwa. Molao wo o tla dumelela mehuta yeo e latelago ya dingaka:

  Ngaka ye tšhupša – ke dingaka tšeo di tsebago mešunkwane ya go
  fapafapana go ya ka bolwetši bja motho, ga ba šomiše ditaola.


  Phšafša – ba go laola pele go bona gore ana o nale bolwetši bja mohuta
  mang le gore bohlolwa ke eng pele ba ka go fa kalafi. Bothata bja
  bongaka bja mohuta wo ke gore  go fela go solwa maloko a malapa goba
  baagišani gore ke bona ba bakelago madimabe goba bolwetši.


  Ngaka ya basadi – bao ke bao ba thušago go belegiša basadi goba
  bahumagadi ba rena.


  Thipana – tše ke dingaka tša dikoma. Eupša go nale bao molao wo o sa
  ba akaretšego, ba bitšwa baphološwa – bare ke barapeledi ba semoya. Polelo ere dithuto tša bona ke tša semoya kudu e bile go tla ba boima go ba fa kaalokemo ya thuto ya bona.  Go tlaba le lekgotlataolo la Afrika-Borwa la dingaka gomme le tla thlokomela tše dilatelago magareng ga tše dingwe:


  Go ingwdišetša ga dingaka ka moka ka mo nageng ya Afrika-Borwa;
  Dingaka di tla dumelelwa feela go ingwadišetša ge feela ge ba šomile
  mengwaga e mehlano;


       Go laola kaabo ya boingwadišotšhupo bjo bo laetša gore motho o
       be a lwala;


       Go bea melawana  ya taolo ya motheo  ya mašeleng;

Kemedi ya lekgotlataolo la Afrika-Borwa la dingaka le tlaba ka tsela ye e latelago;

  Maloko a tla ba masomepedi- pedi; la ba le modulasetulo; motlatša
  modulasetulo; kemedi ya ba senyane go tšwa porofenseng ye ngwe le ye
  ngwe; mošomedi wa kgoro ya maphelo; setsebi sa molao, bjalobjalo. Bao ba sa dumelelwago go ba ka gare ga lekgotlataolo la dingaka tša setšo tša Afrika-Borwa, ke bao ba latelago;

  Motho yo e sego modudi wa naga ya Afrika-Borwa;
  Yoo a kilego a swarwa a bonwa molato gomme a lahlelwa kgolegong ntle
  le kotlo ya tefelo;
  Leloko la palamente goba mokanselara;
  Leloko la mokgathlo wa dipolotiki, bjalobjalo.

Maloko a lekgotlataolo la Afrika-Borwa a tla swanela ke go lefela ditšhelete ngwaga ka ngwaga bjalo ka maloko. Palemente ya Bosetšhaba e tla lefela mašeleng a tshepedišo ya lekgotla le go fihlela le ikemela ka bo lona.

Re leboga go ba gona ga molao wo ka gore o kgona go fediša bofora bjo bo felago bo eba gona ditšhabeng tša borena.

Rena bjale ka porofense ya Limpopo re dumelelana le molao wo. (Translation of Sepedi paragraphs follows.)

[My great-grandfather was a traditional healer specialising in children’s illnesses - he used to travel long distances on a donkey-cart, busy helping those who were sick. As we know, each and every newborn baby normally suffers from different diseases. Their lives depend entirely on these traditional healers specialising in children’s illnesses.

If there is a law or laws that caters for this sector of traditional healing, then this Bill is good - as Limpopo province we support this Bill, and it highlights the following:

The establishment or arrangement of an interim Board of Administration
for South African Traditional Healers;


making registration, training and healing in South Africa easier;


the assistance and protection of the interests of sick people who are
consulting such traditional healers.

This law will regulate and affect those working in South Africa, healers and trainee-healers in South Africa. This law will include the following types of healers:

  Herbalists - these are healers with knowledge of different herbs,
  depending on the person’s illness. They do not use knucklebones.
  Then there are traditional healers – those who use knucklebones first
  to diagnose the type of illness and its cause before giving one
  treatment.The problem with this kind of traditional healing is that
  family members or neighbours are normally blamed as being the cause of
  bad luck or illness.

Then there are gynaecologists, who are those assisting women, or our wives, when giving birth.

The circumcision surgeons are healers in circumcision schools.There
are, however, those called born-again Christians who are not covered by
this Bill. It is said that their teachings are too spiritual and it
will be difficult to regulate their teachings.

There will be a Board of Administration for South-African Traditional Healers and it will cater for, amongst others:

the registration of all traditional healers in South Africa.
Traditional healers will only be allowed to register after five years
of service.
It is to regulate the issuing of medical certificates to prove that the
person was sick
to regulate basic administrative and financial laws.

The composition of the South African council of traditional healers will take the following format:

There will be twenty-two members, a Chairperson, Deputy Chairperson,
nine delegates from each of the provinces, a Health department
official, a legal expert, etc.

The following are not allowed to belong to the Administration Board of the South African Traditional Healers:

Anyone who is not a South African citizen; anyone who was arrested,
convicted and sentenced to prison without the option of a fine; a
member of Parliament or a councillor, or a member of a political party,
etc.

Members of this South African board will have to pay yearly premiums.

The national Parliament will pay the administrative costs of the board until the board can do it on its own. We say thank you for the enactment of this legislation because it brings to an end the fraudulent acts that take place in our society.

As Limpopo we support this Bill.]

Ri khou livhuwa vhathu vhothe vha Afurika Tshipembe. Ndaa. [We thank all South Africans. Thank you.]

Mr J O TLHAGALE: Hon Minister, Deputy Minister, hon members, ladies and gentlemen on the gallery, the Bill under discussion is the culmination of a long struggle by prospective traditional health practitioners for their recognition. For decades they were not only not recognised by those who were in power but were even called names, some of which were derogatory, to say the least. However, in 1999 procedures were set in motion that have culminated in the tabling of this Bill, which has already passed the test in the first House. In the process of the creation of the earth not only precious stones were reserved for us for later exploitation, but also herbs and bulbs were grown, which, if used by those who know them, can heal and sustain the human body. The Bill establishes an Interim Traditional Health Practitioners Council for which the term of office will be three years. Its constitution specifies a whole range of functions, including powers, funding and lines of accountability, to mention but a few. This council will be headed by a registrar appointed by the Minister, in consultation with the council. He would be responsible for registration matters and the keeping of appropriate registers for registered traditional health practitioners.

The Bill provides further that any person may lay a complaint with the council about the way in which a registered traditional health practitioner treated her or him. Such complaint would then be investigated and disciplinary action would be taken against the offender, if found guilty. Clear procedures are set out in connection with any inquiry and relevant matters, together with penalties that may be imposed. The Bill also provides that the Minister, after consultation with the council, may make regulations relating to a wide range of matters connected with it. An interesting provision which is out of the ordinary is clause 47(4), which provides that the Minister must, not less than three months before any regulation is made under subsection 1(a), publish the regulations in the Gazette, together with a notice declaring his or her intention to make such regulation. [Time expired.] The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES (Mr T S SETONA): Hon Chairperson, Deputy Minister of Health, hon Minister of Safety and Security, hon members, hon special delegates, traditional practitioners from the province of KwaZulu-Natal, friends and comrades, today is a historic day in the life of our new democracy. We feel very privileged to celebrate the triumph of our cultural traditions in KwaZulu-Natal, South Africa’s garden province. We are also privileged because we know that KwaZulu-Natal has the largest population in the country with approximately nine million people and therefore, in all likelihood, with the largest population of traditional health practitioners. The government of the day, through the passage of the Traditional Health Practitioners Bill, will be sending a clear message of support to our people who continue to use traditional medicines to treat their medical ailments.

As the ANC government, we are saying that our cultural medicines used by the majority of our people in all areas, not only in rural areas, are as important as the medicines used by doctors who have studied medicine at universities across the country. These traditional medical practitioners are found in almost every community and provide a valuable service. They are there even when no other medical services are available and some of their work has sustained communities through outbreaks of quite serious illnesses. The provinces themselves asked the government in public hearings, both in 1998 and 2004, for help to regulate this sector. In 1998 the Select Committee on Social Services and the Portfolio Committee on Health jointly reported on the acknowledgement for a need of a council for traditional health practitioners. They wanted this council to facilitate co- operation amongst traditional health practitioners, medical professionals and government.

Today this Bill brings to life the Interim Traditional Health Practitioners Council of South Africa, which was envisaged then. The interim council will be a professional council, constituted in the same way that the Health Professions Council of South Africa is constituted. Every medical practitioner needs to be registered at this council in order to be recognised. The number of members of this council will be 22. It comprises of one traditional health practitioner appointed by the Minister as chairperson. The vice-chairperson is elected from the members of the council. Nine traditional health practitioners, one from each province, and who have been in practice for at least five years, one from the Department of Health, one with legal expertise and knowledge, and one medical practitioner from the Health Professions Council of South Africa, one pharmacist, a member of the SA Pharmacy Council, and three community representatives and one representative for each category of traditional health practitioners, as had been mentioned by earlier speakers. At the same public hearings provinces said that they wanted this council to set norms and standards with regard to the profession and begin to formulate regulations and guidelines for traditional health practitioners.

This Bill takes these concerns on board and contained in the objectives of the council are the requirements of the council, among others, to ensure quality of health services within the traditional health practice, to protect and serve the interests of the public who use their services and to promote and maintain appropriate ethical and professional standards required from traditional health practitioners, to promote and develop interest in traditional health practices by encouraging research, education and training and, finally, to ensure that traditional health practitioners comply with universally accepted health care norms and values amongst other things. All provinces, without exception, agreed that traditional health practitioners should be included in medical aid schemes as they currently exist and should be able to charge a set fee, as well as provide a mechanism to prevent the abuse of medical certificates. We don’t want a case where a traditional health practitioner diagnoses a problem and, with the collusion of the patient, agrees to put a patient off for a whole year or an equally unrealistic period. This trend has been prevalent under the current medical profession. Clause 42(2) says that any traditional health practitioner who, in respect of any traditional health services rendered by him or her, claims payment from any person must be subject to the provisions of the Medical Schemes Act of 1998 and where applicable furnish the patient with a detailed account within a reasonable period.

The Bill asks that fees must be subject to the scrutiny of the council and should not be unreasonably high. Patients are given the right to have a detailed account of services rendered if they dispute the claims from the traditional health practitioners. They may appeal to the council within three months of receipt of the account. The ANC is also aware that there are a great number of people who are ready to exploit our people. They are always looking for a new way in which to con our people out of their hard- earned money. I am appealing to the public to become familiar with this Bill, because you are the eyes and ears of the nation.

The Council will be able to conduct an inquiry into any complaint, allegation or charge of professional misconduct brought by a member of the public or other professionals. If found guilty, depending on the severity of the crime, the offender can be reprimanded, cautioned, suspended or removed from the register or pay a fine, or pay for the restitution, should the criminal offence falls within the parameters of the law.

This Bill is very strict about the discipline governing the work of practitioners. Chapter 4 of the Bill goes into some detail as to how the disciplinary inquiries are to be conducted, who may lay complaints, the method of investigation and entering of premises of suspected wrongdoers and other procedures. We have tried to be as inclusive as possible in this regard. We know that this Bill is a stepping stone in creating a formally structured environment for traditional health practitioners and it is in accordance with the greatest assembly of our people that converged in 2002 at the University of Stellenbosch, namely the fifty-first national conference of the ANC that resolved, amongst others, that in pursuit of promoting public health systems, the ANC resolved to integrate the traditional health system and the military health system into a public health system. I think the adoption of this Bill this afternoon is a step in the right direction in taking that resolution forward. We will all remember that ten years ago a dark cloud fell upon South Africa and its people with the passing away of two giant revolutionaries and leaders of our liberation movement, the late Comrade Oliver Tambo and the late Comrade Chris Hani. Accordingly, on behalf of my province, the Free State province, and the ANC, the passage of this Bill by this august House today represents the most fitting honour to the cause of social transformation to which Oliver Tambo and Chris Hani dedicated their entire lives. I thank you. [Applause.]

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HEALTH: Chairperson of Committees and hon members, I just want to express our thanks from the side of the Department of Health for the overwhelming support of this Bill from members of this House. I want to thank the various chairpersons of the various health committees of the nine provinces who have spoken in support and who have enriched this Bill. In particular, let me start off with the hon Masilo, the Chairperson of the Select Committee on Social Services in the NCOP, who congratulated the Department of Health on bringing this Bill into being and acknowledged that has been long in the making, since the report of 1998. I want to thank MEC Konyeni for the contributions made. I am sure that the legal team would look into the issue raised about transitional arrangements for those who need to register, in order that they may be able to practice while they are waiting to register.

The balance between the preservation of our environment and the use of herbs is strongly included in the policies of our government. In Limpopo there has already been a launch of such a partnership between health and environmental affairs. Concerning the point you made about the protection of intellectual property, I am sure that is what this Bill is also aiming to achieve. Thanks for raising the issue of unlawful and antisocial practices that are said to be traditional. I am sure this Bill is also aiming to root out that. I am happy that the Minister of Safety and Security heard about this and I am sure he will lock up all those people who practice that.

My sister and hon member Madlala-Magubane, I am sure the Indian experience has much to offer us. Indeed, thank you very much for sharing your experiences in the committee when you visited India and China. We have much to learn from them. Hon Vantura, you acknowledged the past and how it has contributed to what we have today. You mentioned that the garden was the medical aid. Thank you for your input.

Hon Vilakazi, I think the issue you raised about ensuring the safety of our people is very strongly made in the Bill itself. It is the essence of this Bill, among other things, to ensure that our people are protected from unsafe practices. In terms of clause 47(1)(j) the Minister, after consultation with the council, is empowered to make regulations relating to traditional medicines in order to protect the public and to ensure safety of use, administration or application. I want to comment briefly – and we had very good contributions – on the issues raised by the DA regarding foreign citizens. Indeed, foreign citizens will be allowed to practice. The Bill aims to establish a regulatory framework within which the council can regulate the profession of traditional health practitioners. The council will, inter alia, deal with issues of registration of traditional practitioners. I am sure it will look at those people who come in from outside. I am sure that you’d agree with us that it would be better able to regulate what we are familiar with.

Finally, members, in the interest of time, I should just like to comment on the hon Adolph’s statement. The problem with your input is that it carried such a negative message and, in fact, I won’t be surprised if people summarized your input as the input of a prophet of doom. What you were saying about the need for research to see how nutrition can assist with the management of Aids is what we are already doing in this country. I think you should perhaps be congratulating the President and the Minister of Health and the government for doing exactly what you say we must do. Perhaps you can assist us, hon member, in persuading those from the developed world to listen to Africa and what is coming out of Africa. You painted Africa as a dark continent. We are moving away from Afropessimism. Let met conclude by thanking all the provinces for all the contributions made.

Finally, I wish to echo the hon Ngonyeni, who thanked hon Mkhize for the foundation laid in this province. I also want to pick up the point made by the hon Saloojee that the ANC has been under no pressure from others to put this on our agenda. It has been on our agenda for a very long time. I am sure Dr Mkhize will attest to this because the work that he has done has assisted to drive this process forward. Hon Vilakazi, I am sure the former government of this province did make a contribution but it was adding to the ANC, wich has always been at the forefront. The ANC is the oldest organisation in the country and was doing it already. Thank you. [Applause.]

Debate concluded.

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: I shall now put the question. The question is that the Bill be agreed to. As it is done in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution, I shall first ascertain whether all delegation heads are present to cast their votes. In accordance with section 71 I shall first allow the provinces the opportunity to make their declarations of vote if they so wish. Is there any province that would like to make a declaration of vote? I take it that there is none.

We shall now proceed to voting on the question. I shall do this in alphabetical order per province. Delegation heads must please indicate to the Chair whether they vote in favour or against or abstain from voting. Eastern Cape?

Ms B M DLULANE: Iyaxhasa. [We support.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Free State?

Mr S T SETONA: Free State votes in favour.

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Gauteng?

Mr E M SOGONI: Ke a rona. [Support.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: KwaZulu-Natal?

Mr Z C NTULI: KwaZulu-Natal iyawuvumela. [KwaZulu-Natal supports.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITEES: Limpopo?

Ms H MATLANYANE: Limpopo nidyadumela. [Limpopo supports.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Mpumalanga?

Ms M P THEMBA: Mpumalanga iyasigela. [Mpumalanga supports.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Northern Cape?

Ms P HOLLANDER: Ke a rona. [Support.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: North West?

Mr Z S KOLWENI: North West in favour.

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Western Cape?

Mr F ADAMS: Western Cape supports.

Bill accordingly agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.

PROTECTION OF CONSTITUTIONAL DEMOCRACY AGAINST TERRORIST AND RELATED
                           ACTIVITIES BILL

            (Consideration of Bill and of Report thereon)

The MINISTER OF SAFETY AND SECURITY: Hon Chair of Committees and hon members of the NCOP, I am today like a traveller who, just before arrival at his destination, sits down and looks at the road he has travelled. I am saying this because I would like to indicate to the hon members that under the circumstances I am going to speak from the heart.

Hon Chair of Committees, I would want to believe that the members would agree with me that it is rather unusual that a Bill that receives endorsement from a particular legislative structure and goes to another then comes back a second time to the initial structure. That is unusual. This had to be so because we are enjoined by our own democratic processes to create space for every person in South Africa to participate in the processes that we have in order for us collectively to define the programmes that we require. This will enable us to move further together as we build this new society under democratic conditions. We have therefore allowed for an elaborate process of interaction with all role-players to ensure that in the end all of us have an appreciation of what we are trying to do in South Africa.

This is also part and parcel of the experience that the great majority of the members of this House are familiar with. The practice has always been that it is necessary for the people to speak to one another, so that in the end we all arrive at a position that will speak to our hopes and our dreams.

There was once a moment in my life in 1985, when I attended the ANC Consultative Conference as part of the delegation from uMkhonto weSizwe’s camps. I had a chat with the then secretary-general of the ANC, Comrade Alfred Nzo. I was unhappy about the slowness of the processes of debate in our plenaries. I was under the impression that the chairperson was unnecessarily allowing long periods of time for people to speak in that plenary. I thought that what was needed to be done, in the name of time, was to cut short some presentations made. I thought they were either duplications or some of the people were completely out of order. This was his response to me. He said that in the first instance some of the people who were there have never before been to an ANC gathering of that nature. Therefore that was a learning curve for them. It was necessary for us to allow them to grow into these processes. He also said that I should understand that we were at a conference and that we wanted to learn from every one of the delegates present. Everyone there should speak so that we could have had an appreciation of what the people wanted. This was necessary to be done there. We have, in the fullness of time, understood the necessity for allowing as many people as possible to speak on the processes that unfold as part and parcel of our democratic practice.

Nobody can claim monopoly on wisdom. It is that wisdom that is allowing us to invite as many as possible suggestions from across a range of people and this was the case relevant to this particular Bill. We had to do this, understanding, firstly, that there are many South Africans who are suspicious of anything that relates to law enforcement, particularly in a Bill of the nature of the one before us today. We should understand the past from which we have recently emerged as a country. Under the special branch structure of the past, any Bill that sought to deal with the activities of the majority of our people coming from the structures of law enforcement was always a piece of legislation that was not supported by the great majority of the people. The suspicion therefore that was directed at the current Bill had to do with that past. We therefore had to create conditions where we allowed interaction between people of various kinds in order for us to ensure that in the end we have a majority view on the Bill. It is always necessary to do this in human interaction because it is not the articulate way in which issues are raised that in the end carries the day. It is the ability to carry as many people as possible with regard to the views that a person expresses. I am happy therefore that we did allow for this Bill to come such a long way to this point where we are today, to allow for that kind of interaction.

I must at this stage express appreciation to members of this House for their patience. At times during our discussions on this Bill there were some submissions and views that were irritating and where some people, according to our understanding, merely wanted to delay the passing of this Bill. Since we have come from the kind of tradition that I have spoken about, we exercised a lot of patience. This is characteristic of our people who were part of the revolutionary processes that brought about the liberation that we have today and of those struggling masses that were at the core of that programme to exercise patience. We know about patience that is underpinned by hope and hope which is the vehicle of our dream, which is defining what is happening in South Africa at this moment. Many are our people who do not themselves have houses, but when they see that one house is being built for their neighbour says: “I now know that I am also going to have a house. I’ve seen one house being built by government for my neighbour.” It is these very people who, when they see one house that is being electrified, will say: “Electricity is also going to come to me. I am hopeful. As it has been delivered to my neighbour, it will be delivered to me too.” You displayed in no uncertain terms that patience as we deal with matters of this kind.

At this point I would also want to register appreciation to all those role- players who were suspicious of this Bill in the beginning and who during our interactions changed their views and have therefore given their endorsement of the Bill. This is how it should be, as we put together the foundation stones for a better South Africa. As we strengthen and consolidate the springboard we have in the end to move together towards a future that must be better than our past. I therefore do want to register that appreciation to the members of this House.

I want to mention at this time specifically the role of Cosatu. You will remember that you had endorsed this Bill and it was on its way to the National Assembly for finalisation when there was a hiccup. We felt that we needed to engage with that hiccup. It was not going to help us to impose even a good Bill on anybody without explaining what we wanted to do and how it would be done. We therefore engaged in various sessions with Cosatu, discussing matters that they thought were not conducive regarding the current situation in South Africa. I am happy to say that those matters that were looked at by our select committee and the Bill we are bringing before you therefore embody even those thoughts that have gone into this. I am happy that this is the way we in South Africa are engaging our people in the passing of the laws that are designed to govern our country. Without that kind of participation there is no way in which they are indeed going to be part of the process of governance, whereas it is part and parcel of our principle that the people shall govern.

In the circumstances I want to suggest that we should allow the Bill once more - as you did that time - to go the National Assembly towards finalisation. It is a Bill that it is necessary to arm with the necessary instruments for us to fight against terrorism. It is aligned to the conventions and protocols of the UN and a Bill that talks to the conventions of the African Union. It is a Bill that will help us further to establish processes that will lead to the safety and security of our own people in South Africa; a Bill that, in the circumstances, is a necessary Bill to have. I thank you. [Applause.]

Kgoshi M L MOKOENA: Thank you, Chairperson. Thank you, hon Minister for the role played in making sure that this Bill is finalised during the current session. I know it was not easy, but he managed. Our thanks go to Dr Jacobs, who was always ready to engage the select committee. If I had my way, I’d ask the Minister to promote you once more.

Chairperson, it is not my intention to touch on all the clauses contained in this Bill. I would only touch on a few issues and my four colleagues will do the rest. Members will recall, as was rightly stated by the Minister, that this Bill was dealt with in the last Parliament. Unfortunately, it was not finalised because of some logistical and technical problems to allow for further consultation. Just to give a brief background: The Bill was referred to the select committee of the NCOP by the portfolio committee of the NA. We considered it and proposed a few amendments. Unfortunately the amendments were not accepted by the colleagues in the other House. To prove that this dynamic select committee was correct, the hon Minister and the executive, as he rightly put it, referred the Bill back for further consultation. This is a clear message that you undermine the NCOP at your own risk. It is pleasing to note that the very same amendments that were proposed by the select committee are now brought back and are accepted by all role-players. [Applause.]

Let me simply add what this Bill is about. If this was called the Antiterrorism Bill, as it was before it was transformed into the Protection of Constitutional Democracy Against Terrorist and Related Activities Bill, when this becomes an Act, people who engage in any terrorist activities will be prosecuted and dealt with harshly. It makes it an offence for any organisation to engage itself in any terrorist activity with the aim of undermining the authority of the state. It will be an offence for any person who will try to destroy the economy of the country using some terrorist activities. It also deals with people or organisations that receive funding that will be used to undermine the state. It again deals with people or organisations or some individuals who fund other people who want to use some terrorist activities to undermine our country.

This Bill also criminalises the use of explosives. It is an offence to threaten to cause an explosion or place explosives which might threaten lives or destroy property. Anybody who thinks he or she can use explosives for terrorist activities will be prosecuted in terms of this Bill. There are so many things contained in this Bill. I just touched on a few issues because I know this Bill is familiar to many of us.

Let us look and think what the Boeremag Trial is all about. Those bombings in Soweto are still fresh in our minds. Who can forget the bombing that took place in Planet Hollywood in Cape Town’s V & A Waterfront. Just imagine that people could even go all out to bomb a church in Bronkhorstspruit. Let us think of those many bombing incidents that took place around Cape Town. We lost many lives there. This Bill enables the state to deal decisively with people who engage in such terrorist activities.

Of the many amendments proposed by the select committee, the one that had caused some hullabaloo was the definition of “terrorist activity”. After those consultations, in which the Minister was also involved, we tried to redefine it by taking into consideration the concerns raised by Cosatu, as was said by the hon Minister. Thank you, Mr Minister. You are a star. [Applause.]

Industrial actions and such are no longer to be regarded as terrorist activities. I am happy to confirm what I said about the hon Minister to this Council: All is forgiven. We are now singing the same song. You, the members of the select committee, have once more demonstrated that whatever you are doing, you put your country first. Even the newcomer in the committee, the hon Loe, adjusted so quickly and she is participating constructively in this committee. Thanks, colleague Loe. I am so proud to have such dedicated members of this committee as you. At times we had to meet at awkward hours. Last Monday we had to start our meeting at 19h00, and you won’t believe when it was concluded. Thanks once more to you, my colleagues. It is true that when the going gets tough, the tough get going. On that note let me stop and allow my colleagues to come in and further clarify some issues in this Bill. Small minds monopolise the talking. Great minds, like myself, monopolise the listening. Therefore, because I belong to the latter group, let me sit down and listen. Let us support this Bill. [Applause.]

Mr D A WORTH: Siyabonga. [Thank you.] Dumelang. [Good afternoon.] It is good to be here today in KwaZulu-Natal, especially in this part which we know as Zululand with its beautiful rolling hills and valleys. Thank you to all the people of Empangeni for their kind hospitality to us here for the last few days. After moving from Empangeni some 24 years ago, it is good to see that some things have still not changed. The paper Zululand Observer still exists. It brings back very fond memories of this part of the world.

Hon Minister, Acting Chairperson, the Protection of Constitutional Democracy against Terrorist and Related Activities Bill endeavours to prevent and combat terrorist and other related activities. It also provides for so-called conventional offences, that is, to give effect to international agreements dealing with terrorist activities such as the UN Security Council resolutions, which are binding on member states. The Bill also provides for measures to prevent and combat the financing of terrorism and to effect investigative procedures for matters connected therewith.

This Bill was extensively debated in the National Assembly and was eventually forwarded to the NCOP, where further extensive discussions and inputs were made by the private financial sector, universities and the labour unions. The labour movement was of course concerned that their rights to hold rallies or protest marches could, in terms of this Bill, be construed as an act of terrorism if matters took a turn for the worst. These fears have now been allayed by amending the relevant sections of this Bill to read:

  Any act which is committed in pursuance of any advocacy, protest,
  dissent or industrial action and which does not intend the harm
  contemplated in the definition shall not be regarded as a terrorist
  activity within the meaning of that definition.

This, together with various other amendments should allay any fears about the intention of the Bill so far as the labour movements are concerned. The private financial sector, namely the banks, however, were also concerned about the implications and severe penalties with regard to the reporting procedures in connection with money laundering and related activities. The amendments now make provision, amongst others, that no action, whether criminal or civil, against a person complying in good faith with the intention of the Act and a person who has made, initiated or contributed to a report concerning a suspicion with regard to a terrorist activity, shall be compelled to give evidence in criminal procedures arising from such a report.

Secondly, the person in terms of clause 4 of the Bill may continue with and carry out any transaction to which such a suspicion relates, unless directed not to proceed. All other requirements having been complied with will be attempts so as not to alert the suspected money-launderers or terrorists. A police officer may also direct that a transaction is not to proceed, but the period may not exceed five days.

We are of the opinion that all the various concerns of the stakeholders and institutions, have, as far as possible, been incorporated in this important Bill. I would like to thank all the officials and persons who made their input. It is of some urgency now that this House approves this legislation and the DA therefore supports this Bill. [Applause.]

Mr M A MZIZI: Chairperson, Minister, Deputy Minister and colleagues, South Africa’s new anti-terrorism legislation comes at an opportune time, when the democracies of the global community are under threat of terrorism and its related activities. It is therefore critical that South Africa, alongside other democracies of the world, takes legislative measures that are precautionary and crucial to protect and save lives, as well as to safeguard the principle of democracy. Consequently it can be said that any country that is in favour of stability has to heed the warning and size of a presence and the reality of terrorism and its related activities, as well as its prospective to sow destruction and devastation in the world.

South Africa, as a young and developing democracy, needs to be protected at all costs. We cannot allow any forces to destroy and derail the progress made over the last 10 years in South Africa. It is therefore imperative for us to realise that no country is immune to destruction and that only adequate precautions can safeguard nations that remain alert at all times and never undermine any potential threat. In the South African context democratic consolidation and stability could easily be compromised by terrorist activities. South Africa could easily be put in a vulnerable position by terrorism if we do not heed any warning of terrorism. If an economically stable and strong country such as the United States of America could fall victim to terrorism, then we must know that we must take seriously the aspect of security in a country. Human life is the most precious asset in the world.

The lives of people are therefore vital for continuation and survival in the world. The threat to human life through malicious acts that only seek self-gain has to be curbed. Terrorism has been identified as one major threat to human life and democratic stability. It therefore has to be treated with the condemnation that it deserves.

This legislation will align South African law with regional and international obligations to prevent terrorism. While ensuring that the country has the necessary legislative tools to address domestic terrorism as a threat, this piece of legislation definitely is fundamental for the prevention of terrorism in the country and will go a long way in terms of keeping security services focused on the important issue of protecting the country from all evil coming from outside forces.

All that is left to do at this stage is to seek out perpetrators who are threatening peace and stability in South Africa and root out all elements related to terrorism in order to ensure long-term security and stability in the country.

Mhlawumbe ngingake ngichaze nje kancane ngawo ama-outside forces lawa engikhuluma ngawo. Abaningi bazocabanga ukuthi phela ubushokobezi yilokhu esiye sikubone abantu bezibopha ngeziqhumane mhlawumbe bangene ezindaweni zokungcebeleka nasezindaweni okusuke kukhona kuzo isixuku sabantu bafike bazisakaze ngalezo ziqhumane bese kufa abantu abaningi. Ezinye izindlela zabo ubushokobezi - ngikhuluma lapha ngama-outside forces, abantu abaye baxhase labo bantu abafuna ukubasebenzisa ezintweni ezithile zobushokobezi – ukuthi baye bafike ezindaweni lapho bazi khona ukuthi … (Translation of isiZulu paragraph follows.)

[Maybe I can explain a little bit about the “outside forces” I am talking about. Most people will think that terrorism is when we see people attaching suicide bombs to themselves and maybe entering places of entertainment, or places where there are usually a crowd of people, and they blow themselves up with these bombs and a lot of people die. There are other kinds of terrorism; I am talking about the “outside forces”, people who use the people who want to help those engaged in terrorism. However, they … go to places where they know that …]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Hon member, I am afraid your time has expired.

Mr M A MZIZI: Saphela kabi isikhathi madoda ngingakaqedi. [The time is up before I finished.]

Mr F ADAMS: Chairperson, I just want to find out or ask my DA colleagues the question. I see that they are seeking shelter with the Western Cape. I don’t know if they realise that since 14 April 2004 the Western Cape is under ANC control and it is better run than when it was under DA control. [Applause.]

Agb Voorsitter, agb Minister en lede van die Huis, die wetgewing wat vandag voor hierdie Huis dien, is lank reeds nodig. As ‘n mens kyk na die geskiedenis van die wetgewing en die pad wat dit geloop het, moet mens met bewondering staan teenoor ons wetskrywers en ons regering. Ons kan as deel van die globale samelewing samewerking gee met hierdie soort wetgewing. Die tekortkominge en huidige behoeftes word aangespreek in hierdie wetgewing. Ek wil nie die Huis verveel met al die wysigings wat reeds deur die Minister en vorige sprekers genoem is nie.

Terrorisme het wêreldwyd ‘n vyand geword, wat nuwe en verbeterde wetgewing vereis. Dit het nodig geword om hierdie euwel hok te slaan en Suid-Afrika moet ook sy regmatige rol speel in die stryd met hierdie wetgewing. Ek wil die Minister, die lede en die sekretariaat van die komitee bedank vir hulle harde werk tydens die debatvoering en tydens die komiteesessies oor hierdie wetgewing. Die Nuwe NP steun hierdie wetgewing. Ek dank u. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraph follows.)

[Hon Chairperson, hon Minister, members of the House, the legislation before this House today has been necessary for some time now. If one looks at the history of the legislation and the road it has travelled, one should stand in awe of our legislators and our government. As part of the global society we can co-operate with regard to this type of legislation. The shortcomings and current needs are being addressed in this legislation. I do not wish to bore the House with all the amendments that have already been mentioned by the Minister and the previous speakers. Terrorism has become an enemy worldwide, which requires new and improved legislation. It has become necessary to combat this evil, and with this legislation South Africa also has to play its lawful role in this struggle. I would like to thank the Minister, the members and the secretariat of this committee for their hard work during the debate and during the committee sessions regarding this legislation. The New NP supports this legislation. I thank you.]

The MINISTER OF SAFETY AND SECURITY: Thank you, Chairperson. As I said in my initial input, we have obviously been here before. I want, once more, to appreciate the inputs that members made with respect to the Bill before the House. There are certain things that I would like to reiterate that are relevant to the Bill. Firstly, every piece of legislation we have promulgated in South Africa seeks to make the lives of our people that much better. We have no laws in South Africa that are intended to punish law- abiding citizens. This law also is not intended in any way to punish those who are law-abiding citizens. It is a law that is going to be directed at those who want to harm our democracy in the first instance, but also members of our population. Those are people who are not law-abiding and their aim in life is to ensure that our people do not benefit from the programmes we have for a better life. This Bill, when it becomes law, will deal only with those people who seek to hurt and not people who are law- abiding citizens.

Secondly, I would like to remind members of this House that in our own democratic practice, we do not want – and I want to repeat this – we do not want to stereotype people. Therefore, this Bill does not equate terrorism with Islam. This Bill does not stereotype people who come from the Middle East as being terrorists. All the Bill does is to create the necessary instruments for us to deal with terrorists wherever they come from. And as I said before, it is not intended to deal with people who are defined purely through a myopic understanding of what is happening in the world, but also through stereotyping. It is not the intention. In the end, when it becomes law, it will be part and parcel of the many pieces of legislation that we have and that are intended to create an atmosphere of safety and security for our people, as a contributor to the vision of government to establish in South Africa conditions of peace and stability.

We hope therefore that what we are going to do when we support this, when it goes through the National Assembly and is finally signed into law by our President, is to unite all the forces of peace and stability on our continent and elsewhere in the world against all those who want to undermine through terrorist activities the global effort to create a new world order where there will be peace and justice, democracy and freedom, where every person, every child, every woman and every man will live under conditions in which the economic situation of the country will be better, so that nobody starves, so that nobody is homeless and so that every person has access to medical attention and in which every person is educated and literate. It is when illiteracy abounds in any given circumstances that people are not going to understand their rights, the responsibilities that they have nor will they understand the necessity for them to embrace practices that in the end will contribute to the search for a better life for everybody.

I want to thank every person who used the energy and time to consider this Bill, make changes and make the good inputs that the Bill embodies. In the end we will have a Bill that is acceptable to the greater majority of our people. I appreciate therefore the work that was done by the select committee and by the portfolio committee in the National Assembly and the various role-players, including those who came to our public hearings to produce a Bill that is among the best in the world in dealing with the scourge of terrorism. [Applause.]

Debate concluded.

Bill, subject to proposed amendments, agreed to in accordance with section 75 of the Constitution.

MORAL REGENERATION – A CRITICAL TOOL FOR RECONSTRUCTING OUR NATION’S
  MORAL AND SPIRITUAL LIFE THROUGH EMPOWERMENT OF LOCAL COMMUNITIES


                      (Subject for Discussion)

USEKELA-NGQONGQOSHE WEZEMPILO: Sekela Mphathisihlalo, inhloso yale nkulumompikiswano ukufuna izindlela zokuhlomisa imiphakathi ngolwazi ngalo mkhankaso kazwelonke wokubuyiswa kwezimilo, i-moral regeneration. Siyayibonga-ke leNdlu ukuthi iluthathe lolu daba izoluletha la kulo Mkhandlu, ikakhulukazi njengoba kukhona nomphakathi, bazozizwela ngezabo izindlebe ukuthi nabo baneqhaza kulo mkhankaso. NgoFebhuwari nangoMeyi 2000, kwaba khona ama-workshop amabili kazwelonke. Kulama-workshop kwagcizelelwa ukubaluleka kokuthi lo mkhankaso utshale izimpande zawo emphakathini la abantu bekhona. Kwabe sekuba neziphakamiso- ke ezenziwa kulawo ma-workshop, okukhona phakathi kwazo iziphakamiso zokuthi kufanele kube khona ikomidi lokuxhumanisa, kuxoxiswane nabezindaba ukuthi nabo baphawule ngalo mkhankaso, nokuthi kuxoxiswane nalabo okungabambiswana nabo, nokuthi lo mkhankaso kwaziswe izwe lonke ngawo, nokuthi kube khona ingqungquthela kazwelonke ezohlanganisa ikakhulukazi labo abaqhamuka ezinhlanganweni zamasonto, nokuthi kuqeqeshwe labo abayoba ama-facilitators uma sekwenziwa ama-workshop nomphakathi. Zonke-ke lezo ziphakamiso kwakuyiziphakamiso ezihlose kona loku ukuthi lo mkhankaso wokubuyiswa kwezimilo kube umkhankaso ojulise izimpande zawo emphakathini.

Mhlawumbe omunye uyazibuza ukuthi kubaluleke ngani ukuthi sibe nalo mkhankaso eNingizimu Afrika na. (Translation of isiZulu paragraphs follows.)

[The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HEALTH: Deputy Chairperson, the aim of this debate is to seek ways of informing the public about this national campaign of moral regeneration. We would like to thank this House for taking this matter and bringing it to this Council, especially since members of the community are here to hear with their own ears that they also have a role to play in this campaign.

In February and May 2000, two national workshops were conducted. In these workshops, the need for this campaign to be rooted in the community, where the people are, was emphasised. A number of proposals were made in these workshops, among which were that there should be a co-ordinating committee, consultations with the media so that they may also comment on this campaign, consultations with other stakeholders, that this campaign must be advertised nationally, that there should be a national conference that includes faith-based communities and that those who are going to facilitate these workshops for the communities must first be trained. The aim of all these proposals was that this campaign for moral regeneration must have its roots in the community.

Perhaps somebody may ask himself or herself what the significance of having such a campaign is for South Africa.]

Our country is undergoing a period of transition from a highly oppressive system under apartheid and colonialism to one that is more democratic, equal and just. In February 2002 the Cabinet approved the Moral Regeneration Summit held at Waterkloof Air Base on 18 April 2002. This was seen by government as a necessary step in their efforts to rejuvenate the moral fibre of our society by building on the evolving values envisioned in the Constitution.

The specific objectives of the summit and the campaign are: To provide an opportunity to diagnose the past and present state of the moral crisis in South Africa; to reflect on strategies and measures to reconstruct the social values of the new democratic South Africa; to facilitate the evolution of the dynamic mass movement to help and support the government; civil society initiative in planning an effective programme of action for the moral renewal of our society to promote the national advocacy for the creation of an ethical, caring and corruption-free society to strengthen the foundations of our hard-won freedom and democracy by building a strong moral society based on a common code of ethics and behaviour. The national campaign is aimed at addressing such problems as the lack of respect for the sanctity of human life, the breakdown of parental control of children in families, the lack of respect for authority seen through the breaking of the law and total disregard for rules and regulations, crime and corruption, abuse of alcohol and drugs, the abuse of women and children and other vulnerable members of society, a lack of respect for other people and property and a general attitude of self-centeredness and not caring about other people. This is what this campaign is aimed at addressing and it builds on the values enshrined in our Bill of Rights and our Constitution. It is an important building block towards building a strong sense of nationhood in a manner that serves the general good and public interest.

Ukuze ngibonakalise lokhu engikhuluma ngakho, ukuthi ngiqonde ukuchazani na, ngiyacabanga ukuthi sonke njengoba sihlezi la, nomphakathi jikelele, sikhathazekile ngento esingayibiza ngokuthi ukungabikho kokuphepha. (Translation of isiZulu paragraph follows.)

[To demonstrate what I am talking about, I think that all of us here, and the community at large, are worried about the lack of security.]

I am sure this is an issue that is on the minds of many of people. It is on the minds of our children and our elders. Empowering our communities to take part in their own security is an important part of the Campaign for Moral Regeneration. Moral decay manifests itself in the general failure to act against wrongful behaviour by others. Moral regeneration on the other hand is about reporting crime and taking active steps to prevent it from taking place in the first place.

We recognise and acknowledge the role played by our communities in support of the police and other law enforcement agencies. They have participated in programmes such as Project Pimpa, in which they have reported wrongdoers to the police. We want them now to support the government programme in rooting out corruption in the social grant system. We know that the rising cost of the social grants are not only due to more people who are needing this help, but it is also due to ghost beneficiaries. They are the people who are abusing the system, who are collecting grants when they are not supposed to. People who help others cheat the system must think about the people they are depriving, those who are really in need.

In response to this problem, government has begun to take steps to identify the wrongdoers - the corrupt members of our communities. If they wait until they are caught they will face very heavy penalties. We urge our communities to work with government in support of the people in most need. Communities can participate by identifying such people and assisting those who qualify to register for the grants which government has made available.

Communities need to take an interest in knowing what is happening in their communities, especially at this time, when many people are faced with huge social problems. This should be done in the way that promotes the right to privacy and dignity. The moral regeneration campaign is about working together to restore self-esteem and self-pride among our people and thereby address the effects of many years of deprivation and dehumanisation. It is about restoring the moral fibre of our society and rebuilding our communities. It is about helping those in trouble with the law to find socially responsible alternatives to crime.

In our communities we can ensure that people feel valued, loved and respected. We must recognise, respect and develop what is in all of us and makes us human. The Moral Regeneration Campaign is also about taking steps to strengthen the severally weakening institution of the family, especially under the strain of HIV and Aids where we see growing numbers of child- headed families, where we see the growing problem of child prostitution and homelessness. We have seen the problems of children growing up without their fathers, living only with their mothers or grandmothers. Data from the 1996 census showed that 333 510 children had untraceable fathers, while nearly 99 000 households were headed by children, aged from 10 to 17 years. These figures would have increased by now, indicating the challenge we face. As already mentioned, the challenge of HIV and Aids has compounded the problem of child-headed households.

We must discuss the revival of social support networks and revive the notion of collective upbringing of children. We must promote the notion of “every child is my child” which forms the rock upon which communities were built. Our aim should be to promote a culture of zero tolerance towards the abuse and exploitation of children and to build a caring society, as envisaged in our Constitution.

As part of this campaign we are creating an environment of openness and dialogue through our centres of education. We are calling on all parents to reclaim their role in guiding their children and teaching them good social values. We call upon them to talk to their children, to love them and to care for them.

Bese futhi senza isicelo, ikakhulukazi kulabo abangabafundisi esithola ukuthi kunemibiko, uzwe ukuthi umfundisi uxhapahaza ngokocansi umntwana, efanele ukuthi loyo mntwana ngabe uyamvuikela. Kuyasidabukisa kakhulu –ke lokho. Ngakho-ke kubalulekile ukuthi, njengomphakathi, sonke sibambisane ekutheni othisha abatholakala benza lokhu umphakathi ukwazi ukuzivikela kubo nokuvikela abantwana.

Siyazi-ke ukuthi, uma sibuyela emuva, zazikhona izinhlelo nezinkambiso ezazivikela imiphakathi yethu. (Translation of isiZulu paragraphs follows.)

[We would also like to appeal to those who are educators, as we sometimes receive reports that an educator is sexually abusing a child, when he/she is supposed to be protecting that child. That saddens us greatly. It is imperative therefore that, as members of society, we must all co-operate so that communities may be able to protect themselves and their children from such educators.

We know, when we look back, that there were programmes that were aimed at protecting our communities.]

In support of this our country has embraced the concept and the spirit of Letsema and building a social contract to fight poverty, which we apply in the process of nation-building and social reconstruction. Later this month our government will be launching a nationwide campaign aimed at combating gender-based violence. The 16 Days of Activism to end violence against women and children will be launched on the International Day of No Violence Against Women, 25 November, and it ends on 1 December, International Aids Day.

It is important to know that the aim of this campaign is to totally eradicate gender-based violence so that every day is a day of no violence against women and children. Led by the President himself, this campaign is driven from the highest office of the land and it calls on all our people to stand up and be counted in the fight to end domestic, sexual, social and economic gender-based violence. It calls on all of us to say enough is enough, and to all of us individually and collectively to adopt a culture of zero tolerance. I have highlighted some of the issues, which I am sure our communities would be eager to have as part of their campaign issues. A survey conducted recently in South Africa shows the link between gender-based violence and HIV and Aids. According to this study women who suffer violence at the hands of their male partners are more likely to become infected with HIV. It says women who are beaten or dominated by their partners are nearly 50% more to likely to become infected with HIV compared with women who live in non-violent households. To fully understand how HIV, gender-based violence and inequality relate to each other in intimate relationships research has captured and compared a range of abusive experiences and explored connections between violence, inequality and risk behaviour.

Another area of deep concern relates to the high number of children between two and 12 years of age who have HIV. Estimated at around 5% this figure should raise alarm bells about the cause, which could most probably be related to sexual violence against children. Therefore we commend the focus by the Department of Home Affairs on the need to deal with the huge global problem of child pornography and human trafficking, and I hope the DA will help us on that campaign.

We call on parents and teachers to work together to ensure that children are protected from this problem. As parents we must teach ourselves how to work with information technology so that we can monitor our children to make sure that they are not exposed to harmful images and messages on the Internet. Of course, it may not be always be possible to police our children as parents have to go to work. The most effective solution is to speak openly to our children, guide them and trust that they will act responsibly.

I salute this House for bringing this debate to this House and I salute the chair of the Moral Regeneration Movement, hon Deputy President Jacob Zuma, who has led this campaign, and we as members of this House and the National Assembly have a very special role to make sure that we mobilise our communities, give them information and make sure that they have the tools that will help them ensure that we uproot corruption from our communities. I thank you very much.

Ms J MASILO: Deputy Chair of Chairs … ke tla bua Setswana gore le tle le nkutlwe sentle. [… I will speak Setswana so that you may understand me fully.] Chairperson, hon Minister in absentia, Deputy Minister, members of the provincial legislature and provincial speakers, MECs, executive mayors, councillors, members of the NCOP, amakhosi, ladies and gentlemen and all protocol observers, moral philosophers define morality as commonly accepted rules of conduct pertaining to patterns of behaviour as approved by a social group. These involve values and standards shared by the group as well.

The issue of moral regeneration is an endeavour to consolidate the transformation process taking place in South Africa. South African society underwent major changes during 1990s, beginning with the 1994 democratic elections. The transformation process was geared towards redefining the rule of political institutions in order to establish a nonracial and nonsexist dispensation based on non-discrimination and respect for human rights in order to lay the foundation for a society based on justice.

The ANC in particular was tirelessly engaged in bringing about true democracy in every sector, but often in our zest for changing all that we tend to overlook the individuals and their morality that gives life to those changes. Without people to uphold the morality of the country we are in danger of becoming a society who cares more for the system than we do for people, a technical society creating rules and regulations for good or ideal behaviour, but who do not feel morally obliged to actually practice that behaviour themselves. Already the ANC has begun to lay the groundwork for the moral regeneration process to begin. At its 51st conference in Stellenbosch, the ANC resolved to report the role of families in moral regeneration through support measures necessary for family revival.

It will be a process because we have a great deal to overcome. It is a well known fact that apartheid was more than just a denial of political, social, economic thrust of the majority of South Africans, but was supported by state- initiated violence, hatred and patriarchy, which permitted all institutions of society and government, destroying the fragile moral fibre of our society. Even more than the above, very many of our citizens, particularly those who were black and defenceless, found themselves victims of dehumanisation, violence and oppression, a migrant labour system that scared human society and broke up their core family, an education system that educated pupils for failure rather than success, racially based churches that failed to recognise people first before the colour of their skin and based their religious morals on a god being white. Perhaps it treated adult people as if they were children and severely undermined the dignity of all women, but especially the black women of this country. They were also victims of misinformation and propaganda, nondevelopment and underdevelopment.

Because of this legacy, the ANC-led government finds that one of its most fundamental principles for rebuilding our country and nation is to restore faith in our government and faith in ourselves and become a caring society. The ordinary lives of our communities, comrades and friends matter to us. We understand and have lived through the deeply personal sacrifices that our comrades had to endure in order to bring about liberation. We were then prepared to bite the bullet for our freedom in the land of our birth. Now that we are all free citizens, we want to make proud them and patriotic South Africans who value life and property with equal passion. One of the ways in which to bring about this passion for one’s country is to look at the quality of life that we have. Therefore it was important that we begin a massive endeavour towards moral regeneration, as we did at the Moral Regeneration Summit in 2002. Religious leaders can also provide traditional leadership by reminding us in case some of us have forgotten the difference between right and wrong both in our personal lives and for the sake of our country. Like in my own province, North West, we have begun to launch programmes for the Commission on Religious Affairs (CRA). I am happy to announce that Rev Moatshe from North West and I are in the ANC provincial executive committee that is running this programme. We are beginning to launch this programme through local municipalities. I think North West is leading in the moral regeneration process.

The Commission for Religious Affairs has some mission objectives, knitting together the moral fibre of the nation by promoting the objectives of moral regeneration, setting a platform for peace and reconciliation through prophetic leadership and ministry, and the upliftment of the quality of life of the nation so that all people may live in hope and with dignity, among other things.

When the NCOP Select Committee on Social Services recently passed the amendment to the Films and Publications Act, we were informed by the Films and Publications Board how extremely vulnerable children are to perverted adults and even other children, who abuse them in horrific child pornography videos and other electronic images. It is difficult for us to imagine that these children are very seriously injured and sometimes even maimed permanently just so that some adult can satisfy his or her perversion for sex with children, which is immoral. These images are not always make - believe or cartoon characters. These are real children belonging to real parents. They could be our own children.

This legislation made it illegal for anyone even to be in possession of child pornography. Ke ya leboga. [Thank you.] [Time expired.]

Ms S J LOE: Chairperson, hon members of the NCOP, honourable members of the public, I am very glad that the subject has come up for debate, because it is important that all of us in government understand what we mean, and mean what we say when we speak of moral regeneration. More importantly, we need to ensure that the public out there understands what we mean and believes what we said. Therein lies my problem. Before we can empower local communities we must earn their trust and respect as government. I do not believe this government provides leadership by example. Instead I think the public perceives morality in our country, and more specifically in government, to be degenerating rather than regenerating. [Interjections.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Chair on a point of order: We are here trying to build a nation. We are here trying to say each and every member has a contribution to make. We are here as legislators, not as government, and therefore we live by example.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: I will make a very quick ruling on the matter. I will request the hon member not to use this debate as a platform to make party-political statements against government.

Ms S J LOE: I intend to continue with the speech that I prepared on moral regeneration in our local communities. I think the public perceives morality in our country, and most specifically in government, to be degenerating rather than regenerating. That is my and my party’s view. The first prime example is that of the Deputy President, who is leading the moral regeneration campaign in our country, and is the very person on the front pages of the newspapers linked to what must be the biggest government corruption issue since the info scandal in the 1970s. [Interjections.] How credible can that be?

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Hon member, may I take a point of order! Hon Chief Whip of the Council.

USOSWEBHU WOMKHANDLU KAZWELONKE: Ngiyabonga, Sekela Mgcinisihlalo. Uma sibheka lapha kulolu hlelo lwale ngxoxo, lukhuluma ngokubuyiswa kwezimilo njengensiza yokwakha kabusha isizwe, ibuyise ukwakheka ngokomoya nangesimilo ngokuthi kuqiniswe imiphakathi. Bengithi, njengoba kuyabonakala ukuthi ilungu elihloniphekile elikhulumayo lapha alisizwisisanga kahle lesi sihloko, malinikezwe ithuba liyohlala phansi. Lizophinde libuye ngelinye ilanga lapho selisizwisie kahle. [Uhleko.] [Ihlombe.] (Translation of isiZulu paragraph follows.)

[The CHIEF WHIP OF THE NCOP: Thank you, Deputy Chairperson. When I look at the Order Paper, the subject for discussion is moral regeneration as a tool for reconstructing our nations’ moral and spiritual life through the empowerment of our communities. I would like to suggest that, since the hon member who is on the podium did not understand the topic, she must be given an opportunity to step down and come back another day when she has understood it. [Laughter.] [Applause.]]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Hon members, an hon member must be allowed to speak and express his or her views. I think that would be fair. My opinion is that we mustn’t be seen to be a somewhat allergic to things that we don’t want to hear, because political parties have a platform here to express their views on the matter. [Interjections.] Hon Dlulane, I am still making a statement and I will really expect a most exemplary behaviour, particularly from members of the ruling party in this respect. This is a very sensitive issue. Can we then proceed to say that the hon member must take the floor?

Ms S J LOE: Thank you, Chair. I heard that my time hasn’t been affected. Indeed senior members of the ANC also serving in this House have question marks hanging over their heads in respect of alleged involvement in Travelgate and having outside business interests that were not disclosed to the Registrar of Members’ Interests. The DA is disturbed that the Ethics Committee has delayed a meeting on this matter apparently due to his going home early on Fridays. [Interjections.]

THE DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Hon member, you can continue!

Ms S J LOE: I would just like to point out that in Gauteng 6% of shares in the company All Pay … [Interjections.] [Inaudible.]

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE COUNCIL: Chairperson, in terms of our Rules a member may rise on a point of order and I will request that member Sulliman who was rising on a point of order be recognised.

Ms S J LOE: The DA wasn’t recognised yesterday on several points of order.

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE COUNCIL: I don’t know whether we have a new presiding officer at the podium … but not now, maybe not until the second coming of Jesus Christ.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Hon members, can I take the point of order from hon Sulliman?

Mr M A SULLIMAN: Deputy Chair, the speaker on the podium accused some of the senior ANC members on this House of some wrongdoings. I would like the hon member to give us those names here. She must not mislead this august House. Thank you.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Hon members, I think I will make a ruling on this matter on the following basis: Hon Loe, the issue of the so- called Travelgate scandal and the issue about Deputy President Jacob Zuma are sub judice issues. As a learned hon member, I don’t think you have to be reminded that you cannot make any value-loaded public inference to or a public statement about those issues. And that is the ruling that I am making with the respect of this matter. Can you proceed?

Ms S J LOE: Yes, but I would just like to point out to the media that I will definitely give them my speech because I certainly won’t have time to finish it here.

Mr R J TAU: Chairperson, I just wanted to check as to whether if the hon member has the capacity to take a question, because I wanted to ask her a question.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Can you take a question?

Ms S J LOE: Chairperson, under the circumstances I don’t think I have the time. I will issue this speech to the media. There is no point in even trying to carry on. It is very hard to believe that this government … [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Hon members, I think it is fair to observe whether the hon member who is on the floor is going to contravene my earlier ruling. It would be very unfortunate if we were seen not to allow members to proceed with the debate because we don’t want to hear what she wants to say. I would really want to appeal for your indulgence on this issue and on that basis can I allow you to proceed with your speech.

Ms S J LOE: In Gauteng 6% of shares in the company All Pay, which makes the payments of social grants, belong to a trust in which the ANC has a direct interest. In the Western Cape the ANC’s Women’s League and the NNP Vroue- aksie, together hold more than 25% of All Pay shares. We have an ambassador who was found guilty of sexual harassment in a departmental inquiry. On appeal, our Minister of Foreign Affairs exonerated him, but has not provided any satisfactory explanation for her decision to do so. The impression left in the public mind is that this government condones sexual harassment.

In other spheres of government, matters don’t get any better. Government is perceived to be soft on people like John Block, MEC in the Northern Cape, who admitted his guilt on a number of corruption charges as a result of pressure from the DA, but still hasn’t faced criminal charges four years later. On top of that, despite legislation, reassuring people to the contrary, whistle-blowers are still treated like lowly informers and are not protected for their actions. The person who blew the whistle on Block lost his job and he is still battling to have justice done and his job back. What message does this send to local communities? I will release this to the media. Thank you. [Time expired.]

Mr M A MZIZI: Chairperson, Deputy Minister, colleagues, our democracy guarantees the citizens of South Africa the right to determine their own lives. This means that people are at liberty to control all aspects of their lives as long as this does not negatively interfere with the lives and wellbeing of other people around them. Their spiritual identity is therefore their responsibility. Government also does not have the right to negatively interfere with the lives and wellbeing of ordinary citizens. Therefore, we should be careful that we classify spiritual lives in a way that does not infringe upon the rights of an ordinary citizen.

The Constitution also guarantees every individual the right to freedom of religion and belief. This means that any particular spiritual programmes or activities initiated by government should not impose any religiosity or spirituality on any citizen of South Africa. Therefore, we need to clarify what our aims are with regard to a moral regeneration and its in-depth meaning in the South African context.

Moral regeneration has to be approached from a perspective that bears in mind the long history of deprivation and suffering by our people over many years. We need to understand that moral regeneration also means a sense of belonging, as well as a change in circumstances and quality of life at the heart of this, that is poverty alleviation and access to opportunity. Poverty and deprivation are conditions in which many of our people still find themselves today.

Poverty is exclusion from certain types of resources that only the rich have access to. Poverty is the shame and degradation of begging on a street and destitution and having no income or access to opportunities. Poverty is the shame and humiliation of being educated, while remaining unemployed for various reasons. These are the conditions that many of our people on the ground still find themselves in today, which is degrading for many.

We need to understand that in order for moral regeneration to have true meaning, especially for the poor, we need to address the causal factors of poverty and its many aspects and phases. This means focusing on why people commit acts of corruption, why they steal, why they break in, why they kill, why they abuse liquor and harmful substances. Many of these people live in frustration day in and day out. This is a syndrome that only an improved quality of live can cure. Our policies should be formulated in a manner that gives meaning to the lives of people that we should be serving. Moral regeneration should therefore be incorporated at all levels of government to remind us for all times that every piece of legislation that is passed should be done with the notion of moral regeneration in mind, the end results being the emancipation of our people from struggling and striving. Our meaning of moral regeneration is the need to focus on providing our people with opportunities in order to bring an end to their feeling alienated by being the poor in their own country.

Mr F ADAMS: Hon Chairperson, Deputy Chairperson of Chairs, hon Deputy Minister, members and colleagues, I would just like to find out from the DA if it is morally right that white colleagues eat in a restaurant and they leave their coloured colleagues to eat with the masses? Is that morally right? [Interjections.]

People who live in glass houses must not throw stones. Knowledge is like light, weightless and intangible. It can easily travel the world, enlightening the lives of people everywhere, yet millions of people still live in the darkness of poverty.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr M J Mahlangu): Hon member, could you please take your seat. Hon Krumbock, I hear your voice for the first time in four years.

Mr G R KRUMBOCK: Chairperson, on a point of order: We are having a debate about moral regeneration … [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr M J Mahlangu): Hon Sogoni, I have an obligation, not only a right, to listen to that man because I have given him the platform. How am I going to make a ruling if I have not listened to him?

Mr G R KRUMBOCK: Chair, we are having a debate about moral regeneration. Are we now at a stage where you are actually shouted down, whether you are at the podium or making a point of order? Can I have some protection, please? We are having a debate about moral regeneration. This is the second time today that the race card has been played quite unnecessarily, and I want to know whether that is actually relevant to this debate?

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr M J Mahlangu): Hon member, could you take a seat? The order is not sustained. Can you proceed, hon member. Mr E M SOGONI: Chairperson, a point of order was raised earlier about the member who is not properly dressed. You did not want to call a ruling on that, and that member is really not respecting this House. He cannot come with what we call “a rolled shirt.” The rules are very clear about people who are dressed like this. I don’t think that he is supposed to address the House like that.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr M J Mahlangu): Hon members, I must really make the following observation, we must not degenerate. I think, hon Chairperson of Committees, hon Oliphant made a ruling on that matter. She made a ruling to say that that issue belongs with the whips. Unless there is a very succinct expression within our Rules that determines the dress code and what is to be done by a presiding officer, officer presiding to sanction that particular provision of the Rules. Could we really allow the debate to flow? Can you proceed, hon Adams.

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE COUNCIL: [Inaudible.] … sorry … [Inaudible.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr M J Mahlangu): There is no such thing, Chief Whip, as “sorry” in this House. Can I take the point of order from hon Robertson?

Mr M O ROBERTSON: Chairperson, on a Point of Order: I just think that is very rich coming from that hon Krumbock, when he is never in the House.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr M J Mahlangu): Hon member, can you proceed with your speech?

Mr F ADAMS: I want the DA to listen. Knowledge is like light, weightless and intangible. It can easily travel the world, enlightening the lives of people everywhere, yet millions of people still live in the darkness of poverty. Since 1994 there has been a remarkable growth in the interest in knowledge-based aid within development, and co-operation agencies through the government. Most of these agencies have launched projects that seek to make the world better, grounded in the knowledge that they already possess. [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr M J Mahlangu): Hon Adams, can I take the point of order from hon Terblanche.

Ms J F TERBLANCHE: Chairperson, on a Point of Order: I put my stopwatch on when he started to speak. His time has expired. You stopped our members from speaking. Then you must stop him from speaking now as well. My stopwatch is going and he went over four minutes, so he must go and sit down.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Hon Chief Whip, I really need your guidance. I think this is taking toll on me. I can’t hear anybody. Everybody is calling for points of order, when we should really proceed with this debate. I really need your intervention. Indeed be decisive.

I mean, we are public representatives. Millions of people are expecting leadership from us, whether we differ or disagree, and that is very important. But if we now degenerate to a point where we cannot even hear one other, I don’t think that is auguring well for this august House. I want your intervention, Chief Whip.

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE COUNCIL: Thank you very much Chairperson. This debate will continue. It will continue up until the end, when the Deputy Minister responds. One wants to make a correction to the ruling, which the hon Chair of Committees made with regard to the seating arrangement of permanent delegates in their provincially demarcated sections. It was not with regard to the issue which was raised earlier, that we have a proper capturing of it.

I will move now that we suspend all points of order up until the Deputy Minister has responded to the debate.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Hon member, please proceed.

Mr F ADAMS: At the same time there has also been a growth in emphasis on disseminating this knowledge more effectively to other agencies, civil society and to the millions of South Africans who are the stated beneficiaries of the whole intertwined aid and development projects. Equally, there has been a revisiting of the old notion that the poor in large part, because of the lack of appropriate knowledge, need an important new set of tools in the dissemination of this knowledge at its most extreme. This account appears to have the simplistic view that better knowledge makes for better policies and that better policies lead to better lives, which is what the ANC does.

Knowledge for development is increasingly seen as a partial answer to the challenges posed to us, and the knowledge of … [Time expired.] Rev E ADOLPH: Thank you, hon Chair and hon members. I can speak for hours on this topic of moral regeneration, but I am allowed a couple of minutes as a theologian. That is why I would refrain from diverging from the details. As ID we believe that we speak the truth with authority. And going a bit further than that, we are also living and living the truth. There are many disorders in and distortions of morality in South Africa. I don’t need to go into detail, everyone is aware of how we as an immoral society are suffering due to many circumstances. We are grateful for the government that initiated the Moral Regeneration Movement to bring people of all races together in South Africa.

We are also in the final stage of finalising a charter for the Moral Regeneration Movement. I want to summarise my speech very quickly. I just want to show you something. Moral regeneration means “I love you unconditionally” irrespective of your creed, colour or your background. You cannot legitimise according to each person’s attitude. You must love one another and start at home. Generosity starts at home. That is why I am calling on each and every member in this House to start to respect yourself for who you are and what God or your Creator created you for.

The challenge is for us to be fathers, by doing the best of our ability with hearts full of love, to be a community leader, credible, honest and live up to the moral values which is instilled by your Creator. My challenge to each and everyone is not to be overwhelmed by debates and don’t be judgmental. Instead love one another unconditionally. I love you all. I thank you. [Applause.]

Rev P MOATSHE: Chairperson and hon members, allow me to say a few things. You know we have a history in this country and we cannot debate moral regeneration without keeping that background in my mind, otherwise we are lost. You know there was a time when the liberators of this country were attacked and blackmailed and smeared while they were not in the country. Some of them were in jail. Some of them were in exile, but the truth will remain the truth and will emerge above any doubt and rise above any lies.

It is the ANC that has convinced the entire world, and that South Africa is known on the map of the globe. It is the ANC that has liberated us all, white and black. [Applause.] It is the ANC that has created this opportunity for us to look back and reflect on the moral regeneration – values - that we all need. We have a future to chart together; we have a future that we have to prepare together, white and black. I think I must measure what is happening.

The then National Party went all out with its smear campaigns and blackmailing by saying that the ANC is the terrorists, the killers, but today the National Party has joined the ANC. [Applause.] This underlines what is in the Gospel of Jesus Christ. The Gospel says: A day shall come when the lion and the lamb shall lie together. The day shall come when the baby and the serpent shall be together. The ANC and the NNP have underlined those scriptural verses and if that is the measurement, somebody might be blind. If somebody does not look back into our history where, we come from, who can attack the President of this country. Who can dare to attack the President of this country, who is a leader for Africa? The hopes of Africa are in South Africa. He is a leader who has convinced the entire world that he enjoys great respect. If you go to America and try to attack the President of this country, and attack the ANC, they might think: Who is this stupid person? What do you have to say instead?

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Hon Moatshe, there is a point of order from the Chief Whip. The CHIEF WHIP OF THE COUNCIL: Chairperson, I am of the view that we need to keep up the dignity and integrity of this House, hence the reading of newspapers, the use of computers, like Ms Loe does, should not be allowed. If she cannot stop, we propose that she be removed from the Chamber. [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Hon Loe, I want to assume that you fully understand that you are not supposed to use a computer during the course of the proceedings of this House. I really want to tell you upfront to stop doing it or I’ll have to make a stricter ruling, and that would be most regrettable. Hon member, I hope you will close your computer now.

Rev P MOATSHE: Chairperson, the Pharisees were attacking Jesus and Jesus said that they had to be forgiven because of their ignorance. These kinds of attacks by the DA are uncalled for. We are busy here with a very serious issue that concerns the people of South Africa. We have to look at the morals of this country, where apartheid has dented and changed the morals of the Africans. The African people are people with a high sense of moral value and because of our past, we want to take another look at these issues and address the issues of moral regeneration, not to further degenerate by having petty arguments and trying to attack without any sense. It is good that all the parties have now united around what we understand as being good values to address the problems of South Africa. We have no time to argue about things that are derailing us. This becomes a challenge to us. If you develop a sick mind, when you talk you are infectious. You need medication to heal you. It is extremely important, if you say to your child you are stupid and he accepts that he is stupid, then you are the stupid one. You are imprinting that image onto the mind of your child. A clever parent will say – even if his child is doing wrong – that his or her child is clever. The child should not do one, two, or three because the child is clever. The mindset must chart a future for what we are standing here to achieve.

What has happened today has had totally deviate from what I have prepared. It is important for me to address and to show that the DA will have to learn. I cannot understand why these people are so blind. Are they unable to read the history of this country? We took over in 1994. The ANC has introduced democracy. That is why every Tom, Dick or Harry is able to say just anything, even vulgar things against our leaders. It is disrespectful and immoral. In African culture one respects one’s seniors and then you will be blessed. Even the Bible tells us: Respect your father and your mother so that your days shall be multiplied. [Time expired.]

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HEALTH: Deputy Chairperson, hon members, when I introduced this discussion, I commended this House for bringing here this very important topic for discussion. I again want to congratulate the leadership of the NCOP for organising this debate and discussion. Fortunately, the majority of the members in this House understood what their subject of discussion was. They understood that we had to make a contribution to mobilising our local communities and empower them, so that they too can participate in this campaign of moral regeneration.

I will therefore respond to the constructive things that members have said. Hon Masilo, indeed, you referred to the effect of the past. I think, as we move forward as a nation, we cannot ignore the dehumanisation of our people under apartheid. I know that when I said that there was rumbling in the DA corner. We are sorry, but we can never ignore what the past did. As we move forward, we must keep that in mind. The issue of the erosion of our social fabric is something that each and every one of us who comes from the majority in this country knows about at first hand. This is like when the males were taken away from their communities and treated as children, when they were housed in single-sex hostels.

Indeed, we have risen to the challenge. You have come to this discussion having thought about it and having prepared. You did not come here wanting to play to the gallery, as I saw the DA doing. You made contributions, which I am sure the people heard. And, fortunately, our people know who is right and who is wrong. When the DA said that we must earn the credibility and trust of our people, I don’t know whether they were here in April or not, when the majority of our people not only re-elected the ANC, but did so overwhelmingly, almost 70%. What more does the DA want? They talk about earning the credibility and trust of our people. If the people did not trust the ANC, they would not have voted for it. They would not have voted it back into power. Can you explain to us, in terms of your logic, how this could have happened if we had to still fight for the credibility and the trust of our people?

Hon Adams, the issue raised, that the DA did not like to hear about racism that still continues in our country, is a very important issue in this discussion. It is an important issue in this way. If our people in the community, who are observing, observe that white members of the DA sit in a corner on their own, what does that do to them? Do they understand that this is the DA that has transformed and that is part of the processes that we are building? It does not. When they see members of the DA eat on their own, to them it is what happened in the past. It is repeating itself. What does it do to their moral thinking? They say: Those people have not changed.

Hon Moatshe, I want to congratulate you, with hon Masilo, on the leadership that you are showing in the North West. As you mentioned, you have been elected to the leadership of the Commission on Religious Affairs. This is what we value and support when members of Parliament behave in the way that you are doing. I don’t know about any members of the public who would follow the DA after this afternoon’s performance. There is one thing that I want to say before I end. What has just been proved in this House by the hon member Loe – I don’t know if I can still call you an hon member – and to the people who are listening, is that she does not understand the rule of law. She is supposed to understand this. The rule of law that says that you are innocent until found guilty. Our justice system does not depend on newspapers. I see that she loves the newspapers. The other thing that we need to teach her – it looks as if she needs to be taught about democracy – is that what she has not said in this House, and what has not been recorded in this House, cannot be regarded as a record of this House. It does not make sense to say that you would take this to the newspapers. It is not part of the record of the proceedings of this House. It is just your letter that you write to the press. Many of them rely so much on the press. [Applause.]

I just to want to return to the seriousness of this debate. It is just unfortunate that we allowed the DA to disturb what was otherwise a very important debate. I want to congratulate those members of the House who were serious, and that is the majority in this House. They know that we are dealing with matters that need the participation of all our people. In the end it is the public that will judge whether the DA, which remains steeped in the past - the DA which wants to take us back to the past - is the party to vote for. With those words, thank you very much and I am sure that members of the community who have been listening to you are going to go home and respond to your call, that all of us … Ms D ROBINSON: On a Point of Order, Chair: Could I just correct something?

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: What do you want to correct?

Ms D ROBINSON: The level of the debate has completely degenerated …

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: You are out of order. Can you please take your seat.

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HEALTH: I just want to repeat to this House that you need to educate those members of the DA who do not understand procedure, who don’t understand democracy and who don’t understand what we are trying to build in this country. Thank you. Let us go forward. [Applause.]

Debate concluded.

The Council adjourned at 18:12. ____

            ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS



                     WEDNESDAY, 3 NOVEMBER 2004

ANNOUNCEMENTS

National Council of Provinces

1. Referrals to committees of papers tabled:

 The following papers have been tabled and are now referred to the
 relevant committees as mentioned below:


 (1)    The following papers are referred to the Select Committee on
     Finance:


     (a)     Report and Financial Statements of Vote 8 - National
          Treasury for 2003-2004, including the Report of the Auditor-
          General on the Financial Statements of Vote 8 for 2003-2004
          [RP 141-2004].

     (b)     Report and Financial Statements of the Corporation for
          Public Deposits for 2003-2004, including the Report of the
          Independent Auditors on the Financial Statements for 2003-
          2004.

     (c)     Report and Financial Statements of Vote 13 - Statistics
          South Africa for 2003-2004, including the Report of the
          Auditor-General on the Financial Statements of Vote 13 for
          2003-2004 [RP 163-2004].

     (d)     Report and Financial Statements of the South African
          Reserve Bank for 2003-2004, including the Report of the
          Independent Auditors on the Financial Statements for 2002-
          2004.

     (e)     Report and Financial Statements of the Financial
          Intelligence Centre for 2003-2004, including the Report of the
          Auditor-General on the Financial Statements for 2003-2004 [RP
          189-2004].

     (f)     Report and Financial Statements of the Public Investments
          Commissioners for 2003-2004, including the Report of the
          Auditor-General on the Financial Statements for 2003-2004 [RP
          99-2004].

     (g)     Annual Economic Report of the South African Reserve Bank
          for 2004.

     (h)     The Address of the Governor of the South African Reserve
          Bank on 24 August 2004.


 (2)    The following papers are referred to the Select Committee on
     Economic and Foreign Affairs:


     (a)     Report and Financial Statements of Vote 3 - Department of
          Foreign Affairs for 2003-2004, including the Report of the
          Auditor-General on the Financial Statements of Vote 3 for 2003-
          2004 [RP 203-2004].

     (b)     Report and Financial Statements of Electricity
          Distribution Industry Holdings (Proprietary) Limited for 2003-
          2004, including the Report of the Auditor-General on the
          Financial Statements for 2003-2004.

     (c)     Report and Financial Statements of Vote 31 - Department of
          Minerals and Energy for 2003-2004, including the Report of the
          Auditor-General on the Financial Statements for 2003-2004 [RP
          85-2004].

     (d)     Report and Financial Statements of the Central Energy Fund
          (CEF) Group of Companies for 2003-2004, including the Reports
          of the Auditor-General and the Independent Auditors on the
          Financial Statements for 2003-2004 [RP 132-2004].

     (e)     Report and Financial Statements of the South African
          Diamond Board (SADB) for 2003-2004, including the Report of
          the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements for 2003-2004
          [RP 194-2004].

     (f)     Report and Financial Statements of the South African
          Quality Institute for 2003-2004, including the Report of the
          Independent Auditors on the Financial Statements for 2003-
          2004.

     (g)     Report and Financial Statements of the International Trade
          Administration Commission of South Africa for 2003-2004,
          including the Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial
          Statements for 2003-2004 [RP 188-2004].

     (h)     Report and Financial Statements of the National
          Empowerment Fund for 2003-2004, including the Report of the
          Independent Auditors on the Financial Statements 2003-2004.

     (i)     Report and Financial Statements of the Support Programme
          for Industrial Innovation (SPII) for 2003-2004, including the
          Report of the Independent Auditors on the Financial Statements
          2003-2004.

     (j)     Annual Report of the Council for the Non-Proliferation of
          Weapons of Mass Destruction for 2002-2003.

     (k)     Report and Financial Statements of the Micro Finance
          Regulatory Council (MFRC) for the year ended 31 December 2003.


 (3)    The following paper is referred to the Select Committee on
     Economic and Foreign Affairs and the Joint Monitoring Committee on
     the Improvement of the Quality of Life and Status of Women:

     Report and Financial Statements of Technology for Women in
     Business (TWIB) for 2003-2004.


 (4)    The following paper is referred to the Select Committee on
     Economic and Foreign Affairs and the Select Committee on Local
     Government and Administration:

     Annual Review of the Community Public Private Partnership
     Programme for 2003-2004.


 (5)    The following papers are referred to the Select Committee on
     Health:


     (a)     Report and Financial Statements of Vote 16 - Department of
          Health for 2003-2004, including the Report of the Auditor-
          General on the Financial Statements of Vote 16 for 2003-2004
          [RP 179-2000].

     (b)     Report and Financial Statements of the Council for Medical
          Schemes for 2003-2004, including the Report of the Auditor-
          General on the Financial Statements for 2003-2004 [RP 135-
          2004].


 (6)    The following papers are referred to the Select Committee on
     Local Government and Administration:


     (a)     Report and Financial Statements of Vote 5 - Department of
          Provincial and Local Government for 2003-2004, including the
          Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements of
          Vote 5 for 2003-2004 [RP 193-2004].

     (b)     Report and Financial Statements of the South African Local
          Government Association (SALGA) for 2003-2004, including the
          Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements for
          2003-2004.

     (c)     Report and Financial Statements of the Municipal
          Demarcation Board for 2003-2004, including the Report of the
          Auditor-General on the Financial Statements for 2003-2004 [RP
          165-2004].

     (d)     Report and Financial Statements of the National House of
          Traditional Leaders for 2003-2004.

     (e)     Report and Financial Statements of the Commission for the
          Promotion and Protection of the Rights of Cultural, Religious
          and Linguistic Communities for 2003-2004, including the Report
          of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements for 2003-
          2004 [RP 167-2004].

     (f)     Report and Financial Statements of the South African
          Management Development Institute (SAMDI) for 2003-2004,
          including the Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial
          Statements for 2003-2004 [RP 127-2004].

     (g)     Report of the Public Service Commission on the
          Investigation into the Appointment of Professional Cubans in
          the South African Public Service.


 (7)    The following papers are referred to the Select Committee on
     Public Services:


     (a)     Report and Financial Statements of the South African
          National Roads Agency Limited (SANRAL) for 2003-2004,
          including the Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial
          Statements for 2003-2004 [RP 157-2004].

     (b)     Report and Financial Statements of the Air Traffic and
          Navigation Services Company Limited for 2003-2004, including
          the Report of the Independent Auditors on the Financial
          Statements for 2003-2004.

     (c)     Report and Financial Statements of the Airports Company
          South Africa Limited (ACSA) for 2003-2004, including the
          Report of the Independent Auditors on the Financial Statements
          for 2003-2004.

     (d)     Report and Financial Statements of the Urban Transport
          Fund (UTF) for 2003-2004, including the Report of the Auditor-
          General on the Financial Statements for 2003-2004 [RP 191-
          2004].

     (e)     Report and Financial Statements of the Cross-Border Road
          Transport Agency for 2002-2003, including the Report of the
          Auditor-General on the Financial Statements for 2002-2003 [RP
          27-2004].

     (f)     Report and Financial Statements of the Airports Company
          South Africa and Air Navigation Services Company Ltd for 2003-
          2004.

     (g)     Report and Financial Statements of the Independent
          Development Trust (IDT) for 2003-2004, including the Report of
          the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements for 2003-2004
          [RP 86-2004].

     (h)     Report and Financial Statements of Vote 29 - Department of
          Housing for 2003-2004, including the Report of the Auditor-
          General on the Financial Statements of Vote 29 for 2003-2004
          [RP 125-2004].

     (i)     Report and Financial Statements of the Rural Housing Loan
          Fund (RHLF) for 2003-2004, including the Report of the
          Independent Auditors on the Financial Statements for 2003-
          2004.

     (j)     Report and Financial Statements of Servcon Housing
          Solutions (Proprietary) Limited for 2003-2004, including the
          Report of the Independent Auditors on the Financial Statements
          for 2003-2004.

     (k)     Report and Financial Statements of Thubelisha Homes for
          2003-2004, including the Report of the Independent Auditors on
          the Financial Statements for 2002-2003.

     (l)     Report and Financial Statements of the Social Housing
          Foundation for 2003-2004, including the Report of the
          Independent Auditors on the Financial Statements for 2003-
          2004.

     (m)     Report and Financial Statements of the National Housing
          Finance Corporation Limited for 2003-2004, including the
          Report of the Independent Auditors on the Financial Statements
          for 2003-2004.

     (n)     Report and Financial Statements of the National Urban and
          Reconstruction Agency (NURCHA) for 2003-2004.

     (o)     Report and Financial Statements of Vote 4 - Department of
          Home Affairs for 2003-2004, including the Report of the
          Auditor-General on the Financial Statements of Vote 4 for 2003-
          2004 [RP 175-2004].


 (8)    The following papers are referred to the Select Committee on
     Land and Environmental Affairs:


     (a)     Report and Financial Statements of the Water Research
          Commission for 2003-2004, including the Report of the Auditor-
          General on the Financial Statements for 2003-2004 [RP 143-
          2004].

     (b)     Report and Financial Statements of Vote 26 - Department of
          Agriculture for 2003-2004, including the Report of the Auditor-
          General on the Financial Statements of Vote 26 for 2003-2004
          [RP 186-2004].

     (c)     Report and Financial Statements of Vote 30 - Department of
          Land Affairs for 2003-2004, including the Report of the
          Auditor-General on the Financial Statements of Vote 30 for
          2003-2004 [RP 168-2004].

     (d)     Government Notice No 1012 published in Government Gazette
          No 26731 dated 27 August 2004: Notice of list of protected
          tree species under the National Forests Act, 1998 (Act No 84
          of 1998).

     (e)     Government Notice No 1031 published in Government Gazette
          No 26749 dated 3 September 2004: Restrictions on the use of
          water for agricultural use and for domestic and industrial use
          from the Gamtoos River Government Water Scheme (The Kouga Dam
          and the Gamtoos Canal) in the Fish-to-Tsitsikamma Water
          Management Area (WMA 15) in the Eastern Cape Province, in
          terms of the National Water Act, 1998 (Act No 36 of 1998).

     (f)     Government Notice No 1042 published in Government Gazette
          No 26752 dated 10 September 2004: Correction notice in respect
          of lists of protected tree species in terms of the National
          Forests Act, 1998 (Act No 84 of 1998).

     (g)     Government Notice No 1099 published in Government Gazette
          No 26807 dated 17 September 2004: Notice to protect a tree in
          terms of section 12 of the National Forests Act, 1998 (Act No
          84 of 1998).

     (h)     Government Notice No 1098 published in Government Gazette
          No 26799 dated 23 September 2004: Water Research Fund: Rates
          and Charges in terms of the Water Research Act, 1971 (Act No
          34 of 1971).

     (i)     Government Notice No 1103 published in Government Gazette
          No 26799 dated 23 September 2004: Restrictions on the use of
          surface water for agricultural purposes and urban and
          industrial purposes from any resource in the catchment of the
          Loskop Dam (Secondary Catchment B1 and B2) in terms of the
          National Water Act, 1998 (Act No 36 of 1998).

     (j)     Government Notice No 1104 published in Government Gazette
          No 26799 dated 23 September 2004: Establishment of the Upper
          Komati River Water User Association, Magisterial District of
          Belfast and Carolina, Mpumalanga Province, Water Management
          Area Number 5 in terms of the National Water Act, 1998 (Act No
          36 of 1998).

     (k)     Government Notice No 1105 published in Government Gazette
          No 26799 dated 23 September 2004: Establishment of the Lower
          Modder River/Krugersdrift Water User Association, Districts of
          Boshof, Bloemfontein, Petrusberg and Jacobsdal, Province of
          the Free State, Water Management Area Number 13 in terms of
          the National Water Act, 1998 (Act No 36 of 1998).


 (9)    The following papers are referred to the Select Committee on
     Labour and Public Enterprises:


     (a)     Report and Financial Statements of Vote 9 - Department of
          Public Enterprises for 2003-2004, including the Report of the
          Auditor-General on the Financial Statements of Vote 9 for 2003-
          2004 [RP 143-2004].

     (b)     Report and Financial Statements of National Economic
          Development and Labour Council for 2003-2004, including the
          Report of the Independent Auditors on the Financial Statements
          for 2003-2004.

     (c)     Report and Financial Statements for Vote 27 - Department
          of Communications for 2003-2004, including the Report of the
          Auditor-General on the Financial Statements of Vote 27 for
          2003-2004.

     (d)     Report and Financial Statements of the International
          Marketing Council for 2003-2004, including the Report of the
          Auditor-General on the Financial Statements for 2003-2004 [RP
          174-2004].


 (10)   The following papers are referred to the Select Committee on
     Security and Constitutional Affairs:


     (a)     Report and Financial Statements of Vote 24 - Department of
          Justice and Constitutional Development for 2003-2004,
          including the Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial
          Statements of Vote 24 for 2003-2004 [RP 182-2004].

     (b)     Report and Financial Statements of the Special
          Investigating Unit (SIU) for 2003-2004, including the Report
          of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements for 2003-
          2004 [RP 128-2004].

     (c)     Report and Financial Statements of Vote 21 - Department of
          Correctional Services for 2003-2004, including the Report of
          the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements of Vote 21 for
          2003-2004 [RP 192-2004].

     (d)     Government Notice No R.889 published in Government Gazette
          No 26603 dated 10 July 2004: Designation of a body for the
          purpose of section 212(4)(a) and (8) of the Criminal Procedure
          Act, 1977 (Act No 51 of 1977).


 (11)   The following papers are referred to the Select Committee on
     Education and Recreation:


     (a)     Report and Financial Statements of Vote 20 - Department of
          Sport and Recreation for 2003-2004, including the Report of
          the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements of Vote 20 for
          2003-2004.

     (b)     Report and Financial Statements of the South African
          Sports Commission for 2003-2004, including the Report of the
          Auditor-General on the Financial Statements for 2003-2004.

     (c)     Report and Financial Statements of Vote 14 - Department of
          Arts and Culture for 2003-2004, including the Report of the
          Auditor-General on the Financial Statements of Vote 14 for
          2003-2004.

     (d)     Report and Financial Statements of the Council on Higher
          Education for 2003-2004, including the Report of the Auditor-
          General on the Financial Statements for 2003-2004.

     (e)     Government Notice No 983 published in Government Gazette
          No 26692 dated 18 August 2004: Appointment of a replacement to
          serve as a member of the South African Qualifications
          Authority (SAQA) in terms of section 4(4) of the South African
          Qualifications Authority Act, 1995 (Act No 58 of 1995).

     (f)     Government Notice No 285 published in Government Gazette
          No 26119 dated 3 March 2004: Appointment of members to serve
          on the proposed management structures with the aim of
          developing additional subjects to be included in the National
          Curriculum Statement Grades 10-12 (General) in terms of the
          National Education Policy Act, 1996 (Act No 27 of 1996) and
          the South African Schools Act, 1996 (Act No 84 of 1996).

     (g)     Government Notice No 995 published in Government Gazette
          No 26711 dated 23 August 2004: Amendment to the names of
          members to serve on the Ministerial Project Committee and
          Associated Subject Working Groups for the development of
          subject statements to be included in the National Curriculum
          Statement Grades 10-12 (General) in terms of the National
          Education Policy Act, 1996 (Act No 27 of 1996).

     (h)     Government Notice No 1052 published in Government Gazette
          No 26767 dated 8 September 2004: Appointment of members to
          serve on the proposed subject working groups in terms of the
          National Education Policy Act, 1996 (Act No 27 of 1996) and
          the South African Schools Act, 1996 (Act No 84 of 1996).

      (i)     Government Notice No 1080 published in GovernmentGazette
          No 26788 dated 15 September 2004: The development of a
          National Curriculum Statement Grades 10-12 (General) -
          Second phase: Call for written submissions from the
          Stakeholder bodies and members of the public in terms of the
          National Education Policy Act, 1996 (Act No 27 of 1996).

     (j)     Government Notice No 981 published in Government Gazette
          No 26690 dated 18 August 2004: Extension of the term of office
          of the current members serving on the Second South African
          Qualifications Authority for the period 26 April 2004 until 26
          October 2004 in terms of the South African Qualifications
          Authority Act, 1995 (Act No 58 of 1995).

     (k)     Government Notice No 982 published in Government Gazette
          No 26691 dated 18 August 2004: Calling for nomination of
          persons to serve as members on the Third South African
          Qualifications Authority for the period 27 October 2004 until
          26 October 2007 in terms of the South African Qualifications
          Authority Act, 1995 (Act No 58 of 1995).

     (l)     Government Notice No 820 published in Government Gazette
          No 26560 dated 8 July 2004: National Policy regarding further
          Education and Training programmes: Approval of Additional
          Languages as National Education Policy to be listed in the
          National Curriculum Statement Grades 10-12 (General) in terms
          of the National Education Policy Act, 1996 (Act No 27 of 1996)
          and the South African Schools Act, 1996 (Act No 84 of 1996).

     (m)     Government Notice No 1081 published in Government Gazette
          No 26789 dated 17 September 2004: National Policy regarding
          further Education and Training programmes: Approval of the
          draft policy document, National Policy on the Conduct,
          Administration and Management of the Assessment of the Senior
          Certificate as National Education Policy in terms of the
          National Education Policy Act, 1996 (Act No 27 of 1996) and
          the South African Schools Act, 1996 (Act No 84 of 1996).


 (12)   The following paper is referred to the Select Committee on
     Security and Constitutional Affairs and the Joint Standing
     Committee on Defence:

     The President of the Republic submitted a letter dated 28
     September 2004 to the Chairperson of the National Council of
     Provinces informing Members of the Council of the employment of
     the South African National Defence Force in the Democratic
     Republic of Burundi.


 (13)   The following paper is referred to the Select Committee on
     Social Services:

     Report and Financial Statements of Vote 19 - Department of Social
     Development for 2003-2004, including the Report of the Auditor-
     General on the Financial Statements of Vote 19 for 2003-2004 [RP
     198-2004].


                      THURSDAY, 4 NOVEMBER 2004

ANNOUNCEMENTS

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces

1. Bill passed by Houses - to be submitted to President for assent

 (1)    Bill passed by National Council of Provinces on 4 November 2004:


     (i)     Traditional Health Practitioners Bill [B 66B - 2003]
          (National Assembly - sec 76)

1. Classification of Bills by Joint Tagging Mechanism:

 (1)    The Joint Tagging Mechanism (JTM) on 4 November 2004 in terms of
     Joint Rule 160(3), classified the following Bill as a section 75
     Bill:


     (i)     National Small Business Amendment Bill [B 23 - 2004]
          (National Assembly - sec 75)


 (2)    The Joint Tagging Mechanism (JTM) on 4 November 2004 in terms of
     Joint Rule 161, classified the following Bill as a money Bill:


     (i)     Adjustments Appropriation Bill [B 21 - 2004] (National
          Assembly - sec 77)

COMMITTEE REPORTS

National Council of Provinces

CREDA PLEASE INSERT REPORT - Insert 2ATC1104e